MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1977 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) "Witch" update (only for the strong and interested) by Kenneth Allen Hyde 2) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 1974 by "Derrick O" 3) Re: Star Wars by "You" 4) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 1974 by Melvin Nevergold ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:54:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Allen Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: "Witch" update (only for the strong and interested) Message-ID: So, here's what my friends in the etymology and dictionary disciplines have to say about "witch" (see below for my discussion and a list of the abbreviations used): Kathleen Evans-Romaine wrote: > Merriam-Webster 3rd New International (unabridged) gives both > derivations, but with different meanings: > > 1. witch [ME wyche, from OE wice, wic; prob. akin to OE wican (to yield, > give way -- see "weak")]: any of several trees having pliant branches. > > 2. witch [ME wicche, from OE wicca (wizard) & wicce (witch); akin to > OE wiccian (to practice witchcraft), MHG wicken (to bewich, to > divine), OE wigle (divination), wiglian (to divine), wig (idol, > image), ON ve (temple) -- see "victim"]: {several definitions that all > boil down to 'sorceress' or 'hag'} > > I was curious, so I saw "victim" and found: > > victim [L victima; akin to OE wih, weoh, wig (idol, image), OHG wih, > wihi (holy), ON ve (temple), Goth weihs (holy), Skt vinakti (he > separates, sets apart -- basic meaning: to set apart, to single out)]: > (I will spare you the litany of woe that follows.) J L Speranza wrote: > Interestingly, W Skeat's Etym. Dict. of the Enlgish Language (OUP) > supports the 'masc/fem' thesis, making 'witch' both masc or fem (Skeat > being of Viking stock, he also dwells more on the Scandinavian > cognates): WITCH (E) ME wicche, BOTH MASC AND FEM, a wizard, a witch; > A.S. wicce, fem; also wicca, m. Allied to AS wiccian, to pracise > witchcraft. E Fries wikken + MDu wicker, 'a soothsayer', Hexham; Low G > wikken, to predict. Cf Norw vikya, (1) to turn aside, (2) to conjure > away. This links it with Icel vikya (pp vikinn), to move, turn, push > aside; and with English Weak. Thus witch perhaps = 'averter'. Der. > betwitch, vb (above) > OE 'wican', Skeat notes, meant 'to bend', whence, 'witch-elm' (Ulmus > montana). "The sense is 'bending', or drooping, from the pendulous > branches (from OE wicen, pp of wican, to bend. See WICKER). Onions > notes witch-elm is from OE wice, wick, prob f Germ *wik- BEND (see > WEAK). The abbreviations for languages that are used above are: ME = Middle English OE = Old English MHG = Middle High German ON = Old Norse OHG = Old High German Skt = Sanskrit E = English AS = Anglo-Saxon E Fries = East Friesian MDu = Middle Dutch LowG = Low German Generally, the etymological source for "witch" seems to be from the Germanic Language family. It is possible that there is a Gaelic cognate (or that there used to be one), since the root is clearly very old (it predates the Latin/Sanskrit split) and might have survived in the Celtic languages. However, the existence of a cognate does not, in itself, mean that the word in Modern English is historically derived from a Gaelic language. The derivation of "witch" from OE seems to be fairly well attested and documented. One final bit of "evidence" might be the final consonant sound of "witch" in Modern English. There is a historically documented pattern of palatalization of [k] to "ch" in the development of Modern English from Old English, when the [k] sound was followed by a front vowel ("e" or "i"). This produced words like "church" (from OE "cirice") and "ciese" (from OE "ciese"). Going from OE wicce to "witch" would be a totally predicted and normal progression. However, as far as I know, Celtic borrowings into English, never underwent this change. If anything, they tended to have a [k]-->[s] change, so that many people pronounce "Celtic" [keltik] as [seltik]. This is probably a post-Norman-Conquest development and reflects the latinate rule that changed Caesar [kaisar] to modern [sis-+AT+-r]. Older borrowings didn't undergo palatalization, and the [k] stayed a [k]: e.g., my name "Kenneth" is originally Welsh "Cennydd". It was borrowed into English fairly early but never underwent palatlization, so I'm not called "Chenneth" =) May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd Councilor of Mist Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me //www.ling.udel.edu/hyde/prof/ken.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 20:47:27 PDT From: "Derrick O" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 1974 Message-ID: <19990527034728.706.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> ----Original Message Follows---- From: MacFey oh by golly gee... a obmisty... um... ok...I've been loosely following the witch thread... and have a question... do you think a person not pagen inclined can write using it in a persuasive/convinceing way using research alone? personally I do not believe one has to be a witch or warlock or wizard to write using elements of these beliefs... so whatever misty's personal beliefs maybe is not my consern... ---------------------------------------------- Personally I don't feel a person needs to have personal experience to write about any specific subject if they do the proper research. It helps to have personal experience, but if people, especially sci-fi and fantasy writers were to write about only those things that they had experince with then there would be hardly anything in the genres. Research is the most valuable tool of a writer even more than personal experience becuase it gives you a wider view of more than just personal knowledge. Speaking from personal experience I know I get more useable information on just about every subject out of research than I do out of my own expereinces. There will always be that extra added little touch when you can speak from your own knowledge, but it isn't necessary to be believeable. On another subject someone asked which character I'd like to see in Valdemar... well I can't think of any there, but I would think it would be interesting to see Tanya Huff's Vicky Nelson pop up with Di Tregarde or Tannim *S* Just my own thoughts on the subject. -Derrick _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:26:10 -0000 From: "You" To: Subject: Re: Star Wars Message-ID: <00d801bea867$9a40fa00$2ea415a5-+AT+-knbwubxl> Ambermoon said something as Velgarth being a modern myth? Yes, I think all fantasy novels _are_ modern myths. But then again, is there any need to mythologise the fantasy? they _Are_ based on the myths/sound very like the myths in the first place. always the bits about a hero saving a damsel in distress yada yada yada... so maybe the hero sometimes turns out to be female. so? ;) Lady Ember asked: :who are the 'Singers of Fire'? I'll bet, (being the logical person that I am) that it :has something to do with Firesong? we are the people who defend firesong the way the order of amber and marigold defend van (not that van needs much in the way of defending...) that's all for now. purple sheep! ( ) Wind to thy Wings <==-+AT+-==> Shadowblade, mindmate to Raul | | Fairgove elven archer >>~~~> | | High Priestess of the Goddess of Elves and Unicorns and OOPS | | Singer of Fire, Member of the Mistic Circle \/ OOUH Advocate of the entire Urban Fantasy group! :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:53:09 -0400 From: Melvin Nevergold To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 1974 Message-ID: <014e91848131b59FE1-+AT+-mail1.carolina.rr.com> More of Tannim period also if someone would kindy e-mail me instructions on setting digest I'd like it seems i forgot how >On another subject someone asked which character I'd like to see in >Valdemar... well I can't think of any there, but I would think it would be >interesting to see Tanya Huff's Vicky Nelson pop up with Di Tregarde or >Tannim *S* Just my own thoughts on the subject. > > -Derrick ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1977 **********************************