MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1961 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: mage storms question by J/D/H Robertson 2) Re: deities by "Wolfshadow K'Vala" 3) Little gods/mothers day/dieties by Paige 4) governments+StarWars by "Kristy Lyseng" 5) Re: governments+StarWars by David John Curry 6) Re: governments+StarWars by "Angela Stith" 7) Various braid by Liss 8) Re: governments by "Mark Severson" 9) Re: governments+StarWars by David John Curry 10) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 1960 by Katie McQuage 11) just about everything... by Angela Doyon 12) major delurk....OT:hey everyone...advice needed by Kaos95-+AT+-aol.com 13) Re: major delurk....OT:hey everyone...advice needed by Jim Gray ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:38:16 +1200 From: J/D/H Robertson To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: mage storms question Message-ID: <373654A7.FE022211-+AT+-ihug.co.nz> Heyla peoples!!!!!! I'm baaaaaaaacccccckkkkkkkk :-) (you can groan and run and hide now hehe). I haven't really got much to say except to welcome all the newbies since I last posted (a longgg time ago, so it would be kinda hard to mention you all by name, especially since you aren't newbies anymore. Can you tell I'm in a rambling on about nothing mood?). Sorry!! I don't have the storms books here to refer to, but I remember reading that they say the hundred little gods after past emperors or something? I remember that the empire isn't very religious so they just say that as a thing like people say "Oh my God" or something when they aren't actually worshipping him/it/whatever. Oh I wish my brain worked more....please don't flame me for making absolutely no sense.. i hope that i didn't just make that up and think i read it! One thing I'd like to say is..... Chris Robertson wrote: On the subject of Star WArs, my deepest sympathies go out to those who ahveto wait to see it - i feel your pain! New Zealand has a history of taking forever to get new movies and books. Fortunately someone has seen the light regarding Star Wars and we only ahve to wait till June 30. Oh I know what you mean!!!!! I might be a little behind here but are Owlflight and 'Sight out here (NZ too.. same last name too?, scary!!) yet? Because I cant find them :-(. That might be because I don't know where to look though, so don't laugh at me if they've been here for months. Sorry about that listsibs I'm just happy to see another kiwi here, yay! I know 2 others now :-). Um an obmisty that could apply to most people.... Oh I was thinking yesterday, in Velgarth do they have anything like mothers day? or fathers day? (yes it was lame, but thats what my mind was stuck thinking about yesterday...). Ok well I guess I should get back to writing assignments and stuff .. Zhai'helleva (wow haven't written that for ages, hope I spelt it right!) Heather ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 14:47:53 GMT From: "Wolfshadow K'Vala" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: deities Message-ID: <19990510144754.3174.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> Kristjan Wager wrote Hi listsibs After going through my mails, that hotmail restored to me, I found this interesting old mail, and since people have been talking about religion, and since it is nearly 1 year old, I thought I'll post it for people to see. > >2. How many deities are there in Velgrath? > >A lot. We know King Valdemar prayed to EVERY deity he'd ever heard of so >maybe all of them (their aspects) have a vested interest in the >well-being of Valdemar and Elspeth. >The deities I've noted are: > *the Lady-Trine, which is the group of Agnetha (mother), Agnoma >(Crone-figure?-her symbol is the snowflake) and Agnira (horse-tamer). >These Ladies were mentioned in BTS at least and I believe I remember >references in HoV series. > *Astera of the Stars, one of the Northern deities worshipped by >the people on Talia's intern circuit, AFlight, p73 > *Kernos of the Northern Lights, the same as Astera, AFlight, p73 > *Vkandis Sunlord, there are some splinter groups in Valdy, >mentioned in SRising, I think. The chapter where Karal and Florian are >in the stable. > *The Holderkin pray to a Goddess, but she wasn't named. I would >assume she has a male counterpart, but, again, one wasn't named. > I would also assume the Lady-Trine has a male counterpart, but >again, not named. > There are other deities named in conjunction with other >countries, but I'm sure some of them have crossed borders. Some of them >are: > *the most obvious, Kal'enel or Star-Eyed. We all know who in >particular worship her. > *the Twins, who were the pre-Mage War deities worshipped by Need >and the Sisterhood of the Sword and Spell. They were named Kerenal >(Healer), Dina (Crafter), Karanel (Fighter), Dara (Hunter). > *Anathei of the Purifying Flame, who was the god the priest who >took care of Thalkarsh in Ob prayed to. Ob, p235-43 > *Kindas Sun-Kindler (Lord Sun) is mentioned in AFall, p156 Could >Kindas be an unplanned corruption of Vkandis? > *Tembor Earth-Shaker, AFall, p156 > *there was a throwaway line in AFall, p162, about there being >Moon-oriented orders. > *Windborn Lady (Windborn Soulshaper, Windlady) was the goddess >Keth prayed to. > *the Cold God, mentioned after Elspeth's assassination attempt in >WFate. > *Shayana, in Obr, p25 and _Oathblood_, p300. This was the name >of the god(dess) Tresti was a Healing Priest of. Also, the new Healer >Tarma wants to marry Ikan off to in Oathblood. > *there is another one of the throwaways in Obr, p93. All it >mentions is "There's this sect of Spider-Priestesses down south: they >sort of dress like Tarma--deal is, they _didn't_ start out life as >girls." > *the Twin Suns, Ob, p238. I'm not really sure if this is a >religion or a mage school. Tarma calls it the "Twin Suns school" You neglected to add the One God of the Three rivers people. Remember the cook from AotQ? Spoiler*********************************************************** * * * * * * Also the 40 gods of the empire were the past emperors. It states this somewhere in the middle of the first book of the mage storms trilogy during a confrence. The Candlemark thing I mentioned earler is also from this book. Having riden for about 20 candle marks that day.(sorry, Im at school, no book for page numbers) * * * * * * * *End Spoiler Anyway off to my Psychology Final Wind to your wings, Wolfshadow K'Vala _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:54:48 -0400 From: Paige To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Little gods/mothers day/dieties Message-ID: <3736F337.DFF4DE5A-+AT+-sympatico.ca> J/D/H Robertson wrote: > I don't have the storms books here to refer to, but I remember reading that they > say the hundred little gods after past emperors or something? I remember that > the empire isn't very religious so they just say that as a thing like people say > "Oh my God" or something when they aren't actually worshipping > him/it/whatever. Oh I wish my brain worked more....please don't flame me for > making absolutely no sense.. i hope that i didn't just make that up and think i > read it! I don't have the books handy so this is all my recollection of the books. I think it's in either Rising or Breaking that Tremane says that the 100 little gods (it's changed from Warning - you don't see 40 after the first book for some reason) are the past emperors and their consorts. Now if that's true though, how could his aunt have been a worshipper of the "little god of lust"? It's that bit where he uses the Wolf Seal to get the supplies from the depot. Anyone? > Um an obmisty that could apply to most people.... > Oh I was thinking yesterday, in Velgarth do they have anything like mothers day? > or fathers day? (yes it was lame, but thats what my mind was stuck thinking > about yesterday...). > Well, IIRC, in Arrows Flight, Kris tells Talia that ono Midsummer's day Mothers or those who are going to be mothers are given baskets of fruit and other gifts (in addition to the flowers that everyone else gets) so I guess that could kind of count as mothers day, couldn't it? Umm...OB Misty... From another post Kristjan reprinted a list of deities. Someone (I forget who) asked if there were maybe only two. Seeing this list makes me wonder if that's true. Did anyone else notice that the names are awfully similar? There's Astera of the Stars and we know from the back of Oath Breakers that the Star-eyed is sometimes called En'eleve Astera (sp?). Then there's Kindas Sun-Kindler and Vkandis. Also, some of those twins names Kerenal and Karanel seem pretty close to Kalenel. What does everyone else think? -- Paige GO LEAFS!!! proud to be Outlandish When you are finally holding all the cards, why does everyone else decide to play chess. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 08:59:41 PDT From: "Kristy Lyseng" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: governments+StarWars Message-ID: <19990510155942.75265.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> Heyla, all! Here's a question that I've been pondering just recently. For all of you who've read fantasy books, has anyone else ever wondered why the government's a monarchy? Or else if there's an "evil" country, they're either in a monarchy or they believe in communism? Just a thought. And this is along the lines of government, but I'm remembering from the e-mails over the weekend, that someone used the terms "good government" and "evil/bad government". I do not agree with this. Governments are neither good nor evil. If you want to blame a government doing bad things, like Hitler for example, blame the PEOPLE running the government. Power corrupts the people running a country and it can screw around with their thinking. By the way, if anyone says that communism is bad in defense of this, I would have to say you're wrong. Communism could be a success except for the fact that power will corrupt the person running the country. (Here's something interesint to think about. Look at democracy and see how many similarities there are between the two. The only difference about democracy and communism, is that democracy dosen't run the country with a bludgeon.) Okay, I think I've prattled on enough about that. Now onto a lighter subject. I sympathise you people who have to wait so long for Starwars: the Phantom Menance! Have strength and hope hard that time flies fast for all of you. Bye for now! Love, Light and Laughter, Kristy ---------------------- "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe."--Albert Einstein ---------------------- "Stars are born and destroyed every year, but they do not serve entropy. What better purpose is there than to serve as guiding lights for wandering souls far from home?"--myself ---------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:00:53 +0100 From: David John Curry To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: governments+StarWars Message-ID: <373710C5.351C63E5-+AT+-exeter.ac.uk> Kristy Lyseng wrote: > ... has anyone else ever wondered why the government's a monarchy? Lots of possibilities:- 1. Because it's an archaic form of government which most substantial nations have at one time used and so it's ingrained into their "folk culture". 2. Because Americans think it's quaint and that's where the market is. 3. Because Americans and they're a lot of authors (remember that the Hobbit and LOTR were written by a Englishman and the hobbits (who were the epitome of everything middle english) seemed to not have a monarchy, just a cross between indifferent anarchy and a parish council, which is as close to democracy as we can be bothered to get). > ... if there's an "evil" country, they're either in a monarchy or they > believe in communism? Hmmm. See above and leave out 1. > Governments are neither good nor evil. No. Just oblivious to everything except lining their own members' pocket until the next election (or revolution) comes up and then they're busy shifting blame onto each other. At least with a Monarchy they know they don't have to suffer elections (and politicians) and Daddy (or Mummy) squirreled away all the money anyway. > Communism could be a success except for the fact that power will corrupt ... Nah. It assumes that everyone will work hard for the good of all, and that's just not human nature. There are people who will work and work and then have a heart attack ... and there are people who will let them. The only communistic system that seems to have a chance is the good old United Federation of Planets, where everyone has the essentials and no-one has to work at all, except for "fun" and "personal fulfilment". David. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 12:27:17 PDT From: "Angela Stith" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: governments+StarWars Message-ID: <19990510192717.91997.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> >Kristy Lyseng wrote: > > Communism could be a success except for the fact that power will corrupt >... then david said: >Nah. It assumes that everyone will work hard for the good of all, and >that's just not human nature. the same way that anarchy assumes people are smart enough to follow laws when they don't have to. . . (i say all the smart people follow me and start a new country. . . yeah. . .) but, really. . . i think maybe the countries in fantasy books are monarchies because they're supposed to be sort of legendary and "different" from what we see everyday. . . i mean, would YOU want to read a book that had *urg* POLITICIANS in it? *grin* but it's a little easier to get past it when you've got kings and queens and such. speaking of politics. . . is anyone else thouroughly ashamed to be an american right now? -autumndusk / topia- "No longer must i sweep for you, for I am not your broom!" -TMBG (possibly the most disturbing video clip i have ever seen) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: 10 May 99 13:15:24 PDT From: Liss To: Mercedes Lackey Mailing List Subject: Various braid Message-ID: <19990510201524.6013.qmail-+AT+-nwcst059.netaddress.usa.net> Heyla All! Yes, 'tis I. I'm back to torture all of you *laughs maniacly*! Paige wrote: 'Twas I...unfortunately. This has really started something, hasn't it? I didn't actually mean that all of the Gods were two (though it's an interesting thought). Like you, I thought the names were _awful_ similar and she seemed to be tying them together a lot. *sigh* Now look what I started... Absalon - Thank you for reprinting that Deities list. Paige wrote: Tale'sedrin (sp) are green eyed and blond, thanks to Kethry. One of the Winds books or BTS says that the blondness is from Jadrek, while the eyes are from Kethry. Speaking of Winds and BTS, I've just finished re-reading them and will have some lovely possible spoilers and questions for y'all tomorrow! Aren't you thrilled *Liss rubs her hands together in anticipation and gryph grins* Zhai'helleva! Liss .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. half_asleep-+AT+-usa.net http://members.tripod.com/half_asleep http://www.ONElist.com/subscribe/twistedjokes .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:34:54 -0700 From: "Mark Severson" To: Subject: Re: governments Message-ID: <000701be9b24$90c96c00$b66cb4cd-+AT+-janltcea> ----- Original Message ----- From: David John Curry To: Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 11:04 AM Subject: Re: governments+StarWars > Kristy Lyseng wrote: > > > ... has anyone else ever wondered why the government's a monarchy? > > Lots of possibilities:- > > 1. Because it's an archaic form of government which most substantial > nations have at one time used and so it's ingrained into their > "folk culture". > > 2. Because Americans think it's quaint and that's where the market > is. > > 3. Because Americans and they're a lot of authors (remember that the > Hobbit and LOTR were written by a Englishman and the hobbits (who > were the epitome of everything middle english) seemed to not have > a monarchy, just a cross between indifferent anarchy and a parish > council, which is as close to democracy as we can be bothered to > get). > Just for the record some of us feel we've be stuck with a kind of quasi-monarchy - at least it seems like some of the politicians feel they are better then the rabble. Case in point - in one of the New English states (sorry, can't remember which) a bill was introduced to restore the death penalty. The death penalty would apply when ONE (1) member of the state legislature was killed or TWO (2) citizens were killed. When I heard that I was absolutely disgusted!) It is all but impossible for a "regular" citizen to be elected to a major office in this country. We are stuck with voting for whom ever the "princes" decide to put forward as the new "king". Of course considering who the rabble have voted for in the last to elections I don't have a lot of faith in them either. I'd LOVE to see something along the lines of companions to help out selecting the next president, I bet Clinton would have reached terminal velocity when a Companion gave him the "boot" ala double back kick. > > > Communism could be a success except for the fact that power will corrupt ... > > Nah. It assumes that everyone will work hard for the good of all, and > that's just not human nature. Do you know what the first government the Pilgrims tried? Communism! After a year in which it was a TOTAL failure they dropped it like a hot rock and let everyone "do their own thing" crop wise, home, etc. (Not religion or course). I believe I've heard that a couple different times on Paul Harvey. > > David. > Mark the peasant tax zombie I know it's not that Misty related but what's a curmugeon to do? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:49:16 +0100 From: David John Curry To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: governments+StarWars Message-ID: <3737545C.D329CC08-+AT+-exeter.ac.uk> Angela Stith wrote: > The same way that anarchy assumes people are smart enough to follow laws > when they don't have to. . . (i say all the smart people follow me and start > a new country. . . yeah. . .) Funny, I thought anarachies opposed laws in general and everyone followed their "conscience". > ... they're supposed to be sort of legendary and "different" from what > we see everyday ... Precisely. Tolkien wrote about something different from the monarchy that he lived in. > Is anyone else thouroughly ashamed to be an American right now? No, but I'm not particularly impressed by what *all* of the politicians are doing, whether American, British (where I live) or Jersey (my home). But that's democracy for you, the tyranny of the majority. David. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:12:19 +0000 From: Katie McQuage To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 1960 Message-ID: <37371371.4FC641EC-+AT+-geocities.com> The Hundred Little Gods don't included just everybody's ancestors. It's the Emperoprs and their consorts with a few other people thrown in for variety. Think Roman Empire kind of thing. Aurinalian would have something to do with east, I think, since variations with that prefiz have to do with the dawn. Although that has more to do with light than the direction it comes from. Religion: The Holderkin god was too named! Throughout the Arrows books there is metnion of the stirck authoritarian god and the submissive goddess. Definitley in the beginning of the first on, and in the second when she is explaining the Holderkin to Kris. Or maybe I mean when Elcarth is talking to the Queen about them? There is definite mention of him, and less metion of the Goddess, actually. Just took the English AP test, and I'm exhausted, so I'm off to go find something edible. Wind to thy wings, Rhiannon Shadowsong ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:31:24 -0400 From: Angela Doyon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: just about everything... Message-ID: <19990510.193130.13958.1.Songrunner-+AT+-juno.com> Heyla all! Don't mind me as I braid in a whole bunch of "stuff", most of which is probably rather outdated (sorry - haven't checked my email in almost a week - a very dangerous thing to do lately). As for natural disasters in Valdemar, I recall a few being referred to. As for earthquakes, there was the one in Lineas-Bairnes. If I recall correctly, the Heartstone was there to prevent it from happening and eventually heal the land from the stress that was causing it. And since Van seemed to know what the earthquake was and how they were usually caused, that more or less seems to argue that they at least occurred with some sort of frequency (that word being very loosely defined, of course!) in order for anyone to know what they were. Elspeth also remembers Kero referring to a grass-fire on the plains, if you think of that as a natural disaster. One other one I remember is when Herald Destria (I think) broke both of her legs trying to save some children from a flash flood or something, in the Arrows trilogy somewhere. There were probably a few others mentioned too, although I can't remember any right now. Of course, with all the "natural disasters" induced by magic-related incidents, who needs *real* natural disasters! As for the gods/goddesses question, here's a completely random and pointless thought. Couldn't the whole thing occur because of a multi-split personality? Hey - it could happen! Of course, the thought of all the deities of the world being rather insane doesn't sit too well.... I can just see it now. One personality arguing with another over how "their" chosen people should be governed over by them, eventually leading to the "rules" of no warring deities.... Anyway. (sorry - just couldn't stop one of my many insane and rambling thoughts brought on while reading the list from popping out of my head onto the screen) L.J. Thompson wrote: (I'm not strongly in either camp, I just like to argue. :) ) . . . . . . . . . . .finally, who says that Thalhkarsh was telling the truth? It wasn't exactly like he made a point of always telling Tarma and Kethry the truth or anything. If he thought that it would help him to tell them that, I bet he would have. How were they going to prove him wrong anyway? Or he may not have known either. Okay, you asked for a (friendly!) argument (I love those too!), so here goes. As for that particular theory, I think that Kethry herself was the one who brought up the idea of Thalkharsh becoming a god, although the demon later more or less confirmed it. And the fact that she referred to several god-slaying weapons (I think that was what she said) seems to imply that they really were telling the truth, and that someone/thing *could* become a god if they had enough power/worshippers/etc. As for all the references to Skif and his life as a thief before being Chosen, I feel that I have to speak up on the behalf of thieves. Almost every thief character in most fantasy books that I have read have been my favorite characters, or nearly so. Talen and Silk in David Eddings books, George in Tamora Pierce's, etc. If I remember right, thieves have their own code of honor and are generally more trustworthy than other people once they have given their words. And thieves are not necessarily *bad* people - it is just another profession. Granted, there are certainly many truly evil/bad ones, but at the same time there are lots of perfectly likable ones. Skif is undeniable one of the likable ones, as evidenced by his being Chosen. And remember, there are have been other thieves Chosen too, like Donni (or was it Mardic? I can't remember which one). Also, Stef was a sort of a thief too, and he was taken into Bardic. And most of those were forced into their professions due to circumstances of birth, etc. Somebody (?) said: < hey listsibs! ok....i know this is really OT and all but you guys seem to have some knowledge in the area so...anyways.....ok...my best friend told me a few months ago that's she's bi...that's fine by me, i have no problem with it....she later told me she has a crush on me....i told her thank you but i'm not that way....ever since then she's kinda been seeming like she hopes i'm gonna change my mind....when she told me she was bi i did a lot of thinking about whether i was or not....i'm not....but i don't know how to tell her without sounding...i dunno....mean or redundant or whatever....anyways...i'm not looking for a moral debate or anything...just some advice on what to do....thanx guys.....it's really appreciated =) wind to thy wings, tetyhan ---you may all now move on to the next much less serious letter.....=) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:11:05 -0400 From: Jim Gray To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: major delurk....OT:hey everyone...advice needed Message-ID: <373783A9.479B0795-+AT+-altoona.com> Kaos95-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > > hey listsibs! > ok....i know this is really OT and all but you guys seem to have some > knowledge in the area so...anyways.....ok...my best friend told me a few > months ago that's she's bi...that's fine by me, i have no problem with > it....she later told me she has a crush on me....i told her thank you but i'm > not that way....ever since then she's kinda been seeming like she hopes i'm > gonna change my mind....when she told me she was bi i did a lot of thinking > about whether i was or not....i'm not....but i don't know how to tell her > without sounding...i dunno....mean or redundant or whatever....anyways...i'm > not looking for a moral debate or anything...just some advice on what to > do....thanx guys.....it's really appreciated =) > > wind to thy wings, > tetyhan > > ---you may all now move on to the next much less serious letter.....=) I get this same kind of thing sometimes when woman friends don't quite want to believe I'm gay. I usually handle it by making it clear in a friendly, non-angry, non-disgusted way that I _am_ gay and I don't think I'm capable of having that kind of relationship with a woman. Then I treat them just like I did before the revelation or incident or whatever happened. And eventually, they get the message that I'm not going to get involved with them that way. I've never had anyone get angry at me about it. Since you've already made the announcement that you're not interested in that sort of thing, there's really no need to be explicit in your rejection of anything more than friendship. Just don't respond to any advances she may make, any longing glances, any suggestive conversation. Treat it as if you aren't aware that there's subtext to the whole thing, treating hugs that you think may be more serious than friendly as just friendly, ignoring glances (not obviously, but subtly), and playing dumb if she starts "hinting" about anything. In other words, treat the situation the same way you would treat it if it were a male friend that you weren't interested in personally but who had a crush on you. Crushes will go away with time, and if she truly is your best friend, she'll eventually understand. -- Jim Gray "People who didn't need people needed people around to know that they were the kind of people who didn't need people." -Terry Pratchett, "Maskerade" ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1961 **********************************