[LMB] a funny thing happened, was Gender roles

[Azalais Aranxta]

On Sun, 3 Jun 2007, Tzivia Adler wrote:

> > As for how people lived in the past, I'm a strong believer in
> > "Everyone did what they had to, and made the most of it." The
> > theory that all men were swine and/or all women, sheep has
> > never appealed to me. That most of them were fish unaware of
> > the water which was their social system, I will grant you.
> > And, BTW, slaves and peasants were in an analogous position
> > vis-a-vis their masters.
> >
> > "That was then, This is now." If you can keep it.
>
> slaves and peasants were manipulative to get power? do tell.
> how else could they get it?

Part of the pernicious nature of hierarchies, once they're
allowed to become entrenched and are legally enforced, is that
there's more than one kind of power.

In fact there are many kinds.

In a system where men have legal and physical power over women,
men are still human and so are women.  Men want love, which
cannot be compelled, even though outwardly loving behaviours can
be.  Women want power or at least self determination, and if they
cannot legally have it they will find a way to get it.

Sexually abused children sometimes behave like sexually powerful
adults.  The reason for this is that the behaviour works in
allowing them to get what they want and/or need in homes where
simply being a child hasn't worked the way it should.

The classic femmes fatales?  Women who have learnt to use men's
drives to manipulate men into giving them what they want.  A lot
of it seems ludicrous nowadays, but it worked, and for women who
were unable to tolerate the lives of the Good Woman in their era,
or who were disqualified because they were no longer pure, not
always of their own choice, it was often the best option.

Slaves frequently preyed upon the immense sense of incompetence
some privileged people had when they realised they had no idea
how a lot of the things that needed to happen in their daily
lives actually worked.  They became "indispensible."  Slaves also
sometimes used sexual manipulation, as their bodies were not
their own and the only way to combat sexual abuse was sometimes
to manipulate it.  Slaves and masters sometimes fell in love, but
the relationship was always slightly tainted by the knowledge of
what the master could do to the slave and the slave's knowledge
of how other slaves might feel about the situation.

People will find ways to manipulate the most horrible systems
imaginable and sometimes thrive there.

In addition to this, some people, regardless of the position in
life to which they are born, are just plain charismatic, and some
are profoundly wise, and in both cases people may unconsciously
defer to them regardless of their station.  Many charismatic
leaders for good or ill come from fairly humble origins.  The
early Christian era, before the Nicene suppression of
non-imperially-approved Christian cults, was an era in which many
women held tremendous social and spiritual power due to their
involvement with the new religion.  Religion--particularly
alternative religions, which get little to no support from
patriarchy and therefore have no reason to reinforce it--are
often an arena in which unhappy, intelligent, driven women can
get heard and obtain a measure of social satisfaction.

I disagree with Thad about none of that.  What I disagree with
him over is that the fact some people could thrive and others
survive under an unfair social system makes that system okay.

> but - this made me think of the phrase, 'a funny thing happened on the way
> to the forum.'
>
> which is either a book or a movie (or a broadway play?) that i have never
> seen, but have heard referenced so many times in this context taht it sprang
> immediately to mind.  which is ridiculous.

It's a play, and I think it's also a movie.  I've seen it. :)

~malfoy :)

****************************************************************
Azalais Aranxta (~malfoy)
ataniell93 on LiveJournal and Vox
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/malfoymadness

"I know the true world, and you know I do. But we needn't let it
think we all bow down." --Christopher Fry