[LMB] What makes a character irredeemable?

Beatrice Otter beatrice_otter at zoho.com
Wed Aug 14 05:11:22 BST 2019

On 8/13/19 10:57 AM, Matthew George wrote: 

> If the ritual works because of the assent of a paranatural being, it's 
> theurgy.  If it compels the being, it's magic (probably sorcery, although 
> the technical distinctions aren't quite in my ken).  Magic contradicts the 
> themes of the 5GW - although from a Watsonian perspective it can't be ruled 
> out, the Doylesian view doesn't really permit it. 

---- On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 10:39:21 -0700 Zan Lynx <mailto:zlynx at acm.org> wrote ----

For some reason this made me think about "black magic." 
When someone wants some supernatural thing that they know is wrong but 
they want it anyway, they know it is useless to pray to Jesus, or the 
light-aspect Wiccan Powers. (I don't know too much about it so forgive 
me for my confusion on some things.) 
So they might turn to Satanism, if Christian. If they want an enemy 
destroyed so badly that they are willing to give up their eternal soul, 
well, that's pretty black and evil. 
I believe Wiccans have dark aspects they can approach with a prayer, or 
more usually ask to stay far, far away. They have the three-fold return 
rule which especially applies to evil. But what if someone really wants 
it anyway? 
If the Light won't give it to you, there's usually some entity that 
will, for a high enough price. 
In the 5GW are there dark aspects of the Five Gods? The Bastard does 
have one, if you're Quadrene. Is there the Dark Son, heedless and cruel, 
using force to take what he wants? The Dark Mother, killing children in 
winter. The Dark Daughter, faithless seducer and destroyer of men, 
pitting one against the other just to watch the fireworks.

Beatrice Otter:

Point of order, I know very little about Satanism, but I'm pretty sure Satanists don't believe that Satan is evil; they think God is.  A Christian turning to the Devil for evil power is not Satanism, it is (in Christian terms) witchcraft.  (But also not the same thing Wiccans call witchcraft.)

In my experience, people are a lot more likely to convince themselves that what they want is Right and Just and Good, and therefore God Is On Their Side.  Like, the KKK don't burn crosses because they hate Jesus, you know?  They burn them *because they believe Jesus hates black people and would want them to be terrorized.*  Most people throughout history who have been *accused* of worshiping the devil or practicing black magic haven't *actually* done it, they're just different in some way and people assume different=evil.

I think if there were dark aspects of the Five in the way you are suggesting, we would have seen SOME aspect of that by now, given the wide range of times and places we've seen.  Even if there were in actuality no "dark" versions of the gods but a sect had made them up in order to have a justification for evil deeds, that would probably have come up by now, unless we're talking something really small and local.

In the 5GU, someone wanting supernatural power would probably try to get themselves a demon or a sorcerer to compel.

Beatrice Otter

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