[LMB] Fwd: Fwd: Re: What’s needed

Baur baur at chello.at
Sat Feb 1 08:27:04 GMT 2020

Am 01.02.2020 um 01:14 schrieb Pat Mathews:
> If you all want detailed discussions and descriptions of what it takes, 
> Eric Flint's 1632 series goes into great detail, at least on the 
> balloons. Check out a story called Upward Mobility, I think in one of 
> the Ring of Fire anthologies.

the 163x series is fun to read, but highly optimsitc in the ease of 
creating new/old tech .. (it also misses the target on downtimer 
mindsets by a very large margin quite often ..)

> BTW, pulp is indeed a way of making paper, and cheaper than rags. But 
> have a look at an old (maybe ca. 1880?) rag-paper book and compare it to 
> one of your old mass market (many c. 1979) paperbacks. Pulp as a medium 
> drives historians mad. Though compared to digital, where much, much data 
> had been lost because nobody can read the medium any more not 
> reconstruct the gadget that could, as, frex, at NASA... nobody thought 
> to save that stuff in archival quality paper!

yes, rag paper is a LOT more stable



> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk 
> <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Baur <baur at chello.at>
> *Sent:* Friday, January 31, 2020 9:16 AM
> *To:* Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. 
> <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
> *Subject:* [LMB] Fwd: Fwd: Re: What’s needed
> Am 31.01.2020 um 16:32 schrieb Aruvqan:
>> On 1/31/2020 5:50 AM, Baur wrote:
>>> paper is the prerequiste for printing .. as long as we are limited to 
>>> vellum, that is a major bottleneck .. Gutenberg printed only a few of 
>>> his first run of bibles on vellum, most on linen paper
>>> this in turn points on the prerequisite of the availability of large 
>>> amounts of linen rags for paper making - damn, i start to sound like 
>>> Burke in Connections) 
>> Well, you don't actually need rag for paper, you can make quite adequate 
>> paper from just trees, the pulp has to be pounded quite finely 
> can that even be done? - i would have assumed you still need a grinding
> stage before the pounding, and that would mean very large water powered
> grinding wheels / mills ..
>   > the
>> bleaching process is the pain in the fundament - though I suppose that 
>> the sunlight/lignin yellowing makes sunlight bleaching impossible. I 
>> would have to doublecheck my processes, on sodium hypochlorite making 
>> not from modern techniques but period ones.
> thanks for checking on that  - saves me the work of running these
> processes down
>> Hm, modern version:
>> While I could do this with confidence [wouldn't recommend it to amaturs 
>> offhand]I don't see them really generating electricity in either world. 
>> Winding copper cores isn't particularly difficult, and spinning it up is 
>> easy with a water wheel, I don't really think so.
> not seeing any processes with electricity- not for a long time (too much
> missing in the basis)
>> Hmmm - doable:
>> *1792*
>> In France, Claude Louis Berthollet, Napoleon's scientific expert, noted 
>> that chlorine gas added to a solution of potash created a powerful 
>> bleach. The idea made the rounds of Europe, but putting the exact amount 
>> of each component into the mix was difficult. And potash was pricey.
>> *1799*
>> Scottish chemist Charles Tennant took Berthollet's chlorine idea, 
>> substituted limestone for the potash, and made a bleaching powder 
>> (calcium hypochlorite). In decades, bleaching powder spread over Europe, 
>> whitening not only clothes but also other products, especially writing 
>> paper. But because the powder contained so much chlorine, it still was 
>> expensive.
>> from 
>> One generates chlorine by running hydrochloric acid through a bed of 
>> activated charcoal ... you crack salt by heating it in porcelain 
>> crucibles. OK, doable.
> frankly, processes with largeish amounts of hot, elemental chlorine in a
> medievloid tech level setting make me nervous - see a good number of
> dead alchemists
>> Reasonably small batch could be more easily made 
>> somewhere with large salt deposits, woodlands [for burning into ash to 
>> make the potash] or near limestone deposits. So in the equivalent of 5G 
>> Austria. WGW being roughly shown on page 6 of 
>> I know personally of the 
>> salt deposits in western NY - been down in the mine actually, it is in 
>> Geneseo NY. I don't offhand know of the ones in Ohio, I just know they 
>> are there. Limestone is available in Ohio - 
>> https://ohiohistorycentral.org/w/Limestone_Rocks
>> OK, so bleaching of paper is very doable if they can figure out the 
>> process of bleachmaking.
>> now my brain hurts =) off to breakfast =)
> mahlzeit!
> servus
> markus
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