[LMB] Crime and Punishment

Tidsel tidsel at protonmail.com
Sat Dec 14 18:43:11 GMT 2019


Free education for everybody?




‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 4:01 PM, Harvey Fishman <fishman at panix.com> wrote:

> Do you have a way to deal with inequality?
>
> Harvey
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" wawenri at msn.com
> Bcc: fishman at panix.com
> To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold."
> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> Sent: 12/14/2019 10:46:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [LMB] Crime and Punishment
>
> > One of the things that prompted me to start this thread was the news that a thirteen year old was arrested for and confessed to the brutal knife murder of an eighteen year old college student. What can we do with current technology with a 13 year old murderer?
> > The penitentiary was invented by the Quakers as an alternative to physical punishment. The idea was mainly to give the prisoner time to repent. It hasn’t really worked that way.
> > Christian, husband, father, granddaddy, son, American. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me.
> > William A Wenrich
> >
> > From: lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk on behalf of pouncer at aol.com pouncer at aol.com
> > Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2019 8:30:21 AM
> > To: hedwig52 at comcast.net hedwig52 at comcast.net; litalex at gmail.com litalex at gmail.com; lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk; m.dolbear at lineone.net m.dolbear at lineone.net; sylviamcivers at gmail.com sylviamcivers at gmail.com; thefabmadamem at yahoo.com thefabmadamem at yahoo.com
> > Subject: [LMB] Crime and Punishment
> > Louann Miller refers to canon:
> >
> > > Cordelia ... offered some Barayarrans the option of
> > > Betan personlaity treatment on Beta vs. (per
> > > Barrayaran law) the death penalty. All of them went
> > > for the death penalty.
> >
> > I absolutely accept this into my head-canon, and
> > it's absolutely consistent with Cordelia's character,
> > but I confess I don't recall the scene or situation
> > in the books.
> > Would a listie who has a better-working memory chip
> > than mine please help fill in the background?
> > In real life I often consider the virtues of flogging.
> > Or time in wooden stocks outside the court-house, or
> > weekends devoted to picking up trash in parks or along
> > roadways.
> > I think it unfair (my foolish rationale) and ineffective
> > (my wiser one) that financial punishments are so common
> > for so many offenses against the good order of
> > society. The consequence is simply that wealthy
> > offenders suffer very little, while already-impoverished
> > offenders begin a cascade of tortures. Living
> > paycheck to paycheck, a person paying a parking ticket
> > may choose NOT paying an installment on a credit
> > contract, leading to increased interest payments.
> > It might mean not buying groceries or not paying
> > a utility bill. In the extreme not paying a
> > court imposed fine means going to jail or prison.
> > Even setting aside downstream consequences the same
> > absolute financial penalty represents disproportionate
> > pain (the point of any penalty) to richer or
> > poorer citizens. A corporal or temporal penalty -
> > unlike financial ones - affects those who have
> > bodies, or exist in time much more equitably. They
> > are not perfect:-- young healthy offenders may
> > recover from 5 lashes from a horsewhip much more
> > quickly than elderly ill ones and so be less
> > deterred by any prospect of punishment. Similarly
> > a worker accustomed to intermittent hourly paid
> > income tasked off to some number of community
> > service hours is less inconvenieced by such
> > a sentence than, say, a trial lawyer who bills
> > hundreds of dollars per hour in six minute
> > increments. But nothing in law or life is
> > perfect, or fair. It is perhaps unfair to
> > require taxpayers to hire foremen/supervisors
> > to instruct and manage and track hours for
> > trash pickers. Flogging would be much quicker,
> > I think. And arguably a better deterrent.
> > Time and pain have another advantage in that
> > they can not be transferred to societies'
> > guardians. If a policeman's pay depends
> > on the fines and impounded property resulting
> > from his enforcement, most police officers and
> > their management will feel incentives to
> > enforce the most "profitable" laws. The
> > funds collected from fines may also go to those who
> > WRITE such laws and again there exist incentives
> > for writing more, and more "profitable", laws.
> > But very few feel a benefit to themselves
> > in inflicting pain. Neither the cops nor
> > city council members would get more pay or
> > financial perqs of office based on how many
> > lashes on bare backs are inflicted on the
> > city's litterbugs, check-kiters, and those
> > who abuse handicap parking spaces. Line 'em
> > up on Saturdays in front of the court house.
> > Five to ten lashes apiece, as determined by
> > the municipal courts and juries. Fair and
> > square, over and done, then forgiven and
> > forgotten. Move on.
> > There WILL be psychological and behavioral
> > consequences of such policies. For all
> > I know Betan therapy takes flogging, or
> > like negative reinforcement, into their mix.
> > I suspect, however, Barrayar is more likely
> > than Beta Colony to include forms of corporal
> > punishment.
> >
> > --
> > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com
> > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=02|01||0b3137a90a08487e84ce08d780aa96b1|84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa|1|0|637119342465922767&sdata=VhFr%2BHN7EEyIsbRWvr1mkgxO%2FEe16HnfrgbLIvTe1ec%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com
> > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>
> --
>
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