MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2042 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 2041 by Miranda Warren 2) MLML Companions as avatars by Peter Allen 3) The great Companion debate by Angela Doyon 4) Re: MLML Companions as avatars by Kerowyn73-+AT+-aol.com 5) Re: The great Companion debate by "Phil COHEN" 6) MLML Lists/Storm Ending/SoIce/ by Peter Allen 7) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 2039 by ronalda pettrey 8) happy bouncy news for me! by Lisa Nicole Holcomb 9) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 2041 by Kelley Leverich 10) Re: happy bouncy news for me! by "Mark Severson" 11) Re: Happy bouncy...worlds, and kind of a braid by Lisa Whitman 12) Re: MLML Companions as avatars by Kenneth Allen Hyde ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:53:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Miranda Warren To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 2041 Message-ID: <19990804235315.28651.rocketmail-+AT+-web208.mail.yahoo.com> *~*~*~*~*~* FLUFF*~*~*~*~*~ Walks in, covered in dust and sputtering, "It's finished! BY GOD, IT'S FINISHED!!! Aryenne proudly displays her short story in it's completed form and then notices that her mail box is flashing with Misty Digests. A scream is heard, "You have 64 messages?!?!?! AHHHHHH!!!!" ~*~*~*~*~*~END FLUFF *~*~*~*~* << Spoiler for Sword of Ice, A Herald's Honor > * > * > * > * > * > Martin slept with Lyssa and even made the vow that > Lyssa would be his one > and only. Shouldn't something have stopped him from > making that vow? Or > maybe Mickey Zucker Reichert made a mistake. It's > certainly possible. > Not everyone has the priviledge of being on this > list. > :) > * > * * * * Reply to Spoiler * * * I don't think it was a mistake...I mean, look at Tylendel and the guy that was there before Van. (You know the one that broke his heart and couldn't decide if he was shay a'chern or not and always said he had been seduced.) That was allowed to happen. A vow like that can be broken, as the story states. * * * * * * End spoiler reply * * * * * ObMisty....hmm I'm sure this has been asked before, but I'm practically dying to know. What book is the "Threes" song from on "Heralds, Harpers, and Havoc" I'd really really really like to read it, so I'll give anyone who can tell me a GIANT batch of choco-chip sheep cookies. === Aryenne Winterfire Protector of the Freeze Dried Sheep Flock Http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/4736/index.html Member of the CfWD, Albertan Division Loyal Member of the Great Spork Empire! _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 19:11:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Allen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: MLML Companions as avatars Message-ID: <19990805021145.25542.rocketmail-+AT+-web601.yahoomail.com> Ken wrote: >>Misty clearly uses "avatar" to mean a special servant of a divine Power. In that sense, if "Guardian Spirit" is just a theological neutral way of saying avatar, then it is conceivable that both Grove Born and Companion Born Companions are avatars.<< I would agree with this thread of thought, however.. >>BTW, the first suggestion that Companions are avatar-like creatures is the meeting of Roald and the Star-Eyed in OBreakers. Misty clearly liked the idea and continued to develop it in later books.<< The problem that I have with this idea is that, from what I took of the Star-Eyed's avatars in the Winds and Storm books, they had to do expressly what the goddess told them to do, or else they got severely punished. Part of that was to not interfere with the way that people lived there lives, unless commanded otherwise. Companions, however, are fully integrated into the lives of those around them. While you could say that they are a special version of avatars, it still is hard to really say. Imo, I would think more that they are simply a conjured being from the god/desses and put into a physical form. From what I recall, the Star-Eyed called them her children, but it didn't particularly state that they were her servants, which avatars truly are. Children can go off on their own easily enough, but avatars are much more bound to what they can and cannot do. Bright be thy day, Wintershard Councilor of Mist _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 23:57:42 -0400 From: Angela Doyon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: The great Companion debate Message-ID: <19990804.235744.-232847.0.Songrunner-+AT+-juno.com> Heyla all! (Creeping out from a months-long stay in lurkdom) Having *finally* caught up with my back-mail from the list, I've decided to throw my 2 cents in. As I was reading along the posts of the "Great Companion Debate", a possibly insignificant little detail just popped into my head. Gwena seems to be an all-around special case as far as GB's go. As far as I've been able to figure out, all of the GB Companions have been Monarch's Own Companions, with the exceptions of the first few. But one other thing was mentioned by Teren in Orientation class. He said that all of the MOC's were grove-born, and that they were all Stallions, rather than mares. But Gwena's a mare. I'm probably looking a little far into this, but might there be some sort of significance here, too? Aryenne Winterfire asked: >"What book is the "Threes" song from on "Heralds, Harpers, and Havoc" I'd really really really like to read it, so I'll give anyone who can tell me a GIANT batch of choco-chip sheep cookies." It was in the Vows and Honor books, in Oathbound, as one of Tarma and Kethry's adventures as wandering mercs. Of course, the obnoxious bard that wrote it messed up a few details! Thanks for the choco-chip sheep cookies! Oh, one other thing about Van and Stefen being re-incarnated. I suppose I'd better leave some spoiler space here... S P O I L E R S P A C E When Karal and An'desha are walking the moonpaths after the final storm, I think it was Dawnfire and Tre'valen that told them what happened to Van and Stefen. They make it sound a little vague, but they mention that they had some choices to make, and that they couldn't come to say goodbye because they had little time to spare before they had to do whatever it was they were going to do. Now, if they had just gone on to the Havens, why would they have had to rush to get there? I sort of took that to mean that they chose to be re-incarnated, and that whatever they were to be re-incarnated as, it had to be as soon as possible, or however those thing work. Hope that clarifies things for someone. E N D S P O I L E R S P A C E Anyway. I'm sure I've confused enough people for the time-being now, so I'll stop now. Grove-born sheep to all! Songrunner ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 03:16:04 EDT From: Kerowyn73-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MLML Companions as avatars Message-ID: <4ed34822.24da9434-+AT+-aol.com> Greetings, Councilor of Mist Wintershard, My duty to you mighty Councilor. ~bows deeply~ I just have one thought about the below comment, if I may... In a message dated 8/4/99 10:06:59 PM US Eastern Standard Time, minterra-+AT+-yahoo.com writes: << The problem that I have with this idea is that, from what I took of the Star-Eyed's avatars in the Winds and Storm books, they had to do expressly what the goddess told them to do, or else they got severely punished. Part of that was to not interfere with the way that people lived there lives, unless commanded otherwise. Companions, however, are fully integrated into the lives of those around them. From what I recall, the Star-Eyed called them her children, but it didn't particularly state that they were her servants, which avatars truly are. Children can go off on their own easily enough, but avatars are much more bound to what they can and cannot do. Bright be thy day, Wintershard Councilor of Mist >> I believe in several of the ML Valdemar books, there were mentions of the limits to the Star Eyed's help off the Plains or from the Forest of the Hawkbrothers. By mutual pact, the gods had willingly agreed to limit/not interfer in the domain of another god/goddes. Therefore, this might be why the Companions (as avatars) might be allowed wider rein (pardon the pun). Different rules in what is allowed? Just a thought.... Sionen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:32:35 -0400 From: "Phil COHEN" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: The great Companion debate Message-ID: <852567C4.0044AECB.00-+AT+-hector.dalet.com> Oh, one other thing about Van and Stefen being re-incarnated. I suppose I'd better leave some spoiler space here... S P O I L E R S P A C E When Karal and An'desha are walking the moonpaths after the final storm, I think it was Dawnfire and Tre'valen that told them what happened to Van and Stefen. They make it sound a little vague, but they mention that they had some choices to make, and that they couldn't come to say goodbye because they had little time to spare before they had to do whatever it was they were going to do. Now, if they had just gone on to the Havens, why would they have had to rush to get there? I sort of took that to mean that they chose to be re-incarnated, and that whatever they were to be re-incarnated as, it had to be as soon as possible, or however those thing work. Hope that clarifies things for someone. E N D S P O I L E R S P A C E That someone would be me! and after reading that statement, it made me remember it and what my immediate reaction was... that we would be seeing them again sometime real soon. After seeing where she's gone with the "owl" series, I hope that she skips a few generations... we've sort of run out of breathing room on this one. -phil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 06:12:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Allen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: MLML Lists/Storm Ending/SoIce/ Message-ID: <19990805131216.19317.rocketmail-+AT+-web601.yahoomail.com> Someone (forgot who *sheeps*) asked about mailing lists and how to start one. The best thing that you can do is first see how many people would like to start one. From there, you can sort of gauge the interest before looking into things... I know of quite a few lists that started out as simple CC lists. If you like, you can look into the professional mailing list holders. Vanyel (the ML list server) is run off of herald.co.uk's mail processor, a private company (why things like the Rules of Thumb are so important). There are other ones, though, that either charge a small fee or will do it for free... I don't have the list in front of me at the moment, apologies for that. Hope that this helps :) --- Songrunner wrote re Van and Stef: >>*snip* Now, if they had just gone on to the Havens, why would they have had to rush to get there?<< Imo, this was more of a plot device than anything else... Van and Stef weren't truly attached to An'Desha for anything. It would have probably been different were it either Firesong or Elspeth, but neither of them were able to walk to Moonpaths. Keeping this in mind, they both probably decided to finally get to the Havens for some good r&r&etc ;). --- Sword of Ice Spoiler Sorry, I couldn't find the person who wrote it, but: >>Martin slept with Lyssa and even made the vow that Lyssa would be his one and only. Shouldn't something have stopped him from making that vow? Or maybe Mickey Zucker Reichert made a mistake.<< I would say no, more because it shows that the Heralds are allowed to make their own mistakes, even if it includes breaking certain vows that they have made in the past. This seemed more a story between two lovers, with Heralds as the characters, imo :). More akin to personal values rather than ones related to duty. This does of course open to the question of which sort of vows a Herald is allowed to break because they are a Herald... anyone willing to suggest? Bright be thy day in the sun, Wintershard Councilor of Mist _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 06:45:41 -0700 (PDT) From: ronalda pettrey To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 2039 Message-ID: <19990805134541.600.rocketmail-+AT+-web503.yahoomail.com> Please do not send me anymore emails on this subject. I would like to cancel my subscription to your website. Thank you. --- mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk wrote: > MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2039 > > Topics covered in this issue include: > > 1) last straw and the Camels back > by B10nd31-+AT+-aol.com > 2) Re: Monarch's Own Companion > by Emily > 3) RE: the last straw and other matters. > by Greg McTague > 4) MOC's > by B10nd31-+AT+-aol.com > 5) Re: last straw and the Camels back > by B10nd31-+AT+-aol.com > 6) Re: Monarch's Own Companion > by Shawna > 7) Re: Anthologies > by MDennis460-+AT+-aol.com > 8) RE: last straw and the Camels back > by Greg McTague > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 14:42:38 EDT > From: B10nd31-+AT+-aol.com > To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk > Subject: last straw and the Camels back > Message-ID: > > i've copied the following from Firebird and Arts web > Site at > http://firebirdarts.com/index1.htm > all below copyrighted by Mercedes Lackey and > Firebird Arts and Music. > ( just to be on the safe side ) also Misty has a > question and answer page on > the above site. > > > > Here's the deal. Most of the people who are going to > read this are nice > people. Some are nice people who are a little flaky, > but that's cool. Some > are nice people who are a LOT flaky, but that's > cool, too. But some are not > nice people, and they have real problems. A few of > these are dangerous, and > want to manipulate and hurt other people, including > us. We just learned > something recently that just happened to be.... > > THE LAST STRAW > Mercedes Lackey > This is going to offend some people. These are the > people who most need to > read this. This definitely has needed to be said for > a long time. We're > writers. We write fiction, which is, by definition, > NOT FACT. Creative and > entertaining lies, if you will, but still not truth > by any kind of stretch of > the imagination. So, we've written over 40 books, of > which a grand total of > three are dark fantasy that involve the occult, > "real" psychic powers, and > nonstandard religions. So what attracts so much > trouble and so many lunatics > you'd think it was a "Free beer and come as your > favorite psychosis party" in > downtown L.A.? You've got it. The "Diana Tregarde > Investigations." Take, for > instance, the undeniable fact that I haven't written > (and at this point, > don't intend to write) any more of them. Why? THEY > DON'T SELL. The numbers > are there in black and white. DT books are > consistently and vastly outsold by > every other type of fantasy we write. Now some > people would decide that there > was an Evil Force out there preventing the sale of > their glorious books and > determine to thwart that force and PROVE how > wonderful the "unpopular" books > are, but hey, call me nutty, but I believe that > people are trying to tell you > something when they don't buy a book, and that is, > THEY DON'T WANT THEM! Why > should we write something people don't want? If > every hardcore Diana Tregarde > fan bought fifty copies of each book, I could afford > to maybe buy a new VCR > with the royalties. There are plenty of other people > who are already writing > books people don't want, and doing it in bigger > numbers than we can! Just > take a look at the remainder- racks! > But, oh, the rumors! Conspiracy theories that would > make Oliver Stone burst > into tears of envy! Someone periodically starts a > rumor that the publisher is > "suppressing" the books---the fact is, that like me, > they want to publish > books that are going to compete with our more > popular series. Another is that > they have been published, but a fundamentalist group > bought them all so no > one else could read them, ignoring the fact that if > anyone bought an entire > print-run of anything, it would be on the New York > Times bestseller list! Or > my favorite two rumors, that appeared IN THE SAME > WEEK, one that Larry was a > fundamentalist who was preventing me from writing > them, and a rumor that > Larry was an evil pagan who was preventing me from > writing them! Then there > are the letters taking me to task for not following > the letter-writer's own > particular brand of politically correct neopaganism. > THESE BOOKS ARE > ENTERTAINMENT ONLY, PEOPLE! I'M NOT RUNNING A > RECRUITMENT BUREAU, HERE! And > if YOU want a book featuring YOUR favorite brand of > religion, YOU go out and > write and try to sell one, and good luck and don't > let the door hit you on > the way out! > They were written at the time when horror was > outselling everything else, and > hey, I wrote them to make money. We've got a > mortgage to pay. I suppose by > some people's standards that is a heinous crime, but > I'm sorry for offending > your delicate little sensibilities. Actually, no I'm > not. Get a life, get a > grip, and grow a spine; you all ought to know by now > that we don't do PC. > Then there are the people who insist that the > Guardians are real. Hey, if > there really were Guardians, you'd see panicky > skinheads buying up the > Rogaine supply like the KKK at a white sale. There'd > be no such thing as a > crooked televangelist, when they'd have real demons > popping in on their shows > to tell them where they were REALLY going. > "But Guardians must be real," comes the cry, "How > could you make something > like that up?" Oh for crying out loud, an "occult > police force" is one of the > oldest gizmos in horror fiction! The Nine Unknown > Men, the Hunting Lodges, > the White Lodges, Dr. Orient, Agatha Christie's > Harley Quinn, to name a few; > there's been more good and bad books involving > occult "police" than there > have been books about vampires! That's FICTION, > people! Do you really, truly, > think that if there WERE an "occult police force" > they'd have let those kids > in Florida kill their mother and drink her blood, > that they'd let kiddie- > porn and snuff-film makers continue to operate, or > that they WOULDN'T make it > their business to track down and dispose of serial > killers? What're these > guys supposedly doing, punishing junk-bond dealers? > The thing is, on one level I can sympathize with > people who would really like > to believe that Guardians are real. The world is a > scary place, and more and > more scary things are happening in it, things that > really look as if there > was a single evil hand behind it all. Hey, I wish > there were Guardians! I > also wish for peace, prosperity and an end to war. > There's about an equal > chance for either. > But now we get a little more into the shallow end of > the reality pool, > because some of these people claim that the > Guardians are this big, cohesive > group watching over everything. As far as that goes, > in MY books, the > Guardians aren't even organized! They're about as > cohesive a group as a herd > of grasshoppers! The closest thing to "organization" > they have is when two of > them run into each other at the Karaoke Club and > find out they both want to > sing "Poisoning Pigeons in the Park." There's NO > group meetings, NO politics, > no nothing---yet these same people have invented an > entire complex hierarchy > for them, complete with lodge meetings, secret > handshakes, and decoder rings! > Cripes! They aren't even reading the books, they're > just reading what THEY > want to see into the books! > It gets stranger. A whole lot stranger. We aren't > even === message truncated === _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:51:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Lisa Nicole Holcomb To: mercedes lackey listserv Subject: happy bouncy news for me! Message-ID: ****fluff***** sorry to be entirely off topic like this, but my husband got two job offers yesterday when we were entirely without hope for even one!!! so, we're moving to carollton, tx..which is close to all the stores i hold dear (like 20 half price book stores in a 30 mile radius) i'm so excited!!! *bouncebouncebounce* ****end of fluff**** ummm...ob-misty....does anyone know if the places in her bards tale books are anywhere near valdemar or are they in a completely world? -- ------------------------- Lisa Holcomb meep-+AT+-cis.tamu.edu Student Computing Center ------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 09:11:38 -0500 From: Kelley Leverich To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 2041 Message-ID: <37A99B9A.3FAD45A6-+AT+-ameritech.net> Miranda Warren wrote: > > ObMisty....hmm I'm sure this has been asked before, > but I'm practically dying to know. What book is the > "Threes" song from on "Heralds, Harpers, and Havoc" > I'd really really really like to read it, so I'll give > anyone who can tell me a GIANT batch of choco-chip > sheep cookies. > > Aryenne Winterfire > This song is based on the tale that was originally in "Fantasy Book Magazine" but has been reprinted in its original form in the collection _Oathblood_. It is called "Turnabout" and has the words to the song (and a little of this history as well). -- kelley Whoever kindles the flames of intolerance is lighting a fire underneath his own home. -- Harold E. Stassen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:24:04 -0700 From: "Mark Severson" To: Subject: Re: happy bouncy news for me! Message-ID: <000c01bedf5e$eff233a0$bd6cb4cd-+AT+-janltcea> From: Lisa Nicole Holcomb > ****fluff***** > sorry to be entirely off topic like this, but my husband got two job > offers yesterday when we were entirely without hope for even one!!! > > so, we're moving to carollton, tx..which is close to all the stores i hold > dear (like 20 half price book stores in a 30 mile radius) > > i'm so excited!!! *bouncebouncebounce* > ****end of fluff**** > Congradulations! Having once been unemployed for a year (and looking the entire time) I know what it feels like to finally get a job. In the end I had three part-time jobs at the same time, one of which lead to full-time employment - goning on 15 or 16 years now. > ummm...ob-misty....does anyone know if the places in her bards tale > books are anywhere near valdemar or are they in a completely world? > I could very well be wrong here, but I believe her bards books are in another universe. I don't recall ever reading any mention of valdemar or companions in the bards books. By the way if you like the bard books there is a writer whose name is Ivy something can't recall exactly. Her first one starts with her learning about her powers - when she melts her entire village! (This was after a plauge had killed everyone and she was attempting to take care of the dead) Anyone remember this? Help! Mark Severson markttz-+AT+-eoni.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:21:09 -0700 From: Lisa Whitman To: "'mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk'" Subject: Re: Happy bouncy...worlds, and kind of a braid Message-ID: >ummm...ob-misty....does anyone know if the places in her bards tale >books are anywhere near valdemar or are they in a completely world? Velgarth is a separate world than any of the bardic books. Oh...and the Staf/Vanyel coming back thread....according to Misty (from a convention Q&A awhile ago), both Van & Stef are hanging out "in Bermuda" (Havens) for a long-deserved rest. I don't think that they will be coming back. Star ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 13:45:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Allen Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Re: MLML Companions as avatars Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 1999, Peter Allen wrote: > From what I recall, the Star-Eyed called them her > children, but it didn't particularly state that they > were her servants, which avatars truly are. Children > can go off on their own easily enough, but avatars are > much more bound to what they can and cannot do. Well, there's no reason to assume that the Star-Eyed is the only deity with avatars. And since we particularly have no evidence that the Companions are servants of the Star-Eyed, there is no real reason to assume that they have to be *her* avatars, unless you also accept the "only two Gods" theory that was proposed by Korendil (back in the day). In fact, we know that Vkandis has Companion-like servants, the Firecats (although it's less clear that they are avatars). BTW, I just want to point out that if we, and Misty, were using the term "avatar" correctly, there would be no characters in any of the books that could be called avatars. An avatar, in its real-world meaning, is a divine form or aspect of a particular godhead. The term is originally from Sanskrit (IIRC) and was borrowed into English to talk about Hindu theology, where the concept is crucial. An independently originated creature is not an avatar, but merely a servant (perhaps an "angel" in the old sense of the word). In the original sense, the Maiden and the Star-Eyed are avatars of the Goddess Kale'nal, just as Krisna or Kalkin are avatars of Visnu in Hindu theology. All of which is sort of beside the point, since Misty is free to redefine her terms as she wishes, particularly when there is no existing term in English for the concept she is trying to convey. But I had to point it out. It's been bugging me for a while. =) May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd Councilor of Mist Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me //www.ling.udel.edu/hyde/prof/ken.html ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2042 **********************************