MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1341 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) you have got to see this! by Sorana Shadowcat 2) Re: Various stuff by "Dawn Patrick" 3) Re: Enya and Other Stuff by RPierce137-+AT+-aol.com 4) Re: you have got to see this! by Christie Maas 5) Re: Enya and Other Stuff by Mark Cook & Tracy Hansel 6) Re: Enya and Other Stuff by LCM46-+AT+-aol.com 7) Re: Enya and Other Stuff by Tensen 8) Vanyel's Name by Cristilyn Lawton 9) Re: Enya and Other Stuff by Heather Shannon 10) Re: Enya and Other Stuff by mdnewton-+AT+-unccvx.uncc.edu 11) Re: Calling all bards by georg-+AT+-swbell.net 12) Re: *Gwena* by "Traci Harriman" 13) Misty Fluff by dprono-+AT+-planet.eon.net 14) Pronounciation by "Robin Lao" 15) Re: Enya and Other Stuff by AERDEN-+AT+-delphi.com 16) Re: Owlflight by AERDEN-+AT+-delphi.com 17) No talented people by larsen 18) Re: Owlflight by Remmington Crothian 19) Re: Several bits... by adunster-+AT+-ritzville.org (Anna Dunster) 20) stuff by Eos419-+AT+-aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:07:45 -0700 From: Sorana Shadowcat To: dblswede-+AT+-televar.com, mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: you have got to see this! Message-ID: <34274091.3C8A-+AT+-olypen.com> Heyla Ericka! You won't believe what happened to me on my list today! Take a lok at this! GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu wrote: > >Therefore, as the Avatar of the Goddess of > >Nomenclature, I hereby officially Name and recognize Dax as the > >Goddess of Unicorns and Elves (sauf Kory). With my felicitations > >I offer a gift of an spiraled horn, carved from living sea-opal, > >that will serve as the focus for Your Attribute (cf. Lord of Light > >by Zelazny). > > The Lady of the Unicorns stands and takes the spiraled horn > admiringly and then steps up the next step from Lady to Goddess. > "Thank you, thank you, I shall wield it with grace and eternal > vigilence to ward off the poisonous wounds of the world and stab > those who would purposely foul the sweet waters of our list" She > inclines her head to the Avatar. > ***************** > >Priestess > Ah, yes and now to the heart of my fluff! > > *A heraldic voice cries* "Herald-trainee Sorana Shadowcat, Knight of >Amber and Marigold, > soon to be (I hope) Goddess of Flions, Step foreward to the > blue line and bow once." Sorana sees a figure standing before > her, flickering between a beautiful red-haired woman and a silvery > white unicorn, the lady smiles and Sorana knows she will never > be afraid of the Lady of the Unicorns. "Sorana, I have heard your > petition and you have searched diligently and long to find out my > true nature. I am pleased. So, I bequeath to you the title of > High Priestess of half of my nature, that of Unicorns, and you shall > ever be known on the rolls of the Halls of Myst as > Sorana Shadowcat, High Priestess of the Goddess of the Unicorns. > I give you the tools of your office, A diamond horn to sit upon > your virtual brow (it shrinks to a small diamond when in human > form, just like Gwen Stefani) that will give you wisdom in clearing > the sometimes poisoned waters of the list, and to help you discern > those in need of a little magic, (it won't help you figure out who > the virgins are though). Take up your office, Sorana and go forth, > Be heartened, for as long as one unicorn remains in the world, good > will still triumph over evil, day will still come, magic cannot be > destroyed and chocolate will not be fattening." The Lady gently > motions Sorana foreward and places the diamond on her forehead. > Sparkles flare out as it joins virtual flesh. Elves clap heartily > around the edges, and then the vision fades. > Soft currents to thy pinons, > Dax the Eternal, Goddess of Unicorns and Elves > Evangelist of Low Humor > "Good luck will rub off when I shakes hands wit' you, or blow > me a kiss and that's lucky too" - Mary Poppins Isn't this so totally cool! If you want to know how all this happened just let me know. I'll tell you. Love and Rainbows, Oceania a.k.a.Herald-trainee Sorana Shadowcat, High Priestess of the Goddess of the Unicorns, Knight of Amber and Marigold, soon to be (I hope) Goddess of Flions ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:35:45 +0100 From: "Dawn Patrick" To: Subject: Re: Various stuff Message-ID: > jeannie wrote : > > > IMNSHO -- this seems pretty clear -- most Companions are much older, and > have 'human' experience....it would *seem*? that to have the experience and > be able to use it, they must remember? Just my opinion, sorry if I am > defending a territory to death. :) > Just a quickie and I apologise for joining in the middle of a discussion if these things have been said before I interpreted the books such that all companions, except grove born, are reincarnated heralds and remember their past lives. A number of things point to that. 1 The Vanyel quote mentioned already. 2 The fact that all the first companions were grove born, it is only later (presumably after some heralds had died) that other companions were born. 3 The fact that at one point the star eyed referred to the companiions as being like her le'sheya (I think this was in oathbound). 4 The fact that every companion where we do know something about their past is either grove born or a reincarnated herald. 5 There was a discussion in the first part of the storms trilogy with Karal about the nature of companions which seemed to suggest that too. Oh and I pronounce it VANyel but I accent the first syllable in most names so I'm not necessarily the best judge! Dawn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 03:37:43 -0400 (EDT) From: RPierce137-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Enya and Other Stuff Message-ID: <970923033742_1997720012-+AT+-emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-09-23 00:30:54 EDT, you write: << Re VANyel vs VanYEL--I accent the first syllable because I figure Lackey probably wanted something similar to 'Daniel.' Kind of like Anne McCaffrey turning 'Melanie' into 'Menolly.' >> I personally say it Vahn-yel like like the name Vaughn. Anyone else? Robert ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:23:32 +0200 From: Christie Maas To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: you have got to see this! Message-ID: <342798A3.597D-+AT+-ch.twi.tudelft.nl> Sorana Shadowcat wrote: > > Heyla Ericka! > You won't believe what happened to me on my list today! Take a lok at > this! > GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu wrote: > > >Therefore, as the Avatar of the Goddess of > > >Nomenclature, I hereby officially Name and recognize Dax as the > > >Goddess of Unicorns and Elves (sauf Kory). With my felicitations > > >I offer a gift of an spiraled horn, carved from living sea-opal, > > >that will serve as the focus for Your Attribute (cf. Lord of Light > > >by Zelazny). > > > > The Lady of the Unicorns stands and takes the spiraled horn > > admiringly and then steps up the next step from Lady to Goddess. > > "Thank you, thank you, I shall wield it with grace and eternal > > vigilence to ward off the poisonous wounds of the world and stab > > those who would purposely foul the sweet waters of our list" She > > inclines her head to the Avatar. > > ***************** > > >Priestess > > Ah, yes and now to the heart of my fluff! > > > > *A heraldic voice cries* "Herald-trainee Sorana Shadowcat, Knight of > >Amber and Marigold, > > soon to be (I hope) Goddess of Flions, Step foreward to the > > blue line and bow once." Sorana sees a figure standing before > > her, flickering between a beautiful red-haired woman and a silvery > > white unicorn, the lady smiles and Sorana knows she will never > > be afraid of the Lady of the Unicorns. "Sorana, I have heard your > > petition and you have searched diligently and long to find out my > > true nature. I am pleased. So, I bequeath to you the title of > > High Priestess of half of my nature, that of Unicorns, and you shall > > ever be known on the rolls of the Halls of Myst as > > Sorana Shadowcat, High Priestess of the Goddess of the Unicorns. > > I give you the tools of your office, A diamond horn to sit upon > > your virtual brow (it shrinks to a small diamond when in human > > form, just like Gwen Stefani) that will give you wisdom in clearing > > the sometimes poisoned waters of the list, and to help you discern > > those in need of a little magic, (it won't help you figure out who > > the virgins are though). Take up your office, Sorana and go forth, > > Be heartened, for as long as one unicorn remains in the world, good > > will still triumph over evil, day will still come, magic cannot be > > destroyed and chocolate will not be fattening." The Lady gently > > motions Sorana foreward and places the diamond on her forehead. > > Sparkles flare out as it joins virtual flesh. Elves clap heartily > > around the edges, and then the vision fades. > > > Soft currents to thy pinons, > > Dax the Eternal, Goddess of Unicorns and Elves > > Evangelist of Low Humor > > "Good luck will rub off when I shakes hands wit' you, or blow > > me a kiss and that's lucky too" - Mary Poppins > > Isn't this so totally cool! If you want to know how all this happened > just let me know. I'll tell you. > Love and Rainbows, > Oceania > a.k.a.Herald-trainee Sorana Shadowcat, High Priestess of the Goddess of > the Unicorns, Knight of Amber and Marigold, soon to be (I hope) Goddess > of Flions yes, I (and many more I am sure) would love to hear the whole story of this...., so pleasepleaseplease (not quit begging), tell me what happened! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 04:17:03 -0700 From: Mark Cook & Tracy Hansel To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Enya and Other Stuff Message-ID: <3427A52F.4733-+AT+-worldnet.att.net> RPierce137-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > > I personally say it Vahn-yel like like the name Vaughn. Anyone else? > > Robert I was just getting ready to jump in with that! That is also the way I say it because that is the way its pronounced on the tape that Firebird put out of music from Vanyel's time. So I figured that Misty wanted it pronounced that way! Tracy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:22:43 -0400 (EDT) From: LCM46-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Enya and Other Stuff Message-ID: <970923082231_693269387-+AT+-emout12.mail.aol.com> Greetings all-- I have ascended from the basement, laundry basket in hand----as if you care ;-) re: Enya: she has 4 cds out, all are well worth listening to, and, to whoever (bad delete button) commented on the languages she sings in---it's English, some Latin, and Irish Gaelic--she's a "nice irish girl", and her family forms the group "Clannad"--she started her career singing with them. She writes her own music, too, and plays a lot of the instruments. re: who would I be???? prolly the laundress, who picks up after all those tired heralds, after they're back in from circuit! (Humor!!) Actually, I'd like to be the queen! Back to work! Lorraine Goddess of Domesticity/Laundry But I'm not dead yet! MP/Holy Grail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:22:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Tensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Enya and Other Stuff Message-ID: > I was just getting ready to jump in with that! That is also the way I > say it because that is the way its pronounced on the tape that Firebird > put out of music from Vanyel's time. So I figured that Misty wanted it > pronounced that way! > Tracy > If you get a chance to listen to all the tapes, you'll find they use about 3 pronounciations. whatever fits the lyrics at the time and sounds good, it seems. Tensen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:22:44 -0400 From: Cristilyn Lawton To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Vanyel's Name Message-ID: <34267123.5D65-+AT+-mindspring.com> RPierce137-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-09-23 00:30:54 EDT, you write: > > << Re VANyel vs VanYEL--I accent the first syllable because I figure Lackey > probably wanted something similar to 'Daniel.' Kind of like Anne McCaffrey > turning 'Melanie' into 'Menolly.' > >> > > I personally say it Vahn-yel like like the name Vaughn. Anyone else? > > Robert At Dragon*Con, Misty pronounced it with the "a" making an "ah" sound. In other words, it doesn't rhyme with Daniel. Vahn-yel is how I'd write how she pronounced it. Herald Darla, coming late to this debate ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:53:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Heather Shannon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Enya and Other Stuff Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 05:30:13 +0100 (BST) AERDEN-+AT+-delphi.com wrote: > Steve--Enya is an excellent group. I recommend _Shepherd's Moon_ and > _Watermark_ as very good albums. My favorite songs by them are "Caribbean > Blue" and the Latin one that sounds like, "Carsum Parficium." > > (Other music suggestions, in case anyone's interested :) ) > > I also recommend Loreena McKinnit's albums. She's a pseudo-Celtic vocalist, > and has set Tennyson's "Lady of Shalott" to music. Lovely voice. :) > > Renaissance, a fusion classical/rock band from the 70's, is _excellent!_ > They have three albums out on CD's. Their lead singer, Annie Haslam, has a > fantastic voice. > > Also, any music written by Hildegard of Bingen is absolutely gorgeous and > heavenly to listen to. ::blissful smile:: Look for her in the Gregorian > chant section of the better music stores. My favorite pieces by her are "O > Virga ac Diadema" and "O Ecclesia." If you prefer a more modern > introduction to her music, check out an album called _Vision_ It fuses > rock/New Age beats with Hildegard's music, and it actually works together > quite well. Hildegard did not write the usual 'boring' stuff that most > people think of as Gregorian chant. Her music soars. I don't know how to > describe it, except that it's what Heaven must sound like. > _____ > > In general... > > Re VANyel vs VanYEL--I accent the first syllable because I figure Lackey > probably wanted something similar to 'Daniel.' Kind of like Anne McCaffrey > turning 'Melanie' into 'Menolly.' > > And there's no need to be catty about Lackey protecting her copyrights. > McCaffrey and a lot of other authors don't permit fan fiction based on their > works to appear on Web pages, either. > > I've found _Owlflight_, and am debating whether to buy it now or wait for it > to come out in paperback. ::sigh!:: > > Chantal > Hey! I'm new, but I really like Lackey stuff. What's _Owlflight_, I haven't heard of it before? And I pronounce it VANyel just because it sounds better to me. > Rehtaeh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:33:21 EDT From: mdnewton-+AT+-unccvx.uncc.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Enya and Other Stuff Message-ID: <009BAB9C.F5E62420.12-+AT+-unccvx.uncc.edu> Hi all:) I was just experiencing what it felt like to be a "lurker" for the last few days:) Anyway, in my opinion Vanyel's name sould be pronounced VAN-yel... (it only makes sense.... *snicker*) Just to ctch up on the disscusionabout which character I am most like, I would have to say I am a cross between Firesong and Vanyel.(I'm not as depressed as Vanyel was, nor as vain as Firesongwas.. I lay somewhere in between:) ) Well thats my 2 cents$. Later... David (Herald wanabe, admirer of Vanyel, and Lord of Fluff!!! ;) ) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:04:00 -0500 From: georg-+AT+-swbell.net To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Calling all bards Message-ID: <3427E870.30AD-+AT+-swbell.net> Kenneth Allen Hyde wrote: > I'm not going to specifically address the issue of violating the > copyrights and intellectual property rights (i.e. stealing from) an author > who has given all of us so much > pleasure by sharing her writing (something she didn't have to do). But I > invite you to think about that before you continue on this Kale'nedral > page idea. > this is just tangential but you say she didnt have to share which is so true but dont forget...many many authors write because it pays...i.e. the end of DT...not being profitable among other things...I believe the biggest reason those authors that oppose fanfic, do so for fiscal reasons... Just MHO ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:58:22 -0500 From: "Traci Harriman" To: Subject: Re: *Gwena* Message-ID: <199709232058.NAA16039-+AT+-geocities.com> How do you mean? Could you explain more please? I'm confused!!! -------------- Traci Harriman harrimant-+AT+-geocities.com ---------- > From: Ashali9928-+AT+-aol.com > To: harrimant-+AT+-geocities.com > Subject: Fwd: *Gwena* > Date: Monday, September 22, 1997 6:44 PM > > > --------------------- > Forwarded message: > Subj: *Gwena* > Date: 97-09-21 02:17:09 EDT > From: AW Froth > To: Ashali9928 > > I found out more info on Gwena. See, what happened on page 28 in AFlight was > that Talia saw Elspeth heading toward the Grove. When Talia caught up with > Elspeth, Talia saw Gwena. Now Talia knew every Companion in the field so she > figured out that Gwena must be Grove-born like Rolan. Suddenly, Talia felt > Rolan's presence overwhelming her, tinged with regret. After blinking > dizzily, Talia vaguely remembered that Gwena had just been one of the shyer > Companions. See, what happened to Talia is what happened in the epilougue of > MPrice. Just had to pop that in. > > Savarana Sappharine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:10:38 -0700 From: dprono-+AT+-planet.eon.net To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Misty Fluff Message-ID: <34284C6E.3931-+AT+-planet.eon.net> Heyla, I came to offer my congrats, and I also come bearing a gift. >From my own personal collection of knick-knacks and dust catchers I have found in many different places, I give you this. *Yvonne holds out her hand to Sorena containing a small, delecatly crafted unicorn with a crystal coat and gilded hoves. Sorena gently takes it from her* It is a magical, well, it's magical, but as I am no Great Mage, I cant tell you what it does. WTTW, Yvonne Shadowshape bondmate to Chiti (Spotted-Crested Eagle) Lady of Bad Jokes > *A heraldic voice cries* "Herald-trainee Sorana Shadowcat, K of A&M, > soon to be (I hope) Goddess of Flions, Step foreward to the > blue line and bow once." Sorana sees a figure standing before > her, flickering between a beautiful red-haired woman and a silvery > white unicorn, the lady smiles and Sorana knows she will never > be afraid of the Lady of the Unicorns. "Sorana, I have heard your > petition and you have searched diligently and long to find out my > true nature. I am pleased. So, I bequeath to you the title of > High Priestess of half of my nature, that of Unicorns, and you shall > ever be known on the rolls of the Halls of Myst as > Sorana Shadowcat, High Priestess of the Goddess of the Unicorns. > I give you the tools of your office, A diamond horn to sit upon > your virtual brow (it shrinks to a small diamond when in human > form, just like Gwen Stefani) that will give you wisdom in clearing > the sometimes poisoned waters of the list, and to help you discern > those in need of a little magic, (it won't help you figure out who > the virgins are though). Take up your office, Sorana and go forth, > Be heartened, for as long as one unicorn remains in the world, good > will still triumph over evil, day will still come, magic cannot be > destroyed and chocolate will not be fattening." The Lady gently > motions Sorana foreward and places the diamond on her forehead. > Sparkles flare out as it joins virtual flesh. Elves clap heartily > around the edges, and then the vision fades. > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:13:54 PDT From: "Robin Lao" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Pronounciation Message-ID: <19970923231354.17796.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> Who cares about how you pronounce the names if you know who you mean? The way you say it doesn't matter as long as you know who you're talking about. I've been on the list before and have just joined again, but I hardly ever write. I've noticed that people argue a lot about how names should be pronounced. Well I say DROP IT 'cause it won't make a difference. Appologies if that sounds harsh, but that's how I feel. CUL8TR ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:05:07 -0400 (EDT) From: AERDEN-+AT+-delphi.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Enya and Other Stuff Message-ID: <01INZR01AE6A8WXUEP-+AT+-delphi.com> On 23-SEP-1997 09:03:11.2 mercedes-lackey said to AERDEN me>re: who would I be???? prolly the laundress, who picks up after all me>those tired heralds, after they're back in from circuit! (Humor!!) me>Actually, I'd like to be the queen! Lorraine--I like the way you think! (g) You like Clannad, too? Mark and I have as many of their CD's as we can find. We really liked their music for _Robin of Sherwood._ ObMisty...Uhhh....I wonder if they have 'classical' music on Velgarth? If they do, I guess it would be performed only at court or noblemen's homes, or possibly sometimes at places like The Compass Rose. (I think the CR is great! I wanna go there.) Chantal `[1;36;42mRainbow V 1.20.2 for Delphi - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:05:19 -0400 (EDT) From: AERDEN-+AT+-delphi.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Owlflight Message-ID: <01INZR0ANPBI8WXUEP-+AT+-delphi.com> Rehtaeh--_Owlflight_ is Lackey's newest Valdemar book, and it's out in hardback now. It's about a boy named Darlan (I think) who lives near the Pelagiris Forest after the mage storms finish wreaking havoc on the creatures and plants living in it. It looks pretty good, and I like the cover art, which is of the main character. Larry Dixon also illustrated this book. Chantal `[1;31;41mRainbow V 1.20.2 for Delphi - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:29:02 -0700 From: larsen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: No talented people Message-ID: <342888FE.3085-+AT+-voyager.net> Hey, with no la's! Alright you people, I know you know how to write so start sending the stuff. http://brownhawk2-+AT+-hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:05:46 -0700 From: Remmington Crothian To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Owlflight Message-ID: <3428757A.94C-+AT+-ix.netcom.com> That reminds me, I finished the book yesterday do if anyone wants to discuss it offlist I'm willing. -- On the way back they sang a number of tuneful and reflective songs on the subject of peace, morality, culture, sports, family life, and the obliteration of all other life forms. ................................ Attention, now we will sing the history of the pighead who stopped our beloved Red Baron!! ................................ ICQ 1438388 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:26:47 GMT From: adunster-+AT+-ritzville.org (Anna Dunster) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Several bits... Message-ID: <3427e935.40243021-+AT+-Ritzville.org> On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 06:31:21 +0100 (BST), thou didst write to me, and this is what thou didst write: >IIRC Misty seems a little unclear herself...doesn't it say=20 >somewhere(I think in AFlight) that the Monarch's Own Companion was=20 >considered to have more experience than the other Companions because he=20 >had been around longer. But doesn't it say somewhere else(I think=20 >WoFate) that Gwenna didn't have as much experience as other Companions=20 >because she was Grove born? Help, I'm confused!!!!!(5) I believe that Rolan has been around longer - I think he was the last Monarch's Own's companion as well as Talia's (what was his name? I have forgotten it . . . ) and Gwena had only been around since the night that Elspeth got Chosen. Annd ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:09:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Eos419-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: stuff Message-ID: <970923230600_2020291499-+AT+-emout14.mail.aol.com> Pronunciation: I say VANyel. I don't have any good reason, that's just what I thought when I read it. I think one of the advantages of talking via e-mail is that you don't have to worry about pronunciation, but when speaking aloud, it becomes a problem. Owlflight: Went to the library today. My hold is number 2!!! wooo hoooo!! (up from 4 two weeks ago. I started out as 29. there are currently 31 holds on it.) Writing: I am in the process of writing the first story I've written in a long time. I don't know what genre it would be; maybe sci-fi. At any rate, I'm not sure it is really appropriate. Titles: I want one. My name looks so lonely there by itself. Moon Pie, Kaeldra ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1341 **********************************