[LMB] OT: Gender roles (was Predators vs. Protectors)

[Azalais Aranxta]

On Mon, 4 Jun 2007, Louann Miller wrote:

> Joel Polowin wrote:
> > "Thad Coons" <tocoons at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> There is a persistent strain of feminist thought that
> >> suggests that women do not need men (except as sperm donors
> >> in case they decide to have a baby).
> >
> > That is moderately common amongst the radical feminists, yes.
> >
> I keep hearing about these radical feminists. Sometimes with capital
> letters and vowel substitutions. But like Bigfoot videos, every time I
> look close enough to see details it turns out to be something else.

Louann FTW (For The Win!)

> I think (turning my address to Thad) that you're treating
> "need" as a geometric point. Or at least a narrow line, with "I
> would die without you!" on one side of it, and "you are a waste
> of oxygen, go recycle yourself for dog food" on the other.

That's the sense I'm getting, too, and I've been in a
relationship with a man who NEEEEEEEEEEEEEDED me.  Never, ever
again, not even if it means I have to sell it on the corner.  Oh
LORD.  If you are going to have a baby have a baby, they demand
that kind of attention, but they are not six feet tall and you
can put them down and let someone else take over when you need a
break.

> Taking off from Joel's well-worded summary: if women don't *have* to
> have a relationship with you (or the generic Man) this opens up the
> possibility that they will choose no relationship, yes. Free agency
> brings those kinds of risks. But the other end is that when women do
> choose to have relationships with men,  _it will be because they
> actually like you._ Not because they want a guard dog or a wallet with
> legs. You won't have to wonder if you're a person or a "success object"
> to them. (And yes, there will be women who choose to be near you for
> yourself.)

The other thing is that people's relationship needs change over
time, if they have freedom and are self-sufficient.  For the past
9 years the thing that I have needed most is My Own Space.  At
other times in my life I have desperately wanted other things and
sometimes had them.  People do not necessarily want at 40 what
they wanted at 20, which is why some relationships between
perfectly decent people don't last despite the awesomeness on
all sides of the equation.

One can look at this and compare it to the death-do-you-part
marriages of our ancestors who lived under enforced heterosexual
monogamy and throw up one's hands and cry, O tempora O mores!

Or one can look at this and take heart in the fact that people
are often more committed than ever before, because they choose to
be, in a world that sometimes not only doesn't enforce it but
sometimes even makes it a bit difficult (say, if two people's
careers take them in different physical directions temporarily).

Of course if one has a lot invested in Being A Man, Being A Woman
and Making Other Folks Be Men And Women And Pair Up Like That,
this will be upsetting.  But perhaps the person in that situation
should consider how much fun they're not having themselves
instead of worrying that someone else, somewhere, might be having
some.  People who are satisfied with their own lives usually
aren't so obsessive about other people's.

~malfoy :)
****************************************************************
Azalais Aranxta (~malfoy)
ataniell93 on LiveJournal and Vox
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/malfoymadness

"I know the true world, and you know I do. But we needn't let it
think we all bow down." --Christopher Morley