MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1808 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) RE: A few more Demon references by "Rhiannon Shadowsong" 2) Re: firesong vs an'desha by tan3-+AT+-cornell.edu 3) RE: A few more Demon references by "Najar, L. EM2" 4) Re: Arthurian legends by Dainestar-+AT+-aol.com 5) Re: Arthurian legends by Jolizith-+AT+-aol.com 6) RE: A few more Demon references by Femmy Syahrani 7) Arthurian Legends and Demon references by "Oceania Angels" 8) RE: A few more Demon references by "Najar, L. EM2" 9) Karse-Moslem issue by Samantha 10) Karse religion, Jadrek by Autumnleaf-+AT+-t-online.de (Autumnleaf) 11) Re: firesong vs an'desha by "Starspirit" 12) Re: firesong/islam/ by "Angie" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 11:26:06 PST From: "Rhiannon Shadowsong" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: RE: A few more Demon references Message-ID: <19981208192607.15858.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> Oooh! Cultures! I love babbling about stuff like this..... Femmy: >2. why you think Karse mindset is related to Islam. I don't see any >similarity between the two. One word: jihad. Unless I mean the other word we learned so many years ago in World History and the jihad is the pilgramage to Mecca. I think that the jihad is the great holy war, used to convert people forcefully to Islam. They [the Turks] pretty much left Jews and christians alone, figuring that although they were messed up, they were still following the same God. But all other peoples were to be converted to the one true way. I also see the Will of Allah thing in the obedience to Vkandis. And what little we know of the actual culture is definitely Middle Eastern. If I were more knowledgable I might poinpoint a region, but I'm not so I will leave that to others. That's close enough to an ObMisty, right? Sure. Wind to thy wings, Rhiannon Shadowsong ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:29:56 -0500 (EST) From: tan3-+AT+-cornell.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: firesong vs an'desha Message-ID: Ok, like others, I have tried, but have failed, to resist adding to the Firesong and An'desha thread. I don't think that An'desha betrayed Firesong in anyway beyond not being the lifebond-partner that Firesong craved. An'desha wasn't what Firesong wanted, and he would have made them both miserable trying to pretend to be the other half of a lifebond. Would it have been better for An'desha to stop his growth toward independence, which is what Firesong was pushing him towards in the first place? He still cares for Firesong very much, but the relationship would have been limiting for both of them. One of the main problems, IMHO, was that the beginning of the break came at a time when Firesong was weakest anyway, with the Storms affecting him indirectly through the land. They made him unreasonable, unforgiving, impatient, and generally unbalanced to begin with, so he started seeing plots where none existed, and he took An'desha's growing independence as a much more personal thrust against him. I really felt for An'desha through this section. While I loved Firesong with his flair and poise, I've been in a situation before where I swore to someone that I would never leave them, but then felt us growing apart through the years. When I finally did leave him, he threw my words back in my face ('cause of course I wasn't feeling enough pain at that point, don't'cha know), but then, months later he admitted to me that I was right and that we were both pretty unhappy together at the end. Of course, now he's married and stable and happy and all, and I'm still single, so who's to say who was right, no? :) Anyway, them's my thoughts. :) Cheers! Zephyr tan3-+AT+-cornell.edu "I have not failed 10,000 times. I have merely found 10,000 ways that will not work." Thomas Edison (on the eve of his 10,000th experiment) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 23:35:03 -0500 From: "Najar, L. EM2" To: "'mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk'" Subject: RE: A few more Demon references Message-ID: <024B2C3CB44ED2118B4B00204804FB4601477326-+AT+-CVN65UEX01> Ok, here I am in the Middle East as we speak. UAE (United Arab Emirates) Dubai to be exact. Well most of us "insolent pig dogs" LOL follow a few rules in any of these Islamic countries. First and foremost women are not as important as men (everything up until the end of the mage winds trilogy). Sorry if I'm a little slow but part of navy life is being slightly inebriated :-) Second is the truism of religion. Try visiting any Middle Eastern country. It is very apparent that religion is a major factor of life. In the common dress, and attitude towards anyone that is not one of their own. You find yourself an outsider, isolated as I think that the Vlademarian's are to the Karsian's. The books title I believe was "A concise study of Dijjon(Demons) "according to the Koran" don't quote me on that as I saw it for about 5 min. Then I saw the 15 dollar price tag on a 60-70 page book that I wouldn't spend if it was...well a signed copy of Swords and Sorceresses Vol. ? (which ever one had the first appearance of Kethy and Tarma). Well...ok maybe I would but then again I am very fickle. Sorry for not responding well but I am physically and mentally exhausted from a long day of work and play ;) Doray Ashwind -----Original Message----- From: Rhiannon Shadowsong [SMTP:rhiannon13_-+AT+-hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 2:49 PM To: najarl-+AT+-enterprise.navy.mil Subject: RE: A few more Demon references Oooh! Cultures! I love babbling about stuff like this..... Femmy: >2. why you think Karse mindset is related to Islam. I don't see any >similarity between the two. One word: jihad. Unless I mean the other word we learned so many years ago in World History and the jihad is the pilgramage to Mecca. I think that the jihad is the great holy war, used to convert people forcefully to Islam. They [the Turks] pretty much left Jews and christians alone, figuring that although they were messed up, they were still following the same God. But all other peoples were to be converted to the one true way. I also see the Will of Allah thing in the obedience to Vkandis. And what little we know of the actual culture is definitely Middle Eastern. If I were more knowledgable I might poinpoint a region, but I'm not so I will leave that to others. That's close enough to an ObMisty, right? Sure. Wind to thy wings, Rhiannon Shadowsong ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 18:08:27 EST From: Dainestar-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Arthurian legends Message-ID: <9fde283.366db16b-+AT+-aol.com> Short delurk! << does anyone know of any > good books that retell the lengend of king arthur and guinevere and morgan > le fay and all of that??? >> Didn't Jennifer Roberson write one, Lady of the Forest, or something like that? I haven't read it, but I think it's about that. And there's one called The Child Queen by Nancy Mackenzie which I've read a liked a lot. obMisty: um...um..........I've noticed in a few books Misty has the Hollywood syndrome.....she pairs young women with men twice their age, like Kethry and Jadrek and Rune and Talaysen. How bout that?? (lame but I'm only delurking you see) Daine High Llama Priestess of Gad ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:08:31 EST From: Jolizith-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Arthurian legends Message-ID: In a message dated 12/8/98 7:48:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dainestar-+AT+-aol.com writes: << Didn't Jennifer Roberson write one, Lady of the Forest, or something like that? >> That's about Robin Hood, now back to lurking. Jolizith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 09:42:44 +0700 From: Femmy Syahrani To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: RE: A few more Demon references Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981209094244.0069e69c-+AT+-pop3.melsa.net.id> The first Misty book I read was Storm Warning, and the story begins with two priests, Karal and his teacher. Since in Islam there are no priests, it never occured to me to compare Karse with Islam when I read that book or any other Valdemar book from there on. On a further note, I always feel that the "religious atmosphere" in Velgarth is ... I don't know ... pagan maybe (not that I know anything about that). No one true way ... All gods are aspects of one god (even Vkandis)... I always had the impression that Misty wants to portray those beliefs in her stories. The best way to portray something in a story, is to contrast it with another. So if you want the "no one true way, all gods are aspects of one god" to stand out in a story, then you have to have another people with the "one true way, one true god" belief to be the contrast. I think that's what Karse is, a contrast as a tool for the story, not taken from any existing religion in the world. Doray Ashwind: >First and foremost women are not as important as men (everything up until the end of the >mage winds trilogy). Too many cultures say that about women, not just "Islam". IIRC, even women in the US couldn't vote until they had the amendment in 1920's (??). Anyway, when I read the books, I only thought of it only as a common cultural thing, not specifically Islamic. But I can see where you got that impression, with the headcloth and women staying at home and everything. Hmm ... reminds me of my own country. Presidential election is coming up and one of the people running for President is a woman. Some people really do say that she can't be President because the Koran says so. But not all. Others interpret the Koran differently and want her as President. It's all a matter of interpretation. But I ramble ... > Second is the truism of religion. Try visiting any Middle Eastern >country. It is very apparent that religion is a major factor of life. In >the common dress, and attitude towards anyone that is not one of their own. >You find yourself an outsider, isolated as I think that the Vlademarian's >are to the Karsian's. Never felt that way, so no comment :) Rhiannon: >One word: jihad. Unless I mean the other word we learned so many years >ago in World History and the jihad is the pilgramage to Mecca. That's hajj :) >I think that the jihad is the great holy war, used to convert people >forcefully to Islam. They [the Turks] pretty much left Jews and christians >alone, figuring that although they were messed up, they were still >following the same God. But all other peoples were to be converted to the one >true way. Hmm ... I've always thought that jihad is a holy war to *defend* Islam, not to convert. We've never been told (by the Koran) to convert other people into Islam because only God can do that (change people's hearts). >I also see the Will of Allah thing in the obedience to Vkandis. What thing??? :) >And what little we know of the actual culture is definitely Middle Eastern. Such as ...? I'm a Muslim but I don't live in the Middle East so I don't know anything about Middle Eastern culture. :) Femmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 20:24:46 PST From: "Oceania Angels" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Arthurian Legends and Demon references Message-ID: <19981209042447.8045.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> Heyla all! Persia Wooley (Can anyone guess how I remember her name? ) did a great Arthurian Legend trilogy from Guenivere's PoV. I think It was a trilogy anyway. I only read the first two books. Anyway, they're called "Child of the Northern Spring" and "Queen of the Summer Stars". I wish I knew what the third was.... A. A. Attansio(sp?) did two Arthurian books too. They're called "The Dragon and the Unicorn" and "The Eagle and the Sword". I don't know if they're any good though. I haven't managed to read them yet. I think there's probably a book in David Gemmel's Stones of Power series (I think that's what it's called) that has King Arthur in it. I'm gonna get into that series some day too. Don't forget the Snow Demon that Tarma mentioned in the beginning of Oathbreakers. On the Misty tape Oathbound there's two songs about it too. 'Snowbeast', the official song about it, and 'Hindsight' which is a song from one of Tarma's teachers perspective. (He died killing it) Stars light your path, Sorana S. Stargem Herald-trainee, %-+AT+-"So free for a moment High Priestess to the Goddess%-+AT+-Lost somewhere between the earth and of Unicorns, %-+AT+-the sky Goddess of Flions, %-+AT+-So free for a moment Knight of Amber and Marigold,%-+AT+-Lost because I want to be lost Knight of the OOUH %-+AT+-Don't try to find me" -+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+---The Martinis ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 07:17:49 -0500 From: "Najar, L. EM2" To: "'mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk'" Subject: RE: A few more Demon references Message-ID: <024B2C3CB44ED2118B4B00204804FB4601477328-+AT+-CVN65UEX01> In response to the Karse/Islamic reference: It was just my humble opinion and nothing else. Didn't mean to start a string of religious discussions :-( Doray Ashwind -----Original Message----- From: Femmy Syahrani [SMTP:femmy-+AT+-melsa.net.id] Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 10:39 PM To: najarl-+AT+-enterprise.navy.mil Subject: RE: A few more Demon references The first Misty book I read was Storm Warning, and the story begins with two priests, Karal and his teacher. Since in Islam there are no priests, it never occured to me to compare Karse with Islam when I read that book or any other Valdemar book from there on. On a further note, I always feel that the "religious atmosphere" in Velgarth is ... I don't know ... pagan maybe (not that I know anything about that). No one true way ... All gods are aspects of one god (even Vkandis)... I always had the impression that Misty wants to portray those beliefs in her stories. The best way to portray something in a story, is to contrast it with another. So if you want the "no one true way, all gods are aspects of one god" to stand out in a story, then you have to have another people with the "one true way, one true god" belief to be the contrast. I think that's what Karse is, a contrast as a tool for the story, not taken from any existing religion in the world. Doray Ashwind: >First and foremost women are not as important as men (everything up until the end of the >mage winds trilogy). Too many cultures say that about women, not just "Islam". IIRC, even women in the US couldn't vote until they had the amendment in 1920's (??). Anyway, when I read the books, I only thought of it only as a common cultural thing, not specifically Islamic. But I can see where you got that impression, with the headcloth and women staying at home and everything. Hmm ... reminds me of my own country. Presidential election is coming up and one of the people running for President is a woman. Some people really do say that she can't be President because the Koran says so. But not all. Others interpret the Koran differently and want her as President. It's all a matter of interpretation. But I ramble ... > Second is the truism of religion. Try visiting any Middle Eastern >country. It is very apparent that religion is a major factor of life. In >the common dress, and attitude towards anyone that is not one of their own. >You find yourself an outsider, isolated as I think that the Vlademarian's >are to the Karsian's. Never felt that way, so no comment :) Rhiannon: >One word: jihad. Unless I mean the other word we learned so many years >ago in World History and the jihad is the pilgramage to Mecca. That's hajj :) >I think that the jihad is the great holy war, used to convert people >forcefully to Islam. They [the Turks] pretty much left Jews and christians >alone, figuring that although they were messed up, they were still >following the same God. But all other peoples were to be converted to the one >true way. Hmm ... I've always thought that jihad is a holy war to *defend* Islam, not to convert. We've never been told (by the Koran) to convert other people into Islam because only God can do that (change people's hearts). >I also see the Will of Allah thing in the obedience to Vkandis. What thing??? :) >And what little we know of the actual culture is definitely Middle Eastern. Such as ...? I'm a Muslim but I don't live in the Middle East so I don't know anything about Middle Eastern culture. :) Femmy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 01:37:11 -0500 From: Samantha To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Karse-Moslem issue Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981209013711.007b09d0-+AT+-is6.nyu.edu> Jihad: A religious war against infidels or Mohammedan heretics; also, any bitter war or crusade for a principle or belief. n : a holy war by Muslims against unbelievers Love, Sam. "Cogito, ergo singularis." [I think, therefore I am single.] -Lizz Winstead ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:32:04 +0100 From: Autumnleaf-+AT+-t-online.de (Autumnleaf) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Karse religion, Jadrek Message-ID: Heyla all, No Newbies around? That will send Torell into Sulking Mode. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Rhiannon Shadowsong wrote: >They [the Turks] pretty much left Jews and christians alone, >figuring that although they were messed up, they were still following >the same God. But all other peoples were to be converted to the one >true way. This is not quite true. The Turks invaded most of Southern Europe which was Christian at that time (I am very bad at remembering dates). Naturally, their religion of state was the Islam. They were finally defeated at Vienna and driven back but some "pockets" of Islam remained (e.g. Bosnia). I'm not sure if the Turks (and the Osmans before them) conquered other countries to enlarge their Empire or if they did so to spread their religion. Maybe both went hand in hand. > I also see the Will of Allah thing in the obedience to Vkandis. This Will of Vkandis thing does apply to the other monotheistic religions as well. Just think of the Christians during the Middle Ages. They were forcing everybody (including Moslems and Jews) to convert. People who would not want to convert were the sworn enemies of God which were either killed or only allowed to live in Ghettoes. The Jews for example were only permitted a handful of occupations, as moneylenders for instance, i.e. jobs that Christians were either not allowed or considered not in accordance with the Will of God. The hatred towards Moslems and Jews - although their God is very similar to if not the same as the Christian God - finally led to the Crusades which were Holy Wars against the Unbelievers in the Holy Land. IMO the Karse religion has more similarities to Christianity. The Catholic Church, for ex., has a lot of pomp attached to its services, "luxury" robes for their priests and very extensive and impressive ceremonies. > what little we know of the actual culture is definitely Middle Eastern. > If I were more knowledgable I might poinpoint a region, but I'm not so I > will leave that to others. The culture could also be Europe during the Middle Ages: the level of technology, the superstition and prejudice of the uneducated, education for a minority, no democraty, etc. (this applies both to Valdemar and Karse). In Europe, the Industrial Revolution started in Great Britain and reached other countries decades later (Germany was considered a developping country at the end of the 19th century.) so this is not a contradiction. Femmy wrote: >I always had the impression that Misty wants to portray those beliefs in her >stories. The best way to portray something in a story, is to contrast it with >another. I agree. I also thought Misty wanted to show that religion is a private matter, that everyone should be allowed to believe what s/he wants and live in peace with her/his neighbour even if their believes contradict each other. Karal is a very good model to show how one can learn something about other cultures and religions, accept their ways and still believe in his own religion. I liked that. Daine wrote: >obMisty: um...um..........I've noticed in a few books Misty has the Hollywood >syndrome.....she pairs young women with men twice their age, like Kethry and >Jadrek and Rune and Talaysen. How bout that?? (lame but I'm only delurking you >see) Yes, but Kethry was the one to hunt Jadrek down. In Hollywood movies, it is always the man who takes the girl, isn't it? BTW, I liked Jadrek a lot. Would have chosen him myself. :) Oh, this was a long one! I hope you didn't get bored. ;p Wind to THy Wings and hot chestnuts to your ovens (yummi) Shantaya Autumnleaf without Torell the Jester Wearer of the Water-Proof MOkassins ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:51:15 +0800 From: "Starspirit" To: Subject: Re: firesong vs an'desha Message-ID: <199812091031.SAA14206-+AT+-copper.singnet.com.sg> >well, it's all PoV... but iirc, it seemed like an'desha left firesong (hereforth >known as FS) first.. with his spending all day with the artificers and karal. FS >paid attn to silverfox (initially) only to gain an'desha's attn... >what FS wanted was a love in his life, i guess (who doesn't) and when an'desha >started heading mystical and "the artificers are right" when FS plainly detested >the artificers, no doubt FS just felt bitter abt the whole thing (remember the >phrase about dumping this r/s before it started to stink?) >and i don't know abt FS not being able to make an'desha unhappy. iirc, in SR, >that was _precisely_ what he wanted to do to an'desha. unfortunately, his plans >backfired... which led to an'desha wandering further off, and that scene with >aya in his ekele... Starspirit coming out of lurkdom... I thought part of what FS did was due to the changes in his brain, because of the state the land was in, and because he was a healing-adept? Silverfox was explaining all that to him after the scene in the ekele (poor aya, poor Firesong *sniff*). In silverfox's words, the changes made him'quick to anger and slow to reason'. and made him 'see enemies and conspiracies' where there were none. Zhai'helleva Starspirit~** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:04:54 +0800 From: "Angie" To: Subject: Re: firesong/islam/ Message-ID: <01be237c$e5e8aae0$0100007f-+AT+-heraldtg> :unfortunately, his plans :>backfired... which led to an'desha wandering further off, and that scene :with aya in his ekele... and Starspirit wrote: :Starspirit coming out of lurkdom... I thought part of what FS did was due to :the changes in his brain, because of the state the land was in, and because :he was a healing-adept? Silverfox was explaining all that to him after the :scene in the ekele (poor aya, poor Firesong *sniff*). In silverfox's words, :the changes made him'quick to anger and slow to reason'. and made him 'see :enemies and conspiracies' where there were none. heylo! someone drawn out of lurkdom eh? we ought to do sth abt these pple too...like sploshing only kinder... ;) ok ok... yep poor Firesong... now why can't we hear those words oftener? *big mischievous grin* anyhowz, the backfiring of his plans only aided in provoking firesong into that rage... at least, that's what i meant... about vkandis as allah: oh gods, please, not another religion flurry... okay, while holy wars may occur with the muslims, as they do with the karsites, they also occur within other religions for crying outloud! that is no reason to connect karse with islam. pls, islam can be more ... touch-y than catholicism. esp when you are in certain places. no offence to the muslims. and none to the beginner of this thread... minty sheep to all... cools ya down y'know? :) ( ) Wind to thy Wings <==+==> Shadowblade mindmate to Raul, Elven archer-mage of Fairgrove | | High Priestess of the Goddess of the Elves, and of OOPS | | Grand Dame of the Order of the Namers, Singer of Fire(Alto) | | Member of the Order of Unsung Heroes (Eldan, Eric, and Terenil!) | | Member of the Mistic Circle, Visit my Homepage ~> \/ http://members.tripod.com/~Shadowblade ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1808 **********************************