[LMB] Crime and Punishment

Mieke mvanspanje at home.nl
Sat Dec 14 19:37:55 GMT 2019


Oh! That is a complete different story. ;))
And I think that is not only in Austria.
Mieke

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Half of what we call madness is just some poor slob dealing with pain by a strategy that annoys the people around him - Lois McMaster Bujold



> Op 14 dec. 2019 om 20:30 heeft Baur <baur at chello.at> het volgende geschreven:
> 
> flogging? only voluntarily and since 1867 NEVER as a result of court or police proceeding. for a proper flogging you usually go to (mostly female) professional and pay a lot .. 8)
> 
> i was answering / confirming Matija Grabnar's post ..
> 
> servus
> 
> markus
> 
>> Am 14.12.2019 um 20:21 schrieb Mieke:
>> To Markus:
>> Does Austria flog people? I can not believe that...
>> Mieke
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Half of what we call madness is just some poor slob dealing with pain by a strategy that annoys the people around him - Lois McMaster Bujold
>>>> Op 14 dec. 2019 om 18:29 heeft Baur <baur at chello.at> het volgende geschreven:
>>> 
>>> Austria does this as well for fines that are the result of court proceedings (it does not do this for administratively issued fines by the police for minor illegal actions)
>>> 
>>> its generally well accepted
>>> 
>>> servus
>>> 
>>> markus
>>> 
>>>> Am 14.12.2019 um 18:03 schrieb Matija Grabnar:
>>>> Several countries have implemented a solution to the inequality problem: Simply define the fines as percentage of income.
>>>> I remember one of the founder's of Yahoo (back when Yahoo was big) paid something like 120 000 dolars for a speeding ticket in Finland.
>>>> More detailed description here:
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-fine
>>>>> On 12/14/19 5:01 PM, Harvey Fishman wrote:
>>>>> Do you have a way to deal with inequality?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Harvey
>>>>> 
>>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>>> From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" <wawenri at msn.com>
>>>>> Bcc: fishman at panix.com
>>>>> To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
>>>>> Sent: 12/14/2019 10:46:58 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [LMB] Crime and Punishment
>>>>> 
>>>>>> One of the things that prompted me to start this thread was the news that a thirteen year old was arrested for and confessed to the brutal knife murder of an eighteen year old college student. What can we do with current technology with a 13 year old murderer?
>>>>>> The penitentiary was invented by the Quakers as an alternative to physical punishment. The idea was mainly to give the prisoner time to repent. It hasn’t really worked that way.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Christian, husband, father, granddaddy, son, American. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me.
>>>>>> William A Wenrich
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of pouncer at aol.com <pouncer at aol.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2019 8:30:21 AM
>>>>>> To: hedwig52 at comcast.net <hedwig52 at comcast.net>; litalex at gmail.com <litalex at gmail.com>; lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>; m.dolbear at lineone.net <m.dolbear at lineone.net>; sylviamcivers at gmail.com <sylviamcivers at gmail.com>; thefabmadamem at yahoo.com <thefabmadamem at yahoo.com>
>>>>>> Subject: [LMB] Crime and Punishment
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Louann Miller refers to canon:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cordelia ... offered some Barayarrans the option of
>>>>>>> Betan personlaity treatment on Beta vs. (per
>>>>>>> Barrayaran law) the death penalty. All of them went
>>>>>>> for the death penalty.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I absolutely accept this into my head-canon, and
>>>>>> it's absolutely consistent with Cordelia's character,
>>>>>> but I confess I don't recall the scene or situation
>>>>>> in the books.
>>>>>> Would a listie who has a better-working memory chip
>>>>>> than mine please help fill in the background?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In real life I often consider the virtues of flogging.
>>>>>> Or time in wooden stocks outside the court-house, or
>>>>>> weekends devoted to picking up trash in parks or along
>>>>>> roadways.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think it unfair (my foolish rationale) and ineffective
>>>>>> (my wiser one) that financial punishments are so common
>>>>>> for so many offenses against the good order of
>>>>>> society.  The consequence is simply that wealthy
>>>>>> offenders suffer very little, while already-impoverished
>>>>>> offenders begin a cascade of tortures. Living
>>>>>> paycheck to paycheck, a person paying a parking ticket
>>>>>> may choose NOT paying an installment on a credit
>>>>>> contract, leading to increased interest payments.
>>>>>> It might mean not buying groceries or not paying
>>>>>> a utility bill.  In the extreme not paying a
>>>>>> court imposed fine means going to jail or prison.
>>>>>> Even setting aside downstream consequences the same
>>>>>> absolute financial penalty represents disproportionate
>>>>>> pain (the point of any penalty) to richer or
>>>>>> poorer citizens.  A corporal or temporal penalty -
>>>>>> unlike financial ones - affects those who have
>>>>>> bodies, or exist in time much more equitably. They
>>>>>> are not perfect:-- young healthy offenders may
>>>>>> recover from 5 lashes from a horsewhip much more
>>>>>> quickly than elderly ill ones and so be less
>>>>>> deterred by any prospect of punishment. Similarly
>>>>>> a worker accustomed to intermittent hourly paid
>>>>>> income tasked off to some number of community
>>>>>> service hours is less inconvenieced by such
>>>>>> a sentence than, say, a trial lawyer who bills
>>>>>> hundreds of dollars per hour in six minute
>>>>>> increments. But nothing in law or life is
>>>>>> perfect, or fair. It is perhaps unfair to
>>>>>> require taxpayers to hire foremen/supervisors
>>>>>> to instruct and manage and track hours for
>>>>>> trash pickers.  Flogging would be much quicker,
>>>>>> I think. And arguably a better deterrent.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Time and pain have another advantage in that
>>>>>> they can not be transferred to societies'
>>>>>> guardians.  If a policeman's pay depends
>>>>>> on the fines and impounded property resulting
>>>>>> from his enforcement, most police officers and
>>>>>> their management will feel incentives to
>>>>>> enforce the most "profitable" laws. The
>>>>>> funds collected from fines may also go to those who
>>>>>> WRITE such laws and again there exist incentives
>>>>>> for writing more, and more "profitable", laws.
>>>>>> But very few feel a benefit to themselves
>>>>>> in inflicting pain. Neither the cops nor
>>>>>> city council members would get more pay or
>>>>>> financial perqs of office based on how many
>>>>>> lashes on bare backs are inflicted on the
>>>>>> city's litterbugs, check-kiters, and those
>>>>>> who abuse handicap parking spaces. Line 'em
>>>>>> up on Saturdays in front of the court house.
>>>>>> Five to ten lashes apiece, as determined by
>>>>>> the municipal courts and juries. Fair and
>>>>>> square, over and done, then forgiven and
>>>>>> forgotten.  Move on.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There WILL be psychological and behavioral
>>>>>> consequences of such policies.  For all
>>>>>> I know Betan therapy takes flogging, or
>>>>>> like negative reinforcement, into their mix.
>>>>>> I suspect, however, Barrayar is more likely
>>>>>> than Beta Colony to include forms of corporal
>>>>>> punishment.
>>>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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