[LMB] OT: Effects of "Global Warming"

Paula Lieberman paal at gis.net
Tue Sep 13 15:24:03 BST 2011

There's been talk of a civil works project to bring water from the 
Mississippi to dry but farmed  parts of the USA south and west of the 
Mississippi, which project has never happened.... despite the Tennessee 
Valley Authority providing federally subsidized (federal taxes having paid 
for the construction and administration at least for the initial costs of 
the project) power and water to people in that region of the USA, and flood 
control, and federally subsidized water flowing most of the length of 
California, especially from north to south via huge waterworks including 
Heechheechee I think it's call water redistribution canal or tunnel or some 
such, also with significant diversion from the Colorado River.  The citizens 
of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts paid and continue to pay a steep price 
for the construction of  Quabbin and Wachusetts Reservoirs and distribution 
of water from them eastward to most of eastern Massachusetts for supplying 
water, and the citizens of New York state paid high for water distribution 
in that state to places which include New York City.

The citizens of one California locality on the other side of San Francisco 
Bay from San Francisco, rejected have a water desalinization plant installed 
at essentially no charge to them, because it would mean population growth, 
they apparently preferred having the place burn down from a lack of water 
during dought times instead (I can;t rmember the name of the place, it had 
an FS-7 radar ontop of a hill, and I remember talking to someone there who 
was describing the burning wildfires in the vicinity which were visible from 
the radar site, back in the mid to late 1970s...)

One of the things which got civilization started in various parts of the 
world, were national-level waterworks projects for flood control and 
agricultural use and provision of water for citizens--China with its 
waterworks, Mesopotamia, Egypt with channels of water from the Nile, Central 
and South America with terracing and water channels and canals, the 
waterworks in what is today the US Southwest of canals... things which take 
massed coordination of large numbers of people digging and building and 
maintaining.... there is a huge underground water distribution system which 
extends from mountains in Asia out into the deserts, which goes back to at 
least the Persian Empire.  Destruction of the water distribution system in 
Afghanistan during the war in which the USSR attempted to takeover the 
country in pursuit of the goal of getting a warm water port (take over 
Afghanistan and keep going south...) and the failure to rebuild it after the 
USSR pulled out, created the anarchy and armed fanatical in effect fiefdoms 
of fanatics which resulted in mass murder atrocities worldwide--New York 
City and Washington DC were far from the only targets and mass murder sites 
of Al Qaeda atrocities, others includes the railways of Spain, packed 
nightclubs in countries with substantial Islamic populations (alcohol is 
supposed to be forbidden in Islam, and facilities which serve it, were among 
the Al Qaeda targets), embassies and a total lack of concern for "collateral 
damage" to the citizens of the countries Al Qaeda was bombing embassies 
in.... 9/11 was the most spectacular Al Qaeda operation, but it was one 
operation set among dozens of mass murder attacks operations.


The waterworks in the southwestern USA failed to sustain the civilizations 
there, because even when there is an extensive irrigation system, if the 
water -sources- for the irrigation system dry up, the irrigation systems 
fail, and the land won't sustain agriculture for people to survive on 

As for deep drilling, the aquifers which farmers -were- pumping from for 
decades in the USA, have been drying up, and some have become unfit for use 
even with water still in the aquifer, either due to becoming brinier and 
brinier as water level dropped due to all pumping operations reducing the 
amount of water and the mineral and salt concentration going up in the 
remaining water, or due to salt water coming into the aquifer (a problem on 
Cape Cod, which is surrounded by salt water,  and/or contamination (fracking 
has been doing that lately, as one of the newer causes of contamination, as 
opposed to agricultural chemicals and pesticides and herbicides from lawn 
chemicals, and industrial wasted and illegal dumping of other than ag 
chemicals...) .

-----Original Message----- 
From: mtraber251
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 6:03 AM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold.
Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Effects of "Global Warming"

On 9/12/2011 10:36 PM, phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 06:48:58PM -0700, Mitch Miller wrote:
>> How do we know the climate of 1900 is the best of all possible worlds?
> This year's drought has killed off much of Texas's cattle industry;
> consider if those conditions become the new normal.  Consider what
> happens if the Colorado river mostly dries up due to drough and glacial
> loss.
Rob pointed out that the farmers he is accustomed to [Central Valley
near Fresno] drill deep wells and do not depend on rainfall, and also
subscribe to the canal system. He did not understand why in hell the
ranchers did not drill and depended on surface water and rainfall. He
hoped they were up to date on insurance payments otherwise they were
foolish. I tend to agree with him.
> Consider if the Northeast, mostly not built for hurricanes,
> starts getting annual hurricanes.  Consider the monsoon cycle of India
> stops, on which most of their agriculture depends.  Or the currents of
> the north Atlantic shutdown, depriving Europe of its unusually warm
> climate.  Results range from "regional economies dies" to "hundreds of
> millions of people die".
And what to do with the morons who hear that a hurricane is coming and
either do not evacuate or actually GO to the damned beach to watch the
hurricane roll in.

People adapt or die. Simple. I guess that is applied Darwinism [in the
parlance of one of the 'Ship Who' novels.] I think people who build on
flood plains and coastal zones that get hit by hurricanes regularly are
foolish. YMMV. When I lived in Tidewater I evacuated when hurricanes
were announced well in advance. If I was in western Europe or
Scandanavia that was dependent on the Gulf Stream, I would consider
adding greenhouses and fuel gas generation plants that ferment sewage
into methane to run heating systems and power generation plants to
produce longer season fruits and vegetables, and conduct trade with
countries in more equitable climes for bulk grains and large animals
that graze. [bunnies and chickens can be fed on veggie culls and scraps
but some people want hogs and cows.]

Historically as the growing season shortened making even barley
impractical the northern cultures either tried to move south or went to
a more nomadic lifestyle [semmi and other transarctic nomadic cultures]
We can't let our Scandanavian buddies go viking any more, though they
can emmigrate, or modify the environment to survive. Greenhouses and
methane production is a good logical start.


>> Why or from what source do you derive that we have a right to be free
>> from climate change?
> Our desire for a secure food supply.
>> What do we do if we've prepared for global warming, but, as some
>> scientists believe, global warming causes a new Ice Age?
> As worded this question doesn't even make sense.  It's not based on
> much, either; 1970s concerns about global cooling were nothing like the
> modern scientific consensus.
> -xx- Damien X-)
As I said, in place of preparing to sweat from the heat, we prepare to
without denuding the world of trees. I personally would love to see
produce food in a short season environment. We prepare to keep warm hundreds 
of new nuke plants being built, and the current crop of them
offlined and replaced with newer and better designed ones. I would like
to see a move into space, and exploration on Mars and the asteroid belt.

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