From RayLists at quixnet.net Tue Mar 1 01:39:04 2005 From: RayLists at quixnet.net (Ray) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:39:04 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Invention of the wirehead? Message-ID: <4223C7B8.6030202@quixnet.net> http://www.halifaxherald.com/stories/2005/02/27/f124.raw.html Larry Niven wrote of people who have wires implanted into the pleasure center of their brains. Such people are known as 'wireheads'. Ray Drouillard -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.1 - Release Date: 2/27/05 --------________--------________-------- From alice at sfbooks.com Tue Mar 1 02:54:32 2005 From: alice at sfbooks.com (Alice Bentley) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:54:32 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT Heinlein (was: Book club questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pat asked: >PS - anybody have a copy of his TAKE BACK YOUR GOVERNMENT that they >want to let out of their hands? Name a price. As far as I know, this has stayed in print continuously since Baen reissued it in 1992 ISBN:0-671-72157-7, $5.99 Paperback (September 1992) If your local bookstore doesn't like to special order titles, any mail order source should be happy to. Alice --------________--------________-------- From ndrosen at erols.com Tue Mar 1 03:20:28 2005 From: ndrosen at erols.com (Nicholas Rosen) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:20:28 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Vat meat Message-ID: <001301c51e0d$a1a6d2c0$083a2c42@oemcomputer> Margali wrote: > United States Patent 6,835,390 > > Method for producing tissue engineered meat for consumption > > Abstract > > A non-human tissue engineered meat product and a method for > producing such meat product are disclosed. The meat product > comprises muscle cells that are grown ex vivo and is used for > food consumption. The muscle cells may be grown and attached to a > support structure and may be derived from any non-human cells. > The meat product may also comprise other cells such as fat cells > or cartilage cells, or both, that are grown ex vivo together with > the muscle cells. > > Any comment you can make, oh wonderous patent wizard? Well, since this has issued as a patent, it is my duty to presume that it is valid, which means that the claims directed to a useful, novel, and nonobvious invention, and adequately supported by the specification. If you think otherwise, you can petition for a re-examination, and submit any prior art you think relevant. I wonder whether the examiner who allowed it reads science fiction (there are quite a few fen at the Patent Office, but not necessarily the whole examining corps). It occurs to me that a rejection could have been based on, say, Smith, a paper teaching techniques for growing tissue in vitro, in view of Jones, an sf novel teaching people eating vat meat. Perhaps a rejection along those lines was made, and was overcome, due to lack of motivation to combine, or some such reason. Or maybe -- but I don't know, and it isn't my area. Anyway, the patent is presumptively valid. The Director isn't going to catch me saying otherwise. 8-) Regards, Nicholas Rosen, wondrous patent wizard Not speaking for the U.S.P.T.O., and not representing himself as an authority on patent law. --------________--------________-------- From alice at sfbooks.com Tue Mar 1 03:55:28 2005 From: alice at sfbooks.com (Alice Bentley) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:55:28 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: Liaden books (was: ConDFW con report) In-Reply-To: <209a74ed05022812101f94436c@mail.gmail.com> References: <209a74ed05022812101f94436c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Laura Gallagher mentioned: >I'd been thinking of buying a Liaden book, ... The book dealer said >it looked like the >other publisher - Ace? I forget which - would be bringing them back >out in paperbacks, so maybe I'll wait for that. The trade paperbacks are from Meisha Merlin, the mass market paperbacks from Ace. It looks to me that both versions of all the books are still in print. Sample chapters of some newer works as well as lots more information is at http://www.korval.com/liad.htm On the Liaden website, the recommended sequence is Agent of Change : 0441009913 (reprinted Oct 02) Conflict of Honors : 0441009646 (reprinted Aug 02) Carpe Diem : 0441010229 (reprinted Jan 03) Plan B : 0441010539 (reprinted May 03) Local Custom : 0441009115 (reprinted Feb 02) Scout's Progress I Dare That's not the way I would do it, though. I would start with Local Custom, then Scout's Progress (which are published together as PILOT'S CHOICE in Tpb), then go into the three that were first published in 1988: Conflict of Honors, Agent of Change then Carpe Diem (published together IN Tpb as PARTNERS IN NECESSITY) then finishing off with Plan B and I Dare. I really enjoyed these books. Fast paced space opera with a scoop of romance. Alice Your Erstwhile Bookseller --------________--------________-------- From louann at millerdome.com Tue Mar 1 05:27:06 2005 From: louann at millerdome.com (Louann Miller) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:27:06 -0600 Subject: [LMB] ConDFW con report OT: In-Reply-To: <20050228153806.X94007@idoru.cepheid.org> References: <209a74ed05022812101f94436c@mail.gmail.com> <209a74ed05022812101f94436c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050228232534.01f03928@mail07.powweb.com> At 03:46 PM 2/28/2005 -0600, Stephanie Folse wrote: >Yeah, this is sort of a Catch-22 situation - the central location of the >bar is a major reason for our success, because it forms a central focus >for the con since all teh panel rooms open out onto that area, but the >smoke collects in the atrium and by Saturday afternoon, it's incredibly >thick. We use the 12-floor presidential suite for the consuite in roder >to provide a smoke-free socializing zone, but since ti's not central, not >too many people gather there at any one time. > >We will probably be at this hotel again next year because at our size, >there's not too many affordable choices for our needs. Once we grow again, >we'll have to move. Any chance of the hotel temporarily designating the ground floor non-smoking during the next con? There has been a LOT of complaint about the smoke situation. --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Mar 1 06:39:32 2005 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:39:32 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Barrayaran Government In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050301063932.GA25300@ofb.net> On Thu, Feb 24, 2005 at 03:33:36AM -0600, Andrew Lambdin-Abraham wrote: > My understanding of Prime Ministers is that they are usually associated > with parliamentary forms of government,[1] expected to be able to pass > legislation through the designated representative legislature, are the > chief executive of their government in general, and establish national > policy in consultation with their cabinet. But think about where they came from. The original idea was of Ministers to the Crown -- people who would do things at the orders of the King or Queen, and in their name. Even now, British government is in the Queen's name, I believe, even though all real power lies with Parliament. The Prime Minister as you know it was the evolved result of Parliament wresting more and more power from the Crown. Barrayar isn't 18th century England, but more like Russia, or royal France; Ministers are employees of the Emperor. Prime Minister would simply be the head employee. Think Grand Vizier, or Chancellor, elsewhere. Or Presidential Chief of Staff, in the US, combined with Cabinet authority. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From bobug at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 12:21:04 2005 From: bobug at yahoo.com (The Sundance Kid) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 04:21:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Re: (OT) Take Back Your Government In-Reply-To: <200503010323.DAA30438@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050301122104.3606.qmail@web52005.mail.yahoo.com> I searched eBay, and there's a 1st Softcover Edition, 1992, for a whoppin' 195$ (However, you can "name your best offer" on it) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=378&item=6909645347&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V -Heather (And thanks - Working with Government, all I could think of with Textev was it was Text+acronym for E.V. :)) ===== When we walk to the edge of all the light we have and take the step into the darkness of the unknown, we must believe that one of two things will happen. There will be something solid for us to stand on or we will be taught to fly. - Frank Outlaw Sooner or later, you are going to learn, just as I did, that there is a difference between KNOWING the path and WALKING the path. -Morpheus "Luminous beings are we- not this crude matter." -Yoda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 --------________--------________-------- From sfolse at cepheid.org Tue Mar 1 14:03:38 2005 From: sfolse at cepheid.org (Stephanie Folse) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:03:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: [LMB] ConDFW con report OT: In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050228232534.01f03928@mail07.powweb.com> References: <209a74ed05022812101f94436c@mail.gmail.com> <209a74ed05022812101f94436c@mail.gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20050228232534.01f03928@mail07.powweb.com> Message-ID: <20050301080009.B56883@idoru.cepheid.org> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Louann Miller wrote: > Any chance of the hotel temporarily designating the ground floor non-smoking > during the next con? There has been a LOT of complaint about the smoke > situation. Nope, hotel's not willing to do that. Their suggestion was for us to ask the smokers with the con to step outside, but they weren't willing to ask non-convention hotel guests to do the same, and as long as even one person is smoking inside, the con smokers will stay inside. --Stephanie --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Tue Mar 1 15:15:44 2005 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:15:44 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Senior Birthday Tixie is Baaaaack Message-ID: <003701c51e71$8a508e40$dd54cece@puter> Hiya, Fellow Listies! Well, the month of March has sprung--along with an early Spring here in the hinterlands of Nuevo Mexico--and I shall once again be your TBT on Duty. The birthday database has re-migrated to the top of the paper shuffle on my desk , and the Quad Squad is already consulting, conspiring and planning heaven-knows-what silly celebratory antics. Should be fun. Heh. If anyone, especially new listies, wishes to be registered for a visit from the TBT and Helpers, please do it now; if you're not sure you are registered, go ahead and send the info, I don't mind repeats. But also please *register directly to my address* (spam issues with the birthday at dendarii dot com address). Send your date and any brief bio information you wish to: koolbeans at dfn dot com. However, a bit of apology-and-caveat-in-advance: I have several out of town trips on the schedule this month, plus (ooooo, shiny!) the new computer on the way, with possible--probable!--set-up and change-over issues, so delays and/or belateds are more than likely, er, likely. I'll do my best. Oh, and we'll also have a new Helper on board, not a Quaddie per se but an honorary member of the Squad. Hee, hee. I'm working on "translating" his "language." You'll see. And once again and as always, my greatest thanks to Beatrice and the ever-charming Small Dog and Not So Small Puppy, for their wonderful works in both January and February!!! Our Deputies are truly a blessing. {{{hugs}}} and {{{head pats}}} and {{{ear scritches}}} wing their way to you guys--distribute as appropriate! ~ Kay Carrasco, Senior Birthday Tixie, and the Quad Squad: Poe, Pi, Purrf, Ikkabod, and introducing...... Togo......... ===== ~~O8:> --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] --------________--------________-------- From rparks at lvhot.org Tue Mar 1 15:36:50 2005 From: rparks at lvhot.org (Robert Parks) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 07:36:50 -0800 Subject: [LMB] ConDFW con report OT: In-Reply-To: <20050301080009.B56883@idoru.cepheid.org> References: <209a74ed05022812101f94436c@mail.gmail.com> <209a74ed05022812101f94436c@mail.gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20050228232534.01f03928@mail07.powweb.com> <20050301080009.B56883@idoru.cepheid.org> Message-ID: <42248C12.30207@lvhot.org> Louann Miller wrote: >> Any chance of the hotel temporarily designating the ground floor >> non-smoking during the next con? There has been a LOT of complaint >> about the smoke situation. Stephanie Folse wrote: > Nope, hotel's not willing to do that. Their suggestion was for us to > ask the smokers with the con to step outside, but they weren't willing > to ask non-convention hotel guests to do the same, and as long as even > one person is smoking inside, the con smokers will stay inside. Ewww. In retrospect, I'm very glad I didn't go to ConDFW. Add one more thing to the list of reasons to avoid Texas (or any other state that permits indoor smoking). Robert not actually allergic, just hates the smell during and after being in a smoky area. Never mind the health issues. --------________--------________-------- From sfolse at cepheid.org Tue Mar 1 15:42:27 2005 From: sfolse at cepheid.org (Stephanie Folse) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:42:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: [LMB] ConDFW con report OT: In-Reply-To: <42248C12.30207@lvhot.org> References: <209a74ed05022812101f94436c@mail.gmail.com> <209a74ed05022812101f94436c@mail.gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20050228232534.01f03928@mail07.powweb.com> <20050301080009.B56883@idoru.cepheid.org> <42248C12.30207@lvhot.org> Message-ID: <20050301093912.W56883@idoru.cepheid.org> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Robert Parks wrote: > Ewww. In retrospect, I'm very glad I didn't go to ConDFW. Add one more thing > to the list of reasons to avoid Texas (or any other state that permits indoor > smoking). It's not a state thing. It's a city thing. If you're in Dallas, they passed a law a couple of years ago forbidding indoor smoking. However, the con is currently just outside of Dallas prper, in Richardson, which allows it. We *do* have the nonsmoking consuite with hot foods in the Presidential Suite up on the 12th floor for people to hang out in, but people don't seem to want to hang out there, probably because it's way up on the 12th floor. --Stephanie --------________--------________-------- From t.vinson at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 1 15:56:43 2005 From: t.vinson at sbcglobal.net (Thomas Vinson) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:56:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Re: ConDFW con report OT: Message-ID: <20050301155643.29314.qmail@web81002.mail.yahoo.com> Laura Gallagher asked for the title of a song. It's "The Eternal Flame (God Wrote in LISP Code)", by Bob Kanefsky. I learned it (to the extent my memory allows) from a downloaded mp3. I just noticed that RealPlayer classifies the song as blues. I'm not completely certain I would agree. I too was bothered by the smoke, but have to point out that it might well have been harder to get Brust as GoH if the con were completely non-smoking. Tom --------________--------________-------- From kevink45 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 1 16:06:12 2005 From: kevink45 at hotmail.com (Kevin Kennedy) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 11:06:12 -0500 Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust, was ConDFW In-Reply-To: <200503010323.DAA30438@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Well, I think you could start with _Phoenix Guards_ rather than the Vlad books. Just remember the style it that of someone who has OD'd on Dumas. I've heard Brust speak too, and enjoyed it. Have fun with the Liaden books too. Kevin Laura writes snip > >We bought two books and a bumpersticker in dealer's room. One was a >book that came out of a series of letters Brust and author Bull >exchanged, that he'd talked about Friday night. I got that one signed >by Brust. I couldn't find a paperback copy of _Phoenix Guards_, the >starter Brust book that had been recommended to me. > >Snip --------________--------________-------- From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Tue Mar 1 17:13:03 2005 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 12:13:03 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Brust recommendations Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.1.20050301121150.02e109c0@pop.mindspring.com> Stephanie Folse [who knows such things] recommends: >_Jhereg_ is the first book in that series, and you can find it currently >collected with the first three books in _The Book of Jhereg_. Apologies >for the format: it's a trade paperback. Actually, iirc it came out from the Science Fiction Book Club in a hardback edition last year or the year before. A used copy shouldn't be that hard to find. Hth, Jerrie --------________--------________-------- From celticdragonfly at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 17:27:57 2005 From: celticdragonfly at gmail.com (Laura Gallagher) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:27:57 -0600 Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT:, was ConDFW In-Reply-To: References: <200503010323.DAA30438@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <209a74ed050301092748054780@mail.gmail.com> I wrote: > I couldn't find a paperback copy of _Phoenix Guards_, the > >starter Brust book that had been recommended to me. Kevin wrote: > Well, I think you could start with _Phoenix Guards_ rather than the Vlad > books. Just remember the style it that of someone who has OD'd on Dumas. It had been explained to me that he had two series going on in the same universe, one very dark/noir and antihero, one that read like Dumas. I *like* Dumas. I don't really need more depression in my life, though. So I said "Point me at the start of the Dumas-like ones!" I'm starting to do a lot more librarying, albeit inconveniently - I have a courtesy card from Watauga, and TexShare should let me checkout from Fort Worth, even if I can't do the cool online holds, so this is starting to make up for how bad my local library is. So hopefully I'll get it soon. Just at the moment my book load in the near future has interestingly changed, though. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Tue Mar 1 17:22:47 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 12:22:47 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: ConDFW con report OT: In-Reply-To: <20050301155643.29314.qmail@web81002.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050301155643.29314.qmail@web81002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050301122156.034df5d0@pop.east.cox.net> At 10:56 03/01/2005, Thomas Vinson wrote: >Laura Gallagher asked for the title of a song. >It's "The Eternal Flame (God Wrote in LISP Code)", >by Bob Kanefsky. Shouldn't that be "The Eternal Flame ((((God Wrote in LISP Code))))"? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From celticdragonfly at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 17:30:55 2005 From: celticdragonfly at gmail.com (Laura Gallagher) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:30:55 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.1.20050301121150.02e109c0@pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.1.20050301121150.02e109c0@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <209a74ed0503010930a2dc48d@mail.gmail.com> WOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! I JUST GOT AN EMAIL FROM FIRST LOOK AT HARPERCOLLINS! Happy happy happy dance! Bounce bounce bounce! "You have been selected to review The Hallowed Hunt by Lois McMaster Bujold. The Advanced Readers Edition is shipping today." I suppose I should wait a day or two before starting to obsessively haunt the mailbox. Lois, thank you thank you thank you for posting about that! Karl said he got a "sorry, but we'll tell you when it's for sale" email. I told him he can read mine when he's done. (But he better be nice to me ;-P) Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From scott.r.padget at boeing.com Tue Mar 1 17:43:22 2005 From: scott.r.padget at boeing.com (Padget, Scott R) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:43:22 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Invention of the wirehead? Message-ID: <62F80D7D3ED3234B907FF0004C56CB8901904298@xch-se-20.se.nos.b oeing.com> Ray Drouillard notes: > http://www.halifaxherald.com/stories/2005/02/27/f124.raw.html > > Larry Niven wrote of people who have wires implanted into the pleasure > center of their brains. Such people are known as 'wireheads'. I wouldn't call this development the 'invention' of the wirehead. This is more like the refinement of wirehead technology into a genuinely useful therapeutic tool. Wireheading (in the sense of implanting electrodes into the pleasure centers of the brain in order to produce an intense euphoric effect described as better than food, drugs, or sex) has been around for decades--IIRC, the technique was invented in the 1950s or 1960s, as a non-drug method of treating depression. It was as unsuccessful at treating depression as cocaine would be, with similar behavioral consequences. The main reason it never took off as a popular alternative to recreational drug use/abuse is that it is in fact *brain surgery* and thus difficult to supply to abusers via black-market channels. ISTM after reading the article that the current state of the art allows targeting the areas of the brain responsible for regulating sadness, and controlling current levels so that the affected areas are active but not overwhelmed--a more refined (and hopefully more successful) version of the technique. Pilot Padget--swamped by RL for the past couple weeks, but back now (I hope) --------________--------________-------- From sfolse at cepheid.org Tue Mar 1 18:18:37 2005 From: sfolse at cepheid.org (Stephanie Folse) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:18:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT:, was ConDFW In-Reply-To: <209a74ed050301092748054780@mail.gmail.com> References: <200503010323.DAA30438@talia3.herald.co.uk> <209a74ed050301092748054780@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050301120619.T64849@idoru.cepheid.org> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Laura Gallagher wrote: > I *like* Dumas. I don't really need more depression in my life, > though. So I said "Point me at the start of the Dumas-like ones!" Dark, noir, and anti-hero? That's a description completely alien to the books *I* read. Well, anti-hero fits to an extent - the main character is an assassin after all - but I'd call them more adventure than anything else, and teh character changes and matures. Brust tends to tell each story in a different style, which I find enjoyable, but I wouldn't call the books depressing. Depressing events happen on occasion, as in all books, but there's only so much darkenss a wisecracking assassin and his wisecracking sidekick can carry. Books in the series go up and down the happy/sad scale as Vlad gains in maturity, but they have never depressed *me*, and the slowly-unfolding larger scale of teh world and the plottings of the gods are fascinating to me. Phoenix Guards is more depressing for me, because of the inevitability of certain events, shall we say, even though the style is Dumas-pastiche. There's a heck of a lot of pathos in that series. You are really going to miss a lot of depth in the culture and the events that are occuring in the Phoenix Guard series if you don't read the others first. Events depicted in TPG are fundamental to the way the Jhereg world is and they won't have that extra layer of meaning that takes the books from entertaining to excellent if you're not familiar with them. I've said my piece, now I'll shut up. :) > I'm starting to do a lot more librarying, albeit inconveniently - I > have a courtesy card from Watauga, and TexShare should let me checkout > from Fort Worth, even if I can't do the cool online holds, so this is > starting to make up for how bad my local library is. So hopefully > I'll get it soon. Just at the moment my book load in the near future > has interestingly changed, though. There's also interlibrary loan, which should allow your local library to get just about any book wihtout you ahving to drive across town, if your library subscribes to it. The Fort Worth library should definitely have the service. --Stephanie --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Tue Mar 1 18:18:31 2005 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:18:31 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Fictionwise special! Message-ID: <20050301181831.GB14112@fireopal.org> Just in case anyone is interested, I just got the following announcement: BUY "Shards of Honor" [Vorkosigan Series #1] by Lois McMaster Bujold, and get "Barrayar" [Vorkosigan Series #2] by Lois McMaster Bujold Free! That's at www.fictionwise.com. Shards is listed at $7.49. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From mtraber251 at earthlink.net Tue Mar 1 18:28:40 2005 From: mtraber251 at earthlink.net (M. Traber) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:28:40 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! In-Reply-To: <209a74ed0503010930a2dc48d@mail.gmail.com> References: <6.2.1.2.1.20050301121150.02e109c0@pop.mindspring.com> <209a74ed0503010930a2dc48d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4224B458.1070404@earthlink.net> Laura Gallagher wrote: > "You have been selected to review The Hallowed Hunt by Lois McMaster > Bujold. The Advanced Readers Edition is shipping today." *sniffle* I got turned down=( -- -- For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling --------________--------________-------- From alice at sfbooks.com Tue Mar 1 18:29:12 2005 From: alice at sfbooks.com (Alice Bentley) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:29:12 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Re: (OT) Take Back Your Government In-Reply-To: <20050301122104.3606.qmail@web52005.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050301122104.3606.qmail@web52005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Heather pointed out: >I searched eBay, and there's a 1st Softcover Edition, 1992, for a >whoppin' 195$ (However, you can "name your best offer" on it) which led me to check my fav used book source, www.abebooks.com, where there are seven copies listed, prices ranging from $50.00 to $75.00. But the Baen website (usually pretty accurate) still lists the title on their "in print" section, with a $5.99 cover price. Amazon, however, lists it as a used book (copies from $42.00 and up), so that's more evidence that it's not readily available. If I was still a bookstore, I could call the Simon and Schuster warehouse and find out for sure. But the evidence is mounting for it being a tough one to get. Alice --------________--------________-------- From louann at millerdome.com Tue Mar 1 18:34:14 2005 From: louann at millerdome.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 12:34:14 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Re: ConDFW con report OT: In-Reply-To: <20050301155643.29314.qmail@web81002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050301123325.017ded78@mail07.powweb.com> At 07:56 AM 3/1/2005 -0800, Thomas Vinson wrote: >I too was bothered by the smoke, but have to point >out that it might well have been harder to get Brust >as GoH if the con were completely non-smoking. Plug/datum: Fencon has the equally smoky Leslie Fish as filk GOH this year, at a con hotel with no indoor smoking except in your (if designated smoking) hotel room. --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Tue Mar 1 18:45:44 2005 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:45:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT:, was ConDFW In-Reply-To: <20050301120619.T64849@idoru.cepheid.org> References: <200503010323.DAA30438@talia3.herald.co.uk> <209a74ed050301092748054780@mail.gmail.com> <20050301120619.T64849@idoru.cepheid.org> Message-ID: <20050301104353.P72362@shell.rawbw.com> > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Laura Gallagher wrote: > > > I *like* Dumas. I don't really need more depression in my life, > > though. So I said "Point me at the start of the Dumas-like ones!" There are a lot of authors I won't read because they're depressing, but Brust isn't one of them. I find all the Vlad Taltos books I've read (admittedly, not all of them) to be fun even when they are dark, and Vlad himself to be hysterically funny. I'd be on the list if it weren't for their weird and annoying policy of posting everyone's whole real name publicly on the internet, which I imagine drives a lot of folks away. ~malfoy :/ ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From patgund at earthlink.net Tue Mar 1 18:48:52 2005 From: patgund at earthlink.net (Patrick McKinnion) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:48:52 -0800 Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust, was ConDFW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <29a444a4cc2a6c2afa25c034f1e0b884@earthlink.net> On Mar 1, 2005, at 8:06 AM, Kevin Kennedy wrote: > Well, I think you could start with _Phoenix Guards_ rather than the > Vlad books. Just remember the style it that of someone who has OD'd on > Dumas. I've heard Brust speak too, and enjoyed it. I'm going to have to second this. Other than location and some *very* minor characters, they don't have a lot in common with the Taltos books. "Phoenix Guards" and "Five Hundred Years After" are the two I would recommend to start with, *then* the Taltos series. (I've also read two of the latest ones, "Path of the Dead", and "The Lord of Castle Black", which take place a little over 200 years after "Five Hundred Years After".) The thing to remember is that Brust deliberately set out to make the style in "Phoenix Guards" and "Five Hundred" rather highflown and wordy, like a zombie who just ate Dumas's brain. > Have fun with the Liaden books too. You know, I've tried twice now to get into that series. I just can't seem to manage it. - Patrick McKinnion Red meat isn't bad for you. Fuzzy, blue-green meat is bad for you. ---------------------------- (http://home.earthlink.net/~patgund) LJ - http://patgund.livejournal.com/ Patrick's Ever-Growing Tagline Collection: (http://home.earthlink.net/~patgund/tagline/) --------________--------________-------- From patgund at earthlink.net Tue Mar 1 18:52:41 2005 From: patgund at earthlink.net (Patrick McKinnion) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:52:41 -0800 Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT:, was ConDFW In-Reply-To: <209a74ed050301092748054780@mail.gmail.com> References: <200503010323.DAA30438@talia3.herald.co.uk> <209a74ed050301092748054780@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 1, 2005, at 9:27 AM, Laura Gallagher wrote: > It had been explained to me that he had two series going on in the > same universe, one very dark/noir and antihero, one that read like > Dumas. > > I *like* Dumas. I don't really need more depression in my life, > though. So I said "Point me at the start of the Dumas-like ones!" *Some* of the Taltos books are dark, (and it's inescapable, Vlad Taltos is a criminal boss, and a killer. He just keeps getting caught up into doing heroic things) Others are actually quite funny. And one, (Orca), is, in my opinion, a complete waste of time. We all have off days I guess. But I can see you liking the Dumas-type ones. - Patrick McKinnion ...on the internet, no one knows you're a minifig..... ---------------------------- (http://home.earthlink.net/~patgund) LJ - http://patgund.livejournal.com/ Patrick's Ever-Growing Tagline Collection: (http://home.earthlink.net/~patgund/tagline/) --------________--------________-------- From cgonsalves at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 18:57:56 2005 From: cgonsalves at gmail.com (Cynthia Gonsalves) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:57:56 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! In-Reply-To: <4224B458.1070404@earthlink.net> References: <6.2.1.2.1.20050301121150.02e109c0@pop.mindspring.com> <209a74ed0503010930a2dc48d@mail.gmail.com> <4224B458.1070404@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <770ae0ba0503011057538a2318@mail.gmail.com> I got turned down too, but congratulations to any listies who have gotten picked! I'll just have to wait for May. Cynthia --------________--------________-------- From celticdragonfly at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 19:08:15 2005 From: celticdragonfly at gmail.com (Laura Gallagher) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:08:15 -0600 Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT:, was ConDFW In-Reply-To: <20050301120619.T64849@idoru.cepheid.org> References: <200503010323.DAA30438@talia3.herald.co.uk> <209a74ed050301092748054780@mail.gmail.com> <20050301120619.T64849@idoru.cepheid.org> Message-ID: <209a74ed0503011108c8913cc@mail.gmail.com> Stephanie wrote: > Dark, noir, and anti-hero? That's a description completely alien to the > books *I* read. [snip] >. Depressing events happen on occasion, as in all > books, but there's only so much darkenss a wisecracking assassin and his > wisecracking sidekick can carry. [snip] > You are really going to miss a lot of depth in the culture and the events > that are occuring in the Phoenix Guard series if you don't read the others > first. Right. More data is good, thanks. Well, I did the Watauga library run yesterday, picked up 3 more books, but then got a call that Karl was going home, and decided to do the main Fort Worth library run another day. Watauga didn't have any Brust on the shelves, so that search hasn't been done yet. I will keep this in mind. > There's also interlibrary loan, which should allow your local library to > get just about any book wihtout you ahving to drive across town, if your > library subscribes to it. The Fort Worth library should definitely have > the service. Saginaw charges significantly for it. Evil bad library. Only Heyers are a couple of her mysteries, NO Bujold, and they won't even let me give them any! [insert rest of the standard rant here] Driving across town currently seems my best option. And hey, difficult though it can be with the kids, it gets me out of the house occasionally, so probably a good idea. Thanks for the additional info. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From batwrangler at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 19:13:49 2005 From: batwrangler at gmail.com (Batwrangler) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:13:49 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! In-Reply-To: <209a74ed0503010930a2dc48d@mail.gmail.com> References: <6.2.1.2.1.20050301121150.02e109c0@pop.mindspring.com> <209a74ed0503010930a2dc48d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: [Laura got review copy, Karl didn't.] I got turned down, too, but I'm glad someone on the list got chosen. Congrats! -- aol: gwynedd gmail and LJ: batwrangler http://www.batwrangler.net --------________--------________-------- From johnamdarnell at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 19:36:05 2005 From: johnamdarnell at gmail.com (John A.M. Darnell) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:36:05 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Book club questions (moving OT:) In-Reply-To: References: <62.4fb0f731.2f54a942@aol.com> Message-ID: <3fd6b3e605030111363c0301d2@mail.gmail.com> Not to be too strenuous in my disagreement, because much of what you say is true about Heinlein getting pessimistic, but he was also not afraid to play to the market. That's why you find that THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS written in the mid-sixties, is about rebellion against the status quo with collectivist roots, and why FRIDAY is so willing to accommodate gay/lesbian relationships. Look at NUMBER OF THE BEAST, and consider how his women acted compared to, say STARMAN JONES, or HAVE SPACESUIT, WILL TRAVEL. Don't get me wrong, in his early books, women were not the equals of men, nevertheless they were better developed than most SF writers of that time. Even so, NOTB was the first novel that I can recall where a woman was put in charge, and I personally attribute that to Heinlein's attempting to write fiction in tune with the times. Finally, SIASL is an excellent picture of all of the above, because the first third (before MVS became a religious figure) was written twenty years before the last two-thirds, and the difference in how women were portrayed is striking, among other things. Take care, all. R, John On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:36:07 -0700, PAT MATHEWS wrote: > >From: CatMtn at aol.com > > > >Glad to meet another Heinlein fan. The first science fiction book I ever > >read was _The Puppet Masters_, and I was hooked for life. Both on > >Heinlein and > >on science fiction. There are authors I like better now, such as the one > >whom we all love and respect or we wouldn't belong to this list, but I > >still > >love Heinlein. A lot of listies don't care for some of his attitudes, but > >I > >was learning to read about the time he started writing, so I may have a > >little > >better feel for the times. Also, a lot of his earlier so-called attitudes > >toward women were directed by what would sell at the time. > > I started on Heinlein back when he was publishing in mainstream magazines > which actually published short stories regularly. (Before we got the box > pulp fiction was buried in. But these were slicks!) Compared with the > attitude towards women prevalent between the time I learned to read and the > time my children did, Heinlein's was totally liberating. Delilah and the > Space Rigger gave voice to my own aspirations - and actually quoted a law > passed, half as a joke, 18 years later! > > He was a man of his time, born 1907. One huge 21st Century mistake (also > made in the 19th, egregiously!) is to look back at people of other times and > sniff at them because they have not reached our own pinnacles of > enlightenment or sensitivity. By the standards of his own generation, he was > extremely enlightened - and a rattling good storyteller. I'm only sorry he > had such trouble accepting the turn society had taken by, say, 1980. His > later books (Cat among them) suffer from it. However, I dearly love Pixel > the Cat. > > > > >I still have my hardcover of The Cat, too, mostly for the sake of the > >collection. All through reading it, I kept thinking *But things are going > >to work > >out, right?* Wrong. It reminded me of a lot of the doomsday stuff that > >was > >popular then, which I never liked--there's enough real grief around that I > >don't have to get it through my reading for entertainment. > > Yeah. RAH was getting pessimistic along about then. The progress he expected > was so Not Happening. FRIDAY has a huge dose of said pessimism, but then, > FRIDAY shows a culture on the verge of a hugely convulsive crisis, which > Heinlein knew all about, being a WWII veteran. > > PS - anybody have a copy of his TAKE BACK YOUR GOVERNMENT that they want to > let out of their hands? Name a price. > > Pat > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > --------________--------________-------- From johnamdarnell at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 19:39:46 2005 From: johnamdarnell at gmail.com (John A.M. Darnell) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:39:46 -0600 Subject: [LMB] GMail invites In-Reply-To: References: <62.4fb0f731.2f54a942@aol.com> Message-ID: <3fd6b3e605030111392b1b56dc@mail.gmail.com> I just started using GMail (the Google experiment) and I noticed that I have an option to invite anyone who wants to, to join GMail. Please give me a reading on whether you all would consider such a thing to be spam. I HATE spam, and will ignore said option if the general consensus is that utilizing that option would be tantamount to spamming. On the other hand, if you *do* want a GMail invite, send me email directly and that way we can take it off line. R, John --------________--------________-------- From johnamdarnell at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 19:42:21 2005 From: johnamdarnell at gmail.com (John A.M. Darnell) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:42:21 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! In-Reply-To: <4224B458.1070404@earthlink.net> References: <6.2.1.2.1.20050301121150.02e109c0@pop.mindspring.com> <209a74ed0503010930a2dc48d@mail.gmail.com> <4224B458.1070404@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3fd6b3e6050301114214680e1b@mail.gmail.com> Hey, how does one get invited to review an advanced copy of anything by LMB? I would *jump* at the chance! R, John On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:28:40 -0500, M. Traber wrote: > Laura Gallagher wrote: > > > "You have been selected to review The Hallowed Hunt by Lois McMaster > > Bujold. The Advanced Readers Edition is shipping today." > > *sniffle* I got turned down=( > > -- > -- > For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" > But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; > An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; > But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! > Rudyard Kipling > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > --------________--------________-------- From dschluter at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 19:46:48 2005 From: dschluter at gmail.com (d schluter) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:46:48 -0600 Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT:, was ConDFW In-Reply-To: <20050301120619.T64849@idoru.cepheid.org> References: <200503010323.DAA30438@talia3.herald.co.uk> <209a74ed050301092748054780@mail.gmail.com> <20050301120619.T64849@idoru.cepheid.org> Message-ID: I found Aythra dpressing on the whole, and Orca not alot of fun, but even with the tragity involved in Issola, the book on the whole wasn't depressing. I have most of his books, and really wanted to make it to that con, but sigh, lack o vehical and funds simultaniously rather prevent con going... On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:18:37 -0600 (CST), Stephanie Folse wrote: > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Laura Gallagher wrote: > > Dark, noir, and anti-hero? That's a description completely alien to the > books *I* read. Well, anti-hero fits to an extent - the main character is > an assassin after all - but I'd call them more adventure than anything > else, and teh character changes and matures. Brust tends to tell each > story in a different style, which I find enjoyable, but I wouldn't call > the books depressing. Depressing events happen on occasion, as in all > books, but there's only so much darkenss a wisecracking assassin and his > wisecracking sidekick can carry. Books in the series go up and down the > happy/sad scale as Vlad gains in maturity, but they have never depressed > *me*, and the slowly-unfolding larger scale of teh world and the plottings > of the gods are fascinating to me. -- Raven The Perky Goth --------________--------________-------- From a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu Tue Mar 1 19:48:18 2005 From: a.abraham at mail.utexas.edu (Andrew Lambdin-Abraham) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:48:18 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! In-Reply-To: <209a74ed0503010930a2dc48d@mail.gmail.com> References: <6.2.1.2.1.20050301121150.02e109c0@pop.mindspring.com> <209a74ed0503010930a2dc48d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2947212def222b63aac61015e1070c25@mail.utexas.edu> On 1/03/2005, at 11:30 AM, Laura Gallagher wrote: > "You have been selected to review The Hallowed Hunt by Lois McMaster > Bujold. The Advanced Readers Edition is shipping today." Hooray!!! Umm... passaround? ;-) Actually, there is a fencing tournament in the Dallas area the 19th and 20th, end of Spring Break for me. Shall I come up and read it beforehand? Andrew - who wasn't selected to review --------________--------________-------- From RayLists at quixnet.net Tue Mar 1 18:58:32 2005 From: RayLists at quixnet.net (Ray) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:58:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT:, was ConDFW In-Reply-To: <209a74ed050301092748054780@mail.gmail.com> References: <200503010323.DAA30438@talia3.herald.co.uk> <209a74ed050301092748054780@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4224BB58.1000108@quixnet.net> Laura Gallagher wrote: >I wrote: > > >>I couldn't find a paperback copy of _Phoenix Guards_, the >> >> >>>starter Brust book that had been recommended to me. >>> >>> > >Kevin wrote: > > >>Well, I think you could start with _Phoenix Guards_ rather than the Vlad >>books. Just remember the style it that of someone who has OD'd on Dumas. >> >> > >It had been explained to me that he had two series going on in the >same universe, one very dark/noir and antihero, one that read like >Dumas. > >I *like* Dumas. I don't really need more depression in my life, >though. So I said "Point me at the start of the Dumas-like ones!" > >I'm starting to do a lot more librarying, albeit inconveniently - I >have a courtesy card from Watauga, and TexShare should let me checkout >from Fort Worth, even if I can't do the cool online holds, so this is >starting to make up for how bad my local library is. So hopefully >I'll get it soon. Just at the moment my book load in the near future >has interestingly changed, though. > >Laura Gallagher > > Are you saying that the Vlad Taltos books are dark? I found them to be quite entertaining, actually. So what if Vlad is a paid assassin with a wise-cracking flying lizard on his shoulder? I like the way that the Vlad character develops. He ends up being a very caring person, and I have never really seen him as a villain. After all, he only kilt them what needed killin'. ;-) Ray Ray -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.5 - Release Date: 3/1/05 --------________--------________-------- From celticdragonfly at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 19:54:14 2005 From: celticdragonfly at gmail.com (Laura Gallagher) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:54:14 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! In-Reply-To: <3fd6b3e6050301114214680e1b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6.2.1.2.1.20050301121150.02e109c0@pop.mindspring.com> <209a74ed0503010930a2dc48d@mail.gmail.com> <4224B458.1070404@earthlink.net> <3fd6b3e6050301114214680e1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <209a74ed0503011154759db45d@mail.gmail.com> > Hey, how does one get invited to review an advanced copy of anything > by LMB? I would *jump* at the chance! > > R, > John Too late for this one, but you can still sign up as one of their reviewers: http://www.harpercollins.com/firstlook/ Lois Bujold posted this for us a while back. You can tell them what types of books interest you. About the program: http://www.harpercollins.com/firstlook/about.asp FAQ http://www.harpercollins.com/firstlook/faq.asp Laura --------________--------________-------- From celticdragonfly at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 19:57:32 2005 From: celticdragonfly at gmail.com (Laura Gallagher) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:57:32 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! In-Reply-To: <2947212def222b63aac61015e1070c25@mail.utexas.edu> References: <6.2.1.2.1.20050301121150.02e109c0@pop.mindspring.com> <209a74ed0503010930a2dc48d@mail.gmail.com> <2947212def222b63aac61015e1070c25@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <209a74ed05030111575b9b3a31@mail.gmail.com> > > "You have been selected to review The Hallowed Hunt by Lois McMaster > > Bujold. The Advanced Readers Edition is shipping today." Andrew wrote: > Umm... passaround? ;-) This one doesn't get mailed around, sorry. Having once lent a bunch of my Bujolds out, and having had to go through a LOT of ugly misery to get them back, Karl and I are both really paranoid about it. > Actually, there is a fencing tournament in the Dallas area the 19th and > 20th, end of Spring Break for me. Shall I come up and read it > beforehand? Sounds great. Having people come visit us and read it here is much better. Laura --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Mar 1 20:07:54 2005 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:07:54 -0800 Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT:, was ConDFW In-Reply-To: References: <200503010323.DAA30438@talia3.herald.co.uk> <209a74ed050301092748054780@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050301200754.GA23854@ofb.net> On Tue, Mar 01, 2005 at 10:52:41AM -0800, Patrick McKinnion wrote: > up into doing heroic things) Others are actually quite funny. > And one, (Orca), is, in my opinion, a complete waste of time. We all Two people have panned Orca, so let me speak up for it: I liked it, and agree with Brust himself that it is what Yendi was trying to be. I liked Athyra too, partly for the variety -- a 3rd person Vlad book, not centered on Vlad! Dark, but not as depressing as _Teckla_. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From t.vinson at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 1 20:26:46 2005 From: t.vinson at sbcglobal.net (Thomas Vinson) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:26:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] OT: song title/source query Message-ID: <20050301202646.17825.qmail@web81009.mail.yahoo.com> This is tangentially related to ConDFW, since Brust sang the song at his concert. I also heard it at (I believe) FenCon last year, but can't remember the title or author. The refrain starts out: We walked 20 miles to the schoolhouse barefoot, and uphill both ways through blizzards in winter and summer, back in the good old days... When Fortran was not even Three- (two-, one-) tran... Anyone familiar with this? I tried Google, but aside from learning that there actually is a computer language named Twotran had no luck (one dead link and a few short quotes). Since none of the other developers in my shop had been born yet when I finished high school I thought this might be a good source for intra-office email sigs. Tom --------________--------________-------- From bo at dendarii.com Tue Mar 1 20:35:10 2005 From: bo at dendarii.com (Bo Johansson) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:35:10 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Fictionwise special! References: <20050301181831.GB14112@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <00f501c51e9e$29ed97f0$c56c72d5@kd6k1pdjhhwk1ah> On Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:18 PM [GMT+1 or +2], Scott Raun wrote: > > BUY "Shards of Honor" [Vorkosigan Series #1] by Lois McMaster > Bujold, and get "Barrayar" [Vorkosigan Series #2] by Lois > McMaster Bujold Free! > > That's at www.fictionwise.com. Shards is listed at $7.49. I think you will get better value at Baen Webscription if you buy "Cordelias Honor" instead. I think it costs only USD 5.00 or 6.00. Or if you buy the July 2003 bundle you get "Cordelias Honor" and "Young Miles" plus four other titles for USD 15.00. // Bo Johansson --------________--------________-------- From karl.gallagher at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 20:40:54 2005 From: karl.gallagher at gmail.com (Karl Gallagher) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:40:54 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: song title/source query In-Reply-To: <20050301202646.17825.qmail@web81009.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050301202646.17825.qmail@web81009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9660cc680503011240663dd387@mail.gmail.com> When I Was a Boy, Frank Hayes http://www.stevemacdonald.org/lyrics/wiwab.html "And we programmed in ones and in zeros And sometimes we ran out of ones." I love that line . . . -- Karl Gallagher http://www.livejournal.com/users/selenite/ --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Tue Mar 1 20:47:01 2005 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:47:01 -0000 Subject: [LMB] Fictionwise special! Message-ID: <200503012047.UAA10050@talia3.herald.co.uk> Yep, but you can buy _Cordelia's Honor_ (both books as an Omnibus) as an individual ebook from Baen http://www.webscription.net/ for $5.00 http://www.webscription.net/baen/order_singles.asp?filter=Lois+McMaster+Bujo ld Young Miles, Miles, Mystery and Mayhem, Miles Errant are also $5.00 ea as is Diplomatic Immunity. Or buy the July 2003 Webscription for $US15.00 and get _Cordelia's Honor_ AND _Young Miles_ (tWA + tVG + MoM) and four other fine books. Little Egret > Date: 01 March 2005 18:18 > > Just in case anyone is interested, I just got the following announcement: > > BUY "Shards of Honor" [Vorkosigan Series #1] by Lois McMaster Bujold, > and get "Barrayar" [Vorkosigan Series #2] by Lois McMaster Bujold > Free! > > That's at www.fictionwise.com. Shards is listed at $7.49. --------________--------________-------- From sfolse at cepheid.org Tue Mar 1 20:59:27 2005 From: sfolse at cepheid.org (Stephanie Folse) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:59:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT:, was ConDFW In-Reply-To: <209a74ed0503011108c8913cc@mail.gmail.com> References: <200503010323.DAA30438@talia3.herald.co.uk> <209a74ed050301092748054780@mail.gmail.com> <20050301120619.T64849@idoru.cepheid.org> <209a74ed0503011108c8913cc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050301145147.S68636@idoru.cepheid.org> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Laura Gallagher wrote: > Right. More data is good, thanks. Well, I guess it's all YMMV, but I'd suggest reading a book or two of the Jhereg series - they're very short - to decide. If you just can't stand it, then go to the Phoenix Guard series. :) > Saginaw charges significantly for it. Evil bad library. Only Heyers > are a couple of her mysteries, NO Bujold, and they won't even let me > give them any! [insert rest of the standard rant here] Evil, indeed. Well, if the Fort Worth library doens't completely supply all your needs, the PLano library system allows anyone in the metroplex to get a card and they've always been helpful to me. They have a document delivery service, which means that if the library in teh system that has the material you want is not the one you go to, you can ask them to get it, and it'll arrive at the branch you go to within a couple of days. And the ILL is free. Rather a drive for you, but when you need it, it's good to know it's there. > Driving across town currently seems my best option. And hey, > difficult though it can be with the kids, it gets me out of the house > occasionally, so probably a good idea. You know, that *is* an advantage... :) --Stephanie --------________--------________-------- From dschluter at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 21:21:15 2005 From: dschluter at gmail.com (d schluter) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:21:15 -0600 Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT:, was ConDFW In-Reply-To: <20050301145147.S68636@idoru.cepheid.org> References: <200503010323.DAA30438@talia3.herald.co.uk> <209a74ed050301092748054780@mail.gmail.com> <20050301120619.T64849@idoru.cepheid.org> <209a74ed0503011108c8913cc@mail.gmail.com> <20050301145147.S68636@idoru.cepheid.org> Message-ID: Humm I wonder what happend to them, I originally read all of these from the Ft. Worth libray, though that was starting about ten years ago..... On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:59:27 -0600 (CST), Stephanie Folse wrote: > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Laura Gallagher wrote: > > > Saginaw charges significantly for it. Evil bad library. Only Heyers > > are a couple of her mysteries, NO Bujold, and they won't even let me > > give them any! [insert rest of the standard rant here] > > Evil, indeed. Well, if the Fort Worth library doens't completely supply > all your needs, the PLano library system allows anyone in the metroplex to > get a card and they've always been helpful to me. -- Raven The Perky Goth --------________--------________-------- From robert at warnickelittler.com Tue Mar 1 21:49:33 2005 From: robert at warnickelittler.com (robert) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:49:33 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! In-Reply-To: <200503012123.VAA10285@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <00aa01c51ea8$91438ef0$6c01a8c0@D6FL1B21> > > I got turned down too, but congratulations to any listies who have > gotten picked! I'll just have to wait for May. > > Cynthia YEA!!! Jumping up and down, and doing back flips.... I got picked! :) Random chance is a good thing!!!! Only one problem... what do I do with this ARC I have coming to me as a result of excessive Ebay bidding? ------------ Robert W --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Tue Mar 1 21:48:20 2005 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:48:20 -0600 Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT:, was ConDFW In-Reply-To: <20050301200754.GA23854@ofb.net> References: <200503010323.DAA30438@talia3.herald.co.uk> <209a74ed050301092748054780@mail.gmail.com> <20050301200754.GA23854@ofb.net> Message-ID: <20050301214820.GD21981@fireopal.org> On Tue, Mar 01, 2005 at 12:07:54PM -0800, Damien Sullivan wrote: > Two people have panned Orca, so let me speak up for it: I liked it, > and agree with Brust himself that it is what Yendi was trying to be. > I liked Athyra too, partly for the variety -- a 3rd person Vlad > book, not centered on Vlad! Dark, but not as depressing as > _Teckla_. Steve was writing about Vlad's marriage breaking up at the same time as Steve's marriage was breaking up. I find that explains a lot about _Teckla_. For those of you who didn't already know - Dragaera was originally a fantasy role-playing game that Steve starting writing novels about. I have a copy of _Jhereg_ signed by all the characters. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From harimad2001 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 21:53:06 2005 From: harimad2001 at yahoo.com (J Selin) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:53:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT: In-Reply-To: <200503012123.VAA10285@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050301215307.17411.qmail@web53710.mail.yahoo.com> I find it curious that I could never get into Brust. TPG was recommended to me by the same guy who recommended Bujold *and* Kay; usually he's a good recommender. But not this time. I've tried 3-4 Brusts and was put off by them all. The distant, stuffy, fulsome language did it for me. That said, I did enjoy "Freedom & Necessity" which he wrote with Emma Bull. It took me a couple times through to comprehend the whole complex plot, and to remember to remember who was writing which letter to whom, and I had to do some research into mid 19th C. Brit politics - which made it all the more fun. YMMV. Harimad __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 --------________--------________-------- From ginni.berger at juno.com Tue Mar 1 21:47:35 2005 From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:47:35 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! Message-ID: <20050301.165439.3256.2.ginni.berger@juno.com> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:28:40 -0500 "M. Traber" writes: > Laura Gallagher wrote: > > > "You have been selected to review The Hallowed Hunt by Lois > McMaster > > Bujold. The Advanced Readers Edition is shipping today." > > *sniffle* I got turned down=( > Margali, dearest, so did I. By the way, do you still have my enya and Simon & Garfunkel cds? Ginnilee Lady Lavender of Teal --------________--------________-------- From kuvwgillis at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 22:07:41 2005 From: kuvwgillis at yahoo.com (Paula Gillis) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:07:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! In-Reply-To: <00aa01c51ea8$91438ef0$6c01a8c0@D6FL1B21> Message-ID: <20050301220742.32814.qmail@web54402.mail.yahoo.com> --- robert wrote: > I got picked! :) Random chance is a good thing!!!! Congratulations! > Only one problem... what do I do with this ARC I have coming to me as > a result of excessive Ebay bidding? Ummm ... donate it to certain needy list members? (hint hint) Or confirm Pavlov's results? drool drool drool, Paula Gillis ===== "Yeah, you know, in hindsight you'd like to have back that second-to-last interception." --Andy Reid --------________--------________-------- From sfolse at cepheid.org Tue Mar 1 22:31:50 2005 From: sfolse at cepheid.org (Stephanie Folse) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:31:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT: In-Reply-To: <20050301215307.17411.qmail@web53710.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050301215307.17411.qmail@web53710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050301162753.N68636@idoru.cepheid.org> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, J Selin wrote: > I find it curious that I could never get into Brust. TPG was > recommended to me by the same guy who recommended Bujold *and* Kay; > usually he's a good recommender. But not this time. I've tried 3-4 > Brusts and was put off by them all. The distant, stuffy, fulsome > language did it for me. With the series that starts with _The Phoenix Guards_, the language is Dumas-ornate, but I find that Brust does a great job of turning the narrator, Paarfi, into a distant, stuffy, fulsome, hilarious character with it. The language in the series starting with _Jhereg_ is normal. If all you've tried of Brust is the Dumas stuff, try Jhereg if you get a chance. If you have tried it - well, nothing I can say to that. :) > That said, I did enjoy "Freedom & Necessity" which he wrote with Emma > Bull. It took me a couple times through to comprehend the whole I was never able to get into it. I think the last time I tried I was about 50 pages in when I put it down to go do something and never got back to it. --Stephanie --------________--------________-------- From mitchmiller at entertainmenttax.com Tue Mar 1 22:43:02 2005 From: mitchmiller at entertainmenttax.com (Mitch Miller) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:43:02 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: The Foundation of S.F. Success [Was: song title/source query] Message-ID: <713D77903926144E9AC1DDC3997FD676165694@bri-data.bri.local> Wonderful! Reminds me of my favorite sf poem, Isaac Asimov's The Foundation of S.F. Success . . . So success is not a mystery, just brush up on your history, and borrow day by day. Take the Empire that was Roman and you'll find it is at home in all the starry Milky Way. With a drive that's hyperspatial, through the parsecs you will race, you'll find that plotting is a breeze, With a tiny bit of cribbin' from the works of Edward Gibbon and that Greek, Thucydides. . . . Full text: http://moshkow.rsl.ru/koi/FOUNDATION/asivers.txt From: Karl Gallagher When I Was a Boy, Frank Hayes http://www.stevemacdonald.org/lyrics/wiwab.html "And we programmed in ones and in zeros And sometimes we ran out of ones." I love that line . . . -- Karl Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From christine at forber.net Tue Mar 1 22:54:26 2005 From: christine at forber.net (Christine Forber) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:54:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! In-Reply-To: <00aa01c51ea8$91438ef0$6c01a8c0@D6FL1B21> References: <200503012123.VAA10285@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: At 02:49 PM 3/1/2005 -0700, robert wrote: > >Only one problem... what do I do with this ARC I have coming to me as a >result of excessive Ebay bidding? Some suggestions based on listee actions in past: 1. Offer to send it to someone who won't be able to afford a copy of the book when it comes out. I think that Robert Parks and possibly James Bryant have done this in the past. Honour system. They ask for names sent off-list. Randomly choose one. 2. Didn't Lois offer a copy of PoS for sale on eBay with the proceeds going to her favourite charity? Something like that? I'm sure others will come up with suggestions!! :) (I already have a copy, so have nothing to gain here!) Christine --------________--------________-------- From t.vinson at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 1 22:59:36 2005 From: t.vinson at sbcglobal.net (Tom Vinson) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:59:36 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: song title/source query Message-ID: Thanks, Karl, for the link. > When I Was a Boy, Frank Hayes > http://www.stevemacdonald.org/lyrics/wiwab.html > > "And we programmed in ones and in zeros > And sometimes we ran out of ones." > > I love that line . . . Of course back when I started out we didn't have any zeros yet. Had to chisel all the machine code in in Roman numerals. Speaking of jheregs (I am now, anyway), we saw several flocks of 20 or more turkey vultures circling around over the highway on the drive home. It's sobering to realise just how close we are to that end of the food chain. Tom --------________--------________-------- From becca_price at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 23:29:27 2005 From: becca_price at yahoo.com (Becca Price) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:29:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Book club questions (moving OT:) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050301232927.95944.qmail@web41008.mail.yahoo.com> --- PAT MATHEWS wrote: > Yeah. RAH was getting pessimistic along about then. The > progress he expected > was so Not Happening. FRIDAY has a huge dose of said > pessimism, but then, > FRIDAY shows a culture on the verge of a hugely convulsive > crisis, which > Heinlein knew all about, being a WWII veteran. one other thing to remember is that somewhere in there, RAH started having problems that finally required a tripple by-pass. Rumor hath it that after his operation, he tore up a manuscript he'd started before it because it was so bad. and in many ways his last 3 or so books was Robert saying good=bye to his friends, both real and fictional. It's a fairly common thing that people who are dying need to wrap everything up, try to make sense of their lives... what he was doing was trying to unify all his universes and characters... sort of like Lois trying to meld the Vorkosiverse and the world of Challion into one unified universe... -becca __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --------________--------________-------- From nimitzcat at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 23:49:22 2005 From: nimitzcat at yahoo.com (M Collins) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:49:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! In-Reply-To: <209a74ed0503010930a2dc48d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050301234922.76423.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> I confess to some intense jealousy. I just got my rejection note :( -Marianne Laura Gallagher wrote: "You have been selected to review The Hallowed Hunt by Lois McMaster Bujold. The Advanced Readers Edition is shipping today." I "Which do you think they'd rather believe, that we're great, or that they're a bunch of screw-ups?" - Lois McMaster Bujold, The Warriors Apprentice --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. --------________--------________-------- From mtraber251 at earthlink.net Wed Mar 2 00:01:26 2005 From: mtraber251 at earthlink.net (M. Traber) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:01:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Fictionwise special! In-Reply-To: <200503012047.UAA10050@talia3.herald.co.uk> References: <200503012047.UAA10050@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <42250256.1080100@earthlink.net> Michael R N Dolbear wrote: > Yep, but you can buy _Cordelia's Honor_ (both books as an Omnibus) as an > individual ebook from Baen > http://www.webscription.net/ for $5.00 > > http://www.webscription.net/baen/order_singles.asp?filter=Lois+McMaster+Bujo > ld > > Young Miles, Miles, Mystery and Mayhem, Miles Errant are also $5.00 ea as > is Diplomatic Immunity. > > Or buy the July 2003 Webscription for $US15.00 and get _Cordelia's Honor_ > AND _Young Miles_ (tWA + tVG + MoM) and four other fine books. But you would have to make someone read it to you....the fictionwise books are audiobooks=) -- -- For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling --------________--------________-------- From mtraber251 at earthlink.net Wed Mar 2 00:02:29 2005 From: mtraber251 at earthlink.net (M. Traber) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:02:29 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! In-Reply-To: <20050301.165439.3256.2.ginni.berger@juno.com> References: <20050301.165439.3256.2.ginni.berger@juno.com> Message-ID: <42250295.2050108@earthlink.net> ginnilee p berger wrote: > Margali, dearest, so did I. > > By the way, do you still have my enya and Simon & Garfunkel cds? > > Ginnilee > Lady Lavender of Teal of course=) -- -- For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling --------________--------________-------- From becca_price at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 23:55:27 2005 From: becca_price at yahoo.com (Becca Price) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:55:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] OT: song title/source query In-Reply-To: <20050301202646.17825.qmail@web81009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050301235527.35716.qmail@web41005.mail.yahoo.com> --- Thomas Vinson wrote: > This is tangentially related to ConDFW, since Brust > sang the song at his concert. I also heard it at > (I believe) FenCon last year, but can't remember the > title or author. > > The refrain starts out: > We walked 20 miles to the schoolhouse > barefoot, and uphill both ways > through blizzards in winter and summer, > back in the good old days... > When Fortran was not even Three- (two-, one-) tran... > > Anyone familiar with this? It's called "When I was a boy" and I think it's by Frank Hayes. lyrics are at http://www.stevemacdonald.org/lyrics/wiwab.html, if not at other places too. -becca __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 --------________--------________-------- From martin at bonham.net.nz Wed Mar 2 00:06:04 2005 From: martin at bonham.net.nz (Martin Bonham) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 13:06:04 +1300 Subject: [LMB] Fictionwise special! In-Reply-To: <200503011854.SAA08915@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <4225BA3C.18818.517D80DC@localhost> Digest 4774 contained a post in which Scott Raun observed > BUY "Shards of Honor" [Vorkosigan Series #1] > and get "Barrayar" [Vorkosigan Series #2] > Free! >That's at www.fictionwise.com. Shards is listed at $7.49. I don't mean to sound dismissive, but that is still 50% MORE than the normal price of that combo from one of their competing eBook companies. That is Baen has sold that same combo of two books (since July 2003), as the Omnibus _Cordelia's Honor_ as an 'individual eBook', for the normal price of US$5. http://www.baen.com/author_catalog.asp?author=lmbujold Baen offer slightly fewer of Lois's eBooks than Fictionwise do, but from Baen they do seem to be cheaper. $5 each for _DI_ and the four Omnibuses, and $4 for each of three individual titles. http://www.webscription.net note: ensure cookies are enabled (And of course _tMoM_ is also in their Free Library) The Omnibuses are: Cordelia's Honor ( Shards of Honor & Barrayar ) Young Miles ( The Warrior's Apprentice, tMoM, The Vor Game ) Miles, Mystery and Mayhem (Cetaganda, Ethan of Athos, Labyrinth ) Miles Errant ( tBoI, Brothers in Arms, Mirror Dance ) Martin. -- Martin Bonham, Auckland, (Aotearoa) New Zealand. Home of Middle Earth, Whale Rider, and now also Narnia. --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Wed Mar 2 00:16:28 2005 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 00:16:28 -0000 Subject: [LMB] Fictionwise special! Message-ID: <200503020018.AAA11555@talia3.herald.co.uk> > From: M. Traber > Date: 02 March 2005 00:01 > > LE wrote: > > Yep, but you can buy _Cordelia's Honor_ (both books as an Omnibus) as an > > individual ebook from Baen > > http://www.webscription.net/ for $5.00 [...] > But you would have to make someone read it to you....the > fictionwise books are audiobooks=) Um, no. fictionwise do have audiobooks (MP3 downloads) but not from Her Ladyship yet. All the ebooks discussed are text only. Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From AndrewBarton at compuserve.com Wed Mar 2 00:34:53 2005 From: AndrewBarton at compuserve.com (Andrew Barton) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:34:53 -0500 Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT:, was ConDFW Message-ID: <200503011934_MC3-1-9766-B09E@compuserve.com> Ray: > Are you saying that the Vlad Taltos books are dark? I found them to be > quite entertaining, actually. So what if Vlad is a paid assassin with a > wise-cracking flying lizard on his shoulder? > I like the way that the Vlad character develops. He ends up being a > very caring person, and I have never really seen him as a villain. > After all, he only kilt them what needed killin'. ;-) In 'Jhereg' and for a book or two thereafter Vlad is essentially a D&D-type assassin involved in complicated plots and morality doesn't enter into the story. Part of his (and Brusts's) maturation in later books comes as he slowly starts to see the reality of his life as an organised crime boss and its effects on the ordinary people of the area where he lives. Andrew --------________--------________-------- From AndrewBarton at compuserve.com Wed Mar 2 00:34:55 2005 From: AndrewBarton at compuserve.com (Andrew Barton) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:34:55 -0500 Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust, was ConDFW Message-ID: <200503011934_MC3-1-9766-B0A0@compuserve.com> Patrick McKinnion: > (I've also read two of the latest ones, "Path of the Dead", and "The > Lord of Castle Black", which take place a little over 200 years after > "Five Hundred Years After".) The third, 'Sethra Levode', has just came out in paperback. I spent much of today devouring it. Andrew --------________--------________-------- From AndrewBarton at compuserve.com Wed Mar 2 00:34:54 2005 From: AndrewBarton at compuserve.com (Andrew Barton) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:34:54 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: (OT) Take Back Your Government Message-ID: <200503011934_MC3-1-9766-B09F@compuserve.com> IIRC I saw a new copy on the shelves in one of the bookstores we visited in Atlanta GA. Andrew --------________--------________-------- From bkemper at bigdogz.com Wed Mar 2 00:37:59 2005 From: bkemper at bigdogz.com (Bart Kemper) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:37:59 -0600 Subject: [LMB] ConDFW In-Reply-To: <200503011854.SAA08911@talia3.herald.co.uk> References: <200503011854.SAA08911@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <42250AE7.4070906@bigdogz.com> > > >Louann Miller wrote: > > >>>>> Any chance of the hotel temporarily designating the ground floor >>>>> non-smoking during the next con? There has been a LOT of complaint >>>>> about the smoke situation. >>> >>> > >Stephanie Folse wrote: > > >>> Nope, hotel's not willing to do that. Their suggestion was for us to >>> ask the smokers with the con to step outside, but they weren't willing >>> to ask non-convention hotel guests to do the same, and as long as even >>> one person is smoking inside, the con smokers will stay inside. >> >> > >Ewww. In retrospect, I'm very glad I didn't go to ConDFW. Add one >more thing to the list of reasons to avoid Texas (or any other >state that permits indoor smoking). > >Robert >not actually allergic, just hates the smell during and after >being in a smoky area. Never mind the health issues. > It wasn't that bad. The ceiling was high, and it was only in the lobby. I didn't see anyone smoking in the restaraunt area, just the bar/lounge area (which was also the lobby). I don't think I got any "smoke funk" on me the entire con. You'd have to be sitting near a smoker (or seven) to do so. --------________--------________-------- From mtraber251 at earthlink.net Wed Mar 2 00:48:57 2005 From: mtraber251 at earthlink.net (M. Traber) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:48:57 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Fictionwise special! In-Reply-To: <200503020018.AAA11555@talia3.herald.co.uk> References: <200503020018.AAA11555@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <42250D79.8050405@earthlink.net> Michael R N Dolbear wrote: > Um, no. fictionwise do have audiobooks (MP3 downloads) but > not from Her Ladyship yet. All the ebooks discussed are text > only. > > Little Egret > [BUY THIS EBOOK AND GET Barrayar [A Vorkosigan Novel] by Lois > McMaster Bujold FREE!] First novel in the popular series that > begins with the inauspicious meeting of Betan > astrocartographer Cordelia Naismith and Barrayaran Captain > Aral Vorkosigan during a treacherous war. As captor and > prisoner on an abandoned outpost planet, the honorable captain > and the resolute scientist must rely on each others' trust to > survive a trek across dangerous terrain, thus sparking a > relationship that shares the struggles of culture and politics > between their worlds. (Published: 1986) Locus Poll Award > Nominee > > Words: 78689 - Reading Time: 224-314 min. Category: Science > Fiction Then what is reading time? That is how my audio books let me know how long they play for. -- -- For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Wed Mar 2 01:10:59 2005 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:10:59 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Fictionwise special! References: <200503020018.AAA11555@talia3.herald.co.uk> <42250D79.8050405@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <004701c51ec4$b2160ce0$3301a8c0@mbaxis> On Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:48 PM, M. Traber wrote: > Michael R N Dolbear wrote: > > > All the ebooks discussed are text only. > > > > Words: 78689 - Reading Time: 224-314 min. Category: > > Science Fiction > > Then what is reading time? That is how my audio books let > me know how long they play for. How long they estimate the average reader will take to read the book -- that is, what kind of time investment you are likely to have to make to read the book if you purchase it. -- Michael --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Wed Mar 2 01:27:26 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:27:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Liaden books (was: ConDFW con report) References: <209a74ed05022812101f94436c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <105b01c51ec6$fe8fc500$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alice Bentley" > > On the Liaden website, the recommended sequence is > > Agent of Change : 0441009913 (reprinted Oct 02) > Conflict of Honors : 0441009646 (reprinted Aug 02) > Carpe Diem : 0441010229 (reprinted Jan 03) > Plan B : 0441010539 (reprinted May 03) > Local Custom : 0441009115 (reprinted Feb 02) > Scout's Progress > I Dare > > That's not the way I would do it, though. I would start with Local > Custom, then Scout's Progress (which are published together as > PILOT'S CHOICE in Tpb), then go into the three that were first > published in 1988: Conflict of Honors, Agent of Change then Carpe > Diem (published together IN Tpb as PARTNERS IN NECESSITY) then > finishing off with Plan B and I Dare. > > I really enjoyed these books. Fast paced space opera with a scoop of romance. > > Alice > Your Erstwhile Bookseller What about Balance of Trade, which is set something like 200 years before those above, and Crystal Soldier, is it, that just came out in a print edition? [it's been out from embiid.com as a e-book since the end of last year] There are also some chapbooks, from SRM Publishers, the authors. Those might be the best introductions to the series--someone who likes the the stories in a chapbook would probably like the books, if the person feels "eh" about them the books probably won't interest the person. But usually, there is a strong correlation between liking LMB books, and Lee & Miller's, and vice versa. Years ago I gave a friend a present of LMB and Le & Miller books and hooked her on both at the same time! --------________--------________-------- From ginni.berger at juno.com Wed Mar 2 01:23:34 2005 From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:23:34 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! Message-ID: <20050301.203120.1848.0.ginni.berger@juno.com> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:54:26 -0500 Christine Forber writes: > At 02:49 PM 3/1/2005 -0700, robert wrote: > > > >Only one problem... what do I do with this ARC I have coming to me > as a > >result of excessive Ebay bidding? > > Some suggestions based on listee actions in past: > > 1. Offer to send it to someone who won't be able to afford a > copy of the book when it comes out. I think that Robert > Parks and possibly James Bryant have done this in the past. > Honour system. They ask for names sent off-list. Randomly > choose one. > Until I have a job, I'm one of those. Mom's doing better, so I may be able to start looking for a job again soonly, I hope. Ginnilee Lady Lavender of Teal --------________--------________-------- From alice at sfbooks.com Wed Mar 2 02:15:48 2005 From: alice at sfbooks.com (Alice Bentley) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:15:48 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: Liaden books (was: ConDFW con report) In-Reply-To: <105b01c51ec6$fe8fc500$0100a8c0@heaviside> References: <209a74ed05022812101f94436c@mail.gmail.com> <105b01c51ec6$fe8fc500$0100a8c0@heaviside> Message-ID: Paula pointed out: > What about Balance of Trade, which is set something like 200 years before >those above, and Crystal Soldier, is it, that just came out in a print >edition? Ah, but Laura had said she was "willing to wait for" mass market paperbacks, so I was really just posting the information that they were already available. Balance of Trade and Crystal Soldier aren't in mass market yet (I think). The other reason I didn't mention them is that I found the earlier published books to be more engaging. While I enjoyed Balance of Trade (haven't picked up Crystal Soldier yet) I don't think it was as strong a story. The chapbooks are indeed a fun thing, I've enjoyed reading them and I *really* enjoyed making them available to fans of the series that hadn't realized they existed. But they are ~$10.00 each, with just two short stories or so each. I usually wait until the potential reader has been well drawn in before trotting them out. Alice (no longer a bookseller, but still a bookpusher) --------________--------________-------- From RayLists at quixnet.net Wed Mar 2 02:42:27 2005 From: RayLists at quixnet.net (Ray) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 21:42:27 -0500 Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT:, was ConDFW In-Reply-To: References: <200503010323.DAA30438@talia3.herald.co.uk> <209a74ed050301092748054780@mail.gmail.com> <20050301120619.T64849@idoru.cepheid.org> Message-ID: <42252813.2070402@quixnet.net> I actually didn't find the end of Issola to be particularly tragic. It was really more of a transformation than anything else. (I'll stop here to keep from stepping over the line into a blatant spoiler) Ray d schluter wrote: >I found Aythra dpressing on the whole, and Orca not alot of fun, but >even with the tragity involved in Issola, the book on the whole wasn't >depressing. I have most of his books, and really wanted to make it to >that con, but sigh, lack o vehical and funds simultaniously rather >prevent con going... > >On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:18:37 -0600 (CST), Stephanie Folse > wrote: > > >>On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Laura Gallagher wrote: >> >>Dark, noir, and anti-hero? That's a description completely alien to the >>books *I* read. Well, anti-hero fits to an extent - the main character is >>an assassin after all - but I'd call them more adventure than anything >>else, and teh character changes and matures. Brust tends to tell each >>story in a different style, which I find enjoyable, but I wouldn't call >>the books depressing. Depressing events happen on occasion, as in all >>books, but there's only so much darkenss a wisecracking assassin and his >>wisecracking sidekick can carry. Books in the series go up and down the >>happy/sad scale as Vlad gains in maturity, but they have never depressed >>*me*, and the slowly-unfolding larger scale of teh world and the plottings >>of the gods are fascinating to me. >> >> > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.5 - Release Date: 3/1/05 --------________--------________-------- From RayLists at quixnet.net Wed Mar 2 02:47:31 2005 From: RayLists at quixnet.net (Ray) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 21:47:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT: In-Reply-To: <20050301215307.17411.qmail@web53710.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050301215307.17411.qmail@web53710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42252943.1060208@quixnet.net> J Selin wrote: >I find it curious that I could never get into Brust. TPG was >recommended to me by the same guy who recommended Bujold *and* Kay; >usually he's a good recommender. But not this time. I've tried 3-4 >Brusts and was put off by them all. The distant, stuffy, fulsome >language did it for me. > > If it's what you describe as stuffy language that's the problem, just stay away from _The Phoenix Guards_ and _Five Hundred Years After_. Those carry the style on purpose. I really don't know how Brust managed to maintain that style for an entire book, let alone two. The others in the Vlad Taltos series have a completely different style. There is nothing stuffy or distant about them at all. Ray -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.5 - Release Date: 3/1/05 --------________--------________-------- From mikebomb at myrealbox.com Wed Mar 2 03:11:56 2005 From: mikebomb at myrealbox.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 22:11:56 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Liaden books (was: ConDFW con report) References: <209a74ed05022812101f94436c@mail.gmail.com> <105b01c51ec6$fe8fc500$0100a8c0@heaviside> Message-ID: <004a01c51ed5$97516b50$3301a8c0@mbaxis> On Tuesday, March 01, 2005 9:15 PM, Alice Bentley wrote: > The chapbooks are indeed a fun thing, I've enjoyed > reading them and I *really* enjoyed making them available > to fans of the series that hadn't realized they existed. > But they are ~$10.00 each, with just two short stories or > so each. I usually wait until the potential reader has > been well drawn in before trotting them out. I could not justify to myself buying the chapbooks for $10.00 apiece, but I was able to justify buying them in electronic format (encrypted, unfortunately) for $2.99 apiece. See http://www.embiid.com/authors/authors.asp?379577852&P=3&C=0 -- Michael --------________--------________-------- From kerry at forty-two.co.nz Wed Mar 2 03:23:35 2005 From: kerry at forty-two.co.nz (Kerry Dustin) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:23:35 +1300 Subject: [LMB] OT: Liaden books (was: ConDFW con report) In-Reply-To: <105b01c51ec6$fe8fc500$0100a8c0@heaviside> Message-ID: <200503020323.j223NX5B003526@dbmail-mx4.orcon.co.nz> > -----Original Message----- > From: lois-bujold-admin at lists.herald.co.uk > [mailto:lois-bujold-admin at lists.herald.co.uk] On Behalf Of > Paula Lieberman > Sent: Wednesday, 2 March 2005 2:27 p.m. > But usually, there is a strong correlation between liking LMB > books, and Lee > & Miller's, and vice versa. Years ago I gave a friend a > present of LMB and > Le & Miller books and hooked her on both at the same time! Well, the same person who hooked me on (oops, I mean introduced me to) LMB is also the evil person who got me reading Lee & Miller. So I'm a statistical point that agrees with that comment. Kerry (back after a very long absence) -- http://www.forty-two.co.nz/corner --------________--------________-------- From WaWenri at aol.com Wed Mar 2 03:31:11 2005 From: WaWenri at aol.com (WaWenri at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:31:11 EST Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! Message-ID: <8c.21d7d11f.2f568d7f@aol.com> Laura Gallagher writes: <> I will not covet. I will not covet. I will not covet. I will not covet. I will not covet. Oh well, congratulations! Bill Wenrich "... a hard heart is no defense against a soft head." - C.S.Lewis, "The Abolition of Man" --------________--------________-------- From cessnadriver at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 05:23:54 2005 From: cessnadriver at gmail.com (James) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:23:54 -0800 Subject: [LMB] GMail invites In-Reply-To: <3fd6b3e605030111392b1b56dc@mail.gmail.com> References: <62.4fb0f731.2f54a942@aol.com> <3fd6b3e605030111392b1b56dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3b8ab98e05030121231fcdabfa@mail.gmail.com> Heh. I must be one of the few late comers - I've had gmail forever, and I can't find anyone to give it to! (Apparently, I now have 50 invites...) --------________--------________-------- From cessnadriver at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 05:26:15 2005 From: cessnadriver at gmail.com (James) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:26:15 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! In-Reply-To: <8c.21d7d11f.2f568d7f@aol.com> References: <8c.21d7d11f.2f568d7f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3b8ab98e05030121266bcf5e2@mail.gmail.com> Hrm. Who else signed up and got it as well? (I got turned down...) --------________--------________-------- From louann at millerdome.com Wed Mar 2 13:59:54 2005 From: louann at millerdome.com (Louann Miller) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 07:59:54 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! In-Reply-To: References: <209a74ed0503010930a2dc48d@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.1.2.1.20050301121150.02e109c0@pop.mindspring.com> <209a74ed0503010930a2dc48d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050302075902.01f24ff8@mail07.powweb.com> At 02:13 PM 3/1/2005 -0500, Batwrangler wrote: >[Laura got review copy, Karl didn't.] > >I got turned down, too, but I'm glad someone on the list got chosen. > >Congrats! I went ahead and signed up even though the contest for THH ARC had closed because hey, I can always use new books in a variety of subjects. Don't mind giving the world the benefit of my opinion either. Louann, grinning. --------________--------________-------- From louann at millerdome.com Wed Mar 2 14:03:03 2005 From: louann at millerdome.com (Louann Miller) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 08:03:03 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: song title/source query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050302080217.01f2e098@mail07.powweb.com> At 04:59 PM 3/1/2005 -0600, Tom Vinson wrote: >Speaking of jheregs (I am now, anyway), we saw several >flocks of 20 or more turkey vultures circling around >over the highway on the drive home. > >It's sobering to realise just how close we are to that >end of the food chain. Drat you, now I've got "The Circle of Liiiiiiife" stuck in my head. Louann, trying to drive it out with the "king goes a-progress through the guts of a beggar" bit from that play by that one guy. --------________--------________-------- From t.vinson at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 2 14:06:15 2005 From: t.vinson at sbcglobal.net (Thomas Vinson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:06:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] OT: THAT song Message-ID: <20050302140615.99997.qmail@web81007.mail.yahoo.com> "Banned from Arkham" For any Lovecraft fans who haven't heard the song. http://www.khaosworks.org/filk/arkham.html Tom --------________--------________-------- From tora.smulders at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 14:08:49 2005 From: tora.smulders at gmail.com (Tora K. Smulders-Srinivasan) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:08:49 +0000 Subject: [LMB] GMail invites OT: In-Reply-To: <3b8ab98e05030121231fcdabfa@mail.gmail.com> References: <62.4fb0f731.2f54a942@aol.com> <3fd6b3e605030111392b1b56dc@mail.gmail.com> <3b8ab98e05030121231fcdabfa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4afcc1280503020608641ce54a@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:23:54 -0800, James wrote: > Heh. I must be one of the few late comers - I've had gmail forever, > and I can't find anyone to give it to! (Apparently, I now have 50 > invites...) I've got 50 invites too!! I used to have 5 or 6 or so. And only ever used one. Apparently everyone who wants one, has one. Or I just don't know people that don't have one and want one! I've offered on this list and on my live journal, but perhaps those are all people that would already have one. I haven't emailed my general friends to offer them. Maybe I should. But then, I don't feel like I have to do gmail's advertising for them!!! -Tora --------________--------________-------- From koolbeans at dfn.com Wed Mar 2 15:33:33 2005 From: koolbeans at dfn.com (Kay Carrasco) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:33:33 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Happy Birthday to... Patrick McKinnion! Message-ID: <004d01c51f3d$31f17120$1754cece@puter> Well, well, well. TBT-Helper Ikkabod, Her Eminence the High Poohbah of the Quad Squad (she insisted I write that), escaped out the front door this morning when I was coming in from retrieving my newspaper, necessitating a yard-wide chase--no easy matter, in an unfenced yard of nearly an acre. :: Aww, Momm. I was jus' being 'xhuberant. Aren't I *cute* when I do that?!? :: (( Yeah. Cute. Sure, that's it. Especially when I smelled skunk, and started having visions of Close Encounters of the Eye-watering Stench Kind. )) :: You mean I can't invite the nice fluffy black and white kittie inside to play? I was just tryin' to be neighborly an' sociable.... :: (( NO. )) :: Oh. Okay. Well, the kittie waddled off and hided anyway. Guess it wasn't very friendly after all. So. Whose birf'day is it today, Momm? :: (( It's Patrick -- )) :: Patrick?!? PATRICK!!?!! Kitties! Assemble! C'mon! It's Unca Patrick's-- :: (( No, hey, no, wait! Not *that* Patr-- )) Purff tears in to the computer room, panting from the exertion and nearly running over Ikkabod in the process. She tries to say something, but gets drowned out as with a *POP* *POP* . . . . /p/o/p/-splash. . . the rest of the Portales contingent of the Quad Squad arrives by tele-transport. All are bouncing, pouncing, leaping and meeping in excitement. Except for Togo, who lands in my coffee cup and seems rather nonplussed with the accomodations. (( Togo! You all right, hon? )) + *blurp* + (( I'll take that as a "yes." Don't worry, lovie, this doesn't take long and then you can go home, okay? )) + blurrrrrp + (( Got it. I'll hurry. Now, kitties-- )) :: Patrick's birf'day! It's Unca-- :: :: Happy Birf'day to Patr-- :: :: Buh-buh-but, I thought *our* Patrick's birf'day wasn't 'til April, an'-- :: :: It's NOT, you idiots! Will you CALM DOWN a minute and *listen* to me? :: Poe swats Ikkabod, hisses at Pi, and jumps up on the desk to peer into the coffee cup. :: Momm, what's Togo doing in there? I don't think caffeine is-- :: + + + *b*l*u*r*p*!!!!!!!! + + + (( Uhhhh. He seems to be, er, adjusting. You were saying, Poe....? )) :: Yes. Squad, you bunch of doofusses. It's not *Unca* Patrick's birf'day. Purff is right. Auntie Guido's Patrick isn't 21 until April. Today's Patrick is Patrick *McKinnion*. And he's 39. Sheesh. :: :: Oh. :: :: Oops. :: :: I tried to tell 'em, Momm. But nobody ever listens to me.... :: (( Yeah, well, I tried, too, sweetie. It's probably just the excitement of being back on TBT duty again. You know how they are.... )) + + + !*B!*L!*U!*R!*P*!!!!!!!!!! + + + Dear Patrick *McKinnion*..... Happy, happy 39th birf'day. Sorry to have to kinda rush things here, but it's getting rather late, I've got to get ready for work, and Togo is starting to swim backwards on his tail. Either he's channelling Flipper or coffee really *isn't* the ideal environment for Betas. Have a great day!!!!!!!!!!! Best regards, ~ Kay, the Quad Squad, and Togo the Fishie ===== ~~O8:> --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] --------________--------________-------- From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Wed Mar 2 16:16:43 2005 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:16:43 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: song title/source query Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.1.20050302111201.02e152a0@pop.mindspring.com> Tom Vinson asks about a filk classic. >The refrain starts out: >We walked 20 miles to the schoolhouse >barefoot, and uphill both ways >through blizzards in winter and summer, >back in the good old days... Tom, this is "When I Was a Boy" by Frank Hayes. To hear it done properly, I strongly recommend you come to GaFilk, where LMB fan Bill Sutton [who wrote the song "Vor", to which there is a link in the filk archives at http://www.dendarii.com/ ] beats it with an enormous schtick. Of course, I'd strongly recommend you coming to GaFilk anyway, just to hang out with lots of listies, let alone lots of filkers. [subtle hint, of the sledgehammer variety ;)] Jerrie, helpful like that --------________--------________-------- From robert at warnickelittler.com Wed Mar 2 16:37:08 2005 From: robert at warnickelittler.com (robert) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:37:08 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! In-Reply-To: <200503020113.BAA11931@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <000101c51f46$16bfd690$6c01a8c0@D6FL1B21> > >Only one problem... what do I do with this ARC I have coming to me as a > >result of excessive Ebay bidding? > > Ummm ... donate it to certain needy list members? (hint hint) > > Or confirm Pavlov's results? > drool drool drool, > Paula Gillis > > Some suggestions based on listee actions in past: > > 1. Offer to send it to someone who won't be able to afford a > copy of the book when it comes out. I think that Robert > Parks and possibly James Bryant have done this in the past. > Honour system. They ask for names sent off-list. Randomly > choose one. > > 2. Didn't Lois offer a copy of PoS for sale on eBay with the > proceeds going to her favourite charity? Something like > that? > > I'm sure others will come up with suggestions!! :) (I > already have a copy, so have nothing to gain here!) > > Christine Thanks for all the advice and congrats. I have decided to give it to Lorraine, after all they have been through the past year and a half she needs a bit of good news. My good fortune will be her good fortune. Maybe she will give me some tips on the review I have to write now... -------- Robert W --------________--------________-------- From surielle at satx.rr.com Wed Mar 2 16:51:07 2005 From: surielle at satx.rr.com (Kirsten Lenius) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:51:07 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! References: <20050301234922.76423.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <037101c51f48$08063ca0$ddec1a18@4prtw01> I was rejected too.. so we've all got good company :) Kirsten Kirsten J. Lenius ********************** Joy is my middle name! ********************** http://home.satx.rr.com/surielle/ ********************** This person is a natural product. The slight variations in color and texture enhance her individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects. ********************** Practice Random Acts of Kindness and Do Senseless Acts of Beauty!! --------________--------________-------- From rmpruehs at cac.net Wed Mar 2 17:00:25 2005 From: rmpruehs at cac.net (rmpruehs at cac.net) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:00:25 -0800 Subject: [LMB] GMail invites OT: Message-ID: <8a4a290d0d064dc2a42d53c0e0daa91a.rmpruehs@cac.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tora K. Smulders-Srinivasan [mailto:tora.smulders at gmail.com] Sent: 3/2/2005 6:08:49 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: [LMB] GMail invites OT: > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:23:54 -0800, James wrote: > > Heh. I must be one of the few late comers - I've had gmail forever, > > and I can't find anyone to give it to! (Apparently, I now have 50 > > invites...) > > I've got 50 invites too!! I used to have 5 or 6 or so. And only ever used one. > > Apparently everyone who wants one, has one. Or I just don't know > people that don't have one and want one! I've offered on this list > and on my live journal, but perhaps those are all people that would > already have one. > > I haven't emailed my general friends to offer them. Maybe I should. > But then, I don't feel like I have to do gmail's advertising for > them!!! (delurking) According to a recent issue of Tourbus, this site collects and redistributes gmail invitations: http://isnoop.net/gmail/ The site says: "Welcome to isnoop.net's gmail invite spooler. This page offers a place for people with Gmail invites and those who want them to come together with minimal effort and fuss. "Currently, we have 391,911 invites available to share. Thanks to the generosity of folks like you, we've distributed 440,984 invites since this page went up on Sep 13, 2004." ...and then goes on to list its privacy policy, FAQ and so on and so forth. Hope that helps... (lurking) Ree, who has gmail but no invitations -- mebbe I don't use it enough? --------________--------________-------- From acswagner at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 2 17:16:12 2005 From: acswagner at bellsouth.net (acswagner at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:16:12 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! In-Reply-To: <037101c51f48$08063ca0$ddec1a18@4prtw01> Message-ID: <4225A07C.4523.7D8817@localhost> Hiya! Yeah, me too... rejected that is... sniffle. Hope this is okay to send... don't know what else to say to fix the quote/reply ratio. Sasha On 2 Mar 2005 at 10:51, Kirsten Lenius wrote: > I was rejected too.. so we've all got good company :) --------________--------________-------- From jessybrody at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 17:42:24 2005 From: jessybrody at gmail.com (Jessy Brody) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 17:42:24 +0000 Subject: [LMB] (OT) more gmail invites Message-ID: Yeah, I've got 50 invites, first come first serve. And it really is great; I only keep my yahoo account bc I'm in a couple yahoo groups. JLB -- Welcome to Triage -Kurt Vonnegut He was never noisy and lacked the dogmatism of the insecure -written of George Orwell --------________--------________-------- From margdean at erols.com Wed Mar 2 18:10:16 2005 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 13:10:16 -0500 Subject: [LMB] (OT:) more gmail invites References: Message-ID: <42260188.C0FB015@erols.com> Jessy Brody wrote: > > Yeah, I've got 50 invites, first come first serve. And it really is > great; I only keep my yahoo account bc I'm in a couple yahoo groups. I'm here to tell you that you don't have to have a Yahoo mail account to be in Yahoo groups. I've been in many of the latter without the former for years now. :) --Margaret Dean --------________--------________-------- From stacey at xtra.co.nz Wed Mar 2 18:55:01 2005 From: stacey at xtra.co.nz (BlueRose) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:55:01 +1300 Subject: [LMB] (OT:) more gmail invites References: <42260188.C0FB015@erols.com> Message-ID: <003801c51f59$750465a0$0201a8c0@stacey> From: "Margaret Dean" *snip*> I'm here to tell you that you don't have to have a Yahoo mail > account to be in Yahoo groups. I've been in many of the latter > without the former for years now. :) And I joined back in the days before there were Yahoo groups, so I didnt and still dont have a Yahoo email address. And its easy enuf to change the address you want the groups sent to, its in your personal setup options. Stacey --------________--------________-------- From patgund at earthlink.net Wed Mar 2 19:12:37 2005 From: patgund at earthlink.net (Patrick McKinnion) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:12:37 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Happy Birthday to... Patrick McKinnion! In-Reply-To: <004d01c51f3d$31f17120$1754cece@puter> References: <004d01c51f3d$31f17120$1754cece@puter> Message-ID: <4528c652d93b9e76f60caee0d7d23c51@earthlink.net> On Mar 2, 2005, at 7:33 AM, Kay Carrasco wrote: > Happy, happy 39th birf'day. Sorry to have to kinda rush things > here, but it's getting rather late, I've got to get ready for > work, and Togo is starting to swim backwards on his tail. Either > he's channelling Flipper or coffee really *isn't* the ideal > environment for Betas. Have a great day!!!!!!!!!!! > *Chuckle* Thank you. - Patrick McKinnion Watership Down You've read the book. You've seen the movie. NOW... Eat the stew! ---------------------------- (http://home.earthlink.net/~patgund) LJ - http://patgund.livejournal.com/ Patrick's Ever-Growing Tagline Collection: (http://home.earthlink.net/~patgund/tagline/) --------________--------________-------- From tlambs1138 at charter.net Thu Mar 3 01:36:00 2005 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 17:36:00 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Re: FirstLook--turned down on one, but got another References: <200503021201.MAA15228@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <006701c51f91$5b3beca0$9bebbe42@Samantha> I was turned down for _Hallowed Hunt_ (whine), but was selected to read _Sundial_ by Mary Gentle. Whee! Since I adored _Rats and Gargoyles_, have inhaled Dumas since learning how to read, and rather liked _Orcs_ (I will pass over _Ancient Light_, I'm over wanting to smack Lynn Christie upside the head now), I was glad to land this one. Jean Lamb, tlambs1138 at charter.net "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you are crunchy and good with lemon drops." --------________--------________-------- From celticdragonfly at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 01:44:33 2005 From: celticdragonfly at gmail.com (Laura Gallagher) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:44:33 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Re: FirstLook--turned down on one, but got another In-Reply-To: <006701c51f91$5b3beca0$9bebbe42@Samantha> References: <200503021201.MAA15228@talia3.herald.co.uk> <006701c51f91$5b3beca0$9bebbe42@Samantha> Message-ID: <209a74ed0503021744521a697d@mail.gmail.com> Jean Lamb wrote: > I was turned down for _Hallowed Hunt_ (whine), but was selected to read > _Sundial_ by Mary Gentle. Oh, marvelous. I was turned down for that one. Let us know what you think of it. Laura --------________--------________-------- From Pouncer at aol.com Thu Mar 3 02:26:17 2005 From: Pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 21:26:17 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Buzzards on Barrayar? Message-ID: <639D0FB8.70DCDE79.0019BD3C@aol.com> Tom Vinson wrote: > we saw several flocks of 20 or more turkey vultures >circling around over the highway on the drive home. Louann replies: >Drat you, now I've got >"The Circle of Liiiiiiife" stuck in my head. Tombs image, for me, brings up a bunch of Beatle-cut buzzards singing barbershop harmonies of "Webre Your Friends" ... Okayb& We know that Earth critters have problems with Barrayaran native life. Goatbs bane, Henbs bane, Whatever. We know cats drag in horned hoppers, though they may or may not eat what they drag in, same as now. We know there arenbt bmanyb bats on Barrayar because they canbt eat the bbugsb. So even though Cordeliabs bio-trained understanding of comparative Xeno-biology suggests to her that she and Aral SHOULD be able to eat Sergyarian native meats, the Barrayaran native forms arenbt well tolerated by Earthly-vores. (Butterbugs which can make use of Barrayaran material are still in development.) But, can Barrayaran predators eat Earthly crops, or, in keeping with Cordeliabs comments, are they at least likely to be able to benefit from Earth-meat? On the one hand, we donbt have textevd of predators. More the reverse b in comments to Listies (Diane E, I think) Lois says there are no large predators at all on land and only maybe one the size of a fox. That leaves us man eating sea-monsters. Sharks. Squid. Giant carnivorous clams or lobsters. Who knows? If the sea-monsters are aggressive enough that may explain why coastal cities arenbt more important thru the Time of Isolation. But on land, even if there are no large predators I canbt help wondering about buzzards, crows, And other carrion-feeders. It would seem to me that if meats are trans-xeno-digestable (or whatever the word should be) then there may be Barrayaran native forms that squick out the Firster and ToIbers by attacking Barrayaran dead. And THAT suggests to me an origin or at Least re-inforcement of the funeral pyre Traditions. So. Barrayaran Buzzards? Or not? --------________--------________-------- From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Thu Mar 3 03:47:54 2005 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 22:47:54 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: romance novel covers that didn't make it Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.1.20050224004111.02df9080@pop.mindspring.com> http://www.worldoflongmire.com/features/romance_novels/ Enjoy! Jerrie, evil like that --------________--------________-------- From andrews at pcug.org.au Thu Mar 3 04:22:16 2005 From: andrews at pcug.org.au (Avery Andrews) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:22:16 +1100 (EST) Subject: [LMB] LMB Tech in the News: nerve disruptor, almost In-Reply-To: <200503020113.BAA11935@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7077 Not suppose to cause permanent damage, but seems like it might sort of even look like a nerve-disruptor in action. - Avery --------________--------________-------- From cessnadriver at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 05:17:17 2005 From: cessnadriver at gmail.com (James) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:17:17 -0800 Subject: [LMB] GMail invites OT: In-Reply-To: <8a4a290d0d064dc2a42d53c0e0daa91a.rmpruehs@cac.net> References: <8a4a290d0d064dc2a42d53c0e0daa91a.rmpruehs@cac.net> Message-ID: <3b8ab98e050302211775afa437@mail.gmail.com> I used to use gmailswap, but as gmail got popular, the swaps started getting lamer and lamer. I did have interest in one of my proposed swaps, but they never got back to me. --------________--------________-------- From cessnadriver at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 05:19:24 2005 From: cessnadriver at gmail.com (James) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:19:24 -0800 Subject: [LMB] (OT:) more gmail invites In-Reply-To: <003801c51f59$750465a0$0201a8c0@stacey> References: <42260188.C0FB015@erols.com> <003801c51f59$750465a0$0201a8c0@stacey> Message-ID: <3b8ab98e05030221193c447825@mail.gmail.com> Unfortunately, you do if you want to stay on Yahoo messenger... at least my Trillian keeps having problems connecting until I reinitialize my Yahoo Mail account. Even though I log into my Yahoo account quite often to read the Yahoo groups (online - I don't have it mailed to me). --------________--------________-------- From cessnadriver at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 05:22:17 2005 From: cessnadriver at gmail.com (James) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:22:17 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Hallowed Hunt Reviewing! In-Reply-To: <4225A07C.4523.7D8817@localhost> References: <037101c51f48$08063ca0$ddec1a18@4prtw01> <4225A07C.4523.7D8817@localhost> Message-ID: <3b8ab98e05030221221827e974@mail.gmail.com> I suppose now that we know that one out of very many listees "won", I guess the next one is how many of us who applied poured our hearts out on the "Why you want to review this book" essay they wanted! (I did... but not so much that I'm hurt that I don't want to try again...) --------________--------________-------- From billie_t at fastmail.fm Thu Mar 3 06:02:25 2005 From: billie_t at fastmail.fm (Tracy MacShane) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 17:02:25 +1100 Subject: [LMB] Re: FirstLook--turned down on one, but got another In-Reply-To: <006701c51f91$5b3beca0$9bebbe42@Samantha> References: <200503021201.MAA15228@talia3.herald.co.uk> <006701c51f91$5b3beca0$9bebbe42@Samantha> Message-ID: <1109829745.32719.216445126@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 17:36:00 -0800, "Jean Lamb" said: > I was turned down for _Hallowed Hunt_ (whine), but was selected to read > _Sundial_ by Mary Gentle. Whee! .... (I will > pass over _Ancient Light_, I'm over wanting to smack Lynn Christie upside > the head now), I was glad to land this one. > Oh, I'm GLAD I'm not the only one who was vastly annoyed by Ancient Light, especially since Golden Witchbreed was so good. I liked Orcs too - cos I'm sick - but couldn't get into Rats and Gargoyles. It'd be interesting to hear your thoughts on Sundial (ie. non-miserable ending?) --------________--------________-------- From tora.smulders at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 08:23:26 2005 From: tora.smulders at gmail.com (Tora K. Smulders-Srinivasan) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:23:26 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Re: FirstLook--turned down on one, but got another now OT: orcs In-Reply-To: <006701c51f91$5b3beca0$9bebbe42@Samantha> References: <200503021201.MAA15228@talia3.herald.co.uk> <006701c51f91$5b3beca0$9bebbe42@Samantha> Message-ID: <4afcc128050303002352989516@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 17:36:00 -0800, Jean Lamb wrote: > I was turned down for _Hallowed Hunt_ (whine), but was selected to read > _Sundial_ by Mary Gentle. Whee! Since I adored _Rats and Gargoyles_, have > inhaled Dumas since learning how to read, and rather liked _Orcs_ eeek! I couldn't get into _Orcs_ at all!! Just really found it boring. Guess I just don't have the right personality to enjoy it! -Tora --------________--------________-------- From jessybrody at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 09:01:58 2005 From: jessybrody at gmail.com (Jessy Brody) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:01:58 +0000 Subject: [LMB] (OT:) more gmail invites Message-ID: > Yeah, I've got 50 invites, first come first serve. And it really is > great; I only keep my yahoo account bc I'm in a couple yahoo groups. Margaret Dean: I'm here to tell you that you don't have to have a Yahoo mail account to be in Yahoo groups. I've been in many of the latter without the former for years now. :) Me: Hey, really? Wow. >From now on, things are going to be different. Thanks : ) JLB -- Welcome to Triage -Kurt Vonnegut He was never noisy and lacked the dogmatism of the insecure -written of George Orwell --------________--------________-------- From jessybrody at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 09:04:51 2005 From: jessybrody at gmail.com (Jessy Brody) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:04:51 +0000 Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT:, was ConDFW Message-ID: The one book I've read by Brust is Agyar. At least, I think it's by Brust and I think that's what it's called but I guess the filter thinks 'brust' looks too much like 'breast' so I can't google it. Anyway, Agyar is basically about vampires, kind of hardboiled detective style but from the *other* point of view. Actually, the first time I read it, I didn't realize it was about vampires, but I was 12 or 13 and hadn't been exposed to Anne Rice yet. And the word vampire is never used. Conceptually, it's an interesting book. I tried reading something else by Brust, Taltos I think or something like that, after about 25 pages decided it wasn't worth the bother. I would put that in stronger terms, but there are Brust fans out there, so ... anyway, the two books were so different that I'm frankly wondering if they're by the same person. Which is why I'd really like to google it. Eureka! Found a way around the filter. Yes, Agyar is by Brust. The man himself says of it: 'I think this is my best book to date. It was written in six weeks, which is damn fast for me. It came out pretty much the way I wanted it to, though.' And I just realized that I gave my brother Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grille; he said it was ok kind of noncommitally, when I asked him what he thought, but then he's 15. Also, I bought Freedom and Necessity, co-written with Emma Bull (who?), years ago, but was put off by its length ('It's a Victorian epistolary novel, or I suppose you could call it a fantasy for Hegelians', which makes me feel I should give it a go just to satisfy my curiosity). This guy just keeps popping up. Obviously I need to give him another chance. Though judging by what other ppl have been saying, most ppl like some of his stuff but not all of his stuff. JLB -- Welcome to Triage -Kurt Vonnegut He was never noisy and lacked the dogmatism of the insecure -written of George Orwell --------________--------________-------- From jessybrody at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 09:10:14 2005 From: jessybrody at gmail.com (Jessy Brody) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:10:14 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Book club questions (moving OT:) Heinlein Message-ID: The one Heinlein that I've ever finished - and which I enjoyed and have reread many times - is Starship Troopers - given to me by my youngest uncle upon the occasion of the celebration of my bat mitzvah (I was 13), along with some other things. Actually, I think he gave me Agyar by Brust then. I tried reading Farnham's Freehold but didn't get far; actually, I seem to recall being irritated by his portrayal of men and women. Anyway, if I liked Starship Troopers, but didn't like Farnham's Freehold (the first 25 pages or so, anyway), what else might I like? JLB -- Welcome to Triage -Kurt Vonnegut He was never noisy and lacked the dogmatism of the insecure -written of George Orwell --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at lunainternet.net Thu Mar 3 10:58:19 2005 From: jbryant at lunainternet.net (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:58:19 +0000 Subject: [LMB] QUOTES In-Reply-To: <200503030604.GAA21136@talia3.herald.co.uk> References: <200503030604.GAA21136@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050303105410.01ffd400@pop.lunainternet.net> Sasha says:- >Hope this is okay to send... >don't know what else to say >to fix the quote/reply ratio. If the quote length is below five lines the quote pixie does not care about the ratio. I may be anal, but I'm not THAT anal. James http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=6746711372&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at lunainternet.net Thu Mar 3 11:06:53 2005 From: jbryant at lunainternet.net (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:06:53 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Adverts - Sorry Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050303110348.01ff9450@pop.lunainternet.net> Sorry about the advert sig on the last post, I'd been sending it to some folks who WERE interested and forgot to turn if off. James - more or less recovered from 'flu and off travelling on Saturday Plenty well - no pray; Big bellyache - heap God. [Ambrose Bierce] --------________--------________-------- From bobug at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 12:30:04 2005 From: bobug at yahoo.com (The Sundance Kid) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 04:30:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #4778 - 23 msgs In-Reply-To: <200503030604.GAA21132@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050303123004.83330.qmail@web52010.mail.yahoo.com> Hey there - Just a question - Where did you sign up for the First Look? I found one from Harper's, but there was /nothing/ Sci-fi/Fantasy there. Thanks! :) -Heather ===== When we walk to the edge of all the light we have and take the step into the darkness of the unknown, we must believe that one of two things will happen. There will be something solid for us to stand on or we will be taught to fly. - Frank Outlaw Sooner or later, you are going to learn, just as I did, that there is a difference between KNOWING the path and WALKING the path. -Morpheus "Luminous beings are we- not this crude matter." -Yoda __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --------________--------________-------- From bobug at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 12:47:49 2005 From: bobug at yahoo.com (The Sundance Kid) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 04:47:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #4779 - 7 msgs In-Reply-To: <200503031201.MAA23083@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050303124749.94753.qmail@web52003.mail.yahoo.com> ************ The one Heinlein that I've ever finished - and which I enjoyed and have reread many times - is Starship Troopers - given to me by my youngest uncle upon the occasion of the celebration of my bat mitzvah (I was 13), along with some other things. Actually, I think he gave me Agyar by Brust then. I tried reading Farnham's Freehold but didn't get far; actually, I seem to recall being irritated by his portrayal of men and women. Anyway, if I liked Starship Troopers, but didn't like Farnham's Freehold (the first 25 pages or so, anyway), what else might I like? JLB ************* Hmm. Starship Troopers, to me, was fairly amusing (the advertisements and so on), so maybe you'd like Friday? There's some action, comedy, etc. 4xH has short stories of different "feels", but I did really enjoy two of them. My mind's blanking on others in the same vein... I've been stuck on Spider Robinson, and re-reading my LMB collection (I even got my boyfriend into Miles :)) -Heather ===== When we walk to the edge of all the light we have and take the step into the darkness of the unknown, we must believe that one of two things will happen. There will be something solid for us to stand on or we will be taught to fly. - Frank Outlaw Sooner or later, you are going to learn, just as I did, that there is a difference between KNOWING the path and WALKING the path. -Morpheus "Luminous beings are we- not this crude matter." -Yoda __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --------________--------________-------- From sfolse at cepheid.org Thu Mar 3 13:57:44 2005 From: sfolse at cepheid.org (Stephanie Folse) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:57:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT:, was ConDFW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050303075222.G28595@idoru.cepheid.org> On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Jessy Brody wrote: > Anyway, Agyar is basically about [...] Yes. You're not supposed to know what it's about before going in - that realization is supposed to dawn on you as you read it. The back-cover copy blew it in the first edition, and may still blow it for all I know since I haven't looked at it. > I tried reading something else by Brust, Taltos I think or something > like that, after about 25 pages decided it wasn't worth the bother. I > would put that in stronger terms, but there are Brust fans out there, Does it help to know that Taltos is not a standalone novel, that it's partway through a series and there's a lot you should know before going in? Start with Jhereg. > so ... anyway, the two books were so different that I'm frankly > wondering if they're by the same person. Which is why I'd really like > to google it. Brust tells most of his stories a different way each time, except for the series startign with the Phoenix Guards, which stays pretty much in Dumas-pastiche all the way through. > give him another chance. Though judging by what other ppl have been > saying, most ppl like some of his stuff but not all of his stuff. Yup. I love the Dragaera series(es) - Jhereg/Phoenix Guards - and I liked Cowboy Feng and Agyar when I first read them, but haven't been able to get back in to it, and have bounced hard off of Freedom and Necessity, and To Reign in Hell. --Stephanie --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Thu Mar 3 14:38:55 2005 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 09:38:55 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: romance novel covers that didn't make it References: <6.2.1.2.1.20050224004111.02df9080@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4227217F.16D975C2@erols.com> Thank you! It hurts when I laugh that hard. --------________--------________-------- From harimad2001 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 15:10:13 2005 From: harimad2001 at yahoo.com (J Selin) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:10:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Buzzards on Barrayar? In-Reply-To: <200503030604.GAA21132@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050303151014.88627.qmail@web53702.mail.yahoo.com> Pouncer mentioned that "We know there aren't many bats on Barrayar because they can't eat the bugs." Textev, please? I can't recall this. > And THAT suggests to me an origin or at Least re-inforcement of the funeral pyre Traditions. > There are other reasons, in RL, why flaming funerals develop. Lack of arable land is one of the most common. Time, plus a plethora ... Hey, wait a minute. Bodies are buried,* then pyres lit afterward with items of remembrance. So Pouncer's hypothesis can't be right because bodies aren't burned. * textev: Miles buries Bothari's body at end of WA; Cordelia finds Piotr in a graveyard at end of SoH; Elena visits Bothari's grave (*not* memorial but grave) and lights a fire, and so on. Happy birthday Patrick, Harimad also rejected __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --------________--------________-------- From louann at millerdome.com Thu Mar 3 15:19:12 2005 From: louann at millerdome.com (louann at millerdome.com) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 15:19:12 -0000 Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT:, was ConDFW Message-ID: <20050303151914.608C914DA45@mail07.powweb.com> Anyway, Agyar is basically about vampires, kind of hardboiled detective style but from the *other* point of view. Actually, the first time I read it, I didn't realize it was about vampires, but I was 12 or 13 and hadn't been exposed to Anne Rice yet. And the word vampire is never used. Conceptually, it's an interesting book. Trivia: I'm told that Agyar is Hungarian for "fang." Louann --------________--------________-------- From harimad2001 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 15:28:18 2005 From: harimad2001 at yahoo.com (J Selin) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:28:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Bull (was re Brust) OT: Message-ID: <20050303152818.98287.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> Jessy wrote: I bought Freedom and Necessity, co-written with Emma Bull (who?), years ago, Me: Emma Bull is a good author but hasn't written much. War For The Oaks, her first, was a fantasy. Her second, Falcon, is SF. Her third, Bone Dance, is a weird mix that not everyone likes. Since then I think she's been writing Bordertown stories with her husband Will Shetterly (who?). I like all her books - including Bone Dance, although it took some getting used to - and wish she'd write more. Harimad __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From harimad2001 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 16:06:58 2005 From: harimad2001 at yahoo.com (J Selin) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:06:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] The Mother, Ista, and ex-sainthood Message-ID: <20050303160658.10229.qmail@web53702.mail.yahoo.com> Rereading "Paladin of Souls" I was struck much more strongly by a thought I had while reading "Curse of Chalion," that the Mother did very badly by Ista. When she was first touched by the Mother, Ista thought she was going mad. When Ias finally explained, Ista was reassured on the issue of madness but I expect madness would have been better. Then Ista, Ias and dy Lupez failed. The Mother withdrew Her touch, Ista was widowed. Ista became a broken person: depressed, withdrawn, unempowered, a little crazy, held in silk-wrapped distain by those who loved her. As far as we can tell, no god ever reached out to help Ista, either; which doesn't seem like a good way to treat a former saint. Humans didn't do well by Ista either. Why didn't any religious figure notice she was a saint? In CoC, Umegat says that that former saints are treated well. Why wasn't Ista? Not only was she not treated well, it seems that no one knew she ever was a saint. How did this happen? Harimad __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu Mar 3 16:29:23 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:29:23 -0500 Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT:, was ConDFW In-Reply-To: <20050303075222.G28595@idoru.cepheid.org> References: <20050303075222.G28595@idoru.cepheid.org> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050303112714.034e5eb0@pop.east.cox.net> At 08:57 03/03/2005, Stephanie Folse wrote: >On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Jessy Brody wrote: > >>Anyway, Agyar is basically about [...] > >Yes. You're not supposed to know what it's about before going in - that >realization is supposed to dawn on you as you read it. The back-cover >copy blew it in the first edition, and may still blow it for all I know >since I haven't looked at it. > >>I tried reading something else by Brust, Taltos I think or something >>like that, after about 25 pages decided it wasn't worth the bother. I >>would put that in stronger terms, but there are Brust fans out there, > >Does it help to know that Taltos is not a standalone novel, that it's >partway through a series and there's a lot you should know before going >in? Start with Jhereg. You know, Jessy might like _The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_. I did (but then, except for _To Reign in Hell_, I am a Brust junkie). -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From celticdragonfly at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 16:33:41 2005 From: celticdragonfly at gmail.com (Laura Gallagher) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:33:41 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Buzzards on Barrayar? In-Reply-To: <20050303151014.88627.qmail@web53702.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200503030604.GAA21132@talia3.herald.co.uk> <20050303151014.88627.qmail@web53702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <209a74ed050303083347abddc7@mail.gmail.com> > Pouncer mentioned that "We know there aren't many bats on Barrayar > because they can't eat the bugs." Harimad asked: > Textev, please? I can't recall this. >From Memory, Chapter 4: Vorkosigan House sat in the center, set off from the street by a narrow green strip of lawn and garden in the loop of the semicircular drive. A stone wall topped with black wrought-iron spikes surrounded it all. The four stories of great gray stone blocks, in two main wings plus some extra odd architectural bits, rose in a vast archaic mass. All it needed was window slits and a moat. And a few bats and ravens, for decoration. Earth-descended bats were rare on Barrayar, as there were not enough earth-descended insects for them to eat, and the native creatures incorrectly called bugs were usually toxic when ingested. A force screen just inside the wall provided the real protection, and eliminated the romantic possibility of bats. A concrete kiosk beside the gate housed the gate guards; in the heyday of the Regency three full platoons of ImpSec guards had traded shifts around the clock, in posts all around the building and for several blocks beyond, watching the important government men hurry in and out. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From celticdragonfly at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 16:35:51 2005 From: celticdragonfly at gmail.com (Laura Gallagher) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:35:51 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Bujold book online - this legit or pirated? Message-ID: <209a74ed05030308353ca77bfc@mail.gmail.com> I was complaining to Karl that I didn't have an e-text searchable version of Memory to pull up that textevd I just posted. He found this: http://fictionbook.ru/author/bujold_lois_mcmaster/barrayar_10_memory/bujold_barrayar_10_memory.html I'm wondering if this is a legit copy of the work, or as I suspect, a pirated copy online without permission. The main page of the site is in Russian, which I cannot read. So I thought I'd send this to the list so that if Lois needs to know about it to have her publishers take action, they can. Although I don't know if anything helpful can be done with international websites or not. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From kevink45 at hotmail.com Thu Mar 3 16:43:28 2005 From: kevink45 at hotmail.com (Kevin Kennedy) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:43:28 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: ILL In-Reply-To: <200503012123.VAA10285@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Some libraries charge to loan things out, some don't. I don't think I've ever asked for an ILL from a library that charged at the recieving end. The few times I've ever asked for an ILL here in Indianapolis, the form does have a space for 'How much do you want to pay for this?' and I just fill in $0. They'll borrow it from somewhere that does not charge. I'd only pay for an ILL if it was work-related or for academic research. When someone wiil pay to borrow, the library will pick the least expensive option among the avaliable choices. Someone may need something desperately enough to be willing to pay $50(random #), but if a library will charge less than that, that's where the material will come from. If you request something from a magazine, you'll get a photocopy, and probably the copying charges at least. Some things no library will loan out are very new&popular material, most reference matrial and any thing rare. So I'll never even try to ask for the newest Harry Potter or a Gutenber bible. Kevin Laura quoting Stephanie(I think) > > There's also interlibrary loan, which should allow your local library to > > get just about any book wihtout you ahving to drive across town, if your > > library subscribes to it. The Fort Worth library should definitely have > > the service. > >Saginaw charges significantly for it. Evil bad library. Only Heyers >are a couple of her mysteries, NO Bujold, and they won't even let me >give them any! [insert rest of the standard rant here] > >Driving across town currently seems my best option. And hey, >difficult though it can be with the kids, it gets me out of the house >occasionally, so probably a good idea. > >Thanks for the additional info. > >Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Thu Mar 3 18:12:30 2005 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:12:30 -0000 Subject: [LMB] Book club questions (moving OT:) Heinlein Message-ID: <200503031813.SAA25314@talia3.herald.co.uk> > From: Jessy Brody > Date: 03 March 2005 09:10 > > The one Heinlein that I've ever finished - and which I enjoyed and [...] > Anyway, if I liked Starship Troopers, but didn't like Farnham's > Freehold (the first 25 pages or so, anyway), what else might I like? Certainly you should try _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ (revolution on Luna) and _The Number of the Beast_ and _Have Spacesuit will Travel_ (a YA). I think tMiaHM is the very best that Heinlein wrote. For a non Heinlein, how about Elizabeth Moon's Once a Hero (special LE award for a space navy story that doesn't have a nasty Admiral in it) ? Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Thu Mar 3 18:19:54 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:19:54 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Farnham's Freehold, UGH! References: <20050303124749.94753.qmail@web52003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <14ae01c5201d$99ee7850$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Sundance Kid" > ************ > The one Heinlein that I've ever finished - and which I enjoyed and > have reread many times - is Starship Troopers - given to me by my > youngest uncle upon the occasion of the celebration of my bat mitzvah > (I was 13), along with some other things. Actually, I think he gave me > Agyar by Brust then. > > I tried reading Farnham's Freehold but didn't get far; actually, I > seem to recall being irritated by his portrayal of men and women. What about Double Star, or Between Planets [may or may not be dated, though....], the omnibus The Past through Tomorrow, possibly Glory Road,.. stay away from Sixth Column My college dorm floor deprecated Stranger in a Strange Land (which did win a Hugo), I Will Fear No Evil, and Time Enough for Love as Stranger in a Strange Sex, I Will Fear No Sex, and Time Enough for Lust.... novels in which Heinlein go to write abou s*e*x and didn't stop.... I Will Fear No Evil I stopped reading halfway though and thought was a massive stinker all around. Hmm, there's The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, The Rolling Stones.... > Anyway, if I liked Starship Troopers, but didn't like Farnham's > Freehold (the first 25 pages or so, anyway), what else might I like? Strange suddenly for me to think, Heinlein's book had to have been a major influence on Lois' work--they were an major influence on almost every writer in the field for more than 50 years. But Heinlein's been dead quite a while now, and what gets pushed are new books by live authors, with reprinting done only if the writer's current work is popular enough for the author's previous work to be kept in print with new readers coming for the new work and discovering the old. There are situations where small presses do a much better job of keeping books in print than major publishers--NESFA's been keeping the NESFA editions of the novels NESFA had done hardcover editions of in print, and the greatest likelihood is that they're going to stay in print for the forseeable future--I haven't heard anyone in NESFA suggest otherwise. Smaller presses don't have the pressures as big commercial conglomerates regarding meeting Wall Street expectations for profit growth and continuing profit this quarter--losing money on publishing will drive any press that isn't being run for someone to get a tax loss or as a subsided hobby out of existence eventually, but there is a long way between attractive profit margins for big institutional investors, and a small business with an acceptable surplus for its owners of income over expenses. Getting back to Heinlein, though, I wonder how Heinlein's work looks to people under 30, 25, 20.... Heinlein came from a very different world that the contemporary one in technology, values, communications systems--Heinlein was an adult before commercial television, before the digital computer, before data communications, before low cost commercial air service, before the explosion of automobiles such that they became ubiquitous, before the Interstate and Defense Highway System, long before the explosion of fantasy novels, before the personal computer, long before cell phones -- the modern ubiquitousness of cell phones came after he was gone, no reality TV shows, before Johnny Carson and Carson's long off TV.... the take-for-granted modern lifestyle didn't exist in Heinlein's formative years and for most of his life. I can't read Heinlein as someone coming to Heinlein's work unacquainted with it. I read Lois' first novel long after having read dozens of books by Heinlein, work by Asimov, Simak, Zelazny, Sturgeon, Ballard, C. L. Moore, Kuttner, van Vagt, E. Mayne Hull, Edmond Hamilton, Leigh Brackett, Delany, Poul Anderson, Gordon R. Dickson, EE Smith, James Schmitz, Cordwainer Smith, Lord of the the Rings... but today readers are more likely to have Robert Jordan and Terry Goodkind and Laurell K. Hamilton, Tamora Pierce, Lois's work, David *b*r, John Ringo, "Robin Hobb," and other contemporary prolific popular authors' work, before being exposed to Dead Writers' Work, like Heinlein, Van Vogt, Gordon R. Dickson, Brackett, etc. --------________--------________-------- From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Thu Mar 3 18:33:01 2005 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:33:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Heinlein was Re: [LMB] Book club questions (moving OT:) Heinlein In-Reply-To: <200503031813.SAA25314@talia3.herald.co.uk> References: <200503031813.SAA25314@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: There's a Good Heinlein, and there's Pretty Bad Heinlein, and there's Middling Heinlein. Unless you're a completist, there's so much Good Heinlein that you can ignore the others. Farnham's Freehold is in the Pretty Bad category -- even if you agreed with it, you'd have to admit it's badly written. If I was going to start someone off with Heinlein, I'd choose: Double Star The Moon is a Harsh Mistress Glory Road Citizen of the Galaxy Have Spacesuit, Will Travel The Puppet Masters The Door into Summer If they like those, you can go on from there, warning them off the clunkers. -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca "I am not amused by this 21st century. I want to take it back for a full refund, and can we have a real one, please?" -- Charles Stross (Locus, January, 2005) --------________--------________-------- From ginni.berger at juno.com Thu Mar 3 19:38:21 2005 From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:38:21 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Book club questions (moving OT:) Heinlein Message-ID: <20050303.150617.336.0.ginni.berger@juno.com> On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:10:14 +0000 Jessy Brody writes: > The one Heinlein that I've ever finished - and which I enjoyed and > have reread many times - is Starship Troopers - given to me by my > youngest uncle upon the occasion of the celebration of my bat > mitzvah > (I was 13), along with some other things. Actually, I think he gave > me > Agyar by Brust then. > > I tried reading Farnham's Freehold but didn't get far; actually, I > seem to recall being irritated by his portrayal of men and women. > > Anyway, if I liked Starship Troopers, but didn't like Farnham's > Freehold (the first 25 pages or so, anyway), what else might I > like? > > JLB Try "Number of the Beast." It's one of my favorite Heinlein stories, and the science is very interesting, but Pixel isn't in that one. It goes all over the literary universes, and connects them all just through the use of a multi-dimensional aircar who becomes Sentient. But I'm never loaning it to my brothers ever again- it took me 5 years to get it back. Grr. Heinlein's sense of humor is evident (to me, at least) all over this book. ;-) Ginnilee Lady Lavender of Teal --------________--------________-------- From becca_price at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 21:51:53 2005 From: becca_price at yahoo.com (Becca Price) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:51:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Farnham's Freehold, UGH! In-Reply-To: <14ae01c5201d$99ee7850$0100a8c0@heaviside> Message-ID: <20050303215153.67064.qmail@web41007.mail.yahoo.com> > What about Double Star, or Between Planets [may or may not be > dated, > though....], the omnibus The Past through Tomorrow, possibly > Glory Road,.. > stay away from Sixth Column Heinlein pretty much bottomed out for me with Podkane of Mars. I'm extremely fond of Double Star (there's a Kurosawa movie with a similar plot; can't recall the name..) and Glory Road. -Becca __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --------________--------________-------- From scott.r.padget at boeing.com Thu Mar 3 22:00:26 2005 From: scott.r.padget at boeing.com (Padget, Scott R) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:00:26 -0600 Subject: [LMB] The Mother, Ista, and ex-sainthood Message-ID: <62F80D7D3ED3234B907FF0004C56CB890190429A@xch-se-20.se.nos.b oeing.com> Harimad asks: > the Mother did very badly by Ista. > Humans didn't do well by Ista either. > How did this happen? I assume it's a series of effects related to the Curse: a) The Curse had its own aura, which was not visible to "ordinary" saints. (Caz could see it, but he's a special case. Lifting the Curse was the *reason* for his sainthood.) It doesn't seem much of a stretch to presume that the Curse's aura damped/concealed her saintly aura, thus hiding her statud from other saints. (It also strikes me as something the Curse *would* do if it could, since depriving Ista of recognition and aid both hurts her as a member of the royal house *and* hurts the royal house in toto through denying potential additional resources in removing the Curse.) b) People *did* try to help her to the best of her ability. But anything they did made the problem worse, not better. Very much the way the Curse tended to respond to efforts to alleviate the royal family's sufferings/misfortunes, don't you think? c) The Mother's ability to "reach" Ista through the Curse may have been impaired above and beyond the gods' rather limited ability to communicate their needs and desires to humans. I suspect that if Ista hadn't been a member of the royal family herself (and hence subject to the ravages of the Curse) things might have gone much better. Pilot Padget--on topic for once --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Thu Mar 3 22:19:54 2005 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:19:54 -0000 Subject: [LMB] The Mother, Ista, and ex-sainthood Message-ID: <200503032220.WAA26722@talia3.herald.co.uk> > From: Padget, Scott R > Date: 03 March 2005 22:00 > > I assume it's a series of effects related to the Curse: > > a) The Curse had its own aura, which was not visible to "ordinary" > saints. (Caz could see it, but he's a special case. Lifting the [...] The texev is against you on this point. At least two out of the three "ordinary" saints could see the curse (don't think we were told about Clara the midwife). Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Thu Mar 3 22:52:32 2005 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:52:32 -0600 Subject: [LMB] The Mother, Ista, and ex-sainthood In-Reply-To: <20050303160658.10229.qmail@web53702.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050303160658.10229.qmail@web53702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050303225232.GA7249@fireopal.org> On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 08:06:58AM -0800, J Selin wrote: > Humans didn't do well by Ista either. Why didn't any religious > figure notice she was a saint? In CoC, Umegat says that that former > saints are treated well. Why wasn't Ista? Not only was she not > treated well, it seems that no one knew she ever was a saint. How > did this happen? >From the sound of it, saints aren't _that_ common - maybe she had the misfortune to not be seen by one in the period of time that she was sainted herself? A quick check of the textev (in Chapter 21 of CoC) says that Ista had the second sight twice - for a time while pregnant with Iselle, and again for most of her pregnancy with Teidez. The sight went away as soon as, or very shortly after, Iselle was born. It hung around longer after Teidez was born - long enough for Ista to see the Mother in the afternoon, and until dy Lutez' death. So, it sounds like she must have had it for over a year total. Oh, and there's a pointer that Ista has met saints in the past - this exchange (from slightly earlier in Chapter 21): "Not . . . hunting exactly. In a way it was . . ." Cazaril licked his lips, chapped with the cold. "Lady, do you see anything _odd_ about me?" "I see only with my eyes, now. I've been blind for years, you see. _You_ see?" Her emphasis made her meaning very plain, Cazaril thought. "Yes." She nodded and sat back. "I thought so. There is a look about one who sees with _those_ eyes." So, was she seen while she had the second sight? Good question. Oh, related question - are the only people who have second sight saints? IIRC, there is textev in PoS that sorcerors can have the second sight. But they are obviously NOT saints. So, if you are not a sorceror and do have the second sight, do you have to be a saint? -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From karl.gallagher at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 22:55:23 2005 From: karl.gallagher at gmail.com (Karl Gallagher) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:55:23 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Farnham's Freehold, UGH! In-Reply-To: <20050303215153.67064.qmail@web41007.mail.yahoo.com> References: <14ae01c5201d$99ee7850$0100a8c0@heaviside> <20050303215153.67064.qmail@web41007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9660cc680503031455157c8c43@mail.gmail.com> Becca Price wrote: > I'm extremely fond of Double Star (there's a Kurosawa movie with > a similar plot; can't recall the name..) Kagemusha http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080979/ -- Karl Gallagher http://www.livejournal.com/users/selenite/ --------________--------________-------- From peach at esedona.net Thu Mar 3 22:59:42 2005 From: peach at esedona.net (Jane Peach) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:59:42 -0700 Subject: Heinlein was Re: [LMB] Book club questions (moving OT:) References: <200503032203.WAA26601@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <015e01c52044$b14548e0$69261aac@JaneWork> > Alayne McGregor wrote > If I was going to start someone off with Heinlein, I'd choose: > Double Star > The Moon is a Harsh Mistress > Glory Road > Citizen of the Galaxy > Have Spacesuit, Will Travel > The Puppet Masters > The Door into Summer > Delurking to say I would agree with those and maybe add Job - a Comedy of Justice which I have appreciated more with rereading. Couldn't resist jumping into this discussion. Heinlein was my first sci-fi author more than 30 years ago and remained my favorite until I discovered LMB a few years ago. I see him bashed often in discussions of sci-fi and I'm glad that others here share my fondness for some of his work. Subsiding back into my cave now. Jane --------________--------________-------- From noelrappin at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 23:23:12 2005 From: noelrappin at gmail.com (Noel Rappin) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:23:12 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Farnham's Freehold, UGH! In-Reply-To: <14ae01c5201d$99ee7850$0100a8c0@heaviside> References: <20050303124749.94753.qmail@web52003.mail.yahoo.com> <14ae01c5201d$99ee7850$0100a8c0@heaviside> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:19:54 -0500, Paula Lieberman wrote: > Getting back to Heinlein, though, I wonder how Heinlein's work looks to > people under 30, 25, 20.... Heinlein came from a very different world that > the contemporary one in technology, values, communications systems Well, I'm a little bit over 30 (although through a quirk of local libraries, Heinlein was one of the first SF authors I read in depth). I like his best stuff well enough (although not as much as I did when I first read them), but I never quite drank the Best Author Ever kool-aid. The fact that he came from an earlier world never bothered me for him any more than it did for Asimov, Clarke or any of the other golden age writers -- (Not to mention older non-sf authors), although I assume there are references and assumptions that I don't fully appreciate. I think of Heinlein as analagous to Marlon Brando -- people working in the field universally declare him a major historical figure, and I can see that objectively, but can't quite feel it in my bones because by my time he was past his peak and bloated (literally in Brando's case, the books in Heinlein's...) Noel -- Noel Rappin noelrappin at alumni.brandeis.edu --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Thu Mar 3 23:44:37 2005 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:44:37 EST Subject: [LMB] The Mother, Ista, and ex-sainthood Message-ID: Harimad writes: >Humans didn't do well by Ista either. Why didn't any religious figure notice she was a saint? In CoC, Umegat says that that former saints are treated well. Why wasn't Ista? Not only was she not treated well, it seems that no one knew she ever was a saint. How did this happen?< M: Ista's experience with the Mother ended badly, but Ista rejected the Mother first after dy Lutez died, when she might have interceded with Her to revive him, but didn't. After all, the Mother couldn't act without a saint to act through, and Ista refused to allow her in. Umegat was recognized as a saint; Ista never was. A saint whom nobody knows is a saint could only be detected by another saint, and Mother Clara was the only one who _might_ have had the opportunity. Apparently she didn't, or wasn't there yet, or wasn't a saint herself yet. Umegat didn't come to the Zangre until after Ista had left it. I don't recall there being any saints in Valenda who might have recognized her as one. Even Cazaril was not a saint at that time. When he saw Ista after he became a saint, Caz recognized that she had the signs of former sainthood. The only ones who betrayed her were Ias and dy Lutez. She was treated inappropriately by others, but the point is made over and over that it was done with the best intentions. After all, if someone spends hours praying and weeping, talks to things you can't see, and converses in cryptic remarks, it could be sainthood or, more likely, schizophrenia. Mary --------________--------________-------- From WaWenri at aol.com Fri Mar 4 00:52:40 2005 From: WaWenri at aol.com (WaWenri at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:52:40 EST Subject: [LMB] The Mother, Ista, and ex-sainthood Message-ID: J Selin writes: <> But only a Saint can truly recognize a Saint. In the whole of CoC we see 5 saints or ex-saints; Caz, Umegat, the Mid-wife, Paganine and Ista. The only one who ever met Ista was Caz and she wasn't a saint then. Umegat was not only a saint but a temple divine as well. Bill Wenrich "... a hard heart is no defense against a soft head." - C.S.Lewis, "The Abolition of Man" --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Fri Mar 4 02:02:19 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:02:19 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Farnham's Freehold, UGH! OT: References: <20050303215153.67064.qmail@web41007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15e801c5205e$3314e830$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Becca Price" > Heinlein pretty much bottomed out for me with Podkane of Mars. > I'm extremely fond of Double Star (there's a Kurosawa movie with > a similar plot; can't recall the name..) and Glory Road. Kagomusha or somethng like that. Podkayne of Mars felt off to me because of the ending--but the ending that it was published with when it came out was editorial fiat. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Fri Mar 4 02:34:17 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:34:17 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Bull (was re Brust) OT: References: <20050303152818.98287.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <166601c52062$aa702fd0$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Selin" > Emma Bull is a good author but hasn't written much. War For The > Oaks, her first, was a fantasy. Her second, Falcon, is SF. Her > third, Bone Dance, is a weird mix that not everyone likes. Since > then I think she's been writing Bordertown stories with her husband > Will Shetterly (who?). I like all her books - including Bone Dance, > although it took some getting used to - and wish she'd write more. Last I was aware of the pair of them were in LA and had gotten involved in the film industry, writing screenplays or some such--which generally pays a LOT better than writing novels. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Fri Mar 4 02:43:23 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:43:23 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Book club questions (moving OT:) Heinlein References: <20050303.150617.336.0.ginni.berger@juno.com> Message-ID: <166701c52063$efe12cd0$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ginnilee p berger" > On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:10:14 +0000 Jessy Brody > writes: > > The one Heinlein that I've ever finished - and which I enjoyed and > > have reread many times - is Starship Troopers - given to me by my > > youngest uncle upon the occasion of the celebration of my bat > > mitzvah > > (I was 13), along with some other things. Actually, I think he gave > > me > > Agyar by Brust then. > > > > I tried reading Farnham's Freehold but didn't get far; actually, I > > seem to recall being irritated by his portrayal of men and women. > > The good news and the bad news about Heinlein and female characters--the good news was that he sometimes actually had women in his stories, and there were more than Trophy Wives. The bad news is that he was still a product of his time and culture, and his women had a tendency to be superwomen "The females on Ganymede would have the chicken killed, plucking , and cooking before an Earthside girl would've stopped screaming" -- paraphrased out of Farmer in the Sky. Someone mentioned Citizen of the Galaxy, that was one of my favorite books when I was a child. But I haven'[t done any rereading of any Heinlein in years. For those looking for a seriously warped story, go find "All You Zombies." It starts off with the first person protagonist in the bar drinking Old Underwear I think he called the booze, and thinking to himself about the Unwed Mother. That's how it -starts-. If you don't want to deal with twisted story, keep away from this one! > > Anyway, if I liked Starship Troopers, but didn't like Farnham's > > Freehold (the first 25 pages or so, anyway), what else might I > > like? > > > > JLB > > Try "Number of the Beast." It's one of my favorite Heinlein stories, and > the science is very interesting, but Pixel isn't in that one. > It goes all over the literary universes, and connects them all just > through the use of a multi-dimensional aircar who becomes Sentient. But > I'm never loaning it to my brothers ever again- it took me 5 years to get > it back. Grr. Heinlein's sense of humor is evident (to me, at least) all > over this book. ;-) My sister tried to dissuade me from reading Number of the Beast, she was extremely disappointed with it and went into a long description of plot etc. in hopes of preventing me from what she viewed as me wasting my time reading it. I tried to explain to her that I would be reading it for the injokes, not for the book itself, but she didn't want to hear that.... the last chapter was full of people I knew.... --------________--------________-------- From ndrosen at erols.com Fri Mar 4 02:52:11 2005 From: ndrosen at erols.com (Nicholas Rosen) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:52:11 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Farnham's Freehold, UGH! Message-ID: <00e501c52065$2ed19500$083a2c42@oemcomputer> Paula Lieberman wrote: > Heinlein came from a very different world that the contemporary > one in technology, values, communications systems--Heinlein > was an adult before commercial television, before the digital > computer, before data communications, before low cost > commercial air service, before the explosion of automobiles such > that they became ubiquitous, before the Interstate and Defense > Highway System, long before the explosion of fantasy novels, before > the personal computer, long before cell phones -- the modern > ubiquitousness of cell phones came after he was gone, no reality > TV shows, before Johnny Carson and Carson's long off TV.... > the take-for-granted modern lifestyle didn't exist in Heinlein's > formative years and for most of his life. Quite true. But I'd like to point out that the protagonist carries a mobile phone in the first scene of _Space Cadet_. Heinlein didn't foresee the future, but he did realize that it wouldn't be just like the past, and had some insight into how new technologies could change people's lifestyles and culture in unanticipated ways. Now as to what Heinlein to read, I'd mostly endorse what most of the other people who've joined in have been saying, although I don't share Ginnilee's high opinion of _The Number of the Beast_. If that would appeal to you at all, try reading it after reading the rest of R.A.H.'s work. Given the preferences you've expressed, Jessie, I'd recommend _Citizen of the Galaxy_ in particular. I think that was the best of Heinlein's juveniles, and _Starship Troopers_ was to have been another juvenile in the series, but the publisher who had been doing that series did *not* like it. Try looking at the copyright dates. Before about 1970, Heinlein wrote relatively old-fashioned books, and then he, ah, changed. I'm not saying everything he wrote later in life is bad, far from it, but if you like certain kinds of things and not others, well, that's how I'd start. But *do* read _Expanded Universe_, published about 1980. That is seriously excellent. Regards, Nicholas Rosen www.livejournal.com/users/ndrosen --------________--------________-------- From tlambs1138 at charter.net Fri Mar 4 03:27:02 2005 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:27:02 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Sundial (Mary Gentle) References: <200503030604.GAA21128@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <006801c5206a$09427660$9bebbe42@Samantha> >Oh, marvelous. I was turned down for that one. Let us know what you >think of it. >Laura --I certainly will--I'll probably post the review here as well as to FirstLook. Jean Lamb, tlambs1138 at charter.net "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you are crunchy and good with lemon drops." --------________--------________-------- From tlambs1138 at charter.net Fri Mar 4 03:35:18 2005 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:35:18 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Ancient Light References: <200503030604.GAA21128@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <006c01c5206b$3054a3d0$9bebbe42@Samantha> From: "Tracy MacShane" On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 17:36:00 -0800, "Jean Lamb" Oh, I'm GLAD I'm not the only one who was vastly annoyed by Ancient Light, especially since Golden Witchbreed was so good. I liked Orcs too - cos I'm sick - but couldn't get into Rats and Gargoyles. It'd be interesting to hear your thoughts on Sundial (ie. non-miserable ending?) --I found _Rats and Gargoyles_ utterly fascinating myself--all those bizarre societies co-existing with each other, with satin and silk curiously cheap. I adored Lord-Architect Causabon, and his idea of the artillery garden. Given today's contemporary art, I'm surprised no one's done it for real (we shall pass gently o'er past, present and future politics at this point, despite the tremendous temptation to point out just how _pretty_ certain explosives are). Jean Lamb, tlambs1138 at charter.net "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you are crunchy and good with lemon drops." --------________--------________-------- From karl.gallagher at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 03:52:41 2005 From: karl.gallagher at gmail.com (Karl Gallagher) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:52:41 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Re: Farnham's Freehold, UGH! In-Reply-To: <00e501c52065$2ed19500$083a2c42@oemcomputer> References: <00e501c52065$2ed19500$083a2c42@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <9660cc680503031952388b3ec2@mail.gmail.com> Nicholas Rosen wrote: > Heinlein > didn't foresee the future, but he did realize that it wouldn't be just > like the past, and had some insight into how new technologies > could change people's lifestyles and culture in unanticipated ways. > For another good example, see the scene in Friday where she gets carried away surfing the internet. Exactly describes how I've wandered about the web, and Heinlein's closest experience was looking up cross-references in an encyclopedia. -- Karl Gallagher http://www.livejournal.com/users/selenite/ --------________--------________-------- From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Fri Mar 4 04:38:44 2005 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 23:38:44 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: THAT song Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.1.20050303233649.02d2ab80@pop.mindspring.com> Tom Vinson introduces the innocent list to Terence Chua's "Banned From Arkham." Terence used to be a magistrate [iow, a former lawyer] in Singapore who got his start in filk by writing Cthulhu filks to Abba tunes. He is now pursuing a graduate degree at the University of Georgia. When y'all come to GaFilk, he's another of the talented [and twisted] folks you'll be able to hear. [note: this has been a subtle hint. ;)] Jerrie --------________--------________-------- From cessnadriver at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 05:28:14 2005 From: cessnadriver at gmail.com (James) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:28:14 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Bujold book online - this legit or pirated? In-Reply-To: <209a74ed05030308353ca77bfc@mail.gmail.com> References: <209a74ed05030308353ca77bfc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3b8ab98e05030321286df0a00c@mail.gmail.com> Almost always not. In fact, though, I'd suspect it's just one of the many electronic versions that are floating around that someone decided to post online. (It really isn't that hard to find... either you go looking, or just be patient and it comes to you.) I have the hardcopy books, but I tend to read it via an electronic copy since it's a bit more convenient to carry the entire series in a tiny package than a whole shelf of books. --------________--------________-------- From mike at dendarii.co.uk Fri Mar 4 06:48:58 2005 From: mike at dendarii.co.uk (Michael Bernardi) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 06:48:58 GMT Subject: [LMB] Lois McMaster Bujold Mailing List Weekly FAQ FAQ Message-ID: <2009@dendarii.co.uk> Last-Modified: 25 September 2004 Version: 2.0.6 Being a Pointer to where to find Answers to Frequently Asked Questions ====================================================================== This document was compiled by Michael Bernardi, to allow subscribers to the Lois-Bujold mailing list to easily find where the FAQs are. Having this FAQ posted weekly to the list then allows the posting of the OTHER FAQs to be every two months and thus reduce list traffic. Three FAQs have been developed since this list was created in October 1994. The Bio FAQ has been deleted, as all the information previously given here, can be found at "The Bujold Nexus" in the "Author Info" and "Book Info" sections. This document was originally created in December 1998. The FAQs ======== Lois McMaster Bujold Mailing List Administrivia FAQ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_admin.html Last Updated: 28 October 2002 Explains how to join and use the Lois-Bujold mailing list, hosted at http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold Lois McMaster Bujold Mailing List FAQ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_lst.html Last updated: 27 September 2003 This document attempts to answer Frequently Asked Questions which occur on the Mailing List about the list itself, including guidelines for off-topic discussions, spoiler discussion, and excessive quoting, and list conventions and in-jokes. Also includes pointers to other mailing lists and to Web sites about Lois McMaster Bujold and her work. Lois McMaster Bujold List PLOT Frequently Asked Questions ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_faq.html Last Updated: 30 June 2003 This document attempts to answer Frequently Asked Questions which occur on the Mailing List about Plot lines that occur in the work of Lois McMaster Bujold. This includes answers from Lois herself. The Bujold Nexus: The Lois McMaster Bujold Homepage ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.com Last Updated: 25 September 2004 This is the Official site to find information about Lois McMaster Bujold on the Web. Lois has provided some information herself, and other material has come from other fans. The Bujold Nexus Overflow Site ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Bujold.html Last Updated: 25 September 2004 This contains all the stuff that isn't really appropriate at the main site. ie fan fiction, fan art, photos, and filk. Please send details of any material such material to the address indicated. Note I am not responsible for the mail server hardware OR software. Both these are under the control of Mel Harper . Any feedback on this post cheerfully received by Michael Bernardi . -- Michael Bernardi mike_at_dendarii.co.uk --------________--------________-------- From ravingglory at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 07:52:01 2005 From: ravingglory at yahoo.com (Anna Blumstein) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:52:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] OT: A Younger take on Heinlein In-Reply-To: <14ae01c5201d$99ee7850$0100a8c0@heaviside> Message-ID: <20050304075201.87651.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> Paula Lieberman wrote: Getting back to Heinlein, though, I wonder how Heinlein's work looks to people under 30, 25, 20.... Heinlein came from a very different world that the contemporary one in technology, values, communications systems--Heinlein was an adult before commercial television, before the digital computer, before data communications, before low cost commercial air service, before the explosion of automobiles such that they became ubiquitous, before the Interstate and Defense Highway System, long before the explosion of fantasy novels, before the personal computer, long before cell phones -- the modern ubiquitousness of cell phones came after he was gone, no reality TV shows, before Johnny Carson and Carson's long off TV.... the take-for-granted modern lifestyle didn't exist in Heinlein's formative years and for most of his life. I can't read Heinlein as someone coming to Heinlein's work unacquainted with it. I read Lois' first novel long after having read dozens of books by Heinlein, work by Asimov, Simak, Zelazny, Sturgeon, Ballard, C. L. Moore, Kuttner, van Vagt, E. Mayne Hull, Edmond Hamilton, Leigh Brackett, Delany, Poul Anderson, Gordon R. Dickson, EE Smith, James Schmitz, Cordwainer Smith, Lord of the the Rings... but today readers are more likely to have Robert Jordan and Terry Goodkind and Laurell K. Hamilton, Tamora Pierce, Lois's work, David *b*r, John Ringo, "Robin Hobb," and other contemporary prolific popular authors' work, before being exposed to Dead Writers' Work, like Heinlein, Van Vogt, Gordon R. Dickson, Brackett, etc. Me: Well I'm 21, so I'm going to try and offer insight. I've read some Heinlein. I'm one of those SF geeks who likes reading the "classics". I first read his work some time in high school, definately before reading Lois's stuff. I've read Stanger, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, the Rolling Stones, and Tunel in the Sky. The first thing that comes to mind when I think of Heinlein is that is treatment of women sets my teeth on egde. Now I haven't read most of his work so maybe some it better but there are passages where he referrs to women as "creatures" who are far differnt from "us." and other such details. Now the first time I read that it didn't phase me, but today it makes me want to scream. Didn't the man think females might read his work? On the same vain he tends to over sexulise women. His female chacters srike me as sex object who can think. However the ideas he wrote about are meaningful, reading his work made me think. (Which is why I read SF in the first place.) There are ancorrisms, like the lack of bio-tech, and much faster space travel than really happened, but they don't ruin my supestion of disbelive. (I'm not doing a great job of explaining am I? Do ask questions if you'd like me to elaborate on anything.) Anna --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --------________--------________-------- From redcap at orac.net.au Fri Mar 4 12:14:43 2005 From: redcap at orac.net.au (Melanie Harris) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:14:43 +1100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Fishies! In-Reply-To: <200503030604.GAA21136@talia3.herald.co.uk> References: <200503030604.GAA21136@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Kay! Togo's a betta? Cool! What colour? What type? *splashing noises ensue as about 35 bettas try to peer over Mel's shoulder at the computer screen* Ahem. Yes. Er... my housemate Christy and I breed bettas. Among other fish. The house is being taken over by fish tanks... - Mel the Redcap (who will be bald in less than a week! >_<) --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Fri Mar 4 12:59:09 2005 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 07:59:09 -0500 Subject: Heinlein was Re: [LMB] Book club questions (moving OT:) References: <200503032203.WAA26601@talia3.herald.co.uk> <015e01c52044$b14548e0$69261aac@JaneWork> Message-ID: <42285B9D.CF04B24@erols.com> [various books lists deleted] May I add _Red Planet_? It was the first Heinlein I ever read (age 8?). While it's a juvenile, it is also a great deal of fun for anyone, as well as a serious discussion of the requirements and responsibilities of being an adult. And if you read that, and then something like _SIaSL_, you get an appreciation for the author's range. Of course, I like _The Number of the Beast_, just about the only person besides the late Gharlane to publicly admit to it. Makes me wonder if it was specially designed to appeal to the cranky... --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Fri Mar 4 13:10:32 2005 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 08:10:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: A Younger take on Heinlein References: <20050304075201.87651.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42285E48.C70B840F@erols.com> Anna Blumstein wrote: > The first thing that comes to mind when I think of Heinlein is that is treatment of women sets my teeth on egde. Now I haven't read most of his work so maybe some it better but there are passages where he referrs to women as "creatures" who are far differnt from "us." and other such details. Now the first time I read that it didn't phase me, but today it makes me want to scream. Didn't the man think females might read his work? His wife edited much of his work. She was anything but subservient. > On the same vain he tends to over sexulise women. His female chacters srike me as sex object who can think. People used to complain that SF was written "above the waist". When Heinlein, pretty much as a first in the field, started writing SF with loins, people immediately jumped on him for being sex-crazed. Go figure. > (Do ask questions if you'd like me to elaborate on anything.) Yes. Do you have a spelling checker on your machine? The errors are very distracting to anyone attempting to follow your post. --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Fri Mar 4 13:11:40 2005 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 08:11:40 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: THAT song References: <6.2.1.2.1.20050303233649.02d2ab80@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <42285E8C.3AAF4C63@erols.com> "Marty L. Adkins" wrote: > Terence used to be a magistrate [iow, a former lawyer] in Singapore who got > his start in filk by writing Cthulhu filks to Abba tunes. That is very, very sick. I like it a lot. --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Fri Mar 4 13:45:32 2005 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:45:32 EST Subject: [LMB] OT: An Older take on Heinlein (was a Younger) Message-ID: <15d.4bd7a809.2f59c07c@aol.com> Anna writes: On the same vain he tends to over sexulise women. His female chacters srike me as sex object who can think. M: It was a nice change at the time, since most SF authors' female characters were sex objects who couldn't think, or at least didn't. That's if they had female characters at all, other than brief walk-ons. Heinlein women had careers, written in a time when most women just had jobs or stayed at home. People have compared Heinlein and Asimov as if they were contemporaries, but Heinlein was a midwesterner born in 1907, and most women in his experience were likely to have been housewives, while Asimov was born in Russia in 1920 and grew up from age 3 in NY City, where many women had careers or at least worked outside the home. Also, a lot happened in those 13 years--WW I and the Spanish Flu were among the events that Heinlein experienced and Asimov didn't. They both were published for the first time in the same year, but Asimov was a teenager and Heinlein a man in his thirties. Mary --------________--------________-------- From harimad2001 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 14:56:02 2005 From: harimad2001 at yahoo.com (J Selin) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 06:56:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <200503040754.HAA29786@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> Anna wrote: His female chacters srike me as sex object who can think. Me: Exactly. Even more, they were sex objects who could think, and thought "I'd rather be subservient to men than be an independent person." Some people are like that, but that described *all* of Heinlein's female characters. (Except for the ones in his teenage boys adventure books; those books tend to be populated by young women who were clever and manipulative but always in the cause of "their" boys, although the boys usually hadn't figured out their possessed state yet; not complementary to either sex.) It got worse. The line that caused me to put away Heinlein just about forever is from "I Will Fear No Evil" when the dead woman tells her boss - whose brain was transplanted into her body - that everyone knows that birth control is the woman's job. Even at the young, tender at which I read that it felt like a slap in the face, that Heinlein's women were a grown-up's adolescent fantasy as to what a woman should be: sexy, young, indiscriminate in sexual partners, intelligent, dependent, pliable, willing to do all the dirty work. For me, that about ruined any of the enjoyable writing Heinlein did (Citizen of the Galaxy, Moon is a Harsh Mistress, the Rolling Stones, and the first half of Stranger in a Strange Land in particular). Harimad __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --------________--------________-------- From iosef at gothic.net.au Fri Mar 4 15:22:57 2005 From: iosef at gothic.net.au (I) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 02:22:57 +1100 Subject: [LMB] OT: THAT song In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.1.20050303233649.02d2ab80@pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.1.20050303233649.02d2ab80@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050305022026.01dcff38@localhost> At 03:38 PM 4/03/2005, Marty L. Adkins wrote: >Tom Vinson introduces the innocent list to Terence Chua's "Banned From >Arkham." > >Terence used to be a magistrate [iow, a former lawyer] in Singapore who >got his start in filk by writing Cthulhu filks to Abba tunes. He is now >pursuing a graduate degree at the University of Georgia. When y'all come >to GaFilk, he's another of the talented [and twisted] folks you'll be able >to hear. [note: this has been a subtle hint. ;)] I remember Terrence from Aussiecon 3, when he kept up his turn at the circle, played guitar for about half the songs, and wrote a filk ttto "In the Navy" about the TV show "The Prisoner", all at the same time. Talented man. Iestyn --------________--------________-------- From johnamdarnell at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 15:38:38 2005 From: johnamdarnell at gmail.com (John A.M. Darnell) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:38:38 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: A Younger take on Heinlein In-Reply-To: <20050304075201.87651.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> References: <14ae01c5201d$99ee7850$0100a8c0@heaviside> <20050304075201.87651.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3fd6b3e60503040738dd88779@mail.gmail.com> Hi Anna: On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:52:01 -0800 (PST), Anna Blumstein wrote: > > The first thing that comes to mind when I think of Heinlein is that is treatment of women sets my teeth on egde. Now I haven't read most of his work so maybe some it better but there are passages where he referrs to women as "creatures" who are far differnt from "us." and other such details. Now the first time I read that it didn't phase me, but today it makes me want to scream. Didn't the man think females might read his work? > > On the same vain he tends to over sexulise women. His female chacters srike me as sex object who can think. I'm thirty years older than you, and probably somewhat old-fashioned, nevertheless, I learned in ninth grade (while studying the works of Shakespeare) that sex sells, and sex is timeless. A thousand years from now (assuming we haven't removed sex from our persons) men and women will understand the sex jokes even if they don't understand the rest of the book. WRT his characterization of women as "creatures" who are far different from "us," he usually did that when writing in the first person, and his actor was a male. Now, don't get me wrong, but most men really, really do consider women to be an alien species, and I understand (though I cannot say for sure) that many women believe the same about men. I personally consider the differences (and they are many, though potential is not one of them) to be worth perserving/cherishing. And I find that books that celebrate those differences are usually far more entertaining than those who make men and women to be cut from the same cloth. One of the strengths of Cordelia (as observed by none other than Aral) is that she is fully a woman, with womanly traits, but still every bit the hard-driving professional that he admires in good officers. I strongly encourage you to write stories in which women are the heroes (dare I say heroines?), but they (the stories) will go further and be more convincing if their female leads are also sensitive, feminine, and womanly, as well as heroic. Use Ista and Cordelia as role models, with an appearance or two by Mistress Hysopi and Droushnakova. They are good examples. Take care. John --------________--------________-------- From johnamdarnell at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 15:51:06 2005 From: johnamdarnell at gmail.com (John A.M. Darnell) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:51:06 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200503040754.HAA29786@talia3.herald.co.uk> <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3fd6b3e6050304075123be9f04@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 06:56:02 -0800 (PST), J Selin wrote: > Anna wrote: > His female chacters srike me as sex object who can think. > > Me: > Exactly. Even more, they were sex objects who could think, and > thought "I'd rather be subservient to men than be an independent > person." I would have to take issue with you on this. John Thomas' girlfriend in THE STAR BEAST was not subservient, and neither was the lead female in STARMAN JONES. Margaret Johnson (hope the name is right--Lazarus Long's mom) in TO SAIL BEYOND THE SUNSET was anything but subservient. Perhaps she wasn't Xena the Warrior Princess, but she fought and won plenty of battles, though she fought on her terms. Gotta get back to work... John --------________--------________-------- From scott.r.padget at boeing.com Fri Mar 4 15:56:09 2005 From: scott.r.padget at boeing.com (Padget, Scott R) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:56:09 -0600 Subject: [LMB] The Mother, Ista, and ex-sainthood Message-ID: <62F80D7D3ED3234B907FF0004C56CB890190429B@xch-se-20.se.nos.b oeing.com> Little Egret corrects me: > The texev is against you on this point. At least two out of the three > "ordinary" saints could see the curse (don't think we were told about Clara > the midwife). It seems I misremembered. That's what I get for posting without the books handy. Pilot Padget--whose neural circuitry clearly does NOT include a memory chip --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Mar 4 16:09:03 2005 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:09:03 -0800 Subject: [LMB] RE: Brust OT:, was ConDFW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050304160903.GA25056@ofb.net> On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 09:04:51AM +0000, Jessy Brody wrote: > The one book I've read by Brust is Agyar. At least, I think it's by > Brust and I think that's what it's called but I guess the filter > thinks 'brust' looks too much like 'breast' so I can't google it. Dear god. What a crappy filter. > my curiosity). This guy just keeps popping up. Obviously I need to > give him another chance. Though judging by what other ppl have been > saying, most ppl like some of his stuff but not all of his stuff. The rabid fans haven't been speaking up yet. :) Cherryh is the one where you really get diverging opinions. I think liking most of Brust is more common, with lower frequencies of liking Cowboy Feng, To Reign in Hell, and _The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_. Paarfi will lose some people, too. But I don't think you get people loving the Paarfi novels and hating the Vlad novels. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Mar 4 16:28:55 2005 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:28:55 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: A Younger take on Heinlein In-Reply-To: <3fd6b3e60503040738dd88779@mail.gmail.com> References: <14ae01c5201d$99ee7850$0100a8c0@heaviside> <20050304075201.87651.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> <3fd6b3e60503040738dd88779@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050304162855.GB25056@ofb.net> On Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 09:38:38AM -0600, John A.M. Darnell wrote: > > On the same vain he tends to over sexulise women. His female chacters > > srike me as sex object who can think. > I'm thirty years older than you, and probably somewhat old-fashioned, > nevertheless, I learned in ninth grade (while studying the works of > Shakespeare) that sex sells, and sex is timeless. A thousand years Yes, which is why porn and romance novels completely outsell SF. OTOH, if you put sex in your novels, badly, to sell, you risk people, especially of the other sex, criticizing your novels for having bad sex in them. > WRT his characterization of women as "creatures" who are far different > from "us," he usually did that when writing in the first person, and > his actor was a male. Now, don't get me wrong, but most men really, > really do consider women to be an alien species, and I understand As a straight though highly intellectual male, I would like to cast a dissenting vote, at least for myself. What with most of my friends being female I can't say what most men really think. > men. I personally consider the differences (and they are many, though > potential is not one of them) to be worth perserving/cherishing. And Heinlein's women don't get criticized for being different, I thought, but for being unrealistic, in a selfishly idealized way. > One of the strengths of Cordelia (as observed by none other than Aral) > is that she is fully a woman, with womanly traits, but still every bit > the hard-driving professional that he admires in good officers. > > and be more convincing if their female leads are also sensitive, > feminine, and womanly, as well as heroic. I'm going to predict that "fully a woman.. but still professional" and "feminine... as well as heroic" get long responses from certain listies. Short response: Contemplate "and be more convincing if their male leads are also strong, masculine, and manly, as well as heroic." -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From azurite at rogers.com Fri Mar 4 16:29:52 2005 From: azurite at rogers.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:29:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <3fd6b3e6050304075123be9f04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050304162952.18939.qmail@web88107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > Anna wrote: > > His female chacters srike me as sex object who can > think. > > --- "John A.M. Darnell" wrote: > Exactly. Even more, they were sex objects who > could think, and thought "I'd rather be subservient > to men than be an independent person." My reaction was always that Heinlein did the best he could by women - that he wasn't sexist. He was just really, really bad at portraying well-written and convincing women. I liked his stance that "sex as a good thing". I thought he hadn't much a clue about showing a women's point of view in the matter, but the problem was artistic, not political. namaste, Elizabeth --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Mar 4 16:42:25 2005 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:42:25 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: A Younger take on Heinlein In-Reply-To: <42285E48.C70B840F@erols.com> References: <20050304075201.87651.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> <42285E48.C70B840F@erols.com> Message-ID: <20050304164225.GC25056@ofb.net> On Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 08:10:32AM -0500, Alexandra Haropulos wrote: > > (Do ask questions if you'd like me to elaborate on anything.) > > Yes. Do you have a spelling checker on your machine? The > errors are very distracting to anyone attempting to follow > your post. Agreed, but after turning Greece into Grease she blamed dyslexia and a spellchecker. I'd vote for proofreading before sending, but I don't know how much that helps dyslexics. Anna's content is good. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Fri Mar 4 16:47:53 2005 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:47:53 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: References: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42289139.52EF8FD@erols.com> J Selin wrote: > Exactly. Even more, they were sex objects who could think, and > thought "I'd rather be subservient to men than be an independent > person." Some people are like that, but that described *all* of > Heinlein's female characters. Well, that assertion is easy to disprove. Hilda in _The Number of the Beast_ kicks the men's b*tts around. And they are all macho men, while she is a tiny wee thing. > It got worse. The line that caused me to put away Heinlein just > about forever is from "I Will Fear No Evil" when the dead woman tells > her boss - whose brain was transplanted into her body - that everyone > knows that birth control is the woman's job. S/he who has the most to lose is usually wise to take care of any standing issue that arises (so to speak). He's not saying men shouldn't help - he's saying that, as a general class, they cannot be reliably trusted to help. > Heinlein's women were a grown-up's adolescent fantasy > as to what a woman should be: sexy, young, indiscriminate in sexual > partners, intelligent, dependent, pliable, willing to do all the > dirty work. There is some truth to that, but only some. Heinlein firmly believed that men had the responsibility to do the ultimate dirty work: fight and die if need be for their families, homes and nations. Note, also, that he does not disallow women in that role. Also, his women only ACT as if they are dependent - just about every one winds up running whatever she chooses or needs to run. The best example of this is Maureen in _TSBtS_, when she goes from being a full-time wife to being a corporate magnate. I think Heinlein felt that women had a sweet deal as dependents and knew it, and, as the only sex that can reproduce itself, deserves to take advantage of it whenever possible. (Personally, I put it "Woman is a tool-using animal.") Heinlein seems to be one of those authors that some people have a visceral objection to. It happens. --------________--------________-------- From louann at millerdome.com Fri Mar 4 16:56:26 2005 From: louann at millerdome.com (Louann Miller) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:56:26 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <20050304162952.18939.qmail@web88107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <3fd6b3e6050304075123be9f04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050304105254.017e6a08@mail07.powweb.com> At 11:29 AM 3/4/2005 -0500, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > --- "John A.M. Darnell" >wrote: > > Exactly. Even more, they were sex objects who > > could think, and thought "I'd rather be subservient > > to men than be an independent person." > >My reaction was always that Heinlein did the best he >could by women - that he wasn't sexist. He was just >really, really bad at portraying well-written and >convincing women. Compare him to Count Piotr -- the society changed so much that even though he'd been a trailblazer in that same direction, in the end he couldn't keep up. Louann --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Fri Mar 4 17:03:47 2005 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:03:47 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Bull (was re Brust) OT: In-Reply-To: <166601c52062$aa702fd0$0100a8c0@heaviside> References: <20050303152818.98287.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> <166601c52062$aa702fd0$0100a8c0@heaviside> Message-ID: <20050304170347.GC16318@fireopal.org> On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 09:34:17PM -0500, Paula Lieberman wrote: > Last I was aware of the pair of them were in LA and had gotten > involved in the film industry, writing screenplays or some > such--which generally pays a LOT better than writing novels. They're currently living in Bisbee, AZ. Check out http://www.geocities.com/qwertyranch/. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From celticdragonfly at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 17:06:35 2005 From: celticdragonfly at gmail.com (Laura Gallagher) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:06:35 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <20050304162952.18939.qmail@web88107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <3fd6b3e6050304075123be9f04@mail.gmail.com> <20050304162952.18939.qmail@web88107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <209a74ed05030409066d49c0fe@mail.gmail.com> Various people wrote various negative things about Heinlein and women Elizabeth then wrote: > My reaction was always that Heinlein did the best he > could by women - that he wasn't sexist. He was just > really, really bad at portraying well-written and > convincing women. Okay, this is going to get me jumped on - I'm a woman, and I like reading Heinlein's women. Most of them, anyway - there's a few that I'll find myself having arguments with, or rather at. But I've found many of his women to be quite convincing. I certainly can't think of another author from that early that wrote women I find that convincing. I'd go wander off for a Heinlein re-read - I re-read a lot of his, including some of the books being very negatively spoken of - except I'm on a new-book-kick, and actually have a few lined up. Most distinctively a woman, convincing at least to those who know me personally, Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Fri Mar 4 17:41:48 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:41:48 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: References: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <180f01c520e1$7150fa70$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Selin" > It got worse. The line that caused me to put away Heinlein just > about forever is from "I Will Fear No Evil" when the dead woman tells > her boss - whose brain was transplanted into her body - that everyone > knows that birth control is the woman's job. I stopped reading that book halfway through. My opinion regarding it is, "horrendous offensive turkey, stay away from it!" > Even at the young, tender at which I read that it felt like a slap in How old were you? I was a junior or senior in high school. It was the only Heinlein book to that date that I stopped reading. > the face, that Heinlein's women were a grown-up's adolescent fantasy > as to what a woman should be: sexy, young, indiscriminate in sexual > partners, intelligent, dependent, pliable, willing to do all the > dirty work. For me, that about ruined any of the enjoyable writing > Heinlein did (Citizen of the Galaxy, Moon is a Harsh Mistress, the > Rolling Stones, and the first half of Stranger in a Strange Land in > particular). I stopped reading Saberhagen's work after a book serialized in Galaxy in the early 1970s that read something like an anti-*b*rt**n tract. And thinking back to the work I'd read by him after reading that book, all the female characters felt essentially as either goody-goody-two-shoes-perfect-helpmates or evil b*tch*s some of whom could be redeemed through humbling and Love. Ugh..... I didn't particularly notice when I was in high school, but that last book shoved it in my face and caused me to thing about the earlier books I'd read by Saberhagen, and write his work mostly off for future consideration. There is a lot of fantasy and science fiction out there.... Heinlein did later say that he wrote I Will Fear No Evil when he was very sick and he wasn't in any shape to write/do revisions on it to make it into a book he considered appropriate for publication. But he had been under an obligation to write a book and deliver it to the publisher. By the time that I got to I Will Fear No Evil I had read quite a number of books by Heinlein, which I Will Fear No Evil was quite different from--I didn;'t finish it, and dismissed it as something to consider for future reading or rereading, but it didn't affect the earlier work for me--plus, this was also before e.g. the novel _When It Changed_ and the feminist SF revolution getting rolling. Heinlein at least had -had- female characters who were more than trophies to hand out or evil monsters to pull down who had gotten out of purdah where they belonged... The books of the 1960s, good luck finding a major character who was an intelligent decent life form who was an Earth human! --------________--------________-------- From mtraber251 at earthlink.net Fri Mar 4 18:01:10 2005 From: mtraber251 at earthlink.net (M. Traber) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 13:01:10 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Bujold book online - this legit or pirated? In-Reply-To: <3b8ab98e05030321286df0a00c@mail.gmail.com> References: <209a74ed05030308353ca77bfc@mail.gmail.com> <3b8ab98e05030321286df0a00c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4228A266.7080101@earthlink.net> James wrote: > I have the hardcopy books, but I tend to read it via an electronic > copy since it's a bit more convenient to carry the entire series in a > tiny package than a whole shelf of books. I prefer ebooks now myself...but either I buy them from Baen's Webscriptions or one of a couple other esale websites [once from a very overpriced amazon.com=(] or I will take one of my almost dead paperbacks and scan/ocr/proofedit it myself, which kills the book, so I still only have one paid for copy. I would love to see it where every book gets an epublishing for those who dont want the treeware version. -- -- For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling --------________--------________-------- From lioness at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 4 17:58:49 2005 From: lioness at bellsouth.net (Debbie) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:58:49 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: A Younger take on Heinlein In-Reply-To: <20050304075201.87651.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> References: <14ae01c5201d$99ee7850$0100a8c0@heaviside> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050304110438.02e51740@mail.bellsouth.net> >The first thing that comes to mind when I think of Heinlein is that is >treatment of women sets my teeth on egde. Didn't the man think >females might read his work? > >Anna I'm 38 and I have the same problem. My dh finds it even more offensive than I do, and gave up on science fiction at a young age. I was just commenting on another list that the only Walt Disney (the man, not the company) works I can enjoy are the anthropomorphic ones, where the misogyny can be glossed over as something lost in the inter-species translation. Debbie http://www.brigidsforge.com Original sterling Gothic and Pagan jewelry "He hasn't been the same since his spirit guide discovered object-oriented programming." --------________--------________-------- From lioness at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 4 18:06:01 2005 From: lioness at bellsouth.net (Debbie) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 12:06:01 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: A Younger take on Heinlein In-Reply-To: <20050304162855.GB25056@ofb.net> References: <3fd6b3e60503040738dd88779@mail.gmail.com> <14ae01c5201d$99ee7850$0100a8c0@heaviside> <20050304075201.87651.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> <3fd6b3e60503040738dd88779@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050304120307.02e4fdd8@mail.bellsouth.net> >Short response: Contemplate "and be more convincing if their male leads >are also strong, masculine, and manly, as well as heroic." > >-xx- Damien X-) Ashakita in Princess Monoke? Debbie http://www.brigidsforge.com Original sterling Gothic and Pagan jewelry "He hasn't been the same since his spirit guide discovered object-oriented programming." --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Fri Mar 4 18:17:08 2005 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:17:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Heinlein was Re: [LMB] Book club questions (moving OT:) In-Reply-To: <42285B9D.CF04B24@erols.com> References: <200503032203.WAA26601@talia3.herald.co.uk> <015e01c52044$b14548e0$69261aac@JaneWork> <42285B9D.CF04B24@erols.com> Message-ID: <20050304101532.R98332@shell.rawbw.com> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Alexandra Haropulos wrote: > [various books lists deleted] > > May I add _Red Planet_? It was the first Heinlein I ever > read (age 8?). While it's a juvenile, it is also a great > deal of fun for anyone, as well as a serious discussion of > the requirements and responsibilities of being an adult. I read that one in third grade, too, and will second this rec. > Of course, I like _The Number of the Beast_, just about the > only person besides the late Gharlane to publicly admit to > it. Makes me wonder if it was specially designed to appeal > to the cranky... I liked it, I just don't like it as much as I liked SiaSL or Time Enough for Love. But it was a lot of fun. I like all the late Heinleins that nobody supposedly likes. I don't particularly agree with some of his worldview, but they're fun. ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Fri Mar 4 18:18:27 2005 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:18:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] OT: THAT song In-Reply-To: <42285E8C.3AAF4C63@erols.com> References: <6.2.1.2.1.20050303233649.02d2ab80@pop.mindspring.com> <42285E8C.3AAF4C63@erols.com> Message-ID: <20050304101741.E98332@shell.rawbw.com> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Alexandra Haropulos wrote: > "Marty L. Adkins" wrote: > > > Terence used to be a magistrate [iow, a former lawyer] in > > Singapore who got his start in filk by writing Cthulhu filks > > to Abba tunes. > > That is very, very sick. I like it a lot. And he is SO cute. Every time I see him I want to pack him in my suitcase and take him home with me. My suitcase bears the sobriquet of "Dudley". He'd fit. ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Fri Mar 4 18:22:00 2005 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:22:00 EST Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: Message-ID: <42.644c7e29.2f5a0148@aol.com> J Selin writes: > It got worse. The line that caused me to put away Heinlein just > about forever is from "I Will Fear No Evil" when the dead woman tells > her boss - whose brain was transplanted into her body - that everyone > knows that birth control is the woman's job. M: Remember that this was written in 1970 before DNA testing was common, and therefore nailing down paternity for purposes of child support was often rather difficult, especially since casual s*x had become _quite_ common. The pill was available, however, and any woman who was into casual s*x and depending on her partner to use birth control often literally was left holding the baby. As I recall the late 60s and early 70s, there were plenty of young women who had no idea who the father of their child was. Birth control might not have been women's responsibility in an ideal world, but since they would have to live with and support the result, it seems that even a modest amount of common sense would make it so. BTW, guess whose name was mentioned in the Kikkoman newsletter? They didn't give your recipe, though. Mary --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Fri Mar 4 18:25:35 2005 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:25:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050304102108.V98332@shell.rawbw.com> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, J Selin wrote: > It got worse. The line that caused me to put away Heinlein > just about forever is from "I Will Fear No Evil" when the dead > woman tells her boss - whose brain was transplanted into her > body - that everyone knows that birth control is the woman's > job. I don't know. I sort of have always felt that way myself. Not that men shouldn't be responsible in their behaviour, but ultimately, when I was fertile, that I was the one who was going to end up suffering, one way or another, if I didn't have the final say and do all the preparations I could do myself, so that I knew they were done, and done properly. Then if something went wrong, I could at least comfort myself with the knowledge that I wasn't in a bad situation because someone *else* screwed up. My body, my problems, my responsibility, if you will. That expanded in my 20s to being responsible to make sure he used the proper protection or nothing happened, because of the disease problems which became such a nightmare in the 1980s. Also, if women are going to take upon themselves the right to make decisions about childbearing no matter what a potentially involved male may wish, in my opinion, they should be prepared to shoulder the responsibilities themselves. But that's a whole nother gender war we maybe don't want to start up again. ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Fri Mar 4 18:28:00 2005 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:28:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] OT: A Younger take on Heinlein In-Reply-To: <20050304164225.GC25056@ofb.net> References: <20050304075201.87651.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> <42285E48.C70B840F@erols.com> <20050304164225.GC25056@ofb.net> Message-ID: <20050304102708.J98332@shell.rawbw.com> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Damien Sullivan wrote: > On Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 08:10:32AM -0500, Alexandra Haropulos wrote: > > > > (Do ask questions if you'd like me to elaborate on anything.) > > > > Yes. Do you have a spelling checker on your machine? The > > errors are very distracting to anyone attempting to follow > > your post. > > Agreed, but after turning Greece into Grease she blamed > dyslexia and a spellchecker. I'd vote for proofreading before > sending, but I don't know how much that helps dyslexics. > Anna's content is good. A grammar checker will fix homonym problems in most cases; if you have any kind of a writing style it will, of course, demolish it, which is why I don't recommend them to fic writers, but for posts on an email list it might not be a bad thing. ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Fri Mar 4 18:31:21 2005 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:31:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <42289139.52EF8FD@erols.com> References: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> <42289139.52EF8FD@erols.com> Message-ID: <20050304102839.R98332@shell.rawbw.com> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Alexandra Haropulos wrote: > I think Heinlein felt that women had a sweet deal as dependents > and knew it, and, as the only sex that can reproduce itself, > deserves to take advantage of it whenever possible. > (Personally, I put it "Woman is a tool-using animal.") Well, it depends. If you're a young woman without children and you're being supported, then yes, you have a sweet deal. If you're the stay at home mother of several small children, breeding more Howards whom I do not suspect of being less imaginative at finding ways to nearly kill themselves as normal children are, then you're working just as hard as your man is, possibly harder. Part of the problem with our society is that everyone tends to assume wives who don't work outside the home don't work. Sometimes this is true, but sometimes they are doing volunteer work and often, very often, they are raising children, and the idea that raising children is not work has got our society into a place that at times really scares me. ~malfoy ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From celticdragonfly at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 18:50:23 2005 From: celticdragonfly at gmail.com (Laura Gallagher) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:50:23 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <20050304102839.R98332@shell.rawbw.com> References: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> <42289139.52EF8FD@erols.com> <20050304102839.R98332@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <209a74ed0503041050265028c2@mail.gmail.com> > Part of the problem with our society is that everyone tends to > assume wives who don't work outside the home don't work. > Sometimes this is true, but sometimes they are doing volunteer > work and often, very often, they are raising children, and the > idea that raising children is not work has got our society into a > place that at times really scares me. > > ~malfoy Thank you, thank you so very much. If only it was valued as it is in Athos! Hm, I wonder what Heinlein would have thought about Athos? Pity we can't ask him. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at lunainternet.net Fri Mar 4 18:54:28 2005 From: jbryant at lunainternet.net (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:54:28 +0000 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050304184055.02979d60@pop.lunainternet.net> Are MiniLoisCons OT: or NOT: ? I shall be in Poland next week (Gdansk Sun, Wroclaw late pm on Tues, Warsaw airport 19:00-22:00 Thur, Warsaw overnight Fri - the other places I'll be too busy). Miniloiscon anyone? I'm visiting Doug & Claudia in Bucharest over the weekend after and will be in Kiev on Wed 16th and overnight Fri 18th. Same question? I will also be in Tenerife 15-22 April, Boston 30 April - 8 May, Denver 8-11 May, Orange County 11-14 May, Portland 14-17 May, Victoria 17-19 May and Dayton OH 19-22 May. I'll be quite busy but might have time for something. Any offers? Best wishes - James the peripatetic --------________--------________-------- From harimad2001 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 19:15:31 2005 From: harimad2001 at yahoo.com (J Selin) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:15:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: Message-ID: <20050304191531.23276.qmail@web53702.mail.yahoo.com> Harimad (me) wrote: Exactly. Even more, they were sex objects who could think, and thought "I'd rather be subservient to men than be an independent person." John replied: I would have to take issue with you on this. John Thomas' girlfriend in THE STAR BEAST was not subservient, and neither was the lead female in STARMAN JONES. Margaret Johnson (hope the name is right--Lazarus Long's mom) in TO SAIL BEYOND THE SUNSET was anything but subservient. Perhaps she wasn't Xena the Warrior Princess, but she fought and won plenty of battles, though she fought on her terms. Me again: I had her specifically in mind when I wrote the rest of the paragraph you quoted: "(Except for the ones in his teenage boys adventure books; those books tend to be populated by young women who were clever and manipulative but always in the cause of "their" boys, although the boys usually hadn't figured out their possessed state yet; not complementary to either sex.)" Harimad (me) also wrote: It got worse. The line that caused me to put away Heinlein just about forever is from "I Will Fear No Evil" when the dead woman tells her boss - whose brain was transplanted into her body - that everyone knows that birth control is the woman's job. Alex responded: S/he who has the most to lose is usually wise to take care of any standing issue that arises (so to speak). He's not saying men shouldn't help - he's saying that, as a general class, they cannot be reliably trusted to help. Me again: That's not well supported by the context. Boss (male brain) is talking about men using birth control, dead woman (female body) says, essentially "Silly, everyone knows that's the woman's job." Not "A wise woman protects herself because the consequences bear mostly upon her." Taken in context, and given everything else Heinlein wrote about women, I stand my interpretation. FYI, I stopped reading after "The Number of the Beast" and a bite of "Sail into Sunset." I was sure that the protagonist of NotB was Laz Long in yet another guise; when it wasn't I realized that Heinlein had run out of good stories and credible characters and was just recycling the old ones under new names. Harimad not cranky, although I couldn't figure out how to write my post in a way that doesn't sound cranky __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --------________--------________-------- From harimad2001 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 19:18:52 2005 From: harimad2001 at yahoo.com (J Selin) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:18:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Re Other Authors OT: Message-ID: <20050304191852.24202.qmail@web53702.mail.yahoo.com> Now that I've dumped thoroughly on Heinlein I thought I'd talk about a book I like. "After the King," a collection of short stories written in honor of Tolkein. I found some excellent authors in that books, including Emma Bull, Judith Tarr and Derek De Lint (although I later decided I like De Lint's short stories but not novels) Harimad __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --------________--------________-------- From ddj.samson at att.net Fri Mar 4 19:42:43 2005 From: ddj.samson at att.net (ddj.samson at att.net) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 19:42:43 +0000 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James Message-ID: <030420051942.3056.4228BA33000216CB00000BF0216037602102019C0 30E9CD2060B0B@att.net> Which Portland? Oregon or Maine? Thanks David -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "James M. BRYANT, G4CLF" > Are MiniLoisCons OT: or NOT: ? > > I shall be in Poland next week > (Gdansk Sun, Wroclaw late pm on > Tues, Warsaw airport 19:00-22:00 > Thur, Warsaw overnight Fri - the > other places I'll be too busy). > Miniloiscon anyone? > > I'm visiting Doug & Claudia in > Bucharest over the weekend after > and will be in Kiev on Wed 16th > and overnight Fri 18th. Same > question? > > I will also be in Tenerife 15-22 > April, Boston 30 April - 8 May, > Denver 8-11 May, Orange County > 11-14 May, Portland 14-17 May, > Victoria 17-19 May and Dayton OH > 19-22 May. I'll be quite busy > but might have time for something. > > Any offers? > > Best wishes - James the peripatetic > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Fri Mar 4 20:11:23 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:11:23 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: References: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> <42289139.52EF8FD@erols.com> Message-ID: <189f01c520f6$5710f560$0100a8c0@heaviside> Heinlein came from a culture that severely restricted women's lives and liberty--there were actual laws on the books limiting the number of hours that women could work, to something that was used as justification for both "women are unable to work long hours because they are Delicate creatures" and "because the law says women can't work more than X hours we don't hire women to any Exempt positions like manager and professional because Exempt employees might have to work longer hours in a day than we need our Exempt employees to work." ["Exempt" meant "exempt from paying overtime for more than 40 hours per week/exempt from complying with union rules about work hours/exempt from labor rules about mazimum number of hours per day and work week that a company can require someone to work"] Women had to sue in court in some states to keep using their maiden name even professionally--the late Prof. Vera Kistiakowsky" had to do that when she got married, her lawsuit said that she had a professional reputation and many publications as "Vera Kistiakowsky" and that it would be extremely professionally injurious to her career to her to have to use her huband's last name instead of "Kistiakowsky" which all her professional credentials and publications which under and by which she was known in her professional and had her entire professional reputation as. Using her husband's name would strip her of her professional achievements/identification of Vera "Kistiakowsky"'s professional reputation and achievements as hers, and of all recognition within her field. Women were banned from flying airliners, from flying military planes -- Heinlein was -very- forward for his time having female pilots in Starship Troopers, it was completely illegal in the USA for the military to have female pilots at the time--and from all sorts of other professions. There were hardly any women in national elected offices in the USA, women were banned from a lot of technically-oriented schools like Caltech and Worcester Polytechnic Institute, MIT limited its admissions to women severely, and "I am not going to hire any women to be anything except clerical support positions!' was probably the majority view. Heinlein was far more friendly to women regarding their place in society that his contemporaries and even the generation after him, but far short of what a plurality of the public views as reasonable today. [There are a lot of people trying to set society back to the past, kick women out of cockpits, out of positions as MDs back into nursing and women shouldn't be doctors, that's for men, etc. There are a lot of people who think that Summers' comments about women are probably much too feminist-oriented... note in Lois' work Barrayar pre-Cordelia, as having a lot of the attitudes that say 1950s and pre-mid-1960s USA had, regarding men and woman and social/business roles.... except Barrayar had a lot higher percentage of women in professorships, I think. ] --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Fri Mar 4 20:21:15 2005 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:21:15 EST Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: Message-ID: <1df.36bd6ab6.2f5a1d3b@aol.com> J Selin writes: It got worse. The line that caused me to put away Heinlein just about forever is from "I Will Fear No Evil" when the dead woman tells her boss - whose brain was transplanted into her body - that everyone knows that birth control is the woman's job. M: Some further thoughts on that subject--as Cordelia told Drou in Barrayar, the purpose of controlling conception is to make sure that every child conceived is wanted and provided for. Beta does this by controlling reproductive ability (compulsory contraceptive implants) and Barrayar by controlling the whole woman (social ostracism of unmarried pregnant women and illegitimate children). If nobody's controlling the whole woman, and there are no compulsory contraceptive implants, the owner of that uterus has to be the one with the ultimate responsibility for keeping it empty unless she wishes otherwise and has the ability to provide for the child. After all, would you want to give someone else that much control over your body and your life? It's odd--when the pill came on the market, feminists were cheering it because it gave women control over contraception, as opposed to the c*ndom. Now, because someone male (Heinlein) dared to suggest that along with control comes responsibility, attitudes have changed. Mary --------________--------________-------- From lioness at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 4 20:33:05 2005 From: lioness at bellsouth.net (Debbie) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:33:05 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <1df.36bd6ab6.2f5a1d3b@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050304142839.02e8fd90@mail.bellsouth.net> >J Selin writes: > >It got worse. The line that caused me to put away Heinlein just >about forever is from "I Will Fear No Evil" when the dead woman tells her >boss - whose brain was transplanted into her body - that everyone knows >that birth control is the woman's job. In Heinlein "job" = "responsibility". Not a bad attitude to take. If it's yours, you are responsible for it. That goes for your car, your dog and your uterus. I think Heinlein could have worded it a *lot* better, but I don't object to that observation. Debbie http://www.brigidsforge.com Original sterling Gothic and Pagan jewelry "He hasn't been the same since his spirit guide discovered object-oriented programming." --------________--------________-------- From mtraber251 at earthlink.net Fri Mar 4 21:46:28 2005 From: mtraber251 at earthlink.net (M. Traber) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:46:28 -0500 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050304184055.02979d60@pop.lunainternet.net> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050304184055.02979d60@pop.lunainternet.net> Message-ID: <4228D734.9040909@earthlink.net> James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: > I will also be in Tenerife 15-22 > April, Boston 30 April - 8 May, > > Any offers? > > Best wishes - James the peripatetic OOoOo, ginnilee and I are almost with in spitting distance of boston...maybe some carpool-fu might be in order, depending on finances=) will try to start sneaking sheckels away=) There is a killer place to eat - fast sloppy service but big portions and an indian pudding to kill for=) I can never remember the name of the blasted place, but it is right in Faneiul Hall...however you spell *that* also=\ -- -- For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling --------________--------________-------- From brashley46 at tfnet.ca Fri Mar 4 21:48:13 2005 From: brashley46 at tfnet.ca (B. Ross Ashley) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:48:13 -0500 Subject: Heinlein was Re: [LMB] Book club questions (moving OT: Message-ID: <4228D79D.5050801@tfnet.ca> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 07:59:09 -0500, Alexandra Haropulos wrote: > May I add _Red Planet_? It was the first Heinlein I > ever read (age 8?). While it's a juvenile, it is also > a great deal of fun for anyone, as well as a serious > discussion of the requirements and responsibilities of > being an adult. And if you read that, and then something > like _SIaSL_, you get an appreciation for the author's range. _Tunnel in the Sky_ is that sort of read, too, especially if you consider that these marooned kids are, some of them, parents by the end of the adventure. Quite grownup for a juvenile. > Of course, I like _The Number of the Beast_, just about the > only person besides the late Gharlane to publicly admit to > it. Makes me wonder if it was specially designed to appeal > to the cranky... Hee! ::waves hand:: I loved it too ... especially the part wherein the crew have to run from Kim Kinnison, on account of technically they're *zwilnicks*. That cries out to be filked to Arlo Guthrie's "Comin' into Los Angeles", doesn't it? And darnit, anybody who thinks RAH could only write weak, dependent, sexist portrayals of women never ran across Hazel Stone. It's just too bad he didn't write her more often. -- B. Ross Ashley www.livejournal.com/users/brashley46/ http://brashley46.no-ip.info "You cannot conquer evil, Nukurren. Evil is not a thing from beyond, a foe to be vanquished. It is a thing which emerges from within the life of a people. It can only be changed, by changing that life." - Eric Flint, in "Mother of Demons" --------________--------________-------- From ccfinlay at earthlink.net Fri Mar 4 21:49:52 2005 From: ccfinlay at earthlink.net (Charles Coleman Finlay) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:49:52 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <200503042139.VAA02975@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: > Part of the problem with our society is that everyone tends to > assume wives who don't work outside the home don't work. > Sometimes this is true, but sometimes they are doing volunteer > work and often, very often, they are raising children, and the > idea that raising children is not work has got our society into a > place that at times really scares me. > > ~malfoy It's not just wives. I was a stayhome dad with my two small kids for years and even though I was exhausted at the end of every day, it was assumed by many people I met that I was freeloading and not working at all. There was also a curious kind of bias from other mothers: I'd be on the playground with my kids every day with the same group of other parents, but I'd still get comments like "There's a brave dad, giving mom a day off" and "Be glad you aren't us and have to do it everyday." I remember getting that four times one day from complete strangers when I had my 2 and a half year old and my infant at the zoo -- it was very irritating, even though I think all of them meant it to be cheerful or friendly. Charlie --------________--------________-------- From harimad2001 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 4 22:02:11 2005 From: harimad2001 at yahoo.com (J Selin) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:02:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] re: Heinlein OT: Message-ID: <20050304220212.79303.qmail@web53702.mail.yahoo.com> I agree with those who are saying that since women bear the brunt of pregnancy, and find it harder to deny parentity and thus walk away guiltless, then prudent women use birth control and don't depend on their partners to do so. But what I took from Heinlein's statement is that men are *absolved* of the responsibility as opposed to being able to *avoid* the responsibility. There's a big difference between not having any responsibility, and having it but not meeting it. Harimad busily searching Kikkoman's (very slow) site hey look!: http://makeashorterlink.com/?D3B712B9A __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Fri Mar 4 22:07:47 2005 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:07:47 EST Subject: [LMB] Re Other Authors OT: Message-ID: J Selin writes: I found some excellent authors in that books, including Emma Bull, Judith Tarr and Derek De Lint (although I later decided I like De Lint's short stories but not novels) M: Who is Derek De Lint? Any relation to Charles? Mary --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at lunainternet.net Fri Mar 4 22:52:21 2005 From: jbryant at lunainternet.net (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 22:52:21 +0000 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James In-Reply-To: <200503042139.VAA02983@talia3.herald.co.uk> References: <200503042139.VAA02983@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050304224639.02009a50@pop.lunainternet.net> I said that I'd be in:- JB> Orange County 11-14 May, JB> Portland 14-17 May, JB> Victoria 17-19 May And David Samson enquired:- DS> Which Portland? Oregon or Maine? Look where I am before and after and guess.... James - who tries not to zig and zag too much as he wanders up the West Coast --------________--------________-------- From agent010 at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 23:11:46 2005 From: agent010 at gmail.com (Peter Panov) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:11:46 -0500 Subject: [LMB] GMail invites In-Reply-To: <3b8ab98e05030121231fcdabfa@mail.gmail.com> References: <62.4fb0f731.2f54a942@aol.com> <3fd6b3e605030111392b1b56dc@mail.gmail.com> <3b8ab98e05030121231fcdabfa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: teh. I remember when it was a flat six. Then it suddenly bumped to 50! On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:23:54 -0800, James wrote: > Heh. I must be one of the few late comers - I've had gmail forever, > and I can't find anyone to give it to! (Apparently, I now have 50 > invites...) > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Peter S Panov Somewhere "Only one human captain has ever survived battle with the Minbari Fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else." -- "Ambassador" Delenn, "Severed Dreams," Babylon 5 2260 CE "Christ told us to love each other and for the past 2000 years we've been killing each other over how he said it. When you become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy" -- Max Eilerson, starship Excalibur, 2267 CE --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Fri Mar 4 23:17:19 2005 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:17:19 -0600 Subject: [LMB] (news) Scifi Wire interview Message-ID: <4228EC7F.7070907@myinfmail.com> This interview is now up... http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire2005/index.php?id=30464 There are two more with other nominees, which you can access by going back to the "Print" (meaning, news about print media) page. Ta, L. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.6 - Release Date: 3/1/2005 --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Fri Mar 4 23:36:43 2005 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:36:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] re: Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <20050304220212.79303.qmail@web53702.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050304220212.79303.qmail@web53702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050304152204.V52042@shell.rawbw.com> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, J Selin wrote: > I agree with those who are saying that since women bear the brunt of > pregnancy, and find it harder to deny parentity and thus walk away > guiltless, then prudent women use birth control and don't depend on > their partners to do so. Actually in California, you can leave a baby at a fire station or hospital and walk away and under our law, they won't go looking for you. The thing is, I'm not really sure what good it does children to know that they have parents who don't want them, even if it does improve their material status somewhat. I don't think it is a responsible thing to do to have and keep a baby if you don't have a support system that will enable you to take care of it properly. An unwitting or careless or whatever-you-want-to-call-him sperm donor does NOT in my opinion constitute such a support system. One of the main ideas behind ab*rtion reform was that consent to sex did not have to be consent to parenthood. Yet let a woman get pregnant, and if the man who sired the fetus but has no relationship with the woman beyond a one night stand doesn't want to 'be responsible' he's regarded as the worst kind of jerk. There's something about this picture that just doesn't seem right to me. Believe me, nobody's more aware than I am that pregnancy can be life-threatening, and that no one should be forced to have a life-threatening experience against hir will, but if your body means it's your choice then it's your responsibility to deal with the results of that choice, and I rather think that other people should have about as much responsibility for your decisions as they had input into them. Either intercourse morally equals consent to parenthood, or it doesn't; I don't mind if people want to say that men *should* support children they sire whether or not they intended to sire children, but please, if you're pro-choice and female, don't use the same exact "if you don't want a kid, don't have intercourse" argument that the anti-choice side is using with regard to *your* rights. ~malfoy :) ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From Lathia at nwlink.com Fri Mar 4 23:54:42 2005 From: Lathia at nwlink.com (Lathia) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:54:42 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: A Younger take on Heinlein References: <3fd6b3e60503040738dd88779@mail.gmail.com> <14ae01c5201d$99ee7850$0100a8c0@heaviside> <20050304075201.87651.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> <3fd6b3e60503040738dd88779@mail.gmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050304120307.02e4fdd8@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <00f801c52115$891c24c0$0200a8c0@sc> >Short response: Contemplate "and be more convincing if their male leads >are also strong, masculine, and manly, as well as heroic." > That is almost exactly what I feel about some of Cherryh's main characters. yes I've read her defense on why she makes her characters how they are, I just think she takes it too far sometimes. Susan in Bellevue. --------________--------________-------- From dreitman at mail.spiritone.com Sat Mar 5 01:59:02 2005 From: dreitman at mail.spiritone.com (Daniel R. Reitman) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:59:02 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Re:[ LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James In-Reply-To: <200503042139.VAA02979@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <200503050158.j251wPL2014174@jade.spiritone.com> "James M. BRYANT, G4CLF" wrote: > Are MiniLoisCons OT: or NOT: ? Almost by definition on. >. . . . > I will also be in Tenerife 15-22 > April, Boston 30 April - 8 May, > Denver 8-11 May, Orange County > 11-14 May, Portland 14-17 May, > Victoria 17-19 May and Dayton OH > 19-22 May. I'll be quite busy > but might have time for something. >. . . . Hmm. That means that you'll miss the Portland SF Society meeting on May 14, as you'd most likely be in transit to Victoria. Otherwise, we'll have to come up with something. Dan, ad nauseam --------________--------________-------- From joasia at fandom.art.pl Fri Mar 4 23:36:24 2005 From: joasia at fandom.art.pl (Jo'Asia) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:36:24 +0100 Subject: [LMB] "Paladin of Souls" - Polish edition (may be...) Message-ID: <776965420.20050305003624@galaxy.uci.agh.edu.pl> Look here: It's not an *official* announcement, but I'm trying to learn more. As soon as I now something I'll post it here. As for now - the blurb is accurate and does not reveal too much and I rather like the cover (I'd prefer the orignal one, which is great, but this one is nice). Hope to have a better picture of the cover soon. Jo'Asia -- __.-=-. -< Joanna Slupek >----------------------< http://esensja.pl/ >- --<()> -< joasia at hell . pl >------< http://bujold.fantastyka.net/ >- .__.'| -< What kind of sicko would space a *teddy bear*? {Space Cases} >- --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Sat Mar 5 02:40:08 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:40:08 -0500 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050304184055.02979d60@pop.lunainternet.net> <4228D734.9040909@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <005901c5212c$a6091d60$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "M. Traber" > James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: > > > I will also be in Tenerife 15-22 > > April, Boston 30 April - 8 May, > > > > Any offers? > > > > Best wishes - James the peripatetic > > OOoOo, ginnilee and I are almost with in spitting distance of > boston...maybe some carpool-fu might be in order, depending on > finances=) will try to start sneaking sheckels away=) > > There is a killer place to eat - fast sloppy service but big > portions and an indian pudding to kill for=) I can never remember > the name of the blasted place, but it is right in Faneiul > Hall...however you spell *that* also=\ Do you mean Durgin-Park, which apparently according to on-line reviews, changed out its iron constitution ageless Surly Waitresses for Sweet Young Trendy Thing Wait Staff who fail the old surliness requirements? --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Sat Mar 5 02:50:35 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:50:35 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: References: <3fd6b3e6050304075123be9f04@mail.gmail.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20050304105254.017e6a08@mail07.powweb.com> Message-ID: <007401c5212e$1bb84300$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louann Miller" > At 11:29 AM 3/4/2005 -0500, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > > > --- "John A.M. Darnell" > >wrote: > > > Exactly. Even more, they were sex objects who > > > could think, and thought "I'd rather be subservient > > > to men than be an independent person." > > > >My reaction was always that Heinlein did the best he > >could by women - that he wasn't sexist. He was just > >really, really bad at portraying well-written and > >convincing women. > > Compare him to Count Piotr -- the society changed so much that even though > he'd been a trailblazer in that same direction, in the end he couldn't keep up. That's sort of the case, though even today there are writers whose attitudes towards women are slightly friendlier that Taliban's... Heinlein was far ahead of the pack in his views about women decades ago, but it's a very long way from when he hit his majority to now in both time and attitudes. Heinlein had a somewhat limited range of characters--there was the Wise Old Person, which Hazel Stone and Lazarus Long both were. There were the earnest young folks. Etc. There are articles in various places about it. I defended Heinlein a bit, years ago in an article about C. J. Cherry's work in New York Review of Science Fiction. Other people have written quite extensively on the topic of Heinlein and his work directly, as opposed to the side comment I made. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Sat Mar 5 02:57:15 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:57:15 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Bull (was re Brust) OT: References: <20050303152818.98287.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> <166601c52062$aa702fd0$0100a8c0@heaviside> <20050304170347.GC16318@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <007b01c5212f$0a25b4f0$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Raun" > On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 09:34:17PM -0500, Paula Lieberman wrote: > > Last I was aware of the pair of them were in LA and had gotten > > involved in the film industry, writing screenplays or some > > such--which generally pays a LOT better than writing novels. > > They're currently living in Bisbee, AZ. Check out > http://www.geocities.com/qwertyranch/. That says they're moving to Tucson next month... Bisbee, I remember years ago someone saying that it was one of the least expensive places in the USA to buy a house. I have no idea if that is still true. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Sat Mar 5 03:06:37 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:06:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: A Younger take on Heinlein References: <14ae01c5201d$99ee7850$0100a8c0@heaviside> <5.1.0.14.2.20050304110438.02e51740@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <008401c52130$592e71d0$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Debbie" > >The first thing that comes to mind when I think of Heinlein is that is > >treatment of women sets my teeth on egde. Didn't the man think > >females might read his work? Back then SF was considered stuff that girls didn't read.... > >Anna > > I'm 38 and I have the same problem. My dh finds it even more offensive > than I do, and gave up on science fiction at a young age. 38 -- that equates to born in 1967 or so. _When It Changed_ by Joanna Russ came out in the early 1970s, along with a lot of other feminist SF. _The Feminine Mystique_ came out around 1963, which kicked off a lot of changes in society with women refusing to accept being relegated/resticted against their will permanently to the women's auxillary and locked out of professional worlds in business, science, politics, etc. purely on the basis of "no females wanted." It really was like that. It's more than a full generation since the likes of _When It Changed_ and feminism rising from the issues brought out by The Feminine Mystique, long enough for Susan Falluda's [spelling] book _Backlash_ to discuss reactionary responses to feminism eroding/trying to erode some of the progress made since 1963 in women getting promotions into management and professional opportunities and achievements that they were almost completely blocked out of 40 years ago. Heinlein's prime as a writer was more than three decades ago, probably in the 1950s to 1960s. Viewpoints and perspectives have changed since then. A lot of the SF in print then, isn't available now, and a lot of the current writers, weren't alive back then.... > > I was just commenting on another list that the only Walt Disney (the man, > not the company) works I can enjoy are the anthropomorphic ones, where the > misogyny can be glossed over as something lost in the inter-species > translation. > > Debbie > http://www.brigidsforge.com > Original sterling Gothic and Pagan jewelry --------________--------________-------- From mtraber251 at earthlink.net Sat Mar 5 04:39:00 2005 From: mtraber251 at earthlink.net (M. Traber) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 23:39:00 -0500 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James In-Reply-To: <005901c5212c$a6091d60$0100a8c0@heaviside> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050304184055.02979d60@pop.lunainternet.net> <4228D734.9040909@earthlink.net> <005901c5212c$a6091d60$0100a8c0@heaviside> Message-ID: <422937E4.8090703@earthlink.net> Paula Lieberman wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "M. Traber" >>There is a killer place to eat - fast sloppy service but big >>portions and an indian pudding to kill for=) I can never remember >>the name of the blasted place, but it is right in Faneiul >>Hall...however you spell *that* also=\ > > > Do you mean Durgin-Park, which apparently according to on-line reviews, > changed out its iron constitution ageless Surly Waitresses for Sweet Young > Trendy Thing Wait Staff who fail the old surliness requirements? oOOo, I dont know, are they the ones on the second floor of the building, with shared tables and benches? If so, I will miss the surly waitstaff...I wonder if the food is still good? At any rate, I am *sure* the 3 [or more] of us can find *something* innocen\\\\\not guilty yet fun to do=) -- -- For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Sat Mar 5 04:41:52 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:41:52 -0500 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050304184055.02979d60@pop.lunainternet.net> <4228D734.9040909@earthlink.net> <005901c5212c$a6091d60$0100a8c0@heaviside> <422937E4.8090703@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00d201c5213d$a7511e00$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "M. Traber" > Paula Lieberman wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "M. Traber" > > > Do you mean Durgin-Park, which apparently according to on-line reviews, > > changed out its iron constitution ageless Surly Waitresses for Sweet Young > > Trendy Thing Wait Staff who fail the old surliness requirements? > > oOOo, I dont know, are they the ones on the second floor of the > building, with shared tables and benches? If so, I will miss the That's Durgin-Park, the place that begrudgingly allowed electric lights in... used to make hidebound Barrayarans look like progressives! Some of its recipes are probably much that same that they were a couple hundred years ago! The area in the vicinity has majorly changed--the central artery is -down-. The traffic patterns are majorly different. Etc. > surly waitstaff...I wonder if the food is still good? > > At any rate, I am *sure* the 3 [or more] of us can find > *something* innocen\\\\\not guilty yet fun to do=) Anybody want me to contact Suford? She might still be lurking on the list, but hasn't read it in many months. Hmm, I should check the NESFA schedule.... April 27th is an Instant Message collation at the NESFA Clubhouse, at 504 Medford Street, Somerville. There are lots of Lois' books in there... There are usually people there on Wednesday nights, phone number if 617-625-2311 May 8th is the Annual Meeting, when NESFA's annual elections occur, also at the NESFA Clubhouse. --------________--------________-------- From mathews55 at msn.com Sat Mar 5 04:52:28 2005 From: mathews55 at msn.com (PAT MATHEWS) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 21:52:28 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Bull (was re Brust) OT: In-Reply-To: <20050303152818.98287.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I LOVED Bone Dance! Pat Living in a fantasy world - you say that like it's a bad thing. >From: J Selin >Reply-To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >To: LMB list >Subject: re: [LMB] Bull (was re Brust) OT: >Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:28:18 -0800 (PST) > >Jessy wrote: >I bought Freedom and Necessity, co-written with Emma Bull (who?), >years ago, > >Me: >Emma Bull is a good author but hasn't written much. War For The >Oaks, her first, was a fantasy. Her second, Falcon, is SF. Her >third, Bone Dance, is a weird mix that not everyone likes. Since >then I think she's been writing Bordertown stories with her husband >Will Shetterly (who?). I like all her books - including Bone Dance, >although it took some getting used to - and wish she'd write more. > >Harimad > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold --------________--------________-------- From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Sat Mar 5 05:21:37 2005 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 00:21:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] A Genius Explains Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.1.20050305001859.02e5a1f0@pop.mindspring.com> A very fascinating article.... http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,,1409903,00.html Jerrie --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Sat Mar 5 05:47:25 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:47:25 -0500 Subject: [LMB] re: Heinlein OT: References: <20050304220212.79303.qmail@web53702.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304152204.V52042@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <00fa01c52146$cf61af00$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Azalais Malfoy" > On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, J Selin wrote: > > > I agree with those who are saying that since women bear the brunt of > > pregnancy, and find it harder to deny parentity and thus walk away > > guiltless, then prudent women use birth control and don't depend on > > their partners to do so. > > Actually in California, you can leave a baby at a fire station or > hospital and walk away and under our law, they won't go looking > for you. The drop off the baby laws, are there to prevent infanticide. > The thing is, I'm not really sure what good it does children to > know that they have parents who don't want them, even if it does It probably doesn't do "good." There is speculaton that crime rates dropped because there were fewer unwanted children growing up abused/feeling unwanted, by resentful/neglectful parents who failed to provide decent socializing to the children. > improve their material status somewhat. I don't think it is a > responsible thing to do to have and keep a baby if you don't have > a support system that will enable you to take care of it > properly. An unwitting or careless or > whatever-you-want-to-call-him sperm donor does NOT in my opinion > constitute such a support system. Support payments however can make a material difference in quality of life for a child. > One of the main ideas behind ab*rtion reform was that consent to > sex did not have to be consent to parenthood. Yet let a woman Or -lack- of consent sex... > get pregnant, and if the man who sired the fetus but has no > relationship with the woman beyond a one night stand doesn't want > to 'be responsible' he's regarded as the worst kind of jerk. He was a jerk for ignoring the possibility of pregnancy. Accidents happen, not all birth control methods are completely reliable [there have even been cases where what vasectomy surgery was supposed to have severed, somehow managed to reconnect on its own!] and malice happens. There -are- males out there who even back at the height of the sexual revolution before herpes and HIV became news, insisted on using prophylactics to try to minimize becoming a biological father unintentionally. > There's something about this picture that just doesn't seem right > to me. Believe me, nobody's more aware than I am that pregnancy > can be life-threatening, and that no one should be forced to have > a life-threatening experience against hir will, but if your body > means it's your choice then it's your responsibility to deal with > the results of that choice, and I rather think that other people > should have about as much responsibility for your decisions as > they had input into them. But having consensual heterosexual sex, there -is- input from the male... and that possibility of pregnancy. Even today there are still cases of entrapment by women intentionally not using birth control. > Either intercourse morally equals consent to parenthood, or it That's not a binary question, though. There is almost always a possibility, unless the woman is long past menopause or had has a hysterectomy. The possibility might be small, but I know people who had kids who had been assured they were infertile. > doesn't; I don't mind if people want to say that men *should* > support children they sire whether or not they intended to sire > children, but please, if you're pro-choice and female, don't use > the same exact "if you don't want a kid, don't have intercourse" > argument that the anti-choice side is using with regard to *your* > rights. I don't say that the same way.... my view, again, is that there is a possibility. And abstinence ignores r*p*... --------________--------________-------- From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Sat Mar 5 05:50:50 2005 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 00:50:50 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: silly sleeping pose Olympics Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.1.20050305004858.02e75440@pop.mindspring.com> Far too much silly fun, for cat-lovers everywhere : http://www.christymarx.com/moggy/olympics.htm Jerrie --------________--------________-------- From cessnadriver at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 06:07:56 2005 From: cessnadriver at gmail.com (James) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:07:56 -0800 Subject: [LMB] GMail invites In-Reply-To: References: <62.4fb0f731.2f54a942@aol.com> <3fd6b3e605030111392b1b56dc@mail.gmail.com> <3b8ab98e05030121231fcdabfa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3b8ab98e05030422073b6e0bfb@mail.gmail.com> I sent out an invite, had 49, and now it's back to 50. --------________--------________-------- From cessnadriver at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 06:12:07 2005 From: cessnadriver at gmail.com (James) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:12:07 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Bujold book online - this legit or pirated? In-Reply-To: <4228A266.7080101@earthlink.net> References: <209a74ed05030308353ca77bfc@mail.gmail.com> <3b8ab98e05030321286df0a00c@mail.gmail.com> <4228A266.7080101@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3b8ab98e05030422126f9ff462@mail.gmail.com> Well, I tend to prefer the deadtree versions - sometimes it's nice to just flip through real paper than scroll, plus the resolution of the text is higher (easier on the eyes) and it lasts as long as there are photons that are bouncing off it. I've read through the series once, so I'm just going to get the electronic versions converted and read those when I reread them. --------________--------________-------- From cessnadriver at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 06:12:58 2005 From: cessnadriver at gmail.com (James) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:12:58 -0800 Subject: Heinlein was Re: [LMB] Book club questions (moving OT:) In-Reply-To: <20050304101532.R98332@shell.rawbw.com> References: <200503032203.WAA26601@talia3.herald.co.uk> <015e01c52044$b14548e0$69261aac@JaneWork> <42285B9D.CF04B24@erols.com> <20050304101532.R98332@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <3b8ab98e05030422122a7d69de@mail.gmail.com> The Door Into Summer is also a nice juvenile read. --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sat Mar 5 06:36:16 2005 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:36:16 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: A Younger take on Heinlein In-Reply-To: <00f801c52115$891c24c0$0200a8c0@sc> References: <3fd6b3e60503040738dd88779@mail.gmail.com> <14ae01c5201d$99ee7850$0100a8c0@heaviside> <20050304075201.87651.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> <3fd6b3e60503040738dd88779@mail.gmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050304120307.02e4fdd8@mail.bellsouth.net> <00f801c52115$891c24c0$0200a8c0@sc> Message-ID: <20050305063616.GA19793@ofb.net> On Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 03:54:42PM -0800, Lathia wrote: > >Short response: Contemplate "and be more convincing if their male leads > >are also strong, masculine, and manly, as well as heroic." > > > > That is almost exactly what I feel about some of Cherryh's main characters. What, that they're heroic despite not being strong, masculine, and manly? Or what? I usually think of Cherryh protags as "frightened in the dark", among other phrases. I guess that's not quite right. Or is right more of the males. Females are Pyanfar, Ari, and the one in Serpent's Reach. Brrr. Though there's still a major plot of desperately trying to figure out what in space is going on and what people want. -xx- Damien X-) "tin cans in space -- and the tin is thin" --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Sat Mar 5 07:15:25 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 02:15:25 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: A Younger take on Heinlein References: <3fd6b3e60503040738dd88779@mail.gmail.com> <14ae01c5201d$99ee7850$0100a8c0@heaviside> <20050304075201.87651.qmail@web50005.mail.yahoo.com> <3fd6b3e60503040738dd88779@mail.gmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050304120307.02e4fdd8@mail.bellsouth.net> <00f801c52115$891c24c0$0200a8c0@sc> <20050305063616.GA19793@ofb.net> Message-ID: <014a01c52153$1b263c60$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Sullivan" > On Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 03:54:42PM -0800, Lathia wrote: > > >Short response: Contemplate "and be more convincing if their male leads > > >are also strong, masculine, and manly, as well as heroic." > > > > > > > That is almost exactly what I feel about some of Cherryh's main characters. > > What, that they're heroic despite not being strong, masculine, and manly? Or > what? I usually think of Cherryh protags as "frightened in the dark", among > other phrases. Now, now, what about Hallan Meras [-handsome-, though Hilfy, who did NOT want to be distracted by this handsome, earnest, well-meaning, desperately wanting to do well young fellow], Py's husband, Finity's End's male captains including the junior one next on the list to become full crew, and the leads of Tripoint? > I guess that's not quite right. Or is right more of the males. Females are > Pyanfar, Ari, and the one in Serpent's Reach. Brrr. Though there's still a > major plot of desperately trying to figure out what in space is going on and > what people want. There's Hilfy Chanur, too, don't forget Signy Mallory... --------________--------________-------- From billie_t at fastmail.fm Sat Mar 5 10:15:21 2005 From: billie_t at fastmail.fm (Tracy MacShane) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 21:15:21 +1100 Subject: [LMB] OT: silly sleeping pose Olympics In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.1.20050305004858.02e75440@pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.1.20050305004858.02e75440@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <1110017721.28036.216621189@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 00:50:50 -0500, "Marty L. Adkins" said: > Far too much silly fun, for cat-lovers everywhere : > > http://www.christymarx.com/moggy/olympics.htm > Thanks so much Jerrie, I'd just eaten dinner and nearly made myself sick, laughing so much. I love the captions! :-) --------________--------________-------- From harimad2001 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 13:07:23 2005 From: harimad2001 at yahoo.com (J Selin) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 05:07:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Re: Other authors OT: Message-ID: <20050305130723.49336.qmail@web53708.mail.yahoo.com> Harimad writes: I found some excellent authors in that books, including Emma Bull, Judith Tarr and Derek De Lint (although I later decided I like De Lint's short stories but not novels) Mary asked: Who is Derek De Lint? Any relation to Charles? Me again: Whoops - Derek is an actor. Charles is the writer. Harimad __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --------________--------________-------- From ginni.berger at juno.com Sat Mar 5 02:29:22 2005 From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:29:22 -0500 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James Message-ID: <20050305.090010.2916.0.ginni.berger@juno.com> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:46:28 -0500 "M. Traber" writes: > James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: > > > I will also be in Tenerife 15-22 > > April, Boston 30 April - 8 May, > > > > Any offers? > > > > Best wishes - James the peripatetic > > OOoOo, ginnilee and I are almost with in spitting distance of > boston...maybe some carpool-fu might be in order, depending on > finances=) will try to start sneaking sheckels away=) > > There is a killer place to eat - fast sloppy service but big > portions and an indian pudding to kill for=) I can never remember > the name of the blasted place, but it is right in Faneiul > Hall...however you spell *that* also=\ > What she said. ;-) Ginnilee Lady Lavender of Teal --------________--------________-------- From ginni.berger at juno.com Sat Mar 5 14:47:37 2005 From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:47:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: silly sleeping pose Olympics Message-ID: <20050305.100442.2916.1.ginni.berger@juno.com> On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 00:50:50 -0500 "Marty L. Adkins" writes: > Far too much silly fun, for cat-lovers everywhere : > > http://www.christymarx.com/moggy/olympics.htm > > Jerrie > -- D*mm*t Jerrie, I was trying to eat breakfast, and now it's all over the computer screen! Ginnilee Lady Lavender of Teal --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Sat Mar 5 15:36:14 2005 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:36:14 EST Subject: [LMB] re: Heinlein OT: Message-ID: <144.40e681fc.2f5b2bee@aol.com> J Selin writes: But what I took from Heinlein's statement is that men are *absolved* of the responsibility as opposed to being able to *avoid* the responsibility. M: I doubt that was what Heinlein meant. He was big on responsibility in just about every other situation, why not that particular one? My interpretation would be that since men aren't dependable, women have taken over that "job," now that they can. Mary The Kikkoman newsletter was titled "March Into Spring with Kikkoman" if that helps, and the featured recipe was "Salmon Poki Bites" by Lisa Graf. I saved the newsletter and have sent it to you offlist. --------________--------________-------- From jessybrody at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 16:45:33 2005 From: jessybrody at gmail.com (Jessy Brody) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 16:45:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Heinlein, with a brief ObBujold, and a bit on Bradbury Message-ID: Heather: > Starship Troopers, to me, was fairly amusing (the advertisements and so on), so maybe you'd like Friday? ??? advertisements ??? Are we talking about the same book? Combines two themes that are frankly cliched (these days): giant insectoid aliens attacking earth and a wet-behind-the-ears kid joining the army and growing up. That one? Little Egret: > Certainly you should try _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ (revolution on Luna) and _The Number of the Beast_ and _Have Spacesuit will Travel_ (a YA). I think tMiaHM is the very best that Heinlein wrote. For a non Heinlein, how about Elizabeth Moon's Once a Hero (special LE award for a space navy story that doesn't have a nasty Admiral in it) ? Actually, was inspired by list to see what the school library had in terms of Heinlein and I'm now more than halfway through _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, and very happy I'm reading it to. A prison colony is always interesting (there was some historical fiction about Botany Bay I read a while ago, and liked, _Morgan's Run_, can't remember author), libertarian/anarchic social structure which I like, a self-aware computer, well-planned rebellion, interesting science, which is where Bujold is weak, I think. But then Bujold writes riveting characters that you don't like to stop thinking about, and Heinlein's characters taste a bit of cardboard. And the portrayal of women is a low-key but constant irritant. I'm pretty sure that I read _Stranger in a Strange Land_, but I don't remember a thing about it except that I had to make myself finish it. I guess I can't completely dismiss Heinlein from my bookshelves, at least for the sake of Starship Troopers, but never a favorite. I've had my fill of Ray Bradbury, too. Actually, the first book I read by him was _Dandelion Wine_, autobiographical, not SF, and it's my favorite thing by him. When I decided to not be a Bradbury fan, I only kept _Martian Chronicles_ bc it's a tiny book and I like the cover of my edition, but I kept _Dandelion Wine_ bc I actually like it. A classic of my childhood, if you get my meaning. Paula Lieberman: > Getting back to Heinlein, though, I wonder how Heinlein's work looks to people under 30, 25, 20.... Speaking as a 19 year old: briefly: I like Heinlein for the S (doesn't actually seem dated) and the well-conceived glimpses of the future, but not the F (painfully dated in portrayal of women, though not as bad as it could be, not overtly sexist or misogynist). To paraphrase Rhett Butler, I don't give a damn about what happens to them, but the plot is done well enough to keep me going. I can't read Heinlein as someone coming to Heinlein's work unacquainted with it. I read Lois' first novel long after having read dozens of books by Heinlein, work by Asimov, Simak, Zelazny, Sturgeon, Ballard, C. L. Moore, Kuttner, van Vagt, E. Mayne Hull, Edmond Hamilton, Leigh Brackett, Delany, Poul Anderson, Gordon R. Dickson, EE Smith, James Schmitz, Cordwainer Smith, Lord of the the Rings... but today readers are more likely to have Robert Jordan and Terry Goodkind and Laurell K. Hamilton, Tamora Pierce, Lois's work, David *b*r, John Ringo, "Robin Hobb," and other contemporary prolific, Lois's and other contemporary prolific popular authors' work Yeah, Tamora Pierce in middle school . Not what I'd call masterful prose. Mistressful. Magistral? Omnivorous and voracious reader that I was, it took me quite some time to develop taste and standards. Actually, I haven't read any of the others, but like I said I'm an omnivore and by no means solely dedicated to SF and fantasy. Ginnilee: > The good news and the bad news about Heinlein and female characters Me: Yes, and they aren't just wives and sweethearts left behind on earth by intrepid space explorers! Ginnilee: >the good news was that he sometimes actually had women in his stories, and there were more than Trophy Wives. The bad news is that he was still a product of his time and culture, and his women had a tendency to be superwomen "The females on Ganymede would have the chicken killed, plucking , and cooking before an Earthside girl would've stopped screaming" -- paraphrased out of Farmer in the Sky. Me: Know what you're talking about - that could be a line out of _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, though I don't see why you're saying that's a bad thing. Of course, Heinlein doesn't *do* egalitarianism, (and as Anna puts it, he oversexualizes women as well, sex objects who can think), though he does do respect-for-women, at least in tMisHM. The rebellion there wouldn't have gotten far without the women, but they help by doing 'female' things ie they don't go work as engineers on the super secret structure, but instead utilize a beauty parlor and the feminine predilection for gossip to pass on info and recruit other women. Egalitarian organizations and societies (the Dendarii), if only for the novelty. And of course there's now that debate on whether women are the equals of men in science and math, and if not then whether the gap is due to nature or nurture ... 'All You Zombies'? I think I've read that, actually. Time travel, and the interesting family trees resulting thereof? Ginnilee (_Number of the Beast_): injokes ... the last chapter was full of people I knew.... Me: ??? Consider my curiosty piqued. If that's the right word. Thanks for all the recs, guys! I will be doing some serious Heinlein reading in future. Anyway, thought I'd just compress all my replies on the Heinlein topic here, but it's getting looooong, so before I read the next digest, I'll just post this. JLB -- Welcome to Triage -Kurt Vonnegut He was never noisy and lacked the dogmatism of the insecure -written of George Orwell --------________--------________-------- From jessybrody at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 16:59:33 2005 From: jessybrody at gmail.com (Jessy Brody) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 16:59:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Brust Message-ID: Me unfortunately): > Anyway, Agyar is basically about [...] Stephanie: >Yes. You're not supposed to know what it's about before going in - that realization is supposed to dawn on you as you read it. The back-cover copy blew it in the first edition, and may still blow it for all I know since I haven't looked at it. Yeah, shouldn't have done it. Pressed send, had second thoughts, fumbled for the unsend button that my school's intranet email had, then had 'oh, shit!' moment. Sorry if I ruined it for anyone. Stephanie: > Does it help to know that Taltos is not a standalone novel, that it's partway through a series and there's a lot you should know before going in? Start with Jhereg. It was more that while I was interested in knowing what would eventually happen, I wasn't interested in actually reading all of Brust's prose. Which is why I had to check to make sure that Agyar was by the same Brust, bc I really enjoyed that book and have reread it several times without diminished enjoyment. Louann: > Trivia: I'm told that Agyar is Hungarian for "fang." What's the Hungarian for 'Thanks, that's very good to know'? ; ) (rhetorical) And thanks generally for all the Brust recs : ) Love recs. Will be giving Brust another chance, and probably reread Agyar. Again. JLB -- Welcome to Triage -Kurt Vonnegut He was never noisy and lacked the dogmatism of the insecure -written of George Orwell --------________--------________-------- From starrgessinger at yahoo.com Sat Mar 5 17:03:59 2005 From: starrgessinger at yahoo.com (starr gessinger) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:03:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] OT: ILL In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050305170359.21763.qmail@web51909.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Everybody, I volunteer for the Rice Street Library in Saint Paul, Minnesota and they will get ILL from across Minnesota with out charing, but if they go out of state they chage 3.00. However, the Ramsey County Librarys here in Minnesota will not charge for going out of state. What I do is if the ILL is in Minnesota I will go to the Rice Street Library and order it and if it's out of state I will go to one of the Ramsey County Librarys. Works out will for me. Starr Kevin Kennedy wrote: Some libraries charge to loan things out, some don't. I don't think I've ever asked for an ILL from a library that charged at the recieving end. The few times I've ever asked for an ILL here in Indianapolis, the form does have a space for 'How much do you want to pay for this?' and I just fill in $0. They'll borrow it from somewhere that does not charge. I'd only pay for an ILL if it was work-related or for academic research. When someone wiil pay to borrow, the library will pick the least expensive option among the avaliable choices. Someone may need something desperately enough to be willing to pay $50(random #), but if a library will charge less than that, that's where the material will come from. If you request something from a magazine, you'll get a photocopy, and probably the copying charges at least. Some things no library will loan out are very new&popular material, most reference matrial and any thing rare. So I'll never even try to ask for the newest Harry Potter or a Gutenber bible. Kevin Laura quoting Stephanie(I think) > > There's also interlibrary loan, which should allow your local library to > > get just about any book wihtout you ahving to drive across town, if your > > library subscribes to it. The Fort Worth library should definitely have > > the service. > >Saginaw charges significantly for it. Evil bad library. Only Heyers >are a couple of her mysteries, NO Bujold, and they won't even let me >give them any! [insert rest of the standard rant here] > >Driving across town currently seems my best option. And hey, >difficult though it can be with the kids, it gets me out of the house >occasionally, so probably a good idea. > >Thanks for the additional info. > >Laura Gallagher -- Lois-Bujold mailing list Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From jessybrody at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 17:06:35 2005 From: jessybrody at gmail.com (Jessy Brody) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:06:35 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Brust Message-ID: Me: > The one book I've read by Brust is Agyar. At least, I think it's by > Brust and I think that's what it's called but I guess the filter > thinks 'brust' looks too much like 'breast' so I can't google it. Damien: > Dear god. What a crappy filter. Me: I applaud that appropriately shocked and disgusted reaction. Work of the devil, you might say, but it's a Methodist school. I like to look on the bright side and tell myself that at least I'll never again take for granted being able to google without fear. I also resolve to stop bellyaching about it so much on online forums where such matters are totally OT Me: > my curiosity). This guy just keeps popping up. Obviously I need to > give him another chance. Though judging by what other ppl have been > saying, most ppl like some of his stuff but not all of his stuff. Damien: > The rabid fans haven't been speaking up yet. :) Cherryh is the one where you really get diverging opinions. I think liking most of Brust is more common, with lower frequencies of liking Cowboy Feng, To Reign in Hell, and _The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_. Paarfi will lose some people, too. But I don't think you get people loving the Paarfi novels and hating the Vlad novels. Me: Maybe the rabid fans are just being polite? Cherryh is yet another writer I've heard of but haven't made time for yet. So many books, so little time. Taste in literature is so subjective anyway; I always find it a source of a certain small wonder when someone likes or admires something I don't. I then I start dwelling on the disturbing thought that there is no truth ... JLB, who thinks too much -- Welcome to Triage -Kurt Vonnegut He was never noisy and lacked the dogmatism of the insecure -written of George Orwell --------________--------________-------- From jessybrody at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 17:25:40 2005 From: jessybrody at gmail.com (Jessy Brody) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:25:40 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Heinlein Message-ID: Alex H: > People used to complain that SF was written "above the waist". When Heinlein, pretty much as a first in the field, started writing SF with loins, people immediately jumped on him for being sex-crazed. Go figure. Me: Can't imagine what these ppl would say about Bujold ; ) Anyway, I think she has a nice balance between action and relationships. Even in ACC, which is *not* my favorite. JLB, who can't think of anything worthwhile to contribute to the 'portrayal of the sexes in SF, esp Heinlein' conversation, but is very interested PS Alex H, does it irritate you that I always use 'esp', 'bc' and 'ppl' instead of 'especially', 'because' and 'people'? Not to mention my sentence fragments (and excessive parentheticals). Though I can't claim to *like* typos. -- Welcome to Triage -Kurt Vonnegut He was never noisy and lacked the dogmatism of the insecure -written of George Orwell --------________--------________-------- From jessybrody at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 17:39:19 2005 From: jessybrody at gmail.com (Jessy Brody) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:39:19 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: A Younger take on Heinlein Message-ID: >Short response: Contemplate "and be more convincing if their male leads >are also strong, masculine, and manly, as well as heroic." > >-xx- Damien X-) Debbie: Ashakita in Princess Monoke? Me: Um, I don't think Damien was looking for examples of manly heroes (plenty of those. Buzz Lightyear, Han Solo, Sir Lancelot, Hercules) but was comparing and contrasting with what someone else, forget who, sorry, said about the best heroines being (paraphrase) 'sensitive and feminine as well as heroic'. I *think* what Damien was getting at was that 'heroic' and 'manly' by implication have overlapping meanings (traditionally): a real man is brave and heroic, a heroic person who is male is by definition manly. Whereas a womanly, feminine woman may be, in addition to those qualities, heroic. Damien seems to be pointing out that, traditionally, womanliness and heroism do not overlap, except in the 'Female of the Species'/don't get between a mother bear and her cubs sense: women are most dangerous when you threaten their mate and/or children, their bravery is biological, for the propogation of the species. Whereas men will be heroic for ideas and ideals. Wish I could think of a really killer example for what I mean ... If that makes any sense. JLB, who did warn of the intricacies of gender-difference discussions. Time to change subject line? -- Welcome to Triage -Kurt Vonnegut He was never noisy and lacked the dogmatism of the insecure -written of George Orwell --------________--------________-------- From jessybrody at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 17:57:51 2005 From: jessybrody at gmail.com (Jessy Brody) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:57:51 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Other Authors Message-ID: Harimad: > Now that I've dumped thoroughly on Heinlein I thought I'd talk about a book I like. > "After the King," a collection of short stories written in honor of Tolkein. I found some excellent authors in that books, including Emma Bull, Judith Tarr and Derek De Lint (although I later decided I like De Lint's short stories but not novels) In the wake of Those Films, I seem to be taking a hiatus from all things Tolkien. I'd already decided not to read LotR for at least a decade or 20 years or something bc I'd read them *so many* times as a child not taken to the library often enough and had read all the reading out of them. The plan was to read other things my Tolkien - did read The Silmarillion - but, well, I just don't have the heart. I know some ppl, including Tolkien fans (the kind that were fans before the films), like what Peter Jackson did well enough, but I have developed a severe aversion somehow. And now, thinking back to Tolkien's prose-style esp in most of Return of the King, I wonder how I became such a fan, esp starting at the tender age of 8 or 9. I don't think I could become a Tolkienite now. I'm not a huge purist, I think _Bored of the Rings_ and Cassandra Claire's online 'The Very Secret Diaries' (slash) are funny, I just have a prejudice against Those Films. I'm actually a very prejudiced person, but one who thinks living and letting live is a good idea, possibly bc I'm don't feel that I'm with the mainstream on a number of issues. But I don't want to think about politics. I'd like to stop reading the newspapers, but there are occasionally interesting articles, and I'm a compulsive reader anyway. If I'm eating, I want something to read to, and ... Wow. A beautiful example of a typically Jessian digression. I end up deleting most of them. You could form a new version of Six Degrees from Kevin Bacon based on conversational topics and the ability of a lateral thinker to jump from one to another in the space of a sentence. If I'm not careful, my friends spend a lot of time saying 'what are you talking about?' A lot of my emails have the subject line 'ramblings' or 'warning: major digressions'. Maybe this one should, too. JLB -- Welcome to Triage -Kurt Vonnegut He was never noisy and lacked the dogmatism of the insecure -written of George Orwell --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Sat Mar 5 17:59:04 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:59:04 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Heinlein References: Message-ID: <01f101c521ad$052fe190$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jessy Brody" > Alex H: > > People used to complain that SF was written "above the > waist". When Heinlein, pretty much as a first in the field, > started writing SF with loins, people immediately jumped on > him for being sex-crazed. Go figure. Heinlein on sex other than All You Zombies -gushes- like a 1980s Cosmopolitan magazane, "Oh girls this is so -WONDERFUL- and it is -so- over-the-top and all of you -must- run out and follow the trend and.." Blech!!!! It wasn't that Heinlein put s*x into his books, it was the nauseating Heinlein-discovers-the-s*x**l r*v*l*t**n and everyone is having such a MARVELLOUS time etc. etc. etc. saccharin tone to it.... \> > Me: > Can't imagine what these ppl would say about Bujold ; ) Anyway, I > think she has a nice balance between action and relationships. Even in > ACC, which is *not* my favorite. > > JLB, who can't think of anything worthwhile to contribute to the > 'portrayal of the sexes in SF, esp Heinlein' conversation, but is very > interested > > PS Alex H, does it irritate you that I always use 'esp', 'bc' and > 'ppl' instead of 'especially', 'because' and 'people'? Not to mention It irritates me, it's one thing to leave vowels out of a -few- words when in on-line chat, but leaving out the consonants and treating offline communications like on-line shorthand, irritates me--it would be like someone who decades ago was taking notes in shorthand writing, writing up the report based on the notes, in shorthand and handing it out to a audience that doesn't do or appreciate shorthand for reading reports in. > my sentence fragments (and excessive parentheticals). Though I can't > claim to *like* typos. --------________--------________-------- From jessybrody at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 18:16:59 2005 From: jessybrody at gmail.com (Jessy Brody) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:16:59 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Heinlein, but now circling back on-topic! Message-ID: Paula Lieberman: > Women had to sue in court in some states to keep using their maiden name even professionally--the late Prof. Vera Kistiakowsky" had to do that when she got married, her lawsuit said that she had a professional reputation and many publications as "Vera Kistiakowsky" and that it would be extremely professionally injurious to her career to her to have to use her huband's last name instead of "Kistiakowsky" which all her professional credentials and publications which under and by which she was known in her professional and had her entire professional reputation as. Using her husband's name would strip her of her professional achievements/identification of Vera "Kistiakowsky"'s professional reputation and achievements as hers, and of all recognition within her field. Me: Which leads me to a question I've been meaning to raise for a while: Professora Vorthys. OK, not really any textev (that I can remember) which we can use, but how much difficulty would she have had in getting a university education, a professorship, keeping her job after marriage (historically, employers didn't like hiring married women: that kind of policy found on Barrayar?) and while raising children? Is a lot of her success due to being married to a progressive man - like Ekaterin coming into her own in large part bc Miles has recognized her true worth (and I suppose we can argue how much of her developement is due to Miles, how much was long in coming, perhaps inevitable, anyway)? Might her (back to the Professora) academic career have taken off partly/primarily due to his encouragement and support after their marriage (she might have married young)? And so on. And shall we vote on whether Ekaterin should eventually become a terraformer very good at resolving disputes among coworkers or a diplomat with a horticultural hobby? Herself could do an Ekaterin spinoff - Miles settles down (eventually and with difficulty) to often light Auditorial duties as things become more and more stable within and without the Empire, while Ekaterin performs some remarkable diplomatic balancing act, probably involving subversive plots, to *keep* things on an even keel? But I still hope, personally, that the next Vorkosiverse novel is Ivan-centric (have we already talked about that, or is that just something I keep meaning to bring up?). Time for that boy to grow out of his cousin's shadow, and maybe get ppl to stop calling him 'that idiot'. And once that happens, it might be time to start writing about the next generation or maybe end the series (blasphemy! Or heresy? What's the difference between the two?). Well, there's always Mark, and his relationship with Kareen may not work out, and then he could do like Miles did, travelling around the Nexus, but doing business instead of making war. I'd also like to know how Byerley ended up working for ImpSec. And how old is he, anyway? Younger than Dono, yes, maybe Ivan's age, or even younger than that? JLB -- Welcome to Triage -Kurt Vonnegut He was never noisy and lacked the dogmatism of the insecure -written of George Orwell --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Sat Mar 5 18:27:05 2005 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 13:27:05 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Heinlein References: Message-ID: <4229F9F9.5376EEF0@erols.com> Jessy Brody wrote: > PS Alex H, does it irritate you that I always use 'esp', 'bc' and > 'ppl' instead of 'especially', 'because' and 'people'? Not to mention > my sentence fragments (and excessive parentheticals). Though I can't > claim to *like* typos. Nope. These are perfectly transparent. Sentence fragments are widely accepted in conversational or informal written materials, as well as literary arenas. As for parentheticals, that is a vice we share. It's just when the signal-to-noise ratio gets too low that I start losing interest in the posting, however good the content may be. And, as an ex-business type, I can promise people that white collar employers will fast track you to nowhere if you cannot write a comprehensible e-mail. --------________--------________-------- From lioness at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 5 18:36:34 2005 From: lioness at bellsouth.net (Debbie) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 12:36:34 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Changing gender descriptions was: A Younger take on Heinlein In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050305122744.0597c860@mail.bellsouth.net> > >Short response: Contemplate "and be more convincing if their male leads > are also strong, masculine, and manly, as well as heroic." > > > >-xx- Damien X-) > >Debbie: >Ashakita in Princess Monoke? > >Me: >Um, I don't think Damien was looking for examples of manly heroes >( >JLB, who did warn of the intricacies of gender-difference discussions. >Time to change subject line? That's why I gave him as an example. A lot of folks usually considered heroic just don't cut it these days. Gotta go, but to give a brief example, I think if I see one more "teenager is the only one who can save the whole universe" story, I'm tempted to shoot the protagonist. Any universe that fragile probably isn't worth saving. Debbie http://www.brigidsforge.com Original sterling Gothic and Pagan jewelry "He hasn't been the same since his spirit guide discovered object-oriented programming." --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Sat Mar 5 18:53:42 2005 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 13:53:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: References: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> <42289139.52EF8FD@erols.com> <189f01c520f6$5710f560$0100a8c0@heaviside> Message-ID: <422A0036.BC50682F@erols.com> Paula Lieberman wrote: > Women were banned from flying airliners For major airlines, yes. For some small private airlines, no. >, from flying military planes -- During WWII, no. After demob, probably yes. > Heinlein was -very- forward for his time having female pilots in Starship > Troopers, it was completely illegal in the USA for the military to have > female pilots at the time--and from all sorts of other professions. At the time, there were women lawyers, MDs, engineers, architects, etc. Just not a whole lot of them, and they did encounter some pretty significant barriers. In most cases, these were overcome because of the patronage of their successful fathers, wealthy patrons or patronesses, and sheer Milesian wall-playing determination. > [There are a lot > of people trying to set society back to the past, kick women out of > cockpits, out of positions as MDs back into nursing and women shouldn't be > doctors, that's for men, etc. Hunh? The majority of med school and law school graduates in the US are now women. The bad news about women escaping the nursing ghetto is that the quality of nursing care has declined dramatically - a bright woman interested in medicine is more likely to become an MD. (To contradict Borgos, the women on Barrayar aren't wasted. They are running the planetary infrastructure at a much higher level than that at which it would be run if the brilliant and bright were allowed to escape. Speaking as an escapee, I'm not complaining; as a social observer I have to be appalled at the effect.) In my last ten years of intensive national/international commercial flying, I have noticed fewer women pilots than there were 20 years ago, but I think that is for the same reason there are fewer women engineering graduates than there were 20 years ago. As for women pilots in the military, that's a more complex issue. Some is the sincere, if misplaced, desire to keep women pilots out of combat zones. Some is the result of the disastrous attempt some years back to jam a few unqualified women pilots into billets in which they immediately failed. The latter is a real shame, given that there are some data that appear to show that some women make better combat pilots than men. --------________--------________-------- From lioness at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 5 19:28:40 2005 From: lioness at bellsouth.net (Debbie) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 13:28:40 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <422A0036.BC50682F@erols.com> References: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> <42289139.52EF8FD@erols.com> <189f01c520f6$5710f560$0100a8c0@heaviside> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050305132534.05974f88@mail.bellsouth.net> >As for women pilots in the military, that's a more complex issue. Some is >the sincere, if misplaced, desire to keep women pilots out of combat >zones. Some is the result of the disastrous attempt some years back to jam >a few unqualified women pilots into billets in which they immediately >failed. The latter is a real shame, given that there are some data that >appear to >show that some women make better combat pilots than men. Women who are capable of becoming combat pilots tend to be much better than men. However, few women are capable of passing the requisite tests. It's one of the few places where a distinct biological-based difference in the majority of men vs. the majority of women can be noticed. Debbie http://www.brigidsforge.com Original sterling Gothic and Pagan jewelry "He hasn't been the same since his spirit guide discovered object-oriented programming." --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Sat Mar 5 19:58:15 2005 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:58:15 EST Subject: [LMB] OT: Heinlein Message-ID: <126.58212452.2f5b6957@aol.com> Ginnilee writes about Heinlein: The bad news is that he was still a product of his time and culture, and his women had a tendency to be superwomen "The females on Ganymede would have the chicken killed, plucking , and cooking before an Earthside girl would've stopped screaming" -- paraphrased out of Farmer in the Sky. M: That's actually a pretty common "country vs. city" attitude, and it is still found in rural areas. It's expressed by women, too. Mary --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Sat Mar 5 20:03:28 2005 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 15:03:28 EST Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Brust Message-ID: <1e9.37354b02.2f5b6a90@aol.com> Louann: > Trivia: I'm told that Agyar is Hungarian for "fang." M: It just struck me that if you put an M in front of that, it becomes their name for themselves. Kind of makes me wonder about their self-image, and where they got the genes for Taura-- Mary --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Sat Mar 5 20:12:51 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 15:12:51 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: References: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> <42289139.52EF8FD@erols.com> <189f01c520f6$5710f560$0100a8c0@heaviside> <422A0036.BC50682F@erols.com> Message-ID: <020501c521bf$b5c84bc0$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandra Haropulos" [warning, you stepped on hot buttons on mine, that have been there for at least 48 of my 51 years of existence... yes, I was a FEMINIST at the age of three, I noticed -then- the sexual discrimination and denial of opportunities to girls and women to be pilots, astronauts, lawyers, doctors, scientists, engineers, CEOs, etc.] > Paula Lieberman wrote: > > > Women were banned from flying airliners > > For major airlines, yes. For some small private airlines, > no. I wrote "airliners," not "puddle jumper podunk hicksville commuter lines". There's a difference between a 707 and a turboprop holding four to maybe eleven people. > >, from flying military planes -- > > During WWII, no. After demob, probably yes. The Women's Air Service Pilots weren't given military status until a few years ago, retroactively, and were used exclusively for ferrying planes and I think also some pilot instructor duties. They were never doing actual "operational" flying of planes on missions of surveillance, reconnaissance, transporting supplies (but most supplies transporting was done by ship..), bomber missions, fighter escort, etc. After WWII ended, all the WASPs were booted out of US government-owned planes' cockpits. Some were able to go into the US military, as "non-rated" military members--that is, allowed into the military but NOT in any flying position. There is a lot of material available on it, and the bitterness of the women who thought they had been promised places in the US military. They didn't even get official veteran status until a few years ago! They felt completely betrayed. > > Heinlein was -very- forward for his time having female pilots in Starship > > Troopers, it was completely illegal in the USA for the military to have > > female pilots at the time--and from all sorts of other professions. > > At the time, there were women lawyers, MDs, engineers, > architects, etc. Just not a whole lot of them, and they did This looks like retconning to me. Go read e.g. Elizabeth Moons' newsgroup. Her mother had been a WASP and an engineer, but couldn;t get a -job- as an engineer, because she was female. The best that anyone offered her was a position doing drafting... not a "professional" slot. I have a relative who's been at what today is MIT Lincon Laboratory, since when it was the under a different name on rat-infested wharves in Boston. He had a woman for a boss, and they went down to Washington on a business trip. Everyone in DC acted as though he, a very junior engineer at the time, was the boss and his boss didn't exist or was a clerical flunky. Twenty five years ago I was at MILCOM, a military communications conference. "Good morning Ladies and Gentleman," said the first speaker of the morning in a session to a room with 140 people in it (I counted)," I assume there are some ladies in the audience?" "Hello," I spoke up and waved from the rear of the room, being the ONLY woman in there.... That was TYPICAL. > encounter some pretty significant barriers. In most cases, > these were overcome because of the patronage of their > successful fathers, wealthy patrons or patronesses, and "wealthy patrons and patronesses?" What world are you talking about?! In the business world, that's not at all the situation! Patrons? Maybe that happens in the arts, but otherwise... the world out there is a -corporate- world, and the corporate world traditions are to "appoint and promote people who look like white male bosses." Note that a lot of the few large businesses founded by women, were founded by Queen Bees who didn;t -want- any other women around them.... > sheer Milesian wall-playing determination. That doesn't necessarily work. If people are not going to even acknowledge your existence, it becomes almost impossible to get anywhere. Notice that the Horror Writers of America has been having female members quit. There's a new organization that just formed called "Persephone" in reaction, founded by female writers who have gotten totally disgusted as the misogyny of the HWA and decided to start their own group for mutual support and promotion of their careers and horror writing. > > [There are a lot > > of people trying to set society back to the past, kick women out of > > cockpits, out of positions as MDs back into nursing and women shouldn't be > > doctors, that's for men, etc. > > Hunh? The majority of med school and law school graduates in > the US are now women. The bad news about women escaping the So what, does that mean that they get the plum job and promotion opportunties? Most of the cooking in the USA is done by women, but most of the highly paid chefs are -male-. Paul Prudhomme and Martin Yan are household names, but Julia Childs was never really a professional chef--she learned French cooking in France as a diplomat's wife or some such who had been disastrous at cooking, but she never that I am aware of actually -worked- as a chef in a restaurant or other part of the food service industry, as opposed to being on TV teaching cooking. Joyce Chen actually was a professional chef, but that was rare. Most chefs, who are commercial food service workers at the high prestigious end of the business, are -male-. > nursing ghetto is that the quality of nursing care has > declined dramatically - a bright woman interested in Actually, that's because a lot of nurses -quit- in disgust at conditions and the lousy pay, and the healthcare industry only started recently increasing the pay to more decent levels because US citizens were deciding against nursing as a career, due to being treated rotten by MDs, taken for granted, given lousy work hours, overtime on capricious schedules, low pay, etc... I have friends who until very recently were in the healthcare industry (they're out on long term disability now, one with Parkinson's, another recovering from a quintuple bypass). Many of the nurses in the USA now are recent immigrants from other countries trained as nurses in other countries, where the pay is lower than it is here--causing in nursing shortage in the countries they've immigrated from. > medicine is more likely to become an MD. > > (To contradict Borgos, the women on Barrayar aren't wasted. > They are running the planetary infrastructure at a much > higher level than that at which it would be run if the > brilliant and bright were allowed to escape. Speaking as an Nice for them [sarcasm] ... > escapee, I'm not complaining; as a social observer I have to > be appalled at the effect.) Better to allow them to be remunerated at the level they would be if male and get the prestige and social rewards etc. My sympathies are not with any system that survives by exploiting people... > In my last ten years of intensive national/international > commercial flying, I have noticed fewer women pilots than > there were 20 years ago, but I think that is for the same > reason there are fewer women engineering graduates than > there were 20 years ago. As for women pilots in the And that is? Some of it is social, a lot of it is professional--the barriers are still there, and the women decide they don't want to deal with the misogyny and mistreatment and busting their brains only to get abused... it happens to a lesser degree with men, did you notice that the financier who was the first "space tourist" originally was a scientist or engineer at JPL/NASA before he decided that changing careers into something offering him a better opportunity of getting filthy rich, would give him a better chance to get into space, via -buying- his way there?! > military, that's a more complex issue. Some is the sincere, > if misplaced, desire to keep women pilots out of combat [pet peeve issue....] I wonder, why does nobody every talk about "man pilots:" as opposed to "woman pilots." Sounds stupid to use that noun as an adjective, doesn't it, especially since "man" is not entirely unambigious regarding meaning "adult male human, adult human, or member of the species homo sapiens generally." \> zones. Some is the result of the disastrous attempt some > years back to jam a few unqualified women pilots into > billets in which they immediately failed. The latter is a Nobody seems to notice all the crashes caused by male pilots. What you;'re referring to was calumny from the [expletive deleted] with her single issue politics-bent so-called "Center for Military Readiness" faux think tank--she set it up as being every bit as much a think tank with openminded attitudes and analysis as Beverly LaHayes' Concerned Women of America, or Phyllis Shlafly's Eagle Forum--they are organizations with specific politcial agendas regarding women, that women don't belong in the military other than as low level powerless flunky clerks, that women's only "natural" place is as wife and mother and homemaker and moral preceptress as mother and nurturer, and that LaHaye, Shflaly, and Elaine Donnelly (just remembered her name) are EXEMPT from being restricted to the stay at home mommy track--they are Empowered and Specially Privileged to be -paid- to be away from home speaking out on how women should not be in any combat position in the USA and should not be in powerful positions in government, law, business, any professions, because Mommies belong at Home cooking and cleaning and raising the children and standing behind their husbands, that it's the husbands who should have public and business and politics lives, wives should be behind them, not at their sides in public, or even in front of them. Except, of course, that LaHaye, Shlafly, and Donnelly (who is a Shlafly protege who showed up one day in tow by Shlafly screeching that women shouldn't be in the miliary and shouldn't be pilots etc. decades ago, and apparently no only has no personal military service experience, but has no professional credentials of formal classroom for credit accredited university study about the military, either...) have spent larges amount of time away for home as paid speakers excreting over the idea of women having public careers in business, government, law, the military, etc., and spending time away from Family and Children. > real shame, given that there are some data that appear to > show that some women make better combat pilots than men. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Sat Mar 5 20:22:10 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 15:22:10 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Heinlein References: <126.58212452.2f5b6957@aol.com> Message-ID: <021801c521c1$032fb4b0$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: > Ginnilee writes about Heinlein: > > The bad news is that > he was still a product of > his time and culture, and his women had a tendency to be superwomen "The > females on Ganymede would have the chicken killed, plucking , and cooking > before an Earthside girl would've stopped screaming" -- paraphrased out of > Farmer in the Sky. Actually that was mostly me saying it. The point that I wanted to make was that the adolescent female lead in Farmer in the Sky was a Does Everything!!! Heinlein superwoman. Perhaps I didn't pick a most appropriate example: what I was trying to convey was that the Heinlein heroine is more than competent at everything. She's the "whore in the bedroom, the perfect lady in public" who's smart and sexy and loyal and is skilled at everything from cooking from grabbing a live chicken from a flock, killing it, plucking it, eviserating it, cooking it and serving it when "normal" women can't deal with the idea of having to kill and prepare chicken dinner from a live chicken; and when it's dinner time she instantly changes from her bird slaugthter and kitchen wizard personae, into the suave sophisticated dinner companion at the table.... > M: > > That's actually a pretty common "country vs. city" attitude, and it is still > found in rural areas. It's expressed by women, too. --------________--------________-------- From lioness at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 5 20:33:35 2005 From: lioness at bellsouth.net (Debbie) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:33:35 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Heinlein In-Reply-To: <021801c521c1$032fb4b0$0100a8c0@heaviside> References: <126.58212452.2f5b6957@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050305143102.05989b60@mail.bellsouth.net> >Actually that was mostly me saying it. The point that I wanted to make >was that the adolescent female lead in Farmer in the Sky was a Does >Everything!!! Heinlein superwoman. Heinlein's expectations of men were just as high. Remember the list of things a man "should" be able to do from "The Notebooks of Lazarus Long." He expected *everybody* to be superpeople. Debbie http://www.brigidsforge.com Original sterling Gothic and Pagan jewelry "He hasn't been the same since his spirit guide discovered object-oriented programming." --------________--------________-------- From tiamat at tsoft.com Sat Mar 5 20:31:53 2005 From: tiamat at tsoft.com (Azalais Malfoy) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:31:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <020501c521bf$b5c84bc0$0100a8c0@heaviside> References: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> <42289139.52EF8FD@erols.com> <189f01c520f6$5710f560$0100a8c0@heaviside> <422A0036.BC50682F@erols.com> <020501c521bf$b5c84bc0$0100a8c0@heaviside> Message-ID: <20050305122414.W23151@shell.rawbw.com> On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Paula Lieberman wrote: > [warning, you stepped on hot buttons on mine, that have been > there for at least 48 of my 51 years of existence... Yes, Paula, we know already. We know you were a feminist at three, too. Actually, I personally think the reason so few white American women become nurses any more is that because most of the ones who are interested in medicine specifically are doctors. There are also a lot of female mental-health professionals and physical therapists, etc. White middle-class American women who do become nurses tend to become transplant coordinators, nurse practitioners, nurse midwives...not hospital nurses. Hospitals don't even hire that many RN's because they have to pay them. I work in a medical school hospital. Very few of the young male students in the MD program are white; most of them are Asian. There are plenty of white *girls* though. Whether or not this has to do with the fact that being a doctor in the USA is now primarily a nurturing or research position, and that you can no longer get rich doing that unless you are a plastic surgeon, because it is the insurance companies who are getting rich, I leave as an exercise to the reader. ~malfoy :/ ************************************************************************** "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out there who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand "It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann --------________--------________-------- From noelrappin at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 20:32:23 2005 From: noelrappin at gmail.com (Noel Rappin) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:32:23 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: An Older take on Heinlein (was a Younger) In-Reply-To: <15d.4bd7a809.2f59c07c@aol.com> References: <15d.4bd7a809.2f59c07c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:45:32 EST, CatMtn at aol.com wrote: > People have compared Heinlein and Asimov as if they were contemporaries, but > Heinlein was a midwesterner born in 1907, and most women in his experience were > likely to have been housewives, while Asimov was born in Russia in 1920 and > grew up from age 3 in NY City, where many women had careers or at least worked > outside the home. Also, a lot happened in those 13 years--WW I and the > Spanish Flu were among the events that Heinlein experienced and Asimov didn't. > They both were published for the first time in the same year, but Asimov was a > teenager and Heinlein a man in his thirties. True, but cutting against that a little bit is the fact that, by the time he started publishing, Heinlein had much more diverse life experience outside his original upbringing than Asimov, even accounting for their age difference. I'll probably mess up the bio details here, but Heinlein had been in and out of the Navy, tried local politics, held a number of jobs, and was married. Asmiov was a college student who had almost never left New York after his family arrived there. If I'm remembering Asimov's autobiographies correctly, the young Asimov found the less-young Heinlein quite worldly, and not exactly traditional in his outlook... Also, a lot of people have mentioned _I Will Fear No Evil_ here -- it's probably worth noting that Heinlein got quite sick after writing this novel, and much of the final editing was done by his wife. I'm not saying that suddenly makes it a better book or anything, but it's probably not the best source for Heinlein's thoughts on the world. Noel, who'd rather read Asimov than Heinlein, if forced to choose. -- Noel Rappin noelrappin at alumni.brandeis.edu --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 20:48:51 2005 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:48:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Meaning of Agyar in Magyar In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.1.20050303233519.02d46480@pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.1.2.1.20050303233519.02d46480@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: >Trivia: I'm told that Agyar is Hungarian for "fang." No. "Az agya'ra megy" (Azz adj aw rah mage) means "it is driving him mad." Agy (pronounced like adj- at the start of adjective) is the noun for brain. One of the three meanings for -ar is a suffix/noun for flood or current. From the grammatical use of the suffix the cultural meaning of the two is the kind of insanity that used to be called brain fever (along with several other viral infections that could trigger dementia.) Rabies and encephalitis are other words. But Magyar is a language with several meanings for each word at the same time. I assume as a Magyar speaker that Brust is well aware of the 'Mad Hungarian' stereotype, the popular connection between Hungarians and vampires, and the close similarity between Agyar and Magyar and is playing on all of them. Susan in Kent aka Profitne' Zsuzsa (Why yes, I eat garlic and play in the sunshine, why do you ask?) --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Sat Mar 5 20:19:11 2005 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:19:11 -0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Heinlein, with a brief ObBujold, and a bit on Bradbury Message-ID: <200503052107.VAA14471@talia3.herald.co.uk> > From: Jessy Brody > Date: 05 March 2005 16:45 [...] > Yeah, Tamora Pierce in middle school . Not what I'd call > masterful prose. Mistressful. Magistral? Omnivorous and voracious > reader that I was, it took me quite some time to develop taste and If you were required to read Tamora Pierce in middle school you might try some of her later work. I recommend the recent "Circle opens" set Magic Steps, Street Magic, Cold Fire, Shatterglass. Sample chapters from all these and others at http://www.tamora-pierce.com/ (includes one from the the next _The Empress Commands_) Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Sat Mar 5 21:16:12 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 16:16:12 -0500 Subject: [LMB] White, nurses, medicine, was Re: Heinlein OT: References: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> <42289139.52EF8FD@erols.com> <189f01c520f6$5710f560$0100a8c0@heaviside> <422A0036.BC50682F@erols.com> <020501c521bf$b5c84bc0$0100a8c0@heaviside> <20050305122414.W23151@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <023501c521c8$8f620a30$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Azalais Malfoy" > On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Paula Lieberman wrote: > > > [warning, you stepped on hot buttons on mine, that have been > > there for at least 48 of my 51 years of existence... > > Yes, Paula, we know already. We know you were a feminist at > three, too. I was giving a warning. There might actually be people in here who had not been apprised priorly, sometimes new people do show up in the list.... or forget, willingly or unwillingly, things that get mentioned. It's not as if what I was at three is an important issue relevant to most people's everyday lives! > Actually, I personally think the reason so few white American > women become nurses any more is that because most of the ones who > are interested in medicine specifically are doctors. There are > also a lot of female mental-health professionals and physical > therapists, etc. I have a second cousin who's a psychologist. She's older than I. Her father was a highly respected MD. She would have liked to have followed in his footsteps, but medical school was hostile to women back then/girls didn't generally become doctors and were discouraged from it directly and indirectly (she's older than I am by some years), and wound up deciding to become a psychologist instead, as something on the edges of medicine and which treated people to try to improve their lives, but which wasn't as forbidding to women and declared offlimits. I don't think she ever really considered becoming a nurse. The spiel promoting nursing, when I was child and young women, including that it was a nurturing position, one with a lot in common psychically with motherhood and teaching--the idea of taking care of people and nurturing them and helping them to better health/to learning/to growth, and being an important assistant and bulwark for others to have better lives. It was seen as a career that was non-threatening to the idea of male supremacy and superiority--the doctor was the person making the decisions about patient treatment, doing the surgery, doing the diagnosing, etc. Hmm, the written in the 1950s and 1960s and 1970s James White stories about "Sector General" are representative--the lead characters include Conway the physician, and Murchison the nurse... "Sector General" is a space station that's a huge hospital, that treats all the different intelligent species in the sector, and has staff from lots different species--there's Dr Pricla who's like a giant butterfly, there are big armored species, there are Earth humans, etc., and there are "tapes" made from expert MDs that the MDs have written into their brains on a temporary or permanent bases--male MDs get them, that is, with the claim having been written into the series' view of the universe, that female brains were incapable of dealing with it. Ahem. Aggravated me back in the 1960s as gender bias.... Long long after, the author couldn't really retcon the situation, but tried some workaround raising Murchison from a nurse to a more regarded as professional rather than blue collar position.... [in terms of how nursing used to be regards, by "professional" I meant the likes of MD, lawyer, and such, as opposed to more support staff stuff . Sigh, I am NOT finding the words I want to use here, for what I'm trying to say, and I suspect that it's going to come across even more awkwardly for people trying to read this, than for me struggling to write it!] There's also a lot of rethinking that's been going about nursing as a career, and the career path in it... medicine;'s change, with huge amounts of technology added for MRIs, CAT scans, patient monitors... the number medical technician for operating equipment has probably grown a lot, with the growth in equipment, for example. And the industry has tried to cut way back on the number of nurses and other actual patient attendant positions.... > White middle-class American women who do become nurses tend to > become transplant coordinators, nurse practitioners, nurse > midwives...not hospital nurses. Hospitals don't even hire that > many RN's because they have to pay them. > > I work in a medical school hospital. Very few of the young male > students in the MD program are white; most of them are Asian. > There are plenty of white *girls* though. > > Whether or not this has to do with the fact that being a doctor > in the USA is now primarily a nurturing or research position, and > that you can no longer get rich doing that unless you are a > plastic surgeon, because it is the insurance companies who are > getting rich, I leave as an exercise to the reader. There may be "prestige" issues, too... when more than a certain percentage of women enters a career area, the level of pay and prestige afforded that career tends to drop. Grrr. --------________--------________-------- From jessybrody at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 21:17:04 2005 From: jessybrody at gmail.com (Jessy Brody) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:17:04 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Gmail invites Message-ID: James: > I sent out an invite, had 49, and now it's back to 50. Yeah, me too. ??? JLB -- Welcome to Triage -Kurt Vonnegut He was never noisy and lacked the dogmatism of the insecure -written of George Orwell --------________--------________-------- From jessybrody at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 21:19:42 2005 From: jessybrody at gmail.com (Jessy Brody) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:19:42 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Heinlein Message-ID: Laura Gallagher: > a woman, and I like reading Heinlein's women Personally, I'm just not too interested in Heinlein's characters generally. Well, I kind of like the narrator of _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, but he's just a little too good to be true; whereas Miles and many other Bujold characters have such interesting flaws and weaknesses and do all kinds of plot-driving things in their struggles with those flaws. I don't think you can persuasively argue that he doesn't stereotype the genders at all, it's really just a (very subjective) question of to what extent and how offensive/irritating/distracting/what-have-you to the modern reader it is. Not that I'm suggesting the conversation end. Oh, no. I just think it won't go anywhere, though it might get bogged down in the intricacies (potentially fascinating) of gender-differences, etc. and that the scenery on the way might be very interesting indeed. JLB -- Welcome to Triage -Kurt Vonnegut He was never noisy and lacked the dogmatism of the insecure -written of George Orwell --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Sat Mar 5 21:20:53 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 16:20:53 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: References: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> <42289139.52EF8FD@erols.com> <189f01c520f6$5710f560$0100a8c0@heaviside> <5.1.0.14.2.20050305132534.05974f88@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <024301c521c9$36e3f7a0$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Debbie" > >As for women pilots in the military, that's a more complex issue. Some is > >the sincere, if misplaced, desire to keep women pilots out of combat > >zones. Some is the result of the disastrous attempt some years back to jam > >a few unqualified women pilots into billets in which they immediately > >failed. The latter is a real shame, given that there are some data that > >appear to > >show that some women make better combat pilots than men. > > Women who are capable of becoming combat pilots tend to be much better than > men. However, few women are capable of passing the requisite tests. It's > one of the few places where a distinct biological-based difference in the > majority of men vs. the majority of women can be noticed. Please cite your references for that. If it is anything out of the so-called Center for Military Readiness or secondary sources citing at expert authority Elaine Donelly and her fellow ideologues with agenda masquerading as researchers, it's got all the credibility of a male who's spent his entire life on Athos talking about female pilots. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Sat Mar 5 21:31:50 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 16:31:50 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein [on topic] References: Message-ID: <025401c521ca$be428cb0$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jessy Brody" > Personally, I'm just not too interested in Heinlein's characters > generally. Well, I kind of like the narrator of _The Moon is a Harsh > Mistress_, but he's just a little too good to be true; whereas Miles > and many other Bujold characters have such interesting flaws and > weaknesses and do all kinds of plot-driving things in their struggles > with those flaws. > > I don't think you can persuasively argue that he doesn't stereotype > the genders at all, it's really just a (very subjective) question of > to what extent and how offensive/irritating/distracting/what-have-you > to the modern reader it is. Not that I'm suggesting the conversation > end. Oh, no. I just think it won't go anywhere, though it might get > bogged down in the intricacies (potentially fascinating) of > gender-differences, etc. and that the scenery on the way might be very > interesting indeed. I think a relevant question, which is completely on-topic, is "how was/how much has Lois' work been influenced by Heinlein's work, his characters, his gender relations?" Heinlein showed -some- change over the years--e.g., Libby would up getting a sex change from male to female, but how much of that was actual change, and how much of that was change in what publishers would allow to be published? Lois' career started after a lot of changes in what was considered publishable in mass market overtly occurred--her work started coming out around the same time as Melissa Scott's first novel came out from Baen. In that book, _Five-twelfths of Heaven_, the main lead character is a female heterosexual in an increasingly misogynistic part of the universe, and she meets and marries a pair of homosexual male partners, fulfilling their need for a second licensed pilot, and for a way for them to legally be around that homophobic in addition to misogynistic part of space. The regions allows polyandry, though it's unusual, but not homosexual marriage. --------________--------________-------- From jessybrody at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 21:33:35 2005 From: jessybrody at gmail.com (Jessy Brody) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:33:35 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Heinlein Message-ID: Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 13:27:05 -0500 From: Alexandra Haropulos To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Heinlein Reply-To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Me: > PS Alex H, does it irritate you that I always use 'esp', 'bc' and > 'ppl' instead of 'especially', 'because' and 'people'? Not to mention > my sentence fragments (and excessive parentheticals). Though I can't > claim to *like* typos. Alex H: Nope. These are perfectly transparent. Sentence fragments are widely accepted in conversational or informal written materials, as well as literary arenas. As for parentheticals, that is a vice we share. It's just when the signal-to-noise ratio gets too low that I start losing interest in the posting, however good the content may be. And, as an ex-business type, I can promise people that white collar employers will fast track you to nowhere if you cannot write a comprehensible e-mail. Me: I just thought you were a little short with, um, who was it? I'm hopeless with names. But let's drop it - I thought you were a little sharp, and saw an opportunity to be clever, I guess, otherwise I would have silently been on your side. Clarity is everything. I know I'm quoting someone ... JLB -- Welcome to Triage -Kurt Vonnegut He was never noisy and lacked the dogmatism of the insecure -written of George Orwell --------________--------________-------- From jessybrody at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 21:44:48 2005 From: jessybrody at gmail.com (Jessy Brody) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:44:48 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Changing gender descriptions was: A Younger take on Heinlein Message-ID: > >Short response: Contemplate "and be more convincing if their male leads > are also strong, masculine, and manly, as well as heroic." > > > >-xx- Damien X-) > >Debbie: >Ashakita in Princess Monoke? > >Me: >Um, I don't think Damien was looking for examples of manly heroes Debbie: > That's why I gave him as an example. A lot of folks usually considered heroic just don't cut it these days. Nevermind, not worth the quibble, since we don't seem to be on the same wavelength anyway. It's probably one of those situations where we're both right but about different things. Or possibly one of those situations where I'm simply being obtuse. Debbie: > Gotta go, but to give a brief example, I think if I see one more "teenager is the only one who can save the whole universe" story, I'm tempted to shoot the protagonist. Any universe that fragile probably isn't worth saving. Too simplistic a storyline, as though if you solve one clearly stated, black and white problem everything falls into place. Unsatisfying. Well, I suppose it appeals to ppl's fantasies of being 'the one', as in The Matrix or that series by David (and now Leigh) Edding. Could Dubya have that problem? If I can just get the Muslims to set up democracies, he thinks, all their other problems will go away and there won't be any more terrorists. Won't snark about religion, tempting though it is. Actually, won't say another word about US politics. Sick of thinking about it, anyway. JLB, exasperated voter -- Welcome to Triage -Kurt Vonnegut He was never noisy and lacked the dogmatism of the insecure -written of George Orwell --------________--------________-------- From jessybrody at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 21:51:51 2005 From: jessybrody at gmail.com (Jessy Brody) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:51:51 +0000 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Heinlein Message-ID: Alex H: > The bad news about women escaping the nursing ghetto is that the quality of nursing care has declined dramatically - a bright woman interested in medicine is more likely to become an MD. Speaking as an escapee, I'm not complaining; as a social observer I have to be appalled at the effect.) Could the answer possibly be immigration? Dunno if I'm being sarcastic or serious. JLB -- Welcome to Triage -Kurt Vonnegut He was never noisy and lacked the dogmatism of the insecure -written of George Orwell --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Sat Mar 5 22:06:19 2005 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:06:19 EST Subject: [LMB] OT: An Older take on Heinlein (was a Younger) Message-ID: <13f.e7582cf.2f5b875b@aol.com> Noel writes: If I'm remembering Asimov's autobiographies correctly, the young Asimov found the less-young Heinlein quite worldly, and not exactly traditional in his outlook... M: Oh, I agree. I was just pointing out that comparing them was sort of comparing apples and oranges when it comes to their backgrounds, and there were people talking as if they were age-mates and as if the cultures of the midwest and Brooklyn were the same or very similar. Heinlein had seen a lot more of the world, in a way, but it was a very different world. Heinlein went to the Naval Academy (no girls at that time) while Asimov went to Columbia. Heinlein also had a lot of ship duty in his naval career, then was invalided out of the navy when he contracted TB while stationed in Panama. Anyway, whatever attitudes either had formed about women were bound to be determined to some extent by their backgrounds. Mary --------________--------________-------- From t.vinson at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 5 22:15:43 2005 From: t.vinson at sbcglobal.net (Tom Vinson) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 16:15:43 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Goddess for Hire, Bujold moment Message-ID: <94d534cb23308bf178f9ebc8f9b73cce@sbcglobal.net> I'm part way through Sonia Singh's _Goddess for Hire_ (chapter 35) and discovered that the heroine should have read _Warrior's Apprentice_ rather than watching so many vids. >I called the Goddess Within...then kicked the door down. >... >Two guys--one white, one black--whirled to face me, >guns outstretched. >Maybe next time I should try stealth. But a bit later, it seems she might be familiar with Miles after all. >After all, what went better with self-pity than alcohol? All in all an entertaining book. Reminds me of Judith Viorst's* _Murdering Mr. Monti_. Tom (If this comes through without line breaks I'd be happy to hear any hints anyone may have on how to force them using the Mac OSX email clent.) [*] author of _Alexander and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day. --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Sat Mar 5 22:11:34 2005 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:11:34 -0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein [on topic] Message-ID: <200503052217.WAA15042@talia3.herald.co.uk> > From: Paula Lieberman > Date: 05 March 2005 21:31 [...] > Lois' career started after a lot of changes in what was considered > publishable in mass market overtly occurred--her work started coming out > around the same time as Melissa Scott's first novel came out from Baen. In > that book, _Five-twelfths of Heaven_, the main lead character is a female > heterosexual in an increasingly misogynistic part of the universe, and she > meets and marries a pair of homosexual male partners, fulfilling their need > for a second licensed pilot, and for a way for them to legally be around > that homophobic in addition to misogynistic part of space. The regions > allows polyandry, though it's unusual, but not homosexual marriage. Not quite. "They {same-sex marriages} don't bring full citizenship" and Chase Mago needs Delian travel documents since he is currently using forged ones. [F-ToH ch 2] I only realized recently that Baen brought out the Roads of Heaven Trilogy (recommended) since I have GB editions (VGSF). F-ToH isn't Melissa Scott's first novel though, that is _The Game Beyond_ (Baen 1984) which I have just added to my collection together with _Mighty Good Road_. Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From jessybrody at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 22:50:32 2005 From: jessybrody at gmail.com (Jessy Brody) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:50:32 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tamora Pierce Message-ID: Me: [...] > Yeah, Tamora Pierce in middle school . Not what I'd call > masterful prose. Mistressful. Magistral? Omnivorous and voracious > reader that I was, it took me quite some time to develop taste and Little Egret: >If you were required to read Tamora Pierce in middle school you might try some of her later work. I recommend the recent "Circle opens" set Magic Steps, Street Magic, Cold Fire, Shatterglass. Me: No, not required. I was wincing bc I used to be obsessed with them and now wonder why. I guess my taste changed. A lot. Yeah, I read Magic Steps and Street Magic, actually prefer her earlier stuff, as far *that* goes. I read Squire, just bc I wanted to know what happened to Keladry next. And I guess I'll read Knight eventually, too, just out of curiosity. I read and reread Pierce's books set in Tortall so often in middle school that I might as well invest a little more time. But I could never drum up much interest in that other series, Circle of Magic, just liked the ideas and characters in her other books more. Though it might be a good example of a scenario where men and women are considered equal, but there's a great deal of prejudice among social groups ie merchants, those wandering traders whatever they were called, etc. But thanks for the link. Nice to see her books finally have nice(r) covers. Even at the height of my obsession, I didn't like the covers of those paperbacks. JLB -- Welcome to Triage -Kurt Vonnegut He was never noisy and lacked the dogmatism of the insecure -written of George Orwell --------________--------________-------- From ginni.berger at juno.com Sun Mar 6 01:10:42 2005 From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:10:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Heinlein Message-ID: <20050305.203334.2916.7.ginni.berger@juno.com> On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:58:15 EST CatMtn at aol.com writes: > Ginnilee writes about Heinlein: > > The bad news is that > he was still a product of > his time and culture, and his women had a tendency to be superwomen > "The > females on Ganymede would have the chicken killed, plucking , and > cooking > before an Earthside girl would've stopped screaming" -- > paraphrased out of > Farmer in the Sky. > > M: > > That's actually a pretty common "country vs. city" attitude, and it > is still > found in rural areas. It's expressed by women, too. > > Mary > -- Twasn't me who said that. ;-) I don't remember who said that. Ginnilee Lady Lavender of Teal --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Sun Mar 6 01:13:37 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 20:13:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James In-Reply-To: <00d201c5213d$a7511e00$0100a8c0@heaviside> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050304184055.02979d60@pop.lunainternet.net> <4228D734.9040909@earthlink.net> <005901c5212c$a6091d60$0100a8c0@heaviside> <422937E4.8090703@earthlink.net> <00d201c5213d$a7511e00$0100a8c0@heaviside> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050305201113.034e0820@pop.east.cox.net> At 23:41 03/04/2005, Paula Lieberman wrote: >That's Durgin-Park, the place that begrudgingly allowed electric lights >in... used to make hidebound Barrayarans look like progressives! Some of >its recipes are probably much that same that they were a couple hundred >years ago! > >The area in the vicinity has majorly changed--the central artery is -down-. >The traffic patterns are majorly different. Etc. When I went there (late 1957, or Jan 1958), the area was still a fish market. The food sure was good. You got the next available empty seat, as I remember; I don't remember any surliness on the part of the wait staff. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From sfolse at cepheid.org Sun Mar 6 04:21:49 2005 From: sfolse at cepheid.org (Stephanie Folse) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:21:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Brust In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050305222100.P91161@idoru.cepheid.org> On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Jessy Brody wrote: > It was more that while I was interested in knowing what would > eventually happen, I wasn't interested in actually reading all of > Brust's prose. He changes storytelling style for each book in that series, too. :) --Stephanie --------________--------________-------- From sfolse at cepheid.org Sun Mar 6 04:23:18 2005 From: sfolse at cepheid.org (Stephanie Folse) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:23:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Brust In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050305222226.C91161@idoru.cepheid.org> On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Jessy Brody wrote: > Me: > Maybe the rabid fans are just being polite? I'm a rabid fan who udnerstands that other people are rabod fans of other thngs, and not necessarily my perosnal faves. :) --Stephanie --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sun Mar 6 04:55:53 2005 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:55:53 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Math, sex, gengineering OT: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050306045553.GA26963@ofb.net> On Sat, Mar 05, 2005 at 04:45:33PM +0000, Jessy Brody wrote: > for the novelty. And of course there's now that debate on whether > women are the equals of men in science and math, and if not then > whether the gap is due to nature or nurture ... Sudden thought: Suppose it became accepted that there were a basic difference between males and females in math ability, in that the male average would be a noticeable fraction of a standard deviation better than the female average, even with similar education and encouragement. And it were understood how this happens, and could be altered without "turning females into males" in a broad way. Would people be more accepting of genetic engineering or cognitive boosting drugs (nootropics)? -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sun Mar 6 05:10:38 2005 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:10:38 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: A Younger take on Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050306051038.GB26963@ofb.net> On Sat, Mar 05, 2005 at 05:39:19PM +0000, Jessy Brody wrote: > >Short response: Contemplate "and be more convincing if their male leads > >are also strong, masculine, and manly, as well as heroic." > > > >-xx- Damien X-) > > Me: > Um, I don't think Damien was looking for examples of manly heroes Yep, I wasn't asking for examples at all. Don't see how anyone got that interpretation. It was a rhetorical question. > feminine as well as heroic'. I *think* what Damien was getting at was > that 'heroic' and 'manly' by implication have overlapping meanings > (traditionally): a real man is brave and heroic, a heroic person who > is male is by definition manly. Whereas a womanly, feminine woman may > be, in addition to those qualities, heroic. Damien seems to be > pointing out that, traditionally, womanliness and heroism do not Yeah, something like that. More precisely, the guy I was responding to had setup feminine and womanly as a contrast to heroic, and I wanted to turn that around to make people think. My prediction of his getting jumped on seemed to not come true, though. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From vanlook at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 05:14:25 2005 From: vanlook at yahoo.com (BJ van Look) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:14:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] A Genius Explains In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050306051425.31453.qmail@web30306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> it really makes me wonder if savant-ness is an aspect of synaesthesia.... --- "Marty L. Adkins" wrote: > A very fascinating article.... > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,,1409903,00.html > > Jerrie > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > BJ van Look vanlook (at) yahoo (dot) com Published on the Sugar Quill! http://www.sugarquill.net/read.php?storyid=1945&chapno=1 Jacobite, Smithereen, Rickmaniac and Donut Filker, SCAdian, Nova Roman Bujold junkie and part-time pusher Speaking only for myself and my evil twin Skippy. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sun Mar 6 05:35:32 2005 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:35:32 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Other Authors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050306053532.GC26963@ofb.net> On Sat, Mar 05, 2005 at 05:57:51PM +0000, Jessy Brody wrote: > decade or 20 years or something bc I'd read them *so many* times as a > child not taken to the library often enough and had read all the Tangent: why I like cities. Kids can walk to the library and take public transit to museums. End tangent. > I know some ppl, including Tolkien fans (the kind that were fans > before the films), like what Peter Jackson did well enough, but I have > developed a severe aversion somehow. And now, thinking back to I found much to grumble about coming out of the first movie. (I *did* read the Silmarillion, and more.) Some people came out of the second movie grumbling, I listended, and decided not to see the second or third. > Tolkien's prose-style esp in most of Return of the King, I wonder how > I became such a fan, esp starting at the tender age of 8 or 9. I don't I know a girl here who read LotR at 8. I don't remember my age, but I figure 4th grade, tops. Largely because I think it was then that my class was required to memorize something to recite in front of the class, and I picked Gimli's chant in Moria from Fellowship. "The world was young, the mountains green". I get defensive when people trash JRRT's poetry. :) > think I could become a Tolkienite now. I'm not a huge purist, I think > _Bored of the Rings_ and Cassandra Claire's online 'The Very Secret > Diaries' (slash) are funny, I just have a prejudice against Those Bored became boring for me fast. I think I read the Diaries, at least up a point. The Molly Ringwraith takes were good, though. (And didn't encourage me to see the movies!) > the mainstream on a number of issues. But I don't want to think about > politics. I'd like to stop reading the newspapers, but there are I was a news junkie as a kid -- well, we ate dinner watching the MacNeil-Lehrer NewsHours; I watched Iran-Contra live, age 11. In college I snapped. Now I try to keep up with the basics; my.yahoo's AP and Reuters feeds are useful, I scan the headlines and read a bit. news.google would work too, but I'm less consistent. But if I think or talk about it too much my stress goes up. > If I'm eating, I want something to read to, and ... Cereal boxes! > deleting most of them. You could form a new version of Six Degrees > from Kevin Bacon based on conversational topics and the ability of a > lateral thinker to jump from one to another in the space of a Yeah, my best friend and I would have these wonderfully rambling conversations in college and I'd sometimes pause and wonder "hey, we were talking about P, how did we get to W?" Sometimes we could reconstruct the path or even unwind our stacks, oftennot. -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sun Mar 6 05:39:46 2005 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:39:46 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <422A0036.BC50682F@erols.com> References: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> <42289139.52EF8FD@erols.com> <189f01c520f6$5710f560$0100a8c0@heaviside> <422A0036.BC50682F@erols.com> Message-ID: <20050306053946.GD26963@ofb.net> On Sat, Mar 05, 2005 at 01:53:42PM -0500, Alexandra Haropulos wrote: > the US are now women. The bad news about women escaping the > nursing ghetto is that the quality of nursing care has > declined dramatically - a bright woman interested in > medicine is more likely to become an MD. I've heard that suggested about teaching as well. Women used to not have many choices beyond teaching and nursing, so there was a captive labor supply. Then they Got Out. Though an economics text had a different theory for what it called "the cost disease of the service sector": productivity in manufacturing goes up much faster than productivity in services; wages in services get dragged up somewhat by manufacturing, making providing the services basically more expensive. > They are running the planetary infrastructure at a much > higher level than that at which it would be run if the > brilliant and bright were allowed to escape. Speaking as an They're running it without fair market compensation, more precisely, as Paula or someone noted. > there were 20 years ago, but I think that is for the same > reason there are fewer women engineering graduates than Any idea what that reason it? -xx- Damien X-) --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Sun Mar 6 05:42:18 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 00:42:18 -0500 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050304184055.02979d60@pop.lunainternet.net> <4228D734.9040909@earthlink.net> <005901c5212c$a6091d60$0100a8c0@heaviside> <422937E4.8090703@earthlink.net> <00d201c5213d$a7511e00$0100a8c0@heaviside> <6.2.0.14.2.20050305201113.034e0820@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <036301c5220f$4356c120$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter H. Granzeau" > At 23:41 03/04/2005, Paula Lieberman wrote: > > >That's Durgin-Park, the place that begrudgingly allowed electric lights > >in... used to make hidebound Barrayarans look like progressives! Some of > >its recipes are probably much that same that they were a couple hundred > >years ago! > > > >The area in the vicinity has majorly changed--the central artery is -down-. > >The traffic patterns are majorly different. Etc. > > When I went there (late 1957, or Jan 1958), the area was still a fish That was quite a while ago! The area is -very- different now, Quincy Market is all very upscale and touristy and surrounded by office buildings and some hotels, you were there pre-Government Center and Boston City Hall, and the fellow who was the head of the Boston Redevelopment Association. The skyline was devoid of anything taller than the old Custom Tower building back then... that changed, massively... > market. The food sure was good. You got the next available empty seat, as > I remember; I don't remember any surliness on the part of the wait staff. Sometimes it needed to be provoked. I did seen a waitress threaten a customer with a water pitcher, she threatened to pour water over him. Sometimes customers DID get stuff spilled nonaccidentally on them... --------________--------________-------- From mtraber251 at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 06:54:18 2005 From: mtraber251 at earthlink.net (M. Traber) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 01:54:18 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Heinlein In-Reply-To: <126.58212452.2f5b6957@aol.com> References: <126.58212452.2f5b6957@aol.com> Message-ID: <422AA91A.3030700@earthlink.net> CatMtn at aol.com wrote: > > That's actually a pretty common "country vs. city" attitude, and it is still > found in rural areas. It's expressed by women, too. > > Mary I always agreed with RH that a woman should be able to do all sorts of things, he lists kill and clean and cook an animal, saddle and ride, make a saddle, basic carpentry, basic sewing, basic leatherwork, shoot a gun, is in one of the methusleah stories [the one where they go to the isolated valley and end up killing 3 guys who showed up planning on robbing them] I can kill, clean and cook, ride and *train* equines [now cant ride because of back=(] do basic first aid, sew, do leathework including brain or tannic acid tanning, I have made a saddle from a kit, so i have a rough idea how to make a basic stock saddle, i *am* a machinist, and can make a lathe medieval style using a treadle to make it spin, I now know the basics of blacksmithing thanks to my farrieress roomie=), I can make a simple loom from scratch, i can process clay from clay bank to raku fired ceramic, I can make and use a drop spindle, I know how to care for and shear sheeps, make soap from ashes, water and animal fat, I know how to extract dyes from woad, cochineal and assorted natural herbs. I try to keep learning, i have this fear that if i stop learning i will end up with alzheimers because my brain wont be accustomed to making new connections=( -- -- For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling --------________--------________-------- From cessnadriver at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 06:45:47 2005 From: cessnadriver at gmail.com (James) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:45:47 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Gmail invites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3b8ab98e05030522453b41f902@mail.gmail.com> OTOH, I did get an email from Google the other day saying I could sign up for Gmail now without having to be invited (I added myself to the list of people who wanted to get Gmail when it was announced but not officially "open"). I guess they're just throwing the doors wide open now. --------________--------________-------- From mtraber251 at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 06:59:11 2005 From: mtraber251 at earthlink.net (M. Traber) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 01:59:11 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <020501c521bf$b5c84bc0$0100a8c0@heaviside> References: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> <42289139.52EF8FD@erols.com> <189f01c520f6$5710f560$0100a8c0@heaviside> <422A0036.BC50682F@erols.com> <020501c521bf$b5c84bc0$0100a8c0@heaviside> Message-ID: <422AAA3F.6070002@earthlink.net> Paula Lieberman wrote: > LaHaye, Shflaly, and Elaine Donnelly They can take a flying f*ck at a rolling doughnut as far as I am concerned ... *nobody* tells me to stay at home as a baby factory/slave. -- -- For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling --------________--------________-------- From mdbrazier2 at aol.com Sun Mar 6 08:32:15 2005 From: mdbrazier2 at aol.com (Michael Brazier) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 02:32:15 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Math, sex, gengineering OT: In-Reply-To: <20050306045553.GA26963@ofb.net> References: <20050306045553.GA26963@ofb.net> Message-ID: <422AC00F.6040507@aol.com> Damien Sullivan wrote: > > Suppose it became accepted that there were a basic difference between males > and females in math ability, in that the male average would be a noticeable > fraction of a standard deviation better than the female average, even with > similar education and encouragement. And it were understood how this happens, > and could be altered without "turning females into males" in a broad way. > Would people be more accepting of genetic engineering or cognitive boosting > drugs (nootropics)? It may be worth mentioning that (to the best of my knowledge) the difference between men and women in mathematical ability is in the variance, not the mean -- there are more geniuses, and more idiots, in the male population than in the female. Suppose it were understood how _this_ worked, and could be altered without, etc. ... would people be willing to do so, either to increase the variation, or to decrease it? Assume also that altering the mean isn't possible. --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at luna.co.uk Sun Mar 6 10:19:48 2005 From: jbryant at luna.co.uk (jbryant at luna.co.uk) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:19:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [LMB] Abbreviations (WAS OT: Heinlein) Message-ID: <3197187932jbryant@luna.co.uk> Jessy Brody asks:- >...Does it irritate that I always use 'esp', 'bc' >and 'ppl' instead of 'especially', 'because' and 'people'? We are not limited to 168 character SMS packets on this list. Think of Miles on "Ekaterin" v "Kat" in Komarr. (I can't quote - I'm in Gdansk and my electronic Komarr is at home. Anyone?) James - on the road in the snow and freezing fog --------________--------________-------- From billie_t at fastmail.fm Sun Mar 6 10:36:55 2005 From: billie_t at fastmail.fm (Tracy MacShane) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 21:36:55 +1100 Subject: [LMB] Abbreviations OT: In-Reply-To: <3197187932jbryant@luna.co.uk> References: <3197187932jbryant@luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <1110105415.30649.216662022@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:19:48 +0000 (GMT), jbryant at luna.co.uk said: > Jessy Brody asks:- > > >...Does it irritate that I always use 'esp', 'bc' > >and 'ppl' instead of 'especially', 'because' and 'people'? > > We are not limited to 168 character SMS packets on this list. > > [snip reasonably irrelevant example, as I believe we should address people by the names they give us, which has nothing to do with abbreviated *words*]. I'm with Alex H on this one... :-) English has a long history of using abbreviations, even in fairly formal writing, such as in the 18th century, when signing a letter: "...Your humble servant, etc., ", for latin tags (who writes out "et cetera" or "id est"?) and so on. So, when it's clear - I wouldn't want every other word to be an abbreviation - I don't see what's wrong with using them in this sort of communication. Tracy --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Sun Mar 6 13:09:29 2005 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 08:09:29 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein References: <126.58212452.2f5b6957@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050305143102.05989b60@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <422B0109.7C500762@erols.com> Debbie wrote: > Heinlein's expectations of men were just as high. Remember the list of > things a man "should" be able to do from "The Notebooks of Lazarus > Long." He expected *everybody* to be superpeople. Once upon a time, John Campbell wrote an editorial on how he was continually being criticised for publishing stories about heroes. He said, briefly, that no-one wants to read about Joe Schmudlap, and that writing about heroes has been considered an important educational tool for 3000 years. Where else do people learn to aspire to be better (in the broadband sense of better, as opposed to civic better or secular better or any of the narrowband betters)? Cordelia, Aral and Miles serve as an inspiration to everyone in their District and in some cases the whole Imperium. Ivan, while he has his virtues, inspires no-one. One of the things that I learned from Cordelia was that he who keeps his temper longest often wins. This has been a hard one for me (the genetic Scot, who seems to have an instinctual urge to solve every problem with hot words and cold steel). --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Sun Mar 6 13:21:50 2005 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 08:21:50 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: References: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> <42289139.52EF8FD@erols.com> <189f01c520f6$5710f560$0100a8c0@heaviside> <5.1.0.14.2.20050305132534.05974f88@mail.bellsouth.net> <024301c521c9$36e3f7a0$0100a8c0@heaviside> Message-ID: <422B03EE.B149E82E@erols.com> Paula Lieberman wrote: > > Women who are capable of becoming combat pilots tend to be much better > than > > men. However, few women are capable of passing the requisite tests. It's > > one of the few places where a distinct biological-based difference in the > > majority of men vs. the majority of women can be noticed. I didn't write that. There are a number of women currently serving as military pilots who are doing extremely well in combat aircraft, both fixed and rotary wing, and who have served, and been shot down, in combat. A number of women have sucessfully passed Navy pilot school with flying colors, unlike that one goat who failed several key tests and was still allowed to drop a plane into the drink off a carrier (your tax dollar at work). --------________--------________-------- From mathews55 at msn.com Sun Mar 6 13:27:48 2005 From: mathews55 at msn.com (PAT MATHEWS) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 06:27:48 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Math, sex, gengineering OT: In-Reply-To: <422AC00F.6040507@aol.com> Message-ID: >From: Michael Brazier > >Damien Sullivan wrote: >> >>Suppose it became accepted that there were a basic difference between >>males >>and females in math ability, in that the male average would be a >>noticeable >>fraction of a standard deviation better than the female average, even with >>similar education and encouragement. > >Suppose it were understood how _this_ worked, and could be altered without, >etc. ... would people be willing to do so, either to increase the >variation, or to decrease it? Assume also that altering the mean isn't >possible. >-- Question: why alter the mean? Simply say "Here are the standards; all men and women who meet tham are welcome?" This will irritate those on either side of this idea: on one hand, those who think "there are more math geniuses among men than among women so I will not even look at the women" and those who think "But that means the numbers aren't equal and that's not fair!" To both I say "Phooey. You're both talking through your hats." Pat, who tried, failed, and accepted it with good grace. --------________--------________-------- From mathews55 at msn.com Sun Mar 6 13:29:44 2005 From: mathews55 at msn.com (PAT MATHEWS) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 06:29:44 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <422AAA3F.6070002@earthlink.net> Message-ID: >From: "M. Traber" >> >Paula Lieberman wrote: > > LaHaye, Shflaly, and Elaine Donnelly > >They can take a flying f*ck at a rolling doughnut as far as I am concerned >... *nobody* tells me to stay at home as a baby factory/slave. > As far as I'm concerned, they're as silly as the people who claim that Adam walked among the dinosaurs. Giggle and ignore. And check out the forcibly-retired televangelist in THE HANDMAID'S TALE (which culture probably lasted less than 100 years). Pat --------________--------________-------- From adamek at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 14:19:44 2005 From: adamek at gmail.com (Adam Ek) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:19:44 -0500 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050304184055.02979d60@pop.lunainternet.net> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050304184055.02979d60@pop.lunainternet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:54:28 +0000, James M. BRYANT, G4CLF wrote: > Are MiniLoisCons OT: or NOT: ? ... > I will also be in ... Boston 30 April - 8 May Ailsa & I would love to host another MiniLoisCon/Indian Dinner sometime that week. The first weekend (4/30-5/1) could be a little awkward because it's the last two days of Passover. Wednesdays we have a class in the evening. Monday, Tuesday, or Thursday evening would be best for us to host. Saturday night (7 May) or anytime Sunday (8 May) would be fine if someone else is hosting. -- Adam Ek adamek at gmail.com --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Sun Mar 6 16:02:15 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 11:02:15 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Gmail invites In-Reply-To: <3b8ab98e05030522453b41f902@mail.gmail.com> References: <3b8ab98e05030522453b41f902@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050306110150.034e91d0@pop.east.cox.net> Okay. I give up. WTH is Gmail, and why should I care? At 01:45 03/06/2005, James wrote: >OTOH, I did get an email from Google the other day saying I could sign >up for Gmail now without having to be invited (I added myself to the >list of people who wanted to get Gmail when it was announced but not >officially "open"). I guess they're just throwing the doors wide open >now. >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From brashley46 at tfnet.ca Sun Mar 6 16:13:50 2005 From: brashley46 at tfnet.ca (B. Ross Ashley) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 11:13:50 -0500 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Heinlein Message-ID: <422B2C3E.3040604@tfnet.ca> On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:51:51 +0000, Jessy Brody wrote: > Alex H: >> The bad news about women escaping the >>> nursing ghetto is that the quality of nursing care has >>> declined dramatically - a bright woman interested in >>> medicine is more likely to become an MD. >>> Speaking as an >>> escapee, I'm not complaining; as a social observer I have to >>> be appalled at the effect.) > >> Could the answer possibly be immigration? Dunno if I'm being > >> sarcastic or serious. > >> JLB > Well. Speaking as an employee of a Canadian teaching hospital affiliated with a school of nursing, all I can say is you're due for a flood of second-generation Filipina-Canadian RNs. Seriously, we train lots of RNs, and they do seem to be welcome South of the Lakes. We never seem to have enough left, especially since the hospitals seem to want to move to the BSN as qualification. -- B. Ross Ashley www.livejournal.com/users/brashley46/ http://brashley46.no-ip.info "You cannot conquer evil, Nukurren. Evil is not a thing from beyond, a foe to be vanquished. It is a thing which emerges from within the life of a people. It can only be changed, by changing that life." - Eric Flint, in "Mother of Demons" --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0509-5, 04/03/2005 Tested on: 06/03/2005 11:13:58 AM avast! - copyright (c) 2000-2004 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com --------________--------________-------- From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Sun Mar 6 16:14:22 2005 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 11:14:22 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Meaning of Agyar in Magyar Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.1.20050306111258.02d46dd0@pop.mindspring.com> Our resident expert speaks up. Hi, Susan! It's good to see you posting again. Can I get you to re-post your phonetic insights into additional meanings Lois' character names might have, based on Magyar? It was way cool, & we've had lots of new folks since then, who haven't gotten to read it. Thanks! Jerrie --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at luna.co.uk Sun Mar 6 16:35:39 2005 From: jbryant at luna.co.uk (jbryant at luna.co.uk) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:35:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [LMB] Prayers Please OT: Message-ID: <8498456356jbryant@luna.co.uk> Sarah (Ook!) the Librarian of the Bryant Books has just heard that her mother has quite advanced cancer of the pancreas. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Sun Mar 6 16:51:07 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:51:07 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: References: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> <42289139.52EF8FD@erols.com> <189f01c520f6$5710f560$0100a8c0@heaviside> <5.1.0.14.2.20050305132534.05974f88@mail.bellsouth.net> <024301c521c9$36e3f7a0$0100a8c0@heaviside> <422B03EE.B149E82E@erols.com> Message-ID: <04a501c5226c$b1be0580$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandra Haropulos" > Paula Lieberman wrote: > > > > Women who are capable of becoming combat pilots tend to be much better > > than > > > men. However, few women are capable of passing the requisite tests. It's > > > one of the few places where a distinct biological-based difference in the > > > majority of men vs. the majority of women can be noticed. > > I didn't write that. > > There are a number of women currently serving as military > pilots who are doing extremely well in combat aircraft, both > fixed and rotary wing, and who have served, and been shot > down, in combat. A number of women have sucessfully passed > Navy pilot school with flying colors, unlike that one goat That was calumny from Elaine Donnelly. Lots of MALE pilots miss carrier decks and lose airplanes. There was a book that came out written by women who'd been in the military who countered the calumny, but Donnelly has the rightwing screed machine behind her and is held up at an Authority. > who failed several key tests and was still allowed to drop a > plane into the drink off a carrier (your tax dollar at > work). And drunk male pilots have done the same thing, and there there were those old stories in Playboy years ago about male pilots coming in for carrier landing in an, er, statement of high excitement and then bliss.... --------________--------________-------- From mtraber251 at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 17:09:30 2005 From: mtraber251 at earthlink.net (M. Traber) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 12:09:30 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Math, sex, gengineering OT: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <422B394A.1060909@earthlink.net> I favor a nurture not nature theory where you have to have it naturally BUT nurture can control the persons USAGE... I have been told that previous to grade 4 I was exceptionally good at math. I have no doubt this is true. The main thing I can remember about math in elementary school is moving from a school system where you learned multiplication, division, percents and fractions in 4th grade to one where they were learned in third grade [yay army=\] and all that first month [in america *generally* the first month of school is spent reviewing the last years bits] I was abused by the teacher for refusing to do my schoolwork, being obstructive when called on in class and derided as an idiot. It never freaking occurred to the b*tch that I may not have known the information because of the difference in schooling...and being brand freaking new in class, I was overwhelmed and VERY shy, and probably it never occurred to me to speak out and say that I didnt know the information. It took my mother getting *FINALLY* called in to be talked to and her noting that I was never taught that crap to finally get some remedial teaching...but pretty much ever since then I did the least possible math I could get away with, and resisted learning new things... However, if that b*tch had never treated me like that - who knows *what* I could have become. Keep in mind I took calculus without algebra/trig or geometry and passed it...[mistake by a new school in scheduling my classes, they didnt have my records and just assumed I had already taken algebra/trig and geometry...] and I learned the sliderule and used it to pass AP chemistry...and apparently reinvented chisenbop* [or a variant of it] without ever knowing about it already being extant as a crutch to do simple math... *Chisenbop os using the fingers of both hands as an abacus to do addition and subtraction very quickly. http://klingon.cs.iupui.edu/~aharris/chis/chis.html main difference is i changed left for right... -- -- For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Sun Mar 6 17:00:52 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:00:52 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: References: Message-ID: <04ac01c5226e$0ea4b770$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "PAT MATHEWS" > >From: "M. Traber" > >> > >Paula Lieberman wrote: > > > LaHaye, Shflaly, and Elaine Donnelly > > > >They can take a flying f*ck at a rolling doughnut as far as I am concerned > >... *nobody* tells me to stay at home as a baby factory/slave. > > > As far as I'm concerned, they're as silly as the people who claim that Adam > walked among the dinosaurs. Giggle and ignore. And check out the But it's not "silly" when the consequences are denail of opportunity with extreme prejudice, based on gender, skin color, height, creed, etc. It both blocks the opportunities to the "most qualified" based on the abilities as opposed to "I want someone who looks like me, or who isn't threatening -my- superior position!" [the person who handpicks subordinates who are toadies and who can't replace the boss when the boss retires/leaves otherwise, or who is a Queen Bee who wants if female no other women around or the equivalent for other groups "I LIKE being the only... in this place, it makes me SPECIAL!"] and blocks the organization from considering a lot of talents, competent people--and harms both the people never given the opportunitues and who are stuck in positions that don't allow them to use their talents in ways they want to use them and feel worthwhile in, and harms the organization which are putting in lesserly qualified and competent people because they won't offer/give worthwhile positions to people in the groups they are so prejudiced against. > forcibly-retired televangelist in THE HANDMAID'S TALE (which culture > probably lasted less than 100 years). --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Sun Mar 6 17:04:45 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:04:45 -0500 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050304184055.02979d60@pop.lunainternet.net> Message-ID: <04bc01c5226e$b191b370$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Ek" > On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:54:28 +0000, James M. BRYANT, G4CLF > wrote: > > Are MiniLoisCons OT: or NOT: ? > ... > > I will also be in ... Boston 30 April - 8 May > > Ailsa & I would love to host another MiniLoisCon/Indian Dinner > sometime that week. > > The first weekend (4/30-5/1) could be a little awkward because it's > the last two days of Passover. Wednesdays we have a class in the > evening. Monday, Tuesday, or Thursday evening would be best for us to > host. Saturday night (7 May) or anytime Sunday (8 May) would be fine > if someone else is hosting. May 8 is the NESFA Annual meeting. --------________--------________-------- From tora.smulders at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 17:12:32 2005 From: tora.smulders at gmail.com (Tora K. Smulders-Srinivasan) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:12:32 +0000 Subject: Heinlein was Re: [LMB] Book club questions (moving OT:) In-Reply-To: <20050304101532.R98332@shell.rawbw.com> References: <200503032203.WAA26601@talia3.herald.co.uk> <015e01c52044$b14548e0$69261aac@JaneWork> <42285B9D.CF04B24@erols.com> <20050304101532.R98332@shell.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <4afcc1280503060912597a0e08@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:17:08 -0800 (PST), Azalais Malfoy wrote: (about The Number of the Beast) > I liked it, I just don't like it as much as I liked SiaSL or Time > Enough for Love. But it was a lot of fun. I like all the late > Heinleins that nobody supposedly likes. I don't particularly > agree with some of his worldview, but they're fun. > > ~malfoy :) Yeah, me too! Actually, I like most of the Heinleins I've read, though some interest me less than others. I actually started with _The Number of the Beast_ in my early teens and loved it -- and read all the rest I could find in the library. Of course, always having had a one-track mind, the frank discussion of s*x appealed to my very sheltered young adult self and the fact that it was all science fiction just added to the appeal! And all of this discussion has just reminded me it was time for a reread, so thanks to you all, I'm reading _The Number of the Beast_ and loving it as much as ever. One of the things I enjoy most is the constant back and forth arguing of the characters. Very enjoyable. Oh, and I've never noticed his portrayal of women in any negative way. But then again, I do the "suspension of disbelief" very easily for "ancient" writers, which includes gender attitudes as much as scientific advances. I mostly pay attention to the interesting characters and good story and very rarely analyze what I'm reading anyway. I just enjoy. Though joining this list and from here, others, has gotten me doing that more than I ever did. But only usually the books under discussion. -Tora --------________--------________-------- From ginni.berger at juno.com Sun Mar 6 17:20:15 2005 From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:20:15 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Prayers Please OT: Message-ID: <20050306.122337.3652.3.ginni.berger@juno.com> On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:35:39 +0000 (GMT) jbryant at luna.co.uk writes: > Sarah (Ook!) the Librarian of the Bryant Books > has just heard that her mother has quite advanced > cancer of the pancreas. > -- She's in our prayers. <> Ginnilee Lady Lavender of Teal --------________--------________-------- From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Sun Mar 6 17:33:12 2005 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (Marty L. Adkins) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 12:33:12 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Imperial Archives? Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.1.20050306122926.02d35040@pop.mindspring.com> From listie Ann Neff: About 650 recordings of people all over the country - a fascinating resource! And all the other collections! A lovely, lovely site to spend hours in. http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/collections/ Do you reckon they have anything like this on Barrayar? Jerrie --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Sun Mar 6 18:37:17 2005 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 13:37:17 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: References: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> <42289139.52EF8FD@erols.com> <189f01c520f6$5710f560$0100a8c0@heaviside> <5.1.0.14.2.20050305132534.05974f88@mail.bellsouth.net> <024301c521c9$36e3f7a0$0100a8c0@heaviside> <422B03EE.B149E82E@erols.com> <04a501c5226c$b1be0580$0100a8c0@heaviside> Message-ID: <422B4DDD.60FDFEE7@erols.com> Paula Lieberman wrote: > From: "Alexandra Haropulos" > > There are a number of women currently serving as military > > pilots who are doing extremely well in combat aircraft, both > > fixed and rotary wing, and who have served, and been shot > > down, in combat. A number of women have sucessfully passed > > Navy pilot school with flying colors, unlike that one goat > > That was calumny from Elaine Donnelly. Elaine Donnelly and her outfit weren't even around when the incident occurred. The reports that I read on the subject (none of them official - no "need to know") clearly stated what her test scores were in the various schools, and statements from instructors who say they were ordered to pass her. While the scores have never been formally published, some of the anger around her lack of qualifications came from people who SUPPORT women combat pilots, INCLUDING OTHER WOMEN COMBAT PILOTS. > Lots of MALE pilots miss carrier > decks and lose airplanes. > And drunk male pilots have done the same thing, and there there were those > old stories in Playboy years ago about male pilots coming in for carrier > landing in an, er, statement of high excitement and then bliss.... I was a member of the Naval Institute for a number of years, when I was working on shipboard weapons systems. Once a year the _Proceedings_ would publish a list of Navy accidents resulting in death, and also summary reports on the causes of aircraft crashes. Male pilots come up with a number of charming ways to destroy expensive aircraft and sometimes themselves. Many of them have to do with more guts than brains, incompetence ("his daddy is an admiral, pass him), "diminished capacity", the need to get hours regardless of appropriate conditions, and the odd unrecoverable equipment failure. Then there is the fact that the job is inherently risky in ways that cannot currently be eliminated. I think we're actually in violent agreement here. We both agree that women need the encouragement, opportunity, and challenges to grow. My issue is that inappropriate lowering of standards (versus irrelevant ones like pushups for pilots who fly by wire) doesn't make us look good, or perform better at the actual task. Yes, people need to have the chance to try and fail. There are lots of places short of the front line to do this. Although one of the interesting and appalling things about actual warfare is how many geniuses turn up out of nowhere (Sergeant York - what he did was not just courageous, it was brilliant) and how many senior professionals with credentials fail like stink (McClellan). --------________--------________-------- From tlambs1138 at charter.net Mon Mar 7 02:19:44 2005 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:19:44 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Double Star References: <200503040754.HAA29782@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <007201c522bc$215ff520$9bebbe42@Samantha> I've always thought it would be interesting to make Double Star as a movie with Michael Douglas as Lorenzo Smythe (or Larry Smith) and Kirk Douglas as the politico he's impersonating, of whom we see only pictures and videos (Michael Douglas again) till Joseph Bonforte (there! I knew the name would show up!) is rescued _after_ his stroke. The resemblance between the two could easily increase as Michael Douglas is 'aged'. Both are superb actors, and damn! Kirk would be such a _lion_ as Bonforte with the stroke. Jean Lamb, tlambs1138 at charter.net "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you are crunchy and good with lemon drops." --------________--------________-------- From debsabriel at earthlink.net Mon Mar 7 02:31:34 2005 From: debsabriel at earthlink.net (Debra Cebulski) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:31:34 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [LMB] Prayers Please OT: Message-ID: <29512296.1110162694930.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlin k.net> James, my thoughts and prayers are with your librarian at this difficult time. Best regards, Deb Cebulski -----Original Message----- From: jbryant at luna.co.uk Sent: Mar 6, 2005 11:35 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] Prayers Please OT: Sarah (Ook!) the Librarian of the Bryant Books has just heard that her mother has quite advanced cancer of the pancreas. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Mon Mar 7 02:52:59 2005 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:52:59 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Gmail invites In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050306110150.034e91d0@pop.east.cox.net> References: <3b8ab98e05030522453b41f902@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050306110150.034e91d0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <20050307025259.GC13769@fireopal.org> On Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 11:02:15AM -0500, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > Okay. I give up. WTH is Gmail, and why should I care? Webmail from Google. You get something like 10GB of space, nice threading, and Google's search engine usable against your inbox. You're the only person who is allowed to search your personal mail. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Mon Mar 7 02:54:19 2005 From: jparish at siue.edu (Jim Parish) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 20:54:19 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Double Star In-Reply-To: <007201c522bc$215ff520$9bebbe42@Samantha> Message-ID: <422B6DFB.12316.2417F5B@localhost> Jean Lamb wrote: > I've always thought it would be interesting to make Double Star as a movie > with Michael Douglas as Lorenzo Smythe (or Larry Smith) and Kirk Douglas as > the politico he's impersonating, of whom we see only pictures and videos > (Michael Douglas again) till Joseph Bonforte (there! I knew the name would > show up!) is rescued _after_ his stroke. The resemblance between the two > could easily increase as Michael Douglas is 'aged'. Both are superb actors, > and damn! Kirk would be such a _lion_ as Bonforte with the stroke. Wow. That would be magnificent. (If, that is, Hollywood didn't screw it up. They'd probably turn Bonforte into the heroic leader of Earth against the slimy and evil Martians...) Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From tinne at eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 03:11:23 2005 From: tinne at eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:11:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: More Magyar Message-ID: >What's the Hungarian for 'Thanks, that's very good to know'? ; ) (rhetorical) Well, you wouldn't say it exactly like that. And the information was wrong anyway, but: Ko:szo:no:m Sze'pen is thank you very much - the colons are representations of the umlauts above the o's and it sounds like the i in girl. Jo' tudoma'sa van vmro""l Means 'Good to be aware of.' The "" indicates a loooonger Umlaut that sounds more like giurl vowel sound. Rhetorical? Flips through the dictionary..... 'retorikai' or' szo'noki' depending on how formal the relationship is. Susan in Kent aka Profitne' Zsuzsa --------________--------________-------- From sraun at fireopal.org Mon Mar 7 03:17:51 2005 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:17:51 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Any listies in Toronto? Message-ID: <20050307031751.GD13769@fireopal.org> http://www.viceversa.com/Dynamic/Products,intCategoryID,34,intItemID,1447.html Anyone live in / near Toronto? Viceversa apparently has a store in Markham - my wife would really like one of these, and we can't find anywhere to order one. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org --------________--------________-------- From WaWenri at aol.com Mon Mar 7 03:58:14 2005 From: WaWenri at aol.com (WaWenri at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 22:58:14 EST Subject: [LMB] Math, sex, gengineering OT: Message-ID: <145.40ff482a.2f5d2b56@aol.com> Damien Sullivan writes: <> The data suggest that there is a very small difference in the mean (average) ability of men and women in most areas. (How come no one seems to mind when it is suggested that women have greater verbal abilities than men?) However, most tests show men having a greater standard deviation than women. Men have more geniuses and morons. If the group you're looking for is far from the mean (in either direction) you will find more men than women. I, personally, like the idea that men and women are different. By the way, Heinlein stated just the opposite in "Puppet Masters." Heinlein's protagonists, both male and female, did tend to be to good to be true. But, other authors have the same problem. Anybody read Clancey or W*b*r or even the Hornblower books? Bill Wenrich "... a hard heart is no defense against a soft head." - C.S.Lewis, "The Abolition of Man" --------________--------________-------- From WaWenri at aol.com Mon Mar 7 04:04:09 2005 From: WaWenri at aol.com (WaWenri at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:04:09 EST Subject: [LMB] Math, sex, gengineering OT: Message-ID: Michael Brazier writes: Sorry to almost repeat your post. I get the digests and sometimes I'm late. Bill Wenrich "... a hard heart is no defense against a soft head." - C.S.Lewis, "The Abolition of Man" --------________--------________-------- From lioness at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 7 04:18:03 2005 From: lioness at bellsouth.net (Debbie) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 22:18:03 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Math, sex, gengineering OT: In-Reply-To: <145.40ff482a.2f5d2b56@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050306221227.0276fe18@mail.bellsouth.net> >The data suggest that there is a very small difference in the mean (average) ability of men and >women in most areas. (How come no one seems to mind when it is suggested that women >have greater verbal abilities than men?) However, most tests show men having a greater >standard deviation than women. Men have more geniuses and morons. If the group you're >looking for is far from the mean (in either direction) you will find more men than women. >Bill Wenrich Thank you for saying that for me. I still have scorch marks from the last time I posted that factoid to a list. Dh (Ph.D in Molecular Biology) has suggested that females are more genetically conservative than males to better insure that they would be able to take care of their young, whereas males are more genetically variable to shake up the gene pool. Debbie http://www.brigidsforge.com Original sterling Gothic and Pagan jewelry "He hasn't been the same since his spirit guide discovered object-oriented programming." --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Mon Mar 7 05:05:00 2005 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 00:05:00 EST Subject: [LMB] Math, sex, gengineering OT: Message-ID: <76.4e5cf90f.2f5d3afc@aol.com> M. Traber writes: system where you learned multiplication, division, percents and fractions in 4th grade to one where they were learned in third grade [yay army=\] and all that first month [in america *generally* the first month of school is spent reviewing the last years bits] I was abused by the teacher for refusing to do my schoolwork, being obstructive when called on in class and derided as an idiot. It never freaking occurred to the b*tch that I may not have known the information because of the difference in schooling...and being brand freaking new in class, I was overwhelmed and VERY shy, and probably it never occurred to me to speak out and say that I didnt know the information. It took my mother getting *FINALLY* called in to be talked to and her noting that I was never taught that crap to finally get some remedial teaching...but pretty much ever since then I did the least possible math I could get away with, and resisted learning new things... M: I had a very similar experience, except a couple of years younger. I started in a private school in February in the middle of the second grade the year I was supposed to have been in kindergarten. I could read well, but as far as math went all I could do was count (I had just turned six). My regular teacher knew I hadn't been in any school before, but I was a boarder and the study hall teacher had been left out of the loop somehow. She spanked me every day for *pretending* I didn't know my multiplication tables. Since I didn't even know what she was talking about, I couldn't explain what I didn't understand. I did probably break all speed records for learning them, all the way through the 12s in about three days, but since I didn't know how to add or subtract yet, I was understandably confused about math for about a year. I also disliked it intensely until I hit algebra and geometry, which was fun. Not enough fun for me to major in it, though. The poor study hall teacher felt terrible when it was explained to her that I hadn't been talking back when I didn't understand what she meant, and was probably much nicer to me than I deserved for the rest of the year, but the damage had been done. Mary --------________--------________-------- From tlambs1138 at charter.net Mon Mar 7 05:05:15 2005 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:05:15 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #4788 - 20 msgs References: <200503060537.FAA16982@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <017701c522d3$4166b0e0$9bebbe42@Samantha> >Debbie: > Women who are capable of becoming combat pilots tend to be much better than > men. However, few women are capable of passing the requisite tests. It's > one of the few places where a distinct biological-based difference in the > majority of men vs. the majority of women can be noticed. Paula: >Please cite your references for that. If it is anything out of the so-called Center for Military Readiness or secondary sources citing at expert authority Elaine Donelly and her fellow ideologues with agenda masquerading as researchers, it's got all the credibility of a male who's spent his entire life on Athos talking about female pilots. --Part of this might well be engineering and design. I spent four years in the Air Force dealing with items and equipment (don't ask me about the dentist chairs) specificially designed for six-foot-tall males (and right handers, too, but that's a different issue) and lacking in ability to adjust. That's a Leo Graf problem, not a user problem (hey! On topic ref!). I couldn't become a navigator even though I had the math scores because the sextant was not movable and they wanted me to be able to see through the darn thing for some strange reason. I even offered to wear heels and anyone who knows about my feet knows what a sacrifice _that_ was, but the position of a piece of equipment is a design problem. As Pat Mathews pointed out, once smaller cars with dashboards that even my Nana could see over were available, the accident rate in women went down. Jean Lamb, tlambs1138 at charter.net "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you are crunchy and good with lemon drops." --------________--------________-------- From celticdragonfly at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 05:07:16 2005 From: celticdragonfly at gmail.com (Laura Gallagher) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:07:16 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Abbreviations (WAS OT: Heinlein) In-Reply-To: <3197187932jbryant@luna.co.uk> References: <3197187932jbryant@luna.co.uk> Message-ID: <209a74ed0503062107454afe2c@mail.gmail.com> James Bryant wrote: > We are not limited to 168 character SMS packets on this list. > > Think of Miles on "Ekaterin" v "Kat" in Komarr. > (I can't quote - I'm in Gdansk and my electronic Komarr is > at home. Anyone?) At your service. (Italics indicated by /this/, let's not send this html) It's in Chapter 12. /Ekaterin/. He tasted the syllables of her name in his mind. It had been so easy, speaking with her uncle, to slip into the familiar form. But she had not yet invited him to use her first name. Her late husband had called her /Kat/. A pet name. A little name. As if he hadn't had time to pronounce the whole thing, or wished to be bothered. It was true her full array, /Ekaterin Nile Vorvayne Vorsoisson/, made an impractical mouthful. But /Ekaterin/ was light on the teeth and the tip of the tongue, yet elegant and dignified and entirely worth an extra second of, of anyone's time. We live to serve, Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From cessnadriver at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 05:15:08 2005 From: cessnadriver at gmail.com (James) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:15:08 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Gmail invites In-Reply-To: <20050307025259.GC13769@fireopal.org> References: <3b8ab98e05030522453b41f902@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050306110150.034e91d0@pop.east.cox.net> <20050307025259.GC13769@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <3b8ab98e05030621156e60409a@mail.gmail.com> Actually, it's a 1GB mailbox. And since the initial announcement, a number of other free webmail providers have upgraded their accounts (Hotmail from 2MB to 250MB, Yahoo to 250MB), and a few others offer 1GB webmail accounts as well. --------________--------________-------- From celticdragonfly at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 05:15:21 2005 From: celticdragonfly at gmail.com (Laura Gallagher) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:15:21 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Any listies in Toronto? In-Reply-To: <20050307031751.GD13769@fireopal.org> References: <20050307031751.GD13769@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <209a74ed05030621151c19a7aa@mail.gmail.com> Scott Raun wrote? > http://www.viceversa.com/Dynamic/Products,intCategoryID,34,intItemID,1447.html > my wife would really like one of these, and we can't find > anywhere to order one. Seconded! Do pass on anything you find out. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From billie_t at fastmail.fm Mon Mar 7 06:37:26 2005 From: billie_t at fastmail.fm (Tracy MacShane) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:37:26 +1100 Subject: [LMB] Math, sex, gengineering OT: In-Reply-To: <76.4e5cf90f.2f5d3afc@aol.com> References: <76.4e5cf90f.2f5d3afc@aol.com> Message-ID: <1110177446.26665.216708170@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 00:05:00 EST, CatMtn at aol.com said: > M. Traber writes: > > I was abused by the teacher for refusing to do my > schoolwork, being obstructive when called on in class and derided > as an idiot. > > > M: > > I had a very similar experience, except a couple of years younger. ... Yeah, I went through that one too, except I kept being stuck in the "dummies" class. It wasn't until I turned 10 (we start school at 5) that we all did standardised reading tests, and lo and behold, I was suddenly stuck in the top classes, which did extension work above the age group. I kind of blame that early experience for my lack of motivation at school subsequently - I passed reasonably well, but not through study - and my poor study habits since. Just as a note to all you parents: do *not* make your child have to attend 13 schools - it's lucky I was bright. Maybe more outgoing children would find it easier. --------________--------________-------- From billie_t at fastmail.fm Mon Mar 7 06:41:19 2005 From: billie_t at fastmail.fm (Tracy MacShane) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:41:19 +1100 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #4788 - 20 msgs In-Reply-To: <017701c522d3$4166b0e0$9bebbe42@Samantha> References: <200503060537.FAA16982@talia3.herald.co.uk> <017701c522d3$4166b0e0$9bebbe42@Samantha> Message-ID: <1110177679.26833.216708390@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:05:15 -0800, "Jean Lamb" said: > > --Part of this might well be engineering and design. ... Exactly. A friend of mine is in the US Navy, and mentioned a test which involves being able to turn some kind of wheel to open or shut something within a specified amount of time. Virtually all females fail the test initially, and even with practice, the pass rate is something less than 50%. What immediately sprang to my mind was that if it's opening or closing (or raising or lowering) something, it has to be geared in some way. So why not design the thing so the gearing works for a greater range of strengths? Bizarre that it's not already. --------________--------________-------- From mtraber251 at earthlink.net Mon Mar 7 07:08:21 2005 From: mtraber251 at earthlink.net (M. Traber) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 02:08:21 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Any listies in Toronto? In-Reply-To: <209a74ed05030621151c19a7aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050307031751.GD13769@fireopal.org> <209a74ed05030621151c19a7aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <422BFDE5.7010800@earthlink.net> > Scott Raun wrote? > >> http://www.viceversa.com/Dynamic/Products,intCategoryID,34,intItemID,1447.html >> > I would also be interested in finding out how much they are and where to get one, maybe for christmas... -- -- For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling --------________--------________-------- From mtraber251 at earthlink.net Mon Mar 7 07:12:32 2005 From: mtraber251 at earthlink.net (M. Traber) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 02:12:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Math, sex, gengineering OT: In-Reply-To: <76.4e5cf90f.2f5d3afc@aol.com> References: <76.4e5cf90f.2f5d3afc@aol.com> Message-ID: <422BFEE0.7060105@earthlink.net> CatMtn at aol.com wrote: > I did probably break all speed records for learning them, all the way > through the 12s in about three days, but since I didn't know how to add or > subtract yet, I was understandably confused about math for about a year. I > also disliked it intensely until I hit algebra and geometry, which was fun. Not > enough fun for me to major in it, though. I had a heck of a time in geometry...from being into art, I can draw anything with the tools they want, and even sort of explain why *I* could get that result, but I still cant 'prove' a theorum or whatever you call it to save my life...but I can freehand a tesseract 2d, and explain why it represents 4 dimensions=\ Did i mention I loved nonwuclidean geometry? and I could program in PDP 11-38 basic on paper and debug it without even using the computer....and I wrote a 38000 line program that played a very basic game of tictactoe... -- -- For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Mon Mar 7 07:12:36 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 02:12:36 -0500 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James Message-ID: <062001c522e5$0aa7ee40$0100a8c0@heaviside> I mentioned James' upcoming travel to Boston to Suford at the NESFA meeting which was a dozen hours ago. She'd like to participate if there is a dinner or some such. The NESFA Annual Meeting on Sunday May 8 is where she's probably going to be on May 8. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Mon Mar 7 07:27:48 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 02:27:48 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Math, sex, gengineering OT: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050306221227.0276fe18@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <063701c522e7$2a2f4d60$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Debbie" > >The data suggest that there is a very small difference in the > mean (average) ability of men and >women in most areas. (How come no one > seems to mind when it is suggested that women >have greater verbal > abilities than men?) However, most tests show men having a Some people do object to that as a flat statement. > greater >standard deviation than women. Men have more geniuses and > morons. If the group you're >looking for is far from the mean (in either "more" however is a relative quantity--any given individual can be anywhere along the curve, there can be a difference of the shape of the curve, of where peaks are, etc. for different subpopulations within a population, but any individual in the population, again, can be anywhere along the overall curve..... "You are female, therefore you can't do math as well as a male" is a fallacious statement. "You are female, you are likely to be shorter than your husband," is a true statement, because it's a probabilistic one. The woman may or may not be shorter than her husband... one the average women are something like what, three inches shorter on -average- than men, but there are women who are the same height, or taller, than their husbands. And a difference of three inches in 68 inches is a -bias-, but it's one of less than five percent! Given than human height for adults has a variance of more than that three inches, saying "women are shorter than men" while true on the average, in inaccurate and inappropriate to apply as "here is a woman, here is a man, the man is taller than the woman." > direction) you will find more men than women. > > >Bill Wenrich > > Thank you for saying that for me. I still have scorch marks from the last > time I posted that factoid to a list. Dh (Ph.D in Molecular Biology) has Do you mean "factoid" as in the definition that the person who came up with the word, I think it was Norman Mailer, used it as, to denote something that is said as if it were true but actually is not true? !!! > suggested that females are more genetically conservative than males to > better insure that they would be able to take care of their young, whereas > males are more genetically variable to shake up the gene pool. --------________--------________-------- From dschluter at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 08:15:01 2005 From: dschluter at gmail.com (d schluter) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 02:15:01 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Brust In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh! I just thought... since you likes Agyar (one of my favs as well) you might also want to look up Gypsy, it's more like Agyar than anything else he's written to date. > > And thanks generally for all the Brust recs : ) Love recs. Will be > giving Brust another chance, and probably reread Agyar. Again. > > JLB > -- -- Raven The Perky Goth --------________--------________-------- From dschluter at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 08:49:27 2005 From: dschluter at gmail.com (d schluter) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 02:49:27 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Meaning of Agyar in Magyar In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.1.20050303233519.02d46480@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: not only that but the idea of "brain fever" actually fits Very well with both the character and the story. Thanks for that infor It's actually quite enlighting regarding a much loved book... On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:48:51 -0800 (PST), Susan Profit wrote: > >Trivia: I'm told that Agyar is Hungarian for "fang." > > No. "Az agya'ra megy" (Azz adj aw rah mage) means "it is driving him > mad." > > Agy (pronounced like adj- at the start of adjective) is the noun for > brain. One of the three meanings for -ar is a suffix/noun for flood or > current. From the grammatical use of the suffix the cultural meaning > of the two is the kind of insanity that used to be called brain fever > (along with several other viral infections that could trigger > dementia.) Rabies and encephalitis are other words. > > But Magyar is a language with several meanings for each word at the > same time. I assume as a Magyar speaker that Brust is well aware of > the 'Mad Hungarian' stereotype, the popular connection between > Hungarians and vampires, and the close similarity between Agyar and > Magyar and is playing on all of them. > > Susan in Kent aka Profitne' Zsuzsa > (Why yes, I eat garlic and play in the sunshine, why do you ask?) -- Raven The Perky Goth --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Mon Mar 7 12:57:16 2005 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 07:57:16 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #4788 - 20 msgs References: <200503060537.FAA16982@talia3.herald.co.uk> <017701c522d3$4166b0e0$9bebbe42@Samantha> <1110177679.26833.216708390@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <422C4FAC.D8637732@erols.com> Tracy MacShane wrote: > What immediately sprang to my mind was that if it's opening or > closing (or raising or lowering) something, it has to be geared in some > way. So why not design the thing so the gearing works for a greater > range of strengths? Bizarre that it's not already. "The right way, the wrong way, and the Navy way." Most hull types were designed (all hull types?) before women were allowed to serve at sea. It would simply never occur to someone to design for people with upper body strength less than "standard male". And retrofitting is problematic for about 100 reasons. I should probably not tell this story, but it is such a creepy example that it always comes to mind when people discuss military design. My SO was working on a Command and Control system for the Wading Navy (that's Coast Guard to you) and came home one day asking "What speeds do private jets do?" Now, I happened to know the answer (although I encouraged him to double-check it), and we talked about wierd exceptions for awhile. And he designed for some significant variations. But, still. If this is the way stuff gets spec'ed... --------________--------________-------- From mathews55 at msn.com Mon Mar 7 14:33:56 2005 From: mathews55 at msn.com (PAT MATHEWS) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 07:33:56 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Math, sex, gengineering OT: In-Reply-To: <422BFEE0.7060105@earthlink.net> Message-ID: >From: "M. Traber" > > >I had a heck of a time in geometry...from being into art, I can draw >anything with the tools they want, and even sort of explain why *I* could >get that result, but I still cant 'prove' a theorum or whatever you call it >to save my life...but I can freehand a tesseract 2d, and explain why it >represents 4 dimensions=\ > >Did i mention I loved nonwuclidean geometry? and I could program in PDP >11-38 basic on paper and debug it without even using the computer....and I >wrote a 38000 line program that played a very basic game of tictactoe... >-- Wow. I'm envious. My visual-spatial abilities are like WAY down the other side of the curve. Pat --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Mon Mar 7 12:50:12 2005 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:50:12 -0000 Subject: [LMB] Abbreviations (WAS OT Heinlein) Message-ID: <200503071501.PAA27093@talia3.herald.co.uk> > From: Laura Gallagher > Date: 07 March 2005 05:07 [...] > husband had called her /Kat/. A pet name. A little name. As if he > hadn't had time to pronounce the whole thing, or wished to be > bothered. That's a correct quote from [K ch 12 ] but is it a typo or did Lois mean it like that or is there a implied hadn't ? "... As if he hadn't had time to pronounce the whole thing, or hadn't wished to be bothered." which sounds wrong and I would have expected "... As if he hadn't had time to pronounce the whole thing, or didn't wish to be bothered." I have noticed that some English phases have lost a negative, eg, "could care less" instead of the original "couldn't care less" and some people don't notice the oddness of "It is impossible to underestimate the influence of the bible in Victorian England" so this may be only the grindstones of usage at work with this being one of the ways such phases come into use. Other examples ? Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Mon Mar 7 13:07:46 2005 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:07:46 -0000 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #4788 - 20 msgs Message-ID: <200503071501.PAA27097@talia3.herald.co.uk> > From: Tracy MacShane > Date: 07 March 2005 06:41 [...] > Exactly. A friend of mine is in the US Navy, and mentioned a test which > involves being able to turn some kind of wheel to open or shut something > within a specified amount of time. Virtually all females fail the test > initially, and even with practice, the pass rate is something less than > 50%. What immediately sprang to my mind was that if it's opening or > closing (or raising or lowering) something, it has to be geared in some > way. So why not design the thing so the gearing works for a greater > range of strengths? Bizarre that it's not already. This is like cellphones/mobiles in hospitals and on aircraft. The designers never envisaged the problem of RF and since there are (say) thirty year old aircraft the easy answer is to ban their use. Since the USN has thirty year old shiips they would first have to change their design rules and then wait thirty years. Even then a ship brought out of mothballs would be out of line and the assigned crew unable to operate her safely. Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From mtraber251 at earthlink.net Mon Mar 7 15:48:14 2005 From: mtraber251 at earthlink.net (M. Traber) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 10:48:14 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Math, sex, gengineering OT: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <422C77BE.1070707@earthlink.net> PAT MATHEWS wrote: > Wow. I'm envious. My visual-spatial abilities are like WAY down the > other side of the curve. > > Pat *but* the problem is that you cant ask or tell me to do anything with math, I have to want to do it. You ask or tell me, forget it I can barely add a column of figures=( Just like I can still remember pretty much all of the constants from AP chem [I have *never* used Avogadro's number in the real world in my life, *why* do I still have to remember it=(] and can still use a slide rule, and still draw geometrical figures ... though for all intents and purposes I have almost NEVER used anything I learned in HS...it still cheeses me off to no end that my life was a living heck in school because of one single frimping 4th grade teacher abusing me. Though I would love to program, I am forever cursed to screw up any math related class I ever take. Anything remotely resembling math, like a computer programming course just shuts down my brain=( I tried with a basic first year computer programming course and within a week was so over my head that I dropped it. I won a Bausch & Lomb science scholarship. Pitiful, isn't it. -- -- For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling --------________--------________-------- From mtraber251 at earthlink.net Mon Mar 7 15:50:32 2005 From: mtraber251 at earthlink.net (M. Traber) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 10:50:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #4788 - 20 msgs In-Reply-To: <200503071501.PAA27097@talia3.herald.co.uk> References: <200503071501.PAA27097@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <422C7848.5010509@earthlink.net> Michael R N Dolbear wrote: > This is like cellphones/mobiles in hospitals and on aircraft. The designers > never envisaged the problem of RF and since there are (say) thirty year old > aircraft the easy answer is to ban their use. Junior hubby had a particular cell phone [some euro one] that wsa specifically designed to be used in an aircraft. He even breadboarded together some sort of interface so he could hook it into Baby's radio system so he could call home using the flight helmet=) Well, he *is* an electronic/computer geek=) -- -- For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling --------________--------________-------- From brashley46 at tfnet.ca Mon Mar 7 15:47:43 2005 From: brashley46 at tfnet.ca (B. Ross Ashley) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 10:47:43 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Any listies in Toronto? Message-ID: <422C779F.90906@tfnet.ca> On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:17:51 -0600, Scott Raun wrote: > http://www.viceversa.com/Dynamic/Products,intCategoryID,34,intItemID,1447.html > Anyone live in / near Toronto? Viceversa apparently has a store in Markham - my wife > would really like one of these, and we can't find anywhere to order one. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org I'm in TO,Scott; but that address in Markham is an importer/distributor, not a retail store. I'd have to find out from them whether or not any Canadian retailer stocks that ... amusing ... knifeholder. -- B. Ross Ashley www.livejournal.com/users/brashley46/ http://brashley46.no-ip.info "You cannot conquer evil, Nukurren. Evil is not a thing from beyond, a foe to be vanquished. It is a thing which emerges from within the life of a people. It can only be changed, by changing that life." - Eric Flint, in "Mother of Demons" --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0509-5, 04/03/2005 Tested on: 07/03/2005 10:47:52 AM avast! - copyright (c) 2000-2004 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com --------________--------________-------- From jparish at siue.edu Mon Mar 7 15:55:02 2005 From: jparish at siue.edu (Jim Parish) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 09:55:02 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Abbreviations (WAS OT Heinlein) In-Reply-To: <200503071501.PAA27093@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <422C24F6.20271.50C449E@localhost> Michael Dolbear wrote: > That's a correct quote from [K ch 12 ] but is it a typo or did Lois mean it > like that or is there a implied hadn't ? > > "... As if he hadn't had time to pronounce the whole thing, or hadn't > wished to be bothered." > > which sounds wrong and I would have expected > > "... As if he hadn't had time to pronounce the whole thing, or didn't wish > to be bothered." I have no difficulty with your first version; in fact, given that Tien is dead at this point, "hadn't" sounds more natural to me than "didn't". (Had he still been alive, the matter would have been more uncertain for me.) This may be a syntactic difference between our respective dialects, though. Jim Parish --------________--------________-------- From jessybrody at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 16:06:42 2005 From: jessybrody at gmail.com (Jessy Brody) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:06:42 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: A Younger take on Heinlein Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 05, 2005 at 05:39:19PM +0000, Jessy Brody wrote: Damien: > Yeah, something like that. More precisely, the guy I was responding to had setup feminine and womanly as a contrast to heroic, and I wanted to turn that around to make people think. It worked; I'd never thought of the issue of heros vs. heroines and language in that way before. But I do think hero and heroine mean two different things, due to implications. (Snipped a lot, to justify my brief response. Hope no one ends up too confused about how we got to where we are.) JLB -- Welcome to Triage -Kurt Vonnegut He was never noisy and lacked the dogmatism of the insecure -written of George Orwell --------________--------________-------- From kevink45 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 7 16:11:06 2005 From: kevink45 at hotmail.com (Kevin Kennedy) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 11:11:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Changing gender descriptions In-Reply-To: <200503052118.VAA14609@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Personally, I need to stay away from "teenage runaway from a severely dysfunctional family joins rock&roll band/only this band can save the world" plots for awhile. I must be getting old, I'm not musically talented, I'll check out something els. Kevin snip >Gotta go, but to give a brief example, I think if I see one more "teenager >is the only one who can save the whole universe" story, I'm tempted to >shoot the protagonist. Any universe that fragile probably isn't worth >saving. > >Debbie >http://www.brigidsforge.com >Original sterling Gothic and Pagan jewelry --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Mon Mar 7 16:15:00 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:15:00 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #4788 - 20 msgs References: <200503071501.PAA27097@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <06c601c52330$d09b05b0$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael R N Dolbear" > > From: Tracy MacShane > > Date: 07 March 2005 06:41 > [...] > > Exactly. A friend of mine is in the US Navy, and mentioned a test which > > involves being able to turn some kind of wheel to open or shut something > > within a specified amount of time. Virtually all females fail the test > > initially, and even with practice, the pass rate is something less than > > 50%. What immediately sprang to my mind was that if it's opening or > > closing (or raising or lowering) something, it has to be geared in some > > way. So why not design the thing so the gearing works for a greater > > range of strengths? Bizarre that it's not already. > > This is like cellphones/mobiles in hospitals and on aircraft. The designers Cell phones are in the RF electromagnetic spectrum. The "problems of RF" were around before cell phones. "Taking the dead bird count" of birds killed by the radar at Shemya Air Force Station or Base [don't remember which it was anymore] was according to the people who'd been there, the Really Exciting Thing To Do there back before it converted over to a phased array radar from an older radar system, in 1975. The microwave oven was invented by a non-degreed radar engineer at Raytheon who always had a Hershey bar in his shirt pocket--one day he was working with a radar tube that was "leaky" -- leaking radio frequency waves--and it melted the chocolate bar in his pocket "and thus was born [the Amana Radarange]!" > never envisaged the problem of RF and since there are (say) thirty year old > aircraft the easy answer is to ban their use. > The instruments and control systems on planes and engines controls and flight control systems etc. are electronic and the RF from cell phones, and other sources, can disrupt their operations-- "High Powered Microwave" weapons are not new inventions. They're high powered because the power dropps off rapidly with distance. But someone with a cell phone on a plane is inside the plane, and therefore the distance is a lot shorter to affect the plane's control systems and instruments. Shielding them is possible but involves redesign and replacement of equipment, and having to test it all out. > Since the USN has thirty year old shiips they would first have to change > their design rules and then wait thirty years. Even then a ship brought out No they wouldn't. They could replace the hatches and such a lot faster than that if they felt like it--and probably do replace a lot of the mechanical parts in hatches and such in a lot shorter cycle of time than thirty years. Equipment replacement happens all the time, especially of mechanical parts. Something I learned in the military, mechanical linkage assembles such as "rotary joints" and mechanical actuators are the things that tend to operationally be the most trouble-prone equipment. > of mothballs would be out of line and the assigned crew unable to operate > her safely. --------________--------________-------- From nbombay at mindspring.com Mon Mar 7 16:55:51 2005 From: nbombay at mindspring.com (Nora Bombay) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:55:51 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [LMB] OT:Slide Rule Watch Message-ID: <21950399.1110214552077.JavaMail.root@wamui04.slb.atl.earthl ink.net> I saw this today and thought of all the engineering hearts that would kill for it. It's straight out of a Heinlien Novel- Imagine, being able to carry your slide rule on your watch! http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/74ce/ NB. Not acting as a sales agent, merely fascinated. --------________--------________-------- From jessybrody at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 16:56:49 2005 From: jessybrody at gmail.com (Jessy Brody) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:56:49 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Other Authors and now other other things, too Message-ID: Oh sh*t. Oh sh*t, oh sh*t, oh sh*t. Pardon the Anglo-Saxon but I just lost my 'to read' list. Which was saved as a draft on my gmail account. Not gmail's fault, just mine. I've only had it (the list) a few months, but it was long, and gave me a sense of security, and now it's gone. What's weird is how much it's bothering me. Well, maybe it would seem weird to other people, but I like to be organized and I'm not used to losing things and, and, and it was a list of BOOKS! Deep breaths. It's going to be ok. Lots of it I can reconstruct, and the rest, well, just won't think about that. Okay. Though if anyone knows of a way to retrieve such things ... Time to move on with my life. Things could be much worse. Me: > decade or 20 years or something bc I'd read them *so many* times as a > child not taken to the library often enough and had read all the Damien: Tangent: why I like cities. Kids can walk to the library and take public transit to museums. Me: That's why I like cities, too. So much, so close. Grew up in the suburbs - that was the problem. *Now* end tangent. Me: > I know some ppl, including Tolkien fans (the kind that were fans > before the films), like what Peter Jackson did well enough, but I have > developed a severe aversion somehow. And now, thinking back to Damien: I found much to grumble about coming out of the first movie. (I *did* read the Silmarillion, and more.) Some people came out of the second movie grumbling, I listended, and decided not to see the second or third. It's all just one big sore point, esp since most ppl are not on the same page as me. All the great big epics that have been coming out of Hollywood (yeah, Jackson is from NZ, I know, but still) have become sore points for me. Also, I'm a baby classicist (confused? My meaning, and don't I sound like Humpty Dumpty, my meaning is that I've studied Latin and Greek, am familiar with the myths, etc but I'm only out of high school, so I'm not a fully grown adult classicist with a thesis and everything.), so Troy wasn't, well it was a little ... anyway. And I know I'm going to cave in and see Alexander, which will be really painful, judging by the reviews, and esp since Megalexandros is one of my favorite historical figures (thanks to Mary Renault; great historical fiction). But at least Gormenghast was got right, I mean, really beautifully casted - another movie based on a really big book. And I like the film version of Clockwork Orange was fine, just fine, and I actually prefer the film of Orlando to the book (by Virginia Woolf; only thing by her that I've read). In conclusion: Life could be better, but it could also be a whole lot worse. Me: > Tolkien's prose-style esp in most of Return of the King, I wonder how > I became such a fan, esp starting at the tender age of 8 or 9. I don't Damien: I know a girl here who read LotR at 8. I don't remember my age, but I figure 4th grade, tops. Largely because I think it was then that my class was required to memorize something to recite in front of the class, and I picked Gimli's chant in Moria from Fellowship. "The world was young, the mountains green". I get defensive when people trash JRRT's poetry. :) Me: I don't think I've ever heard anyone trash Tolkien's poetry, possibly bc I know few ppl who have read it and they tend to be fans anyway. I guess I like it for two reasons: I read most of it when I was young and my mind was unformed (familiarity breeds fondness) and it rhymes. That's why I like Kipling's poetry, too. Well, and his prose, too, sexist imperialist that he was. Damien: > _Bored [of the Rings_] became boring for me fast. I think I read the Diaries, at least up a point. The Molly Ringwraith takes were good, though. (And didn't encourage me to see the movies!) Me: No, it's not, likesay, Monty Python the page. I guess my point was that they didn't piss me off for making fun of some books that are dear to me. Even if I don't read them any more. Damien: > I was a news junkie as a kid -- well, we ate dinner watching the MacNeil-Lehrer NewsHours; I watched Iran-Contra live, age 11. In college I snapped. Now I try to keep up with the basics; my.yahoo's AP and Reuters feeds are useful, I scan the headlines and read a bit. news.google would work too, but I'm less consistent. But if I think or talk about it too much my stress goes up. Me: I went through my news junkie phase like last year. Still an incurable word junkie, so I end up reading newspaper anyway. And I do like a rough idea of what's going on. I don't know if I was alive when Iran-Contra happened ... Me: > If I'm eating, I want something to read to, and ... Damien: Cereal boxes! Me: Insufficient. I mean, if I'm desperate, sure, but for preference I'd at least like the Hartford Courant comics section (almost two pages of comics, most of them worth the read). Me: > deleting most of them. You could form a new version of Six Degrees > from Kevin Bacon based on conversational topics and the ability of a > lateral thinker to jump from one to another in the space of a Damien: Yeah, my best friend and I would have these wonderfully rambling conversations in college and I'd sometimes pause and wonder "hey, we were talking about P, how did we get to W?" Sometimes we could reconstruct the path or even unwind our stacks, oftennot. I've done that with my own thought processes ... 'unwind our stacks'? huh? JLB, who lived without a comforting long 'to read' list for most of her life and will be able to get by without one for a while. Will start a new one as soon as I have the heart to. -- Welcome to Triage -Kurt Vonnegut He was never noisy and lacked the dogmatism of the insecure -written of George Orwell --------________--------________-------- From selene at earthlink.net Mon Mar 7 17:07:38 2005 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 09:07:38 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Double Star Message-ID: <422C8A5A.7070308@earthlink.net> Jean Lamb wrote: >> I've always thought it would be interesting to make Double Star as a movie >> with Michael Douglas as Lorenzo Smythe (or Larry Smith) and Kirk Douglas as >> the politico he's impersonating, of whom we see only pictures and videos >> (Michael Douglas again) till Joseph Bonforte (there! I knew the name would >> show up!) is rescued _after_ his stroke. The resemblance between the two >> could easily increase as Michael Douglas is 'aged'. Both are superb actors, >> and damn! Kirk would be such a _lion_ as Bonforte with the stroke. > Wow. Or maybe the Sheens, although they have already done that bit in a TV advert for a credit card, showing how long it took the shopkeeper on the phone to clear Charlie's check that he aged into his da Martin. My bigger worry about a Double Star movie are the inevitable comparisons with earlier movies on the same subject, DAVE and even MOON OVER PARADOR. Susan Fox-Davis / Ma Foxti selene at earthlink.net --------________--------________-------- From selene at earthlink.net Mon Mar 7 17:07:58 2005 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 09:07:58 -0800 Subject: OT: Demented knife rack was Re: [LMB] Any listies in Toronto? Message-ID: <422C8A6E.1090609@earthlink.net> Scott Raun wrote? >> http://www.viceversa.com/Dynamic/Products,intCategoryID,34,intItemID,1447.html > >> my wife would really like one of these, and we can't find >> anywhere to order one. > The web site tells you which designer did each item, so I looked up this same chap and found one other demented item: http://www.viceversa.com/Dynamic/Products,intCategoryID,48,intItemID,1380.html They seem to have a drop-down menu for international distributors but not one for the US. http://www.viceversa.com/Site/Distribution,intCategoryID,4,DistributorType,5.html There is one in Canada: Name: Euromarket International Address: 7351 Victoria Park Ave., Suite 202 City: Markham Postcode: ON L3R 3A5 Province: Ontario Country: Canada Tel: 905.479.8054 Fax: 905.479.5411 Email: info at viceversacanada.com Hoping Father Christmas reads this list in plenty of time, Susan Fox-Davis / Ma Foxti selene at earthlink.net --------________--------________-------- From selene at earthlink.net Mon Mar 7 17:23:21 2005 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox-Davis) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 09:23:21 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Math, sex, gengineering OT: Message-ID: <422C8E09.4040504@earthlink.net> Bill Wenrich writes: >Heinlein's rotagonists, both male and female, did tend to be to good to be true. >But, other authors have the same problem. Anybody read Clancey or W*b*r >or even the Hornblower books? Much about the "too good to be true" thing becomes clear when you meet the people that Heinlein hung out with. A lot of them were polymaths or specialists, but largely extremely intelligent people. Particularly the women; the females who hung out in SF Fandom in the 1950's and before were muchly outnumbered by the males but not at all outclassed, who would be amazing humans of whatever gender. The ones I have met, Virginia Heinlein, Karen Anderson and other LASFS members of that time and later, certainly support this theory. I wouldn't want to get in a fight with any of them! See Spider Robinson's essay, "Rah, Rah, RAH!", webbed at for more refutations of the usual complaints. I like the paragraph beginning "(2) 'Heinlein is a male chauvinist'" particularly. Susan Fox-Davis / Ma Foxti selene at earthlink.net --------________--------________-------- From ddj.samson at att.net Mon Mar 7 17:55:49 2005 From: ddj.samson at att.net (ddj.samson at att.net) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:55:49 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Prayers Please OT: Message-ID: <030720051755.11826.422C95A4000A1DF800002E32216037602102019C 030E9CD2060B0B@att.net> Our prayers are with her. David & Julia -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: jbryant at luna.co.uk > Sarah (Ook!) the Librarian of the Bryant Books > has just heard that her mother has quite advanced > cancer of the pancreas. > -- --------________--------________-------- From adamek at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 18:09:26 2005 From: adamek at gmail.com (Adam Ek) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:09:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: <422B0109.7C500762@erols.com> References: <126.58212452.2f5b6957@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050305143102.05989b60@mail.bellsouth.net> <422B0109.7C500762@erols.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 08:09:29 -0500, Alexandra Haropulos wrote: > Cordelia, Aral and Miles serve as an inspiration to everyone > in their District and in some cases the whole Imperium. > Ivan, while he has his virtues, inspires no-one. Ivan has his heroic moments. Think about the council session at the end of ACC. I think Ivan has read both the Evil Overlord List and the Sidekicks list. --------________--------________-------- From gordon at gordonj.net Mon Mar 7 18:24:14 2005 From: gordon at gordonj.net (Gordon Jackson) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:24:14 +1300 Subject: OT: upper body strength and warships, was re [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #4788 - 20 msgs In-Reply-To: <06c601c52330$d09b05b0$0100a8c0@heaviside> Message-ID: <200503071825.SAA28701@talia3.herald.co.uk> Never the less redesigning and, especially, retro fitting, for warships is a far from trivial exercise. There are other jobs requiring physical strenth on warships, the main one that springs to mind being damage control (fire fighting and flooding control), which is some thing every crewmember has to be capable of doing. The obstacles can be overcome however, something the Royal new Zealand Navy managed 17 yrs ago when it first posted women to sea on warships. Cheers Gordon > > From: Tracy MacShane > > Date: 07 March 2005 06:41 > [...] > > Exactly. A friend of mine is in the US Navy, and mentioned a test > > which involves being able to turn some kind of wheel to open or shut > > something within a specified amount of time. Virtually all females > > fail the test initially, and even with practice, the pass rate is > > something less than 50%. What immediately sprang to my mind was that > > if it's opening or closing (or raising or lowering) something, it > > has to be geared in some way. So why not design the thing so the > > gearing works for a greater range of strengths? Bizarre that it's not already. > > Since the USN has thirty year old shiips they would first have to > change their design rules and then wait thirty years. Even then a ship > brought out No they wouldn't. They could replace the hatches and such a lot faster than that if they felt like it--and probably do replace a lot of the mechanical parts in hatches and such in a lot shorter cycle of time than thirty years. Equipment replacement happens all the time, especially of mechanical parts. Something I learned in the military, mechanical linkage assembles such as "rotary joints" and mechanical actuators are the things that tend to operationally be the most trouble-prone equipment. --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Mon Mar 7 18:29:55 2005 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:29:55 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Winterfair Gifts question Message-ID: <422C9DA3.4090402@myinfmail.com> Sometime in the pixel-stream I dimly remember some sort of recognition for the novella from the romance side going past. It's not on the Dendarii awards site. Anyone remember offhand? Ta, L. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.2 - Release Date: 3/4/2005 --------________--------________-------- From batwrangler at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 18:50:07 2005 From: batwrangler at gmail.com (Batwrangler) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:50:07 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Winterfair Gifts question In-Reply-To: <422C9DA3.4090402@myinfmail.com> References: <422C9DA3.4090402@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: Is this what you were thinking of? From: MegJ Subject: [LMB] RRA-L voting Thought the folks here might be interested. Megaera --- ================================ 2004 RRA-L AWARD WINNERS ================================ 2.) Best romance novella of 2004 Winner: "Winterfair Gifts" by Lois McMaster Bujold (in IRRESISTIBLE FORCES) 2. "The Trouble with Heroes" by Jo Beverley (in IRRESISTIBLE FORCES) 3. "The Alchemical Marriage" by Mary Jo Putney (in IRRESISTIBLE FORCES) On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:29:55 -0600, Lois McMaster Bujold wrote: > Sometime in the pixel-stream I dimly remember some sort of recognition > for the novella from the romance side going past. It's not on the > Dendarii awards site. Anyone remember offhand? > > Ta, L. > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.2 - Release Date: 3/4/2005 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- aol: gwynedd gmail and LJ: batwrangler http://www.batwrangler.net --------________--------________-------- From m.dolbear at lineone.net Mon Mar 7 18:53:31 2005 From: m.dolbear at lineone.net (Michael R N Dolbear) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:53:31 -0000 Subject: [LMB] Winterfair Gifts question Message-ID: <200503071854.SAA28925@talia3.herald.co.uk> > From: Lois McMaster Bujold > Date: 07 March 2005 18:29 > > Sometime in the pixel-stream I dimly remember some sort of recognition > for the novella from the romance side going past. It's not on the > Dendarii awards site. Anyone remember offhand? There was a reminder that "Winterfair Grifts" qualified for a Novella nomination for the Hugos to be voted on at Worldcon. Nominate Now ! Little Egret --------________--------________-------- From celticdragonfly at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 18:57:19 2005 From: celticdragonfly at gmail.com (Laura Gallagher) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:57:19 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Winterfair Gifts question In-Reply-To: <422C9DA3.4090402@myinfmail.com> References: <422C9DA3.4090402@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: <209a74ed05030710571421f09a@mail.gmail.com> > Sometime in the pixel-stream I dimly remember some sort of recognition > for the novella from the romance side going past. It's not on the > Dendarii awards site. Anyone remember offhand? > > Ta, L. Gmail's search function and I live to serve: Relevant link - http://www.toad.net/~dolma/ Laura Gallagher --------------------------------------------------------- ================================ 2004 RRA-L AWARD WINNERS ================================ 2.) Best romance novella of 2004 Winner: "Winterfair Gifts" by Lois McMaster Bujold (in IRRESISTIBLE FORCES) 2. "The Trouble with Heroes" by Jo Beverley (in IRRESISTIBLE FORCES) 3. "The Alchemical Marriage" by Mary Jo Putney (in IRRESISTIBLE FORCES) >> Would you care to unpack this a bit more for the uninitiated? Explain, > links, whatever? Sounds like something for the news column... > > Ta, L. >Sure. RRA-L is one of the bigger romance readers' email lists out there -- it's on the Kent State University server, IIRC, and has been around for a number of years. Some of your colleagues from Irresistible Forces (Mary Jo Putney and Jo Beverly) post there occasionally, as do quite a few other romance authors and many readers. The list does a poll like this every year. I don't have the link handy, but googling on "RRA-L" will bring it up. >Megaera who voted for you --------________--------________-------- From firedrake at earthlink.net Mon Mar 7 18:57:05 2005 From: firedrake at earthlink.net (James Fox-Davis) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:57:05 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT:Slide Rule Watch In-Reply-To: <21950399.1110214552077.JavaMail.root@wamui04.slb.atl.earth l ink.net> References: <21950399.1110214552077.JavaMail.root@wamui04.slb.atl.earthl ink.net> Message-ID: <9d6ce17a52ae811e603d4893c35ffe66@earthlink.net> That's just too cool. Mind you, with my eyes, I probably couldn't read it these days anyway, but I'd have given my eye teeth for one of these when I was in the Army. Jim On Mar 7, 2005, at 8:55 AM, Nora Bombay wrote: > I saw this today and thought of all the engineering hearts that would > kill for it. > > It's straight out of a Heinlien Novel- Imagine, being able to carry > your slide rule on your watch! > > http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/74ce/ > > NB. Not acting as a sales agent, merely fascinated. --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Mon Mar 7 19:02:47 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:02:47 -0500 Subject: OT: upper body strength and warships, was re [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #4788 - 20 msgs References: <200503071825.SAA28701@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <074301c52348$40adda00$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Jackson" > Never the less redesigning and, especially, retro fitting, for warships is > a far from trivial exercise. There are other jobs requiring physical strenth My point is that a lot of it has to be done -anyway- under the guise of 'general mainenance and upgrade." Salt water and sea air are corrosive... > on warships, the main one that springs to mind being damage control (fire > fighting and flooding control), which is some thing every crewmember has to > be capable of doing. The obstacles can be overcome however, something the > Royal new Zealand Navy managed 17 yrs ago when it first posted women to sea > on warships. There is stuff too heavy for most men to lift, though... so there are items that are designated for having multiple people to life them instead of one. The discussion of such things is in one of Marion Zimmer Bradley's books, which I can't remember the title of, or the names of most of the characters... it's the book in which there is a character "Margali' who was raised mostly on Darkover but is a citizen of Earth, the women grown to adulthood who was the girl rescued from the Dry Towns in an earlier book, who had taken the oath of Free Amazonhood in her teenage years against her foster mother and foster father's will, and who was later to be Cleindori's birth mother... was the book Thendara House? It was one of the books in the set that that book belongs to, that much I do remember. Anyway, some male--Peter?--is arguing that men are stronger than women, which the response to is something like "aren't there things too heavy for you to lift by yourself? What do you do then?" and he admitted that he got help from other people to lift such things. Another point was than men used to being physically strong often substitute brute force for thinking about other ways that often work better, for doing thing. --------________--------________-------- From A.Hendon at BrooklynPublicLibrary.org Mon Mar 7 19:08:07 2005 From: A.Hendon at BrooklynPublicLibrary.org (Hendon, Alison) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:08:07 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Winterfair Gifts question Message-ID: <7C952CC727B6A94BA342634037F1F93503378A62@bplwired2> Little Egret wrote: > >There was a reminder that "Winterfair Grifts" qualified for a Novella >nomination for the Hugos to be voted on at Worldcon. I for one would love to read "Winterfair Grifts" - pickpocketing, find the lady, etc. at the festival? Alison --------________--------________-------- From lbujold at myinfmail.com Mon Mar 7 19:28:33 2005 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois McMaster Bujold) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 13:28:33 -0600 Subject: [LMB] grifts Message-ID: <422CAB61.6090208@myinfmail.com> *Hendon, Alison * A.Hendon at BrooklynPublicLibrary.org /Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:08:07 -0500/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ / / I for one would love to read "Winterfair Grifts" - pickpocketing, find the lady, etc. at the festival? Alison What *is* "find the lady", anyway? I've seen that reference a couple of times lately... Ta, L. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.2 - Release Date: 3/4/2005 --------________--------________-------- From A.Hendon at BrooklynPublicLibrary.org Mon Mar 7 19:37:23 2005 From: A.Hendon at BrooklynPublicLibrary.org (Hendon, Alison) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:37:23 -0500 Subject: [LMB] grifts Message-ID: <7C952CC727B6A94BA342634037F1F93503378A6F@bplwired2> I believe "find the lady" is sort of like the shell game that's done with peas under nutshells, that are moved about over and over, only in FTL it's done with cards. For some reason I always think of the lady as the Queen of Spades. Alison -----Original Message----- From: Lois McMaster Bujold [mailto:lbujold at myinfmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 2:29 PM To: lois- >> "lois- >> Bujold chat list" Subject: [LMB] grifts *Hendon, Alison * A.Hendon at BrooklynPublicLibrary.org /Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:08:07 -0500/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ / / I for one would love to read "Winterfair Grifts" - pickpocketing, find the lady, etc. at the festival? Alison What *is* "find the lady", anyway? I've seen that reference a couple of times lately... Ta, L. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.2 - Release Date: 3/4/2005 -- Lois-Bujold mailing list Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold --------________--------________-------- From christine at forber.net Mon Mar 7 19:40:42 2005 From: christine at forber.net (Christine Forber) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:40:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT:Slide Rule Watch In-Reply-To: <21950399.1110214552077.JavaMail.root@wamui04.slb.atl.earth l ink.net> Message-ID: At 11:55 AM 3/7/2005 -0500, Nora Bombay wrote: >I saw this today and thought of all the engineering hearts that would kill for it. > >It's straight out of a Heinlien Novel- Imagine, being able to carry your slide rule on your watch! > >http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/74ce/ My husband has an aviation watch that has a slide rule around the outside. I think it is for fuel calculations, if memory serves me correctly. He bought it when he got an unexpected bonus from work a couple of summers ago. Various other bells and whistles. I'll ask him if he has a link for it. And yes, we both thought it was way cool to have a watch with a slide rule, and yes, we are both old enough to have been taught how to use a slide rule when in high school. Christine --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Mon Mar 7 19:41:32 2005 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:41:32 EST Subject: [LMB] Re: tHH ARC Message-ID: <1ed.37387a13.2f5e086c@aol.com> Ginnilee: Have you put my HH ARC into the mail to Meg J yet? I read it and mailed it in two days; Helene did so and forwarded it to you in around four, even while taking care of sick children. You've had it for nearly a month, and there is a waiting list for it. I'd appreciate it, and so would the rest of the people who are due to read it, if you would get it sent. The cost for mailing it priority mail with tracking was $6.75 for me to Helene; if that's a problem for you, let me know and I can send it to you. Mary --------________--------________-------- From batwrangler at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 19:48:26 2005 From: batwrangler at gmail.com (Batwrangler) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:48:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] grifts In-Reply-To: <422CAB61.6090208@myinfmail.com> References: <422CAB61.6090208@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: Three card monte (lady=queen)? On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 13:28:33 -0600, Lois McMaster Bujold > >I for one would love to read "Winterfair Grifts" - pickpocketing, find the > >lady, etc. at the festival? > > > >Alison > > What *is* "find the lady", anyway? I've seen that reference a couple of > times lately... > > Ta, L. > -- aol: gwynedd gmail and LJ: batwrangler http://www.batwrangler.net --------________--------________-------- From ginni.berger at juno.com Mon Mar 7 19:29:32 2005 From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:29:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James Message-ID: <20050307.145049.3204.3.ginni.berger@juno.com> On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 02:12:36 -0500 "Paula Lieberman" writes: > I mentioned James' upcoming travel to Boston to Suford at the NESFA > meeting > which was a dozen hours ago. She'd like to participate if there is > a > dinner or some such. The NESFA Annual Meeting on Sunday May 8 is > where > she's probably going to be on May 8. > -- Margali, you up for going? Ginnilee Lady Lavender of Teal --------________--------________-------- From ginni.berger at juno.com Mon Mar 7 19:28:40 2005 From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:28:40 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Any listies in Toronto? Message-ID: <20050307.145049.3204.2.ginni.berger@juno.com> On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 02:08:21 -0500 "M. Traber" writes: > > Scott Raun wrote? > > > >> > http://www.viceversa.com/Dynamic/Products,intCategoryID,34,intItemID,1447 .html > >> > > > I would also be interested in finding out how much they are and > where to get one, maybe for christmas... > > > The way my family's acting, I need it for venting. ;-) Appropriate color, that. Ginnilee Lady Lavender of Teal --------________--------________-------- From ginni.berger at juno.com Mon Mar 7 20:10:35 2005 From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:10:35 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: tHH ARC Message-ID: <20050307.151114.3204.7.ginni.berger@juno.com> On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:41:32 EST CatMtn at aol.com writes: > Ginnilee: > > Have you put my HH ARC into the mail to Meg J yet? I read it and > mailed it > in two days; Helene did so and forwarded it to you in around four, > even while > taking care of sick children. You've had it for nearly a month, > and there > is a waiting list for it. I'd appreciate it, and so would the rest > of the > people who are due to read it, if you would get it sent. The cost > for mailing > it priority mail with tracking was $6.75 for me to Helene; if > that's a problem > for you, let me know and I can send it to you. > > Mary > -- I sent it off to her. I'm sorry it took so long, but my life's been really weird lately. I switched to mailing it in a box, since it's protecting the book better. All I did was take a box I already had, and since it had writing all over the outside, we took it apart and turned it inside out. Ginnilee Lady Lavender of Teal --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Mon Mar 7 20:22:17 2005 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:22:17 EST Subject: [LMB] Re: Women in the Navy Message-ID: <1e1.378295c3.2f5e11f9@aol.com> Alex H writes: Most hull types were designed (all hull types?) before women were allowed to serve at sea. It would simply never occur to someone to design for people with upper body strength less than "standard male". And retrofitting is problematic for about 100 reasons. M: One thing that occurred to me when I read this was that since naval ships sometimes go into battle, wouldn't it be a good idea to allow for the possibility that a person trying to open or close a hatch might not be at 100% of their usual upper body strength? An epinephrine rush can only do so much. It's not how the GET the specs that's creepy--it's how they AVOID the specs. Mary --------________--------________-------- From CatMtn at aol.com Mon Mar 7 20:33:18 2005 From: CatMtn at aol.com (CatMtn at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:33:18 EST Subject: [LMB] Math, sex, gengineering OT: Message-ID: <77.40bee89c.2f5e148e@aol.com> Ma Foxti writes: See Spider Robinson's essay, "Rah, Rah, RAH!", webbed at for more refutations of the usual complaints. I like the paragraph beginning "(2) 'Heinlein is a male chauvinist'" particularly. Thank you, Susan, for posting that link. I've been a Heinlein fan for about 55 years, and I loved it. The only Heinlein book I haven't reread practically to tatters is _The Cat Who Could Walk Through Walls_, and that only because I didn't like the ending. Loved the book, hated the depressing ending. Mary --------________--------________-------- From douglas.winston at srupc.com Mon Mar 7 21:48:00 2005 From: douglas.winston at srupc.com (douglas.winston at srupc.com) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:48:00 -0500 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: Factoid was Math, sex, gengineering In-Reply-To: <1110197355@srupc.com> Message-ID: <1110232215@srupc.com> References: <200503071201.MAA26172 at talia3.herald.co.uk> In the SOED dictionary definition, a factoid seems equivalent to an urban legend since it gains value by being repeated. The suffix -oid means "similar to" so a factoid is similar to a fact. Actual usages may differ: 1998 _Island in the Sea of Time_,by S.M.Stirling p.281 One more factoid for the Useless Trivia File. 2001 _The Chronoliths_,by Robert Charles Wilson p.143 an almost meaningless factoid and utterly without predictive value. 2001 _The Octagonal Raven_,by L.E.Modesitt,Jr. p.355 we were still having trouble with all the small "pointer" factoids and crossleads. factoid, 2003 _Blacklist_,by Sara Paretsky p.296 2004 _Pandora's Star_,by Peter F.Hamilton p.531 until he was able to bore plenty of people with all the statistics and trivial factoids. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ You shall know the truth, and it shall make you odd. --------________--------________-------- From ravingglory at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 22:02:54 2005 From: ravingglory at yahoo.com (Anna Blumstein) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:02:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] OT: Spellchecking In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050307220254.71459.qmail@web50004.mail.yahoo.com> Alexandra Haropulos requested I use a spell checker Damien Sullivan: > Agreed, but after turning Greece into Grease she blamed > dyslexia and a spellchecker. I'd vote for proofreading before > sending, but I don't know how much that helps dyslexics. > Anna's content is good. Malfoy suguested a grammar checker will fix homonym problems in most cases Me: No Alex is right, an spell checker would have caught the majority of misspelling in the post. Yes it's a little bit of extra work for me, but in the future I'll copy and paste in to a word processer before posting anything long. The problem with spell checkers is one needs to at lest some what close to correct or the spell checker is no help. Most of the time I'm close enough but sometimes I'm not. I have never found grammar checkers at a helpful, even with simple things like homonyms. Is there something I'm missing or is my software just outdated? (The newest word processor on this computer being Word 97. Yes I know my computer is old --it's office salvage and therefore free) Anna P.S Thanks Damiem :) --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --------________--------________-------- From AndrewBarton at compuserve.com Mon Mar 7 22:08:17 2005 From: AndrewBarton at compuserve.com (Andrew Barton) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:08:17 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Math, sex, gengineering OT: Message-ID: <200503071708_MC3-1-97EE-B2B6@compuserve.com> Bill Wenrich: > The data suggest that there is a very small difference in the mean (average) > ability > of men and women in most areas. (How come no one seems to mind when it is > suggested that women have greater verbal abilities than men?) However, most > tests show men having a greater standard deviation than women. Men have more > geniuses and morons. If the group you're looking for is far from the mean > (in either direction) you will find more men than women. I'm sceptical of all results along those lines. Other posts have already discussed the problems that can arise from teaching, prior expectations, and design problems in equipment. Then even if we grant that there is such a thing as an innate abstract 'ability' to do maths, at most the tests could be telling us about the particular populations sampled. How many different nations were included? What languages did the text subjects speak? Andrew --------________--------________-------- From becca_price at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 23:17:19 2005 From: becca_price at yahoo.com (Becca Price) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:17:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Brust In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050307231719.73565.qmail@web41001.mail.yahoo.com> I gotta admit I love the Paarfi books (500 Years After, The Phoenix Guards, and so on) but lost interst in the Vlad Taltos books as they got progressively darker. -becca __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --------________--------________-------- From becca_price at yahoo.com Mon Mar 7 23:18:58 2005 From: becca_price at yahoo.com (Becca Price) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:18:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] A Genius Explains In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050307231858.21644.qmail@web41009.mail.yahoo.com> --- BJ van Look wrote: > it really makes me wonder if savant-ness is an aspect of > synaesthesia.... well, I'm synaesthetic and I'm no savant. -becca __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --------________--------________-------- From scott.r.padget at boeing.com Mon Mar 7 23:21:04 2005 From: scott.r.padget at boeing.com (Padget, Scott R) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:21:04 -0600 Subject: [LMB] (no longer) Heinlein OT: Message-ID: <62F80D7D3ED3234B907FF0004C56CB890190429E@xch-se-20.se.nos.b oeing.com> I'm behind, as usual; sorry if this is a dead topic. Alexandra: > > At the time, there were women lawyers, MDs, engineers, > > architects, etc. Just not a whole lot of them, and they did Paula: > This looks like retconning to me. Note: Ms. Haropulos DID use the qualifier "not a whole lot of them". Given this fact, it appears that Paula is arguing that Alexandra is incorrect in her position that there were FEW women in "the professions" back in the Bad Old Days--Paula *appears* to be arguing the position that in truth there were NONE. Paula appears to have forgotten HER OWN life example. I'm not saying that it was easy or pleasant, but she DID IT HERSELF. In spades. Em-Eye-friggin'-Tee, many years of actual engineering experience in the military *and* in the private sector, memberships in professional associations, attendance at many large professional conferences, etc.--all accomplished through her own grit, intelligence, ability, and perseverence in the face of nonstop institutional and cultural oppression of the benighted era in question (the tail end of it, admittedly, but still...). She serves as a stellar *counter*example to *her own* argument, as her own oft-repeated testimony illustrates. Alexandra, I note, also serves as a counterexample to Paula's argument. But I'd like especially to point out the example of Paula herself. Rare, yes, but *not* nonexistent. Subject to some truly reprehensible treatment for violating the era's sacred social norms, yes, but *not* nonexistent. Unless, of course, *Paula* does not exist. And she does--I've *met* her. :-) To Ms. Haropulos: point, game, match. In a different post on the same topic, Paula clarified: > what I was trying to convey was that the Heinlein > heroine is more than competent at everything. Yes. True. Universal traits of the classic Heinlein heroine. The Heinlein heroine is invariably more competent THAN THE HERO, in fact. At virtually everything. While I can see that this may be unrealistic (though as I look at the women I've known I might be willing to argue otherwise), I think I'm missing the part in which this is somehow demeaning to *women*. If men are portrayed as women's superiors in nearly all respects, this is demeaning...to women. Okay. If women are portrayed as men's superiors in nearly all respects, this is demeaning...to women. Come again? Shouldn't at least ONE of those cases be demeaning to MEN? (I suspect the list's better mathematicians could apply a bit of symbolic logic here with either illuminating or amusing results.) Pilot Padget-- --------________--------________-------- From mtraber251 at earthlink.net Mon Mar 7 23:49:34 2005 From: mtraber251 at earthlink.net (M. Traber) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 18:49:34 -0500 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James In-Reply-To: <20050307.145049.3204.3.ginni.berger@juno.com> References: <20050307.145049.3204.3.ginni.berger@juno.com> Message-ID: <422CE88E.7000309@earthlink.net> ginnilee p berger wrote: > > Margali, you up for going? > > Ginnilee > Lady Lavender of Teal Might be fun=) I am not familiar with driving in Boston now the big dig thing has totally disarranged things=) but if we dont mind getting lost and lots of creative swearing =) -- -- For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling --------________--------________-------- From celticdragonfly at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 00:07:38 2005 From: celticdragonfly at gmail.com (Laura Gallagher) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:07:38 -0600 Subject: [LMB] (no longer) Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <-527870444126933448@unknownmsgid> References: <-527870444126933448@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <209a74ed05030716075653b280@mail.gmail.com> Scott Padget wrote: > Yes. True. Universal traits of the classic Heinlein heroine. The > Heinlein heroine is invariably more competent THAN THE HERO, in > fact. At virtually everything. > > While I can see that this may be unrealistic (though as I look at the > women I've known I might be willing to argue otherwise), I think I'm > missing the part in which this is somehow demeaning to *women*. You've been reading your Spider Robinson lately, haven't you? Which is amusing, since just at the moment I'm reading Spider Robinson myself, the collection of his essays I picked up at ConDFW. I would love to someday meet him in person and discuss some of it. I like Heinlein, so this is a response from the choir, really. But I think what some women get upset about with Heinlein women is that when they are more competent than the hero, they don't rub his nose in it. In fact, they often let him go on thinking otherwise, and then quietly go on getting their way. I think for some it's not enough to be better, without there being recognition for being better. I can sorta understand it. But I like Heinlein and it doesn't bother me in his writing. Most of the time, anyway. "Let There Be Light" makes me want to argue with the female protagonist. Laura Gallagher --------________--------________-------- From jbryant at lunainternet.net Mon Mar 7 23:11:56 2005 From: jbryant at lunainternet.net (James M. BRYANT, G4CLF) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 23:11:56 +0000 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James In-Reply-To: <200503071201.MAA26176@talia3.herald.co.uk> References: <200503071201.MAA26176@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050307230512.0201fc00@pop.lunainternet.net> I am leaving Boston on May 8th so will not be up for anything that day. Durgin Park is a possibility - many previous Boston MiniLoisCons have been held at Tanjore (Indian) in Eliot Street, Cambridge. James - just arrived in Warsaw --------________--------________-------- From agnes at charrel.net Tue Mar 8 00:33:21 2005 From: agnes at charrel.net (Agnes Charrel-Berthillier) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:33:21 -0800 Subject: [LMB] (no longer) Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <209a74ed05030716075653b280@mail.gmail.com> References: <-527870444126933448@unknownmsgid> <209a74ed05030716075653b280@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <422CF2D1.2090702@charrel.net> Laura Gallagher wrote: > But I think what some women get upset about with Heinlein women is > that when they are more competent than the hero, they don't rub his > nose in it. In fact, they often let him go on thinking otherwise, and > then quietly go on getting their way. I think for some it's not > enough to be better, without there being recognition for being > better. In some of the books, at least, it is a bit more than "not rub his nose in it" and closer to rather condescending manipulation. Which I find a tad annoying, although Heinlein introduced me to SF (my first SF read ever, _Have Space Suit Will Travel_, at 11) and I positively *loved* those heroines of his [1] when I became old enough to realize that some of my favorite books systematically put down girls... and that *I* was a girl. My 17-year old self, having read MZB, started looking at Heinlein in a slightly different fashion (that's when the whole "a male's fragile ego is a fragile thing that should not be bruised" thing started to grate), but I was still enjoying those books tremendously. At 32... I have the feeling some of these Heinlein heroins will feel irrealistic in completely different ways [2]. But I really should go back and re-read some of these books. Just to make sure, you know ;) Agnes [1] Now one can discuss the suitability of having Maureen Johnson as an idealized role model as a mostly physically mature 13 year old just starting high school, but that's another debate. [2] Hmmmm... Maureen's [lack of] reaction to being ditched by her husband, anybody? Ekaterin agonizing over the decision of leaving or not leaving Tien feels so much more real. --------________--------________-------- From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca Tue Mar 8 00:50:28 2005 From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James Burbidge) Date: 07 Mar 2005 19:50:28 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Any listies in Toronto? In-Reply-To: <422BFDE5.7010800@earthlink.net> References: <20050307031751.GD13769@fireopal.org> <209a74ed05030621151c19a7aa@mail.gmail.com> <422BFDE5.7010800@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1110243030.1177.0.camel@ilmarin> On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 02:08, M. Traber wrote: > > Scott Raun wrote? > > > >> http://www.viceversa.com/Dynamic/Products,intCategoryID,34,intItemID,1447.html > >> > > > I would also be interested in finding out how much they are and > where to get one, maybe for christmas... > > > I'll see what I can find out. I live in Markham, but I spend most of my time downtown, so it may take a little while for me to run this down... --------________--------________-------- From lioness at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 8 01:29:27 2005 From: lioness at bellsouth.net (Debbie) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 19:29:27 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Power fantasies was: (no longer) Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <62F80D7D3ED3234B907FF0004C56CB890190429E@xch-se-20.se.nos. b oeing.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050307185528.01cf6db0@mail.bellsouth.net> >If men are portrayed as women's superiors in nearly all respects, this is >demeaning...to women. Okay. If women are portrayed as men's superiors >in nearly all respects, this is demeaning...to women. Come >again? Shouldn't at least ONE of those cases be demeaning to MEN? > >Pilot Padget-- True study. About a decade ago the leading hot-shot future prognosticators were commissioned to study the future of women. These folks are pros. They are used to handling hot-button topics; their last two assignments had been the Middle East Crisis and finding a peaceful path out of apartheid. But they had never seen anything like the fuss that happened when they assembled the study groups for this topic. As one of the researchers put it, basically the men came in, dropped to their knees before the women and begged, "Please save us from ourselves! But let us take the credit for it, okay?" Their favorite research techniques, which had worked to get Blacks and Afrikaners sitting down talking together and Israelis and Palestinians sitting down talking together, completely fell apart when they tried to bridge the gender divide with them. Having the women save the day and then cede control back over to the men while they quietly return to the kitchen is an old male power fantasy that goes back at least to Lysistrata. It's the plot of the 1904 novel _The Marvelous Land of Oz_ which I'm reading the girls at the moment. There's a wonderful line where the Scarecrow has been deposed by a marauding army of girls and the men of Oz beg him to come back because they can't take the grueling regimen of housework and childcare. "So how did the women manage it?" the Scarecrow asks. "Women," he is told, "are made of cast iron!" Although to give Baum credit, his women characters were always much more powerful rulers than his male characters and eventually end up running all the kingdoms of Oz. Still, you can see why women would fantasize about having the heroine turn on the hero and say, "Oh no. I've cleaned up your messes and restored the kingdom to you twice already. I'm tired of you screwing up, so I'm keeping the reins of power this time. You go find a way to stay out of trouble." I think you'd find a lot of girl geeks grinning at that point in the story. Debbie http://www.brigidsforge.com Original sterling Gothic and Pagan jewelry "He hasn't been the same since his spirit guide discovered object-oriented programming." --------________--------________-------- From lioness at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 8 01:37:58 2005 From: lioness at bellsouth.net (Debbie) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 19:37:58 -0600 Subject: [LMB] (no longer) Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <422CF2D1.2090702@charrel.net> References: <209a74ed05030716075653b280@mail.gmail.com> <-527870444126933448@unknownmsgid> <209a74ed05030716075653b280@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050307193152.01d356e8@mail.bellsouth.net> >[2] Hmmmm... Maureen's [lack of] reaction to being ditched by her husband, >anybody? Ekaterin agonizing over the decision of leaving or not leaving >Tien feels so much more real. Annoying as all get out. Eventually I realized that while all of Heinlein's characters were exceptionally well-mannered in their interpersonal relationships, none of them felt any strong bonds to their mates. To paraphrase: "Both of us were married for 20 years and then we switched wives. The only difference it made was we had a different partner for bridge." Ugh. The only really strong bond in his corpus is between Long and Libbey, which got my 10yo brain wondered just what *did* go down on those long spaceflights after they ditched their latest pairs of wives. Seemed like more had to be happening than just poker games. Debbie http://www.brigidsforge.com Original sterling Gothic and Pagan jewelry "He hasn't been the same since his spirit guide discovered object-oriented programming." --------________--------________-------- From green.meddler at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 01:40:16 2005 From: green.meddler at gmail.com (Michael Kilgallen) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:40:16 -0700 Subject: [LMB] (no longer) Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050307193152.01d356e8@mail.bellsouth.net> References: <-527870444126933448@unknownmsgid> <209a74ed05030716075653b280@mail.gmail.com> <422CF2D1.2090702@charrel.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050307193152.01d356e8@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <28c46d870503071740537653ee@mail.gmail.com> . The only really strong bond in his corpus is between > Long and Libbey, which got my 10yo brain wondered just what *did* go down > on those long spaceflights after they ditched their latest pairs of > wives. Seemed like more had to be happening than just poker games. In the later books, didn't Libbey turn female? and acknowledge homosexuality? MK (new to the list but not to LMB or Heinlein) ***Oh Give Me A Clone, My Very Own Clone, With An X Instead Of A Y*** --------________--------________-------- From ginni.berger at juno.com Tue Mar 8 02:18:29 2005 From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:18:29 -0500 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James Message-ID: <20050307.211829.3016.1.ginni.berger@juno.com> On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 18:49:34 -0500 "M. Traber" writes: > ginnilee p berger wrote: > > > > > Margali, you up for going? > > > > Ginnilee > > Lady Lavender of Teal > Might be fun=) I am not familiar with driving in Boston now the > big dig thing has totally disarranged things=) but if we dont > mind getting lost and lots of creative swearing =) > Hmmm. Baltimore all over again? ;-) (G,D & R reaaaaaaaaal fast) Ginnilee Lady Lavender of Teal --------________--------________-------- From billie_t at fastmail.fm Tue Mar 8 02:26:09 2005 From: billie_t at fastmail.fm (Tracy MacShane) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:26:09 +1100 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <28c46d870503071740537653ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <-527870444126933448@unknownmsgid> <209a74ed05030716075653b280@mail.gmail.com> <422CF2D1.2090702@charrel.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050307193152.01d356e8@mail.bellsouth.net> <28c46d870503071740537653ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1110248769.29477.216792172@webmail.messagingengine.com> Can we now invoke the OT-3 rule regarding Heinlein, and male and female characters and gender relations and sexuality pertaining to Heinlein's works? I admit my bias: I found *all* of his characterisation (irrespective of gender) to be one-dimensional and not-particularly-convincing. I suspect it's mainly a generational thing, being born in the late 60s, and not coming across his works until more than 20 years after their prime - not that I think they're bad books at all (well, *some* of them are). Irrespective of all that, I think we have all chewed this topic over in its myriad ways. Can we pleeeease give it a rest? --------________--------________-------- From gudrun at vantienhoven.org Mon Mar 7 21:01:18 2005 From: gudrun at vantienhoven.org (Gudrun Stockman) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:01:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James In-Reply-To: <20050305.090010.2916.0.ginni.berger@juno.com> References: <20050305.090010.2916.0.ginni.berger@juno.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, ginnilee p berger wrote: > > There is a killer place to eat - fast sloppy service but big > > portions and an indian pudding to kill for=) I can never remember > > the name of the blasted place, but it is right in Faneiul > > Hall...however you spell *that* also=\ Durgin Park? www.durgin-park.com Gudrun --------________--------________-------- From pgranzeau at cox.net Tue Mar 8 03:55:16 2005 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 22:55:16 -0500 Subject: OT: upper body strength and warships, was re [LMB] Re: Lois-Bujold digest, Vol 1 #4788 - 20 msgs In-Reply-To: <200503071825.SAA28701@talia3.herald.co.uk> References: <06c601c52330$d09b05b0$0100a8c0@heaviside> <200503071825.SAA28701@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050307225218.034ebb50@pop.east.cox.net> At 13:24 03/07/2005, Gordon Jackson wrote: > Never the less redesigning and, especially, retro fitting, for warships is >a far from trivial exercise. There are other jobs requiring physical strenth >on warships, the main one that springs to mind being damage control (fire >fighting and flooding control), which is some thing every crewmember has to >be capable of doing. The obstacles can be overcome however, something the >Royal new Zealand Navy managed 17 yrs ago when it first posted women to sea >on warships. > > > > From: Tracy MacShane > > > Date: 07 March 2005 06:41 > > [...] > > > Exactly. A friend of mine is in the US Navy, and mentioned a test > > > which involves being able to turn some kind of wheel to open or shut > > > something within a specified amount of time. Virtually all females > > > fail the test initially, and even with practice, the pass rate is > > > something less than 50%. What immediately sprang to my mind was that > > > if it's opening or closing (or raising or lowering) something, it > > > has to be geared in some way. So why not design the thing so the > > > gearing works for a greater range of strengths? Bizarre that it's not >already. > > > > Since the USN has thirty year old shiips they would first have to > > change their design rules and then wait thirty years. Even then a ship > > brought >out > >No they wouldn't. They could replace the hatches and such a lot faster than >that if they felt like it--and probably do replace a lot of the mechanical >parts in hatches and such in a lot shorter cycle of time than thirty years. > >Equipment replacement happens all the time, especially of mechanical parts. >Something I learned in the military, mechanical linkage assembles such as >"rotary joints" and mechanical actuators are the things that tend to >operationally be the most trouble-prone equipment. I am sure that if you were dictator, that is what would happen. In the real world, however,... -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net --------________--------________-------- From lioness at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 8 02:54:33 2005 From: lioness at bellsouth.net (Debbie) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:54:33 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <1110248769.29477.216792172@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <28c46d870503071740537653ee@mail.gmail.com> <-527870444126933448@unknownmsgid> <209a74ed05030716075653b280@mail.gmail.com> <422CF2D1.2090702@charrel.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050307193152.01d356e8@mail.bellsouth.net> <28c46d870503071740537653ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050307205026.01c33318@mail.bellsouth.net> >Can we now invoke the OT-3 rule regarding Heinlein, and male and female >characters and gender relations and sexuality pertaining to Heinlein's works? S'okay with me. As has been noted earlier, he's a lot more like Piotr than he would care to admit. Anyone up to discussing Frank L. Baum or other pre-Pulp Era fantasists? There's no Tolkein clones there! I nearly hurt myself laughing when I realized Baum had sent up Mark Twain though. Debbie http://www.brigidsforge.com Original sterling Gothic and Pagan jewelry "He hasn't been the same since his spirit guide discovered object-oriented programming." --------________--------________-------- From louann at millerdome.com Tue Mar 8 05:10:26 2005 From: louann at millerdome.com (Louann Miller) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 23:10:26 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Brust In-Reply-To: <20050307231719.73565.qmail@web41001.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6667> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050307230942.01f13c20@mail07.powweb.com> At 03:17 PM 3/7/2005 -0800, Becca Price wrote: >I gotta admit I love the Paarfi books (500 Years After, The >Phoenix Guards, and so on) but lost interst in the Vlad Taltos >books as they got progressively darker. You might like the latest one, Issola, in that event. Some bad things happen, certainly, but the Jhereg aren't going to know what hit them if they try to give Vlad trouble after this... --------________--------________-------- From cessnadriver at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 05:33:45 2005 From: cessnadriver at gmail.com (James) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:33:45 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT:Slide Rule Watch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3b8ab98e05030721334d646404@mail.gmail.com> Those pilot watches are just a miniaturized version of the venerable E6B aviation circular slide rule. It's actually used for rate calculations, and more fine print models include unit conversion functions, airspeed and altitude calculations. Perhaps because I have an engineering background, but whenever we get to navigation in ground school (where we tend to use the whiz-wheel often), it's always fun to watch people struggle using it - of course, I do realize that practically everyone has grown up with calculators, not slide rules, but still. One of the biggest annoyances is how stiff my E6B still is even after all the use it's seen. Not easy to twirl while in the air to update all one's calculations. --------________--------________-------- From mtraber251 at earthlink.net Tue Mar 8 06:00:38 2005 From: mtraber251 at earthlink.net (M. Traber) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 01:00:38 -0500 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James In-Reply-To: References: <20050305.090010.2916.0.ginni.berger@juno.com> Message-ID: <422D3F86.1050604@earthlink.net> Gudrun Stockman wrote: > Durgin Park? www.durgin-park.com Yups=) I love indian pudding, and the food is good also=) -- -- For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling --------________--------________-------- From mtraber251 at earthlink.net Tue Mar 8 06:04:23 2005 From: mtraber251 at earthlink.net (M. Traber) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 01:04:23 -0500 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James In-Reply-To: <20050307.211829.3016.1.ginni.berger@juno.com> References: <20050307.211829.3016.1.ginni.berger@juno.com> Message-ID: <422D4067.1090005@earthlink.net> ginnilee p berger wrote: > On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 18:49:34 -0500 "M. Traber" > writes: >>Might be fun=) I am not familiar with driving in Boston now the >>big dig thing has totally disarranged things=) but if we dont >>mind getting lost and lots of creative swearing =) >> > > > Hmmm. Baltimore all over again? ;-) > > (G,D & R reaaaaaaaaal fast) > > Ginnilee > Lady Lavender of Teal lol...not my fault baltimore doesnt believe in making the maps match the actual roads, or naming the roads on visible signs, or actually putting up Rt XXX ---> signs... robs father was on the security for the LA olympics, before the games he drove around with a GPS making sure the maos matched the actual roads [and he said it was amazing how inaccurate the maps actually were] and then bomb squad for the actual olympics=) He said that something like in that area of LA, something like 25% of the roads weren't on the map, about 10% were not named the same as on the map, and about 10% of the roads on the map weren't there in real life...OY. And people wonder why I hate LA and would love to see it turned into a nice parking lot for Disneyland... -- -- For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling --------________--------________-------- From billie_t at fastmail.fm Tue Mar 8 05:56:16 2005 From: billie_t at fastmail.fm (Tracy MacShane) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 16:56:16 +1100 Subject: [LMB] RE: OT: upper body strength and warships In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050307225218.034ebb50@pop.east.cox.net> References: <06c601c52330$d09b05b0$0100a8c0@heaviside> <200503071825.SAA28701@talia3.herald.co.uk> <6.2.0.14.2.20050307225218.034ebb50@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <1110261376.13038.216802911@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 22:55:16 -0500, "Peter H. Granzeau" said: > At 13:24 03/07/2005, Gordon Jackson wrote: > > > [Gordon mentions that retro-fitting warships would cost a bomb] > > > [Paula points out that components wear out and are replaced all the time] > > > I am sure that if you were dictator, that is what would happen. In the > real world, however,... > Well, I wasn't suggesting that we run around and rip out all the badly designed machinery *right now*, as tempting as it may be. Obviously, that would be a huge expense (leaving aside my philosophical qualms about the huge expense in building weapons full stop... but that's not at debate here). However, I think Paula does have a reasonable point, in that componentry that does wear out could be replaced with new designs. And so too with any new ships that are commissioned - I know they aren't replaced frequently, but replaced they are, at some point. However, what that necessitates is appropriate engineering designs being available and a committment to put those designs in place, neither of which seem to be a priority in the US Navy (from what I understand). If some thought had been given to all this 30, 20, even 10 years ago, we would have a lot more "all strengths friendly" equipment around *now*. --------________--------________-------- From mtraber251 at earthlink.net Tue Mar 8 06:08:00 2005 From: mtraber251 at earthlink.net (M. Traber) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 01:08:00 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050307205026.01c33318@mail.bellsouth.net> References: <28c46d870503071740537653ee@mail.gmail.com> <-527870444126933448@unknownmsgid> <209a74ed05030716075653b280@mail.gmail.com> <422CF2D1.2090702@charrel.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050307193152.01d356e8@mail.bellsouth.net> <28c46d870503071740537653ee@mail.gmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050307205026.01c33318@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <422D4140.7020300@earthlink.net> Debbie wrote: > Anyone up to discussing Frank L. Baum or other pre-Pulp Era fantasists? > There's no Tolkein clones there! > > I nearly hurt myself laughing when I realized Baum had sent up Mark > Twain though. I could go for that, as long as we dont slip into the NOT L.F.B. oz books=) Do you think that all of our childhood books made it to Barrayar? Would be sort of nice to think so, or at least being told as fairly tales, after all we have the Emerald City of the capitol, and lots of provinces that are color coded=) -- -- For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! Rudyard Kipling --------________--------________-------- From megj at nwlink.com Tue Mar 8 05:50:50 2005 From: megj at nwlink.com (MegJ) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:50:50 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Math, sex, gengineering OT: References: <76.4e5cf90f.2f5d3afc@aol.com> <422BFEE0.7060105@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <025a01c523a4$796c3330$59c13442@meg> M. Traber: > I had a heck of a time in geometry... ROFL Yeah, me, too. Only bad grade I got in all of high school. Then I learned how to quilt. It's amazing how much fun geometry suddenly became after that. Megaera --------________--------________-------- From megj at nwlink.com Tue Mar 8 05:56:18 2005 From: megj at nwlink.com (MegJ) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:56:18 -0800 Subject: [LMB] tHH ARC References: <20050307.151114.3204.7.ginni.berger@juno.com> Message-ID: <025b01c523a4$7a0c91e0$59c13442@meg> I'll keep an eye out for it. Ginnilee, what day did you mail it out? Megaera > > I sent it off to her. I'm sorry it took so long, but my life's been > really weird lately. I switched to mailing it in a box, since it's > protecting the book better. All I did was take a box I already had, and > since it had writing all over the outside, we took it apart and turned it > inside out. > > Ginnilee > Lady Lavender of Teal > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold --------________--------________-------- From paal at gis.net Tue Mar 8 06:30:31 2005 From: paal at gis.net (Paula Lieberman) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:30:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] MiniLoisCons or The Travels of James References: <20050307.145049.3204.3.ginni.berger@juno.com> Message-ID: <094101c523a8$546573e0$0100a8c0@heaviside> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ginnilee p berger" > On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 02:12:36 -0500 "Paula Lieberman" > writes: > > I mentioned James' upcoming travel to Boston to Suford at the NESFA > > meeting > > which was a dozen hours ago. She'd like to participate if there is > > a > > dinner or some such. The NESFA Annual Meeting on Sunday May 8 is > > where > > she's probably going to be on May 8. > > -- > > Margali, you up for going? Where is James going to be staying? Getting -into- Boston gets expensive very quickly, parking can be extremely expensive there.... outside of Boston where there is free parking, and wider streets, and less traffic.... --------________--------________-------- From jacki at knightech.com.au Tue Mar 8 10:27:04 2005 From: jacki at knightech.com.au (Jacki Knight) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:27:04 +1100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Other Authors In-Reply-To: <20050306053532.GC26963@ofb.net> References: <20050306053532.GC26963@ofb.net> Message-ID: On 06/03/2005, at 4:35 PM, Damien Sullivan wrote: > On Sat, Mar 05, 2005 at 05:57:51PM +0000, Jessy Brody wrote: >> I know some ppl, including Tolkien fans (the kind that were fans >> before the films), like what Peter Jackson did well enough, but I have >> developed a severe aversion somehow. And now, thinking back to > > I found much to grumble about coming out of the first movie. (I *did* > read > the Silmarillion, and more.) Some people came out of the second movie > grumbling, I listended, and decided not to see the second or third. I'm getting to feel really weird here. Is there anyone else on the list who decided to finally go and try to read those books _because_ they liked the films so much? ISTR I was well past 40 when that happened - and I still didn't manage to slog the whole way through. Jacki in Canberra - whose older brother obsessed about them in high school and d*mn near put her off for life - thank you Mr Jackson! --------________--------________-------- From azurite at rogers.com Tue Mar 8 11:51:16 2005 From: azurite at rogers.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 06:51:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: [LMB] OT: Other Authors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050308115116.46822.qmail@web88109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Jacki Knight wrote regarding Tolkien: > Is there anyone else on the list who decided to > finally go and try to > read those books _because_ they liked the films so > much? I've been a fan of these books since my teens. I adore them. I went to see the movies - all of them - and I adore them too. I don't see a problem, either way. namaste, Elizabeth --------________--------________-------- From altpouncer at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 11:58:03 2005 From: altpouncer at yahoo.com (POUNCER) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 03:58:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LMB] OT: AKICOTL: Greek In-Reply-To: <200503080553.FAA32641@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050308115803.23910.qmail@web30509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Archimedes ran naked and dripping wet down the street yelling "Eureka, Eureka! " meaning "I've got it, I've got it." (His neighbors no doubt thought, "He's lost it.") That's an Asimov bit. But what Asimov did NOT provide was the Greek for "He's lost it." I have opportunity to use such an expression from time to time. Help please? While we're at it -- are there any other famous Greek or Latin expressions that need antonyms? Like "Cavet Emptor" or however it goes -- don't we need an expression wishing the market good luck? That sort of thing ... __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --------________--------________-------- From jacki at knightech.com.au Tue Mar 8 12:02:41 2005 From: jacki at knightech.com.au (Jacki Knight) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:02:41 +1100 Subject: [LMB] Melbourne mini-con Message-ID: <414cdf4536a4136353d97facdf997dc3@knightech.com.au> Thanks to all the Melbourne listies (Iestyn, Merrian, Melissa and [honorary] Eric) who met us for dinner last Wednesday. A great time was had by all - much talking, laughter and discussions of all types. I was going to post a photo to our website except that I found out on Thursday (in the middle of a race at the GP) that I'd actually neglected to put any film in the camera........ Jacki (back) in Canberra - the dunderheaded --------________--------________-------- From iosef at gothic.net.au Tue Mar 8 12:09:07 2005 From: iosef at gothic.net.au (I) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 23:09:07 +1100 Subject: [LMB] OT: AKICOTL: Greek In-Reply-To: <20050308115803.23910.qmail@web30509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200503080553.FAA32641@talia3.herald.co.uk> <20050308115803.23910.qmail@web30509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050308230710.01dd38d0@localhost> At 10:58 PM 8/03/2005, POUNCER wrote: >While we're at it -- are there any other famous Greek or >Latin expressions that need antonyms? Like "Cavet Emptor" >or however it goes -- don't we need an expression wishing >the market good luck? That sort of thing ... Cavet Emptor is "Buyer beware", I don't think we need, "Buyer be stupid" in current times: its called advertising. Iestyn --------________--------________-------- From ccfinlay at earthlink.net Tue Mar 8 13:23:15 2005 From: ccfinlay at earthlink.net (Charles Coleman Finlay) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:23:15 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Other Authors In-Reply-To: <200503081201.MAA02047@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Regarding Tolkien: > I've been a fan of these books since my teens. I > adore them. I went to see the movies - all of them - > and I adore them too. I don't see a problem, either > way. > > namaste, > Elizabeth I'm with Elizabeth on this. There was a time when _The Lord of the Rings_ were my favorite comfort books, and I read them once or twice a year. (_The Vor Game_ seems to be that book for me these days.) In any case, the books are very important to me. I love the movies too. -C. --------________--------________-------- From ccfinlay at earthlink.net Tue Mar 8 13:35:42 2005 From: ccfinlay at earthlink.net (Charles Coleman Finlay) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:35:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: OT: Other Authors In-Reply-To: <200503080553.FAA32637@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: > Anyone up to discussing Frank L. Baum or other pre-Pulp Era > fantasists? The Baum books were some of the favorite bedtime stories for my kids, especially _Rinkitink_. But what Heinlein is to women, for some people, Baum is to racial issues, so... -C. --------________--------________-------- From Mervi.Hamalainen at uta.fi Tue Mar 8 13:39:50 2005 From: Mervi.Hamalainen at uta.fi (Mervi.Hamalainen at uta.fi) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:39:50 +0200 Subject: [LMB] OT: Other Authors In-Reply-To: <200503081201.MAA02055@talia3.herald.co.uk> References: <200503081201.MAA02055@talia3.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <1110289190.422dab26bda28@imp1.uta.fi> > From: Elizabeth Holden > regarding Tolkien: > > I've been a fan of these books since my teens. I > adore them. I went to see the movies - all of them - > and I adore them too. I don't see a problem, either way. Me neither. I liked the books in my teens, but have never been a big fan. I love the movies, though. Mervi --------________--------________-------- From ginni.berger at juno.com Tue Mar 8 13:39:25 2005 From: ginni.berger at juno.com (ginnilee p berger) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:39:25 -0500 Subject: [LMB] tHH ARC Message-ID: <20050308.084458.3876.0.ginni.berger@juno.com> On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:56:18 -0800 "MegJ" writes: > I'll keep an eye out for it. Ginnilee, what day did you mail it > out? > > Megaera > Yesterday. It's priority mail. ;-) Ginnilee Lady Lavender of Teal --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Tue Mar 8 14:37:03 2005 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 09:37:03 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Spellchecking References: <20050307220254.71459.qmail@web50004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <422DB88F.93CC1866@erols.com> Anna Blumstein wrote: > The problem with spell checkers is one needs to at lest some what close to correct or the spell checker is no help. Most of the time I'm close enough but sometimes I'm not. True. But it's a start. I never really had much spelling ability until I started using spelling checkers. And I still can't spell "chief" worth a durn. > I have never found grammar checkers at a helpful, even with simple things like homonyms. No. Grammar checkers stink. The good news is that the spelling checker does help over time (after being corrected often enough, it will stick). And they do make you re-read your post several times and find other things as well. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or cruel here. I genuinely am trying to help. Good communications skills are one of the most important things you will have throughout your lifetime, and written skills are now more important than ever with the ubiquity of e-mail. --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Tue Mar 8 14:39:24 2005 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 09:39:24 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT:Slide Rule Watch References: Message-ID: <422DB91C.63142859@erols.com> Christine Forber wrote: > My husband has an aviation watch that has a slide rule > around the outside. I think it is for fuel calculations, if > memory serves me correctly. And navigation and weight balancing, too. I never really grocked slide rules until the circular one I got for flight school math. They seem much easier to use, for some reason. --------________--------________-------- From louann at millerdome.com Tue Mar 8 14:44:07 2005 From: louann at millerdome.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:44:07 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Other Authors In-Reply-To: <20050308115116.46822.qmail@web88109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050308083921.01f02380@mail07.powweb.com> At 06:51 AM 3/8/2005 -0500, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > --- Jacki Knight wrote >regarding Tolkien: > > > Is there anyone else on the list who decided to > > finally go and try to > > read those books _because_ they liked the films so > > much? > >I've been a fan of these books since my teens. I >adore them. I went to see the movies - all of them - >and I adore them too. I don't see a problem, either >way. I read them in high school but didn't enjoy them that much -- spent most of "The Two Towers" fuming that the Frodo plot was stopped dead at a cliffhanger while all these other characters futzed around. I did better several years later when I'd had some experience reading really long novels, e.g. Victorian ones. My brain at 16 just wasn't geared to a book that told the entire saga of the War of the Ring as opposed to a linear 'one guy saves the day' plot. I didn't manage the Silmarillion until last year, though. --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Tue Mar 8 14:44:31 2005 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 09:44:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Power fantasies was: (no longer) Heinlein OT: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050307185528.01cf6db0@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <422DBA4F.4ED7813A@erols.com> Debbie wrote: > As one of the > researchers put it, basically the men came in, dropped to their knees > before the women and begged, "Please save us from ourselves! But let us > take the credit for it, okay?" I think it was Reagan who kept a sign on his desk that said something to the effect that "There is no limit to what you can achieve if you are willing to let other people take the credit." So, which do we want more - to save the world, or get credit for saving the world? (I think I'm a special exception on this one. I don't want the credit, I just want to get paid.) --------________--------________-------- From lioness at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 8 15:10:55 2005 From: lioness at bellsouth.net (Debbie) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 09:10:55 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Power fantasies was: (no longer) Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <422DBA4F.4ED7813A@erols.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050307185528.01cf6db0@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050308090559.041096f8@mail.bellsouth.net> >I think it was Reagan who kept a sign on his desk that said something to >the effect that "There is no limit to what you can achieve if you are >willing to let other people take the credit." > >So, which do we want more - to save the world, or get credit for saving >the world? IIRC there's an opening monologue in _The Incredibles_ on this. What we want is for the world to stay saved, instead of unraveling again next week because we turned it back over to the same bozos who messed it up in the first place. >(I think I'm a special exception on this one. I don't want the credit, I >just want to get paid.) Cash or in kind up front. But credit is like stock, if you're careful and you're lucky it'll eventually be worth something. Debbie http://www.brigidsforge.com Original sterling Gothic and Pagan jewelry "He hasn't been the same since his spirit guide discovered object-oriented programming." --------________--------________-------- From nbombay at mindspring.com Tue Mar 8 15:30:24 2005 From: nbombay at mindspring.com (Nora Bombay) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:30:24 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [LMB] OT: AKICOL - Parker Vector Pens Message-ID: <3750630.1110295824281.JavaMail.root@wamui04.slb.atl.earthli nk.net> A question for the people on list who are pen aficionado's. (I know you exist) I want to order two or three Parker Vector Rollerball Pens. They should retail for about $6 each. I can find the Parker XL, which is not what I want. I want just the basic plastic cheap pen. But I seem to be able to find them only as a part of the Vector Caligraphy set, which isn't what I want, or on single sale in India. In the US, they seem to be exclusively the province of the companies that make promotional products. At $6 they are far too low end for a company like Levenger, or any of the big pen sites. But they don't seem to be carried by any of the mass retailers. The one I have is imprinted with the logo of a company I've never heard of. I like the way this writes, I like the price point. And all I want is to be able to have one at home, one at work, and one in my purse. Anybody have any suggestions? Because I don't really think that it's worth having one shipped from India. N.B. Who does find this ironic, as she's also walking about with a bluetooth keyboard at all times. --------________--------________-------- From iosef at gothic.net.au Tue Mar 8 15:33:25 2005 From: iosef at gothic.net.au (I) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 02:33:25 +1100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Spellchecking In-Reply-To: <422DB88F.93CC1866@erols.com> References: <20050307220254.71459.qmail@web50004.mail.yahoo.com> <422DB88F.93CC1866@erols.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050309022837.03452b08@localhost> At 01:37 AM 9/03/2005, Alexandra Haropulos wrote: >durn. > > > I have never found grammar checkers at a helpful, even with simple > things like homonyms. > >No. Grammar checkers stink. > >The good news is that the spelling checker does help over >time (after being corrected often enough, it will stick). >And they do make you re-read your post several times and >find other things as well. Not always... dyslexia wins in the end. Remembering which endings will still trigger because my spell checker is US only, rather than Australian or UK. I agree that grammar checkers stink. I once tried to write an assignment for an LLB with the grammar checker on. Passive voice underlines the entire written area in green. Iestyn (Australian who tends to UK usage when possible.) --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Tue Mar 8 15:43:17 2005 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 10:43:17 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Power fantasies References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050307185528.01cf6db0@mail.bellsouth.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050308090559.041096f8@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <422DC815.67DDD002@erols.com> Debbie wrote: > Cash or in kind up front. But credit is like stock, if you're careful and > you're lucky it'll eventually be worth something. That's two ifs too many for me. I'll take cash on the barrelhead, thank you. Note that (to keep this on-topic) Cordelia has won at the old game not because she wanted to, but because she had to. Does focus your attention. Alex H. retired at 50 with a paid-off mortgage and investment income --------________--------________-------- From whouseknecht at hotmail.com Tue Mar 8 15:56:28 2005 From: whouseknecht at hotmail.com (Wayne B. Houseknecht) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:56:28 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: AKICOL - Parker Vector Pens References: <3750630.1110295824281.JavaMail.root@wamui04.slb.atl.earthli nk.net> Message-ID: Hm. When I google on parker vector rollerball: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=parker+vector+rollerball ..among other results I get a sponsored link to a site in Texas, thus: https://www.kingpen.net/ge_subclass.jsp?class=095PK&desc=Parker They seem to have what you're looking for, and in the quantities (or lack thereof) desired. Good luck! Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nora Bombay" > A question for the people on list who are pen aficionado's. > > I want to order two or three Parker Vector Rollerball Pens. They should retail for about $6 each. I can find the Parker XL, which is not what I want. > > I want just the basic plastic cheap pen. > > Anybody have any suggestions? Because I don't really think that it's worth having one shipped from India. --------________--------________-------- From aharo at erols.com Tue Mar 8 16:01:12 2005 From: aharo at erols.com (Alexandra Haropulos) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:01:12 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Spellchecking References: <20050307220254.71459.qmail@web50004.mail.yahoo.com> <422DB88F.93CC1866@erols.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050309022837.03452b08@localhost> Message-ID: <422DCC48.64BA02F0@erols.com> Iestyn wrote: > Not always... dyslexia wins in the end. Mmm, not exactly. From some dyslexic people I know, and from some studies that have been done, it appears that you can successfully train a different segment of your brain to take over the task. It just takes some determination and some time. I do know that for many years I had a simple problem with "b" and "d". It eventually went away, I assume because it annoyed me enough to "fix" it (whatever it was that I did). --------________--------________-------- From marna at marna.ca Tue Mar 8 16:08:17 2005 From: marna at marna.ca (Marna Nightingale) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:08:17 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Spellchecking In-Reply-To: <422DCC48.64BA02F0@erols.com> References: <20050307220254.71459.qmail@web50004.mail.yahoo.com> <422DB88F.93CC1866@erols.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050309022837.03452b08@localhost> <422DCC48.64BA02F0@erols.com> Message-ID: <422DCDF1.9090004@marna.ca> Alexandra Haropulos wrote: > Iestyn wrote: > > >> Not always... dyslexia wins in the end. > Mmm, not exactly. From some dyslexic people I know, and from some > studies that have been done, it appears that you can successfully > train a different segment of your brain to take over the task. IME, sort of. In my case, 'sort of' means that the number of words I have memorized by brute force increases yearly. Also, spellcheckers are good if you're like me and a) KNOW that you have spelled the word wrong but b) CANNOT remember how to spell it right. Learning how to spot when a word is wrong appears to be much easier for me than learning how to spell it correctly. Iestyn, are you going to take that kind of garbage from your spell checker? You have to show them who's boss, is all. This admittedly means figuring out how to delete the wrongly spelled words as well as add the right ones, but it can be done. And if it can't, you need a different word processor. Marna. --------________--------________-------- From skyefire at skyefire.org Tue Mar 8 15:02:10 2005 From: skyefire at skyefire.org (David McMillan) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 10:02:10 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Book club questions (moving OT:) Heinlein In-Reply-To: <166701c52063$efe12cd0$0100a8c0@heaviside> References: <20050303.150617.336.0.ginni.berger@juno.com> <166701c52063$efe12cd0$0100a8c0@heaviside> Message-ID: <422DBE72.3030703@skyefire.org> Paula Lieberman wrote: >The good news and the bad news about Heinlein and female characters--the >good news was that he sometimes actually had women in his stories, and there >were more than Trophy Wives. The bad news is that he was still a product of >his time and culture, and his women had a tendency to be superwomen "The >females on Ganymede would have the chicken killed, plucking , and cooking >before an Earthside girl would've stopped screaming" -- paraphrased out of >Farmer in the Sky. > > Well, switch Earth/City and Ganymede/Farm, and I've actually *seen* this. Okay, not *exactly* that, but I know where RAH was coming from on that one. Besides, FITS is one of RAH's first-person narrated works, and RAH was a master of the "undependable narrator." I never found early-RAH's female characters all that improbable, despite being born in 1972. Perhaps I was lucky in reading them mostly in publication order. But I grew up around women who filled most, though not all, of RAH's template: smart, tough, confident, able to keep a family fed and housed on a sub-poverty income. The oldldictum about boys wanting a woman "just like Mom" probably helps explain why I wanted to meet Peewee, or Poddy, or any of the several others, so bad. That, and they were *girls* who *liked* guys like me -- socially inept gadget geeks. Until I got to college, I was convinced RAH was making them up as part of the universe's cruel ongoing joke at my expense... (Oops. Sorry. Hit the self-pity button there. :)) Honesty compels me to admit, though, that when I encountered RAH's later works post-puberty, my motivations for wanting to meet Heinleinian females took on, erm, extra dimensions. >Someone mentioned Citizen of the Galaxy, that was one of my favorite books >when I was a child. But I haven'[t done any rereading of any Heinlein in >years. > > Wow. I haven't sat down with Thorby in *years.* Gotta look him up again. A lot of Heinleinian charas are old friends. Some of them (Kip and DB Davis in particular) are particularly to blame for me ending up in my current career. For which I should thank them, thoroughly (where *are* my knives?). >For those looking for a seriously warped story, go find "All You Zombies." >It starts off with the first person protagonist in the bar drinking Old >Underwear I think he called the booze, and thinking to himself about the >Unwed Mother. That's how it -starts-. If you don't want to deal with >twisted story, keep away from this one! > > AYZ has a twisted *concept,* yes, but IMO there's nothing really squicky about it -- no rated-R bits, IIRC. And it's a great historical example of "concept" SF, as well as how to write a good short story. And, heck, compared to a lot of modern-day "Ranma 1/2" fanfiction, it's downright *tame.* (which is, perhaps, damning with faint praise...) --------________--------________-------- From skyefire at skyefire.org Tue Mar 8 15:25:56 2005 From: skyefire at skyefire.org (David McMillan) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 10:25:56 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Re: Heinlein OT: In-Reply-To: <42289139.52EF8FD@erols.com> References: <20050304145602.23327.qmail@web53704.mail.yahoo.com> <42289139.52EF8FD@erols.com> Message-ID: <422DC404.5070808@skyefire.org> Alexandra Haropulos wrote: >There is some truth to that, but only some. Heinlein firmly >believed that men had the responsibility to do the ultimate >dirty work: fight and die if need be for their families, >homes and nations. Note, also, that he does not disallow >women in that role. Also, his women only ACT as if they are >dependent - just about every one winds up running whatever >she chooses or needs to run. The best example of this is >Maureen in _TSBtS_, when she goes from being a full-time >wife to being a corporate magnate > > Or Dr. Stone from "The Rolling Stones." For all that she spends most of the book being practically invisible, the one time she puts herself forward and her foot down, her husband folds like a wet deck of cards. Kip's description of his parents, in "Have Space Suit, Will Travel" hit me between the eyes like a sledgehammer when I read it at ~12yrs of age. I've never looked at my mother the same way since. It was, literally, a paradigm-shifting experience. It made me *aware* of something I'd never known I knew, like making a fish aware of water. From an uninformed perspective, my mother probably looks like a classical subservient suburban housewife, but nothing could be further from the truth. She and Dad just divvied up the familial responsibilities whatever way worked best -- the fact that that division largely follows class