[LMB] Cetaganda: Twin Empires and the Occupation

Marilyn Traber mtraber251 at earthlink.net
Sat Jun 5 02:33:10 BST 2010

Tel wrote:
> --- On Fri, 6/4/10, Marilyn Traber <mtraber251 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> From: Marilyn Traber <mtraber251 at earthlink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [LMB] Cetaganda: Twin Empires and the Occupation
>> To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
>> Date: Friday, June 4, 2010, 6:16 AM
>> Tel wrote:
>>> --- On Tue, 6/1/10, M. Haller Yamada <thefabmadamem at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> I would put Cetagandan haut/ghem culture at about 1000 years, if I were forced to name a random number. Then the recent expansions at about 250 to 300 years ago.    
>>> But the haut themselves aren't older than 250-300 years. That's the age range we get for the Great Key (to the haut gene banks), the haut wife system, etc. Less than a
>>> million haut have ever existed. They're children of the uterine replicator, just like the quaddies. 
>> But the two are not mutually exclusive.
>> Think of Imperial Rome - I know that we have the impression
>> of a city full of aristocratic inbreeding snobby squabbling
>> people, but realistically the aristos are not more than 10%
>> of the actual population. So if you take the original
>> 1000  years ago population of the home planet at 1
>> billion,
> what?
> Look, the original colony population of Eta Ceta was not one billion. And, I will underline this, on alien planets, plebians don't come from nowhere. You have to ship them in. They didn't come from nowhere in Rome either, but I won't go into that.  
yay I picked a random number and no textev on original number, deal with it.
> It's highly implausible that (good grief) 999 million people would agree to emigrate from Earth just so they could be crushed under the heel of the Cetagandan aristocracy. 
> Back in the day, Rome was the best thing going for immigrants. But if your immigrant has the choice between Ancient Rome and NYC, guess where they're not going? 
When I said think of Imperial Rome I meant in the idea of a very 
stratified culture. Not that Ceta were freaking romans. Population 
PROBABLY moved voluntarily and it was = to earth at that time. No textev 
it wasnt.

The damned planetary population had to come from somewhere, and when 
Earth fell, they had to stay where they were and develop their own 
government. At the time they moved to ceta it was probably as modern as 
earth was so no apples/oranges comparison of places to move.

Lack of modern crap = essentially slave labor/serfs/peasants under the 
dominion of aristos.

Aristos screw said peasantry = ghem
>> and give them a planetary government of 1 million
>> assorted bureaucrats. They make the decision that all ruling
>> caste children will come from the 'original governing
>> families' so there are 100 clans [echoing the roman tribal
>> structure that is original to  prerepublican rome]
>> Now these 100 clans are hording what little remains of the
>> tech available for health maintenance, and the understanding
>> of genetics. They make the determination that they need to
>> keep their  family lines pure, so they restrict
>> marriage contracts between the 100 constellations. All
>> marriages are contracted, so they can keep mutations to a
>> minimum and the lineage known. Soon they come up with a way
>> again to do IVF, so they make the ruling that all crosses
>> will be IVF so they can check a cell to make sure that
>> everything is clean genetically. That means they then start
>> the 'file' of cells of the resulting kids. Call it 500 years
>> ago, as they had their small time of isolation because it
>> was financially impractical to leave planets and travel
>> outside individual solar systems.
> You build a wall around Tarquin's Rome and ban trade and immigration for 500 years and you're not going to get a thriving metropolis, you're going to get a podunk town in the middle of Italy. 
> For a real uncontrolled population boom you need either to be an attractive destination for free immigration or have a deindustrialized rural population. Excepting Space Amish, you're only going to get the second in a Barrayar-like scenario or on Earth.
Repeat, ceta is not rome, ceta culturally imperial roman, stratified 
aristos on top, peasantry on bottom, ghem created by screwing peasants 
and created a middle class.

I never said that ceta banned any sort of trade or immigration.i have no 
idea where you got that from.

If the colony started out fully populated with 1 billion, with 1 million 
bosses, the bosses = aristos, the population = serfs. Aristos are not 
going to voluntarily become serfs and they are not going to let the 
serfs become bosses. Bosses over the centuries screw serfs, brats 
created become ghem as they are not serfs and they are not bosses. Now 
they have magic tech and control everything from one office.

There, is that simple enough for what I was trying to say? Now stop 
antagnizing me on a horridly bad body day and read before posting.


"This is me, Órale vato, this is who I am. Take me or leave me. You don't like me? Turn around and look the other way. Its that simple." - Eddie Guerrero

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