[LMB] Crime and Punishment

Baur baur at chello.at
Sat Dec 14 19:30:13 GMT 2019

flogging? only voluntarily and since 1867 NEVER as a result of court or 
police proceeding. for a proper flogging you usually go to (mostly 
female) professional and pay a lot .. 8)

i was answering / confirming Matija Grabnar's post ..



Am 14.12.2019 um 20:21 schrieb Mieke:
> To Markus:
> Does Austria flog people? I can not believe that...
> Mieke
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Half of what we call madness is just some poor slob dealing with pain by a strategy that annoys the people around him - Lois McMaster Bujold
>> Op 14 dec. 2019 om 18:29 heeft Baur <baur at chello.at> het volgende geschreven:
>> Austria does this as well for fines that are the result of court proceedings (it does not do this for administratively issued fines by the police for minor illegal actions)
>> its generally well accepted
>> servus
>> markus
>>> Am 14.12.2019 um 18:03 schrieb Matija Grabnar:
>>> Several countries have implemented a solution to the inequality problem: Simply define the fines as percentage of income.
>>> I remember one of the founder's of Yahoo (back when Yahoo was big) paid something like 120 000 dolars for a speeding ticket in Finland.
>>> More detailed description here:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-fine
>>>> On 12/14/19 5:01 PM, Harvey Fishman wrote:
>>>> Do you have a way to deal with inequality?
>>>> Harvey
>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>> From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" <wawenri at msn.com>
>>>> Bcc: fishman at panix.com
>>>> To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
>>>> Sent: 12/14/2019 10:46:58 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [LMB] Crime and Punishment
>>>>> One of the things that prompted me to start this thread was the news that a thirteen year old was arrested for and confessed to the brutal knife murder of an eighteen year old college student. What can we do with current technology with a 13 year old murderer?
>>>>> The penitentiary was invented by the Quakers as an alternative to physical punishment. The idea was mainly to give the prisoner time to repent. It hasn’t really worked that way.
>>>>> Christian, husband, father, granddaddy, son, American. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me.
>>>>> William A Wenrich
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of pouncer at aol.com <pouncer at aol.com>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2019 8:30:21 AM
>>>>> To: hedwig52 at comcast.net <hedwig52 at comcast.net>; litalex at gmail.com <litalex at gmail.com>; lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>; m.dolbear at lineone.net <m.dolbear at lineone.net>; sylviamcivers at gmail.com <sylviamcivers at gmail.com>; thefabmadamem at yahoo.com <thefabmadamem at yahoo.com>
>>>>> Subject: [LMB] Crime and Punishment
>>>>> Louann Miller refers to canon:
>>>>>> Cordelia ... offered some Barayarrans the option of
>>>>>> Betan personlaity treatment on Beta vs. (per
>>>>>> Barrayaran law) the death penalty. All of them went
>>>>>> for the death penalty.
>>>>> I absolutely accept this into my head-canon, and
>>>>> it's absolutely consistent with Cordelia's character,
>>>>> but I confess I don't recall the scene or situation
>>>>> in the books.
>>>>> Would a listie who has a better-working memory chip
>>>>> than mine please help fill in the background?
>>>>> In real life I often consider the virtues of flogging.
>>>>> Or time in wooden stocks outside the court-house, or
>>>>> weekends devoted to picking up trash in parks or along
>>>>> roadways.
>>>>> I think it unfair (my foolish rationale) and ineffective
>>>>> (my wiser one) that financial punishments are so common
>>>>> for so many offenses against the good order of
>>>>> society.  The consequence is simply that wealthy
>>>>> offenders suffer very little, while already-impoverished
>>>>> offenders begin a cascade of tortures. Living
>>>>> paycheck to paycheck, a person paying a parking ticket
>>>>> may choose NOT paying an installment on a credit
>>>>> contract, leading to increased interest payments.
>>>>> It might mean not buying groceries or not paying
>>>>> a utility bill.  In the extreme not paying a
>>>>> court imposed fine means going to jail or prison.
>>>>> Even setting aside downstream consequences the same
>>>>> absolute financial penalty represents disproportionate
>>>>> pain (the point of any penalty) to richer or
>>>>> poorer citizens.  A corporal or temporal penalty -
>>>>> unlike financial ones - affects those who have
>>>>> bodies, or exist in time much more equitably. They
>>>>> are not perfect:-- young healthy offenders may
>>>>> recover from 5 lashes from a horsewhip much more
>>>>> quickly than elderly ill ones and so be less
>>>>> deterred by any prospect of punishment. Similarly
>>>>> a worker accustomed to intermittent hourly paid
>>>>> income tasked off to some number of community
>>>>> service hours is less inconvenieced by such
>>>>> a sentence than, say, a trial lawyer who bills
>>>>> hundreds of dollars per hour in six minute
>>>>> increments. But nothing in law or life is
>>>>> perfect, or fair. It is perhaps unfair to
>>>>> require taxpayers to hire foremen/supervisors
>>>>> to instruct and manage and track hours for
>>>>> trash pickers.  Flogging would be much quicker,
>>>>> I think. And arguably a better deterrent.
>>>>> Time and pain have another advantage in that
>>>>> they can not be transferred to societies'
>>>>> guardians.  If a policeman's pay depends
>>>>> on the fines and impounded property resulting
>>>>> from his enforcement, most police officers and
>>>>> their management will feel incentives to
>>>>> enforce the most "profitable" laws. The
>>>>> funds collected from fines may also go to those who
>>>>> WRITE such laws and again there exist incentives
>>>>> for writing more, and more "profitable", laws.
>>>>> But very few feel a benefit to themselves
>>>>> in inflicting pain. Neither the cops nor
>>>>> city council members would get more pay or
>>>>> financial perqs of office based on how many
>>>>> lashes on bare backs are inflicted on the
>>>>> city's litterbugs, check-kiters, and those
>>>>> who abuse handicap parking spaces. Line 'em
>>>>> up on Saturdays in front of the court house.
>>>>> Five to ten lashes apiece, as determined by
>>>>> the municipal courts and juries. Fair and
>>>>> square, over and done, then forgiven and
>>>>> forgotten.  Move on.
>>>>> There WILL be psychological and behavioral
>>>>> consequences of such policies.  For all
>>>>> I know Betan therapy takes flogging, or
>>>>> like negative reinforcement, into their mix.
>>>>> I suspect, however, Barrayar is more likely
>>>>> than Beta Colony to include forms of corporal
>>>>> punishment.
>> -- 
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