From jacqui.kaiser at clear.net.nz Thu May 1 00:02:35 2003 From: jacqui.kaiser at clear.net.nz (Jacqui Kaiser) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:02:35 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Uterine replicators & personal In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030429120300.02df8d20@mail.iqcisp.com> References: <01ac01c30e0e$a477ee00$11b71e43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <0HE500JFFL880L@smtp1.clear.net.nz> I had a similar experience to Louann when she wrote > Or in the case of my lil' Andrew, my milk production was insufficient. A > baby starving to death is by definition not healthy, even if most of the > new-baby books in the house say that low milk production doesn't happen and > not to worry about it. That happened to me - after about a week it was finally discovered that I wasn't producing enough milk. The lactation consultants at the hospital and my midwife worked in conjunction (daily visits and phone calls) to try to increase my milk supply, including additional expressing (pump followed by hand) after baby tried feeding, but nothing worked and only emphasized the severity of the problem. It took about a week of solid formula feeding for him to regain the weight that he lost from not feeding properly in that first week or so of his life (not to mention dehydration). The nurses at the hospital assured me that of course my milk had come in, everyone's does. Well it never did properly. The lactation consultant at the hospital told me that about 1% of women do not produce enough milk (although it is misused by many as a reason for not breastfeeding) and that I belonged to that 1%. She also pointed out some physical signs (wide space between breasts, very light areolae, etc) that are sometimes found in women who don't produce enough milk. My midwife said that I was the first in the 90 or so clients that she had seen with that problem. However, both she and the lactation consultants assured me that, in their words, I had done everything possible to bring on my milk supply. I was offered an anti nausea drug which had a side effect of increasing lactation while being taken but by that time my baby was happily formula feeding and I didn't want the drug to pass through to him. I still offer him the breast each day and I think that he's getting a few mls (all he ever got from me), so he's getting some of the benefit of breastfeeding, even if it's only a tiny proportion of the ideal. He's 7 months and very happy and healthy. Sorry about the length and personal nature of this post, but I haven't met anyone before who has been in the same position as me and I wanted to share my story. It may be rare but it DOES occur. However, try to explain that to some people and they assume that you're just making excuses because you couldn't be bothered - so this was a chance for me to state my case. ObBujold: I have a new appreciation for Cordelia's (?) comment about most true wealth being biological. Also for the thrill that she feels in "Barrayar" when she realises that there is no limit to the number of children that she is allowed to bear. Sometimes I look at my son and am filled with wonder when I realise that there is no reason why I can't have another child (so long as I don't leave it too long). Jacqui PS I've just read some more posts and found Louann's Pizza call. I'll still send this anyway to get it out of my system, but I agree with her call. If you want to discuss our similar experiences Louann, (or anyone else who wants to know about it), feel free to email me directly. . --------________--------________-------- From countryboy66 at mchsi.com Thu May 1 00:04:26 2003 From: countryboy66 at mchsi.com (Countryboy) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:04:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: [OT] Uterine replicators & personal References: <5.2.1.1.1.20030429120300.02df8d20@mail.iqcisp.com> <01ac01c30e0e$a477ee00$11b71e43@LAPTOP> <5.2.1.1.1.20030430154546.02dee660@mail.iqcisp.com> Message-ID: <00a901c30f6c$d9143290$d18dd70c@MainComputer> I've been keeping quiet, but here goes. I have 4 wonderful (sp?) little girls who my wife was unable to breastfeed. I took the night shift because I take sleep deprivation better. No ailments (earaches, etc.) My brother and I were bottle feed (no ailments). The oldest and the twins were 1 year and 1 week apart. I've been quiet because I'm not a woman and can't pretend to answer for one. Love, respect, and honesty are how we are doing our best to raise them. I've made mistakes in my life (despite, not because of, my parents) and I hope to help my little ones (not so little anymore) out. Countryboy (Allen) - sorry for the off topic, just had to get that out. Now return to your regularly scheduled list. --------________--------________-------- From countryboy66 at mchsi.com Thu May 1 00:18:19 2003 From: countryboy66 at mchsi.com (Countryboy) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:18:19 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Gene Therapy References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030430152500.02ed4c80@slashyalex.com> <3EB050FC.B33A7DDE@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <00b101c30f6e$c94271e0$d18dd70c@MainComputer> On a lighter note. There was an article in my Analog magazine called "Personalized Drugs" by Kyle Kirkland. It talks about the future of pharmocology when we are able to use DNA testing to determine the effects of genes on drug prescription. The way I read it, it is just another step before we have the scene in Komarr (Sorry don't know the short version yet.). "Nikki'g gene scan shows the dystrophy complex to be very much in the classic mode." "I believe that our gene techs can have the retrovirus personlized for Nikki in about a week." And somewhere else they mention that it is more expensive because it is rare. LMB does it again. Countryboy (Allen) - always happy to find something in the current literature that LMB has already predicted. --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Thu May 1 00:34:55 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:34:55 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Paladin of Souls Bound Galleys Auction Update In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030427230153.00bc76f8@mail.so.centurytel.net> References: <20030428003331.GC19743@fireopal.org> <5.2.1.1.2.20030427230153.00bc76f8@mail.so.centurytel.net> Message-ID: <20030430233455.GA14693@fireopal.org> On Sun, Apr 27, 2003 at 11:15:24PM -0600, House of Unruly Fish wrote: > I am wondering, will the high bid be the HIGH bid, or posted the way eBay > does it, with the highest amount of a person's bid that is needed to win at > that point in time? Admittedly, THEY have automated software to do that, > and you probably don't... Speaking as the auctioneer / page maintainer... It's easiest to just add the new bids at the top. That will automagically get us bid history. I am NOT going to do eBay style proxy bidding - your bid goes up as your bid. Kindly note - if I do Dutch, that means that in the following bid sequence: A bids $18 at 4PM B bids $50 at 5PM C bids $30 at 6PM D bids $40 at 7PM the current high bidders will be: B at $50 D at $40 C at $30 and all three would be getting a copy. OK, not quite "added at the top" - but I think I'm going to plan on bid history showing. I think the reason eBay doesn't is because it would interact ... interestingly with their proxy bidding scheme. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From wks at worldpath.net Thu May 1 00:52:24 2003 From: wks at worldpath.net (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:52:24 -0400 Subject: OT: Maple Mead was Re: [LMB] Re: Comment on marrying young In-Reply-To: <3EB04959.29D493A2@microd.com> References: <20030430104747.E16157-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <188.18da480f.2be16215@aol.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20030430155336.02273be0@mail.panix.com> <3EB04959.29D493A2@microd.com> Message-ID: <3EB061B8.3000607@worldpath.net> Richard Macdonald wrote: > That reminds me, I made a batch of Maple/Honey mead that is now 8 months > old > a nice amber color, approaching drinkability and ~ 10% with plenty of > sugar to > go as it sits in the carboy. 10% alcohol and still quite sweet, a real > "guerella" beverage that will sneak up and slap you upside the head. > I don't even remember how long my batch sat in the carboy. I checked it at 3 weeks, then 6 weeks, then at 3 months, I got mad, stuck it in a closet and forgot about it. About months later I found it, checked the measurement, got below 1.0,and said "It's done!" :) Bill, hemrit in NH --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Thu May 1 01:33:34 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:33:34 -0500 Subject: OT: Maple Mead was Re: [LMB] Re: Comment on marrying young In-Reply-To: <3EB061B8.3000607@worldpath.net> References: <3EB04959.29D493A2@microd.com> <20030430104747.E16157-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <188.18da480f.2be16215@aol.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20030430155336.02273be0@mail.panix.com> <3EB04959.29D493A2@microd.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030430193211.02def210@mail.iqcisp.com> At 07:52 PM 4/30/2003 -0400, Bill Stewart wrote: >Richard Macdonald wrote: > >>That reminds me, I made a batch of Maple/Honey mead that is now 8 months >>old >>a nice amber color, approaching drinkability and ~ 10% with plenty of >>sugar to >>go as it sits in the carboy. 10% alcohol and still quite sweet, a real >>"guerella" beverage that will sneak up and slap you upside the head. > >I don't even remember how long my batch sat in the carboy. I checked it >at 3 weeks, then 6 weeks, then at 3 months, I got mad, stuck it in a >closet and forgot about it. About months later I found it, checked the >measurement, got below 1.0,and said "It's done!" :) We've never made maple mead, but we make honey mead fairly frequently and we always use yeast nutrient to get drinkability in less than a year. Louann, with four bottles left in the pantry, practicing willpower really really hard. --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Thu May 1 01:35:36 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:35:36 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Gene Therapy In-Reply-To: <00b101c30f6e$c94271e0$d18dd70c@MainComputer> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030430152500.02ed4c80@slashyalex.com> <3EB050FC.B33A7DDE@wfu.edu> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030430193415.02df04e0@mail.iqcisp.com> At 06:18 PM 4/30/2003 -0500, Countryboy wrote: >On a lighter note. > >There was an article in my Analog magazine called "Personalized Drugs" by >Kyle Kirkland. It talks about the future of pharmocology when we are able >to use DNA testing to determine the effects of genes on drug prescription. >The way I read it, it is just another step before we have the scene in >Komarr (Sorry don't know the short version yet.). > >"Nikki'g gene scan shows the dystrophy complex to be very much in the >classic mode." > >"I believe that our gene techs can have the retrovirus personlized for Nikki >in about a week." > >And somewhere else they mention that it is more expensive because it is >rare. > >LMB does it again. We seem to have some kind of weirdly parallel minds. I've just started reading a book called "Redesigning Humans: Choosing our genes, changing our future." Will report about Bujoldian aspects when I'm further into it. Louann --------________--------________-------- From RayLists at quixnet.net Thu May 1 03:06:29 2003 From: RayLists at quixnet.net (Ray Drouillard) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:06:29 -0400 Subject: OT: Maple Mead was Re: [LMB] Re: Comment on marrying young References: <20030430104747.E16157-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <188.18da480f.2be16215@aol.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20030430155336.02273be0@mail.panix.com> <3EB04959.29D493A2@microd.com> <3EB061B8.3000607@worldpath.net> Message-ID: <004a01c30f86$48493f20$ad55d943@ray1000> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Stewart" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 7:52 PM Subject: Re: OT: Maple Mead was Re: [LMB] Re: Comment on marrying young > Richard Macdonald wrote: > > > That reminds me, I made a batch of Maple/Honey mead that is now 8 months > > old > > a nice amber color, approaching drinkability and ~ 10% with plenty of > > sugar to > > go as it sits in the carboy. 10% alcohol and still quite sweet, a real > > "guerella" beverage that will sneak up and slap you upside the head. > > > > I don't even remember how long my batch sat in the carboy. I checked it > at 3 weeks, then 6 weeks, then at 3 months, I got mad, stuck it in a > closet and forgot about it. About months later I found it, checked the > measurement, got below 1.0,and said "It's done!" :) If you're really confident that it's done, just put it in some really well sealed bottles. If they don't go BOOM in the next few months, you're probably right ;-) Ray --------________--------________-------- From raye_j at yahoo.com Thu May 1 03:37:33 2003 From: raye_j at yahoo.com (Raye Johnsen) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Comment on marrying young In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030430163327.02deadd0@mail.iqcisp.com> Message-ID: <20030501023733.1108.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com> --- Louann Miller wrote:> > My experience is limited, I admit. But I have > trouble picturing someone > going into a marriage with the approach "this is > just practice, it doesn't > really count." Actually, I read a newspaper article that stated that a lot of youthful marriages seemed to be made under that attitude. My friends and I disagreed and I still do. I don't think *anyone* goes into marriage thinking it's a 'practice', but I do think that a lot of people do take some comfort in the idea of divorce, in the same way that people take comfort in knowing where the parachutes are. And while I personally would rather stay on the ground than pick a co-pilot who would make me want to don that parachute, and indeed have made that choice, there are others more trusting than I. Raye ===== raye_j at yahoo.com livejournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/windtear http://www.thejohnsens.com/index.html "It means, I'm in charge... where are you going?" - C-3PO (to R2D2), 'Star Wars: Attack of the Clones' __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From otherlois at yahoo.com Thu May 1 03:40:26 2003 From: otherlois at yahoo.com (Lois Aleta Fundis) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Gene Therapy, "vat milk", and ear infections In-Reply-To: <00b101c30f6e$c94271e0$d18dd70c@MainComputer> Message-ID: <20030501024026.72479.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> --- Countryboy wrote: > There was an article in my Analog magazine called > "Personalized Drugs" by > Kyle Kirkland. It talks about the future of > pharmocology when we are able > to use DNA testing to determine the effects of genes > on drug prescription. I was going to refer to this article last night, and then my browser froze. But it occured to me during the breastfeeding/milk production thread that perhaps similar technology could produce some of the special elements or immunities in artificially-made milk that would make it as nutritious as natural mother's milk. I'm still not sure the idea of vats at home makes sense, though. I think there would be some economies of scale in having large commercial milk factories. Similar to the fact that most people don't keep their own cows anymore. Maybe rich people would have more specialized designer milk and poor folks would buy it at the store like everything else, except for the very poor and the "back to nature" types who would still breastfeed. And by the way, of all my nieces and nephews, the one who had the most problems with ear infections is the one who *was* breastfed! ===== Lois Fundis ("the other Lois") otherlois at yahoo.com visit my blog -- http://auntlowey.blogspot.com "I didn't vote for him." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Thu May 1 04:31:19 2003 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:31:19 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Terror in Science-Fiction and the Fantastic Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030430232907.00a341f0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Just in case Lois has fired anyone to emulation... Jerrie Title: Terror in Science-Fiction and the Fantastic Deadline: 2003-12-31 Description: The next issue of Belphegor - the international e-journal on popular literature and media culture - will focus on terror as theme and strategy in science-fiction and the fantastic, on the status of these genres, and on the relationship between the two. Contributions can deal with the study of terror within science-fiction and related literatures, they can comment on the fear of science-fiction amongst some readers, researchers or critics, or can focus on ways and means to escape from this scary logic in academic criticism. Finally, they can deal with the classification / declassification / reclassification of the literary genres in which terror plays a role, within the literary domain and within contemporary media culture. Contact: frigerio at dal.ca URL: www.dal.ca/~etc/belphegor/vol2_no2/articles/02_02_Appel_03_01_en.html Announcement ID: 133509 http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/announce/show.cgi?ID=133509 --------________--------________-------- From russellmartens at hotmail.com Thu May 1 04:58:08 2003 From: russellmartens at hotmail.com (Russell Martens) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:58:08 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Comment on marrying young [OT] References: <188.18da480f.2be16215@aol.com> <00b201c30f64$5ed269a0$eb24d943@ray1000> Message-ID: > Still, some people make it work from a young age. My wife and I met at ages 19 and 20 respectively. We met in late October. Went on our first (half of) date in mid December and then were separated by family vacations until January 9th. I proposed on the 11th. Inexplicably, she accepted. We're going on six years now. Part of the reason its worked may be that neither one of us was even looking to date. I was in unrequited lust with someone else and she was determined not to date at all until finishing school. She almost made it. When we decided we wanted to spend the rest of our lives together it wasn't because we were desperate to be with SOMEBODY, but because we were desperate to be with each other. If more people waited for the later instead of settling for the former... Ah well. I'll get off my soap box now. Russell --------________--------________-------- From ndrosen at erols.com Thu May 1 05:01:49 2003 From: ndrosen at erols.com (Nicholas Rosen) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 00:01:49 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: I passed the program (OT:) Message-ID: <013a01c30f96$6a802580$fd382c42@oemcomputer> Ray Drouillard wrote: > Hey, just don't grant any patents on hyperlinking or e-commerce or e-surveys > or anything like that, OK? ;-) Ulp. Better not tell Ray that I work in the e-commerce Art Unit. > By the way, I have some plans for this really neat perpetual motion machine. Great! It probably won't land on my desk, but please send in the application. Just remember to include a working model. And thanks to everyone who has sent me congratulations. Regards, Nicholas Rosen --------________--------________-------- From theneals at xtra.co.nz Thu May 1 09:58:13 2003 From: theneals at xtra.co.nz (Anita Neal) Date: 01 May 2003 20:58:13 +1200 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ear infections In-Reply-To: <4751119.1051727097363.JavaMail.adamek@mac.com> References: <4751119.1051727097363.JavaMail.adamek@mac.com> Message-ID: <1051779490.991.3.camel@orac> On Thu, 2003-05-01 at 06:24, Adam Ek wrote: > On Wednesday, April 30, 2003, at 09:57AM, wrote: > > >I'm curious (never having had children, and not having been breast-fed > >myself) about whether it is the fact that baby has to work a little harder to > >get breast milk, thereby developing muscles in palate and throat or whatever > >that keeps off the ear infections, or the antibodies in the milk itself? If > >it's the Immunoglobulins, they could be added to artificial milk; if it's the > >exercise, bottles could be made harder to suck from. > > It's the antibodies to some extent. Mom gets exposed to something. Her body produces antibodies. Baby gets an extra dose of those antibodies, hopefully heading off an infection. > It's also commonly noised in these parts that the breast gives a better 'fit' to the baby's mouth than an artificial teat, thus preventing milk entering the eustatian (?) canal which runs from the back of the throat to the ear. The advice given hereabouts is to make sure bottle-fed babies are well propped up to prevent milk entering the canal and possibly causing an infection. -- Anita Neal --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Thu May 1 13:29:44 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 07:29:44 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Paladin of Souls Galley Auction Opening Soon Message-ID: <20030501122944.GA20592@fireopal.org> Or maybe already, by the time you read this message. Auction will begin today, 1 May 2003 at 10:00AM CDT. The opening bid will be from the auctioneer for $20. The auction will close in exactly one week - 8 May 2003 at 10:00AM CDT. Dutch Auction - top three bidders will each get a copy. Minimum increment will be $1. If the bidding get high enough, the auctioneer reserves the right to raise the minimum increment on six hours notice (but he probably won't, unless they go for REALLY outrageous amounts). There will be a public auction history - this will list your e-mail address or preferred alias, bid, and bid time-stamp (time-stamp will be the _received_ time by fireopal.org). Updates will be posted to a web page (I'll get the URL out no later than 12:30PM 1 May 2003) as frequently as possible. The list will get an update approximately twice a day - this update will consist of the current top three bids. The web page will also include a list for the read-and-sign-and-mail copy. The list will include e-mail address - or stated alias - and country/state of all participants. If you wish to be included, please send me your dead tree address, and preferred listing form. Any questions, please feel free to ask! -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Thu May 1 14:24:12 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 09:24:12 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2324 - 9 msgs Message-ID: In a message dated 5/1/2003 7:03:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > If you're really confident that it's done, just put it in some really well > sealed bottles. If they don't go BOOM in the next few months, you're > probably right ;-) This reminds me of a funny incident in my past--we made some wine, and it turned out to be really good--so we bottled it and my husband took it to work and passed bottles around to his friends and colleagues--this was on a Friday afternoon, and most people simply stuck it in their desk drawers, and quite a few of them forgot to take it home. Well, it went BOOM over the weekend, and the legal and executive wings of his company smelled like wine for months. Mary --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Thu May 1 14:48:22 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 09:48:22 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Early marriage Message-ID: <35.374c1444.2be27fa6@aol.com> In a message dated 5/1/2003 7:03:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > We're going on six years now. Part of the reason its worked may be that > neither one of us was even looking to date. I was in unrequited lust with > someone else and she was determined not to date at all until finishing > school. She almost made it. Let us know when you reach 30 years or so--actually, congratulations. As long as you have learned to argue _constructively_ (stick to the point you're actually arguing about, don't say "You always____ " or "You never_____," don't get personal with your insults, and most important, just tell the person how their conduct makes you feel) you'll probably make it to then. Mary --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Thu May 1 14:27:25 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 07:27:25 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Re: Comment on marrying young OT: References: <20030501023733.1108.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000701c30fe5$694d31e0$7a8171cf@puter> Adding the OT: tag too long after it, ah, shoulda been.... Raye Johnsen points out: > I do think that a lot of people do take some comfort in the idea of divorce, in the same way that people take comfort in knowing where the parachutes are. < Don't leave out the parents in this, who may very well quite approve of The College Romance, but do not feel that the young couple is anywhere near ready to decide that This Is It yet. ~ Kay --------________--------________-------- From carosue at centurytel.net Thu May 1 15:38:39 2003 From: carosue at centurytel.net (House of Unruly Fish) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 08:38:39 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Paladin of Souls Bound Galleys Auction Update In-Reply-To: <20030430233455.GA14693@fireopal.org> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030427230153.00bc76f8@mail.so.centurytel.net> <20030428003331.GC19743@fireopal.org> <5.2.1.1.2.20030427230153.00bc76f8@mail.so.centurytel.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030501083656.00bace38@mail.so.centurytel.net> Hi Scott, and all! I had a question pop into my mind...is this auction for just THIS list, or the Baen list and LordV? More the merrier as far as I am concerned, but whatever Lois thinks is best. I was just wondering.... Susan the Neon Nurse ++++++++++++++++++++++carosue at centurytel.net+++++++++++++++++++++ --------________--------________-------- From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Thu May 1 17:16:25 2003 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 12:16:25 -0400 Subject: [LMB] listie gathering at Atlanta RenFest this Saturday? Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030501120853.00a06910@pop3.norton.antivirus> Richard Macdonald says he and his lovely spouse will celebrate their anniversary at the Renaissance Festival south of Atlanta this Saturday and might like to meet some listies there. Richard, we'd love to meet & hang out with you guys. If I have anything to say about it [I *heard* that, Meg! ;)], we'll be outside the gate before it opens, so that might be a good time to meet up. If nothing else, we should be at the pub for the singalong at 5:30; maybe we could do dinner afterwards? Ann Neff says she and her son are working at the shop next door to the bird show; her son is still as en-raptor-ed with them as ever. Dawn Benton went last week, so I'm not sure who else list-ish will be there. How can we spot each other in the crowd? Will you guys be in garb? Not that that'd help overmuch, given the venue. :) If you can get to Robert Parks' pictures from Trinoc Con last year, of the two fried & tired chicks sitting on the couch, I'm the short, wide one sitting next to the tall, blond, skinny one. Alternatively, if you're interested in meeting up, let me know, & I'll be sure to wear the lovely blue & white Chalion shirt Robert Parks designed; it's pretty findable in a crowd. We'd love to see y'all there! Jerrie --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Thu May 1 17:38:30 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 09:38:30 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: Early marriage OT: In-Reply-To: <18b.196a4257.2be19913@aol.com> References: <18b.196a4257.2be19913@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EB14D86.6090805@lvhot.org> CatMtn at aol.com wrote: > A good marriage takes a lot of work--besides, there is a really > great period in life between school and marriage in which you > get to be selfish and do everything (within reason) to please > yourself. You grow out of it eventually, but it's fun while it > lasts. Mary Heh. Always glad to hear that I'm not growing up. 2 decades of selfishness and counting. :) No responsibility on the horizon, the automatic avoidance system appears to be functioning correctly. Robert "The best part about kids...is giving them back to their parents" --------________--------________-------- From pam at gotcher.us Thu May 1 17:57:40 2003 From: pam at gotcher.us (Pam) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 11:57:40 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Paladin of Souls Galley Auction Opening Soon References: <20030501122944.GA20592@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <044601c31002$c6d60680$6c3a0144@Laptop> scott, where do we go to bid? Pam ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Raun To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 7:29 AM Subject: [LMB] Paladin of Souls Galley Auction Opening Soon Or maybe already, by the time you read this message. Auction will begin today, 1 May 2003 at 10:00AM CDT. The opening bid will be from the auctioneer for $20. The auction will close in exactly one week - 8 May 2003 at 10:00AM CDT. Dutch Auction - top three bidders will each get a copy. Minimum increment will be $1. If the bidding get high enough, the auctioneer reserves the right to raise the minimum increment on six hours notice (but he probably won't, unless they go for REALLY outrageous amounts). There will be a public auction history - this will list your e-mail address or preferred alias, bid, and bid time-stamp (time-stamp will be the _received_ time by fireopal.org). Updates will be posted to a web page (I'll get the URL out no later than 12:30PM 1 May 2003) as frequently as possible. The list will get an update approximately twice a day - this update will consist of the current top three bids. The web page will also include a list for the read-and-sign-and-mail copy. The list will include e-mail address - or stated alias - and country/state of all participants. If you wish to be included, please send me your dead tree address, and preferred listing form. Any questions, please feel free to ask! -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org -- Lois-Bujold mailing list Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold --------________--------________-------- From kevink45 at hotmail.com Thu May 1 18:08:27 2003 From: kevink45 at hotmail.com (Kevin Kennedy) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 13:08:27 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: I'm back Message-ID: Well, I had to drop out of reading the list last spring. My second job fizzled, and my income dropped to the point that I had a choice between paying for internet access and groceries (and a book or two). I've gotten organized enough to get into the habit of using the public terminal at the library, so I'll see if I can keep up. For new listmembers, I'm Kevin, from Indianapolis Indiana, and female, which startles some people when I first meet them. I'm 40ish with a birthday coming up May 14(who's the Birthday Tixie now?) I'd look harder for a replacement job, but I've been trying to use the extra time to catch up on things that are too easy to put off. There are things I haven't finished sorting out from when my mom died several years ago. Anyone who's had the same job knows how that goes-I still need sort through some boxes of old photos and holiday decorations and see if I need to keep anything or pitch it. Some of it I'd need to clear with my sister to see if she wants any of it or to save it for her kids. And of course all this reorganizing seems to come in last after cooking/laundry/life in general. I have a new nephew! Max arrived 14 months ago and is much loved by all the family. He's the first child of my youngest stepbrother(I have 3) and his wife. My sister's kids Sarah(16) and Bert(14) are still doing pretty well, except Bert's grades could be better. I've just finished my new hardcover copy of _Sorcery and Cecelia_ and enjoyed it greatly. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From Cathal1950 at aol.com Thu May 1 18:13:40 2003 From: Cathal1950 at aol.com (Cathal1950 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:13:40 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Gene Therapy/Individualized Prescriptions Message-ID: <19a.1441ab0e.2be2afc4@aol.com> I took the year long clinical pharmacology course at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, MD, last year. (It's free but 6:30-8:30 PM every week gets to be a drag) There is a not unreasonably baroque test book with expanded lectures available. I was relieved and happy to see that the first 8 lectures were material I knew and used as a 1/2 tuition pharacology/physiolgy course assistant in med school BUT the rest was wonderfully new. One of the lecturers said he though that within ten years we would all have pocket electronic data cards that would list our particular gene/enzyme replication data so M.D.s could calculate drug dosages/interactions. (I doubt it -- seems too fast) Right now we know there are "fast metabolizers; and "slow metabolizers" of some drugs and we have a vague idea of ethnic distribution. (I understand that in French Psycho hospitals everyone is given a dose of debrisoquine (somewhat like dextromethorphan cough syrup) and the 24 hour urine excretion is measured to get an idea of P450 status. I've never been able to get anyone here interested in it. If anyone is interested, there is a website with up-to-date info on the P450 system maintained by Dr. Flockhhart at Indiana U (used to be a Georgetown U) http://medicine.iupui.edu/flockhart/ for this and to order (no longer free) plastic cards with the 2003 data. P450 is the ribosome/enzyme/metaboic system through which many important drugs are metabolized. Johns Hopkins has or had a site for antibiotic info I can't find the reference to right now. I'm on the hospital medicaiton consultation team. It's an art, not a science. At this moment metabolism of quite a few medications is the most we have to work with concretely. If you check the PDR you will see, in meds coming on line now results of interactions with some other likely medications. They also give information on renally impaired patients and similar things. And, if you are luck the metabolic pathways, the site of action, the steady state data and on an on. I spend a lot of itme in the PDR andcalling the drug companies to send me the data they have which they can send to physicians on request, only. The PDR only has what the FDA says must be in the' package insert". by no means the data available. So far we only have human 'expert systems' and I value very much my gift for this (my college chemistry teachers would RFL if they were still around - this is not what makes an expert system) Patients often say, "Don't experiment on me" (And around here mention the Tuskegee thing) but every time you take a medication it's an experiment. Start low, go slow, is the base (I'm not talking aobur antibiotics) A great deal of use if "Off Label" because there are and will not be studies for many things. Proteomics may really advance all this. Gene therapy per se is about inserting genes that someone doesn't have or has erroneous copies. That's pretty exotic. Tailoring you common drugs to you own use isn't so complicated, given the funds for the testing. Funny, when I started medical school I had the weird idea I was going to learn about individual differences, which I had already seen as an X-ray tech. Leada engano as one says in Port.. It's all population studies and untill recently the populations were the equivalent of the 1st year psychology students a lot of psych studies are based on. (Not even women!) It is fascinating stuff and to me, fun. Julian In a message dated 4/30/2003 4:55:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > Subject: [LMB] Gene Therapy > Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:18:19 -0500 > On a lighter note. > There was an article in my Analog magazine called "Personalized Drugs" by > Kyle Kirkland. It talks about the future of pharmocology when we are able > to use DNA testing to determine the effects of genes on drug prescription. > --------________--------________-------- From pam at gotcher.us Thu May 1 18:19:56 2003 From: pam at gotcher.us (Pam) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 12:19:56 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: I'm back References: Message-ID: <045e01c31005$e33b96c0$6c3a0144@Laptop> Welcome back, Kevin! Hope you can keep up I understand about the Mom stuff - I keep promising myself tha tI'll make some scrapbooks for my brother and me, but the photos keep sitting around in a brown paper bag... And it will be 2 years in another month or so. Pam ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Kennedy To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 12:08 PM Subject: [LMB] OT: I'm back Well, I had to drop out of reading the list last spring. My second job fizzled, and my income dropped to the point that I had a choice between paying for internet access and groceries (and a book or two). I've gotten organized enough to get into the habit of using the public terminal at the library, so I'll see if I can keep up. For new listmembers, I'm Kevin, from Indianapolis Indiana, and female, which startles some people when I first meet them. I'm 40ish with a birthday coming up May 14(who's the Birthday Tixie now?) I'd look harder for a replacement job, but I've been trying to use the extra time to catch up on things that are too easy to put off. There are things I haven't finished sorting out from when my mom died several years ago. Anyone who's had the same job knows how that goes-I still need sort through some boxes of old photos and holiday decorations and see if I need to keep anything or pitch it. Some of it I'd need to clear with my sister to see if she wants any of it or to save it for her kids. And of course all this reorganizing seems to come in last after cooking/laundry/life in general. I have a new nephew! Max arrived 14 months ago and is much loved by all the family. He's the first child of my youngest stepbrother(I have 3) and his wife. My sister's kids Sarah(16) and Bert(14) are still doing pretty well, except Bert's grades could be better. I've just finished my new hardcover copy of _Sorcery and Cecelia_ and enjoyed it greatly. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- Lois-Bujold mailing list Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold --------________--------________-------- From rgmolpus at sff.net Thu May 1 18:43:09 2003 From: rgmolpus at sff.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 12:43:09 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Oddball LMB Reference In-Reply-To: <045e01c31005$e33b96c0$6c3a0144@Laptop> Message-ID: Folks: I was reading "The Volokh Conspiracy" - a Legal blog, when I ran across this: http://volokh.blogspot.com/ [Eugene Volokh, 6:08 AM] MAPS: So here's one thing that bugs me about some fantasy and science fiction books -- if you're creating a whole new world (or using little-known parts of the old one), and you're going to be talking about the heroes voyaging here and traveling there, and about why the war needs to be fought between Beeblebrox and Trantor, because otherwise the Barrayarans would intervene, why not include a map? Sure, this isn't the most important thing. Sure, the characters and the dialogue are more significant. Sure, some readers will figure it out just from the prose. But sometimes it can make things a lot clearer, and make it a lot easier for the reader to get into things (which is why some books do indeed include such maps). And how hard can it be? Mr. Volok is a SF/Fantasy reader, and had been commenting on the lack of maps in many "classic" SF/Fantasy works - downstream of this remark he talks about owning Karen Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-earth and The Dictionary of Imaginary Places. OK, who's going to officially invite him to this list? Richard Molpus --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Thu May 1 18:48:54 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 10:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Nicholas & Franz In-Reply-To: <200305011102.h41B24r5006978@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Nicholas, congratulations on achieving this goal. I know you have looked forward to it on the list, and it sounds as if you have just the right sense of humor to handle the job. Franz, Although you were handicapped by the telephone in your interview, your voice and good sense shone through. South African Revenue Service is lucky to have you. Your voice projects your smile in response to some of the questions, it gets warmer in a nice way. Well done. Susan in Seattle --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Thu May 1 19:25:37 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:25:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Paladin of Souls Bound Galleys Auction Update In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030501083656.00bace38@mail.so.centurytel.net> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030427230153.00bc76f8@mail.so.centurytel.net> <20030428003331.GC19743@fireopal.org> <5.2.1.1.2.20030427230153.00bc76f8@mail.so.centurytel.net> <5.2.1.1.2.20030501083656.00bace38@mail.so.centurytel.net> Message-ID: <20030501182537.GA27097@fireopal.org> On Thu, May 01, 2003 at 08:38:39AM -0600, House of Unruly Fish wrote: > I had a question pop into my mind...is this auction for just THIS list, or > the Baen list and LordV? More the merrier as far as I am concerned, but > whatever Lois thinks is best. I was just wondering.... My personal inclination is to say it's for _us_. Now, if the LordV people or barflies wanted to come join us for a week... -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Thu May 1 19:27:50 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:27:50 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Paladin of Souls Galley Auction Opening Soon In-Reply-To: <044601c31002$c6d60680$6c3a0144@Laptop> References: <20030501122944.GA20592@fireopal.org> <044601c31002$c6d60680$6c3a0144@Laptop> Message-ID: <20030501182750.GB27097@fireopal.org> On Thu, May 01, 2003 at 11:57:40AM -0500, Pam wrote: > scott, where do we go to bid? I'm processing bids manually - e-mail them directly to sraun at fireopal.org. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Thu May 1 19:33:11 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:33:11 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Paladin of Souls Auction Update - 5/1/03 @ 1:30PM CDT Message-ID: <20030501183311.GC27097@fireopal.org> Current top bids: carosue at centurytel.net $40 5/1, 10:00AM sraun at fireopal.org $20 5/1, 10:00AM Please submit bids directly to sraun at fireopal.org. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From bhurt at spnz.org Thu May 1 19:43:07 2003 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:43:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] Oddball LMB Reference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Responding to the comments in the blog... The only Lois book I know of that would be helped by a map is the Vor Game, which (IIRC) comes with one. Now for a bitch of my own: fiction that *needs* maps, and uses them in place of lucid descriptions in the text of everything you need. Take tVG as an example- the map is there, but it's a delightfull book, and full understandable without the map. And that was Lois' foray into what I think of as "hard military fiction", where the motions of forces over the terrain was an import element of the plot. Most of the rest of Lois' books don't have maps and don't need them. Where is the heat transfer station in relationship to the main dome in Komarr? Who cares? What is important about the heat transfer station was that it was out in the boondocks where people didn't go, and thus could be used for clandenstine operations. What was important to the plot about the station wasn't it's physical location, but other attributes. Which, I think, is the challenge. Maps are nice, but they shouldn't be *necessary*. If your story doesn't make sense without referencing a map, there is something deeply wrong with your story. Heck, even more strongly military fiction can work just fine without maps. John Ringo's "Gust Front" is an example (and, IMHO, one of the better straight military fictions I've read- if you Clancy and Harold Coyle, check the series out). All you need to know comming in is that Fredicksburg is south of Washington DC. Everything else that's important is explained in the text. Brian On Thu, 1 May 2003, Richard Molpus wrote: > Folks: > > I was reading "The Volokh Conspiracy" - a Legal blog, when I > ran across this: > > http://volokh.blogspot.com/ > > [Eugene Volokh, 6:08 AM] > MAPS: So here's one thing that bugs me about some fantasy and science > fiction books -- if you're creating a whole new world (or using > little-known parts of the old one), and you're going to be talking > about the heroes voyaging here and traveling there, and about why the > war needs to be fought between Beeblebrox and Trantor, because > otherwise the Barrayarans would intervene, why not include a map? > Sure, this isn't the most important thing. Sure, the characters and > the dialogue are more significant. Sure, some readers will figure it > out just from the prose. But sometimes it can make things a lot > clearer, and make it a lot easier for the reader to get into things > (which is why some books do indeed include such maps). And how hard > can it be? > > > Mr. Volok is a SF/Fantasy reader, and had been commenting on the lack > of maps in many "classic" SF/Fantasy works - downstream of this > remark he talks about owning Karen Fonstad's The Atlas of > Middle-earth and The Dictionary of Imaginary Places. > > OK, who's going to officially invite him to this list? > > Richard Molpus > --------________--------________-------- From pam at gotcher.us Thu May 1 20:24:02 2003 From: pam at gotcher.us (pam) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:24:02 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Paladin of Souls Galley Auction Opening Soon In-Reply-To: <20030501182750.GB27097@fireopal.org> References: <20030501122944.GA20592@fireopal.org> <044601c31002$c6d60680$6c3a0144@Laptop> <20030501182750.GB27097@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <20030501192402.M46069@gotcher.us> Thanks, Scott. Pam ---------- Original Message ----------- From: Scott Raun To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Sent: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:27:50 -0500 Subject: Re: [LMB] Paladin of Souls Galley Auction Opening Soon > On Thu, May 01, 2003 at 11:57:40AM -0500, Pam wrote: > > scott, where do we go to bid? > > I'm processing bids manually - e-mail them directly to sraun at fireopal.org. > > -- > Scott Raun > sraun at fireopal.org > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold ------- End of Original Message ------- --------________--------________-------- From pam at gotcher.us Thu May 1 20:25:01 2003 From: pam at gotcher.us (pam) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:25:01 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Paladin of Souls Auction Update - 5/1/03 @ 1:30PM CDT In-Reply-To: <20030501183311.GC27097@fireopal.org> References: <20030501183311.GC27097@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <20030501192501.M79986@gotcher.us> $45 ---------- Original Message ----------- From: Scott Raun To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Sent: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:33:11 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Paladin of Souls Auction Update - 5/1/03 at 1:30PM CDT > Current top bids: > > carosue at centurytel.net $40 5/1, 10:00AM > sraun at fireopal.org $20 5/1, 10:00AM > > Please submit bids directly to sraun at fireopal.org. > > -- > Scott Raun > sraun at fireopal.org > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold ------- End of Original Message ------- --------________--------________-------- From pam at gotcher.us Thu May 1 20:28:54 2003 From: pam at gotcher.us (pam) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:28:54 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Paladin of Souls Auction Update - 5/1/03 @ 1:30PM CDT In-Reply-To: <20030501192501.M79986@gotcher.us> References: <20030501183311.GC27097@fireopal.org> <20030501192501.M79986@gotcher.us> Message-ID: <20030501192854.M48501@gotcher.us> Sorry, that was supposed to go private to Scott. Pam ---------- Original Message ----------- From: "pam" To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Sent: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:25:01 -0500 Subject: Re: [LMB] Paladin of Souls Auction Update - 5/1/03 at 1:30PM CDT > $45 > > ---------- Original Message ----------- > From: Scott Raun > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Sent: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:33:11 -0500 > Subject: [LMB] Paladin of Souls Auction Update - 5/1/03 at 1:30PM CDT > > > Current top bids: > > > > carosue at centurytel.net $40 5/1, 10:00AM > > sraun at fireopal.org $20 5/1, 10:00AM > > > > Please submit bids directly to sraun at fireopal.org. > > > > -- > > Scott Raun > > sraun at fireopal.org > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > ------- End of Original Message ------- > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold ------- End of Original Message ------- --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Thu May 1 21:11:54 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 08:11:54 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Oddball LMB Reference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The only Lois book I know of that would be helped by a map is the Vor > Game, which (IIRC) comes with one. Now for a bitch of my own: fiction > that *needs* maps, and uses them in place of lucid descriptions in the > text of everything you need. Take tVG as an example- the map is there, > but it's a delightfull book, and full understandable without the map. I would have really appreciated one for Barrayar, I had trouble picturing where the lines were drawn and what issues they had getting into the capital. While that could be said to be a reflection of fog of war, I found it a little annoying. > Which, I think, is the challenge. Maps are nice, but they shouldn't be > *necessary*. If your story doesn't make sense without referencing a map, > there is something deeply wrong with your story. Different people work in different ways. I know a number of people who like to trace the story along a map and it helps them keep track of what is going on, other hate to see maps in books and never use them. My theory is that if a map is there, people who want them have them, those who don't want them do not have to refer to it. Both positions win. For me I don't look at maps often but I know in L E Modesitt Jr's books I refer to the map quite often as his conflict spans the continents and it helps to have frames of reference. Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Thu May 1 21:35:30 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: Maps in fantasy and SF worldbuilding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030501132442.Y60432-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Fri, 2 May 2003, Mandos wrote: > > Which, I think, is the challenge. Maps are nice, but they shouldn't be > > *necessary*. If your story doesn't make sense without referencing a map, > > there is something deeply wrong with your story. > > Different people work in different ways. I know a number of people who like > to trace the story along a map and it helps them keep track of what is going > on, other hate to see maps in books and never use them. > > My theory is that if a map is there, people who want them have them, those > who don't want them do not have to refer to it. Both positions win. I agree, but as a writer... I can't draw maps for shite. In both my fanfic and my original work I have a very hazy idea of where things are; my characters seem to know, but I couldn't show you. In order to provide a map, a writer needs to have someone who is willing to work with them. I'm good at reading maps but...not at understanding how a planet works. For Ataniell Cycle, my original stuff, I had someone who said that they would sit down with me and talk to me about the planetology and the orbits and the maps, and we had two conversations, and then they just never got around to it again. I have always sucked at things like geography and geology and I remember when I would try and draw maps for my games (D&D, Arduin Grimoire) and the players would look at them and laugh and say, if you want that kind of weather here, you can't have a mountain range there, because of the way this is here and there, that place there should be a desert...it doesn't work like that. I felt very embarrassed and now I don't even want to try to draw maps without advice from someone who understands these things. :( I'm good at writing stories. I'm good at writing occult fiction and space opera. But weather patterns and plate tectonics are a bit beyond me...so I haven't drawn maps since. Because if a published writer does so, chances are, if there are those kinds of mistakes, someone will point them out (and probably not too politely). So... I sort of know the basic outline of where things are on Khadisja, the main world of the Ataniell Cycle, and on Shiratori. I know that the Vanarijan islands are north of the Siavarlath islands because Vanarijan is colder. I know that Jardith is on some kind of bay because the summer weather is like N'Orleans and the winter weather like SF, and because they have docks. I know that Devezin is built into the side of a cliff and that Dalai is very tropical, and that Korravai is cold and mountainous with hot springs, and I sort of know what's next to what. But I'm afraid if I draw it the way it looks in my head I'll be laughed at. And fanfic-wise, I have a vague idea that Malfoy Manor is near Tintagel, and that the Macnairs and MacGonagalls are cousins and live in Scotland, and that the Mulcibers lived in Hong Kong before the Japanese occupation. But you can't get much more out of me than that. :/ ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From countryboy66 at mchsi.com Thu May 1 22:11:27 2003 From: countryboy66 at mchsi.com (Countryboy) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 16:11:27 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: I'm back References: Message-ID: <005401c31026$3ad40140$d18dd70c@MainComputer> Welcome back. I'm new to the list, but I come from over by Indianapolis. Now I live in southern Illinois. Countryboy (Allen) - always glad to find someone from home. --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Thu May 1 22:50:57 2003 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 16:50:57 -0500 Subject: [LMB] the auction, and a note on maps Message-ID: <003701c3102b$cf939660$0500000a@oemcomputer> Hiya -- I'd figured the auction to be a listee-only thing. Anyone else can just go to eBay. Re: fantasy maps: if a tale is set in the real world, people can go to atlases and the like if they really want to know. With a made-up fantasy world, unless the author supplies something, the reader is pretty much up a tree. There are people who sneer at books with maps, but I think they're just looking for a pretext to sneer. _Paladin of Souls_ is slated to have a map, by the by, or perhaps even two, though they didn't get in to the bound galleys. The first is the same as the one up on the website; the second is a closer-up view, for people with aging eyes like mine. Ta, L. --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Thu May 1 23:04:14 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 17:04:14 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: I'm back In-Reply-To: <005401c31026$3ad40140$d18dd70c@MainComputer> Message-ID: <3EB1538E.25319.2C29020@localhost> Countryboy wrote: > Welcome back. I'm new to the list, but I come from over by > Indianapolis. Now I live in southern Illinois. Whereabouts? I live in Edwardsville (which barely qualifies as southern, but we do have a campus of SIU here). Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From cally_perry at hotmail.com Thu May 1 23:12:37 2003 From: cally_perry at hotmail.com (Cally Perry) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 18:12:37 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Bid for Paladin of Souls Message-ID: $50 Cally Perry cally at mail.com _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --------________--------________-------- From countryboy66 at mchsi.com Thu May 1 23:20:14 2003 From: countryboy66 at mchsi.com (Countryboy) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 17:20:14 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: I'm back References: <3EB1538E.25319.2C29020@localhost> Message-ID: <006001c3102f$d68b3320$d18dd70c@MainComputer> I live in Robinson. About an hour south of Terre Haute. Countryboy (Allen) - thinking at some point he may get to meet some of the listees. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 5:04 PM Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: I'm back > Countryboy wrote: > > > Welcome back. I'm new to the list, but I come from over by > > Indianapolis. Now I live in southern Illinois. > > Whereabouts? I live in Edwardsville (which barely qualifies as > southern, but we do have a campus of SIU here). > > Jim Parish > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > --------________--------________-------- From theneals at xtra.co.nz Thu May 1 23:34:06 2003 From: theneals at xtra.co.nz (Anita Neal) Date: 02 May 2003 10:34:06 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: Early marriage In-Reply-To: <35.374c1444.2be27fa6@aol.com> References: <35.374c1444.2be27fa6@aol.com> Message-ID: <1051828443.1000.4.camel@orac> On Fri, 2003-05-02 at 01:48, CatMtn at aol.com wrote: > Let us know when you reach 30 years or so--actually, congratulations. As > long as you have learned to argue _constructively_ (stick to the point you're > actually arguing about, don't say "You always____ " or "You never_____," > don't get personal with your insults, and most important, just tell the > person how their conduct makes you feel) you'll probably make it to then. > Mary You know, one of the things I really, really like about the Vorkosigan books is the marriage/love affair between Aral and Cordelia. It's so nice to see a portrayal of a couple who get married and manage to stay married. Aside from Mary's comments above, what do y'all think their secret is? (Maybe I can learn!) Anita -- Anita Neal --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Thu May 1 23:33:04 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 10:33:04 +1200 Subject: [LMB] OT: Happy marriage In-Reply-To: <1051828443.1000.4.camel@orac> Message-ID: > You know, one of the things I really, really like about the Vorkosigan > books is the marriage/love affair between Aral and Cordelia. It's so > nice to see a portrayal of a couple who get married and manage to stay > married. There is an Australian movie called "The Dish" which is great in this regard, one of the main characters is the Mayor of the town and the relationship he has with his wife is really well portrayed and they are happy. A really good film as well :-) Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From kknight at epix.net Thu May 1 23:42:36 2003 From: kknight at epix.net (Katrina Knight) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 18:42:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Oddball LMB Reference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030501183547.02435d60@in.epix.net> At 02:43 PM Thursday 05/01/03 Brian Hurt wrote: >Which, I think, is the challenge. Maps are nice, but they shouldn't >be >*necessary*. If your story doesn't make sense without referencing a >map, >there is something deeply wrong with your story. I agree. I like maps when understanding the location of different places is important to understanding the events in the book. The map generally shouldn't be used in place of descriptions though and it shouldn't be *needed* to understand the story. Maps can *enhance* the writing though, and make it easier to picture what is happening. Being able to look at the map when I lose track of which places are where is a lot easier than going back through the text and looking for the references to the locations to figure it out. -- Katrina Knight kknight at epix.net --------________--------________-------- From kknight at epix.net Thu May 1 23:48:27 2003 From: kknight at epix.net (Katrina Knight) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 18:48:27 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: livejournals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030501184433.02b3a3d0@in.epix.net> At 01:29 AM Wednesday 04/23/03 Catherine OShea wrote: >I know a number of listees have livejournals >(although I can't find the posts where people >where saying what their usernames were). I'm rather behind the times here, having made the mistake of going away for a week and not reading much email while gone, but if anyone cares to read my livejournal, it is at http://www.livejournal.com/users/kk1raven . Most of what I say is 'friends only', so if you want to read it, let me know who you are and I'll add you to my list. -- Katrina Knight kknight at epix.net --------________--------________-------- From bhurt at spnz.org Fri May 2 00:08:32 2003 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 18:08:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] the auction, and a note on maps In-Reply-To: <003701c3102b$cf939660$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 2003, Lois McMaster Bujold wrote: > Re: fantasy maps: if a tale is set in the real world, people can go to > atlases and the like if they really want to know. With a made-up fantasy > world, unless the author supplies something, the reader is pretty much up a > tree. There are people who sneer at books with maps, but I think they're > just looking for a pretext to sneer. On rereading my original post, I realize that I didn't make it sufficiently clear that tVG was a *counter* example- of a story that in other hands might have needed a map to keep things straight, but that, due to skillfull story telling and description, didn't. This is, I think where the "sneer" came from- and I swear to god, it wasn't! Bad grammar and structure, that's all! It's been a long, tiring week so far. I apologize. My point was that you shouldn't *need* a map to keep track of everything. Maps are nice, and can often give a touch of ambiance to a book- an old "there be dragons here" map for a fantasy novel, or a topo map with unit markers on it for a military novel, etc. tVG is an example of *not* needing a map- despite hopping around 4 different star systems (no one ever actually visits Ceta space) and lots of different space stations, at least I never experienced a moment of vertigo, thinking "they go *which* direction?" There is a map, but if it got ripped out you could still easily read the book and keep track of what is going on. Tolkien (either the Hobbit or LoTR) is another example. I'm not thinking of a good example of what I mean, although I know I've read several. Which is another problem with my last message. Another defense I'll make is that simply being flawed- even critically flawed- doesn't mean that the book is garbage. No book is perfect (with the possible exception of "A Civil Campaign"). Take, for example, "The Cryptonomicon" by Neal Stephenson. One of my all-time favorite books, *despite* the fact that the plot is an absolute train-wreck (introducing major villians as minor characters on page 650 is not the sign of well-plotted book), and that the length cut be cut in half and improve the book. And that's as much grovelling as you're going to get. Brian --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Fri May 2 00:16:11 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 11:16:11 +1200 Subject: [LMB] the auction, and a note on maps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > tVG is an example of *not* needing a map- despite hopping around 4 > different star systems (no one ever actually visits Ceta space) and lots > of different space stations, at least I never experienced a moment of > vertigo, thinking "they go *which* direction?" There is a map, but if it > got ripped out you could still easily read the book and keep track of what > is going on. Tolkien (either the Hobbit or LoTR) is another example. Tolkien is an example on *NOT* needing a map?? Personally I had to refer to the map heaps while reading LoTR. All the cities in the big war, with half of them named in similar fashions, I found it almsot impossible to keep up with where things were and how they all related to each other. Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Fri May 2 00:33:48 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:33:48 -0700 Subject: [LMB] the auction, and a note on maps Message-ID: Mandos mandos at allowed.to Fri, 2 May 2003 11:16:11 +1200 >>tVG is an example of *not* needing a map- despite hopping around 4 >different star systems (no one ever actually visits Ceta space) and lots of >different space stations, at least I never experienced a moment of vertigo, >thinking "they go *which* direction?" There is a map, but if it got ripped >out you could still easily read the book and keep track of what is going >on. Tolkien (either the Hobbit or LoTR) is another example.<< >Personally I had to refer to the map heaps while reading LoTR. All the cities in the big war, with half of them named in similar fashions, I found it almsot impossible to keep up with where things were and how they all related to each other.< Hi, Mandos and all! Some people are better oriented than others. I never know where I am , so I find maps very useful. Frex, I'm reading George R.R. Martin's _A Storm of Swords_ right now and find myself often going back to the inside cover map to retrace where the various characters are going because there are numerous characters carrying out a multitude of actions in various places (highly recommended, btw). For me, a map is quite helpful if I want to orient myself geographically. Some people really *can* do it in their heads with sufficient description. I admire that capability, even if I can't do it myself (California is always on the Left and NY is always on the Right ). I do see what Brian meant, though, by some books' description being sufficient unto themselves for the reader to *feel* the place setting. If you don't have 15 plot strings to try to remember and 20 different geographical locations, that's not hard. Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From raye_j at yahoo.com Fri May 2 00:37:33 2003 From: raye_j at yahoo.com (Raye Johnsen) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 16:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] the auction, and a note on maps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030501233734.19925.qmail@web14001.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mandos wrote: > > Tolkien is an example on *NOT* needing a map?? Well, yes. All his cities are more or less the same - London sans post-Renaissance technology - so I always discount them. It's a city. There is nothing to separate Minas Tirith from Bree, except that the latter has at least one inn that has hobbit facilities. One imagines that Minas Tirith did also, shortly after the Fellowship arrived. > Personally I had to refer to the map heaps while > reading LoTR. All the > cities in the big war, with half of them named in > similar fashions, I found > it almsot impossible to keep up with where things > were and how they all > related to each other. It's the countries, not the cities, that interacted, really, and they that had the characters that needed to be kept in mind. One thing I *hated* about Tolkien's writing was the stereotypical depiction of every country. The Numemoreans were tall and brave and noble. The Gondori were dark and strong-willed but easily misled. The Rohirrim were blond and free-spirited. Where was a brunet Rohirrim? Didn't the Gondori have any librarians? Were there any Numemoreans who were (gasp) *short*? Raye ===== raye_j at yahoo.com livejournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/windtear http://www.thejohnsens.com/index.html "It means, I'm in charge... where are you going?" - C-3PO (to R2D2), 'Star Wars: Attack of the Clones' __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Fri May 2 01:34:34 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 17:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Auburn Pipeline thingee Message-ID: First, the 'gas leak in Auburn' is not in Auburn but an area that is on a hill above Pacific and some of it is in the city limits of both Auburn and Pacific in Pierce County and King County. (Confused yet?) Yes, it was about 3/4 of a mile away on the top of a ridge as the crow flies but that is not really very close. I did feel the shudder. But because it was on the top of that ridge, I didn't smell anything, and I was not evacuated, I am okay. at }->- :} Tinne ;} Laughter Heals :D -<-{ at --------________--------________-------- From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Fri May 2 01:43:33 2003 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 20:43:33 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: I'm back Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030501204305.009f43b0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Welcome back, Kevin! It's good to see you hereabouts again. Jerrie --------________--------________-------- From dhbenton at worldnet.att.net Fri May 2 02:27:36 2003 From: dhbenton at worldnet.att.net (Dawn Benton) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:27:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] listie gathering at Atlanta RenFest this Saturday? References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030501120853.00a06910@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <009101c3104a$0471d860$c2de5c0c@primepc> Unfortunately, I have to take my cat to the vet to have stitches removed and can't go to the Renn Fest this Saturday morning. Otherwise, I would be completely willing to go again to meet some fellow listies. Heck, I'm thinking of going again just for the Renn fest anyway. Of course, if you all decide to meet up later in the day, I might be able to make it. Let me know what you decide. Dawn --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Fri May 2 02:23:26 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:23:26 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2325 - 19 msgs Message-ID: <1ec.7d3782b.2be3228e@aol.com> In a message dated 5/1/2003 2:37:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > > The web page will also include a list for the read-and-sign-and-mail > copy. The list will include e-mail address - or stated alias - and > country/state of all participants. If you wish to be included, please > send me your dead tree address, and preferred listing form. Mrs. J. Downs 1209 Baux Mountain Road Germanton, NC 27019 --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Fri May 2 02:23:45 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:23:45 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2325 - 19 msgs Message-ID: <1a7.139b1215.2be322a1@aol.com> In a message dated 5/1/2003 2:37:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > > The web page will also include a list for the read-and-sign-and-mail > copy. The list will include e-mail address - or stated alias - and > country/state of all participants. If you wish to be included, please > send me your dead tree address, and preferred listing form. --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Fri May 2 02:33:21 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 20:33:21 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Auburn Pipeline thingee In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030502013321.GA30102@fireopal.org> On Thu, May 01, 2003 at 05:34:34PM -0700, Susan Profit wrote: > First, the 'gas leak in Auburn' is not in Auburn but an area that is > on a hill above Pacific and some of it is in the city limits of both > Auburn and Pacific in Pierce County and King County. (Confused yet?) > > Yes, it was about 3/4 of a mile away on the top of a ridge as the crow > flies but that is not really very close. I did feel the shudder. But > because it was on the top of that ridge, I didn't smell anything, > and I was not evacuated, I am okay. Say what? This sounds interesting - and Reuters and CNN have nothing to say about it. Any chance you have a news story pointer? -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Fri May 2 02:45:32 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:45:32 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re:OT:Cats and stitches Message-ID: <136.1e68972e.2be327bc@aol.com> In a message dated 5/1/2003 9:26:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > Unfortunately, I have to take my cat to the vet to have stitches removed and > can't go to the Renn Fest this Saturday morning. Otherwise, I would be > completely willing to go again to meet some fellow listies. Heck, I'm > thinking of going again just for the Renn fest anyway. Of course, if you > all decide to meet up later in the day, I might be able to make it. Let me > know what you decide. > Just a suggestion--My vet told me that if the cat can reach the stitches, just snip them with sterilized manicure scissors and let the cat remove them him/herself. A little Neosporin, and you're ready to go. The cats really seem to prefer it that way. And if they miss one, there's always tweezers. Of course, this might have been a special suggestion for my appropriately named Leroy Brown--- Mary --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Fri May 2 02:48:47 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:48:47 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Happy marriage Message-ID: <3a.38529587.2be3287f@aol.com> In a message dated 5/1/2003 9:26:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > You know, one of the things I really, really like about the Vorkosigan > books is the marriage/love affair between Aral and Cordelia. It's so > nice to see a portrayal of a couple who get married and manage to stay > married. Aside from Mary's comments above, what do y'all think their > secret is? (Maybe I can learn!) I forgot one of the most important rules--When you're absolutely furious, ready to walk out the door, etc., ask yourself "Am I really sure that I would be happier without my spouse, even assuming that he/she will not change?" Somehow that question always gave me the impetus to cool down enough to rethink the problem. Mary --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Fri May 2 02:55:00 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 13:55:00 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Happy marriage In-Reply-To: <3a.38529587.2be3287f@aol.com> Message-ID: > I forgot one of the most important rules--When you're absolutely furious, > ready to walk out the door, etc., ask yourself "Am I really sure > that I would be happier without my spouse, even assuming that he/she will not > change?" > Somehow that question always gave me the impetus to cool down enough to > rethink the problem. Hmmm that was the question I asked myself that gave me the impetus to leave. Still a good question despite the outcome. Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Fri May 2 02:57:49 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:57:49 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Maps Message-ID: In a message dated 5/1/2003 9:26:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Maps are good. Books that don't need maps are good. Books that don't need maps, but have them anyway are better-- Seriously, just tell people that in _your_ universe, things are different. If they want all the rules of physics to be just the same as Earth's--well, why read fantasy in the first place? After all, when was the last time you saw a mage or a Companion walking down the street, or one of Heinlein's Arachnids, or, for that matter, Taura? Anyway, if it bothers them that much, they should write their own story. Mary > I agree, but as a writer... > > I can't draw maps for shite. In both my fanfic and my original > work I have a very hazy idea of where things are; my characters > seem to know, but I couldn't show you. In order to provide a > map, a writer needs to have someone who is willing to work with > them. I'm good at reading maps but...not at understanding how a > planet works. > > For Ataniell Cycle, my original stuff, I had someone who said > that they would sit down with me and talk to me about the > planetology and the orbits and the maps, and we had two > conversations, and then they just never got around to it again. > > I have always sucked at things like geography and geology and I > remember when I would try and draw maps for my games (D&D, Arduin > Grimoire) and the players would look at them and laugh and say, > if you want that kind of weather here, you can't have a mountain > range there, because of the way this is here and there, that > place there should be a desert...it doesn't work like that. > > I felt very embarrassed and now I don't even want to try to draw > maps without advice from someone who understands these things. > :( I'm good at writing stories. I'm good at writing occult > fiction and space opera. But weather patterns and plate > tectonics are a bit beyond me...so I haven't drawn maps since. > --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Fri May 2 03:12:51 2003 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:12:51 -0500 Subject: [LMB] a note on maps Message-ID: <002a01c31050$65db3a00$0500000a@oemcomputer> Brian Hurt bhurt at spnz.org Thu, 1 May 2003 18:08:32 -0500 (CDT) On rereading my original post, I realize that I didn't make it sufficiently clear that tVG was a *counter* example- of a story that in other hands might have needed a map to keep things straight, but that, due to skillfull story telling and description, didn't. This is, I think where the "sneer" came from- and I swear to god, it wasn't! Bad grammar and structure, that's all! It's been a long, tiring week so far. I apologize. ...snip grovel And that's as much grovelling as you're going to get. Brian Actually, I wasn't refering to *your* comment at all, but to comments made in the past by forgotten posters in other newsgroups. So you can stand down... You grovel good, though. Ta, L. --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Fri May 2 04:17:58 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 23:17:58 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Ian at the Hotel Bujoldia Message-ID: <3EB1E31C.F4888A61@redmaplegrove.org> Ian had to be in TO for business this week, so he's staying at the hostel we're looking to invade at Worldcon; Here are his preliminary impressions. Sometime Sunday, he'll be negotiating with the manager for a group booking, group rate, etc. If anyone is not on the list below or thinks we probably need more info about your needs or and/or has concerns, issues (handicap access, etc, etc), can you email ian at clysdale.ca and cc me at marna at marna.ca before that? The redmaplegrove addys still work but will be going away soon. So far I have Maybes: Dan R -- maybe. Paul Stratton and one or two others. Room type unknown: Ase (alone?) Michael Bernardi -- wants extra days, and I'm not sure if you meant you'd rather take a single rather than share with non-listees for some days, or whether you just thought you had to move to one? Double or Quad to share: Robert Parks (Dan and Michael? Want to talk to Robert?) Singles: Eric Oppen -- wants a single Lois A.F. -- wants a single And from the Amoeba: Ian, Marna, Scott, Lorayne -- two doubles? One double two singles? One double two dorm beds? Benet and Amy -- maybe for one or two night, double. And there may be more from Ottawa/Toronto. Marna. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: I *looooooooooooooove* you. Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 22:55:15 -0400 (EDT) From: iclysdal at redmaplegrove.org To: marna at marna.ca I'm in Toronto, at the hostel. I think it's going to work really well for WorldCon - it's one of the nicer hostels I've stayed at, really good vibe, and less than five minutes away from the con - carrying that monster box and not really knowing where I was going, it was still less than a ten minute walk from Union Station, and other parts of the con are closer to here. And the hostel vibe in many ways is much closer to con vibe than commercial hotel vibe - I don't think that they'll be all that weirded out by us. I'll talk to them about bulk rates when I'm back on Sunday. There's a bus that leaves from the Holiday Inn next-door every twenty minutes for the airport, which is probably useful information for some of the listees coming in, and is also convenient for me, since I'm meeting Chris at the airport, where we're renting a car to drive up to Port Elgin. --------________--------________-------- From geniepat at earthlink.net Fri May 2 07:05:55 2003 From: geniepat at earthlink.net (Pat Turner) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 23:05:55 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Baycon Is Coming Message-ID: <3EB20AC3.5020507@earthlink.net> To all Northern California Bujold fans: I will be co-hosting a BoF (Birds of a Feather) group at Baycon this year for the Bujold fans. It somehow seems appropriate, since I picked up my first book (The Vor Game) at last year's con. Don't know when it will be yet: either Saturday or Sunday. When I find out, I will let the list know. Baycon will be held Memorial Day weekend at the San Jose Airport Doubletree Hotel. For info on the con, the hotel, etc., see http://www.baycon.org. Pat in NorCal --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Fri May 2 07:52:33 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 02:52:33 -0400 Subject: [LMB] re: OT: Uterine replicators References: Message-ID: <08bc01c31077$68ead940$11b71e43@LAPTOP> Where's the health hazard? I had relatives who were dairy farms with 200 dairy cows, with a barn set up for milking and hoses runing from each milking stall into a central stainless steel vat, which got steamcleaned on a regular basis, including a full kashering for kosher for Passover milk production every year. Sick cows, were segregated out and their milk was disposed of, it didn't go into the big vat. They didn't have a "serious infection hazard" with a "giant vat" of cow's milk, despite the fact that the cows went out and grazed in the field every day and came back to the barn for the afternoon/evening milking, and cows are animals which have to have their udders cleaned and sanitized before being milked, and the milking equipment has to be kept very clean, and it was the 1950s and 1960s that I saw the farm in operation.... And given that Athos, Beta, etc., have biotech far advanced from what was involved in commercial milk production 40 years ago, and that the rate of infection from "giant vats" of cows' milk is extremely low, I don't know why giant vats of vat-produced milk would be "a serious infection hazard." It's not technology to prevent/suppress infection necessary, that's any more advanced that what's been used in dairy farming, where the cows I would think are inherently much less sanitary than artificial production of milk in biotech generators would be, animals, for years and years and years now. Presumably the vat milk wouldn't involve potential fecal contamination, for example.... In the dairy farm, the milk was milkd warm out of the cows, and the giant vats it went into, were chilled which delayed the growth of bacteria and such. The milk then went to processing plants for pasteurization and processing and packaging and such. Vat milk could be produced to include bacteria-resistance enyzmes or such, and produced as sterile formula with no nasty bacteria, etc., in it to start with, and packaged under sterile conditions, into sterile containers, it wouldn't be until it got opened/used by the Father, that it became open to air -- if then-- and subject to any stray bacteria and such getting into it. -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: > Bring this back on-topic, I think it should be really obvious that giant > vats of breast-milk are a serious infection hazard. Just remember the > problems we've had with the blood supply. Even if the material is > exclusively from artificial (non-living) sources, how can you avoid > contamination on a large scale. At least formula has the liquid added and > heated only when necessary. > --------________--------________-------- From wks at worldpath.net Fri May 2 12:32:35 2003 From: wks at worldpath.net (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 07:32:35 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT:software question-AKICILF Message-ID: <3EB25753.50405@worldpath.net> I want to be able to take scanned images (assuming the same focal length) and use a program to "connect" them up, and then be able to "walk" through the result. You see, I have a set of antique postcards of the village I am living in now. I want to use those old photos and connect them up, and walk through them, doom/unreal/etc style. Can anyone help me find a program to do so? Either Windows or Linux would be prefered, but will accept mac. TIA Bill --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Fri May 2 13:31:58 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 07:31:58 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Comment on marrying young [OT] In-Reply-To: References: <188.18da480f.2be16215@aol.com> <00b201c30f64$5ed269a0$eb24d943@ray1000> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030502072924.02dfb2a0@mail.iqcisp.com> At 10:58 PM 4/30/2003 -0500, Russell Martens wrote: (re his early marriage, going strong at the six-year mark) >When we decided we wanted to spend the rest of our lives together it wasn't >because we were desperate to be with SOMEBODY, but because we were desperate >to be with each other. If more people waited for the later instead of >settling for the former... Exactly. It sounds like you jumped off from the same psychological spot as us latecomers, you just got there at a younger calendar age. Best wishes for many happy decades. I think the key, young or old, is having that understanding of who you are by yourself before trying to meld that self into a couple. Louann --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Fri May 2 13:39:11 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 07:39:11 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Early marriage In-Reply-To: <1051828443.1000.4.camel@orac> References: <35.374c1444.2be27fa6@aol.com> <35.374c1444.2be27fa6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030502073728.02def0a0@mail.iqcisp.com> At 10:34 AM 5/2/2003 +1200, Anita Neal wrote: >On Fri, 2003-05-02 at 01:48, CatMtn at aol.com wrote: > > > Let us know when you reach 30 years or so--actually, congratulations. As > > long as you have learned to argue _constructively_ (stick to the point > you're > > actually arguing about, don't say "You always____ " or "You never_____," > > don't get personal with your insults, and most important, just tell the > > person how their conduct makes you feel) you'll probably make it to then. > > Mary > >You know, one of the things I really, really like about the Vorkosigan >books is the marriage/love affair between Aral and Cordelia. It's so >nice to see a portrayal of a couple who get married and manage to stay >married. Aside from Mary's comments above, what do y'all think their >secret is? (Maybe I can learn!) I think Mark V said it best, after hearing Aral and Cordelia talking privately to each other: "oh. That's what integrity looks like. I didn't know." Louann, who finds intergrity hard work sometimes but easier than the alternatives. --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Fri May 2 14:28:36 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joy=20W.?=) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 15:28:36 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] I'm back too: OT:, MCF, and almost certainly TMI In-Reply-To: <3EB1E31C.F4888A61@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <20030502132836.91140.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, folks, sorry I've been away so long. Actually, I've been lurking for a while, but it took me some time to work myself up to actually posting again. First the good news: The wedding was wonderful, went off without a hitch (except that we did _get_ hitched, of course), and everyone had a great time. The honeymoon in Vegas was just as wonderful. Pictures at http://isabeau_wedding.tripod.com/lasvegasmain.htm if anyone should be interested. (If you're interested in wedding pictures, they're posted at Ofoto, so email me off list and I'll send you an album invitation.) Now the bad news. Two weeks after we got back from Vegas, we received a call that my best beloved friend, Becki, had passed away due to complications with her lung condition. Many of you may remember "meeting" her briefly here, when I convinced her to join the list while she was home on disability. She was supposed to be the maid of honor at my wedding, but was too ill to make it...little did we all know just how ill...we set up a speaker phone so she could call and make a toast though, and that's on our wedding video. Anyway, that's why I've been gone longer than originally planned...that and the fact that work took a sudden turn for the chaotic, and I was working a slew of overtime hours last month. I'm thinking it's time to stop lurking and participate actively in the list again...and Aaron and I are both looking forward to seeing some of you at Worldcon! Joy W (now L for Lanterman) ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Fri May 2 16:07:47 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 10:07:47 -0500 Subject: [LMB] POS Galleys Auction Update - 5/2 @ 10AM Message-ID: <20030502150747.GB2891@fireopal.org> See the current info web page at - it also has the list of who's asked to be included in the read, sign & pass along copy - http://www.fireopal.org/~sraun/lmb_pos_auction.html The three current high bids are: ndrosen at erols.com $100 5/1, 10:44PM Paul Meyer $ 60 5/1, 1:48PM Robert at WarnickeLittler.com $ 60 5/1, 7:08PM There are currently six people signed up for the read, sign & pass-along copy. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Fri May 2 16:11:02 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 08:11:02 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT:software question-AKICILF In-Reply-To: <3EB25753.50405@worldpath.net> References: <3EB25753.50405@worldpath.net> Message-ID: <3EB28A86.3080208@lvhot.org> Bill Stewart wrote: > I want to be able to take scanned images (assuming the same > focal length) and use a program to "connect" them up, and then > be able to "walk" through the result. > You see, I have a set of antique postcards of the village I am > living in now. I want to use those old photos and connect them > up, and walk through them, doom/unreal/etc style. Any slideshow program should work. I have a utility that will happily do that without you doing much more than putting the files in a single directory and configuring the program to not add the normal navigation stuff. Thotor - Windows: http://www.dominativ.com/thotor/index.html#about Contact me offlist for details or how to hand code it. Robert --------________--------________-------- From mike at dendarii.co.uk Fri May 2 20:02:12 2003 From: mike at dendarii.co.uk (Michael Bernardi) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 19:02:12 BST Subject: [LMB] Lois McMaster Bujold Mailing List Weekly FAQ FAQ Message-ID: <31864@dendarii.co.uk> Last-Modified: 5 November 2002 Version: 2.0.2 Being a Pointer to where to find Answers to Frequently Asked Questions ====================================================================== This document was compiled by Michael Bernardi, to allow subscribers to the Lois-Bujold mailing list to easily find where the FAQs are. Having this FAQ posted weekly to the list then allows the posting of the OTHER FAQs to be every two months and thus reduce list traffic. Three FAQs have been developed since this list was created in October 1994. The Bio FAQ has been deleted, as all the information previously given here, can be found at "The Bujold Nexus" in the "Author Info" and "Book Info" sections. This document was originally created in December 1998. The FAQs ======== Lois McMaster Bujold Mailing List Administrivia FAQ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_admin.html Last Updated: 29 October 2002 Explains how to join and use the Lois-Bujold mailing list, hosted at http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold Lois McMaster Bujold Mailing List FAQ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_lst.html Last Updated: 29 October 2002 This document attempts to answer Frequently Asked Questions which occur on the Mailing List about Lois McMaster Bujold and her work. These are the questions that occur on list regularly like "Where can I get "Dreamweaver's Dilemma"? Now includes the Off-topic Discussions and Excessive Quoting FAQ. Lois McMaster Bujold List PLOT Frequently Asked Questions ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_faq.html Last Updated: 29 October 2002 This document attempts to answer Frequently Asked Questions which occur on the Mailing List about Plot lines that occur in the work of Lois McMaster Bujold. This includes answers from Lois herself. The Bujold Nexus: The Lois McMaster Bujold Homepage ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.com Last Updated: 5 November 2002 This is the Official site to find information about Lois McMaster Bujold on the Web. Lois has provided some information herself, and other material has come from other fans. The Bujold Nexus Overflow Site ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Bujold.html Last Updated: 28 October 2002 This contains all the stuff that isn't really appropriate at the main site. ie fan fiction, fan art, photos, and filk. Please send details of any material such material to the address indicated. Note I am not responsible for the mail server hardware OR software. Both these are under the control of Mel Harper . Any feedback on this post cheerfully received by Michael Bernardi . -- Michael Bernardi mike_at_dendarii.co.uk --------________--------________-------- From otherlois at yahoo.com Fri May 2 20:09:47 2003 From: otherlois at yahoo.com (Lois Aleta Fundis) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 12:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Amazon.com meets Impsec Message-ID: <20030502190947.92453.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> So there I was, browsing Amazon.com because it was a slow day at the reference desk, and came across this service I'd never seen there before: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/handle-generic-form/002-2561644-3396809 Which says, "The comparison grid lives to serve." ===== Lois Fundis ("the other Lois") otherlois at yahoo.com visit my blog -- http://auntlowey.blogspot.com "I didn't vote for him." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From otherlois at yahoo.com Fri May 2 20:13:29 2003 From: otherlois at yahoo.com (Lois Aleta Fundis) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 12:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Someone should tell the Barflies about this Message-ID: <20030502191329.30041.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> The "Backspace" section (last inside page) of PC Magazine always lists items from ads or websites that don't quite compute. The last listing in the May 27 issue is from a company we all know: ===== Lois Fundis ("the other Lois") otherlois at yahoo.com visit my blog -- http://auntlowey.blogspot.com "I didn't vote for him." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From dschlunk at yahoo.com Sat May 3 00:11:28 2003 From: dschlunk at yahoo.com (Dawn Anderson) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 16:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT:[LMB] Comment on marrying young In-Reply-To: <200305011102.h41B24r5006978@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030502231128.10379.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> Louann Miller wrote:> > My experience is limited, I admit. But I have > trouble picturing someone > going into a marriage with the approach "this is > just practice, it doesn't > really count." Raye Johnsen replied: >Actually, I read a newspaper article that stated that >a lot of youthful marriages seemed to be made under >that attitude. My friends and I disagreed and I still >do. >I don't think *anyone* goes into marriage thinking >it's a 'practice', but I do think that a lot of people >do take some comfort in the idea of divorce, in the >same way that people take comfort in knowing where the >parachutes are. This thread really hooked me in, so I am delurking, and hope I don't soap box too much. I have heard more and more lately in news shows, TV, etc. about "starter marriages". I believe the term was coined by Pamela Paul, author of _The Starter Marriage and the Future of Matrimony_, inspired by the term "starter home". The book has caused a buzz. See forex http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/GoodMorningAmerica/GMA020125Feature_starter_marriage.html http://www.inq7.net/opi/2002/apr/28/opi_rjdavid-1.htm I gather starter marriages are characterized generally as involving twenty-somethings to early thirty-somethings in a failed marriage undertaken with overidealized concepts of marriage and/or without asking each other the hard questions about life goals, money issues, childrearing, housekeeping, gendered ideas of division of labor, etc. They may be quick to give up on the relationship because they are thinking half of all marriages don't make it, so move on, rather than working through it. I think there is some overgeneralization, and the term "starter marriage" makes me cringe, but I think there are some folks who qualify. I'm not saying they set out to have a learning experience and move on, but I know someone who fits the mold, and I think it was the issue of not asking the hard questions. It was incredibly painful for him (his wife initiated the divorce less than a year after the wedding), but I guess better sooner than late, and no kids. OTOH, I don't think younger folks have a monopoly on this kind of situation. Also, I agree with what others have said about knowing oneself and maturity making for better marriages, but being younger doesn't necessarily mean you don't or aren't. My parents married at the ages of 20 (dad) and 18 (mom), and I believe they were very mature, knew what they wanted, and knew they shared similar values and life goals in addition to being in love. They've had their share of rockiness in 34 years, but they both know they are going to be there in the morning to fight it out/work it out, and divorce would only a dead last resort. I thought alot about this when deciding to marry at 29. If I can add a word of advice to go with what others have offered: I believe marriage/lifetime partnership is more than *a* choice, but rather it is the ongoing act of choosing: making choices big and small that honor your mate's importance in your life. Sorry to go on so long. Back to lurking, Dawn Anderson ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Remember: no matter where you go, there you are" --Buckaroo Bonzai __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From pam at gotcher.us Sat May 3 00:41:11 2003 From: pam at gotcher.us (Pam) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 18:41:11 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Code name Ginger Message-ID: <065901c31104$508c4fe0$6c3a0144@Laptop> For those who might be interested in the "Ginger" story- the book that caused the leak is due out this month, I think.. Here's a link to the first chapter. http://harvardbusinessonline.hbsp.harvard.edu/b01/en/files/home/Ginger_Chapt er1.pdf The author is a man named Kemper. Sorta "how SF comes into reality." I found it quite interesting. Pam --------________--------________-------- From WaWenri at aol.com Sat May 3 01:10:19 2003 From: WaWenri at aol.com (WaWenri at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 20:10:19 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Comment on marrying young [OT] Message-ID: <124.2167389d.2be462eb@aol.com> Russell Martens writes: > My wife and I met at ages 19 and 20 respectively. We met in late October. > Went on our first (half of) date in mid December and then were separated by > family vacations until January 9th. I proposed on the 11th. Inexplicably, > she accepted. > > We're going on six years now. I was 24 and Gayle 27. I proposed three weeks after we met. We married six months after the first time I called to ask for a date. We never actually dated. We courted. We are exactly one month short of our 30th anniversary. Bill Wenrich --------________--------________-------- From WaWenri at aol.com Sat May 3 01:19:08 2003 From: WaWenri at aol.com (WaWenri at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 20:19:08 EDT Subject: [LMB] Books Message-ID: <124.216738a2.2be464fc@aol.com> I just read the omnibus General series, Warlord and Conqueror. Five books in one. Any comments? Bill Wenrich --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Sat May 3 03:31:26 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 21:31:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Books OT: In-Reply-To: <124.216738a2.2be464fc@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030502212350.01db3ec0@pop.east.cox.net> At 19:19 05/02/2003, WaWenri at aol.com wrote: >I just read the omnibus General series, Warlord and Conqueror. Five books in >one. Any comments? I believe the series is based on the Byzantine general, Belisarius. I enjoyed reading them when they were first published. Baen appears to be publishing a lot of stories that have gone Out of Print and reverted to the authors. Drake, of course, is writing some original stories for Baen at present, as well (the Leary series). -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From ndrosen at erols.com Sat May 3 03:58:20 2003 From: ndrosen at erols.com (Nicholas Rosen) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 22:58:20 -0400 Subject: [LMB] AKICITL: Laundry detergent, OT: Message-ID: <001a01c3111f$deaddb20$11432c42@oemcomputer> A large plastic bottle of liquid laundry detergent which I had in a closet unfortunately developed a leak. Now I have a puddle of blue liquid soap on the wooden floor. I've been trying to clean it up a bit, but the floor seems to be definitely the worse for the experience. Does any listee know what to do about soap stains on a wooden floor? Regards, Nicholas Rosen --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Sat May 3 04:25:35 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 21:25:35 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Happy Birthday To... Tom Vinson! Message-ID: <002f01c31123$a972b3a0$7f8171cf@puter> Ahhhh, my very first celebration as your new Temporary Birthday Tixie, and look who I draw: Tom Vinson, whose 57th birthday is tomorrow, May 3rd, is a long time listie, and well known for his thoughful posts on many subjects, his careful observation of list courtesies such as quote trimming and OT tagging.... and the single best--and worst--pun I've ever read on this list! We were swapping soup recipes last December, helping Royce prepare for an anticipated blizzard, when Tom shared one for Santa Fe Soup, about which he footnoted: "[2] You can use white hominy if you can't find yellow; the taste is the same. If you're in the Southwest you might even find blue hominy. Combine yellow, white and blue for...3-part hominy. [Doby will now punish himself.] " Okay, Mister Vinson. It took a while, and who knew the opportunity was ever going to come up, but Doby and I will now sing for you.... in 3 part-- No, wait. I can't. I just, I just.... Happy Birthday, Tom! Hope your day is lovely and your celebration super! ~ Kay, Deputy Birthday Tixie, sprinkling 3-Part Tixie Dust and *still* laughing over that *brilliant* pun.... ;D ;D ===== ~~O8:> --------________--------________-------- From waltpalmer at attbi.com Sat May 3 04:37:18 2003 From: waltpalmer at attbi.com (Walter Palmer) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 22:37:18 -0500 Subject: [LMB] AKICITL: Laundry detergent, OT: In-Reply-To: <001a01c3111f$deaddb20$11432c42@oemcomputer> Message-ID: On 5/2/03 9:58 PM, "Nicholas Rosen" wrote: > A large plastic bottle of liquid laundry detergent which > I had in a closet unfortunately developed a leak. Now > I have a puddle of blue liquid soap on the wooden floor. > I've been trying to clean it up a bit, but the floor seems > to be definitely the worse for the experience. Does any > listee know what to do about soap stains on a wooden > floor? > > > Regards, > Nicholas Rosen 1. Wet soap and floor 2. Use shop vac to vacuum the water up. Right away -do not- allow to set. --------________--------________-------- From waltpalmer at attbi.com Sat May 3 04:41:13 2003 From: waltpalmer at attbi.com (Walter Palmer) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 22:41:13 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Books OT: In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030502212350.01db3ec0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: On 5/2/03 9:31 PM, "Peter H. Granzeau" wrote: > At 19:19 05/02/2003, WaWenri at aol.com wrote: >> I just read the omnibus General series, Warlord and Conqueror. Five books in >> one. Any comments? > > I believe the series is based on the Byzantine general, Belisarius. I > enjoyed reading them when they were first published. Baen appears to be > publishing a lot of stories that have gone Out of Print and reverted to the > authors. Drake, of course, is writing some original stories for Baen at > present, as well (the Leary series). > I believe someone by the name of Stirling co-wrote the books. Try the Island in the Sea of Time series. Also Conquistador. --------________--------________-------- From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz Sat May 3 04:45:04 2003 From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 15:45:04 +1200 Subject: [LMB] AKICITL: Laundry detergent, OT: Message-ID: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F53702A7C98B@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> It could be the *moisture* of the liquid soaking into the wood sealant (I presume the wood is coated in some way!) rather than the soap itself. You undoubtedly have got rid of the detergent in your cleaning. Give the stained area a vigorous rub with furniture oil or linseed oil. Or, if that doesn't seem too effective, try making a kind of paste with the furniture oil and some salt (normal table salt), or perhaps baking soda - try the latter first, but it may "dissolve" completely, depending on your furniture oil. If not, that should give it enough of an abrasive effect to get rid of the worst. Try it on a SMALL patch of the stained area first! HTH, Tracy --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Sat May 3 04:53:17 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 22:53:17 -0500 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/2 @ 10:50PM CDT Message-ID: <20030503035317.GA8379@fireopal.org> See the current info web page at - it also has the list of who's asked to be included in the read, sign & pass along copy - http://www.fireopal.org/~sraun/lmb_pos_auction.html The three current high bids are: rparks at lvhot.org $125 5/2, 12:57PM cally at mail.com $105 5/2, 12:58PM ndrosen at erols.com $100 5/1, 10:44PM There are currently thirteen people signed up for the read, sign & pass-along copy. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From arcangel at io.com Sat May 3 04:43:35 2003 From: arcangel at io.com (Elizabeth McCoy) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 23:43:35 -0400 Subject: OT:[LMB] Comment on marrying young In-Reply-To: <20030502231128.10379.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030502231128.10379.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 4:11 PM -0700 5/2/03, Dawn Anderson wrote: [...] >I gather starter marriages are characterized generally as involving >twenty-[...] to early thirty-somethings [...] with overidealized concepts >of marriage and/or without asking each other the hard questions about >[...Important Stuff...] OTOH, I don't think younger folks have a monopoly >on this kind of situation. [...] knowing oneself and maturity making for >better marriages, but being younger doesn't necessarily mean you don't or >aren't. [...] Right. I met my spouse when I was 17. I moved up here when I was 18. We got married when I was 19. It's been.... 12 years now, and one 3-yr-old (who is THE most stressy thing... besides co-authoring books together...). Spouse was twice my age when I met him. Works fine here. Wouldn't want to ditch him even when I'm peeved at him. Personality, knowing what one wants... very important. -- --Beth, arcangel at io.com / archangel at sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Sat May 3 05:09:06 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 00:09:06 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Happy Birthday To... Tom Vinson! References: <002f01c31123$a972b3a0$7f8171cf@puter> Message-ID: <3EB34070.17000E83@redmaplegrove.org> Kay Carrasco wrote: > > Happy Birthday, Tom! Hope your day is lovely and your > celebration super! What she said. Tom, I don't tell you often enough how much I value you. In fact, I *can't* tell you enough -- sometimes, I have to sleep. Happy Birthday! Marna. --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Sat May 3 05:12:41 2003 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 23:12:41 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Curse of Chalion in French Message-ID: <001701c3112a$53e1a020$0500000a@oemcomputer> Hiya -- I note Chalion is now out in French -- http://www.bragelonne.com/livre.php?num_isbn=2914370458&PHPSESSID=df4e292b7c 8ceedeff5f455a67463e8a Any French-speaking listees hear/read any feedback yet? Ta, L. --------________--------________-------- From braue at ratsnest.win.net Sat May 3 04:50:57 2003 From: braue at ratsnest.win.net (John W. Braue, III) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 23:50:57 -0400 Subject: [LMB] AKICITL: Laundry detergent, OT: References: <001a01c3111f$deaddb20$11432c42@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <000001c3112b$c85e6040$8166fea9@computer> Laundry detergent is not, technically, soap. It sounds like the detergent has penetrated the finish and been absorbed into the wood. If that be the case, it should be treated with hydrogen peroxide and ammonia. Soak a piece of cotton-wool in each, apply the peroxide-soaked piece directly to the stain, and place the ammonia-soaked one on top of that. Several treatments may be necessary. Then, refinish the damaged area. Or, given that it's in a closet, you could close the door and try not to think about it ;) ------------------------------------------------ John W. Braue, III http://www.win.net/ratsnest/log.htm "What's the matter, don't you think I'll be back?" -- last recorded words of Manfred, Freiherr von Richthofen ("The Red Baron") ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicholas Rosen" To: Sent: Friday, 02 May, 2003 22:58 Subject: [LMB] AKICITL: Laundry detergent, OT: > A large plastic bottle of liquid laundry detergent which > I had in a closet unfortunately developed a leak. Now > I have a puddle of blue liquid soap on the wooden floor. > I've been trying to clean it up a bit, but the floor seems > to be definitely the worse for the experience. Does any > listee know what to do about soap stains on a wooden > floor? --------________--------________-------- From russellmartens at hotmail.com Sat May 3 05:24:22 2003 From: russellmartens at hotmail.com (Russell Martens) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 23:24:22 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Books References: <124.216738a2.2be464fc@aol.com> Message-ID: > I just read the omnibus General series, Warlord and Conqueror. Five books in > one. Any comments? You've only read the first five? I'm currently waiting the paperback release of number eight. (or is it nine?) At any rate I enjoyed them. they are well worth it if you ENJOY military SF. If you don't particularly like military novels or are just humouring someone (a spouse who DOES enjoy them), try to avoid them. But then that holds true for nearly everything David Drake has been involved in. For what its worth Drake didn't actually write these. He wrote EXTENSIVE outlines and then turned them over to Steve Stirling to write. At least that's what he says. I'm sure Steve can delurk and comment if he feels its needed. Russell --------________--------________-------- From russellmartens at hotmail.com Sat May 3 05:28:45 2003 From: russellmartens at hotmail.com (Russell Martens) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 23:28:45 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Comment on marrying young [OT] References: <124.2167389d.2be462eb@aol.com> Message-ID: > We never actually dated. We courted. We are exactly one month > short of our 30th anniversary. Sounds even more like our relationship. The half date was a school banquet. She lived in dorm, I commuted. She HAD to go if she wanted supper. The fact that everyone else was going in suits and gowns was irrelevant. She was going to eat supper and was NOT going to be uncomfortable just because everyone else was. She asked me to go with her so she wouldn't be the only one in jeans and a t-shirt. It only turned into a date halfway through. Surprised the heck out of us. Russell --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Sat May 3 05:30:13 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 21:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] AKICITL: Laundry detergent, OT: In-Reply-To: <000001c3112b$c85e6040$8166fea9@computer> Message-ID: <20030502212936.N1629-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Fri, 2 May 2003, John W. Braue, III wrote: > It sounds like the detergent has penetrated the finish and been > absorbed into the wood. If that be the case, it should be treated > with hydrogen peroxide and ammonia. Soak a piece of cotton-wool in > each, apply the peroxide-soaked piece directly to the stain, and place > the ammonia-soaked one on top of that. Several treatments may be > necessary. Then, refinish the damaged area. > > Or, given that it's in a closet, you could close the door and try not > to think about it ;) I must admit, confess, whatever, that this is probably what *I'd* do.... ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Sat May 3 05:40:59 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 00:40:59 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Curse of Chalion in French References: <001701c3112a$53e1a020$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3EB347E8.E1864A33@redmaplegrove.org> Lois McMaster Bujold wrote: > > Any French-speaking listees hear/read any feedback yet? just looking at the blurb -- If you really don't want POS to be spoiled, you may have to have your agent be exceeding round with them; they weren't very careful with this one. And Five Gods, my French is shot. I think I'm going to have to Take Steps. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sat May 3 06:02:27 2003 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 01:02:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Curse of Chalion in French In-Reply-To: <3EB347E8.E1864A33@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 May 2003, Marna Nightingale wrote: > If you really don't want POS to be spoiled, you may have to have your > agent be exceeding round with them; they weren't very careful with > this one. My goodness, yes. The first two paragraphs are fine. But the third paragraph, and definitely the last sentence, are spoilers. I see the same blurb is on www.amazon.fr . Alayne (who finds it helps when she knows what she's supposed to be reading about). -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Sat May 3 07:10:24 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 23:10:24 -0700 Subject: [LMB] AKICITL: Laundry detergent, OT: In-Reply-To: <001a01c3111f$deaddb20$11432c42@oemcomputer> References: <001a01c3111f$deaddb20$11432c42@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3EB35D50.9090309@lvhot.org> Nicholas Rosen wrote: > A large plastic bottle of liquid laundry detergent which > I had in a closet unfortunately developed a leak. Now > I have a puddle of blue liquid soap on the wooden floor. > I've been trying to clean it up a bit, but the floor seems > to be definitely the worse for the experience. Does any > listee know what to do about soap stains on a wooden > floor? Laundry detergent will have great moisture penetration properties. Ick. Clean up what you can on the surface, let it dry, strip and refinish. Close the door. Robert --------________--------________-------- From JoatSimeon at aol.com Sat May 3 07:35:30 2003 From: JoatSimeon at aol.com (JoatSimeon at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 02:35:30 EDT Subject: [LMB] Books Message-ID: <105.2db57069.2be4bd32@aol.com> In a message dated 5/2/03 10:26:50 PM Mountain Daylight Time, russellmartens at hotmail.com writes: > I'm sure Steve can delurk and comment if he feels its > needed. > -- yup; Dave did enormous outlines -- 40K words -- which I then turned into books of around 200K words. It was a pleasant experience; Dave is a gentleman and a scholar. --------________--------________-------- From captnmvk at galaxy.plala.or.jp Sat May 3 08:34:47 2003 From: captnmvk at galaxy.plala.or.jp (Mizuho Yoshida) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 16:34:47 +0900 Subject: [LMB] Gene Therapy and ES cell References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030430152500.02ed4c80@slashyalex.com> <3EB050FC.B33A7DDE@wfu.edu> <5.2.1.1.1.20030430193415.02df04e0@mail.iqcisp.com> Message-ID: <002201c31146$e89b9880$d548a4db@gc> Louann Miller wrote: > We seem to have some kind of weirdly parallel minds. I've just started > reading a book called "Redesigning Humans: Choosing our genes, changing our > future." Will report about Bujoldian aspects when I'm further into it. And ES Cell tech too. I read an article on Japanese newspaper yesterday. Now American and French Labo suceeded to make an egg cell from that. It's Aral's heart surgery scene tech, isn't it? I know this technology is offensive to some people, but I'm very hopeful with it because I have some kind of muscle disease... Mizuho, a Tokyo listee --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Sat May 3 08:44:33 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 00:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] AKICITL: Laundry detergent, OT: Message-ID: Equal parts of White vinegar and warm water, alternate the mopping with this and warm clear water rinse until you no longer get any froth with hard scrubbing. You'vew already probably lost your wax or other finish, so be prepared to redo it. at }->- :} Tinne ;} Laughter Heals :D -<-{ at --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Sat May 3 08:59:35 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 00:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Tom Vinson Message-ID: Happy Birthday! May you always have a fine store of puns ready to your tongue..... no, wait, do I want to do that to the list? Ah, er, um. Ati? Pst (sound of whispers and purrs mingle) You sure about that? (more whispers and purrs) Ooookaaaay. Ahem. May your mousies always be catchable (prosperity), your catnip always fresh and plenty (health and happiness) and your purrs never sound alone (loving friends and family) and may your paws never be too cold (safety and security) To which I will add may your loaned books always be returned and may you always have the ready to purchase books from the authors you love when you find them. Susan in Seattle --------________--------________-------- From jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu Sat May 3 15:17:09 2003 From: jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu (Jason Bontrager) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 09:17:09 -0500 Subject: [LMB] AKICITL: Laundry detergent, OT: In-Reply-To: <20030502212936.N1629-100000@shell.rawbw.com> References: <20030502212936.N1629-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <3EB3CF65.3080005@mail.utexas.edu> Azalais Malfoy wrote: > On Fri, 2 May 2003, John W. Braue, III wrote: > > >>It sounds like the detergent has penetrated the finish and been >>absorbed into the wood. If that be the case, it should be treated >>with hydrogen peroxide and ammonia. Soak a piece of cotton-wool in >>each, apply the peroxide-soaked piece directly to the stain, and place >>the ammonia-soaked one on top of that. Several treatments may be >>necessary. Then, refinish the damaged area. >> >>Or, given that it's in a closet, you could close the door and try not >>to think about it ;) > > > I must admit, confess, whatever, that this is probably what *I'd* > do.... > > ~malfoy Carpet, rugs, storage boxes, self-adhesive tiles, paint (after pronounced sanding)...hey, if you can't see the problem then it's not really there, right?:-) Jason B. --------________--------________-------- From ndrosen at erols.com Sat May 3 17:34:38 2003 From: ndrosen at erols.com (Nicholas Rosen) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 12:34:38 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Attn: DC Area Listees Message-ID: <009001c31191$e8fc8820$11432c42@oemcomputer> There will be a party Wednesday, May 7, at 1:00 PM, to celebrate my promotion to Primary Examiner. It will be an office party, a little cake after lunch, at 2451 Crystal Drive (Crystal Park 5), Arlington VA 22202, in room 5W01 on the fifth floor. Visitors should come to the seventh floor receptionist first. Anyone who's planning to come should drop me a line in advance. We should have an actual MiniLoisCon at some point, say, to celebrate my promotion and Paladin of Souls. If I win the auction, I may want to read a bit of the bound galley. Regards, Nicholas Rosen --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Sat May 3 18:20:02 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 10:20:02 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Happy Birthday To... Tom Vinson! Message-ID: "Kay Carrasco" unfurled her DBT wings and shook the tixie dust around: Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 21:25:35 -0600 > Ahhhh, my very first celebration as your new Temporary Birthday Tixie, < And a WONDERFUL DBT you make, KayC! I see the tixie dust glittering from the Valley of the Sun! >and look who I draw: Tom Vinson, whose 57th birthday is tomorrow, May 3rd, >is a long time listie, and well known for his thoughful posts on many >subjects, his careful observation of list courtesies such as quote trimming and OT tagging.... and the single best--and worst--pun I've ever read on this list!< Happy birthday, Tom! May you spend your day enjoying your family and friends, celebrating in the way *you* get to choose, and I hope you have a lovely year that includes health, happiness, and visits to your son at Yale! [Good luck getting through the IB finals this month. Heh.] Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper in a birthday hat! _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Sat May 3 18:35:53 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 12:35:53 -0500 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/3 @ 12:30PM CDT Message-ID: <20030503173553.GF12925@fireopal.org> See the current info web page at - it also has the list of who's asked to be included in the read, sign & pass along copy - http://www.fireopal.org/~sraun/lmb_pos_auction.html The three current high bids are: ndrosen at erols.com $200 5/3, 8:53AM rparks at lvhot.org $125 5/2, 12:57PM pam at gotcher.us $125 5/3, 10:22AM (I see only one winner survived the night.) There are currently nineteen people signed up for the read, sign & pass-along copy. (And one pending request - I'm not adding to the list until I have complete mailing info.) -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Sat May 3 19:08:40 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 14:08:40 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Comment from my newest convert Message-ID: <3EB405A3.930D7672@redmaplegrove.org> (On finishing _Mirror Dance_, _Komarr_ and _ACC_ in one week) "The hero dies. And dies. And dies. And pops his head up and dies some more. Very satisfying; all through the early books, I kept wanting someone to go after Naismith with a stick-with-a-nail, and then suddenly *everybody* does". Reply from me: "I never thought of it before, but it's like one of those fairy tales: if you really love me, you'll kill me. And then the Real Prince emerges" Which is pretty thin OnTopic-itude, but it is a perspective I'd never previously considered. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Sat May 3 19:23:59 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 14:23:59 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Comment from my newest convert References: <3EB405A3.930D7672@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <3EB40939.982AC1C9@redmaplegrove.org> Following myself up, bad habit. Marna Nightingale wrote: > "The hero dies. And dies. And dies. Which makes me wonder: those of you who don't like Miles: is it Naismith you dislike, or the whole package? Do you like Miles Vorkosigan better? Does anyone love Naismith and find Vorkosigan less to their taste? I like Naismith, myself. But I like Vorkosigan better, as I get used to him. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From kerry at forty-two.co.nz Sat May 3 19:25:22 2003 From: kerry at forty-two.co.nz (Kerry Dustin) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 06:25:22 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: Comment on marrying young In-Reply-To: <00b201c30f64$5ed269a0$eb24d943@ray1000> Message-ID: In this thread someone commented (sorry I can't find the original email) about marrying late and things not working out. I have to agree with that. I got married last October to someone I've known for about seven years. At the time I was 33 and he was 30. We had thought things were getting very serious about four years earlier, but I found myself getting so stressed about everything I broke up with him. We were apart for two years, he moved out of town to a new job, I got on with doing things for myself instead of letting him do things for me. In other words, we both "grew up" in a bunch of ways we still had needed to do. Two years later, I woke up one morning just knowing that things were "right". With this guy I'd broken up with two years earlier. I send him a letter asking if we could try again and spend a couple of very anxious days waiting for a reply. He said "yes" to my great relief and five months later we were engaged. Everything that had been wrong earlier was now right. It's still right and it is my hope and intention that it will be right for the rest of our lives. Sure, I'd have like to have more years with him. The the person he was earlier and the person I was earlier whould have exploded into disaster in a firey supernova. Now, we've grown into ourselves and it is good. So I think the "right time" is much, much important that "early" or "late". We got married at the right time and that's what should make our marriage last. Kerry --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.467 / Virus Database: 266 - Release Date: 1/04/03 --------________--------________-------- From kerry at forty-two.co.nz Sat May 3 19:25:20 2003 From: kerry at forty-two.co.nz (Kerry Dustin) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 06:25:20 +1200 Subject: [LMB] re: OT: Uterine replicators In-Reply-To: <3EAFF9A9.F65DACF4@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Susan Fox-Davis/Ma Foxti wrote: > I'm a woman who has not yet managed to sucessfully > complete a pregnancy. The subject stings, but I'm > dealing with it, since it's such an important theme in > Lois' books. DAMN but I wish we had that kind > of reproductive technology in the here-and-now. I don't know if this is relevant or not, and clearly this is a very personal subject as has already been said, but I wanted to add my comment. Uterine Replicators would help an awful lot of people, but not everyone. As far as I know, I could carry a pregnancy to term (I haven't tried), but my husband and I have been forced to decide not to have children. Not because we physically can't have them, but because I have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. I have had this for going on thirteen years now and I have learned my limitations. I simply could not raise a child because of my health. I need as uninterrupted a night's sleep as I can manage and often several hours sleep during the day just to keep functioning, among a whole host of other symptoms. My husband already does a huge amount around the house because I can't do it all - and that's on top of having cleaners come in because I can't manage that. A replicator might save me from the exhaustions of pregnancy, but nothing is going to save me from the exhaustions of raising a child and my husband and I have decided that to try to do so would not be fair to either of us and most especially not to any child. > I can concur with Laura's summation that the most > important factor in childrearing is LOVE. > Love your kids. Take them seriously. I agree with this too. But you also need to care for them physically. I find there is no "place" in society for my situation. Now, when the inevitable question "when are you going to have children?" gets asked I just make it sound like I'm totally infertile and it's biology that's the reason why we've decided not to do so. Otherwise I just get a lot of platitudes along the lines of "of course you would manage" or "it'll be different when it happens". I'm the one who's sick and I know what I can and can't manage. And I already love any potential child I won't be having and I'm not prepared to take the risk that that child wouldn't get the love and protection it deserved because mummy is sick and daddy is too stressed from all the work he has to do to take care of two of us. I've heard anecdotal evidence that some people's CFS clears up or seriously improves when they have a child. If it was only my risk to take, I might try it. I've tried many other things. But I am NOT prepared to take that kind of risk with my child. And if I find out after that child is born that I'm exactly the same or, heaven forfend, worse, well it's kind of too late to send the kid back then. Sorry, this had gone on longer than I intended. I know this is an issue for me - which is why I've written this rather than just staying quiet, but I didn't really expect all of this to fall off my fingers. Having children is something I think human beings take for granted. "I'll be able to do it if I want to." There are a heck of a lot of things out there to stop you, many of them far from obvious. Okay. I'll shut up now. Kerry --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.467 / Virus Database: 266 - Release Date: 1/04/03 --------________--------________-------- From kerry at forty-two.co.nz Sat May 3 19:25:23 2003 From: kerry at forty-two.co.nz (Kerry Dustin) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 06:25:23 +1200 Subject: [LMB] the auction, and a note on maps In-Reply-To: <003701c3102b$cf939660$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: Lois wrote: > _Paladin of Souls_ is slated to have a map, by the by, or perhaps even > two, though they didn't get in to the bound galleys. The first > is the same > as the one up on the website; the second is a closer-up view, for people > with aging eyes like mine. YAY! I'm one of those people who REALLY appreciates maps. I am NOT a visual person, so it doesn't really matter how carefully detailed things are in the prose, I'm not going to SEE it. Having a map just helps me have the story fall together better in my head. I don't see action or anything when I read. I fall into a book and live inside it for a while, but it's a very visceral experience for me. I kind of "feel" it, rather than see it. And have a memory like a goldfist thanks to my CFS doesn't really help. I just finished "The Curse of Chalion" yesterday (long story why I've only just done so that I won't bore you with right now - maybe later) and I would have loved a map. Not having one didn't hinder my enjoying the book (loved it), but I really had no idea what directions people where going as they travelled or how each country/province lay in relations to the others. I know the directions where in the book, but I couldn't put them together into a picture. I'm for maps. I can look at them if I want to, and anyone else can ignore them if they want to. Without a map, no-one has a choice. But that said, I can see the point of the person (sorry, can't remember names and stuff easly either) who pointed out the difficulties of producing maps when your skills lie in other directions. I will take that into account in the future when I wish for maps. I've been reading through the thread further since I wrote this and I do have to agree with the repeated point that is the map is there because the required details can't be gathered from the prose, then that's not such a good thing. As someone put it, a book that doesn't need a map and has one is better than I book that NEEDS a map. For me, I like having them there since I am visually and geographically challenged, but a good book without a map is ALWAYS better than a bad book with one. Kerry --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.467 / Virus Database: 266 - Release Date: 1/04/03 --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Sat May 3 19:33:47 2003 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 13:33:47 -0500 Subject: [LMB] a map for Kerry, and other Chalion readers Message-ID: <000901c311a2$997d3680$0500000a@oemcomputer> Hiya -- Re: the map discussion, a reminder that the large-scale Chalion map is up on-line on dendarii.com, at http://www.dendarii.com/map.html for your delectation. You can print it out, too, you know, for ready reference. I'm thinking -- would it be useful to have a cross-index in the front page index with all things Chalion, to make them easier for new visitors to find? Mike B.? Ta, Lois. --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Sat May 3 19:59:16 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 14:59:16 -0400 Subject: [LMB] a map for Kerry, and other Chalion readers References: <000901c311a2$997d3680$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3EB4117D.119BD8F@redmaplegrove.org> Maps: That's really pretty! I love the lettering. Was that you, or Ms Collins? "Yiss" makes me smile. Hic Serpentes? I don't use maps myself, while reading the books, mostly because for no reason I can explain they confuse rather than enlighten me, (how did Moria get THERE? Where's Rivendell again?-- I seem to understand book-distance in terms of days travelled, and book-maps almost never have reliable scale in units I can read -- 2.6 madeupunits = 1 mile, which is 1.6 kilometers and oh Gods my HEAD!) but I like looking at them before and after. They're just pretty. The canonical map of the Nexus makes me think of a model of the chemical makeup of something you'd use to kill slugs with, somehow... Space-mapping is an infant art. Fantasy maps are always prettier. I do know at least one fantasy reader who swears that maps affect him like catnip: give him a page count over 400 and a nice map to contemplate, he says, and he'll follow you anywhere. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Sat May 3 20:06:20 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 15:06:20 -0400 Subject: [LMB] CFS OT: was: Uterine replicators References: Message-ID: <3EB41325.D772CE52@redmaplegrove.org> Kerry Dustin wrote: > Uterine Replicators would help an awful lot of people, but not everyone. Let me just say I'm not trying to change your mind about kids. But in terms of general quality of life, have you tried or had any luck with Elavil or other antidepressants? NOT for their antidepressant qualities per se -- a lot of people are reluctant to use SSRIs or tricyclics for chronic fatigue or fibro because having them prescribed feels like being told that it's all in their head -- but for their value in treating poor sleep and pain and other symptoms. Good article here http://www.cfids.org/archives/2001rr/2001-rr3-article01.asp Marna. --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Sat May 3 21:57:34 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 16:57:34 -0400 Subject: OT:[LMB] Comment on marrying young References: <20030502231128.10379.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EB42D34.7AA40E97@redmaplegrove.org> You know, I quite like living alone. I even like being single. It's entirely a tribute to the calibre of people who have somehow been duped into thinking that marrying me was a good idea that I've so repeatedly ended up not single since I was, um. 23 or so, because I don't think I've EVER been 'looking' to find someone and settle down. Like mehitabel, I keep getting abducted, and it's h*ll on the inner life, but there it is :-) I still don't "feel ready for marriage". I keep trying to figure out what that might feel like. I'm never sure I'm there. I think I'm fairly good at it and have some sort of basic confidence that I can grow fast enough to keep up with how it's all evolving. As far as longer life expectancy, the work aspects are more intriguing to me than the marriage aspect; marriage, listees, seem to agree, ideally happens when you're ready and you meet the right person and they are ready, and not one day sooner. Scheduling it in at a given point in one's life seems to lead to disaster. Left to myself, and given a Betan life expectancy, I'd probably have liked an interesting and okay-paying job at 18, (which I got doing staging), a kid at 27, MAYBE another at 30, part time work for me and part time for Spouse or Spice until the kid or kids started school, and back to full time higher education then, followed by some serious career-path stuff. A sabbatical when the last kid left home. Maybe more school, then, and then more work. And so forth. Some periods of living alone, without necessarily ending relationships. Some of that I've done. I'm not necessarily where my peers are right now, since I'm all of 33 and finally the work stuff is sort of coming together, at the fourth of fifth career change, and the education stuff is ongoing and still in flux, but I'm starting to feel as if I'll have time to fit it all in. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Sat May 3 22:03:54 2003 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 17:03:54 -0400 Subject: [LMB] I'm back too: OT: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030503170222.00a003a0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Joy, we're so sorry to hear about your loss. Becki was a lovely woman who graced our list for far too short a time. Our thoughts and prayers are with you. Marty & Jerrie --------________--------________-------- From kerry at forty-two.co.nz Sat May 3 22:43:44 2003 From: kerry at forty-two.co.nz (Kerry Dustin) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 09:43:44 +1200 Subject: [LMB] a map for Kerry, and other Chalion readers In-Reply-To: <000901c311a2$997d3680$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <000201c311bd$12f01180$0300a8c0@void.fortytwo.co.nz> Lois wrote: > Subject: [LMB] a map for Kerry, and other Chalion readers > > > Hiya -- > > Re: the map discussion, a reminder that the large-scale > Chalion map is up on-line on dendarii.com, at > http://www.dendarii.com/map.html Oh that is wonderful, thank you. I didn't know about it. Not having the map didn't alter my appreciation of the story one bit, but that helps me see how all the journeying went. I said I wasn't visual. Ibra is in totally different place with respect to Chalion that I thought. And the route Caz took to get there must have been about 90degress different from what I was imagining. I remain in the "include a map if you have one" camp. :-) Kerry PWC since 1990 -- http://www.forty-two.co.nz/corner http://rocalisa.livejournal.com "The fact that I have fangs might be considered important by some people..." - Dark Symphony, Christine Feehan --------________--------________-------- From kerry at forty-two.co.nz Sat May 3 22:43:44 2003 From: kerry at forty-two.co.nz (Kerry Dustin) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 09:43:44 +1200 Subject: [LMB] CFS OT: was: Uterine replicators In-Reply-To: <3EB41325.D772CE52@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <000101c311bd$12b46810$0300a8c0@void.fortytwo.co.nz> Marna wrote: > Subject: [LMB] CFS OT: was: Uterine replicators > > > Kerry Dustin wrote: > >> Uterine Replicators would help an awful lot of people, but not >> everyone. > > Let me just say I'm not trying to change your mind about kids. > > But in terms of general quality of life, have you tried or > had any luck with Elavil or other antidepressants? I'm on antidepressants for depression (common secondary illness) and live without them would be a whole lot worse. My health sucks - my life is wonderful. (If that makes sense.) If I'm careful and I don't push myself, life goes well despite the health issues. It's when I push myself past my limits I get into trouble. Unfortunately I do that a little too often. Thank you for your concern and suggestions. It's appreciated. Kerry PWC since 1990 -- http://www.forty-two.co.nz/corner http://rocalisa.livejournal.com "The fact that I have fangs might be considered important by some people..." - Dark Symphony, Christine Feehan --------________--------________-------- From adie_lisbeth at yahoo.ca Sat May 3 23:07:14 2003 From: adie_lisbeth at yahoo.ca (*Cici*) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 18:07:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Comment from my newest convert In-Reply-To: <3EB40939.982AC1C9@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <20030503220714.77858.qmail@web21503.mail.yahoo.com> Marna Nightingale wrote: Does anyone love Naismith and find Vorkosigan less to their taste? --> *gets off her lurking posterior and waves* Hi Marna! As a person, I love Vorkosigan more, but I think Naismith had a lot more uhm..flair. I loved the concept of this guy running around the galaxy pretending to be an Admiral. He didn't actually know what he was doing, and was just exhilirated by it all in a "Hi, my name is Bob, let's blow things up and get rewarded" sense. In A Warrior's Apprentice, he ran away, became Naismith, and *somehow* did something wonderful. When he's Vorkosigan, he becomes an Imperial Auditor. So...he actually *is* what he says he is and actually has *real* authority and *real* power and a *real* title. :) To me, it seems a little less exciting when he's being Vorkosigan, "this is my duty to.." as opposed to Naismith "I know this is illegal...but what the hey!" Besides, Miles running around naked and gathering up followers in BoI was just *funny*. Cici --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Sat May 3 23:27:58 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 15:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Maybe Listee Sighting Message-ID: I am shy in real life. I remember we have a Seattle area listee who wears a utilikilt and Tevas, but because of this morning's migraine I could not remember his name. And it is not someone I remember meeting at a previous mini-con or have a picture of that I know. This afternoon after Kisbetya'rok (1:30pmish), we all went out to the Mercer Island McDonalds to feed the kids and took over the center section. But as we were talking about costumes and coming performances, I saw a middle aged gentleman come in in a utilikilt of a sort of not quite mud colored and not quite the color brown Khaki would be if it were darker brown. If I could have remembered the listee's name I would have gone over and asked if it were him. But before I could get over my shyness and go over to ask, the person scooted out the door. Now, I wonder if it were indeed the fellow listee or not? Susan in Seattle --------________--------________-------- From kknolte at ecity.net Sat May 3 17:43:20 2003 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 17:43:20 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Comment from my newest convert References: <3EB405A3.930D7672@redmaplegrove.org> <3EB40939.982AC1C9@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <3EB3F1A5.4233@ecity.net> Marna Nightingale wrote: > > Following myself up, bad habit. > > Marna Nightingale wrote: > > > "The hero dies. And dies. And dies. > > Which makes me wonder: those of you who don't like Miles: is it > Naismith you dislike, or the whole package? Do you like Miles > Vorkosigan better? > > Does anyone love Naismith and find Vorkosigan less to their taste? > > I like Naismith, myself. But I like Vorkosigan better, as I get used > to him. I like young Naismith/Vorkosigan better - Vorkosigan past the second half of ACC just gives me an 'ehh' feeling - I'm sure I wasn't supposed to be reading DI so dispassionately as to read the hero in deadly danger and think 'okay, there's the big Clue that's going to help him in a few more chapters'. Although I think it's because I really became a fervent Miles fan when he was a grand tragic hero (Memory - still the best book she's ever done as far as I'm concerned), and then ACC turned him into a two-bit hero, where you know he's going to win no matter how many plot coincidences are needed (Doris Egan _Ivory_ reference). Of course, books where you know what's going to happen, and you just read it to see how the author does it (ie, two-bit heroes) are quite fun if you're in the mood for it - but someone who can write a book which does leave you guessing about what's going on and does it fairly is, if not better, rather harder to find. Karen --------________--------________-------- From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca Sun May 4 00:13:20 2003 From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James and Mary Burbidge) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 19:13:20 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Books References: <124.216738a2.2be464fc@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EB44D10.D9CCB52A@sympatico.ca> WaWenri at aol.com wrote: > > I just read the omnibus General series, Warlord and Conqueror. Five books in > one. Any comments? > > Bill Wenrich Belisarius? -- James Burbidge jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca --------________--------________-------- From raye_j at yahoo.com Sun May 4 02:46:06 2003 From: raye_j at yahoo.com (Raye Johnsen) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 18:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vorkosigan vs. Naismith (was: Re: [LMB] Comment from my newest convert) In-Reply-To: <3EB40939.982AC1C9@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <20030504014606.20231.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> --- Marna Nightingale wrote: > Does anyone love Naismith and find Vorkosigan less > to their taste? > > I like Naismith, myself. But I like Vorkosigan > better, as I get used > to him. I see Naismith as the man whom Miles would like to be, and Vorkosigan as the man whom he becomes. Therefore, while I quite like both, I find Vorkosigan preferable; not because Naismith is a worse person but because he is of necessity incomplete. Miles is Miles Naismith *Vorkosigan* to himself, even when he is Admiral Naismith. Consequently I find it thematically very satisfying that Naismith 'dies' when Miles becomes Lord Auditor Vorkosigan. It is appropriate that the illusory entity should be dispersed when the 'true' self emerges. Raye ===== raye_j at yahoo.com livejournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/windtear http://www.thejohnsens.com/index.html "It means, I'm in charge... where are you going?" - C-3PO (to R2D2), 'Star Wars: Attack of the Clones' __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From litalex at slashyalex.com Sun May 4 03:05:27 2003 From: litalex at slashyalex.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 19:05:27 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Comment from my newest convert In-Reply-To: <3EB40939.982AC1C9@redmaplegrove.org> References: <3EB405A3.930D7672@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030503190440.02839ff8@slashyalex.com> Hello, At 11:23 05/03/2003, Marna Nightingale wrote: >Does anyone love Naismith and find Vorkosigan less to their taste? Actually, I never thought of him as anyone other than Miles. So that stayed constant even though he was in completely different...shades. little Alex --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Sun May 4 03:42:15 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 22:42:15 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Maps Message-ID: <1df.82e6c9a.2be5d807@aol.com> In a message dated 5/3/2003 6:45:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: It seems to me that the trouble with most maps in novels is that you can't really figure out things like "days traveled" unless they are topographical maps, which they never are. Look at a topographical map, see that the elevation has gone up several thousand feet over a few miles, and you will realize that nobody's going to be prancing happily up that path, but more likely trudging slowly. And probably stopping to camp a lot more often if the trip is more than a few miles. Mary > Message: 11 > Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 14:59:16 -0400 > From: Marna Nightingale > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Subject: Re: [LMB] a map for Kerry, and other Chalion readers > Reply-To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > Maps: > > That's really pretty! I love the lettering. Was that you, or Ms > Collins? > > "Yiss" makes me smile. Hic Serpentes? > > I don't use maps myself, while reading the books, mostly because for > no reason I can explain they confuse rather than enlighten me, (how > did Moria get THERE? Where's Rivendell again?-- I seem to understand > book-distance in terms of days travelled, and book-maps almost never > have reliable scale in units I can read -- 2.6 madeupunits = 1 mile, > which is 1.6 kilometers and oh Gods my HEAD!) but I like looking at > them before and after. They're just pretty. > > The canonical map of the Nexus makes me think of a model of the > chemical makeup of something you'd use to kill slugs with, somehow... > Space-mapping is an infant art. Fantasy maps are always prettier. > > I do know at least one fantasy reader who swears that maps affect him > like catnip: give him a page count over 400 and a nice map to > contemplate, he says, and he'll follow you anywhere. > > Marna. --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Sun May 4 04:01:09 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 22:01:09 -0500 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/3 @ 10:00PM CD In-Reply-To: <20030503173553.GF12925@fireopal.org> References: <20030503173553.GF12925@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <20030504030109.GA16303@fireopal.org> See the current info web page at - it also has the list of who's asked to be included in the read, sign & pass along copy - http://www.fireopal.org/~sraun/lmb_pos_auction.html The current high bids are: rparks at lvhot.org $225 5/3, 2:21PM ndrosen at erols.com $200 5/3, 8:53AM rparks at lvhot.org $125 5/2, 12:57PM pam at gotcher.us $125 5/3, 10:22AM (Yes, I know that's four bids - I've been operating on the assumption that the top three _bidders_ would receive a copy. But Robert is currently holding two of the top three spaces.) There are currently nineteen people signed up for the read, sign & pass-along copy. (And one pending request - I'm not adding to the list until I have complete mailing info.) -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Sun May 4 04:24:31 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 23:24:31 -0400 Subject: [LMB] re: OT: Uterine replicators References: Message-ID: <008901c311ec$ae33f2e0$630d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerry Dustin" > .... I have Chronic Fatigue > Syndrome. I have had this for going on thirteen years now and I have > learned my limitations. I simply could not raise a child because of my > health. .... > > I find there is no "place" in society for my situation. Now, when the > inevitable question "when are you going to have children?" gets asked I just... If you can afford it, there is -- a couple I knew (they split up some years ago after moving to another part of the country; he remarried, I don't know what her situation is, don't know if she has a permanent partner again or not) -- they remodeled part of their house and hired a live-in au pair, to take care of their child. --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Sun May 4 06:47:23 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 22:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Comment from my newest convert In-Reply-To: <200305032245.h43MjHr5019243@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Comment was made about Miles, and how Marna's newest convert found it satisfying to kill off Miles over and over again. Question was asked about did we like the Naismith Version or the Vorkosigan version better? Neither. Maybe because I'm on older woman, the Aral in Shards and Barrayar has me warm all over. Cordelia, I wish I could grow up to be like her one day, but I know reality is such that it is beyond the stars of possibility. And while I am fond of Ivan, it is in many ways because he reminds me of Nicholas Marcelja (aka Grendel the Red Troll and Master Grendel in An Tir) whom I first met while he was still in college and I was an old married woman catching a ride to fight practice in the old white Volkswagon bus. But Cazaril and Iselle and Umegat have me enthralled. They are older, they have had a bit of a rough life under their belts, they are trying to carry on in spite of it, and so far they are doing well at the end of CoC. And the Provincara, oh I wish I could have her wit and wisdom if I live to be her age! These are the characters that draw me in to sit next to their fire and warm my shivering heart. Miles, in either form is fine, Ivan is a dear sweet boy, but even as a new father and Auditor somewhere inside me Miles is young to me. at }->- :} Tinne ;} Laughter Heals :D -<-{ at --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Sun May 4 06:54:28 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 22:54:28 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Comment from my newest convert Message-ID: Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 14:23:59 -0400 Marna Nightingale wrote: >Does anyone love Naismith and find Vorkosigan less to their taste? < Hmm. Good question, Marna. Like Little Alex (right?), I think of him as just Miles. On further reflection, when Miles didn't get into the Academy, *Vorkosigan* became the *loser* self, the Insufficient, in Miles' subconscious, IMHO. He created Naismith, who became the *real* person, the success, the one that he felt that Piotyr would have been proud of (consciously or subconsciously). It seemed to me that his Vorkosigan identity became, for him, almost a shell. Naismith had all the excitement, the power, the women, the following. Until Miles was forced to *lose* his Naismith life in Memory, and had to decide whether being Vorkosigan could be sufficient a persona for him. The transformation, for me, was extremely moving. He didn't divest himself of his Naismith traits entirely; he brings them to the surface when necessary. I don't feel that after he became *Vorkosigan,* he became a predictable character. For me, the Vorkosigan character is the more interesting of the two. I think it's the first time we see Miles truly comfortable in his own skin, as it were. Far from boring, I find him even more irresistible as Vorkosigan, I guess. [Please keep letting him grow, Lois!!] Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Sun May 4 06:59:14 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 22:59:14 -0700 Subject: [LMB] I'm back too: OT: Message-ID: Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 17:03:54 -0400 Jerrie writes; >Joy, we're so sorry to hear about your loss. Becki was a lovely woman who >graced our list for far too short a time.< Joy, I echo Jerrie's expressions of sympathy to you. I'm very sorry about the loss of your friend, Becki. I hope the joy of your wedding and the companionship of your marriage is a fitting comfort at this time. It's good to see you back. Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Sun May 4 07:06:44 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 23:06:44 -0700 Subject: [LMB] a map for Kerry, and other Chalion readers Message-ID: Lois McMaster Bujold shares: Sat, 3 May 2003 13:33:47 -0500 >Re: the map discussion, a reminder that the large-scale Chalion map is up >on-line on dendarii.com, at http://www.dendarii.com/map.html for your >delectation. You can print it out, too, you know, for ready reference.< Really nice map, Lois! The hand lettering looks very elegant. >I'm thinking -- would it be useful to have a cross-index in the front page index with all things Chalion, to make them easier for new visitors to find? Mike B.?< I know that when I read a book, I pay special attention when a cast of characters or description of the "universe" is placed in front. IMHO, it would be a good idea. Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From spatel at cs.hmc.edu Sun May 4 07:14:56 2003 From: spatel at cs.hmc.edu (Seema Patel) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 23:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Vorkosigan vs. Naismith In-Reply-To: <20030504014606.20231.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Does anyone love Naismith and find Vorkosigan less to their taste? When I first read the series at 16, my favorite books were tWA and VG for two main reasons: 1) I liked the plots of those books better (more action oriented), and 2) I liked that Miles better. He was younger, spunkier. He took more risks, made more mistakes. It was easy to relate to him, to the trials and self-explorations he was going through. I certainly enjoyed the later books, but they never quite held the same appeal to me as the earlier books. I graduated from college last may and have taken a step closer to the real world (or, as close to the real world as grad school can get). At first I hated it. I hated being away from my friends, I hated having to cook my own meals and take out my own trash, but most of all, I hated the fact that I was growing up. In those first couple of months I tried everything possible to cling to my college years. I talked to my friends every night, I visited those that were still at college every 8 weeks or so, I lived off of macaroni and cheese and ramen even though I could've afforded to eat better. I tried everything possible to keep myself from realizing that I'd become a little older. Recently, things have started to change. I've gotten used to living alone, I've made new friends, I've started cooking elaborate meals for myself (something I used to enjoy doing on occasion in college). Essentially, I've realized that growing up is not the end of the world. I think my relationship with the Vorkosigan series has been very similar. When I was younger, I related to the younger miles better and so I enjoyed the earlier books more. When I moved last summer I found myself rereading tWA and VG fairly often, trying to remember relating to that younger miles. Now, I can feel my tastes starting to change. Although the earlier books are still my favorite, I can see the older books growing on me as I continue to mature and start to relate to the older miles. In general, I seem to relate better to characters (and thus like characters) that seem to be at similar points in their lives as I am in mine. (For another example, I like the FitzChivalry in the Assassin's Apprentice series more than the FitzChivalry in the Tawny Man trilogy.) So while I like Naismith better now, I can certainly see myself changing my mind in several years and preferring Vorkosigan. seema --------________--------________-------- From theneals at xtra.co.nz Sun May 4 10:19:43 2003 From: theneals at xtra.co.nz (Anita Neal) Date: 04 May 2003 21:19:43 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Where are the Orthodox? Message-ID: <1052039980.993.5.camel@orac> Given the extensive presence of both Greeks and Russians in the settlement of Barrayar, where is the Orthodox Church? One would imagine the various Counts and Emperors studiously encouraging any church or religion which would be a stabilising force, and Orthodoxy has certainly fulfilled this role for centuries. Or have I missed something? -- Anita Neal --------________--------________-------- From sir-talen at comcast.net Sun May 4 10:18:55 2003 From: sir-talen at comcast.net (Royce Day) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 05:18:55 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Monthly GURPS Non-Update Message-ID: <3EB4DAFF.6010507@comcast.net> De-lurking briefly. The August release schedule for SJG was posted a few days ago. No GURPS Vorkosigan yet.... -Royce in MD --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Sat May 3 19:18:50 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 19:18:50 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Kevin Kennedy's Back - Hooray! In-Reply-To: <200305011836.h41Ia5r5009175@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030503191741.00b038e0@pop.luna.co.uk> Welcome back, Kevin - it's great to see you. James --------________--------________-------- From yapivy at techemail.com Sun May 4 11:29:49 2003 From: yapivy at techemail.com (Ivy Yap) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 03:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan vs Naismith Message-ID: <20030504102949.3824A4C9E@sitemail.everyone.net> Marna Nightingale asked: >>>> Which makes me wonder: those of you who don't like Miles: is it Naismith you dislike, or the whole package? Do you like Miles Vorkosigan better? <<<< I definitely dislike Naismith and his whole "I know what's best" attitude - I think it was the Naismith side that helped get Bothari killed. The reason I got turned on to the series in the first place was because of "Mountains of Mourning". Naismith seems to be Miles overcompensating wildly, without considering anybody else's feelings. He's just lucky he's actually competent, otherwise he would have been lynched a long time ago. Vorkosigan is somebody we don't know too well yet - even Miles hardly knows his Vorkosigan side any more after years of suppressing him. Hmmm, I think a re-read may be in order. -------------------- Ivy Yap yapivy at techemail.com If you think rejection is hard, try regret. (Carolyn Hax) _____________________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you at yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag --------________--------________-------- From markdeddy at comcast.net Sun May 4 14:46:24 2003 From: markdeddy at comcast.net (MARK EDDY) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 06:46:24 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Where are the Orthodox? Message-ID: <3dbd97a3dbcf77.3dbcf773dbd97a@icomcast.net> From: Anita Neal > Given the extensive presence of both Greeks and Russians in the > settlement of Barrayar, where is the Orthodox Church? One would > imaginethe various Counts and Emperors studiously encouraging any > church or religion which would be a stabilising force, and > Orthodoxy has certainly fulfilled this role for centuries. Or > have I missed something? > -- > Anita Neal > -- I don't think you've actually missed anything. I actually found it very telling that Ezar sought refuge and comfort in atheism at the end of his life, after the truly awful things he had had done to his own son. This would mean that there was some sort of theism that he was running from, and an Orthodox type belief structure could certainly fit that bill. Not to mention that the English-descent Anglicans would have been fairly easily (by comparison to other faiths) folded back under the Orthodox umbrella, there could very well be a Barrayaran Orthodox Church, complete with a Patriarch or Exarch. Mark (but I'm an Episcopalian, so what would I know?) Eddy --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Sun May 4 16:15:35 2003 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 11:15:35 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: mostly, PBS _Manor House_ Message-ID: <3EB52E97.5547AFDD@erols.com> The exit interviews are facinating: http://www.pbs.org/manorhouse/thepeople/postquestionnaires.html I say this is mostly OT, because it actually applies, in a mutated form, to the running of Vorkosigan house. --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Sun May 4 16:20:45 2003 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 10:20:45 -0500 Subject: [LMB] CoC in Spanish! Message-ID: <001b01c31252$be740a80$0500000a@oemcomputer> Hiya -- My Spanish translator writes to me: "Spanish first part of CoC -Los Cuervos del Zangre- is out on our bookstores. Readers can take a peek at the first chapter using this link: http://www.distrimagen.es/catalogo/book.asp?referencia=LFL1523 ...This book has risen great expectations among your Spanish fans, but it's been selling for less than one week now, so I still haven't gathered any comments on it. I'll let you know when people start talking, though." Cool! I hope part 2 gets published soon, though, yipes. Mercifully, they didn't split it at the Ch. 11 cliffhanger, but rather later, but still; it's meant to be read as a whole. Ta, Lois. --------________--------________-------- From ljodpundari at mailpuppy.com Sun May 4 16:51:18 2003 From: ljodpundari at mailpuppy.com (Thomas Vinson) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 21:51:18 +0600 Subject: [LMB] Re: birthday Message-ID: <20030504155118.19175.qmail@mailpuppy.com> Thanks for all the good wishes. I did indeed get to pick the activities--Thai food, then a movie.* And I have been appropriately punished for my recipe addendum. My wife hunted out a card just for me. The cover photo is two toddlers knee- deep in the surf, and the caption, "I waded my whole life for you." This is technically incorrect, since we have been married almost 25 years, but I got the point. Tom [*] "Bend it like Beckham", very enjoyable, and accessible both to those who know nothing about soccer and to those who do not understand what I think was Punjabi. -- Join over 91,500 MailPuppy Users Today! http://www.MailPuppy.com Powered by Outblaze --------________--------________-------- From bo at dendarii.com Sun May 4 17:15:48 2003 From: bo at dendarii.com (Bo Johansson) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:15:48 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Where are the Orthodox? References: <1052039980.993.5.camel@orac> Message-ID: <005b01c31258$6f0f46c0$f86c72d5@bredbandsbolaget.se> On Sunday, May 04, 2003 11:19 AM [GMT+1=CET], Anita Neal wrote: > Given the extensive presence of both Greeks and Russians in the > settlement of Barrayar, where is the Orthodox Church? One > would imagine the various Counts and Emperors studiously > encouraging any church or religion which would be a > stabilising force, and Orthodoxy has certainly fulfilled this > role for centuries. Or have I missed something? -- It seems to me that Barrayar is mostly non-religious, maybe because the settlers were mostly non-religious Europeans. I think it is mostly Americans that find it strange to have so little religion. // Bo Johansson --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Sun May 4 17:36:36 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 11:36:36 -0500 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/4 @ 11:30AM CDT Message-ID: <20030504163636.GB20415@fireopal.org> See the current info web page at - it also has the list of who's asked to be included in the read, sign & pass along copy - http://www.fireopal.org/~sraun/lmb_pos_auction.html The current high bids are: rparks at lvhot.org $225 5/3, 2:21PM ndrosen at erols.com $200 5/3, 8:53AM carosue at centurytel.net $175 5/3, 11:00PM There are currently twenty-eight people signed up for the read, sign & pass-along copy. (Hmm - I think I got the number wrong on the last update - it HASN'T gone up by nine in the last 12 hours.) -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sun May 4 18:39:08 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 10:39:08 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Comment from my newest convert In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030504173908.GA4430@ofb.net> On Sat, May 03, 2003 at 10:54:28PM -0700, lorraine fletez-brant wrote: > subconsciously). It seemed to me that his Vorkosigan identity became, for > him, almost a shell. Naismith had all the excitement, the power, the women, "I don't have time to be playing Lieutenant Vorkosigan." "Lose track, did you?" Brothers in Arms I think, more or less. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sun May 4 18:49:13 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 10:49:13 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Oddball LMB Reference In-Reply-To: References: <045e01c31005$e33b96c0$6c3a0144@Laptop> Message-ID: <20030504174913.GB4430@ofb.net> > MAPS: So here's one thing that bugs me about some fantasy and science > fiction books -- if you're creating a whole new world (or using What bugs me are the maps which don't actually help. Diana Wynne Jones mocked them in _The Tough Guide to Fantasyland_ and I got an example in Cherryh's Fortress series. The map has some political boundaries and maybe a river and some mountains and that's it. The action takes place between a tower and a town and a city... none of which are marked. So where are they? "Somewhere here, maybe." Pfeh. And it's weird to look at a map and not see any settlements, like no one actually lives there. I suspect Cherryh did it deliberately, because she likes that lost and lonely feeling. Vs. Glen Cook's Black Company books, which don't have maps, but I'm convinced that if they did cities would be marked all over the place, largely because cities are important and real in those books. I don't remember Vor Game having a map, but I just found one in Young Miles. Cool. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Sun May 4 19:09:17 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 13:09:17 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Where are the Orthodox? In-Reply-To: <005b01c31258$6f0f46c0$f86c72d5@bredbandsbolaget.se> Message-ID: <3EB510FD.20699.9F6AAB@localhost> Bo Johansson wrote: > It seems to me that Barrayar is mostly non-religious, maybe > because the settlers were mostly non-religious Europeans. I think it > is mostly Americans that find it strange to have so little religion. Perhaps. However, the religious establishments in Greece and Russia are still quite powerful. If I recall news reports correctly, the government of Greece has taken quite a bit of flak over a proposal to remove one's religious affiliation from (national?) ID cards, while in Russia various non-Orthodox churches - notably the Salvation Army, which has been classed as a militant organization - have had legal and other barriers imposed on them in the last decade or so. France, yes, is very much secularized, and Britain somewhat less so. How things will develop in Russia as democratization progresses (if it does) is an open question, of course. Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Sun May 4 19:56:57 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 14:56:57 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Naismith/Vorkosigan Message-ID: <78.3e923666.2be6bc79@aol.com> In a message dated 5/4/2003 7:02:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Isn't the Naismith in WA who got Bothari killed just the more immature side of Miles? After all, in WA he was seventeen years old! Doesn't every seventeen-year-old you have ever met feel like he/she could solve all the problems of the world if somebody would just make _them_ the boss? Until things get really sticky, that is. And in WA, circumstances (with a little help from Miles) did make him the boss. Anyway, I think it's what makes teenagers fun--they haven't rammed their heads against the walls all us older types have long enough to realize just how little one person can do, so sometimes they go out and succeed in doing something we've all thought was impossible for years. And Naismith isn't all that different from Miles Vorkosigan, anyway--remember at the end of WA when Aral and Elena have a huge laugh at Miles' expense when he tries to tell them that Naismith isn't as respectful as he himself is? Also, in BiA, when Miles is having to switch back and forth between personalities madly, we realize that Naismith has matured to the point where he really does seem to know what he's doing--Miles in both his identities has a genius for choosing the right people to delegate to, such as his accountant, Elena, even Ivan. I think they're just two not too different facets of the same personality--and I love both of them. Mary > Marna Nightingale asked: > >>>> > Which makes me wonder: those of you who don't like Miles: is it > Naismith you dislike, or the whole package? Do you like Miles > Vorkosigan better? > <<<< > > I definitely dislike Naismith and his whole "I know what's best" attitude - > I think it was the Naismith side that helped get Bothari killed. The > reason I got turned on to the series in the first place was because of > "Mountains of Mourning". Naismith seems to be Miles overcompensating > wildly, without considering anybody else's feelings. He's just lucky he's > actually competent, otherwise he would have been lynched a long time ago. > Vorkosigan is somebody we don't know too well yet - even Miles hardly knows > his Vorkosigan side any more after years of suppressing him. Hmmm, I think > a re-read may be in order. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Sun May 4 20:10:53 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 15:10:53 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Religions Message-ID: In a message dated 5/4/2003 7:02:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: That _is_ a good question--The only group in the Vorkoverse that I can think of offhand that practices any religion in a way that makes it seem a big part of their lives is the Athosians, who all believe in the same things. Some in Beta Colony must, for Cordelia to have such a strong sense of ethics as a part of a religion. However, the Vorkoverse seems to be going through one the periods when humanity seems to let its religions fade into the background. Not to say they don't exist, just that they are not pursued as something people fight wars over, etc. Perhaps humanity has grown up enough that it lets everyone worship as they choose, which would make it something personal, and probably taken for granted. Mary > Message: 12 > From: Anita Neal > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Date: 04 May 2003 21:19:43 +1200 > Subject: [LMB] Where are the Orthodox? > Reply-To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > Given the extensive presence of both Greeks and Russians in the > settlement of Barrayar, where is the Orthodox Church? One would imagine > the various Counts and Emperors studiously encouraging any church or > religion which would be a stabilising force, and Orthodoxy has certainly > fulfilled this role for centuries. Or have I missed something? > -- > Anita Neal --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Sun May 4 20:42:23 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 12:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Joy In-Reply-To: <200305041101.h44B1er5026090@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Oh Joy, My heart goes out to you. Upon reflection, Becki's parting blessing in her toast must now be doubly precious to you. But on the other hand to find that her illness took her when you were off enjoying being newly married has to have been a wrench filled with 'if onlys' to any compassionate soul. Please accept my kind wishes for a long and happy marriage, and may you find that the ways Becki has touched your life becoming more and more consciously a part of how you live your life. Susan in Seattle --------________--------________-------- From JoatSimeon at aol.com Sun May 4 23:55:46 2003 From: JoatSimeon at aol.com (JoatSimeon at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:55:46 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Religions Message-ID: <149.106d56fc.2be6f472@aol.com> In a message dated 5/4/03 1:12:58 PM Mountain Daylight Time, CatMtn at aol.com writes: > Perhaps humanity has grown up enough > that it lets everyone worship as they choose, which would make it something > > personal, and probably taken for granted. > -- or they've all adopted the Wiccan Rede... 8-). --------________--------________-------- From WaWenri at aol.com Mon May 5 01:20:22 2003 From: WaWenri at aol.com (WaWenri at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 20:20:22 EDT Subject: [LMB] Books OT: Message-ID: <55.3f08edd6.2be70846@aol.com> James Burbidge writes: > WaWenri at aol.com wrote: > > > >I just read the omnibus General series, Warlord and Conqueror. Five books > in > >one. Any comments? > > > >Bill Wenrich > > Belisarius? No, Raj Whitehall. Bill Wenrich --------________--------________-------- From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu Mon May 5 02:11:41 2003 From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (Andrew Lambdin-Abraham) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 20:11:41 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Books OT: In-Reply-To: <55.3f08edd6.2be70846@aol.com> Message-ID: <876F60EA-7E96-11D7-BF27-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu> On Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 07:20 PM, WaWenri at aol.com wrote: > James Burbidge writes: > >> WaWenri at aol.com wrote: >>> >>> I just read the omnibus General series, Warlord and Conqueror. Five >>> books >> in >>> one. Any comments? >>> >>> Bill Wenrich >> >> Belisarius? > > No, Raj Whitehall. > > Bill Wenrich Ahh. Belisarius in a (skimpy) disguise... Andrew --------________--------________-------- From braue at ratsnest.win.net Mon May 5 02:14:37 2003 From: braue at ratsnest.win.net (John W. Braue, III) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 21:14:37 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Religions References: Message-ID: <00e501c312a3$b5b65320$8166fea9@computer> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, 04 May, 2003 15:10 Subject: [LMB] Re: Religions > Perhaps humanity has grown up enough > that it lets everyone worship as they choose, which would make it something > personal, and probably taken for granted. Or, alternatively (as Bo Johannson suggested), the Firsters were atheistic or, at most deists. Finding that this was not spiritually acceptable in the pre-industrial miliey of the Isolation, they started reconstructing religious evolution, progressing as far as the notions that we find in the Vorkosigan books of the soul's survival after death upon receipt of the proper graveside sacrifices. ------------------------------------------------ John W. Braue, III http://www.win.net/ratsnest/log.htm "What's the matter, don't you think I'll be back?" -- last recorded words of Manfred, Freiherr von Richthofen ("The Red Baron") --------________--------________-------- From RayLists at quixnet.net Mon May 5 03:30:03 2003 From: RayLists at quixnet.net (Ray Drouillard) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:30:03 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Religions References: Message-ID: <007901c312ae$3cd1d5a0$508fd943@ray1000> From: > In a message dated 5/4/2003 7:02:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > > That _is_ a good question--The only group in the Vorkoverse that I can think > of offhand that practices any religion in a way that makes it seem a big part > of their lives is the Athosians, who all believe in the same things. Some in > Beta Colony must, for Cordelia to have such a strong sense of ethics as a > part of a religion. However, the Vorkoverse seems to be going through one > the periods when humanity seems to let its religions fade into the > background. Not to say they don't exist, just that they are not pursued as > something people fight wars over, etc. Perhaps humanity has grown up enough > that it lets everyone worship as they choose, which would make it something > personal, and probably taken for granted. I suspect that religion is there, but not mentioned much in the stories -- sort of like sports. Cordelia's assurance to Bothari that "blood washes away sin" came straight from Christianity -- though Judaism employs that concept to some extent. Ray Drouillard --------________--------________-------- From litalex at slashyalex.com Mon May 5 03:32:16 2003 From: litalex at slashyalex.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 19:32:16 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: Religions In-Reply-To: <007901c312ae$3cd1d5a0$508fd943@ray1000> References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030504192751.00bc6b58@slashyalex.com> Hello, At 19:30 05/04/2003, Ray Drouillard wrote: >Cordelia's assurance to Bothari that "blood washes away sin" came straight >from Christianity -- though Judaism employs that concept to some extent. Not exactly. There are a number of other cultures, regardless of religious inclinations, that employs the same concept, afaik. So it could very be just a logical evolution from a culture that places so much importance on honor and duty. little Alex --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Mon May 5 03:35:24 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 21:35:24 -0500 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/4 @ 9:30PM CDT Message-ID: <20030505023524.GA24456@fireopal.org> See the current info web page at - it also has the list of who's asked to be included in the read, sign & pass along copy - http://www.fireopal.org/~sraun/lmb_pos_auction.html The current high bids are: rparks at lvhot.org $225 5/3, 2:21PM Robert at WarnickeLittler.com $205 5/4, 12:34PM ndrosen at erols.com $200 5/3, 8:53AM There are currently thirty-one people signed up for the read, sign & pass-along copy. (Hmm - and now I think I have some identifier / location pairs wrong. Ah, well - I'll look at it tomorrow. If I discover I've done something irreparable, I'll yell for help then!) -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From kappainfometrics5 at attbi.com Mon May 5 06:20:54 2003 From: kappainfometrics5 at attbi.com (Jill Wyrtham) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 23:20:54 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion References: <007901c312ae$3cd1d5a0$508fd943@ray1000> Message-ID: <000f01c312c6$1a00f200$9e19fea9@attbi.com> (I'm back from the nether reaches of the Middle East. All I can say is, I'm glad to be back!) Has anyone besides me wondered if the use of a Christian phrase ("God the Father") in the Athosian religion is a bit of a tail-tweak to fundamentalism? I mean, these are strict homosexuals and IIRC the Christian fundamentalist perspective is that homosexuality is a d*mning offense (in the theological sense, as in d*mning to H*ll). Now, in terms of original s*n and stuff I guess the Athosian doctrine was pretty much textbook, but boy didn't they have an interesting slant on it!!!?!!! Just my .02 credits worth... Jill **Tehporp: the spokesperson for a dyslexic deity (aka a Dog)** --------________--------________-------- From RayLists at quixnet.net Mon May 5 07:08:36 2003 From: RayLists at quixnet.net (Ray Drouillard) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 02:08:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion References: <007901c312ae$3cd1d5a0$508fd943@ray1000> <000f01c312c6$1a00f200$9e19fea9@attbi.com> Message-ID: <019901c312cc$c4a853a0$508fd943@ray1000> From: "Jill Wyrtham" > (I'm back from the nether reaches of the Middle East. All I can say is, I'm > glad to be back!) > > Has anyone besides me wondered if the use of a Christian phrase ("God the > Father") in the Athosian religion is a bit of a tail-tweak to > fundamentalism? I mean, these are strict homosexuals and IIRC the Christian > fundamentalist perspective is that homosexuality is a d*mning offense (in > the theological sense, as in d*mning to H*ll). Now, in terms of original s*n > and stuff I guess the Athosian doctrine was pretty much textbook, but boy > didn't they have an interesting slant on it!!!?!!! It's been a long time since I read _EoA_, but I always took their religion to be a direct take-off from Christianity. I don't think that Lois meant it as a tail-tweak or anything like that. I believe I read somewhere that the original colonists of Athos intended for their descendants to live a celibate life, and that the homosexual relations that ensued were not blessed by the religious folk. By the way, homosexuality is not seen as a damning offence by Christians. Some say that there is one unpardonable sin (which has to do with blasphemy, not sex), and some say that the first group is misreading the scriptures and that there is no unpardonable sin. It is true that homosexuality is seen as a particularly vile sin by many, but it is really on the same level as fornication, adultery, and the like -- in other words, something that many Christians indulge in. It is the very human revulsion for the act [1] that causes all the hubbub. In other words, a bunch of people have found a good excuse to go on a rampage against homosexuals, and have done so. [2] Ray Drouillard (who is trying not to offend anyone, and who apologizes in advance for any language that may be taken the wrong way) [1] Remember when you were young and someone told you where babies came from? Perhaps you insisted that "My mom and dad would NEVER do that!" LOL Those who don't have a desire to perform some act is likely to see it as revolting. [2] We could easily get into a discussion about nature vs. nurture, choosing one's orientation, and lots of other issues. If we wish to do so, we must realize that the probability of offending someone is great. --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Mon May 5 06:59:15 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 22:59:15 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Paladin of Souls ARC Message-ID: <3EB5FDB3.8060305@lvhot.org> FYI, there is one on Ebay, price is something over $60. Yeah, of course I bid on it. If I have a spare, I won't worry about circulating one of them. Also, FYI, I bid as Trolleypup. There is another one up now, price over $30. yeah. I bid on that one too. So I have some kinda addiction. So sue me. Robert -- . . . (scientists) scrabbling to record the mere existence of species before they become extinct, it is like someone hurrying through a burning library desperately trying to jot down some of the titles of books that will never now be read. [Last Chance to See-Adams/Carwardine] --------________--------________-------- From dtilque at nwlink.com Mon May 5 08:29:12 2003 From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 00:29:12 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: Religions References: <007901c312ae$3cd1d5a0$508fd943@ray1000> Message-ID: <009f01c312d8$07512460$507dadcf@nwlink.com> Ray Drouillard performed an arpeggio on a keyboard and produced: > > Cordelia's assurance to Bothari that "blood washes away sin" That's probably the most overtly religious line in the canon, except for possibly some of Suegar's lines in BoI. Yet, I thought it was Bothari who first said it. If so, he may have had some kind of religious upbringing. Besides that, occasionally Barrayarans will exclaim by invoking God. Miles and Ivan, for example, sometimes produce an exclamation of "God", "My God" or "Thank God" or something along those lines. Never "Jesus" though. Perhaps this is an indication that some kind of Deism is practiced on Barrayar. OTOH, maybe we shouldn't read too much into this. After all, many non-religious people here-and-now will produce all kinds of profanity in moments of excitement. It doesn't mean they've started believing in God. -- Dan Tilque --------________--------________-------- From theneals at xtra.co.nz Mon May 5 09:26:43 2003 From: theneals at xtra.co.nz (Anita Neal) Date: 05 May 2003 20:26:43 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: Religions In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030504192751.00bc6b58@slashyalex.com> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030504192751.00bc6b58@slashyalex.com> Message-ID: <1052123201.1090.16.camel@orac> On Mon, 2003-05-05 at 14:32, Alexandra Y. Kwan wrote: > Hello, > > At 19:30 05/04/2003, Ray Drouillard wrote: > >Cordelia's assurance to Bothari that "blood washes away sin" came straight > >from Christianity -- though Judaism employs that concept to some extent. > > Not exactly. There are a number of other cultures, regardless of religious > inclinations, that employs the same concept, afaik. > > So it could very be just a logical evolution from a culture that places so > much importance on honor and duty. > > little Alex Actually there are a number of what I interpret as recognisably Christian references in the books - eg in MD Mark thinks at one point "I am being poured out like water" and wonders where the quote came from, thinking perhaps it's from Cordelia. In fact it's from the New Testament. Miles' words to Bothari at his grave at the end of tWA seem overtly Christian to me with their references to grace and mercy. In ACC there's a brief reference to some viewing Miles' deformities as "an outward and visible form of an inward and invisible poison"; one definition of a sacrament is "an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace". I'm not sure what the significance of this is, if any. At the very least it shows a certain level of knowledge on the part of the author. To return to my original question, though, I do think that since the story of Baba Yaga has survived on Barrayar, the Orthodox church or at least some echo of the Christian faith would survive, at least on the level of folk religion. And given the historic role of state-sponsored religion in propping up authoritarian regimes, I really would have imagined the presence of some elderly man wearing a dress and a funny hat at coronations, royal weddings and such. -- Anita Neal --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Mon May 5 11:37:35 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 06:37:35 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion References: <007901c312ae$3cd1d5a0$508fd943@ray1000> <000f01c312c6$1a00f200$9e19fea9@attbi.com> <019901c312cc$c4a853a0$508fd943@ray1000> Message-ID: <3EB63EE8.10971B67@redmaplegrove.org> Ray Drouillard wrote: > [2] We could easily get into a discussion about nature vs. nurture, choosing > one's orientation, and lots of other issues. If we wish to do so, we must > realize that the probability of offending someone is great. I believe that the last time it came up onlist we established that becoming queer is a matter of neither nature nor nurture, but that rather there is a rigorous selection process requiring first a multiple-choice skill-testing exam to ensure that all applicants meet certain basic standards, followed by a formal application process, after which all applications are reviewed by the World Queer Committee jury (which meets four times a year in a location I am unable to disclose) and finalists are selected. These finalists are then given the opportunity to display their qualifications in a number of areas during a two week period of testing, after which those who have made an acceptable showing are presented with a set of Pride rings and permitted thereafter to use the initials F.O.D. after their names. The list then turned its attention to a discussion of whether homophobia was a matter of nature or nurture, with some debate about whether sufferers might be helped by medication, cognitive therapy, or behavioural therapy using electroshock. There was some fringe support for criminalizing homophobia from those who argued that it was a conscious choice, but in the main I think we agreed that these poor twisted souls were sick, and were therefore more to be pitied than censured, and should be offered all the help we could give them. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From caroline at sympatico.ca Mon May 5 13:06:14 2003 From: caroline at sympatico.ca (Caroline Wong) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 08:06:14 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: [LMB]OT: Athosian Religion References: <007901c312ae$3cd1d5a0$508fd943@ray1000> <000f01c312c6$1a00f200$9e19fea9@attbi.com> <019901c312cc$c4a853a0$508fd943@ray1000> Message-ID: <09f901c312fe$b9b47370$2b05fea9@samuel> Ray Drouillard: > It is true that homosexuality is seen as a particularly vile sin by many, > but it is really on the same level as fornication, adultery, and the like -- > in other words, something that many Christians indulge in. > Caroline: It's also human nature to be extra self-righteous about 'sins' that one is not tempted to commit. IMHO C.S. Lewis has the right stance when he said he will not preach about homosexuality or gambling because he has never been tempted to commit either one. --------________--------________-------- From Cathal1950 at aol.com Mon May 5 13:23:06 2003 From: Cathal1950 at aol.com (Cathal1950 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 08:23:06 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Religions Message-ID: <1cf.8f602f9.2be7b1aa@aol.com> Cordelia, who seems to be very well educated - but see the butterbug man's remarks about choosing Betan scouts - and must have had some meaningful contact with the beliefs to use them under stress, has various approaches to them: In SOH she displays a very proper meditation pose 'right toe crossed correctly over left' but lets her mind drift hoping to give he captors the unsettling impression of 'deep and possibly dangerous psychic meditations'. But then to Bothari...shaken with a pity almost like love:..some healing words, "I believe that the tormented are very close to God." Then to Ges.. "...I'll have to leave that to the Infinity Merciful. You exceed my capacity." To help Bothari she says to him, "Look, see, you're washed in blood, Blood washes away sin, right?" It may only have been her voice, but I think there was some idea of what she means, since he says it to Miles, who tells his mother when she remarks that his hands are bleeding as he digs Bothari's grave, that Bothari told him that blood washes away sin (which I take to be at the least, Mile's own in getting Bothari killed) After she knocks Bothari out, she tries a joke to calm herself "this wasn't' in my job description" but them fell back and an older and more serious discipline, whispering its words aloud. She easily picks up on and throws back at him, Piotr's beliefs when she says of her father that he is not dead while she is alive to remember him. I would seem that on Beta, indeed, each person is free to her own beliefs (good question is from where they come -- her mother, education and then choosing...?) The human Diaspora in the nexus seems to have had available some very condensed encyclopedia of earth cultures to go with it, used, lost as it mayhave been. Ges says ..hears voices like Joan of Arc...demons not saints. And Esar says to Cordelia that she is "some sort of a theist" "I am an atheist myself, a simple faith but a great comfort to these last days" And she replies "Yes, I have often felt the pull of it myself." Somewhere Aral says to her, I thought you believed there was meaning in that sort of thing ..And she replies, [yes, sometimes, but most of the time it's just...knocking about in the dark..trying..] So he is not un-understanding of her thoughts in that direction. So Beta and Barrayar have something in common. Julian --------________--------________-------- From jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu Mon May 5 16:31:08 2003 From: jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu (Jason Bontrager) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 10:31:08 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion References: <007901c312ae$3cd1d5a0$508fd943@ray1000> <000f01c312c6$1a00f200$9e19fea9@attbi.com> Message-ID: <3EB683BC.8050804@mail.utexas.edu> Jill Wyrtham wrote: > (I'm back from the nether reaches of the Middle East. All I can say is, I'm > glad to be back!) > > Has anyone besides me wondered if the use of a Christian phrase ("God the > Father") in the Athosian religion is a bit of a tail-tweak to > fundamentalism? I mean, these are strict homosexuals and IIRC the Christian > fundamentalist perspective is that homosexuality is a d*mning offense (in > the theological sense, as in d*mning to H*ll). Given Athosianism's extreme misogny I'd have to wonder if they weren't at least influenced by Islam. Women have been reduced even beyond the walking pylons that the Taliban turned them into. Admittedly Islam is apparently (based on my limited understanding of it) extremely homophobic as well, but if the original founders intended their descendents to be celibate then the later development of homosexual relations (of which I believe there is a significant presence in traditional Arab culture) wouldn't necessarily exclude an Islamic origin for thier faith. Jason B. --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Mon May 5 17:09:18 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 09:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion In-Reply-To: <3EB683BC.8050804@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <20030505090749.L51169-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Mon, 5 May 2003, Jason Bontrager wrote: > Given Athosianism's extreme misogny I'd have to wonder if they weren't > at least influenced by Islam. Women have been reduced even beyond the > walking pylons that the Taliban turned them into. Doubt it. There's a famous monastery in Greece on Mt. ATHOS where women are not permitted to set foot, and it's Christian--Orthodox Christian I believe. I think I heard once that they don't even have female animals there. And there is some whacko Christian Reconstructionist literature out there that is very Talibanesque. ~malfoy :/ ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov Mon May 5 17:13:48 2003 From: lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov (Jagoda, Lynette K) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 09:13:48 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: From Bart - FW: EJECT EJECT EJECT Message-ID: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D2003440F@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> I am sharing the whole thing because I am too happy and busy to try and edit it. Lynette <---- ----FW: EJECT EJECT EJECT--- Three months ago I was being launced out to Fort Polk, La. for mobilization with the intention of being in far south-eastern Turkey within the week. Two months ago I was being (finally) launched out of Fort Polk as part of a 2-man early team to advise commanders of issues regarding operations in the northern Iraq oilfields with a "be prepared to" contingency of going in with the 173rd as a paratrooper as well as via ground route with the 4ID. Three weeks ago I was in a secure bunker in Italy, doing wargaming and being written into the plan for SETAF going into Northern Iraq. Two weeks ago I was back in Germany, being spun up on going in as part of a Phase IV team into Northern Iraq to help out with rebulding. One weeks ago I was still in Germany, being spun up on going into the Balkans (since I missed the first trip due to being in Italy) to work waste management issues in the camps there. Now I'm placing my head firmly against the headrest, reaching up to the big yellow "chicken handles", and pulling down sharply keeping my hands and arms within the shoulder rest. I have been told there is no longer a mission for my unit and there is no way for me to make a signficant contribution (although some guys are staying on for other reasons, working as needed by the unit here as additional assets.) As much as its really odd and frustrating to be on the batting roster for a third time (Panama and Desert Storm before this) but never got to step up to the plate, such is the way things are. I have an itenerary that puts me on a Big Iron Bird heading back to the Land of the Big PX (even if it is Fort Polk) this Thursday. It looks like by the end of next week I should be on terminal leave enjoying the company of my wonderful family (with the following week being my concerted effort to re-start my business, taking up the slack with the boys and housework, etc.) Now, I won't fully believe I'm heading back until I'm on the plane, and I won't believe I'm going home until I see Vicksburg in our van's rear-view mirror with a large stack of duffles in the back and baby slobber on my shoulders. A lot of things could happen, the one of the most bizzare being some yahoo at Dept. of the Army looking down from on high at us down in Fort Polk and saying to himself, "Self, those guys are still on orders until early Feb. 2004 but by coming home they have re-set their 179 days overseas clock, so we can use them xxxxxxx." It is a non-zero possibility. So, that is the latest from the Land of Spin-Ex. Back to work doing piping and pump work. I've done finite element analyses, computation fluid dynamics, did some equipment audits and process audits, run calcs on structures, combustion, heat transfer, fluid flow, and other stuff as well as combat operations planning and wargaming, so I have been doing something other than collect a paycheck. We've always tried to keep our finances so that my active duty paycheck can take care of it all, but its been rough given I've billed out about twice my Army pay the last few years. We've had a lot of help, though. Rayma has been doing all the heavy lifting-I just do what I'm told and avoid being dead. Now it looks like I *may* be home soon (for at least a little while, between the Reserves and our business). We'll see. bart --------________--------________-------- From litalex at slashyalex.com Mon May 5 17:20:54 2003 From: litalex at slashyalex.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 12:20:54 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion Message-ID: Hello, I was going to snip and trim, but I found the whole passage far too invaluable and hilarious to snip, so I'm leaving it intact (though below my message). Anyway, Marna, if I haven't said it before, I'm saying it now: I love you and will you marry me (or whatever the Amoeba deems the equivalent)? :-D And oh, how many do I have to recruit for that microwave (I know the usual item is toaster oven, but I need a microwave more)? little Alex :^) Marna wrote: > I believe that the last time it came up onlist we established that > becoming queer is a matter of neither nature nor nurture, but that > rather there is a rigorous selection process requiring first a > multiple-choice skill-testing exam to ensure that all applicants meet > certain basic standards, followed by a formal application process, > after which all applications are reviewed by the World Queer Committee > jury (which meets four times a year in a location I am unable to > disclose) and finalists are selected. These finalists are then given > the opportunity to display their qualifications in a number of areas > during a two week period of testing, after which those who have made > an acceptable showing are presented with a set of Pride rings and > permitted thereafter to use the initials F.O.D. after their names. > > The list then turned its attention to a discussion of whether > homophobia was a matter of nature or nurture, with some debate about > whether sufferers might be helped by medication, cognitive therapy, or > behavioural therapy using electroshock. There was some fringe support > for criminalizing homophobia from those who argued that it was a > conscious choice, but in the main I think we agreed that these poor > twisted souls were sick, and were therefore more to be pitied than > censured, and should be offered all the help we could give them. > > Marna. --------________--------________-------- From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu Mon May 5 17:36:40 2003 From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (Andrew Lambdin-Abraham) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 11:36:40 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Inter-Listie Fun & History (was Athosian Religion) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To think I just spent almost all of last night archive diving reading up on my proposal to the Pilot[1], and then this comes along... I On Monday, May 5, 2003, at 11:20 AM, Alexandra Y. Kwan wrote: > Anyway, Marna, if I haven't said it before, I'm saying it now: I love > you and will you marry me (or whatever the Amoeba deems the > equivalent)? :-D I find the idea of the Amoeba having member(s) very close to my age quite compelling... :-D > And oh, how many do I have to recruit for that microwave (I know the > usual item is toaster oven, but I need a microwave more)? I think I was deemed about worthy of one the attempted corruption of Scott[2], but then we got into an argument about points based on who initiated, and I'm not sure we got a final ruling. At any point, it's not hard to win the prize, unless I was operating at some handicap I wasn't aware of. Assuming you get past the multiple choice test (unless you're doing the poly option), I think you're a pretty safe bet. Andrew [1] Still haven't found the actual post yet. It was Right After the VorMuir's wedding, but I couldn't find a date for that online either. Further followup was in the Feb 2002 thread "Corruption of Texas Boyz", which unfortunately did not thread in the archives. [2] How was I to know reliably that I was Too Late? --------________--------________-------- From Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com Mon May 5 17:42:21 2003 From: Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com (Tom Vinson) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 11:42:21 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Religions Message-ID: On 5 May Anita Neal noted > In MD Mark thinks at one point "I am being poured out like > water" and wonders where the quote came from,... Psalm 22 (Hebrew numbering, 21 Greek and Latin): I am poured out like water; all my bones are out of joint; my heart within my breast is melting wax. (This psalm is also the source of the quote, "My G-d, my G-d, why have you forsaken me?") The psalms as a whole are a good source for an unexpurgated view of religion. ObBujold: Check your assumptions at the door. Tom --------________--------________-------- From kevink45 at hotmail.com Mon May 5 17:43:28 2003 From: kevink45 at hotmail.com (Kevin Kennedy) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 12:43:28 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Technical Question Message-ID: Already I have a question I hope someone can answer. I recieved a DVD player as a gift yesterday. As I don't own any DVD's yet, and it'll probably take forever to convert my video collection to DVD, I am reluctant to get rid of the VCR just yet. So I want to know if I can connect both to one TV without causing the end of the universe. The TV is old enough to vote, so I do need to go out and get an RF modulator(so says the instruction manual) And I'm not really an electronic genius, so any advice has to be very basic, although I did hook up the VCR all by myself. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From kevink45 at hotmail.com Mon May 5 17:46:43 2003 From: kevink45 at hotmail.com (Kevin Kennedy) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 12:46:43 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Religion in the nexus Message-ID: Don't forget Church Row or whatever we could call it, on Kline Station. Ethan noticed that the Athosian church didn't have a branch there. I'll look it up when I get home. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --------________--------________-------- From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Mon May 5 17:49:59 2003 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 12:49:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: Technical Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The short answer is most likely yes. We do it, and I know many others who do as well. The slightly longer answer is that depending on the model of DVD, you may not be able to link the VCR and DVD in series because of copy protection issues in the DVD (i.e. they don't want you to copy DVDs to tape). One solution that may work depending on your TV and VCR is to link the DVD output to the S-Video or Composite video input on the TV and the VCR to the normal VCR inputs (assuming the DVD has S-Video or Composite video outputs). It really depends on the TV and DVD player. On Mon, 5 May 2003, Kevin Kennedy wrote: > Already I have a question I hope someone can answer. I recieved a DVD player > as a gift yesterday. As I don't own any DVD's yet, and it'll probably take > forever to convert my video collection to DVD, I am reluctant to get rid of > the VCR just yet. So I want to know if I can connect both to one TV without > causing the end of the universe. The TV is old enough to vote, so I do need > to go out and get an RF modulator(so says the instruction manual) And I'm > not really an electronic genius, so any advice has to be very basic, > although I did hook up the VCR all by myself. -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire --------________--------________-------- From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu Mon May 5 17:57:56 2003 From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (Andrew Lambdin-Abraham) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 11:57:56 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Technical Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ok, what you need is what is called an RF cable. It's coaxial cable (you should recognize it from what you had running from your VCR to your TV. The order in which you want to hook them up is really up to you, barring technical troubles that are unforeseeable from a distance. If what I suggest doesn't work, please post the brand and model so we can look for online manuals and the like. I'm going to assume your VCR is fairly new, within the past 5 years or so. Therefore, it ought to have some RCA type connectors. They come in threes, red white and yellow. Red and white are the stereo sound, and yellow is the video. You'll want to get a 3 part RCA male to male cable (Radioshack is a decent place, or CompUSA and similar spots). Plug this into the Output ports on your DVD, and Inputs on your VCR. Make sure the yellow cable in on the yellow jacks at both ends, and so forth. I presume your VCR is already setup with the TV, so from here, all you need to do is set your VCR to either Channel 3 or 4 (try both, see which works) and it should just pass the DVD signal on through. If you're interested in watching DVDs a fair amount, Netflix.com has a pretty sweet setup. Check out DVDs, they're mailed to you, when you're finished with them, drop them back in the mail and they'll send you more. Andrew On Monday, May 5, 2003, at 11:43 AM, Kevin Kennedy wrote: > Already I have a question I hope someone can answer. I recieved a DVD > player as a gift yesterday. As I don't own any DVD's yet, and it'll > probably take forever to convert my video collection to DVD, I am > reluctant to get rid of the VCR just yet. So I want to know if I can > connect both to one TV without causing the end of the universe. The TV > is old enough to vote, so I do need to go out and get an RF > modulator(so says the instruction manual) And I'm not really an > electronic genius, so any advice has to be very basic, although I did > hook up the VCR all by myself. --------________--------________-------- From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Mon May 5 18:05:32 2003 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 13:05:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion In-Reply-To: <3EB683BC.8050804@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 2003, Jason Bontrager wrote: > Given Athosianism's extreme misogny I'd have to wonder if they weren't > at least influenced by Islam. Women have been reduced even beyond the > walking pylons that the Taliban turned them into. Admittedly Islam is > apparently (based on my limited understanding of it) extremely > homophobic as well, but if the original founders intended their > descendents to be celibate then the later development of homosexual > relations (of which I believe there is a significant presence in > traditional Arab culture) wouldn't necessarily exclude an Islamic origin > for thier faith. There's misogyny in some strains of the three faiths I know something about (Christianity, Islam, Judaism). For example, Presbyterianism (the strain of Christianity I was raised in) had a founder named John Knox who wrote the infamous "First Blast of the Trumpet against the Monstrous Regiment of Women", which he attempts to demonstrate the inferiority of women. Of course, the Presbyterian Church of the 20th/21st century has completely dropped that, while retaining more essential parts of the doctrine like reading and understanding the Bible for oneself. So, there's enough historical misogyny to go around to not blame just one faith. That being said, some sects of Islam (and by no means just the Taliban) are clearly oppressing women. I'd recommend reading: _The Price of Honor: Muslim women lift the veil of silence on the Islamic world_ by Jan Goodwin (Boston : Little, Brown, 1994) _Nine parts of desire : the hidden world of Islamic women_ by Geraldine Brooks (New York : Anchor Books, 1995) _The sewing circles of Herat : a personal voyage through Afghanistan_ by Christina Lamb (New York : HarperCollins, 2002) and more peripherally _The political language of Islam_ by Bernard Lewis (Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 1988) One certainly has to make an effort not to become very angry after reading some of the stories in those books. Getting back to Jason's point, there is a story recounted in the Lamb book about how many students in male-only religious schools in Pakistan (who later became Taliban) were molested by men who had no access to women (and despised women). There's an implication that that the victimhood of being molested may have led to those former students needing to oppress someone else, that being women. However, there's no implication that these men wanted to form a homosexual culture. I think this is a very touchy point, and I apologize in advance if I have inadvertently offended anyone. -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire --------________--------________-------- From lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov Mon May 5 18:21:28 2003 From: lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov (Jagoda, Lynette K) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 10:21:28 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Inter-Listie Fun & History Message-ID: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20725329@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> Original Impetuous Proposal From Andrew to Pilot and Pilot's reply: =-) Lynette <----- Who finds some things are just worth archiving in my personal folders for quick access *forever*... LOL -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Lambdin-Abraham Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 1:21 PM Subject: Re: Lois's Wedding Gift (and thus at least marginally ON topic) On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 12:37 PM, Padget, Scott R wrote: > I anticipate a sudden rash of highly-publicized list-weddings occurring > between completion and publication of each book. Marry me, Scott!!! I know you're already married, but it worked for Marna :-) G,D,R... Andrew ---- Pilot's Reply -----Original Message----- From: Padget, Scott R Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 10:09 PM Subject: OT: Marriage (was Re: Lois's Wedding Gift, etc) At 14:38:11 Andrew made the high and mighty claim: > I'm staying unmarried and then at 14:39:50 (less than 2 minutes later), shouted: > Marry me, Scott!!! Hah. A flighty and impulsive young thing like you? Surely you jest. I mean sure you're cute and bright and all that, but there are a few little difficulties (apart from that flightiness, clearly demonstrated above). First, I'm WAY too old for you. Then there's the aesthetic clash: you look so earnestly wholesome in that clean-cut Young Republican way (sorry if that wreaks havoc on your actual political beliefs) and I'm, well, shaggy and disreputable at best. Though we don't have to worry about religious differences (both being members of the Cult of MacIntosh). And we both have very similar culinary tastes (if it won't eat us, we eat it). And clearly we both have similarly-twisted senses of humor, and I can't argue with your literary preferences, and.... You know, this just might work. Oh, $% at ! I just remembered the dealbreaker--I'm *straight*! (It's *so* embarrassing when little factoids like that slip my mind!) :-) Okay. Enough of that. I now return you to your regularly-scheduled goofiness. Pilot Padget--who really wasn't expecting Andrew to be the first to jump at the idea, or at least certainly not in *this* direction :-D --------________--------________-------- From bo at dendarii.com Mon May 5 18:38:38 2003 From: bo at dendarii.com (Bo Johansson) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 19:38:38 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion References: Message-ID: <005501c3132d$29d225c0$f86c72d5@bredbandsbolaget.se> Marna wrote: > [...] becoming queer is a matter of neither nature nor nurture, > but that rather there is a rigorous selection process [...] > reviewed by the World Queer Committee jury [...] those > who have made an acceptable showing are presented with a set > of Pride rings and permitted thereafter to use the initials > F.O.D. after their names. Please explain "F.O.D.", because I suspect it is not the same as in aviation circles, where it means Foreign Object Damage, as when for example some tool is sucked into a jet engine. See http://www.fodnews.com/ // Bo Johansson --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Mon May 5 18:50:44 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 10:50:44 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion In-Reply-To: <3EB683BC.8050804@mail.utexas.edu> References: <007901c312ae$3cd1d5a0$508fd943@ray1000> <000f01c312c6$1a00f200$9e19fea9@attbi.com> <3EB683BC.8050804@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <20030505175044.GA29247@ofb.net> On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 10:31:08AM -0500, Jason Bontrager wrote: > Given Athosianism's extreme misogny I'd have to wonder if they weren't > at least influenced by Islam. Women have been reduced even beyond the As has already been suggested, all three of the Abrahamic religions have a rich history of misogyny and oppression to draw from. Seeing women as inherently sinful is I think easily found among medieval Christian writings. Eve, apple, and all that. It's All Her Fault. For a caricature of this see Caleb currently on "Buffy". And of course women weren't exactly equal in quiet a lot of other traditional cultures either; China and India and Africa all have their own exciting stories to contribute. If Christian societies today seem less misogynistic and more feminist, recall there's been a lot of change in them in recent centuries and decades: Enlightenment, suffrage, feminism, etc. You can re-read Jane Austen for a reminder that 19th century English women weren't that free, and I think much of the US had interesting restrictions on women owning property into the 1950s, although I don't know much detail and could be wrong. Mote, beam, eye, other's, etc. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov Mon May 5 19:28:53 2003 From: lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov (Jagoda, Lynette K) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 11:28:53 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Misogyny and Religion... Message-ID: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20034410@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> Jason B. Said Given Athosianism's extreme misogyny I'd have to wonder if they weren't at least influenced by ... End Snip-- This comment sparked several remarks about other religions and misogyny to which I have only one comment to add.... It is my personal belief, that there is a huge amount of room to do a "Chicken or the Egg" debate here. Misogyny develops/exists for many reasons and has been seen throughout many cultures regardless of "Religion"... Note the ancient Greeks... Add to this a personal and societal need to justify ones personal inclinations or beliefs, especially ones that defy "independent rational justification". This provides a strong impetus to find ground for/incorporate those beliefs into the "Religion" of the culture. Whatever that current religion might be. Lets face it, if one does believe in a "God" then "God says so" is the ultimate "trump" argument. And a useful tool for those who merely want their personal biases confirmed and are too close minded and lazy to search for real truth. So though selective reading/emphasis, or flat out later "additions" and arbitrary human decisions, things like slavery, misogyny, hatred for certain sects or cultures, etc often become sort of "embroidered" onto the fabric of many religions after the fact. Even if they are not part of the original tenets that make up the real threads of those tapestries. Sometimes these later cultural add-ons even the antitheses of those original tenets. Lynette <---- Who is always infuriated by people who pervert any religion for their own self interest... because ultimately, the divine purpose of religion is to change *us* into better people. Not for us to change the religion so it simply excuses and justifies who we currently are. "If it is one of the goals of religion to liberate mankind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, scientific reasoning can aid religion in yet another sense......By way of the understanding he achieves a far- reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man." Albert Einstein --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Mon May 5 19:49:19 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 14:49:19 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion References: <005501c3132d$29d225c0$f86c72d5@bredbandsbolaget.se> Message-ID: <3EB6B22F.3B478478@redmaplegrove.org> Bo Johansson wrote: > > Marna wrote: > > and permitted thereafter to use the initials > > F.O.D. after their names. > > Please explain "F.O.D.", because I suspect it is not the same as > in aviation circles, where it means Foreign Object Damage I kinda like that. Friend Of Dorothy, an old euphemism. cf. Armisted Maupin. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Mon May 5 20:03:23 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 15:03:23 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion References: Message-ID: <3EB6B57A.52FDE0DA@redmaplegrove.org> "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > Anyway, Marna, if I haven't said it before, I'm saying it now: I love > you and will you marry me (or whatever the Amoeba deems the > equivalent)? :-D Well, we'll see if you like me once you've met me and found out about all my obnoxious traits. I may not be the only candidate for your hand around here, you know... > And oh, how many do I have to recruit for that microwave (I know the > usual item is toaster oven, but I need a microwave more)? I thought microwaves come automatically with marriage, roomates, or shacking up, these days? Ian and I had two in the kitchen until I loaned one to the tenants, on account of we're both too stubborn to give our individually aquired ones away. And toasters have gotten cheap. I think we ought to hold out for iPods. As for how many recruitments, well, I'm all about self-evaluation. :-) You know, as far as my job as the Evil OverB*tch goes, this Amoeba is starting to make Make Love Not War look like a practicable approach to World Domination... Marna. --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Mon May 5 20:08:46 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 15:08:46 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Midwest Tornados OT: Talk to us, people... Message-ID: <3EB6B6BD.924C37BD@redmaplegrove.org> http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/05/05/tornadoes030505 Everyone ok? Marna. --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Mon May 5 20:35:37 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 12:35:37 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Inter-Listie Fun & History Message-ID: Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 10:21:28 -0700 "Jagoda, Lynette K" amuses mightily: >Original Impetuous Proposal From Andrew to Pilot and Pilot's reply: =-) < >Lynette <----- Who finds some things are just worth archiving in my >personal folders for quick access *forever*... LOL< Thank you, Lynette [and Andrew and Pilot], for a highly amusing moment during lunch! I remember Andrew posting about it a year ago, but I never saw Pilot's hilarious response. You've all highly improved my day! Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper with WAY too many deadlines this week _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Mon May 5 20:45:09 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 14:45:09 -0500 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/5 @ 2:30PM CDT Message-ID: <20030505194509.GA30524@fireopal.org> Sorry this update is a little late - it you've signed up for the read, sign & pass-along copy, would you please check and see that you are on the list? I had an artifact that was either a typo or a lost entry. See the current info web page at - it also has the list of who's asked to be included in the read, sign & pass along copy - http://www.fireopal.org/~sraun/lmb_pos_auction.html The current high bids are: carosue at centurytel.net $250 5/5, 1:27AM rparks at lvhot.org $225 5/3, 2:21PM Robert at WarnickeLittler.com $205 5/4, 12:34PM There are currently thirty-six people signed up for the read, sign & pass-along copy. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Mon May 5 20:54:37 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 12:54:37 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion OT: Message-ID: Damien Sullivan wrote: >On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 10:31:08AM -0500, Jason Bontrager wrote: >>Given Athosianism's extreme misogny I'd have to wonder if they weren't at >>least influenced by Islam. Women have been reduced even beyond the << >As has already been suggested, all three of the Abrahamic religions have a >rich history of misogyny and oppression to draw from. Seeing women as >inherently sinful is I think easily found among medieval Christian >writings. Eve, apple, and all that. It's All Her Fault. excellent wordage> Mote, beam, eye, other's, etc.< "Jagoda, Lynette K" added: >This comment sparked several remarks about other religions and misogyny to >which I have only one comment to add.... It is my personal belief, that >there is a huge amount of room to do a "Chicken or the Egg" debate here. >Misogyny develops/exists for many reasons and has been seen throughout many >cultures regardless of "Religion"< Hi, all! Thanks to Damien and Lynette (and a few others who wrote some similar passages) for their thoughtful responses regarding religion and misogyny. Others have set forth better detail, but I would like to add that Islam, the religion, has no more history of misogyny than Christianity. How the people of a culture choose to *interpret* the language of the Bible or Koran is a different matter. Not all Islamic countries have the same customs for the women, for that matter. Turkey has a secular government. Iranian women, before the Ayatollah and the Boys came to town, had a very "Western" range of freedoms. As some Saudi women friends (who had been my language students and then became friends) almost 20 years ago said, under Islam, women were allowed to retain their property when they married - all during the time when we and our possessions were chattel of our husbands...I had some very preconceived notions knocked out of my head when I got to know some Saudi women living here very well. I had an American friend say once that she couldn't stand not to be free, like the Islamic women who had to wear a head scarf. I asked her if she felt comfortable topless in public. Shocked, she said, of course not! Well, then, we aren't exactly "free" are we, I answered. It's all cultural. If you are taught that covering your hair is modest, you will feel uncomfortable with it blowing in the wind. Different customs do not necessarily evil make. I'm sure some European women would feel sorry for me in my onepiece bathing suit on a topless beach in France...and yet I don't feel like I'm not free... Lorraine - falling back off of the soapbox... _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Mon May 5 20:41:41 2003 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 20:41:41 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Religion in the nexus Message-ID: > From: Kevin Kennedy > Date: 05 May 2003 17:46 > > Don't forget Church Row or whatever we could call it, on Kline Station. > Ethan noticed that the Athosian church didn't have a branch there. I'll look > it up when I get home. Textelfing away [EoA ch 3 ] And theaters, and feelie-dream booths, and an arcade which, according to its directory, offered travelers the solace of some eighty-six officially established religions. Athos's, of course, was not among them. -- Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Mon May 5 21:21:39 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 16:21:39 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion OT: References: Message-ID: <3EB6C7D2.17051426@redmaplegrove.org> lorraine fletez-brant wrote: > As some Saudi women friends (who had been my language students > and then became friends) almost 20 years ago said, under Islam, women were > allowed to retain their property when they married - And the management therof. And they had property, because not only did their dowries remain theirs, they inherit and cannot be cut out of a parent's will -- half of a man's portion, true, but a man is required to support his family, while the woman's property is inviolate, for her future security and her children's. They also had to be supported until remarriage if divorced, and while Muhammad didn't ban wife-beating, he tried very hard to do so in the face of opposition from the Companions, and finally said that "it is permitted, but only the worst of you will resort to it". Western women didn't get some of those rights until the 20th century. > all during the time > when we and our possessions were chattel of our husbands...I had some very > preconceived notions knocked out of my head when I got to know some Saudi > women living here very well. The biggest shock to me when I was going to the mosque was getting to see the other side of gender segregation -- a lot of Muslim women find it funny how glued to our men we are. Honestly, we can't even get through services without them? :-) As for the hijab -- a woman in my department once said in exasperation, honestly, Westerners get all agitated about it, but then they treat us as if they thought our brains were solar-powered! Marna. --------________--------________-------- From christine at forber.net Mon May 5 21:35:36 2003 From: christine at forber.net (Christine Forber) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 16:35:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/5 @ 2:30PM CDT In-Reply-To: <20030505194509.GA30524@fireopal.org> Message-ID: At 02:45 PM 5/5/2003 -0500, Scott Raun wrote: > >http://www.fireopal.org/~sraun/lmb_pos_auction.html > >The current high bids are: > >carosue at centurytel.net $250 5/5, 1:27AM >rparks at lvhot.org $225 5/3, 2:21PM >Robert at WarnickeLittler.com $205 5/4, 12:34PM Interesting. There seem to be five people who are serious about wanting a copy and only 3 copies to be had. I can't wait to see what the highest bid ends up as. Christine --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Mon May 5 21:43:04 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 13:43:04 -0700 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/5 @ 2:30PM CDT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001f01c31346$edc5af60$31432904@earthlink.net> > >http://www.fireopal.org/~sraun/lmb_pos_auction.html > Interesting. There seem to be five people who are serious > about wanting a copy and only 3 copies to be had. I can't > wait to see what the highest bid ends up as. > > Christine Let's...see what happens. g,d,r Laura (with shuddering memories of the one time she got seriously involved in a Bujoldian-related auction. I wonder if Karl's recovered yet.) --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Mon May 5 21:38:56 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 15:38:56 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion In-Reply-To: <3EB6B22F.3B478478@redmaplegrove.org> References: <005501c3132d$29d225c0$f86c72d5@bredbandsbolaget.se> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030505153822.02dfa3a0@mail.iqcisp.com> At 02:49 PM 5/5/2003 -0400, Marna Nightingale wrote: >Bo Johansson wrote: > > > > Marna wrote: > > > and permitted thereafter to use the initials > > > F.O.D. after their names. > > > > Please explain "F.O.D.", because I suspect it is not the same as > > in aviation circles, where it means Foreign Object Damage > >I kinda like that. Friend Of Dorothy, an old euphemism. cf. Armisted >Maupin. And I was watching the DVD of "My Fellow Americans" last night, by coincidence. "Somewhere over the rainbow." Louann --------________--------________-------- From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Mon May 5 21:45:45 2003 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 16:45:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion (brought back on topic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 2003, lorraine fletez-brant wrote: > Thanks to Damien and Lynette (and a few others who wrote some similar > passages) for their thoughtful responses regarding religion and misogyny. > Others have set forth better detail, but I would like to add that Islam, the > religion, has no more history of misogyny than Christianity. Yup. The books I quoted mention this. > How the people > of a culture choose to *interpret* the language of the Bible or Koran is a > different matter. Not all Islamic countries have the same customs for the > women, for that matter. Turkey has a secular government. Iranian women, > before the Ayatollah and the Boys came to town, had a very "Western" range > of freedoms. As some Saudi women friends (who had been my language students > and then became friends) almost 20 years ago said, under Islam, women were > allowed to retain their property when they married - all during the time > when we and our possessions were chattel of our husbands...I had some very > preconceived notions knocked out of my head when I got to know some Saudi > women living here very well. > > I had an American friend say once that she couldn't stand not to be free, > like the Islamic women who had to wear a head scarf. I asked her if she felt > comfortable topless in public. Shocked, she said, of course not! Well, then, > we aren't exactly "free" are we, I answered. It's all cultural. If you are > taught that covering your hair is modest, you will feel uncomfortable with > it blowing in the wind. Different customs do not necessarily evil make. I'm > sure some European women would feel sorry for me in my onepiece bathing suit > on a topless beach in France...and yet I don't feel like I'm not free... My rule of thumb is whether you are able to walk 2km or ride a bike in the required attire -- in other words, does it interfere with daily physical activity and your daily life? On that basis, headscarves pass with flying colours -- you can even wear a bike helmet over them (and as a matter of fact, the most frequent requests for adult learn-to-bike-ride courses around here are from Muslim women). On the other hand, a burqa or chador does not pass. (Neither do Manolo Blahniks.) To bring this back on topic, a Betan sarong: no problem with bike riding or movement in general. Komarran tunic&trousers: ditto. Barrayaran long skirt: manageable with a skirt and chain guard and mixte/drop frame. Cetagandan haut robes: forget it. But they have float chairs, and presumably have been bioengineered not to need exercise? -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Mon May 5 21:47:26 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 16:47:26 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion References: <007901c312ae$3cd1d5a0$508fd943@ray1000> <000f01c312c6$1a00f200$9e19fea9@attbi.com> <3EB683BC.8050804@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <3EB6CDDC.31A8D30@redmaplegrove.org> Jason Bontrager wrote: > Given Athosianism's extreme misogny I'd have to wonder if they weren't > at least influenced by Islam. Or Augustine. Or Paul. Or Jerome. Thomas Aquinas? (though they all had, in their relations with actual women, numerous redeeming features, let it be said) Or Orthodox Judaism, some (not all) male practitioners of which still begin the day by thanking G*d for not making them a woman. (_Half the Kingdom_, an NFB movie about women in Judaism, contains a wonderful story, told by the very Orthodox AND very feminist Norma Jacobs, about how her husband, with whom she had had numerous inconclusive arguments about that prayer, was rocked back on his feet the day his 5 year old daughter came home from a class and said, all big-eyed and teary, "Daddy? YOU don't say that, do you?") This is not to slam ANY of the Abrahamic faiths. All three are patriarchal. All three have at least a large overlap in founding texts. Nor is it to stop the discussion, which I find fascinating. But 'MY patriarchy is better than YOUR patriarchy and BOTH of our patriarchies are better than THEIRS' is a real hazard of this sort of discussion, and usually unfruitful. All three are, and have been, seriously and genuinely struggling with these questions for a very long time, and will continue to do so. All three have practitioners and doctrines which are exceedingly homophobic and misogynistic, AND practitioners and doctrines which are exceedingly not-so. Divorced Orthodox Jewish women cannot remarry without a Get from their husbands. Some men withold these. Other men, equally Orthodox and accepting the basic structure, make it their business to make such men... uncomfortable ... until they Get Hip. Some Muslim men confine and abuse women. I also have heard conservative Muslim men furiously oppose the Taliban on the grounds that 'we are supposed to PROTECT women!" All I'm saying it, you want scriptural justification for misogyny and homophobia, I can get it for you wholesale, from almost anywhere. Hinduism? Buddhism? And, yes, Neo-Paganism too, for some values of "scriptural". Marna. --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Mon May 5 21:55:22 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 15:55:22 -0500 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/5 @ 2:30PM CDT In-Reply-To: References: <20030505194509.GA30524@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <20030505205522.GA31116@fireopal.org> On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 04:35:36PM -0400, Christine Forber wrote: > At 02:45 PM 5/5/2003 -0500, Scott Raun wrote: > > > >http://www.fireopal.org/~sraun/lmb_pos_auction.html > > > >The current high bids are: > > > >carosue at centurytel.net $250 5/5, 1:27AM > >rparks at lvhot.org $225 5/3, 2:21PM > >Robert at WarnickeLittler.com $205 5/4, 12:34PM > > Interesting. There seem to be five people who are serious about wanting a > copy and only 3 copies to be had. I can't wait to see what the highest bid > ends up as. Having just checked my personal archives - this is the list that claimed they were going to get the three copies on the 27th & 28th. Do we believe they can foretell the future? Or do they just have ... significantly large amounts of disposable income? -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From countryboy66 at mchsi.com Mon May 5 21:55:19 2003 From: countryboy66 at mchsi.com (Countryboy) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 15:55:19 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Midwest Tornados OT: Talk to us, people... References: <3EB6B6BD.924C37BD@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <009101c31348$a3c251a0$d18dd70c@MainComputer> Fine here in southern Illinois. We got some monster wind and rain, but no actual tornado. Countryboy (Allen) - a little tired after being up half the night listening to the wind blow and waiting to hear the dreaded creaking noise that means a tree limb is about to fall through your roof. Marna Nightingale asked: > http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/05/05/tornadoes030505 > > Everyone ok? > --------________--------________-------- From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Mon May 5 21:56:09 2003 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 16:56:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: Misogyny and Religion... In-Reply-To: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20034410@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 2003, Jagoda, Lynette K wrote: [...] > Add to this a personal and societal need to justify ones > personal inclinations or beliefs, especially ones that defy "independent > rational justification". This provides a strong impetus to find ground > for/incorporate those beliefs into the "Religion" of the culture. > Whatever that current religion might be. Lets face it, if one does > believe in a "God" then "God says so" is the ultimate "trump" argument. > And a useful tool for those who merely want their personal biases > confirmed and are too close minded and lazy to search for real truth. So > though selective reading/emphasis, or flat out later "additions" and > arbitrary human decisions, things like slavery, misogyny, hatred for > certain sects or cultures, etc often become sort of "embroidered" onto > the fabric of many religions after the fact. Even if they are not part > of the original tenets that make up the real threads of those > tapestries. Sometimes these later cultural add-ons even the antitheses > of those original tenets. Lynette <---- Who is always infuriated by > people who pervert any religion for their own self interest... because > ultimately, the divine purpose of religion is to change *us* into better > people. Not for us to change the religion so it simply excuses and > justifies who we currently are. Well said. Could you argue that the Gods in the Chalion-verse offset this inclination by acting through saints and divination? -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Mon May 5 22:04:20 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 17:04:20 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion (brought back on topic) References: Message-ID: <3EB6D1D2.D5960786@redmaplegrove.org> alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: > On the other hand, a burqa or chador does not pass. I'm less sure of that. You can ride a motorbike in a chador, if it's big enough to go over your pants and jacket (the prudent Muslim woman will of course ensure that her pants are heavy and wide enough to be both safe and modest when tucked into ankle-boots). I have a photo somewhere of Iranian women during the revolution wearing chador, army boots, jeans (you can just see one cuff) and, um, machine guns. It's all what you're used to. You can't do much in a burqua, especially if you can't let the hem or sleeves slip. (have you see the t-shirt going around Ottawa on young veiled Muslim women that says on the front "Do you think I'm hot?". I'm still not sure what I think of that one. ) > (Neither do Manolo Blahniks.) Heh. Or the Franco Sartos I just got (though I used to be able to do katas in 4 inch heels, and these are only 3 3/4. I learned because of the point you make -- if I couldn't, not just move, but MOVE in them if required, wearing them out in public didn't seem prudent. And you should see what it did for the precision of my footwork -- I ought to try it with fencing drills, out on the driveway, no, not on the gym floor.) Marna. --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Mon May 5 22:05:03 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 23:05:03 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Re: Joy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030505210503.26849.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> Thank you, Susan. Aaron and I are attending a Memorial Service in Champaign, IL this weekend, which I hope will bring some measure of peace to us both. If nothing else, perhaps I can bring myself to believe it's true... Joy --- Susan Profit a icrit : > Oh Joy, My heart goes out to you. Upon reflection, Becki's parting > blessing in her toast must now be doubly precious to you. But on the > other hand to find that her illness took her when you were off > enjoying being newly married has to have been a wrench filled with 'if > onlys' to any compassionate soul. > > Please accept my kind wishes for a long and happy marriage, and may > you find that the ways Becki has touched your life becoming more and > more consciously a part of how you live your life. > > Susan in Seattle > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Mon May 5 22:09:01 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 23:09:01 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: Misogyny and Religion... In-Reply-To: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20034410@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> Message-ID: <20030505210901.27638.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Jagoda, Lynette K" a icrit : > Jason B. Said > It is my personal belief, that there is a huge amount of room to do a > "Chicken or the Egg" debate here. Misogyny > develops/exists for many reasons and has been seen throughout many cultures I just finished an interesting book called, "When God Was a Woman," can't remember the author's name. There was an _awful_ lot of speculation, but the basic premise was that Long Ago, matriarchy and goddess-worship were far more common than patriarchy and god-worship, and that the female religions were gradually forced out by the male religions of Indo-European Invaders, and that the accompanying misogyny was not just a natural outgrowth of a patriarchal religion and culture, but a deliberate attempt to subjugate and plow under the goddess-worshipping religions. Fascinating, but I'm not sure how much credence I'd give it, considering that virtually every other word in the book was "probably," "seems to," or "perhaps." :-) Joy W. ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Mon May 5 22:11:25 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 23:11:25 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Marrying Marna, and Worldcon In-Reply-To: <3EB6B57A.52FDE0DA@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <20030505211125.13552.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> --- Marna Nightingale a icrit : > > Well, we'll see if you like me once you've met me and found out about > all my obnoxious traits. I may not be the only candidate for your > hand around here, you know... > And Alexandra is not the only candidate for yours! ;-) Aaron hasn't met you yet, but I've already done a good PR job, and he cooks. (I am useless for most things, but we're a package deal.) Well, barring matrimony, can we still get in on Hotel Bujoldia for Worldcon? I'm not sure yet how many days we'll be staying, but the hostel looks inviting. Joy Lanterman ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Mon May 5 22:12:36 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 17:12:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Joy References: <20030505210503.26849.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EB6D3C2.B102B0C8@redmaplegrove.org> Joyeuse wrote: > Thank you, Susan. Aaron and I are attending a Memorial Service in Champaign, > IL this weekend, which I hope will bring some measure of peace to us both. If > nothing else, perhaps I can bring myself to believe it's true... Oh, babe. usual lame-arse excuse: I meant to respond sooner, kept thinking I might actually think of something to say. Much love. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Joy}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} and {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Aaron}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Mon May 5 22:13:43 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 23:13:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030505211343.14012.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> --- lorraine fletez-brant a icrit : > > I had an American friend say once that she couldn't stand not to be free, > like the Islamic women who had to wear a head scarf. I asked her if she felt > comfortable topless in public. Shocked, she said, of course not! A blow for freedom: http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/04/23/odd.mermaid.reut/index.html Joy L, who would _love_ to be able to go topless in public...the sports bra is the best invention in the world. ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Mon May 5 22:22:45 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 17:22:45 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Marrying Marna, and Worldcon References: <20030505211125.13552.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EB6D622.B91FE01B@redmaplegrove.org> Joyeuse wrote: > And Alexandra is not the only candidate for yours! ;-) Aaron hasn't met you > yet, but I've already done a good PR job, and he cooks. (I am useless for most > things, The H*ll you say. Mind, I'm a package deal too. :-) > Well, barring matrimony, can we still get in on Hotel Bujoldia for Worldcon? > I'm not sure yet how many days we'll be staying, but the hostel looks inviting. Surely, Mrs Lanterman. :-) Ian is treating the "confirmed as of Sunday" number as the _low end_, for the purpose of talking to the hostel about What To Expect and maybe getting a good group rate. I'm expecting a snowball once we get to the point of having a big enough crowd to make it feel friendly. Oh, and James? The hostel has a kitchen. A NICE kitchen... We could do a listee room-party in that kitchen. Greedily, Marna. --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Mon May 5 22:24:02 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 17:24:02 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Misogyny and Religion... References: <20030505210901.27638.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EB6D66F.7C1A696D@redmaplegrove.org> Joyeuse wrote: > > --- "Jagoda, Lynette K" a icrit : > Jason B. Said > > > It is my personal belief, that there is a huge amount of room to do a > > "Chicken or the Egg" debate here. Misogyny > > develops/exists for many reasons and has been seen throughout many cultures > > I just finished an interesting book called, "When God Was a Woman," Merlin Stone. M. --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Mon May 5 22:28:05 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 14:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: Misogyny and Religion... In-Reply-To: <20030505210901.27638.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030505142543.I72308-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Mon, 5 May 2003, [iso-8859-1] Joyeuse wrote: > I just finished an interesting book called, "When God Was a > Woman," can't remember the author's name. There was an _awful_ > lot of speculation, but the basic premise was that Long Ago, > matriarchy and goddess-worship were far more common than > patriarchy and god-worship... Merlin Stone, and no, the book is rather more Wishful Thinking than Currently Accepted Scholarship. I was so devastated when I went to graduate school and found out how many things I believed (at one time, wholeheartedly and with a convert's zeal) about the history of paganism and witchcraft were simply Just Not True. It is one of the defining experiences of my life, actually. ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Mon May 5 22:30:45 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 14:30:45 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion OT: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030505213045.GA25015@ofb.net> On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 12:54:37PM -0700, lorraine fletez-brant wrote: > customs for the women, for that matter. Turkey has a secular government. > Iranian women, before the Ayatollah and the Boys came to town, had a very > "Western" range of freedoms. As some Saudi women friends (who had been my As did Iraqi women. And even after the Ayatollah, Iranian women vote and get elected to Parliament. Not that that's the most useful thing with the clerical veto, but still. More useful than Iraqi women having been able to vote. :) > I had an American friend say once that she couldn't stand not to be free, > like the Islamic women who had to wear a head scarf. I asked her if she > felt comfortable topless in public. Shocked, she said, of course not! Well, > then, we aren't exactly "free" are we, I answered. It's all cultural. If Heh. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From litalex at slashyalex.com Mon May 5 22:35:19 2003 From: litalex at slashyalex.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 14:35:19 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion OT: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030505135716.01e0ffa8@slashyalex.com> Hello, At 12:54 05/05/2003, lorraine fletez-brant wrote: >It's all cultural. If you are taught that covering your hair is modest, >you will feel uncomfortable with it blowing in the wind. Different customs >do not necessarily evil make. I'm sure some European women would feel >sorry for me in my onepiece bathing suit on a topless beach in >France...and yet I don't feel like I'm not free... Absolutely, but my stance is that one must first ask the question, "Will one suffer legal and/or physical consequences -- i.e. going to jail, getting beaten up -- for not following that particular custom?" If the answer is yes, then yes, one isn't free even if one doesn't realize it. If the consequences, on the other hand, are only social, then no, following that custom probably doesn't make one less free -- the issue then becomes the mere (!) choice between conformity vs. individualism. This is the answer I came up with after reading an article in one of the alternative student published newspapers on campus -- the article was written by a Muslim female student who was defending her choice to wear a head scarf (and excusing the countries that requires by law for women to cover their heads/faces/etc. completely). I appreciated all the student's arguments, even though I disagreed somewhat, but there wasn't anything I disagree violently with; so I couldn't figure out why it rankled me so much until one hour later, when I realized the above -- realized that the student has completely confused the issue because she was arguing that wearing a head scarf is better, but that argument is only relevant when one has the choice between wearing it or not. little Alex --------________--------________-------- From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz Mon May 5 22:42:07 2003 From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 09:42:07 +1200 Subject: [LMB] OT: Athosian Religion Message-ID: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F53702A7C98D@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> No, no, Alex, I bagsed her first! (I'm not sure when, but I'm sure I did) Such a cool summary, Marna, I needed a laugh! [busily forwarding it on to all and sundry...] Thanks, Tracy > -----Original Message----- > From: Alexandra Y. Kwan [mailto:litalex at slashyalex.com] > [snip] > > Anyway, Marna, if I haven't said it before, I'm saying it now: I love > you and will you marry me (or whatever the Amoeba deems the > equivalent)? :-D > [snip] --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Mon May 5 22:45:46 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 14:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion (brought back on topic) In-Reply-To: <200305052113.h45LDTr5000305@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: I can verify Alayne's thoughts that you can ride a bike in Barrayaran full skirts. I do it all the time, BUT I don't do it in fabric that isn't fairly sturdy (corduroy, twill, heavy wool) because no matter how well you try to keep the fabric out of the chain it will end up there. You just stay aware and if you feel it begin to tug, twitch it out of the way. Fine or lightweight fabircs won't hold up to that. And don't try it in a skirt that is longer than mid-calf or it will be dragging on the ground. A burqua would be manageable in a sturdy fabric but if you had one that had too restricted a field of vision (some of them have openwork screening for just the eye area) you will not have enough peripheral vision to be safe in traffic on your bike. But I never felt that Athos was Islamic in origin. As another pointed out, Mt. Athos is famous as a Greek Orthodox monastary that does not allow women. I always assumed that was the source for it, that it wasn't fear of women behind the use of 'God' but simply the idea that in a world filled with only men it was natural to assume the divinity was male too. Susan in Seattle --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Mon May 5 22:46:18 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 17:46:18 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Misogyny and Religion... References: <20030505142543.I72308-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <3EB6DBA7.9C0D84E@redmaplegrove.org> Azalais Malfoy wrote: > > On Mon, 5 May 2003, [iso-8859-1] Joyeuse wrote: > Merlin Stone, and no, the book is rather more Wishful Thinking > than Currently Accepted Scholarship. i can, however, recommend _Ancient Goddesses_, Goodison and Moore, eds. Stone, Gimbutas et al went out on some pretty serious limbs in their time. OTOH, the Matriarchal Prehistory thing goes back at least to Durkheim, Frazer, all those guys -- they just regarded it as a sign of "primitivism". The whole thing relies on the idea that Goddess = Empowered women. Uh, yeah. What both sides tended to overlook is that gender relations are always nuanced; for a lot of scholars, arguing that 'all cultures have been male-dominated' = 'all cultures have had pretty much the sort of structural, essentialist (Women And Men Are Fundamentally Different and Men Are Better) gender role stratification we find in historical Abrahamic culture', and that's just not true either. Women DID very often apparently have substantial access to power in the Ancient Near East -- MUCH more than they had later. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From carosue at centurytel.net Mon May 5 22:18:27 2003 From: carosue at centurytel.net (House of Unruly Fish) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 15:18:27 -0600 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/5 @ 2:30PM CDT In-Reply-To: <20030505205522.GA31116@fireopal.org> References: <20030505194509.GA30524@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030505151451.00b4e0c8@mail.so.centurytel.net> > > >carosue at centurytel.net $250 5/5, 1:27AM > > >rparks at lvhot.org $225 5/3, 2:21PM > > >Robert at WarnickeLittler.com $205 5/4, 12:34PM > > > > Interesting. There seem to be five people who are serious about wanting a > > copy and only 3 copies to be had. I can't wait to see what the highest bid > > ends up as. > >Having just checked my personal archives - this is the list that >claimed they were going to get the three copies on the 27th & 28th. > >Do we believe they can foretell the future? Not a precog so far as I know. :) > Or do they just have >... significantly large amounts of disposable income? Not actually disposable, but...a little adjustable, due to my business having a fund for acquisitions. And no, I am not secretly selling 800-some percent of stock in it on the side! Susan the Neon Nurse, hoping others will come and play for the Very Good Causes ++++++++++++++++++++++carosue at centurytel.net+++++++++++++++++++++ --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Mon May 5 22:47:45 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 14:47:45 -0700 Subject: [LMB] LMB] Athosian Religion OT: Message-ID: Alexandra Y. Kwan writes: Mon, 05 May 2003 14:35:19 -0700 >At 12:54 05/05/2003, lorraine fletez-brant wrote: >>It's all cultural. If you are taught that covering your hair is modest, >>you will feel uncomfortable with it blowing in the wind. Different customs >>do not necessarily evil make. I'm sure some European women would feel >>sorry for me in my onepiece bathing suit on a topless beach in >>France...and yet I don't feel like I'm not free...<< >Absolutely, but my stance is that one must first ask the question, "Will >one suffer legal and/or physical consequences -- i.e. going to jail, >getting beaten up -- for not following that particular custom?" If the >answer is yes, then yes, one isn't free even if one doesn't realize it. If >the consequences, on the other hand, are only social, then no, following >that custom probably doesn't make one less free -- the issue then becomes >the mere (!) choice between conformity vs. individualism. but that >argument is only relevant when one has the choice between wearing it or >not.< Hi, Little Alex! I see your point, but my example still stands. I guarantee you if I trot outside starkers right now, someone wearing some sort of official-looking raiment is going to help me become a guest of Sheriff Joe Arpaio's spacious and comfortable accommodations. I probably won't be beaten, but I'll certainly be jailed. So - TOTALLY free? No. We dress according to our own definitions of taste and custom. (btw, this is NOT a defense of caning women whose hems were showing under the burka by those Wild and Crazy Taliban Boyz. Geeez, those guys sure knew how to throw a party, didn't they?) Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Mon May 5 22:58:12 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 17:58:12 -0400 Subject: [LMB] LMB] Athosian Religion OT: References: Message-ID: <3EB6DE71.2A1199DC@redmaplegrove.org> lorraine fletez-brant wrote: > Hi, Little Alex! > > I see your point, but my example still stands. Also, at one point if you went to school in France wearing hijab, you would be sent home. No religious symbols allowed. And there was, in Canada, the issue of Mounties and Turbans, plus the de facto exclusion of men who COULD NOT uncover their heads from places where men were expected to do so (Legion halls, frex) OTOH, if vous want to wander around topless, Ontario allows this :-) Marna. --------________--------________-------- From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Mon May 5 22:59:13 2003 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 17:59:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion (now OT: again) In-Reply-To: <3EB6D1D2.D5960786@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: I should have also recommended: _Honeymoon in Purdah : an Iranian journey_ by Alison Wearing. Alison Wearing travelled through Iran meeting many people and seeing Iranian daily life in the mid-90s, in a really fascinating story. Her boyfriend pretended to be her husband and they pretended to be on their honeymoon. She gives him a pseudonym in the book but, according to press reports, it was Yann Martel (yes, the _Life of Pi_ Martel). The impression you get of Iranian women is that they manage to live and thrive despite all the restrictions. The dress restrictions she mentions most are the long coat (manteau), which isn't restrictive in itself, but is made of black polyester and unbearably hot (leading to heatstroke) at 40C. She describes a chador as a single large piece of very slippery fabric which one must put over oneself in more religious locations. Wearing says that it made it very difficult to even walk looking ahead because you had to clutch the fabric over your head and could not pin it down in any way and were constantly grabbing at it as it slipped. Sounded horrible, like a Sisyphean task. Also doesn't seem possible to ride a bike in. On Mon, 5 May 2003, Marna Nightingale wrote: > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: > > > On the other hand, a burqa or chador does not pass. > > I'm less sure of that. > > You can ride a motorbike in a chador, if it's big enough to go over > your pants and jacket (the prudent Muslim woman will of course ensure > that her pants are heavy and wide enough to be both safe and modest > when tucked into ankle-boots). > > I have a photo somewhere of Iranian women during the revolution > wearing chador, army boots, jeans (you can just see one cuff) and, um, > machine guns. > > It's all what you're used to. > > You can't do much in a burqua, especially if you can't let the hem or > sleeves slip. > > (have you see the t-shirt going around Ottawa on young veiled Muslim > women that says on the front "Do you think I'm hot?". I'm still not > sure what I think of that one. ) > > > (Neither do Manolo Blahniks.) > > Heh. Or the Franco Sartos I just got (though I used to be able to do > katas in 4 inch heels, and these are only 3 3/4. I learned because of > the point you make -- if I couldn't, not just move, but MOVE in them > if required, wearing them out in public didn't seem prudent. And you > should see what it did for the precision of my footwork -- I ought to > try it with fencing drills, out on the driveway, no, not on the gym > floor.) > > Marna. > -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire --------________--------________-------- From countryboy66 at mchsi.com Mon May 5 23:09:36 2003 From: countryboy66 at mchsi.com (Countryboy) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 17:09:36 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom References: <20030505211343.14012.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00eb01c31353$04410850$d18dd70c@MainComputer> Joyeuse said: > A blow for freedom: > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/04/23/odd.mermaid.reut/index.html > > Joy L, who would _love_ to be able to go topless in public...the sports bra is > the best invention in the world. > I had to explain to my 4 girls (10, 9, 9, and 7) (yes, twins), why boys are allowed to run around without a shirt and girls aren't. To be honest, the only answer I had was that it was against the law. Countryboy (Allen) - who also explained to his girls that he had no problems with women going topless. --------________--------________-------- From bhurt at spnz.org Mon May 5 23:52:51 2003 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 17:52:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <20030505211343.14012.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't know. I somehow have a problem with putting the right to go topless in the same category as, for example, the right of free speech, or the right for a trial by jury. And how is going topless *speech*? To me, at least, it's obvious that the first admendment was about communication- else why is speech, the press, religion, gathering, etc. all lumped together? The founding fathers listed every single mode of communication that existed back then and made them all free. Were they writting the consitution today, they'd be including radio, TV, and the internet as well. Wether or not it should be a crime is a different subject. But I don't see how going shirtless is *communication*. What does it mean? Note that communication may mean symbolic acts- like burning bras, or draft cards, or flags. So what is going topless meant to convey? What is it's symbology? Brian On Mon, 5 May 2003, Joyeuse wrote: > --- lorraine fletez-brant a icrit : > > > > I had an American friend say once that she couldn't stand not to be free, > > like the Islamic women who had to wear a head scarf. I asked her if she felt > > comfortable topless in public. Shocked, she said, of course not! > > > > A blow for freedom: > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/04/23/odd.mermaid.reut/index.html > > Joy L, who would _love_ to be able to go topless in public...the sports bra is > the best invention in the world. > > ___________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! > Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com > --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Mon May 5 23:53:20 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 15:53:20 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom Message-ID: Brian Hurt puzzles: Mon, 5 May 2003 17:52:51 -0500 (CDT) >I don't know. I somehow have a problem with putting the right to go topless in the same category as, for example, the right of free speech, or the right for a trial by jury.< It ain't! >Wether or not it should be a crime is a different subject. But I don't see >how going shirtless is *communication*. What does it mean? Note that >communication may mean symbolic acts- like burning bras, or draft cards, or >flags. So what is going topless meant to convey? What is it's symbology?< Hmm. Communication...Have you ever heard of semaphore?...Never mind . You must have missed the first part of the discussion. Not "freedom" as in the right to vote. "Freedom" to dress according to one's custom, not meaning that you are feeling subjugated. I don't feel oppressed because I would feel, well, nekkid if I were at a beach without a full bathing suit. And an Islamic woman who wears hijab (the head scarf) is not oppressed because she covers her hair according to her traditions. THAT was the topic, not freedom of speech. Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From Robert at WarnickeLittler.com Mon May 5 23:56:01 2003 From: Robert at WarnickeLittler.com (Robert Warnicke) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 15:56:01 -0700 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update In-Reply-To: <200305052113.h45LDTr5000305@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <001e01c31359$8072cc50$6e01a8c0@D6FL1B21> Christine wrote: > >The current high bids are: > > > >carosue at centurytel.net $250 5/5, 1:27AM > >rparks at lvhot.org $225 5/3, 2:21PM > >Robert at WarnickeLittler.com $205 5/4, 12:34PM > > Interesting. There seem to be five people who are serious about wanting a > copy and only 3 copies to be had. I can't wait to see what the highest bid > ends up as. > Bah Humbug! The proper description of this is not "Interesting" but "Expensive", and so far its $45 dollars cheaper to me than Carosue! Just out of curiosity, What did the Galley's go for on Ebay last time? -------- Robert W --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Mon May 5 23:56:09 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 17:56:09 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Paladin of Souls - quick thoughts (SPOILERS!) Message-ID: <20030505225609.GD32082@fireopal.org> My, oh my, what a roller coaster ride. I will say that Ista finishes the book _much_ happier than she started it! H E R E B E S P O I L E R S ! H E R E B E S P O I L E R S ! Ista goes off on a pilgrimage to get away from her overly-protective family. After a slow ramp up, somewhere about 10PM Sunday night the roller coaster ride started when there was this little kidnapping. Up until that point, I was being good, really I was! I finished it about 1AM today, and got to go to be to get up for work at 6:15AM. :-( Why is it that the Chalion heroes end up god-touched - usually / apparently by multiple gods? T H E R E B E S P O I L E R S ! T H E R E B E S P O I L E R S ! -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From dtilque at nwlink.com Mon May 5 23:31:16 2003 From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 15:31:16 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion References: <20030505090749.L51169-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <003f01c31356$0bd92040$3d7dadcf@nwlink.com> Azalais Malfoy performed an arpeggio on a keyboard and produced: > > Doubt it. There's a famous monastery in Greece on Mt. ATHOS > where women are not permitted to set foot, and it's > Christian--Orthodox Christian I believe. I think I heard once > that they don't even have female animals there. Cecil Adams did a column on Mt Athos: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010209.html which I recommend everyone reading. Obviously Mt Athos is where the name of the planet Athos comes from, although it's never mentioned in the book. Summary: There's actually 20 monasteries on the peninsula and some 2500 monks. And yes, female animals are excluded, except for cats. Also there are no roads, so you have to get there by boat. -- Dan Tilque --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Tue May 6 00:06:29 2003 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:06:29 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom References: <20030505211343.14012.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> <00eb01c31353$04410850$d18dd70c@MainComputer> Message-ID: <3EB6EE75.D75197DB@erols.com> Countryboy wrote: > Joyeuse said: > > > A blow for freedom: > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/04/23/odd.mermaid.reut/index.html > > > > Joy L, who would _love_ to be able to go topless in public...the sports > bra is > > the best invention in the world. > > > > I had to explain to my 4 girls (10, 9, 9, and 7) (yes, twins), why boys are > allowed to run around without a shirt and girls aren't. To be honest, the > only answer I had was that it was against the law. I went topless in the appropriate weather until I was about 8 or 9, and transitioned without difficulty as my breasts grew in - in fact, just about only remembered conflict with my mother was over need for bra at about 11. No one wants to see sexual organs, male or female, flopping about. They do flop, after all. As in the famous theatre-goers' quote recounted by Alex Guiness in his memoirs: (someone comes one stage displaying "the full monty".) Man in audience: "Cover it up, dear boy, cover it up! No one is interested in that sort of thing!" --------________--------________-------- From lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov Mon May 5 23:03:30 2003 From: lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov (Jagoda, Lynette K) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 15:03:30 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Galley auction and disposable incomes... mostly OT: Message-ID: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20034411@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> Snips---- Interesting. There seem to be five people who are serious about wanting a > copy and only 3 copies to be had. I can't wait to see what the highest bid > ends up as. Having just checked my personal archives - this is the list that claimed they were going to get the three copies on the 27th & 28th. Do we believe they can foretell the future? Or do they just have ... significantly large amounts of disposable income? -- Scott Raun End Snips--- The fact that it is for charity can make a big difference. Every year a friend and I go to a local Humane Society "Mardi Gras" Party and Auction. She has build into her yearly budget about $500 specifically ear-marked for the Humane Society. If she doesn't spend it at "Fund-raisers" she is going to write a check for that anyway. So just about anything she really sets her mind to getting at the auction is often going to end up going home with her. The first $500 she considers money already "spent". Winning stuff with it is just a bonus. Though I have to admit, I beat her out on a romantic weekend get-away package this year cause I had been keeping track of what she had already spent. But in all honesty that worked best for the humane society. My yearly "budget" for this event is usually about $150 and I don't write a check for the difference if I don't spend it. But I busted the piggy bank and spent more than double that this year. I really wanted it and I kept saying to myself, this isn't selfish extravagance because it is for the puppies and kitties!! Now all I have to do is lure Pilot up to Seattle sometime this summer and it will have been money doubly well spent. Lynette <------ who will let all my fellow Seattle-Tacoma listees know if/when I am successful so we can do another Sunday get together. --------________--------________-------- From countryboy66 at mchsi.com Tue May 6 00:17:27 2003 From: countryboy66 at mchsi.com (Countryboy) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 18:17:27 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom References: <20030505211343.14012.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> <00eb01c31353$04410850$d18dd70c@MainComputer> <3EB6EE75.D75197DB@erols.com> Message-ID: <010101c3135c$7e5255f0$d18dd70c@MainComputer> Alexandra Haropulos opined: > As in the famous theatre-goers' quote recounted by Alex Guiness in his memoirs: > (someone comes one stage displaying "the full monty".) Man in audience: "Cover > it up, dear boy, cover it up! No one is interested in that sort of thing!" There are things I see now that I don't want to that are perfectly legal. (For some people, speedos should be outlawed). As far as s*x**l organs, male mammary glands are also, just not so prominently. Countryboy (Allen) - who, IMHO, thinks good taste rather than absolute laws should rule. --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Tue May 6 01:10:22 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 20:10:22 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom References: Message-ID: <3EB6FD68.B50D64B7@redmaplegrove.org> Brian Hurt wrote: > I don't know. I somehow have a problem with putting the right to go > topless in the same category as, for example, the right of free speech, or > the right for a trial by jury. Well, I can't get the page from the link, so I don't know what that ruling was about, whether it was argued as a First Amendment issue or what.. This is a fair synopsis of the Ontario Gwen Jacobs ruling: **************************************** December 1996. Summarized by Stephane Deschenes from articles in the Globe & Mail, Toronto Star, Toronto Sun, Canadian Press, Windsor Star, Southam News, and Kitchener-Waterloo Record. On December 10th, the Ontario Appeal Court reversed the 1991 conviction of Gwen Jacobs for indecency. Jacob, at the time a university student, had walked bare-breasted through the streets of Guelph in 1991 in order to protest the inequality of current law. The appeal-court overturned her conviction because "There was nothing degrading or dehumanizing in what the appellant did. The scope of her activity was limited and was entirely non-commercial. No one who was offended was forced to continue looking at her. I cannot conclude that what the appellant did exceeded the community standard of tolerance when all of the relevant circumstances are taken into account." The three judges did not completely agree on the scope of the law. They all agreed that Jacobs had not committed an indecent act. However, Judge Osborne and Mr. Justice Allan Austin suggested that acts could be indecent without having a sexual purpose. Judge Weiler on the other hand, believes that the question is whether an act would be considered sexual by a reasonable bystander. She said that the exposure of breasts in our society does not automatically mean that the act is being done for sexual gratification. Jacob's lawyer, Margaret Buist had argued that she had a constitutional right to go topless since men could. However, the court did not deal with the constitutionality issue in its ruling. **************************************** > So what is going topless meant to convey? What is it's symbology? Actually, in the Jacobs case there WAS an issue of communication, some of which is actually relevant to the thread. It didn't make it into the formal court proceedings, basically because the case didn't go to the National Supremes, but a large part of the point being conveyed by the women who went 'illegally' topless at protests in support of Gwen's case (hi! Is anyone really astonished that I was Right In There? :-) was: that the definition of what parts of the body are sexual is inherently cultural -- (any woman who is physically capable of 'walking around with her sexual organs exposed' should seek medical help immediately; where *I* come from, they call that a severe prolapse!) , and that the current definition A) was sexist in intent and practice, especially in that 1) incidents involving women being arrested or threatened with arrest for a) breastfeeding and b) brief exposures related to changing clothes or positions on the beach, strongly suggested that the overall message was "we do not care how the owners of these breasts define themselves or what they consider to be sexual. WE find them sexual, and we will continue to impose that definition on women, and any notions that you may have that you might be Doing Something Else is irrelevant if someone wants to regard you as being sexual" and 2) the only place in Ontario where it WAS legal to expose one's breasts in public was STRIP BARS, to which women were routinely not admitted as customers. Which sends the unacceptable message that it is neither exposure NOR sexualization which offends, but rather self-determination about exposure and attempts at DE-sexualization. Because whatever the intent, that is how the law and the enforcement ran. B) contributed to a climate in which sexual harassment and assault was still considered justifiable on the basis of 'provocative dress' -- where what was provocative was defined by the assailant, the court, the police, anyone but the woman involved and finally C) that the the difference between the present law and some of the interpretations of (for example, shari'a law, which we all seem to agree has a number of interpretations we consider unjustifiable and Just Plain Wrong), while considerable, is one of degree rather than kind, and that therefore the strongest possible defense we can create against Taliban-esque laws is a situation in which women, while they may rarely or never choose to exercise it to the fullest, have rights equivalent to those of men to make their OWN decisions about what is and it not appropriate dress and exposure, and no law may override this. In other words, to set the bar so high that there is no opportunity to persecute women over things like breastfeeding, even if public opinion suddenly swings back towards defining it as "indecent". There was at one point a minority opinion in favour of simply requiring men to cover their nipples at all times, suggested by an Ontario Lower Court judge, but it didn't go very far. For that matter, men never get arrested for peeing in public, as far as I can tell. Speaking of flashing. And, of course, this is the result. Women go topless on the beach, and they breastfeed publically in comfort, less or more discreetly according to their needs and natures, and we're a lot more relaxed about quick changes on the beach or the sportsfield, but after a spurt of toplessness at Pride and Take Back the Night, which lasted for maybe 3 years, rarely anywhere else, and nowhere where men would be looked at askance for doing so. (It should be noted that women are still required to abide by, for example, no-shirt-no-shoes-no-service signs, as these apply to everyone old enough to put a foot on the ground. ) Countryboy wrote: > Countryboy (Allen) - who, IMHO, thinks good taste rather than absolute laws > should rule. Wellnow. I'm all in favour of good taste. But there's a slope of some slipperiness there: there was a lot of discussion, in the papers and on the streets, about the 'nobody wants to see that!" argument. Occasionally represented bluntly as "it's not like it'll be the hotties who are doing it, I wouldn't mind that, but it'll be, like, old fat dykes and stuff -- eeew!" So I used to tell this (entirely true, I worked with the gent in Toronto) story: Yeah, I know what you mean. I know this guy. Had a propane tank from a bbq blow up while he was beside it when he was ten, and he's, like, got all this scar tissue from the shoulders down, and his left foot's half gone, and his right thigh has this chunk out of it, and you'll never believe it, he thinks he should be allowed to wear shorts when it's hot and use public pools and everything... Just. Like. Everybody. Else. (Let it be said, though, nobody ever gave Kevin any trouble about his looks at a public pool anywhere else that I know of. And actually, he is an extremely good looking man who happens to have a lot of scars; I'm making him sounds pretty scary looking, but he is not.) Marna. --------________--------________-------- From theneals at xtra.co.nz Tue May 6 01:49:53 2003 From: theneals at xtra.co.nz (Anita Neal) Date: 06 May 2003 12:49:53 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: Religions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1052182184.938.17.camel@orac> On Tue, 2003-05-06 at 04:42, Tom Vinson wrote: > On 5 May Anita Neal noted > > In MD Mark thinks at one point "I am being poured out like > > water" and wonders where the quote came from,... > > Psalm 22 (Hebrew numbering, 21 Greek and Latin): > I am poured out like water; > all my bones are out of joint; > my heart within my breast is melting wax. > > (This psalm is also the source of the quote, "My G-d, my G-d, > why have you forsaken me?") > > The psalms as a whole are a good source for an unexpurgated > view of religion. ObBujold: Check your assumptions at the door. > > Tom Beg pardon - the reference I had in mind was Philippians 2:17 which actually reads 'I am poured out like a drink offering...' Should have checked before I posted. BTW, came across another one this morning in SoH where Aral characterises himself as 'a man under authority' cf the centurian in the Gospels. TTFN Anita -- Anita Neal --------________--------________-------- From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca Tue May 6 02:04:00 2003 From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James and Mary Burbidge) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 21:04:00 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Books OT: References: <876F60EA-7E96-11D7-BF27-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <3EB70A00.AB1948F9@sympatico.ca> Andrew Lambdin-Abraham wrote: > > On Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 07:20 PM, WaWenri at aol.com wrote: > > > James Burbidge writes: > > > >> WaWenri at aol.com wrote: > >>> > >>> I just read the omnibus General series, Warlord and Conqueror. Five > >>> books > >> in > >>> one. Any comments? > >>> > >>> Bill Wenrich > >> > >> Belisarius? > > > > No, Raj Whitehall. > > > > Bill Wenrich > > Ahh. > > Belisarius in a (skimpy) disguise... > > Andrew Extremely skimpy, except towards the very end. I enjoyed the books, but there's a pretty direct map between all the groups and figures and those of Justinian/Belisarius -- at least as direct as those between the historical figures and their equivalents in _The Sarantine Mosaic_. -- James Burbidge jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca --------________--------________-------- From theneals at xtra.co.nz Tue May 6 02:16:33 2003 From: theneals at xtra.co.nz (Anita Neal) Date: 06 May 2003 13:16:33 +1200 Subject: [LMB] OT: Misogyny and Religion... In-Reply-To: <20030505210901.27638.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030505210901.27638.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1052183711.937.27.camel@orac> On Tue, 2003-05-06 at 09:09, Joyeuse wrote: > --- "Jagoda, Lynette K" a icrit : > Jason B. Said > > > > It is my personal belief, that there is a huge amount of room to do a > > "Chicken or the Egg" debate here. Misogyny > > develops/exists for many reasons and has been seen throughout many cultures > > I just finished an interesting book called, "When God Was a Woman," can't > remember the author's name. There was an _awful_ lot of speculation, but the > basic premise was that Long Ago, matriarchy and goddess-worship were far more > common than patriarchy and god-worship, and that the female religions were > gradually forced out by the male religions of Indo-European Invaders, and that > the accompanying misogyny was not just a natural outgrowth of a patriarchal > religion and culture, but a deliberate attempt to subjugate and plow under the > goddess-worshipping religions. Fascinating, but I'm not sure how much credence > I'd give it, considering that virtually every other word in the book was > "probably," "seems to," or "perhaps." :-) > > Joy W. > Hi there, You might find the works of Ronald Hutton interesting. One's called *Triumph of the Moon*, a history of modern witchcraft/neopaganism in which he basically debunks the Mother Goddess thing. Also in another book *The Pagan religions of the Ancient British Isles* he traces the evolution of the theory. Basically it came from a couple of scholars early in the 20th cent who went further than their evidence could really carry them but came to represent the scholarly orthodoxy. But just as the revisionists caught up with them the feminist movement picked up the notion which fit so well with their cultural/political/social objectives that it's never really died on a popular level - even though academics no longer give it the time of day. -- Anita Neal --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 6 02:17:36 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:17:36 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2335 - 20 msgs Message-ID: <193.19d0d1ec.2be86730@aol.com> In a message dated 5/5/2003 5:15:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > >It is my personal belief, that there is a huge amount of room to do a > >"Chicken or the Egg" debate here. Misogyny > > develops/exists for many reasons and has been seen throughout many > cultures > > I just finished an interesting book called, "When God Was a Woman," can't > remember the author's name. There was an _awful_ lot of speculation, but > the > basic premise was that Long Ago, matriarchy and goddess-worship were far > more > common than patriarchy and god-worship, and that the female religions were > gradually forced out by the male religions of Indo-European Invaders, and > that > the accompanying misogyny was not just a natural outgrowth of a patriarchal > religion and culture, but a deliberate attempt to subjugate and plow under > the > goddess-worshipping religions. Fascinating, but I'm not sure how much > credence > I'd give it, considering that virtually every other word in the book was > "probably," "seems to," or "perhaps." :-) > > Joy W. I've read that one, too. I guess it's kind of hard to be too specific about prehistoric times (unless you're Jean Auel) and their beliefs, but most of the human carvings we have seen from that time are of women. This might mean nothing more than that only men had time to be artists in a hunter-gatherer society. I mean, one big kill and you can sit around for a while and do some carving, but preserving the meat, cooking, gathering, tanning leather, making clothing, child rearing, cave maintenance, etc, go on forever. Sound familiar? Happy Cinco de Mayo! Mary --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Tue May 6 02:22:54 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 18:22:54 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <3EB6FD68.B50D64B7@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <003301c3136e$05f3cd20$31432904@earthlink.net> re: women topless - frankly, I'd be just as happy if neither men or women did that. But then I have some weird Victorian flashbacks in my personality, and often my reaction to both sexes around here is a thought of "gack, they should put some clothes on." (But then out here I run into people wearing clothes at a *business meeting* that I swear would mark them as a prostitute in most places. What ARE they thinking?) Personally I'm not constructed so as to want to do it - although when out hiking through a historical park's woods with Karl a couple years back, I did strip down to the bra I had on, which is similar to many women's 'sports bra' tops. In general, it's restrictions that don't match by sex that bug me. If a culture decides, f'rinstance, that it's improper to uncover one's head (or tush, or feet, or whatever), that's fine by me - but if it's only woman that can't, that bugs me. Marna writes: > It didn't make it into the formal court proceedings, basically because > the case didn't go to the National Supremes, but a large part of the > point being conveyed by the women who went 'illegally' topless at > protests in support of Gwen's case (hi! Is anyone really astonished > that I was Right In There? :-) was: You Go Girl. > In other words, to set the bar so high that there is no > opportunity to persecute women over things like breastfeeding, > even if public opinion suddenly swings back towards defining > it as "indecent". One of the things that makes it worthwhile putting up with the disadvantages of California is the law here on breastfeeding. It is explicitly written into law that anywhere a woman and her baby may legally be, they can breastfeed. Yay. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 6 02:20:52 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:20:52 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Freedom Message-ID: <142.10cb85b0.2be867f4@aol.com> In a message dated 5/5/2003 7:05:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > Joy L, who would _love_ to be able to go topless in public...the sports bra > is > the best invention in the world. > That's great, but it would be painful for those of us who wear the larger sizes! Just imagining driving down a bumpy road hurts! Mary --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 6 02:25:41 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:25:41 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Grad School Message-ID: <12a.293d9242.2be86915@aol.com> In a message dated 5/5/2003 7:05:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > I was so devastated when I went to graduate school and found out > how many things I believed (at one time, wholeheartedly and with > a convert's zeal) about the history of paganism and witchcraft > were simply Just Not True. It is one of the defining experiences > of my life, actually. Oh, yeah. And to discover that I actually had to _study_ was probably the biggest shock of all. Then in History of Biology classes I learned that what is currently accepted as truth is more like the theory du jour. So many of these lovely theories are just so much phlogiston. Mary --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 6 02:31:44 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:31:44 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Going topless Message-ID: In a message dated 5/5/2003 7:05:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > I had to explain to my 4 girls (10, 9, 9, and 7) (yes, twins), why boys are > allowed to run around without a shirt and girls aren't. To be honest, the > only answer I had was that it was against the law. Why shouldn't they, until they start looking different from boys? Mary --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 6 02:36:24 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:36:24 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Going topless Message-ID: <9b.382ee186.2be86b98@aol.com> In a message dated 5/5/2003 7:05:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > Wether or not it should be a crime is a different subject. But I don't > see how going shirtless is *communication*. What does it mean? Note that > communication may mean symbolic acts- like burning bras, or draft cards, > or flags. So what is going topless meant to convey? What is it's > symbology? Hey, if they want to sunburn their breasts and get skin damage, I guess they've got a right. However, I think it would be unrealistic for them to expect to be treated the same way as a more discreet woman. Mary --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Tue May 6 02:43:07 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 18:43:07 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <003301c3136e$05f3cd20$31432904@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003501c31370$d8626da0$31432904@earthlink.net> A further thought on the whole idea of religious restrictions and decency and freedom and covering up and such - if one runs into someone going on about religious reasons for 'decency' and coverups, against nudity or topless women (or uncovered female hair, etc), it seems to me that the proper response would be to look them in the eye, and say words to the effect of "Oh, yes - clearly, if God had meant for us to go around topless, we'd have been born that way." Then walk away... heh Laura Gallagher "Fruitcakes in the kitchen / Fruitcakes on the street Struttin' naked through the cross walk / In the middle of the week " Jimmy Buffett --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Tue May 6 02:46:29 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 18:46:29 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: Going topless In-Reply-To: <9b.382ee186.2be86b98@aol.com> Message-ID: <003601c31371$50cc3be0$31432904@earthlink.net> > Hey, if they want to sunburn their breasts and get skin > damage, I guess they've got a right. However, I think > it would be unrealistic for them to > expect to be treated the same way as a more discreet woman. > Mary I think the usual idea is why should they be treated differently, in a situation where a topless man won't be treated differently from a shirted one. Laura --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Tue May 6 02:51:31 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 21:51:31 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Going topless OT: References: <9b.382ee186.2be86b98@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EB71520.26769B90@redmaplegrove.org> CatMtn at aol.com wrote: > > Hey, if they want to sunburn their breasts and get skin damage, I guess > they've got a right. Sunblock is a fine and noble thing. Especially on skin which doesn't usually see the sun, and it's that time of year to ask: has anyone gotten a new, short haircut over the winter? Remember that tender nape, folks! > However, I think it would be unrealistic for them to > expect to be treated the same way as a more discreet woman. Oh, I'm every other inch a realist. Expect -- no. DEMAND, that's more like it. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From countryboy66 at mchsi.com Tue May 6 02:59:45 2003 From: countryboy66 at mchsi.com (Countryboy) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 20:59:45 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Going topless References: Message-ID: <013101c31373$2ab704b0$d18dd70c@MainComputer> Mary said: > Why shouldn't they, until they start looking different from boys? > Mary Because I have 4 and any different treatment starts an arguement. I don't know who or when will be the first. I've got to get them indoctrinated to society as soon as I can. Countryboy - having to leave the keyboard to answer the call of fatherhood. --------________--------________-------- From iosef at gothic.net.au Tue May 6 03:05:43 2003 From: iosef at gothic.net.au (I) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 12:05:43 +1000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Technical Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20030506120336.00b8bdd8@mail.gothic.net.au> At 02:43 AM 6/05/2003, Kevin Kennedy wrote: >Already I have a question I hope someone can answer. I recieved a DVD >player as a gift yesterday. As I don't own any DVD's yet, and it'll >probably take forever to convert my video collection to DVD, I am >reluctant to get rid of the VCR just yet. So I want to know if I can >connect both to one TV without causing the end of the universe. The TV is >old enough to vote, so I do need to go out and get an RF modulator(so says >the instruction manual) And I'm not really an electronic genius, so any >advice has to be very basic, although I did hook up the VCR all by myself. Hook the DVD up to to Video and Audio RCA inputs on the back of the Video player. Dont attempt to Tape anything while watching dvd. Set video to AV in to watch DVDs. Iestyn --------________--------________-------- From kerry at forty-two.co.nz Tue May 6 03:27:48 2003 From: kerry at forty-two.co.nz (Kerry Dustin) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 14:27:48 +1200 Subject: [LMB] BOI mp3 audio book Message-ID: <000301c31377$15d6f1f0$0300a8c0@void.fortytwo.co.nz> A very nice friend bought a copy of the "Border of Infinity" mp3 CD at the Emoticon auction. He then gave it to my husband and me as a belated wedding present. Unfortunately, my husband (who is listening to it first) tells me that there is an error in at least one of the later tracks where the audio jumps and there is something missing. Does anyone else have this and has found the same problem? (I've been off the list a while, so apologies if this has been covered before.) Kerry PWC since 1990 -- http://www.forty-two.co.nz/corner http://rocalisa.livejournal.com "The fact that I have fangs might be considered important by some people..." - Dark Symphony, Christine Feehan --------________--------________-------- From christine at forber.net Tue May 6 03:38:30 2003 From: christine at forber.net (Christine Forber) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 22:38:30 -0400 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update In-Reply-To: <001e01c31359$8072cc50$6e01a8c0@D6FL1B21> References: <200305052113.h45LDTr5000305@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5ydpir0bhqqzh5m.050520032235@forber.net> At 03:56 PM 5/5/2003 -0700, Robert Warnicke wrote: > >Bah Humbug! The proper description of this is not "Interesting" but >"Expensive", and so far its $45 dollars cheaper to me than Carosue! I think it is interesting from the point of view of a bystander!! >Just out of curiosity, What did the Galley's go for on Ebay last time? I got one for $32.57, but somewhat later than most of the listees who bought ARCs. And don't forget, those ARCs were not signed and personally donated by Lois. These 3 copies have an extra ummm cachet! Christine --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Tue May 6 03:36:58 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 19:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Going topless In-Reply-To: <9b.382ee186.2be86b98@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030505193240.J2316-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Mon, 5 May 2003 CatMtn at aol.com wrote: > lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > > > Wether or not it should be a crime is a different subject. But I don't > > see how going shirtless is *communication*. What does it mean? Note that > > communication may mean symbolic acts- like burning bras, or draft cards, > > or flags. So what is going topless meant to convey? What is it's > > symbology? > > Hey, if they want to sunburn their breasts and get skin damage, I guess > they've got a right. However, I think it would be unrealistic for them to > expect to be treated the same way as a more discreet woman. Please tell me that you did not just say what I think you said, or rather that you did not mean what it sounds like you meant by it. ~malfoy, who understood the definition of "permitted to look but not touch" when she was 3 and has no patience with the notion that anyone over that age should be excused from Getting It. ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Tue May 6 03:38:14 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:38:14 -0500 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/5 @ 9:30PM CDT Message-ID: <20030506023814.GA1125@fireopal.org> See the current info web page at - it also has the list of who's asked to be included in the read, sign & pass along copy - http://www.fireopal.org/~sraun/lmb_pos_auction.html The current high bids are: carosue at centurytel.net $250 5/5, 1:27AM rparks at lvhot.org $225 5/3, 2:21PM Robert at WarnickeLittler.com $205 5/4, 12:34P There are currently forty-four people signed up for the read, sign & pass-along copy. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 6 03:45:31 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 22:45:31 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Toplessness Message-ID: <1dc.910f51f.2be87bcb@aol.com> In a message dated 5/5/2003 10:06:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: I didn't mean they _should_ be treated differently, but it's an imperfect world. Most men would find it hard to believe that they weren't trying to be sexual in their behavior, complicated by the fact that some of the topless _would_ be trying to behave in a sexually provocative manner. I think society is moving in the direction of lowering nudity taboos, but we're not quite that far along yet. And, by the way, as for skin damage, I now wish that I had never gone outdoors without covering up like a Taliban woman (impractical as that would have been in South Texas), since I have all sorts of problems developing from too much sun in my first 30 years of life. I never sunbathed, but I started my MS in marine biology and spent a lot of time in a bathing suit on north Padre Island. I don't have melanoma, thank heaven, although two good friends died of it before the age of forty, but enough other problems keep me visiting my dermatologist like she was my best friend. Believe me, it wasn't worth it! Mary > >Hey, if they want to sunburn their breasts and get skin > >damage, I guess they've got a right. However, I think > >it would be unrealistic for them to > >expect to be treated the same way as a more discreet woman. > >Mary > > I think the usual idea is why should they be treated differently, in a > situation where a topless man won't be treated differently from a > shirted one. --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Tue May 6 03:56:47 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 19:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <003301c3136e$05f3cd20$31432904@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030505194003.Y2316-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Mon, 5 May 2003, Laura Gallagher wrote: > re: women topless - frankly, I'd be just as happy if neither men or > women did that. But then I have some weird Victorian flashbacks in my > personality, and often my reaction to both sexes around here is a > thought of "gack, they should put some clothes on." (But then out here I > run into people wearing clothes at a *business meeting* that I swear > would mark them as a prostitute in most places. What ARE they > thinking?) There is no longer any cultural consensus as to what constitutes businesslike attire even for men in California. This in general suits me fine. I categorically refuse to wear pantyhose. (I'd appreciate some kind of cultural consensus about what's appropriate for dates, because I won't date men who live in t-shirts. But that's a different issue. I have a Clothes Fetish >From Hell. If you need to be Comfortable All The Time, I am not your girl--a tie allergy is one thing, I can understand that--but you have to Dress Up in some way to impress me.) Anyhow, due to the lack of a consensus, people fall back on their upbringing and their personal taste. I know I have friends who think that I dress like a slut, but most of them are People Who Have To Be Comfortable, so we're polite to each other and don't discuss the issue too much, except every 5 years or so when I throw a big party and have to remind my friends that t-shirts and sweats are not allowed at Malfoy Manor West during our little soirees. (I have one friend who every now and again is allowed to say "You are Too Big to wear that" because otherwise it will just kill her, but she is only allowed that privilege because she's a Slytherin Friend, as in "What's in the trunk?" "Don't ask.") So the answer is, they probably think they look fine. Also, I understand that you are in Southern California, where the girls may or may not be hot, but the weather usually is. I am fairly sure I wouldn't last a day in a traditional business suit (blouse or shirt under lined jacket) in LA--and I *know* my deodorant wouldn't. Corporate drag is not a style of dress that evolved for semitropical or tropical climates, yet we really don't have a good alternative that sends the same businesslike message in this culture. The polo shirt and khakis that are so ubiquitous in Silicon Valley do the trick for some people, but god...they are ugly to look at! ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Tue May 6 04:17:20 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 23:17:20 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom References: <20030505194003.Y2316-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <3EB7293B.D13EF0CA@redmaplegrove.org> Azalais Malfoy wrote: > Corporate drag is not a style of dress that evolved > for semitropical or tropical climates, yet we really don't have a > good alternative that sends the same businesslike message in this > culture. Cotton dresses (close to or past the knee, some notion of a sleeve) Rock My World. Yeah, they too don't look great on every woman, but there's enough variation in style that you can probably do okay, and if a person can't be glam, at least one may be Crisp. If one has the money, there is linen. Or a blend of both. Super-light *unlined* short-sleeved loose-skirted suits are nice, too. (Now, to get the blasted designers to stop designing for climate-controlled offices kept at 72F/20C. Meanwhile, there must be a nice web-order place somewhere in the tropical countries of the world...) As for the men -- in the tropics, business suits come in lovely open weave light natural fabrics with Bermuda shorts instead of trousers. And once one gets used to it -- I admit it is startling at first, the notion of exposed socks in particular -- it is very nice. And Crisp, which IMO is the adjective of choice for tropical-weather business attire. Beats Wilted, no matter HOW snazzy your suit would be were it not sweated-in and crumpled. Equally, I wish that the nice-sweater-under-the-jacket would catch on more emphatically up here for winter. I do appreciate the joys of climate control, but I cannot think that aiming for precisely the same temperature indoors all year round, regardless of what's happening outside, is a) the best use of money, b) environmentally sane, or c) especially healthy. Marna, who is quite sure she's inflicted this rant on the list before and who will therefore subside now. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 6 04:23:56 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 23:23:56 -0400 Subject: [LMB] freedom References: <003301c3136e$05f3cd20$31432904@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <02f001c3137e$f1a2c810$630d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laura Gallagher" > re: women topless - frankly, I'd be just as happy if neither men or > women did that. But then I have some weird Victorian flashbacks in my > personality, and often my reaction to both sexes around here is a > thought of "gack, they should put some clothes on." (But then out here I > run into people wearing clothes at a *business meeting* that I swear > would mark them as a prostitute in most places. What ARE they > thinking?) Personally I'm not constructed so as to want to do it - Watch TV, especially shows like _Charmed_, and soap operas, and TV newscasters, Wheel of Fortune,AND look at all the clothing industry ads in newspapers, magazines, and clothing discussions in magazines. They're all pushing "inappropriate apparel" as business clothing for women.... Ugh. I just had this horrid thought about Tacky TV shows of the Nexus. Consider Reality TV on Beta, or worse, Jackson's Whole. Just think of the prizes that might be on games shows on Jackson's Whole. "Win a FREE CLONING!" "Grow your own army!" Beta, the idea of "Blind Date, who will -you- get?! [and from what planet?!]" Just think, a visiting Barrayaran matched up with a herm.... --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue May 6 04:26:24 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 20:26:24 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: climate control In-Reply-To: <3EB7293B.D13EF0CA@redmaplegrove.org> References: <20030505194003.Y2316-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <3EB7293B.D13EF0CA@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <20030506032624.GA5921@ofb.net> On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 11:17:20PM -0400, Marna Nightingale wrote: > I do appreciate the joys of climate control, but I cannot think that > aiming for precisely the same temperature indoors all year round, > regardless of what's happening outside, is a) the best use of money, > b) environmentally sane, or c) especially healthy. Hey, all the most advanced social species do it. Well, not sure about anthils, although being undeground is a major step toward climate control by itself. But honeybees can keep hive temperature within a degree in summer with fanning and water-cooling, and within I think about ten degrees in winter with being a seething mass of bees. (Fahrenheit or celsius? Don't know. Source: not sure, I hope _The Social Insects_ by Wilson) And advanced termite mounds have intricate air conditioning built into the subsurface tunnels. Of course part of the justification for all this might be that the colony is a giant genital organ, with the same interest in constant temperature as human descended testes. Or something... are testes really constant, or just cooler than the main body? -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Tue May 6 04:45:32 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 20:45:32 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <20030505194003.Y2316-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <005c01c31381$f26c5240$31432904@earthlink.net> > >(But then out here I > > run into people wearing clothes at a *business meeting* that I swear > > would mark them as a prostitute in most places. What ARE they > > thinking?) > > There is no longer any cultural consensus as to what constitutes > businesslike attire even for men in California. This in general > suits me fine. I categorically refuse to wear pantyhose. Oh, me too. Cotton bloomers and stockings, yay. (I'm betting that's a VERY different response from yours...) > So the answer is, they probably think they look fine. Also, I > understand that you are in Southern California, where the girls > may or may not be hot, but the weather usually is. [snip] > Corporate drag is not a style of dress that evolved > for semitropical or tropical climates, yet we really don't have a > good alternative that sends the same businesslike message in this > culture. The polo shirt and khakis that are so ubiquitous in [snip] The company in question keeps its buildings chilly inside. I used to keep a thin pair of cotton gloves so I could keep typing comfortably. I was ecstatic when the Official Ergonomics Class listed 72 as a minimum appropriate temperature - armed with that, I convinced my supervisor to let me turn up the local thermostat. Temperature was no excuse for that woman. (Miniskirt barely covering hips, bare legs, clogs with open toes, minitop with plunging neckline. Certainly a man showing up in, say speedos and a tank top, would have been equally inappropriate). The company had been casualizing from the dress shirt model towards the polo shirt model, generally for both sexes. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From braue at ratsnest.win.net Tue May 6 05:00:06 2003 From: braue at ratsnest.win.net (John W. Braue, III) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 00:00:06 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: climate control References: <20030505194003.Y2316-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <3EB7293B.D13EF0CA@redmaplegrove.org> <20030506032624.GA5921@ofb.net> Message-ID: <002301c31383$fcb268a0$8166fea9@computer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Sullivan" To: Sent: Monday, 05 May, 2003 23:26 Subject: [LMB] OT: climate control > Of course part of the justification for all this might be that the colony is a > giant genital organ, with the same interest in constant temperature as human > descended testes. Or something... are testes really constant, or just cooler > than the main body? They're kept at a fairly constant temperature; the scrotum tightens and loosens to keep the testes closer or further from the body. ------------------------------------------------ John W. Braue, III http://www.win.net/ratsnest/log.htm "What's the matter, don't you think I'll be back?" -- last recorded words of Manfred, Freiherr von Richthofen ("The Red Baron") --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 6 05:13:30 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 00:13:30 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Assumptions... References: <193.19d0d1ec.2be86730@aol.com> Message-ID: <035401c31385$dc9dc0d0$630d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: > In a message dated 5/5/2003 5:15:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > > > >It is my personal belief, that there is a huge amount of room to do a > > >"Chicken or the Egg" debate here. Misogyny > > > develops/exists for many reasons and has been seen throughout many > > cultures > > > > I just finished an interesting book called, "When God Was a Woman," can't > > remember the author's name. There was an _awful_ lot of speculation, but > > the .... > I've read that one, too. I guess it's kind of hard to be too specific about > prehistoric times (unless you're Jean Auel) and their beliefs, but most of > the human carvings we have seen from that time are of women. This might mean > nothing more than that only men had time to be artists in a hunter-gatherer What? And just how certain are those assumptions about gender roles in hunter-gatherer societies, anyway? Why couldn't males have been involved in chidcare, and women in hunting, other then -current- biases in the matter? I took a night class given by Harvard's extension school a decade ago, and at that time, the thought was that prehistoric hunter-gatherer societies spent at most four hours a day "working" on food and shelter -- that contemporary hunterer gatherer cultures are only remnants, and got pushed out to marginal conditions... that the conditions that existed many millennia ago, with lower population density and greater density of game, that people didn't have to spend all that much time during the day hunting and gathering food, and had a lot more time for play and art and storytelling and such. What evidence is there that -women- didn't do art? There were female cathedral architects in the Middle Ages.... there isn't a gender-based bias about ability to do art, to sculpt, to paint, to weave textiles, etc. For that matter, at least one of Philip II of Macedonia's wives apparently fought in battles.... and there's demonstrable proof that Scythian and Sauromatian women fought -- arrowheads embedded in their bones, old healed-over war wounds, bows and quivers of arrows and sword and armor buried with women with battle wound evidence in their bones.... > society. I mean, one big kill and you can sit around for a while and do some > carving, but preserving the meat, cooking, gathering, tanning leather, making > clothing, child rearing, cave maintenance, etc, go on forever. Sound > familiar? And no culture has ever had males involved in childcare? The Victorian picture of males out hunting, and females in the cave cooking and minding children, was based on a mindset that included some -really -sick stuff, that Ges Vorrutyer and Prince Serg might have objected to -- the Victorians were heavily into kiddie porn. For that matter, boys past a certain age in Athens and other ancient Greek cities, spent their days with other males, and it was from a rather young age. That de facto constituted boychild child care. Lois' work, there are males who do childcare -- Ethan, and all those Fathers. The writings that have come down to modern times, have had millennia of redaction and editing for the most part, which includes removal and editing/rewriting of whatever people considered overly objectionable to their tastes or not quite "appropriate" or incomprehensible, over time. Ancient synagogues have been excavated, with major evidence that there were women who sat in the front of them "this is the seat of [name of woman] is rather strong evidence for that! The stories that cultures do tell, generally get told to -reinforce- cultural myths, or desired behavior. The whole range of the Little Red Riding Hood stories tend to be "now little girl, if you.... then the result will be...." sorts of things. Regarding censorship -- note how Athosian Authorities censor material from offplanet, and how thrilled Ethan is to be trusted to receive offplanet medical journals, uncensored..... --------________--------________-------- From RayLists at quixnet.net Tue May 6 05:48:33 2003 From: RayLists at quixnet.net (Ray Drouillard) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 00:48:33 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Technical Question References: Message-ID: <00e901c3138a$c13b2800$9591d943@ray1000> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Kennedy" To: Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 12:43 PM Subject: [LMB] OT: Technical Question > Already I have a question I hope someone can answer. I recieved a DVD player > as a gift yesterday. As I don't own any DVD's yet, and it'll probably take > forever to convert my video collection to DVD, I am reluctant to get rid of > the VCR just yet. So I want to know if I can connect both to one TV without > causing the end of the universe. The TV is old enough to vote, so I do need > to go out and get an RF modulator(so says the instruction manual) And I'm > not really an electronic genius, so any advice has to be very basic, > although I did hook up the VCR all by myself. The easiest solution is to use an antenna switch. Simply switch between the DVD and the VCR. Ray --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Tue May 6 05:46:26 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <005c01c31381$f26c5240$31432904@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030505213509.G33412-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Mon, 5 May 2003, Laura Gallagher wrote: > > There is no longer any cultural consensus as to what constitutes > > businesslike attire even for men in California. This in general > > suits me fine. I categorically refuse to wear pantyhose. > > Oh, me too. Cotton bloomers and stockings, yay. (I'm betting that's a > VERY different response from yours...) Depends. Cotton bloomers are nice if I'm wearing a full skirt! Those are usually long enough that I don't bother about leg coverings. If it's warm I go bare-legged. I don't see how flesh-colored see-through leg coverings are more or less "professional" than bare legs, as they cover nothing. See-through clothing that is so fragile it will be destroyed on the first or second wearing, whether it be sheer stockings or pantyhose, isn't part of my wardrobe except for special occasions, when it's worn for effect. If it's not warm I wear socks or sometimes tights. My skirts are usually a length that looks okay with nylon knee socks or short black or white socks and Mary Janes. Either just above the knee or quite a bit longer. My vice is not short skirts, but low necklines. I don't think short skirts are a bad thing but I don't care for the way my legs look in them. > The company in question keeps its buildings chilly inside. I used to > keep a thin pair of cotton gloves so I could keep typing comfortably. I > was ecstatic when the Official Ergonomics Class listed 72 as a minimum > appropriate temperature - armed with that, I convinced my supervisor to > let me turn up the local thermostat. Temperature was no excuse for that > woman. (Miniskirt barely covering hips, bare legs, clogs with open > toes, minitop with plunging neckline. Certainly a man showing up in, > say speedos and a tank top, would have been equally inappropriate). Well, I really don't think there is anything wrong with bare legs if flesh-toned pantyhose are allowed. A flesh-toned covering is not a covering if it is see-through. As far as I'm concerned pantyhose, whatever their color, are just a waste of money because I can only wear them once or twice before they're destroyed. I'll wear nylon tights or socks but they're heavy enough not to be destroyed if I breathe wrong. I feel the same way about sheer stockings. But then, men are not allowed to show their legs, and women are. This sort of makes up for the fact that women are not allowed to show their chests in American culture. There are VERY few places where men can wear short pants. ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue May 6 05:47:48 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:47:48 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Marines and gazelles Message-ID: <20030506044748.GA15089@ofb.net> Anything to avoid MREs... http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_771853.html?menu=news.latestheadlines --------________--------________-------- From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz Tue May 6 07:25:17 2003 From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:25:17 +1200 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom Message-ID: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F53702A7C98F@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> Someone mentioned Speedos earlier - sometimes the effect of some guys in shorts can be a bit startling - "chicken legs" is a familiar epithet here. One thing about the antipodes, wearing shorts virtually 12 months of the year is perfectly acceptable on the street and most casual working environments. I think *something* has been done to the NZ psyche by having been educated at some stage by a bloke wearing grey "walk shorts" with knee-length thick socks and leather sandals (and a shirt and tie for the more formal ones) - I think these days they dispense with the socks and the tie. Not to mention school uniforms (compulsory in most schools here) where boys wear shirt and jumper or blazer and shorts. Mmm, people talk about cultural/political differences - I wonder if any correlations can be made? Walk shorts = anti nukes? And what does this mean for the Scots and their kilts? > -----Original Message----- > From: Azalais Malfoy [mailto:tiamat at tsoft.com] [snip] > But then, men are not allowed to show their legs, and women > are. This sort of makes up for the fact that women are not > allowed to show their chests in American culture. There are > VERY few places where men can wear short pants. > > ~malfoy --------________--------________-------- From lskale at metaplaxia.net Tue May 6 07:42:58 2003 From: lskale at metaplaxia.net (Kale) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 23:42:58 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Technical Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030505232232.0208abe8@mail.fxsonet.com> At 11:57 AM 5/5/2003 -0500, Andrew Lambdin-Abraham wrote: [in response to Kevin Kennedy's question about how to hook up a dvd player to a tv and vcr] >I'm going to assume your VCR is fairly new, within the past 5 years or >so. Therefore, it ought to have some RCA type connectors. They come in >threes, red white and yellow. >Red and white are the stereo sound, and yellow is the video. You'll want >to get a 3 part RCA male to male cable (Radioshack is a decent place, or >CompUSA and similar spots). Plug this into the Output ports on your DVD, >and Inputs on your VCR. Make sure the yellow cable in on the yellow jacks >at both ends, and so forth. >I presume your VCR is already setup with the TV, so from here, all you >need to do is set your VCR to either Channel 3 or 4 (try both, see which >works) and it should just pass the DVD signal on through. Actually, I think you need to set the vcr to L or whatever the "line-in" channel is. (It comes before channel 2.) The tv should be set to whatever channel you normally use with the vcr. You might also want to toggle the tv/vtr button on the vcr (or vcr remote), which toggles it between tv mode (channel 3) and vcr mode (whatever channel the vcr is set to). My brother has an old 13" tv without RCA or S-video connectors and uses this method. (No RF modulator required.) >If you're interested in watching DVDs a fair amount, Netflix.com has a >pretty sweet setup. Check out DVDs, they're mailed to you, when you're >finished with them, drop them back in the mail and they'll send you more. Netflix is cool. I think my average was about three discs per week, as I was on their basic plan and it did take a few days for them to receive the dvds and dispatch new ones. You can also rent from Blockbuster or borrow from the library or friends. Kale (who still uses the vcr to tape off tv) --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Tue May 6 07:49:42 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 23:49:42 -0700 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/5 @ 2:30PM CDT In-Reply-To: <20030505205522.GA31116@fireopal.org> References: <20030505194509.GA30524@fireopal.org> <20030505205522.GA31116@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <3EB75B06.6080405@lvhot.org> Scott Raun wrote: > Having just checked my personal archives - this is the list that > claimed they were going to get the three copies on the 27th & 28th. > Do we believe they can foretell the future? Or do they just have > ... significantly large amounts of disposable income? You know, if you put enough bills in a crystal ball, it helps the predictions quite a bit. Speaking only for myself, mixing a decent job with no life results in a byproduct of disposable income. And now we have a dark horse! Robert --------________--------________-------- From mdbrazier at juno.com Tue May 6 08:03:29 2003 From: mdbrazier at juno.com (Michael D Brazier) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 02:03:29 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Religions Message-ID: <20030506.020350.-135501.3.mdbrazier@juno.com> On 05 May 2003 20:26:43 +1200 Anita Neal writes: > > To return to my original question, though, I do think that since > the story of Baba Yaga has survived on Barrayar, the Orthodox > church or at least some echo of the Christian faith would survive, > at least on the level of folk religion. And given the historic role of > state-sponsored religion in propping up authoritarian regimes, I > really would have imagined the presence of some elderly man > wearing a dress and a funny hat at coronations, royal weddings > and such. But can you imagine any branch of the Orthodox Church being willing to sanction infanticide? The fact that Barrayarans practiced infanticide in the Time of Isolation argues against any presence of Christianity, above the level of "folk religion". And while Barrayarans are superstitious, there's no sign of any _organized_ religious cult, even where you would expect to find it. Weddings, for instance: if there were such things as priests on Barrayar, they would officiate at weddings, and they don't. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Tue May 6 08:04:19 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 00:04:19 -0700 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update In-Reply-To: <001e01c31359$8072cc50$6e01a8c0@D6FL1B21> References: <001e01c31359$8072cc50$6e01a8c0@D6FL1B21> Message-ID: <3EB75E73.9040408@lvhot.org> Robert Warnicke responded to Christine: >>> The current high bids are: >>> ndrosen at erols.com $300 5/5, 9:35AM >>> carosue at centurytel.net $250 5/5, 1:27AM >>> rparks at lvhot.org $225 5/3, 2:21PM >>> Robert at WarnickeLittler.com $205 5/4, 12:34PM >> Interesting. There seem to be five people who are serious >> about wanting a copy and only 3 copies to be had. I can't >> wait to see what the highest bid ends up as. > Bah Humbug! The proper description of this is not > "Interesting" but "Expensive", and so far its $45 dollars > cheaper to me than Carosue! And now it is $205 cheaper! Anyway, it is your turn to ante up! ;) I'll admit that expensive is approaching, but, er, Expensive is still a ways off. > Just out of curiosity, What did the Galley's go for on Ebay > last time? Early ones for $65 to $85. I'm guessing the Paladin ARCs on Ebay will be at or above that range...currently they are in the low 50s and 60s. Side note, is "lynnmcalvin" a listie handle? In case someone wants to bid that auction up? I recognize the other high bidders on both auctions. Robert --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Tue May 6 08:12:11 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 00:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Religions In-Reply-To: <20030506.020350.-135501.3.mdbrazier@juno.com> Message-ID: <20030506001133.I33412-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Tue, 6 May 2003, Michael D Brazier wrote: > But can you imagine any branch of the Orthodox Church being > willing to sanction infanticide? > > The fact that Barrayarans practiced infanticide in the Time of > Isolation argues against any presence of Christianity, above the > level of "folk religion". A lot of people in medieval Europe would be shocked to hear that. ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Tue May 6 08:15:59 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 08:15:59 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Speedos (WAS:- Freedom) In-Reply-To: <200305060205.h46254r5001771@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030506080802.00af64c8@pop.luna.co.uk> Countryboy considers that:- >For some people, speedos should be outlawed. My girlfriend agrees. But, dammit, dire as I may look in 'em, [A] I can swim a couple of miles in 'em without chafing my thighs, and [B] they do not slowly knot under a wetsuit and cut off blood supplies to vital parts. James - who continues to believe that comfort and functionality should trump appearance - a fat man like me probably looks pretty gross in ship knits (or whatever Lois calls the undergarment for a pressure suit) too --------________--------________-------- From oppen at mycns.net Tue May 6 08:31:43 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 02:31:43 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT-ish: Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes Message-ID: <014001c313a1$8b70e540$c4560043@hppav> One thing I like to point out to people who fuss and fret and fume about how Saudi women are expected to cover up is that Saudi _men_ do not exactly go flapping around doing the Full Monty thing. As a matter of fact, Saudi men cover up almost as much as the women do; the difference is mostly in the cut of the clothes. It isn't an Islamic thing, so much as a _Mediterranean_ thing. Ibn Battuta was shocked to see even the wives of the kings in the Moslem kingdoms he visited south of the Sahara going about nude or nearly nude. (He was quite pleased, OTOH, at their custom of putting boys in chains until they could recite the whole Koran---sounds like he'd fit right in with some conservative types I know). Women in Ancient Greece generally wore about as much as modern Saudi women do, which is fairly good proof around these parts that Mohammed had nothing to do with it. It so happens that here-and-now, bare breasts on a woman (outside of a situation such as breast-feeding) is considered a very clear sexual signal. Different cultures have different customs---our list-member Kiri would probably be willing to confirm that in old Japan, mixed nude bathing was no big deal, but for a woman to lower her kimono and show a man the back of her neck meant that she was seriously interested in Doing The Wild Thing. These customs do not have to make sense; they just are. (And yes, I do know that _some_ customs deserve to be brought down in flames; I just don't quite see this as anywhere nearly on the level of forbidding people of a certain colour to use public facilities paid for with their tax monies, and I do think that using that particular analogy, or that of Nazi Germany, for every minor case of unfairness merely trivializes the great evils being used as heavy artillery to squash opposition) Personally, I'm glad to see "business casual" being more accepted. I have gained some weight since I last bought a suit, and would really, really rather not lay out tons of money for another one if I can get away with a ni ce-ish shirt with a collar and a pair of non-jeans trousers when I'm called in to work. I've always said that just because the British set mens' fashions, and _their_ stupid climate makes suits-with-ties reasonably sensible wear most of the time, doesn't mean that we have to follow suit (if you'll pardon the phrase)---after all, if the British all went and jumped in the Thames River, would you want to go do that? (Not me---the "water" in the Thames would beggar H.P. Lovecraft's power of description!) The Filipinos have a very nice national shirt (disremember the name) that is acceptable wear at the most formal occasions, and is well-suited to their climate. This strikes me as eminently sensible. I have long since conceded all arguments made by nudists, but will not follow their example until I manage to lose a great deal of weight, and manage to grow skin that's sunburn- and mosquito-proof, and has pockets to keep things in. --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Tue May 6 08:34:22 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 03:34:22 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Religions References: <20030506001133.I33412-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <3EB7657B.BEE027FF@redmaplegrove.org> Azalais Malfoy wrote: > On Tue, 6 May 2003, Michael D Brazier wrote: > > > The fact that Barrayarans practiced infanticide in the Time of > > Isolation argues against any presence of Christianity, above the > > level of "folk religion". > > A lot of people in medieval Europe would be shocked to hear that. Yep. But it was officially forbidden, and even at the folk-practice level it was seriously contested. The fact that Barrayaran society at all levels (from Ma Mattulich to Piotr) *openly condoned it* and it was, for example, incorporated into the wedding ceremonies, argues for, at the very least, incredible, radical changes in Christianity, Islam, or Judaism if it was present in any concentration. Else there would have been, at least, pockets of resistance. And had there been major pockets of resistance, there'd be areas with high mutation rates, which there aren't as far as we know. Hmm. Can we argue a resurgence in Classical Greco-Roman ideas within any presently existent large-enough-to-be-a-plausible-candidate sect of Christianity? I don't have the background to flesh that one out. Anyone? Alternately, can we plausibly reinterpret any piece of scripture to prescribe infanticide in cases of deformity? Also, was there ever sex-selection through infanticide? We have the textev that Barrayarans are all about sex-selection, given an easy way to do it. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From labmousie at hotmail.com Tue May 6 08:38:32 2003 From: labmousie at hotmail.com (annie mouse) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 03:38:32 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom Message-ID: >From: Azalais Malfoy >Well, I really don't think there is anything wrong with bare legs >if flesh-toned pantyhose are allowed. A flesh-toned covering is >not a covering if it is see-through. As far as I'm concerned >pantyhose, whatever their color, are just a waste of money >because I can only wear them once or twice before they're >destroyed. I'll wear nylon tights or socks but they're heavy >enough not to be destroyed if I breathe wrong. I feel the same >way about sheer stockings. I agree! I've never understood why see-through pantyhose is required for "business attire." Although they do make legs look thinner, they are the MOST uncomfortable, itchy, hot, creations! Especially during a 9 block walk to work in the summer or strolling around during lunch =(. Expensive too (given the replacement rate)! I'm not even entirely sure how or why people even notice. In the past, when I decided to forgo the stockings, I got disapproving looks. (I do not wear short skirts [about knee length]!) Question: I forget who, but someone mentioned an annoyance at open toed shoes. Is that a business standard? I hear somewhat mixed answers about that. Are nice shoes (not normal sandles or anything of the like) a work "no-no" because they are open-toed? annie *..*_~ _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Tue May 6 08:43:42 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 03:43:42 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT-ish: Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes References: <014001c313a1$8b70e540$c4560043@hppav> Message-ID: <3EB767AA.C87ECBFA@redmaplegrove.org> Eric Oppen wrote: > Saudi men cover up almost as much as the women do; the difference is mostly in the cut > of the clothes. Generally they do, yes. But they *need* not. The Saudi Embassy is around here; I've seen 'em in shorts and tshirts. That NEED is a *big* difference. > It isn't an Islamic thing, Well, it is partially, not wholly. Rather, there exists an Islamic thing: men have a Qu'ranic modesty taboo -- Muslim men are to be covered from the knees to the navel at all times. The covering is not to be tight. They are not to wear silk (there's a lot of local option on that one). They are not to wear makeup. They may or may not be required to wear SOME headcovering. The basic, almost never ignored taboo for women is: elbows to collarbone to ankles, plus hair. Clothes are not to be tight. This is about the point in any thread about Islam where Fatima generally shows up to fix my factual errors. Fatima? Where are you? We miss you... Marna, who should probably go and find her cd-rom Hadith collection again. . --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Tue May 6 08:51:46 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 03:51:46 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT-ish: Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes References: <014001c313a1$8b70e540$c4560043@hppav> <3EB767AA.C87ECBFA@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <3EB7698E.AD77A7C6@redmaplegrove.org> Marna Nightingale wrote: Actually, I can break that one down further: > [Men] may or may not be required to wear > SOME headcovering. Sunni; probably not. Probably no beard, either. Shi'a: probably. And probably a beard. Druse: yes. and yes to a beard. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From sbanker at purdue.edu Tue May 6 09:43:14 2003 From: sbanker at purdue.edu (Samantha Banker) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 03:43:14 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c313ab$88d39990$91c9d380@BANKER> I guess I'm in the female minority then. When I wear flats (a rare occasion currently), if I don't wear knee highs, my feet get sweaty and uncomfortable. Also, if I'm wearing a skirt, stockings make my thighs chafe less. So sometimes I wear them (like when I am wearing dress shoes), but other times, I don't (usually when I'm just around the house or at the renn faire in garb). ---Samantha -----Original Message----- From: lois-bujold-admin at lists.herald.co.uk [mailto:lois-bujold-admin at lists.herald.co.uk] On Behalf Of annie mouse Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:39 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: [LMB] OT: freedom I agree! I've never understood why see-through pantyhose is required for "business attire." Although they do make legs look thinner, they are the MOST uncomfortable, itchy, hot, creations! Especially during a 9 block walk to work in the summer or strolling around during lunch =(. Expensive too (given the replacement rate)! I'm not even entirely sure how or why people even notice. In the past, when I decided to forgo the stockings, I got disapproving looks. (I do not wear short skirts [about knee length]!) --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Tue May 6 08:37:50 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 08:37:50 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Tropical Dress (WAS OT:- Freedom) In-Reply-To: <200305060651.h466p6r5002958@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030506083113.00b058f8@pop.luna.co.uk> Marna alleges that:- >There must be a nice web-order place somewhere >in the tropical countries of the world... Mayur Tailors E-27 South Extension Part-II New Delhi [+91-11-642-8189] do really nice made-to-measure safari suits quite cheaply - but they're not on the Web. James - who needs to visit them again --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Tue May 6 09:56:17 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 09:56:17 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT:- Marines and Gazelles In-Reply-To: <200305060651.h466p6r5002958@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030506084634.028c0008@pop.luna.co.uk> Damian cites:- http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_771853.html?menu=news.latestheadlines But barbecuing Gazelle on a truck radiator grille is a bit barbaric. Venison pasties are much better - and may be held in the hand to be eaten. Saute finely-chopped onion in olive oil until soft, add gazelle (or other small deer/antelope - I'm eating springbok in an hour or so's time) chopped into 1 cm cubes and cook for a few minutes (INITIAL volumes of meat and onion should be approximately equal - onion, of course, will reduce). Add an equal volume of raw potato, also in 1 cm cubes, and a little vermouth and a stock cube, and cook in a covered pan very gently until the potato is cooked. Add pepper and, if necessary, a little flour to thicken the juice. Roll shortcrust pastry to 2.5 mm thickness and cut into 20 cm circles. Spoon filling into the centre and pull up edges, crimping shut into pasty shape. Bake at 200 C (400 F) in a pre-heated oven for half an hour on a greased baking tray. You can cook young peasants in the same way (older ones may be too tough) but I'm not sure about marines. James - revisiting old jokes --------________--------________-------- From dtilque at nwlink.com Tue May 6 10:44:37 2003 From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 02:44:37 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Toplessness References: <1dc.910f51f.2be87bcb@aol.com> Message-ID: <00b901c313b4$1c6c3380$b8a4adcf@nwlink.com> CatMtn at aol.com performed an arpeggio on a keyboard and produced: > > I didn't mean they _should_ be treated differently, but it's > an imperfect world. Most men would find it hard to believe > that they weren't trying to be sexual in their behavior, > complicated by the fact that some of the topless _would_ be > trying to behave in a sexually provocative manner. I think > society is moving in the direction of lowering nudity taboos, > but we're not quite that far along yet. If women routinely went topless, the breasts would become just another part of the body that women sometimes expose, not significantly different than the knees or back. Yes, there would be a transition period which would be as described above, but after a few years breast exposure would be unremarkable. The same thing has happened to other parts of the female body, starting with the ankles some 80 years ago or so and progressing up the leg but also including at various times, the shoulders, midriff, and navel. -- Dan Tilque --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Tue May 6 11:26:38 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 06:26:38 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Toplessness References: <1dc.910f51f.2be87bcb@aol.com> <00b901c313b4$1c6c3380$b8a4adcf@nwlink.com> Message-ID: <3EB78DDE.3DE4337C@redmaplegrove.org> Dan Tilque wrote: > > CatMtn at aol.com performed an arpeggio on a keyboard and produced: > > > > > I didn't mean they _should_ be treated differently, but it's > > an imperfect world. > > If women routinely went topless, the breasts would become just > another part of the body that women sometimes expose, not > significantly different than the knees or back. Yes. An imperfect world it is and will be, but it's not getting any better as long as I just sit here and do nothing about it, that's my feeling ... Marna. --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Tue May 6 13:32:50 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 07:32:50 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <3EB7293B.D13EF0CA@redmaplegrove.org> References: <20030505194003.Y2316-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030506072539.02dfc390@mail.iqcisp.com> At 11:17 PM 5/5/2003 -0400, Marna Nightingale wrote: >Azalais Malfoy wrote: > > > Corporate drag is not a style of dress that evolved > > for semitropical or tropical climates, yet we really don't have a > > good alternative that sends the same businesslike message in this > > culture. > >Cotton dresses (close to or past the knee, some notion of a sleeve) >Rock My World. Yeah, they too don't look great on every woman, but >there's enough variation in style that you can probably do okay, and >if a person can't be glam, at least one may be Crisp. If one has the >money, there is linen. Or a blend of both. Super-light *unlined* >short-sleeved loose-skirted suits are nice, too. I was at a renaissance fair last weekend, which in Texas with 80% humidity is like a broad-based study in heatstroke. Clothes that look sharp, and that were hugely practical for northern Europe during the little ice age, can have the wearer keeling over by noon down here. We'll watch somebody go by in a particularly unfortunate costume (e.g. ninja swathed to the eyeballs in black) and make side bets about how long they stay upright. Personally, I do a variation of a style I call Mexican Peasant -- heavy cotton gauze long-sleeved blouse and long skirt, both faire purchases, with a broad-brimmed straw hat. I miss out on the sexy and the playful aspects of dressing up, but I don't need much sunscreen and I stay as cool as anybody can out there. It looked great last year when I was six months along, all Earth Mother with flowers on the hat. Louann --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Tue May 6 13:39:37 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 07:39:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT-ish: Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes In-Reply-To: <014001c313a1$8b70e540$c4560043@hppav> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030506073814.02df4350@mail.iqcisp.com> At 02:31 AM 5/6/2003 -0500, Eric Oppen wrote: >I have long since conceded all arguments made by nudists, but will not >follow their example until I manage to lose a great deal of weight, and >manage to grow skin that's sunburn- and mosquito-proof, and has pockets to >keep things in. ObLatestBigMovie: Mystique seems to have solved that problem some way or other. Louann, who hasn't. --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Tue May 6 14:19:50 2003 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 09:19:50 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom References: <20030505194003.Y2316-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <3EB7B675.AA7644C7@erols.com> Azalais Malfoy wrote: > I am fairly > sure I wouldn't last a day in a traditional business suit (blouse > or shirt under lined jacket) in LA--and I *know* my deodorant > wouldn't. Corporate drag is not a style of dress that evolved > for semitropical or tropical climates, yet we really don't have a > good alternative that sends the same businesslike message in this > culture. Why not? I have. Any business environment I have been in in LA/San Diego (and I was out there ALOT in the last five years) is so heavily air-conditioned as to be abusive. A/C hotel to A/C car to A/C conference room. No sweat, as they say. And that's why they make tropical weight suits. Acceptable alternatives seem to be built around the "Ladies Who Lunch" wardrobe: constructed dresses, country-club casual (no khalkis or polos). The bottom line is that clothing manufacturers are trying to drive fashion to extremely skimpy deconstructed clothes in lightweight fabrics because (hold for the big surprise here) they are cheap to make and let them increase their profit margin. . --------________--------________-------- From Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com Tue May 6 14:56:50 2003 From: Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com (Tom Vinson) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 08:56:50 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion and tornadoes OT: Message-ID: For an interesting take on a (fictional) girl's experience with Orthodox Judaism see Chaim Potok's _Davita's Harp_. A nun friend of mine spent a number of years in Johannisberg. She lived at a retreat center in one of the less desirable parts of town. The closest shop was a small general store/post office run by a Muslim Indian woman. One day a drunk came in and made himself generally obnoxious. The owner paid him no attention at first, but when he started becoming abusive she simply took one of the ends of her head scarf and wrapped it around her face. In effect, "I don't have to look at you, and I don't have to let you look at me." Tornado: The real weather passed north of Tulsa--we didn't even get any rain. Pierce City, almost wiped out, is in southwest Missouri, a bit east of Joplin. Crawford County in southeast Kansas had extensive property damage. Victoria L'Ecuyer is in Manhattan, Kansas. I don't know of any listees in KS/MO/OK closer than that. Tom --------________--------________-------- From swartell at cas.org Tue May 6 16:37:50 2003 From: swartell at cas.org (Sue Wartell) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 11:37:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Religions Message-ID: <200305061537.h46FbnsD018535@srv01.cas.org> Marna said: >... Else there would have been, at least, pockets of >resistance. And had there been major pockets of resistance, there'd >be areas with high mutation rates, which there aren't as far as we >know. I would argue that there is no need to believe that at this point in history there _would_ be a high concentration of mutants in a sect or group which had forbidden infaticide on Barrayar. I'm not sure it was ever necessary or effective even when it was practiced widely. It's very clear that the "mutants" that are candidates for infanticide that we read about in the books are ones that _look_ different. Has nothing to do with genotype (what state the genes are in) and everything to do with phenotype (what the baby looks like, which may be determined by factors other than genetics, as in the case of Miles). This looks and sounds to me more like paranoia at work than any rationally justifiable cleaning of the gene pool. People do stupid things when they are scared, and in our own world those who are different in any externally discernable way are frequently regarded with fear and/or suspicion, or are ignored. I suggest the following scenario - unsupported by canon, so far as I know - After the "passage through the fire", the number of abnormalities in newborns increased. Things were going/had gone wrong in a BIG way. In a panic, people decided they had to do "something" to save their society and ensure its survival. They retained enough information about genetics to feel that killing the babies with "bad genes" would prevent those bad genes from being passed along. They did not retain the sophistication to understand that there were many more mutations that would result in problems not externally visible, or not expressed until later in life. (There is no evidence I can recall that they used any genetic screening tests before they reconnected with the rest of the Vorkoverse.) Particularly in places like Silvy Vale, there seemed to me to be an attitude of "that's just the way life is, I had to suffer with it, so you do too." It was an article of faith, not open to discussion or reasoning. I don't remember the details, but I'm not sure any of Ma Matutlich's "mutant babies" was particularly badly malformed (sorry, I'll have to go back and re-read the story) - webbed fingers was one, IIRC, and failure to thrive, maybe another.) After all, there is a certain background mutation rate even under ideal circumstances. Small, inbreeding, populations are at risk for genetic drift, and for various genetic diseases, particularly those that are late-onset (i.e., that occur after the person has had children and passed the bad genes along.) That may have fed the paranoia. However, unless the mutagenic agent(s) are still rampant in the environment, I'm not at all convinced there has been any real point to the infanticide for the past several hundred years. (I'm working here from Barrayar's point of view, so please don't try to start an argument with me about whether infanticide is ever justified.) Sue, in Columbus, OH where we have not (so far) been hit by the rash of tornadoes and other severe weather --------________--------________-------- From kevink45 at hotmail.com Tue May 6 16:47:49 2003 From: kevink45 at hotmail.com (Kevin Kennedy) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 11:47:49 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: my thanks Message-ID: Thank you everybody for the DVD hookup suggestions. I'll see what happens. And thank you Michael, for finding the passage I recollected in EOA. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --------________--------________-------- From bhurt at spnz.org Tue May 6 17:01:01 2003 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 11:01:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] OT-ish: Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes In-Reply-To: <014001c313a1$8b70e540$c4560043@hppav> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 2003, Eric Oppen wrote: > It so happens that here-and-now, bare breasts on a woman (outside of a > situation such as breast-feeding) is considered a very clear sexual signal. > Different cultures have different customs---our list-member Kiri would > probably be willing to confirm that in old Japan, mixed nude bathing was no > big deal, but for a woman to lower her kimono and show a man the back of her > neck meant that she was seriously interested in Doing The Wild Thing. These > customs do not have to make sense; they just are. I liken it to which side of the road you drive on- it doesn't much matter, so long as everyone *agrees*. Humans need some form of communication to say "hey, I'd like to jump your bones" and reply yes or no, as desired. And simply directly asking isn't any *fun* (obviously). Deftly bringing this subject back on topic, I'll mention Betan earrings as an example. I'd don't have specific textev, but from the impressions I've gotten you could probably walk down a reasonably busy betan hallway and see every possible peice of flesh exposed on someone. On Beta, it's not the flesh that's the signal, it's the earrings. Ceta has an incredibly complicated system that probably changes about every three months- if you're not in the know, you have no prayer of figuring things out. Barrayar, I think, uses cloth styles and cuts to signify. Consider Ekaterin's comments about wearing "mourning garb" to try and wave off suitors. Or her dressing as a "proper Vor matron". The signal that Ekaterin wants the cloths to send is clear- "I'm married, I'm a mother, I'm off the market". Which sheds light on my original question (for those who can't read the article, the defense the lady in question put up was that going topless was protected free speech). Currently, in most social situations, going topless *is* communication- it says "I want to jump your bones". That was (I hope) not the message the lady wanted to convey. In fact, implicit in her statements was that there was no communication of any sort intended, other than "I am not wearing a shirt". Why I'm bothering to include this link is left as an exercise to the reader: http://www.salon.com/ent/wire/2003/05/06/dixie_chicks/index.html Brian --------________--------________-------- From nlbarber at mac.com Tue May 6 16:51:46 2003 From: nlbarber at mac.com (Nancy L. Barber) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 11:51:46 -0400 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update In-Reply-To: <3EB75E73.9040408@lvhot.org> References: <001e01c31359$8072cc50$6e01a8c0@D6FL1B21> <3EB75E73.9040408@lvhot.org> Message-ID: At 12:04 AM -0700 5/6/03, Robert Parks wrote: >Side note, is "lynnmcalvin" a listie handle? In case someone wants >to bid that auction up? I recognize the other high bidders on both >auctions. I don't think Lynn Calvin is here, but she's on some other lists I'm on. But I bid against her anyway. Nancy Barber --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 6 17:15:09 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 12:15:09 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom References: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F53702A7C98F@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> Message-ID: <047001c313ea$e74268f0$630d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracy MacShane" > > But then, men are not allowed to show their legs, and women > > are. This sort of makes up for the fact that women are not > > allowed to show their chests in American culture. There are > > VERY few places where men can wear short pants. > > That depends on the climate and the time of year -- I had a college professor who was from I think Sweden originally, who wore shorts spring semester, a shirt, and a string-type tie. It was a fluid mechanics class, and there was one morning when the class was held outside, even. --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Tue May 6 17:18:51 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 09:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030506072539.02dfc390@mail.iqcisp.com> Message-ID: <20030506091717.B24026-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Tue, 6 May 2003, Louann Miller wrote: > I was at a renaissance fair last weekend, which in Texas with 80% humidity > is like a broad-based study in heatstroke. Clothes that look sharp, and > that were hugely practical for northern Europe during the little ice age, > can have the wearer keeling over by noon down here. We'll watch somebody go > by in a particularly unfortunate costume (e.g. ninja swathed to the > eyeballs in black) and make side bets about how long they stay upright. Heh. I used to do that at Faires in Kentucky during the worst of the summer heat. I was always Cavalier, but I'd take off my doublet or wear a sleeveless bodice during the day. I found that the heavy, sexy stuff was best worn at night. ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From Robert at WarnickeLittler.com Tue May 6 17:26:29 2003 From: Robert at WarnickeLittler.com (Robert Warnicke) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 09:26:29 -0700 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update In-Reply-To: <200305061101.h46B1Zr5003977@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <000001c313ec$4044b4c0$6e01a8c0@D6FL1B21> Christine thought the bidding was "Interesting" I wrote: > > Bah Humbug! The proper description of this is not > > "Interesting" but "Expensive", and so far its $45 dollars > > cheaper to me than Carosue! Robert Parks wrote: > And now it is $205 cheaper! Anyway, it is your turn to ante up! > ;) I'll admit that expensive is approaching, but, er, Expensive > is still a ways off. Hmmm. Math wasn't isn't my strong point, but it looks like I'm only $95 behind the "leader". Are you *sure* you have as much discretionary income as you think. :) I *might* be played out. Its getting rich enough to interfere with my Jaguar repair scheme. Most people wouldn't drive it that way it looks right now (of course, I drove it to victory in the slaloms last weekend, showing that tuning is more important than looking). Last time I looked I couldn't get many Jaguar parts for under $300, and really I'm looking at a difference of something less that $95 since I already committed to $205. The parts all seem to be made of a strange substance called Unobtainium, I'm beginning to think these Galleys may be made of that stuff too... -------- Robert W --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Tue May 6 14:00:28 2003 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 14:00:28 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion OT: Message-ID: > From: Marna Nightingale > Date: 05 May 2003 21:21 > > lorraine fletez-brant wrote: > > > As some Saudi women friends (who had been my language students > > and then became friends) almost 20 years ago said, under Islam, women were > > allowed to retain their property when they married - > > And the management therof. And they had property, because not only > did their dowries remain theirs, they inherit and cannot be cut out of [...] > They also had to be supported until remarriage if divorced, and while If you mean supported by the ex-husband, have you a cite showing the source of such a rule ? I read a item by a Middle-Eastern divorcee who said it was a matter for the marriage contract and her brothers had refused to countenance such a clause. Further, there was a controversy in India during which it became clear that the traditionalist Muslims there would rather see the divorced wife starve (if her relatives could not or would not support her) than have the husband compelled to support her. -- Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Tue May 6 13:49:57 2003 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 13:49:57 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion OT: Message-ID: > From: lorraine fletez-brant > Date: 05 May 2003 22:47 > [...] > I see your point, but my example still stands. > > I guarantee you if I trot outside starkers right now, someone wearing some > sort of official-looking raiment is going to help me become a guest of > Sheriff Joe Arpaio's spacious and comfortable accommodations. I probably > won't be beaten, but I'll certainly be jailed. But that's not a universal, even for all common law countries, any more than adultery being criminal is. In England the offense, IIRC, only applies to men and to prosecute a female you would have to try to prove something like "insulting behavior". -- Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Tue May 6 17:44:14 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 11:44:14 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Toplessness In-Reply-To: <00b901c313b4$1c6c3380$b8a4adcf@nwlink.com> References: <1dc.910f51f.2be87bcb@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030506114335.02df8060@mail.iqcisp.com> At 02:44 AM 5/6/2003 -0700, Dan Tilque wrote: >If women routinely went topless, the breasts would become just >another part of the body that women sometimes expose, not >significantly different than the knees or back. Yes, there would >be a transition period which would be as described above, but >after a few years breast exposure would be unremarkable. > >The same thing has happened to other parts of the female body, >starting with the ankles some 80 years ago or so and progressing >up the leg but also including at various times, the shoulders, >midriff, and navel. And the male body, for that matter. Men going topless was a no-no to Victorians as well IIRC. Louann --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 6 17:24:36 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 12:24:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT-ish: Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes References: <014001c313a1$8b70e540$c4560043@hppav> Message-ID: <048901c313ef$6fac2510$630d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Oppen" > .... I've always said that just because the British set mens' > fashions, and _their_ stupid climate makes suits-with-ties reasonably > sensible wear most of the time, doesn't mean that we have to follow suit (if > you'll pardon the phrase)---after all, if the British all went and jumped in > the Thames River, would you want to go do that? (Not me---the "water" in > the Thames would beggar H.P. Lovecraft's power of description!) There's a group in Boston called "the L Street Brownies" which goes into the water in Boston Harbor every January 1st. That's -got- to be colder than a dip in the Thames! (And no, they're not bundled up, they're in ordinary bathing suits.) --------________--------________-------- From scott.r.padget at boeing.com Tue May 6 17:57:21 2003 From: scott.r.padget at boeing.com (Padget, Scott R) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 11:57:21 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Comment from my newest convert (now OT:) Message-ID: Sorry this is past the Three Day Limit. But it's important to me, and I think ought to be said in public. Susan Profit discussed her favorite characters: > Cordelia, I wish I could grow up to be > like her one day, but I know reality is such that it is beyond the > stars of possibility. Dear lady, that may be true. But only because you already *are*. There are reasons, you know, why so many people remember you fondly as "Mama Fiona" 15 years and more after you touch their lives. Bless you. Scott Padget--setting aside the "Pilot" persona just this once --------________--------________-------- From scott.r.padget at boeing.com Tue May 6 18:01:41 2003 From: scott.r.padget at boeing.com (Padget, Scott R) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 12:01:41 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Galley auction and disposable incomes [OT:] Message-ID: Lynette (much snippage): > The fact that it is for charity can make a big difference. > Every year a friend and I go to a local Humane Society "Mardi Gras" Party > and Auction. > I beat her out on a romantic weekend get-away package this year > it is for the puppies and kitties!! > Now all I have to do is lure Pilot up to Seattle sometime this summer Well, gee, if it's all in the name of the puppies and kittens, how can I refuse? ;-) Pilot Padget--who can never resist those big soft eyes --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 6 18:10:39 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 13:10:39 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Religions References: <20030506001133.I33412-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <3EB7657B.BEE027FF@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <048a01c313f2$6b7d4110$630d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marna Nightingale" [snip] > The fact that Barrayaran society at all levels (from Ma Mattulich to > Piotr) *openly condoned it* and it was, for example, incorporated into > the wedding ceremonies, argues for, at the very least, incredible, > radical changes in Christianity, Islam, or Judaism if it was present > in any concentration. Else there would have been, at least, pockets of > resistance. And had there been major pockets of resistance, there'd > be areas with high mutation rates, which there aren't as far as we > know. > > Hmm. Can we argue a resurgence in Classical Greco-Roman ideas within > any presently existent large-enough-to-be-a-plausible-candidate sect > of Christianity? I don't have the background to flesh that one out. Anyone? > > Alternately, can we plausibly reinterpret any piece of scripture to > prescribe infanticide in cases of deformity? > Perhaps the argument made was that a "mutie" was an evil soulless being, with the deformity being proof of being evil and soullessness? In the Boston's Museum of Fine Arts, there's a series of medieval Christian tapestries, showing the host converting into a heart, and the miracle drowning sorcerers who had been walking on water, causing doubting women in church to sudden become True Believers, and other almost game-show-like spectables "Throws out the Host, and Here Comes the Miracle!" Drowning evil sorcerers, etc., was not morally repugnant to medieval Christianity, otherwise why go to the extreme effort and expense to produce a very large tapestry about it?! > Also, was there ever sex-selection through infanticide? We have the > textev that Barrayarans are all about sex-selection, given an easy way > to do it. > Massive sex selection occurred following the advent of uterine replicators on Barrayar, however, they weren't available before then, and the only way for a Barrayaran male to have children, was to have a fertile wife, and the only way for a Barrayaran woman to have children, was to bear them herself. There are cultures on this planet which don't seem to have tremendous respect for women, and have very large families -- the role of woman as breeder in cultures historically, has produced some, but not all that many, cultures which have practiced infanticide. Modern Pakistan and Afghanistan prior to Taliban it's prevalent in, it occurred in ancient Greece.... but the reasons for it in those cultures is a combination of economic, and in parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan, the women regarding it as kinder to kill their baby daughters than subject them to their lives until so-called "strict Islamic Law" [which apparently violates the Koran regarding the treatment allowed to women....] [source of data about cause of infanticide in Pakistan and Afghanistan -- a report made by US mostly Boston-based physicians who travel to various parts of the world to provide volunteer medical services, shown on TV locally three or four years ago. They were pleading for US action in those areas and the plight of women and children under Taliban in Afghanistan and its associates in Pakistan who are no less repellent] Regarding the economic issues, in ancient Greece, and India and Pakistan, the requirement for parents of daughters to provide a dowry for their daughter, to be unavailable to the family because it went/goes with the daughter to her husband's family upon her marriage, was a major factor. Another was that a son was seen as contributing labor and income and financial benefit to the family, and when acquiring a wife, adding to the family finances via the dowry of the new bride. There's a particularly despicable cultural practice occurring in the Indian subcontinent called "bride burning," which is exactly what it sounds like.... the family the bride's married into, decides the dowry isn't attractive enough, and starts looking around for another girl with a bigger dowry, and murders the existing one. In cultures where girls and women have the standing/are allowed to directly earn an income of their own, bride burning and infanticide don't happen, because they are seen as economically beneficial to their birth families, or at least, not a financial burden which over time will cost the family a substantial proportion of its net worth, and perhaps cause financial failure to the family. Also, the daughters aren't seen as really being "family," they're seen instead as burdens which are going to become part of someone else's family and benefit those others, bringing a dowry and providing children to -that- family, at the expense to the birth family of rearing the daughter and providing a dowry. Barrayar, I think that women could and did work, at least below the Vor class. And in that situation, infanticide wouldn't be economically attractive, because the girls and women could contribute income to their birth families. In ancient Greece, and in Taliban Afghanistan and the parts of Pakistan with the same attitudes and behavior, with free-born and free-raised women sesquestered inside women's quarters in the house and not allowed outside unaccompanied by a male relative, and prohibited from direct economic activities participationg, that wasn't/isn't true. In Greece, "exposure" didn't denote infanticide -- exposed children were a relative of "children left on the steps of churches" in Christian Europe, where the children were left by parents who felt unable to care for them/raise them, to be raised as orphans. In ancient Greece, exposed children were left for others to take to raise as slaves: the rules for slaves were different than the rules for free-born, free-raised children. Slave women could participate in economic activities, and were of economic value in terms of textiles production, cooking, cleaning, commerce, entertainment of various sorts, etc. They didn't have dowries, and weren't sequestered, and therefore were substantially less of an expense than free-born free-raised daughters. Legitimate wives brought dowries and were the only way to have sons to perpetuate the family, therefore, legitimate wives were important to families -- but daughters were expensive luxuries, who would leave and take their expensive dowries with them, and be a major drain on the family resources. Infanticide occurs in -this- country -- the cases of it usually being a panicked teenager in denial of pregnancy who doesn't want a child, who doesn't see a way clear to leave the child somewhere to be adopted or otherwise taken custody of by others without being -punished- for it, without going through complicated adoption processes Baby abandonment laws with criminal sanctions on those abandoning babies, are one of the causes apparently.... some states enacted laws to decriminalize that for people to be able to leave babies at e.g. churches no questions asked, and that does seem to help a lot. But getting back to Barrayar, declaring that deformed child are the personification of Evil and must as evil be destroyed, could fit within religious considerations. Female infanticide, or expsoure, if not economically attractive as per historical situations, wouldn't occur for healthy girl babies. Also, women on Barrayar seem to have considerably higher status on Barrayar than in Taliban Afghanistan or ancient Athens, and aren't -sequestered-, meaning that they're regarded as -people- with rights.... --------________--------________-------- From lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov Tue May 6 18:18:03 2003 From: lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov (Jagoda, Lynette K) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 10:18:03 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Encouraging Bidding for Galleys.... Message-ID: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20034415@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> Lois Said a few months ago: I'm thinking three books, three charities -- SFWA EMF, the John M. Ford Trust, and probably the local homeless assistance program run by that big church downtown whose name escapes me. End Snip Rob just said: I *might* be played out. Its getting rich enough to interfere with my Jaguar repair scheme. End Snip Come on Rob Keep in mind ... this isn't just a great Lois book you are bidding on... the money goes to help SF writers in need and homeless people. ;-) How much better can it get? You get a signed copy, months early *and* get good "Karma, Mitzvah, etc." brownie points. You can buy Jaguar parts next month. Dig Deep!! And that goes for all you other crazy happy bidders too. Lynette <---- Who will be participating if Lois does this again with the next "Nexus" book, but who already spent a large portion of her non specifically committed yearly charity budget at the "Humane Society Auction" back in Feb. ;-) --------________--------________-------- From selene at earthlink.net Tue May 6 18:25:39 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 10:25:39 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT-ish: Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes [really OT: ] Message-ID: <3EB7F013.41A71E96@earthlink.net> Eric Oppen attempts to remember: "The Filipinos have a very nice national shirt (disremember the name) that is acceptable wear at the most formal occasions, and is well-suited to their climate. This strikes me as eminently sensible." The term you are looking for is Barong Tagalog. Here's where you can get one: http://www.mybarong.com/ I also admire the ubiquitous Hawaiian shirt, correct for every occasion. A Hawaiian couple I know who got married in the Los Angeles area a couple of weeks ago required Hawaiian shirts be worn by all attendees, including the photographer. I supplied him with one done up in a print of moons and planets, which was pronounced "neat-o" by the sci-fi loving bride. Susan Fox-Davis/Ma Foxti selene at earthlink.net --------________--------________-------- From selene at earthlink.net Tue May 6 18:29:15 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 10:29:15 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Q about Colon Tour Message-ID: <3EB7F0EA.228E0A23@earthlink.net> Professionally, I run a calendar of events [two really, see www.newscalendar.com] and I am having trouble figuring out when and where the Colossal Colon Tour will be in New York City and Los Angeles. The web site does not seem to be working for me at the moment. Also, interested in exactly what relationship Molly McMaster is to Her Ladyship. Daughter, niece, something else? Just curious. Susan Fox-Davis/Ma Foxti selene at earthlink.net --------________--------________-------- From carosue at centurytel.net Tue May 6 18:35:02 2003 From: carosue at centurytel.net (House of Unruly Fish) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 11:35:02 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Encouraging Bidding for Galleys.... In-Reply-To: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20034415@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030506113343.03ddc2b0@mail.so.centurytel.net> At 10:18 AM 5/6/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Lois Said a few months ago: >I'm thinking three books, three charities -- SFWA EMF, the John M. Ford >Trust, and probably the local homeless assistance program run by that big >church downtown whose name escapes me. >End Snip > >Rob just said: >I *might* be played out. Its getting rich enough to interfere with my >Jaguar repair scheme. >End Snip > >Come on Rob Keep in mind ... this isn't just a great Lois book you >are bidding on... the money goes to help SF > writers in need and homeless people. ;-) How much better can it get? > You get a signed copy, months early *and* get good "Karma, Mitzvah, etc." > brownie points. > >You can buy Jaguar parts next month. > >Dig Deep!! And that goes for all you other crazy happy bidders too. Oh, we're onto his game, Lynette! He's just trying to psych us out! Ha! Thinks he's dealing with AMATEURS or something!! Susan the Neon Nurse ++++++++++++++++++++++carosue at centurytel.net+++++++++++++++++++++ --------________--------________-------- From christine at forber.net Tue May 6 18:42:38 2003 From: christine at forber.net (Christine Forber) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 13:42:38 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Encouraging Bidding for Galleys.... In-Reply-To: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20034415@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> Message-ID: At 10:18 AM 5/6/2003 -0700, Jagoda, Lynette K wrote: > >Come on Rob Keep in mind ... this isn't just a great Lois book you >are bidding on... the money goes to help SF writers in need and homeless >people. ;-) How much better can it get? You get a signed copy, months >early *and* get good "Karma, Mitzvah, etc." brownie points. At least you folks get tax deductions for your charitable donations. Us Canadians (and the other non-US folks on the list) don't get that benefit. I wonder if Lois would consider a donation to a Canadian equivalent charity? Christine --------________--------________-------- From bhosler at partners.org Tue May 6 18:48:17 2003 From: bhosler at partners.org (Betsy Hosler) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 13:48:17 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: POS Galley Auction Update In-Reply-To: <200305052303.h45N3Ar5000968@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Re the updated bid to appear: No, it is not a typo. My husband Harrison finally worked through his usual slow deliberation as to what to bid. Calculated from his "uncommited charitable giving" budget, plus what he's willing to pay to read the book early. After looking up the lifetime list of works by author Ford, and who knows what other factors. Fair warning, I am instructed to add "whatever you [meaning me] would be inclined to donate" to that amount. I suspect the auction has gone beyond Lois' expectations, if not wildest dreams... Betsy H. repressing further comments --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Tue May 6 18:52:08 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 10:52:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] OT-ish: Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes [really OT: ] In-Reply-To: <3EB7F013.41A71E96@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030506105108.R24026-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Tue, 6 May 2003, Susan Fox-Davis wrote: > The term you are looking for is Barong Tagalog. Here's where you can > get one: > http://www.mybarong.com/ I'd wear that. I probably will get one. > I also admire the ubiquitous Hawaiian shirt, correct for every > occasion. I have a great purple one. At our local gaming con we all know that Sunday is Hawaiian Shirt day. It's so much fun to see all the colors! ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From paula at matuszek.org Tue May 6 19:13:08 2003 From: paula at matuszek.org (Paula Matuszek) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 14:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 2003, Nancy L. Barber wrote: > At 12:04 AM -0700 5/6/03, Robert Parks wrote: > >Side note, is "lynnmcalvin" a listie handle? In case someone wants > >to bid that auction up? I recognize the other high bidders on both > >auctions. > > I don't think Lynn Calvin is here, but she's on some > other lists I'm on. > > But I bid against her anyway. > > Nancy Barber Actually, I think you bid against me; I was the one that had a bid at $52.51, anyhow. I don't know that it's feasible to avoid bidding against other listees, actually. I overbid Robert before I saw his email about bidding as trolleypup, so I certainly can't complain if someone overbids me! (Hmmm; is "overbid" a word? Does it mean what I'm using it to mean?) -- The opinions expressed in this communication are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. --------________--------________-------- From RWinkelbauer at rocketmail.com Tue May 6 19:26:44 2003 From: RWinkelbauer at rocketmail.com (Ramona Winkelbauer) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 11:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: Tax Deductibility of PoS Galleys (Was: Encouraging Bidding for Galleys....) Message-ID: <20030506182644.72493.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com> Christine Forber wrote: >At least you [US] folks get tax deductions for your >charitable donations. Us Canadians (and the other >non-US folks on the list) don't get that benefit. I >wonder if Lois would consider a donation to a Canadian >equivalent charity? I would point out that while the current IRS regulations do allow charitable tax deductions, there are some pretty large caveats involved. Unless one is deducting a combination of expenses, [mortgage interest, medical expenses over 7.5% of adjusted gross income, etc., that total over $4,700], one's mental state might be questioned if s/he itemizes for a small amount (e.g., $500 for charity) when the standard deduction is larger for single, under 65 and non-blind individual(s). So, unless the US auction winner is presumed to be itemizing, these individuals could also possibly not be getting this purported "benefit". Ramona (part-time) Tax Counselor for the Elderly who has to tell the above bad news about charitable deductions to her clients, who have a larger standard deduction. Ref: , page 144 (Standard Deduction) and page 166 (Charitable Contributions). __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From iiradned at hotmail.com Tue May 6 19:49:00 2003 From: iiradned at hotmail.com (Patrick Vera) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 02:49:00 +0800 Subject: [LMB] OT-ish: Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes Message-ID: Erri Oppen wrote: >The Filipinos have a very nice national shirt (disremember the >name) that is acceptable wear at the most formal occasions, and is >well-suited to their climate. This strikes me as eminently sensible. Called the Barong Tagalog. The origin was during when was where a Spanish Colony where Filipinos wore their formai shirts tucked out. Barong are usually made out of light airy fabrics (usually white though other colors are available) and worn with an undershirt called a camisa chino. People wearing barongs wear dark colored trousers with them. There are several kinds of Barong depending on the occasion. There are everyday versions made of cotton and very formal ones made from jusi (don't know what fibers are used here) and pina (pineapple fibers). On another note I heard on an American gameshow that as long as is not for purposes of commercial solicatation women can go topless in New York City. ---- Patrick Vera Dendarii Free Mercenary Fleet Daring rescues our specialty. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov Mon May 5 23:34:47 2003 From: lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov (Jagoda, Lynette K) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 15:34:47 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion now OT: Message-ID: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20034412@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> Ray Drouillard says: Snips-- "By the way, homosexuality is not seen as a damning offence by Christians. It is true that homosexuality is seen as a particularly vile sin by many, but it is really on the same level as fornication, adultery, and the like -- in other words, something that many Christians indulge in. It is the very human revulsion for the act [1] that causes all the hubbub. In other words, a bunch of people have found a good excuse to go on a rampage against homosexuals, and have done so. [2] End Snips--- I concur with Ray's well expressed assessment. This is a major topic of contention because it squigs a lot of people on a gut level. And FYI if anybody is interested, there is a well written, seemingly well researched book out entitled "What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality". It contends that when you take the very few actual scriptures that even address this topic and look at them in their original languages within the correct historical/cultural framework of the times, what you find is that basically there is no real guidance on this topic one way or another. So all the extreme focus on this topic and severe condemnation for it is a later "cultural" overlay, not actually a part of what is considered foundational canonical Jewish/Christian texts. Lynette <---- Who is always intrigued by "historical context" for scriptures.... --------________--------________-------- From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu Tue May 6 20:07:05 2003 From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 14:07:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1052248025.3eb807d9659c6@webmailapp2.cc.utexas.edu> Quoting Paula Matuszek : > Actually, I think you bid against me; I was the one that had a bid at > $52.51, anyhow. > > I don't know that it's feasible to avoid bidding against other listees, > actually. I overbid Robert before I saw his email about bidding as > trolleypup, so I certainly can't complain if someone overbids me! > > (Hmmm; is "overbid" a word? Does it mean what I'm using it to mean?) I think the term is outbid, although that implies slightly to me a permanency that may not apply. You're certainly understandable, though. I think that it's a little unclear about what general policy on bidding is. As I recall, for DI the agreement was at least one auction would have a primary bidder, and others would contribute money if necessary, in exchange for being able to read it after the auction was one. I don't know if we intend to continue that. or what we're up to now. Andrew --------________--------________-------- From vlecuyer at ksu.edu Tue May 6 20:15:22 2003 From: vlecuyer at ksu.edu (Victoria L'Ecuyer) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 14:15:22 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Midwest Tornados OT: Talk to us, people... References: <200305052113.h45LD3r5032767@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EB809CA.861502FB@ksu.edu> Marna Nightingale http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/05/05/tornadoes030505 Everyone ok? Yes. I'm about 150 miles west of where the damage began. One of my sisters was more or less in line with the path the tornado took. In the early stages, it lifted and touched down a couple of times. Luckily, it skipped over her. Victoria --------________--------________-------- From christine at forber.net Tue May 6 20:27:21 2003 From: christine at forber.net (Christine Forber) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 15:27:21 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tax Deductibility of PoS Galleys (Was: Encouraging Bidding for Galleys....) In-Reply-To: <20030506182644.72493.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <261v2560yucd58l.060520031524@forber.net> At 11:26 AM 5/6/2003 -0700, Ramona Winkelbauer wrote: > >I would point out that while the current IRS regulations do >allow charitable tax deductions, there are some pretty >large caveats involved. Unless one is deducting a >combination of expenses, [mortgage interest, medical >expenses over 7.5% of adjusted gross income, etc., that >total over $4,700], one's mental state might be questioned >if s/he itemizes for a small amount (e.g., $500 for >charity) when the standard deduction is larger for single, >under 65 and non-blind individual(s). So, unless the US >auction winner is presumed to be itemizing, these >individuals could also possibly not be getting this >purported "benefit". Thanks. Obviously your rules regarding charitable donations are different to ours in Canada. I keep all the little receipts that I get each time I make a donation to a registered charity (most give out receipts if the donation is above some minimum, usually in the $20-25 range). On my tax return, I get to enter the total of all of these and I get some deduction from my payable income tax (complicated calculation). Christine --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Tue May 6 20:41:08 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 12:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] RE: Topless/Discreet Betans? In-Reply-To: <200305061101.h46B1Zr5003977@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Actually, I assumed from the descriptions of Betans wearing sarongs that men and women could and did go topless on a fairly regular basis. I know that a sarong can be wrapped around either the waist or under the arms, but to my mind it is most often around the waist, so I assumed that Betan men and women did not have a concern about the public display of male or female mammary glands. Do most people assume women on Beta wrap them around under the arms or around the waist? Susan in Seattle --------________--------________-------- From raja at fas.harvard.edu Tue May 6 20:46:58 2003 From: raja at fas.harvard.edu (Fatima Raja) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:46:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes In-Reply-To: <200305061101.h46B17r5003970@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Marna Nightingale wrote: > This is about the point in any thread about Islam where Fatima generally > shows up to fix my factual errors. Fatima? Where are you? We miss you... *Waves to everyone* Well, I'm certainly no expert on doctrine -- my experience of Islam is of growing up in a terribly liberal family in Pakistan. But here's my contribution to the universe's mad plunge to heat death. It's a largish contribution, to be sure, but there is an ObBujold if you look for it. I think I've completely mangled the citations for the following quote. I'm sorry. > Eric Oppen wrote: > > > Saudi men cover up almost as much as the women do; the difference is > > mostly in the cut of the clothes. > > Generally they do, yes. But they *need* not. The Saudi Embassy is around > here; I've seen 'em in shorts and tshirts. And Saudi women at college in the US dress as skimpily as anyone else. Whether they would dress the same way around male family members -- I certainly wouldn't wear shorts if my father was around, out of respect for his opinions not fear of his reaction, but that's patriarchy for you -- is a different question. Even in Iran, for all the laws about dress (which, make no mistake, I think are ghastly), people get around them by dressing exactly how they wish when not in public areas. > The basic, almost never ignored taboo for women is: elbows to collarbone > to ankles, plus hair. Clothes are not to be tight. Two things to consider. One, there are Muslim societies outside the Arab world, something which is forgotten far too often. (Which segues nicely into the ObBujold, my personal bete noir -- where are all the Barrayaran descendants of South Asian immigrants in the UK, or North Africans in France? Or, for that matter, Tatars? But I should unsegue). Second, clothing norms vary widely. In the place I know best, Pakistan, the amount of coverage really depends on age and social background, with the urban middle classes and the feudal rich being the most conservative, about their young women. In the rural areas, which is most of Pakistan, women dress as they need to -- in the Punjab, a dhoti skirt which can conveniently be hitched up to the thighs for exertion, long sleeved shirt, a chador which is basically a big sheet that may be draped over the head, or used to carry things, or as a weapon. I have been thwacked many times by irate old women. The urban upper classes dress as they want. In the bazaars one tends to at least nod to social norms -- at least half-sleeved shirts, full-length shalwars (traditional trousers), with necklines no lower than the collar bone. Also, a chador, which is just draped around the neck like a scarf, and is usually quite diaphanous. The two conservative groups, the urban middle class and the feudal wealthy are the ones most likely to be seen in a burqa, the black robes. Or its more extreme version, the shuttlecock burqa (technical term), which is what you saw in Afghanistan. Up in the northwestern border regions with Afghanistan the rules are also slightly stricter, but I suspect that once you get into the rural areas, restrictions are perforce relaxed. I invite anyone interested in slightly different Muslim societies to read the bit about the Algerian Tarqui people in Bouthaina Shaaban's _Both Right and Left Handed_. Ah, utopia. Reading further down the list, I see Paula Lieberman has mentioned a documentary about female infanticide in Pakistan. Paula, could you please give me some more information about it, off-list? I've some familiarity with the women's movement in Pakistan, but have never heard about that before. Abandonment of illegitimate babies, particularly girls, yes -- though one humanitarian organisation has made some inroads with its empty cradle initiative, where babies can be dropped off for adoption. My own first cousin was adopted from one of these cradles. Bride-burning, honour-killing, yes. Can't deny they exist. Women forbidden from attending school, marriage at the age of 14, the Zina laws under which a raped woman can be prosecuted for adultery, all yes. Someone mentioned divorce settlements. According to Pakistani law it must indeed be enshrined in the marriage contract, for a woman to get alimony. I'm not sure about retaining personal property, but I suspect that, given Islam's emphasis on private ownership (from the example of the Prophet's first wife, an independent businesswoman), property transferring to the husband must be an innovation. Now a little sermon, that repeats much of what has been said. Islam, like every other religion, is reinterpreted according to social and political forces. The current extremist Islam is as revolutionary as Knoxism in its day. To see how different religious interpretations can be, again I recommend the book I mentioned above. An example in the matter of dress: there is an increasing feeling among educated women of my acquaintance that 'modesty' simply means to dress so that you don't stand out. I.e. not wear a bikini to the mosque, nor wear a burqa to the beach. It's good manners, if nothing else. In an ideal world all dress would be a matter of personal choice, but it's a step towards a more open interpretation. There is no denying that the Quran gives women half the inheritance of men, and discounts their testimony. But if Islamic history has shown anything, it has shown that it is capable of being reinterpreted, when the impetus is there. A small example: the Muslim rulers of India declared the majority Hindu population 'people of the book', a status reserved for Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians, and many of them did not impose the jizya tax on the non-Muslim population. The first strenuous objections to this came from a new breed of purist Islamist reformers, who are the spiritual ancestors of extremist movements in Pakistan today. But change will come from within, as it came in the past. It's not helped by any number of internal and external pizza-worthy factors, but we're trying, you know. Give us time. We're still working through our own Thirty Years War. Fatima Raja --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Tue May 6 21:18:53 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 13:18:53 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Encouraging Bidding for Galleys.... Message-ID: Jagoda, Lynette K teased: Tue, 06 May 2003 10:18:03 -0700 >Rob just said: I *might* be played out. Its getting rich enough to >interfere with my Jaguar repair scheme. End Snip< >Come on Rob Keep in mind ... this isn't just a great Lois book you >are bidding on... the money goes to help SF writers in need and homeless >people. ;-) How much better can it get? You get a signed copy, months >early *and* get good "Karma, Mitzvah, etc." brownie points. < >You can buy Jaguar parts next month. < Come, come, Lynette. Surely you've heard of the "Save The Jaguar Fund!" Lorraine - whose husband Frank considered it *his* favorite charity when we had an elderly Jaguar... :) _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --------________--------________-------- From zafaran at sff.net Tue May 6 21:25:07 2003 From: zafaran at sff.net (Patricia A. Swan) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:25:07 -0400 Subject: [LMB] RE: Topless/Discreet Betans? In-Reply-To: References: <200305061101.h46B1Zr5003977@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030506161633.02f0e018@pop3.sff.net> At 12:41 PM 5/6/2003 -0700, Susan Profit wrote: >Actually, I assumed from the descriptions of Betans wearing sarongs >that men and women could and did go topless on a fairly regular basis. >I know that a sarong can be wrapped around either the waist or under >the arms, but to my mind it is most often around the waist, so I >assumed that Betan men and women did not have a concern about the >public display of male or female mammary glands. > >Do most people assume women on Beta wrap them around under the arms or >around the waist? > >Susan in Seattle A variation I've not seen in this whole discussion is the post-mastectomy women who have gotten tattoos over the surgical site and wear it exposed. Ones with a single breast remaining tend to go for a radical off-one-shoulder dress design that covers the remaining breast while exposing the tattoo in all it's multi-colored glory. Ones with full-chest tattoos where they've decorated over a double mastectomy tend to wear plunging necklines that show the tattoos in full detail. Pat in North Carolina -- * Patricia A. Swan <*> zafaran at dnet.net Ebay ID: zafaranswan * * Six Swans Design http://members.fortunecity.com/zafaran * --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Tue May 6 21:46:38 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 15:46:38 -0500 Subject: [LMB] RE: Topless/Discreet Betans? In-Reply-To: References: <200305061101.h46B1Zr5003977@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030506154519.02df80d0@mail.iqcisp.com> At 12:41 PM 5/6/2003 -0700, Susan Profit wrote: >Actually, I assumed from the descriptions of Betans wearing sarongs >that men and women could and did go topless on a fairly regular basis. >I know that a sarong can be wrapped around either the waist or under >the arms, but to my mind it is most often around the waist, so I >assumed that Betan men and women did not have a concern about the >public display of male or female mammary glands. > >Do most people assume women on Beta wrap them around under the arms or >around the waist? We don't have to assume, we've got textevd. ACC, chapter two. "I thought you would come home wearing one of those topless Betan sarongs," Martya teased her, as the groundcar pulled away from the shuttleport and headed toward town. "I thought about it." Kareen buried her grin in her armload of flowers. "It's just not warm enough here." "You didn't actually wear one _there,_ did you?" Fortunately, before Kareen was forced to either answer or evade this, Olivia piped up ... Louann, who loves e-books. --------________--------________-------- From megj at nwlink.com Tue May 6 21:52:26 2003 From: megj at nwlink.com (Meg Justus) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 13:52:26 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Topless/Discreet Betans? References: Message-ID: <01a701c31411$697041f0$02e84b43@meg> Susan in Seattle: > Do most people assume women on Beta wrap them around under the arms or > around the waist? There's also textev somewhere about the new fashion for the daring being just body paint, although darned if I can remember when. I guess if you have no weather to worry about most of the time... Megaera --------________--------________-------- From scott.r.padget at boeing.com Tue May 6 21:53:39 2003 From: scott.r.padget at boeing.com (Padget, Scott R) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:53:39 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion [OT:] Message-ID: Hopper: > I'm sure some European women would feel > sorry for me in my onepiece bathing suit on a topless beach in > France...and yet I don't feel like I'm not free... Little Alex: > Absolutely, but my stance is that one must first ask the question, "Will > one suffer legal and/or physical consequences -- i.e. going to jail, > getting beaten up -- for not following that particular custom?" Which, of course, is exactly what *does* happen in large swaths of NA for those who violate the dress code.[1][2] Which dress code could arguably be said to be the legal/cultural enforcement of what is fundamentally a religious stricture. And other than the argument that "my religion-based body-display taboo is better than your religion-based body-display taboo", is different from Islamic head coverings...um, how, exactly? [1] The example of legal consequences of women violating the dress code has already been made by the Hopper, at least for certain areas of the US. [2] Example of physical consequences and the male dress code[3]: in some areas of the US, it is decidedly unwise for a man to wear (for example) a pink shirt in public. Even worse if he's thin and has a manicure. Hospitalization, death, and/or gang rape have been known to result. [3] You *knew* I would gender-flip this at some point, right? Pilot Padget--guerilla genderflipper --------________--------________-------- From scott.r.padget at boeing.com Tue May 6 21:54:15 2003 From: scott.r.padget at boeing.com (Padget, Scott R) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:54:15 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom Message-ID: CatMtn, on women going topless: > I think it would be unrealistic for them to > expect to be treated the same way as a more discreet woman. To me, that's not the point. To me, the issue is that she *should* expect to be treated the same way a *man* would be. In a venue where it's acceptable for a man to bare his nipples, why shouldn't a woman be able to? In fact, as has been pointed out about breastfeeding, there are reasons why women might have a legitimate need to expose her breast in a venue where such behavior would be inappropriate in a man. Church, for instance--yes, I know many churches have special rooms for nursing mothers, but why should they be exiled if the kids aren't being disruptive? Or for that matter, we could reverse the argument: in many *very* formal/conservative venues, women are allowed, even *expected*, to show an amount of skin that would get a man thrown out. Which may give a woman every right to complain in New York in January, but given that I like to dress up and I'm in *Houston*, I think I have the right to whinge on this one. Ther eare of course many other ways in which I have...difficulties...with the sentiment that the generally-admirable Mary espoused above, but they've been dealt with by others, better than I could. Malfoy: > But then, men are not allowed to show their legs, and women are. > This sort of makes up for the fact that women are not allowed to > show their chests in American culture. There are VERY few places > where men can wear short pants. Well, maybe sorta. Though I feel obligated to point out that there are many socially-acceptable fashion options for women that reveal-while- covering their chests. Or torsos, at any rate. Bare midriff, backless, spaghetti straps, fabrics clingy and sheer enough to outline the *areaolae* (sp), let alone nipples, while providing substantially less support than a sports bra (jiggle), are common. Granted, one garment that included *all* these design features would probably be considered less than socially acceptable, but I'm sure you see the possibilities. A man, OTOH, really can't wear leg coverings that reveal-while-covering in a similar fashion. In fact, if a man is wearing legwear that allows a casual viewer to see that he's an *amputee*, it's pretty much a sure bet that he's wearing extremely casual wear. Which might be fine for some folks, I suppose, but I flatter myself that I've got pretty good legs, while my chest is nothing to write home about. But I haven't been able to show them off at any kind of upscale event since, oh, 1820 or thereabouts. In fact, about the only physical features (other than the head) that non-casual men's clothing allows one to expose are height and shoulder width. Both of I personally am, well, less-than-gifted with. And I'm selfish enough to object to this state of sartorial affairs. :-) Marna: > For that > matter, men never get arrested for peeing in public, as far as I can > tell. Speaking of flashing. *Sure* they do. Though it may depend on the jurisdiction. It's one of the primary methods of getting oneself arrested on Bourbon Street in N'Awlins, that canonical US symbol of lascivious decadence. And one of my old fencing buddies was arrested in West Texas for it. Despite having gone to the trouble of finding a (potentially dangerous) alley and engaging in his business at some risk to himself in order to ensure privacy and lack of offense. Just his bad luck that a cop noticed a young-adult male, apparently inebriated, enter the alley and tailed him. Then there's the infamous case of Rome, which in the 1980's cracked down on the backpack-and-youth-hostel crowd (tourists who were crowding the Big Attractions but spending very little money, and blamed rightly or wrongly for an upswing in property crime) by making public urination illegal. There were 2 public toilets in all of Rome at the time, peeing in the streets was culturally accepted for both genders, and the authorities were, um, *highly* selective in enforcement, based entirely on how well the offender met the culturally-prescribed dress code. Which brings us right back to the "freedom of dress" issue. Pilot Padget--who actually considers public urination in urban areas a health, not freedom, issue --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 21:56:41 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:56:41 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom and toplessness In-Reply-To: <00eb01c31353$04410850$d18dd70c@MainComputer> Message-ID: <20030506205641.61092.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> --- Countryboy a icrit : > I had to explain to my 4 girls (10, 9, 9, and 7) (yes, twins), why boys are > allowed to run around without a shirt and girls aren't. To be honest, the > only answer I had was that it was against the law. Actually, I recall my mom letting me go topless a few times when I was little, esp when we were out with her friend whose son was just my age. "Mommy, how come _he_ gets to...?!" We didn't get arrested, but I do wonder, given today's climate, what would have happened if she'd tried now. Joy L. ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 21:57:37 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:57:37 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030506205737.65531.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Hurt a icrit : > I don't know. I somehow have a problem with putting the right to go > topless in the same category as, for example, the right of free speech, or > the right for a trial by jury. I think the ACLU, et al, often lumps things in with the First Amendment bc there just isn't anything else to cover things like this. And there should be. Joy L. ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 21:59:30 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:59:30 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom and toplessness In-Reply-To: <142.10cb85b0.2be867f4@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030506205930.65871.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> --- CatMtn at aol.com a icrit : > In a message dated 5/5/2003 7:05:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > > > Joy L, who would _love_ to be able to go topless in public...the sports bra > > > is > > the best invention in the world. > > > > That's great, but it would be painful for those of us who wear the larger > sizes! Just imagining driving down a bumpy road hurts! > Mary Actually, I was thinking more about swimming. It's quite comfy for larger sizes to float in the water. Joy L., who did this in France ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Tue May 6 22:01:26 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 23:01:26 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Grad School In-Reply-To: <12a.293d9242.2be86915@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030506210126.23489.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> --- CatMtn at aol.com a icrit : > In a message dated 5/5/2003 7:05:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Oh, yeah. And to discover that I actually had to _study_ was probably the > biggest shock of all. Then in History of Biology classes I learned that what > > is currently accepted as truth is more like the theory du jour. So many of > these lovely theories are just so much phlogiston. Psychology class was the first place I ran into that problem in college. Here I would be, industriously taking notes on Behaviorism, only to find out it _wasn't true_! How could this rotten class waste my time on teaching me something that wasn't the One True Thing?? And _then_, I had to go take notes on Freudianism, which turned out not to be the One True Thing either (thank god)! Oh, I was so frustrated! :-) Joy L. ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Tue May 6 22:06:04 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:06:04 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion OT: References: Message-ID: <3EB823AF.FE81CA74@redmaplegrove.org> Michael R N Dolbear wrote: > > > From: Marna Nightingale ] > > They also had to be supported until remarriage if divorced, and while > > If you mean supported by the ex-husband, have you a cite showing the source > of such a rule ? It's in the haidth, the sayings of the prophet. Don't recall exactly where at the moment, might get a chance to track it down later. M. --------________--------________-------- From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Tue May 6 22:10:35 2003 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:10:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 2003, Padget, Scott R wrote: > Well, maybe sorta. Though I feel obligated to point out that there are > many socially-acceptable fashion options for women that reveal-while- > covering their chests. Or torsos, at any rate. Bare midriff, backless, > spaghetti straps, fabrics clingy and sheer enough to outline the > *areaolae* (sp), let alone nipples, while providing substantially less > support than a sports bra (jiggle), are common. Granted, one garment > that included *all* these design features would probably be considered > less than socially acceptable, but I'm sure you see the possibilities. Have you ever been in Montreal in July? Very fashionable, in good taste, but revealing. Also appropriate given how hot AND humid it is about then. > A man, OTOH, really can't wear leg coverings that reveal-while-covering > in a similar fashion. In fact, if a man is wearing legwear that allows a > casual viewer to see that he's an *amputee*, it's pretty much a sure > bet that he's wearing extremely casual wear. In high-tech workplaces here, it's perfectly appropriate for men to wear shorts in summer to work. Normally they're baggy. And I seem to remember the British Raj/Caribbean style of dress consisting of Bermuda shorts and kneesocks. -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire --------________--------________-------- From Robert at WarnickeLittler.com Tue May 6 22:14:00 2003 From: Robert at WarnickeLittler.com (Robert Warnicke) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 14:14:00 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Encouraging Bidding for Galleys.... In-Reply-To: <200305062051.h46Kp9r5006203@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <001001c31414$6a975570$6e01a8c0@D6FL1B21> First Lynette attempted to entice me back into the bidding by saying: > Come on Rob Keep in mind ... this isn't just a great Lois book you > are bidding on... the money goes to help SF > writers in need and homeless people. ;-) How much better can it get? > You get a signed copy, months early *and* get good "Karma, Mitzvah, etc." > brownie points. And then she tried to justify her own failure to participate: portion of her non specifically committed yearly charity budget at the > "Humane Society Auction" back in Feb. ;-) And my wife already had me drop a close to $300 *two weeks ago* for Liberty Wildlife and I didn't even get a single book out of it (or Jaguar parts for that matter)... I'm thinking its your turn again. :) Now if LMB would throw in a Powerlok 3.56 rearend or Tremec TKO tranny... sigh -------- Robert W --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Tue May 6 22:14:54 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:14:54 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tax Deductibility of PoS Galleys (Was:Encouraging Bidding for Galleys....) References: <261v2560yucd58l.060520031524@forber.net> Message-ID: <3EB825C1.28DBC1F9@redmaplegrove.org> Christine Forber wrote: > Thanks. Obviously your rules regarding charitable donations are different to > ours in Canada. Oh, Yeah. I'm told that the John Ford Fund is not deductible, so my current plan, since I get no deduction regardless, is to go with that one. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Tue May 6 22:14:57 2003 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:14:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion [OT:] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 2003, Padget, Scott R wrote: > Which, of course, is exactly what *does* happen in large swaths of NA > for those who violate the dress code.[1][2] Which dress code could arguably > be said to be the legal/cultural enforcement of what is fundamentally a > religious stricture. The case that comes immediately to mind is the Unix guru who wore a Tshirt featuring the Berkely Unix (BSD) daemon into a small town in Texas, and was strongly urged to leave immediately. I have a copy of that shirt myself, but tend to be selective where I wear it for fear of misinterpretation. -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire --------________--------________-------- From scott.r.padget at boeing.com Tue May 6 22:15:04 2003 From: scott.r.padget at boeing.com (Padget, Scott R) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:15:04 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Religions Message-ID: Marna asks: > Alternately, can we plausibly reinterpret any piece of scripture to > prescribe infanticide in cases of deformity? "If thine eye offends thee, pluck it out" comes to mind. I'm sure there are others. It certainly requires less misinterpretation to apply this to infanticide of the deformed than a lot of other scriptural justifications I've seen. > Also, was there ever sex-selection through infanticide? We have the > textev that Barrayarans are all about sex-selection, given an easy way > to do it. My understanding is that the ancient Greeks (i.e., *some* of the cultural subgroups at *some* time in the period of Greek ascendency) practiced infanticide by exposure to get rid of unwanted girls in favor of sons. The context was by way of noting that classical authors believed women to be fragile and sickly things (by virtue of their relative scarcity) while the medievals believed exactly the opposite (based on the exact opposite observation). Source: a medieval history college class, 1982 or thereabouts, taught by a female prof (uhhh...something Bynum? Catherine Bynum, perhaps? Teaching at that time at the University of Washington, at any rate.) who in the time I knew her collected more than one national-level award. though I don't recall in which of several classes I took from her, all her classes had a moderate to high level of gender awareness. (Witchcraft in the Middle Ages, Daily Life in the Middle Ages, and Women in the Middle Ages were some of her classes--and this factoid could have popped up in any of them.) Wow. *I'm* answering a social science question posed by *Marna*?? Pilot Padget--easily amused --------________--------________-------- From scott.r.padget at boeing.com Tue May 6 22:21:30 2003 From: scott.r.padget at boeing.com (Padget, Scott R) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:21:30 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT-ish: Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes Message-ID: Marna provided specific nudity taboos for men in various Islamic subgroups. But she forgot the Tuareg--the desert nomads of the Sahara, with a lifestyle vaguely analogous to the Bedouin of the Arabian peninsula but a *vastly* different culture. Culturally-ordained male dress: Head to toe loose flowing coverage with nothing but eyes exposed. Veils up to 20 feet long with a wide assortment of personal and tribal variations in wrapping them around the head and neck. In terms of coverage it can give a chador a run for its money. It's a WAY cool and dramatic look which I adopted for SCA garb on more than one occasion. But but it's pretty opressive as a *requirement*. They're (or possibly *were*) polyandrous, too, IIRC. Which you know just *has* to increase their "cool factor". Pilot Padget--long-ago Tuareg fan --------________--------________-------- From Robert at WarnickeLittler.com Tue May 6 22:23:36 2003 From: Robert at WarnickeLittler.com (Robert Warnicke) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 14:23:36 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Encouraging Bidding for Galleys.... In-Reply-To: <200305062051.h46Kp9r5006203@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <001101c31415$c1e9f570$6e01a8c0@D6FL1B21> Susan the Neon Nurse > Oh, we're onto his game, Lynette! He's just trying to psych us > out! Ha! Thinks he's dealing with AMATEURS or something!! Don't worry, I feel no need to psych out you and Robert, seems to me you and he have been counting your copies since this possibility was announced, regardless of how high the bidding actually goes. In fact, you better be sure to make a last minute higher bid just to make sure *somebody* doesn't out bid you in the final minutes... You will, of course, probably have to make that last bid blind as to the actual amounts... :) If you end up with two, well, maybe Robert will buy one. :o -------- Robert W --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Tue May 6 22:21:55 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:21:55 -0500 Subject: [LMB] RE: Topless/Discreet Betans? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030506161633.02f0e018@pop3.sff.net> References: <200305061101.h46B1Zr5003977@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030506162027.02dfa930@mail.iqcisp.com> At 04:25 PM 5/6/2003 -0400, Patricia A. Swan wrote: >A variation I've not seen in this whole discussion is the >post-mastectomy women who have gotten tattoos over the surgical site >and wear it exposed. Ones with a single breast remaining tend to go >for a radical off-one-shoulder dress design that covers the remaining >breast while exposing the tattoo in all it's multi-colored glory. Ones >with full-chest tattoos where they've decorated over a double >mastectomy tend to wear plunging necklines that show the tattoos in >full detail. Normally I find that level of exposure tacky. For battle scars like that, I'll make an exception. ObBujold: Ekaterin getting "I survived, ask me how" vibes from her first sight of Miles' bare torso. Louann --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Tue May 6 22:29:31 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:29:31 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom References: Message-ID: <3EB8292D.815A8528@redmaplegrove.org> "Padget, Scott R" complains that: > I haven't been able to show [his legs] off at any kind of upscale event since, > oh, 1820 or thereabouts. Don't he look splendid for the age of him? Marna, beating James to it and beating a retreat. --------________--------________-------- From oppen at mycns.net Tue May 6 22:40:31 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:40:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Clothing customs (on-topic) Message-ID: <009001c31418$1f439800$964a0043@hppav> Personally, I have never seen the need to make a wild noisy fuss about clothing taboos, whether here or elsewhere. It so happens that I'm not usually wildly inconvenienced (although I would have _thought_ that Men's Wearhouse, a nation-wide chain, would be able to correctly measure me for a jacket for my tux for my brother's wedding in California---but that's another rant) and I seldom if ever find my clothes getting in the way of what I have to do. One thing that rather irritated me about the invaluable _People's Guide to Mexico_ (now OOP, alas, at least as far as I know---my best girlfriend in college, a French/Spanish double major quite familiar with Mexico, said it was the best d*mn guide to actually _getting along_ in Mexico) was the amount of attention given to surviving Mexico with a beard and long hair. It so happens that Mexicans, at least outside of major tourist places like Acapulco and Cancun, and major cities like Mexico City, tended at the time of writing to be _very_ conservative (they made 1950s US small towns look like Haight-Ashbury, or so I am told) and extremely suspicious of "jipis." Frankly, rather than go to all the bl**dy subterfudges they described to get tourist cards from hippie-phobic Mexican officials, and put up with the hassle and extra attention, I'd shave and cut my hair. _It isn't that important to me._ I'd rather just experience Mexico without the hassles and fuss with the cops and suspicious local people. When we were reading _Cetaganda,_ we saw that the Barrayaran Ambassador (poor wretch!) wore Cetagandan-style robes when out in public. I would do the same, were I the ambassador from, say, Jackson's Whole, _because it is their planet and I wish to show politeness by following their customs._ On Barrayar, OTOH, I would probably either wear formal Barrayaran civilian-style clothes, or (if I were entitled to one) the most ornate uniform I could justify. Saudis in the US often quite like following our ways while they're here---kind of like American girls getting a bit of a thrill out of sunbathing topless in the South of France. One reason they cover up so completely at home is because the Saudi climate is h*ll on skin---and, albeit I am no expert on women, I have kind of noticed that they object to their delicate skins being turned into something like the back of an old farmer's neck. Even if they all became Beta Colony-style free-livers, I daresay they'd _still_ cover up pretty completely, at least in public. A lot of it has to do with status symbols---seclusion for women is a symbol of leisure status, kind of like the elaborate gowns Victorian women wore if they could afford them. And until the Saudis themselves get tired of it, I have other things to do than worry about it. --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Tue May 6 22:37:09 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:37:09 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EB7E4B5.23580.2B7B0DC@localhost> Alayne McGregor wrote: > In high-tech workplaces here, it's perfectly appropriate for men to > wear shorts in summer to work. Normally they're baggy. For that matter, in the mid-'80s I taught for a year at the University of Arizona. My first day on campus I had an interview with the chairman of the department; he was wearing Bermudas and, I think, a T-shirt. (Of course, classes hadn't started yet...) Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Tue May 6 22:41:44 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:41:44 -0500 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update In-Reply-To: <3EB75E73.9040408@lvhot.org> References: <001e01c31359$8072cc50$6e01a8c0@D6FL1B21> <3EB75E73.9040408@lvhot.org> Message-ID: <20030506214144.GF8728@fireopal.org> On Tue, May 06, 2003 at 12:04:19AM -0700, Robert Parks wrote: > I'll admit that expensive is approaching, but, er, Expensive > is still a ways off. Next update coming shortly - expensive looks rather closer! (According to Betsy, we have to blame her husband.) -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Tue May 6 22:45:03 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 14:45:03 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <20030506205737.65531.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00aa01c31418$c0e1cce0$31432904@earthlink.net> > --- Brian Hurt > I somehow have a problem with putting the right to go > > topless in the same category as, for example, the right of > free speech, or the right for a trial by jury. > > I think the ACLU, et al, often lumps things in with the First > Amendment bc there just isn't anything else to cover things > like this. And there should be. > > Joy L. I think they ought to try going with Amendment IX "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Tue May 6 22:45:31 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:45:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion and tornadoes OT: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030506214531.GG8728@fireopal.org> On Tue, May 06, 2003 at 08:56:50AM -0500, Tom Vinson wrote: > Tornado: > The real weather passed north of Tulsa--we didn't even get any rain. > Pierce City, almost wiped out, is in southwest Missouri, a bit east > of Joplin. Crawford County in southeast Kansas had extensive property > damage. Victoria L'Ecuyer is in Manhattan, Kansas. I don't know of > any listees in KS/MO/OK closer than that. Well, my father is about 20-30 miles (IIRC) from Pierce City (just outside of Neosho). He reports that the serious weather all went south or north of him - he just got plain rain. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Tue May 6 22:50:42 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:50:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/6 @ 4:50PM CDT Message-ID: <20030506215042.GH8728@fireopal.org> See the current info web page at - it also has the list of who's asked to be included in the read, sign & pass along copy - http://www.fireopal.org/~sraun/lmb_pos_auction.html The current high bids are: bhosler at partners.org $650 5/6, 12:35PM ndrosen at erols.com $300 5/5, 9:35AM carosue at centurytel.net $250 5/5, 1:27AM There are currently forty-four people signed up for the read, sign & pass-along copy. I'm still planning on getting out another update late this evening. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 6 22:53:20 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:53:20 -0400 Subject: [LMB] freedom References: Message-ID: <05ef01c31419$e95dea90$630d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Padget, Scott R" [snippage] > Malfoy: > > But then, men are not allowed to show their legs, and women are. > > This sort of makes up for the fact that women are not allowed to > > show their chests in American culture. There are VERY few places > > where men can wear short pants. > > Well, maybe sorta. Though I feel obligated to point out that there are > many socially-acceptable fashion options for women that reveal-while- > covering their chests. Or torsos, at any rate. Bare midriff, That VERY much depends. It's pushed enormously by the [expletive deleted] entertainment and fashion industries, but is mostly considered Unacceptable Socially in most venues, however, the more bare midriff appears, and the less of NON-bare midriff fashions there are in store, the more resignatedly accepted it becomes. > backless, spaghetti straps, fabrics clingy and sheer enough to outline the > *areaolae* (sp), let alone nipples, while providing substantially less > support than a sports bra (jiggle), are common. Granted, one garment I have seen -male- fashions of see-through shirts, shirts with cutouts and cutaways, and in workplaces (jeans or even shorts and t-shirt acceptable places) coworkers with hole-laden jeans... > that included *all* these design features would probably be considered > less than socially acceptable, but I'm sure you see the possibilities. > > A man, OTOH, really can't wear leg coverings that reveal-while-covering > in a similar fashion. In fact, if a man is wearing legwear that allows a Haven't worked where I have, then! Various of my coworkers had their legs bare from above their knees down to their feet, and some had thigh and upper leg showing from holes in their jeans (software engineers), > casual viewer to see that he's an *amputee*, it's pretty much a sure > bet that he's wearing extremely casual wear. > > Which might be fine for some folks, I suppose, but I flatter myself that > I've got pretty good legs, while my chest is nothing to write home about. > But I haven't been able to show them off at any kind of upscale event since, > oh, 1820 or thereabouts. Sheer shirt and a [non-sheer] jacket, I've seen that combination. Hmm, some of the formal outfits for males described Laurell K. Hamilton's books are peek-a-boo clothing, some are sheer, some are both.... > In fact, about the only physical features (other than the head) that non-casual > men's clothing allows one to expose are height and shoulder width. Both of Again, I've seen formal sheer shirts on men. > I personally am, well, less-than-gifted with. And I'm selfish enough to object > to this state of sartorial affairs. :-) [tossing Pilot a set of barbells.... Not much can be done about the height, but then, I strongly suspect you're taller than I am, most people are.... ] And then the images started to hit me, of what is Bel had gone all out dressing up for trying to seduce Miles.... and that inspires (?) a whole thought chain of "what would be seductive clothing to different cultures of the Nexus? Barrayar -- imitation military uniform, altered in Interesting Ways. Beta -- hmmm, not real sure there. Tight clothing in all sorts of oddball places for herms out on display to intrigue offworlders when offworld? --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 6 22:56:41 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:56:41 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion [OT:] References: Message-ID: <05f801c3141a$61818810$630d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Padget, Scott R" > [2] Example of physical consequences and the male dress code[3]: in some areas > of the US, it is decidedly unwise for a man to wear (for example) a pink shirt in > public. Even worse if he's thin and has a manicure. Hospitalization, death, > and/or gang rape have been known to result. Aren't your forgetting about old-line IBMers there?! While the ones I've seen at trade shows in recent years have included a trade show uniform that in one case was lavender and white -- I don't remember which was the shirt color and which was the pants color, once upon at time Big Blue employeers out in public, wore blue suits with pink shirts. --------________--------________-------- From bhurt at spnz.org Tue May 6 23:12:22 2003 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:12:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] Clothing customs (on-topic) In-Reply-To: <009001c31418$1f439800$964a0043@hppav> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 2003, Eric Oppen wrote: > When we were reading _Cetaganda,_ we saw that the Barrayaran Ambassador > (poor wretch!) wore Cetagandan-style robes when out in public. I would do > the same, were I the ambassador from, say, Jackson's Whole, _because it is > their planet and I wish to show politeness by following their customs._ On > Barrayar, OTOH, I would probably either wear formal Barrayaran > civilian-style clothes, or (if I were entitled to one) the most ornate > uniform I could justify. There are, as I understand it, two schools of thought about this. The first is that wearing proper (conservative) native garb makes it easier to move among the natives with fewer problems. It also helps with the salesmen side of things- the people you are meeting with *subconciously* respond to you better if you "look like good people" (i.e. follow the local dress code). This is why TJ Watson Sr. required blue suits with white shirts and red ties. He had previously worked at NCR whose salesmen were allowed to dress like, well, sysadmins. By requiring IBM salespeople (and by extension, everyone) to conform to corporate dress codes, he put the executives at ease and helped make the sale. The other school of thought is that the diplomat is there to represent his goverment, he is not part of the local culture, and should not subordinate himself to the locals in *any* way. The idea here is that if you take your dress queues from the locals, you might take other queues. The second school of thought tends to be, umm, more aggressive in it's international diplomacy. I could easily see Gregor being subtle enough to want a salesman, not just a represenitive, especially for the critical Cetagandan post. If the Cetagandans need to be confronted, the Imperial Navy can do the confronting. The diplomatic staff is probably focused on making sure the confronting isn't necessary. And I don't think the average, run-of-the-mill Cetagandan would take well to an upstart Barrayaran "taking on airs" as it were. Brian --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Tue May 6 23:02:33 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030506145547.I28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Tue, 6 May 2003, Padget, Scott R wrote: > Church, for instance--yes, I know many churches have special > rooms for nursing mothers, but why should they be exiled if the > kids aren't being disruptive? Isn't it a rather intimate act? I don't mean intimate in the sexual sense, not at all, but...I have the impression that it's not quite the same as sticking a bottle in a kid's mouth. Do tell me if I'm wrong. I hadn't planned to breastfeed (if my daughter had lived) for a variety of health reasons (and I do NOT want to hear about why I 'should' or how I 'could' since I'm sterile now), but I thought about it and I don't think I could have done it in front of people I didn't know. I'm also one of those people that won't hug you unless she knows you. > Or for that matter, we could reverse the argument: in many > *very* formal/conservative venues, women are allowed, even > *expected*, to show an amount of skin that would get a man > thrown out. Which may give a woman every right to complain in > New York in January, but given that I like to dress up and I'm > in *Houston*, I think I have the right to whinge on this one. Yes, and if you can show skin elegantly I will back you up to the wall on it. I just don't want you coming to my most formal party wearing something that looks like it belongs on a tennis court or at the beach. If you are beautiful and glittery and silky...(as I know you can be) go for it. > Marna: > > > For that matter, men never get arrested for peeing in public, > > as far as I can tell. Speaking of flashing. > > *Sure* they do. Though it may depend on the jurisdiction. It's one of the > primary methods of getting oneself arrested on Bourbon Street in N'Awlins, > that canonical US symbol of lascivious decadence. Yes, but in cities with 'liberal' governments they don't. I am tired of the BS line of logic that equates enforcing public urination laws with 'oppressing the homeless' (who can do no wrong in San Francisco where I live). Especially when I know it's mostly the drunk yuppies who slum in our neighborhood that are doing it, not the homeless guys that have to live here too. > Pilot Padget--who actually considers public urination in urban > areas a health, not freedom, issue I agree! ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Tue May 6 23:06:18 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:06:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Clothing customs (OT:) In-Reply-To: <009001c31418$1f439800$964a0043@hppav> Message-ID: <20030506150336.L28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Tue, 6 May 2003, Eric Oppen wrote: > Frankly, rather than go to all the bl**dy subterfudges they described to get > tourist cards from hippie-phobic Mexican officials, and put up with the > hassle and extra attention, I'd shave and cut my hair. _It isn't that > important to me._ I'd rather just experience Mexico without the hassles and > fuss with the cops and suspicious local people. Yes, Eric, but not everyone feels that way, and having the info did you no harm. I'm lucky I'm female, because given a choice between a haircut and a beating, I'd really have to think hard about it. In the end I might take the haircut cause the hair would grow back but...it would really be very difficult for me, it's giving me knots in my stomach just thinking about it. ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Tue May 6 23:20:07 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 18:20:07 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Clothing customs (OT:) References: <20030506150336.L28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <3EB83509.31383088@redmaplegrove.org> Azalais Malfoy wrote: > > In the end I might take the haircut cause the hair > would grow back but...it would really be very difficult for me, > it's giving me knots in my stomach just thinking about it. Shaving a woman's head or cutting her hair off short has a lot of very deep and interesting connotations in Western culture. When she chooses to do it, it's seen as liberating. When it's used to mark a change in status, it's usually a renunciation. Nuns used to be shaved or given crew cuts. Some Ultra-Orthodox women have their hair cropped on marriage. And when it's against her will, it's about as shameful as it gets. Collaborators got shaved. Adulteresses did sometimes. Not surprised there's a lot of resonance there. When I had long hair, I was stressed every time I had to trust someone to give me a trim. When I decided to cut it off myself, I was amazed at how little regret I felt. I should fill this train of thought out more, sometime. M. --------________--------________-------- From bhurt at spnz.org Tue May 6 23:38:09 2003 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:38:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <3EB7E4B5.23580.2B7B0DC@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 2003 jparish at siue.edu wrote: > Alayne McGregor wrote: > > In high-tech workplaces here, it's perfectly appropriate for men to > > wear shorts in summer to work. Normally they're baggy. > > For that matter, in the mid-'80s I taught for a year at the University of > Arizona. My first day on campus I had an interview with the chairman of > the department; he was wearing Bermudas and, I think, a T-shirt. (Of > course, classes hadn't started yet...) > Interview*ers* can wear whatever the heck they want- they already have a job. Interview*ees* had better damned well wear appropriate garb according to local customs. Brian --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Tue May 6 23:32:55 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:32:55 -0700 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/6 @ 4:50PM CDT In-Reply-To: <20030506215042.GH8728@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <00cf01c3141f$706f7440$31432904@earthlink.net> > The current high bids are: > > bhosler at partners.org $650 5/6, 12:35PM > ndrosen at erols.com $300 5/5, 9:35AM > carosue at centurytel.net $250 5/5, 1:27AM There's a "shut up!" bid indeed! Wow. Laura --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Tue May 6 23:32:55 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:32:55 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <20030506145547.I28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <00d001c3141f$71068420$31432904@earthlink.net> > > Church, for instance--yes, I know many churches have special > > rooms for nursing mothers, but why should they be exiled if the > > kids aren't being disruptive? > > Isn't it a rather intimate act? I don't mean intimate in the > sexual sense, not at all, but...I have the impression that it's > not quite the same as sticking a bottle in a kid's mouth. Do > tell me if I'm wrong. >[snip] but I thought about it and I don't think I could have done > it in front of people I didn't know. In my experience (clearly YMMV) it's one of those things that changes once you experience it. I remember thinking I'd be too shy to do it in public. Once I got used to it, I had no problem doing so. (Although interestingly enough, having stopped nursing Brendan years ago, once Maggie was born I felt briefly shy about it again.) I do work at being in clothes that I can nurse easily and comfortably in, which generally means discreet comes along with it. And I find it MUCH easier - and also more discreet as another side benefit - to have the nursing pillow. It's harder in public without that. Then again, I've seen people worry that they couldn't handle diapers, or kids throwing up, etc, - but generally, I think, once you have to, you do fine. There's a quote from somewhere, I don't recall where, about how societies should not raise young girls to be squeamish, as "women's work" requires a strong stomach. I'd say parenting work in general, as my husband gets stuck with all that kind of work in parenting, too. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From litalex at slashyalex.com Tue May 6 23:33:41 2003 From: litalex at slashyalex.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 15:33:41 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom (and clothes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030506152412.01d89d10@slashyalex.com> Hello, At 14:47 05/05/2003, lorraine fletez-brant wrote: >I see your point, but my example still stands. Oh, of course. >I guarantee you if I trot outside starkers right now, someone wearing some >sort of official-looking raiment is going to help me become a guest of >Sheriff Joe Arpaio's spacious and comfortable accommodations. I probably >won't be beaten, but I'll certainly be jailed. No, the so-called free West isn't that much more free than the so called oppressed Islamic countries. >So - TOTALLY free? No. We dress according to our own definitions of taste >and custom. (btw, this is NOT a defense of caning women One might even go as far as saying that wearing Western clothes is a sign of being oppressed, since it's a symptom of colonialism and imperialism. ;-) At 15:53 05/05/2003, lorraine fletez-brant wrote: >without a full bathing suit. And an Islamic woman who wears hijab (the >head scarf) is not oppressed because she covers her hair according to her >traditions. THAT was the topic, not freedom of speech. Not (necessarily) oppressed, you mean... ;-) Yes, me like arguing semantics. little Alex --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Tue May 6 23:52:36 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:52:36 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Religions In-Reply-To: <048a01c313f2$6b7d4110$630d4b43@LAPTOP> References: <20030506001133.I33412-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <3EB7657B.BEE027FF@redmaplegrove.org> <048a01c313f2$6b7d4110$630d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <20030506225236.GC7666@fireopal.org> On Tue, May 06, 2003 at 01:10:39PM -0400, Paula Lieberman wrote: > Massive sex selection occurred following the advent of uterine > replicators on Barrayar, however, they weren't available before then Yes, but... Mirror Dance, Chapter 17, Kareen talking to Mark : "Lady Cordelia encouraged them, after the second of us girls came : along. There was a period soon after she immigrated here, when : galactic medicine was really spreading out, and there was this pill : you could take to choose the sex of your child. {paragraph continues} So, yes, technically massive sex selection and uterine replicators showed up at the same time - but they were NOT cause and effect! -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From tks1 at acpub.duke.edu Tue May 6 23:58:45 2003 From: tks1 at acpub.duke.edu (Tora K. Smulders-Srinivasan) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 18:58:45 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <3EB7E4B5.23580.2B7B0DC@localhost> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030506184532.032d6ea8@mail-tk.acpub.duke.edu> At 05:37 PM 5/6/2003, jparish at siue.edu wrote: For that matter, in the mid-'80s I taught for a year at the University of Arizona. My first day on campus I had an interview with the chairman of the department; he was wearing Bermudas and, I think, a T-shirt. (Of course, classes hadn't started yet...) Jim Parish I think university campuses might just have to be excepted overall for eccentric clothing styles! In my experience, people dress as they please in general on campus. As far as I can tell for shorts in particular on adult males, the only times we actually noticed if our male professors were wearing shorts while teaching was when it was either in really bad taste or in really good taste. :) For a recent example, my husband started his new position as a lecturer (USA equivalent assistant professor) at the University of Newcastle in England last August. This is his first "real" job. I've been joking him over the phone about how he has to start dressing more like an adult -- being a prof and all, and how he shouldn't be wearing shorts, etc. As I haven't finished my PhD yet, I'm still at Duke (Durham, NC, USA). Not being there, I have no idea how he or others are dressing. So he points out that the head of school (USA equivalent dean of school/university or something like that) walks around in shorts all the time. And HE's clearly an adult male of higher rank at the same institution. Oh well. At least my husband does dress up well when necessary and appropriate!! :) -Tora --------________--------________-------- From christine at forber.net Wed May 7 00:05:38 2003 From: christine at forber.net (Christine Forber) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 19:05:38 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: POS Galley Auction Update In-Reply-To: References: <200305052303.h45N3Ar5000968@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: At 01:48 PM 5/6/2003 -0400, Betsy Hosler wrote: > >I suspect the auction has gone beyond Lois' expectations, if not wildest >dreams... We goofed. We should have asked Lois for her estimate of what she thought the max bid would turn out to be!!! Wildest dreams, no kidding! Christine --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 7 00:02:16 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 19:02:16 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Mutations Message-ID: <157.1f03bfe8.2be998f8@aol.com> In a message dated 5/6/2003 1:14:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > article of faith, not open to discussion or reasoning. I don't remember > the details, but I'm not sure any of Ma Matutlich's "mutant babies" was > particularly badly malformed (sorry, I'll have to go back and re-read > the story) - webbed fingers was one, IIRC, and failure to thrive, maybe > another.) Didn't she have one with hydrocephalus ("the big head")? And two others that were born dead, I think. Also, couldn't some of those "mutations" such as spina bifida, harelip, etc., be a result of maternal malnutrition and trying to get accustomed to a new environment? Mary --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Wed May 7 00:04:51 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 19:04:51 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom References: <20030506145547.I28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <3EB83F83.ACEB4EAE@redmaplegrove.org> Azalais Malfoy wrote: > Isn't it a rather intimate act? I don't mean intimate in the > sexual sense, not at all, but...I have the impression that it's > not quite the same as sticking a bottle in a kid's mouth. Do > tell me if I'm wrong. AFAICT, neither wrong nor right. I know women who were completely unfazed, and women who considered it as private as you do. And it didn't seem to map to any other attitudes about modesty that I could detect. Some of the unfazed ones are women of otherwise almost puritanical modesty, some of the very fazed make me and thee look prim, and so forth. I know a woman from the local play-party scene who not only would not nurse in public, but she would pack up and go home to do it. Basically I think, if you're not comfy, your letdown goes to heck, so you do what's comfy. > > Marna: > > > For that matter, men never get arrested for peeing in public, > > > as far as I can tell. Speaking of flashing. Pilot: > > *Sure* they do. Though it may depend on the jurisdiction. Twin: > Yes, but in cities with 'liberal' governments they don't. > > Pilot Padget--who actually considers public urination in urban > > areas a health, not freedom, issue (Azalais agrees) Well, urine is sterile, basically. I just hate the fact that it makes the area *stink*. I didn't grow up entirely in urban areas, though. If it's not on a building or on pavement, or in a tiny little parkette, all places where it WILL create stink, I can't say as it fazes me much. There is, depending on how you look at it, nowhere to pee on HWY 7 between Ottawa and the north end of Toronto after midnight, or lots of places to pee. So I guess you could say i consider it a "basic common sense and courtesy" issue. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Wed May 7 00:06:36 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:06:36 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion OT: Message-ID: From: "Michael R N Dolbear" Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 13:49:57 +0100 >From: lorraine fletez-brant >Date: 05 May 2003 22:47 > [...] >>I see your point, but my example still stands.<< > >>I guarantee you if I trot outside starkers right now, someone wearing some >sort of official-looking raiment is going to help me become a guest of >Sheriff Joe Arpaio's spacious and comfortable accommodations. I probably >won't be beaten, but I'll certainly be jailed.<< >But that's not a universal, even for all common law countries, any more than adultery being criminal is. In England the offense, IIRC, only applies to men and to prosecute a female you would have to try to prove something like "insulting behavior".< I didn't mean to imply that it was universal. It is certainly true in Arizona if you are in a public place. But for England, are you saying that a woman could appear in public naked and she would not be arrested or covered up involuntarily? Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Wed May 7 00:12:07 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:12:07 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion [OT:] Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:53:39 -0500 "Padget, Scott R" wrote: >[2] Example of physical consequences and the male dress code[3]: in some >areas of the US, it is decidedly unwise for a man to wear (for example) a pink shirt in public. Even worse if he's thin and has a manicure. Hospitalization, death, and/or gang rape have been known to result.< Hi, Pilot and all! Living in RedneckLand, that's why we prohibited Kipper from wearing my skirt on the public bus to school. He could only do it if he had a ride. Btw, he was told he had nice legs by one of his teachers, too! LOL >Pilot Padget--guerilla genderflipper< Sometime, you and Kipper'll have to paw through my closet together.... I wonder if he'll feel the need to make people reassess gender roles at St. John's College...Annapolis, look out! Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Wed May 7 00:19:01 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 19:19:01 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom (and clothes) References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030506152412.01d89d10@slashyalex.com> Message-ID: <3EB842D4.F300D05F@redmaplegrove.org> > At 14:47 05/05/2003, lorraine fletez-brant wrote: > >I see your point, but my example still stands. > >I guarantee you if I trot outside starkers right now, someone wearing some > >sort of official-looking raiment is going to help me become a guest of > >Sheriff Joe Arpaio's spacious and comfortable accommodations. I probably > >won't be beaten, but I'll certainly be jailed. Hmm. In Ottawa, it would vary, which to me is important. This is sort of why I prefer common law approaches to strictly principled ones. And this is, I think, a distinction worth noting -- the difference between applying a single rule to all cases and having and using reasonable discretion. It's not a difference between shari'a law and Western law necessarily; lots of places Western law is applied 'impartially', which can be good or can mean 'stupidly and unjustly'. Real-life examples: January, naked or indecent person, on street, downtown, doing nothing and appearing dazed -- police investigate and render assistance, ranging from hospital to psych ward as needed. January, naked people skating on the canal: discreet photos in local paper, much amusement, jovial commentary from the local law. Yeah, it does happen every couple years. June, naked or indecent people in the Market area; stern warning possibly followed by arrest if absolutely necessary. July, HOPE volleyball tournament: indiscreet use of open beach and inadequate towel as cabana: I didn't see anything, you see anything? Anytime, anywhere: flashin' and harassin' -- yer goin' to jail, if they catch you. Canada Day Celebrations on Parliment Hill, persons flashing, mooning, whatever for the cameras. RCMP says look, over there we have a REAL problem. Let's leave the T and A squad to their own devices and the editorial genius of the CBC, and go investigate THAT. If it's still going on when we get back to it, well. Persistent exposure; warning and possible ejection. REALLY persistent behaviour tantamount to harassment; arrest. Pride Day parade: as with Canada Day. And so forth. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 7 00:18:01 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 19:18:01 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Betan sarongs Message-ID: <1ce.9186ed4.2be99ca9@aol.com> In a message dated 5/6/2003 4:51:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > Actually, I assumed from the descriptions of Betans wearing sarongs > that men and women could and did go topless on a fairly regular basis. > I know that a sarong can be wrapped around either the waist or under > the arms, but to my mind it is most often around the waist, so I > assumed that Betan men and women did not have a concern about the > public display of male or female mammary glands. > > Do most people assume women on Beta wrap them around under the arms or > around the waist? > According to Kareen and Martya's discussion in ACC, they were topless at that time. And in SoH Cordelia states that the daring types have gone from sarongs to body paint, which implies nudity to me. Mary --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Wed May 7 00:19:35 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:19:35 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom Message-ID: jparish at siue.edu writes: Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:37:09 -0500 >For that matter, in the mid-'80s I taught for a year at the University of Arizona. My first day on campus I had an interview with the chairman of the department; he was wearing Bermudas and, I think, a T-shirt. (Of course, classes hadn't started yet...)< Of course, you *are* talking about Arizona...as the department chair, he could just as easily have taught in Bermudas, too! We are not known for taking clothing customs as seriously as elsewhere :) Take a sabbatical and teach at ASU sometime (although I'm sure their math department is just as demanding as any other university's...so it would be a busman's holiday )! Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From carosue at centurytel.net Wed May 7 00:26:25 2003 From: carosue at centurytel.net (House of Unruly Fish) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:26:25 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Re: POS Galley Auction Update In-Reply-To: References: <200305052303.h45N3Ar5000968@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030506172516.03dda558@mail.so.centurytel.net> > >I suspect the auction has gone beyond Lois' expectations, if not wildest > >dreams... > >We goofed. We should have asked Lois for her estimate of what she thought >the max bid would turn out to be!!! Wildest dreams, no kidding! Still time for someone to set up a betting pool to guess the ending, Christine! :) Susan the Neon Nurse, popping in from FINALLY fixing her messed up website ++++++++++++++++++++++carosue at centurytel.net+++++++++++++++++++++ --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Wed May 7 00:27:25 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 19:27:25 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom References: Message-ID: <3EB844CD.A3E56831@redmaplegrove.org> lorraine fletez-brant wrote: > Take a sabbatical and teach at ASU sometime (although I'm sure their math > department is just as demanding as any other university's...so it would be a > busman's holiday )! Speaking of 80s music. Which we weren't. (HI, KAY!) "It's a holiday in bi-nomia...." *G, D, R* Marna. --------________--------________-------- From countryboy66 at mchsi.com Wed May 7 00:29:33 2003 From: countryboy66 at mchsi.com (Countryboy) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:29:33 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom References: <00d001c3141f$71068420$31432904@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <023301c31427$5af1ec30$d18dd70c@MainComputer> Laura Gallagher stated: > Then again, I've seen people worry that they couldn't handle diapers, or > kids throwing up, etc, - but generally, I think, once you have to, you > do fine. There's a quote from somewhere, I don't recall where, about > how societies should not raise young girls to be squeamish, as "women's > work" requires a strong stomach. I'd say parenting work in general, as > my husband gets stuck with all that kind of work in parenting, too. > I have to second that. When my wife was morning sick with the first one, all I could do was yell (from as far as possible in our apartment) "How are you doing???". Just the sound of someone being sick could make me sick. Now after 4 kids, 2 dogs, 2 turtles, 2 hermit crabs (deceased), and a cat, I can clean up throw up with one hand, clean up p**p with the other, then go eat dinner. It's just what your personal limits/experience give you. Countryboy (Allen) - who's seen enough dirty diapers to last three lifetimes. --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Wed May 7 00:32:28 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] RE: Pilot's compliment In-Reply-To: <200305062306.h46N68r5007224@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Thank you, I needed that. There are days anymore when I don't feel the least bit competent, let alone able to do the things you remember. But I treasaure that you think it anyway. Susan in Seattle --------________--------________-------- From carosue at centurytel.net Wed May 7 00:34:31 2003 From: carosue at centurytel.net (House of Unruly Fish) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:34:31 -0600 Subject: Dress Code Violations (was Re: [LMB] Athosian Religion [OT:]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030506172732.03ddc2b0@mail.so.centurytel.net> Hi Lorraine, and all! >Living in RedneckLand, that's why we prohibited Kipper from wearing my >skirt on the public bus to school. He could only do it if he had a ride. >Btw, he was told he had nice legs by one of his teachers, too! LOL My middle son Sterling liked to wear provocative t-shirts in high school, as well as hakama pants. (As seen on samurai.) One of his favorites said "Straight but not narrow", with assorted symbols indicating alternative pairings. (Northern Sun probably still sells it.) He didn't have any trouble from his peers (more than the usual, anyway) because besides being known for being a little odd, he was known to be a TKD black belt. :) Susan the Neon Nurse ++++++++++++++++++++++carosue at centurytel.net+++++++++++++++++++++ --------________--------________-------- From christine at forber.net Wed May 7 00:37:52 2003 From: christine at forber.net (Christine Forber) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 19:37:52 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <3EB83F83.ACEB4EAE@redmaplegrove.org> References: <20030506145547.I28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: At 07:04 PM 5/6/2003 -0400, Marna Nightingale wrote: > >AFAICT, neither wrong nor right. I know women who were completely >unfazed, and women who considered it as private as you do. And it >didn't seem to map to any other attitudes about modesty that I could >detect. Some of the unfazed ones are women of otherwise almost >puritanical modesty, some of the very fazed make me and thee look >prim, and so forth. I know a woman from the local play-party scene >who not only would not nurse in public, but she would pack up and go >home to do it. I nursed both of my sons when and where they needed it, with some, but few exceptions. Most of our local malls had nursing rooms available, at least by the time my second was born. If necessary, I found a quiet corner of the food court. I always had a receiving blanket with me for privacy and wore suitable clothes. I do remember one time at my parents' when they had some friends round, that Mum asked me to nurse in the other room, if necessary. She figured that some of her friends would be uncomfortable. Since that was her house and her friends, I honoured the request. In my own house, my visitors had to put up with me! On the other hand, a friend of ours had a baby at the end of August. We've been around to their place a few times since, and she always goes upstairs to the nursery when the baby needs feeding. I offered to take a drink up to her once, and was told that she'd get it when she came back down. So, to each their own. Christine --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Wed May 7 00:37:26 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 19:37:26 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion [OT:] References: Message-ID: <3EB84725.E92CDD37@redmaplegrove.org> lorraine fletez-brant wrote: > Living in RedneckLand, that's why we prohibited Kipper from wearing my skirt > on the public bus to school. He could only do it if he had a ride. Btw, he > was told he had nice legs by one of his teachers, too! LOL > > Sometime, you and Kipper'll have to paw through my closet together... grin>. I wonder if he'll feel the need to make people reassess gender roles > at St. John's College...Annapolis, look out! When I visited the OAFB at Royal, in Austin, a new guy moved in. Dave. Dave-From-Virginia. Which made him the third Dave or David at Royal that year, so DFV he remained. And maybe it's the rather different sensibilities I aquired living up here in Sodom-on-the-Rideau, but listen, honey, this boy was SO STRAIGHT! . All possible senses of the word. Had the buzz-cut, had the whole vibe. You couldn't get much more of a straight-edge that would voluntarily move into a semi veg co-op. OAFB and I helped him unpack a bit and get the room ready to paint. Lying on the bed is this rather nice, though worn, object in a pleasant cotton madras. Where does this go? Oh, my skirt? You can leave it there. *boggle* Ok. Hey, Dave, where do you want the motorcycle helmet? Marna, always happy to be bemused in these fashions. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 7 00:36:22 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 19:36:22 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Half-life of knowledge Message-ID: <141.10e78bef.2be9a0f6@aol.com> In a message dated 5/6/2003 5:44:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: One of my favorite biology professors used to warn us frequently not to get too attached to any particular interpretation of data, because "the half-life of scientific information is about 5 years," meaning that half of what you think you know will be obsolete in that time. It's probably even more true now, with the information explosion. I minored in Psych, and I know what you mean. Education is even worse, much, much worse. I had four education courses one summer (didn't decide on a teaching career until after I had already graduated) and they were all based on totally different premises. An interesting problem to try to keep up with which professor believed in what-- Mary > Psychology class was the first place I ran into that problem in college. > Here > I would be, industriously taking notes on Behaviorism, only to find out it > _wasn't true_! How could this rotten class waste my time on teaching me > something that wasn't the One True Thing?? And _then_, I had to go take > notes > on Freudianism, which turned out not to be the One True Thing either (thank > god)! Oh, I was so frustrated! > --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Wed May 7 00:38:47 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 19:38:47 -0400 Subject: [LMB] RE: Pilot's compliment References: Message-ID: <3EB84777.45FFD616@redmaplegrove.org> Susan Profit wrote: > > Thank you, I needed that. There are days anymore when I don't feel the > least bit competent, let alone able to do the things you remember. I hear you. I think everyone feels that way, though. I know *I* do. Daily. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 7 00:39:45 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 19:39:45 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Virtual nudity Message-ID: <147.10eed601.2be9a1c1@aol.com> In a message dated 5/6/2003 5:44:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Have you ever watched the Academy Awards? Less so this year, but in the past some of the actresses involved have been effectively nude, while still clothed. I don't recall any of them being hauled off in paddy wagons, although if the good taste monitors had been called---- Mary > On Tue, 6 May 2003, Padget, Scott R wrote: > >Well, maybe sorta. Though I feel obligated to point out that there are > >many socially-acceptable fashion options for women that reveal-while- > >covering their chests. Or torsos, at any rate. Bare midriff, backless, > >spaghetti straps, fabrics clingy and sheer enough to outline the > >*areaolae* (sp), let alone nipples, while providing substantially less > >support than a sports bra (jiggle), are common. Granted, one garment > >that included *all* these design features would probably be considered > >less than socially acceptable, but I'm sure you see the possibilities. > --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Tue May 6 22:49:43 2003 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:49:43 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Encouraging Bidding for Galleys.... Message-ID: > From: Christine Forber > Date: 06 May 2003 18:42 [...] > At least you folks get tax deductions for your charitable donations. Us > Canadians (and the other non-US folks on the list) don't get that benefit. I > wonder if Lois would consider a donation to a Canadian equivalent charity? There are ways in which a Brit can make a tax deductable donation to a foreign charity according to the CAF (Charities Aid Foundation). However, since you are getting something tangible in exchange the current auction might be outside the rules (because subscriptions to the National Trust get you free admission, doubts have been expressed as whether they are really legal). Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 7 00:50:10 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 19:50:10 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: MIP (Men in Pink) Message-ID: <23.2f241071.2be9a432@aol.com> In a message dated 5/6/2003 7:07:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: My husband, who boxed professionally before he went to law school, was fond of wearing pink, and had a pink sport coat and several pink shirts and sweaters. Somehow nobody ever said anything. Mary > >[2] Example of physical consequences and the male dress code[3]: in some > areas > >of the US, it is decidedly unwise for a man to wear (for example) a pink > shirt in > >public. Even worse if he's thin and has a manicure. Hospitalization, > death, > >and/or gang rape have been known to result. > > Aren't your forgetting about old-line IBMers there?! While the ones I've > seen at trade shows in recent years have included a trade show uniform that > in one case was lavender and white -- I don't remember which was the shirt > color and which was the pants color, once upon at time Big Blue employeers > out in public, wore blue suits with pink shirts. --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Wed May 7 00:52:28 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Virtual nudity In-Reply-To: <147.10eed601.2be9a1c1@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030506165101.N28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Tue, 6 May 2003 CatMtn at aol.com wrote: > Have you ever watched the Academy Awards? Less so this year, > but in the past some of the actresses involved have been > effectively nude, while still clothed. I don't recall any of > them being hauled off in paddy wagons, although if the good > taste monitors had been called---- De gustandibus non disputandum, or something like that. I've a feeling I might well have thought some of the outfits you find 'in bad taste' quite pretty. ~malfoy, who, when you get right down to it, probably would, as her mother once said, rather look ugly and weird than pretty and boring... :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Wed May 7 00:55:06 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 18:55:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tucson (was freedom} In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3EB8050A.9044.335FD90@localhost> lorraine fletez-brant wrote: > Of course, you *are* talking about Arizona...as the department chair, > he could just as easily have taught in Bermudas, too! We are not known > for taking clothing customs as seriously as elsewhere :) Yeah. "It's dry heat; it's not as bad." As bad as *what*, they don't specify. Lemme tell you about dry heat, as experienced by someone who'd lived the last seven years in Chicago. It's your second day in town. Your new apartment is a mile from campus, and it's a beautiful (August) day. You decide to walk, instead of taking the bus. (It's only a mile; back in the day, you used to walk a mile from your dorm to the commons every morning before breakfast, because you had to in order to get to where the breakfast *was*. Today, at least, you've already eaten.) You get onto the main drag and start striding briskly along, as is your wont. It's *really* a nice day. You get halfway to campus, and suddenly realize that there is not an ounce of water left in your body - because it's *dry* heat. You wobble a little as you cross to the south side of the street. (*Never* walk on the north side of the street in Tucson in August.) You sit down for a while, and continue on your way in short spurts. Eventually you make it to campus. After concluding your business, you take the bus home. Dry heat is to moist heat rather as spicy Indian food is to spicy Mexican food. Mexican food, like moist heat, announces itself from the first morsel. Indian food ambushes you; you take one forkful, say, "That's really good", and it is at the instant that the *second* forkful enters your mouth that the first announces itself properly. It is possible to adapt to dry heat; I did, and fairly quickly - but it's an adaptation of habit, not of the body. "It's dry heat." Right. I'll take honest, up-front, muggy, Midwestern heat any day. Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Wed May 7 00:55:06 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 18:55:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: References: <3EB7E4B5.23580.2B7B0DC@localhost> Message-ID: <3EB8050A.4091.335FCE4@localhost> Brian Hurt wrote: > Interview*ers* can wear whatever the heck they want- they already have > a job. Interview*ees* had better damned well wear appropriate garb > according to local customs. Oh, this wasn't the job interview; I already had the job. This was more, "Hi, I'm the new guy, what do you want me to do?" (As it happens, he asked me to teach differential equations. I had studiously avoided *taking* diffeq for a good ten years, but I agreed to give it a try. "The tale is one of those that have not a happy ending", as Dunsany put it...) Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Wed May 7 00:56:55 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:56:55 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom Message-ID: Marna Nightingale tagged and ran: Tue, 06 May 2003 19:27:25 -0400 >>busman's holiday<< >Speaking of 80s music. Which we weren't. (HI, KAY!) < Hmmm. Fondly hearing also "Dreadlock Holiday" in my head...(double thwack to KayC!) Heh. >*G, D, R* < Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 7 00:56:56 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 19:56:56 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Local dress codes Message-ID: <37.383dd4fb.2be9a5c8@aol.com> In a message dated 5/6/2003 7:07:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: One of the hardest thing to get across to young people who have to go to court for any reason is that they are going to be communicating with a judge, and if they look like the judge did in his youth, or how his son looks, or how he would _like_ his son to look, they will have a much better chance of coming out of the experience the way they want. This means, in most parts of the country, a conservative shirt, a tie, short hair, no facial hair, and stand up straight and say "Yes, sir." The ones who are brave enough to go against their peers, forget about their right to express themselves with their clothing, and listen find it to be a really enlightening experience; that clothes and manners really do influence people's attitudes toward them, and can work to their advantage. Mary > There are, as I understand it, two schools of thought about this. The > first is that wearing proper (conservative) native garb makes it easier to > move among the natives with fewer problems. It also helps with the > salesmen side of things- the people you are meeting with *subconciously* > respond to you better if you "look like good people" (i.e. follow the > local dress code). This is why TJ Watson Sr. required blue suits with > white shirts and red ties. He had previously worked at NCR whose salesmen > were allowed to dress like, well, sysadmins. By requiring IBM salespeople > (and by extension, everyone) to conform to corporate dress codes, he put > the executives at ease and helped make the sale. --------________--------________-------- From countryboy66 at mchsi.com Wed May 7 00:56:59 2003 From: countryboy66 at mchsi.com (Countryboy) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:56:59 -0500 Subject: [LMB] [OT]Re: Half-life of knowledge References: <141.10e78bef.2be9a0f6@aol.com> Message-ID: <025901c3142b$2e8e8ff0$d18dd70c@MainComputer> > One of my favorite biology professors used to warn us frequently not to get > too attached to any particular interpretation of data, because "the half-life > of scientific information is about 5 years," meaning that half of what you > think you know will be obsolete in that time. It's probably even more true > now, with the information explosion. > Tell me about it. I take care of the computers that run the refinery (so to speak). The half-life for that stuff is getting to be 2-3 years. (As any IT person can tell you). We're hard pressed to keep up with where we're going much less where we want to be. Countryboy (Allen) - for the first time in his life wishing things would just "slow down"! --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Wed May 7 00:59:58 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 19:59:58 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: MIP (Men in Pink) References: <23.2f241071.2be9a432@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EB84C6C.8191B22C@redmaplegrove.org> CatMtn at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/6/2003 7:07:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > > My husband, who boxed professionally before he went to law school, was fond > of wearing pink, and had a pink sport coat and several pink shirts and > sweaters. Somehow nobody ever said anything. Of course, this basically supports Scott's point... notice how this is the second anecdote linking considerable talent for the use of force and the reputation thereof with being allowed to wear whatever you want? Marna. --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Wed May 7 01:04:13 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:04:13 -0700 Subject: Dress Code Violations (was Re: [LMB] Athosian Religion [OT:]) Message-ID: House of Unruly Fish writes: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:34:31 -0600 >Hi Lorraine, and all! >>Living in RedneckLand, that's why we prohibited Kipper from wearing my >>skirt on the public bus to school. He could only do it if he had a ride. >>Btw, he was told he had nice legs by one of his teachers, too! LOL >My middle son Sterling liked to wear provocative t-shirts in high school, as well as hakama pants. (As seen on samurai.) One of his favorites said "Straight but not narrow", with assorted symbols indicating alternative pairings. (Northern Sun probably still sells it.) He didn't have any trouble from his peers (more than the usual, anyway) because besides being known for being a little odd, he was known to be a TKD black belt. :)< I LOVE it! I'll have to tell Kipper about the t-shirt. Now, Alec, our 15-yr-old who IS a TKD black belt, wouldn't be caught dead or alive anywhere near any of my skirts . He keeps himself to an absolute middle of the road. When streaking boys' hair was really big a couple of years ago, we offered to let him do it (after all, at the time his brother had leopard hair). He recoiled and emphatically shook his head NO THANKS! But I think his alter egos must be the anime characters that he draws, because *they* have wonderful, wild clothing and hair. It's gotta come out somewhere !! Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Wed May 7 01:07:58 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Clothing customs (OT:) In-Reply-To: <3EB83509.31383088@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <20030506165243.H28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Tue, 6 May 2003, Marna Nightingale wrote: > Azalais Malfoy wrote: > > > > In the end I might take the haircut cause the hair > > would grow back but...it would really be very difficult for me, > > it's giving me knots in my stomach just thinking about it. > > Shaving a woman's head or cutting her hair off short has a lot of very > deep and interesting connotations in Western culture. When she > chooses to do it, it's seen as liberating. > > When it's used to mark a change in status, it's usually a > renunciation. Nuns used to be shaved or given crew cuts. Some > Ultra-Orthodox women have their hair cropped on marriage. > > And when it's against her will, it's about as shameful as it gets. > Collaborators got shaved. Adulteresses did sometimes. > > Not surprised there's a lot of resonance there. Yes. You're right--that's a large part of it. There's also, admittedly, a lot of personal history there. My mother and I had vicious fights about my hair from about age 3 to age 5, when she gave up. For some reason, and I don't know where this comes from because it certainly wasn't what my mother believed, I did not want to wear short skirts, pants of any kind, or 'sporty' styles as a child. I also did not want my hair cut short. I was the only person in my elementary school who was unhappy when the administration decided that girls could wear pants, because I had used this rule to keep my mother off my back about it. She wanted my hair and clothes to be Hassle-Free. (She certainly was not a feminist!) I wanted...well, you know all those fussy, frilly clothes most little girls hate? I wanted to look like that all the time, and I still do sometimes. I started wearing pants and jeans in junior high school when I went pure-D Slytherin (and actually had a poodle cut for a while--the pictures are scary) and adopted protective coloration, and I wear pants now sometimes because it's easier. But there have been years and years of my life when I've effectively lived in 'garb'. In graduate school I was renowned for long skirts and carrying a fan and putting my hair up. Had I the money and time to devote to it I would be about as high femme as it is possible to be. Except for the days when I must wear jeans and Docs and a black t-shirt, but then I'm either doing something or in drag, sorta, if you know what I mean. And I always wear a black leather jacket, but I throw it over the most amazing frills sometimes. The point I was trying to make is that to Eric, dressing as protective coloration (wearing what's expected of you, so that your life will be easier) comes very easily. There are those of us for whom it is very difficult, and advice on how to avoid these pitfalls is often welcome. It's certainly not a matter of not being sneaky or pragmatic because lord knows I am capable of being both and then some. It's...visceral. I have *learned* to dress for the office (a variety of offices, actually) and I have *learned* to dress for Japan (I actually do a very good Trendy Asian Kid look) and I have *learned* to dress for various other environments, but it doesn't come to me very easily and even when I do these things there are certain personal boundaries I can't cross. I can't wear skirts much above the knee, even if I like them on others. I can't cut my hair. I have learned to wear pants but there are certain kinds I'm comfortable in and others I'm not--I only own two pair of jeans and one is big, flared jeans and the other is capri pants with glitter. > When I had long hair, I was stressed every time I had to trust someone > to give me a trim. I learned to do it myself :) I cut and color my own hair. Not only does it save me a lot of money, it's personally empowering. > When I decided to cut it off myself, I was amazed at how little regret > I felt. I am planning, when the roots come in all white and not salt-and-pepper, to let the roots come in to about an inch or so and then just cut where the black stops. I am afraid I will hate it, and I won't ever cut it again, but it seems, somehow, like The Thing To Do. Perhaps I'll make a ritual of it. And perhaps I'll dye green snakes into it. And perhaps I'll do both. Who says ritual has to be serious? > I should fill this train of thought out more, sometime. Yah. ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz Wed May 7 01:10:39 2003 From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 12:10:39 +1200 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom Message-ID: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F537029D2BFF@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> I don't like Reggae, oh no! I LOVE it, yeah! Thanks Lorraine, my head was relatively empty (no need to say anything about that), before you mentioned that! ;-P > -----Original Message----- > From: lorraine fletez-brant [mailto:lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com] > Hmmm. Fondly hearing also "Dreadlock Holiday" in my > head...(double thwack to > KayC!) Heh. > --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Wed May 7 01:16:36 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:16:36 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tucson (was freedom} Message-ID: jparish plaintively wrote: Tue, 06 May 2003 18:55:06 -0500 >lorraine fletez-brant wrote: >>Of course, you *are* talking about Arizona...as the department chair, > >he could just as easily have taught in Bermudas, too! We are not known > >for taking clothing customs as seriously as elsewhere :) >Yeah. >"It's dry heat; it's not as bad." As bad as *what*, they don't specify. Lemme tell you about dry heat, as experienced by someone who'd lived the last seven years in Chicago.< And "dry heat" is truly relative...you'll never catch me saying it seriously! >It's your second day in town. Your new apartment is a mile from campus, and it's a beautiful (August) day. You decide to walk, instead of taking the bus.< Knowing that you take the bus rather than driving, this was the part where I started groaning loudly. I could see where this was going, and it wasn't gonna be good! >(It's only a mile; back in the day, you used to walk a mile from your dorm to the commons every morning before breakfast, because you had to in order to get to where the breakfast *was*. Today, at least, you've already eaten.) You get onto the main drag and start striding briskly along, as is your wont. It's *really* a nice day. You get halfway to campus, and suddenly realize that there is not an ounce of water left in your body - because it's *dry* heat. You wobble a little as you cross to the south side of the street. (*Never* walk on the north side of the street in Tucson in August.) You sit down for a while, and continue on your way in short spurts. Eventually you make it to campus. After concluding your business, you take the bus home.< The only time it's a "nice" day in Central or Southern Arizona in August is the two minutes that it takes to get to your car from your refrigerator-chilled office. Then, you open your car door and get a face full of baked air just as your body has had time to appreciate that the goose pimples have started to level out :) Good thing you didn't have to teach on the same day after your little stroll in Tucson! No wonder you wanted to go back to Chicago . Lorraine - who stays out of the sun and heat as much as possible! _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From Pouncer at aol.com Wed May 7 01:18:08 2003 From: Pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 20:18:08 EDT Subject: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? Message-ID: <49.2e15f96a.2be9aac0@aol.com> HI, I'm back. Mostly lurking. Go on about Athos and clothing. But stay kinda on topic once in a while, you know. Or knot. Have fun. Surgery went well, the "Schroedinger's Tumor" period was sort of terrifying but when we finally got the box open and quantum probability states all settled into objective reality it is something with which we can, after all, deal. Time and patience -- one damn thing after another but not every damn thing at once. The damn thing for this week is dealing with exhaustion and the hassle of an Aspen style surgical collar. Four weeks, minimum, while bones heal. Wish for Nexus era bone-stim and re-gen. So, when if ever did Miles have his neck and back bones "done"? A supplemental support graft or replacement? One at a time or a bunch of how many each surgery? What does it do for the old secret identify when Naismith and Vorkosigan are both seen in collars during the same period, or is the Barrayaran "high" necked uniform collar SO high necked (and Miles neck so proportionately short) that Vorkosigan, at least could conceal a collar? Me, I'm betting that since Cordelia thinks Barrayaran neuro surgeons are butchers this is one of the things she sent Miles (and Bothari) off to do at age 15 (Miles's age, not Bothari's) on Beta Colony. And I suppose it'd be better to sheathe the existing bones rather than replace. But I will be interested to hear from the medical experts on list. Thanks for the good wishes. I'll read, but post only rarely for a while. Play nice. --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Wed May 7 01:19:53 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:19:53 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion [OT:] Message-ID: Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 19:37:26 -0400 Marna Nightingale wrote: >[re her OAFB's new roommate Dave] Where does this go? < >Oh, my skirt? You can leave it there. < >*boggle*< Heh. Truly a Dave after Kipper's heart! OWTTE Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Wed May 7 01:17:58 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 19:17:58 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <00d001c3141f$71068420$31432904@earthlink.net> References: <20030506145547.I28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030506191743.02e03080@mail.iqcisp.com> At 03:32 PM 5/6/2003 -0700, Laura Gallagher wrote: >There's a quote from somewhere, I don't recall where, about >how societies should not raise young girls to be squeamish, as "women's >work" requires a strong stomach. Spirit Ring, wasn't it? Louann --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Wed May 7 01:23:52 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F537029D2BFF@PICO.staff.vuw.ac . nz> Message-ID: <20030506172224.T28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> > > From: lorraine fletez-brant [mailto:lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com] > > Hmmm. Fondly hearing also "Dreadlock Holiday" in my > > head...(double thwack to KayC!) Heh. On Wed, 7 May 2003, Tracy MacShane wrote: > I don't like Reggae, oh no! I LOVE it, yeah! > > Thanks Lorraine, my head was relatively empty (no need to say anything > about that), before you mentioned that! ;-P *fumes* Thanks Tracy. I'll have to do you a favor sometime too... ~malfoy, now flashing back to seventh grade, :p ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Wed May 7 01:26:39 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 19:26:39 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Clothing customs (OT:) In-Reply-To: <20030506165243.H28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> References: <3EB83509.31383088@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030506192607.02e056e0@mail.iqcisp.com> At 05:07 PM 5/6/2003 -0700, Azalais Malfoy wrote: >I am planning, when the roots come in all white and not >salt-and-pepper, to let the roots come in to about an inch or so >and then just cut where the black stops. I am afraid I will hate >it, and I won't ever cut it again, but it seems, somehow, like >The Thing To Do. Perhaps I'll make a ritual of it. And perhaps >I'll dye green snakes into it. And perhaps I'll do both. Who >says ritual has to be serious? Sounds like a good one. --------________--------________-------- From Robert at WarnickeLittler.com Wed May 7 01:33:06 2003 From: Robert at WarnickeLittler.com (Robert Warnicke) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:33:06 -0700 Subject: sRe: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <200305070002.h4702ur5007790@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <002401c31430$3ad020d0$6e01a8c0@D6FL1B21> Lorraine wrote: > Of course, you *are* talking about Arizona...as the department chair, he > could just as easily have taught in Bermudas, too! We are not known for > taking clothing customs as seriously as elsewhere :) > Not so. I know for a fact that the Department Chair of History at Arizona State University for the past several years never wore shorts to class nor would she have considered it. My _mother_ is very proper about such things... maybe because she teaches English history. Now her students, they don't wear much. -------- Robert W --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Wed May 7 01:36:48 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <3EB83F83.ACEB4EAE@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <20030506173203.V28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Tue, 6 May 2003, Marna Nightingale wrote: > Azalais Malfoy wrote: > > > Isn't it a rather intimate act? I don't mean intimate in the > > sexual sense, not at all, but...I have the impression that it's > > not quite the same as sticking a bottle in a kid's mouth. Do > > tell me if I'm wrong. > > AFAICT, neither wrong nor right. I know women who were completely > unfazed, and women who considered it as private as you do. And it > didn't seem to map to any other attitudes about modesty that I could > detect. Some of the unfazed ones are women of otherwise almost > puritanical modesty, some of the very fazed make me and thee look > prim, and so forth. I know a woman from the local play-party scene > who not only would not nurse in public, but she would pack up and go > home to do it. *nods* I've just...read stuff. I've read stories about women who have all these wonderful tingling feelings, even a sort of orgasm, while they nurse. No way would I do something that would cause me to come in public. > Basically I think, if you're not comfy, your letdown goes to heck, so > you do what's comfy. Makes sense to me. > > > Pilot Padget--who actually considers public urination in urban > > > areas a health, not freedom, issue > > (Azalais agrees) > > Well, urine is sterile, basically. I just hate the fact that it makes > the area *stink*. Urine is sterile with respect to bacteria, usually--but it can carry viruses, and it can be cultured, and if you are ill, stuff will grow. And it smells awful. > I didn't grow up entirely in urban areas, though. If it's not on a > building or on pavement, or in a tiny little parkette, all places > where it WILL create stink, I can't say as it fazes me much. Well, I have to say I don't mind it so much in the great outdoors, but how often is Mean Miss Malfoy in the great outdoors? Most of the places I go, and most places police patrol, are places where no one ought to be peeing. And my front stoop is a place where no one ought to be peeing. (Or shooting up, for that matter. I do not understand why, with a police station a block away, I can't get something done about people who shoot up in front of my house. It would bother me less if I didn't sometimes find used sharps on the street. There are kids in our neighborhood. But that's another rant. I don't even really live in a bad part of town!) ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz Wed May 7 01:40:58 2003 From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 12:40:58 +1200 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom Message-ID: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F53702A7C991@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> Uh oh! Please be gentle with me, malfoy - I promise not to do it again. ....anything but early Madonna, pleease...! > -----Original Message----- > From: Azalais Malfoy [mailto:tiamat at tsoft.com] > > Thanks Tracy. I'll have to do you a favor sometime too... > > ~malfoy, now flashing back to seventh grade, :p --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 01:42:12 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 02:42:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes, drifting back on topic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030507004212.58721.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Hurt a icrit : > On Tue, 6 May 2003, Eric Oppen wrote: > I liken it to which side of the road you drive on- it doesn't much matter, > so long as everyone *agrees*. Humans need some form of communication to > say "hey, I'd like to jump your bones" and reply yes or no, as desired. > And simply directly asking isn't any *fun* (obviously). Oh, I beg to differ! (Please, please let me differ?) > > Deftly bringing this subject back on topic, I'll mention Betan earrings as > an example. I'd don't have specific textev, but from the impressions I've > gotten you could probably walk down a reasonably busy betan hallway and > see every possible peice of flesh exposed on someone. On Beta, it's not > the flesh that's the signal, it's the earrings. Hmm...doesn't Kareen say something about everyone getting upset about people wearing the wrong earrings, as it messes up the code for everyone? I wonder if it's actually _illegal_ to wear the wrong earrings on Beta, or if it's just a matter of public censure? Joy L. ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 01:51:24 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 02:51:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <3EB6FD68.B50D64B7@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <20030507005124.75276.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Marna Nightingale a icrit : > Brian Hurt wrote: > The three judges did not completely agree on the scope of the law. > They all agreed that Jacobs had not > committed an indecent act. However, Judge Osborne and Mr. Justice > Allan Austin suggested that acts > could be indecent without having a sexual purpose. Judge Weiler on the > other hand, believes that the > question is whether an act would be considered sexual by a reasonable > bystander. She said that the > exposure of breasts in our society does not automatically mean that > the act is being done for sexual > gratification. This is all very silly to me, as it implies that nudity with a sexual purpose is somehow "indecent," but that nudity with no sexual purpose is ok. People may dress in skimpy bathing suits for the purpose of showing off their bodies--often with the added purpose of attracting the attention of the gender flavor of their preference--so how is that different from dressing in nothing at all for the same purpose? > a large part of the > point being conveyed by the women who went 'illegally' topless at > protests in support of Gwen's case (hi! Is anyone really astonished > that I was Right In There? :-) was: Good for you! > > (any woman who is physically capable of 'walking around > with her sexual organs exposed' should seek medical help immediately; > where *I* come from, they call that a severe prolapse!) Oh my god, don't make me _laugh_ like that at work! Joy L. ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 01:56:24 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 02:56:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Toplessness In-Reply-To: <1dc.910f51f.2be87bcb@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030507005624.99905.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> --- CatMtn at aol.com a icrit : > In a message dated 5/5/2003 10:06:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > > I didn't mean they _should_ be treated differently, but it's an imperfect > world. Most men would find it hard to believe that they weren't trying to be > > sexual in their behavior, complicated by the fact that some of the topless > _would_ be trying to behave in a sexually provocative manner. Is this a problem with the women and the way they dress? Or with the men and they way they perceive the mode of dress? This comes perilously close to the old "she was dressed that way, she was askin' for it" argument. Yes, it's an imperfect world, and no, I wouldn't go topless or even scantily dressed in, say, the dingier parts of Atlanta at night, but that doesn't make the double standard _justifiable_. (I realize you don't think it does; this is just me soapboxing.) > And, by the way, as for skin damage, I now wish that I had never gone > outdoors without covering up like a Taliban woman Well, as Marna says, sunblock is a wonderful thing, likewise hats. I have seriously considered going out veiled in the Atlanta summers, and even toyed with the idea of buying a sari, except that I don't know the first thing about tying one. But I would like the _option_ at least of swimming topless, or at the very least, of running out to grab the mail or check the weather without having to worry about covering up "decently." Joy L. ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 02:05:26 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 03:05:26 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030507010526.62234.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> > Pilot Padget--who actually considers public urination in urban areas a > health, > not freedom, issue Ah yes...it's not indecent exposure, it's littering! Joy L. ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Wed May 7 02:20:03 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 18:20:03 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? Message-ID: Pouncer wrote: Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 20:18:08 EDT >Surgery went well, the "Schroedinger's Tumor" period was sort of terrifying but when we finally got the box open and quantum probability states all settled into objective reality it is something with which we can, after all, deal. Time and patience -- one damn thing after another but not every damn thing at once. The damn thing for this week is dealing with exhaustion and the hassle of an Aspen style surgical collar. Four weeks, minimum, while bones heal. Wish for Nexus era bone-stim and re-gen. < Oh, Pouncer! {{{{{hugs}}}}} and to your family, also! It must have been a terrifying time for the whole Pouncer clan. Please keep us posted. It sounds like it could be good news in the end???? You've been and will continue to be in my prayers for healing. Where is Nexus med when you need it??!! Or at least letting Dr. Whassisname, the guy who designed Taura, have a go with research on you (NOT adding anything that wasn't there before; just growing new, better old things). (That was my truly lame ObBujold, just for you) Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Wed May 7 02:23:43 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 21:23:43 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom References: <20030506173203.V28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <07bf01c31437$4d79f1a0$630d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Azalais Malfoy" > On Tue, 6 May 2003, Marna Nightingale wrote: > > > Well, urine is sterile, basically. I just hate the fact that it makes > > the area *stink*. > > Urine is sterile with respect to bacteria, usually--but it can > carry viruses, and it can be cultured, and if you are ill, stuff > will grow. And it smells awful. Urine is sterile when urinated, I think, but stuff can grow it it -afterwards-. > > Well, I have to say I don't mind it so much in the great > outdoors, but how often is Mean Miss Malfoy in the great I don't know.... I thought Slytherins liked the great outdoors?? > outdoors? Most of the places I go, and most places police > patrol, are places where no one ought to be peeing. And my front > stoop is a place where no one ought to be peeing. Do you have a garden hose??? There was someone up in Kennebunk, Maine, that I knew, who hated tourists from Quebec. One day a carful of them with the windows rolled down, pulled into his driveway to turn around. He used the gardenhose on them! > (Or shooting up, for that matter. I do not understand why, with > a police station a block away, I can't get something done about > people who shoot up in front of my house. ... Some places the residents have taken to videotaping such things.... And where the government fails to act, sometimes drughouses spontaneously catch fire, with no one in the neighborhood having seen anything the slightest bit suspicious occur regarding a fire starting.... some friend who live in Worcester told me that that had happened a few blocks from where they lived. The neighbors hadn't seen a thing.... --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Wed May 7 02:30:07 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 18:30:07 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom Message-ID: "Robert Warnicke" contradicts >: Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:33:06 -0700 >>Of course, you *are* talking about Arizona...as the department chair, he could just as easily have taught in Bermudas, too! We are not known for taking clothing customs as seriously as elsewhere :)<< >Not so. I know for a fact that the Department Chair of History at Arizona State University for the past several years never wore shorts to class nor would she have considered it. My _mother_ is very proper about such things... maybe because she teaches English history. Now her students, they don't wear much.< Heh. You win. OTOH, maybe she's just eccentric, like her favorite son??? Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 02:36:48 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 03:36:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: clothing customs In-Reply-To: <009001c31418$1f439800$964a0043@hppav> Message-ID: <20030507013648.78568.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric Oppen a icrit : > > When we were reading _Cetaganda,_ we saw that the Barrayaran Ambassador > (poor wretch!) wore Cetagandan-style robes when out in public. I would do > the same, were I the ambassador from, say, Jackson's Whole, _because it is > their planet and I wish to show politeness by following their customs._ Ah, but it's a bit different when you're visiting somewhere else. Just like I would follow the customs of a house I went to visit (don't put your feet on the furniture), so I try to be a guest when I'm in a foreign country. I cover my shoulders in a cathedral in France, forex. When in Rome, etc. Joy L. ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 02:37:23 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 03:37:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: Amendment IX In-Reply-To: <00aa01c31418$c0e1cce0$31432904@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030507013723.11202.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> --- Laura Gallagher a icrit : > > --- Brian Hurt > I think they ought to try going with Amendment IX > > "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be > construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." Not bad, not bad at all! Joy L. ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Wed May 7 02:38:44 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 19:38:44 -0600 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/6 @ 4:50PM CDT References: <00cf01c3141f$706f7440$31432904@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <009301c31439$65ae02a0$5df3f5ce@puter> > The current high bids are: > > bhosler at partners.org $650 5/6, 12:35PM Insert followed by: *a*p*p*l*a*u*s*e*.... ~ Kay, big-eyed --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 02:39:53 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 03:39:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom and dress codes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030507013953.20190.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Hurt a icrit > Interview*ers* can wear whatever the heck they want- they already have a > job. Interview*ees* had better damned well wear appropriate garb > according to local customs. I've always thought of it as a costume. I have medieval and renaissance costumes, goth costumes, con costumes, and job interview costumes. Admittedly, the job interview costumes are not quite as showy as the others. When I was teaching, I had teacher costumes (these prominently featured a rather severe pair of glasses). Joy L. ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 02:42:57 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 03:42:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom and dress codes In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030506184532.032d6ea8@mail-tk.acpub.duke.edu> Message-ID: <20030507014257.21090.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Tora K. Smulders-Srinivasan" a icrit > > I think university campuses might just have to be excepted overall for > eccentric clothing styles! In my experience, people dress as they please > in general on campus. As far as I can tell for shorts in particular on > adult males, the only times we actually noticed if our male professors > were wearing shorts while teaching was when it was either in really bad > taste or in really good taste. :) Heh. My husband (whee!) teaches electrical engineering here at GA Tech, and he invariably goes into class in shorts and a band t-shirt. Add to that the fact that he is _extrememly_ young-looking, and he often gets taken for a student. It does tickle me when people ask, and he gets to say, "well, actually, I'm a professor." :-) Oh, he does dress up quite well for meetings and occasions. But for the most part he is one of those gotta-be-comfortable types that Kiri objects to. He has other virtues, though. :-) Joy L. ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 02:47:50 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 03:47:50 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: Comment on marrying young In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030430163327.02deadd0@mail.iqcisp.com> Message-ID: <20030507014750.83748.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Louann Miller a icrit : > At 09:18 AM 5/1/2003 +1200, Mandos wrote: > My experience is limited, I admit. But I have trouble picturing someone > going into a marriage with the approach "this is just practice, it doesn't > really count." Ok, it's probably too late to answer this, but...isn't that what dating is for? Practice? After all, the way we do it--or are encouraged to--in NA is so exclusive that it almost is like marriage: exclusive rights to intimate company, and to social time as well in some cases. If you're already in a dating relationship like this, possibly even living together, what would be the point of legalizing it, if it's just for practice? I actually made a very specific point of not being anyone's Girlfriend for several years, because I started to see it as practice marriage, and didn't feel up to that level of exclusivity. Joy L. ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From christine at forber.net Wed May 7 03:00:01 2003 From: christine at forber.net (Christine Forber) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 22:00:01 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <20030506173203.V28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> References: <3EB83F83.ACEB4EAE@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: At 05:36 PM 5/6/2003 -0700, Azalais Malfoy wrote: > >*nods* I've just...read stuff. I've read stories about women >who have all these wonderful tingling feelings, even a sort of >orgasm, while they nurse. No way would I do something that would >cause me to come in public. That, too, varies a lot. I didn't get anything remotely resembling an orgasm and felt quite comfortable nursing in public, once I'd gotten the logistics worked out with each baby. But as always, YMMV. Christine --------________--------________-------- From hotchkiss-c at webtv.net Wed May 7 03:02:13 2003 From: hotchkiss-c at webtv.net (Jane Hotchkiss) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 21:02:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk's message of Tue, 6 May 2003 22:40:03 +0100 Message-ID: <15457-3EB86925-2217@storefull-2373.public.lawson.webtv.net> Gentlemen: which is cooler/ more high temperature-bearable: shorts & kneesocks or long trousers with short socks? My recollection of the British-culture-areas is that the kneesocks are wool, defeating (for me) the whole no-long-trousers bit. Jane --------________--------________-------- From Cathal1950 at aol.com Wed May 7 03:08:12 2003 From: Cathal1950 at aol.com (Cathal1950 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:08:12 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Religion/Infantacide Message-ID: <146.10d64b8c.2be9c48c@aol.com> There is a book called "The Kindness of Strangers" which is a source for some of the material I use for a seminar on child abuse. Naturally, having just moved a Brayant plus of books and in the midst of shelving them, I can't put my hand on it at this moment, but.. The various ways infants were dealt with are incredible. Over history. Greece, Rome and forward. Exposing children as Oedipus we all know about but there have been many ways of removing children from the family some of them sort of a lottery for the child -- wild animals Vs the handy woodsman. There are Roman and Greek laws about "found children" left with a token so they can be identified later. Of course sending children to wet-nurse in a hut somewhere killed off a large percentage. When I find the book, I'll quote the material about infanticide. Julian n a message dated 5/6/2003 4:02:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, lois-bujold-r > >The fact that Barrayarans practiced infanticide in the Time of > >Isolation argues against any presence of Christianity, above the > >level of "folk religion". > > A lot of people in medieval Europe would be shocked to hear that. > > ~malfoy > --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Wed May 7 03:16:43 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:16:43 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom and dress codes References: <20030507014257.21090.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <087201c3143e$b4c96050$630d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joyeuse" > --- "Tora K. Smulders-Srinivasan" a icrit > > Heh. My husband (whee!) teaches electrical engineering here at GA Tech, and he > invariably goes into class in shorts and a band t-shirt. Add to that the fact > that he is _extrememly_ young-looking, and he often gets taken for a student. > It does tickle me when people ask, and he gets to say, "well, actually, I'm a > professor." :-) > Deb Geisler, who's the chair of the 2004 Worldcon, did something REALLY vile to a class once -- she had someone else dress up and stand in front of the class for its first meeting of the semester, while she heckled from student seating, with the students getting more and more uncomfortable, until after several minutes the shill exited, and Deb stood up and went to the front of the room, and it began to dawn on the students.... "Now why did you think that she was the instructor?" It was a class in advertising or marketing or something like that. --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Wed May 7 03:23:36 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 19:23:36 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <20030506173203.V28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <00d701c3143f$aa48d1a0$31432904@earthlink.net> on nursing: > *nods* I've just...read stuff. I've read stories about women > who have all these wonderful tingling feelings, even a sort of > orgasm, while they nurse. No way would I do something that would > cause me to come in public. Definitely a case of YMMV. Not me. I nurse quite well, I'm a productive cow, but I don't even get a noticeable letdown reflex. Oh well. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Wed May 7 03:31:49 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 19:31:49 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030506191743.02e03080@mail.iqcisp.com> Message-ID: <00d801c31440$d00a3c20$31432904@earthlink.net> Laura Gallagher wrote: >>There's a quote from somewhere, I don't recall where, about >>how societies should not raise young girls to be squeamish, >> as "women's work" requires a strong stomach. > > Spirit Ring, wasn't it? > > Louann Oh my goodness. And ObBujold, and I didn't even realize it. I knew I remembered the bit, and that I thought it was sensible, but I'd totally forgotten that it came from a Bujold book. Fortunately Karl reread Spirit Ring recently, and was able to quickly find it for me. From when they were trying to find a wetnurse, and the housekeeper Ruberta assured Fiametta that she could find one. "I don't know why they encourage maidens to be squeamish, there's no place in women's work for someone afraid to get her hands dirty." Thank you, Lois! Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Wed May 7 03:34:28 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 22:34:28 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom and nudity References: <20030507005124.75276.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EB8709E.B656C547@redmaplegrove.org> Joyeuse wrote: > --- Marna Nightingale a icrit : > Brian Hurt wrote: > > This is all very silly to me, as it implies that nudity with a sexual purpose > is somehow "indecent," but that nudity with no sexual purpose is ok. People > may dress in skimpy bathing suits for the purpose of showing off their > bodies--often with the added purpose of attracting the attention of the gender > flavor of their preference--so how is that different from dressing in nothing > at all for the same purpose? No, see, that's not 'a sexual purpose' within the meaning of the law. With a sexual purpose in this context means 'for the purpose of engaging in an overtly sexual act'. Intentionally crossing the line into *an overtly sexual act* *while in public* is the *minimum* criteria for charging with indecency, basically; it has to be both. Like overt exibitionism, or stripping off clothes while you're necking and petting with someone, andcetera. The kind of act you're talking about has a sexual component, but it's implicit rather than overt, which is to say it is not held to be the main purpose of wearing a bathing suit. So it's not overt and it's not unmistakable. Now, if it were lingerie, instead of a bathing suit, you might not get away with it. FWIW, my take is this: what they want to do is balance maximum freedom with avoiding opening up the way for people to behave in overtly sexual ways in places and fashions which involve the nonconsenting. Which is a fine line, but I think the current ruling straddles it pretty well. Well enough to be going on with, anyway; life and law being constant change and all. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 7 03:34:58 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:34:58 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Weird vs. Boring Message-ID: <1ec.833a10d.2be9cad2@aol.com> In a message dated 5/6/2003 8:03:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: I'm afraid that like the Colonel's lady and Judy O'Grady, we're more alike than you would like to think--MY mother once told me that I didn't have any "clothes," just "costumes." I think she meant about the same thing yours did-- Mary > > ~malfoy, who, when you get right down to it, probably would, as > her mother once said, rather look ugly and weird than pretty and > boring... :) --------________--------________-------- From mel_in_kanazawa at yahoo.com.au Wed May 7 03:35:39 2003 From: mel_in_kanazawa at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Melanie=20Harris?=) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 12:35:39 +1000 (EST) Subject: [LMB] OT: Welcome back Pouncer! Message-ID: <20030507023539.85202.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> *ahem* Not that I knew you were gone, since I'm waaaay behind and just decided to skip to the most recent digest today... but welcome back anyway! > Surgery went well, the "Schroedinger's Tumor" period > was sort of terrifying but when we finally got the > box open and quantum probability states all settled > into objective reality it is something with which we > can, after all, deal. GOOD!!!!! *careful hug* Look after yourself, OK? And keep us posted - we care, ya know! - Mel ===== Melanie Harris .....now in Kanazawa, JAPAN! (Yokatta ne!) http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Wed May 7 03:37:13 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 20:37:13 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom References: Message-ID: <011b01c31441$9162b1e0$5df3f5ce@puter> Lorraine and Marna gang up to torment: >> Speaking of 80s music. Which we weren't. (HI, KAY!) << Aw, do we HAFTA....? > Hmmm. Fondly hearing also "Dreadlock Holiday" in my head...(double thwack to KayC!) Heh. < Plplpthpthptptttt!!! to you both. >> *G, D, R* << You may grin wide enough. You may duck low enough. But I *promise* you, you cannot RUN far enough. You. Will. Pay. ~ Kay, moseying off to listen to some Merle or something. Or maybe Willie. Or, wait. Freddy! *That's* it! Senor Fender.... --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Wed May 7 03:40:29 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 21:40:29 -0500 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/6 @ 9:40PM CDT Message-ID: <20030507024029.GB11294@fireopal.org> See the current info web page at - it also has the list of who's asked to be included in the read, sign & pass along copy - http://www.fireopal.org/~sraun/lmb_pos_auction.html The current high bids are: bhosler at partners.org $650 5/6, 12:35PM carosue at centurytel.net $350 5/6, 9:07AM ndrosen at erols.com $300 5/5, 9:35AM There are currently forty-eight people signed up for the read, sign & pass-along copy. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From Cathal1950 at aol.com Wed May 7 03:45:20 2003 From: Cathal1950 at aol.com (Cathal1950 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:45:20 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Dress Codes Message-ID: <11e.215053d4.2be9cd40@aol.com> II remember getting off the plane in Islamabad confident that my backpack had provided me with sufficient cover-up Knee socks, long split skirt, long sleeved, high necked blouse. And was rushed to a dressmaker to be measured for some shalwar-camise outfits which I then wore the rest of the time. Looked rather odd with a hiking hat and shoes and a canteen but seemed to make my Patan driver happy. Although I realized I was a sort of honorary male because In Peshawar, looking through clothing and jewelry Afghan refugees had sold in a bazaar, I spotted a burka and put it on. The Driver went nuts and so did my ex. They were offering me all sorts of things "You'll like better" I still wish I'd gotten it -- to hang in the corner as a reminder and then, somedays it would be nice to go to the store in a tent. I used to wear the nice Shalwar-Camise outfits I had made in the Anarkali bazaar there, here in the US for parties. Invariably, I'd tuck up the sides of the "pantaloons" so the cuffs would be at my ankles -- and I'd walk in a room and my Indian/Pakistani friends would go right for my waist and let them down so the narrow cuffs rested on top of my feet and the rest bloused over. The idea being that you could go up stairs etc. and never have an uncovered ankle. My friends were often not wearing them but just automatically "fixed" them. But I did see women surveying students out with plane tables, rods etc, with bright fire-engine red duputas over their heads -- the head covering. I wore it around my neck as many do. I flew from Karachi to Lahore in first class with a couple -- a local Pakistani man and his German wife. I thought she'd change but not -- there she was in the airport in a sleeveless cotton dress and strap sandals and he looked quite comfortable with it. On the other hand, in the Karachi airport, leaving I saw a woman in a buka, with fancy sandals pulling along a 5-6 year old child dressed in high heels, make up and jewelry, I assume her child. My first thought was that she was using the childl as an advertisement for what was under the burka. But then I have a thing about little girls out on the street or at school in full make up and spandex. It Would be nice if we could just dress as we wish without legal constraints. But taste and custom would still rule. I was a department store buyer for a moment - Oh the clothes rules! We all make judgments on clothes and though we would like others to let us be as we wish, they make judgments on us. A sort of a dance. I see I have gotten carried away with this -- really because I find it fascinating -- and like to dress well. My father was a sort of Chicago Dandy until the day he died and I'd like to be. Julian - who cannot afford bespoke suits but wishes he could. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 7 03:48:01 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:48:01 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2345 - 18 msgs Message-ID: <193.19e10fbc.2be9cde1@aol.com> In a message dated 5/6/2003 9:00:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Yeah--he's got to be the only grey-haired white man who ever walked through the heart of Watts during a police strike, and didn't have anything said to him but "Hi, champ" because he had been to a gym and had his boxing shoes slung over his shoulder. For somebody about 5'6", that's not bad. It doesn't actually take force, just the appearance of it, I guess. Actually, Miles reminds me a lot of Joe--brilliant and hyper. By the way, the police strike started while he was at the gym, and being an out-of-towner he didn't know about it. I'd like to think (although I'm not sure) that he would have had the sense to stay at his hotel if he'd been warned. Mary > Of course, this basically supports Scott's point... notice how this is > the second anecdote linking considerable talent for the use of force > and the reputation thereof with being allowed to wear whatever you > want? > --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Wed May 7 03:51:09 2003 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 03:51:09 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Athosian Religion OT: Message-ID: > From: lorraine fletez-brant > Date: 07 May 2003 00:06 [...] > > But for England, are you saying that a woman could appear in public naked > and she would not be arrested or covered up involuntarily? That's my understanding, there may be special regulation for Royal parks, railways stations and such and oddly, if the woman was carrying a suitable (or unsuitable) nude photograph of herself she could be arrested for that. -- Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 7 04:01:07 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 23:01:07 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Sunblock Message-ID: <172.19f928a8.2be9d0f3@aol.com> In a message dated 5/6/2003 9:00:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Sunblock is now my main cosmetic. But the stuff they had 35-40 years ago when I was running around North Padre collecting all that sun damage for the future was nasty--it felt like wearing axle grease. My father had to use it, and tried to get me to, but I stupidly refused. As for hats, it's much too windy there--you'd spend half your time pulling it out of your face and the other half chasing it. As for covering up--we bought 60 acres on the side of a mountain and built our house right in the middle of it. We fenced in around 20 acres around the house. We had an outdoor shower, and went outside however we felt like. I had to sell that house and 20 acres 6 years ago, and really miss the freedom. Mary > Well, as Marna says, sunblock is a wonderful thing, likewise hats. I have > seriously considered going out veiled in the Atlanta summers, and even > toyed > with the idea of buying a sari, except that I don't know the first thing > about > tying one. But I would like the _option_ at least of swimming topless, or > at > the very least, of running out to grab the mail or check the weather > without > having to worry about covering up "decently." --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Wed May 7 04:16:48 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 21:16:48 -0600 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/6 @ 9:40PM CDT References: <20030507024029.GB11294@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <014901c31447$18f2ba60$5df3f5ce@puter> Hi, all! Y'know, it occurs to me.... 1.) Lois came up with this charity auction idea in the first place because she wished to see an inevitability (the auction of ARCs) turned to a nobler cause than lining the pockets of strangers. 2.) If I were a publisher, *any* publisher, I'd be quite royally miffed at seeing ARCs show up on ebay. Those copies went out for a specific purpose, and while they still may be serving such by garnering reviews and helping boost pre-pub buzz, they've also mutated into for-profit items. Pretty considerable profit, in some cases. Which just somehow... ain't fittin'. 3.) Baen, as a publishing house, is an innovator. They're willing to be imaginative, take risks, experiment. So.... Combining all these things, how about Baen actually prohibiting the sale of their ARCs on eBay, YahooAutions, and etc, prior to the official sale date. (Serial number or otherwise mark the ARCs so that if one does show up, it can be traced back to the person to whom it was issued, by way of discouraging the practice.) And then create, say, half a dozen specially bound galley proofs of each new book, and *host their own auction*, with the author choosing the benefitting charities. Is this do-able? Practical? Silly as heck? To take what Lois has done here semi-privately, and formalize it, making it house-wide to Baen. Would the auction itself be publicity-worthy? Add to the buzz? ("Bujold Fans Set New Auction Record!") Considering that we're a relatively small group here, and specialized to a single author, the totals up so far are danged impressive. How much more money for good causes could be raised if the auction was being promoted on Baen's website--wider nets catching more fish, and all..... Just an idea. Thoughts? ~ Kay --------________--------________-------- From hotchkiss-c at webtv.net Wed May 7 04:44:24 2003 From: hotchkiss-c at webtv.net (Jane Hotchkiss) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:44:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: Clothing customs In-Reply-To: lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk's message of Wed, 7 May 2003 03:48:05 +0100 Message-ID: <14056-3EB88118-2450@storefull-2372.public.lawson.webtv.net> Malfoy paraphrased Eric as saying ... wearing what's expected of you so your life will be easier. I wore what -garments- were expected, but I didn't wear the extensive cosmetics, or warpaint as I prefer to call it, except lipstick & eyeshadow, period, & those rarely. This was a problem for me in the department store where I worked. Yes, past tense, it closed 2 weeks ago after 89 years, will reopen in the fall as a leased operation. I'm just glad the situation is resolved. Now I can take the summer in Michigan if my mother gets well enough to go. And Joy, I do swim there nude, tying my suit to the dock after I'm in the water. I don't have the nerve to go from the house into the lake without one. Jane --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Wed May 7 04:53:48 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 03:53:48 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: the auction and a note on maps OT: Message-ID: <20030506.205417.17581.406185@webmail05.lax.untd.com> Raye notes that: "One thing I *hated* about Tolkien's writing was the stereotypical depiction of every country. The Numemoreans were tall and brave and noble. The Gondori were dark and strong-willed but easily misled. The Rohirrim were blond and free-spirited. Where was a brunet Rohirrim? Didn't the Gondori have any librarians? Were there any Numemoreans who were (gasp) *short*?" Er, yes. So many ancient civilizations ran to xenophobia, in-breeding and social specialization [1]. Bad form that. Sometimes its useful for one's characters to be representative of their culture, rather than anomolies, also. But you're forgetting Grima Wormtongue :-) Kirsten (Been gone this past week) Edwards [1] Quick: Name the top-three biggest US beer companies. How many *are not* German-derived? ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Wed May 7 05:00:28 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 21:00:28 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: was freedom/Now music from 7th grade Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:23:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Azalais Malfoy: > >> From: lorraine fletez-brant [mailto:lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com] > >> Hmmm. Fondly hearing also "Dreadlock Holiday" in my > >> head...(double thwack to KayC!) Heh. >On Wed, 7 May 2003, Tracy MacShane wrote: >>I don't like Reggae, oh no! I LOVE it, yeah! > >>Thanks Lorraine, my head was relatively empty (no need to say anything >>about that), before you mentioned that! ;-P Always glad to oblige... :) >*fumes* Thanks Tracy. I'll have to do you a favor sometime too...< >~malfoy, now flashing back to seventh grade, :p< Gee, Kiri, 7th grade? "Dreadlock Holiday" was grad school for me! Now I feel creaky! 7th grade for me was "Louie, Louie." And we could NEVER figure out the words! :) Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper, swaying to the tune _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Wed May 7 05:02:15 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 21:02:15 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Dress Codes In-Reply-To: <11e.215053d4.2be9cd40@aol.com> Message-ID: <00dc01c3144d$725f6e80$31432904@earthlink.net> Julian wrote: > I used to wear the nice Shalwar-Camise outfits I had made in > the Anarkali bazaar there, here in the US for parties. Oh, yes - I have several of those outfits. Used to wear them to work frequently. I like them, but I had to have my mom make some for me (there is a Little India section around here, but you know, most Indian women do NOT come in my size), and I never could convince her that I needed her to add pockets. They're kinda worn out now, and not suitable pregnancy wear, but I'd love to have more in the future. I never could get the hang of the dupatta, though. I suspect I needed to have been brought up to it. I have a couple VERY fancy ones with tons of embroidery and/or metal work, but I don't have occasions to wear them, and need to lose a bit of weight first. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Wed May 7 05:04:55 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 00:04:55 -0400 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/6 @ 9:40PM CDT References: <20030507024029.GB11294@fireopal.org> <014901c31447$18f2ba60$5df3f5ce@puter> Message-ID: <090601c3144d$d2064750$630d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kay Carrasco" > Hi, all! > > Y'know, it occurs to me.... > > > 2.) If I were a publisher, *any* publisher, I'd be quite > royally miffed at seeing ARCs show up on ebay. Those copies went > out for a specific purpose, and while they still may be serving > such by garnering reviews and helping boost pre-pub buzz, they've > also mutated into for-profit items. Pretty considerable profit, > in some cases. Which just somehow... ain't fittin'. > > 3.) Baen, as a publishing house, is an innovator. They're > willing to be imaginative, take risks, experiment. So.... > > Combining all these things, how about Baen actually > prohibiting the sale of their ARCs on eBay, YahooAutions, and > etc, prior to the official sale date. (Serial number or otherwise Dubious -- publishers distribute ARCs to reviewers in hopes of getting reviews out before the book is available, or so that the reviews come out at the time the book comes out. Reviews that show up after the book's off the shelf, are counterproductive, particularly if the book has sold not well enough for reprinting.... the idea is to get the reviews out so that book sells well and if the demand stays high enough for a reprint.... But in order for the reviews to appear, review copies have to go out far enough in advance to reviewers, for them to read the book, write the review, and have the review published in Locus, or Chronicle, or Analog, F&SF, Weird Tales, Asimov's, the Washington Post, New York Review of SF, or the various on-line site, in -advance- of the book's availability on the shelves of stores or at amazon.com . So, out go the ARCs, months in advance. And when the reviewer's read the book, if the reviewer's in small apartment in e.g. New York City, the reviewer doesn't have -room- for all the review copies. Or, the reviewer may have no interest in reviewing the book -- the reviewer might dislike the book, or be full up reviewing other things, etc. Anyway, the reviewer now has this surplus ARC taking up space, and by selling it, can turn unwanted ARC into cash, and free up space to move around the apartment in. And the faster the reviewer gets it out of the abode, the less space it's taken up, and the faster then clutter gets turned into pocket change. > mark the ARCs so that if one does show up, it can be traced back > to the person to whom it was issued, by way of discouraging the > practice.) And then create, say, half a dozen specially bound > galley proofs of each new book, and *host their own auction*, > with the author choosing the benefitting charities. > This sounds like a PITA -- the publisher doesn';t usually have physical custody of more than a few random copies of books at its headquarters, shipping of production copies goes out from the book printing and distribution system, not from the publisher's offices. I don't know where ARCs usually go out from, but again, they're printed up elsewhere, and to make special bound copies of them, would be a major disruption -- commercial publishers don't do things in quantity tiny, and the smaller the quantity, the more expensive things get per copy. ARCs are produced for one main purpose -- to get out review copies to reviewers, to stimulate demand for the book. They're not intended as final edited commercial product books, and have typoes, errors that haven't been corrected yet, etc., in them -- they're basically not full edited preproduction copies that are what's available to get out to reviewers in time for the reviewers' reviews to get published. > Is this do-able? Practical? Silly as heck? To take what Lois > has done here semi-privately, and formalize it, making it > house-wide to Baen. Would the auction itself be > publicity-worthy? Add to the buzz? ("Bujold Fans Set New Auction > Record!") Considering that we're a relatively small group here, > and specialized to a single author, the totals up so far are > danged impressive. How much more money for good causes could be > raised if the auction was being promoted on Baen's website--wider > nets catching more fish, and all..... > > Just an idea. Thoughts? --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Wed May 7 05:07:12 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 04:07:12 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: The third way Message-ID: <20030506.210716.17581.406374@webmail05.lax.untd.com> [snipping the rest of the post] Raye notes: "Some say that there is one unpardonable sin (which has to do with blasphemy, not sex), and some say that the first group is misreading the scriptures and that there is no unpardonable sin." There's a third bunch that argue that the only unpardonable sin is deciding that you cannot be pardoned. Kirsten (who is not making this up :-) Edwards ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Wed May 7 05:08:34 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 04:08:34 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: The third way mea culpa Message-ID: <20030506.210924.17581.406402@webmail05.lax.untd.com> I hit send before by mistake before typing: It's a POV I'll bet Cordelia shares. Kirsten (the v. tired & backlogged) Edwards ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Wed May 7 05:57:30 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 00:57:30 -0400 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/6 @ 9:40PM CDT References: <20030507024029.GB11294@fireopal.org> <014901c31447$18f2ba60$5df3f5ce@puter> <090601c3144d$d2064750$630d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <3EB89220.77CA3E7A@redmaplegrove.org> Send 'em out as e-books. In, yeah, a limited format, to avoid Other Problems. No more overcrowded reviewers' apartments, no more ARCs on eBay, and probably cheaper to boot. Marna, suspecting that there might be a reason why that wouldn't work either, but what the hey.... --------________--------________-------- From litalex at slashyalex.com Wed May 7 05:50:46 2003 From: litalex at slashyalex.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 21:50:46 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030506214629.00b3e8f0@slashyalex.com> Hello, At 00:38 05/06/2003, annie mouse wrote: >I agree! I've never understood why see-through pantyhose is required for >"business attire." Although they do make legs look thinner, they are the >MOST uncomfortable, itchy, hot, creations! Especially during a 9 >block walk to work in the summer or strolling around during lunch =(. >Expensive too (given the replacement rate)! A-ha, I know there's a reason why I dress in 'masculine' attire at work... ;-) little Alex --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Wed May 7 06:11:10 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 01:11:10 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom['s just another word for, nothin' left to wear] References: Message-ID: <3EB89554.C9A90D3@redmaplegrove.org> Let me relieve you all of your present earworms in the only way possible. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Wed May 7 06:16:25 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 01:16:25 -0400 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/6 @ 9:40PM CDT References: <20030507024029.GB11294@fireopal.org> <014901c31447$18f2ba60$5df3f5ce@puter> <090601c3144d$d2064750$630d4b43@LAPTOP> <3EB89220.77CA3E7A@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <096a01c31457$cefaa970$630d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marna Nightingale" > Send 'em out as e-books. In, yeah, a limited format, to avoid Other > Problems. > > No more overcrowded reviewers' apartments, no more ARCs on eBay, and > probably cheaper to boot. > > Marna, suspecting that there might be a reason why that wouldn't work > either, but what the hey.... That one's simple, most people find reading e-books more difficult in terms of eyestrain and such, than text on paper. And if one's work requires one to do a -lot- of reading, as in being a reviewer, that's -more- difficult and literally headache-inducing. --------________--------________-------- From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu Wed May 7 06:28:58 2003 From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (Andrew Lambdin-Abraham) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 00:28:58 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom['s just another word for, nothin' left to wear] In-Reply-To: <3EB89554.C9A90D3@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: On Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 12:11 AM, Marna Nightingale wrote: > Let me relieve you all of your present earworms in the only way > possible. > > Marna. Next on Fox-Canada: Milton Friedman and "Free to Choose what not to wear" :-p Andrew --------________--------________-------- From agnes at charrel.net Wed May 7 06:35:26 2003 From: agnes at charrel.net (Agnes Charrel-Berthillier) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 22:35:26 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Clothing customs (on-topic) References: Message-ID: <3EB89B1E.5000209@charrel.net> > On Tue, 6 May 2003, Eric Oppen wrote: >>When we were reading _Cetaganda,_ we saw that the Barrayaran Ambassador >>(poor wretch!) wore Cetagandan-style robes when out in public. Vorreedi is the one who usually wears "the body suits and calf length robes of Cetagandan street wear" (p161, Baen PB edition), also described as "well-cut" (p124) and proper garb for "a middle-ranking ghem-lord of painfully sober preferences" (p183). Vorreedi the "protocol officier". As a spy (even as the top Barrayaran spy on Cetaganda he seems to like working in the field) he would have a preference for clothes that blend in. >>I would do >>the same, were I the ambassador from, say, Jackson's Whole, _because it is >>their planet and I wish to show politeness by following their customs._ However Amabassador Vorob'yev is never shown wearing Cetagandan dress - we always see him in the mourning version of his House uniform (unless of course you found some textevd to the contrary - I managed not to reread the whole book while checking the most likely locations). And during the ceremony of "Singing Open The Great Gates" (p229), Vorreedi certainly wears his House blacks (like all the other Barrayaran representatives). In the very first ceremony we see the Betan ambassadress wearing a "a black-on-purple brocade jacket and matching sarong" (p44). And Miles can identify several other delegations by their dress. Brian Hurt replied: > > There are, as I understand it, two schools of thought about this. The > first is that wearing proper (conservative) native garb makes it easier to > move among the natives with fewer problems. > The other school of thought is that the diplomat is there to represent > his goverment, he is not part of the local culture, and should not > subordinate himself to the locals in *any* way. The idea here is that > if you take your dress queues from the locals, you might take other > queues. From my admittedly limited observation of formal diplomatic fucntions (as shown on TV), formal wear for diplomats seem to be their country's formal wear. Always. I think the reasons are twofold. First, in such circumstances they represent their government and their culture, and dressing as a local is not expected... or even appropriate: Mia Maz is shown wearing "black linings and pure white over-robes, combining the two mourning colors, acknowledging the Ceatagandan hues *without over-stepping the boundaries of haut-priviledge*" (emphasis mine) at the poetry contest (p127). If some clothing combinations are reserved to local royalty/nobility and you have the choice to wear peasant garb or foreign garb, as a diplomatic envoy you are always better off wearing whatever would be proper in your country (if maybe adapted to fit local taboos - a variant covering shoulders/head... if necessary). Second, it is not necessarily easy to do well in clothings you are not very familiar with. An Indian friend laughed at me and told me wearing a sari required quite a bit of training in order not to look ridiculous... or to fall out of the thing (I also tried wearing a kimono once, and it wasn't a good experience either). You don't want to look ridiculous when representing your country. What diplomatic personel wear in less formal settings is a whole different kettle of fish. That's where making the natives comfortable might be appropriate. > The second school of thought tends to be, umm, more aggressive in it's > international diplomacy. I could easily see Gregor being subtle > enough to want a salesman, not just a represenitive, especially for > the critical Cetagandan post. Well, nice idea but totally contradicted by the textevd. The more senior the diplomat, the less Cetagandan clothes they wear. And Vorreedi is definitely shown as a freak - even the plainsclothes bodyguard that tails Miles and Ivan at the Fair is less comfortable with his civilian wear than him. > If the Cetagandans need to be confronted, the Imperial > Navy can do the confronting. The diplomatic staff is probably focused on > making sure the confronting isn't necessary. And I don't think the > average, run-of-the-mill Cetagandan would take well to an upstart > Barrayaran "taking on airs" as it were. Putting on clothes that you are not allowed to wear by local custom (see Mia Maz above) would certainly count as "taking on airs". House blacks, however, are always correct. Agnes --------________--------________-------- From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu Wed May 7 06:37:43 2003 From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (Andrew Lambdin-Abraham) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 00:37:43 -0500 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/6 @ 9:40PM CDT In-Reply-To: <096a01c31457$cefaa970$630d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <06B44963-804E-11D7-BF27-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu> On Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 12:16 AM, Paula Lieberman wrote: > That one's simple, most people find reading e-books more difficult in > terms > of eyestrain and such, than text on paper. And if one's work requires > one to > do a -lot- of reading, as in being a reviewer, that's -more- difficult > and > literally headache-inducing. Give it a year, till they all have LCDs. Especially the ones in tiny New York apartments.[1] I can't look at my CRT for more than a hour or so without eyestrain, which is why I rarely look at it much. I have an LCD at work and in my primary system (laptop), and so I can easily spend 13 hours a day at a computer and have no problems[2]. If I could just adjust it to a more comfortable angle, I'd have no problem reading it. As it is, Pride and Prejudice (thank you Marna) is sitting on my desktop, I've read a fair amount with no problems and merely need more dedicated time to it... Andrew [1] Where they probably will all have iTits[3] (I mean iMac2s) [2] Yes, I actually do that [3] It certainly looks like one. I'll not consider what that makes the arm or 15-17" thing on the end... --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Wed May 7 06:38:56 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 05:38:56 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom and nudity OT: Message-ID: <20030506.223908.17581.407191@webmail05.lax.untd.com> Have been getting caught up w/the mail after about a week w/out internet access... and I seem to have figured it out: Cultural mores that include opportunities for public nakedness are good and wholesome. Cultural mores that preclude opportunities for public nakedness are bad and oppressive. Laws ought to encourage and support the former culture while preventing and (ideally) destroying the latter. Thanks. Kirsten Edwards (Who couldn't care less what the various tribal societies require their members to wear if only they were able to enjoy property rights, non-despotic governments, and equality under the law) ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From agnes at charrel.net Wed May 7 06:46:42 2003 From: agnes at charrel.net (Agnes Charrel-Berthillier) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 22:46:42 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? References: <49.2e15f96a.2be9aac0@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EB89DC2.5030408@charrel.net> Pouncer at aol.com wrote: > > So, when if ever did Miles have his neck and back bones "done"? > A supplemental support graft or replacement? One at a time or > a bunch of how many each surgery? I thought the problem with Miles was only with his long bones - but I am too lazy to look it up. I don't think his neck or back bones (or head!) were ever done. Sorry Pouncer, but I think you are one of a kind ;) Best wishes for a speedy recovery, Agnes --------________--------________-------- From aerapson at cox.net Wed May 7 06:42:10 2003 From: aerapson at cox.net (Tony Rapson) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 00:42:10 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Comment on marrying young [OT:] References: <188.18da480f.2be16215@aol.com> <00b201c30f64$5ed269a0$eb24d943@ray1000> <5.2.1.1.1.20030502072924.02dfb2a0@mail.iqcisp.com> Message-ID: <004601c3145b$676c0de0$e67a0044@cx744673a> Russell Martens wrote: > > (re his early marriage, going strong at the six-year mark) > > Louann replied > Exactly. It sounds like you jumped off from the same psychological spot as > us latecomers, you just got there at a younger calendar age. Best wishes > for many happy decades. > > I think the key, young or old, is having that understanding of who you are > by yourself before trying to meld that self into a couple. > I know it's way late to respond to this thread, but I've been off-line for a long tome, and I'm now trying to catch up. I've been married 31 years, and finally realized I married the wrong person. I love her...but not properly in love. Unfortunately, I've finally met the woman I AM in love with. But I will not violate my vows and hurt someone I care about. Even more unfortunately, the other woman loves me too....but she will not ALLOW me to violate my vows. Weird. --------________--------________-------- From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Wed May 7 07:03:27 2003 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 02:03:27 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030507015954.00a09ec0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Tracy MacShane futilely placates: >Uh oh! Please be gentle with me, malfoy - I promise not to do it again. > >....anything but early Madonna, pleease...! Tracy, you are cute when you are naive--as if you had a chance of escape. [I am married to a lawyer, and we Slytherin-spice know these things. If you don't believe me, just ask Rob Warnicke or his wife Cynthia.] Jerrie, occasional Material Girl [on the Ferengi side, anyway], g, d, r --------________--------________-------- From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu Wed May 7 07:05:12 2003 From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (Andrew Lambdin-Abraham) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 01:05:12 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? In-Reply-To: <3EB89DC2.5030408@charrel.net> Message-ID: On Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 12:46 AM, Agnes Charrel-Berthillier wrote: > I thought the problem with Miles was only with his long bones - but I > am too lazy to look it up. I don't think his neck or back bones (or > head!) were ever done. We also know he got his hands done, because in Komarr he reflected that previously he could have broken them to get out of the handcuffs. I get the feeling if pain could be quantified Miles probably is one of the top recipients in the galaxy. Andrew --------________--------________-------- From megj at nwlink.com Wed May 7 06:24:47 2003 From: megj at nwlink.com (Meg Justus) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:24:47 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? References: <49.2e15f96a.2be9aac0@aol.com> Message-ID: <017001c3145e$a9ce5960$42e84b43@meg> Pouncer asks: > So, when if ever did Miles have his neck and back bones "done"? First, Pouncer, I hadn't heard before, but I am so glad that the surgery you had to have apparently went well. I for one have missed you. I always assumed that Miles's neck and back bones (along with his skull and his teeth -- I know we discussed his teeth at one point and that the consensus was inconclusive) were "done" by the calcification treatments in utero (so to speak) and that it was mostly just his long bones that were the issue (what is the definition of a "long bone," anyway? does it include all the arm and leg bones including hands and feet, or just the, well, long ones?). That somehow the calcium got concentrated in the spine and skull, which is why his long bones were so fragile. Now Natalie (although she's a neurologist, isn't she? not much to do with bones -- hi, Natalie, how's the baby?) or somebody else who actually knows more about bones than I do (which wouldn't take much) can post and laugh at me . I don't care -- I'm just looking forward to someone being informative about yet another bit of detail... Miles does have surgical scars running up under his hairline on his neck, though, according to Ekaterin. And, IIRC, surgical scars along his spine in the back. I always thought those were the result of having his spine straightened as opposed to having it strengthened. But then he does say to Nikki (allowing for possible exaggeration) that he's had most of his bones replaced piecemeal. Is this going to turn out like the discussion about the Komarran mirror not being possible as described??? Given that I can't see how someone could get his *skull* dealt with in this fashion? I don't see Miles having had any of his surgery on Beta Colony, mostly because it always seems that he has to come home to have it done (see BOI framing story, etc.). Don't know *why,* though... Megaera who is not and never will be a doctor --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Wed May 7 07:18:55 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 23:18:55 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tucson (was freedom} In-Reply-To: <3EB8050A.9044.335FD90@localhost> References: <3EB8050A.9044.335FD90@localhost> Message-ID: <3EB8A54F.7020608@lvhot.org> jparish at siue.edu wrote: > "It's dry heat." Right. I'll take honest, up-front, muggy, > Midwestern heat any day. Gah. I grew up in honest 90/90 heat/humidity. My problem is that you can't cool off in it. A nice dry furnace heat is much easier to deal with as long as you have water. At little breeze and a spot of shade...ahhhh! Robert --------________--------________-------- From dtilque at nwlink.com Wed May 7 06:55:11 2003 From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:55:11 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: urine (was freedom References: <20030506173203.V28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <07bf01c31437$4d79f1a0$630d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <004b01c3145d$39bce2a0$a5a4adcf@nwlink.com> Paula Lieberman performed an arpeggio on a keyboard and produced: > From: "Azalais Malfoy" tiamat at tsoft.com > >> On Tue, 6 May 2003, Marna Nightingale wrote: >> >>> Well, urine is sterile, basically. I just hate the fact >>> that it makes the area *stink*. >> >> Urine is sterile with respect to bacteria, usually--but it can >> carry viruses, and it can be cultured, and if you are ill, >> stuff will grow. And it smells awful. > > Urine is sterile when urinated, I think, but stuff can grow it > it -afterwards-. Very true. Urine is actually an excellent medium for growing bacteria. It's sterile coming out of the body because the bladder produces certain chemicals that suppress the growth of bacteria. But outside the body, these chemicals will break down and stuff will grow. -- Dan Tilque --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Wed May 7 07:36:29 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 23:36:29 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Clothing customs (OT:) In-Reply-To: <20030506165243.H28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> References: <20030506165243.H28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <3EB8A96D.1050201@lvhot.org> Azalais Malfoy wrote: > The point I was trying to make is that to Eric, dressing as > protective coloration (wearing what's expected of you, so that > your life will be easier) comes very easily. Oh, like wearing a uniform? Oh yeah, I do that. The black and white suit thing for ushering at the Opera House, stuff like that. But I suppose I've been lucky, not having had a job where I had to do the non-uniform suit thing. I don't wear jeans though...just don't like the heavy fabric. For many years my personal uniform was black walking shoes, black slacks, and one of my t-shirts (usually design on black, but not always). Now I really do wear a uniform, my casual wear has branched out a bit (bright silk solids shirts, other interesting colors/fabrics shirts. But mostly I dress for me...if it feels nice, it is much more likely to be purchased. Of course, the level of protective coloration needed in San Francisco is pretty low (0?). Not that I am in any danger of being confused with any of the common dress types. >>When I had long hair, I was stressed every time I had to trust someone >>to give me a trim. I only once let someone, a good friend, cut my hair. At my length it is easy to clip, grab and snip. Robert --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Wed May 7 07:49:55 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 23:49:55 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: <15457-3EB86925-2217@storefull-2373.public.lawson.webtv.net > References: <15457-3EB86925-2217@storefull-2373.public.lawson.webtv.net> Message-ID: <3EB8AC93.1040808@lvhot.org> Jane Hotchkiss wrote: > Gentlemen: which is cooler/ more high temperature-bearable: shorts & > kneesocks or long trousers with short socks? My recollection of the > British-culture-areas is that the kneesocks are wool, defeating (for me) > the whole no-long-trousers bit. Depends. I have a pair of light linen pants I wear instead of the poly/wool uniform pants when it gets really hot here (well, over 80 anyway), usually with thin socks...and they are very cool. Shorts and short socks is cooler than long pants and short socks. I've never worn wooly knee socks with or without shorts, but it sounds awfully hot and scratchy. Robert --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Wed May 7 07:55:33 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 23:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Pounbcer and Melanie In-Reply-To: <200305070248.h472m8r5008854@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Welcome back to both of you, Pouncer, I am glad to hear it will be alright in the end, but keep us updated, yes? Susan in Seattle --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Wed May 7 08:07:11 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 00:07:11 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <3EB8709E.B656C547@redmaplegrove.org> References: <20030507005124.75276.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> <3EB8709E.B656C547@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <3EB8B09F.3070703@lvhot.org> I'm going to have a go at this from a different angle. I can't think of a time when I've seen public nudity that is overtly sexual (er, discounting at paid performances[1]). The vast majority of nudity (in public in SF) appears to be because the person happens to not be wearing clothes rather than to be sexually suggestive. Sexually suggestive public exposure involves clothing (some anyway) either to avoid legal hassles or because a little clothing is sexier than none at all. Of course, someone who wears clothes all the time might have a different perspective on this. YMMV. Robert [1] trust me, I'm boring...mostly opera. --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Wed May 7 08:09:17 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 00:09:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030507015954.00a09ec0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20030507000654.B99105-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Wed, 7 May 2003, Marty L. Adkins wrote: > Tracy MacShane futilely placates: > > >Uh oh! Please be gentle with me, malfoy - I promise not to do it again. > > > >....anything but early Madonna, pleease...! > > Tracy, you are cute when you are naive--as if you had a chance of > escape. [I am married to a lawyer, and we Slytherin-spice know these > things. If you don't believe me, just ask Rob Warnicke or his wife Cynthia.] It's okay, I never did feel much like a virgin. Must have been my lucky star, I was always into the groove. My mother says I'm borderline, but my papa don't preach too much--he's always been true blue. Here's hoping you live to tell the story! ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Wed May 7 08:15:48 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 00:15:48 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom (and clothes) In-Reply-To: <3EB842D4.F300D05F@redmaplegrove.org> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030506152412.01d89d10@slashyalex.com> <3EB842D4.F300D05F@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <3EB8B2A4.4070607@lvhot.org> Marna Nightingale wrote: >> lorraine fletez-brant wrote: >>> I guarantee you if I trot outside starkers right now, >>> someone wearing some sort of official-looking raiment is >>> going to help me become a guest of Sheriff Joe Arpaio's >>> spacious and comfortable accommodations. I probably won't >>> be beaten, but I'll certainly be jailed. > Hmm. In Ottawa, it would vary, which to me is important. This > is sort of why I prefer common law approaches to strictly > principled ones. In San Francisco, similarly (What? Yeah, totally surprising isn't it?) > And this is, I think, a distinction worth noting -- the > difference between applying a single rule to all cases and > having and using reasonable discretion. It's not a difference > between shari'a law and Western law necessarily; lots of places > Western law is applied 'impartially', which can be good or can > mean 'stupidly and unjustly'. > > Real-life examples: > > January, naked or indecent person, on street, downtown, doing > nothing and appearing dazed -- police investigate and render > assistance, ranging from hospital to psych ward as needed. Well, running around in circles in the middle of a busy intersection in the January rain...he was surprised I wouldn't let him on my bus...I didn't stay around to see what kind of attention he attracted...probably assistance. > January, naked people skating on the canal: discreet photos in > local paper, much amusement, jovial commentary from the local > law. Yeah, it does happen every couple years. Various random skinny dipping in fountains, bay, ocean (non-event related)...warning. > June, naked or indecent people in the Market area; stern > warning possibly followed by arrest if absolutely necessary. > > July, HOPE volleyball tournament: indiscreet use of open beach > and inadequate towel as cabana: I didn't see anything, you see > anything? Baker Beach, east end. "Clothing Optional beyond this Point". In general, any beach with limited access and not heavily populated by mundanes is de facto clothing optional (Northern California in general) > Anytime, anywhere: flashin' and harassin' -- yer goin' to jail, > if they catch you. > Pride Day parade: as with Canada Day. And similar events. Bluenoses have been instructed to get elsewhere when complaining to cops. The Bay to Breakers footrace is also notable for partial and full nudity, esp if the weather is good. > And so forth. Robert --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Wed May 7 08:30:08 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 00:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update In-Reply-To: <200305070541.h475fAr5009666@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Kay suggests the concept of somehow marking the ARC's and charging those who sell the copy before the normal sale date with a crime. I can tell you that from my experience in the WTBBL it wouldn't work. Books would come in to the mail room. Eventually they would get onto the desk of the radio station manager. She would then send out an e-mail to all her author interviewers (unless she knew someone had a preference for that author in which case it would go to that one) and ask who wanted to do an interview. If no one wanted to do the interview, it was placed on a shelf behind her desk and she never locked the room. She would try up until a couple of days before the author came to town to talk someone into reading the book and doing the interview. She has been known to send it home with one person only to have it come back and send it home with another. She never writes down who has the books until the y verify they will do an interview. She encourages staff and volunteers to come browse the bookshelf. Then after the day of the interview, she puts the copies on another shelf, and anyone who wants a book to read can pick it up off that shelf and take it home with them, too late for an interview but maybe not too late to read some quotes to hype the book for a program. And still weeks/months before the sell date sometimes. In all truthfulness, Eileen would have been hard put to tell you who had a book unless it was on her schedule, so anyone who walked into that area could have taken it. (In fact, the copy of COC that Lois had signed for me WAS stolen from that room and I never got it back.) And unless the newspapers and television stations are much better at security than the WTBBL was, I can see that about all a serial number would do is implicate the radio station, the television station or the library or the newspaper it was sent to (if the records were accurate) but not who on the staff might have taken the ARC and then sold it. Susan in Seattle --------________--------________-------- From RayLists at quixnet.net Wed May 7 05:25:38 2003 From: RayLists at quixnet.net (Ray Drouillard) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 00:25:38 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom and toplessness References: <20030506205930.65871.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <02c101c3146c$bd444fa0$8a8fd943@ray1000> From: "Joyeuse" > --- CatMtn at aol.com a icrit : > In a message dated 5/5/2003 7:05:23 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > > lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > > > > > Joy L, who would _love_ to be able to go topless in public...the sports bra > > > > > is > > > the best invention in the world. > > > > > > > That's great, but it would be painful for those of us who wear the larger > > sizes! Just imagining driving down a bumpy road hurts! > > Mary > > Actually, I was thinking more about swimming. It's quite comfy for larger > sizes to float in the water. Or free-fall. ObBujold: Miles notices the effects of zero gravity on Ekaterine's physique when they have the first meeting with the quaddies in _DI_. Ray Drouillard --------________--------________-------- From lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov Wed May 7 08:34:42 2003 From: lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov (Jagoda, Lynette K) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 00:34:42 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? Message-ID: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D2072534A@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> As to if Miles' neck was ever done.... In The Vor Game there is a line when Metzov (sp?, books are at home) is trying to strangle Miles, and Cavelio (sp? again) blasts Metzov with a nerve disruptor that goes something like... "the spasm almost snapped his neck even with the reinforced bones" OWSTTE. Lynette <---- not an actual text elf.... just remembering something off the top of her head. --------________--------________-------- From RayLists at quixnet.net Wed May 7 09:30:39 2003 From: RayLists at quixnet.net (Ray Drouillard) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 04:30:39 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Clothing customs (was OT) References: <20030506165243.H28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <034f01c31472$f1b05bc0$8a8fd943@ray1000> From: "Azalais Malfoy" > The point I was trying to make is that to Eric, dressing as > protective coloration (wearing what's expected of you, so that > your life will be easier) comes very easily. ObBujold: (Komarr, page 286) (Aunt Vorthys speaking) "Quite, dear. You look well, if rather Komarran." Ekaterin glanced down at her dun vest and beige trousers. "I've found Komarran dress comfortable, not the least because it lets me blend in." "Someday, I'd love to see you dress to stand out." --------________--------________-------- From theneals at xtra.co.nz Wed May 7 09:21:06 2003 From: theneals at xtra.co.nz (Anita Neal) Date: 07 May 2003 20:21:06 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: the auction and a note on maps OT: In-Reply-To: <20030506.205417.17581.406185@webmail05.lax.untd.com> References: <20030506.205417.17581.406185@webmail05.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <1052295663.992.1.camel@orac> On Wed, 2003-05-07 at 15:53, Kirsten Edwards wrote: > Raye notes that: > Where was a brunet Rohirrim? Since the Rohirrim were based heavily on the Saxons (a notoriously blonde bunch) one suspects the answer is no... > > Anita Neal --------________--------________-------- From theneals at xtra.co.nz Wed May 7 09:30:54 2003 From: theneals at xtra.co.nz (Anita Neal) Date: 07 May 2003 20:30:54 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? In-Reply-To: <3EB89DC2.5030408@charrel.net> References: <49.2e15f96a.2be9aac0@aol.com> <3EB89DC2.5030408@charrel.net> Message-ID: <1052296252.992.9.camel@orac> On Wed, 2003-05-07 at 17:46, Agnes Charrel-Berthillier wrote: > Pouncer at aol.com wrote: > > > > So, when if ever did Miles have his neck and back bones "done"? > > A supplemental support graft or replacement? One at a time or > > a bunch of how many each surgery? > > I thought the problem with Miles was only with his long bones - but I am > too lazy to look it up. I don't think his neck or back bones (or head!) > were ever done. A quote: "There were scars on scars on scars, mostly very fine and surgically straight, in criss-crossing layers running back through time, growing fainter and paler: on his arms, on his hands and fingers, on his neck and running up under his hair, circling his ribcage and paralleling his spine..." (Komarr, near the end of chap 5) So it would seem that most if not all of Miles' skeleton has been done at some point, as has been pointed out in some other posts. -- Anita Neal --------________--------________-------- From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu Wed May 7 10:38:38 2003 From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (Andrew Lambdin-Abraham) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 04:38:38 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030506214629.00b3e8f0@slashyalex.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 11:50 PM, Alexandra Y. Kwan wrote: > At 00:38 05/06/2003, annie mouse wrote: >> I agree! I've never understood why see-through pantyhose is required >> for "business attire." Although they do make legs look thinner, they >> are the MOST uncomfortable, itchy, hot, creations! Especially >> during a 9 block walk to work in the summer or strolling around >> during lunch =(. >> Expensive too (given the replacement rate)! > > A-ha, I know there's a reason why I dress in 'masculine' attire at > work... ;-) Which is perfectly fine with me. Even bypassing all the issues of "What's accepted" and so forth, it usually seems to me that I know a number of people who manage to be sensible, comfortable and appropriate all at the same time, and of all sorts of inclinations. But I've never minded a woman in "masculine" attire. Andrew --------________--------________-------- From mail at stephenthomas.uklinux.net Wed May 7 11:12:48 2003 From: mail at stephenthomas.uklinux.net (Stephen Thomas) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 11:12:48 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EB8DC20.7050705@stephenthomas.uklinux.net> Fatima Raja wrote: > Which segues nicely > into the ObBujold, my personal bete noir -- where are all the Barrayaran > descendants of South Asian immigrants in the UK, or North Africans in > France? Or, for that matter, Tatars? But I should unsegue. Hmm, I wonder what Ivan Vorpatril looks like? We're given plenty of general descriptions (tall, handsome, girl-magnet, etc), but I don't recall any details. The reason I point this out is that his father is Padma Vorpatril, which after subtracting the Vor bit becomes Padma Patril - which to my (frankly uneducated) ear sounds rather Indian Sub-continent to me. Stephen --------________--------________-------- From oppen at mycns.net Wed May 7 11:38:42 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 05:38:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Ivan's Looks Message-ID: <017a01c31484$d504b540$25570043@hppav> ISTR Ivan being described as "darkly handsome." As for the Rohirrim---their _language_ was Mercian Anglo-Saxon, but their _culture_ as described was more like the Ostrogoths, another notoriously blonde bunch. "I'd just like to say that being chosen this month's Miss August is a compliment that I'll remember for as long as I can. I'm a freshman in my fourth year at UCLA, but my ultimate goal is to become a veterinarian because I love children."---Julie Brown, _Because I'm A Blonde_ In the dozens of centuries between now and Miles' time, I could make a case that the immigrant population of Britain would be genetically absorbed; the resulting mixes would be _slightly_ darker, on-the-average, than the present-day UK population, but not really _dark_ dark. Besides, I've met Indians who're not much darker than I am, and I'm NW European by ancestry all the way. The ur-Patril might have come from a group like that. --------________--------________-------- From pnewman at gci.net Wed May 7 12:09:32 2003 From: pnewman at gci.net (Peter Newman) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 03:09:32 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes References: <200305071014.h47AE9r5010883@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EB8E96C.1010009@gci.net> Stephen Thomas wrote > Fatima Raja wrote: >> Which segues nicely >> into the ObBujold, my personal bete noir -- where are all the Barrayaran >> descendants of South Asian immigrants in the UK, or North Africans in >> France? Or, for that matter, Tatars? But I should unsegue. > > Hmm, I wonder what Ivan Vorpatril looks like? We're given plenty of > general descriptions (tall, handsome, girl-magnet, etc), but I don't > recall any details. The reason I point this out is that his father > is Padma Vorpatril, which after subtracting the Vor bit becomes > Padma Patril - which to my (frankly uneducated) ear sounds rather > Indian Sub-continent to me. After a few centuries, even with a relatively modest rate of intermarriage, the European populations from which the Barrayaran firsters derive should be fairly ethnically integrated. Then the time of isolation gave several more centuries in which integration could/would have occurred. We know that ethnic differences still exist but they seem to be linguistic, and not 'racial'. Therefore few, if any, Barrayarans will look 'non-white' but all Barrayarans will be somewhat darker skinned than many modern Europeans. YMMV. -- Did you ever wonder if Lassie had Munchausen by Proxy? Timmy sure seemed to fall down a lot of wells. Peter Newman pnewman at gci.net --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Wed May 7 12:14:14 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 07:14:14 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom and nudity OT: References: <20030506.223908.17581.407191@webmail05.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <3EB8EA7E.C3F59896@redmaplegrove.org> Kirsten Edwards wrote: > Cultural mores that include opportunities for > public nakedness are good and wholesome. > > Cultural mores that preclude opportunities for > public nakedness are bad and oppressive. Heh. Actually and in all seriousness, if you substitute the phrases "are more likely/less likely to have substantial quantities of features we regard as good, such as equality, liberty, respect for rights and concern for security of the person" for 'are good and wholesome/are bad and oppressive", I think it's a pretty darned good, reliable (and easy to view, so to speak) measure. *Precisely because* it is highly charged, 'difficult' behaviour, it's a good indicator of general freedom -- both legally granted and actually achieved. Public nakedness functions as an indicator of the degree to which one is considered to have control over one's sexuality and body. Cultures which accept nakedness well usually -- not always -- accept extreme and unusual forms of modest dress well too. The "not always", as far as I can think of exceptions right now, comes in with lack of religious toleration, and applies where the modest dress is also religious dress. That's one place where it doesn't work. Property rights is probably another. There might or might not be a correlation. Lack of despotic government? I supposed there could be despotic governments that permitted public nakedness. But I doubt they would produce societies relaxed enough to tolerate it well. Equality under the law? You can have equality enshrined in the letter of the law and have it roundly ignored by the courts, the police, and the population. How people actually act, especially marginal or weird people, in public is probably again a better indicator. The relationship is by no means causal in the sense of "public nakedness causes goodness", but any place where a) I am legally permitted to walk down the street with my shirt off, whether I actually do so or not, and b) consider it largely safe to do so, is likely -- not guaranteed, but likely -- to be a pretty good place to be. Not because I yearn to do so every day, but -- consider the sort of underlying assumptions that have to be in place before it can happen... Marna. --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Wed May 7 12:18:18 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 07:18:18 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Comment on marrying young [OT:] References: <188.18da480f.2be16215@aol.com> <00b201c30f64$5ed269a0$eb24d943@ray1000> <5.2.1.1.1.20030502072924.02dfb2a0@mail.iqcisp.com> <004601c3145b$676c0de0$e67a0044@cx744673a> Message-ID: <3EB8EB72.FBCED552@redmaplegrove.org> Tony Rapson wrote: > I've been married 31 years, and finally realized I married the wrong person. OW. (How's that for a useless attempt at a comforting remark?) That is a very hard place to be in, for all concerned. I hope that some change in the situation or some solution not now evident makes itself known to you. So, um, what else is new? You HAVE been away a long time. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From pam at gotcher.us Wed May 7 12:19:57 2003 From: pam at gotcher.us (Pam) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 06:19:57 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Comment on marrying young [OT:] References: <188.18da480f.2be16215@aol.com> <00b201c30f64$5ed269a0$eb24d943@ray1000> <5.2.1.1.1.20030502072924.02dfb2a0@mail.iqcisp.com> <004601c3145b$676c0de0$e67a0044@cx744673a> Message-ID: <086601c3148a$97c37f80$6c3a0144@Laptop> This is what honor looks like in my eyes. Pam Tony writes: Unfortunately, I've finally met the woman I AM in love with. But I will not violate my vows and hurt someone I care about. Even more unfortunately, the other woman loves me too....but she will not ALLOW me to violate my vows. --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Wed May 7 12:20:21 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 07:20:21 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes References: <200305071014.h47AE9r5010883@lists.herald.co.uk> <3EB8E96C.1010009@gci.net> Message-ID: <3EB8EBEC.A4661B4C@redmaplegrove.org> > > Fatima Raja wrote: So, what do we have to do to keep you around a bit more? I'd be willing to start a Monthly Islam Thread if that would help... And I still owe you an article. It's made it as far as Sitting On The Scanner, and I am a pathetic excuse for a friend. :-( Marna. --------________--------________-------- From russellmartens at hotmail.com Wed May 7 13:45:00 2003 From: russellmartens at hotmail.com (Russell Martens) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 07:45:00 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? Message-ID: Pouncer asks: > So, when if ever did Miles have his neck and back bones "done"? Megaera replied: >I always assumed that Miles's neck and back bones (along with his skull and > his teeth -- I know we discussed his teeth at one point and that the >consensus was inconclusive) were "done" by the calcification treatments in > utero (so to speak) and that it was mostly just his long bones that were the >issue (what is the definition of a "long bone," anyway? does it include all > the arm and leg bones including hands and feet, or just the, well, long > ones?). That somehow the calcium got concentrated in the spine and skull, which is why his long bones were so fragile. I thought they were finally replaced at the revival clinic, as most of his chest was missing anyway. I remember a comment that he had even gained a couple of inches out of it. I don't have the text handy to quote it, but I'm sure someone on the list does and will post it shortly in reply. Russell _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Wed May 7 13:07:47 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 13:07:47 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Half-life of Knowledge In-Reply-To: <200305070002.h4702rr5007787@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030507125957.024a14c0@pop.luna.co.uk> Mary CatMtn:- >...had four education courses one summer >all based on totally different premises. And there was I thinking that it was only Economics which had the same exam every year - with different answers. James - an electronic engineer who once gave a lecture on Economics to five hundred Russian CEOs --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Wed May 7 12:36:38 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 12:36:38 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: <200305062140.h46Le3r5006647@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030507120530.00af1d80@pop.luna.co.uk> Pilot Padget enquires:- >...many churches have special rooms for >nursing mothers, but why should they be >exiled if the kids aren't being disruptive? Because, however much we may regret it, they scandalise (some) members of the congregation who are too set in their ways to accept that a fellow member may have different social norms and still be a good person. Upsetting them is not a good way to seek to change this. James - who is uncertain about what IS a good way to change this --------________--------________-------- From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu Wed May 7 14:41:25 2003 From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (Andrew Lambdin-Abraham) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 08:41:25 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Half-life of Knowledge In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030507125957.024a14c0@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <98A21E16-8091-11D7-BF27-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu> On Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 07:07 AM, James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: > And there was I thinking that it was only > Economics which had the same exam every > year - with different answers. Now if only we could get them to team teach so that either answer would be right...[1] > James - an electronic engineer who once gave > a lecture on Economics to five hundred Russian > CEOs Which reminds me of a quote from class: "My ex-Communist wife (not to be confused with my Communist ex-wife[2]) got heavily into the market, as all ex-Communists do." - Dr. James K Galbraith[3], discussing the recent tech stock crash. Andrew [1] Or with my luck, both wrong... [2] I'm pretty sure he said this, but I didn't write it in my notes... [3] Son of John Kenneth Galbraith. Which leads to all sorts of interesting things, like entering college with 10,000 citations already made to the works of Galbraith, J.K. --------________--------________-------- From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu Wed May 7 14:43:02 2003 From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (Andrew Lambdin-Abraham) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 08:43:02 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030507120530.00af1d80@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 06:36 AM, James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: > James - who is uncertain about what IS a > good way to change this I think Lois mentioned in some part of Dreamweaver's Dilemma that the primary agent of scientific progress is time. Namely, old scientists with the out of date ideas retire and die, and young ones with the new ones replace them. Who then fossilize themselves, etc. We'll see how that applies to the rest of society, and to people who dislike waiting. Andrew --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Wed May 7 15:19:25 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 08:19:25 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Half-life of Knowledge References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030507125957.024a14c0@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <006101c314a3$ab4ed180$6df3f5ce@puter> James M. BRYANT observed: >> Mary CatMtn:- >>...had four education courses one summer all based on totally different premises. << > And there was I thinking that it was only Economics which had the same exam every year - with different answers. < Ouch, ouch, ouch! I am laughing and cringing at the same time, here. Having just weathered the first major Major crisis with Guido ("I don't *wanna* be a Music Ed major anymore! I'd rather go to culinary school! But my advisors won't let me out! " and etc.), I don't even want to imagine what'll happen when she has to start taking the actual *education* courses. I clearly remember my mother's bogglement at the scattershot of education theory when she was in college back in the 60's--and her horror upon discovering, after over seven years of plugging away at her degree part-time (raising five kids alone, at the time), that she *hated* teaching, and promptly changed her major! But *that* is a story I think I'll keep to myself. No sense precipitating a crisis; I'm sure we'll have others, all in good time, without my help. Ack. Oh, by the way, we went from begging to be sprung from the gulag of the music school, to happily enthusing "Hey, Mom, guess what? I'm gonna double-major next year--trumpet *and* horn, they just okayed it, and they're gonna up the scholarship to cover the lessons, and...." in about two weeks' time. She passed her Assessment Boards (the cause of The Crisis), in other words, and the resulting boost in confidence put her back on track. Whew! ~ Kay, wondering who's going to have the rougher time of it for the next three years, her or me... --------________--------________-------- From Joy.Luckabaugh at lexisnexis.com Wed May 7 15:20:15 2003 From: Joy.Luckabaugh at lexisnexis.com (Luckabaugh, Joy H. (LNG-BET)) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:20:15 -0400 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: freedom Message-ID: <38A60BEBEF60234CB599A1FD4BE466E5815608@LNXBETEXCH00.lexisne xis.com> > On Tue, 6 May 2003, Padget, Scott R wrote: > > Church, for instance--yes, I know many churches have special > > rooms for nursing mothers, but why should they be exiled if the > > kids aren't being disruptive? Azalais Malfoy wrote: > Isn't it a rather intimate act? I don't mean intimate in the > sexual sense, not at all, but...I have the impression that it's > not quite the same as sticking a bottle in a kid's mouth. Do > tell me if I'm wrong. That's one of those things that vary very much by individual. I am a very modest person in public. But when nursing my son, I found a lot of time that feeding a hungry (crying!) baby was more important than eliminating the chance that someone, somehow, might see part of my breast. I also learned very quickly how to nurse modestly in public--the right kind of clothing is key, as is the right positioning of infant. Most people will just see a woman holding a baby, unless they happen to be glancing at the right angle, at the right split-second of time. It's better in places where you can face a little away from the public at large, and in non-silent areas with dim lighting and tables (some restaurants are great places, but not the more-than-3-star variety of course), but I got so I could do it practically anywhere. I did find it more awkward when the baby was young enough not to go out in public much anyway (trouble latching on) and when the baby was old enough to be called a toddler (when switching sides from minute to minute and playing with the shirt was the game of the day), but fortunately toddlers can be given other things to eat or drink. The one place, actually I didn't nurse was in sanctuary at church. I tried it but my son was too noisy a nurser to get away with it discreetly in a place that was often-enough very silent. There was a nice nursing room in the nursery, though, but soon enough I got in the habit of feeding immediately before and after church, which cut out the need altogether. However, there are other nursing mothers who would *never* nurse in public (no matter how modestly) or who are even upset or revolted by those who do. The first doesn't bother me but the latter does, very much. If nursing is an intimate act...well, any intimate act you do 8 or more times a day in varying circumstances becomes less private over time, by necessity; and for the baby it's food, so there's only so long you can put them off. I had one of those babies who wouldn't accept formula in mom's presence or absence (and pumping's a pain; I did it at work because that was the only way, but I wasn't going to do it with my baby right *there with me*), so didn't have (or want) the inconvenience of having to deal with bottles when out and about with my child. Joy Luckabaugh--who notes that now there is another Joy L. on the list--congratulations, btw!-- and is rather impressed, because it is rare enough for me to meet another Joy, nonetheless one who shares my initials! Joy.Luckabaugh at lexisnexis.com --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed May 7 15:45:14 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 09:45:14 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Clothing customs (OT:) In-Reply-To: <3EB8A96D.1050201@lvhot.org> References: <20030506165243.H28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <20030506165243.H28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030507093851.01db7580@pop.east.cox.net> At 01:36 05/07/2003, Robert Parks wrote: >Of course, the level of protective coloration needed in San Francisco is >pretty low (0?). Not that I am in any danger of being confused with any >of the common dress types. I might stand out in SF wearing my dark suits(I own two, one summer weight), but I only wear them to church and funerals. My usual wear is a pair of khaki work pants, a colored pocket tee, a flannel shirt in cool weather, and some kind of sport shirt in summer, and I suppose I wouldn't be quite so noticeable that way. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed May 7 15:49:55 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 09:49:55 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? In-Reply-To: <3EB89DC2.5030408@charrel.net> References: <49.2e15f96a.2be9aac0@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030507094810.01dab550@pop.east.cox.net> At 00:46 05/07/2003, Agnes Charrel-Berthillier wrote: >Pouncer at aol.com wrote: >> >>So, when if ever did Miles have his neck and back bones "done"? >>A supplemental support graft or replacement? One at a time or >>a bunch of how many each surgery? > >I thought the problem with Miles was only with his long bones - but I am >too lazy to look it up. I don't think his neck or back bones (or head!) >were ever done. Wasn't Miles's back straightened out a bit while he was being resuscitated in _Memory_, gaining him an inch or so of height? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From meyer at securecomputing.com Wed May 7 16:22:53 2003 From: meyer at securecomputing.com (Paul Meyer) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 10:22:53 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Questing Paladin Quick Report Message-ID: <200305071522.KAA09561@komarr.sctc.com> I picked up the read-and-sign copy from Scott Monday evening and went off to revisit Chalion. Handed it off to occasional list lurker Reb and her husband Dave yesterday. Reb is done. Dave is, ummm, not working a lot today. One more occasional lurker, Don, gets it tomorrow so I can give it back to Scott Friday to start circulating. Reb's basic comment: "What a ride!" Mine is that Memory is not longer Lois' best book. We're ___really___ going to want to be careful with spoiler protection once we start talking plot, characters, theology (yup), etc. Dave suggested we call this read-and-sign copy "Questing Paladin". Thoughts? Paul M PS. Scott will be getting donations for the charities from all of us. PPS. We've pulled a couple of other people in. I think Drew called Uncle Hugo's to put in a preorder for Paladin when he saw the galley. --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Wed May 7 16:41:26 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:41:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/7 @ 10:30AM CDT Message-ID: <20030507154126.GE16183@fireopal.org> See the current info web page at - it also has the list of who's asked to be included in the read, sign & pass along copy - http://www.fireopal.org/~sraun/lmb_pos_auction.html The current high bids are: bhosler at partners.org $650 5/6, 12:35PM rparks at lvhot.org $400 5/7, 8:06AM carosue at centurytel.net $350 5/6, 9:07AM Reminder: the auction is closing in just under 24 hours, at 10:00AM CDT tomorrow, 8 May 2003. I will be using the 'received' timestamp as the final authority for whether or not a bid made it in on time. There are currently forty-nine people signed up for the read, sign & pass-along copy. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From Robert at WarnickeLittler.com Wed May 7 16:50:23 2003 From: Robert at WarnickeLittler.com (Robert Warnicke) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 08:50:23 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom In-Reply-To: <200305070248.h472m8r5008854@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <002701c314b0$5fa05ad0$6e01a8c0@D6FL1B21> Lil' Horned Hopper wrote > Heh. You win. OTOH, maybe she's just eccentric, like her favorite son??? > Oh, well now that's a whole bunch of other issues. I really don't think we need to go there... :) -------- Robert W --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Wed May 7 16:48:09 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 10:48:09 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: The third way In-Reply-To: <20030506.210716.17581.406374@webmail05.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030507104621.02df95c0@mail.iqcisp.com> At 04:07 AM 5/7/2003 +0000, Kirsten Edwards wrote: >[snipping the rest of the post] Raye notes: > > >"Some say that there is one unpardonable sin (which has to do with >blasphemy, not sex), and some say that the first group is misreading the >scriptures and that there is no unpardonable sin." > >There's a third bunch that argue that the only unpardonable sin >is deciding that you cannot be pardoned. > >Kirsten (who is not making this up :-) Edwards Yeah. Sometimes phrased as a statement that the only unpardonable sin is despair. Now THAT is a real p*sser when one is simultaneously a seriously practicing Episcopalian and an unmedicated chronic depressive. Louann, feeling much better now. --------________--------________-------- From christine at forber.net Wed May 7 17:27:41 2003 From: christine at forber.net (Christine Forber) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 12:27:41 -0400 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/7 @ 10:30AM CDT In-Reply-To: <20030507154126.GE16183@fireopal.org> Message-ID: At 10:41 AM 5/7/2003 -0500, Scott Raun wrote: > >There are currently forty-nine people signed up for the read, sign & >pass-along copy. Scott, Could you use that list to track where the book is at any time? If the list was in order of who was to get the book when, and if each person checked in with your (or your designate), you could then make some indication of who has the book then. This way, all of us could see how it is moving around the world, and those of us on the list would have some idea of when to expect it ourselves. Just a thought. Christine --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Wed May 7 17:30:59 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 11:30:59 -0500 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/7 @ 10:30AM CDT In-Reply-To: References: <20030507154126.GE16183@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <20030507163059.GF16183@fireopal.org> On Wed, May 07, 2003 at 12:27:41PM -0400, Christine Forber wrote: > At 10:41 AM 5/7/2003 -0500, Scott Raun wrote: > >There are currently forty-nine people signed up for the read, sign & > >pass-along copy. > > Could you use that list to track where the book is at any time? If the list > was in order of who was to get the book when, and if each person checked in > with your (or your designate), you could then make some indication of who > has the book then. This way, all of us could see how it is moving around the > world, and those of us on the list would have some idea of when to expect it > ourselves. Actually, I'm planning something along that line. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From scott.r.padget at boeing.com Wed May 7 17:38:08 2003 From: scott.r.padget at boeing.com (Padget, Scott R) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 11:38:08 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Marrying Marna and Etc. [OT:] Message-ID: Stale, but I hope amusing.... Marna: > after which those who have made > an acceptable showing are presented with a set of Pride rings and > permitted thereafter to use the initials F.O.D. after their names. Somehow, *I* got the idea that there was some sort of material inducement for the corruptee, as well, similar to the way banks used to give out toasters to new customers. I was looking forward to a food processor. But NO, nothing of the sort. I mean, where's *my* incentive? What's in it for *me*? I should get *something* for... Oh. Wait. Right. Nevermind.... :-) :-) :-) Later, Marna explicates F. O. D.: > Friend Of Dorothy, an old euphemism. Oh, good. I *really* didn't want the mental images associated with "Foreign Object Damage" in this context. Uh-oh. Sorry 'bout that. In response to Little Alex's exceedingly sensible proposal: > we'll see if you like me once you've met me and found out about > all my obnoxious traits. The rumors of which have been greatly exaggerated, I assure you. But then, I'm known to be a wee bit prejudiced. Marna goes on to say: > I may not be the only candidate for your hand around here, you know... And Joy points out the corollary: > And Alexandra is not the only candidate for yours! ;-) We are the Amoeba. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. :-) Andrew: > To think I just spent almost all of last night archive diving reading > up on my proposal to the Pilot[1] Okay, I feel so...simpleminded. Am I the *only* person in existence who can't multitask while engaged in late-night IMing? > How was I to know reliably that I was Too Late? Well, as my recent gnashing of teeth about the purity test pointed out, there are still openings for the "Corruption of the Pilot" job. But based on your comments (rather considerably better-natured than mine on the topic), I'd have to say that at this point I'd most likely be the one doing the corrupting rather than the other way 'round. Or other Amoeboids corrupting the both of us. There's always that. Then Lynette (of *course*) :-) :-) dredges up Andrew's Proposal from list history. But most of the list doesn't know The Rest Of The Story.... See, Andrew chose *me* rather than Marna, so as to keep himself safe from assimilation by the Amoeba. During the period in which Marna and I were together...but closeted. :-D We just about busted ourselves laughing, offlist. And poor Andrew didn't find out what he'd done for several more months.... :-D (I suspect this is one reason why Lynette, who *was* in on it, saved the messages....) Marna: > this Amoeba is > starting to make Make Love Not War look like a practicable approach to > World Domination... Works for me! Pilot Padget--subversive deep-cover agent in vanilla white-bread suburbia --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Wed May 7 17:35:28 2003 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 12:35:28 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Quote for Lois and the listserv Message-ID: <3EB935CF.BDE37285@erols.com> Regarding the writing of books, this came up on the Lord Peter listserv: "Writing a book is an adventure. To begin with, it is a toy and an amusement; then it becomes a mistress, and then it becomes a master, and then a tyrant. The last phase is that just as you are about to be reconciled to your servitude, you kill the monster, and fling him out to the public." (Sir Winston Churchill) --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Wed May 7 17:58:50 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 12:58:50 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom['s just another word for, nothin' left to wear] References: <3EB89554.C9A90D3@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <169401c314b9$f0bbf160$630d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marna Nightingale" > Let me relieve you all of your present earworms in the only way > possible. > Grrrrr..... Let us now the Nexus visit And do all those things illicit Ride a haut chair on Kline hiss at Spitting, not the place to be! --------________--------________-------- From matya13 at yahoo.com Wed May 7 18:25:55 2003 From: matya13 at yahoo.com (Amy Sikes) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: Missouri listees? Message-ID: <20030507172555.68128.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com> Howdy! It seems that I'll be in Columbia, Missouri 19-22 June. Any listees around the area wanna try to get together? I will be in the throes of another gathering (it's a weekend-long BBQ for my EverQuest guild), but I'd certainly make an effort to get away and meet some fellow listees. Let me know off-list, please! matya13 at yahoo.com. I might even reply to you in a timely manner! Cheers, Amy --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 7 18:28:51 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 13:28:51 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2350 - 21 msgs Message-ID: In a message dated 5/7/2003 12:41:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Umm--I'm not really sure of it, but wasn't the pre-Captain Cook Hawaiian government a total monarchy with a very powerful aristocracy? And they tolerated nudity quite well. Mary > Lack of despotic government? I supposed there could be despotic > governments that permitted public nakedness. But I doubt they would > produce societies relaxed enough to tolerate it well. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 7 18:35:15 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 13:35:15 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Public nudity Message-ID: <15e.1f7a49ec.2bea9dd3@aol.com> In a message dated 5/7/2003 12:41:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Wasn't Tahiti before westerners arrived there pretty much a theocracy, with human sacrifice, etc? And the Aztecs? It seems to me that a lot of the fuss about covering the body historically developed in colder climates, or climates where the sun is punishing. Kind of like Shaw's comment about thinking "the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature" being the mark of a barbarian. I don't think that harsh religions, savage rulers, decadent, abusive aristocracies, etc., are limited to people who wear a lot of clothes. Mary > The relationship is by no means causal in the sense of "public > nakedness causes goodness", but any place where a) I am legally > permitted to walk down the street with my shirt off, whether I > actually do so or not, and b) consider it largely safe to do so, is > likely -- not guaranteed, but likely -- to be a pretty good place to > be. > --------________--------________-------- From zafaran at sff.net Wed May 7 18:37:03 2003 From: zafaran at sff.net (Patricia A. Swan) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 13:37:03 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: <3EB8AC93.1040808@lvhot.org> References: <15457-3EB86925-2217@storefull-2373.public.lawson.webtv.net > <15457-3EB86925-2217@storefull-2373.public.lawson.webtv.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030507131701.0438e008@pop3.sff.net> At 11:49 PM 5/6/2003 -0700, Robert Parks wrote: I've never worn wooly knee socks with or without shorts, but it sounds awfully hot and scratchy. >Robert Depends on the wool and how it's processed. The right wool in hot, sticky weather is wonderfully comfortable. I wear socks from a company that uses a processing called "smartwool". They are machine washable, soft, wick moisture away from my feet, allow air circulation, and are an all-round delight. I was originally introduced to them by the river guides out in Nantahala Gorge--Smartwool socks and rivershoes (sandals by Teva and other similar manufacturers) are a combination I lived in winter and summer there after, and it's quite comfortable and functional in the snow as well. People swear by fleece socks. I don't, I tend to swear at them. SmartWool I swear *by*. Until I wound up at home all the time and my back went south far enough that I no longer have the flexibility to don socks, I had worn SmartWool socks exclusively, year round, for about four years--and still was wearing my original pairs of socks since they'd not worn out yet, and that's one of the first things I look forward to being able to go back to if I can get enough flexibility back. And all future shoe purchases are going to be sized to accommodate them--they are fluffy enough that they add about a half-size, or require that the straps on the Burkenstocks be let out by about two notches over barefoot. Pat in North Carolina -- * Patricia A. Swan <*> zafaran at dnet.net Ebay ID: zafaranswan * * Six Swans Design http://members.fortunecity.com/zafaran * --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Wed May 7 18:39:12 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:39:12 -0700 Subject: [LMB] alternatives to ARCS, was POS Galley Auction Update - 5/6 @ 9:40PM CDT In-Reply-To: <3EB89220.77CA3E7A@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <00f501c314bf$92a67f40$31432904@earthlink.net> > Send 'em out as e-books. In, yeah, a limited format, to avoid Other > Problems. > > No more overcrowded reviewers' apartments, no more ARCs on eBay, and > probably cheaper to boot. > > Marna, suspecting that there might be a reason why that wouldn't work > either, but what the hey.... They do make limited-time-only computer CDs nowadays. I saw one at fellow-listie Ma Foxti's house - IIRC, it was for reviewing the promo information for the then-upcoming Bond movie. It was sealed up airtight, and once you opened it, you had only a few days before it was unusable. Given the time it takes to read a book, I suspect they'd need a format that would last a bit longer. But it would keep it from being sold later. I wonder if Baen's considered it. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 7 18:41:05 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 13:41:05 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Lectures Message-ID: In a message dated 5/7/2003 12:41:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Sounds like my husband, who gave a talk on genetic engineering law to a bunch of doctors. I asked him what he knew about the subject, and he said something about genetics being whether you had brown eyes or blue eyes--I hastily dug out my bioethics book and gave him a cram course. Mary > James - an electronic engineer who once gave > a lecture on Economics to five hundred Russian > CEOs > --------________--------________-------- From nancy at dendarii.com Wed May 7 18:43:25 2003 From: nancy at dendarii.com (Nancy L. Barber) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 13:43:25 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: listees in Troy, NY? In-Reply-To: <20030507172555.68128.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030507172555.68128.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Amy's note reminds me to ask: are there any listees in Troy, NY? I'll be there next week for a business trip, arriving Sunday, leaving Thursday. If anyone wants to try to get together, send me a note off-list... Nancy Barber --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Wed May 7 18:47:42 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:47:42 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030507120530.00af1d80@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <00f701c314c0$c27db340$31432904@earthlink.net> > Pilot Padget enquires:- >>...many churches have special rooms for >>nursing mothers, but why should they be >>exiled if the kids aren't being disruptive? > > Because, however much we may regret it, > they scandalise (some) members of the > congregation who are too set in their ways > to accept that a fellow member may have > different social norms and still be a good > person. Upsetting them is not a good way > to seek to change this. > > James - who is uncertain about what IS a > good way to change this I can see that different people have very different feelings about this. >From inside my own head, within my own views of the world, I tend to find it mindboggling that taking such good care of a child would be viewed as upsetting by people who espouse 'family values'. But I suppose that just shows I don't get their views of the world. I'm uncertain of good ways to change this myself, except the shining the candle method, in attempting to provide a good example where it comes up in my life. The last time I was actually in a church was for the performances of Mozart's Requiem on 9/11/2002, at the Presbyterian church (IIRC St. Peter's by the Sea) down on the Rancho Palos Verdes peninsula. The church was very full, we actually ended up in what would be normally the choir's area, and I made sure to stay near a door. When Maggie needed to nurse, I quietly did so, and no one seemed to mind. When she started to fuss, I immediately scooped her up and took her out, so as not to interrupt the music. (I was quite pleased to find that the church's nursing room had gliders, *nursing pillows*, and a television piping in the music from the sanctuary.) Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Wed May 7 18:47:42 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:47:42 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom and nudity OT: In-Reply-To: <3EB8EA7E.C3F59896@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <00f801c314c0$c2d19fa0$31432904@earthlink.net> Marna wrote, re: public nudity > Actually and in all seriousness, if you substitute the phrases "are > more likely/less likely to have substantial quantities of features we > regard as good, such as equality, liberty, respect for rights and > concern for security of the person" for 'are good and wholesome/are > bad and oppressive", I think it's a pretty darned good, reliable (and > easy to view, so to speak) measure. > > *Precisely because* it is highly charged, 'difficult' behaviour, it's > a good indicator of general freedom -- both legally granted and > actually achieved. > > Public nakedness functions as an indicator of the degree to which one > is considered to have control over one's sexuality and body.[snip] This reminded me immediately of the part in Heinlein's _The Number of the Beast_ [1] where the protagonists are surveying alternate worlds as possible places to settle, and one of the primary criteria was whether or not sunny warm beaches had nude people enjoying the weather. They also considered it a good indicator of the freedom of the society, and whether or not they'd be comfortable there. (albeit not the only reason they wanted it) Laura Gallagher [1]agh, I think I've technically typed that wrong - there's supposed to be a dash in the title or something, per Heinlein, but I don't recall exactly where it goes. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 7 18:51:09 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 13:51:09 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Auctions of Galleys in general Message-ID: <1d2.92a31a8.2beaa18d@aol.com> In a message dated 5/7/2003 1:42:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Frankly, I think you've got a great idea. Hope somebody acts on it. Mary > Is this do-able? Practical? Silly as heck? To take what Lois > has done here semi-privately, and formalize it, making it > house-wide to Baen. Would the auction itself be > publicity-worthy? Add to the buzz? ("Bujold Fans Set New Auction > Record!") Considering that we're a relatively small group here, > and specialized to a single author, the totals up so far are > danged impressive. How much more money for good causes could be > raised if the auction was being promoted on Baen's website--wider > nets catching more fish, and all..... --------________--------________-------- From mamandel at Filker.Org Wed May 7 18:54:44 2003 From: mamandel at Filker.Org (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 13:54:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Amazon.com meets Impsec In-Reply-To: <20030502190947.92453.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 May 2003, Lois Aleta Fundis wrote: #So there I was, browsing Amazon.com because it was a #slow day at the reference desk, and came across this #service I'd never seen there before: #http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/handle-generic-form/002-2561644-3396809 # #Which says, "The comparison grid lives to serve." I'm not sure I get it, and I know I'm not seeing what you saw. My amazon ID is linked to my wife's, and the top of this page says, for me, Hello, Rene Mandel. We have recommendations for you. (If you're not Rene Mandel, click here.) Or *is* that what you mean? All it means is that Amazon put a cookie on my computer that tells it that this connection is associated with that account. -- Mark A. Mandel --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 7 18:59:19 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 13:59:19 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: House uniforms Message-ID: <1d9.91f85ae.2beaa377@aol.com> In a message dated 5/7/2003 1:42:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: I wonder how the Cetagandans would react to some of the vor uniforms from the guys who had to pick their house colors later on in the choosing? Wasn't one described in ACC as scarlet and chartreuse, or something similar, upon which Mark reflects that he would look like a traffic signal? Mary > Putting on clothes that you are not allowed to wear by local custom (see > Mia Maz above) would certainly count as "taking on airs". House blacks, > however, are always correct. > --------________--------________-------- From mamandel at Filker.Org Wed May 7 19:06:13 2003 From: mamandel at Filker.Org (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 14:06:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Oddball LMB Reference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 May 2003, Mandos wrote: #Different people work in different ways. I know a number of people who like #to trace the story along a map and it helps them keep track of what is going #on, other hate to see maps in books and never use them. Hear, hear! #My theory is that if a map is there, people who want them have them, those #who don't want them do not have to refer to it. Both positions win. Yup. People with good sense of direction and location -- as with other "senses" -- often have trouble understanding how anyone can NOT see what's so clear to them. "But it's obvious! Who needs a map/chart/table/explanation?" No it isn't; I do. -- Mark M., known to his imaginary fellow tribesmen as "Pathloser" --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 7 19:05:37 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 14:05:37 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT:Love and marriage Message-ID: <12f.297ee0b3.2beaa4f1@aol.com> In a message dated 5/7/2003 6:15:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: I don't know your situation, but it seems to me that "love" and "being in love" are different in that "love" lasts, but "being in love" kind of cuts in and out over the years. In the 30 years I had with my husband, there were times when being "in love" varied up or down, but the "love" was always there to keep the marriage going until the next "in love" period rolled around. Mary > I know it's way late to respond to this thread, but I've been off-line for a > long tome, and I'm now trying to catch up. I've been married 31 years, and > finally realized I married the wrong person. I love her...but not properly > in love. Unfortunately, I've finally met the woman I AM in love with. But I > will not violate my vows and hurt someone I care about. --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Wed May 7 19:07:17 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 18:07:17 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom and nudity OT: Message-ID: <20030507.110751.587.281208@webmail03.lax.untd.com> Marna wrote: "Public nakedness functions as an indicator of the degree to which one is considered to have control over one's sexuality and body." Hmm... By whom. And why? I snipped the rest (re: property rights, reasonable government, and equality under the law) because it made little sense. The connections between these things and "culture w/enjoys public nudity" or between a lack of property rights, despotic gov't, etc. and "culture w/discourages public nudity" don't seem to, er, gel. If you want to try again (maybe off list?) I'd be more than willing to read it*) "...but any place where a) I am legally permitted to walk down the street with my shirt off, whether I actually do so or not, and b) consider it largely safe to do so, is likely -- not guaranteed, but likely -- to be a pretty good place to be." Only (b), my dear, is relevant. And it has more to do with the above description of "backbones of a civil society" (there is one other ingredient wh. I left off--no desire to torque any one's shorts!**) Because I can write: "there are many places where I am not legally permitted to walk down the street w/my shirt off" but wh. are still pretty good places to be. For my money, the jury is still out on whether San Francisco, USA is one of those places. (I'm only partly joking, I'm afraid-- just got back from there--saw Robert P., though he didn't see me) But I wasn't joking when I wrote my that precis--or even trying to be sarcastic--only to point out that you were making a summary judgement of which is the most desirable culture to have, and that you wanted the law of the land to reinforce it. Very human. Very natural. Quite often, A Good Thing.*** Kirsten (more awake now, but still missing the Diet Cokes) *that is, the point may've been good even if the particular argument was confusing **as in "yes, I appreciate "necc. but not sufficient" :-) N.B. Full disclosure--don't care one way or another about nakedness. It's extremely unnatural (check out OED roots of the word :-)so I don't expect it to ever catch on--but what types of partial nudities are considered mannerly and appropriate are for the people of any given society to decide. In a good federal model (ala the US, or better yet, Switzerland) that should work out quite nicely.) ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 7 19:09:15 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 14:09:15 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Miles' vertebrae Message-ID: <1de.874b5bc.2beaa5cb@aol.com> In a message dated 5/7/2003 6:15:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: I don't know where I got the idea, but somewhere in one of the books I think I remember that Miles had some sort of internal bracing system on his spine, rods inserted beside the vertebrae or something. Anybody else have a better idea where this came from (or did it come from my own imagination?) Mary > Miles does have surgical scars running up under his hairline on his neck, > though, according to Ekaterin. And, IIRC, surgical scars along his spine > in > the back. I always thought those were the result of having his spine > straightened as opposed to having it strengthened. But then he does say to > Nikki (allowing for possible exaggeration) that he's had most of his bones > replaced piecemeal. > --------________--------________-------- From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Wed May 7 19:11:36 2003 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 14:11:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Half-life of Knowledge Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030507140739.00a844f0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Guido aces her Assessment Boards, & Kay C. breathes again. Way to go, Guido! Yay, mom! Jerrie, queuing up an extra-loud spiff "Drumline" number, lots of hot-air balloons, professorial & political egos, and other things that go "boom" satisfactorily--and Barrayaranly--loud --------________--------________-------- From mamandel at Filker.Org Wed May 7 19:16:18 2003 From: mamandel at Filker.Org (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 14:16:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] I'm still here... Message-ID: ... but work is real REAL these days. I've just logged on long enough to chainsaw 678 list messages down to 80, mostly by the process of sorting by Subject, then saying "that thread's OT:, cut it" or "Ack, I want to read that thread but I just don't have time, cut it." Hoping to be back in action some day... -- Mark M. --------________--------________-------- From nlbarber at mac.com Wed May 7 20:09:01 2003 From: nlbarber at mac.com (Nancy L. Barber) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 15:09:01 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Paladin discussion and spoilers In-Reply-To: <200305071522.KAA09561@komarr.sctc.com> References: <200305071522.KAA09561@komarr.sctc.com> Message-ID: At 10:22 AM -0500 5/7/03, Paul Meyer wrote: > >We're ___really___ going to want to be careful >with spoiler protection once we >start talking plot, characters, theology (yup), etc. Should we revive the CoC-Bujold list for spoilered discussion, perhaps? Especially as this book seems to be very sensitive to spoilers? It's on Yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CoC-bujold/ Nancy Barber --------________--------________-------- From dtilque at nwlink.com Wed May 7 20:12:42 2003 From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 12:12:42 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? References: <49.2e15f96a.2be9aac0@aol.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030507094810.01dab550@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <002101c314cc$b2241960$8da4adcf@nwlink.com> Peter H. Granzeau performed an arpeggio on a keyboard and produced: > At 00:46 05/07/2003, Agnes Charrel-Berthillier wrote: >> Pouncer at aol.com wrote: >>> >>> So, when if ever did Miles have his neck and back bones >>> "done"? A supplemental support graft or replacement? One at >>> a time or a bunch of how many each surgery? >> >> I thought the problem with Miles was only with his long bones >> - but I am too lazy to look it up. I don't think his neck or >> back bones (or head!) were ever done. > > Wasn't Miles's back straightened out a bit while he was being > resuscitated in _Memory_, gaining him an inch or so of height? Yes, but it was only a centimeter or two. Less than an inch. It's important to Miles, but he's disappointed that no one else seems to notice. As far as his other bones, he apparently got his hands done at the same time as his arms. Which probably means he got his feet done along ith his legs. But there's 200-some bones in the human body, so he may have many more to go. I also wonder about Mark. Obviously his spine must have been artificially curved to match Miles. Did he have it restraightened, or is he still running around with a sway back? I don't think there's any textev about this, other than his general reluctance to have operations on his body. -- Dan Tilque --------________--------________-------- From Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com Wed May 7 21:13:26 2003 From: Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com (Tom Vinson) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 15:13:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Rohirrim (was Ivan's Looks) Message-ID: Eric Oppen wrote: > As for the Rohirrim---their _language_ was Mercian Anglo-Saxon In one of the appendices to LotR Tolkien says he used English+Anglo Saxon as a _translation_ of Westron+Rohirric(?). He then gives a couple of examples from the speech of Rohan, and they are totally different from Anglo Saxon. Of course some of his AS examples, such as _ho'lbytla_, are ones he coined. Tom --------________--------________-------- From scott.r.padget at boeing.com Wed May 7 21:32:29 2003 From: scott.r.padget at boeing.com (Padget, Scott R) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 15:32:29 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: MIP (Men in Pink) Message-ID: Marna, after an anecdote about a boxer who wore pink: > Of course, this basically supports Scott's point... notice how this is > the second anecdote linking considerable talent for the use of force > and the reputation thereof with being allowed to wear whatever you > want? Well, yes, *I* had certainly noticed that. Thanks for pointing it out to everyone else for me! Pilot Padget--gratified that even the counterexamples make his point for him --------________--------________-------- From mamandel at unagi.cis.upenn.edu Wed May 7 21:40:03 2003 From: mamandel at unagi.cis.upenn.edu (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 16:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] a map for Kerry, and other Chalion readers In-Reply-To: <000901c311a2$997d3680$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: Great! Presumed key: star in a circle: national capital Zagosur - Ibra Cardegoss - Chalion Visping - Borasnen? all the mainland Roknari princedoms? dot in a circle : provincial capital Taryoon - Baocia Maradi - ?? plain circle : other city or town solid square : fortress (size proportional to size? importance?) Gotorget Oby Perifors May I humbly suggest adding a key to the map page? -- Mark A. Mandel --------________--------________-------- From scott.r.padget at boeing.com Wed May 7 21:40:08 2003 From: scott.r.padget at boeing.com (Padget, Scott R) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 15:40:08 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Renfaires [OT:] (was Freedom) Message-ID: Louann: > > I was at a renaissance fair last weekend, which in Texas with 80% humidity > > is like a broad-based study in heatstroke. Clothes that look sharp, and > > that were hugely practical for northern Europe during the little ice age, > > can have the wearer keeling over by noon down here. Malfoy: > Heh. I used to do that at Faires in Kentucky during the worst of > the summer heat. Wimps. Yer all wimps. *I* used to wear the full suit, with extra layers built in for protection, and my head encased in a metal box. And then engage in strenuous aerobic exertions for hours at a time, during the heat of the day, in the direct Texas sun. And *I* never had any problems. Of course, keeping me hydrated was a full-time job with which I was not myself entrusted, and we all know what I think of the (ick) *cold*. Pilot Padget--whose persona was from London, and knows the old saw about Englishmen and the noonday sun --------________--------________-------- From scott.r.padget at boeing.com Wed May 7 21:43:48 2003 From: scott.r.padget at boeing.com (Padget, Scott R) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 15:43:48 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom Message-ID: > Have you ever been in Montreal in July? Very fashionable, in good taste, > but revealing. Also appropriate given how hot AND humid it is about then. No I haven't (alas)--the only East-of-the-rockies Canadian cities I've been to are Halifax and Ottawa, with Toronto on the agenda for August. But I'd guess it's not dissimilar to some of the things I see (typically younger, and often conventionally attractive) women wearing here on the Gulf Coast in summer. (I also note that young, attractive, *heavy* Hispanic--but not Caucasian--women also tend to dress this way. Yay, Them! The Cult Of Anorexia is *not* universal!) My issue was not with the women's dress code, rather the men's. And specifically that of the US Southeast, with its brutal climate and very conservative attitude. > In high-tech workplaces here, it's perfectly appropriate for men to wear > shorts in summer to work. Normally they're baggy. Shorts are specifically forbidden by my company's "casual dress guidelines" (which is quite defintely stated as Not A Dress Code, though I can't see any practical difference). And Boeing is considered a rather casual and liberal employer in this industry and area (neckties are nearly unheard of, you see). Baggy shorts in the Houston area, at least, are by definition extremely casual. With most of the "fun" styles being exclusively the realm of the young (and generally considered also a sign of rebellion or other "undesirable" characteristics by the Grownups). > And I seem to remember the British Raj/Caribbean style of dress consisting > of Bermuda shorts and kneesocks. Well, yes, but that doesn't have much to do with early 21st century North American cultural norms, which I believe is what this topic has drifted to, no? Pilot Padget--off on his "men's clothing" rant again --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Wed May 7 21:49:25 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 16:49:25 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: MIP (Men in Pink) References: Message-ID: <3EB9714F.A2B9A172@redmaplegrove.org> "Padget, Scott R" wrote: > > ... notice how this is > > the second anecdote linking considerable talent for the use of force > > and the reputation thereof with being allowed to wear whatever you > > want? > > Well, yes, *I* had certainly noticed that. Thanks for pointing it out > to everyone else for me! OTOH, I do have to ask: wasn't that you I saw at the Houston Airport last year in glitter and a sarong? I don't recall anythiing worse than being giggled at... and that was from IAN! Marna. --------________--------________-------- From meyer at securecomputing.com Wed May 7 22:25:11 2003 From: meyer at securecomputing.com (Paul Meyer) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 16:25:11 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Paladin discussion and spoilers In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 07 May 2003 21:16:09 BST." <200305072016.h47KG9r5013272@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <200305072125.QAA09851@komarr.sctc.com> Nancy suggests: >Should we revive the CoC-Bujold list for spoilered >discussion, perhaps? Especially as this book seems to >be very sensitive to spoilers? It's on Yahoo: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CoC-bujold/ Good idea. I'll put up a very short summary of my major impressions over there. Paul M --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Wed May 7 22:25:39 2003 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 16:25:39 -0500 Subject: [LMB] a map for Kerry, and other Chalion readers Message-ID: <002b01c314df$398cd7e0$0500000a@oemcomputer> Mark A. Mandel mamandel at unagi.cis.upenn.edu Great! Presumed key: star in a circle: national capital Zagosur - Ibra Cardegoss - Chalion Visping - Borasnen? all the mainland Roknari princedoms? dot in a circle : provincial capital Taryoon - Baocia Maradi - ?? plain circle : other city or town solid square : fortress (size proportional to size? importance?) Gotorget Oby Perifors Lois: "Porifors". May I humbly suggest adding a key to the map page? -- Mark A. Mandel There will be a key on the second, larger-scale map, which will do for both. Assuming both get in. Mike B., do you still have that second map scan? (Did I send it to you?) I suppose it could go up on the website now. There should be a link to the scan of the cover art of PoS on the Chalion index, too, come to think of it. I may have a preview of the jacket copy, too, one of these days, if it gets approved. It's a tiny bit spoilerish (or at least, my revised version was much less so than the first draft), but one must give the new browsing customers *some* hint of what they're getting, I suppose. I should note, for anyone who gets a look at the back of the bound galleys, the proposed signing tour is merely a placeholder copy of the one I had the last time. The actual tour has not been arranged yet, and could end up looking quite different. Ta, L. --------________--------________-------- From pam at gotcher.us Wed May 7 23:01:43 2003 From: pam at gotcher.us (Pam) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 17:01:43 -0500 Subject: [LMB] a map for Kerry, and other Chalion readers References: <002b01c314df$398cd7e0$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <09af01c314e4$3f2febb0$6c3a0144@Laptop> Atlanta, Atlanta, Atlanta or New Orleans, New Orleans, New Orleans. Pam (praying) ----- Original Message ----- From: Lois McMaster Bujold I should note, for anyone who gets a look at the back of the bound galleys, the proposed signing tour is merely a placeholder copy of the one I had the last time. The actual tour has not been arranged yet, and could end up looking quite different. --------________--------________-------- From scott.r.padget at boeing.com Wed May 7 23:13:42 2003 From: scott.r.padget at boeing.com (Padget, Scott R) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 17:13:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: MIP (Men in Pink) Message-ID: Marna: > OTOH, I do have to ask: wasn't that you I saw at the Houston Airport > last year in glitter and a sarong? Yes. But I was deep in The Marna Zone, where anything is possible. :-) And whose idea was it in the first place, I ask? More seriously, we were in a place where any reaction less severe than assault was unimportant, really, due to the essentially casual and transitory nature of *any* interaction in such a place. The things than can happen in a workplace, or a social venue in which one intends to operate for an extended period, are much more subtle but just as real. (Raises, promotions, social influence and/or acceptance, etc. these are quiet, delayed, but long-lasting and broadly-based consequences.) Being dressed similarly in Galveston (and acting openly poly), in front of the Elissa crew, seemed like a far more questionable idea to me than did the airport escapade--though I did not consider this until after we were already *in* Galveston. There doesn't seem to have been any actual repercussions, though, for which I am thankful. > I don't recall anythiing worse than being giggled at... and that was > from IAN! Well, it *was* a US airport, post-9/11. Whatever one's personal views regarding the military and/or armed police, I'm thinking people (even potentially violent people) are *highly* unlikely to assault a wierdo in a location with lots of open space and numerous twitchy security people with military-grade weaponry. Something I actually *did* consider at the time. As I did the fact that we'd have: The combined Marna and Pixie Don't Mess With Us Auras. The Pilot/Tygerr Psychic-Sedative Field. The Snoe Thousand-Yard Stare. One very cute and innocent-looking child. *And*, after we had met up with Our Boy, we'd add a nigh-seven-foot, broad- shouldered hunk of bone and muscle to provide a purely-physical counterpart to the various nonverbal messages. And the mere fact that we were a) a group, and b) included women (and a child), made us wierdly-dressed boyfolk safer. I suspect a lone male (or a male "couple") dressed similarly, in a less-heavily- guarded place than an international airport, would not be as safe. Of course, I'm socially timid, so I may well have skewed beliefs about the likelihood of Bad Things happening to nonconformists. But the fact is, in Texas at least, they *do* happen at times. I'd like to be wrong in my usual timidity, really I would. But I'd just as soon *avoid* my tender flesh being used to prove me right, either. Pilot Padget--yes, it *is* possible to be male, wear a sarong and body glitter in public, and yet be socially timid --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Thu May 8 00:03:30 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 16:03:30 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Oddball LMB Reference Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 14:06:13 -0400 (EDT) Mark A. Mandel looked up from WORK long enough to write: >-- Mark M., known to his imaginary fellow tribesmen as "Pathloser"< Ah, a fellow tribesman, or would that be fellow traveler... _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --------________--------________-------- From RosinaRowantree at aol.com Thu May 8 00:05:01 2003 From: RosinaRowantree at aol.com (RosinaRowantree at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 19:05:01 EDT Subject: [LMB] LMB] OT: Freedom Message-ID: <151.1f0b2954.2beaeb1d@aol.com> Pilot Padget enquired:- "...many churches have special rooms for nursing mothers, but why should they be exiled if the kids aren't being disruptive?" James responded: "Because, however much we may regret it, they scandalise (some) members of the congregation who are too set in their ways to accept that a fellow member may have different social norms and still be a good person. Upsetting them is not a good way to seek to change this." And Joy added: "However, there are other nursing mothers who would *never* nurse in public (no matter how modestly) or who are even upset or revolted by those who do. The first doesn't bother me but the latter does, very much." I am becoming concerned at the assumption that if you object to a woman breastfeeding in public, you must be "set in your ways", and you should change your ways to adjust to people with "different social norms". Perhaps someone who thinks it is perfectly acceptable to breastfeed in church is "set in their ways" and should change their thinking. I can already hear the protesters - breastfeeding is natural, it is essential for the health of the baby, why should someone be exiled from society just because they wish to perform a natural bodily function. Sex is natural, making love and babies is a glorious thing to do ... but not in church, or on the train or anywhere where people might be offended. Would the mothers who breastfeed in restaurants or churches also change nappies at the table or in the pew? Being offended is not a sin, and as list members we try not to cause offence - the pizza call is a reminder that someone, somewhere might be offended, so we hasten to drop the subject, even though that conflicts with the idea of freedom of expression. Shouldn't we extend the same courtesy to those who are, or might be offended by breastfeeding? Rosina --------________--------________-------- From lucy at chubb.wattle.id.au Thu May 8 00:21:40 2003 From: lucy at chubb.wattle.id.au (Lucy Chubb) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 09:21:40 +1000 Subject: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? In-Reply-To: <017001c3145e$a9ce5960$42e84b43@meg> References: <49.2e15f96a.2be9aac0@aol.com> <017001c3145e$a9ce5960$42e84b43@meg> Message-ID: <20030507232140.GK29594@chubb.wattle.id.au> On Tue, May 06, 2003 at 10:24:47PM -0700, Meg Justus wrote: > Is this going to turn out like the discussion about the Komarran mirror not > being possible as described??? Given that I can't see how someone could get > his *skull* dealt with in this fashion? My daughter had surgery on her skull which essentially involved taking the whole front half off, restructuring it, and screwing it back, so I don't see that it would necessarily be very difficult in Miles' day (particularly with further advances in surgery and materials). The main dangers and difficulties for my daughter, if I remember rightly, were blood loss, risk of infection, and swelling. I understand that it isn't even regarded as particularly dangerous surgery, even though it's fairly major. One of the key things is that it doesn't involve going into the brain. My daughter recovered very well, in almost record time. She was out of hospital in five days (and learn't to climb out of her cot a week after that -- with an enormous thump -- ouch!). LucyC --------________--------________-------- From jmjm at sprint.ca Thu May 8 00:29:30 2003 From: jmjm at sprint.ca (Doug Mitchell) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 19:29:30 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Willing to part with the audio books? Message-ID: <052a01c314f0$82faffe0$42776395@9ep9u> I am new to this list and new to LMB. As I am an avid listener of books on tape it was only natural that my first experience with Miles be in audio format. I am partway through _The Warrior's Apprentice_ and I am having a good time. I would like to continue listening to the series but purchasing each audio from Readers Chair would be too expensive; especially in Canadian dollars. These audio books are unavailable in my library system. I am hoping this list might point me in a direction of used Vorkosigan audio books. Any suggestions? Thanks for your help. Doug --------________--------________-------- From lucy at chubb.wattle.id.au Thu May 8 00:28:18 2003 From: lucy at chubb.wattle.id.au (Lucy Chubb) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 09:28:18 +1000 Subject: [LMB] [OT]Re: Half-life of knowledge In-Reply-To: <025901c3142b$2e8e8ff0$d18dd70c@MainComputer> References: <141.10e78bef.2be9a0f6@aol.com> <025901c3142b$2e8e8ff0$d18dd70c@MainComputer> Message-ID: <20030507232818.GL29594@chubb.wattle.id.au> On Tue, May 06, 2003 at 06:56:59PM -0500, Countryboy wrote: > > One of my favorite biology professors used to warn us frequently not to > get > > too attached to any particular interpretation of data, because "the > half-life > > of scientific information is about 5 years," meaning that half of what you > > think you know will be obsolete in that time. It's probably even more > true > > now, with the information explosion. > > Tell me about it. I take care of the computers that run the refinery (so to > speak). The half-life for that stuff is getting to be 2-3 years. (As any > IT person can tell you). We're hard pressed to keep up with where we're > going much less where we want to be. I'm doing work with the Linux operating system kernel and there have been something like 20 new versions of the development kernel released since I started my current work way less than a year ago. If I tried to keep up I'd never get anything done. Just as well the stable version I run on my other machines doesn't change anywhere near that fast.... LucyC --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Thu May 8 01:27:23 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 17:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Nursing Mothers In-Reply-To: <200305071640.h47GeBr5012328@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Pilot Padget enquires:- >...many churches have special rooms for nursing mothers, but why >should they be exiled if the kids aren't being disruptive? I attended a UCC congregation in Olympia. They had a sound proof room at the back of the balcony of the main sanctuary. The fuss wasn't about seeing women's breasts while nursing. It was about crying babies. Women who brought infants that began to cry were escorted up there by the ushers, where they could see and hear the service but the congregation couldn't hear the babies wailing. As soon as the child was quiet again, they were ushered back to a seat at the back of the sanctuary - for a quick second or third exit if needed. Many theatres do the same thing, and the standard is the noise level, not the breast being shown. Susan in Seattle --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Thu May 8 01:27:58 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 17:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Nursing Mothers oops In-Reply-To: <200305071640.h47GeBr5012328@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: My apologies for forgetting the OT: marker. Susan in Seattle --------________--------________-------- From raja at fas.harvard.edu Thu May 8 01:46:30 2003 From: raja at fas.harvard.edu (Fatima Raja) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 20:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] The elusive Barrayaran desi (was Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes) In-Reply-To: <200305071640.h47Ge3r5012322@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: I've changed the subject line as, wonder of wonders, I'm posting on-topic. Peter Newman wrote: > After a few centuries, even with a relatively modest rate of > intermarriage, the European populations from which the Barrayaran > firsters derive should be fairly ethnically integrated. Then the time of > isolation gave several more centuries in which integration could/would > have occurred. We know that ethnic differences still exist but they seem > to be linguistic, and not 'racial'. Therefore few, if any, Barrayarans > will look 'non-white' but all Barrayarans will be somewhat darker > skinned than many modern Europeans. YMMV. Well, I'd been wondering why there are no Vorkhans or Vorabduls running around, really. I hadn't thought about Vorpatril, but I suppose it could be a(n) (mutated?) Indian name, though Padma (and I'm sure Divya or Tora will correct me if I'm wrong) is a woman's name, surely? I agree, of course, that by that time it is unlikely that there would be actual visible differences, but I imagine the names would stick around a bit. And the curry, of course. Hard to get the curry out. And then, Marna Nightingale wrote: > So, what do we have to do to keep you around a bit more? I'd be willing > to start a Monthly Islam Thread if that would help... It's just a matter of everyone else saying everything that needs to be said so much better than I could. Except that every time this topic rolls around I feel compelled to point out that there is at least *one* (ignorant and not especially devout) Muslim on-list. > And I still owe you an article. It's made it as far as Sitting On The > Scanner, and I am a pathetic excuse for a friend. :-( Ah, no hurries. Don't worry about it. Or rather -- warn me before you send it, since I'll be graduating soon, and going back to the old 3 bits an hour internet connection in Pakistan. Fatima Raja --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Thu May 8 02:33:45 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 19:33:45 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Half-life of Knowledge References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030507140739.00a844f0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <008801c31501$ddfe7fa0$94f3f5ce@puter> Jerrie enthuses with great enthusiasm : > Guido aces her Assessment Boards, & Kay C. breathes again. < You've no idea. She was a -wreck- for two weeks before the actual jury, as she had all the preliminary "packet" (or portfolio, or whatever it was) to prepare and turn in, in advance. The assessment consisted of the written work--theory analysis; the history of the performed piece, including the background of its time-frame; and a paper on the composer--and then the performance, plus lecturing and taking questions from the panel. By the time she had to do all this "live" for the professors/judges, she'd had a chance to run through the lecture and Q&A portions in class, for practice. So at that point, she truly wasn't in nearly so much a state of nerves. Thoroughly euphoric when it was over, though! This school is *serious* about its music program, no lie. There was some talk about letting the Freshmen off the hook for assessment, but that's probably not going to happen. If you're going to have high standards, then you're going to have to have these weeding-out processes. Of the 40 or so declared music majors in this year's freshman class, they've trimmed it down to about 10 that are still in it; few have actually left school, but a whopping portion have switched majors, or gone to "general studies," sort of a holding-pattern that they can remain in until their junior year. I understand this was probably the biggest "triage" they'll do; if you survive your freshman year, and pass that first assessment, you're likely to make it the rest of the way through. > Way to go, Guido! Yay, mom! < Hey, *she* did all the sweating. Er, wait. Maybe not. Naw, guess not.... > Jerrie, queuing up an extra-loud spiff "Drumline" number, lots of hot-air balloons, professorial & political egos, and other things that go "boom" satisfactorily--and Barrayaranly--loud < You're a sweetie. Thanks! ~ Kay --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Thu May 8 03:11:10 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 21:11:10 -0500 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/7 @ 9:10pM CDT Message-ID: <20030508021110.GB21872@fireopal.org> See the current info web page at - it also has the list of who's asked to be included in the read, sign & pass along copy - http://www.fireopal.org/~sraun/lmb_pos_auction.html The current high bids are: bhosler at partners.org $650 5/6, 12:35PM rparks at lvhot.org $400 5/7, 8:06AM carosue at centurytel.net $350 5/6, 9:07AM Reminder: the auction is closing in just under 24 hours, at 10:00AM CDT tomorrow, 8 May 2003. I will be using the 'received' timestamp as the final authority for whether or not a bid made it in on time. I may or may not get another e-mail update to the list before auction close - however, I will update the web page (at least for bidders) before 8AM and about 9:30AM. There are currently fifty-five people signed up for the read, sign & pass-along copy. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Thu May 8 03:12:18 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 21:12:18 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: POS Galley Auction Update - 5/7 @ 9:10pM CDT In-Reply-To: <20030508021110.GB21872@fireopal.org> References: <20030508021110.GB21872@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <20030508021218.GC21872@fireopal.org> On Wed, May 07, 2003 at 09:11:10PM -0500, sraun wrote: > Reminder: the auction is closing in just under 24 hours, at 10:00AM Duh - the above line should have been changed to "in just under 13 hours". > CDT tomorrow, 8 May 2003. I will be using the 'received' timestamp as > the final authority for whether or not a bid made it in on time. I > may or may not get another e-mail update to the list before auction > close - however, I will update the web page (at least for bidders) > before 8AM and about 9:30AM. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From wks at worldpath.net Thu May 8 03:18:47 2003 From: wks at worldpath.net (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 22:18:47 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Boston listee to Worldcon? Message-ID: <3EB9BE87.2080806@worldpath.net> While I cannot to the the worldcon this year, if there is anyone in the Boston Area DRIVING, I believe that I can donate a few remaining bottles of my fermented maple mead (diluted to beer alcohol content) to distribute the listees at some gathering. I fear that shipping might either work well or be expensive. ALthough if anyone has a better idea.... email me. BIll --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu May 8 03:38:57 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 21:38:57 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? In-Reply-To: <002101c314cc$b2241960$8da4adcf@nwlink.com> References: <49.2e15f96a.2be9aac0@aol.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030507094810.01dab550@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030507213425.01db8ba0@pop.east.cox.net> At 14:12 05/07/2003, Dan Tilque wrote: > > > > Wasn't Miles's back straightened out a bit while he was being > > resuscitated in _Memory_, gaining him an inch or so of height? > >Yes, but it was only a centimeter or two. Less than an inch. It's >important to Miles, but he's disappointed that no one else seems >to notice. > >As far as his other bones, he apparently got his hands done at >the same time as his arms. Which probably means he got his feet >done along ith his legs. But there's 200-some bones in the human >body, so he may have many more to go. > >I also wonder about Mark. Obviously his spine must have been >artificially curved to match Miles. Did he have it >restraightened, or is he still running around with a sway back? I >don't think there's any textev about this, other than his general >reluctance to have operations on his body. Mark had undergone, as information on Miles became available, everything that Miles had undergone, at least through he time of BiA. Was that where he broke free, or did that happen later, at the start of _Memory_? Either way, he has had no further procedures, so would not have had the spine straightening, and may well be those two centimeters shorter than Miles (as well as heavier, nowadays). And he may well outlive Miles by a number of years, as the life-shortening occurrences from DI also did not happen to him. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From sbanker at purdue.edu Thu May 8 03:57:32 2003 From: sbanker at purdue.edu (Samantha Banker) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 21:57:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030507213425.01db8ba0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <000001c3150d$926b9cb0$91c9d380@BANKER> > And he [Mark] may well outlive Miles by a number of years, as the life-< > > shortening occurrences from DI also did not happen to him. Forgive my lack of memory, but what life shortening occurrences? ---Samantha --------________--------________-------- From kknight at epix.net Thu May 8 04:06:01 2003 From: kknight at epix.net (Katrina Knight) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 23:06:01 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Willing to part with the audio books? In-Reply-To: <052a01c314f0$82faffe0$42776395@9ep9u> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030507225909.032326a0@in.epix.net> At 07:29 PM Wednesday 05/07/03 Doug Mitchell wrote: >As I am an avid listener of books on >tape it was only natural that my first experience with Miles be in >audio >format. I am partway through _The Warrior's Apprentice_ and I am >having a >good time. I would like to continue listening to the series but >purchasing >each audio from Readers Chair would be too expensive; especially in >Canadian >dollars. These audio books are unavailable in my library system. I >am hoping >this list might point me in a direction of used Vorkosigan audio >books. Any >suggestions? Some used bookstores sell audio books. Have you checked your local stores? Half.com has an audio books category, so that would be one place to start looking. Also, if you local library doesn't have them, have you checked to see if they do interlibrary loans and might be able to get them that way? -- Katrina Knight kknight at epix.net --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Thu May 8 04:09:48 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 23:09:48 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Oddball LMB Reference (hey Mark!) References: Message-ID: <172201c3150f$49812900$630d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A. Mandel" [Note -- Mark-teasing below... not a Personal Attack! -- ] > On Fri, 2 May 2003, Mandos wrote: > > #Different people work in different ways. I know a number of people who like > #to trace the story along a map and it helps them keep track of what is going > #on, other hate to see maps in books and never use them. > > Hear, hear! > > #My theory is that if a map is there, people who want them have them, those > #who don't want them do not have to refer to it. Both positions win. > Agreed here, too. Plus, I like to see what the interpretation of the world is, and what the terrain is, and the artistry in the map.... map artists like Elissa Mitchell (I think that's the name I've seen) who seems to do a lot of the maps in Tor Books, for example, to me seem not to be getting enough recognition and visibility. > Yup. People with good sense of direction and location -- as with other > "senses" -- often have trouble understanding how anyone can NOT see what's There's visualization, and visualization. Some people get very clear pictures in the their minds of Miles, Aral, Cordelia, Mark, Ivan, Gregor, etc., others get more general pictures, and some people don't have much of any. But, the same person who might not be operating on visual clues, might have a very strong attunement to the perception of someone's voice -- soprano, alto, tenor (some friends can't stand tenors!), bariton, bass, etc., and accent. Others are tone deaf.... hmmm..... see below.... > so clear to them. "But it's obvious! Who needs a > map/chart/table/explanation?" No it isn't; I do. > > -- Mark M., known to his imaginary fellow tribesmen as "Pathloser" a) No WONDER you became a linguist -- to be able to ask directions in as many languages as possible!! b) I wonder if you could navigate based on accents, though -- that is, go by audio, rather than visual clues as to where you are? c) Don't tell Aliera.... if Barrayarans are scared of -Cordelia-.... --------________--------________-------- From megj at nwlink.com Thu May 8 05:00:43 2003 From: megj at nwlink.com (Meg Justus) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 21:00:43 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Lucy Chubb? Message-ID: <001201c31516$67d2fc10$36d04b43@meg> Could you please email me off list? I tried to send you an email using your address from the list email, and it came back undeliverable. Thanks! Megaera --- "Knowledge might not be power, but ignorance was definitely weakness, and so was poverty. Time and past time to stop assuming she was the child, and everyone else the grownups." Ekaterin in Komarr, by Lois McMaster Bujold --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Thu May 8 06:58:47 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 01:58:47 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Renfaires [OT:] (was Freedom) References: Message-ID: <002a01c31526$e48e7df0$610d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Padget, Scott R" > > Wimps. Yer all wimps. *I* used to wear the full suit, with extra layers built in > for protection, and my head encased in a metal box. And then engage in > strenuous aerobic exertions for hours at a time, during the heat of the day, > in the direct Texas sun. And *I* never had any problems. > > Of course, keeping me hydrated was a full-time job with which I was not > myself entrusted, and we all know what I think of the (ick) *cold*. > > Pilot Padget--whose persona was from London, and knows the old saw about > Englishmen and the noonday sun In the Nexus stars there are certain scars to see When the citizens in defeat drop their weapons off and retreat It's one of the rules that the greatest fools obey, Because the weapons are much too deadly And one must avoid their read'ly lethality The natives grieve the the Barrayarans leave their huts, Because they're obviously, definitely nuts! Mad dogs and Barryararns go fight in the midday sun, The Komarrans they don4t care to, the Betans wouldn4t dare to, Athosians and Kline stationers sleep firmly from twelve to one But Barrayarans detest-a siesta. In the Beta Colony they have have domes oh so homey to protect you from the glare. On Escobar, there are hats like plates which the Barrayan won't wear. At twelve noon the natives swoon and no further fights are fought,, But mad dogs and Barrayans go fight in the midday sun. But Mad Dogs and Barrayarans go fight in in the midday, Fight in the midday, Fight in the miday sun! -- Noel Vorcoward --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Thu May 8 07:20:50 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 23:20:50 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Clothing customs (OT:) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030507093851.01db7580@pop.east.cox.net> References: <20030506165243.H28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <20030506165243.H28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030507093851.01db7580@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <3EB9F742.80801@lvhot.org> Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > At 01:36 05/07/2003, Robert Parks wrote: >> Of course, the level of protective coloration needed in San Francisco >> is pretty low (0?). Not that I am in any danger of being confused >> with any of the common dress types. > I might stand out in SF wearing my dark suits(I own two, one summer > weight), but I only wear them to church and funerals. My usual wear is > a pair of khaki work pants, a colored pocket tee, a flannel shirt in > cool weather, and some kind of sport shirt in summer, and I suppose I > wouldn't be quite so noticeable that way. We have suits here...both native and exotic (tourists and conventioneers), so that wouldn't be a problem. Just so long as they aren't confusable with the mormon missionaries. Robert --------________--------________-------- From dtilque at nwlink.com Thu May 8 06:56:48 2003 From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 22:56:48 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? References: <49.2e15f96a.2be9aac0@aol.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030507094810.01dab550@pop.east.cox.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030507213425.01db8ba0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <005101c31526$9e2a03c0$2fa4adcf@nwlink.com> Peter H. Granzeau performed an arpeggio on a keyboard and produced: > At 14:12 05/07/2003, Dan Tilque wrote: >> >> I also wonder about Mark. Obviously his spine must have been >> artificially curved to match Miles. Did he have it >> restraightened, or is he still running around with a sway >> back? I don't think there's any textev about this, other than >> his general reluctance to have operations on his body. > > Mark had undergone, as information on Miles became available, > everything that Miles had undergone, at least through he time > of BiA. Was that where he broke free, or did that happen > later, at the start of _Memory_? You have it right, it was at the end of BiA that he broke free. At the time, Miles had synthetic leg bones, but not arm bones. So Mark was at least spared the pain of unnecessary surgery on his arms. >Either way, he has had no > further procedures, so would not have had the spine > straightening, and may well be those two centimeters shorter > than Miles (as well as heavier, nowadays). Well, I was thinking he may have had it done on Beta while a student. We don't have any textev on that, except that there's something somewhere about him being reluctant to undergo more surgery. > > And he may well outlive Miles by a number of years, as the > life-shortening occurrences from DI also did not happen to him. And that may be modified by whatever the Duronas come up with in the way of life extension treatments. -- Dan Tilque --------________--------________-------- From dtilque at nwlink.com Thu May 8 07:06:55 2003 From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 23:06:55 -0700 Subject: [LMB] a map for Kerry, and other Chalion readers References: <002b01c314df$398cd7e0$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <005901c31528$078f1ac0$2fa4adcf@nwlink.com> I just looked at the map again and something occurred to me. Shouldn't Gotorget be on the other side of the border? After all, it was lost to the Roknari when dy Jironal sold it. Yet the map shows it still in Chalion. -- Dan Tilque --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Thu May 8 07:51:16 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 02:51:16 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Boston listee to Worldcon? [on-topic now] References: <3EB9BE87.2080806@worldpath.net> Message-ID: <00a201c3152e$39690a50$610d4b43@LAPTOP> I expect to be driving there, however, I was sort of thinking of going up to Canada a bit earlier than the convention and doing some touristing first.... [I live northwest of Boston, halfway between 128 and 495]. Shipping gets into customs issues. NESFA is figuring out the best way to get NESFA Press books, including the various NESFA editions of Lois' work, up to the convention (also, to get art show hangings up there, too...). One thing for sure is that there has to be a highly accurate list of what's going up there from NESFA.... if there are dozens of people here who are thinking about buying the books up there, please let me know, so I can provide that as input to the persons who determine how many copies go up there! [The hardcover of Ethan of Athos may be available by then. http://www.nesfa.org/press/UpcomingBooks.html lists the status of projects in progress and relatively recently published books] -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Stewart" > While I cannot to the the worldcon this year, if there is anyone in the > Boston Area DRIVING, I believe that I can donate a few remaining bottles > of my fermented maple mead (diluted to beer alcohol content) to > distribute the listees at some gathering. > > I fear that shipping might either work well or be expensive. > > ALthough if anyone has a better idea.... > email me. --------________--------________-------- From litalex at slashyalex.com Thu May 8 02:28:57 2003 From: litalex at slashyalex.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:28:57 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Inter-Listie Fun & History (was Athosian Religion) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030507182649.00b415c0@slashyalex.com> Hello, At 09:36 05/05/2003, Andrew Lambdin-Abraham wrote: >To think I just spent almost all of last night archive diving reading up >on my proposal to the Pilot[1], and then this comes along... I LOL, to old friends and reminiscence . >who initiated, and I'm not sure we got a final ruling. At any point, it's >not hard to win the prize, unless I was operating at some handicap I >wasn't aware of. ;-D >Assuming you get past the multiple choice test (unless you're doing the >poly option), I think you're a pretty safe bet. Well, of course I'm at least *trying* the poly option (I'm of the theory that I should try everything once, twice if it doesn't kill me). little Alex --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Thu May 8 08:23:10 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 00:23:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: I've been trying to be good (Re: OT: Nudity) In-Reply-To: <200305080214.h482ETr5014498@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: I've been trying to be good and not stuff the list too much with OT: Stuff, but it is hard not to tell the story of being a Girl Scout Counselor in a back packing unit (1975) with the girl who wiped certain anatomical portions with a handful of nettles 12 miles into the trail to the Enchanted Chalet. No, not those portions, THOSE portions. UV rays break it down faster. So we have two sleeping bags and a tarp hung to protect her from the trail we know about, as we expose certain portions of her anatomy to the sun to get it to the point where she could walk again because we DON'T have enough lotion to cover that much area in our packs. We didn't know about the other trail, where what we were doing was seen and we got a visit from a Park Ranger to check out the 'Lesbian Porno film-making' that wasn't. After convincing her it was truly a case of innovative first aid, we got a mule-back ride for the affected girl, but if you think I had a hard time convincing the ranger, you have no idea what I went through trying to talk to her parents. Betan parents would have laughed at such a thing. Jackson's Wholers would have charged for the outtakes. Komarrans would have started shipping lots of anti-uticaric lotion in ASAP (New Market! New Market!) Athosians would have been trying to banish all news of the events from their airwaves. Barrayarans? Shudder. Chalionese would have hung me for degrading a maiden so. So what would the rest of the Vorkosiverse/Chalioniverse cultures have done with/to us? at }->- :} Tinne ;} Laughter Heals :D -<-{ at --------________--------________-------- From joasia at fandom.art.pl Thu May 8 08:27:09 2003 From: joasia at fandom.art.pl (Jo'Asia) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 09:27:09 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? In-Reply-To: <000001c3150d$926b9cb0$91c9d380@BANKER> References: <000001c3150d$926b9cb0$91c9d380@BANKER> Message-ID: <375767250.20030508092709@galaxy.uci.agh.edu.pl> My comconsole brought me this letter from Samantha Banker: >> And he [Mark] may well outlive Miles by a number of years, as the > life-< > > shortening occurrences from DI also did not happen to him. > Forgive my lack of memory, but what life shortening occurrences? 1. A close encounter with a neddle grenade, cryofreeze and revival (Mirror Dance) 2. Infection with the Cetagandan bioweapon (Diplomatic Immunity) Jo'Asia -- __.-=-. joasia at fandom.art.pl Joanna Slupek .-=-.__ --<()> http://bujold.fantastyka.net/ http://esensja.pl/ <()>-- .__.'| ...................................................... |'.__. I'm from SF-F and I'm okay, I read all night and write all day (Robson) --------________--------________-------- From dtilque at nwlink.com Thu May 8 08:23:04 2003 From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 00:23:04 -0700 Subject: [LMB] The elusive Barrayaran desi (was Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes) References: Message-ID: <009101c31532$ab5f3f40$2fa4adcf@nwlink.com> Fatima Raja performed an arpeggio on a keyboard and produced: > Well, I'd been wondering why there are no Vorkhans or > Vorabduls running around, really. I hadn't thought about > Vorpatril, but I suppose it could be a(n) (mutated?) Indian > name, though Padma (and I'm sure Divya or Tora will correct me > if I'm wrong) is a woman's name, surely? I agree, of course, > that by that time it is unlikely that there would be actual > visible differences, but I imagine the names would stick > around a bit. Maybe, but wouldn't those names be a subset of the Englishmen? There don't seem to be many distinctly English names among Barrayarans. Vorsmythe is the only one that comes to mind immediately. Checking my list of Counts, there's also a Vorlightly. There's others that could be English, but not distictively so. Among Barrayarans in general, there's far more distinctively Russian, French and Greek names than English. We have yet to run across a Barrayaran named Johnson, Brown, Adams, Thompson, etc. Also no Percivals or Nigels. In addition, there are a number of names that are not English, Russian, French or Greek. Koudelka is Czech, Szabo is Hungarian and Vorgustafson is Scandinavian. This all indicates to me that English people were much less than one fourth of the original settlers. > And the curry, of course. Hard to get the curry > out. I'm not a cook, but I believe curry requires certain spices that grow only in tropical climates, which are in short supply in the North Continent. The absence of curry in the Barrayaran diet is not remarkable. -- Dan Tilque --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Thu May 8 10:08:18 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 10:08:18 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Oddball LMB Reference In-Reply-To: <200305080214.h482EPr5014495@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030508100439.00afd928@pop.luna.co.uk> Lorraine greets Mark "Pathloser" Mandel:- >Ah, a fellow tribesman, or would that >be fellow traveler... No, it would not be. "Traveler" implies progress towards a destination. The word you seek is "wanderer". James --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Thu May 8 10:59:40 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 10:59:40 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: <200305080214.h482EPr5014495@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030508101020.00b27e20@pop.luna.co.uk> Rosina is becoming concerned:- >...at the assumption that if you object to a woman >breastfeeding in public, you must be "set in your >ways", and you should change your ways to adjust to >people with "different social norms".... I think this is to my address. I consider that where to breastfeed is entirely the mother's choice (although I feel that there is rarely or never a need to be blatant about it - not least because any resulting altercation is unlikely to do the baby any good). But I am aware that there are those who disagree with me. I would not seek to change their opinions, but would hope that they would deal charitably with anyone they encounter who practices what they preach against. Personally I think that, in general, breastfeeding in church is inappropriate. But if I were to notice someone doing so I hope that I should not be upset but merely conclude that she thought differently - and not think the worse of her for holding different views from mine. But I might feel critical of people who held the same views as I on the subject and made them manifest to the discomfiture of the mother. And I should also criticise the mother if, in the presence of such disapproval, she did not, if possible, seek a more private place. Not, note, because I think that her initial behaviour is unjustified, but because it is never appropriate to respond to provocation with further provocation - especially in church. James - who considers that any provocative behaviour is inappropriate in church - a Christian church is the house of One who told His followers to "turn the other cheek". --------________--------________-------- From wks at worldpath.net Thu May 8 12:25:39 2003 From: wks at worldpath.net (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 07:25:39 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Boston listee to Worldcon? [on-topic now] In-Reply-To: <00a201c3152e$39690a50$610d4b43@LAPTOP> References: <3EB9BE87.2080806@worldpath.net> <00a201c3152e$39690a50$610d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <3EBA3EB3.2050900@worldpath.net> Paula Lieberman wrote: > I expect to be driving there, however, I was sort of thinking of going up to > Canada a bit earlier than the convention and doing some touristing first.... > [I live northwest of Boston, halfway between 128 and 495]. > I should have fully explained to all, but since I live in NH, and will be travelling down in the general area on father's day weekend, I thought if a Boston area listee was going, I could hand off and number of bottles. THIS year, I won't think of it at the last few minutes. Paula, you and I can hopefully figure out the rest off-list. ;) Bill --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Thu May 8 12:56:03 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 06:56:03 -0500 Subject: [LMB] a map for Kerry, and other Chalion readers In-Reply-To: <005901c31528$078f1ac0$2fa4adcf@nwlink.com> References: <002b01c314df$398cd7e0$0500000a@oemcomputer> <005901c31528$078f1ac0$2fa4adcf@nwlink.com> Message-ID: <20030508115603.GA25448@fireopal.org> On Wed, May 07, 2003 at 11:06:55PM -0700, Dan Tilque wrote: > I just looked at the map again and something occurred to me. > Shouldn't Gotorget be on the other side of the border? After all, > it was lost to the Roknari when dy Jironal sold it. Yet the map > shows it still in Chalion. I will consider it not a spoiler to tell you that the map is (apparently) drawn as of the beginning of PoS, and there HAVE been military campaigns in the intervening three years. Chalion captured it back. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Thu May 8 13:55:51 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 07:55:51 -0500 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Update - 5/8 @ 7:55AM Message-ID: <20030508125551.GA25901@fireopal.org> No new bids since the last update. Auction closes in just over two hours by my clocks. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Thu May 8 14:19:26 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 14:19:26 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Barrayaran Curry In-Reply-To: <200305081101.h48B1Hr5016350@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030508132119.00b1ccc8@pop.luna.co.uk> Dan Tilque is not a cook but believes:- >...curry requires certain spices that >grow only in tropical climates, which >are in short supply in the North Continent. >The absence of curry in the Barrayaran diet >is not remarkable. In fact chiles, coriander and cumin will all grow in sheltered spots in temperate climes. You might have some difficulty with ginger and turmeric but mustard, saffron, asafoetida, garlic, aniseed, bay, caraway, nigella (onion seed), poppy seed, oregano, paprika, rosemary, sage, thyme and many other spices should easily grow in the hot summers of Vorbarr Sultana. Barrayaran curry is more likely than not. James - who intends to curry at TorCon [who intends to come and try it?] --------________--------________-------- From Christina_Caldarelli at manulife.com Thu May 8 14:37:52 2003 From: Christina_Caldarelli at manulife.com (Christina_Caldarelli at manulife.com) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 09:37:52 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: TorCon Curry (was Barrayaran Curry) Message-ID: James Bryant signed: > James - who intends to curry at TorCon > [who intends to come and try it?] Now that's a kind offer. Particularly since you fed me and many of the listees at the last WorldCon I attended, in Chicago. (Thanks again!) But how are you going to make curry at a hotel? I'm having a strange vision of uniformed bellhops wandering the halls of the Royal York in confusion, drawn ever closer to James and the listees by an irresistible and succulent aroma. Christina --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Thu May 8 14:54:23 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 07:54:23 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Clothing customs References: <14056-3EB88118-2450@storefull-2372.public.lawson.webtv.net> Message-ID: <002401c31569$571d6740$708171cf@puter> Jane Hotchkiss wrote:" > ... in the department store where I worked. Yes, past tense, it closed 2 weeks ago after 89 years, will reopen in the fall as a leased operation. I'm just glad the situation is resolved. < Oh, yipes! That's sad news. But does this mean that when the newly configured store re-opens, your job will still be there? > Now I can take the summer in Michigan if my mother gets well enough to go. < I hope you can do this, and that your mom becomes strong enough to share this gift of time with you, free of the pressure of "must get back for work". Your descriptions of the lakeside house have sounded so peaceful and serene... and just think of the price of asparagus! {{{{{{{{Jane}}}}}}} ~ Kay --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Thu May 8 14:59:43 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 07:59:43 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Paladin discussion and spoilers References: <200305071522.KAA09561@komarr.sctc.com> Message-ID: <003001c3156a$13c99300$708171cf@puter> Nancy L. Barber suggests:" > Should we revive the CoC-Bujold list for spoilered discussion, perhaps? Especially as this book seems to be very sensitive to spoilers? It's on Yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CoC-bujold/ < Quick question: Is this an archived list? It'll take a while for the read & sign copies to make their way around, so people will be coming on at different times. I look forward to joining the group, but won't do so until I've read the book. ~ Kay --------________--------________-------- From Joy.Luckabaugh at lexisnexis.com Thu May 8 15:02:30 2003 From: Joy.Luckabaugh at lexisnexis.com (Luckabaugh, Joy H. (LNG-BET)) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:02:30 -0400 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom Message-ID: <38A60BEBEF60234CB599A1FD4BE466E581561E@LNXBETEXCH00.lexisne xis.com> Rosina Rowantree wrote: > I am becoming concerned at the assumption that if you object > to a woman > breastfeeding in public, you must be "set in your ways", and > you should > change your ways to adjust to people with "different social > norms". Perhaps > someone who thinks it is perfectly acceptable to breastfeed > in church is "set > in their ways" and should change their thinking. I can > already hear the > protesters - breastfeeding is natural, it is essential for > the health of the > baby, why should someone be exiled from society just because > they wish to > perform a natural bodily function. Sex is natural, making > love and babies is > a glorious thing to do ... but not in church, or on the > train or anywhere > where people might be offended. Would the mothers who breastfeed in > restaurants or churches also change nappies at the table or > in the pew? And the answer to the final question is no, because there are reasonable and appropriate alternatives for diaper-changing in both of those places. So is breasfeeding more like sex or more like eliminating...? Or is it just more like, well, eating. But you've hit a hot-button of mine (not pizza-worthy, though!), so here comes the rant... You and I eat in restaurants, and in various public places. Why should it be somehow different for a baby? The alternative--at least 6 months of seclusion for the mother-child pair (with the exception of the 2-3 hour intermissions you sometimes get)--seems an extraordinary burden and punishment for what is, plainly, eating. And I have yet to see a pair nursing in public that was even obviously doing so. You have to look really closely, and most of the time the only giveaway is that a woman is holding a baby at the appropriate angle (and perhaps the baby is slurping). The reason it bothers me that others are apparently so bothered by breastfeeding in public to the point of comparing it to publicly exposed poop(! - to invert the analogy, would you eat in a toilet stall??)--is that a good portion of these people feel it right and proper to harass nursing mothers, illegally exile them from places they have a right to feed(as Laura pointed out, anywhere a nursing mother in Ca. has a legal right to be she has a legal right to breastfeed--there is no corresponding legal right to defecate in public), etc. There are many incidents of this kind of thing. I never had it happen to me--but I bet part of the reason is that no one could tell I was doing it. > Being offended is not a sin, and as list members we try not > to cause offence > - the pizza call is a reminder that someone, somewhere might > be offended, so > we hasten to drop the subject, even though that conflicts > with the idea of > freedom of expression. Shouldn't we extend the same courtesy > to those who > are, or might be offended by breastfeeding? Out of courtesy to those who may be offended by breastfeeding, I did make the following efforts: * Feeding baby before an outing, and attempting outings where baby will sleep most of the time. * When out in public, first make an effort to find a *clean* private or semi-private place (IMO: dressing rooms are fine, filthy toilet stalls are NOT). If not available, attempt to face a wall rather than a crowd, or pull stroller in front of self for semi-shield. (On this note, I did use the church nursing room rather than the sanctuary, but both were in church) * Wear large, loose-fitting shirts, button-down shirts, or nursing dress. These clothing items "fall" around the baby and cover the breast, so the only theoretically exposed part is actually in the baby's mouth. If not possible, bring blanket to drape over baby and self. Before the first time I did this, I practiced in front of a mirror to make sure I was not "exposed". * Baby's head should cover view of breast even during latch on and off unless viewer's head is right next to mine. * stopping baby from tugging up my shirt and doing other things that could expose too much. * In private, I asked people if they minded, because in private households it is always possible to remove to another room. No one ever minded. ObBujold: can herms nurse? Joy Luckabaugh Joy.Luckabaugh at lexisnexis.com --------________--------________-------- From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Thu May 8 15:36:27 2003 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:36:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: <38A60BEBEF60234CB599A1FD4BE466E581561E@LNXBETEXCH00.lexisn e xis.com> Message-ID: I liked Joy's comments re breastfeeding. Changing diapers creates the possibility of contamination, requires disposal of waste, and certainly requires you to wash your hands afterwards. So toilets are the logical place to do this. For an experienced caregiver, it's fairly fast. Breastfeeding is essentially clean, doesn't produce a mess or stuff to be discarded, and takes a while to do. It's neither practical or nice to send a mother to the toilet area for that extended a time. The person who pointed out that noisy babies are more of an annoyance than breastfeeding also had a good point. (And hungry babies whose mothers can't feed them are certainly noisy.) Mothers of infants have a hard enough time as it is and are already too isolated in our society, and I don't think they should be forced to slip away for such a (generally) inconspicuous activity as breastfeeding. -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire --------________--------________-------- From lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov Thu May 8 16:02:31 2003 From: lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov (Jagoda, Lynette K) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 08:02:31 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Herms and Hormones Message-ID: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D2003441A@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> Joy Asks: ObBujold: can herms nurse? End Snip ---- I would assume so. If they are "fully functional" male/female. Men have the equipment just not the hormones to self start the process. But that question did launch me into an interesting thought trail... Since hormonal balance is one of the most distinctive and cellular ubiquitous physiological gender differences... however did they manage to segregate that in Herms? Get the right balance to the "female parts" and the "male parts" respectively so they all form and function properly. And since they obviously did figure out how to segregate them what general balance/mix do they send into the non-gender specific parts? Do herms have "time of the month" fluxes when without a contraceptive implant? Do they have the emotional tendencies that "testosterone" can induce in men? Does the Herm's chosen current mode of thoughts or behavior subliminally translate into a more male or female dominate hormonal surge allowing them to physiologically as well a mentally shift gender dominance on the fly? Or did the genetic "designers" find some balance they thought was optimal that makes herms generally "hormonally" stable at all times? Lynette <---- suddenly fascinated with the infinite possibilities being a Genuine Betan Herm might allow one. And far more intrigued by the notion of being one than ever before. --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu May 8 15:47:45 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 09:47:45 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Clothing customs (OT:) In-Reply-To: <3EB9F742.80801@lvhot.org> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030507093851.01db7580@pop.east.cox.net> <20030506165243.H28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <20030506165243.H28809-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030507093851.01db7580@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030508094603.01dbdd20@pop.east.cox.net> At 01:20 05/08/2003, Robert Parks wrote: >Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >>At 01:36 05/07/2003, Robert Parks wrote: >>>Of course, the level of protective coloration needed in San Francisco is >>>pretty low (0?). Not that I am in any danger of being confused with any >>>of the common dress types. > >>I might stand out in SF wearing my dark suits(I own two, one summer >>weight), but I only wear them to church and funerals. My usual wear is a >>pair of khaki work pants, a colored pocket tee, a flannel shirt in cool >>weather, and some kind of sport shirt in summer, and I suppose I wouldn't >>be quite so noticeable that way. > >We have suits here...both native and exotic (tourists and conventioneers), >so that wouldn't be a problem. Just so long as they aren't confusable >with the mormon missionaries. If I were 20, I suppose you could confuse me, suited up for church, for a Mormon missionary, but I am 45 years older and at least 100 lbs heavier. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu May 8 15:57:27 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 09:57:27 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? In-Reply-To: <000001c3150d$926b9cb0$91c9d380@BANKER> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030507213425.01db8ba0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030508094841.01dbc6d0@pop.east.cox.net> At 21:57 05/07/2003, Samantha Banker wrote: > > And he [Mark] may well outlive Miles by a number of years, as the >life-< > > shortening occurrences from DI also did not happen to him. > >Forgive my lack of memory, but what life shortening occurrences? _Divided Immunity_, p. 287: The woman motioned for Miles to refasten his garment, and turned to speak over his head. "Your _husband_," she made the term sound utterly alien, in her mouth, "does suffer some muscular and circulatory micro-scarring. Muscle tone should recover gradually over time to near his prior levels. However, added to his earlier cryo-trauma, I would expect greater chance of circulatory mishaps later in his life. Although as short-lived as you people are, perhaps the few decades difference in life expectancy will not seem significant." -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Thu May 8 16:08:39 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:08:39 -0500 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Results Message-ID: <20030508150839.GA26839@fireopal.org> And the winners are! bhosler at partners.org $650 5/6, 12:35PM rparks at lvhot.org $400 5/7, 8:06AM carosue at centurytel.net $350 5/6, 9:07AM I'll be contacting the winners off-list shortly. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu Thu May 8 16:21:07 2003 From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (Andrew Lambdin-Abraham) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:21:07 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030508094841.01dbc6d0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: On Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 09:57 AM, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > _Divided Immunity_, p. 287: I presume this was a spell chucker, or is this the National Lampoon Edition? :-) > However, added to his earlier cryo-trauma, I would expect greater > chance of circulatory mishaps later in his life. Although as > short-lived as you people are, perhaps the few decades difference in > life expectancy will not seem significant." This is an interesting quote, simply because of the idea that with a short life, a few decades of lost time wouldn't matter. I mean, if Miles could live to be 150, and he lost 3 decades, that's 20% of his life gone. Seems odd to me to consider that potentially insignificant. Perhaps it comes from a "short lived" culture being far more willing to face death and dying than one where it's rare. Personal mortality, and in general. Andrew --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Thu May 8 16:53:40 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 17:53:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] short-lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030508155340.68907.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> --- Andrew Lambdin-Abraham a icrit : > Perhaps it comes from a "short lived" culture being far more willing to > face death and dying than one where it's rare. Personal mortality, and > in general. There is some speculation in Labyrinth about why the designers of Taura and her cohort had chosen to limit their life-spans, and this is suggested: maybe if you don't live very long in the first place, you'll be less likely to mind risking your life in military missions. Seems backwards to me: that which is rare is all the more valued, no? Joy L but not Luckabaugh :-) ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Thu May 8 17:09:46 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 09:09:46 -0700 Subject: [LMB] POS Galley Auction Results In-Reply-To: <20030508150839.GA26839@fireopal.org> References: <20030508150839.GA26839@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <3EBA814A.3010504@lvhot.org> Scott Raun wrote: > And the winners are! > bhosler at partners.org $650 5/6, 12:35PM > rparks at lvhot.org $400 5/7, 8:06AM > carosue at centurytel.net $350 5/6, 9:07AM Whew. More than I was expecting, but not surprising. At least it wasn't more than rent. In other news, the ARCs on EBay seem to be settling around typical early ARC Bujold prices...$61 (LynnCalvin-non-listie) and $81 (PamGotcher). Robert --------________--------________-------- From nancy at dendarii.com Thu May 8 17:12:13 2003 From: nancy at dendarii.com (Nancy L. Barber) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:12:13 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Paladin discussion and spoilers In-Reply-To: <003001c3156a$13c99300$708171cf@puter> References: <200305071522.KAA09561@komarr.sctc.com> <003001c3156a$13c99300$708171cf@puter> Message-ID: At 7:59 AM -0600 5/8/03, Kay Carrasco wrote: >Nancy L. Barber suggests:" >> Should we revive the CoC-Bujold list for spoilered discussion, >perhaps? Especially as this book seems to be very sensitive to >spoilers? It's on Yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CoC-bujold/ < > > Quick question: Is this an archived list? It'll take a while >for the read & sign copies to make their way around, so people >will be coming on at different times. Yes, it's archived, and posts from CoC are still around so it must not have approached the limit at which Yahoo deletes stuff for space. Nancy Barber --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Thu May 8 17:14:16 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 09:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: <38A60BEBEF60234CB599A1FD4BE466E581561E@LNXBETEXCH00.lexisn e xis.com> Message-ID: <20030508091232.R26419-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Thu, 8 May 2003, Luckabaugh, Joy H. (LNG-BET) wrote: > You and I eat in restaurants, and in various public places. Why should it > be somehow different for a baby? Well, we do eat in restaurants, but outside of communion, I've never eaten in church. ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From nancy at dendarii.com Thu May 8 17:17:39 2003 From: nancy at dendarii.com (Nancy L. Barber) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:17:39 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Questing Paladin Quick Report In-Reply-To: <200305071522.KAA09561@komarr.sctc.com> References: <200305071522.KAA09561@komarr.sctc.com> Message-ID: At 10:22 AM -0500 5/7/03, Paul Meyer wrote: >Dave suggested we call this read-and-sign copy "Questing Paladin". Thoughts? I like it! In related news, I think I have scored a copy of Paladin via ABEBooks. When Pam Gotcher outbid me on eBay, I decided to go there and take a quick look. A copy popped up, I ordered, and got a bookseller acknowledgement. I won't believe I really have it until the book is in hand, however. Assuming this copy comes through, I'm willing to circulate it among the Atlanta crowd. While I'd still like to sign the copy that will go back to Lois (and I assume the others here would as well), we could go to the bottom of the list, or alternatively could just have a signing party and mail the copy on the next day. All this is also dependent on the feelings of the other Atlanta listees, of course. >PS. Scott will be getting donations for the charities from all of us. I also plan to send a donation, for a minimum of what I spent on my copy. (Small gloat: cost of book + donation of same amount would still be less than the current eBay bids...) I would like to get a tax deduction, so if Scott can either let me designate that my contribution goes to a qualified charity, or send me the info so I can make my contribution directly, I'll be able to do that. Nancy Barber --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Thu May 8 17:26:54 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 18:26:54 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <3EB8709E.B656C547@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <20030508162654.81536.qmail@web12306.mail.yahoo.com> --- Marna Nightingale a icrit : > Now, if it were lingerie, instead of a bathing suit, you might not get > away with it. Which makes some of my goth-ier outfits as risky as they are risqui. :-) Joy Lanterman ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Thu May 8 17:28:45 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 18:28:45 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Sunblock In-Reply-To: <172.19f928a8.2be9d0f3@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030508162845.45763.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> --- CatMtn at aol.com a icrit : > In a message dated 5/6/2003 9:00:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > > Sunblock is now my main cosmetic. But the stuff they had 35-40 years ago > when I was running around North Padre collecting all that sun damage for the > future was nasty--it felt like wearing axle grease. Well, even now it's not the nicest thing to smear on one's skin. But the fact that it exists and apparently _works_, with no harmful side-effects except for slimy, sticky skin, is quite a wonderful thing. Now, if someone could invent non-slimy sunblock, I'd be thrilled. Even the so-called "dry" sunblocks are still sticky. Joy Lanterman ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Thu May 8 17:31:22 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 18:31:22 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: names In-Reply-To: <38A60BEBEF60234CB599A1FD4BE466E5815608@LNXBETEXCH00.lexisn e xis.com> Message-ID: <20030508163122.46185.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> > Joy Luckabaugh--who notes that now there is another Joy L. on the > list--congratulations, btw!-- and is rather impressed, because it is rare > enough for me to meet another Joy, nonetheless one who shares my initials! > Joy.Luckabaugh at lexisnexis.com Hi, Joy, it's Joy! I noticed that my new initials might cause some confusion about the same time you did, and I'm wondering if I should switch back to my full name, Joyce, just to keep everyone un-confused. Or we could duke it out over who gets to be Joy and who gets to be The Other Joy. :-) Joyce L. (After 3 years of being "the Other Other Isabeau" in my local SCA group, I am resigned to my fate.) ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Thu May 8 17:36:55 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 18:36:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: nursing in church In-Reply-To: <38A60BEBEF60234CB599A1FD4BE466E581561E@LNXBETEXCH00.lexisn e xis.com> Message-ID: <20030508163655.47580.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Luckabaugh, Joy H. (LNG-BET)" a icrit : > > You and I eat in restaurants, and in various public places. Why should it > be somehow different for a baby? A very good point--and looked at in that light, the answer to the original question (should mothers nurse babies in church, or use the nursing room) becomes easier: eating and drinking in most church sanctuaries is against the rules [1]. Ergo, nurse in the nursing room, just as you would leave to get a drink of water. Joyce L., who admits I may feel differently once it's _me_...but who also doesn't go to church [same 1], so no huhu. [1] Except on special occasions, such as the Moravian Love Feast held at our local Unitarian Congregation, where we got to have coffee and Moravian Love Feast Buns [2] in the sanctuary. [2] Is it only I who find the phrase "Moravian Love Feast Buns" inherently funny? ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Thu May 8 17:41:48 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 09:41:48 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Herms and Hormones In-Reply-To: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D2003441A@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> References: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D2003441A@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> Message-ID: <3EBA88CC.8090806@lvhot.org> Jagoda, Lynette K wrote: > Dominance on the fly? Or did the genetic "designers" find some > balance they thought was optimal that makes herms generally > "hormonally" stable at all times? I'd lean toward the normal balance...Bel's leanings appear to be mental. Designed to walk down the middle of the road physiologically. Robert --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Thu May 8 17:41:17 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 11:41:17 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Oddball LMB Reference In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030508100439.00afd928@pop.luna.co.uk> References: <200305080214.h482EPr5014495@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030508114056.02e06120@mail.iqcisp.com> At 10:08 AM 5/8/2003 +0100, James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: >Lorraine greets Mark "Pathloser" Mandel:- > > >Ah, a fellow tribesman, or would that > >be fellow traveler... > >No, it would not be. "Traveler" implies >progress towards a destination. > >The word you seek is "wanderer". > >James Not all who wander are lost. Louann, unable to resist some straight lines. --------________--------________-------- From Robert at WarnickeLittler.com Thu May 8 17:54:24 2003 From: Robert at WarnickeLittler.com (Robert Warnicke) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 09:54:24 -0700 Subject: [LMB] LMB] POS Galley Auction Results In-Reply-To: <200305081630.h48GUCr5017664@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <004801c31582$7b7b5d40$6e01a8c0@D6FL1B21> Robert wrote: >Whew Congrats! I elected not to make any last minute sniping at the "lower" bids. Figured you and Susan could have the last two. > In other news, the ARCs on EBay seem to be settling around typical > early ARC Bujold prices...$61 (LynnCalvin-non-listie) and $81 > (PamGotcher). > Hmm, I wonder who that Brokenjaguar bidder might be... --------- Robert W --------________--------________-------- From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Thu May 8 17:59:11 2003 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:59:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Sunblock In-Reply-To: <20030508162845.45763.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oh dear, you've just hit an area I know something about -- and have strong opinions. Sunscreen doesn't have to feel slimy; good subscreen should be quickly absorbed into your skin, much like a moisturizer. The only problem here is cost. Bottom line: You must have both UVA and UVB protection. Look at the active ingredient lists. UVB protection is frequently provided through octyl methoxycinnamate, generally at about 6-8%. It's also what's measured by the SPF rating, which should be at least 15. So if the lotion has an SPF of 15 or more, UVB is covered. UVA protection can be provided through one of these: -- titanium dioxide (generally 2-2.5%), or -- zinc oxide (~3%), or -- Parsol 1789 aka avobenzone aka butyl methoxydibenzoylmethane -- Mexoryl SX It is *not* measured through SPF. These days, you can get both dedicated subscreens and moisturizers that have proper sunscreen protection. For being outdoors for several hours, or on arms/legs, I haven't found anything better than Ombrelle lotion (by L'Oreal), which absorbs quickly, is fairly thin, and really does protect you. And not slimy. But if the sunscreen has the appropriate ingredients, at this point it's a matter of what feels good on you. I'm sensitive to perfumes and fussy about what goes on my face. Ombrelle works but it can sting your eyes and isn't as nice as a proper moisturizer. I've tried a whole bunch, and the ones that don't smell, don't irritate. feel good, and absorb well are: 1. Estee Lauder DayWear SPF 15 lotion 2. Lancome Vinefit SPF 15 lotion 3. Lancome UV Expert purse sunscreen (this one is outrageously overpriced) 4. MAC Day SPF 15 Light Moisture None of these is cheap, but MAC (at least here) is only 55-60% of the price of the others. Oil of Olay Protective Renewal Lotion (Broad Spectrum SPF 15 Subscreen) works and it's much much cheaper, but it's a bit thick and has a noticeable perfume. On Thu, 8 May 2003, [iso-8859-1] Joyeuse wrote: > Well, even now it's not the nicest thing to smear on one's skin. But the fact > that it exists and apparently _works_, with no harmful side-effects except for > slimy, sticky skin, is quite a wonderful thing. Now, if someone could invent > non-slimy sunblock, I'd be thrilled. Even the so-called "dry" sunblocks are > still sticky. > > Joy Lanterman -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Thu May 8 18:13:39 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 10:13:39 -0700 Subject: [LMB] LMB] POS Galley Auction Results In-Reply-To: <004801c31582$7b7b5d40$6e01a8c0@D6FL1B21> References: <004801c31582$7b7b5d40$6e01a8c0@D6FL1B21> Message-ID: <3EBA9043.1060106@lvhot.org> Robert Warnicke wrote: > Congrats! I elected not to make any last minute sniping at the "lower" > bids. Figured you and Susan could have the last two. I thought of getting up early to check on bids, but decided that $400 was enough. Either I'd win, or I'd overbid the non-listie on EBay. >>In other news, the ARCs on EBay seem to be settling around typical >>early ARC Bujold prices...$61 (LynnCalvin-non-listie) and $81 >>(PamGotcher). > Hmm, I wonder who that Brokenjaguar bidder might be... Somewhere there is a list of listie auction handles, unfortunately, probably on the bujold-list site which is down, and I haven't found my original. Robert --------________--------________-------- From jwreynold at earthlink.net Thu May 8 18:18:46 2003 From: jwreynold at earthlink.net (James Reynolds) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 13:18:46 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: [LMB] short-lived In-Reply-To: <200305081630.h48GU6r5017661@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <20546ABA-8179-11D7-8DA5-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> > --- Andrew Lambdin-Abraham a icrit : >> Perhaps it comes from a "short lived" culture being far more willing >> to >> face death and dying than one where it's rare. Personal mortality, >> and >> in general. > > There is some speculation in Labyrinth about why the designers of > Taura and her > cohort had chosen to limit their life-spans, and this is suggested: > maybe if > you don't live very long in the first place, you'll be less likely to > mind > risking your life in military missions. Seems backwards to me: that > which is > rare is all the more valued, no? In the case of Taura, I'd say that the Makers wanted to make certain that any rogue Tauras wouldn't be rogue for long. And to be able to offer life-extension treatments to Good Little Soldiers. And as for Dr. Ceta, she was probably just being snide. Although, one wonders if Miles might not be a test-case for Cetagandan cellular-repair nanobots later on. If I had a nasty bio-weapon like the Melting Plague, I'd sure as spit want to have an antidote for it! *** Jim Reynolds --------________--------________-------- From christine at forber.net Thu May 8 18:31:50 2003 From: christine at forber.net (Christine Forber) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 13:31:50 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Listee's ebay alias compilation Mon, 25 Jun 2001 Message-ID: Dug this out of my list archives. Maybe those on this list had better check that their entries are still valid. Mine is ok. Christine Here comes the alias compilation for those who are interested. I'm PamGotcher (or pamgotcher) Susan (the neon nurse)-neonnurse or carosue (on Amazon). Maxim Poddoubnyi - maximp1, maximp, or maximp99 Paula Matuszek - PaulaMatuszek Eric Oppen - technomad Agnes Charrel-Berthillier - agnes_charrel or acharrel. Paula Sanch - tygerbryght Robert Parks -Trolleypup or Rparks Amy Sikes Haskins - matya74 Cat Meier - FairestCat or FairestCat8 Christine Forber - christine at forber.net or clforber at home.com Jerrie Adkins - Jerrie Scott Raun -sraun at fireopal.org. or sraun or scottraun David Samson - david4754 Kevin Kennedy - kevin22 Elizabeth McCoy -ArchangelBeth is or arcangel ( at io.com), or emccoy ( at nh.ultranet.com). Laura Gallagher - lauraaddah Jean Lamb - TLambs1138 at cs.com --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Thu May 8 18:32:48 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:32:48 -0500 Subject: [LMB] LMB] POS Galley Auction Results In-Reply-To: <3EBA9043.1060106@lvhot.org> References: <004801c31582$7b7b5d40$6e01a8c0@D6FL1B21> <3EBA9043.1060106@lvhot.org> Message-ID: <20030508173248.GA27511@fireopal.org> On Thu, May 08, 2003 at 10:13:39AM -0700, Robert Parks wrote: > Robert Warnicke wrote: > >Hmm, I wonder who that Brokenjaguar bidder might be... > > Somewhere there is a list of listie auction handles, > unfortunately, probably on the bujold-list site which is down, and > I haven't found my original. Here's my current list: Joy Whitlock - lady_isabeau13 PamGotcher (or pamgotcher) Susan (the neon nurse)-neonnurse or carosue (on Amazon). Maxim Poddoubnyi - maximp1, maximp, or maximp99 James Bryant - jbryant8527 Paula Matuszek - PaulaMatuszek Eric Oppen - Technomad1 Agnes Charrel-Berthillier - agnes_charrel or acharrel. Paula Sanch - tygerbryght Robert Parks -Trolleypup or Rparks Amy Sikes Haskins - matya74 Cat Meier - FairestCat or FairestCat8 Christine L. Forber - christine at forber.net or clforber at home.com Jerrie Adkins - Jerrie Scott Raun -sraun at fireopal.org. or sraun of scottraun David Samson - david4754 Kevin Kennedy - kevin22 Elizabeth McCoy -ArchangelBeth is or arcangel ( at io.com), or emccoy ( at nh.ultranet.com). Laura Gallagher - lauraaddah Jean Lamb - TLambs1138 at cs.com Danielle Hart - cvorpatril on EBAY Jim Toth - soh10r Kiri Aradia Morgan - ataniell or ataniell2 (eBay); lady_nadeshiko (Yahoo!); mistressataniell (Amazon) Natalie Getzoff + lcool888 Alexandra Kwan + litalex OTThug - parkerjbp at aol.com Gudrun Stockman - gudi Robert Warnicke - Brokenjaguar -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Thu May 8 18:36:34 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:36:34 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Listee's ebay alias compilation Mon, 25 Jun 2001 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030508173634.GB27511@fireopal.org> On Thu, May 08, 2003 at 01:31:50PM -0400, Christine Forber wrote: > Dug this out of my list archives. Maybe those on this list had better check > that their entries are still valid. Mine is ok. The list I posted had about 50% more entries. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From nancy at dendarii.com Thu May 8 18:43:17 2003 From: nancy at dendarii.com (Nancy L. Barber) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 13:43:17 -0400 Subject: [LMB] LMB] POS Galley Auction Results In-Reply-To: <20030508173248.GA27511@fireopal.org> References: <004801c31582$7b7b5d40$6e01a8c0@D6FL1B21> <3EBA9043.1060106@lvhot.org> <20030508173248.GA27511@fireopal.org> Message-ID: At 12:32 PM -0500 5/8/03, Scott Raun wrote: > > > Somewhere there is a list of listie auction handles, >> unfortunately, probably on the bujold-list site which is down, and >> I haven't found my original. > >Here's my current list: > Not that I bid often, but you can add me in: Nancy Barber - nlbarber --------________--------________-------- From christine at forber.net Thu May 8 18:49:11 2003 From: christine at forber.net (Christine Forber) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 13:49:11 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Listee's ebay alias compilation Mon, 25 Jun 2001 In-Reply-To: <20030508173634.GB27511@fireopal.org> References: Message-ID: <2vsvqfxyxqg0byb.080520031346@forber.net> At 12:36 PM 5/8/2003 -0500, Scott Raun wrote: >On Thu, May 08, 2003 at 01:31:50PM -0400, Christine Forber wrote: >> Dug this out of my list archives. Maybe those on this list had better check >> that their entries are still valid. Mine is ok. > >The list I posted had about 50% more entries. Yup, I've discarded mine already and put yours in its place!! But I'd already sent mine when I received your version. Thanks, Christine --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Thu May 8 18:42:50 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 12:42:50 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Sunblock In-Reply-To: <20030508162845.45763.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> References: <172.19f928a8.2be9d0f3@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030508123957.02f156a0@mail.iqcisp.com> At 06:28 PM 5/8/2003 +0200, Joyeuse wrote: > --- CatMtn at aol.com > > Sunblock is now my main cosmetic. But the stuff they had 35-40 years ago > > when I was running around North Padre collecting all that sun damage > for the > > future was nasty--it felt like wearing axle grease. > >Well, even now it's not the nicest thing to smear on one's skin. But the fact >that it exists and apparently _works_, with no harmful side-effects except for >slimy, sticky skin, is quite a wonderful thing. Now, if someone could invent >non-slimy sunblock, I'd be thrilled. Even the so-called "dry" sunblocks are >still sticky. As a lifelong redhead (now with bonus Blond Baby to think about) sunblock is a subject of great interest to me. Maybe it's because I've been used to it for so long, but I never felt it to be particularly slimy. All my bad burns as a child happened because I forgot to reapply sunscreen after washing it off in the pool or at the beach. I think I was ten or so before I realized that beaches don't smell like Coppertone Shade(tm), it was just me. These days I favor something with a 45 rating or better. Louann, the non-tanner. --------________--------________-------- From nancy at dendarii.com Thu May 8 18:53:44 2003 From: nancy at dendarii.com (Nancy L. Barber) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 13:53:44 -0400 Subject: [LMB] LMB] POS Galley Auction Results In-Reply-To: <3EBA9043.1060106@lvhot.org> References: <004801c31582$7b7b5d40$6e01a8c0@D6FL1B21> <3EBA9043.1060106@lvhot.org> Message-ID: At 10:13 AM -0700 5/8/03, Robert Parks wrote: >Robert Warnicke wrote: >>Congrats! I elected not to make any last minute sniping at the "lower" >>bids. Figured you and Susan could have the last two. > >I thought of getting up early to check on bids, but decided that >$400 was enough. Either I'd win, or I'd overbid the non-listie on >EBay. Unsuccessful list auction and eBay bidders might want to set up an ABEBooks wish list for it too. If copies are going to be sold, might as well try and snag them for listees. The copy I lucked into (should be in the mail to me now, bounce bounce!) was $26 including shipping. However, as copies sell on eBay, ABEBooks sellers may use those prices for a guide... Nancy Barber --------________--------________-------- From vlecuyer at ksu.edu Thu May 8 19:02:49 2003 From: vlecuyer at ksu.edu (Victoria L'Ecuyer) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 13:02:49 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Clothing customs (OT:) References: <200305071014.h47AE3r5010880@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EBA9BC9.1F9D3AF8@ksu.edu> I've been reading and deleting, so no attributes, just generic observations. On "protective coloration" in the guise of clothing: Sometimes uniforms or a uniform appearance are necessary for the protection of the person. Just last week where I work, we sent two student workers to get measurements for an office renovation. Normally this is not a problem. Everyone in my section is required to wear, prominently displayed on the chest, a 3x5 photo ID card showing their, name, departmental affiliation and job title. This is for the uniform wearing maintenance staff and every one else. Period. People can be fired on the spot for non-compliance. However, the students went through a self-locking door (between Information Technology side and the Foundation/Investments side of the building) and had to find their way back to the suite of rooms they were sent to examine. Since the students in question are from India and the majority of the office workers in the building we sent them to were of the WASP variety, there was a little unrest amongst "the native". At one point the campus police were called. At no point did any of the office workers go up to the students, (who were dressed like students and not in Business Casual, Business Formal or Business Whatever), and ask "may I help you?" Apparently right now in this part of the world "dark skinned, people of uncertain nationality = suspicious". One individual in my office was heard to mutter "the next time I send one of the kids over, they're going to wear a sandwich placard that says 'I work for Jerry. It's OK.'" For work I wear any number of styles from the masculine to the very feminine, formal to informal. My office is flexible and what I wear largely depends on my mood that morning or what may be happening in the office that day. If there is an important meeting, I do business formal/dressier. If there is an office potluck or it's inventory day, I do casual. On cutting hair: I understand from friends who have trouble growing hair, that they get very attached to it when growing it out. Especially when they're going for a Look. I've never had that problem. There were times in my life when I wished it would grow slower (that was during the perming phase.) I've cut my own hair, but I prefer having professionals do it, because I'm picky about my hair's appearance and, for the most part, they do a better job than I can. Of course when I get in a mood, my waist length hair will get shortened to my shoulders. I get trims about twice a year to keep the ends neat, but I only have serious haircuts (6-8 inches cut off) once every three years. That's when I'm put in a position of comforting my stylist and casual by-standers. (True story. I had to tell three different people "It grows back. Really!") Or ordering them. Some beauticians won't cut more than 3-4 inches at a time. Too many bad experiences with upset customers. It's an odd flip side to the anxiety of not having control of your hair style. The rest of the time I keep my hair pinned up since I can't stand having it in my face and don't want to spend the time picking out snarls. Mostly its in some sort of bun or braid or twist, but I like experimenting with hair styles and have several that I wear, depending on my mood. There are people who have never seen me with my hair down. Even my friends, who see it down the most, always comment when I leave it loose. It's all in what you're used to. Comfort and no-hassle hair is what does it for me. On wearing hose/other leg coverings: With hose of any kind, sheer, nude, etc. it's the finish not the color. I regard it like wearing jewelry or layer of shellac on a good piece of furniture. It provides a "finished" appearance. However, I don't wear hose in the summer unless I have to. For the sticky-foot syndrome, I found out Peds (tm) or similar slipper-style microfiber sockettes work very well. They never come up higher than mid-arch and stay well hidden in most dress style shoes. About special rooms in churches for breast feeding: Is that what they were meant for? too many times I see parents with active children exiled there, which irks me. One part of learning is observing the actions of those around you. If you can't see the correct way to behave, how will you know to alter your behavior to fit the generally accepted standards. My father felt that a quiet church was a dead church. He was happiest when the preacher was projecting to be heard over crying children. I have to say that I agree. On bare skin preferences: I am not very body conscious. So lots of bare skin or toplessness or nudity never bothered me. However. I have told the students working in my office to cover up or to wear other attire. A professional office is not the place for beach/barhopping clothing. Clothing requirements are very flexible in some places and very rigid in others. I find myself in the position of The Office Mommy when I have to teach some of the college students that work for me about appropriate styles and what not to wear if they want to be taken seriously. Which is not to say that I don't have and wear more revealing outfits. I do. I also like to wear them in public, I just chose my audience with care. On clothing styles / costuming: To my way of thinking, all clothing is costuming. It provides the first clues about who you are to the observer. I have costumes for every kind of situation from the very casual to the very formal. What I wear projects whatever facet of my personality I want seen at any given time. My only caveat is that it has to be comfortable to wear. Anything can be made comfortable. It just takes proper tailoring. On restrictions about clothing/nudity/etc. Anyone can dress however they want as long as they are willing to deal with the reactions that cause in others. While I enjoy the freedom to dress how I want and go where I want to in them (or without them), I'm also aware of the consequences and that the general opinion will change over time. Miniskirts were not very acceptable to some in the 50's and early 60's. Frex. My father used to hate it when I or my sisters wore shorts. He always made us change no matter how long the legs were. Eventually he relaxed enough to let us wear shorts at home, and then out in public if they were at or near the knees. (this sometimes ignored the fact that our skirts could be shorter than the shorts, but The Great Hemline Battle is a story for another time). Before his death, he had started wearing them himself, at home, when he knew no one would be dropping by to talk business. I don't know if he would have worn them in public. His accident cut things short. Victoria --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Thu May 8 19:40:58 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 14:40:58 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030507213425.01db8ba0@pop.east.cox.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030508094841.01dbc6d0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <015a01c31591$6021b990$610d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter H. Granzeau" > At 21:57 05/07/2003, Samantha Banker wrote: > > .... , added to his earlier cryo-trauma, I would expect > greater chance of circulatory mishaps later in his life. Although as > short-lived as you people are, perhaps the few decades difference in life > expectancy will not seem significant." Apparently the woman didn't realize that Miles is half Betan! Oh, yuck, Mile turning into a grouchy crippled arthritic aching old man snarling at everyone -- sounds worse than superannuated Piotr! --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Thu May 8 19:47:14 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 19:47:14 +0100 Subject: [LMB] TorCon Curry In-Reply-To: <200305081630.h48GU6r5017661@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030508193400.00aef6f0@pop.luna.co.uk> Christina_Caldarelli, who has a strange vision of uniformed bellhops wandering the halls of the Royal York in confusion drawn ever closer to me and other listies by an irresistible and succulent aroma, enquires: >But how are you going to make curry at a hotel? Ay OryCon a few years ago I prepared curry for Herself and some thirty-five listies in my bathroom and cooked it in a camper in the parking lot of the Doubletree Hotel. The management were not, I fancy, overjoyed - but they did not interfere. And they were VERY good about sending housekeeping staff to help tidy up - fifteen minutes after the last guest had gone you could not have told the party had happened. I used pre-prepared vegetables (peeled/chopped onions for instance), which I would NEVER do at home, to minimise work and mess. And disposable cutlery and crockery. But THIS time it looks as if I'll have a real kitchen at the backpacker hotel where Marna is staying. But I can't bring four 20 litre pans with me as I'm coming to TorCon from a week's sailing/diving in the BVI, so I'll need to borrow some big pans (he said hopefully). James - who considers that a Listie Curry-In is a variety of MiniLoisCon and therefore NOT OT --------________--------________-------- From Joy.Luckabaugh at lexisnexis.com Thu May 8 21:30:18 2003 From: Joy.Luckabaugh at lexisnexis.com (Luckabaugh, Joy H. (LNG-BET)) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 16:30:18 -0400 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom Message-ID: <38A60BEBEF60234CB599A1FD4BE466E581562B@LNXBETEXCH00.lexisne xis.com> > On Thu, 8 May 2003, Luckabaugh, Joy H. (LNG-BET) wrote: > > You and I eat in restaurants, and in various public places. > Why should it > > be somehow different for a baby? Azalais Malfoy wrote: > Well, we do eat in restaurants, but outside of communion, I've > never eaten in church. I assume by eating in church you mean "eating in the sanctuary during the service" (as opposed to say, the church pot-luck dinner, or ladies' Christmas dessert and craft night, also held in the sanctuary). At my church it's not unusual for someone to grab some coffee and perhaps a brownie or bagel from the table in the narthex and nibble/drink *discreetly* during the service. It's hardly encouraged, but it happens often enough, and no outraged voices have been heard. I have also been medically required to eat every 2-3 hours and discreetly eaten a small snack of crackers in church during the service (loud hymns are best if you're going to *crunch* :-)). I *think* I may have seen a mother nurse in church--although, with the baby in a sling, it is very, very difficult to be sure and I wouldn't be so obnoxious as to hover or ask. At the church I briefly attended in Papua New Guinea, it was quite common for mothers to openly (and I mean very openly) nurse during services. Of course, there was only 1 room, so to leave the room was to leave the building... I personally think, if I were going to have to nurse in the sanctuary during service (which I didn't), I'd make sure I would be seated in the back row so the odds of anyone besides my husband noticing anything would be slim-to-none. Joy Luckabaugh Joy.Luckabaugh at LexisNexis.com --------________--------________-------- From zafaran at sff.net Thu May 8 21:33:56 2003 From: zafaran at sff.net (Patricia A. Swan) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 16:33:56 -0400 Subject: [LMB] LMB] POS Galley Auction Results In-Reply-To: References: <20030508173248.GA27511@fireopal.org> <004801c31582$7b7b5d40$6e01a8c0@D6FL1B21> <3EBA9043.1060106@lvhot.org> <20030508173248.GA27511@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030508162609.03616690@pop3.sff.net> At 01:43 PM 5/8/2003 -0400, Nancy L. Barber wrote: >Not that I bid often, but you can add me in: > >Nancy Barber - nlbarber And me, Patricia A. Swan -- zafaranswan I remember Robert Parks and I got a Chalion ARC bid up to over $85.00 before we realized that we were bidding against a fellow listee, and that led to one of the first lists of auction IDs being put together for the LMB list Pat in North Carolina -- * Patricia A. Swan <*> zafaran at dnet.net Ebay ID: zafaranswan * * Six Swans Design http://members.fortunecity.com/zafaran * --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Thu May 8 21:40:21 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 21:40:21 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Wanderers (WAS OT:- Oddball LMB Reference) In-Reply-To: <200305081855.h48It3r5018384@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030508213629.00af8870@pop.luna.co.uk> Louann, who is unable to resist some straight lines, reminds me that:- >Not all who wander are lost. But all those who are lost wander. James - who once took a logic course --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu May 8 21:44:35 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 15:44:35 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030508094841.01dbc6d0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030508154130.01db7840@pop.east.cox.net> At 10:21 05/08/2003, Andrew Lambdin-Abraham wrote: >On Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 09:57 AM, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > >>_Divided Immunity_, p. 287: > >I presume this was a spell chucker, or is this the National Lampoon >Edition? :-) Just a brain f*rt. Sorry! >> However, added to his earlier cryo-trauma, I would expect greater >> chance of circulatory mishaps later in his life. Although as >> short-lived as you people are, perhaps the few decades difference in >> life expectancy will not seem significant." > >This is an interesting quote, simply because of the idea that with a short >life, a few decades of lost time wouldn't matter. I mean, if Miles >could live to be 150, and he lost 3 decades, that's 20% of his life >gone. Seems odd to me to consider that potentially insignificant. > >Perhaps it comes from a "short lived" culture being far more willing to >face death and dying than one where it's rare. Personal mortality, and in >general. The first sentence of the next paragraph probably should have been included: _Quite the reverse, madam._ Miles realizes that to those with a shorter life span, every day is more precious. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Thu May 8 21:47:33 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 13:47:33 -0700 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: <20030508091232.R26419-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <013d01c315a3$0d3a8f60$31432904@earthlink.net> Joy wrote: >> You and I eat in restaurants, and in various public places. >> Why should it be somehow different for a baby? > > Well, we do eat in restaurants, but outside of communion, I've > never eaten in church. > > ~malfoy How interesting. The church my parents took me to as a child frequently had food. (Heck, I remember my sweet tooth loving the chance to snag sugarcubes from the coffee table) Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Thu May 8 21:58:53 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 15:58:53 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Oddball LMB Reference In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030508100439.00afd928@pop.luna.co.uk> References: <200305080214.h482EPr5014495@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EBA7EBD.10617.274B75A@localhost> James M. BRYANT, G4CLF, replying to Mark Mandel, contends: > No, it would not be. "Traveler" implies > progress towards a destination. I think the Irish Travellers might dispute this claim. He continues: > The word you seek is "wanderer". Are you suggesting that our Mark is a Wandering Jew? Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Thu May 8 22:16:37 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 14:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: <38A60BEBEF60234CB599A1FD4BE466E581562B@LNXBETEXCH00.lexisn e xis.com> Message-ID: <20030508141519.J26419-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Thu, 8 May 2003, Luckabaugh, Joy H. (LNG-BET) wrote: > > On Thu, 8 May 2003, Luckabaugh, Joy H. (LNG-BET) wrote: > > > You and I eat in restaurants, and in various public places. > > Why should it > > > be somehow different for a baby? > > Azalais Malfoy wrote: > > Well, we do eat in restaurants, but outside of communion, I've > > never eaten in church. > > I assume by eating in church you mean "eating in the sanctuary during the > service" (as opposed to say, the church pot-luck dinner, or ladies' > Christmas dessert and craft night, also held in the sanctuary). Right. I've never belonged to a church where people were in the habit of eating during services. Or talking, etc. It's considered rude at most of the churches I've been to, though I've never been a regular church-goer, not being terribly Christian. ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Thu May 8 22:17:48 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 14:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: <013d01c315a3$0d3a8f60$31432904@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030508141707.G26419-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Thu, 8 May 2003, Laura Gallagher wrote: > Joy wrote: > >> You and I eat in restaurants, and in various public places. > >> Why should it be somehow different for a baby? > > > > Well, we do eat in restaurants, but outside of communion, I've > > never eaten in church. > > How interesting. The church my parents took me to as a child frequently > had food. (Heck, I remember my sweet tooth loving the chance to snag > sugarcubes from the coffee table) In the church? During SERVICES? I don't mean in the church basement or the church reception hall. These people were talking about nursing during services, in a pew. ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Thu May 8 22:17:48 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 16:17:48 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: names In-Reply-To: <20030508163122.46185.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> References: <38A60BEBEF60234CB599A1FD4BE466E5815608@LNXBETEXCH00.lexisn e xis.com> Message-ID: <3EBA832C.19939.2860653@localhost> Joyeuse wrote: > Hi, Joy, it's Joy! I noticed that my new initials might cause some > confusion about the same time you did, and I'm wondering if I should > switch back to my full name, Joyce, just to keep everyone un-confused. > Or we could duke it out over who gets to be Joy and who gets to be > The Other Joy. :-) > > (After 3 years of being "the Other Other Isabeau" in my local SCA > group, I am resigned to my fate.) In Pratchett's latest, _The Wee Free Men_ (and my thanks to whoever - Louann? - mentioned it onlist), there is a character called "No'-as-big- as-Medium-Sized-Jock-but-bigger-than-Wee-Jock-Jock". Apparently there are very few acceptable names among the Nac Mac Feegle. (This character is by no means the first to have borne that epithet, BTW.) Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Thu May 8 22:19:16 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 09:19:16 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Sunblock In-Reply-To: <20030508162845.45763.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Well, even now it's not the nicest thing to smear on one's skin. > But the fact that it exists and apparently _works_, with no harmful > side-effects except for slimy, sticky skin, is quite a wonderful > thing. Now, if someone could invent > non-slimy sunblock, I'd be thrilled. Even the so-called "dry" > sunblocks are still sticky. While not quite there, one of the coolest things I have noticed in the past few years is roll on sunscreen. No more squirting too much in you hand by mistake, no more sunscreen dribbling down your arm as you put the bottle away. It is a great idea. Mandos (Roll on Suncreen convert) /s --------________--------________-------- From gsvaughan at insightbb.com Thu May 8 22:30:03 2003 From: gsvaughan at insightbb.com (George S. Vaughan) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 16:30:03 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Oddball LMB Reference In-Reply-To: <3EBA7EBD.10617.274B75A@localhost> References: <200305080214.h482EPr5014495@lists.herald.co.uk> <5.1.1.6.2.20030508100439.00afd928@pop.luna.co.uk> <3EBA7EBD.10617.274B75A@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 08 May 2003 15:58:53 -0500, jparish at siue.edu wrote: >Are you suggesting that our Mark is a Wandering Jew? Let's see, he speaks many dead and living languages, including some where hand physiology is important; is of indeterminate but mature age; is obsessed with the mythological beasts "dragons", so much so that he thinks that ones that are merely 1000 years of age are young (c.f. his recent mention of Pathloser); thinks that he owns a pronoun. This leads me to believe that he may not just be a Jew wandering between Framingham and Philly, but may in fact the immortal Wandering Jew, versed in many languages and cultures, indifferent to age. Has anyone looked at his footprints? --------________--------________-------- From randallm at yorku.ca Thu May 8 22:35:40 2003 From: randallm at yorku.ca (randallm at yorku.ca) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 17:35:40 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Wanderers (WAS OT:- Oddball LMB Reference) In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030508213629.00af8870@pop.luna.co.uk> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030508213629.00af8870@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <1052429740.3ebacdac14795@mymail.yorku.ca> Quoting "James M. BRYANT, G4CLF" : > Louann, who is unable to resist some > straight lines, reminds me that:- > > >Not all who wander are lost. > > But all those who are lost wander. > > James - who once took a logic course Actually, some who are lost stand around, looking puzzled. Randall (logic is a little tweeting bird) --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Thu May 8 22:36:38 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 14:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Digest 2353 Missing Message-ID: I don't seem to have received digest 2353. Would some kind sould send a copy of it to me? Susan in Seattle --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Thu May 8 22:52:13 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 17:52:13 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Sunblock Message-ID: <51.2ef2f54d.2bec2b8d@aol.com> In a message dated 5/8/2003 12:31:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: I find the unscented kind made for babies (Baby Faces, I think it's called) is the most pleasant to use. It's 50 rated, and soaks in like a good hand lotion--the only better lotion I have found is Cetaphil Lotion. However, I have very dry skin and any little bit of moisture is appreciated. Mary > Well, even now it's not the nicest thing to smear on one's skin. But the > fact > that it exists and apparently _works_, with no harmful side-effects except > for > slimy, sticky skin, is quite a wonderful thing. Now, if someone could > invent > non-slimy sunblock, I'd be thrilled. Even the so-called "dry" sunblocks > are > still sticky. > --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Thu May 8 22:55:35 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 17:55:35 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Moravian Love Feast Buns Message-ID: <23.2f3ec25a.2bec2c57@aol.com> In a message dated 5/8/2003 2:56:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: No. Even though I enjoy them and buy them whenever I go to Old Salem, I want to snicker at the name on the package. Mary > > [2] Is it only I who find the phrase "Moravian Love Feast Buns" inherently > funny? > --------________--------________-------- From tks1 at acpub.duke.edu Thu May 8 23:00:09 2003 From: tks1 at acpub.duke.edu (Tora K. Smulders-Srinivasan) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 18:00:09 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The elusive Barrayaran desi (was Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes) In-Reply-To: References: <200305071640.h47Ge3r5012322@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030508164855.0b843868@mail-tk.acpub.duke.edu> At 08:46 PM 5/7/2003, Fatima Raja wrote: I've changed the subject line as, wonder of wonders, I'm posting on-topic. Yay! and thanks, now, so am I! :-) Peter Newman wrote: > After a few centuries, even with a relatively modest rate of > intermarriage, the European populations from which the Barrayaran > firsters derive should be fairly ethnically integrated. Then the time of > isolation gave several more centuries in which integration could/would > have occurred. We know that ethnic differences still exist but they seem > to be linguistic, and not 'racial'. Therefore few, if any, Barrayarans > will look 'non-white' but all Barrayarans will be somewhat darker > skinned than many modern Europeans. YMMV. Actually, I'm not sure I'd agree with what Peter Newman has written here. I always assumed (and am only now consciously thinking it out) that the Barrayaran population was _very_ segregated at some fairly recent point, otherwise there would not be any ethnic distinctions at all. Like Beta, Escobar, Jackson's Whole, Cetaganda. All of the Nexus other than Barrayar seem to have certain planetary distinctions, but pretty homogenous populations within. Is that because we only see Barrayar in enough detail? Perhaps. Is it because Barrayar is "backwards" in the galaxy because of its Time of Isolation? It has regressed to a culture with distinct nobility. Perhaps that social disinclination to mix, along with the lack of technology to travel within the planet easily, caused the isolation of different ethnic groups on Barrayar which we see as linguistic groups. My assumption of genetic segregation as well as language segregation is based on the fact that it seems a lot easier to lose language distinctions to intermarriage and mingling of cultures than it is to mix genetic characteristics. Therefore, if the more easily lost language distinctions still exist on Barrayar, then the genetic distinctions should also still be there. Perhaps that is a false assumption, but I'm basing that on my own life, I now see. I was born in India and grew up in the USA and have the typical ethnic Indian appearance. I'm married to a Belgian with blonde hair and blue eyes. We don't have any babies yet, but our children will almost certainly have a mix of our features and hopefully be fluent in Dutch/Flemish (my husband's native tongue) as well as English. However, since I myself am not very fluent (or is that like slightly pregnant, you are fluent or not?) in Telugu and Tamil, I despair as to whether our children will learn enough to converse with their Indian relatives that don't speak English. In any case, I feel like the _languages_ will be lost a lot sooner than the black hair, the dark brown eyes, and the brown skin. In this case, if my husband and I continue to live in English speaking countries, Telegu, Tamil, and Dutch/Flemish will all probably overwhelmed by English. I consider it very unlikely that our grandchildren will speak any of them except English with fluency. I don't think my experience is unique, it's very difficult to keep a native language going in a country without being overwhelmed by the majority language. The places in the USA where a native language is kept up the best are where there are concentrated pockets of people who all speak the language and where there are shops, restaurants, etc. that do as well. Therefore, I picture Barrayar as having different, fairly segregated areas where different cultures/ethnic groups live. Hmmm.... different countries on Barrayar? I guess that's sort of what I was thinking. So I'd also think that the genetic backgrounds would not be all that mixed either. Though all of this would then change as galactic influences were felt. Well, I'd been wondering why there are no Vorkhans or Vorabduls running around, really. I hadn't thought about Vorpatril, but I suppose it could be a(n) (mutated?) Indian name, though Padma (and I'm sure Divya or Tora will correct me if I'm wrong) is a woman's name, surely? I agree, of course, that by that time it is unlikely that there would be actual visible differences, but I imagine the names would stick around a bit. And the curry, of course. Hard to get the curry out. I totally agree with Fatima here --- Padma as an Indian name, as far as I've ever heard, is a woman's name. And it's a pretty common name in South India, where my family's from, so I know quite a few Padmas, all of whom are female!! It really messed with my mind a lot when I first started reading Bujold. A totally new world, with lots of new names of planets, cultures, people -- and a woman's name on a man? Weird. I'm sure the first few times Padma was mentioned I thought we were talking about a woman!! Oooops! :-) But, yes, I'd think the names would stick around, as well as the food. Ah, no hurries. Don't worry about it. Or rather -- warn me before you send it, since I'll be graduating soon, and going back to the old 3 bits an hour internet connection in Pakistan. Fatima Raja Congratulations on graduating, Fatima! And good luck in your future plans!! -Tora --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Thu May 8 23:11:11 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 18:11:11 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Shorts Message-ID: <1e2.88a77dd.2bec2fff@aol.com> In a message dated 5/8/2003 2:56:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: My father (born in 1890) happily wore Bermuda shorts in the Texas summer, and never objected when I wore the shortest shorts and skimpiest tanks or halter tops I could find back in the fifties and sixties. When my mother commented that I shouldn't be running around like that, he told her that times had changed since he was a boy, when his father wouldn't be seen outside of his bedroom without a suit including vest, long-sleeved shirt, and tie. The only comment he ever made was that he thought that a redhead like me should use sunblock, and he was right about that! Mary > Frex. My father used to hate it when I or my sisters wore shorts. He always > made us change no matter how long the legs were. Eventually he relaxed > enough to let us wear shorts at home, and then out in public if they were > at or near the knees. (this sometimes > ignored the fact that our skirts could be shorter than the shorts, but The > Great Hemline Battle is a story for another time). Before his death, he had > started wearing them himself, at home, when he knew no one would be > dropping by to talk business. I don't know if > he would have worn them in public. His accident cut things short. --------________--------________-------- From gsvaughan at insightbb.com Thu May 8 23:13:12 2003 From: gsvaughan at insightbb.com (George S. Vaughan) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 17:13:12 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Pyramid OT: In-Reply-To: References: <200305080214.h482EPr5014495@lists.herald.co.uk> <5.1.1.6.2.20030508100439.00afd928@pop.luna.co.uk> <3EBA7EBD.10617.274B75A@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 08 May 2003 16:30:03 -0500, I wrote: >This leads me to believe that he may not just be a Jew wandering >between Framingham and Philly, but may in fact the immortal Wandering >Jew, versed in many languages and cultures, indifferent to age. This is what happens when you initially encounter the Pyramid archives in their entirety and read a dozen Suppressed Transmissions, Adventure Pizzas, etc., a day for a week. Everything seems supernatural, conspiratorial, magical, nonsensical, or some or all of the above. All Hail Eris! Fnord! Fnord! --------________--------________-------- From theneals at xtra.co.nz Thu May 8 23:29:42 2003 From: theneals at xtra.co.nz (Anita Neal) Date: 09 May 2003 10:29:42 +1200 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: <20030508141707.G26419-100000@shell.rawbw.com> References: <20030508141707.G26419-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <1052432978.962.8.camel@orac> On Fri, 2003-05-09 at 09:17, Azalais Malfoy wrote: > On Thu, 8 May 2003, Laura Gallagher wrote: > > > Joy wrote: > > >> You and I eat in restaurants, and in various public places. > > >> Why should it be somehow different for a baby? > > > > > > Well, we do eat in restaurants, but outside of communion, I've > > > never eaten in church. > > > > How interesting. The church my parents took me to as a child frequently > > had food. (Heck, I remember my sweet tooth loving the chance to snag > > sugarcubes from the coffee table) > > In the church? During SERVICES? > > I don't mean in the church basement or the church reception hall. > > These people were talking about nursing during services, in a > pew. > > ~malfoy > > Umm, for what it's worth I go to a fairly ordinary Presbyterian church > here in NZ. The first Sunday each month is a cafe service in which we > sit around small tables enjoying coffee and nibbles as part of the > service. It's very pleasant and relaxed. We have a number of babes in > arms, and there's no taboo forbidding their feeding during the > services. (After all, with a little practice and realistic clothing > it's possible to feed very discreetly.) I think it just depends on > what your culture is. > > Anita Neal --------________--------________-------- From lucy at chubb.wattle.id.au Fri May 9 00:35:53 2003 From: lucy at chubb.wattle.id.au (Lucy Chubb) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 09:35:53 +1000 Subject: [lucyc@chubb.wattle.id.au: Re: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae?] Message-ID: <20030508233553.GA4433@chubb.wattle.id.au> My mail has been playing up and I think this posting didn't get to the list, my appologies if this is a repeat. LucyC ----- Forwarded message from Lucy Chubb ----- Subject: Re: [LMB] Miles Vertebrae? From: Lucy Chubb On Tue, May 06, 2003 at 10:24:47PM -0700, Meg Justus wrote: > Is this going to turn out like the discussion about the Komarran mirror not > being possible as described??? Given that I can't see how someone could get > his *skull* dealt with in this fashion? My daughter had surgery on her skull which essentially involved taking the whole front half off, restructuring it, and screwing it back, so I don't see that it would necessarily be very difficult in Miles' day (particularly with further advances in surgery and materials). The main dangers and difficulties for my daughter, if I remember rightly, were blood loss, risk of infection, and swelling. I understand that it isn't even regarded as particularly dangerous surgery, even though it's fairly major. One of the key things is that it doesn't involve going into the brain. My daughter recovered very well, in almost record time. She was out of hospital in five days (and learn't to climb out of her cot a week after that -- with an enormous thump -- ouch!). LucyC ----- End forwarded message ----- --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Fri May 9 00:37:49 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 19:37:49 -0400 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom References: <20030508141707.G26419-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <1052432978.962.8.camel@orac> Message-ID: <3EBAEA3D.EEE2912F@redmaplegrove.org> Rosina : > I am becoming concerned at the assumption that if you object > to a woman breastfeeding in public, you must be "set in your ways", Guilty. I think that people who object to breastfeeding in public suffer from a socially-induced inability to make reasonable distinctions. And from cervical vertabrae issues. There is ALWAYS somewhere else you could be looking. I mean, I don't think it makes them bad people or dumb, or anything, but to me most of the arguments I hear work on my nerves in the same way (different in degree but not in kind) that people who gawk or are shocked or titillated at accident victims who are indecently exposed do, or in the way that people who call sexual education materials intended to promote reproductive health and std prevention 'pornographic' *simply because they contain depictions of genitalia* do, or indeed, people who yell, whistle or otherwise harass women who walk down the street wearing revealing clothes. I do understand that changing standards can be a shock to the system. I mean, I sympathise, I know where it comes from, it's just so incredibly far from how I was raised and how I am now that it is genuinely difficult NOT to be impatient and short about it. I have to fight the urge to walk up to such people and hand them small cards on which are neatly printed 1) it isn't always about sex, 2) and it isn't always about you. Now, I'm talking about my inner responses, I don't mean I think that people who are upset by any of these things should be treated harshly. I think James' reminder that some effort on both side is the best way to go is very timely. It's reasonable for a person to feel or express discomfort in a polite way. It's reasonable for a nursing mother to make a soft answer, even if she's not willing to move: 'well, I understand you but I just don't see it that way, I see it this way.' It's reasonable and even laudable for people who feel strongly about the issue to have these sorts of discussions, like we're doing now, at times when no actual babies are being fed and tempers are relatively calm. I also think that people who are 'set in their ways' overestimate the amount of adjustment that is required. One's first publically breastfeeding woman may be a noteable shock, but I don't know as one's fifth is. It IS possible to determine to get used to something. > > I can already hear the protesters - breastfeeding is natural, it is essential for > > the health of the baby, why should someone be exiled from society just because > > they wish to perform a natural bodily function. I think "natural bodily function" is a straw man, or a straw breast, or something. I've never heard anyone who nursed in public or favoured it argue for it on the grounds that it was a 'natural bodily function'. LACTATION is a natural bodily function. Nursing is an activity. What I have heard argued is that to wish to feed a hungry baby is natural, and that to do so is reasonable. Given how often babies eat, feeding in public seems a reasonable thing. Especially since one effect of several decades of NA women bottle feeding almost exclusively means that feeding babies in public became a widespread practice seen as entirely reasonable. Legitimating public breastfeeding was doubtless not an expected consequence of this, but it does seem much less reasonable to argue for no public nursing when public bottle feeding is not only considered okay but even rather cute. It's a question of balance, to me. Nursing mothers need to feed often and need to get out and about a lot these days. Their position is therefore that public feeding will happen, and that what might seem eminently reasonable when proposed as a one time solution -- find a location discreet enough to suit the objectors, clean enough to suit the mother, and FAST enough to suit the baby -- becomes a wearing grinding hardship when done every 2-3 hours for 6-24 months. It's not that I don't think that people who are uncomfortable have a case, it's that I think they have a weaker case than that and ought therefore to give way. And > > These people were talking about nursing during services, in a > > pew. > > > > ~malfoy FWIW, given the basic structure of pews, I'm thinking that if you're not right beside a woman who is nursing and yet you're more than casually aware of the fact that she is doing so, either she is being REALLY indiscreet -- or you're not paying enough attention to the service -- or, possibly, she is the minister. It is entirely possible to miss noticing it in Quaker meeting, after all, with all of the chairs in a square. Besides, there was a breastfeeding woman in church *every week* in one of the churches I attended while growing up -- and she was hardly discreet, though being 12 feet high and backlit I don't think she ought to be blamed for that ... :-) Marna. --------________--------________-------- From gsvaughan at insightbb.com Fri May 9 00:45:37 2003 From: gsvaughan at insightbb.com (George S. Vaughan) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 18:45:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: <3EBAEA3D.EEE2912F@redmaplegrove.org> References: <20030508141707.G26419-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <1052432978.962.8.camel@orac> <3EBAEA3D.EEE2912F@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <6vqlbvouoq88fb2qbcf1hcjvf65le78l0g@4ax.com> On Thu, 08 May 2003 19:37:49 -0400, Marna Nightingale wrote: >It's a question of balance, to me. Nursing mothers need to feed often You got that one. Lisa's appetite is up, her weight is down, and we still have to supplement the baby's dietary needs with formula regularly. --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Fri May 9 00:39:59 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 16:39:59 -0700 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: <20030508141707.G26419-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <014401c315bb$248269a0$31432904@earthlink.net> > >> You and I eat in restaurants, and in various public places. > >> Why should it be somehow different for a baby? > > > > Well, we do eat in restaurants, but outside of communion, I've > > > never eaten in church. > > > > How interesting. The church my parents took me to as a > child frequently had food. > In the church? During SERVICES? > > I don't mean in the church basement or the church reception hall. > > These people were talking about nursing during services, in a > pew. Well, we didn't HAVE a basement or a reception hall. There wasn't even a door between the two connected rooms used for services and the kitchen area. The food was generally sitting out in the kitchen or the patio, but I don't recall any problems about taking it into the other rooms. And I do recall services where food played a part of the service. (Then again, we did some creative ritual writing, usually spearheaded by my father, from whom I apparently get my taste for ritual design) Laura --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Fri May 9 00:53:45 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 19:53:45 -0400 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom References: <20030508141707.G26419-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <1052432978.962.8.camel@orac> <3EBAEA3D.EEE2912F@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <3EBAEDF9.5E02098A@redmaplegrove.org> I ought to let things sit a bit before I hit send, especially when I'm tired. Rosina, if I sounded as though I was trying to be rude to you, please accept my sincere apologies. I most certainly was not. And to be more clear: I actually don't believe in offending people's sense of modesty. What I do think is that a person, any person, ought to be very careful not to elevate squeamishness (which is largely an internal emotional sensation of an unreflective nature) or different understandings of what is and is not proper, into questions of modesty, which is a moral choice. I need to replace my CS Lewis; he talks somewhere about how an offence against modesty, properly, must contain the intent to flaunt oneself. M. --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Fri May 9 01:20:42 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 17:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: <3EBAEA3D.EEE2912F@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <20030508171232.P26419-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Thu, 8 May 2003, Marna Nightingale wrote: > I think "natural bodily function" is a straw man, or a straw breast, > or something. I should hope so. There are plenty of natural bodily functions we don't perform in public. Elimination of wastes. Sexual intercourse of all varieties, which is beautiful and sacred, sometimes, but still not the sort of activity I want to see walking down the street nor wish to be observed doing. (As a bdsm aficionado I wish I DID have what it takes to engage in public sex. Or to be successfully poly. I'd have a much easier time finding partners.) I don't personally object to public breastfeeding in most places. I'm not sure I could do it. I have a thing about not doing activities that cause me to lose my emotional armor or whatever you want to call it where there are people around that I don't implicitly trust with my life. I only engage in public intimacies when I'm blasted (which doesn't happen much since I grew up sorta), and it's a bad idea to get drunk while nursing, I'm sure! > > > These people were talking about nursing during services, in a > > > pew. > > FWIW, given the basic structure of pews, I'm thinking that if you're > not right beside a woman who is nursing and yet you're more than > casually aware of the fact that she is doing so, either she is being > REALLY indiscreet -- or you're not paying enough attention to the > service -- or, possibly, she is the minister. Well, yes. But if people aren't allowed to eat during the service, people aren't allowed to eat during the service. I used to go to a number of services where there were not, in fact, people munching merrily away in the back rows. In that kind of church I really do not think it is objectionable for people to be expected to use a lounge to feed their children no matter how they are feeding them. I'm a ceremonial magician, as you know. When I go to churches it's usually very high-church sorts of places because I am a ritual junkie. It's not a matter of preaching over crying children *shudder* as preaching isn't the central focus of the Christian rites I typically attend when I attend Christian rites. It seems therefore rather odd to me to be feeding babies during ritual worship. Well, unless it's the sort of Wiccan/Reclaiming type thing where people would just DO that anyway. > Besides, there was a breastfeeding woman in church *every week* > in one of the churches I attended while growing up -- and she > was hardly discreet, though being 12 feet high and backlit I > don't think she ought to be blamed for that ... Oh, very funny. ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Fri May 9 01:23:52 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 17:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: <3EBAEDF9.5E02098A@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <20030508172048.V26419-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Thu, 8 May 2003, Marna Nightingale wrote: > What I do think is that a person, any person, ought to be very careful > not to elevate squeamishness (which is largely an internal emotional > sensation of an unreflective nature) or different understandings of > what is and is not proper, into questions of modesty, which is a moral > choice. See, modesty never entered into my thoughts on the matter, mostly because it isn't a value I share. As a Thelemite I see nothing wrong with people flaunting themselves. But I do think that certain kinds of behavior are inappropriate for certain venues, and in places where people don't eat, people don't eat. Although squeamishness IS the basis for many standards of etiquette. There are whole sets of rules about how people are supposed to eat that have to do with not making other people too squeamish to eat themselves. I personally do not eat with people who consider childbirth stories or videos fit topics for dinner conversation/viewing, unless they're willing to respect my squeamishness. ;-) > I need to replace my CS Lewis; he talks somewhere about how an offence > against modesty, properly, must contain the intent to flaunt oneself. Well, I'm probably a walking offense against modesty. ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From lucy at chubb.wattle.id.au Fri May 9 02:31:05 2003 From: lucy at chubb.wattle.id.au (Lucy Chubb) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 11:31:05 +1000 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: <013d01c315a3$0d3a8f60$31432904@earthlink.net> References: <20030508091232.R26419-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <013d01c315a3$0d3a8f60$31432904@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030509013105.GC4433@chubb.wattle.id.au> On Thu, May 08, 2003 at 01:47:33PM -0700, Laura Gallagher wrote: > Joy wrote: > >> You and I eat in restaurants, and in various public places. > >> Why should it be somehow different for a baby? > > > > Well, we do eat in restaurants, but outside of communion, I've > > never eaten in church. > > > > ~malfoy > > How interesting. The church my parents took me to as a child frequently > had food. (Heck, I remember my sweet tooth loving the chance to snag > sugarcubes from the coffee table) There is a church near me that structures it's service around a meal seated at tables. Having that format doesn't mean that those attending don't stop eating or dring, keep quiet, and listen when it is appropriate to do so. I don't know of any biblical evidence that suggests they can't do that, but from the cultural background of many of us it feels rather strange -- I find it unusual, but I can cope with that. (The church I go to doesn't own a building and meets in a university lecture hall). Whether these things are acceptable often depend on our culture and I suspect that many of us don't realize just what variety of cultural differences there are out there (I count myself in that also, even though I've done a reasonable bit of travelling at times). LucyC --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Fri May 9 02:51:17 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 21:51:17 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom, nursing, and nudity OT: References: <20030507.110751.587.281208@webmail03.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <3EBB0981.64FD4A03@redmaplegrove.org> I'm tossing my reply to Kirsten and my reply to Twin together, mostly to see if any connections between the two ends of this thread thus make themselves obvious. I have a vague conviction that it must all be connected somewhere. Kirsten Edwards wrote: > Marna wrote: > "Public nakedness functions as an indicator of the degree to which one > is considered to have control over one's sexuality and body." > > Hmm... By whom. And why? Hmm. OK. I mean, feel free to regard this as speculative. I have a pretty strong sense that there is a connection, that this is an indicator, but it's from observation; I don't have it laid out yet. It's right smack in my field, OTOH, which leads me to suspect that it's probably a good enough intuition to be worth following up on, so I trust the instinct as far as laying it out and seeing if it works, but it's by no means provable at this point. Had I but research grants enough and time... instead, I have the list, which is a wonderful alternative and probably collectively wiser and more knowledgeable than a committee woudl be:-) Anyway, I'm not the least bit convinced that there's anything both causal and entirely reliable going on, or at least that I've got it isolated. What I DO think is that it might be one of those correlations which -- on account of being quite easy to look for -- makes a valuable indicator. Like that thing about beards, skirts, and the stock market, or did that turn out to be an urban legend? I mean, the beards and skirts are *irrelevant*, but if they are reliable then they are reliable. I do think there are some things which are more relevant than that. Lesse, a few very disparate threads. So to speak. :-) OK, Alayne pointed out the issue of requiring dress which restricted normal living. If there is a group which is required to wear *all the time*, kinds of clothing in which they can't work, exercise, travel, stay clean, move freely -- that's a bad indication, I think, for their status and situation. If there is a group whose status is based on the degree to which their wardrobe renders them helpless -- that's a lesser but I think real indicator. In Western culture, until the 20th century, both men and women, but women to a much greater degree, displayed status by wearing clothing in which they could not work -- this probably also says something about the meaning and status of work. Wearing clothing in which you were mobile and able to do heavy work showed your inferior status. Wearing corsets and heavy dresses and flimsy shoes showed your 'pampered' status. So there was no explicit legal penalty for a lot of this, but there were serious consequences. "Dropping class", when not done as a form of youthful rebellion by the privileged, can be a very expensive one-way trip. Also, comfortable clothes were often also those considered 'less modest' -- I mean, to this day, "working girl' is a double entendre. Gender stratification; different modesty rules for men and women; strong versus weak boundaries between men's clothes and women's clothes: my jeans versus Padget's currently hypothetical hot pink shirt... And then there's toleration of difference -- is religious gard acceptable, or not? Where, and how much, and what are the arguments used? How about religious and other non-sexual forms of nudity? (In Canada, at least, we have the issue of "Shuttlecock" burqas, and then there are the Dukhobors.) How well do we make a distinction between sexually-motivated and other-motivated nudity, and on what basis do we make it? How much sexual baggage do we bring to the question of non-sexual nudity? (which is going to end up back at breastfeeding) And how do we deal with really "difficult' difference? Which pushing the bounds of accepted self-exposure generally is. > "...but any place where a) I am legally permitted to walk down the street with my shirt off, whether I actually do so or not, and b) consider it largely safe to do so, is likely -- not guaranteed, but likely -- to be a pretty good place to be." > > Only (b), my dear, is relevant. I'm less sure of that, which is odd since I'm generally less inclined to worry about law and more inclined to worry about practice than you are, I think. Except to say that while having pockets of great tolerance for a particular kind of weirdness in a society is better than not having them, it comes with some serious problems and is still, I think, inferior to rights enshrined in law. Ghetto-ization being one of them -- you can be a particular sort of person, but only in this place, and you are subject to unexpected bouts of repression from outside against which you have no recourse. > But I wasn't joking when I wrote my that precis--or even trying to > be sarcastic-- Ah. My impression, which was obviously wrong and I do apologise, was that you were saying it was a really trivial thing to worry about. Which, obviously, I don't think it is. > only to point out that you were making a summary > judgement of which is the most desirable culture to have, and > that you wanted the law of the land to reinforce it. Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm deeply interested in figuring out how other cultures work, and one of the things that means is trying to 'get' where the hidden virtues might be, or where something I would see as intolerably restrictive might be seen by someone else as just too unimportant to bother worrying about. I like to learn other cultures with the approach that I'm trying to understand well enough to be able to move around in them almost invisibly; that's very cool. And sometimes I might be persuaded to change my own way of thinking and living, if something clicks. But there's a basic context already there for it to 'click' into. When it comes down to it, I'm a Western feminist with very specific culturally rooted ideas about who I am and what I think is okay, and I have to be okay with that if living in a diverse city, nevermind doing cross-cultural work, isn't going to leave me slightly insane. Onward! (puffing slightly) Azalais Malfoy wrote: > See, modesty never entered into my thoughts on the matter, mostly > because it isn't a value I share. Hmmm. I think this might be one of those 'you can take the grrl out of the church...' things for me. It occurs to me that in going from Christian to Pagan I've transferred/translated a lot of my notions about modesty as such into 'not making people unwilling participants in sexual activity.' 'Cause, you know, I'm all about full and free consent. 'Public sex' in the sense that you refer to it has a 'gateway' -- a person isn't likely to be there against their will, or unaware of what's going to happen around them. I will now spend several days trying to figure out how to articulate my feeling that witnessing sexual activity is understood by most people as a form of participation in a way that witnessing other things is not. > As a Thelemite I see nothing wrong with people flaunting themselves. I'm not unfond of flaunting myself, but if I were to articulate the difference it would be that 'flirting' is a publically okay act, even 'flirting with the universe' so to speak, but there is some sort of line there which is for me hard to articulate but easy to detect. > Although squeamishness IS the basis for many standards of > etiquette. There are whole sets of rules about how people are > supposed to eat that have to do with not making other people too > squeamish to eat themselves. Oh, surely. It's a matter of evaluating a bunch of factors including necessity for me. I mean, I can talk about almost anything and eat. But I'm careful not to do so where it's going to upset someone; there simply is no reason to do so. Where there's a good reason to do something that might make someone squeamish, I see that as a bit different. How good a reason and how common it is for people to become squeamish about whatever it is both matter. I mean, I don't think magazines should stop publishing very large full colour pictures of bugs just for me and other people who Do Not Dig Bugs. And maybe it's the corrupting influence of being raised in a medical family, but I recently realized that I was presented at an early age with the firm idea that squeamishness that prevents a person from aiding the distressed, or leads to expressing attitudes that makes their situation worse, or that imposes a burden on people who aren't in any sort of relationship with you that would make it a reasonable burden, is a moral failing. An understandable one, perhaps, but still a failing. We always sort of semi-consciously regarded my uncle, for instance, who faints at the sight of blood and brags on being utterly unable to change a diaper, as a pleasant enough man but a bit of a lightweight. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From lucy at chubb.wattle.id.au Fri May 9 03:07:20 2003 From: lucy at chubb.wattle.id.au (Lucy Chubb) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 12:07:20 +1000 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: <20030508172048.V26419-100000@shell.rawbw.com> References: <3EBAEDF9.5E02098A@redmaplegrove.org> <20030508172048.V26419-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <20030509020720.GD4433@chubb.wattle.id.au> On Thu, May 08, 2003 at 05:23:52PM -0700, Azalais Malfoy wrote: > But I do think that certain kinds of behavior are inappropriate > for certain venues, and in places where people don't eat, people > don't eat. Delurking for a while.... I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but it's worth extending what you've said... What is appropriate behaviour for certain venues can be determined by safety (e.g., don't wear long hair loose where there is lots of high speed machinery in operation -- losing your scalp would make an awful mess besides hurting a lot), ability or disability (e.g., we have wheelchair accessible public busses here and the usual requirement of not entering through the middle door is overridden by people in wheelchairs), and culture. While I share a lot of cultural background with many people here (judging by what is being said), there are a lot of other cultures out there and many times the difference between us are simply that -- different ways of doing things. They are neither better nor worse. While the idea of breastfeeding in church/public may feel uncomfortable to some, there are other cultures whom I expect would wonder why on earth we thought there was a problem. I would personally find breastfeeding in public or in church very hard, but I don't feel at all uneasy about others doing so. Getting back to the eating comment: where it is appropriate to eat is determined by various things -- among which is culture. Where we have problems is when clashing cultures meet. LucyC --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Fri May 9 03:27:25 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 22:27:25 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Male/female names Message-ID: <44.30f317aa.2bec6c0d@aol.com> In a message dated 5/8/2003 7:38:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: What's fair for the goose----think of all the female Evelyns, Vivians, Leslies, Sidneys, and other names-which-used-to-be-masculine you meet nowadays. Also, possibly Barrayar was settled in colonial groups, like the empresario system used in Texas, the main difference being that everybody came at one time. There are enclaves in Texas where the population is predominantly of German descent, or Irish, or Alsatian, and even speak the language of their forefathers' native land at home, nearly two hundred years later. As for the food--well, you find some great German restaurants in San Antonio, which is a sort of central hub for a lot of German-descent settlements. Mary > I totally agree with Fatima here --- Padma as an Indian name, as > far as I've ever heard, is a woman's name. And it's a pretty common name > in South India, where my family's from, so I know quite a few Padmas, all > of whom are female!! It really messed with my mind a lot when I first > started reading Bujold. A totally new world, with lots of new names of > planets, cultures, people -- and a woman's name on a man? Weird. I'm > sure the first few times Padma was mentioned I thought we were talking > about a woman!! Oooops! :-) > But, yes, I'd think the names would stick around, as well as the > food. --------________--------________-------- From Cathal1950 at aol.com Fri May 9 04:07:38 2003 From: Cathal1950 at aol.com (Cathal1950 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 23:07:38 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: LMB] OT-ish: Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes [really OT: ] Message-ID: <12e.29aac4bf.2bec757a@aol.com> Living in Hawaii for ten years I became very fond of Hawaiian clothing. I actually have a stack of mostly Surfline (which prints I chose for The Boys Wear Department at the Waikiki Liberty House all too long ago) shirts and jams we all wore there. To dismember, with the idea of making a Hawaiian quilt out of that pieces. In Brasil the standard men's wear in the evening is a dark, long sleeved shirt with well chosen discrete print. In the winter, such as it was (ad it did freeze in the morning in Sao Paulo) heavier fabric, in summer, a very fine batiste or similar. (Almost always dark trousers unlike Hawaii where white looked well) I am still partial to this. Julian > Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 10:25:39 -0700 > From: Susan Fox-Davis > > Subject: Re: [LMB] OT-ish: Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes [really OT: ] > Reply-To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > Eric Oppen attempts to remember: > " > http://www.mybarong.com/ > > I also admire the ubiquitous Hawaiian shirt, correct for every > occasion. > Susan Fox-Davis/Ma Foxti > > --------________--------________-------- From pnewman at gci.net Fri May 9 05:01:15 2003 From: pnewman at gci.net (Peter Newman) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 20:01:15 -0800 Subject: [LMB] The elusive Barrayaran desi References: <200305082337.h48Nb5r5019461@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EBB280B.1030909@gci.net> Tora K. Smulders-Srinivasan" > At 08:46 PM 5/7/2003, Fatima Raja wrote: > > I've changed the subject line as, wonder of wonders, I'm posting > on-topic. > > Yay! and thanks, now, so am I! :-) > > Peter Newman wrote: > > > After a few centuries, even with a relatively modest rate of > > intermarriage, the European populations from which the Barrayaran > > firsters derive should be fairly ethnically integrated. Then the > time of > > isolation gave several more centuries in which integration > could/would > > have occurred. We know that ethnic differences still exist but they > seem > > to be linguistic, and not 'racial'. Therefore few, if any, > Barrayarans > > will look 'non-white' but all Barrayarans will be somewhat darker > > skinned than many modern Europeans. YMMV. > > Actually, I'm not sure I'd agree with what Peter Newman has > written here. I always assumed (and am only now consciously thinking it > out) that the Barrayaran population was _very_ segregated at some fairly > recent point, otherwise there would not be any ethnic distinctions at > all. Like Beta, Escobar, Jackson's Whole, Cetaganda. All of the Nexus > other than Barrayar seem to have certain planetary distinctions, but > pretty homogenous populations within. Let me try to be clearer. Right now Europe has some people who are darker skinned than others. Over the next few centuries until the time of the firsters most, but not all, of those people will marry lighter skinned people and most, but not all, of their descendants will have a more mixed appearance. Some of these people will go to Barrayar and be working on getting the planet ready for colonization. Suddenly a bad thing will happen and they will be trapped their for centuries. During this time almost all of those who are darker skinned will end up marrying lighter skinned people because, with the limited local gene pool, there will be few dark skinned people to choose from. However this process will happen separately in each of the geographically separated linguistic/national enclaves as I am assuming that the firsters were not all in one physical location on Barrayar when they were cut off. I am assuming that each of the European countries in question will have set up physically separated, but all on the same continent, areas that their nationals are working from. Thus the reason we still have English, Russian, French, and Greek speakers on Barrayar is that these populations started out separated by a few hundred miles. This distance was nothing to firsters with radios and contra gravity but became very relevant once the technology wore out. Over the centuries as the populations grew and the Vor system arose these populations expanded until they touched one another. Thus linguistic differences were preserved but whatever few remnants of ethnic distinction found in future Europeans existed were eliminated. > My assumption of genetic segregation as well as language > segregation is based on the fact that it seems a lot easier to lose > language distinctions to intermarriage and mingling of cultures than it > is to mix genetic characteristics. Therefore, if the more easily lost > language distinctions still exist on Barrayar, then the genetic > distinctions should also still be there. Perhaps that is a false > assumption, but I'm basing that on my own life, I now see. I'm operating from a different premise. Currently England, France, Russia, and Greece display some ethic differences some of which is due to recent immigration. Much of this difference will fade out over the next few centuries but the four countries will still speak their own languages as native languages. Some people from all four countries, most but not all of who look much like their fellow countrymen, will take jobs on Barrayar. When they get stuck their they will marry and have kids with people from their national 'base camp' area. Ethnic characteristics, to the extent they remain, will pay little part in most of these decisions. YMMV. > I was born in India and grew up in the USA and have the typical > ethnic Indian appearance. I'm married to a Belgian with blonde hair and > blue eyes. We don't have any babies yet, but our children will almost > certainly have a mix of our features and hopefully be fluent in > Dutch/Flemish (my husband's native tongue) as well as English. However, > since I myself am not very fluent (or is that like slightly pregnant, you > are fluent or not?) in Telugu and Tamil, I despair as to whether our > children will learn enough to converse with their Indian relatives that > don't speak English. > > In any case, I feel like the _languages_ will be lost a lot > sooner than the black hair, the dark brown eyes, and the brown skin. In > this case, if my husband and I continue to live in English speaking > countries, Telegu, Tamil, and Dutch/Flemish will all probably overwhelmed > by English. I consider it very unlikely that our grandchildren will > speak any of them except English with fluency. Right. But if your grandchildren live in Russian speaking, French speaking, or Greek speaking areas they'll probably speak those languages as their native tongues. Gradually most, but not all of, your descendants will come to look much like who live near them. Those who get trapped on Barrayar and have fewer marriage choices will complete this process. > Therefore, I picture Barrayar as having different, fairly > segregated areas where different cultures/ethnic groups live. Hmmm.... > different countries on Barrayar? I guess that's sort of what I was > thinking. So I'd also think that the genetic backgrounds would not be > all that mixed either. Though all of this would then change as galactic > influences were felt. I agree totally. However I think that within the four linguistic areas people will marry each other with almost no concern for skin color. > I totally agree with Fatima here --- Padma as an Indian name, as > far as I've ever heard, is a woman's name. And it's a pretty common name > in South India, where my family's from, so I know quite a few Padmas, all > of whom are female!! It really messed with my mind a lot when I first > started reading Bujold. A totally new world, with lots of new names of > planets, cultures, people -- and a woman's name on a man? Weird. I'm > sure the first few times Padma was mentioned I thought we were talking > about a woman!! Oooops! :-) I figured that Padma gradually became a mans name (or more likely both a mans and woman's name) because of the Barrayaran traditions of ancestor reverence/worship. We know that some Barrayaran males (Vor) are given their grandfathers names. I figured that some 3rd and 4th sons who couldn't be named for their grandfathers, as their older brothers had already taken those names, were named for their _grandmothers_. Thus Padma became an acceptable name for a man. Our Padma VorPatril had a grandfather who had a grandfather who had a grandfather who was named for his grandmother. > But, yes, I'd think the names would stick around, as well as the > food. I think that might depend on what the firsters had available to grow. If all their curry was already processed than they might not have been able to grow any more. Some spices would have been lost and with them some dishes that require those spices. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Fri May 9 05:22:41 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 00:22:41 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The elusive Barrayaran desi References: <200305082337.h48Nb5r5019461@lists.herald.co.uk> <3EBB280B.1030909@gci.net> Message-ID: <029f01c315e2$a29bd660$610d4b43@LAPTOP> Padma is a man's name in Gordon R. Dickson's work. Perhaps that influenced Lois. -- Paula Lieberman --------________--------________-------- From mike at dendarii.co.uk Fri May 9 08:24:09 2003 From: mike at dendarii.co.uk (Michael Bernardi) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 07:24:09 BST Subject: [LMB] Lois McMaster Bujold Mailing List Weekly FAQ FAQ Message-ID: <31901@dendarii.co.uk> Last-Modified: 5 November 2002 Version: 2.0.2 Being a Pointer to where to find Answers to Frequently Asked Questions ====================================================================== This document was compiled by Michael Bernardi, to allow subscribers to the Lois-Bujold mailing list to easily find where the FAQs are. Having this FAQ posted weekly to the list then allows the posting of the OTHER FAQs to be every two months and thus reduce list traffic. Three FAQs have been developed since this list was created in October 1994. The Bio FAQ has been deleted, as all the information previously given here, can be found at "The Bujold Nexus" in the "Author Info" and "Book Info" sections. This document was originally created in December 1998. The FAQs ======== Lois McMaster Bujold Mailing List Administrivia FAQ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_admin.html Last Updated: 29 October 2002 Explains how to join and use the Lois-Bujold mailing list, hosted at http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold Lois McMaster Bujold Mailing List FAQ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_lst.html Last Updated: 29 October 2002 This document attempts to answer Frequently Asked Questions which occur on the Mailing List about Lois McMaster Bujold and her work. These are the questions that occur on list regularly like "Where can I get "Dreamweaver's Dilemma"? Now includes the Off-topic Discussions and Excessive Quoting FAQ. Lois McMaster Bujold List PLOT Frequently Asked Questions ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_faq.html Last Updated: 29 October 2002 This document attempts to answer Frequently Asked Questions which occur on the Mailing List about Plot lines that occur in the work of Lois McMaster Bujold. This includes answers from Lois herself. The Bujold Nexus: The Lois McMaster Bujold Homepage ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.com Last Updated: 5 November 2002 This is the Official site to find information about Lois McMaster Bujold on the Web. Lois has provided some information herself, and other material has come from other fans. The Bujold Nexus Overflow Site ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Bujold.html Last Updated: 28 October 2002 This contains all the stuff that isn't really appropriate at the main site. ie fan fiction, fan art, photos, and filk. Please send details of any material such material to the address indicated. Note I am not responsible for the mail server hardware OR software. Both these are under the control of Mel Harper . Any feedback on this post cheerfully received by Michael Bernardi . -- Michael Bernardi mike_at_dendarii.co.uk --------________--------________-------- From carosue at centurytel.net Fri May 9 08:09:54 2003 From: carosue at centurytel.net (House of Unruly Fish) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 01:09:54 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hear Tolkien read in Elvish! Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030509010525.00b73dd0@mail.so.centurytel.net> Wow! Check out this article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/3008551.stm There is a link to let you hear the sound files the article talks about. Tolkien reading his own work, and several others including Wodehouse, Kipling, Tennyson and Browning! Way cool! Susan the Neon Nurse ++++++++++++++++++++++carosue at centurytel.net+++++++++++++++++++++ --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Fri May 9 08:25:28 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 08:25:28 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Filk? (WAS:- Freedom, nursing, and nudity OT:) In-Reply-To: <200305090404.h49445r5020338@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030509082008.00b00110@pop.luna.co.uk> Marna (accidently, I'm sure) misprinted:- >(This List is) wiser and more knowledgeable >than a committee woudl be. This has triggered a conviction that it needs to be set to music - something bucolic and boisterous, probably - but I don't have the inspiration or skill. Anyone? James - who'd pronounce it wooodle and who is also impressed with the content of Marna's post and depressed that time pressure makes it impossible for him to write the long detailed response that [A] it deserves and [B] he would like to --------________--------________-------- From mckeownb at optusnet.com.au Fri May 9 11:19:58 2003 From: mckeownb at optusnet.com.au (Beatrice McKeown) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 20:19:58 +1000 Subject: [LMB] OT: A computer game Message-ID: <00a601c31614$8cf7c170$80901cd3@Beatrice> I don't know if any of you are into adventure gaming on the computer. But a friend of mine - Peter Hewitt who lives over here in Queensland has just issued his second computer game. Magnetic. It's a puzzle based game - where often you work out one game which leads you to another. If any of you are interested his website is at www.mulawa.net where you can also find out about his first game Xiama. I can thoroughly recommend it and it would be ice to see some of you join us on the beach :) (PS I don't think its too expensive and the Australian dollar is still quite low against other currency even though it does seem to be heading upwards.) --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Fri May 9 14:13:14 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 14:13:14 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Real Player Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030509141150.00adeba0@pop.luna.co.uk> I am told that Real Player is mostly spyware. Can anyone confirm or refute this? Can I listen to ram files on anything else? James - who wants to hear Tolkien --------________--------________-------- From Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com Fri May 9 15:13:39 2003 From: Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com (Tom Vinson) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 09:13:39 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tornadoes in Oklahoma and Kansas Message-ID: It got pretty nasty in central Oklahoma/southeastern Kansas yesterday evening. ISTR there used to be a list member near Oklahoma City, but I forget his name. Anyone directly affected? Tom "Why let your life revolve around the weather when the weather can revolve around you?" -- Emily Kaitz, "Tornado Season in Tulsa" --------________--------________-------- From Pouncer at aol.com Fri May 9 15:44:24 2003 From: Pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 10:44:24 EDT Subject: [LMB] ot: ebay Message-ID: <8.3770fb03.2bed18c8@aol.com> From: Scott Raun Reply-To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Somewhere there is a list of listie auction handles, > unfortunately, probably on the bujold-list site which is down, and > I haven't found my original. <> I'm AltPouncer, oddly enough. Moot, I think, regarding ARC bids. But if you all have other collectables you think I might be interested in, don't feel bad about dropping me a note. --------________--------________-------- From Pouncer at aol.com Fri May 9 16:17:37 2003 From: Pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 11:17:37 EDT Subject: [LMB] Issues Message-ID: <114.23159bff.2bed2091@aol.com> From: Marna Nightingale >Guilty. I think that people who object to breastfeeding in public >suffer from a socially-induced inability to make reasonable >distinctions. And from cervical vertabrae issues. HEY! I didn't tease YOU! >There is ALWAYS > >somewhere else you could be looking. ... > > >It's reasonable for a person to feel or express discomfort in a polite > >way. These are sort of related, yes? A rather ostentatious show of looking the other way , perhaps including a full hip-shoulder-head turn allowing one's neck to remain stiff, may be sufficient signal that one's standards of conduct are different. (Presumed "better" by the person doing the signaling, of course, but that value judgement is implied in the decision to send the signal. Nobody makes an effort to signal "my standards are lower/worse than yours". Wonder if Dr Whom cares to comment on the origins of the expression "stiff necked"? Almost on topic, that, Flitchr Gaia to Miles and all. > > It's reasonable and even laudable for people who feel strongly about > the issue to have these sorts of discussions, like we're doing now, at > times when no actual babies are being fed and tempers are relatively > calm. > Amen. Good practice for the other times, too. --------________--------________-------- From carosue at centurytel.net Fri May 9 16:40:01 2003 From: carosue at centurytel.net (House of Unruly Fish) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 09:40:01 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Real Player In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030509141150.00adeba0@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030509093645.02ed7580@mail.so.centurytel.net> At 02:13 PM 5/9/2003 +0100, you wrote: >I am told that Real Player is >mostly spyware. Can anyone >confirm or refute this? I don't know for sure about this, James. It can be a real resource hog, but why I don't know. I use it a lot though. >Can I listen to ram files on >anything else? If you could just download the file, you might be able to play it in something else. I play .avi files in my Windows Media because I don't like the other one. (Quicktime?) >James - who wants to hear Tolkien I believe they are releasing all these and more on a CD, which would be a longer and slower and more costly option, yet still an option.... Susan the Neon Nurse, sorry to tease ++++++++++++++++++++++carosue at centurytel.net+++++++++++++++++++++ --------________--------________-------- From Pouncer at aol.com Fri May 9 16:54:09 2003 From: Pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 11:54:09 EDT Subject: [LMB] freedom again, still ot: Message-ID: <119.232fc415.2bed2921@aol.com> Marna again > Except to say that while having pockets of great tolerance for a > particular kind of weirdness in a society is better than not having > them, it comes with some serious problems and is still, I think, > inferior to rights enshrined in law. > I respectfully suggest that having a long laundry list of legislatively or con stitutionally ennumerated rights rather dilutes the value of each item on the list, makes it harder to secure new rights and makes it harder to discard "obsolete rights" in the face of new threats -- as well as ceding original authority for "rights" to a inherently capricious politcal process. On the other hand, the Freedom to Leave could, IMO, profitably be secured among the basic list -- a less poetic and perhaps more practical statement of what is meant by "Pursuit of Happiness". As for pockets, I'd rather set things up (God knows how, I'm not a MacArthur, much less a Madison -- though both are thinkers whose thinking I would hope is much studied right about now -- and Hi Doug Muir and what does it take to get you to weigh in on the general topic of "freedom" in this ever-so-topical moment of time?) such that pocket communities are allowed by the larger jurisdictions to impose, only upon themselves, whatever additional restrictions they think necessary to health, safety, morality, good order, and making a safe place to raise kids. If that means all males over 13 MUST, by local ordinance, wear a hat, fine. If it means no bare skin exposed between ankle and neck, fine again. No beer on Thursdays, no beef on Fridays, no amplified music... whatever. So long as the rules are local and the folks in the community are reasonably free to pack up and leave, I think free peoples have the right to impose any d*mn stupid restriction upon themselves that they can, under legal socially democratic republican electorial processes, get into the books. And if Shakers, nudists, Jews, Mormons, or San Franciscans want to form communities with somewhat different restrictions and intolerances than the whitebread rules of Asbury Park, well let every one of them go for it. (Of course, I think these sub-national jurisdictions should never grow larger than, oh, say, Maryland in, say, 1850. Having all California or Texas or Quebec conform to the standards of their urban majorities is a bit ridiculous. Between cities and nations a reasonable territorial/provincial/state jurisdictional body ought secure the common interests of freeholders and sub-urban municipalities -- but those interests, I think, are rather limited.) --------________--------________-------- From Pouncer at aol.com Fri May 9 17:02:42 2003 From: Pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 12:02:42 EDT Subject: [LMB] Ivan's looks Message-ID: <18a.19b29f0c.2bed2b22@aol.com> Eric and others speculating about skin color on Barrayar -- do we have any indication that UV pressures (lack of) on melanin production would drive the overall population one way or another? --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Fri May 9 17:13:40 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 12:13:40 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Issues References: <114.23159bff.2bed2091@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EBBD38C.BF495BF0@redmaplegrove.org> Pouncer at aol.com wrote: > > From: Marna Nightingale > > >Guilty. I think that people who object to breastfeeding in public > >suffer from a socially-induced inability to make reasonable > >distinctions. And from cervical vertabrae issues. > > HEY! I didn't tease YOU! Lemme just slop some jam on this foot of mine here... > These are sort of related, yes? A rather ostentatious show of looking the > other way , perhaps including a full hip-shoulder-head turn allowing one's > neck to remain stiff, may be sufficient signal that one's standards of > conduct are different. Yep. And for as long as we have such a wide variety of competing standards in play, there will be a great need for ways of expressing disapproval without escalating into open hostility. Marna, who also cultivates the Appalled Stare, herself. --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Fri May 9 17:13:41 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 11:13:41 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: names In-Reply-To: <3EBA832C.19939.2860653@localhost> References: <20030508163122.46185.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> <38A60BEBEF60234CB599A1FD4BE466E5815608@LNXBETEXCH00.lexisn e xis.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030509111248.02e06ab0@mail.iqcisp.com> At 04:17 PM 5/8/2003 -0500, jparish at siue.edu wrote: >Joyeuse wrote: > > > Hi, Joy, it's Joy! I noticed that my new initials might cause some > > confusion about the same time you did, and I'm wondering if I should > > switch back to my full name, Joyce, just to keep everyone un-confused. > > Or we could duke it out over who gets to be Joy and who gets to be > > The Other Joy. :-) > > > > (After 3 years of being "the Other Other Isabeau" in my local SCA > > group, I am resigned to my fate.) > >In Pratchett's latest, _The Wee Free Men_ (and my thanks to whoever - >Louann? - mentioned it onlist), there is a character called "No'-as-big- >as-Medium-Sized-Jock-but-bigger-than-Wee-Jock-Jock". Apparently >there are very few acceptable names among the Nac Mac Feegle. (This >character is by no means the first to have borne that epithet, BTW.) From the man who a few books ago brought us Medium Dave Lilywhite, a member of a large criminal underground that already had a Big Dave, a Little Dave, a Wee Davi, etc. Louann --------________--------________-------- From marna at redmaplegrove.org Fri May 9 17:29:13 2003 From: marna at redmaplegrove.org (Marna Nightingale) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 12:29:13 -0400 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom References: <20030508171232.P26419-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <3EBBD730.CD7C7896@redmaplegrove.org> Azalais Malfoy wrote: > Well, yes. But if people aren't allowed to eat during the > service, people aren't allowed to eat during the service. True, but on the other hand it's not unreasonable to make a distinction between people who can and will wait to eat and people who can and won't. Especially as, to me, having people get up and leave and come back, especially if they are not at the back of the church and at the end of a pew, is MUCH more disruptive. I find that utterly impossible to ignore. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Fri May 9 18:18:31 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:18:31 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom, nursing, and nudity References: <20030507.110751.587.281208@webmail03.lax.untd.com> <3EBB0981.64FD4A03@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <03b201c3164f$049b9b40$610d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marna Nightingale" > OK, Alayne pointed out the issue of requiring dress which restricted > normal living. > > If there is a group which is required to wear *all the time*, kinds of > clothing in which they can't work, exercise, travel, stay clean, move > freely -- that's a bad indication, I think, for their status and > situation. > > If there is a group whose status is based on the degree to which their > wardrobe renders them helpless -- that's a lesser but I think real > indicator. In Western culture, until the 20th century, both men and > women, but women to a much greater degree, displayed status by wearing > clothing in which they could not work -- this probably also says > something about the meaning and status of work. > > Wearing clothing in which you were mobile and able to do heavy work > showed your inferior status. Wearing corsets and heavy dresses and > flimsy shoes showed your 'pampered' status. > There are at least three different dynamics in effect: 1. Demonstration of "we don't have to do that, and we're proving it by attire and grooming which is nearly impossible for anyone who does physical labor" -- the long fingernails in upper class China was an example of that. 2. Social climbers aping the style of (1) above. Societies with a lot of that, can become economically unhealthy.... 3. Intentional restriction of a class to -prevent- them from changing their status/gaining influence/exercising influence (women's clothing, footbinding to a degree, etc.) There are societies, as noted, which work clothes and clothing appropriate to certain functions, became status symbols, situations analogous to that sort of thing above, happened, as regards, > So there was no explicit legal penalty for a lot of this, but there > were serious consequences. "Dropping class", when not done as a form > of youthful rebellion by the privileged, can be a very expensive > one-way trip. > It's not quite that simple, though -- people get identified by their clothing, and where they physically are -- e.g., Deb Geisler's trick of sitting in the student seating and having someone else stand up at the front of the class, in the initial lecture in the class which Deb was the professor for, causing the students to assume that that other person was the professor.... > Also, comfortable clothes were often also those considered 'less > modest' -- I mean, to this day, "working girl' is a double entendre. > The Northern European attitude that affluent households women could/should be "women of leisure" is partly responsible for that. Families in which women had to work for economic necessity, were regarded as not socially something to aspire to.... so "working women" were looked down on and deprecated and held to be part of the lower, undesirable classes. Being affluent, meant consipicuous consumption and lives of leisure, given over to frivolity and fun and Society and such, not -work-. Different values exists in much of the Nexus, though not mostly on Barrayar; consider Ekaterin's position when initially met, and the dissuasion her husband had about her having any interest, even in a career of her own other than wife of minor functionary. > Gender stratification; different modesty rules for men and women; > strong versus weak boundaries between men's clothes and women's > clothes: my jeans versus Padget's currently hypothetical hot pink shirt... Often the "boundaries" are more in people's minds, regarding appropriate colors and cuts. Georgian England men's clothing were -extremely- colorful and intricate, for example; the current utterly BORING (to my mind) men's formal wear, historically is funereal or worse, and it's BORING.... > And then there's toleration of difference -- is religious gard > acceptable, or not? Where, and how much, and what are the arguments > used? How about religious and other non-sexual forms of nudity? (In > Canada, at least, we have the issue of "Shuttlecock" burqas, and then > there are the Dukhobors.) > Just more Fashion Police stuff, and it goes back all the way to prehistory, probably, complaining about the clothing worn by others and its lack of modesty compred to their own (see Ibn Fadlan's horror at the status of women in what today is Ukraine) and bizarreness/etc. etc. etc. Consider Barrayar's attitudes about Betans, and vice versa.... > How well do we make a distinction between sexually-motivated and > other-motivated nudity, and on what basis do we make it? > It's culturally dependent. The showing of a woman's -ankle- in purdah/burqa/chador/veil countries is considered prurient, but not here. There are cultures where women's breast all hang out, so what, versus the hubbub about it in most of the USA. Beta doesn't care in the Nexus, Barrayar does.... > How much sexual baggage do we bring to the question of non-sexual > nudity? (which is going to end up back at breastfeeding) > Again, it's cultural.... and North America isn't the whole world. > And how do we deal with really "difficult' difference? Which pushing > the bounds of accepted self-exposure generally is. > Once again, it's all cultural. Amazonian natives are mostly nude, and have a different set of social rules about what constitutes proper versus improper attire -- what there is might be limited, but there are still a set of rules about it! > > "...but any place where a) I am legally permitted to walk down the street with my shirt off, whether I actually do so or not, and b) consider it largely safe to do so, is likely -- not guaranteed, but likely -- to be a pretty good place to be." > > > > Only (b), my dear, is relevant. > > I'm less sure of that, which is odd since I'm generally less inclined > to worry about law and more inclined to worry about practice than you > are, I think. > Yet again, it depends on where. "Mad Dogs and Englishmen Go out in the Midday Sun" has exposition about how Britons keep all covered in climates where the natives, go substantially bared, and the the natives consider the British insane. And in the Nexus, Barrayarans are considered insane, and then entire planet, crocked. > Except to say that while having pockets of great tolerance for a > particular kind of weirdness in a society is better than not having > them, it comes with some serious problems and is still, I think, > inferior to rights enshrined in law. > Law tends to reflect culture, though a lot of places activists make laws with the express intention of changing the culture, to what they prefer. > Ghetto-ization being one of them -- you can be a particular sort of > person, but only in this place, and you are subject to unexpected > bouts of repression from outside against which you have no recourse. > Or leave.... or immigrate to places where the rules are attractive. Athos wanted immigrants, but was the recipient of few, because its rule and culture wasn't particularly attractive to people from the rest of the Nexus. Barrayar was also a place not attractive for attracting many immigrants. Cordelia went there to get -away- from the treatment that Beta was giving her, because of Aral, as much as she went there to be with Aral. Had it not been for Aral, she never would have set foot on the planet, much less moved there. I wonder, though, why Prince Xav's wife ever settled on Barrayar.... > Azalais Malfoy wrote: > > 'Public sex' in the sense that you refer to it has a 'gateway' -- a > person isn't likely to be there against their will, or unaware of > what's going to happen around them. > > I will now spend several days trying to figure out how to articulate > my feeling that witnessing sexual activity is understood by most > people as a form of participation in a way that witnessing other > things is not. > Hmm. There are strong elements of culture there, too; ancient history had the hieros gamos, which was celebrated publically, and even into medieval times public bedding of bride and groom.... and then there are voyeurs, peep shows, etc. etc. etc. > > As a Thelemite I see nothing wrong with people flaunting themselves. > > I'm not unfond of flaunting myself, but if I were to articulate the > difference it would be that 'flirting' is a publically okay act, even > 'flirting with the universe' so to speak, but there is some sort of > line there which is for me hard to articulate but easy to detect. > > > Although squeamishness IS the basis for many standards of > > etiquette. There are whole sets of rules about how people are > > supposed to eat that have to do with not making other people too > > squeamish to eat themselves. > This begins to remind me of James White's Hospital Station stories, and how one of the protagonists is reduced to eating lettuce, between having tapes of alien surgeons permanently living in his head, and eating with members of other species, and having all those food taboos and such affecting him thereby. > Oh, surely. It's a matter of evaluating a bunch of factors including > necessity for me. I mean, I can talk about almost anything and eat. > But I'm careful not to do so where it's going to upset someone; there > simply is no reason to do so. > > Where there's a good reason to do something that might make someone > squeamish, I see that as a bit different. > How good a reason and how common it is for people to become squeamish > about whatever it is both matter. > "Squeamish" might not be the best word for it; squick applies, too. "Squeamish" denotes a lack of intestinal fortitude on the part of the person, with the idea that they're being unnecessarily fussy and that they should "just get over" it. There might be religious scruples involved, or other philosophical ones, or considering it -wrong- -- is it "squeamishness" that there are people who don't eat/object to eating dog, cat, and/or homo sapiens, or are there other factors at work? And what about eating easily-contaminated animals like shellfish? There have been cultures that considered all of those food sources (the Aztecs were cannibals and the Spanish reported that the markets of what today is Mexico City, sold butchered people parts the way that European markets had butchered sheep, goat, and pig sections), but most North American strongly oppose the idea of eating dog or cat or other people, and consider it utterly immoral and unacceptable. > I mean, I don't think magazines should stop publishing very large full > colour pictures of bugs just for me and other people who Do Not Dig > Bugs. > One of the purposes of the bug pictures is to be able to identify "What Is That Bug Which Is on My Rosebush?, and should I/how can I KILL it?!" Hmm, I wonder if there are superbugs in the Nexus. We already know how Horrible Helda feels about bio contamination.... > And maybe it's the corrupting influence of being raised in a medical > family, but I recently realized that I was presented at an early age > with the firm idea that squeamishness that prevents a person from > aiding the distressed, or leads to expressing attitudes that makes > their situation worse, or that imposes a burden on people who aren't > in any sort of relationship with you that would make it a reasonable > burden, is a moral failing. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Fri May 9 18:51:38 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:51:38 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Real Player References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030509141150.00adeba0@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <03cf01c31653$a66e29c0$610d4b43@LAPTOP> [[Rant alert] Real Networks the last time I looked had one of the STUPIDEST systems going for tracking usage -- the idea is pay for play AND the Recording Industries Assocation of America and Motion Picture Association of America, (wherein for the latter lying thug enforcer mouthpiece Jack Valenti tells the universe how because people aren't buying the pap schlock turned out by those organizations' members OBVIOUSLY every end user is a thief to be convicted of intellectual property theft and treated as guilty of stealing from MPAA members and MPAA via the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and the rest of the fascist end-user-is-a-THIEF legislation MPAA got through/wants to get passes gets to tap end users' computers and copy information to use as criminality proof AND even destroy the end user's computer system -- no, I NOT making that up. Look up eg. www.eff.org ....) , and they put "security" in in particularly inane ways. And due to being good buddies with MPAA and RIAA and their "we get to rampage through everyone's computer looking for alleged Stolen Intellectual Property and anything our software doesn't like we will copy to OUR systems and exterminate on YOUR system"..... I don't use Real Jukebox, and am careful with Real Player. There is an application a friend gave me a CD-ROM with the software on it of, which he says will play material encoded by RealServer. I'm not sure where the disc is. I will try to look up- the name of the software for you. [Real's Stupid System involved making and KEEPING contact with some 3rd party server during the entire session of streaming content delivery. This is -stupid- because there's no need for such continuous connection, and it's a huge waste of bandwidth -- make the content, identify that the end user is authorized, have the -server- serving up the content report to the authorization and auditing system at the end of the of session what the user's downloaded, how long the session was, etc. Real's system, last I looked at is, was utterly stupid and inefficent and idiotic...] MPAA and RIAA are malicious greedy control freak scum; I think Real is mostly lame.... -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "James M. BRYANT, G4CLF" To: Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 9:13 AM Subject: [LMB] OT: Real Player > I am told that Real Player is > mostly spyware. Can anyone > confirm or refute this? > > Can I listen to ram files on > anything else? > > James - who wants to hear Tolkien > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Fri May 9 19:01:20 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 11:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom In-Reply-To: <3EBBD730.CD7C7896@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <20030509105535.B47013-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Fri, 9 May 2003, Marna Nightingale wrote: > Especially as, to me, having people get up and leave and come > back, especially if they are not at the back of the church and > at the end of a pew, is MUCH more disruptive. I find that > utterly impossible to ignore. It depends, for me. People leaving noises irritate me much less than slurping, which has been mentioned several times during this thread--and you can't really tell babies not to slurp. I understand that there are reasons why people might have to leave a service precipitously, and given what some of them are I try not to speculate--they range from baby-related issues to the life-or-death phone call to the gastrointestinal problem I'd rather not know about. Of course, those who know a baby may suddenly demand food, or who know that their gut is off, or who are expecting an important call about someone's life-or-death surgery on the cellphone they've politely turned to 'vibrate' usually do sit in the back or near the end of pews. Don't they? ;-) At the Gnostic Mass we try to seat them near the door, if they tell us they need such seating. ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From vlecuyer at ksu.edu Fri May 9 19:52:37 2003 From: vlecuyer at ksu.edu (Victoria L'Ecuyer) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 13:52:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Maps & Oddball LMB Reference References: <200305072016.h47KG2r5013266@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EBBF8F5.123BB0F3@ksu.edu> On Fri, 2 May 2003, Mandos wrote: #Different people work in different ways. I know a number of people who like #to trace the story along a map and it helps them keep track of what is going #on, other hate to see maps in books and never use them. Mark A. Mandel wrote: Yup. People with good sense of direction and location -- as with other "senses" -- often have trouble understanding how anyone can NOT see what's so clear to them. Me: As I understand it, the ability to think 3-dimensionally is rare [1]. Which is interesting to me, because I can, and I'm also a visually oriented learner. As to maps in books, I don't need them, but I do like them. Instead of building the map in my head as I go, I can study it once or twice and "refer" to it as I read. Which means I can concentrate on the other details. More than once I've drawn a map in my head and found the author's version later. In every case my view was different. That is what happened with the Curse of Chalion. My map was much more narrow than the one Lois provides. The added distances made certain parts of the plot more urgent. As for the ones who don't like using maps, they don't have to look at them. Victoria [1] This can have odd consequences. I've known people who design building and open spaces without drawing perspectives of what the finished product will look like in relation to the surrounding structures/elements in situ when complete. Very bad. My main example of this lack/oversight seems to be a card-carrying member of "the idea of the month club." Open-air structures designed for a southern California climate do not work when built on the Kansas prairie. Trust me on this. --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Fri May 9 20:42:07 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 12:42:07 -0700 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom/really re nursing Message-ID: Azalais Malfoy wrote: Fri, 9 May 2003 11:01:20 -0700 (PDT) >On Fri, 9 May 2003, Marna Nightingale wrote: >>Especially as, to me, having people get up and leave and come >>back, especially if they are not at the back of the church and > >at the end of a pew, is MUCH more disruptive. I find that >>utterly impossible to ignore. >It depends, for me. People leaving noises irritate me much less than slurping, which has been mentioned several times during this thread--and you can't really tell babies not to slurp. < Hi, all! Weighing in momentarily on a topic that has been much discussed, and in a very interesting debate, over the last several days. As someone who nursed one child for 2 1/2 years and the other for well under 2 months, I have some experience in this. Generally speaking, babies don't slurp while nursing (think LEECH; and I don't think they slurp, either ). One often has to use a little finger to break the seal, so to speak. It isn't so much the nursing part, it's getting there that may be disruptive in a church service: having to soothe the crying baby, then arrange clothing, adjust child, etc. The actual nursing portion is often extremely quiet (unless you have one that decides that THAT wasn't what s/he wanted, either!) and discreet. I almost never notice that a mother is nursing in public. Especially, with the drapes that are often used. I didn't nurse in church, because my babies were too noisy to be in church, at all. They were in the nursery and then Sunday school. When I started out nursing, I did it in private, then became more public about it. No muss, no fuss. Nature can be very tidy. It has never been offensive to me to see a mother nursing in public anywhere. Interestingly, no one has mentioned the urgency of nursing for the mother. I understand that this isn't true for all mothers, but for many, when the baby indicates a need to nurse, the physiological response is an immediate "letdown" response. One minute there's no milk there, the next, there is a *pressing* need to have the baby latch on immediately because there is a high-pressure flow that needs to come out, RIGHT NOW! And, quite frankly, you could care less who is around, unless maybe they have some assistance to offer . So, for some mothers, the need to nurse becomes immediate and urgent, also. There isn't necessarily time to look for just the right, private, out-of-the-way spot. Just offering another take on the issue. Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper fan of LaLeche League. Happy Mother's Day to all who are one (kids, pets), have one, or act as one to those around them :) Happy Europe Day to our listees across the big water. I heard about it on NPR this morning. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --------________--------________-------- From joasia at fandom.art.pl Fri May 9 21:16:34 2003 From: joasia at fandom.art.pl (Jo'Asia) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 22:16:34 +0200 Subject: [LMB] TCoC in Poland Message-ID: <1317343085.20030509221634@galaxy.uci.agh.edu.pl> As a member of a Polish netzine Esensja (for people interested in looking at sites in strange languages URL in signature) we have an acces to the promotional materials from some Polish publishers. This day we have found out that Proszynski i Spolka is going to publish _The Curse of Chalion_, I think in June (about half of the books are May releases, so it is logical that the other half would be June ones). I do not know the name of translator yet, and there is no a good cover to show. It probably means that the cover is not printed yet and this is good. Why is it good? Because on the cover we can read: Lois McMaster Bujold Klatwa nad Chalionem Czesc dziewiata cyklu Barrayar Where the last line means "volume nine of the Barrayar cycle" At least they got the name right ;> [1] Luckily the blurb printed next to the unfortunate cover - as spoiler-free as blurb can be and 'royesse' got translated as 'rojessa' which is the best translation I can think of. Jo'Asia [1] I have somewhere a magazine with the cover of forthoming book, also by Proszynski, with the name on it "Louis MacMasters Bujold" IIRC... -- __.-=-. joasia at fandom.art.pl Joanna Slupek .-=-.__ --<()> http://bujold.fantastyka.net/ http://esensja.pl/ <()>-- .__.'| ...................................................... |'.__. This novel wasn't released - it escaped! --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Fri May 9 23:11:59 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 17:11:59 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Questing Paladin Update Message-ID: <20030509221159.GF6922@fireopal.org> OK, I've got all the names I've collected up at http://www.fireopal.org/~sraun/lmb_pos_auction.html. My objectives for the weekend include doing something to mask the e-mail addresses from the spam-bots, and to get shipping order list created, as opposed to the quasi-alphabetical order its in right now. Please let me know if there's anything obvious missing or incorrect? -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From WaWenri at aol.com Fri May 9 23:21:53 2003 From: WaWenri at aol.com (WaWenri at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 18:21:53 EDT Subject: [LMB] OT: From Bart - FW: EJECT EJECT EJECT Message-ID: <184.1aaf2592.2bed8401@aol.com> Jagoda, Lynette K writes: > > I am sharing the whole thing because I am too happy and busy to try and > edit it. > Lynette <---- > > ----FW: EJECT EJECT EJECT--- resulting in getting home sooner> Thirty-two years ago I was stationed at Upper Heyford RAFB. I had been there for 6 months and though I was supposed to be working on missile guidance systems, they had never finished building the missile shop. Instead I worked on whatever jobs I was "plugged into." I was security police, special weapons tech, emergency destruction team (interesting work with det. cord and shaped charges) and I filled sandbags (about 20 tons worth). Then they told us that the missile work was being moved to Lakenheath RAFB which already had a missile shop. I could get out 4 month early or extend for 6 month and go to a closed base in Turkey. I got out in June. Bill Wenrich --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Fri May 9 23:24:43 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 15:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Questing Paladin Update In-Reply-To: <20030509221159.GF6922@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <20030509152409.F25793-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Fri, 9 May 2003, Scott Raun wrote: > OK, I've got all the names I've collected up at > http://www.fireopal.org/~sraun/lmb_pos_auction.html. > > My objectives for the weekend include doing something to mask the > e-mail addresses from the spam-bots, and to get shipping order list > created, as opposed to the quasi-alphabetical order its in right now. > > Please let me know if there's anything obvious missing or incorrect? I do not want my full real name (K. A. M.) listed on a web page, please. It attracts my ex-husband. Not the nice one. ~malfoy (for a reason) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Fri May 9 23:09:09 2003 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 18:09:09 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Baen CD-ROM Library Volume 2 Message-ID: <003901c31677$9dfb5780$3201a8c0@mbaxis> Although I plan on buying Ringo's _Hell's Faire_, I am going to wait for it to come out in paperback. This means, though, that I am going to miss out on the CD - unless someone who has bought or is planning on buying the hardcover with the CD is willing to make a copy for me. I am assuming, of course, that Baen's policy with this CD is the same as it was with the last one; i.e. that you may copy it and give away the copies. If you are willing to do this (and have a CD burner), I will gladly pay for shipping and materials. Please contact me offlist to arrange the details. Thanks in advance, -- Michael --------________--------________-------- From WaWenri at aol.com Fri May 9 23:55:07 2003 From: WaWenri at aol.com (WaWenri at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 18:55:07 EDT Subject: [LMB] RE: Topless/Discreet Betans? Message-ID: <1d1.93ae3ec.2bed8bcb@aol.com> Susan Profit writes: > Do most people assume women on Beta wrap them around under the arms or > around the waist? >From the references in ACC, waist. Bill Wenrich --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Fri May 9 22:41:42 2003 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 22:41:42 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Issues OT: Message-ID: > From: Pouncer at aol.com > Date: 09 May 2003 16:17 [...] > neck to remain stiff, may be sufficient signal that one's standards of > conduct are different. (Presumed "better" by the person doing the signaling, > of course, but that value judgement is implied in the decision to send the > signal. Nobody makes an effort to signal "my standards are lower/worse than > yours". Oh yes ? My standards are more reasonable/in tune with the popular will and you are a pharisee and do you really use a butter knife when you are alone and in order that water may not pass your lips you doubtless brush your teeth with a light Bordeaux ? I am sure the list mind will teem with examples. -- Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From adamek at mac.com Sat May 10 01:27:13 2003 From: adamek at mac.com (Adam Ek) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 20:27:13 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: I've been trying to be good (Re: OT: Nudity) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2521007A-827E-11D7-846A-000A277E7174@mac.com> On Thursday, May 8, 2003, at 03:23 AM, Susan Profit wrote: > Betan parents would have laughed at such a thing. Jackson's Wholers > would have charged for the outtakes. Komarrans would have started > shipping lots of anti-uticaric lotion in ASAP (New Market! New > Market!) Athosians would have been trying to banish all news of the > events from their airwaves. Barrayarans? Shudder. Chalionese would > have hung me for degrading a maiden so. Cetagandans would genetically engineer an antidote. --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Sat May 10 01:40:04 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 19:40:04 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Baen CD-ROM Library Volume 2 In-Reply-To: <003901c31677$9dfb5780$3201a8c0@mbaxis> References: <003901c31677$9dfb5780$3201a8c0@mbaxis> Message-ID: <20030510004003.GA8632@fireopal.org> On Fri, May 09, 2003 at 06:09:09PM -0400, Michael Bauminger wrote: > If you are willing to do this (and have a CD burner), I will > gladly pay for shipping and materials. Please contact me offlist > to arrange the details. I hate "Me too"s - but that's what this is. Please? -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Sat May 10 06:28:29 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 05:28:29 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Freedom Message-ID: <20030509.222900.586.9570@webmail03.lax.untd.com> Marna writes [snipped fore & aft] "I'm less sure of that, which is odd since I'm generally less inclined to worry about law and more inclined to worry about practice than you are, I think." Hmm.. Not sure what that means. I do know that I find "the hidden law" to be more important than the written... One of my favorite commentaries on social conservatism is that if one has to pass a law about X, it's already too late... That is, one has a decent chance attempting to legislate morality, but legislating manners is doomed to failure from the beginning... Snipped all the rest, not because I disagree, but because I want to think about it... Kirsten (running behind on the digests again) Edwards ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From otherlois at yahoo.com Sat May 10 06:49:20 2003 From: otherlois at yahoo.com (Lois Aleta Fundis) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 22:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: Real Player In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030509141150.00adeba0@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030510054920.84344.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> > James - who wants to hear Tolkien Considering that these CDs (there are 2, one for poets and one for writers) include other famous authors including Robert Browning (recorded in 1889!) and P.G. Wodehouse -- one of his infamous broadcasts from Germany during the war, no less -- I'm thinking of ordering them both. And as for Real Player, I don't know about the spyware allegation, but it's taking forever to load this one clip of JRRT! At this rate, it may be quicker to order the CD and wait for it to travel from England to West Virginia! They're listed with some other CDs and CD-ROMs from the British Library at http://www.bl.uk/services/publications/onlineaudio.html The cost is 9.95 pounds (I'm not sure the L with a line through it symbol would come through in everyone's e-mail) which translates to roughly 16 U.S. dollars. Plus shipping, I suppose. -- the Other Lois, who believes in supporting libraries! ===== Lois Fundis ("the other Lois") otherlois at yahoo.com visit my blog -- http://auntlowey.blogspot.com "I didn't vote for him." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From nexus at jamasu.com Sat May 10 13:39:26 2003 From: nexus at jamasu.com (Amanda Marlowe) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:39:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: nursing in church References: <20030508163655.47580.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000a01c316f1$31d3cf40$94241444@Amanda> From: "Joyeuse" > --- "Luckabaugh, Joy H. (LNG-BET)" a icrit : > > > > > > > You and I eat in restaurants, and in various public places. Why should it > > be somehow different for a baby? > > A very good point--and looked at in that light, the answer to the original > question (should mothers nurse babies in church, or use the nursing room) > becomes easier: eating and drinking in most church sanctuaries is against the > rules [1]. Ergo, nurse in the nursing room, just as you would leave to get a > drink of water. > This would be fine, as long as mothers who provide bottles for their babies are also asked to leave the church and use the nursing room. Which, I will bet just about any amount of money, they are not. Just as no one would dream of asking a mother with a bottle to leave a mall food court, a park bench, or an airplane seat to go feed their kid in the bathroom. (Yes, some nursing mother has been told to do that in all three of those situations. And probably countless others.) Amanda, delurking briefly. --------________--------________-------- From pam at gotcher.us Sat May 10 13:41:54 2003 From: pam at gotcher.us (Pam) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:41:54 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Ebay POS References: Message-ID: <0f1301c316f1$8b13dcd0$6c3a0144@Laptop> It's now just at 1 hour and 42 minutes before this closes. I'm going to do something I haven't seen done here before - I'll post my proxy bid. I'm willing to go up to $200 for this book, and have set my proxy bid at that amount. I respectfully request that unless you're willing to exceed that amount, that the listmembers not bid at the last minute with lesser amounts (but higher than the current $81) against me, as that will just to raise the cost of what I will have to pay higher. If you want to bid more than $200, you are certainly free to do so, this is just my top limit. Thanks, Pam --------________--------________-------- From c_muir68 at hotmail.com Sat May 10 14:15:12 2003 From: c_muir68 at hotmail.com (catherine muir) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:15:12 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Book recommendation OT: Message-ID: Speed of Dark by Elizabeth Moon. Finished it last weekend, and I'm still thinking about the ending - can't remember the last time that happened. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. More info here. --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Sat May 10 15:37:59 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 09:37:59 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Baen CD-ROM Library Volume 2 In-Reply-To: <20030510004003.GA8632@fireopal.org> References: <003901c31677$9dfb5780$3201a8c0@mbaxis> <003901c31677$9dfb5780$3201a8c0@mbaxis> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030510093514.02dfadc0@mail.iqcisp.com> At 07:40 PM 5/9/2003 -0500, Scott Raun wrote: >On Fri, May 09, 2003 at 06:09:09PM -0400, Michael Bauminger wrote: > > > > If you are willing to do this (and have a CD burner), I will > > gladly pay for shipping and materials. Please contact me offlist > > to arrange the details. > >I hate "Me too"s - but that's what this is. Please? IIRC the Baen volume 1 disc data was pretty quickly available on various fans' personal servers for partial or complete download. I bet the same thing happens with this one. I wasn't short of hard drive space when the Honor disc came out. I put the whole thing on my hard drive, including some modifications of the code to suit my personal tastes. Such as expanding the "Friends of Honor" e-books index to include all the Baen Free Library titles I'd downloaded and all the ones I'd bought for myself. It's very handy. Louann --------________--------________-------- From micarr1 at juno.com Sat May 10 16:44:45 2003 From: micarr1 at juno.com (Margaret I Carr) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:44:45 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Baen CD-ROM Library Volume 2 Message-ID: <20030510.084446.-487391.0.micarr1@juno.com> The current cd .iso is available online, with Jim Baen's blessing, but the instructions are a bit long to copy here. Go to Baen's Bar and the Webscriptions Conference and look for the ISO for Hell's Faire CD thread. I got it from an earlier site and have been able to use it from my hard drive. Still trying to figure out how to burn it to a cd. (Robert? Any tips?) If I can get it figured out and those of you who want it haven't found another source I'd be glad to send you one. On Sat, 10 May 2003 09:37:59 -0500 Louann Miller writes: > At 07:40 PM 5/9/2003 -0500, Scott Raun wrote: > >On Fri, May 09, 2003 at 06:09:09PM -0400, Michael Bauminger wrote: > > > > > > > If you are willing to do this (and have a CD burner), I will > > > gladly pay for shipping and materials. Please contact me > offlist > > > to arrange the details. > > > >I hate "Me too"s - but that's what this is. Please? > > IIRC the Baen volume 1 disc data was pretty quickly available on > various > fans' personal servers for partial or complete download. I bet the > same > thing happens with this one. Margaret I. Carr --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Sat May 10 17:34:43 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 09:34:43 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Baen CD-ROM Library Volume 2 In-Reply-To: <20030510.084446.-487391.0.micarr1@juno.com> References: <20030510.084446.-487391.0.micarr1@juno.com> Message-ID: <3EBD2A23.7040100@lvhot.org> Margaret I Carr wrote: > The current cd .iso is available online, with Jim Baen's > blessing, but the instructions are a bit long to copy here. Go > to Baen's Bar and the Webscriptions Conference and look for the > ISO for Hell's Faire CD thread. > > I got it from an earlier site and have been able to use it from > my hard drive. Still trying to figure out how to burn it to a > cd. (Robert? Any tips?) In Easy CD Creator...start CD Creator (either directly or "Create Data CD from the Project Selector). Then: File | Record CD from Hard Disk Image. In Windows XP, I think you just have to right click on the .ISO file. Robert --------________--------________-------- From ndrosen at erols.com Sat May 10 17:43:10 2003 From: ndrosen at erols.com (Nicholas Rosen) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:43:10 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom and nudity OT: Message-ID: <008601c31713$7316d700$493c2c42@oemcomputer> Marna Nightingale wrote: > Kirsten Edwards wrote: > > > Cultural mores that include opportunities for > > public nakedness are good and wholesome. > > > > Cultural mores that preclude opportunities for > > public nakedness are bad and oppressive. > > Heh. > > Actually and in all seriousness, if you substitute the phrases "are > more likely/less likely to have substantial quantities of features we > regard as good, such as equality, liberty, respect for rights and > concern for security of the person" for 'are good and wholesome/are > bad and oppressive", I think it's a pretty darned good, reliable (and > easy to view, so to speak) measure. Ancient Sparta does occur to me as a counterexample. Public nudity was tolerated there -- among women as well as men, contrary to the practice of most other poleis -- but it did not otherwise rank high for equality, liberty, respect for rights, and concern for the security of the person. > *Precisely because* it is highly charged, 'difficult' behaviour, it's > a good indicator of general freedom -- both legally granted and > actually achieved. Of course, one could say that the Spartans didn't think of nudity as highly charged, difficult behavior, but that's a bit of a cop-out. Every society tolerates what it tolerates. > Public nakedness functions as an indicator of the degree to which one > is considered to have control over one's sexuality and body. ... Hmm. Sexually, the Spartans were freer than most other ancient Greeks, but one was not considered to have control of one's body otherwise. A Spartan citizen's body belonged to Sparta, to be used to wage war or to bear children; a helot's body belonged to his master and the state, to be used to produce the food and other goods needed to enable the citzens to serve the city (and helots were sent to war, too, as servants and spear carriers for the armored citizens at the front of the phalanx). Citizens didn't have control over the results of their sexuality, as a government board decided whether to let babies live, or expose them if they didn't seem healthy enough to make good Spartan warriors. Regards, Nicholas --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Sat May 10 17:38:55 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 17:38:55 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Russian "Civil Campaign" Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030510173606.00ade868@pop.luna.co.uk> While I was in Russia I acquired a copy of "A Civil Campaign" to give to a colleague who, it seems, already has it. I am quite happy to keep it, but if any Russian- reading listie badly needs a copy please let me know. James - who has too many books --------________--------________-------- From pam at gotcher.us Sat May 10 18:48:37 2003 From: pam at gotcher.us (Pam) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:48:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Russian "Civil Campaign" References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030510173606.00ade868@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <0f8e01c3171c$6319bc60$6c3a0144@Laptop> James - who has too many books Me; I didn't think this was a possibility. Now, as I recall from some pictures I've seen of your residence during one of your famous (infamous) social functions, you still had some space on your bookshelves, James. Pam --------________--------________-------- From micarr1 at juno.com Sat May 10 19:25:35 2003 From: micarr1 at juno.com (Margaret I Carr) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 11:25:35 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Baen CD-ROM Library Volume 2 & 1 Message-ID: <20030510.112536.-487391.1.micarr1@juno.com> Thanks! Worked fine and even self starting. I'm going to try it out on the work computers to make sure it will still work (different versions of Windows.) Did volume 1 too. I have at least a dozen unused CDRs in jewel cases gathering dust so the only cost will be packaging and postage. email me at the juno.com address micarr1 if you want a copy. On Sat, 10 May 2003 09:34:43 -0700 Robert Parks writes: > Margaret I Carr wrote: >Still trying to figure out how to burn it to a > > cd. (Robert? Any tips?) > > In Easy CD Creator...start CD Creator (either directly or "Create > Data CD from the Project Selector). Then: File | Record CD from > Hard Disk Image. > > In Windows XP, I think you just have to right click on the .ISO > file. > > Robert > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > Margaret I. Carr --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Sat May 10 19:52:48 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:52:48 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Baen CD-ROM Library Volume 2 In-Reply-To: <20030510.084446.-487391.0.micarr1@juno.com> References: <20030510.084446.-487391.0.micarr1@juno.com> Message-ID: <20030510185248.GC14485@fireopal.org> On Sat, May 10, 2003 at 08:44:45AM -0700, Margaret I Carr wrote: > The current cd .iso is available online, with Jim Baen's blessing, but > the instructions are a bit long to copy here. Go to Baen's Bar and the > Webscriptions Conference and look for the ISO for Hell's Faire CD thread. Will do - thanks! > I got it from an earlier site and have been able to use it from my hard > drive. Still trying to figure out how to burn it to a cd. (Robert? Any > tips?) Your CD burner software should have a 'Burn CD from CD Image' option - use that, and point it at the ISO file. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From iiradned at hotmail.com Sat May 10 21:25:51 2003 From: iiradned at hotmail.com (Patrick Vera) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 04:25:51 +0800 Subject: [LMB] Lois on Baen's Bar Message-ID: Someone on Baen's bar asked what Lois was currently writing and then I replied to which Lois herself replied: >>>I wonder, as I not so >>>patiently wait for Winterfair >>>and Paladin, what is Lois >>>writing now? >> >>The third book in the Chalion >>universe. The story is set the >>Chalion equivalent of Germany >>and the lead character's name >>is Ingrey. >> > >I wish. Ingrey's been AWOL since my return from NZ, over-run by trip >recovery and family stuff. A few neurons have fired in the last day or so, >but if I get anything going, it's due to be interrupted immediately by the >next round of guests/convention/family stuff/library talk/more family >stuff, yarg. Anticipated interruption tends to discourage me getting up any >momentum. > >Well, I can only hope that when the story does report for duty again, it >will be worth the wait. I did love the set-up. My usual writing rhythm is a >fast beginning, a slow slog through the middle, and a fast end, and it's >unfortunate that the wodge of outside stuff has coincided with the arrival >of the hard middle. > >This too will pass... > >The convention is Wiscon, and the library talk is one at Marion Public >Library in Marion, Ohio, evening Thursday June 5th. I think the first is on >the Baen calendar, but I don't think the second is. > >Ta, Lois. ---- Patrick Vera Dendarii Free Mercenary Fleet Daring rescues our specialty. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From djhagan at atlantic.net Sat May 10 22:02:23 2003 From: djhagan at atlantic.net (Diana Hagan) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 17:02:23 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom and nudity OT: In-Reply-To: <008601c31713$7316d700$493c2c42@oemcomputer> References: <008601c31713$7316d700$493c2c42@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <1052600543.3ebd68df7f934@webmail.atlantic.net> [delurking -- hello!] Quoting Nicholas Rosen : > > Actually and in all seriousness, if you substitute the phrases "are > > more likely/less likely to have substantial quantities of features we > > regard as good, such as equality, liberty, respect for rights and > > concern for security of the person" for 'are good and wholesome/are > > bad and oppressive", I think it's a pretty darned good, reliable (and > > easy to view, so to speak) measure. > > Ancient Sparta does occur to me as a counterexample. Public > nudity was tolerated there -- among women as well as men, > contrary to the practice of most other poleis -- but it did not > otherwise rank high for equality, liberty, respect for rights, and > concern for the security of the person. Actually, Sparta is a good example, if you take gender into account. It was the custom for males in Ancient Greece to congregate in the gymnasia (derived from the Greek word for "naked") for athletics, music, and philosophy (the name we know "Plato" by is actually a wrestling nick-name). In Athens, however, citizen women not only stayed clothed, but were restricted to the womens quarters of the household. It was considered scandalous that the Spartan women exercised (nude) in public -- it implied a great deal more personal freedom than women had in other poleis. > Of course, one could say that the Spartans didn't think of nudity > as highly charged, difficult behavior, but that's a bit of a cop-out. > Every society tolerates what it tolerates. It was probably not highly charged, for the simple fact that there were many people who did not have the resources to clothe themselves. A good indicator of the level of sensitivity, from pre-classical Greece, would be the scene in the Odyssey (Book 6), where Odysseus is shipwrecked & naked, and must introduce himself to the maiden Nausikaa, who is conveniently doing laundry nearby. His nakedness is both a vulnerability (which an olive branch shields) and makes him terrifyingly feral -- he is likened to a mountain lion among flocks -- but not a source of shame. A legal or cultural stricture requiring clothing would probably come at a point where just about everyone could afford to clothe themselves, but some small percentage of the population would need to be forced to. I'm thinking about laws requiring shoes, where many parents might not spend the money on shoes for kids if it weren't required by law -- the only shame in not having shoes for ones children would be for being too poor (or neglectful). > > Public nakedness functions as an indicator of the degree to which one > > is considered to have control over one's sexuality and body. ... > > Hmm. Sexually, the Spartans were freer than most other ancient > Greeks, but one was not considered to have control of one's body > otherwise. A Spartan citizen's body belonged to Sparta, to be > used to wage war or to bear children; a helot's body belonged to > his master and the state, to be used to produce the food and other > goods needed to enable the citzens to serve the city (and helots > were sent to war, too, as servants and spear carriers for the > armored citizens at the front of the phalanx). Citizens didn't have > control over the results of their sexuality, as a government board > decided whether to let babies live, or expose them if they didn't > seem healthy enough to make good Spartan warriors. You may be trying to apply a standard of individualism that is not appropriate for this time. Even in Athens a boy child needed to be accepted by the father's clan to be a citizen. In Rome, the head of the family (pater familias) owned all property and had life or death authority over wife, children and slaves. Infanticide was common everywhere. If resources are scarce, raising marginal offspring is a luxury a family may not be able to indulge. To bring it back on topic, a moral aversion to infanticide on Barrayar has to follow the availability of resources and technology that makes it economically feasible for the hillfolk still practicing it to have the luxury of taking a moral stance against it. Diana ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent via Atlantic.Net Webmail. high speed internet access * web site services * telecommunications * dial-up Visit www.atlantic.net to learn more. --------________--------________-------- From nrappin at sockeye.com Sun May 11 02:42:23 2003 From: nrappin at sockeye.com (Noel Rappin) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 21:42:23 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Klingon Interpreter Wanted Message-ID: <3EBDAA7F.7060504@sockeye.com> Thought some of you (especially Mark Mandel) might be interested in this: County seeks Klingon interpreter Associated Press Position Available: Interpreter, must be fluent in Klingon. The language created for the "Star Trek" TV series and movies is one of about 55 needed by the office that treats mental health patients in metropolitan Multnomah County. "WE HAVE to provide information in all the languages our clients speak," said Jerry Jelusich, a procurement specialist for the county Department of Human Services, which serves about 60,000 mental health clients. Although created for works of fiction, Klingon was designed to have a consistent grammar, syntax and vocabulary. And now Multnomah County research has found that many people -- and not just fans -- consider it a complete language. "There are some cases where we've had mental health patients where this was all they would speak," said the county's purchasing administrator, Franna Hathaway. County officials said that obligates them to respond with a Klingon-English interpreter, putting the language of starship Enterprise officer Worf and other Klingon characters on a par with common languages such as Russian and Vietnamese, and less common tongues including Dari and Tongan. /) 2003 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. / /--- / /Noel Rappin / --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Sun May 11 10:12:56 2003 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 05:12:56 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Orthodox Judaism and misogyny (was: Athosian Religion) References: <007901c312ae$3cd1d5a0$508fd943@ray1000> <000f01c312c6$1a00f200$9e19fea9@attbi.com> <3EB683BC.8050804@mail.utexas.edu> <3EB6CDDC.31A8D30@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <006101c3179d$8371e650$3201a8c0@mbaxis> On Monday, May 05, 2003 4:47 PM, Marna Nightingale wrote: > Or Orthodox Judaism, some (not all) male practitioners of > which still begin the day by thanking G*d for not making > them a woman. At the time that prayer was instituted, it was *way* advantageous to be a man. Not for religious reasons, but for cultural reasons. Women were not chattel, but they went from their father's house to their husband's house. Unless their father died before they married, or they were divorced or widowed, they were never independent. Given that, it was only right to thank G-d for not making one a woman. Just because that situation has changed is no reason to change/stop saying a traditional prayer, at least not in Orthodox Judaism, where traditions and customs have the inertia of neutronium. > Divorced Orthodox Jewish women cannot remarry without a > Get from their husbands. Some men withold these. Other > men, equally Orthodox and accepting the basic structure, > make it their business to make such men... uncomfortable > ... until they Get Hip. That is because a "Get" *is* a Bill of Divorcement. Until they receive that "Get", they are *not* "divorced Orthodox Jewish women". The law is very unfair in that it requires that the only way a couple can be divorced is that the husband give the wife a Bill of Divorcement. That requirement, however, is scriptural and not in the power of the rabbis to change. The rabbinical courts used to have the power to compel a man to give his wife a "Get" by torture, if necessary.[1] Because that is no longer the case - imagine yourself in your country's criminal court for aggravated assault and your defense is: "The rabbis told me to [horsewhip him]" - and the most power a rabbinical court has in these matters today is to have the community shun such a man, we have the unfortunate situation of women whose husbands refuse them a "get", otherwise known as "Agunot" (singular: "Agunah"). There is a rabbinical court that has come up with a somewhat novel approach for resolving this issue, which is, unfortunately, not yet universally accepted. The approach works like this: There exists in the law the concept of an invalid, flawed marriage, that can be annulled by the decree of a rabbinical court. If someone is found after the marriage to have been hiding circumstances that, had the other party known it, would have meant that they would never have married - such as insanity, complete irreligiosity, or a number of other things - such a marriage can be set aside by a rabbinical court without requiring a divorce. This court has started applying this principle - if she had known, before they married, that he would refuse her a "get" if the marriage broke up, she would never have married him - to annul the marriages of Agunot who come before it. One of the problems with this approach is that not everyone accepts that this reason is sufficient to annul a marriage ab initio. The skeptics' thinking goes that this would only be a deal breaker if the couple expected eventually to divorce, and that most couples do not go into a marriage with the expectation that they will divorce. The whole issue is a very thorny problem in Orthodox Judaism that looks like it will take some time to resolve, but that is actively being worked on. -- Michael [1] Part of the scriptural requirement is that a man *give* his wife the "get", i.e. of his own free will. How then if he is tortured until he agrees to give the "get" is this his own free will? The answer is that really the man wants to give his wife the "get" -- it is only his "yetzer hara", his "evil inclination" (the little red devil on the shoulder opposite his conscience) -- that is holding him back from doing what he knows to be right. We are allowed to beat him until his pain overcomes his evil inclination, at which time he will desire to do the right thing and give his wife her "get". --------________--------________-------- From traceyln at tpg.com.au Sun May 11 10:54:46 2003 From: traceyln at tpg.com.au (Tracey Edwardes) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 17:54:46 +0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: Baen CD-ROM Library Volume 2 Message-ID: snipped Although I plan on buying Ringo's _Hell's Faire_, I am going to wait for it to come out in paperback. ... If you are willing to do this (and have a CD burner), I will gladly pay for shipping and materials. Please contact me offlist to arrange the details. ------- Can I please say me three, Scott if you get a copy arranged in OZ would you be able to cut a copy for me in Perth? Traceylyn PS if any one want a copy of VOl 1 in OZ or nearby I am happy to cut one and send it on..... --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Sun May 11 11:10:27 2003 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 06:10:27 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Baen CD-ROM Library Volume 2 - thanks! References: <20030510.084446.-487391.0.micarr1@juno.com> Message-ID: <00cc01c317a5$8c37b690$3201a8c0@mbaxis> On Saturday, May 10, 2003 11:44 AM, Margaret I Carr wrote: > The current cd .iso is available online, with Jim Baen's > blessing, but the instructions are a bit long to copy > here. Go to Baen's Bar and the Webscriptions Conference > and look for the ISO for Hell's Faire CD thread. Thanks to everyone who responded, on and offlist, with offers to copy and send me the CD, but this post gave me the information I needed to find, download, and burn it for myself. -- Michael --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Sun May 11 11:52:20 2003 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 06:52:20 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT-ish: Nudity Taboos and Dress Codes References: Message-ID: <015f01c317ab$66127d00$3201a8c0@mbaxis> On Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:49 PM, Patrick Vera wrote: > On another note I heard on an American gameshow that as > long as is not for purposes of commercial solicatation > women can go topless in New York City. Make that "as long as it is not for prurient reasons," and that was the point of the original post. The city lost a lawsuit brought against it when the NYPD arrested a woman who was dressed as a (topless) mermaid in the annual mermaid parade in Coney Island. The plaintiff's lawyer quoted in the piece is activist attorney and NYC's WABC radio morning show co-host Ron Kuby. -- Michael --------________--------________-------- From mel_in_kanazawa at yahoo.com.au Sun May 11 12:54:26 2003 From: mel_in_kanazawa at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Melanie=20Harris?=) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 21:54:26 +1000 (EST) Subject: [LMB] Who wants Japanese copies? (was Re: Russian "Civil Campaign") Message-ID: <20030511115426.42188.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> James piped up with: > While I was in Russia I acquired a copy of "A Civil > Campaign" to give to a colleague who, it seems, > already has it. I am quite happy to keep it, but if > any Russian-reading listie badly needs a copy please > let me know. Oooh, good point. Given that I'm happily ensconced in Kanazawa, Japan right now, does anyone want Japanese-language copies of any of Lois's books? Of course, any Japanese listies actually living in-country don't need the help, but maybe there's someone out there who's either a rabid completist and thinks it would be cool (like me), or is studying/has studied Japanese and would like one for enjoyable reading practice (also like me). I certainly plan to get a full set before I have to drag myself home to Australia! > James - who has too many books *pfffft* Sure, James... you have too many books the way I have too much manga. :) ===== Melanie Harris .....now in Kanazawa, JAPAN! (Yokatta ne!) http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. --------________--------________-------- From dbernat at gol.com Sun May 11 15:35:13 2003 From: dbernat at gol.com (David Bernat) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 23:35:13 +0900 Subject: [LMB] Who wants Japanese copies? (was Re: Russian "Civil Campaign") In-Reply-To: <20030511115426.42188.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "Melanie Harris" wrote: >Oooh, good point. Given that I'm happily ensconced in >Kanazawa, Japan right now, does anyone want >Japanese-language copies of any of Lois's books? Of >course, any Japanese listies actually living >in-country don't need the help, but maybe there's >someone out there who's either a rabid completist and >thinks it would be cool (like me), or is studying/has >studied Japanese and would like one for enjoyable >reading practice (also like me). I certainly plan to >get a full set before I have to drag myself home to >Australia! Which publishing house? Hayakawa? I haven't seen anything by LMB at the local bookstore in Japanese. David Bernat dbernat at gol.com Adachi-ku, Tokyo --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Sun May 11 17:23:56 2003 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 11:23:56 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Who wants Japanese copies? (was Re: Russian "Civil Campaign") Message-ID: <004301c317d9$bf3a0aa0$0500000a@oemcomputer> David Bernat dbernat at gol.com Sun, 11 May 2003 23:35:13 +0900 "Melanie Harris" wrote: >Oooh, good point. Given that I'm happily ensconced in >Kanazawa, Japan right now, does anyone want >Japanese-language copies of any of Lois's books? Of >course, any Japanese listies actually living >in-country don't need the help, but maybe there's >someone out there who's either a rabid completist and >thinks it would be cool (like me), or is studying/has >studied Japanese and would like one for enjoyable >reading practice (also like me). I certainly plan to >get a full set before I have to drag myself home to >Australia! Which publishing house? Hayakawa? I haven't seen anything by LMB at the local bookstore in Japanese. David Bernat dbernat at gol.com Adachi-ku, Tokyo Tokyo Sogen-sha They have bought or published most of the series up to -- I think _Komarr_ -- in any case, my translator is still at work. _Mirror Dance_ was recently published in two parts. *Finding* them, now... I'd be curious about a report on the books' availability. It is my understanding that Japanese publishers print sparingly, and that paperbacks are only available for a few months after publication, but I'd be glad to learn that is not true. How easy is it to special order books or older books not on the shelves, over there? I think Mike has some of the Japanese covers up on dendarii.com... yes. http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Covers/Japanese/index.html There are quite a few missing; maybe someone can rustle him up some more scans. Ta, Lois. --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sun May 11 19:00:37 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 11:00:37 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Nexus life extension In-Reply-To: <005101c31526$9e2a03c0$2fa4adcf@nwlink.com> References: <49.2e15f96a.2be9aac0@aol.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030507094810.01dab550@pop.east.cox.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030507213425.01db8ba0@pop.east.cox.net> <005101c31526$9e2a03c0$2fa4adcf@nwlink.com> Message-ID: <20030511180037.GA10947@ofb.net> On Wed, May 07, 2003 at 10:56:48PM -0700, Dan Tilque wrote: > > And he may well outlive Miles by a number of years, as the > > life-shortening occurrences from DI also did not happen to him. > > And that may be modified by whatever the Duronas come up with in > the way of life extension treatments. I wonder how far they can realistically get. It's hard to imagine life-extension has been a neglected field of research. Even if Beta has a deathist streak we haven't seen the Jacksonians would have a personal interest in a less *risky* procedure than clone-gobbling, unless they have secret methods which boost the success rate way above the textual 50%. It seems unlikely that the Duronas can add all that much, unless Durona really is way way smarter, even than a bunch of Betan researchers (who'll be among the brightest of the whole planet of Beta.) They could of course just get lucky. Or maybe have relevant unethically acquirable medical information. But otherwise extending the life of the human body past its genetic use-by date doesn't seem necessarily all that possible in the Nexus. (Vs. better genes, and maybe living in zero-gee, not sure why the quaddies live so long.) I note that one elite in the Nexus which doesn't seem to make use of the clone-transfers is the haut. I suppose if they approved of it they wouldn't bother or risk going to Jackson's Whole for it, but unless they're keeping a really big secret they don't seem to do it. -xx- Damien X-) . --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Sun May 11 19:04:31 2003 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 13:04:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Lois's Ohio visit in June Message-ID: <000e01c317e7$ca3d3900$0500000a@oemcomputer> Got the web link... http://www.marion.lib.oh.us/calendar.htm#jun Ta, Lois --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sun May 11 19:55:18 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 11:55:18 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Maps & Oddball LMB Reference In-Reply-To: <3EBBF8F5.123BB0F3@ksu.edu> References: <200305072016.h47KG2r5013266@lists.herald.co.uk> <3EBBF8F5.123BB0F3@ksu.edu> Message-ID: <20030511185518.GB10947@ofb.net> On Fri, May 09, 2003 at 01:52:37PM -0500, Victoria L'Ecuyer wrote: > [1] This can have odd consequences. I've known people who design building > and open spaces without drawing perspectives of what the finished product > will look like in relation to the surrounding structures/elements in situ > when complete. Very bad. My main example of this lack/oversight seems to be > a card-carrying member of "the idea of the month club." Open-air > structures designed for a southern California climate do not work when built > on the Kansas prairie. Trust me on this. And we have liftoff! -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Sun May 11 20:41:31 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:41:31 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring moment in the news In-Reply-To: <000e01c317e7$ca3d3900$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <005401c317f5$53088700$a6422904@earthlink.net> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3018553.stm Benvenuto Cellini's golden salt cellar stolen from a museum. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Mon May 12 09:43:37 2003 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 04:43:37 -0400 Subject: [LMB] a map for Kerry, and other Chalion readers References: <002b01c314df$398cd7e0$0500000a@oemcomputer> <09af01c314e4$3f2febb0$6c3a0144@Laptop> Message-ID: <009401c31862$9535d2a0$3201a8c0@mbaxis> On Wednesday, May 07, 2003 6:01 PM, Pam wrote: > Atlanta, Atlanta, Atlanta or New Orleans, New Orleans, > New Orleans. > Pam > (praying) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lois McMaster Bujold > I should note, for anyone who gets a look at the > back of the bound galleys, the proposed signing tour is > merely a placeholder copy of the one I > had the last time. The actual tour has not been > arranged yet, and could end > up looking quite different. Here's me praying for Lois' publisher arranging a stop in their own backyard, New York City. -- Michael --------________--------________-------- From dtilque at nwlink.com Mon May 12 09:43:40 2003 From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 01:43:40 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Names about history Message-ID: <00c901c31862$b2cac280$1e64adcf@nwlink.com> The names we know historical events and eras by are often not those the participants used. A well-known case is WWI which of course achieved that name after WWII started. Others are the Dark Ages, Middle Ages, and the Renaissance. As I understand it, the War of the Roses wasn't given that name until the 20th century. The Byzantine Empire is also a quite late name, although I'm not sure exactly when it got the name. So it appears in Barrayaran history. Some time ago, in a discussion about the Firsters, I pointed out that that was a name most likely applied by later historians. On reading a passage in MD, I realized that two other terms about Barrayaran history are also after the fact names: the Time of Isolation and the Bloody Centuries. I imagine that both were named in speeches, just as the Iron Curtain was named in a speech by Churchill. Perhaps someone, shortly after the redicovery, proclaimed something like "...Barrayar's long time of isolation is ended." Bingo, instant historical name. Similarly, some Count (perhaps even Dorca himself) in the Council debate on the law restricting the size of the Counts' armies, points out that "... we've had two[1] bloody centuries of warfare ...". Again, a name is coined. -- Dan Tilque [1] There's no textev that there were only two Bloody Centuries. There could have been three. AFAIK, the only textev pertaining to them that actually puts some restriction on them is that Selig Vorkosigan lived during the first Bloody Century. This is in MD. We don't know where Selig came among the 8 Counts that preceded Piotr. If he was the first and the generations were long enough, it could have been more than 200 hundred years before Dorca came to power. --------________--------________-------- From bo at dendarii.com Mon May 12 12:52:21 2003 From: bo at dendarii.com (Bo Johansson) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:52:21 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Names about history References: <00c901c31862$b2cac280$1e64adcf@nwlink.com> Message-ID: <003501c3187c$f28268f0$ab6c72d5@05we7eawlrqm6us> On May 12, 2003 "Dan Tilque" wrote: > > The names we know historical events and eras by are often > not those the participants used. ---SNIP--- > > So it appears in Barrayaran history. Some time ago, in a > discussion about the Firsters, I pointed out that that > was a name most likely applied by later historians. On > reading a passage in MD, I realized that two other terms > about Barrayaran history are also after the fact names: > the Time of Isolation and the Bloody Centuries.---SNIP--- I'm not so sure about the Firsters, they might have named themselves "Firsters" since they were the first wave of colonists. Later when it became clear that there would be no further waves, the name might have stuck as a name for the first generation of Barrayarans. About the Bloody Centuries, do you think there were two separate bloody centuries with an interval between, or was there a single two centuries long bloody period? // Bo Johansson --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Mon May 12 12:54:42 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:54:42 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Names about History In-Reply-To: <200305121101.h4CB1Zr5006670@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030512124956.00af6448@pop.luna.co.uk> Dan Tilque observes that:- >The names we know historical events and eras >by are often not those the participants used. One is reminded of the (apocryphal?) story of the film where, at some dramatic point, a messenger rushed in to announce that the Thirty Years War had just started. James --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Mon May 12 14:18:56 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 07:18:56 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Names about history References: <00c901c31862$b2cac280$1e64adcf@nwlink.com> <003501c3187c$f28268f0$ab6c72d5@05we7eawlrqm6us> Message-ID: <000701c31889$0b3f7480$448171cf@puter> Dan Tilque opens an interesting speculation: > The names we know historical events and eras by are often not those the participants used. <...> So it appears in Barrayaran history. << For that matter, what was the original name of the *planet*? The Vorbarra family rules it now, but didn't that have to evolve from the Vor system, which evolved from the feudal system, which evolved out of the chaos of the ToI, which trapped the Firsters, who called their colony.... __________??? I never thought about this before. Cool! ~ Kay --------________--------________-------- From nrappin at sockeye.com Mon May 12 14:34:20 2003 From: nrappin at sockeye.com (Noel Rappin) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 09:34:20 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Klingon Interpreter Wanted In-Reply-To: <3EBDAA7F.7060504@sockeye.com> References: <3EBDAA7F.7060504@sockeye.com> Message-ID: <3EBFA2DC.2090004@sockeye.com> How embarrassing -- apparently this is an urban legend (I suppose I'm slightly consoled by the fact that the AP and MSNBC and several other news sources fell for it. Real story at http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/5/11/7032/18347 Noel Noel Rappin wrote: > Thought some of you (especially Mark Mandel) might be interested in this: > > > > County seeks Klingon interpreter > > Associated Press > > Position Available: Interpreter, must be fluent in Klingon. The > language created for the "Star Trek" TV series and movies is one of > about 55 needed by the office that treats mental health patients in > metropolitan Multnomah County. > > "WE HAVE to provide information in all the languages our clients > speak," said Jerry Jelusich, a procurement specialist for the county > Department of Human Services, which serves about 60,000 mental health > clients. > > Although created for works of fiction, Klingon was designed to have a > consistent grammar, syntax and vocabulary. > > And now Multnomah County research has found that many people -- and > not just fans -- consider it a complete language. > > "There are some cases where we've had mental health patients where > this was all they would speak," said the county's purchasing > administrator, Franna Hathaway. > > County officials said that obligates them to respond with a > Klingon-English interpreter, putting the language of starship > Enterprise officer Worf and other Klingon characters on a par with > common languages such as Russian and Vietnamese, and less common > tongues including Dari and Tongan. > > /) 2003 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not > be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. > / > > /--- > / > > /Noel Rappin > / --------________--------________-------- From carosue at centurytel.net Mon May 12 14:36:44 2003 From: carosue at centurytel.net (House of Unruly Fish) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 07:36:44 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: We Didn't Start The Fire Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030512073514.00bd7630@mail.so.centurytel.net> Hi all! Did I send this yet? http://www.its.caltech.edu/~yel/Fire.html Really cute, clever, catchy picturized version of Billy Joel's song (updated version). Well worth the download and viewing time! Enjoy! Susan the Neon Nurse, still cutting through the brush of old email ++++++++++++++++++++++carosue at centurytel.net+++++++++++++++++++++ --------________--------________-------- From Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com Mon May 12 15:01:08 2003 From: Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com (Tom Vinson) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 09:01:08 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: stiff-necked (OT:) Message-ID: Pouncer asked about the origins of the expression "stiff-necked". Exodus 32:9, a "stiff-necked people" (KJV). The Hebrew adjective* can mean stiff, hard, difficult. My guess is (no evidence) that this refers to oxen that don't respond well to the yoke. (There is a similar description of horses' mouths--unresponsive to a bit --which I can't remember.) Tom * A literal translation is more like "people of a stiff [qof shin het] neck". The Vulgate has "populus...durae cervicis". --------________--------________-------- From orchestra at wingedharper.com Mon May 12 18:36:46 2003 From: orchestra at wingedharper.com (Jaye) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 10:36:46 -0700 Subject: [LMB] interesting news piece - OT Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030512103631.00b3bef0@mail.blind.net> >from Fox News > > >Klingon Interpreter Needed for Ore. Mental Patients > >PORTLAND, Ore. - Position Available: Interpreter, must >be fluent in Klingon. > >The language created for the Star Trek TV series and >movies is one of about 55 needed by the office that treats >mental health patients in metropolitan Multnomah County. > >"We have to provide information in all the languages our >clients speak," said Jerry Jelusich, a procurement specialist >for the county Department of Human Services, which serves >about 60,000 mental health clients. > >Although created for works of fiction, Klingon was designed >to have a consistent grammar, syntax and vocabulary. > >And now Multnomah County research has found that many >people - and not just fans - consider it a complete >language. > >"There are some cases where we've had mental health >patients where this was all they would speak," said the >county's purchasing administrator, Franna Hathaway. > >County officials said that obligates them to respond with a >Klingon-English interpreter, putting the language of starship >Enterprise officer Worf and other Klingon characters on a >par with common languages such as Russian and >Vietnamese, and less common tongues including Dari and >Tongan. All men know the utility of useful things; few men know the utility of useless things. Lao Tze Jaye orchestra at wingedharper.com www.wingedharper.com http://wingedharper.com/caesarean_trauma/index.html --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Mon May 12 19:06:32 2003 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 14:06:32 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: stiff-necked (OT:) References: Message-ID: <001f01c318b5$985dfef0$3201a8c0@mbaxis> On Monday, May 12, 2003 10:01 AM, Tom Vinson wrote: > Exodus 32:9, a "stiff-necked people" (KJV). The Hebrew > adjective* can mean stiff, hard, difficult. > > * A literal translation is more like "people of a stiff > [qof shin het] neck". The Vulgate has "populus...durae > cervicis". That's [qof shin hay][1], not "het", which is a different letter[2], but you have the definition correct. -- Michael [1] Although the root word is ka-SHAH [qof shin hay], as it is conjugated in this sentence, the word becomes k'-SHAY, spelled [qof shin yod]. The entire "people of a stiff neck" is "AHM k'-SHAY O-ref", where "Ahm" is "people" and "O-ref" is "neck". [2] "Hay" is the fifth letter and has an "H" sound whereas "het" is the eighth letter and has a "ch" as in "Bach" sound. Depending on a number of factors, the pronunciation of "het" varies from a hard "ch" to a much softer sound that is almost an "h". English speakers often mispronounce "het", especially a soft "het", as a simple "h". This holds true for Arabic pronunciations as well as for Hebrew ones; for example, Hummus starts with a "ch" sound, not an "h" sound. --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Mon May 12 19:52:24 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:52:24 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Browsing Questions - Summary of Answers OT: In-Reply-To: <3EB52BD2.D1F26DAC@w-link.net> References: <3EA6DBCB.9020909@lvhot.org> <3EB52BD2.D1F26DAC@w-link.net> Message-ID: <3EBFED68.9000308@lvhot.org> Nearly 20 people responded...Thank You! > Robert Parks wrote: >> 1: Browser window size. I'd be interested to know the range >> of sizes people use. Monitor resolutions ranged from 800 x 600 to 1600 x 1200, with a majority in the middle range of 1024 x 768 to 1152 x 864. Browser widths bottomed out at 700 pixels, with many around 800 to 1000 pixel widths. There were various reminders about the vast numbers of people with 800x600 screens, and a note about WebTV's 640 pixel width (which is only a problem in case of frames for the pages I build) Accessibility issues were raised, as were absolute positioning and forced sizing, which I don't do. Except for some utility generated HTML pages, my pages are plain vanilla HTML and render fine using a Lynx viewer and check out on ADA compliance. >> 2: Frames. Hate them, love them, don't care, OK as long as >> there are no-frames alternatives. The majority of responders dislike frames, especially complex ones, a single side navigation bar being less unacceptable. It was noted severally that there are layouts and designs that more or less require frames. No one preferred the use of frames for page layout and positioning. Accessibility issues and navigation/bookmarking were brought up. Thank you again for the comments, I think, given this, that one of the my yearly projects will continue to be frameless...it isn't as though anyone is clamoring for navigation bar. The other project, if I ever find the time to work on it probably will end up with frames, although a parallel frameless version will exist. I will try to design it so it works on a 700 pixel wide browser window, although I suspect that it may be a bit cramped. We'll see what happens. The stumbling block will be the width of the images... If I get something up, I'll mention it here for comments. Robert --------________--------________-------- From djhagan at atlantic.net Mon May 12 22:21:48 2003 From: djhagan at atlantic.net (Diana Hagan) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:21:48 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Browsing Questions - Summary of Answers OT: In-Reply-To: <3EBFED68.9000308@lvhot.org> References: <3EA6DBCB.9020909@lvhot.org> <3EB52BD2.D1F26DAC@w-link.net> <3EBFED68.9000308@lvhot.org> Message-ID: <1052774508.3ec0106c8b656@webmail.atlantic.net> Robert, Another thing to think about concerning frames is that it confuses search engine robots. I manage an online publication database. The documents are displayed with a navigation frame at the top, so the document consists of three "pages" (plus a pdf version!) any or all of which may turn up separately in search results. It makes it very difficult to control how a person is viewing the documents. Needless to say, the frames are going away in the next redesign. Diana ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent via Atlantic.Net Webmail. Want your companys Web site to dazzle your customers? Visit http://design.atlantic.net and put the Web to work for your business. --------________--------________-------- From countryboy66 at mchsi.com Mon May 12 22:43:53 2003 From: countryboy66 at mchsi.com (Countryboy) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:43:53 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: We Didn't Start The Fire References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030512073514.00bd7630@mail.so.centurytel.net> Message-ID: <007401c318cf$9578ba80$d18dd70c@MainComputer> Susan the Neon Nurse announced: > Hi all! > > Did I send this yet? > > http://www.its.caltech.edu/~yel/Fire.html > > Really cute, clever, catchy picturized version of Billy Joel's song > (updated version). Well worth the download and viewing time! Enjoy! > Wow. That is one of my favorite songs by one of my favorite singers. Thanks for the heads up. It is some really good work. Countryboy (Allen) - who won't be able to get the song out of his head for days because years ago he listened to the song over and over again until he had all of the lyrics cold. --------________--------________-------- From gordon at balafon.net Tue May 13 00:52:16 2003 From: gordon at balafon.net (Gordon Tisher) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:52:16 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: stiff-necked (OT:) In-Reply-To: <001f01c318b5$985dfef0$3201a8c0@mbaxis> References: <001f01c318b5$985dfef0$3201a8c0@mbaxis> Message-ID: <3EC033B0.1070400@balafon.net> Michael Bauminger wrote: > [2] "Hay" is the fifth letter and has an "H" sound whereas "het" > is the eighth letter and has a "ch" as in "Bach" sound. Depending > on a number of factors, the pronunciation of "het" varies from a > hard "ch" to a much softer sound that is almost an "h". English > speakers often mispronounce "het", especially a soft "het", as a > simple "h". This holds true for Arabic pronunciations as well as > for Hebrew ones; for example, Hummus starts with a "ch" sound, > not an "h" sound. Arabic has 3 "h" sounds: Y (haa'), X. (khaa' -- your "ch" above) and X- (Haa'). Hummus starts with X-, which is pronounced like "h", but with the throat tightened (voiceless laryngeal or pharyngeal fricative). -- Gordon Tisher --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Tue May 13 01:04:36 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:04:36 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity Message-ID: <20030512.170514.3720.7481@webmail02.lax.untd.com> Ive been enjoying the discussion regarding both nudity and nursing in public spaces and so when I ran across this essay the middle section seemed particularly apropos. (Hope Im right.) I include this long excerpt rather than provide a link because I dont intend or want to get into a particular US political discussion (the remaining 3/4 of the piece.) I found last paragraph [*--and yes, it does seem to me as if the long preceeding ones are necc. to appreciate it] v. interesting. I've tried to snip & edit sections relevant only to a particular US media-controversy. FREEDOM (some snippage) >From a traditional religious perspective, the freedom of social liberals is simply the freedom to be enslaved by base desire. But for social liberals, desire itself has been spiritualized. We don't hear much talk about the spiritualization of desire from say, libertarians. Libertarians are more interested in talking about their right to pleasure, than about what pleasure actually means to them. But everywhere in our society, you can see the signs that pleasure itself has taken on an almost religious aura. Take this lyric from, "Every Morning," a pop song by Sugar Ray: Every morning there's a halo hanging from the corner of my girlfriend's four post bed, I know it's not mine but I see if I can use it for the weekend or a one-night stand... She always rights the wrong This is not how premarital sex would have been sung about in the Fifties. Sure, there's a bit of self-conscious irony to the moral-religious language here. But basically, the spiritualization of casual sex is sincerely felt. Of course, as [a popular moralist-KAE] William Bennett would point out, the singer goes on to complain that his girlfriend has ripped his broken heart out and stopped him from "believing." The downside of casual sex is there, but mixed with a sense of sexuality's almost religious character. Explicitly or implicitly, spiritualization of pleasure is everywhere in pop culture. REM made the analogy explicit in "Losing My Religion." And although the language is not explicitly religious, Marvin Gaye's "Sexual Healing" was important to a lot of people because of it was so believable as a guilt-free celebration of sex (and clearly sex between an unmarried couple). THE AESTHETE America's blue [liberal & urbanized-KAE] states have largely adopted what we might call an "aesthetic" culture. A spiritualization of pleasure (music, drugs, and sex) has in many ways come to replace the traditional moral-religious framework for which William Bennett speaks. [snippage, there is "mutual incomprehension between the aesthete and the traditionalist"] >From a traditional religious perspective, humans strive to create a community based on shared moral standards. Conscious of his own weakness, an individual enters a community and places himself under the authority of its moral norms. He knows that both he and others will at times fail to meet those norms. Yet a refusal to articulate and impose moral requirements on himself and others would be an betrayal of the community itself. It would, so to speak, be unbrotherly. The aesthete, on the other hand, is first and foremost an individual. He substitutes personal expression for moral judgment. To the aesthete, the moralist's judgments are oppressive attempts to coerce creativity and stifle the inner self. For the aesthete, music, sex, even drugs, are extensions and revelations of his spiritual self. For the traditional moral man, on the other hand, the aesthete's refusal to make judgments is tantamount to withdrawal from the community. Moral man sees the spiritualized pleasures of the aesthete as a form of idolatry  an attempt to turn all that is selfish in man into a substitute for God. In >The Closing of the American Mind, Allan Bloom argued brilliantly that American pop music is, at root, a sophisticated masturbation fantasy. Bloom was right. But from the perspective of the aesthete, spiritual satisfaction comes precisely from the elaboration and contemplation of his pleasures. That is why popular music holds an almost religious significance for many Americans. [snippage] The spiritualization of pleasure in popular culture is often shallow and dangerous. Yet that is not to entirely deny the worth of expressive individualism, which can take higher forms. In modern democracy, the tension between shared moral standards and free self-expression is profound and ineradicable. So now we know what competing goods stand behind our two conceptions of freedom. For the traditionalist, true freedom is expressed in a community constructed around a shared set of virtues. Unless our desires are placed in the service of that community and those virtues, the "freedom" to follow desire is little short of slavery. But for the aesthetic individualists living in "blue America," true freedom is, at least in part, the ability to express your unique character through your pleasures. Even the pain of a wrecked relationship becomes, in the aesthete's view, spice to the song. What the traditionalist might see as a lesson in the social destructiveness of unchecked pleasure, the expressive individualist sees as a profound and dramatic chapter in his personal story. SIN Now consider a lyric from, Bob Carlisle's song, "We Fall Down," which you can hear on any Christian radio station. As the song begins, a poor man, burdened by a heavy load, gazes up at the high cathedral walls of a monastery. Those high wall make his own life seem miserable and small by comparison. Envious of the prosperous and peaceful life of his moral betters, the man asks a priest about his life behind the walls. The reply is the chorus: We fall down, we get up. We fall down, we get up. We fall down, we get up. And the saints are just the sinners Who fall down and get up. The lesson the poor man draws from this revelation is that, "if even priests who fail can find the grace of God...there must be some hope for the rest of us." There is nothing in the least surprising about this song. Yet it's moral presuppositions are almost totally alien to a blue-state aesthete. How else can we explain the puzzling notion, so prevalent among [edited--those who criticize moralists, that a moral lapse on their part would somehow invalidate traditional morality itself?] Moral traditionalists set the bar high, knowing full well that all men will fall short  moralizers no less than the rest. In contrast, the aesthete's response to a failing in the moralist is to throw the bar away altogether. Martin Luther in his day, like William Bennett in ours, was a moral crusader on behalf of marriage and the family. Luther rejected the Catholic Church's elevation of celibacy, and what he believed to be the Church's excessively negative view of sex within marriage. Luther ended the practice of sending young girls off to nunneries without their consent, and in many other ways reformed marriage along more modern lines. Yet for all that, Luther retained the notion of original sin. For Luther, something of our original corruption always clung to sex, even within marriage. Yet, because marriage was God's work  God's way of securing and perpetuating human society and his Church  Luther believed that God excused the sin of sex within marriage. The notion that some quality of sinfulness always clings to sex is exactly what the aesthete is trying to transcend. Marvin Gaye set out to eradicate the sinfulness of sex, with considerable success. Nowadays, it's tough for an expressive individualist even to grasp what the intrinsic sinfulness of sex could possibly mean. The whole notion seems cruel and vicious. But to traditionalists, the recalcitrant sinfulness of sex is a reminder that pleasure takes its meaning and justification from subordination to something higher. Pleasure put in the service of God's good works brings a deeper and more lasting satisfaction than pleasure for itself. Pleasure for its own sake is slavery. Pleasure in the service of a moral community is freedom. *The traditional perspective is profound, yet its great vulnerability is that it cannot work in the absence of a coherent community. Only the reality of a broader fellowship makes the sacrifice of lower pleasures worthwhile. Nowadays, we take offense at the idea of friends, neighbors, or relatives making moral judgments about our personal affairs. But in the old small towns and ethnic neighborhoods, your relatives and neighbors watched your kids, got you a job, and in a thousand other ways, enlarged your life. In that supportive context, moral demands designed to keep communities alive did not feel intolerable. Only in such a world of mutual sacrifice and fellowship does the image of Christ on the cross make sense. But to the expressive individualists living in our relatively atomized social spaces, moral demands (and the ethos of sacrifice they depend upon) seem merely cruel and incomprehensible. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Tue May 13 01:21:56 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <20030512.170514.3720.7481@webmail02.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <20030512172116.Y69408-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Tue, 13 May 2003, Kirsten Edwards wrote: > Ive been enjoying the discussion regarding both nudity > and nursing in public spaces and so when I ran across this > essay the middle section seemed particularly apropos. > (Hope Im right.) > Well, I've never been anything but an aesthete, I guess... But this piece, while interesting, definitely seemed to be biased in favor of the traditionalists. ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From ndrosen at erols.com Tue May 13 02:46:16 2003 From: ndrosen at erols.com (Nicholas Rosen) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:46:16 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois's Ohio visit in June Message-ID: <012001c318f1$78379780$493c2c42@oemcomputer> Lois Herself wrote: > Got the web link... > > http://www.marion.lib.oh.us/calendar.htm#jun That's Thursday June fifth, so I won't be able to fly to Ohio to hear her speak. I'm scheduled to give a speech to the Patent Office Toastmasters, on the subject: "The Works of Lois McMaster Bujold; A Thousand Words of Closely Reasoned Adulation." Regards, Nicholas --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Tue May 13 02:52:44 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:52:44 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Lois's Ohio visit in June References: <00c901c31862$b2cac280$1e64adcf@nwlink.com> <003501c3187c$f28268f0$ab6c72d5@05we7eawlrqm6us> <000701c31889$0b3f7480$448171cf@puter> Message-ID: <000701c318f2$5982c340$658171cf@puter> Nicholas modestly admits: > I'm scheduled to give a speech to the Patent Office Toastmasters, on the subject: "The Works of Lois McMaster Bujold; A Thousand Words of Closely Reasoned Adulation." < Text! Text! Well, as soon as the speech is given, that is. I would dearly -love- to read that! You *go*, Nicholas! ~ Kay --------________--------________-------- From pnewman at gci.net Tue May 13 02:52:39 2003 From: pnewman at gci.net (Peter Newman) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:52:39 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Nexus life extension References: <200305121101.h4CB1Zr5006670@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EC04FE7.6040502@gci.net> Damien Sullivan wrote > I wonder how far they can realistically get. It's hard to imagine > life-extension has been a neglected field of research. Even if Beta has a > deathist streak we haven't seen the Jacksonians would have a personal interest > in a less *risky* procedure than clone-gobbling, unless they have secret > methods which boost the success rate way above the textual 50%. It seems > unlikely that the Duronas can add all that much, unless Durona really is way > way smarter, even than a bunch of Betan researchers (who'll be among the > brightest of the whole planet of Beta.) They could of course just get lucky. > Or maybe have relevant unethically acquirable medical information. It might also be that the Betans know that the Jacksonians have a comparative advantage in the field and that their efforts would not be economically competitive. To the extent Beta Colony is a capitalist society it's technological products _must_ make money. Since the Duronas have all that Jacksonian knowledge they'll may be able to make it work where the Betans could not. Another consideration is that the Duronas may be able to take advantage of Mark's assistance and Mark is more interested in shutting down the clone transfers than in making money. Therefore he may be willing to do it even if a rational Betan capitalist would see a better use for his money. > otherwise extending the life of the human body past its genetic use-by date > doesn't seem necessarily all that possible in the Nexus. (Vs. better genes, > and maybe living in zero-gee, not sure why the quaddies live so long.) > > I note that one elite in the Nexus which doesn't seem to make use of the > clone-transfers is the haut. I suppose if they approved of it they wouldn't > bother or risk going to Jackson's Whole for it, but unless they're keeping a > really big secret they don't seem to do it. Extending your life does not contribute to the goal of improving the haut race. An old haut is century old technology, not best modern state of the art. From the hauts point of view it is better to spend those resources on improving the next generation, not on preserving the last generation. --------________--------________-------- From megj at nwlink.com Tue May 13 03:30:02 2003 From: megj at nwlink.com (Meg Justus) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:30:02 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Names about history References: <00c901c31862$b2cac280$1e64adcf@nwlink.com> <003501c3187c$f28268f0$ab6c72d5@05we7eawlrqm6us> <000701c31889$0b3f7480$448171cf@puter> Message-ID: <013601c318fa$9b370230$a4e94b43@meg> Kay queries: > For that matter, what was the original name of the *planet*? > The Vorbarra family rules it now, but didn't that have to evolve > from the Vor system, which evolved from the feudal system, which > evolved out of the chaos of the ToI, which trapped the Firsters, > who called their colony.... > > __________??? I always wondered where the name of Cetagandan empire came from, too (although their naming system for their planets is obvious, and not all that creative, given the Cetagandan propensity for fancying everything up -- somehow a numbering system, however esoteric, strikes me as much more Barrayaran than Cetagandan). Most of the planets that get mentioned peripherally (Tau Verde IV, et al) are obviously named after their suns, but none of the main planets (from the book perspective) seem to be. Jackson's Whole, Escobar, Komarr, etc. And where did that -yar or -arr ending come from? It's obviously an established convention, since Sergyar got named Sergyar, and not Serg-some other suffix. And not just a Barrayaran one at that. Oh, and who was Kline, and why did a whole space station get named after someone so plain-sounding? Megaera who still wonders about the Firsters, and all their stories, too -- can we please raid Lois's garage for that Encyclopaedia Barrayarnica??? --------________--------________-------- From raye_j at yahoo.com Tue May 13 04:05:35 2003 From: raye_j at yahoo.com (Raye Johnsen) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Names about history In-Reply-To: <013601c318fa$9b370230$a4e94b43@meg> Message-ID: <20030513030535.64378.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com> --- Meg Justus wrote: > I always wondered where the name of Cetagandan > empire came from, too > (although their naming system for their planets is > obvious, and not all that > creative, given the Cetagandan propensity for > fancying everything up -- > somehow a numbering system, however esoteric, > strikes me as much more > Barrayaran than Cetagandan). Most of the planets > that get mentioned > peripherally (Tau Verde IV, et al) are obviously > named after their suns, but > none of the main planets (from the book perspective) > seem to be. I don't think that 'Tau Verde IV' is what the *Cetagandans* call it. That naming system is the current astronomical system (Terra being officially 'Sol III') and so I think that's simply what it is on the Barrayaran star-maps. I've never actually seen a Cetagandan refer to any of their planetary systems by any name, so I'd imagine they do have names - it's just that the Cetagandans have not seen fit to share them with the general riff-raff of the Nexus. > Oh, and who was Kline, and why did a whole space > station get named after > someone so plain-sounding? Probably for the same reason that cities these days get named something boring - he was very likely the original owner of the core station the current one is built out of. Let's ask Her Ladyship for *that* story, shall we? ^_^ Raye ===== raye_j at yahoo.com livejournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/windtear http://www.thejohnsens.com/index.html "It means, I'm in charge... where are you going?" - C-3PO (to R2D2), 'Star Wars: Attack of the Clones' __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From dtilque at nwlink.com Tue May 13 04:01:25 2003 From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:01:25 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Names about history References: <00c901c31862$b2cac280$1e64adcf@nwlink.com> <003501c3187c$f28268f0$ab6c72d5@05we7eawlrqm6us> Message-ID: <001501c318fb$f2301080$c97cadcf@nwlink.com> Bo Johansson performed an arpeggio on a keyboard and produced: > I'm not so sure about the Firsters, they might have named > themselves "Firsters" since they were the first wave of > colonists. Later when it became clear that there would be > no further waves, the name might have stuck as a name for > the first generation of Barrayarans. Could be, but 50,000 seems an awful big group for such a name to be self-applied. I could see it with a much smaller group, say a few hundred. I've always assumed that the Firsters came over a period of 10 or 15 years. Maybe more. 50,000 people seems like way too many to transport all at once. Especially since they'd be bringing all kinds of equipment, supplies, animals, etc. It'd take a really big fleet to transport all that at once. Plus consider the difficulty of unloading 50,000 people plus equipment all at once. A major logistical headache. Much more reasonable if they started off with a small group for the first bunch, a somewhat larger group the next year or even a few months later and so on. If that were the case, then you'd expect only the first small group to self-apply the name Firsters. And then only if they wanted to distinguish themselves from everyone else. Of course, they could have self-applied it but then the name was later applied to all 50,000 of them. > > About the Bloody Centuries, do you think there were two > separate bloody centuries with an interval between, or was > there a single two centuries long bloody period? I hadn't even considered that possibility. I'd been assuming they were contiguous. Hmm... If they were not contiguous, then you'd expect the peaceful interval would have a name as well, right? Emperor So-and-so's Peace or something like that. We don't know of any such period, which is not conclusive but argues against such an interval. -- Dan Tilque --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Tue May 13 04:31:42 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:31:42 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:04:36 GMT From: Kirsten Edwards >Ive been enjoying the discussion regarding both nudity and nursing in public spaces and so when I ran across this essay the middle section seemed particularly apropos. (Hope Im right.) < It was a very interesting study in contrasting philosophies, Kirsten, and I enjoyed reading it. But I'm afraid that I missed any connection to nursing in public spaces. I can't imagine a situation where the concept of "pleasure" and "sin" come into play with respect to nursing mothers. Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Tue May 13 04:33:07 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:33:07 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity Message-ID: <00b101c31900$799c80e0$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> My turn to need a few days to muse. Having had a chest cold plus deadlines all week, I'm none too swift right now, but the article has me thinking about mysticism, multiple meanings of ecstacy, and most of all the implications of emphasis. Marna --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue May 13 04:56:16 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 20:56:16 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <20030512.170514.3720.7481@webmail02.lax.untd.com> References: <20030512.170514.3720.7481@webmail02.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <20030513035616.GA6103@ofb.net> On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 12:04:36AM +0000, Kirsten Edwards wrote: > sex could possibly mean. The whole notion seems cruel and vicious. But to > traditionalists, the recalcitrant sinfulness of sex is a reminder that > pleasure takes its meaning and justification from subordination to something > higher. Pleasure put in the service of God's good works brings a deeper and To *Christian* (and perhaps Jewish and Moslem ones) traditionalists, this is true. Quite a lot of other societies don't seem to associate sin and sex (although that needn't mean they're cavalier about pre-marital sex or lack of virginity in brides.) There are different traditions out there. > more lasting satisfaction than pleasure for itself. Pleasure for its own > sake is slavery. Pleasure in the service of a moral community is freedom. "Freedom is Slavery. Slavery is Freedom." It is interesting to get this window into the Christian traditionalist mindset. It is not particularly convincing, though. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From dave at klech.net Tue May 13 05:55:28 2003 From: dave at klech.net (David Klecha) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:55:28 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <20030513035616.GA6103@ofb.net> Message-ID: <000001c3190b$e18329b0$3201a8c0@zamyatin> >From the Desk of Damien Sullivan: > > more lasting satisfaction than pleasure for itself. Pleasure for its > > own sake is slavery. Pleasure in the service of a moral community is > > freedom. > > "Freedom is Slavery. Slavery is Freedom." > > It is interesting to get this window into the Christian > traditionalist mindset. It is not particularly convincing, though. I'm thinking you have to buy into more of the central tenets of Christianity for this concept to work. Springing immediately to mind is the bit about "He who seeks to save his life will lose it, but he who loses his life will gain it everlasting." The bit that Kirsten quotes from the article is the result of nineteen hundred years of extrapolation and pontificating about exactly what that means. If you don't believe, basically, in the transcendent power of obedience to the divine, then this is going to seem like so much recursive nonsense. The basic premise, though, is that if you seek pleasure as an end, you'll always be seeking it, because it's fleeting and impermanent. Seek the divine, on the other hand, and not only will you Be a Better Person, so say the Christian traditionalists, but the pleasure you encounter will uplift you all the more. You can also try substituting "money" for "pleasure." Our society reviles greed, and many of our stereotypical villains are those who seek lucre for its own sake. They are depicted as being enslaved to it, constantly taking risks to secure it, and ultimately failing because of it. More culturally acceptable, it seems to me, is the noble and well-meaning fellow who is aloof of his personal wealth, and thus is able to use it in the pursuit of Good. Might even be a potential characterization of Miles. What separates him from a more villainous character? It's certainly not the thumbnail sketch we might draw of him: aristorcrat, cousin of the emperor, showered with favors despite deformity and physical inability, etc. That we know his intentions are noble, however, make him the hero, when a similarly described character could easily be the villain. ObBujold aside, the argument is a familiar one to Christians, I think. I've heard a number of similar sentiments expressed in a variety of millieux. It's not so familiar to non-Christians, I think, and as steeped as it is in Christian philosophy, it's hard to grasp without any sort of groundwork being laid. It's perfectly convincing to me; I understand what the author's saying, and I've seen what I think to be the effects (both positive and negative) in support of the philosophy in my own life and others. And, speaking as a Christian, I think this is one of the problems of taking these extrapolated Christian teachings and presenting them to the world as the Truth of the Matter. As much sense as it may make to *us*, without all the groundwork being laid down beforehand, most people are not going to see it the same way. But that's the way it is with almost any deeply developed philosophy like this. And I suppose I could go into a bunch of examples, but this is already a bit long and I'm tired. Dave --------________--------________-------- From captnmvk at galaxy.plala.or.jp Tue May 13 06:40:40 2003 From: captnmvk at galaxy.plala.or.jp (Mizuho Yoshida) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:40:40 +0900 Subject: [LMB] Who wants Japanese copies? (was Re: Russian "Civil Campaign") Message-ID: <001701c31912$308da200$f80a2fda@gc> David Bernat wrote: > Which publishing house? Hayakawa? I haven't seen anything > by LMB at the local bookstore in Japanese. They are published by Sougen-sha (Sougen SF Bunko). The titles are: "Senshi Shigan" = "Warrior's Apprentice" "Mugen no Kyoukai" = "Border of Infinity" "Voru Geimu" = "Vor Game" "Spiritto Rinngu" = "Spirit Ring" "Tenkuu no Isann" = "Cetaganda" "Miraa Dansu" ( in two volumes) = "Mirror Dance" "Barayaa Nairann" = "Barrayar" Happy shopping! (If you have Japanese font, I can send Japanese letters titles to you.) Mizuho Yoshida, Musashino-shi Tokyo PS- Ms Ogiso, the translator is now preparing the translation of "Ethan of Athos", I believe. --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Tue May 13 06:57:05 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 01:57:05 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity Message-ID: <010701c31914$93865300$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> -----Original Message----- From: David Klecha Hey, good to see you. >The basic premise, though, is that if you seek pleasure as an end, >you'll always be seeking it, because it's fleeting and impermanent. Sure. I think, though, that what he is calling the 'aesthetic perspective' could also be expressed thus: IF tangible creation is a) all or the most important part or a true reflection of All That Is and b) is basically good, THEN pleasure must have "sign value", or, it makes sense that we should like what is good and dislike what is bad. Now, he's also using a narrow definition of pleasure; fulfillment of desire expressed in such a way that he's basically saying instant gratification, and that is where I think he's palming a card. It would make more sense to say pleasure, happiness, satisfaction, fulfillment, and joy. M, still so tired she's probably babbling. --------________--------________-------- From captnmvk at galaxy.plala.or.jp Tue May 13 07:01:58 2003 From: captnmvk at galaxy.plala.or.jp (Mizuho Yoshida) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:01:58 +0900 Subject: [LMB] Availability of Japanese copies (survey on Amazon.co.jp) Message-ID: <000501c31915$2afdf580$f80a2fda@gc> Lois asked the availability of Japanese copies... I surveyed it on Amazon.co.jp. The site said that all her books are available now. Here is the list,. I hope it will help you, who intersted in Japanese copies. Out of the series "Jiyuu Kidou" (= Falling Free) (\980) (3-4 days) "Spiritto Rinngu" (= Spirit Ring) (\980) (3-4 days) Vorkosigan saga "Meiyo no Kakera" (= Shards of Honour) (\800) (3-4 days) "Barayaa Nairan" (= Barrayar) (\980) (3-4 days) "Sennshi Shigan" (= Warrior's Apprentice) (\920) (3-4 days) "Voru Geimu" (= Vor Game) (\920) (3-4 days) "Mugen no Kyoukai" (= Borders of Infinity) (\940) (availability if from 3-4 days) "Shinnai naru Kuloonn" (= Brother of Arms) (\760) (1-3 weeks) "Miraa Dannsu, volume 1" (= Mirror Dance) (\960) (3-4 days) "Miraa Dansu, volume 2 " (= Mirror dance) (\940) (3-4 days) "Tennkuu no Isann" (= Cetaganda) (\900) (3-4 days) Mizuho Yoshida --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Tue May 13 07:05:45 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <000001c3190b$e18329b0$3201a8c0@zamyatin> Message-ID: <20030512230059.W90688-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Mon, 12 May 2003, David Klecha wrote: > >From the Desk of Damien Sullivan: > > > > more lasting satisfaction than pleasure for itself. Pleasure for its > > > > own sake is slavery. Pleasure in the service of a moral community is > > > > freedom. > > > > "Freedom is Slavery. Slavery is Freedom." > > > > It is interesting to get this window into the Christian > > traditionalist mindset. It is not particularly convincing, though. > > I'm thinking you have to buy into more of the central tenets of > Christianity for this concept to work. Maybe so, but it's this kind of thinking that's a large part of why I never will. > The basic premise, though, is that if you seek pleasure as an end, > you'll always be seeking it, because it's fleeting and impermanent. Buddhists would be very surprised to hear that this is a uniquely Christian idea. > It's perfectly convincing to me; I understand what the author's > saying, and I've seen what I think to be the effects (both > positive and negative) in support of the philosophy in my own > life and others. It's perfectly unconvincing to me. I understand perfectly why some sacrifices might be necessary to have a functioning society, or I wouldn't be willing to pay any taxes at all. I just don't see the value to society of people having miserable sexual lives because they happen to be gay, or poly, or something else that doesn't fit into a one-size-doesn't-fit-all definition of The Family. ~malfoy, who does actually believe that sex is sacred :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Tue May 13 07:11:07 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <010701c31914$93865300$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Message-ID: <20030512230614.U90688-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Tue, 13 May 2003, Marna Nightingale wrote: > Sure. I think, though, that what he is calling the 'aesthetic perspective' > could also be expressed thus: > > IF tangible creation is a) all or the most important part or a true > reflection of All That Is and b) is basically good, > > THEN pleasure must have "sign value", or, it makes sense that we should like > what is good and dislike what is bad. Yes. I don't think I would consider a being who supposedly created me such that I would like what was "bad" and hate what was "good" and expect me to be miserable in order to earn its salvation to be WORTHY of my worship. > Now, he's also using a narrow definition of pleasure; > fulfillment of desire expressed in such a way that he's > basically saying instant gratification, and that is where I > think he's palming a card. Yes, I agree. Instant gratification does NOT necessarily lead to pleasure. I ate a pint of ice cream for dinner and I wish I hadn't (I've felt better than this!), so this point is particularly poignant to me at the moment, but hey. We fall down, we get back up. I am capable of recognizing that instant gratification of passing desires is not necessarily the same thing as doing my True Will (which I believe to be my highest good) and can, in fact, be a stupid thing to do. I have had stupid sex, too. But you know, these things tend to be their own punishment. > It would make more sense to say pleasure, happiness, satisfaction, > fulfillment, and joy. Agreed. ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Tue May 13 07:40:00 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:40:00 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Don't scratch that itch if you want to be holy In-Reply-To: <20030512230614.U90688-100000@shell.rawbw.com> References: <20030512230614.U90688-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <3EC09340.5000706@lvhot.org> Azalais Malfoy wrote (snippage), and covered most of the points I wanted to make, and far more politely too! So I shan't, I'll just go re-read pterry's Strata. Robert btw, the current high bidder on the 3rd Paladin ARC on EBay is not a listie. ($67.05) --------________--------________-------- From dtilque at nwlink.com Tue May 13 07:25:11 2003 From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:25:11 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Names about history References: <00c901c31862$b2cac280$1e64adcf@nwlink.com> <003501c3187c$f28268f0$ab6c72d5@05we7eawlrqm6us> <000701c31889$0b3f7480$448171cf@puter> <013601c318fa$9b370230$a4e94b43@meg> Message-ID: <005201c31918$69676880$c97cadcf@nwlink.com> Meg Justus performed an arpeggio on a keyboard and produced: > Kay queries: >> For that matter, what was the original name of the >> *planet*? The Vorbarra family rules it now, but didn't that >> have to evolve from the Vor system, which evolved from the >> feudal system, which evolved out of the chaos of the ToI, >> which trapped the Firsters, who called their colony.... We don't know what the original name of Barrayar was. It could have been Barrayar, which would mean that the Vor-Barra family adopted their name from that of the planet. On the other hand, it could have originally been something else and was renamed to match that of the Emperor's family. We do know that the two are associated, but not which was named for which. > > I always wondered where the name of Cetagandan empire came > from, too (although their naming system for their planets is > obvious, and not all that creative, given the Cetagandan > propensity for fancying everything up -- somehow a numbering > system, however esoteric, strikes me as much more Barrayaran > than Cetagandan). Am I forgetting something? I don't remember any numbers for Ceta planets, just Greek letters (capital planet is Eta Ceta, nearest to Komarr is Rho Ceta, and so forth). > And where did that -yar or -arr ending come from? It's > obviously an established convention, since Sergyar got named > Sergyar, and not Serg-some other suffix. And not just a > Barrayaran one at that. We've discussed this before, but I don't remember any specific conclusion we came to. The -yar may be a Barrayaran dialect suffix meaning place or something similar. IIRC, there's no Russian word with that pronunciation and an appropriate meaning. The -ar(r) found in Komarr and Escobar is probably just coincidence. Or perhaps it's just that Lois likes names ending in that syllable. -- Dan Tilque --------________--------________-------- From dtilque at nwlink.com Tue May 13 07:50:18 2003 From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 23:50:18 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Names about history References: <20030513030535.64378.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006001c3191b$eb4fe900$c97cadcf@nwlink.com> Raye Johnsen performed an arpeggio on a keyboard and produced: Re: 'Tau Verde IV' > That naming system is the > current astronomical system (Terra being officially > 'Sol III') Actually that's an SF convention, not an official astronomical one. Up until a few years ago, no planets outside our solar system were known, so there was no need to name them. They're still not named and won't be until someone confirms their existence by seeing them directly. The planets in the solar system are just called by name, not Sol IV or whatever. Now they do use Roman numerals for satellites of the gas giants, but those are numbered according to order of discovery, not order of distance from the planet. If they did the latter, they'd be having to renumber them almost every time a new satellite is discovered. -- Dan Tilque --------________--------________-------- From theneals at xtra.co.nz Tue May 13 09:07:57 2003 From: theneals at xtra.co.nz (Anita Neal) Date: 13 May 2003 20:07:57 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <000001c3190b$e18329b0$3201a8c0@zamyatin> References: <000001c3190b$e18329b0$3201a8c0@zamyatin> Message-ID: <1052813275.990.18.camel@orac> On Tue, 2003-05-13 at 16:55, David Klecha wrote: > >From the Desk of Damien Sullivan: > > > > more lasting satisfaction than pleasure for itself. Pleasure for its > > > > own sake is slavery. Pleasure in the service of a moral community is > > > > freedom. I think perhaps it's more that pleasure for its own sake is rather sterile. If humans are intended to exist in relationship with one another (and with God) then actions/attitudes which turn one's attention inward rather than outward are unproductive and ultimately lead nowhere. Like that bit in Memory where Miles is ruminating on the fact that his relationship with Elli has no future since she's really in love with Naismith and has no intention of settling with him as Vorkosigan. He realises that much as he loves her, enjoys sex with her etc, there is nothing there but sterility. > > > > > The basic premise, though, is that if you seek pleasure as an end, > you'll always be seeking it, because it's fleeting and impermanent. > Seek the divine, on the other hand, and not only will you Be a Better > Person, so say the Christian traditionalists, but the pleasure you > encounter will uplift you all the more. Or, to put it another way, Christians pursue the Giver rather than the gifts. And the really odd thing is that when you do that, the gifts tend to be thrown in free... TTFN, Anita > > -- > Anita Neal --------________--------________-------- From RosinaRowantree at aol.com Tue May 13 09:25:03 2003 From: RosinaRowantree at aol.com (RosinaRowantree at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 04:25:03 EDT Subject: [LMB] Names about history Message-ID: <4c.1c9b59d6.2bf205df@aol.com> Bo Johansson muses: "About the Bloody Centuries, do you think there were two separate bloody centuries with an interval between, or was there a single two centuries long bloody period?" One Bloody Long Bloody Period - or we would have BC1 and BC2, analagous with WW1 and WW2. And James is reminded of "... the (apocryphal?) story of the film where, at some dramatic point, a messenger rushed in to announce that the Thirty Years War had just started." Sorry, I can't resist being reminded of a tourist in the Catacombs in Rome, looking at the tombs of the Christians buried there. The guide of our little mixed group helpfully pointed out the cross carved in the lid, and said that you could tell from that this was a third century tomb. A female asked: "Is that 3rd century BC or AD?". I won't add the obvious fact - but it was so. Rosina --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Tue May 13 09:38:02 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 04:38:02 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity Message-ID: <003d01c3192a$f83bdf20$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Azalais Malfoy >> Now, he's also using a narrow definition of pleasure; >> fulfillment of desire expressed in such a way that he's >> basically saying instant gratification, and that is where I >> think he's palming a card. > >Yes, I agree. Instant gratification does NOT necessarily lead to >pleasure. I ate a pint of ice cream for dinner and I wish I >hadn't (I've felt better than this!), See, that's an argument for paying respectful attention to pleasure; maybe especially sexual pleasure: it seems to me that the mindless pursuit of pleasure or novel pleasures or anything that even looks like it might live in the same neighbourhood as pleasure comes more from NOT paying attention to pleasure. Of course, given that depression is chemically a lack of the brain chemicals which produce pleasure, and given that I am prone to depression, I think I'm off ascetisicm for life. Junk food lost much of its pleasure value for me when I started to pay attention to my food. This is not to trash icecream. :-) I like icecream. But my tastebuds are not numbed to cr*p anymore, so I don't want or need that sort of overwhelming fat-and-sugar assault on my senses regularly to feel like I've had a treat. Notice I'm not arguing for ascetisism; I'm arguing that actually, if you're paying attention, fruit is intensely pleasureable. Anita Neal: > If humans are intended to exist in relationship with one another (and with God) > then actions/attitudes which turn one's attention inward rather than outward are unproductive > and ultimately lead nowhere. Of course. Self absorption is one of those 'pleasures' that gets really old really quickly. But again, you have to buy the basic assumption that pleasure does that. I do not find this to be so; I find that it turns me outwards and makes me wish to be larger. My most self-absorbed times have been when I was severely depressed and nothing gave me any pleasure, including other people. Not even the times when I have been frantically trying to ward off depression by chasing amusement and fun have left me so; and usually, feeling good myself makes me want to go and find several hundred other people and make them happy too. Now, this is not to say that one must be happy to be kind and therefore the unhappy are permitted to be unkind. But I find that the capacities go together, at least in me; if I can take no pleasure in what's around me, chances are I'm not alert enough to be really seeing other people, either. Quite likely, I'm just enjoying feeling hard done by again and calling that help. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Tue May 13 10:07:06 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 05:07:06 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity Message-ID: <000c01c3192f$072db860$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Also, I would add, it only makes sense to ask the question -- where does pleasure come from -- if there are problematic sources from whence it might arise; whether that's the devil, or *maya*, or whatever. M. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 13 10:26:21 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 05:26:21 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom and nudity References: <20030512.170514.3720.7481@webmail02.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <05d001c31931$c9fc4170$050d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirsten Edwards" > I include this long excerpt rather than provide a link because > I dont intend or want to get into a particular US political > discussion (the remaining 3/4 of the piece.) I found last > paragraph [*--and yes, it does seem to me as if the long > preceeding ones are necc. to appreciate it] v. interesting. > I've tried to snip & edit sections relevant only to a particular > US media-controversy. > > FREEDOM > (some snippage) > From a traditional religious perspective, the freedom of social > liberals is simply the freedom to be enslaved by base desire. > But for social liberals, desire itself has been spiritualized. We > don't hear much talk about the spiritualization of desire from Hmmm, one of the novels by British author Mary Gentle is _The Architecture of Desire_. > say, libertarians. Libertarians are more interested in talking > about their right to pleasure, than about what pleasure actually > means to them. But everywhere in our society, you can see the > signs that pleasure itself has taken on an almost religious aura. > Take this lyric from, "Every Morning," a pop song by Sugar Ray: > > Every morning there's a halo hanging > from the corner of my girlfriend's four post bed, > I know it's not mine but I see if I can use it > for the weekend or a one-night stand... > She always rights the wrong > > This is not how premarital sex would have been sung about > in the Fifties. It was around, but not necessarily sung about that much, at least not that directly in most pop music. Explicit songs have always existed, but how openly acceptable they were was a different issue. > Sure, there's a bit of self-conscious irony to the moral-religious > language here. But basically, the spiritualization of casual sex is > sincerely felt. But, but, but, didn't Augustine's Confessions do something similar? And what of the Song of Solomon?! The above, though, isn't "casual sex." Casual sex is e.g. "Barnacle Bill the Sailor" or "This is number, and the fun has just begun...." > Of course, as [a popular moralist-KAE] William Bennett > would point out, the singer goes on to complain that his > girlfriend has ripped his broken heart out and stopped him > from "believing." "The only truth I know is you." -- Simon & Garfunkel, from one of their songs, 1960s. > The downside of casual sex is there, but mixed with > a sense of sexuality's almost religious character. I don't agree that the description given, though, is casual sex. Casual sex is Ivan among the women on Cetaganda, Betans with young Miles having sex with him out of curiosity, some of Flandry's briefer affairs, A Bertram Chandler's wife swapping among Flandry borrowed out of Poul Anderson's work, and two alternate universe same-Chandler-characters-marrried-to-different-women [the concept of cuckolding you alternate universe self, is something that most writers don't do...], groupies.... > Explicitly or implicitly, spiritualization of pleasure > is everywhere in pop culture. Spiritualization of pleasure in general, isn't restricted to or a characteristic necessarily of, popular culture. "Cathedral of the Pines" up in New Hampshire, which is an outdoor religious facility, among pine trees, is a place of religious spiritual pleasure, configured as Sacred Space because of the feeling of spiritual pleasure/aesthetics of the setting. > REM made the analogy explicit in "Losing My Religion." I'm not familiar with it by name, perhaps by music or words I would be.... > And although the language is not explicitly religious, > Marvin Gaye's "Sexual Healing" Same comment. The names of songs and their audio often don't connect for me. > was important to a lot of people because of it was > so believable as a guilt-free celebration of sex (and > clearly sex between an unmarried couple). As someone who has never been married, the perception of something being restricted to married couples, is not something I find endearing. Therefore, the lines above have assumptions embedded in them that I find rather offensive/very exclusionary. That might not the way it was intended that to be read, but it's how it came out at this end. > THE AESTHETE > America's blue [liberal & urbanized-KAE] > states have largely adopted what we might call an > "aesthetic" culture. A spiritualization of pleasure (music, > drugs, and sex) has in many ways come to replace the > traditional moral-religious framework for which William > Bennett speaks. [snippage, there is "mutual incomprehension > between the aesthete and the traditionalist"] > But, but, but, there have been lots of cultures historically which used music, sex, and/or drugs to achieve spiritual states! The whole of the Orpheus cult involved music, sex as fertility rite was rife, and as for drugs -- look at the ritualized use of alcohol in Judaism and Roman Catholicism! And the reasons for all the strictness involved for wine to be kosher wine, included that the process of making wine in the Middle East in ancient times, tended to involve dedicating the wine being produced, as it was being produced, to one's particularly deity or deities -- and thus wine made by non-Jews, was almost automatically blasphemous for Jews to drink, because drinking it was an act of worship to the deity of the wine-maker! The Oracle at Delphi was apparently Under the Influence of narcotic gas, cultures in what is today the US southwest used e.g. peyote, etc. > From a traditional religious perspective, humans strive > to create a community based on shared moral standards. > Conscious of his own weakness, an individual enters a >community and places himself under the authority of its > moral norms. What? Generally, people are born into a culture, and either accept the rules it has, try to get them changed, or try to leave for some other culture more along the lines of what the person consider appropriate. > He knows that both he and others will at times fail to > meet those norms. There are a bunch of assumptions there, including that all individuals are "moral". Not all people are. Some are very much sociopath/psychopathic and "moral" is a non-existent dimension for them. They obey the rules for any or all of the reasons that it's to their perceived advantage to do so, or doens't provide an advantage to them to transgress. "perceived advantage" can include any or all of "likely cost exceeds likely benefits," "excessive effort involved which doesn't provide worthwhile return," "annoys people they don't want to annoy..." That is, "moral authority" to sociopaths, is something that they themselves don't feel, but which gets imposed from outside upon them and which they may accede to. > Yet a refusal to articulate and impose moral > requirements on himself and others would be an > betrayal of the community itself. It would, so to speak, > be unbrotherly. > Again, there are assumptions involved in that. > The aesthete, on the other hand, is first and foremost > an individual. He substitutes personal expression for > moral judgment. This sounds like Stoicism versus Epicureanism, actually, and that goes back millennia. > To the aesthete, the moralist's judgments are oppressive > attempts to coerce creativity and stifle the inner self. For the > aesthete, music, sex, even drugs, are extensions and revelations > of his spiritual self. > But, but, but, again, there have been religions going back beyond history, which involved music and/or sex and/or drugs. Consider the Bacchae... [hmm, transplant some of them to Barrayar, and aarrggghhhh!!! ] > For the traditional moral man, on the other hand, the > aesthete's refusal to make judgments is tantamount to > withdrawal from the community. Moral man sees the Wait a minute. There's "moral" and there's "moral." Saying that Stoics and rather repressionist religions represent "moral" and that no other "moral" views can exist.... > spiritualized pleasures of the aesthete as a form of idolatry  > an attempt to turn all that is selfish in man into a substitute fo >r God. In >The Closing of the American Mind, Allan Bloom > argued brilliantly that American pop music is, at root, a > sophisticated masturbation fantasy. Eeek. > Bloom was right. Double eek. There are massive judgmental issues here! > But from the perspective of the aesthete, spiritual > satisfaction comes precisely from the elaboration > and contemplation of his pleasures. What??!!! > That is why popular music holds an almost religious > significance for many Americans. [snippage] I don't seen how that follows... I also don't buy the argument. Those who are shallow and narrow, are likewise attracted. I don't comprehen how e.g. "My Sharonna" [spelling] could have an "almost religious significance" for -anyone-! > The spiritualization of pleasure in popular culture is > often shallow and dangerous. Yet that is not to entirely I still don't see where it's "spiritualization." That's like saying that someone who plays fantasy roleplaying games and such and read the books published associated with them, who watches Buffy, Angel, etc., is substituting them for religion! > deny the worth of expressive individualism, which can > take higher forms. In modern democracy, the tension > between shared moral standards and free self-expression > is profound and ineradicable. > > So now we know what competing goods stand behind >our two conceptions of freedom. [eyebrows raised in disbelief/astonishment at what I perceive as temerity] > For the traditionalist, true freedom is expressed in a > community constructed around a shared set of virtues. Um. I wouldn't it "freedom," especially not if the desired mode is e.g. "submission." And I wouldn't necessarily call it "shared set of virtues." Virtues don't have to enter into it al all, it's shared culture and shared traditions and enforced by usually custom, and sometimes stronger enforcement methods, behavior and views and actions and world views. The idea of "freedom" in some cultures is antisocial, the idea of someone -not- conforming, is a threat to the society! > Unless our desires are placed in the service of that community > and those virtues, the "freedom" to follow desire is little short >of slavery. What? Translation? Is that translated as "comply or else" is "freedom" ??! > But for the aesthetic individualists living in "blue America," true > freedom is, at least in part, the ability to express your unique character > through your pleasures. Except, except, except, for those who fit into a culture well, they can and do express their "unique character" through their "pleasures. Getting back to the Nexus, Miles kept asking women to marry him, and they kept saying, "Barrayar, ICK!!! No WAY! You, yes, Barrayar, NO!" Quin couldn't -be- Quin tied down to a Barrayar female's existence. Elena left and never wanted to go back. It wasn't a matter of "pleasure": it was a matter of who they were, and society on Barrayar and gender roles and positions. Ekaterin, however, was Barrayar born and bred to the culture and had a firm place in the society there -- unlike Elena, who was a motherless bastard and whose father was emotionally depraved. Furthermore, Ekaterin's nature, fit in with Barrayer. Cordelia was on Barrayar as a choice, and her place in society on the planet was very ambiguous -- she was the wife of an Imperial Heir, no matter how much he didn't want that position, who was hero of the planet, the Regent, etc. etc. etc. -- and she'd been driven out in essence of her home planet. Plus, Cordelia was a grown, mature women who'd been a spaceship commander, before ever setting foot on Barrayar. Her "pleasures" on Barrayar were her husband, shocking Barrayar society, and sparring with her father-in-law. (Hmm, I wonder -- Piotr's mother-in-law was Betan or some such, he'd probably tangled with her long before tangling with Cordelia!). > Even the pain of a wrecked relationship becomes, > in the aesthete's view, spice to the song. What the > traditionalist might see as a lesson in the social > destructiveness of unchecked pleasure, the expressive > individualist sees as a profound and dramatic chapter > in his personal story. > But, but, but, what about _Job_ ??!!!! >> SIN > Now consider a lyric from, Bob Carlisle's song, > "We Fall Down," which you can hear on any Christian > radio station. I don't listen to Christian radio station, and don't know the song.... > As the song begins, a poor man, burdened by a heavy > load, gazes up at the high cathedral walls of a monastery. >Those high wall make his own life seem miserable and > small by comparison. Envious of the prosperous and > peaceful life of his moral betters, the man asks a priest > about his life behind the walls. The reply is the chorus: > > We fall down, we get up. > We fall down, we get up. > We fall down, we get up. > And the saints are just the sinners > Who fall down and get up. > > The lesson the poor man draws from this revelation > is that, "if even priests who fail can find the grace of > God...there must be some hope for the rest of us." > But, that sort of song almost every culture has some form of, regarding keeping trudging on.... the particular religious aspects don't necessarily enter, however. > There is nothing in the least surprising about this song. >Yet it's moral presuppositions are almost totally alien > to a blue-state aesthete. Are they? The idea of -persistence_ "Ooops there goes another rubber tree plant!" , or the tale of the rabbit and the hare, and Aristotle was NOT Christian, etc., don't have to into religion. Sisyphus does, but.... > How else can we explain the puzzling notion, so > prevalent among [edited--those who criticize moralists, > that a moral lapse on their part would somehow invalidate > traditional morality itself?] Moral traditionalists set the bar > high, knowing full well that all men will fall short  moralizers > no less than the rest. In contrast, the aesthete's response to > a failing in the moralist is to throw the bar away altogether. That seems a baseless assumption to me there. > Martin Luther in his day, like William Bennett in ours, was Who's William Bennett? > a moral crusader on behalf of marriage and the family. > Luther rejected the Catholic Church's elevation of celibacy, > and what he believed to be the Church's excessively negative > view of sex within marriage. Luther ended the practice of > sending young girls off to nunneries without their consent, and >in many other ways reformed marriage along more modern lines. Um... marriage existed in lots of cultures besides Roman Catholicism -- Jews married, Moslems married, Buddhists married, animists married, Copts married, Eastern Orthodox married, Druse married, etc. > Yet for all that, Luther retained the notion of original sin. Again, this is within the context of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism instituted by Martin Luther. > For Luther, something of our original corruption always > clung to sex, even within marriage. Yet, because marriage > was God's work  God's way of securing and perpetuang > human society and his Church Luther believe that God > excused the sin of sex within marriage. > > The notion that some quality of sinfulness always > clings to sex is exactly what the aesthete is trying to > transcend. Again, this to a degree goes back at least to Stoicism versus Epicureanism, and Epicureanism has been being given a bum rap to a degree, for a very very very long time. > Marvin Gaye set out to eradicate the sinfulness of sex, with Marvin Gaye? Oh, pop singer or some such mentioned above? > considerable success. Nowadays, it's tough for an expressive > individualist even to grasp what the intrinsic sinfulness of sex > could possibly mean. Just listen to some of the modern televangelists.... > The whole notion seems cruel and vicious. Take a look at some of what various politicians say... > But to traditionalists, the recalcitrant sinfulness of sex is a > reminder that pleasure takes its meaning and justification > from subordination to something higher. Pleasure put in > the service of God's good works brings a deeper and more > lasting satisfaction than pleasure for itself. Pleasure for its > own sake is slavery. Pleasure in the service of a moral community > is freedom. > Someone has a VERY peculiar definition of "freedom" there! All those women who recoiled at the thought of being Lady Vorkosigan on Barrayar, would NOT have agreed with that definition! And Miles wouldn't either, I expect. He chose service to Barrayar, and kept choosing it, of his own choice. He saw himself as committed to his heritage, but didn't see "pleasure in the service of a moral coummunity" as freedom, particularly not since Barrayar was hardly the most moral society going -- not the most immoral one, but it had its traditions and ways, different from those of other planets, but the ones Miles had been raised to. > *The traditional perspective is profound, yet its great > vulnerability is that it cannot work in the absence of a > coherent community. Long ago in college, I remember someone talking about having broken with the insular Jewish sect community in New York City he had grown up in. He had left it, someone who didn't fit in emotionally and intellectually, but who had expended so much effort leaving, that he no longer knew who he was, what he wanted, where he might be able to fit it.... where he'd grown up he knew the rules; he hadn't liked them, but he knew the community rules and expectation -- but he didn't know anymore, where he could go, and he wondered if the price of leaving, wasn't too high, that perhaps he should not tried to break away.... > Only the reality of a broader fellowship makes the > sacrifice of lower pleasures worthwhile. Nowadays, > we take offense at the idea of friends, neighbors, or > relatives making moral judgments about our personal affairs. People have objected to that through all of history, and before. > But in the old small towns and ethnic neighborhoods, > your relatives and neighbors watched your kids, got > you a job, and in a thousand other ways, enlarged your life. And if you didn't fit or transgressed.... "honor killings" still occur, even in the USA. I wouldn't call that :"enlarged your life." Nepotism etc. still exist. > In that supportive context, moral demands designed to keep > communities alive did not feel intolerable. That depended on the person and what they were or were not getting, and the situation still exists. There's a high end jeweler on Cape Cod who graduated from Harvard and apprenticed himself to a goldsmith. His mother was so furious with him that allegedly she stopped talking to him for a year.... Ultimately when he had proved that his choice of career was financially successful etc., his mother got over it and accepted his choice, but originally.... > Only in such a world of mutual sacrifice and fellowship > does the image of Christ on the cross make sense. It';s the image from a particular religion, and to other religions, may or may not be an image/concept of value/reverence. > But to the expressive individualists living in our > relatively atomized social spaces, moral demands > (and the ethos of sacrifice they depend upon) seem > merely cruel and incomprehensible. To individuals of various other religions, Jesus on the cross can seem less than exalting. It's a particular symbology and icon which has certain meanings and importance in Christianity, and doesn't have that relevance necessarily to those of other creeds and beliefs. And it's not a matter of "traditional religious perception" because, again, it is a touchstone for Christianity, but not most other religions. --------________--------________-------- From pam at gotcher.us Tue May 13 12:18:14 2003 From: pam at gotcher.us (Pam) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 06:18:14 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom and nudity References: <20030512.170514.3720.7481@webmail02.lax.untd.com> <05d001c31931$c9fc4170$050d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <006901c31941$5894a0d0$6c3a0144@Laptop> Paula Asks: Who's William Bennett? Me: He's the guy who writes on virtues who recently was exposed for having list millions of dollars gambling. He never spoke against gambling, of course. Now he says he won't gamble anymore. But it took a public (National TV) exposure to show that his house was as glass as any others. Pam --------________--------________-------- From pnewman at gci.net Tue May 13 13:08:22 2003 From: pnewman at gci.net (Peter Newman) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 04:08:22 -0800 Subject: [LMB] freedom and nudity OT: References: <200305131102.h4DB29r5011395@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EC0E036.6080703@gci.net> "Paula Lieberman" >>Martin Luther in his day, like William Bennett in ours, was > > > Who's William Bennett? A right wing American politician, formerly Education Secretary under President Reagan. He's gone on to have his own little cottage industry urging people to be moral and decent and proper and virtuous. Last week it was revealed that he's lost $8 million US gambling in the last 10 years or so. This is seen as hypocrisy by some. --------________--------________-------- From dave at klech.net Tue May 13 13:30:21 2003 From: dave at klech.net (David Klecha) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 07:30:21 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <010701c31914$93865300$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Message-ID: <000201c3194b$6f134000$3201a8c0@zamyatin> >From the Desk of Marna Nightingale > Hey, good to see you. Hey, good to be seen. :) The nearly-wife and I are still planning on TorCon. We be seeing you there, yes? > Now, he's also using a narrow definition of pleasure; > fulfillment of desire expressed in such a way that he's > basically saying instant gratification, and that is where I > think he's palming a card. No doubt. But, especially among the more enthusiastic circles of Christians, I think, "hedonism" (if we can say that) is perceived as a Real and Scary Problem. It's easier for them to try to boil the argument down, than to confuse it with a lot of qualifications. Not that he's right to do so, imho. Dave --------________--------________-------- From dave at klech.net Tue May 13 13:44:46 2003 From: dave at klech.net (David Klecha) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 07:44:46 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <20030512230059.W90688-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <000301c3194d$70bf0950$3201a8c0@zamyatin> >From the Desk of Azalais Malfoy: > > On Mon, 12 May 2003, David Klecha wrote: > > > The basic premise, though, is that if you seek pleasure as an end, > > you'll always be seeking it, because it's fleeting and impermanent. > > Buddhists would be very surprised to hear that this is a > uniquely Christian idea. Didn't say it *was* uniquely Christian, just that it sounds like that's the perspective the author is writing from. > > It's perfectly convincing to me; I understand what the author's > > saying, and I've seen what I think to be the effects (both positive > > and negative) in support of the philosophy in my own life > and others. > > It's perfectly unconvincing to me. I understand perfectly > why some sacrifices might be necessary to have a functioning > society, or I wouldn't be willing to pay any taxes at all. > > I just don't see the value to society of people having > miserable sexual lives because they happen to be gay, or > poly, or something else that doesn't fit into a > one-size-doesn't-fit-all definition of The Family. Well, and this would be one area where I think some more enthusiastic Christians and I part ways; they want to see society remade to their own liking, in their own lifetime, and I'm more content to let it go. IF you were a Christian and IF you bought into more of its central themes, THEN I might be prone to discussing why such sacrifice is one of the ultimate, transcendant Goods of Life, but you're not and I don't believe in trying to force to you to be otherwise. The idea is convincing to me, therefore it is part of my life, my walk with God, if you will. I don't need it to be law. Dave --------________--------________-------- From mel_in_kanazawa at yahoo.com.au Tue May 13 13:57:34 2003 From: mel_in_kanazawa at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Melanie=20Harris?=) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:57:34 +1000 (EST) Subject: [LMB] Re: Who wants Japanese copies? (was Re: Russian "Civil Campaign") Message-ID: <20030513125734.86972.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> I (Mel Harris, that's me!) asked: >Oooh, good point. Given that I'm happily ensconced in >Kanazawa, Japan right now, does anyone want >Japanese-language copies of any of Lois's books? and David Bernat queried: > Which publishing house? Hayakawa? I haven't seen > anything by LMB at the local bookstore in Japanese. but before I could respond, Lois chipped in: > Tokyo Sogen-sha My first response: "EEEEE! Lois responded to a thread I sorta started! EEEEE!" <--fangirlish squealing, sorry, I'll stop in a second... *ahem* My second response: "Oh good, I don't have to look up the pronunciation of those kanji now..." > They have bought or published most of the series up > to -- I think _Komarr_ -- in any case, my translator > is still at work. _Mirror Dance_ was recently > published in two parts. *Finding* them, now... I'd > be curious about a report on the books' > availability. Hmmm. Well, the ones I've got so far are _Mirror Dance_ (in two parts, yes, and under the same name); _Borders of Infinity_ (called _Mugen no kyoukai_, not a bad translation); and _Brothers in Arms_ (_Shin'ai naru kuro-n_, "Beloved Clone", which seems a bit... off... to me, not to mention being a bit of a spoiler!). They were published respectively in 2002, 1994 (my copy reprinted in 1998), and 1993 (reprint 1997), and they were right there on the shelf when I asked about them. I remember that some of the other books were there, too, and have since been bought by someone else; later more appeared in their place. You're popular in Kanazawa, Lois! > It is my understanding that Japanese publishers > print sparingly, and that paperbacks are only > available for a few months after publication, but > I'd be glad to learn that is not true. How easy is > it to special order books or older books not on the > shelves, over there? Here, in the shop I found them at (the Meitetsu Book Plaza)? Easy as anything. Yes, it does sometimes happen that a book someone wants to order is no longer being printed and the publisher has sold all the copies they had, but that doesn't seem to have happened with any of your books (yay!). The Meitetsu are very good about looking things up, seem to keep them in stock semi-regularly, and are perfectly willing to special-order either Japanese or English versions (though the English will take a while to arrive!) -- this seems to be part of the usual good service you get in shops over here. Oh, and David? If you can't find Lois's books easily in Tokyo, I'd be more than happy to mail you some. Heck, I've already posted over 80 volumes of manga to a friend in America, what's a little postage *inside* the country? ===== Melanie Harris .....now in Kanazawa, JAPAN! (Yokatta ne!) http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Tue May 13 15:30:01 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 08:30:01 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Happy Birthday to... Robin Anderson! Message-ID: <003401c3195c$23b73240$82f3f5ce@puter> Your Birthday Tixie (Temporary) digs deeply into the memory bank... circa 1997/1998... and recalls once-active listie Robin Anderson of the Great South Continent (hee! Australia, that is). We haven't heard from Robin in quite some time, I note--are you still about, though lurking, old friend?--but in the hopes that he may read this: Happy 48th Birthday, Robin! May the day bring you-- oh, wait. Let me rephrase that: May the day have brought you sunshine and smiles, the greetings of friends, and the warmth of family. And may what's now left of the evening bring you a laughing celebration, lots of new books, and at least one nice, cold bottle of Fosters. Happy birthday! ~ Kay, TempTixie, who recently had the opportunity to discover that Aussies do brew a drinkable beer, unlike the skunk juice of British Guiness.... ===== ~~O8:> --------________--------________-------- From Joy.Luckabaugh at lexisnexis.com Tue May 13 15:41:29 2003 From: Joy.Luckabaugh at lexisnexis.com (Luckabaugh, Joy H. (LNG-BET)) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:41:29 -0400 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: freedom and nudity Message-ID: <38A60BEBEF60234CB599A1FD4BE466E5815660@LNXBETEXCH00.lexisne xis.com> > From: "Kirsten Edwards" (quoted from an article) > > Martin Luther in his day, like William Bennett in ours, was Paula Lieberman wrote: > Who's William Bennett? Former "Drug Czar", author of _The Book of Virtues_, and moral crusader recently revealed to have lost over $8 million in high-stakes gambling. Irony. It's not *just* a literary device. (Can't actually call hypocrisy since the man apparently never crusaded against gambling per se) Joy Luckabaugh Joy.Luckabaugh at LexisNexis.com --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 13 16:06:47 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 11:06:47 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: "Yar" Message-ID: <4a.1ca84d94.2bf26407@aol.com> In a message dated 5/13/2003 4:40:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: I had just assumed it was a corruption of the word "earth," ala Schmitz, where he has one of his characters say something like "everybody is still back on old Yarth." Then again, LMB may just have sought inspiration from a Siamese cat.... Mary > > And where did that -yar or -arr ending come from? It's > >obviously an established convention, since Sergyar got named > >Sergyar, and not Serg-some other suffix. And not just a > >Barrayaran one at that. --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Fri May 9 18:56:05 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:56:05 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Issues OT: Message-ID: <02f001c317ea$56999e00$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Michael R N Dolbear wrote: > in >order that water may not pass your lips you doubtless brush your teeth with >a light Bordeaux ? Anybody who does that ought to be shot at dawn, and to H*ll with pacifism and to H*ell with my dislike of getting up early even. But while I take your point, I think that your example person would still be arguing for 'higer' standards, on the grounds of using a superior measurement. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From bo.h.johansson at bredband.net Mon May 12 12:20:31 2003 From: bo.h.johansson at bredband.net (Bo Johansson) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:20:31 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Names about history References: <00c901c31862$b2cac280$1e64adcf@nwlink.com> Message-ID: <000f01c31878$7fade1f0$ab6c72d5@05we7eawlrqm6us> On May 12, 2003 "Dan Tilque" wrote: > > The names we know historical events and eras by are often > not those the participants used. ---SNIP--- > > So it appears in Barrayaran history. Some time ago, in a > discussion about the Firsters, I pointed out that that > was a name most likely applied by later historians. On > reading a passage in MD, I realized that two other terms > about Barrayaran history are also after the fact names: > the Time of Isolation and the Bloody Centuries.---SNIP--- I'm not so sure about the Firsters, they might have named themselves "Firsters" since they were the first wave of colonists. Later when it became clear that there would be no further waves, the name might have stuck as a name for the first generation of Barrayarans. About the Bloody Centuries, do you think there were two separate bloody centuries with an interval between, or was there a single two centuries long bloody period? // Bo Johansson --------________--------________-------- From mizuhoy at libra.plala.or.jp Tue May 13 06:39:09 2003 From: mizuhoy at libra.plala.or.jp (Mizuho Yoshida) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:39:09 +0900 Subject: [LMB] Who wants Japanese copies? (was Re: Russian "Civil Campaign") References: Message-ID: <001201c31911$fa6705e0$f80a2fda@gc> David Bernat wrote: > Which publishing house? Hayakawa? I haven't seen anything > by LMB at the local bookstore in Japanese. They are published by Sogen-sha (Sogen SF Bunko). The titles are: "Senshi Shigan" = "Warrior's Apprentice" "Mugen no Kyoukai" = "Border of Infinity" "Voru Geimu" = "Vor Game" "Spiritto Rinngu" = "Spirit Ring" "Tenkuu no Isann" = "Cetaganda" "Miraa Dansu" ( in two volumes) = "Mirror Dance" "Barayaa Nairann" = "Barrayar" Happy shopping! (If you have Japanese font, I can send Japanese letters titles to you.) Mizuho Yoshida, Musashino-shi Tokyo PS- Ms Ogiso, the translator is now preparing the translation of "Ethan of Athos", I believe. --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Tue May 13 15:55:00 2003 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:55:00 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Availability of Japanese copies (survey on Amazon.co.jp) Message-ID: > From: Mizuho Yoshida > Date: 13 May 2003 07:01 > > Lois asked the availability of Japanese copies... > "Spiritto Rinngu" (= Spirit Ring) (\980) (3-4 days) [...] > "Miraa Dannsu, volume 1" (= Mirror Dance) (\960) (3-4 days) Can I ask how the titles sound to a Japanese ear ? Are all of Spiritto, Rinngu, Miraa, Dannsu assimilated loan words or are they exotically foreign like anime or senshi in English ? -- Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Tue May 13 18:26:55 2003 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 12:26:55 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Weird link of the Day Fw: Stupid pet tricks, or a more nefarious game.... Message-ID: <001301c31974$e0dd3500$0500000a@oemcomputer> OK, this one's good... Are you missing shoes? http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/sundaystartimes/auckland/0,2106,2468123a6016,00. html Ta, L. --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Tue May 13 18:31:03 2003 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 12:31:03 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: "Yar" Message-ID: <000f01c31975$71bbb1a0$0500000a@oemcomputer> It's a real Russian word, I believe -- comes from "Babi Yar", and refers to some geographical feature that escapes my memory at present -- "valley", I think. So Barrayar and Sergyar share that root. Komarr, I just liked the sound of. Ta, L. CatMtn at aol.com CatMtn at aol.com I had just assumed it was a corruption of the word "earth," ala Schmitz, where he has one of his characters say something like "everybody is still back on old Yarth." Then again, LMB may just have sought inspiration from a Siamese cat.... Mary > > And where did that -yar or -arr ending come from? It's > >obviously an established convention, since Sergyar got named > >Sergyar, and not Serg-some other suffix. And not just a > >Barrayaran one at that. --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Tue May 13 18:36:07 2003 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 12:36:07 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Fw: Stupid pet tricks, or a more nefarious game.... Message-ID: <001701c31976$29323f20$0500000a@oemcomputer> Are you missing shoes? http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/sundaystartimes/auckland/0,2106,2468123a6016,00. html I see one must hand-re-attach the html tag to get it to work, if it is cut off by the line break. Sorry... Ta, L. --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue May 13 18:57:34 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:57:34 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <05d001c31931$c9fc4170$050d4b43@LAPTOP> References: <20030512.170514.3720.7481@webmail02.lax.untd.com> <05d001c31931$c9fc4170$050d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <20030513175734.GA24564@ofb.net> On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 05:26:21AM -0400, Paula Lieberman wrote: > > The aesthete, on the other hand, is first and foremost an individual. He > > substitutes personal expression for moral judgment. > > This sounds like Stoicism versus Epicureanism, actually, and that goes back > millennia. Hey, I was going to bring up Epicureanism, good time to jump in. Pleasure was the explicit measure, in a way that it's not for modern secular humanists or womever. And the Epicureans were about as materialist as one could ask for -- no afterlife, some gods but they really didn't count. Yet a very little bit of reading shows that the Epicureans had a more nuanced view of pleasure than the carnal hedonism usually associated with them. Grosser pleasures were considered damaging if involved in to excess, so while you obviously wanted good food and shelter you were encouraged to seek most pleasure in more intellectual pursuits, doing geometry or playing music with your friends in the Garden or something. Also sex was distrusted as being very risky and disruptive and was discouraged, although Epicurus seems to have encouraged the education of women and their inclusion in his school, to the scandal of the neighbors. (And this seems a real improvement on Democritus; in most other areas I've found Democritus to be more sophisticated and palatable than Epicurus.) So we've got a bunch of pleasure seeking materialists with very little traditional about them whose surface behavior is hard to distinguish from a genteel co-ed monastery... > > To the aesthete, the moralist's judgments are oppressive attempts to > > coerce creativity and stifle the inner self. For the aesthete, music, sex, > > even drugs, are extensions and revelations of his spiritual self. I'll also note that the whole piece seemed to be talking about morality as vice-regulating morality. There's an implication that liberals or libertarians as aethetes don't have any morality, which is of course false; it's just that libertarian morality is about how you relate to other people. "Don't murder. Don't steal. Don't trust the government." Probably everyone knew this, but I thought it worthwhile to make explicit that we're talking not about morality vs. non-morality, but about various societal taboos vs. "don't do anything non-consensual". > > For the traditional moral man, on the other hand, the aesthete's refusal > > to make judgments is tantamount to withdrawal from the community. Moral > > man sees the Hey, I make judgements. is a lying weasel and this is evil. Scientists actually have a very strong if simple morality, and I think they may be less forgiving than usual. We just don't make moral judgements about sex, unless lying or disease is involved. I agree with Dave that the whole thing is based in Christian tenets. And I think it's not so alien that us non-Christians can't understand the reasoning, given the tenets. For me at least, it's the tenets themselves such as original sin and the omnipotent and omnibenevolent god and reincarnation (I'm skipping over to Buddhism) which are alien and non-comprehensible. Grant those and other stuff makes sense, but I don't grant them, so all we can do is fall back onto liberal toleration of each other's ways. > > And the saints are just the sinners > > Who fall down and get up. > >Yet it's moral presuppositions are almost totally alien > > to a blue-state aesthete. > But, that sort of song almost every culture has some form of, regarding > keeping trudging on.... the particular religious aspects don't necessarily > enter, however. A materialist can easily say that: this is the only life we get, after all, don't give it up! But we'd have different definitions of "fall down". For a real spiritualization of pleasure in SF, I'd say look at the Culture. Civilization was wish-fulfillment, humans as hedonistic partiers, because that's what humans are good at, vs. the machines. But there was a sense of service too, helping the less fortunate outsiders, "there but for the grace of a lot of luck and hard work by our ancestors go we", and I'm sure Banks really enjoyed setting up the Culture-Idiran war as a religious was started by the materialist Culture, because the Idirans were gobbling up the potential space for the Culture's good works. (By contrast I've wondered about MacLeod's Solar Union -- very Culture like, but having incorporated all of willing Earth and having no aliens there wasn't any room for something like Contact. Just hedonism, research, and vigilance against the posthuman threat.) -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Tue May 13 19:10:19 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 11:10:19 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: shorter links, was Fw: Stupid pet tricks, or a more nefarious game.... In-Reply-To: <001701c31976$29323f20$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <003f01c3197a$eab76d60$f6422904@earthlink.net> > Are you missing shoes? > http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/sundaystartimes/auckland/0,2106,2 > 468123a6016,00. > html > > I see one must hand-re-attach the html tag to get it to work, > if it is cut off > by the line break. Sorry... > > Ta, L. For such links, you may find http://makeashorterlink.com/about.php helpful. It translates that link to: http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q4E512D84 Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Tue May 13 19:10:20 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:10:20 +0100 Subject: [LMB] All Knowledge is found on this List OT: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030513190625.03a4d0f8@pop.luna.co.uk> All the slide show software I have makes you push PgUp or PgDn or cursor arrow keys. Anyone know any decent freeware which uses mouse buttons? (And maybe expands/contracts any size of image so that it fills the screen on one axis.) James - who has a lot of pictures from the Trans- Siberian Express Trip --------________--------________-------- From iosef at gothic.net.au Tue May 13 19:39:30 2003 From: iosef at gothic.net.au (I) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 04:39:30 +1000 Subject: [LMB] All Knowledge is found on this List OT: In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030513190625.03a4d0f8@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20030514043701.00b6e0f0@mail.gothic.net.au> At 04:10 AM 14/05/2003, James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: >All the slide show software I have makes you push >PgUp or PgDn or cursor arrow keys. Anyone know >any decent freeware which uses mouse buttons? >(And maybe expands/contracts any size of image >so that it fills the screen on one axis.) IrfanView allows a choise of advance after time, advance after key/mouse, random after time, random after key/mouse. Also allows "fit to screen" as an option. Good freeware. Small program. Latest version is 3.80 I think. Iestyn --------________--------________-------- From bo at dendarii.com Tue May 13 19:40:39 2003 From: bo at dendarii.com (Bo Johansson) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:40:39 +0200 Subject: [LMB] All Knowledge is found on this List OT: References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030513190625.03a4d0f8@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <001301c3197f$26ae6450$ab6c72d5@05we7eawlrqm6us> On Tuesday, May 13, 2003 8:10 PM [GMT+1 (or +2)], James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: > All the slide show software I have makes you push > PgUp or PgDn or cursor arrow keys. Anyone know > any decent freeware which uses mouse buttons? > (And maybe expands/contracts any size of image > so that it fills the screen on one axis.) The Opera web browser has a fullscreen mode called OperaShow that works as a slide show presentation tool: http://www.opera.com/support/tutorials/operashow/ And in Opera you can navigate with mouse gestures: http://www.opera.com/features/mouse/index.dml I don't know about image sizes, but since the presentation is just HTML, I imagine that you can just write the desired image size in the IMG tag. Opera isn't actually freeware, the free version is ad-supported, but in fullscreen mode you don't see the ads. // Bo Johansson --------________--------________-------- From christine at forber.net Tue May 13 19:52:54 2003 From: christine at forber.net (Christine Forber) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:52:54 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: shorter links, was Fw: Stupid pet tricks, or a more nefarious game.... In-Reply-To: <003f01c3197a$eab76d60$f6422904@earthlink.net> References: <001701c31976$29323f20$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: At 11:10 AM 5/13/2003 -0700, Laura Gallagher wrote: >> Are you missing shoes? >> http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/sundaystartimes/auckland/0,2106,2 >> 468123a6016,00. >> html >> >> I see one must hand-re-attach the html tag to get it to work, >> if it is cut off by the line break. Sorry... >> >> Ta, L. > >For such links, you may find >http://makeashorterlink.com/about.php >helpful. It translates that link to: > >http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q4E512D84 The other option that I use is http://www.tinyurl.com. That link becomes http://tinyurl.com/bn9e . Christine --------________--------________-------- From sbanker at purdue.edu Tue May 13 20:03:30 2003 From: sbanker at purdue.edu (Samantha Banker) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:03:30 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Availability of Japanese copies (survey on Amazon.co.jp) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c31982$57e45310$91c9d380@BANKER> Since it sounds extremely close to the English word, and I suspect it is written in katakana (syllabary used for foreign loan words), to the Japanese ear it sounds like an English word. Or that's what my year slightly plus of university Japanese classes tell me. Samantha > Can I ask how the titles sound to a Japanese ear ? > > Are all of Spiritto, Rinngu, Miraa, Dannsu assimilated loan words or are > they exotically foreign like anime or senshi in English ? > > -- > Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Tue May 13 20:25:25 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:25:25 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity Message-ID: <20030513.122554.12372.7127@webmail07.lax.untd.com> Malfoy (Thank you--I can spell that! :-) comments: "Well, I've never been anything but an aesthete, I guess... But this piece, while interesting, definitely seemed to be biased in favor of the traditionalists." Interesting. How so? Kirsten (who thought it a nice analysis of the competing goods with points to be made on both sides :-) ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From kknight at epix.net Tue May 13 20:35:33 2003 From: kknight at epix.net (Katrina Knight) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:35:33 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Fw: Stupid pet tricks, or a more nefarious game.... OT: In-Reply-To: <001701c31976$29323f20$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030513152931.033d5100@in.epix.net> At 01:36 PM Tuesday 05/13/03 Lois McMaster Bujold wrote: >Are you missing shoes? >http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/sundaystartimes/auckland/0,2106,2468123a6016,00. >html > >I see one must hand-re-attach the html tag to get it to work, if it >is cut off >by the line break. Sorry... Many email clients will keep URLs without line breaks if you enclose them in angle brackets like this: . I'm so glad my shoe-loving cat doesn't emulate this one and actually go out stealing shoes. He confines himself to loving the shoes that are already here - sticking his head in them, hugging them, etc. He often sits on one shoe of a pair and puts his head in the other to sniff the glorious smell of dirty feet. Most cats like catnip. He likes old shoes. Yuck! -- Katrina Knight kknight at epix.net --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Tue May 13 20:36:53 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:36:53 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity Message-ID: <20030513.123706.12372.7201@webmail07.lax.untd.com> Lorraine wonders about the connection between the essay excerpt I included and the discussions of nursing and nudity in public spaces. 1) Competing goods 2) mutally incomprehensible worldviews. >From the obBujold perspective, I thought it resonated nicely with those Barrayar vs. Beta Coloney debates that keep springing up... Kirsten Edwards N.B. I have no idea what the author of the essay's religious views are. But here's a brief bio: http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/bios/kurtz.html ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Tue May 13 20:39:56 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:39:56 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <20030513175734.GA24564@ofb.net> References: <05d001c31931$c9fc4170$050d4b43@LAPTOP> <20030512.170514.3720.7481@webmail02.lax.untd.com> <05d001c31931$c9fc4170$050d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030513143210.02dff0b0@mail.iqcisp.com> At 10:57 AM 5/13/2003 -0700, Damien Sullivan wrote: > > > For the traditional moral man, on the other hand, the aesthete's refusal > > > to make judgments is tantamount to withdrawal from the community. Moral > > > man sees the > >Hey, I make judgements. is a lying weasel and >this is evil. Scientists actually have a very strong if simple morality, and >I think they may be less forgiving than usual. Morality and science comes up pretty often in another forum I frequent, often cast in the form of "(My) Religion = Morality, Unlike You Amoral Evil Scientists." As far as I've been able to determine, the real answer is in two parts: (1) on most matters there is no specific "scientist morality" any more than there is bicycle-enthusiast morality or auto-mechanic morality or people-who-live-in-suburbs-beginning-with-the-letter-P morality. Scientists, being humans, cover the spectrum. (2) The exception is the scientific method, which cast in moral terms states Thou Shalt Not Lie, Ever. This generally takes the form not of a negative prohibition but of a positive commandment, Thou Shalt Check Thy Facts, Always. This particular bit, as noted above, is a very strongly held precept. Gray areas like "I could have checked my facts, but I forgot" or "I was pretty sure it was true, so I said it as if I had checked it" are stomped on just as hard as "I lied knowingly." Louann --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Tue May 13 21:10:41 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:10:41 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity Message-ID: <20030513.131048.12372.7424@webmail07.lax.untd.com> Marna writes that the definition of "pleasure" seems to be instant gratification: "It would make more sense to say pleasure, happiness, satisfaction, fulfillment, and joy." I must disagree, since pleasure is not the same thing as happiness or joy (though satisfaction, yes). One's pleasure's may tend to lead to these things (aesthetic model) even if one takes detours via quite a bit of pain. Or it may tend *not* do so, unless one subjects the pleasures to quite a bit of painful restraints (Sin model? Traditionalist model? Not sure what to call it.) I'm with C.S. Lewis on pleasure (a Christian model, but not *the* Christian model :-), but I thought the distinctions Kurtz drew--which apply to quite a few religions even some non-Western ones-- were interesting. Fascinating what gets read into it, though --it does seem as if the divide of incomprehension goes deep. As a Christian libertarian I find find something to appeal in both veiws (An excercise: What do you get when either is taken to extremes/goes bad?) For my fellow 'Murcan's there's the wonderful dichotomy we face in child rearing: Tyranny in the service of freedom: We must rule our children during their green youth in order that they may be free to do as they will when adults. (Kay Horowitz outlines the radical--and fairly uniquely USAn philosophy--in READY OR NOT,*) Or the notion that self-sacrifice is something other than a masochistic folly for wanna-be doormats (aka "why the sociobiologists keep having to tell Just So Stories about altruism :-) There's both a Miles *and* an Ekaterin moment in there, I'm sure. Kirsten Edwards ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Tue May 13 21:11:50 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <20030513.122554.12372.7127@webmail07.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <20030513130301.M3748-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Tue, 13 May 2003, Kirsten Edwards wrote: > Malfoy (Thank you--I can spell that! :-) comments: > > "Well, I've never been anything but an aesthete, I guess... > > But this piece, while interesting, definitely seemed to be biased > in favor of the traditionalists." > > Interesting. How so? I'd have to have it in front of me to mine specific quotes, but I know I'm not the only one who thought so. The way they defined 'pursuit of pleasure' for instance. If you are really pursuing pleasure, meaningless sex with strangers in bars probably isn't what you'll do. This is what people do when they don't have TIME to either get into and maintain a relationship or to get into a situation where they can have casual sex without it being skanky and dirty, when they reduce sex to something they do on a break or on the way home. (It's a way of dealing with sexual needs that developed during the days when men who had sex with other men had to sneak around a lot and were frequently married, due to that good old community intervention in their lives.) Just like if I had really been pursuing pleasure I wouldn't have had Haagen-Dazs for dinner last night. This is what happens when people aren't paying attention to their needs. It's not hedonism. It's overextended people trying to do things surreptitiously or hurriedly. When I actually eat ice cream for the sheer pleasure of it, I don't finish the pint because I have somehow not managed to notice that I've eaten so much of it there's not enough left to be more than a tease when I go back to it. I do this kind of thing when I am eating in front of the computer, like an idiot. Then I realize I have ingested so darn many calories I really can't eat anything else for a while. Yuck. And the way they subtly were in favor of the "self-sacrifice" and chose only sex-pleasure-positive songs to quote that were about people who weren't really happy. ~malfoy, pleased you can spell The Name :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue May 13 21:18:34 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:18:34 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Fascist Barrayar? Message-ID: <20030513201834.GA17440@ofb.net> David Friedman asked on rasfw for example of books with sympathetic portrayals of Fascism, like all the alleged examples of sympathetic portrayals of Communism. Someone said >Even since Aral Vorkosigan's remark, "If we had had mind control, >I would have used it", I have thought that Lois McMaster Bujold's >Barrayar books have had a sympathetic regime with fascist tendencies >and occasional acts. to which I replied: When did Aral say that? But yeah, being a fan of the books and then imagining being a civil libertarian on Barrayar -- or someone in Human Right Watch, I guess -- viewing ImpSec from the outside is a shaking experience. Pull people off the street and truth-drug them, no right to due process, some media control although possibly not exercised much under Gregor. I'm not sure if it's really a nice view of fascism vs. a nice view of enlightened feudalism or enlightened despotism. See what can happen when the Good Guys are in charge! Of course it's convenient that Komarr submitted so readily. Note how no sympathetic character questions the occupation and annexation of Komarr. I suppose it would help to agree on what fascism really means. Barrayar: cult of militarism, check. (Veterans are "honorary Vor".) Personality cult of the leader, semi-check -- classrooms are required to have pictures of the Emperor and the Count (Memory or some other later book, where Miles goes to visit and they have a non-standard picture of him up as well). Secret police with near absolute power to disappear someone, check. (They just only disappear the right people.) Lack of ability to change your leaders short of civil war, check. (Although a recent innovation allows you to change the Count you live under.) Strong gender roles, check. Prejudice against the physically infirm, check check check. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Tue May 13 21:22:44 2003 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:22:44 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: stiff-necked (OT:) References: <001f01c318b5$985dfef0$3201a8c0@mbaxis> <3EC033B0.1070400@balafon.net> Message-ID: <001401c3198d$94c83de0$3201a8c0@mbaxis> On Monday, May 12, 2003 7:52 PM, Gordon Tisher wrote: > Michael Bauminger wrote: > >This holds true for Arabic pronunciations as well as > > for Hebrew ones; for example, Hummus starts with > > a "ch" sound, not an "h" sound. > > > Arabic has 3 "h" sounds: Y (haa'), X. (khaa' -- your > "ch" above) and X- (Haa'). Hummus starts with X-, which > is pronounced like "h", but with the throat tightened > (voiceless laryngeal or pharyngeal fricative). I should have been clearer. Hummus starts with what I called the soft "ch" sound. Those sounds exist in Hebrew too, although some of the nuances of pronunciation are often lost by western Jews for whom Hebrew, Aramaic, and Arabic are no longer first languages. -- Michael --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Tue May 13 21:33:36 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:33:36 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: To err is human, to digress inevitable Message-ID: <20030513.133407.12372.7536@webmail07.lax.untd.com> Paula Asks: Who's William Bennett? And Pam, Joy & Peter replied (so far), which is the reason I went to all the trouble to edit the fool thing I also took the time to *identify* the fellow in the first place with what I hope was a fairly neutral but descriptive term [popular moralist. I thought about "populist moralizer" but decided the connotations were too expressive :-)] FWIW that's what the rest of the essay was about: http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz.asp (about wh. I could care less, mind you, but here it is) Well, *that* experiment was a wash. Kirsten Edwards ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue May 13 21:40:17 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:40:17 -0700 Subject: [LMB] science morality OT: In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030513143210.02dff0b0@mail.iqcisp.com> References: <05d001c31931$c9fc4170$050d4b43@LAPTOP> <20030512.170514.3720.7481@webmail02.lax.untd.com> <05d001c31931$c9fc4170$050d4b43@LAPTOP> <5.2.1.1.1.20030513143210.02dff0b0@mail.iqcisp.com> Message-ID: <20030513204017.GA18915@ofb.net> On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 02:39:56PM -0500, Louann Miller wrote: > >Hey, I make judgements. is a lying weasel and > >this is evil. Scientists actually have a very strong if simple morality, > >and I think they may be less forgiving than usual. > (1) on most matters there is no specific "scientist morality" any more than > (2) The exception is the scientific method, which cast in moral terms > states Thou Shalt Not Lie, Ever. This generally takes the form not of a Right. And I think this is potentially a "one foul and you're out" kind of thing. Although I don't know what happens to scientists who get caught: do they end up with teaching jobs at minor universities? I'm not sure I believe they're totally exiled from the field, without having read any followup. Of course scientists don't necessarily hold the same code throughout their life; lying to a spouse, or in department politics, probably happens a lot. OTOH, I am one of a subculture where extending Thou Shalt Not Lie to everyday life is considered not entirely reasonable or undesirable. > precept. Gray areas like "I could have checked my facts, but I forgot" or > "I was pretty sure it was true, so I said it as if I had checked it" are ...although in random discussion we're sometimes sloppy on these counts. :) But we know we're being sloppy, and go *eek* if we mess up. Actually, Louann, shouldn't there also be (3) When You're Wrong, Admit It, It's Not the End of the World ? My own "that's a sin" reactions come from (a) people blatantly lying, (b) pols asserting statements and suppressing research (that means you, Donna Shalala on medical marijuana) (c) people refusing to admit when they were wrong (double evil when people's lives are at stake -- various prosecutors go to hell on this count). There's also (4) Give References, or maybe that's just (2a) Don't Lie About Where That Came From. Personally I suspect that just putting random scientists in charge of the world wouldn't necessarily lead to any improvements, because as mentioned they can be pretty narrow-minded and petty, and don't apply the scientific attitude to everything. I do believe that putting the scientific attitude in charge of the world would be a massive improvement, and I'll believe that until tried and shown otherwise. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 13 21:49:28 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:49:28 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Animal thieves Message-ID: In a message dated 5/13/2003 2:52:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > OK, this one's good... > > Are you missing shoes? > > > http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/sundaystartimes/auckland/0,2106,2468123a6016,00. > html > > Ta, L. I hope to see this in one of the next books--one of Zap's progeny, maybe? I had a beagle once who stole plastic--sounds innocent, huh? But unfortunately the most common discarded plastic she could find were the cup-like tops of whiskey pints (attached to the pint bottles) discarded by the local drunks. Our yard would be full of them every Sunday morning. Mary --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Tue May 13 22:29:58 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:29:58 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity Message-ID: <009a01c31996$d1968fc0$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> >Marna writes that the definition of "pleasure" seems to be >instant gratification: > >"It would make more sense to say pleasure, happiness, satisfaction, >fulfillment, and joy." > >I must disagree, since pleasure is not the same thing as happiness >or joy (though satisfaction, yes). No doubt, but in fact Mr Kurtz is, minimally, lumping all of these together and calling it pleasure. Or, possibly, he doesn't know much about either sex or music. Or about the people he calls aesthetes. Not quite sure which. As I said, he's palming some cards here. BIG ones. Not least in presenting the people he calls 'social liberals' in such a single-issue way. I'm quite sure he sincerely tried, but actually, if this is Mr Kurtz's best try at sympathetically and evenhandedly representing both sides, he might want to hang it up. As Eeyore says, we can't all, and some of us don't. > (An exercise: What do you get when either is taken to >extremes/goes bad?) Hedonic: sensation-chasing, numbness, novelty-chasing, self-absorption, narcissism, callousness. The loss of the ability to find pleasure in anything and the abandonment of any interest in anything else because it's become an obsession which has to be fed. "Sin Model": I think we all know people who have grown to take such an enormous pleasure and pride in self-denial and most especially in preaching denial to others (and taking good care to spoil any possible pleasure that they might spot them having) that on the whole, even in the Christian model, their immortal souls would probably be better off overall if they moved into a brothel, lived exclusively on creme brulee and pink champagne, and started working on that Pride and Wrath thing. Sometimes they also indulge in a sort of spiritual bulimia, having thse binges of pleasure and making themselves sick, at least at heart. That's more embarassing, but probably not actually as bad. My friend Benet once argued that actually, we're neither an especially hedonistic nor an especially materialistic culture, but rather a status culture: we want all of these experiences and *things*, he argues, but don't really seem to enjoy them unless someone esle knows we have them. I continue to wonder whether he's right or wrong. >Or the notion that self-sacrifice is something other than a >masochistic folly for wanna-be doormats Well I don't call it self-sacrifice. Altruism, maybe, or just doing what's right. The distinction, I think, is that I don't find meaning in it, especially. I don't consider it especially glorious, and in fact I go to a great deal of trouble not to get into that mindset, because I know too many people who cannot seem to get it through their heads that martyr and saint are NOT jobs you apply for. I don't suffer any more than I have to because if I don't have to and do it's probably more about satisfying my need to be seen as self-sacrificing than it is about anyone else's actual needs. Possibly this is a personality trait thing; maybe some or many people don't have this problem. But as long as we're quoting music lyrics, there's a great one by June Tabor: "The Lord's cross might redeem us/ but our own just wastes our time..." Self-sacrifice is a basically sucky but necessary aspect of remaining human, and it comes around on the guitar with sufficient regularity that I don't really go out of my way to contemplate it. Which is to say, I guess, that I don't consider it a good in and of itself. I'll go without food to feed someone else, I'll eschew coffee and chocolate if I can't get the fair trade stuff, but I don't see any point in doing so to 'tame my flesh' or to become a better person. The Evil Twin makes a good point about his taste in songs to quote. Me, I collect songs about sex which I consider to *actually* glorify it, or at least to take it seriously and as fundamentally good, and either I'm a whole lot pickier than he is, or they are a great deal rarer than most people believe. (Like my oft-heard plaint -- if this culture really is obsessed with sex, you'd think a simple sex toy salesperson, sex educator and sometime sex writer would be rich, nevermind not even making a decent living, right?) If a person wants to argue against a point of view, surely they ought to take the best of it to argue against? Depeche Mode, anyone? "Sacred Holy To put it in words To write it down That is walking on hollowed ground But it's my duty I'm a missionary ... And I've made my decision This is religion There's no doubt I'm one of the devout Trying to sell the story Of love's eternal glory http://www.lyricsdomain.com/lyrics/467/ As for the good Mr Bennet, it's nothing to me, I truly don't mind what he does, but I do think that if he is going to discuss an ferverent anti-drug crusader who has managed to drop 8M USD gambling and never once use the word 'addiction', then Mr Kurtz is unlikely to ever figure out why some people consider Mr Bennet a wee tad hypocritical. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov Tue May 13 22:35:03 2003 From: lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov (Jagoda, Lynette K) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 14:35:03 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Link Fantastic.... Message-ID: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D2072538E@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> First watch this: Then read this: Make sure you read the article after watching the video. --------________--------________-------- From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz Tue May 13 22:40:59 2003 From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:40:59 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: Animal thieves Message-ID: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F53702A7C99B@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> Argh! My mother lives just around the corner from there! I'll tell her to make sure she doesn't leave her slippers by the back step (I wonder if the kitty is capable of managing size 8 gumboots? Mum had better bring those in as well). Kay (temp birthday Tixie), while we're on an antipodean note, Robin is a New Zealander, or at least he lives here. I know some people would *like* us to be a province of Australia, but we aren't quite one yet.... ;-). And Robin, happy birthday from me too! As for the drinkable beer, it wasn't Foster's, was it? Mmmm, I'd go a really good Coopers, that's one of the best things to come out of Aussie (maybe later, it's only 9:30am). --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Tue May 13 21:48:12 2003 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:48:12 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Song of Solomon (was: freedom and nudity) References: <20030512.170514.3720.7481@webmail02.lax.untd.com> <05d001c31931$c9fc4170$050d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <007001c3199a$5c1fed00$3201a8c0@mbaxis> On Tuesday, May 13, 2003 5:26 AM, Paula Lieberman wrote: > > Sure, there's a bit of self-conscious irony to the > > moral-religious language here. But basically, the > > spiritualization of casual sex is sincerely felt. > > But, but, but, didn't Augustine's Confessions do > something similar? And what of the Song of Solomon?! I have nothing to say about Augustine, but according to Orthodox Jewish tradition, The Song of Solomon, or what I feel is a more accurate translation, Solomon's _The Song of Songs_, is an allegory. We feel that those who take the words at face value are missing at least half the story. If you are interested in understanding _The Song of Songs_ as we do, I recommend looking here: http://www.mesorah.org/Books/shihp.html -- Michael --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Tue May 13 22:14:35 2003 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:14:35 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: William Bennet (was: freedom and nudity) References: <20030512.170514.3720.7481@webmail02.lax.untd.com> <05d001c31931$c9fc4170$050d4b43@LAPTOP> <006901c31941$5894a0d0$6c3a0144@Laptop> Message-ID: <007101c3199a$5c87d690$3201a8c0@mbaxis> Pam was one of a number of listies who took a shot at William Bennet; I responded to hers because I saw it first. Full disclosure: I have never met or spoken to William Bennet, nor have I ever read his books. I happen to be somewhat right leaning myself and I think this guy is getting a bum rap. On Tuesday, May 13, 2003 7:18 AM, Pam wrote: > Paula Asks: > > Who's William Bennett? > > Me: He's the guy who writes on virtues who recently was > exposed for having list millions of dollars gambling. He > never spoke against gambling, of course. Now he says he > won't gamble anymore. But it took a public (National TV) > exposure to show that his house was as glass as any > others. Was his house really as glass as you say? You admit he never spoke out against gambling, so he is not a hypocrite. As far as we know he has never committed a crime to support his gambling habits, he is not in debt, he has not deprived his children - maybe he sincerely believes that gambling, in and of itself, is not a vice? I happen to believe that. I also believe that drinking alcohol, in and of itself, is not a vice. Both can be taken to excess, and both can become vices for individuals. That does not mean it happened in this case. The news only reported the amounts he lost; no mention was made of the amounts he won, and he insisted he was almost even over the years. That sounds to me like a form of recreation that he enjoyed and that he paid for, much as other people pay for, for example, opera boxes, greens fees, etc. -- Michael --------________--------________-------- From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz Tue May 13 23:03:46 2003 From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:03:46 +1200 Subject: [LMB] OT: Link Fantastic.... Message-ID: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F53702A7C99C@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> Yeah, that is just the coolest ad. It reminds me of the 70s/80s UK children's show, Vision On. It had a lot of content for deaf children and was thus very visual. The end piece of the show was with a mad boffin-type presenter who always had some incredibly complex contraption that ran and did things much like the Honda ad - components were Meccano pieces, string, gears, wheels and general random objects. That was the highlight of the week for me. I even remember wondering at the age of 11 or so how the guy managed to build all that in the space of the week. http://www.its-prof-again.co.uk/vision_on.htm - alas, no pics of the inventions Given the fact the Honda ad was made in the UK, and the age I am now, I wouldn't be surprised if the concept hadn't come about from someone having watched Vision On at a formative age. Having done a google search, I've found the mad inventor is called Wilf Lunn - he's got a great baby feeding invention - http://www.wilflunn.com/inventions.htm > -----Original Message----- > From: Jagoda, Lynette K [mailto:lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov] > Sent: Wednesday, 14 May 2003 9:35 a.m. > To: Lois-Bujold List (E-mail) > Subject: [LMB] OT: Link Fantastic.... > > > First watch this: > > > --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Tue May 13 23:11:10 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: Song of Solomon (was: freedom and nudity) In-Reply-To: <007001c3199a$5c1fed00$3201a8c0@mbaxis> Message-ID: <20030513151028.E72942-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Tue, 13 May 2003, Michael Bauminger wrote: > I have nothing to say about Augustine, but according to Orthodox > Jewish tradition, The Song of Solomon, or what I feel is a more > accurate translation, Solomon's _The Song of Songs_, is an > allegory. We feel that those who take the words at face value are > missing at least half the story. If you are interested in > understanding _The Song of Songs_ as we do, I recommend looking > here: http://www.mesorah.org/Books/shihp.html I'm not disputing that...but it is *great* love poetry regardless. And it surely is not anti-sex or anti-pleasure. ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From pam at gotcher.us Tue May 13 23:26:22 2003 From: pam at gotcher.us (Pam) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:26:22 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: William Bennet (was: freedom and nudity) References: <20030512.170514.3720.7481@webmail02.lax.untd.com> <05d001c31931$c9fc4170$050d4b43@LAPTOP> <006901c31941$5894a0d0$6c3a0144@Laptop> <007101c3199a$5c87d690$3201a8c0@mbaxis> Message-ID: <00ae01c3199e$aee7cd60$6c3a0144@Laptop> My theory is that if you're going judge other's morals, 1) you'd better be really clean yourself and 2) you shouldn't be surprised if others judge yours. Gambling, unfortunately, is one of those things that comes under the "morality" issues for many people. If he'd disclosed it up front, that would be one thing. But he didn't, and from what I understand, he actually tried to hide it (at least some of the news accounts I saw said that). You're entitled to your opinion, Michael, of course. But I don't think he got a raw deal at all. Pam ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Bauminger To: Bujold Mailing List Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: William Bennet (was: freedom and nudity) Pam was one of a number of listies who took a shot at William Bennet; I responded to hers because I saw it first. Full disclosure: I have never met or spoken to William Bennet, nor have I ever read his books. I happen to be somewhat right leaning myself and I think this guy is getting a bum rap. --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Tue May 13 23:36:10 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 18:36:10 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Song of Solomon (was: freedom and nudity) Message-ID: <001001c319a0$0f2ee860$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Michael Bauminger >I have nothing to say about Augustine, but according to Orthodox >Jewish tradition, The Song of Solomon, or what I feel is a more >accurate translation, Solomon's _The Song of Songs_, is an >allegory. We feel that those who take the words at face value are >missing at least half the story. I'm not sure there exists a person who has read the Song of Songs who takes the words entirely at face value. The question of interest, I think, is this: of all of the possible allegorical forms available, why is *openly erotic poetry and prose* far and away the most popular? Marna --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Tue May 13 23:48:15 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <009a01c31996$d1968fc0$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Message-ID: <20030513151633.R72942-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Tue, 13 May 2003, Marna Nightingale wrote: > My friend Benet once argued that actually, we're neither an > especially hedonistic nor an especially materialistic culture, > but rather a status culture: we want all of these experiences > and *things*, he argues, but don't really seem to enjoy them > unless someone esle knows we have them. I continue to wonder > whether he's right or wrong. I don't know whether I think it's the culture or the species. It has been said on some of the Slytherin lists that people who sort Slytherin on the internet sorting tests are usually people that USED to be idealists, before they realized that most people want there to be inequalities in the world. I continue to wonder whether that's true or not. It describes a lot of us, but I'm not sure if it describes me. It all comes down to how accurately I remember my childhood. :) But I don't think people want to live in a society without status differences. There is this huge part of me that goes "Yuck!" at the very thought. I'd rather not have people starving in the streets (all issues of compassion, decency and humanity aside, it's really unpleasant to look at and smell), but there's a big part of my brain that thinks, whether or not it's logical, that life would be really boring without fancy people to envy and gossip about, and that really wants to be one of them. (People who don't think like this don't have nicknames like 'Malfoy'.) Anyhow, nearly every revolutionary society that is based in the idea of getting rid of the fat cats soon develops its own set of fat cats, who are usually meaner and much less pretty to look at than the ones they replaced. I mean, nobody is going to write romance novels about Stalin. > I don't suffer any more than I have to because if I don't have to and do > it's probably more about satisfying my need to be seen as self-sacrificing > than it is about anyone else's actual needs. I don't suffer any more than I have to because I don't like it. And there has to be a Very Good Reason for me to do something I don't want to do. > The Evil Twin makes a good point about his taste in songs to quote. Me, I > collect songs about sex which I consider to *actually* glorify it, or at > least to take it seriously and as fundamentally good, and either I'm a whole > lot pickier than he is, or they are a great deal rarer than most people > believe. Same here. > (Like my oft-heard plaint -- if this culture really is obsessed > with sex, you'd think a simple sex toy salesperson, sex > educator and sometime sex writer would be rich, nevermind not > even making a decent living, right?) I agree. > As for the good Mr Bennet, it's nothing to me, I truly don't > mind what he does, but I do think that if he is going to > discuss an ferverent anti-drug crusader who has managed to drop > 8M USD gambling and never once use the word 'addiction', then > Mr Kurtz is unlikely to ever figure out why some people > consider Mr Bennet a wee tad hypocritical. Well, I personally don't like to use the word 'addiction' for anything that isn't a chemical known to produce a physiological response. Mostly because I've run into too many therapists who are quick to label any behavior of which they don't approve 'addictive'. There are plenty of people out there who are not religious who are just as annoyingly condemnatory in the name of 'mental health' as others are in the name of religion. I have been told that I am "addicted" to food, because I'm overweight, by a therapist who had no real idea of my eating habits, and I have been told that I was "addicted" to sex because I confessed to being kinky and, at the time, non-monogamous. I went into the arms of the mental health community at the age of 15 sincerely believing that they wanted to help me get better but I discovered that for many of them better didn't mean not depressed, not manic, not agitated, and able to pay attention as long as I wanted to and break it off when I needed to, but rather meant some other kind of standard that had to do with their idea of what a "healthy relationship" ought to look like. If a person has a problem with obsessive behavior and isn't able to stop doing something when they want to, I expect that is a real mental problem, but I wouldn't call it addiction. I have *real* problems with hyperfocusing, so I can relate, and I very pointedly don't gamble because I hate losing at anything. But that's not the same thing, you know, as being addicted to nicotine, or heroin. ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Tue May 13 23:51:24 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: Song of Solomon (was: freedom and nudity) In-Reply-To: <001001c319a0$0f2ee860$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Message-ID: <20030513155041.C72942-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Tue, 13 May 2003, Marna Nightingale wrote: > I'm not sure there exists a person who has read the Song of > Songs who takes the words entirely at face value. The question > of interest, I think, is this: of all of the possible > allegorical forms available, why is *openly erotic poetry and > prose* far and away the most popular? I expect it's because sex really does feel holy and sacred, when it's good, and no one's being exploited. ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Tue May 13 23:57:38 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 18:57:38 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: William Bennet (was: freedom and nudity) Message-ID: <002201c319a3$0dbf2460$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> I'm meaner than any of you. It rarely if ever occurs to me to feel apologetic about being pleased when one of my political opponents takes him or herself out of the game. OK, if it's a particularly unfair bit of fate, I might wince sympathetically. I don't expect my political opponents to sympathise when someone I support messes up, either. I don't feel particularly badly about this or anything, but don't feel the need to say anything nasty about him either. If he didn't think this was going to come and bite him in the credibility one day, he hasn't got the political sense that G*d gave a biscuit and ought to have stayed out of trying to make public policy, or gotten himself a stalking horse with no politically imprudent personal habits, what else is there to say? I bear the man no actual ill-will; my wishes in regard to him is that he be well and happy and somewhere else. Somewhere where he is not influencing public policy. Now, I avoid the US media, for all I know there have been lineups to gloat over his downfall in technicolour gory detail. Ick. But hardly uncommon and a seeming feature of both (all?) sides. But the underlying impulse -- which seems to be to demonize the unfortunate in question enough to "justify" enjoying his or her downfall, seems to me weird. Isn't 'well darn, that's kind of convenient' enough anymore? I miss the days when politics actually involved open partisanship... Marna. --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Wed May 14 00:12:33 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Re: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <05d001c31931$c9fc4170$050d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <20030513160517.H72942-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Tue, 13 May 2003, Paula Lieberman wrote: > From: "Kirsten Edwards" > > > But for social liberals, desire itself has been spiritualized. We > > don't hear much talk about the spiritualization of desire from > > Hmmm, one of the novels by British author Mary Gentle is _The Architecture > of Desire_. It's really not about the spiritualization of desire. I've read it several times. > > Libertarians are more interested in talking about their right > > to pleasure, than about what pleasure actually means to them. > > But everywhere in our society, you can see the signs that > > pleasure itself has taken on an almost religious aura. I think this confuses libertarians with libertines. I'm a bit of both. Libertarianism is a political philosophy. Libertinage is a way of thinking. Even though I'm currently not having sex with anyone, I'm still a libertine, because I don't regret what I've done (except for those things that I think I should have been able to see at the time were stupid), and I don't want to take the choices I had away from other people. > The above, though, isn't "casual sex." Casual sex is e.g. > "Barnacle Bill the Sailor" or "This is number, and the fun has > just begun...." Some people see all sex that isn't intended to seal a lifelong religious commitment as 'casual'. That's part of the problem, defining terms. > > REM made the analogy explicit in "Losing My Religion." > > I'm not familiar with it by name, perhaps by music or words I would be.... That's not a song about casual sex, it's a song about obsessive love. About being so nutso over somebody that you feel you've got to go wherever they do, even if they're taking you places you know you shouldn't go. Been there, done that, burnt all the shirts. > As someone who has never been married, the perception of > something being restricted to married couples, is not something > I find endearing. Yes, but it's a part of traditional Christian morality that only heterosexually married people should ever have sex. Take heart in the fact that they're excluding LOTS of people... > But, but, but, there have been lots of cultures historically > which used music, sex, and/or drugs to achieve spiritual > states! The whole of the Orpheus cult involved music, sex as > fertility rite was rife, and as for drugs -- look at the > ritualized use of alcohol in Judaism and Roman Catholicism! > And the reasons for all the strictness involved for wine to be > kosher wine, included that the process of making wine in the > Middle East in ancient times, tended to involve dedicating the > wine being produced, as it was being produced, to one's > particularly deity or deities -- and thus wine made by > non-Jews, was almost automatically blasphemous for Jews to > drink, because drinking it was an act of worship to the deity > of the wine-maker! The Oracle at Delphi was apparently Under > the Influence of narcotic gas, cultures in what is today the US > southwest used e.g. peyote, etc. Psst! Some people don't consider these traditional religions to be 'valid religions'. > > But to traditionalists, the recalcitrant sinfulness of sex is > > a reminder that pleasure takes its meaning and justification > > from subordination to something higher. Pleasure put in the > > service of God's good works brings a deeper and more lasting > > satisfaction than pleasure for itself. Pleasure for its own > > sake is slavery. Pleasure in the service of a moral community > > is freedom. > > Someone has a VERY peculiar definition of "freedom" there! All those women > who recoiled at the thought of being Lady Vorkosigan on Barrayar, would NOT > have agreed with that definition! I agree. I'd like to see someone explain this to Kareen Koudelka, wouldn't you? > And if you didn't fit or transgressed.... "honor killings" > still occur, even in the USA. I wouldn't call that :"enlarged > your life." Yup. ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Wed May 14 00:21:50 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 11:21:50 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <20030513151633.R72942-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: > But I don't think people want to live in a society without status > differences. There is this huge part of me that goes "Yuck!" at > the very thought. I'd rather not have people starving in the > streets (all issues of compassion, decency and humanity aside, > it's really unpleasant to look at and smell), but there's a big > part of my brain that thinks, whether or not it's logical, that > life would be really boring without fancy people to envy and > gossip about, and that really wants to be one of them. I tend to think that people who want everyone to be equal forget the fact that we are all intrinsically different. If I am a faster or better worker I wish to be paid more than the slow person next to me. If I am doing a significantly harder job, such as brain surgery, I want to be paid more than a street cleaner because I have to sacrifice years of my life to learn how to do this job. (Note I am not saying here that street cleaning is not an important task, nor that it does not take skills and abilities that take time to learn and develop. Before an upset streetcleaner calls Pizza on the thread) The only time a society is going to be completly without status, is if every person has to live self sufficiently of their own work, with no trade, and no assistance from anyone else. As soon as people have to rely on other individuals to survive people will gain and lose status based on what they contribute. I do not know what the social welfare is like in other countries, but as an ex-experianced welfare person in NZ, I find it amazing that people complain here about social differences. In NZ we have a welfare system that pays people a small amount to live on and will also subsidise living and health costs. While I was living on this amount, I had enough to dress frugally but well, eat properly, keep a roof over my head and enough money to keep entertained. After two years on the dole (pretty much by choice as I had not chosen a career) I went out and got a low paying, no skill required job, and started the task of improving things. My point here is that after two years of "poverty" I had no trouble pulling myself up out of it and the dole gave me enough money to allow me to do this. My belief is that most people who are on the dole perpetually want to be there or have not worked hard enough to get off it. These people have a low status in society and have chosen it, either consiously or sub-consiously. The harder you work, the chances you take and the way you interact with people define how well you will do in this country, and people still fail to take responsibility for their own lives and blame either the rich or the government for their status. Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Wed May 14 00:31:14 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom - back on topic In-Reply-To: <200305132158.h4DLwDr5013788@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Okay, in honor of Lois' new PoS, anyone care to take a try at placing the Chalioniverse kingdoms on the spectrum of least free to most free (and given we are dealing with differing cultures state why they gave the placements they did?) I'd be interested to see how the Quadrene/Quintarian theology is exemplified by the spectrum in the eyes of other readers. at }->- :} Tinne ;} Laughter Heals :D -<-{ at --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Wed May 14 01:16:46 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:16:46 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity Message-ID: <002701c319ae$1bb29c40$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Azalais Malfoy >But I don't think people want to live in a society without status >differences. True enough. What he and I were talking about at the time, though, was the situation where seeking status becomes a primary focus and all encompassing substitute for other things. Looping back a bit, as with most other pleasures, at some point the pleasure in having it becomes almost nil, and the fear of losing status takes the place of both the intrinsic pleasure of the experience or object and the intrinsic pleasure of the status. I think we were talking more about the fact that for supposed materialists we have very little respect for our stuff, and for supposed hedonists we spend a lot of time doing stuff we don't like and very little time demanding what we do like, rather than explicitly exploring the status thing per se. It's just sort of stuck with me. >Well, I personally don't like to use the word 'addiction' for >anything that isn't a chemical known to produce a physiological >response. ... >If a person has a problem with obsessive behavior and isn't able >to stop doing something when they want to, I expect that is a >real mental problem, but I wouldn't call it addiction. Good points. Fair enough. Compulsion? M. --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed May 14 01:21:48 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:21:48 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Song of Solomon (was: freedom and nudity) In-Reply-To: <001001c319a0$0f2ee860$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> References: <001001c319a0$0f2ee860$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Message-ID: <20030514002148.GA30398@ofb.net> On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 06:36:10PM -0400, Marna Nightingale wrote: > I'm not sure there exists a person who has read the Song of Songs who takes > the words entirely at face value. The question of interest, I think, is What, women don't like having their hair compared to a flock of goats? Rambunctious and smelly? -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Wed May 14 01:27:32 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:27:32 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Song of Solomon (was: freedom and nudity) Message-ID: <000c01c319af$9da65240$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Damien Sullivan >What, women don't like having their hair compared to a flock of goats? >Rambunctious and smelly? 1) You gotta problem with rambunctious? 2) You, sir, ought to bathe your goats oftener. :-) Marna. --------________--------________-------- From jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu Wed May 14 01:40:00 2003 From: jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu (Jason Bontrager) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:40:00 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Nexus life extension In-Reply-To: <3EC04FE7.6040502@gci.net> References: <200305121101.h4CB1Zr5006670@lists.herald.co.uk> <3EC04FE7.6040502@gci.net> Message-ID: <3EC19060.4080708@mail.utexas.edu> Peter Newman wrote: > > > It might also be that the Betans know that the Jacksonians have a > comparative advantage in the field and that their efforts would not be > economically competitive. To the extent Beta Colony is a capitalist > society it's technological products _must_ make money. > Since the Duronas have all that Jacksonian knowledge they'll may > be able to make it work where the Betans could not. Another > consideration is that the Duronas may be able to take advantage > of Mark's assistance and Mark is more interested in shutting down > the clone transfers than in making money. Therefore he may be > willing to do it even if a rational Betan capitalist would see > a better use for his money. I'd have to differ with you on this. Even if the Holers make more per client, they have a very short client list. A more ethical, and less expensive, treatment would sell like hotcakes. And not only to people who find the clone-transplant thing unacceptable. Likewise even if the procedure is more expensive (unlikely as the clone-transfer has to take into account the costs of feeding and raising the clone, and that ain't cheap) you'd still get plenty of ethical rich people (not a contradiction in terms ya know!) who want to live longer but aren't willing to go the clone-route. Basically I don't see the Betans *not* developing this technology if it's possible, unless they have some kind of Samothracian/Leon Kassian prejudice against life-extension in general. Jason B. --------________--------________-------- From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz Wed May 14 01:37:49 2003 From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:37:49 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity Message-ID: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F53702A7C99D@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> Aha! Thank you malfoy and Mandos for stating your views on status etc so clearly. I've been clobbering my head for months trying to figure out just what it is that makes my political beliefs (anarchist) and those of right-libertarians different (other than what appears to be complete selfishness on their part, from my perspective). I've realised that "libertarians" are just as idealistic as I am (let's not conflate that with naove), in some ways, and we even share some of the same beliefs - for example, the need to take individual responsibility. Malfoy, you say that people don't really want to live in a world without status differences. It seems to me that's true as well, although I do wonder how much of that would remain if we didn't have so much social brainwashing. However, it seems to be an intrinsic thing to admire people who are stronger, cleverer, more dexterous, more charming, more charismatic and more beautiful than ourselves. I really get off on being the built-in applause section for my creative and brilliant friends. However, those are *personal* qualities. I just can't relate to admiring people because of their monetary wealth and what things they possess. It seems like fetishistic behaviour to me - admiring the *symbols* of someone's gifts. I think conflating symbols with reality comprises half the problems of the world - rigid religious practices substituting for true spirituality and faith, the need to consume goods to fetishistically aquire status, the need for money to represent the transfer of skills and products. We all know that people can aquire money without any skill whatsoever, or that financial rewards can be completely out of proportion to the actual effort expended (which seems more true as one gets to the top of the monetary ladder) - which is probably why I don't respect many of those who seem to have the highest status in our society at present. Getting rid of the fat cats does generally end up with other fat cats. This is because most of the "revolutions" that occurred made no attempt to rid the economy of the fetishism of money and relied on an "elite" of "enlightened" people to be the leaders of whatever movement it was. And instead of the general population having true power, they vested it into the elite who then made up all the rules. As soon as you get an elite like that making the rules, bingo, fat cats just round the corner. People need to realise that admiration and acknowledgment of someone else's gifts does not necessarily mean giving up one's own power. Without giving up one's own power, one doesn't have to get sucked into the jealousy and fear that people suffer from in our (global) society. [One problem with "haves" and "have nots" is the threat that each represents to the other, and the continual crap needed to try and gain balance (crime vs laws, ghettos vs gated communities etc etc)].One doesn't then need to rely on fetishes to give us status, because one has sufficient self-esteem to gain status in whatever way works by our own rules, not someone else's. I can fully imagine a world which doesn't rely on monetary and authoritarian rules to connote status, but rather the personal qualities of skill, beauty, creativity etc that I mentioned above. Ok, we all like looking up to some people, and we all like thinking of ourselves as superior in one way or another. I just personally would rather feel superior due to my intrinsic qualities than to any extrinsic qualities such as what car I own (being admired for something that can change due to outside circs seems ridiculous - if I'm a businessman and the stockmarket suddenly crashes, am I suddenly a worse person?). I've known forever that I don't have a fetishistic bone in my body (mmm, Freud, voyeurism, admiring my friends, o well), so maybe that's why my philosophy seems better to me. But I can't see things changing the way I'd like in my lifetime - and I can see the appeal of going to the other extreme and saying "Everyone for themselves since that's the way it is (completely f*cked up)". Appealing, but not yet. I had a completely f*cked childhood, and I associate my million-times better adulthood with all those idealistic principles I got from my friends. I need to get a bit more of my idealism knocked out of me! (I'm nearly 35, maybe I'll have a nice mid-life crisis like a lot of hippies) Thanks again for the food for thought. I'll be ruminating on this for a while (but hopefully not posting any more essays like this) Tracy > -----Original Message----- > From: Azalais Malfoy [mailto:tiamat at tsoft.com] [snipitty] > It has been said on some of the Slytherin lists that people > who sort Slytherin on the internet sorting tests are usually > people that USED to be idealists, before they realized that > most people want there to be inequalities in the world. > [snip] > > But I don't think people want to live in a society without > status differences. There is this huge part of me that goes > "Yuck!" at the very thought. I'd rather not have people > starving in the streets (all issues of compassion, decency > and humanity aside, it's really unpleasant to look at and > smell), but there's a big part of my brain that thinks, > whether or not it's logical, that life would be really boring > without fancy people to envy and gossip about, and that > really wants to be one of them. [snip] > Anyhow, nearly every revolutionary society that is based in > the idea of getting rid of the fat cats soon develops its own > set of fat cats, who are usually meaner and much less pretty > to look at than the ones they replaced. I mean, nobody is > going to write romance novels about Stalin. [snip] --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Wed May 14 02:05:58 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 18:05:58 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:37:49 +1200 From: "Tracy MacShane": >Aha! Thank you malfoy and Mandos for stating your views on status etc so clearly. I've been clobbering my head for months trying to figure out just what it is that makes my political beliefs (anarchist) and those of right-libertarians different (other than what appears to be complete selfishness on their part, from my perspective). I've realised that "libertarians" are just as idealistic as I am (let's not conflate that with naove), in some ways, and we even share some of the same beliefs - for example, the need to take individual responsibility.< >Thanks again for the food for thought. I'll be ruminating on this for a >while (but hopefully not posting any more essays like this)< Hi, Tracy! Well, I hope you DO! I may not be in the least anarchistic or share the same political views, but you wrote eloquently and I enjoyed your essay! Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Wed May 14 02:12:34 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 18:12:34 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Buffy Bye-Bye OT: Message-ID: Hi, Jim and all! I heard on NPR this afternoon a fascinating segment on Buffy research. I expected to hear your name, Jim , because it was about college professors who integrate Buffy into their lectures, get together to discuss philosophy, but end up talking Buffy-chat, only to realize that they are philosophizing, after all! There is apparently something like an International Buffy Congress to meet and present papers on Buffy topics. The interviewer spoke with one professor who said that when the last episode runs (tonight, was it?), the canon will be complete, and THEN the researchers can really go after it indepth. Sorry your favorite show is about to end. I know how bad that s*cks! I was so mad when TNG and Voyager went off the air. 7 years is just NOT enough! I hope they do justice to the finale for you! Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From countryboy66 at mchsi.com Wed May 14 02:42:12 2003 From: countryboy66 at mchsi.com (Countryboy) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 20:42:12 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Buffy Bye-Bye Way OT: References: Message-ID: <009901c319ba$0aa43150$d18dd70c@MainComputer> lorraine fletez-brant spoke: > Sorry your favorite show is about to end. I know how bad that s*cks! I was > so mad when TNG and Voyager went off the air. 7 years is just NOT enough! I > hope they do justice to the finale for you! > This is way off topic and if someone wants to exile me I will understand. I live in the MW with no one to talk to about it. I've lost way to many shows. I'm going to go into withdrawal. Countryboy(Allen) - trying to figure out what he is going to watch now. --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Wed May 14 02:49:20 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:49:20 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <009a01c31996$d1968fc0$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Message-ID: > Sometimes they also indulge in a sort of spiritual bulimia, having thse > binges of pleasure and making themselves sick, at least at heart. That's > more embarassing, but probably not actually as bad. I just thought I would mention that I really love the phrase "spiritual bulimia". Wonderful. Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu Wed May 14 03:01:26 2003 From: jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu (Jason Bontrager) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 21:01:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] All Knowledge is found on this List OT: In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030513190625.03a4d0f8@pop.luna.co.uk> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030513190625.03a4d0f8@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EC1A376.30405@mail.utexas.edu> James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: > All the slide show software I have makes you push > PgUp or PgDn or cursor arrow keys. Anyone know > any decent freeware which uses mouse buttons? > (And maybe expands/contracts any size of image > so that it fills the screen on one axis.) > > James - who has a lot of pictures from the Trans- > Siberian Express Trip I don't know of any freeware that does what you want. PowerPoint allows mouse control, but it may cost. Jason B. --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Wed May 14 02:53:52 2003 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 21:53:52 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Jewish World Review Message-ID: <001c01c319bc$bcadf910$3201a8c0@mbaxis> The editor of a free online news and opinion journal that I read has asked that his readers publicize his publication - and its daily email newsletter - in an effort to get more readers. Here is what he has to say about his magazine: JWR is a free magazine published five days a week on the World Wide Web of interest to people of faith and those interested in learning more about contemporary Judaism from Jews who take their religion seriously. The publication has a decided right-wing, conservative slant and may not be for everyone. A large part of its content has to do with politics: US politics, Middle East politics, and to a lesser extent World politics. If you happen to be interested, you can check it out at http://www.jewishworldreview.com or sign up for the newsletter at http://www.jewishworldreview.com/subscribejwr-new.php3 -- Michael --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Wed May 14 03:01:53 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:01:53 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Buffy Bye-Bye Way OT: Message-ID: <001a01c319bc$cab03f00$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Countryboy >This is way off topic and if someone wants to exile me I will understand. I >live in the MW with no one to talk to about it. I don't own or want a tv, and *I* don't find this list's level of tvtalk (there generally is some) onerous, and as far as I can tell this list is Buffyland, so I'd say you're good. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Wed May 14 03:06:28 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:06:28 +1200 Subject: [LMB] All Knowledge is found on this List OT: In-Reply-To: <3EC1A376.30405@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: > All the slide show software I have makes you push > PgUp or PgDn or cursor arrow keys. Anyone know > any decent freeware which uses mouse buttons? > (And maybe expands/contracts any size of image > so that it fills the screen on one axis.) ACDSee should do what you want although it is not freeware but it is pretty cheap. Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed May 14 03:19:07 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:19:07 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Nexus life extension In-Reply-To: <3EC19060.4080708@mail.utexas.edu> References: <200305121101.h4CB1Zr5006670@lists.herald.co.uk> <3EC04FE7.6040502@gci.net> <3EC19060.4080708@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <20030514021907.GA24501@ofb.net> On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 07:40:00PM -0500, Jason Bontrager wrote: > Peter Newman wrote: > >It might also be that the Betans know that the Jacksonians have a > >comparative advantage in the field and that their efforts would not be > >economically competitive. To the extent Beta Colony is a capitalist > Basically I don't see the Betans *not* developing this technology if > it's possible, unless they have some kind of Samothracian/Leon Kassian > prejudice against life-extension in general. I think Peter was suggesting the Jacksonians have a comparative advantage in human medical research, unconstrained by ethics. E.g. they can do closer to controlled experiments: raise batches of clones similarly, and when they get old start trying out different treatments. For all we know Bharaputra or someone else has a geriatric clone farm right now. Or, from a more twisted author, maybe Ryoval had such a farm and Mark set back anti-aging research by a hundred years. :) Durona might have access to knowledge gained through such means, which plus Durona genius could be their advantage over Beta. I doubt Mark's backing by itself makes much difference, unless 800 years of no progress have discredited anti-aging research so it doesn't get reputable support. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed May 14 03:20:41 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:20:41 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Song of Solomon (was: freedom and nudity) In-Reply-To: <000c01c319af$9da65240$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> References: <000c01c319af$9da65240$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Message-ID: <20030514022041.GB24501@ofb.net> On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 08:27:32PM -0400, Marna Nightingale wrote: > >What, women don't like having their hair compared to a flock of goats? > >Rambunctious and smelly? > > 1) You gotta problem with rambunctious? Rambunctious women, no. I'm just not sure calling a woman's hair rambunctious is a compliment... -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed May 14 03:23:55 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:23:55 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Buffy Bye-Bye OT: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030514022355.GC24501@ofb.net> On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 06:12:34PM -0700, lorraine fletez-brant wrote: > papers on Buffy topics. The interviewer spoke with one professor who said > that when the last episode runs (tonight, was it?), the canon will be Next week. > complete, and THEN the researchers can really go after it indepth. Hah. There's already a "The Philosophy of Buffy" book out there. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Wed May 14 03:35:42 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:35:42 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Song of Solomon (was: freedom and nudity) References: <001001c319a0$0f2ee860$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> <20030514002148.GA30398@ofb.net> Message-ID: <072d01c319c1$84ee0600$050d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Sullivan" > On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 06:36:10PM -0400, Marna Nightingale wrote: > ]> > What, women don't like having their hair compared to a flock of goats? > Rambunctious and smelly? > Fiber from cashmere goats is very soft and silky, and not stinky generally. Billy goats are smelly and such, but most goats aren't unneutered males. --------________--------________-------- From oppen at mycns.net Wed May 14 04:02:26 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:02:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: An aside on "selfishness" Message-ID: <021701c319c5$4c042e60$6e4a0043@hppav> My learned colleague Tracy made some interesting points, but I'd like to address her statement that we libertarians are all about "selfishness." Firstly, a question that has occurred to me repeatedly: _Why_ is it "selfish" of me to want to keep something I have when someone else asks for it---but _not,_ apparently, selfish for this other person to demand something of mine on no basis other than that he or she wants it? Is it not, instead, far _more_ selfish of this other person to demand something of me to which he or she has no claim? Secondly, while I, LMB-list Token Libertarian that I am, will match my personal generosities---in terms of my time, my money, sharing my goods, and the very blood in my veins---with anybody on this list, I _do_ reserve the right to say "No" and have that "No" be the end of the discussion. I get...quite irritable...on this point, particularly when dealing with people who are very loud that "No means No!" This is one of my beefs with some feminists, BTW. From conversations with them, they're quite into the right to say "No!"---until I say "No!" to something _they_ want. Then I get all the same sorts of emotional blackmail and pressure they complain about, applied to me. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Wed May 14 04:30:55 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:30:55 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Redaction, myth, history, was Song of Solomon (was: freedom and nudity) References: <20030513151028.E72942-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <072e01c319c9$3afbd790$050d4b43@LAPTOP> I expect the atht -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Azalais Malfoy" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 6:11 PM Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Song of Solomon (was: freedom and nudity) > On Tue, 13 May 2003, Michael Bauminger wrote: > > > I have nothing to say about Augustine, but according to Orthodox > > Jewish tradition, The Song of Solomon, or what I feel is a more > > accurate translation, Solomon's _The Song of Songs_, is an > > allegory. We feel that those who take the words at face value are > > missing at least half the story. If you are interested in > > understanding _The Song of Songs_ as we do, I recommend looking > > here: http://www.mesorah.org/Books/shihp.html > > I'm not disputing that...but it is *great* love poetry > regardless. And it surely is not anti-sex or anti-pleasure. My own feeling is that the bit about "allegory" is that that view is mostly apologia or some such. Twenty centuries or more ago there was a redaction activity which produced the Jewish scriptures that exist today (plus some other material which perhaps which got dropped over time -- e.g., there was material found in the Genizah in Cairo, into which one of the Jewish communities of Cairos had dumped written material over the course of literally centuries, which isn't part of Jewish scriptures these days, but MAY have been sometime in the past a thousand or so years ago....) . Views of the universe back during those redaction times, tend to be rather different than views these days. The fatest transporation available then was ship, and after some amount of discussion eventually there was an agreement that travel on ship on Saturday was allowable if the ship was on the seas before Friday night. Electricity was not so far as is known today, used for power -- there MAY have been electroplating technology around. Internal combustion engines did not exist. Etc. Things we take for granted didn't exist, concepts we take for granted weren't concepts in use, every day ordinary life, involved thought processes, activities, technology, assumptions, knowledge... that are alien to most contemporary people. Metal was -expensive- and metal working expensive and resource intensive. Iron working required a LOT of wood for fuel. Ships required lots of wood to manufacture, and wood to keep operating. USS Constitution has its own FOREST, donated by a lumber company, to keep it in repair and floating. The ordinary person was familiar with animals -- donkeys, cattle, sheep, goats --, field life, wine production, field tilling, threshing, milling, olive oil pressing, lice, water which had to be -carried-, oil lamps, life in which religion played a maj, or deterministic role.... books were expensive, paper was extremely expensive, printing presses didn't exist, scribing documents was all by hand and very laboriious -- ink had to be made, the medium to write on had to be prepared, writing instruments weren't the steel-tipped inexpensive pens -- durable reusables or cheap throwaways -- that we have today. They didn't have typewriters, computers, telephones, telegraphs, letters sent had no assurance of getting through, banking as we know it didn't exist, corporations with stock ownership didn't exist, accurate weather prediction didn't exist, there was no system warning of flooding from up river or floor conditions, or of imminent drought, water diversion was via purely mechanical distribution methods -- no electric pumps... power was animal or human muscles or wind or waterwheel. Refrigeration via compressor cooling technology didn't exist, stuff spoiled quickly and preservatives were drying, cooking, salting, etc. There's a lot of stuff in Jewish scriptures which had to have been archaic when redacted -- it was redacted by people who seemed to have been very much settled types, but much of the material is about people who lived in tents travelling with flocks..... _Hagar the Egyptian_ and _Sarah the Priestess_ have a number of interesting perspectives on this situation. Jumping over to Lois' work, the level of technology which Barrayar was never devolved to full pre-industrial society level. Life there might have been -closer- to Jewish Scriptures mindscape, than contemporary life, with so much devolved to hardscrabble and low tech living, and so much effort necessary simple for subsistence living. Getting back to allegory versus not, we don't really know the conditions in effect of society and technology and lifestyles when the Jewish scriptures were redacted. We know some of the technologies that weren't around ,but we don't really know -when- the redaction occurred, or why, and why what was included, was included, and how much may have been historical, how much myth, and how much was editor's ideology and "improvement" and whatever. We also don't know what storytelling conventions were in effect, e.g., modern stuff has a number of conventions involved in it, so why not ancient stuff? One wonders how accurate the records Barrayar had would be, for that matter.... Prince Serg in Barrayar history, versus actual Prince Serg, were NOT the same fellow and actions! --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Wed May 14 04:33:06 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:33:06 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: To err is human, to digress inevitable References: <20030513.133407.12372.7536@webmail07.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <073001c319c9$89819e40$050d4b43@LAPTOP> It being that I am rather behind in reading email and jump about reading it [I did see some of the replies about "who is William Bennett, however], when someone's referred to in a post but not identified in that post as to who the person is or what they're [in]famous for.... also, I do not have one of the world's better memories -- walking from Room A into Room B, I often forget why I was going into Room A, but the time I get there. Or, I go looking for my car keys -- when they're already in my hand! Or, responding to something in E-mail, I forget the original point I was trying to respond to, having gotten distracted away by something I was referring to. Topic drift, is utterly natural for me, and "sticking to the topic" is unnatural. Corollaries, YES!! -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirsten Edwards" > Paula Asks: Who's William Bennett? > > And Pam, Joy & Peter replied (so far), which is the > reason I went to all the trouble to edit the fool thing > I also took the time to *identify* the fellow in the > first place with what I hope was a fairly neutral but > descriptive term [popular moralist. I thought about > "populist moralizer" but decided the connotations were > too expressive :-)] > > FWIW that's what the rest of the essay was about: > http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz.asp > (about wh. I could care less, mind you, but here it is) > > Well, *that* experiment was a wash. > > Kirsten Edwards > --------________--------________-------- From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz Wed May 14 04:53:08 2003 From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 15:53:08 +1200 Subject: [LMB] OT: An aside on "selfishness" Message-ID: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F53702A7C99E@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> Hi Eric: Well, (she says, retreating into political theory), the classic anarchist position is that if you're not using something, why hang onto it? If someone else can *make use* of it - not just "want" it for the hell of it - why not let them? This all supposes that everyone will treat the object with the same care and will return it or make it available to others on the same basis. Of course, practically speaking, we all have stuff we want to have on hand at all times - I don't think any sensible anarchist advocates people snatching things off someone else just because they're not using it *right then*. And there's the concept of respect for other people's "boundaries", which I think should be pretty fundamental. Maybe all that is idealistic, but what political theory isn't? As for "no" meaning "no", of course it ought. But sometimes it helps to know the reason for that "no". When someone like Larry Ellison is earning 100s of millions a year and refuses to give a housing shelter a donation of a few thousand, that refusal could seem pretty arbitrary. If he explained that he was already giving 90% of his income to Amnesty International, that would be a lot more justifiable. If he says no just so he can go and spend 10s of millions on a fancy yacht, I think it reasonable that he be questioned on those priorities. [do I need to say this is a purely hypothetical example?]. On the other hand, if you personally don't want to do something, I don't see that you should have to spend time after time justifying yourself. Once - if you're clear - should be sufficient. But it's really selfishness on the macro level I object to - that whole "sink or swim", social darwinist, law-of-the-jungle type thing. If someone wants to be personally selfish, fine, leave them to it. If someone wants to be careful with distributing their time and resources, more power to them. But I also deeply believe that co-operation and sharing has enabled us to evolve as human beings (and is true for a lot of other creatures as well). And that society is better as a whole when we help each other. A big sticking point for the libertarians is that they don't believe their generosity should be enforced/legislated - and actually, neither do anarchists. But I believe that legislated generosity (ie taxes spent on welfare) is better than going back to the days of workhouses, alms and "dark satanic mills". (And here is another sentence that begins with a conjunction, just to wrap it up). I personally wouldn't mind if a bunch of libertarians wanted to set up a country where they did things their way, and we did things our way, and we could see where the population ended up! In the end, it would probably boil down to what suited certain personality types. We've given every other kind of political organisation a go in one country or another - it'd be interesting to see if either the libertarian or anarchist theories (or both) could hold up in reality. > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Oppen [mailto:oppen at mycns.net] [snip] > Firstly, a question that has occurred to me repeatedly: > _Why_ is it "selfish" of me to want to keep something I have > when someone else asks for it---but _not,_ apparently, > selfish for this other person to demand something of mine on > no basis other than that he or she wants it? Is it not, > instead, far _more_ selfish of this other person to demand > something of me to which he or she has no claim? > > Secondly, while I, LMB-list Token Libertarian that I am, will > match my personal generosities---in terms of my time, my > money, sharing my goods, and the very blood in my > veins---with anybody on this list, I _do_ reserve the right > to say "No" and have that "No" be the end of the discussion. [snip] --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Wed May 14 05:08:29 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:08:29 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Aussie Beer OT: References: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F53702A7C99B@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> Message-ID: <007e01c319ce$7a4c8b60$9b8171cf@puter> Tracy MacShane corrects: > Kay (temp birthday Tixie), while we're on an antipodean note, Robin is a New Zealander, or at least he lives here. I know some people would *like* us to be a province of Australia, but we aren't quite one yet.... < My apologies--faulty memory! While I did see mention that Robin had won the auction of the first 6 chapters of PoS at the recent Emoticon, I haven't actually read a post from him in many, many years. Thus, I mis-remembered. > As for the drinkable beer, it wasn't Foster's, was it? Mmmm, I'd go a really good Coopers, that's one of the best things to come out of Aussie < Now the beer incident/memory is much more recent--a party on Cinq Mai.(Usually referred to as the famed Cinco de Mayo party, but this year, with all the silly anti-French hoo-ha going about, the party's reference was changed; flew a French flag on the front porch as well, along with a Czech... all of which would require more explanation than I deem wise to put into this reply....) Anyway. One of the highlights of this particular traditional party is the variety of beers brought to it, or brewed especially for it. Since the home-made porter I really wanted wasn't sufficiently chilled, the Foster's was recommended. IIRC, on the label it indicated that while it had been brewed somewhere in Texas (San Antonio, perhaps?), it was a licensed product of Foster's of Australia and produced under their auspices. I assumed that to mean by their recipe and method, and per their quality control. And it was *good*! On the other hand, the week before I'd tried a sip of Guiness--honestly, I should add that I don't really party all *that* much, it was just happenstance! --and that was the most ghastly, nasty-tasting *ick* I'd ever tasted. If I'd have been close enough to an exit to run for it, I would've spit the stuff over the outside deck railing, I assure you. I shall never, quite *never* drink such skunk-juice again! In a further taste-experiment, I was given several bottles of various recipe by a home-brewer (of which that wonderful porter was one). I also tried an India Pale Ale which, after the initial startlement of both flavor and texture, I was rather fond of. I have yet to open a Bier d'Gard or California Common. Or the last Porter. Waiting for a special occasion for that one! ~ Kay --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Wed May 14 05:14:52 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 21:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: An aside on "selfishness" In-Reply-To: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F53702A7C99E@PICO.staff.vuw.ac . nz> Message-ID: <20030513211221.G78333-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Wed, 14 May 2003, Tracy MacShane wrote: > Well, (she says, retreating into political theory), the classic > anarchist position is that if you're not using something, why hang onto > it? If someone else can *make use* of it - not just "want" it for the > hell of it - why not let them? This all supposes that everyone will > treat the object with the same care and will return it or make it > available to others on the same basis. Because it's chaotic. Because I, or an ancestor of mine, worked to get it. Because I don't want to. > As for "no" meaning "no", of course it ought. But sometimes it helps to > know the reason for that "no". When someone like Larry Ellison is > earning 100s of millions a year and refuses to give a housing shelter a > donation of a few thousand, that refusal could seem pretty arbitrary. If > he explained that he was already giving 90% of his income to Amnesty > International, that would be a lot more justifiable. If he says no just > so he can go and spend 10s of millions on a fancy yacht, I think it > reasonable that he be questioned on those priorities. I absolutely do not think you have the right to tell me what to do with my stuff, or get together a mob to take it away from me. Nor do I think that wealthier people than I have fewer rights. And if I'd rather give my money to the NRA than AI (as I would), that's my business, too. ~malfoy, who reserves the right to shoot looters :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Wed May 14 05:29:53 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 00:29:53 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: An aside on "selfishness" Message-ID: <001101c319d1$77f65f00$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> As for myself, I am selfishly inclined to the notion that whatever other merits full and frank discussion of this topic may have, if I have to sit through it again I'm probably going to end by eating my own head, and while I may be wrong, I'm probably not the only one. Might I suggest we put the apples and oranges on the pizza along with the red herrings? We can bake it over the fire from the straw persons. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Wed May 14 05:38:13 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:38:13 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Buffy Bye-Bye Way OT: References: <009901c319ba$0aa43150$d18dd70c@MainComputer> Message-ID: <00dd01c319d2$a1bc3ac0$9b8171cf@puter> Allen mourns: > This is way off topic and if someone wants to exile me I will understand. < So long as the "OT:" marker is properly in place, it is perfectly all right to open virtually *any* discussion. Only if it exceeds the 3-day limit allowed to offtopics might there be an objection. But it's also quite permissible to find like-minded enthusiasts here, and form your own temporary mini-group to discuss to your hearts' content. Or, wth something as popular as BtVS, its other fans hereabouts can surely also help you find a mailing-list group completely devoted to the show, if you'd like. AKICIF, after all! > Countryboy(Allen) - trying to figure out what he is going to watch now. < Recommend "The West Wing," which I just heard was given a full two-year contract extension . If you like that sort of thing--it's the only tv I watch, in fact--then you're probably safe from cancellation for some time to come. ~ Kay, sympathizing, having lost several near-obssessive favorites over the years.... --------________--------________-------- From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz Wed May 14 05:57:34 2003 From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:57:34 +1200 Subject: [LMB] OT: An aside on "selfishness" Message-ID: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F53702A7C99F@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> > -----Original Message----- > From: Azalais Malfoy [mailto:tiamat at tsoft.com] > > On Wed, 14 May 2003, Tracy MacShane wrote: > >> If someone else can *make use* of it - not just "want" it for > > the hell of it - why not let them? > Because it's chaotic. > > Because I, or an ancestor of mine, worked to get it. Because > I don't want to. > Fine. Although in this day of technology and communication, "chaos" doesn't have to happen when distributing resources. As for working to get something, yes, of course. But what if resources weren't scarce? What if when someone came and borrowed X, you could borrow it back or get a new X whenever you liked? > I absolutely do not think you have the right to tell me what > to do with my stuff, or get together a mob to take it away from me. > > Nor do I think that wealthier people than I have fewer rights. > > And if I'd rather give my money to the NRA than AI (as I > would), that's my business, too. > > ~malfoy, who reserves the right to shoot looters :) > I am certainly not saying that wealthier people should have fewer rights - I just question the need to have wealthy people! Be that as it may, no, no-one has the right to *tell* you what to do with your stuff, but I think we should all be able to ask each other (no matter what our economic resources). If you don't ask, you don't get, eh? In my utopian society, if you want to just sit there on a pile of your possessions, go for it. Just don't expect anyone to share with you. That is what boils down to the libertarian position, and I am fully in favour of those who believe in that to go and practise that. Just don't wave your guns around in my face! (I'd have to shoot my water pistol at you). Finally, yes, I have odd notions of possessions - I don't get jealous either, unless I think I'm losing out on something. But I can see this discussion going on forever, as Marna says. I'll be happy to take this offlist if anyone can be bothered! --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 14 06:17:38 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 01:17:38 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Scientific integrity Message-ID: <54.113bd26f.2bf32b72@aol.com> In a message dated 5/13/2003 5:59:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: There's only one problem with all this--listen to expert scientific testimony at a big, important-case-type trial sometime. Experts A, B, and C are saying one thing for the plaintiff, and experts D, E, F, G, H, I, and J are saying just the opposite for the defendant (defendants usually have a lot more money to invest in these cases). Guess who wins? Mary > Message: 11 > Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:40:17 -0700 > From: Damien Sullivan > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Subject: [LMB] science morality OT: > Reply-To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 02:39:56PM -0500, Louann Miller wrote: > > >>Hey, I make judgements. is a lying weasel > and > >>this is evil. Scientists actually have a very strong if simple morality, > > >>and I think they may be less forgiving than usual. > > >(1) on most matters there is no specific "scientist morality" any more > than > > >(2) The exception is the scientific method, which cast in moral terms > >states Thou Shalt Not Lie, Ever. This generally takes the form not of a > > Right. And I think this is potentially a "one foul and you're out" kind of > thing. Although I don't know what happens to scientists who get caught: do > they end up with teaching jobs at minor universities? I'm not sure I > believe > they're totally exiled from the field, without having read any followup. > > Of course scientists don't necessarily hold the same code throughout their > life; lying to a spouse, or in department politics, probably happens a lot. > OTOH, I am one of a subculture where extending Thou Shalt Not Lie to > everyday > life is considered not entirely reasonable or undesirable. > > >precept. Gray areas like "I could have checked my facts, but I forgot" or > >"I was pretty sure it was true, so I said it as if I had checked it" are > > ...although in random discussion we're sometimes sloppy on these counts. :) > But we know we're being sloppy, and go *eek* if we mess up. > > Actually, Louann, shouldn't there also be > > (3) When You're Wrong, Admit It, It's Not the End of the World --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 14 06:22:05 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 01:22:05 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Rube Goldberg contraptions Message-ID: <5a.1c5bf674.2bf32c7d@aol.com> In a message dated 5/13/2003 8:41:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: I don't suppose any of you youngsters are old enough to remember Rube Goldberg cartoons. I used to spend a few minutes every Sunday trying to figure out just how the thingumabob worked the whoozis and made the mome raths outgrabe, or whatever. Mary > Message: 1 > Subject: RE: [LMB] OT: Link Fantastic.... > Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:03:46 +1200 > From: "Tracy MacShane" > To: > Reply-To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > Yeah, that is just the coolest ad. It reminds me of the 70s/80s UK > children's show, Vision On. It had a lot of content for deaf children > and was thus very visual. The end piece of the show was with a mad > boffin-type presenter who always had some incredibly complex contraption > that ran and did things much like the Honda ad - components were Meccano > pieces, string, gears, wheels and general random objects. That was the > highlight of the week for me. I even remember wondering at the age of 11 > or so how the guy managed to build all that in the space of the week. > http://www.its-prof-again.co.uk/vision_on.htm - alas, no pics of the > inventions > > Given the fact the Honda ad was made in the UK, and the age I am now, I > wouldn't be surprised if the concept hadn't come about from someone > having watched Vision On at a formative age. Having done a google > search, I've found the mad inventor is called Wilf Lunn - he's got a > great baby feeding invention - http://www.wilflunn.com/inventions.htm > --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 14 06:28:15 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 01:28:15 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Political mistakes Message-ID: In a message dated 5/13/2003 8:41:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: I cannot think of a way that this could be said any better or more accurately! Mary > If he didn't think this was going to come and bite him in the credibility > one day, he hasn't got the political sense that G*d gave a biscuit and > ought > to have stayed out of trying to make public policy, or gotten himself a > stalking horse with no politically imprudent personal habits, what else is > there to say? --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Wed May 14 06:47:27 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 01:47:27 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Chalionverse Religion Message-ID: <48.1cb13a2f.2bf3326f@aol.com> In a message dated 5/13/2003 8:41:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: I'm just rereading CoC for the ?th time, and I don't think anyone in it is what we would usually define as "free" except possibly Cazaril before the soldier dropped the gold coin. And he was desperately looking for a way to be less free and more fed. How could people who were so dependent on the whims of everyone who outranked them, even of their rather whimsical gods, be free? I don't mean that it would be a bad life, just not a very free one. And it seemed like the higher the rank, the less the freedom. I know, man was supposed to have free will, and did make his own choices. However, with a feudal government, curses possible, death miracles, privilege, power, and considerably more than a dash of theocracy, it was not a free society in any of the kingdoms described in any detail. Actually, the Roknari sounded the least free, then possibly the Ibrans (mostly because of the long war of rebellion), the Chalionese, and little was said about the freedom levels in Darthaca or the other countries, but I got the impression they were about like Chalion. As far as the theology--well, it's original in its attributes. However, the leading theologians seem to have more power than any religious group since the Inquisition. A lot of what goes on reminds me of the Salem witch trials, except that the gods of Chalion really did intervene. However, Cotton Mather thought he was right, too. Thank goodness for brave, bright souls like Iselle. Mary > Message: 10 > Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:31:14 -0700 (PDT) > From: Susan Profit > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Subject: Re: [LMB] Re: freedom - back on topic > Reply-To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > Okay, in honor of Lois' new PoS, anyone care to take a try at placing > the Chalioniverse kingdoms on the spectrum of least free to most free > (and given we are dealing with differing cultures state why they gave > the placements they did?) > > I'd be interested to see how the Quadrene/Quintarian theology is > exemplified by the spectrum in the eyes of other readers. > --------________--------________-------- From megj at nwlink.com Wed May 14 06:16:58 2003 From: megj at nwlink.com (Meg Justus) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:16:58 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Names about history References: <20030513030535.64378.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000701c319de$c636f370$efcb4b43@meg> Raye: > I don't think that 'Tau Verde IV' is what the > *Cetagandans* call it. No. I'm sorry. I was less than clear. It is what Miles and the other Barrayarans call it, so I assumed that was the name it was known by throughout the Nexus. The "numbering" system I was referring to with regards to the Cetagandan Empire's planetary satrapys was the Greek alphabet thing -- Rho Ceta, Eta Ceta, etc. Not to be confused with Tau Ceti in the first place (which I did for the *longest* time...), which doesn't belong to Cetaganda in the first place. Megaera --------________--------________-------- From megj at nwlink.com Wed May 14 06:31:01 2003 From: megj at nwlink.com (Meg Justus) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:31:01 -0700 Subject: [LMB] "Yar" References: <000f01c31975$71bbb1a0$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <000801c319de$c709d3d0$efcb4b43@meg> the Ultimate Authority says: > It's a real Russian word, I believe -- comes from "Babi Yar", and refers to > some geographical feature that escapes my memory at present -- "valley", I > think. So Barrayar and Sergyar share that root. > > Komarr, I just liked the sound of. Thanks, Lois. I've wondered about that for ages. Megaera --------________--------________-------- From megj at nwlink.com Wed May 14 06:57:05 2003 From: megj at nwlink.com (Meg Justus) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:57:05 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Aussie Beer OT: References: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F53702A7C99B@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> <007e01c319ce$7a4c8b60$9b8171cf@puter> Message-ID: <000901c319de$c7ef03b0$efcb4b43@meg> Kay asserts: > On the other hand, the week before I'd tried a sip of > Guiness ... I shall never, quite > *never* drink such skunk-juice again! Wahoo, Kay! Someone *else* who thinks Guinness tastes like mud-flavored syrup! Megaera whose only sip of the stuff took place at the brewery in Dublin -- if it's not good there, where the heck is it going to *be* good??? --------________--------________-------- From oppen at mycns.net Wed May 14 08:38:13 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 02:38:13 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on "selfishness" Message-ID: <008701c319eb$c7498900$f5560043@hppav> While my learned friend, Tracy, makes some interesting points, I find her arguments rather...lacking in substance. Firstly, I have learned, the hard way, that allowing my stuff out of my hands to just everybody that asks is a good way to kiss most of it goodbye. These days, what I loan out goes to people I know, and it had better be back in my hands in a reasonable time, in good working order, or there WILL be Hell To Pay. It also so happens that my "boundaries" do not encompass just giving to any random dingaling. As I've said before on this list, when we were having our semi-annual Gender War, I tend to classify people, and if you're asking for more than I think you're entitled to (as in "she just 'wants to be friends' but she's asking for stuff that I'd hesitate to give to someone who at least deigns to boink me) this is crossing my boundaries with a vengeance. Secondly, the amount of wealth I may have at my disposal is irrelevant to whether I _should_ give to someone who asks me. Larry Ellison _may have_ "obscene" amounts of wealth---I disremember what he did to get it---but he has every right to spend it all on yachts, if he feels like it, and give nothing to homeless shelters. He may feel that buying a yacht, thereby employing boatbuilders, craftsmen of various sorts, maintenance personnel, and the Coast Guard, does more good for "society" than pouring money on a problem that he didn't create. For that matter, he may have my attitude toward this particular problem. I spent thirteen incredibly unhappy years as an unwilling "enabler" to two alcoholics, and I am _done_ with that sort of nonsense for good and all. Others' addictions, or alcoholism are _not_ my responsibility, and a case can be made for making such people face the consequences of their actions. You don't want to dry up? Fine! Don't come bawling to _me!_ And may the gods have mercy on you if you try "equalizing the wealth" by force---our fellow listie Jean Lamb has noted that burgling the house of an incipient Evil Overlord (ex-postal worker, gun collector, and quiet loner that I am) is tatamount to suicide. Frankly---_particularly_ after what happened to my mom and great-aunt---I could shoot a burglar a day and never lose a second's sleep over it. Free Tony Martin! And on the "macro" level: How is society helped by nurturing a class of people whose whole schtick is accepting charity while never being self-reliant? The ghods know that I understand completely about how unfair luck can be, but (to drag this back to Bujold, since All Things Visible and Invisible are Contained In Bujold's Works) there is a difference between Lieutenant Vorberg (who had bad luck) Miles (who had _one_ bad lapse of judgement, and paid dearly for it) and Etienne Vorsoisson (whose asinine behavior lost him everything, and serve him right.) When is it appropriate to tell an Etienne to "lie in the bed you made?" Among other things, forcing charity to give to the undeserving taints the appeals of the deserving (Charles Dickens knew _all_ about this; read his essay on "The Begging-Letter Writers" sometime; it's quite enlightening, and a good read as well) and diverts resources that are never unlimited. To give to the undeserving, in the final analysis, robs the deserving. Oh, and I should mention that almshouses, workhouses and places like that were _deliberately designed_ to be bleak, unpleasant places. This wasn't because the Victorians were hard-hearted, but for a reason: they were supposed to be an absolute last resort. The less pleasant they were, ran the theory, the more incentive there was for people who _could_ survive outside of them to do so. Of course, it wasn't as bad as it could be now; they didn't have Muzak. --------________--------________-------- From joasia at fandom.art.pl Wed May 14 08:53:07 2003 From: joasia at fandom.art.pl (Jo'Asia) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:53:07 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Re: "Yar" In-Reply-To: <000f01c31975$71bbb1a0$0500000a@oemcomputer> References: <000f01c31975$71bbb1a0$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <1554964634.20030514095307@galaxy.uci.agh.edu.pl> My comconsole brought me this letter from Lois McMaster Bujold: > It's a real Russian word, I believe -- comes from "Babi Yar", and refers to > some geographical feature that escapes my memory at present -- "valley", I > think. So Barrayar and Sergyar share that root. In Polish the word 'yar' means ravine, gorge. Canyon is too big to be called a 'yar'. And 'yar' does not have rock edges. > Komarr, I just liked the sound of. In Polish and Pussian "komar" means moskito, gnat... That is probably the reason that in Russian translation Komarr was transformed to Komarra. In Polish it is Komarr. Jo'Asia -- __.-=-. joasia at fandom.art.pl Joanna Slupek .-=-.__ --<()> http://bujold.fantastyka.net/ http://esensja.pl/ <()>-- .__.'| ...................................................... |'.__. A day without sunshine is like, well, night. --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Wed May 14 08:55:16 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 08:55:16 +0100 Subject: [LMB] All Knowledge is found on this List OT: In-Reply-To: <200305140416.h4E4G8r5015325@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030514085221.00af7fa0@pop.luna.co.uk> Jason Bontrager points out that:- >PowerPoint allows mouse control.... But PowerPoint does not show all the pictures in a directory (folder), you have to create the show and, IIRC, size the pictures yourself. Otherwise PP is ideal. James - who has toothache --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Wed May 14 09:16:27 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:16:27 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: An Aside on Selfishness In-Reply-To: <200305140416.h4E4G8r5015325@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030514090301.00b2fd80@pop.luna.co.uk> To bring this down to the basics - taxation - I do not want to fuel the Socialist v Libertarian debate as I have too much sympathy for BOTH sides. What really irritates me, and I suspect many Libertarians who would actually not mind so much if their resources were taken to do good, is that too often the money is demonstrably WASTED. James - standing well back after this one --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Wed May 14 09:07:54 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:07:54 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Aussie Beer OT: In-Reply-To: <200305140416.h4E4G8r5015325@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030514090506.039b0888@pop.luna.co.uk> Kay had a "sip" of Guinness, hated it, and will never willingly drink it again. This may be a mistake - few beers taste well when sipped, they must be quaffed* James - quaffer *It's like drinking - but you spill more --------________--------________-------- From captnmvk at galaxy.plala.or.jp Wed May 14 10:42:34 2003 From: captnmvk at galaxy.plala.or.jp (Mizuho Yoshida) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:42:34 +0900 Subject: [LMB] Availability of Japanese copies (survey on Amazon.co.jp) References: Message-ID: <000601c319fd$262fe840$fc032fda@gc> Michael R N Dolbear asks: > > "Spiritto Rinngu" (= Spirit Ring) (\980) (3-4 days) > [...] > > "Miraa Dannsu, volume 1" (= Mirror Dance) (\960) (3-4 days) > Can I ask how the titles sound to a Japanese ear ? > Are all of Spiritto, Rinngu, Miraa, Dannsu assimilated loan words or are > they exotically foreign like anime or senshi in English ? Spiritto (= spirit), rinngu (= ring), miraa (= mirror), kuroun (= clone) and danmsu (= dance) are now used in Japanese commonly. So they do not sound very foreign to us, I believe. But for example, shards, honour, infinity, etc will sound a bit strange if you use them in Japanese composition. Nowadays we adopt a lot of English words, though. Mizuho Yoshida --------________--------________-------- From rmacdonald at microd.com Wed May 14 11:05:01 2003 From: rmacdonald at microd.com (Richard Macdonald) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 06:05:01 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: William Bennet (was: freedom and nudity) References: <20030512.170514.3720.7481@webmail02.lax.untd.com> <05d001c31931$c9fc4170$050d4b43@LAPTOP> <006901c31941$5894a0d0$6c3a0144@Laptop> <007101c3199a$5c87d690$3201a8c0@mbaxis> Message-ID: <3EC214CD.BA4B7C1A@microd.com> Michael Bauminger wrote: > > Pam was one of a number of listies who took a shot at William > Bennet; I responded to hers because I saw it first. > > Full disclosure: I have never met or spoken to William Bennet, > nor have I ever read his books. I happen to be somewhat right > leaning myself and I think this guy is getting a bum rap. > > On Tuesday, May 13, 2003 7:18 AM, Pam wrote: > > > Paula Asks: > > > > Who's William Bennett? > > > > Me: He's the guy who writes on virtues who recently was > > exposed for having list millions of dollars gambling. He > > never spoke against gambling, of course. Now he says he > > won't gamble anymore. But it took a public (National TV) > > exposure to show that his house was as glass as any > > others. > > Was his house really as glass as you say? You admit he never > spoke out against gambling, so he is not a hypocrite. As far as > we know he has never committed a crime to support his gambling > habits, he is not in debt, he has not deprived his children - > maybe he sincerely believes that gambling, in and of itself, is > not a vice? I happen to believe that. I also believe that > drinking alcohol, in and of itself, is not a vice. Both can be > taken to excess, and both can become vices for individuals. That > does not mean it happened in this case. > > The news only reported the amounts he lost; no mention was made > of the amounts he won, and he insisted he was almost even over > the years. That sounds to me like a form of recreation that he > enjoyed and that he paid for, much as other people pay for, for > example, opera boxes, greens fees, etc. To get back on Bujold, how does this compare to Cordelia's discussion with Mark about all greatness coming from flawed individuals; and expecting greatness in spite of their flaws. -- Richard A. Macdonald. CPA/EA SSG (Ret), USA, ADA 16P34 Dedicated follower of Fr Luca Paccioli, Master Juggler. Delenda est Carthago -- Cato the Elder --------________--------________-------- From sir-talen at comcast.net Wed May 14 11:08:55 2003 From: sir-talen at comcast.net (Royce Day) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 06:08:55 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: William Bennet (was: freedom and nudity) References: <20030512.170514.3720.7481@webmail02.lax.untd.com> <05d001c31931$c9fc4170$050d4b43@LAPTOP> <006901c31941$5894a0d0$6c3a0144@Laptop> <007101c3199a$5c87d690$3201a8c0@mbaxis> Message-ID: <3EC215B7.5030007@comcast.net> Michael Bauminger wrote: >The news only reported the amounts he lost; no mention was made >of the amounts he won, and he insisted he was almost even over >the years. That sounds to me like a form of recreation that he >enjoyed and that he paid for, much as other people pay for, for >example, opera boxes, greens fees, etc. > >-- Michael > > He was playing the slots primarily, the $100 a pop ones. You *don't* break even on those over the long run, that's why the house makes sure they're everywhere in the casino. In the USA, gambling is considered an addiction in many cases as pernicious as drug or alcohol addiction. For the former Drug Czar to suffer from it, as he apparently does, is--- ironic--- to many. -Royce in MD --------________--------________-------- From rmacdonald at microd.com Wed May 14 11:15:51 2003 From: rmacdonald at microd.com (Richard Macdonald) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 06:15:51 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Fascist Barrayar? References: <20030513201834.GA17440@ofb.net> Message-ID: <3EC21757.CF2562FA@microd.com> Damien Sullivan wrote: > > David Friedman asked on rasfw for example of books with sympathetic portrayals > of Fascism, like all the alleged examples of sympathetic portrayals of > Communism. Someone said > > >Even since Aral Vorkosigan's remark, "If we had had mind control, > >I would have used it", I have thought that Lois McMaster Bujold's > >Barrayar books have had a sympathetic regime with fascist tendencies > >and occasional acts. > > to which I replied: > > When did Aral say that? > > But yeah, being a fan of the books and then imagining being a civil > libertarian on Barrayar -- or someone in Human Right Watch, I guess -- viewing > ImpSec from the outside is a shaking experience. Pull people off the street > and truth-drug them, no right to due process, some media control although > possibly not exercised much under Gregor. > > I'm not sure if it's really a nice view of fascism vs. a nice view of > enlightened feudalism or enlightened despotism. See what can happen when the > Good Guys are in charge! Of course it's convenient that Komarr submitted so > readily. Note how no sympathetic character questions the occupation and > annexation of Komarr. > > I suppose it would help to agree on what fascism really means. > > Barrayar: cult of militarism, check. (Veterans are "honorary Vor".) > Personality cult of the leader, semi-check -- classrooms are required to have > pictures of the Emperor and the Count (Memory or some other later book, where > Miles goes to visit and they have a non-standard picture of him up as well). > Secret police with near absolute power to disappear someone, check. (They > just only disappear the right people.) Lack of ability to change your leaders > short of civil war, check. (Although a recent innovation allows you to change > the Count you live under.) Strong gender roles, check. Prejudice against the > physically infirm, check check check. Leon Trotsky would say no, see below: from: http://eserver.org/history/fighting-fascism/ chapter 1 of Leon's Trotsky's pamphlet FASCISM -- What It Is and How To Fight It ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ FASCISM -- WHAT IS IT? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Extracts from a letter to an English comrade, November 15, 1931; printed in _The Militant_, January 16, 1932 What is fascism? The name originated in Italy. Were all the forms of counter-revolutionary dictatorship fascist or not (That is to say, prior to the advent of fascism in Italy)? The former dictatorship in Spain of Primo de Rivera, 1923-30, is called a fascist dictatorship by the Comintern. Is this correct or not? We believe that it is incorrect. The fascist movement in Italy was a spontaneous movement of large masses, with new leaders from the rank and file. It is a plebian movement in origin, directed and financed by big capitalist powers. It issued forth from the petty bourgeoisie, the slum proletariat, and even to a certain extent from the proletarian masses; Mussolini, a former socialist, is a 'self-made: man arising from this movement. Primo de Rivera was an aristocrat. He occupied a high military and bureaucratic post and was chief governor of Catalonia. he accomplished his overthrow with the aid of state and military forces. The dictatorships of Spain and Italy are two totally different forms of dictatorship. It is necessary to distinguish between them. Mussolini had difficulty in reconciling many old military institutions with the fascist militia. This problem did not exist for Primo de Rivera. The movement in Germany is analogous mostly to the Italian. It is a mass movement, with its leaders employing a great deal of socialist demagogy. This is necessary for the creation of the mass movement. The genuine basis (for fascism) is the petty bourgeoisie. In italy, it has a very large base -- the petty bourgeoisie of the towns and cities, and the peasantry. In Germany, likewise, there is a large base for fascism.... It may be said, and this is true to a certain extent, that the new middle class, the functionaries of the state, the private administrators, etc., can constitute such a base. But this is a new question that must be analyzed.... In order to be capable of foreseeing anything with regard to fascism, it is necessary to have a definition of that idea. What is fascism? What are its base, its form, and its characteristics? How will its development take place? It is necessary to proceed in a scientific and Marxian manner. --- Barrayar is run by an aristrocratic military caste, it is essentially feudal, not fascist. It lacks the socialist aspects of fascism as well as the state control of industry. -- Don Iain of Rannoch, OWST Husband to Lady Elizabeth of Cranstone -- Richard A. Macdonald. CPA/EA SSG (Ret), USA, ADA 16P34 Dedicated follower of Fr Luca Paccioli, Master Juggler. Delenda est Carthago -- Cato the Elder --------________--------________-------- From sir-talen at comcast.net Wed May 14 11:24:23 2003 From: sir-talen at comcast.net (Royce Day) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 06:24:23 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Link Fantastic.... References: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D2072538E@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> Message-ID: <3EC21957.3010803@comcast.net> Jagoda, Lynette K wrote: >First watch this: > > > >Then read this: > > > >Make sure you read the article after watching the video. > > Rube Goldberg would cry with joy if he saw that. Thank you. -Royce in MD --------________--------________-------- From pnewman at gci.net Wed May 14 11:46:38 2003 From: pnewman at gci.net (Peter Newman) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 02:46:38 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: Song of Solomon References: <200305140040.h4E0e3r5014455@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EC21E8E.8090105@gci.net> Marna Nightingale" wrote > I'm not sure there exists a person who has read the Song of Songs who takes > the words entirely at face value. The question of interest, I think, is > this: of all of the possible allegorical forms available, why is *openly > erotic poetry and prose* far and away the most popular? Because most people find poetry so uninteresting that it takes a subject as exciting as sex to get them interested in anything said in poetry. Almost all people simply can't be bothered without a lascivious tie in (and most can't be bothered even with one). I've heard that right now the number of people who write poetry exceeds the number of people who read poetry. [Note: I am not saying if this is good or bad, nor that I agree with it.] --------________--------________-------- From pnewman at gci.net Wed May 14 12:00:27 2003 From: pnewman at gci.net (Peter Newman) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 03:00:27 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Nexus life extension References: <200305140040.h4E0e3r5014455@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EC221CB.9010702@gci.net> Jason Bontrager wrote > Peter Newman wrote: >> It might also be that the Betans know that the Jacksonians have a >> comparative advantage in the field and that their efforts would not be >> economically competitive. To the extent Beta Colony is a capitalist >> society it's technological products _must_ make money. >> Since the Duronas have all that Jacksonian knowledge they'll may >> be able to make it work where the Betans could not. > I'd have to differ with you on this. Even if the Holers make more per > client, they have a very short client list. A more ethical, and less > expensive, treatment would sell like hotcakes. And not only to people > who find the clone-transplant thing unacceptable. Likewise even if > the procedure is more expensive (unlikely as the clone-transfer has to > take into account the costs of feeding and raising the clone, and that > ain't cheap) you'd still get plenty of ethical rich people (not a > contradiction in terms ya know!) who want to live longer but aren't > willing to go the clone-route. > Basically I don't see the Betans *not* developing this technology if > it's possible, unless they have some kind of Samothracian/Leon Kassian > prejudice against life-extension in general. The distinction is probably more on the 'less expensive' side than on the 'more ethical' side. Don't confuse quantity demanded and demand. The text clearly establishes that using ancephalic (brainless) clone bodies doesn't work because they are in poor health. Even if you could solve the poor health side the ancephalic bodies would have to receive round the clock expensive hospital care for years, while clone children can be put in foster care that is at least 100 times cheaper. Thus an ethical solution could cost much, much more. The real solution is probably some sort of 'forced growth' for clone bodies. We know the Nexus already has some sort of forced growth since they were able to grow Aral's heart [in Memory] fairly fast. If this technique could be extended to grow whole ancephalic bodies that fast than round the clock medical care for the ancephalic clone would be cheaper (and require much less customer preplanning) than taking years to grow a cephalic clone and dumping its brain. That would be how to shut down the Jacksonians. Best of all people who are currently waiting for a Jacksonian clone would be fairly likely to switch to the new faster method. Of course than the young clones would probably be sold to the slave brothels but that's another problem. --------________--------________-------- From pnewman at gci.net Wed May 14 12:40:38 2003 From: pnewman at gci.net (Peter Newman) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 03:40:38 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Fascist Barrayar? References: <200305141017.h4EAH5r5016772@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EC22B36.8010507@gci.net> > Richard Macdonald wrote > Damien Sullivan wrote: >> David Friedman asked on rasfw for example of books with sympathetic portrayals >> of Fascism, like all the alleged examples of sympathetic portrayals of >> Communism. Someone said >> >Even since Aral Vorkosigan's remark, "If we had had mind control, >> >I would have used it", I have thought that Lois McMaster Bujold's >> >Barrayar books have had a sympathetic regime with fascist tendencies >> >and occasional acts. >> I suppose it would help to agree on what fascism really means. >> >> Barrayar: cult of militarism, check. (Veterans are "honorary Vor".) >> Personality cult of the leader, semi-check -- classrooms are required to have >> pictures of the Emperor and the Count (Memory or some other later book, where >> Miles goes to visit and they have a non-standard picture of him up as well). >> Secret police with near absolute power to disappear someone, check. (They >> just only disappear the right people.) Lack of ability to change your leaders >> short of civil war, check. (Although a recent innovation allows you to change >> the Count you live under.) Strong gender roles, check. Prejudice against the >> physically infirm, check check check. > > > Leon Trotsky would say no, see below: > FASCISM -- WHAT IS IT? > The genuine basis (for fascism) is the petty bourgeoisie. > Barrayar is run by an aristrocratic military caste, it is essentially > feudal, not fascist. It lacks the socialist aspects of fascism as well > as the state control of industry. Perhaps more to the point not only does Barrayar not meet Trotsky's definition of Fascism the Barrayarans themselves say they are not fascist. See 'Brothers in Arms' Ch. 9 Miles and Duv Galeni discuss Barrayaran politics while held captive by Ser Galeni: "I'm just dazzled by the glittering tinsel of neo-fascism," Galeni informed him [Miles] blandly. "Is that how he phrased it? Anyway it's feudalism, not fascism, apart maybe from some of the late Emperor Ezar Vorbarra's experiments in centralism. The glittering tinsel of neo-feudalism I will grant you." "I am thoroughly familiar with the principles of Barrayaran government, thank you," remarked Dr Galeni. The general world we're looking for that describes both Barrayar and fascism (and the Cetagandan Empire, etc.) is _authoritarian_. --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Wed May 14 13:08:19 2003 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 08:08:19 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on "selfishness" References: <008701c319eb$c7498900$f5560043@hppav> Message-ID: <00c001c31a15$b45ec150$3201a8c0@mbaxis> On Wednesday, May 14, 2003 3:38 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: > While my learned friend, Tracy, makes some interesting > points, I find her arguments rather...lacking in > substance. What HE said! I agree entirely. I want to comment more specifically on the following parts of Eric's post: > How is society helped by nurturing a class of > people whose whole schtick is accepting > charity while never being self-reliant? > Among other things, forcing charity to give to the > undeserving taints the appeals of the deserving > and diverts resources that are never > unlimited. To give to the undeserving, in the final > analysis, robs the deserving. One of my favorite charities is a free loan society. They don't give away the money they collect; they loan it to people who pay it back, without interest, over a period of years. Then they lend it out again. It is a favorite of mine because a) I am helping deserving people, as is evidenced by the fact that they pay back the loans that they receive, and b) my gift keeps on helping such people indefinitely. This comes from Tracy's post that Eric's was in reply to: >> I am certainly not saying that wealthier people should >> have fewer rights - I just question the need to have >> wealthy people! In the Soviet Union, they used to have a saying: "As long as the government pretends to pay us, we will pretend to work." There was no way for the average person to become wealthy in the Soviet Union. As a corollary, manufactured goods were shoddy and basic essentials like food and toilet paper were in short supply. Society needs wealthy people, if for nothing else, for the motivation their example provides. (I am going to put everything I have into this business because I want to be rich like him!) It also needs to reward the efforts of people who put in the effort to make themselves wealthy, because if it doesn't they will stop putting that effort in. Society may not need those people to be wealthy, but it needs their efforts. -- Michael --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Wed May 14 13:56:27 2003 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:56:27 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Fascist Barrayar? Message-ID: > From: Damien Sullivan > Date: 13 May 2003 21:18 > > David Friedman asked on rasfw for example of books with sympathetic portrayals > of Fascism, like all the alleged examples of sympathetic portrayals of > Communism. Someone said > > >Even since Aral Vorkosigan's remark, "If we had had mind control, > >I would have used it", I have thought that Lois McMaster Bujold's > >Barrayar books have had a sympathetic regime with fascist tendencies > >and occasional acts. > > to which I replied: > > When did Aral say that? > > But yeah, being a fan of the books and then imagining being a civil > libertarian on Barrayar -- or someone in Human Right Watch, I guess -- viewing > ImpSec from the outside is a shaking experience. Pull people off the street > and truth-drug them, no right to due process, some media control although > possibly not exercised much under Gregor. > > I'm not sure if it's really a nice view of fascism vs. a nice view of > enlightened feudalism or enlightened despotism. See what can happen when the > Good Guys are in charge! Of course it's convenient that Komarr submitted so > readily. Note how no sympathetic character questions the occupation and > annexation of Komarr. > > I suppose it would help to agree on what fascism really means. > > Barrayar: cult of militarism, check. (Veterans are "honorary Vor".) > Personality cult of the leader, semi-check -- classrooms are required to have > pictures of the Emperor and the Count (Memory or some other later book, where > Miles goes to visit and they have a non-standard picture of him up as well). > Secret police with near absolute power to disappear someone, check. (They > just only disappear the right people.) Lack of ability to change your leaders > short of civil war, check. (Although a recent innovation allows you to change > the Count you live under.) Strong gender roles, check. Prejudice against the > physically infirm, check check check. Actually some of these are statist rather than just Fascist, my mind has just translated Ezar into Stalin/Mao and the Council of Counts into the Central Committee and Barrayar has demonstrated a peaceful transfer of power, which no Fascist regime ever managed. textelfing away [ACC ch 15 ] Aral speaking to Miles "Third, there is no thought controlor I'd certainly have put it to use before this. Trying to shape, or respond to, what every idiot on the street believeson the basis of little logic and less informationwould only serve to drive you mad." [BiA ch 9 ] Miles grinned sourly. "What, it wasn't for the spiffy boots?" "I'm just dazzled by the glittering tinsel of neo-fascism," Galeni informed him blandly. "Is that how he phrased it? Anyway, it's feudalism, not fascism, apart maybe from some of the late Emperor Ezar Vorbarra's experiments in centralization. The glittering tinsel of neo-feudalism I will grant you." I think of Lois's success more in "best portrayal of a secret police hero" than fascist. -- Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Wed May 14 14:34:15 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 07:34:15 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Aussie Beer OT: References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030514090506.039b0888@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <003301c31a1d$83b8b580$778171cf@puter> James claims: > Kay had a "sip" of Guinness, hated it, and will never willingly drink it again. > This may be a mistake - few beers taste well when sipped, they must be quaffed* [*It's like drinking - but you spill more] < The only place I'm "quaffing" Guinness is over the railing of the deck. With apologies to any ant beds or innocent gophers that it hits. (Though come to think of it, that may or may not be a more environmentally friendly way to be rid of the pests....) ~ Kay --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed May 14 15:03:23 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 07:03:23 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Song of Solomon In-Reply-To: <3EC21E8E.8090105@gci.net> References: <200305140040.h4E0e3r5014455@lists.herald.co.uk> <3EC21E8E.8090105@gci.net> Message-ID: <20030514140323.GA3426@ofb.net> On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 02:46:38AM -0800, Peter Newman wrote: > Marna Nightingale" wrote > >the words entirely at face value. The question of interest, I think, is > >this: of all of the possible allegorical forms available, why is *openly > >erotic poetry and prose* far and away the most popular? > > Because most people find poetry so uninteresting that it takes a > subject as exciting as sex to get them interested in anything > said in poetry. Almost all people simply can't be bothered without a Historically that's not true. AFAIK it's not true right now in the Arab world, where poetry is part of the air, or so I've heard. And arguably it's not true even in the USA, it's just that our poetry is set to music and called "popular music". Foofy modern lit poetry without rhyme, rhythm, or reason, now that's not popular. But the skalds and bards had *power*. Piss off a skald and you could be immortalized in ridicule. Because people *did* care about those rhymes. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed May 14 15:09:21 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 07:09:21 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Scientific integrity In-Reply-To: <54.113bd26f.2bf32b72@aol.com> References: <54.113bd26f.2bf32b72@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030514140921.GB3426@ofb.net> On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 01:17:38AM -0400, CatMtn at aol.com wrote: > There's only one problem with all this--listen to expert scientific testimony > at a big, important-case-type trial sometime. Experts A, B, and C are saying > one thing for the plaintiff, and experts D, E, F, G, H, I, and J are saying > just the opposite for the defendant (defendants usually have a lot more money > to invest in these cases). Guess who wins? Uh, who? And what's your point? -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Wed May 14 15:32:36 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 08:32:36 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Happy Birthday to... Kevin Kennedy! Message-ID: <006001c31a25$aa7aea00$778171cf@puter> It's another trip in the WayBack Machine: Former listie Kevin Kennedy recently popped back onlist, hoping to be able to keep up by web-reading from the public library--go libraries!--computer. Hope you receive this, Kevin! She (yes, *she*, as we oldtimers clearly recall ) also asked who the Birthday Tixie is nowadays. Well, Kevin, jump into that good ol' WayBack with me.... it's once again... me. What goes around.... And so I declare: Happy "-Ish" Birthday, to our forty-ISH (well, she said so, and we're stickin' to it) Ms. Kennedy! May you have a lovely day, with a twenty-one (or forty-something) book salute, sweet, sunny weather, chocolate to your favorite taste, and a fine swirl of virtual tixie-dust.... ~ Kay Carrasco, T[emp]BT ===== ~~O8:> --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Wed May 14 16:06:52 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 08:06:52 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: An aside on "selfishness" Message-ID: "Eric Oppen" wrote: Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:02:26 -0500 >I get...quite irritable...on this point, particularly when dealing with >people who are very loud that "No means No!" This is one of my beefs with some feminists, BTW. From conversations with them, they're quite into the right to say "No!"---until I say "No!" to something _they_ want. Then I get all the same sorts of emotional blackmail and pressure they complain about, applied to me.< Sorry, Eric, gotta tweak you here! It was just too funny. I can be *very* literal minded and will therefore read something again if what I've read was *too* delightfully absurd to be what the writer actually wrote. When feminists (or any woman) say, "No means No!," there is a specific topic and activity at hand. So, when you wrote that you get very irritated when you say, "No" to them, they don't take no for an answer. My first thought was, "Gee, I wonder what exactly these women were asking for that Eric was having to fend them off with a stick!" Then, realizing you couldn't possibly have been meaning that, I sadly turned back to the political topic. I got a really good laugh out of it, anyway! Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Wed May 14 16:12:36 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 08:12:36 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: An aside on "selfishness" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 15:53:08 +1200 "Tracy MacShane" wrote: >As for "no" meaning "no", of course it ought. But sometimes it helps to know the reason for that "no". When someone like Larry Ellison is earning 100s of millions a year and refuses to give a housing shelter a sharing has enabled us to evolve as human beings (and is true for a lot of other creatures as well). And that society is better as a whole when we help each other. A big sticking point for the libertarians is that they don't believe their generosity should be enforced/legislated - and actually, neither do anarchists. But I believe that legislated generosity (ie taxes spent on welfare) is better than going back to the days of workhouses, alms and "dark satanic mills". < Hi, all! I don't think you need to be an anarchist to share those views. I'm Republican and (generally) conservative (although I often think I must be a closet Democrat ), but I hold those tenets to be dear, as well. Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Wed May 14 16:17:14 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 08:17:14 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: An aside on "selfishness" Message-ID: From: "Marna Nightingale" Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 00:29:53 -0400 >Might I suggest we put the apples and oranges on the pizza along with the red herrings? We can bake it over the fire from the straw persons.< Sorry, Marna, I get digest format and responded before I saw this. Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From Pouncer at aol.com Wed May 14 16:50:34 2003 From: Pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 11:50:34 EDT Subject: [LMB] poetry ot: Message-ID: > Peter Newman > > I've heard that right now the number of people who write poetry > exceeds the number of people who read poetry. > To whatever extent this is true, it is true because poetry is meant to be heard and not read. So the poetry market is well-served by the singer-songwriter or TinPanAlley or folk/filk or urban rap _lyricist_. And, after all, there are even in Dallss poetry "slams" where the poets read their stuff to audiences. Anybody have an opinon of "Mighty Wind" yet? --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Wed May 14 17:02:33 2003 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:02:33 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: An aside on "selfishness" References: <021701c319c5$4c042e60$6e4a0043@hppav> Message-ID: <3EC26898.15BC4197@erols.com> Eric Oppen wrote: > Secondly, while I, LMB-list Token Libertarian that I am There is Another. Alex H. --------________--------________-------- From nrusson at rogers.com Wed May 14 17:21:51 2003 From: nrusson at rogers.com (nrusson at rogers.com) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:21:51 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: An aside on "selfishness" Message-ID: <20030514162151.YEXR4557.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.roger s.com@localhost> > Alexandra Haropulos wrote: > Eric Oppen wrote: > > > Secondly, while I, LMB-list Token Libertarian that I am > > There is Another. There are several, but we don't band together too well..."plays well with others" is probably the least common way of describing [l|L]ibertarians. ;-) Regards, Nicholas The "up-to-his-eyeballs-in-packing" other one --------________--------________-------- From nrusson at rogers.com Wed May 14 17:25:19 2003 From: nrusson at rogers.com (nrusson at rogers.com) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:25:19 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: An aside on "selfishness" Message-ID: <20030514162519.YFRU4557.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.roger s.com@localhost> > "lorraine fletez-brant" wrote: > Sorry, Marna, I get digest format and responded before I saw this. I read my mail on a web-based mail client which leads me to read my mail in oldest-to-newest batches of 20, but newest-to-oldest within each batch. So I didn't see the Pizza call until after I'd posted. Sorry. Regards, Nicholas The "shoulda enabled the read-ahead buffer" other one --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Wed May 14 17:27:35 2003 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:27:35 -0400 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Freedom References: <20030508141707.G26419-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <1052432978.962.8.camel@orac> <3EBAEA3D.EEE2912F@redmaplegrove.org> <3EBAEDF9.5E02098A@redmaplegrove.org> Message-ID: <3EC26E76.8A25C077@erols.com> Marna Nightingale wrote: > I need to replace my CS Lewis; he talks somewhere about how an offence > against modesty, properly, must contain the intent to flaunt oneself. Well, I donno. The thing that I saw that most recently strongly offended me was two Central American women, obviously very recently in the U.S., allowing their bare-bottomed two-year old boy to run around the grocery store. On the other hand, I think the yuk factor was mostly about sanitation. Maybe a lot of these issues are more around sanitation than mores (like the soap commercial about the bus used by nudists...) My mother's rationale for keeping breastfeeding private was that it needed to be a quiet, calming episode for the baby. Makes sense to me. Somehow, she never seemed to have a need to breastfeed in public, as busy as she was. Umm, maybe it's a planning issue? Alex H. --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Wed May 14 17:31:19 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 17:31:19 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Poetry (WAS OT: Song of Solomon) In-Reply-To: <200305141101.h4EB1Er5016944@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030514172718.00b07a38@pop.luna.co.uk> Peter Newman has heard that:- >The number of people who write poetry exceeds >the number of people who read poetry. Which explains itself. If people who write it don't read it they are not going to write it very well - so why should anybody else want to read what they've written? James - who both reads it (often) and writes it (rarely except for limericks) --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Wed May 14 17:36:52 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:36:52 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Aussie Beer OT: In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030514090506.039b0888@pop.luna.co.uk> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030514090506.039b0888@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EC270A4.30600@lvhot.org> James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: > Kay had a "sip" of Guinness, > hated it, and will never > willingly drink it again. Well, Guinness isn't the beer for all occasions, at least not for me. As a point of reference, I didn't grow up drinking American "Beer." Sometimes Guinness is just too heavy and a milder, lighter beer is more pleasant. Other times, it is just right. > This may be a mistake - few > beers taste well when sipped, > they must be quaffed* > James - quaffer > *It's like drinking - but you spill more I'll drink to that. Was corrupting (err, training) some potential regulars at Ebisu a week ago...you know you've mostly succeeded when they'll eat Oysters Barnaby and do Sake Bombs (which must be quaffed). Robert --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Wed May 14 17:20:24 2003 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 17:20:24 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on "selfishness" Message-ID: > From: Eric Oppen > Date: 14 May 2003 08:38 [...] > Oh, and I should mention that almshouses, workhouses and places like that > were _deliberately designed_ to be bleak, unpleasant places. This wasn't > because the Victorians were hard-hearted, but for a reason: they were > supposed to be an absolute last resort. The less pleasant they were, ran Wrong as to almshouses and eg, Chelsea Hospital which were older as a concept than the Victorian poor law and meant for the "deserving but unfortunate". Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Wed May 14 17:30:12 2003 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 17:30:12 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Aussie Beer OT: Message-ID: ---------- > From: James M. BRYANT, G4CLF > Date: 14 May 2003 09:07 > > Kay had a "sip" of Guinness, > hated it, and will never > willingly drink it again. > > This may be a mistake - few > beers taste well when sipped, > they must be quaffed* > > James - quaffer > > *It's like drinking - but you spill more Perhaps Kay could start with Guinness and Steak Pie ? Personally I find Guinness useful (Campari too) because you can't drink it fast, so reducing the risk of falling asleep during the afternoon. "Would you recommend others to try Guinness" "No, there will be more for meeeeeee". Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Wed May 14 18:00:21 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on "selfishness" In-Reply-To: <008701c319eb$c7498900$f5560043@hppav> Message-ID: <20030514092408.J73007-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Wed, 14 May 2003, Eric Oppen wrote: > Firstly, I have learned, the hard way, that allowing my stuff out of my > hands to just everybody that asks is a good way to kiss most of it goodbye. I just don't like having people's hands all over things. It's a visceral reaction. I don't want to wonder who else has been in my clothes (or worse, shoes--and I am rough on shoes, you don't want them after I've had them). I mean, I will occasionally buy Really Cool Stuff from thrifts or vintage, but I clean it to within an inch of its life. I tend not to go to the library much because if I really like a book I have a hard time remembering to give it back and I've ended up spending more on fines than the book would have cost me on several occasions. My house is FULL of books. I have over 200 Barbie and GI Joe type dolls that I fuss with. I do not want to let children play with them and have them come back with their hair cut and their shoes missing (at best). My stuff is MY STUFF. I've been this way all my life. I resented deeply, as a child, being forced to "share" my toys with children who did not play with them gently and broke pieces off, and being expected to be gracious about it. I have a deep and highly visceral reaction to the anarchist notion that I have no right to my property. It makes me want to shoot something. You can call me selfish if you like. I'll just assume you're using Rand's definition, and consider it a compliment. :) I don't want to live in a world where all the stuff belongs to the lending library of stuff and you have to give it back and let other people use it. I like to buy things new and I like knowing that if they get messed up, I have no one but myself (and/or my intimates, whom I love more than my stuff, but this list of people is SHORT) to blame. > Secondly, the amount of wealth I may have at my disposal is > irrelevant to whether I _should_ give to someone who asks me. If you haven't a choice about giving something to someone, it isn't a gift. It disturbs me to hear people say, oh, well, so and so has a lot of money, and therefore they don't have the right to it. Enforced charity is hardly charity. I once wrote (long ago) a libertarian defense of single-payer health care as a civil defense issue (bacteria, virii, biochemical glitches, and accidents have much in common with crime and military invasion--and I don't mind contributing to mutual defense of any kind as part of a social contract, long as we're not making Moral Judgements and we're defending everyone's health, no matter what they eat, drink, or smoke, or who they sleep with and how, or what their dangerous hobbies are, be that rock climbing, smoking, or sleeping around). But it kind of boggles my mind to hear someone say, "oh, well, I was on the dole for a couple years because I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do." What you do when you can't figure out what you want to do is something, whatever there is to do, until you come up with a better option. Go to school, work a S**t Job, whatever. Your confusion is not a cause I would choose to support. And I really wish that I hadn't been given quite so many student loans when I was confused, because I'll be paying them till I'm 70. (Good thing we're not planning on dying round here! ^_~) If I had known then what I know now...it's really my only regret in life and it's part of what MADE me the libertarian I am today. There should be REQUIRED counseling before they dispense that money. I have some sympathy for the problem of a multiple-parent family that suddenly becomes a single-parent family due to death or divorce, because I do think everyone's happier when kids are raised at home. We won't go into what I think about people who decide, without the support and approval of any other potential parents or their families, to become single parents and then either expect a former acquaintance Who Did Not Sign Up For This, or everyone else, to support their decision financially, cause it usually leads to pizza calls. ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From iosef at gothic.net.au Wed May 14 18:05:09 2003 From: iosef at gothic.net.au (I) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 03:05:09 +1000 Subject: [LMB] Song of Solomon In-Reply-To: <20030514140323.GA3426@ofb.net> References: <3EC21E8E.8090105@gci.net> <200305140040.h4E0e3r5014455@lists.herald.co.uk> <3EC21E8E.8090105@gci.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20030515030336.00b7c098@mail.gothic.net.au> At 12:03 AM 15/05/2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: >But the skalds and bards had *power*. Piss off a skald and you could be >immortalized in ridicule. Because people *did* care about those rhymes. Which brings us back to Arals observations about Honor and reputation. And back on topic.... Iestyn --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Wed May 14 14:01:13 2003 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:01:13 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: An Aside on Selfishness References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030514090301.00b2fd80@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <00de01c31a3e$2a2d9230$3201a8c0@mbaxis> On Wednesday, May 14, 2003 4:16 AM, James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: > To bring this down to the basics - taxation - > I do not want to fuel the Socialist v Libertarian > debate as I have too much sympathy for BOTH sides. > > What really irritates me, and I suspect many > Libertarians who would actually not mind so much > if their resources were taken to do good, is that > too often the money is demonstrably WASTED. Oh, yes! NYC is currently in a budget crunch. There is a huge deficit looming and the city charter *requires* that the budget be in balance OR ELSE. It has gotten to the point where the city has laid off (sacked) roughly 3,500 people and is threatening to lay off another 10,000, unless it can come up with extra funding through a combination of tax hikes and give backs from the municipal employees. My first thought was, "Why are they laying people off? Why don't they just slash the budgets of the individual departments and make the department heads find the money in their budgets for everything they want to keep? If they really cannot find fat to cut, then the department heads can lay people off." My second thought was, "They have laid off 3,500 people and it has had no effect on city services. If they lay off another 10,000 it probably will still not have any effect on city services.[1] That means that there were more than 13,000 people being paid by the public purse - out of my pocket, and the pockets of my neighbors - that were in effect doing nothing for me or anyone else. Talk about a waste of money!" What I want from my various governments right now is spending cuts. -- Michael [1] Yes. New York City really does have so many people on its payroll that it can lose 13,000 and (maybe) not have any noticeable effect on city services. The city's budget this year is more than $45,000,000,000. --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Wed May 14 19:33:26 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 11:33:26 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Miles moment In-Reply-To: <00de01c31a3e$2a2d9230$3201a8c0@mbaxis> Message-ID: <00bf01c31a47$4f1544e0$f6422904@earthlink.net> I had to go rescue Brendan (my 7 year old) last night. He'd climbed into bed, preparatory to night-time. He'd then spotted a stuffed animal on the floor next to his bed that he wanted. Now, he has a raised bed - not quite a bunkbed, but about at my chest level, that requires a 3-step ladder to get up into it. So I heard him calling for help, and there he was, legs on the bed, torso hanging down, hands having grabbed the edge of the bed and just barely keeping him from falling off. This is not the first time we've had to rescue him from this situation. He clearly *thinks* he's tall enough to reach a toy on the floor, even though he isn't. Made us think of Miles and Ekaterin falling into the pond in _Komarr_, and him telling her about the experience with the shuttle in _Borders of Infinity_. Someday when he's read those himself we'll have to remind him of this and tease him. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed May 14 19:57:38 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:57:38 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Aussie Beer OT: In-Reply-To: <3EC270A4.30600@lvhot.org> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030514090506.039b0888@pop.luna.co.uk> <5.1.1.6.2.20030514090506.039b0888@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030514135455.01dac760@pop.east.cox.net> At 11:36 05/14/2003, Robert Parks wrote: >James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: >>Kay had a "sip" of Guinness, >>hated it, and will never >>willingly drink it again. > >Well, Guinness isn't the beer for all occasions, at least not for me. As >a point of reference, I didn't grow up drinking American >"Beer." Sometimes Guinness is just too heavy and a milder, lighter beer >is more pleasant. Other times, it is just right. Guiness, technically, is stout. Most American brands are lager, and some ale. >>This may be a mistake - few >>beers taste well when sipped, >>they must be quaffed* > >>James - quaffer > >>*It's like drinking - but you spill more > >I'll drink to that. Was corrupting (err, training) some potential >regulars at Ebisu a week ago...you know you've mostly succeeded when >they'll eat Oysters Barnaby and do Sake Bombs (which must be quaffed). The word I heard for drinking beer was "schlock" (sp?); gulp it down. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Wed May 14 20:26:45 2003 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 15:26:45 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Terry Pratchett interview Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030514152331.00a84530@pop3.norton.antivirus> at http://www.scifiweekly.com/issue316/interview.html Enjoy! Jerrie, sharer of good things --------________--------________-------- From lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov Wed May 14 20:54:46 2003 From: lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov (Jagoda, Lynette K) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:54:46 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Sherwood on Scientific Morality and Taxes.... Message-ID: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20034423@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> Lynette on Morality and Honesty in Science: I work at a national lab. I live in the city with the most PhD/capita in the nation. And my comments are as follows... 1) You can be no more honest with others than you are with yourself. And megalomania combined with self righteous self aggrandizing is a hard combination on "self honesty". 2) Narrow focused, stubborn, intelligent, confident, glory seeking, territorial about ideas/knowledge..... all very common traits in the scientist/engineering types, that help drive their successes, but also provide an Achilles heal when it comes to team work and open "honest" communication. 3) There is a fallacy out there that Science is all about *facts* therefore somehow Science = Absolute Truth... And more than a few Scientists buy into this myth themselves. But in reality Science is really all about best interpretations of the data we have/can see at this point in time from a specific angle of view. And these interpretations are *highly* influenced by the patterns the individual doing the interpretation is mostly likely to recognize, which is highly influenced by cultural and individual subjective factors. Bottom line, Science helps...but it doesn't have all the answers. But scientists often become as highly personally vested in their theories of choice as others do about religious beliefs... and they become just as resistant to even *hearing* alternate theories. For an interesting example I have included a link to a summary of a debate that was, from what I hear, quite vicious in its day among certain circles. On a personal note, might I throw in that "Uniformitarianism" as described in this article is just plain silly IMO, even on a geological scale. It is of course the basis for all "Extrapolation" of data... that the past and future, data above and below the test zones and time scales we can test will behave similarly to what we can test. But every scientist worth their weight in salt *knows* this is conjecture we find comforting and often reliable, but certainly not a certainty. Lynette on Taxes: I work at a national lab... run by a contractor but for the government... trust me you don't have to tell me about "wasted tax money"... but then we all waste some money. Make bad decisions etc. What makes anybody think the government, run by "committee" is going to be any better. I am all for less taxes in theory and more efficient use of the money that is collected. But I also have a real world view of some of the things our taxes pay for that I want to see maintained and grown. I like being able to get in my car and drive from here to Florida and smooth roads. etc. There is not a charitable campaign on the planet that could raise the capital required to acquire and run National Parks, State University Systems, Health and Safety programs like the FDA, etc. So I absolutely think there is a place to say... this is the bottom line amount of money required to function as a society/government. Minimal military, no national parks, no R&D into new medicine, no grand interstates, no frills of any kind. And that "tax" burden should be distributed as evenly across the board as possible. But there are other things that should be done, *need* to be done even, and taxes is the only way they are going to be done. Therefore it is perfectly reasonable to "tax" those who have more than enough a little more, as a way to pool resources in a fashion that provides the extras that make society better across the board. Especially since those with disposable incomes are going to most likely make use of and benefit from these added goods and services. Like concert halls, interstates, national parks, new miracle drugs etc. Going to the moon. It was a good thing. We as a society have benefited, even financially, in ways beyond comprehension from scientific advances made from that jaunt. And that is something that never would have happened without some tax above and beyond basic government subsistence funds. Personally I like to think of my tax burden, all several thousand $ a year, as going directly to National Parks and the Space Program. Things I would happily support of my own free will. Then I don't feel so "unfairly" burdened when I pay them. Let's Go Mars!!!! Lynette <--- Lunch is over, back to work --------________--------________-------- From pam at gotcher.us Wed May 14 21:01:01 2003 From: pam at gotcher.us (pam) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 15:01:01 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Terry Pratchett interview In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030514152331.00a84530@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030514152331.00a84530@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20030514200101.M31001@gotcher.us> Gee, I guess that tells us where we will find him at cons. Jerrie said: > at http://www.scifiweekly.com/issue316/interview.html > > Enjoy! --------________--------________-------- From adamek at mac.com Wed May 14 21:04:29 2003 From: adamek at mac.com (Adam Ek) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:04:29 -0700 Subject: [LMB] poetry ot: Message-ID: <4199755.1052942669373.JavaMail.adamek@mac.com> Meddle not in the affairs of filkers, for they are not subtle, and your name can scan to Greensleeves. Adam Ek adamek at mac.com --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Wed May 14 21:17:29 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:17:29 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on "selfishness" In-Reply-To: <008701c319eb$c7498900$f5560043@hppav> Message-ID: <00ce01c31a55$d81987c0$f6422904@earthlink.net> Good for you, Eric, I agree with you. > Etienne Vorsoisson (whose asinine > behavior lost him everything, and serve him right.) When is > it appropriate to tell an Etienne to "lie in the bed you made?" In general, I agree, that the Etiennes of the world deserve what they get. There is a bit of an exception - it would be nice if we can rescue the Ekaterins and Nikkis. I know I'd frequently told my parents that they should stop rescuing my sister and just let her sink or swim - they'd told me they were going to toss her out and make it stick, and why hadn't they? They finally told me that they'd decided they were willing to let her sink - but they weren't willing to watch the grandkids sink with her. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From mail at stephenthomas.uklinux.net Wed May 14 21:27:04 2003 From: mail at stephenthomas.uklinux.net (Stephen Thomas) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 21:27:04 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Gregor moment (heading OT) In-Reply-To: <00bf01c31a47$4f1544e0$f6422904@earthlink.net> References: <00bf01c31a47$4f1544e0$f6422904@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3EC2A698.2080703@stephenthomas.uklinux.net> Laura Gallagher wrote: > I had to go rescue Brendan (my 7 year old) last night. > [ ... snip ... ] Heh, my son Alastair (he's a few months off 5) has a similar bed (we call 'em "cabin beds" in the UK). He's not done what yours did yet, but I'm now living in fear of what'll happen as he gets older and more confident! But, if we're talking about our kids reminding us of books, then I've got an inverse story for you. When I was reading the bit in _Barrayar_ about Kou and Drou's wedding, when how little 5 year old Gregor stole out of bed just so he could be at his Drousie's wedding, I choked up because my own lad has done very similar things - especially the part about being satisfied with being there for 15 minutes. I'm reading "A Presumption of Death" by Jill Paton Walsh and Dorothy L Sayers right now. At one point one character comments to another that kids just want to be treated just like adults. From experience, I have to say that this is not quite true. I think most kids just do not want to be excluded from what is going on around them, and want to feel that they are making their own choices. Stephen --------________--------________-------- From bhurt at spnz.org Wed May 14 21:42:55 2003 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 15:42:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: An Aside on Selfishness In-Reply-To: <00de01c31a3e$2a2d9230$3201a8c0@mbaxis> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 May 2003, Michael Bauminger wrote: > My second thought was, "They have laid off 3,500 people and it > has had no effect on city services. If they lay off another > 10,000 it probably will still not have any effect on city > services.[1] That means that there were more than 13,000 people > being paid by the public purse - out of my pocket, and the > pockets of my neighbors - that were in effect doing nothing for > me or anyone else. Talk about a waste of money!" > > What I want from my various governments right now is spending > cuts. > I don't know about NYC, but up here in the Great North Woods, we're laying off policemen and firemen. Personally, I'd take a tax hike before laying off either of those. But this gives rise to Brian's rule of layoffs- the first people to go are the last people you want to go. In the govermental sphere, there are two reasons for this: 1) Generally, people who do real work (patrol the streets, fight fires, etc) are too busy doing their real work to play the political games to protect their jobs. The parasites who don't do any real work have all the time in the world to do whatever is necessary politically to protect their jobs. So *politically* it's easier to fire people doing real work than those who don't. 2) Bureaucrats measure their social status in terms of how much money their budget is and how many people report to them. As such, they get penalized for cutting the "fat". If they cut the fat- the people who don't actually do anything usefull- they never get that budget, or those underlings, back again. If they cut the meat, however, they will (eventually) get it back once the real work those people did is missed. Of course, if you question why they choose to not fire some people, they will (of course) produce reams of documentation about how vital and irreplacable they are (Brian's rule of status reports- the amount of real work done by an individual is inversely related to the length of their status reports). The same rules work for corporations, but for an additional reason: the knowledgable and skilled workers, who are generally also the most *valuable* employees, can, of course, get jobs elsewhere. Knowledge and skills are always desired. Once the layoffs are announced, these people assume the company is going down the tubes and jump ship. The people who stay are the ones who feel they can't get a job anywhere else and probably couldn't get their current job either (they're generally right in my experience). So all the skills and knowledge leave, and the company goes down the tubes. Brian --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Wed May 14 21:38:12 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:38:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: rambunctious hair (was re: Song of Solomon) In-Reply-To: <20030514022041.GB24501@ofb.net> Message-ID: <20030514203812.50081.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Sullivan a icrit : > I'm just not sure calling a woman's hair > rambunctious > is a compliment... I don't know about a compliment, but my hair is certainly rambunctious. We joke that it's going to break away and form its own government... Joy Lantemran ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From bhurt at spnz.org Wed May 14 21:51:30 2003 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 15:51:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: Terry Pratchett interview In-Reply-To: <20030514200101.M31001@gotcher.us> Message-ID: He obviously attends different cons that I do- either that, or English cons scare me. Brian On Wed, 14 May 2003, pam wrote: > Gee, I guess that tells us where we will find him at cons. > > > Jerrie said: > > > at http://www.scifiweekly.com/issue316/interview.html > > > > Enjoy! > --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Wed May 14 21:44:48 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:44:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: An aside on "selfishness" pizza call In-Reply-To: <001101c319d1$77f65f00$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Message-ID: <20030514204448.5042.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> --- Marna Nightingale a icrit : > > if I have to sit > through it again I'm probably going to end by eating my own head > Might I suggest we put the apples and oranges on the pizza along with the > red herrings? We can bake it over the fire from the straw persons. But not Marna's head, please; it looks much better where it is... Joy Lanterman ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Wed May 14 21:46:21 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:46:21 +1200 Subject: [LMB] OT: Beer and the drinking thereof In-Reply-To: <3EC270A4.30600@lvhot.org> Message-ID: > Well, Guinness isn't the beer for all occasions, at least not for > me. As a point of reference, I didn't grow up drinking American > "Beer." Sometimes Guinness is just too heavy and a milder, > lighter beer is more pleasant. Other times, it is just right. After years of experimentation on this very topic, I have come to the final realisation that the way to drink beer is to follow the sun. Match the colour of the sun to the beer you are drinking. In a country with a strong sun, (NZ, Aussie) during the day you should drink a lager. In the afternoons, winter days or in countries with a weaker sun (UK, Northern Europe) a Red, Bitter or Light Ale is appropriate. As the sun sets further on the day and night closes in drink darker and darker ales, and stouts. Thus it pays to have a favourite beer in each catagory :-) Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Wed May 14 21:51:25 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:51:25 +1200 Subject: [LMB] US Beer OT: In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030514135455.01dac760@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: > Guinness, technically, is stout. Most American brands are lager, > and some ale. I always thought American Brands of Beer are "Sex in a Canoe" ie "F**king close to water" :-) --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Wed May 14 19:04:59 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 19:04:59 +0100 Subject: [LMB] ASF - Analog Science Fiction Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030514185510.03ade6c0@pop.luna.co.uk> I have been offered the following issues of ASF in "fair" condition as part of a package containing earlier issues that I do want. Anyone want to make me an offer off-list? >>1963: July (trade size) >>1967: June through December >>1968: Complete except July >>1969: Complete >>1970: Complete >>1971: February, March, April >>1972: January, February, May, June, August, >> September, October, November, December >>1973: Complete except July >>1974: February, March, April, May, July, >> August, September, October, November, December >>1975: May, June, July, August James - who will swap even for a copy of PoS delivered anytime in May --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Wed May 14 22:03:12 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:03:12 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Terry Pratchett interview In-Reply-To: References: <20030514200101.M31001@gotcher.us> Message-ID: <20030514210312.GB16141@fireopal.org> On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 03:51:30PM -0500, Brian Hurt wrote: > He obviously attends different cons that I do- either that, or English > cons scare me. > > Brian > > On Wed, 14 May 2003, pam wrote: > > > Gee, I guess that tells us where we will find him at cons. > > > > > > Jerrie said: > > > > > at http://www.scifiweekly.com/issue316/interview.html > > > > > > Enjoy! {mrfl, mrfl top-posting MS software} I've been running cons, and hearing con stories, for a number of years now. From both sides of the pond. By my understanding... The short answer - British hotels don't waive corkage. Ever. That means that the con - if it is going to provide food or drink - had to either buy all the comestibles from the hotel catering department, or pay a large bribe to be allowed to bring their own stuff in. Usually, the bribe is more than what you'd save bringing stuff in. So, Brit Cons don't have the equivalent of North American con-suites. In point of fact, corkage _in theory_ even applies to individual rooms - but I don't know of a hotel in the US that even tries to enforce this, as long as you're reasonably discreet (And reasonably discreet is actually pretty blatant - as long as you aren't putting up posters, you're probably safe) - but I've heard that Brit hotels enforce it moderately frequently. So, the bar becomes the default hang-out location. To our British members - is this a reasonably accurate summary, at least as far as British practice? -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Wed May 14 22:16:19 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 23:16:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] poetry OT: In-Reply-To: <4199755.1052942669373.JavaMail.adamek@mac.com> Message-ID: <20030514211619.63187.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adam Ek a icrit : > Meddle not in the affairs of filkers, for they are not subtle, and your name > can scan to Greensleeves. _Everything_ scans to Greensleeves. Greensleeves is not actually a song, it's a musical virus. It invades your instrument and overwrites every piece you know so that it comes out sounding like Greensleeves. If someone sends you a piece of sheet music entitled "Greensleeves," don't play it! Delete it at once! And send this message to everyone you know. ;-) Joy Lanterman ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From countryboy66 at mchsi.com Wed May 14 22:28:11 2003 From: countryboy66 at mchsi.com (Countryboy) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:28:11 -0500 Subject: [LMB] [OT]ASF - Analog Science Fiction References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030514185510.03ade6c0@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <009701c31a5f$b87a3d60$d18dd70c@MainComputer> I'll have to hunt down my list (I collect), but I definitely would like to offer. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James M. BRYANT, G4CLF" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:04 PM Subject: [LMB] ASF - Analog Science Fiction > I have been offered the following issues > of ASF in "fair" condition as part of a > package containing earlier issues that I > do want. > > Anyone want to make me an offer off-list? > > >>1963: July (trade size) > >>1967: June through December > >>1968: Complete except July > >>1969: Complete > >>1970: Complete > >>1971: February, March, April > >>1972: January, February, May, June, August, > >> September, October, November, December > >>1973: Complete except July > >>1974: February, March, April, May, July, > >> August, September, October, November, December > >>1975: May, June, July, August > > James - who will swap even for a copy of PoS > delivered anytime in May > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed May 14 22:45:43 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:45:43 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: rambunctious hair (was re: Song of Solomon) In-Reply-To: <20030514203812.50081.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030514022041.GB24501@ofb.net> <20030514203812.50081.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030514214543.GA16543@ofb.net> On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 10:38:12PM +0200, Joy W. wrote: > I don't know about a compliment, but my hair is certainly rambunctious. We > joke that it's going to break away and form its own government... Rebel Split End: "We must destroy the Death Shears now, or Darth Sabeau will destroy us once and for all!" "Luke, I am your follicle." -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov Wed May 14 22:55:50 2003 From: lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov (Jagoda, Lynette K) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:55:50 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) Message-ID: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20034425@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> Eric Says: (to drag this back to Bujold, since All Things Visible and Invisible are Contained In Bujold's Works) there is a difference between Lieutenant Vorberg (who had bad luck) Miles (who had _one_ bad lapse of judgment, and paid dearly for it) and Etienne Vorsoisson (whose asinine behavior lost him everything, and serve him right.) When is it appropriate to tell an Etienne to "lie in the bed you made?" End Snip... One bad lapse of judgment??? One mistake?!?!?! I love Miles, but he could be a poster child for potentially poor judgments and resulting collateral damage. Innocent Bystanders Beware!! He made a lifetime habit out of "lie now, make it be true later"... Is there such a thing as retroactive honesty? The only difference between Miles and Tien on this score really is Miles usually got away with it. Tien didn't. So honor is based on results not actions and intent?? The ends justify the means if you pull off the desired ends? If you redeem your lie and make it come out all shiny in the end all is forgotten? Would have Tien been tempted into accepting bribery if he had not been tying to conceal his "mutation" from the very society that drove Miles to such extremes. For both his protection and his son's. Are we to blanket forgive Miles and condemn Tien for responding to almost the exact same pressure in almost the exact same way. Twist the system to make it come out best for me and mine. Tien didn't know he was helping with "treason", he thought he was just doing some financial skimming to save his family. Unethical, yes, but he was between a rock and a hard place. Would Miles have done less? I think not... Miles did use worthless Radioactive land to secure a loan. Granted he "intended" to pay it back later and he did. But we have the wonderful benefit of the insight into Miles brain. Perhaps Tien intended to "pay back" his bribes once his "Trade Shares" came in to redeem his honor. We will never know. It is so *easy* to judge those we dislike and slather mercy and understanding on those we love. I for one, not having the ability to see into hearts and souls, am happy to abdicate "judging" to God. And even he puts the Mercy seat above the Judgment seat according to Jewish/Christian scriptures. Miles knows this lesson. He learned it the hard way. Thinking about Haroche later in Memory "Try, I'm Sorry. Give up on justification, go for mercy. You would be surprised what can happen." There is a grave danger in being judgmental. For by the measure that you judge, you shall eventually be judged. No in my life I pray not for justice, because when I am being honest with myself I know how badly I have failed. I have no wish to lie in some of the beds I have made. Instead I pray for mercy and grace to learn from ways I have failed. And having ask for that mercy for myself, do my best to extend the same, even to people I don't like or understand. Like Tien. I would do my best to not *enable* him to continue on destructive paths. But I also realize that sometimes when you pull people out of messes, they learn and grow. We will never know if Tien was capable of having a "Memory Type" redemption. He didn't have rich "Regent" for a father, unconditional love and support from extended family, nor get a bazillionth chance to recoup and learn from the repercussions of his bad choices on how to deal with his physical "challenges". Like Miles did. Lynette <--- Who one day is going to write up and post her dime store analysis of "Tien" .... --------________--------________-------- From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz Wed May 14 22:57:50 2003 From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:57:50 +1200 Subject: [LMB] OT: An aside on "selfishness" -final rant, please ignore if not involved Message-ID: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F53702A7C9A1@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> I said I wasn't going to talk about this any more on list, but I just can't stand having what I said mis-interpreted. > -----Original Message----- > From: Azalais Malfoy [mailto:tiamat at tsoft.com] [snip] > My stuff is MY STUFF. I've been this way all my life. I > resented deeply, as a child, being forced to "share" my toys > with children who did not play with them gently and broke > pieces off, and being expected to be gracious about it. [snip] Me too. And I think I said something along the lines of how sensible anarchists are not advocating ripping off someone's personal stuff. If someone comes into your private space and takes anything without your consent, they deserve the consequences. I think it's definitions of "personal stuff" that involve ostenstatious wealth where YMMV... And (I never thought I'd say this), I *do* actually agree with some of Ayn Rand's comments about selfishness - if I take them completely out of context, that is. ;-) > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Bauminger [mailto:mikebomb at myrealbox.com] [snip] > There was no way for the average person to become wealthy in > the Soviet Union. As a corollary, manufactured goods were > shoddy and basic essentials like food and toilet paper were > in short supply. > > Society needs wealthy people, if for nothing else, for the > motivation their example provides. [snip] I don't think there's any such corollary. There were plenty of wealthy people in the USSR, the ones running the government. As well as the fact that the premium resources were diverted to the elite, problems with the economy were due to rigid central planning and authoritarianism. I am not in favour of either of those things (I am not a Communist). Regarding motivation, I'm suggesting there might be other factors that could be equally motivating: respect, prestige, celebrity. It's just that wealth is symbolic shorthand for all those things in our society - and is often unrelated to the actual skill or effort expended. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jagoda, Lynette K [mailto:lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov] [snippage] > Personally I like to think of my tax burden, all several > thousand $ a year, as going directly to National Parks and the Space > Program. Things I would happily support of my own free will. > Then I don't feel so "unfairly" burdened when I pay them. [snip] Yes, I would *love* to be able to say where my taxes go. That, to me, would be true representational democracy (political power is useless without economic power) - really putting your money where your mouth is. Again, it would be fascinating to see what would come of such an arrangement. --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed May 14 22:58:55 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:58:55 -0700 Subject: [LMB] poetry OT: In-Reply-To: <20030514211619.63187.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4199755.1052942669373.JavaMail.adamek@mac.com> <20030514211619.63187.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030514215855.GB16543@ofb.net> On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 11:16:19PM +0200, Joy W. wrote: > --- Adam Ek a icrit : > Meddle not in the affairs of > filkers, for they are not subtle, and your name > > can scan to Greensleeves. > > > _Everything_ scans to Greensleeves. Greensleeves is not actually a song, it's > a musical virus. It invades your instrument and overwrites every piece you > know so that it comes out sounding like Greensleeves. If someone sends you a So, recalling Good Omens, what happens if you leave a tape of Greensleeves in the car for two weeks? "Queensleeves"? -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz Wed May 14 22:59:45 2003 From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:59:45 +1200 Subject: [LMB] OT: Beer and the drinking thereof Message-ID: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F537029D2C22@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> Mandos, thanks for the illumination! I like different kinds of beers at different times as well, but never quite found the correlation. Cool! > -----Original Message----- > From: Mandos [mailto:mandos at allowed.to] > After years of experimentation on this very topic, I have > come to the final realisation that the way to drink beer is > to follow the sun. > --------________--------________-------- From scott.r.padget at boeing.com Wed May 14 23:29:49 2003 From: scott.r.padget at boeing.com (Padget, Scott R) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 17:29:49 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom, nursing, and nudity OT: Message-ID: Okay, it's old, but as a verified attention hound I can't let it go.... Marna contrasted: > my jeans versus Padget's currently hypothetical hot pink shirt Hmmm. That word "currently" as a modifier to "hypothetical". I'm thinking perhaps I should be getting concerned about just how much control I'm going to have over changes to my wardrobe this summer. I mean, it's not as though I necessarily actually want that precise garment. As Marna herself pointed out, it's not that she *wants* to go about topless in public much, or even necessarily at all. It's more the implications of it not being allowed. Pilot Padget--actually more into purple and red than pink --------________--------________-------- From zafaran at sff.net Wed May 14 23:53:27 2003 From: zafaran at sff.net (Patricia A. Swan) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:53:27 -0400 Subject: [LMB] A Writer's case of Egoboo Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030514182606.02d9ca60@email.dnet.net> Hey, y'all. I was telling Jerrie Adkins about this on the phone Monday evening, and she said that I *had* to share this with y'all since you would like to follow *my* Adventures in Writing just like you follow Lois's, Charlie Finlay's, Pat Wrede's, etc. An ex-military, writer friend of mine, who also copy edits for a fanzine publisher, and I were talking in AOL Instant Messenger a couple of nights ago about how most fans and writers overlook the repercussions in both "Star Trek: Deep Space 9" and "Stargate SG1" of military training and combat on the supposed "geekie non-combatants" of Daniel Jackson and Julian Bashier, who were actually better at combat, and "shown on screen" to be better at combat than most fans will admit to. {Denial, much?} So I got to telling her about an SG1 story from my professional writing archives where I put stories/scripts for what are now dead markets, and the one time it went out for discussion to a group of writers involved in writing a Stargate SG1 virtual season, and how all Act Four got was screams and howls of outrage and shotdown by massed fire because it showed a combat-competent Daniel who's learned the lessons that he's been taught by Jack O'Neill and the others in five (now seven) years of one-on-one training in Special Ops. {Hello? Reality check, please. Daniel's been fighting co-equal in combat with Jack for a long time now when Teal'c and Sam have had to pull back to work on techie stuff while under fire.} So she wanted to hear the story I had in my script. By the time I can finish telling it to her, she want's to read it so badly she's doing multiple lines in the IM screen of "write it, write it, write it" and literally *begging* for me to turn it into prose fanfic since she works with me on another writing project, and they've been "drooling with anticipation" {her words} while waiting for the finish of the story over there. She's already put herself on-board as Beta One and US Air Force and Police Technical Adviser with her father (Career Air Force) as backup advisor for anything she doesn't know on the AF side, and her husband as back up advisor for Police and Marine Combat, within a half-hour she has Beta Two lined up and we are in a chat session with the woman who's in England and in the process of getting dressed for Church, and then, within 18 hours, she sends me a copy of the letter she got back from the 'zine publisher who she'd sent the information to from the IM and Chat to, and *she* is stating that she wants to read it--very, very badly, and she'll publish it as it's own stand-alone 'zine so it doesn't have to wait for a 'zine with a compatible theme to come up in the publication schedule. Pat in North Carolina (who's been grinning for days now) -- * Patricia A. Swan <*> zafaran at dnet.net Ebay ID: zafaranswan * * Six Swans Design http://members.fortunecity.com/zafaran * --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu May 15 00:13:46 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:13:46 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) In-Reply-To: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20034425@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> References: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20034425@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> Message-ID: <20030514231346.GA1276@ofb.net> On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 02:55:50PM -0700, Jagoda, Lynette K wrote: > financial skimming to save his family. Unethical, yes, but he was between > a rock and a hard place. Would Miles have done less? I think not... Miles > did use worthless Radioactive land to secure a loan. Granted he "intended" Hmm, good point. Depressing fanfic: tell various Miles stories where he's as big a risk-taker but not as lucky and competent. Like having to explain to Aral and Cordelia the radioactive land deal after he ends up in Betan court. Or see what happens if Ivan doesn't find him in time. Worst Thing ideas involving his children included "they're average" and "they don't want to be Count" and "they want to be Emperor". Did anyone include "they want to be Miles, but can't pull it off"? -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Thu May 15 00:17:37 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 19:17:37 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom, nursing, and nudity OT: Message-ID: <028101c31a6f$03398860$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> >Marna contrasted: >> my jeans versus Padget's currently hypothetical hot pink shirt > >Hmmm. That word "currently" as a modifier to "hypothetical". You're getting WAY too easy, hon. Don't worry. Hot pink is not your colour. I just wanted to see if you were paying attention :-) Marna. --------________--------________-------- From raye_j at yahoo.com Thu May 15 00:49:54 2003 From: raye_j at yahoo.com (Raye Johnsen) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Aussie Beer OT: In-Reply-To: <000901c319de$c7ef03b0$efcb4b43@meg> Message-ID: <20030514234954.30090.qmail@web14001.mail.yahoo.com> --- Meg Justus wrote: > Kay asserts: > > On the other hand, the week before I'd tried a > sip of > > Guiness ... I shall never, quite > > *never* drink such skunk-juice again! > > Wahoo, Kay! Someone *else* who thinks Guinness > tastes like mud-flavored > syrup! My formal opinion is that Guinness is gravy. What kind of gravy, I do not speculate. But I do not like gravy, and I do not like Guinness. Those who do are welcome to drink it, but I am not among them. Raye, Australian and fond of *Australian* beer ===== raye_j at yahoo.com livejournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/windtear http://www.thejohnsens.com/index.html "It means, I'm in charge... where are you going?" - C-3PO (to R2D2), 'Star Wars: Attack of the Clones' __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Thu May 15 00:58:20 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Aussie Beer OT: In-Reply-To: <20030514234954.30090.qmail@web14001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030514165524.E73007-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Wed, 14 May 2003, Raye Johnsen wrote: > --- Meg Justus wrote: > > Kay asserts: > > > On the other hand, the week before I'd tried a sip of > > > Guiness ... I shall never, quite *never* drink such > > > skunk-juice again! > > > > Wahoo, Kay! Someone *else* who thinks Guinness > > tastes like mud-flavored > > syrup! > > My formal opinion is that Guinness is gravy. What > kind of gravy, I do not speculate. But I do not like > gravy, and I do not like Guinness. Those who do are > welcome to drink it, but I am not among them. Well, this makes four of us. I tried and tried when I was going to a lot of Celtic traditional music shows to learn to like Guinness because that's what my friends all drank. I never could. It's nasty stuff, at least to me. I like Japanese beer, but what I really like is kalimoxtos. This is a Basque drink. You take cheapish red wine and Coca-cola and a twist of lemon. Or rum sours, or cosmopolitans. ~malfoy :) who now wants to go drinking... ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From WaWenri at aol.com Thu May 15 01:15:35 2003 From: WaWenri at aol.com (WaWenri at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:15:35 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom and nudity Message-ID: <17f.1b156af6.2bf43627@aol.com> Paula Lieberman writes: > > Who's William Bennett? He is a person who wrote about virtue (he was in favor of it) and had a failing, in his case gambling. Is a smoker who crusades against dunk driving, necessarily wrong about the drunk driving? > And if you didn't fit or transgressed.... "honor killings" still occur, even > in the USA. I wouldn't call that :"enlarged your life." Nepotism etc. > still exist. I thing these should be treated as the British in India treated Suttee. "It is your custom to burn widows. It is ours to hang men who kill women. You build priors, we'll build gallows." > > Bill Wenrich --------________--------________-------- From jwreynold at earthlink.net Thu May 15 01:23:59 2003 From: jwreynold at earthlink.net (James Reynolds) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:23:59 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2373 - 19 msgs In-Reply-To: <200305142105.h4EL54r5019155@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <85FFB5A0-866B-11D7-A29E-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> > > > On Wednesday, May 14, 2003 4:16 AM, James M. BRYANT, G4CLF > wrote: > >> To bring this down to the basics - taxation - >> I do not want to fuel the Socialist v Libertarian >> debate as I have too much sympathy for BOTH sides. >> >> What really irritates me, and I suspect many >> Libertarians who would actually not mind so much >> if their resources were taken to do good, is that >> too often the money is demonstrably WASTED. (snip) > > My first thought was, "Why are they laying people off? Why don't > they just slash the budgets of the individual departments and > make the department heads find the money in their budgets for > everything they want to keep? If they really cannot find fat to > cut, then the department heads can lay people off." > > My second thought was, "They have laid off 3,500 people and it > has had no effect on city services. If they lay off another > 10,000 it probably will still not have any effect on city > services.[1] That means that there were more than 13,000 people > being paid by the public purse - out of my pocket, and the > pockets of my neighbors - that were in effect doing nothing for > me or anyone else. Talk about a waste of money!" (snip) Michael, this is rotten logic. Show that laying off those hypothetical people will not effect services before you conclude that there were 13,000 people wasting your money. Jim Reynolds --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Thu May 15 01:23:43 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:23:43 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Aussie Beer OT: References: <20030514234954.30090.qmail@web14001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006501c31a78$3e84e3c0$b78171cf@puter> Raye Johnsen describes: > My formal opinion is that Guinness is gravy. What kind of gravy, I do not speculate. < Skunk. Isn't it obvious? > But I do not like gravy, and I do not like Guinness. Those who do are welcome to drink it, but I am not among them. < Hmmm. Appears that Little Egret would make out like a bandit, beer-wise, in a listie gathering. Since the less we want of the Guinness, the mooooore is left for hiiiimmmm , he won't lack for drink. Now, what *will* that leave for the rest of us? > Raye, Australian and fond of *Australian* beer < Do I have the brand name right--Foster's is the Australian beer (clear green bottle, IIRC)? And do you happen to know if the Foster's available in the US--or in the southwest of the US, at any rate--is brewed Down Under and shipped here, or is it, as I thought, brewed here under care of Fosters? It was delightful stuff. ~ Kay, who *will* now have to give that Roswell Alien Ale a try someday soon.... --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Thu May 15 01:27:50 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:27:50 -0600 Subject: [LMB] poetry ot: References: Message-ID: <006f01c31a78$d1935fc0$b78171cf@puter> Pouncer inquires: > Anybody have an opinon of "Mighty Wind" yet? < I am positively -salivating- to see it, but I fear it won't trickle down to the small town theaters. I'll probably have to wait for video. Have you seen it? How did you find it (sans spoilers, as far as possible)? ~ Kay --------________--------________-------- From raye_j at yahoo.com Thu May 15 01:41:16 2003 From: raye_j at yahoo.com (Raye Johnsen) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 17:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Aussie Beer OT: In-Reply-To: <006501c31a78$3e84e3c0$b78171cf@puter> Message-ID: <20030515004116.85144.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kay Carrasco wrote: > > Raye, Australian and fond of *Australian* beer < > > Do I have the brand name right--Foster's is the > Australian > beer (clear green bottle, IIRC)? And do you happen > to know if the > Foster's available in the US--or in the southwest of > the US, at > any rate--is brewed Down Under and shipped here, or > is it, as I > thought, brewed here under care of Fosters? It was > delightful > stuff. Fosters is *an* Australian beer, yes (a bit too sharp for my taste but WAY better, to my mind, than VB - I like Fourex and Hahn Ice) but I'm not sure whether it is brewed there or here. I believe there is a brewery in the US where it is brewed to the Australian recipe, but I also know that a lot is brewed here and exported. So I'd say that if you were told it was brewed in the US, you are very likely right. Raye ===== raye_j at yahoo.com livejournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/windtear http://www.thejohnsens.com/index.html "It means, I'm in charge... where are you going?" - C-3PO (to R2D2), 'Star Wars: Attack of the Clones' __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Thu May 15 01:48:15 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:48:15 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2373 - 19 msgs Message-ID: <031e01c31a7b$ac6f9800$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> -----Original Message----- From: James Reynolds To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Show that laying off those hypothetical people will not effect >services before you conclude that there were 13,000 people wasting >your money. Hard as I am trying to just let this thread die, I cannot resist noting that, in response to an article about how the Ontario Ministry of Health has not responded to the SARS situation as well as it might, someone wrote in and suggested that everybody who voted Tory last time should pool their nice new tax cuts and hire their own microbiologists. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Thu May 15 01:55:05 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:55:05 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Aussie Beer OT: Message-ID: <034101c31a7c$a02bd580$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Azalais Malfoy I used to like Guinness.Then I discovered St Peter's Organic English Ale. I think I must bring a case of KLB Raspberry Wheat to TorCon. Or Maudite. > This >is a Basque drink. You take cheapish red wine and Coca-cola and >a twist of lemon. That sounds oddly promising. Cosmos I cannot drink, nor any other drink which involves a lot of vodka. Kir Royales, I like, and also Sidecars. Generally speaking, put an umbrella in it and I'll try it. Pimms I adore and can rarely get here. Rum and Coke is my usual. Dark rum,with Rose's Lime. Now I want to go drinking too. If we're all posting, is it still drinking alone? Marna --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Thu May 15 01:58:39 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 17:58:39 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom, nursing, and nudity OT: In-Reply-To: <028101c31a6f$03398860$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Message-ID: <00e701c31a7d$1f85c340$f6422904@earthlink.net> > >Marna contrasted: > >> my jeans versus Padget's currently hypothetical hot pink shirt > > > >Hmmm. That word "currently" as a modifier to "hypothetical". > > You're getting WAY too easy, hon. > > Don't worry. Hot pink is not your colour. I just wanted to > see if you were paying attention > :-) I suppose it depends on how badly you make him blush. Laura --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Thu May 15 01:58:39 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 17:58:39 -0700 Subject: [LMB] poetry ot: In-Reply-To: <006f01c31a78$d1935fc0$b78171cf@puter> Message-ID: <00e801c31a7d$1fc8e6c0$f6422904@earthlink.net> > Pouncer inquires: > > > Anybody have an opinon of "Mighty Wind" yet? < > > I am positively -salivating- to see it, but I fear it won't > trickle down to the small town theaters. I'll probably have to > wait for video. Have you seen it? How did you find it (sans > spoilers, as far as possible)? What is it? I haven't heard of it. But then I don't get out much anymore. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Thu May 15 02:02:15 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 21:02:15 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom and nudity Message-ID: <035301c31a7d$a0929120$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> -----Original Message----- From: WaWenri at aol.com >He is a person who wrote about virtue (he was in favor of it) and had a >failing, in his case gambling. > >Is a smoker who crusades against dunk driving, necessarily wrong about the >drunk driving? Well, this smoker thinks not. Though it might impair their credibility if they were caught smoking during an interview, especially if they objected not only to DWI but to Drink in general. As I said before, the problem as I see it is not so much whether or not one is right, but whether or not one understands what the particular Career Limiting Moves of one's chosen profession are. Yes, that's an acronym in Ottawa: CLM. Figures. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Thu May 15 02:03:49 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 21:03:49 -0400 Subject: [LMB] poetry ot: Message-ID: <037201c31a7d$d86d9400$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Pouncer saith: >> Anybody have an opinon of "Mighty Wind" yet? < > I want to see it. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Thu May 15 02:11:47 2003 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:11:47 -0500 Subject: [LMB] mass market pb news Message-ID: <000901c31a7e$f97b1360$0500000a@oemcomputer> Since not everyone frequents Baen.com, just a reminder that _Diplomatic Immunity_ will be out in mass marker (regular) paperback size in June, and _Young Miles_ will be out in mass market in July. _Young Miles_ will be good to add to the "starter Bujold" arsenal, along with _Cordelia's Honor_ and _Borders of Infinity_, depending on taste. (Well, and _The Curse of Chalion_, natch.) Ta, L. --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Thu May 15 02:28:23 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:28:23 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Lois's signing tours In-Reply-To: <000901c31a7e$f97b1360$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <00ee01c31a81$46c19160$f6422904@earthlink.net> So it occurred to me that recently, in a message about the PoS galleys, Herself mentioned that the signing tour on the back didn't mean anything, it was a copy of the one for Curse of Chalion. And that set me to thinking about past signings in this area. Way back when _Memory_ came out, there was a signing at Third Planet in Torrance, which used to be a bookstore/comic store/gaming store, very near Karl's old apartment. We had a lovely party and trooped down there, it was wonderful. After that, they moved to a new, smaller location, and became ONLY a comics/gaming store. When _Diplomatic Immunity_ came out, there was a signing up at Dangerous Visions in Sherman Oaks, a specialty SF bookstore. A bit of a drive for us, especially as I was expecting soon, but worth it, definitely. Dangerous Visions is now out of business. There doesn't seem to be a bookstore in the area doing that sort of thing anymore. (I know Ringo's doing a tour through CA soon, and is going straight from San Diego to San Francisco) So I was wondering about maybe contacting a local bookstore - there's a new, good, Barnes & Noble - and seeing what's involved in asking them to invite her. (Karl's reaction was "oh, what local bookstore do we want to put out of business this time?") Now if this was an upcoming Baen book, I bet I could find something on the lines of official stuff on "Why Bujold is such a great author and why you should want her to visit your bookstore!" and "Who you contact to invite her". But as it isn't, I don't know where to start. I could write up the first part myself, but the 2nd I have no clue on. Anybody know? Lois? Thanks, Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Thu May 15 02:41:46 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 21:41:46 -0400 Subject: [LMB] weirdlink OT: Message-ID: <03b301c31a83$26f60080$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Religious Studies: How to Create A Golem: http://golem.plush.org/ Marna. --------________--------________-------- From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Thu May 15 02:42:27 2003 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 21:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Worth of services Re: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2373 - 19 msgs In-Reply-To: <031e01c31a7b$ac6f9800$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Message-ID: My experience in both the public and private sector with costcutting: a) there's always waste and perks in ay organization. In the private sector it's hidden better. For example, the box bought at the local hockey arena supposedly to entertain clients but -- strangely enough -- is always occupied by senior management during the playoffs and for major concerts. These items are very difficult to remove. b) the hidden stuff gets cut first. The roof isn't repaired for a few more years, the potholes aren't filled. The fact that the roof then leaks and destroys documents and requires emergency repair, and the road reconstruction costs far more over the entire lifecycle than regular maintenance -- that doesn't matter. c) Cutting means safety concerns are minimized. See potholes above, but also ensuring machinery is checked regularly and moving parts are replaced at the end of a reasonable lifecycle. And training is skimped. Employees usually pay for this with their lives or limbs. Employers pay for it through higher Workers' Compensation payments or insurance premiums. d) Constant cutting means employees get overworked. Most, who are not stupid, leave or get pissed off or get burned out, and spend the energy and interest they have outside work or in finding a new job. This isn't to say there aren't opportunities to do things better. But the management books I've read say that arbitrary massive cuts (unless you're simply cutting a whole product line/service) tend to be counterproductive. On Wed, 14 May 2003, Marna Nightingale wrote: > Hard as I am trying to just let this thread die, I cannot resist noting > that, in response to an article about how the Ontario Ministry of Health has > not responded to the SARS situation as well as it might, someone wrote in > and suggested that everybody who voted Tory last time should pool their nice > new tax cuts and hire their own microbiologists. -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire --------________--------________-------- From Pouncer at aol.com Thu May 15 04:01:09 2003 From: Pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 23:01:09 EDT Subject: [LMB] poli parties ot: Message-ID: <109.2399b99e.2bf45cf5@aol.com> Marna: > >someone wrote in and suggested that everybody who voted Tory last time ... Don't you people have any Whigs? I mean, crown loyalism is fine. (Miles and Gregor no doubt think so, ObBujold) but there are time-tested political philosophies that fall between "divine wisdom and powers of royalty" and "mob rule". There are even experiments in something called a TWO party system. The majority shifts from time to time. Kinda a radically progressive notion, I'm sure; but you might find you like it. --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Thu May 15 04:24:02 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] poli parties ot: In-Reply-To: <109.2399b99e.2bf45cf5@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030514202312.U99655-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Wed, 14 May 2003 Pouncer at aol.com wrote: > There are even experiments in something called a TWO party > system. The majority shifts from time to time. Kinda a radically > progressive notion, I'm sure; but you might find you like it. As a lifelong American, all I can say is, I wish I knew what that was like! ~malfoy, :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Wed May 14 22:52:39 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:52:39 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Buffy Bye-Bye Way OT: In-Reply-To: <009901c319ba$0aa43150$d18dd70c@MainComputer> Message-ID: <3EC27457.22539.1BA5E56@localhost> Countryboy wrote: > This is way off topic and if someone wants to exile me I will > understand. I live in the MW with no one to talk to about it. I've > lost way to many shows. I'm going to go into withdrawal. > > Countryboy(Allen) - trying to figure out what he is going to watch > now. There are lots of websites, ranging from drooling fanboy boards to the bitterly sarcastic Television Without Pity forums. (I find the latter uncomfortably savage at times, but they do have a strict no-spoiler policy... which, I now realize, is about to become moot.) (Hmm - were you onlist the last time I posted a link to my Defender essays? If not, you can find them at .) Just hit Google and take your pick. At the beginning of the last TV season I had five shows I intended to watch regularly: BtVS, Angel, Firefly, Farscape, and (out of place, perhaps) Gilmore Girls. Three of them have, or are about to, come to an end. I've just added Everwood to the list as a replacement (appealing to the same part of me as GG), but I don't see much else that looks good. Sigh. I guess I'll have to fall back on my movie (1200 titles) and book (>5000 volumes) collections. Life is unpleasant sometimes . Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Thu May 15 04:38:17 2003 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 23:38:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] poli parties ot: In-Reply-To: <109.2399b99e.2bf45cf5@aol.com> Message-ID: I presume this was with a heavy dose of irony? On Wed, 14 May 2003 Pouncer at aol.com wrote: > Marna: > > >someone wrote in and suggested that everybody who voted Tory last time ... > > Don't you people have any Whigs? Yup. We call them Grits (or Liberals when being extra-formal). > I mean, crown loyalism is fine. (Miles and Gregor no doubt > think so, ObBujold) but there are time-tested political > philosophies that fall between "divine wisdom and powers > of royalty" and "mob rule". And the Bloc Quebecois is at 90 degrees from both those poles. > There are even experiments in something called a TWO party > system. The majority shifts from time to time. Kinda a radically > progressive notion, I'm sure; but you might find you like it. We have six "mass-market" ones (Liberals, NDP, PC, Alliance, BQ, Green) -- ignoring the Communist Party of Canada, CPC-ML, Rhinoceros, the floating yogis, and others. -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Wed May 14 22:52:39 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:52:39 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Buffy Bye-Bye OT: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3EC27457.16235.1BA5D9B@localhost> lorraine fletez-brant wrote: > I heard on NPR this afternoon a fascinating segment on Buffy research. > I expected to hear your name, Jim , because it was about > college professors who integrate Buffy into their lectures, get > together to discuss philosophy, but end up talking Buffy-chat, only to > realize that they are philosophizing, after all! Sadly, there is very little that can be done to integrate Buffy into a math lecture (although there've been some statistical studies done on population models for vampires). Most of the references to math on the show have to do with the ineptitude at math of most of the characters (with the obvious exceptions of Willow and Giles). > There is apparently > something like an International Buffy Congress Effect> to meet and present papers on Buffy topics. The interviewer > spoke with one professor who said that when the last episode runs > (tonight, was it?), the canon will be complete, and THEN the > researchers can really go after it indepth. There's a lot of stuff out there; professors of literature, feminist studies, and - in one odd case - military science have written about BtVS. There've been at least three scholarly books on the subject as well. > Sorry your favorite show is about to end. I know how bad that s*cks! I > was so mad when TNG and Voyager went off the air. 7 years is just NOT > enough! I hope they do justice to the finale for you! I'm not too downhearted; the show has been going downhill for some years now. I find the most solace in rewatching my DVDs of the first three seasons (although I do intend to complete the set when the other seasons become available). Anyway, it looks as though there's a chance at a bang-up finale next week. I don't want to sound too harsh about the last couple of seasons; at least five episodes in those seasons rate five stars from me (putting them in the top 10% of BtVS episodes). Unfortunately - and in contrast to earlier seasons - they weren't followed up on adequately. (The second-season episode "Passion" - to my mind, the best BtVS episode of all - had overt impact on later episodes through the middle of season three. The sixth-season episode "Dead Things", which I found very powerful, was followed up by one hug, two jokes, and one sarcastic comment in the very next episode, and nothing else came of it. [Well, there was a forced cameo a few episodes later, but it had little emotional impact.]) I won't mourn it too much. "Angel" has been renewed, and I can still hope - not immediately, but maybe a few years from now - for the proposed Faith/Spike spinoff. Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Thu May 15 04:46:02 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:46:02 -0700 Subject: : Re: [LMB] OT: rambunctious hair (was re: Song of Solomon) Message-ID: From: Damien Sullivan: >On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 10:38:12PM +0200, Joy W. wrote: >>I don't know about a compliment, but my hair is certainly rambunctious. >>We >>joke that it's going to break away and form its own government... >Rebel Split End: "We must destroy the Death Shears now, or Darth Sabeau >will destroy us once and for all!"< >"Luke, I am your follicle."< ROFLMAO!! Thank you both for a much needed laugh tonight! Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu May 15 04:50:52 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:50:52 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Buffy Bye-Bye OT: In-Reply-To: <3EC27457.16235.1BA5D9B@localhost> References: <3EC27457.16235.1BA5D9B@localhost> Message-ID: <20030515035052.GA13167@ofb.net> On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 04:52:39PM -0500, jparish at siue.edu wrote: > population models for vampires). Most of the references to math on the > show have to do with the ineptitude at math of most of the characters > (with the obvious exceptions of Willow and Giles). Not to mention Joss's inability to get his dates and vampire ages to match. "Spike is almost 200 years old." -> 120. Aargh! -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu May 15 04:53:11 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:53:11 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Buffy Bye-Bye Way OT: In-Reply-To: <3EC27457.22539.1BA5E56@localhost> References: <009901c319ba$0aa43150$d18dd70c@MainComputer> <3EC27457.22539.1BA5E56@localhost> Message-ID: <20030515035311.GB13167@ofb.net> On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 04:52:39PM -0500, jparish at siue.edu wrote: > At the beginning of the last TV season I had five shows I intended to > watch regularly: BtVS, Angel, Firefly, Farscape, and (out of place, > perhaps) Gilmore Girls. Three of them have, or are about to, come to > an end. I've just added Everwood to the list as a replacement Firefly's gone, Buffy's going, Farscape's dying? I watched Gilmore Girls when I could, but this season it's conflicted with Buffy so I have no clue. First seaons was really fun, I remember wondering about second season. I suspect past some point the stories and characters just get old. See Dawson's Creek. OTOH Stargate SG-1 looks like it may have been robust, although I've seen fans bemoaning sixth season. > that looks good. Sigh. I guess I'll have to fall back on my movie (1200 > titles) and book (>5000 volumes) collections. Life is unpleasant Yeek! -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Thu May 15 04:55:06 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:55:06 -0700 Subject: [LMB] A Writer's case of Egoboo Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:53:27 -0400 "Patricia A. Swan" delights with the news: >I was telling Jerrie Adkins about this on the phone Monday evening, and she said that I *had* to share this with y'all since you would like to follow *my* Adventures in Writing just like you follow Lois's, Charlie Finlay's, Pat Wrede's, etc.< You GO girl! That's great to hear. Let us know how it progresses. It is certainly music to a writer's ear to hear that an editor WANTS to read something...congrats! I loved the Daniel Jackson character from the movie so much. I was always a sucker for the linguist geek and the actor didn't hurt the eyes, either ! Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper who cheers when the linguists win the field _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Thu May 15 05:03:24 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:03:24 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Aussie Beer OT: References: <034101c31a7c$a02bd580$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Message-ID: <004401c31a96$ef0c8ea0$568171cf@puter> Marna Nightingale asks: > Now I want to go drinking too. If we're all posting, is it still drinking alone? < Of course not. We're simply virtually partying. Can I get you anything while I'm up? Glass of wine? Bottle of California Common? Oh, wait. This is *Marna*. Nice home-made Porter, dearie? It's my only bottle, but for *you*.... ~ Kay, still trying to settle back down after the season ender of "The West Wing." Egads. Stunning.... --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Thu May 15 05:02:43 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:02:43 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Buffy Bye-Bye Way OT: In-Reply-To: <3EC27457.22539.1BA5E56@localhost> Message-ID: > At the beginning of the last TV season I had five shows I intended to > watch regularly: BtVS, Angel, Firefly, Farscape, and (out of place, > perhaps) Gilmore Girls. For me the only US show I have found to be decent recently is Scrubs. Well worth watching. >Sigh. I guess I'll have to fall back on my movie (1200 > titles) and book (>5000 volumes) collections. Have you ever noticed that even when you have 12-1500 titles in a movie collection there is still nothing you want to watch available :-0) On the upside you can spend hours browsing to try and find something you do want to watch :-) Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Thu May 15 05:17:02 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 04:17:02 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Jewish world review Message-ID: <20030514.211721.3720.63252@webmail02.lax.untd.com> I'd like to second Michael B's recommendation of Jewish World Review. It's a whole lot more than opinion and commentary--there's really interesting articles about Jewish religious and social issues. I quite enjoy stopping by about once a month or so. www.jewishworldreview. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Thu May 15 05:20:10 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 00:20:10 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Nudity Message-ID: <171.1ea23562.2bf46f7a@aol.com> In a message dated 5/14/2003 12:39:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: I agree with that! I doubt the kid was potty-trained (I have been told that to say "housebroken" in reference to a child is bad taste) either. Also, I don't want anybody leaving skid marks on my furniture, although I don't have any real hangups about nudity. Just cleanliness. That's _other people's_ nudity I don't mind. I'm past the age of wanting to bare all, or even very much, myself. Mary > Well, I donno. The thing that I saw that most recently strongly offended > me was two Central American women, obviously very recently in the U.S., > allowing their bare-bottomed two-year old boy to run around the grocery > store. > > On the other hand, I think the yuk factor was mostly about sanitation. > Maybe a lot of these issues are more around sanitation than mores (like > the soap commercial about the bus used by nudists...) > > My mother's rationale for keeping breastfeeding private was that it needed > to be a quiet, calming episode for the baby. Makes sense to me. Somehow, > she never seemed to have a need to breastfeed in public, as busy as she > was. Umm, maybe it's a planning issue? --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Thu May 15 05:22:48 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 04:22:48 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on selfishness Message-ID: <20030514.212348.3720.63354@webmail02.lax.untd.com> Eric Oppen claims that he's the list's token libertarian. No, you're not. Kirsten (Lutheran Libertarian Librarian) Edwards N.B. And for my money, the way you phrased it, you're both selfish So, what? Who expects political philosphy to be a roadmap for individual virtue? "_Why_ is it "selfish" of me to want to keep something I have when someone else asks for it---but _not,_ apparently, selfish for this other person to demand something of mine on no basis other than that he or she wants it?" ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Thu May 15 05:37:22 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 04:37:22 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: Slandering poets OT: Message-ID: <20030514.213806.3720.63524@webmail02.lax.untd.com> Peter Newman wrote: "[snipped] most people find poetry so uninteresting that it takes a subject as exciting as sex to get them interested in anything said in poetry." I'd like to add the caveat "modern poetry" to that. Incomprensible, unstructured, navel-gazing drivel that the average reasonably well- educated person finds utterly tiresome. But it was not always so, as fellows like Longfellow and Kipling can attest. Kirsten Edwards ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Thu May 15 05:40:03 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 00:40:03 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2374 - 21 msgs Message-ID: <9f.385eea7c.2bf47423@aol.com> In a message dated 5/14/2003 8:51:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Do you think Ekaterin is one of those women who make the same bad choices over and over again? I don't--but then, I think Miles is great. Being brilliant covers a multitude of sins. And somehow he never seems to start out intending to get into a mess. The main difference seems to be that Miles is a willful little monster who is so convinced he knows best that he goes to extremes to get his way, telling himself that it is for others' "own good", but when this is pointed out to him (or pounded into his head in one way or another), he sees his mistakes and rectifies them as best he can. Also, he seems to have a self-sacrificing quality that Tien lacks, as shown at Kiril Island and other places. Mary > > One bad lapse of judgment??? One mistake?!?!?! I love Miles, but he could > be a poster child for potentially poor > judgments and resulting collateral damage. Innocent Bystanders Beware!! He > made a lifetime habit out of "lie now, make it > be true later"... Is there such a thing as retroactive honesty? The only > difference between Miles and Tien on this score > really is Miles usually got away with it. Tien didn't. So honor is based > on results not actions and intent?? The ends justify > the means if you pull off the desired ends? If you redeem your lie and make > it come out all shiny in the end all is forgotten? > > > Would have Tien been tempted into accepting bribery if he had not been > tying to conceal his "mutation" from the very > society that drove Miles to such extremes. For both his protection and his > son's. Are we to blanket forgive Miles and > condemn Tien for responding to almost the exact same pressure in almost the > exact same way. Twist the system to make it > come out best for me and mine. Tien didn't know he was helping with > "treason", he thought he was just doing some > financial skimming to save his family. Unethical, yes, but he was between > a rock and a hard place. Would Miles have > done less? I think not... Miles did use worthless Radioactive land to > secure a loan. Granted he "intended" to pay it back > later and he did. But we have the wonderful benefit of the insight into > Miles brain. Perhaps Tien intended to "pay back" his > bribes once his "Trade Shares" came in to redeem his honor. We will never > know. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Thu May 15 05:50:09 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 00:50:09 -0400 Subject: [LMB] RE: Freedom References: <20030508141707.G26419-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <1052432978.962.8.camel@orac> <3EBAEA3D.EEE2912F@redmaplegrove.org> <3EBAEDF9.5E02098A@redmaplegrove.org> <3EC26E76.8A25C077@erols.com> Message-ID: <084a01c31a9d$7757db60$050d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandra Haropulos" > Marna Nightingale wrote: > > > I need to replace my CS Lewis; he talks somewhere about how an offence > > against modesty, properly, must contain the intent to flaunt oneself. > > Well, I donno. The thing that I saw that most recently strongly offended > me was two Central American women, obviously very recently in the U.S., > allowing their bare-bottomed two-year old boy to run around the grocery > store. I think that that is a violation of health codes. I suspect the kids probably didn't have shoes on, either, which is also a health code violation. Calling Helga the Horrible for Health Violation enforcement.... > On the other hand, I think the yuk factor was mostly about sanitation. > Maybe a lot of these issues are more around sanitation than mores (like > the soap commercial about the bus used by nudists...) The what??!!! Sanitation and health are big issues. Impure water probably sickens and kills more people every year on the planet , than everything else combined! There was a -reason- why Helda the Horrible had the power and reach she had -- it's more -obvious- on space station, but that doesn't mean it's not as important otherwise! --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Thu May 15 05:50:23 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 04:50:23 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) Message-ID: <20030514.215119.3720.63660@webmail02.lax.untd.com> Lynnette J. wrote: " The only difference between Miles and Tien on this score [lie, now try to make it true later & make v. dangerous/hi risk choices-KAE] really is Miles usually got away with it. Tien didn't." Er, quick note: Miles usually got away with it, because he took responsiblity for his actions--Miles always knew who to blame. Tien never did. BIG difference in my book. Kirsten (It's not my fault!) Edwards ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Thu May 15 05:54:15 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 04:54:15 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on "selfishness" Message-ID: <20030514.215422.3720.63688@webmail02.lax.untd.com> Tracy writes: "It's just that wealth is symbolic shorthand for all those things in our society - and is often unrelated to the actual skill or effort expended." If by "our society" you mean, the USA, no, it's not. In fact the unheard of (historically) level of this relatedness is one of the reasons the U.S. keeps having to beat off immigrants with a stick. A Big Stick, sadly. Kirsten Edwards ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Thu May 15 06:00:11 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 01:00:11 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Slandering poets OT: Message-ID: <002c01c31a9e$dddfea20$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Kirsten Edwards To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Date: Thursday, May 15, 2003 12:39 AM Subject: [LMB] Re: Slandering poets OT: >I'd like to add the caveat "modern poetry" to that. Incomprensible, >unstructured, navel-gazing drivel that the average reasonably well- >educated person finds utterly tiresome. It is with great trepidation I argue with you about anything to do with lit, but ... If you haven't read any Wendy Cope, I need to send you some. And possibly also some Heaney. One of the primary differences between now and then as far as I can tell is that all of the really dreadful stuff from then has had the goodness to go out of print and largely out of memory. There is a winnowing effect that contributes to the 'Good Old Days" feeling. I agree with Pouncer,btw; at the moment, I think Longfellow and Kipling's niches are largely being filled by lyricists. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Thu May 15 05:59:14 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 04:59:14 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Ministries of Public Health Message-ID: <20030514.215926.3720.63732@webmail02.lax.untd.com> Marna cannot resist noting: "that, in response to an article about how the Ontario Ministry of Health has not responded to the SARS situation as well as it might, someone wrote in and suggested that everybody who voted Tory last time should pool their nice new tax cuts and hire their own microbiologists." I hope they will--much more efficient. WE don't have any shortage of them here in the U.S. :-) Now you have a NEW reason to chew your hand off! Kirsten (So you think self-restraint is overated? :-) Edwards ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Thu May 15 06:01:24 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 05:01:24 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: Miles Note Message-ID: <20030514.220129.3720.63758@webmail02.lax.untd.com> I.e I can't recall the name of the friggin' thread and am too lazy to hunt through the digest (again) to find it, much less retype it once I do... Do remember that the glowing land and making lies true retroactively took place when Miles was __18__. Not quite fair to compare to a middle-aged Tien, no? Kirsten Edwards ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Thu May 15 06:08:30 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 01:08:30 -0400 Subject: [LMB] poetry References: <20030514211619.63187.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <088601c31aa0$0758de60$050d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joyeuse" > --- Adam Ek a icrit : > Meddle not in the affairs of filkers, > for they are not subtle, and your name > > can scan to Greensleeves. > > > _Everything_ scans to Greensleeves. Greensleeves is not actually a song, it's > a musical virus. It invades your instrument and overwrites every piece you > know so that it comes out sounding like Greensleeves. If someone sends you a > piece of sheet music entitled "Greensleeves," don't play it! Delete it at > once! And send this message to everyone you know. > It's in PUBLIC DOMAIN, and that is ENORMOUSLY valuable and useful, in terms of not getting -sued- and not being -subject- to getting sued, etc. Chris Webber even wrong a song about that, which included the lines, "The tune you want is in copyright/ If you use it they're sue out your eyeballs. ...Greensleeves is your last resort...." > ;-) > Hmm, picture a drunken Ivan trying to set things to Greensleeves, or the Dendarii singing whatever to Greensleeves, or .... Ivan, oh he wants a wife, Ivan's tired of the single life, Ivan's picked up the dropped-by-Miles-fife Of "say yes to my marriage proposal!" > Joy Lanterman --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Thu May 15 06:11:51 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 05:11:51 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Aussie Beers Message-ID: <20030514.221236.3720.63859@webmail02.lax.untd.com> How's this for a sweet drink (can't recall it's name but they used to serve it at the Trellis Restaraunt in Williamsburg, VA) Drop two large sweet strawberries in the bottom of a champagne glass. Add about 1 shot Framboise, then top up with champagne. Sip. Eat the strawberries. V. nice with homemade white chocolate icecream :-) Kirsten (what I'm really lusting for is a good scotch) Edwards ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz Thu May 15 06:29:42 2003 From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:29:42 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on "selfishness" Message-ID: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F53702A7C9A5@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> No, I don't just mean the USA, I was speaking in the "global" sense. I'm not USAian. I don't think any country holds the moral high ground in effort->wealth correlations (although some are somewhat better than others). > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirsten Edwards [mailto:carbonelle at juno.com] [snip] > If by "our society" you mean, the USA, no, it's not. In fact > the unheard of (historically) level of this relatedness is > one of the reasons the U.S. keeps having to beat off > immigrants with a stick. --------________--------________-------- From 17catherines at wildmail.com Fri May 16 04:31:14 2003 From: 17catherines at wildmail.com (Catherine OShea) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:31:14 -1200 Subject: [LMB] FILK: Greensleeves Message-ID: Adam Ek said: Meddle not in the affairs of filkers, for they are not subtle, and your name > can scan to Greensleeves. And Joy ( I think) said: _Everything_ scans to Greensleeves. Greensleeves is not actually a song, it's a musical virus. It invades your instrument and overwrites every piece you know so that it comes out sounding like Greensleeves. If someone sends you a piece of sheet music entitled "Greensleeves," don't play it! Delete it at once! And send this message to everyone you know. And then this sort of happened by accident... Alas, my love, you did me wrong, You cast me off discourteously. Now I will mock you with a song, Avenge myself with poetry. Greensleeves will be your bane Greensleeves will go round your head, Greensleeves you will hear again, And your name will scan to greensleeves. My voice has broken, like my heart, Oh, why did you so enrapture me? Now I remain in a world apart But my song remains to annoy thee. Greensleeves will be your bane Greensleeves will go round your head Greensleeves you will hear again, As our story scans to greensleeves... My words were sharp, my verses stung, My poets vengeance pursued thee; But everywhere this song is sung, All other tunes elude me Greensleeves has been your bane Greensleeves went round your head Greensleeves you have heard again, For everything scans to greensleeves... My soul I bartered for this song And my artistic integrity Twas repetitious and too long And far too catchy for poetry... Greensleeves was heard in lifts Greensleeves from ice-cream vans Greensleeves in shopping malls, Its really not hard to play greensleeves... This song is getting out of hand, The verses run interminably, There is no place in all the land, Thats free of that endless melody. Greensleeves is now my bane Greensleeves goes round my head Greensleeves I cannot escape, For everything sounds like greensleeves... Well, I will pray to God on high, That he my tragedy mayst see, And that yet soon before I die, He wilt take this song from me. Greensleeves has been my bane Greensleeves has filled my head Greensleeves is everywhere, Theres no escape from greensleeves... Ah, Greensleeves, now farewell, begone, To God I pray to escape thee, These verses, have run on and on Take pity, now, and leave me. Greensleeves has been my bane Greensleeves has filled my head Greensleeves has sent me mad, There is no song but greensleeves... Catherine (running away very fast) Meet 30,000 Eco-Friendly Individuals: http://www.Care2.com/connect/ --------________--------________-------- From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Wed May 14 21:39:28 2003 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:39:28 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom and nudity Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030514162908.00a0dd20@pop3.norton.antivirus> Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper proudly proclaims: >I may not be in the least anarchistic But, Lorraine, don't you have teenagers? I thought being able to surf entropy waves was a prerequisite for the job. Jerrie, slithering away at warp speed --------________--------________-------- From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz Thu May 15 06:35:16 2003 From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:35:16 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Aussie Beers Message-ID: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F537029D2C28@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> Yum, champagne cocktails! Just the best things for summer picnics. And I've had a day and a half - shall I pour some Abelour or Glenfiddich? --------________--------________-------- From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz Thu May 15 06:38:06 2003 From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:38:06 +1200 Subject: [LMB] FILK: Greensleeves Message-ID: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F537029D2C29@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> ARRRGH! AHHH! 7 verses! 7 choruses! Gimme that scotch now! --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Thu May 15 06:57:06 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 01:57:06 -0400 Subject: [LMB] poli parties ot: Message-ID: <004101c31aa6$d1c2be40$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> -----Original Message----- From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca >I presume this was with a heavy dose of irony? It's Pouncer; presume it.:-) M. --------________--------________-------- From oppen at mycns.net Thu May 15 06:41:47 2003 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 00:41:47 -0500 Subject: [LMB] What _is_ a "mutant," anyway? Message-ID: <007c01c31aa8$b8d99140$0c560043@hppav> One thing that's bugged me about Tien Vorsoisson is that everybody seems to think that Vorzohn's Dystrophy is a _mutation._ The thing is, to me (as to most people, I think) a _mutant_ is one who is _visibly physically_ different. I think Barrayaran mores would treat VZ's Dyst as more of a disease...a disease that happened to be confined to Barrayar, but nothing more. I can see a skit about this, in the Barrayaran version of _Monty Vorthon's Flying Council:_ Tien Vorsoisson comes into the Office of Anti-Mutant Activity, looking very hangdog. Behind the desk is a Typical Snippy Bureaucratm working a crossword puzzle and listening to a football game on the wireless. TV: I---I want to turn meself in. TSB: What? TV: I want to give it up. I can't stand all the lying any more. TSB: What are you rabbiting on about? Can't you see I'm in the middle of my tea break? TV: I'm---I'm a *mumble* TSB: What? Speak up, will you? I can't hear a bloody thing over this---and Vorbarr Sultana's just about to score! *turns up radio* TV: *Gathers courage* I'm---I'm a...mutant. TSB *looking carefully at Tien* No you're not. TV: I _am_ a mutant! TSB: And I'm Mad Emperor Yuri. Sod off out of here and quit wasting my important time---I've this crossword to finish, and 42 Down's a real bad 'un...what's a nine-letter word that means "misanthropic asocial swine?" TV: Eric Oppen? TSB: Hey, that fits! Thanks a million, mate! Look, you are _not_ a bloody mutant, and this office is for Anti-_Mutant_ activity only. It's down the hall for you---try "Office of Anti-Wanker Activity." They'll see you right as rain, old chap. TV: *getting really mad* I AM SO a bloody mutant! TSB: Are not! TV: Am so! TSB: Are not--and I can prove it! Look, do you have tentacles? TV: *nonplussed* Tentacles? No---no, I don't _think_ so. TSB: There, see? Proves it! _Real_ mutants have _tentacles._ TV: They do? TSB: Course they do, mate! Now, why don't you toddle along down to the Office of Anti-Wanker activity, like a good chap? TV: But I _am a mutant!_ I have _Vorzohn's Dystrophy!_ TSB: And I have Vorpatril's racing trophy---stupid sod left it with me as a pledge for that loan I gave him last month. Useless tit doesn't show up here soonish, he may find himself looking at it in the window of the local pawnshop. TV: Really? TSB: Really. Now---are you going to pop along to the Office of Anti-Wanker Activity? TV: No. I'm a mutant. And I _insist_ on being served by the Office of Anti-Mutant Activity. TSB: _Do_ you now? *glances at clock* Hmmm...right about lunchtime, too! Convenient, that... Do you know _how_ I know for sure that you're not a mutant? TV: Nooooo....*uncertainly* (The Typical Snippy Bureaucrat pushes a button that locks all the doors, then gets up and removes his mask, revealing a hideous, horrible, inconceivably nightmarish non-Euclidean countenance. Getting up from behind his desk for the first time, we see that instead of legs, he's got long tentacles, about a dozen or so) TSB: *thick slobbery voice* Because _I am one_...and you look delicious! TV: *pounding frantically on the door, to no avail* HELLLLP! TSB: Before we serve you, there's just one thing I want you to know... TV *whimpering* What? TSB: *in a thick Southern mountain accent* You're not only _edible,_ but you sure got a pretty mouth...now squeal like a pig! (As the stage goes black, we hear a banjo playing, first the "Duelling Banjos," then segueing into the "Twilight Zone Theme") Voiceover: *screams and gasps in background* Etienne Vorsoisson. He thought that he was just going to go and get some service from his government. He got a lot more service, of a sort he never imagined he'd get...in the Twilight Zone. --Eric, who _likes_ showing off how well he can write British dialogue when he wants to---and who spends much too much time watching Britcoms. And who wonders what would have happened if Rod Serling and the Pythons had joined forces. --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Thu May 15 07:15:44 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 02:15:44 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Ministries of Public Health Message-ID: <004b01c31aa9$6b760e00$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Kirsten Edwards >I hope they will--much more efficient. WE don't have any shortage of them here in the U.S. :-) 1) Nor do we, actually; what we have is a shortage of them *working for the provincial and federal Ministries of Health*. On account of they got laid off in the last few rounds of cuts. 2) Actually, as far as public health goes, I don't think the CDC is any better off than the Ministries up here, and may be worse; wasn't there someone onlist who knew that stuff at some point? 3) If I thought that the good non-taxpayers of Ontario would actually do any such thing, I'd agree.I don't. They won't. That's sort of the point; they HAD some, at government wages, which aren't nearly as high as private sector ones, and obviously did not wish them. 4) Everytime I even *think* "free-market approach to epidemic control" my brainstem wants to eat itself. Make people pay for screening and treatment? We're quite willing to run ads actively begging people, even those with no medical coverage, to take it for free, at the moment. >Kirsten (So you think self-restraint is overated? :-) Edwards Well, no, I don't. As I said. I think it may be slightly underrated these days, as in people don't get credit for it as much as they ought as well as in people don't practice it as much as they ought. I just don't think it's a value in itself as opposed to being a value when it averts a harm. In this case, I'm unhurt and your head is somewhat less likely to explode, right? I think SUFFERING is overrated. What was that thing you were saying about competing goods? I think it fits in here somewhere. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Thu May 15 07:18:43 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 02:18:43 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cordelia vs Quin, was Re: freedom and nudity References: <000001c3190b$e18329b0$3201a8c0@zamyatin> <1052813275.990.18.camel@orac> Message-ID: <099801c31aa9$d6c84470$050d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anita Neal" > On Tue, 2003-05-13 at 16:55, David Klecha wrote: > > >From the Desk of Damien Sullivan: > > > > > > more lasting satisfaction than pleasure for itself. Pleasure for its > > > > > > own sake is slavery. Pleasure in the service of a moral community is > > > > > > freedom. > > I think perhaps it's more that pleasure for its own sake is rather > sterile. If humans are intended to exist in relationship with one > another (and with God) then actions/attitudes which turn one's attention > inward rather than outward are unproductive and ultimately lead nowhere. > Like that bit in Memory where Miles is ruminating on the fact that his > relationship with Elli has no future since she's really in love with > Naismith and has no intention of settling with him as Vorkosigan. He I thought it was that Quin's attitude towards Barrayar was "I have NO desire WHATSOEVER to be Mrs ANYBODY on that planet!" It wasn't Miles she rejected, it was the life of a Barrayaran woman she wanted nothing whatsoever to do with. She joined up with a space mercenary force in the first place presumably for adventure and a life of seeing the galaxy and earning her way.... the attitudes towards women on Barrayar as seen by non-Barrayars were that they were wives and daughters, exercised no direct power of their own, were subject to a bunch of stupid bigoted restrictions, had to have the permission of menfolk to go out of the house even, weren't allowed into the military, etc. etc. etc. Quin -was- career military, use to risking her life, and to being in command, and to giving orders, and to questioning Stupid Stuff. On Barrayar her role had she accepted the offer of the position of Lady Vorkosigan, would have have many more restrictions than she had any interest in. Cordelia could accept the restrictions, for a number of reasons -- first, she was considerably -older- than Quin, and had risen mostly as high as she had been going to get in space exploration/space service to Beta. She had been a captain and ship's commander, and given the structure of Betan service, there wasn't really a higher level she was going to get to. And then the universe changed on her -- Beta changed its space policies, concentrating (IIRC) a lot less on exploration, and much more on -military- activities. But, Cordelia was an exploration ship captain, not someone who had joined up to be a warfighter -- unlike Quin, who had joined a commercial mercenary business. Quin wasn't in service to her country, she was a merc -- that's a major difference. Her commitment to Kline Station service, wasn't there the way Mile, Aral, and Cordelia were committed to -service- for their homes. That was the second reason -- Cordelia was committed to serving her homeland, and later, her husband's homeland -- the actions of the government of Beta with regards to Cordelia after she'd been a "guest" during wartime of Barrayar, persuaded her that she couldn't stay on Beta anymore, and that her country had turned on her. The view of the government of Beta was that given the generally vile treatment that particularly Betan women had received taken prisoner by Barrayarans -- the rapes, for example -- Cordelia had to have come at least somewhat unhinged from the presumed despicable inhumane treatment that she received. Plus, she had been at the mercy of The Butcher of Komarr, considered one of the vilest of the vile Barrayarans. For Cordelia to be defending him, she [according to Beta] had to have had Patty Hearst Syndrome brainwashing happened to her. So anyway, Cordelia -fled- to Barrayar, which she viewed as a safer and more welcoming place for her than her homeland. In the case of Quin, she had had no such problems with her home. No one was trying to stick her into psychiatric care against her will, and tell her she was deluded, drug her, show her off unwillingly as a political tool, etc. Third reason -- Aral versus Miles. As Cordelia was much older and more experienced than Quin, so too was Aral much older than Miles. Aral was a widower, with considerable tragedy in personal relationships in his life. Miles had not gone through the experiences that had tempered Aral. He hadn't seen his mother murdered before his eyes, hadn't declared personal war on a corrupt insane emperor who was a cousin -- compare the relationship of Gregor and Miles, with that of Yuri the Mad and Aral. Miles hadn't been involved with a set of squalid rumors and scandals about his personal life -- Aral had been involved in homosexual liaisons with scheming manipulators, and had been manipulated into charging his beautiful young wife with adultery, with devastating consequences when she suicided out of shame and shamed pride. Aral thereafter was a very personally emotionally wounded man. Cordelia, too, was emotionally wounded, but nowhere near to such depths -- she'd been played with and dumped, but the scandal and rumors, were nowhere as deep or devastating. Miles' vulnerabilities were very different than those of Aral, and again, Aral was a much more mature person than Miles, with a lot more tolerance and lattitude for personal issues. Fourth reason -- Duty: Cordelia had a bond with Aral in which Aral had -depended- upon her in some ways for his sanity. Her arrival on Barrayar pulled him out of passive suicidal drinking, and she was the one who decided that Aral -must- take up the position of Regent pro-offered to Aral by the Emperor. When she insisted, she was taking up at least half of that duty herself -- there was a role beyond "wife and mother domestic and social sphere" for her on Barrayar -- she had the position of in part administering to the Empire, of holding part of the power that Aral held. Yes, that wasn't true when she fled Barrayar -- but the nature of her relationship with Aral, was that she ws -not- his subordinate, she was counterpart to him, and parallel in position and power. In the relationship of Miles and Elli, Miles -was- Elli's superior. It was not a relationship of equals, it was one unequal in power, and on Barrayar, it would have been worse. On Barrayar, Cordelia was known as the woman who'd held her own in military action with Barrayar, and the woman who'd killed vicious sadistic Adm Vortuyer -- therefore, she was not some dispensible Vor miss, she was a space wolf who happened to be female -- a combination which some male Barrayarans couldn't credit, but others, were -extremely- wary of and respectful of. Quin, however, there were no such records of action of. She was an offworlder female, and not someone who Barrayarans would have run into or known of, and had to notice thereby as having any Power. > realises that much as he loves her, enjoys sex with her etc, there is > nothing there but sterility. > > > > I disagree -- to me, the issues were social and power. Miles was born into the position of Count's heir, and born to the two most powerful and respected people on Barrayar. Quin was not only a non-Barrayaran, but a female one. The position she would have held as Miles' wife there, would have been the position which Cordelia described in _Barrayar_ that Barrayar and her father in law were trying to force-fit her into -- sit there and breed lots of Vorkosigans, go shopping, go to social events.... but where Cordelia was intimately involved in government operations and the training of the next Emperor, there were no such occupations to have engaged Quin were she to have accepted Miles' proposal. She would have been stuck on-planet, with the social duties of a Vor wife, but rather less training in such things than Cordelia, who'd grown up on a planet, had had -- Kline Station wasn't a planet, and even though Betans live in domes, they're not space stations.... > > The basic premise, though, is that if you seek pleasure as an end, > > you'll always be seeking it, because it's fleeting and impermanent. > > Seek the divine, on the other hand, and not only will you Be a Better > > Person, so say the Christian traditionalists, but the pleasure you > > encounter will uplift you all the more. > Tossing a spanner, -- but don't Christians seek "the pleasure of service to the Lord"??!! for its own sake?!! > Or, to put it another way, Christians pursue the Giver rather than the > gifts. And the really odd thing is that when you do that, the gifts tend > to be thrown in free... > > TTFN, > > Anita > > > > -- > > Anita Neal > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Thu May 15 07:33:16 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 02:33:16 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom and nudity References: <20030512.170514.3720.7481@webmail02.lax.untd.com> <05d001c31931$c9fc4170$050d4b43@LAPTOP> <006901c31941$5894a0d0$6c3a0144@Laptop> Message-ID: <09b101c31aab$deba58b0$050d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pam" > Paula Asks: > > Who's William Bennett? > > Me: He's the guy who writes on virtues who recently was exposed for having > list millions of dollars gambling. He never spoke against gambling, of > course. Now he says he won't gamble anymore. But it took a public (National > TV) exposure to show that his house was as glass as any others. > IOW, he had a considerable case of hubris. Elsewhere in this thread one or more people have mentioned something about people being flawed.... but there's flawed, and then there's hubris. Someone admitting to personal imperfections when talking about how life should be lived, is a quite different situation than someone writing about virtues and pretending their own vices have never occurred/aren't relevant issues. Getting back to the topic, Aral doesn't pretend to anyone that he's never fallen into a bottle; talking to Miles after Miles returned from the Far Frozen Northlands, Aral tells Miles that he spent the whole time he'd been sent up there, drunk. Also, way back in Warrior's Apprentice, while still on Barrayar, Aral comments to or about Ivan something about why couldn't Ivan have just gone quietly into a corner or something and gotten drunk instead of getting inconveniently underfoot for Aral to trip over. Aral's commentary indicated that that was the sort of thing that Aral has had personal experience of doing. Bothari, a very flawed character, -knows- he's flawed, and looked as Cordelia as his redeemer and redeption and light to see/live/be guided by. One of the main differences between Ekaterin's first and second husbands, is the the second husband strives to do right and strives for excellence and strive to improve the universe. Ekaterin's first husband had no interest in idealism and helping others, no sense of internal obligation, no drive to excel, or do better than mediocre, no interest in saving... he was living all in the present and no concerned about making anything better, and always finding excuses to divest his family of anything that didn't provide him with whatever current pleasure/interest he felt like pursuing. He had no real respect and no real regard for anyone else, and toadied for the sake of toadying and improving his status -today-, forget about planning, saving, etc. etc. --------________--------________-------- From raye_j at yahoo.com Thu May 15 07:34:44 2003 From: raye_j at yahoo.com (Raye Johnsen) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 23:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] FILK: Greensleeves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030515063444.66906.qmail@web14002.mail.yahoo.com> --- Catherine OShea <17catherines at wildmail.com> wrote: > Adam Ek said: Meddle not in the affairs of filkers, > for they are not subtle, and your name > > can scan to Greensleeves. > > And Joy ( I think) said: > _Everything_ scans to Greensleeves. Greensleeves is > not actually a song, it's > a musical virus. It invades your instrument and > overwrites every piece you > know so that it comes out sounding like > Greensleeves. If someone sends you a > piece of sheet music entitled "Greensleeves," don't > play it! Delete it at > once! And send this message to everyone you know. > > And then this sort of happened by accident... May I please share this with my circle of friends? I'll credit you, promise! Raye ===== raye_j at yahoo.com livejournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/windtear http://www.thejohnsens.com/index.html "It means, I'm in charge... where are you going?" - C-3PO (to R2D2), 'Star Wars: Attack of the Clones' __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From iosef at gothic.net.au Thu May 15 07:56:02 2003 From: iosef at gothic.net.au (I) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:56:02 +1000 Subject: [LMB] Aussie Beer OT: In-Reply-To: <006501c31a78$3e84e3c0$b78171cf@puter> References: <20030514234954.30090.qmail@web14001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20030515164650.00b72678@mail.gothic.net.au> At 10:23 AM 15/05/2003, Kay Carrasco wrote: >Raye Johnsen describes: > > Hmmm. Appears that Little Egret would make out like a bandit, >beer-wise, in a listie gathering. Since the less we want of the >Guinness, the mooooore is left for hiiiimmmm , he won't >lack for drink. Now, what *will* that leave for the rest of us? I'll help with the Guiness, as long as its the real thing, not the made in Oz abomination. > Do I have the brand name right--Foster's is the Australian >beer (clear green bottle, IIRC)? And do you happen to know if the >Foster's available in the US--or in the southwest of the US, at >any rate--is brewed Down Under and shipped here, or is it, as I >thought, brewed here under care of Fosters? It was delightful >stuff. Fosters is a lesser Australian beer. Some is made overseas (see comment above), and some is straight export. Much of the US product is made in Australia to US requirements. The best way is to check the bottle/can. First for Made in labelling, and then for Alcohol %. If its under 5% is made for the US. Note Australian "Lite" beers are 2%-2.4%. Also a beer in a non-brown bottle was not made for the Australian market. The only time I tried the made for US product it seemed light, slightly sweet and very gassy. BTW, last AussieCon, yes Pterry was found in the bar when not on Panels. Iestyn --------________--------________-------- From iosef at gothic.net.au Thu May 15 08:06:35 2003 From: iosef at gothic.net.au (I) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:06:35 +1000 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Aussie Beers In-Reply-To: <20030514.221236.3720.63859@webmail02.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20030515170536.00b94e30@mail.gothic.net.au> At 03:11 PM 15/05/2003, Kirsten Edwards wrote: >How's this for a sweet drink (can't recall it's name but they >used to serve it at the Trellis Restaraunt in Williamsburg, VA) > >Drop two large sweet strawberries in the bottom of a champagne >glass. Add about 1 shot Framboise, then top up with champagne. >Sip. Eat the strawberries. Substitue a German Strawberry "Champagne" for mine thanks.... Iestyn --------________--------________-------- From iosef at gothic.net.au Thu May 15 08:08:01 2003 From: iosef at gothic.net.au (I) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:08:01 +1000 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Aussie Beers In-Reply-To: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F537029D2C28@PICO.staff.vuw.ac . nz> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20030515170738.00b662b0@mail.gothic.net.au> At 03:35 PM 15/05/2003, Tracy MacShane wrote: >Yum, champagne cocktails! Just the best things for summer picnics. And >I've had a day and a half - shall I pour some Abelour or Glenfiddich? Do you have an Islay? Iestyn --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Thu May 15 08:12:39 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 03:12:39 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Fw: Stupid pet tricks, or a more nefarious game.... OT: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030513152931.033d5100@in.epix.net> Message-ID: <0a4701c31ab1$5f47a410$050d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Katrina Knight" > I'm so glad my shoe-loving cat doesn't emulate this one and actually > go out stealing shoes. He confines himself to loving the shoes that > are already here - sticking his head in them, hugging them, etc. He > often sits on one shoe of a pair and puts his head in the other to > sniff the glorious smell of dirty feet. Most cats like catnip. He > likes old shoes. Yuck! > Friends had a cat that liked my -armpits-. It would try to crawl into them and then act like it was on catnip. Trying to put the cat away could be trying. Then there there was the time it tried crawling into a shirt I'd been wearing, on a New Year's Eve [changed into party clothes], and oh what a pathetic sight to see -that- wasn't, it was sucking away at the shirt and wallowing it --------________--------________-------- From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz Thu May 15 08:19:27 2003 From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 19:19:27 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Aussie Beers Message-ID: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F537029D2C2A@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> Heh, sorry, I'm a wuss, only Speyside malts for me (people keep saying they'll educate me *one day*) > -----Original Message----- > From: I [mailto:iosef at gothic.net.au] > Do you have an Islay? > > Iestyn --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Thu May 15 08:37:29 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 03:37:29 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom and nudity References: <20030513.131048.12372.7424@webmail07.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <0a5001c31ab4$d895b070$050d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirsten Edwards" > Marna writes that the definition of "pleasure" seems to be > instant gratification: > > "It would make more sense to say pleasure, happiness, satisfaction, > fulfillment, and joy." > > I must disagree, since pleasure is not the same thing as happiness > or joy (though satisfaction, yes). One's pleasure's may tend to > lead to these things (aesthetic model) even if one takes detours via > quite a bit of pain. Or it may tend *not* do so, unless one > subjects the pleasures to quite a bit of painful restraints > (Sin model? Traditionalist model? Not sure what to call it.) > Hmm. I am trying to remember the movie, and which English King it was.... I'm getting Henry II with Becket, and ??? with Sir Thomas More, confused. "Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?" was uttered by Henry, but I just cannot remember if it was Murder in the Cathedral [More] or a film about Henry II [Beckett?] in which, the king contrite after the murder and seeking to atone for his part in the death he didn't want, but had contributed to, undergoes a whipping... and shows shows -pleasure- at being whipped to atone for being the cause of the death, feeling that he -deserves- the punishment of chastisement of the flesh, for causing the death of a holy man and someone he personally respected -- had differences with, but differences caused by the victim's dedication and hewing to his beliefs, which the king made accomodations and failed to hold to the level of Faith and belief and good workds and dedication, which the murdered man had practiced. That is a sense ties back to Bothari and "blood washes away sin." On the other hand, Bothari referred to himself as Cordelia's dog, whereas in Christian philosophy, there is much allegory regarding flocks/sheeps, and -human- shepherds, but not that I'm aware of, talk of dogs as the assistant/subordinate of human shepherds. Modern shepherds in Australia and here use dogs extensively for controlling flocks of sheep, but I don't recall Biblical mention of shepherd dogs. I suppose that Bothari didn't view himself as a dog for flock minding, however, but more of a dog of war, attack-trained for offense and killing, directed by the dog's master or handler. Bothari is definitely not "free" and doesn't -want- to be -- "freedom" for him personally to deal with, is scary and involves what he knows, from others, to be Evil -- he's not equipped to operate/exist without someone -else- being is conscience and moral compass, due mainly to the damage inflicted on him by Vorrutyer. Aral tried to provide the direction to his life, but failed because Aral could not protect him against Vorrutyer and keep him out of Vorrutyer;s corrupting torturing sadistic clutch. Cordelia however got through to Bothari and at a level, where Bothari, conditioned and broken and as damaged emotionally as Vorrutyer could make him, rebelled and action to save Cordelia's life and destroy Vorrutyer. His internal compass was shot, except Cordelia got through to him. Musing more on Barrayar, the myths/history there are more regarding individuals engaged in strife other than apparently sectarian -- Yuri the Mad and his overthrow, the struggle against the Cetagandans, the two centuries of troubles, etc. > I'm with C.S. Lewis on pleasure (a Christian model, but not *the* > Christian model :-), but I thought the distinctions Kurtz drew--which > apply to quite a few religions even some non-Western ones-- > were interesting. Fascinating what gets read into it, though > --it does seem as if the divide of incomprehension goes deep. As > a Christian libertarian I find find something to appeal in both > veiws (An excercise: What do you get when either is taken to > extremes/goes bad?) > > For my fellow 'Murcan's there's the wonderful dichotomy we face > in child rearing: Tyranny in the service of freedom: We must rule The distinction there is that children are seen as not responsible for their actions and not to be treated as responsible. > our children during their green youth in order that they may be > free to do as they will when adults. (Kay Horowitz outlines the > radical--and fairly uniquely USAn philosophy--in READY OR NOT,*) > > Or the notion that self-sacrifice is something other than a > masochistic folly for wanna-be doormats (aka "why the sociobiologists keep having to tell Just So Stories about altruism :-) There's both a Miles *and* an Ekaterin moment in there, I'm sure. > Sociobiologists should be stuffed into Skinner boxes and left in them! --------________--------________-------- From mdbrazier at juno.com Thu May 15 08:01:09 2003 From: mdbrazier at juno.com (Michael D Brazier) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 02:01:09 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) Message-ID: <20030515.023843.-153341.2.mdbrazier@juno.com> On Wed, 14 May 2003 16:13:46 -0700 Damien Sullivan writes: > > Worst Thing ideas involving his children included "they're average" > and "they don't want to be Count" and "they want to be Emperor". > Did anyone include "they want to be Miles, but can't pull it off"? _Mirror Dance_ *is* that story. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From dtilque at nwlink.com Thu May 15 08:13:50 2003 From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 00:13:50 -0700 Subject: [LMB] poetry References: <20030514211619.63187.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> <088601c31aa0$0758de60$050d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <009901c31ab1$89adace0$54aeadcf@nwlink.com> Paula Lieberman performed an arpeggio on a keyboard and produced: > Hmm, picture a drunken Ivan trying to set things to > Greensleeves, or the Dendarii singing whatever to > Greensleeves, or .... ... Enrique setting his dissertation to Greensleeves or ... -- Dan Tilque --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Thu May 15 08:58:06 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 00:58:06 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Aussie Beer OT: In-Reply-To: <034101c31a7c$a02bd580$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> References: <034101c31a7c$a02bd580$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Message-ID: <3EC3488E.3080106@lvhot.org> Marna Nightingale wrote: > That sounds oddly promising. Cosmos I cannot drink, nor any > other drink which involves a lot of vodka. > Kir Royales, I like, and also Sidecars. Generally speaking, put > an umbrella in it and I'll try it. Pimms I adore and can rarely > get here. > Rum and Coke is my usual. Dark rum,with Rose's Lime. Reminds me to get a bottle of that really nice Venezuelan Rum. > Now I want to go drinking too. If we're all posting, is it > still drinking alone? Err. Alone together, I think. > Marna Drinks with umbrellas? Hmmm. Robert --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Thu May 15 09:01:31 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 01:01:31 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Aussie Beers In-Reply-To: <20030514.221236.3720.63859@webmail02.lax.untd.com> References: <20030514.221236.3720.63859@webmail02.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <3EC3495B.4030901@lvhot.org> Kirsten Edwards wrote: > Drop two large sweet strawberries in the bottom of a champagne > glass. Add about 1 shot Framboise, then top up with champagne. > Sip. Eat the strawberries. > V. nice with homemade white chocolate icecream :-) > Kirsten (what I'm really lusting for is a good scotch) Edwards I probably can't help, I tend to keep "good enough" scotch around, plus the local whiskey. And I seem to be lacking the customary bottle of champagne\\\\\\\\\\ sparkling wine in the fridge. Robert --------________--------________-------- From iosef at gothic.net.au Thu May 15 09:03:17 2003 From: iosef at gothic.net.au (I) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 18:03:17 +1000 Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <0a5001c31ab4$d895b070$050d4b43@LAPTOP> References: <20030513.131048.12372.7424@webmail07.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20030515180140.00b70ea0@mail.gothic.net.au> At 05:37 PM 15/05/2003, Paula Lieberman wrote: >That is a sense ties back to Bothari and "blood washes away sin." > >On the other hand, Bothari referred to himself as Cordelia's dog, whereas in >Christian philosophy, there is much allegory regarding flocks/sheeps, >and -human- shepherds, but not that I'm aware of, talk of dogs as the >assistant/subordinate of human shepherds. Modern shepherds in Australia >and here use dogs extensively for controlling flocks of sheep, but I don't >recall Biblical mention of shepherd dogs. I suppose that Bothari didn't >view himself as a dog for flock minding, however, but more of a dog of war, >attack-trained for offense and killing, directed by the dog's master or >handler. For me this had echos back to the hound of Ulster more than anything else. What do you think Kerr? Iestyn --------________--------________-------- From rmacdonald at microd.com Thu May 15 09:36:07 2003 From: rmacdonald at microd.com (Richard Macdonald) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 04:36:07 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Aussie Beer OT: References: <20030515004116.85144.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EC35177.6AD35CEE@microd.com> Raye Johnsen wrote: > > exported. So I'd say that if you were told it was > brewed in the US, you are very likely right. Actually Canada. -- Richard A. Macdonald. CPA/EA SSG (Ret), USA, ADA 16P34 Dedicated follower of Fr Luca Paccioli, Master Juggler. Delenda est Carthago -- Cato the Elder --------________--------________-------- From pnewman at gci.net Thu May 15 09:44:21 2003 From: pnewman at gci.net (Peter Newman) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 00:44:21 -0800 Subject: [LMB] An Aside on Selfishness References: <200305142105.h4EL54r5019155@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EC35365.9020209@gci.net> Brian Hurt wrote > (Brian's rule of status reports- the amount of real > work done by an individual is inversely related to the length of their > status reports). ObBujold: The elderly Imperial Auditor whose reports were two page handwritten, in bad penmanship, flimsies and who insisted that anything worth telling could be told in that length. --------________--------________-------- From mckeownb at optusnet.com.au Thu May 15 09:54:47 2003 From: mckeownb at optusnet.com.au (Beatrice McKeown) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 18:54:47 +1000 Subject: [LMB] OT: we lost the fight Message-ID: <004401c31abf$a4f10340$317831d2@Beatrice> Radar died quietly in his sleep this afternoon curled up on the sofa next to Michial who then had the devastating task of rushing him to the vet and then phoning me at work. We are both distraught although we know that we had won all of the battles possible and were on a losing curve. We will always remain truly grateful to Aaron our vet who helped and supported us through all our crises and helped keep him alive and happy for 14 months more than was expected --------________--------________-------- From dtilque at nwlink.com Thu May 15 09:29:25 2003 From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 01:29:25 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Cordelia vs Quin, was Re: freedom and nudity References: <000001c3190b$e18329b0$3201a8c0@zamyatin> <1052813275.990.18.camel@orac> <099801c31aa9$d6c84470$050d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <010d01c31abc$18e5e800$54aeadcf@nwlink.com> Paula Lieberman performed an arpeggio on a keyboard and produced: > > Cordelia could accept the restrictions, for a number of > reasons -- first, she was considerably -older- than Quin, Nitpick: Cordelia was not considerably older than Quinn at the relevant times. During SoH, Cordelia was 34 (maybe 35 by the end of it). Miles and Quinn's relationship started in Quinn's early 30s and extended to her mid-to-late 30s. -- Dan Tilque --------________--------________-------- From iosef at gothic.net.au Thu May 15 10:34:56 2003 From: iosef at gothic.net.au (I) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 19:34:56 +1000 Subject: [LMB] OT: we lost the fight In-Reply-To: <004401c31abf$a4f10340$317831d2@Beatrice> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20030515193430.00b6a738@mail.gothic.net.au> At 06:54 PM 15/05/2003, Beatrice McKeown wrote: >Radar died quietly in his sleep this afternoon curled up on the sofa next to >Michial who then had the devastating task of rushing him to the vet and then >phoning me at work. >We are both distraught although we know that we had won all of the battles >possible and were on a losing curve. Hugs and good thoughts. Iestyn --------________--------________-------- From divyasatyam at satyam.net.in Thu May 15 11:17:20 2003 From: divyasatyam at satyam.net.in (Divya) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:47:20 +0530 Subject: [LMB] OT: I'm back References: <200305141017.h4EAHNr5016778@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <004901c31acb$2bd66520$fb7bd2d2@yourveftt5u6s3> Hello all, This is just to say that I'm back from a fantastic vacation in Greece. I did pass through the UK but caught a nasty flu type bug and missed meeting any of the UK listies :-( Especially sorry to have missed Mike Bernardi, whose birthday was during the week I was there - sorry Mike, I was just too miserable to crawl out of bed. Hope you had a great time, and best wishes for a wonderful year. Chronia polla, as the Greeks say! I've uploaded a handful of photos from my digital camera to the web - http://photos.yahoo.com/dibsgreece Still trying to catch up on all of last month's mail - did I miss anything big? Any excerpts from _Paladin of Souls_ posted? cheers, Divya --------________--------________-------- From divyasatyam at satyam.net.in Thu May 15 11:29:21 2003 From: divyasatyam at satyam.net.in (Divya) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:59:21 +0530 Subject: [LMB] Discount at Fictionwise for LMB books References: <200305130156.h4D1uXr5009271@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <005801c31acc$d9603f80$fb7bd2d2@yourveftt5u6s3> Hello all, Fictionwise notified me that they have an offer going where Buywise club members get an additional 30% off for all titles published directly by them. This includes several of LMB's books, including the bundle that includes Falling Free, Shards of Honor, Barrayar, The Warrior's Apprentice and the Vor Game. http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook1277.htm If you are a Fictionwise customer, consider signing up for Buywise. If you haven't tried them before, I strongly recommend them - not just for Lois's books, but for their fine selection of ebooks in most formats, and generally the best prices online. cheers, Divya --------________--------________-------- From RosinaRowantree at aol.com Thu May 15 12:46:07 2003 From: RosinaRowantree at aol.com (RosinaRowantree at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 07:46:07 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: freedom and nudity Message-ID: <1e1.8f9da85.2bf4d7ff@aol.com> Paula muses: "Hmm. I am trying to remember the movie, and which English King it was.... I'm getting Henry II with Becket, and ??? with Sir Thomas More, confused. "Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?" was uttered by Henry, but I just cannot remember if it was Murder in the Cathedral [More] or a film about Henry II [Beckett?] in which, the king contrite after the murder and seeking to atone for his part in the death he didn't want, but had contributed to, undergoes a whipping... and shows shows -pleasure- at being whipped to atone for being the cause of the death, feeling that he -deserves- the punishment of chastisement of the flesh, for causing the death of a holy man and someone he personally respected -- had differences with, but differences caused by the victim's dedication and hewing to his beliefs, which the king made accomodations and failed to hold to the level of Faith and belief and good workds and dedication, which the murdered man had practiced." If Henry was played by Peter O'Toole and Becket (Archbishop - Beckett is the playwright) by Richard Burton, then you're thinking of "Becket" from the Jean Anouilh play. Made in 1964/5, just at the time we were doing the play for French A-Levels. But in our view nowadays Becket might have been "dedicated" but he was not a force for freedom and justice - the cause over which they finally quarrelled was whether priests who raped and murdered should be subject to the law of the land or the law of the Church. Becket's stand - that they were God's and should not face trial in Henry's courts - is not that dissimilar from the position the Catholic Church has taken over some of its wayward priests much more recently. Good Old Henry II gave us common law and the start of real justice in England. On Bothari, Paula continues: "On the other hand, Bothari referred to himself as Cordelia's dog, whereas in Christian philosophy, there is much allegory regarding flocks/sheeps, and -human- shepherds, but not that I'm aware of, talk of dogs as the assistant/subordinate of human shepherds." The only Christian references that immediately spring to mind regarding dogs is: "Deliver my soul from the sword: my darling from the power of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth: thou has heard me also from the horns of unicorns", "For many dogs are come about me..." And of course the dogs who ate Jezebel after her fall from grace. It seems that Judaism didn't have a high opinion of dogs - unlike say the Persians. If Bothari is a dog, you could say that Cordelia was delivered from his power, and that henceforth he was her dog. Rosina --------________--------________-------- From jwreynold at earthlink.net Thu May 15 13:02:38 2003 From: jwreynold at earthlink.net (James Reynolds) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:02:38 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2376 - 20 msgs In-Reply-To: <200305150620.h4F6K4r5021628@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <1F599D2C-86CD-11D7-B46B-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> > Marna cannot resist noting: "that, in response to an article > about how the Ontario Ministry of Health has not responded to > the SARS situation as well as it might, someone wrote in and suggested > that everybody who voted Tory last time should pool their nice > new tax cuts and hire their own microbiologists." > > I hope they will--much more efficient. WE don't have any shortage of > them here in the U.S. :-) (Snip) Kirsten, if private industry is so wonderfully efficient, why does the U. S. government need to keep bailing it out? Chrysler under Iacocca, the airlines (who keep getting huge subsidies but don't change their losing ways), et alia. Just asking. *** Jim Reynolds --------________--------________-------- From labmousie at hotmail.com Thu May 15 13:13:40 2003 From: labmousie at hotmail.com (annie mouse) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:13:40 -0400 Subject: [LMB] An Aside on Selfishness Message-ID: Brian Hurt wrote >(Brian's rule of status reports- the amount of real work done by an individual is inversely related to the length of their status reports). haha, I like that! =) I *wist* someone would tell this to my research advisor. I would be ever so grateful ;). mousie *..*_~ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --------________--------________-------- From pnewman at gci.net Thu May 15 13:23:32 2003 From: pnewman at gci.net (Peter Newman) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 04:23:32 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Tien and Shame (was freedom and nudity) References: <200305151101.h4FB1Ar5022830@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EC386C4.7030308@gci.net> Paula Lieberman" wrote > Ekaterin's first husband had no interest in > idealism and helping others, no sense of internal obligation, no drive to > excel, or do better than mediocre, no interest in saving... he was living > all in the present and no concerned about making anything better, and always > finding excuses to divest his family of anything that didn't provide him > with whatever current pleasure/interest he felt like pursuing. He had no > real respect and no real regard for anyone else, and toadied for the sake of > toadying and improving his status -today-, forget about planning, saving, > etc. etc. But how much of Tien's lack of interest in saving for the future, and how much of his activities at short term improvement were predicated on his possible thoughts of suicide before he could make it to the long term? His brother did it and Ekaterin was afraid that he might. It seems to me that Tien regarded his Vorzohns dystrophy as something that he had to pay to cure now, before any symptoms could emerge and without letting anyone know. It seems odd to me that Tien is considered unforgivable while Bothari, who did far worse, is forgiven. Tien was just trying to protect his name and his honor (although his actions don't demonstrate much honor). It seems to me that Barrayar is, at least partially, a shame culture, not a guilt culture. It is not so much what you do as what you are known to have done. Barrayar is becoming less of a shame culture but the Cetagandans are still a shame culture. [I'm not asserting that a guilt culture is better, simply commenting that Barrayar seems to be more focused on guilt and less on shame, perhaps because of the Vorkosigan influence. YMMV] --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Thu May 15 13:51:14 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 07:51:14 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Chalionverse Religion In-Reply-To: <48.1cb13a2f.2bf3326f@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030515074748.02f1ba00@mail.iqcisp.com> At 01:47 AM 5/14/2003 -0400, CatMtn at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 5/13/2003 8:41:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > >I'm just rereading CoC for the ?th time, and I don't think anyone in it is >what we would usually define as "free" except possibly Cazaril before the >soldier dropped the gold coin. And he was desperately looking for a way to be >less free and more fed. How could people who were so dependent on the whims >of everyone who outranked them, even of their rather whimsical gods, be free? > I don't mean that it would be a bad life, just not a very free one. And it >seemed like the higher the rank, the less the freedom. I know, man was >supposed to have free will, and did make his own choices. However, with a >feudal government, curses possible, death miracles, privilege, power, and >considerably more than a dash of theocracy, it was not a free society in any >of the kingdoms described in any detail. I must admit that as fond as I am of Ista and co., the casual mention toward the end that the military orders of the Son and Daughter were going to be put under the personal control of the monarch got me less of a "hooray!" and more of a dull sense of foreboding. One of those things that could come back and bite their descendants on the posterior sometime when a not-so-good Roy or Royina is in charge and an independent outside authority to create a balance of power would be a damn handy thing. Louann --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Thu May 15 14:41:19 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 07:41:19 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Aussie Beer OT: References: <20030515004116.85144.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> <3EC35177.6AD35CEE@microd.com> Message-ID: <005001c31ae7$ab098040$3e8171cf@puter> Richard Macdonald corrected: >> Raye Johnsen wrote: >> exported. So I'd say that if you were told it was brewed in the US, you are very likely right. << > Actually Canada. < Hmmm, perhaps they have several North American breweries, shipping to different parts of the country? I seem to have not made it clear, though. I had two beers at the party--one a Foster's, the other Fat Tire--and had glanced at the labels. The one in the clear green bottle said brewed in San Antonio, and I *thought* I remembered that one was the Fosters (which is why I asked). But I could be wrong. Fat Tire is definitely brewed in Texas; whether the Foster's is as well, I am unsure. Let's try this: Richard, is the Foster's you get packaged in a clear green bottle, straight cylinder shape? Pry-off, not twist-off lid? Black and white label? ~ Kay, who's now *really* confused! --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Thu May 15 14:58:44 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 07:58:44 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Subsidizing Transportation OT: References: <1F599D2C-86CD-11D7-B46B-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006201c31aea$1aa20100$3e8171cf@puter> James Reynolds asks: > [I]f private industry is so wonderfully efficient, why does the U. S. government need to keep bailing it out? Chrysler under Iacocca < Nitpick: Chrysler was not a bail-out, it was a govt. guaranteed *loan* (line of credit, actually). It was never fully drawn down, and was paid back, in full, and early. Not so this: > the airlines (who keep getting huge subsidies but don't change their losing ways), et alia. < True, those aren't loans, that I know of; they're straight bail-outs... er, er, subsidies. But as to not changing their losing ways (as Chrysler did, under Iacocca), some of that they can't help. Travel is down, price wars are killing them. (Re some of their executives, yeah, they should be made to take the back exit at 30,000 feet, sans parachute....) But the point of keeping them flying is that their service, air transport, is essential. We cannot just say "Too bad for you, business. Go under." in these lean times, and then when the economy strengthens again, look around and find we *have no air transport*. ~ Kay, who admits she doesn't know airline stuff, but will take on *anyone* vis a vis the car business.... --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Thu May 15 15:04:46 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:04:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Re: Miles Note In-Reply-To: <20030514.220129.3720.63758@webmail02.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <20030515140446.5331.qmail@web12306.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kirsten Edwards a icrit : > > Do remember that the glowing land and making lies > true retroactively took place when Miles was __18__. I have been making a concerted effort to not hold against people things they did when they were teenagers--someone did it to me recently, and I realized how bloody annoying that can be 12 years later. I guess applying my new initive to fictional characters makes sense too... Joy Lanterman ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From iosef at gothic.net.au Thu May 15 15:21:46 2003 From: iosef at gothic.net.au (iosef at gothic.net.au) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:21:46 -0000 Subject: [LMB] Aussie Beer OT: In-Reply-To: <005001c31ae7$ab098040$3e8171cf@puter> Message-ID: <20030515142146.9F710A6BA0@visi.gothic.net.au> Kay Carrasco said: > Let's try this: Richard, is the Foster's you get packaged in a > clear green bottle, straight cylinder shape? Pry-off, not > twist-off lid? Black and white label? All the Fosters that I have seen have the traditional label of Dark Blue with a Yellow F on it. Iestyn --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Thu May 15 15:13:36 2003 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:13:36 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Aussie Beer OT: Message-ID: > From: Marna Nightingale > Date: 15 May 2003 01:55 [...] > Kir Royales, I like, and also Sidecars. Generally speaking, put an umbrella > in it and I'll try it. Pimms I adore and can rarely get here. Surely a good LMB listee should at least try something with "fruit on little sticks" [Memory ch 27 ], huh, huh ? Still, here is "Wimbledon Watcher's Cheat Pimms cup" Jane MacQuitty, The Times 2002/06/02 1 measure gin (40 % abv) 1 measure red Vermouth (eg, French or Italian or ...) half measure Bols orange curacao ( curagao ) slice each per person of fresh orange, lemon, cucumber (optional) sprig of mint, sprig of borage. Make up in a jug and leave for a hour or so so the flavours mingle. Top up jug with either ice-cold fizzy lemonade or ginger ale and serve. -- Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Thu May 15 15:29:20 2003 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:29:20 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Cordelia vs Quin, was Re: freedom and nudity Message-ID: > From: Paula Lieberman > Date: 15 May 2003 07:18 [...] > I thought it was that Quin's attitude towards Barrayar was "I have NO desire > WHATSOEVER to be Mrs ANYBODY on that planet!" It wasn't Miles she rejected, > it was the life of a Barrayaran woman she wanted nothing whatsoever to do > with. She joined up with a space mercenary force in the first place She didn't want anything to do with permanent residence dirtside on any planet. She was space-born on Kline Station, remember, "We spacers don't need planets sucking us down" [Memory last ch]. True, she also called Barrayar "pretty but dreadful". Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Thu May 15 16:40:53 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:40:53 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: freedom and nudity Message-ID: "Marty L. Adkins" teases: >Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper proudly proclaims: >>I may not be in the least anarchistic >But, Lorraine, don't you have teenagers? I thought being able to surf entropy waves was a prerequisite for the job.< Hi, Jerrie! Now, I never said that I don't *live* in anarchy ; I said that I'm not an anarchist! Major difference. And with teens, it may be anarchy, but the plan is a benevolent dictatorship! Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Thu May 15 16:50:21 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:50:21 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: we lost the fight Message-ID: "Beatrice McKeown" Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 18:54:47 +1000 >Radar died quietly in his sleep this afternoon curled up on the sofa next >to Michial who then had the devastating task of rushing him to the vet and then phoning me at work.< Aw, darn, Beatrice! I'm so sorry for your loss. Many hugs and hopes that the time you did share will be of comfort. Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Thu May 15 16:55:41 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:55:41 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Buffy Bye-Bye Way OT: Message-ID: jparish at siue.edu writes: Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:52:39 -0500 >At the beginning of the last TV season I had five shows I intended to watch regularly: BtVS, Angel, Firefly, Farscape, and (out of place, perhaps) Gilmore Girls. Three of them have, or are about to, come to an end. I've just added Everwood to the list as a replacement (appealing to the same part of me as GG), but I don't see much else that looks good. Sigh. I guess I'll have to fall back on my movie (1200 titles) and book (>5000 volumes) collections. Life is unpleasant sometimes . < Well, I'm glad to know my buddy isn't going to be totally in the doldrums! KayC recommends West Wing. I also recommend Law & Order, in its various iterations (that's where I went after I decided I didn't like Enterprise enough to keep watching). I read that there's a new show with a Buffy actress coming up in the fall, titled "True Calling," about a morgue pathologist who hears the voices of murder victims calling (I disremember if it's *before* they bite the dust or after). Maybe that's something that can take up the slack when the 5,000 volumes pall . Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --------________--------________-------- From lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov Thu May 15 17:12:57 2003 From: lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov (Jagoda, Lynette K) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:12:57 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Betan Politician in Spain Message-ID: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20034426@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> I am speechless! I just have figure out if my speechlessness is from delight, disbelief or being appalled. http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=50900&id=200305151004000260662 --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Thu May 15 17:15:10 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 11:15:10 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Buffy Bye-Bye Way OT: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3EC376BE.30429.CB186E@localhost> lorraine fletez-brant wrote: > I read that there's a new show with a Buffy actress coming up in the > fall, titled "True Calling," about a morgue pathologist who hears the > voices of murder victims calling (I disremember if it's *before* they > bite the dust or after). Maybe that's something that can take up the > slack when the 5,000 volumes pall . Yes, it stars Eliza Dushku (Faith on BtVS). Part of me wishes her well; part hopes the show will flop, so that she can be lured back for the Faith/Spike spinoff. (Yet another part is aware that the latter is probably a lost cause...) Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From selene at earthlink.net Thu May 15 17:14:55 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:14:55 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Aussie Beers Message-ID: <3EC3BCFF.12DD774E@earthlink.net> At 03:35 PM 15/05/2003, Tracy MacShane wrote: >>Yum, champagne cocktails! Just the best things for summer picnics. And >>I've had a day and a half - shall I pour some Abelour or Glenfiddich? Iestyn: >Do you have an Islay? I think we have all of those at home...Tell y'all what. If we find a decent place for a book party for Miss Lois in the Los Angeles Area, preferably in the Valley, we will have a Scotch-tasting party afterwards at our house. Honorable Klingon Hubby [tm] has been wanting to do one of those for a mort of years. Me? Hate Scotch. I'll be the one with the sweet stuff, the kind with umbrellas and sticks of fruit. It's strawberry season here, mmm yum. Susan Fox-Davis/Ma Foxti selene at earthlink.net --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Thu May 15 17:25:21 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Tien and Shame (was freedom and nudity) In-Reply-To: <3EC386C4.7030308@gci.net> Message-ID: <20030515092303.S43892-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Thu, 15 May 2003, Peter Newman wrote: > It seems odd to me that Tien is considered unforgivable while > Bothari, who did far worse, is forgiven. Tien was just trying > to protect his name and his honor (although his actions don't > demonstrate much honor). I think it's because a lot of us have known, and personally hated, people like Tien, and because Tien's actions are the small, soul-numbing kind. Tien is more real to most of us than Bothari is. I have never known a Bothari. I have divorced a Tien. And really, it's much, much easier to get people to forgive your sins if they're big and bold and dramatic, and you yourself are charismatic. Bothari has a certain charisma. Tien has none. ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Thu May 15 17:58:41 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] An Aside on Selfishness In-Reply-To: <3EC35365.9020209@gci.net> Message-ID: <20030515095815.G43892-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Thu, 15 May 2003, Peter Newman wrote: > Brian Hurt wrote > > > (Brian's rule of status reports- the amount of real > > work done by an individual is inversely related to the length of their > > status reports). > > ObBujold: The elderly Imperial Auditor whose reports were two page > handwritten, in bad penmanship, flimsies and who insisted that > anything worth telling could be told in that length. I think it's more like you don't have time to write about what you do. ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Thu May 15 17:59:35 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 11:59:35 -0500 Subject: [LMB] science morality OT: In-Reply-To: <20030513204017.GA18915@ofb.net> References: <5.2.1.1.1.20030513143210.02dff0b0@mail.iqcisp.com> <05d001c31931$c9fc4170$050d4b43@LAPTOP> <20030512.170514.3720.7481@webmail02.lax.untd.com> <05d001c31931$c9fc4170$050d4b43@LAPTOP> <5.2.1.1.1.20030513143210.02dff0b0@mail.iqcisp.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030515115543.02e02c50@mail.iqcisp.com> At 01:40 PM 5/13/2003 -0700, Damien Sullivan wrote: >On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 02:39:56PM -0500, Louann Miller wrote: > > > >Hey, I make judgements. is a lying weasel and > > >this is evil. Scientists actually have a very strong if simple morality, > > >and I think they may be less forgiving than usual. > > > (1) on most matters there is no specific "scientist morality" any more > than > > > (2) The exception is the scientific method, which cast in moral terms > > states Thou Shalt Not Lie, Ever. This generally takes the form not of a > >Right. And I think this is potentially a "one foul and you're out" kind of >thing. Although I don't know what happens to scientists who get caught: do >they end up with teaching jobs at minor universities? I'm not sure I believe >they're totally exiled from the field, without having read any followup. > >Of course scientists don't necessarily hold the same code throughout their >life; lying to a spouse, or in department politics, probably happens a lot. >OTOH, I am one of a subculture where extending Thou Shalt Not Lie to everyday >life is considered not entirely reasonable or undesirable. Oh, certainly. I'm not claiming for a second that being good at physics or geology makes you more virtuous (or less for that matter) in everyday life. It would be astonishing if it did. Over all, you can't count on trained theologians to be holy, trained philosophers to be wise, or trained psychiatrists to be sane. Why would science be different? >Actually, Louann, shouldn't there also be > >(3) When You're Wrong, Admit It, It's Not the End of the World >? > >My own "that's a sin" reactions come from (a) people blatantly lying, (b) pols >asserting statements and suppressing research (that means you, Donna Shalala >on medical marijuana) (c) people refusing to admit when they were wrong >(double evil when people's lives are at stake -- various prosecutors go to >hell on this count). > >There's also (4) Give References, or maybe that's just (2a) Don't Lie About >Where That Came From. Additions gratefully accepted. Louann --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Thu May 15 18:28:09 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:28:09 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Miles' age in WA:Tien in Komarr Message-ID: <16f.1eb85191.2bf52829@aol.com> In a message dated 5/15/2003 2:21:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Yeah--only Miles was 17, in Warrior's Apprentice. And he simply used the old "Caveat emptor" reasoning--he didn't lie, except by omission. All the Betan asked for was the rainfall stats, and so that's all Miles gave him. And remember, Miles wasn't even _selling_ the land, he was just using it as security for a loan. He knew that if he'd asked for help, his father would have made the loan good. Comparing this to the middle-aged Tien's embezzlement, taking bribes, shutting his eyes to terrorist plots, etc., is really unfair. Mary > I.e I can't recall the name of the friggin' thread > and am too lazy to hunt through the digest (again) > to find it, much less retype it once I do... > > Do remember that the glowing land and making lies > true retroactively took place when Miles was __18__. > > Not quite fair to compare to a middle-aged Tien, no? --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Thu May 15 19:04:40 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 19:04:40 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Poetry OT: In-Reply-To: <200305150050.h4F0o8r5020030@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030515190302.00b059b0@pop.luna.co.uk> Pouncer inquires:- >Anybody have an opinon of "Mighty Wind" yet? A large dose of bicarbonate should help a lot. James (g, d, & r) --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Thu May 15 19:09:57 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:09:57 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien Message-ID: <16f.1eb851aa.2bf531f5@aol.com> In a message dated 5/15/2003 1:31:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Isn't that an awfully selfish and short-sighted view for a man with a wife and son? Especially since the son has inherited the problem from him--or does he plan to kill Nikki when he suicides and leave Ekaterin alone and stranded? Also--Ekaterin did not see any signs of Tien being anything but in denial about the whole thing. Maybe the first mental effect of Vorzohn's Dystrophy was, as in drunkenness, loss of judgment. Mary > But how much of Tien's lack of interest in saving for the future, > and how much of his activities at short term improvement were > predicated on his possible thoughts of suicide before he could > make it to the long term? His brother did it and Ekaterin was > afraid that he might. > > It seems to me that Tien regarded his Vorzohns dystrophy as > something that he had to pay to cure now, before any symptoms > could emerge and without letting anyone know. --------________--------________-------- From bhurt at spnz.org Thu May 15 19:33:01 2003 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:33:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] An Aside on Selfishness In-Reply-To: <20030515095815.G43892-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2003, Azalais Malfoy wrote: > On Thu, 15 May 2003, Peter Newman wrote: > > > Brian Hurt wrote > > > > > (Brian's rule of status reports- the amount of real > > > work done by an individual is inversely related to the length of their > > > status reports). > > > > ObBujold: The elderly Imperial Auditor whose reports were two page > > handwritten, in bad penmanship, flimsies and who insisted that > > anything worth telling could be told in that length. > > I think it's more like you don't have time to write about what > you do. > A wise (*cough*) man once said never file interim reports, only final reports. Interim reports only generate more orders, which you either have to obey, or waste precious energy circumventing which could instead be used to solve the problem. I once told my boss that I thought it easier to seek forgiveness than permission, but that if he never figured it out I didn't need either. He thought I was joking. Brian --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Thu May 15 19:26:36 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:26:36 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Chrysler bailout Message-ID: <1f0.901abac.2bf535dc@aol.com> In a message dated 5/15/2003 1:31:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: And how about *Blank* has declared war on us and we have no manufacturing within our own country or close enough to be available? Mary > True, those aren't loans, that I know of; they're straight > bail-outs... er, er, subsidies. But as to not changing their > losing ways (as Chrysler did, under Iacocca), some of that they > can't help. Travel is down, price wars are killing them. (Re some > of their executives, yeah, they should be made to take the back > exit at 30,000 feet, sans parachute....) But the point of keeping > them flying is that their service, air transport, is essential. > We cannot just say "Too bad for you, business. Go under." > in these lean times, and then when the economy strengthens again, > look around and find we *have no air transport*. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Thu May 15 19:28:25 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:28:25 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: [LMB]Values, was Tien and Shame References: <200305151101.h4FB1Ar5022830@lists.herald.co.uk> <3EC386C4.7030308@gci.net> Message-ID: <0acc01c31b0f$c7617c20$050d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Newman" > Paula Lieberman" wrote > > > Ekaterin's first husband had no interest in > > idealism and helping others, no sense of internal obligation, no drive to > > excel, or do better than mediocre, no interest in saving... he was living > > all in the present and no concerned about making anything better, and always > > finding excuses to divest his family of anything that didn't provide him > > with whatever current pleasure/interest he felt like pursuing. He had no > > real respect and no real regard for anyone else, and toadied for the sake of > > toadying and improving his status -today-, forget about planning, saving, > > etc. etc. > > But how much of Tien's lack of interest in saving for the future, > and how much of his activities at short term improvement were > predicated on his possible thoughts of suicide before he could > make it to the long term? His brother did it and Ekaterin was > afraid that he might. > > It seems to me that Tien regarded his Vorzohns dystrophy as > something that he had to pay to cure now, before any symptoms > could emerge and without letting anyone know. > > It seems odd to me that Tien is considered unforgivable while > Bothari, who did far worse, is forgiven. Tien was just trying to Bothari's horrendous actions were done under the direction and influence of Vorrutyer, who tortured the man and drove him crazy. And Bothari chose to have Cordelia be his compass, especially after killing Vorrutyer to save Cordelia. He recognized that he was cognitively depraved and that his internal guide was completely and utterly undependable, unreliable, and unfit for guiding him in proper, acceptable social behavior and actions. But, to the best of his ability, he -tried- to be honorable, and cared for and protected and supported his family and those he swore his allegiance to -- his protection and care for Cordelia, Miles, and Elena proved that amply. Tien, on the other hand, mistreated and deprecated his wife, engaged in reckless behavior with whatever funds came his way including those entruste to him from others, and failed to cherish and protect the people closest to him. Having a degenerative disorder doesn't excuse those sorts of failures. It might make it a lot harder to be concerned for others, but that doesn't excuse > protect his name and his honor (although his actions don't > demonstrate much honor). It seems to me that Barrayar is, at least > partially, a shame culture, not a guilt culture. It is not so much > what you do as what you are known to have done. Barrayar is becoming > less of a shame culture but the Cetagandans are still a shame culture. > I don't see it as cultural, at all. Tien was hiding something, and more interesting in protecting -himself-, than in the well-being of his wife and his son. He was NOT a proper Vor, who according to Barrayaran culture, should have been much more interested in securing the future of his son the continuation of his family line, and the well-being of his wife, than in hiding shortcomings in himself. Bothari admitted his shortcomings, Aral admitted his alcohol abuse.... Aral didn't go out of his way to hide his homosexual leanings -- he didn't display them to the world, he morelike followed "don't ask, don't tell". Tien blustered and pretended there was no problem, he was in massive denial -- and hurting his wife and son through his actions. He put his personal narcissistic emotional comfort, over the safety and security present and future, of his wife and son. And in Barrayaran society, to do that to one's son, was I suspect one of the worst possible societal sins. Or rather, I don't see it as having anything to do with being a "shame culture" or not -- I see it in that culture, as Tien flunking the basic cultural values of protection and respect for one's family, of failing one's -duty- to them. Bothari and Aral and :Piotr and Cordelia and Miles and Gregor and Ezar, and Ivan and Padma, all had extremely strong senses of -duty-, and put the lives and wellbeing and comfort of others, above the wellbeing and comfort of their own. Aral and Cordelia for example left the Regency, with no more financial resources than they went into, donating off the excess, and deferring a much needed roof replacement for the sake of their senses of honesty and Doing the Right Thing and not -profiting- from their tenure in the regency. > [I'm not asserting that a guilt culture is better, simply commenting > that Barrayar seems to be more focused on guilt and less on shame, > perhaps because of the Vorkosigan influence. YMMV] --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Thu May 15 19:30:48 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:30:48 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien Message-ID: <33.38b3ebf8.2bf536d8@aol.com> In a message dated 5/15/2003 1:31:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Not only that, Tien has some of the characteristics that some of us hate in ourselves, such as being easily bored with a job, and have to step on to keep from acting dishonorably. Tien's problem is that he doesn't step on them. Mary > I think it's because a lot of us have known, and personally > hated, people like Tien, and because Tien's actions are the > small, soul-numbing kind. Tien is more real to most of us than > Bothari is. I have never known a Bothari. I have divorced a > Tien. --------________--------________-------- From Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com Thu May 15 19:32:11 2003 From: Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com (Tom Vinson) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:32:11 -0500 Subject: [LMB] English history and dogs Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May, Paula Lieberman was..."trying to remember the > movie, and which English King it was...." Henry II and Thomas Becket. According to _1066 and All That_ the latter's dying words were, "If I had served my God as I served my King it would have been a Good Thing." Thomas More wasn't a priest, and I don't recall any instance of Henry VIII's being contrite about anything. > On the other hand, Bothari referred to himself as Cordelia's > dog... I think I associated this in the back of my mind with the Dominicans. (The name is sometimes related to "domini canes", "dogs of the Lord", but they were evidently represented as dogs in art before that, see http://www.op.org/domcentral/trad/domwork/domworka6.htm.) Yes, Bothari is certainly not a shepherd dog (nowhere near bossy enough for one thing). He is the loyal guard who cannot imagine leaving his post. This can lead to some confusion as the one he is assigned to protect gradually becomes one who gives orders, see TWA.[1] At the end he faces his death much like a dog accepting punishment, without question and without self-defence.[2] Tom [1] His loyalty doesn't keep "his sharpest what-the-hell-are-you- doing-now look" from confronting Miles. [2] Idealized view of dog here, of course. But Bothari's self- description was an ideal. --------________--------________-------- From lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov Thu May 15 19:35:33 2003 From: lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov (Jagoda, Lynette K) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 11:35:33 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Miles' Habits of a Lifetime Message-ID: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20034428@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> I have about a 2 page post running around in my head that I have no time to write up now...hopefully later. But a quick correction before this Age of Miles/Age of Tien thing spins off someplace I don't want to see it go. Following text quotes and names might be a little off.. I am at work. Part of the core of my original post... "One bad lapse of judgment??? One mistake?!?!?! He (Miles) made a lifetime habit out of "lie now, make it be true later"... Is there such a thing as retroactive honesty?" Miles at 17 - Does the Radioactive Land "misdirection" when not personally under fire. Does the whole Dendarii sham/lie later when under greater stress. Miles at 20 - The Vor Game -- a lovely jaunt that is filled with places borrows/shams/connives and commits resources he does not have the actual authority to commit. Miles to Gregor something like, "I can only sham, your breath is law" Ungari to Miles, "Ensigns don't have personal responsibly for things of this magnitude, and I am sure would have been pointed out to me if you had failed!" Miles later to Aral "Will you redeem my Word for me?" Miles at 22 - Hides his little encounter with the Ba and his acquisition of the "seal" from his own superiors... *before* he realizes its tactical value. Miles at 23 - Lies to Taura about why he is there. Miles at 28 - Hides his seizures from his chain of command so that he can go back to the Dendarii Miles at 28/29 - Hides his seizures from his *own* subordinates so they can't question his judgment. Majorly screws up by going on that drop mission, jeopardizes his friends and subordinates, cuts Vorberg in half and even then.... still chooses to try and continue the cover-up, to save his own autonomy. Miles in Memory after writing the misleading report... "This could get me cashiered." - "Only if I got caught." His whole life felt as if it had been based on that principle; He's outrun assassins, medics, the regulations of the Service, the constraints of his Vor rank... he'd outrun death itself, demonstrably "I can even move faster than you Illyan." Sorry, no repentance here. No redeeming principle or greater good at stake. Just plain simple personal self interest. Later he is sorry, later he accepts his accountability. But not here. So tell me again how at this place Miles (almost 30) is so much more "honorable" than Tien? Miles at 30 something - he attempts to manipulate and capture Ekaterin though a web of half truths and subtle deceptions that almost cost him his relationship with her. Old habits die hard. Again, I love and admire many things about Miles. But his propensity to manipulate though whatever means it takes to get what he wants, including subterfuge and blatant dishonesty is hardly a sterling character trait. And it isn't *always* done in service to some higher good either. My comparison of Miles and Tien was not "age dependent". Lynette <---- more later hopefully.... --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Thu May 15 19:40:56 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 11:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Radar In-Reply-To: <200305151101.h4FB1Er5022833@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Oh, Beatrice, my heart goes out to you. It is obvious to me though that he didn't go alone, he went near a loving presence (your Michael) and that his memory will live long in your hearts. Gentle hugs for your loss. Susan in Seattle --------________--------________-------- From lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov Thu May 15 19:51:16 2003 From: lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov (Jagoda, Lynette K) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 11:51:16 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Mutie Message-ID: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20034429@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> Eric asks why is Tien always being referred to as a mutant? Very quick Genetics Lesson: Genotype - The precise genetic make-up of an organism Phenotype - The observable characteristics of an organism Mutation - an inheritable change in the base sequence of the genome of an organism. Mutant - An organism whose genome carries a mutation Miles is *Not* a mutant even though he as an abnormal "Phenotype" because of his gestational poison exposure. Tien *IS* a mutant, even though it can't be seen from the outside, because he carries, in his genetic make-up a change/defect that causes his illness and that can be passed on to his offspring. Cultural problem from the TOI... without advanced genetic technology you can't *tell* for sure by Phenotype what is and is not a mutation. Thus, Riana is killed and Tien is allowed to live. Exactly the opposite of what should have happened if your goal is genetic cleansing. Lynette --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Thu May 15 19:56:38 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 18:56:38 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: Virtue and vice Message-ID: <20030515.115742.21459.78885@webmail05.lax.untd.com> Pam wrote: "Someone admitting to personal imperfections when talking about how life should be lived, is a quite different situation than someone writing about virtues and pretending their own vices have never occurred/aren't relevant issues." Does consensus on what constitutes vice apply? To use your example about Aral's self-medication with alcohol (given the state of Barrayaran mental health services, can you blame him?), Aral knows it's a poor solution to depression/despair and seemingly-insurmountable life problems. He knows that as a recurring habit it's a vice. As Pam points out he admits as much to Miles. But he never admits that his affair with wassname Rutyer was a vice, even though I'd bet money quite alot of Barrayaran society would assume it was. And yet he didn't feel it necc. to publicize his "sins" even though Aral *did* feel not merely entitled but *obliged* to set pretty stringent moral standards, not only for Miles, but for Gregor and for the students as that Vor military academy. There's something to be said for setting a Good Example, even if you don't really agree that the "Good" in question is particularly imperative. Neither Miles nor Aral seems to have any difficulty in distinguishing between the drunkeness and extra-marital affairs though many people could and would argue that these behaviours can be self-destructive and other-destructive. Or between a whole slew of things they believe to be vices--and those they don't. And their personal integrity--not doing the stuff they think is wrong, doing the stuff they think is right--not to mention judging when other people have lived up to the standards of virtue they've set--is just fine. And believe me, I'll be deeply grateful to everyone who refuses to draw pretty parallels between the general ethical issues (wh. I find interesting) and the behaviour of specific American quasi-celebs who I have *no* desire to defend. Frex: Just how important is it for Aral and Miles, lofty political and social personages of Barrayar that they are, to set that Good Example? There are probably lots of indugences (vices, if you well) they can afford to have that The Average Barrayaran couldn't--if they indulged freely, they'd come to grief in ways that wouldn't trouble Miles and Aral. The two men live pretty straight-laced lives--it may be by natural inclination, but judging from Miles's Thing about service--maybe it's that need to set a Good Example? Kirsten Edwards ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Thu May 15 19:58:37 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 11:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] An Aside on Selfishness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030515115729.F43892-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Thu, 15 May 2003, Brian Hurt wrote: > On Thu, 15 May 2003, Azalais Malfoy wrote: > > > On Thu, 15 May 2003, Peter Newman wrote: > > > > > Brian Hurt wrote > > > > > > > (Brian's rule of status reports- the amount of real > > > > work done by an individual is inversely related to the length of their > > > > status reports). > > > > > > ObBujold: The elderly Imperial Auditor whose reports were two page > > > handwritten, in bad penmanship, flimsies and who insisted that > > > anything worth telling could be told in that length. > > > > I think it's more like you don't have time to write about what > > you do. > > A wise (*cough*) man once said never file interim reports, only final > reports. Interim reports only generate more orders, which you either have > to obey, or waste precious energy circumventing which could instead be > used to solve the problem. I once told my boss that I thought it easier > to seek forgiveness than permission, but that if he never figured it out I > didn't need either. He thought I was joking. Permission to crosspost? Want your name on it or not? That so needs to go to the Discordian Order of St. Salazar Slytherin. Of which I am one of the prelates. We like people who think like you. ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Thu May 15 20:02:00 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 19:02:00 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: freedom (skipping the nudity for now :-) Message-ID: <20030515.120238.21459.79029@webmail05.lax.untd.com> I wrote [much snippage]: > For my fellow 'Murcan's there's the wonderful dichotomy we face > in child rearing: Tyranny in the service of freedom: We must rule Paula commented: [snipped the bits wh. aren't relevant & w.wh. I have no argument] "The distinction there is that children are seen as not responsible for their actions and not to be treated as responsible." I don't really have time to take this one up...but something about that sentence rings a major wrong note. Maybe later... Kirsten (too much listserv time again) Edwards ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu May 15 20:04:02 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 12:04:02 -0700 Subject: [LMB] An Aside on Selfishness In-Reply-To: <20030515115729.F43892-100000@shell.rawbw.com> References: <20030515115729.F43892-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <20030515190402.GA6541@ofb.net> On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 11:58:37AM -0700, Azalais Malfoy wrote: > On Thu, 15 May 2003, Brian Hurt wrote: > > used to solve the problem. I once told my boss that I thought it easier > > to seek forgiveness than permission, but that if he never figured it out I > > didn't need either. He thought I was joking. > > Permission to crosspost? Want your name on it or not? Shouldn't you crosspost first, then ask permission? :) -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu May 15 20:06:02 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 12:06:02 -0700 Subject: [LMB] An Aside on Selfishness In-Reply-To: <20030515115729.F43892-100000@shell.rawbw.com> References: <20030515115729.F43892-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <20030515190602.GB6541@ofb.net> On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 11:58:37AM -0700, Azalais Malfoy wrote: > On Thu, 15 May 2003, Brian Hurt wrote: > > A wise (*cough*) man once said never file interim reports, only final > > reports. Interim reports only generate more orders, which you either have > > to obey, or waste precious energy circumventing which could instead be > > used to solve the problem. I once told my boss that I thought it easier > > to seek forgiveness than permission, but that if he never figured it out I > > didn't need either. He thought I was joking. Aren't the first two sentences of that Miles? -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Thu May 15 20:07:35 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 19:07:35 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: It's not my fault! OT: Message-ID: <20030515.120744.21459.79221@webmail05.lax.untd.com> Jim believes he's cleverly caught me out: "...if private industry is so wonderfully efficient, why does the U. S. government need to keep bailing it out? Chrysler under Iacocca, the airlines (who keep getting huge subsidies but don't change their losing ways), et alia." Alas my son, it was even in this listserv that I ranted on the Virtue of Loss. For the *private* industry to be effective it must indeed be *private* wh. means, poor babies, no government bailouts. Corporations can and must be allowed to fail, pour encourager les autres. C'mon. You're asking this of a *Libertarian* for Heaven's sake. We wrote the book on dislike of rent-seeking behaviour and the problems when you give the gov't enough power and cash to make it not merely worthwhile, but inevitable. Kirsten (Gov't agencies will always go for the soft target) Edwards ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Thu May 15 20:24:14 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 21:24:14 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien In-Reply-To: <16f.1eb851aa.2bf531f5@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030515192414.22553.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> --- CatMtn at aol.com a icrit : > > Maybe the first mental effect of Vorzohn's > Dystrophy was, as in drunkenness, loss of judgment. I don't think that's a symptom of Vorzohn's Dystrophy--I think that's just a symptom of being Tien. Joy Lanterman ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov Thu May 15 21:02:55 2003 From: lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov (Jagoda, Lynette K) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:02:55 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Bart Almost Home =-) Message-ID: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D2003442A@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> Bart is stateside and thinks he will be home with Rayma and the boys tomorrow. So my duty as liaison is just about over. He should be back with us himself within a few weeks. Lynette <----- Who in a strange twist irony got a message at work today asking for potential volunteers to consider spending two months in Iraq as part of an environmental rebuilding team of engineers from her company. So perhaps in a few month's Bart will be posting "Lynette updates"... --------________--------________-------- From bhurt at spnz.org Thu May 15 21:18:30 2003 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:18:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] An Aside on Selfishness In-Reply-To: <20030515115729.F43892-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2003, Azalais Malfoy wrote: > On Thu, 15 May 2003, Brian Hurt wrote: > > > A wise (*cough*) man once said never file interim reports, only final > > reports. Interim reports only generate more orders, which you either have > > to obey, or waste precious energy circumventing which could instead be > > used to solve the problem. Up until here I'm quoting Bujold- to be more specific, Miles in "Brothers in Arms". In the conversation with Elli and Admiral whatshisname from sector 2. I find that conversation doubly humorous because, at that point, Miles is alive because Elli *didn't* give an interim report to Mark. > > I once told my boss that I thought it easier > > to seek forgiveness than permission, but that if he never figured it out I > > didn't need either. He thought I was joking. > > Permission to crosspost? Want your name on it or not? Permission granted. Don't care if I'm attributed or not. I miss that job (it was a startup that went bust, not needing forgiveness once too often). My standard status report there was the boss sticking his head in and going "is it soup yet?" To which I'd respond "Shut up. Go away." > > That so needs to go to the Discordian Order of St. Salazar > Slytherin. > > Of which I am one of the prelates. We like people who think like > you. Myself, I'm not a discordian, just an engineer. I do have a friend who was once accused of being an "orthodox discordian". He's still trying to figure out if that's an insult or not. Brian --------________--------________-------- From bhurt at spnz.org Thu May 15 21:18:56 2003 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:18:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] An Aside on Selfishness In-Reply-To: <20030515190402.GA6541@ofb.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 11:58:37AM -0700, Azalais Malfoy wrote: > > On Thu, 15 May 2003, Brian Hurt wrote: > > > > used to solve the problem. I once told my boss that I thought it easier > > > to seek forgiveness than permission, but that if he never figured it out I > > > didn't need either. He thought I was joking. > > > > Permission to crosspost? Want your name on it or not? > > Shouldn't you crosspost first, then ask permission? :) Forgiveness, you mean. And since I'm not on that list... Brian --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu May 15 21:11:04 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:11:04 -0700 Subject: [LMB] An Aside on Selfishness In-Reply-To: References: <20030515115729.F43892-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <20030515201104.GA19013@ofb.net> On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 03:18:30PM -0500, Brian Hurt wrote: > Myself, I'm not a discordian, just an engineer. I do have a friend who > was once accused of being an "orthodox discordian". He's still trying to > figure out if that's an insult or not. I think it's a discord. :) -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Thu May 15 21:40:20 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:40:20 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Virtue and vice References: <20030515.115742.21459.78885@webmail05.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <0b3401c31b22$349fc5f0$050d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirsten Edwards" > Pam wrote: > > "Someone admitting to personal imperfections when talking about how life should be lived, is a quite different situation than someone writing about virtues and pretending their own vices have never occurred/aren't relevant issues." > > Does consensus on what constitutes vice apply? To use your example > about Aral's self-medication with alcohol (given the state of > Barrayaran mental health services, can you blame him?), Aral knows > it's a poor solution to depression/despair and seemingly-insurmountable > life problems. He knows that as a recurring habit it's a vice. As > Pam points out he admits as much to Miles. > Alcohol on Barrayar is an allowable vice, however.... > But he never admits that his affair with wassname Rutyer was a > vice, even though I'd bet money quite alot of Barrayaran society > would assume it was. Barrayaran society most definitely felt it was socially vile, despicable, and heinous -- in Barrayar someone tried to shock and horrify Cordelia with it, and was quite mortified when Cordelia said essentially "so what? That's not news to me, and it doesn't bother me any." > And yet he didn't feel it necc. to publicize his "sins" even It was long ago, long before he met Cordelia, and back before, and somewhat after as a result of [masterminded by Vorrutyer intentionally] his first wife's affair and suicide. > though Aral *did* feel not merely entitled but *obliged* to set > pretty stringent moral standards, not only for Miles, but for > Gregor and for the students as that Vor military academy. There's Aral's involvement with Vorrutyer contributed to the scandal and tragedy with his wife -- had Aral never been involved with Vorruyter, Vorrutyer never would have plotted the disgrace and demise of Aral's wife. And that Aral's actions had led to the death of his life-loving, high-spirited, joyous if a bit spoiled wife whom Aral had not treated as a wife should be cherished Aral realized in retrospect, preyed on Aral's senses of obligation, duty, responsibility, honor, and decency. Preventing others from copying his mistakes, and particularly the ones that killed people who didn't deserve to die, had to rank -very- high on his priorities. > something to be said for setting a Good Example, even if you don't > really agree that the "Good" in question is particularly imperative. > > Neither Miles nor Aral seems to have any difficulty in distinguishing > between the drunkeness and extra-marital affairs though many people > could and would argue that these behaviours can be self-destructive > and other-destructive. Or between a whole slew of things they The issue was "is this harming other people/ is it -lethal-?" Aral realized later that he should have overlooked his wife's infidelity, that it was a light flirtation that had gone too far and didn't really -mean- anything to her, it was part of the social whirl that neglected and lonely wives engaged in. She wasn't foisting a bastard on him, and she didn't -mean- to hurt and dishonor him... she was deliberately misled and entrapped, and so was Aral entrapped, viciously, and fatally for her, so. And on Barrayar, infidelity for -males- was no big deal... Aral was contrite and forever after carried the pain and guilt for his wife's death with him; and realized that what he should have done as a decent person and someone who cared for his wife and had taken on the duty and responsibility to cherish and protect her, was to have overlooked/ignored/gotten over her infidelity. > believe to be vices--and those they don't. And their personal > integrity--not doing the stuff they think is wrong, doing the stuff > they think is right--not to mention judging when other people have > lived up to the standards of virtue they've set--is just fine. > > And believe me, I'll be deeply grateful to everyone who refuses > to draw pretty parallels between the general ethical issues > (wh. I find interesting) and the behaviour of specific American > quasi-celebs who I have *no* desire to defend. > > Frex: Just how important is it for Aral and Miles, lofty political > and social personages of Barrayar that they are, to set that Good > Example? There are probably lots of indugences (vices, if you well) > they can afford to have that The Average Barrayaran couldn't--if they > indulged freely, they'd come to grief in ways that wouldn't trouble > Miles and Aral. The two men live pretty straight-laced lives--it may > be by natural inclination, but judging from Miles's Thing about > service--maybe it's that need to set a Good Example? > Different people have different drives and needs. Some people seem almost constitutionally incapable of strict monogamy, others the idea of them not being strict monogamists, is laughable. In the case of Miles, his curiosity, among other things, was a much stronger drive than mere sex. And what he wanted Lady Vorkosigan for, was NOT principally sexual activities, he wanted a partner, he wanted a wife, he wanted a mother for his and her children, he wanted Lady Vorkosigan to cherish and protect and take her place beside him caring for the people of his district and supporting Emperor Gregor. --------________--------________-------- From dtilque at nwlink.com Thu May 15 21:12:39 2003 From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:12:39 -0700 Subject: [LMB] US Beer OT: References: Message-ID: <009101c31b1e$56f6f5a0$b0aeadcf@nwlink.com> Mandos performed an arpeggio on a keyboard and produced: >> Guinness, technically, is stout. Most American brands are >> lager, and some ale. > > I always thought American Brands of Beer are "Sex in a Canoe" > ie "F**king close to water" :-) > That joke is not especially new, but I suppose it still contains a good deal of truth. But only if you're talking about American macrobrews (i.e. Budweiser, Coors, Miller). Things are much different when you consider the microbeers. Several years ago, I had to make a business trip to England. A guy who worked for our English subsidiary told me that I'd find the English beers much better than American beers. I wasn't sure I'd believe him as his drink was scotch, not beer, but I figured I'd give it a go. So when I was there, I tried out several different English beers. I don't remember any of the brands, except that one was Guinness (there's a Guinness brewery in England.) I'm not a beer expert, but I did not find any of the English beers to be superior to any of the beers from home that I was familiar with. In fact, the English Guinness was not even as good as the Guinness we get in the States (imported from Ireland). -- Dan Tilque --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Thu May 15 21:48:19 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:48:19 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Auditor's scope, was An Aside on Selfishness References: <20030515115729.F43892-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <0b3b01c31b23$523fbce0$050d4b43@LAPTOP> Interim reports are Important, they're proof that progress is being made, they're proof that the people providing the funds are getting something worth their money -- and worth CONTINUING to provide funding, and they are designed to give -tastes- and indications of what's been found out/identified/is promising/is something that is going to be refocusses. I've written lots of progress and interim reports in my time, and they are VERY important, to being -allowed- to continue on -- or to getting something which is counterproductive, STOPPED before it wastes any more time and money that is necessarily to shut it down and use the funding and labor on something worthwhile! They provide reassurance to funders and associates that what someone is working on, is worthwhile, and that the persons involved, actually -are- working productively, and not slacking off/wasting the funder's time and effort and energy and resources. Regarding Auditors, they don't have to justify their actions and activities to anyone except the Emperor. They have the funding, automatically, they don't have to provide progress reports, or justify their actions to anyone, or persuade anyone who's a Barrayaran for reasons other than "if you're a loyal citizen of the Empire" -- they only have to provide justificaton for non-citizens, to get them to cooperate. They have unlimited Empire credit, unlimited call on ships, personnel, access to records, etc. etc. etc. They don't have any -need- to write interim reports, progress reports, or meeting notes, other than whatever they themselves -feel- like providing, or feel necessary to get others to understand what they want/need. Again the only person they owe anything to, is the Emperor. If he wants reports, they're obliged to provide them. Anyone else in the Empire, tough. -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Azalais Malfoy" > On Thu, 15 May 2003, Brian Hurt wrote: > > > On Thu, 15 May 2003, Azalais Malfoy wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 15 May 2003, Peter Newman wrote: > > > > > > > Brian Hurt wrote > > > > > > > > > (Brian's rule of status reports- the amount of real > > > > > work done by an individual is inversely related to the length of their > > > > > status reports). > > > > > > > > ObBujold: The elderly Imperial Auditor whose reports were two page > > > > handwritten, in bad penmanship, flimsies and who insisted that > > > > anything worth telling could be told in that length. > > > > > > I think it's more like you don't have time to write about what > > > you do. > > > > A wise (*cough*) man once said never file interim reports, only final > > reports. Interim reports only generate more orders, which you either have > > to obey, or waste precious energy circumventing which could instead be > > used to solve the problem. I once told my boss that I thought it easier > > to seek forgiveness than permission, but that if he never figured it out I > > didn't need either. He thought I was joking. > > Permission to crosspost? Want your name on it or not? > > That so needs to go to the Discordian Order of St. Salazar > Slytherin. > > Of which I am one of the prelates. We like people who think like > you. > --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Thu May 15 22:01:57 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:01:57 -0400 Subject: [LMB] An Aside on Selfishness References: Message-ID: <0b5b01c31b25$39945c30$050d4b43@LAPTOP> Oh, I see that I left out something regarding interim reports -- there are times when they are appropriate as, "investigation continuing, too preliminary to generate interim results" or to be -late-, or "situation fluid, will report later." -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Hurt" > On Thu, 15 May 2003, Azalais Malfoy wrote: > > > On Thu, 15 May 2003, Brian Hurt wrote: > > > Up until here I'm quoting Bujold- to be more specific, Miles in "Brothers > in Arms". In the conversation with Elli and Admiral whatshisname from > sector 2. I find that conversation doubly humorous because, at that > point, Miles is alive because Elli *didn't* give an interim report to > Mark. > > Permission granted. Don't care if I'm attributed or not. I miss that job > (it was a startup that went bust, not needing forgiveness once too often). Most startups do go bust.... been there, declined the stock option thankfully. > My standard status report there was the boss sticking his head in and > going "is it soup yet?" To which I'd respond "Shut up. Go away." > A lot depends on the particular work, and where the funding and such is coming from. If there's no justification/reassurance to the Authority or funder required... on the other hand, status reports do allow the person doing the work, to keep track of progress, which can be extremely useful. [snip] > Myself, I'm not a discordian, just an engineer. I do have a friend who > was once accused of being an "orthodox discordian". He's still trying to > figure out if that's an insult or not. > There are a wide variety of engineers, however, from particularist beyond almost belief industrial control engineers (marketing? promotion? The customers come to us and tell us what they want!) to "sales engineers" who are always promising things that don't exist.... Imperial auditors don't tend to be engineers -- Miles certainly isn't one. I'm not quite sure what "specialization" Miles has -- he's not a "bean counter," he's not an "enigineer," he's not a pilot, he's not a sales type.... hm, he's a synthesist and a generalist, and something of a showman. --------________--------________-------- From zafaran at sff.net Thu May 15 22:07:10 2003 From: zafaran at sff.net (Patricia A. Swan) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:07:10 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Borderline Personality Disorder was Re: Tien In-Reply-To: <16f.1eb851aa.2bf531f5@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030515170006.038640f0@pop3.sff.net> At 02:09 PM 5/15/2003 -0400, CatMtn at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 5/15/2003 1:31:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > >Isn't that an awfully selfish and short-sighted view for a man with a >wife >and son? Especially since the son has inherited the problem from >him--or >does he plan to kill Nikki when he suicides and leave Ekaterin alone >and >stranded? Also--Ekaterin did not see any signs of Tien being anything >but in >denial about the whole thing. Maybe the first mental effect of >Vorzohn's >Dystrophy was, as in drunkenness, loss of judgment. > >Mary The list worked it out a couple of years ago that Tien is a classic textbook case of Borderline Personality Disorder, and Lois confirmed that *is* accurate to the character. He's wired wrong mentally, is getting progressively worse as he ages, and the Vorzohn's Dystrophy is just an additional factor in the equation. Pat in North Carolina -- * Patricia A. Swan <*> zafaran at dnet.net Ebay ID: zafaranswan * * Six Swans Design http://members.fortunecity.com/zafaran * --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Thu May 15 21:52:35 2003 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:52:35 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: It's not my fault! OT: References: <20030515.120744.21459.79221@webmail05.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <3EC3FE13.F6AFCF3D@erols.com> Kirsten Edwards wrote: > > Jim believes he's cleverly caught me out: > > "...if private industry is so wonderfully efficient, why does the > U. S. government need to keep bailing it out? Chrysler under Iacocca, > the airlines (who keep getting huge subsidies but don't change their > losing ways), et alia." Missing the point. At the time, Chrysler was a very important defense contractor. The gov't couldn't afford to let them go toes up. And, as has been pointed out, Chrysler paid the loan back in full, early. Alex H. --------________--------________-------- From gerria2000 at yahoo.com Thu May 15 22:11:28 2003 From: gerria2000 at yahoo.com (Gerri Alexander) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] re:Worth of services In-Reply-To: <200305150422.h4F4MDr5020946@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030515211128.67407.qmail@web9904.mail.yahoo.com> "My experience in both the public and private sector with costcutting:" Our city is going thru drastic budget cuts because of the state budget crisis, they will be cutting the library and laying off workers. So who do they choose to layoff? The people who actually put the books on the shelves and work with the public, of course, even though they make the least amount of money! (looking at possible unemployment) Gerri Alexander --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Thu May 15 22:39:06 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:39:06 +1200 Subject: [LMB] US Beer OT: In-Reply-To: <009101c31b1e$56f6f5a0$b0aeadcf@nwlink.com> Message-ID: > So when I was there, I tried out several different English beers. > I don't remember any of the brands, except that one was Guinness > (there's a Guinness brewery in England.) I'm not a beer expert, > but I did not find any of the English beers to be superior to any > of the beers from home that I was familiar with. In fact, the > English Guinness was not even as good as the Guinness we get in > the States (imported from Ireland). Guiness from Ireland is always superior because the spring water they use in the brewery has the rich taste of the peat in it which adds to the guiness taste. Guiness anywhere else uses the local water which means the brew is not as good. I like to try beer from the world over tend to think the NZ and French are the best makers of Lager, the UK makes the best Dark Ales and Stouts with Germany and Holland making the best mid range beers. Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Thu May 15 22:40:52 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:40:52 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Aussie Beers In-Reply-To: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F537029D2C2A@PICO.staff.vuw.ac . nz> Message-ID: > > From: I [mailto:iosef at gothic.net.au] > > Do you have an Islay? > Heh, sorry, I'm a wuss, only Speyside malts for me (people keep saying > they'll educate me *one day*) I prefer the sherry casked highland malts myself (The Macallan), or the deep rich seaweedy taste of Talisker. Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From jwreynold at earthlink.net Thu May 15 22:44:32 2003 From: jwreynold at earthlink.net (James Reynolds) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:44:32 -0400 Subject: Subject: [LMB] Subsidizing Transportation OT: In-Reply-To: <200305151730.h4FHUBr5024247@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <6A0897CE-871E-11D7-BA10-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> > > James Reynolds asks: > >> [I]f private industry is so wonderfully efficient, why does the > U. S. government need to keep bailing it out? Chrysler under > Iacocca < > > Nitpick: Chrysler was not a bail-out, it was a govt. > guaranteed *loan* (line of credit, actually). It was never fully > drawn down, and was paid back, in full, and early. Not so this: > >> the airlines (who keep getting huge subsidies but don't change > their losing ways), et alia. < > > True, those aren't loans, that I know of; they're straight > bail-outs... er, er, subsidies. But as to not changing their > losing ways (as Chrysler did, under Iacocca), some of that they > can't help. Travel is down, price wars are killing them. (Re some > of their executives, yeah, they should be made to take the back > exit at 30,000 feet, sans parachute....) But the point of keeping > them flying is that their service, air transport, is essential. > We cannot just say "Too bad for you, business. Go under." > in these lean times, and then when the economy strengthens again, > look around and find we *have no air transport*. You have it right, Kay; I don't want the airlines gone either. That would be Very Bad. I was using the 'bail-outs' as an example of private industry not being as 'efficient' as government. The gummint is better at some things than the private sector, and worse at others. Rant warning: Why is it an 'investment' when we help the airlines/auto industries, and a 'subsidy' when we help Amtrack? I much prefer riding the rails to Boston or Baltimore than spending half-a-day or more on the highways. End rant. And many thanks for the new subject line; I kept forgetting to come up with a new one to replace the generic digest line. *** Jim Reynolds --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Thu May 15 23:08:53 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 23:08:53 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) In-Reply-To: <200305152008.h4FK84r5024994@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030515230551.00ae23f8@pop.luna.co.uk> Brian Hurt wrote:- >I once told my boss that I thought it easier >to seek forgiveness than permission, but that >if he never figured it out I didn't need either. Malfoy asks for:- >Permission to crosspost? Malfoy, Malfoy - FIRST you crosspost, THEN you beg forgiveness. James (FIRST you loot, THEN you burn) Bryant --------________--------________-------- From lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov Thu May 15 23:07:30 2003 From: lynette.jagoda at pnl.gov (Jagoda, Lynette K) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:07:30 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Total Lunar Eclipse: May 15-16, 2003 Message-ID: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D207253A8@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> The first eclipse of 2003 occurs on the evening of Thursday, May 15 (in Europe, the eclipse occurs during the early morning hours of Friday, May 16). This event is a total eclipse of the Moon which will be visible from North and South America as well as Europe, Africa and Antarctica. During such an eclipse, the Moon's disk can take on a dramatically colorful appearance from bright orange to blood red to dark brown and (rarely) very dark gray. For More: http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/extra/TLE2003May15.html --------________--------________-------- From jwreynold at earthlink.net Thu May 15 23:11:12 2003 From: jwreynold at earthlink.net (James Reynolds) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 18:11:12 -0400 Subject: Subject: [LMB] Re: It's not my fault! OT: In-Reply-To: <200305152008.h4FK84r5024994@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <2381689E-8722-11D7-BA10-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> > > Jim believes he's cleverly caught me out: Clever? Me? Not in this timeline. > "...if private industry is so wonderfully efficient, why does the > U. S. government need to keep bailing it out? Chrysler under Iacocca, > the airlines (who keep getting huge subsidies but don't change their > losing ways), et alia." > > Alas my son, it was even in this listserv that I ranted on the Virtue > of Loss. For the *private* industry to be effective it must indeed > be *private* wh. means, poor babies, no government bailouts. > Corporations can and must be allowed to fail, pour encourager les > autres. (snip) "Rent-seeking behaviour"? I don't get that reference. What I was trying to get at was the seeming hypocrisy of the 'Private Is Better Than Public' attitude, as in companies that demand deregulation and tax relief, than go whining to the Feds when they screw up; as in 'Outsource That Government Work Because We're Better That Them'. If NASA still did its own work instead of outsourcing to the Space Business Alliance and getting rid of its own techies..... And of the Too Big To Fail attitude, which allows companies to take mad risks, knowing that the Feds will 'have' to save them if they muck up. The hypocrisy referred to above is not yours, Kirsten. Rant Over. Sorry about that. *** Jim Reynolds --------________--------________-------- From kayshapero at earthlink.net Thu May 15 22:53:20 2003 From: kayshapero at earthlink.net (Kay Shapero) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:53:20 -0700 Subject: [LMB] An Aside on Selfishness References: Message-ID: <025901c31b2f$98f1c460$f314f4d8@pavilion> "Brian Hurt" wrote; > A wise (*cough*) man once said never file interim reports, only final > reports. Interim reports only generate more orders, which you either have > to obey, or waste precious energy circumventing which could instead be > used to solve the problem. I once told my boss that I thought it easier > to seek forgiveness than permission, but that if he never figured it out I > didn't need either. He thought I was joking. > > Vague memory of a high ranking military official in a Dan Gallery (Rear Adm. ret.) novel of whom it was said that left to himself he would only issue one report, it would come at the end of the war and would consist of "We won." :-> --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Thu May 15 23:19:32 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:19:32 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: Miles' Habits of a Lifetime Message-ID: <20030515.152017.21459.83334@webmail05.lax.untd.com> Lynnette (and I :-) regret that she doesn't have "time to write up now...hopefully later" You and me three--though now that I've got the article fired off to the editor, I can feel slightly less guilty (It's sunny. I'm not trenching, weeding or transplanting, I'm sitting at my friggin' computer--! So only one comment: (though I have more, :-) Regarding the MEMORY self-destruction (fake reports) filed when his self-deception proved costly: Lynnette: "Sorry, no repentance here. No redeeming principle or greater good at stake. Just plain simple personal self interest." But this *IS* the first time there was no redeeming principle or greater good at stake (as your prev. examples do show, if you care to expand upon them). It's an important first, since Miles can justify his dance on a knife's edge of virtue not only with his successes (as you mention) but with his own self-sacrife. When it comes to paying up, Miles is first in line with his own life, skills, time, pain and money. Miles knows from "it's my responsibilty". Then Lynnette adds: "Later [Miles] is sorry, later he accepts his accountability. But not here. So tell me again how at this place Miles (almost 30) is so much more "honorable" than Tien?" Because Tien never, ever did. His was a long life of never taking responsibilty, never admitting fault. Miles' successes blinded him to the moral dangers of the double-agent game he played as Naismith, which is probably why he fell so hard and so badly in MEMORY. It's pure speculation, but if Tien had lived, what are the odds he'd have, like Miles, gone 3 rounds with temptation and won? To compare it to another story (The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe) Miles isn't Peter (sans peur et sans reproche)--but he's not Rabadash, either. And I've always had a soft spot for the Edmunds and Eustace Clarence Scrubs of literature :-) Kirsten Edwards ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Thu May 15 23:24:27 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:24:27 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: An aside on selfishness Message-ID: <20030515.152440.21459.83397@webmail05.lax.untd.com> Regarding the motto: (paraphrased) "It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission, but if you don't get caught you won't need either" Damien asks: "Shouldn't you crosspost first, then ask permission? :)" Or rather, crosspost first, and hope not to get caught. And if Damien, Malfoy, and er, Brian? don't see how Milesian (or at least how tres Imp Sec) this whole series of posts are, I do Kirsten ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Thu May 15 22:12:03 2003 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:12:03 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien Message-ID: > From: Joyeuse > Date: 15 May 2003 20:24 > > --- CatMtn at aol.com a icrit : > > > Maybe the first mental effect of Vorzohn's > > Dystrophy was, as in drunkenness, loss of judgment. > > I don't think that's a symptom of Vorzohn's Dystrophy--I think that's just a > symptom of being Tien. It is a possible effect, but Tien didn't have it. [Komarr ch 15 ] autopsy report on Tien "The nervous lesions were very distinct, according to the examiner. Though how they can tell one microscopic blob from another . . . The outward symptoms, if I interpret the medical jargon correctly, would have been impossible to conceal very soon." "Yes. I think I knew that. It was the inward progress I wondered about. When did it start. How much of Tien's, oh, bad judgment and other behavior was his disease." Should she have somehow held on longer? Could she have? Until what other desperate denouement had played itself out? "The damage builds slowly for a long time. Which parts of the brain are affected varies from person to person. For what it's worth, his seemed concentrated in the motor regions and peripheral nervous system. Though it may be possible to blame some of his actions on the disease, later, if a face-saving gesture is needed." -- Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu May 15 22:36:23 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:36:23 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Buffy Bye-Bye Way OT: In-Reply-To: References: <3EC27457.22539.1BA5E56@localhost> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030515163057.01db6c80@pop.east.cox.net> At 23:02 05/14/2003, Mandos wrote: > > At the beginning of the last TV season I had five shows I intended to > > watch regularly: BtVS, Angel, Firefly, Farscape, and (out of place, > > perhaps) Gilmore Girls. > >For me the only US show I have found to be decent recently is Scrubs. Well >worth watching. I got the NYPD Blue habit a bunch of years ago (Jimmy Smits was still there). Every once in a while, they do something real good--but then they probably will give you a view of someone's butt in the next scene, of course. The last few weeks, a running story involved a custody battle with the baby's grandparents--and the denouement involved a guest appearance by Jodie Foster as the baby's aunt, which I found somewhat surprising (not the story line, just the presence of Foster). -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu May 15 22:43:07 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:43:07 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Buffy Bye-Bye Way OT: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030515164008.01db46f0@pop.east.cox.net> At 10:55 05/15/2003, lorraine fletez-brant wrote: >Well, I'm glad to know my buddy isn't going to be totally in the doldrums! >KayC recommends West Wing. I also recommend Law & Order, in its various >iterations (that's where I went after I decided I didn't like Enterprise >enough to keep watching). I spent the year watching Angel instead of the WW. I don't especially like the original Law & Order, but I do like Special Victims Unit. And I can't STAND that overacting fool on Criminal Intent. But I'm still watching ER faithfully, as well as the two CSI shows. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu May 15 23:07:57 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:07:57 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: whatever In-Reply-To: <1F599D2C-86CD-11D7-B46B-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> References: <200305150620.h4F6K4r5021628@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030515165823.01db7d90@pop.east.cox.net> At 07:02 05/15/2003, James Reynolds wrote: > Kirsten, if private industry is so wonderfully efficient, why > does the U. S. government need to keep bailing it out? Chrysler under > Iacocca, the airlines (who keep getting huge subsidies but don't change > their losing ways), et alia. Bad management decisions, which in general has nothing to do with efficiency. Chrysler wasn't inefficient, it had the wrong product line and insufficient cash on hand to finance the development of a better line. No government money actually was spent, by the way, just a guarantee of the loans which bankers would not make to Chrysler otherwise. As it turned out, Chrysler repaid all of those loans ahead of time. Airlines have a major problem; they can't make money without subsidies unless they have a very special set of circumstances in place (e.g., one US airline isn't running in the red--Southwest. Southwest couldn't fly American's or Continental's routes at a profit, either). They have a product that no one will purchase at a price which permits the airlines to remain profitable, so they have a choice: Fly their planes 3/4 empty at a loss, or fly them full at a loss. There is no profitable middle ground. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Thu May 15 23:41:25 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:41:25 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Aussie Beers In-Reply-To: <3EC3BCFF.12DD774E@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <013301c31b33$1e5b7c60$f6422904@earthlink.net> Ma Foxti wrote: > Tell y'all what. If we find a decent place for a book party > for Miss Lois in the Los Angeles Area, preferably in the > Valley, we will have a Scotch-tasting party afterwards at > our house. I'm all for it! I'm still hoping *somebody* can give me info I need to go start talking bookstores into it. (Ok, I'm hoping for near ME - but if you like, we can pitch it to the Barnes & Noble near you, too) > Me? Hate Scotch. I'll be the one with the sweet stuff, the kind with > umbrellas and sticks of fruit. It's strawberry season here, mmm yum. That's ok - I'll pass on the alcohol entirely. Make me a virgin strawberry daiquiri? Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Thu May 15 23:44:01 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:44:01 -0700 Subject: Subject: [LMB] Subsidizing Transportation OT: In-Reply-To: <6A0897CE-871E-11D7-BA10-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <013501c31b33$7b329360$f6422904@earthlink.net> Jim Reynolds wrote: > Rant warning: Why is it an 'investment' when we help the > airlines/auto industries, and a 'subsidy' when we help > Amtrack? Oooh, I'm with you on that one. I get so peeved when I hear the anti-Amtrack stuff. Especially as so many are getting so anti-terrorist paranoid with the airlines. Nobody's going to hijack the train and crash it into the Pentagon! Much better way to travel. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Fri May 16 00:07:10 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: An aside on selfishness In-Reply-To: <20030515.152440.21459.83397@webmail05.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <20030515160638.F43892-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Thu, 15 May 2003, Kirsten Edwards wrote: > Regarding the motto: (paraphrased) "It's easier to ask > forgiveness than permission, but if you don't get caught > you won't need either" > > Damien asks: > "Shouldn't you crosspost first, then ask permission? :)" > > Or rather, crosspost first, and hope not to get caught. > > And if Damien, Malfoy, and er, Brian? don't see how > Milesian (or at least how tres Imp Sec) this whole > series of posts are, I do If I ever developed a Vorkosiverse persona, it would be Jacksonian. But failing that, ImpSec. ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Fri May 16 00:21:40 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030515230551.00ae23f8@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030515162055.T43892-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Thu, 15 May 2003, James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: > Brian Hurt wrote:- > > >I once told my boss that I thought it easier > >to seek forgiveness than permission, but that > >if he never figured it out I didn't need either. > > Malfoy asks for:- > > >Permission to crosspost? > > Malfoy, Malfoy - FIRST you crosspost, > THEN you beg forgiveness. > > James (FIRST you loot, THEN you burn) Bryant Brian is not an authority figure. ~malfoy, ^_~ ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From douglas.winston at srupc.com Fri May 16 00:18:00 2003 From: douglas.winston at srupc.com (douglas.winston at srupc.com) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 19:18:00 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Poetry In-Reply-To: <1053029657@srupc.com> Message-ID: <1053041135@srupc.com> "Thoughts on English Prosody" as published in the Miscellany section of _Thomas Jefferson_ ISBN 0-940450-16-X is an interesting discussion. For the first time, I regret learning not to say words when reading. It has allowed me the benefit of being able to read faster than I can talk but may have caused me to be deaf to poetry. R.A.Lafferty put in a bit about needing to learn to read slow in "Primary Education of the Camiroi". Does poetry help in learning to pronounce a foreign language? --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ "Pigmies placed on the shoulders of giants see more" --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Fri May 16 02:06:37 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 19:06:37 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Happy Birthday to... Martin Gill! Message-ID: <00c801c31b47$672aec00$78f3f5ce@puter> Oh me, oh my... I've let the timezone difference get away from me again, so that this'll be late in arriving. And now, we must wish the happiest of slightly late birthdays to Martin Gill, for his 27th, which is (er, was) today (um, yesterday, now, in England), May 15. Martin is another of our once-active listies who had to take haitus during the busy intensity of his last years at university. As he reported in December (during the time-luxury of the holidays), he had at last launched his career, and thought he'd have more time to participate in the list once more. Alas, that doesn't seem so. You're missed, Martin! Come back, come back... We hope your special day was filled with smiles and warmth and friends and family; with a sneak peek at the new Harry Potter ; and with all the fun you could fit into a day! Let there be chocolate. Let there be Tixie Dust. Let there be whatever brings you the greatest joy. Happiest day, Martin! ~ Kay, T(emp)BT, who needs a time-zone map o' the world on her wall, apparently, and half a dozen of those nifty old newsroom clocks, with appropriate labels.... ===== ~~O8:> --------________--------________-------- From jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu Fri May 16 02:13:44 2003 From: jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu (Jason Bontrager) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 20:13:44 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030515230551.00ae23f8@pop.luna.co.uk> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030515230551.00ae23f8@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EC43B48.1050009@mail.utexas.edu> James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: > > Malfoy asks for:- > > >Permission to crosspost? > > Malfoy, Malfoy - FIRST you crosspost, > THEN you beg forgiveness. > > James (FIRST you loot, THEN you burn) Bryant You left out 'rape' and 'kill'. 1)Rape 2)Kill (you really don't want to get these two backwards) 3)Pillage 4)Burn Chorus: Kill Babies! Ah, the things you learn in Boy Scouts...:-) Jason B. --------________--------________-------- From jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu Fri May 16 02:24:34 2003 From: jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu (Jason Bontrager) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 20:24:34 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) In-Reply-To: <3EC43B48.1050009@mail.utexas.edu> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030515230551.00ae23f8@pop.luna.co.uk> <3EC43B48.1050009@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <3EC43DD2.8000309@mail.utexas.edu> Jason Bontrager wrote: > > Ah, the things you learn in Boy Scouts...:-) > > Jason B. OK, that was gruesome and unnecessary, I apologize. Jason B. (now with Weird Al's _Those Were the Good Old Days_ stuck in his head) --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Fri May 16 02:59:35 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 21:59:35 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Responsibility Message-ID: <9d.392f084f.2bf5a007@aol.com> In a message dated 5/15/2003 4:09:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Legally, doesn't this depend on a lot of things? I know that in NC it does. A child up to seven years is not expected to be responsible for his own safety, let alone anyone else's. From seven to fourteen, certain things are expected, like some responsibility for one's own actions in endangering oneself or others. After fourteen, more responsibility is expected, until the child becomes an adult with adult responsibilities. So a lot depends on how old a child, and exactly what the actions were. Mary > "The distinction there is that children are seen as not responsible for > their actions and not to be treated as responsible." > --------________--------________-------- From theneals at xtra.co.nz Fri May 16 03:14:16 2003 From: theneals at xtra.co.nz (Anita Neal) Date: 16 May 2003 14:14:16 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Cordelia vs Quin, was Re: freedom and nudity In-Reply-To: <099801c31aa9$d6c84470$050d4b43@LAPTOP> References: <000001c3190b$e18329b0$3201a8c0@zamyatin> <1052813275.990.18.camel@orac> <099801c31aa9$d6c84470$050d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <1053051212.991.32.camel@orac> On Thu, 2003-05-15 at 18:18, Paula Lieberman wrote: > -- Paula Lieberman > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anita Neal" > > > > On Tue, 2003-05-13 at 16:55, David Klecha wrote: > > > >From the Desk of Damien Sullivan: > > > > > > > > more lasting satisfaction than pleasure for itself. Pleasure for its > > > > > > > > own sake is slavery. Pleasure in the service of a moral community is > > > > > > > > freedom. > > > > I think perhaps it's more that pleasure for its own sake is rather > > sterile. If humans are intended to exist in relationship with one > > another (and with God) then actions/attitudes which turn one's attention > > inward rather than outward are unproductive and ultimately lead nowhere. > > Like that bit in Memory where Miles is ruminating on the fact that his > > relationship with Elli has no future since she's really in love with > > Naismith and has no intention of settling with him as Vorkosigan. He > > I thought it was that Quin's attitude towards Barrayar was "I have NO desire > WHATSOEVER to be Mrs ANYBODY on that planet!" Oh, absolutely! I think it's just that she encapsulates the limitations of sex in Miles' Naismith persona: "Admiral Naismith's love-life was some sort of adolescent's dream: unlimited and sometimes astonishing sex, no responsibilities. Why didn't it seem to be working anymore? He loved Quinn, loved the energy and intelligence and drive of her [small snip] But in the end she offered him only ... sterility." (Memory, p35 in my ed. Middle of Chap 3) > It wasn't Miles she rejected, > it was the life of a Barrayaran woman she wanted nothing whatsoever to do > with. She joined up with a space mercenary force in the first place > presumably for adventure and a life of seeing the galaxy and earning her > way.... the attitudes towards women on Barrayar as seen by non-Barrayars > were that they were wives and daughters, exercised no direct power of their > own, were subject to a bunch of stupid bigoted restrictions, had to have the > permission of menfolk to go out of the house even, weren't allowed into the > military, etc. etc. etc. Quin -was- career military, use to risking her > life, and to being in command, and to giving orders, and to questioning > Stupid Stuff. On Barrayar her role had she accepted the offer of the > position of Lady Vorkosigan, would have have many more restrictions than she > had any interest in. > > Cordelia could accept the restrictions, for a number of reasons -- first, > she was considerably -older- than Quin, and had risen mostly as high as she > had been going to get in space exploration/space service to Beta. She had > been a captain and ship's commander, and given the structure of Betan > service, there wasn't really a higher level she was going to get to. And > then the universe changed on her -- Beta changed its space policies, > concentrating (IIRC) a lot less on exploration, and much more on -military- > activities. But, Cordelia was an exploration ship captain, not someone who > had joined up to be a warfighter -- unlike Quin, who had joined a commercial > mercenary business. Quin wasn't in service to her country, she was a > merc -- that's a major difference. Her commitment to Kline Station service, > wasn't there the way Mile, Aral, and Cordelia were committed to -service- > for their homes. > > That was the second reason -- Cordelia was committed to serving her > homeland, and later, her husband's homeland -- the actions of the government > of Beta with regards to Cordelia after she'd been a "guest" during wartime > of Barrayar, persuaded her that she couldn't stay on Beta anymore, and that > her country had turned on her. The view of the government of Beta was that > given the generally vile treatment that particularly Betan women had > received taken prisoner by Barrayarans -- the rapes, for example -- Cordelia > had to have come at least somewhat unhinged from the presumed despicable > inhumane treatment that she received. Plus, she had been at the mercy of > The Butcher of Komarr, considered one of the vilest of the vile Barrayarans. > For Cordelia to be defending him, she [according to Beta] had to have had > Patty Hearst Syndrome brainwashing happened to her. So anyway, > Cordelia -fled- to Barrayar, which she viewed as a safer and more welcoming > place for her than her homeland. > > In the case of Quin, she had had no such problems with her home. No one > was trying to stick her into psychiatric care against her will, and tell her > she was deluded, drug her, show her off unwillingly as a political tool, > etc. > > Third reason -- Aral versus Miles. As Cordelia was much older and more > experienced than Quin, so too was Aral much older than Miles. Aral was a > widower, with considerable tragedy in personal relationships in his life. > Miles had not gone through the experiences that had tempered Aral. He > hadn't seen his mother murdered before his eyes, hadn't declared personal > war on a corrupt insane emperor who was a cousin -- compare the relationship > of Gregor and Miles, with that of Yuri the Mad and Aral. Miles hadn't been > involved with a set of squalid rumors and scandals about his personal > life -- Aral had been involved in homosexual liaisons with scheming > manipulators, and had been manipulated into charging his beautiful young > wife with adultery, with devastating consequences when she suicided out of > shame and shamed pride. Aral thereafter was a very personally emotionally > wounded man. Cordelia, too, was emotionally wounded, but nowhere near to > such depths -- she'd been played with and dumped, but the scandal and > rumors, were nowhere as deep or devastating. Miles' vulnerabilities were > very different than those of Aral, and again, Aral was a much more mature > person than Miles, with a lot more tolerance and lattitude for personal > issues. I would also add that Miles has this tendency to subsume those around him. Would Quinn have just ended up with a bit part in the drama of Miles Vorkosigan's life? As long as he remained Naismith Quinn was safe, his equal and partner, but get her to Barrayar without her role as a soldier and Miles would start to go into the ascendant. Ekaterin, in her quiet way, is probably immune - I like her in part because she's the only person aside from Cordelia who really seems to have Miles' number and to be able to simply *quell* him with a well-chosen word. > > Fourth reason -- Duty: Cordelia had a bond with Aral in which Aral > had -depended- upon her in some ways for his sanity. Her arrival on > Barrayar pulled him out of passive suicidal drinking, Oh, I'm not so sure it was passive! :) Poor Aral was responding in the traditional way of his caste - retire to the estate and drink yourself to death. > and she was the one > who decided that Aral -must- take up the position of Regent pro-offered to > Aral by the Emperor. When she insisted, she was taking up at least half of > that duty herself -- there was a role beyond "wife and mother domestic and > social sphere" for her on Barrayar -- she had the position of in part > administering to the Empire, of holding part of the power that Aral held. > Yes, that wasn't true when she fled Barrayar -- but the nature of her > relationship with Aral, was that she ws -not- his subordinate, she was > counterpart to him, and parallel in position and power. I think Aral made it that way. And I think Cordelia's role in chopping off Vordarian's head certainly gave her street cred with the Barrayarans. Without that she might always have been regarded as Vorkosigan's Betan frill. > In the > relationship of Miles and Elli, Miles -was- Elli's superior. It was not a > relationship of equals, it was one unequal in power, and on Barrayar, it > would have been worse. On Barrayar, Cordelia was known as the woman who'd > held her own in military action with Barrayar, and the woman who'd killed > vicious sadistic Adm Vortuyer -- therefore, she was not some dispensible Vor > miss, she was a space wolf who happened to be female -- a combination which > some male Barrayarans couldn't credit, but others, were -extremely- wary of > and respectful of. Quin, however, there were no such records of action of. > She was an offworlder female, and not someone who Barrayarans would have run > into or known of, and had to notice thereby as having any Power. > > > realises that much as he loves her, enjoys sex with her etc, there is > > nothing there but sterility. > > > > > > > > I disagree -- to me, the issues were social and power. Miles was born into > the position of Count's heir, and born to the two most powerful and > respected people on Barrayar. Quin was not only a non-Barrayaran, but a > female one. The position she would have held as Miles' wife there, would > have been the position which Cordelia described in _Barrayar_ that Barrayar > and her father in law were trying to force-fit her into -- sit there and > breed lots of Vorkosigans, go shopping, go to social events.... but where > Cordelia was intimately involved in government operations and the training > of the next Emperor, there were no such occupations to have engaged Quin > were she to have accepted Miles' proposal. She would have been stuck > on-planet, with the social duties of a Vor wife, but rather less training in > such things than Cordelia, who'd grown up on a planet, had had -- Kline > Station wasn't a planet, and even though Betans live in domes, they're not > space stations.... With Quinn I guess it comes down to the conflict between Miles' two personas. Quinn is perfect for the little Admiral. But where does Miles' future lie? Part of the whole point of Memory is the emergence of Miles' new future as Lord Vorkosigan, Imperial Auditor. Quinn belongs to Miles' past. At the point where Her Ladyship decided Naismith had to go, Quinn was doomed.... > > > > The basic premise, though, is that if you seek pleasure as an end, > > > you'll always be seeking it, because it's fleeting and impermanent. > > > Seek the divine, on the other hand, and not only will you Be a Better > > > Person, so say the Christian traditionalists, but the pleasure you > > > encounter will uplift you all the more. > > > > Tossing a spanner, -- but don't Christians seek "the pleasure of service to > the Lord"??!! for its own sake?!! Not exactly, in my experience. It's more that one's priorities tend to undergo a radical reordering as one's experience of God deepens. We're works in progress. I confess that service is not my strong suit. (I mean, I haven't washed a single filthy beggar all week!!) On the other hand, I expect to progress in this area during the forty or more years I can realistically expect to live. > > > Or, to put it another way, Christians pursue the Giver rather than the > > gifts. And the really odd thing is that when you do that, the gifts tend > > to be thrown in free... > > > > > > > TTFN, > > > > Anita > > > > > > -- > > > Anita Neal > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold -- Anita Neal --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Fri May 16 03:19:55 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:19:55 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Standards Message-ID: <6d.112b45b5.2bf5a4cb@aol.com> In a message dated 5/15/2003 6:24:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Perhaps he didn't care for her enough. That was possibly not his fault--it was an arranged marriage, even though he was happy enough with it. Also, he couldn't help being attracted to military persons, whom on Barrayar were all men. However, he should have divorced her rather than dueling with her lovers; he knew it, and regretted it deeply. And I think part of what bothered him about her death was that he was never sure whether Piotr had either killed her or had her killed. He says that he could never bring himself to ask, because the answer might have been "yes." Anyway, isn't almost everyone trying to set impossibly noble standards here? Miles' shenanigans don't seem evil in the sense that they are premeditated intentions to hurt others or negligence due to not caring if he hurts anyone as long as he gets what he wants. So he lied to Taura. I defy anyone to feel constrained to tell the exact truth to someone who could crush him with one hand. Miles' desire to serve Barrayar leads him into trouble, but what a boring story it would be if he were perfect. I, for one, would not like to read some sort of twenty-first century science fiction version of the books about impossibly good children and adults that were popular in the nineteenth century. _Little Lord Vorkosigan_, perhaps? Or maybe _Elena Dinsmore._ Mary > Aral was contrite and forever after carried > the pain and guilt for his wife's death with him; and realized that what he > should have done as a decent person and someone who cared for his wife and > had taken on the duty and responsibility to cherish and protect her, was to > have overlooked/ignored/gotten over her infidelity. > --------________--------________-------- From theneals at xtra.co.nz Fri May 16 03:33:03 2003 From: theneals at xtra.co.nz (Anita Neal) Date: 16 May 2003 14:33:03 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) In-Reply-To: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20034425@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> References: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20034425@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> Message-ID: <1053052348.1208.36.camel@orac> On Thu, 2003-05-15 at 09:55, Jagoda, Lynette K wrote: > > It is so *easy* to judge those we dislike and slather mercy and understanding on those we love. I for one, not > having the ability to see into hearts and souls, am happy to abdicate "judging" to God. And even he puts the Mercy seat > above the Judgment seat according to Jewish/Christian scriptures. > > Miles knows this lesson. He learned it the hard way. Thinking about Haroche later in Memory "Try, I'm Sorry. Give up on > justification, go for mercy. You would be surprised what can happen." > > There is a grave danger in being judgmental. For by the measure that you judge, you shall eventually be judged. > > No in my life I pray not for justice, because when I am being honest with myself I know how badly I have failed. I have no > wish to lie in some of the beds I have made. Instead I pray for mercy and grace to learn from ways I have failed. > > And having ask for that mercy for myself, do my best to extend the same, even to people I don't like or understand. Like > Tien. I would do my best to not *enable* him to continue on destructive paths. But I also realize that sometimes when you > pull people out of messes, they learn and grow. We will never know if Tien was capable of having a "Memory Type" > redemption. He didn't have rich "Regent" for a father, unconditional love and support from extended family, nor get a > bazillionth chance to recoup and learn from the repercussions of his bad choices on how to deal with his physical "challenges". Like Miles did. > Lynette <--- Who one day is going to write up and post her dime store > analysis of "Tien" .... Thanks for your post - balm to the soul today. Looking forward to your analysis of Tien. -- Anita Neal --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Fri May 16 03:42:38 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 21:42:38 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Discount at Fictionwise for LMB books In-Reply-To: <005801c31acc$d9603f80$fb7bd2d2@yourveftt5u6s3> References: <200305130156.h4D1uXr5009271@lists.herald.co.uk> <005801c31acc$d9603f80$fb7bd2d2@yourveftt5u6s3> Message-ID: <20030516024238.GC30081@fireopal.org> On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 03:59:21PM +0530, Divya wrote: > Hello all, > > Fictionwise notified me that they have an offer going where Buywise club > members get an additional 30% off for all titles published directly by them. > This includes several of LMB's books, including the bundle that includes > Falling Free, Shards of Honor, Barrayar, The Warrior's Apprentice and the > Vor Game. > > http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook1277.htm > > If you are a Fictionwise customer, consider signing up for Buywise. If you > haven't tried them before, I strongly recommend them - not just for Lois's > books, but for their fine selection of ebooks in most formats, and generally > the best prices online. And be certain to ask either Divya or me for a recommendation - that saves you another bit! (10%, IIRC) -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Fri May 16 03:53:03 2003 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:53:03 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: An aside on "selfishness" -final rant, please ignore if not involved References: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F53702A7C9A1@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> Message-ID: <001701c31b56$4d6296b0$3201a8c0@mbaxis> On Wednesday, May 14, 2003 5:57 PM, Tracy MacShane wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michael Bauminger [mailto:mikebomb at myrealbox.com] > [snip] > > There was no way for the average person to become wealthy > > in the Soviet Union. As a corollary, manufactured goods > > were shoddy and basic essentials like food and toilet paper > > were in short supply. > > > > Society needs wealthy people, if for nothing else, for > > the motivation their example provides. [snip] > > I don't think there's any such corollary. There were > plenty of wealthy people in the USSR, the ones running > the government. I never said that there were no wealthy people in the Soviet Union.[1] I said that there was no way for the average person to become wealthy. There was no way to be "upwardly mobile", as the expression goes. > As well as the fact that the premium resources > were diverted to the elite, Premium resources are always diverted to the elite. Rich people in any capitalist country have better things than anyone else in those countries, whether those things are foods or manufatured goods. The thing to look at is the quality of what's left after the elite take their pick. Anyone in this country - or yours - with a dollar or two in their pocket can purchase soft white toilet paper. While I am sure that was true for Soviet apparatchiks, it was not true for everyone else that country. > problems with the economy were due to rigid > central planning and authoritarianism. I am not > in favour of either of those things (I am not a > Communist). Those two factors were not the only - in fact maybe not the worst - problems with their economy. Kibbutzim and other types of farming cooperatives do very well in other countries. The big difference between those cooperatives and the Soviet Union is that the profits, whatever they are, are eventually shared by the workers. Maybe no one person gets wealthy but everyone enjoys the fruits of their labors. The Soviet collective farms were simply failures. That "as long as the government pretends to pay us" phrase was a real force in the Soviet Union. > Regarding motivation, I'm suggesting there > might be other factors that could be > equally motivating: respect, prestige, celebrity. It's > just that wealth is symbolic shorthand for all those > things in our society Most people choose wealth before, if not over, the other motivating factors you mentioned. There is so much more you can do with a lot of money than you can do with a lot of respect. > - and is often unrelated to the actual skill or effort > expended. Unless money is inherited, in which case this will probaly apply to whichever ancestor actually earned it, there are basically only 4 ways to earn a lot of money: skill, effort, scarcity, and luck. Either you have a skill that is highly valued, you put in a lot of hard work, you have a very scarce talent or resource, or you simply get lucky. The first three happen much more often than the last one. > response> it would be fascinating to see what would > come of [an arrangement where you could direct what > programs would be supported by *your* tax money] I agree that it would be fascinating. Unfortunately it would almost certainly also be a failure. The phrase "bread and circuses" comes to mind. -- Michael [1] Though I doubt there were really all that many. --------________--------________-------- From JZBIRCHMIRE at aol.com Fri May 16 04:07:26 2003 From: JZBIRCHMIRE at aol.com (JZBIRCHMIRE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 23:07:26 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: [LMB]Permission v. Forgiveness Message-ID: <170.1eb5f552.2bf5afee@aol.com> The reasons I think Miles' command style worked were: 1. He has a massive superiority complex in that he has and believes he has only a couple of superiors. Yes he has superiors in the chain of command (which is insanely short for a field operative) but anybody except these people (Simon, Prime minister?) though they may be above him in actual rank he believes he is better mentally. 2. As for actual mental superiors out in the field I think he only thinks his father is better. 3. Galactic distances work in his favor, by the time he got an answer back to his query or new orders from above usually the mission would be finished the way he wanted and the new orders are moot. 4. Whatever mission he was on would be extremely embarrassing if it was found out if Barrayar was involved so it was not feasible to contact superiors. --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Fri May 16 04:19:56 2003 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:19:56 -0500 Subject: Frances Hodgson Burnett, was [LMB] Re: Standards Message-ID: <000f01c31b5a$0ad76240$0500000a@oemcomputer> CatMtn at aol.com CatMtn at aol.com Thu, 15 May 2003 22:19:55 EDT ...I, for one, would not like to read some sort of twenty-first century science fiction version of the books about impossibly good children and adults that were popular in the nineteenth century. _Little Lord Vorkosigan_, perhaps? Oh dear, oh dear. *I* would... The mind positively spins. Possibly a job for FanFicWoman; I have no time and no brain. (I have actually *read* _LLF_, back when, along with all the other Frances Hodgson Burnett I could lay hands on. Still looking for the one whose title I cannot for the life of me remember, but sort of a reverse LLF, young American go-getter comes in for a stodgy British estate... events do not unfold quite as expected.) The kid-books _LLF_, _A Little Princess_ and _The Secret Garden_ are about all that get reprinted these days, but she wrote a boatload of others of considerable charm for adults, some rather more brisk. Ta, L --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Fri May 16 04:33:42 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 20:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: Meg and I Message-ID: This afternoon, Meg came and rescued me from Ati, who has been holding me prisoner by hatching either the briefcase, the sweater/coat or the purse to keep me from going out the door. He was especially insistent because we had just had about an hour and a half of thunder, hail, lightning and heavy heavy rain. For some reason, when I opened the door, Meg was laughing, she must like the rain.... If you get a chance to get together with Meg for a day of dyeing or reading an advanced copy of the book, it is well worth it. She is a charming hostess and her cats are sweethearts. We headed down to her place to make pretty colors. This was the long delayed second dyeing day of experimenting that had been postponed from February by Bill dying. First day had been sun-print dyeing, this was to be the quilt scrap dyeing. Since I don't do quilting, I was just going to be having fun with colors and Meg would have the quilting. She had pre-mixed the colors, she had cut sections of white cotton fabric up to be dyed, she had t-shirts, socks, and a quick trip to the fabric store yielded canvas grocery bags for each of us, an apron for me and a hat for her. It was a blast! I cannot express how much fun we had. Shake the bottle, squirt some color in the plastic tub, add some water, stir. Add some fabric, soak, squeeze, add some soda ash solution and rinse. Wash with synthrapol, some vinegar and fabric softener and place in the dryer. Watch the colors change, see how the mixtures come out, did they match the q-tip test or were they different? I'm not going to remember all the combinations, but she has some magenta and blue, melon and orange, melon and undyed, terra cotta, rose and red with green edges, several colors of purples, two pale blues and pale greens, and at least one orange and yellow combination quilt fabric, plus one in dull maroon and red that was dubbed 'rude dude' during the tie-dying process. She has a pair of socks that would hide nicely in a tropical jungle, a pair that would do better at a mossy lakeside and a third pair that are two colors of subtlely different purples that are wonderful, and a pair of pale terra cotta ones that are quite amazing. With a capacity for hiding and being overlooked, so somehow they have inbuilt stealth capabilities. We experimented with stencils. It works better when you put the soda ash solution on first and it helps if the canvas of the grocery bags isn't so heavy it fails to take up enough soda ash solution. She has a gorgeous purple t-shirt, I have a fabulous four colors of blue sleeping-in t-shirt and she has a wonderful baseball cap that is almost a faded denim blue. We'd still be at it if I didn't have to be home by dark tonight. While we were waiting for the dryer to disgorge the technicolor products of our labors, Meg served a wonderful corned beef roast, noodles and peas and onions for dinner. She is an excellent cook. Susan in Seattle --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Fri May 16 04:43:00 2003 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:43:00 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Burnett revisited Message-ID: <001701c31b5d$43836960$0500000a@oemcomputer> What a little searching on Amazon can find! The name of the dimly-remembered book is almost certainly _T. Tembarom_. I even found the melodrama about the awful transatlantic marriage and the rescue by the smarter sister (_The Shuttle_, for the insatiably curious.). Alas, it's only available as an e-book for s system I don't have. I'd even more dimly remembered that one as being by Eleanor Glyn (sp?), but nay. Glyn is more blood-and angst-on-the-tiles and less good-sense-triumphs than Burnett. Heh. L. --------________--------________-------- From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Fri May 16 05:08:55 2003 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 00:08:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Burnett revisited In-Reply-To: <001701c31b5d$43836960$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: My favourite FHB book when growing up was _Racketty-packetty house_, a short fantasy about a dollhouse and its inhabitants, who save themselves when their home is threatened. Regrettably less well-known. Must admit I hadn't seen any adult books by her ever. Must investigate. On Thu, 15 May 2003, Lois McMaster Bujold wrote: > What a little searching on Amazon can find! > > The name of the dimly-remembered book is almost certainly _T. Tembarom_. I > even found the melodrama about the awful transatlantic marriage and the > rescue by the smarter sister (_The Shuttle_, for the insatiably curious.). > Alas, it's only available as an e-book for s system I don't have. I'd even > more dimly remembered that one as being by Eleanor Glyn (sp?), but nay. > Glyn is more blood-and angst-on-the-tiles and less good-sense-triumphs than > Burnett. -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Fri May 16 05:15:52 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 04:15:52 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: Permission v Forgiveness OT: Message-ID: <20030515.211635.15136.67945@webmail06.lax.untd.com> Jason fine tunes the order of operations: 1)Rape 2)Kill (you really don't want to get these two backwards) 3)Pillage 4)Burn Chorus: Kill Babies! I thought that was, Chorus: "Queens' Guard Men are We" Kirsten (who was one, for a bit) ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From iosef at gothic.net.au Fri May 16 05:26:46 2003 From: iosef at gothic.net.au (I) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:26:46 +1000 Subject: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) In-Reply-To: <3EC43DD2.8000309@mail.utexas.edu> References: <3EC43B48.1050009@mail.utexas.edu> <5.1.1.6.2.20030515230551.00ae23f8@pop.luna.co.uk> <3EC43B48.1050009@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030516142453.00b64020@mail.gothic.net.au> At 11:24 AM 16/05/2003, you wrote: >Jason Bontrager wrote: >>Ah, the things you learn in Boy Scouts...:-) >>Jason B. > >OK, that was gruesome and unnecessary, I apologize. > >Jason B. (now with Weird Al's _Those Were the Good Old Days_ stuck in his >head) Weird Al's???? The only one of these I know is from The Musical "Damn Yankees" Ray Walstons version for the film was wonderful. Iestyn --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Fri May 16 05:42:17 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:42:17 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030516142453.00b64020@mail.gothic.net.au> Message-ID: > > Jason B. (now with Weird Al's _Those Were the Good Old Days_ > > stuck in his head) > > Weird Al's???? The only one of these I know is from The Musical "Damn > Yankees" Ray Walstons version for the film was wonderful. I cannot see a musical involving the lines "Torturing rats with a hacksaw, and pulling the wings off of flies" ever making it as a hit. A Weird Al track on the other hand makes sense :0) Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Fri May 16 05:59:31 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 00:59:31 -0400 Subject: [LMB] poetry... References: <4199755.1052942669373.JavaMail.adamek@mac.com> Message-ID: <017201c31b67$f0c63990$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Ek" > Meddle not in the affairs of filkers, for they are not subtle, and your name can scan to Greensleeves. > Not all are unsubtle, however, and not all write songs, not even to the tune of Greensleeves. And here I try to write a filk to scan a certain author's name, The author's name begins with L and to Greensleeves the scansion's quite rocky! Greensleeves does not fit all words, Greensleeves has a dearth of rhyme Greensleeves to try to scan to Lois' name is not working! To try to scan this author's name, to Greensleeves is a major pain For Lois McMaster Bujold's a name that to Greensleeves has very poor scansion! But since Adam insisted so, upon the world that it would go, The scansion's rocky and it's quite lame, and badly to Greensleeves scans Lois' name! --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Fri May 16 06:02:02 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 01:02:02 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) Message-ID: <022501c31b68$4b025a60$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Jason Bontrager >> James (FIRST you loot, THEN you burn) Bryant > >You left out 'rape' and 'kill'. James is a gentleman, you see. A sad handicap, I know, but he gets by somehow... Marna. --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Fri May 16 06:04:54 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 01:04:54 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) Message-ID: <025701c31b68$b105c540$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> THAT was unnecessarily sharp, and had I seen the followup would never have occured. Sorry, Jason et al. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From mike at dendarii.co.uk Fri May 16 07:07:31 2003 From: mike at dendarii.co.uk (Michael Bernardi) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:07:31 BST Subject: [LMB] Lois McMaster Bujold Mailing List Weekly FAQ FAQ Message-ID: <31939@dendarii.co.uk> Last-Modified: 5 November 2002 Version: 2.0.2 Being a Pointer to where to find Answers to Frequently Asked Questions ====================================================================== This document was compiled by Michael Bernardi, to allow subscribers to the Lois-Bujold mailing list to easily find where the FAQs are. Having this FAQ posted weekly to the list then allows the posting of the OTHER FAQs to be every two months and thus reduce list traffic. Three FAQs have been developed since this list was created in October 1994. The Bio FAQ has been deleted, as all the information previously given here, can be found at "The Bujold Nexus" in the "Author Info" and "Book Info" sections. This document was originally created in December 1998. The FAQs ======== Lois McMaster Bujold Mailing List Administrivia FAQ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_admin.html Last Updated: 29 October 2002 Explains how to join and use the Lois-Bujold mailing list, hosted at http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold Lois McMaster Bujold Mailing List FAQ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_lst.html Last Updated: 29 October 2002 This document attempts to answer Frequently Asked Questions which occur on the Mailing List about Lois McMaster Bujold and her work. These are the questions that occur on list regularly like "Where can I get "Dreamweaver's Dilemma"? Now includes the Off-topic Discussions and Excessive Quoting FAQ. Lois McMaster Bujold List PLOT Frequently Asked Questions ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_faq.html Last Updated: 29 October 2002 This document attempts to answer Frequently Asked Questions which occur on the Mailing List about Plot lines that occur in the work of Lois McMaster Bujold. This includes answers from Lois herself. The Bujold Nexus: The Lois McMaster Bujold Homepage ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.com Last Updated: 5 November 2002 This is the Official site to find information about Lois McMaster Bujold on the Web. Lois has provided some information herself, and other material has come from other fans. The Bujold Nexus Overflow Site ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Bujold.html Last Updated: 28 October 2002 This contains all the stuff that isn't really appropriate at the main site. ie fan fiction, fan art, photos, and filk. Please send details of any material such material to the address indicated. Note I am not responsible for the mail server hardware OR software. Both these are under the control of Mel Harper . Any feedback on this post cheerfully received by Michael Bernardi . -- Michael Bernardi mike_at_dendarii.co.uk --------________--------________-------- From megj at nwlink.com Fri May 16 05:00:06 2003 From: megj at nwlink.com (Meg Justus) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 21:00:06 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Tien and Shame (was freedom and nudity) References: <20030515092303.S43892-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <024e01c31b6b$bb987f90$d1e94b43@meg> > On Thu, 15 May 2003, Peter Newman wrote: > > > It seems odd to me that Tien is considered unforgivable while > > Bothari, who did far worse, is forgiven. Tien was just trying > > to protect his name and his honor (although his actions don't > > demonstrate much honor). I think it's got a lot to do with perceived ability. Bothari is portrayed as not having much control over himself, being at best borderline sane and all that. Also, he's been tortured and used and pushed to the edge over and over again. Tien, OTOH, is theoretically sane, and supposedly responsible. And no one's been torturing *him.* Megaera who, like Malfoy, was once married to a Tien -- and to a sorta Miles -- I hope Ekaterin's second time round goes better than mine did --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Fri May 16 06:59:02 2003 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 01:59:02 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) References: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20034425@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> Message-ID: <008501c31b70$4195f6a0$3201a8c0@mbaxis> On Wednesday, May 14, 2003 5:55 PM, Jagoda, Lynette K wrote: > The only difference between Miles and Tien on this > score really is Miles usually got away with it. > Tien didn't. I cannot agree. Miles' judgments may have been potentially poor (i.e., he took risks) but Tien's judgments were simply poor. He took bribes. He basically stole Ekaterin's scrimped savings and gambled them away on a speculative investment. There is no way to pay back a bribe, period. There can be restitution for theft, but it only mitigates, not expunges, the original crime. Miles, on the other hand, did his best not to lie, until Memory. He never said that the land was not radioactive; it was Tav Calhoun's (at least I think it was his) business to ask, or check. Miles was also not selling land for more than it was worth; he was using it as collateral for a loan, which is a completely different thing. Money is almost always loaned in amounts that really bears no relationship to the value of the collateral involved. The amount of the loan is based on the borrower's ability to repay, not the value of the collateral. The collateral is just the thing that allows the lender to sleep at night. There are so many other points I want to make but I just do not have the time right now. I will have to let this stand as is. -- Michael --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Fri May 16 07:42:27 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:42:27 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) References: <2AB3EBD8DDEE334DA882618248781D20034425@pnlmse25.pnl.gov> <008501c31b70$4195f6a0$3201a8c0@mbaxis> Message-ID: <024501c31b76$51ef1620$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Bauminger" > On Wednesday, May 14, 2003 5:55 PM, Jagoda, Lynette K > wrote: > > > The only difference between Miles and Tien on this > > score really is Miles usually got away with it. > > Tien didn't. > > I cannot agree. > > Miles' judgments may have been potentially poor (i.e., he took > risks) but Tien's judgments were simply poor. He took bribes. He > basically stole Ekaterin's scrimped savings and gambled them away > on a speculative investment. There is no way to pay back a bribe, > period. There can be restitution for theft, but it only > mitigates, not expunges, the original crime. > > Miles, on the other hand, did his best not to lie, until Memory. > He never said that the land was not radioactive; it was Tav > Calhoun's (at least I think it was his) business to ask, or > check. Miles was also not selling land for more than it was > worth; he was using it as collateral for a loan, which is a > completely different thing. Money is almost always loaned in Also, if the Vorkosigans had the necessary funds (hmm, I wonder, thinking about Mark....) they could have applied the funds to cleaning the land up -- but they didn;t have the capital for that; Aral and Cordelia didn't have the money for replacing a roof, much less the funds requires for cleaning up the radioactive land, and reclaiming it for human utility. > amounts that really bears no relationship to the value of the > collateral involved. The amount of the loan is based on the > borrower's ability to repay, not the value of the collateral. The > collateral is just the thing that allows the lender to sleep at > night. > As someone pointed out, Miles was 18 at the time. When Miles lied in Memory, it was after he'd been revived, and was afraid of permanently deleterious, debilitating effects, which would force his retirement on disability from the military. Since being in the military was the only career he had ever wanted/aspired to, he was willing to do all sorts of things to be allowed to stay in -- and he suspected strongly that he'd be kicked out if the full extent of his condition and his symptions, got reported. Basically, he was trying to preserve what he saw as his life. Shards showed what happened to Miles' father when he'd lost his compass (I called it "passive suicide" because death by drinking oneself into a stupor day after day, is not actively suicidal -- it's not running a car into a bridge abutment, or trying intentionally for a fatal overdose, it's in the nature of not doing anything to -avoid- dying, and self-destructive but not fatal behavior. Drinking oneself to death Aral-style, takes months. It's not active suicide, it's slow self-destruction, which sometimes can be stopped. Alcoholics can last years as alcoholics. --------________--------________-------- From iosef at gothic.net.au Fri May 16 07:57:54 2003 From: iosef at gothic.net.au (I) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:57:54 +1000 Subject: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.1.20030516142453.00b64020@mail.gothic.net.au> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030516165214.00b58558@mail.gothic.net.au> At 02:42 PM 16/05/2003, you wrote: > > > Jason B. (now with Weird Al's _Those Were the Good Old Days_ > > > stuck in his head) > > > > Weird Al's???? The only one of these I know is from The Musical "Damn > > Yankees" Ray Walstons version for the film was wonderful. > >I cannot see a musical involving the lines > >"Torturing rats with a hacksaw, and pulling the wings off of flies" > >ever making it as a hit. > >A Weird Al track on the other hand makes sense :0) The one I know has: "The rack was in fashion, The plagues were my passion and Torching the sinners was the latest craze." and "That glorious morn Jack the Ripper was born" as song by the devil looking back on his heyday. Iestyn (and this was in the 50s) --------________--------________-------- From raye_j at yahoo.com Fri May 16 07:58:51 2003 From: raye_j at yahoo.com (Raye Johnsen) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 23:58:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Tien and Shame (was freedom and nudity) In-Reply-To: <024e01c31b6b$bb987f90$d1e94b43@meg> Message-ID: <20030516065851.99995.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com> --- Meg Justus wrote: > > On Thu, 15 May 2003, Peter Newman wrote: > > > > > It seems odd to me that Tien is considered > unforgivable while > > > Bothari, who did far worse, is forgiven. Tien > was just trying > > > to protect his name and his honor (although his > actions don't > > > demonstrate much honor). > > I think it's got a lot to do with perceived ability. It has to do with perceived ability, but more than that, it has to do with personal honesty and acceptance of self. That's the reason why *I* don't hate Bothari but loathe Tien. Bothari literally *couldn't* behave rationally. However - and herein lies his saving grace - he recognized this failing within himself and asked for help. He sought a support role under others who he and society deemed to be rational, and he asked (Cordelia specifically, but by unspoken reliance upon them, Aral, Vorrutyer and Miles) for moral judgements to be made on his behalf. Tien, on the other hand, was a supposedly rational adult whom *also* knew his judgement might be faulty. Rather than seek any kind of help - ask for a second opinion on risky decisions, make investments for the future, or even get medical treatment that might stabilize his condition (because if treatment were available for Nikki, doesn't it follow that there were measures that could be applied to adult patients? Maybe they couldn't reverse the damage already done but probably they could halt the progress of the disease?) - he chose to close his eyes to this unpalatable fact and to hide his head in the sand. This was a decision that had not been made at any point when his reason was in doubt. Bothari faced and dealt with his problems. Tien did not. To my mind, that's the difference that makes one a person worthy of respect and the other a person we do not want to know. Raye ===== raye_j at yahoo.com livejournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/windtear http://www.thejohnsens.com/index.html "It means, I'm in charge... where are you going?" - C-3PO (to R2D2), 'Star Wars: Attack of the Clones' __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From pnewman at gci.net Fri May 16 08:25:16 2003 From: pnewman at gci.net (Peter Newman) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 23:25:16 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Tien References: <200305152008.h4FK84r5024994@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EC4925C.1080003@gci.net> > CatMtn at aol.com wrote > lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > how much of Tien's lack of interest in saving for the future, >> and how much of his activities at short term improvement were >> predicated on his possible thoughts of suicide before he could >> make it to the long term? His brother did it and Ekaterin was >> afraid that he might. >> >> It seems to me that Tien regarded his Vorzohns dystrophy as >> something that he had to pay to cure now, before any symptoms >> could emerge and without letting anyone know. > Isn't that an awfully selfish and short-sighted view for a man with a wife > and son? Yes, from our point of view but if you think like an old fashioned Barrayaran it's not so clear. If Tien suicides before the dystrophy becomes obvious he protects his family name (not just Ekaterin and Nikki, but also his siblings, their children, etc.) from horrible disgrace. In his job he'd have a good opportunity to make it look like a work related accident, thus securing Ekaterin a pension. If he failed to make it look accidental its still better that Nikki be poor than that he be known as a mutie. Considering what Miles went through he may even be right about that and since Tien knew that Ekaterin's family could take care of her it's likely they would have gotten by. Therefore his death would be an ideal solution (from a Time of Isolation mindset). > Especially since the son has inherited the problem from him--or > does he plan to kill Nikki when he suicides and leave Ekaterin alone and > stranded? Also--Ekaterin did not see any signs of Tien being anything but in > denial about the whole thing. Ekaterin is not able to judge Tien as effectively as she might if she did not (rightfully) hate him for his behavior. --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri May 16 08:30:05 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 00:30:05 -0700 Subject: Frances Hodgson Burnett, was [LMB] Re: Standards In-Reply-To: <000f01c31b5a$0ad76240$0500000a@oemcomputer> References: <000f01c31b5a$0ad76240$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <20030516073005.GA4716@ofb.net> On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 10:19:56PM -0500, Lois McMaster Bujold wrote: > kid-books _LLF_, _A Little Princess_ and _The Secret Garden_ are about all If The Secret Garden_ is what I remember, I thought it was good. Girl, mystery door, garden with some cranky old guy hidden away? Or was it a young guy? Well, I haven't actually read it in years and year, along with Heidi and Remi and such. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Fri May 16 08:34:51 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 08:34:51 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Flattery Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516083028.00b0ca18@pop.luna.co.uk> Marna sent:- >James is a gentleman, you see. >A sad handicap, I know, but he >gets by somehow... And then apologised to Jason. I didn't see it as sharp - just as flattery. And flattery will get her anywhere.... James - packing for Prague --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Fri May 16 08:42:05 2003 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 03:42:05 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2373 - 19 msgs References: <85FFB5A0-866B-11D7-A29E-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00a401c31b7e$a62be670$3201a8c0@mbaxis> On Wednesday, May 14, 2003 8:23 PM, James Reynolds wrote: > Michael Bauminger wrote: > > > My second thought was, "They have laid off 3,500 people > > and it has had no effect on city services. If they lay > > off another 10,000 it probably will still not have any > > effect on city services.[1] That means that there were > > more than 13,000 people being paid by the public purse > > - out of my pocket, and the pockets of my neighbors - > > that were in effect doing nothing for me or anyone > > else. Talk about a waste of money!" > > Michael, this is rotten logic. > > Show that laying off those hypothetical people will not > effect services before you conclude that there were > 13,000 people wasting your money. Of course. If there are serious consequences to city services, it will be obvious that those people were not a waste of money. However, based upon the number of people on this city's payroll, and based on the absolute non-effect of laying of 3,000 of them, I am projecting that the city will be able to lay off 10,000 more without serious consequences. There will probably be some denigration in some of the services the city provides, but I project that it will be almost unnoticeable to the average resident. If my projections hold true, then those 13,000 city employees will have been a waste of money for years. -- Michael --------________--------________-------- From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu Fri May 16 08:47:04 2003 From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (Andrew Lambdin-Abraham) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 02:47:04 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Flattery In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516083028.00b0ca18@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <9644B328-8772-11D7-95D4-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu> On Friday, May 16, 2003, at 02:34 AM, James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: > And flattery will > get her anywhere.... > > James - packing for Prague Is Marna interested in going to Prague? :D Andrew --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri May 16 08:52:41 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 00:52:41 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2373 - 19 msgs In-Reply-To: <00a401c31b7e$a62be670$3201a8c0@mbaxis> References: <85FFB5A0-866B-11D7-A29E-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> <00a401c31b7e$a62be670$3201a8c0@mbaxis> Message-ID: <20030516075241.GA9123@ofb.net> On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 03:42:05AM -0400, Michael Bauminger wrote: > without serious consequences. There will probably be some > denigration in some of the services the city provides, but I Perhaps 'degradation' instead of 'denigration'? I think you're the one denigrating them. :) > project that it will be almost unnoticeable to the average > resident. If my projections hold true, then those 13,000 city > employees will have been a waste of money for years. Mmm. If NYC had services for the handicapped (some cities have special minibuses for the very immobile), or for rape victims, loss of those services would not be noticed by the average resident. Would they be a waste of money? -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Fri May 16 09:03:59 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 04:03:59 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Tien References: <200305152008.h4FK84r5024994@lists.herald.co.uk> <3EC4925C.1080003@gci.net> Message-ID: <025a01c31b81$b543b3b0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Newman" > > CatMtn at aol.com wrote > > > lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > > > Isn't that an awfully selfish and short-sighted view for a man with a wife > > and son? > > Yes, from our point of view but if you think like an old fashioned > Barrayaran it's not so clear. If Tien suicides before the dystrophy > becomes obvious he protects his family name (not just Ekaterin and Would it? Nikki would -still- have the syndrome and suffer from it, Ekaterin would be minus her savings still, Tien's illegalities, corruption, and malfeasance would likely jeopardize away of a widow's pension to Nikki, and if anything came out, the level of disgrace posthumously would be even greater. > Nikki, but also his siblings, their children, etc.) from horrible > disgrace. In his job he'd have a good opportunity to make it look > like a work related accident, thus securing Ekaterin a pension. > > If he failed to make it look accidental its still better that Nikki > be poor than that he be known as a mutie. Considering what Miles Again, how would this protect Nikki, who's got the defect? It's no kindness to Nikki, especially, because it's treatable and correctable with Nexus medical technology. It's -not- going to come out later?! > went through he may even be right about that and since Tien knew > that Ekaterin's family could take care of her it's likely they would > have gotten by. Therefore his death would be an ideal solution (from > a Time of Isolation mindset). > > > Especially since the son has inherited the problem from him--or > > does he plan to kill Nikki when he suicides and leave Ekaterin alone and > > stranded? Also--Ekaterin did not see any signs of Tien being anything but in > > denial about the whole thing. > > Ekaterin is not able to judge Tien as effectively as she might > if she did not (rightfully) hate him for his behavior. But, Tien did NOT act "honorably" -- he was a corrupt official, he "invested" worse than the Counts Vorkosigan who were known for investments that failed -- not because the ideas were flawed, but because happenstance caused the investments by the Counts Vorkosigan go sour [perhaps Mark's safety from that fate, is because he's not likely to become Count Vorkosigan....] -- in bad quality "investments and squandered money that should have been kept saved on risky bad quality "investments.... his treatment of his wife was dishonorable, etc. Looking at Tien from an old fashioned Barrayaran viewpoint, he was an unfit husband and unfit father, and -defective-. Hiding the bad genetics was not something that old-fashioned Barrayarans were likely to value/appreciate/respect -- consider that "-Barrayar was the only planet where when shooting was going on, people rushed into -into- the shooting to get in the way, instead of running from it-" [not exact words, of course... from Warriors Apprentice late in the book, when the shooting starts on Barrayar in Gregor's presence and the rush was on to shield Gregor from the firing and grab the shooter(s), IIRC]. --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Fri May 16 09:04:10 2003 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 04:04:10 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2373 - 19 msgs References: <031e01c31a7b$ac6f9800$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Message-ID: <00ad01c31b81$bc113000$3201a8c0@mbaxis> On Wednesday, May 14, 2003 8:48 PM, Marna Nightingale wrote: > Hard as I am trying to just let this thread die, I cannot > resist noting that, in response to an article about how > the Ontario Ministry of Health has not responded to the > SARS situation as well as it might, someone wrote in and > suggested that everybody who voted Tory last time should > pool their nice new tax cuts and hire their own > microbiologists. I am sorry, Marna, but this is apples and oranges. We are talking about different levels of government, for one thing. For another, there is a big difference between a department with 10,000 low level employees and a different department with 7 researchers. You can lay off 500 of the low level employees without affecting the first department much; laying off 1 of the 7 researchers is a major blow. -- Michael --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Fri May 16 09:33:48 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 04:33:48 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2373 - 19 msgs Message-ID: <02a001c31b85$e030ca00$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Michael Bauminger >I am sorry, Marna, but this is apples and oranges. Um. I'm sorry, Michael, but I don't think it was your post to which I was replying. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Fri May 16 11:13:22 2003 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:13:22 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2373 - 19 msgs References: <02a001c31b85$e030ca00$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Message-ID: <00ba01c31b98$0e88ef60$3201a8c0@mbaxis> On Friday, May 16, 2003 4:33 AM, Marna Nightingale wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Bauminger > > > I am sorry, Marna, but this is apples and oranges. > > Um. I'm sorry, Michael, but I don't think it was your > post to which I was replying. No, it was not. However, the post you replied to was itself a reply to one of mine. -- Michael --------________--------________-------- From foxfire at sc.rr.com Fri May 16 12:31:39 2003 From: foxfire at sc.rr.com (foxfire at sc.rr.com) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 07:31:39 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Burnett revisited In-Reply-To: <001701c31b5d$43836960$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3EC493DB.26405.E528E@localhost> > The name of the dimly-remembered book is almost certainly _T. Tembarom_. I > even found the melodrama about the awful transatlantic marriage and the > rescue by the smarter sister (_The Shuttle_, for the insatiably curious.). > Alas, it's only available as an e-book for s system I don't have. So here I am quaking at my temerity in de-lurking on a Very Large List, but if Lois or anybody else needs to know, there's a good selection of FHB (safely out of copyright) at the On-Line Books Page, http://digital.library.upenn.edu/books/. It includes the two mentioned above, in nice boring text files. After I found that page and read a wider selection of her writing, I spent *days* giggling at the thought of how the very strict Christian school which forced Fauntleroy down my throat would have reacted to some of her more obscure books. "The Lost Prince", in particular. :-) -Avery --------________--------________-------- From RosinaRowantree at aol.com Fri May 16 14:47:53 2003 From: RosinaRowantree at aol.com (RosinaRowantree at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:47:53 EDT Subject: [LMB] Cutbacks in State/City OT: Message-ID: <195.1a5f6fe6.2bf64609@aol.com> Michael Bauminger wrote: "However, based upon the number of people on this city's payroll, and based on the absolute non-effect of laying of 3,000 of them, I am projecting that the city will be able to lay off 10,000 more without serious consequences. There will probably be some denigration in some of the services the city provides, but I project that it will be almost unnoticeable to the average resident. If my projections hold true, then those 13,000 city employees will have been a waste of money for years." Sometimes the effects of economies isn't seen for several years. Delaying or even cancelling a rolling programme of maintenance or repairs might not impinge on the general public until the building collapses. But it doesn't mean that those maintenance workers were a waste of money. And quite often the employees are laid off, but the work has to be done, so the whole task is "out-sourced" often taking over the very same staff that have just been "cut", but that's OK, cos the wages bill has been reduced. And the out-sourced maintenance isn't checked as rigorously, or quality control itself is out-sourced, and the building still collapses. Rosina --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Fri May 16 14:55:39 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 15:55:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] poetry OT: In-Reply-To: <20030514215855.GB16543@ofb.net> Message-ID: <20030516135539.70927.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Sullivan a icrit : > So, recalling Good Omens, what happens if you leave a tape of Greensleeves in > the car for two weeks? "Queensleeves"? > Aack! You, sir, are an eeeevvviiiillll man! Joy ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu Fri May 16 15:08:54 2003 From: jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu (Jason Bontrager) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:08:54 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) In-Reply-To: <025701c31b68$b105c540$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030516090725.024bf378@mail.utexas.edu> At 12:04 AM 5/16/2003, Marna Nightingale wrote: >THAT was unnecessarily sharp, and had I seen the followup would never have >occured. Sorry, Jason et al. > >Marna. No problem. Sometimes my "Strange sense of humor" is not inhibited (soon enough) by such limiting factors as...taste:-) Jason B. --------________--------________-------- From jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu Fri May 16 15:07:12 2003 From: jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu (Jason Bontrager) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:07:12 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030516142453.00b64020@mail.gothic.net.au> References: <3EC43DD2.8000309@mail.utexas.edu> <3EC43B48.1050009@mail.utexas.edu> <5.1.1.6.2.20030515230551.00ae23f8@pop.luna.co.uk> <3EC43B48.1050009@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030516090453.02451c68@mail.utexas.edu> At 11:26 PM 5/15/2003, I wrote: >At 11:24 AM 16/05/2003, you wrote: >>Jason Bontrager wrote: >>>Ah, the things you learn in Boy Scouts...:-) >>>Jason B. >> >>OK, that was gruesome and unnecessary, I apologize. >> >>Jason B. (now with Weird Al's _Those Were the Good Old Days_ stuck in his >>head) >Weird Al's???? The only one of these I know is from The Musical "Damn >Yankees" Ray Walstons version for the film was wonderful. I haven't read all the followups to my post, so someone else may have already shared the lyrics. If not however, they can be found here: http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/weirdalyankovic/goodolddays.html The best part is that the song is a folksy/John Denverish tune that makes you think of pleasant evenings sitting on the porch...then you realized what the lyrics are actually *saying*:-). Jason B. --------________--------________-------- From Robert at WarnickeLittler.com Fri May 16 15:56:04 2003 From: Robert at WarnickeLittler.com (Robert Warnicke) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 07:56:04 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Matrix Reloaded Message-ID: <005e01c31bbb$46a21ed0$6e01a8c0@D6FL1B21> Ohhhhh, Ahhhhhhhhh A little too much CGI in places, but a way better way to spend my afternoon instead of working. Oooohhhhhhh Of course, I will have to go again to figure out what any of it means... maybe tomorrow. :) -------- Robert W --------________--------________-------- From Pouncer at aol.com Fri May 16 16:04:52 2003 From: Pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:04:52 EDT Subject: [LMB] Waste ot: Message-ID: James B: > > What really irritates me, and I suspect many > Libertarians who would actually not mind so much > if their resources were taken to do good, is that > too often the money is demonstrably WASTED. > Or misapplied. Given infinite funds, I might want my local water treatment center to lower concentrations of both arsenic AND various harmful micro-parasites. Given finite funding, I would certainly prefer to focus on the latter problem first. Similarly I might apply limited funds to the problem of getting all K-3rd graders reading English properly before I funded dropout remediation programs at the 10-12th grade levels (on the hope that kid-readers are less likely to BECOME teen-dropouts.) It's not that my low-priority efforts are wasteful, but that the "public-choice economics" of setting priorities inescapably allocate funds in suboptimal fashion. As above, trying to satisfy two (or more) vocal constituencies, and failing both. I also have a problem with municpal powers lobbying higher jurisdictions for financial support on purely local issues. When Dallas wants all Texans to fund a new professional football stadium or convention center, for instance; or when New York City chooses to pay for city residents to assemble in Albany to demonstrate support for rent control, perhaps the only economic idea ever to acheive unanimity of opinion among all economists, and that opinion all bad. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/14/nyregion/14RENT.html That some communities successfully privatize water-treatment systems, school systems, sporting facilities and other traditionally "government" responsibilities is what tilts me toward the libertarian mood, now and then. Sadly the organized / formal libertarian political parties over-focus on national issues and priorities over municipal questions -- who should we elect dog-catcher and how much is that function worth? -- tends to make the party ineffective. --------________--------________-------- From selene at earthlink.net Fri May 16 16:52:26 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 08:52:26 -0700 Subject: [LMB] poetry... Message-ID: <3EC50939.5A6B1A8C@earthlink.net> Paula Lieberman thinks that... >Not all are unsubtle, however, and not all write songs, not even to the >tune of Greensleeves. >And here I try to write a filk to scan a certain author's name, >The author's name begins with L and to Greensleeves the scansion's quite rocky! >Greensleeves does not fit all words, Greensleeves has a dearth of rhyme >Greensleeves to try to scan to Lois' name is not working! It can work, you just have to find the right spot in the scansion. VOR GAME was full of woe, CIvil camPAIGN was my delight For books with diverse delights do TRY Lo-is MACmaster BU - jold! Susan Fox-Davis/Ma Foxti selene at earthlink.net --------________--------________-------- From bhurt at spnz.org Fri May 16 17:22:15 2003 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:22:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) In-Reply-To: <20030515162055.T43892-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2003, Azalais Malfoy wrote: > Brian is not an authority figure. > For which people should be eternally gratefull. Brian --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Fri May 16 17:26:08 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:26:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030516092040.N49438-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Fri, 16 May 2003, Brian Hurt wrote: > On Thu, 15 May 2003, Azalais Malfoy wrote: > > > Brian is not an authority figure. > > For which people should be eternally gratefull. Heh. I was a teacher, briefly, a teaching assistant at a fairly large university while I was in grad school. I had the weirdest reviews / evaluations. There was no bell curve. People either loved me or hated me. ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From bhurt at spnz.org Fri May 16 17:40:33 2003 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:40:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) In-Reply-To: <024501c31b76$51ef1620$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: What I find unforgiveable about Tien is not the risks he took, nor even so much the lies he told. It's the damage he did to those closest to him. Yeah, Miles lies like a cheap rug early and often- but he does in such a way as to build up or expand the people around him. According to Ekaterin at least, Tien kept the people around him small, constrained. Hang out with Miles and you find yourself doing things you never thought you could do- facing down armed Komarran terrorists, dealing with renegade Cetagandan Ba, needing to terraform an district, maybe ending up in charge of a mercenary fleet, who knows? But you will grow- wether you want to or not. Hang out with Tien, and you find yourself shrinking. Losing friends, not making them. And being faced with no challenge larger than just working around Tien for even the most trivial things. It was poor form to gamble away Ekaterin's savings on a risky investment. But it was even poorer form to not allow Nikki the medical treatment he needed, even if it meant some embarassement. Brian --------________--------________-------- From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu Fri May 16 17:31:19 2003 From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (Andrew Lambdin-Abraham) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:31:19 -0500 Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) In-Reply-To: <20030516092040.N49438-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: On Friday, May 16, 2003, at 11:26 AM, Azalais Malfoy wrote: > I was a teacher, briefly, a teaching assistant at a fairly large > university while I was in grad school. I had the weirdest > reviews / evaluations. There was no bell curve. People either > loved me or hated me. That's not a surprise to me in the slightest. Most people I know tend to get evaluated that way, leaving aside what I know of you in person. Andrew --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Fri May 16 18:02:17 2003 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 13:02:17 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) References: <20030516092040.N49438-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <3EC51999.3CA901EA@erols.com> > > On Thu, 15 May 2003, Azalais Malfoy wrote: > > > > > Brian is not an authority figure. > > > > For which people should be eternally gratefull. > > I visited my mother a few days ago. She told me how my baby sister's sixth grade teacher tearfully complained to her that my sister (11 years old?) was taking over her class. Sound like Miles? Now, me, I just go all Ivan when confronted with structured activity. Alex H. --------________--------________-------- From bhurt at spnz.org Fri May 16 19:08:11 2003 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 13:08:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) In-Reply-To: <20030516092040.N49438-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Azalais Malfoy wrote: > I was a teacher, briefly, a teaching assistant at a fairly large > university while I was in grad school. I had the weirdest reviews / > evaluations. There was no bell curve. People either loved me or > hated me. > I never liked bell curves. They always struck me as being laziness on part of the teacher. I mean, theoretically at least, couldn't a teacher be able to inspire all of their student's to do A level work? I mean, the point isn't to compete against all the other students, the point is to learn what you're being taught. With a curve, no matter how good the teacher did or how smart the students were, a certain percentage always flunks- and conversely no matter how bad the teacher does and no matter how stupid the students are, a certain percentage always gets an A? With curves, it's possible for a student in one class to get an A, while a student in another class who learned more, and did better work, gets an F. Because the first student did better than anyone else in their class, while the second student did worse than everyone else in their class. Brian --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Fri May 16 19:01:32 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 13:01:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: [LMB]Permission v. Forgiveness In-Reply-To: <170.1eb5f552.2bf5afee@aol.com> References: <170.1eb5f552.2bf5afee@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030516180132.GA3182@fireopal.org> On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 11:07:26PM -0400, JZBIRCHMIRE at aol.com wrote: > 1. He has a massive superiority complex in that he has and believes he has > only a couple of superiors. Yes he has superiors in the chain of command > (which is insanely short for a field operative) but anybody except these > people (Simon, Prime minister?) though they may be above him in actual rank > he believes he is better mentally. Miles -> Illyan -> Gregor >From _The Vor Game_, very near the end: > "Hm," Illyan said. "And yet ... who shall I assign you to now? Which > loyal officer gets his career destroyed next?" > > Miles thought this over. "Why don't you assign me directly to > yourself, sir?" > > "Thanks," said Illyan dryly. > > "I didn't mean-" Miles began to sputter protest, stopped, detecting > the oblique gleam of humor in Illyan's brown eyes. {italic} Roasting > me for your sport, are you?{end italic} > > "In fact, just that proposal has been floated. Not, needless to say, > by me. But a galactic operative must function with a high degree of > independence. We're considering making a virtue of necessity-" a > light on Illyan's comconsole distracted him. ... Illyan and Gregor - Illyan reluctantly, Gregor at least somewhat more enthusiastically, seem to have agreed with your evaluation. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Fri May 16 19:08:20 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:08:20 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) Message-ID: <04c201c31bd6$30bab6c0$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Brian Hurt To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Date: Friday, May 16, 2003 1:56 PM Subject: Re: OT: Re: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) >On Fri, 16 May 2003, Azalais Malfoy wrote: > >> I was a teacher, briefly, a teaching assistant at a fairly large >> university while I was in grad school. I had the weirdest reviews / >> evaluations. There was no bell curve. >I never liked bell curves. They always struck me as being laziness on >part of the teacher. I mean, theoretically at least, couldn't a teacher >be able to inspire all of their student's to do A level work? I mean, the >point isn't to compete against all the other students Sometimes it is. The Psychology Department at U of O is explicitly a competitive department; everybody gets curved in every class for the express purpose of narrowing down the numbers for the grad program. That being said, I don't like it either. Marna. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Fri May 16 19:15:02 2003 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:15:02 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan's Betan frill Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030516141132.00a0c110@pop3.norton.antivirus> I'll note that this phrase scans [not perfectly, but it's close enough for filk] to the title phrase of the Heather Alexander song "Brannigan's Special Ale." It's a lively tune, and, if anyone would care to write it, feel free. Jerrie, secreting plot-hooks & ideas the way lawyers secrete slime [r, vvf, elsewhere] --------________--------________-------- From JoatSimeon at aol.com Fri May 16 19:24:59 2003 From: JoatSimeon at aol.com (JoatSimeon at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:24:59 EDT Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) Message-ID: <18c.1a6d5c8d.2bf686fb@aol.com> I mean, theoretically at least, couldn't a teacher >be able to inspire all of their student's to do A level work? -- only in Lake Woebegon, where all the children are above average. One of the basic problems with higher education in the US is that too many people get it. A large percentage of the population is simply too stupid to benefit by post-secondary ed., and having them around makes teaching those who can really benefit harder; it's like sticking damper rods into a nuclear reaction. Plus, in this degenerate age, there's immense pressure to avoid hurting the feelings of dullards by telling them they're wasting their time and should go pick lettuce or the equivalent. This corrupts the whole educational process. --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Fri May 16 19:26:47 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:26:47 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030516182647.25157.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Hurt a icrit : > What I find unforgiveable about Tien is not the risks he took, nor even so > much the lies he told. It's the damage he did to those closest to him. Yes, exactly! I've been meaning to say something like that for a while. Tien's villainy, for me, stems not so much from his peculation, but from the unforgiveable way he treats Ekaterin. Having had to clench my teeth and deal with a friend who wouldn't give up just such a slimeball for many years, I am particularly sensitive to such things--the way he would belittle her in front of others, dismiss her concerns, etc. Joy Lanterman ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Fri May 16 19:31:27 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:31:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030516183127.74317.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Hurt a icrit : > I never liked bell curves. They always struck me as being laziness on > part of the teacher. I mean, theoretically at least, couldn't a teacher > be able to inspire all of their student's to do A level work? Yes, theoretically. Theoretically, all the students would come from stable, caring homes, with families that value education and teach the children a love learning. Theoretically, classes would be small enough that teachers could connect personally with all the kids, too. Ahem. Don't get me started, eh? > I mean, the > point isn't to compete against all the other students, the point is to > learn what you're being taught. That said, I don't care for curves either. I used to figure, hey, the curve implied everyone else was worthy to be compared with me, which obviously wasn't the case, right? ;-) Joy Lanterman ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Fri May 16 19:39:30 2003 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:39:30 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Poetry Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030516140835.00a084e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Douglas Winston asks: >Does poetry help in learning to pronounce a foreign language? Good question! In a word, yes. Music is even better, especially if you can memorize it and sing along. There are few things as good to give you an ear for the sounds, phrasing, word order, structure, etc. of the language. If you can hear it right in your head, then when you read, you'll hear it right there too. Later, when you have something to say, you'll sound good saying it. Have fun! Jerrie, who[se mother says she] sings more on-key in French than in English --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Fri May 16 20:03:19 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 15:03:19 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Little Lord Vorkosigan Message-ID: <18d.1a2e18fa.2bf68ff7@aol.com> In a message dated 5/16/2003 3:01:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Actually, I did love FHB in my childhood. _The Secret Garden_ was one of my favorite books for years (possibly because I, too, was often referred to as "Mistress Mary, quite contrary" like Mary Lennox.) Still, I would hate to see Miles bowdlerized into a Burnett story. Although---- it's really something to think about--- Mary > Oh dear, oh dear. *I* would... The mind positively spins. Possibly a > job for FanFicWoman; I have no time and no brain. (I have actually *read* > _LLF_, back when, along with all the other Frances Hodgson Burnett I could > lay hands on. Still looking for the one whose title I cannot for the life > of me remember, but sort of a reverse LLF, young American go-getter comes > in > for a stodgy British estate... events do not unfold quite as expected.) > The > kid-books _LLF_, _A Little Princess_ and _The Secret Garden_ are about all > that get reprinted these days, but she wrote a boatload of others of > considerable charm for adults, some rather more brisk. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Fri May 16 20:08:31 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 15:08:31 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Als of the weird variety Message-ID: <12c.2a62011d.2bf6912f@aol.com> In a message dated 5/16/2003 3:01:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: What about "Weird Al Yankovic," (sp?) who had a polka band, I think sometime back in my distant youth? Mary > Weird Al's???? The only one of these I know is from The Musical "Damn > Yankees" Ray Walstons version for the film was wonderful. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Fri May 16 20:10:23 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 15:10:23 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: LMB as Greensleeves Message-ID: <63.1d09862a.2bf6919f@aol.com> In a message dated 5/16/2003 3:01:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > And here I try to write a filk to scan a certain author's name, > The author's name begins with L and to Greensleeves the scansion's quite > rocky! > Greensleeves does not fit all words, Greensleeves has a dearth of rhyme > Greensleeves to try to scan to Lois' name is not working! > > To try to scan this author's name, to Greensleeves is a major pain > For Lois McMaster Bujold's a name that to Greensleeves has very poor > scansion! > But since Adam insisted so, upon the world that it would go, > The scansion's rocky and it's quite lame, and badly to Greensleeves scans > Lois' name! It fits in the line "Who but my lady Greensleeves?" Mary --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Fri May 16 20:26:41 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 15:26:41 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Private industry vs. Public works Message-ID: <1cd.9aba9b7.2bf69571@aol.com> In a message dated 5/16/2003 3:12:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Sometimes private industry does the same sort of stupid things. A company my husband worked for tore down an old factory building that was attached to its main office building. They sold the bricks for salvage. Then, when it was discovered that there was no brick veneer on the main office building on the wall that had divided it from the factory (I guess nobody had checked until the building was rubble which had been carted away) they had to buy the same bricks back from the salvage company at considerably more than they had sold them for in the first place--- Also, sometimes there really isn't any saving in the below-described situation. Actually, it sometimes costs more for less service. Mary > Sometimes the effects of economies isn't seen for several years. Delaying > or > even cancelling a rolling programme of maintenance or repairs might not > impinge on the general public until the building collapses. But it doesn't > > mean that those maintenance workers were a waste of money. And quite often > > the employees are laid off, but the work has to be done, so the whole task > > is "out-sourced" often taking over the very same staff that have just been > "cut", but that's OK, cos the wages bill has been reduced. And the > out-sourced maintenance isn't checked as rigorously, or quality control > itself is out-sourced, and the building still collapses. > --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Fri May 16 20:31:27 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 15:31:27 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien v. Miles Message-ID: <1e9.8f36659.2bf6968f@aol.com> In a message dated 5/16/2003 3:12:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Wow! You said it all. The stuff the rest of us have been waltzing around, and trying to express. This is the really important difference, all right. Mary > What I find unforgiveable about Tien is not the risks he took, nor even so > much the lies he told. It's the damage he did to those closest to him. > Yeah, Miles lies like a cheap rug early and often- but he does in such a > way as to build up or expand the people around him. According to Ekaterin > at least, Tien kept the people around him small, constrained. Hang out > with Miles and you find yourself doing things you never thought you could > do- facing down armed Komarran terrorists, dealing with renegade > Cetagandan Ba, needing to terraform an district, maybe ending up in charge > of a mercenary fleet, who knows? But you will grow- wether you want to or > not. Hang out with Tien, and you find yourself shrinking. Losing > friends, not making them. And being faced with no challenge larger than > just working around Tien for even the most trivial things. > > It was poor form to gamble away Ekaterin's savings on a risky investment. > But it was even poorer form to not allow Nikki the medical treatment he > needed, even if it meant some embarassement. > --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Fri May 16 20:35:28 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 15:35:28 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Kids taking over Message-ID: <74.2e3fae38.2bf69780@aol.com> In a message dated 5/16/2003 3:12:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Personally, I was kicked out of a privately run kindergarten for the same offense. It doesn't seem to have left many scars. I guess if there's a power vacuum, some of us tend to move into it. Mary > I visited my mother a few days ago. She told me how my baby sister's > sixth grade teacher tearfully complained to her that my sister (11 > years old?) was taking over her class. Sound like Miles? --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Fri May 16 20:42:57 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 15:42:57 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Bell curves Message-ID: <1ce.9cb484f.2bf69941@aol.com> In a message dated 5/16/2003 3:12:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: Speaking as an ex-teacher, neither did I. If more than one or two kids failed any test, I always blamed myself for not communicating the information better, threw out that test grade (except for the ones who wanted to keep it) and retaught the material and retested later. Also, I often assigned some of the other kids to tutor the kids that did make failing grades, in the hope that they could explain it on kid terms better than I was doing. It usually worked. Anyway, isn't the Bell curve supposed to include all the population? Including the dropouts and the kids in special ed and the kids that are too handicapped to be in school at all? So how can they justify saying that a certain percentage of each class is "supposed" to fail? And what about schools that group kids by ability? Mary > I never liked bell curves. They always struck me as being laziness on > part of the teacher. I mean, theoretically at least, couldn't a teacher > be able to inspire all of their student's to do A level work? I mean, the > point isn't to compete against all the other students, the point is to > learn what you're being taught. With a curve, no matter how good the > teacher did or how smart the students were, a certain percentage always > flunks- and conversely no matter how bad the teacher does and no matter > how stupid the students are, a certain percentage always gets an A? With > curves, it's possible for a student in one class to get an A, while a > student in another class who learned more, and did better work, gets an F. > > Because the first student did better than anyone else in their class, > while the second student did worse than everyone else in their class. --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Fri May 16 20:57:14 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 15:57:14 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) Message-ID: <003101c31be5$593f7ea0$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> > I mean, theoretically at least, couldn't a teacher >> be able to inspire all of their student's to do A level work? Theoretically, one can define A level work, too. Now, in hard sciences, one can. In any case where you are using an objective marking format, one can. But "an A paper" is a little harder to define. Also, sometimes the teacher/prof messes up. It does happen. Sometimes an exam or assignment is WAY too easy. Sometimes an exam or assignment is WAY too hard. Or just really badly written, and you end up looking at 50 variously well done pieces of something other than what you thought you had asked them to do. If every single mark in the class is under 50, this does NOT mean that your entire class has been replaced by pod-people of unusually low intelligence. If every single mark in the class is over 80, this does not mean that you have suddenly inspired them all to become geniuses. It means you wrote a crappy test, or did a really bad job covering a section of the material, or both, and you are going to need to figure out what went wrong and either curve it or reduce how much it counts for overall. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Fri May 16 21:01:35 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 13:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Kids taking over In-Reply-To: <74.2e3fae38.2bf69780@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030516130106.A49438-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Fri, 16 May 2003 CatMtn at aol.com wrote: > Personally, I was kicked out of a privately run kindergarten for the same > offense. It doesn't seem to have left many scars. I guess if there's a > power vacuum, some of us tend to move into it. What else is it for? ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri May 16 21:02:40 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 13:02:40 -0700 Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) In-Reply-To: References: <20030516092040.N49438-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <20030516200240.GA32512@ofb.net> On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 01:08:11PM -0500, Brian Hurt wrote: > I never liked bell curves. They always struck me as being laziness on > part of the teacher. I mean, theoretically at least, couldn't a teacher > be able to inspire all of their student's to do A level work? I mean, the Yeah, that's my attitude. Caltech tended to have mercy curves. There were standards, and if you met them you'd get the grade of that standard. But if the class as a whole did less well than the teacher expected you might get a higher grade than the original standard would say. Operating Systems (grad level) here at Indiana U was like that too. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From Pouncer at aol.com Fri May 16 21:11:08 2003 From: Pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:11:08 EDT Subject: [LMB] Miles or Tung? Message-ID: <1d9.9c314a5.2bf69fdc@aol.com> Brian > I mean, theoretically at least, couldn't a teacher > be able to inspire all of their student's to do A level work? I mean, the > point isn't to compete against all the other students, the point is to > learn what you're being taught. Sort of depends on whether you presuppose that a teacher is best suited to "inspire" a student, (as Miles brings out the pre-existing engineering ability and courage in Baz or the latent logistics and combat ability in Elena or the military formality and competence in Bel -- "heros spring up around me like weeds") or whether you start from the notion that a teacher is a deep well or font of information from which a student may sip or quaff as it suits him. (Tung, offering Miles quotes from old military commanders and lessons from ancient battles and dialog about wormhole strategy and political aspects of mercenary contracts...) It's obvious Tung believes that getting Thorne and Auson to pull together is a more miraculous accomplishment than being able to quote Vorkosigan on Komarr. So the data-provider thinks the inspiration-provider is more special. Miles, on the other hand, seems to think Tung is the key to the whole Dendarrii scam -- up until _BoI_, at least. I suppose it's like having a two-parent family. Having a school with both motivators and data-sources is probably better than a school with only one sort of "teacher". --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Fri May 16 21:21:33 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 15:21:33 -0500 Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) In-Reply-To: References: <20030516092040.N49438-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030516151936.02e022e0@mail.iqcisp.com> At 01:08 PM 5/16/2003 -0500, Brian Hurt wrote: >I never liked bell curves. They always struck me as being laziness on >part of the teacher. I mean, theoretically at least, couldn't a teacher >be able to inspire all of their student's to do A level work? I mean, the >point isn't to compete against all the other students, the point is to >learn what you're being taught. With a curve, no matter how good the >teacher did or how smart the students were, a certain percentage always >flunks- and conversely no matter how bad the teacher does and no matter >how stupid the students are, a certain percentage always gets an A? With >curves, it's possible for a student in one class to get an A, while a >student in another class who learned more, and did better work, gets an F. >Because the first student did better than anyone else in their class, >while the second student did worse than everyone else in their class. I've never been in a class which was _literally_ graded on a curve, in the sense that the teacher determinedly gives the three worst-grading students an F, the three best an A, etc. I agree with the reasons you describe for not doing it that way. OTOH I have been in classes where a teacher would look at the grade distribution on a specific assignment or test, observe for example that the highest earned grade was a 65 (out of a hundred) and curve the grades upward somewhat. I gather this happened fairly routinely in college in the hard sciences (no pun intended) like chemistry or physics. Louann, who thereby passed chemistry (and changed majors). --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Fri May 16 21:32:58 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 15:32:58 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Private industry vs. Public works In-Reply-To: <1cd.9aba9b7.2bf69571@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030516152845.02e039c0@mail.iqcisp.com> (rearranged to bottom posting) > Sometimes the effects of economies isn't seen for several years. Delaying > or > even cancelling a rolling programme of maintenance or repairs might not > impinge on the general public until the building collapses. But it doesn't > > mean that those maintenance workers were a waste of money. And quite often > > the employees are laid off, but the work has to be done, so the whole task > > is "out-sourced" often taking over the very same staff that have just been > "cut", but that's OK, cos the wages bill has been reduced. And the > out-sourced maintenance isn't checked as rigorously, or quality control > itself is out-sourced, and the building still collapses. At 03:26 PM 5/16/2003 -0400, CatMtn at aol.com wrote: >Also, sometimes there really isn't any saving in the below-described >situation. Actually, it sometimes costs more for less service. My husband has worked in human resources (personnel) at several companies, a department that often gets considered for outsourcing or actually outsourced in an attempt to save money. Apparently the usual outcome is that instead of paying for X employees to do the work, they wind up paying for Y outsource contractors plus Z liason people within the company who actually know what the data means and is used for instead of just processing it on an assembly line basis. X normally turns out to have cost less than Y + Z. Louann --------________--------________-------- From Pouncer at aol.com Fri May 16 21:41:21 2003 From: Pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:41:21 EDT Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling ot: Message-ID: <7a.3feb985b.2bf6a6f1@aol.com> Steve: > >One of the basic problems with higher education in the US is that too many > >people get it. Well, the other, MORE basic problem with ELEMENTARY education is that too many children, don't get it. I mean, some researchers find that in some districts, up to a third of the 10 year olds, having een in the system for four solid years K-3rd grade, can't yet read in any meaningful way. And by that age, they ain't liable to larn how, nohow. Here in Texas we test all our 3rd graders so's we can tell how many of 'em are gonna drop out after repeatin' 10th grade, so as to forecast how big the High School (and the football stadia) are gonna have to be in time to get a whoppin' bond issue passed. There are advocates of trying to help pre-schoolers as young as three or four years old begin reading, testing at half-past-first-grade, and bending over backwards thru flaming hoops, if necessary, to ensure all kids start 2nd grade able to read. These people are generally regarded as hopeless fanactics, idealists, and/or radical dangerous right-wing homeschoolers. Jefferson proposed that every U.S. child get free public education up to third grade, after which the taxpayer would support the top ranked students in each grade (say, about 1 in 25 at each successive level) and all others would have to pay their own way. > > >A large percentage of the population is simply too stupid to benefit by > >post-secondary ed., and having them around makes teaching those who can > >really benefit harder; it's like sticking damper rods into a nuclear > >reaction. > In a trollish mood today, Steve? But playing along, how is it different in post-secondary classrooms than in first grade, where, for instance, my six year old who could already read, add, substract, name colors, tell time, make change, carry a tune and identify polygons was to be perforce seated in a classroom of 22 "average" six year olds most of whom would be approaching most of those skills for the very first time? NOT, mind you, that any of them were stupid. Just that some kids don't get quite as much support at home in book-larnin' as mine tend to. Morons in the classroom:: boron in the heavy water -- I dunno as I'd restrict that diagnosis to the already once diploma'd. It's hard to make random elements fizz. Anyhow, assume for the nonce that half the kids now entering U.S. public first grade classrooms drop out before completing secondary (12th grade, High School) programs in such subjects as civics, fundamentals of biology or chemistry, world history, or maybe a non-English language. Assume, further, that this could be instantly "fixed" via early intervention so that, say, only one-eighth of the next bunch of first graders did finish a meaningful secondary education program. What would it do the lettuce-picking industry; much less the post-secondary education market? --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Fri May 16 21:49:36 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:49:36 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) References: <20030516092040.N49438-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <20030516200240.GA32512@ofb.net> Message-ID: <035701c31bec$aa4b76d0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> I had a final in a graduate level math class in which zero was a passing grade.... Points got taken off for wrong answers. Never heard the term "mercy curve." The Educational Establishment has been unloved by me for a very long time. What are the purposes it's suppose to serve? Warehouse minors so they don't compete in the labor force? "Educate" people -- but what does that mean -- does it mean as Chip [Samuel R.] Delany asserts, that the goal is to produce complacent factory workers conditioned to work on assembly lines and such hour after hour day after day without revolt or poor productivity? Is it to produce Original Thinkers? It is to produce responsible Citizens who participate in civil and political and community life? It is to produce Consumers who will buy whatever is advertised in front of them? Etc..... If the goals include "provide the inmates with a set of tools for something" then the metric should be, "has the person received the toolkit and is the person able to use it competently?" What, again, are the desired -goals- of the educational system? Bell curves are antithetical to the idea of "there are these minimum levels of competency and knowledge appropriate for a citizen to have, to be a contributing, productive member of society." There are people who aren't productive members of societys -- criminals, vandals, people whose lives are spent years at a time in hospital beds in comas or in other stuff of incapacitation.... and are a drain on the resources of everyone else. Education doesn't apply, or has failed in such cases (that is, someone in a coma because they drove 90 mph on a surface street and slammed into a wall and suffered permanent brain damage, is someone who the lessons "don't drive dangerously" failed to implant sufficiently in).... -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Sullivan" > On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 01:08:11PM -0500, Brian Hurt wrote: > > > I never liked bell curves. They always struck me as being laziness on > > part of the teacher. I mean, theoretically at least, couldn't a teacher > > be able to inspire all of their student's to do A level work? I mean, the > > Yeah, that's my attitude. Caltech tended to have mercy curves. There were > standards, and if you met them you'd get the grade of that standard. But if > the class as a whole did less well than the teacher expected you might get a > higher grade than the original standard would say. Operating Systems (grad > level) here at Indiana U was like that too. > --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Fri May 16 21:53:37 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:53:37 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling ot: Message-ID: <002501c31bed$39c95200$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Pouncer at aol.com >In a trollish mood today, Steve? *nibble* *nibble* *ptui* It's *very* stale... Marna. --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Fri May 16 22:19:06 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 22:19:06 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Ambitions Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516221324.01f59998@pop.luna.co.uk> Miles has an ambition that Aral, in at least some circumstances, will be remembered not for what he accomplished but as Miles Vorkosigan's father. Do you suppose that the next "worst thing" that Lois will do to him is to ensure that he is remembered as Ekaterin's husband? James --------________--------________-------- From bhurt at spnz.org Fri May 16 22:32:13 2003 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:32:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:- Selfishness) In-Reply-To: <20030516200240.GA32512@ofb.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 01:08:11PM -0500, Brian Hurt wrote: > > > I never liked bell curves. They always struck me as being laziness on > > part of the teacher. I mean, theoretically at least, couldn't a teacher > > be able to inspire all of their student's to do A level work? I mean, the > > Yeah, that's my attitude. Caltech tended to have mercy curves. There were > standards, and if you met them you'd get the grade of that standard. But if > the class as a whole did less well than the teacher expected you might get a > higher grade than the original standard would say. Operating Systems (grad > level) here at Indiana U was like that too. > True story: OK, the intro science programs at the U of Iowa (at least when I went there) always had two versions. You took General whatever if you were going into whatever as a degree, and Modern whatever if you were just taking it for a GER (General Education Requirement). So General Astronomy was what the Astro majors took, everyone else took Modern Astronomy (aka Stars for Jocks). So one semester I ended up in General Astronomy for the GER. Unfortunately, that was the year Professor Emeritus (I forget the guy's name) got stuck teaching both classes- both Modern *and* General astronomy. And what the putz did was write a killer test to send all of those whiny wanna-be astronomers in General running home to mommy- and give the same test to modern and just curved the sucker. The test was 24 multiple-guess questions A-D. A score of 6 in General was a C-, if you guessed randomly you likely passed. Note the prof didn't choose randomly- if you simply selected 'B' for all questions you got 8 of 24 right, and a B-. Note that you didn't need to read the test yet to get a B-. Me, I'm proud. I got 14 of 24 right on that first test- making me second best in a class of 300-some. The lady who beat my score I later learned had been an astronomy major for a couple of years before switching majors (don't get me started on U regs). She got 16 of 24. Brian --------________--------________-------- From bhurt at spnz.org Fri May 16 22:33:48 2003 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:33:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Kids taking over In-Reply-To: <20030516130106.A49438-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Azalais Malfoy wrote: > On Fri, 16 May 2003 CatMtn at aol.com wrote: > > > Personally, I was kicked out of a privately run kindergarten for the same > > offense. It doesn't seem to have left many scars. I guess if there's a > > power vacuum, some of us tend to move into it. > > What else is it for? > Power vacuums suck. Brian --------________--------________-------- From bhurt at spnz.org Fri May 16 22:43:44 2003 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:43:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] Ambitions In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516221324.01f59998@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 2003, James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: > Miles has an ambition that Aral, > in at least some circumstances, > will be remembered not for what > he accomplished but as Miles > Vorkosigan's father. > > Do you suppose that the next > "worst thing" that Lois will > do to him is to ensure that > he is remembered as Ekaterin's > husband? Worse: Aral Jr.'s Father. Think about it... Brian --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Fri May 16 22:34:28 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Kids taking over In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030516143349.C49438-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Fri, 16 May 2003, Brian Hurt wrote: > On Fri, 16 May 2003, Azalais Malfoy wrote: > > > On Fri, 16 May 2003 CatMtn at aol.com wrote: > > > > > Personally, I was kicked out of a privately run > > > kindergarten for the same offense. It doesn't seem to have > > > left many scars. I guess if there's a power vacuum, some > > > of us tend to move into it. > > > > What else is it for? > > Power vacuums suck. Me. But I like it. ~malfoy, wondering if that's TMI :p ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Fri May 16 22:36:05 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:36:05 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling ot: References: <7a.3feb985b.2bf6a6f1@aol.com> Message-ID: <036601c31bf3$289bd510$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: > Steve: > > > >One of the basic problems with higher education in the US is that too many > > >people get it. > > Well, the other, MORE basic problem with ELEMENTARY education > is that too many children, don't get it. I mean, some researchers > find that in some districts, up to a third of the 10 year olds, having > een in the system for four solid years K-3rd grade, can't yet read in > any meaningful way. And by that age, they ain't liable to larn how, > nohow. Here in Texas we test all our 3rd graders so's we can tell That's not true.... Charlemagne was far into adulthood when he learned to read and write. He never did it all that well, but he was in a culture where only a fraction of the populace ever became literate, and his did has his duties as Emperor of an empire that extended across most of Europe, and didn't have modern transportation systems and communications to help run it. > how many of 'em are gonna drop out after repeatin' 10th grade, > so as to forecast how big the High School (and the football stadia) > are gonna have to be in time to get a whoppin' bond issue passed. > There are advocates of trying to help pre-schoolers as young as > three or four years old begin reading, testing at half-past-first-grade, I've heard that some kids aren't ready for schooling at that age--no, I don't know from personal experience, I was one of those kids who was a spontaneous reader before I was four, between having an older sister pushing alphabet blocks at me, and sitting in my mother's lap being read to, I started to recognized letters within words and then matching read words to page words. > and bending over backwards thru flaming hoops, if necessary, to > ensure all kids start 2nd grade able to read. These people are > generally regarded as hopeless fanactics, idealists, and/or radical > dangerous right-wing homeschoolers. > The prodigies get heard about, but what about those who aren't? What's the average age I wonder, at which homeschooled kids learn to read? > Jefferson proposed that every U.S. child get free public education > up to third grade, after which the taxpayer would support the top > ranked students in each grade (say, about 1 in 25 at each successive > level) and all others would have to pay their own way. > > > > >A large percentage of the population is simply too stupid to benefit by > > >post-secondary ed., and having them around makes teaching those who can > > >really benefit harder; it's like sticking damper rods into a nuclear > > >reaction. [snip] > But playing along, how is it different in post-secondary classrooms > than in first grade, where, for instance, my six year old who > could already read, add, substract, name colors, tell time, > make change, carry a tune and identify polygons was to be perforce seated in > a classroom of 22 "average" six year olds > most of whom would be approaching most of those > skills for the very first time? NOT, mind you, that any of Only 22?! One spends the time being -extremely- bored and wishing one were somewhere else.... > them were stupid. Just that some kids don't get quite as > much support at home in book-larnin' as mine tend to. > Morons in the classroom:: boron in the heavy water -- Some kids, though, really are not all that bright, no matter how much the parents may value education (or not). And some kids have the oppposite problem, of wanting to learn and having parents who are averse to it.... > I dunno as I'd restrict that diagnosis to the already once > diploma'd. It's hard to make random elements fizz. > > Anyhow, assume for the nonce that half the kids now entering That figure seems -really- high to me. Where I was, which was a factory town, the dropout rate was a lot lower than half.... probably on the order of less than ten percent. There was a Trade high school, which may have helped with that some, but.... > U.S. public first grade classrooms drop out before completing > secondary (12th grade, High School) programs in such > subjects as civics, fundamentals of biology or chemistry, > world history, or maybe a non-English language. Assume, > further, that this could be instantly "fixed" via early intervention > so that, say, only one-eighth of the next bunch of first graders > did finish a meaningful secondary education program. > It seems to me that that is not "fixable." My sister quit teaching because she couldn't deal with the combination of a) bonehead math students who just could -not- comprehend trig (I was in a class in high school with bonehead calculus students, who the entire year, it took to try to get them to what was covered in two weeks in MIT's freshman calculus class -- or any other decent class in calculus at the university level), and b) "students" who has no interest in learning whatsoever and then demanded they they be given passing grades in it anyway. > What would it do the lettuce-picking industry; much less the > post-secondary education market? Most of the lettuce picking in the USA, I thought, is done by people who are either not US citizens by birth or are first generation US citizens by birth. --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Fri May 16 22:51:56 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:51:56 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Ambitions In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516221324.01f59998@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030516215156.GB4703@fireopal.org> On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 04:43:44PM -0500, Brian Hurt wrote: > On Fri, 16 May 2003, James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: > > > Miles has an ambition that Aral, > > in at least some circumstances, > > will be remembered not for what > > he accomplished but as Miles > > Vorkosigan's father. > > > > Do you suppose that the next > > "worst thing" that Lois will > > do to him is to ensure that > > he is remembered as Ekaterin's > > husband? > > Worse: Aral Jr.'s Father. > > Think about it... I don't think either of those are worse - in both cases, he's being remembered for something _he_ did. He didn't do ANYTHING to become Aral's son - but marrying Ekaterin was an conscious action of his, as was having children. Being remembered only as Aral's son means that he accomplishes nothing noteworthy to the historians in his own life. Marrying Ekaterin and having Aral, Jr. are both, by his lights, accomplishments of his. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From nancy at dendarii.com Fri May 16 23:07:55 2003 From: nancy at dendarii.com (Nancy Barber) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 18:07:55 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Burnett revisited In-Reply-To: <001701c31b5d$43836960$0500000a@oemcomputer> References: <001701c31b5d$43836960$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: At 10:43 PM -0500 5/15/03, Lois McMaster Bujold wrote: >What a little searching on Amazon can find! > >The name of the dimly-remembered book is almost certainly _T. Tembarom_. I >even found the melodrama about the awful transatlantic marriage and the >rescue by the smarter sister (_The Shuttle_, for the insatiably curious.). >Alas, it's only available as an e-book for s system I don't have. I'd even >more dimly remembered that one as being by Eleanor Glyn (sp?), but nay. >Glyn is more blood-and angst-on-the-tiles and less good-sense-triumphs than >Burnett. In a burst of Net synchronicity, I've just joined a new Yahoo Group on Burnett. I had no idea she wrote novels for adults, and am looking forward to reading some and discussing them. If anyone else is interested, the group is at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FrancesHodgsonBurnett/ Nancy Barber --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Fri May 16 22:08:06 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:08:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Als of the weird variety In-Reply-To: <12c.2a62011d.2bf6912f@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030516160634.01dad220@pop.east.cox.net> At 14:08 05/16/2003, CatMtn at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 5/16/2003 3:01:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > >What about "Weird Al Yankovic," (sp?) who had a polka band, I think sometime >back in my distant youth? There once was a polka band known as Frankie Yankovic, and a much more recent musical parodist called Weird Al Yankovic. They were not related. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From rmacdonald at microd.com Sat May 17 00:10:56 2003 From: rmacdonald at microd.com (Richard Macdonald) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 19:10:56 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Chrysler bailout References: <1f0.901abac.2bf535dc@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EC57000.3132E733@microd.com> CatMtn at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/15/2003 1:31:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > > And how about *Blank* has declared war on us and we have no manufacturing > within our own country or close enough to be available? > > Mary > > > True, those aren't loans, that I know of; they're straight > > bail-outs... er, er, subsidies. But as to not changing their > > losing ways (as Chrysler did, under Iacocca), some of that they Actually Chrysler did not get a bail out, all they got was loan guarantees to buy time for Lee to get things together and the government made a profit of ~$ 250,000,000. It cost the taxpayers nothing. Hey, Dad was on Lee's new Board of Directors, I got an insiders view and still run a minivan. -- Richard A. Macdonald. CPA/EA SSG (Ret), USA, ADA 16P34 Dedicated follower of Fr Luca Paccioli, Master Juggler. Delenda est Carthago -- Cato the Elder --------________--------________-------- From dhbenton at worldnet.att.net Sat May 17 00:52:19 2003 From: dhbenton at worldnet.att.net (Dawn Benton) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 19:52:19 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Grading on a curve was Permission v Forgiveness References: <20030516092040.N49438-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <5.2.1.1.1.20030516151936.02e022e0@mail.iqcisp.com> Message-ID: <010901c31c06$30cb09a0$a9d75c0c@primepc> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louann Miller" > > OTOH I have been in classes where a teacher would look at the grade > distribution on a specific assignment or test, observe for example that the > highest earned grade was a 65 (out of a hundred) and curve the grades > upward somewhat. I gather this happened fairly routinely in college in the > hard sciences (no pun intended) like chemistry or physics. > > Louann, who thereby passed chemistry (and changed majors). Lord yes! I was a chem major, and my brother was a physics major (at different universities). I know both of us benefitted from a similar policy in our respective departments. Without that and partial credit for showing your work, it would have taken me a wee bit longer to finish. Secondly, a bell curve arises from a binomial distribution which, IIRC, is a population which varies randomly and without skew or bias about a mean. If there is any reason to think the population of your group is not normally distributed, then a bell curve does not apply. Since most classes are not clusters of students plucked randomly from the general population, I feel expecting any sort of results to fall in a bell curve shaped distribution is simply wacky. You would be much better off by establishing what minimum amount of the material needs to be learned and what amount corresponds to degrees of excellence such as an A or a B. Dawn --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Sat May 17 01:29:47 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:29:47 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling ot: Message-ID: From: Pouncer at aol.com Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:41:21 EDT >Well, the other, MORE basic problem with ELEMENTARY education is that too many children, don't get it. I mean, some researchers find that in some districts, up to a third of the 10 year olds, having een in the system for four solid years K-3rd grade, can't yet read in any meaningful way. And by that age, they ain't liable to larn how, nohow. < Whew! Deadlines finally out of the way, and I can look at my email! rant on: This is even worse in some private schools. Our youngest couldn't read until 4th grade. We had our boys in a small Lutheran school that did not have any provisions for special education for learning disable children. Since he happens to be in a family that always has its collective nose in a book, and we had read to him daily from infancy, we were very worried about it. We knew he was very bright, so that wasn't it. The teachers from K - 3 all said not to worry, it'd click *real* soon. We kept believing it, until we saw how badly he was feeling about it. Then, we went to our local Children's Hospital clinic and had him tested at our own expense, learned what his particular problems were, and got him the help he needed. Within a year, he was reading at grade level, even though he still hated to read. (BTW, at 15 and a freshman, he has read 2 books for *pleasure* for the first time this month - Dave Barry's Big Trouble and Tricky Business) Here was a very bright kid who was failing, hating school, reading, etc. We should have gone with our instincts and dealt with it in Kindergarten, not listened to the well-intentioned teachers. But how many parents have the resources or know what to do in the system? Those kids just get lost in the shuffle...and guess where so many of them end up, at our expense? rant off > >A large percentage of the population is simply too stupid to benefit by > >post-secondary ed., and having them around makes teaching those who can > >really benefit harder; it's like sticking damper rods into a nuclear > >reaction. > >In a trollish mood today, Steve? < Heh. >But playing along, how is it different in post-secondary classrooms than in first grade, where, for instance, my six year old who could already read, add, substract, name colors, tell time, make change, carry a tune and identify polygons was to be perforce seated in a classroom of 22 "average" six year olds most of whom would be approaching most of those skills for the very first time? What would it do the lettuce-picking industry; much less the post-secondary education market? < This is where I admire the German system (at least, as it was 20 years ago - I don't know how the whole "Gesamtschule" thing worked out). Recognizing that some kids are going to be geared for the academic life and providing them with the proper, rigorous background; giving others a business education; and, giving kids who are going to go into trades schooling, apprenticeships, and then jobs when they are finished - this seemed like a very worthwhile system to me. Of course, the Germans decided the designations at age 10 - that was a little harsh. But, having a system where you could have a kid who was going to be a mechanic, not an academic, be trained and proud of it, is, I think, better than telling ALL high school kids "to succeed, you must go to college." What does that tell kids whose life paths will be different? And are we breeding malcontents by doing so? Or keeping them in a college-track program that suddenly ends for them at 17, with no training in anything practical that will provide them with a useful, satisfying career? And can you tell that I just finished a few days of grueling work ? Okay. Off the soapbox... Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --------________--------________-------- From hotchkiss-c at webtv.net Sat May 17 01:43:39 2003 From: hotchkiss-c at webtv.net (Jane Hotchkiss) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 19:43:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] Callng Mark & Kareen In-Reply-To: lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk's message of Wed, 14 May 2003 17:37:07 +0100 Message-ID: <20735-3EC585BB-3735@storefull-2371.public.lawson.webtv.net> Gotta tell you all about this: I had lunch today with my former manager (who quit in mid-December) & my former buyer (who was fired a year & a half ago), & coming home stuck in traffic I had the radio on - WFMT, Chicago classical. What to my surprise did I hear but the intro to music inspired by John Keats' ode about a maiden whose swain had been beheaded by her family (at which I started attending to the announcer) & his head planted in a _pot of basil_. Of course I hadn't been paying attention at that point to the composer's name or the title of the work, so can't cite it for you all. Jane --------________--------________-------- From mathews55 at msn.com Sat May 17 02:56:50 2003 From: mathews55 at msn.com (PAT MATHEWS) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 19:56:50 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: An aside on "selfishness" Message-ID: >From: "Tracy MacShane" >>Fine. Although in this day of technology and communication, "chaos" >doesn't have to happen when distributing resources. As for working to >get something, yes, of course. But what if resources weren't scarce? >What if when someone came and borrowed X, you could borrow it back or >get a new X whenever you liked? I MADE that quilt, working over several months to my own design. No, you may NOT take it! Especially since you're going to cut it up into pillowcases. (True story: my sister hid the only long gown I could find in 1957 when I went away to college, *cut it down*, and blithely caroled "OH, you didn't TAKE it so I thought you didn't WANT it!" And the parents backed her up. Next stop, Atlas Shrugged, sisters. I >think we should all be able to ask each other (no matter what our >economic resources). If you don't ask, you don't get, eh? Agreed. Demand, NO. > >In my utopian society, if you want to just sit there on a pile of your >possessions, go for it. Just don't expect anyone to share with you. That >is what boils down to the libertarian position, and I am fully in favour >of those who believe in that to go and practise that. Just don't wave >your guns around in my face! (I'd have to shoot my water pistol at you). > >Finally, yes, I have odd notions of possessions - I don't get jealous >either, unless I think I'm losing out on something. But I can see this >discussion going on forever, as Marna says. I'll be happy to take this >offlist if anyone can be bothered! >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --------________--------________-------- From timothybil at comcast.net Sat May 17 03:15:06 2003 From: timothybil at comcast.net (Tim Neumann) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 22:15:06 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Als of the weird variety In-Reply-To: <12c.2a62011d.2bf6912f@aol.com> Message-ID: > On Behalf Of CatMtn at aol.com > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 3:09 PM > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Subject: [LMB] Re: Als of the weird variety > > > What about "Weird Al Yankovic," (sp?) who had a polka band, > I think sometime > back in my distant youth? > Mary > Frankie Yankovic (no relation) had a polka band in the 50's and 60's. Tim Neumann (who grew up listening to him and Whoopie John Wolfheart, etc. --------________--------________-------- From bperry at shore.net Sat May 17 04:08:27 2003 From: bperry at shore.net (Bruce Perry) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 23:08:27 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Burnett, The Lost Prince, and Miles Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030516224749.00a88a60@shell.shore.net> >Avery wrote: >>Lois wrote: >> The name of the dimly-remembered book is almost certainly _T. Tembarom_. I >> even found the melodrama about the awful transatlantic marriage and the >> rescue by the smarter sister (_The Shuttle_, for the insatiably curious.). >> Alas, it's only available as an e-book for s system I don't have. > >So here I am quaking at my temerity in de-lurking on a Very Large >List, but if Lois or anybody else needs to know, there's a good >selection of FHB (safely out of copyright) at the On-Line Books >Page, http://digital.library.upenn.edu/books/. It includes the two >mentioned above, in nice boring text files. >After I found that page and read a wider selection of her writing, I >spent *days* giggling at the thought of how the very strict Christian >school which forced Fauntleroy down my throat would have reacted >to some of her more obscure books. "The Lost Prince", in >particular. :-) I'm interested to hear that Lois has read and likes Burnett since The Lost Prince has a character with Milesean parallels. One of the main characters, The Rat, is a crippled, hunchbacked military genius. Sound slightly familiar? He's not at all like Miles in character though (but perhaps not unlike a feral Mark). I posted something about The Lost Prince and Miles about two years ago or more. I don't recall much comment at the time, but I could dig it up if anyone want to pursue this topic now. Bruce --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Sat May 17 04:54:49 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 23:54:49 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Callng Mark & Kareen References: <20735-3EC585BB-3735@storefull-2371.public.lawson.webtv.net> Message-ID: <03bd01c31c28$10f977c0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Call up the radio station and ask them to look in their play list for the information. Somehow, I don't think it was Greensleeves' tune with a filk about Lois.... There are some strange classical things about there. Long ago there used to be a program called "CRB Saturday" on WCRB, in which the head of the station did his own thing, and pulled out stuff that if it hadn't been a classical station on around midnight on a weekend, the FCC at the time would likely have stomped on. Some of the [non-salaciouis] stuff out there includes folk songs worked over by Bartok which include things like "Bagpipes shall be playing, pairs in dance be swaying "Piper play 'til all is spent, to our hearts' and heels' content..... "Once a goat was straying, now his skin is playing...." Hmm, some of that might be adaptable to Barrayar filk... Where the [single syllable mountain chain] soar so free, Silvy Vale, bright with glee, [original -- flow'ry vale, bright with glee] There to rest, Oh there's no place on the world, [something]. [Original of that line '' Oh there's no bed in the word, softer] Done the work of the day Filled the barn with our hay Comes the night Let us turn peacefully home, brethren! -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jane Hotchk[iss" > What to my surprise did I hear but the intro to music > inspired by John Keats' ode about a maiden whose swain had been beheaded > by her family (at which I started attending to the announcer) & his head > planted in a _pot of basil_. Of course I hadn't been paying attention at > that point to the composer's name or the title of the work, so can't > cite it for you all. --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Sat May 17 05:25:42 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 23:25:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Callng Mark & Kareen In-Reply-To: <03bd01c31c28$10f977c0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> References: <20735-3EC585BB-3735@storefull-2371.public.lawson.webtv.net> <03bd01c31c28$10f977c0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <20030517042542.GA7031@fireopal.org> >> From: "Jane Hotchk[iss" > > What to my surprise did I hear but the intro to music > > inspired by John Keats' ode about a maiden whose swain had been beheaded > > by her family (at which I started attending to the announcer) & his head > > planted in a _pot of basil_. Of course I hadn't been paying attention at > > that point to the composer's name or the title of the work, so can't > > cite it for you all. On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 11:54:49PM -0400, Paula Lieberman wrote: > Call up the radio station and ask them to look in their play list for the > information. Or check out www.networkchicago.com You might be able to identify it on this page - http://www.networkchicago.com/wfmt/programs/may/programs0531.htm#16 -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Sat May 17 07:00:49 2003 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 01:00:49 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Callng Mark & Kareen Message-ID: <000c01c31c39$ae549c00$0500000a@oemcomputer> Jane Hotchkiss hotchkiss-c at webtv.net Fri, 16 May 2003 19:43:39 -0500 (CDT) Gotta tell you all about this: I had lunch today with my former manager (who quit in mid-December) & my former buyer (who was fired a year & a half ago), & coming home stuck in traffic I had the radio on - WFMT, Chicago classical. What to my surprise did I hear but the intro to music inspired by John Keats' ode about a maiden whose swain had been beheaded by her family (at which I started attending to the announcer) & his head planted in a _pot of basil_. Of course I hadn't been paying attention at that point to the composer's name or the title of the work, so can't cite it for you all. Jane The original tale with pot 'o basil, which has many permutations, appears, IIRC, in Boccaccio. Ta. L. --------________--------________-------- From rmacdonald at microd.com Sat May 17 01:00:02 2003 From: rmacdonald at microd.com (Richard Macdonald) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:00:02 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2376 - 20 msgs References: <1F599D2C-86CD-11D7-B46B-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3EC57B82.D9C01AFC@microd.com> James Reynolds wrote: > > Kirsten, if private industry is so wonderfully efficient, why does the > U. S. government need to keep bailing it out? Chrysler under Iacocca, Just as another correction, Lee Iacocca was brought in from Ford to save Chrysler from the mess his predecessors left it in along with an entirely new Board of Directors. Lee was the guy that did a bang up job at Ford with the Mustang, a great salesman who knew how to run a company. -- Richard A. Macdonald. CPA/EA SSG (Ret), USA, ADA 16P34 Dedicated follower of Fr Luca Paccioli, Master Juggler. Delenda est Carthago -- Cato the Elder --------________--------________-------- From rmacdonald at microd.com Sat May 17 00:40:08 2003 From: rmacdonald at microd.com (Richard Macdonald) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 19:40:08 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:-Selfishness) References: <20030516092040.N49438-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <20030516200240.GA32512@ofb.net> Message-ID: <3EC576D8.D1BF43B2@microd.com> Damien Sullivan wrote: > > On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 01:08:11PM -0500, Brian Hurt wrote: > > > I never liked bell curves. They always struck me as being laziness on > > part of the teacher. I mean, theoretically at least, couldn't a teacher > > be able to inspire all of their student's to do A level work? I mean, the > > Yeah, that's my attitude. Caltech tended to have mercy curves. There were > standards, and if you met them you'd get the grade of that standard. But if > the class as a whole did less well than the teacher expected you might get a > higher grade than the original standard would say. Operating Systems (grad > level) here at Indiana U was like that too. Then there is my favorite class that graded on an curve and I was purposely omitted from the curve so as not to skew the grades. It was TAX4001 Income Tax and I had already passed the IRS Enrolled Agent Exam a year and a half prior. No, i was helping the teacher keep up on all the current changes from TRA-96. (Nothing like having to take a required course that you are essentially certified to teach) -- Richard A. Macdonald. CPA/EA SSG (Ret), USA, ADA 16P34 Dedicated follower of Fr Luca Paccioli, Master Juggler. Delenda est Carthago -- Cato the Elder --------________--------________-------- From rmacdonald at microd.com Sat May 17 10:10:39 2003 From: rmacdonald at microd.com (Richard Macdonald) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 05:10:39 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Aussie Beers References: Message-ID: <3EC5FC8F.52A48C69@microd.com> Mandos wrote: > > I prefer the sherry casked highland malts myself (The Macallan), or the deep > rich seaweedy taste of Talisker. One of my favorites, the only Single Malt distilled on Skye. Sometimes referred to as "Peat Squeezings" in our group. -- Don Iain of Rannoch, OWST Husband to Lady Elizabeth of Cranstone -- Richard A. Macdonald. CPA/EA SSG (Ret), USA, ADA 16P34 Dedicated follower of Fr Luca Paccioli, Master Juggler. Delenda est Carthago -- Cato the Elder --------________--------________-------- From rmacdonald at microd.com Sat May 17 00:40:08 2003 From: rmacdonald at microd.com (Richard Macdonald) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 19:40:08 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Permission v Forgiveness (WAS OT:-Selfishness) References: <20030516092040.N49438-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <20030516200240.GA32512@ofb.net> Message-ID: <3EC576D8.D1BF43B2@microd.com> Damien Sullivan wrote: > > On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 01:08:11PM -0500, Brian Hurt wrote: > > > I never liked bell curves. They always struck me as being laziness on > > part of the teacher. I mean, theoretically at least, couldn't a teacher > > be able to inspire all of their student's to do A level work? I mean, the > > Yeah, that's my attitude. Caltech tended to have mercy curves. There were > standards, and if you met them you'd get the grade of that standard. But if > the class as a whole did less well than the teacher expected you might get a > higher grade than the original standard would say. Operating Systems (grad > level) here at Indiana U was like that too. Then there is my favorite class that graded on an curve and I was purposely omitted from the curve so as not to skew the grades. It was TAX4001 Income Tax and I had already passed the IRS Enrolled Agent Exam a year and a half prior. No, i was helping the teacher keep up on all the current changes from TRA-96. (Nothing like having to take a required course that you are essentially certified to teach) -- Richard A. Macdonald. CPA/EA SSG (Ret), USA, ADA 16P34 Dedicated follower of Fr Luca Paccioli, Master Juggler. Delenda est Carthago -- Cato the Elder --------________--------________-------- From rmacdonald at microd.com Sat May 17 01:00:02 2003 From: rmacdonald at microd.com (Richard Macdonald) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:00:02 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2376 - 20 msgs References: <1F599D2C-86CD-11D7-B46B-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3EC57B82.D9C01AFC@microd.com> James Reynolds wrote: > > Kirsten, if private industry is so wonderfully efficient, why does the > U. S. government need to keep bailing it out? Chrysler under Iacocca, Just as another correction, Lee Iacocca was brought in from Ford to save Chrysler from the mess his predecessors left it in along with an entirely new Board of Directors. Lee was the guy that did a bang up job at Ford with the Mustang, a great salesman who knew how to run a company. -- Richard A. Macdonald. CPA/EA SSG (Ret), USA, ADA 16P34 Dedicated follower of Fr Luca Paccioli, Master Juggler. Delenda est Carthago -- Cato the Elder --------________--------________-------- From cgwyn at w-link.net Sat May 17 14:11:39 2003 From: cgwyn at w-link.net (Christopher Gwyn) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 06:11:39 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling ot: References: Message-ID: <3EC6350B.DB051671@w-link.net> lorraine fletez-brant wrote: > > {snip} Recognizing that some kids are going to be geared for > the academic life and providing them with the proper, rigorous > background; giving others a business education; and, giving kids > who are going to go into trades schooling, apprenticeships, and > then jobs when they are finished - this seemed like a very > worthwhile system to me. Of course, the Germans decided the > designations at age 10 - that was a little harsh. But, having > a system where you could have a kid who was going to be a > mechanic, not an academic, be trained and proud of it, is, I > think, better than telling ALL high school kids "to succeed, > you must go to college." I would tend to agree - except, as you noted, for the age 10 part. I would want everyone 'educated in the basics of each path' so that when people want, or need, to switch paths they aren't having to start all over at the bottom... For example a kid might show a lot of promise as a mathematician, and be strongly encouraged to develop that promise, but still learn how to be a good machinist, chef, tailor, etc. And someone who doesn't show any promise as a mathematician would still be exposed to math beyond basic arithmetic for two reasons: one that he or she might actually have some talent in that direction (and should not be denied the pleasure of developing it) and two, that this person will grow up to be a citizen and will need to have at least some exposure to 'the whole of civilization' in order to facilitate making informed decisions. > What does that tell kids whose life paths will be different? And > are we breeding malcontents by doing so? Or keeping them in a > college-track program that suddenly ends for them at 17, with no > training in anything practical that will provide them with a useful, > satisfying career? {snip} The current system is 'breeding malcontents', on all sides. 'Well-educated' people who have no idea how the physical, economic and political aspects of their civilization works are apt to make decisions whose consequences they don't like, just as people who would be happiest and most productive attending to the 'non-college track aspects of life' are likely to make decisions whose consequences they don't like if they have no idea what the world is like beyond their day to day existence. Additionally - not knowing how things work, no matter what things they are, is a constant source of anxiety...an anxiety that leaves people open to a wide variety of false analysis... cheers, christopher -- Christopher Gwyn cgwyn at w-link.net http://members.w-link.net/~cgwyn/index.htm --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Sat May 17 14:26:23 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 14:26:23 +0100 Subject: [LMB] [LNB] Trans-Siberian Express 0T: In-Reply-To: <200305170912.h4H9CAr5000837@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030517142439.04ca9008@pop.luna.co.uk> Link to the photographs of my trip to Vladivostok:- http://www.luna.co.uk/~jbryant/siberia.htm James - whose memories of Siberia are good ones --------________--------________-------- From countryboy66 at mchsi.com Sat May 17 14:49:48 2003 From: countryboy66 at mchsi.com (Countryboy) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 08:49:48 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling ot: References: <3EC6350B.DB051671@w-link.net> Message-ID: <02d401c31c7b$2ee1c910$d18dd70c@MainComputer> Christopher Gwyn said: > I would tend to agree - except, as you noted, for the age > 10 part. I would want everyone 'educated in the basics of > each path' so that when people want, or need, to switch > paths they aren't having to start all over at the bottom... > For example a kid might show a lot of promise as a example> mathematician, and be strongly encouraged to > develop that promise, but still learn how to be a good > machinist, chef, tailor, etc. And someone who doesn't show > any promise as a mathematician would still be exposed to > math beyond basic arithmetic for two reasons: one that he or > she might actually have some talent in that direction (and > should not be denied the pleasure of developing it) and two, > that this person will grow up to be a citizen and will need > to have at least some exposure to 'the whole of > civilization' in order to facilitate making informed > decisions. As Lazarus Long said: "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects" Can't say I can do all those things, but I can sure give it a swing. Countryboy (Allen) - thinking that the notebooks of Lazarus Long were always his favorites and missing RH still. --------________--------________-------- From kknight at epix.net Sat May 17 15:29:02 2003 From: kknight at epix.net (Katrina Knight) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 10:29:02 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling ot: In-Reply-To: <036601c31bf3$289bd510$060d4b43@LAPTOP> References: <7a.3feb985b.2bf6a6f1@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030517095544.02bc62b0@in.epix.net> At 05:36 PM Friday 05/16/03 Paula Lieberman wrote: >From: > > Well, the other, MORE basic problem with ELEMENTARY education > > is that too many children, don't get it. I mean, some > researchers > > find that in some districts, up to a third of the 10 year olds, > having > > een in the system for four solid years K-3rd grade, can't yet > read in > > any meaningful way. And by that age, they ain't liable to larn > how, > > nohow. > >That's not true.... Charlemagne was far into adulthood when he >learned to >read and write. It seems to me that there is truth to both views here. Kids who don't learn to read by third grade probably aren't going to learn in a standard classroom with no additional help. If they haven't learned by then, there's probably some reason they haven't learned that isn't going to go away on its own. (Learning disabilites, language barriers, poor learning environment, etc.) That doesn't mean people aren't capable of learning after that age though. I think almost anyone who gets appropriate help is likely to be able to learn after that age, at least as long as they aren't actively resisting learning. So the question becomes whether they're likely to get appropriate help or not. > > and bending over backwards thru flaming hoops, if necessary, to > > ensure all kids start 2nd grade able to read. These people are > > generally regarded as hopeless fanactics, idealists, and/or > radical > > dangerous right-wing homeschoolers. > > > >The prodigies get heard about, but what about those who >aren't? What's the >average age I wonder, at which homeschooled kids learn to read? I don't know, but I suspect that homeschooled kids start reading at an earlier average age simply because they're getting more parental attention and support in their learning. > > I dunno as I'd restrict that diagnosis to the already once > > diploma'd. It's hard to make random elements fizz. > > > > Anyhow, assume for the nonce that half the kids now entering > >That figure seems -really- high to me. Where I was, which was a >factory >town, the dropout rate was a lot lower than half.... probably on the >order >of less than ten percent. There was a Trade high school, which may >have >helped with that some, but.... It varies a lot. Where I live now, more than half the kids starting 9th grade don't make it to graduation. (My sister's class was something like 1200 students when she started high school, 500+ graduated. She could chip in here and comment on that, since I "twisted her arm" to join this list.) Where I grew up, the dropout rate was so miniscule that I didn't know of anyone who dropped out. I think assuming a total of half the students dropping out is way to high in total, but in poor and/or urban areas it does happen. > > U.S. public first grade classrooms drop out before completing > > secondary (12th grade, High School) programs in such > > subjects as civics, fundamentals of biology or chemistry, > > world history, or maybe a non-English language. Assume, > > further, that this could be instantly "fixed" via early > intervention > > so that, say, only one-eighth of the next bunch of first graders > > did finish a meaningful secondary education program. > > >It seems to me that that is not "fixable." My sister quit teaching >because >she couldn't deal with the combination of a) bonehead math students >who just >could -not- comprehend trig (I was in a class in high school with >bonehead >calculus students, who the entire year, it took to try to get them >to what >was covered in two weeks in MIT's freshman calculus class -- or any >other >decent class in calculus at the university level), and b) "students" >who has >no interest in learning whatsoever and then demanded they they be >given >passing grades in it anyway. I think some of this is fixable. You're never going to change the fact that some students are less capable than others, but it should be possible to do things to cause more students to *want* to learn. The ones who have no interest in learning generally didn't start out life feeling that way, and the idea that they should be given passing grades anyway originated somewhere. Even the less capable students are going to learn a lot more if they want to learn. A lot of of the fix for that involves fixing the way society, or at least some segments of society think though. Parents who don't value education tend to teach their kids not to value it. Some of the "fix" involves making improvements to the way schools work though. Trying to run classrooms where kids of all abilities are supposed to learn at the same pace leaves the slow ones behind and/or bores the ones with more ability. Neither of those is good for keeping the kids involved interested in learning. As for whether or not too many people get a post-secondary education, I think that it is more that too many people get the wrong post-secondary education. It doesn't make sense to push everyone into college. Many people would be better off with a good tech school or apprenticeship. Learning a trade instead of getting a degree shouldn't be discouraged or looked down upon. -- Katrina Knight kknight at epix.net --------________--------________-------- From bo at dendarii.com Sat May 17 15:43:02 2003 From: bo at dendarii.com (Bo Johansson) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 16:43:02 +0200 Subject: [LMB] [LNB] Trans-Siberian Express 0T: References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030517142439.04ca9008@pop.luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <003501c31c82$9ef4dec0$ab6c72d5@05we7eawlrqm6us> On Saturday, May 17, 2003 3:26 PM [GMT+1 (or +2)], James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: > Link to the photographs of my trip to Vladivostok:- > > http://www.luna.co.uk/~jbryant/siberia.htm The first 30 images are mis-labeled on that page, the links go to the "next" image, the first should be 000.jpg instead of 001.jpg. Very nice pictures, BTW. // Bo Johansson --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Sat May 17 16:29:04 2003 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 09:29:04 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Re: Chrysler bailout References: <1f0.901abac.2bf535dc@aol.com> <3EC57000.3132E733@microd.com> Message-ID: <002501c31c89$0de4c6a0$778171cf@puter> Richard Macdonald, snipping rather, ah, carelessly, says: KC >> True, those [*airline* bailouts] aren't loans, that I know of; they're straight bail-outs... er, er, subsidies. But as to not changing their losing ways (as Chrysler did, under Iacocca), some of that they << RM > Actually Chrysler did not get a bail out, all they got was loan guarantees to buy time for Lee to get things together < But Richarrrrrd, that's what I saaaaaaaid! I *know* what the Chrysler deal was, and why, and how, and its result. And as a fierce proponent of the car business--by which I was employed for 26 years, mind--I have tried to explain all this, again and again and again, over the years. But the Chrysler Myth just... won't... die. It keeps getting dredged up as one of the examples of the definition of "bailout" and that drives me right 'round the bend! > I <...> still run a minivan. < And I'm currently driving Guido's Jeep [1], while she's out of town. ~ Kay [1] A *Chrysler* product, for anyone unfamiliar with the current corporate structure of who manufactures what --------________--------________-------- From hotchkiss-c at webtv.net Sat May 17 17:02:36 2003 From: hotchkiss-c at webtv.net (Jane Hotchkiss) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 11:02:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Calling Mark & Kareen In-Reply-To: lois-bujold-request@lists.herald.co.uk's message of Sat, 17 May 2003 10:12:10 +0100 Message-ID: <20736-3EC65D1C-3383@storefull-2371.public.lawson.webtv.net> Checked the playlist - it was "Isabella (Symphonic Poem after Keats)" , BBC National Orchestra/Richard Hickox, Chandos 9950. Thank you, Your Ladyship, now I'll take that copy of The Decameron when I decamp to Michigan tomorrow. The WebTV comes too, so I won't be away from you all. Jane --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Sat May 17 18:18:29 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:18:29 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: The Matrix: Beta Testing Message-ID: <20030517.101831.5837.99703@webmail10.lax.untd.com> "If this movie would ever end-- Wouldn't that be worth fighting for? Wouldn't that be worth---dying---for?" Okay. So if I'd waited until I could check the movie out on DVD from my library and watch it on my PC I'd probably have liked it as much as the first one... Kirsten (sometimes one's expectations just aren't low enough) Edwards ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Sat May 17 19:33:51 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 14:33:51 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Motivation/Data source Message-ID: <11a.22fdab92.2bf7da8f@aol.com> "Pouncer" says: > I suppose it's like having a two-parent family. Having > a school with both motivators and data-sources is > probably better than a school with only one sort of > "teacher". > Why can't one teacher be both? An enthusiastic teacher is not by definition one that simply does not know his/her subject, and inspires the students to learn it on their own. I always found that the teachers who were interested in and cared about the information they were teaching managed to inspire at least a good percentage of their students, and also had a better understanding of it themselves. Mary --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Sat May 17 19:44:52 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 14:44:52 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Aral/Miles/Aral II Message-ID: <151.1f67d96c.2bf7dd24@aol.com> In a message dated 5/16/2003 5:38:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk writes: > On Fri, 16 May 2003, James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: > > >Miles has an ambition that Aral, > >in at least some circumstances, > >will be remembered not for what > >he accomplished but as Miles > >Vorkosigan's father. > > > >Do you suppose that the next > >"worst thing" that Lois will > >do to him is to ensure that > >he is remembered as Ekaterin's > >husband? > > Worse: Aral Jr.'s Father. > > Think about it... > > Brian Let the punishment fit the crime, huh? Mary --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Sat May 17 20:07:00 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 15:07:00 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT:Education Message-ID: From: That's not true.... Charlemagne was far into adulthood when he learned to read and write. He never did it all that well, but he was in a culture where only a fraction of the populace ever became literate, and his did has his duties as Emperor of an empire that extended across most of Europe, and didn't have modern transportation systems and communications to help run it. One of the best education professors I ever had told the class that he had a learning disability that prevented him from learning to read until he was twelve. And this, by the way, was in Texas. It made him stress to his students that lack of ability to do certain things does not necessarily mean stupid, and that certain brain connections are made at different ages in different children. Some children simply are not ready to read at the same time as average--and it doesn't mean they are stupid, it simply means that certain brain connections haven't been made yet. If they are never made, that's a different story. I had a comparable experience teaching science--also in Texas--eighth graders could easily learn how to balance a chemical equation and use the atomic weights to calculate how much of compound XY it took to make 50 grams of X. Even average-to-below average eigth graders. Bright seventh graders had trouble with the concept, let alone the actual calculation. Less bright seventh graders who had been held back a year or two could usually get it quicker. I don't know what connection was made around age 12-13, but there obviously was one. I finally decided when I was on the curriculum committee that chemical equations were a concept that should be limited to the eighth grade and above. Why waste their time if they could learn it easily the next year? Mary > >What would it do the lettuce-picking industry; much less the > >post-secondary education market? > > Most of the lettuce picking in the USA, I thought, is done by people who > are > either not US citizens by birth or are first generation US citizens by > birth. Another point--a lot of the kids I taught in Texas were bilingual. I often pointed out to the smart*sses in the Anglo group that if the Spanish and English vocabularies were added together, these kids probably knew more words than they did. Also that the Spanish words probably gave them a better grasp of scientific terminology, since so much of that relates to Latin. For example, the Spanish word for "lungs" is "pulmones". Guess which group could figure out the meaning of "pulmonary" best the first time they heard it-- Mary --------________--------________-------- From tygerbryght at myrealbox.com Sat May 17 22:08:39 2003 From: tygerbryght at myrealbox.com (Paula S. Sanch) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 16:08:39 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: USA political humor Message-ID: <1053205719.75a71580tygerbryght@myrealbox.com> Caution: True blue (red, on the political maps) conservatives may not enjoy this. Be warned. I found this listed on the 'new stuff' library humor page. http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0304/eb_wmd/ Library humor page: http://www.laughinglibrarian.com/ --- Paula S --------________--------________-------- From nlbarber at mac.com Sat May 17 22:32:16 2003 From: nlbarber at mac.com (Nancy L. Barber) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:32:16 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Burnett, The Lost Prince, and Miles In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030516224749.00a88a60@shell.shore.net> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030516224749.00a88a60@shell.shore.net> Message-ID: At 11:08 PM -0400 5/16/03, Bruce Perry wrote: >I posted something about The Lost Prince and Miles about two years >ago or more. I don't recall much comment at the time, but I could >dig it up if anyone want to pursue this topic now. I'll dig it out of the archives, unless someone else is interested too. I've just gotten an unabridged copy of _The Lost Prince_, having learned to love it from the now-almost-universal abridged version. Much more to my liking than _The Secret Garden_... Nancy Barber --------________--------________-------- From ndrosen at erols.com Sat May 17 21:43:18 2003 From: ndrosen at erols.com (Nicholas Rosen) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 16:43:18 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Lynette on taxes OT: Message-ID: <014f01c31cbe$7cd1e400$093e2c42@oemcomputer> Lynette Jagoda wrote: > I am all for less taxes in theory and more efficient use of > the money that is collected. But I also have a real world > view of some of the things our taxes pay for that I want > to see maintained and grown. I like being able to get in > my car and drive from here to Florida and smooth roads. > etc. There is not a charitable campaign on the planet that > could raise the capital required to acquire and run National > Parks, State University Systems, Health and Safety > programs like the FDA, etc. If people want to visit national parks, couldn't businesses or non-profit entities run them off fees? Couldn't state universities charge higher tuition (higher than Berea College, anyway[1])? As to the FDA, I'd prefer that the share of my taxes that go to it were used to hire people to dig ditches and then fill them again; that wouldn't be an active threat to public health and safety, which the FDA is; its delays in letting drugs become available have killed people by the tens of thousands, and its efforts to forbid the dissemination of entirely truthful information, in blatant violation of the Constitution -- for example, saying that vegetable oils may not boast of having no cholesterol, that the well-established health benefits of various foods may not be advertised, and that drug makers must walk on eggshells in advertising what their products are good for -- have probably cost thousands more lives. Roads and some other public works are genuinely useful, but I wish they were paid for out of land value taxation instead of income tax, gasoline tax, etc. Public works normally make land more valuable, so let the beneficiaries pay. [1] Berea charges no tuition, but requires its students to work to help keep it going. Granted, that may not be practical for every institution. On the other hand, PC indoctrination courses aren't very "practical," or a source of much lasting happiness. I wonder how many of them there'd be if the academy were less insulated from market pressures. Regards, Nicholas Rosen --------________--------________-------- From ndrosen at erols.com Sat May 17 22:19:07 2003 From: ndrosen at erols.com (Nicholas Rosen) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:19:07 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Lousy Investment Opportunity OT: Message-ID: <015001c31cbe$7e8debe0$093e2c42@oemcomputer> Lousy investment opportunity! High risk! Low gain! You don't get a chance like this every day! (Not since the post-Enron crackdown on Wall Street.) This may be familiar to some of you; I posted about it a few months ago, but now we're really doing it. A listee has had health and financial problems, and we're trying to put together enough loans to set her up in a business. For more information, e-mail me. You don't have to be rich to join in (although it helps). 8-) If we can get a few more people willing to put up $100 each, or a larger number who can kick in $20 each, we should be able to let our friend buy all the initial inventory she needs to get off to a good start. The money currently at hand or pledged will cover most of the basics (and is about three quarters of the total I'm trying to reach). Regards, Nicholas Rosen --------________--------________-------- From ndrosen at erols.com Sat May 17 22:42:25 2003 From: ndrosen at erols.com (Nicholas Rosen) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:42:25 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on "selfishness" Message-ID: <015101c31cbe$7f6fc060$093e2c42@oemcomputer> Azalais Malfoy wrote: > Enforced charity is hardly charity. I once wrote (long ago) a > libertarian defense of single-payer health care as a civil > defense issue (bacteria, virii, biochemical glitches, and > accidents have much in common with crime and military > invasion--and I don't mind contributing to mutual defense of any > kind as part of a social contract, long as we're not making > Moral Judgements and we're defending everyone's health, no > matter what they eat, drink, or smoke, or who they sleep with > and how, or what their dangerous hobbies are, be that rock > climbing, smoking, or sleeping around). Leaving aside questions of what ought to be, this isn't likely to happen. He who pays the piper calls the tune, or at least, is apt to get upset on being told that he can't call it. If people are being forced to pay for a universal health care system, then they're going to demand that it cover their problems, and the problems of people they sympathize with, and they're going to complain about what they see as misuse of their funds. "The Health Ministry won't even pay for X, but it pays for Y, which people bring on themselves by doing Z. We need to ban Z, so those sinners/irresponsible fools/hedonists don't burden the rest of us with the costs of their own choices." Regards, Nicholas Rosen --------________--------________-------- From ndrosen at erols.com Sat May 17 22:54:00 2003 From: ndrosen at erols.com (Nicholas Rosen) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 17:54:00 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Steve's Trolling OT: Message-ID: <015501c31cbe$da59fb80$093e2c42@oemcomputer> JoatSimeon/S.M. Stirling wrote: > One of the basic problems with higher education in the US is that too many > people get it. Maybe. > A large percentage of the population is simply too stupid to benefit by > post-secondary ed., and having them around makes teaching those who can > really benefit harder; it's like sticking damper rods into a nuclear > reaction. Having been a teaching assistant for physics classes, I would agree if "not prepared, qualified, or interested enough, and in some cases just not smart enough" were substituted for "simply too stupid." Hey, I was lost when I tried to audit a basic college physics class, after getting A's in high school (from which I was graduated at fifteen). I wasn't "simply too stupid," though. I later managed to do better. I think Mr. Stirling and I could agree on this: We wouln't need so much schooling if the quality were better. If having been through sixth grade were reliable evidence of having mastered the three R's, and a high school diploma were a guarantee of having learned math through trigonometry, a reasonable amount of history and civics, the basics of science, and how to handle the English language, then not as many jobs would require college degrees, or even high school diplomas, for that matter. Much less time and money would be wasted in competitive credentialism. > Plus, in this degenerate age, there's immense pressure to avoid hurting the > feelings of dullards by telling them they're wasting their time and should go > pick lettuce or the equivalent. This corrupts the whole educational process. That's true. There's also pressure to avoid hurting the feelings of the not-so-dull by telling them they need to work harder, and pressure to avoid hurting the feelings of educrats by saying that they're failing to educate students who are educable. And there's such a thing as the risk of going overboard in the other direction; I definitely wouldn't want people who've hit rough patches, or don't have eager, literate, pro-education parents, or have the wrong skin color, to be told that they're wasting their time and should not aspire to anything beyond picking lettuce. Regards, Nicholas Rosen, B.A., M.S., Ph.D. --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Sat May 17 23:08:20 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 15:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on "selfishness" In-Reply-To: <015101c31cbe$7f6fc060$093e2c42@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <20030517150106.X14446-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Sat, 17 May 2003, Nicholas Rosen wrote: > Azalais Malfoy wrote: > > > Enforced charity is hardly charity. I once wrote (long ago) a > > libertarian defense of single-payer health care as a civil > > defense issue (bacteria, virii, biochemical glitches, and > > accidents have much in common with crime and military > > invasion--and I don't mind contributing to mutual defense of any > > kind as part of a social contract, long as we're not making > > Moral Judgements and we're defending everyone's health, no > > matter what they eat, drink, or smoke, or who they sleep with > > and how, or what their dangerous hobbies are, be that rock > > climbing, smoking, or sleeping around). > > Leaving aside questions of what ought to be, this isn't likely > to happen. He who pays the piper calls the tune, or at least, > is apt to get upset on being told that he can't call it. If people > are being forced to pay for a universal health care system, > then they're going to demand that it cover their problems, and > the problems of people they sympathize with, and they're going > to complain about what they see as misuse of their funds. > "The Health Ministry won't even pay for X, but it pays for > Y, which people bring on themselves by doing Z. We need > to ban Z, so those sinners/irresponsible fools/hedonists > don't burden the rest of us with the costs of their own choices." This is precisely why I don't think single-payer will work in the US. We're a puritan society, in many respects. And I won't support it unless health care is treated as a defense issue, because it wasn't so long ago that many doctors wouldn't treat sexually transmitted diseases, viewing them as punishment for wrong-doing. It's a shame. But I really don't want to see people denied treatment everywhere in the US, as they already are at some HMO's, unless they submit to gastric bypass surgery (and I am really opposed to forcing people who are functional without meds to take meds when they really want, and probably need, counseling and something like NLP). If you think sexual conduct is a moral issue, you should hear what people feel free to say about you if you're fat...! And some of the people in the mental health system SCARE me. If you're bipolar type I or schizophrenic, yeah, you need to be on something. But a lot of times it's not that simple. ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From rmacdonald at microd.com Sat May 17 23:27:59 2003 From: rmacdonald at microd.com (Richard Macdonald) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:27:59 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Lynette on taxes OT: References: <014f01c31cbe$7cd1e400$093e2c42@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3EC6B76F.14B5A3FE@microd.com> Nicholas Rosen wrote: > > If people want to visit national parks, couldn't businesses > or non-profit entities run them off fees? Heaven forbid the Federal Government get rid of the National Parks, they are a profit center with more fees collected than costs. Now if they would only put all those dollars back into the Parks. -- Richard A. Macdonald. CPA/EA SSG (Ret), USA, ADA 16P34 Dedicated follower of Fr Luca Paccioli, Master Juggler. Delenda est Carthago -- Cato the Elder --------________--------________-------- From rmacdonald at microd.com Sat May 17 23:37:59 2003 From: rmacdonald at microd.com (Richard Macdonald) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:37:59 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on "selfishness" References: <20030517150106.X14446-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <3EC6B9C7.8AB31727@microd.com> Azalais Malfoy wrote: > > This is precisely why I don't think single-payer will work in the > US. We're a puritan society, in many respects. And I won't > support it unless health care is treated as a defense issue, > because it wasn't so long ago that many doctors wouldn't treat > sexually transmitted diseases, viewing them as punishment for > wrong-doing. Here ia a simple question: Who do you want to control the spending on your healthcare: A. Yourself. B. Your HMO C. Congress Think long and hard on this before answering. -- Richard A. Macdonald. CPA/EA SSG (Ret), USA, ADA 16P34 Dedicated follower of Fr Luca Paccioli, Master Juggler. Delenda est Carthago -- Cato the Elder --------________--------________-------- From WaWenri at aol.com Sun May 18 00:42:06 2003 From: WaWenri at aol.com (WaWenri at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 19:42:06 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2371 - 2 msgs Message-ID: <1e0.9267f48.2bf822ce@aol.com> Peter Newman writes: > I've heard that right now the number of people who write poetry > exceeds the number of people who read poetry. Where have all the poets gone, Writing lyrics every one! Bill Wenrich --------________--------________-------- From jmjm at sprint.ca Sun May 18 01:00:04 2003 From: jmjm at sprint.ca (Doug Mitchell) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 20:00:04 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: How do you backup your OE mail, addresses,..? Message-ID: <017c01c31cd0$6ff972e0$507b6395@9ep9u> It used to be the case that data files were what we worried about losing. But I would be lost without my email messages, addresses and bookmarks. However these things seem more difficult to track down in Windows Explorer. What suggestions do you have for a beginner for backing up these folders/files so that I could restore them if my hard drive failed? Thanks for your advice. Doug --------________--------________-------- From jwreynold at earthlink.net Sun May 18 01:50:50 2003 From: jwreynold at earthlink.net (James Reynolds) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 20:50:50 -0400 Subject: Subject: [LMB] Lynette on taxes OT: In-Reply-To: <200305172210.h4HMAAr5003131@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: > > > Lynette Jagoda wrote: > >> I am all for less taxes in theory and more efficient use of >> the money that is collected. But I also have a real world >> view of some of the things our taxes pay for that I want >> to see maintained and grown. I like being able to get in >> my car and drive from here to Florida and smooth roads. >> etc. There is not a charitable campaign on the planet that >> could raise the capital required to acquire and run National >> Parks, State University Systems, Health and Safety >> programs like the FDA, etc. > > If people want to visit national parks, couldn't businesses > or non-profit entities run them off fees? (Snip) Oh, great idea! I can't wait to read the announcement that BigParkCorp. has made a 'strategic aliance' with Clearcut Forestry LLC to to log out some of those 'unnecessary woods'. The thought of Disney running Yellowstone Park... > As to the FDA, I'd prefer that the share of > my taxes that go to it were used to hire people to dig ditches > and then fill them again; that wouldn't be an active threat to > public health and safety, which the FDA is; its delays in letting > drugs become available have killed people by the tens of > thousands, (Snip) Oh? What drugs are these? What about the FDA's role in preventing quackery (Anyone here remember Laetrile?) and forcing the pharmacology industry to prove that their products are safe (at least for the majority of patients) , rather than letting drugs on the market because we gotta keep the Wall Streeters happy? The FDA was founded to protect the public from fraud and trickery. It -must- err on the far side of caution. Unless, of course, you and your family don't mind the role of guinea pig. Caveat emptor, and all that. *** Jim Reynolds --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Sun May 18 01:51:52 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 00:51:52 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Laughing Librarians Message-ID: <20030517.175156.2786.31390@webmail08.lax.untd.com> Thanks to Paula L. for the link: http://www.laughinglibrarian.com/ (we could sure use them at Solinus), but may I also recommend: http://www.overduemedia.com/ My favorite series of 5 strips on, hmm, proactive advertising for public libraries begins with this one: http://www.overduemedia.com/archive.aspx?strip=20020508 Kirsten Edwards This space for rent ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From mark at mark.org.il Sun May 18 02:56:51 2003 From: mark at mark.org.il (Mark A.R.) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 03:56:51 +0200 Subject: [LMB] OT: How do you backup your OE mail, addresses,..? In-Reply-To: <017c01c31cd0$6ff972e0$507b6395@9ep9u> References: <017c01c31cd0$6ff972e0$507b6395@9ep9u> Message-ID: <3EC6E863.9080901@mark.org.il> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - - note to mod: please disregard the previous message, just another case of PEBCAK. Doug Mitchell wrote: > It used to be the case that data files were what we worried about losing. But > I would be lost without my email messages, addresses and bookmarks. However > these things seem more difficult to track down in Windows Explorer. What > suggestions do you have for a beginner for backing up these folders/files so > that I could restore them if my hard drive failed? > > Thanks for your advice. > > Doug Even more OT: I'm a newcomer to the list. I've read quite a bit of LMB's work, though it was mostly translated (Russian). Please be gentle :) As for your question, check out http://www.my3web.com/help/backup_email.html This page explains pretty much everything w.r.t/your query. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1-nr1 (Windows XP) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE+xuhnkPyB1zKqAsgRAjUuAJ0aRF2Izy60GwvDvsBqjcMpGygApwCgpYoY a8qVbSCm+pjqCUmqB979ttA= =dicl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------________--------________-------- From mathews55 at msn.com Sun May 18 01:57:51 2003 From: mathews55 at msn.com (PAT MATHEWS) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:57:51 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Steve & Education Message-ID: I rather like Michael Flynn's "Silver Apples" idea from Rogue Star: a Silver Apple always learns a trade as well as her primary specialty. This makes her more employable and allows her to play backup on, say, a three-person space expedition. I'm sure he got the idea from Heinlein. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --------________--------________-------- From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Sun May 18 01:58:59 2003 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 20:58:59 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Burnett revisited Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20030517205709.00a1e5d0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Thanks for posting the link to the Frances Hodgson Burnett group on Yahoo, Nancy. If you can get downtown, there're several copies of her more obscure novels in adult fiction and the children's section [in the bowels of the basement]. These books are rather like getting classes in college: so obscure nobody else wants them [but not obscure enough to get cancelled]. :) Jerrie --------________--------________-------- From mathews55 at msn.com Sun May 18 01:58:42 2003 From: mathews55 at msn.com (PAT MATHEWS) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:58:42 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: we lost the fight Message-ID: >> >At 06:54 PM 15/05/2003, Beatrice McKeown wrote: >>Radar died quietly in his sleep this afternoon curled up on the sofa next >>to >>Michial who then had the devastating task of rushing him to the vet and >>then >>phoning me at work. >>We are both distraught although we know that we had won all of the battles >>possible and were on a losing curve. I'm very sorry to hear that. Hugs and blessings on you and Radar. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From jmjm at sprint.ca Sun May 18 03:17:55 2003 From: jmjm at sprint.ca (Doug Mitchell) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 22:17:55 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: How do you backup your OE mail, addresses,..? References: <017c01c31cd0$6ff972e0$507b6395@9ep9u> <3EC6E863.9080901@mark.org.il> Message-ID: <001201c31ce3$b26010e0$45716395@9ep9u> Mark, I really appreciate the information re OE backup. I just completed, as per instructions, a backup of my email, address book and favourites. I was able to copy all of this AND all my word processing files AND spreadsheet files to a 256 MB flashcard with space to spare! Incredible. Thanks again. Doug Btw, how did you come across this particular site? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A.R." > Doug Mitchell wrote: > > I would be lost without my email messages, addresses and bookmarks. > However > > these things seem more difficult to track down in Windows Explorer. What > > suggestions do you have for a beginner for backing up these > folders/files so > > that I could restore them if my hard drive failed? > As for your question, check out http://www.my3web.com/help/backup_email.html > > This page explains pretty much everything w.r.t/your query. --------________--------________-------- From Pouncer at aol.com Sun May 18 03:18:04 2003 From: Pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 22:18:04 EDT Subject: [LMB] auto myths ot: Message-ID: Kay: > > But the Chrysler > >Myth just... won't... die. > It keeps getting dredged up There's a 'folk' song, (performed, tho I think not written, by Arlo Guthrie) about it. " ... If you're a corporate Titanic and your failure is gigantic down in Congress is a safety net for you.. SO I'm changing my name to Chrysler, I'm headed down to Washington D.C. I will tell some power broker what was good for Iaoccoa would be perfectly acceptable to me... When they hand a zillion grand out I'll be standing with my hand out, Yes sir, I'll get mine!" Regardless of the facts, the song is liable to be better remembered. Sort of like "Roger Rabbit" immortalized the myth of a gigantic corporation (GM?) buying up and killing Los Angeles street car lines. It slightly amuses me to consider that when the Germans (via Mercedes Benz) finally got their hands on the production lines for that American Classic, "The Jeep" (once an "Rambler/American" product, later Chrysler) the U.S. Rambo-wannabe market shifted over to GM and the civilian version of the "Hummer." As far as I know, there is not, so far, a song about the Hummer. C.W. McCall has, after all, retired. But any day now... --------________--------________-------- From Pouncer at aol.com Sun May 18 03:28:28 2003 From: Pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 22:28:28 EDT Subject: [LMB] liable to learn? ot: Message-ID: <1cd.9c17db9.2bf849cc@aol.com> Paula L: > >>And by that age, they ain't liable to larn how, > >> nohow. > > >That's not true.... Charlemagne was far into adulthood when he learned to > >read and write. > > Well, that's certainly a more interesting anecdote than the one about Grandma Moses learning to paint at age 90, or whatever. I don't know that either indicates the l degree of likelihood of later-life learning. Perhaps this is a dialectical disagreement? I invoke the yokel construction "ain't liable to" meaning that the likelihood is slim -- say, less than one chance in ten. If Paula, or others, infer instead "ain't liable to" means "can never" or "less than a chance in a thousand" then we might actually be in agreement on some intermediate probability. --------________--------________-------- From mark at mark.org.il Sun May 18 04:53:09 2003 From: mark at mark.org.il (Mark A.R.) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 05:53:09 +0200 Subject: [LMB] OT: How do you backup your OE mail, addresses,..? In-Reply-To: <001201c31ce3$b26010e0$45716395@9ep9u> References: <017c01c31cd0$6ff972e0$507b6395@9ep9u> <3EC6E863.9080901@mark.org.il> <001201c31ce3$b26010e0$45716395@9ep9u> Message-ID: <3EC703A5.5000101@mark.org.il> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I'm not sure what exactly you meant by "this particular site". The page with the back-up instructions? A Google[1] search. This list and/or the Nexus? Again, a simple web search did the trick. [1] http://www.google.com P.S. If I'm coming up with overly simplistic and basic replies (technicality-wise), then I apologize; I have no knowledge of your technical level. I'm just aiming towards the lowest common denominator here, as communication with clients taught me to never use technobabble. Doug Mitchell wrote: > Mark, I really appreciate the information re OE backup. I just completed, as > per instructions, a backup of my email, address book and favourites. I was > able to copy all of this AND all my word processing files AND spreadsheet > files to a 256 MB flashcard with space to spare! Incredible. > > Thanks again. > > Doug > > Btw, how did you come across this particular site? > - -- ++---------------------------------------------++ + Mark A. Rappoport, web developer. + + Public key at http://me.mark.org.il/key.txt + ++---------------------------------------------++ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1-nr1 (Windows XP) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE+xwOpkPyB1zKqAsgRAkv3AJwKYBGw/Rpr7DHBXLhbZ8yiRKQASwCfR3WY FTGhx+ZaY/ZymZ8EdGggA2w= =r4Yd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Sun May 18 03:53:55 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 19:53:55 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling OT: Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 06:11:39 -0700 From: Christopher Gwyn:Re: >I would tend to agree - except, as you noted, for the age 10 part. I would want everyone 'educated in the basics of each path' so that when people want, or need, to switch paths they aren't having to start all over at the bottom... For example a kid might show a lot of promise as a mathematician, and be strongly encouraged to develop that promise, but still learn how to be a good machinist, chef, tailor, etc. And someone who doesn't show any promise as a mathematician would still be exposed to math beyond basic arithmetic for two reasons: one that he or she might actually have some talent in that direction (and should not be denied the pleasure of developing it) and two, that this person will grow up to be a citizen and will need to have at least some exposure to 'the whole of civilization' in order to facilitate making informed decisions.< Hi, Christopher and all! Yes, of course, it only makes sense to have all students learn both the basics - and what appeals to them. Clearly, studying literature is not the only pathway to learning literary analysis (although it helps ), and being exposed to the classics, mathematics (for all the good the math did me ), and other disciplines is extremely important. My disagreement is with the "one size fits all you must go to college to be a success" push (and I have an undergraduate and graduate degrees, so I'm not exactly opposed to the college track). I would like to see pride restored in whatever position or job well done. We all know that intuitively, but the blaring message is stay in school and go to college. If someone less capable *wants* to go to college, that's different. Hard work often beats out lazy brains in the long run. But I would like to see kids have options that don't feel like they are making a second-rate choice. I also think the idea of making teachers' raises merit based by how many passing students they have is a really lousy one. Grade inflation is going to be very popular, for one, and how fair is that to teachers who are willing to work with kids who need extra help? Or kids who simply don't care and don't want to do the work? Those do exist, and even a really good teacher can't reach everybody (I taught German and ESL for a number of years before I jumped off the cliff into the legal waters). >The current system is 'breeding malcontents', on all sides. 'Well-educated' people who have no idea how the physical, economic and political aspects of their civilization works are apt to make decisions whose consequences they don't like, just as people who would be happiest and most productive attending to the 'non-college track aspects of life' are likely to make decisions whose consequences they don't like if they have no idea what the world is like beyond their day to day existence. Additionally - not knowing how things work, no matter what things they are, is a constant source of anxiety...< Very true. Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From JoatSimeon at aol.com Sun May 18 04:00:11 2003 From: JoatSimeon at aol.com (JoatSimeon at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 23:00:11 EDT Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling OT: Message-ID: <44.31482b54.2bf8513b@aol.com> In a message dated 5/17/03 8:55:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time, lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com writes: > And someone who doesn't show > any promise as a mathematician would still be exposed to > math beyond basic arithmetic for two reasons: -- in my case, it was a complete waste of time; I scraped by in secondary school math, and promptly forgot virtually everything beyond basic arithmetic within a year of graduating. I had neither interest, nor natural aptitude. --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Sun May 18 04:57:28 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 23:57:28 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on "selfishness" Message-ID: <3EC70406.A2C61671@marna.ca> Richard Macdonald wrote: > Who do you want to control the spending on your healthcare: > A. Yourself. > B. Your HMO > C. Congress > > Think long and hard on this before answering. That would be C, if I'm allowed to substitute the House of Parliment. Which in fact includes input (and money) from me. I don't have to think very hard about it; I've been living with it for 33 years. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From iosef at gothic.net.au Sun May 18 05:17:30 2003 From: iosef at gothic.net.au (I) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:17:30 +1000 Subject: [LMB] auto myths ot: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20030518141515.00b68220@mail.gothic.net.au> At 12:18 PM 18/05/2003, you wrote: >There's a 'folk' song, (performed, tho I think not >written, by Arlo Guthrie) about it. Tom Paxton, "I'm changing my name to Chrysler" from the CD "Politics - Live" Written at the time of the initial announcement. Iestyn --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at iee.org Sun May 18 07:00:02 2003 From: jbryant at iee.org (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 07:00:02 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Trans-Siberian Express 0T: In-Reply-To: <200305172210.h4HMAAr5003131@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030518065746.039dcb38@pop.luna.co.uk> Bo Johansson tells me that of my links on http://www.luna.co.uk/~jbryant/siberia.htm >The first 30 images are mis-labeled.... Ouch! So they were. Sorry. They're not now - James --------________--------________-------- From cgwyn at w-link.net Sun May 18 06:01:15 2003 From: cgwyn at w-link.net (Christopher Gwyn) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 22:01:15 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling OT: References: <44.31482b54.2bf8513b@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EC7139B.77FA50E@w-link.net> JoatSimeon at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/17/03 8:55:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com writes: >> And someone who doesn't show any promise >> as a mathematician would still be exposed to >> math beyond basic arithmetic for two reasons: > -- in my case, it was a complete waste of time; I scraped by in secondary > school math, and promptly forgot virtually everything beyond basic arithmetic > within a year of graduating. I had neither interest, nor natural aptitude. You may not have had interest or aptitude, but as long as not displaying interest or aptitude isn't treated as some sort of sign of overall inferiority you probably benefit from being exposed to some trigonometry, calculus, geometry, and so on. cheers, christopher -- Christopher Gwyn cgwyn at w-link.net http://members.w-link.net/~cgwyn/index.htm --------________--------________-------- From mike at dendarii.co.uk Sun May 18 09:25:51 2003 From: mike at dendarii.co.uk (Michael Bernardi) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 08:25:51 BST Subject: [LMB] Lois-Bujold Mailing List Administrivia FAQ Message-ID: <31956@dendarii.co.uk> Last-Modified: 28 October 2002 Version: 3.0.2 URL: http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_admin.html Other FAQs ---------- Lois-Bujold Mailing List FAQ (list etiquette and conventions, links, merchandising): http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_lst.html Plot FAQ (plot questions, pronounciation guides): http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_faq.html Biographical and Bibliographical FAQ (Lois herself, and book details): http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_bio.html Lois-Bujold Mailing List Administrivia FAQ ------------------------------------------ 1. What is this list anyhow? 2. How do I subscribe to the list? 3. I forgot my password! What do I do? 4. How do I unsubscribe to the list? 5. How do I send messages to the list? 6. Is there any way to cut down the amount of mail from the list? 7. I'm going on holiday, how do I pause the list? 8. Who is the list owner, anyway? 9. Where are the archives for this list? 10. How can list mail be filtered from the rest of my mail? 11. How can I get help on setting other list options? 12. I see lots of extra header lines in each e-mail. What can I do? 1. What is this list anyhow? This mailing list is for the discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold, the award winning science fiction and fantasy author. It is currently unmoderated. 2. How do I subscribe to the list? You can do this in two ways. You can either: 1) point a web browser at http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold and follow the instructions there, or 2) send mail to lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk and in the subject or the body of the message, put the word subscribe Both of these options will require that you confirm your subscription by replying to a mail that will be sent to the address you give. If you have problems with this, contact the list owner (see below). 3. How do I unsubscribe from the list? You can do this in two ways. (Do you sense a pattern here?) You can either: 1) visit the list configuration web page by going to: http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold . Enter the e-mail address under which you are subscribed at the bottom of the page where it says "Lois-Bujold Subscribers", and click the "Edit Options" button. Enter your list password in the appropriate box and click the "Unsubscribe" button. Or, 2) send a mail message to Lois-Bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk with the following in the subject line or in the message body: UNSUBSCRIBE Do not include the "<>"s in the e-mail. If you are not sending this e-mail from the address you are subscribed under, use this format: UNSUBSCRIBE Again, if you have problems with this, contact the list owner. 4. I forgot my password! What do I do? One option is to wait. Your password will be e-mailed to you in a reminder message about once a month. The other method for getting your password is to visit the list web page: http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold Scroll to the bottom of the page where it says "Lois-Bujold Subscribers". Enter the e-mail address under which you are subscribed, and click the "Edit Options" button. The next page has a button to have your password sent to your e-mail address. 5. How do I send messages to the list? Messages for the list at large should be sent to lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk There is no requirement to follow any threads that may already be in progress. Feel free to start discussion on anything you like, as long as it's at least vaguely relevant, (or even if it isn't). Off-topic posts should be marked with the off-topic marker of "OT:" (all three characters are required). See more dicsussion of off-topic posts in the Off-Topic FAQ. Flaming, and rudeness in general, is strongly discouraged. 6. Is there any way to cut down the amount of mail from the list? Assuming that you do not want to leave the list altogether, you can switch to "digest mode". You will receive a few large e-mails each day which bundle the individual messages. Digests can be sent in plain text or MIME format. You can set your subscription to the digest mode in two ways. 1) Visit the list configuration web page by going to: http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold entering the e-mail address under which you are subscribed at the bottom of the page where it says "Lois-Bujold Subscribers", and clicking the "Edit Options" button. Use the radio buttons to set Digest Mode to On, and also to select the format you prefer for the digest messages. Enter your list password in the box at the bottom of the page, and click the "Submit My Changes" button. Or, 2) E-mail the list processor (lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk) with the following in the subject line or in the message body: SET DIGEST ON Do not include the "<>"s in the e-mail. To return to individual messages, use mail from either of them, use the command SET DIGEST OFF You may also choose to receive no mail, and read the list archives on the Web. See FAQ #7 for how to stop incoming mail, and FAQ #9 for accessing the list archives. 7. I'm going on holiday, how do I pause the list? If you are going away for a SHORT period and do not want a massive buildup of list mail in your mail box, but you don't want to permanantly resign from the list, you can disable mail delivery from the list. You might also do this if you want to read the list on the Web, but still want to be able to send messages to the list. You can set your subscription to nomail in two ways. Either: 1) Visit the list configuration web page by going to: http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold enter the e-mail address under which you are subscribed at the bottom of the page under "Lois-Bujold Subscribers", and click the "Edit Options" button. Change the radio button under "Disable mail delivery" to "On", enter your list password in the box at the bottom of the page, and click the "Submit My Changes" button. Or, 2) E-mail the list processor (lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk) with the following in the subject line or in the message body: SET NOMAIL ON When you get back, reset to normal by sending an e-mail to the same address: SET NOMAIL OFF 8. Who is the list owner, anyway? The list owner is Mel Harper . She owns the computer the list runs on and any technical problems or queries about the running of the list should be directed to her. Any queries about joining or leaving which cannot be answered using the help available from the mail server should also be addressed to Mel. Any question about list etiquette, the FAQs, and the Web site should be directed to Michael Bernardi , who was responsible for the initial creation of the list in October 1994. FAQ updates are now handled by Nancy Barber Do _not_ send problems about your subscription or complaints about the list administration such to the list at large. 9. Where are the archives for this list? The messages sent to this list are automatically archived. The archives are located at: http://lists.herald.co.uk/pipermail/lois-bujold/ . This is particularly useful if for some reason you miss some postings. In December 2001, the list changed from one listserver software (Listproc) to another (Mailman). The archives of the older listserver will be integrated into the new archives shortly. In the meantime, the older archived digests can be accessed at: http://lists.herald.co.uk/old-archives/lois-bujold/ . 10. How can list mail be filtered from the rest of my mail? As of December 2001, e-mail from the list is tagged with "[LMB]" in the Subject: line. You can sort all mail containing that string into a dedicated mail folder if your e-mail program supports this. If your e-mail program doesn't support filtering, simply sorting your inbox on the Subject: will help, but as some mailers insert "Re:" before the list tag and others after (and some mailers use "Sv:" as a reply marker), this solution is not ideal. In more sophisticated e-mail programs, you can set your mail program to sort on the header field "To:" or "Reply-To:", both of which will be "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk". 11. How can I get help on setting other list options? Send e-mail to lois-Bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk and put the word "Help" (without the quotes) in either the subject or body of the e-mail. 12. I see lots of extra header lines in each e-mail. What can I do? The mailing list software inserts a number of header lines into each post, such as: List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: ,
List-Id: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold.
List-Unsubscribe: ,
List-Archive: If you are using a UNIX mail program, you can probably tell the mailer to ignore all headers beginning with "List-". If you are using Eudora for the PC or the Mac, see the Web version of this FAQ for instructions on hiding the extra headers: http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_admin.html#headers FAQ History ----------- Version 3.0.2 Removed link to FTP location of old list archives Version 3.0.1 Changed URL for old list archives Version 3.0.0 Rewritten for Mailman software and list server changes. Also some reformatting, including adding the list of questions at the beginning. Moved "other online groups" to main FAQ. Revison by Nancy Barber. Version 2.2.2 Minor ammendments, including changing the address of "The Bujold Nexus" to www.dendarii.com Version 2.2.1 Added info on how to pause the list, and other minor ammendments Version 2.2.0 Added new Plot FAQ Version 2.1.7 Minor ammendments Version 2.1.4 Included as part of Lois McMaster Bujold Home Page which was created at the beginning of May 1996 Version 2.1.2 Added details of Digest Archive Version 2.1.1 End of year revisions Version 2.1.0 Changed e-mail address to mike at dendarii.demon.co.uk Version 2.0.2 Added details of Publishers' Web sites Version 2.0.1 A few minor cosmetic changes Version 2.0 List moved to lois-bujold at herald.co.uk after UEL list was closed, at the beginning of May 1995. The mailing list was re-opened at its new site on 22 May 1995, with much thanks to Melanie Dymond Harper. Version 1.3 Changed FAQ posting software Version 1.2 Added information on getting this file via listserver Version 1.1 Added information about general Lois-Bujold_FAQ Version 1.0 Started 8 August 1994. The mailing list was opened to the general public on 30 October 1994. This document compiled by Michael Bernardi from an example provided by Melanie Dymond Harper. Suggestions for material to be included in this document should be sent to lmb-faq at dendarii.com . Copyright 1994/2002 by Michael Bernardi. This file may be freely distributed provided that it remains unedited from its current form. Sections may be quoted for reference providing its source is given. It may be printed out for personal use. --------________--------________-------- From rmacdonald at microd.com Sun May 18 10:04:51 2003 From: rmacdonald at microd.com (Richard Macdonald) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 05:04:51 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on "selfishness" References: <3EC70406.A2C61671@marna.ca> Message-ID: <3EC74CB3.1D7885E8@microd.com> Marna Nightingale wrote: > > Richard Macdonald wrote: > > > Who do you want to control the spending on your healthcare: > > A. Yourself. > > B. Your HMO > > C. Congress > > > > Think long and hard on this before answering. > > That would be C, if I'm allowed to substitute the House of Parliment. > > Which in fact includes input (and money) from me. > > I don't have to think very hard about it; I've been living with it for 33 > years. And how has their spending budget gone the last few years? -- Richard A. Macdonald. CPA/EA SSG (Ret), USA, ADA 16P34 Dedicated follower of Fr Luca Paccioli, Master Juggler. Delenda est Carthago -- Cato the Elder --------________--------________-------- From pnewman at gci.net Sun May 18 10:26:13 2003 From: pnewman at gci.net (Peter Newman) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 01:26:13 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: References: <200305180729.h4I7T5r5009517@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EC751B5.3060905@gci.net> Christopher Gwyn wrote > JoatSimeon at aol.com wrote: > >>In a message dated 5/17/03 8:55:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time, >>lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com writes: >> >>>And someone who doesn't show any promise >>>as a mathematician would still be exposed to >>>math beyond basic arithmetic for two reasons: >> >>-- in my case, it was a complete waste of time; I scraped by in secondary >>school math, and promptly forgot virtually everything beyond basic arithmetic >>within a year of graduating. I had neither interest, nor natural aptitude. > > You may not have had interest or aptitude, but as long as > not displaying interest or aptitude isn't treated as some > sort of sign of overall inferiority you probably benefit > from being exposed to some trigonometry, calculus, geometry, > and so on. What benefit did he receive from studying things that he forgot within a year of graduating? Perhaps he learned that he could do them but wouldn't his time, and that of his instructors, have been better spent at something else, something he'd actually use in his adult life? Suppose he'd spent that time on learning how to make sure that his publisher was accurately calculating and paying his royalties, or the history of the bronze age, or the like? ;) The question isn't 'Did it have any value?' the question is 'Would something else have had more value?' Unless a persons knowledge in an area _directly_ affects others (as knowledge of their system of government might for people living in a democracy) than shouldn't they, or their parents or guardians at least, have more say in it? If all the time Steve spent in his high school math classes was a waste maybe it would have been better for him to have skipped them all, graduated a semester earlier, and gone on to something else? It might also have been better for his local taxpayers if they didn't have to pay for his being in math classes that did not benefit him. (I'm taking him at his word that they did not, as he knows himself better than we ever will.) -- Did you ever wonder if Lassie had Munchausen by Proxy? Timmy sure seemed to fall down a lot of wells. Peter Newman pnewman at gci.net --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Sun May 18 16:47:45 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 17:47:45 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: How do you backup your OE mail, addresses,..? In-Reply-To: <017c01c31cd0$6ff972e0$507b6395@9ep9u> Message-ID: <20030518154745.26770.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> Oh. So you're not talking about Old English mail and addresses. Right...excuse me, moving right along... Joy --- Doug Mitchell a icrit : > It used to be the case that data files were what we worried about losing. But > I would be lost without my email messages, addresses and bookmarks. ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Sun May 18 16:50:01 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 17:50:01 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] auto myths ot: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030518155001.61005.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pouncer at aol.com a icrit : > Sort of like "Roger Rabbit" immortalized the > myth of a gigantic corporation (GM?) buying > up and killing Los Angeles street car lines. According to my husband, this actually did happen in St. Louis, where he grew up. Joy ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Sun May 18 17:34:35 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:34:35 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Career tracks Message-ID: <179.1a7e65c7.2bf9101b@aol.com> How many of you knew what you were going to be at age 14 to 16? I surely didn't. I started college as an English major, changed to biology with a specialty in field botany, went into graduate work in marine biology, then when I married and moved inland, gave it up for a while and then re-entered grad school as a physiology major, which I mostly used as a litigation paralegal working for my husband. Does that sound like planning? If I'd had good sense, I would have gone to law school--by the time I even found out what a lawyer did for a living, I was into my thirties, and by the time I found out that I enjoyed doing that sort of thing, I was considerably older than that. I know several young people who took the easy track in high school--tech math, the easier English courses, etc., then had to go through a couple of years of remedial work before they could handle college math to the extent that someone training to be a teacher needs. A college dean once asked me if I knew why so many students now take five years to graduate from college, while in my time four was considered usual and many graduated in three or three-and-a-half. The answer was that too many of them weren't properly prepared by high schools that allowed them to pick a technical track at too early an age, then they were stuck with all the remedial academic classes for a year or more. Mary > >>lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com writes: > >> > >>>And someone who doesn't show any promise > >>>as a mathematician would still be exposed to > >>>math beyond basic arithmetic > > What benefit did he receive from studying things that he > forgot within a year of graduating? > > The question isn't 'Did it have any value?' the question > is 'Would something else have had more value?' Unless a > persons knowledge in an area _directly_ affects others (as > knowledge of their system of government might for people > living in a democracy) than shouldn't they, or their parents > or guardians at least, have more say in it? If all the time > Steve spent in his high school math classes was a waste > maybe it would have been better for him to have skipped > them all, graduated a semester earlier, and gone on to > something else? It might also have been better for his > local taxpayers if they didn't have to pay for his being > in math classes that did not benefit him. (I'm taking > him at his word that they did not, as he knows himself > better than we ever will.) --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Sun May 18 17:43:58 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 09:43:58 -0700 Subject: [LMB] auto myths OT: In-Reply-To: <20030518155001.61005.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030518155001.61005.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EC7B84E.5050004@lvhot.org> Joyeuse wrote: > --- Pouncer at aol.com a icrit : >> Sort of like "Roger Rabbit" immortalized the myth of a >> gigantic corporation (GM?) buying up and killing Los Angeles >> street car lines. > According to my husband, this actually did happen in St. Louis, > where he grew up. That would be National City Lines, a consortium of GM, Firestone Rubber and Standard Oil that bought many electric transit lines and converted them to diesel bus operations. In at least one case (Johnstown, PA?) they bought the company as new modern streetcars were being delivered and disposed of the PCCs without ever running them. They were eventually convicted of conspiracy, long after the fact. I won't clutter up the list the details, there are plenty of sources. I'll also note that most streetcar companies were not in good condition by that time. Robert Parks --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Sun May 18 17:43:15 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:43:15 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Health care Message-ID: <1ab.14fcc3ba.2bf91223@aol.com> It could be worse. Did you ever read the book "Bad Blood," which told the story of an experiment done by the US on advanced syphilis in which they did not tell a group of patients in the South that they had the disease (which was treatable at that time), then followed their deterioration? It was appalling. The patients involved were black, but so were some of the doctors and nurses that did this to them, their sexual contacts, children, etc. I don't remember the name of the movie about it, which was cleaned up drastically from the book, but it starred Alfre Woodard. "Miss (Somebody's) Boys," I think. Mary > Azalais Malfoy wrote: > > > >This is precisely why I don't think single-payer will work in the > >US. We're a puritan society, in many respects. And I won't > >support it unless health care is treated as a defense issue, > >because it wasn't so long ago that many doctors wouldn't treat > >sexually transmitted diseases, viewing them as punishment for > >wrong-doing. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Sun May 18 17:48:26 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:48:26 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: FDA Message-ID: <84.111b32e1.2bf9135a@aol.com> Comment on Jim Reynolds' post: Better than that, remember thalidomide? The FDA was also founded to keep dangerous substances that had not been adequately tested out of the country. "First, do no harm." Mary > Oh? What drugs are these? What about the FDA's role in preventing > quackery (Anyone here remember Laetrile?) and forcing the pharmacology > industry to prove that their products are safe (at least for the > majority of patients) , rather than letting drugs on the market because > we gotta keep the Wall Streeters happy? > > The FDA was founded to protect the public from fraud and trickery. It > -must- err on the far side of caution. Unless, of course, you and your > family don't mind the role of guinea pig. Caveat emptor, and all that. > > *** Jim Reynolds --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Sun May 18 17:52:14 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 16:52:14 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on "selfishness" Message-ID: <20030518.095308.2340.47210@webmail04.lax.untd.com> Marna opines: "That would be C, if I'm allowed to substitute the House of Parliment." [for Congress in "who do you want controlling who decides what's spent on your health care" -KAE]... " Which in fact includes input (and money) from me. I don't have to think very hard about it; I've been living with it for 33 years." Mmm. Yes. But Canada, like most of Europe, has been sponging of U.S. R&D for decades too. Plus... well, lets just say I wouldn't want to come down with anything that required surgery in under a year out in the provinces... Still, Canada's held it together for a few generations now without experiencing Soviet [or U.K*]-style medicine--IMO, a tribute to the essential decency and commonsense of the Average Canadian. Kirsten Edwards *some reports differ, though. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From christine at forber.net Sun May 18 18:05:22 2003 From: christine at forber.net (Christine Forber) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 13:05:22 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on "selfishness" In-Reply-To: <20030518.095308.2340.47210@webmail04.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: At 04:52 PM 5/18/2003 +0000, Kirsten Edwards wrote: > >Mmm. Yes. But Canada, like most of Europe, has been sponging >of U.S. R&D for decades too. Plus... well, lets just say I >wouldn't want to come down with anything that required surgery >in under a year out in the provinces... I believe that the negative reports have been vastly exaggerated esp in the US. My mother had a lumpectomy for breast cancer within 3 weeks and radiation treatment started as soon as she'd recovered from the operation. Any medical tests that I've needed have been available within a short period of time. Sure there are horror stories of folks who've had to wait far too long, but there are also many "success" stories that nobody hears about. Weighing it all in the balance, I far prefer our system to that south of the border. My personal opinion. Christine Mississauga, Ontario --------________--------________-------- From pam at gotcher.us Sun May 18 18:06:39 2003 From: pam at gotcher.us (Pam) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:06:39 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on "selfishness" References: Message-ID: <08e101c31d5f$d95dd610$6c3a0144@Laptop> Now, if you all could consider legislation that allows Segways I'd definitely consider a move to Canada . Pam ----- Original Message ----- From: Christine Forber To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on "selfishness" At 04:52 PM 5/18/2003 +0000, Kirsten Edwards wrote: > >Mmm. Yes. But Canada, like most of Europe, has been sponging >of U.S. R&D for decades too. Plus... well, lets just say I >wouldn't want to come down with anything that required surgery >in under a year out in the provinces... I believe that the negative reports have been vastly exaggerated esp in the US. My mother had a lumpectomy for breast cancer within 3 weeks and radiation treatment started as soon as she'd recovered from the operation. Any medical tests that I've needed have been available within a short period of time. Sure there are horror stories of folks who've had to wait far too long, but there are also many "success" stories that nobody hears about. Weighing it all in the balance, I far prefer our system to that south of the border. My personal opinion. Christine Mississauga, Ontario -- Lois-Bujold mailing list Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold --------________--------________-------- From nrusson at rogers.com Sun May 18 18:37:25 2003 From: nrusson at rogers.com (nrusson at rogers.com) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 13:37:25 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on "selfishness" Message-ID: <20030518173725.IDH9289.fep01-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers .com@localhost> Christine Forber wrote: > I believe that the negative reports have been vastly exaggerated esp in the > US. My mother had a lumpectomy for breast cancer within 3 weeks and > radiation treatment started as soon as she'd recovered from the operation. > Any medical tests that I've needed have been available within a short period > of time. Sure there are horror stories of folks who've had to wait far too > long, but there are also many "success" stories that nobody hears about. > Weighing it all in the balance, I far prefer our system to that south of the > border. My personal opinion. Christine's mother's experience is certainly valid for her, in her area, at that time. My wife's experience was somewhat worse, in that she had to wait for several months for gall bladder surgery that was "elective", even though she was having extremely painful attacks that kept her from many activities (including several days of work) during that time. Perhaps had we lived in a major urban area, our experiences would have been different. (We live about 30 miles east of Toronto). YMMV, as they say. Regards, Nicholas The (bitter about the bastards in the medical system) other one --------________--------________-------- From iosef at gothic.net.au Sun May 18 18:45:38 2003 From: iosef at gothic.net.au (I) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 03:45:38 +1000 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on "selfishness" In-Reply-To: <20030518.095308.2340.47210@webmail04.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20030519034421.00b6fcd0@mail.gothic.net.au> We are now on Political ground.... very. Pizza please. Iestyn --------________--------________-------- From jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu Sun May 18 19:27:17 2003 From: jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu (Jason Bontrager) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 13:27:17 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: In-Reply-To: <3EC751B5.3060905@gci.net> References: <200305180729.h4I7T5r5009517@lists.herald.co.uk> <3EC751B5.3060905@gci.net> Message-ID: <3EC7D085.20705@mail.utexas.edu> Peter Newman wrote: > > Perhaps he learned that he could do them but wouldn't his > time, and that of his instructors, have been better spent > at something else, something he'd actually use in his > adult life? The problem with this is that it's virtually impossible to know in advance how useful the knoweldge would or would not have been. He couldn't know the higher maths would be useless (for him) until he tried to learn them. Jason B. --------________--------________-------- From nancy at dendarii.com Sun May 18 19:28:18 2003 From: nancy at dendarii.com (Nancy Barber) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:28:18 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Chalion Dictionary has moved Message-ID: I've finally moved the Chalion Dictionary (pronunciations and definitions for people, places, and things in Chalion) to its permanent home on the Bujold Nexus: http://www.dendarii.com/dict-chalion.html The Dictionary also is linked from the Chalion index page there, and I'll set up a re-direct page shortly at the old location. As always, such things are a work in progress (and I'm starting on the new stuff from _Paladin_ already), so it will change over time. Pronunciations and some of the definitions have been vetted by Lois. However, errors can occur and nothing is guaranteed. Thanks to all who have assisted with getting it this far. Nancy Barber --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Sun May 18 20:19:40 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:19:40 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling OT: Message-ID: JoatSimeon at aol.com: Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 23:00:11 EDT >lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com writes:< > >And someone who doesn't show >>any promise as a mathematician would still be exposed to > >math beyond basic arithmetic for two reasons: >-- in my case, it was a complete waste of time; I scraped by in secondary school math, and promptly forgot virtually everything beyond basic arithmetic within a year of graduating. I had neither interest, nor natural aptitude. < Hi, Steve and all! Heavens, wrong attribute ! I think it was Christopher Gwynn responding to me. I do think that math is important, and all students should be exposed to the basics, but as someone who is exactly in your shoes, mathematically speaking, I can hardly be the spokesperson for the Math Education Corps . I had to take algebra twice (got bored with it as a freshman in high school and made the mistake of putting a novel in my book and reading in class - by the time I finished the book, I was hopelessly lost!) and the only reason I passed geometry was because the teacher discovered that we were the same sun sign...I did NOT deserve to pass! In college, I so enjoyed the two years each of geology and anthropology that I considered switching majors from German. Right up until the 3 year curriculum showed that math was going to be needed. What was funny were the results of the GRE exam for graduate school: the math was quite literally at one end of the scale and the rest was at the other...I always pictured the scorers wondering if this poor person had had brain damage on one side of her head . Frank, civil engineer who loves math, insists that I could be taught by the proper methods, but I think I am just lackilng the math gene! Jim - what do you think? Not about me specifically , but in general? Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --------________--------________-------- From mail at stephenthomas.uklinux.net Sun May 18 20:26:54 2003 From: mail at stephenthomas.uklinux.net (Stephen Thomas) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 20:26:54 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Career tracks In-Reply-To: <179.1a7e65c7.2bf9101b@aol.com> References: <179.1a7e65c7.2bf9101b@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EC7DE7E.4040904@stephenthomas.uklinux.net> CatMtn at aol.com wrote: > How many of you knew what you were going to be at age 14 to 16? I wouldn't say my life track has been at all planned, although it has turned out fairly well, considering. What seems to have happened is that as each educational phase approached its end, I'd look around and see what I wanted to do next, decide upon something and then set the wheels in motion to achieve that immediate aim. At age 16 I had a clutch of mediocre 'O' levels, sufficient to make going for 'A' levels not a laughable idea. So, I tried doing maths, physics and chemistry for 'A' level, because everyone said that's what was required for a scientific/technological career. Really, really bad move. Chemistry was my weakest subject (the way it was taught at the time meant that I could not perceive any discernable system to it). To cut a story short, after a year I switched to a different institution and studied maths, computing and psychology - I chose psych because it sounded interesting, but as it happened the stats stuff really helped bolster my maths. I did computing because I just knew I was good at it. So, at 19 I had a clutch of fairly mediocre (again) 'A' levels, but sufficient to get me into the college of my choice to do computer science. And there I hit my stride, and I left college with a 1st class honours degree, four years later. However, it wasn't until my final college year that I learned what I wanted to do next. I took a course about functional programming which was like a revelation for me. After college I went on to do a PhD for 3 years, then became a university lecturer for 3 years. Then I got bored with academia and I've been a software engineer ever since (about 8 years now). So, no overall master plan, just rather carefully considering my options when a fork in the road appears (and initially messing up my 'A' levels shows that I could still get things wrong). I did know that I wanted to go to college and get a degree from the outset, but I did not start things about post-grad options until the end of my college course was about a year off. What advice would I give? Don't plan the details, just know your overall goals - you will be required to be flexible. Permit your goals to change - the person you are will change quite radically as you go through this time (or at least, it should), so things that are appropriate for you when you are 16 will not be sensible when you are 25. When choosing courses, try to include something that is a big contrast to your "major" area of study, in particular something that requires you to think and study in different ways. This will keep your mind flexible. Stephen --------________--------________-------- From djhagan at atlantic.net Sun May 18 21:36:02 2003 From: djhagan at atlantic.net (Diana Hagan) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 16:36:02 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Callng Mark & Kareen In-Reply-To: <20735-3EC585BB-3735@storefull-2371.public.lawson.webtv.net > References: <20735-3EC585BB-3735@storefull-2371.public.lawson.webtv.net> Message-ID: <1053290162.3ec7eeb2d9e7c@webmail.atlantic.net> Quoting Jane Hotchkiss : > music > inspired by John Keats' ode about a maiden whose swain had been beheaded > by her family (at which I started attending to the announcer) & his head > planted in a _pot of basil_. Of course I hadn't been paying attention at > that point to the composer's name or the title of the work, so can't > cite it for you all. The Keats ode is online at bartleby.com: http://www.bartleby.com/126/38.html An English translation of Boccaccio's story is available through Brown University's Decameron Web (Fifth story of Day 4): http://dev.stg.brown.edu:1977/decameron/engDecShowText.jsp? myID=nov0405&expand=day04 Diana ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your friends have Atlantic.Net! Why dont you? Call (800) 921-9328 to get fast, reliable Internet service for only $19.95/mo. or visit www.atlantic.net to learn more. --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Sun May 18 22:56:54 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 09:56:54 +1200 Subject: [LMB] OT: City Payroll and Wage Slaves In-Reply-To: <00a401c31b7e$a62be670$3201a8c0@mbaxis> Message-ID: > Of course. If there are serious consequences to city services, it > will be obvious that those people were not a waste of money. > > However, based upon the number of people on this city's payroll, > and based on the absolute non-effect of laying of 3,000 of them, > I am projecting that the city will be able to lay off 10,000 more > without serious consequences. There will probably be some > denigration in some of the services the city provides, but I > project that it will be almost unnoticeable to the average > resident. If my projections hold true, then those 13,000 city > employees will have been a waste of money for years. On the other hand, laying them off will simply add 13,000 people to the dole queues. Which the government then has to pay anyway. While they were getting paid more on the cities payroll they would also have been spending and providing other people with income and generally helping keep the economy ticking over. Life is all swings and roundabouts, but eventually someone somewhere has to pay to maintain the park. Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Sun May 18 23:10:38 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 10:10:38 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > What I find unforgiveable about Tien is not the risks he took, nor even so > much the lies he told. It's the damage he did to those closest to him. Ahh, you mean like Miles did with Bothari, Elena, Mark etc Bothari - Killed due to Miles meddling. Elena - Emotionally scarred to the point where she cannot bear to remember her father no return to her home world. Mark - Hounded by Miles while making himself a life to the point where he tried to steal a portion of the Dendarii in order to prove himself. Countless unnamed people who died in battles. If anything Tien only hurt one person, who recovered, can the same be said of Miles. We focus on Miles triumphs, his successes and the stories that show him as a hero. Tien we only see as the villain, a short momentary glimpse of him through the eyes of the person he hurt the most a view that in comparrison to the one we have of Miles has to be considered a little unfair. Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From megj at nwlink.com Sun May 18 23:56:44 2003 From: megj at nwlink.com (Meg Justus) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 15:56:44 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling OT: References: <44.31482b54.2bf8513b@aol.com> Message-ID: <00c001c31d90$c271f450$84cf4b43@meg> Steve: > -- in my case, it was a complete waste of time; I scraped by in secondary > school math, and promptly forgot virtually everything beyond basic arithmetic > within a year of graduating. I had neither interest, nor natural aptitude. I would have thought, until about ten years ago, that it was a waste in my case, too. The only D I ever got in high school was in geometry, and I thought I hated math. But then I was taught to quilt, and, boy, am I glad that some of that geometry stuck. I use it on a weekly basis these days. Who'd a thunk it. You never know... Megaera who does wish someone had pushed her to take physics, too --------________--------________-------- From kknolte at ecity.net Sun May 18 18:26:23 2003 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 18:26:23 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2373 - 19 msgs References: <85FFB5A0-866B-11D7-A29E-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> <00a401c31b7e$a62be670$3201a8c0@mbaxis> Message-ID: <3EC7C23C.5964@ecity.net> Michael Bauminger wrote: > Of course. If there are serious consequences to city services, it > will be obvious that those people were not a waste of money. > > However, based upon the number of people on this city's payroll, > and based on the absolute non-effect of laying of 3,000 of them, > I am projecting that the city will be able to lay off 10,000 more > without serious consequences. There will probably be some > denigration in some of the services the city provides, but I > project that it will be almost unnoticeable to the average > resident. If my projections hold true, then those 13,000 city > employees will have been a waste of money for years. Mind specifying what those employees do, if you want to keep arguing about this? In Iowa, at least, state maintenance got creamed - and lack of preventative maintenance doesn't show up immediately by definition. For that matter, if I got laid off and you lived in Iowa, I dare say you wouldn't notice anything either - all my losing a job would mean is that it would take longer for companies to get an air construction permit so they can put in some equipment, and judging by what I've heard in conferences, Iowa's turnaround time is exceedingly fast in comparison to other states at 30 -60 days. (Frex, anyone who lives in Arizona want to talk about whether they've noticed any problems with their air quality program? What I've heard is that they have a horrible turnaround time (year or so), because the state is so cheap that by the time the person they've hired has any idea of what they're doing, they've left for someplace that pays better.) Karen And no, I don't think privatization would work in the case of my little department - it was tried a few years ago for some projects which had to be permitted after the fact [1], we picked out the easy projects, and it still took the private company a long time, was more expensive than what it would have cost us to do it [2], and we ended up rewriting half of them anyway [3]. [1] Amazing how many major companies put in equipment and forgot to mention it to us until they had to list everything due to the CAAA. [2] Last boss tried to get his pet project (someone to check out air toxics to see if IA has a problem with them or not) by pointing out that he could hire two more engineers to take over the work the private company was doing, hire an air toxics guy, and still save $100,000/year over what they were charging. Didn't work, because the legislature preferred to spend money rather than, horror of horrors, increase the size of state government. [3] Like, the poor company would note in the application that they ran the fan 20 hours/week, so even though there was no problem even if they ran it 8760 hr/yr, they ended up with a permit that told them they could only run 20/hr week, and to keep records documenting it. --------________--------________-------- From litalex at slashyalex.com Mon May 19 00:36:24 2003 From: litalex at slashyalex.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 16:36:24 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: The Matrix: Beta Testing OT: In-Reply-To: <20030517.101831.5837.99703@webmail10.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030518163459.01ca5d48@slashyalex.com> Hello, At 10:18 05/17/2003, Kirsten Edwards wrote: >"If this movie would ever end-- >Wouldn't that be worth fighting for? >Wouldn't that be worth---dying---for?" ROTFL. It wasn't *that* bad... My friends said it's going to be like the first Star Wars trilogy: the first is good, the second sucks, and the third really, really good. Let's hope he's right . little Alex --------________--------________-------- From wks at worldpath.net Mon May 19 00:41:31 2003 From: wks at worldpath.net (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 19:41:31 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EC81A2B.7040307@worldpath.net> Mandos wrote: >>What I find unforgiveable about Tien is not the risks he took, nor even so >>much the lies he told. It's the damage he did to those closest to him. > > > Ahh, you mean like Miles did with Bothari, Elena, Mark etc > > Bothari - Killed due to Miles meddling. Bothari killed HIMSELF due to not being able to handle his guilt. Miles brought it to the surface, but let's place some responsibility where it belongs. And yes, Bothari was manipulated todoing evil things under Serg. > Elena - Emotionally scarred to the point where she cannot bear to remember > her father no return to her home world. Don't you think she might LIKE the liberating climate of anywhere BUT Barayar? Bill, bored boy in NH --------________--------________-------- From wks at worldpath.net Mon May 19 00:41:37 2003 From: wks at worldpath.net (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 19:41:37 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EC81A31.5010900@worldpath.net> Mandos wrote: >>What I find unforgiveable about Tien is not the risks he took, nor even so >>much the lies he told. It's the damage he did to those closest to him. > > > Ahh, you mean like Miles did with Bothari, Elena, Mark etc > > Bothari - Killed due to Miles meddling. Bothari killed HIMSELF due to not being able to handle his guilt. Miles brought it to the surface, but let's place some responsibility where it belongs. And yes, Bothari was manipulated todoing evil things under Serg. > Elena - Emotionally scarred to the point where she cannot bear to remember > her father no return to her home world. Don't you think she might LIKE the liberating climate of anywhere BUT Barayar? Bill, bored boy in NH --------________--------________-------- From RosinaRowantree at aol.com Mon May 19 00:49:37 2003 From: RosinaRowantree at aol.com (RosinaRowantree at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 19:49:37 EDT Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling OT: Message-ID: <63.1d14e9de.2bf97611@aol.com> Lorraine, after explaining how she failed to do well in Maths said: "Frank, civil engineer who loves math, insists that I could be taught by the proper methods, but I think I am just lackilng the math gene!" I loved Maths at school, was top of the class in a grammar school, could "see" geometry, trigonometry, algebra until after O-level at age 15 when we started calculus. I just couldn't get it. It can't have been the teacher, since it was the same teacher throughout. Some thirty years later, with no further maths study, I did an Open University maths course, with calculus, and had no problem at all. Someone said earlier that children could not grasp algebra until a certain age (8th grade, or whatever). Before that they struggled, afterwards it was relatively easy. I wonder if the same thing happened to me, and perhaps to Lorraine - or in her case it could have been reading in class :-). Perhaps the brain develops different mathematical areas over time, and when the time is right the concept just fits in. Perhaps by now I could handle 5-dimensional calculations and become a jump pilot! Rosina --------________--------________-------- From zafaran at sff.net Mon May 19 00:52:36 2003 From: zafaran at sff.net (Patricia A. Swan) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 19:52:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling OT: In-Reply-To: <00c001c31d90$c271f450$84cf4b43@meg> References: <44.31482b54.2bf8513b@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030518191813.03f6a2a0@pop3.sff.net> At 03:56 PM 5/18/2003 -0700, Meg Justus wrote: >I would have thought, until about ten years ago, that [math] was a >waste in my >case, too. The only D I ever got in high school was in geometry, and I >thought I hated math. > >But then I was taught to quilt, and, boy, am I glad that some of that >geometry stuck. I use it on a weekly basis these days. Who'd a thunk >it. > >You never know... > >Megaera >who does wish someone had pushed her to take physics, too I actually like numbers, but was always lagging grade level a bit. Even when we got to HS algerbra I didn't have too much trouble with some of it and even tutored some of the other kids, but then I started hitting problem areas, and there was no one to tutor me. Grrls don't need maths. College was even worse. I tried to do the math courses, but would get into troubles in about the same place, and with the faster pace at University it meant I was in trouble even faster than before. Some of it was helped with a business math course I took at the local tech school. She was teaching us how to calculate simple interest (I=prt), and taught how to solve it as an algebraic equation, and the light bulb finally went on and that ability finally clicked and pretty much stayed at that point--almost a decade after I got out of High School. Some of the other skills for math and logic didn't click until after I'd computerized in 1984 and had started working with batch files and programing languages and had to master breaking a problem down into strict step-by-step progressions or the computer would barf. As the years have gone buy, I've discovered that what one teacher thought my Senior year of HS might be indications of just dyslexia and being inumerate, is actually more generalized problem with my Input/Output buffers and effects more than reading and maths. When I start getting very tired, I start decompensating and the problems show more and more. Usually they show more these days in verbal skills since I start shifting the compensation to written material since so much of my time is spent dealing with email and various types of writing. I start stuttering, and it gets worse the more exhausted I am, or under stress. Under bad enough stress {snake in bedroom}, I sound like Claudius from *I, Claudius*. And it can show in other ways. When McDonalds put in a new system in the kitchen, our manager decided to have the introductory training on Friday morning and rotate everyone through the workstation on the new system about every 15 minutes in the middle of main lunch. I was able to hang in until about the third workstation, and finally overloaded and just stood there shaking like a leaf and pretty close to aphasic. Pat in North Carolina -- * Patricia A. Swan <*> zafaran at dnet.net Ebay ID: zafaranswan * * Six Swans Design http://members.fortunecity.com/zafaran * --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Mon May 19 00:58:05 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:58:05 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) In-Reply-To: <3EC81A2B.7040307@worldpath.net> Message-ID: > >>What I find unforgiveable about Tien is not the risks he took, > >>nor even so much the lies he told. It's the damage he > >>did to those closest to him. > > > > Ahh, you mean like Miles did with Bothari, Elena, Mark etc > > > > Bothari - Killed due to Miles meddling. > > Bothari killed HIMSELF due to not being able to handle his guilt. Miles > brought it to the surface, but let's place some responsibility where it > belongs. And yes, Bothari was manipulated todoing evil things under Serg. No Bothari chose to accept death rather than deal with losing his dream. Miles engineered the meeting, Miles did the investigation to find out who she was and Miles was the one who rather than take a holiday with his grandmother led his friends and family into a war zone for which they were effectivly completly unprepared. > > Elena - Emotionally scarred to the point where she cannot bear > > to remember her father no return to her home world. > > Don't you think she might LIKE the liberating climate of anywhere BUT > Barayar? Liking one place does not mean hating another. Elena is emotionally scarred enough that she HATES her home world. She doesn't simply prefer another place, or dislike the way women are treated, she HATES the thought of the place, the concept of it being her home. All because Miles wanted to asuage his curiosity. Curiosity may not kill the cat but it certainly caused a lot of pain and suffering for a lot of people. In fact the only difference between Miles and Tien is perception of the viewer and scale of the damage. Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From kknolte at ecity.net Sun May 18 19:01:37 2003 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 19:01:37 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Ambitions References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516221324.01f59998@pop.luna.co.uk> <20030516215156.GB4703@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <3EC7CA7D.6C54@ecity.net> Scott Raun wrote: > > > > > Worse: Aral Jr.'s Father. > > > > Think about it... > > I don't think either of those are worse - in both cases, he's being > remembered for something _he_ did. He didn't do ANYTHING to become > Aral's son - but marrying Ekaterin was an conscious action of his, as > was having children. Interesting. I took the "think about it" instruction in a totally different direction. ie - Piotr - really impressive guy to Barrayarans, but probably no one outside Barrayar knows or cares about him with the exception of galactic scholars specializing in recent Barrayaran history and maybe dressage circles. Aral - famous to Barrayarans, again, but also fairly famous to outside galactics, if only as a military genius and Butcher of Komarr. Miles - well, to beat Aral he's going to have to be famous to Barrayarans, and even more famous than his dad to galactics (I don't think he's quite there yet, assuming there aren't so many Butcher of Komarr stories out there that the usual reaction is a shrug and "which one is that, again?") So........how would Aral Jr. beat that escalating series of reputations to the point where Miles is famous mostly as being Aral Jr's dad? The Nexus doesn't really seem to be set up for a Aralian Jihad and eruption of a new religion founded by the prophet Aral Jr. LMB also doesn't seem particularly interested, for a Baen writer, in coming up with an alien invasion to be resisted by all humans together. Which might leave Godwin's Law type atrocities or mistakes as something that make a big impression on galactics, given that it's usually easier to become notorious for evil than good. Karen --------________--------________-------- From cgwyn at w-link.net Mon May 19 01:19:46 2003 From: cgwyn at w-link.net (Christopher Gwyn) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 17:19:46 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: References: <200305180729.h4I7T5r5009517@lists.herald.co.uk> <3EC751B5.3060905@gci.net> Message-ID: <3EC82322.60AF7671@w-link.net> Peter Newman wrote: {snip} > What benefit did he receive from studying things that he > forgot within a year of graduating? Who knows? But it is as hard to prove a lack of benefit as it is to prove a benefit. > Perhaps he learned that he could do them but wouldn't his > time, and that of his instructors, have been better spent > at something else, something he'd actually use in his > adult life? The confidence value of learning that "he could do them" is a strong argument in favour of being exposed to a particular learning. > Suppose he'd spent that time on learning how > to make sure that his publisher was accurately calculating > and paying his royalties, or the history of the bronze age, > or the like? ;) They aren't mutually exclusive studies. > The question isn't 'Did it have any value?' the question > is 'Would something else have had more value?' 'Did it have any value?' is a more basic question than 'Would something else have had more value?'. Since you are jumping to a secondary question I'm inclined to assume that you accept my basic point - that it did indeed have value - otherwise the question 'Would something else have had more value?' is pointless because of course 'something that has value' would be of more value than 'something that has no value'. > Unless a persons knowledge in an area _directly_ affects > others (as knowledge of their system of government might > for people living in a democracy) than shouldn't they, or > their parents or guardians at least, have more say in it? Uh... Humans are social creatures - we are only really sane and effective when we are working in groups. Any persons knowledge _always_ affects others. Therefore by the standards articulated above the community should _always_ have some sort of say in how various people are educated. Regardless of how legitimate anyone's influence is on someone's education I would not support influences that _limit_ a persons choices beyond whatever their innate capacities allow. > If all the time Steve spent in his high school math > classes was a waste maybe it would have been better > for him to have skipped them all, graduated a semester > earlier, and gone on to something else? {snip} If it was a waste - perhaps so. But we have only one persons perceptions of the situation, and while those perceptions are probably both heart-felt and well-analysed it is only one persons subjective impression. It would take a lot of research before I would be willing to concede that not exposing someone to an important area of human endeavour was sometimes better than exposing them to it. > -- > Did you ever wonder if Lassie had Munchausen by Proxy? > Timmy sure seemed to fall down a lot of wells. 'Rhapsodies' is a really great comic strip. I wish it was available on the web. cheers, Christopher -- Christopher Gwyn cgwyn at w-link.net http://members.w-link.net/~cgwyn/index.htm --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Fri May 16 14:46:31 2003 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:46:31 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2373 - 19 msgs References: <85FFB5A0-866B-11D7-A29E-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> <00a401c31b7e$a62be670$3201a8c0@mbaxis> <20030516075241.GA9123@ofb.net> Message-ID: <003c01c31bb1$a7c73ec0$3201a8c0@mbaxis> On Friday, May 16, 2003 3:52 AM, Damien Sullivan wrote: > On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 03:42:05AM -0400, Michael > Bauminger wrote: > > > without serious consequences. There will probably be > > some denigration in some of the services the city > > provides, but I > > Perhaps 'degradation' instead of 'denigration'? I think > you're the one denigrating them. :) That's the word I was looking for! Sorry. Too little sleep, too many hours in front of the computer. Thanks for that one, Damien. > > project that it will be almost unnoticeable to the > > average resident. If my projections hold true, then those > > 13,000 city employees will have been a waste of > > money for years. > > Mmm. If NYC had services for the handicapped (some > cities have special minibuses for the very immobile), or > for rape victims, loss of those services would not be > noticed by the average resident. Would they be a waste > of money? But NYC does have minibuses for the handicapped, and they are a scandal! Poor handicapped people being taken on rides for hours through several boroughs! Higher cost per ride (to the city) than similar programs in any city in the country! This was front page news not very long ago. Setting scandals aside, a serious answer to your question is that of course those services are not a waste of money. They are also the kind of thing that would never get completely cut in this city. There is no way the city will cut any of the Access-a-Ride service, although they might overhaul the whole program. (I think it might be a federally mandated program and therefor not cuttable, in any case.) As for rape victims, the city might cut the number of people involved in providing services to them but it would never stop providing the services. -- Michael --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Mon May 19 01:48:04 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 17:48:04 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling OT: Message-ID: "Meg Justus" writes: Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 15:56:44 -0700 [LMB] Steve's Trolling OT: Hi, Meg and all! >I would have thought, until about ten years ago, that it was a waste in my case, too. The only D I ever got in high school was in geometry, and I thought I hated math. But then I was taught to quilt, and, boy, am I glad that some of that geometry stuck. I use it on a weekly basis these days. Who'd a thunk it. who does wish someone had pushed her to take physics, too< You and Mary are right that you never know what will prove useful later and that the very unusual individual knows what s/he will do later in life. Which is why I think options are good. I took German because I was good at languages and s*cked at math. Bad math skills kept me from some future paths that I might have liked to take and been good at. But I think that if you aren't *ready* to cooperate, no amount of pushing is going to *make* you more interested or capable than you are ready to be at that time. Under the German system that I was familiar with, the child really was prevented, except in unusual circumstances, from switching tracks. That inflexibility seemed hard to me, because, interests and goals *do* change as you mature. (Heck, I wanted to be a horse when I was 7. That changed, too!) And there were no *returning* students that I saw at the university in Bochum - as opposed to here, even when I was in undergraduate school, where classes had a lot of *older* adults (to me then, anyone over 30 was "older" ) who had returned to school to take up a course of study or switch careers. We do have the option here (common in Canada, too?) to make those changes any time we want to. If a student isn't ready for the options open to hir, then s/he isn't necessarily going to take advantage of them, until s/he's good and ready. Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --------________--------________-------- From WaWenri at aol.com Mon May 19 01:57:53 2003 From: WaWenri at aol.com (WaWenri at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 20:57:53 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Imperfections (was freedom and nudity) Message-ID: Marna Nightingal writes: > From: WaWenri at aol.com > > >He is a person who wrote about virtue (he was in favor of it) and had a > >failing, in his case gambling. > > > >Is a smoker who crusades against dunk driving, necessarily wrong about the > >drunk driving? > > Well, this smoker thinks not. Though it might impair their credibility if > they were caught smoking during an interview, especially if they objected > not only to DWI but to Drink in general. > > As I said before, the problem as I see it is not so much whether or not one > is right, but whether or not one understands what the particular Career > Limiting Moves of one's chosen profession are. > > Yes, that's an acronym in Ottawa: CLM. Figures. To bring this discussion back to LMB (with a twist). Since we are all imperfect and great things are done anyway. It follows they where done by imperfect people. The phrase, "don't shoot the messenger," means, the messenger is not responsible for bad news. The messenger is also not responsible for good news. Many evil people have had some non-evil part of their lives. Hitler was a vegetarian nonsmoker. The fact that he was evil has no bearing on vegetarianism or smoking. One of Niven's laws states: "There is no idea so good that you can't find at least one dammed-fool that believes it. Many mostly good people have had some evil part of their lives. I greatly admire Martin Luther, but he was an anti-Semite. I admire Martin Luther King, but he fooled around with women. Truth can be told by an idiot. Or as Miles would say, "Out of the mouths of Ivans..." Bill Wenrich --------________--------________-------- From gerria2000 at yahoo.com Mon May 19 02:07:59 2003 From: gerria2000 at yahoo.com (Gerri Alexander) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 18:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling ot In-Reply-To: <200305170912.h4H9CEr5000840@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030519010759.60058.qmail@web9904.mail.yahoo.com> "From: Katrina Knight said: I don't know, but I suspect that homeschooled kids start reading at an earlier average age simply because they're getting more parental attention and support in their learning." This was addressed in a book by Raymond and Dorothy Moore (notable gurus of the homeschooling movement) in their book "Better Late than Early". They thought there were certain areas of physical development that children needed to have achieved before they would be able to learn to read very easily. That children could be forced to learn earlier, but with great difficulty, but if you waited until they were fully capable it came more easily. Especially with boys, and more active kids. The difference would be that if you waited and did other things in the meantime, they didn't feel like failures, but if you force them before they are ready they just want to get away from an obnoxious task. Gerri Alexander --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --------________--------________-------- From ndrosen at erols.com Mon May 19 02:15:54 2003 From: ndrosen at erols.com (Nicholas Rosen) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:15:54 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lynette on taxes OT: Message-ID: <01b801c31da4$aaf60dc0$093e2c42@oemcomputer> James Reynolds wrote: Here he quotes me: > > If people want to visit national parks, couldn't businesses > > or non-profit entities run them off fees? > > (Snip) > Oh, great idea! I can't wait to read the announcement that > BigParkCorp. has made a 'strategic aliance' with Clearcut Forestry LLC > to to log out some of those 'unnecessary woods'. The thought of Disney > running Yellowstone Park... Yes, that could be a problem. On the other hand, there can be problems with government management. I remember from when I was living in Austin, Texas, there were demonstrations and civil disobedience against the Forest Service, which was cutting down mixed forests and replacing them with pine monoculture, and acting shocked, shocked that the pine plantations were proving vulnerable to the spread of blight. Then there's the Bureau of Land Manage- ment's grazing program; not only are public lands leased to ranchers at much less than market value, but you can only lease these lands for grazing. If you want to be a good environmentalist, pay for a lease, and not use it, but just let the grass and herbs go, and the stream banks recover from being trampled by cattle, that isn't allowed; the cowboy socialists have too much influence in Washington to let anyone else in on the grazing rights boondoggle. > > As to the FDA, I'd prefer that the share of > > my taxes that go to it were used to hire people to dig ditches > > and then fill them again; that wouldn't be an active threat to > > public health and safety, which the FDA is; its delays in letting > > drugs become available have killed people by the tens of > > thousands, > > (Snip) > > Oh? What drugs are these? Beta blockers, to take one notorious example. The FDA kept them from being used in America for ten years after they had become available in Europe, at a cost of 6,000 to 10,000 American lives per year. You could do a little searching, and find articles about other cases of FDA delays and prohibitions, and then there are cases you could never hear of, because they don't get as far as the FDA, let alone the newspapers. Some pharmaceutical company executive just decides that a substance being investigated for possible medical use might help a few thousand people, but the market could never repay the $400 million or so it would take to get FDA approval, so forget about it. > What about the FDA's role in preventing > quackery (Anyone here remember Laetrile?) and forcing the pharmacology > industry to prove that their products are safe (at least for the > majority of patients) , rather than letting drugs on the market because > we gotta keep the Wall Streeters happy? I remember Laetrile. I remember that some people said it had saved their lives. They may have been mistaken, but perhaps not. And just remember that if we had more medical freedom, those greedheads on Wall Street would be free to make and sell drugs which currently are not approved, but have no power to make you take them. The choice would be yours. > The FDA was founded to protect the public from fraud and trickery. Unfortunately, its activities have gone far beyond that, partly by act of Congress, partly by bureaucratic empire-building. If I offer snake oil for sale clearly labeled, "Snake Oil. May be hazardous to your health (see attached data sheet for toxicity information). Not proven to the FDA's satisfaction to be of any benefit to anyone for anything, but reported to have cured cases of cancer, bubonic plague, and athlete's foot. Refer to sheaf of personal testimonials and articles from the _New England Journal of Medicine_. Decide for yourself," I would not (let us suppose) be committing fraud or trickery, but I would be likely to get in trouble with the FDA. > It > -must- err on the far side of caution. Unless, of course, you and your > family don't mind the role of guinea pig. Caveat emptor, and all that. Being cautious can be dangerous. If I cautiously choose not to take an experimental medication, I may die of a disease which that medication could have cured. If I do take it, I may be poisoned by the medication. Who should decide which risk I should undergo, I or the FDA? Whose life is at stake? Regards, Nicholas Rosen --------________--------________-------- From dhbenton at worldnet.att.net Mon May 19 02:39:07 2003 From: dhbenton at worldnet.att.net (Dawn Benton) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:39:07 -0400 Subject: OT: healthcare was Re: [LMB] Re: OT: An aside on "selfishness" References: <20030517150106.X14446-100000@shell.rawbw.com> <3EC6B9C7.8AB31727@microd.com> Message-ID: <00a701c31da7$710c95e0$98e05b0c@primepc> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Macdonald" > Here ia a simple question: > > Who do you want to control the spending on your healthcare: > A. Yourself. > B. Your HMO > C. Congress > The only problem with posing the question in this format, is that now my choice is B, by default. I simply do not have the money in the bank to pay for any extensive health care if I should need it, and therefore I rely upon my HMO which has already made its choice. Dawn --------________--------________-------- From dhbenton at worldnet.att.net Mon May 19 02:47:26 2003 From: dhbenton at worldnet.att.net (Dawn Benton) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:47:26 -0400 Subject: OT: FDA was Re: Subject: [LMB] Lynette on taxes OT: References: Message-ID: <00b401c31da8$9ad57ee0$98e05b0c@primepc> Nicholas Rosen wrote: > > As to the FDA, I'd prefer that the share of > > my taxes that go to it were used to hire people to dig ditches > > and then fill them again; that wouldn't be an active threat to > > public health and safety, which the FDA is; its delays in letting > > drugs become available have killed people by the tens of > > thousands, > From: "James Reynolds" > (Snip) > > Oh? What drugs are these? What about the FDA's role in preventing > quackery (Anyone here remember Laetrile?) and forcing the pharmacology > industry to prove that their products are safe (at least for the > majority of patients) , rather than letting drugs on the market because > we gotta keep the Wall Streeters happy? > > The FDA was founded to protect the public from fraud and trickery. It > -must- err on the far side of caution. Unless, of course, you and your > family don't mind the role of guinea pig. Caveat emptor, and all that. > > *** Jim Reynolds I'm afraid that I have to agree with Jim on this one. I work for a pharmaceutical company, and I know that we do not one bit more than is required by the FDA to insure the safety of our products. Plus, we are only a contract manufacturer, we don't do our own R and D. Just imagine the pressure to get all those new drugs through the pipeline to justify your R and D costs. If the FDA (or someone) didn't insist upon rigorous clinical testing for new drugs, the cost in human misery could be much higher. That being said, if I have a really terrible condition, I might be willing to settle for worse side effects and/or possibilities of death due to such than would a person not suffering from my illness if the new drug allowed me to live my life more fully. I don't know exactly how you could work out the correct response in such a case. Dawn --------________--------________-------- From jwreynold at earthlink.net Mon May 19 02:43:53 2003 From: jwreynold at earthlink.net (James Reynolds) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:43:53 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Pizza time In-Reply-To: <200305180729.h4I7T5r5009517@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <58E146B8-899B-11D7-89D4-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> Yah, that sounds good. *** Jim Reynolds --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Mon May 19 05:23:10 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 00:23:10 -0400 Subject: [LMB] liable to learn? ot: References: <1cd.9c17db9.2bf849cc@aol.com> Message-ID: <052001c31dbe$7936c490$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: > Paula L: > > > >>And by that age, they ain't liable to larn how, > > >> nohow. > > > > >That's not true.... Charlemagne was far into adulthood when he learned to > > >read and write. > > Well, that's certainly a more interesting anecdote than the > one about Grandma Moses learning to paint at age 90, > or whatever. I don't know that either indicates the l > degree of likelihood of later-life learning. > > Perhaps this is a dialectical disagreement? I invoke > the yokel construction "ain't liable to" meaning that the > likelihood is slim -- say, less than one chance in ten. But, until you specified that that was the intent behind you use of that construction.... > If Paula, or others, infer instead "ain't liable to" means > "can never" or "less than a chance in a thousand" > then we might actually be in agreement on some > intermediate probability. To some degree there's a motivational dimension -- I have a cousin who was majorly academically learning disabled, and the only reason he learned to read, was that he wanted to drive trucks and heavy equipment. Getting the license for that, required first getting regular driver's license. To get a regular driver's license, required first getting a learner's permit. To get a learner's permit, required passing a written test. To pass the written test, he needed to be able to read and understand not just the test, but the booklet with the information that the test tested. Therefore, he had an enormous motivation to learn to read. It was extremely difficult for him, but he did it, because it was an absolute requirement, if he were ever going to drive big truck. If someone doesn't in public school have a motivation for reading, why are they going to bother, while in public school? I mentioned Charlemagne, because there are people who do learn to read and write later in life, that it's -not- too late if the schools fail, or the students don't have the motivation/interest/attention to learn to read in the public school system regime [how anybody can learn much of anything academic in classrooms full of warehoused bullies and Luddites, and disinterested students, who disrupt the class for everyone else, is beyond me... and it's not a matter really of class size, it's a matter of disruptive or academically anti-inclined students, suck all the learning energy away from anyone else... but the classrooms have anti-students required to be in them, so.... ] Another anecdote -- a friend today was telling a story that involved her sister, who was an Air Force officer. She said that her sister had a goal of trying to motivate and help those of the troops she was in authority over, who weren't the top of the line types, who were the lower quality types, and effect changes so that they would/could improve and make a lot more of themselves. On the other side was a senior sergeant, who wanted to flush out the deadwood quickly, and was not as interested in spending large amounts of time and effort on people he saw as weren't ever going to cut the mustard types. Years later, my friend said she got into a conversation with a woman at an LACon, who said that she had been in the Air Force, and that that encouragement and support and motivitation that an officer had had, had made a huge different in the woman's life later -- that what the officer had said, has given her enough belief in herself and willingness to improve that she'd applied herself and turned her life around. My friend asked if the officer was Captain xxxxxx, and the person said yes. My friend said she later talked to her sister and mentioned, using the woman's name, and her sister was utterly amazed, because the woman had been one of the least prepossessing types for such a turnaround that she'd run into! Anyway, what I meant by the above paragraph, is that sometimes people mature a -lot- later than childhood, to buckle down and study. People -can- learn to read as adults, what horrifies me is that the culture doesn't provide the support for later learners, that it gives to children..... adult education is important, but where's the attention and reachout for adult reading programs? --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Mon May 19 06:00:55 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 01:00:55 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) References: <3EC81A2B.7040307@worldpath.net> Message-ID: <05cc01c31dc3$a3942890$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Stewart" > Mandos wrote: > >>What I find unforgiveable about Tien is not the risks he took, nor even so > >>much the lies he told. It's the damage he did to those closest to him. > > > > Ahh, you mean like Miles did with Bothari, Elena, Mark etc > > > > Bothari - Killed due to Miles meddling. > > Bothari killed HIMSELF due to not being able to handle his guilt. Miles > brought it to the surface, but let's place some responsibility where it > belongs. And yes, Bothari was manipulated todoing evil things under Serg. > Bothari was given the responsibility of Miles-minding, and was Miles' "-own personal psychopath-". > > Elena - Emotionally scarred to the point where she cannot bear to remember > > her father no return to her home world. > > Don't you think she might LIKE the liberating climate of anywhere BUT > Barayar? Elena was stultified on Barrayar. On Barrayar she couldn't be in command of anything, on Barrayar she was motherless and after Bothari's death, an orphan.... she didn't -belong- and Barrayar, and going back to a place which said "you're female, therefore you are Not Allowed...." was anathema to her. In the Dendarii Mercenaries she found a mate, and a place where she could be everything Barrayar refused to allow her to be. Ergo.... > Bill, bored boy in NH --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Mon May 19 06:04:25 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 01:04:25 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Ambitions References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516221324.01f59998@pop.luna.co.uk> <20030516215156.GB4703@fireopal.org> <3EC7CA7D.6C54@ecity.net> Message-ID: <05db01c31dc4$1eadad80$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "K Kuhn" > Scott Raun wrote: > > > > So........how would Aral Jr. beat that escalating series of reputations > to the point where Miles is famous mostly as being Aral Jr's dad? The One option would be to go into something very different than his father and grandfather. His -rich- uncle Mark is specializing is a quite different area. Hmmm, perhaps Aral Jr would like to go to Beta and become an Nexus-wide renowned actor.... --------________--------________-------- From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu Mon May 19 06:25:31 2003 From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (Andrew Lambdin-Abraham) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 00:25:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Ambitions In-Reply-To: <3EC7CA7D.6C54@ecity.net> Message-ID: <4EE16E26-89BA-11D7-B236-0003931203CC@mail.utexas.edu> On Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 01:01 PM, K Kuhn wrote: > So........how would Aral Jr. beat that escalating series of reputations > to the point where Miles is famous mostly as being Aral Jr's dad? The > Nexus doesn't really seem to be set up for a Aralian Jihad and eruption > of a new religion founded by the prophet Aral Jr. LMB also doesn't > seem > particularly interested, for a Baen writer, in coming up with an alien > invasion to be resisted by all humans together. Which might leave > Godwin's Law type atrocities or mistakes as something that make a big > impression on galactics, given that it's usually easier to become > notorious for evil than good. So we're looking for a role that Aral Alex can play which makes him more famous than his father, but not infamous (because that doesn't settle what we were trying to do to Miles). It needs to be on a Nexus wide scale, and non-military, because Aral and Miles have wrapped up anything smaller or military. How about something more political. Certainly on Barrayar it would be easy, by being a major Progressive Prime Minister or something. But that too is not enough to surpass Miles. How about diplomacy? While the identities of X, Y and Z are probably not common knowledge (I've been told, but forgotten), certainly such people as Tallyrand and Castlereagh were the talk of the World in their time. Perhaps Aral Alexander is the one who finally negotiates the formal Treaty of Peace and Alliance between the Barrayarans and Cetagandans, thus leading to a Nexus much nicer than the one we saw before. That would be worth being remembered for, and with Miles pushing from behind (doing work on both sides, but not getting credit for it), and with the legacy of Piotr and Aral to justify the man doing it, I think it could work. That would be quite a cool story, I think. Andrew --------________--------________-------- From otherlois at yahoo.com Mon May 19 06:35:35 2003 From: otherlois at yahoo.com (Lois Aleta Fundis) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 22:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Pizza time Message-ID: <20030519053535.58332.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> Ummmm... pizza! ===== Lois Fundis ("the other Lois") otherlois at yahoo.com visit my blog -- http://auntlowey.blogspot.com "I didn't vote for him." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Mon May 19 07:20:54 2003 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 23:20:54 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Useful education was: Steve's Trolling OT: In-Reply-To: <00c001c31d90$c271f450$84cf4b43@meg> References: <44.31482b54.2bf8513b@aol.com> <00c001c31d90$c271f450$84cf4b43@meg> Message-ID: <3EC877C6.8090702@lvhot.org> Meg Justus wrote: > Steve: >> -- in my case, it was a complete waste of time; I scraped by >> in secondary school math, and promptly forgot virtually >> everything beyond basic arithmetic within a year of graduating. >> I had neither interest, nor natural aptitude. > I would have thought, until about ten years ago, that it was a > waste in my case, too. The only D I ever got in high school > was in geometry, and I thought I hated math. > But then I was taught to quilt, and, boy, am I glad that some > of that geometry stuck. I use it on a weekly basis these days. > Who'd a thunk it. > You never know... > Megaera who does wish someone had pushed her to take physics, > too I have vestiges of most of my education...if not the actual information, the hows and whys, if not the actual what. Math below calculus I use with some frequency, light physics, various bits of the hard sciences and engineering. Most of the german and spanish is gone...or at least what I have left is either from the opera or native speakers. I think things would have worked out differently for me if I had *not* known what I wanted to do...study chemistry, go into an academic career. I don't regret what actually happened, I had a lot of fun in my personal "Lost Years" that I wouldn't have had if I'd either come to Muni sooner *or* gone into Civil Engineering (which is where I think I would have ended up if I'd been clueless when I arrived at Berkeley) I think I use more of the things I learned in my breadth classes than those from my core curriculum. Robert -- . . . (scientists) scrabbling to record the mere existence of species before they become extinct, it is like someone hurrying through a burning library desperately trying to jot down some of the titles of books that will never now be read. [Last Chance to See-Adams/Carwardine] --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Mon May 19 09:09:50 2003 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 03:09:50 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Fw: Premio Italia Message-ID: <002401c31dde$7f856660$0500000a@oemcomputer> Here's a nice thing, and quite unexpected... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anna Feruglio Dal Dan" To: "Lois McMaster Bujold" Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 2:35 AM Subject: Premio Italia > Did somebody tell you that _Komarr_ won the Premio Italia for > best foreign novel of the year? I was really happy. It's a small > award, because Italian fandom is small and has shrunk a lot over > the year, but it's still our equivalent of the Hugo. This is the > second time a book I did won it and I feel a glow of proprietary > pride - not so much because I feel deserving myself, but because > it's one of my babies. ... > > Anna F. Dal Dan --------________--------________-------- From maia.b at aon.at Mon May 19 09:29:08 2003 From: maia.b at aon.at (Maia) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 10:29:08 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) References: <3EC81A2B.7040307@worldpath.net> <05cc01c31dc3$a3942890$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <3EC895D4.1080505@aon.at> Paula Lieberman wrote: >-- Paula Lieberman >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bill Stewart" > > > > >>Mandos wrote: >> >> > > > >>Bothari killed HIMSELF due to not being able to handle his guilt. Miles >>brought it to the surface, but let's place some responsibility where it >>belongs. And yes, Bothari was manipulated todoing evil things under Serg. >> >> >> > >Bothari was given the responsibility of Miles-minding, and was Miles' "-own >personal psychopath-". > IMHO, it can't be argued that Miles didn't bring Bothari and Elena into a potentially lethally dangerous situation just because he wanted to amuse himself . The same applies to Arde and Jesek too, but in their cases it didn't notably worsen their prospects. Morever, Miles also risks and sacrifices Dandarii lives in order to extract Mark in MD and of course risks Vorberg's life and those of his troops in Memory. Examples of Miles purposefully acting without backup are too numerous to mention - "Cetaganda", "Komarr", "Diplomatic Immunity" all come to mind and doubtlessly there are more that I have forgotten. How Miles's refusal to take elementary precautions is different from Tien's? Of course, Miles is brilliant and lucky and I suspect that his being an adrenaline junky contributes, too. It seems to me that in many cases Miles acts this way just because he likes the risk (and responsibility). And IMHO the difference between Miles's scams and Tien's peculation is very, very fine. Tien also intended to pay the money back, IIRC, so "lie now, fix it later" fully applies. Of course, Miles probably wouldn't have used Imperial money that way - he is far too loyal and steepled in ideals of service. But anybody elses money wouldn't be safe from him ;). The main difference here is that Tien was inept and that he tried again and again despite consistent failures, which Miles wouldn't have done. The main difference between them, appart from ability, IMHO, is that Miles builds people up, while Tien tore them down and that Miles's goals often are unselfish. Of course, one might wonder what being successeful might have done to Tien's character and vice versa.... >> >> > >Elena was stultified on Barrayar. On Barrayar she couldn't be in command >of anything, on Barrayar she was motherless and after Bothari's death, an >orphan.... she didn't -belong- and Barrayar, and going back to a place which >said "you're female, therefore you are Not Allowed...." was anathema to her. > Well, IIRC Elena said in TVG already that she didn't really want to be a soldier. She was caught up in the whole Barrayaran adoration of the military and let Miles chose her occupation for her. It is only in Memory that she finally picked her own goals - and those wouldn't have been incompatible with life in Imperium, as on Komarr women can be merchant spacers. And of course, there is a lot of other things Elena could have been in the Imperium. She could have fought to change the things, frex. Somebody has to be first, after all, and with her connections she was well positioned to try. OTOH, she was so devastated by Bothari's ugly secret and even uglier consequences of its revelation that she just ran away. And IMHO, that was personally as wrong for her as it was for Gregor in a similar situation, except that there is nothing that could _force_ her back and make her really come to terms with Barrayar. >In the Dendarii Mercenaries she found a mate, and a place where she could be >everything Barrayar refused to allow her to be. Ergo.... > > > She didn't even try. She first allowed the Barrayaran prejudices to push her into the box, then allowed Miles to do the same. Whilst the box Miles offered her fit her better, it still wasn't the real thing. --------________--------________-------- From jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu Mon May 19 12:34:55 2003 From: jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu (Jason Bontrager) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 06:34:55 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Imperfections (was freedom and nudity) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EC8C15F.2070707@mail.utexas.edu> WaWenri at aol.com wrote: > I admire Martin Luther King, > but he fooled around with women. All the more reason to admire him!:-) Jason B. --------________--------________-------- From pnewman at gci.net Mon May 19 14:41:28 2003 From: pnewman at gci.net (Peter Newman) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 05:41:28 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Re: Education OT: References: <200305182328.h4INSSr5012308@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EC8DF08.2020900@gci.net> Jason Bontrager wrote > Peter Newman wrote: >> Perhaps he learned that he could do them but wouldn't his >> time, and that of his instructors, have been better spent >> at something else, something he'd actually use in his >> adult life? > The problem with this is that it's virtually impossible to know in > advance how useful the knoweldge would or would not have been. He > couldn't know the higher maths would be useless (for him) until he > tried to learn them. It is not relevant if Steve's assertion that the he gained no permanent knowledge from these courses is correct or not [1], what is relevant is that he, or his then parents or guardians, ought to have made this choice. If Steve makes the right choice about his education he benefits, it Steve makes the wrong choice about his education he suffers. The effect on everyone else is much less dramatic. Additionally Steve, and his then parental units assuming they weren't quite bad at parenting, knows himself better than we do. Therefore Steve, or his then parental units, ought to make those choices. YMMV. [1] Since he is not yet dead he may derive some future benefit from them but, again, this benefit is much more important to him than to others and he might also derive future benefits from whatever else he chose to do with that time. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Mon May 19 16:58:12 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:58:12 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Aral II Message-ID: <93.2e30d439.2bfa5914@aol.com> Maybe by discovering something like cheap and easy faster-than-light communications or a cure for something, or whatever scientific principle is currently considered "unsolvable". Galileo is known by more people than Wallenstein. (Can you tell I've been reading 1632?) Mary > So........how would Aral Jr. beat that escalating series of reputations > to the point where Miles is famous mostly as being Aral Jr's dad? The > Nexus doesn't really seem to be set up for a Aralian Jihad and eruption > of a new religion founded by the prophet Aral Jr. LMB also doesn't seem > particularly interested, for a Baen writer, in coming up with an alien > invasion to be resisted by all humans together. Which might leave > Godwin's Law type atrocities or mistakes as something that make a big > impression on galactics, given that it's usually easier to become > notorious for evil than good. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Mon May 19 17:06:43 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:06:43 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: FDA Message-ID: <33.38d421ea.2bfa5b13@aol.com> Nicholas Rosen writes: > Being cautious can be dangerous. If I cautiously choose not > to take an experimental medication, I may die of a disease > which that medication could have cured. If I do take it, I may > be poisoned by the medication. Who should decide which > risk I should undergo, I or the FDA? Whose life is at stake? How about thalidomide? Are you really sorry your mother was prevented from taking this anti-nausea drug? Mary --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Mon May 19 17:27:10 2003 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:27:10 -0500 Subject: adult literacy volunteers, was [LMB] liable to learn? ot: Message-ID: <002d01c31e23$839d0420$0500000a@oemcomputer> Paula Lieberman paal at gis.net (snippity) "Anyway, what I meant by the above paragraph, is that sometimes people mature a -lot- later than childhood, to buckle down and study. People -can- learn to read as adults, what horrifies me is that the culture doesn't provide the support for later learners, that it gives to children..... adult education is important, but where's the attention and reachout for adult reading programs?" Here's a place where individuals -- like you guys -- *can* make a difference in other people's lives, instead of just talking about it. Many cities -- Minneapolis is one -- have adult literacy programs that train and use volunteer tutors. Pat Wrede has been in one -- she's had three or so students so far, including one fellow in his early 30's who somehow managed to slide through all of high school without ever learning to read (!), for whom she managed the breakthrough, another an older immigrant (with some harrowing tales to tell of escaping from Idi Amin's Uganda) who needed to improve her English for her job. I'll bet a few phone calls and a bit of research would turn up something similar in many of your very own neighborhoods. "The culture" *is* you. The support is whatever you make it be. Ta, L. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Mon May 19 17:36:10 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:36:10 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Elena Message-ID: <1c6.9e78fb8.2bfa61fa@aol.com> Paula Lieberman wrote: > She didn't even try. She first allowed the Barrayaran prejudices to push > her into the box, then allowed Miles to do the same. Whilst the box > Miles offered her fit her better, it still wasn't the real thing. No, she finally went back, burned an offering for Bothari, and made her peace with Barrayar in Mirror Dance. She also made her peace with her mother at some time or other, and visited her on Escobar. I don't think Miles pushed her into another box, I think he opened the lid for her. And she enjoyed being in the military until she decided to have a family. After all, she could take her daughter on a merchant ship with her, but not on a military ship. Mary --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Mon May 19 14:09:54 2003 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 14:09:54 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Fw: Premio Italia Message-ID: > From: Lois McMaster Bujold > Date: 19 May 2003 09:09 > > Here's a nice thing, and quite unexpected... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anna Feruglio Dal Dan" > > Did somebody tell you that _Komarr_ won the Premio Italia for > > best foreign novel of the year? I was really happy. It's a small > > award, because Italian fandom is small and has shrunk a lot over > > the year, but it's still our equivalent of the Hugo. This is the > > second time a book I did won it and I feel a glow of proprietary > > pride - not so much because I feel deserving myself, but because > > it's one of my babies. Congratulations, Lois. Congratulations, Anna FDD, my nominee for the LMB list translator of the year award. -- Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Mon May 19 18:03:30 2003 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:03:30 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: FDA References: <33.38d421ea.2bfa5b13@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EC90E62.109392AF@erols.com> CatMtn at aol.com wrote: > > How about thalidomide? Are you really sorry your mother was prevented from > taking this anti-nausea drug? My understanding is that Thalidomide was used as a tranquilizer, not an anti-nausea med. As has been pointed out many times, I think on this listserv, Thalidomide was not banned due to scientific diligence by the FDA, or even a personal crusade (jihad?) by a dedicated FDA worker, but by someone in the FDA who felt that pregnant women should not be taking tranquilizers, period. The teratrogenic effects were unknown when she made her recommendation. As someone who has worked with the FDA approval process, I can say that most of you would be appalled at how piss-poor the government oversight is. The data analysis, in particular, more bureaucratic than scientific. That having been said, an independent analysis of prescription drug safety and efficacy is important and useful. I just wish it was being done by someone other than government bureaucrats. Alex H. With apologies to all the talented, skilled, and useful government employees who may have accidentally been tarred by this brush. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Mon May 19 17:11:30 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:11:30 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling; math in Lois' work References: <44.31482b54.2bf8513b@aol.com> <3EC7139B.77FA50E@w-link.net> Message-ID: <06c301c31e2a$17081050$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Gwyn" > JoatSimeon at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/17/03 8:55:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > > lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com writes: > >> And someone who doesn't show any promise > >> as a mathematician would still be exposed to > >> math beyond basic arithmetic for two reasons: > > -- in my case, it was a complete waste of time; I scraped by in secondary > > school math, and promptly forgot virtually everything beyond basic arithmetic > > within a year of graduating. I had neither interest, nor natural aptitude. > > You may not have had interest or aptitude, but as long as > not displaying interest or aptitude isn't treated as some > sort of sign of overall inferiority you probably benefit > from being exposed to some trigonometry, calculus, geometry, > and so on. There are reasons that math's divided into "pure" and "applied" -- the latter looks as math as a tool for doing other things, and the former looks at math for its own sake. There tend to be some noticeable differences in attitudes and temperament between the people who do into one versus the other. Arthur C. Clarke caught some of it with some of his stories. I don't recall Lois having focuses on math, unlike e.g. welding technology, which was in the structure of Falling Free. Sometimes perhaps there's applied match that's organic to some of her stories, that is, when someone goes down in a gravity field and such, or, aha, Miles in the rigged-up-to-"kill"-the-student spacecraft near the end of Warrior's Apprentics -- well, that's more applied physics, but applies physics employs applied math, so.... --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Mon May 19 17:50:17 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:50:17 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling References: Message-ID: <06c401c31e2a$17e10b30$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "lorraine fletez-brant" > Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 06:11:39 -0700 > From: Christopher Gwyn:Re: > > >I would tend to agree - except, as you noted, for the age >> 10 part. I would want everyone 'educated in the basics of >> each path' so that when people want, or need, to switch >> paths they aren't having to start all over at the bottom... >> For example a kid might show a lot of promise as a {for >> example} mathematician, and be strongly encouraged to >> develop that promise, but still learn how to be a good >> machinist, chef, tailor, etc. And someone who doesn't show >> any promise as a mathematician would still be exposed to >> math beyond basic arithmetic for two reasons: one that he or >> she might actually have some talent in that direction (and Math's involved in a lot of stuff -- someone mentioned geometry applied to doing quilting, for example. It also applies to landscape planting. Math applies to feed and moving armies and supplies around, to planning trips, to designing structures, to figuring out how thick/thin piece parts need to be and what they have to be made out of for ladders, for determining how thick insulation needs to be in houses in different climates.... a lot of that may get broken down to formulas, e.g., the hypotenuse of a 45 degree triangle is 1.4 times the length of the two shorter sides, but it's still -math-. The math for spacecraft piloting in the Nexus for jump pilots, is something that most people never get near, but they know that it exists, and there are "it takes X time to get from A to B through wormhol C" sort of things. >> should not be denied the pleasure of developing it) and two, It's not necessarily "pleasure." A who loves math, and B who loves reading books like Silas Marner for English class, don't necessarily have "pleasure" in what the other has pleasure in. And for the matter, I was never an afficionado of linear algebra -- give it to COMPUTER to solve, it's turn-the-crank boring linear stuff! >> that this person will grow up to be a citizen and will need >> to have at least some exposure to 'the whole of >> civilization' in order to facilitate making informed >> decisions. Uh..... there is Too Much for "exposure to the whole of civilization." Decisions get made, intentionally and by default, on what one gets exposed to. Growing up in a plastics factory city, I learned about plastic: what injection molding machines looked like, what blow molding machines looked like, and what pink flamingo molds looked like -- but there were lots of things that people in e.g. New York City take for granted that "everyone knows" that I didn't know because I didn't grow up in New York City, to have that as "background" > Yes, of course, it only makes sense to have all students learn both the > basics - and what appeals to them. Clearly, studying literature is not the > only pathway to learning literary analysis (although it helps ), and > being exposed to the classics, mathematics (for all the good the math did me > ), and other disciplines is extremely important. > "Exposure" that instigates loathing and e.g. math blockage isn't useful, however. Traumatic "learning experiences" are worse that ignorance most of the time -- someone who's ignorant and of reasonable intelligence and dispostion, can -learn- later and overcome that ignorance if they get curious; someone with a blockage from traumatic learning experiences and frustration of Not Getting It, due to any or all of being ill when the teacher was teaching critical pieces and the teacher refusing to spend time to provide them, the teacher leaving that stuff -out-, being transferred to a different class such that that material. didn't get taught to them, being brainwashed into believing they couldn't do it [girls and math 25+ years ago], not being ready for the material, not being -interested- in the material, needing more time to learn it that allowed, not seeing the point i n it.... creates blockages that thereafter, when the person sees it or get reminded of it, they freeze, and run in the other direction. Hmm, I wonder if that was some of what went on with Tien, with his Denial. The attitude towards muties on Barrayar having been what it was in his youth, he was very much -blocked- about dealing with his genetic and its ramifications on his family, in addition to his personal set of bad habits and characteristics and attitude. > My disagreement is with the "one size fits all you must go to college to be > a success" push (and I have an undergraduate and graduate degrees, so I'm College first was something to aspire to, and then considered a gateway requirement. It's not -necessary-, but one of the things that happened is that when more than a certain percentages gets a certain certification, it's then seen as -mandatory- or nearly so. Most businesses use criteria to throw out most of the job applications they get, so that they only have to consider a few applications and not hundreds. So.... > not exactly opposed to the college track). I would like to see pride > restored in whatever position or job well done. We all know that > intuitively, but the blaring message is stay in school and go to college. If Part of that was the idea of removing some of the competition from the labor force by keeping people out of it until they're at least 18 -- no matter how bored and uninterested they are an unsuitable to being strapped into a chair in a classroom and lectured at five days a week six to eight hours a day, and expected to spend three hours or more each day with academic homework -- and the former in a setting where there's so little mixing of ages and talents and levels of experience, and so little "cooperative working." I took a glassmaking class a few weeks ago, and one of the things about it, is that making anything that gets to be more than fist sized, required a team and -teamwork- -- and that if not done properly, it's extremely DANGEROUS -- there's this 2200 degrees F furnace full of molten glass, reheating furnaces at 2300, and one is working with HOT glass at the end of metal rods, and the glass and the end of the rod with the glass on it, are GLOWING prettily, at a temperature higher than a crematorium uses to reduce bodies to ash! Most schools teach -comptetion -- that at * at #T%# "bell curve" and NOT cooperation. Sports SORT of teach teamwork, but for the sake, again, NOT of -achievement-, but of competition and "we're better than you are." Looking at Miles, when the instructors were trying to "kill" him off, the object of the "killing" was so that the students would Get It, all the different ways that what they were involved with, could be -lethal-, and to be conscious and aware of that, and NOT get killed for real, wasting Emperor Gregor's investment in them and failing the trust being places in them as future officers. The competitive aspect was as a result, regarding how many times someone did or didn't get killed -- but the object was to be taught to stay alive, not to be "the best" in what was not a formal competition! Schools, however, measure by "where did you stand in your class?" and "what grade did you get in the class" as substitutes for "how well have you mastered, if you have mastered, this material?" > someone less capable *wants* to go to college, that's different. Hard work > often beats out lazy brains in the long run. But I would like to see But what about Heinlein and "the man who was too lazy to fail"?!! > kids have options that don't feel like they are making a second-rate choice. > That's the problem with the "competition." It is SO much a hoax! It doesn't address life skills, motivations, drives, it's "Now you do -this- and now you do that" stuff, and doesn't show why most of the time things get done that way. It's "do as I tell you to and if you question it you're a troublemaker." > I also think the idea of making teachers' raises merit based by how many > passing students they have is a really lousy one. Grade inflation is going > to be very popular, for one, and how fair is that to teachers who are There's the issue of metrics, and how does one measure what? The "product" of school systems is supposed to be people trained at whatever level to go onto the next grade, or to college, or whatever. How does one measure that? The schools use tests, for lack of anything better, since school is fake, and figuring out meaningul metrics is hard. Also, the tests have to get changed, otherwise, "this is what's going to be on the test. Learn the answers" happens, and what gets "learned" isn't the -material- of understanding how to do things and how to think through things and what the Meaning of those stupid boring dross literature texts are, but "this is what the answer to this particular question asked by the teacher every year is." > willing to work with kids who need extra help? Or kids who simply don't care There are several people I know who are doing tutoring these days..... > and don't want to do the work? Those do exist, and even a really good > teacher can't reach everybody (I taught German and ESL for a number of years > before I jumped off the cliff into the legal waters). --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Mon May 19 17:52:22 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:52:22 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling OT: References: <44.31482b54.2bf8513b@aol.com> Message-ID: <06c501c31e2a$19b18570$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: > In a message dated 5/17/03 8:55:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com writes: > > > And someone who doesn't show > > any promise as a mathematician would still be exposed to > > math beyond basic arithmetic for two reasons: > > -- in my case, it was a complete waste of time; I scraped by in secondary Nonsense! If it were a complete waste of time you wouldn't be able to use it as an example of a complete waste of time for you. Instead, you get to use it as Example of Wastefulness.... > school math, and promptly forgot virtually everything beyond basic arithmetic > within a year of graduating. I had neither interest, nor natural aptitude. Have you used it in any of your writing yet, student forced to take classes that mean nothing to them..... ?? --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Mon May 19 18:35:38 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 10:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: [LMB] Steve's Trolling In-Reply-To: <06c401c31e2a$17e10b30$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <20030519103411.B61058-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Mon, 19 May 2003, Paula Lieberman wrote: > Math's involved in a lot of stuff -- someone mentioned geometry applied to > doing quilting, for example. A lot of math teaching is bad, however. I never did get the hang of doing formal proofs in geometry and almost failed it. However, I'm pretty good at pattern making for costuming, and then one day I realized that even though I believed I suck at geometry, I was actually doing really neat things with it. Something is wrong here. ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From michele_cox at sbcglobal.net Mon May 19 18:54:33 2003 From: michele_cox at sbcglobal.net (Michele Cox) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 10:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030519175433.14474.qmail@web80011.mail.yahoo.com> When we meet Miles, he's a teenager, with a teenager's flaws of lack of perspective, over-optimism, and the conviction that no one important can die. His *goals,* to the extent that he is aware of them, are both positive and other-centered; he wants to help. He may have a tendency to assume that everyone else would want or like what he would want or like, but that goes with lack of perspective and experience. Tien's goals are centered around Tien, even at the point we meet him in his adulthood (such as it is). The clearest sign of this is his refusal to obtain medical care for his son, which is based on his intense desire to avoid the negative social consequences to himself. Tien and Miles have both done damage; the motivations for that damage are different, and Miles clearly learns from his mistakes (however slowly). Can you see a way in which Tien's actions *could* have had life-expanding results for the people around him? I can't see having more money doing more for Ekaterin with Tien than giving her a larger cage, that needed more dusting. : ( Peace be! Michelewho hopes to high heaven that intentions count for *something...* Mandos wrote:> What I find unforgiveable about Tien is not the risks he took, nor even so > much the lies he told. It's the damage he did to those closest to him. Ahh, you mean like Miles did with Bothari, Elena, Mark etc --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Mon May 19 19:34:48 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 14:34:48 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) References: <3EC81A2B.7040307@worldpath.net> <05cc01c31dc3$a3942890$060d4b43@LAPTOP> <3EC895D4.1080505@aon.at> Message-ID: <06cd01c31e35$5487c5f0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maia" > Paula Lieberman wrote: > > >-- Paula Lieberman > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Bill Stewart" > > > >>Mandos wrote: > > > >>Bothari killed HIMSELF due to not being able to handle his guilt. Miles > >>brought it to the surface, but let's place some responsibility where it > >>belongs. And yes, Bothari was manipulated todoing evil things under Serg. > > > >Bothari was given the responsibility of Miles-minding, and was Miles' "-own > >personal psychopath-". > > IMHO, it can't be argued that Miles didn't bring Bothari and Elena into > a potentially lethally dangerous situation just because he wanted to > amuse himself . The same applies to Arde and Jesek too, but in their ??? IIRC Miles got involved with the situation with Arde in the first place because he wanted to/was trying to help out and defuse the situation. >From there, everything just snowballed -- and as other people have pointed out, he was 18. He was barely an adult, had just flunked the entry exam for the only career he wanted, was regarded as a suspicious mutant on his home planet, was being sent in utter disgrace to rusticate at Grandma's and try to find some -other- direction for his life.... > cases it didn't notably worsen their prospects. Morever, Miles also > risks and sacrifices Dandarii lives in order to extract Mark in MD and Miles had never had any siblings, and his closest relatives other than his father and mother, were Ivan and Gregor. Miles saw Mark as a brother to redeem, and as family. Furthermore, it could be argued that Mark was #3 in line for the Imperial throne, after Aral and Miles himself, in the event of Gregor's death without issue. Since the Dendarii were Gregor's, risking and sacrificing Dendarii lives for #3 Imperial Heir, was completely appropriate. > of course risks Vorberg's life and those of his troops in Memory. > Examples of Miles purposefully acting without backup are too numerous to > mention - "Cetaganda", "Komarr", "Diplomatic Immunity" all come to mind > and doubtlessly there are more that I have forgotten. How Miles's > refusal to take elementary precautions is different from Tien's? Of Motivation and goal and attitude make huge differences. Dead is dead, but someone dead of e.g. a disagreement over a pack of cigarettes (it happens. A scumsucker slimeball ex-neighbor killed someone over what began as a fight over a pack of cigarettes....) is very different than someone dead who was trying to rescue someone else. > course, Miles is brilliant and lucky and I suspect that his being an > adrenaline junky contributes, too. It seems to me that in many cases > Miles acts this way just because he likes the risk (and responsibility). > > And IMHO the difference between Miles's scams and Tien's peculation is > very, very fine. Tien also intended to pay the money back, IIRC, so > "lie now, fix it later" fully applies. Of course, Miles probably But, Tien a) was NOT 18, he was into his 30s or some such, and b) he had a track record of -not- paying back, and of continuing irregularities. Miles kept to his promises as much as possible -- he did pay the money back [worthless currency was a weasel, yet, BUT.... it was paying back....], he had Quin's face rebuilt, etc. etc. etc. He made his word good. Tien's promises made millipfennigs look like valuable hard currency..... and Miles kept with his schemes, all the way to their final outcomes, and paid off his debts. He hauled Bothari's body home to Barrayar as Bothari wished, though it would have been much simpler and less expensive to have not done so. Elena was a subject of his, legally his to give or withhold from marriage, from staying offplanet... he ceded his sovereignty over her regarding not coming back to Barrayar, and her choice to marry elsewhere than Miles. Would Tien have done any such things?! Would Tien have allowed someone who was his legal subject, to marry a Barrayaran deserter?! > wouldn't have used Imperial money that way - he is far too loyal and > steepled in ideals of service. But anybody elses money wouldn't be safe > from him ;). The main difference here is that Tien was inept and that he > tried again and again despite consistent failures, which Miles wouldn't > have done. > Motiviations and personal integrity are major differentiators -- Tien doesn't -have- any personal integrity. Miles has, it, and while he did a lot of weaseling, he -was- concerned with well-being of others and not needlessly inflicting harm, and he -tried- to make things rights. Tien was deluding himself, and not at all concerned about what was best for his wife and son. > The main difference between them, appart from ability, IMHO, is that > Miles builds people up, while Tien tore them down and that Miles's goals > often are unselfish. Of course, one might wonder what being successeful > might have done to Tien's character and vice versa.... > Those are -major- differences. > > > >Elena was stultified on Barrayar. On Barrayar she couldn't be in command > >of anything, on Barrayar she was motherless and after Bothari's death, an > >orphan.... she didn't -belong- and Barrayar, and going back to a place which > >said "you're female, therefore you are Not Allowed...." was anathema to her. > > Well, IIRC Elena said in TVG already that she didn't really want to be a That was a -lot- later. She was a different, older, more mature person, who'd been exposed to a lot more of the rest of humanity and the Nexus, than she had fresh out of backwards Barrayar, daughter of someone owned body and soul by the Vorkosigans and whose life was obligated to them.... Cordelia had done her best to give Elena a background in what the rest of the universe was liike, but Elena had grown up on Barrayar the daughter of Bothari, and just iddn't have the experience and maturity and background, to "know" what she wanted to be, when that was something not available on Barrayar.... > soldier. She was caught up in the whole Barrayaran adoration of the > military and let Miles chose her occupation for her. It is only in Miles again was 18 at the time, and she was also young and inexperienced. Neither of them were the people they would become later. > Memory that she finally picked her own goals - and those wouldn't have And once again, it was a much older, more experienced, more mature Elena, one who could NEVER have existed had she gone back to Barrayar.... people's lives do drive who they are and what they become and where they go later in life. > been incompatible with life in Imperium, as on Komarr women can be > merchant spacers. And of course, there is a lot of other things Elena At the time Elena went off to Beta with Miles and her father, that option did -not- really exist. Komarr had not been integrated into the Empire at that leve, for one thing. > could have been in the Imperium. She could have fought to change the > things, frex. Somebody has to be first, after all, and with her That was years -later- in a different time and climate, however. > connections she was well positioned to try. OTOH, she was so devastated > by Bothari's ugly secret and even uglier consequences of its revelation > that she just ran away. And IMHO, that was personally as wrong for her > as it was for Gregor in a similar situation, except that there is > nothing that could _force_ her back and make her really come to > terms with Barrayar. > Why should there have been?! > >In the Dendarii Mercenaries she found a mate, and a place where she could be > >everything Barrayar refused to allow her to be. Ergo.... > > She didn't even try. She first allowed the Barrayaran prejudices to push Why should she have had to try? She was barely adult, and what did Barrayar offer? Orphanhood? Being an adjunct to Cordelia? What did it have to offern -Elena-? Miles had his own life to live, his own path to find. Where was there any place for Elena, amongst the misogynist Barrayaran culture?! > her into the box, then allowed Miles to do the same. Whilst the box > Miles offered her fit her better, it still wasn't the real thing. Again, she had never grown up in the Nexus, and didn't have the background, to be able to search out a place there immediately, to discover who was Elena and where did she fit..... she was with the Dendarii long enough to -gain- that experience and knowledge, and in effect, "graduate" into full Nexus participation.... --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Mon May 19 19:38:48 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 14:38:48 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Elena References: <1c6.9e78fb8.2bfa61fa@aol.com> Message-ID: <06da01c31e35$e3dedf40$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: > Paula Lieberman wrote: > Er, I didn't; write that, it was Maia! I have quite a different view of the situation! > > She didn't even try. She first allowed the Barrayaran prejudices to push > > her into the box, then allowed Miles to do the same. Whilst the box > > Miles offered her fit her better, it still wasn't the real thing. > > No, she finally went back, burned an offering for Bothari, and made her peace > with Barrayar in Mirror Dance. She also made her peace with her mother at > some time or other, and visited her on Escobar. I don't think Miles pushed That happened relatively early on, though. Mirror Dance was quite a bit later, and Miles and Elena were both much older and much more mature and experienced, and knew who they were, by Mirror Dance. In Warrior's Apprentic they were newly hatched off of Barrayar, particularly Elena, and everything for her was new and different, and to be in a society were there was equal opportunity, unlike Barrayar.... > her into another box, I think he opened the lid for her. And she enjoyed Agreed. > being in the military until she decided to have a family. After all, she Yup. > could take her daughter on a merchant ship with her, but not on a military > ship. --------________--------________-------- From zafaran at sff.net Mon May 19 20:05:25 2003 From: zafaran at sff.net (Patricia A. Swan) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:05:25 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) In-Reply-To: <06cd01c31e35$5487c5f0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> References: <3EC81A2B.7040307@worldpath.net> <05cc01c31dc3$a3942890$060d4b43@LAPTOP> <3EC895D4.1080505@aon.at> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030519150218.03744a88@pop3.sff.net> At 02:34 PM 5/19/2003 -0400, Paula Lieberman wrote: >Motiviations and personal integrity are major differentiators -- Tien >doesn't -have- any personal integrity. Miles has, it, and while he >did a >lot of weaseling, he -was- concerned with well-being of others and not >needlessly inflicting harm, and he -tried- to make things >rights. Tien was >deluding himself, and not at all concerned about what was best for his >wife >and son. Tien is also, by List Diagnosis by the clinical guidelines, and the diagnosis confirmed by Lois, mentally ill. He has Borderline Personality Disorder. A classic textbook case, in fact. Pat in North Carolina -- * Patricia A. Swan <*> zafaran at dnet.net Ebay ID: zafaranswan * * Six Swans Design http://members.fortunecity.com/zafaran * --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Mon May 19 20:12:36 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:12:36 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: Education/Steve's Trolling OT: Message-ID: Peter Newman writes: >It is not relevant if Steve's assertion that the he gained no permanent knowledge from these courses is correct or not [1], what is relevant is that he, or his then parents or guardians, ought to have made this choice. If Steve makes the right choice about his education he benefits, it Steve makes the wrong choice about his education he suffers. The effect on everyone else is much less dramatic. Additionally Steve, and his then parental units assuming they weren't quite bad at parenting, knows himself better than we do. Therefore Steve, or his then parental units, ought to make those choices. YMMV.< Ahem....YMMVby-quite-a-bit! I have opined on this topic before, so I apologize to those who've heard it before. Peter, you are presupposing that you have children who CAN be led to water and WILL agree to drink the waters of education therefrom . I must take exception to your statement that "they weren't quite bad at parenting[.]" Parents and teachers who have children and students who behave, study hard, and do their work generally assume that it is their good parenting skills and/or good teaching methods. Having a brilliant 18-yr-old [our older one who is just graduating from high school], I can personally tell you that all the good parenting isn't worth a tinker's dam* if the child refuses to comply - which is why I earlier said that hard work is often more important than lazy brains. Kipper spent two and a half years having what I termed a "hiatus from his academic success." We had counseling [which he wouldn't cooperate with], meetings with teachers, his school counselors, tried punishment, even sunk to bribery - all to no avail. He is just now getting his driver's license at 18, because we tied driving to good grades. He got himself a bus pass. There was a real low point at which we needed to consider "tough love" techniques. We opted not to do that after much consideration [it obviously works well for some kids], deciding that it was better to keep him *alive,* off the streets, and at least in school, if not participating, until he had matured to the point where he realized that we were right about his mistakes. When he turned 17, he realized and regretted. But *he* had to go through that to reach the point where *he* wanted to study and do well. He was kept in the International Baccalaureate program, even though he wasn't allowed to test, because the teachers also believed that he'd come around. He did; he graduates this week, is friends with a number of his teachers, and is accepted into St. John's College for the fall. Bringing me back to point (it's *so* easy to distract me ) that Steve's parents may not have had as much input as you believe should happen. I'm sure it's MUCH easier to have obedient, compliant children who *want* to comply with the rules. Kipper is a rule breaker and often his own worst enemy, but he has to do things *his* way. even if it means failing for a while. Nonetheless, I wouldn't trade my difficult, brilliant, hyperactive, OCD teen for anything. And I think we've been good parents. Lorraine - who must put in her 2 millifenig's worth on behalf of parents with difficult or unusual kids everywhere! _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Mon May 19 20:36:50 2003 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:36:50 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Education/Steve's Trolling OT: References: Message-ID: <3EC93252.D8A40FA2@erols.com> lorraine fletez-brant wrote: > > Kipper spent two and a half years having what I termed a "hiatus from his > academic success." We had counseling [which he wouldn't cooperate with], > meetings with teachers, his school counselors, tried punishment, even sunk > to bribery - all to no avail. He is just now getting his driver's license at > 18, because we tied driving to good grades. He got himself a bus pass. There > was a real low point at which we needed to consider "tough love" techniques. > We opted not to do that after much consideration [it obviously works well > for some kids], deciding that it was better to keep him *alive,* off the > streets, and at least in school, if not participating, until he had matured > to the point where he realized that we were right about his mistakes. When > he turned 17, he realized and regretted. But *he* had to go through that to > reach the point where *he* wanted to study and do well. He was kept in the > International Baccalaureate program, even though he wasn't allowed to test, > because the teachers also believed that he'd come around. He did; he > graduates this week, is friends with a number of his teachers, and is > accepted into St. John's College for the fall. > Congratulations - Kipper got into college. Now all he has to do is: a) continue past his first semester b) succeed at life. Alex H. Wishing Kipper the best, but who can't believe that more people don't beat their children severely Parent: "But if we beat them, the state will take them away!" Alex: "And your point is?" --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Mon May 19 21:05:41 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:05:41 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling ot: In-Reply-To: <036601c31bf3$289bd510$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <20030519200541.86677.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Paula Lieberman a icrit : > > The prodigies get heard about, but what about those who aren't? What's the > average age I wonder, at which homeschooled kids learn to read? Well, that's one of the points of homeschooling--the "average" ceases to have any importance in a classroom of one. Anyway, I've been hearing about this "average 12-year-old" for a long time, and I have yet to meet the kid... Joy ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Mon May 19 21:17:51 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:17:51 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling OT: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030519201751.27383.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> --- lorraine fletez-brant a icrit : > I also think the idea of making teachers' raises merit based by how many > passing students they have is a really lousy one. Yeah, isn't that a nasty one? And on the outside it _looks_ so bright and shiny, hard-nosed and bottom-line oriented: make the teacher responsible for teaching, right? I might even go along with it if there were some way to make the parents responsible for parenting... Joy ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Mon May 19 21:27:51 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:27:51 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: In-Reply-To: <3EC7D085.20705@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <20030519202751.98527.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jason Bontrager a icrit : > Peter Newman wrote: > The problem with this is that it's virtually impossible to know in > advance how useful the knoweldge would or would not have been. He > couldn't know the higher maths would be useless (for him) until he > tried to learn them. "Higher" maths _are_ virtually useless to anyone not going into a technical field. I never went any higher than 2nd year algebra, and have never felt the loss. (Coulda done without that, too, really--the quadratic equation has never done me any particular good, even if I could remember how to solve one, or why I'd want to.) Joy ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Mon May 19 21:44:20 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:44:20 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: Education/Steve's Trolling OT: Message-ID: Alexandra Haropulos writes: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:36:50 -0400 >Congratulations - Kipper got into college. >Now all he has to do is: >a) continue past his first semester >b) succeed at life. Hoo boy, you've got that right! Today is the first day of the rest of your work >Wishing Kipper the best, but who can't believe that more people don't beat their children severely< Did I say we *never* spanked ? I don't believe in it; am adamantly against it - guess what, it was the ONLY thing that worked; and we tried everything! - however, it stops having any effect when the child is taller and heavier than you are! >Parent: "But if we beat them, the state will take them away!" >Alex: "And your point is?" Well, *beating,* yes, of course. A swat isn't going to get a child taken away - at least not in the Wild West. And the foster system or keeping the child as an icorrigible in a juvenile facility may be a horrible option, presupposing that the parents are good parents, of course. Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Mon May 19 22:10:12 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:10:12 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: In-Reply-To: <20030519202751.98527.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3EC7D085.20705@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <3EC901E4.4665.299DE38@localhost> Joyeuse wrote: > "Higher" maths _are_ virtually useless to anyone not going into a > technical field. May I ask why you chose to put quotes around the word "higher"? Horror quotes, perhaps? > I never went any higher than 2nd year algebra, and > have never felt the loss. And more's the pity. Tone-deaf people probably never feel the loss of Beethoven and Bach. Jim Parish, mathematician sitting at home sourly nursing a bruised toe --------________--------________-------- From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz Mon May 19 22:21:54 2003 From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 09:21:54 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: Education/Steve's Trolling OT: Message-ID: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F537029D2C31@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> Right, now we go for pizza, on this matter. I found beating rather counter-productive, to my education, at least. > -----Original Message----- > From: Alexandra Haropulos [mailto:aharo at erols.com] > Wishing Kipper the best, but who can't believe that more > people don't beat their children severely > > Parent: "But if we beat them, the state will take them away!" > Alex: "And your point is?" --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Mon May 19 22:37:11 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 14:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Literacy Tutoring In-Reply-To: <200305191836.h4JIaHr5016120@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: >"The culture" *is* you. The support is whatever you make it be. > Ta, L. Agreed absolutely. And if my experiences lately are any indication, you also never know when those volunteer experiences will open doors to you that you never expected to need to use. Susan in Seattle --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Mon May 19 22:39:21 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 14:39:21 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: AND Jim's toe Message-ID: jparish crankily write: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:10:12 -0500 >May I ask why you chose to put quotes around the word "higher"? Horror quotes, perhaps?< Heh. >Jim Parish, mathematician sitting at home sourly nursing a bruised toe< Ouch! What did you do? Kick a recalcitrant student ? Now, THAT might be an incentive [NOT] You never answered my earlier question : do you think that students (not JUST me) who either did not learn math or who didn't appear to have the capability *can* learn math if it is properly taught? Whether in elementary or returning and starting from scratch as an adult? Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper with socket wrench on that side of the brain _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Mon May 19 23:10:01 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:10:01 -0700 Subject: OT: FDA was Re: Subject: [LMB] Lynette on taxes OT: In-Reply-To: <00b401c31da8$9ad57ee0$98e05b0c@primepc> References: <00b401c31da8$9ad57ee0$98e05b0c@primepc> Message-ID: <20030519221001.GA24189@ofb.net> On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 09:47:26PM -0400, Dawn Benton wrote: > to live my life more fully. I don't know exactly how you could work out the > correct response in such a case. Certify instead of license. Drugs could pass FDA review and be certified as safe, or not, allowing cautious people to play it safe and desperate or risky people to take risks on new treatments. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From rmacdonald at microd.com Mon May 19 23:14:48 2003 From: rmacdonald at microd.com (Richard Macdonald) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 18:14:48 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Ambitions References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516221324.01f59998@pop.luna.co.uk> <20030516215156.GB4703@fireopal.org> <3EC7CA7D.6C54@ecity.net> <05db01c31dc4$1eadad80$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <3EC95758.A1F90F3@microd.com> Paula Lieberman wrote: > > -- Paula Lieberman > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "K Kuhn" > > > Scott Raun wrote: > > > > > > > So........how would Aral Jr. beat that escalating series of reputations > > to the point where Miles is famous mostly as being Aral Jr's dad? The > > One option would be to go into something very different than his father and > grandfather. His -rich- uncle Mark is specializing is a quite different > area. Hmmm, perhaps Aral Jr would like to go to Beta and become an > Nexus-wide renowned actor.... I'm just wondering why everyone is ignoring the other child, is it because of her gender? Let's see, what's the worst thing you can do to .... Helen the Great Helen of Barrayar Empress Helen the thoughts are endless. Can you imagine Miles going down in history as Helen's Father. -- Richard A. Macdonald. CPA/EA SSG (Ret), USA, ADA 16P34 Dedicated follower of Fr Luca Paccioli, Master Juggler. Delenda est Carthago -- Cato the Elder --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Mon May 19 23:37:08 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 18:37:08 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) References: <20030519175433.14474.qmail@web80011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <070e01c31e57$2f519690$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Also, Miles sincerely regrets the mistakes he's made and the results of them. He feels remorse and that he has to atone. Tien doesn't. -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michele Cox" > .... Tien and Miles have both done damage; the motivations > for that damage are different, and Miles clearly learns from > his mistakes (however slowly). > > --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Tue May 20 00:00:15 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:00:15 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) In-Reply-To: <070e01c31e57$2f519690$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: > > .... Tien and Miles have both done damage; the motivations > > for that damage are different, and Miles clearly learns from > > his mistakes (however slowly). > Also, Miles sincerely regrets the mistakes he's made and the results of > them. He feels remorse and that he has to atone. Tien doesn't. We only know about Miles regrets because we view most of the stories from inside his head. We cannot reasonbly judge what Tien may or may not have regretted unless we have the same luxury. You are judging Tien on a life related through the eyes of someone he hurt and the actions of a few weeks. What kind of image would I get of you for example if I saw only the perceptions of someone who didn't like you combines with your actions during a week of extreme stress in your life. It is highly unlikely to provide a balanced view of you as a person. The classic example is when Tien tries to turn Imperial Witness. We only have Miles internal monologue to tell us that he was doing it to save his own hide. What if Tien really did want to come clean and try to fix things, it was simply Miles who disbelieved his motives. Maybe the night before he looked at the mess he was in, became disgusted with his own actions and the mess his life had become, spurred on by Ekaterins outbursts he thought he would actually try and fix the money problems, get out of as much trouble as he could and the Imperial Witness ploy was so he could ensure that he could stay and look after Nikki and Ekaterin. He was obviously not aware of the problems between himself and Ekaterin and this is not a huge surprise. After being in failing relationships it is sometimes hard to tell when they have degraded so much particularly when Ekaterin was hiding her feelings so much. While I am sure Tien was far from a saint he certainly appears to have been given a rough deal in terms of letting his viewpoint show. Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 20 00:01:16 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 19:01:16 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Ambitions References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516221324.01f59998@pop.luna.co.uk> <20030516215156.GB4703@fireopal.org> <3EC7CA7D.6C54@ecity.net> <05db01c31dc4$1eadad80$060d4b43@LAPTOP> <3EC95758.A1F90F3@microd.com> Message-ID: <077301c31e5a$8e6b4330$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Macdonald" > Paula Lieberman wrote: > > > > -- Paula Lieberman > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "K Kuhn" > > > > > Scott Raun wrote: > > > > > > So........how would Aral Jr. beat that escalating series of reputations > > > to the point where Miles is famous mostly as being Aral Jr's dad? The > > > > One option would be to go into something very different than his father and > > grandfather. His -rich- uncle Mark is specializing is a quite different > > area. Hmmm, perhaps Aral Jr would like to go to Beta and become an > > Nexus-wide renowned actor.... > > I'm just wondering why everyone is ignoring the other child, > is it because of her gender? > I was responding to the queston about Aral Jr., narrowly. Unless Barrayar changes majorly, Helen doesn't have -any- chance at going into the military, unless she blows off Barrayar as e.g. Elena did. > Let's see, what's the worst thing you can do to .... > > Helen the Great > Helen of Barrayar > Empress Helen > Empress Helen? That would require either marrying Gregor's male heir or a revolution -- Barrayaran law is Salic, meaning No Women Exercising Power in Their Own Name. > the thoughts are endless. > > Can you imagine Miles going down in history as Helen's Father. Could be, but the wrench to Barrayar would be perhaps the greatest in its history. --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Mon May 19 23:30:00 2003 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 23:30:00 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: Message-ID: > From: Joyeuse > Date: 19 May 2003 21:27 [...] > > couldn't know the higher maths would be useless (for him) until he > > tried to learn them. > > "Higher" maths _are_ virtually useless to anyone not going into a technical > field. I never went any higher than 2nd year algebra, and have never felt the > loss. (Coulda done without that, too, really--the quadratic equation has never > done me any particular good, even if I could remember how to solve one, or why > I'd want to.) Heh. "I went for a walk with a botanist who showed me a dozen flowers in a area that had looked to me like plain grass" (Alfred Wainwright) I understand (W W Sawyer) that quadratic equations got included in so the concept that an equation could have more than one solution might be presented to the students. And I have used topology in real life. "Brian, we have crossed the M1 twice. If we don't cross it again we won't get to the air show". Do you understand "marginal tax rate" ? If not such defects of social security as "poverty trap" are going to be a closed book. -- Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Mon May 19 23:42:19 2003 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 23:42:19 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: AND Jim's toe Message-ID: > From: lorraine fletez-brant > Date: 19 May 2003 22:39 [...] > > You never answered my earlier question : > do you think that students (not JUST me) who either did not learn math or > who didn't appear to have the capability *can* learn math if it is properly > taught? Whether in elementary or returning and starting from scratch as an > adult? Some can, some can't, perhaps the only debate is on the proportions. Of course perhaps you need an armory of methods for visual, audible and tactile thinkers. A possible experimental study would be to predict how many could be taught to use a slide rule (now that almost nobody in the West is taught) and see how many more with twice as much effort. BTW there is good evidence that some people can visualise a slide rule and do, err, "mental arithmetic" with it. -- Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Tue May 20 00:37:56 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 18:37:56 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: AND Jim's toe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3EC92484.3787.3211E9B@localhost> lorraine fletez-brant asked: > Ouch! What did you do? Kick a recalcitrant student ? Now, THAT > might be an incentive [NOT] Mmm, most of my students are bigger than I am... This may qualify as TMI, or just as TMS(tupidity). Saturday night, while undressing for bed, I got a little, um, flamboyant[1] and bashed my foot on the bed frame. Nothing's broken, but my right little toe is amazingly particolored. It's surprising how much of a nuisance such a small body part can be when it's damaged. (I'll probably be gimpy for another couple of days...) > You never answered my earlier question probably>: do you think that students (not JUST me) who either did not > learn math or who didn't appear to have the capability *can* learn > math if it is properly taught? Whether in elementary or returning and > starting from scratch as an adult? I honestly don't know. As a lifelong devotee of Crazy Eddie, I believe - but it is no more than a belief - that most people can learn substantially more mathematics (or English, or auto mechanics, or what have you) than they actually do, but it's hard to separate inclination from ability and talent from skill. Part of the problem is this. Mathematics, as I understand it, is not, in fact, a subject, but a manner of thinking. (What, pray, do arithmetic, geometry, symbolic logic, and game theory have in common?) That manner of thinking can, and I think should, be taught, but the precise vehicle is not all that important. For those with good spatial intuition, geometry is the way to go; for others, others. Teaching rules, algorithms, procedures - well, that's necessary, certainly, but it has little to do with the essence of mathematics. *Why* these rules - that is a more profoundly mathematical question. ("You can't divide by zero!" is an arbitrary dictum, *and a false one*. You *can* divide by zero - but it comes at a price, and a very high one, so high that mathematicians generally agree it isn't worth it. "You can't take the square root of a negative number!" Well, yes you can, but it comes at a price, in this case a low enough one to be worthwhile.) Why does *this* procedure work? Think about the algorithm for multiplying numbers you learned in grade school, and try to see why it works; then think about the corresponding algorithm for Roman numerals. Think about long division in the same way. Learn the why, not the how; then you're doing mathematics. Proofs... The teaching of proofs - the "three-column" proofs of high school geometry or what have you - is, I think, mishandled. Historically, as I understand it, proof emerged as a labor-saving device. Where the Mesopotamians would present a principle by giving example after example, the Greeks showed how to encapsulate all conceivable examples in a single framework. Pedagogically, the Mesopotamian method may be a better introduction, but it is ultimately much less efficient, and less beautiful. I don't know whether it would be possible to get that across to a bunch of teenagers, but would it be less successful than current methods? Sigh... It is a commonplace gripe among mathematicians that the man (er, person) in the street, if asked to name the great musicians of history, would likely come up with a reasonable list (Beethoven, Bach, Mozart...), but if asked to name the great mathematicians would probably start with Einstein (who was not a mathematician, though he had considerable mathematical training[2]). Newton's name would be familiar, and possibly that of Archimedes, but Gauss - and he is the third of that trinity - is unknown to most people. The complaint - the comparison - is stronger than it seems, for those three mathematicians, like the three musicians I named, were creators of beauty. "Euclid alone has looked on beauty bare", said St. Vincent Millay - but she was wrong. If you could see what I see... I weep. I honestly do. Jim Parish [1] What? I was *alone*. Don't tell me you've never done it... [2] The story that he was bad at mathematics is a canard. It's true that one of his math instructors criticized his abilities - but the instructor was the great Hermann Minkowski, and the subject was graduate-level geometry. --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue May 20 00:40:06 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:40:06 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030519234006.GA7165@ofb.net> On Mon, May 19, 2003 at 11:30:00PM +0100, Michael R N Dolbear wrote: > > "Higher" maths _are_ virtually useless to anyone not going into a > technical > > field. I never went any higher than 2nd year algebra, and have never > felt the > > loss. (Coulda done without that, too, really--the quadratic equation has > never > I understand (W W Sawyer) that quadratic equations got included in so the > concept that an equation could have more than one solution might be > presented to the students. > > And I have used topology in real life. "Brian, we have crossed the M1 > twice. If we don't cross it again we won't get to the air show". > > Do you understand "marginal tax rate" ? If not such defects of social > security as "poverty trap" are going to be a closed book. There's also a cultural aspect. The practical side, such as "marginal tax rate" -- even if you don't remember any calculus the idea of marginal, differential, changes can come in handy. And the "knowing what humans have accomplished and not being totally clueless when more knowledgeable people talk" side. Hirsch talks about "cultural literacy", not so much knowing lots of details of lots of things but knowing the outline of lots of things, being able to recognize stuff. Also "knowing what's possible and not" and "being able to smell total bullshit". Like the academics portrayed in _Fashionable Nonsense_ (Sokal and Bricmont) as co-opting and misusing scientific and mathematical jargon to impress the ignorant. And if one has technical training one has the option of going into a technical field later, or at least being able to talk to the techies. And the training of being able to think like a techie, rigor and accuracy and all that. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Tue May 20 00:53:28 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] It's Time Message-ID: I decided last Friday that this week would be time to let Da Kid go. He isn't eating enough, and while he doesn't complain, there are times when I see the nictating membranes in the corner of his eye high enough that it is a pain or anxiety response. The intercellular cancer has begun to cause enough symptoms it is affecting his quality of life negatively. So I called and set up an appointment to have him put to sleep tomorrow around 3:30pm, my friend Kate will take him to the Bellevue Humane Society and he will be cremated, his ashes returned to me. I'm going to have to do something soon about these ashes, five cats (Lin Mei, Toofey, Musette, Miss Klibee and by next week Da Kid) and one husband is getting to be a bit much. I will still have yearling Attila left to comfort me. at }->- :} Tinne ;} Laughter Heals :D -<-{ at --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Tue May 20 00:54:34 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: It's Time In-Reply-To: <200305192339.h4JNdir5017250@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: My Apologies for forgetting the OT: Marker on this. Susan in Seattle --------________--------________-------- From jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu Tue May 20 01:13:21 2003 From: jabrwok at mail.utexas.edu (Jason Bontrager) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 19:13:21 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Ambitions In-Reply-To: <3EC95758.A1F90F3@microd.com> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516221324.01f59998@pop.luna.co.uk> <20030516215156.GB4703@fireopal.org> <3EC7CA7D.6C54@ecity.net> <05db01c31dc4$1eadad80$060d4b43@LAPTOP> <3EC95758.A1F90F3@microd.com> Message-ID: <3EC97321.8000405@mail.utexas.edu> Richard Macdonald wrote: > > > I'm just wondering why everyone is ignoring the other child, > is it because of her gender? > > Let's see, what's the worst thing you can do to .... > > Helen the Great > Helen of Barrayar > Empress Helen > > the thoughts are endless. > > Can you imagine Miles going down in history as Helen's Father. Helen of Barraryar...kidnapped by a rejected Cetagandan paramour after being proposed to by Gregor Jr., Helen is secretly imprisoned on Zoave Twilight while Barraryar builds and send a fleet of ONE THOUSAND jump ships to scourge the Cetagandan Empire if they won't release her (which they can't do as they don't have her:-). Now how do we work in the horse? Jason B. --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Tue May 20 01:11:11 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Ambitions In-Reply-To: <200305192339.h4JNdir5017250@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Grin. Oh, I can just see it, Richard. Gregor's heir marries force-to-be-reckoned-with Helen Vorkosigan, whose beauty, charisma, grace,bright mind and quick thinking in a crisis give -him- a run for his money. The marriage would be tempestuous, passionate, the court filled with intrigue faced with a pair that works together and is better than anyone expects, with a genuine concern for the entire populatin of the planet - Barrayar would never be the same and Daddy Auditor/Admiral/Imp Sec man/diplomat's reputation will be eclipsed before his grandchildren are in school. Given Grandmother Cordelia's influence, I'd say Barrayar would be drug into their current century on women's issues kicking and screaming. Might even be a place that Auntie Elena and Uncle Baz could retire to with no regrets. at }->- :} Tinne ;} Laughter Heals :D -<-{ at --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 20 01:37:10 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:37:10 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: References: <20030519234006.GA7165@ofb.net> Message-ID: <07ac01c31e67$f4035630$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Sullivan" > On Mon, May 19, 2003 at 11:30:00PM +0100, Michael R N Dolbear wrote: > > > > "Higher" maths _are_ virtually useless to anyone not going into a > > technical > > > field. I never went any higher than 2nd year algebra, and have never > > felt the > > > loss. (Coulda done without that, too, really--the quadratic equation has > > never > > > I understand (W W Sawyer) that quadratic equations got included in so the > > concept that an equation could have more than one solution might be > > presented to the students. > > > > And I have used topology in real life. "Brian, we have crossed the M1 > > twice. If we don't cross it again we won't get to the air show". > > > > Do you understand "marginal tax rate" ? If not such defects of social > > security as "poverty trap" are going to be a closed book. > > There's also a cultural aspect. The practical side, such as "marginal tax > rate" -- even if you don't remember any calculus the idea of marginal, > differential, changes can come in handy. And the "knowing what humans have > accomplished and not being totally clueless when more knowledgeable people > talk" side. Hirsch talks about "cultural literacy", not so much knowing lots > of details of lots of things but knowing the outline of lots of things, being > able to recognize stuff. Also "knowing what's possible and not" and "being > able to smell total bullshit". Like the academics portrayed in _Fashionable > Nonsense_ (Sokal and Bricmont) as co-opting and misusing scientific and > mathematical jargon to impress the ignorant. > > And if one has technical training one has the option of going into a technical > field later, or at least being able to talk to the techies. And the training > of being able to think like a techie, rigor and accuracy and all that. Ah, language. If I say, "there's a delta" I am not necessarily talking about land at the end of a river.... but I very much would be unlikely to say "delta" to denote change to Steve, just as what one jump pilot says to another in vernacular, wouldn't be what they'd say to someone who couldn't handle wormhole math. One of the more croggling things I've heard, was some marketing types, talking using "bandwidth" as their buzzword of the month. It was astonishing, I think they might have said a sentence or two where they didn't use the word! EEs and others talking geek with full geek training use the term because of its denotations; the marketing pair were using it I-do-not-really-know-why, it wasn't something they had academically, I supposed they were copying engineers or some such, or trying to sound tech-savvy. Mostly they sounded banal... There are ways to describe things mathematical without using the lanugage of math, but it tends to be a lot harder. It's not impossible, but it's more difficult, both to express, and to convey, and there's less ambiguity involved, and usually a lot less precision about it. But then again, most people don't need that level of precision "to just get the idea across." And even in engineering, the jokes about "close enough" apply.... Pure mathematicians and theoretical physicists play with "exact" numbers, applied terms use "and error of order" or "estimated error" or such, and engineers the jokes mostly go, just treat an approximations as though everything is exact.... Proof that all odd numbers are prime: Mathematician: One is prime, 3 is prime, 5 is prime, by induction, all odd numbers are prime. Those inclined to test, note the 7 is prime, which constitutes proof.... Experimental physicist: One is prime, 3 is prime, 5 is prime, hypothesis, all odd numbers are prime -- 7 is prime, evidence for the hypothesis, nine is an experimental error, 11 is prime, 13 is prime, by induction then, all odd numbers are prime. Engineer: One is prime, 3 is prime, 5 is prime, 7 is prime, 9 is prime, 11 is prime.... all odd numbers are prime. --------________--------________-------- From lucy at chubb.wattle.id.au Tue May 20 02:40:42 2003 From: lucy at chubb.wattle.id.au (Lucy Chubb) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:40:42 +1000 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling; math in Lois' work In-Reply-To: <06c301c31e2a$17081050$060d4b43@LAPTOP> References: <44.31482b54.2bf8513b@aol.com> <3EC7139B.77FA50E@w-link.net> <06c301c31e2a$17081050$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <20030520014042.GE1173@chubb.wattle.id.au> On Mon, May 19, 2003 at 12:11:30PM -0400, Paula Lieberman wrote: > There are reasons that math's divided into "pure" and "applied" -- the > latter looks as math as a tool for doing other things, and the former looks > at math for its own sake. There tend to be some noticeable differences in > attitudes and temperament between the people who do into one versus the > other. Arthur C. Clarke caught some of it with some of his stories. I > don't recall Lois having focuses on math, unlike e.g. welding technology, > which was in the structure of Falling Free. Sometimes perhaps there's She does! It's central to solving what happened to the mirror in Komarr (e.g., when the professors are holed up at the experimental heat generation station living off military rations). LucyC --------________--------________-------- From megj at nwlink.com Tue May 20 01:43:26 2003 From: megj at nwlink.com (Meg Justus) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:43:26 -0700 Subject: adult literacy volunteers, was [LMB] liable to learn? ot: References: <002d01c31e23$839d0420$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <017f01c31e68$ff01b580$eccf4b43@meg> Lois: > Here's a place where individuals -- like you guys -- *can* make a > difference in other people's lives, instead of just talking about it. > Many cities -- Minneapolis is one -- have adult literacy programs > that train and use volunteer tutors. Unless, of course, your city's literacy program is so wrapped up in its own bureaucracy that nothing ever happens even if you're bugging them on a regular basis to use you. Back when I lived in a small town in Ohio, I tutored a woman who pretty much had to start from her ABCs, and who wound up with her GED (I still can't believe how determined she was -- complete awe on my part). When I moved here, I signed up with the local literacy council, went through their training at their insistence (in spite of having been through the training before, and having successfully tutored), and then *they never called me*!!! I waited a month, then started calling. Got put off over and over and over and over. After almost a year I finally gave up. I still get fundraising letters from them, almost ten years later. But it's not money I have to give... Megaera who *misses* tutoring -- it's so much fun --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 20 01:47:14 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:47:14 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Ambitions References: Message-ID: <07bb01c31e69$5c0f45d0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> I suspect it would be a lot more likely that Helen would go into medicine like her greatgrandmother (I expect that Miles would be likely to send his children off to visit Greatgrandma, after all, he got sent to visit Grandma on Beta, and Barrayar of Mile's early middle age, is a lot less insular than it was in his youth) or some other endeavor, and I'd give about forty percent odds that she'd decide to have a career offplanet.... given Miles' problems finding a Lady Vorkosigan/someone female with the personality and brain power necessary to be able to deal with him on a continuing basis and for him to be willing to continue dealing with her, and also willing to settle down with him on Barrayar, the chances that his firstborn daughter would be a demure Vor miss, doesn't seem all that likely to me. -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Profit" > Grin. Oh, I can just see it, Richard. Gregor's heir marries > force-to-be-reckoned-with Helen Vorkosigan, whose beauty, charisma, > grace,bright mind and quick thinking in a crisis give -him- a run for > his money. > > The marriage would be tempestuous, passionate, the court filled with > intrigue faced with a pair that works together and is better than > anyone expects, with a genuine concern for the entire populatin of the > planet - Barrayar would never be the same and Daddy > Auditor/Admiral/Imp Sec man/diplomat's reputation will be eclipsed > before his grandchildren are in school. > > Given Grandmother Cordelia's influence, I'd say Barrayar would be drug > into their current century on women's issues kicking and screaming. > Might even be a place that Auntie Elena and Uncle Baz could retire to > with no regrets. > Pigs are more likely to fly.... > at }->- :} Tinne ;} Laughter Heals :D -<-{ at > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 20 01:50:53 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:50:53 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Ambitions References: <5.1.1.6.2.20030516221324.01f59998@pop.luna.co.uk> <20030516215156.GB4703@fireopal.org> <3EC7CA7D.6C54@ecity.net> <05db01c31dc4$1eadad80$060d4b43@LAPTOP> <3EC95758.A1F90F3@microd.com> <3EC97321.8000405@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <07c001c31e69$de72a300$060d4b43@LAPTOP> What about Helen taking over the Dendarii instead? Helen 0'Loy was done by Lester Del Rey or someone else, a couple generations ago... "And the horse she rode in on." Godiva was a lady who from Barrayar did ride, To show the idiot Vor lords there her fair and pure white hide, The most observant man of all, Vorkosigan of course, Was the only one who noticed that Godiva rode a horse! -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Bontrager" > Richard Macdonald wrote: > Helen of Barraryar...kidnapped by a rejected Cetagandan paramour after > being proposed to by Gregor Jr., Helen is secretly imprisoned on Zoave > Twilight while Barraryar builds and send a fleet of ONE THOUSAND jump > ships to scourge the Cetagandan Empire if they won't release her > (which they can't do as they don't have her:-). > > Now how do we work in the horse? --------________--------________-------- From lucy at chubb.wattle.id.au Tue May 20 02:51:54 2003 From: lucy at chubb.wattle.id.au (Lucy Chubb) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:51:54 +1000 Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: In-Reply-To: <3EC901E4.4665.299DE38@localhost> References: <3EC7D085.20705@mail.utexas.edu> <3EC901E4.4665.299DE38@localhost> Message-ID: <20030520015154.GF1173@chubb.wattle.id.au> On Mon, May 19, 2003 at 04:10:12PM -0500, jparish at siue.edu wrote: > Joyeuse wrote: > > I never went any higher than 2nd year algebra, and > > have never felt the loss. > > And more's the pity. Tone-deaf people probably never feel the loss of > Beethoven and Bach. Yes! For those with the aptitude, time, and a good teacher, higher mathematics can be a thing of great beauty. I'm not a mathematician, but don't regret any of the higher maths that I did. No, it wasn't useful in the sense that it helps me in everyday life, or even in my everyday work (as a researcher in computer science), but neither does Shakespeare, Bach, or other great works of art. But then, I don't think that things _necessarily_ have to be useful to be worth investing significant effort in them. LucyC --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 20 01:55:49 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:55:49 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: AND Jim's toe References: <3EC92484.3787.3211E9B@localhost> Message-ID: <07d701c31e6a$8ee90b70$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: \ > [2] It's true that > one of his math instructors criticized his abilities - but the instructor was > the great Hermann Minkowski, and the subject was graduate-level > geometry. His head just wasn't there in Minkowksi space.... didn't have the requisite photons and electrons for the inspirational flash..... [of light and a hearty, "Heigh-ho, signal!" - stealing that last from the phone message of one an old friend from college....] --------________--------________-------- From raye_j at yahoo.com Tue May 20 01:56:14 2003 From: raye_j at yahoo.com (Raye Johnsen) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: English Grammar (was: Re: [LMB] Ambitions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030520005614.25814.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> I mean no insult to Susan, but this usage really, really, REALLY irks me: --- Susan Profit wrote: > Given Grandmother Cordelia's influence, I'd say > Barrayar would be drug > into their current century on women's issues kicking > and screaming. I absolutely LOATHE the use of the word 'drug' as the past tense of 'drag'. The past tense of 'drag' is 'dragged'. 'A drug' is a substance introduced into the body to obtain a change in the chemical balance of the body. It may be medicinal, recreational or harmful in nature. 'To drug' is to introduce a drug into a person's body. I see this in correspondence with teenagers ALL THE TIME and it drives me NUTS. I feel like screaming, "What, they've invented an injection that transports you, like in 'Star Trek'? Where do you get it?" But then again, maybe it would *take* a planetwide dose of hallucinogens to affect the sort of change Susan is talking about. Raye ===== raye_j at yahoo.com livejournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/windtear http://www.thejohnsens.com/index.html "It means, I'm in charge... where are you going?" - C-3PO (to R2D2), 'Star Wars: Attack of the Clones' __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz Tue May 20 02:52:23 2003 From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:52:23 +1200 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: English Grammar Message-ID: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F53702A7C9AB@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> Really, I think we should only worry about correct usage for official or professional situations. There are plenty of usages in English that are not "correct", but are in common use, and I think quibbling about something used in a jocular kind of fashion amongst friends, as it were, is a bit unnecessary. We're not writing for publication here on the list. I, for example, always say "hung" instead of "hanged" (when referring to what happened to criminals), and I really believe that the past tense of sneak ought to be "snuck" - but my friends know they are personal foibles and don't assume I don't know the correct usage (which I do manage to employ at work). [Omit boring, patronising lecture on the richness and variety of English and the charm of dialectal phrases; skip the diatribe on Victorians who tried to fit English language into a Latin box (which is not at issue here).] However, I certainly know what it's like to have one's pet peeve tweaked - just get me on the topic of apostrophes... (there is *no* excuse for not using them correctly!). I couldn't care less about dangling participles. I think "whom" is an extremely useful word, which shouldn't be allowed to die out. Consistency? What's that? > -----Original Message----- > From: Raye Johnsen [mailto:raye_j at yahoo.com] [snip] > I absolutely LOATHE the use of the word 'drug' as the > past tense of 'drag'. The past tense of 'drag' is > 'dragged'. [snip] --------________--------________-------- From gsvaughan at insightbb.com Tue May 20 03:04:35 2003 From: gsvaughan at insightbb.com (George S. Vaughan) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:04:35 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: AND Jim's toe In-Reply-To: <3EC92484.3787.3211E9B@localhost> References: <3EC92484.3787.3211E9B@localhost> Message-ID: <390jcvs3runk60e1pk46el7ijl1bafisdv@4ax.com> On Mon, 19 May 2003 18:37:56 -0500, jparish at siue.edu wrote: >*Why* >these rules - that is a more profoundly mathematical question. ("You >can't divide by zero!" is an arbitrary dictum, *and a false one*. You >*can* divide by zero - but it comes at a price, and a very high one, so >high that mathematicians generally agree it isn't worth it. "You can't >take the square root of a negative number!" Well, yes you can, but it >comes at a price, in this case a low enough one to be worthwhile.) Even more familiarly, "Zero doesn't have a predecessor!"There is no number such that twice it is one!" Both of these would be disputed by any Peano-playing arguer. Further, at one time it was worth your life to say that there is a number that multiplied by itself was equal to two. On the other end of the spectrum, why does division by zero come at such a high price? Just last week I was reading a section entitled "Arithmetic on [0, \infty]" from chapter one of a book off my bookshelf. Without infinity, how else would you do real or complex analysis? >. Newton's name would be >familiar, and possibly that of Archimedes, but Gauss - and he is the >third of that trinity - is unknown to most people. The names that immediately sprang to mind to me were Gauss, Newton, Liebnitz, Wiles, Fermat himself, the Bernoullis, Euclid. I try to forget about Pythagoras for the reason above. --------________--------________-------- From russellmartens at hotmail.com Tue May 20 03:16:15 2003 From: russellmartens at hotmail.com (Russell Martens) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:16:15 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: AND Jim's toe References: Message-ID: > >Jim Parish, mathematician > sitting at home sourly nursing a bruised toe< > > Ouch! What did you do? Kick a recalcitrant student ? It's an epidemic. I just got over four months in a wheelchair, nursing a bunch of torn ligaments and my wife was run over by a Ford Aerostar a week ago. (She's fine, just a madly bruised and swollen foot.) Some conspiracy is trying to lame every LMB fan on the planet. (Or am I just paranoid?) Russell (who spent all weekend at a con with his wife despite the foot) --------________--------________-------- From russellmartens at hotmail.com Tue May 20 03:19:58 2003 From: russellmartens at hotmail.com (Russell Martens) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:19:58 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: AND Jim's toe References: <3EC92484.3787.3211E9B@localhost> Message-ID: > > Ouch! What did you do? Kick a recalcitrant student ? Now, THAT > > might be an incentive [NOT] > > Mmm, most of my students are bigger than I am... This may qualify as > TMI, or just as TMS(tupidity). Saturday night, while undressing for bed, > I got a little, um, flamboyant[1] and bashed my foot on the bed frame. > Nothing's broken, but my right little toe is amazingly particolored. It's > surprising how much of a nuisance such a small body part can be when > it's damaged. (I'll probably be gimpy for another couple of days...) Fits my conspiracy theory. I was done in by common sense. I was injured choosing NOT to go rock climbing... Russell --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 20 03:19:35 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:19:35 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: AND Jim's toe References: <3EC92484.3787.3211E9B@localhost> <390jcvs3runk60e1pk46el7ijl1bafisdv@4ax.com> Message-ID: <081201c31e76$427eb440$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Most people never get near hyperreal calculus, and infinitesmals of different orders, and infinite integers of different orders.... I'm trying to remember some of the other terms used, and can't... predicate logic was involved, but I just can't at the moment remember the other terms. Transfinite, maybe? -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "George S. Vaughan" > On Mon, 19 May 2003 18:37:56 -0500, jparish at siue.edu wrote: > > >*Why* > >these rules - that is a more profoundly mathematical question. ("You > >can't divide by zero!" is an arbitrary dictum, *and a false one*. You > >*can* divide by zero - but it comes at a price, and a very high one, so It's not really "a high price"..... hmmm, there's Heaviside Operational Calculus.... > >high that mathematicians generally agree it isn't worth it. "You can't Again, it's not high. And it;'s not really "dividing by zero" exactly.... dividing by infinitesmals is more like it.... which gets into different orders of infinity... "Alpha null bottles of beer in the wall, aleph null bottles of beer, take one down, pass it around, aleph null bottles of beer in the wall!" > >take the square root of a negative number!" Well, yes you can, but it > >comes at a price, in this case a low enough one to be worthwhile.) > > Even more familiarly, "Zero doesn't have a predecessor!"There is no > number such that twice it is one!" Both of these would be disputed by > any Peano-playing arguer. Further, at one time it was worth your life > to say that there is a number that multiplied by itself was equal to > two. > Not since at least the Pythagoreans, and probably before them, too.... > On the other end of the spectrum, why does division by zero come at > such a high price? Just last week I was reading a section entitled > "Arithmetic on [0, \infty]" from chapter one of a book off my > bookshelf. Without infinity, how else would you do real or complex > analysis? > Most people never have done/never will do complex variables. > >. Newton's name would be > >familiar, and possibly that of Archimedes, but Gauss - and he is the > >third of that trinity - is unknown to most people. > > The names that immediately sprang to mind to me were Gauss, Newton, > Liebnitz, Wiles, Fermat himself, the Bernoullis, Euclid. I try to > forget about Pythagoras for the reason above. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 20 03:26:55 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:26:55 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: How do you know? Message-ID: <35.38325a35.2bfaec6f@aol.com> > Joyeuse wrote: > > >"Higher" maths _are_ virtually useless to anyone not going into a > >technical field. > But if you never study them at all, how do you inow you don't have some hidden talent for the subject? I fought taking biology as long as possible (because it sounded awful), then ended up majoring in it. I wasn't exposed to law until after I married, and wish I had gone to law school. Mary --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Tue May 20 03:13:19 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:13:19 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: In-Reply-To: <07ac01c31e67$f4035630$060d4b43@LAPTOP> References: <20030519234006.GA7165@ofb.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030519211134.01db2090@pop.east.cox.net> At 19:37 05/19/2003, Paula Lieberman wrote: >Proof that all odd numbers are prime: > >Mathematician: One is prime, 3 is prime, 5 is prime, by induction, all odd >numbers are prime. Those inclined to test, note the 7 is prime, which >constitutes proof.... > >Experimental physicist: One is prime, 3 is prime, 5 is prime, hypothesis, >all odd numbers are prime -- 7 is prime, evidence for the hypothesis, nine >is an experimental error, 11 is prime, 13 is prime, by induction then, all >odd numbers are prime. > >Engineer: One is prime, 3 is prime, 5 is prime, 7 is prime, 9 is prime, 11 >is prime.... all odd numbers are prime. HAH! I had seen this some years ago, but had forgotten how it went. I'm an idiot in math. My last math course was 9th grade algebra, and that was in 1949. I happened to attend a college that didn't require any math courses to graduate. When I was in the Navy, I was a navigator, which meant that I learned how to punch log tables, and how to add and subtract hours/minutes/seconds and degrees/minutes/seconds, and I even learned how to use a logarithmic scale and a pair of dividers to do time/speed/distance calculations. Anything beyond that is beyond me and has always been. As it turned out, I ended up working in fields where I had to do a lot of calculating (how many board feet of lumber in a house, or correct insurance rates based on past experience in a fleet of cars, for instance) and I ended up in computers until I retired, but still never used any advanced math. Nevertheless, I wish I had learned more than I did. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 20 03:34:18 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:34:18 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Ways of learning Message-ID: <14a.1f777d7c.2bfaee2a@aol.com> Lorraine wrote: > You never answered my earlier question : > > do you think that students (not JUST me) who either did not learn math or > who didn't appear to have the capability *can* learn math if it is properly > > taught? Whether in elementary or returning and starting from scratch as an > adult? I know this was addressed to someone else, but one thing to remember is that there are a lot of different ways to learn any subject. I used to find that often when I couldn't get through to some kid, another kid who understood whatever it was could explain it better, using a vocabulary common to the grade level or something. I regularly had top students work with the ones who didn't get it yet, and it usually worked. Also, the more senses involved, the better--see it, hear it, write it, draw a diagram of it, read it aloud, do a lab where you handle the shape of it, whatever it takes. We even cooked and ate a chicken in one class and reassembled the skeleton as a project. It's amazing what works. Mary --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 20 03:48:45 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:48:45 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien Message-ID: <187.1a1395cb.2bfaf18d@aol.com> Mandos wrote: > > You are judging Tien on a life related through the eyes of someone he hurt > and the actions of a few weeks. What kind of image would I get of you for > example if I saw only the perceptions of someone who didn't like you > combines with your actions during a week of extreme stress in your life. It > is highly unlikely to provide a balanced view of you as a person. > > The classic example is when Tien tries to turn Imperial Witness. We only > have Miles internal monologue to tell us that he was doing it to save his > own hide. What if Tien really did want to come clean and try to fix things, > it was simply Miles who disbelieved his motives. Maybe the night before he > looked at the mess he was in, became disgusted with his own actions and the > mess his life had become, spurred on by Ekaterins outbursts he thought he > would actually try and fix the money problems, get out of as much trouble > as > he could and the Imperial Witness ploy was so he could ensure that he could > stay and look after Nikki and Ekaterin. > > While I am sure Tien was far from a saint he certainly appears to have been > given a rough deal in terms of letting his viewpoint show. > > Mandos > /s > Just for curiosity, what do you see in Tien that you like so much? You have as little exposure to him as anyone else; less than Miles, who was a guest in his apartment. All we know about him is that: 1. He used Ekaterin's savings to pay his debts instead of arrange Nikki's treatment as he had told her he would; 2. He flitted from job to job, leaving as soon as he got bored; 3. He had no friends and was obviously not very close to his family; his mother wouldn't even offer to take Ekaterin and Nikki in; 4. He was an embezzler who took bribes from terrorists; 5. He took credit for others' generosity (the time Nikki remembered that Tien had taken them to the beach, but actually Hugo had paid for the vacation); and 6. He had speculated in risky investments, lost all his bribe money, embezzled money to replace it, and then panicked and wanted to turn state's witness, in spite of the fact that with fast-penta available, that was no longer an option. Mary --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 20 03:54:51 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:54:51 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Navigation and topology Message-ID: <61.313b259b.2bfaf2fb@aol.com> Little Egret said: > And I have used topology in real life. "Brian, we have crossed the M1 > twice. If we don't cross it again we won't get to the air show". I love it! My most usual comment in the same circumstances was more like "And the Navy trusted _you_ to navigate an _airplane?_" This, after we struck off the highway to take a "short cut" and ended up driving around and around in a cemetery we couldn't find the way out of. Mary --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Tue May 20 04:04:13 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:04:13 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien In-Reply-To: <187.1a1395cb.2bfaf18d@aol.com> Message-ID: <006801c31e7c$7e0460e0$03412904@earthlink.net> > All we know about him is that: [snip 1 thru 6] And he verbally and emotionally abused his wife, accused her unfairly, and ended up pushing her into situations where she could not have friends or outside contacts while living far from home. Laura G. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 20 04:04:00 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 23:04:00 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Math Message-ID: <11.11880225.2bfaf520@aol.com> Jim Parrish wrote: > Learn the why, not the how; then > you're doing mathematics. > This is so true. There was only one professor at my college that taught the why, actually by encouraging the students to figure it out for themselves, and he was the only one I could ever relate to very well in the math department. I have trouble remembering the how if I don't know the why, and could understand it so much better when I had figured it out for myself by trial and error or reason, or a combination of the two. Mary --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 20 04:16:29 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 23:16:29 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Helen Message-ID: <1d1.9eb14a1.2bfaf80d@aol.com> I can just imagine her as the first real female soldier from Barrayar--all that fighting with other kids who called her da a "mutie" would give her a good start. But then she might grow up to go into medicine--after all, it's really handy to know where all the nerve plexuses (plexi? plexae?) are. Off or on Barrayar, I think Miles' twins are going to be interesting to watch. Mary > From: "Paula Lieberman" > > > I suspect it would be a lot more likely that Helen would go into medicine > like her greatgrandmother (I expect that Miles would be likely to send his > children off to visit Greatgrandma, after all, he got sent to visit Grandma > on Beta, and Barrayar of Mile's early middle age, is a lot less insular > than > it was in his youth) or some other endeavor, and I'd give about forty > percent odds that she'd decide to have a career offplanet.... given Miles' > problems finding a Lady Vorkosigan/someone female with the personality and > brain power necessary to be able to deal with him on a continuing basis and > for him to be willing to continue dealing with her, and also willing to > settle down with him on Barrayar, the chances that his firstborn daughter > would be a demure Vor miss, doesn't seem all that likely to me. --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Tue May 20 04:34:14 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos Mitchinson) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:34:14 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien In-Reply-To: <187.1a1395cb.2bfaf18d@aol.com> Message-ID: > Just for curiosity, what do you see in Tien that you like so > much? You have as little exposure to him as anyone else; less than Miles, who > was a guest in his apartment. Don't get me wrong here, I don't like the guy. However I did feel the need to play devils advocate when he was getting a rough time of it in the list. My point is that Miles from a similar viewpoint l;ooks just as bad if not worse and it worries me that if people are willing to judge a man based on such a narrow viewpoint then there is a good chance people will make the same judgements in real life. > All we know about him is that: > > 1. He used Ekaterin's savings to pay his debts instead of arrange Nikki's treatment as he had > told her he would; Getting himself out of debt is certainly a step in the right direction to being financially viable enough to pay for medical costs. Debts we could assume were incurred while trying to get enough money for the aformentioned medical expenses. If you assume everyone who hides things from their spouse to avoid them worrying is a bad person the world is full of bad people. > 2. He flitted from job to job, leaving as soon as he got bored; And why is this a bad thing? I change jobs every few years. I do it to gain a range of experiance and because I enjoy new challenges. Does this make me a bad person? > 3. He had no friends and was obviously not very close to his family; his mother > wouldn't even offer to take Ekaterin and Nikki in; I fail to see what this has to do with anything. Not everyone gets along with their families, I know there are whole branches of my family I have nothing to do with. Tien certainly seemed to be close to his brother, at least this is how it came accross to me. Maybe he always lived in the shadow of his brother, never as popular and so he retreated and became something of a loner. Not all solitary people are bad. > 4. He was an embezzler who took bribes from terrorists; He was a desperate man, doing what he honestly thought was the best thing for his son, who made a mistake and took a bribe. He had no idea they were terrorists and he did no embezzling himself. A moments weakness in order to get medical attention for his son seems forgivable. > 5. He took credit for others' generosity (the time Nikki remembered that > Tien had taken them to the beach, but actually Hugo had paid for the vacation); And of course everyone explains to young children who pays for what and why. Children generally assume that all good things come from parents. Explaining that someone else has paid for something when they are still grabbling with the concept of paying for things is a bit of a waste of time. > 6. He had speculated in risky investments, lost all his bribe money, embezzled > money to replace it, and then panicked and wanted to turn state's witness, in spite of the > fact that with fast-penta available, that was no longer an option. Yep, thats right, we all think perfectly under extreme amounts of stress. Not. Take a guy who made a mistake. Threaten him with prison, have the woman he loves threaten to leave him, take all his money away, give him a huge debt and health problems and see exacly how well he will plan his next few actions. Personally I see Tien as a guy who seriously believes that any hint of mutation in his son is going to ruin his sons chance to get on in life. So he works at trying to get ahead as quickly as he can, however he is not social enough to be able to get on well at his jobs and so moves a lot to try and get the next big promotion never realising that he would be more successful staying in one place and getting a good reputation. His lack of social ability drives away his wife, who he loves but he cannot see the distance growing between them. His time begins to run out, he is likely to start suffering from thesymptoms any year now, he gets offered a large amount of cash. Finally the big chance is here but it is a little illegal, he takes it. He takes another risk, one that frequently pays off, but with very little experiance and knowledge he makes a mistake and ends up worse off than before. All for his son. It is simple for us to judge him knowing the outcome and having none of the stresses on ourselves. Mandos (Speaker for the dead in training ;-) /s --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Tue May 20 04:34:16 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos Mitchinson) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:34:16 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien In-Reply-To: <006801c31e7c$7e0460e0$03412904@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > > All we know about him is that: [snip 1 thru 6] > > And he verbally and emotionally abused his wife, accused her unfairly, > and ended up pushing her into situations where she could not have > friends or outside contacts while living far from home. Pushed her? The woman who was trained from birth by her family to shut out hardships and not communicate with with people. I can see it now Tien having a new scheme to try and get ahead in life and Ekaterin simply accepting it, not saying that she was unhappy hiding all emotion. Tien forging ahead with his plans would take her silence as acceptance. While he is indeed at fault here the full blame has to be shared. There are two people in a relationship and Ekaterin never played her part. >From the text it appears Tien never even knew there was a problem until she was about to leave him. This happened to a lesser extent in my own first marriage. Sometimes you just dont see the problems until people tell you how they feel and if they tell you too late to fix it then it fails. Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 20 04:55:02 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 23:55:02 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Navigation and topology mostly OT: References: <61.313b259b.2bfaf2fb@aol.com> Message-ID: <085301c31e83$9812e4f0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: > Little Egret said: > > > And I have used topology in real life. "Brian, we have crossed the M1 > > twice. If we don't cross it again we won't get to the air show". > > I love it! My most usual comment in the same circumstances was more like > "And the Navy trusted _you_ to navigate an _airplane?_" This, after we > struck off the highway to take a "short cut" and ended up driving around and > around in a cemetery we couldn't find the way out of. > Mary Cars travel on one dimensional roads on two dimensional surfaces, airplane travel in three dimension in ordinary operations.... I suspect Jump pilots wouldn't be that wonderful as land car drivers! Planes and spacecraft aren't constrained to one dimensional roads. Back when I was flying around the Front Range in Colorado, I could go places in a straight line, that cars would take hours to go to having to go up and down and around and via switchbacks and such. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 20 05:03:48 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 00:03:48 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling ot: References: <20030519200541.86677.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <087301c31e84$d1a0d280$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joyeuse" > --- Paula Lieberman a icrit : > > > The prodigies get heard about, but what about those who aren't? What's the > > average age I wonder, at which homeschooled kids learn to read? > > Well, that's one of the points of homeschooling--the "average" ceases to have > any importance in a classroom of one. > > Anyway, I've been hearing about this "average 12-year-old" for a long time, and > I have yet to meet the kid... It's, an, er, -mathematical- description.... do survey, get the ages of children when they learned to read, add them up, divide by the number kids, and there's the average age. Or, to extend it, extend the survey to include those who didn't learn to read effectively until adults, and generate the average. There are also the different peaks. Compare homeschooled to non-homeschooled. Etc. --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Tue May 20 05:02:42 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 04:02:42 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Who controls your health care? Message-ID: <20030519.210312.5837.130399@webmail10.lax.untd.com> Another lazy-ass header, I know. My apologies also to the person whose name I'm about to completely forget. Jim and another person compared the costs of FDA regulation of pharmaceuticals and seemed to come up uncertain of the answer to the question: Were more people saved by FDA regulation than killed or forced to suffer by it (this might even be empirically testable but I'd be willing to bet money that it's not *politically* testable, thank you v. kindly, academic liberals) An answer might be to point to a U.S. private charitable organization: Consumer's Union. It bids fair, corrupted by the temptations to rent-seeking, [*] to go the way of the Audobon society, but still: CU keeps the assorted corporate feet to the fire by excercising the tremendous purchasing power of the US middle-class. Making shoddy drugs? FDA emasculated or eliminated [**]? Consumer's Union (or a similar organization) publishes its Consumer's Report to the effect that drug product Relaxin has sexual side-effects and makes your hair fall out. Farewell, Relaxin... So yes, it's not all or nothing here in the US--either a government agency OR a massive corporation. Neither the fourth estate (who admittedly too often make me, screwing around at home on this listserv look dilgent and careful) nor the freedom of association are dead. Americans up and organize for ALL kinds of things (Like my small town wh. just raised 100K to move a friggin' BARN. More power to them, tho, if that's what they want :-) But to be fair I don't really know enough about the subject to pontificate any further--take the above as mainly speculation... Kirsten Edwards [*]lazy-ass defintion of rent-seeking: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww000223.shtml If you want better come bug me at work when your tax dollars are being spent :-) [**] Not likely, IMHO, but that's just because I'm cynical. Is there *ever* a gov't program or bureacracy that ends? "Okay, we basically solved the problem/aren't the only answer/are no longer effective" let's close shop! Hah. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Tue May 20 05:14:20 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 04:14:20 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Government employees Message-ID: <20030519.211424.5837.130496@webmail10.lax.untd.com> Alex H., after inveighing against the piss-poor behaviour and competance fo some gov't employees she's known at the FDA apologizes to "...all the talented, skilled, and useful government employees who may have accidentally been tarred by this brush." Which is v. kind of you but should not be necc. if your description of said piss-poor employees is accurate. It never fails to amaze me how so many government employees aren't MORE infuriated by bureacratic incompetence than civilians. We would, it seems, have more to be angry about. Kirsten (Your friendly neighborhood gov't employee) Edwards ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Tue May 20 05:20:05 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 04:20:05 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: Miles, Elena & Tien Message-ID: <20030519.212041.5837.130562@webmail10.lax.untd.com> Just a brief note to those arguing back and forth on the essential moral character of young Miles, Miles, Tien, Elena etc as expressed across the Vorkosigan Books: Very nice indeed. I'm enjoying reading them! Kirsten (off topic for now) Edwards This space for rent ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 20 05:24:16 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 00:24:16 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien References: Message-ID: <088801c31e87$adc2f840$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mandos Mitchinson" > > Just for curiosity, what do you see in Tien that you like so > > much? You have as little exposure to him as anyone else; less than Miles, > who > > was a guest in his apartment. > > Don't get me wrong here, I don't like the guy. However I did feel the need > to play devils advocate when he was getting a rough time of it in the list. > My point is that Miles from a similar viewpoint l;ooks just as bad if not > worse and it worries me that if people are willing to judge a man based on > such a narrow viewpoint then there is a good chance people will make the > same judgements in real life. > > > All we know about him is that: > > > > 1. He used Ekaterin's savings to pay his debts instead of arrange Nikki's > treatment as he had > > told her he would; > > Getting himself out of debt is certainly a step in the right direction to > being financially viable enough to pay for medical costs. Debts we could What? He evinced no interest in arranging medical treatment for Nikki. As for his debt, a prudent, responsible person wouldn't have had them! > assume were incurred while trying to get enough money for the aformentioned > medical expenses. If you assume everyone who hides things from their spouse > to avoid them worrying is a bad person the world is full of bad people. > It's what's hidden, and why, that are amongs the crucial issues. > > 2. He flitted from job to job, leaving as soon as he got bored; > > And why is this a bad thing? I change jobs every few years. I do it to gain > a range of experiance and because I enjoy new challenges. Does this make me > a bad person? > If you leave because you're a loser who 's perpetually screwing up, making unfriends, failing to get promoted, and generally regarded as doing a lousy job and being a lousy employee, that's a far different situation than leaving for more pay and more responsibility and/or different ranges of experience. There are positive reasons for moving, and negative ones, and "wore out his welcome and his scams were catching up with him" seemed to apply to Tien, not any "good reasons" and not more money, and more financial security.... > > 3. He had no friends and was obviously not very close to his family; his > mother > > wouldn't even offer to take Ekaterin and Nikki in; > > I fail to see what this has to do with anything. Not everyone gets along > with their families, I know there are whole branches of my family I have > nothing to do with. Tien certainly seemed to be close to his brother, at > least this is how it came accross to me. Maybe he always lived in the shadow > of his brother, never as popular and so he retreated and became something of > a loner. Not all solitary people are bad. > Not having a social safety net, ESPECIALLY on Barrayar, where family was so important, is telling.... someone who the family is NOT willing to cover for, is someone who usually has gone -far- beyond what the society considers tolerable. There are lots of stories of ne'er do well family members being supported by parents, siblings, etc., who get shafted and used and financially abused in the process, but do so "because they're family." Tien likely was an especially repulsive leech, to be so unwelcome.... > > 4. He was an embezzler who took bribes from terrorists; > > He was a desperate man, doing what he honestly thought was the best thing > for his son, who made a mistake and took a bribe. He had no idea they were > terrorists and he did no embezzling himself. A moments weakness in order to > get medical attention for his son seems forgivable. > Was it ONLY that once, though?! > > 5. He took credit for others' generosity (the time Nikki remembered that > > Tien had taken them to the beach, but actually Hugo had paid for the > vacation); > > And of course everyone explains to young children who pays for what and why. > Children generally assume that all good things come from parents. Explaining Nikki was not stupid, he could tell there were problems. Children don't tend to be particularly oblivious. > that someone else has paid for something when they are still grabbling with > the concept of paying for things is a bit of a waste of time. > > > 6. He had speculated in risky investments, lost all his bribe money, > embezzled > > money to replace it, and then panicked and wanted to turn state's witness, > in spite of the > > fact that with fast-penta available, that was no longer an option. > > Yep, thats right, we all think perfectly under extreme amounts of stress. > Not. > What was he doing ahead of that time, though? > Take a guy who made a mistake. Threaten him with prison, have the woman he > loves threaten to leave him, take all his money away, give him a huge debt > and health problems and see exacly how well he will plan his next few > actions. Tien was an emotional abuser, among other things. Why SHOULD Ekaterin have had to put up with Tien-the-abusive-slime?! Tien was worse than the fellow I knew who pushed his wife out the door of a moving car. People who know both of them, advised her to leave him. She refused to, she didn't see his emotionally abusive verbal belittling of her as abuse, or something to leave over, -until- he shoved her out of the car. That fellow wasn't embezzling and wasn't as far as I know in debt.... > Personally I see Tien as a guy who seriously believes that any hint of > mutation in his son is going to ruin his sons chance to get on in life. So > he works at trying to get ahead as quickly as he can, however he is not Tien to me looked like a dysfunctional deluded abuser with no interest in getting help, and only interested in hiding his failings and living from day to day, and inflicting his frustration on other people. He didn't seem interested in change, and especially not, in changing himself. > social enough to be able to get on well at his jobs and so moves a lot to > try and get the next big promotion never realising that he would be more > successful staying in one place and getting a good reputation. His lack of > social ability drives away his wife, who he loves but he cannot see the > distance growing between them. > > His time begins to run out, he is likely to start suffering from thesymptoms > any year now, he gets offered a large amount of cash. Finally the big chance > is here but it is a little illegal, he takes it. He takes another risk, one > that frequently pays off, but with very little experiance and knowledge he > makes a mistake and ends up worse off than before. All for his son. > > It is simple for us to judge him knowing the outcome and having none of the > stresses on ourselves. Lots of other people get stresses of being in debt, and don't act like Tien did. --------________--------________-------- From otherlois at yahoo.com Tue May 20 05:27:48 2003 From: otherlois at yahoo.com (Lois Aleta Fundis) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: adult literacy volunteers, was [LMB] liable to learn? ot: In-Reply-To: <002d01c31e23$839d0420$0500000a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <20030520042748.84057.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lois McMaster Bujold wrote: > > Here's a place where individuals -- like you > guys -- *can* make a > difference in other people's lives, instead of just > talking about it. Many > cities -- Minneapolis is one -- have adult literacy > programs that train and > use volunteer tutors. Pat Wrede has been in one -- >I'll bet a few phone calls and a bit of research >would turn up something similar in many of your very >own neighborhoods. For those who are interested: your public library may either have such a program -- ours does -- or at least should be able to direct you to one. There's a national toll-free number to call, too, I think, but I don't have it handy. In our area, many of the students are "English as a Second Language" students, immigrants who are trying to become fluent in reading and speaking English. Quite a few actually have college and professional degrees in their home countries that are of no use to them here if they can't take the qualifying exams in English. Recently one of our "graduates" was able to obtain a position in her specialty as a doctor! She had the degree from her home country, but did not have the English skills to use it effectively here. Most of the U.S.-born students in our program are studying for their GED (high-school equivalency diploma) test. Often they fell through the cracks somehow due to learning disabilities of some sort or general disinterest in school which caused them to drop out, and finally in adulthood they realized they needed this stuff after all. ===== Lois Fundis ("the other Lois") otherlois at yahoo.com visit my blog -- http://auntlowey.blogspot.com "I didn't vote for him." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From otherlois at yahoo.com Tue May 20 05:32:09 2003 From: otherlois at yahoo.com (Lois Aleta Fundis) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: It's Time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030520043209.18755.qmail@web20801.mail.yahoo.com> --- Susan Profit wrote: > My Apologies for forgetting the OT: Marker on this. Susan, you have so many other things on your mind now that worrying about an OT: marker should be way down the list. I wish there was something more immediately practical I could do other than keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. Big hugs! ===== Lois Fundis ("the other Lois") otherlois at yahoo.com visit my blog -- http://auntlowey.blogspot.com "I didn't vote for him." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Tue May 20 05:32:49 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:32:49 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006b01c31e88$def835a0$03412904@earthlink.net> > From the text it appears Tien never even knew there was a > problem until she was about to leave him. What? He had fights with her when he accused her of sexual infidelities - which took her by complete shock, she couldn't even imagine what he was referring to. Then when he couldn't even justify that accusation, he accused her of sleeping with women friends. He was *stalking* her, for crying out loud. "She'd had no idea such a sexual mistrust had taken over his mind, until she'd caught him following her, watching her, turning up at odd times and bizarre places when he was supposed to be at workand had that perhaps had something to do with why that job had ended so badly? She'd finally had the accusation out of him. She'd been horrified, deeply wounded, and subtly frightened. Was it stalking, when it was your own husband? " This is definitely a couple with serious problems. Heck, there's the bit in chapter 3: "Did he mean to cut off all future children? When she'd tried to discuss the issue, he'd put her off with an airy, First things first; when she'd persisted, he'd become angry, accusing her of nagging and selfishness. That was always effective at shutting her up." That kind of fighting and dispute is definitely a sign of a problem. Heck, the way he rips into her in chapter 1 ought to be a definite sign that there are problems. If he didn't know there was a problem, it was because he was refusing to see what was pretty obvious. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Tue May 20 05:35:29 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 04:35:29 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: Consequences and Mercy Message-ID: <20030519.213557.5837.130693@webmail10.lax.untd.com> Mandos wrote that though (someone else's note) Miles learns from his mistakes, regrets them and wants to atone, this is moot because: "We only know about Miles regrets because we view most of the stories from inside his head. We cannot reasonbly judge what Tien may or may not have regretted unless we have the same luxury." Well, as it turns out, we *also* know about Miles remorse because of all those remorseful *acts* of his in wh. he attempts to atone for his mistakes. We know from Ekaterin's testimony that Tien fell deeply short of the "putting into action" side of atonement, even if we're willing to stipulate that, off the page, Tien was chock full of remorse. You could of course, argue that Ekaterin was an unreliable witness (I wouldn't, mind you) in wh. case, "While I am sure Tien was far from a saint he certainly appears to have been given a rough deal in terms of letting his viewpoint show" might be more to the point than merely provactive :-) Kirsten (briefly on topic) Edwards ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Tue May 20 05:42:28 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 04:42:28 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: Jim's Big Toe OT: Message-ID: <20030519.214304.5837.130754@webmail10.lax.untd.com> Back to laziness--if asked to name "Big mathematicians" I'd be stuck with the ancient Greeks & Mr. Riemann. (I did write a sonnet to his sums once :-). Where does that leave me.. One TMI, wh. may speak to Jim's rant about how to teach mathematics. I cannot recall *exactly* how my father taught me Boolean set theory when I was a wee lass of eight--but I do know that it stuck with me so hard that, about 5 years later, when the stuff showed up in a math class I could read through the lecture, skip the textbook and still finish the homework and test questions... But it did involve a LOT Of one-on-one learning-by-doing. So perhaps there's something to be said for the Mesopotamian method... On the other hand, of all my high school math classes, I thought the bits in Geometry doing the proofs was the most pure fun & v. satisfying. No accounting for tastes, I expect :-) Kirsten (back off topic, too) Edwards ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Tue May 20 05:58:02 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos Mitchinson) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:58:02 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien In-Reply-To: <088801c31e87$adc2f840$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: > > Getting himself out of debt is certainly a step in the right > > direction to > > being financially viable enough to pay for medical costs. Debts we could > > What? He evinced no interest in arranging medical treatment for > Nikki. As for his debt, a prudent, responsible person wouldn't have had them! Incorrect. We have Ekaterins testimony that she did not think Tien was going to get the treatment organised. As for debt 90% of people in western societies have debts, some bigger than others and some insurmountable dispite no fault on the part of the debtee. I have quite large debts and I don't see myself as a bad person because of it. > It's what's hidden, and why, that are amongs the crucial issues. People hide lots of things from their partners. Some big, some small, some should really be shared, but in Tiens marriage there was no one to share the problems with even if he had wanted to. While we know and love Ekaterin from Tiens point of view she was a woman he loved but she never shared her feelings with him, why would he open up to her about his issues, particularly when he thought he could solve them without her knowing. > If you leave because you're a loser who 's perpetually screwing up, making > unfriends, failing to get promoted, and generally regarded as > doing a lousy job and being a lousy employee, that's a far different situation than > leaving for more pay and more responsibility and/or different ranges of > experience. We don't know any of that applies. The textev only indicates that he moved jobs alot and did not seem to make friends. All Ekaterins biased viewpoint. He might have taken jobs, checked if there was a way he could fastrack to the top and if there wasn't he moved on. He may not have actually enjoyed the jobs, there is no textev as to what kind of jobs he was doing, he may have been looking for a job he actually enjoyed that had the prospects he needed. > > 3. He had no friends and was obviously not very close to his family; his > > mother wouldn't even offer to take Ekaterin and Nikki in; > > Not having a social safety net, ESPECIALLY on Barrayar, where family was so > important, is telling.... someone who the family is NOT willing to cover > for, is someone who usually has gone -far- beyond what the > society considers tolerable. There are lots of stories of ne'er do well family > members being supported by parents, siblings, etc., who get shafted and used and > financially abused in the process, but do so "because they're > family." Tien likely was an especially repulsive leech, to be so unwelcome.... Your proof of this lack of relationship is that Tien's mother would not take in Ekaterin and Nikki. Maybe his mother didn't like Ekaterin, maybe there was an argument and She didn't approve of the marriage. She may have been more than happy to take in Tien and Family, but not Tien's Widow and child. > > > 4. He was an embezzler who took bribes from terrorists; > > > > He was a desperate man, doing what he honestly thought was the best thing > > for his son, who made a mistake and took a bribe. He had no idea they were > > terrorists and he did no embezzling himself. A moments weakness in order > > to get medical attention for his son seems forgivable. > > Was it ONLY that once, though?! I don't know, hence my point that we do not know him or his actions well enough to judge him. > > > 5. He took credit for others' generosity (the time Nikki remembered > > > that Tien had taken them to the beach, but actually Hugo had paid for the > > > vacation); > > > > And of course everyone explains to young children who pays for what and > > why. Children generally assume that all good things come from parents. > > Explaining > > Nikki was not stupid, he could tell there were problems. Children don't > tend to be particularly oblivious. So Nikki is aware his parents may be having problems, how does this relate to who paid for a holiday and some apparently stolen generosity? > > > 6. He had speculated in risky investments, lost all his bribe money, > > > embezzled money to replace it, and then panicked and wanted to turn state's > > > witness, in spite of the fact that with fast-penta available, > > > that was no longer an option. > > > > Yep, thats right, we all think perfectly under extreme amounts > > of stress. > > Not. > > What was he doing ahead of that time, though? It depends, your guess is that he was bouncing from job to job being hated and reviled by all who met him. My guess is that he was moving from job to job trying hard to get a job that would earn enough to heal his son in an off planet facility. > > Take a guy who made a mistake. Threaten him with prison, have > > the woman he loves threaten to leave him, take all his money away, give him > > a huge debt and health problems and see exacly how well he will plan his next few > > actions. > > Tien was an emotional abuser, among other things. Why SHOULD > Ekaterin have had to put up with Tien-the-abusive-slime?! Many people who marry young emotionally abuse each other, and from personal experiance it can be a two way street. Being cold and unresponsive is just as hurtful as a torrent of abuse, and if neither party is capable of breaking the cycle and mending the relationship it will get worse until someone snaps. However the blame is still shared. > > Personally I see Tien as a guy who seriously believes that any hint of > > mutation in his son is going to ruin his sons chance to get on > > in life. So > > he works at trying to get ahead as quickly as he can, however he is not > > Tien to me looked like a dysfunctional deluded abuser with no interest in > getting help, and only interested in hiding his failings and > living from day > to day, and inflicting his frustration on other people. He didn't seem > interested in change, and especially not, in changing himself. There is absolutly no textev at all to provide that picture. You have taken one persons side of the story, and a pattern of job changing and generated a huge monster of a man with all kinds of problems, and of course Ekaterin as a perfect wife and mother who is being abused by this evil man. All I see is two people abusing each other without realising it and neither having the strength or courage to confront the other person about the problems. Ekaterin hiding behind her image of a Barrayaran wife and her mothers "be a stone advise", while Tien stumbles around ruining his career without realising it. > Lots of other people get stresses of being in debt, and don't act > like Tien did. And lots of people do. Thats what makes life so damn interesting. Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From zafaran at sff.net Tue May 20 06:10:18 2003 From: zafaran at sff.net (Patricia A. Swan) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 01:10:18 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien In-Reply-To: <006b01c31e88$def835a0$03412904@earthlink.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030520010819.031fbe10@pop3.sff.net> At 09:32 PM 5/19/2003 -0700, Laura Gallagher wrote: >Heck, the way he rips into her in chapter 1 ought to be a definite sign >that there are problems. > >If he didn't know there was a problem, it was because he was refusing >to >see what was pretty obvious. > >Laura Gallagher He has Borderline Personality Disorder. The list diagnosed him about two years using the diagnostic criteria that Diane E. looked up at work, and Lois confirmed that Tien was indeed written as a classic textbook case of the disorder. Pat in North Carolina -- * Patricia A. Swan <*> zafaran at dnet.net Ebay ID: zafaranswan * * Six Swans Design http://members.fortunecity.com/zafaran * --------________--------________-------- From michele_cox at sbcglobal.net Tue May 20 06:59:56 2003 From: michele_cox at sbcglobal.net (Michele Cox) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 22:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) In-Reply-To: <070e01c31e57$2f519690$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <20030520055956.11108.qmail@web80011.mail.yahoo.com> Tien may perfectly well *feel* all *kinds* of remorse; he doesn't seem to understand that action can (should) accompany remorse. It may even be that he doesn't understand that atonement is possible -- perhaps the only resolution he can imagine is making something not-happened or being forever a failure. But the problem for the people around him is the same, regardless of the cause. Peace be! Michele Paula Lieberman wrote:Also, Miles sincerely regrets the mistakes he's made and the results of them. He feels remorse and that he has to atone. Tien doesn't. -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michele Cox" > .... Tien and Miles have both done damage; the motivations > for that damage are different, and Miles clearly learns from > his mistakes (however slowly). > > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold --------________--------________-------- From michele_cox at sbcglobal.net Tue May 20 07:12:30 2003 From: michele_cox at sbcglobal.net (Michele Cox) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 23:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030520061230.84079.qmail@web80002.mail.yahoo.com> If I recall correctly, the treatment needed was covered on Komarr by Tien's insurance. It was his insistence on being treated anonymously outside of the Barrayaran sphere that resulted in the prohibitive cost. Peace be! Michele Mandos Mitchinson wrote: Getting himself out of debt is certainly a step in the right direction to being financially viable enough to pay for medical costs. Debts we could assume were incurred while trying to get enough money for the aformentioned medical expenses. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 20 07:16:34 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 02:16:34 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien References: <006b01c31e88$def835a0$03412904@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <089f01c31e97$5e24f080$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laura Gallagher" > > From the text it appears Tien never even knew there was a > > problem until she was about to leave him. > > What? He had fights with her when he accused her of sexual infidelities > - which took her by complete shock, she couldn't even imagine what he > was referring to. Then when he couldn't even justify that accusation, > he accused her of sleeping with women friends. He was *stalking* her, > for crying out loud. > > "She'd had no idea such a sexual mistrust had taken over his mind, until > she'd caught him following her, watching her, turning up at odd times > and bizarre places when he was supposed to be at workand had that > perhaps had something to do with why that job had ended so badly? She'd > finally had the accusation out of him. She'd been horrified, deeply > wounded, and subtly frightened. Was it stalking, when it was your own > husband? " > Also, the viewpoint above, is Ekaterin, -not- Miles. The reader is seeing Tien through his long-suffering wife's view. I thought Mandos' contention was wrong, that the viewpoint of Tien in the book was only from Miles, and this confirms it. The marriage was -never- a good one, and it just got worse over the years, with Ekaterin making all the accommodations, and her rewards being to be abused, with less abuse when she especially managed to mollify Tien in a way that Tien happened to be appreciating at that particular moment. > This is definitely a couple with serious problems. Or rather, this is a couple in which one of the partners, is not being a -partner-, but rather, is being an abusive spouse. That's something to set off a LOT of people, to regard Tien as a vile, villainous character. Ekaterin was putting is as much effort as she was humanly capable of, but with someone like Tien, who denied all possibility of there being problems, especially, that -he- was the main problem, it was an impossible situation for Ekaterin to smooth everything over in the "relationship". > Heck, there's the bit in chapter 3: > > "Did he mean to cut off all future children? When she'd tried to discuss > the issue, he'd put her off with an airy, First things first; when she'd > persisted, he'd become angry, accusing her of nagging and selfishness. > That was always effective at shutting her up." > > That kind of fighting and dispute is definitely a sign of a problem. More abuse. > Heck, the way he rips into her in chapter 1 ought to be a definite sign > that there are problems. > > If he didn't know there was a problem, it was because he was refusing to > see what was pretty obvious. He didn't regard it as "problem" but then he was delusional.... --------________--------________-------- From divyasatyam at satyam.net.in Tue May 20 07:34:07 2003 From: divyasatyam at satyam.net.in (Divya) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:04:07 +0530 Subject: [LMB] Re: Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: AND Jim's toe References: <200305192339.h4JNdvr5017253@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <003d01c31e99$d0e27f00$fb7bd2d2@yourveftt5u6s3> jparish at siue.edu wrote: > Learn the why, not the how; then you're doing mathematics. That's beautifully put. It's going into my sig file. I hated maths all through school - until an epiphany in college, thanks to a statistics professor who truly loved mathematics, and infected most of us. The turning point for me came when she got us discussing the Prisoner's Dilemma and went on to game theory. I was hooked, and have never looked back. > like the three musicians I named, were creators of beauty. "Euclid alone > has looked on beauty bare", said St. Vincent Millay - but she was > wrong. If you could see what I see... I weep. I honestly do. Thank you for this post. I think your students are a lucky bunch. On a related subject, I'd like to recommend a book I'm re-reading just now: _A BEAUTIFUL MIND, by Sylvia Nasar. It's compelling stuff. The Russell Crowe movie didn't do justice to the book. It bowdlerizes, waters down the extraordinary journey Nasar takes the reader through, replacing emotion with sentimentality, tragedy with bathos. Worst of all, the movie doesn't even mention the extraordinary impact John Nash's work had, and its applications in fields ranging from evolution theory to economics. Other than all the dithering about code-breaking, there's absolutely no attempt to show just what Nash's genius was all about - not even an explanation of the Nash equilibrium. It's incredibly annoying to me. Ah well. Rant mode off. cheers, Divya --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 20 07:35:57 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 02:35:57 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Consequences and Mercy References: <20030519.213557.5837.130693@webmail10.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <08a401c31e9a$139318f0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Tien versus Bothari -- Bothari tries to take as much responsibility for his acts as he can, and uses other people as governors on his actions. He -knows- he's depraved, and to the best of his ability, has tried to tie himself to people who have the moral sense destroyed in him, and has dedicated himself to the goals of protecting them and keeping them safe, including against other psychopaths, who don't -want- to be moral, and who don't want to be other than psychopaths. Bothair recognizes that he's missing something, and that what he's missing is -valuable-, and that there are other people who have the moral sense he lacks, who he can -trust- to direct his actions and help him find ultimate redemption and make his life count for good. Despite being a sociopath, then, Bothari is actually a moral character. Tien is -not- a moral character. He exhibits no evidence of concern for those who by Barrayaran culture, he should have pledged his life to cherish and protect, he constantly abuses his wife instead, he fails to save or allow his wife to keep any savings she's managed to accumulate; he deprecates his wife constantly, he stalks her, he keeps her under micromanagement control... classic abuser characteristics. He doesn't do the moral things, he doesn't attempt them, and he doesn't ever consider that he might be in error. Bothari questions what he does and what he thinks and how he's likely to act; Tien never does. Bothari is deeply flawed and damaged. Tien is also flawed -- the difference, is that Bothari actively accepts input from others, and tries as best he can, to follow the morally correct path. Tien doesn't. Tien has the occasional twinge of conscience perhaps that what he's doing isn't legal, but he rapidly rationalizes it away. He doesn't want to ask for help, doesn't want help, isn't willing to accept any help -- or questions. He doesn't want his worldview changed, he doesn't want his illusions examined. Bothair -knows- that he's operating with a partial deck, and does what he can, to get it compensated for. Tien doesn't want to consider than any of the cards in his deck aren't normal and acceptable, he doesn't -want- to have to look at himself, doesn't want to have anything touch him more than surface deep, perhaps for fear of what might be found there.... It's sort of the rather misogynist outlook in Dune, where -women- have a place in their psyches they can't look, and Paul Maud'Dib says to the Reverend Mothers, "Look in that place you can't see, and you'll find me staring back at you." Tien can't bear the possibility of looking into that mirror and seeing his flaws and dealing with them, and so the possibility of doing that and beginnign to deal with them/compensating, isn't there, either. Instead, he attacks Ekaterin, refuses to acknowledge his son is suffering from a genetic syndrome.... because those are things which threaten -him-. It's not that he has flaws, it's that he's a moral coward, that makes him so despicable. Tien, I got the feeling from when I read the book, was only bothered about things that 3rd parties might see and consider wrong.... he himself both seemed to lack any -effective- moral compuss, and lack any interest in having one that worked, or letting someone else participate in his decisions, and that included letting his wife have any say. -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirsten Edwards" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 12:35 AM Subject: [LMB] Re: Consequences and Mercy > Mandos wrote that though (someone else's note) Miles learns from > his mistakes, regrets them and wants to atone, this is moot because: > > "We only know about Miles regrets because we view most of the > stories from inside his head. We cannot reasonbly judge what > Tien may or may not have regretted unless we have the same luxury." > > Well, as it turns out, we *also* know about Miles remorse because > of all those remorseful *acts* of his in wh. he attempts to atone > for his mistakes. > > We know from Ekaterin's testimony that Tien fell deeply short > of the "putting into action" side of atonement, even if we're > willing to stipulate that, off the page, Tien was chock full > of remorse. > > You could of course, argue that Ekaterin was an unreliable > witness (I wouldn't, mind you) in wh. case, > > "While I am sure Tien was far from a saint he certainly appears > to have been given a rough deal in terms of letting his viewpoint > show" > > might be more to the point than merely provactive :-) --------________--------________-------- From michele_cox at sbcglobal.net Tue May 20 07:45:15 2003 From: michele_cox at sbcglobal.net (Michele Cox) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 23:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Religions In-Reply-To: <1cf.8f602f9.2be7b1aa@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030520064515.49641.qmail@web80004.mail.yahoo.com> One of the things I most delight in in Bujold's books is that the sense of the Divine expressed in her writings seems to me to be very close to mine. One essential factor is that it is *not* a simple thing - or at least, not an easy thing. It's not a set of rules to abide by resulting in perfection... it's mostly knocking about in the dark running into walls and things. And there's a wry, sometimes wrenching honesty: the "I'll have to leave that to the infinitely merciful" quote below, and the blessing Caz gives at the end of the Curse of Chalion, and the twisting edged grace of "he thinks he's making it up, but he's the One..." (and in general, the use of the Bunyan quote in that whole story). Peace be! Michele Cathal1950 at aol.com wrote: "I believe that the tormented are very close to God." Then to Ges.. "...I'll have to leave that to the Infinity Merciful. You exceed my capacity." To help Bothari she says to him, "Look, see, you're washed in blood, Blood washes away sin, right?" [...]After she knocks Bothari out, she tries a joke to calm herself "this wasn't' in my job description" but them fell back and an older and more serious discipline, whispering its words aloud. She easily picks up on and throws back at him, Piotr's beliefs when she says of her father that he is not dead while she is alive to remember him. [...]And Esar says to Cordelia that she is "some sort of a theist" "I am an atheist myself, a simple faith but a great comfort to these last days" And she replies "Yes, I have often felt the pull of it myself." Somewhere Aral says to her, I thought you believed there was meaning in that sort of thing ..And she replies, [yes, sometimes, but most of the time it's just...knocking about in the dark..trying..] --------________--------________-------- From mdbrazier at juno.com Tue May 20 06:56:55 2003 From: mdbrazier at juno.com (Michael D Brazier) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 00:56:55 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) Message-ID: <20030520.015309.-158511.3.mdbrazier@juno.com> On Tue, 20 May 2003 11:00:15 +1200 "Mandos" writes: > > The classic example is when Tien tries to turn Imperial Witness. We > only have Miles internal monologue to tell us that he was doing it to > save his own hide. What if Tien really did want to come clean and > try to fix things, it was simply Miles who disbelieved his motives. > Maybe the night before he looked at the mess he was in, became > disgusted with his own actions and the mess his life had become, > spurred on by Ekaterins outbursts he thought he would actually try > and fix the money problems, get out of as much trouble as he could > and the Imperial Witness ploy was so he could ensure that he could > stay and look after Nikki and Ekaterin. You're forgetting that Tien was less than truthful even when confessing to Miles. As I recall he said that Soudha had offered him a bribe, but not that he'd accepted it -- still less, that he'd been accepting bribes for several months. That doesn't look like repentance. (It also wasn't intelligent, for Soudha, once caught, would certainly have told Miles how long he'd been bribing Tien.) I think Miles got it right: Tien was acting from desperation, to save his job and marriage as best he knew how, but with no thought of restitution or atonement. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From michele_cox at sbcglobal.net Tue May 20 08:24:16 2003 From: michele_cox at sbcglobal.net (Michele Cox) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 00:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: The third way In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030507104621.02df95c0@mail.iqcisp.com> Message-ID: <20030520072416.91584.qmail@web80010.mail.yahoo.com> I don't think chemical imbalance counts, myself. Fighting a life-long battle with your own neurochemistry is not anything any God I am on speaking terms with will condemn, win or lose. Peace be -- Michele Louann Miller wrote:Yeah. Sometimes phrased as a statement that the only unpardonable sin is despair. Now THAT is a real p*sser when one is simultaneously a seriously practicing Episcopalian and an unmedicated chronic depressive. --------________--------________-------- From michele_cox at sbcglobal.net Tue May 20 08:36:48 2003 From: michele_cox at sbcglobal.net (Michele Cox) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 00:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Tien and Shame (was freedom and nudity) In-Reply-To: <20030515092303.S43892-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <20030520073648.34020.qmail@web80001.mail.yahoo.com> Bothari knows there's *something wrong.* He may not be sure what it is, but he knows it's there. Tien never figures that out, afaict. Peace be! Michele Azalais Malfoy wrote:I think it's because a lot of us have known, and personally hated, people like Tien, and because Tien's actions are the small, soul-numbing kind. Tien is more real to most of us than Bothari is. I have never known a Bothari. I have divorced a Tien. --------________--------________-------- From mdbrazier at juno.com Tue May 20 08:47:44 2003 From: mdbrazier at juno.com (Michael D Brazier) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 02:47:44 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien Message-ID: <20030520.025741.-158511.5.mdbrazier@juno.com> On Tue, 20 May 2003 15:34:14 +1200 "Mandos Mitchinson" writes: > > Just for curiosity, what do you see in Tien that you like so > > much? You have as little exposure to him as anyone else; less > > than Miles, who was a guest in his apartment. > > Don't get me wrong here, I don't like the guy. However I did feel > the need to play devils advocate when he was getting a rough time > of it in the list. My point is that Miles from a similar viewpoint l;ooks > just as bad if not worse and it worries me that if people are willing to > judge a man based on such a narrow viewpoint then there is a good > chance people will make the same judgements in real life. But does he, really? Up until _Memory_, Miles uses his talent for swindling people for good (or at least, not his own) ends: saving Arde Mayhew from ruin, settling the Tau Verde war, preventing a Cetagandan takeover of the Hegen Hub, various missions for ImpSec, etc. In _Memory_ Miles falls, trying to swindle Illyan; and it costs him his Impsec position and the Admiral Naismith persona. In _aCC_ Miles runs a minor swindle on Ekaterin with the garden; and that starts a scandalous rumor about him in High Vor circles, one that cannot be refuted without risking one of Barrayar's deepest political secrets. The picture is of a young and clever man, corrupted through his cleverness, then sinning, repenting, and reforming. Tien, by contrast, does not even act consistently for the end of helping his wife and son. Take the business with the embezzled funds: instead of using that money to cure himself and Nikki, as he could have done, he gambled it away in an insanely risky stock speculation. (And if he hadn't been so frightened of his disorder becoming known, he and Nikki could have been cured without any financial dodges at all.) ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From michele_cox at sbcglobal.net Tue May 20 09:06:44 2003 From: michele_cox at sbcglobal.net (Michele Cox) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 01:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: Song of Solomon (was: freedom and nudity) In-Reply-To: <001001c319a0$0f2ee860$0700000a@mordechai.clysdale.ca> Message-ID: <20030520080644.95103.qmail@web80010.mail.yahoo.com> Marna Nightingale wrote: I'm not sure there exists a person who has read the Song of Songs who takes the words entirely at face value. The question of interest, I think, is this: of all of the possible allegorical forms available, why is *openly erotic poetry and prose* far and away the most popular? /listinfo/lois-bujold. . . Because it most vividly evokes for us the understanding of a God Who loves us with passion, enthusiasm, eagerness, and delight...? (Despite the fact that we're amazed if even one other human being sees and loves us like that---!) Peace be! Michele --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Tue May 20 09:19:49 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 01:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030520010916.D35824-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Tue, 20 May 2003, Mandos Mitchinson wrote: > > Just for curiosity, what do you see in Tien that you like so > > much? You have as little exposure to him as anyone else; > > less than Miles, who was a guest in his apartment. > > Don't get me wrong here, I don't like the guy. However I did feel the need > to play devils advocate when he was getting a rough time of it in the list. Eh. I like a lot of characters most people don't like--but I don't like Tien! Tien is almost exactly like one of my exes. I have some of the same traits he has that you mention having as well. But I know it. I try and keep it under control so it doesn't mess up my life or anyone else's, and knowing myself as I do, I deliberately avoid situations where my less attractive qualities are liable to get me in trouble. I did not see Tien doing this. If you like or identify with Tien I don't have a problem with it, because I heavily identify with a number of really unpopular fictional characters--but arguing in his behalf here is kind of like going to Gryffindor Tower or the Sugarquill wearing a "Tommy's Girl" t-shirt. ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Tue May 20 09:45:39 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:45:39 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien In-Reply-To: <089f01c31e97$5e24f080$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: > Also, the viewpoint above, is Ekaterin, -not- Miles. The reader is seeing > Tien through his long-suffering wife's view. I thought Mandos' contention > was wrong, that the viewpoint of Tien in the book was only from Miles, and > this confirms it. The marriage was -never- a good one, and it just got > worse over the years, with Ekaterin making all the accommodations, and her > rewards being to be abused, with less abuse when she especially managed to > mollify Tien in a way that Tien happened to be appreciating at that > particular moment. Actually I contended that the view of Tien came from Ekaterin primarily as in the example. Miles was only included as he was another viewpoint. My issues with the list view of Tien come from the aspect that we never see it from his perspective only his spouse and the man who is in love with his wife, neither of whom are unbiased. > > This is definitely a couple with serious problems. > Or rather, this is a couple in which one of the partners, is not being > a -partner-, but rather, is being an abusive spouse. That's something to > set off a LOT of people, to regard Tien as a vile, villainous character. > Ekaterin was putting is as much effort as she was humanly capable of, but > with someone like Tien, who denied all possibility of there being problems, > especially, that -he- was the main problem, it was an impossible situation > for Ekaterin to smooth everything over in the "relationship". And this is the bit that really get to me. Tien is not the only abuser in this relationship. Let me repeat that for effect... Tien is not the only abuser in this relationship. Abuse comes in all forms, and completly shutting off your emotions from someone is just as much a form of abuse as Tiens manipulations. Tien is without a doubt, insecure, unable to communicate, solitary and fiscally moronic, however it still shows through for me in the books that he really does love and care for Ekaterin and Nikki. Ekaterin walls him off, ceases to care and shuts him out, and if you are in a relationship and you don't understand why it is happening (because you do not realise the harm you are doing to your partner) it really hurts, and it in turn subconsiously fuels your abuse. Another example of this is in Orson Scott Cards "Speaker for the Dead" which protrays a man who is a physical abuser of his wife, however unlike our viewpoint of Tien, this reader gets to see both sides of the relationship and the less obvious abuse that the wife inflicts on the abuser. I accept that many of you do not want to give any other viewpoints of Tien a chance after all he is an abuser of women and hence a "Monster" in society. But I hope a few of you will take a look at Tien with a less judgemental light, as a paniky, insecure man who did in most cases what he thought was right for his family who he did love and cherish and failed on all fronts. And maybe take a lok at Ekaterin, for all she is the hero, she is also an abuser and not just the victim that she herself portrays herself as in the book. The arguments are starting to go round in circles at this point and rather than repeat myself, and push this discussion into the Pizza realm I will bow out of the argument. Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Tue May 20 09:55:13 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 03:55:13 -0500 Subject: [LMB] The price of infinity OT: In-Reply-To: <081201c31e76$427eb440$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <3EC9A721.9689.21858B@localhost> I wrote: > "You can't divide by zero!" is an arbitrary dictum, *and a false > one*. You *can* divide by zero - but it comes at a price, and a > very high one. George Vaughan asked what that price was. Paula Lieberman claimed: > It's not really "a high price" it's not really "dividing by zero" I note that Paula's comment is entirely beside the point. The various constructs to which she alludes are logical and useful, but since they do not, as she concedes, involve dividing by zero, they do not pay the price to which I was referring. Let me make a comparison. The complex numbers are constructed by introducing a new number, called i, and decreeing that i.i = -1. From that point on, the usual laws of algebra and arithmetic are applied, and nothing too bizarre occurs. If we mimic this - if we decide to introduce a new number and call it "infinity" or inf, and decree that 1/0 = inf, what happens? We have 1 = 0.inf, which leads to: 1 = 0.inf = (0+0).inf = 0.inf + 0.inf = 1+1 = 2 If we accept 1 = 2, everything collapses; all numbers, including our new inf, wind up equal. To avoid that, we have to abandon the distributive law. That would not be the only casualty, but that's already too high a price for the convenience of a reciprocal for 0. Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Tue May 20 09:55:13 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 03:55:13 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: The great mathematicians In-Reply-To: <390jcvs3runk60e1pk46el7ijl1bafisdv@4ax.com> References: <3EC92484.3787.3211E9B@localhost> Message-ID: <3EC9A721.13767.2184EE@localhost> I named, as the greatest mathematicians of history, Archimedes, Newton, and Gauss. George S. Vaughan commented: > The names that immediately sprang to mind to me were Gauss, Newton, > Liebnitz, Wiles, Fermat himself, the Bernoullis, Euclid. This is a reasonable list - just as some might include Mahler, or Rossini, or Tchaikovsky on a list of the greatest musicians, and have an arguable case. Again, though, several of the names would not be recognized by most people. The three that I named were universal mathematicians; virtually every branch of mathematics which *anyone* was working on in their time, they worked on. The only others with comparable breadth who spring to my mind are Euler and Henri Poincare' (though John von Neumann, my pick for greatest mathematician of the 20th century, comes close). In addition: - Archimedes brought the techniques of Greek mathematics to their highest pitch, and is certainly the greatest mathematician of that era. - In developing the calculus, Newton unified a broad range of pre- existing but ad hoc techniques into a powerful and flexible tool. Barrow had already discovered the Fundamental Theorem; Fermat had pointed out, in essence, the First Derivative Test; Cavalieri's principles of indivisibles pointed the way to integration as a means of computing areas and volumes; and so on. After Newton (and, of course, Leibniz), these were brought together into a fruitful whole, whose range is still being extended. - Gauss similarly provided a unifying construction for algebraic number theory, by developing modular arithmetic. Differential geometry became a major field as a result of his work. (Frechet and others had done some work before him, but Gauss made the leap from curves to surfaces, and the Gauss-Bonnet theorem is one of the most unexpected and beautiful jewels of mathematics.) Nor are these his only contributions of this type, extending the range of mathematics to entire new areas. Those are my reasons for putting those three above the rest. Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Tue May 20 12:49:27 2003 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 07:49:27 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) References: Message-ID: <3ECA1647.72D55FCA@erols.com> Mandos wrote: > > While I am sure Tien was far from a saint he certainly appears to have been > given a rough deal in terms of letting his viewpoint show. > Well, We're told that he punches holes in the wall when angered, and we hear him calling his wife a bitch, two things that put him beyond the pale as far as I am concerned. I don't think I want to get my shoes dirty with his viewpoint. While you can have sympathy for someone so royally screwed up, it's impossible to like or find excuses for him. Alex H. --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Tue May 20 13:08:21 2003 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 08:08:21 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling OT: References: <20030519201751.27383.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3ECA1AB5.6132F0A2@erols.com> Joyeuse wrote: > > --- lorraine fletez-brant a icrit : > > > I also think the idea of making teachers' raises merit based by how many > > passing students they have is a really lousy one. > > Yeah, isn't that a nasty one? And on the outside it _looks_ so bright and > shiny, hard-nosed and bottom-line oriented: make the teacher responsible for > teaching, right? I might even go along with it if there were some way to make > the parents responsible for parenting... > Except that the teaching profession makes institutional claims that what they do involves some kind of special and highly replicable technique that transcends mere pedagogy; they can teach a dog to read. And there is some evidence that a great teacher can teach an average student to outperform his peers. This is sort of a put up or shut up thing. On the other hand, this also looks to me like a golden incentive to test fraud, which we have also seen. --------________--------________-------- From dave at klech.net Tue May 20 14:43:25 2003 From: dave at klech.net (Dave Klecha) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 08:43:25 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Nuptials Message-ID: Saturday at around 1pm EDT, I married my longtime love Tarri in a beautiful, seemingly ultra-speedy ceremony at St. Stephen's Church in East Grand Rapids, MI. And no, we won't be going on a honeymoon. We'll be moving her down to our new place in Bloomington, IN tomorrow, right after I get her enrolled in the DoD's dependents program. We will be taking a vacation in August to Toronto, to include WorldCon, so long as she can find a job that will be cooperative. And no, there isn't anything I should be doing right now. :) Dave --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Tue May 20 14:41:37 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 08:41:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030520010819.031fbe10@pop3.sff.net> References: <006b01c31e88$def835a0$03412904@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030520083613.02e0eb70@mail.iqcisp.com> At 01:10 AM 5/20/2003 -0400, Patricia A. Swan wrote: >He has Borderline Personality Disorder. The list diagnosed him about >two years using the diagnostic criteria that Diane E. looked up at >work, and Lois confirmed that Tien was indeed written as a classic >textbook case of the disorder. I did a web search last week when this most recently came up, and I couldn't find a useful-to-me BPD definition on the sites I looked at. Part of this may be that the sites had a "if you suspect you have BPD and want to get help" orientation. Naturally enough, and very socially useful, but that tends to mask resemblances to Tien. Because his cardinal emotional trait was that by definition nothing was his fault, ever; therefore, no reason for him to want to change. Louann --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Tue May 20 14:47:57 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 08:47:57 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: The third way In-Reply-To: <20030520072416.91584.qmail@web80010.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.2.1.1.1.20030507104621.02df95c0@mail.iqcisp.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030520084404.02e05740@mail.iqcisp.com> > >Louann Miller wrote:Yeah. Sometimes phrased as a >statement that the only unpardonable sin is >despair. Now THAT is a real p*sser when one is simultaneously a seriously >practicing Episcopalian and an unmedicated chronic depressive. At 12:24 AM 5/20/2003 -0700, Michele Cox wrote: >I don't think chemical imbalance counts, myself. Fighting a life-long >battle with your own neurochemistry is not anything any God I am on >speaking terms with will condemn, win or lose. Peace be -- Michele Oh, yeah. I understand that now. (The conflict has become irrelevant for other reasons.) Certainly my church-based counselor understood it then. She was the one who suggested drug therapy after several months of cognitive 'talk' therapy didn't help as much as it should have. But at the time I (mis)applied that doctrine to interpret myself as sinful -- in that biochemical state I could've misapplied any doctrine -- and it added an extra twist to the knife. Louann, feeling much better now. --------________--------________-------- From swartell at cas.org Tue May 20 15:18:36 2003 From: swartell at cas.org (Sue Wartell) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 10:18:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Nuptials Message-ID: <200305201418.h4KEIarC008230@srv01.cas.org> Congratulations! Best wishes for a life together filled with peace and joy and many books. Sue, in Columbus where it is pouring, again --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Tue May 20 15:35:46 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:35:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030520143546.60147.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mandos a icrit : > > Bothari - Killed due to Miles meddling. Bothari accepted his own death as a form of atonement. I think that once he discovered that Elena Visconti was abord the ship, he would have found some way to put himself in her path. > Elena - Emotionally scarred to the point where she cannot bear to remember > her father no return to her home world. I think Elena's own curiosity about her mother would have led her to the truth eventually. That would certainly have been better than the brutal shock combined with Bothari's death, but see my comment above--that might also have happened eventually. And, in the end, was Elena better off being lied to? Elena already hated Barrayar when she left. And it's already been pointed that she did go back, and did come to some kind of peace with both parents. > Mark - Hounded by Miles while making himself a life to the point where he > tried to steal a portion of the Dendarii in order to prove himself. Oh, come on now...Mark was _not_ hounded by Miles, except in his own imagination. Miles quite deliberately handed him a credit chit at the end of BiA and left him alone to find himself. It was Mark who came back, of his own free will, to the Dendarii. Miles never attempted to contact him at all in the time between BiA and Mirror Dance. > Countless unnamed people who died in battles. Miles was a military commander, and those "countless people" were soldiers and mercenaries who signed up for the risks. Those deaths properly weighed on his conscience, but in no way can they be compared to the blatant and inexcusable emotional harm Tien did to Ekaterin, who had _not_ signed up for such abuse (unless you count agreeing to marriage as tacit acceptance of abuse, but as a newlywed I find that pretty abhorrent. :-) > If anything Tien only hurt one person, who recovered, Ekaterin recovered because Tien _died_ and thus stopped abusing her. Yes, she was leaving on her own, but Tien is the sort who would have pushed and pushed and probably stalked her, making recovery much more difficult. > can the same be said > of Miles. Hm...people who have recovered, let's see: Elena...happily married, enjoys her career, has made peace with her past, even occasionally visits her mother. Check. Mark...working through therapy, now has a family life, personal wealth, and positive romantic prospects. Check. Galeni...successful ImpSec career, impending happy marriage, has come to grips with past ghosts. Check. Joy ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Tue May 20 15:44:33 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:44:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: math In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030518191813.03f6a2a0@pop3.sff.net> Message-ID: <20030520144433.74671.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> Meg Justus wrote: > >But then I was taught to quilt, and, boy, am I glad that some of that > >geometry stuck. I use it on a weekly basis these days. Who'd a thunk > >it. and then "Patricia A. Swan" replied > Some of it was helped with a business math course I took at > the local tech school. She was teaching us how to calculate simple > interest (I=prt), and taught how to solve it as an algebraic equation, and > Some of the other skills for math and logic didn't click > until after I'd computerized in 1984 and had started working with batch > files and programing languages In other words, once math became a useful tool for attaining a real goal, it was suddenly comprehensible. This happened to me, too...math for math's sake never appealed to me, but give me something to _do_ with it, and hey, what a great tool! If it had been presented to me in high school like that, I might have been able to do more with it. Joy ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Tue May 20 15:47:41 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:47:41 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling OT: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030520144741.4452.qmail@web12306.mail.yahoo.com> --- lorraine fletez-brant a icrit : > (Heck, I wanted to be a horse when I was 7. _I_ wanted to be a tap-dancing missionary. (It's a long story...) Joy ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Tue May 20 15:56:24 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:56:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: Education - math In-Reply-To: <3EC901E4.4665.299DE38@localhost> Message-ID: <20030520145624.64606.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> --- jparish at siue.edu a icrit : > Joyeuse wrote: > > > "Higher" maths _are_ virtually useless to anyone not going into a > > technical field. > > May I ask why you chose to put quotes around the word "higher"? > Horror quotes, perhaps? Oh, no, actually, it was just for emphasis. Higher maths, such as calculus, trigonometry, etc., as opposed to lower(?) maths, such as geometry, algebra, etc. > And more's the pity. Tone-deaf people probably never feel the loss of > Beethoven and Bach. Well, classical music isn't _useful_ either. But it's a lot easier to appreciate for its own sake than an equation. Joy ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Tue May 20 16:00:03 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:00:03 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030520150003.31549.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> --- Michael R N Dolbear a icrit : > I understand (W W Sawyer) that quadratic equations got included in so the > concept that an equation could have more than one solution might be > presented to the students. Really? That was never brought up at all, in any of my math classes. I never did find out, and was too shy to ask, in those days, what the darn things were for, except for putting in textbooks and on exams. > Do you understand "marginal tax rate" ? If not such defects of social > security as "poverty trap" are going to be a closed book. No. But if I need to, I can look both terms up. A math class 15 years ago is not going to change that necessity. Joy ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Tue May 20 16:01:31 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:01:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Re: English Grammar In-Reply-To: <20030520005614.25814.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030520150131.78210.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> --- Raye Johnsen a icrit : > I absolutely LOATHE the use of the word 'drug' as the > past tense of 'drag'. The past tense of 'drag' is > 'dragged'. Heh. It seems to be a midwestern usage--I never heard it until I started visiting friends in Illinois. Aaron, from St. Louis, uses it too, and I usually counter it by replying, "No one drugged you, you were entirely lucid and came of your own free will." Joy ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Tue May 20 16:05:10 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:05:10 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: Education - math In-Reply-To: <20030520015154.GF1173@chubb.wattle.id.au> Message-ID: <20030520150510.45223.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lucy Chubb a icrit : > I'm not a mathematician, but don't regret any of the higher maths that I > did. Sorry, I have to say I hugely regret the useless math class I took in college. It was a required course for all undergrads, and was referred to as "Math for Poets." Entirely useless, "taught" by an egotistial sexist jerk, and I was _paying_ my own d*mn money (and still am, as the loan statements arrive) to be distracted by this drivel, when I had degree-related stuff I should have been working on. OTOH, this probably doesn't count as higher maths! Joy ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Tue May 20 16:08:15 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:08:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: English Grammar In-Reply-To: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F53702A7C9AB@PICO.staff.vuw.ac . nz> Message-ID: <20030520150815.75135.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tracy MacShane a icrit : > However, I certainly know what it's like to have one's pet peeve tweaked > - just get me on the topic of apostrophes... Ooh! The its/it's dichotomy! I HATE seeing those misused! > I think "whom" is an extremely useful word, which shouldn't > be allowed to die out. People think it's complicated, to learn when to use who and when to use whom--but really, it's no more complicated than the difference between he and him! Joy, grammar nerd ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Tue May 20 16:11:13 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:11:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: How do you know? In-Reply-To: <35.38325a35.2bfaec6f@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030520151113.75675.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> --- CatMtn at aol.com a icrit : > > Joyeuse wrote: > But if you never study them at all, how do you inow you don't have some > hidden talent for the subject? If I am forced to study a subject, I will be immensely put off by it, and thus will never discover if I have a hidden talent for it. Joy ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Tue May 20 16:12:10 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:12:10 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Math In-Reply-To: <11.11880225.2bfaf520@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030520151210.75863.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> > Jim Parrish wrote: > > > Learn the why, not the how; then > > you're doing mathematics. Sigh. If only. I was actually pretty good at geometric proofs, once I started ignoring the teacher and reading the text book, but I never did find out what the darn things were _for_. Joy ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Tue May 20 16:19:26 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:19:26 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030520151926.82213.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mandos Mitchinson a icrit : > it worries me that if people are willing to judge a man based on > such a narrow viewpoint then there is a good chance people will make the > same judgements in real life. If I walked into someone's house and heard a person speaking as rudely to their spouse as Tien spoke to Ekaterin, I wouldn't be too slow to judge that person as rude and insensitive...and I think I'd be justified. Joy ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Tue May 20 16:25:07 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:25:07 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: average age of reading In-Reply-To: <087301c31e84$d1a0d280$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <20030520152507.2156.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> --- Paula Lieberman a icrit re: average age of reading: > It's, an, er, -mathematical- description.... Yes, I know, I was being sardonic. :-) I wasn't criticizing your use of the term, but I'm not sure such a study exists for homeschoolers, or how meaningful one would be, largely because they want to get on with the process of educating their kids, rather than take time out to compare them to other kids. I have always hated the whole "average" business when dealing with education anyway. We can add up and divide all we want, but the straight numbers do not take into account all of the variables that touch on whether or not a given child learns to read at a given age. Joy ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Tue May 20 16:28:12 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:28:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Re: Consequences and Mercy In-Reply-To: <20030519.213557.5837.130693@webmail10.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <20030520152812.37881.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kirsten Edwards a icrit : > > We know from Ekaterin's testimony that Tien fell deeply short > of the "putting into action" side of atonement, even if we're > willing to stipulate that, off the page, Tien was chock full > of remorse. Yes indeed. To quote a conversation I often had with a student of mine: Student: I'm sorry! Me: Then don't keep _doing_ it! (Where "it" refers to any number of random behaviors.) Joy ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com Tue May 20 16:41:35 2003 From: lady_isabeau13 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Joyeuse?=) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:41:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030520154135.6270.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mandos Mitchinson a icrit : > So Nikki is aware his parents may be having problems, how does this relate > to who paid for a holiday and some apparently stolen generosity? Completely aside from Tien's lie of omission, children should be encouraged to know from whom good things flow, so they can learn to appropriately express gratitude. Did Uncle Hugo get a thank-you note from Nikki? > Many people who marry young emotionally abuse each other, and from personal > experiance it can be a two way street. Being cold and unresponsive is just Ekaterin didn't _need_ to be cold and unresponsive until her attempts at responses were so violently rejected. > All I see is two people abusing each other without realising it and neither > having the strength or courage to confront the other person about the > problems. Ekaterin hiding behind her image of a Barrayaran wife and her > mothers "be a stone advise", while Tien stumbles around ruining his career > without realising it. Again, Ekaterin didn't need to hide behind her defenses until Tien made some form of defense necessary. > > > Lots of other people get stresses of being in debt, and don't act > > like Tien did. > > And lots of people do. Thats what makes life so damn interesting. Interesting, maybe, but not liveable if one has to live with those who do (act like Tien under stress of debt). Ekaterin's only fault lay in sticking around and putting up with him for so long . Joy ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse at yahoo.fr gratuite et en frangais ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Tue May 20 16:51:58 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 10:51:58 -0500 Subject: [LMB] The price of infinity OT: In-Reply-To: <3EC9A721.9689.21858B@localhost> References: <081201c31e76$427eb440$060d4b43@LAPTOP> <3EC9A721.9689.21858B@localhost> Message-ID: <20030520155158.GD5928@fireopal.org> On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 03:55:13AM -0500, jparish at siue.edu wrote: > introducing a new number, called i, and decreeing that i.i = -1. From > that point on, the usual laws of algebra and arithmetic are applied, and > nothing too bizarre occurs. IIRC (college memories...), doesn't i end up having a practical real-world use? I thought it ended up being used working with AC electricity - but all the standard forms end up with an even number of i terms in the end, but it has useful effects that map to the real world on the way? -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Tue May 20 17:02:29 2003 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:02:29 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Nuptials References: <200305201418.h4KEIarC008230@srv01.cas.org> Message-ID: <3ECA5195.4F55BC97@erols.com> Many, many congratulations. May you find, as I have, that marriage is full of the joys you anticipate, and the amazing, wonderful joys that you never thought of! --------________--------________-------- From timothybil at comcast.net Tue May 20 17:10:00 2003 From: timothybil at comcast.net (Tim Neumann) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:10:00 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: FDA In-Reply-To: <33.38d421ea.2bfa5b13@aol.com> Message-ID: > On Behalf Of CatMtn at aol.com > > Nicholas Rosen writes: > > > Being cautious can be dangerous. If I cautiously choose not > > to take an experimental medication, I may die of a disease > > which that medication could have cured. If I do take it, I may > > be poisoned by the medication. Who should decide which > > risk I should undergo, I or the FDA? Whose life is at stake? > > How about thalidomide? Are you really sorry your mother > was prevented from > taking this anti-nausea drug? > > Mary > -- IIRC the person in charge of the final decision on Thalidomide broke FDA rules by not approving it, since it had acquired all the checkmarks needed. She just didn't feel right about it. Luckily, she was right. Tim N. --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Tue May 20 17:01:24 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:01:24 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: math In-Reply-To: <20030520144433.74671.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030518191813.03f6a2a0@pop3.sff.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030520105808.02f1b010@mail.iqcisp.com> At 04:44 PM 5/20/2003 +0200, Joyeuse wrote: > > Some of the other skills for math and logic didn't click > > until after I'd computerized in 1984 and had started working with batch > > files and programing languages > >In other words, once math became a useful tool for attaining a real goal, it >was suddenly comprehensible. This happened to me, too...math for math's sake >never appealed to me, but give me something to _do_ with it, and hey, what a >great tool! If it had been presented to me in high school like that, I might >have been able to do more with it. Curious parallelisms we have around here. I was reading "The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature" by Matt Ridley last night. He mentioned a situation a lot like this. A bunch of students were given a logic problem involving using a set of rules plus information on the top side of a set of cards to deduce what was on the bottom side of said cards. They found it very difficult. But when a problem with exactly the same rule set was cast as a social problem -- not "what's under the card" but "is this person hiding a violation of the social rules" they could do it easily. Apparently we aren't as much mental generalists as we think we are; a lot of our intelligence is still in the form of special-purpose modules. Louann --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Tue May 20 17:13:04 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 09:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030520090717.Y709-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Tue, 20 May 2003, Mandos D Shadowspawn Esq wrote: > Tien is not the only abuser in this relationship. No? > Abuse comes in all forms, and completly shutting off your emotions from > someone is just as much a form of abuse as Tiens manipulations. 1. Most of the time, people completely shut their emotions off from other people as a response to the way that person is treating them. It rarely happens out of the blue for no good reason. It's a defense mechanism. 2. You speak as though you think a person has a RIGHT to the contents of another person's head. This most emphatically is a privilege, not a right. If someone has decided they are not going to share their most personal property of all--their feelings--with you, then that's their prerogative, and there probably is a very good reason for it, too. 3. NO ONE is obliged to express their emotions to someone who belittles them. EVER. ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Tue May 20 17:16:01 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:16:01 -0500 Subject: [LMB] The price of infinity OT: In-Reply-To: <20030520155158.GD5928@fireopal.org> References: <3EC9A721.9689.21858B@localhost> Message-ID: <3ECA0E71.1608.1B560A0@localhost> On 20 May 2003 at 10:51, Scott Raun wrote: > IIRC (college memories...), doesn't i end up having a practical > real-world use? I thought it ended up being used working with AC > electricity - but all the standard forms end up with an even number of > i terms in the end, but it has useful effects that map to the real > world on the way? Oh, certainly. It's also a necessity for quantum mechanics (and, again, the i's cancel out in all observable quantities). But that certainly wasn't predictable when it first emerged! Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Tue May 20 17:16:01 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:16:01 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Education - math In-Reply-To: <20030520145624.64606.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3EC901E4.4665.299DE38@localhost> Message-ID: <3ECA0E71.16642.1B5611D@localhost> I asked: > May I ask why you chose to put quotes around the word "higher"? > Horror quotes, perhaps? Joyeuse replied: > Oh, no, actually, it was just for emphasis. Higher maths, such as > calculus, trigonometry, etc., as opposed to lower(?) maths, such as > geometry, algebra, etc. Unfortunately, it gives the opposite impression. "Horror quotes" indicate that the word in quotes, though commonly used, is not, in the writer's opinion, appropriate. They're roughly equivalent to inserting the words "so-called". You mention in another post that the misuse of apostrophes is one of your pet peeves. The misuse of quotation marks is one of mine. In essence, in my view, quotation marks point to the word as word, rather than to the meaning of the word. You put quotes around direct speech, indicating that the precise words are being used; you don't put them around indirect speech, since you are presenting the speaker's meaning. You put quotes around words which you're about to define, for similar reasons. And you put horror quotes around words in order to refuse to commit to their literal meaning. The last was the only viable interpretation I could see, in this case. Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Tue May 20 17:25:05 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 09:25:05 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: AND Jim's toe Message-ID: From: "Divya" : Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:04:07 +0530 Hi, Divya, Jim, and all! Yes, it was a wonderful description. I do now feel like a deaf person to whom the music of Tschaikovsky is being described :) Maybe someday, in my great spare time , I'll start over from the beginning... >Learn the why, not the how; then you're doing mathematics. >>like the three musicians I named, were creators of beauty. "Euclid alone >>has looked on beauty bare", said St. Vincent Millay - but she was >>wrong. If you could see what I see... I weep. I honestly do. >Thank you for this post. I think your students are a lucky bunch.< yes, I suspect so too, Jim! Someone who has a true passion for the subject can make the topic alive for students and inspire them to WANT to understand it. When *I* think of Leibnitz, I think of his theory on monadology (Monadologie). I didn't realize that he was a mathematician, too. It shouldn't surprise me - most of those guys were active in so many fields, the breadth of their knowledge and abilities was enormous. On the topic of your "flamboyant" getting ready for bed, I got a good laugh picturing you scampering about the bedroom, bits of clothing flying here and there.... Good luck with your toe healing! That hurts like h*ll! As I've related before, my terminal clumsiness gives me a lovely mottled look. Right now I'm sporting two green shins and a few patches on arms and shoulders! >On a related subject, I'd like to recommend a book I'm re-reading just now: _A BEAUTIFUL MIND, by Sylvia Nasar. It's compelling stuff. The Russell Crowe movie didn't do justice to the book. It bowdlerizes, waters down the extraordinary journey Nasar takes the reader through, replacing emotion with sentimentality, tragedy with bathos. Worst of all, the movie doesn't even mention the extraordinary impact John Nash's work had, and its applications in fields ranging from evolution theory to economics. Other than all the dithering about code-breaking, there's absolutely no attempt to show just what Nash's genius was all about - not even an explanation of the Nash equilibrium. It's incredibly annoying to me.< I got Frank the book for Christmas the year the film was out. We wanted, then, to read the book first and then see the movie. What a disappointment the movie was in comparison! It was so fascinating to read, as well, about the lives of people that he was active with during Nash's early professional years. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Also incredibly well done by Nasar was Nash's drift in and out of schizophrenia. I read that Nash hopes that his many years of inability due to the schizophrenia just might put him back at the spot of a younger mathematician, and so may be able to yet come up with more insights. Fascinating thought, and I surely wish him well. Lorraine - Lil' Horned Hopper _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Tue May 20 17:34:49 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 09:34:49 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Nuptials Message-ID: "Dave Klecha" brings the happy news: Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 08:43:25 -0500 >Saturday at around 1pm EDT, I married my longtime love Tarri in a beautiful, seemingly ultra-speedy ceremony at St. Stephen's Church in East Grand Rapids, MI. < Oh, Dave! Congratulations to you and Tarri! May your marriage be as full of joy as your wedding, laughter be the foundation of your relationship, and companionship and love be your safe harbor! Best wishes, Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com Tue May 20 17:37:07 2003 From: lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com (lorraine fletez-brant) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 09:37:07 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Susan's cat OT: Message-ID: Dear Susan - this has been such a hard year for you. I can't believe that you must bear yet another loss. You'll be in my thoughts this afternoon. Many hugs... Lorraine _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Tue May 20 17:52:35 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 09:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) In-Reply-To: <20030520143546.60147.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030520094036.S709-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Tue, 20 May 2003, [iso-8859-1] Joyeuse wrote: > Ekaterin recovered because Tien _died_ and thus stopped abusing > her. Yes, she was leaving on her own, but Tien is the sort who > would have pushed and pushed and probably stalked her, making > recovery much more difficult. I've mentioned before that I have an ex who is rather like Tien. He is one of the reasons that I use a nom de plume on the net. I left him in 1998, but he hid from his *own lawyer* in order to keep me married to him. My lawyer would call his lawyer who would complain to my lawyer that she couldn't find him. We think he ran back to HK for a while. The divorce should have taken a few months tops--we had no children, no house, and one car, which he had before we were married and I didn't want, as I have never been a driver. He tried to prove joint ownership of my *cat*; he tried to steal an old cat tag that had both our names on it as 'proof'. Luckily my cat was mentioned as my property in a previous divorce decree (from The Gay Ex). He also refused to return my lingerie photos so I kept his extremely valuable family heirloom engagement ring. In 2000 I finally got my divorce (by threatening to do whatever it is that you do where you separate the actual divorce from the property settlement). However, to this very day I still get occasional emails from him and his friends and they always used to mention things I'd posted to mailinglists or websites that he wasn't on, so I know he malfoy-surfs on a fairly regular basis. He has also made a point of showing up at local SF cons even though he hates science fiction. It's rather amusing except that he once threatened to hunt me down and shoot me. He'll never do it; he doesn't even talk to me face to face, just gives me dirty looks, and the incidences of seeing him/getting email from him has gone way down in the past year. But yes, people like that are stalkers. And god help you if you ever have a child with one. ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From pam at gotcher.us Tue May 20 17:54:45 2003 From: pam at gotcher.us (Pam) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:54:45 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien References: <006b01c31e88$def835a0$03412904@earthlink.net> <5.2.1.1.1.20030520083613.02e0eb70@mail.iqcisp.com> Message-ID: <019f01c31ef0$84941f30$6c3a0144@Laptop> Louann wrote . Naturally enough, and very socially useful, but that tends to mask resemblances to Tien. Because his cardinal emotional trait was that by definition nothing was his fault, ever; therefore, no reason for him to want to change. But that's one of the traits of BPD - and one of the reasons it's so hard to "get well." Pam --------________--------________-------- From lqmiller at iqcisp.com Tue May 20 18:01:39 2003 From: lqmiller at iqcisp.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:01:39 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Komarr: If Things Were Different: Was Tien In-Reply-To: <20030520154135.6270.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20030520110230.02f14520@mail.iqcisp.com> (I realize a lot of us see ourselves or people we know in one or the other Vorsoisson, so it's very hard not to have the debate turn personal. But it's also very much on-topic, so I want to continue tackling this while attempting to put as little 'side' as possible on the issues.) At 05:41 PM 5/20/2003 +0200, Joyeuse wrote: > --- Mandos Mitchinson a icrit : > > > Many people who marry young emotionally abuse each other, and from personal > > experiance it can be a two way street. Being cold and unresponsive is just > >Ekaterin didn't _need_ to be cold and unresponsive until her attempts at >responses were so violently rejected. > > > All I see is two people abusing each other without realising it and neither > > having the strength or courage to confront the other person about the > > problems. Ekaterin hiding behind her image of a Barrayaran wife and her > > mothers "be a stone advise", while Tien stumbles around ruining his career > > without realising it. > >Again, Ekaterin didn't need to hide behind her defenses until Tien made some >form of defense necessary. Apart from Tien himself, the only character in canon who would agree with the idea that Ekaterin was 'an abuser' in the relationship is ... Ekaterin. And here's the reason I disagree with her. Both Ekaterin and Tien were vaguely aware that things were going badly in their relationship; neither one was completely aware. But Ekaterin was the only one who was trying to fix the emotional problem. Her behavior changes came in response to the things Tien seemed to want from her. He became jealous of men she knew; she stopped having male friends. He became jealous of her female friends; she cut those ties, too. He changed jobs; she packed up and moved. He angrily rejected her advice about how to deal with the family's joint problem of his and Nikki's health; she stopped giving the advice. It's true, in a good marriage both partners share their emotions and ideas; 'being a stone' blocks that off. But if Ekaterin had shared more, she would have gotten more abuse. Tien only wanted a free exchange of emotions if the emotional message was "you're perfect and I agree with everything you say." The plot (in both senses) of "Komarr" is also relevant here. Tien would have said he suffered two undeserved strokes of bad luck -- having a family connection to an Auditor that coincidentally led the investigation straight to his district office, and having a second Auditor (had he but known) with the hots for his wife. But I think he was wrong there, too. The world still would have blown up in his face, although a bit slower, if both those points had gone differently. So, alternate "Komarr." Point of departure: Vorthys is not an Auditor at all, having declined the appointment because he was recuperating from the septic bite of an Alien Space Bat (rec.history.what-if joke) at the time Gregor offered it to him. Instead the engineering expert among the Auditors is a Lord VorGraff (grin) of similar age and qualifications. With no family connections to draw him, the Alternate Auditor (Miles in tow) doesn't come near Serifosa; instead he makes his on-planet headquarters in the capital at Solstice. He and Miles wind up in official accommodations, instead of enjoying rented beds and home cooking. The rest of the investigation proceeds as planned. This loses the revered author some of her Aristotelian unity of place and cast of characters, but not permanently. The identification of bits o' dead Dr. Radovas in the wreckage a few days later (Chapter 6, original time line) would have drawn the Auditors' attention to Serifosa, and to Tien's organization, nearly as quickly. If anything, the Alternate Auditor and Miles might have landed on the office staff harder for going straight into adversarial mode without the interlude of "invited guests who just want to understand a representative section of the terraforming program" first. It's very possible that Miles' nose for personalities would have sussed out Tien's guilty knowledge at first sight and led to an uncomfortable conversation either with or initially without fast-penta. I don't see Tien holding out long under interrogation. He had no particular loyalty to the people who gave him bribes anyway. He might have tried for Imperial Witness status at that point as well, but I doubt he'd have gotten it and if he had they certainly would have confirmed all his freely given statements under fast-penta. If he did get immunity from accessory-to-murder charges, it might not include immunity from the crime of taking bribes. Even if all his felonies were forgiven him at the government level, he would have lost his job -- and the health coverage for himself and Nikki that went with it -- with little likelihood of getting another with comparable benefits. And the commercial loan he'd gotten would still need paying off, and the disease would still be progressing in both him and Nikki. He might be able to keep Ekaterin living under the same roof with him by the threat of keeping Nikki away from her if she left him, but she'd know what he'd done. Any remaining respect she might have had for him would have been gone forever. Much the same trajectory if Tien had escaped Miles' eye for weak points when he and his fellow auditor arrived at Serifosa. They still would have been hot to interview all of Radovas' co-workers and friends, and they would have had the idea in mind that some of the mysterious gear found in the wreckage of the soletta might have come through Radovas' channels. The conspirators would have panicked and run just as they did in the original plot. It's very unlikely Tien would have been present to choke to death in his empty breath mask, but I'm sure they would have continued their original plan of sending proof of his crimes through the mail as a distraction. They might well have blown up the commercial station and themselves with it if Ekaterin hadn't been on hand to stop it. None of that would have stopped Tien's choices from coming home to roost and ruining Ekaterin and Nikki as well as him. Miles would have hunted down Tien (in his capacity as a terrorist dupe and bribe-taker) if he'd never set eyes on the lovely Ekaterin. The only difference is that Ekaterin wouldn't have had a safety net to see her and Nikki safely and healthily back to Barrayar. Louann --------________--------________-------- From jmjm at sprint.ca Tue May 20 18:04:09 2003 From: jmjm at sprint.ca (D Mitchell) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:04:09 -0400 Subject: [LMB] TWA: Baz drafted. What am I missing? References: <20030520150815.75135.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3ECA6009.DAABF37E@sprint.ca> Dear Group, I hope its ok if I ask for "help" re plot details. I am just into Chapter 9 of tWA; my first foray into the series. Miles has just "drafted" 'scaredy cat' Baz Jesek. But there are some things about this scene I dont get. Can you help?: Q. Why in the oath does Miles not want to tell Baz his (Miles) title? Q. Why does Miles not want Bothari to know of this drafting of Baz? As I recall Bothari was aghast when he found out Miles had sworn Mayhew right? Q. What does Miles mean when he says to Baz at the end of the swearing in: "Your home. For what its worth." <----- ???? Baz replies "Was that real?" Miles continue:"Well-its a little irregular. But from what I read of our history, I cant help feeling its closer to the original than the official version." (Is this last bit making fun of maybe a chaotic, disorganized Barrayar in the past? That social structure/organization of Barrayar society long ago was established 'on the fly', rules made up as they went,...) Thanks for your help, Doug --------________--------________-------- From selene at earthlink.net Tue May 20 18:05:09 2003 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 10:05:09 -0700 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: It's Time Message-ID: <3ECA6045.6A86B5D@earthlink.net> Whoso objects to your dropping an OT: marker on this topic is a heartless cad. [[[sympathy hugs]]] I've never managed to let go of pet ashes yet. We make sick jokes about Sheila being "dog in a drum" but with a bit of pain, even 5+ years later. Susan Fox-Davis. --------________--------________-------- From Laciel1 at aol.com Tue May 20 18:11:34 2003 From: Laciel1 at aol.com (Laciel1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:11:34 -0400 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: It's Time Message-ID: <49237415.2586B4DB.0017EFE3@aol.com> Cominh out of lurkinh for a bit: I also have Kitty-in-a-box, and Lewis-in-a-box. They are two dearly loved cats whose ashes are in -surpise- boxes on my book case. -Laciel In a message dated 5/20/2003 12:05:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, selene at earthlink.net writes: > > > Whoso objects to your dropping an OT: marker on this topic is a > heartless cad. > [[[sympathy hugs]]] > > I've never managed to let go of pet ashes yet. We make sick jokes about > Sheila being "dog in a drum" but with a bit of pain, even > 5+ years > later. > > Susan Fox-Davis. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 20 18:19:05 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:19:05 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien Message-ID: <125.21ed7a6b.2bfbbd89@aol.com> Ooops! I forgot that one (and I'm sure, several others). Thanks, Mary > And he verbally and emotionally abused his wife, accused her unfairly, > and ended up pushing her into situations where she could not have > friends or outside contacts while living far from home. > > Laura G. > --------________--------________-------- From michele_cox at sbcglobal.net Tue May 20 18:22:57 2003 From: michele_cox at sbcglobal.net (Michele Cox) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 10:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: The third way In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030520084404.02e05740@mail.iqcisp.com> Message-ID: <20030520172257.15648.qmail@web80004.mail.yahoo.com> Louann Miller wrote: Louann, feeling much better now. I'm so glad. Clinical depression, like mosquitoes, is one of the things that makes me ponder the omnipotence of God. Peace be! Michele --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 20 18:31:38 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:31:38 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien Message-ID: <16e.1ecf1fb0.2bfbc07a@aol.com> Mandos writes: > His time begins to run out, he is likely to start suffering from thesymptoms > any year now, he gets offered a large amount of cash. Finally the big > chance > is here but it is a little illegal, he takes it. He takes another risk, one > that frequently pays off, but with very little experiance and knowledge he > makes a mistake and ends up worse off than before. All for his son. > > It is simple for us to judge him knowing the outcome and having none of the > stresses on ourselves. You sound like a college prof I had once who justified Macbeth's actions by saying he did it for his children, to leave them a kingdom. I thought it was crazy fifty years ago; I still do. If Tien was so interested in what happened to Nikki, why didn't he just take the bribe money, go to a medical facility under an assumed name (he probably could have just dropped the "Vor" and been reasonably incognito), and have himself and Nikki treated? Not that I approve of taking bribe money, but if he hadn't tried to increase it (and I gather he had enough to get the treatment for both of them with just the original amount of bribe money, but he wanted to come out of it rich) he would not have gotten himself into such a mess. He would have lost his honor, but that apparently didn't mean too much to him, anyway. Mary --------________--------________-------- From zafaran at sff.net Tue May 20 18:41:55 2003 From: zafaran at sff.net (Patricia A. Swan) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:41:55 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) In-Reply-To: <20030520094036.S709-100000@shell.rawbw.com> References: <20030520143546.60147.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030520133303.020228d8@pop3.sff.net> At 09:52 AM 5/20/2003 -0700, Azalais Malfoy wrote: >It's rather amusing except that he once threatened to hunt me >down and shoot me. He'll never do it; he doesn't even talk to me >face to face, just gives me dirty looks, and the incidences of >seeing him/getting email from him has gone way down in the past >year. But yes, people like that are stalkers. And god help you >if you ever have a child with one. > >~malfoy Yep. My sister like that has progressed to Felony Stalking Charges this time round. She's like my Dad (and Tien), and all three are Borderline Personality Disorder. Manipulative (in spades--and they make the people they are manipulating wonder if they {the manipulatee} wonder if *they* aren't the crazy one), abusive, can't hold a job, can't handle money. BPD is hell on the rest of the family. Watching Tien manipulate and abuse Ekaterine was *so* familiar, very much "Life with Father". Pat in North Carolina -- * Patricia A. Swan <*> zafaran at dnet.net Ebay ID: zafaranswan * * Six Swans Design http://members.fortunecity.com/zafaran * --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 20 18:42:10 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:42:10 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Navigation Message-ID: <143.11784a5b.2bfbc2f2@aol.com> > -- Paula Lieberman wrote: > Cars travel on one dimensional roads on two dimensional surfaces, airplane > travel in three dimension in ordinary operations.... I suspect Jump pilots > wouldn't be that wonderful as land car drivers! Planes and spacecraft > aren't constrained to one dimensional roads. Back when I was flying > around > the Front Range in Colorado, I could go places in a straight line, that > cars > would take hours to go to having to go up and down and around and via > switchbacks and such. > > Yes, I know. But haven't you learned from experience that a road map helps? And knowing what roads you want to take, and which exit from the freeway? Also, when we flew our own plane, I usually got stuck with navigating, in spite of the fact that he'd actually done it in the Navy. Mary --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Tue May 20 18:45:43 2003 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:45:43 -0400 Subject: [LMB] All Things Scottish...? References: <007801c3020d$df455840$768171cf@puter> <00e001c30216$6f3116d0$9debcacf@susan> <3E9AB3C6.697209AE@erols.com> Message-ID: <3ECA69C7.129C3BF8@erols.com> > Susan in Bellevue wrote: > > > There is a book named something like "How the scots invented the modern > > world" which I have seen, but not yet had a chance to read. Has anyone read > > it? > > I finally finished reading this. The first 100 pages are uninspired. The rest of the book is great. Especially for those of Scots ancestry, this is a must-read book. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 20 18:47:03 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:47:03 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Bureaucracy Message-ID: <1d2.a10c2ea.2bfbc417@aol.com> > Kirsten Edwards wrote: > > [**] Not likely, IMHO, but that's just because I'm cynical. Is > there *ever* a gov't program or bureacracy that ends? "Okay, > we basically solved the problem/aren't the only answer/are > no longer effective" let's close shop! Hah. There's even a play about this tendency, called "Two Blind Mice," about two old ladies who keep the "Bureau of Medicinal Herbs" open so they will have something to do. They make a ceremony of burning their paychecks, though, which I doubt the real-life bureaucrats ever do. Mary --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Tue May 20 18:58:13 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:58:13 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Nuptials References: Message-ID: <3ECA6C81.AC6C041F@marna.ca> Dave Klecha wrote: > > Saturday at around 1pm EDT, I married my longtime love Tarri in a > beautiful, seemingly ultra-speedy ceremony at St. Stephen's Church in > East Grand Rapids, MI. Excellent! Congratualtions to you both. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 20 19:06:45 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:06:45 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien Message-ID: <145.11d119f1.2bfbc8b5@aol.com> Mandos writes: > People hide lots of things from their partners. Some big, some small, some > should really be shared, but in Tiens marriage there was no one to share > the > problems with even if he had wanted to. While we know and love Ekaterin > from > Tiens point of view she was a woman he loved but she never shared her > feelings with him, why would he open up to her about his issues, > particularly when he thought he could solve them without her knowing. Of course she didn't tell him her feelings--he wasn't interested in hearing anything but praise for himself. If she expressed any concerns, he put her down cruelly. The situation sounded to me like he was more concerned about her opinion of him than about her and Nikki. This seemed to be a common thing in his life--he was too concerned about what people thought of him, and not concerned at all about people themselves. This usually has the opposite effect from what such people are trying for, which is being admired and respected. Miles also craves admiration and respect, but he wants to _earn_ them, unlike Tien. Can you imagine Tien giving up a new lightflyer to buy a com system for a Silvy Vale school? Even at thirty-five or so, while Miles did it at twenty-one or thereabout. And Miles doesn't ask that the school be named after him, either, or apparently even tell anyone what he's done (although I suspect he would have had to account for his expenditure to his parents, at least). Mary --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 20 19:09:13 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:09:13 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien Message-ID: <1a0.1522ceee.2bfbc949@aol.com> Mandos writes: > Your proof of this lack of relationship is that Tien's mother would not take > in Ekaterin and Nikki. > Maybe his mother didn't like Ekaterin, maybe there was an argument and She > didn't approve of the marriage. She may have been more than happy to take > in > Tien and Family, but not Tien's Widow and child. Oh, but on Barrayar it was customary for the widow and child to move in with the late husband's family. Either Tien was an embarrassment to his family, or he got his selfishness from his mother. Mary --------________--------________-------- From bhurt at spnz.org Tue May 20 19:29:14 2003 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:29:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] The price of infinity OT: In-Reply-To: <20030520155158.GD5928@fireopal.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 May 2003, Scott Raun wrote: > On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 03:55:13AM -0500, jparish at siue.edu wrote: > > introducing a new number, called i, and decreeing that i.i = -1. From > > that point on, the usual laws of algebra and arithmetic are applied, and > > nothing too bizarre occurs. > > IIRC (college memories...), doesn't i end up having a practical > real-world use? I thought it ended up being used working with AC > electricity - but all the standard forms end up with an even number of > i terms in the end, but it has useful effects that map to the real > world on the way? Yes. One huge use of standard "complex" numbers (more on that in a minute) is in frequency analysis. The short form: you can take a set of samples of an analog signal do a Fourier (pronounced For-ee-ay for those who don't know, and Euler is pronounced "Oiler") transform on them. This outputs a set of complex numbers- each complex number is a particular frequency (well, small range of frequencies). The real part is a measure of the amplitude, the strength of the signal. The imaginary part is a measure of the phase of the signal. So two signals that have the same amplitude can have different phases. Fourier tranforms (and variations like the Discrete Cosine Transform) are used all over the place in digital signal processing, audio and visual compression (to be specific, the JPEG, MPEG, and MP-3 compression algorithms all use variations of Fourier transforms), etc. Even more complex number systems are possible, and usefull. For example, there's one called 'quaternions' which assumes that -1 doesn't just have 1 square root, it has three- i, j, and k. These three numbers observe the rules that i*j = k, j*i = -k, i*k = j, k*i = -j, j*k = i, j*k = -i, and (of course) i*i = j*j = k*k = -1. This sounds deeply strange, except that a lot of physical modelling makes a lot more sense if expressed in quaterions than in old class x,y,z coordinates. Quaternions are used a lot in 3D models and rendering- that first person shoot you play probably uses quaternions. Of course, the study of quaternions lead into the invention/study of linear algebra. And I haven't even mention Galois (Gal-wah) fields yet. I've yet to meet a branch of mathematics that wasn't usefull in the real world- i.e. usefull to solving real problems. Which is why science is so heavily mathematic- if learning math is usefull for nothing else, it's necessary for learning science. Brian --------________--------________-------- From Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com Tue May 20 19:17:39 2003 From: Tom_Vinson at mpsisys.com (Tom Vinson) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:17:39 -0500 Subject: English Grammar (was: Re: [LMB] Ambitions) OT: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 May, Raye Johnsen noted: >But then again, maybe it would *take* a planetwide >dose of hallucinogens to affect the sort of change >Susan is talking about. that's "effect the sort of change" (assuming we're bringing the change about rather than simply modifying a change in process) The dragged/drug controversy reminds me of one of the old Pogo cartoons where he's running (against his will) for president. Since the reference is to the punchline I won't post it, but I'll try to find the date of the strip and the collection it appears in. Tom --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Tue May 20 19:26:39 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:26:39 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c31efd$5ba7f940$03412904@earthlink.net> > Tien is not the only abuser in this relationship. [snip] > Tien is without a doubt, insecure, unable to communicate, > solitary and fiscally moronic, however it still shows > through for me in the books that he > really does love and care for Ekaterin and Nikki. Where??? > Ekaterin walls him off, > ceases to care and shuts him out, Where do you see that? I see her agonizing over the whole situation. Even when she finally decides she has to leave, she's agonizing over it. This is not a woman who has ceased to care. If she had ceased to care, she could have walked out easily, without the agony. Chapter 7 - when she's making her decision "She sat now bent over, aching in every part of her body, up her back, her neck, inside and outside her head. In her heart." In chapter 9, when she's remembering Miles's story about the fall from the shuttle in Borders of Infinity, "How much would it have cost you, Captain Vorkosigan, to have opened your hands and deliberately let go?" Clearly choosing to leave is costing her dearly, just as Miles's pain over Beatrice's death, possibly more. and consider "She listened to his patterned litany with a sort of detached appreciation, like a torture victim, gone beyond pain unbeknownst, admiring the color of her own blood." Even in ACC we see her agonizing over what happened. She cared. Even after it's all over, after he's dead, it's hard for her to stop caring. What you see as her emotionally abusing him I see as her doing the bare minimum she had to do to survive. Malfoy wrote: > I've mentioned before that I have an ex who is rather like Tien. [snip] > And god help you if you ever have a child with one. Oh, yes, you've got that one right. For the sake of Ekaterin and especially Nikki, I have often been so grateful to Lois for writing the breath mask scene. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From bhurt at spnz.org Tue May 20 19:43:08 2003 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:43:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: The great mathematicians In-Reply-To: <3EC9A721.13767.2184EE@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 May 2003 jparish at siue.edu wrote: > I named, as the greatest mathematicians of history, Archimedes, > Newton, and Gauss. One of the problems of pre-1800 mathematics is how closely tied in with physics/engineering. > > George S. Vaughan commented: > > > The names that immediately sprang to mind to me were Gauss, Newton, > > Liebnitz, Wiles, Fermat himself, the Bernoullis, Euclid. Fermat actually wasn't that great of a mathematician. The only reason we remember him much at all is his "last theorem", which, for the record, wasn't his last. He had a real bad habit of doing things like that- sending mail off to various other mathematicians along the lines of "I have a fabulous proof of what you're woring on, and if you were at all smart you'd see it." He's basically remembered as a world-class putz. By the way, we're reasonably sure which proof he thought he had of his last theorem. It's clever, simple, and (unfortunately) wrong. Last I heard Wiles' proof still stands. Unfortunately, Wiles' proof depends upon a number of 20th century mathematics. Euler should definately be on the list. > > The three that I named were universal mathematicians; virtually every > branch of mathematics which *anyone* was working on in their time, > they worked on. The only others with comparable breadth who spring to > my mind are Euler and Henri Poincare' (though John von Neumann, my > pick for greatest mathematician of the 20th century, comes close). For the 20th Century, I'd also pick Godel, Turing, Alonzo Church, and Haskell Curry (although the last two are obscure unless you like functional programming languages). Brian --------________--------________-------- From pam at gotcher.us Tue May 20 19:34:49 2003 From: pam at gotcher.us (pam) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:34:49 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Nuptials In-Reply-To: <3ECA6C81.AC6C041F@marna.ca> References: <3ECA6C81.AC6C041F@marna.ca> Message-ID: <20030520183449.M85898@gotcher.us> Bravo, Dave!!!! Funny, isn't it, how the ceremony always seems so fast that you almost can't remember it? (Of course, the fact that mine was almost 40 years ago might contribute to that .) Pam Dave Klecha wrote: Saturday at around 1pm EDT, I married my longtime love Tarri in a beautiful, seemingly ultra-speedy ceremony at St. Stephen's Church in East Grand Rapids, MI. ------- --------________--------________-------- From mathews55 at msn.com Tue May 20 19:42:06 2003 From: mathews55 at msn.com (PAT MATHEWS) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:42:06 -0600 Subject: [LMB] It's Time Message-ID: Aw. Blessed be and may Da Kid rest in the arms of Bast. I didn't know about the nictating membrane or I'd have had a better clue to when to let my own girls go last winter. Sorry about your loss. >From: Susan Profit >Reply-To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >Subject: [LMB] It's Time >Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:53:28 -0700 (PDT) > >I decided last Friday that this week would be time to let Da Kid go. >He isn't eating enough, and while he doesn't complain, there are times >when I see the nictating membranes in the corner of his eye high >enough that it is a pain or anxiety response. The intercellular cancer >has begun to cause enough symptoms it is affecting his quality of life >negatively. > >So I called and set up an appointment to have him put to sleep >tomorrow around 3:30pm, my friend Kate will take him to the Bellevue >Humane Society and he will be cremated, his ashes returned to me. > >I'm going to have to do something soon about these ashes, five cats >(Lin Mei, Toofey, Musette, Miss Klibee and by next week Da Kid) and >one husband is getting to be a bit much. I will still have yearling >Attila left to comfort me. > > at }->- :} Tinne ;} Laughter Heals :D -<-{ at >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Tue May 20 19:39:53 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] RE: Nuptuals In-Reply-To: <200305201604.h4KG4Dr5021858@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Congratulations to Dave and Tarri. May your life together be long, filled with great communication, and a deep abiding love that lasts until your grandchildren (by birth or adoption) are embarrassed by it at their own weddings and beyond. at }->- :} Tinne ;} Laughter Heals :D -<-{ at --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue May 20 20:09:18 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:09:18 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: The great mathematicians In-Reply-To: References: <3EC9A721.13767.2184EE@localhost> Message-ID: <20030520190918.GA3601@ofb.net> On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 01:43:08PM -0500, Brian Hurt wrote: > > I named, as the greatest mathematicians of history, Archimedes, > > Newton, and Gauss. > One of the problems of pre-1800 mathematics is how closely tied in with > physics/engineering. Sentence. > For the 20th Century, I'd also pick Godel, Turing, Alonzo Church, and > Haskell Curry (although the last two are obscure unless you like > functional programming languages). Or if you've heard of Church's thesis, aka the Church-Turing thesis. David Hilbert and Bertrand Russel would be two more. Paul Erdos. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 20 20:12:05 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:12:05 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling References: <20030519103411.B61058-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <08d901c31f03$b54b26b0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Azalais Malfoy" > On Mon, 19 May 2003, Paula Lieberman wrote: > > > Math's involved in a lot of stuff -- someone mentioned geometry applied to > > doing quilting, for example. > > A lot of math teaching is bad, however. > > I never did get the hang of doing formal proofs in geometry and > almost failed it. > > However, I'm pretty good at pattern making for costuming, and > then one day I realized that even though I believed I suck at > geometry, I was actually doing really neat things with it. > > Something is wrong here. It's a matter of different people thinking differently -- compare e.g. the way that various of Lois' characters think. Ivan tend to do some straightforward thinking. Miles and Mark go for convoluted. Tien goes for being an incompetent wants-to-be-but-can't-quite-get-there-cover-his-ass type. Proofs appeal to certain personality types and apply to certain things, however.... Example.... Once upon a time, I was at MIT student. Prof. H. P. Greenspan, who that year or the year after was serving as that math department head, was teaching an applied math class I was taking. There was a math formulation dealing with some non-linear stuff, a shock wave if I recall correctly, he had written up on the board. "We're going to try something," he said. "There's no reason why this should work. There's no mathematical proof that this is legitimate to do. But's we're going to try it anyway." So, he applied a method which there was no -proof- that it was legitimate to do. And it worked.... " It's not something that's been proven by pure mathematicians to work. Perhaps in another fifty years there might be a proof for it. But, if you're working in industry, you need to get an answer -now-, not in fifty years. Solving this equation by using this method is cheating. But then, solving an equation by using ANY method, is cheating. If it works, use it!" Miles, wouldn't be a type for formal proofs -- something -working-, and within the constraints of what he considered allowable, would be sufficient justification. The Houses of Jackson Whole might be interested in formal proofs for repeatibility, but not for legitimacy. --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue May 20 20:14:17 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:14:17 -0700 Subject: [LMB] The price of infinity OT: In-Reply-To: <3EC9A721.9689.21858B@localhost> References: <081201c31e76$427eb440$060d4b43@LAPTOP> <3EC9A721.9689.21858B@localhost> Message-ID: <20030520191417.GB3601@ofb.net> On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 03:55:13AM -0500, jparish at siue.edu wrote: > 1 = 0.inf = (0+0).inf = 0.inf + 0.inf = 1+1 = 2 > > If we accept 1 = 2, everything collapses; all numbers, including our new > inf, wind up equal. To avoid that, we have to abandon the distributive > law. That would not be the only casualty, but that's already too high a I think you'd just have to abandon the distributive law for inf. But yeah, saying 0.inf=1 isn't that useful. One way of looking at it is with limits. If epsilon is a very small positive number, then 1/epsilon is a big number, which increases as epsilon shrinks to zero. Conversely, 1/(-epsilon) is a very big negative number, which heads to -inf as epsilon shrinks to zero. For division by zero to be well defined the limits have to be the same, which they ain't. Unless you define inf = -inf, "the point at infinity". Hmm. Still, you gotta know what you're doing. Which means that saying division by zero is undefined, aka "gives something we can't do normal math with" is perfectly defensible for most of us. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From Joy.Luckabaugh at lexisnexis.com Tue May 20 20:14:11 2003 From: Joy.Luckabaugh at lexisnexis.com (Luckabaugh, Joy H. (LNG-BET)) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:14:11 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: Message-ID: <38A60BEBEF60234CB599A1FD4BE466E58156D4@LNXBETEXCH00.lexisne xis.com> > --- Michael R N Dolbear a icrit : > > I understand (W W Sawyer) that quadratic equations got > included in so the > > concept that an equation could have more than one solution might be > > presented to the students. Joy Lanterman wrote: > Really? That was never brought up at all, in any of my math > classes. I never > did find out, and was too shy to ask, in those days, what the > darn things were > for, except for putting in textbooks and on exams. I have always thought of the Pythagorean theorem as very useful for determining approximately how many steps I could save if I cut a corner across a yard rather than staying on the sidewalk (Pythagoras's lessons: it's *always* shorter to cut corners, and beans contain the souls of those in transit). But then, I am definitely an applied math kind of person. (I had a roommate in college, a math major, who said "applied math" like it was a bad word; but I know better. Proofs, to me, were always work, but story problems were just *fun*). My approach to the physical sciences was the applied math approach - just plug the right numbers into the right equations for homework or the exam. I did well enough, but still don't know as much as I could about the science itself. The only kind of math I never touched again after learning it was Linear Algebra. Matrices were interesting enough, but I never got a really good sense of how they were applied, so I forgot most of it (eigenWHAT?). Everything else had an application that made it click for me (my favorite, I think, was the physics-type applied math problems taught in my calculus course: related rates and such). The only part of my education that seemed more-or-less worthless was time spent sitting in class listening to a teacher teach something I already knew and getting it just slightly wrong. That and gym (you can lead the short, asthmatic, uncoordinated girl with glasses to gym class, but you can't make her good at anything but sit-ups). But from what I've heard, my educational experiences were better than most. Joy Luckabaugh Joy.Luckabaugh at LexisNexis.com --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue May 20 20:16:24 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:16:24 -0700 Subject: [LMB] The price of infinity OT: In-Reply-To: References: <20030520155158.GD5928@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <20030520191624.GC3601@ofb.net> On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 01:29:14PM -0500, Brian Hurt wrote: > I've yet to meet a branch of mathematics that wasn't usefull in the real > world- i.e. usefull to solving real problems. Which is why science is so > heavily mathematic- if learning math is usefull for nothing else, it's > necessary for learning science. "Mathematics is the language of science" is the saying my father raised me on. If one had a Deistic impulse, one might then say mathematics is the language of religion and spirituality, since God is clearly a mathematician, and the Book of Creation was written in maths. I wonder if that POV would get more women into mathematics, since in the West they tend to be more spiritual. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From bo at dendarii.com Tue May 20 20:17:46 2003 From: bo at dendarii.com (Bo Johansson) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:17:46 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Nuptials References: Message-ID: <000f01c31f04$80f3fdf0$ab6c72d5@05we7eawlrqm6us> On Tuesday, May 20, 2003 3:43 PM [GMT+1 (or +2)], Dave Klecha wrote: > Saturday at around 1pm EDT, I married my longtime love Tarri > in a beautiful, seemingly ultra-speedy ceremony at St. > Stephen's Church in East Grand Rapids, MI. So, did you sing "Ja, vi elsker..."? Saturday was May 17, the Norwegian national day, and the Norwegian national anthem is "Ja, vi elsker dette landet..." (Yes, we love this country...). // Bo Johansson - not Norwegian but a neighbor --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Tue May 20 20:22:06 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:22:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: The great mathematicians In-Reply-To: References: <3EC9A721.13767.2184EE@localhost> Message-ID: <3ECA3A0E.1577.25FBE08@localhost> Brian Hurt writes: > Fermat actually wasn't that great of a mathematician. I beg to differ. Fermat is notable as the co-discoverer, with Descartes, of analytic geometry (and Fermat's version is far closer to the modern standard than Descartes' is); as the co-founder, with Pascal, of probability theory; as the first person to identify and use what is now known as the Well-Ordering Principle (in the form of the method of infinite descent); and as one of the major figures in the early history of modern number theory. (Fermat's Little Theorem[1] was one of the first interesting results in that area since the time of the Greeks.) As I mentioned in an earlier post, he also made significant contributions to (proto-)calculus, including the observation that, if a differentiable function f has a maximum or minimum at a, then f'(a)=0. He adds: > For the 20th Century, I'd also pick Godel, Turing, Alonzo Church, and > Haskell Curry (although the last two are obscure unless you like > functional programming languages). I don't recognize Curry's name, but I know the other three. I wouldn't rank them quite so high, but that's mainly because I prefer foxes to hedgehogs. (Godel, certainly, is one of the greatest of the hedgehogs.) [1] Let p be a prime number, and a another number not divisible by p. Raise a to the power p-1 and subtract 1; the result is a multiple of p. This has applications to, among other things, the theory of encryption. Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue May 20 20:25:19 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:25:19 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Education - was Steve's Trolling OT: In-Reply-To: <07ac01c31e67$f4035630$060d4b43@LAPTOP> References: <20030519234006.GA7165@ofb.net> <07ac01c31e67$f4035630$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <20030520192519.GD3601@ofb.net> On Mon, May 19, 2003 at 08:37:10PM -0400, Paula Lieberman wrote: > Ah, language. If I say, "there's a delta" I am not necessarily talking > about land at the end of a river.... but I very much would be unlikely to > say "delta" to denote change to Steve, just as what one jump pilot says to "epsilon" get used, as does "finite" (possibly misused), and "order of magnitude", which has been acronymized into DOM (decimal order of magnitude) due to frequent resorting to botecs (back of the envelope calculation). Alas, 'botec' just doesn't look like an English word to me, even though I coined it. Or maybe because I coined it. Caltech and MIT dialect seems to be notable for heavy use of 'random'. Then there was the swing dance class at Caltech I went to, where we were invited to imagine the follower following a path in the spacetime warped around the lead. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Tue May 20 20:22:45 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:22:45 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: The great mathematicians In-Reply-To: References: <3EC9A721.13767.2184EE@localhost> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030520142035.01db3b70@pop.east.cox.net> At 13:43 05/20/2003, Brian Hurt wrote: > > George S. Vaughan commented: > > > > > The names that immediately sprang to mind to me were Gauss, Newton, > > > Liebnitz, Wiles, Fermat himself, the Bernoullis, Euclid. > >Fermat actually wasn't that great of a mathematician. >Euler should definately be on the list. > > > The three that I named were universal mathematicians; virtually every > > branch of mathematics which *anyone* was working on in their time, > > they worked on. The only others with comparable breadth who spring to > > my mind are Euler and Henri Poincare' (though John von Neumann, my > > pick for greatest mathematician of the 20th century, comes close). > >For the 20th Century, I'd also pick Godel, Turing, Alonzo Church, and >Haskell Curry (although the last two are obscure unless you like >functional programming languages). From a mathematical idiot: Would Srinivasa Ramanujan qualify for inclusion? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Tue May 20 20:31:02 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:31:02 -0500 Subject: [LMB] The price of infinity OT: In-Reply-To: <20030520191417.GB3601@ofb.net> References: <3EC9A721.9689.21858B@localhost> Message-ID: <3ECA3C26.2874.267EF04@localhost> Damien Sullivan wrote: > I think you'd just have to abandon the distributive law for inf. But the point of introducing inf, in this way, is to make it a number like other numbers (just as one does with i in the complex numbers). If you have to include exceptions for it, you may as well abandon the attempt. (Imagine carrying out algebraic computations and, each time you applied the distributive law, having to check to make sure inf wasn't involved...) > But yeah, saying 0.inf=1 isn't that useful. One way of looking at it > is with limits. Now, it is perfectly possible to work with inf *purely in terms of limits* (and I think this is what George was getting at), but in that case any expression involving inf has to be translatable into a (possibly very complicated) statement about (finite) numbers. Or, as Paula suggested, one can work with any of several arithmetics which use actual infinities; but in none of those does the expression "1/0=inf" make any sense. Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue May 20 20:32:23 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:32:23 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Math In-Reply-To: <20030520151210.75863.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> References: <11.11880225.2bfaf520@aol.com> <20030520151210.75863.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030520193223.GE3601@ofb.net> On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 05:12:10PM +0200, Joy W. wrote: > Sigh. If only. I was actually pretty good at geometric proofs, once I > started ignoring the teacher and reading the text book, but I never did find > out what the darn things were _for_. What the proofs were for, or what the theorems were for? Proofs are so you know the theorems are true. The theorems... well, I've forgotten most of my geometry. Especially all the stuff with constructions with straightedge and compass; I can still figure out similarity and congruence stuff, I think. Euclid-style geometry is the one part of lower[1] math I'd be scared to tutor. [1] Calculus and below. :) -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 20 20:33:04 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:33:04 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The price of infinity OT: References: <3EC9A721.9689.21858B@localhost> Message-ID: <090001c31f06$a313bb30$060d4b43@LAPTOP> I've done LOTS of division by "zero" actually.... let x = 1; divide x**2 - 1 by (x-1) and the result is x +1 ..... I just divided by zero. Gets done by electrical engineers, physicists, mathematicians, and even high school students, all the time. And then there are classe that teach work with Laplace Transformers, Fourier analysis, complex variables, etc. etc. etc. Division by zero gets done all the all the time, setting a variable as above, x = 1 or x = 2 or something more complicated than that, and dividing the expression ( x**2 - 1 above) by the the variable or expression that's zero... standard technique used in any DECENT advanced college class used in advanced math in engineering or science or math that used that level of math. -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: > I wrote: > > "You can't divide by zero!" is an arbitrary dictum, *and a false > > one*. You *can* divide by zero - but it comes at a price, and a > > very high one. > > George Vaughan asked what that price was. > > Paula Lieberman claimed: > > > It's not really "a high price" it's not really "dividing by zero" > > I note that Paula's comment is entirely beside the point. The various > constructs to which she alludes are logical and useful, but since they do > not, as she concedes, involve dividing by zero, they do not pay the > price to which I was referring. > > Let me make a comparison. The complex numbers are constructed by > introducing a new number, called i, and decreeing that i.i = -1. From > that point on, the usual laws of algebra and arithmetic are applied, and > nothing too bizarre occurs. If we mimic this - if we decide to introduce a > new number and call it "infinity" or inf, and decree that 1/0 = inf, what > happens? We have 1 = 0.inf, which leads to: > > 1 = 0.inf = (0+0).inf = 0.inf + 0.inf = 1+1 = 2 > > If we accept 1 = 2, everything collapses; all numbers, including our new > inf, wind up equal. To avoid that, we have to abandon the distributive > law. That would not be the only casualty, but that's already too high a > price for the convenience of a reciprocal for 0. > Except, electrical engineers do it all the time. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 20 20:35:25 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:35:25 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: The great mathematicians References: <3EC92484.3787.3211E9B@localhost> <3EC9A721.13767.2184EE@localhost> Message-ID: <090501c31f06$f6ff09c0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Archimedes did develop integral calculus, but was a couple millennia ahead of the rest of the world. Newton and Leibniz came up with it simultaenously, the times and conditions were right. There's a palimpset which got looked closely at within the past year, which is the proof. -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: > I named, as the greatest mathematicians of history, Archimedes, > Newton, and Gauss. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 20 20:35:03 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:35:03 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: Borderline Personality Disorder (Tien) Message-ID: <181.1b4da76b.2bfbdd67@aol.com> Did you try the DSM IV ? That's the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Vol. IV. I just did an aol search, and came up with a lot of sites. You could probably find a list of symptoms that define the disorder there. Mary > I did a web search last week when this most recently came up, and I > couldn't find a useful-to-me BPD definition on the sites I looked at. Part > of this may be that the sites had a "if you suspect you have BPD and want > to get help" orientation. Naturally enough, and very socially useful, but > that tends to mask resemblances to Tien. Because his cardinal emotional > trait was that by definition nothing was his fault, ever; therefore, no > reason for him to want to change. > > Louann --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue May 20 20:38:06 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:38:06 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Nuptials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030520193806.GF3601@ofb.net> On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 08:43:25AM -0500, Dave Klecha wrote: > Saturday at around 1pm EDT, I married my longtime love Tarri in a > beautiful, seemingly ultra-speedy ceremony at St. Stephen's Church in > East Grand Rapids, MI. Congrats! -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From zafaran at sff.net Tue May 20 20:58:22 2003 From: zafaran at sff.net (Patricia A. Swan) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:58:22 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Borderline Personality Disorder (Tien) In-Reply-To: <181.1b4da76b.2bfbdd67@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030520155528.025cbf78@pop3.sff.net> At 03:35 PM 5/20/2003 -0400, CatMtn at aol.com wrote: > > I did a web search last week when this most recently came up, and I > > couldn't find a useful-to-me BPD definition on the sites I looked > at. Part > > of this may be that the sites had a "if you suspect you have BPD > and want > > to get help" orientation. Naturally enough, and very socially > useful, but > > that tends to mask resemblances to Tien. Because his cardinal > emotional > > trait was that by definition nothing was his fault, ever; > therefore, no > > reason for him to want to change. > > > > Louann >Did you try the DSM IV ? That's the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual >of >Mental Disorders, Vol. IV. I just did an aol search, and came up with >a lot >of sites. You could probably find a list of symptoms that define the >disorder there. > >Mary When we worked this out on the list, Diane E. pulled the clinical definition from the DSM IV she has at work. Pat in North Carolina -- * Patricia A. Swan <*> zafaran at dnet.net Ebay ID: zafaranswan * * Six Swans Design http://members.fortunecity.com/zafaran * --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Tue May 20 21:07:37 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:07:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: The great mathematicians In-Reply-To: <090501c31f06$f6ff09c0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> Message-ID: <3ECA44B9.8651.2896CEE@localhost> Paula Lieberman wrote: > Archimedes did develop integral calculus, but was a couple millennia > ahead of the rest of the world. Newton and Leibniz came up with it > simultaenously, the times and conditions were right. > > There's a palimpset which got looked closely at within the past year, > which is the proof. You've mentioned this before. Can you provide a reference? Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Tue May 20 21:18:28 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos Mitchinson) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 08:18:28 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) In-Reply-To: <20030520143546.60147.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Oh, come on now...Mark was _not_ hounded by Miles, except in his own > imagination. Miles quite deliberately handed him a credit chit > at the end of > BiA and left him alone to find himself. It was Mark who came > back, of his own > free will, to the Dendarii. Miles never attempted to contact him > at all in the > time between BiA and Mirror Dance. In Mirror Dance Miles admits that Impsec tell him to leave Mark alone, because every time Miles tries to contact Mark he goes underground again and Impsec have a hard time tracing him again. Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Tue May 20 21:32:25 2003 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:32:25 EDT Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Gym Message-ID: <1e7.9530635.2bfbead9@aol.com> Joy Luckabaugh writes: > That and gym (you can lead the short, > asthmatic, uncoordinated girl with glasses to gym class, but you can't make > her good at anything but sit-ups). But from what I've heard, my educational > experiences were better than most. This is also true of tall, skinny, athletic-looking but clumsy-as-a-cow girls. Somehow I had a hard time getting gym teachers to believe I wasn't tripping over my own feet on purpose. Mary --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 20 21:35:20 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:35:20 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Math References: <20030520151210.75863.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <096801c31f0f$565e3190$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joyeuse" > > Jim Parrish wrote: > > > > > Learn the why, not the how; then > > > you're doing mathematics. > > > Sigh. If only. I was actually pretty good at geometric proofs, once I started > ignoring the teacher and reading the text book, but I never did find out what > the darn things were _for_. > Geometry proofs are for several things, including: 1. Religious basis for the universe (Pythagoreans and others.... ) 2. Rigorous formalization of "this is how things are and can be depended upon (tied into 1 above. The reason why non-Euclidean geometry was so late to arrive, was the influence of 1 and 2 reinforcing one another. "This is beautiful, therefore it must be true" sort of logic applied (quote from the Nobel Prize-winning discoverer of electron spin, which he found as a result of it "falling out" of an equation -- that is, it make the math very elegant and "simple" if it existed at the value 1/2). (Non-Euclidean geometry applied to surfaces which aren't planes, such as the inside or outside of spheres, where the sum of the angles of a triangle, don't add up to 180 degrees, and where "parallel" lines can converge or diverge at infinity, instead of being separated by the same finite different forever). 3. With the framework of Rigor and "this will always be so", one can then use the theorems and corollaries for applications, such as, "To build a lean-to shed X meters long, and Y meters high, and at at 30 degree leaning angle, I am going to need Z meters of lumber." Where the "proof" applies, is that that value for the hypotenuse of the triangle is ALWAYS going to be a specific value, for specific values of one other side's length, and the values of the two of the angles, of the length of two sides, and the value of the angle between. There there are the ways of slicing up figures into triangles and other shapes, to minimize the length of lumber, etc. needed to be bought, or to have the area split up into the most nearly equal sized parts, etc. The proof is what allow one to know that one's doing something in the most efficient way, or a reasonable way. --------________--------________-------- From scott.r.padget at boeing.com Tue May 20 21:44:16 2003 From: scott.r.padget at boeing.com (Padget, Scott R) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:44:16 -0500 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCon Seattle Message-ID: It occurs to me that I ought to let the list know my upcoming travel plans. (Okay, it occured to *Lynette*, who has rather more sense/forethought than me. I would have thought of it eventually, really I would have....) Anyway. I'm going to be in the Seattle area the weekend of June 6-8 (probably arriving at SeaTac Thursday evening). The calendar is filling rapidly, but I'm hoping to be able to squeeze a Lois list gathering into the schedule. Seeing as how I'm a really sucky agenda/event planner, I hereby nominate Lynette to head up the MiniLoisConCom. And since I'm also utterly unable to keep up with the list, I'd appreciate it if any discussion of date/time/place etc. were cc'd to me directly. (Or, of course, you could just keep me ignorant and surprise me with the final plans if it would amuse Nuclear Grrl! ) Oh, and if anyone (Paul? The Susans?) should happen to know how to get in touch with Chas and Kelly Boyd (my #2 wife Blanche and her husband Kazimir from the SCA way back when) or Trissa and Scott "Junior" Barney (#3 wife ditto), please point me at them or vice versa. I'd like to see them too, if possible. Looking forward to seeing some of you again at last, and to meeting others! Pilot Padget--ramping up for the "child-free summer visiting season" --------________--------________-------- From dtilque at nwlink.com Tue May 20 21:40:25 2003 From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:40:25 -0700 Subject: [LMB] TWA: Baz drafted. What am I missing? References: <20030520150815.75135.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> <3ECA6009.DAABF37E@sprint.ca> Message-ID: <004d01c31f10$0ccb6560$c27cadcf@nwlink.com> D Mitchell took up hammer and chisel and inscribed: > I hope its ok if I ask for "help" re plot details. Sure, no problem > > I am just into Chapter 9 of tWA; my first foray into the > series. Miles has just "drafted" 'scaredy cat' Baz Jesek. But > there are some things about this scene I dont get. Can you > help?: > > Q. Why in the oath does Miles not want to tell Baz his (Miles) > title? Because of who Miles's father is and why Jesek is on the run from Barrayaran authorities. Basically, Miles does not want to scare Baz any more than he already is. > > Q. Why does Miles not want Bothari to know of this drafting of > Baz? As I recall Bothari was aghast when he found out Miles > had sworn Mayhew right? In the case of Mayhew, it was mostly because he's not Barrayaran. But also he just doesn't fit Bothari's idea of what a Armsman should be like. With Baz it would be because of Baz's aforementioned history. > > Q. What does Miles mean when he says to Baz at the end of the > swearing in: > "Your home. For what its worth." <----- ???? > Baz replies "Was that real?" > Miles continue:"Well-its a little irregular. But from what > I read of our history, I cant help feeling its closer to the > original than the official version." > > (Is this last bit making fun of maybe a chaotic, disorganized > Barrayar in the past? That social structure/organization of > Barrayar society long ago was established 'on the fly', rules > made up as they went,...) I think you pretty much have it. -- Dan Tilque --------________--------________-------- From carosue at centurytel.net Tue May 20 22:19:44 2003 From: carosue at centurytel.net (House of Unruly Fish) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:19:44 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Readerware buyers? Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030520151512.0344ba50@mail.so.centurytel.net> Hi all! I believe several listees took advantage of my offer about Readerware, the book cataloguing software, for which I am an affiliate. I finally got a check from the affiliate site, but ran into a problem. I offered a rebate to those listees who bought it, but my record page does not TELL me who bought it. :/ So if those individuals would drop me an email and tell me which version they bought (so I know how much their refund should be), I'll try to get going on that. Oh, and if you could give me an approximate purchase date. That's how the site keeps the record, and that will let me cross off OUR people from my modest list of sales. Thanks! Susan the Neon Nurse ++++++++++++++++++++++carosue at centurytel.net+++++++++++++++++++++ --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 20 22:23:22 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:23:22 -0400 Subject: [LMB] average age of reading References: <20030520152507.2156.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <097101c31f16$0b4049d0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joyeuse" > --- Paula Lieberman a icrit > > re: average age of reading: > > > It's, an, er, -mathematical- description.... > > Yes, I know, I was being sardonic. :-) I wasn't criticizing your use of the > term, but I'm not sure such a study exists for homeschoolers, or how meaningful > one would be, largely because they want to get on with the process of educating > their kids, rather than take time out to compare them to other kids. > > I have always hated the whole "average" business when dealing with education > anyway. We can add up and divide all we want, but the straight numbers do not > take into account all of the variables that touch on whether or not a given > child learns to read at a given age. > But, the issues include "how does one -measure- effectiveness, to know what works for this group, what works for that group, what are the best and most effective approaches, etc."? I am no extoller of the public educational system. It's not really sure what's it's trying to do especially. It has a charter for being custodian of children during the weekday, of trying to civilize them and inculcate some set of values (big fights over details there... ) and impart skills -- reading, writing, some math, some science, but then there are issues of "what constitutes 'citizenship'"? to some unspecified level of competence -- but again, who gets to define "competence" ? Competence varies in terms of culture, location, etc. -- the skill of riding of horse on Barrayar, important out in the back mountains parts of Barrayar, would have no place on Kline Station. The recycling and health/contamination/idiosyncracies of station life, intrinsic to life on Kline Station, don't apply to anyone who's a permanent planetside dweller on Barrayar. Knowledge of proper etiquette for dealing with Vor class, the Emperor, etc., on Barrayar, don't apply to democracies. And rituals relevant to democracies, don't apply to monarchies.... "Average" is useful for statistics, for doing some sort of metrics, and for gauging what to do/what works/what doesn't. So long as education focuses on "classrooms" and standardized texts, and mass teaching, and lectures, and such, there's going to be an "average" that the class moves at and a pace of introduction of material. If there were a dramatic change to interactive learning and breakup of schools and such, "average" would -still- exist, in terms of "on the average a student will spend ten hours on this segment" with some taking longer and some taking shorter amounts of time to master the segment. But to do that, means a total change in -culture- out of the "now you will all be lectured at on this material." It would also require changing the meme of "anyone under the age of X belongs in a classroom of some sort." --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 20 22:37:56 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:37:56 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The price of infinity OT: References: <081201c31e76$427eb440$060d4b43@LAPTOP> <3EC9A721.9689.21858B@localhost> <20030520155158.GD5928@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <097a01c31f18$14889f40$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Raun" > On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 03:55:13AM -0500, jparish at siue.edu wrote: > > introducing a new number, called i, and decreeing that i.i = -1. From > > that point on, the usual laws of algebra and arithmetic are applied, and > > nothing too bizarre occurs. > > IIRC (college memories...), doesn't i end up having a practical > real-world use? I thought it ended up being used working with AC > electricity - but all the standard forms end up with an even number of > i terms in the end, but it has useful effects that map to the real > world on the way? I think that was his point. i -- or j if talking EE, gets used extensively... e **[j * omega * t] for complex current, for example, = cos [omega * t] and j * sin [omega * t] IIRC.... wow, I've been away from this sort of stuff for a long time, I don't remember the basic formulae anymore! Then there are phasors, with complex angles.... again, my memory has bits and pieces of it. One doesn't have to use complex math to deal with current flow, but it's a lot more difficult without it. And then there's impedance.... dealing with that without complex math [that is, "complex" denoting "using the square root of negative one" is a -lot- more painful. The very concepts involved..... It gets heavily into calculus, too, with time-dependencies and lag.... the modeling involves responses which usually have both time delay and shape changes, and often a periodicity involves. Um, there's something called a "damped oscillation" or "damped harmonic" one example of which is, drop a rubber ball, and watch it bounce once, then a second time, etc., each time the ball's return bounce is lower, and there's a time delay from one bounce to the next, and from one "peak" to the next "peak" of height the ball goes up to. The "envelope" is an exponential decay to the ball staying on the ground, and the "oscillation" is the ball moving down and up and down until it doesn't bounce anymore. --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Tue May 20 23:00:33 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:00:33 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: The great mathematicians In-Reply-To: <3ECA44B9.8651.2896CEE@localhost> References: <090501c31f06$f6ff09c0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> <3ECA44B9.8651.2896CEE@localhost> Message-ID: <20030520220033.GA9578@fireopal.org> On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 03:07:37PM -0500, jparish at siue.edu wrote: > Paula Lieberman wrote: > > > Archimedes did develop integral calculus, but was a couple millennia > > ahead of the rest of the world. Newton and Leibniz came up with it > > simultaenously, the times and conditions were right. > > > > There's a palimpset which got looked closely at within the past year, > > which is the proof. > > You've mentioned this before. Can you provide a reference? Here's one: http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/report/news/november6/archimedes-116.html The General Technics folk have talked about it on occassion. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 20 23:08:53 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 18:08:53 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The price of infinity References: Message-ID: <09ee01c31f1c$6768e9a0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Hurt" > > Even more complex number systems are possible, and usefull. For example, > there's one called 'quaternions' which assumes that -1 doesn't just have 1 > square root, it has three- i, j, and k. These three numbers observe the > rules that i*j = k, j*i = -k, i*k = j, k*i = -j, j*k = i, j*k = -i, and > (of course) i*i = j*j = k*k = -1. This sounds deeply strange, except that > a lot of physical modelling makes a lot more sense if expressed in > quaterions than in old class x,y,z coordinates. Quaternions are used a > lot in 3D models and rendering- that first person shoot you play probably > uses quaternions. > I boggled there for a moment, and then suddenly remembered, "oh, axes, right." I tended to prefer subscripts and superscripts of indices [can't remember the designations, oh, wait, it's tensor] to that, especially since i , j, k are only -three- orthogonal dimensions.... > Of course, the study of quaternions lead into the invention/study of > linear algebra. And I haven't even mention Galois (Gal-wah) fields yet. But then there's nonlinear algebra, which brings us to ObBujold and wormhole math with its how many dimensions? More than three! > I've yet to meet a branch of mathematics that wasn't usefull in the real > world- i.e. usefull to solving real problems. Which is why science is so What, not "Pure mathematics, may it never be of use to anyone!" ??!! [from some Clarke story] > heavily mathematic- if learning math is usefull for nothing else, it's > necessary for learning science. It's not -necessary-, but it's usually helpful. It's necessary for physics, but there's a lot of biology that people have been able to avoid getting near high level math for. Hmmm, Cordelia had had a fair amount of math, especially since she commanded an exploration ship going to new places. She doesn't seem to have used it on Barrayar, however.... --------________--------________-------- From bo at dendarii.com Tue May 20 23:14:36 2003 From: bo at dendarii.com (Bo Johansson) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 00:14:36 +0200 Subject: [LMB] OT: The great mathematicians References: <3ECA44B9.8651.2896CEE@localhost> Message-ID: <00b001c31f1d$32f4ea10$ab6c72d5@05we7eawlrqm6us> > Paula Lieberman wrote: > >> Archimedes did develop integral calculus, ---SNIP--- >> There's a palimpset which got looked closely at within the >> past year, which is the proof. > On Tuesday, May 20, 2003 10:07 PM [GMT+1 (or +2)], jparish at siue.edu wrote: > You've mentioned this before. Can you provide a reference? Google is your friend: http://www.thewalters.org/archimedes/ // Bo Johansson --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Tue May 20 23:14:11 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:14:11 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien Message-ID: <20030520.151449.15136.126935@webmail06.lax.untd.com> Mandos writes: "Tien is not the only abuser in this relationship. Abuse comes in all forms, and completly shutting off your emotions from someone is just as much a form of abuse as Tiens manipulations." Er. Yes, by the time we see them this is precisely what Ekaterin has done. On the other hand, this is what Tien drove her to after many long years of Tien's taking responding to her honest emotions by stamping them into dirt. (See the "stalker" comments, earlier). Here's a (hyberbole alert!) comparative that may make this clearer: In the Soviet Union, the KGB ran much of the official priesthood. This, you will admit, is quite damaging to the priest-supplicant (congregant? What is the laity called in the Catholic tradition?) relationship, no? After a time, those who've seen relatives carted off to the Gulag, might (1) Begin lying to the priests and/or (2) Quit going to confession. Also hard on the relationship. Yet, don't you see that there is nothing improper or even extreme in condemning these KGB imposters and sympathizing with the supplicants even though (1) The KGB aren't *purely* at fault and (2) the supplicants aren't *purely* virtuous? The balance of error falls so heavily on the one side, that even getting "their veiwpoint", while interesting, won't excuse them. It would, on the other hand, be absolutely neccessary, as a first step towards getting the individual KGB-chappies to (1) repent their participation in oppression and fraud and (2) atone. Indeed, from a novelist's viewpoint, it might even make a quite interesting story arc. From a Christian point of view, it's practically an obligation, not to write these men off as, perhaps, you imagine the listees are doing with Tien. For the most part, they're judging him *as he deserves* from what he has done. Understanding Tien's personal demons and how his abuse drove Ekaterin into an emotional state wh., while it may have made it possible for her to endure living with the man, only fed Tien's emotional disorders, isn't neccessary to make such a judgement. I do think though, that understanding those demons, and appreciating Tien's perspectives, would be a necc. first towards *mercy*--enabling Tien to repair what's left of his life and form healthy relationships. So, while Tien himself is a lost cause, as a symbol for other men who need such mercy, such a discussion might prove interesting. It still wouldn't give you a free pass on the judgement, though :-) My apologies for any inadvertant offense I may haven given the Catholic and/or Russian listees. I wanted an example of a relationship as far out of Mandos' personal experience as I could imagine not knowing the fellow v. well. Kirsten Edwards (N.B. Thank you for the new header, btw :-) ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From jmjm at sprint.ca Tue May 20 23:17:15 2003 From: jmjm at sprint.ca (Doug Mitchell) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 18:17:15 -0400 Subject: [LMB] TWA: Baz drafted. What am I missing? References: <20030520150815.75135.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> <3ECA6009.DAABF37E@sprint.ca> <004d01c31f10$0ccb6560$c27cadcf@nwlink.com> Message-ID: <003701c31f1d$e16c7540$eb716395@9ep9u> Thanks for the reply Dan. Doug ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Tilque" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [LMB] TWA: Baz drafted. What am I missing? > D Mitchell took up hammer and chisel and inscribed: > > > I hope its ok if I ask for "help" re plot details. > > Sure, no problem > > > > > I am just into Chapter 9 of tWA; my first foray into the > > series. Miles has just "drafted" 'scaredy cat' Baz Jesek. But > > there are some things about this scene I dont get. Can you > > help?: > > > > Q. Why in the oath does Miles not want to tell Baz his (Miles) > > title? > > Because of who Miles's father is and why Jesek is on the run from > Barrayaran authorities. Basically, Miles does not want to scare > Baz any more than he already is. > > > > > Q. Why does Miles not want Bothari to know of this drafting of > > Baz? As I recall Bothari was aghast when he found out Miles > > had sworn Mayhew right? > > In the case of Mayhew, it was mostly because he's not Barrayaran. > But also he just doesn't fit Bothari's idea of what a Armsman > should be like. With Baz it would be because of Baz's > aforementioned history. > > > > > Q. What does Miles mean when he says to Baz at the end of the > > swearing in: > > "Your home. For what its worth." <----- ???? > > Baz replies "Was that real?" > > Miles continue:"Well-its a little irregular. But from what > > I read of our history, I cant help feeling its closer to the > > original than the official version." > > > > (Is this last bit making fun of maybe a chaotic, disorganized > > Barrayar in the past? That social structure/organization of > > Barrayar society long ago was established 'on the fly', rules > > made up as they went,...) > > I think you pretty much have it. > > -- > Dan Tilque > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold --------________--------________-------- From megj at nwlink.com Tue May 20 23:07:30 2003 From: megj at nwlink.com (Meg Justus) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:07:30 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy References: <20030520152812.37881.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <025f01c31f1e$d7f455e0$8ee94b43@meg> Joy: > Student: I'm sorry! > Me: Then don't keep _doing_ it! (Where "it" refers to any number of random > behaviors.) Why does this remind me of the conversation Illyan and Miles had at the end of The Vor Game regarding Miles's superiors??? That said, once Miles's chain of command shrank to two people, the problem did seem to go away. Sort of. Megaera --------________--------________-------- From megj at nwlink.com Tue May 20 23:24:57 2003 From: megj at nwlink.com (Meg Justus) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:24:57 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Nuptials References: Message-ID: <026001c31f1e$d9046650$8ee94b43@meg> > Saturday at around 1pm EDT, I married my longtime love Tarri in a > beautiful, seemingly ultra-speedy ceremony at St. Stephen's Church in > East Grand Rapids, MI. Congratulations! May you both be happier than you ever expected to be. Megaera --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Tue May 20 23:30:08 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:30:08 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: The great mathematicians In-Reply-To: <20030520220033.GA9578@fireopal.org> References: <3ECA44B9.8651.2896CEE@localhost> Message-ID: <3ECA6620.25489.30BE6A9@localhost> Scott Raun refers me to: http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/report/news/november6/archimedes-116.html This is quite interesting, but the discovery described falls far short of "inventing the integral calculus". I quote the article: "It has always been thought that modern mathematicians were the first to be able to handle infinitely large sets, and that this was something the Greek mathematicians never attempted to do," Netz writes in an essay on Archimedes published in the Nov. 1 issue of Science magazine. "But in the palimpsest we found Archimedes doing just that. He compared two infinitely large sets and stated that they have an equal number of members. No other extant source for Greek mathematics has that." This is indeed remarkable - and it would take a long time to explain just how remarkable - but it is not enough to support the claim that Archimedes invented integral calculus. (If nothing else, Galileo made the same discovery a couple of millenia later, and no one attributes the integral calculus to *him*.) There must be more to the story. Where? Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From RosinaRowantree at aol.com Tue May 20 23:32:39 2003 From: RosinaRowantree at aol.com (RosinaRowantree at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 18:32:39 EDT Subject: Re [LMB] Tien Message-ID: Malfoy wrote: "I've mentioned before that I have an ex who is rather like Tien. [snip] And god help you if you ever have a child with one." To which Laura replied: "Oh, yes, you've got that one right. "For the sake of Ekaterin and especially Nikki, I have often been so grateful to Lois for writing the breath mask scene." Why not hate Lois for making poor Tien suffer from Borderline Personality Disorder in the first place? If he hadn't, Ekaterin could have persuaded him to seek treatment for himself and Nikki, he would have held down a decent job, and they would have lived happily ever after... For Lois to make Tien insufferable, and then have him die through his own fault, so that Miles and Ekaterin could get together, seemed just slightly pander-ish. I am sorry for Tien; presumably this BPD is not something he chose to have, it affects his judgment, he loses the love and trust of his wife because of his behaviour (which is all due to the BPD), and even before he is dead she has given up on him, and fallen for someone else. I don't say I like Tien - he must be hell to live with - but the degree of loathing expressed in some of the posts seems inappropriate, even if Tien were a real person. Rosina --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue May 20 23:37:20 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 18:37:20 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Wormhole blockades, was Re: Education - was Steve's Trolling References: <38A60BEBEF60234CB599A1FD4BE466E58156D4@LNXBETEXCH00.lexisne xis.com> Message-ID: <0a2101c31f20$6149b1e0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Luckabaugh, Joy H. (LNG-BET)" > > --- Michael R N Dolbear a icrit : > The only kind of math I never touched again after learning it was Linear > Algebra. Matrices were interesting enough, but I never got a really good > sense of how they were applied, so I forgot most of it (eigenWHAT?). Eigenvalues and eignvectors Linear alegebar gets used a lot in electrical engineering -- multi order differential and difference equations get converted into systems of first order equations and put into matrix form, and solved with linear programming, for example. Example -- cascade capacitors. Each capacitor is another order of difference or differential.... Then there are inductors, which also are differential. Hmm, I just thought of a very silly discrete system.... I have pictures of alewives in a herring run, sort of lined up at each stage of the fish laddering getting ready to jump up to the next level. There are a half million herring that come up that brook. There's a rate of one fish per unit time jumping up, some number of fish try, some of them get swept back down, to the capacity of that level. That is, say a level can hold 100 fish.... if it takes a half second per fish to go up, and it's got a 50% chance of succeed, how long is it for that level to empty of fish ... but, meanwhile, there are more fish coming up to that level, and then there are also predators (herring gulls) trying to catch and eat the fish (and people, too....). Say there are six levels the fish have to come up -- how long will it take for all 500,000 fish to get up all six levels? Six levels -- that's a six order difference equation or some such, with time delays (fish makes to to level, and then waits....) and.... The same sorts of things would apply to queuing up at wormholes and such (except hopefully the probability of success is higher, and the predators are fewer.... through the mercs are hanging around the wormholes in times of stress, looking for enemies to pick off. Hmm. The Dendarii Mercenariis are patrolling, looking for ships from Z. Say there's a probability of .7 of detection, and .5 of the Dendarii successfully engaging a ship arriving at the wormhole which it detects. That yield a probability of .35 of successful engagement of a ship from Z. Now say that the Dendarii have a stakeout at the next wormhole that the ships from Z, head to N, are on. There's a time delay from going through the first wormhole, to getting to the second, having successfully evaded the Dendari blockade at the first wormhole. Say that the detection engagement success rate for the Dendarii with the second wormhole, is also .35 . The probability that a Z ship gets through undamaged would be .65 X .65 . The situation can be set up as a set of two equations, to solve together, or one equation of second order.... > Everything else had an application that made it click for me (my favorite, I > think, was the physics-type applied math problems taught in my calculus > course: related rates and such). > > The only part of my education that seemed more-or-less worthless was time > spent sitting in class listening to a teacher teach something I already knew > and getting it just slightly wrong. That and gym (you can lead the short, > asthmatic, uncoordinated girl with glasses to gym class, but you can't make > her good at anything but sit-ups). But from what I've heard, my educational > experiences were better than most. Gym class, torture sessions. --------________--------________-------- From dtilque at nwlink.com Tue May 20 23:11:35 2003 From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 15:11:35 -0700 Subject: [LMB] TWA: Baz drafted. What am I missing? References: <20030520150815.75135.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> <3ECA6009.DAABF37E@sprint.ca> <004d01c31f10$0ccb6560$c27cadcf@nwlink.com> <003701c31f1d$e16c7540$eb716395@9ep9u> Message-ID: <00bb01c31f1c$c833f720$c27cadcf@nwlink.com> Doug Mitchell took up hammer and chisel and inscribed: > Thanks for the reply Dan. you're welcome. I missed one question you snuck into the middle. >> >>> >>> Q. What does Miles mean when he says to Baz at the end of the >>> swearing in: >>> "Your home. For what its worth." <----- ???? It's "You're home" (cue grammar thread). Miles is saying Baz has just found a new home as Armsman. >>> Baz replies "Was that real?" >>> Miles continue:"Well-its a little irregular. But from what >>> I read of our history, I cant help feeling its closer to the >>> original than the official version." >>> >>> (Is this last bit making fun of maybe a chaotic, disorganized >>> Barrayar in the past? That social structure/organization of >>> Barrayar society long ago was established 'on the fly', rules >>> made up as they went,...) >> >> I think you pretty much have it. Let me expand on this a bit. Baz's oath went (in part) "...I am a forsworn military vassal of Gregor Vorbarra, but I take service anyway under ... this Vor lunatic...". I think that part (not the stuff where Miles hides his family name) is close to the original version. In other words, in the early days of the Counts and their liegemen, there was undoubtably a fair amount of loyalty swapping as well as lunatic Vor. -- Dan Tilque --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Wed May 21 00:04:10 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re [LMB] Tien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030520160123.E709-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Tue, 20 May 2003 RosinaRowantree at aol.com wrote: > I don't say I like Tien - he must be hell to live with - but > the degree of loathing expressed in some of the posts seems > inappropriate, even if Tien were a real person. Oh, good lord! How in the world can it be "inappropriate" to express loathing for a FICTIONAL character? Are we so politically correct now that we're not allowed to hate anyone even if they aren't real? LOL! ~malfoy, shaking her head and advising you not to join any of HER lists... ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Wed May 21 00:33:23 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:33:23 -0700 Subject: Re [LMB] Tien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c31f28$35425b80$24c02b04@earthlink.net> > "For the sake of Ekaterin and especially Nikki, I have often > been so grateful to Lois for writing the breath mask scene." > > Why not hate Lois for making poor Tien suffer from Borderline > Personality Disorder in the first place? If he hadn't, > Ekaterin could have persuaded him to seek treatment for > himself and Nikki, he would have held down a decent > job, and they would have lived happily ever after... An interesting question. I have sat here and thought about it for a while. I would say it's because I *know* that situations like that one *do* happen in the world. It's not anything Lois invented. It happens. Seeing it happen in a way that she can survive, that she gets through, and that she comes out of it in the end with a chance for a new future free of the situation, that is tremendously encouraging. I think in a way this is one of the things that good books are great for - they show us ways that the worst can be gotten through; they show us hopes, ways to aspire to. Watching someone struggle against X and *overcome* it is something I've seen in many places in Lois's work, and I like it. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Wed May 21 00:30:45 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 19:30:45 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: The great mathematicians References: <3ECA44B9.8651.2896CEE@localhost> Message-ID: <0a5801c31f27$d6cf6ed0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: > Paula Lieberman wrote: > > > Archimedes did develop integral calculus, but was a couple millennia > > ahead of the rest of the world. Newton and Leibniz came up with it > > simultaenously, the times and conditions were right. > > > > There's a palimpset which got looked closely at within the past year, > > which is the proof. > > You've mentioned this before. Can you provide a reference? > a few of the 203 URLs or so via Google search on Archimedes palimpsest calculus http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2001/archimedestrans.shtml "....NARRATOR: The new finding in the wedge theorem reveals not only that Archimedes was confident in dealing with infinity, but also that his use of infinite slices to calculate a volume was far more sophisticated than anyone had realised. In fact his technique is similar to the concept used in modern calculus for the same kind of problem. Archimedes was even closer to modern science than had been believed. It's amazing to think that a branch of mathematics that has been so crucial to our development was first begun by a man who died over 2,000 years ago. "REVIEL NETZ: We always knew that Archimedes was making a step in the direction leading to modern calculus. What we have found right now is that, in a sense, Archimedes was already there. He already did develop a special tool with which you can sum up infinitely many objects in measure of volume...." http://www.thewalters.org/archimedes/netz4.html http://www.sciencenews.org/20021123/mathtrek.asp http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/report/news/november6/archimedes-116.html --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Wed May 21 00:34:52 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos Mitchinson) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:34:52 +1200 Subject: Re [LMB] Tien In-Reply-To: <000201c31f28$35425b80$24c02b04@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > An interesting question. I have sat here and thought about it for a > while. I would say it's because I *know* that situations like that one > *do* happen in the world. It's not anything Lois invented. It happens. > Seeing it happen in a way that she can survive, that she gets through, > and that she comes out of it in the end with a chance for a new future > free of the situation, that is tremendously encouraging. But we do not get to see a way that he can survive, that he gets through and that he comes out of it in the end with a chance at a new future free of the situation, that is tremendously discouraging. All things have an opposing view, seeing only one side of things will never give a full and fair picture. Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Wed May 21 00:47:45 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 19:47:45 -0400 Subject: Re [LMB] Tien References: <20030520160123.E709-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <3ECABE63.F92FAE38@marna.ca> Azalais Malfoy wrote: > On Tue, 20 May 2003 RosinaRowantree at aol.com wrote: > > > I don't say I like Tien - he must be hell to live with - but > > the degree of loathing expressed in some of the posts seems > > inappropriate, even if Tien were a real person. Other way around, I think. Loathing Tien is remarkably soothing. And entirely safe. Personally I try very hard NOT to loathe any of the real life Tiens (and Tiennettes? Tienas? Bleah.) who I actually know. If I have only one thing to say about dealing with BPD in real life, it's that loathing them is a waste of time. If you're LUCKY, it's ONLY a waste of time. Usually it's a more serious error than that. Really. On account of it's a form of engaging with them. And this you do not wish to do. You don't want them in your house, you don't want them in your head. ESPECIALLY you don't want them in your head. You cannot 'teach them a lesson.' They won't learn it. You cannot hold a grudge as well as they can. Nor yet as long. You cannot stomach doing to them HALF the stuff they will unblushingly pull on you. They will always have a much larger and more effective arsenal than you have, because they can justify stuff that would make a rabid wolverine blush with shame. Forget closure; take a long hard look at where your circle of control actually ends, formally write off everything outside of it, remove the phrase "s/he needs to" from your vocabulary, suck up your losses and move on without ever looking back. Sure, I have compassion for them. I have compassion for junkies, too. I don't date them or make friends with them. A BPD person CAN be helped, even quite a lot, but actually, they respond best to help from people who do not care about them personally and who therefore cannot be gotten to engage. Meanwhile, I'd rather have termites in my house than a Tien in my head. > Oh, good lord! How in the world can it be "inappropriate" to > express loathing for a FICTIONAL character? Purely within the context of booktalking, it can interfere with understanding or appreciating the book, or take over or utterly slant a discussion. Or, I suppose, at a sufficiently high level of vitriol, it can just become intolerable to read. I don't like Tien either, but if people started posting, say, graphic discussion of precisely how they'd have liked Lois to have tortured him to death, I'd probably ask them to knock it the heck off, because I just don't want to read that. I'm not claiming that any of that is happening in this thread; I just looked at what I thought was probably a rhetorical question on your part and thought, no, no, it COULD be, actually... Marna. --------________--------________-------- From kelts at earthlink.net Wed May 21 00:50:05 2003 From: kelts at earthlink.net (Laura Gallagher) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:50:05 -0700 Subject: Re [LMB] Tien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c31f2a$89b788a0$24c02b04@earthlink.net> > But we do not get to see a way that he can survive, that he > gets through and > that he comes out of it in the end with a chance at a new > future free of the > situation, that is tremendously discouraging. Ah, but haven't various people been complaining that *Miles* makes mistakes of his own, that weren't that different from Tien's, really? Miles lied to people, Miles cheated, Miles made some dumb mistakes. Miles learned from his mistakes, redeemed them, and had to atone and fix things. In *Miles* we see how someone can survive it from that side. No, Tien didn't. But Lois's writings include how he *could* have, if he had chosen to. We do see the way that he could have survived. But Tien didn't choose that way. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Wed May 21 01:12:27 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re [LMB] Tien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030520170334.R709-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Wed, 21 May 2003, Mandos Mitchinson wrote: > But we do not get to see a way that he can survive, that he > gets through and that he comes out of it in the end with a > chance at a new future free of the situation, that is > tremendously discouraging. So you only like books where nobody loses? That could be depressing for you. Some of my favorite books have "good" characters I like rather less than I like the "bad guys". (I like Harry Potter. Most of the rest of the Gryffindors leave me cold, except for the Marauders, whom I really don't like except for adult!Lupin. And my love for Slytherins knows few bounds.) Write fanfic. That's what I did when I really, really liked a book but thought the characters I liked best got a really bad deal. ~malfoy (take the name as a hint) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From pam at gotcher.us Wed May 21 01:46:44 2003 From: pam at gotcher.us (pam) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 19:46:44 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Borderline Personality Disorder (Tien) Message-ID: <20030521004644.M90677@gotcher.us> DSM-IV-TR Diagnostic Criteria for 301.83 Borderline Personality Disorder A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self- image, and affects, and marked impusivity beginning in early adulthood and present in a variety of contets, as indicated by five (or more) of the following: 1. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. (do not include suicidal or self-mutilatin behavior covered in criterion 5) 2. a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. 3. identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self 4. impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). (do not include suicidal or self-mutilatin behavior covered in criterion 5) 5. recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior. 6. affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days) 7. chronic feelings of emptyness 8. inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights) 9. transient, stress-related, paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms. >From my class notes - key feature is fear of abandonment. Has a lot of self- regulation problems, sleep disorders, eating, emotion, etc.. Starts in early adolescence. Male borderlines are underdiagnosed - tend to get lumped into antisocial disorder. No core sense of who they are. >From the book, I'd give Tien 2,3,4,6,9 - may well have had 1 (I think some of his behavior when Ekaterin said she was leaving was indicative of 1) Pam --------________--------________-------- From pam at gotcher.us Wed May 21 01:47:46 2003 From: pam at gotcher.us (pam) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 19:47:46 -0500 Subject: Re [LMB] Tien Message-ID: <20030521004746.M84784@gotcher.us> As you say, BPDs are hell to live with. Very few people would consciously choose to live with them because of the form the relationship takes. They look mostly normal, and it's only once you get suckered into the relationship that you realize who very abnormal it is. That some of us *have* lived with them.... that's where you're getting the reaction. It's always easier to have compassion for someone who is in the process of dismantling relationships, but it's really hard if yours is the relationship that is being dismantled. Pam Rosina says: I don't say I like Tien - he must be hell to live with - but the degree of loathing expressed in some of the posts seems inappropriate, even if Tien were a real person. --------________--------________-------- From carbonelle at juno.com Wed May 21 01:51:22 2003 From: carbonelle at juno.com (Kirsten Edwards) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 00:51:22 GMT Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien Message-ID: <20030520.175206.15136.128917@webmail06.lax.untd.com> Marna's post on dis-engaging from BPD personalities was excellent: The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference... Here's a speculation: If Lois had created Insta-Virtua (rather like fast penta, only more painful) so that Tien could at his nadir have (1) Become quite sane and (2) Understood what he had done to his wife and child and (3) Engaged 100% sense of responsibility.... Given Barrayaran conventions, would he have commited suicide? Kirsten Edwards This space for rent ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! --------________--------________-------- From jwreynold at earthlink.net Wed May 21 02:18:36 2003 From: jwreynold at earthlink.net (James Reynolds) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:18:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re:OT:"Buffy" Bites the Dust Message-ID: <253EAB1C-8B2A-11D7-AD21-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> Miles would be so proud of the Buffster -I f you can't win under the present rules, edit them. I liked the signpost gag at the end - very Chuck Jones. I don't feel the need for spoiler warnings - either you've seen the last episode, or you're going to hear about it tomorrow-every last nitpicking bit. *** Jim Reynolds --------________--------________-------- From jwreynold at earthlink.net Wed May 21 02:21:26 2003 From: jwreynold at earthlink.net (James Reynolds) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:21:26 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: [LMB] Ambitions In-Reply-To: <200305200221.h4K2L4r5017960@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <8AF415E4-8B2A-11D7-AD21-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> > > Richard Macdonald wrote: >> >> >> I'm just wondering why everyone is ignoring the other child, >> is it because of her gender? >> >> Let's see, what's the worst thing you can do to .... >> >> Helen the Great >> Helen of Barrayar >> Empress Helen >> >> the thoughts are endless. >> >> Can you imagine Miles going down in history as Helen's Father. > > Helen of Barraryar...kidnapped by a rejected Cetagandan paramour after > being proposed to by Gregor Jr., Helen is secretly imprisoned on Zoave > Twilight while Barraryar builds and send a fleet of ONE THOUSAND jump > ships to scourge the Cetagandan Empire if they won't release her > (which they can't do as they don't have her:-). > > Now how do we work in the horse? The Emperor has issued you with that flashlight for a reason, mister. Get on it! *** Jim Reynolds --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Wed May 21 02:21:29 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:21:29 -0400 Subject: Re [LMB] Tien References: <20030520170334.R709-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <3ECAD45A.C61BBFD@marna.ca> Azalais Malfoy wrote: > > On Wed, 21 May 2003, Mandos Mitchinson wrote: > > > But we do not get to see a way that he can survive, that he > > gets through and that he comes out of it in the end with a > > chance at a new future free of the situation, that is > > tremendously discouraging. > > So you only like books where nobody loses? No, I get it. It's the 'cannon fodder' (canon fodder?) thing. If someone loses, they lose. But if they never had any other option, if there wasn't any right choice that they could have made and failed to make, then they become less of a character and more of a prop. A bad guy who can't win is as bad as a hero who can't lose. DID Tien ever have a chance? I think he did; there are a lot of places where he could have made better choices. Right up until the end, he could have made better choices; he might still have died, but he didn't, as someone pointed out, HAVE to die _still lying_. BPD isn't easy to overcome or anything, but it doesn't leave you incapable of acting rightly in the way that having a severed spine leaves you unable to polka, either. You still have choices about what you do. Bothari, I think, could not have lived; once he and Elena V. were in the same place again, he was pretty much dead-or-damned. But he made choices, given what he had to work with, that were good ones. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Wed May 21 02:28:25 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:28:25 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien References: <20030520.175206.15136.128917@webmail06.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <3ECAD5F9.E18A318C@marna.ca> Kirsten Edwards wrote: > Given Barrayaran conventions, would he have commited suicide? Hmm. For all intents and purposes, that's the same question as "in a Barrayaran context, would that have counted as reparation and made things better for Ekaterin and Nikki", right? Musing, Marna. --------________--------________-------- From jwreynold at earthlink.net Wed May 21 02:38:42 2003 From: jwreynold at earthlink.net (James Reynolds) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:38:42 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #2400 - 24 msgs In-Reply-To: <200305201604.h4KG46r5021855@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: > > Saturday at around 1pm EDT, I married my longtime love Tarri in a > beautiful, seemingly ultra-speedy ceremony at St. Stephen's Church in > East Grand Rapids, MI. Huzzah! May the heavens rain plot-buttered groat clusters down upon you both! *** Jim Reynolds --------________--------________-------- From mandos at allowed.to Wed May 21 02:35:58 2003 From: mandos at allowed.to (Mandos Mitchinson) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:35:58 +1200 Subject: Re [LMB] Tien In-Reply-To: <20030520170334.R709-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: > > But we do not get to see a way that he can survive, that he > > gets through and that he comes out of it in the end with a > > chance at a new future free of the situation, that is > > tremendously discouraging. > > So you only like books where nobody loses? That could be > depressing for you. Nope, I love books where people lose. But in this comment I suspect my point has been missed. Most of the list is concentrating on Tien being a monster who abused Ekaterin and is therefore irredeamble. My entire point in defending Tien, is that people are only looking at one half of the story and then making very judgemental commentaries about Tien. There is another story, the one Tien would have told. One that renders many of the judgements overly harsh. Society at the present time has a very "Men are brutal monsters" and "Women are always the innocent vitims" mentality. (Yes I know that is a huge generality). I feel the comments on list regardin Tien reflect that and fail to see that Tien is a victim as well, someone who has his own pains and issues yet rather than get the support and compassion that Ekaterin and Miles get, he gets hatred and revulsion. Mandos /s --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Wed May 21 02:40:46 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:40:46 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien References: <20030520.175206.15136.128917@webmail06.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <0ad401c31f3a$0075a4e0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirsten Edwards" > Here's a speculation: If Lois had created Insta-Virtua (rather > like fast penta, only more painful) so that Tien could at his > nadir have (1) Become quite sane and (2) Understood what he had > done to his wife and child and (3) Engaged 100% sense of > responsibility.... > > Given Barrayaran conventions, would he have commited suicide? > Hmmm. Was there a Vor lord he could pledge his allegiance to? [thing of Baz and Bothari]. Curiosity -- what does treatment of BPD consist of, and how effective is it? What are the results? There are psycopaths I've known who are socially functional to varying degrees, haven't generally acted like Tien, again, are functional; they don't themselves respect certain rules for the sake of the rules, but obey them either or both because people they respect/want to be respected by demand that those rules be complied with, or see that complying with the rules doesn't cost them muct, and/or see that disobeying the rules, puts them subject to treatment and/or punishment which they consider not worth whatever benefit/emjoyment they might get ignoring/disobeying the rules. That is, in the cost/benefit equation, the cost exceeds the benefit. Again, it's not that they have moral reservations or care about -that-, but rather, that there are other dimensions, that other people value, that stay their hands and keep them "socialized." Or, again, they regard it as a small price to pay compared to the detriments which would result from transgression. I'm wondering, therefore, what a "functional" person with BPD would act like. What would be the ways to put someone like Tien in check and force him to have acted decently/respectably/honorably to his wife, his son, and his associates? --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Wed May 21 02:41:41 2003 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 18:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Re: Tien In-Reply-To: <200305201924.h4KJOCr5023065@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: I'm not up to going into details right now, but the friend who gave me a ride to put the cat to sleep is one I met in the rooms of a twelve step program. We were discussing patterns of verbal abuse based on our experiences growing up and with various partners - triggered by her husband and his response to the death of a puppy and the care it got from the vet at that time. Essentially, when I described this character Tien from the book Komarr, we discussed things within ourselves and others we have seen at either end of the abusive relationship. She wants to read both Mirror Dance and Komarr because in our experience Lois writes spot on target for both the abuser and the abused and the blurry lines between them in both volumes. Susan in Seattle --------________--------________-------- From countryboy66 at mchsi.com Wed May 21 02:44:17 2003 From: countryboy66 at mchsi.com (Countryboy) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:44:17 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re:OT:"Buffy" Bites the Dust References: <253EAB1C-8B2A-11D7-AD21-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <056a01c31f3a$7dcbac50$d18dd70c@MainComputer> James Reynolds said: > Miles would be so proud of the Buffster -I f you can't win under the > present rules, edit them. > > I liked the signpost gag at the end - very Chuck Jones. > > I don't feel the need for spoiler warnings - either you've seen the > last episode, or you're going to hear about it tomorrow-every last > nitpicking bit. > That is absolutely true Milesean(sp) / Buffy to the end. I loved it, I hated it. I'm in serious need of someone to talk to about it. Countryboy (Allen) - desperate to find something "anything" on TV to watch. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Wed May 21 02:53:04 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:53:04 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Career tracks References: <179.1a7e65c7.2bf9101b@aol.com> Message-ID: <0ae701c31f3b$b8a8af20$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: > I know several young people who took the easy track in high school--tech > math, the easier English courses, etc., then had to go through a couple of > years of remedial work before they could handle college math to the extent > that someone training to be a teacher needs. A college dean once asked me if > I knew why so many students now take five years to graduate from college, > while in my time four was considered usual and many graduated in three or > three-and-a-half. The answer was that too many of them weren't properly > prepared by high schools that allowed them to pick a technical track at too What do you mean by "technical track" ??? If you mean geekhood, I have a problem with that.... If you mean "trade" that's different.... Hmmm, there are several different career tracking options in this part of the country -- there are the trade high schools, that focus on the range of things including automotive repair, welding, PhotoShop and graphics work these days, culinary and other entertainment industry [hotel stuff], drafting, electronics technician, etc.; there's the tracking into two year colleges, which includes technicians, dental technicians, people who operate X-ray and MRI etc. etc. machines, etc.; there are the four year traditional colleges tracking into arts and literature and the sciences and technology, and beyond [most of my college classmates got at least one degree beyond BS] . Back when I was in high school there were also tracks for 'studies end at high school, women become bank clerks or retail clerks or such or Mrs and bank clerks can advance promoted within and store clerks get promoted to management, etc; there was distributed education for people who wanted to open their own retail businesses.... > early an age, then they were stuck with all the remedial academic classes for > a year or more. > Most colleges have remedial classes in English and math and such, for what was supposed to have been learned previously but wasn't. More and more, however, the two year schools and community colleges play the role of teaching what should have been taught no later than high school, material bridging over so that those interested in four year degrees, can then have the knowledge and tools to succeed in classes at the four year college level. Hmmm, I wonder how Barrayarn's education compares to that available elsewhere in the Nexus, how common/rare is it for people to be sent offworld for education? --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Wed May 21 03:00:48 2003 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 19:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re [LMB] Tien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030520185603.Y709-100000@shell.rawbw.com> On Wed, 21 May 2003, Mandos Mitchinson wrote: > Society at the present time has a very "Men are brutal > monsters" and "Women are always the innocent vitims" mentality. > (Yes I know that is a huge generality). I feel the comments on > list regardin Tien reflect that and fail to see that Tien is a > victim as well, someone who has his own pains and issues yet > rather than get the support and compassion that Ekaterin and > Miles get, he gets hatred and revulsion. No, this isn't a gender issue at all. Ekaterin is our friend. We know her very well through Lois' books. If the same treatment had been dished out to Bel or to Ivan we'd be just as angry. And whether or not you like to admit it, Ekaterin's reactions were perfectly understandable, especially since, unlike your wife, she could not just leave Tien. She was STUCK in that marriage, forever. ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Wed May 21 03:11:19 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:11:19 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling ot: References: <7a.3feb985b.2bf6a6f1@aol.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20030517095544.02bc62b0@in.epix.net> Message-ID: <0ae801c31f3e$460df8a0$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Katrina Knight" > At 05:36 PM Friday 05/16/03 Paula Lieberman wrote: > >From: > >The prodigies get heard about, but what about those who > >aren't? What's the > >average age I wonder, at which homeschooled kids learn to read? > > I don't know, but I suspect that homeschooled kids start reading at > an earlier average age simply because they're getting more parental > attention and support in their learning. > That's not clear to me -- that is, different kids are "ready to learn how to read" at different ages. Not everyone develops at the same age. There are kids who learn to read early at three or four or early, and others who aren't ready to learn until six, or even later. That's why I'm curious about the homeschoolers, as to when their kids learn to read. Development goes at the speed that it goes at, there are things that parents and other can do to try to speed it up, but there are different stages that different people hit at different times, and trying to force it early, can result in -worse- results and even slower development, than waiting some months for the kid to be more ready. Some disabilities and and learning disabilities show up when the kid fails to hit a milestone when it's "normal" and continue to meet that milestone thereafter. The cases where a child doesn't "creep" and starts to stand up and walk, aren't all that "normal" but they aren't unheard of, either... .but when creeping doesn't occur and then standing/walking are late, those tend to be indicators.... with the word being "tend." There might NOT be a problem, but it's suspicious. [snip] > I think some of this is fixable. You're never going to change the > fact that some students are less capable than others, but it should What about people who -hate- learning? Some do. They'd just as soon join up some community where there's a charismatic leader who tells them how to run their lives.... > be possible to do things to cause more students to *want* to learn. > The ones who have no interest in learning generally didn't start out > life feeling that way, and the idea that they should be given passing > grades anyway originated somewhere. Even the less capable students That's the social factor "all children WILL go to school, and go in year group cohorts, and the society pressure is for the cohort to mark ahead in lockstep." > are going to learn a lot more if they want to learn. A lot of of the > fix for that involves fixing the way society, or at least some > segments of society think though. Yes. > Parents who don't value education > tend to teach their kids not to value it. Some of the "fix" involves Or they intentionally sabotage their kids, from getting "too educated" and ceasing to fit into the community the parents want their children to stay in. "And when they grow up, they will go away" from a song which also has the lyrics, "They're leaving old Ireland for a far distant land" based on there being a lot more opportunity in the USA and the USA being more beckoning out than staying in Ireland. The Irish parents weren't trying to stop their children from moving the way that parents in some other cultures do, but they couldn;'t have been happy seeing the migration out. Other parents though have done a lot more to try to prevent their children leaving for elsewhere, and their children leaving their community and culture, and one of the ways of doing that, is limiting their education and exposure to other ways -- and that's one of the reasons that some of the homeschoolers homeschool, because the want absolute control, and to limit exposure to other ideas. > making improvements to the way schools work though. Trying to run > classrooms where kids of all abilities are supposed to learn at the > same pace leaves the slow ones behind and/or bores the ones with more > ability. Neither of those is good for keeping the kids involved > interested in learning. > > As for whether or not too many people get a post-secondary education, > I think that it is more that too many people get the wrong > post-secondary education. It doesn't make sense to push everyone into > college. Many people would be better off with a good tech school or > apprenticeship. Learning a trade instead of getting a degree > shouldn't be discouraged or looked down upon. It's a strange culture the USA is, because there are entire cultures within the culture that don't involve post secondary school education. The "general public" might look down on mechanics, plumbers, furnace repair people, etc., but looked at from economic well-being, they tend to be a lot better off the a lot of "average" college graduates! --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Wed May 21 03:11:56 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:11:56 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re:OT:"Buffy" Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <253EAB1C-8B2A-11D7-AD21-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3ECA9A1C.16683.3D6F498@localhost> James Reynolds wrote: > Miles would be so proud of the Buffster -I f you can't win under the > present rules, edit them. Yeah. It wasn't the greatest season finale - nothing can top the first three - but things wrapped up nicely without closing the door on spinoffs. (I saw it yesterday morning, and was absolutely shocked by the casualty list.) Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Wed May 21 03:13:21 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:13:21 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Steve's Trolling OT: References: Message-ID: <0ae901c31f3e$8e98ae30$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "lorraine fletez-brant" > JoatSimeon at aol.com: > Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 23:00:11 EDT > > >lorrainenfletez at hotmail.com writes:< > > Heavens, wrong attribute ! I think it was Christopher Gwynn responding to > me. I do think that math is important, and all students should be exposed to > the basics, but as someone who is exactly in your shoes, mathematically > speaking, I can hardly be the spokesperson for the Math Education Corps > . I had to take algebra twice (got bored with it as a freshman in high > school and made the mistake of putting a novel in my book and reading in > class - by the time I finished the book, I was hopelessly lost!) and the > only reason I passed geometry was because the teacher discovered that we > were the same sun sign...I did NOT deserve to pass! In college, I so enjoyed > the two years each of geology and anthropology that I considered switching > majors from German. Right up until the 3 year curriculum showed that math > was going to be needed. That's the horrid thing, that there wasn't a reaonable path to math remediation for you... >What was funny were the results of the GRE exam for > graduate school: the math was quite literally at one end of the scale and > the rest was at the other...I always pictured the scorers wondering if this > poor person had had brain damage on one side of her head . > ??? > Frank, civil engineer who loves math, insists that I could be taught by the > proper methods, but I think I am just lackilng the math gene! Jim - what do > you think? Not about me specifically , but in general? I suspect it's much more likely that no one ever tried to teach it to you in a way that would make sense to you. There are lots of different ways of teaching and learning, and math doesn't HAVE to be boring.... but most textbooks MAKE it BORING. And most of the teachers teaching it, there's some combination of not caring about it for it's own sake, not comprehending that what's important to the teacher might not be important to the student, and being -constrained- to teach the way the school insists. My sister didn't think much of the way math was required to be taught in the school system she taught it (wasn't her first teaching experience, she was a TA in grad school at Rennsalaer, in math....). One friend of mine said, "if anyone had ever told me that math is useful for keeping track of MONEY and financial stuff, I would have been interested!!!! I suppose in an alternate universe she's an Imperial Auditor poring through interstellar finances finding all the skullduggery and putting spokes into the bad guys's operations.... Or perhaps being an interstellar banker or some such. --------________--------________-------- From zafaran at sff.net Wed May 21 03:19:15 2003 From: zafaran at sff.net (Patricia A. Swan) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:19:15 -0400 Subject: Re [LMB] Tien In-Reply-To: References: <000201c31f28$35425b80$24c02b04@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030520220934.03c6b3a8@pop3.sff.net> At 11:34 AM 5/21/2003 +1200, Mandos Mitchinson wrote: > > An interesting question. I have sat here and thought about it for a > > while. I would say it's because I *know* that situations like that > one > > *do* happen in the world. It's not anything Lois invented. It > happens. > > Seeing it happen in a way that she can survive, that she gets > through, > > and that she comes out of it in the end with a chance for a new > future > > free of the situation, that is tremendously encouraging. > >But we do not get to see a way that he can survive, that he gets >through and >that he comes out of it in the end with a chance at a new future free >of the >situation, that is tremendously discouraging. > >All things have an opposing view, seeing only one side of things will >never >give a full and fair picture. > >Mandos >/s Unless she came up with some magical treatment from Beta or something like that, Borderline Personality Disorder just gets progressively worse as the person ages. And you could see that progression in Tien. Tien rang *so* true to life it wasn't funny. I read those scenes, and I'm sitting there thinking: Been there, done that, got the T-shirt and wore it to rags, then used it to scrub mental floors after father died and I had to clean the mess out of *my* head where he'd manipulated and abused me from birth. Pat in North Carolina -- * Patricia A. Swan <*> zafaran at dnet.net Ebay ID: zafaranswan * * Six Swans Design http://members.fortunecity.com/zafaran * --------________--------________-------- From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Wed May 21 03:22:56 2003 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:22:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Re:OT:"Buffy" Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: <253EAB1C-8B2A-11D7-AD21-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> Message-ID: I don't watch much TV. Just don't have enough time. To be more specific, the only shows I've watched regularly over the past few years were Sex and the City, and the taped proceedings of our local City Council (and only the interesting bits of the latter). But I figured I had to watch the Buffy finale, just to stay up to date with pop culture (and all my friends who love it). So, I tried to watch the first part last week, only to find that a change in our high-speed Internet access a while before had screwed up cable TV access (see how much TV I watch), and I could only get sound and rolling pictures. "Not bad dialogue," I concluded. We fixed the TV problem. I saw the whole of part 2 tonight. I liked it. But what I don't get is how anyone could actually get into the show with the damned commercials destroying the mood every 5-10 minutes. (Hey, maybe that's why everyone's so post-modernist, self-referential these days -- you can never actually get into things?) I could see really enjoying the show if I saw it uninterrupted on DVD, but broken up like that? As I said, I don't watch much TV. I'll trying renting some Buffy sooner or later. [BTW, I agree with James' assessment.] To provide an obBujold, I can't actually remember any advertising at all on Barrayar, and not much elsewhere. And no "sponsorships" or "public-private partnerships". I wouldn't have thought societies would have outgrown that yet ... On Tue, 20 May 2003, James Reynolds wrote: > Miles would be so proud of the Buffster -I f you can't win under the > present rules, edit them. > > I liked the signpost gag at the end - very Chuck Jones. > > I don't feel the need for spoiler warnings - either you've seen the > last episode, or you're going to hear about it tomorrow-every last > nitpicking bit. > > *** Jim Reynolds > -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca / alayne at ncf.ca "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Wed May 21 04:04:49 2003 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:04:49 -0400 Subject: Re [LMB] Tien References: Message-ID: <0aef01c31f45$bf2b8250$060d4b43@LAPTOP> -- Paula Lieberman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mandos Mitchinson" > > > But we do not get to see a way that he can survive, that he > > > gets through and that he comes out of it in the end with a > > > chance at a new future free of the situation, that is > > > tremendously discouraging. > > > > So you only like books where nobody loses? That could be > > depressing for you. > > Nope, I love books where people lose. But in this comment I suspect my point > has been missed. > > Most of the list is concentrating on Tien being a monster who abused > Ekaterin and is therefore irredeamble. My entire point in defending Tien, is I don;'t think it's that at all. By the time the -reader- meets Tien, he has no socially redeeming characteristics left. He's blown his marriage -- Tien and Ekaterin have been married -years- and he's had years in which his sicknesses have prevailed over whatever redeeming social values he might ever have had, harming his wife and son, squandering whatever income came his way on suspect no-payoff bad bets, committing legal infractions, acting in bad faith.... Tien a decade and a half earlier there may have been hope for, but that isn't/wasn't when the reader met Tien. The reader met Tien the Longtime Loser, whose prior actions follow a path that's spiralling ever more dismally disastrously downhill, with Ekaterin and Nikki strapped to him, no matter how objectionable Ekaterin finds this and howevermuch she's tried to check his destructive path. There is -nothing- at the point that the reader meets Tien at, that Ekaterin can do anymore, to try to save -Tien-, and there';s nothing that Tien has ever done, to try to avert disaster and to act honorably on behalf of his wife and son. For something to suddenly change, either a very late epiphany had got to hit Tien, or something drastically intervene that isn't part of the story, to effect a change to wrench Tien out of the spiral. The points that intervention could have happened, were mostly in the past, and not taken. Tien by the time of the book is mostly a lost cause, mired and sinking fast, and there's nothing involved that's got a real chance of effecting turnaround. The book isn't a Miracle Play.... > that people are only looking at one half of the story and then making very > judgemental commentaries about Tien. There is another story, the one Tien > would have told. One that renders many of the judgements overly harsh. > I personally am not interested in -that- story. I don't like William Gibson, Bruce Sterling, and such author's work, and I got really ANNOYED with _A Portrait of the Artist As a Young Man_. Why couldn't the git get a -life- already and break out of the "sin, go to Confession and clear the sin, sin -again-, go to Confession, sin -again-...." cycle. What a boring JERK, and NOT someone I found interesting/intriguing/amusing/and/or/edifying to spend MY leisure time with! > Society at the present time has a very "Men are brutal monsters" and "Women > are always the innocent vitims" mentality. (Yes I know that is a huge Tien happened to be male. Ekaterin happened to be female. It wasn't gender, it was -personality-. Accusing Lois! of gender stereotyping is utterly ludicrous to me. Tien was a personality defective scumbag, and that he was male, was because that character was male. Ethan of Athos was a male character, too, and he was the nurturering type in Ethan of Athos, as opposed to Elli Quin, non-domestic warrior. Ethan wanted children to raise and cherish; Quin figured she'd die in combat, and didn't feel much if any call to motherhood. Ethan and Terence Cee -both- were highly motivated to have their own genetic descendants -- so's Miles, for that matter. Elli Quin doesn't expect to ever settle down to domesticity, and it's not something all that attractive to her. Elene rejects it in The Warrior's Apprentice, later changing her mind a long time later -- longer lives give one some opportunity for that. Tien is a monster, but it's -not- due to his gender, it's due to his personality, his illnesses, and his -responses- to his illnesses. Ekaterin is the unfortunate wight stuck married to depraved Tien, and not being someone who was a Betan psychologist fully trained and raised to believe in herself and not to defer to the older husband when she was married, never had the -tools- to recognized and deal with Tien's problems when they might have been dealt with by a more mature, more experienced, more trained-to-deal-with-such things spouse.... Most people -don't- have the tools to deal with a spouse like Tien, and ultimately, without those tools have the choices of leaving, becoming ever-more isolated in the mental illness of the spouse, suicide, or -die- from the abusive spouse's actions. No, it's NOT pretty, but those are the things that happen. Salvation doesn't come on earth to everyone.... > generality). I feel the comments on list regardin Tien reflect that and fail > to see that Tien is a victim as well, someone who has his own pains and > issues yet rather than get the support and compassion that Ekaterin and > Miles get, he gets hatred and revulsion. > > Mandos > /s Again, by the time the reader meets Tien, Tien is about as attractive as a murderous ghem Lord. Are we supposed to sympathize with the murderous Ghem Lord, too, and regard them as sadly misunderstood and discriminated against?! There are a lot of people caught and killed by circumstance in Lois' books, in the wrong place at the wrong time -- the jump pilot in Warrior's Apprentice, and many many others. Those who die who -deserve- it -- notably Vorrutyer and Prince Serg -- don't always go alone -- there was everyone else on that ship that Prince Serg was on, for example , and all the people killed in the larger war. Ezar got rid of his mad dog son - but at an enormous cost in other people's terminated lives. --------________--------________-------- From dtilque at nwlink.com Wed May 21 03:46:42 2003 From: dtilque at nwlink.com (Dan Tilque) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 19:46:42 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Consequences and Mercy (was selfish thread - now on Topic) References: Message-ID: <002e01c31f43$374bf2e0$aca4adcf@nwlink.com> Mandos Mitchinson took up hammer and chisel and inscribed: >> Oh, come on now...Mark was _not_ hounded by Miles, except in >> his own imagination. Miles quite deliberately handed him a >> credit chit at the end of >> BiA and left him alone to find himself. It was Mark who came >> back, of his own >> free will, to the Dendarii. Miles never attempted to contact >> him at all in the >> time between BiA and Mirror Dance. > > In Mirror Dance Miles admits that Impsec tell him to leave > Mark alone, because every time Miles tries to contact Mark he > goes underground again and Impsec have a hard time tracing him > again. And it's also noted that Miles didn't make these contact attempts for his own purposes, but rather because Cordelia asked him to. On his own, Miles probably would have left Mark alone. -- Dan Tilque --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Wed May 21 04:16:34 2003 From: jparish at siue.edu (jparish at siue.edu) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:16:34 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re:OT:"Buffy" Bites the Dust In-Reply-To: References: <253EAB1C-8B2A-11D7-AD21-000393BDA014@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3ECAA942.7150.1816CF@localhost> alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: > As I said, I don't watch much TV. I'll trying renting some Buffy > sooner or later. Some advice, if you do. 1) It's probably not a good idea to start with season one, which is rather uneven in quality. The season finale, "Prophecy Girl", is outstanding, though, and it's very nearly a stand-alone; it might be best viewed right after episode #7, "Angel", though. 2) If you want to see the absolute best of Buffy, the Angelus arc in season two is *it*. The episodes are: #13, "Surprise"; #14, "Innocence"; #17, "Passion"; #19, "I Only Have Eyes For You"; and the two-part finale, "Becoming". (IOHEFY can be skipped, but there's one important plot point right at the end, so I'd recommend including it.) Season two unfortunately includes some clunkers as well, but the series never surpassed the Angelus arc. 3) Season three is, IMO, overall the strongest season; it doesn't reach the heights of season two, but - especially in the second half of the season - it maintains a consistently high level of quality. The most outstanding episodes, in my judgment, are: #9, "The Wish"; #12, "Helpless"; the two-parter #14/15, "Bad Girls/Consequences"; and the two-part finale, "Graduation Day" - but "Band Candy", "Lover's Walk", "The Zeppo", "Doppelgangland", and "The Prom" also rank very high. 4) After season three, things get iffy. If the first three seasons hook you, then go ahead straight through. There's some low-quality stuff, but also some great episodes, which unfortunately will be largely incomprehensible if you haven't seen *everything* before, good or bad. (4.10, "Hush", and 5.15, "The Body", come closest to being stand- alones, and they are marvelous.) Good luck, and good viewing Jim Parish! Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed May 21 04:21:02 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:21:02 -0500 Subject: Re [LMB] Tien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030520221635.01db7ec0@pop.east.cox.net> At 17:32 05/20/2003, RosinaRowantree at aol.com wrote: >I am sorry for Tien; presumably this BPD is not something he chose to have, >it affects his judgment, he loses the love and trust of his wife because of >his behaviour (which is all due to the BPD), and even before he is dead she >has given up on him, and fallen for someone else. I don't say I like Tien - >he must be hell to live with - but the degree of loathing expressed in some >of the posts seems inappropriate, even if Tien were a real person. Tien was made unsympathetic and flawed throughout. If he hadn't been, we would all be arguing to the proposition that Ekaterin was wrong in her decision to leave him. But his own faults were what eventually killed him. Why he had those faults is beyond the scope of what was, after all, an adventure novel, not a psychological study. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From otherlois at yahoo.com Wed May 21 04:46:16 2003 From: otherlois at yahoo.com (Lois Aleta Fundis) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] Nuptials In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030521034616.99551.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave Klecha wrote: > Saturday at around 1pm EDT, I married my longtime > love Tarri in a > beautiful, seemingly ultra-speedy ceremony at St. > Stephen's Church in > East Grand Rapids, MI. Congratulations, Dave & Tarri! > And no, there isn't anything I should be doing right > now. :) I'm sure you'll think of something. ===== Lois Fundis ("the other Lois") otherlois at yahoo.com visit my blog -- http://auntlowey.blogspot.com "I didn't vote for him." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From otherlois at yahoo.com Wed May 21 05:10:45 2003 From: otherlois at yahoo.com (Lois Aleta Fundis) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: average age of reading In-Reply-To: <20030520152507.2156.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030521041045.89694.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> --- Joyeuse wrote: > We can add up and divide all we want, but > the straight numbers do not > take into account all of the variables that touch on > whether or not a given > child learns to read at a given age. Besides, it's a meaningless question for kids who learn to read before they start school. I wasn't homeschooled. My parents and older siblings made no special effort to teach me, or my younger sisters, anything beyond the usual stuff little kids learn. So I wasn't actually taught to read when I was a preschooler. But I was read to, and apparently picked up things from that and from that great educational device, television [1], and somehow, I figured enough of it out on my own that I was reading at age three.[2] I don't remember ever *not* knowing how to read. And there was no stopping me. By the time I started school (at not quite six, first grade -- there was no kindergarten in our area -- in a regular, semi-rural public school) I was reading at a fifth or sixth grade level. My three younger sisters, though, all were perfectly content to wait until they learned reading in school, at six or so. [1] Some of the first words I remember are brand names: Tide, Joy, Chevrolet. . . [2] Mom said it was on a Sunday afternoon that she discovered I could read. If I was three, it was probably sometime in 1954. She sat down on the sofa with me and my sister Ginny, who was two, to read us the "funnies" from the Sunday paper (probably the old Pittsburgh Sun-Telegraph) . . . and I started reading them to *her*! ===== Lois Fundis ("the other Lois") otherlois at yahoo.com visit my blog -- http://auntlowey.blogspot.com "I didn't vote for him." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Wed May 21 05:12:24 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 00:12:24 -0400 Subject: Re [LMB] Tien References: <20030520185603.Y709-100000@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <3ECAFC65.24E95A1C@marna.ca> Azalais Malfoy wrote: > No, this isn't a gender issue at all. What She Said. The person I've been thinking of through much of this thread is in fact a Tiennette. Except that in the context of a traditional Barrayaran marriage, a wife who was BPD would probably be considerably more limited in her scope for mayhem. And yeah, spouses of Tiens CAN develop some pretty unpleasant coping mechanisms, can even become abusive in turn, can certainly end up treating their next partners badly, if they don't get some help. That it is Not Their Fault doesn't change the fact that what was survival behaviour THEN is destructive NOW. Ekaterin mostly seems not to have done so, for reasons which from a Watsonian perspective lie in her unusually strong and resilient character, and in Doylist terms are probably related to Forwarding The Plot. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz Wed May 21 05:14:14 2003 From: Tracy.MacShane at vuw.ac.nz (Tracy MacShane) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:14:14 +1200 Subject: [LMB] OT: The creative list mind Message-ID: <0DCA8D5F170C6645898F80562B35F53702A7C9AF@PICO.staff.vuw.ac. nz> We've talked about how all knowledge appears to be contained in the list mind; it appears that there's a fair amount of creativity from members and associates, too, that I'm just beginning to mine. I'd already encountered SM Stirling, so no surprises there. I was pretty blown away by Catherine Asaro's books, once I found them. I've just recently found a Pat Wrede book in the YA section of the library, which I *devoured* in one sitting (OK, for someone who can do LoTR in one sitting, no big deal, but it *was* a work night!). I'm also enjoying dipping into Malfoy's fanfic when I have some time spare. There are bound to be lots more of you who write, I don't necessarily know who and what yet, but I'm sure I'll enjoy finding out. The filk gets pretty entertaining (I'll never think of Greensleeves the same way again). I also like the recommendations that pop up from time to time. I haven't quite succumbed to H*n*r H*rr*ngt*n yet, but Robin Anderson has promised to initiate me into the delights (at least he has every book, and it's really good to be able to start somewhere near the beginning, not episode XXXVIII - or whereever HH is at present). So, just to say "thanks all", and keep the good stuff coming! --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Wed May 21 05:29:39 2003 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 00:29:39 -0400 Subject: Re [LMB] Tien References: Message-ID: <3ECB0070.35097B33@marna.ca> Mandos Mitchinson wrote: > yet rather than get the support and compassion that Ekaterin and > Miles get, he gets hatred and revulsion. Well, this may be so onlist, but I don't see it as being so in canon. Ekaterin has clearly given him huge amounts of support -- remember that we meet them as she's already hit the end of her rope. And she STILL gives him Nikki's money. Even when she leaves him, she's not vengeful. And there are strong suggestions that he's had (and messed around) some very supportive bosses and co-workers as well. Friends he does not have at this point, nor apparently want. We never see much of the youn