MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1644 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: the Van mythos by Mad Wizard 2) Re: Empire and urtho? by B10nd31-+AT+-aol.com 3) I'm b-ack!! by "jean london" 4) Myth figures/Elvenbane by "Shadow Wolf" 5) Re: Empire and urtho? by "Rhiannon" 6) Re: Other Misty books by Reality continues to ruin my life 7) Alright, too much email by Cymrey-+AT+-aol.com 8) hello there/book character by "Raven Castro" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 13:21:07 +0200 From: Mad Wizard To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: the Van mythos Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980705132107.006c1268-+AT+-szczecin.top.pl> First: that You all for warm and very nice welcomes. Thank You for Seawater, Sheeps and very useful gifts.:) ----------------- Cut few voices about Van and Christ and then King Arthur's Knight. I think that we cannot say "Hey, that guy! Van is him!". However, we can include Van into some category of mythological persons. Let's thing about typical hero myth. Scheme accepted by theory of literature: - miraculous (word, spelling?) birth; Tristan, Christ, Hercules, Prometeus. - childhood (educated extensively); Tristan. - optional element --> heero brings to society new skills; Tristan, Prometeus. - Glorious Exploits™; Christ, Tristan, Hercules, Prometeus, Odys, Achilles, King Arthur, David, Salomon et caetera. - woman (in our case - man) as a reward for glorious exploits (Odys and Penelopa) or as a cause of death (Hercules and Deianira, David and Patsheba (spelling?) - not death, but great sin in God's eyes); - miraculous effects after death (Tristan and Isold). Does Vanyel's life fit into that scheme? I don't know about childhood, thanks to the fact, that in Poland first book of his trylogy wasn't published. But I expect that as a child of a lord he was educated in all ways (word?). About that new skills - he was educated by... er... Hwak's Brothers (my translation of Polish term used in books), so I think that some new magic skills was brought by him to Valdemar. Woman... err... I meant, man.:) 'Lendel as a cause of near-death. Stephen as a reward for life full of sacrifices. After death - three gosts: Van, Stephen und Yfandes. A propos Yfandes. Very optional element of heroic life is loyal companion. I think it was incorporated in heroic biography after Middle Ages, however myth of hero wasn't my main interest and I lack some knowledge about it. Mad Sheep™ for everybody! Mad Wizard "I didn't want to do this. The voices told me to." "I'm never lonely with my schizophrenia." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 13:43:10 EDT From: B10nd31-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Empire and urtho? Message-ID: In a message dated 05/07/98 04:02:18 GMT, you write: << I think that the people who eventually formed the Empire were one of the mercenary units that Urtho used. (Doesn't it say somewhere about the Empire being founded by former mercenaries?) Anyway when it mentions the enemy's victory being a hollow one, I thought that was when Urtho triggered his tower to blow up and sent that spell canceling device to Ma'ar. But then, I could be wrong. Comments? Becky By the way, sorry about so many messages from me. I'll try to do better! >> i beleive that i know which of urtho's mercenary companies it was. see if you's can find it, here are two clues. 1/ what is the heraldic device of the empire as shown on the crown of the emperor. 2/ what is the company badge of the mercenary that Skans friend Amberdrake bumps into on his way to see the healers. if you find those than i think you will get the possable name of the mercenary company that formed the empire. one of the things that puzzles me is why misty had Skan muse to him self that out of all the mages he knows only Urtho and Vicketeren (the 1 who supplies the magical keys to Skan) whistle. Shas Ellion. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 13:17:57 PDT From: "jean london" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: I'm b-ack!! Message-ID: <19980705201758.17890.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> ok. i've been gone for a week, so i had a lot of mail to catch up on. first off, i'd like to welcome the Mad Wizard into the list (hey-i'm a forth polish!!!), and thalionar into the Amazons. i hope the training session isn't too bad. Thrrl hurt his back, but managed to complete the training by my side. Ok. as far as i can remember, i think Yfandes was the only Companion ABLE to Choose Van. i think all the others were either too young, or already had Chosens. as far as that Vampire thing goes...man, i'd hate to be bitten every 52 days...that would really, really hurt. man, mine hurt enough as it was...ah, well. i hope you find out if your Vamp is a girl or not, Joleth!! ;) i'm sorry if this will end up a little weird. i just happen to be that way...and i had a bottle of surge an hour ago. i really have to stop drinking it!!! of course, i have to buy it, because it's the only thing Goddess Hippopotamus will drink. OH NO!!! let that go, you stupid animal-that's my gift!! ah!!! she ate my never-croaking flower!!! man, i need to get her out of my house...anyone want to babysit?!? (the pay is good...i have too many sheep as it is, you'd get to eat any you want...that is, if Hippo here doesn't eat them first!!!) *fire-breathing sheep that has been following her around just misses hitting with a fireball.* ah, it's no harm asking, right?!? *bat grins, and flies away through the hall, followed by limping kyree* BYE-bye!!! well, i'd have to say, for that being a character thing, i'd like to be in a Doctor Suess novel. i think i'd like to meet some of his weird characters!!! =p (no, really, i'd love to be a Misty character.) Zhai'helleva! Jean High Priestess of Hippopotamus Vampire Mindmate to Thrrl, Kyree. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 17:14:43 PDT From: "Shadow Wolf" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Myth figures/Elvenbane Message-ID: <19980706001444.24952.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> Elsa said: <> We're cookin' with gas now!! I know just tons of people who would burn you at the stake (mentally) if you suggested that, but thankfully I'm not one of them. But I can see several differences between Jesus of Nazareth and Vanyel or Forst Reach. I didn't mean to suggest that Van was just like Jesus of Nazareth. I was only pointing out that they were SIMILAR in a couple of very important ways. Of course there are vast differences between Vanyel and Christ. BTW, what about Cennydd calling Baron Valdemar a Moses figure? That could be offensive to any Jewish people on the list. Anyway, my point is that one character is not going to exactly match another but we can look at the similarities. Many people compare Frodo to Jesus of Nazereth and yet there are numerous differences. I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes especially since I am a christian. I just finished the Elvenbane books and was wondering if anyone else found the ending of Elvenblood to be very unsatisfying. Things seemed to be building up for a grand confrontation and then everything just fizzled out. It appears to me like Misty wanted the story to go in one direction and Andre Norton wanted things to go another way. Then it appears like they wrote a compromise ending that wasn't very fulfilling to either author. Or, is this eventually going to be a trilogy with the big confrontation at the end? ShadowWolf, God of Stupid Chess Moves Knight of Fluff, Founder of OOPS Bonded with Wesak and Waszzy "I don't know how to be a hero." --Rincewind-- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 17:43:22 -0700 From: "Rhiannon" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Empire and urtho? Message-ID: >i beleive that i know which of urtho's mercenary companies it was. >see if you's can find it, here are two clues. >1/ what is the heraldic device of the empire as shown on the crown of the >emperor. >2/ what is the company badge of the mercenary that Skans friend Amberdrake >bumps into on his way to see the healers. > >if you find those than i think you will get the possable name of the mercenary >company that formed the empire. > >one of the things that puzzles me is why misty had Skan muse to him self that >out of all the mages he knows only >Urtho and Vicketeren (the 1 who supplies the magical keys to Skan) whistle. The name of the mercenary company is Pedron's wolves. Amberdrake said that they were a good company who was generally well thought of. I think that misty added the tidbit about mages and whistling to maybe indicate something about mage power. Urtho was the most powerful mage that the world had ever seen before or since. He had the secret of permanant gates and he created the gryphons. Vikteren built a gate as a Journeyman even though it says that only Adepts can build Gates, so I think that's a pretty good indication of his future power. Does anyone know if Vanyel could whistle? Or Firesong? Becky Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere! http://www.mailexcite.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 21:19:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Reality continues to ruin my life To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Other Misty books Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Jul 1998, geis wrote: > The only Misty books I've read are in the Velgarth series, but I'd like > to try her others like Di Tregarde, Bardic Voices, SERRAted Edge & any > others. Can you give me suggestions as to what to read first, your > personal favorites & so on? I can't buy every book I want > (unfortunately), so I want to make sure I invest in something I'll > really, really like. Thank you for your help! I was originally going to reply to this privately, but realized that it may be something that other list folk are unaware of also. Limited budget doesn't have to be a problem in getting your necessary dose of Misty! Trust me, I'm a college student, I have no money. However, many libraries carry Misty's books. And, if the library you use doesn't, there's a wonderful thing that generally goes by the name of Interlibrary Loan Service (different places may have different names for it), under which you can file a request saying "I really want to read X, written by Y" and the library can get it within a couple weeks. Ask a librarian at whatever library you use how to go about doing this. It's a great goodness. Having said that, I personally recommend the Di Tregarde series, beginning with Children of the Night. The SERRAted Edge books are also good (starting with Born to Run), but I happen to like Di just a teeny bit better. ------------ I happen to agree with Shadowwolf's comment that Van could possibly be a Christ figure. Let me reinforce what was said earlier, that just because a character or situation has archetypal qualities does not mean that there has to be a complete and perfect match. From a literary viewpoint, Vanyel and Jesus both fall under a subtype of the "Sacrificed God" category. (Lest anyone be offended, let me point out that I am a Christian, but I am speaking in a literary rather than personal and religious mode.) Another example here is Paul in The Summer Tree, although Kay once again manages to nicely turn the archetype on its head there. The Fisher King is also part of this -- the idea of a leader voluntarily going to his death to save his land and/or people. Generally speaking, the death is not easy, and the one making himself a sacrifice has an option for an easier way, which he rejects for the greater good. With this in mind, it is easy to draw the parallels -- Van chose to go to his death to save his people. Afterward, he did not really die, but continued to serve and to protect his people in an other-worldly form. After his death, there was unfinished work that had to be done, which was accomplished by one who had been close to him spreading the word and the ideas that people had to be able to accept in order to gain satisfaction and peace. (In this case, it was Stef persuading people that magic was unnecessary, rather than the Apostles establishing the beginnings of Christianity, but the connection is still there.) Is it possible to come up with a one-to-one correlation between Vanyel and Jesus? Of course not. But there is a difference between an exact copy and a representation of an archetypal figure. The major characteristic of a Christ figure is the "one man dying [yet not-dying, in some cases] so that a much greater good may be served." King Arthur also falls into this category in those of the tales that have him as the "once and future" king -- the warrior who is born into the world in mysterious circumstances in order to save his people at their time of greatest need. (For references to Christ as Warrior, see "Dream of the Rood.") Speaking in terms of literary theory, it is not at all unreasonable to call Vanyel a Christ figure. Becky -------------- Radioactive cats have 18 half-lives. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 22:54:11 EDT From: Cymrey-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Alright, too much email Message-ID: <97ec13c.35a03c54-+AT+-aol.com> Sorry folks, but my email load has increased way too much... How do I sub this list? I loves ya all and enjoyed me time here, but its time to leave... ::waveys!!!!:: Zhai'helluva, Cymrey Member of OOUH, Champion of Vree! Druidess in Green! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 01:22:02 PDT From: "Raven Castro" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: hello there/book character Message-ID: <19980706082202.20692.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> Hello! My name is Raven. I'm new around here, and I come from a country where English is only secondary (er..many of my countrymen think otherwise). Anyway, I'd like to say hi to everybody. About the character in a book, I think I'd like the author to be Misty (er..of course!!). Well, besides her, I'd also like the author to be Madeleine L'Engle(heard of her?). That's all. Raven ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1644 **********************************