MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1531 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Fluff and questions by "Raven Darkblade" 2) Re: Braid: stereotypes/McCaffrey/Rolan/Norton/Disney/etc. by troll-+AT+-netcomuk.co.uk 3) Question From a Newbie by Storm 4) Braid & Fluff by Shadowdancer 5) Re: Question From a Newbie by troll-+AT+-netcomuk.co.uk 6) Re: Question From a Newbie by Shadowdancer 7) Re: Braid: stereotypes/McCaffrey/Rolan/Norton/Disney/etc. by Greg Wooledge 8) Gays/OT by "Becca Gordon" 9) Re: Question From a Newbie/Oathblood by Ambyrglow 10) Braid on lotsa stuff, and mucha Fluff! :) by dprono-+AT+-planet.eon.net 11) Braid - Disney, etc. by "John E Morris" 12) rather long braid...high misty content by Niki Nibbe 13) Re: Question From a Newbie/Oathblood by Paustinnew 14) a little of everything. by littlebees-+AT+-bbs.tsf.com 15) Braid:Talia/Elspeth/Fluff by "Terrae N. Loucks" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:25:11 PST From: "Raven Darkblade" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Fluff and questions Message-ID: <19980321212512.27227.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> Heartsong pondered: <> Elspeth did get quite a bit of magical power. When she and Skif rode into Bolthaven (?), Quenten is taken aback at the sheer power that surrounds her. The difference is that Firesong was trained from childhood, while Elspeth did not even know she had the mage-gift until she was already an adult. Zha'hai'allav'a, Raven Darkblade, Holy Hand of the Goddess of Elves, and Mor the raven, her familiar \ \\ \%, ,' , ,. \%\,';/J,";";";;,,. \%;((`);)));`;;,., ,`;))((;`,`((;(;;);;,` ;`((```))`~ ``; );(;));;, `-+AT+- `(( `), (;;);;;;` / `) `` /;~ `;;;;;;;);, / , ` ,/` / (`;;(;;;;, (o /)_/` / ,);;;`;;;;;`,, `~` `~` ` ``;, ``;" ';, `' `' `' abbykat-+AT+-hotmail.com http://www.angelfire.com/ky/Ashke/ http://dragonlance.justbecause.org/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:22:18 GMT From: troll-+AT+-netcomuk.co.uk To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid: stereotypes/McCaffrey/Rolan/Norton/Disney/etc. Message-ID: <1998321222424741-+AT+-netcomuk.co.uk> Councillor Cennyd wrote: >Two possibilities. I'm not sure how easy the alloy electrum is to make. >If it is difficult to make, it might be rarer than gold, although it is >actually only partly gold and partly silver. The other possibility is >that they may be referring to naturally occuring electrum which may be >very rare. Hmmm. A third possibility is that maybe Misty didn't know >what electrum was and was basing her use of it on the D&D usage which has >it listed as more expensive than gold or silver, IIRC. > As far as the 'real' world is concerned, there is no such thing as 'naturally occurring' electrum. It's an alloy of gold and silver, not a natural element. Of course, the geology/geochemistry of Velgarth may be quite different from Earth...or, as you say, Misty might simply not know what electrum is. Muranog Shadowbane Troll Adept, Knight of Bluff and Bachelor of Geology and his bondmate Sable, the giant black war sheep ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 18:38:21 -0000 From: Storm To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Question From a Newbie Message-ID: <890522514.1013298.0-+AT+-x-mansion.demon.co.uk> Hi Listsibs I'm new to this list and have been lurking for a while. I've taken the plunge to see if any one knows what happened to Seleney's parents. I know her Grandfather was assassinated, but am unsure where to find the rest of the information? Storm ---- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 18:54:29 -0500 From: Shadowdancer To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Braid & Fluff Message-ID: <199803212351.SAA01611-+AT+-piedmont.net> FallenAngel Wrote: >Well, I've done that. But I do it watching movies more often. Did you ever >see Jurassic Park? You know the part where the heroes are climbing into the >ceiling to get away from the Raptors? Well, I bursted out laughing at the >point when the Raptor jumps at them (causing everyone in the theater to >*gasp*) and when the T-Rex eats that one guy as he was sitting in the >bathroom. Don't ask me why, I wasn't able to explain then and I can't now ~ >I just have this really strange sense of humor. I don't think that you have a strange sence of humor. I laughed too. :) But then again, a lot of people think that I do have a very strange sence of humor. I think this part of the movie was suposed to be a little bit of comic relief. ***** Shadowspun & Hobgood Wrote: (snip) >Yfandes even says she knew what Choosing >Vanyel would mean when she did. Gwena was "created" because the >Companioons thought the first Herald-Mage in 600 years should have a >special Companion, although, to me it would have been more logical to >have one of the old Herald-Mages be her Companion. A little more >experience than Gwena, who is actually 14 years YOUNGER than Elspeth, >would probably have been more logical. Plotting-wise, no, but logic (or >my own cracked version of it) dictates otherwise. The only problem I >have with the precognition thing is that it puts the Comp. on a higher >level than I interpret them being on. Yes, they are from another plane, >or whatever you want to call it, but they aren't perfect. Well Van says that Gwena is on the same age level as Elspeth. Who knows what Gwena went through, before she was grove born. Maybe she used to be a mage kyree or some other creature. Maybe she had some training before she was effectively born into Valgarth. Who knows, but nobodys perfect. Not even their Gods. ***** Cennydd Councilor of Mist Wrote: >Actually, I don't like Larry's artwork at all. I don't think that the >characters look anything like the descriptions in the text. Although, >that brings up the question of whether the mismatch is a failing in the >artwork or a failing in the author's ability to describe the characters in >words. =) I agree with you on the artwork statement, but not Misty's ability to describe her characters. But then again I have a very active immagination. I like some of Larry's artwork, but none of the Companion pictures, or any of his early people pictures. I still don't like some of them now. Also how about the first picture of the griffins in WofFate. Here they have almost human hands. Talk about very much off the discription. Sometime ago someone wrote that they thought Misty's writing was going down hill. I think that this started when Larry started co-writting with her. (that her books started going downhill) I haven't read any of Larry's stand alone books, so I don't really know if I like his style of writing. (Saying this as I put on my flame proof cape) ;) I have read Owlflight, and I liked it just fine. ********************************************************************* Terrae N. Loucks Wrote: >A slight bough from the red headed girl as her small fur ball leaps from >her shoulder. I thank you for the heated towels Eve. They will be welcomed >when needed. Please may I be called Heartsong by members of the list. I >did not realize my given name showed up on my outgoing mail. I think >Heartsong fit me better. It would be appreciated and my familiar gives >everyone a warm feeling for the cold days. (Snip) >P.S. Apache tear bounces overto Lurker and rubs noses. Then she begins to >purr and leaves two small Apache Tears on chains at Lurker's feet for him >and Eve. You are quite welcome, but it is Lurker & Shadowdancer. ((Aside to edititor: Whoever has the posting of the story, please change this.)) I also thank-you very much for the Apache Tears. We will wear will wear them with honor >Lisa, Claude and Uni wander about the halls of mist, tring to find >certain listsibs. They catch slight of the listsib who sploshed them, >and sneak up behind Yvonne and push her into a pool of water, after >which they offer her a dry towel *s* >Catching sight of Becca, Lady Niki and Shadowdancer they wander over to >thank them for their explanation on sheep and other matters, and give >them small chocolate sheep as a great big thatk you for their help! "You are also most welcome." says Shadowdancer. "If you ever have any more questions, please don't hesitate to ask anyone here in the Halls of Mist." >From a dark corner of the mist a tall person slowly steps into the light. >He is wearing simple clothes with a green hooded cape covering his features. >"I am Taynar Fenrir", he says with a simple smile and bow, " and these >are the twins, Beltain and Samhain." >From the mist two wolves step forward and bow thier heads to one and all. >Picking a spot where he can observe the dance and music Taynar sits >whith each hand carefully stroking his two companions. Lurker catches sight of some of his breathern, and calles for Shadowdancer to come with him to meet them. ** Hail to the Walkers of the Wind and Shadows ** Says Lurker and Shadowdancer in union to the twins Beltain and Samhain. "Hail to Taynar Fenrir who has been chosen by such nobel compainons as such are these two." says Shadowdancer. "Come and join me in some dancing, while our furry frinds catch up on old times." With this Shadowdancer leads Taynar to the dance floor and procedes to sweep him off his feet in dancing the Wind Dance of the Wolves. ************************** Wind to thy Wings & Never give up on the Dance of Life Shadowdancer & mind mate Lurker (A very large Gray Wolf) ~~~~~~~~~~~ Member of Mistic Circle Lady of many books Owner of two cats, & two dogs Keeper of many animals when extended family on vacation ~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 00:12:23 GMT From: troll-+AT+-netcomuk.co.uk To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Question From a Newbie Message-ID: <199832201438118467-+AT+-netcomuk.co.uk> :Newbie, Mindmate!: the huge black war sheep mindsent. :So I see, and we're the first to notice!: the Troll Adept replied happily. With a sudden *POUNCE* the newly arrived Storm was knocked down by a large troll and heartily licked by Sable, the giant sheep. I don't know where you got your information about Selenay's grandfather (Roald, the Herald from Oathbreakers)being assassinated. Selenay's FATHER was assassinated during the Tedrel Wars, which led to Selenay becoming Queen. Wind to thy wings, salt water to thy hair and chocolate sheep to thy larder, Muranog Shadowbane Troll Adept and Knight of Fluff and his bondmate Sable, the giant black war sheep ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:03:55 -0500 From: Shadowdancer To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Question From a Newbie Message-ID: troll-+AT+-netcomuk.co.uk Wrote: >:Newbie, Mindmate!: the huge black war sheep mindsent. >:So I see, and we're the first to notice!: the Troll Adept replied happily. >With a sudden *POUNCE* the newly arrived Storm was knocked down by a large >troll and heartily licked by Sable, the giant sheep. I too greet thee: Storm Many dry heated towels to you for whenever that kelpie person gets around to drenching you with salt water. Me now stepping away quickly, so that I won't be in the way when you get *pounced* on by some of the others. This is their way of saying HI. So don't be startled or upset by it. Also a cold wet nose, and a lick from my wolf friend Lurker. Wind to thy Wings & Never give up on the Dance of Life Shadowdancer & mind mate Lurker (A very large Gray Wolf) ~~~~~~~~~~~ Member of Mistic Circle Lady of many books Owner of two cats, & two dogs Keeper of many animals when extended family on vacation ~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:59:25 -0500 From: Greg Wooledge To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid: stereotypes/McCaffrey/Rolan/Norton/Disney/etc. Message-ID: <19980321205925.15294-+AT+-phoenix.local> Kenneth Allen Hyde (kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu) wrote: > Hmmm. A third possibility is that maybe Misty didn't know > what electrum was and was basing her use of it on the D&D usage which has > it listed as more expensive than gold or silver, IIRC. First Edition AD&D rules list 1 GP (gold piece) = 2 EP (electrum pieces) = 20 SP (silver pieces). The coins were all supposed to be the same weight. ObMisty: I can't recall what currency Valdemar and the surrounding kingdoms use. Is it "marks" like on Pern? (I think I saw "marks" mentioned somewhere in a Misty book, but maybe I'm confusing Misty and McCaffrey.) Is there an official minted currency, or do they use a variety of different coins from different sources, assigning value based solely on metal content? -- "Daddy, why do those people have to | Greg Wooledge use Microsoft Windows?" | wooledge-+AT+-kellnet.com "Don't stare, son; it's not polite." | http://www.kellnet.com/wooledge/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 18:07:08 PST From: "Becca Gordon" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Gays/OT Message-ID: <19980322020708.27822.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> > Mark the tax zombie said > My apoligizes for my tirade but I am sick and tired of the whining I hear, >be it racial, sexual, or what ever. Everytime someone tells me >I OWE them something I immediately get ticked. Thank you Mark that is exactly the point I was trying to make. You put it very well. I agree with you totaly! -NightFire ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:41:18 EST From: Ambyrglow To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Question From a Newbie/Oathblood Message-ID: <76fab555.35148860-+AT+-aol.com> > Hi Listsibs > I'm new to this list and have been lurking for a while. I've taken the > plunge to see if any one knows what happened to Seleney's parents. I know > her Grandfather was assassinated, but am unsure where to find the rest of > the information? > Storm Seashimmer's ears perk up as she hears the sound of another newbie. A quick glance around the room shows her his (I hope it's a he ) location, and she sneaks up behind him, still invisable. Carefully, she positions the bucket of sea water. Then ::SPLOSH!::. Storm turns around quickly, searching for the source of the dunking. Only Seashimmer's eyes show, as the invisability spell begins to fail. "Welcome to the list, Storm. I see you've already recieved a towel. Visit us from the realms of lurkerdom more often. I'm afraid I can't answer your question, however." I just got a copy of Oathblood today, and prompty set aside Storm Rising to read it (as well as Under the Tuscan Sun, The Good Earth, The Girl With the Silver Eyes, The Summer Tree, and all the other hundreds of books I'm in the middle of ). I haven't gone through the S&S anthologies in a while, and I enjoyed reaquainting myself with the stories. I haven't gotten to the new stories yet, but they look good. I like her little introductions where she explains away many of the "Mistyakes" that we've been arguing about for a long time. Especially the bit about why she invented Leslac :-). I'm just glad the book came out in paperback. ^*^Claire Seashimmer Apprentice Dunker Acolyte of OOPS ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:11:00 From: dprono-+AT+-planet.eon.net To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Braid on lotsa stuff, and mucha Fluff! :) Message-ID: <3.0.3.16.19980321211100.226fe26e-+AT+-planet.eon.net> Heyla to the List! Once more the wet Yvonne puts her sopping $0.02 worrth into the fray! Anna wrote: > (Proud owner of the modern horse, a '81 Yamaha Maxim and it's GREEN. I > love green) You know, that's kinda funny. -I- personally happen to like green cars too, but me Mum has a weird superstition concerning them. She won't ride in them. This has no Misty bearing. Just a weird thing. He he he. Umm... err... nevermind. Oh, and BTW - *Yvonne grabs her Enchanted Bucket* SPLOSH!! Ha ha! Hope that you got a towel! :) Shadowdancer wrote: > Who knows > what Gwena went through, before she was grove born. Maybe she used to be a > mage kyree or some other creature. Maybe she had some training before she > was effectively born into Valgarth. I think that the Grove-Born Companions are just spirits, not reincarnated at all. Thay have no 'real world' experiance to draw upon, and therefore are just as flawed as the averege human. But I ALSO think that they have some sort of special powers or something to make up for the lack of experiance. Any ideas? Maybe forshadowing. No wait.. that's a literary device. Dang it! I can't remember the word.... when you can tell the future. Like Dawnfire and what's his name could, but only vaguely. Bad memory night... Cennydd wrote: > Actually, I don't like Larry's artwork at all. I don't think that the > characters look anything like the descriptions in the text. Although, > that brings up the question of whether the mismatch is a failing in the > artwork or a failing in the author's ability to describe the characters in > words. =) I don't like Larry's work either. Too buisy, too dark (as in tone. I'm flipping through a handy now-too-well-read copy of SG at the moment, so I can't say about the other books.) and all that pointalism (for all those non-Arrt people out there, that's when an artist (?) uses a bazillion tiny little dots to make a picture.) must have driven him dotty! That's probibly why his co-authored books aren't quite as good (IMNSHO) as the purely Misty books. Worrking with an insane co-author can do that. PS. Yes, I have had the misfortune to have to do pointalism on more than one occasion. That is why I am the person (?) that I am today. BWA HA HA HA HA HA!! ;) On that same topic though, I thought that the picture of Vikteren in BG was good, as was the pic of Karal in SW. Rare occurence, that. Ambyrglow wrote: > What makes Empathy so different from Mindspeaking or Mage gift > in this respect? Earlier in the book it says "anyone can be broken"; > why not Empaths? I get the feeling I'm missing something here. . . I think that you just couldn't have an evil empath period. If they were cruel to people, they couldn't HELP but feel the misery and pain that they caused, and IMHO too much of that would drive them insane or cause them to burn out. The rest is entirly Fluff. There are alot of newbies mentioned, and if I din't mentio you, please forgive me! RL has a way of sneaking up on you and killing yourr memory. :) Yvonne Shadowshape Our Troll-Adept wrote: > The Troll Adept turns to his fellow Knight, Yvonne Shadowshape, and > presents her with the enchanted bucket. "This blue bucket is so > bespelled that it shall never be empty: no matter how many people > are sploshed by it, there shall always be seawater in it." "I thank you, Milord for thine fine gift!" Yvonne sweeps an elegant curtsey in his direction, spreding her shifting, watercolored robes out in a mesmirising fan about her. "I shall do none but good with it, and I thnk thee once more! Thine thoughtfullness shall be never forgotten." Shadowspun: Yay! Another Water-fey person! I shall forever concider thee as a Friend for thy intrest in all things mythalogical and Wet. Many Sea side blessings to thee! :) >Lisa, Claude and Uni wander about the halls of mist, tring to find >certain listsibs. They catch slight of the listsib who sploshed them, >and sneak up behind Yvonne and push her into a pool of water, after >which they offer her a dry towel *s* Yvonne laughs and towels herself off vigorously, although it does nothing for the wet state of her hair. With a mocking bow and a wicked smile towards the self-named Stoogies, she suddenly transformes into a pillar of water which creates a puddle on the floor before seeping through the cracks in the tile. > Then she sends in a flock off sheep, each carrying an Apache Tear > (obsidian) that they lay down at the feet of Yvonne and Flaimcat. :Thank you ever-so-much for the apache tear, Apache Tear & Heartsong!: >"I am Taynar Fenrir", he says with a simple smile and bow, " and these >are the twins, Beltain and Samhain." >From the mist two wolves step forward and bow thier heads to one and all. A wild yell echoes across the Hall and many jump in fright? Surprise? For no apparent reason? Anyways, a slight young woman with dripping dark brown hair hurtles across the floor towards the two newbies that have been foolish enough to announce themselves. * SALT WATER SPLOSH!* "And a very happy hello to you and your familiars! Are you perchance a Druid?" > With a sudden *POUNCE* the newly arrived Storm was knocked down by a large > troll and heartily licked by Sable, the giant sheep. Yvonne breaks off her almost conversation with the dripping maybe Druid and slips off through the croud to where the THUNK of a trollish *POUNCE* was heard. "AH HA!!" The Enchanted Bucket flies, and Storm is immediatly SPLOSHed most wetly. Amazingly, the water dosent even touch Muranog and his sheep or the surrounding croud. "Many wet welcomes to you, Storm! Hope that you enjoy your stay!" Shadowdancer - perchance you spoil mine fun? *Impish look* Maybe mine bucket shall fly and thou shalt not be so lucky! ;) Nightfire wrote: > I didn't make much of an interance when I joined the hall again so I'm > making up for it now that I have some time!*g* "Methinks that thine new enterance is deserving of a proper hello?" Yvonne whispers in Nightfire's ear. *SPLOSH!* Happy once-more-joining! :) > :Heyla. I am StarFire.: Ah HA! Yet another innocent newbie! *Yvonne sneaks stealthily up behind StarFire, her watercolored (although thankfully not wateropaque) robes swishing softly on the floor* SPLOSH! "Hello, welcome, nice to have you!" Etain - a big SPLOSH to you too! :) Nice to know that RL has left off it's suffocating grip on you and that you can once more enter the Halls! *Once more Yvonne is travelling under the shaking tiles in water-form, sneaking up behind another newbie - Katie! Suddenlyy she stops and comes up through the cracks, bucket in hand.* SPLOSH! Concider yourself welcomed, Listsib! > "Although you are not a newbie, milady, you have been most > helpful and friendly to those who are new to our gathering, and so > I deem you worthy to bear the Friendship Ring. Wear it for a week > and then pass it on to another worthy bearer in turn." "I seem to be once more the object of thine favor, Milord!" Yvonne smiles delightedly and admires the ring on her finger. "First the most enchanting bucket, and now the Ring! I am most grateful!" She then blows a kiss to the Troll and invites him onto the dance floor. "I may not be a good dancer, but I CAN have fun!" :) Many many good times to you all, and I really admire any who actually made it this far!! :) :) :) Lemon lime fruity sugary summery sheep to you all! :) Yvonne Shadowshape, bonded to Chiti, Chosen by Korla Goddess of Kelpies, Selkies, and the other Water-Borne Knight of Fluff Bearer of the Enchanted Bucket *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&* The Nerids pluck their lyres Where the green translucncy beats And with motionless eyes at gaze Make minstrily in the streets -Walter de la Mare, Sunk Lyoness ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 00:11:56 -0500 From: "John E Morris" To: "Mercedes Lackey List" Subject: Braid - Disney, etc. Message-ID: <01bd5551$08c9d980$f9109cd1-+AT+-default> >And I don't worry to much about >historical accuracy (particularly when we're talking about stories that >were fiction in the first place, such as Hercules and the Hunchback). Oo - be careful about refering to Hercules as fiction. While The Hunchback of Notre Dame was a work purely created from Victor Hugo's imagination, the Hercules stories were part of an oral tradition and an integral part of one of the great cultural empires of the Western world. Along with the bible and a few other sources, Greek mythology provides one of the cornerstones of our literature. Aren't you a linguist? You should know better....;) >But I ALSO think that they have >some sort of special powers or something to make up for the lack of >experience. Any ideas? Maybe forshadowing. Makes you think of all the movies and tv shows that have used the idea of an angel incarnated upon earth - they have all sorts of divine insight, but lack real-world savvy. Think Clarence with an attitude... OK - I've waited until the end to respond to the whole stereotype thing, largely because I wanted a chance to cool off. Let me begin by saying that I agree with those who have said that we can choose whether or not to purchase an author's work, just as we can choose to see or not to see a movie or to listen or not to listen to a radio broadcast. My complaint is not with those bigoted and shallow authors who deliberately choose to libel a group or groups, but with those authors who think they are doing something good but are in reality perpetrating a stereotype. It is my opinion that, in the book in question, Ms. McCaffery was trying to use gay characters because she thought the group should be represented in fiction. As it happened her characters were stereotypical, and to some of us, mildly offensive. She should have done better research. That is my position on this matter.. As to the other issue, that of "whining" I have this to say. I will say this calmly and rationaly, because as some of you may have noticed I have something of a temper and don't want an explosion to get in the way of what I have to say. Here it is. We who seek equality are not whiners. We are not looking for a handout; we do not blame society and an unfeeling public for everything that is wrong in our lives. We do not use our differences as excuses for our failiure or fault others for not being as we are. We do not seek special treatment; we do not ask for more than is our due. What we do is strive and fight every day against a society that condems us for what we were born to be. Whatever our differences, there are those who would pass laws against us. Whatever our similarities, there are those who would deny them. We are spat upon, beaten up, kicked out of our apartments and homes, fired from our jobs, shunned by our fellow man , legislated against and relegated to subordinancy. Some of us can not join the military. Some of us could not join the military until cannon-fodder was needed. Some of us are allowed to join but not allowed to fight. We are considered security risks. We are thought of as unequal to the majority. We are named incompetent. We are too stupid, too volatile, too emotional to do the job. God hates us, God loves us but condems what we do, God denies our existence and God wishes us dead. We do not whine, we fight. We are sunk in stygian darkness, in enveloping shadow; trapped in the morass of willful stupidity and sheeplike acceptance. We fight, stepping over the bodies of our fallen comrades who have willingly given of themselves so that one day the next generation will not have to say "I fight", but can instead say "I live." We do not whine. We never say "You owe". We only say "We are..." We are Jew, Muslim and Catholic, Homosexual, Male, Female, Black, White, Yellow, Red, Fat, Skinny - everyone who is discriminated against. We will not accept it any longer. We will no longer tolerate laws against us or conspiracies of silence. The hounds of war have been loosed and, like Icaraus we do not fear to fly to close to the sun, if in doing so we will only see its brilliance for one brief moment. We do not whine. We live. We Are. We will not be denied. John E. Morris ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:51:36 -0800 From: Niki Nibbe To: Mercedes Lackey Discussion Subject: rather long braid...high misty content Message-ID: <3514C305.42A60A49-+AT+-earthlink.net> Hi, all. Okay, this is kinda long. I had a mere 149 messages to go through when I got home tonight. Almost done. For everyone I don't cite, well, I kept your message in my inbox, but trying to scan 199 messages is beyond me right now. I'm very proud of myself, tho -- it's end-to-end, 100% misty content. :) John Morris said <> Thanks, John. This is what I've been itching to say (hey -- I'm busy reading 149 emails, and waiting 'til I finish all of them to begin a reply. So I'm practically bursting.) I think that if you look at the AQueen as a book on its own, Misty actually sets it up a bit different than it ends up being throughout the series. Remember that Talia's not allowed to be told by guards or anybody else she's been chosen. And all her classmates breathe a sigh of relief... What we must all keep in mind is that this was the first Valdemar book, and it's quite possible that she had some ideas for her world that d-e-v-e-l-o-p-e-d. So as the world grew and expanded, she kept and developed most attributes, but some were sort of swept under the rug. I think Talia's inability to mindspeak with Rolan is a great example. It works perfectly for the trilogy, but doesn't hold up as we develop who and what the Companions really are. Sure, we can hypothesize rationalizations for this mental silence, perhaps come up with some good reasons for why Talia & rolan don't speak (hmm.. I can't think of any, except it makes a really good story...) or why Talia "forgot" her choosing (perhaps he knew he'd be unable to explain, and so thought it'd be better for her to learn it at the Collegium. Iliked what both Kat and April proposed.) So I'd say don't worry about this too much. Especially anything from the first trilogy, there might not be absolute continuity throughout all 12...15...uh, however many books. Oh, and I just read the discussion on combatting Ancar's magic. Um, first, Talia "discovered" magic was real; second, they were on the border, so maaaybe the prohibition isn't as strong there; but third, and the one I hold to, is that Vanyel's prohibition didn't exist yet, and at this point in the world's development, Misty envisioned Valdemar as having forgotten that magic existed, but hadn't delved into why that might be. Once she delved, it fleshed out to be due to Van...but she couldn't exactly go back and rewrite the battle so that Selenay et al. are constantly battling a silly forgetfulness. Heck, see my last paragraph. *g* This leads nicely into the next point I've been thinking about -- the difference between LHM/Queens vs. the other Valdemar books. I actually like all of them, but in very different ways. First of all, LHM & Queens are very focused on exactly one character. We follow his/her development, struggles, etc., and feel everything they're feeling. With Winds especially, Misty jumps around from POV to POV. She always does this, but in Winds it's kind of exhausting. I personally like Elspeth, but we never get really deep into her psyche..or Nyara's...or Darkwind's...or Firesong's....you get the picture. I think by this point she had the larger picture in mind and was working on plot development. And I think the "method" of going to so many characters (gotta admit -- it gave us a lot of info tying up past, present and future this way, but it was disconcerting at times) stood out a bit more to me in this set. She still is a master at sympathetic characters, and I laughed and cried and everything else throughout the Winds; it's just that by spreading it around, while I was totally into the characters they didn't resonate quite as deeply, wrap themselvess around my psyche and become a little part of me like VAn and Talia did. But hey, can't fault a writer for altering her style, trying different things. I think she's been pretty darn successful. Except maybe Silver Gryphon...still haven't finished that. I will say one thing to Heartsong (and Lisa) regarding Firesong having more magic than Elspeth -- not to start up the whole genetics thing again, but IMHO it's simply a case of one sibling having a little more of something than another. But Raven's got a good point about Elspeth having lots of power. Let's go to textevd... WoFate pp.172-3 Quenten has received word from Kero that Elspeth's on her way, and he's wondering whether she'll have any real talent: "A flash of white on the road just below the gate alerted him, and he paused for a moment to key in his MageSight....If this child had any ability at all, he would be able to See it...And that was when Quenten got one of the greatest shocks of his life. Whatever he had been expecting -- it wasn't what he Saw. The ordinary young woman with the graceful white horse was -- not ordinary at all. She was the bearer of an untrained, but major Mage-Gift; one so powerful it sheathed her in a closely-wrapped...." Anyway, my point here is that it's never said Elspeth has less potential than Firesong. But Firesong has been working with magic since a child, it's a part of who he is. It's kinda like (forgive me, I've been reading some Oliver Sacks, so I'm gonna get a bit neurological here...) the difference between being born without hearing and losing it late in life is not just the difference of a certain number of years. There's actual redistribution of brain area from visual to sensory -- mostly in the forefinger, which is used for reading braile, but also just generally. The brain is still developing in children and can make such adjustments. And the psyche, the perception of the world and what is possible and what his/her role is in that world and how it exists -- all of that is different in children vs. adults. Doubt Misty had all this in mind, but to get a little less scientific, I'd just say that Firesong's been doing it a whole lot longer than Elspeth, and she's specifically learned it as an adjunct to her MindMagic, so it's not a primary skill. Does that make sense? (not really sure...) Anna, I would like to say I won't have a problem with your name -- it's spelled different. Plus, Ana seems to end with "hugs." Long as you don't pick that up, I'll be able to tell you apart. *g* John, I'm not a huge fan of short stories, either. I like some of them, but I always feel cheated. Just as I meet a character, he or she leaves. *pout* Sometimes the stories themselves make up for it, but that's rather rare. Oh! Now I remember, the music thing...Kenny, and everyone else who wrote about not liking the songs...I've never heard them, but I don't really like the written versions. Everyone's been gushing about the songs, so I "reclassified" them mentally to something I'm undecided about -- perhaps I'll like them when I hear them? But I'm not real fond of them as songs. In fact, they were my first exposure to filk, and so I was afraid of reading any other songs, but there's some decent ones in CJ Cherryh's Merovingen series. On the topic of "breaking" an empath -- I don't have textevd here, but my recollection is that Talia was saying that an empath couldn't be made to serve evil. Sure, they can be broken, but broken as in "not-in-service." Besides, IMNSHO, even if you break them to the point where you make them attempt to serve you, an Empath will feel what he/she is doing, and sort of "self destruct." At least, that's the way I read it. After all, Alberich told Talia that everyone breaks (and that's why they send the "don't send help" thing -- they plan to suicide). It's just that if you force the other gifts to do your bidding, the gifts will work in spite of the pain/anguish/etc. that they cause. The empathy gift, however, if used for harm, would quickly destroy the empath. Fluffy cloud sheep (I saw thousands of them from my plane window today - 'least, I thought they were sheep *g*) and mint-chocolate lambs to you all! Lady Niki, First Bearer of that Ring Thing, and Councilor of Mist ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 02:44:30 EST From: Paustinnew To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Question From a Newbie/Oathblood Message-ID: <1f6179a1.3514c161-+AT+-aol.com> I'm curious -- does everyone read every message on the list? I tend to be selective -- I've been around for a while, but my job takes me away for several weeks at a time, so I have so much e-mail to sort through when I return that I rarely read everything. Pam, who goes by Map ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 02:51:00 -0500 From: littlebees-+AT+-bbs.tsf.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: a little of everything. Message-ID: First off, I'd like to apologize If anything I write does not follow the current thread of things--I had been saving all my e-mails to read for the past two weeks, and wonder of wonders, before I had a chance to read them, my Dear Beloved Father deleted them. Murderous rage is an understatement. As to the reason I haven't read e-mail in so long there are several. -(this ties in with a formerly current discussion) A guy that I grew up with just committed suicide. He was thirteen years old and in 8th grade. According to rumor, (his parents & brother are in seclusion) he either had an argument with his father, or, knowing this guy more likely, it was meant to be a practical joke--and it went wrong. Needless to say, this really upset me, and I found myself reading LHM again for the 17th time. I also formulated an opinion on suicide. Basically, I find any sort of needless death, completely senseless, HOWEVER . . . I also think that I would have followed Talia's course of action in Ancar's dungeon. Vanyel, on the otherhand, was a confused, aching, teenager. He had just lost his love and lifebonded. I'm not sure I wouldn't have suicided (is that a word?) in his case, however, I think he had less pressing reasons than Talia to do so. -(this is completely pointless, but I had to share my new experience) I visited a city. A REAL city. Binghampton, NY. ( I live in a city, but you can walk from one side to the other in less than 2 hours.--And it doesn't have a Ponderosa or a Taco Bell) Anyway, I went for Oddessy of the mind state finals (my team won 5th) and I saw some of the strangest looking people I have ever seen--I reveled in the joy of new sights and body piercings. I love it, I want to live in a city when I grow up :) Back to the topic at hand. I think that the Rolan making Talia forget wasn't just a fluke. Ok, this theory requires alot of assumptions, so bear with me. Givens: -Talia wants to become a Herald -Holderkin society is traditionally patriarchical, women subservient and emotionally and physically abused (AotQ--p.13, "exile", p. 16, "Nada") -Her low self esteem from abusive Holderkin upbringing leads her to believe she is not worthy to become one (AotQ--p.63. How had she ever dared to dream she might become a Herald? Never--never--only people born and bred to surroundings like these could aspire to such a position") -Talia means to say no to the position of Queen's Own, however her heart betrays her (AotQ--p.73. "Talia gulped nervously, still not certin that she wasn't the victim of a terrible mistake. She opened her mouth intending to say no, but once again her heart betrayed her.") -Companions know what is in their Chosen's hearts at the time of their choosing (AotQ--p.120. "A few--the most sensitive to the bond that forms between a Herald and his Companion--have described that first encounter as 'a feeling that I was being measured.' ") So here's my logic: When Rolan Chose Talia, he was aware of her insecurities and low self-esteem as a result of "the feeling of being measured." However, he believed that becuase of her innate goodness, compassion, Gift of Empathy, patience, that she was worth the trouble of blanking out her mind of the Choosing Ritual temporarily. He realized that if he could bring her to the Collegium where there were 53 (AotQ p. 104) other very compassionate (who has ever heard of an uncompasssionate Herald?) trainees, she would quite possibly break free of stereotypical Holderkin opression of women, and become the perfect Herald. Unfortunately, even though she remarks that she wishes Rolan were her companion (can't find the page #), she still intends to tell Selenay no. So, Rolan has the mind-blank her, until she sees what a Herald really is, and has a true choice, unbiased by Holderkin prejudices. Whew!!! That was definately longer & more philosophical than I intended this to be. BTW, I just bought Jinx High & Oathblood. The heavenly choir of fuzzy sheep sings (can sheep sing? Chirra's can.) 'cuz I thought I'd never find either. Reighvyn Emrys Daughter of the Queen of Rynia Mercenery and Advocate of Women's Rights "Ladies love outlaws like babies love stray dogs. Ladies touch babies like a banker touches gold And outlaws touch ladies somewhere deep down in their soul." --Confederate Railroad "Ladies Love Outlaws" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 03:19:44 -0600 (CST) From: "Terrae N. Loucks" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Braid:Talia/Elspeth/Fluff Message-ID: First, I think that Talia did not believe Selenay because she did not knwo she had been Chosen and because of her insecurities. Also, she grew quickly into her role. I think she was the bast suited so far out of all otherQueen's Owns mentioned. She has an enchanting personality that can be seen in all the books she is mentioned in. I think it would be neat to be her. I mean have her strength and abilities to deal with people as well as she does. I also like the way the plot of her and her lifebonded was built up. Also is it just me or does it seem like there are more lifebondings around the time of Selenay than any other time mentioned? Next, I think all the input people have about Elspeth's powers compared to Firesong's is insightful ,but why does she have such insecurities if she is really that strong and why did she not gain more knowledge thru all the things she had to help out with in Ancar and Falconsbane? Vanyel had less training than her among the Hawkbrothers and he was around the ame age as her. If her powers were truly as strong as Firesong's, why was she not as good as Vanyel who had the same amoumt if not less training than Elspeth in magic? ======================================================================================= This is just Fluff Heartsong gives Anna a big hug. She is very happy that she decided to keep Anastasia because she did not have a bondmate. Heartsong then sends a warm feeling to last then thru the day. Then she runs to Storm and offers and Apache Tear with a a big wooly sheep. She mindsends: Welcome, if you need anything just ask. After that, Heartsong goes to the into the Mist and finds ShadowWolf. She brings him chicken soup and a warm sheep blanket died in royal blue. Then she hands him a small kyree. It is no older than a pup. She mindsends: You need a small friend and he will be good for you. I warn you he is awnry though. He has no name yet. The cub sighs and Heartsong places him in ShadowWolf's hands. She touches his cheeks and sends a feeling of warmth to him. Apache Tear nuxxles his hand and jumps up on her hind legs to give ShadowWolf a big hug and slobbery kiss. Then they leave him so he can gets some rest. Heartsong goes to get some food from the Humus stand. She barders with some gemstones she had. She spots Yvonne and the Troll Adept and offerssome food to them. Then she gives the Troll Adept a special dagger that will always hit its target. It is forged from a magic metal that changes rainbow colors as it moves. It also has the ability to heal its owner because it forms a bond with them. It does NOT make the owner do weird quest like Need does though. Then she boughs and leaves them. She also hands Yvonne a super soaker water gun. Finally she sit in the middle of the Hall and begins to chant. Music fill the Hall and a rainbow forms in the sky. Then a gazebo appears from the Mist for all to use. In the gazebo is a hot tub with small little tristing areas blocked off by vegetation surrounding the hotub. Heartsong is then terribly warn out. Apache Tear leaves Taynar's friends to help Heartsong up and then Apache Tear calls forth the encircling Mist and they aregone to rest. Heartsong hopes all will enjoy her gift. Sorry it got so long, Wind to thy wings, Heartsong and Apache Tear ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1531 **********************************