MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1573 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: braiding/Merlin/heart by Sara Camarata 2) Spirit-teacher/Grifs-Gryphs/Heartsong/Geyr by shadowspun-+AT+-juno.com (Heather A Tomlinson) 3) Re: braiding/Merlin/heart by Amanda Carlston 4) Re: Merlin Spoiler by AprilS81 5) Great Stories by tristain-+AT+-lycosmail.com 6) elves by Adrienne Metz 7) gryph/griff-ins by "marty l. adkins" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 07:22:51 +0000 From: Sara Camarata To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: braiding/Merlin/heart Message-ID: <354583CB.C0E39C47-+AT+-wam.umd.edu> Buzzz wrote: > WARNING !! Merlin spoiler: > > John E. Morris wrote: > yet.... > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > Well then > they should have told the story more correctly. Who was this Queen Mab, > and Frik? I never heard of them in any of the King Arthur stories I have > read, and they played the main villans. The main villan is supposed to be > Morgan Le Fey, and her part in King Arthurs downfall was downplayed. HI. I'm just a little lurker who likes to post once in awhile and I had to post this time.I'm currently enrolled in an Arthurian Legends Class ans have had the oppurtunity to scrutinize about 6 or 7 different textx dealing with Arthur so far. We (the class) have been reading stuff running the gammut from _The Mabinogi_, Mallory's _Works_ (from which we get _Le Morte De Arthur_), Geforrey of Momoths's _History of the Kings of Britain_ (I've also read most of his _Vita Merlinis), T.H. White's _The Once and Future King_, some of the French romances bny Chretien, and Lord Sir Tennyson's _Idyls of the King_. Suffice tomsay, I've read a bit. I agree that the NBC show did stray from the basic elements already laid before us, but one thing I've learned is that each time Arthur is need (as he was now to renew our faith in ledership...) the author(s) bring different takes to the legend and alter it to refelct their times and ideals. Because of this I find it easier to stomach some "articstic liberties" taken. However, my big beef was them sending Arthur after the Grail! He, in ALL the versions I've read that include a Grail quest, NEVER went for the grail! Another big beef, but one that I guess couldn't be avoided for storytelling reasons, is that it was Merlin who Nimue trapped in the cave! He wasn't around Camelot when the SH*T hit the fan!! But, as I said, for storytelling reason... As for Mab and Frik. Well, Mab in some myths is a VERY powerful Faerie Queen, or a strong practitioner of the Old Arts. Thus, since the script writers wanted to tell a story of the Old Ways being subverted by the New using Mab to do so was a decent maneuver. As for how it fits in with Arthur, you're right, it doesn't. HOWEVER, since little is known of Merlin's birth and childhood, why not? We know that he is/was half human, some say his father was a devil, some say an Angel, no one really knows. Whtie says Merlin lives backwards. Some of the legends hardly mention Merlin at all. Chretien didn't, for example. So why not have Merlin's nemesis be a Faerie? The last thing I want to harp on is about Morgan Le Fey. She changes from text to text. In Chretien she is a healer. In Mallory she is a real wench who tries to get Arthur killed, steals Excalibur's sheath (which was FAR more important than the sword) and is in the barge that takes Arthur to Avalon at the end. However, she is NOT, despite commen interpretations and modern versions, the mother of Mordred. As I said, this is a modern invention! Morgawse, another of Arthur's half sisters is Mordred's Mom. Morgawse was married to king Lot, and is the mother of Gawain, Gareth, Gaheris, and Aggravaine. Yes, Morgan is a villain in some versions of the myth, but by no means is she the major baddie. The real baddie, in most legends is Mordred. As an interesting side note, in Tennyson, Merlin is NOT even Arthur's son, just his nephew... Well, that's all I have to say for now... Ciao! Sara > > > E > N > D > > O > F > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:02:57 EDT From: shadowspun-+AT+-juno.com (Heather A Tomlinson) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Spirit-teacher/Grifs-Gryphs/Heartsong/Geyr Message-ID: <19980429.110133.6351.3.shadowspun-+AT+-juno.com> Wasn't the Snow Demon story about one of Tarma's teachers. A Final Strike-type thing, I believe. Oh, what book was that in?! Darnit, I forget. NO, wait, Oathbreakers, I think. When Tarma's playing with the kiddies and she tells Kethry she "croak" her the song one day. Or something along those lines, anyway. I found it. Obr, p80-1: "...We Shin'a'in must have a dozen about the youngling who takes things on face value and gets eaten for his stupidity. Come to think of it, the Snow Demon is one of them. He ate about half a Clan before he was through." (Kethry) "Was there such a creature, really? And was that what it did?" "There was. And it did. It showed up in an unusually cold winter one year-oh, about four generations ago. A Kal'enedral finally took it out-one of my teachers, to tell the truth. Mutual kill, very dramatic-also, he tells me, DAMNED painful. I'll croak you the song sometime. Tonight, if you like." >Everytime I ask people say they are the same things, but HOW COME Kethry >says that the man would have to find trained GRIFFINS to draw his marron >rig? I mean Kethry would know the difference (or Tarma would) between >GRYPHONS and GRIFFINS so what IS the diff? Both words are mentioned so >Misty must mean they're diff species! As for the gryphons/griffins. I took that to be just an interchangeable term. Since most of the people in Rethwellan, Kethry included, hadn't seen them before the Kaled'a'in came back, that comment would be like us saying we wanted to meet a unicorn. Tarma wouldn't really have to know about them at all. They didn't impact on her life as a Kal'enedral untik her AFTERlife as a Kal'enedral. Why would the Star-eyed tell her about it when she doesn't have to know. The big S doesn't exactly seem too forthcoming about info. Even Karal mentions a list of Blessed creatures and Gryphs are on it, but he assumes they're mythical too. I know, I know, not topic related, but Heartsong, it's happening again. My mail is being bounced back at me. I think I'd better find out if anything is wrong w/Juno on my end. Seasong said something about Geyr being from the Haighlei Emp. I always assumed he was. But then, you know the saying about assuming things. :) Okay, I think that's it. I'll check really quick to see if anymore mail has come in while I wrote this then send the little bugger off. Nope, no new mail. See y'all later. Shadowspun & Hobgood Member of the Order of Unsung Heroes (Jadus) _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:14:07 -0500 From: Amanda Carlston To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: braiding/Merlin/heart Message-ID: <199804292014.PAA18764-+AT+-gomer.wiscnet.net> At 01:00 PM 4/29/1998 +0100, Sara wrote: >However, my big beef was them sending Arthur after the Grail! He, in ALL >the versions I've read that include a Grail quest, NEVER went for the grail! >Another big beef, but one that I guess couldn't be avoided for storytelling >reasons, is that it was Merlin who Nimue trapped in the cave! He wasn't around >Camelot when the SH*T hit the fan!! But, as I said, for storytelling reason... Hmm....I've taken a class here at my college called "Topics in Medieval History: King Arthur"...It's not required for my major, but I thought that it would be a good idea to take it since I want to teach English. Also, I only saw the very last hour of the movie, but from what I've heard it wasn't too close to the accepted legends, and that's taking into account that the things that we know about Arthur are not true in the first place, but this isn't the place to be airing my beefs about the inaccuracies of the legends... Merlin, according to most legends, went to the Crystal Caves with Nimue of his own volition. He KNEW what would happen if he did, but he went anyway. Merlin was not a lamb to the slaughter, but knew dang well what was going to happen to Arthur and Camelot when he left. And Sara is right that Arthur never went after the Grail himself, and there are inaccuracies about who did find it. Some say Galahad, some say Percival, and there are others who have been credited, though the Serach for the Holy Grail never showed up until Mallory's writings. >As for Mab and Frik. Well, Mab in some myths is a VERY powerful Faerie Queen, >or a strong practitioner of the Old Arts. Thus, since the script writers wanted >to tell a story of the Old Ways being subverted by the New using Mab to do so >was a decent maneuver. As for how it fits in with Arthur, you're right, it >doesn't. "Ah, I see Queen Mab hath been with you..." Queen Mab, according to Shakespeare and told through Mercushio (I know I have that spelled wrong...I hope someone has a copy of _Romeo and Juliet_ out there...) that she rules the realm of dreams. Don't ask me about Frick, though. I never heard of him before I watched NBC's version. >HOWEVER, since little is known of Merlin's birth and childhood, why >not? We know that he is/was half human, some say his father was a devil, some >say an Angel, no one really knows. Whtie says Merlin lives backwards. Some of >the legends hardly mention Merlin at all. Chretien didn't, for example. So why >not have Merlin's nemesis be a Faerie? Merlin may have been half-Faerie himself. As for Chretien not mentioning Merlin, he wrote romances, and introduced Lancelot to the legends. Before then, the "Knight of the Cart" had not been heard of, and Gwenevere was a faithful wife. >The last thing I want to harp on is about Morgan Le Fey. She changes from text >to text. In Chretien she is a healer. In Mallory she is a real wench who tries >to get Arthur killed, steals Excalibur's sheath (which was FAR more important >than the sword) and is in the barge that takes Arthur to Avalon at the end. >However, she is NOT, despite commen interpretations and modern versions, the >mother of Mordred. As I said, this is a modern invention! Morgawse, another of >Arthur's half sisters is Mordred's Mom. Morgawse was married to king Lot, and >is the mother of Gawain, Gareth, Gaheris, and Aggravaine. Yes, Morgan is a >villain in some versions of the myth, but by no means is she the major baddie. >The real baddie, in most legends is Mordred. As an interesting side note, in >Tennyson, Merlin is NOT even Arthur's son, just his nephew... *nod* This is true. Btw, just so you know, Excalibur's sheath would keep it's owner from dying of their injuries as long as they were wearing it. But it was Mordred who was Arthur's nephew in Tennyson, not Merlin. I know that it was probably a mistype, but it needed to be cleared up. (In case you couldn't notice, I LOVE Arthurian legends...) OBMisty---- I know that there has to be one...Okay, back to the elves then. :) How many people out there have read more then Misty's version of elves? Do you think that Misty has the best angle on elves, or are there others who are better? For myself, I love Misty's elves, but I actually perfer Rosemary Edghill's elves a little better, even if they are more prejudiced against humans. That's it for now. Back to the Mists and shadows. Ashandra Priestess of the Goddess of Elves Member of the Order of Unsung Heros [Kris, Dirk, Terenil, FX] _____ ____ _____ / ____|/ __ \ / ____| Please help bring all 200 episodes of Sailor | (___ | | | | (___ Moon + the Movies to America by visiting: \___ \| | | |\___ \ ============================================ ____) | |__| |____) | http://looney.physics.sunysb.edu/sos/ |____ave\____ur___ailors!============================================ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:02:20 EDT From: AprilS81 To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Merlin Spoiler Message-ID: <33e963ef.3547955d-+AT+-aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-28 22:36:05 EDT, you write: Spoilers ahead.All unwary travelers beware! << I thought it was a good interpretation of Arthur, mainly because it showed the characters as humans instead of perfect plastic cutouts with no flaws or problems. That is actually the reason I like Misty, because she shows that even in fantasy no one is perfect, and it isn't always happy ever after. Admittedly, it was a typical major network production, Merlin spent his time mooning over Nimue and yelling portents at everyone else, and Morgan was incredably silly, but still despite its flaws it was a great show. Of course, my in my favorite version of the tale, Merlin's a smith, Mordred's a good guy, Gawain's a bad guy, Morgan is just a fairly normal person caught up it the life of her brother, and Lancalot is gay. But it shows how they really might have been.(Courtway Jones if anyone wants to read it) Well that's my rant. See ya next time I'm in the dungeon. >> I taped the thing, and have had the distinct pleasure of watching it four times already, one time with each family member who found out I had just finished watching it Without Them. I always like watching/reading different versions of the Arthur/Merlin story, though my favorites have been those that centered around Merlin. (The Crystal Cave by Mary Stewart; Taliesin, Merlin, Arthur, and Pendragon by Stephan R. Lawhead) I thought the show was pretty good. I am a bit of a Celtic legend freak, so I annoyed all around me by retelling the story as it most often is told. I didn't like the involvement of Mab much, which is about my only complaint. Oh, yeah, and the ending. It was wat too happy, not that I am opposed to happy endings. It was just plain wrong! Ok. I'm done. April ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:42:18 -0400 (EDT) From: tristain-+AT+-lycosmail.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Great Stories Message-ID: <199804292342.TAA10095-+AT+-web03.globecomm.net> Hello All, I have just finished the Herald Mage Trilogy. W O W!! I loved every book. My emotions have soared and been squashed. I can't believe it has taken me this long to find this great writer. My world is a richer place because of these books. We need more Vanyels in this world. My Writing Page: http://www.geocities.com/soho/museum/5031 ----------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email at http://email.lycos.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:49:06 -0700 From: Adrienne Metz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: elves Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980429164906.0075a6e8-+AT+-pop.u.arizona.edu> At 10:04 PM 4/29/98 +0100, Ashandra wrote: >OBMisty---- >I know that there has to be one...Okay, back to the elves then. :) How many >people out there have read more then Misty's version of elves? Do you think >that Misty has the best angle on elves, or are there others who are better? >For myself, I love Misty's elves, but I actually perfer Rosemary Edghill's >elves a little better, even if they are more prejudiced against humans. > My largest influence about elves has been through Mickey Zucker Reichert. I do like hers better than Misty's. While elves in most books that I have read seem fairly anti-human, MZR's are the ones I like best. Misty's and Andre's were an interesting take. I'm still looking for the book after Elvenbane to read :) Adrienne ********** Preistess of OOPS Member of the MisticCircle: Resident Trouble Maker for Admin Author of the Mickey Zucker Reichert Website at http://www.futureone.com/~ryan/realm/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 02:40:30 -0400 From: "marty l. adkins" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: gryph/griff-ins Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980430024030.0068cb5c-+AT+-pop.mindspring.com> Rainbow, it was very perceptive of you to pick up on the gryphon/griffin thing. The only explanation I can come up with is, the Tarma and Kethry stuff was written before a lot of the detailed development of Valdemar and the Tayledras. The stories may well have developed in directions she hadn't foreseen at the time of Kethry's rather throw-away "griffin" comment. As Lois McMaster Bujold so aptly puts it, "The author reserves the right to come up with a Better Idea." Three trilogies of prominently featured gryphons later, I'd certainly say Misty did that, wouldn't you?--Jerrie ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1573 **********************************