MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1810 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 1808 by "Shatter Star" 2) Re: Religions by "Rhiannon Shadowsong" 3) Re: Karse religion/van's appearance in AotQ by Becky Cary 4) Braid by Yvonne 5) Ang moh/questions? by "Starspirit" 6) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 1808 by "Mo Zaman" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:44:25 PST From: "Shatter Star" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 1808 Message-ID: <19981210194426.25531.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> This muslim/islamic/karsite thread... Interesting. Very interesting. Hmmm... Brings to mind a certain song... My ObMisty...I know what my Christmas (albeit whatever religious holiday you celebrate, even "Happy Atheism Day" which JUST HAPPENS to fall on the 25th of December...) present is...The LHM Trilogy. The only reason I am certain of it is because my sis has read it in front of me at least 3 times. Will be shocked if she doesn't open it up just to read it one more time before the big day... When is Burning Brightly/Brightly Burning (I do think it is the former but it's been so long since I posted that I darn well forgot) getting here? Don't tell me it's already here! (I am one who forgot to mention she champions Lavan Firestorm in her OOUH signature...grrr...and this is before the rumor of the book was out! Arrrgh...) I had a nice piece of fluff prepared for my return to this list, but I think not, it's much too soon for an official return. ^_~ ~Shigatsu, also known as Jeanne Riverwolf, with that very large tiger, Serran ni' Grotto, attached at the mind. Likewise the founder of the OLW, likewise a Knight Champion for Griffon, Hyllarr, and Lavan Firestorm, OOUH. aaka Aerith, Nevanni, Masqurin, Relm, and occasionally even April, to give the name in English. (singing):There are jews in the world, there are buddhists, there are hindus and mormons and then... There are those that follow Mohammed's books...Ive never been one of them... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:20:03 PST From: "Rhiannon Shadowsong" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Religions Message-ID: <19981210202005.6797.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> FLUFF~*~*~*~ ::A tall woman in black that seems all fuzzy 'round the edges materializes from the shadows in the back of the Hall:: Heyla all! Today is a good day: We voted for senior favorites, and I workd hard at thinking of anti-social and psychotic people for Mr and Ms Tor and Best All Around. Since we lack the "Most Likely to Become the Next Unabomber" and "Most Likely to Assassinate the President of Guam" categories. And, shockingly, I'm getting nominations for Most Courteous. And from people who've known me for years! I think the I'm-normal-leave-me-alone facade has worked too well. I'm also getting nominations for Wittiest. There is however, no hope that I shall win, since that is mostly a popularity award rather than a true representation of the senior class. And Peter Pan opens tonight. Ball High has a darn good drama dept, so that's great too. And I get to write poetry for extra credit in English. Hehehe. On to Misty List stuff... END FLUFF~*~*~*~*~ Betha'lis: > >In any case, even if Velgarth (did I miss something here - shouldn't it be >Valdemar?) is "enlightened" in the ways it handles religion, aren't they then >forcing all religions to follow particular tenents of their religion - or at >least, their view of religion? By that I mean, aren't they forcing all >religions to accept the idea that all worship is really to the same god. just a >thought. > That's primarily what the *govt* of Valdemar believes, and they just say "Leave every one else alone or we'll kick your collective butt." So they don't force everybody to believe in the one god with many faces, they just force everyone to accept that other people worship other gods and that's all there is too it. In most books, the characters are like "Wow! There are other religons in Valdemar besides mine!" So there isn't really much to it, just a decree to leave other creeds alone. Shadowblade: >heck, the books don't say >that there >was another Herald there, did they? (referring to Vanyel, btw) Actually, I think that was one of those things where the Chronicler of the time wrote themselves in. Didn't they do that kind of stuff a lot, after they'd written down the bare, dry facts? Cennydd: >I would be interested in knowing the source of these definitions. >They >seem to be accurate definitions of what "jihad" has come to mean in >the >English language; however, I would be willing to bet that the >original >meaning of "jihad" in Arabic is somewhat different. Words are very >slippery things, even when your working with versions of the same >language. When you throw in translation and diachronic change >(change >over time), it just gets worse. Actually, "jihad" isn't an English word. It's the Arabic word, I don't know why they use it instead of saying "Holy War". 've always figured it didn't translate as that exactly. The original or archaic Arabic meaning may be different, but the modern English is probably as close as it can come to the modern Arabic. ::gasp:: Summarize Paradise Lost? ::shudder:: That's what I spent the last two weeks doing... I still have all my notes if you *really* want them. It's a few pages, but very thorough. I liked Paradise Lost pretty well until I heard the stupid snobby preppy people (my how alliterative!) gave us their...interpretations. It's amazing how so many people who speak English as their native language seem to think that the English of Milton and Shakespeare is from another planet... Sorry, I'm ranting, and I'll shut up. A warning for those who need one: Milton was a raving misogynist. So he made Eve dumb as a stump, and made Sin female. And Adam ate the apple so that Eve would not be alone in her damnation, not out of any sinfulness on his part. Bah. I will shut up now, really I will! Wind to thy wings, Rhiannon Shadowsong ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:35:20 -0500 (EST) From: Becky Cary To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Karse religion/van's appearance in AotQ Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Kenneth Allen Hyde wrote: > Hmmm. You know, that's actually a comparison that never really made sense > to me. The Tayledras don't seem to have much in common with any of the > Native American cultures with which I'm familiar. A few superficial (and > misleading) details, perhaps, but that's about it. Actually, that's a comparison that had never even occurred to me. I don't really see that one, honestly. Tree-dwelling, attached to birds -- the only thing I'm coming up with would be the whole "stewardship of the land and its creatures" thing and the tendency to use feathers ornamentally. They may be closer to some of the people native to South American rainforests -- I know there's at least one tribe of tree-dwellers; I just don't remember what they're called. As for the "Karsites as Moslems" thing, this may be a fine distinction to make, but I never quite thought of the Karsites as being like Moslems so much as the Karsites being perceived by the people/nations around them the way that much of the non-Moslem world thinks of Islamic nations. People from outside Karse have this picture of it as a scary, oppressive, fanatical mass entity without the same value systems or regard for individual rights. I am not saying that Islam is all these things -- I am saying that people tend to regard it as such. Contrast the "Karsites as brigands" versus the "Arabs as terrorists" stereotype, for example. > What are "ang mohs"? I was wondering that too. > think that we can make a good generalization by saying that people > (anywhere, not just in the US) tend not to know as much about religions > and cultures to which they do not belong, and that they have a tendency to > fill the deficiencies with "stereotypes" that they have been taught. Agree. When I took a freshman seminar in college on classical Islam, I signed up for it expecting to be amazed at how much of what I had "known" was wrong. It met my expectations. I was so blown away by the salutary (hope I spelled that right) experience of having my assumptions challenged that I've become something of a dabbler in religious/cultural studies. (Time-consuming hobby for a bio major.) > examples--hermanita, "los gallegos? *sonrio*)? Huh? > > ugh... can someone out there summarize milton's paradise lost? why oh > > why did i pick that book up to read for fun? > > Let's see. Satan gets uppity, God gets pissy, Satan gets kicked out. > That's about it. Oh, and lots and lots of poetry. =) I actually kind of liked it. And you left out the "Adam & Eve get uppity, God gets pissy, Adam & Eve get kicked out" bit. Satan gets all the best lines, too. (When I made that observation to my father (that Satan was a lot more interesting than his ex-boss), he replied, "That's why it's the eternal struggle between good and evil. If good were not only better than evil but also more interesting and more fun, it wouldn't be a contest. That's why it's not the eternal struggle between good and quilting.") And all conversations between God and Jesus can basically be summarized thusly: "Wow, you're really amazing." "Yeah, but that's because you made me like you. You're even more amazing." "You're so beautiful and good." "But you're even more beautiful and good!" "Anyone here feel like dying for man's sins?" "I will, Dad!" "I knew you would, son, because you're like me, so you're amazing." "But you're even more amazing." Etc. I just got a new friend hooked on the Velgarth books -- I'm so proud of myself. He got irritated in AotQ, though, when Talia didn't sleep with Skif. One final note: I have a new ambition in life. After Christmas, when the things are in stores again, I want to obtain a Furby and teach it rude and lascivious words instead of more "standard" English. Hey, everybody needs a dream. Becky -------------- In general, France is a safe travel destination, though travelers are advised that, from time to time, it is invaded by Germany. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:28:31 -0800 From: Yvonne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Braid Message-ID: <3670591F.2500-+AT+-planet.eon.net> [OOC: Sorry if this gets sent twice - I never got a copy back so I'm going to send it again. Don't hurt me, people!!] Heyla!! *A door opens in the middle of the hall, letting through a swirl of snow and a young lady dressed in a '70's sheepskin coat, a velvet scaft, a red toque, mittens, and boots. In her hand she is carrying a frost scraper.* Yes, it's me! I've come out of self-imposed lurkerdom for a breif while! And I swear that after a few more mornings, I shall be crowned Queen of the Window Scrapers! Aront thee, Jack! *For no paticular reason she lobbs a snowball at Sorana, which hits only because Yvonne's using her Goddess-powers. * Ice wrote: > i've got a WONDERFUL book that i'm going to suggest everyone try and > read...i also love Tanya Huff and she has a book called "Summon the > Keeper"....it's set in modern day, is very-much fantasy, and is > HILARIOUS... YES. READ IT. YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO. I thought that it was hilarious as well - it's nice to see a Canadian setting too! (ok, so I'm a little biased here) It was wonderful - a French Canadian ghost is a nice concept and trying to explain icing to a non-hockey fan (or a slightly behind the times one) is just as hard as it says! Also, I could really feel for Jaques when he said he learnt his English from Morningside - GAH! My parets listen to CBC and that's almost worse than hell! ON WHICH ORDER TO READ MERCEDES LACKEY'S BOOKS: I read Arrows first - then LHM. But someone was commenting that you need to read then chronologically. Well, Arrows explained everything VERY nicely and so I launched into LHM no problem, although the ending had already been spoilt. I also read BtS before T&K - no problems there either, although there were a FEW hazy spots (like the promise made to Vademar by Rethwellan, etc...) Well, can't think of squat more to say, and as I really MUST go do my English now (due tomorow) I must depary from this fair Hall! Until we meet again! Yvonne Goddess, Bucket (tm) Carrier, Kight, Lady, CfWD member, and all around lazy person. (which is why she's included no quote) (And which is also why she abbrvd her sig) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:30:31 +0800 From: "Starspirit" To: Subject: Ang moh/questions? Message-ID: <199812110133.JAA25089-+AT+-copper.singnet.com.sg> >> What are "ang mohs"? >I was wondering that too. Just a term for caucasians in general, literally 'red hair' in chinese dialect. I see a fellow Singaporean on the list... I need to ask a few questions, hope y'all don't mind. 1.) If you want to become a Tayledras, then does your persona start out life in the clan, or does he/she have to be an outsider who joins the clan, or what?2.) How do the Tayledras 'test' the kids for magic, and when? 3.) What's an Obmisty? Zhai'helleva Starspirit~** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:57:20 PST From: "Mo Zaman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 1808 Message-ID: <19981211035726.10063.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> Zhai'helleva How could I let a Karsite/Islam discussion w/ out throwing in my 2 cents? You're right, I couldn't, so here goes! First off you might be wondering what, if anything, I know about Islam. Let's just say I'm Islamic, and I consider myself decently knowledgeable on the topic. As for the demonology bit, all my life, through all the religious stories I was told and prayers I learned, I never heard a word on the topic. In fact, I wonder if demonology even exists in Islam....I highly doubt it, but if it does (I may be mistaken), myself and no one I know who's Islamic has heard about it before. Fear of demons is most certainly not used to strike fear into the hearts of Muslim children, nor are Islamic people mind-controled zombies with fanatical devotion to Vkandis. And the matter of jihad. I was always told jihad meant "a search for justice," ie. a form of defense and protecting others from injustice. The word is associated with holy war only because in history, Islamic people were persecuted a lot(like all religions) and wars were usually the result of the search for justice. Again, if anyone knows better feel free to let me know....but that's what I've been told all along, and it's what I believe. Women and Islam. There are many many Islamic country's where women are most certainly the equal of men. Admittedly not all Islamic countries are like that, but hey, change takes time- it did for the U.S. and w/ women voting, as someone pointed out. Let's not condemn all Islamic countries because of those that still consider the status of women as being lower than men. I come from an Islamic country (Bangladesh), where the head of the goverment(the equivalent of the U.S President) is a woman. She's the leader of the country. An Islamic country, I might add. Even the U.S hasn't had female presidents yet. So again, change takes time, so don't judge too hastily. So that's it. Thanks for putting up w/ it. Not totally Misty-related, but I felt it needed to be said. B'rev, rider of bronze Raisynth >From mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Thu Dec 10 10:13:22 1998 >Received: from vanyel (localhost [127.0.0.1]) > by vanyel.herald.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA25301 > for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:13:38 GMT >Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:13:38 GMT >Message-Id: <199812091813.SAA25301-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> >Errors-To: lackey-owner-+AT+-herald.co.uk >Reply-To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk >Originator: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk >Sender: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk >Precedence: bulk >From: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk >To: journeyman00-+AT+-hotmail.com >Subject: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 1808 >X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas >X-Comment: Mercedes Lackey Mailing List > > MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1808 > >Topics covered in this issue include: > > 1) RE: A few more Demon references > by "Rhiannon Shadowsong" > 2) Re: firesong vs an'desha > by tan3-+AT+-cornell.edu > 3) RE: A few more Demon references > by "Najar, L. EM2" > 4) Re: Arthurian legends > by Dainestar-+AT+-aol.com > 5) Re: Arthurian legends > by Jolizith-+AT+-aol.com > 6) RE: A few more Demon references > by Femmy Syahrani > 7) Arthurian Legends and Demon references > by "Oceania Angels" > 8) RE: A few more Demon references > by "Najar, L. EM2" > 9) Karse-Moslem issue > by Samantha > 10) Karse religion, Jadrek > by Autumnleaf-+AT+-t-online.de (Autumnleaf) > 11) Re: firesong vs an'desha > by "Starspirit" > 12) Re: firesong/islam/ > by "Angie" > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 11:26:06 PST >From: "Rhiannon Shadowsong" >To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk >Subject: RE: A few more Demon references >Message-ID: <19981208192607.15858.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> > >Oooh! Cultures! I love babbling about stuff like this..... > >Femmy: >>2. why you think Karse mindset is related to Islam. I don't see any >>similarity between the two. > >One word: jihad. Unless I mean the other word we learned so many years >ago in World History and the jihad is the pilgramage to Mecca. I think >that the jihad is the great holy war, used to convert people forcefully >to Islam. They [the Turks] pretty much left Jews and christians alone, >figuring that although they were messed up, they were still following >the same God. But all other peoples were to be converted to the one >true way. >I also see the Will of Allah thing in the obedience to Vkandis. And >what little we know of the actual culture is definitely Middle Eastern. >If I were more knowledgable I might poinpoint a region, but I'm not so I >will leave that to others. >That's close enough to an ObMisty, right? Sure. >Wind to thy wings, >Rhiannon Shadowsong > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >------------------------------ > >Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:29:56 -0500 (EST) >From: tan3-+AT+-cornell.edu >To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk >Subject: Re: firesong vs an'desha >Message-ID: > > >Ok, like others, I have tried, but have failed, to resist adding to the >Firesong and An'desha thread. I don't think that An'desha betrayed >Firesong in anyway beyond not being the lifebond-partner that Firesong >craved. An'desha wasn't what Firesong wanted, and he would have made them >both miserable trying to pretend to be the other half of a lifebond. >Would it have been better for An'desha to stop his growth toward >independence, which is what Firesong was pushing him towards in the first >place? He still cares for Firesong very much, but the relationship would >have been limiting for both of them. One of the main problems, IMHO, was >that the beginning of the break came at a time when Firesong was weakest >anyway, with the Storms affecting him indirectly through the land. They >made him unreasonable, unforgiving, impatient, and generally unbalanced >to begin with, so he started seeing plots where none existed, and he took >An'desha's growing independence as a much more personal thrust against >him. > >I really felt for An'desha through this section. While I loved Firesong >with his flair and poise, I've been in a situation before where I swore >to someone that I would never leave them, but then felt us growing apart >through the years. When I finally did leave him, he threw my words back >in my face ('cause of course I wasn't feeling enough pain at that point, >don't'cha know), but then, months later he admitted to me that I was >right and that we were both pretty unhappy together at the end. Of >course, now he's married and stable and happy and all, and I'm still >single, so who's to say who was right, no? :) > >Anyway, them's my thoughts. :) > >Cheers! > >Zephyr >tan3-+AT+-cornell.edu >"I have not failed 10,000 times. I have merely >found 10,000 ways that will not work." > Thomas Edison (on the eve of his 10,000th experiment) > >------------------------------ > >Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 23:35:03 -0500 >From: "Najar, L. EM2" >To: "'mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk'" >Subject: RE: A few more Demon references >Message-ID: <024B2C3CB44ED2118B4B00204804FB4601477326-+AT+-CVN65UEX01> > >Ok, here I am in the Middle East as we speak. UAE (United Arab Emirates) >Dubai to be exact. Well most of us "insolent pig dogs" LOL follow a few >rules in any of these Islamic countries. First and foremost women are not >as important as men (everything up until the end of the mage winds trilogy). >Sorry if I'm a little slow but part of navy life is being slightly >inebriated :-) > Second is the truism of religion. Try visiting any Middle Eastern >country. It is very apparent that religion is a major factor of life. In >the common dress, and attitude towards anyone that is not one of their own. >You find yourself an outsider, isolated as I think that the Vlademarian's >are to the Karsian's. > The books title I believe was "A concise study of Dijjon(Demons) >"according to the Koran" don't quote me on that as I saw it for about 5 min. >Then I saw the 15 dollar price tag on a 60-70 page book that I wouldn't >spend if it was...well a signed copy of Swords and Sorceresses Vol. ? (which >ever one had the first appearance of Kethy and Tarma). > Well...ok maybe I would but then again I am very fickle. Sorry for >not responding well but I am physically and mentally exhausted from a long >day of work and play ;) > >Doray Ashwind > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rhiannon Shadowsong [SMTP:rhiannon13_-+AT+-hotmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 2:49 PM > To: najarl-+AT+-enterprise.navy.mil > Subject: RE: A few more Demon references > > Oooh! Cultures! I love babbling about stuff like this..... > > Femmy: > >2. why you think Karse mindset is related to Islam. I don't see any > >similarity between the two. > > One word: jihad. Unless I mean the other word we learned so many >years > ago in World History and the jihad is the pilgramage to Mecca. I >think > that the jihad is the great holy war, used to convert people >forcefully > to Islam. They [the Turks] pretty much left Jews and christians >alone, > figuring that although they were messed up, they were still >following > the same God. But all other peoples were to be converted to the one > > true way. > I also see the Will of Allah thing in the obedience to Vkandis. And > > what little we know of the actual culture is definitely Middle >Eastern. > If I were more knowledgable I might poinpoint a region, but I'm not >so I > will leave that to others. > That's close enough to an ObMisty, right? Sure. > Wind to thy wings, > Rhiannon Shadowsong > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >------------------------------ > >Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 18:08:27 EST >From: Dainestar-+AT+-aol.com >To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk >Subject: Re: Arthurian legends >Message-ID: <9fde283.366db16b-+AT+-aol.com> > >Short delurk! > ><< does anyone know of any > > good books that retell the lengend of king arthur and guinevere and morgan > > le fay and all of that??? >> > >Didn't Jennifer Roberson write one, Lady of the Forest, or something like >that? >I haven't read it, but I think it's about that. And there's one called The >Child Queen by Nancy Mackenzie which I've read a liked a lot. > >obMisty: um...um..........I've noticed in a few books Misty has the Hollywood >syndrome.....she pairs young women with men twice their age, like Kethry and >Jadrek and Rune and Talaysen. How bout that?? (lame but I'm only delurking you >see) > >Daine >High Llama Priestess of Gad > >------------------------------ > >Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:08:31 EST >From: Jolizith-+AT+-aol.com >To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk >Subject: Re: Arthurian legends >Message-ID: > >In a message dated 12/8/98 7:48:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dainestar-+AT+-aol.com >writes: > ><< Didn't Jennifer Roberson write one, Lady of the Forest, or something like > that? >> > >That's about Robin Hood, now back to lurking. > >Jolizith > >------------------------------ > >Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 09:42:44 +0700 >From: Femmy Syahrani >To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk >Subject: RE: A few more Demon references >Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981209094244.0069e69c-+AT+-pop3.melsa.net.id> > >The first Misty book I read was Storm Warning, and the story begins with >two priests, Karal and his teacher. Since in Islam there are no priests, it >never occured to me to compare Karse with Islam when I read that book or >any other Valdemar book from there on. > >On a further note, I always feel that the "religious atmosphere" in >Velgarth is ... I don't know ... pagan maybe (not that I know anything >about that). No one true way ... All gods are aspects of one god (even >Vkandis)... I always had the impression that Misty wants to portray those >beliefs in her stories. The best way to portray something in a story, is to >contrast it with another. So if you want the "no one true way, all gods are >aspects of one god" to stand out in a story, then you have to have another >people with the "one true way, one true god" belief to be the contrast. I >think that's what Karse is, a contrast as a tool for the story, not taken >from any existing religion in the world. > >Doray Ashwind: >>First and foremost women are not as important as men (everything up until >the end of the >mage winds trilogy). >Too many cultures say that about women, not just "Islam". IIRC, even women >in the US couldn't vote until they had the amendment in 1920's (??). >Anyway, when I read the books, I only thought of it only as a common >cultural thing, not specifically Islamic. But I can see where you got that >impression, with the headcloth and women staying at home and everything. >Hmm ... reminds me of my own country. Presidential election is coming up >and one of the people running for President is a woman. Some people really >do say that she can't be President because the Koran says so. But not all. >Others interpret the Koran differently and want her as President. It's all >a matter of interpretation. But I ramble ... > >> Second is the truism of religion. Try visiting any Middle Eastern >>country. It is very apparent that religion is a major factor of life. In >>the common dress, and attitude towards anyone that is not one of their own. >>You find yourself an outsider, isolated as I think that the Vlademarian's >>are to the Karsian's. >Never felt that way, so no comment :) > >Rhiannon: >>One word: jihad. Unless I mean the other word we learned so many years >>ago in World History and the jihad is the pilgramage to Mecca. >That's hajj :) > >>I think that the jihad is the great holy war, used to convert people >>forcefully to Islam. They [the Turks] pretty much left Jews and christians >>alone, figuring that although they were messed up, they were still >>following the same God. But all other peoples were to be converted to the >one >>true way. >Hmm ... I've always thought that jihad is a holy war to *defend* Islam, not >to convert. We've never been told (by the Koran) to convert other people >into Islam because only God can do that (change people's hearts). > >>I also see the Will of Allah thing in the obedience to Vkandis. >What thing??? :) > >>And what little we know of the actual culture is definitely Middle Eastern. >Such as ...? I'm a Muslim but I don't live in the Middle East so I don't >know anything about Middle Eastern culture. > >:) >Femmy > >------------------------------ > >Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 20:24:46 PST >From: "Oceania Angels" >To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk >Subject: Arthurian Legends and Demon references >Message-ID: <19981209042447.8045.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> > >Heyla all! > > Persia Wooley (Can anyone guess how I remember her name? ) did a >great Arthurian Legend trilogy from Guenivere's PoV. I think It was a >trilogy anyway. I only read the first two books. Anyway, they're called >"Child of the Northern Spring" and "Queen of the Summer Stars". I wish I >knew what the third was.... > A. A. Attansio(sp?) did two Arthurian books too. They're called "The >Dragon and the Unicorn" and "The Eagle and the Sword". I don't know if >they're any good though. I haven't managed to read them yet. > I think there's probably a book in David Gemmel's Stones of Power >series (I think that's what it's called) that has King Arthur in it. I'm >gonna get into that series some day too. > > Don't forget the Snow Demon that Tarma mentioned in the beginning of >Oathbreakers. On the Misty tape Oathbound there's two songs about it >too. 'Snowbeast', the official song about it, and 'Hindsight' which is a >song from one of Tarma's teachers perspective. (He died killing it) > > > Stars light your path, > Sorana S. Stargem >Herald-trainee, %-+AT+-"So free for a moment >High Priestess to the Goddess%-+AT+-Lost somewhere between the earth and >of Unicorns, %-+AT+-the sky >Goddess of Flions, %-+AT+-So free for a moment >Knight of Amber and Marigold,%-+AT+-Lost because I want to be lost >Knight of the OOUH %-+AT+-Don't try to find me" >-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+-%-+AT+---The Martinis > > > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >------------------------------ > >Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 07:17:49 -0500 >From: "Najar, L. EM2" >To: "'mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk'" >Subject: RE: A few more Demon references >Message-ID: <024B2C3CB44ED2118B4B00204804FB4601477328-+AT+-CVN65UEX01> > >In response to the Karse/Islamic reference: >It was just my humble opinion and nothing else. >Didn't mean to start a string of religious discussions :-( > >Doray Ashwind > > -----Original Message----- > From: Femmy Syahrani [SMTP:femmy-+AT+-melsa.net.id] > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 10:39 PM > To: najarl-+AT+-enterprise.navy.mil > Subject: RE: A few more Demon references > > The first Misty book I read was Storm Warning, and the story begins >with > two priests, Karal and his teacher. Since in Islam there are no >priests, it > never occured to me to compare Karse with Islam when I read that >book or > any other Valdemar book from there on. > > On a further note, I always feel that the "religious atmosphere" in > Velgarth is ... I don't know ... pagan maybe (not that I know >anything > about that). No one true way ... All gods are aspects of one god >(even > Vkandis)... I always had the impression that Misty wants to portray >those > beliefs in her stories. The best way to portray something in a >story, is to > contrast it with another. So if you want the "no one true way, all >gods are > aspects of one god" to stand out in a story, then you have to have >another > people with the "one true way, one true god" belief to be the >contrast. I > think that's what Karse is, a contrast as a tool for the story, not >taken > from any existing religion in the world. > > Doray Ashwind: > >First and foremost women are not as important as men (everything up >until > the end of the >mage winds trilogy). > Too many cultures say that about women, not just "Islam". IIRC, even >women > in the US couldn't vote until they had the amendment in 1920's (??). > Anyway, when I read the books, I only thought of it only as a common > cultural thing, not specifically Islamic. But I can see where you >got that > impression, with the headcloth and women staying at home and >everything. > Hmm ... reminds me of my own country. Presidential election is >coming up > and one of the people running for President is a woman. Some people >really > do say that she can't be President because the Koran says so. But >not all. > Others interpret the Koran differently and want her as President. >It's all > a matter of interpretation. But I ramble ... > > > Second is the truism of religion. Try visiting any Middle >Eastern > >country. It is very apparent that religion is a major factor of >life. In > >the common dress, and attitude towards anyone that is not one of >their own. > >You find yourself an outsider, isolated as I think that the >Vlademarian's > >are to the Karsian's. > Never felt that way, so no comment :) > > Rhiannon: > >One word: jihad. Unless I mean the other word we learned so many >years > >ago in World History and the jihad is the pilgramage to Mecca. > That's hajj :) > > >I think that the jihad is the great holy war, used to convert >people > >forcefully to Islam. They [the Turks] pretty much left Jews and >christians > >alone, figuring that although they were messed up, they were still > >following the same God. But all other peoples were to be converted >to the > one > >true way. > Hmm ... I've always thought that jihad is a holy war to *defend* >Islam, not > to convert. We've never been told (by the Koran) to convert other >people > into Islam because only God can do that (change people's hearts). > > >I also see the Will of Allah thing in the obedience to Vkandis. > What thing??? :) > > >And what little we know of the actual culture is definitely Middle >Eastern. > Such as ...? I'm a Muslim but I don't live in the Middle East so I >don't > know anything about Middle Eastern culture. > > :) > Femmy > >------------------------------ > >Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 01:37:11 -0500 >From: Samantha >To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk >Subject: Karse-Moslem issue >Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981209013711.007b09d0-+AT+-is6.nyu.edu> > >Jihad: > A religious war against infidels or Mohammedan heretics; > also, any bitter war or crusade for a principle or belief. > > n : a holy war by Muslims against unbelievers > >Love, >Sam. > > >"Cogito, ergo singularis." [I think, therefore I am single.] > >-Lizz Winstead > >------------------------------ > >Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:32:04 +0100 >From: Autumnleaf-+AT+-t-online.de (Autumnleaf) >To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk >Subject: Karse religion, Jadrek >Message-ID: > >Heyla all, > >No Newbies around? That will send Torell into Sulking Mode. Tsk, tsk, tsk. > >Rhiannon Shadowsong wrote: >>They [the Turks] pretty much left Jews and christians alone, >>figuring that although they were messed up, they were still following >>the same God. But all other peoples were to be converted to the one >>true way. > >This is not quite true. The Turks invaded most of Southern Europe which was >Christian at that time (I am very bad at remembering dates). Naturally, their >religion of state was the Islam. They were finally defeated at Vienna and driven >back but some "pockets" of Islam remained (e.g. Bosnia). >I'm not sure if the Turks (and the Osmans before them) conquered other countries >to enlarge their Empire or if they did so to spread their religion. Maybe both >went hand in hand. > >> I also see the Will of Allah thing in the obedience to Vkandis. > >This Will of Vkandis thing does apply to the other monotheistic religions as >well. Just think of the Christians during the Middle Ages. They were forcing >everybody (including Moslems and Jews) to convert. People who would not want to >convert were the sworn enemies of God which were either killed or only allowed >to live in Ghettoes. The Jews for example were only permitted a handful of >occupations, as moneylenders for instance, i.e. jobs that Christians were either >not allowed or considered not in accordance with the Will of God. >The hatred towards Moslems and Jews - although their God is very similar to if >not the same as the Christian God - finally led to the Crusades which were Holy >Wars against the Unbelievers in the Holy Land. >IMO the Karse religion has more similarities to Christianity. The Catholic >Church, for ex., has a lot of pomp attached to its services, "luxury" robes for >their priests and very extensive and impressive ceremonies. > >> what little we know of the actual culture is definitely Middle Eastern. >> If I were more knowledgable I might poinpoint a region, but I'm not so I >> will leave that to others. > >The culture could also be Europe during the Middle Ages: the level of >technology, the superstition and prejudice of the uneducated, education for a >minority, no democraty, etc. (this applies both to Valdemar and Karse). In >Europe, the Industrial Revolution started in Great Britain and reached other >countries decades later (Germany was considered a developping country at the >end of the 19th century.) so this is not a contradiction. > >Femmy wrote: >>I always had the impression that Misty wants to portray those beliefs in her >>stories. The best way to portray something in a story, is to contrast it with >>another. > >I agree. I also thought Misty wanted to show that religion is a private matter, >that everyone should be allowed to believe what s/he wants and live in peace >with her/his neighbour even if their believes contradict each other. Karal is a >very good model to show how one can learn something about other cultures and >religions, accept their ways and still believe in his own religion. I liked >that. > >Daine wrote: >>obMisty: um...um..........I've noticed in a few books Misty has the Hollywood >>syndrome.....she pairs young women with men twice their age, like Kethry and >>Jadrek and Rune and Talaysen. How bout that?? (lame but I'm only delurking you >>see) > >Yes, but Kethry was the one to hunt Jadrek down. In Hollywood movies, it is >always the man who takes the girl, isn't it? BTW, I liked Jadrek a lot. Would >have chosen him myself. :) > >Oh, this was a long one! I hope you didn't get bored. ;p > >Wind to THy Wings and hot chestnuts to your ovens (yummi) >Shantaya Autumnleaf without >Torell the Jester >Wearer of the Water-Proof MOkassins > > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:51:15 +0800 >From: "Starspirit" >To: >Subject: Re: firesong vs an'desha >Message-ID: <199812091031.SAA14206-+AT+-copper.singnet.com.sg> > > > >>well, it's all PoV... but iirc, it seemed like an'desha left firesong >(hereforth >>known as FS) first.. with his spending all day with the artificers and >karal. FS >>paid attn to silverfox (initially) only to gain an'desha's attn... >>what FS wanted was a love in his life, i guess (who doesn't) and when >an'desha >>started heading mystical and "the artificers are right" when FS plainly >detested >>the artificers, no doubt FS just felt bitter abt the whole thing (remember >the >>phrase about dumping this r/s before it started to stink?) >>and i don't know abt FS not being able to make an'desha unhappy. iirc, in >SR, >>that was _precisely_ what he wanted to do to an'desha. unfortunately, his >plans >>backfired... which led to an'desha wandering further off, and that scene >with >>aya in his ekele... > > >Starspirit coming out of lurkdom... I thought part of what FS did was due to >the changes in his brain, because of the state the land was in, and because >he was a healing-adept? Silverfox was explaining all that to him after the >scene in the ekele (poor aya, poor Firesong *sniff*). In silverfox's words, >the changes made him'quick to anger and slow to reason'. and made him 'see >enemies and conspiracies' where there were none. > >Zhai'helleva >Starspirit~** > > > >------------------------------ > >Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:04:54 +0800 >From: "Angie" >To: >Subject: Re: firesong/islam/ >Message-ID: <01be237c$e5e8aae0$0100007f-+AT+-heraldtg> > > >:unfortunately, his plans >:>backfired... which led to an'desha wandering further off, and that scene >:with aya in his ekele... > > >and Starspirit wrote: >:Starspirit coming out of lurkdom... I thought part of what FS did was due to >:the changes in his brain, because of the state the land was in, and because >:he was a healing-adept? Silverfox was explaining all that to him after the >:scene in the ekele (poor aya, poor Firesong *sniff*). In silverfox's words, >:the changes made him'quick to anger and slow to reason'. and made him 'see >:enemies and conspiracies' where there were none. > > >heylo! someone drawn out of lurkdom eh? we ought to do sth abt these pple >too...like sploshing only kinder... ;) > >ok ok... yep poor Firesong... now why can't we hear those words oftener? *big >mischievous grin* anyhowz, the backfiring of his plans only aided in provoking >firesong into that rage... at least, that's what i meant... > >about vkandis as allah: >oh gods, please, not another religion flurry... >okay, while holy wars may occur with the muslims, as they do with the karsites, >they also occur within other religions for crying outloud! that is no reason to >connect karse with islam. pls, islam can be more ... touch-y than catholicism. >esp when you are in certain places. > >no offence to the muslims. and none to the beginner of this thread... > >minty sheep to all... cools ya down y'know? :) > > ( ) Wind to thy Wings ><==+==> Shadowblade mindmate to Raul, Elven archer-mage of Fairgrove > | | High Priestess of the Goddess of the Elves, and of OOPS > | | Grand Dame of the Order of the Namers, Singer of Fire(Alto) > | | Member of the Order of Unsung Heroes (Eldan, Eric, and Terenil!) > | | Member of the Mistic Circle, Visit my Homepage ~> > \/ http://members.tripod.com/~Shadowblade > > > >------------------------------ > >End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1808 >********************************** > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1810 **********************************