[LMB] Ivan's love life (was Ivan and ???)

[Paula Lieberman]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Elizabeth Holden" <azurite at rogers.com>

> --- Paula Lieberman <paal at gis.net> wrote:
>
>> There are differencies between "idiot" and "stupid."
>
> Granted, but to my eyes, Ivan is not stupid and he is not an idiot.  He 
> is, in fact, not just
> intelligent, but loyal and true - qualities I admire in a hero. And he is 
> often unappreciated by
> those he loves most.
>
> I'd say Ivan's common sense is far greater than Miles'.  This is not to 
> criticize either of them.
> Miles loves risk - thrives on it.  Ivan doesn't, but Ivan understands 
> Miles' risk-taking, knows he
> can't control it, and is well able to pick up the debris behind Miles.
>
>> Common sense and intelligence are NOT correlated.  "That idiot Ivan!"
>> referred to Ivan lacking in what Aral regarded as reasonable amounts of 
>> clue
>> and awareness.
>
> I don't agree at all. I think it applied to Ivan's lack of ambition and 
> drive.  Aral has a family
> of high-achievers. Ivan was not a high-achiever, he was a 'get by with the 
> minimum' kind of guy.
> Which is enough to drive people like Aral and Cordelia nuts.  They have 
> trouble understanding how
> anyone can fail to want to excell.
>
>> Anyway, I;m thinking of some o the  typical young rather heedless male
>> characters in Heyer... not exacty Sir Peregrine Taverner because he fell 
>> in
>> love and wanted to get married at a quite young age, but maybe--ah, the
>> brother of the lead male in The Grand Sophy, who was next oldest son in 
>> the
>> family.
>
> I think that is there in Ivan's conceputual creation, yes, but Ivan soon 
> exceeded that.
>
>> was too busy gallivanting around to notice when the supply of eligible
>> interesting females of his own social stratum started evaporating.
>
> He was smart enough to know what he didn't want.  Which includes or 
> included marriage to a random
> Vor female.
>
>> Ivan got on my less than complimentary side with his treatment and 
>> attitudes
>> towards women--rather callous and unthinking and exploitationist.
>
> While I see him as very appreciative of them.  He doesn't want to settle 
> down, and he hasn't
> fallen in love, but he loves sex, and he loves beautiful women, so he 
> finds women who also don't
> want to settle down. I love that.

It's not the casual sex, it's his attitudes that bothered me.  The interlude 
with the Haute didn't bother me, but his attitude about cherry picking and 
showing relatively little CONSIDERATION in general, in the series, did. 
Getting involved with a married women without her husband's acquiesence 
isn't particularly couth [there are lots of poly types in -this- society and 
their arrangements often involve the spouse APPROVING of third party sex 
partners!  And the "he loves beautiful women" shows a distinct lack of clue, 
actually.  The ones who aren't beautiful often make much better non-serious 
relation partners if one is playing that game... and the best place to pick 
up casual relationship partners, I was informated in my Air Force days, was 
by going to church.....