[LMB] OT: Women hitting on men

Marna Nightingale marna at redmaplegrove.org
Thu, 07 Feb 2002 00:28:53 -0500

Bart Kemper wrote:
>  Here is *my* beef, which I've brought up before:  if a guy is shot down,
> he's usually used to it.  If a woman is told "no", no matter how
> nicely, its been my experience over half the time she takes GREAT
> offense and is stunned someone would turn down "free p**sy", that I
> must be gay, etc.

And you know?  I sort of take that to mean that she shouldn't be hitting on men.
Not that particular woman, I don't think she's comfy enough with it for it to be
a good idea. 

Just like I don't think that guy should be encouraging women to hit on him,

Yes, equality is a very good thing to shoot for. I'm in favour of it. 

But I have never, in my life, gotten anything good by making myself do things
around sex or relationships that I truly did not will to do (as opposed to was
nervous about), and I am not starting now, and I don't think most people should. 

I was raised by a woman born in 1933, and secondly by my grandmother, a woman
born in 1900. 
Evolved-grrl, I'm not. Not really. Lots of soft-spots there. Still working on

If in many ways I'm fiercer and more radical and more angry and twisted than
many of my cohort, it's partly about where I'm coming from. I'm a feminist. A
strong committed one.  I've spent a LOT of the last 12 years revamping the
inside of my head. Learning to treat myself properly, and yes, learning to treat
men properly. 

But you know what? My sexual/romantic relationships are ALWAYS the last thing to
get there, whenever I change something or get from point A to point B on
something.  I need them to be fairly safe places, and I am NOT always going to
be Ms Cutting Edge when it comes to sex and love. 

I've been raped; it doesn't help. I Have Issues. I Have Anthologies. Love me,
love my issues...

And I don't *DO*  "should want". 

Maybe I 'should want' a lot of things. I don't.  In my case I dont' want to be
hit on aggressively, by men or women. Many women don't want to hit on men. 

I'm not really willing to give them a hard time for that. They'll get there. Or

> However, I fully concur that in many, if not most cases where a man 
> said he wanted a more agressive woman, wanted to have sex with two 
> women, and other behaviors or events outside of the 'traditional' 
> "man chases woman, woman then makes decision to either go along with 
> it or reject" that the man becomes intimidated or very unsure, 
> realizing he DIDN't want it after all.

Not alien to me. 

Anyway, please don't anyone assume I'm being nasty about men in particular or
general here; I'm not, I'm sort of free-theorizing, what do you folks think kind
of thing... on account of I just had this flash of inspiration...

I was thinking about this during the 'male rape' thread, too, because I've heard
a shocking lot of guys say that they 'wish that would happen to THEM' as well. 
And I sort of look at them. And wonder. What on EARTH they think it's like. It
used to make me mad. Now I just wonder. 

And it occurred to me: I  wonder if a lot of guys don't have a really
articulated sense of 'fantasy' versus 'roleplay option' versus 'wish'?  Because
they have not really needed to aquire it...

If my workshop informants are right, many men fantasize about being the
'receptive' (I HATE passive) partner, somewhere on the continuum from "I'd like
to be be hit on" to "I'd like to be hit" and everything in between... including
"I'd like to be 'forced' (note quotes) to have sex." 

And yes, many women, too, but we'll leave them for a bit, 'kay?

More Things We Just Don't Teach In School. 

It's one of those classic things, and we teach it to women now, that just
because you've thought about it doesn't mean that you want it to happen or made
it happen -- and I think because women are socialized to be afraid of rape, to
see themselves as potential targets, they have at least some intuitive sense
that THIS is not THAT. 

But we don't teach it to men. We don't talk about men having fantasies like that
at all, and when they do talk about it, it's often covered a bit, slightly
skewed: I'm irresistable, women can't keep away from me, I'm swamped... 

But fantasising about being the receptive one  is a very different thing than
wanting to be the one not in control of a real scenario. 

In the one, you're running everything, but you don't have to do anything. In the
other it's not like that. 

And it is NOTHING like being in a situation where  your will is actually being
overridden, which is actually horrible.

Anyway, I don't know where this is going. 

Anyone want to take it apart or run with it? 

Marna Nightingale
marna at redmaplegrove.org
"Women should not be enlightened or educated in any way. They should, in fact,
be segregated as they are the cause of hideous and involuntary erections in holy men."
St. Augustine.