MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1446 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Hi by GrobuHit-+AT+-t-online.de (M. Grob u. S. Hitzler) 2) Re: Re-writing by "Angie" 3) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 1445 by Femmy Syahrani 4) Re: Re-writing by Greg Wooledge 5) Re: Re-writing, et al by "Marie Jordan" 6) Re: Re-writing, et al by Riyan699 7) It'd be a braid if I weren't too lazy to go back and get the by "Raven Darkblade" 8) Kethry's Death by Beth Cavanaugh 9) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 1445 by "J. Aguiar" 10) braid by Beth Cavanaugh 11) Skif's new trauma (re: this would be a braid if...) by GodesCarla 12) Braid by Shadowdancer 13) Just a little FYI... by Stasia 14) Re: Skif's new trauma (re: this would be a braid if...) by "Raven Darkblade" 15) Drake/Firesong/kigh by "Angie" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:55:52 +0100 From: GrobuHit-+AT+-t-online.de (M. Grob u. S. Hitzler) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Hi Message-ID: Heyla listsibs, first of all I wish you all a happy new year and I give anybody on this list a warm embrace. Also a hearty welcome to all Newbies. I am an old newby if you want, having just started in December. Girl, am I glad to learn that I am not the only one around 30. I will cross the border and join the club in November. It's great to find other "oldsters" reading fantasy. My surroundings consider me as crazy and childish whenever I mention my literary tastes. Someone even said I was trying to escape reality. But isn't reading supposed to create and show you a glimpse of other worlds? Even books considered as high literature are made up, they are not real. What got me hooked on Misty? Her short stories in Sword and Sorceress. Later, when I discovered Oathbound in a book store I had to buy it and found it so brilliant (sp?) that I went out hunting for the anything else I could find. Unfortunately it is not so easy to get Misty's works in Germany so I have to wait until holidays in an english-speaking country or until my boyfriend has to go on a business trip. That is one of the reasons I haven't read the Mage Wars or the Storms trilogy yet: the last book of each series is still missing. So I couldn't join the kaestra'chern (sp?) debate. I agree with Autumnwing: I wouldn't re-write anything. One, Misty wrote it for a purpose. Two, life doesn't always work out as you wish. Bad things happen, unpleasant things happen, illogical things happen. That's life and I like Misty's books for their realism. I can`t judge Owlflight because I didn`t even know that it existed before I joined the list. I also agree with "all the Elspeth-bashing is unfair". As I mentioned before, I didn't like her because for me she has always been the Brat. But I have to admit that she underwent some great development during the Winds trilogy. She isn't flawless but none of Misty's characters is. That's why I like her books. The characters have depth and this includes faults and tempers. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:23:35 +0800 From: "Angie" To: Subject: Re: Re-writing Message-ID: <01bd1829$4456b1e0$LocalHost-+AT+-default> Heyla all! (To newbies, non-newbies and old newbies....) HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! on the re-writing streak we are all on... ;) I don't think any of the books should be re-written (although SG _Was_ one long yawn) not every one has the same tastes as you, so it wouldn't be fair if you change the book (which someone else enjoyed)... point: I hated SG... my friend thought it was the best book after all the LHMs. And what is this thing against thw Winds Trilogy? It ain't that bad, people! I happen to like Winds of Change v. much... Please note: I have finally "aknowledged"(sp?) my net handle... ;) Just remember me as the long-winded one, that'll do! ;) ( ) Wind to thy Wings ) ( Shadowblade mindmate to Raul <====+====> Elven Archer-Mage of Fairgrove >>~~~~~> | | Lady of OOPS, NoIsE ApPrENticE!!!!! | | Grand Dame of The Order of Namers | | Check out my homepage at ~> | | http://members.tripod.com/~Shadowblade \/ (self-advertising, gotta hate it! ;)) "It's a small thing to accept people for what they are; if we really love them we must want them to be what they are." ---Alain, a French philosopher and essayist ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 20:57:00 +0700 From: Femmy Syahrani To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 1445 Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980103205700.00694fd8-+AT+-pop03.ca.us.ibm.net> Heartspring wrote, >I can't believe that no one could hate Falconsbane/Ma'ar/Leareth for >what he has done... >All of these, >plus his personality, causes, no, forces, someone to not like him...I >don't think I hate him because, for goodness's sake, he's a character in >a book, but I know, that if someone like him existed today, I would be >hard-pressed to find a redeeming characteristic... I agree that if Falconsbane exist in the real world, I would probably hate him in a second. But he IS a character in a book, and I need more to make me hate him. Just like I don't "fall in love" with the hero(ine) in every book unless the hero(ine) really IS lovable, I don't immediately hate every villain in books. I don't have a problem liking the good characters in Misty's books, and I certainly hate Ancar for what he did to Kris and Talia, Hulda for what she did to Elspeth, the bandits who raped Vanyel. But Falconsbane is different. I don't like being told or forced by the story to hate him if I can't feel that "hatred" in me or in any of the main characters in the book. And I disagree that just because someone is a character in a book, that means I can't hate that person. If I can cry about, or laugh with, or or cheer for, or fall in love with a character, why can't I hate one? That's the main reason I read books. To feel emotions they create. Well, enough with my ramblings. Femmy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:24:44 -0500 From: Greg Wooledge To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Re-writing Message-ID: <19980103092444.11755-+AT+-phoenix.local> J. Aguiar (roman_87-+AT+-hotmail.com) wrote: > I > think part of the reason that we, as readers, are supposed to hate > Mornelithe Falconsbane is because he hasn't been the villain in ONE > series, but in THREE series, to date [...] Well, perhaps that's so, but I read Winds rather early (before having read the Vanyel books) so part of the emotional impact you mention didn't exist in my case. M. Grob u. S. Hitzler (GrobuHit-+AT+-t-online.de) wrote: > That is one of the reasons I haven't read the Mage Wars or the Storms trilogy > yet: the last book of each series is still missing. So I couldn't join the > kaestra'chern (sp?) debate. Your reasoning is sound for the Storms series, which is a traditional trilogy. However, with the Mage Wars, you really don't need to worry about not having the third book (Silver Gryphon). The Mage Wars aren't really a trilogy, because they don't tell one story. Rather, they're three separate books that just happen to share some of the same characters. And even then, the third book really doesn't have much overlap at all in terms of characters -- the protagonists in the third book are the children of the protagonists of the first two. So go ahead and read Black Gryphon and White Gryphon, and don't worry; just read Silver Gryphon whenever you find it. -- # Greg Wooledge # "Daddy, why do those people have to # wooledge-+AT+-kellnet.com # use Microsoft Windows?" # http://kellnet.com/wooledge/main.html # "Don't stare, son; it's not polite." # -- Crack RC5-64 now! http://www.distributed.net/rc5/ -- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 09:43:33 PST From: "Marie Jordan" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Re-writing, et al Message-ID: <19980103174333.9514.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> snip >during a show, but when Kethry died, and Kris I cried. I'm not ashamed (a> snip When did Kethry die???!!!!????!!!???? I know its pretty much given in one of the Winds Books that Tarma died, but does that automatically mean that Kethry died too? To answer the newbie questions My favorite book is The Oathbound. I discovered Misty through the Sword and Sorceress short stories and read Oathbound cover to cover about three times (at least). At one point I could recite passages! About Winds: Am I the only one that liked the trilogy? I admit, the first book annoyed the heck out of me with the constantly shifting veiwpoints, but I thought the story was very good. Rewriting: I would definitely rewrite the last two Storms books! (actually, the last one I couldn't even finish) They go verrrrrry sllloooowwwwllllyyyy and I was bored silly by the parts with Tremane. (getting out my flame-proof sheep now) bye for now Sunhawk ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:02:08 EST From: Riyan699 To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Re-writing, et al Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-03 13:59:15 EST, you write: << When did Kethry die???!!!!????!!!???? >> Possible Oathbreakers spoiler Kethry died in ummm I think it was Oathbreakers, when the mage she was battling set a trap. However, Tarma called for Kal'enel and she came and brought her back to life. At least i think thats what happened ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 15:02:17 PST From: "Raven Darkblade" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: It'd be a braid if I weren't too lazy to go back and get the Message-ID: <199801032302.PAA05376-+AT+-f140.hotmail.com> Heyla, one and all! I just got back from a trip to West Virginia and Maryland, visiting grandparents and my SO, and thumbed through 90-some-odd messages (to be fair, not all were from the list). So... Kestra'chern: An interesting snippet I noticed some time ago... 'kestra,' in Shin'a'in, means 'a casual friend,' and from shay'a'chern we can deduce that the suffix '-chern' means 'like oneself.' Yes, Amberdrake did the horizontal mambo with that horse-skirmisher. Or, as TBG put it, 'he did for her what he would not do for Conn Levas (p 105).' Conn Levas expected sex, and Amberdrake didn't give it to him. Re-writing: I wouldn't re-do anything, especially not By The Sword, which is my favorite of the Velgarth books. I would have liked to have seen a greater sense of danger/urgency in The White Gryphon, but I don't see how /my/ redoing it would help. What I'd like to get my hands on is the cover blurbs, which almost always seem to be wrong. Take the one for Magic's Pawn: it states that Van is born with his powers, and emphasized the Gate and wyrsa-summoning spells that he lended his powers to as the main problem in the book. And the one for TBG only covers the fact that Skan is late to return from his mission, making /that/ seem like the main problem. Mage Winds: I for one like Elspeth. She reminds me of me. And just because Talia de-Bratted her and taught her manners doesn't mean that she couldn't grow up to be stong-willed and ocasionally bitchy. Skif had me a bit thrown. All of a sudden he was serious and responsible, even though after Talia got hold of him (in regards to his trauma during his internship) he became largely his old irrepressable self again--see the end of Arrow's Flight and a large portion of Arrow's Fall. Falconsbane as a villain I had no problems with. This may stem from the fact that it's very, very easy for me to get behind the eyes of characters. Falconsbane is a sick and very twisted individual, and causes plenty of harm--see Starblade, Dawnfire, and Nyara. We see a lot more of him than we do of Leareth (admittedly, they're the same person, but..)--he's acknowledged as the villain for the entire trilogy. Leareth didn't even turn up until MPrice, and then not until Savil was killed. We only knew three of the Heralds he killed personally, and only one of them--Savil--was a char we'd known for a while. And even then we didn't meet him as anything but a sidelong reference to 'Master Dark' until the final scene. Now, I personally liked Leareth better as a villain, possibly because Van was a more sympathetic hero than Elspeth & co. I just don't see why Falconsbane was unsatifactory because he never did anything to the heroes themselves, when Leareth didn't do all that much himself. Oooh, my, I sound a bit twitchy again. Please forgive, I've been in a car too long. Take nothing I say personally. Kris: I cried. I liked him. From a certain standpoint, I was upset that he died. But I think it was a large dramatic part of the story, and added a great deal to it. The whole seeing the Havens thing, and the 'greatest joy preceded by greatest grief' bit. Keth: Kethry didn't die (that we saw. It is entirely probable that she was dead by the end of Storms, at least. We know Tarma died by Winds). She /almost/ died in Oathbreakers, but the Star-Eyed helped Need heal her at Tarma's request. I cried there too. I'll also note that I liked Storms, though I cried at the ending of Storm Breaking (I'm a crier. So?) and I /really/ wanted to smack Firesong. WG and SG I can take or leave, but... anyway. Hm. I think that may actually be about it. Sheep for the long post, I've been gone a bit long. Zha'hai'allav'a, Raven Darkblade Holy Hand of the Goddess of Elves \ \\ \%, ,' , ,. \%\,';/J,";";";;,,. \%;((`);)));`;;,., ,`;))((;`,`((;(;;);;,` ;`((```))`~ ``; );(;));;, `-+AT+- `(( `), (;;);;;;` / `) `` /;~ `;;;;;;;);, / , ` ,/` / (`;;(;;;;, (o /)_/` / ,);;;`;;;;;`,, `~` `~` ` ``;, ``;" ';, `' `' `' abbykat-+AT+-hotmail.com http://www.angelfire.com/ky/Ashke/ http://dragonlance.justbecause.org/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:03:41 GMT From: Beth Cavanaugh To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Kethry's Death Message-ID: <199801040203.CAA24448-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> >Possible Oathbreakers spoiler > "But raking her from neck to knee with outsized tallons. She collapsed, clutching herself with pain; it seized her as she fell with the lower two of its four arms. it lifted her as she foungt to get free-and broke her back accross its knee, as a man would break a dry branch. It goes on to say the Need could not heal her spine...could only block pain... But I was wrong. Just as she was going to die, Tarma called on her Goddess. What I should have said was I cried when I thought Kethery died.... Sorry for the confusion, EIlis Zhai'helleva! _//\ /=========\_ _/ o- \ /////\_\_\_\_\_ /*_\_ \////////\_\_\_\_\_ \|-/-- \////////_\ \ \ \ \ / / ///////\_\_\_\_\_\_\ / //\_\_\ _\_\ _\ \ __\_\_\_\_\ _\ _ _ \ / / \_ \_\/\ _\ /// \\ / _/\ / \_ /\_\ _\ \\\_/\\/ /_____--------/ /___/\---\ _\ ___/\_/ /-------/ / \ \ /o-/o-/ \/------------/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 21:11:08 EST From: "J. Aguiar" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 1445 Message-ID: <19980104021109.22677.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> I suppose I am forced to hate Falconsbane because of his violations against the Tayledras...Don't get me wrong, he did quite a bit to Elspeth and Skif, but it was only because they happened to be allied to K'Sheyna...I am also forced to hate Falconsbane because he wasn't JUST Falconsbane---in part, he was in charge of those bandits that raped Vanyel...Falconsbane is more than the Changechild that violated An'desha, raped him mentally, desecrated his body, destroyed the wills and personalities of both Nyara and Starblade, and played tricks on the Tayledras, Shin'a'in, Valdemarens, and the Hardornens. Half of Falconsbane's crimes weren't in the Winds Trilogy. You can consider each character, of the three documented cases (Ma'ar, Leareth, and Falconsbane), a separate being, but when the chips are down, it's the same soul within a different body, hidden away in the Nether planes of the magical realms of Velgarth. Falconsbane's SOUL is evil...It is a perversion of something that is natural and should be loathed for what it is...I will grant that souls can come back in different forms, but they come back with the consent of higher beings...Falconsbane removed himself from the Circle (reference to Tanya Huff's Bard's trilogy) and ought to have his kigh sung back to the Nine Hells where it belonged nine centuries ago... Zhai'helleva, Heartspring ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:23:02 GMT From: Beth Cavanaugh To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: braid Message-ID: <199801040223.CAA24665-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Am I the only one that liked the trilogy? No, beacuse I like it too, especcially the end of the third one... I can't believe that no one could hate Falconsbane/Ma'ar/Leareth I just don't think Falconsbane was as good of a bad guy. He just didn't touch me like a good bad guy. I Really dislike Ancar ( I try to avoid hate, its too strong) he was directly involved with the main characters, which in turn (at least for me) directly involves the reader. 'he did for her what he would not do for Conn Levas' Prehaps this was sez, prehaps not, I belive that is Misty leaving up to the reader to decide what happend, but I'd like to point out a fact.... "a kestra'chern was not a bedmate-for-hire, although plenty of people had that impression." This statement, and others expressing the exact same thing, is mention quite a few times in the book. It is in my opinion that if sex was a regular pratice, or even a once in a while thing, wouldn't that go aginst the above? One last question, What in the world is a perchi??? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:19:12 EST From: GodesCarla To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Skif's new trauma (re: this would be a braid if...) Message-ID: <27000bf1.34aeffb3-+AT+-aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-03 19:16:00 EST, you write: Raven Darkblade said: << Skif had me a bit thrown. All of a sudden he was serious and responsible, even though after Talia got hold of him (in regards to his trauma during his internship) he became largely his old irrepressable self again--see the end of Arrow's Flight and a large portion of Arrow's Fall. >> Ahh...but if you recall, Skif had a much more serious trauma, that he releated to Wintermoon. TextEvd: Pg. 113-115 in WoChange: (Paraphrased) Skif relates to Wintermoon his experience of living with a family in Hardorn. He was helping people escape over the border to Valdemar while living with them. He came to love the family as his own. Then, he got a message saying that ther was someone who needed his help escaping. That person had to stay a while with Skif and 'his' family, then Skif brought him accross the Border...or thought he did. Skif had to check back with the people the person had stayed with. When he got back to 'his' family, he found that all but the one daughter had been murdered violently. Skif says: "'...then I went back. Against orders. The bastard shouldn't have told so many stories; he gave me more clues than he knew, and I know cities. I tracked him down.' And then I did to him what had been done to them before I killed him. Skif...continued. 'Nobody ever said or did anything, even thought htey must have known what I did. And I'd do it again, I sswear I would--' 'But part of you is sickened,' Wintermoon said softly." Etc, etc, going on to say that Skif was traumatized with the experience, but he could go on with his life and learn from it. So, while it was on his conscience, Skif was kind of heartsick, and so became more sober and serious. Not to mention that he got older. Autumnwing ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 22:36:00 -0500 From: Shadowdancer To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Braid Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980103223600.007eb490-+AT+-internet_link> -----Quoted Section--- I think all of this Elspeth-bashing in unfair. Everyone seems to think that just because Talia managed to break her out of her grossly self-indulgent, officious Brat-self that she is supposed to become this flawless paragon of behavior. Frankly, I think she is behaving just like any other late-adolescent would behave when trying to assert her independence. Heralds don't have to be lacking in grit - they just have to considerably less selfish than the average person. Let's give the illustrious Ms. lackey some credit for writing a character that is a little more complex than what some people seem to want. As for Skif: A) He is somewhat older than he was in the Arrows series, and B) Something happened to him that would tend to change a person. Anyway... Surecrow ----End Quoted Section----- I quite agree. I like Elspeth, and I think that Skif took his friendship too far. (The leaving candy etc. thing.) I kind of know how she felt, when he decided to turn up the heat. Also in reply to some of the bios: I am a married, almost 26 female, and I started reading Misty when I was 14 or 15. I love reading, horses and freeform dancing. Heyla to all the newbies. Many welcomes and hugs. Hope you all had Happy Holidays and are having a good New Year. Wind to thy Wings & Never give up on the Dance of Life Shadowdancer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 23:07:34 -0500 From: Stasia To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Just a little FYI... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980103230734.006f24e4-+AT+-mail.gte.net> Just got my Monthly SFBC thingie, and when I opened it up, I was in heaven. Not only is the monthly semi-feature a set-of-two containing Owlflight and Four & Twenty Blackbirds for $16.98 if ordered before 2/13, BUT they also have a flier section with ALL the Valdemar books... You can order the books individually , or the books NOT in a 3-in-1 for reduced prices when you order all 3 OR, you can order all the Valdemar books for $117.98. They also have the Bardic Voices books on sale individually or the if you buy all 3, you get a reduced price thing. So, get 'em while they're hot, cause SFBC is really into Misty this month! Hope you all had a wonderful holiday, and got lots of Misty to read Take care! Wind to Thy Wings, Amber ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 20:47:59 PST From: "Raven Darkblade" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Skif's new trauma (re: this would be a braid if...) Message-ID: <19980104044800.27103.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> <> Touche, Autumnwing. I had, somehow, completely forgotten about that. I wonder why? Anyhow, I stand corrected. ***** As for perchi, they appear to be what the kestra'chern are not; bedmates for hire. Though due to the wartime situation, they seemed (as far as I could tell from the references in BG) to become sort of pseudo-kestra'chern, offering sex as a method of soothing and/or healing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is the impression I was given. Zha'hai'allav'a, Raven Darkblade, Holy Hand of the Goddess of Elves \ \\ \%, ,' , ,. \%\,';/J,";";";;,,. \%;((`);)));`;;,., ,`;))((;`,`((;(;;);;,` ;`((```))`~ ``; );(;));;, `-+AT+- `(( `), (;;);;;;` / `) `` /;~ `;;;;;;;);, / , ` ,/` / (`;;(;;;;, (o /)_/` / ,);;;`;;;;;`,, `~` `~` ` ``;, ``;" ';, `' `' `' abbykat-+AT+-hotmail.com http://www.angelfire.com/ky/Ashke/ http://dragonlance.justbecause.org/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:51:40 +0800 From: "Angie" To: Subject: Drake/Firesong/kigh Message-ID: <01bd18cc$7214c240$LocalHost-+AT+-default> Raven Darkblade wrote: :grandparents and my SO, and thumbed through 90-some-odd messages (to be :fair, not all were from the list). So... That's not so bad. I had 73 messages in 2 days. gods... :Yes, Amberdrake did the horizontal mambo with that horse-skirmisher. Or, :as TBG put it, 'he did for her what he would not do for Conn Levas (p :105).' Conn Levas expected sex, and Amberdrake didn't give it to him. I took it to be that Drake had offered the horse-skirmisher comfort and _real_ compassion. With Conn, he was just business. He gave the h-s respect and really put himeself into the job, you know. With Conn it was an "I could hardly care less" attitude. :I'll also note that I liked Storms, though I cried at the ending of :Storm Breaking (I'm a crier. So?) and I /really/ wanted to smack :Firesong. I liked the tantrums. I thought they were erm... "cute"??? So sue me, I'm wierd. ;) Why smack him? I think he ought to be pitied. The guy lost his world, give him a break. no one would ever fawn over him again. (that's a good thing, but imagine the shock it would give him, put yourself in his position ;) ) But then again. I'm biased. Personally FS is my fave character (*whispers* van is too goody *hides from OAM*) Heartspring wrote: : Falconsbane removed himself from the Circle (reference to Tanya Huff's Bard's trilogy) :and ought to have his kigh sung back to the Nine Hells where it belonged nine centuries :ago... *from secret hiding place*That's an interesting statement. Granting that no one in Velgarth could have sung his kigh back... they wouldn't have wanted to step within a mile's radius of FB... still... I think Firesong's way of doing it had been more spectacular. ;) HAPPY NEW YEAR! ( ) Wind to thy Wings ) ( Shadowblade mindmate to Raul <====+====> Elven Archer-Mage of Fairgrove >>~~~~~> | | Lady of OOPS, NoIsE ApPrENticE!!!!! | | Grand Dame of The Order of Namers | | Check out my homepage at ~> | | http://members.tripod.com/~Shadowblade \/ (self-advertising, gotta hate it! ;)) "It's a small thing to accept people for what they are; if we really love them we must want them to be what they are." ---Alain, a French philosopher and essayist ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1446 **********************************