[LMB] An article referencing Herself at sequentialtart

[Paula Lieberman]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sylvus Tarn" <sylvus at rejiquar.com>


> On Sat, 2006-08-19 at 21:03 -0700, Tracy MacShane wrote:
>> I think it's _World's End_ you're referring to with Joan Vinge. But
>> yes, fantastic books.
>>
> Um, yes.  Whoopsie!
>>
>>
>> I'm glad I'm not the only one. I thought it's because I'm not
>> heterosexual, but plenty of normal romance "works" for me just fine. I
>> don't like BDSM subtext, really. I prefer it to be overt, so that I
>> can assess if it's the squicky kind and avoid it, if necessary.
>>
> Oh, is *that* what it is?  I never could figure it out.  Talk about
> clueless!  The weird thing is, I do just fine with the romance in the
> Kushiel books, even though those are (I assume) BSDM too.  But from what
> I've gathered reading about BSDM on feminsist blogs is that those kinks
> don't, or at least need not, have any impact on the rest of your life,
> so far as equality is concerned.

The political issues arise where people don't appreciated being excoriated 
and condemned for "alternate sexuality" lifestyles when the people involved 
are consenting adults--who appreciates being called e.g. "pervert" and being 
the subject of hell and brimstone sermons and targeted by ambitious 
politicians looking for Causes to campaign and hatemonger with?   Being 
thrown in jail and having the key tossed for consenting sexual activity in 
private with other adults, is a political issue in the sense that if the 
laws direct that,  those people who engage in the forbidden activites, or 
are attracted to it, risk their freedom sometimes even talking about it!

When I was in high school I looked up the sections of the Massachusetts 
General Laws on the subject of "Laws against Chastity."  They kept 
mentioning "the unnatural act" without further definition--presumably Ethan 
of Athos and his partners, would be condemned to long unpleasant jail 
sentences.  Later those laws were generally set aside, but that was -later-. 
The lifestyles on Athos, in some parts of the world even today I think, can 
carry a capital crime death sentence punishment--it's why one of the 
foreignors who came to what today is the USA and fought for USA indepence, 
came across the Atlantic in the first place apparently, he'd been identified 
as engaging in homosexual activity and in his case it wasn't going to be 
tolerated, he was facing a probably death sentence if he stayed in Europe!

BDSM activities involve a range of particular tastes and activities, and 
some people enjoy various of them and not others, and some people are 
indifferent to all of, and some people get squicked by some or all.  But 
them, some people love tomatoes and some are massively allergic to them. 
The Kushiel books, Mercenaries by Angela Knight, etc.,  have content in them 
that involves consensual BDSM sexual activities, someone who finds them 
outright offensive, those books are not suitable reading material for... nor 
are the books by e.g. Sharon Green involving spanking (I was checking to see 
if there had ever been a sequel written to a particular novel published by 
DAW before DAW Books dropped her work; it was not one that involved 
spanking--however, there apparently is a particular market segments that 
likes books with spanking in them, and the bottom line of commercial fiction 
is that it is -commercial--one writes what one can get -paid- for so one can 
keep the roof over one's head, the food on the table, clothing, 
transportation...), or all those vampire-werewolf paranormal books that have 
all sorts of kinks in them (furry!).  If the material is too squicky for the 
particular reader or the reader otherwise can't or doesn't want to deal with 
the content, there are lots of -other- books around that focus on vanilla, 
and sometimes even some that lack "adult content" completely or almost 
completely.

Lois' books -sometimes- don't have adult content, and sometimes too, writers 
differ in the level of explicity and kinkiness in  their work, and it 
differs from story to story.  And there are some parts of e.g. the romance 
market, that explicitness is almost mandatory!

There are publishers which specialize in particular areas--Circlet Press 
publishes SF/F explicit material, especially BDSM and same gender erotica 
and sapient interspecies sex  ("practices rishathra!").  There are 
publishers which probably would tend to not do explicit, I'm thinking of 
e.g. Bethany  House and other Christian fiction publishers, there's the 
entire subgenre of Christian SF/F where there is strong use of allegory.   I 
know there is a lot of it out there, but it tends to be distributed through 
e.g. Christian bookstores, I haven't seen any of it lately in the SF/F 
section at e.g. Barnes & Noble.  It doesn't get me as a reader, for reasons 
including a strong aversion to most allegory, and not having the particular 
outlook that resonates positively with most overtly strongly 
Christian-focused fiction.   I prefer more literal interpretation of 
characters and situations than looking for allegory, and the particular 
tacit assumption core values involve a worldview that I don't have.

>> I'd include Melissa Scott's Trouble and Her Friends, and also one of
>> the fantasy books she wrote with Lisa A. Barnett (I forgot the name,
>> but it's a gay couple). And what about Anne McCaffrey? Most of her
>> works, SF and otherwise, have strong romance elements.
>
> Will have to check 'em out.  Well, excepting McCaffrey.  I thought her
> earlier stuff---Ship Who Sang, the first six dragon books---her best,
> but even so, don't know that I could go back.  I have a suspicion Lessa
> and F'lar would not stand up to feminist critiquing very well.  Jaxom

The work was written in the mid-1960s, like 1965 or 1966, which was a long 
time ago in terms of gender relations and roles and expectations in the 
USA--back when it was written, there were NO female airline pilots--they 
were de facto banned by Northwest, American, Pan Am, United, Delta, etc.--  
no female military pilots--first class of them was in 1976 or 1977, no women 
attending military academies or the Coast Guard Academy or the Merchant 
Marine academy, there were laws restricting the work that women could do and 
the hours they could work.... fiction has be to looked at through a filter 
of -when- it was written and what the culture was like, that it was written 
in and for.  Marion Zimmer Bradly in the 1960s or 1950s wrote a novel with a 
female starship captain, and it was rejected because of that, publishers 
wouldn't publish a book by her with a female starship captain.  Van Vogt had 
gotten away with having one in the 1940s, as an exception, but he at the 
time I think was a much bigger name writer than MZB when her book was 
getting rejected.

Dragonflight/the stories that it consists of, were written out of a society 
which DID restrict women, and which those attitudes in the book, were less 
restrictive that the general US culture at the time.

> certainly wouldn't.  And I thought Menolly (and the author) should've
> gone with her heart, that is the old Harper (Robinton, Robinson,
> something like that, I think---it's been *many* years), who was, let's
> be honest both her father-figure and twue wuv, however much Menolly &
> author tried to transfer her affections to the young guy---even if there
> *was* a 50 year age difference.  The one about the telekinetic was

Again, those works were written in a different time than today and reflect 
different social conditions and assumptions and values.

> irritating, and the one about her daughter and the third rate telepath
> (Afra) was even more so.  Just irritated me something awful, though I
> didn't have the tools until recently to understand *why*.