From micarr1 at juno.com  Mon Aug  4 03:39:11 2003
From: micarr1 at juno.com (Margaret I Carr)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 19:39:11 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Update on Croatian Winterfair Gifts project
Message-ID: <20030803.193912.-776509.4.micarr1@juno.com>

On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 10:46:19 -0600 House of Unruly Fish
<carosue at centurytel.net> writes:
SNIP 
> THIS:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3534596606
> 
> is just an experiment on my part, to test interest in this venue and 
also 
> to sneak in a little pre-pub interest for PoS.  Listees should NOT  bid
on 
> this.  Honest!
> 
> But you can read it, because it's kind of fun.

Oh, yes. Definitely fun, but, do you realize how HARD it was NOT to bid?
I had to stop and take my copy off the shelf and hug and stroke it for a
bit to suppress the urge. 

Very nice pre-pub effort! You done good!

Margaret I. Carr



--------________--------________--------

From RayLists at quixnet.net  Fri Aug  1 00:03:21 2003
From: RayLists at quixnet.net (Ray)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:03:21 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Mostly offtopic not all,   Polarization/flammable
 warning, was Can't stand it any more.
References: <000801c3579d$b8d00b70$6401a8c0@EVO800>
 <05bd01c357b5$91144e30$6c3a0144@Laptop>
Message-ID: <01f301c357b7$f089cbe0$6e9f68d1@RDrouill>

I vote to let the discussion continue.  I have been reading it, and it
continues to be civil.

Ray

----- Original Message -----
From: "pam" <pam at gotcher.us>
To: <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [LMB] Mostly offtopic not all, Polarization/flammable warning,
was Can't stand it any more.


> I'll second the pizza.
> Pam
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gordon Jackson" <gordon at gordonj.net>
> To: <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 2:55 PM
> Subject: RE: [LMB] Mostly offtopic not all, Polarization/flammable
warning,
> was Can't stand it any more.
>
>
> > I would like to call Pizza on this thread please. I have learned the
> > hard way over the years that on any mailing list with a significant
> > number of participants resident in the continent of North America, there
> > are two topics which, if discussion is permitted on them and continues
> > for any length of time, have the potential to destroy mailing lists.
> > This is one of those topics. Do I have the support of two others?
> >
> > Anyway, would this not be more appropriate for the Star Crhche list? Or
> > does that no longer exist?
> >
> > Cheers, Gordon
> >
> > >Subject: Re: [LMB] Mostly offtopic not all, Polarization/flammable
> > warning, >was Can't stand it any more.
> >
> > >EXTREMELY offtopic inflammable, polarization stuff below.....
> > --
> > Lois-Bujold mailing list
> > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
> >
> >
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Fri Aug  1 00:01:05 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:01:05 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: Can't take it any more
Message-ID: <a5.3d7d7e3d.2c5af9b1@aol.com>

Sara A. writes:
> 
> >1.  If you don't want children, use birth control.  If you're male, use a 
> condom **no matter what she tells you**.  If you don't, you must deal with 
> the consequences.  I don't see any argument that tries to get around that 
> as either reasonable OR moral.

A friend whose family has a tendency to polycystic ovaries had two sisters 
who recently gave birth---one of them to triplets---conceived while they were on 
the pill.  Both are married, and although both were trying to avoid 
pregnancy, it wasn't a disaster for either of them.  However, men should take note that 
even if she IS TELLING THE TRUTH about being on the pill, it isn't 100% 
reliable.

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From jparish at siue.edu  Fri Aug  1 00:03:40 2003
From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:03:40 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Filk plug
Message-ID: <3F2959FC.27808.306CA8E@localhost>

A couple of years ago, I wrote a filk, "I'm Going to Set Them Free", to 
the tune of "Takin' It to the Streets", by the Doobie Brothers. Several 
listmembers were unfamiliar with the original tune, however. I just 
noticed that PBS is soon to show an episode of Soundstage centered 
on Michael Macdonald, who was the lead singer for the Doobies on that 
song - and that song will be one of the ones featured. So, if anyone 
who receives PBS has any residual curiosity, now's your chance. (Here 
in the St. Louis area, it's next Tuesday at 8; check your local listings.)

Jim Parish



--------________--------________--------

From jparish at siue.edu  Fri Aug  1 00:07:05 2003
From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:07:05 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Filk plug erratum
Message-ID: <3F295AC9.15023.309EEE1@localhost>

Sigh. That's "McDonald", not Macdonald. (And I know exactly who to 
blame for the slip-up. You know who you are...)

Jim Parish



--------________--------________--------

From kelts at earthlink.net  Fri Aug  1 00:09:54 2003
From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:09:54 -0700
Subject: [LMB] thread discussion, and Betan birth control in the (old) news
In-Reply-To: <1059689416.3f2993c8d1f71@charrel.net>
Message-ID: <002201c357b8$da8bcd60$b6432904@earthlink.net>

Marna wrote:
> > For now I'd vote for letting it run.  
> > 
> > Thoughts from others? 

I have no objection - people seem to be trying to stay calm.  But PLEASE
people, use the OT: marker.  Some people will not want to read that
thread - make it easier for them to weed it out. 

Agnes wrote: 
> Just one, and it is actually on topic: does the fact that 
> Beta Colony has perfect (not "works 99%+ of the time *if 
> used correctly*") birth control make it fantasy instead of SF?   ;)

Ah, I'd actually been meaning to post something related to this for a
while, but got distracted.  And since it's not really related to the
earlier topic, but is more Betan Tech In The News, I shall post on
unafraid. 

Do we actually have textevd that Betan implants are 100%?  There
certainly does seem to be an underlying assumption that they are. 

Anyway, I recently learned about a birth control that's been currently
developed, that sounded to me VERY much like the Betan implants.  It's
been out in Europe for years, and out in the US for 3 years, but hey,
apparently I've been under a rock too much - just saw an ad for it a
couple weeks, and went off to the website to investigate.

http://www.mirena-us.com/

It's basically an IUD that releases a local dose of progesterone.
Local, not systemic, and no estrogen, so doesn't get the side effects of
the pill/Norplant. 

Similarities to Betan implant - it's not something you use, it's
implanted and you forget about it.   It's listed as more than 99%
effective.  (Hm, legal thought - I wonder if they'd EVER let anybody
advertise something as 100%.  It's listed as "effective as
sterilization)  It has a tendency to either really lighten periods, for
some women, or turn them off altogether for others. 

(From Barrayar:)
"I've had my implant since I was fourteen. I had a menstrual period once
then, I remember. We turn them off till they're needed."

Another similarity is that once you have it taken out, you go back to
the same level of fertility as if you'd been using no birth control at
all - no long delays getting back to normal fertility, as many women
experience with the pill.  Again from Barrayar, Cordelia's description:

"I didn't think it would happen so fast," Cordelia went on. "I thought
we'd be in for several months of earnest and delightful experiment. But
we caught the baby first try. So I still haven't had a menstrual period,
here on Barrayar."

The main *difference* I'm seeing from the Betan implants is that it is
very much advertised as a Mom's form of birth control [1] - they don't
generally recommend IUD-type birth control for women who have not had
children yet.  So putting it in a 14 year old would not be expected.
But if that could be overcome, you'd just about have the Betan implant. 


Laura Gallagher

[1][personal side note] Given that this upcoming baby, unlike the last,
was conceived just as fast as Miles, and thereby the spacing is a lot
closer than I'd really planned... why, YES, I've discussed Mirena with
my midwife, and I expect to run not walk to the local Planned Parenthood
as soon as possible after Whosis is born...
[/personal side note]



--------________--------________--------

From tiamat at tsoft.com  Fri Aug  1 00:12:42 2003
From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:12:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [LMB] Re: Can't take it any more
In-Reply-To: <a5.3d7d7e3d.2c5af9b1@aol.com>
References: <a5.3d7d7e3d.2c5af9b1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030731161127.O17887@shell.rawbw.com>

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 CatMtn at aol.com wrote:

> A friend whose family has a tendency to polycystic ovaries had
> two sisters who recently gave birth--one of them to
> triplets--conceived while they were on the pill.  Both are
> married, and although both were trying to avoid pregnancy, it
> wasn't a disaster for either of them.  However, men should take
> note that even if she IS TELLING THE TRUTH about being on the
> pill, it isn't 100% reliable.

And it is absolutely criminal that doctors do not tell patients
taking antibiotics that they cannot rely on the birth control
pill while taking them.

This is how I got pregnant.

~malfoy
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann



--------________--------________--------

From pam at gotcher.us  Fri Aug  1 00:14:38 2003
From: pam at gotcher.us (pam)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:14:38 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Mostly offtopic not all,   Polarization/flammable
 warning, was Can't stand it any more.
References: <000801c3579d$b8d00b70$6401a8c0@EVO800>
 <05bd01c357b5$91144e30$6c3a0144@Laptop>
 <01f301c357b7$f089cbe0$6e9f68d1@RDrouill>
Message-ID: <05fc01c357b9$83fabdc0$6c3a0144@Laptop>

Since we've had 3 pizza calls, this is not an option.
Pam
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ray" <RayLists at quixnet.net>
To: <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: [LMB] Mostly offtopic not all, Polarization/flammable warning,
was Can't stand it any more.


> I vote to let the discussion continue.  I have been reading it, and it
> continues to be civil.
>
> Ray
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "pam" <pam at gotcher.us>
> To: <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 6:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [LMB] Mostly offtopic not all, Polarization/flammable
warning,
> was Can't stand it any more.
>
>
> > I'll second the pizza.
> > Pam
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gordon Jackson" <gordon at gordonj.net>
> > To: <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 2:55 PM
> > Subject: RE: [LMB] Mostly offtopic not all, Polarization/flammable
> warning,
> > was Can't stand it any more.
> >
> >
> > > I would like to call Pizza on this thread please. I have learned the
> > > hard way over the years that on any mailing list with a significant
> > > number of participants resident in the continent of North America,
there
> > > are two topics which, if discussion is permitted on them and continues
> > > for any length of time, have the potential to destroy mailing lists.
> > > This is one of those topics. Do I have the support of two others?
> > >
> > > Anyway, would this not be more appropriate for the Star Crhche list?
Or
> > > does that no longer exist?
> > >
> > > Cheers, Gordon
> > >
> > > >Subject: Re: [LMB] Mostly offtopic not all, Polarization/flammable
> > > warning, >was Can't stand it any more.
> > >
> > > >EXTREMELY offtopic inflammable, polarization stuff below.....
> > > --
> > > Lois-Bujold mailing list
> > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Lois-Bujold mailing list
> > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
> >
> -- 
> Lois-Bujold mailing list
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>
>



--------________--------________--------

From bkemper at bigdogz.com  Fri Aug  1 00:25:48 2003
From: bkemper at bigdogz.com (Bart Kemper)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:25:48 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
References: <200307312215.h6VMFCj6014016@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3F29A57C.8080801@bigdogz.com>

Marna wrote:

> Nice to have you back! 
> 
> Sadly, I think I must have been leaving your neck of the woods around
> the time you were returning to it. 
>  
> 

Could be.  Been back (rather prematurely) since end of May, but have 
been rather busy catching up with wife, business, family, kids, etc.

>> It's right up there with "equal right" but women aren't eligable for the
>> draft.  
> 
> 
> As far as I can tell, that's not a very good example, simply because
> almost everyone I have ever spoken to who would agree that men and
> women ought to be equally eligible for conscription is a pretty strong
> supporter of MEN becoming INeligible for conscription.  Which is ALSO
> equality. 
> 

Totally different issues.  One is the actual call up.  The other is 
registration.  Registration for the draft in the US is mandatory for all 
males, regardless of health or other status.  If a US male does not 
register, he cannot get federal student loans, federal jobs, etc. etc. 
Women are not required to do so.  As such, males must bear the burden of 
being eligible for the draft as a price of citizenship, women are not. 
 From a classical (or Heinlienian) perspective, the would mean women are 
not full citizens since they do not bear the same burdens ... unless you 
wish to include the arguement of women being brood mares and that's 
their contribution.

Its not about whether the draft is right or wrong, popular or unpopular, 
it about the laws that are in place and placing a greater burden on one 
group than the other based on a false discriminator (gender) when people 
of the "other group" (females) are not only qualified to serve in the 
military (by the fact they are doing in right now and have been long 
before I was born) but they require *all* males, regardless of 
suitability, to register, thereby eliminating the arguement that "well, 
we need the guys for combat and drafting women won't help".  (which is 
an insanely stupid argument, anyway, since it ignores the reality of the 
military being well over 90% gender nonspecific in its jobs, and that 
most injuries and deaths occur to those not in combat arms).

Yes, I am fully aware groups like NOW state "we are against registration 
at all, therefore we are not being sexist"...but the reality is that the 
males do have to register and the law was already in place makes the 
assertation "we want the same for both genders" rather convenient..and 
weak.  It does not support an equal burden of citizenship does create a 
gender-based difference.  I find it up there with some organizations 
wanting to "pull down the walls" of all male universities but at the 
same time defend the "need for all female schools to provide a nurturing 
and healthy place".

> Popular support for conscription is extremely low. I can't see a
> movement to expand the list of possible draftees in ANY way getting
> any traction any time soon. 

That's the other issue...actually calling people up.  Theoretically it 
would take a major incident like another WTC, but by a nation state that 
declares war.  This is the actual implementation of the draft....and 
then weeding out those who would or would not be picked to serve. 
Different but related critter.

Eh...register everyone or register no one.  Given the males were ALREADY 
by law required to be registered, I find the stand of keeping women 
All all-male and all-female institutions (private ones, even if 
recieving some federal money) and let the free market show whether there 
is merit for a given school or given system....or ban *ANY* 
gender-specific university or college.

I love all of Mile's women because they seem to be the kind of woman I 
like to have as a friend...and someone I could have at my back.  They 
don't ask for special treatment based on plumbing and would be likely to 
hand you back YOUR plumbing if you tried to force it on them.  They are 
individuals and responsible for themselves, not part of a crippled 
handicapped group that needs special help to break even with the more 
superior and more capable other group (males).

Eh...sorry....got a note from an aquaintance... a medic in one of my old 
units and rumor is one of the idiots there is trying to go home by 
getting pregnant...and rumor is she using condoms with pinholes in them. 
  The word is out to stay away from her, but there apparently is no 
legal recourse to take for this by the chain of command since she is 
doing nothing illegal (having sex) as long as it isn't fraternization, 
and I'm guessing the military is a bit shy about looking bad for "being 
mean to females" after the LT Flynn debacle (the commissioned officer 
who refused direct written orders to not sleep with an enlisted woman's 
husband, who actually used her rank to tell the enlisted person to shut 
up as an order, and then Flynn was made into the victim, not the Air 
Force enlisted person.)  We have a long way to go before we have gender 
equality...and for me if it fails the "algebraic substitution test" 
where you can swap genders and it makes no difference, its wrong.



--------________--------________--------

From andi at diezmann.com  Fri Aug  1 00:20:29 2003
From: andi at diezmann.com (Andi)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:20:29 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Re: Can't take it any more, now uninformed doctors
In-Reply-To: <20030731161127.O17887@shell.rawbw.com>
Message-ID: <BB4EF24C.F6D5%andi@diezmann.com>

On 7/31/03 4:12 PM, "Azalais Malfoy" <tiamat at tsoft.com> wrote:

> And it is absolutely criminal that doctors do not tell patients
> taking antibiotics that they cannot rely on the birth control
> pill while taking them.
> 
> This is how I got pregnant.
> 


That would be one of my constant issues with doctors, as well - I do all my
own research on the medications I take, but my first question to a doctor
who prescribes me antibiotics is "will this interfere with my birth control
medication?" 
Sadly, most of them say "no, it won't, there's no interference." At that
point, I refuse to go back to that doctor again. This would be a major
reason why I have no primary doctor, as I haven't yet found one who I both
get along with, and who knows basic principles of drug interactions.
And this is after I *ask*. Most of them just have no clue.

It all makes me wonder what the true rate of birth control pill failure is -
since all the statistics have to include the women who take medications that
they are told do not cause a problem, but do.

Andi, constantly disappointed by the doctors who are supposed to know more
than they do. 



--------________--------________--------

From tiamat at tsoft.com  Fri Aug  1 00:34:00 2003
From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:34:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
In-Reply-To: <3F29A57C.8080801@bigdogz.com>
References: <200307312215.h6VMFCj6014016@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <3F29A57C.8080801@bigdogz.com>
Message-ID: <20030731163242.J17887@shell.rawbw.com>

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, Bart Kemper wrote:

> and I'm guessing the military is a bit shy about looking bad for "being
> mean to females" after the LT Flynn debacle (the commissioned officer
> who refused direct written orders to not sleep with an enlisted woman's
> husband, who actually used her rank to tell the enlisted person to shut
> up as an order, and then Flynn was made into the victim, not the Air
> Force enlisted person.)

*jawdrop*

If a man did that, they (hopefully) would hang him up by his
b*lls to dry......

~malfoy, who can still be shocked, apparently
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann



--------________--------________--------

From acswagner at bellsouth.net  Fri Aug  1 00:39:15 2003
From: acswagner at bellsouth.net (acswagner at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:39:15 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Hugo nominees
In-Reply-To: <003f01c357b0$5bcc92a0$6b01a8c0@D6FL1B21>
References: <200307311937.h6VJb5j6012837@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3F296253.28116.119AF5@localhost>

Hi there!

On 31 Jul 2003 at 15:09, Robert Warnicke wrote:

> Jim Parish wrote:
> 
> > Hmm. I haven't been paying attention. Let's see, _Hominids_ is by
> > Sawyer, right? Serialized in _Analog_ or _IASFM_? Read that, wan't
> > very impressed. 
> 
> I wasn't impressed either.  I have liked his other stuff.

I loved Hominids (and Humans for that matter), and can't wait for 
the third one Hybrids to come out at the end of the month.

> No, Kim Stanley Robinson.  I am looking forward to this, he wrote the
> Red/Green/Blue Mars books which I liked.   

Interesting.  I tried Red Planet and couldn't get in it.  It just didn't 
seem to have any spark.

Good thing that there are so many books out there for so many 
different tastes... :)  and we can still agree to like Bujold, too. 

Sasha



--------________--------________--------

From jwreynold at earthlink.net  Fri Aug  1 00:43:29 2003
From: jwreynold at earthlink.net (James Reynolds)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:43:29 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Albacon 2003
Message-ID: <C9E84B0A-C3B0-11D7-8835-000393BDA014@earthlink.net>

	I'm taking the liberty of sending this on, since Herself is the GoH.



From: Jonathan Sternfeld <jsternfe at nycap.rr.com>
Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003  5:41:08  PM US/Eastern
To: members at albacon.org
Subject: [Members] Hotel chosen!

Everyone,

We are proud to announce that we have completed negotiations with our 
hotel for 2003.
We will be holding this year's Albacon at the Roaring Brook Resort and 
Conference Center
located in Lake George, NY, from October 10-12, 2003.  For details on 
the facility you can
visit their website at http://www.roaringbrookranch.com.

The Albacon website will be updated shortly with our hotel rates.

-Sincerely,

Jonathan Sternfeld
Hotel Liaison
Albacon 2003

Jennifer Sternfeld
Chair, Albacon 2003


_______________________________________________
Members mailing list
Members at albacon.org
http://www.albacon.org/mailman/listinfo/members


	*** Jim Reynolds



--------________--------________--------

From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Fri Aug  1 00:44:04 2003
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:44:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
In-Reply-To: <3F29A57C.8080801@bigdogz.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0307311933430.31741-100000@pannier.cfsc.ottaw
 a.on.ca>

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, Bart Kemper wrote:
> Marna writes:
> > As far as I can tell, that's not a very good example, simply because
> > almost everyone I have ever spoken to who would agree that men and
> > women ought to be equally eligible for conscription is a pretty strong
> > supporter of MEN becoming INeligible for conscription.  Which is ALSO
> > equality.
>
> Totally different issues.  One is the actual call up.  The other is
> registration.  Registration for the draft in the US is mandatory for all
> males, regardless of health or other status.  If a US male does not
> register, he cannot get federal student loans, federal jobs, etc. etc.
> Women are not required to do so.  As such, males must bear the burden of
> being eligible for the draft as a price of citizenship, women are not.
>  From a classical (or Heinlienian) perspective, the would mean women are
> not full citizens since they do not bear the same burdens ... unless you
> wish to include the arguement of women being brood mares and that's
> their contribution.

Personal opinion: if there was actually any reason for conscription, then
logically women should be as subject to it as males, and both should be
exempted for reasons of age, health, dependents, etc.

But as Marna implied, I can see no reason for *any* form of conscription
*ever*. As Canada found in two world wars, it's far too divisive. And I
think that's what NOW is saying.

And as for citizenship: surely that is based on your full contribution to
society, your willingness to be an active citizen, your helpfulness to
your city and your neighbours? Either it's free to any adult or it's
everything you do in the civic realm, but just being registered for
the draft is really not all that relevant.

One question that's baffling me: what is the *cost* of the bureaucracy and
record-keeping necessary for this huge draft registration system that
isn't being used? Hasn't anyone suggested that maybe the money could be
better used elsewhere (or for paying down the national debt)? Seems very
odd to me.

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca

"I believe God is a librarian. I believe that literature is holy ... it is that best part of
our souls that we break off and give each other, and God has a special dispensation for it,
angels to guard its making and its preservation." -- Sarah Smith, _Chasing Shakespeares_



--------________--------________--------

From kelts at earthlink.net  Fri Aug  1 00:44:54 2003
From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:44:54 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Blood pressure, was Host mothers
In-Reply-To: <p05200f0fbb4f36a95f8b@[10.0.1.4]>
Message-ID: <002401c357bd$be1839c0$b6432904@earthlink.net>

>  Sara A. wrote:
> >I enjoyed being pregnant, actually.  It was the near-death 
> experience at the end that got to me (eclampsia, seizure, was 
> unconscious for three days).

Beth wrote: 
> Oh. Charming. No wonder they were so quietly freaking out 
> about my blood pressure... (I only got to 180 or 190 over 110...)

Heh, I have to watch out and convince them that really, my blood
pressure is FINE.  Because it tends to get misdiagnosed, as I'm a large
lady.  

Case in point happened Tuesday, at my endocrinologist's.  The nurse
popped my arm into the automated BP cuff.  (hate that, makes it feel
like my arm will Pop Off)  The doctor came in, looked at it, and
exclaimed that my BP was up.  It read 157/91.  I KNEW that was not
normal for me.  I suggested that possibly they were using too small a BP
cuff for me.  Fortunately I have a *good* endocrinologist - she took one
look at the cuff and declared that I was right.  They couldnt get the
large size cuff to work with the automated machine, so she took it
manually.  Yep, 112/72, as usual.  I've read that a very large
percentage of large pregnant women who get diagnosed with high blood
pressure - and end up with c-sections, bp meds, etc - are misdiagnosed
because doctors don't know to check cuff size. 

I'd like to see it more correctly diagnosed - given that the women that
ARE having trouble can be in serious danger, and need the correct
treatment.  And the rest of us do not. 

Laura Gallagher



--------________--------________--------

From acswagner at bellsouth.net  Fri Aug  1 00:49:27 2003
From: acswagner at bellsouth.net (acswagner at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:49:27 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Re:now uninformed doctors
In-Reply-To: <BB4EF24C.F6D5%andi@diezmann.com>
References: <20030731161127.O17887@shell.rawbw.com>
Message-ID: <3F2964B7.21545.1AF250@localhost>

Hi Andi!

Well, it depends on the antibiotic whether or not it interferes with 
birth control.  

I was appalled when I found out that my youngest stepdaughter got 
pregnant when on an antibiotic and the doc hadn't told her that she 
needed alternative protection for the duration.  

On the other hand, on all the prescription leaflets that I have seen 
for antibiotics that do interfere with b/c, this fact was indicated, so if 
people just read those, they should know and take the proper 
action.

I still think it's the doctor's responsibility to inform the patient and 
from the amount of females I met in the U.S over the last 5 years, 
who got pregnant while on antibiotics, not a whole bunch of doctors 
mentions this rather important side effect. :(

Sasha

On 31 Jul 2003 at 16:20, Andi wrote:

> That would be one of my constant issues with doctors, as well - I do all my
> own research on the medications I take, but my first question to a doctor
> who prescribes me antibiotics is "will this interfere with my birth control
> medication?" 
> Sadly, most of them say "no, it won't, there's no interference." At that
> point, I refuse to go back to that doctor again. This would be a major
> reason why I have no primary doctor, as I haven't yet found one who I both
> get along with, and who knows basic principles of drug interactions.
> And this is after I *ask*. Most of them just have no clue.



--------________--------________--------

From jparish at siue.edu  Fri Aug  1 00:51:47 2003
From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:51:47 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Hugo nominees
In-Reply-To: <3F296253.28116.119AF5@localhost>
References: <003f01c357b0$5bcc92a0$6b01a8c0@D6FL1B21>
Message-ID: <3F296543.15173.332D94E@localhost>

Robert Warnicke wrote, of _Years of Rice and Salt_:
> Kim Stanley Robinson.  I am looking forward to this, he wrote
> the Red/Green/Blue Mars books which I liked.   

Sasha replied:
> Interesting.  I tried Red Planet and couldn't get in it.  It just
> didn't seem to have any spark.

I'm of two minds about Robinson. I find his works rather dry, as a rule, 
although I enjoyed the Orange County trilogy. I did get through the 
Mars trilogy, which (as a matter of timing) required me to read the first 
book three times and the second one twice. I have no particular desire 
to reread it, however. _A Short Sharp Shock_ was quite strange, and I 
doubt I understood it properly, but again I have no real need to go back 
to it. (That one, I probably will, eventually.) But I enjoy good alternate 
histories, so I'll give this one a try also.

Jim Parish



--------________--------________--------

From tiamat at tsoft.com  Fri Aug  1 00:53:12 2003
From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:53:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [LMB] Host mothers, was Can't stand it any more. OT:
In-Reply-To: <p05200f0fbb4f36a95f8b@[10.0.1.4]>
References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030731114336.01dc2b10@pop.east.cox.net>
 <200307310344.h6V3iHj6009163@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <5.2.0.9.2.20030731114336.01dc2b10@pop.east.cox.net>
 <5.2.1.1.0.20030731125824.02df44b0@mail.ev1.net>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20030731155041.027e8cb0@pop.mindspring.com>
 <p05200f0fbb4f36a95f8b@[10.0.1.4]>
Message-ID: <20030731164449.J17887@shell.rawbw.com>

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, Elizabeth McCoy wrote:

> At 3:53 PM -0400 7/31/03, Sara A. wrote:
>
> >I enjoyed being pregnant, actually.  It was the near-death
> >experience at the end that got to me (eclampsia, seizure, was
> >unconscious for three days).
>
> Oh. Charming. No wonder they were so quietly freaking out about my blood
> pressure... (I only got to 180 or 190 over 110...)

I had eclampsia, and while I wasn't unconscious for three days, I
did have all that other fun stuff, plus the baby died.  Placental
abruption.  Very, very, very painful.  Take normal labor and
raise it by a factor of ten.  By the time they put me under for
surgery I was more afraid that I WASN'T going to die than I was
that I was.  You lose the capacity for rational thought in that
kind of pain.

> >If I **knew for certain** that I wasn't going to go eclamptic,
> >I might consider it...not as a business, but maybe for a
> >friend.
>
> More the other way. According to what research we did after the
> fact, my chances are 1 in 20 of having it again _with the same
> father_ and 1 in 10 with a different father. I would imagine
> that being a hostmother would be the 1 in 10 chances.

Yep.  Also, what they don't tell you (because our society thinks
Motherhood is a Woman's Highest Calling) is that each incident of
eclampsia raises your chance of having irreversible renal failure
later in life, because it causes kidney damage.  Chances are,
like me, you were catheterized and given magnesium.  Well, this
means your kidneys were very unhappy.

I work in the Kidney Transplant Service at a large hospital.
Most of our female patients who do not have diabetes or
hypertension have kidney failure because they a) were on lithium
for a long time or b) continued getting pregnant even though they
had had episodes of preeclampsia, and had several bouts with it.

I am very glad I had my tubes tied, because in my first
pregnancy, which was terminated, I was already starting to
experience rising blood pressure in the first trimester, and in
my second one, I lost a baby due to placental abruption after
going into eclampsia in the seventh month.

I have no desire to experience end stage renal disease, dialysis,
or anti-rejection drug side effects.  Even if I wanted a child
with all my heart and had the resources to offer it the best life
ever...I'd adopt.

> I don't care to roll that die again, myself.

Good call.  I understand that the desire for A Child Of One's Own
is so strong in some people that they're willing to undergo
eclampsia for it, but it's nothing to do for cold hard cash.

~malfoy
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann



--------________--------________--------

From tiamat at tsoft.com  Fri Aug  1 00:58:19 2003
From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:58:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [LMB] Re: Can't take it any more, now uninformed doctors
In-Reply-To: <BB4EF24C.F6D5%andi@diezmann.com>
References: <BB4EF24C.F6D5%andi@diezmann.com>
Message-ID: <20030731165626.B17887@shell.rawbw.com>

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, Andi wrote:

> On 7/31/03 4:12 PM, "Azalais Malfoy" <tiamat at tsoft.com> wrote:
>
> > And it is absolutely criminal that doctors do not tell patients
> > taking antibiotics that they cannot rely on the birth control
> > pill while taking them.
> >
> > This is how I got pregnant.
>
> That would be one of my constant issues with doctors, as well -
> I do all my own research on the medications I take, but my
> first question to a doctor who prescribes me antibiotics is
> "will this interfere with my birth control medication?"
> Sadly, most of them say "no, it won't, there's no
> interference." At that point, I refuse to go back to that
> doctor again. This would be a major reason why I have no
> primary doctor, as I haven't yet found one who I both get along
> with, and who knows basic principles of drug interactions. And
> this is after I *ask*. Most of them just have no clue.

One doctor told me that it isn't proven by studies, and most of
the evidence is 'anecdotal', so a lot of doctors choose not to
warn.  Other doctors have warned me.

I think this is unbelievably bad practice.  It does a woman and
her partner no harm, whatsoever, to use condoms for the rest of
the month during and after a course of antibiotics, so better
safe than sorry!

~malfoy :)
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann



--------________--------________--------

From sbanker at purdue.edu  Fri Aug  1 01:10:01 2003
From: sbanker at purdue.edu (Samantha Banker)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:10:01 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Re:now uninformed doctors
In-Reply-To: <3F2964B7.21545.1AF250@localhost>
Message-ID: <000001c357c1$40c9d6a0$91c9d380@banker>

Sasha Said: 

> On the other hand, on all the prescription leaflets that I have seen 
> for antibiotics that do interfere with b/c, this fact was 
> indicated, so if 
> people just read those, they should know and take the proper 
> action.

On top of that, the pharmacy put a pink sticker on my dispenser stating
antibiotics and other prescriptions can make my b/c ineffective.  It's right
in front of me every Sunday when I do my medicine for the week.  (I'm on
lots, so it's easier to do it all at once.)  Though I get many of my
prescriptions mail order, I still give those drug names to my pharmacy (I
use only one, if I can help it.) so they can properly monitor for drug
interactions when filling a prescription.  That, and I question both the
doctor and pharmacist about potential side effects, and hold onto the
printout of important info for reference.

---Samantha



--------________--------________--------

From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca  Fri Aug  1 01:33:51 2003
From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James Burbidge)
Date: 31 Jul 2003 20:33:51 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Legal paternity responsibilities (was: Can't stand it
 any more.)
In-Reply-To: <3F296D49.AA7D0245@marna.ca>
References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030731114336.01dc2b10@pop.east.cox.net>
 <200307310344.h6V3iHj6009163@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <5.2.0.9.2.20030731114336.01dc2b10@pop.east.cox.net>
 <5.2.1.1.0.20030731125824.02df44b0@mail.ev1.net>
 <3F296D49.AA7D0245@marna.ca>
Message-ID: <1059698033.1207.79.camel@linux>

On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 15:20, Marna Nightingale wrote:
> Louann Miller wrote:
> > 
> > Re Bart: fwiw, the Louisiana law you describe (dna proves woman's husband
> > not the father, he's liable anyway) is unfair and I would support efforts
> > to repeal it.
> 
> It's all according to where you're standing, I guess: pre-DNA, that
> law both prevented men from claiming during divorce proceedings that
> their children weren't actually theirs and evading child support...
> and kept them from losing their parental rights if the wife made such
> a claim. 
> 

There are other factors as well.

First, many earlier cultures had a broad definition of "fatherhood"
which shaded into the range of adoption[1]: a man who raised a child of
his wife as his own was considered to _be_ the father, period.  It
simplified succession and property issues; and, of course, the actual
model for inheritance wasn't understood.  (This is, BTW, why the two
Gospels with infancy narratives _both_ assert the Virgin Birth _and_
provide a line of descent through Joseph as a Davidid -- the fact that
Joseph raised Jesus as his own made Jesus a Davidid, regardless of
Joseph's biological contribution.)

Secondly, many jurisdictions' motivations aren't worried about the
parents, or even the child, nearly as much as about the public purse. 
Support laws tend to be framed to minimize the chance that the public
purse will be called on to support a child.  Proving that a man is not a
child's father is not nearly as difficult as finding, without a good
candidate in front of one, the child's real father and requiring _him_
to pay up, especially after a period of years.

Thirdly, after a period of years, there's the question of the _child's_
reliance.  This aspect has come up on the list before.

[1] Take a look at Roman adoption parctices, if you want a thoroughly
blurred picture -- it was possible to adopt an adult, which *changed
that adult's _gens_* -- it was in fact used to allow at least one
patrician to stand as a tribune.



--------________--------________--------

From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca  Fri Aug  1 01:34:21 2003
From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James Burbidge)
Date: 31 Jul 2003 20:34:21 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Years of Rice and Salt (was: Hugo nominees)
In-Reply-To: <003f01c357b0$5bcc92a0$6b01a8c0@D6FL1B21>
References: <003f01c357b0$5bcc92a0$6b01a8c0@D6FL1B21>
Message-ID: <1059698063.1078.81.camel@linux>

On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 18:09, Robert Warnicke wrote:
> Jim Parish wrote:
> 
> > Hmm. I haven't been paying attention. Let's see, _Hominids_ is by
> > Sawyer, right? Serialized in _Analog_ or _IASFM_? Read that, wan't
> > very impressed. 
> 
> I wasn't impressed either.  I have liked his other stuff.
> 
> > _Years of Salt and Rice_... Silverberg? 
> 
> No, Kim Stanley Robinson.  I am looking forward to this, he wrote the
> Red/Green/Blue Mars books which I liked.   It looks like an alternative
> universe theme which has the West die out and has the East rise in
> power,   perhaps a little similar in the world building as The Peshawar
> Lancers which I recently read. 
> 

_Years of Rice and Salt_.

It's better than the _Mars_ books (which I thought started out OK and
went downhill).  Nothing at all like Steve's take on oriental alternate
history.  Certainly worth reading, although I'm not sure if it's what I
normally think of as Hugo calibre.

<Minor spoilers included in subsequent paragraphs of really quick
assessment below; if you don't want to know, skip while only the first
paragraph is in front of you.>

It's structured around a set of reincarnations by a small set of people
who began in a Tibetan village (referenced only in backstory) and tend
to be associated in their various lives.  They recall who they are only
between lives, in the bardo.  It turns out in the end that the book is
an example of a genre of literature which has developed during the AH
timeline.

The story begins just after the Black Death wipes out all of Europe with
a nomad in Timur's horde on the edge of Europe and ends in 2002 or so. 
Each story is a self-contained short story or novella.  Some are better
than others, and they have a range of styles.

There are three central characters, the believer-empathic type, the
critical=revolutionary type, and the intellectual-scientific type. 
(There's also a fourth, who's just nasty.)  There may be some others --
the group was originally about eight, and the full list of
names/initials is given only once, late on in the book -- but they're
not as major.

I don't think I buy KSR's model of economic and social change (there are
threads on r.a.sf.w. discussing this -- he has, for example, an isolated
scientific revolution in Samarkand with none of the social and
intellectual contxt that the same changes had in the Europe of OTL, and
he forces a set of late changes to end up with a "modern" world roughly
equivalent to ours at the same time as ours.  In addition, the later
stories tend to get preachy.



--------________--------________--------

From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca  Fri Aug  1 01:44:37 2003
From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James Burbidge)
Date: 31 Jul 2003 20:44:37 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Legal paternity responsibilities (was: Can't
 stand it any more.)
In-Reply-To: <1059698033.1207.79.camel@linux>
References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030731114336.01dc2b10@pop.east.cox.net>
 <200307310344.h6V3iHj6009163@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <5.2.0.9.2.20030731114336.01dc2b10@pop.east.cox.net>
 <5.2.1.1.0.20030731125824.02df44b0@mail.ev1.net>
 <3F296D49.AA7D0245@marna.ca>  <1059698033.1207.79.camel@linux>
Message-ID: <1059698698.1207.87.camel@linux>

On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 20:33, James Burbidge wrote:

<Snippage>

Sorry for forgetting the OT: on this last one.



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Fri Aug  1 01:54:19 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:54:19 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: I can't take it--
In-Reply-To: <1d1.e84c7a6.2c5af250@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030731205254.027ea8d0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 06:29 PM 7/31/03 -0400, you wrote:
>Do you really think it would be more fair for men who were not their fathers
>to be paying for them?


Um, where are you getting **that**?  What I have said that if someone IS 
the father, he's responsible.  Regardless of what he "meant" to do, or says 
he meant, or b/c failure, or whatever.

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Fri Aug  1 02:09:25 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:09:25 -0400
Subject: OT blaming the parents  Re: [LMB] Can't stand it any more.
In-Reply-To: <20030731131621.L17887@shell.rawbw.com>
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030731153344.027d8a60@pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.2.0.9.2.20030731114336.01dc2b10@pop.east.cox.net>
 <200307310344.h6V3iHj6009163@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <5.2.0.9.2.20030731114336.01dc2b10@pop.east.cox.net>
 <5.2.1.1.0.20030731125824.02df44b0@mail.ev1.net>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20030731153344.027d8a60@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030731205436.027e8010@pop.mindspring.com>

At 01:23 PM 7/31/03 -0700, you wrote:
>"If you didn't have the parents and parenting you were entitled
>to, none of your subsequent problems are your own fault, and you
>should be able to get away with any fool thing you do."


I think you know me well enough to know what I think of THAT.

I think that you aren't responsible for what happens while you're not 
personally in control of it.  And, based on my own experience, if your 
upbringing was sufficiently messed up, you should be allowed a grace period 
while you straighten your own head out.   That is, I think what you do 
during that time period shouldn't be held against you later, but no one 
should be required to stick around and put up with your behavior.  People 
who are deeply dysfunctional, **even** the ones who are genuinely and 
determinedly trying to change, tend to be unreasonable time and energy 
sinks among other things.

Even at twenty, I had a fair grasp of the concept that no one was required 
to make up for the lacks in my upbringing, and that no could or was going 
to fix the problem but me.  Whether other people are willing to put up with 
the obnoxiousness that normally attends young adulthood is their call; 
fortunately, Nature has arranged that the friends of twenty-somethings are 
generally other twenty-somethings.

After that, though....if you haven't dealt with your issues, they are now 
YOURS and no one else's.  They are your responsibility.  That's what being 
a grown-up is.

there's a great line in "Divine Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood".  Vivi 
Walker says, "My mother didn't ruin my life.  She almost did.  But all the 
real, long-term damage, I did to myself."

Well, I got "Falling Free" today in the mail, and I also got a copy of 
"Cordelia's Honor".....off to write more of MY novel, and then maybe read...

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From arcangel at io.com  Fri Aug  1 01:33:18 2003
From: arcangel at io.com (Elizabeth McCoy)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:33:18 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Blood pressure, was Host mothers
In-Reply-To: <002401c357bd$be1839c0$b6432904@earthlink.net>
References: <002401c357bd$be1839c0$b6432904@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <p05200f12bb4f64511354@[10.0.1.4]>

At 4:44 PM -0700 7/31/03, Laura Gallagher wrote:
>Beth wrote: 
>> Oh. Charming. No wonder they were so quietly freaking out 
>> about my blood pressure... (I only got to 180 or 190 over 110...)
>
>Heh, I have to watch out and convince them that really, my blood
>pressure is FINE.  Because it tends to get misdiagnosed, as I'm a large
>lady.  

Wheeeee. I will keep _that_ in mind...

With me, no, it probably really was that high. And not responding to
their meds. A little dip, then right back up.  Same after. I hovered
at 154/90 for two weeks, with or without meds (save for one brief
30 point drop which is when they took me off the meds). Then bam,
back to normal.

Mind, what mildly annoys me is that, while the nursery staff were
great at the local hospital (and even better at the non-local one where
the C-section was done), the kids-side OUTSIDE were... Well, when we 
stayed overnight for a no-breathing episode for the minx, they attached 
the oxy monitors to her and all... and didn't have the alarm turned on.

Made me VERY glad I clambered into the crib with her that night. O:p

>I'd like to see it more correctly diagnosed - given that the women that
>ARE having trouble can be in serious danger, and need the correct
>treatment.  And the rest of us do not. 

Amen. NO-ONE needs that whole mess, who doesn't NEED it.

-- 
--Beth, arcangel at io.com / archangel at sjgames.com  In Nomine Line Editor  
http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ 



--------________--------________--------

From arcangel at io.com  Fri Aug  1 01:49:42 2003
From: arcangel at io.com (Elizabeth McCoy)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:49:42 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Host mothers, and UTTERLY off topic OT:
In-Reply-To: <20030731164449.J17887@shell.rawbw.com>
References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030731114336.01dc2b10@pop.east.cox.net>
 <200307310344.h6V3iHj6009163@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <5.2.0.9.2.20030731114336.01dc2b10@pop.east.cox.net>
 <5.2.1.1.0.20030731125824.02df44b0@mail.ev1.net>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20030731155041.027e8cb0@pop.mindspring.com>
 <p05200f0fbb4f36a95f8b@[10.0.1.4]>
 <20030731164449.J17887@shell.rawbw.com>
Message-ID: <p05200f13bb4f663183bb@[10.0.1.4]>

At 4:53 PM -0700 7/31/03, Azalais Malfoy wrote:
>On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, Elizabeth McCoy wrote:
>
>> At 3:53 PM -0400 7/31/03, Sara A. wrote:
>>
>> >I enjoyed being pregnant, actually.  It was the near-death
>> >experience at the end that got to me (eclampsia, seizure, was
>> >unconscious for three days).
>>
>> Oh. Charming. No wonder they were so quietly freaking out about my blood
>> pressure... (I only got to 180 or 190 over 110...)
>
>I had eclampsia, and while I wasn't unconscious for three days, I
>did have all that other fun stuff, plus the baby died.  

Condolences. For better, for worse, condolences. I think that
the best thing about all my experience is that I... was not overly
worried. I mean, I was worried, but I had Good Feelings about it
for the minx.

Maybe it was that it all happened so fast, and I was in shock.

Something else doctors at the time don't mention is that induced
labor is MUCH stronger, contraction-wise. Silly granola people like
me would have liked to know that before suggesting inducing labor...

>[...] By the time they put me under for surgery I was more afraid 
>that I WASN'T going to die than I was that I was.  You lose the 
>capacity for rational thought in that kind of pain.

Between cramps and a need for a root canal that would have had me
making an appointment in a back alley for pliers... I think I know
a little of what you mean.

[...]
>Yep.  Also, what they don't tell you (because our society thinks
>Motherhood is a Woman's Highest Calling) is that each incident of
>eclampsia raises your chance of having irreversible renal failure
>later in life, 

Oh, even MORE charrrrrrrming. Bah.

>because it causes kidney damage.  Chances are,
>like me, you were catheterized and given magnesium.  Well, this
>means your kidneys were very unhappy.

Yup, and yup. That's how they found it for sure. Protein and high
blood pressure. No vision abnormalities of note. No headaches of
note (tension because I had been waking up every hour on the hour
for the past 3-4 nights, but, er, well). Edema up to my knees, but
"a little swelling is normal."

>I work in the Kidney Transplant Service at a large hospital.
>Most of our female patients who do not have diabetes or
>hypertension have kidney failure because they a) were on lithium
>for a long time or b) continued getting pregnant even though they
>had had episodes of preeclampsia, and had several bouts with it.

And people ask me why I have sworn ONLY CHILD. Mm-hm. If there's
another (and I rather doubt it), I'm adopting. The all-day-worst-
in-evening sickness was bad enough; rolling the dice again on 
renal failure.... Ugh.

>I am very glad I had my tubes tied, because in my first
>pregnancy, which was terminated, I was already starting to
>experience rising blood pressure in the first trimester, 

Oh, man. That's SERIOUS. Normally it only starts around the
7th month, which is when they start doing the 2-week visits.
(Which is, I later learn, to catch Pregnancy Induced Hypertension
(aka Toxemia, aka pre-eclampsia and/or full eclampsia)...

>I have no desire to experience end stage renal disease, dialysis,
>or anti-rejection drug side effects.  Even if I wanted a child
>with all my heart and had the resources to offer it the best life
>ever...I'd adopt.

Amen.

>> I don't care to roll that die again, myself.
>
>Good call.  I understand that the desire for A Child Of One's Own
>is so strong in some people that they're willing to undergo
>eclampsia for it, but it's nothing to do for cold hard cash.

Aaaaamen.  The only thing that even mildly tempts me is some weird
genetic urge to have one for _his_ family name to carry on, and,
er, it'd probably be easier to legally hyphenate the current kid's
at that.

Wish they had replicators, though. And live-in nannies by default.
-- 
--Beth, arcangel at io.com / archangel at sjgames.com  In Nomine Line Editor  
http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ 



--------________--------________--------

From jwreynold at earthlink.net  Fri Aug  1 02:44:23 2003
From: jwreynold at earthlink.net (James Reynolds)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:44:23 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: My Mistake!/Albacon 2003
Message-ID: <AD426D97-C3C1-11D7-9DA0-000393BDA014@earthlink.net>

	Ahh!  I completely forgot to put the proper header format on the 
Albacon post!

	Mea culpa!

	***Jim Reynolds



--------________--------________--------

From bkemper at bigdogz.com  Fri Aug  1 02:55:31 2003
From: bkemper at bigdogz.com (Bart Kemper)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:55:31 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: procreation and responsibility
References: <200307312336.h6VNa5j6014720@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3F29C893.4000603@bigdogz.com>

> Generally, when a man says he's being unfairly 
>> taken advantage of by a woman who got pregnant and made him help support 
>> the child, what happened was not that he conscientiously used birth control 
>> and was the victim of circumstances.   What actually happened is that he 
>> was a dumbass and thinks he shouldn't have to bear the consequences.  I 
>> have zero sympathy for that.
>> 
> 
> 
> Back in the dark ages before DNA testing, I was acquainted with a woman who 
> wanted to marry a specific man who was not interested in her.  She told several 
> other women in a group, including me, that she intended to get pregnant and 
> force him to marry her.  He refused to have sex with her, so she looked for a 
> man who resembled him in looks, disappeared from a party with him, and returned 
> several hours later.  A couple of months later she was pregnant, and trying 
> to make *** marry her.  It didn't work.  Also, unfortunately for her, the judge 
> the case came up before's daughter was at the same party and knew the story, 
> so he dismissed her attempt at getting child support.  Small town 
> life--everybody knows everybody else's business, including things you really don't want to 
> know.  But there is an occasional unscrupulous woman out there, and men can 
> be vulnerable, too.
> 
> Mary


In the last few years I know of two different women, who being 
"empowered" to be as much of a jerk as guys are, got a guy drunk that 
had been turning them down, then raped him.  They don't call it 
that..."how can a woman rape a guy"....but the guys didn't even know it 
happened.  (One found out when this female showed pictures of his naked 
body apparently "at the ready position" ... and almost died of 
embarrasment).  My wife and I were the only ones to call it rape, 
everyone else was saying "hey, he just got lucky"...but then again, when 
a guy has sex from the boss most people call it "getting lucky", or if a 
woman abuser her spouse "he's just henpecked" (they have never been on 
the farm to see what "henpecked" is, obviously).

If we're talking about laws, it doesn't matter how common something is, 
its wrong and against the law.  We have laws against treason, and that 
is certainly not common.  There was an Army Times report about 5 years 
ago or so, in the aftermath of the Aberdeen problems, that reported 1 in 
4 women report being sexually harrassed (not specific if on duty or not) 
and 1 in 9 reported having been sexually assaulted or raped (again, not 
specified if on duty or not, or in the military at all).  What was more 
interesting was they asked the questions no one seems to care 
about....what about the guys.  1 in 8 reported having been sexually 
harrassed, 1 in 40 report having been sexually assaulted or raped.  Just 
as rape statistics of females have been theorized to have gone up 
because it has become more acceptable to come forward, I'm guessing its 
is harder for males to come forward, particularly if it is heterosexual.

In an old Mother Jones article, back when I had time to read a lot of 
magazines, it had a feature on spouse/partner abuse, and according to 
the article police and ambulance reports spousal abuse to be 50/50 
between men and women, yet if you say that term most people only picture 
the guy beating the woman.  I worked for BRAVO, the Brooklyn ambulance 
service, and I saw males hurting males, males hurting females, females 
hurting males (I remember this itty bitty spanish woman having bloodied 
the entire face of a big black husband with a pan, with him saying "aw, 
she's jsut mad at work, she loves me"), and females hurting 
females...that latter suprising me at the time on how vicious that was. 
  (Hey, I was young).

So I do not subscribe to the theory that the female gender is a victim 
or any less capable of being good OR bad than the male gender, nor do I 
think they should get a free pass for their decisions because of their 
gender.  The idea of "well, there aren't that many guys that are 
decieved by women" doesn't belie the fact there ARE guys that are 
decieved and the law unjustly enforces the broodmare helpless female 
solution on them.  As to how many...well, I don't know...but you can see 
just from this forum that if a person did come forward there would be 
those that would listen with an open mind to that person's situation and 
others that have a preconcieved notion based on gender and a perception 
of statistical trends....and this is a much more accepting and open 
minded group than most.

If women are broodmares and have no choice in whether to have sex (since 
good upstanding female citizens would never have sex out of wedlock) AND 
whether to use birth control AND whether to have an abortion AND whether 
to keep the baby, sure, then the poor helpless darlin' needs society to 
put the metaphorical shotgun in that mean male's back who had his will 
with this obviously helpless young thing and "make him do the right 
thing."  I don't buy it, any more than I believe a man with an erection 
is incapable of hearing the word "no". (Although *women* with high 
levels of hormones can be excused for their actions.)

The fact there may not be abortions available in all counties doesn't 
examine that there aren't even HOSPITALS in all counties, or even liquor 
stores in all counties.  It sounds so impressive to talk about 
counties...but wow, and awful lot of them are pretty empty.  I don't 
have the statistic, but I'd be more impressed by a directly relevant 
number, such as the amount of the population that is more than 4 hours 
away by car from someplace they can get an abortion...and I picked that 
number since that was how far one of my family member had to go to get 
his prostate checked, certainly a common enough problem that should be 
fairly universally available.  Its also how far my mother in law had to 
drive for her mammograms and all of her post-mastectomy exams.  Even 
with the four hour drive, they could still get the health care they 
needed, but it was inconvient.  If there is a statistic with a metric 
like that to detail the lack of availability I would find it more 
compelling.



--------________--------________--------

From bkemper at bigdogz.com  Fri Aug  1 03:00:03 2003
From: bkemper at bigdogz.com (Bart Kemper)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:00:03 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Betan birthcontrol
References: <200307312336.h6VNa5j6014720@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3F29C9A3.3030505@bigdogz.com>

> It's basically an IUD that releases a local dose of progesterone.
> Local, not systemic, and no estrogen, so doesn't get the side effects of
> the pill/Norplant. 
> 
> Similarities to Betan implant - it's not something you use, it's
> implanted and you forget about it.   It's listed as more than 99%
> effective.  (Hm, legal thought - I wonder if they'd EVER let anybody
> advertise something as 100%.  It's listed as "effective as
> sterilization)  It has a tendency to either really lighten periods, for
> some women, or turn them off altogether for others. 
> 
> (From Barrayar:)
> "I've had my implant since I was fourteen. I had a menstrual period once
> then, I remember. We turn them off till they're needed."

A girlfriend of mine used that method while married.  They have two very 
young kids now.  She has opted for effective method.... no more equipment.



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Fri Aug  1 03:08:25 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 22:08:25 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Female exploiters
Message-ID: <197.1de7822e.2c5b2599@aol.com>

Malfoy writes:

> If a man did that, they (hopefully) would hang him up by his
> b*lls to dry......

Yeah, and they should.  I don't know what they would hang this lady by, but 
surely there's something.  Possibly by her hair--like Absalom, although it was 
his father that did a simlar thing---

Mary, who is no biblical scholar but that story stuck for some reason.



--------________--------________--------

From bkemper at bigdogz.com  Fri Aug  1 03:15:33 2003
From: bkemper at bigdogz.com (Bart Kemper)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:15:33 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Jawdrop
References: <200307312336.h6VNa5j6014720@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3F29CD45.3000909@bigdogz.com>

> On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, Bart Kemper wrote:
> 
> 
>> and I'm guessing the military is a bit shy about looking bad for "being
>> mean to females" after the LT Flynn debacle (the commissioned officer
>> who refused direct written orders to not sleep with an enlisted woman's
>> husband, who actually used her rank to tell the enlisted person to shut
>> up as an order, and then Flynn was made into the victim, not the Air
>> Force enlisted person.)
> 
> 
> *jawdrop*
> 
> If a man did that, they (hopefully) would hang him up by his
> b*lls to dry......
> 
> ~malfoy, who can still be shocked, apparently

You missed the Kelly Flynn flap?  She was a pilot and having sex with an 
enlisted woman's husband.  The officer would even come to the house to 
pick up the guy, with the troop wanting to yell and cuss her out but 
knew could be in trouble for that, but as it was told the officer to 
leave and the officer ignored her.  (This is why fraternization and 
adultery are UCMJ offenses...to deal with this kind of situation where 
rank constrains normal reaction... imagine a Vor lord coming by to pick 
up an Armsman's wife for sex).  The troop went to the chain of 
command...nothing happened.  She went to the next level up, that 
commander (colonel) issued a written counseling statement to cease all 
relations with that person.  The officer refused, she contined to do so 
(now violating frat, adultry, *and* disobeying a direct written order of 
a superior officer in your chain of command, among others), so they 
brought her up on an Article 15...and based on legal counsel, she 
(allegedly...several stories at this point) refused the Article 15 and 
with for the courtmartial, at which point it became a big media event 
and everyone pointed out how the chain of command was coming down on 
this poor helpless young female officer (she was a captain, so at least 
25 years old) when "eveyone else is doing it."

I don't think they brought forward a SINGLE case of a male officer 
having sex with a troop's spouse, having that troop bring it to the 
OFFICIAL attention of the chain of command, and not doing anything about 
it.  I never heard of it, but I've only been in the army for over 20 
years now.  But "guys always look out for guys"...so I guess there were 
no other female officers on post, and that young female enlisted doesn't 
count in this issue.

 From my own experience, males officers caught having sex with enlisted 
wives are bounced out so fast the doors at Central Issue Facility spin, 
usually just by giving them a General Letter of Reprimand, which is in 
their permanent file and kills their career...will NOT be promoted. 
Yeah, some officers screw around...but if you do it with other officers 
or with civilians, its one thing...doing to a troop or (much worse) 
their spouse is a Bad Thing for the unit and tears at the entire 
discipline structure unless the chain of command acts decisively and 
slams that officer into the stone age. The reason for the "career 
killer" technique is there is no appeal and no official proceeding if 
the person doesn't want to fight it...they can chose to fight it and 
bring it to a court, but most take their lumps and leave.  Flynn got an 
official warning....thats a second chance most never get and really 
isn't deserved.  THEN she went against the direct written (and verbal) 
order....and became the victim.  Poor Flynn.



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Fri Aug  1 03:25:54 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 22:25:54 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Children
Message-ID: <1e0.e429535.2c5b29b2@aol.com>

Sara A.  writes:

> Um, where are you getting **that**?  What I have said that if someone IS 
> the father, he's responsible.  Regardless of what he "meant" to do, or says 
> he meant, or b/c failure, or whatever.

I've got no quarrel with that.  I just misunderstood the emphasis you were 
putting on _somebody_ other than the state paying for kids of doubtful 
paternity.  With HIV, hepatitis, etc., around, anyway, any man who doesn't take 
precautions of his own ought to be _out_ of the gene pool, instead of the other way 
around.  

Speaking as a former paralegal, though, the ones that made me want to reach 
for the dull knife were the ones who said "Rape? H*ll no!  That (13-year-old) 
wanted it as bad as I did."

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com  Fri Aug  1 04:16:48 2003
From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:16:48 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Mrs. Bradley mysteries
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030731231559.009f6300@pop3.norton.antivirus>

I've been enjoying these on PBS with Diana Rigg, based on Gladys Mitchell's 
novels and have thought about trying out the novels.  Has anyone read 
them?  Are they any good?

Thanks!

Jerrie



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Fri Aug  1 04:28:38 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:28:38 -0400
Subject: [LMB] comment on "Falling Free"...
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030731231303.027ee400@pop.mindspring.com>

Almost halfway through "Falling Free"  (I read fast)....

Leo reminds me of my father, who was a civil engineer for the Ga D.O.T.  
There was no "do it right or don't do it at all"....just "do it right".  
His reputation for making people meet specs was such that whenever the
contractors found out he was going to be the supervising engineer or a
project, they'd all raise their bids.  If the pit tests he did on the
concrete found that they'd put too much sand in (favored way to cut
corners, but would make the concrete crack later), he'd make them tear it
out and do it over.   If you find yourself driving along I-75, I-85, or
I-575, you may do so in the knowledge that those bridges will **never**
collapse because of faults in construction.  Ragnarok might induce
temperature fluctuations outside their design specifications such that
the concrete might crack and crumble; but until then I expect them to be
there.

Reputedly someone offered $5000 to anyone who could get him fired.  (My
father retired in 1980, to give some perspective).  Nobody took
it...either because nobody was willing to do him harm, or because nobody
would believe any accusations of incompetence.

Anyway, I find it wholly believable that Leo would get involved in the
quaddies' situation.  A certain type of engineer believes far more firmly
in Right than any moralist...

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From marna at marna.ca  Fri Aug  1 04:26:21 2003
From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:26:21 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
References: <200307312215.h6VMFCj6014016@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <3F29A57C.8080801@bigdogz.com>
Message-ID: <3F29DF32.29A7916E@marna.ca>

Bart Kemper wrote:

> > As far as I can tell, that's not a very good example, simply because
> > almost everyone I have ever spoken to who would agree that men and
> > women ought to be equally eligible for conscription is a pretty strong
> > supporter of MEN becoming INeligible for conscription.  Which is ALSO
> > equality.
> >
> 
> Totally different issues.  

Um, nope. Unless you're aware of vast pools of support for mandatory
registration for the draft *among people who are also pro-equality*. 

I'm not aware of any such.  

> One is the actual call up.  The other is
> registration.  Registration for the draft in the US is mandatory for all
> males, regardless of health or other status.  If a US male does not
> register, he cannot get federal student loans, federal jobs, etc. etc.

I know this. 

> Women are not required to do so.  As such, males must bear the burden of
> being eligible for the draft as a price of citizenship, women are not.

I'm still not following why you think that people who wish to see
mandatory registration for the draft go the way of the dodo ought to
simultaneously be working to add more people to the list required to
register for the draft they wish to end.  Or why you consider that the
only REAL pro-equality position. 

Especially since the political climate is such that getting rid of
mandatory registration is liable to be the shorter fight. 

And further, as you point out, currently, nobody is in any actual
danger of being called up. 

Which leads back to the point I was making in the first place: for
people in favour of conscription, it's a low priority. For people,
opposed to it, it is still a low priority, and self-defeating to boot.
 
 
> Yes, I am fully aware groups like NOW state "we are against registration
> at all, therefore we are not being sexist"...but the reality is that the
> males do have to register and the law was already in place makes the
> assertation "we want the same for both genders" rather convenient..and
> weak.  

Oh. That's why. Because you are impugning my motives and those of
several hundred thousand other people most of whom you have not met:
we aren't REALLY opposed to compulsory registration for the draft at
all.  We just say that. 

A person as jealous about his personal honour (apparently with every
reason, you've given every indication of having a lot of it) as you
appear to be should probably be more careful about impugning that of
others. 

Really, Bart, Kiri and I are both over 30 and somewhat disabled, and
on top of that I've got Conscientious Objector pretty much tattooed on
my bum. 

What POSSIBLE personal benefit do you think we're going to derive from
opposing conscription?  Except for fewer draft-dodgers to help smuggle
if it comes to it. 

(I don't mean to speak for you, Twin; I do note that you and i are not
on exactly the same place on the continuum.) 

> Eh...register everyone or register no one.  

OK, just in case up until now I've been typing in Ancient Akkadian: 

No one. 
No one. 
No one. 
No one. 

Not men, not women, not children, not anyone should ever be forced to
serve in an army. 

Yeah, I set priorities: the only one of those I'm currently actually
INVOLVED in working against is child conscription. A person only has
so much time. 

But, whatever. Arguing with people who reserve the right to 'win' by
claiming I'm not being honest about my motives is invariably a waste
of time, I find. 

Marna.



--------________--------________--------

From debsabriel at earthlink.net  Fri Aug  1 01:36:47 2003
From: debsabriel at earthlink.net (Debra Cebulski)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:36:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] List business
Message-ID: <3651023.1059709008720.JavaMail.nobody@skeeter.psp.pas.earth
 link.net>

Quoth Pete:
> One wishes to know:

(1) what makes a discussion of the legal ramifications of fatherhood On Topic?
Not sure

(2) what makes a discussion of diabetes On Topic?
Because Herself stated that Orico was diabetic - the information that he had the disease explains why he failed so rapidly after the destruction of the miracle.  

JMHO

Deb Cebulski



--------________--------________--------

From selene at earthlink.net  Fri Aug  1 04:52:45 2003
From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:52:45 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Can't stand it any more
Message-ID: <3F29E40D.7050601@earthlink.net>

Sara opines:

 >Personally, I'd like to see it be possible to expand the legal 
definition of "parent";
 >it would benefit my weird little family group immensely.  
 >And, incidentally, if more people who aren't the biological parents
 >(same-sex partners of one parent, for example)
 >could gain legal status in a child's life, it would do a lot
 >to take the burden off of people who really **don't** want to be parents.

This, as I see it, is the moral of the story in "La Cage Aux Folles" 
a.k.a. "The Bird Cage."  Albin was very much a loving step-parent to 
Georges' son, more of a "mother"to the lad than his biological mother 
ever had been.  

Susan Fox-Davis/Ma Foxti
selene at earthlink.net 



--------________--------________--------

From rgmolpus at sff.net  Fri Aug  1 05:03:25 2003
From: rgmolpus at sff.net (Richard Molpus)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:03:25 -0500
Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Can't stand it any more.
In-Reply-To: <3F298B59.58264E8A@marna.ca>
Message-ID: <M0E9746E@smtp.sff.net>

P
I
Z
Z
A
!!!!!!!!!!!!!

)i hear the winds of a*o*t*o*n whispering in the trees...(



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Fri Aug  1 05:04:16 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 00:04:16 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
In-Reply-To: <3F29DF32.29A7916E@marna.ca>
References: <200307312215.h6VMFCj6014016@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <3F29A57C.8080801@bigdogz.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030731234752.027df1e0@pop.mindspring.com>

>  As such, males must bear the burden of
> > being eligible for the draft as a price of citizenship, women are not.


Men aren't either; this statement is melodramatic at best.

Registering for the draft isn't a "price of citizenship"; it is illegal not 
to register, but your citizenship can't be taken from you if you don't.  At 
any rate, what other people have said is perfectly true:  No one who 
supports equality supports draft registration.  I certainly don't.

Other than being against it on principle, I have specific personal reasons 
to be against conscription, both historical and future.

Four of my five brothers were in Vietnam.  Drafted one...right after the 
other...

I have one other reason.  He's nine, and his name is Raven.  I have no 
intention of offering him up as a blood sacrifice.

Anyway, you clearly have a big fat misogynistic chip on your shoulder; this 
appears to cause sloppiness of thought.

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com  Fri Aug  1 05:28:17 2003
From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 00:28:17 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Filk plug
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030801002326.009fb490@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Jim Parish modestly mentions:

>A couple of years ago, I wrote a filk, "I'm Going to Set Them Free", to
>the tune of "Takin' It to the Streets", by the Doobie Brothers.

and then plugs an opportunity to hear the original tune.

Jim, you're a superlative Birthday Tixie, but need to learn to toot your 
own horn a bit more.  Iow, when you mention writing a filk [an activity 
heartily to be encouraged], you need to either post the song or at least a 
link thereto.  Filk can add lots of insight and greatly enrich our 
experience of The Author, but only if we have access to it.  And you know 
we definitely want to hear from *you*!

Jerrie, fan of filk in general and listie filk in particular

P. S.  Speaking of which, Joyeuse, where's the link to your really cool 
Bothari song?  Since we're tangentially discussing him again, this might be 
a good time for folks to discover it.



--------________--------________--------

From marna at marna.ca  Fri Aug  1 05:34:51 2003
From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 00:34:51 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
References: <200307312215.h6VMFCj6014016@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <3F29A57C.8080801@bigdogz.com>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20030731234752.027df1e0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3F29EF3E.65FCD339@marna.ca>

"Sara A." wrote:
 
> Anyway, you clearly have a big fat misogynistic chip on your shoulder; this
> appears to cause sloppiness of thought.

Um. I'm pretty spectacularly racked at Bart myself at the moment, for
the exact same post, but... no, not that I've ever noticed, he
doesn't, certainly not in any malicious sort of way. 

Can you rephrase your point in some fashion which *doesn't* involve an
ad hominem?  

Marna.



--------________--------________--------

From tiamat at tsoft.com  Fri Aug  1 05:54:31 2003
From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:54:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OT blaming the parents  Re: [LMB] Can't stand it any more.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030731205436.027e8010@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030731153344.027d8a60@pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.2.0.9.2.20030731114336.01dc2b10@pop.east.cox.net>
 <200307310344.h6V3iHj6009163@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <5.2.0.9.2.20030731114336.01dc2b10@pop.east.cox.net>
 <5.2.1.1.0.20030731125824.02df44b0@mail.ev1.net>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20030731153344.027d8a60@pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20030731205436.027e8010@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20030731215358.W47107@shell.rawbw.com>

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, Sara A. wrote:

> At 01:23 PM 7/31/03 -0700, you wrote:
> >"If you didn't have the parents and parenting you were entitled
> >to, none of your subsequent problems are your own fault, and you
> >should be able to get away with any fool thing you do."
>
> I think you know me well enough to know what I think of THAT.
>
'course I do.  I'm your unseelie.

But I wasn't just talking about you!

~malfoy :)
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann



--------________--------________--------

From shadow_rose at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  1 06:04:39 2003
From: shadow_rose at hotmail.com (Joanie (Azure))
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 22:04:39 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Re: Clones
Message-ID: <BAY1-DAV310z6xCrbq300012212@hotmail.com>

I'm not sure yet if anyone's asked, but could the discussion of parental
rights/responsibilities please be kept in the Vorkosoverse? Please?

--JL/Azz-the-Younger



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Fri Aug  1 06:04:19 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:04:19 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
In-Reply-To: <3F29EF3E.65FCD339@marna.ca>
References: <200307312215.h6VMFCj6014016@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <3F29A57C.8080801@bigdogz.com>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20030731234752.027df1e0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030801004823.027e83d0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 12:34 AM 8/1/03 -0400, you wrote:

>Can you rephrase your point in some fashion which *doesn't* involve an
>ad hominem?

Let's see...not just restricted to the discussion of conscription, but the 
whole other thread as well...

slippery slope:  That expecting men under ordinary circumstances to take 
responsibility for their offspring leads to women lying about birth control 
and rape

appeal to motives in place of support, straw man, non-support:   how we got 
to the argument that somehow the same people who are opposed to 
conscription for everyone are responsible for the fact that it only applies 
to some people.  I'm not quite sure how to characterize that one; what DO 
you call holding someone responsible for something that they not only 
oppose, but didn't do?

At any rate, I was objecting to a set of arguments and their apparent 
motive, not a person.  Too fine a distinction perhaps.

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Fri Aug  1 06:13:18 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:13:18 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
In-Reply-To: <3F29EF3E.65FCD339@marna.ca>
References: <200307312215.h6VMFCj6014016@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <3F29A57C.8080801@bigdogz.com>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20030731234752.027df1e0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030801010731.027eeb10@pop.mindspring.com>

At 12:34 AM 8/1/03 -0400, you wrote:
>Can you rephrase your point in some fashion which *doesn't* involve an
>ad hominem?

To clarify:  The general theme of his remarks seems to be "Women are 
EEEEEVIIIL creatures who have nothing better to do than delude poor 
defenseless men, force them to support **gasp**  THEIR OWN children, don't 
take responsibility for themselves, and are also a bunch of hypocrites 
because they SAY they support equal rights but aren't signing up for the 
draft!  And if they say it's because they don't think anyone should be 
drafted, they're lying!"

That's pretty much the substance of what I was talking about.  I fear my 
rephrasing may not be much of an improvement.

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From mike at dendarii.co.uk  Fri Aug  1 07:15:34 2003
From: mike at dendarii.co.uk (Michael Bernardi)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 06:15:34 BST
Subject: [LMB] Lois McMaster Bujold Mailing List Weekly FAQ FAQ
Message-ID: <32348@dendarii.co.uk>

Last-Modified: 4 July 2003
Version: 2.0.4

Being a Pointer to where to find Answers to Frequently Asked Questions
======================================================================

This document was compiled by Michael Bernardi, to allow subscribers to
the Lois-Bujold mailing list to easily find where the FAQs are. Having
this FAQ posted weekly to the list then allows the posting of the OTHER
FAQs to be every two months and thus reduce list traffic.

Three FAQs have been developed since this list was created in October
1994. The Bio FAQ has been deleted, as all the information previously
given here, can be found at "The Bujold Nexus" in the "Author Info" and
"Book Info" sections. This document was originally created in December 1998.

The FAQs
========

Lois McMaster Bujold Mailing List Administrivia FAQ
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_admin.html
Last Updated: 28 October 2002
Explains how to join and use the Lois-Bujold mailing list, hosted
at http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold

Lois McMaster Bujold Mailing List FAQ 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_lst.html
Last Updated: 18 May 2003
This document attempts to answer Frequently Asked Questions which
occur on the Mailing List about Lois McMaster Bujold and her work.
These are the questions that occur on list regularly like 
"Where can I get "Dreamweaver's Dilemma"?
Now includes the Off-topic Discussions and Excessive Quoting FAQ.

Lois McMaster Bujold List PLOT Frequently Asked Questions
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_faq.html
Last Updated: 30 June 2003
This document attempts to answer Frequently Asked Questions which
occur on the Mailing List about Plot lines that occur in the work
of Lois McMaster Bujold. This includes answers from Lois herself.

The Bujold Nexus: The Lois McMaster Bujold Homepage
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.dendarii.com
Last Updated: 4 July 2003
This is the Official site to find information about Lois McMaster
Bujold on the Web. Lois has provided some information herself, and
other material has come from other fans.

The Bujold Nexus Overflow Site
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Bujold.html
Last Updated: 1 June 2003
This contains all the stuff that isn't really appropriate at the main
site. ie fan fiction, fan art, photos, and filk. Please send details of
any material such material to the address indicated.

Note I am not responsible for the mail server hardware OR software.
Both these are under the control of Mel Harper <mel_at_herald.co.uk>.

Any feedback on this post cheerfully received by Michael Bernardi
<lmb-faq_at_dendarii.com>.
-- 
Michael Bernardi                              mike_at_dendarii.co.uk



--------________--------________--------

From megj at nwlink.com  Fri Aug  1 00:46:46 2003
From: megj at nwlink.com (MegJ)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:46:46 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Listies in Seattle/Tacoma/Ft Lewis WA area
References: <000001c35777$c6f510e0$6402a8c0@double>
Message-ID: <001501c357ed$3141b000$92cb4b43@meg>

Paul, about Danielle:
> Nice to hear you're coming our way up here in the PNW.  When in August and
> how many have contacted you?  There is at least one listee down your way.
> Meg Justus (megj at nwlink.com).

I am, however, going to be out of town from Aug. 17th to the 28th.  I did
email Danielle (and Susan Profit, who contacted me about a possible
gathering), so they know, too.

Megaera



--------________--------________--------

From tiamat at tsoft.com  Fri Aug  1 06:27:55 2003
From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 22:27:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
In-Reply-To: <3F29DF32.29A7916E@marna.ca>
References: <200307312215.h6VMFCj6014016@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <3F29A57C.8080801@bigdogz.com> <3F29DF32.29A7916E@marna.ca>
Message-ID: <20030731221629.R47107@shell.rawbw.com>

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, Marna Nightingale wrote:

> Bart Kemper wrote:
>
> > > As far as I can tell, that's not a very good example, simply because
> > > almost everyone I have ever spoken to who would agree that men and
> > > women ought to be equally eligible for conscription is a pretty strong
> > > supporter of MEN becoming INeligible for conscription.  Which is ALSO
> > > equality.
> >
> > Totally different issues.
>
> Um, nope. Unless you're aware of vast pools of support for mandatory
> registration for the draft *among people who are also pro-equality*.
>
> I'm not aware of any such.

Let me be very clear.  I think that if we are going to have
conscription it should be for both genders.  But I think we
should not have it, unless there is real reason to think we are
going to be fighting to defend our own home turf in the next,
like, week.  And if that happens there's going to be such a rush
of volunteers it won't be necessary, so basically, I think it
should not exist.

I demonstrated against conscription when I was 16 and it WAS an
imminent possibility.

> I'm still not following why you think that people who wish to
> see mandatory registration for the draft go the way of the dodo
> ought to simultaneously be working to add more people to the
> list required to register for the draft they wish to end.  Or
> why you consider that the only REAL pro-equality position.

Well, I can see both sides--if there must be conscription, let us
all share the risk.  But when it comes to organizing on this
issue, I'm organizing to end it.

> Really, Bart, Kiri and I are both over 30 and somewhat
> disabled, and on top of that I've got Conscientious Objector
> pretty much tattooed on my bum.
>
> What POSSIBLE personal benefit do you think we're going to
> derive from opposing conscription?  Except for fewer
> draft-dodgers to help smuggle if it comes to it.

Right on.

> (I don't mean to speak for you, Twin; I do note that you and i
> are not on exactly the same place on the continuum.)

No, we're not.  But both libertarians and pacifists tend to agree
on the topic of conscription even if they don't agree on the
reasons.  I believe there are wars we just have to have.  But I
don't notice any shortage of willing people to fight those wars.
I mean, in WWII there were kids lying about their ages to get in.

If a government can't find enough people who are willing to fight
in a given war...perhaps it's a war that government shouldn't be
having.

I would personally have been more than happy to help get rid of
the Taliban had I been younger and healthier.  And if the tanks
were rolling up Market Street I'd be doing whatever I COULD do.

> > Eh...register everyone or register no one.
>
> OK, just in case up until now I've been typing in Ancient Akkadian:
>
> No one.
> No one.
> No one.
> No one.
>
> Not men, not women, not children, not anyone should ever be forced to
> serve in an army.

I pretty much agree with that, actually.

I do think that IF there is going to be conscription it should be
fair; but I want to stop conscription.

~malfoy :)
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann



--------________--------________--------

From d_reykova at juno.com  Fri Aug  1 06:30:59 2003
From: d_reykova at juno.com (Danielle N. Hart)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 05:30:59 GMT
Subject: [LMB] OT: In defense of Bart/Can't stand it anymore...
Message-ID: <20030801.013146.15272.544599@webmail05.nyc.untd.com>

 Despite the fact that he did sound a little...off in the post, enough us can vouch that the good Captain Kemper does not, in fact, have a "big fat misogynistic chip on his shoulder".

 < SPC Hart nods respectfully to CPT Kemper before getting back down with her M60 > I'd salute, but that might be a *bit* dangerous now... :)

 Speaking as a military person, the actual process of drafting is *not* something we'd like to bring back.  It's much more fun to work with volunteers.

 On the procreation/responsibility, it's not bad in here until the arguments get repeated by the same people, but *please* do not bring that over into the Star Creche - I have the place tied up enough with the on-going saga of in-laws from "warmer climates" for a polite term.  Anyway, the Creche seems to be more of a practical forum than a debate circle.  I think of it as an advice column to which I occasionally contribute.

 Danielle

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!



--------________--------________--------

From d_reykova at juno.com  Fri Aug  1 06:32:51 2003
From: d_reykova at juno.com (Danielle N. Hart)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 05:32:51 GMT
Subject: [LMB] OT: Listies in Seattle/Tacoma/Ft Lewis WA area
Message-ID: <20030801.013351.15272.544614@webmail05.nyc.untd.com>

 I'll be up there from 10 Aug - 30 Aug.

 Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure I'll miss Meg.  I do have to work while I'm up there.

 Anyone (besides Susan, who's already contacted me) who's interested can email me off-list at cmdr_d_reykova at yahoo.com

 Danielle

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Fri Aug  1 06:32:51 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:32:51 -0400
Subject: [LMB] comment on "Falling Free"...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030731231303.027ee400@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030801012324.027df5c0@pop.mindspring.com>

Hmmm.

Exactly what were people interested in, in the way of comments, etc?  It's 
easier to form answers when I know the questions...

And, like I said, I read fast.  So, how I construct the story in my head 
goes by pretty fast, also.

Some of it is problem-solving.  I take the bits I'm given and ask, what 
**has** to happen next? or I should say, how will this play out?  But I 
don't form expectations, generally; I do however take note of the answers 
when they come along.  I notice consistencies; I'm more attentive to 
personality, what you might call motivational consistency, rather than 
continuity, but that's my personal bent.  I really notice when people do 
things that are out of character.  And I notice when something logically 
can't happen, but (like most people, I think) I accept the "rules" of the 
world I'm presented at face value more or less.  Not that I'm noticing 
inconsistencies in what I'm reading now; I was thinking in general.  But 
motive does matter to me, and Leo's view of the situation as "an 
engineering problem after all" does ring true :)

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From tiamat at tsoft.com  Fri Aug  1 06:38:44 2003
From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 22:38:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030801004823.027e83d0@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <200307312215.h6VMFCj6014016@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <3F29A57C.8080801@bigdogz.com>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20030731234752.027df1e0@pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20030801004823.027e83d0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20030731222826.G47107@shell.rawbw.com>

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Sara A. wrote:

> At 12:34 AM 8/1/03 -0400, you wrote:
>
> >Can you rephrase your point in some fashion which *doesn't* involve an
> >ad hominem?
>
> Let's see...not just restricted to the discussion of conscription, but the
> whole other thread as well...
>
> slippery slope:  That expecting men under ordinary circumstances to take
> responsibility for their offspring leads to women lying about birth control
> and rape

I don't think that's what Bart was trying to say.  I've known him
online for a while, though not quite as long as I've known you.
That's really not the way he thinks.

What he did was give examples of situations in which the laws
which are currently on the books were used in ways that a)
probably weren't what the authors of the laws had in mind and b)
were abusive to the unwitting/unwilling sperm donors.

I can also think of ways those laws hurt women and kids, but we
had a pizza call, so I am not going there.

> appeal to motives in place of support, straw man, non-support:
> how we got to the argument that somehow the same people who are
> opposed to conscription for everyone are responsible for the
> fact that it only applies to some people.

I think the position is that all risks of this sort should be
equally shared.  I agree with that.  But I'd rather abolish
conscription for men than extend it to women.

> At any rate, I was objecting to a set of arguments and their
> apparent motive, not a person.  Too fine a distinction perhaps.

Yes, but I've made a very similar set of arguments (with the
caveat that I'm opposed to conscription).  And yet you don't see
me as a misogynist.  I suspect this is 'cause you know me.

I don't think he holds you, or me, or Marna, responsible for the
fact that women are not required to register for the draft.  None
of us is a politician and Marna's not an American.  I will agree
with him that both genders should be treated equally with respect
to conscription.  But I personally wish to extend freedom from
conscription to both genders.

~malfoy :)

**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann



--------________--------________--------

From Lathia at nwlink.com  Fri Aug  1 06:44:44 2003
From: Lathia at nwlink.com (Lathia)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 22:44:44 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Listies in Seattle/Tacoma/Ft Lewis WA area
References: <000001c35777$c6f510e0$6402a8c0@double>
 <001501c357ed$3141b000$92cb4b43@meg>
Message-ID: <005f01c357f0$02903a80$0300a8c0@susan>

I'm here.  Is something going on?  I don't read the list consistantly ( I
have 11191 unread messages) so I may have missed something.

I'll be out of town aug 9 to the 14th tho.

Susan in Bellevue


> Paul, about Danielle:
> > Nice to hear you're coming our way up here in the PNW.  When in August
and
> > how many have contacted you?  There is at least one listee down your
way.
> > Meg Justus (megj at nwlink.com).
>
> I am, however, going to be out of town from Aug. 17th to the 28th.  I did
> email Danielle (and Susan Profit, who contacted me about a possible
> gathering), so they know, too.
>
> Megaera
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>



--------________--------________--------

From d_reykova at juno.com  Fri Aug  1 06:40:17 2003
From: d_reykova at juno.com (Danielle N. Hart)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 05:40:17 GMT
Subject: [LMB] Paladin of Souls - No Spoilers
Message-ID: <20030801.014107.15272.544653@webmail05.nyc.untd.com>

 I just finished tearing through the ARC so it can get shipped back to Nancy tomorrow.  

 I spent a very entertaining six hours in Chalion.  

 You must read this book!!  I think I like it better than Chalion.  I look forward to putting a hardcover of it on my shelf.  I wish I could send a copy to my husband, but he'll be back before it hits paperback (thankfully).  

 I think this one actually has better quotable lines than CoC.

 I think part of the reason I like this one better is the character with shades of Aral.  

 It took me a little bit of time to get into the world again, but once I was in, there was no getting me out until I got to the (very excellent) end of the book.  

 For the people who really liked the Caz/Betriz angle of CoC, you will not be disappointed in this one, either.

 Danielle

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Fri Aug  1 06:47:37 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:47:37 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
In-Reply-To: <20030731222826.G47107@shell.rawbw.com>
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030801004823.027e83d0@pop.mindspring.com>
 <200307312215.h6VMFCj6014016@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <3F29A57C.8080801@bigdogz.com>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20030731234752.027df1e0@pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20030801004823.027e83d0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030801014607.027f0600@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:38 PM 7/31/03 -0700, you wrote:
>I don't think that's what Bart was trying to say.

Maybe so, but it sure sounded that way to me.  **shrug**  I've said what I 
have to say on the subject, and given a clarification because it was asked 
for, though as I say I'm not sure it was an improvement.  I'm not going to 
discuss it any more.

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From Lathia at nwlink.com  Fri Aug  1 06:58:51 2003
From: Lathia at nwlink.com (Lathia)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 22:58:51 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT:birth control
References: <200307310344.h6V3iHj6009163@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <5.2.0.9.2.20030731114336.01dc2b10@pop.east.cox.net>
 <20030731100735.N17887@shell.rawbw.com> <3F298054.3B483D62@marna.ca>
 <20030731140339.F17887@shell.rawbw.com> <3F298B59.58264E8A@marna.ca>
Message-ID: <009201c357f1$fc005180$0300a8c0@susan>

I believe it.  I got my tubes tied because I dreamt for three nights running
that I was pregnant (shortly after I had acquired a new boyfriend).  I
decided my mind or body was trying to tell me something.  Since I didn't
want kids and he didn't want kids ...
>
> ISTR reading that actually, a woman is MORE likely to get pregnant
> from a new male partner -- apparently fresh pheremones trigger a whole
> slew of pro-baby body changes.
>
 and btw he had his taken care of as well later.

Susan kidless in bellevue

(yes the kids have moved out. they left the Bujold books, but took the Tom
Lehrer CDs.  Oh well.)



--------________--------________--------

From zafaran at sff.net  Fri Aug  1 07:06:20 2003
From: zafaran at sff.net (Patricia A. Swan)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 02:06:20 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Blood pressure, was Host mothers
In-Reply-To: <002401c357bd$be1839c0$b6432904@earthlink.net>
References: <p05200f0fbb4f36a95f8b@[10.0.1.4]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030801015331.04438008@pop3.sff.net>

At 04:44 PM 7/31/2003 -0700, Laura Gallagher wrote:

>Heh, I have to watch out and convince them that really, my blood
>pressure is FINE.  Because it tends to get misdiagnosed, as I'm a large
>lady.

{snip bulk of post about pressure artifacts from using the wrong sized 
blood pressure cuff

>Laura Gallagher

And it's not just on the large end of the scale {Hey, Laura, you did 
know that you can use a normal sized cuff around a large lady's 
*forearm* and get a proper pressure reading.}

I had a client I was doing a physical on when I was doing Insurance 
physicals for money, and she commented while taking her history that 
she always showed *extremely* low blood pressure.  When I started to 
take her pressure I found out why.  Her upper arm was smaller than my 
*wrist*.  This woman was a *doctor* and knew nothing about the fact 
that if you're using the wrong sized cuff you get an error in the 
pressure reading.  I asked her if she was the one who took her son to 
the pediatrician's office, and she said yes.  I told her that what she 
really needed to do the next time she was there was to get the 
pediatrician to take her blood pressure with a pedi cuff that was 
actually sized for an arm that small, and find out what her real, true 
pressure was.

Pat in North Carolina


-- 
* Patricia A. Swan     zafaran at eskimo.com              *
* Six Swans Design     http://www.eskimo.com/~zafaran/ *



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Fri Aug  1 08:26:39 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 03:26:39 -0400
Subject: [LMB] comment on "Falling Free"...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030731231303.027ee400@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030801031643.027e86f0@pop.mindspring.com>

Done.

Er.  I'm afraid my immediate reaction was "Oooh, I should throw more monkey 
wrenches into my characters' lives."

I like that there's conflict, but precious little fighting.  And people 
don't just coolly shoot somebody or wallop them over the head, but get 
upset about it and/or do it in a fit of pique.  And that Van Atta's 
character flaws were what did him in.

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From carosue at centurytel.net  Fri Aug  1 08:58:20 2003
From: carosue at centurytel.net (House of Unruly Fish)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:58:20 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Poor Simon's Almanack - Aug 1
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030731002928.00bd1ae8@mail.so.centurytel.net>

This Day In Listory:

2002 - Jim Parish certifies seven select listees as official Geeks. 
Assorted helpful ideas and suggestions about weddings per Danielle's 
request. CoC chat continues to flourish.
2001 - (Digests 4413-5) More and more listees check in with the news they 
have found a copy of CoC.  Word is passed along that Poul Anderson has 
died, at home, from cancer.
2000 - (Digests 3502-6) An astute observation by Pat Mathews, "Except that 
for all the Heinlein characters who pulled their phones out of their 
pockets, not ONE of them ever did so while driving!"  Automotive 
experiences still a big topic today.
1999 - (Digests 2600-2) The Great Spoiler Debate actually derails ACC 
discussion for a while!  Until ACC 9.1 goes up!!
1998 - (Digests 1775-6) Dogs and engineers some more.  Nice long post by 
Pouncer sharing his speculations on the background of the Ceta's bombing 
Vorkosigan Vashnoi. Then a very nice Miles and Elli filk by Amanda Marlowe.
1997 - (Digests 798-9) More on the Vors and Salic law.
1996 - (Digest 325) Chapter 1-3 of Memory posted to the Baen site!
1995 - (Digests 37-8) Sharon Casteel reports Lois's birthday is November 
2.  Robert Woodward reports the August Locus has a 2 page interview with Lois.

Respectfully submitted by,

Susan the Neon Nurse

All the above info collected from:

http://lists.herald.co.uk/old-archives/lois-bujold/

and the New List archives at

<http://lists.herald.co.uk/pipermail/lois-bujold/>http://lists.herald.co.uk/pipermail/lois-bujold/

Additions, corrections or um thingie... may be sent to carosue at 
centurytel.net



--------________--------________--------

From mike at g8ifu.f9.co.uk  Fri Aug  1 09:13:48 2003
From: mike at g8ifu.f9.co.uk (Mike Allen)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:13:48 +0100
Subject: [LMB] Re:OT Can't stand it any more.
Message-ID: <000e01c35804$ed56ad60$2a259fd4@mikealle>

>can't imagine an ongoing relationship where "what if X gets
>pregnant?" hasn't been discussed.  Except a gay or lesbian
>one of course.
I would have thought it *doubly* important for lesbians . And I
do remember a 1970-ish  Analog story about militant femanists
- not yet , but I expect someones working on it .

> (Unless people get in the habit of signing paperwork before
> each one-night stand, which I understand some people do.)
Hopefully specifying that non-use of safe sex techniques will
void their immunities and their partners responsabilities
(Grammar note - this is what I meant about using their for a
hypothetical person of unspecified sex)

>Those seventeen replicators from Escobar ought, in my opinion,
>to have been turned over to loving and financially capable families.

Agreed . The intent seems to have been to "punish" the fathers ,
but the main result was punishing the children .

>> A person who has sex with someone whom he never sees
>>again is not a 'father'.  I can't stop you from using that word,
>>but don't

>Consequences -- the person did NOT have to engage in sex.

But as they say , it takes two to tango , and so many of these
arguements seem to ignore this .

>I would like to call Pizza on this thread please.

It works for me , unless someone has something both new and
on topic .

Mike Allen



--------________--------________--------

From jparish at siue.edu  Fri Aug  1 09:25:33 2003
From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 03:25:33 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Filk plug
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030801002326.009fb490@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <3F29DDAD.15455.12AE3A@localhost>

Marty L. Adkins wrote:

> Jim, <snip> when you mention writing a filk [an
> activity heartily to be encouraged], you need to either post the song
> or at least a link thereto.

Sorry, sorry. I posted it when I wrote it, way back when. It can be found 
in the filk archive of the Nexus. Try
http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Filk/misc3#free .

Jim Parish



--------________--------________--------

From sir-talen at comcast.net  Fri Aug  1 10:41:01 2003
From: sir-talen at comcast.net (Royce Day)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 05:41:01 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Wierd Link of the Day (8/01)
Message-ID: <3F2A35AD.1040200@comcast.net>

Summary: Oh, sure.  You thought being kidnapped by aliens only happens 
to farmers driving their trucks down deserted roads.  For God's sake, 
think of the children!

http://aliensandchildren.org/

-Royce in MD



--------________--------________--------

From jbryant at iee.org  Fri Aug  1 11:03:39 2003
From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:03:39 +0100
Subject: [LMB] EXCESSIVE QUOTES - PIZZA
In-Reply-To: <200307312336.h6VNa3j6014717@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030801110157.00afbb48@pop.luna.co.uk>

I have not pixied anyone for this BUT
there is no need to quote pizza calls
and responses in full.

James - too d*mn busy in run-up to
the TorCon Curry



--------________--------________--------

From mduhon at bluemarble.net  Fri Aug  1 13:43:15 2003
From: mduhon at bluemarble.net (Marvant Duhon)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 07:43:15 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Re:OT Can't stand it any more.
In-Reply-To: <000e01c35804$ed56ad60$2a259fd4@mikealle>
Message-ID: <BB4FCA93.C2A1%mduhon@bluemarble.net>

Pizza. 

> From: "Mike Allen" <mike at g8ifu.f9.co.uk>
> Reply-To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:13:48 +0100
> To: <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
> Subject: [LMB] Re:OT Can't stand it any more.
> 
>> can't imagine an ongoing relationship where "what if X gets
>> pregnant?" hasn't been discussed.  Except a gay or lesbian
>> one of course.
> I would have thought it *doubly* important for lesbians . And I
> do remember a 1970-ish  Analog story about militant femanists
> - not yet , but I expect someones working on it .
> 
>> (Unless people get in the habit of signing paperwork before
>> each one-night stand, which I understand some people do.)
> Hopefully specifying that non-use of safe sex techniques will
> void their immunities and their partners responsabilities
> (Grammar note - this is what I meant about using their for a
> hypothetical person of unspecified sex)
> 
>> Those seventeen replicators from Escobar ought, in my opinion,
>> to have been turned over to loving and financially capable families.
> 
> Agreed . The intent seems to have been to "punish" the fathers ,
> but the main result was punishing the children .
> 
>>> A person who has sex with someone whom he never sees
>>> again is not a 'father'.  I can't stop you from using that word,
>>> but don't
> 
>> Consequences -- the person did NOT have to engage in sex.
> 
> But as they say , it takes two to tango , and so many of these
> arguements seem to ignore this .
> 
>> I would like to call Pizza on this thread please.
> 
> It works for me , unless someone has something both new and
> on topic .
> 
> Mike Allen
> -- 
> Lois-Bujold mailing list
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold



--------________--------________--------

From m.dolbear at lineone.net  Fri Aug  1 14:36:02 2003
From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 14:36:02 +0100
Subject: [LMB] P i z z a  rules KO - Mostly offtopic not all,
 Polarization/flammable    warning, was Can't stand it any more.
Message-ID: <E19iaqq-000FKs-AW@mk-smarthost-4.mail.uk.tiscali.com>

> From: pam <pam at gotcher.us>
> Date: 01 August 2003 00:14
> 
> Since we've had 3 pizza calls, this is not an option.


Since "pizza" has not appeared in any subject line, all such calls were
ineffectual.

"A post which includes a pizza call should be so noted in the subject line,
in addition to the current subject."


Little Egret



--------________--------________--------

From Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com  Fri Aug  1 15:32:16 2003
From: Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com (Tom Vinson)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:32:16 -0500
Subject: [LMB] List behaviour (was Re:OT Can't stand it any more.)
Message-ID: <E00A5AFD6EB5D611834200105A994B3D0F074E@Exchmail>

(Yes I know that's not the off-topic marker--this is related
to the list itself.)
Marna commented:
> Compared to where these threads used to go, this one's been
> pretty darned civil and more than a little interesting, has if
> not stayed on topic at least visited it frequently, and so
> forth.

This whole area of discussion is one that arouses strong feelings
in many people and can easily turn a civilized argument into a
brawl.  I started reading this thread with a bit of trepidation,
but so far have not met with anything that looks like getting out
of hand.  Everyone involved, including those calling pizza, is
at least projecting an image of civility--a welcome change from
the way discussions on this topic develop elsewhere.

I'm glad this topic came up.  I feel I have become better acquainted
with some list members through their comments, as well as becoming
more aware of the complexity of the topic itself.  

I'm also glad the topic is finished so we can get back to the books.

Tom



--------________--------________--------

From swartell at cas.org  Fri Aug  1 15:43:30 2003
From: swartell at cas.org (Sue Wartell)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:43:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] Pizza call on OT: Can't stand it any more.
Message-ID: <200308011443.h71EhUx3018924@srv01.cas.org>

Subject line says it all.



--------________--------________--------

From nlbarber at mac.com  Fri Aug  1 16:36:06 2003
From: nlbarber at mac.com (Nancy L. Barber)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:36:06 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Filk plug
In-Reply-To: <3F29DDAD.15455.12AE3A@localhost>
References: <3F29DDAD.15455.12AE3A@localhost>
Message-ID: <p05111701bb5035ebac28@[10.0.1.2]>

At 3:25 AM -0500 8/1/03, jparish at siue.edu wrote, about "I'm
going to set them free":

>  It can be found
>in the filk archive of the Nexus. Try
>http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Filk/misc3#free .
>

That's
http://www.dendarii.force9.co.uk/Filk/misc3.html#free

    Nancy Barber



--------________--------________--------

From Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com  Fri Aug  1 16:49:14 2003
From: Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com (Tom Vinson)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:49:14 -0500
Subject: [LMB] List abbreviations
Message-ID: <E00A5AFD6EB5D611834200105A994B3D0F0751@Exchmail>

Please remember that the off-topic marker is case-sensitive
and _must_ include the colon:  "OT:".  Filtering
software is very literal.  Double-check the subject line when
replying to a message; some mail programs strip "extra" xx:
sequences when adding "Re:".

Thanks,
Tom



--------________--------________--------

From nancy at dendarii.com  Fri Aug  1 17:01:31 2003
From: nancy at dendarii.com (Nancy Barber)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:01:31 -0400
Subject: [LMB] The Pizza Rule, was Re: List behaviour
In-Reply-To: <E00A5AFD6EB5D611834200105A994B3D0F074E@Exchmail>
References: <E00A5AFD6EB5D611834200105A994B3D0F074E@Exchmail>
Message-ID: <p05111702bb503bda101f@[10.0.1.2]>

>This whole area of discussion is one that arouses strong feelings
>in many people and can easily turn a civilized argument into a
>brawl.  I started reading this thread with a bit of trepidation,
>but so far have not met with anything that looks like getting out
>of hand. ...

Ah, good place to repeat the Pizza Rule, as we try to get
everyone to absorb it into their psyche.  Note that I'm not
trying to reverse the current pizza call, just trying to get
the correct rule noted for next time.

The pizza calls, at the time they started being issued, were
all out of line.  Why? Because, as was noted above, the exchange
had remained courteous.  The rule states:
"A call of "Pizza?" indicates that the caller felt the language
in a post was becoming inflammatory."

Shortly after several pizza calls started, I saw a post which, in
my opinion, "was becoming inflammatory"--but that was a little later.

The rule emphasizes the "becoming inflammatory" with:
"Note that pizza is not to be called on a subject preemptively--the
actual language being used must be getting heated, or loaded so
that a heated exchange seems likely, or headed flameward."

So, calling pizza because "this subject often leads to flames"
is not valid.  Wait until a post crosses the line (and yes, we know
that "the line" is in different places for different people), or
wait until the thread can be called for OT3.

As others noted, a pizza call must also be so noted in the subject
line, and should be snipped to meet the quote guidelines.

See the exact wording in the List FAQ for more details:
http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_lst.html#pizza


-- 
Nancy Barber
Send FAQ comments and suggestions to lmb-faq at dendarii.com



--------________--------________--------

From lqmiller at ev1.net  Fri Aug  1 13:35:24 2003
From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 07:35:24 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: now uninformed doctors
In-Reply-To: <000001c357c1$40c9d6a0$91c9d380@banker>
References: <3F2964B7.21545.1AF250@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030801072426.02dfc850@mail.ev1.net>

At 07:10 PM 7/31/2003 -0500, Samantha Banker wrote:
>.)  Though I get many of my
>prescriptions mail order, I still give those drug names to my pharmacy (I
>use only one, if I can help it.) so they can properly monitor for drug
>interactions when filling a prescription.

That's supposed to be one of the main functions of pharmacists, knowing 
what all the drugs do and checking that a given patient doesn't get kicked 
in the tush by an interaction. The function that justifies requiring them 
to have professional credentials (a bachelor's degree laden with hard 
science that takes five years not four) and paying them a professional salary.

Not being able to pick the right bottle off the shelf and count pills up to 
30. That can be (and in states where it's legal often is) done by a clerk 
who's a high school kid making a fast-food sort of hourly wage. The 
pharmacist is supposed to be an information resource for the patient and 
even for the doctor about how drugs work. Unfortunately too few patients 
know that and too few pharmacists sell themselves that way.

Louann, ex pharmacy clerk and (for one incredibly difficult semester) ex 
pharmacy major.



--------________--------________--------

From rgmolpus at sff.net  Fri Aug  1 18:12:08 2003
From: rgmolpus at sff.net (Richard Molpus)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:12:08 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Pizza call on OT: Can't stand it any more.( redux)
In-Reply-To: <200308011443.h71EhUx3018924@srv01.cas.org>
Message-ID: <M0E9AA8F@smtp.sff.net>

Reissue with a fancy cover and a new introduction by the author of my
initial "PIZZA!!!" call.

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:43:30 -0400 (EDT), Sue Wartell wrote:

>Subject line says it all.
>-- 



--------________--------________--------

From paal at gis.net  Fri Aug  1 18:13:16 2003
From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:13:16 -0400
Subject: [LMB]  The Replicators, was  Can't stand it any more.
References: <000e01c35804$ed56ad60$2a259fd4@mikealle>
Message-ID: <046201c35850$338889c0$0100a8c0@LAPTOP>

-- Paula Lieberman
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Allen" <mike at g8ifu.f9.co.uk>



> >Those seventeen replicators from Escobar ought, in my opinion,
> >to have been turned over to loving and financially capable families.
>
> Agreed . The intent seems to have been to "punish" the fathers ,
> but the main result was punishing the children .
>

When Cordelia said, "All wealth is biological" could that have had a thread
of genetics tied in, though?   The replicators went to the genetic
contributors.  Were there more than 17 conceptions that occurred, which
additional ones, the women or families of the women or friends of them,
chose parenthood of?   How much have we seen of adoption in the Nexus? Mark
genetically is Cordelia's and Aral's son.  Some cultures, full legal
"adoption" with full inheritance rights is limited to biological relatives.
Other cultures allow adoptions with full inheritance rights where there is
no genetic tie.  Still others have inheritance rules where inheritance is
strictly by a hierarchy of genetics, or by married ties and then genetics.
E.g., looking at medieval Europe's trade guilds, the wife of a guild member
inherited the business and assets, absolutely.   Often a former apprentice
of the late guild member would marry the guild member's widow, to become the
JUNIOR partner in the business -- again, the widow inherited and owned the
business outright, and the new husband's only legal rights to it, were what
the widow the new husband married, had written up in the marriage contract.
Inheritance laws of the nobility, applied to the nobility and not the rest
of the population....  fiction based on applying the nobility's inheritances
laws, to non-nobles, is way off from historical accuracy.

Going back further in time,  ancient Roman adoption practices allowed
adoption of non-biological relatives as heirs, not just biological
relatives --  while Octavius/Augustus Caesar was a great-nephew of Julius
Caeser, Julius Caeser legally adopted Octavius as his son and heir.
Various Roman emperors adopted non-relatived to be their heirs, e.g. Marcus
Aurelius was adopted by the preceding emperor as son and heir, to be the
heir to the Imperial throne.   A couple of Claudia J. Edwards' fantasy
novels used that as a minor point, with a character commenting something to
the effect that "the emperor succeeds to the throne and spends most of his
reign looking for a worthy heir to adopt for a successor."

But getting back to the Nexus, the uterine replicators sent to Barrayar,
represented fetuses which weren't to be destroyed, but which the biological
mothers didn't want not only in their lives, but not anywhere on their
planet and culture growing up as reminders of trauma.

How much do we know about the social culture(s) the women came from?   What
are the cultural attitudes towards reproduction, child-rearing, and social
strictures about conception, etc.? What are the prescriptions regarding
selection of genetic father, relationship with the genetic father, rights of
the genetic father, etc.?   What are the social places of women rearing
children of rape, and is this something that could be figured out from the
situation of timing, etc.?

What are the social attitudes regarding adoption, and what are the rules?
Are there requirements that both biological parents be citizens, for
citizenship? Ancient Greece required that citizens be the son of a citizen
and his legal, free-born wife. Sons of slaves or freed slaves, were not
eligible for citizenship, and women who weren't freeborn daughters of
citizens, were ineligible to be legal wives....

Different societies have different values, and different reasons for those
values.  In _Darkover Landfall_ the colony's rules -after- crashlanding
included avoiding saving sickly children and terminating problem
pregnancies, on the basis that the colony was in marginal living conditions,
and couldn't afford the extra effort and care for members who looked
unlikely to be able to contribute more resources to the colony, than they
required in care and attention trying to keep them alive.  The colony needed
the labor and effort of the able-bodied to provide the food and shelter and
clothing and resources for the continuing existence of the colony, and put
effort and resources and attention into children on the basis of the
expectation that after a few short years of infancy and helplesness would
become able-bodied members of the community, contributing more resources of
food, shelter, clothing, etc., to the community, than they consumed, and not
requiring attention and care of members who thereby would be taken away from
production of food, shelter, clothing, fuel, etc.    Prior to arriving on
Darkover, the colonists had had a different set of rules -- considerable
medical care for the non-able bodies, special care for problem pregnancies,
etc.

We haven't seen any stories set when the attitudes about "muties" became set
on Barrayar; the situation there might be much the same as in Darkover
Landfall.   By Miles' time, however, Barrayar's level of medical technology
and wealth and ability to "fix" the defects and damage had enormously
advanced  enormously. The old rules reflected a different reality and
different social order and different society capabilities, and it was past
time for them to be retired and replaced.



--------________--------________--------

From RayLists at quixnet.net  Fri Aug  1 18:22:47 2003
From: RayLists at quixnet.net (Ray)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:22:47 -0400
Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Can't stand it any more.
References: <M0E9746E@smtp.sff.net>
Message-ID: <003201c35851$8725c2e0$6e9f68d1@RDrouill>

It has been mentioned.  Those of us who feel strongly about it failed to
take the bait.

Relax.


Ray


----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Molpus" <rgmolpus at sff.net>
To: <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: OT: Re: [LMB] Can't stand it any more.


> P
> I
> Z
> Z
> A
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> )i hear the winds of a*o*t*o*n whispering in the trees...(
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>



--------________--------________--------

From marna at marna.ca  Fri Aug  1 18:34:06 2003
From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 13:34:06 -0400
Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Can't stand it any more.
References: <M0E9746E@smtp.sff.net>
 <003201c35851$8725c2e0$6e9f68d1@RDrouill>
Message-ID: <3F2AA48C.77E7DA9B@marna.ca>

> > )i hear the winds of a*o*t*o*n whispering in the trees...(

Disemvowling is easier to read than deconsonanting, though I did
figure it out after some staring and head-scratching. 

Ray wrote:
 
> It has been mentioned.  Those of us who feel strongly about it failed to
> take the bait.

Which I thank you for. Given that it will, if we're going to talk
about Lois' writing, come up every so often, I find it most effective
to treat *PASSING* or *PERSONAL* references to ab*rtion or to
particular ab*rtions as asides rather than bait.  

I'd have to be pretty much 100 percent sure that it was being
deliberately brought up *as a topic for debate* before I would invoke
that rule. 

Certainly in the second. If mentioning when it is appropriate to a
discussion I am having that I have in fact had one is going to be
taken as either bait or a discussion for people who weren't there
holding my head to enquire into and judge my motives and actions, I
for one am liable to get pretty cranky. OTOH, I don't expect people to
praise or validate me all over the place for it either.  

Yes, it's a touchy debate. But for some of us, it's also a fact of our
lives and an occasionally relevant part of where we're coming from. 

Marna.



--------________--------________--------

From kat.morrison at juno.com  Fri Aug  1 18:46:24 2003
From: kat.morrison at juno.com (kat.morrison at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:46:24 -0400
Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Can't stand it any more.
Message-ID: <20030801.134624.1884.1.kat.morrison@juno.com>

On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 13:34:06 -0400 Marna Nightingale <marna at marna.ca>
writes:
> people who weren't there
> holding my head to enquire into and judge my motives and actions

        Now, *there's* an image I didn't need.  Various people holding
Marna's head and looking at what's inside.  
Kathleen



--------________--------________--------

From mathews55 at msn.com  Fri Aug  1 18:56:32 2003
From: mathews55 at msn.com (PAT MATHEWS)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:56:32 -0600
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
Message-ID: <BAY4-F364awhQ4AaFUo000183bb@hotmail.com>

>From: Azalais Malfoy <tiamat at tsoft.com>
>I don't think he holds you, or me, or Marna, responsible for the
>fact that women are not required to register for the draft.  None
>of us is a politician and Marna's not an American.  I will agree
>with him that both genders should be treated equally with respect
>to conscription.  But I personally wish to extend freedom from
>conscription to both genders.
>

I also think both genders should be free from any sort of draft: military, 
public service, etc. For the rest of the now-pizza'ed argument, is it any 
news to anyone on this list that both genders have members who are quite 
capable of cheating when it's to their advantage? OR even just from 
carelessness & sloppy thinking? Both genders, all races & nations & 
religions, and many species.

Just my $0.02

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From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Fri Aug  1 19:16:26 2003
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 14:16:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
In-Reply-To: <BAY4-F364awhQ4AaFUo000183bb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0308011409570.31741-100000@pannier.cfsc.ottaw
 a.on.ca>

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, PAT MATHEWS wrote:
> I also think both genders should be free from any sort of draft: military,
> public service, etc.

Up here in Ontario, the provincial government mandates 40 hours of public
service in order for a student to graduate from high school. Frankly, it
is a real pain for many charitable/volunteer agencies -- because of the
paperwork and overhead, when the agency staff are already overworked, and
because of the lack of motivation of the students. I know of one kid who
went to his local library to volunteer; when they thought he was a 40-hour
conscript, they told him they were all full up, but when they realized he
just wanted to help, they welcomed him with open arms and found all sorts
of small stuff where everyone including him was happy to have him around.

IMHO volunteering has to come from the heart or not at all.

> For the rest of the now-pizza'ed argument, is it any
> news to anyone on this list that both genders have members who are quite
> capable of cheating when it's to their advantage? OR even just from
> carelessness & sloppy thinking? Both genders, all races & nations &
> religions, and many species.

I'm sure all of us have encountered such people. I certainly have, of both
genders etc.

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca

"I believe God is a librarian. I believe that literature is holy ... it is that best part of
our souls that we break off and give each other, and God has a special dispensation for it,
angels to guard its making and its preservation." -- Sarah Smith, _Chasing Shakespeares_



--------________--------________--------

From marna at marna.ca  Fri Aug  1 19:23:47 2003
From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 14:23:47 -0400
Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Can't stand it any more.
References: <20030801.134624.1884.1.kat.morrison@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3F2AB030.C3E0524C@marna.ca>

kat.morrison at juno.com wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 13:34:06 -0400 Marna Nightingale <marna at marna.ca>
> writes:
> > people who weren't there
> > holding my head to enquire into and judge my motives and actions
> 
>         Now, *there's* an image I didn't need.  Various people holding
> Marna's head and looking at what's inside.

Literacy is a fine thing, and next week I must get around to learning
to punctuate. 

Marna.



--------________--------________--------

From bo at dendarii.com  Fri Aug  1 19:26:05 2003
From: bo at dendarii.com (Bo Johansson)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:26:05 +0200
Subject: [LMB] more PoS cover quotes
References: <003b01c35775$d8c0a5c0$0500000a@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <007801c3585a$5ed58ba0$946c72d5@05we7eawlrqm6us>

On Thursday, July 31, 2003 5:10 PM [GMT+1 (or +2)],
Lois McMaster Bujold wrote:
>
>     We sent an ARC to Jennifer Crusie, an author I'd only
> discovered this past spring [...]  Favorite so
> far is _Faking it_, though I also liked _Welcome to
> Temptation_ and _Fast Women_.

ObBujoldComplainingAboutBritishCovers: The covers for the UK
editions of _Faking it_ and _Fast Women_ are very good. (The
contents too...)

// Bo Johansson



--------________--------________--------

From Pouncer at aol.com  Fri Aug  1 19:58:57 2003
From: Pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 14:58:57 EDT
Subject: [LMB] filk:  tto: "Allentown jail"
Message-ID: <55.453e8247.2c5c1271@aol.com>

Help finish this, anybody? 

(Parenthetical moans to be accomplished in
the style of "The Seekers", rather than other
artists such as, say, "The Kingston Trio" 


They locked up my partner in Escobar's jail,
    (ooh, oh-huh-oh)
It took all my spare cash to put up his bail
    (ooh, oh-huh-oh)
The courthouse has sealed up his bugs and machines
    bugs and mach-shEEee,-ines
Now we're out at midnight, preparing to take flight
and bring, and bring,  his queens.

The queens from their Escobar jail
His bugs wait in Escobar's jail !

We'll take notes and files and gene sequencers too,
    (ooh, oh-huh-oh)
More than that mister: th'whole specimen zoo.
    (ooh, oh-huh-oh)
The courthouse has put them all under court seal,
    under court seal,
Now we're out at midnight, preparing to take flight
and break in, break in and steal.

The queens from their Escobar jail
His bugs wait in Escobar's jail !

(Actually, I've thought for a long time the original
lyrics to this tune were a bit unfinished, as well.) 



--------________--------________--------

From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com  Fri Aug  1 20:47:33 2003
From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 15:47:33 -0400
Subject: [LMB] filk plug
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030801154051.00a0b650@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Actually, Jim, the correct URL for your clever and delightful song is 
http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Filk/misc3.html#free , which provides a wonderful 
opportunity to plug the filk archives in general.  The URL is 
http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Filk/ , and there are links to lots of wonderful 
things by incredibly talented people, many of whom are on this list, and 
the rest of whom should be.

Jerrie, very grateful that it's All Mike Bernardi's Fault



--------________--------________--------

From icewolf010 at earthlink.net  Fri Aug  1 21:59:07 2003
From: icewolf010 at earthlink.net (Icewolf)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:59:07 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Memory...and timing.
References: <BB462B16.223B5%john@hypergeek.net>
Message-ID: <00c701c3586f$c070d4e0$e20d1f43@Ivanova>

John Kilpatrick wrote ( week ago, sorry :/)

> I'm curious...does anyone else a similar experience where a book (and
> hopefully a book by Ms. Bujold) was just exactly right for a certain point
> in your life?

Oh, yes. Most definitely. About three years ago my life got yanked out from
under me when the man I was living with emailed me at work in the middle of
the day to announce he wanted to break up. I went home and read Memory from
the beginning. This is something, because I usually skip to the ice-water
bath when I reread it. That beginning, with Miles fighting with Ellie and
then getting fired is torturous for me. Not because it's badly written, I'm
just not that big a car wreck spectator. :)

I went straight from that into Komarr, and that was even more pertinent.
(Hey, there's a reason Marna declared me "100% Schmuck Free" at that year's
Arisia. :)

Yep. Lois has come in mighty handy in the reading as coping mechanism
department.

-Lyn



--------________--------________--------

From icewolf010 at earthlink.net  Fri Aug  1 22:03:59 2003
From: icewolf010 at earthlink.net (Icewolf)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:03:59 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Chalion discussion
References: <0D13BA08-BF78-11D7-876C-0003936731E6@drizzle.com>
Message-ID: <00e601c35870$6f125640$e20d1f43@Ivanova>

Nearly a week ago (see, I'm getting better) Peter wrote:

 > Someone there noticed something that at least I had missed: When we
> (and Cazaril) first encounter Ista, she is lying on the floor in the
family
> chapel and then she complains that the Gods do not listen to her. She
> had of  course been praying, but for what? Probably that the Gods should
lift
> the curse from her children. And who has just arrived? Cazaril...

Heh. Sounds like a case of "Be Careful What You Wish For" to me...

-Lyn



--------________--------________--------

From icewolf010 at earthlink.net  Fri Aug  1 22:10:17 2003
From: icewolf010 at earthlink.net (Icewolf)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:10:17 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Chalion discussion
References: <20030726.200904.2556.0.ginni.berger@juno.com>
Message-ID: <00f901c35871$4fe544c0$e20d1f43@Ivanova>

Ginilee Berger wrote, on the subject of Caz being the answer to Ista's
prayers:

> Yeah, but Caz was a slave for most of that time. ...

Ginilee wrote a few more things, but I thought I'd trim for the Quote Pixie
(*wave*).

Towards the end of the book, I believe, Caz starts wondering how long he's
been doing the will of the Gods. Since arrived in the Provincara's
household? Since the horse chinked and he was accidentally given that gold
piece? Since he found the merchant's body? Since he nearly died the first
time on the bow of the slave boat? Since he was captured and not ransomed?
Caz himself, I think, thinks particularly on the night he renounced his
primary allegiance to the Son of Autumn.

The gods tend to have a longer planning range than we do. :) At least in
Chalion.

-Lyn



--------________--------________--------

From icewolf010 at earthlink.net  Fri Aug  1 22:15:09 2003
From: icewolf010 at earthlink.net (Icewolf)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:15:09 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Yet another Curse of Chalion thought
References: <3a3e0703a3f475.3a3f4753a3e070@icomcast.net>
Message-ID: <010c01c35871$fdbb5fd0$e20d1f43@Ivanova>

Mark Eddy wrote a lovely message 5 days ago hypothesizing about what
geographic area Chalion is based on.

I think if you go turn a standard map of  Western Europe upside down, you've
got it, with Chalion as Spain, Ibra to the south as France, the Roknari as
the various conquerers of North Africa, etc. However, I shall be sitting
down with your message and my Medieval European History book tonight to play
with it some more. :)

-Lyn, who should be showering to get ready to go stage manage why do you
ask?



--------________--------________--------

From mike at g8ifu.f9.co.uk  Fri Aug  1 12:46:50 2003
From: mike at g8ifu.f9.co.uk (Mike Allen)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:46:50 +0100
Subject: [LMB] Bothari/Adoption
Message-ID: <000201c35875$24d40b00$687538d4@mikealle>

>He took Elena Sr. to his cabin and cared for her, imagining that
>she was conscious and they were in a loving relationship.  It was
>only when they got back to Barrayar and he got therapy and his
>meds straightened out that he realized what he had done .

The Barrayan "therapy" consisted mainly of removing all memories
of this period to protect Sergs reputation . Bothari managed to
partially defeat this but AFAIK the memories he retained were false
memories and his actions based on them . His refusal to defend
himself against Elena sr should be seen as a reluctance to harm
her not as acceptance of a punishment he probably didn't know
he deserved .

Mike Allen



--------________--------________--------

From d_reykova at juno.com  Fri Aug  1 23:39:02 2003
From: d_reykova at juno.com (Danielle N. Hart)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 22:39:02 GMT
Subject: [LMB] Memory...and timing.
Message-ID: <20030801.183918.15272.557710@webmail05.nyc.untd.com>

>>Yep. Lois has come in mighty handy in the reading as coping mechanism
department.>>

 Oh yes.

 Towards the end of Chalion, we have *our* (mine and Brian's) scene: After they have had Cazaril shaved and dragged before his royina and roya to be rewarded, Caz protests that it's unfair for Betriz to be given to him as a reward.  Iselle responds that she is rewarding Betriz's loyalty with Cazaril...

****
CoC, HC, p. 434

 "Yes, well, she didn't ask for them.  She asked for you.  No accounting for taste, eh?" said Bergon, eyes alight.
 .... "There are no more worthy lords than you in Chalion."  Her grip, in his, tightened.
****

 The scene that endeared the book to both of us.

 Danielle

________________________________________________________________
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--------________--------________--------

From ginni.berger at juno.com  Fri Aug  1 02:12:36 2003
From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:12:36 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Hugo nominees
Message-ID: <20030801.193923.1280.0.ginni.berger@juno.com>

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:51:47 -0500 jparish at siue.edu writes:
I'm of two minds about Robinson. I find his works rather dry, as a 
> rule, 
> although I enjoyed the Orange County trilogy. 

> Jim Parish


Then you obviously haven't read his Callahan books. They're a cross
between Piers Anthony, Douglas Adams, and Terry Pratchett. I nearly die
laughing when I'm reading them. Well, read them and you'll see what I
mean. One of the funniest in the series is "Lady Slings the Booze" and
about Lady Sally's most unusual brothel in New York City, where a lot of
strange things happen. Same with the Callahan's Crosstime Saloon. There's
aliens, Tesla turns out to never have died, he was rejuved by Callahan
and Lady Sally for reasons I won't reveal since it would  ruin the
stories. I love them, and recommend them to anyone needing a good laugh.

Ginnilee
Lady Lavender of Teal



--------________--------________--------

From naomi_kestrel at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  2 00:50:34 2003
From: naomi_kestrel at yahoo.com (naomi lloyd)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:50:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [LMB] Re: (LMB) Weird link of the day 8/01
Message-ID: <20030801235034.99375.qmail@web80503.mail.yahoo.com>

Royce in MD blessed us with:
>>>For God's sake, think of the children!<<


Thanks. I think my DH needs an anti-thought control
helmet for work.
Naomi-kestrel

__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com



--------________--------________--------

From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Sat Aug  2 00:53:15 2003
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:53:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] OT: Hugo nominees
In-Reply-To: <20030801.193923.1280.0.ginni.berger@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0308011945300.31741-100000@pannier.cfsc.ottaw
 a.on.ca>

> On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:51:47 -0500 jparish at siue.edu writes:
> > I'm of two minds about Robinson. I find his works rather dry, as a
> > rule, although I enjoyed the Orange County trilogy.

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, ginnilee p berger wrote:
> Then you obviously haven't read his Callahan books. They're a cross
> between Piers Anthony, Douglas Adams, and Terry Pratchett.

Sorry, wrong Robinson.

Jim means Kim Stanley Robinson, whereas you mean Spider Robinson (Spider
BTW is toastmaster at TorCon, and I am very much looking forward to that).

Yup, Spider is extremely funny although he can be serious as well (e.g.
the Stardance series).

Stan Robinson has written one very amusing book (with serious overtones):
_Escape from Kathmandu_. Recommended, as are all his books. I think my
favourites are still the novella The Blind Geometer and the short story
The Lucky Strike.

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca

"I believe God is a librarian. I believe that literature is holy ... it is that best part of
our souls that we break off and give each other, and God has a special dispensation for it,
angels to guard its making and its preservation." -- Sarah Smith, _Chasing Shakespeares_



--------________--------________--------

From carbonelle at juno.com  Sat Aug  2 00:58:38 2003
From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 23:58:38 GMT
Subject: [LMB] Re: Travel, books, clones & conscription, pretty much all OT:
Message-ID: <20030801.165850.516.634981@webmail04.lax.untd.com>

On Lois' Ozzie guest: For the record, those of you who 
travel in the US, in nearly every city, no matter how 
podunk, you can find a friendly neighborhood business 
(or chain store) wh. will sell you (cheaply) a sturdy 
cardboard box & throw in free packing tape so that you 
may send your book purchases homwards by slow boat. 
Buy at will!

To my fellow 'Murkan's: Your book purchases are ALL
DUTY FREE! (But in places like the UK--and probably
Australia & Canada--though, not, God Bless them, Siena,
Italy--!) you'll just have to spring for another suitcase.

On The Golden Age by John C. Wright - loved the book (has
the most amusing SFnal legal scene ever written IMHO) -
but then am a fan of both AE Van Vogt and Jack Vance wh. his
style somewhat resembles. Wright does a lovely job of world 
building (the setting is as much a character as the protagonist) 
but do be warned--this is part one of a three part story (part 
2, also v. good, is out) wh. is not yet complete. Nice comment 
by the hero's wife when she's warned "if you tell him the
truth, he won't love you anymore." to the effect that, while 
she can't control what her husband feels, she *can* control 
whether or not she's the sort of person an honorable person
could love & respect. Looking forward with to book 3 w/
bated breath (WJW!) 

On Clones: D--n shame about the pizza call. Can we get 
a pass for the part of that dealt with child-support-
for-CLONES section of the discussion? Because I for one 
was fascinated by the legal ramifications (and I agree 
w/Mary: Common sense isn't in it, if only because I know 
too many lawyers.. and village idiots :-). To make it more 
general (and thence perhaps, less dry tinder-stuff)what sort 
of laws *in general* do we think will need passing if Real 
Life (TM) Nexus-style cloning arrives?

On conscription: The set of all women and the set of
all feminists do overlap but are not equivalent. (Not
that plenty of soi-disant feminists haven't been willing 
to aver that I am, X-chromosomes & v-g-ina aside, not a 
Real Woman.**)Just something to remember when calling Bart 
misogynistic. Or to put it another way, I'm certainly not 
four-square in favor of equality ala 
NO[of increasingly fewer]W, but I oppose the draft. 

Kirsten Edwards
(* First hand knowledge, naturally)
(**anti-g-n c-ntr-l, anti-PC, not *sufficiently* pro-choice 
etc.)

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!



--------________--------________--------

From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com  Sat Aug  2 01:04:11 2003
From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 17:04:11 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Filk plug
Message-ID: <Law11-F1218nT1MfdN400021447@hotmail.com>

Nancy L. Barber corrected:

>At 3:25 AM -0500 8/1/03, jparish at siue.edu wrote, about "I'm
going to set them free":<

>>  It can be found in the filk archive of the Nexus. Try
>http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Filk/misc3#free .<<

>That's http://www.dendarii.force9.co.uk/Filk/misc3.html#free<

Thanks, Nancy! Jim, I really enjoyed singing this filk (to myself, of course 
<g>)! Your lyrics were very touching. You really managed to capture all of 
the complex situations Mark found himself in. Well done!

Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail



--------________--------________--------

From arakasi1 at earthlink.net  Sat Aug  2 01:03:59 2003
From: arakasi1 at earthlink.net (Ned Adams)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:03:59 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Hugo nominees
References: <20030801.193923.1280.0.ginni.berger@juno.com>
Message-ID: <04a601c35889$93107900$210110ac@homeportal.2wire.net>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ginnilee p berger" <ginni.berger at juno.com>



> On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:51:47 -0500 jparish at siue.edu writes:
> I'm of two minds about Robinson. I find his works rather dry, as a
> > rule,
> > although I enjoyed the Orange County trilogy.
>
> > Jim Parish
>
>
> Then you obviously haven't read his Callahan books. They're a cross
>

Ginnilee

Jim was talking about Kim Stanly Robinson, not Spider.  Except for the fact
that both write science fiction using the english language, there really
isn't much similarity in their writing styles.

Ned

Disclaimer - I've only read the RGB Mars trilogy by KSRobinson, so I may be
mistaken here)



--------________--------________--------

From lqmiller at ev1.net  Sat Aug  2 00:55:30 2003
From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 18:55:30 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Hugo nominees
In-Reply-To: <20030801.193923.1280.0.ginni.berger@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030801185453.02e06ec0@mail.ev1.net>

At 09:12 PM 7/31/2003 -0400, ginnilee p berger wrote:

>On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:51:47 -0500 jparish at siue.edu writes:
>I'm of two minds about Robinson. I find his works rather dry, as a
> > rule,
> > although I enjoyed the Orange County trilogy.
>
> > Jim Parish
>
>
>Then you obviously haven't read his Callahan books. They're a cross
>between Piers Anthony, Douglas Adams, and Terry Pratchett.

Kim Stanley Robinson vs. Spider Robinson. KSR is the Mars one.

Louann



--------________--------________--------

From lqmiller at ev1.net  Sat Aug  2 01:05:51 2003
From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 19:05:51 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Bothari/Adoption
In-Reply-To: <000201c35875$24d40b00$687538d4@mikealle>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030801185553.02df96e0@mail.ev1.net>

At 12:46 PM 8/1/2003 +0100, Mike Allen wrote:
> >He took Elena Sr. to his cabin and cared for her, imagining that
> >she was conscious and they were in a loving relationship.  It was
> >only when they got back to Barrayar and he got therapy and his
> >meds straightened out that he realized what he had done .
>
>The Barrayan "therapy" consisted mainly of removing all memories
>of this period to protect Sergs reputation .
True.

>Bothari managed to
>partially defeat this but AFAIK the memories he retained were false
>memories and his actions based on them.

I'm not at all sure of that. Courtesy of Baen Webscriptions, last-but-one 
chapter of SoH, on the way to decant little Elena:


She studied his profile covertly, her mind ranging over the array of 
difficulties he would be taking back to the hired village woman at 
Vorkosigan Surleau this day, gravely doubtful of his ability to handle 
them. She risked probing a little.

"Have you thought about ... what you're going to tell her about her mother, 
as she grows older? She's bound to want to know eventually."

He nodded, was silent, then spoke. "Going to tell her she's dead. Tell her 
we were married. It's not a good thing to be a bastard here." His hand 
tightened on the controls. "So she won't be. No one must call her that."

"I see." Good luck, she thought. She turned to a lighter question. "Do you 
know what you're going to name her?"

"Elena."

"That's pretty. Elena Bothari."

"It was her mother's name."

Cordelia was surprised into an unguarded remark. "I thought you couldn't 
remember Escobar!"

A little time went by, and he said, "You can beat the memory drugs, some, 
if you know how."

Vorkosigan raised his eyebrows. Evidently this was new to him, too. "How do 
you do that, Sergeant?" he asked, carefully neutral.

"Someone I knew once told me . . . You write down what you want to 
remember, and think about it. Then hide it -- the way we used to hide your 
secret files from Radnov, sir -- they never figured it out either. Then 
first thing when you get back, before your stomach even settles, take it 
out and look at it. If you can remember one thing on the list, you can 
usually get the rest, before they come back again. Then do the same thing 
again. And again. It helps if you have an, an object, too."

"Did you have, ah, an object?" asked Vorkosigan, clearly fascinated.

"Piece of hair." He fell silent again for a long time, then volunteered, 
"She had long black hair. It smelled nice."

Cordelia, boggled and bemused by the implications of his story, settled 
back and found something to look at out the canopy. Vorkosigan looked 
faintly illuminated, like a man who'd found a key piece in a difficult puzzle.

>  His refusal to defend
>himself against Elena sr should be seen as a reluctance to harm
>her not as acceptance of a punishment he probably didn't know
>he deserved .

He didn't remember everything, but he remembered enough. Textevd again, 
chapter six of "Barrayar", Bothari on his fragmentary memories:


[Cordelia] "Tell me about the others, then."

His voice fell to a whisper. "I remember Elena. So pretty. I only have two 
pictures in my head, of Elena. One, I remember Vorrutyer making me . . . 
no, I don't want to talk about that one." He stopped for a full minute, 
rocking gently, forward and back. "The other . . . we were in my cabin. She 
and I. She was my wife. . . ." His voice faltered. "She wasn't my wife, was 
she." It wasn't even a question.

"No. But you know that."

"But I remember believing she was." His hands pressed his forehead, and 
rubbed his neck, hard and futilely.

"She was a prisoner of war," said Cordelia. "Her beauty drew Vorrutyer's 
and Serg's attention, and they made a project of tormenting her, for no 
reason --not for her military intelligence, not even for political 
terrorism -- just for their gratification. She was raped. But you know 
that, too. On some level."

"Yes," he whispered.

"Taking away her contraceptive implant and allowing -- or compelling -- you 
to impregnate her was part of their idea of sadism. The first part. They 
did not, thank God, live long enough to get to the second part."

His legs had drawn up, his long arms wrapped around them in a tight, tight 
ball. His breathing was fast and shallow, panting. His face was 
freezer-burn white, sheened with cold sweat.

---

Louann



--------________--------________--------

From ginni.berger at juno.com  Sat Aug  2 01:10:47 2003
From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:10:47 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
Message-ID: <20030801.201047.1280.1.ginni.berger@juno.com>

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:26:21 -0400 Marna Nightingale <marna at marna.ca>
writes:
> Bart Kemper wrote:
> > 
> > Women are not required to do so.  As such, males must bear the 
> burden of being eligible for the draft as a price of citizenship, women
are 
> not.

Women have never been conscripted in any army throughout history, being
considered "the weaker sex" by men who believe, for the most part, that
women should never have any part of war. One reason is that they held the
homefires and kept them burning. Another was that SOMEONE had to take
care of the children, and protect the children. Women also defended the
homestead, if they were able to- look in your history books. Not to
mention that there are several scifi/fantasy authors point out that as
the women's responsibility.


> > Yes, I am fully aware groups like NOW state "we are against 
registration
> > at all, therefore we are not being sexist"...but the reality is that
the
> > males do have to register and the law was already in place makes 
> the assertation "we want the same for both genders" rather 
> convenient..and weak.  

> Really, Bart, Kiri and I are both over 30 and somewhat disabled, 
> and on top of that I've got Conscientious Objector pretty much tattooed

> on my bum. 

Hear, hear! I'm considered partially disabled because I have fibromyalgia
and have hurt my left wrist so many times, as well as rotator cuff
syndrome, and a wonky knee. And I've never been fond of someone telling
me that I have to think this way- yes, they need people to fight, but
there's a lot of people who've gone into the military that I agree it's
not so likely that men who are registered will be called up. In the case
of nuclear war, we're all in equal danger, not the people living in the
country where the war is going on. Not that I think it will come to
nuclear war, but I am very aware of the danger of anything nuclear,
considering I lived a mile as the crow flies from Diablo Canyon Nuclear
Power Plant, which is situated on top of three earthquake faults(Reagan
was governor when it was approved, and then they managed to build one
side backwards)! That law has been in place for a lot longer than when
women finally got the vote, so that assertion is not so weak, since women
have been considered weaker for eons, so stuff convenience! 

> > Eh...register everyone or register no one.  
> 
> OK, just in case up until now I've been typing in Ancient Akkadian: 
> 
> 
> No one. 
> No one. 
> No one. 
> No one. 
> 
> Not men, not women, not children, not anyone should ever be forced 
> to serve in an army. 
> > 
> Marna.
> -- 

I agree with Marna, and whoever wants to make children serve in the army
is sick, sick, sick. There are lots of boys who lied about their age so
they could get into the armed services at a younger age. I think they're
wrong to do that, but I'm not their parents. And registering no one would
harm rather than help. Many women are now in the armed services, and it's
their choice. The services wouldn't have taken them if they weren't in
the best of health, far better than mine. And there's  still an ongoing
debate about whether or not women should be allowed into combat, as women
have been following armies for eons, as nurses, doctors and prostitutes-
and don't jump all over me for mentioning that, since it's a long-time
tradition. After all, prostitution was the first profession.....


Ginnilee
Lady Lavender of Teal



--------________--------________--------

From jparish at siue.edu  Sat Aug  2 01:22:20 2003
From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 19:22:20 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Spider Robinson (was Hugo nominees)
In-Reply-To: <20030801.193923.1280.0.ginni.berger@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3F2ABDEC.18286.37EA25E@localhost>

ginnilee p berger wrote:

> Then you obviously haven't read his Callahan books. <snip>

Alayne McGregor has already pointed out the confusion here between 
Kim Stanley Robinson and Spider Robinson. As it happens, I have read 
most of the Callahan's Bar stories - up through the destruction of the 
bar, plus a few later ones. I haven't read the Lady Sally stories; the 
descriptions I've heard don't especially appeal to me.

The early Callahan's stories, I thought, were both funny and moving; 
"The Guy with the Eyes" and "'A Voice Is Heard in Ramah...'", in 
particular, enthralled me when I read them in Analog. (Was it Analog?) 
But the series dropped off sharply, in my estimation, with the first 
intimation of Mike's powers at the end of "The Wonderful Conspiracy". 
I'm not sure why that bothered me so much, except that... before that 
point, the series was about the power of love, as practiced by a bunch 
of ordinary humans. It wasn't the superpowered guys - Mickey, the 
twins, and the rest - who made the difference. After that point...

Beyond that, the stories simply lost steam, IMO. The humor seemed 
forced, and the storylines generally weren't strong enough to support it. 
(I'll grant you the story about the man who thought he was responsible 
for AIDS, but the one about the cluricaune, while funny. was mere 
froth.)

To compare the authors you mention: the humor in Anthony's work 
always struck me as rather childish. (I liked the first few Xanth books, 
mind, up through, maybe, _Night Mare_; there was a sharp downturn 
after that, but even before that there wasn't much *to* the stories.) 
Adams at his best is sidesplitting, but I got the impression that he didn't 
really like any of his characters. _Mostly Harmless_ had a definite air of 
Reichenbach Falls about it, and the change in Dirk Gently's character 
between the two books about him was deeply disappointing. Robinson 
and Pratchett care about their characters, and that's an important factor 
for me - but Robinson only rarely achieves real depth of 
characterization, and most of his work seems rather shallow to me by 
comparison with the best of Pratchett.

Which all is probably more than you wanted to know about my 
opinions...

Jim Parish



--------________--------________--------

From marna at marna.ca  Sat Aug  2 01:54:14 2003
From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 20:54:14 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
References: <20030801.201047.1280.1.ginni.berger@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3F2B0BA5.C7425710@marna.ca>

ginnilee p berger wrote:
 
> .And registering no one would harm rather than help.

Um. That's registering "for selective service".  Typo, missed turn, or
am I missing something? 

> there's  still an ongoing debate about whether or not women should be allowed into combat

ObSnarky: with weapons, that is. In uniform. That whole "unarmed
civilian with a baby in her arms trying to fight her way down her
street, which has just turned into a war zone" thing is still, oddly
enough, considered perfectly feminine and respectable.  

Even a woman who is a pacifist has to wonder what this dichotomy might
imply about her government's benevolent concern for her safety and
security, sometimes... ObBujold, the Vorfemme blade and discussion of
same in _Komarr_. 

As far as similar standards goes, were I in favour of the whole combat
thing, I might point out that it would make far more sense for armies
which send women into combat to a) figure out how women can most
successfully fight and what advantages the different anatomy might
provide and then figure out how to use them instead of trying to treat
them as small men, where all the differences become disadvantages, but
hey, not my job...

Marna.



--------________--------________--------

From WaWenri at aol.com  Sat Aug  2 02:36:25 2003
From: WaWenri at aol.com (WaWenri at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 21:36:25 EDT
Subject: [LMB] now OT:  Cloning and responsibility
Message-ID: <2b.45375b91.2c5c6f99@aol.com>

Marna Nightingalek writes:

> Popular support for conscription is extremely low. I can't see a
> movement to expand the list of possible draftees in ANY way getting
> any traction any time soon. 

Currently there is no conscription in the US.  The military doesn't want it. 
The people in general don't want it. The only person who has suggested 
starting conscription was nostalgic for the anti-Vietnam war protests and thought 
this would get some new ones started.

Bill Wenrich



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Sat Aug  2 02:41:03 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 21:41:03 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 unaccounted-for pregnancies
Message-ID: <c9.362aaf22.2c5c70af@aol.com>

Mike Allen writes:

> But getting back to the Nexus, the uterine replicators sent to Barrayar,
> represented fetuses which weren't to be destroyed, but which the biological
> mothers didn't want not only in their lives, but not anywhere on their
> planet and culture growing up as reminders of trauma.
> 

As I read Mike's post, something occurred to me--who fathered those other 16 
babies?  Vorrutyer and Serg had removed the contraceptive implants from their 
victims, forcing pregnancy on them by having Bothari rape them, but if the 
rest of the women had contraceptive implants, how did they get pregnant?  Were 
they all Serg's victims, and did he use other torturers than Bothari?  Or did 
other men also remove their rape victims' contraceptive implants?  If so, why?  
If not, either the implants weren't as universal or as effective as they were 
reputed to be.  

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Sat Aug  2 02:43:23 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:43:23 -0400
Subject: women fighting, was Re: [LMB] OT: Conscription
In-Reply-To: <3F2B0BA5.C7425710@marna.ca>
References: <20030801.201047.1280.1.ginni.berger@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030801213137.027eb440@pop.mindspring.com>

> > there's  still an ongoing debate about whether or not women should be 
> allowed into combat
>
>ObSnarky: with weapons, that is. In uniform. That whole "unarmed
>civilian with a baby in her arms trying to fight her way down her
>street, which has just turned into a war zone" thing is still, oddly
>enough, considered perfectly feminine and respectable.


yeah....and the ingrained prejudice runs pretty deep society-wide, not just 
in terms of the military.

When I was in sixth grade, some of the boys thought it was fun to harass 
and beat up on the girls.  The teachers did little or nothing to stop 
this.  I kicked their asses, and **I** got in trouble; apparently, it's 
very unladylike to fight, but even more unladylike to win.

I did solve the problem eventually, as at twelve I was a devious and 
ruthless little wench.  **smile**

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Sat Aug  2 02:51:29 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:51:29 -0400
Subject: women fighting, was Re: [LMB] OT: Conscription
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030801213137.027eb440@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3F2B0BA5.C7425710@marna.ca>
 <20030801.201047.1280.1.ginni.berger@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030801214728.027efab0@pop.mindspring.com>

>  it's very unladylike to fight, but even more unladylike to win.


This is not only a prejudice from other people **against** women fighting, 
but internalized social conditioning.  It's exactly why a lot of women 
freeze up and don't defend themselves in situations where they could and 
should:  a lifetime of conditioning that "good girls don't 
fight".   Learned helplessness.  I've helped my ex-husband teach women's 
self-defense courses, and it's THE main hurdle.  Not learning the 
techniques, or the applicability of them....I can and have laid men a foot 
taller and 100 lbs heavier than I out on the floor...but getting past the 
psychological barriers against fighting even in self-defense in the first 
place.

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From bujoldjunkie at tds.net  Sat Aug  2 03:17:41 2003
From: bujoldjunkie at tds.net (D Echelbarger)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 21:17:41 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Spider Robinson (was Hugo nominees)
References: <3F2ABDEC.18286.37EA25E@localhost>
Message-ID: <013e01c3589c$40e81580$48eaaad8@tds.net>

Jim Ais:
> The early Callahan's stories <snip> dropped off
> sharply <snip> at the end of "The Wonderful
> Conspiracy". <snip> before that point, the
series
> was about the power of love, as practiced by a
> bunch of ordinary humans. <snip>  After that
point...
> Beyond that, the stories simply lost steam, IMO.

Yes, that was exactly what bothered me about the
later stories-- that they turned from "humans who
are willing to _care_ can solve anything" to
"humans are so messed up we need to be rescued by
omnipotent beings from the future".  But I was
never able to articulate it that well.

Diane E



--------________--------________--------

From WaWenri at aol.com  Sat Aug  2 03:07:51 2003
From: WaWenri at aol.com (WaWenri at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 22:07:51 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Reading as a coping mechanism, was Memory...and timing.
Message-ID: <e.33d9b90b.2c5c76f7@aol.com>

Lyn writes:

> Yep. Lois has come in mighty handy in the reading as coping mechanism
> department.

Indeed. There are several of Lois' books that help me cope.

Also, I reread one Tom Clancey book when I'm feeling extremely ticked.  It 
has a lager body count of drug dealers.  Actually, I've been kicking around a 
takeoff. Free Idea for anyone who wants it (you can't copywrite ideas). A 
man/woman's spouse/fiancee is killed in a car crash with drug users in a very 
expensive car.  He/she retaliates, not against the drug dealers, but against the 
cars of people trying to score.

Bill Wenrich



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Sat Aug  2 03:14:46 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 22:14:46 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: Where is Chalion?
Message-ID: <105.33c9c0b8.2c5c7896@aol.com>

Lyn writes:

> I think if you go turn a standard map of  Western Europe upside down, 
> you've
> got it, with Chalion as Spain, Ibra to the south as France, the Roknari as
> the various conquerers of North Africa, etc. However, I shall be sitting
> down with your message and my Medieval European History book tonight to play
> with it some more. :)

Spain has some pretty good ports of its own and landlocked Chalion didn't, 
even if the cover picture on CoC had the Alcazar Castle in Segovia in the 
background, or a castle strongly resembling it.  Perhaps both Chalion and Ibra are 
parts of Spain, back when Spain was broken into several small countries: 
Aragon, Castile, Andalusia, (I forget what else).  Except Darthaca--that's got to be 
France, from their attitude about their language!   The Roknari seem like 
Scandinavians to me, although there are many inconsistencies on that one.  Maybe 
northern Germans?

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From tracy.macshane at vuw.ac.nz  Sat Aug  2 03:19:59 2003
From: tracy.macshane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 14:19:59 +1200
Subject: [LMB] OT: Wierd Link of the Day (8/01)
References: <3F2A35AD.1040200@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <00c101c3589c$92d941c0$920fc382@staff.vuw.ac.nz>

I'm still trying to decide if these people (http://aliensandchildren.org)
are serious, but unfortunately, it seems they are.

And I wonder if Cathy A. Malchiodi, ATR, LPAT, LPCC is aware of where her
paper on "Using Drawing as Intervention with Traumatized Children" has been
reproduced, apparently in full, with no copyright acknowlegment....



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Sat Aug  2 03:22:40 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 22:22:40 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: Bothari
Message-ID: <1c9.d5e67c0.2c5c7a70@aol.com>

Mike Allen writes:

> The Barrayan "therapy" consisted mainly of removing all memories
> of this period to protect Sergs reputation . Bothari managed to
> partially defeat this but AFAIK the memories he retained were false
> memories and his actions based on them . His refusal to defend
> himself against Elena sr should be seen as a reluctance to harm
> her not as acceptance of a punishment he probably didn't know
> he deserved .
> 

Remember Bothari's conversation with Cordelia in the graveyard at Vorkosigan 
Surleau?  He knew that Elena Sr. wasn't his wife, although he had believed she 
was at the time.  He also knew that although he had not raped Cordelia (he 
knew that _after_ she told him), he had still committed rape for Vorrutyer and 
Serg.  Not only did he not want to harm Elena Sr., he wanted her to kill him 
because he didn't want to live after Elena Jr. lost her illusions about him.  
Miles referred to his death as suicide.  He even said something guaranteed to 
make her shoot him.  "You are still beautiful, lady."

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Sat Aug  2 03:47:57 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 22:47:57 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2697 - 18 msgs
Message-ID: <18c.1df5d98b.2c5c805d@aol.com>

Kirsten Edwards writes:

> (and I agree 
> w/Mary: Common sense isn't in it, if only because I know 
> too many lawyers.. and village idiots :-). To make it more 
> general (and thence perhaps, less dry tinder-stuff)what sort 
> of laws *in general* do we think will need passing if Real 
> Life (TM) Nexus-style cloning arrives?

Thanks.  Anybody depending on common sense in law is out of luck. 

In this case, it's the legislators we have to worry about!  The lawyers can't 
get their hooks in until laws are passed.  F'rinstance--the NC legislature is 
heavily influenced by the insurance industry, so whoever ends up responsible 
for clones, it won't be anybody's insurance.  

I really wish I could find my bioethics text, but have no idea which of the 
identical little brown cardboard boxes it's packed in, and they all look the 
same.  As I recall, the book suggested making the scientist who produced a human 
clone or any child raised in vitro responsible for it, but they were thinking 
of the first cloned babies produced experimentally.  I don't remember if they 
had gotten to the point of trying to figure out (this was 
pre-Dolly-the-sheep) who would be responsible for clones created _for_ somebody.  Common sense 
(hah) would say that whoever paid to clone the baby would have custody of it, 
but then we start to consider the ideas of stolen tissues, etc., that we have 
been discussing.  Also--everybody on the list has seemed to think there will be 
one set of laws for clone support and custody.  Every planet will probably 
have its own, however.  Beta already does.  Barrayar doesn't.  The issue hasn't 
come up re Komarr, Escobarr, or Cetaganda; and Jackson's Whole doesn't believe 
in laws, apparently, just deals.  

Every state in this country has its own laws for child support and custody 
(at least they did 5 years or so ago when I was paralegaling, there may be a 
unified code by now)--they just are cooperating with one another for collection 
of support.

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Sat Aug  2 03:49:15 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 22:49:15 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: OOOps! That last subject was supposed to be Clone Laws
Message-ID: <1c5.cabc2d7.2c5c80ab@aol.com>




--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Sat Aug  2 04:03:49 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 23:03:49 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: Young male bullies
Message-ID: <1e2.e4ff461.2c5c8415@aol.com>

Sara writes:

> When I was in sixth grade, some of the boys thought it was fun to harass 
> and beat up on the girls.  The teachers did little or nothing to stop 
> this.  I kicked their asses, and **I** got in trouble; apparently, it's 
> very unladylike to fight, but even more unladylike to win.
> 
Yeah, my sixth grade group did the same, concentrating on me as I was the 
smallest and youngest.  Then---I grew.  Eighth and ninth grades were payback time 
until my dad threatened to enter me in the golden gloves if I didn't stop 
getting sent home from school for fighting.  If I'd known you had to be 16 (and 
male) to enter, my life might have been different!

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From zafaran at sff.net  Sat Aug  2 04:10:37 2003
From: zafaran at sff.net (Patricia A. Swan)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 23:10:37 -0400
Subject: women fighting, was Re: [LMB] OT: Conscription
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030801214728.027efab0@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030801213137.027eb440@pop.mindspring.com>
 <3F2B0BA5.C7425710@marna.ca>
 <20030801.201047.1280.1.ginni.berger@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030801223941.01f63a10@pop3.sff.net>

At 09:51 PM 8/1/2003 -0400, Sara A. wrote:

>>  it's very unladylike to fight, but even more unladylike to win.
>
>
>This is not only a prejudice from other people **against** women 
>fighting, but internalized social conditioning.  It's exactly why a 
>lot of women freeze up and don't defend themselves in situations where 
>they could and should:  a lifetime of conditioning that "good girls 
>don't fight".   Learned helplessness.  I've helped my ex-husband teach 
>women's self-defense courses, and it's THE main hurdle.  Not learning 
>the techniques, or the applicability of them....I can and have laid 
>men a foot taller and 100 lbs heavier than I out on the floor...but 
>getting past the psychological barriers against fighting even in 
>self-defense in the first place.
>
>Sara

I'm a member of House Ironrose in the SCA { 
http://www.peak.org/~grainne/Ironrose/ } which is a Society-wide 
household of women fighters, and that is something that is worked with 
a lot.  In fact it's a major point in "The Armored Rose" which is 
considered *the* handbook for training women fighters in the 
Society.  Learning to hit, learning to *be* hit, how to work with 
defeating the social conditioning that tells women that they have to be 
helpless, etc..

There is a very good article about this on the Ironrose website called 
"Five Hurdles" by Duchess Elina of Beckenham { 
http://www.peak.org/~grainne/Ironrose/lizard.html }.  Dutchess Elina is 
the author of "The Armored Rose" and one of the foremost trainers of 
women fighters in the Society.  She is also Duchess by Right of Arms 
because she has fought and won multiple Crown Tourneys herself instead 
of being the Consort of a male fighter who has won it.

Pat in North Carolina


-- 
* Patricia A. Swan     zafaran at eskimo.com              *
* Six Swans Design     http://www.eskimo.com/~zafaran/ *



--------________--------________--------

From jparish at siue.edu  Sat Aug  2 04:25:49 2003
From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 22:25:49 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Birthday
Message-ID: <3F2AE8ED.21241.B9082@localhost>

<The robed figure enters from the right end of the stage, trundling an overhead 
projector on a cart. Reaching center stage, he signals to a stagehand, and the 
curtain behind him rises to reveal a large projection screen. (There is a small 
pile of Tixie Dust below the screen.) He places a transparency on the projector 
and turns it on. He glances at the screen, then turns the transparency over, to 
reveal a freehand sketch-map of the Federal Republic of Germany, and a 
name:>

GERLINDE KETTL

<He pauses, then substitutes another transparency:>

GERLINDE IS:

A WOMAN OF GENEROSITY
(Mar. 4, 2003)

AND OF COMPASSION
(Feb. 4, 2003)

AND OCCASIONALLY CONFUSED BY USAN NAMING CONVENTIONS
(June 2, 2003)

<He replaces it with yet another transparency:>

AND AUGUST 2 IS HER 33RD BIRTHDAY!

<He turns to the audience and motions for them to stand. Then he begins 
applauding, and the audience joins him in a thunderous standing ovation. After 
a bit, he motions again for silence. As the audience grows quiet, he turns off 
the projector and trundles it back offstage. Behind him, the curtain falls.>



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Sat Aug  2 04:29:25 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 23:29:25 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: Young male bullies
In-Reply-To: <1e2.e4ff461.2c5c8415@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030801231532.027e9020@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:03 PM 8/1/03 -0400, you wrote:
>Yeah, my sixth grade group did the same, concentrating on me as I was the
>smallest and youngest.

You may appreciate this story...

some of those same boys formed an "army".  It was mostly a No Stinky Girls 
Allowed Club, which was merely annoying...but it also caused them to hit on 
the tactic of ganging up on me.  One at a time, I generally prevailed 
through sheer cussedness, but more than one...they were getting the best of me.

My reaction went something like this:

(huddling friends and fellow victims together)  "OK, this is what we're 
going to do.  Darlene....you're going to be the general, because if they 
see me coming they're going to know something is up.  I want you to go tell 
them that we've formed our own army, and we're challenging them.  But 
because you know the teachers are not going to let us have a real battle at 
school, we're challenging them to a battle of **wits**.  We'll come up with 
a code, and they can try and break it, and they come up with a code, and 
we'll try to break it.  Whoever breaks the other side's code wins."

This message was received with something along the lines of "sure, we can 
beat any dumb girls".

It soon got out of hand.  The whole school knew about it.  A teacher 
refereed it.  It became a Big Deal.

What they failed to realize before agreeing to my terms was that not only 
had I **read** all of the books on codes and code breaking in the county 
library....I had checked them all out.

Being thorough and meticulous, after I broke their code in less than five 
minutes, and they failed to break mine (amid accusations of cheating)  I 
kindly went up to the black board and showed them how I generated the code 
(really a cipher, technically) and how to break it.

**evil smile**

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From kelts at earthlink.net  Sat Aug  2 04:40:58 2003
From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:40:58 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Blood pressure, was Host mothers
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030801015331.04438008@pop3.sff.net>
Message-ID: <000601c358a7$e305d9a0$afc02b04@earthlink.net>

> {snip bulk of post about pressure artifacts from using the 
> wrong sized blood pressure cuff
 
> And it's not just on the large end of the scale {Hey, Laura, you did 
> know that you can use a normal sized cuff around a large lady's 
> *forearm* and get a proper pressure reading.}

Yep.  I think it's another of those things that good doctors ought to
tell patients, and generally don't. 

My mom gave me chapter and verse on that one, and instructed me that if
a doctor disbelieved me, to pull out her 'authority' as a former cardiac
nurse. 

She also said if you don't have a pedi cuff for a child, use a regular
cuff on the thigh, which might help your excessively thin client.
 
Laura Gallagher



--------________--------________--------

From agnes at charrel.net  Sat Aug  2 05:14:41 2003
From: agnes at charrel.net (Agnes Charrel-Berthillier)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:14:41 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
References: <200307312215.h6VMFCj6014016@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <3F29A57C.8080801@bigdogz.com>
Message-ID: <3F2B3AB1.5060509@charrel.net>

Bart Kemper wrote:
>
> Registration for the draft in the US is mandatory for all
> males, regardless of health or other status.  If a US male does not 
> register, he cannot get federal student loans, federal jobs, etc. etc. 
> Women are not required to do so.  As such, males must bear the burden of 
> being eligible for the draft as a price of citizenship, women are not.

Actually the US makes draft mandatory for non-citizens males under a 
certain age, too. So being draftable is not a price (or a cost?) of 
citizenship.

I found that totally mind-boggling, BTW.


Agnes



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Sat Aug  2 05:11:32 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 00:11:32 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Cordelia's Honor...
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030802000632.027f4b10@pop.mindspring.com>

Finished reading it....not a lot to say right now, except that I've also 
got a kid who employs the Instant Re-Negotiation Strategy....I like how the 
end is implicit in the beginning (even allowing for knowing what **must** 
happen before I started, there's a balance to how it plays out).

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net  Sat Aug  2 05:23:23 2003
From: kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net (Jill Wyrtham)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 22:23:23 -0600
Subject: women fighting, was Re: [LMB] OT: Conscription
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030801213137.027eb440@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <20030801.201047.1280.1.ginni.berger@juno.com>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20030801213137.027eb440@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3F2B3CBB.6050308@comcast.net>

> I did solve the problem eventually, as at twelve I was a devious and 
> ruthless little wench.  **smile**

How? Ruthless and devious inquiring minds want to know!

Jill

-- 
**Sig Error 404: Clever Sig Not Found***



--------________--------________--------

From kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net  Sat Aug  2 05:26:04 2003
From: kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net (Jill Wyrtham)
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 22:26:04 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Reading as a coping mechanism, was Memory...and
 timing.
In-Reply-To: <e.33d9b90b.2c5c76f7@aol.com>
References: <e.33d9b90b.2c5c76f7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F2B3D5C.1060302@comcast.net>

>
>
>Also, I reread one Tom Clancey book when I'm feeling extremely ticked.  It 
>has a lager body count of drug dealers.  
>
Curious article on Foxnews web site; it seems that Mr. Clancy didn't write *any* of his supposed novels (or at least the article purports to show this). I found out about it (via someone who knew him personally) from someone else about two years ago and haven't read any of his stuff since.

Jill

-- 
**Sig Error 404: Clever Sig Not Found***



--------________--------________--------

From paal at gis.net  Sat Aug  2 05:30:41 2003
From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 00:30:41 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
References: <20030801.201047.1280.1.ginni.berger@juno.com>
Message-ID: <060001c358ae$d5aeeab0$0100a8c0@LAPTOP>

-- Paula Lieberman

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ginnilee p berger" <ginni.berger at juno.com>


> On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:26:21 -0400 Marna Nightingale <marna at marna.ca>
> writes:
> > Bart Kemper wrote:
> > >
> > > Women are not required to do so.  As such, males must bear the
> > burden of being eligible for the draft as a price of citizenship, women
> are
> > not.
>
> Women have never been conscripted in any army throughout history, being

What about the one in Dahomey back in the 1800s?!

> considered "the weaker sex" by men who believe, for the most part, that
> women should never have any part of war. One reason is that they held the
> homefires and kept them burning. Another was that SOMEONE had to take
> care of the children, and protect the children. Women also defended the

Protect when lots of them never were allowed to learn to use weapons in much
of the world? Off go the menfolk to WAR, and home stay the women to be
brutalized in incursions.   LOTS of that happened, though the textbooks tend
to leave out those nasty bits...

> homestead, if they were able to- look in your history books. Not to

Mostly they weren't, because of the fallacy of "menfolk protect WIMMIN and
CHILLUN, and My Wife is not going to be Unfeminine and -I- am all the
Protection My Family Needs!. " Yes there were exceptions, including Eleanor
of Acquitain would outfought her literally saintly husband Loius, and then
dumped him for the younger and no saint Henry Plantagenet of England.... but
mostly women were raised and kept to be -victims-.... because the cultures
mostly had this image of Demon Female-- look at the images of Kali, sheila
na grig in Irish churches, the image of the succubus.... and the attitude in
so-called "Islamic Law" of locking women in purdah because otherwise they
might steal men's souls, all the Lillith stuff, etc.

Of course, when the husband -dies-.... but the attitude there was like the
one that a woman who used to write letter after letter to the main newspaper
in Colorado Springs had.  Her letters boiled down to "the natural role of a
woman is to be a homemaker and mother and homebody, and that natural role of
a man to be in the labor force working outside the home earning money." I
called her up and asked her, "what happens if the husband dies and the wife
is left a widow? What happens if the husband runs off or there's a divorce?"
Her response that those DON'T HAPPEN!   -- emphasis mine, in utter disbelief
that this woman is living in -reality-.  In her universe, women don't get
widows, and don't get dumped by their husband and get left in the position
of having children and no income of their own....

> mention that there are several scifi/fantasy authors point out that as
> the women's responsibility.

I mostly don't -read- those writer's work.  Most of the writers whose work I
do read -- Lois, Roland Green,  S. M. Stirling, Michelle Sagara West,
Elizabeth Moon, Susan Shwartz, even David Drake, etc., have -both- genders
out there working, fighting, etc.,

>>> Yes, I am fully aware groups like NOW state "we
>>> are against  registration at all, therefore we are not being
>>> sexist"...but the reality is that the males do have to register
>>> and the law was already in place makes the assertation "we
>>> want the same for both genders" rather  convenient..and weak.
>
> > Really, Bart, Kiri and I are both over 30 and somewhat disabled,
> > and on top of that I've got Conscientious Objector pretty much tattooed
>
> > on my bum.
>
> Hear, hear! I'm considered partially disabled because I have fibromyalgia
> and have hurt my left wrist so many times, as well as rotator cuff
> syndrome, and a wonky knee. And I've never been fond of someone telling
> me that I have to think this way- yes, they need people to fight, but
> there's a lot of people who've gone into the military that I agree it's

Sometimes there's been alternate federal service available such as the Peace
Corps and VISTA/now-Americorps, and/or protected occupations -- 
schoolteachers were exempted from Vietnam, for example.

> not so likely that men who are registered will be called up. In the case
> of nuclear war, we're all in equal danger, not the people living in the
> country where the war is going on. Not that I think it will come to
> nuclear war, but I am very aware of the danger of anything nuclear,
> considering I lived a mile as the crow flies from Diablo Canyon Nuclear
> Power Plant, which is situated on top of three earthquake faults(Reagan
> was governor when it was approved, and then they managed to build one
> side backwards)! That law has been in place for a lot longer than when
> women finally got the vote, so that assertion is not so weak, since women
> have been considered weaker for eons, so stuff convenience!
>

[snip]

> I agree with Marna, and whoever wants to make children serve in the army

Once upon a time the age of adulthood was 12 or 13, now it's up past 18 or
even beyond 22?!

> is sick, sick, sick. There are lots of boys who lied about their age so
> they could get into the armed services at a younger age. I think they're
> wrong to do that, but I'm not their parents. And registering no one would
> harm rather than help. Many women are now in the armed services, and it's
> their choice. The services wouldn't have taken them if they weren't in
> the best of health, far better than mine. And there's  still an ongoing
> debate about whether or not women should be allowed into combat, as women
> have been following armies for eons, as nurses, doctors and prostitutes-

Women have -been- in armies for millennia -- look up "Scythians" and
"Sauromartians".  Note Deborah in the Bible.  The Victorian redactors and
various others tried to removes most of the traces, however.  Given that
most of the writings of the ancient world are long gone, and the ones that
remain had a LOT of editing done to them....   S. M. Stirling had an article
about in in the old Baen series _Destinies_., regarding that historically
there HAVE been female warriors, and more than just a few here and there.

> and don't jump all over me for mentioning that, since it's a long-time
> tradition. After all, prostitution was the first profession.....

Not really.  That's more calumny.  LOTS of that out there.

===

For the record, I believe that registration for -potential- draft shouldn't
exclude ANYONE on basis of gender, but that drafts should be avoided
generally. Sometimes they're necessary.  Lots of people like to say that
everyone ELSE should volunteer....



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Sat Aug  2 05:41:45 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 00:41:45 -0400
Subject: women fighting, was Re: [LMB] OT: Conscription
In-Reply-To: <3F2B3CBB.6050308@comcast.net>
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030801213137.027eb440@pop.mindspring.com>
 <20030801.201047.1280.1.ginni.berger@juno.com>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20030801213137.027eb440@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030802004114.027ed440@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:23 PM 8/1/03 -0600, you wrote:
>How? Ruthless and devious inquiring minds want to know!


see following story about the Battle of Wits....

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From robertaw at drizzle.com  Sat Aug  2 05:59:44 2003
From: robertaw at drizzle.com (Robert A. Woodward)
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 21:59:44 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Re: Where is Chalion?
In-Reply-To: <105.33c9c0b8.2c5c7896@aol.com>
Message-ID: <21ECC6E0-C4A6-11D7-BD6C-0003936731E6@drizzle.com>

On Friday, August 1, 2003, at 07:14  PM, CatMtn at aol.com wrote:

> Lyn writes:
>
>> I think if you go turn a standard map of  Western Europe upside down,
>> you'vegot it, with Chalion as Spain, Ibra to the south as France, the  
>> Roknari as
>> the various conquerers of North Africa, etc. However, I shall be  
>> sitting
>> down with your message and my Medieval European History book tonight  
>> to play
>> with it some more. :)
>
> Spain has some pretty good ports of its own and landlocked Chalion  
> didn't,
> even if the cover picture on CoC had the Alcazar Castle in Segovia in  
> the
> background, or a castle strongly resembling it.  Perhaps both Chalion  
> and Ibra are
> parts of Spain, back when Spain was broken into several small  
> countries:
> Aragon, Castile, Andalusia, (I forget what else).  Except  
> Darthaca--that's got to be
> France, from their attitude about their language!   The Roknari seem  
> like

Chalion is Castile; Ibra is Aragon; Brajar is Portugal; the high March  
of Yiss is most likely Navarre; and the Roknari is Grenada plus north  
west Africa,

------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
--------
Robert A. Woodward - robertaw at drizzle.com

"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.



--------________--------________--------

From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com  Sat Aug  2 06:06:58 2003
From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 01:06:58 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Spider Robinson
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030802010601.00a392b0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Ginnilee and Alayne both like Spider Robinson's books.

Not only is he a fun author, he's a heck of a musician!  Does anyone know 
if he'll be playing any time at TorCon?  I'd love to hear him!

Jerrie



--------________--------________--------

From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com  Sat Aug  2 06:48:27 2003
From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 01:48:27 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Young male bullies
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030802014612.00a38950@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Coming well-armed to the battle of wits, Sara puts a whole new twist on 
gang warfare.

Sara, are you by any chance of the short persuasion?  [a reference to a 
time when Miles was referred to as a "twisty little dwarf"]  You will have 
lots of fun getting acquainted with Miles, who demonstrates similar 
propensities for deviousness.

:)

Jerrie



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Sat Aug  2 07:19:04 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 02:19:04 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Young male bullies
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030802014612.00a38950@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030802015903.027ead90@pop.mindspring.com>

At 01:48 AM 8/2/03 -0400, you wrote:
>Sara, are you by any chance of the short persuasion?

**blandly innocent look**  Me?

Actually, you have no idea (or possibly you do) how much being short, 
female, buxom, and having big brown eyes can be simultaneously both a curse 
and something of an advantage.  People tend to underestimate me. If I were 
a more unscrupulous person, or lived in more...interesting...times, I could 
probably have gone far.  Unfortunately, most situations I generally 
encounter in real life are made more difficult by being underestimated, not 
to mention far more annoying.

>You will have lots of fun getting acquainted with Miles, who demonstrates 
>similar propensities for deviousness.

Yes, I am.  I am also having visions of the future when my son reaches 
adulthood.  =8-0

I've started on "Young Miles", which is prompting me to giggle a lot and 
inform My Sweetie that "you need to read this!"

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From carosue at centurytel.net  Sat Aug  2 07:38:37 2003
From: carosue at centurytel.net (House of Unruly Fish)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 00:38:37 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Poor Simon's Almanack - Aug 2
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030801015851.00bb86e0@mail.so.centurytel.net>

This Day In Listory:

2002 - Amidst much nattering and joking, some "Whys" pop out, such as Miles 
wearing metal braces rather than plastic, and Zap not having been spayed 
after that first famous litter.
2001 - (Digests 4416-8) Listees are managing to score copies of CoC by the 
dozens now, and a tsunami of discussion washes over the list.  POST FROM 
LOIS about a filk starting on the Baen board concerning the Cetaganda 
kitten tree (4417), and two more in 4418 about Amazon sales rankings and 
word of mouth promotion.  Patrick Vera reports that Lois is up to Chapter 
17 of the New Thing (per a Baen chatboard post).
2000 - (Digests 3507-9) How hovercars might work.  POST FROM LOIS about 
signed remaindered copies of ACC available at Dreamhaven. Lots of other 
chat too.
1999 - (Digests 2603-6) (2604 missing) Of course the ACC commentary 
continues, with a really excellent overview of Chapter 9.1 by James 
Burbidge in 2603.
1998 - (Digests 1777-8) Mainly interesting somewhat on-topic conversation 
continuing from the day before.
1997 - (Digest 800) Lords' heirs and descent of titles.
1996 - (Digest 326) Everyone wants more 'Memory', with just the first 3 
chapters available so far on the Baen site.  Humorous post from Maureen 
O'Brien on how Lois can gain a 48 hour day. "Connectrix warns that at the 
higher numbers DayDoubler becomes less stable and that you run the risk of 
a temporal crash in which everything from the beginning of time to the 
present would come crashing down around you, sucking you into a black hole. 
Should this occur, be sure to reboot with the shift key down."
1995 - (Digests 38-9) Discussion of Baz & Elena's 
relationship.  Announcement that Lois will be GoH at Boskone 33, and NESFA 
will be doing the usual book (which I believe was Dreamweaver's Dilemma).

Respectfully submitted by,

Susan the Neon Nurse

All the above info collected from:

http://lists.herald.co.uk/old-archives/lois-bujold/

and the New List archives at

<http://lists.herald.co.uk/pipermail/lois-bujold/>http://lists.herald.co.uk/pipermail/lois-bujold/

Additions, corrections or catnip may be sent to carosue at centurytel.net



--------________--------________--------

From jbryant at iee.org  Sat Aug  2 09:10:37 2003
From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 09:10:37 +0100
Subject: [LMB] Punctuation (WAS OT:- Can't stand it any more)
In-Reply-To: <200308012105.h71L59j6023798@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030802090730.03dc6ae8@pop.luna.co.uk>

Marna says she:-

 >...must get around to learning to punctuate.

Decadence! Depravity! Moral turpentine!

Are we going to tolerate this sort of thing
on a respectable list?

PIZZA!

James - who has these fits from time to time



--------________--------________--------

From sbanker at purdue.edu  Sat Aug  2 10:14:34 2003
From: sbanker at purdue.edu (Samantha Banker)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 04:14:34 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Blood pressure, was Host mothers
In-Reply-To: <000601c358a7$e305d9a0$afc02b04@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000001c358d6$7d52cd50$91c9d380@banker>

Laura said last:
  
> > And it's not just on the large end of the scale {Hey, Laura, you did
> > know that you can use a normal sized cuff around a large lady's 
> > *forearm* and get a proper pressure reading.}
> 
> Yep.  I think it's another of those things that good doctors 
> ought to tell patients, and generally don't. 

Well, actually that's not strictly true.  To get true readings that can be
compared against eachother, you can't put the cuff on the wrist, ankle, etc.
The pressure changes as the cuff's location relative to the heart changes.
I don't recall how it changes from my Problems in the Measurement of
Physiological Events course, but I remember Dr. Geddes and Dr. Borland (sic)
telling us that over and over.

---Samantha



--------________--------________--------

From aharo at erols.com  Sat Aug  2 13:03:57 2003
From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 08:03:57 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 unaccounted-for pregnancies
References: <c9.362aaf22.2c5c70af@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F2BA8AD.E8DEFA64@erols.com>

CatMtn at aol.com wrote:

> As I read Mike's post, something occurred to me--who fathered those other 16
> babies?  Vorrutyer and Serg had removed the contraceptive implants from their
> victims, forcing pregnancy on them by having Bothari rape them, but if the
> rest of the women had contraceptive implants, how did they get pregnant?  Were
> they all Serg's victims, and did he use other torturers than Bothari?  Or did
> other men also remove their rape victims' contraceptive implants?  

What other men? I have always maintained that that these
babies are all Serg's, which is why Cordelia almost makes a
verbal slip with Drou in _Barrayar_, but manages to get back
to the official story. We have some reason to believe that
Serg's enthusiasm for raping pregnant women predates his
association with Vorrutyer ("After I became pregnant, Ezar
shielded me"), and we know it predates his involvement with
Bothari. So why would we expect that he was not an active
participant in impregnating some of the women?

Why would there need to be an "official story" at all,
unless there was a time bomb in here? I think Gregor has a
lot of bastard half-brothers and sisters he knows nothing
about.

I also think Lois set this one up for herself, but the
stories haven't taken thatdirection, and the sibs are
quietly buried under the Next Best Thing.



--------________--------________--------

From iosef at gothic.net.au  Sat Aug  2 13:47:40 2003
From: iosef at gothic.net.au (I)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 22:47:40 +1000
Subject: [LMB] Punctuation  OT:
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030802090730.03dc6ae8@pop.luna.co.uk>
References: <200308012105.h71L59j6023798@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20030802224624.00b30860@mail.gothic.net.au>

At 06:10 PM 2/08/2003, James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote:

>  Moral turpentine!
>
>Are we going to tolerate this sort of thing
>on a respectable list?
But nothing else gets out those Scarlet Letters....

Iestyn



--------________--------________--------

From JEANCAIN at aol.com  Sat Aug  2 14:58:30 2003
From: JEANCAIN at aol.com (JEANCAIN at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 09:58:30 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Young bullies' victims OT:
Message-ID: <6B480375.746800BB.006CAB1D@aol.com>

 CatMtn writes:

> some of the boys thought it was fun to harass 
> > and beat up on the girls.  The teachers did little or 
> nothing to stop 
> > this.

Victims of bullies can feel they have little recourse.  The conventional 'wisdom' in these situations is often expressed as:
1) Ignore the bullies, they're just doing it to get a reaction from you.
2) Don't be a tattletale.
3) Parents shouldn't get involved in fighting their children's battles.

If authority figures won't help/don't want to know and they seem to think it is somehow your own fault that the abuse continues, because you are a tattletale or not 'ignoring' your tormentors sufficiently, what options are left for the victims?

I think sometimes they just endure it and develop a lot of rage and self-loathing, or sometimes they use personal violence themselves as a solution, or maybe they join a powerful gang to protect themselves.  

And to combine this with the idea of books as coping mechanism, I think sometimes they escape to fantasy worlds where wonderful and exciting and satisfying things happen to rather ordinary, put-upon underdogs, who are discovered to have vitally useful strengths and talents.  Actually, I think the fantasy becomes real for not a few bullied kids.  They do grow from being low on the childhood pecking order to being respected, valued adults.

Jean Cain (who remembers schoolyard bullies threatening to beat her up and stick her with diaper pins)



--------________--------________--------

From jbryant at iee.org  Sat Aug  2 12:20:02 2003
From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 12:20:02 +0100
Subject: [LMB] Travel, Books, Clones & Conscription OT:
In-Reply-To: <200308020147.h721l5j6024887@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030802121413.03e46e40@pop.luna.co.uk>

For packing books to take home from your
travels Kirsten Edwards advises that:-

 >...in places like the UK <SNIP!> you'll
 >just have to spring for another suitcase.

Cheap boxes are available in office supply
stores here (UK) and they're free at most
supermarkets if you can grab 'em before
they're shredded. You'll have to buy the
duck tape, though.

James - who has been known to travel with
empty suitcases for bringing back books



--------________--------________--------

From Robert at WarnickeLittler.com  Sat Aug  2 16:19:06 2003
From: Robert at WarnickeLittler.com (Robert Warnicke)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 08:19:06 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Hugo nominees
In-Reply-To: <200308020147.h721lDj6024890@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <006201c35909$6a9bd0c0$6b01a8c0@D6FL1B21>

Jim Parish stated:
> I'm of two minds about Robinson. I find his works rather dry, as a
> > rule,
> > although I enjoyed the Orange County trilogy.

Ginnilee said:
  
> 
> Then you obviously haven't read his Callahan books.

I think that is Spider Robinson, not Kim Stanley Robinson....  fun and
yet sad, I seem to remember the main character starts hanging out at the
saloon because he tried to save money on a brake job and ended up
killing his family...

--------
Robert W
 



--------________--------________--------

From Robert at WarnickeLittler.com  Sat Aug  2 16:32:10 2003
From: Robert at WarnickeLittler.com (Robert Warnicke)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 08:32:10 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Spider Robinson (was Hugo nominees)
In-Reply-To: <200308020501.h7251Bj6025755@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <006501c3590b$3de18cd0$6b01a8c0@D6FL1B21>

> Jim Ais:
> > was about the power of love, as practiced by a
> > bunch of ordinary humans. <snip> 
> > Beyond that, the stories simply lost steam, IMO.

Diane said

> they turned from "humans who
> are willing to _care_ can solve anything" to
> "humans are so messed up we need to be rescued by
> omnipotent beings from the future".  

Wow it has been too many shots a tequila ago for me...  I remember
really enjoying the first few books that were loaned, and then not
liking the Lady Callahan stuff.  I also remember being disappointed
about something in the  one where the bar got blown up.  I assume it was
the superpower stuff, but it never occurred to me to ask what went wrong
or why.  You guys are way too smart, and probably strike fear into the
heart of authors everywhere. :)

For humor now, mostly look to Neal Stephenson.  Zodiac cracked me up, as
well as some of the asides and situational stuff in Crypto(unspellable).
I felt that Crypto(unspellable)got lost somewhere between 1945 and the
present though.  Bummer.

--------
Robert W



--------________--------________--------

From pgranzeau at cox.net  Sat Aug  2 16:23:48 2003
From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 10:23:48 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
In-Reply-To: <3F2B3AB1.5060509@charrel.net>
References: <200307312215.h6VMFCj6014016@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <3F29A57C.8080801@bigdogz.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030802101808.01dc4230@pop.east.cox.net>

At 23:14 08/01/2003, Agnes Charrel-Berthillier wrote:

>>Registration for the draft in the US is mandatory for all
>>males, regardless of health or other status.  If a US male does not 
>>register, he cannot get federal student loans, federal jobs, etc. etc. 
>>Women are not required to do so.  As such, males must bear the burden of 
>>being eligible for the draft as a price of citizenship, women are not.
>
>Actually the US makes draft mandatory for non-citizens males under a 
>certain age, too. So being draftable is not a price (or a cost?) of 
>citizenship.
>
>I found that totally mind-boggling, BTW.

The registration applies to all residents of the USA.  I had a friend in 
the USN who was a Canadian who entered the US on a permanent visa; the 
first thing the INS told him to do when he entered was to report to his 
draft board (this was in the 1950s).

It's a long story, but he was a merchant seaman; he got a job on a ship in 
the Korean war zone for 18 months, and was drafted for the Army as soon as 
he returned to the US.  He spent his 2 years in the Army as the engineer of 
an Army tugboat at Ft. Eustis.


-- 
Regards, Pete
pgranzeau at cox.net 



--------________--------________--------

From pgranzeau at cox.net  Sat Aug  2 16:33:13 2003
From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 10:33:13 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Re: Where is Chalion?
In-Reply-To: <105.33c9c0b8.2c5c7896@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030802102721.01dc78f0@pop.east.cox.net>

At 21:14 08/01/2003, CatMtn at aol.com wrote:

>Spain has some pretty good ports of its own and landlocked Chalion didn't,
>even if the cover picture on CoC had the Alcazar Castle in Segovia in the
>background, or a castle strongly resembling it.  Perhaps both Chalion and 
>Ibra are
>parts of Spain, back when Spain was broken into several small countries:
>Aragon, Castile, Andalusia, (I forget what else).  Except Darthaca--that's 
>got to be
>France, from their attitude about their language!   The Roknari seem like
>Scandinavians to me, although there are many inconsistencies on that 
>one.  Maybe
>northern Germans?

It's the Alcazar; I have seen a photo taken from virtually the exact same 
place, and it's the same, detail for detail.  The real Alcazar isn't in the 
middle of a rocky desert, however.

While Lois started with the situation in 15th Century Spain, she didn't 
slavishly make the situation identical.  Isabella's Castile, for instance, 
had seacoasts on the Bay of Biscay and to the east and west of Granada 
(south of Portugal and Aragon).


-- 
Regards, Pete
pgranzeau at cox.net 



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Sat Aug  2 17:41:03 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 12:41:03 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: Where is Chalion?
Message-ID: <6a.338f2c20.2c5d439f@aol.com>

Robert A. Woodward writes:

> Chalion is Castile; Ibra is Aragon; Brajar is Portugal; the high March  
> of Yiss is most likely Navarre; and the Roknari is Granada plus north  
> west Africa,

Now, that makes more sense.  And didn't the marriage of Ferdinand and 
Isabella join Aragon and Castile?  So the Roknari kingdoms are the Moors of the 
Chalionverse.  Interesting, even to the different religion.  I still think Darthaca 
is France, though.  (Maybe I should read PoS before being too sure.)  That 
would be like the France of today and the fairly recent past; I don't know how 
they acted in the Chalionverse time.

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Sat Aug  2 18:10:54 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 13:10:54 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: Female advantage
Message-ID: <6b.1672e6bd.2c5d4a9e@aol.com>

Sara writes:

> Actually, you have no idea (or possibly you do) how much being short, 
> female, buxom, and having big brown eyes can be simultaneously both a curse 
> and something of an advantage.  People tend to underestimate me.

Being tall, female, and slim, with red hair and big green eyes tends to make 
them underestimate your brains as well.  You're right--it can be a curse in 
that you get away with far too much and get in the habit of letting other people 
do things for you instead of learning to do them for yourself.  However, I 
think men tended (in my youth, anyway) to underestimate female brains in 
general, whatever the female looked like.   Of course, we females played along with 
this in order to get the "underestimation" advantage.  Most of the men never 
knew what happened.  We didn't get the kind of  "respect" Drou talked about, 
though.

One of the many things that attracted me to my husband was that he saw 
through the act, and loved me anyway.  

In my mother's time (the early 1920's), among preteen and early teen children 
things must have been a little different.  Her brother, who was four years 
older than she, was very tall and strong, but gentle, and used to tell the short 
guys who wanted to prove themselves by beating him up to leave him alone or 
he'd have his little sister pound them.  After she did it a few times, they 
left him alone.

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From m.dolbear at lineone.net  Sat Aug  2 17:06:00 2003
From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 17:06:00 +0100
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 unaccounted-for pregnancies
Message-ID: <E19j0gd-000Nsz-RF@mk-smarthost-4.mail.uk.tiscali.com>

> From: Alexandra Haropulos <aharo at erols.com>
> Date: 02 August 2003 13:03
> 
> CatMtn at aol.com wrote:
> 
> > As I read Mike's post, something occurred to me--who fathered those
other 16
> > babies?  Vorrutyer and Serg had removed the contraceptive implants from
their
> > victims, forcing pregnancy on them by having Bothari rape them, but if
the
> > rest of the women had contraceptive implants, how did they get
pregnant?  Were
> > they all Serg's victims, and did he use other torturers than Bothari? 
Or did
> > other men also remove their rape victims' contraceptive implants?  
> 
> What other men? I have always maintained that that these
> babies are all Serg's, which is why Cordelia almost makes a
> verbal slip with Drou in _Barrayar_, but manages to get back
> to the official story. We have some reason to believe that
> Serg's enthusiasm for raping pregnant women predates his
[...]

If 16 out of 17 had the same father, I think the Escobaran tech's speech
[SoH ch 11]

"Personally, I'd suggest you hang them around their fathers' necks. The
paternal gene complement is marked on each one, so you should have no
trouble telling who they belong to. Sign here." 

would have been different.

Little Egret



--------________--------________--------

From m.dolbear at lineone.net  Sat Aug  2 16:50:29 2003
From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 16:50:29 +0100
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
Message-ID: <E19j0gb-000Nsz-Pe@mk-smarthost-4.mail.uk.tiscali.com>

> From: ginnilee p berger <ginni.berger at juno.com>
> Date: 02 August 2003 01:10

[..]

> Women have never been conscripted in any army throughout history, being
> considered "the weaker sex" by men who believe, for the most part, that
> women should never have any part of war. One reason is that they held the
> homefires and kept them burning. Another was that SOMEONE had to take
[...]

Accepting this as true, women have been conscripted to work in munitions
factories, on farms etc. and men have been conscripted to work in coal
mines (both Britain, WW2).

Please examine precisely what your argument is.

Little Egret



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Sat Aug  2 19:13:45 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 14:13:45 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: Female advantage
In-Reply-To: <6b.1672e6bd.2c5d4a9e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030802135034.027e3440@pop.mindspring.com>

At 01:10 PM 8/2/03 -0400, you wrote:
>  You're right--it can be a curse in
>that you get away with far too much and get in the habit of letting other 
>people
>do things for you instead of learning to do them for yourself.

that wasn't what I was thinking of.  I've never been much inclined to let 
other people do things for me; they hardly ever do it as well as I would, 
and besides it's a form of control over me which I feel I can ill afford to 
allow.  Nor do I really get away with much, because people aren't so 
indulgent of someone they subconsciously think of as a child.

I was more thinking of, in a lot of situations people's estimation of you 
counts a lot.  You can't show how brilliant and competent you are if they 
never give you a chance to DO it.   If they think of you as a human 
fuzzball/kid because you're small, big-eyed and cute, they won't **allow** 
you to do things and they don't listen; also, they generally try to push 
you around.  And if you don' t allow yourself to be pushed, and  insist on 
being listened to, breaking their illusion of tractability, they think 
you're a big ol' bitch.  Complete with air of injured indignation:   "The 
bunny, it BIT me!"

In many ways, what people **believe** about you shapes your options.  I'm 
good at problem-solving, but I can make a suggestion in a group of people 
and it won't be listened to; ten minutes later a tall male can make the 
VERY SAME suggestion and every one will agree it's f*cking brilliant.

Of course, after people get to **know** me, their opinion often changes, 
and I become the person they assume has the answers.

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From Cathal1950 at aol.com  Sat Aug  2 20:07:11 2003
From: Cathal1950 at aol.com (Cathal1950 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 15:07:11 EDT
Subject: [LMB] OT: Blood pressure
Message-ID: <1ea.e37122a.2c5d65df@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/2/2003 7:04:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes:

> : [LMB] OT: Blood pressure
> Always remembering that none of these are actual blood pressure.  A 
> Swan-Gantz  at the outlet, very high tec - or an arterial line (just cut down to an 
> artery, insert a tube, run the tube up a IV pole and tape a plastic measureing 
> tape beside it - with the zero at heat level - very low tec) are direct 
> measures.  All the rest of the measures have an interveing variable which one 
> hopes to hold constant to some standard to make use of the measure.
> 
> Julian



--------________--------________--------

From j-mag at brokersys.com  Sat Aug  2 20:45:03 2003
From: j-mag at brokersys.com (J-Mag Guthrie)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 14:45:03 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Filk plug erratum reminds me (now OT:)
In-Reply-To: <3F295AC9.15023.309EEE1@localhost>; from jparish@siue.edu
 on Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 18:07:05 -0500
References: <3F295AC9.15023.309EEE1@localhost>
Message-ID: <20030802194503.GD11474@chromite.brokersys.com>

On 2003.07.31 18:07, jparish at siue.edu wrote:
> Sigh. That's "McDonald", not Macdonald. (And I know exactly who to
> blame for the slip-up. You know who you are...)

Old MacDonald had a farm
E-i-e-i-o
Now he has a restaurant
E-i-e-i-o
'Cause the cow is dead, the sheep is dead
The pig's dead, chicken's dead, everything is dead, dead
Old MacDonald had a farm
E-i-e-i-o


- J-Mag



--------________--------________--------

From d_reykova at juno.com  Sat Aug  2 22:18:42 2003
From: d_reykova at juno.com (Danielle N. Hart)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 21:18:42 GMT
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
Message-ID: <20030802.171909.6796.361499@webmail14.nyc.untd.com>

>>And there's  still an ongoing debate about whether or not women should be allowed into combat, as women have been following armies for eons, as nurses, doctors and prostitutes- and don't jump all over me for mentioning that, since it's a long-time tradition. After all, prostitution was the first profession.....>>

 As far as the question of the "oldest profession", it's sort of a chicken-and-egg thing.  Because the first *customer* was likely a soldier...  I'm part of their number, I'm allowed to speak.  

 Danielle

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!



--------________--------________--------

From carbonelle at juno.com  Sat Aug  2 22:48:39 2003
From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 21:48:39 GMT
Subject: [LMB] Re: Soldiering OT:
Message-ID: <20030802.144926.506.640938@webmail03.lax.untd.com>

Marna offers: "I in favour of the whole combat thing, I might 
point out that it would make far more sense for armies which 
send women into combat to a) figure out how women can most successfully fight and what advantages the different anatomy might
provide and then figure out how to use them instead of trying to treat
them as small men, where all the differences become disadvantages, but
hey, not my job..."

I think the Israeli army did that, and found out (1) Men tend to
be better soldiers than women both in terms of inclination [*] and 
general ability for most of the combat jobs. (2) When men and women 
are mixed in combat the results are inferior to just having men. 

A small population rather dictates their logistics, therefore...

On the other hand, I believe they found that women tend to be
preferable to men in some roles (such as drill instructor) and
thus they use their female recruits accordingly.

Read this a long time ago though. Anyone else read anything on 
this one?

ObBujold (if I wasn't a bit rushed this would be the bulk of
the post) It seems to me that in Bujold's Nexus, the setting for
warfare has changed so much as to make sex-differences largely
irrelevant. Any takers?

Kirsten Edwards

[*] A critical data point in an all-volunteer army, but maybe
not in either a conscripted or required min.-service format?

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!



--------________--------________--------

From carbonelle at juno.com  Sat Aug  2 22:56:05 2003
From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 21:56:05 GMT
Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2698 - 21 msgs
Message-ID: <20030802.145630.506.640981@webmail03.lax.untd.com>

Someone wrote: "it's very unladylike to fight, but even 
more unladylike to win."

Well, no, but tough to court someone when you've just 
been whomped silly (Though it had the opposite affect on
my husband, wh. is probably why we're married now :-)
And that concern tends to have overwhelming influence on
the young ladies (wh. is as much biology as social 
conditioning, I think).

>From what I've seen in my (sadly, now defunct) karate days,
the social rubic for girls is: "It's wrong to *HURT* someone"

Winning the gals do w/pleasure and verve, but snapping an elbow
into someone's head or a punch to their gut or a sweeping
their legs out from under them at full power... No.

ObBujold again--recall Kou's first few rounds as M'lady
Cordelias champion in the friendly bouts...

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!



--------________--------________--------

From carbonelle at juno.com  Sat Aug  2 22:56:51 2003
From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 21:56:51 GMT
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Apologies
Message-ID: <20030802.145731.506.640989@webmail03.lax.untd.com>

Typing too fast, sent off w/out proper
header. V. sorry.

Kirsten

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!



--------________--------________--------

From jparish at siue.edu  Sat Aug  2 23:07:00 2003
From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 17:07:00 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Ladies (not OT)
In-Reply-To: <20030802.145630.506.640981@webmail03.lax.untd.com>
Message-ID: <3F2BEFB4.30652.2D73BE0@localhost>

Kirsten Edwards wrote:

> ObBujold again--recall Kou's first few rounds as M'lady
> Cordelias champion in the friendly bouts...

Tch, tch. That was *Drou*. Kou was the referee.

Jim Parish
(trying to get my on-topic percentage up...)



--------________--------________--------

From maia.b at aon.at  Sat Aug  2 23:23:34 2003
From: maia.b at aon.at (Maia)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 00:23:34 +0200
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
In-Reply-To: <20030801.201047.1280.1.ginni.berger@juno.com>
References: <20030801.201047.1280.1.ginni.berger@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3F2C39E6.6070801@aon.at>

ginnilee p berger schrieb:

>On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:26:21 -0400 Marna Nightingale <marna at marna.ca>
>writes:
>  
>
>>Bart Kemper wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>Women are not required to do so.  As such, males must bear the 
>>>      
>>>
>>burden of being eligible for the draft as a price of citizenship, women
>>    
>>
>are 
>  
>
>>not.
>>    
>>
>
>Women have never been conscripted in any army throughout history, being
>considered "the weaker sex" by men who believe, for the most part, that
>women should never have any part of war. 
>


IIRC female medics and doctors were drafted in USSR during WWII and 
until perestroika female graduates of most univeristies and insitutes 
received the reserve military specialisations or commissions and were 
liable to be called up in the case of  war. It wouldn't surprise me if  
the other Warsaw Block countries had simiilar regulations. Of course 
eventually it became largely a formality in practice....



--------________--------________--------

From rmacdonald at microd.com  Sun Aug  3 00:49:11 2003
From: rmacdonald at microd.com (Richard Macdonald)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 19:49:11 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
References: <20030802.171909.6796.361499@webmail14.nyc.untd.com>
Message-ID: <3F2C4DF7.F4C8A0DA@microd.com>

"Danielle N. Hart" wrote:
> 
> >>And there's  still an ongoing debate about whether or not women should be allowed into combat, as women have been following armies for eons, as nurses, doctors and prostitutes- and don't jump all over me for mentioning that, since it's a long-time tradition. After all, prostitution was the first profession.....>>
> 
>  As far as the question of the "oldest profession", it's sort of a chicken-and-egg thing.  Because the first *customer* was likely a soldier...  I'm part of their number, I'm allowed to speak.
> 
>  Danielle

Why is my old soldier brain getting the strangest ideas from that
statement.

Would that call for changing Lily Marlene to Larry Marlene?
--
Richard A. Macdonald. CPA/EA
SSG (Ret), USA, ADA 16P34
Dedicated follower of Fr Luca Paccioli, Master Juggler.
Delenda est Carthago -- Cato the Elder



--------________--------________--------

From dtilque at nwlink.com  Sun Aug  3 01:28:18 2003
From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 17:28:18 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Re: Soldiering OT:
References: <20030802.144926.506.640938@webmail03.lax.untd.com>
Message-ID: <024901c35956$240d0b40$be7dadcf@nwlink.com>

Kirsten Edwards wrote:

>
> I think the Israeli army did that, and found out (1) Men tend
> to be better soldiers than women both in terms of inclination
> [*] and general ability for most of the combat jobs. (2) When
> men and women are mixed in combat the results are inferior to
> just having men.

Bart or someone who knows more about this may be able to correct
me. In support of item 2, in a mixed unit, the men tend to be too
protective of the women. So they do dumb things that they
wouldn't do if there weren't women in the unit. The same happens
when they are taken prisoner together.

But I also heard that the enemy units fighting the mixed units
tend to fight harder and be more reluctant to surrender. The old
macho thing about not wanting to lose to women. This may be an
urban legend, or at least is a non-quantifiable effect.

--
Dan Tilque



--------________--------________--------

From dtilque at nwlink.com  Sun Aug  3 01:51:36 2003
From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 17:51:36 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Re: Where is Chalion?
References: <6a.338f2c20.2c5d439f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <024f01c35959$6566c060$be7dadcf@nwlink.com>

CatMtn at aol.com wrote:

> Robert A. Woodward writes:
>
>> Chalion is Castile; Ibra is Aragon; Brajar is Portugal; the
>> high March of Yiss is most likely Navarre; and the Roknari is
>> Granada plus north west Africa,
>
> Now, that makes more sense.  And didn't the marriage of
> Ferdinand and Isabella join Aragon and Castile?

Yes and perhaps you weren't aware of it, but CoC is largely based
on Isabella and Ferdinand's courtship/marriage. The result of
Lois taking a history course on Medieval Spain, I think.

>  I still think
> Darthaca is France, though.

It is. Also note that Chalion is in the southern hemisphere and
everything is turned around, both north-south and east-west. That
is, Ibra is to the west of Chalion but Aragon is to the east of
Castile. There's a map (which will appear in PoS) at
http://www.dendarii.com/map.html

--
Dan Tilque



--------________--------________--------

From jwreynold at earthlink.net  Sun Aug  3 03:32:24 2003
From: jwreynold at earthlink.net (James Reynolds)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 22:32:24 -0400
Subject: Subject: [LMB] Young bullies' victims OT:
In-Reply-To: <200308022352.h72NqAj6029428@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B71AEFCE-C55A-11D7-8087-000393BDA014@earthlink.net>

>
>  CatMtn writes:
>
>> some of the boys thought it was fun to harass
>>> and beat up on the girls.  The teachers did little or
>> nothing to stop
>>> this.
>
> Victims of bullies can feel they have little recourse.  The 
> conventional 'wisdom' in these situations is often expressed as:
> 1) Ignore the bullies, they're just doing it to get a reaction from 
> you.
> 2) Don't be a tattletale.
> 3) Parents shouldn't get involved in fighting their children's battles.

	4) "I don't care who started it!"  So the victim is as guilty as the 
bully.

	***  Jim Reynolds



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Sun Aug  3 03:59:07 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 22:59:07 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2698 - 21 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20030802.145630.506.640981@webmail03.lax.untd.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030802225342.027e8910@pop.mindspring.com>

At 09:56 PM 8/2/03 +0000, you wrote:
>Someone wrote: "it's very unladylike to fight, but even
>more unladylike to win."

That was me, and I was speaking of the adult disapproval that got heaped on 
my head for 1)fighting back against bullies, and 2) kicking their asses in 
the process.  Personal experience.

>And that concern tends to have overwhelming influence on
>the young ladies (wh. is as much biology as social
>conditioning, I think).

One would think that it would cross boys' minds as well.  Unless you're 
arguing that the female of the species is more logical than that 
male...which I wouldn't say, myself, necessarily, but wouldn't necessarily 
**dispute**, either.  Not buying biology as an explanation, though.  I 
think that the **physical** differences between men and women **that affect 
behavior** are hard as hell to quantify, and impossible to separate out 
from social/cultural influences.

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From megj at nwlink.com  Sun Aug  3 04:19:16 2003
From: megj at nwlink.com (MegJ)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 20:19:16 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Young male bullies
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030802015903.027ead90@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <019e01c35970$778d3d20$66e84b43@meg>

Sara:
> Actually, you have no idea (or possibly you do) how much being short,
> female, buxom, and having big brown eyes can be simultaneously both a
curse
> and something of an advantage.  People tend to underestimate me.

Actually, Sara's going to have a lot of sympathy for Elli Quinn, too.  Not
because Elli's short (although she does, IIRC, have big brown eyes), but
because she's also used to being underestimated <g>.

Megaera



--------________--------________--------

From megj at nwlink.com  Sun Aug  3 04:35:25 2003
From: megj at nwlink.com (MegJ)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 20:35:25 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Female advantage
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030802135034.027e3440@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <019f01c35970$7830a910$66e84b43@meg>

Sara:
> And if you don' t allow yourself to be pushed, and  insist on
> being listened to, breaking their illusion of tractability, they think
> you're a big ol' bitch.  Complete with air of injured indignation:   "The
> bunny, it BIT me!"

"I was just stunned by an insight, for which I thank you."  Miles, in
Komarr, p. 88.

That explains more about why my three older sisters treat me the way they do
than anything I have come up with in the last ten years.

Megaera



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Sun Aug  3 04:46:46 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 23:46:46 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 unaccounted-for pregnancies
Message-ID: <17f.1ecb6c78.2c5ddfa6@aol.com>

Little Egret writes:

Quoting medic from SoH:
> "Personally, I'd suggest you hang them around their fathers' necks. The
> paternal gene complement is marked on each one, so you should have no
> trouble telling who they belong to. Sign here." 
> 

<If all 16 had the same father, this remark>

> would have been different.

I think you're right.  And if Serg had a thing for pregnant women, they 
wouldn't have _been_ pregnant yet if he was the one doing all the raping.  Also, 
those hazel eyes seem to have been pretty dominant (Ezar, Serg, and Gregor) so 
if all or a large proportion of those 16 orphans had hazel eyes, somebody would 
have wondered.  

BTW, I think Princess Kareen just meant that when she got pregnant she had 
fulfilled her duty to provide an heir, so Ezar protected her from Serg in order 
to protect the heir.  

So--where did those other 16 pregnancies come from?  And if 16 women weren't 
willing to abort, but didn't want their babies, there must have been many 
women who _were_ willing to abort, or who did want their babies.  What happened to 
all their contraceptive implants?

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From YankelAdler8092 at aol.com  Sun Aug  3 05:00:36 2003
From: YankelAdler8092 at aol.com (YankelAdler8092 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 00:00:36 EDT
Subject: [LMB] OT: Conscription
Message-ID: <140.169b2ec3.2c5de2e4@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/1/2003 8:13:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
ginni.berger at juno.com writes:

> Women have never been conscripted in any army throughout history, being
> considered "the weaker sex" by men who believe, for the most part, that
> women should never have any part of war. One reason is that they held the
> homefires and kept them burning. Another was that SOMEONE had to take
> care of the children, and protect the children

Actually, I've never understood this.  All the men of fighting age go off to 
war, and then the women who've never been taught to fight are going to defend 
themselves against marauders?  after all, only the 'honest' men went to war, 
leaving the theives and muggers behind.  Can anyone explain this?

Also I am reminded of hte frontier women who allegedly chased the wolf from 
the henhouse with their trusty iron frying pan, and treated two legged varmints 
the same way.  And got killed for it.

Ziviya



--------________--------________--------

From Pouncer at aol.com  Sun Aug  3 05:06:18 2003
From: Pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 00:06:18 EDT
Subject: [LMB] sherwood and swiftys
Message-ID: <34.3d65ad43.2c5de43a@aol.com>

I'm behind, and beg indulgence.

Re: registration,  good policy might be to enroll all those who, like Kiri, 
are
available and willing should need be, but are NOT willing to enlist full 
time.
Sort of like those leaving active duty have a choice of formal "reserves"
(one weekend a month to knock the rust off) or "inactive ready reserves"
(we've got your files and we wanna know where to find you...)   Such a
voluntary enrollment should come with no privileges at all, in my view,
but should be open to anybody who cares to offer.

Re: numbers of prospective parents versus numbers of "waiting" children.
I note that this, like employment figures, is somewhat skewed. In one
case the parents get undercounted when those seeking a child (like 
those seeking a job) become discouraged  by the hassles of the process 
and drop off the roles. This, the would-be parents only, of course.  The 
waiting kids are on the role until they age-out  at  18.   
In our case, we were only on the roles for a domestic child for
about two years, and never approached the top of the list for an actual
match  

Then we got three kids in five years via overseas adoption. which shows
an opposing skew -- one set of parents might match up in the statistics 
with several waiting children.  If we assume I'm typical (why not, and 
who dares say otherwise?) a system with 300 sets of waiting parents
and 900 waiting children represents a potential one-to-one match in
the family-formation roulette

re: Underestimating Sara.  IIR-semi-C, you revealed your IQ at
your introduction.  Which I fail to remember, cause mine ain't
all that high. But in ANY case, how could any stranger FAIL
to underestimate you -- given that you are so far outside the
expected norms?    I mean, it'd rather be like talking with
somebody, emailing him, and finally belatedly meeting him
in person to discover him seven foot three.  Unless there
was some reason to suppose that, I mean.  

This seems to go to Major Cecil's advice to Miles, which, I
suppose, Sara, you have not gotten to yet. Keep reading.
When you spot it, let us know if you recognize yourself.
We do expect high levels of insight and effort from you, 
you know.

I'm wondering if it's time to do another round of "Tom Swiftys"
this go 'round specific to Bujoldian situations.  Take a great 
line, and ruin it in an appropriately characteristic fashion.
A few examples for starters:

"As long as you're under my care, you will have nothing to do with this 
Vaagen person "

"You're out."  said Cordelia, impatiently.

---

"And the first thing you wanted was my help?" Ivan asked, mulishly.

----

"Ekaterin, here's how to reach me by comconsole, by pager, by fax, by message
service..."  Miles enumerated.

---

"You're Count Vorkosigan's man," Koudelka cried.
"Wrong!", Bothari barked.

---

"I want double the fireworks the next night," Gregor suggested.
"No artificial shortages!" Vorthys boomed.

---



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Sun Aug  3 05:17:19 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 00:17:19 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Female advantage
Message-ID: <18.338d3998.2c5de6cf@aol.com>

Sara A. writes:

> I was more thinking of, in a lot of situations people's estimation of you 
> counts a lot.  You can't show how brilliant and competent you are if they 
> never give you a chance to DO it.  <snip>
> 
> In many ways, what people **believe** about you shapes your options.  I'm 
> good at problem-solving, but I can make a suggestion in a group of people 
> and it won't be listened to; ten minutes later a tall male can make the 
> VERY SAME suggestion and every one will agree it's f*cking brilliant.
> 
My problem was that I was bright, but as lazy as the average adolescent, and 
had big, strong college boys dashing around to keep me from having to lift a 
hand.  I was 16 when I started college, and not particularly mature for my age 
or used to that kind of attention, so I let them.  Then when I went back to 
grad school at age 40+ (and married), I wasn't used to having much in the way of 
hard work expected from me (like studying, or doing anything boring, for 
instance).  It came as a real shock, because as an undergrad all I had ever done 
was what I enjoyed doing, such as writing papers, labs, and doing library 
research.  Even my professors gave me way too much credit for too little effort on 
my part.  It was more like "Oh, isn't she clever--she fixed that piece of lab 
equipment, and she doesn't look like she could operate anything more 
complicated than a lipstick."  I grew up in a hardware store, and didn't consider 
connecting two wires that had obviously become disconnected and taping them 
anything special, but if they wanted to make a fuss over it, I let them.  It was not 
good for me, to say the least.

As a college student, afterward, and into my early thirties, I resembled a 
different kind of bunny--not the four-footed variety.  And it definitely had its 
disadvantages, too, when it came to being taken seriously.  Unfortunately I 
didn't have the good sense to tone things down, which would have helped.  I 
took the attitude so many young women do today--I should be able to wear what I 
wanted, etc.; and never realized I was shooting myself in the foot.

Too soon old and too late smart--
Mary



--------________--------________--------

From YankelAdler8092 at aol.com  Sun Aug  3 05:19:37 2003
From: YankelAdler8092 at aol.com (YankelAdler8092 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 00:19:37 EDT
Subject: [LMB] OT:  the first profession
Message-ID: <63.2091181f.2c5de759@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/2/2003 12:38:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, paal at gis.net 
writes:

> After all, prostitution was the first profession.....

I've always wondered about that.    Given the Book of Genesis as the 
'earliest written text,' i once counted the proffesions as (approximately) 1. 
gardening in Eden.  2.  animal care, same place.  3. parenting, and getting it so 
wrong htat the next proffession is 4. murder/fratricide. 
In the next generation, the professions were, in no particular order, serious 
agriculture, city building, priests, musicians, and a few others i don't 
recall right now.

Ladies of Negotiable Affection  don't show up for quite a few chapters/twenty 
generations later.  Probably gone on before, too, but certainly not  the 
first profession.  

Just my opinion.  
Ziviya



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Sun Aug  3 05:42:23 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 00:42:23 -0400
Subject: [LMB] sherwood and swiftys
In-Reply-To: <34.3d65ad43.2c5de43a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030803001309.027f6bf0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 12:06 AM 8/3/03 -0400, you wrote:
>re: Underestimating Sara.  IIR-semi-C, you revealed your IQ at
>your introduction.  Which I fail to remember, cause mine ain't
>all that high. But in ANY case, how could any stranger FAIL
>to underestimate you -- given that you are so far outside the
>expected norms?

Must have me confused with someone else.  I don't boast about my IQ, on 
principle.  Besides, you're as smart as you **act**.

It's a good point, though.  Only the thing that makes me grit my teeth is 
that smiling patronage; the figurative equivalent of a head-pat.  Which 
goes beyond just not expecting me to be a frickin' genius when they lay 
eyes on me.

 >>Major Cecil's advice to Miles<<

"Given your background, the marvel is that you conceal that little, ah, 
arrogant streak so well."

Well, that's something.  I could have been **much more arrogant** given the 
proper background and training.  :)  But my response to a vaguely similar 
problem is to just not deal with people I don't relate to well, as much as 
possible.  I'm not saying this is the best solution; just that it's the one 
I've had a tendency to choose.

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com  Sun Aug  3 05:51:05 2003
From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 00:51:05 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dorothy Sayers mysteries
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030803005029.00a08840@pop3.norton.antivirus>

I'm thinking about getting these on DVD; what does everyone think of the 
performances of Edward Petherbridge and Harriet Walter?

Thanks!

Jerrie



--------________--------________--------

From paal at gis.net  Sun Aug  3 07:40:54 2003
From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 02:40:54 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: [LMB]Clones in the Nexus, was  Clone law
References: <A752B46B661B7C4FAEE8B736DF87F4A40E1AC4@BRINET.bricare.com>
Message-ID: <07e001c3598a$310a1890$0100a8c0@LAPTOP>

-- Paula Lieberman
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mitch Miller" <mitchmiller at entertainmenttax.com>


> From: "Sara A." <mabonwy at mindspring.com>
>
[snippage]

Rules in the Nexus presumably vary a lot planet to planet regarding clones
etc. -- note the differences between Jackson's Whole and other planets, note
the attitudes on Cetaganda, and Barrayar's attitudes were being pioneered by
Cordelia and Aral.

Hmm, I wonder if Athosians have considered cloning?

> Our laws don't presume the possibility of "forcing" someone to become a
> parent; they are all based on the assumption that children are a highly
> desired thing.
> <snip>
>
> What is your source for this assertion?

There was at least one court case where a couple sued an MD for childrearing
costs, because of a failed sterilization.  The judge ruled in favor of the
MD/threw the case out "because children are blessings, not burdens, to a
couple."

> Mitch Miller
>
> <snip>
> A child's rights aren't affected (these days) by
> "illegitimacy", and they aren't affected by whether they were conceived
the

I think they are, actually, though it's not as much of an issue as it was
formerly.   It's an issue on Barrayar -- note Bothari's sensitivity about
the subject.   It's not an issue on Beta I would expect -- fertility control
being mandatory there.  Illegitimacy on Jackson's Whole is probably a
no-op -- clones and other as -chattel- essential....  The Star Creche has
its own set of rules.  Beta's attitudes towards clones, Cordelia represents.
Dunno about Kline Station.

> usual way or in utero or whatever; a "test tube" baby still has full
> rights, therefore a clone, who is **still** the biological child of both
> parents, would also have full rights, regardless of how they came into
> being.  None of us have a choice about how we got here; therefore our
> rights can't be abrogated based on that.

In the Nexus it seems to vary planet to planet.



--------________--------________--------

From paal at gis.net  Sun Aug  3 08:00:34 2003
From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 03:00:34 -0400
Subject: [LMB] more PoS cover quotes
References: <003b01c35775$d8c0a5c0$0500000a@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <07e201c3598c$effd6340$0100a8c0@LAPTOP>

-- Paula Lieberman
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lois McMaster Bujold" <lbujold at myinfmail.com>


> Heh...
>
>     We sent an ARC to Jennifer Crusie, an author I'd only discovered this
> past spring, and got back a lovely quote.  Too late to get it on the book
> cover, but my editor undertakes to use it in promotion and publicity.  We
> also got a great one from Diana Wynne Jones, which *was* early enough to
> make it onto the jacket copy.
>

What about for the paperback, though???

>     I *suspected* Crusie's and my fandoms might share an overlap ...
> Her books were shoved at me by
> a feminist academic friend from Australia during a visit this spring -- 
Dr.
> Sylvia Kelso, to whom PoS is dedicated, by the by.

[snip]

> I'd taken her to the local two-floor B&N -- being from a fairly

There's one of those about six or seven miles from me.  It's a mile or so
from the hotel Readercon has been at the past three or so years [not next
year, because Readercon, being in July, the concom felt that it would be
better to have the next one in 2005 and instead help work on Noreason 4, at
the end of August next year in Boston....

> small town, the idea of a bookstore with 150,000 volumes on the shelves
that
> was open every night of the week till 11 PM was very heaven to her, and if
> she'd had more room in her suitcase, great damage would have been done.
She

The -really- damaging bookstore is New England Mobile Book Fair, which
discounts most books 20%, has YA hardcovers, remainded Penguin books, lots
of other remainders, and has books arranged mostly by publisher, within
publisher by book title....

Wordworth near Harvard Square is an independent bookstore reduced from what
it formerly was, when it occupied two stories of the building its in and
sold in high volume to the people who came to Harvard Square for books -- 
the reductions probably came from a combination of people who are car-bound
can't easily get into the area, can't find parking quickly, and can't
find -inexpensive- parking nearby.... Cambridge is the land of "parking for
resident permit" signs, THOUSANDS of them, and of high priced garages to
soak everyone else.  It's also where in the summer the main parkway
(Memorial Drive, which is a state road....) is closed to become a pedestrian
mall along the Charles, and the alternatives were NARROWED a couple years
ago -- Massachusetts Avenue through Central Square used to be wider, and
was -narrowed-.  Cambridge is repulsive....  and so people from outside the
immediate environs who drive avoid going there to buy books, instead going
to New England Mobile Book Fair, and/or Barnes & Noble and Borders stores
out in the suburbs with better road access and -free parking-, and did I say
better road access....

> took out her frustrated shopping urges by piling half a dozen of Crusie's
> into my not-unwilling arms and telling me to go read, which I have done.
> There's an level of extra amusement to me in the books because I'm *from*
> the very central Ohio scenes Crusie uses for her settings.  Favorite so
far
> is _Faking it_, though I also liked _Welcome to Temptation_ and _Fast
> Women_.



--------________--------________--------

From carosue at centurytel.net  Sun Aug  3 08:00:51 2003
From: carosue at centurytel.net (House of Unruly Fish)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 01:00:51 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Poor Simon's Almanack - Aug 3
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030802004256.00b5f380@mail.so.centurytel.net>

This Day In Listory:

2002 - Quiet day on the list, mostly general low-key chat about ongoing topics.
2001 - (Digests 4419-21) POSTS FROM LOIS brainstorming about other list 
venues for word of mouth about CoC (4420), explaining pronunciation of 
names found therein, and a sort of RSVP for a local gathering (4421).  And 
of course much CoC discussion from listees!
2000 - (Digests 3510-2) E-publishing discussion, always interesting and new 
as new tech emerges. (OK, so I am prejudiced here.) POST FROM LOIS (3511) 
being a good sport about the SFBC Book of the Year awards that didn't even 
INCLUDE her. (That's me being huffy on her behalf.)  POST FROM LOIS in 3512 
about an interesting book, Women of Other Worlds, which includes an article 
compiled from an exchange of letters between her and Sylvia Kelso about 
Lois's work.
1999 - (Digests 2607-10) ACC discussion brings up the question of how 
Ekaterin knows about rats (in order to call Miles one). Many good ideas are 
put forth. Also, comparative regional prices of movies. Martin Bonham 
shares a POST FROM LOIS from Baen's Bar about which Heyer books she 
recommends to new readers. (2609) Another POST FROM LOIS in 2610 about POV 
and Miles as reliable or un- narrator, and a few replies as well.
1998 - (Digests 1779-81) Paul J. Freitas reports on the birth of the OT: 
marker, established to prevent the need for a second list for Off Topic 
chat.  Coming on top of several days discussion of g*n control, 
infanticide, and treatment of criminals, plus other more cheerful topics, 
its usefulness is apparent.
1997 - (Digest 801) Much title discussion, both Vor and book-
1996 - (Digest 327) Lizah Martin bemoans the difficulty of getting LMB 
books in Belgium.
1995 - (Digests 39-40) More on Baz & Elena and the joys of quiet engineer 
spouses.

Respectfully submitted by,

Susan the Neon Nurse

All the above info collected from:

http://lists.herald.co.uk/old-archives/lois-bujold/

and the New List archives at

<http://lists.herald.co.uk/pipermail/lois-bujold/>http://lists.herald.co.uk/pipermail/lois-bujold/

Additions, corrections or "pieces of quiet" may be sent to carosue at 
centurytel.net



--------________--------________--------

From dtilque at nwlink.com  Sun Aug  3 10:35:02 2003
From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 02:35:02 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 unaccounted-for pregnancies
References: <17f.1ecb6c78.2c5ddfa6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <035101c359a2$84bf2800$be7dadcf@nwlink.com>

CatMtn at aol.com wrote:

> What happened to all their
> contraceptive implants?

Speculation (which is all we can do in this case):

1. That prison commandant had a policy of having the implants
removed as part of the incoming processing. By the time Cordelia
reached it, the negative war news had caused him to rescind that
policy.

2. When I first read it, the idea of an implant made me think of
the Norplant implants, which are inserted just under the skin. If
the Betan ones are similar, some sadist among the rapists could
have removed them with just a knife.

Any other ideas?

--
Dan Tilque



--------________--------________--------

From mduhon at bluemarble.net  Sun Aug  3 12:45:11 2003
From: mduhon at bluemarble.net (Marvant Duhon)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 06:45:11 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT:  the first profession
In-Reply-To: <63.2091181f.2c5de759@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BB525FF7.C355%mduhon@bluemarble.net>

I was taught that Adam was the first taxonomist because he named all the
animals - which occurred before he took up farming. And perhaps the
professions listed as after murder were already practiced by the folks, as
Clarence Darrell put it, over in the next county, whom Cain went to live
with after the murder.
Marvant

> From: YankelAdler8092 at aol.com
> Reply-To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 00:19:37 EDT
> To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> Subject: Re: [LMB] OT:  the first profession
> 
> In a message dated 8/2/2003 12:38:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, paal at gis.net
> writes:
> 
>> After all, prostitution was the first profession.....
> 
> I've always wondered about that.    Given the Book of Genesis as the
> 'earliest written text,' i once counted the proffesions as (approximately) 1.
> gardening in Eden.  2.  animal care, same place.  3. parenting, and getting it
> so 
> wrong htat the next proffession is 4. murder/fratricide.
> In the next generation, the professions were, in no particular order, serious
> agriculture, city building, priests, musicians, and a few others i don't
> recall right now.
> 
> Ladies of Negotiable Affection  don't show up for quite a few chapters/twenty
> generations later.  Probably gone on before, too, but certainly not  the
> first profession.
> 
> Just my opinion. 
> Ziviya
> -- 
> Lois-Bujold mailing list
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold



--------________--------________--------

From lqmiller at ev1.net  Sun Aug  3 13:18:55 2003
From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 07:18:55 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Hugo nominees
In-Reply-To: <006201c35909$6a9bd0c0$6b01a8c0@D6FL1B21>
References: <200308020147.h721lDj6024890@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030803071501.02e036e0@mail.ev1.net>

At 08:19 AM 8/2/2003 -0700, Robert Warnicke wrote:
>I think that is Spider Robinson, not Kim Stanley Robinson....  fun and
>yet sad, I seem to remember the main character starts hanging out at the
>saloon because he tried to save money on a brake job and ended up
>killing his family...

Ah, but that's part of my gripe. Later on Spider developed a "nothing 
really permanently bad shall happen" motif and recanted. An authoritative 
time traveller in a later story assured Jake that it was the _other_ set of 
brakes, fixed by a paid mechanic, which had failed.

Compare the various iterations of the "Stardance" story from a novella 
(where there are dangerous aliens in the universe but a lone heroic figure 
giving her life can scare them off) to novel trilogy (where lone heroic 
figure lives, in fact _everybody_ is going to be immortal, like it or not, 
unless they really work hard at not doing so, and telepathy is going to 
make them all good people.

Louann, who scarcely bothers any more.



--------________--------________--------

From lqmiller at ev1.net  Sun Aug  3 13:21:57 2003
From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 07:21:57 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Cryptonomicon was Spider Robinson (was Hugo
 nominees)
In-Reply-To: <006501c3590b$3de18cd0$6b01a8c0@D6FL1B21>
References: <200308020501.h7251Bj6025755@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030803071912.02dfd950@mail.ev1.net>

At 08:32 AM 8/2/2003 -0700, Robert Warnicke wrote:

>For humor now, mostly look to Neal Stephenson.  Zodiac cracked me up, as
>well as some of the asides and situational stuff in Crypto(unspellable).
>I felt that Crypto(unspellable)got lost somewhere between 1945 and the
>present though.  Bummer.

See above. Note also that a sequel (well, prequel) "Quicksilver" is coming 
out this September or October. The Age of Reason, Isaac Newton, Freemasons, 
Ben Franklin, that sort of thing.

An old joke I used to pull at conventions, late at night when this sort of 
thing seemed funny:

Me: I have a rule; I never trust anyone who can pronounce Necronomi... 
Necromom... Necronini...

The patsy (or accomplice): Necronomicon.

Me: eeek!

Louann



--------________--------________--------

From lqmiller at ev1.net  Sun Aug  3 13:27:27 2003
From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 07:27:27 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Re: Where is Chalion?
In-Reply-To: <024f01c35959$6566c060$be7dadcf@nwlink.com>
References: <6a.338f2c20.2c5d439f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030803072544.02e06850@mail.ev1.net>

At 05:51 PM 8/2/2003 -0700, Dan Tilque wrote:

>CatMtn at aol.com wrote:
>
> > Robert A. Woodward writes:
> >
> >> Chalion is Castile; Ibra is Aragon; Brajar is Portugal; the
> >> high March of Yiss is most likely Navarre; and the Roknari is
> >> Granada plus north west Africa,
> >
> > Now, that makes more sense.  And didn't the marriage of
> > Ferdinand and Isabella join Aragon and Castile?
>
>Yes and perhaps you weren't aware of it, but CoC is largely based
>on Isabella and Ferdinand's courtship/marriage. The result of
>Lois taking a history course on Medieval Spain, I think.

For that reason, and because I just re-read a biography of Catherine of 
Aragon, reading up on Ferdinand and Isabella has become an item on my 
projects list. I do know enough to suspect that Caz's intution before the 
curse was broken, that the curse would affect them in spectacular failures 
by their children, reflects F&I's real history.

Louann



--------________--------________--------

From lqmiller at ev1.net  Sun Aug  3 13:39:04 2003
From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 07:39:04 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dorothy Sayers mysteries
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030803005029.00a08840@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030803073051.02dff6e0@mail.ev1.net>

At 12:51 AM 8/3/2003 -0400, Marty L. Adkins wrote:
>I'm thinking about getting these on DVD; what does everyone think of the 
>performances of Edward Petherbridge and Harriet Walter?

I've got them. Petherbridge's physical appearance is a bit of a shock at 
first if you're used to the gent from the series done in the early 1970's. 
So is his  Bunter, who is much younger than I visualized him. But this is 
mostly in the direction of looking _more_ like the Lord Peter described in 
the books, i.e. thin and not tall with a long bony face approaching the ugly.

Harriet Walter is Harriet Vane to the last detail, looks and manner and 
tones of voice.

The scripts are unavoidably compressed -- cutting out all the code-breaking 
from "Have His Carcase," for example. ("By Jove, Harriet, they did use that 
code I just described to you! And the young fool wrote the key to this 
message in the margin of the coded message!") Also nearly all the subplots 
(no Mr. Jones of Jesus) and red herrings from "Gaudy Night."

Having said that, I think these are well above average for adaptations and 
I've re-watched them a couple of times. One of my favorites is that 
although they edit Miss Climpson a bit in "Strong Poison," it remains 
perfectly clear how she fakes being a psychic medium and the general flavor 
of her personality.

Louann



--------________--------________--------

From lqmiller at ev1.net  Sun Aug  3 13:44:52 2003
From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 07:44:52 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 unaccounted-for pregnancies
In-Reply-To: <035101c359a2$84bf2800$be7dadcf@nwlink.com>
References: <17f.1ecb6c78.2c5ddfa6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030803073920.02e09590@mail.ev1.net>

At 02:35 AM 8/3/2003 -0700, Dan Tilque wrote:
>CatMtn at aol.com wrote:
>
> > What happened to all their
> > contraceptive implants?
>
>Speculation (which is all we can do in this case):
>
>1. That prison commandant had a policy of having the implants
>removed as part of the incoming processing.

I hadn't thought of it at the time I read "Shards," but this speculation 
has some internal plausibility. (For W*b*r fans, compare to the Peep policy 
regarding POW's with bionic eyes and facial nerves.) It's also not unknown 
in warfare (Serbia etc.) for captors to go out of their way to make sure 
female prisoners get pregnant even though there's no immediate advantage to 
the captors in doing so.

Add a dose of Barrayaran misogyny/xenophobia ("It's not NORMAL for those 
bints to be immune to pregnancy, it's a weird offworld custom") and some 
sort of word coming down that there will be unofficial rewards but no 
questions asked for pregnant POW's delivered to Prince Serg's flagship.

Louann



--------________--------________--------

From bujoldjunkie at tds.net  Sun Aug  3 15:16:15 2003
From: bujoldjunkie at tds.net (D Echelbarger)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 09:16:15 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Spider Robinson
References: <200308020147.h721lDj6024890@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <5.2.1.1.0.20030803071501.02e036e0@mail.ev1.net>
Message-ID: <000901c359c9$cceeb380$48eaaad8@tds.net>

Louann said:
 > Later on Spider developed a "nothing
> really permanently bad shall happen"
> motif and recanted.

Thereby apparently destroying the moties whereby
all his characters sought redemption (or
absolution, as one being who was denied it called
it) in Callahan's Bar in the first place.

Feh. I'm glad I stopped reading before I got to
that point.

Lois never pulls that kind of bait-and-switch.

She may have a "better idea" on occasion, but if
she *ever* writes a book where it turns out that
Bothari didn't really rape anybody, and Elena Sr
really did love him until the Barrayarans messed
with her memories of what had happened-- or even
just where Miles only *thought* he cut that ImpSec
courier off at the knees, I'll eat my entire
collection of autographed Bujold. Without salt.

Diane E



--------________--------________--------

From kelts at earthlink.net  Sun Aug  3 15:06:04 2003
From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 07:06:04 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 unaccounted-for pregnancies
In-Reply-To: <035101c359a2$84bf2800$be7dadcf@nwlink.com>
Message-ID: <005b01c359c8$6111e5c0$afc02b04@earthlink.net>

> > What happened to all their
> > contraceptive implants?

Dan wrote 
> Speculation (which is all we can do in this case):
[snip 1]
> 2. When I first read it, the idea of an implant made me think of
> the Norplant implants, which are inserted just under the skin. If
> the Betan ones are similar, some sadist among the rapists could
> have removed them with just a knife.

Well, the Mirena I described as close to a "Betan implant" can be
removed even easier - they describe removing it by pulling on the
strings - they describe having a health professional do so, of course,
but clearly it could come out easily.  Maybe the Betan ones are similar.


Laura Gallagher



--------________--------________--------

From bujoldjunkie at tds.net  Sun Aug  3 15:32:31 2003
From: bujoldjunkie at tds.net (D Echelbarger)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 09:32:31 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dorothy Sayers mysteries
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030803073051.02dff6e0@mail.ev1.net>
Message-ID: <001801c359cc$12d2a120$48eaaad8@tds.net>

Jerry asked about the Petherbridge/Walther
adaptation, as opposed to the Ian Carmichael ones.

Louann said:
>Petherbridge's physical appearance is <snip>
_more_ like
> the Lord Peter described in the books, i.e. thin
and not tall
> with a long bony face approaching the ugly.

Agreed, he _looks_ the part much more than
Carmichael ever did. Although if you're looking
for books-on-tape, I can't recommend the
Carmichael recordsings too highly. They're
marvelous.

I also think Petherbridge's characterization of
Lord Peter is a bit closer to the books. But that
could be because he was the one I saw first.

> Harriet Walter is Harriet Vane to the last
detail,
> looks and manner and  tones of voice.

Absolutely.

> The scripts are unavoidably compressed --
cutting out all the code-breaking
> from "Have His Carcase," for example. ("By Jove,
Harriet, they did use that
> code I just described to you! And the young fool
wrote the key to this
> message in the margin of the coded message!")
Also nearly all the subplots
> (no Mr. Jones of Jesus) and red herrings from
"Gaudy Night."

I think Gaudy Night suffered from this more than
HHC; Mr Pomfret's reaction to Harriet, and Miss
Hillyard's reactions to Peter, were vital to the
changes that took place, and I felt leaving out
the former, and compressing the latter  to the
barest hints, weakened the motivations for those
changes. But I also realized that they were under
some fairly severe time constraints.

> Having said that, I think these are well above
average for adaptations and

Oh, I agree.  I think they're better than most of
the Carmichael ones, which were also severely
compressed for practical reasons. I was severely
disappointed by Murder Must Advertise, not just
because they cut both the cricket match and the
naeroplane scene, but because Carmichael was too
obviously a stout, middle-aged man to pass
effectively as Harlequin.

Oh, BTW, the murderer in Murder Must Advertise is
played by Paul Darrow, the actor whose role in
Blake's Seven Lois has said she loosely based Duv
Galeni on originally, which adds a nice little
fillip to watching it, if you know.  :)

>  Miss Climpson a bit in "Strong Poison," it
remains
> perfectly clear how she fakes being a psychic
medium
> and the general flavor  of her personality.

Oh, yes, that was a marvelous portrayal of Miss
Climpson.

Diane E
who owns all of both series
(amybody up for a Wimseyfest at WorldCon? <G>)



--------________--------________--------

From dreitman at spiritone.com  Sun Aug  3 09:26:49 2003
From: dreitman at spiritone.com (Daniel R. Reitman)
Date: 3 Aug 2003 08:26:49 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Re: The Clone Wars?
In-Reply-To: <200308031101.h73B1Jj6003520@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20030803082649.1.11130.qmail@spiritone.com>

"Paula Lieberman" <paal at gis.net> wrote:

>. . . .

> There was at least one court case where a couple sued an MD for childrearing
> costs, because of a failed sterilization.  The judge ruled in favor of the
> MD/threw the case out "because children are blessings, not burdens, to a
> couple."

>. . . .

The courts are actually divided on this question.  Some states will 
allow a wrongful birth claim in the event of a botched sterilization.

							Dan, ad nauseam



--------________--------________--------

From pgranzeau at cox.net  Sun Aug  3 16:22:10 2003
From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 10:22:10 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Re: Where is Chalion?
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030803072544.02e06850@mail.ev1.net>
References: <024f01c35959$6566c060$be7dadcf@nwlink.com>
 <6a.338f2c20.2c5d439f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030803101615.01dcf020@pop.east.cox.net>

At 07:27 08/03/2003, Louann Miller wrote:
>At 05:51 PM 8/2/2003 -0700, Dan Tilque wrote:
>
>>CatMtn at aol.com wrote:
>>
>> > Robert A. Woodward writes:
>> >
>> >> Chalion is Castile; Ibra is Aragon; Brajar is Portugal; the
>> >> high March of Yiss is most likely Navarre; and the Roknari is
>> >> Granada plus north west Africa,
>> >
>> > Now, that makes more sense.  And didn't the marriage of
>> > Ferdinand and Isabella join Aragon and Castile?
>>
>>Yes and perhaps you weren't aware of it, but CoC is largely based
>>on Isabella and Ferdinand's courtship/marriage. The result of
>>Lois taking a history course on Medieval Spain, I think.
>
>For that reason, and because I just re-read a biography of Catherine of 
>Aragon, reading up on Ferdinand and Isabella has become an item on my 
>projects list. I do know enough to suspect that Caz's intution before the 
>curse was broken, that the curse would affect them in spectacular failures 
>by their children, reflects F&I's real history.

While the heir to their thrones was Juana, who (like all queens named Joan) 
was mad, their grandson was the most powerful man in Europe (Charles II, 
who became the Holy Roman Emperor as Charles V), and for a century, their 
descendants ruled much of Europe.


-- 
Regards, Pete
pgranzeau at cox.net 



--------________--------________--------

From pgranzeau at cox.net  Sun Aug  3 16:23:38 2003
From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 10:23:38 -0500
Subject: [LMB] sherwood and swiftys
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030803001309.027f6bf0@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <34.3d65ad43.2c5de43a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030803102257.01dc19b0@pop.east.cox.net>

At 23:42 08/02/2003, Sara A. wrote:

>Must have me confused with someone else.  I don't boast about my IQ, on 
>principle.  Besides, you're as smart as you **act**.

*sigh*

I must be the stupidest person on earth.


-- 
Regards, Pete
pgranzeau at cox.net 



--------________--------________--------

From ndrosen at erols.com  Sun Aug  3 16:40:57 2003
From: ndrosen at erols.com (Nicholas Rosen)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 11:40:57 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: [LMB]Clones in the Nexus, was  Clone law
Message-ID: <020601c359d5$a60bc080$88372c42@oemcomputer>

Paula Lieberman wrote:

> Hmm, I wonder if Athosians have considered cloning?

"On Athos, cloning is considered a sin."

"What sin?"

"Vanity."

Ethan and Elli in _EofA_, quoting or near-quoting from memory
(no, not from _Memory_).


Regards,
Nicholas Rosen

No taxes, and a pension for everyone. 



--------________--------________--------

From jparish at siue.edu  Sun Aug  3 16:54:25 2003
From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 10:54:25 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Re: Where is Chalion?
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030803072544.02e06850@mail.ev1.net>
References: <024f01c35959$6566c060$be7dadcf@nwlink.com>
Message-ID: <3F2CE9E1.31229.17C9AC0@localhost>

Louann Miller wrote:

> I do know enough to suspect that Caz's intution
> before the curse was broken, that the curse would affect them in
> spectacular failures by their children, reflects F&I's real history.

Pretty well, in fact. One of their children (Juana) went mad; one (Juan) 
died childless, and the death of another (Isabella) was followed by the 
death of her only child; and Catharine could reasonably be described 
as dying in exile. (They did have one other daughter, Maria, who AFAIK 
had a reasonably satisfactory life; she married Manuel I of Portugal - 
who had been widowed by her sister Isabella - and had nine children.)

Jim Parish



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Sun Aug  3 17:06:37 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:06:37 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: Where is Chalion?
Message-ID: <1d1.ea8b695.2c5e8d0d@aol.com>

Dan Tilque writes:

> Yes and perhaps you weren't aware of it, but CoC is largely based
> on Isabella and Ferdinand's courtship/marriage. The result of
> Lois taking a history course on Medieval Spain, I think.
> 
I didn't realize that Ferdinand and Isabella had experienced such an exciting 
courtship--I knew that the books had come out of a history course on Medieval 
Spain, though.  I'll have to read up on that.

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Sun Aug  3 17:23:26 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:23:26 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 pregnancies
Message-ID: <54.16940e90.2c5e90fe@aol.com>

Dan Tilque writes:

> Any other ideas?
> 
The only one that would make sense to me is that they had to be periodically 
renewed and weren't while the women were prisoners.  Or maybe they weren't 
compulsory on Escobar, although they were obviously known, since Serg removed 
them from _his_ victims.  Most rapists would prefer their victims un-pregnant, I 
would think.  Or maybe not, who knows.

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Sun Aug  3 17:32:41 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:32:41 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Test scores
Message-ID: <146.168ccfc6.2c5e9329@aol.com>

Sara A. writes:

> Must have me confused with someone else.  I don't boast about my IQ, on 
> principle.  Besides, you're as smart as you **act**.
> 
Hm--I think that was me.  I wasn't boasting, I was commenting that test 
scores (never confuse them with true intelligence) don't always have a lot to do 
with later success in life, of which I am a pretty good example.  They can also 
attract a lot of negative attention from the bullies in the lower grades.

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net  Sun Aug  3 17:28:14 2003
From: kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net (Jill Wyrtham)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 10:28:14 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 pregnancies
In-Reply-To: <54.16940e90.2c5e90fe@aol.com>
References: <54.16940e90.2c5e90fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F2D381E.6070106@comcast.net>

>
>
>Most rapists would prefer their victims un-pregnant, I 
>would think.  Or maybe not, who knows.
>  
>

Rape isn't about sex, it is about power. To a society where pregnancy 
*never* happens unless a woman wants it to, forcing one to become 
pregnant against her will would logically be a demonstration of power 
beyond even the violation of the rape itself.

Jill

-- 
**Sig Error 404: Clever Sig Not Found***



--------________--------________--------

From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Sun Aug  3 18:04:50 2003
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 13:04:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dorothy Sayers mysteries
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030803005029.00a08840@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0308031303460.31741-100000@pannier.cfsc.ottaw
 a.on.ca>

On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Marty L. Adkins wrote:
> I'm thinking about getting these on DVD; what does everyone think of the
> performances of Edward Petherbridge and Harriet Walter?

IMHO the performances (and appearances) of the actors were fine, but the
scriptwriters should have been keelhauled -- especially for what they did
to _Gaudy Night_.

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca

"I believe God is a librarian. I believe that literature is holy ... it is that best part of
our souls that we break off and give each other, and God has a special dispensation for it,
angels to guard its making and its preservation." -- Sarah Smith, _Chasing Shakespeares_



--------________--------________--------

From lbujold at myinfmail.com  Sun Aug  3 18:11:59 2003
From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:11:59 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Re: Where is Chalion?
Message-ID: <000d01c359e2$5ed05b60$0500000a@oemcomputer>

CatMtn at aol.com CatMtn at aol.com
Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:06:37 EDT
Dan Tilque writes:

> Yes and perhaps you weren't aware of it, but CoC is largely based
> on Isabella and Ferdinand's courtship/marriage. The result of
> Lois taking a history course on Medieval Spain, I think.
>
I didn't realize that Ferdinand and Isabella had experienced such an
exciting
courtship--I knew that the books had come out of a history course on
Medieval
Spain, though.  I'll have to read up on that.

Mary

    Their early lives were really extraordinary, and quite adventurous.

    Recommended: the recent  _Isabella the Queen_ by Peggy Liss.  You'll
likely have to hit interlibrary loan for it, as it's on the academic side,
though very readable.  Prescott's three-volume history is also good, but
very 19th C. and hard to obtain.

    The two incidents of Ferdy's sneaky ride into a hostile Castille to wed
Isabella that I really wanted to work in, but didn't have space, are where
Ferdinand, disguised as his party's groom, nearly got beaned by a stone
someone threw over a castle wall before they were identified and let in, and
how one of his retainers managed to leave the party's purse with all their
funds on the table at an inn at which they stayed.  It was really quite a
covert operation, in its way; nearly Milesean, right down to the gaffes.

    Ta, Lois.



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Sun Aug  3 19:02:54 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 14:02:54 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Test scores
In-Reply-To: <146.168ccfc6.2c5e9329@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030803135405.027fadd0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 12:32 PM 8/3/03 -0400, you wrote:
>  I was commenting that test
>scores (never confuse them with true intelligence) don't always have a lot 
>to do
>with later success in life, of which I am a pretty good example.

My personal theory is that this is because people's self-confidence gets 
trashed....you get all the negatives of being singled out (like being 
bullied) but few actual advantages.  Whatever you achieve academically is 
taken as a matter of course.

I know lots and lots of down-trodden geniuses, people who are really smart 
but with the self-esteem of a turnip.  I decided that I was going to go out 
of my way to build up my son's self-confidence....

I have occasionally been inspired to wish privately that I had gone for 
**docile** and paid for therapy later....but it seems to be working 
ok.  Except the school system itself works against me.

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu  Sun Aug  3 19:12:01 2003
From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (Andrew Lambdin-Abraham)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 13:12:01 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 pregnancies
In-Reply-To: <54.16940e90.2c5e90fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FAA9CD76-C5DD-11D7-9D97-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu>

On Sunday, August 3, 2003, at 11:23  AM, CatMtn at aol.com wrote:

> Or maybe they weren't
> compulsory on Escobar, although they were obviously known, since Serg 
> removed
> them from _his_ victims.

That was my operative assumption, that Escobar, being very much 
not-Beta, wouldn't have the same reproduction laws, and that therefore 
there were Escobarran women who did not have implants for a variety of 
reasons.

Andrew



--------________--------________--------

From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com  Sun Aug  3 19:38:38 2003
From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 14:38:38 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Female advantage
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030803143117.00a380f0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Sara propounds:

 > In many ways, what people **believe** about you shapes your options. I'm
 > good at problem-solving, but I can make a suggestion in a group of people
 > and it won't be listened to; ten minutes later a tall male can make the
 > VERY SAME suggestion and every one will agree it's f*cking brilliant.

And here I thought this dynamic was unique to my gaming buddies!  Thanks 
for mentioning this, Sara.

To tie in the bunny analogy Meg is enjoying, I think it may have something 
to do with expectation.  My gaming buddies just couldn't believe that the 
occasional military idea could be coming from the lips of a *French* major, 
of all things.  Everyone has a role they play [and not just in gaming, 
either ;(].  In my family, I was viewed as the prototypical brilliant arts 
and humanities airhead, with insufficient sense to avoid inclement 
weather.  Not true, of course, although I have at times used that 
perception to my advantage. ;)

The problem is, paradigms are so pernicious and insidious, after a while, 
it becomes a question of who put you into the carefully-labeled box and who 
is keeping you there, you, "them", or an unholy concatenation thereof.

Jerrie



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Sun Aug  3 19:56:46 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 14:56:46 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Test scores
Message-ID: <137.233e9f44.2c5eb4ee@aol.com>

Sara A. writes:

> My personal theory is that this is because people's self-confidence gets 
> trashed....you get all the negatives of being singled out (like being 
> bullied) but few actual advantages.  Whatever you achieve academically is 
> taken as a matter of course.
> 
I don't think it's exactly trashed self-confidence.  You just learn that you 
have to blend into the woodwork to keep from getting beaten up, especially if 
you've skipped grades and are smaller and younger than your classmates.  
Then--you learn that it's easier as well as safer to be mediocre.  And you're right 
about any academic achievement being taken for granted.  Sounds like you're 
on the right track with your son, too, although I can see that it could cause 
temporary inconvenience!   After all, bright kids are not necessarily 
emotionally mature, and often not tactful about being smarter than some adults.

Personally, I think the thing I regret most is that nobody ever insisted to 
me that I should pick one subject and focus on it--if you're good at a lot of 
things, everybody somehow assumes that when you get older, you'll find your 
_real_ interest, and some of us never do.

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com  Sun Aug  3 19:58:17 2003
From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 14:58:17 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dorothy Sayers mysteries on DVD
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030803144744.00a3c6f0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Thanks for the detailed commentaries, Louann, Diane E., and Alayne!

Jerrie the newly-informed 



--------________--------________--------

From Robert at WarnickeLittler.com  Sun Aug  3 20:04:30 2003
From: Robert at WarnickeLittler.com (Robert Warnicke)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:04:30 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Spider Robinson
In-Reply-To: <200308031813.h73IDKj6005091@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <004101c359f2$11e27f80$6b01a8c0@D6FL1B21>

Diane E wrote:
 
> She may have a "better idea" on occasion, but if
> she *ever* writes a book where it turns out that
> Bothari didn't really rape anybody, and Elena Sr
> really did love him until the Barrayarans messed
> with her memories of what had happened-- or even
> just where Miles only *thought* he cut that ImpSec
> courier off at the knees, I'll eat my entire
> collection of autographed Bujold. Without salt.


Oh really, I suggest you not tempt Her.  She already helped Miles mental
anguish once by having him discover that he could not grab hold of a
full grown woman and keep her from falling out of a jammed shuttle door
(or off a bridge).   :o

So what if she would like to see you eat your collection?  :)
--------
Robert W

 



--------________--------________--------

From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca  Sun Aug  3 20:10:44 2003
From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James Burbidge)
Date: 03 Aug 2003 15:10:44 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Cryptonomicon was Spider Robinson (was Hugo
 nominees)
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030803071912.02dfd950@mail.ev1.net>
References: <200308020501.h7251Bj6025755@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <5.2.1.1.0.20030803071912.02dfd950@mail.ev1.net>
Message-ID: <1059937846.1424.1.camel@linux>

On Sun, 2003-08-03 at 08:21, Louann Miller wrote:
> At 08:32 AM 8/2/2003 -0700, Robert Warnicke wrote:
> 
> An old joke I used to pull at conventions, late at night when this sort of 
> thing seemed funny:
> 
> Me: I have a rule; I never trust anyone who can pronounce Necronomi... 
> Necromom... Necronini...
> 
> The patsy (or accomplice): Necronomicon.
> 
> Me: eeek!

Shouldn't that be "Hastur"?

There's no problem with pronouncing the name of the Necronomicon, IIRC. 
Just reading it.



--------________--------________--------

From altpouncer at yahoo.com  Sun Aug  3 20:10:34 2003
From: altpouncer at yahoo.com (POUNCER)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:10:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [LMB] more swifties
In-Reply-To: <200308031813.h73IDKj6005091@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20030803191034.10474.qmail@web11403.mail.yahoo.com>

Sara, I apologize for confusing you
with Mary re: IQ.

You:> I decided that I was going to go 
>out of my way to build up my son's self-confidence....

>I... wish privately that I had gone for 
>**docile**...but it seems to be working ok. 
> Except the school system itself works 
>against me.

Advantage, homeschool.


---
"Draw up some sort document making that Vorkosigan
fellow Regent,"  Ezar dictated.

---

"The mass detector says there's nothing
behind the bulkhead but another bulkhead.
No trouble getting OUR contraband thru
the blockade!"  Miles said, smugly.

---

"I'll be sure to settle my accounts promptly,"
Thur Ochs joked, hamming it up.

---



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com



--------________--------________--------

From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca  Sun Aug  3 20:14:35 2003
From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James Burbidge)
Date: 03 Aug 2003 15:14:35 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Spider Robinson
In-Reply-To: <000901c359c9$cceeb380$48eaaad8@tds.net>
References: <200308020147.h721lDj6024890@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <5.2.1.1.0.20030803071501.02e036e0@mail.ev1.net>
 <000901c359c9$cceeb380$48eaaad8@tds.net>
Message-ID: <1059938077.1424.5.camel@linux>

On Sun, 2003-08-03 at 10:16, D Echelbarger wrote:
> Louann said:
>  > Later on Spider developed a "nothing
> > really permanently bad shall happen"
> > motif and recanted.
> 

Yep.  See _Stardance_, _Mindkiller_, and just about everything else.

> Thereby apparently destroying the moties whereby
> all his characters sought redemption (or
> absolution, as one being who was denied it called
> it) in Callahan's Bar in the first place.
> 

Moties?  No, destroying the Moties was Niven and Pournelle in _The
Gripping Hand_, one of the Sequels Which Never Happened.



--------________--------________--------

From g.cogman at ntlworld.com  Sun Aug  3 20:10:44 2003
From: g.cogman at ntlworld.com (Genevieve Cogman)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 20:10:44 +0100
Subject: [LMB] OT: Spider Robinson
Message-ID: <004401c359f2$f0664de0$72c06051@q1e2t6>

>On Sun, 2003-08-03 at 10:16, D Echelbarger wrote:
>> Louann said:
>>  > Later on Spider developed a "nothing
>> > really permanently bad shall happen"
>> > motif and recanted.
>> Thereby apparently destroying the moties whereby
>> all his characters sought redemption (or
>> absolution, as one being who was denied it called
>> it) in Callahan's Bar in the first place.

Though I suppose that one could argue the look back in time only proves that
he didn't actually cause that specific crash. It didn't prove that a crash
caused by his fiddling with the brakes might not have occurred at some other
time. If one assumes Jake's judgement (that his fiddling with the brakes was
less than perfect) _was_ accurate, then he didn't bear guilt for that
specific crash, but he had done something which (but for the timing of the
situation) could have at any time caused such a crash.

Like a man who fires randomly with a gun, and later finds his wife within
range with a bullet in her. Even if it wasn't his shooting, _it could have
been_.

Or perhaps I'm being overly specific in my requirements for guilt.

Genevieve



--------________--------________--------

From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com  Sun Aug  3 20:32:28 2003
From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 15:32:28 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Ferengi fun
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030803153034.009f55e0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Marty just noticed, we're such ferengi hereabouts, our *cat* even plays 
with cash!  [ok, she chases coins that have dropped on the floor, but 
still...]  :)

Jerrie, looking forward to perpetrating indignities on Mr. Bernardi, just 
for fun

P. S.  Everyone needs to vote for Seattle for the NASFIC, so we can go out 
there & hang out with Meg and the Seattle Susans.



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Sun Aug  3 21:06:58 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 16:06:58 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Spider Robinson
In-Reply-To: <004401c359f2$f0664de0$72c06051@q1e2t6>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030803155635.027fc320@pop.mindspring.com>

At 08:10 PM 8/3/03 +0100, you wrote:
>Like a man who fires randomly with a gun, and later finds his wife within
>range with a bullet in her. Even if it wasn't his shooting, _it could have
>been_.


Or, there could have been nothing wrong with his repair at all.  Some 
people have a thirst for guilt.  I'm not sure that having someone come 
along later and explain that it wasn't really his fault was necessarily a 
cop-out; it just adds an ironic twist.   I think my father felt guilty his 
whole life for not insisting that his father, whom he feared and revered, 
let a doctor examine him; my grandfather died in 1935 of influenza.  Never 
mind that a lot of people died of that during that time period, and that my 
father couldn't have known that his father was really that sick.  Logic 
doesn't enter into these things; what people feel guilty for, and what 
they're actually accountable for, don't necessarily or even **often** coincide.

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From m.dolbear at lineone.net  Sun Aug  3 14:48:24 2003
From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 14:48:24 +0100
Subject: [LMB] Re: [LMB]Clones in the Nexus, was  Clone law
Message-ID: <E19jPBV-000Hny-U9@mk-smarthost-3.mail.uk.tiscali.com>

> From: Paula Lieberman <paal at gis.net>
> Date: 03 August 2003 07:40

> Rules in the Nexus presumably vary a lot planet to planet regarding
clones
[...]
> Hmm, I wonder if Athosians have considered cloning?

In [EoA ch 7 ]

"Ugh," said Ethan, revolted. "On Athos, cloning yourself is considered a
sin." 
She raised her eyebrows. "Oh, yeah? What sin?" 
"Vanity." 
"Didn't know that was a sinoh, well. 


Little Egret



--------________--------________--------

From joasia at fandom.art.pl  Sun Aug  3 21:11:16 2003
From: joasia at fandom.art.pl (Jo'Asia)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 22:11:16 +0200
Subject: [LMB] OT: Spider Robinson
In-Reply-To: <000901c359c9$cceeb380$48eaaad8@tds.net>
References: <200308020147.h721lDj6024890@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <5.2.1.1.0.20030803071501.02e036e0@mail.ev1.net>
 <000901c359c9$cceeb380$48eaaad8@tds.net>
Message-ID: <727862397.20030803221116@galaxy.uci.agh.edu.pl>

My comconsole brought me this letter from D Echelbarger:

DE> She may have a "better idea" on occasion, but if
DE> she *ever* writes a book where it turns out that
DE> Bothari didn't really rape anybody, and Elena Sr
DE> really did love him until the Barrayarans messed
DE> with her memories of what had happened

Not Barrayarans! Escobaran version of good doctor Meta!

Jo'Asia

-- 
  __.-=-.          joasia at fandom.art.pl         Joanna Slupek        .-=-.__
   --<()>     http://bujold.fantastyka.net/   http://esensja.pl/     <()>--
  .__.'|    ......................................................     |'.__. 
             You can't have everything, where would you put it?



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Sun Aug  3 21:20:03 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 16:20:03 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Test scores
In-Reply-To: <137.233e9f44.2c5eb4ee@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030803161348.027f8300@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:56 PM 8/3/03 -0400, you wrote:
>I don't think it's exactly trashed self-confidence.  You just learn that you
>have to blend into the woodwork to keep from getting beaten up,

Hmm.  I think the message "it's not safe to be yourself", reinforced with 
violence, is inevitably going to mess with your head.  I don't see how it 
couldn't.  I think a lot of us are still trying to blend in, not achieve 
too much so we won't get pounded, long after that reflex has become 
maladaptive.

>Personally, I think the thing I regret most is that nobody ever insisted to
>me that I should pick one subject and focus on it--if you're good at a lot of
>things, everybody somehow assumes that when you get older, you'll find your
>_real_ interest, and some of us never do.


I don't think that's a bad thing, either; I think people are too 
specialized.  Not being able to pick ONE thing was why I majored in 
anthropology.  And if you're a writer, having a lot of varied interests and 
pockets of expertise is an advantage.

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From jparish at siue.edu  Sun Aug  3 21:53:10 2003
From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 15:53:10 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Test scores
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030803161348.027f8300@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <137.233e9f44.2c5eb4ee@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F2D2FE6.8946.28E1D5E@localhost>

Sara A. wrote:

> I don't think that's a bad thing, either; I think people are too
> specialized.

And people tend to expect people to be specialized. I remember an 
occasion, back when I was a grad student... Another math grad and I 
were doing the washing-up after a communal dinner at the Catholic 
student center, and I was describing something (probably rather banal) 
I had noticed about variation of meter in a certain song by Carly Simon. 
The priest happened to wander in in the middle of this, shook his head, 
and said, "You guys aren't supposed to know anything about that!" I just 
shrugged. (The other guy denied any knowledge of the subject.)

C. S. Lewis says something, somewhere, to the effect that "we all think 
we have each other typed." *Real* people will always surprise you.

Jim Parish



--------________--------________--------

From jbryant at iee.org  Sun Aug  3 21:46:43 2003
From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:46:43 +0100
Subject: [LMB] 16 Pregnancies
In-Reply-To: <200308031101.h73B1Dj6003517@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030803214107.00b03148@pop.luna.co.uk>

Mary says:-

 >And if 16 women weren't willing to ab*rt,
 >but didn't want their babies, there must
 >have been many women who _were_ willing
 >to abort, or who did want their babies.

Not necessarily - Escobar, with a Hispanic
heritage, may well be a Roman Catholic society
and opposed to ab*rtion - with the uterine
replicator a r*pe victim has alternatives which
do not involve the death of the child.
You can be pro life AND pro choice.

James - who does not want to start a flame war



--------________--------________--------

From d_reykova at juno.com  Sun Aug  3 22:28:19 2003
From: d_reykova at juno.com (Danielle N. Hart)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 21:28:19 GMT
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dorothy Sayers mysteries
Message-ID: <20030803.172823.22233.1259002@webmail06.nyc.untd.com>

 I only have Gaudy Night on DVD, but I rather liked it once I got past the condensed script.  I did rather miss Jerry, but that's just personal preference.

 Danielle

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!



--------________--------________--------

From maia.b at aon.at  Sun Aug  3 23:04:58 2003
From: maia.b at aon.at (Maia)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:04:58 +0200
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 unaccounted-for pregnancies
In-Reply-To: <3F2BA8AD.E8DEFA64@erols.com>
References: <c9.362aaf22.2c5c70af@aol.com> <3F2BA8AD.E8DEFA64@erols.com>
Message-ID: <3F2D870A.7060006@aon.at>

Alexandra Haropulos schrieb:

>
>Why would there need to be an "official story" at all,
>unless there was a time bomb in here? I think Gregor has a
>lot of bastard half-brothers and sisters he knows nothing
>about.
>
>I also think Lois set this one up for herself, but the
>stories haven't taken thatdirection, and the sibs are
>quietly buried under the Next Best Thing.
>  
>

Well, according to Elena Sr. Serg was homosexual and normally waited for 
Vorrutier to provide him with pregnant women. And IMHO it would have 
been a terrible idea to let Gregor's hypothetical  illegitimate 
half-sibs to go to the orphanage. Though bastards, they would have had 
some sort of blood claim  and could have been used by enemies of the 
Imperium. Escobarans, for one, would have already known of the kids' 
existence as they have had both mapped the genomes of the fathers and 
gotten the testimony of the victims. IMHO, if any of the kids had been 
Serg's,  they'd have been either terminated  or publicly anknowledged as 
Serg's bastards and raised together with Gregor. Anything else would 
have been courting trouble. I am sure that it was common enough on old 
Barrayar for a soldier to make a few bastards while on campaign and what 
would have been one more lie in the mountain of lies?
Morever, once Gregor went through true accounts of Serg's behaviour, he 
couldn't fail to check if  he had any relatives on the wrong side of the 
sheets.

As to who were the fathers? Not Serg. Not Vorrutier in all likelyhood - 
Elena Sr. said that he usually didn't rape the women himself because 
Serg was jealous. OTOH, I doubt that there was lack of volonteers in a 
force commanded by by such bad eggs. IMHO, the nasty guard who conducted 
Cordelia to Vorrutier very likely was one such willing accomplice.

As to why other rapists, i.e. from the POW camp would have  had the 
women's implanatats  removed  -  probably to "teach their place" to 
females who dared to "play soldier". While Escobar may not be Beta I 
can't imagine that a futuristic military wouldn't require some form of 
long-term contraception from its soldiers, at least at the time of war. 



--------________--------________--------

From YankelAdler8092 at aol.com  Sun Aug  3 23:35:27 2003
From: YankelAdler8092 at aol.com (YankelAdler8092 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 18:35:27 EDT
Subject: women fighting, was Re: [LMB] OT: Conscription
Message-ID: <12.34394635.2c5ee82f@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/1/2003 10:01:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
mabonwy at mindspring.com writes:

> a lot of women 
> freeze up and don't defend themselves in situations where they could and 
> should:  a lifetime of conditioning that "good girls don't 
> fight".   Learned helplessness.

IIRC, One of the Darkover bookds dealt with theat -- a Terran woman had to go 
through Amazon traning, and the first fighting session dealt exclusively with 
teaching the girls not to wait to be rescued.

its pretty sad that such helplessness is assumed to continue into the stars.

Ziviya



--------________--------________--------

From RosinaRowantree at aol.com  Sun Aug  3 23:36:03 2003
From: RosinaRowantree at aol.com (RosinaRowantree at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 18:36:03 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: [LMB]Clones in the Nexus, was  Clone law
Message-ID: <b9.34a06bf8.2c5ee853@aol.com>

I have been away for a week, while the enthralling "unwilling parenthood" 
debate ran through its courteous if deep-felt course.  I have noted the pizza 
call on current law/practice, but understand that we are still able to discuss 
the situation vis-a-vis clones and in particular clones in the Vorkosiverse.

Paula Liebermann wonders "if Athosians have considered cloning?"


I was going to point out that Ethan said that it was the sin of vanity, but I 
have been beaten to it.

On the general topic, I think that the rule Cordelia cited (law on Beta) was 
that the person who "orders" the clone has the responsibility of bringing it 
up.  The biological parents or the progenitor (if they did not order it), may 
have rights, but no responsibility - they could claim the child as theirs, and 
the law would decide (a bit of Solomon's justice may be required), but they 
could not be required to support it.  The alternative might result in a way to 
bankrupt someone - get half-a-dozen, or more, clones which the biological 
parent would have to maintain in a suitable fashion.  Since there is no way to 
avoid being the victim of such a scam, the law must protect the "parents".  
Particularly on Beta, where the number of children permitted is limited, it would 
not be right that all one's allowance was taken up by someone else cloning you 
or your child.

Someone suggested that creating a clone of rich Lord Vorecks (rich but with a 
slow but fatal illness) would be pointless, since the benefit would be to the 
child, not to the creator.  But a child could be raised to feel gratitude 
towards his creator, and be willing to share his good fortune with the man who 
made it possible.  

Rosina



--------________--------________--------

From WaWenri at aol.com  Mon Aug  4 00:36:07 2003
From: WaWenri at aol.com (WaWenri at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 19:36:07 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Reading as a coping mechanism, was Memory...and
Message-ID: <48.2073502a.2c5ef667@aol.com>

Jill Wyrtham writes:

> Curious article on Foxnews web site; it seems that Mr. Clancy didn't write 
> *any* of his supposed novels (or at least the article purports to show this). 
> I found out about it (via someone who knew him personally) from someone else 
> about two years ago and haven't read any of his stuff since.

Reminds me of a scholar who spent his life proving that the Iliad and Odyssey 
where not written by Homer, but by another ancient Greek with the same name. 
;-)

Seriously, I don't care who wrote the story. I read it when I'm angry to help 
me get over the hurt.

Also, in the collaborations between actors and writers (JOAT, please comment 
if you wish), I don't care who wrote the most text. I'm interested in a good 
story.

Bill Wenrich



--------________--------________--------

From bujoldjunkie at tds.net  Mon Aug  4 01:42:35 2003
From: bujoldjunkie at tds.net (D Echelbarger)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 19:42:35 -0500
Subject: [LMB]  improbable plot twists (was OT: Spider Robinson)
References: <004101c359f2$11e27f80$6b01a8c0@D6FL1B21>
Message-ID: <001a01c35a21$4c789f60$48eaaad8@tds.net>

I promised that if Lois ever decided to rewrite
her stories such that certain bad choices by
various characters turned out never to have
happened,
> >  I'll eat my entire collection of autographed
> > Bujold. Without salt.

Rob said:
> Oh really, I suggest you not tempt Her.

Actually, since she's already said that any idea
we come up with will be deemed "too obvious" to
use in a plot, you could say I've just guaranteed
that we'll *never* have to read that particular
horror.  :)

> So what if she would like to see you eat your
collection?  :)

I'd have to get her to autograph another entire
set for me, I guess.   Which, given how many
novels she's written so far, would probably cause
her hand to cramp, thus giving me vicarious
revenge.   ;-)

Diane E
not worried



--------________--------________--------

From ginni.berger at juno.com  Mon Aug  4 01:29:26 2003
From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 20:29:26 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Test scores
Message-ID: <20030803.205157.636.0.ginni.berger@juno.com>

On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:32:41 EDT CatMtn at aol.com writes:

> > Hm--I think that was me.  I wasn't boasting, I was commenting that 
> test 
> scores (never confuse them with true intelligence) don't always have 
> a lot to do 
> with later success in life, of which I am a pretty good example.  
> They can also 
> attract a lot of negative attention from the bullies in the lower 
> grades.
> 
> Mary

My parents always told me I had a high iq, but wouldn't tell me what it
was(very frustrating). All I know is that I was reading books on a
college level in 5th grade, and my teacher wouldn't believe I'd actually
read it after doing a book report on it. It was something like
"Archeology- a History" by Anne Terry White, and my mom made her sit me
down and ask me questions about the book, which I did- in great detail,
so I got an "A" on that report. I also had a problem with a classmate in
3rd grade, who tattled our teacher that I'd read one paragraph, looked at
the picture, and turned the page. Mrs. Conroy had to explain to him that
I'm a very fast reader, and she knew this because she'd tested my
comprehension just a few days earlier. And I did attract a lot of
attention from bullies, being diagnosed with fibromyalgia and asthma when
I was 10, so I couldn't do the same things my classmates did, so I always
had my nose in a book. It's amazing how much science you can pick up from
scifi books, and how it turns you to other interesting subjects by being
mentioned in a book. Unfortunately, this means I knew what a brothel was
before I hit 8th grade<sigh> Our teacher was telling us what Shakespeare
really meant when Hamlet told Ophelia "Get thee to a nunnery," he wasn't
telling us that she should join a convent. Nunneries were brothels. I did
get the respect from my classmates that I knew something so racey for
that age<grin, wink>. I was still a target for bullies, though, until I
hit college. Books helped me to not get so upset I was being hit from
behind with bb's shot from a pea shooter in the school halls. And since I
worked in the school office as a student aide, I was delighted to be
filing the suspension slips for the boys who'd picked on me;-)

Ginnilee
Lady Lavender of Teal



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Mon Aug  4 02:20:02 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 21:20:02 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Specialization
Message-ID: <17a.1e7a948f.2c5f0ec2@aol.com>

Jim Parish writes:

> I had noticed about variation of meter in a certain song by Carly Simon. 
> The priest happened to wander in in the middle of this, shook his head, 
> and said, "You guys aren't supposed to know anything about that!" I just 
> shrugged. (The other guy denied any knowledge of the subject.)
> 
My favorite math prof in college also composed music, and one of my 
music-major friends complained that some of her courses were more math than music.  
Personally, I think the two subjects are pretty closely related, especially when 
you get into theory of music.  I wonder if the other guy was telling the 
truth?

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From WaWenri at aol.com  Mon Aug  4 02:30:05 2003
From: WaWenri at aol.com (WaWenri at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 21:30:05 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Test scores
Message-ID: <116.26ef86e2.2c5f111d@aol.com>

Sara A. writes:

> Hmm.  I think the message "it's not safe to be yourself", reinforced with 
> violence, is inevitably going to mess with your head.  I don't see how it 
> couldn't.  I think a lot of us are still trying to blend in, not achieve 
> too much so we won't get pounded, long after that reflex has become 
> maladaptive.

I always did well on tests, I was at least 3 months younger than the rest of 
my classmates (Not from skipping grades. In Pennsylvania, the school cutoff 
was December 31 and in Albuquerque it was September 1.) and I was a "late 
bloomer." I didn't reach my full height and weight until my early twenties.

I used to say that I was beat up after school most days until I kneed my 
attacker in the nose. However, that didn't solve the problem, only cut down the 
frequency.  Since I was the junior that sophomore's could bully, they did.

I don't have an answer. Parental/authority figure involvement doesn't usually 
help. A boarding school 6-8 grades REALLY didn't help. The only thing that 
helped me was finally outgrowing the problem.

Bill Wenrich



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Mon Aug  4 02:29:02 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:29:02 -0400
Subject: [LMB] The Warrior's Apprentice
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030803212151.027e5020@pop.mindspring.com>

Character name synchronicity:  I named a character in my book Bal.  I was 
thinking Baal, as his people are vaguely north/west African...kind of 
loosely based on a combination of the Phoenicians and the Yoruba....

Heh.  Miles starts out trying to prove something, lands himself in a pile 
of absurd trouble, manages to wriggle his way out of it again.  I get the 
impression that happens a lot.

So, how did Cordelia ever make up with Beta Colony?  When last seen, they 
were trying to arrest and therapize her...and thought she was a programmed 
spy.  I expect it wouldn't have been that hard, what with diplomatic 
immunity and all, it's just the kind of thing I wonder about.  The spy part 
would have made it trickier.

Sara

"Evolution is Nature's way of redecorating."  --me



--------________--------________--------

From kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net  Mon Aug  4 02:52:12 2003
From: kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net (Jill Wyrtham)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 19:52:12 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Reading as a coping mechanism, was Memory...and
In-Reply-To: <48.2073502a.2c5ef667@aol.com>
References: <48.2073502a.2c5ef667@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F2DBC4C.3050407@comcast.net>

>
>
>Reminds me of a scholar who spent his life proving that the Iliad and Odyssey 
>where not written by Homer, but by another ancient Greek with the same name. 
>;-)
>
Or the guy who keeps trying to prove Shakespeare was actually someone 
else, (I forget who).

>Seriously, I don't care who wrote the story. I read it when I'm angry to help 
>me get over the hurt.
>  
>
Exactly. I have started rereading the Clancy stories since I currently 
want to launch a crusie missile at someone and the police fuss at you 
when you do that...

>Also, in the collaborations between actors and writers (JOAT, please comment 
>if you wish), I don't care who wrote the most text. I'm interested in a good 
>story.
>  
>
Exactly! Jeff Rovin (who seems to have written most of the later ones) 
has his own series, some of which have been optioned for movies. So he's 
getting his due.

Jill

-- 
**Sig Error 404: Clever Sig Not Found***



--------________--------________--------

From waltpalmer at comcast.net  Mon Aug  4 03:42:46 2003
From: waltpalmer at comcast.net (Walter Palmer)
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:42:46 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dorothy Sayers mysteries
In-Reply-To: <001801c359cc$12d2a120$48eaaad8@tds.net>
Message-ID: <BB533255.13BBE%waltpalmer@comcast.net>

On 8/3/03 9:32 AM, "D Echelbarger" <bujoldjunkie at tds.net> wrote:

> Jerry asked about the Petherbridge/Walther
> adaptation, as opposed to the Ian Carmichael ones.

You mean Ian "Lovejoy" Carmichael of Lovejoy and Babylon 5?? Was that an
audio book or TV?

My wife and I just saw the Masterpiece Theater 'Lord Peter' though we have
read many of the books. The DVDs (Petherbridge) go on the wish list.

Carmichael was in one of the post-series movies. Played an unethical
archaeologist - which didn't exactly stretch his 'Lovejoy' acting range, but
I enjoyed it.



--------________--------________--------

From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu  Mon Aug  4 03:45:39 2003
From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (Andrew Lambdin-Abraham)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 21:45:39 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Reading as a coping mechanism, was Memory...and
In-Reply-To: <3F2DBC4C.3050407@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BB892748-C625-11D7-9D97-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu>

On Sunday, August 3, 2003, at 08:52  PM, Jill Wyrtham wrote:

> Or the guy who keeps trying to prove Shakespeare was actually someone 
> else, (I forget who).

There's a number of people on that topic.  Eric Flint made an offhand 
agreement with it in _1632_.  I will avoid classifying myself as an 
idiot by suggesting that represents his true opinion...

> Exactly. I have started rereading the Clancy stories since I currently 
> want to launch a crusie missile at someone and the police fuss at you 
> when you do that...

There's a New Zealander who is working on building a cruise missile in 
his garage.  He says it should only cost five thousand dollars.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/SciTech/missile030605_call.html
http://www.interestingprojects.com/cruisemissile/

Andrew



--------________--------________--------

From kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net  Mon Aug  4 03:44:22 2003
From: kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net (Jill Wyrtham)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 20:44:22 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Question for the Listmind
Message-ID: <000d01c35a32$4fbc21e0$9e19fea9@attbi.com>

Can anyone point me to archives of LMB fanfic (any sort)? A friend of mine has
written a small LMB fanfic piece and he wants to share it (but doesn't do the
list due to time constraints). It's large enough so I don't want to just dump
it on the list.

Jill

**I call my pet Newt "tiny" cause he's My Newt***



--------________--------________--------

From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu  Mon Aug  4 04:16:13 2003
From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (Andrew Lambdin-Abraham)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 22:16:13 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Question for the Listmind
In-Reply-To: <000d01c35a32$4fbc21e0$9e19fea9@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <0111E799-C62A-11D7-9D97-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu>

On Sunday, August 3, 2003, at 09:44  PM, Jill Wyrtham wrote:

> Can anyone point me to archives of LMB fanfic (any sort)?

http://www.dendarii.co.uk/FanFic/

In general, just about everything of this sort (related to LMB, but not 
on the list) can be found on or linked from www.dendarii.com

Andrew



--------________--------________--------

From kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net  Mon Aug  4 04:17:15 2003
From: kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net (Jill Wyrtham)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 21:17:15 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Reading as a coping mechanism, was Memory...and
References: <BB892748-C625-11D7-9D97-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <001701c35a36$e860d5e0$9e19fea9@attbi.com>

>
> There's a New Zealander who is working on building a cruise missile in
> his garage.  He says it should only cost five thousand dollars.

Darn. If I had five grand, I wouldn't want to missile somebody. However, I
shall keep the URL in reserve...:>

Jill

***3 Years Have Gone By Between ACC and DI***



--------________--------________--------

From kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net  Mon Aug  4 04:19:19 2003
From: kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net (Jill Wyrtham)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 21:19:19 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Question for the Listmind
References: <0111E799-C62A-11D7-9D97-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <001f01c35a37$346d8640$9e19fea9@attbi.com>

> 
> http://www.dendarii.co.uk/FanFic/
> 
Lord, I'm an idiot..... Thenk Yew!

Jill

***No, sir, not nearly drunk enough. Yet. Pym, see me. (MVK from ACC)***



--------________--------________--------

From bujoldjunkie at tds.net  Mon Aug  4 04:59:13 2003
From: bujoldjunkie at tds.net (D Echelbarger)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 22:59:13 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dorothy Sayers mysteries
References: <BB533255.13BBE%waltpalmer@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <000d01c35a3c$c49f07c0$48eaaad8@tds.net>

I referenced:
> > the Petherbridge/Walther
> > adaptation, as opposed to the Ian Carmichael
ones.

> You mean Ian "Lovejoy" Carmichael of Lovejoy
> and Babylon 5?? Was that an audio book or TV?

I've seen the Lovejoy series and I'm certain it's
not the same actor.    Especially since Lovejoy
isn't listed on his credits on the Internet Movie
Database.  This Ian Carmichael was born in 1920,
so he'd have been in his mid-50s when he did the
Lord Peter series (1972-1975) and 83 now.  (Oh,
NEAT! He was awarded an OBE this year, on the
Queen's Birthday List!)

Carmichael did both the Masterpiece Theatre Lord
Peter TV adaptations (Clouds of Witness, Nine
Tailors, Five Red Herrings, Unpleasantness at the
Bellona Club, Murder Must Advertise) and the
Chivers audiobooks.  I much preferred the
audiobooks, because he just doesn't *look* the
part.

> My wife and I just saw the Masterpiece Theater
'Lord Peter'

That's Carmichael. Petheridge's series aired on
Mystery over here.

> The DVDs (Petherbridge) go on the wish list.

Two of the Carmichaels are also available on DVD.
The others are, IIRC, only available on VHS.

Diane E



--------________--------________--------

From tracy.macshane at vuw.ac.nz  Mon Aug  4 05:09:41 2003
From: tracy.macshane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:09:41 +1200
Subject: [LMB] Reading as a coping mechanism, was Memory...and
References: <BB892748-C625-11D7-9D97-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <003f01c35a3e$3ac6dfd0$920fc382@staff.vuw.ac.nz>

Andrew Lambdin-Abraham wrote:
[snip]
> There's a New Zealander who is working on building a cruise missile in
> his garage.  He says it should only cost five thousand dollars.
> http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/SciTech/missile030605_call.html
> http://www.interestingprojects.com/cruisemissile/
>

It's even funnier when you consider NZ is 38th from the bottom in the world
for military expenditure (we spend .01% more of GDP than those Canadians -
the buggers keep beating us to all the fun stuff!). Germany has the
"average" military expenditure compared to GDP - they're ranked 7 above NZ.

I don't know this guy's politics, but it seems to go with that whole Kiwi
ethos of fixing everything with a hunk of No 8 fencing wire. No bombs, hell,
mate, build one yerself, go for your life! He might be able to help the
Royal NZ Navy as well - 4 frigates to patrol the 16th longest coastline in
the world, dear o dear.



--------________--------________--------

From tracy.macshane at vuw.ac.nz  Mon Aug  4 05:13:29 2003
From: tracy.macshane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:13:29 +1200
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dorothy Sayers mysteries
References: <BB533255.13BBE%waltpalmer@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <004a01c35a3e$c299aff0$920fc382@staff.vuw.ac.nz>

Walter Palmer wrote:
[snip]

> You mean Ian "Lovejoy" Carmichael of Lovejoy and Babylon 5?? Was that
> an audio book or TV?
>
It's Ian *McShane* - no relative that I'm aware of, but I'm sure that
somewhere in Ireland a couple of hundred years ago there was some connection
between his ancestors and mine.



--------________--------________--------

From kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net  Mon Aug  4 05:36:25 2003
From: kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net (Jill Wyrtham)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 22:36:25 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Reading as a coping mechanism, was Memory...and
References: <BB892748-C625-11D7-9D97-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu>
 <003f01c35a3e$3ac6dfd0$920fc382@staff.vuw.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <002d01c35a41$f71c31a0$9e19fea9@attbi.com>

>He might be able to help the
> Royal NZ Navy as well - 4 frigates to patrol the 16th longest coastline in
> the world, dear o dear.

do you guys ever worry about the Indians down there? All those people, and
you have all that lovely room...???

Jill

***Sig Error 404 -- Clever Sig Not Found***



--------________--------________--------

From kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net  Mon Aug  4 05:50:17 2003
From: kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net (Jill Wyrtham)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 22:50:17 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Another Question For The Listmind (On Topic, what a shock!)
References: <BB892748-C625-11D7-9D97-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu>
 <003f01c35a3e$3ac6dfd0$920fc382@staff.vuw.ac.nz>
 <002d01c35a41$f71c31a0$9e19fea9@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <003301c35a43$e7532380$9e19fea9@attbi.com>

Okay, let's assume Gregor's first-URed (not born!) child is a male to secure
the line of succession. I'm still not clear on how names get assigned from
grandparents and whatnot for Vor. Given what we know, what would the
Vorbarra's scion's first two names be?

Jill

***Sig Error 404 -- Clever Sig Not Found***



--------________--------________--------

From tracy.macshane at vuw.ac.nz  Mon Aug  4 05:49:36 2003
From: tracy.macshane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:49:36 +1200
Subject: [LMB] Immigration, was reading as a coping mechanism
References: <BB892748-C625-11D7-9D97-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu>
 <003f01c35a3e$3ac6dfd0$920fc382@staff.vuw.ac.nz>
 <002d01c35a41$f71c31a0$9e19fea9@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <005601c35a43$ce111300$920fc382@staff.vuw.ac.nz>

Jill Wyrtham wrote:
> do you guys ever worry about the Indians down there? All those
> people, and you have all that lovely room...???

We've got lots here already and more coming each day. However, the
government has recently invented some extra immigration restrictions, so
that even if you are well-educated etc, you don't automatically get lots of
points for your application. Nothing (of course) to help well-educated
people get recertified in NZ... (we need more doctors, and everything else).
I'm looking forward to the day when we get a decent Indian food importers in
the city I live in!

On a more facetious note, that's what Australia's for - a buffer zone so
that people who come here *really* have to make an effort! That's how we
know they deserve to live here in Godzone. ;-) (and that applies to all the
NZers who go to live in Oz).



--------________--------________--------

From robertaw at drizzle.com  Mon Aug  4 06:00:01 2003
From: robertaw at drizzle.com (Robert A. Woodward)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 22:00:01 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Reading as a coping mechanism, was Memory...and
In-Reply-To: <BB892748-C625-11D7-9D97-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <8128F285-C638-11D7-A481-0003936731E6@drizzle.com>

On Sunday, August 3, 2003, at 07:45  PM, Andrew Lambdin-Abraham wrote:

> On Sunday, August 3, 2003, at 08:52  PM, Jill Wyrtham wrote:
>
>> Or the guy who keeps trying to prove Shakespeare was actually someone  
>> else, (I forget who).
>
> There's a number of people on that topic.  Eric Flint made an offhand  
> agreement with it in _1632_.  I will avoid classifying myself as an  
> idiot by suggesting that represents his true opinion...
>

There are at least 2 theories which claim that Shakespeare was a front  
man. IIRC, the older theory claimed Francis Bacon; a more recent one  
(and popular in certain circles) claims that Edward de Vere, Earl of  
Oxford was the man (he at least had some contact with the theater - but  
he died in 1604, years before the production of quite a few major  
Shakespearean plays). Having not read 1632, I  don't know which one  
that Flint mentioned, but I have heard that Jim Baen is an Oxfordian.  
On the other hand, I view both theories as poppycock.

------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
--------
Robert A. Woodward - robertaw at drizzle.com

"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.



--------________--------________--------

From dtilque at nwlink.com  Mon Aug  4 06:06:16 2003
From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 22:06:16 -0700
Subject: [LMB] The Warrior's Apprentice
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030803212151.027e5020@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <001301c35a46$237fe260$6e7dadcf@nwlink.com>

Sara A. wrote:

>
> Heh.  Miles starts out trying to prove something, lands
> himself in a pile of absurd trouble, manages to wriggle his
> way out of it again.  I get the impression that happens a lot.

You might say it's his MO...

>
> So, how did Cordelia ever make up with Beta Colony?

It's never shown or mentioned in the books. But I believe Lois
has said that sometime in the first few years of Aral's Regency,
things get sorted out by the diplomats.

>  The spy part would
> have made it trickier.

It's not like they have any proof that she did any spying. It was
just a theory, although one that they seemed overly fond of.

--
Dan Tilque



--------________--------________--------

From raye_j at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  4 06:23:33 2003
From: raye_j at yahoo.com (Raye Johnsen)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 22:23:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Shakespeare vs. Bacon (was: Re: [LMB] Reading as a coping
 mechanism, was Memory...and)
In-Reply-To: <8128F285-C638-11D7-A481-0003936731E6@drizzle.com>
Message-ID: <20030804052333.72546.qmail@web14001.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert A. Woodward" <robertaw at drizzle.com> wrote:

> IIRC, the older theory claimed Francis Bacon; a
> more recent one  
> (and popular in certain circles) claims that Edward
> de Vere, Earl of  
> Oxford was the man (he at least had some contact
> with the theater - but  
> he died in 1604, years before the production of
> quite a few major  
> Shakespearean plays).

Personally, I can't see *why* people would want to
prove that William Shakespeare of Stratford-upon-Avon
was not the author of the plays and poems which bear
his name, especially since there's so much historical
evidence that he *was*.

The Baconian theory, I understand, is tied in with the
theory that Bacon was the illegitimate son of
Elizabeth I.  Bacon tends to get credited with just
about every advance made during his lifetime by those
who follow this theory.  The logic is more than a
little convoluted, and the motive for it escapes me.

I mean, really, who *cares*?

Raye

=====
raye_j at yahoo.com
livejournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/windtear
http://www.thejohnsens.com/index.html

"It means, I'm in charge... where are you going?"
 - C-3PO (to R2D2), 'Star Wars: Attack of the Clones'

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com



--------________--------________--------

From mikebomb at myrealbox.com  Mon Aug  4 06:59:58 2003
From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 01:59:58 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: Matchmaker names, in canon and out - offlist
References: <200307301303.h6UD3vOW026557@im1.mail.tds.net>
Message-ID: <011701c35a4d$a348e170$3201a8c0@mbaxis>

Offlist due to lateness of reply.

On Wednesday, July 30, 2003 9:03 AM, you wrote:

> If you want to confuse them, but give them a chance of
> figuring it out, call yourself the yenta.  From the
> matchmaker character in Fiddler on the Roof, y'know.  For
> years I thought "Yenta" was her title, not her name.
>
> Years ago, someone told me her name was taken from "Baba
> Yenta" (I think it was Baba) which is roughly translated
> from the Yiddish as "matchmaking grandmother". Can anyone
> who actually speaks Yiddish confirm/refute/correct this?

It has been so long since I have seen Fiddler that I cannot
comment on the character but I can give you some more insight
into "Yenta". "Yenta" is both a Yiddish name and a description of
character. As it is a negative character trait, it is an
unfortunate name and survives only through tradition; i.e. as a
namesake. A "yenta" is a gossip. Not just a gossip, but a
talkative, inveterate one. Sometimes a yenta can mean someone who
will just not stop talking, but it mostly means a gossip, and it
almost always refers to a female.

> Because if so, we could get an interesting discussion
> going on why the Barrayaran word for "Matchmaker" is the
> Yiddish for "Grandmother".   Maybe there was a bigger
> Orthodox Jewish contingent in the original colony than we
> thought? <G>

Baba means grandmother (or old woman) in a number of eastern
European languages. As the grandmothers - especially the yenta
grandmothers talking to each other - were also usually the
matchmakers [1], the word got attached to the profession.

-- Michael

[1]
Yenta 1: "Did I tell you about my grandson Mendel? He went to
Minsk and made himself a fortune!"
Yenta 2: "You don't say... how old is Mendel now, anyway?"
Yenta 1: "OY! He's 25 and still not married!"
Yenta 2: "Is that so? My granddaughter Faig'l - you know, the
pretty one - just turned 18. I need someone special for her."
Yenta 3: "What do you mean special? I know your Faig'l. She may
be pretty but she hasn't two thoughts to rub together in that
pretty head of hers. *My* granddaughter Tzirel - she's not only
pretty, she's smart. She's just what a successful businessman
needs to stay successful."



--------________--------________--------

From dtilque at nwlink.com  Mon Aug  4 07:06:11 2003
From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:06:11 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Shakespearean theories
References: <8128F285-C638-11D7-A481-0003936731E6@drizzle.com>
Message-ID: <003901c35a4e$850ee280$6e7dadcf@nwlink.com>

Robert A. Woodward wrote:

>
> There are at least 2 theories which claim that Shakespeare was
> a front man. IIRC, the older theory claimed Francis Bacon; a
> more recent one (and popular in certain circles) claims that
> Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford was the man

Those are only two of the major theories. There are a number of
others: William Stanley, 6th Earl of Derby; Roger Manners, 5th
Earl of Rutland; Christopher Marlowe; Sir Walter Raleigh; Richard
Devereux, 2nd Earl of Essex; Queen Elizabeth; many others. Yet
another theory is that a group of people consisting of some or
all of the above plus others wrote them and used Shakespeare as a
collective pen name.

About the only thing everyone really agrees on is that Love's
Labor's Lost was not written by William Shakespeare, and was most
likely written by Stanley or possibly Bacon. I think even
Stratfordians are convinced by the evidence for this if they
bother to look at it.

--
Dan Tilque



--------________--------________--------

From mikebomb at myrealbox.com  Mon Aug  4 07:06:12 2003
From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 02:06:12 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Apologies
Message-ID: <013b01c35a4e$82a24f50$3201a8c0@mbaxis>

Sorry about that, folks. I was supposed to send that last message
offlist to Diane Echelbarger.

-- Michael



--------________--------________--------

From tonyz at eskimo.com  Mon Aug  4 07:15:24 2003
From: tonyz at eskimo.com (Tony Zbaraschuk)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:15:24 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Contraceptive implants
In-Reply-To: <200308040055.h740tGj6006527@lists.herald.co.uk>; from
 lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk on Mon, Aug 04, 2003 at
 01:55:16AM +0100
References: <200308040055.h740tGj6006527@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20030803231524.D9300@eskimo.eskimo.com>

It occurs to me that a simple straightforward explanation is usually
the best -- some small percentage of raped Escobaran prisoners
either had implants that had passed their "refill me!" date, or
else had already taken out/turned off their own ones and were
trying for a natural pregnancy for some reason.  No reason to
pile up atrocities here (though it could certainly have happened
from time to time, we really only have hard evidence for _one_
case that was Serg's special target).


Tony Z
-- 
Though no man can draw a stroke between the confines of day and night,
yet light and darkness are upon the whole tolerably distinguishable.
--Edmund Burke



--------________--------________--------

From dtilque at nwlink.com  Mon Aug  4 07:39:05 2003
From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque)
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:39:05 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Another Question For The Listmind (On Topic, what a
 shock!)
References: <BB892748-C625-11D7-9D97-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu>
 <003f01c35a3e$3ac6dfd0$920fc382@staff.vuw.ac.nz>
 <002d01c35a41$f71c31a0$9e19fea9@attbi.com>
 <003301c35a43$e7532380$9e19fea9@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <004501c35a53$1a864b60$6e7dadcf@nwlink.com>

Jill Wyrtham wrote:

> Okay, let's assume Gregor's first-URed (not born!) child is a
> male to secure the line of succession. I'm still not clear on
> how names get assigned from grandparents and whatnot for Vor.
> Given what we know, what would the Vorbarra's scion's first
> two names be?

The convention is that the first-born son is named after both
grandfathers, with the paternal name first. Second-born gets the
grandfathers' middle names with the maternal one first.

So if they followed the convention, he will be Serg {something}
Vorbarra. We don't know Laisa's father's name, so we can't say
what the {something} is. However, note that this is only a
convention, not a rigid rule. In particular, Gregor was not named
after his grandfather, probably due to a falling out between Serg
and Ezar.

Now Serg is officially a Hero of Barrayar, despite numerous
rumors and stories of his perversions. And Gregor is aware that
most of those rumors and stories are true. So it wouldn't
surprise me if Gregor decides not to honor Serg, but rather names
the Imperial rugrat after someone else such as Ezar.

--
Dan Tilque

PS I just realized that if Ezar followed the naming convention,
Serg's middle name was Dorca. Don't know why I never thought of
that before.



--------________--------________--------

From carosue at centurytel.net  Mon Aug  4 07:45:12 2003
From: carosue at centurytel.net (House of Unruly Fish)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:45:12 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Poor Simon's Almanack - Aug 4
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030803010106.00bd6d18@mail.so.centurytel.net>

In various spots upon our verdant globe, today is August Holiday, August 
Monday, Bank or Civic Holiday, Coast Guard Day, Natal Day, British Columbia 
and New Brunswick Day, plus Picnic Day.  And Chinese Valentine's Day, which 
is also called the Daughter's Festival.  So Happy Whatever Works For You!

This Day In Listory:

2002 - Not all that many posts today.  Mostly CoC chat, although Mike 
Bernardi shares a good compare/contrast post about CoC and Spirit Ring.
2001 - (Digests 4422-3) *Funny* POST FROM LOIS about her cat's 
misadventure. Good new filks from Mike Bernardi and Jim Parish.
2000 - (Digests 3513-4) The topic of DSL service was of deep interest to 
many listees, for obvious reasons. Some good on topic chat about events in 
SoH.
1999 - (Digests 2611-2) POST FROM LOIS via Martin Bonham and Baen's Bar on 
Mark and MPD.
1998 - (Digests 1782-5) (1784 missing) Some good examples here of why we 
don't discuss g*n control on the list anymore.
1997 - (Digest 802) Descent of titles, vassal oaths, and related topics.
1996 - No posts today
1995 - (Digest 41) Across the board musings on various characters' 
potential marriages, plus discussion on the first section of Cetaganda from 
Analog.

Respectfully submitted by,

Susan the Neon Nurse

All the above info collected from:

http://lists.herald.co.uk/old-archives/lois-bujold/

and the New List archives at

<http://lists.herald.co.uk/pipermail/lois-bujold/>http://lists.herald.co.uk/pipermail/lois-bujold/

Additions, corrections or better hammering skills may be sent to carosue at 
centurytel.net



--------________--------________--------

From kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net  Mon Aug  4 08:02:07 2003
From: kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net (Jill Wyrtham)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 01:02:07 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Another Question For The Listmind (On Topic, what a
 shock!)
References: <BB892748-C625-11D7-9D97-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu>
 <003f01c35a3e$3ac6dfd0$920fc382@staff.vuw.ac.nz>
 <002d01c35a41$f71c31a0$9e19fea9@attbi.com>
 <003301c35a43$e7532380$9e19fea9@attbi.com>
 <004501c35a53$1a864b60$6e7dadcf@nwlink.com>
Message-ID: <005701c35a56$51e11a60$9e19fea9@attbi.com>

> So if they followed the convention, he will be Serg {something}
> Vorbarra. 

>  So it wouldn't
> surprise me if Gregor decides not to honor Serg, but rather names
> the Imperial rugrat after someone else such as Ezar.

Thenk Yew. You've just solved my problem.

Jill

***Sig Error 405 -- Too Tired To Make Up A Clever Sig!***



--------________--------________--------

From carbonelle at juno.com  Mon Aug  4 08:51:44 2003
From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:51:44 GMT
Subject: [LMB] Re: Biology & sexuality OT:
Message-ID: <20030804.005223.487.273995@webmail14.lax.untd.com>

Sara (thank you) expands further upon her assessment:
"it's very unladylike to fight, but even more unladylike 
to win."

By adding:

"That was me, and I was speaking of the adult disapproval 
that got heaped on my head for 1)fighting back against 
bullies, and 2) kicking their asses in the process."  

You sure it was the *winning* that got you in trouble
and not the fact that you inflicted measurable damage?
And that the guy you pounded didn't end up in trouble
for fighting too, even if you were relatively unscathed
(Yes, I'm reporting an incident from, IIRC, 6th grade :-)

But your addenda to my assertion that girls resist
beating guys (as opposed to merely beating them up)
because it interferes with the sexual dance that
preoccupies them. (And the guys, but right now
the young ladies *don't* generally have the social
conditioning/cultural influences wh. would give them
as much power in this, er mutual obsession. A pity)

"Not buying biology as an explanation, though.  I 
think that the **physical** differences between men and 
women **that affect behavior** are hard as hell to 
quantify, and impossible to separate out from 
social/cultural influences."

Missed my point--in *EVERY* human society everywhere,
people modify their behaviour in response to opportunities
to mate--that's a v. powerful force for young folks--and
social/cultural influences can only go so far to mitigate
it.

Kirsten Edwards

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Mon Aug  4 09:53:46 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 04:53:46 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: Biology & sexuality OT:
In-Reply-To: <20030804.005223.487.273995@webmail14.lax.untd.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030804042701.027fb150@pop.mindspring.com>

At 07:51 AM 8/4/03 +0000, you wrote:
>You sure it was the *winning* that got you in trouble
>and not the fact that you inflicted measurable damage?

I think so.  We rarely did real damage to each other, though one of them 
broke my glasses once.

>And that the guy you pounded didn't end up in trouble
>for fighting too, even if you were relatively unscathed

We'd both get in trouble, but particular ire seemed to come down on me 
based on the fact that I "should know better" i.e. was a girl.  "Boys will 
be boys" didn't apply to me.

>But your addenda to my assertion that girls resist
>beating guys (as opposed to merely beating them up)
>because it interferes with the sexual dance that
>preoccupies them.

It didn't work that way for me.  Some of the same boys I thrashed and then 
coldly beat at their own game (albeit having set it up by my rules) were 
asking me for dates later.  Not that much later, either.  Some of them on 
the other hand appeared to hold grudges for years.  About 50/50.

In my experience for the most part, it's the boys who are at a disadvantage 
in the sexual dance, and the girls who have control over it, though there 
is a lag time at puberty.  Also in my experience and observation, having 
the reputation of being what people in north Georgia call "a wildcat" 
doesn't hurt your chances of male attention at all.

I don't think women freezing up and not defending themselves is a chosen 
reaction at all, even on a subconscious level, and I don't think it's a 
biologically motivated one.   I think it's a socially conditioned 
reaction.  And the reasons for it have less to do with sex per se than 
gender politics on another level, ie teaching women that their proper place 
is as victims.

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From jbryant at iee.org  Mon Aug  4 10:45:56 2003
From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:45:56 +0100
Subject: [LMB] OT:- Shakespeare vs. Bacon
In-Reply-To: <200308040617.h746H6j6007898@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030804104303.023805f8@pop.luna.co.uk>

Raye Johnsen asks:-

 >I mean, really, who *cares*?

Go and read the relevant chapter
of Kipling's "Stalky & Co" to find
someone who does - and how Stalky
make use of the fact. Very funny.

James - Kipling fan
[I daresay that most members
of this list do not have the
faintest idea of how to kipple]



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Mon Aug  4 10:54:29 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 05:54:29 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT:- Shakespeare vs. Bacon
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030804104303.023805f8@pop.luna.co.uk>
References: <200308040617.h746H6j6007898@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030804055309.028059a0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:45 AM 8/4/03 +0100, you wrote:
>[I daresay that most members
>of this list do not have the
>faintest idea of how to kipple]


Don't be so sure.  An ex-boyfriend of mine's name is Kip.  Short for Kipling.

;D

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From jparish at siue.edu  Mon Aug  4 12:12:49 2003
From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 06:12:49 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Birthday
Message-ID: <3F2DF961.8469.B00305@localhost>

<Ben and Murphy scurry onstage from the right. Their tails are tucked, 
and they glance behind themselves as they go. Reaching center stage, 
they sit down. The stout academic figure appears, also on the right. His 
hood is missing, and his robes are spotted with mud; he is clutching a 
pair of reins. The reins tauten, and he is jerked to a stop. After a couple 
of experimental tugs, he drops them and stalks to center stage.>

Today, my friends, we honor Paula Gillis, who today completes her 
thirtieth year. Paula is a resident of the Garden State and an alumna of 
that most excellent college, St. John's. Paula, may your horses always 
be biddable <glares offstage>, may your corner of Joisey never grow 
more crowded, and may your day be filled with all that is good.

<Exeunt omnes, to the left. There is a burst of light and a startled 
whinny offstage right.>



--------________--------________--------

From waltpalmer at comcast.net  Mon Aug  4 12:31:44 2003
From: waltpalmer at comcast.net (Walter Palmer)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 06:31:44 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dorothy Sayers mysteries
In-Reply-To: <000d01c35a3c$c49f07c0$48eaaad8@tds.net>
Message-ID: <BB53AE50.13BEA%waltpalmer@comcast.net>

On 8/3/03 10:59 PM, "D Echelbarger" <bujoldjunkie at tds.net> wrote:

> I referenced:
>>> the Petherbridge/Walther
>>> adaptation, as opposed to the Ian Carmichael
> ones.
> 
>> You mean Ian "Lovejoy" Carmichael of Lovejoy
>> and Babylon 5?? Was that an audio book or TV?
> 
> I've seen the Lovejoy series and I'm certain it's
> not the same actor.    Especially since Lovejoy
> isn't listed on his credits on the Internet Movie
> Database.  This Ian Carmichael was born in 1920,
> so he'd have been in his mid-50s when he did the
> Lord Peter series (1972-1975) and 83 now.  (Oh,
> NEAT! He was awarded an OBE this year, on the
> Queen's Birthday List!)
> 
> Carmichael did both the Masterpiece Theatre Lord
> Peter TV adaptations (Clouds of Witness, Nine
> Tailors, Five Red Herrings, Unpleasantness at the
> Bellona Club, Murder Must Advertise) and the
> Chivers audiobooks.  I much preferred the
> audiobooks, because he just doesn't *look* the
> part.
> 
>> My wife and I just saw the Masterpiece Theater
> 'Lord Peter'
> 
> That's Carmichael. Petheridge's series aired on
> Mystery over here.
> 
>> The DVDs (Petherbridge) go on the wish list.
> 
> Two of the Carmichaels are also available on DVD.
> The others are, IIRC, only available on VHS.
> 
> Diane E
I thought it was a bit odd, but then most British actors are unknown to me. 



--------________--------________--------

From bo.h.johansson at lfv.se  Mon Aug  4 12:50:11 2003
From: bo.h.johansson at lfv.se (bo.h.johansson at lfv.se)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 13:50:11 +0200
Subject: [LMB] Baba, etc. OT: (was: Matchmaker names)
Message-ID: <B74C26FFD527D3119270009027615574F1F170@gg-exch1.gg.lfv.se>

On Monday, August 04, 2003 8:00 AM 
Michael Bauminger <mailto:mikebomb at myrealbox.com> wrote:
> 
> Baba means grandmother (or old woman) in a number of eastern
> European languages. [...]

It seems to be one of those a-a words that are easy for babies
to say. They seem to excist in most(?) languages but they have
different meanings in different languages.

Some examples:
- mama (mother in most languages)
- papa (father in many languages)
- baba (grandmother in E. Europe, baby in French?)
- dada (father in English, child nurse in Swedish)
- nana (child nurse in English, to sleep in Swedish)
- kaka (to shit in Swedish)

Anyone know more about this?

// Bo Johansson



--------________--------________--------

From bujoldjunkie at tds.net  Mon Aug  4 13:31:01 2003
From: bujoldjunkie at tds.net (D Echelbarger)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 7:31:01 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Re: Matchmaker names, in canon and out - offlist
Message-ID: <200308041231.h74CV1EQ019647@im2.mail.tds.net>

> Offlist due to lateness of reply.

Thank you, Michael, I was hoping you'd reply to this.

> > Years ago, someone told me her name
> > was taken from "Baba Yenta" 
> > which is roughly translated
> > from the Yiddish as "matchmaking grandmother". 
> 
> It has been so long since I have seen
> Fiddler that I cannot comment on the character

Odd, you gave a spot-on impersonation of her in your footnote. <G>

>"Yenta" is both a Yiddish name and a
> description of character. As it is a
> negative character trait, it is an
> unfortunate name and survives only
> through tradition; i.e. as a namesake.
> A "yenta" is a gossip. Not just a gossip, but a
> talkative, inveterate one.

That fits the character to a tee. The implication, in the movie, is that Yenta is a widow who turned to matchmaking to earn a living after her husband died. ISTR that she was even more of a gossip in the stage-play than in the movie.

Diane 



--------________--------________--------

From bujoldjunkie at tds.net  Mon Aug  4 13:40:20 2003
From: bujoldjunkie at tds.net (D Echelbarger)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 7:40:20 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Apologies and TorCon planning query
Message-ID: <200308041240.h74CeKEQ023328@im2.mail.tds.net>

> Sorry about that, folks. 

I didn't realize he hadn't until I'd hit "send" on my reply, either.

BTW, could anyone who expects to (or thinks they might) arrive at TorCon on Thursday before midnight e-mail me offlist (don't repeat my error!!) at the e-dress in my sig? (Not the one I get list-mail to, or it'll get lost in the flood of list-mail)

I'm finalizing plans for my TorCon Thursday night sandwich buffet and room party, and it would help if I had some idea of how many people I had to provide food for. Also, if you have allergies or special dietary requirements (no-peanuts and kosher are already being allowed for; thanks, Mama Deb, for the advice!) let me know so I can accomodate them.

Diane E
diane at dendarii.com



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Mon Aug  4 13:56:30 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:56:30 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Test scores
Message-ID: <154.227dbf55.2c5fb1fe@aol.com>

Bill Wenrich writes:

> I always did well on tests, I was at least 3 months younger than the rest 
> of 
> my classmates (Not from skipping grades. In Pennsylvania, the school cutoff 
> was December 31 and in Albuquerque it was September 1.) and I was a "late 
> bloomer." I didn't reach my full height and weight until my early twenties.
> 
My only comfort in skipping two grades is that I would have been a 5'9" sixth 
grader if I hadn't (somehow I settled an inch between ages 12 and 16, and 
ended up 5'8" when I started college.)  No, not the only comfort--I also got to 
college, which I enjoyed as much as I hated high school, two years earlier.

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From aharo at erols.com  Mon Aug  4 14:13:13 2003
From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:13:13 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Reading as a coping mechanism, was Memory...and
References: <BB892748-C625-11D7-9D97-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu>
 <003f01c35a3e$3ac6dfd0$920fc382@staff.vuw.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <3F2E5BE9.8DB0D18@erols.com>

> Andrew Lambdin-Abraham wrote:
> [snip]
> > There's a New Zealander who is working on building a cruise missile in
> > his garage.  He says it should only cost five thousand dollars.

Well...maybe. Sans the development costs for the parts he
can buy off the shelf that didn't exist when the program
started, the support systems, the software and the support
training. Not to mention the shipping cans...

Military programs cost a lot of money, not necessarily
because contractors are greedy, but because the hardware
itself is the tip of the iceberg among the costs. There's a
reason why military program Work Breakdown Structures
consists of thousands of line items.

To be on topic, I reference Miles' comments on major weapons
systems procurements being expensive vice flower
arrangements.

Alex H
who knows WBSs, as well as BOEs, SOWs, BOAs, LOEs, and other
horrible abbreviations



--------________--------________--------

From aharo at erols.com  Mon Aug  4 14:57:47 2003
From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:57:47 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 unaccounted-for pregnancies
References: <E19j0gd-000Nsz-RF@mk-smarthost-4.mail.uk.tiscali.com>
Message-ID: <3F2E665B.8E639CB@erols.com>

Michael R N Dolbear wrote:


> If 16 out of 17 had the same father, I think the Escobaran tech's speech
> [SoH ch 11]
> 
> "Personally, I'd suggest you hang them around their fathers' necks. The
> paternal gene complement is marked on each one, so you should have no
> trouble telling who they belong to. Sign here."
> 
> would have been different.

Well, "fathers" technically means two or more, which could
be Serg and Bothari. And my guess is that Bothari only
fathered Elena, otherwise he would be looking after more
children. (How did Bothari get custody of Elena, anyway? Do
we see the Hand of Cordelia here?)

Anyway, the quote that gives me the heebie-jeebies is in
Barrayar (pg 103, Baen, Oct 91 first printing):

Drou asks "Milady...how in the world did Sergeant Bothari
come by a a baby? He's not married, is he?"

[snip]

"Is she really Botharis's?"

[Cordelia] "Oh, yes. genetically certified. That's how they
identified-" Cordelia snapped that last sentence off
mid-way. Carefully now...

[snip]

[Drou] "Did the others take their babies too?"

[Cordelia] "Most of the other fathers were dead by then. The
children went to the Imperial Service orphanage." There. The
official version, all right and tight.

(Sorry about all the snippage, but it's a lot of text.)

Carefully now? Official version? What did they identify? Did
some of the babies not go to the orphanage? Did some not
survive to go to the orphanage? Were one or more of them
Sergs'?

I can't say for sure what is going on here, but it's more
than just some miscellaneous soldiers' bastards. There was
something significant to identify in one or more of the
genetic profiles.



--------________--------________--------

From nancy at dendarii.com  Mon Aug  4 16:01:59 2003
From: nancy at dendarii.com (Nancy L. Barber)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:01:59 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 unaccounted-for pregnancies
In-Reply-To: <3F2E665B.8E639CB@erols.com>
References: <E19j0gd-000Nsz-RF@mk-smarthost-4.mail.uk.tiscali.com>
 <3F2E665B.8E639CB@erols.com>
Message-ID: <p05111700bb5423ab53cc@[10.0.1.2]>

At 9:57 AM -0400 8/4/03, Alexandra Haropulos wrote:
>
>[Drou] "Did the others take their babies too?"
>
>[Cordelia] "Most of the other fathers were dead by then. The
>children went to the Imperial Service orphanage." There. The
>official version, all right and tight.

I read this as avoiding telling Drou that the
babies were the result of rape, and the fathers
were mostly either not willing or not permitted
to take the babies.  The fathers that weren't
really dead, that is. Note that Cordelia tells
Drou that Bothari loved Elena very much, and
that "there were some similar cases", meaning
the other 16.

     Nancy Barber



--------________--------________--------

From pgranzeau at cox.net  Mon Aug  4 16:10:58 2003
From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:10:58 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Another Question For The Listmind (On Topic, what a
 shock!)
In-Reply-To: <003301c35a43$e7532380$9e19fea9@attbi.com>
References: <BB892748-C625-11D7-9D97-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu>
 <003f01c35a3e$3ac6dfd0$920fc382@staff.vuw.ac.nz>
 <002d01c35a41$f71c31a0$9e19fea9@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030804100728.01dc5030@pop.east.cox.net>

At 23:50 08/03/2003, Jill Wyrtham wrote:

>Okay, let's assume Gregor's first-URed (not born!) child is a male to secure
>the line of succession. I'm still not clear on how names get assigned from
>grandparents and whatnot for Vor. Given what we know, what would the
>Vorbarra's scion's first two names be?

The two grandfathers's names would be the Vor tradition.  I don't know 
Laisa's father's name, but the male grandparent would have been Serg (whose 
name probably has some bad connotations in some quarters).  However, his 
death may have restored some of the luster to the name (after all, at one 
point, the newest and best space ship in Barrayar was named _Prince Serg_).


-- 
Regards, Pete
pgranzeau at cox.net 



--------________--------________--------

From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Mon Aug  4 17:00:51 2003
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:00:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] Another Question For The Listmind (On Topic, what a
 shock!)
In-Reply-To: <003301c35a43$e7532380$9e19fea9@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0308041158070.25098-100000@pannier.cfsc.ottaw
 a.on.ca>

On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Jill Wyrtham wrote:
> Okay, let's assume Gregor's first-URed (not born!) child is a male to secure
> the line of succession. I'm still not clear on how names get assigned from
> grandparents and whatnot for Vor. Given what we know, what would the
> Vorbarra's scion's first two names be?

Ezar <Laisa's father's name> Vorbarra.

If anyone dares ask, Gregor will simply say that he never knew his father,
and until the Emperor's death, Emperor Ezar was the man he saw as father.

I wouldn't be surprised if the second son was named Aral.

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca

"I believe God is a librarian. I believe that literature is holy ... it is that best part of
our souls that we break off and give each other, and God has a special dispensation for it,
angels to guard its making and its preservation." -- Sarah Smith, _Chasing Shakespeares_



--------________--------________--------

From jparish at siue.edu  Mon Aug  4 19:26:20 2003
From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 13:26:20 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Specialization
In-Reply-To: <17a.1e7a948f.2c5f0ec2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F2E5EFC.8505.23CE967@localhost>

CatMtn at aol.com wrote:

> My favorite math prof in college also composed music, and one of my
> music-major friends complained that some of her courses were more math
> than music.  Personally, I think the two subjects are pretty closely
> related, especially when you get into theory of music.  I wonder if
> the other guy was telling the truth?

>From what I remember of him, he probably was. As for the hypothetical 
connection of mathematics with music, well... I had a Master's student 
whose previous degree was in music, and one of the senior members of 
my department plays tuba in a local jazz band. But that's about it. Most 
of the mathematicians I know have little interest in music. In fact, other 
than our love of mathematics, we're about as varied in interests as a 
randomly selected group of people would be. Which was more or less 
my point...

Jim Parish



--------________--------________--------

From braue at ratsnest.win.net  Mon Aug  4 19:38:31 2003
From: braue at ratsnest.win.net (John W. Braue, III)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:38:31 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT:- Shakespeare vs. Bacon
References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030804104303.023805f8@pop.luna.co.uk>
Message-ID: <00f301c35ab7$9ff42b00$8166fea9@JohnBraue>

(RJ == Raye Johnson; JM == James Bryant)

RJ> I mean, really, who *cares*?
JM> Go and read the relevant chapter
JM> of Kipling's "Stalky & Co" to find
JM> someone who does - and how Stalky
JM> make use of the fact. Very funny.

See also Harry Turtledove's _The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump_ (a
light-hearted alternate history novel), in which one of the characters
makes a reference to Bacon's play _Prosciutto_.

(Turtledove is the master, not only of alternate history, but also of
bad (if funny) puns and jokes.  The bit in _Videssos Besieged_ where
Bagdasares is sorcerously forging a letter...well, it elicited mixed
giggles and groans from me.)

------------------------------------------------
John W. Braue, III
<braue at ratsnest.win.net>
http://www.win.net/ratsnest/

"Gold cannot always get you good soldiers, but good soldiers can
always get you gold" -- Niccolr Machiavelli



--------________--------________--------

From mitchmiller at entertainmenttax.com  Mon Aug  4 20:00:26 2003
From: mitchmiller at entertainmenttax.com (Mitch Miller)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:00:26 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT/LMB: Bullies; Male and Female soldiers; Spanish-style
 "fantasies"; What happened to the implants
Message-ID: <A752B46B661B7C4FAEE8B736DF87F4A40E1AD0@BRINET.bricare.com>

1.  As any male who is short, fat, thin, wears eyeglasses, is of a different ethnic group, etc., etc., etc., schoolyard bullying occurs against males equally or more so than against females.  Although because of the change in attitudes among educators and the elite, sexual roles for young children are no longer as delineated as they were when I grew up, there is still a great deal of lack of interaction, and thus less bullying, between boys and girls.  I don't personally know anything about female hierarchy-building, but from what I've read, it is as vicious, although not as physical, as among males.

2.  People who are really interested in the male/female military issue should be aware of H-Minerva, the list for discussion of women in the military.  You can see extensive discussion of this issue.  IMHO -- not shared by most of the Minervans -- the reason women have not served in the military in any significant numbers in history is biological.  You can lose a huge number of men and still continue your tribe or country; you cannot lose a significant percentage of child-bearing age women.  Within the last few years of real time, and certainly in the future, we can expect this to no longer be the case, and see more and more women combat soldiers.  Perhaps the difference in upper body strength will be made up some day (either by training, evolution, external aids or changes in the standards -- it's not at all clear to me why, in this day of lighter weapons, ammunition, equipment, clothing, etc., that an infantryman has to be able to hump 100 pounds of gear) and we will see significant numbers of women in ground combat.

However, the fact is that simply biologically, men are more aggressive than women.  Testosterone does that.  Nevertheless, men have to be trained to overcome their socialization to hurt and kill as well as women.  Read Men Against Fire by S.L.A. Marshall (although somewhat discredited, it is important because the Army followed the training suggestions in it) and On Killing by David Grossman.  Also Achilles in Vietnam by Jonathan Shay, about the consequences.

3.  Guy Gavriel Kay also has a "fantasy" novel about the beginning of the Reconquista called The Lions of al-Rassan.  It has absolutely no fantasy elements in it.  As my daughter said, the only reason he doesn't use actual names and places and call it a historical novel is to avoid a fatwa.

4.  Remember that the war was between Barrayar and a Betan/Escobarran alliance.  I don't recall anything being said about Escobarrans having the same birth control practices as Betans.  I thought it was quite clear that the rapists were many more than just Serge and Vorruyter.  Remember that women had been raped at the prison camp and Aral had the commandant shot for allowing it.

Mitch Miller 



--------________--------________--------

From nrappin at sockeye.com  Mon Aug  4 20:15:24 2003
From: nrappin at sockeye.com (Noel Rappin)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 15:15:24 -0400
Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] OT Hugo Nominees
In-Reply-To: <004101c357b1$c9687580$6b01a8c0@D6FL1B21>
References: <004101c357b1$c9687580$6b01a8c0@D6FL1B21>
Message-ID: <3F2EB0CC.3070305@sockeye.com>

I think that I heard about _Golden Age_ because it was reviewed on SF 
Weekly (http://www.scifi.com/sfw) -- I also get current book reviews at 
SFSite (http://www.sfsite.com), and this list always has good 
recommendations (thanks to whoever recommended Michael Flynn's _The 
Wreck of The River of Stars_).  Locus puts out a recommended reading 
list every year, which I think is on line somewhere. 

_Golden Age_ is a first novel, it's both very far future, and somewhat 
classical or baroque.  It's the first book of a trilogy, the second is 
out and is just about as good.   Let me put it this way -- in the cover 
quotes and blurb for the second book, the author is compared to: Iain 
Banks, Arthur C. Clark, Coleridge, E. R. Eddison, Greg Egan, Charles 
Harness, David Lindsay, Michael Moorcock, Cordwainer Smith, Bruce 
Sterling, Jack Vance (three times), Gene Wolfe, and Roger Zelazny.   
(And yes, I thought that was a sufficiently odd collection that I 
compiled the list).

Patrick O'Leary has also written _Door Number Three_ and _The Gift_.  
_Impossible Bird_ is hard to describe without giving away major parts of 
the backround -- it's the story of two brothers who shared an unusual 
experience in childhood. 

And yes, I think they are both worth seeking out.

Noel

Robert Warnicke wrote:

>Noel wrote:
> 
>  
>
>>I liked _The
>>Golden Age_ by John C. Wright, and _The Impossible Bird_ by Patrick
>>O'Leary better than any of them, not that you asked...
>>    
>>
>
>Well maybe I should have asked. :)  I read the nominees because that is
>the best way I have found to find good sci fi.  How did you find out
>about these Golden Age and Impossible Bird books?   Should I be looking
>them up?  I don't think I have read anything by either author.
>  
>



--------________--------________--------

From lathia at nwlink.com  Mon Aug  4 20:40:17 2003
From: lathia at nwlink.com (lathia at nwlink.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:40:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [LMB] OT LMB:lions of al-Rassan
In-Reply-To: <A752B46B661B7C4FAEE8B736DF87F4A40E1AD0@BRINET.bricare.com>
References: <A752B46B661B7C4FAEE8B736DF87F4A40E1AD0@BRINET.bricare.com>
Message-ID: <4289.131.107.3.86.1060026017.squirrel@webmail.pacifier.com>

Having just read this and then looked up El Cid, it's not a strict
re-telling of the Reconquista.  The outline might be similar, but the
facts aren't. For example, El Cid had two daughters whose marriages were
not pleasant and he conquered and ruled an area of the peninsula for a
number of years (until he died and the King (who is generally not
protrayed as positively as he is in this book) made El Cid's widow give it
up).  No, it doesn't have magic or many of the other elements of a fantasy
book (no elves). It's more of an alternative history.

> 3.  Guy Gavriel Kay also has a "fantasy" novel about the beginning of
> the Reconquista called The Lions of al-Rassan.  It has absolutely no
> fantasy elements in it.  As my daughter said, the only reason he doesn't
> use actual names and places and call it a historical novel is to avoid a
> fatwa.
>

This is the second book I've read recently where the author took an
exsisting plot and reworked it.  Is this cheating or creative?

THe other was Dave Duncan's Lord of Fire Island where he incorporates a
good bit of Hamlet.

Susan in Bellevue


Susan In Bellevue



--------________--------________--------

From dtilque at nwlink.com  Mon Aug  4 21:52:39 2003
From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 13:52:39 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Male and Female soldiers
References: <A752B46B661B7C4FAEE8B736DF87F4A40E1AD0@BRINET.bricare.com>
Message-ID: <003301c35aca$58da48e0$cc7eadcf@nwlink.com>

Mitch Miller wrote:

> it's not at all clear to me why,
> in this day of lighter weapons, ammunition, equipment,
> clothing, etc., that an infantryman has to be able to hump 100
> pounds of gear) and we will see significant numbers of
> women in ground combat.

If they lighten a piece of gear by one kilo, they will make that
up by adding one kilo of something else, usually more ammo. I'm
not sure they will ever lighten the load carried by grunts.
There've been sugestions that soldiers be given personal robots
(once they are developed to the point where they can walk over
all kinds of terrain) to haul the gear, but I'm not sure even
that will lighten the load. They'll just load the robot to its
max and then add 40 more kilos on the soldier.

--
Dan Tilque



--------________--------________--------

From pgranzeau at cox.net  Mon Aug  4 22:07:51 2003
From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:07:51 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT LMB:lions of al-Rassan
In-Reply-To: <4289.131.107.3.86.1060026017.squirrel@webmail.pacifier.com
 >
References: <A752B46B661B7C4FAEE8B736DF87F4A40E1AD0@BRINET.bricare.com>
 <A752B46B661B7C4FAEE8B736DF87F4A40E1AD0@BRINET.bricare.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030804155926.01dcf1c0@pop.east.cox.net>

At 14:40 08/04/2003, lathia at nwlink.com wrote:
>Having just read this and then looked up El Cid, it's not a strict
>re-telling of the Reconquista.

He also compressed several centuries into a couple of generations, as I 
remember.

>This is the second book I've read recently where the author took an
>exsisting plot and reworked it.  Is this cheating or creative?

Retelling existing plots is as old as literature; Shakespeare used existing 
works for most, if not all, of his plays.

David Drake specializes in retelling existing plots.   I can remember one 
based on a tale in the Icelandic Eddas, another based on the voyages of Sir 
Francis Drake, and so forth.  He has been involved in two series in which 
the situation is that of Justinian and Belisarius.

Harry Turtledove has mined the history of the Byzantine Empire for 
virtually all of his "Videssos" novels.


-- 
Regards, Pete
pgranzeau at cox.net 



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Mon Aug  4 22:34:49 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:34:49 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT/LMB: Bullies; Male and Female soldiers;
 Spanish-style "fantasies"; What happened to the implants
In-Reply-To: <A752B46B661B7C4FAEE8B736DF87F4A40E1AD0@BRINET.bricare.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030804173104.02801750@pop.mindspring.com>

At 12:00 PM 8/4/03 -0700, you wrote:
>1.  As any male who is short, fat, thin, wears eyeglasses, is of a 
>different ethnic group, etc., etc., etc., schoolyard bullying occurs 
>against males equally or more so than against females.

I don't doubt it, but that really doesn't change anything that's been said 
on the subject.  Talking about how boys bully girls, and how it plays out, 
doesn't mean they don't bully each other.  But the dynamic is a little 
different, and has different implications

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From rmacdonald at microd.com  Mon Aug  4 23:18:08 2003
From: rmacdonald at microd.com (Richard Macdonald)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:18:08 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Male and Female soldiers
References: <A752B46B661B7C4FAEE8B736DF87F4A40E1AD0@BRINET.bricare.com>
 <003301c35aca$58da48e0$cc7eadcf@nwlink.com>
Message-ID: <3F2EDBA0.11E265D2@microd.com>

Dan Tilque wrote:
> 
> If they lighten a piece of gear by one kilo, they will make that
> up by adding one kilo of something else, usually more ammo. I'm
> not sure they will ever lighten the load carried by grunts.

It's more like lightening your basic field gear by 5 kilos and
then adding night vision equipment and other "High Tech" goodies
that weighs 4 kilos, but make you have to carry another 3 kilos
in batteries to keep it working.

> There've been sugestions that soldiers be given personal robots
> (once they are developed to the point where they can walk over
> all kinds of terrain) to haul the gear, but I'm not sure even
> that will lighten the load. They'll just load the robot to its
> max and then add 40 more kilos on the soldier.

The progression continues to Heinlein's "Starship Troopers".
--
Richard A. Macdonald. CPA/EA
SSG (Ret), USA, ADA 16P34
Dedicated follower of Fr Luca Paccioli, Master Juggler.
Delenda est Carthago -- Cato the Elder



--------________--------________--------

From marna at marna.ca  Mon Aug  4 23:46:51 2003
From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:46:51 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Punctuation (WAS OT:- Can't stand it any more)
References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030802090730.03dc6ae8@pop.luna.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3F2EE179.E369984@marna.ca>

"James M. BRYANT, G4CLF" wrote:
> 
> Marna says she:-
> 
>  >...must get around to learning to punctuate.
> 
> Decadence! Depravity! Moral turpentine!
> 
> Are we going to tolerate this sort of thing
> on a respectable list?

Presumably not; why do you think I hang around this one, instead? 

Marna, back from MiniFest.



--------________--------________--------

From mitchmiller at entertainmenttax.com  Tue Aug  5 00:10:25 2003
From: mitchmiller at entertainmenttax.com (Mitch Miller)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:10:25 -0700
Subject: [LMB] The Babies/Barrayaran History; Where Do You Get Those Crazy
 Ideas?
Message-ID: <A752B46B661B7C4FAEE8B736DF87F4A40E1AD1@BRINET.bricare.com>

Will Barrayar ever come to grips with its history?  It certainly has not taken long for the US to become aware of our treatment of the Indians, Jim Crow, the internment of the Japanese, etc.  You may not like the resolution, but at least awareness has reached the population.  Even in Japan, which still denies that they did things like the Rape of Nanking and the Korean, Filipino, etc. "comfort women," at least many people are aware of the issue.  I would think with the omnipresence of communications and the relative ease of galactic travel, at least the more well-educated on Barrayar would have some knowledge of what really went on.

<snip>
I read this as avoiding telling Drou that the
babies were the result of rape, and the fathers
were mostly either not willing or not permitted
to take the babies. . . 

     Nancy Barber
<snip>

To quote Isaac Asimov:

"Take an Empire that is Roman
And you'll find it's quite at home in
All the starry Milky Way."

Mitch Miller

<snip>
From: "Peter H. Granzeau" <pgranzeau at cox.net>

David Drake specializes in retelling existing plots.   I can remember one 
based on a tale in the Icelandic Eddas, another based on the voyages of Sir 
Francis Drake, and so forth.  He has been involved in two series in which 
the situation is that of Justinian and Belisarius.

Harry Turtledove has mined the history of the Byzantine Empire for 
virtually all of his "Videssos" novels.
<snip>



--------________--------________--------

From dhbenton at worldnet.att.net  Tue Aug  5 00:58:14 2003
From: dhbenton at worldnet.att.net (Dawn Benton)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:58:14 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Baba, etc. OT: (was: Matchmaker names)
References: <B74C26FFD527D3119270009027615574F1F170@gg-exch1.gg.lfv.se>
Message-ID: <017d01c35ae4$47537140$75d75c0c@primepc>

From: <bo.h.johansson at lfv.se>
> It seems to be one of those a-a words that are easy for babies
> to say. They seem to excist in most(?) languages but they have
> different meanings in different languages.
>
Bo's examples snipped.

To add to the list, here are some examples in Mandarin:
baba (father/fu chin)
mama (mother/ mu chin)
I really think it is due to the limited linquistic capacity of babies.
Anyone know the relevent terms in any Native American languages or
Australian Aboriginal languages.  Those being some of the most anciently
separated.  If they also should have such terms, it would seem to support
the baby language hypothesis.

Dawn



--------________--------________--------

From nancy at dendarii.com  Tue Aug  5 01:04:49 2003
From: nancy at dendarii.com (Nancy Barber)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:04:49 -0400
Subject: [LMB] The Babies/Barrayaran History
In-Reply-To: <A752B46B661B7C4FAEE8B736DF87F4A40E1AD1@BRINET.bricare.com>
References: <A752B46B661B7C4FAEE8B736DF87F4A40E1AD1@BRINET.bricare.com>
Message-ID: <p05111700bb54a4329527@[10.0.1.2]>

>  I would think with the omnipresence of communications
>and the relative ease of galactic travel, at least the more
>well-educated on Barrayar would have some knowledge
>of what really went on.

But there's no free press on Barrayar, IIRC, so
all that omnipresent communication equipment may
not be communicating the dirty secrets of the
last war.

     Nancy Barber



--------________--------________--------

From Robert at WarnickeLittler.com  Tue Aug  5 01:17:24 2003
From: Robert at WarnickeLittler.com (Robert Warnicke)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:17:24 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT:  Was Hugo nominees, now Michael Flynn too
In-Reply-To: <200308042219.h74MJQj6011204@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000001c35ae6$f2ee0950$6b01a8c0@D6FL1B21>

Noel Rappin wrote:

> (thanks to whoever recommended Michael Flynn's _The
> Wreck of The River of Stars_).

I read his Fire Star, ? Star and Rogue Star books.  I thought Fire Star
was good, but the sequels... well they were _just_ sequels.  I read Fire
Star after reading a bunch of stuff from this list about LEO, SSTO, RLV
and other alphabet soup stuff that really assisted my comprehension.  I
thought his future was realistic enough, and it certainly seemed to
square with some things that ultimately happened with our space program.

What's the "Wreck" book about?
  
BTW the "Years of: book by Robinson; I hope it get more interesting
soon.  So far its been mostly forgettable, and I must be almost a 100
pages in...

--------
Robert W



--------________--------________--------

From mathews55 at msn.com  Tue Aug  5 01:19:38 2003
From: mathews55 at msn.com (PAT MATHEWS)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:19:38 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Baba, etc. OT: (was: Matchmaker names)
Message-ID: <BAY4-F17wn5FkS6AvwI00020b40@hotmail.com>

>From: bo.h.johansson at lfv.se
>
>Some examples:

>- kaka (to shit in Swedish)
>
>Anyone know more about this?
>
    and in Spanish, "caca," same pronunciation.

_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail



--------________--------________--------

From kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net  Tue Aug  5 01:38:48 2003
From: kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net (Jill Wyrtham)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:38:48 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Baba, etc. OT: (was: Matchmaker names)
References: <BAY4-F17wn5FkS6AvwI00020b40@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c35ae9$ef967280$9e19fea9@attbi.com>

>     and in Spanish, "caca," same pronunciation.

My favorite latin curse is "mentulam caco", which translates literally to "I
sh*t on your pr*ck!". Brings a lovely picture to mind...

Jill

***Sig Error 406 -- Too Lazy to Type Clever Sig***



--------________--------________--------

From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com  Mon Aug  4 20:30:07 2003
From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 15:30:07 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Lois at Balticon in 2004
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030804151908.009f8080@pop3.norton.antivirus>

from rec.music.filk:

Heather Alexander has accepted an invitation to be Music Guest of
Honor at Balticon 38, Memorial Day Weekend May 28 - 31, 2004 in
Baltimore Maryland. Heather will bring her mix of filk, folk and
Celtic music to Balticon enriching an already stellar lineup of Author
Goh Lois McMaster Bujold, Art Goh Dave Seeley and Compton Crook
winning author Patricia Bray. In addition to the Guest of Honor
concert we expect Heather to headline the strong musical program at
Balticon which traditionally includes night-time filk events and
afternoon filk panels as well as other SF related musical styles. As
con-chair I am overjoyed to bring Heather to Maryland so her east
coast fans can experience the magic in person. Balticon information
will be available as it develops at www.balticon.org

Of course, their priorities are a bit skewed, but at least Lois got top 
mention. ;)

Jerrie, who thinks you don't have to be a geologist [like Cat Faber] to 
know that Lois and Heather really rock. <weg>



--------________--------________--------

From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com  Tue Aug  5 02:46:04 2003
From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:46:04 -0400
Subject: [LMB] TorCon planning query
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030804214135.00a24750@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Diane E. generously proposes a Thursday night buffet at TorCon.

Yay, Diane!  I think it's great that you're providing a way for folks to 
get together early on in the con and make some plans.

Jerrie, whose spouse Marty is excited about the socializing opportunities 
too; maybe he can find someone to go to the *one* baseball game with him on 
Monday.  [J-Mag, will *you* be at TorCon? ;)]



--------________--------________--------

From paal at gis.net  Tue Aug  5 02:49:11 2003
From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:49:11 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: Biology & sexuality OT:
References: <20030804.005223.487.273995@webmail14.lax.untd.com>
Message-ID: <09bd01c35af3$c5253a90$0100a8c0@LAPTOP>

-- Paula Lieberman
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kirsten Edwards" <carbonelle at juno.com>


> Sara (thank you) expands further upon her assessment:
> "it's very unladylike to fight, but even more unladylike
> to win."
>
> By adding:
>
> "That was me, and I was speaking of the adult disapproval
> that got heaped on my head for 1)fighting back against
> bullies, and 2) kicking their asses in the process."
>
> You sure it was the *winning* that got you in trouble
> and not the fact that you inflicted measurable damage?

"You are a Young Lady and Young Ladies do not...." "Boys will be boys, you
are a Young Lady...."

There was a double standard in effect, bigtime, as regards "it's okay for
BOYS to be harassing, but you can't fight back."

And I -should- have kicked a number of my public school contemporaries in
the testicles.... but no, somehow I was inculcated with that not being
allowed, despite their constant verbal and physical harrassment of me....
had I done so, they probably would have STOPPED, and -fast-.

> And that the guy you pounded didn't end up in trouble
> for fighting too, even if you were relatively unscathed
> (Yes, I'm reporting an incident from, IIRC, 6th grade :-)
>
> But your addenda to my assertion that girls resist
> beating guys (as opposed to merely beating them up)
> because it interferes with the sexual dance that
> preoccupies them. (And the guys, but right now

Girls used to be taught that it's "unladylike" to fight back in any direct
overt manner.  If you have been reading Michelle Sagara West's series _The
Sun Sword_, the Serrras of the Dominion of Annagar don't have any legal
power; the power they exercise is through grace and perfection, and the
bowing and apparent yielding, in which bending and evading is the ultimate
obdurance and defiance and ways of controlling....  the women of the Empire
of Essaliyien however can exercise power in their own names; there are
cultural clashes over those and many other things in those books.

 > the young ladies *don't* generally have the social
> conditioning/cultural influences wh. would give them
> as much power in this, er mutual obsession. A pity)
>
> "Not buying biology as an explanation, though.  I
> think that the **physical** differences between men and
> women **that affect behavior** are hard as hell to

The average Watusi is a LOT taller than the average Pygmy, regardless of
gender.  Female Watusi are much taller than male pymgies....   there is
statistical bias that the height of females is shorter than males, BUT, the
overall variances are so great, that saying "men are stronger than women"
says NOTHING about any specific individual.   That sort of thing may also
got for psychological outllooks... and cultural influences start as soon at
the parents find out the gender of the offspring.

> quantify, and impossible to separate out from
> social/cultural influences."
>
> Missed my point--in *EVERY* human society everywhere,
> people modify their behaviour in response to opportunities
> to mate--that's a v. powerful force for young folks--and

Oh? What about homosexuals, bisexuals, and castratri?!!

> social/cultural influences can only go so far to mitigate
> it.

There are cultures, however, in which females get to go and make the make
choices, and the males prettify themselves and stand and dance.... one of
the PBS shows on culture and/or gender showed that particular culture.



--------________--------________--------

From marna at marna.ca  Tue Aug  5 03:07:29 2003
From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:07:29 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: Biology & sexuality OT:
References: <20030804.005223.487.273995@webmail14.lax.untd.com>
Message-ID: <3F2F1161.3CDC79A@marna.ca>

Kirsten Edwards suggests:

> girls resist
> beating guys (as opposed to merely beating them up)
> because it interferes with the sexual dance that
> preoccupies them. 

I have to say this strikes me as interesting  but improbable. 

In fact, if we buy the set of assumptions at all, and I do not, it
ought to forward it, by knocking the "less suitable" males out of the
running and leaving fewer but better to select from. 

Marna.



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Tue Aug  5 03:13:56 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:13:56 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: a-a words
Message-ID: <43.207a801e.2c606ce4@aol.com>

Bo Johansson writes:

> - kaka (to shit in Swedish)

Same word with "c" in Spanish.  Same meaning.
Mary



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Tue Aug  5 03:24:21 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:24:21 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 babies
Message-ID: <1c3.d594b2b.2c606f55@aol.com>

Alexandra H writes:

> I read this as avoiding telling Drou that the
> babies were the result of rape, and the fathers
> were mostly either not willing or not permitted
> to take the babies.  The fathers that weren't
> really dead, that is. Note that Cordelia tells
> Drou that Bothari loved Elena very much, and
> that "there were some similar cases", meaning
> the other 16.

I agree with your version.  The babies were unlikely to all have had the same 
father except for Elena without some comment from the medtech in Shards.  I 
would also think that some of the families of the dead soldiers might want 
their babies if they didn't know they were the result of rape, and maybe even if 
they did.  It would be something left of their son, after all, and no more 
unlikely than the Vorkosigans wanting Mark.  After all, Mark's life was the result 
of a crime, theft of Miles' tissue and unauthorized cloning.  Although-- 
neither of these probably would have been a crime on Jackson's Whole.

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From tlambs1138 at charter.net  Tue Aug  5 03:31:32 2003
From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:31:32 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: loads on soldiers
References: <200308042219.h74MJMj6011201@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <00f301c35af9$b2a043f0$18f1be42@Samantha>

>They'll just load the robot to its
>max and then add 40 more kilos on the soldier.

--
>Dan Tilque

--And the lightest member of the group will have to carry that _and_ the
radio _and_ the laptop with the satellite uplink...

Jean Lamb, tlambs1138 at charter.net
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you are crunchy and good with
lemon drops."



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Tue Aug  5 03:37:01 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:37:01 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 babies
Message-ID: <1a7.17efb239.2c60724d@aol.com>

Mitch Miller writes:

> 4.  Remember that the war was between Barrayar and a Betan/Escobarran 
> alliance.  I don't recall anything being said about Escobarrans having the same 
> birth control practices as Betans.  I thought it was quite clear that the 
> rapists were many more than just Serge and Vorruyter.  Remember that women had 
> been raped at the prison camp and Aral had the commandant shot for allowing it.
> 
Something _was_ said about it in Shards.  Elena Visconti had her 
contraceptive implant removed by Serg and Vorrutyer so she could be impregnated by 
Bothari, because pregnant women were Serg's particular fantasy (I don't know in what 
way.  I don't particularly want to know, either.)  No big deal was made about 
her having one in the first place, like she was alone in it, and it would make 
sense in a mixed army to have the women protected from getting pregnant as a 
result of rape, or even unintentionally in a relationship with a fellow 
soldier.  Seems more likely that the things had to be renewed periodically, and 
weren't while the women were POWs.

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net  Tue Aug  5 03:40:38 2003
From: kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net (Jill Wyrtham)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:40:38 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 babies
References: <1a7.17efb239.2c60724d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003f01c35afa$f5225e60$9e19fea9@attbi.com>

  Seems more likely that the things had to be renewed periodically, and
> weren't while the women were POWs.
>

This is always how it seemed to me. The attitude of the tech delivering the
17 babies was "you didn't expect these, but here they are anyway.". If the
Barrayarans were expecting full contraception, their raping wouldn't have
had such consequences. But if a few of the girls/women's implants had worn
out, then they would have become pregnant just as Mary suggests, but the
Barrayarans would not have known it at once. Thus the surprise when the 16
other babies were delivered.

Just my .02 credit's worth...

Jill

***Did your husband have any last requests? Well, yes, he asked me to put
down the gun.***



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Tue Aug  5 03:43:53 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:43:53 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Baba, etc. OT: (was: Matchmaker names)
In-Reply-To: <017d01c35ae4$47537140$75d75c0c@primepc>
References: <B74C26FFD527D3119270009027615574F1F170@gg-exch1.gg.lfv.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030804224022.028002d0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 07:58 PM 8/4/03 -0400, you wrote:
>Anyone know the relevent terms in any Native American languages or
>Australian Aboriginal languages.

Tsalagi (Cherokee)

Mother  e-tsi    (pronounced eh-chee, more or less)
Father   e-do-da   (pronounced with a tapped "d", almost a t but not quite)

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From paal at gis.net  Tue Aug  5 03:46:27 2003
From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:46:27 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Specialization
References: <17a.1e7a948f.2c5f0ec2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <0a7201c35afb$c575aae0$0100a8c0@LAPTOP>

Math and music are related talents.   Delve into music as regards things
like harmony, progressions, etc., and it's quite mathematical.   The
relationships between energy and sound volume, and between audio frequency
and vibrational modes of strings, are mathematical.

MIT has a large music library, and a music department which gives
degrees....

-- Paula Lieberman
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <CatMtn at aol.com>

> My favorite math prof in college also composed music, and one of my
> music-major friends complained that some of her courses were more math
than music.
> Personally, I think the two subjects are pretty closely related,
especially when
> you get into theory of music.



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Tue Aug  5 03:46:15 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:46:15 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Plots
Message-ID: <135.236d3ec2.2c607477@aol.com>

Susan in Bellevue writes:

> This is the second book I've read recently where the author took an
> exsisting plot and reworked it.  Is this cheating or creative?

I guess that depends on how creatively it's done.  I've loved some of the 
retellings of the old fairy tales, such as Beauty and Deerskin by Robin McKinley, 
for example, and there is a hilarious short story by Vicki Ann Heydron that 
is loosely based on The Frog Prince (in which a woman is turned into a mountain 
lion for a time), but some that don't admit where the story came from and try 
to disguise it are pretty bad.  Besides, a story based on a real history with 
a few interesting additions can be terrific--CoC for example.

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Tue Aug  5 03:50:35 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:50:35 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Packs
Message-ID: <a6.3b2950c5.2c60757b@aol.com>

Dan Tilque writes:

> They'll just load the robot to its
> max and then add 40 more kilos on the soldier.

That calls up a vivid mental picture for me of an army of 
old-prospector-desert-rat types leading their donkey-shaped robots with huge packsaddles into 
battle--- Wouldn't something more like Heinlein's powered suits be more 
practical?

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From megj at nwlink.com  Tue Aug  5 03:56:52 2003
From: megj at nwlink.com (MegJ)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:56:52 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Biology & sexuality OT:
References: <20030804.005223.487.273995@webmail14.lax.untd.com>
 <09bd01c35af3$c5253a90$0100a8c0@LAPTOP>
Message-ID: <014901c35afd$b39ef270$d7e84b43@meg>

Paula:
> There was a double standard in effect, bigtime, as regards "it's okay for
> BOYS to be harassing, but you can't fight back."

Depends on how you fight back and who's in charge when the consequences
happen.  There was a group of about four or five boys who harassed me
mercilessly every lunchtime for about a week back when I was in junior high
(I was about 13, so this was about 30 years ago).  I got fed up and dumped a
carton of milk over the ringleader's head.  When we both got sent to the
principal's office, *he* was the one who got in trouble.  I'm not quite sure
why things turned out that way because I was so furious that I was crying,
and my memory of what happened in that office is a bit fuzzy.

I wasn't ever harassed after that.

Megaera
who learned a vital lesson about standing up for herself then



--------________--------________--------

From kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net  Tue Aug  5 03:57:58 2003
From: kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net (Jill Wyrtham)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:57:58 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Packs
References: <a6.3b2950c5.2c60757b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c35afd$60cd5140$9e19fea9@attbi.com>

> That calls up a vivid mental picture for me of an army of
> old-prospector-desert-rat types leading their donkey-shaped robots with
huge packsaddles into
> battle--- Wouldn't something more like Heinlein's powered suits be more
> practical?

The military is working on powered exoskeletons but they aren't designed to
help carry loads over long distances, IIRC. Instead, they are designed to
help lift heavy things like a rock trapping an injured soldier, that sort of
deal. The pack robots are treaded and look basically like a miniature tank
with a large carrying compartment. I think our technology is at least
several decades away from the full MI suits RAH envisioned. (BTW, do a
search on CNN and you'll find articles on all these topics with photos.)

Does anyone remember that Heinlein wrote about "booster guns" (multiple
barrel long-range cannon) long before they were developed in WW2? He also
came up with Waldoes, which are named for the story "Waldo" about a guy with
myasthenia gravis. What a mind!!! (Anyone know of any other RAH inventions
that have actually become real?)

Jill

***She asked the bartender for a double entendre, so he gave her one.***



--------________--------________--------

From paal at gis.net  Tue Aug  5 04:06:46 2003
From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:06:46 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Bullies; Male and Female soldiers;  Spanish-style
 "fantasies"; What happened to the implants
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030804173104.02801750@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <0a9501c35afe$9bf23280$0100a8c0@LAPTOP>

-- Paula Lieberman
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sara A." <mabonwy at mindspring.com>


> At 12:00 PM 8/4/03 -0700, you wrote:
> >1.  As any male who is short, fat, thin, wears eyeglasses, is of a
> >different ethnic group, etc., etc., etc., schoolyard bullying occurs
> >against males equally or more so than against females.
>
> I don't doubt it, but that really doesn't change anything that's been said
> on the subject.  Talking about how boys bully girls, and how it plays out,
> doesn't mean they don't bully each other.  But the dynamic is a little
> different, and has different implications

Bullying varies culturally -- the girl bullying I had -tended- to be less
direct physical abuse and more social abuse.... there was physical abuse,
however.  And it usually but not always tended more towards pinching and
poking and slugging and overt shoving.

But. that was where I was, at the time I wa there.... other places and
times, the situations can be quite different.



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Tue Aug  5 04:07:04 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:07:04 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Packs
In-Reply-To: <a6.3b2950c5.2c60757b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030804230232.02806710@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:50 PM 8/4/03 -0400, you wrote:
> > They'll just load the robot to its
> > max and then add 40 more kilos on the soldier.


Well, that's because the limiting factor in the equation is how much one 
person can carry and handle.  As weapons technology improves, the amount of 
devastation one person can unleash will go up, but the weight of their gear 
will remain the same.  I would be willing to bet that the weight of the 
gear carried by a Sumerian foot soldier was roughly equivalent to the 
amount a modern infantry soldier carries today.  And so on ad infinitum, ad 
astra.

:)

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com  Tue Aug  5 04:10:53 2003
From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:10:53 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Birthday
Message-ID: <Law11-F32CpOse4BYGM0001e35b@hotmail.com>

Tixor the Great invited us to help celebrate:
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 06:12:49 -0500

>Today, my friends, we honor Paula Gillis, who today completes her
thirtieth year. Paula is a resident of the Garden State and an alumna of
that most excellent college, St. John's. Paula, may your horses always
be biddable <glares offstage>, may your corner of Joisey never grow
more crowded, and may your day be filled with all that is good.<

Happy Boithday, Paula, to continue Jim's Joisey accent <g>! I hope you've 
had a wonderful day filled with family, friends, and fillies <g>. May your 
thirties be bright and full of accomplishments! (Kipper says Happy Birthday 
to a Johnnie! - 2 1/2 weeks left to go...) Feliz cumpleaqos!
Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail



--------________--------________--------

From kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net  Tue Aug  5 04:17:54 2003
From: kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net (Jill Wyrtham)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:17:54 -0600
Subject: [LMB] OT: Coping With Bullying in School
References: <20030804.005223.487.273995@webmail14.lax.untd.com>
 <09bd01c35af3$c5253a90$0100a8c0@LAPTOP>
 <014901c35afd$b39ef270$d7e84b43@meg>
Message-ID: <005901c35b00$29c4d940$9e19fea9@attbi.com>

I was an AP kid (skipped one grade) and for various reasons too tedious to
go into here, I was very unpopular in high school. One male jerk found it
amusing to hit me in the back of the head with a text book every day on my
trek between clases (this was late 1960's BTW). I complained but he was the
nephew of the principal, so nothing happened (this was rural Louisianna).

I arranged to have one of my textbooks at gut level a few days later as I
walked along. As he passed by me I stepped in front of him and thus shoved
the book right into his solar plexus (or that general region), hard. Note
that there was no violence on my part, just an "accidental" collision in the
hallway. He collapsed and had to go to the infirmary, although no real
damage was done. I made it clear in the ensuing meeting in the principal's
office that unless he avoided me from then on, the same thing would happen
every day, in all sorts of inventive ways that couldn't be used to justify
an expulsion. Despite dire threats, I was not expelled, graduated with
honors, and went on to college. My tormentor went into the Army and was
killed in Vietnam. Wierdly, I felt sorry for him.

ObBujold: It would be interesting to see more on how Miles coped with his
tormentors. The "verbal" technique hinted at in Komarr would be lovely to
have in detail...

Jill

***"Outlive the bastards." Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign***



--------________--------________--------

From ndrosen at erols.com  Tue Aug  5 04:26:46 2003
From: ndrosen at erols.com (Nicholas Rosen)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:26:46 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: Yentas OT: (was: Matchmaker names)
Message-ID: <027d01c35b01$6a497600$88372c42@oemcomputer>

Michael Bauminger wrote:

> A "yenta" is a gossip. Not just a gossip, but a
> talkative, inveterate one. Sometimes a yenta can mean someone who
> will just not stop talking, but it mostly means a gossip, and it
> almost always refers to a female.

But Isaac Asimov said that while it is common for female
forms to be coined from male (like waitress from waiter,
or chairwoman from chairman), the other way around is
not unknown.  And he gave his example:  "Harlan Ellison
is a yenter."


Regards,
Nicholas Rosen

No taxes, and a pension for everyone.



--------________--------________--------

From ginni.berger at juno.com  Tue Aug  5 04:36:57 2003
From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:36:57 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Packs
Message-ID: <20030804.233806.1548.0.ginni.berger@juno.com>

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:07:04 -0400 "Sara A." <mabonwy at mindspring.com>
writes:
> At 10:50 PM 8/4/03 -0400, you wrote:
> > > They'll just load the robot to its
> > > max and then add 40 more kilos on the soldier.
> 
 I would be willing to bet that the weight of 
> the 
> gear carried by a Sumerian foot soldier was roughly equivalent to 
> the 
> amount a modern infantry soldier carries today.  And so on ad 
> infinitum, ad 
> astra.
> 
> :)
> 
> Sara
> -- 

Don't forget that the Romans carried a heavy pack, including a log to
create the palisade every night, shovels and were expected to hoof 40
miles a day. He also had to carry rations of bread and whatever dried
foods they could carry, because no wagons followed the Roman infantry as
they couldn't keep  up with the army. Roman soldiers were also expected
to know how to swim, forage and carry heavy shields as they marched. I
think they probably carried more than 40 kilos, easily. Although, they
didn't need to worry about fighting carrying all of that since most
battles were mutual battles. The soldiers of the future probably will,
since they'll need to move fast with their armor surrounding them. But
soldiers will probably be enhanced in some way, so I expect it won't feel
as heavy to them if they're wearing powered armor, and enhanced, like in
the Halo series.

Ginnilee
Lady Lavender of Teal



--------________--------________--------

From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com  Tue Aug  5 04:46:10 2003
From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:46:10 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT:  Was Hugo nominees, now Michael Flynn tooMiniloiscon
 by proxy
Message-ID: <Law11-F37b5YI9IJsaJ0002abce@hotmail.com>

"Robert Warnicke" writes:
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:17:24 -0700

Hey, Rob and all!

>BTW the "Years of: book by Robinson; I hope it get more interesting
soon.  So far its been mostly forgettable, and I must be almost a 100
pages in...<

Oh, sure, NOW you tell me...<g> After you wrote about it last week, I went 
out and purchased it over the weekend! Along with Greg Bear's Darwin's 
Children (reading now and enjoying enormously), Steve Stirling's The Ship 
Avenged, and  - Yippee - a preorder of PoS! I decided to go Barnes & Noble 
because it might make more noise at a store than online. The clerk told me 
he couldn't do it. We worked out that it WAS, in fact, possible <g>.

I also ordered a PB copy of The Alex Studies, the non-fiction book about the 
work with the African Grey parrot, Alex, at the University of Arizona. That 
should be interesting (from one bird brain to another - newer listees may 
not know that I consider that to be the *highest* compliment <g>).

Also - short Miniloiscon report. At least, I *think* it counts as a 
Miniloiscon! Miniloiscon by proxy, in any event! Friday, I had the pleasure 
of having lunch with Guido/Em, Casey Allison/Kay Carrasco's daughter, who 
has been written muchly about on the list. Em spoke of it as "our" list, so 
she is a listee by proxy, as well. A delightful, selfpossessed young lady, 
Em is a sophomore at one of the universities in New Mexico that I always get 
wrong, so I won't try the name (except it's in the Eastern portion...), as a 
band major. She and her friend got to meet Kipper (and vice versa) and me at 
our favorite little Mediterranean restaurant (owned by two ladies from 
Taiwan!) who serve the best Moroccan chicken outside of Fez! A good time was 
had by all, despite the fact that she had been forced to rear end a car with 
her new jeep a couple of hours before. Luckily, no one was hurt, just shaken 
up. Another case of detritus in the Phoenix roadway...Rob, you're probably 
also used to ducking boxes, shoes, beds, etc., casually strewn in the 
freeway or streets...ah, Phoenix driving <g>

Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper

_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail



--------________--------________--------

From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com  Tue Aug  5 04:56:10 2003
From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:56:10 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Birthday
Message-ID: <Law11-F103ebm4M2S0g0002aa51@hotmail.com>

lorraine fletez-brant miswrote with some help from Hotmail:
Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:10:53 -0700

>Feliz cumpleaqos!<


Well, Paula, on MY screen it really was an "enya," not a "q." Evil, Evil 
Hotmail! I have NO idea what Hotmail wanted to wish you <g>! Frank showed me 
that "alt 164" gets you the "n" with the tilda over it. That was how it 
showed up. Then, when I went to the current archives to read new mail, I saw 
that it had been changed to a "q!"

Well, whatever it was, I hope it was good!

Lorraine - shaking her head at the vagaries and iniquities of her Evil 
Hotmail system...

_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Tue Aug  5 05:00:17 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:00:17 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Heinlein "inventions"
Message-ID: <55.455cba2b.2c6085d1@aol.com>

Jill writes:

> (Anyone know of any other RAH inventions
> that have actually become real?)
> 
I think there were many--I'll have to see if I can find any more.  Didn't the 
space program honor him in some way as a creative inspiration?

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Tue Aug  5 05:08:10 2003
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:08:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Packs
In-Reply-To: <20030804.233806.1548.0.ginni.berger@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0308042346370.25098-100000@pannier.cfsc.ottaw
 a.on.ca>

Ever read The Recollections of Rifleman Harris (by John Harris, as told to
Henry Curling)?

Harris was an actual British soldier in the 95th Rifles in the Peninsular
War (part of the Napoleonic Wars), and he wrote/dictated his story after
being invalided out of the army (from malaria ("the ague"), not wounds).
[And if you're wondering whether this book inspired Bernard Cornwell in
writing the Sharpe series, I would judge that extremely likely, although
"Harris" in the series is not really like the real-life man.]

According to Harris' description, a soldier's knapsack contained his kit,
his greatcoat, blanket and camp kettle, ship-biscuit and beef for three
days, and in Harris' case, all his tools and leather for repairing shoes.
Then there was the canteen filled with water, the hatchet and rifle, and
eighty rounds of ball cartridge in a pouch.

Harris described this as enough weight to "impede the free motions of a
donkey"; imagine carrying this when tired, starving, and barely ahead of
the enemy. "My own knapsack was my bitterest enemy; I felt it press me to
the earth almost at times, and more than once felt as if I should die
under its deadly embrace."

In other words, things hadn't changed much in 19 centuries!

On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, ginnilee p berger wrote:
> Don't forget that the Romans carried a heavy pack, including a log to
> create the palisade every night, shovels and were expected to hoof 40
> miles a day. He also had to carry rations of bread and whatever dried
> foods they could carry, because no wagons followed the Roman infantry as
> they couldn't keep  up with the army.

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca

"I believe God is a librarian. I believe that literature is holy ... it is that best part of
our souls that we break off and give each other, and God has a special dispensation for it,
angels to guard its making and its preservation." -- Sarah Smith, _Chasing Shakespeares_



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Tue Aug  5 05:23:23 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:23:23 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Bullying
Message-ID: <1e6.e5bb5c0.2c608b3b@aol.com>

Paula Lieberman writes:

> Bullying varies culturally -- the girl bullying I had -tended- to be less
> direct physical abuse and more social abuse.... there was physical abuse,
> however.  And it usually but not always tended more towards pinching and
> poking and slugging and overt shoving.
> 
> But. that was where I was, at the time I was there.... other places and
> times, the situations can be quite different.

As I recall, none of the girls actually engaged in any physical bullying.  
Their bullying was more on the exclusion from any conversation because I was 
"just a baby--don't say that in front of her."  The boys, on the other hand---at 
least one or two out of a class of around twenty students, had no compunctions 
about knocking me down, pulling my hair, punching, kicking, etc. to the point 
that finally some of the other boys started to make them stop.  One little 
jerk in particular ended up about 5'6" when I was 5'8", though, and paid dearly 
for his sins.  I never really got in trouble for it, as the principal believed 
me when I told him the simple truth.  I got sent home a few times to get 
patched up and get untorn clothing, but that was all.  I was probably in the ninth 
or tenth grade before my dad told me that he thought it was time I hung up 
the gloves, so to speak.  Actually, I think he was relieved that I was able and 
willing to defend myself, and that was really a surprising attitude for a man 
born in 1890.

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Tue Aug  5 05:34:28 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:34:28 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Packs
Message-ID: <27.459a1fcc.2c608dd4@aol.com>

Jill Wyrtham writes:

> The pack robots are treaded and look basically like a miniature tank
> with a large carrying compartment.

It just seems that it would be too easy to get separated from your trackpack, 
or to lose it to the enemy, or any one of the many other things that could 
separate a soldier from his supplies and ammo.  Maybe they could come when 
called?

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From marna at marna.ca  Tue Aug  5 05:44:52 2003
From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:44:52 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Packs
References: <27.459a1fcc.2c608dd4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F2F363E.31EA27FC@marna.ca>

CatMtn at aol.com wrote:
 
Re: pack robots 
 
> It just seems that it would be too easy to get separated from your trackpack,
> or to lose it to the enemy, or any one of the many other things that could
> separate a soldier from his supplies and ammo.  Maybe they could come when
> called?

Sounds like The Luggage.  

The mind reels. 

Marna.



--------________--------________--------

From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Tue Aug  5 05:55:11 2003
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:55:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Packs
In-Reply-To: <3F2F363E.31EA27FC@marna.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0308050053150.25098-100000@pannier.cfsc.ottaw
 a.on.ca>

CatMtn at aol.com wrote:
> It just seems that it would be too easy to get separated from your
> trackpack, [...] Maybe they could come when called?

On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Marna Nightingale wrote:
> Sounds like The Luggage.
> The mind reels.

Giggle, chortle, great end of the day comment ...

Thank-you, Marna.

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca

"I believe God is a librarian. I believe that literature is holy ... it is that best part of
our souls that we break off and give each other, and God has a special dispensation for it,
angels to guard its making and its preservation." -- Sarah Smith, _Chasing Shakespeares_



--------________--------________--------

From otherlois at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  5 05:55:26 2003
From: otherlois at yahoo.com (Lois Aleta Fundis)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:55:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [LMB] Baba, etc. OT: (was: Matchmaker names)
In-Reply-To: <BAY4-F17wn5FkS6AvwI00020b40@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20030805045526.4459.qmail@web60005.mail.yahoo.com>

Pat and Bo are comparing a very similar set of Spanish
and Swedish words, and Bo wonders if anyone knows
anything more.

It's a very ancient Indo-European word that has been
preserved in many modern IE languages.

Ever hear a bit of music so bad, or at least so badly
played, that you think, "That sounds like sh*t!"  The
ancient Greeks had a word for this: cacophony, from
kakos, meaning bad (a very close descendant of the
Indo-European root kakka meaning you know what), and
phone meaning sound.

The appendix of Indo-European roots in the American
Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 4th ed., 
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE200.html
lists several more words decended directly from this
root, including poppycock. It also lists an Old Norse
cognate word Old Norse *kuka, to defecate, probably a
close ancestor of Bo's word.


=====
Lois Fundis ("the other Lois")     otherlois at yahoo.com

visit my blog -- http://auntlowey.blogspot.com

"I didn't vote for him."

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
http://calendar.yahoo.com



--------________--------________--------

From carosue at centurytel.net  Tue Aug  5 05:58:45 2003
From: carosue at centurytel.net (House of Unruly Fish)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:58:45 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Poor Simon's Almanack - Aug 5
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030804005052.00bd1f28@mail.so.centurytel.net>

Happy Birthday, Neil Armstrong, you high stepper, you!

This Day In Listory:

2002 - POST FROM LOIS commenting on various CoC related posts and also 
sharing the glad news she had finally escaped the dread Chapter 19 of The 
New Thing.
2001 - (Digests 4424-6) POST FROM LOIS requesting listees to clue up 
bookstore owners as to the ACTUAL street release date for CoC, since a 
false one got spread around, and thanking the listees for all the helpful 
word of mouth.  Diane Echelbarger reports from the CoC booksigning and 
shares yummy hints for the future. She also starts off a fun new game, 
Barrayaran Clue. "Lord Ivan, in the bathroom, with the ice bucket." Another 
POST FROM LOIS thanks Michael Bauminger for finding an error in CoC.
2000 - (Digests 3515-7) Katie Schwarz helps settle the question of whether 
Ivan will ever have a Countship with a rePOST FROM LOIS (via Baen's Bar. 
[3516]  Probably not, is the answer.)
1999 - (Digests 2613-5) POSTS FROM LOIS about a few upcoming con 
appearances, and that she has her personal copies of ACC in hand! Ideas 
being shared about how to get copies of ACC most efficiently.  Louann 
Miller makes her first post about the Dome Home she and Russ are going to 
build. Plus Chapter 9.2 is up!
1998 - (Digests 1786-9) List discussion work proceeds on the new (seriously 
needed) OT: marker.  Some fun bits here and there in regard to a plan to 
actually explode a Cuisinart for Lois's delectation at a con.
1997 - (Digests 803-4) Pat Wrede assures the list that Lois is perfectly 
happy to sign her any of her books, whether acquired new or used.  Adam Ek 
entertains us with more "You might be a fan if...."
1996 - (Digest 328) One post wondering where everyone else is!
1995 - (Digest 42) Much of interest on marriage in general and in specific 
for various characters.

Respectfully submitted by,

Susan the Neon Nurse

All the above info collected from:

http://lists.herald.co.uk/old-archives/lois-bujold/

and the New List archives at

http://lists.herald.co.uk/pipermail/lois-bujold/

Additions, corrections or giant leaps of faith may be sent to carosue at 
centurytel.net



--------________--------________--------

From kelts at earthlink.net  Tue Aug  5 06:10:43 2003
From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:10:43 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Poor Simon's Almanack - Aug 4
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030803010106.00bd6d18@mail.so.centurytel.net>
Message-ID: <000501c35b0f$ec09ad00$c9422904@earthlink.net>

> And Chinese Valentine's Day, which is also called the Daughter's 
> Festival.  So Happy Whatever Works For You!

ObChalion:
It just SOOO feels the wrong time of year for the Daughter's Festival!

Laura



--------________--------________--------

From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com  Tue Aug  5 06:12:57 2003
From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 01:12:57 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Orson Scott Card interview
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030805011216.00a0bec0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

INTERVIEW
Orson Scott Card, award-winning author of "Ender's Game," brings readers
behind the scenes of a modern classic.
http://www.scifiweekly.com/issue328/interview.html

Many of us enjoyed meeting him at TrinocCon last year.

Jerrie



--------________--------________--------

From dtilque at nwlink.com  Tue Aug  5 07:22:23 2003
From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:22:23 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Heinlein inventions (was Re: OT: Packs
References: <a6.3b2950c5.2c60757b@aol.com>
 <004d01c35afd$60cd5140$9e19fea9@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <00ca01c35b19$efa9d2a0$2c7eadcf@nwlink.com>

Jill Wyrtham wrote:

>
> Does anyone remember that Heinlein wrote about "booster guns"
> (multiple barrel long-range cannon) long before they were
> developed in WW2?

What story was this in? I don't recall this from any of his early
stories.

>(Anyone know of any other RAH
> inventions that have actually become real?)

Smart missiles. In _Starship Troopers_, they have handheld smart
missiles with tactical nukes!

--
Dan Tilque



--------________--------________--------

From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com  Tue Aug  5 07:27:08 2003
From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 02:27:08 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Biology & sexuality OT:
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030805021728.00a10350@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Lots of gals on the list are telling how they stood up to male bullies in 
school.  Before Pilot [or other worthy listie males] jumps in with how he 
stood up to bullying females, here's a [very] brief tale:

One day in 6th grade, the guy sitting in front of me kept turning around & 
rolling my pencil down my desk.  After repeated requests to stop did 
nothing, I did, beaning the lout with my ruler [1/2 inch of solid wood, she 
side-noted with a certain smug satisfaction, still fresh after nearly 3 
decades].  After the ensuing uproar, when we both had to write 5-page 
reports, I felt that justice had been served.

[Hey, that was as close to fair as that particular teacher ever got.  This 
is the woman who regaled us with stories of her parents dining on a balcony 
overlooking the Mississippi and seeing dead bodies floating down the 
river.  Yet she got upset when I had one of the class artists draw some 
skeletons on the class undersea mural.  Granted, I'm somewhat morbid anyway 
{hence, the lawyer ;) }, but there was provocation.  I was just relieved to 
avoid the nose in the inconveniently-placed circle on the 
chalkboard.  Let's just say, fun and frolic were not in this woman's lexicon.]

Jerrie, looking forward to more legendary listie sagas



--------________--------________--------

From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com  Tue Aug  5 07:29:39 2003
From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 02:29:39 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Heinlein inventions
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030805022820.00a3a190@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Jill Wyrtham [she of the worthy discussion] asks:

>(Anyone know of any other RAH inventions that have actually become real?)

In the 1940s he wrote about cooking in microwave ovens and sending pictures 
and text via "facsimulator" machines.

Jerrie



--------________--------________--------

From hotchkiss-c at webtv.net  Tue Aug  5 07:34:59 2003
From: hotchkiss-c at webtv.net (Jane Hotchkiss)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 02:34:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] Re: LBM: OT: Biology & sexuality
In-Reply-To: lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk's message of Tue, 5
 Aug 2003 04:08:12 +0100
Message-ID: <7810-3F2F5013-4199@storefull-2377.public.lawson.webtv.net>

Maybe Meg had less trouble from the principal because there was no real
damage to her harasser. If she'd hit him with the tray rather than
dumping milk,  there would be more damage than just washing clothes,
bodies, & the floor. 

Jane



--------________--------________--------

From mike at g8ifu.f9.co.uk  Tue Aug  5 07:26:42 2003
From: mike at g8ifu.f9.co.uk (Mike Allen)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 07:26:42 +0100
Subject: [LMB] Baba, etc. OT , Queens , NZ navy , male/female military
Message-ID: <006d01c35b1e$875ef680$687538d4@mikealle>

>It seems to be one of those a-a words that are easy
>for babies to say.
This may give the words a very long life , so that they
carry through into linguistic groups . Mama & papa
virtually define the Indo-European languages .
Incidentally , caco is the Lain for the Swedish kaka ,
and cack is used in English (although the Concise OED
onlly gives cack-handed = left-handed) .
Even further OT the COED gives crap as Middle English
deriving from Dutch for rubish . Can anyone give me a
textref for its use in English before Thos Crapper started
making sanitary ware (c 1850)

>Juana, who (like all queens named Joan)
was mad,
This reputation attatches to any woman who attempts
to actualli rule , instead of leaving it to her husband etc .
Except of course Elizabeth 1 who was only eccentric .

>4 frigates
Plus the ceremonial war canoes , with crews in full
Maori that should put off most , it would me ;-)

>it's not at all clear to me why, in this day of lighter weapons,
ammunition, equipment, clothing, etc., that an infantryman
has to be able to hump 100 pounds of gear
Basically because they can . Contingency planning will give
every soldier the maximum possible resources immediately
available ie on their back .

Mike Allen



--------________--------________--------

From dtilque at nwlink.com  Tue Aug  5 08:05:50 2003
From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:05:50 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 babies
References: <1a7.17efb239.2c60724d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00d901c35b20$0149ca00$2c7eadcf@nwlink.com>

CatMtn at aol.com wrote:


> Seems more likely that the [contraceptive implants] had
> to be renewed periodically, and weren't while the women
> were POWs.

That might be a significant factor except for the shortness of
that war. In "Aftermaths", they call it the 120 Day War, except
that it actually only lasted 118 days. Furthermore, when the URs
were delivered, Cordelia notes that the fetuses were from 4
months (just after the start of the war) to 7 weeks old. And the
oldest one was, in fact, Elena Visconti's, which shortens the
period even more. The 16 babies were all conceived in a two month
period or less.

It depends on how long the implants last. If they only last a
year, then it's likely there would have been several expire in
that time. But this is advanced galactic technology, so it's more
likely that they last many years (after all, Norplant lasts some
5 years, I believe) in which case it's very unlikely that out of
a couple hundred or so female prisoners that that many implants
would expire in those two months.

--
Dan Tilque



--------________--------________--------

From dtilque at nwlink.com  Tue Aug  5 08:13:20 2003
From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:13:20 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Heinlein inventions
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030805022820.00a3a190@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <00da01c35b21$0dc57a80$2c7eadcf@nwlink.com>

Marty L. Adkins wrote:

> Jill Wyrtham [she of the worthy discussion] asks:
>
>> (Anyone know of any other RAH inventions that have actually
>> become real?)
>
> In the 1940s he wrote about cooking in microwave ovens and
> sending pictures and text via "facsimulator" machines.

Fax machines were actually a 19th century invention. Microwave
ovens were invented in 1945 although they weren't commercialized
until 1954. Depending on when he wrote about them, he might get
credit for the microwave, but not the fax.

--
Dan Tilque



--------________--------________--------

From tracy.macshane at vuw.ac.nz  Tue Aug  5 08:27:57 2003
From: tracy.macshane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:27:57 +1200
Subject: [LMB] Baba, etc. OT , Queens , NZ navy , male/female
 military
References: <006d01c35b1e$875ef680$687538d4@mikealle>
Message-ID: <000d01c35b23$177c2220$920fc382@staff.vuw.ac.nz>

Mike Allen wrote:

> Even further OT the COED gives crap as Middle English
> deriving from Dutch for rubish . Can anyone give me a
> textref for its use in English before Thos Crapper started
> making sanitary ware (c 1850)
>
The full OED has the earliest reference for crap=sh*t in 1898, although
there are a plenty of earlier references (1400s on) to it being used to
refer to the leavings of various types of food processing, such as husks,
fat rendering residue, beer barm etc. Maybe it was the association of the
existing meanings with the wonderful Crapper device that gave the word its
modern sense at the end of the last century. All the proper authorities seem
to agree that it isn't just an abbreviation of Crapper.



--------________--------________--------

From mikebomb at myrealbox.com  Tue Aug  5 07:56:52 2003
From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 02:56:52 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: My first spam
Message-ID: <001501c35b1e$c447eb60$3201a8c0@mbaxis>

I use this account exclusively for this list and for
communicating with listies. This has resulted in the happy
circumstance of my never receiving any spam in this account...

...until now.

I just received my first spam in this account, and it was a
Nigerian scam letter. These Nigerian scam emails are so
diappointing. I remember the Nigerian scam when it took an
investment of time, money and energy to pull off; when the
scammers sent you snail mail letters on bond paper stationery
that appeared to be from real Nigerian government offices. It is
odd, though, that this is the first Nigerian scam email that I
have received, that I know of.

-- Michael



--------________--------________--------

From gordon at gordonj.net  Tue Aug  5 09:12:31 2003
From: gordon at gordonj.net (Gordon Jackson)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:12:31 +1200
Subject: [LMB] NZ Navy OT:
In-Reply-To: <003f01c35a3e$3ac6dfd0$920fc382@staff.vuw.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <000001c35b29$51dd9a10$6401a8c0@EVO800>

Tracy wrote
>4 frigates to patrol the 16th longest coastline in
>the world, dear o dear.


Actually that's three frigates, two of which are more or less
permanently tied up supporting coalition operations in the Gulf, leaving
the oldest and most decrepit one to do everything else. 



--------________--------________--------

From tinne at eskimo.com  Tue Aug  5 09:27:39 2003
From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 01:27:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [LMB] Baba, etc. OT: (was: Matchmaker names)
In-Reply-To: <200308050308.h7538Hj6012478@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0308050050410.22444-100000@eskimo.com>

Magyar:
apa - father (apu is the familiar form)
anya - mother (anyuka is the familiar form)
Nagyanya - grandmother
several words for grandfather, formal is Nagyapa
Nagyszu:lo"k - grandparents

Baba? That's a doll, but sometimes used for a baby to keep the evil
away from it until it's been baptized/blessed.

There IS a slang usage that has the implication of a procuress of
underage girls for lower echelon Soviet soldiers whose tastes ran that
way, but that was a play on the Russian 'Babuska' with only a
secondary layer of the 'doll' from the Magyar to imply her goods were
too young yet. Not a woman held in high esteem, not even as high as a
nasty back-biting gossip with too much time on her hands and a nose
for trouble, and certainly not a term for a respectable friend of the
family who provides an introduction to a family that leads to a
marriage.

And as for matchmaker? Anyone in the community that takes a mind
to it, but mostly done quietly by the young people themselves,
followed by the young man asking mother and father of the girl for
permission to marry. Some families will use a lawyer to approach the
other fmaily and to draw up marriage contacts, but it's not -quite-
the same thing.

 at }->- :} Tinne ;} Laughter Heals :D -<-{ at 



--------________--------________--------

From bo.h.johansson at lfv.se  Tue Aug  5 10:17:53 2003
From: bo.h.johansson at lfv.se (bo.h.johansson at lfv.se)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:17:53 +0200
Subject: [LMB] Birthday
Message-ID: <B74C26FFD527D3119270009027615574F1F172@gg-exch1.gg.lfv.se>

On Tuesday, August 05, 2003 5:56 AM 
lorraine fletez-brant <mailto:lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> [...] on MY screen it really was an "enya," not a "q."
> Evil, Evil Hotmail! I have NO idea what Hotmail wanted to wish
> you <g>! Frank showed me that "alt 164" gets you the "n" with
> the tilda over it. That was how it showed up. Then, when I
> went to the current archives to read new mail, I saw that it
> had been changed to a "q!" 

The mail list software will only handle strict ASCII, i.e. characters 0-127,
so when you send character 241 (n-tilde) it will be converted to 241-128=113
which is "q".

Why you get n-tilde by both "alt 164" and "alt 0241" I leave as a queston
for those with more knowledge about Windows. (Or is it like that on other
systems, too?)

// Bo Johansson



--------________--------________--------

From iosef at gothic.net.au  Mon Aug  4 05:28:48 2003
From: iosef at gothic.net.au (I)
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 14:28:48 +1000
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dorothy Sayers mysteries
In-Reply-To: <000d01c35a3c$c49f07c0$48eaaad8@tds.net>
References: <BB533255.13BBE%waltpalmer@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20030804142721.00b31670@mail.gothic.net.au>

At 01:59 PM 4/08/2003, D Echelbarger wrote:

>Two of the Carmichaels are also available on DVD.
>The others are, IIRC, only available on VHS.
All five have been available over the last year. A friend of mine has them, 
as does my mother. Released for zone 1.

Iestyn



--------________--------________--------

From aharo at erols.com  Tue Aug  5 11:56:05 2003
From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 06:56:05 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: a-a words
References: <43.207a801e.2c606ce4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F2F8D45.DC96CC29@erols.com>

And Greek: cacaphony means crappy sounds.

CatMtn at aol.com wrote:
> 
> Bo Johansson writes:
> 
> > - kaka (to shit in Swedish)
> 
> Same word with "c" in Spanish.  Same meaning.
> Mary



--------________--------________--------

From aharo at erols.com  Tue Aug  5 12:05:12 2003
From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 07:05:12 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dune again
Message-ID: <3F2F8F68.ABA44913@erols.com>

Just got done reading Brian Herbert's bio of his father. A
rather odd book.

But at any rate, he mentions that:

1) His father had a raft of Catholic aunts

2) His father explicitly told him that the Bene Gesserits
were named after the Jesuits

3) That the "Orange Catholic Bible" was intended to indicate
that there had been a melding of the Protestant and Catholic
(not catholic) Christian traditions

Seems to be fairly conclusive, although some of the
assertions in the book are to be taken with a grain of salt.
For example, I have serious doubts that David Lean ever
heard of _Dune_, much less agreed to direct the movie at one
point.

So, _Dune_ could be interpreted as an anti-Catholic book.



--------________--------________--------

From bujoldjunkie at tds.net  Tue Aug  5 12:50:58 2003
From: bujoldjunkie at tds.net (D Echelbarger)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 06:50:58 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: mad Queens, the NZ navy, and movie recommendations
References: <006d01c35b1e$875ef680$687538d4@mikealle>
Message-ID: <007c01c35b47$d6472be0$71ebaad8@tds.net>

Mike Allen, quoting somebody unattributed, said:
> >Juana, who (like all queens named Joan)
> was mad,
> This reputation attatches to any woman who
attempts
> to actualli rule , instead of leaving it to her
husband etc .

Well, from all I've read, Juana really was insane
by our definition-- probably schizophrenic. She
was paranoid, delusional, and obsessively jealous
of her husband, among other things.

> >4 frigates
> Plus the ceremonial war canoes , with crews in
full
> Maori that should put off most , it would me ;-)

Oh, yeah.

Blatant plug vaguely related to the above comment:
If you haven't already seen it, find out where The
Whale Rider is playing and go see it _now_.  It's
an incredible experience that will enrich your
soul . And no, that's not hyperbole; it really is
that good.

Diane E



--------________--------________--------

From jparish at siue.edu  Tue Aug  5 12:48:38 2003
From: jparish at siue.edu (Jim Parish)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 06:48:38 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dune again
In-Reply-To: <3F2F8F68.ABA44913@erols.com>
Message-ID: <3F2F5346.29261.974EFC@localhost>

Alexandra Haropulos reports that Brian Herbert said:

> 3) That the "Orange Catholic Bible" was intended to indicate
> that there had been a melding of the Protestant and Catholic
> (not catholic) Christian traditions

Hmm. The appendices to _Dune_ indicate a far more sweeping 
melding.

"For almost seven years, then, C.E.T. labored... On that seventh 
anniversary, they unveiled the Orange Catholic Bible."

"Revisions that caterred to popular bigotry began appearing. These 
revisions leaned on accepted symbolisms (Cross, Crescent, Feather 
Rattle, the Twelve Saints, the thin Buddha, and the like) and it soon 
became apparent that the ancient superstitions and beliefs had *not* 
been absorbed by the new ecumenism."

"C.E.T. Chairman Toure Bomoko, a Ulema of the Zensunnis..."

These seem to indicate that Muslim, Buddhist, and Amerind traditions, 
among (probably) others, were also incorporated into the OCB.

Jim Parish



--------________--------________--------

From icewolf010 at earthlink.net  Tue Aug  5 15:45:54 2003
From: icewolf010 at earthlink.net (Icewolf)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:45:54 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: *snrk* *snrk* *snrk*
Message-ID: <009001c35b60$474e07b0$9f1e1f43@Ivanova>

Completely OT:, but I had to share.

<singsong tone>

I just picked an argument over on the Lackey list.
I just picked an argument over on the Lackey list.
I just picked an argument over on the Lackey list.

</singsong tone>

I hope. The last thing resembling a real discussion was a bunch of people
flaming a kid because she dared ask why Lackey doesn't allow RPG's and
fanfic. There's a listee over there who seems to have set herself up as the
ultimate authority and I've just posted an alternative argument.

*snicker*

On a related note, could I just thank all the teenagers on this list for,
well, um, not acting like teenagers? Well, not so much not acting like
teenagers as not propagating negative adolescent stereotypes. Oh, and I'd
like to thank the grown ups for not acting like teenagers, too. The list is
incredible in so many ways, but the way we talk and communicate with each
other continues to boggle my mind.

I'm still on the Lackey list mainly because I've been on it for so long
(1995). *sigh* It used to be more like this list, less a cult of
personality.

-Lyn



--------________--------________--------

From marna at marna.ca  Tue Aug  5 16:01:48 2003
From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:01:48 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Small Sherwood OT:
Message-ID: <3F2FC6DD.25B495CB@marna.ca>

Spider Robinson: well, yeah. I'll still read him, but to be honest,
that's often because he's a fast read to start with, so really, what
harm? 

OTOH, I'm beginning to like him more and more as a Globe columnist.  

I realize that suggesting to a fiction writer that maybe they ought to
switch to non-fiction for awhile pretty much never goes over well. As
a non-fiction wirter with no wish to write fiction, I regret this. 

Nevertheless,  I wish he'd drop the books for a bit and work on the
column as a more regular thing for a few years. 

Gender and bullies: Girls do things to boys; I'm not sure it can be
called "bullying" without distorting the meaning out of all
recognition -- some level of actual THREAT is part of the definition
-- though.  

Teasing, certainly -- both funny and decidedly NOT funny teasing. 
Mockery, yeah. 

FWIW, my impression as a victim of bullying is that on the whole, boys
do not, per se, "bully girls" physically, nor girls, boys.  

Children will bully *other children*, operating without regard to
gender, but once gender becomes an issue, once they start to identify
themselves as male and female, the targets for coercion become
same-gender and the cross-gender hostilities become a whole 'nother ,
much more ... subterranean ... thing.  And while the hostilities might
in that case be cross-gender, I've noticed that both the male and the
female kids generally agree on who, exactly, is where on the pecking
order. 

Ian and I both had the experience in high school of ganging together
with other 'common targets' to cope with the bullies. It worked rather
well, really, even though or maybe especially because my high school
was in a town so small that we had an interschool league of "weirdos
against bullies". 

I agree, btw, that while there is a time and a place for "I don't care
who started it" -- not "you're both in trouble", but rather "this is
not a dispute so large or awful that that it requires adult
intervention, I have faith you can sort it out" --  violent disputes
are not that place.  An adult is require to cope with the violence.
The actual dispute can still be left with the kids. 

I rather hope my kid will not be bullied, but if they are I will
probably try to be supportive, offer resources, encourage them to
handle it themselves as far as they are able -- form alliances, deal
with the school authorities and cetera -- and try to restrain myself
to directly intervening ONLY in the stuff said kid can't cope with
alone.  Like violence. Or trouble from the authorities. 

And I will probably encourage them to approach things from a
perspective of 'bullying is not okay' and form alliances with other
bullied kids, rather than concentrate entirely on their own situation.
 Firstly because as various posters have mentioned, focussing mostly
on the bullied kid puts the blame on the bullied kid (why are YOU,
especially, so unpopular, rather than "why on EARTH do these people
think this is an okay way to act?) and secondly because it just plain
works better IME.   

Marna.



--------________--------________--------

From kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net  Tue Aug  5 16:08:41 2003
From: kappainfometrics5 at comcast.net (Jill Wyrtham)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:08:41 -0600
Subject: [LMB] OT: Heinlein inventions (was Re: OT: Packs
References: <a6.3b2950c5.2c60757b@aol.com>
 <004d01c35afd$60cd5140$9e19fea9@attbi.com>
 <00ca01c35b19$efa9d2a0$2c7eadcf@nwlink.com>
Message-ID: <004101c35b63$75674d20$9e19fea9@attbi.com>

>
> What story was this in? I don't recall this from any of his early
> stories.

Revolt in 2100, the ending of his 'US becomes tyrranical theocracy'
theme.They were motorized.

Jill

***Sig Error 407 -- The Dog Ate My Sig***



--------________--------________--------

From YankelAdler8092 at aol.com  Tue Aug  5 16:35:30 2003
From: YankelAdler8092 at aol.com (YankelAdler8092 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:35:30 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 babies
Message-ID: <150.225c7eee.2c6128c2@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/5/2003 3:09:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
dtilque at nwlink.com writes:

> . But this is advanced galactic technology, so it's more
> likely that they last many years (after all, Norplant lasts some
> 5 years, I believe) in which case it's very unlikely that out of
> a couple hundred or so female prisoners that that many implants
> would expire in those two months.
> 

Advanced tech it may be, but likely still comes with a small warning "May not 
work as well with ZYX antibiotics.  Otherwise, 99.99% foolproof."

If there are 1,000 female soldiers, 10 might 'slip'.  So, sixteen isn't that 
far off, especially if some, copying Serg, removed the implant.

Ziviya



--------________--------________--------

From marna at marna.ca  Tue Aug  5 16:45:12 2003
From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:45:12 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 babies
References: <150.225c7eee.2c6128c2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F2FD108.56D3F83A@marna.ca>

YankelAdler8092 at aol.com wrote:
 
> Advanced tech it may be, but likely still comes with a small warning "May not
> work as well with ZYX antibiotics.  Otherwise, 99.99% foolproof."
> 
> If there are 1,000 female soldiers, 10 might 'slip'.  So, sixteen isn't that
> far off, especially if some, copying Serg, removed the implant.

Also, out of 1000, sixteen might never have been interested in sex
with men, or simply have been celibate. In which case, unless implants
were *utterly* mandatory, they would not have them. 

Marna.



--------________--------________--------

From nrappin at sockeye.com  Tue Aug  5 16:45:50 2003
From: nrappin at sockeye.com (Noel Rappin)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:45:50 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT:  Was Hugo nominees, now Michael Flynn too
In-Reply-To: <000001c35ae6$f2ee0950$6b01a8c0@D6FL1B21>
References: <000001c35ae6$f2ee0950$6b01a8c0@D6FL1B21>
Message-ID: <3F2FD12E.4000406@sockeye.com>

Robert Warnicke wrote (we're talking about _The Wreck of the River of 
Stars_ by Michael Flynn):

>What's the "Wreck" book about?
>
The title refers to the greatest ship from the "age of sail" -- in this 
case spaceships and magnetic sails.  The age of sail having long ended, 
the ship has been retrofitted with new engines and is now a mere 
freighter with a somewhat motley crew.   The book is about the crew's 
efforts to deal with engine failure, and is largely about how the 
characters react to the accident and to each other (Flynn describes 
character reactions using an omnipotent narrator with the same precision 
he brings to the description of the engines, and I mean that as a 
compliment).  A couple of others on the list have recommended it, as 
well, I think.

>BTW the "Years of: book by Robinson; I hope it get more interesting
>soon.  So far its been mostly forgettable, and I must be almost a 100
>pages in...
>
I haven't finished it, so I can't say...

Noel

By the way, there's an interesting quirk to the characters of _River of 
Stars_ that I'm kind of kicking myself for not figuring out on my own.  
It's not really a plot spoiler, but I think some people will want to 
figure it out for themselves so I'll give it some space.

Spoiler
space
for
The
Wreck
of
The
River
of
Stars

Spoiler
space
for
The
Wreck
of
The
River
of
Stars

Spoiler
space
for
The
Wreck
of
The
River
of
Stars

That should be enough:

The sixteen characters in the book each correspond to a separate 
Meyers-Briggs personality type.   Which explains why they can't get 
along.  Honestly, I should have figured that out...

Noel



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Tue Aug  5 16:52:13 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:52:13 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Bullies
Message-ID: <10.33df34df.2c612cad@aol.com>

Jerrie writes:

> Lots of gals on the list are telling how they stood up to male bullies in 
> school. 
One of my favorite high-school post-fighting episodes of standing up to a 
bully had to do with a thief--one of the boys who had been bullying me since 
third grade.  I would bring something from home to have at break, and when one of 
our teachers would send me to the board for some sort of demonstration, he 
would steal it.  So--we had a hedge of chilpitins (also called chile tipins, one 
of the world's hottest peppers, and very small, about the size of a pea).  I 
inserted one in a snack, and came back from the board that day to find said 
bully with tears rolling down his cheeks and smoke coming out of his ears.  The 
lovely part was that he couldn't complain without admitting he'd been stealing 
my stuff.

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Tue Aug  5 17:02:39 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:02:39 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Heinlein
Message-ID: <14f.2232306a.2c612f1f@aol.com>

Dan tilque writes:

> Fax machines were actually a 19th century invention. Microwave
> ovens were invented in 1945 although they weren't commercialized
> until 1954. Depending on when he wrote about them, he might get
> credit for the microwave, but not the fax.
> 
I remember a high school demonstration of a microwave in around 1951 or 1952 
(can't have been as late as 1954 unless they were demonstrating it 
pre-release.  I only took one Home ec class in high school, my freshman year, and I 
graduated in '54).  It was called a "Radar Range," and it had the microwave built 
into a regular oven and not as a separate appliance.  Did Heinlein perhaps coin 
the name?

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From tiamat at tsoft.com  Tue Aug  5 17:05:27 2003
From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:05:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dune again
In-Reply-To: <3F2F5346.29261.974EFC@localhost>
References: <3F2F5346.29261.974EFC@localhost>
Message-ID: <20030805085838.E1718@shell.rawbw.com>

On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Jim Parish wrote:

> Alexandra Haropulos reports that Brian Herbert said:
>
> > 3) That the "Orange Catholic Bible" was intended to indicate
> > that there had been a melding of the Protestant and Catholic
> > (not catholic) Christian traditions
>
> Hmm. The appendices to _Dune_ indicate a far more sweeping
> melding.

And I'd go with them.  I mean, have you seen what Brian Herbert
let K*v*n *nd*rs*n DO to _Dune_?

The prequels are atrocious, simplifying everything that made the
universe great and reducing grand and complex motives to the very
basic.  Not to mention the way the Harkonnen one (the last one I
read) exploited every opportunity to portray nonconsensual s*x
in all the bitter, gory, unpleasant detail that Herbert Sr.
occasionally hinted at but had the good grace to make
horrifically vague rather than nauseatingly exact.  (Reading the
old Marquis, which I'd hoped would be exciting, was equally
dreadfully boring, and for the same reason; turgid philosophy and
lifeless pr0n written to go for the squick factor.

~malfoy (no smiley; not for this!)
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann



--------________--------________--------

From tiamat at tsoft.com  Tue Aug  5 17:11:32 2003
From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:11:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [LMB] OT: *snrk* *snrk* *snrk*
In-Reply-To: <009001c35b60$474e07b0$9f1e1f43@Ivanova>
References: <009001c35b60$474e07b0$9f1e1f43@Ivanova>
Message-ID: <20030805090804.V1718@shell.rawbw.com>

On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Icewolf wrote:

> Completely OT:, but I had to share.
>
> <singsong tone>
>
> I just picked an argument over on the Lackey list.

This sounds rather like shooting fish in a barrel, so I'm not
sure where all the glee comes from!

I know that I have been very impressed both on this list and my
Slytherin lists because I can't tell who the teenagers ARE until
they identify themselves.

(This led to a bit of embarrassment when I realized my co-writer
on a piece of NC17 slash was actually 15, but never mind that!)

Both environments are very unlike the 'mainstream' Potterlists
and other SF/fantasy lists I'm on.

~malfoy :)
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann



--------________--------________--------

From jparish at siue.edu  Tue Aug  5 17:14:46 2003
From: jparish at siue.edu (Jim Parish)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:14:46 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Birthday, again
Message-ID: <3F2F91A6.24875.18AF763@localhost>

<The stage is as before. The robed figure staggers back 
onstage, 
clutching a telegram; his robes are in disarray and there is a 
prominent 
scratch on the back of one hand. He stands at the lectern, 
breathing 
heavily for a few moments. Then he reads from the 
telegram.>

This just in. Today is also the forty-seventh birthday of Ree 
Moorhead 
Pruehs. <He glares sternly at the audience.> Ree, you have 
not turned 
in any assignments yet this year. <He shakes his head.> 
Sorry, I got 
confused there for a moment. Happy birthday, Ree; may you 
find time 
to do more than lurk, sometime in the not-too-distant future!

<The robed figure stumbles back offstage.>



--------________--------________--------

From jparish at siue.edu  Tue Aug  5 17:14:46 2003
From: jparish at siue.edu (Jim Parish)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:14:46 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Birthday
Message-ID: <3F2F91A6.4430.18AF6C7@localhost>

<At center stage stands a sturdy metal table, with a wooden 
lectern 
on top. There is a small sheaf of papers on the table, and a 
little pile 
of Tixie Dust. The robed figure bursts onto the stage at a dead 
run, 
races to the lectern, then has to pause and wheeze a bit 
before 
beginning to speak.>

Ahem. As you will recall from the syllabus, late assignments 
are 
completely unacceptable. For this reason, I must express keen 
gratitude to Kay Carrasco, for reminding me that today is the 
thirty-
ninth birthday of Elly Jeurissen, who very nearly was forgotten 
by 
Tixies Inc. for the second consecutive year.

<He waves to someone offstage, and a pair of stagehands 
come in, 
each carrying a birthday cake: one with 38 candles, and one 
with 39. 
They place the cakes on the table, one on either side of the 
lectern.>

Elly, as a measure of our profound regret for last year's 
mishap and 
this year's near-repetition, allow me to present you with this 
gift 
certificate <holds up one of the papers>, which provides free 
access 
to the digitized contents of the library at Unseen University. 
All will be 
downloadable to your Palm. You need only apply to the 
Librarian to 
obtain your password. In the event that a bribe is necessary, 
be 
advised that both cakes are made of banana bread. <A 
doorbell rings, 
and furious barking erupts offstage.> Oh dear...

<He rushes off again.>



--------________--------________--------

From jparish at siue.edu  Tue Aug  5 17:20:12 2003
From: jparish at siue.edu (Jim Parish)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:20:12 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Formatting
Message-ID: <3F2F92EC.10234.18FED59@localhost>

My apologies for the poor formatting on today's birthday posts. My ISP 
apparently decided that I was relaying spam, and it took several tries, 
involving repeated cut-and-paste episodes, before they got through. 
The formatting was an artifact of the cut-and-paste. Sorry, sorry.

Jim Parish



--------________--------________--------

From Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com  Tue Aug  5 17:23:30 2003
From: Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com (Tom Vinson)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:23:30 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Bujold moment or aging eyes?
Message-ID: <E00A5AFD6EB5D611834200105A994B3D0F075B@Exchmail>

Jerrie Atkins posted:
> Heather Alexander has accepted an invitation to be Music 
> Guest of Honor...

Did anyone else misread this as "Helen Alexander" and think at
first that Jerrie had gotten the children's names mixed up?

Tom



--------________--------________--------

From mitchmiller at entertainmenttax.com  Tue Aug  5 18:31:50 2003
From: mitchmiller at entertainmenttax.com (Mitch Miller)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:31:50 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT:Infantryman's load
Message-ID: <A752B46B661B7C4FAEE8B736DF87F4A4270F7D@BRINET.bricare.com>

As Bill Mauldin's Willie once said to Joe (or was it the other way around):(paraphrasing)  "You're carrying too much weight around.  Throw the joker out of your extra deck of cards."

Mitch Miller


<snip>
>it's not at all clear to me why, in this day of lighter weapons,
ammunition, equipment, clothing, etc., that an infantryman
has to be able to hump 100 pounds of gear
Basically because they can . Contingency planning will give
every soldier the maximum possible resources immediately
available ie on their back .

Mike Allen
<snip>



--------________--------________--------

From pgranzeau at cox.net  Tue Aug  5 18:04:46 2003
From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 12:04:46 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Baba, etc. OT , Queens , NZ navy , male/female
 military
In-Reply-To: <006d01c35b1e$875ef680$687538d4@mikealle>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030805120022.01dc4ab0@pop.east.cox.net>

At 01:26 08/05/2003, Mike Allen wrote:
> >It seems to be one of those a-a words that are easy
> >for babies to say.
>This may give the words a very long life , so that they
>carry through into linguistic groups . Mama & papa
>virtually define the Indo-European languages .
>Incidentally , caco is the Lain for the Swedish kaka ,
>and cack is used in English (although the Concise OED
>onlly gives cack-handed = left-handed) .
>Even further OT the COED gives crap as Middle English
>deriving from Dutch for rubish . Can anyone give me a
>textref for its use in English before Thos Crapper started
>making sanitary ware (c 1850)

It just struck me:  English "Poppycock" is from the Dutch _pappekak_, 
meaning "soft manure" (according to my dictionary),

In Patrick O'Brian's _Master and Commander_, a Spanish warship named 
Cacafuego figures prominently; I think the name is Bowlderized in English 
to "Spitfire", but it's pretty easy to tell whence comes the name.


Regards, Pete
pgranzeau at cox.net 



--------________--------________--------

From pgranzeau at cox.net  Tue Aug  5 18:17:19 2003
From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 12:17:19 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Birthday
In-Reply-To: <Law11-F103ebm4M2S0g0002aa51@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030805120808.01dc7050@pop.east.cox.net>

At 22:56 08/04/2003, lorraine fletez-brant wrote:

>>Feliz cumpleaqos!<
>
>Well, Paula, on MY screen it really was an "enya," not a "q." Evil, Evil 
>Hotmail! I have NO idea what Hotmail wanted to wish you <g>! Frank showed 
>me that "alt 164" gets you the "n" with the tilda over it. That was how it 
>showed up. Then, when I went to the current archives to read new mail, I 
>saw that it had been changed to a "q!"

It's probably the List server; they tend to speak in 7-bit ASCII 
only.  Actually, enya is Alt-0241 according to my chart, subtracting 128 
from that gives 113, which is q.

-- 
Regards, Pete
pgranzeau at cox.net 



--------________--------________--------

From pgranzeau at cox.net  Tue Aug  5 18:27:10 2003
From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 12:27:10 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Heinlein inventions (was Re: OT: Packs
In-Reply-To: <00ca01c35b19$efa9d2a0$2c7eadcf@nwlink.com>
References: <a6.3b2950c5.2c60757b@aol.com>
 <004d01c35afd$60cd5140$9e19fea9@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030805122335.01dc8d50@pop.east.cox.net>

At 01:22 08/05/2003, Dan Tilque wrote:
>Jill Wyrtham wrote:
>
> >
> > Does anyone remember that Heinlein wrote about "booster guns"
> > (multiple barrel long-range cannon) long before they were
> > developed in WW2?
>
>What story was this in? I don't recall this from any of his early
>stories.

The Krupp "Paris gun" used by the Germans in World War I to shell Paris 
from 90 miles away was also a multiple barrel long-range cannon.  It 
consisted of two 6" naval rifle barrels, end to end, supported by an 
external framework, and at a permanent elevation of 50 degrees.  The range 
was modified by changing the amount of powder used for each shot.

-- 
Regards, Pete
pgranzeau at cox.net 



--------________--------________--------

From paal at gis.net  Tue Aug  5 18:57:47 2003
From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:57:47 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Heinlein
References: <14f.2232306a.2c612f1f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <019901c35b7b$158245f0$0100a8c0@LAPTOP>

-- Paula Lieberman

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <CatMtn at aol.com>


> Dan tilque writes:
>
> > Fax machines were actually a 19th century invention. Microwave
> > ovens were invented in 1945 although they weren't commercialized
> > until 1954. Depending on when he wrote about them, he might get
> > credit for the microwave, but not the fax.
> >
> I remember a high school demonstration of a microwave in around 1951 or
1952
> (can't have been as late as 1954 unless they were demonstrating it
> pre-release.  I only took one Home ec class in high school, my freshman
year, and I
> graduated in '54).  It was called a "Radar Range," and it had the
microwave built
> into a regular oven and not as a separate appliance.  Did Heinlein perhaps
coin
> the name?

No.  The microwave oven came about when a Raytheon engineer named Percy who
ate Hershey  bars, and had one in his shirt pocket as usual, was working
with a leaky radar tube. The Hershey bar melted in his pocket, he came up
with the idea of a microwave oven "and thus was born Amana." It was  called
a Radarange because ovens are the time were called "ranges" and having one
that cooked by radar, would be a "Radarange."   I was told the story by
people who had known him.

That's an offshoot along the way to modern computer systems....  microwave
technology and radar development in the US were spearheaded at MIT, and Ken
Olsen, who founded Digital Equipment Corporation, had been an MIT  Lincoln
Lab (originally MIT Radiation Laboratory before it moved out to Lincoln, MA)
type who worked with computers and microwave stuff there.



--------________--------________--------

From aharo at erols.com  Tue Aug  5 19:04:01 2003
From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:04:01 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dune again
References: <3F2F5346.29261.974EFC@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F2FF191.142746E8@erols.com>

Jim Parish wrote:

> Hmm. The appendices to _Dune_ indicate a far more sweeping
> melding.
>

I agree. For example, the "Zensunni" concepts.

My posting was intended to address the ;istee comment that
the Encyclopedia was non-canonical. As best I can tell, what
Brian Herbert says his father told him (and they talked
exhaustively about the subject) should be regarded as an
acceptable authority.



--------________--------________--------

From bujoldjunkie at tds.net  Tue Aug  5 19:18:07 2003
From: bujoldjunkie at tds.net (D Echelbarger)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:18:07 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Heinlein
Message-ID: <200308051818.h75II7OW029500@im1.mail.tds.net>

Paula said:
> he came up with the idea of
> a microwave oven "and thus
> was born Amana." 

This may very well be the story of the invention of the microwave oven, but the Amana appliance corporation was, according to their website, "founded in 1934", when a clever craftsman invented the first refrigerator.  And the Amana Colonies, the still-extant utopian community for which the company was named, is decades older than that.

Diane E



--------________--------________--------

From dwl at panix.com  Tue Aug  5 19:18:54 2003
From: dwl at panix.com (David W. Levine)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:18:54 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT:Infantryman's load
In-Reply-To: <A752B46B661B7C4FAEE8B736DF87F4A4270F7D@BRINET.bricare.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030805134823.02adfdf0@mail.panix.com>

At 10:31 AM 8/5/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>As Bill Mauldin's Willie once said to Joe (or was it the other way 
>around):(paraphrasing)  "You're carrying too much weight around.  Throw 
>the joker out of your extra deck of cards."
>
>Mitch Miller
>
>
><snip>
> >it's not at all clear to me why, in this day of lighter weapons,
>ammunition, equipment, clothing, etc., that an infantryman
>has to be able to hump 100 pounds of gear
>Basically because they can . Contingency planning will give
>every soldier the maximum possible resources immediately
>available ie on their back .
>
>Mike Allen
><snip>

And because of the demon Murphy. Every pound of stuff you can
lug along reduces your short term dependency on the logistical
tail of your unit. When the supply lines are running along fine,
they can happily deliver your daily ration of food, your daily supply
of ammunition, and so on.

But.. When the fecal matter impacts the rotary air distributor,
one of the first things that gets broken is the logistics tail.
The poor foot slogger up at the pointy end of the spear
suddenly has to fall back onto the stuff that's in their possession.
That's the ammunition they are carrying, the c-rations they've
stuffed in their rucksack, and so on down the line.

The grunts, for better or worse, have to hump this stuff on
their own. Oh, sure, a modern division has plenty of organic
transport these days, but, once the time comes to occupy a
position, or seize an objective, the poor footsloggers are on
foot, with whatever they are carrying.

If things go well, a truck will be along shortly to provide a resupply.
But.. When things don't go well, those grunts are
sitting in a foxhole with what they lugged in on their backs, and
every shell, every bit of food, every entrenching tool is going to
help them deal with things until that truck shows up. The longer
they can cope, the more things they can do, the more effective
the unit is.

- David



--------________--------________--------

From Robert at WarnickeLittler.com  Tue Aug  5 19:44:04 2003
From: Robert at WarnickeLittler.com (Robert Warnicke)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:44:04 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT:  Was Miniloiscon now mostly bird brains
In-Reply-To: <200308050657.h756vAj6013681@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000001c35b81$8c43d3b0$6b01a8c0@D6FL1B21>

Lorraine wrote:
 
> Oh, sure, NOW you tell me...<g> After you wrote about it last week, I
went
> out and purchased it over the weekend! 

Well, turns out my memory isn't so good, I'm only 50 pages in, and one
of the characters is becoming interesting.  So maybe it will be ok.


> (from one bird brain to another - newer listees may
> not know that I consider that to be the *highest* compliment <g>).

Yeah maybe, but I know those are pigeon brains you are talking about,
not the smartest birds,  "Oh look, three twigs together, that's a nest!"
Has anyone actually seen a pigeon perch in a tree like a normal bird?  I
thought not.  I had to rescue a baby pigeon from Murder Row (area
between my garage and neighbors house, baby pigeons fall out of
aforementioned "nests" and numerous feral cats work on their shredding
skills) last week.  I took him to Jody (Fallen Feathers).  Your house
would have been closer, but I don't know how to reach you on the
weekends.
 
> > up. Another case of detritus in the Phoenix roadway...Rob, you're
probably
> also used to ducking boxes, shoes, beds, etc., casually strewn in the
> freeway or streets...ah, Phoenix driving <g>

Well its only a mile from home to work so I don't have too much trouble
on the streets... but at my rental house, the tenant I do know about
tells me that last night a tenant I didn't know about decided to take up
residence on top of my garage.  I guess he is a pigeon brain, I never
would have picked it for a "nest".  Downtown is so much fun.  I wonder
if Home Depo sells razor wire...  Sigh.

--------
Robert W
 



--------________--------________--------

From d_reykova at juno.com  Tue Aug  5 19:58:50 2003
From: d_reykova at juno.com (Danielle N. Hart)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:58:50 GMT
Subject: [LMB] OT: mad Queens
Message-ID: <20030805.145914.15706.372952@webmail12.nyc.untd.com>

>>Well, from all I've read, Juana really was insane by our definition-- probably schizophrenic. She was paranoid, delusional, and obsessively jealous of her husband, among other things.>>

 That's putting it mildly, since she had to be persuaded to let them bury the king.  However, ISTR her husband was one of the kings with whom one had a reason for being obssessively jealous.

 In Alison Weir's The Six Wives of Henry VIII (excellent book), she describes Juana as "mentally unstable", and "sunk in depression", gives the above story about Phillip's burial problems.  However, one cannot help but notice that Ferdinand was not the most concerned father (by modern standards, at least - he certainly wasn't much help to Catherine of Aragon) and that by locking Juana up in Tordesillas, he did get Castile back under his control.

 Danielle



________________________________________________________________
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Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!



--------________--------________--------

From jparish at siue.edu  Tue Aug  5 20:00:35 2003
From: jparish at siue.edu (Jim Parish)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:00:35 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT:  Was Miniloiscon now mostly bird brains
In-Reply-To: <000001c35b81$8c43d3b0$6b01a8c0@D6FL1B21>
References: <200308050657.h756vAj6013681@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3F2FB883.20638.222C66D@localhost>

Robert Warnicke wrote:

> Yeah maybe, but I know those are pigeon brains you are talking about,
> not the smartest birds,  "Oh look, three twigs together, that's a
> nest!" Has anyone actually seen a pigeon perch in a tree like a normal
> bird?

<pedant>
Pigeons aren't tree dwellers. They're cliff dwellers. (And they just *love* 
those artificial cliffs we've been putting up for the last century or so.)

Also, they don't perch at all. Perching is peculiar to one particular (if 
extremely diverse) order, Passeriformes; it requires a special 
arrangement of tendons in the foot, allowing the bird to clamp onto a 
limb even while asleep. Many birds - gulls, penguins, ostriches, 
cormorants, you name it - can't do it.
</pedant>

Not that I'm fond of skyrats myself, but there's plenty to object to there 
without resorting to libel.

Jim Parish



--------________--------________--------

From d_reykova at juno.com  Tue Aug  5 20:10:02 2003
From: d_reykova at juno.com (Danielle N. Hart)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:10:02 GMT
Subject: [LMB] Soldier's Loads and Brian Update OT:
Message-ID: <20030805.151033.15706.373014@webmail12.nyc.untd.com>

 We'll carry everything we can...because tis better to have and not need than need and not have.  Cavalry soldiers tend to be worse because we have vehicles to throw the stuff in. (Death Before Dismount)  :)  Too, you have to remember that very few people will take *only* what is on the list, due to :

 a) women, in general, will bring more changes of socks/shirts/undergarments because having clean underthings on really helps when you haven't had the opportunity to shower and/or are wearing a uniform you've been wearing for awhile.

 b) a book, a deck of cards, a pad of paper - I think somewhere in the LMB books there's a comment about long periods of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer panic, and it's very true.

 c)"Snacks would be a good idea, just in case - and I didn't finish my crackers from that delicious MRE!"

 Things appear to be going fairly well for Brian, who along with topic of the post, has been carrying a copy of Cordelia's Honor with him in the field.  He's not losing any more weight, at least, which is good.  And now that we know they're coming home in the spring, we can stop playing the "maybe" game.

 Danielle
 

________________________________________________________________
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--------________--------________--------

From sraun at fireopal.org  Tue Aug  5 20:30:01 2003
From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:30:01 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Packs
In-Reply-To: <004d01c35afd$60cd5140$9e19fea9@attbi.com>
References: <a6.3b2950c5.2c60757b@aol.com>
 <004d01c35afd$60cd5140$9e19fea9@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20030805193001.GF19472@fireopal.org>

On Mon, Aug 04, 2003 at 08:57:58PM -0600, Jill Wyrtham wrote:
> (Anyone know of any other RAH inventions
> that have actually become real?)

Water beds.

_Stranger in a Strange Land_ was reputedly used as prior art when
someone was defending themselves against a patent infringement case.
IIRC, Heinlein got a free waterbed from the defending side after they
won the case.

-- 
Scott Raun
sraun at fireopal.org



--------________--------________--------

From dtilque at nwlink.com  Tue Aug  5 20:33:25 2003
From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:33:25 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dune again
References: <3F2F5346.29261.974EFC@localhost>
 <3F2FF191.142746E8@erols.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c35b88$71523a40$5aa4adcf@nwlink.com>

Alexandra Haropulos wrote:

>
> My posting was intended to address the ;istee comment that
> the Encyclopedia was non-canonical. As best I can tell, what
> Brian Herbert says his father told him (and they talked
> exhaustively about the subject) should be regarded as an
> acceptable authority.

The Encyclopedia was not done by Brian, but rather a friend of
Frank's whose name I can't remember off-hand. And my
understanding is that Frank read the Encyclopedia and largely
approved of it, although didn't go so far as to declare it
canonical. However, since he let it get published, that was
probably an indirect way of saying it is canonical.

--
Dan Tilque



--------________--------________--------

From jparish at siue.edu  Tue Aug  5 20:39:10 2003
From: jparish at siue.edu (Jim Parish)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:39:10 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT:  Was Miniloiscon now mostly bird brains
In-Reply-To: <3F2FB883.20638.222C66D@localhost>
References: <000001c35b81$8c43d3b0$6b01a8c0@D6FL1B21>
Message-ID: <3F2FC18E.16480.24616D4@localhost>

I wrote:

> Perching is peculiar to one particular (if extremely diverse) order,
> Passeriformes; it requires a special arrangement of tendons in the
> foot, allowing the bird to clamp onto a limb even while asleep. Many
> birds - gulls, penguins, ostriches, cormorants, you name it - can't do
> it.

I think I spoke too soon; further checking indicates that there are non-
passerines which are able to perch. I stand by the rest of it, though.

Jim Parish



--------________--------________--------

From countryboy66 at mchsi.com  Tue Aug  5 20:56:10 2003
From: countryboy66 at mchsi.com (Countryboy)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:56:10 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dune again
References: <3F2F5346.29261.974EFC@localhost>
 <3F2FF191.142746E8@erols.com>
 <001d01c35b88$71523a40$5aa4adcf@nwlink.com>
Message-ID: <00ad01c35b8b$9de66650$6401a8c0@MainComputer>

Dan Tilque said:
> The Encyclopedia was not done by Brian, but rather a friend of
> Frank's whose name I can't remember off-hand. And my
> understanding is that Frank read the Encyclopedia and largely
> approved of it, although didn't go so far as to declare it
> canonical. However, since he let it get published, that was
> probably an indirect way of saying it is canonical.

My copy says compiled by Dr. Willis E. McNelly.  I was given this by my
brother for my birthday after I had read the Dune series and mentioned that
some parts of it I had trouble understanding.  The encyclopedia didn't
actually clear anything up but it was interesting reading.

Countryboy (Allen) - able to find books now that the furniture rearrangement
is complete.



--------________--------________--------

From dtilque at nwlink.com  Tue Aug  5 21:11:52 2003
From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:11:52 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Re: 16 babies
References: <150.225c7eee.2c6128c2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c35b8d$dbc764e0$5aa4adcf@nwlink.com>

YankelAdler8092 at aol.com wrote:

> dtilque at nwlink.com writes:
>
>>  But this is advanced galactic technology, so it's more
>> likely that they last many years (after all, Norplant lasts
>> some 5 years, I believe) in which case it's very unlikely
>> that out of a couple hundred or so female prisoners that that
>> many implants would expire in those two months.
>
> If there are 1,000 female soldiers, 10 might 'slip'.  So,
> sixteen isn't that far off, especially if some, copying Serg,
> removed the implant.

But there weren't 1000 female prisoners; there were about 1000
prisoners total. And while we never get a breakdown on the
male:female ratio of that thousand, the impression I got was that
the overwhelming majority were male. (This impression mainly
comes from the fact that the shelter Cordelia was put in had only
11 residents although it was built for 50. And also the fact from
somewhere else that most military personnel are male. But I
forget where that was and whether it was refering to the Dendarii
or Betan forces.) I figure that at most a couple hundred were
women.

And the idea that the implants were deliberately removed by
either the camp staff or the rapists is what I'm arguing for, as
opposed to the implants expiring on their own.


Marna writes:
> Also, out of 1000, sixteen might never have been interested
> in sex with men, or simply have been celibate. In which case,
> unless implants were *utterly* mandatory, they would not have
> them.

This idea I can't refute, as these were primarily Escobarans
rather than Betans. With Betans, the implants are mandatory, but
probably not for the Escobarans.

--
Dan Tilque



--------________--------________--------

From carbonelle at juno.com  Tue Aug  5 21:15:01 2003
From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:15:01 GMT
Subject: [LMB] Re: Biology & sexuality OT:
Message-ID: <20030805.131540.13674.225607@webmail12.lax.untd.com>

Sara notes:
"I don't think women freezing up and not defending themselves is a chosen reaction at all, even on a subconscious level, and I don't think it's a biologically motivated one.   I think it's a socially conditioned reaction"

We're still talking past one another, it seems, because I agree
with you :-). Where we disagree is the reason for the socially
conditioned reactions - and just what that reaction is: I.e. Good 
Girls don't Hurt People. There's a corollary I ran into briefly,
but which I've seen more of recently; "Good People don't Hurt 
Anyone", and about wh. I'm ambivalent. [*]

And for that, we may just have to agree to disagree (I'm too
allergic to phrases like "gender politics" to be stricly fair). 
But perhaps some of the difference in what we appear to be 
observing among young teens flush with the personal discovery 
of sex is regional?

We also agree about how interwoven biological drives are with
social rules and cultural habits--but disagree that the two
are essentially unknowable. You'll never get me to sign onto
anything like that. 

Kirsten Edwards

[*] Aside from being somewhat counterfactual (not necc. a terrible
thing in itself), such a sex-neutral rule should be a Good Thing. 
I.e. if it's wrong for me to pound John Doe into the pavement for 
slugging a smaller kid, it's just as wrong for him to have done the
original slugging. We should both be punished and taught to be more 
civilized (wh. is what actually happened, IIRC). But where I run 
into it now, it's tied up with the denial and attempted eradication 
of male aggression, rather the the acknowledgement and redirection 
of same. That... doesn't please me.

I *don't* see my natural agressiveness as a flaw, btw, wh. is
what makes me sympathetic to some of the anti-feminist men. It's
how that aggression in used and disciplined that distinguishes
virtue from error.

Or to quote Sara Crew: "There is nothing so strong as anger--
except that which holds it in."


________________________________________________________________
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--------________--------________--------

From carbonelle at juno.com  Tue Aug  5 21:35:10 2003
From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:35:10 GMT
Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2707 - 25 msgs
Message-ID: <20030805.133527.13674.225794@webmail12.lax.untd.com>

I wrote that girls resist beating guys (as opposed to merely 
beating them up) because it interferes with the sexual dance 
that preoccupies them. 

But Marna notes: "I have to say this strikes me as interesting  
but improbable."

You do? You haven't seen the girls pore over the issues of 
"Seventeen" and "YM", or read the letters column in wh. they're
avidly trying to figure out How To Get That Guy to Like Me?
That they aren't modifying how they talk and dress and act
to catch and keep That Boy's attention?

You haven't observed how much *harder* the girls work
at this than the boys? (IMHO, a pity, as it's the boys who usu.
need to work on "learn how to get someone to *like* me, as 
opposed to "learn how to get someone to f--k me")

And you don't think this would have much (if any) influence
on their competitive behaviour w/those same boys?

The socio-biology comes in with the hard-wiring to get
involved in whatever sexual dance is available (though
in a fraction of the cases the object will be non-standard).
That's a v. powerful motivator. The dance itself varies 
(somewhat) with culture, wh. as I observed earlier, does seem
to send the girls a mixed message.

Kirsten Edwards
N.B. Aside to Paula--the culture (not a common one by
any means) in wh. the men prettify themselves for the ladies
is an African one in wh., also wildly uncommon, the ladies
are bigger than the men. Interesting, no?

________________________________________________________________
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--------________--------________--------

From dtilque at nwlink.com  Tue Aug  5 21:38:28 2003
From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:38:28 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Heinlein inventions
References: <a6.3b2950c5.2c60757b@aol.com>
 <004d01c35afd$60cd5140$9e19fea9@attbi.com>
 <20030805193001.GF19472@fireopal.org>
Message-ID: <006501c35b91$878f3200$5aa4adcf@nwlink.com>

Scott Raun wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 04, 2003 at 08:57:58PM -0600, Jill Wyrtham wrote:
>> (Anyone know of any other RAH inventions
>> that have actually become real?)
>
> Water beds.

Not! Didn't we just discuss this a couple months ago, or was that
in rasfw? Anyway, water beds date back to the 19th century.

>
> _Stranger in a Strange Land_ was reputedly used as prior art
> when someone was defending themselves against a patent
> infringement case. IIRC, Heinlein got a free waterbed from the
> defending side after they won the case.

This part is right, but only because they didn't know about the
other water beds. Also, those older ones probably didn't have
some of the enhancements Heinlein suggested.

--
Dan Tilque



--------________--------________--------

From carbonelle at juno.com  Tue Aug  5 21:37:07 2003
From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:37:07 GMT
Subject: [LMB] Re: More apologies OT:
Message-ID: <20030805.133730.13674.225817@webmail12.lax.untd.com>

Screwed the header again: Brain is definately fried
just now.  I can promise to improve, but only because
I'll be going no-mail for a while in late Aug./Sept.

Kirsten (embarrassed)

________________________________________________________________
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--------________--------________--------

From dtilque at nwlink.com  Tue Aug  5 21:47:39 2003
From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:47:39 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Heinlein
References: <14f.2232306a.2c612f1f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006f01c35b92$d02f00c0$5aa4adcf@nwlink.com>

CatMtn at aol.com wrote:

> Dan tilque writes:
>
>>  Microwave
>> ovens were invented in 1945 although they weren't
>> commercialized until 1954.
>>
> I remember a high school demonstration of a microwave in
> around 1951 or 1952 (can't have been as late as 1954 unless
> they were demonstrating it pre-release.

I suppose that's possible. I was going by a web page:

<http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/story068.htm>


> Did Heinlein perhaps coin the name?

I don't even know which story he used them in, so I can't help
you here.

--
Dan Tilque



--------________--------________--------

From e.jeurissen at home.nl  Tue Aug  5 21:52:27 2003
From: e.jeurissen at home.nl (Elly Jeurissen)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:52:27 +0200
Subject: [LMB] Birthday
In-Reply-To: <3F2F91A6.4430.18AF6C7@localhost>
Message-ID: <JKEJKIJBLDELDCLBDGMLOECLEBAA.e.jeurissen@home.nl>

Thank you, thank you. This had me LOL.

But I think I have to pass the library pass for now, I spend to much time
reading as it is...

BTW, I am rereading all books, and keep finding small treasures that point
to other books.

Like the wonderfull Ethan quote:
"But why, in God the Father's name, should they want to destroy Athos? Is
Cetaganda-controlled by women or something?"

And that books comes just after Cetaganda....

I love it. And I love Lois. More, please, more. Anything is ok.

Elly
The next number up is 'one'.

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: lois-bujold-admin at lists.herald.co.uk
> [mailto:lois-bujold-admin at lists.herald.co.uk]Namens Jim Parish
> Verzonden: dinsdag 5 augustus 2003 18:15
> Aan: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> Onderwerp: [LMB] Birthday
>
>
> <At center stage stands a sturdy metal table, with a wooden
> lectern
> on top. There is a small sheaf of papers on the table, and a
> little pile
> of Tixie Dust. The robed figure bursts onto the stage at a dead
> run,
> races to the lectern, then has to pause and wheeze a bit
> before
> beginning to speak.>
>
> Ahem. As you will recall from the syllabus, late assignments
> are
> completely unacceptable. For this reason, I must express keen
> gratitude to Kay Carrasco, for reminding me that today is the
> thirty-
> ninth birthday of Elly Jeurissen, who very nearly was forgotten
> by
> Tixies Inc. for the second consecutive year.
>
> <He waves to someone offstage, and a pair of stagehands
> come in,
> each carrying a birthday cake: one with 38 candles, and one
> with 39.
> They place the cakes on the table, one on either side of the
> lectern.>
>
> Elly, as a measure of our profound regret for last year's
> mishap and
> this year's near-repetition, allow me to present you with this
> gift
> certificate <holds up one of the papers>, which provides free
> access
> to the digitized contents of the library at Unseen University.
> All will be
> downloadable to your Palm. You need only apply to the
> Librarian to
> obtain your password. In the event that a bribe is necessary,
> be
> advised that both cakes are made of banana bread. <A
> doorbell rings,
> and furious barking erupts offstage.> Oh dear...
>
> <He rushes off again.>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold



--------________--------________--------

From carbonelle at juno.com  Tue Aug  5 21:56:41 2003
From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:56:41 GMT
Subject: [LMB] Re: Bullying OT:
Message-ID: <20030805.135657.13674.225983@webmail12.lax.untd.com>

Snipped [all of Marna's excellent posts on
bullying wh. with I completely agree]

But I wanted to second her prescription: 

"And I will probably encourage them to approach things from a
perspective of 'bullying is not okay' and form alliances with 
other bullied kids, rather than concentrate entirely on their own 
situation."

"Firstly because as various posters have mentioned, focussing mostly
on the bullied kid puts the blame on the bullied kid (why are YOU,
especially, so unpopular, rather than "why on EARTH do these people
think this is an okay way to act?) and secondly because it just plain
works better IME."

Both in my own experience and in what I've observed later amongst
teens, she's spot on.

Kirsten ("Bare is back without brother behind it") Edwards

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!



--------________--------________--------

From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu  Tue Aug  5 22:33:25 2003
From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (Andrew Lambdin-Abraham)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:33:25 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Re: Boys & Girls, bullies and dates
In-Reply-To: <20030805.133527.13674.225794@webmail12.lax.untd.com>
Message-ID: <724F7840-C78C-11D7-9D97-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu>

On Tuesday, August 5, 2003, at 03:35  PM, Kirsten Edwards wrote:

> You do? You haven't seen the girls pore over the issues of
> "Seventeen" and "YM", or read the letters column in wh. they're
> avidly trying to figure out How To Get That Guy to Like Me?
> That they aren't modifying how they talk and dress and act
> to catch and keep That Boy's attention?

I think that Marna is fully aware of this.  However, my impression, and 
one I think I share with her, is that the age at which most girls do 
this is somewhat above the age at which most physical bullying occurs, 
and thus reacting to bullying doesn't interfere with the dating game, 
since those take place in different timespans.

Andrew



--------________--------________--------

From tracy.macshane at vuw.ac.nz  Tue Aug  5 22:47:56 2003
From: tracy.macshane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:47:56 +1200
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dune again, MZB
References: <3F2F5346.29261.974EFC@localhost>
 <20030805085838.E1718@shell.rawbw.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c35b9b$3b024990$920fc382@staff.vuw.ac.nz>

Azalais Malfoy wrote:
[snip]
> And I'd go with them.  I mean, have you seen what Brian Herbert
> let K*v*n *nd*rs*n DO to _Dune_?
>
[snip]

Hear, hear! What complete and utter trash those "prequels" are. The best
thing about the Dune books are their look at politics and religion. Those
*other* books reduce everything down to grubby personal squickiness.

And speaking of crap (that word again!) "collaborations", what about the
Adrienne Martine-Barnes' hashes of MZB? I was thinking, cool!, some stuff
after the World Wreckers, and gobbled all three books up. What a mistake
that was! L*cky may have her faults, but she was one hell of a lot better
with Darkover stuff. I realise MZB must have been on her last legs when
those books were plotted, but having them go out under her name (only a
"with..." on the title page) was just taking the p*ss.



--------________--------________--------

From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz  Tue Aug  5 22:52:43 2003
From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:52:43 +1200
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dune again, MZB
Message-ID: <A0EBB0B07A96AF489E32FFA71885A8261018B6@coso.staff.vuw.ac.nz
 >

It's not 10 o'clock yet, and I haven't had my 2nd cup of tea...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tracy MacShane 
> The best thing about the Dune books are their look at politics and
religion. 

...IS their look at politics and religion. IS, IS, IS!



--------________--------________--------

From mabonwy at mindspring.com  Tue Aug  5 22:55:50 2003
From: mabonwy at mindspring.com (Sara A.)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:55:50 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: Biology & sexuality OT:
In-Reply-To: <20030805.131540.13674.225607@webmail12.lax.untd.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030805174920.02818070@pop.mindspring.com>

At 08:15 PM 8/5/03 +0000, you wrote:
>  But where I run
>into it now, it's tied up with the denial and attempted eradication
>of male aggression, rather the the acknowledgement and redirection
>of same. That... doesn't please me.

I think people in general are aggressive, it's just that girls growing up 
get punished for it more harshly.  Now boys are also getting punished for 
it harshly....or it's ignored until they do something really outrageous, at 
which point they are punished all out of proportion to the act.


>I *don't* see my natural agressiveness as a flaw, btw, wh. is
>what makes me sympathetic to some of the anti-feminist men.

Anti-feminist men generally think that it's perfectly all right for THEM to 
be aggressive, just not you if you happen to be female.  I have encountered 
this attitude over and over again.  I don't see how it helps, and I have no 
sympathy for it.

Of course, I don't have any sympathy for people who echo the same attitude 
in a warped way by declaring aggression to be some kind of uniquely male 
mental disorder, that THEY never engage in, either.  Passive-aggression is 
still aggression **snort**

The impulse seems to be to quell the feeling, rather than find a 
constructive way to deal with it, which is never a good idea.

Sara



--------________--------________--------

From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  6 00:14:10 2003
From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:14:10 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Heinlein
Message-ID: <Law11-F121JoxDlOhTh0002e87c@hotmail.com>

From: D Echelbarger:
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:18:07 -0500

>Paula said:
>>he came up with the idea of
>>a microwave oven "and thus
> >was born Amana."

><snip> but the Amana appliance corporation was, according to their website, 
>"founded in 1934",
when a clever craftsman invented the first refrigerator.  And the Amana
Colonies, the still-extant utopian community for which the company was 
named, is
decades older than that.<

Yes, and they still produce an excellent product!

Lorraine

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus



--------________--------________--------

From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  6 00:39:07 2003
From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:39:07 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT:  Was Miniloiscon now mostly bird brains
Message-ID: <Law11-F8o9Q78bTp6fz0002ef50@hotmail.com>

"Robert Warnicke" aces himself out of any more dinners <g> (or would that be 
squab pies?):
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:44:04 -0700

>Well, turns out my memory isn't so good, I'm only 50 pages in, and one
of the characters is becoming interesting.  So maybe it will be ok.<

Oh, good! It was too long a book to be boring. I hate to NOT read something 
I've paid for and, if it is short, will plow through it, but not if it's 
truly long and bad!

>>(from one bird brain to another - newer listees may
>>not know that I consider that to be the *highest* compliment <g>).

>Yeah maybe, but I know those are pigeon brains you are talking about,
not the smartest birds,  "Oh look, three twigs together, that's a nest!"
Has anyone actually seen a pigeon perch in a tree like a normal bird?  I
thought not.  <

All right, all right! You DO NOT want me to start in on your numerous cats 
with some of their strange habits, do you??? <you see, I'm not *totally* 
above blackmail <veg>>

Now, I might agree that pigeons may not be THE smartest birds, but they are 
very loyal (well, okay, so some of mine have not been the greatest parents, 
but that's not the topic, here), determined, learn quickly. I am a big 
pigeon fan - well, YOU know that, Rob, but not everybody does. I was also 
talking about the other members of my menagerie. I had to chase Russet, our 
adventuresome red hen, out of the laundry room yesterday, because she 
discovered that the cat food bowls had been put inside. That's pretty smart. 
Nothing is "out of sight, out of mind" with them. <g>

Billiam is whistling his little wolf whistle from his cage in my office at 
me, right now. For those who don't know, Billiam is an 8-week-old scarlet 
breasted parrot (Aussie grass parakeet family - neophema splendida) that I 
hand raised from 1 and 1/2 days old. He is fully feathered, but his beak has 
just started turning black and his chest has yet to turn scarlet. They are 
small, and I've never known anyone who had one as a house pet. They are very 
docile, calm parrots and make good aviary birds. He has already learned to 
wolf whistle and recognizes the words "yummy," "water," "food," "cracker," 
"bye bye," and "car seat." He doesn't *say* any of them, mind you, but his 
actions make it plain that he understands them. Rob, you would be amazed at 
how different he looks from the little creature in the tupperware container 
you poked at in the office that day! So, when I get my keys in the morning 
and say it's time for bye bye, he gets very excited, hops on my finger and 
gets into his "car seat" to go in the car. Then, he enjoys his day at the 
office. At night, he likes to go to sleep on my shoulder while I'm watching 
Law & Order, whistling very softly to himself.

>I had to rescue a baby pigeon from Murder Row (area
between my garage and neighbors house, baby pigeons fall out of
aforementioned "nests" and numerous feral cats work on their shredding
skills) last week.  I took him to Jody (Fallen Feathers).  Your house
would have been closer, but I don't know how to reach you on the
weekends.<

You've already made up for your infelicitous remarks regarding the 
intelligence of my feathered clan with this <g>!

><snip> but at my rental house, the tenant I do know about
tells me that last night a tenant I didn't know about decided to take up
residence on top of my garage.  I guess he is a pigeon brain, I never
would have picked it for a "nest".  Downtown is so much fun.  I wonder
if Home Depo sells razor wire...  Sigh.<

On TOP of the garage?? Hmmm, maybe you should scatter some pigeon seed 
there. NO ONE wants to bed down in pigeon byproducts! Heh.

Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus



--------________--------________--------

From tinne at eskimo.com  Wed Aug  6 00:41:38 2003
From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:41:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [LMB] Was Miniloiscon now mostly bird brains
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0308051553150.15901-100000@eskimo.com>

There is in Auburn a pigeon loving peregrine falcon. And how s/he gets
the parts of the bird she enjoys is is pretty interesting to watch. It
pretty much exemplifies the relationship on Cetaganda between the haut
and ba to me.

There is a particular wire that all the pigeons in town like to roost
on between sortees to the parking lot for crumbs. Across from a bus
stop where I used to wait for transfers, this wire allowed for quite a
bit of pigeon/falcon observation because it held a lot of pigeons and
was close to the hospital where the peregrine was nesting on the
highest roof.

The drill goes something like this:
The pigeon flock is sitting on the wire minding their own business.

The falcon comes swooping onto the wire at an empty spot.

By the time s/he lands, the wire is totally empty as the pigeons
panic to elsewhere.

The falcon waits.

A lone pigeon slinks back to the wire, as far from the falcon as it
can get.

The falcon waits.

A few more pigeons return to the wire.

The falcon waits.

Still more pigeons return to the wire.

The falcon waits.

Gradually all the pigeons return to the wire, leaving a bit of space
between themselves and the falcon but not as much as you might
expect - they are within inches of it.

The falcon waits and the wire looks like a band of pigeons with a
larger member with different coloration somewhere in the midst of it.

A pigeon starts behaving as if it is going to fly down to the lot.

The falcon gets into position to take off, watching the pigeon
closely.

The pigeons start the worry dance - one gets ready to leave, the
falcon is ready to take flight, pigeon settles back down, but another
bird gets ready to fly, the falcon is still ready to take flight, that
pigeon settles back down, etc. In a much shorter time than one might
expect, the pigeons stop the worry dance, even though the falcon is
still on high alert and ready to go after the first pigeon to leave.

Finally, a pigeon either forgets the falcon is there or can't wait for
crumbs any longer and takes off the wire.

The falcon lets it go.

Another pigeon leaves the wire, this time closer to the falcon.

The falcon lets it go.

A third pigeon departs.

The falcon lets it go.

The fourth or fifth pigeon to leave the wire is now oblivious to the
falcon, who stoops from the wire at a very high speed and the pigeon
is dead before it reaches the ground.

Falcon eats just the pigeon tasty bits and flies back to the wire.
Starting the whole sequence over again.

I found it a very interesting thing to watch, but it also pointed out
to me the fallacy of what some animal behaviorists will say when
regarding what they see as the wastefulness of the human race:
"Animals never waste parts of a prey animal unless they are startled
away from it by another predator or human intervention."

Here is a falcon with so much access to so many pigeons that it only
eats its favorite parts of the pigeon and leaves the rest to be
cleaned up by humans in charge of keeping the parking lot clean. I
have seen over a dozen pigeon carcasses waiting to be swept up.

When I was re-reading Cetaganda, I found myself thinking of the
pigeons and the falcon. Not just because the haut are breeding ba
servitors, but because they are doing long-term observation of the ba
who have great loyalty toward them. I see the haut as taking the best
bits of the experiment-that-is-ba and using that to manipulate the
haut genome.

Its not so much that the ba or the pigeons are stupid, but the haut
are using long-term contact to reduce suspicion of what is
essentially a master-slave relationship of their own near-relatives.
The ba are not really free, and they do not live a life of ease - they
are servants of the haut and have a loyalty to the haut that is quite
like that of worker bees/ants to the fertile members of the hive/nest.

But the haut do not see them as infertile equals, they see them as a
source for the data on how to best manipulate the haut genome. They
are like falcons harvesting the best bits from the ba-pigeons.

Susan in Seattle



--------________--------________--------

From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  6 00:49:59 2003
From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:49:59 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Birthdays
Message-ID: <Law11-F83SyZhZqp2k00002824b@hotmail.com>

The Lil' Horned Hopper wishes Elly Jeurissen and Ree Moorhead Pruehs, 
respectively, festive birthdays, replete with food, drink, companionship, 
and Bujold! Happy birthday!

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail



--------________--------________--------

From marna at marna.ca  Wed Aug  6 01:17:08 2003
From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:17:08 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2707 - 25 msgs
Message-ID: <019701c35bb0$1564b8c0$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca>

>I wrote that girls resist beating guys (as opposed to merely
>beating them up) because it interferes with the sexual dance
>that preoccupies them.
>
>But Marna notes: "I have to say this strikes me as interesting
>but improbable."
>
>You do? You haven't seen the girls pore over the issues of
>"Seventeen" and "YM", or read the letters column in wh. they're
>avidly trying to figure out How To Get That Guy to Like Me?

*shudders* Gods, Yes, but they do discriminate, usually. THAT guy, not ALL
guys ...

>And you don't think this would have much (if any) influence
>on their competitive behaviour w/those same boys?


Oh, sure I do. I just think that the effect in many cases is "go like H*ll
and date the one you can't beat. (Or the one the other rivals for her
affections can't beat) ".

That is, after all, both the correct evolutionary strategy and the one which
best satisfies the adolescent need to see just how big and difficult a fish
one is able to hook and possibly land, as well as the traditional gender
roles.

My argument was just that I rarely met a girl in high school who gave a hot
nickel what any boy she could beat at something at all important thought of
her... she was looking for the admiration of the one who beat HER.

M.



--------________--------________--------

From sir-talen at comcast.net  Wed Aug  6 02:11:10 2003
From: sir-talen at comcast.net (Royce Day)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 21:11:10 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: *snrk* *snrk* *snrk*
References: <009001c35b60$474e07b0$9f1e1f43@Ivanova>
Message-ID: <3F3055AE.6040205@comcast.net>

Icewolf wrote:

<snip>

>
>I'm still on the Lackey list mainly because I've been on it for so long
>(1995). *sigh* It used to be more like this list, less a cult of
>personality.
>
>-Lyn
>  
>
Yeah, I can't see Lois ever putting up with a personality cult.

<Royce looks over his shoulder, and everrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr so casually 
closes the doors to the small altar with lit candles and Herself's 
signed portrait.>

-Royce in l/ov/e/w/i/t/hL/o/i/s'/e/v/e/r/y/u/t/t/e/r/a/n/c/e in MD



--------________--------________--------

From paal at gis.net  Wed Aug  6 02:13:24 2003
From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:13:24 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Re:  Microwaving, was OT: Heinlein
References: <Law11-F121JoxDlOhTh0002e87c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <031901c35bb7$f04bfb40$0100a8c0@LAPTOP>

Raytheon bought Amana to commercialize microwave oven technology, and owned
it for many years after.  Eventually I think Raytheon sold it when companies
engaged in businesses which including defense contracting, were shedding
consumer electronics and white goods (GE shed its small appliances, its TV
business, GTE shed its TV and small applicances business, Raytheon sold off
Amana, GE -did-, however, keep the refrigerators and washing machines, and
last I was  paying attention, still makes them.  GE sold the consumer TV and
consumer audio stuff to Thomson in exchange for Thomson's medical imaginag
business, and GE sold most of the small appliances off to Black & Decker..

Does the website refer to Raytheon having owned Amana at all?

I was quoting people who'd known the Raytheon engineer.   Yes, it's
hyperbole....  but the Hershey bar melting was real.

-- Paula Lieberman
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "lorraine fletez-brant" <lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com>


> From: D Echelbarger:
>
> >Paula said:
> >>he came up with the idea of a microwave oven "and thus
> > >was born Amana."
>
> ><snip> but the Amana appliance corporation was, according
>>  to their website, "founded in 1934", when a clever craftsman
>> invented the first refrigerator. ....

> Yes, and they still produce an excellent product!



--------________--------________--------

From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  6 03:12:37 2003
From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 19:12:37 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dune again
Message-ID: <Law11-F45JklxHFtrUO0002f39b@hotmail.com>

Tracy MacShane and others write:
Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:47:56 +1200

>Hear, hear! What complete and utter trash those "prequels" are. The best
thing about the Dune books are their look at politics and religion. Those
*other* books reduce everything down to grubby personal squickiness.<

Hi, all, she says, peeking out from under the covers. It's time to poke my 
head out and be brave enough to get blasted <g>. I *love* the prequels. 
There, I said it. Haven't been shot so far :)

Dune was practically a bible to me in middle grade school and junior high. I 
really don't know how many times I have read it. The next Dune was good. The 
third Dune started getting weird. The end of the series was trash, AFAIWC. 
So - when the prequels came out, I wasn't in the least bit interested. Until 
my stepbrother-in-law got a copy of the first one for Christmas one year and 
lent it to me. I think they are well written, have good plots, explain a lot 
of the background that would have made enjoyable reading when Dune came out. 
I have House Harkonnen, but haven't gotten to it yet (all this PoS and 
Stirling stuff is just getting in the way <g>), but I fully expect to enjoy 
it.

So, okay, Tracy and all, shoot those arrows now (just hope they're not 
poisoned too much <g>)!

Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper who in junior high used to recite to herself a 
lot (Obschoolbullies topic): "Fear is the mind-killer....I will face my 
fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me....Where the fear has 
gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."  Still a good mantra IMHO. 
Thank you, Frank Herbert!

_________________________________________________________________
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--------________--------________--------

From tracy.macshane at vuw.ac.nz  Wed Aug  6 03:32:32 2003
From: tracy.macshane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:32:32 +1200
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dune again
References: <Law11-F45JklxHFtrUO0002f39b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <003901c35bc2$fcd8b730$920fc382@staff.vuw.ac.nz>

lorraine fletez-brant wrote:
>
> Hi, all, she says, peeking out from under the covers. It's time to
> poke my head out and be brave enough to get blasted <g>. I *love* the
> prequels. There, I said it. Haven't been shot so far :)
>
> Dune was practically a bible to me in middle grade school and junior
> high. I really don't know how many times I have read it. The next
> Dune was good. The third Dune started getting weird. The end of the
> series was trash, AFAIWC.
[snippy]

Hey, Lorraine, I don't shoot people! It's definitely a case of YMMV, isn't
it? I liked the last books in the Dune series more than the 1st 3 (although
the last *is* a wee bit odd). I never really took to Paul as a character, he
seemed much too smug. But yes, I kept rereading them all through my teenage
years, I was completely compelled by the whole story.

House Harkonnen was the first book of the others I encountered, and I think
it's pretty crass. I think I was so irritated with that one, it didn't help
my perception of the others in the series - they seemed more trivial,
somehow (although I did manage to plough right through them, so they can't
have been that bad).

Also, I read them as an adult, and I think my reading tastes  have somewhat
changed as I've gotten older. The idea of rereading the Pern books makes me
shudder now, but I identified *so* much with Menolly when I was 14 (except I
can't sing, my mastery of musical instruments is indifferent, I can't play
guitar at all, or run well, and my physical attributes were more
...developed than hers).

And yes, the Litany Against Fear used to come to me often as a teenager -
it's amazing where we get our support and affirmation from sometimes (SF
novels, what's wrong with me!)



--------________--------________--------

From ginni.berger at juno.com  Wed Aug  6 03:22:15 2003
From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:22:15 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: adults vs the kid (was snrk)
Message-ID: <20030805.224340.1072.0.ginni.berger@juno.com>

On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:45:54 -0400 "Icewolf" <icewolf010 at earthlink.net>
writes:
 The last thing resembling a real discussion was a bunch of 
> people
> flaming a kid because she dared ask why Lackey doesn't allow RPG's and
>fanfic. There's a listee over there who seems to have set herself up 
> as the ultimate authority and I've just posted an alternative argument.
> 
> On a related note, could I just thank all the teenagers on this list
for,
> well, um, not acting like teenagers? Oh, and I'd
> like to thank the grown ups for not acting like teenagers, too. The
list is
> incredible in so many ways, but the way we talk and communicate with
each
> other continues to boggle my mind.
-Lyn
> -- 

I can't really blame you for your reaction, but the girl was very snarky
herself, and she decided to take Misty's decision rather badly, though I
agree the grownups shouldn't have responded the way they did. Most of
them seem extremely wrapped up in their rp characters, and it makes me
wonder how grownup they really are. We discuss a scientific fiction, so
of course we're compatible in our discussions. Fantasy seems to bring out
the weirdness in some people, but Herself's fantasy is more sophisticated
in many ways. I like both authors and belong to both lists, and I do find
the people on this list much easier to talk with since we concern
ourselves with more than what's happening in our persona's world,
especially since none of us have a persona except with how we relate to
the books. Misty's list is filled with a lot of people who want to escape
from our world entirely. At least, that's how I've seen it since I 
joined.



--------________--------________--------

From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  6 04:57:48 2003
From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:57:48 -0700
Subject: [LMB] LMB] Was Miniloiscon now mostly bird brains
Message-ID: <Law11-F10776UaiRNhF0002f803@hotmail.com>

Susan Profit penned:

>But the haut do not see them as infertile equals, they see them as a
source for the data on how to best manipulate the haut genome. They
are like falcons harvesting the best bits from the ba-pigeons.<

Hi, Susan and all!

This was a wonderfully drawn analogy, Susan. Your description was so vivid 
that I could clearly see the patient falcon and the hesitating pigeons, 
starting, stopping, finally going...ending up as dinner for a skillful, 
watchful Peregrine.

I guess I've always pictured the Haut as "finely drawn" people, too, like 
hawks, with regal, chiseled features, thin, high-arched noses. (But then, 
bird features *are* beautiful to me, so I guess I would <g>)

I'd never thought of the ba as pigeons; more like sheep (which I'm also 
inordinately fond of <g>). But, of course, the wolf and the sheep have a 
similar relationship, don't they?

Lorraine - feathered Hopper <she wishes - don't get me going on 
gengineering!>

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail



--------________--------________--------

From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com  Wed Aug  6 04:59:53 2003
From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 23:59:53 -0400
Subject: [LMB] The Birthday Tixor
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030805235704.00a0c270@pop3.norton.antivirus>

In re: our distinguished Tixor's recent birthday efforts:

Jim, you're doing a super job; your anecdotes are a delight to read.  Thanks!

Jerrie



--------________--------________--------

From CatMtn at aol.com  Wed Aug  6 05:06:25 2003
From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:06:25 EDT
Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Microwaves and Radar
Message-ID: <14f.223845f7.2c61d8c1@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/5/2003 5:06:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes:

> No.  The microwave oven came about when a Raytheon engineer named Percy who
> ate Hershey  bars, and had one in his shirt pocket as usual, was working
> with a leaky radar tube. The Hershey bar melted in his pocket, he came up
> with the idea of a microwave oven "and thus was born Amana." It was  called
> a Radarange because ovens are the time were called "ranges" and having one
> that cooked by radar, would be a "Radarange."   I was told the story by
> people who had known him.
> 

This is probably the way Amana came to be, but my husband said that when he 
was navigating blimps that contained a very large radar installation (does 
Apse-40 sound right?), they used to set fire to things like steel wool by aiming 
the radar at it to demonstrate to new radar techs that aiming the radar at 
anything close by that you didn't want incinerated was a really bad idea.  This 
was an old standard demonstration, not something his group worked up.  I'm not 
sure of the year, but he went into the Navy in 1953.  Anyway, radar as a source 
of intense heat must have been pretty well known for quite a while before 
anybody thought of building an actual microwave.

Mary



--------________--------________--------

From matya13 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  6 05:13:56 2003
From: matya13 at yahoo.com (Amy Sikes)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:13:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [LMB] OT: Freedom!
Message-ID: <20030806041356.16958.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com>

*looks around hesitantly and waves*

Hey there.  How's folks?

I feel a little weird posting this, since I've been MIA so very
long, but some folks might like to know that I am finally and
utterly free of my Tien.  *does a brief happy dance*  It took a
long time and a lot of annoyance (and, yes, anger), but I got
him to sign the divorce papers at last.  And now I am also
beyond that 30-day period where he could reneg on his signing! 
Funnily enough, this whole thing gave me real insight into what
Ekaterin probably would have had to deal with had Tien not so
conveniently kicked off...

I have been unduly distracted for a good long while, so I really
don't know what's going on here on the list (she confesses
sheepishly).  I thought this post might even fall under the "My
Cat Fluffy" heading, but then I realized that I don't know what
that really is!  I hope the OT: marker is sufficient.

I know I owe a number of you emails, and for that I apologize. 
I have no excuse.  Well, okay, one excuse: anyone who has sent
mail to me at my Tmicha addy...well, they, errrr...have had
months' worth of problems, and I have very rarely been able to
access my mail there.  If you wouldn't mind, please use this
addy instead. (matya13 at yahoo.com)

Anyway, I am very glad to finally have some real freedom.  Now
the trick is figuring out what to do with it...

Cheers,
Amy ~ Long-lost daughter of the LMB list!



--------________--------________--------

From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu  Wed Aug  6 05:19:14 2003
From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (Andrew Lambdin-Abraham)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:19:14 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Freedom!
In-Reply-To: <20030806041356.16958.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <23603065-C7C5-11D7-9D97-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu>

On Tuesday, August 5, 2003, at 11:13  PM, Amy Sikes wrote:

> but some folks might like to know that I am finally and
> utterly free of my Tien.

Congratulations to you, and I hope that with this burden lifted from 
your shoulders you have the time soon to resume full participation on 
the list.  I did miss your posts.

Andrew



--------________--------________--------

From carosue at centurytel.net  Wed Aug  6 05:19:13 2003
From: carosue at centurytel.net (House of Unruly Fish)
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:19:13 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Poor Simon's Almanack - Aug 6
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030804225907.00ba75f8@mail.so.centurytel.net>

The Colossal Colon rolls into Minneapolis today!

This Day In Listory:

2002 - Mark Mandel does a filk-a-thon for ACC. Icky Earth plants that might 
as well be from Barrayar. Suggestions from various listees about PDAs. 
James B wishes to know what "cooties" are, and the listmind responds with 
its customary speed, accuracy and humor.
2001 - (Digests 4427-31) Barrayaran Clue is a big hit! And of course CoC 
discussion is still going strong. POST FROM LOIS requesting a reminder 
about what meals when (with listees) after her signings during her upcoming 
book tour, and another in 4430, praising with ow!s Jean Lamb's Goldfish 
filk, and filling in some historical data she used as background in CoC.
2000 - (Digests 3518-9) Surprising amount of discussion on debit/credit 
cards.  Ivan gets most of what on topic chat there is.
1999 - (Digests 2616-8) POSTS FROM LOIS (2616) with some thoughts about 
readers reading in chunks, and also how she enjoys seeing the reactions as 
ACC comes out bit by bit. In 2617 she solicits listee help in locating an 
old book (research material for CoC?), and also reiterates her praiseful 
blurb of Peg Kerr's book The Wild Swans. (I agree, really good book!) Lots 
of ACC chat, with another really excellent overview by James Burbidge. 
Great Mark filk by Jim Parish in 2618.
1998 - (Digests 1790-4) A few voices crying in the wilderness of the g*n 
debate (and others) with good on topic posts about the common soldier's 
options during the War of the Vordarian Pretendership (pretty much 
nil).  Some interesting groat chat as well.
1997 - (Digest 805) New topic is Barrayaran weapons, in aid of costumers' 
plans.
1996 - (Digest 329) James Bryant reports Lois will be GoH at 
Coppercon.  Various ideas on where to find ImpSec eyes (Eyes of Horus).
1995 - (Digest 43) Marriage chat marches on.

Respectfully submitted by,

Susan the Neon Nurse

All the above info collected from:

http://lists.herald.co.uk/old-archives/lois-bujold/

and the New List archives at

http://lists.herald.co.uk/pipermail/lois-bujold/

Additions, corrections or faint hope of surviving this week may be sent to 
carosue at centurytel.net 



--------________--------________--------

From d_reykova at juno.com  Wed Aug  6 05:37:51 2003
From: d_reykova at juno.com (Danielle N. Hart)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 04:37:51 GMT
Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2707 - 25 msgs
Message-ID: <20030806.003847.8630.834029@webmail18.nyc.untd.com>

 On the whole thread of beating boys/men vs. beating them up, Her Ladyship does briefly and entertainingly address this in PoS.  At least, from a Chalionese POV.

 Personally speaking, I find men who aren't threatened by my accomplishments attractive, but that's just me.  Although the ones who'll keep coming back and trying to prove themselves have entertainment value.

 Danielle

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--------________--------________--------

From megj at nwlink.com  Wed Aug  6 05:18:25 2003
From: megj at nwlink.com (MegJ)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:18:25 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Biology & sexuality
References: <7810-3F2F5013-4199@storefull-2377.public.lawson.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <022d01c35bd4$ffb285f0$a5e94b43@meg>

Jane:
> Maybe Meg had less trouble from the principal because there was no real
> damage to her harasser. If she'd hit him with the tray rather than
> dumping milk,  there would be more damage than just washing clothes,
> bodies, & the floor.

Well, it did decorate his leather jacket quite nicely...  Don't know if the
effect was permanent.

Megaera
like Jerrie, still feeling a bit smug



--------________--------________--------

From stratton at oz.net  Wed Aug  6 05:47:46 2003
From: stratton at oz.net (Paul Stratton)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:47:46 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Freedom!
In-Reply-To: <20030806041356.16958.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000001c35bd5$e1899e00$6402a8c0@double>

Welcome back Amy!

> Anyway, I am very glad to finally have some real freedom.  Now
> the trick is figuring out what to do with it...

Torcon.

> Cheers,
> Amy ~ Long-lost daughter of the LMB list!

Paul



--------________--------________--------

From raye_j at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  6 05:52:53 2003
From: raye_j at yahoo.com (Raye Johnsen)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:52:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [LMB] OT: Dune again
In-Reply-To: <Law11-F45JklxHFtrUO0002f39b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20030806045253.21877.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com>

--- lorraine fletez-brant
<lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com> wrote:> >Hear, hear!
What complete and utter trash those
> "prequels" are. The best
> thing about the Dune books are their look at
> politics and religion. Those
> *other* books reduce everything down to grubby
> personal squickiness.<
> 
> Hi, all, she says, peeking out from under the
> covers. It's time to poke my 
> head out and be brave enough to get blasted <g>. I
> *love* the prequels. 
> There, I said it. Haven't been shot so far :)

I think it is DEFINITELY a case of personal taste.  I
haven't read the prequels but from what I understand,
they are 'fleshing out' of the notes Frank Herbert
left behind.  If it's the writing style you dislike, I
think you have a fair gripe, but the storylines were
plotted by Herbert snr.

> Dune was practically a bible to me in middle grade
> school and junior high.

Maybe it's because my mother wouldn't let me read it
until I was fifteen (she used to vet my reading
materials *very* carefully, being one of those people
who are fully aware of the fact that something that
makes fireworks go off *inside* the head can be much
more dangerous in the long run), but I find that
reaction rather hard to understand.

Of course, by that age I was utterly disgusted with
any and all institutionalized religions (and able to
make the