MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1372 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Copyrights, RPGs, MOOs, MUDs, ad nauseam by buzzz-+AT+-buckeyeweb.com (Buzzz) 2) Re: Here's one for you/Where do I find... by Stasia 3) Fluff Stuff ('scuse me! I'll be quick!) by dprono-+AT+-planet.eon.net 4) Re: Characters and Fluff by RPierce137-+AT+-aol.com 5) (Jodie the Fosterling) by 95662014 <95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk> 6) Re: Copyrights, RPGs, MOOs, MUDs, ad nauseam by RPierce137-+AT+-aol.com 7) If Wishes were Books... by Tracy_L_Danberry-+AT+-rohmhaas.com (Tracy L Danberry) 8) Re: If Wishes were Books... by BARKERM-+AT+-scss.pcbe.on.ca (Megan Barker) 9) Re: Halloween/Heros(was Prison-History)/Prison-History by Deniz Sarikaya 10) Re: Sacred Ground by Hyllarr-+AT+-aol.com 11) Re: Who is Misty writing for? by Elizabeth Hoffman 12) Re: Who is Misty writing for by Tracy_L_Danberry-+AT+-rohmhaas.com (Tracy L Danberry) 13) Re:Order of Fluff/Why does Misty... by "Sarah Margaret" 14) Re: Who is Misty writing for by JBGNY 15) Re: If Wishes were Books... by "Dawn Patrick" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:18:42 -0400 From: buzzz-+AT+-buckeyeweb.com (Buzzz) To: Subject: Re: Copyrights, RPGs, MOOs, MUDs, ad nauseam Message-ID: <19971022012210750.AAB195-+AT+-Buzzz.Buckeyeweb.com> > From: MagicCCC > To: buzzz-+AT+-buckeyeweb.com > Subject: Re: Copyrights, RPGs, MOOs, MUDs, ad nauseam > Date: Sunday, October 19, 1997 5:34 PM >Authors by their very nature > are trying to free your imagination and help you become more creative. > People like Jules Verne and HG Wells were directly responsible for much > of this century's technology. Do you think they would have sued the > scientists for being able to invent something that they only imagined? > > How hopelessly small minded you all are. I am incredibly sorry for you > all, and will not bother you all again. I prefer to soar the heights of > what is best in the world, and not explore the depths with those of no > imagination or foresight. > > And by the way, I am a writer myself and have created several role > playing games that are in use. Personally, I would be flattered to hear > people using pieces of it, not screaming copyright infringement at all. > Maybe if you all used your imaginations for good instead of petty > bickering it might do better. I agreee with you wholeheartedly! It's nice to know someone out there still has a heart. I am so sick of hearing about lawyers, and sueing, and copywrite infringement, and all that crap. Why can't people just live and enjoy their lives? That's what we were put on this earth for. I, myself, am a very creative person. I have a degree in art. But with almost every job I have had, the bigwigs try to stifle your creativity, and tell you that things have to be done THEIR way. Don't you think people were created with a brain for a reason? I enjoy reading fanasy novels because they inspire me, and give me creative ideas to use in my own life, along with a little escapism from this evil encrusted world of ours. I think if our world were a little more tolerant peoples ideas and minds, our world would be on an INstructive path instead of a DEstructive one. And that goes for everything from schools to politics. I learned in my art classes how important it is to have both creative, and technical people on this earth. You are absolutly right when you say that science owes a lot of it's technology to art. Look at Star Trek, and Buck Rogers. The creative teams invented technology that wasn't thought of yet. Then the scientists say, "Hey, that's a good idea, I think we could make that happen!" So much of that art/science relationship is responsible for where we are today. At least in the way of technology. Now if we could only get our heads screwed on straight, we might be able to go somewhere! Thank you for letting me vent! Skywynd :-D Bondmate to Skycloud the white feline with blue eyes and her mother Sheena, Queen of the jungle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:05:34 -0400 From: Stasia To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Here's one for you/Where do I find... Message-ID: <344D6D7E.2FC1-+AT+-gte.net> Elizabeth Hoffman wrote: > Answer to your first question, is Swords and Sorceresses (or however > you do spell it) edited by Marion Zimmer Bradley (MZB anyway sorry > for spelling) and I think its volume 8. It does say in the front of > Oathbound that certain of the chapters were previously published in > this series of short stories. and Kenneth Allen Hyde wrote: >Okay, kewl, a topic that I don't sound like a shrew about. =) Anyway, the >volume with the origin story for Tarma and Kethry is the much-hunted, and >unfortunately out-of-print, Volume #3 of the Sword and Sorceress series. >This is the story where Clan Tale'esedrin is destroyed and Tarma become >Sword-sworn, and it has her meeting with Kethry and their first joint adventure. Grutsi to you both. Now I just have to find THAT and half my quest will be completed. %^} Kenneth Allen Hyde also wrote: >There is a T&K story in every volume of S&S from #3 until #12 (IIRC). At >that point, T&K are not longer a regular feature of the series Are any of them still in print or is there any way that I might be able to get ahold of them?? I wonder if I might be able to find them at the huge UBS called Haslam's down the street from me.... Sigh... the quest begins. AND Elizabeth Hoffman wrote: > Sword of Ice, not heared of that one, tell me more! It's a compilation of short stories set in Velgarth (mostly in Valdemar, but not all) written by people that are not Misty (though she did consult/co-write a few) I found it in my local B&N about 6 months or so back... The stories are very good. If you can find a copy, I definately recommend it. And, let me know what you think! Okay, so maybe I CAN get this braid thing down... even if it is in my own weird way! Wind to thy Wings, Amber ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:16:56 -0700 From: dprono-+AT+-planet.eon.net To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Fluff Stuff ('scuse me! I'll be quick!) Message-ID: <344D7E38.502-+AT+-planet.eon.net> Heyla All thee Listians out there! I must appologise most profusly for doing this, but as I am the only 'Fluffian' out there, I decided that I was lonely and needed some people to keep me company in my air-headed crusades. And then I came across this e-mail:MEGAN DIMOND wrote: > > With all the discusion about copyrights and suchlike I couldn't risist > sending this: > DISCLAIMER: > Megan Megan, would you like to become a Knight of Fluff? Because of Sarah Margaret's silence, I have decided to do this the easy way-Let it grow. (The Fluffian Order) I have decided that this thing will come to be by having already existing members (Knights of Fluff) initiate new members. In otherwords, you can become a Knight if another person says "I sponser you" or something like that, and then you can add a 'Knight of Fluff by Decree of So and So' to your title. Sounds Fluffy enough? So Meghan, if you would like to enter this oh-so-serious Order and become a Knight? I am MORE than willing to sponser you. If so, you must abide by this strict code: ;) I, as a Knight of Fluff, swear to add humor to any situation through the use of creative writing; not take the easy way out through making fun of other Listians (lighthearted teasing allowed, as long as it isnt insulting) or breaking copyrights or in anyway harming Mel the Most Fabulous Listmistress; initiate any who show willingness to jump into things headfirst, make a fool of themselves, and get flamed. I hope you take me up on my offer. (this is also open to any who have a sense of humor-I'll initiate you too!) OBMisty - Hummmmmmm...... OH! someone (bad delete finger, bad!) asked what different characters would dress up for on Sovvan night? Well, I think Dirk would make a mighty fine Scarecrow! Yvonne Shadowshape bondmate to Chiti (Spotted-Crested Eagle) Godess (presumptive) of Kelpies, Selkies, and other Water-Borne Appreciator of Penguins Knight of Fluff (the origional) _ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 01:59:24 -0400 (EDT) From: RPierce137-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Characters and Fluff Message-ID: <971022014948_1656397904-+AT+-mrin46.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-20 08:21:38 EDT, you write: << The whole Mage Storms series seemed to lack something. I knew intellectually when I was supposed to be sad or disturbed or worried, but it didn't touch me personally >> Personally, my favorite character was the herald's daughter (I can't even remember her name), and she really didn't seem to garner that much development in the second half of the series. She seemed more like a plot device. My favorite scenes in the trilogy involved Elspeth, Darkwind, Firesong, and the Winds characters. Continuing stories with the same characters force a new plotline and make formula novels (Owlflight, which I liked, is still formula) more difficult. Robert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:29:44 +0100 From: 95662014 <95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk> To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: (Jodie the Fosterling) Message-ID: <74B320874D8-+AT+-ghondr.mmu.ac.uk> > From: AERDEN-+AT+-delphi.com > OBMISTY--Say, do you all think JF could do justice to Kero? Oh is it time for another Casting session? [Ducking from those who have been through this about 5 times already] ************************************************ Zha'hai'allav'a Kalen Shena Vuysher'edras Kal'enedral [OIB](AKA Jason Stokes) 95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk "If we shadows have offended, think but this and all is mended. That you have but slumbered here While these visions did appear". *Puck, Midsummer Nights Dream* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 01:52:25 -0400 (EDT) From: RPierce137-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Copyrights, RPGs, MOOs, MUDs, ad nauseam Message-ID: <971022014936_1934304208-+AT+-mrin46.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-19 17:35:28 EDT, MagicCCC writes: << How hopelessly small minded you all are. I am incredibly sorry for you all, and will not bother you all again. >> I'm amazed that someone whose point seems to be that authors should broaden people's minds would be as closed-minded. I, for one, am proud of all of you who respect Misty's wishes and rights by not doing anything which might infringe on her copwrites. Thank You, Robert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:17:11 -0400 From: Tracy_L_Danberry-+AT+-rohmhaas.com (Tracy L Danberry) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: If Wishes were Books... Message-ID: <00154C7B.1306-+AT+-rohmhaas.com> Bright the day, listsibs. I was just reading Eddings' Polgara the Sorceress (basically a 4000+ history of Eddings' world). Wouldn't it be great if Misty would pen the Velgarth history from the perspective of either Van (as a ghost keeping track of world events, focusing on Valdemar), or from King/Baron Valdemar himself (just think, the forging and founding of current beliefs, society, culture; not to mention brief mentions of the Empire, the Hileagh {I always spell that wrong}, Iftel, etc...). She could also do one from Urtho and/or Skan's perspective, as spirits, up until Valdemar's founding. It would tie up sooooo many loose ends, yet still leave plenty of new story plots. Anyone agree??? Trae, mindmate to fabulous Sax (peregrine falcon) & Jaxom (firebird) Anyone hear any Princess Di jokes? See below. I've left a "Potentially Offensive Joke" barrier, for those who don't want to read them. Yes, they're in horrible taste, but kind of funny... J O K E B A R R I E R What does Princess Di turn in to at the stroke of 12? The wall What's the difference between a Porsche and a Mercedes? Diana wouldn't be caught dead in a Porsche What's the difference between Diana and Tiger Woods? Tiger Woods has a better driver! There's a longer, more sacrilegious one of Diana and Mother Teresa, but you've gotta E:mail me personally if you're interested... RSTTLT-+AT+-ROHMHAAS.COM ------------------------------ Date: 22 Oct 1997 08:55:03 EDT From: BARKERM-+AT+-scss.pcbe.on.ca (Megan Barker) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: If Wishes were Books... Message-ID: <199710221251.IAA17905-+AT+-fiona.orc.ca> On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:39:42 +0100 (BST), Tracy_L_Danberry-+AT+-rohmhaas.com writes: >Bright the day, listsibs. I was just reading Eddings' Polgara the Sorceress any good? meg ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Megan Barker 'And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms my beamish boy! Oh frabjous day, callooh callay!' he chortled in his joy. - Jabberwocky, Lewis Carroll ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:17:05 From: Deniz Sarikaya To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Halloween/Heros(was Prison-History)/Prison-History Message-ID: <3.0.3.16.19971022091705.29a7dbe6-+AT+-po-box.mcgill.ca> I put the more light-hearted stuff near the front, as it gets very serious in the second half. Actually, it gets long, but there's a prize at the end :) Kory said: >Deniz said: >>And by the way, there is *no way* this list is too serious if we're not >>discussing circles or genetics *snicker*. > >Or discussin how mean everyone is (flashbacks to November, last year)....or >how horribly LHM ended, in depth...well, to tell the truth, the list *can* >get boring, but then we get fun new stuff to even it out. *nod* I hope we *never* get back to what happened in November with the insults and arguments about a valid point that was very Misty related, or later, in March was it? with the completely un-Misty religious thing that happenned. If these sound bizarre to you people out there, read the digest, get a sense of history. It's worth it. However, around October, we had what some list sibs have called the best discussion about pagan religions on the net, because all the pagan usenets and mailing lists were overloaded by spammers and baiters, and they could never really get a thread going. >>ObMisty: I think the first bit has gone off-topic enough that it is not >>Misty enough... errrr.... *pummel* Okay... well... What do you think >>various characters would dress up as if they had an equivalent of >>Halloween? Hmmm? > >*bap*! How long *has* it been since you read LHM, hmm? Sovven! The >anniversary of Lendel's death! But *Kory*, *do* they dress up? Hmmm? No, they remember who passed away, yes, but they don't dress up and go trick or treating. *That* was my point. >> Then it could get really political, with people dressing up as >>others, only accentuating... ohhh... their big noses or some such thing. > >Heh. People who don't like how liberal Savil is dressing up as a crone in >white robes wearing a tacky feather mask, with a footlong nose;> *giggle snort* can we say Cyrano? >And for any who care, the whole purpose behind this post was to show my >excellent memory for Valdemaran holidays mentioned maybe 5 times;> And you still missed the point of why I brought it up, Kor, so nyah! :p >>Remmington wrote: >>>You shouldn't go by who's in prison, but by who commits the crimes and >>>it's still men who create the most crimes and the most henius crimes. >>>But that's in our world. In Misty's world she has women as heros more >>>often then men. Which is untrue for the real world. While many people >>>may argue that point, it's true. Look through any history book and come >>>up with a male female ration. Also Misty has a habit of making her male >>>hero's gay, which again many of the male hero's in our world are not. >>>I'm in anyway insulting people by this message. My point is just becouse >>>something is true in our world does not mean it is true in any other. >> >>Deniz (thass me!) said: >>Well, m'dear... look through the first pages of any history book, and >>you'll find they were all *written* by straight euro-centric males. >>Basically, everything we have of history is that one side of the story. >>You can't use that argument here, sorry. > >He added: >So now the winners are changing the sex of the lossers? Besides, you >tatally missed my point. You went right to the part that could be argued >and you ignored the section that it doesn't matter in our world. Okay, I'll admit I did go straight there, but that was because I felt it was the most blatant assumption in there. And, I'll admit, at the time it sounded arrogant, as well, and I was being snipey. And I'm not saying the winners are neccessarily changing the sex of the losers, but rather *overlooking* the heros of the wrong group, or diminishing their importance. It wasn't until women's rights, queer (and I mean this in the inclusive, yes, I too am queer sense) rights, and abolishing slavery were hot topics of the day when historians of the straight (or closeted) white male majority (and dominance) started recording what they did. Unless it was something *major* like Joan of Arc. IMESHO, it was as if until they were aware of these classes of human as people, they had a blind spot towards them. That's what I was trying to say, and just being rather quick about. And yes, I'm discussing Western Civilization here, coz it's what I was indoctrinated with, and it's what Misty grew up with, as well. Would you like some After Eights? Wonderful mints, absolutely delicious :) Now, does it matter in our world? I believe here we're discussing Misty's tendency to have many female and gay heros? This is a trend I have noticed in more modern times. Lets assume women and gay men (Misty hasn't had any queer women main chars yet) are communities. If you want to write something, you aim it at a community. I will assume that a community is more interested in a book which stars a member of their community whom they can identify with than a member of a community whom they feel oppressed by. Until women started getting educations and writing, pretty much the only community out there was male. I don't know anything about pre 19th century gay male oriented literature, so I'll leave that for Cen (or whoever else knows) to fill in the blanks. Some hot cocoa? Tea? Coffee? Also, because the only *educated* community was male, women tended to be stereotyped and cast in certain roles. But I mean, how many men do you know who claim to understand women and why they do what they do? I'm frankly not surprised. When women *did* get their educations, they must have felt pretty offended by some of the portrayals out there. Enter the Gothic novel, which seems to run like normal, with the ditzy female falling for the oh-so-brave male... until the plot twists come... you get things like, the "evil" male turning out to be the good one, while the paragon is really a sleazeball... and the women tend to deviate slightly from the preset character... they rebel against the expected plans in a show of strength/rebellion/etc. Or the woman could end the novel without marrying at all and *horror* not feeling bad about it. Quite a few writers still haven't grasped the concept a straight woman can live happily, unwed (*glare* at a certain Author with his followers in White). Finally, we had women with a spine. Women who woman readers admired for doing things they didn't dare but always dreamed of, for acting their dreams. From the Gothic Novel, women in literature have progressed quite a bit... but the reason so many women write stories centering on woman heros is because, as I mentioned before, there are *still* strong stereotypes about what women are/want/need in literature out there, especially in the "classics". Does this reflect what's happening in the real world? Not necessarily, but it reflects what *could* happen if the "old boys club" could unlearn their stereotypes and respect women for who and what they are. I am not Black (and I mean that with all respect) myself, but I have noticed the same tendency among Black authors, male *or* female, of catering to the community they come from. Of course, the Black women are catering to a community with two sets of perceptions to fight. I hope that's enough there, if not, people, feel free to fill in. The issue of the Queer community is slightly stickier because, as many people point out, it is not always a visibly identifiable trait. This is more of a community where "it takes one to know one" applies, or at least, it takes one with familiarity to know one. Now, I think it was around late 19th/early 20th century that homophobia *really* started kicking in, and all the queer literature out there became very coded. This, of course, makes it harder to find all the references out there, unless you are equipped with and prepared to utilize the code. With the advent of Queer visibility, however, the literature out there has gotten much more open and blatant. And, of course, it follows the tendency of community writings which I have pointed out before of creating Queer heros who the readers may identify with. Once again, I defer to Cen's knowledge in this arena, as I don't know as much about this. I don't claim to know Misty's sexual orientation. She hasn't exactly come out and said "I am thus-and-thus" but I can say for *sure* she is a woman, and prolly she is either bi or "straight but not narrow", ie a friend of the Queer Cause. And I'm glad not having her lock down in stone what her personal preferences are, it makes it harder to say "You belong in this category and should be treated thusly". Some friends of mine try to operate on the assumption of 'bi until they say otherwise', and even they still have their blind spots. ie, these two women, who were my ex's roommates, didn't realize we (she's female, and so am I) were going out, and they (who at first were pretty sure they were straight) started goin' at it like loggers. What I'm saying is, even when you try not to have the assumption set ingrained by society, it's easy to fall right back into it, even if you are breaking it, yourself. Sheesh, do I sound pretentious? If so, well, chocomint sheep to all :) >And the history written by the victors doesn't apply here. The victors >do make the losers look like the bad guy, but they do not claim that all >of the heros (which would be theirs) are male if they are female. ?But I >don't want to get into this debate. So, are there any actual threads on >this list that deal with mercedes lackey or what? I think I've answered all this above. And I'm sorry I misinterpereted what you said before. Misty isn't writing for *everybody* in the real world. She's writing for members of the woman and Queer communities, and for those who are open minded enough to read something which contradicts their ingrained perception/assumption set. And why don't you want to get into this here? I think we're managing to keep it civil :) Weeeelll... maybe now we are. And of course there are threads that deal with Misty, didn't you see my bit about Halloween at the bottom of my post? *sniff* I'm hurt! And about the prisoners thing? Read this great book called Victorian Murderesses, subtitled A True History of Thirteen Respectable French & English Women Accused of Unspeakable Crimes, by Mary S Hartman, published by Robson House, copyright 1977, republished 1985. This book consists of case studies of the court cases of these women, many of whom were accused of killing their husband. Many of them were found innocent, even though, looking at the case, almost all were guilty. Why? Mostly because the all male jury didn't want to admit to themselves that their sweet docile wives could *possibly* kill their husbands, because then they'd have to ask themselves awkward questions about their own wives. Here are some nice quotes to sum up the roles of these lady criminals. "In their own time the lady killers of the Victorian era, whether excused or vilified, were almost never presented as the women they were. They assumed multiple identities fashioned both by themselves and by others. In legal proceedings the masks they wore proved useful to them in some cases and detrimental in others, but in all they served to shield contemporaries from the disturbing countenances of real women. "Subsequent tellers of their tales have usually been content to portray the accused murderesses as freaks. This [book's] rather more sympathetic survey might be mistaken as an attempt to view all the women as victims in their own right, creatures subjected to various forms of male domination. But while elements of victimization are clear enough in many of the cases, such a view is far too resrictive. The label of victim both trivializes and distorts the rich and varied stuff of these women's lives and, not incidentally, ignores their own homicidal activities. In this instance, as in most other considerations of women's roles, the charge of male oppression, however emotionally satisfying and even true, leaves much to be desired. "Equally inadequate is the related notion that the women were social rebels, even proto-feminists, using murderous schemes to challenge outmoded codes of behavior... the designation proto-feminist is hardly appropriate to women who were anything but crusaders, who were neither reformers nor public defenders of their sex. It is clear that by the end of the [nineteenth] century many middle-class women were unwilling to accept the same sorts of legal and social inferiority as they had earlier, but it would be rash to regard the criminal behavior of some of these women as a self-conscious feminist expression. "The accused women were not, then, simply freaks or victims or rebels; rather, they were women who were especially vulnerable to the same pressures experienced by the majority of thier peers. Those pressures emerged from two sources: the actual changes which were transforming society and which encouraged women to take advantage of new options in their roles as daughters, wives, and mothers and the public efforts to interpret these changes, many of which attempted to redefine women's nature and function as well as to assign them both praise and blame for the way things were. Most women survived the upheaval by adapting; a good number--how many is unclear--never did manage the adjustments required of them. Among these were the handful whose lives were exposed through investigations for murder." [Pp. 255-6] "These spectacles[these court cases were highly publicized], to be sure, gave everybody an obvious occasion to wallow in the morbid details of murderous intrigue, but more importantly, as their behavior demonstrates, women found in the trials an opportunity for release of frustrations and for vicarious fulfillment of unrealized desires. Some of them found, too, that courtroom displays of blatant sexual prejudice could obliterate all differences between the prisoners in the dock and themselves, leaving only the sense of their shared and persecuted womanhood. The fascination that the trials held for the female audience bespoke an affinity of feeling and experience which is unmistakable. These women could understand the frustrations and terrors that drove the accused, for they had traveled some of the same dark paths themselves." [p. 269] Wow, that post turned out to be longer than I was expecting. Well, if you made it this far, here's a masseur/se sheep who will massage your back while creating the illusion that you're lying on your back at the same time. Enjoy! Y'know, maybe I'll be able to rejuve the b-day list after all. love, Deniz Sarikaya, High Priestess of | When it is May, Procrastination, Counselor of MIST, | If May return -- Holy Custodian of the B-Day List, Dame | Has nobody a pang of the OoAM, Bower Champion, Demon of | Lest on a face so beautiful Deceitful Aliases, Lady of the Seas, | He might not look again? Prince Cunning, and Mother Hen, II | - Emily Dickinson >dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA< >freakola-+AT+-geocities.com< >http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/9359/< ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 03:06:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Hyllarr-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Sacred Ground Message-ID: <971021170136_26580565-+AT+-emout14.mail.aol.com> Heyla I've read "Sacred Ground". It's about this Native American detective and her grandfather who is a Medicene Man and he is teaching her to be a Medicine'Man' also. They have actual powers, and a Peace Pipe is the sign that you have become a Shaman, I guess you'd call it. What has happened was Rod Calligan (The one who is always skimping on construction regulations) has found this bundle that is/used to be Watches Over The Land's greatest enemy. Jenifer and her grandfather are trying to stop him and there are several other little sub-plotes going on also. One is Jenifer and her problem of become a Medicin'Man' and earning the Peace Pipe. Another is Jenifer and her old boyfriend (whose name currently escapes me). The other is trying to find out how the artifacts got to the construction site that Rod Calligan was working at, supposidly to create a mall there. Yet another sub-plot is trying to figure out who has been robbing grave-sites of their ancester's. Rod Calligan has also got a friend at the Insurance Agency, the same one that hired Jenifer to try to dig something up on Rod Calligan. The last sub-plot, atleast the last one I can think of off the top of my head, is getting, or rather, trying, to get Rod Calligan's wife to leave him and go to a woman's shelter. Which reminds me of the Little People. They are dead Native Americans who died without honor or without proper burial. They are attacking everyone that is even slightly associated with Rod Calligan, which includes his wife and thier kids. Have I completly confused everyone who reads ths quite thoroughly? Sorry, kinda did this in a hurry. If you have any questions, email me privatly at Hyllarr-+AT+-aol.com and I'll try to clear it up for you. Sorry for such a long letter! Amy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:49:44 +0100 (BST) From: Elizabeth Hoffman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Who is Misty writing for? Message-ID: Hi, Deniz Sarikaya said > Misty isn't writing for *everybody* in the real world. >She's writing for members of the woman and Queer >communities, and for those >who are open minded enough to read something which >contradicts their >ingrained perception/assumption set. Do authors, particularly Misty, write with any specific group in mind? I think if you're reading science fiction/fantasy novels you've got to accept the authors set of rules for that world. To get the most out of it you then, if its well written, automatically consider them in relation to real life. The thing that's great about Misty's writing is that the morals / behaviour patterns she applies fit everyone straight / shaych all through the spectrum, no categorizing required. I guess I assumed that the books were written with just people in mind, not people as categories. Hope that made sense. Liz ---------------------- Elizabeth Hoffman E.G.Hoffman-+AT+-soton.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:27:50 -0400 From: Tracy_L_Danberry-+AT+-rohmhaas.com (Tracy L Danberry) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Who is Misty writing for Message-ID: <00155218.1306-+AT+-rohmhaas.com> Heyla all! Just my $0.02 worth: Since Misty stopped writing the Diana Tregarde novels because they don't sell (re. The Last Straw letter), then IMHO, she is actually targeting TO INCLUDE, individuals of alternate lifestyles. Being a straight female, happily married, content with current lifestyle I can only suppose, but it seems that there must be a huge market out there for heroes/heroines that aren't 100% straight. Why must gay people only read gay authors for those lifestyles to be featured in a positive light? (Lament - it isn't fair) There are so many fabulous authors that should do what Misty does. Anyway, I think she has to be a fairly open minded individual, but cynically, I think she does it for the money. Here's a question: How many people who are bi or 100% homosexual like Misty's work and buy it way more than any other author (who is equally talented) BECAUSE of how she features her heroes/heroines? Curious Trae, Mindmate to Sax and Jaxom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:15:45 -0400 From: "Sarah Margaret" To: Subject: Re:Order of Fluff/Why does Misty... Message-ID: <01bcdf16$84463740$74c5cfcf-+AT+-zoo-2.pica.army.mil> I'm really sorry about just leaving this quick post, but I don't have time to leave anything more... Yvonne, you're doing a great job with the group. Keep it up :) :hands Yvonne Septor of Fluff: Take over as you wish, oh, fair knight. :grin: Loved the disclaimer.. LOL. Definately deserve your knight title, there. I'm asserting that I'm not a Knight, but a Lady of the Order of the Fluff... And I'm gonna let the Knights do all the work. I'll sit back here and compose ;) On the whole "Does Misty write for the gay or 'straight but not narrow' community?" Well, yes. No one who _isn't_ one of those two groups would be able to sit through LHM without doing something drastic. :grin: I _always_ warn "If you're homophobic, don't read this book," before I reccomend LHM... Though, if people said they were homophobic, that'd put a damper on our friendship. ;) (I'm bi, btw) Do I buy her books more because of that? No, I don't. I bought three of her books (Jinx High, Sacred Ground, Arrows of the Queen) before I read LHM.. And I bought LHM because I liked her previous books; not because Van was gay. I admit, I love the angle, and those few scenes with Van/Stef/'lendel... Aren't they just the greatest? :grin: It's wonderful to see a gay character portrayed in a light that doesn't shun his personality. Almost all science fiction and fantasy I've read ignore this; or downright disclaim goodness and light from this group of people. How many books have I thrown down because the villian, and no one else in the book, was gay? More than enough. While that-mage-I-can't-remember-his-name-that-was-hired-by-Evan-even-though-I've- read-the-book-a-million-and-one-times was either gay or bi, so was the hero. In this case, gay didn't define good or bad, but simply a sexual orientation. Does this make me read her books more than a writer of equal quality? I don't think so. I tend to think of Misty as one of the best writers out there; and it's hard to find an author of the same calliber. To be fair, I devoured (it was a phase.. I'm now in a fantasy rut) Star Trek novels at the same rate.. (points to a certain fifty or so book on her shelf, and noticibly warn in the center lie the ones written by Peter David)... and I have _all_ of Douglas Adam's books (on my shelf and memorized ).. even though there's not a gay character featured in any one of those. What I love about Misty's books are the strength of characterization, and the writing style -- the side acceptance is just a plus. Copyrights.. This is Misty's hard work and dedication. We can dream, we can imagine, but do we really have to steel? If you want to write about it, fine. But keep it to yourself unless you have permission. And, anyway.. isn't it more fun to come up with your own ideas? Well.. longer than I thought it would be, and no fluff for now, even though I've got a top ten list revolving in my head.. I must go write a short story for a project my teacher "forgot" to tell me he assigned while I was absent.. Five hours to write ten typed pages... I can do that.. of course... :Rolls eyes at teachers who really expect things like this from High Schoolers: Well, it's a good thing I have no life to put off. ;) Zhai'helleva! Sarah Margaret Lady of the Fluffian Order cherenac-+AT+-mail.eclipse.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:14:14 EDT From: JBGNY To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Who is Misty writing for Message-ID: <459b4374.344e424e-+AT+-aol.com> In a message dated 10/22/97 11:55:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Tracy writes: > Here's > a question: How many people who are bi or 100% homosexual like Misty's work > > and buy it way more than any other author (who is equally talented) BECAUSE > of how she features her heroes/heroines? Tracy -- that would be me. I came out when I was 16, and when I was 25 ( im 29 now) I adopted my son Josh when he was but 2 days old. As a parent I became aware of how important books and imagery are to child development. Then I realized how important they are to me. When I read I like to be able to identify with book in some way. There are many facets to my life besides being gay -- I am a single Jewish parent of an African American son. I love reading books about obstacles overcome, and adore books when they feature gay characters. Especially gay characters that are just living their lives, and they accomplish so much BECAUSE of what they are gay not despite it. Give me more details on "The last Strw Letter" I never heard of it. For those who are interested, here is a link to Josh and my site...hope this goes through. Joel and Joshua ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:06:43 +0100 From: "Dawn Patrick" To: Subject: Re: If Wishes were Books... Message-ID: > Megan wrote : > > On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:39:42 +0100 (BST), Tracy_L_Danberry-+AT+-rohmhaas.com > writes: > >Bright the day, listsibs. I was just reading Eddings' Polgara the > Sorceress > > any good? > Personally I thought better than Belgarath but in general I felt the whole series has gone downhill. Sigh. Nothing is as good as it used to be. young folks today grumble grumble etc. > Deniz wrote : > (Misty hasn't had any queer women main chars yet) What about Keren, Ylsa & Sherrill? OK so they weren't THE main characters in any books but they certainly played a significant role. (BTW I totally agree with your historical comments. So much so that I haven't really got anything else to add to them). > Trae wrote : > Here's a question: How many people who are bi or 100% homosexual like Misty's > work and buy it way more than any other author (who is equally talented) > BECAUSE of how she features her heroes/heroines? Interesting point. Also speaking as a (predominantly) straight woman (predominantly straight not predominantly woman. Entirely woman) I have to say that one of the things that attracted me to Misty's work is the strength and character of her heroines. I find with so much F&SF writing women play a secondary role and, I have to admit, I find it harder to identify with male characters than female most of the time. It also makes a change to have a society that doesn't vilify people for their secuality, religion etc (IMHO the religious principles in Valdemar are as important as the other factors because it symbolises freedom of speech and freedom of thought). As for whether it is a cynical ploy to attract readers like me (and presumably many of you too) does it matter? Good done in the name of evil is still good and writing with principles done in the name of money still has those principles. Final point today to all those who have mentioned having phases in their reading - At last I am not alone! So few people seem to understand this. Dawn ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1372 **********************************