MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1685 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) i started something i didn't mean to start by kalistia-+AT+-juno.com (kalistia firemyst) 2) Forced Reading by Elizabeth Tetlow 3) Literature by Rhiannon 4) Re: Braid of many things by "JOHN E MORRIS" 5) lotsastuff by "Raven X" 6) RE: Braid of many things by "Morgaine" 7) RE: Braid of many things by "Morgaine" 8) Re: Braid of many things by "Kristjan Wager" 9) Literature by "Judy L. Wood" 10) RE: Braid of many things by "Morgaine" 11) Re: Braid of many things by efluharty-+AT+-juno.com (Ellen K Fluharty) 12) mostly fluffy braid by "Shadow Wolf" 13) books and banned books in Valdemar by Amy Trujillo 14) Re: Braid of many things by "Reginabean" 15) Re: Braid of many things by edrucker-+AT+-ruraltel.net (Ed Rucker) 16) Gunpowder by "Rhiannon" 17) Re: Withen's Library by Jenni Halpin 18) Re: Braid of many things by Kenneth Allen Hyde ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:26:54 EDT From: kalistia-+AT+-juno.com (kalistia firemyst) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: i started something i didn't mean to start Message-ID: <19980813.194347.8119.0.kalistia-+AT+-juno.com> stasia, kris, jen, princess, and many others~thanks, i think you just about summed up my feelings... it's not hat i don't like reading, i _love_ reading, it's just, like some have said, i like to take my time...i don't look at it as much of a chore as i do a book that i have to read in my allotted time, and i have no choice, i know that i don't have a choice, and i realize i'll have to deal with it for the rest of my schooling career, i'm sorry i was ranting, i was having a bad day in the first place...i do prefer huck to some other books, i just wish i could have had a choice...sorry...in a previous class we had to read certain books _and_ chose a book form a short list...we discussed the books we had to read, and got into groups about the others...and i don't always hate the forced books...i liked many of them, and i'm glad i had to read them, i just wish i was allotted more time...but someone else said that forced reading stopped ppl form reading all together...that same affliction has happened to many of my friends...y'know what? i'm just gonna drop the whole thing...i do and don't agree with you john,. and i guess i'll leave it at that. hey, about the hair, i don't remember van dying his hair, but who knows... i do know i remember the whole heartstone thing... i forget who asked if any of us put ourselves in the stories we read...i do, no matter what genre the book is... hey, should i read the winds and storms books before reading the gryphon books? i think i should, but you never know if there's something in the gryphons i need to know first.... well, thanks all for bearing with my attitude prob, sorry for lashing out the way i did. sheep of friendship and reconciliation to all... and jen, i write the was i talk and think, that's why it's so jumbled, and it doesn't take too long, i, thankfully, was taught to type at an early age...but thanks for the complement ;) zha'hai'allav'a kalistia firemyst _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 98 22:09:43 PDT From: Elizabeth Tetlow To: Misty Subject: Forced Reading Message-ID: Stepping form the shadows...... Heres my long 2cents and why... I feel very strongly that I would have never enjoyed reading like I do if it hadn't been for a book report. 10th grade English, we had a choice of books out of our High School library. I didn't care and chose a Historical Fiction called _The Salamanica Drum_. I began reading it the night before the report was due with all intentions of skimming and gleaming enought information to write a "C" report. 12 hours later, I finished the book...no sleep...no school... and a love for reading. Later... all I read was Historical Fiction/Romance.... then my best friend got a similar assignment, but her assignment was restricted to a specific type of book....Sci-fi/fantasy. She bought _Being a Green Mother_ by Peirs Anthony. She read it, didn't understand it and asked me to help her. Two days later, I helped her finish a book report and fell-in-love with Fantasy. Yet again...stuck... Anthony being the only Fantasy author I read. Then...I got very ill during my pregnancy. The doctors released me into the care of a friend . The only books she had were written by her favorites Misty and Terry Brooks. Looking at only the titles and covers I chose a triolgy we all love and started reading _Magic's Pawn_. A week later I had finished all three. And had started V&H. Well... Today, I have a library my husband curses (he curses my computer too!!) It takes up three rooms if you don't count my bedroom and I read everything. I have books from the 1800's and a room full of paperbacks. I dont get rid of a book, unless I have duplicates. I don't borrow anymore, I have to read them again and again and again (they are all my friends, none of which I want to lose) Being forced to read doesn't always have to be a "Chore". Unless you want it to be. Your life is only restrained by what you allow to block you. You don't have to hate it..you don't have to enjoy it...you still must complete it... humbly staring at her feet she whispers "Please forgive me....you know the mind the first to go and I was never on stable ground to begin with..." under her breath (oh my.......OH MY.....I think I'll think twice next time before leaving the shadows) Nightstar Dreamer, Guardian of Dreams Watcher of Shadows and Believer of All..... etetlow-+AT+-99main.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:33:04 -0700 From: Rhiannon To: Mercedes Lackey Mailing List Subject: Literature Message-ID: As a student, I can see where you are coming from. It's no fun to be forced into reading something just because some God of Academia has proclaimed it to be Literature. Sure, it might be good, and you might like it anyway, but it just drives you mad to be forced into it. (Kinda like how Elspeth didn't want to study with Kerowyn's uncle because it was her Chosen Path) I like literature just as much as the next person (well, maybe a little more than the next person), but I don't want to be told what's good and what isn't. Sure, I've liked some of the stuff I've been required t read (Jane Eyre, A Farewell to Arms, Jane Austen, TS Eliot, F. Scott Fitzgerald and Shakespeare come to mind), but I've also read plenty of stuff that I've absolutely hated that my teachers have said are "wonderful, works of literature" (William Faulkner, The Old Man and the Sea, Dr. Faustus, Animal Farm, Billy Budd) As I write this, I have just finished reading King lear for summer reading, and I loved it. But I think my school has found the right way to do summer reading. We get a list of about 10 books, and are told to pick 2 to read and write essays on. That way, you have some choice and you aren't forced onto the Chosen Path. Ob-Misty: what would I be in Velgarth? I think I probably have enough insecurities to warrant either a Companion or a lifebond. Not saying that all Heralds are insecure, and I do have the loyalty and dedication that comes with it. I'm a lot like Talia I think (when I read Arrows for the 1st time I immediately identified with her). Also, has anyone wondered about the story of Lavan Firestorm? That's a story I'd like to hear. --- Becky Singer of Fire (soprano) ********************************************************************************* "The first ten million years were the worst," said Marvin, "and the second ten million years, they were the worst too. The third ten million I didn't enjoy at all. After that I went into a bit of a decline." See my webpage at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Labyrinth/6697 Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere! http://www.mailexcite.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 01:43:19 -0400 From: "JOHN E MORRIS" To: Subject: Re: Braid of many things Message-ID: <005101bdc746$72acb040$bd109cd1-+AT+-oemcomputer> >I've been reading the posts on this subject for awhile now, and I had to >put my 2 cents in. I know I had a problem getting through any book I was >told I had to read in HS and college. The problems wasn't so much that I >thought of reading as a chore, as much as #1) I hate being told WHAT to >read. Suggestions are one thing, but telling me that I MUST read >Huckleberry Finn or Crime and Punishment or Gulliver's Travels or Midsummer >Night's Dream or anything else that a teacher/proffesor told me I had to >read grated me the wrong way, I understand that this is how some people feel, and it is this attitude that I think needs to be changed. so many people these days think that it is an incredible imposition to be TOLD to do anything, yet in life we are constantly being told to do things, by parents, by superiors at work, by spouses/partners; we are all independent people, yes, but we are also members of a society. That society sometimes places demands upon us that may seem difficult at the outset, but it is imcumbent upon to to carry out those demands. If we can't learn to do it, without complaint, with a graciousness of spirit, in high school, then how can we be expected to do things far more difficult and demanding later on in life? Will you also tell your boss that his demands on you "grate you the wrong way?" If we all did or read only the things that were comfortable for us, we would be a poor group of people, indeed. >And, here's a thought, what's the physics of a mage-bolt anyway? I've >always conceptualized them as energy. A correlary to this would be that >they move at the speed of light, wouldn't they? One would certainly think so - I guess this is a case of willing supension of disbelief. If mage energy really DID travel at the speed of light, then mage battles wouldn't consist of anything beyond a nasty little ambush. >I know of exactly one person who learned to like reading from such an experience (my sister, who >reads 19th century Russian novels for pleasure). On the other hand, I >know large numbers of people who were so turned off of reading by being >forced to read books that they did not enjoy that, to this day, they >refuse to even consider reading for pleasure. Clearly, this is not a >desirable result. And there are even larger numbers of people, probably, >who love to read, but did not enjoy assigned readings at all, and were >happy to get free of the system that required them. And who now think of >"literature" as something horrid. Given the negative attitudes toward >reading and literature that are being created and strengthened by this >approach, I can't imagine why it is still used. Well, I'm sorry you don't like the cannon of accepted literature, but it's there for a reason. I, on the other hand, know many people who have "endured" the force-feeding of these works and still love reading to this day. In fact, a large percentage of the reading population have gone through such trials and tribulations and emerged unscathed. Frankly, according to studies on how the mind develops, the love of reading is engendered early in childhood, and should be so strong that the reading of a few unfavored books will not destroy it. The negative attitudes towards reading don't come from classes - the "cannon" approach has been used for a very long time, after all. The real problem comes from children who are exposed far too much to television and video games and far too little to books. Again, check the resentment at the door. I've spent my entire life in academia - if we abandon the idea that we know best, we just might learn something. >it's okay NOT >to like a "classic" book. That doesn't mean that they can't appreciate >other "classic" literature. You are completely correct. It IS ok not to like a "classic" book. But how can you decide whether or not you like a book until you've read it? >Yes you have raised a good point, and even though I greatly enjoy reading >and the discusion of books I feel that many english teachers are so >concerned with finding subliminal messages in books that they practically >invent some interpretations. If you read Mark Twains notes at the >begining of Huck Finn he emphatically states that it is just a story, not >some cosmic battle between good and evil, or an attempt to decry social >depravity. In fact he warns against anallysis of his book and threatens >to sue!!! Another book over analyized in my opinion is Moby Dick, almost >the entire book reads like a manual on how to hunt and kill whales. I >think english teachers would be better off assigning a tale of two cites, >which actually was written to reflect the times and send a message instead >of trying to ascribe their own motives to books like Huck Finn, which >while a good book, sould remain in the pleasure reading category, or at >least not be so overly annalyzed. Post-modernist stuff - no work has any more meaning than that ascribed to it by its reader. Don't agree. First off, you should know that Twain was a HIGHLY satirical social comentator in many things that he wrote. Second, there are lots of books that WERE written with a point, and "english teachers" aren't overreacting to demand that we analyze what we read. If you want to know the truth, then that single point is what separates literature from ordinary fiction. Literature has subtext. It has hidden meanings, metaphors, archetypes. It reaches beyond the story and delves into deeper places. We need to think, for goodness sake. If we just read to be entertained, then we are indulging in pure decadence. >from that thing at the bottom of the brain (what's it called?), basal ganglia As Montel would say: "Here are some final thoughts." It's not just the literature versus fantasy issue. The real issue here is whether or not we accept the ability to grow as people. Civilizations have been stressing education since the beginning of written history, and that process of education has always demanded that students reach beyond the normal and the comfortable. We can't learn if we refuse to reach. We may not like what we grab, and we don't have to. It's only important that we reach, and in the reaching, discover new paths. Its up to us to accept or reject these paths. John E. Morris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 03:11:40 PDT From: "Raven X" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: lotsastuff Message-ID: <19980814101140.20909.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> Heyla all!! It's been a while since I posted, and I think it's time to put in my two cents. florian wrote: ~~PS: I don't come from a good home life, not a lot of us do. Those of us who have been hurt can tell the signs the easiest. I think its our responsibility to notice these signs and help kids who went through what we did. Thats what Heralds do after all :).~~ I have to agree. I also come from a not-good family life, and it's horrifyingly easy to see who is also suffering. But I think it's not that Misty had a bad family life or childhood, it may be that she's using the books to tell us to be aware of people having this problem and try to help in any way we can. I can assure you that this is one of the problems a person can have that is very hard to solve by oneself. It's very easy to become crazy. Kalistia mentioned something about literature. Well, I think that other kinds of genre are also nice. Even the classics like Shakespeare and stuff like those. But one thing I really really DONT like: stories about space travel, spaceships, and stuff like those. Now those make me shudder. Lastly, I would like to say hi to the newbies (although I'm pretty much an "old" newbie myself): sheep-shaped goblets to JenIsKing, Dragonchilde, and Kris Walsh. Clear skies, Raven Guardian of the Floating Citadel ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:04:06 +0200 From: "Morgaine" To: Subject: RE: Braid of many things Message-ID: <000001bdc773$42424e10$656410ac-+AT+-pc01.tc-systems.ch> troll-+AT+-netcomuk.co.uk wrote: > Hear hear! That goes just as well for the UK(and probably a number of > other countries as well)as for the US. Hell, the reason we're all on > this list is because we share an interest in an author. Anyone who > thinks reading a "chore" is perhaps in the wrong place? :) Certainly > we all have different *tastes* in reading, but I would assume that > everyone on this list enjoys reading in itself :) The problem with many (not all) of the authors that they force you to read in school is that they never cared about being read by people like you and me. Being a mercenary (that is writings so that your books will be bought and paid for) is still frowned upon in some literary circles. By the way, I don't think that Mark Twain was in this category. Literary sheeps to everyone ---------------------- Morgaine, the Were-Cat A distant cousin to the Cheshire Cat Member of The Ones In Black "I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:48:15 +0200 From: "Morgaine" To: Subject: RE: Braid of many things Message-ID: <000101bdc779$6cca9d30$656410ac-+AT+-pc01.tc-systems.ch> JOHN E MORRIS wrote > I understand that this is how some people feel, and it is > this attitude > that I think needs to be changed. so many people these days > think that it is > an incredible imposition to be TOLD to do anything, yet in life we are > constantly being told to do things, by parents, by superiors > at work, by > spouses/partners; we are all independent people, yes, but we are also > members of a society. That society sometimes places demands > upon us that may > seem difficult at the outset, but it is imcumbent upon to to > carry out those > demands. I may have to do it, but this doesn't mean I have to like it. I can take orders (and polite request), but I need to understand the reason of the request and agree with it. > Post-modernist stuff - no work has any more meaning than > that ascribed > to it by its reader. Don't agree. First off, you should know > that Twain was > a HIGHLY satirical social comentator in many things that he > wrote. Second, > there are lots of books that WERE written with a point, and "english > teachers" aren't overreacting to demand that we analyze what > we read. If you > want to know the truth, then that single point is what > separates literature > from ordinary fiction. Literature has subtext. It has hidden meanings, > metaphors, archetypes. It reaches beyond the story and delves > into deeper > places. We need to think, for goodness sake. If we just read to be > entertained, then we are indulging in pure decadence. Then I think decadence is a very good thing. Sorry, but this is something I had to discuss so many times that I react badly. Of course literature has subtext and hidden meaning, but if no one read a book, what is the point in writing? If we are talking about "contemporary" literature, where the context of the reader and the writer are close enough that they don't need a translator of references, any books that is not able to entertain me (or someone else, I am not that egocentric) while I read is a waste of paper. There are more "problems" for book from a context (or an age) very far from that of the reader. This is why I appreciated those teachers that gave me the information I needed to understand those hidden meaning. But still, the book must entertain or at least communicate something to me. > Civilizations > have been stressing education since the beginning of written > history, and > that process of education has always demanded that students > reach beyond the > normal and the comfortable. We can't learn if we refuse to > reach. We may not > like what we grab, and we don't have to. It's only important > that we reach, > and in the reaching, discover new paths. Its up to us to > accept or reject > these paths. I live in Italy. We have TONS of history and they try to force it down our throats at an early age. In my case I made things worse by choosing a kind of school that stressed humanistic education. Most of my teachers were more interested in dissecting a literary work that in reading it, a fact that I find very sad. I was lucky to be addicted to reading so early that they were not able to break me out of the habit. By the way, I regret not being able to convey what I think as well as you can. To me, English is a foreign language and I am more used to reading than writing. Entertaining book sheeps to everyone ---------------------- Morgaine, the Were-Cat A distant cousin to the Cheshire Cat Member of The Ones In Black "I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 05:37:40 PDT From: "Kristjan Wager" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid of many things Message-ID: <19980814123741.14483.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> Hi listsibs First off, I want to apology. It seemed that some off you misunderstood what I meant last time with my comments to John, about convincing people that fantasy isn't the only think worth reading. we all obviously love fantasy, or at least some fantasy, but not everyone likes other literature, and especially not the cannon, and John tries hard to convince people that they should like it, and it won't work. It didn't last time, and it won't this time. So what I meant, wasn't that everyone who didn't read other stuff were/are fools, but rather that it was/is hopeless trying to convince people that they should read other stuff, than what they know they like, if they don't want to try it. Lots of people have participated in this discussion, and one thing people always seem to agree on, is that if a book is bad, you shouldn't really have to read it or like it. Well of cause it is hard to like a bad book, but sometimes bad books has to be read too, especially in school, for they tell something anyway. Someone mentioned Animal Farm ( by George Orwell ) as a example of a book they didn't like, well I hated every moment of reading it. it is boring and badly written, but I still consider it a very important book for people to read, because of the story, and more importantly what Orwell wanted to tell with the story, and that is why such books should be required reading in school, since people won't read it otherwise. Remember books are not only good or bad stories, but pictures of their time, and that it is important to read such books, so people can understand the time they were written. I'm sorry to rant like this, but I think it is important. Oh by the way, what is a forbidden book? It is an alien concept for me. well some obmisty: I have to think... Must think.. Something in connection to what I asked last time about the names of the magic types and schools. The different schools seems to be more like guidelines of behavior, so my question is, how would they make sure people follow the guidelines? with a geas? and would it be possible to change schools after you started in one ( say from the White Winds to the Twin Suns )? That is the problem with most of the main characters being heralds, the magic system outside Valdemar doesn't really get described that well. Sheep to everyone, but beware the carnivorous ones.. Absalon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:15:21 -0400 From: "Judy L. Wood" To: "mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk" Subject: Literature Message-ID: <35D43869.402DA60C-+AT+-BellSouth.Net> I had so many messages on this I just couldn't decide which one to respond to *g* So I decided "Oh well, I'll make my own." hehehehe For me, at least, it wasn't the fact I was being forced to read anything. I love to read, as someone pointed out, all of us here love to read or we wouldn't be here. I read a wide variety of things. What I didn't like was even though we discussed the work, it seemed like the teacher was almost forcing the 'canonized' interpretation down our collective throats. What I could never figure out is what gave these people the right to decide what the author meant when writing. I think the only person who could truly do that is the author. We can say 'I think this' or ' I think that', but thinking does not make it so. In 'The Devil and Daniel Webster' there is a hemlock tree in the dark woods. My English teacher said "That represents death" Yes, I know all about Socrates and the cup of hemlock. But, I kept wondering maybe the hemlock looks spooky. Never having seen one, I would not know. I can understand the person who believes they are being 'forced' to read it. But it is hard for 30 ppl to chose what they want to read and then have a discussion on it. Oh, btw, did anyone out there have the assignment of reading "A Rose for Emily"? Even though it has been 16 years since I had it, it has definitely stuck in my mind. Oh well, I think I'm through for now. Until next time, be safe. JW ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:53:52 +0200 From: "Morgaine" To: Subject: RE: Braid of many things Message-ID: <000001bdc78a$f93b0190$656410ac-+AT+-pc01.tc-systems.ch> Kristjan Wager wrote: > Oh by the way, what is a forbidden book? It is an alien > concept for me. I have the answer for this. The Roman Church (the one with the Pope) strongly opposes the concept that "there is no one true way" (this is not a flame, so please Christian do not feel insulted). In the past they could not stop people from writing books with ideas they did not like, but they could forbid Christians to read these books. So they created an "Index of forbidden books", a list of all books that were dangerous because they opposed the Christian teachings or described sinful behaviour. This index was still published and used in the twenties (I know because I had much fun reading a copy from my library and discovering what kind of books were considered dangerous). Fair weather and clear skies ---------------------- Morgaine, the Were-Cat A distant cousin to the Cheshire Cat Member of The Ones In Black "I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:17:06 -0400 From: efluharty-+AT+-juno.com (Ellen K Fluharty) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid of many things Message-ID: <19980814.101707.11006.0.efluharty-+AT+-juno.com> *Ellen shena Liha'irden sits thoughtfully, trying to sort out a very thorny problem* The reading of literature in school is necessary. It opens minds to the joys of reading, when otherwise some wouldn't bother. Also, some of the greatest works in literature are chock full of symbolism/political commentary. (The Wizard of Oz or The Grapes of Wrath, are two good examples!) If you read the first few pages of The Grapes of Wrath, which are mainly about dust, without looking for any symbolism, they would be pointless.(Another good book for this is Candide.) Reading can be joy, when you love the story and/or when it brings new understanding to you. To everyone here who is still in highschool, give every single book they want you to read a chance. You might be surprised. However, the idea that learning to do what's expected of you just because its what society wants you to do does not sit well with me. A trigonometry teacher in 11th grade told me, "If you can't learn to do your homework every night, you won't be able to keep a decent job, because you won't have the discipline." Well he was wrong. I couldn't stand trigonometry, but I do have discipline. I hated being made to do something I had no interest in. No one gave me a choice though. (But I have discipline!) As an adult though, I do have choices. And I choose not to believe in half of what the majority of our society believes. And if there weren't those that rebelled against what society expected of them, this world would be a sad place indeed. (I am not referring to the license to murder or any such thought, so no flaming sheep please!) I guess what I am trying to say is that if someone rebels at reading a book, because they are made to do it by their teacher, then good for them. While everyone here likes sheep, acting like one isn't the right thing to do. (Unless you just want to "Baaaaa" a few times or something!) But don't give up on reading the "classics", just because there were a few books that you didn't like.... Whew! I think I got my idea across. Misty often writes about characters that go against the norm. (Perhaps in more drastic and startling ways, but none the less, she does!) Misty promotes education and free thought. (Think of Rune in Bardic Voices.) I sorry, it seems as if this message will never end. *the shin'a'in slips back into the shadows, and puts up her flaming sheep shield* Ellen shena Liha'irden Lady in Green _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:33:16 PDT From: "Shadow Wolf" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: mostly fluffy braid Message-ID: <19980814143318.24588.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> Wintershard said: Okay, now that I've been the science geek that I am, I conclude with, yes, gunpowder can exist, because we just proved that all the necessary componets can exists. Assuming of course Misty didn't decide to *use* silicon based life. [which makes for really intresting sidenotes!] Hmmm... if Misty had used silicon based life would there be horta (from classic Star Trek) instead of wyrsa and would we have the crystalline entity (from STTNG) instead of Falconsbane? I would like to put my two cents in on the classic literature thread... well actually it's more of a book recommendation. Most people agree that Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is a classic. I just finished reading the sequel to this classic. It is called The Jekyll Legacy and it is very well done. It was co-written by Andre Norton and Robert Bloch (author of Pyscho). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Sunhawk said: Oh my God, I'm actually not the only one! yes, I've put myself in Misty's books And, I've also put myself on the bridge of the Enterprise (and Voyager.....and in the sickbay of DS9....). I'll go hide behind some sheep now, avoiding the weird looks..... No, you're not the only one. I've imagined myself as one of Tarma's students and I've sat in the Captain's chair on the Enterprise or at the weapons console Forgot who asked this: <> I rarely go to bed before midnight EST and if I wake up and can't get back to sleep I'm on the computer at 3 or 4 in the morning but then time is truly meaningless on the Internet. Greg Wooledge said Reflexes have an advantage in not having to travel directly from the brain; most of them come straight from the spinal cord or from that thing at the bottom of the brain (what's it called?), Oh...I remember. It's called the medulla oblongata. I think the name stuck in my mind because it's just fun to say! An obMisty...hmm...would it have been better to have Vanyel beaten and held hostage only; rather than to also have him raped, or do you think the rape was necessary to the plot? I am undecided about the question. ShadowWolf, God of Stupid Chess Moves Knight of Fluff, Founder of OOPS Bonded with Wesak and Waszzy "My mind is going...I can feel it..." --HAL-- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:58:24 -0500 From: Amy Trujillo To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: books and banned books in Valdemar Message-ID: <35D45E98.6497-+AT+-southwind.net> Hi, just wanted to express a couple of feelings on the literature thread. While I agree that all literature is important, I feel that the way some of the schools handle it is very....unfortunate. As a recent graduate of the education program in my college I can tell you that many goals of the program cared very little for the response of the student to a subject. The books are picked for their literary merit, which is not bad, but these teachers are taught how to analyze these books to death. I think that teachers waste too much time asking students what symbols existed in The Old Man In The Sea, and not enough asking the students what they think of the story. Schools may have to force feed literature to the students, but they can choose how it is done. Instead of dwelling on inconsequential facts that will have no meaning outside of the class, the teachers need to figure out how to involve the students and make the books a more pleasant experience. obMisty: speaking of books, knowing that Vanyel loved to read, do any of you think that Withen would have kept certain books away from his son? As dead set as he was against Van learning about homosexuality, do you think that he would have removed books from the library that mentioned that subject? Knowing him I think it would be a definite possibility. To whoever was asking about the covers of TLHM: I definitely agree with you. The new covers do not have any of the gilding or the raised figures. The colors also seem to be somewhat subdued, no more bright pink Yfandes. My guess would be that the books have been out for almost ten years and the company decided to cut back on costs. rasberry cheescake sheep to all, Amy Ferret Friend Lady of All Things Missing, Especially Socks ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 12:04:33 -0400 From: "Reginabean" To: Subject: Re: Braid of many things Message-ID: <199808141606.MAA03688-+AT+-smtp1.erols.com> ---------- > JOHN E MORRIS wrote: > Well, I'm sorry you don't like the cannon of accepted literature, but > it's there for a reason. I, on the other hand, know many people who have > "endured" the force-feeding of these works and still love reading to this > day. In fact, a large percentage of the reading population have gone through > such trials and tribulations and emerged unscathed. > Frankly, according to studies on how the mind develops, the love of > reading is engendered early in childhood, and should be so strong that the > reading of a few unfavored books will not destroy it. The negative attitudes > towards reading don't come from classes - the "cannon" approach has been > used for a very long time, after all. The real problem comes from children > who are exposed far too much to television and video games and far too > little to books. Again, check the resentment at the door. I've spent my > entire life in academia - if we abandon the idea that we know best, we just > might learn something. I wanted to stick my own 2 cents in here. I was taught to read at a very early age. In fact, I could read when I went to kindegarden at the age of 5. This, however, has nothing to do with how smart I am (because I am no genius). Instead, it is because my brother (who is quite a bit older than me) took the time to teach me how to read. This has lasted thru-out my life. I have just finished high school, where I had to read tons of literature without any choice in the matter. I still read like crazy. It hasn't affected me at all. Also, an important reason to read literature of the past is that the literature often can help you to understand the history of a time period better. I learned a whole lot more history in my English class then I ever did in my history class. True, the stuff I had to read was not easy to read. Beowulf, Hamlet, and Pride and Predjudice are not easy reading. However, they do give a good idea about what was going on in each of those time periods and are a whole lot more interesting than reading a history about the literature. (Sorry, I don't mean to rant, but I am not a history buff. I apologize if I've upset any history buffs out there. I know it's important. Ok, now I'm rambling. So I'll stop now.) Oh, one last thing. I do like history, just not the way I was taught it in my school. Okay, now I'll stop. :) As for what kind of character I would be in a Misty story, I'd be that mysterious person who appears out of nowhere and gives cryptic messages and seems to always know something a half a step before everyone else. And, on the gunpowder thing, someone or something could keep the Valdemarians or other countries from discovering gunpowder. (I know that someone said something along these lines, but I can't remember who or in what context. Sorry.) After all, Vanyel was able to keep the Valdemarians from remembering mage-magic, why couldn't some being keep them from discovering gunpowder ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:38:58 -0500 From: edrucker-+AT+-ruraltel.net (Ed Rucker) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid of many things Message-ID: <35D46821.E42DA11C-+AT+-ruraltel.net> JOHN E MORRIS wrote: > I understand that this is how some people feel, and it is this attitude > that I think needs to be changed. so many people these days think that it is > an incredible imposition to be TOLD to do anything, yet in life we are > constantly being told to do things, by parents, by superiors at work, by > spouses/partners; we are all independent people, yes, but we are also > members of a society. That society sometimes places demands upon us that may > seem difficult at the outset, but it is imcumbent upon to to carry out those > demands. If we can't learn to do it, without complaint, with a graciousness > of spirit, in high school, then how can we be expected to do things far more > difficult and demanding later on in life? Will you also tell your boss that > his demands on you "grate you the wrong way?" If we all did or read only the > things that were comfortable for us, we would be a poor group of people, > indeed. > > > > Frankly, according to studies on how the mind develops, the love of > reading is engendered early in childhood, and should be so strong that the > reading of a few unfavored books will not destroy it. The negative attitudes > towards reading don't come from classes - the "cannon" approach has been > used for a very long time, after all. The real problem comes from children > who are exposed far too much to television and video games and far too > little to books. Again, check the resentment at the door. I've spent my > entire life in academia - if we abandon the idea that we know best, we just > might learn something. > > > Post-modernist stuff - no work has any more meaning than that ascribed > to it by its reader. Don't agree. First off, you should know that Twain was > a HIGHLY satirical social comentator in many things that he wrote. Second, > there are lots of books that WERE written with a point, and "english > teachers" aren't overreacting to demand that we analyze what we read. If you > want to know the truth, then that single point is what separates literature > from ordinary fiction. Literature has subtext. It has hidden meanings, > metaphors, archetypes. It reaches beyond the story and delves into deeper > places. We need to think, for goodness sake. If we just read to be > entertained, then we are indulging in pure decadence. > > It's not just the literature versus fantasy issue. The real issue here > is whether or not we accept the ability to grow as people. Civilizations > have been stressing education since the beginning of written history, and > that process of education has always demanded that students reach beyond the > normal and the comfortable. We can't learn if we refuse to reach. We may not > like what we grab, and we don't have to. It's only important that we reach, > and in the reaching, discover new paths. Its up to us to accept or reject > these paths. > > John E. Morris I have been reading this thread for quite a while now and was just getting ready to put my thoughts into a cohesive whole - then, Lo and Behold! John did it for me. This post is truly great. I remember reading Animal Farm in high school, and if I had just been assigned to read it on my own with no direction, I would have come away from it thinking that it was a cute story about some animals. But, by teaching about the Russian Revolution along with the book - as it should be done - I got so much more out of it. It is now one of my favorites from the "canon". Amy said: >do any of you think that Withen would have kept certain books away from his son? Considering the time period that we are discussing, how many books discusssing homosexuality would a small noble have? I have two points here. One - Were there many books written about this taboo subject in our world during the similar time period? Two - How extensive of a library would Withen have since all books then would have had to been handwritten. (I know that we have done the printing press idea, but I truly don't think that it had been invented in Van's time.) IMHO, Withen wouldn't have had any "problem" books to remove in the first place. Well, my son wants to play blue's clues on the computer! WTTW Mintrel Clarienne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:18:29 -0700 From: "Rhiannon" To: "Mercedes Lackey Mailing List" Subject: Gunpowder Message-ID: >And, on the gunpowder thing, someone or >something could keep the >Valdemarians or other countries from discovering >gunpowder. (I know that >someone said something along these lines, but I >can't remember who or in >what context. Sorry.) After all, Vanyel was able to >keep the Valdemarians >from remembering mage-magic, why couldn't some >being keep them from >discovering gunpowder I don't think the Gods (or Goddesses) would do something like that. For one thing, they are not all-seeing, all-knowing beings. They don't know everything and cannot always tell the future (I'm talking about Velgarth's gods here, not the Christian God) They are not going to hold back the scientific progress just because somewhere along the way someone MIGHT discover something that MIGHT be destructive someday. Also, they gave people free will, and that means they won't interfere unless it's something that would destroy all of humanity or something. Now if atomic weapons were a possibility, I think it's possible they might step in there, but I really don't think they'd keep the Velgarthians(?) from discovering or using gunpowder. --- Becky Singer of Fire (soprano) ********************************************************************************* "The first ten million years were the worst," said Marvin, "and the second ten million years, they were the worst too. The third ten million I didn't enjoy at all. After that I went into a bit of a decline." See my webpage at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Labyrinth/6697 Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere! http://www.mailexcite.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:24:09 -0700 From: Jenni Halpin To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Withen's Library Message-ID: <35D480C9.1CBC-+AT+-uor.edu> > >Amy said: do any of you think that Withen would have kept certain books away from his son?< < > Considering the time period that we are discussing, how many books discusssing homosexuality would a small noble have? I have two points here. One - Were there many books written about this taboo subject in our world during the similar time period? Two - How extensive of a library would Withen have since all books then would have had to been handwritten. (I know that we have done the printing press idea, but I truly don't think that it had been invented in Van's time.) IMHO, Withen wouldn't have had any "problem" books to remove in the first place. Mintrel Clarienne< Three, Withen couldn't read. I'm with you all the way, here, Clarienne. -Jenni. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:40:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Allen Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid of many things Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, JOHN E MORRIS wrote: > That society sometimes places demands upon us that may seem difficult at > the outset, but it is imcumbent upon to to carry out those demands. If > we can't learn to do it, without complaint, with a graciousness of > spirit, in high school, then how can we be expected to do things far > more difficult and demanding later on in life? Surely you are not advocating mindless compliance with societal expectations, here. In fact, it is not incumbent upon us to do things simply because society asks or requires it of us. If that were true, and if people really lived by that, the Civil Rights movement, the Rennaissance, and any number of other historical changes would never have happened. However, if you mean that we need to learn to be reasonably civil while doing things that we don't particularly like to do, then I would agree. However, I would also, quite politely, avoid doing those things that I see no reason for doing. > Will you also tell your boss that his demands on you "grate you the > wrong way?" Ah, but here's the thing. I get paid to put up with my boss. I got nothing in return for putting up with the demands of my HS teachers besides indemnity from punishment. Which is hardly a fact that is likely to inspire much beyond resentment. Now, mind you, the good teachers did come up with ways of rewarding scholarship, but in general, requirements were broadly phrased as "you will do X or bad things will happen to you." In fact, my education was pretty much independant of my classes. If something was presented in class that was interesting, I learned it. If it was not intereting, I memorized it for the test and then promptly forgot it. This is pretty common in education. In fact, most modern educational techniques are designed to make the information being taught more interesting and accessible, precisely because people do only seem to "learn" things that interest them. > Well, I'm sorry you don't like the cannon of accepted literature, but > it's there for a reason. Of course it is. A canon exists to protect and preserve specific ideological and academic interests. This is true of any canon (and there are many different canons, not merely the mainstream Euro-American English canon, but also the feminist canon, the queer canon, etc.) A canon is simply an official or unofficial body of works that are considered worthy of academic study by a particular interest group. Unfortunately, the existence of a canon (which privileges certain books) implies that books outside the canon are unworthy of study, and in some way inferior to the books in the canon. While this attitude is not universal by any stretch of the imagination, it *is* a pervasive one in academe and one that that I find most indefensible. > Frankly, according to studies on how the mind develops, the love of > reading is engendered early in childhood, and should be so strong that the > reading of a few unfavored books will not destroy it. I have to ask this: What studies, and what authors? > The real problem comes from children who are exposed far too much to > television and video games and far too little to books. What problems are we talking about here? The decline in the reading public? I don't know the actual figures, but given the growth of superstores like Borders, Barnes and Noble, B. Dalton's, I really can't believe that the reading public is diminishing much. In fact, I seem to recall a number of reports in the news and popular media citing a growth in book sales and in the size of the publishing market. Mind you, there are probably contradictory reports out there, too, so I'm not sure what can be made out of it, but the fact remains that stores like Border's continue to do a land-office business. > You are completely correct. It IS ok not to like a "classic" book. But how > can you decide whether or not you like a book until you've read it? Why should you have to read a book simply because someone else likes it, if it doesn't appeal to you. Essentially, required readings are nothing more than people trying to force their opinions about what is good and worthwhile on others. > Post-modernist stuff - no work has any more meaning than that ascribed > to it by its reader. You are deliberately mis-representing post-modernism. This is a simplistic statement that obscures the underlying idea that reader knowledge, including knowledge about the author's intentions, the context of the writing, and general knowledge about history and the like, contribute to the meaning of the text. > If you want to know the truth, then that single point is what separates > literature from ordinary fiction. Literature has subtext. This is a vacuous distinction, since there is no such thing as text without context and subtext. By your definition, every text is "literature." Which I happen to agree with, btw. > It has hidden meanings, metaphors, archetypes. It reaches beyond the > story and delves into deeper places. This is true for any written text to a greater or lesser extant. I'll admit, the subtext of a physics textbook is a little less obvious than it is in a novel, but it is still there. For example, I recommend the works of Sandra Harding for an analysis of the patriarchal and hetero-centric subtexts of the "hard" sciences. A clearer distinction would be between texts with conscious intentional subtexts as part of the author-meaning and texts where the subtext is unintentional or subconscious. Event this however, doesn't provide a dividing line between "literature" and "fiction." I don't know of any fiction that doesn't have some author-meaning to it. And lest we forget, some of the "greatest" authors of "literature" were writing primarily to entertain. Many in fact, disavowed any greater goal than to entertain their readers, although most of them did have secondary goals. Camus, for example, explicitly stated that "good writers have commentators; great writers have readers" and Shakespeare was clearly writing to entertain first, with any educational goals running a distant second. To say that Shakespeare is a great writer, while dismissing contemporary popular authors (Misty springs to mind) as "ordinary fiction," is to ignore the simple facts of the matter. Shakespeare is no better nor worse than Misty, with no more nor less meaning to his texts. He is older and has the backing of the educational establishment. That is all. A reasonably educated mind, bringing a wealth of knowledge to the text, and the skills to apply that knowledge, will find Misty or any other popular writer as full of subtext and symbolism as any play that Shakespeare ever wrote. Certainly as much as anything by Jane Eyre, or Chaucer, or Dickens, or Twain. And come to think of it, all of these "great" authors were "popular" authors in their time and wrote to entertain and sell books. BTW, one last point. How is it possible to read without "learning" anything? The only way that I can imagine this happening is if the reader immediately forget everything about the book, down to the least detail. Otherwise, it seems like even the fluffiest book would to some degree increase the reader's knowledge base, and that is the essence of education. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd Councilor of Mist Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me //www.ling.udel.edu/hyde/prof/ken.html ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1685 **********************************