MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1968 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: governments reply by "Mark Severson" 2) Re: stuff by "Alexia/Sabrina" 3) Re: Braid: reminder/Bother/Internat'l probs by Becky Cary 4) Stuff by "Kristjan Wager" 5) Re: My Favorite Characters by Khisanth Tsaroth 6) Re: Firesong by Paige 7) Re: Stuff by grouch1 8) Re: Firesong by EarthSongW-+AT+-aol.com 9) Re: Firesong by David John Curry 10) Re: Reincarnation by David John Curry 11) Re: Di Tregarde books by Alinea 12) Re: Di Tregarde books by Dainestar-+AT+-aol.com 13) The Black Swan by Skandranon-+AT+-aol.com 14) Re: My Favorite Characters by "maggie walsh" 15) negative focus vs "Polyanna" by "ambermoon starshadow" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 02:58:21 -0700 From: "Mark Severson" To: Subject: Re: governments reply Message-ID: <002301be9f82$a1f1dd20$ca6cb4cd-+AT+-markttz.eonet.com> I will be replying to Chris's latest post off list so those of you who are offended by political discussions may stand easy. Mark Severson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 10:03:57 +0100 From: "Alexia/Sabrina" To: Subject: Re: stuff Message-ID: <000201be9f90$8023f620$28ca28c3-+AT+-oemcomputer> >Mardic and Donni weren't supposed to be interesting. It would have distracted you fron Van and Lendel, and it would also have defeated their purpose. They were the hhappy stable lifebonded couple with no problems. No problems, no interest. Well, I find characters interesting, not based on whether they are happy or sad, with multiple problems or rather problem free lives, in stories, but on whether I feel I got to know the character and felt that they were real individuals... I just found Donni and Mardic incredible one dimensional> Death penalty- I'm extremely liberal minded about criminology views BUT I think the death penalty should be used in the case of child sex offenders. I thought Talia's punnishment was very good... she rendered him harmless and if he could have been harmful again... well, they would have hanged him. I must say that I didn't like Talia much either... I just didn't _feel_ for her. I did like Van and Lendel... And Firesong... I like most of Misty's characters because they feel like 'real' people... I just LOVED Kero- by the sword is my favourite misty book, Magic's Pawn after that... Anyway... happy sheep to everyone and have a lovely weekend:) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 11:11:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Becky Cary To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid: reminder/Bother/Internat'l probs Message-ID: On Sun, 16 May 1999, Shadowblade wrote: > Please refrain from: > - one-liners, > - quoting more than is needed, and > - sending MIME mails, Vanyel doesn't like them. Just as a point of clarification, Vanyel is the name of the server. Shadowblade is not neurotically worried about offending a fictional character. And let me just back up the point on unnecessary quoting with a heartfelt "Amen, sister!" If you are replying to a previous message, do not simply include the entire message at the bottom of yours. Delete out all but the pertinent bits. We will all love you for it. On the Di Tregarde subject, I'm going to take up a position firmly in the middle. I enjoy the Di books, but primarily as light entertainment and source of the occasional good line. ("By the Seven Rings of Zsa Zsa Gabor and the Rock of Elizabeth Taylor I command you!") I understand why they don't sell. Tanya Huff and LKH were brought up as examples, I believe by Cennydd, of the leading lights of the sub-genre, and quite rightly so. Given a choice between Anita Blake and Di Tregarde, I'd have to go with Anita. > A-hem, sorry if I butt in at this point, but would you please > take your international finger-pointing somewhere else. Perhaps I interpreted Cennydd's original response differently, but I saw little "finger-pointing" on his part, merely pointing out that there are both good and bad things about every place, and that the US does have its points and isn't necessarily the Great Satan. > Cennydd, thanks for drowning us in sweetness and light, but maybe, > just maybe, if the Harris and Klebold _had_ been wrapped in saccharine > bubble-wrap, they would have gone out and killed sooner. Sometimes, I find > it so much easier to get angry and explode. If, someone had been nice while > I was in a mood, I'd only get more irritated. Heck, shrinks would have > driven me to the breaking point. So maybe, just maybe, some people don't > like sweetness and light all the time. Maybe, just maybe, it is not so much > the mentality at fault, but the country. Please see the other side of the > situation, there are limits to patriotism. Okay, I'm dragging out the soapbox now. I know Cennydd's quite able to defend himself, probably better than I can, so I think I'll stick to defending that point of view. This irritates me. Cennydd's post on optimism was not about wallowing in "sweetness and light," it was about not being so wrapped up in what's awful in the world that you lose the ability to appreciate the good things in life. About not drowning so deep in cynicism and bitterness that there is nothing left. Being already bitter, cynical, and despairing and then being "wrapped in saccharine bubble-wrap" would of course infuriate anyone. But optimism isn't something externally imposed, and it has nothing to do with the artificial and superficial cheer of the perpetually perky. That's what I call the "silver lining" mentality, people who are so determined not to see the bad that they find something positive, no matter how ludicrous, in anything. Optimism acknowledges that there are things gravely wrong with the world, but says that they are not all there is. I call this the "azalea" mentality, for no reason but that when I'm in the beginnings of a funk, walking through the azalea gardens at school helps pull me out of it. Yes, what happened in Littleton was awful. Yes, what's happening in Kosovo is awful. But I'm here, with people who love me, and the azaleas are blooming. So I do what I can to help, and give myself permission not to be consumed by it. If those two kids in Littleton had been raised in a culture that fosters that mentality rather than cynicism and despair, things might have been different. I also think the youth-centric culture of the US is a part of the equation. So much is focused on how great being young is. TV shows and movies are full of beautiful (supposed) high school students leading fabulous lives. Teenagers are constantly hearing the message, "These are the best days of your life." If I had honestly believed that as a teenager, I might well have picked up a gun too. Being a teenager is no fun. You have the body of an adult, but you don't know how to handle it yet. Your endocrine system has you awash in surges of hormones that can be overwhelming, and that no one teaches you how to deal with. If people do treat you like an adult, it's usually only in that you're expected to be much more responsible, but not that you get the freedoms of adulthood. And the only leadership system many teenagers know is that of fear. The popular kids run the school through fear, and no one ever stops them or tells them it's not appropriate. In fact, they're usually rewarded for it. No one ever tells the rest of the kids that it won't be like this forever. Given all that, given that the way to power in school is through fear, how do you get people to fear you and therefore leave you alone if you're not strong enough or wealthy enough? With a gun. And if you really think that these are the best days of your life, that it never gets any better than this...? To all my teenage list-sibs (and I was there until only a few years ago): It does get better. It doesn't have to be bleak. In a few years, the popular kids will mostly have boring lives, because no one really likes most of them, since they never learn how to be nice to people. (And yes, I know there are exceptions, but I'm in "blanket generalization" mode this morning.) And thanks for the giggle-bubbles, Shadowblade! Becky Goddess of Oversleeping and Snide Comments She Who Cares Not One Whit for Xenopus Embryos -------------- In general, France is a safe travel destination, though travelers are advised that, from time to time, it is invaded by Germany. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 10:03:41 PDT From: "Kristjan Wager" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Stuff Message-ID: <19990516170342.56830.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> Hi listsibs While I don't like to sound lecturing, there are apparently a few newbies on the list, and not all of them knows how we like the posts to be. I sugest going to http://www.herald.co.uk/local_info/rules_thumb.html to see what the rules for posting are. The obmisty: I just found a interview with Misty on the net. It's at http://www.mzbfm.com/misty.html. It's interesting, even if you don't get any new informations really. I still working on the index page at www.angelfire.com/wa/Absalon. Zen hugging sheep to everyone Absalon Defender of Lissa ( member of OoUH ) Member of OLW ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 11:35:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Khisanth Tsaroth To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: My Favorite Characters Message-ID: <19990516183551.13118.rocketmail-+AT+-web705.mail.yahoo.com> Heyla! I decided to emerge from lurkdom to say that my favorite character is Van. I love Van. (Of course, I have a bias towards guys tha can sing, and baritones in particular) I can say without a doubt that he's my favorite character ever. I loved him from the very first page, despite the brattiness, vanity, and self-absorption he had as a teenager. I think that all of Van's flaws are what made him so lovable. You could sort of stand back and laugh at him for being so silly. This might just be me, but the fact that his life was so tragic also drew me to him. I kept thinking, "poor baby," through the story, even when I wanted to slap him for being a brat. And he was a brat. As he got older, though, he became a really wonderful person. I know someone said that he whined, but I don't really blame him for that. He had a rough deal. He didn't have many close friends to begin with, and then they all got killed. Also, the Herald-Mages were slowly getting killed off, until he was the last one, and then he had to do all their jobs. And throug all of this he had to put up with hero-worship from everybody up from the pages to the Heralds, and his parents still didn't accept him. Since he was the only Herald-Mage he couldn't jsut leave, either. He had to do nearly impossible things throughout his life as a Herald, and even after his death, he made sure that Valdemar was protected, although it required that he couldn't rest, although he'd certainly earned it. I hope that made sense, and wasn't just babble. I haven't really explained why I liked him before, but I really tried hard to make you guys understand why I do. -Khisanth- === "There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened." -Douglas Adams _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 15:13:41 -0400 From: Paige To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Firesong Message-ID: <373F18E5.BD095BFA-+AT+-sympatico.ca> David John Curry wrote: > > Paige wrote: > > > Least favourite character ... I really don't like Firesong. > > Yes, he is irritating, isn't he? Terribly ;-) > > I find him to be childish, conceited and spoilt. > > A bit like a domestic cat. > > Sorry, that requires explanation. Most of the behavioural patterns of > domestic cats (treading you when they sit on you, mijowing, etc.) are > explainable only if you recognise that they never grow out of kitten- > hood and it's only habit. I wouldn't say that. Neither of my cats are "typical" house cats. They really don't do any of the annoying things that cats of friends do... I guess I'm lucky. > > ... his actions are not his fault, that he was raised to adoration ... > > And that's no excuse ... only an explanation. I wasn't really excusing him, I was giving an explanation. I do know the difference you know. Still, there is the fact that a persons behaviour is shaped by their environment and the way they were raised. A person raised to expect complete and total adoration from everyone around him is going to behave (probably) exactly as Firesong did when they are suddenly denied what they have come to consider their due. That's all I was saying. > *** DIATRIBE SPOILER *** > > I hate it when people think they should be excused antisocial behaviour > just because there's some psychological mumbo jumbo. > > A murderer is a murderer, no matter the excuse ... if they're going to > do it again if you let them, don't. > > This, of course, doesn't apply to all murders. If a wife kills her > husband *just* 'cos he was beating her, then *just* make sure she > doesn't get in the same dilemma. > > I think it might work (or maybe not, but then keeping an eye on her is > no worse than slapping her in gaol) > > *** END OF DIATRIBE *** Sorry, but what's this got to do with Firesong. He's just a brat, he's not a murderer. -- Paige GO LEAFS!!! proud to be Outlandish When you are finally holding all the cards, why does everyone else decide to play chess. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 15:40:55 +0000 From: grouch1 To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Stuff Message-ID: <373EE706.F4FF84EB-+AT+-prodigy.net> * the grouchy Windrider chuckles and snickers hysterically to himself as he crouches behind an ancient and enormous partially molded oak tree. He holds a VERY large bucket of rainbow colored sheep shaped butterflies ( the non-flying type) in his hands. For what may be the purpose of this most foul of deeds? Fun I say. hee! hee! "Oh yoooo hooooooooooo! Herald Songrunner! Where's thee be?" (or is it ye? art thou mees thinketh or else where's she? Okay. I'm confused now. Well actually I'm always confused but that's another legend.) Um where was I now? Oh yes. I'm a slight bit confused as to the concept or process of Valdemaran or Valdemarian reincarnation. I believe a Herald can eventually be reincarnated as a Companion. But can also a Herald have the opportunity to be reincarnated as another Herald? If this is true, wouldn't the previous Herald probably bring over their "gifts" to the newly reincarnated Herald thereby creating some sort of mergence of their gifts and powers? And if this is so, does this mean that Vanyel could have actually been a figure of reincarnated reincarnations over a numerous time span thereby granting him with all of his "gifts"? Could he have possibly reached the ultimate state of total reincarnation or something? And if this is so, can others also eventually do the same do you think? I was also wondering what would a Companion be reincarnated as if it had to be something else? A hertasi or gryphon perhaps? Well that's my two shillings for now. Crystal sheep of infinite yummies and wisdom to all list-sibbies!! "Great Spirit, Grant that I may not criticize my neighbor until I have walked a mile in her or his moccasins." - Indian Prayer X mark of the grouchy Windrider ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 16:10:23 EDT From: EarthSongW-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Firesong Message-ID: <76566ae0.2470802f-+AT+-aol.com> Heyla!! I like FireSong when we first meet him, But i think the Character development was very poor. His character degraded further as the books went on... :( ~~Justyn~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:30:02 +0100 From: David John Curry To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Firesong Message-ID: <373F38DA.E016EAA0-+AT+-exeter.ac.uk> Paige wrote: > I wouldn't say that. Neither of my cats are "typical" house cats. They > really don't do any of the annoying things that cats of friends do... I > guess I'm lucky. Oh, mine do . They loaf around all day in my parent's room and then take a sudden dislike to each other's presence and chase each other round the house. In the evening, they finally decide to go out and it's a dickens of a job to get them back in at nightfall. > I do know the difference you know. Many apologies. > He's just a brat, he's not a murderer. I know, but some places blame society for maladjusted characters and fail to take corrective steps and so "brats" *become* more antisocial because there's no conseqence to their actions. Firesong's problems are exasperated by his clan's attitude that "special people" need "special treatment" and this treatment seems to involve acceptance of unacceptable behaviour just in case it destroys his genius. David. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:39:51 +0100 From: David John Curry To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Reincarnation Message-ID: <373F3B27.D70DC0E1-+AT+-exeter.ac.uk> Grouch1 wrote: > ... wouldn't the previous Herald probably bring over their "gifts" to > the newly reincarnated Herald ... mergence of their gifts and powers? Normally, reincarnation is of a soul, not a mind or body. So powers wouldn't "stack", they would depend on chance (or genetics, if ML has decided that's how Gifts work). Stefan only feels an attraction to Vanyel, and doesn't have many (if any) of Tylendel's gifts, and only has the vaguest of impressions about any past life. It's also only dimly realised that Stef is a reincarnation, so these things can't be that easily detectable. > Could he have possibly reached the ultimate state of total reincarnation > or something? I don't think that even Stef would have claimed that Vanyel was in any kind of "ultimate state" and Vanyel was given choices at his death, so I think that might scotch that idea. > I was also wondering what would a Companion be reincarnated as if it > had to be something else? A hertasi or gryphon perhaps? Maybe, if it were neccessary, but the Companions seem to retain some of their personality or memories from previous lives (I think the comment about Gwena as one of the Grove-born bears that out) and so rebirth into a form that loses that might seem too much just for the ability to fly or cook. Nice thought, though. David. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 17:24:52 -0400 From: Alinea To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Di Tregarde books Message-ID: <373F37A4.535914A9-+AT+-geocities.com> I feel slightly obligated to defend Misty's other books...I love the SERRAted Edge series, Bedlam's Bard, and I just bought one of her Diana Tregarde books today, and so far I like it... I'm also gonna defend Firesong, too...him being my absolutely favorite character...He's not superhuman, either. Being superior to most people is not easy to deal with, mainly because it's so incredibly hard to find someone who understands how you feel. Which is why I like him....I have a hard time finding people that I can really talk to..... Thanx to all who filled me in on what's going on...and just a question...how long *does* it take for the teenage years to get better? Zhai'helleva, folks! Alinea Songwind -+AT+-}--`-}-`-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 19:11:56 EDT From: Dainestar-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Di Tregarde books Message-ID: <2f9226bf.2470aabc-+AT+-aol.com> Ok.....delurking time! Hallelujah!!!! Anyway, favorite character: Hmmmm...must I choose? I guess it would be a choice between Talia (because I am so like her, excluding a bit of the self-sacrificing aspects, it's scary), Tarma and Kethry (because they are damn cool), and Vanyel (because I can relate to him). I know everyone says Talia is too submissive and too selfless, etc. but I dunno- I like her. I see some of her in myself. As for Vanyel's being whiny, I think that- while he IS whiny- he deserves to be so. Like Firesong having earned the right to be vain. Van's been through so much hell that he's earned a little whine (yes, and Savil backs me up on this). Least favorite: I dislike Firesong. He just annoys me. on Di Tregarde: I agree with whoever said it's hard to remember sometimes that Misty wrote them and the Velgarth books, but I still like Di. So maybe she is a hundred times better at real fantasy and not occult stuff- I still like the books, and I think they're interesting. I have nothing very deep or relevant to say today. Oh well. Daine ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:16:52 EDT From: Skandranon-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: The Black Swan Message-ID: Hello! I've never been much of a contributor, and I've been on a hiatus from the list after a relocation from NY to central VA! I got here in time to visit the VA Renaissance Faire, and they have a Ren. Faire VISA card. (Yes, I'm applying for it.) I noticed a few months ago that Werehunter was out, and I was visiting the Borders in Fredricksburg while waiting for the antique stores to open (it's really hard to sleep late while camping), and I noticed yet another new ML book. This one is called The Black Swan. Please excuse me if this has already been mentioned, but as I said, I've been off for about a month and a half. I haven't read it, and I didn't give in a buy it, even. (I'm trying to get through Melanie Rawn's Exiles, and I still have a few Eddings to get through.) I am a renewed member of the SFBC (who can turn down 6 free books?), and I will need to buy the four of my obligation. Well, that was all I wanted to say! Barb ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 19:28:15 PDT From: "maggie walsh" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: My Favorite Characters Message-ID: <19990517022816.62655.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> Hi everyone. I just started reading ML's books. So far i've read Winds of Fate and that's it but I plan to read all the others in time. I've just got to say though that I loved that book and all the characters in it. I find that I can relate to each character in some way or another and I thought that ML is just such a great author. In the book that i read I have to say that my favorite character was Skif. I definately liked him the best. I also like Kero, Elpseth and all the other characters but I didn't really like Dawnfire that much. Is she still in the next books even though she's no longer human? Well I have to go now so I geuss that's it. >From: Darkmoon >Reply-To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk >To: canadarox47-+AT+-hotmail.com >Subject: My Favorite Characters >Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 22:45:04 +0100 (BST) > >Okay. My favorite characters in ML books are Vanyel and Elspeth, because I >relate to them both immensely. Like Elspeth, I am prideful and >stubborn, and like Vanyel... well, there's more than I can count. >I don't like Firesong, and I especially hated Dawnfire, at least in her >human form. >Okay. Now, something's been bothering me. I get this kind of vague >feeling that Skif is familiar from more of Misty's books... does anyone >think he's the reincarnation of another Misty character? (I can't find >which one.) > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:26:32 PDT From: "ambermoon starshadow" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: negative focus vs "Polyanna" Message-ID: <19990517042632.96631.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> Heyla, Thank you Reanna! And just because I happen to have my script, I shall now cheerfully toture all the rest of the list-sibs with the full quote: "My friend, I have lived almost fifty years, and I have seen life as it is. Pain, misery, hunger. . .cruelty beyond belief. I have heard the singing from taverns and and the moans from bundles of filth on the streets. I have been a soldier and seen my comrades fall in battle. . .or die more slowly under the lash in Africa. I have held them in my arms at the final moment. These were men who saw life as it is, yet they died despairing. No glory, no gallant last words. . .only their eyes filled with confusion, whimpering the question: 'Why?' I do not think they asked why they were dying, but why they had lived. When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Too much sanity may be madness. To seek treasure where there is only trash. Perhaps to be practical is madness. And maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it ought to be." and btw, the character in the play is Cervantes, not Quixote. This fits in nicely to the whole Polyanna/sweentess-and-light issue; there are several points of view here. All seem agreed that the world is a rotten place. That said, each person deals with it differently. Some, as Cynnedd suggested, can see the good as well as the bad and not focus on the negative. Those kids in Colorado took out their anger at the world on everyone around them as well as themselves. Don Quixote saw the world and couldn't stand it, so he went mad and insisted on seeing everything as positive, refusing to see the negative in front of him. Whether or not he succeeded in making the world a better place is a hotly debated issue that I will refrain from taking a stand on. Cervantes saw the world, but did not accept it; he tried to change the world within its parameters, and in the play he succeeded. Outside? I'd like to see. Vanyel certainly focused on the negative, but saw the smaller positives as well, and decided love and duty were enough to make this world worth it, for a little while. I'd quote that, but two pages might be a little much. But everyone go reread the passage in the middle of MPromise, on the balcony on Sovvan Night. So is the world worth it? Is there anything we can do to change it? Can we see the world and not accept it, focus on the negative but not to the exclusion of everything else? I believe so. But if I didn't, I would go mad. "to each his Dulcinea" Ambermoon Singer of Fire Royal Defender of the Brat believer in impossible dreams _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1968 **********************************