MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1911 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Elspeth order by "ambermoon starshadow" 2) Re: Names by "Sorana Stargem" 3) Re:Elspeth bitch order by Shawna Turner 4) Re:Elspeth bitch order/lots of other stuff by "* Winddancer *" 5) Re:Elspeth bitch order/lots of other stuff by Becky Cary 6) Re:Elspeth bitch order by "Herald Katherine" 7) braid by "Amy Lea-Anne Tracey" 8) The Talia thing by Miranda Warren ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:14:44 PST From: "ambermoon starshadow" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Elspeth order Message-ID: <19990321051444.16206.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> Heyla, Starshadow wrote: >Ooooooooh! *Waves hands in the air* I want to join! I want to join! >As for a name... hmmm... how bout Lovers of Bitches, or Royal >Defenders of The Brat, or Throne Abdicaters Anonymous *g* sorry, I >couldn't resist, I do so love Elspeth, and irony, and sarcasm. But >seriously, I would be interested in joining such an order. I would >also love join join the Order of Amber and Marigold. *Puts on >dramatic airs* I would defend Vanyel with my dying breath!!!!!! >(<-----bwahahahahahaha!) Herald Katherine wrote: >HELLOOOOOOOO AMBERMOON............ >well, i'll tell you what. no matter what you call your order, i am >in for sure. perhaps we could call it "bitches unite" or "bitches >anon." and we could have cool meetings where we confess all our >bitch-acts in the last week. (hehe, we'd be there for HOURS!). yes >elspeth in definately my favorite, and if all goes well when i'm old >enough, hers will be my middle name. (i don't have one, and i always >knew i would pick one eventually, so why not use her?) Katherine >Elspeth MacLennan. has a nice ring to it don't you think? okay well >anyway i'm going to make this short and just say COUNT ME IN. Fireheart wrote: >I personally agree. Not too many people realize the actual depth in >Elspeth. Some do... but a lot of friends of mine who have read the >series think she's just a Bitch. Period. Well... she IS... but >there's more to her ;-) *honestly has an idea for a name* I know it's >kinda corny... but with her being bound to a Tayledras... Society of >the Featherbound? ya think? Course this is just me. And count me >in... I may be male, but I can be worse than Elspeth on a bad day >when I wanna ;-) Starshadow wrote: > Oh I wanna join...I wanna join. Thank you everyone who responded! I like the suggestions for names, though I think at the moment I'm a little partial to 'Royal Defenders of the Brat'. I like the ones relating to bitches, but as someone else pointed out, the term is not always a complimentary one, and there is far more to Elspeth than just that aspect of her. But thank you everyone, we must work this out! (insert adjective here) sheep to all, Ambermoon Singer of Fire Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:26:58 PST From: "Sorana Stargem" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Names Message-ID: <19990321052659.18939.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> Heyla all! Lovesinger wrote: >Sorana S. Stargem wrote: >> I found one of Misty's names in another author's book! In Mickey >>Zucker Reichert's "The Last of the Renshai" there was an archer named >>Ancar. He was a good guy, but he didn't live very long. >--------- > Did you like him? I think it would be very hard to like another >character named Ancar (or any other villian) even if it was in a book by >a different author in a totally different setting. I guess it's just >that once you get to know a character as "evil," the name picks up those >connotations. Maybe it's just me! :) Well, like I said, he didn't live for very long. About four pages at most. I didn't have _time_ to like him. :) I just thought it was cool to find one of Misty's names in a completely different book. I seem to remember having seen Valdir in a non-Misty book too. I have no idea where that was though. Hmmm....I have nothing else to say. I guess I'd better sign off then. :) Stars light your path, Sorana S. Stargem Herald-trainee, %-+AT+-"So free for a moment High Priestess to the Goddess%-+AT+-Lost somewhere between the earth and of Unicorns, %-+AT+-the sky Goddess of Flions, %-+AT+-So free for a moment Knight of Amber and Marigold,%-+AT+-Lost because I want to be lost Knight of the OOUH %-+AT+-Don't try to find me" --The Martinis http://www.angelfire.com/wa/mylagoon/index.html Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:37:00 -0800 From: Shawna Turner To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re:Elspeth bitch order Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990320213700.008e6750-+AT+-mail.music.vt.edu> At 01:32 AM 3/21/99 GMT, you wrote: > >>>Ambermoon wrote: >>> >>><< Say, does anyone think that after this we need an order to >defend >>> Elspeth, like Firesong has the Singers of Fire and Vanyel has the >>Order >>> of Amber and Marigold (which I would like to join if possible)? >Anyone >>> interested? If so, can anyone think of a name? >> Heyla, Thought i'd delurk again to chip in to this conversation.... How bout Elspeth's Echoes or Arrow's of Elspeth? Enclave of Elspeth Defenders? Just another random offering.... or two...or three.... As for Elspeth being a bitch or self centered... i have to admit i really could see a lot of similarilities w/own reactions and what Elspeth did (hence that desire to defend her! :-))...in other words, in the situations she was placed in, i think i would have prolly reacted very similarly... Perhaps she is a control freak, but that most likely comes from not having BEEN in control for most of her childhood. (that's always my excuse/reason for my own responce) If you grow up thinking that you are/have been/can be absolutely awful, or weak, you will be willing to do almost -anything- to avoid becoming that way again. (which is exactly what Hulda pounded into her head - that she was weak and fear ridden, which was then re-enforced by her having to come face to face with the Royal Brat she'd become) You will second guess yourself alot, but knowing that you are doing it, simply become more pig-headed in responce, simply so that something gets DONE, instead of sitting around bemoaning it, or waiting for someone else to fix it, which will most likely never happen. It's sort of a catch 22. Plus, even when she was being sarcastic, imho, it was sort of a way of laughing at the world, or putting things in a way that couldn't be mis-understood, even though it seems to annoy some people rather badly. I always thought of it as a side effect of being strong willed, and able to think, combined with a lack of patience. Making her likely to want to fix (right now mind you) all the "silly" things she sees happening around her, by simply thwopping people over the head with her logic till they get the point. Not the most tactful way of doing it, but rather effective you have to admit. :-) *back to lurking in the starshade....* sheep shaped rasberry chocolate truffles to all, starmane/shawna ------------------------------------------ when all else fails, . . . . . . . breathe. ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:36:09 PST From: "* Winddancer *" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re:Elspeth bitch order/lots of other stuff Message-ID: <19990321073611.3891.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> Greetings and merry meet to all! It seems rather unlikely that anyone here would remember me, as I've been in school-induced lurkdom for...around six months, I think. But to any bucket-weilding listsibs or custard-wielding jesters out there, I'm not a newbie!!! I just thought I'd add my $.02 worth to a few threads, and possibly introduce some new ones. Ambermoon wrote: < Say, does anyone think that after this we need an order to defend > Elspeth, like Firesong has the Singers of Fire and Vanyel has the >Order > of Amber and Marigold (which I would like to join if possible)? Anyone > interested? If so, can anyone think of a name? >> Well, I can't think of a name, but COUNT ME IN!!!! Elspeth is one of my favorite Velgarthians, and I look at her bitchiness (a term I choose to use in a positive way) as more a sense of assertiveness and independence. I can empathize with her wish not to be led around by her nose by the Companions and their mysterious plans for her life...I also liked the way she handled Skif's delusions--probably stemming from his infatuation for her--that she couldn't take care of herself. I wanted to beat him senseless when he kept hanging over her shoulder and telling her how to act when they were posing as Mercenaries--she was doing a lot better job than him!...and at times when he did something blatantly dangerous and stupid (like when digging a far-too-shallow trench around the fire in the Dorisha Plains) and she simply re-did it, despite his glares...I thought it took great self-control on her part not to murder him. She was also very determined, and acheived all the gouls she set out for...but IMO, things weren't so very easy for her, as someone suggested. Though I must admit that I was upset with her when she kept throwing herself at Firesong...but then again, in her place, how many of us wouldn't have? I mean, /look/ at him!;) She was also a self-agknowledged Bitch (she said so when they were traveling from Forst Reach to Haven, remember? 'the most selfish bitch in Valdemar', I think her words were, though I suppose they weren't entirely serious). She just didn't like to be controlled. And in my opinion, she didn't really want to control others, either...She did abdicate, after all, and she would have had control as a monarch (and this wasn't because of Darkwind, either...in the beginning, she was thinking how her little pottery shed was about the biggest kingdom she ever wanted to rule). On the Talia and Kris thread, though I do think that they at least suspected the lifebond, and Talia was difinitely interested in Dirk--heck, she told Kris to tell her all about him the night of the first day they started shovelling snow, and by that time, she and Kris had already slept together--this is fairly constant with the general outlook on sex in Valdemar. It tends to be very casual, and since Talia and Kris did care a lot about each other, even if neither wished or expected it to be a lasting relationship, it was fairly natural. Anyway, it was bloody cold there, and that was the easiest way to stay warm!;) Now for the new topics I wanted to mention. What if there were a strongly Gifted child in Valdemar, so strongly Gifted, and whose Gifts were so active, that (s)he had to become a Herald simply in order to learn how to control them, but who had a completely improper mentality for one? Would some poor Companion Choose him/her in the hopes that (s)he could be changed (which I suppose, in a way, is what happened to Vanyel, though 'Fandes knew he would come to alter his thought-patterns into those befitting a Herald) or what? (I rather think this is what happened to--oh, what was his name? the Herald who was trying to kill Ghost and accused Tashir of murdering everyone in the castle. Was it Loren? Li'sa'eer, I hated that man! He was /not/ fit to be a Herald, IMNSHO, but he had a powerful Fetching Gift.) Or what if there were a person who would devote his/her life to Valdemar, with the perfect mindset for a Herald, who wished more than anything to be Chosen, but had no Gifts? All the Herlads we've met, as far as I know, have had some Gift or another, even if it was weak. Do you have any opinion on what would happen in the case of such scenarios? Also, about Van's Healing Gift... ::watches with dismay as listsibs run in terror at the sound of the old, worn out inconsistency:: No, wait, I'm not pointing out the inconsistency, but rather think I might have a way to explain it away. (I love doing that. inconsistencies in books annoy me so much!) Wouldn't it be possible that, at some later point than the rest of his Channels were blasted open, after Savil made the observation that he didn't have Healing Gift, this single remaining channel were to open? There was a lot of time in between books for this to happen, and since Gifts are usually made active by a truamatic experience, and Van was sure to have had plenty of those off fighting on the borders, it seems pluasible, doesn't it? ::looks up hopefully:: Well, I think that's all for now. ::With a flurry of wings, her bondbird Tlir swoops down and sinks her talons into 'Dancer's black leather bodice. With a shout of "Mint flavored sheep-shaped candy to all" she waves her hand, and little sheep-shaped bubbles float down out of the sky, popping to reveal the sweets. Amid the torrent of sheep-bubbles, she runs off toward a sunny corner of the Hall, her blue rennaisance dress swirling around her, and plops down, opening a weathered copy of Arrows of the Queen.:: Zhai'helleva, Winddancer, who is considering changing her name to Starmist, if no one else is using it aka Xyara http://members.tripod.com/~Windblade/index.html ~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~% "Morning was that awful thing that happened every day before noon, something to avoid if possible, endure if not." --Eric's (and my ;) point of view, Bedlam's Bard Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:13:23 -0500 (EST) From: Becky Cary To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re:Elspeth bitch order/lots of other stuff Message-ID: I like the idea of Elspeth having her own Order of defenders -- and, on the subject of whether or not to include the word "bitch" in the title, I highly recommend to everyone the song "Bitch With a Bad Attitude" by Saffire (the Uppity Blues Women). (They announce at the beginning that it's based on "I Will Always Love You," as written by Dolly Parton and sung by Whitney Houston. They song then begins with "If I should stay, I'd just be in the way.... so I'm gonna stay right here, and I'm gonna make you pay!") On the great Talia debate: Elsa, I'd agree that people reacted a bit more strongly than they should have, but also bear in mind that your original post on the subject was pretty strongly worded, and pretty negative about Talia. You absolutely have the right to do that -- it's not like she's a listmember, after all. However, given the tendency of most of us here present to get personally attached to characters, I wasn't really surprised that folks responded like they did. I think the Talia/Kris thing has been thoroughly discussed, so I won't touch on it, but will instead (briefly) (*yeah, right* *shut up*) address the "not telling about the bullies" issue. This is another point on which I think initial responses were a) a bit too personally directed at Elsa and b) missing the point somewhat. It wasn't just that Talia was used to being mistreated by her peers. It was that Talia had been raised -- I won't say "grown up", because she was still a child -- in an abusive environment that taught her that the only things of importance that she could do were chores. No one cared about her or listened to what she had to say. When she wasn't insignificant, she was a nuisance, and was beaten, starved, or locked in closets to teach her not to speak up or stick out; the rest of the time she was ignored. Of course it never occurred to her that anyone would believe her story -- no one had ever believed her or trusted her. Her Gifts weren't active yet, and she didn't know about the Truth Spell. The fact that she actually told most of the situation to Jadus is, to me, far more amazing than the fact that she told no one else. So much for that. Becky -------------- In general, France is a safe travel destination, though travelers are advised that, from time to time, it is invaded by Germany. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:51:44 PST From: "Herald Katherine" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re:Elspeth bitch order Message-ID: <19990321185145.49010.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> hey guys!! well i was just thinking about names for our little elspeth order, and i think we'll have to include the word "brat" somewhere, because when you think about it, brat is elspeth's trademark all over valdemar and all throughout AOtQ and onward. so it would only make sense for us to include that word in our name. brat will probably sum it all up, don't you think? you know! followers of the brat, or arrows of the brat, or defenders of the brat. (hehe, i'm not very original, i'm just trying to give you people that ARE original some ideas.) okay, well while i'm here, i was at the bookstore yesterday (no no! keep reading, please! this isnt just some stupid story!) and i was buying my very own copy of "storm breaking" (they had it! they really had it!) and i asked the lady if she could order a book or two for me. i gave her the names.(WOFate, WOChange in particular.) and the lady was all uninterested and the people behind me that were buying books about polotics or shakespeare novels and stuff were all giving me these looks like "stop reading that crap". do you guys find that you never get respect from other readers when you say you like science fiction and fantasy? it really bothers me because i get it a lot. damn, i mean they are not trashy harlequinn (sp) romance novels or anything! (no offense to any romance readers.) these books are VERY well written and a lot of them probably have a lot more work than some "classics" i can think of! can i complain or can i complain? yes i do believe i belong at the fromt lines of our elspeth order. -+AT+-----}----- A rose for my fellow list-sibs "There is no such thing as a coincidence, only mortals who have not fought the winds of fate." -Rris, quoting his "famous cousin Warrl" Hey, that's another thing, have you guys ever noticed that the kyree always have double letters in their names?? "What's one and one and one and one and one and one and one and one and one and one?" "I don't know," said Alice "i lost count." "She can't add." Said the Red Queen -Lewis Carrol Wind to thy wings, Herald Katherine Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:02:16 -0800 From: "Amy Lea-Anne Tracey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: braid Message-ID: -- >>First, has anyone here ever wanted to see a Companion's >view in a story? >>One told through the Companion, and not the Herald? I >think that would >>be interesting. I think so,too. The Companions are always an area of interest to me. It sometimes seems like their only real attachment in life is their heralds (well,duh! They die when they do!) But they were human at one time. What exactly happens to them when they become a Companion? how much of their humanity do they use? Some Companions seem almost like their human forms, ie Sayvil/Savil It seems that they don't really have human emotions,either. I can kinda see why Companions don't fall in love(the herald bond leaves little room) but heralds can have other lifebonds. I think it would be cool if Companions could get lifebonded,too. (it's not as if they wouldn't enjoy the fringe benefits of a permanent mate!) Oh well. One more thing on Companions, some people seem to think that Grove-Born Companions are reincarnated humans,too But I think that this is incorrect. I think that they are totally separate entitys created by the gods,or something like that. One reason of this is in the Mage Winds books where Elspeth's Companion (my brain suddenly decided to not give me the name!) is referred to (by Van I think) as being not much older than Elspeth. Because she was Grove-Born, she didn't have the human experience that other Companions did. ****************************************************** : shut-up all ready! They're falling asleep!: Dawnfire looks around at list sibs who are starting to look very,very drowsy Ooops! Sorry, got on a roll! *Tarsi makes a rude snorting sound* ******************************************************* Anyway, Becky- I really like Guy G.K.'s stuff,too. Tigana was great! Someone asked where you can get a combined version of LHM trilogy, well I got it. You can get it from the Science Fiction Book Club (or you 'could' it might be out of print now) Elsa- I saw Villians of Neccesity at Chapters a while ago. I just noticed it because it was featured in my book club that month, if you 'really' want it you can order it through my book club if ya want (anyone notice that I don't always read my messages in order? *:you never do anything in order!:* BTW, I just saw the first Fushigi Yugi vid and I LOVED it!!!!!! Hmmmm, Tomahome *a dreamy look crosses Dawnfire's face as she sighs happily* How many others here have seen it? I gotta run! C-YA Listsibs! Dawnfire and sarcastic-as-always Tarsi btw,Tarsi hasn't actually told me if he's a kyree or not,but he's at least similar. No double letters,though !;o) Be prepared for tommorrow,but enjoy today (me, after my mother complained that I spend too much money on books!) "In my world,Dina, you wouldn't say 'meow' you'd say, 'yes, Miss Alice' you see?" (from Disney's Alice in Wonderland) Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:52:15 -0800 (PST) From: Miranda Warren To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: The Talia thing Message-ID: <19990322015215.21060.rocketmail-+AT+-send205.yahoomail.com> Evidently, my first message didn't get sent 2 days ago, so alas, I have to re-write it. Ok...I figured since this has been going on long enough, I should add my two cents in before it closed. ::grins!:: I just got done reading the Arrows again totalling 8 times. ::Smiles proudly:: I thought I could clear a few things up since every one seems to be at each other's throats. On pages 182-183 she describes her feelings for Dirk with Kris. She says she could seriously fall for him, but doesn't say it's a lifebond. It seems that only Kris has this suspicion, and Talia is totally unaware of this fact. Dirk doesn't even realize it's a lifebond until Talia is back after being with Ancar. ::shudder:: He was still expecting her to reject him. The entire reason he was upset that Talia and Kris slept together is because he thought immediately that Talia would be inlove with Kris since that's what had happened so many times before. Neither knew of the lifebond even though Kris did. He was just well, to focused on his uncle to even think about it. I liked Kris, but part of his attitude got to me. On the other hand, characters need to have flaws, so I remain steadfast in my like for him. I'm going to stop ranting now, and let you all get back to your other messages, only after I shamelessly promote my web page. http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/4736/index.html Please go visit and sign my guestbook! I remain, Aryenne Winterfire
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------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1911 **********************************