[LMB] Re: Reread of Coc

Nicholas Rosen ndrosen at erols.com
Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:45:42 -0500


Betsy Hosler wrote:


> I wrote:
> >>no other heirs in the family, the holdings might have reverted to the
crown
> >>and been reissued, so to speak. In that case, he wouldn't expect to be
able
> >>to get them back, and would have no reason to expect the current holder
to

Possibly, but I don't think that holdings in most feudal societies reverted
very easily.  (If a holder was convicted of treason, that could be a
different story.)  We don't know that Lupe dy Cazaril held the castle
and estate before the fall//// shameful sale of Gotorget, although he could
have.  He doesn't seem to have spent much time at home, but to have
been a professional soldier/courier/courtier, and there's no indication
in the book that he had heard of his home being confiscated and
given to some hanger-on of dy Jironal, or that he had thought of making
inquiries to learn whether it had happened or not.

So, given that we know he had (has?) an older brother, it seems much
more likely to me that he had been a landless minor noble, living a life
of military and other service all his adult life.  We hear a fair amount
about his doings, but nothing about him resting at the Cazaril castle
between campaigns, cultivating the garden, collecting rents from his
tenants, and whatever else a gentleman of Chalion does at home.

> SKnott said:
> >I don't see why not; am I missing something?
> >
> >Legal action or petition to the Roya or appropriate Provincar would be
> >fairly easy once he got to the capitol and lost his protective coloring
> >... and there's a good chance he'd win (absent dy Jironal interference)

Of course, "absent dy Jironal interference" is a pretty major
condition, but there's no indication that he even thought of trying,
or resented the supposed loss.  So I think he had been without a
real home for quite a while.

> I should point out that I am assuming the lands etc are "owned" in the
> sense of a feudal system, not in the modern sense. They are held at the
> will of the Roya, not owned outright. The legalities of it are "they
belong
> to whoever I say they belong to". Any transfer to an heir must be approved
> by the crown, with that being routine in most cases.

This is a little ambiguous.  It seems that provincarships can be conferred
on whomever the Roya chooses to appoint, but they would normally stay
within the family, passing to the oldest son or other heir.  The Dowager
Provincara and her clan are the dy Baocia family, not the Smiths, who
govern the province of Baocia.  I'd appreciate hearing from a Chalionese
lawyer about this.  8-)

> At the time Caz made the statement about no longer being Castillar, his
> self-confidence etc was shot, he had no intention of going anywhere near
> the capital or dy Jironal, and there would have been dy Jironal
> interference. Aside from that, if the lands etc have been given to someone
> else, that person was probably in favor with the ruler (or dy Jironal) and
> they aren't going to want to offend that person by taking back their new
> property. Under "normal" circumstances, Caz might have been given other
> available lands, but still probably wouldn't have gotten his original
grant
> back. If he had enough pull or connections to do that, someone should have
> come looking for him after Gotorget.

Well, that's one possible interpretation, but there seems to be a lack
of the textev we would expect to see if it were true.  Also, feudal
societies, when they aren't shaken up by new conquests, civil war,
or bloodthirsty kings, tend to have the same lands passed from
generation to generation.  The Grand Princes of Muscovy sent
favored courtiers to govern an area for a year's *kormlenie*, or two
years as a special distinction, but the feudal societies of further
west (and other directions, for that matter) weren't like the
patrimonial state of medieval Russia.


Regards,
Nicholas Rosen