[LMB] Predators vs. Protectors

[Azalais Aranxta]

On Sun, 3 Jun 2007, Richard Suitor wrote:

> On 6/3/07, Marna Nightingale <marna at marna.ca> wrote:
> >
> > As to the particular madness of young men, the evidence doesn't back you
> > up. Young men can absolutely manage themselves, if they are made to, and
> > they must be made to, for their own sakes as well as for women's.
>
> I submit that this is internally inconsistent.   The second sentence says
> exactly what I was trying to convey, while the first refutes it.  I am quite
> happy to accept the 2d sentence.  As well as your professional experience.

The evidence doesn't back you up that they can't control
themselves, if they are told, repeatedly, that they must.

Frankly my sex drive has always been the equal of any man's but
I've never raped anyone; the idea is horrifying.  I've been
frustrated enough that I'd do crazy things to Get Some in my
youth, but you know, it always needed to be with somebody decent
and crazy things never included taking it by force.

> How to achieve "they must be made to"  (and young women both,
> of course) is the problem.  I don't think I was trying to
> convey anything more than that some, in modern society as well
> as others, aren't made to.

If you teach empathy for others, defending the weak, care and
concern, and make sure they know that rape is unthinkable,
untenable, unacceptable and wrong, and that you WILL NOT support
them if they do it, and make it clear that it is completely
unacceptable to question what someone was wearing, or laugh it
off, when someone is attacked--if you don't laugh about the girl
who goes into a boxer's hotel room or the girl who dares to have
some drinks at a frat party and gets a dose of roofies--they will
get the idea.

The ones who think they can get away with it have seen that
attitude modelled.  And quite possibly close to home.

> > Of course, if we continue to assure young men that they are
> > peculiarly burdened with dominant tendancies and overwhelming
> > sexual desires, and that dealing with it without abusing
> > others is terribly hard and qualifies one for sainthood
> > instead of merely for the right to go out unsupervised,
> > doubtless they will continue to believe us.

Exactly.  People live up to the expectations you have of them.
Or down to them, as you said.  If it's made clear that girls are
fully human beings, rather than a mysterious class of creature
that has the power to bestow or deny the ultimate delight (but is
exquisitely physically vulnerable), boys won't rape them.

> What I object to is the hope that, should society not sufficiently present
> these expectations, young women should still have nothing to worry about.

That's not at all what anyone here was saying.  If I am in the
presence of barbarians I know quite well to be careful.  It's the
attitude that we should continue to raise barbarians, madonnas
and whores that I am refusing to accept.

Men don't need to be socialised to see women as mysterious and
fragile.  They just need to be socialised to see us as human
beings!

~malfoy :)
****************************************************************
Azalais Aranxta (~malfoy)
ataniell93 on LiveJournal and Vox
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/malfoymadness

"I know the true world, and you know I do. But we needn't let it
think we all bow down." --Christopher Morley