[LMB] Citizenship?

Harvey Fishman fishman at panix.com
Wed Dec 1 16:56:53 GMT 2021


Didn't Miles spend considerable time on Beta Colony with Cordelia's 
mother? Perhaps his citizenship occurred through that?

Harvey

------ Original Message ------
From: "Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold" <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
Cc: "Matija Grabnar" <lmb at matija.com>
Bcc: fishman at panix.com
Sent: 12/1/2021 4:45:12 AM
Subject: Re: [LMB] Citizenship?

>On 30/11/2021 21:37, Edith via Lois-Bujold wrote:
>>There are at least two things that complicate this picture however. In 'The Warrior's Apprentice' we see with Arde Mayhew the possibility that someone may be a subject of Gregor's by virtue of his oath to Miles, but retains Betan citizenship/nationality. This suggests that 'subject of Gregor' and 'citizen of the Barrayaran Imperium' are not completely interchangeable terms. (On the other hand, I don't think it is possible to be a citizen of the Barrayaran Imperium and NOT a subject of Gregor).
>
>My (purely personal) reasoning on this is that citizenship on Barrayar is related to oaths and the oaths define who is responsible to punish you when you do something wrong.
>
>So, until you are of an age where you can swear an oath, your parents are responsible for your behavior.
>
>Presumably, once you are old enough, you swear a generic oath to your count. A generic oath might or might not stipulate renouncing your other loyalties (such as citizenship of Barrayar or Escobar), it might depend on the specific count.
>
>A personal oath, such as Arde swore, is different. It was Miles' option if he should demand of his vassal to give up his citizenship or not. Since he did not, Arde could keep it. Possibly Miles could later demand that Arde choose between the two loyalties, or possibly the state at the taking of the oath is the determinant. That would probably depend on very deep Barrayaran traditions and/or their deepest, most basic law.
>
>Anyway, once Miles has Arde swear a personal oath, and having accepted that Arde is a Betan citizen *as well*, I should think that it is no longer a problem as far as Barrayaran government is concerned. If Arde's dual loyalties ever become a problem for Gregor or his government, they would ring up his liege lord (Miles), and tell him "Are you gonna control your liegeman, or are you in rebellion against Gregor?"
>
>But Miles' Betan passport is an interesting problem from the other side. Obviously, Miles was not born on Betan soil, so Beta must have some concept of the citizenship of parents being conferred on the children. That means that Cordelia had to register his birth with Betan authorities. But IIRC, she left Beta as a fugitive. At what point did she arrange to once again become a citizen of good standing?
>
>And here is another interesting question (it is possible that it was mentioned in the books and I have simply forgotten), at what point did she register Mark with the Betan authorities as her son? When did Mark get his genuine Betan passport, and did he get it from Cordelia's hands, or just ... you know... in the mail?
>
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