[LMB] Ivan's love life (was Ivan and ???)

[A. Sasha Wagner-Adamo]

On 1 Mar 2008 at 13:27, Elizabeth Holden wrote:
 
> Granted, but to my eyes, Ivan is not stupid and he is not an idiot. 
> He is, in fact, not just intelligent, but loyal and true - qualities I
> admire in a hero. And he is often unappreciated by those he loves most. 

I totally agree. Very unappreciated in fact.

> I'd say Ivan's common sense is far greater than Miles'.  This is not
> to criticize either of them. Miles loves risk - thrives on it.  Ivan
> doesn't, but Ivan understands Miles' risk-taking, knows he can't
> control it, and is well able to pick up the debris behind Miles. 

Yes, Ivan does not thrive on risk, and I find it interesting that so many 
people have such a negative attitude towards him, just because he's not 
as hyper as Miles is.  I love Miles dearly, but as lifepartner he's rather 
less attractive than Ivan (and not due to his physical appearance either). 
:).  
 
> > Common sense and intelligence are NOT correlated.  "That idiot
> Ivan!" > referred to Ivan lacking in what Aral regarded as reasonable
> amounts of clue > and awareness.  
> 
> I don't agree at all. I think it applied to Ivan's lack of ambition
> and drive.  Aral has a family of high-achievers. Ivan was not a
> high-achiever, he was a 'get by with the minimum' kind of guy. Which
> is enough to drive people like Aral and Cordelia nuts.  They have
> trouble understanding how anyone can fail to want to excell. 

I absolutey agree that it's his lack of ambition that Aral and Cordelia see 
and it's probably what may be driving readers' dislike of him. I cannot 
help but wonder whether there isn't some subconscious jealousy 
involved.  After all, our U.S. society prizes ambition, drive, work, work, 
work and then some more work and Ivan has a cushy job, lots of sexual 
adventures and not many worries unless he's out and about with Miles.  

Most people I know who prize ambition and careers are also locked into 
the rat race 24/7 (which starts with piano lessons, ballet, soccer practice 
and similar assorted child stressors) with little to no relaxation. While 
they are possibly achieving their consciously stated goals, they might not 
have as much fun at it as they thought they would, so I could see 
disliking somebody who does not follow the accepted ambition/career 
path who nevertheless seems to have it made. 

Not being of an ambitious bend myself I like Ivan much better than many 
others here and I'm getting the 'you must be dumb because you aren't 
out there with us' attitude in real life quite frequently or the 'I cannot 
believe you have 2 degrees and aren't on a career path, what's *wrong* 
with you?'.  And here I'm the one with no annoying day job and as many 
books and time to read as I would like... Still think I have the better end 
of the stick. :)

> While I see him as very appreciative of them.  He doesn't want to settle down, and he hasn't
> fallen in love, but he loves sex, and he loves beautiful women, so he finds women who also don't
> want to settle down. I love that.

I really hope Ivan finds somebody, who appreciates him for who and 
what he is and doesn't try to force him into a mold that would only make 
him unhappy.  There's a lot to be said for accepting people for what they 
are without trying to remodel them in our own image.  I'm not sure 
there's really a story there in what I envision for him for a standalone 
book, though.

Sasha