From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Nov 1 05:09:56 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 05:09:56 +0000 Subject: [LMB] LMB] Spirit Ring Ch 4 and ranking "Dads" in Bujold canon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Eric Oppen When I read about Vormuir's baby factory, I smiled to myself at the way a lot of women (my mother very much included) would have reacted to going there when the little girls were at toddler stage. "SQUEE!" Mom taught and ran a nursery school for many years, and I could see Vormuir offering her a huge salary to come and work for him. Gwynne: There's a story - a mother whose eggs were discarded hears about Vormuir's baby factory. She can't afford any genetic testing, and can't tell her husband what's happened - knowing he'd struggle to accept the child that wasn't his. So she gets a job in the creche. And looks at each baby - is this one mine? This one? From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Nov 1 05:28:19 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 05:28:19 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ranking Dads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Elizabeth Holden Richard G. Molpus said: > I suspect Elena loved Bothari, at a core level; she was shattered when he died - > falling into Baz's arms. Of course she loved him. Many people love their fathers, bad or good. Most people, I would say. The parental bond is a strong one. Some people love fathers way worse than Bothari. namaste, Elizabeth Gwynne: Poor old Bothari is always a problem! We can judge his parenting skills by the standards of our society, by his own, by his own standards, and by Elena's. By our standards - he's actually not terrible. He supports her, arranges a loving carer, gives her an education, saves for her future. Child Welfare wouldn't step in, certainly. Emotionally he's not warm and fuzzy, but a generation or two ago in our society he'd be the norm. By the standards of his own society he's gone above and beyond, claiming a bastard - and a female at that. He's given her as good a raising as most children in that society got. And better than many. Considering his start in the caravanserai he's certainly doing way better. By his own standards he's done everything he sees as necessary and important. He certainly gives thought and care to what he does about her, he plans, he saves. He has an idea of what a father is, from the outside, and tries to do that. By Elena's standards - she doesn't agree with his ideas, but then we see her at first in the middle of her teenage years, when traditionally kids don't agree with their parents. He's got traditional Barrayaran views about the possibilities for women; Elena has been influenced greatly by Cordelia and her views aren't those of most of the girls around her. Even if she'd had what we'd see as a 'better' sort of family, she'd probably still be arguing with them. And whatever his shortcomings, Bothari did give her the basic skills to survive in the Nexus. He gave all that he could. Yes, he lied to her about her origins - would it have been easier for her to grow up knowing she was a rape child who was rejected by her mother? Bothari gave her a kind lie, which was something that many people in our society would choose to do, to give the child a happier view of themselves. He wasn't warm and loving - he didn't know how. He tried. He visited her regularly, he gave her what she needed, he was proud of her. There are plenty of ways he could have been better. But just as many ways he could have been a lot worse. On a scale of Aral to Galen, he's above the centre. Would he be my choice for a father? No. But I was lucky. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Nov 1 05:51:15 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 05:51:15 +0000 Subject: [LMB] LMB] Spirit Ring Ch 4 and ranking "Dads" in Bujold canon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: WalterStuartBushell > On Oct 30, 2021, at 12:46 PM, WalterStuartBushell wrote: Hey we don?t know many male characters fatherhood levels. For example we never see Cazaril as a father. Gwynne: There's Fawn's father too - he's seen as a pretty good person in his community. But his daughter has a fairly miserable childhood, being constantly bullied by her brothers, and he doesn't do anything to stop it. And three of his four sons are pretty useless - Whit only improves when Dag gets hold of him. Based on results, he's not a great father. Here's the interesting question: How would you rate Miles as a father? From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 05:58:13 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 00:58:13 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: <6A22FBC3-DD4F-445B-8B3D-53306D82433F@brazee.net> <3A977BE9-EFE0-4060-B31A-ED4B6B4E7B6C@brazee.net> <518556081.3461106.1635672638210@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks I'll try that. It's subsidizing now. But maybe the antibiotic cream might speed up the process. I got some Neosporin, will that work? On Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 9:33 AM Sylvia McIvers wrote: > On Sun, Oct 31, 2021 at 5:30 AM Richard G. Molpus > wrote: > > > A trick for shortening sinus infections is to coat your nose, upper lip, > > and eyesockets with antibiotic cream. The cream gets absorbed into the > > skin, and then is directly at the infection site. > > > > This shortens my infections to one or two days tops; and in Texas when > the > > cedar blooms EVERYONE has sinus problems. > > > > > That's an amazing trick. > Most of my sinus problems, though, come from thunderstorms. Or rather, the > increase in air pressure _before_ the storm. My sinuses swell right up. > Owwww.... > > My sister had this for ages. First time it happened to me, I called ehr to > find out if she also has 'the storm headache' or if I'm suddenly really > sick. Nope. Just under the weather. > > Sylvia > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 06:10:04 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 01:10:04 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ranking Dads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What about Ekaterin's da? Has he been mentioned yet? On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 12:28 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Elizabeth Holden > > Richard G. Molpus said: > > I suspect Elena loved Bothari, at a core level; she was shattered when he > died - > > falling into Baz's arms. > > Of course she loved him. Many people love their fathers, bad or good. Most > people, I would say. The parental bond is a strong one. Some people love > fathers way worse than Bothari. > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Gwynne: Poor old Bothari is always a problem! > > We can judge his parenting skills by the standards of our society, by his > own, > by his own standards, and by Elena's. > > By our standards - he's actually not terrible. He supports her, arranges a > loving > carer, gives her an education, saves for her future. Child Welfare > wouldn't step > in, certainly. Emotionally he's not warm and fuzzy, but a generation or > two ago > in our society he'd be the norm. > > By the standards of his own society he's gone above and beyond, claiming a > bastard - and a female at that. He's given her as good a raising as most > children > in that society got. And better than many. Considering his start in the > caravanserai > he's certainly doing way better. > > By his own standards he's done everything he sees as necessary and > important. > He certainly gives thought and care to what he does about her, he plans, he > saves. He has an idea of what a father is, from the outside, and tries to > do that. > > By Elena's standards - she doesn't agree with his ideas, but then we see > her at > first in the middle of her teenage years, when traditionally kids don't > agree with > their parents. He's got traditional Barrayaran views about the > possibilities for > women; Elena has been influenced greatly by Cordelia and her views aren't > those > of most of the girls around her. Even if she'd had what we'd see as a > 'better' sort > of family, she'd probably still be arguing with them. And whatever his > shortcomings, > Bothari did give her the basic skills to survive in the Nexus. > > He gave all that he could. Yes, he lied to her about her origins - would > it have been > easier for her to grow up knowing she was a rape child who was rejected by > her > mother? Bothari gave her a kind lie, which was something that many people > in our > society would choose to do, to give the child a happier view of > themselves. He > wasn't warm and loving - he didn't know how. He tried. He visited her > regularly, > he gave her what she needed, he was proud of her. > > There are plenty of ways he could have been better. But just as many ways > he could > have been a lot worse. On a scale of Aral to Galen, he's above the centre. > > Would he be my choice for a father? No. But I was lucky. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 06:12:14 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 01:12:14 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My God. I hope you get over this illness. Nobody should suffer such pain. On Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 11:04 AM Karen Hunt wrote: > Probably only briefly returning... > > My go-to used to be when I was 12: I was walking in circles, frantic with > the pain in my throat because every breath felt like breathing in fire, and > every time I tried to swallow to relieve that, it felt like something in my > throat ripped. Of course I also had a fever around 104-5, and 4/5 of the > lobes in my lungs were consolidated - breathing was more of a rapid > panting. I was taken to the hospital some hours later, also a surreal > experience except that I was beyond caring about much of anything. I died > 18 hours later, but was successfully resuscitated about a minute > afterwards. Died again the next day, but again resuscitated. > > Now? Well, that still wins, but the best contender for second place is now > March-June 2020, just before I left the list. My hands were nearly > paralyzed, with fingers swollen like balloons and terrible pain running up > and down the right arm. I couldn't see the doctor because of lockdown, > though I had several zoom sessions with her. All the mistypes on the list > were because I could barely move my fingers. > > Note: I've tried gallstones and no-med labor pains. The two here were > worse. Not necessarily because of the measure of pain but because of the > measure of terror. Adding long-lasting terror to pain greatly enhances the > experience. > > Karen Hunt > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Mon Nov 1 06:58:27 2021 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2021 23:58:27 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: <3E712BE3-055A-4815-A3CB-E15AD9F1CDAC@brazee.net> References: <6A22FBC3-DD4F-445B-8B3D-53306D82433F@brazee.net> <3A977BE9-EFE0-4060-B31A-ED4B6B4E7B6C@brazee.net> <3E712BE3-055A-4815-A3CB-E15AD9F1CDAC@brazee.net> Message-ID: <462FBCEE-3DD7-421E-9D72-920D7C70CF48@comcast.net> On Oct 31, 2021, at 5:21 AM, brazee wrote: > > > >> On Oct 31, 2021, at 2:08 AM, Raymond Collins wrote: >> >> Currently I'm suffering from a sinus infection. I'm feeling pain around the >> left side of my face. I'd classify as around 2 or 3. However, if I where >> 13 or 14 years old I'd classify as considerably higher like 7 or 8. The >> point I'm making as that these classifications are subjective and not >> objective which means the Doctor ends up as the final arbiter of how much >> pain you are feeling. > > It can be meaningful when they compare your pain level over time. I have been thinking of my worse pain. It was during my first bout of Sciatica. Usually when I have back pain, bending backwards helps. However for that bout of Sciatica., it made the pain worse. I have visited the clinic for a followup and when I returned to my car, I found a car parked too close to my driver?s side door. Usually, I could wiggle my way in (there was about a foot clearance), but with the Sciatica, it hurt too much to bend backwards enough to do it (car belonged to one of the clinic?s staff members and she moved it). From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Nov 1 07:03:55 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 07:03:55 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gwynne: There's also a huge difference between constant pain and intermittent. Expected/braced and unexpected. Regular and surprising. I have spurs on my hip: most of the time there's no problem. But now and then, as I get up from a chair or out of the car, it stabs. It's that gasp-out-loud pain, that makes you freeze for a moment before you can deal with it. REALLY intense, but for a short time. And it takes you by surprise, so you're not ready. After the knee replacements I'd do my exercises, and I'd know what was coming - I'd be braced and ready before the really hurty bits. So although it was strong pain, I was ready to deal with it. (You can breathe through a lot of pain, if you're in the right mindset.) I always hated waking up in the morning when I was a kid - the whole family knew it, it was a bit of a family joke. I never thought to tell them why, because I thought it was the same for everyone. Every day of my life, as a kid, I'd wake up with a throat that felt like it was filled with red-hot barbed wire. I thought that was normal. And for me, it was... until as a young adult I was allergy tested, found out that I had a few very strong food allergies, and that I ate those things regularly. Because I had them all the time they didn't kill me (they would now, because I've cut them from my diet for decades), but I had sinus problems, runny nose, sore throat... all the time. Again, I thought it was normal. Wasn't until I sorted out what not to eat that could wake up without pain. (Kids just don't know what's normal; I've taught several children who had severe sight problems, one was legally blind, but nobody knew - not even the kids themselves. They thought that what they saw was normal.) So it's not just intensity of pain, it's duration and source and frequency, and so on. And whether it's worn you down or not. You can deal with a seven or eight most of the time, under the right circumstances, but some days it's a lot harder. Other days distraction helps. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Nov 1 07:09:40 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 07:09:40 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Robert Woodward I have been thinking of my worse pain. It was during my first bout of Sciatica. Usually when I have back pain, bending backwards helps. However for that bout of Sciatica., it made the pain worse. I have visited the clinic for a followup and when I returned to my car, I found a car parked too close to my driver?s side door. Usually, I could wiggle my way in (there was about a foot clearance), but with the Sciatica, it hurt too much to bend backwards enough to do it (car belonged to one of the clinic?s staff members and she moved it). Gwynne: That's why I have the handicapped parking tag. On good days I don't need it, but that extra space to open the door wide when getting in and out can make all the difference. From rgmolpus at flash.net Mon Nov 1 07:18:50 2021 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard G. Molpus) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 07:18:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: <6A22FBC3-DD4F-445B-8B3D-53306D82433F@brazee.net> <3A977BE9-EFE0-4060-B31A-ED4B6B4E7B6C@brazee.net> <518556081.3461106.1635672638210@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1409718919.3651700.1635751130879@mail.yahoo.com> I use the generic stuff my local pharmacy sells; Neosporin should work as well. I like the triple antibiotic compoundings, that catches any sneaky 'adapted' bugs.? Also, if you have any troublesome teeth, especially in your upper jaw, they may be a reservoir for infections. I had an upper canine root-canaled, and that stopped a chronic sinus infection. The roots of the tooth were adjacent to a sinus cavity, and (seemingly) acted as a haven for the infection. On Monday, November 1, 2021, 12:58:42 AM CDT, Raymond Collins wrote: Thanks I'll try that. It's subsidizing now. But maybe the antibiotic cream might speed up the process. I got some Neosporin, will that work? On Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 9:33 AM Sylvia McIvers wrote: > On Sun, Oct 31, 2021 at 5:30 AM Richard G. Molpus > wrote: > > >? A trick for shortening sinus infections is to coat your nose, upper lip, > > and eyesockets with antibiotic cream. The cream gets absorbed into the > > skin, and then is directly at the infection site. > > > > This shortens my infections to one or two days tops; and in Texas when > the > > cedar blooms EVERYONE has sinus problems. From proto at panix.com Mon Nov 1 09:57:44 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 05:57:44 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ranking Dads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Nov 1, 2021, at 1:28 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > By Elena's standards - she doesn't agree with his ideas, but then we see her at > first in the middle of her teenage years, when traditionally kids don't agree with > their parents. He's got traditional Barrayaran views about the possibilities for > women; Elena has been influenced greatly by Cordelia and her views aren't those > of most of the girls around her. Even if she'd had what we'd see as a 'better' sort > of family, she'd probably still be arguing with them. And whatever his shortcomings, > Bothari did give her the basic skills to survive in the Nexus. Interesting decision of Cordelia to let Bothari raise her. Perhaps Cordelia though that by acting as her mother figure would be better than being an explicit orphan. Later when the orphans were placed with families, I wonder how much the families were told. It?s a wise child that knows their own father, but with genetic testing it?s much easier. __ What is the difference between unethical and ethical advertising? Unethical advertising uses falsehoods to deceive the public; ethical advertising uses truth to deceive the public. Vilhjalmur Stefansson (1879 ? 1962) From huntkc at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 12:17:14 2021 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 08:17:14 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 2:12 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > My God. I hope you get over this illness. Nobody should suffer such pain. > Well.... See below > > On Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 11:04 AM Karen Hunt wrote: > > > Probably only briefly returning... > > > > My go-to used to be when I was 12: I was walking in circles, frantic with > > the pain in my throat because every breath felt like breathing in fire, > and > > every time I tried to swallow to relieve that, it felt like something in > my > > throat ripped. Of course I also had a fever around 104-5, and 4/5 of the > > lobes in my lungs were consolidated - breathing was more of a rapid > > panting. I was taken to the hospital some hours later, also a surreal > > experience except that I was beyond caring about much of anything. I died > > 18 hours later, but was successfully resuscitated about a minute > > afterwards. Died again the next day, but again resuscitated. > That event is the source of my "COPD" (ask a doctor whether non-smoking lung damage is COPD, get different answers depending on what day you ask). > > > > Now? Well, that still wins, but the best contender for second place is > now > > March-June 2020, just before I left the list. My hands were nearly > > paralyzed, with fingers swollen like balloons and terrible pain running > up > > and down the right arm. I couldn't see the doctor because of lockdown, > > though I had several zoom sessions with her. All the mistypes on the list > > were because I could barely move my fingers. > This? Well, the swollen fingers were because my then-relatively-new Rheumatoid Arthritis was ignoring all the medications to treat it. The pain up and down the arm came from a bad flare up of carpal tunnel resulting from hand-sewing masks for the family. The hands aren't all better, but at least those two symptoms are gone. Mostly I still have neuropathy, probably from the drugs that were needed to get the RA under control (Rituxen, which means I'm pretty severely immune-suppressed, which in combination with the COPD makes everyone treat me like I'm made of glass regarding COVID. Staying in the house for 17 months was ... something.) I can type, and I can use my hands for simple things. Sometimes I have to put a cover over my fingertips to keep them from hurting too badly, and then mistypes go up again, but it's really just not as bad as it was. But I'm grateful for what use of them I have, because I can work again, and cook again, and use the computer again, and ... Karen Hunt From howard at brazee.net Mon Nov 1 12:39:48 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 06:39:48 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32EAF174-ADA1-48CC-930D-7FB36533DFCB@brazee.net> I wonder how effective Penric is at relieving pain in people (and other animals). From domelouann at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 12:53:22 2021 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 07:53:22 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ranking Dads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 1:10 AM Eric Oppen wrote: > What about Ekaterin's da? Has he been mentioned yet? > IIRC he's still living at the time of ACC, isn't he? It doesn't seem like he understood her very well, or that he and his wife as a team took very good care of her as far as preventing her brothers from bullying her. Of course, her mother didn't take very good care of herself, either. From fishman at panix.com Mon Nov 1 14:14:36 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 14:14:36 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: <6A22FBC3-DD4F-445B-8B3D-53306D82433F@brazee.net> <3A977BE9-EFE0-4060-B31A-ED4B6B4E7B6C@brazee.net> <518556081.3461106.1635672638210@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Raymond Collins" To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 11/1/2021 1:58:13 AM Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? >Thanks I'll try that. It's subsidizing now. But maybe the antibiotic cream XXXXXXXX > >might speed up the process. I got some Neosporin, will that work? Why can't people turn off spell checkers? Or at least set them to warn rather than changing the message??????? Harvey > > From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Nov 1 16:21:01 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 16:21:01 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Shooting In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> Message-ID: <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> On Sat, 30 Oct 2021 13:41:43 +0000, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >Now I expect some on list will say that since I heard it from Ms Cousins, who is not a member of the mainstream press, it must be wrong. Things are not true or false because of the person who says them. They are true or false by how they conform to objective reality. Does the statement: "It will rain tomorrow" have a truth value? I'd say it does - but we don't know what it is. -- "True education flowers at the point when delight falls in love with responsibility." - Philip Pullman From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Nov 1 16:29:36 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 16:29:36 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: vaccine reactions & astronomy news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 07:24:39 -0600, brazee wrote: > > >> On Oct 29, 2021, at 6:44 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: >> >> Kurt has horribly painful reactions to vaccines, not that it keeps him from getting them as needed. He thinks everyone gets reactions, but aside from needing to knead the site where I got an intramuscular injection, to break up the bolus, I don?t. > >I didn?t notice any reaction to any of my COVID vaccinations. I wonder if there is a correlation between how big reactions someone gets with how big of a problem the actual disease would be. It's possibly an *inverse* correlation. If you don't react much to the vaccine, it may mean your immune system is not very vigilant. Of course, it may also mean you've been exposed without realising, and are asymptomatic. -- "True education flowers at the point when delight falls in love with responsibility." - Philip Pullman From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Nov 1 16:30:58 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 16:30:58 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: vaccine reactions & astronomy news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 08:38:43 -0500, Louann Miller wrote: > >A study from Brazil, which may or may not stand up to peer review, suggests >at least one antidepressant can reduce symptoms if the user goes on to have >COVID. I take the same class of medication (SSRI). This may relate to why I >got no bad reaction to the vaccine while my husband, who doesn't, had the >'feels like one day of flu' level. >The other thing about SSRIs is that you have to take them for around six >weeks for the level in your blood to reach therapeutic amounts. So if the >Brazil study is true, it won't be a whole lot of help for treating patients >after diagnosis. Of course, the off-prescripion use may not rely on a build-up of concentration in the same way. -- "True education flowers at the point when delight falls in love with responsibility." - Philip Pullman From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Nov 1 16:35:06 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 16:35:06 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Calibre 5.x and deDRM In-Reply-To: <015d01d7cd13$d5d5cbb0$81816310$@gordonj.net> References: <84c8603a-a3ee-b649-4654-226163638141@allums.email> <015d01d7cd13$d5d5cbb0$81816310$@gordonj.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 23:25:07 +0100, "Gordon Jackson" wrote: >Marc wrote: >>I have only recently spent ?300+ on a 2021 Oasis. > >What do you think of the Oasis? I admit to thinking that that is an awful lot of money to spend on a book reader. I bought a new basic Kindle model last year, once the 3 free months of Kindle Unlimited was figured in the cost wasn't much more than 10% of that much. I really like it but OTOH if I'm reading in good light my preferred reader is still my 3rd Gen Kindle Keyboard from 2010. I love it. It's bigger than the standard format Kindles, and has oodles of space (32GB), and it has the option of changing the colour palette somewhat to make it more yellowish in the evenings. And it's water-resistant. Of course, the extra size has its own challenges; it doesn't fit in every pocket. With the larger screen, I can still read without glasses on the larger font settings, which is handy if I'm lying down in bed. -- Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Nov 1 16:39:52 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 16:39:52 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Wreck update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 08:25:35 -0500, Louann Miller wrote: > >The other provision of Texas car insurance law which is much in my mind >right now is that the 19 year old son is almost certainly going to take his >drivers' test for a full license before the end of the year. Texas >Department of Transportation requires that he be on the auto insurance, at >the time of the road test, for whatever car he tests in. This is going to >be pricey. Do you have "day insurance" in the US? We have a number of specialist companies here who can provide valid insurance for between 12 hours and 30 days. Came in handy when I went to collect a car and the insurance company had failed to add it correctly to the policy; I was able to go online and add 2 days' worth of cover for around 30 quid (enough to stretch until Monday). -- Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Nov 1 16:44:59 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 16:44:59 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Kidney stones and giving birth and combat drops wasRe: OT: husband?s ?fun? in the ER In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 11:57:40 +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: > >Gwynne: When I was in Primary school (ages 5 - 12), the government gave >all school children a small bottle of milk, every day. The milk was delivered in >crates. Not cartons, not insulated, just open crates. In Australia. The milk would >be delivered in the morning, and sit on the verandah until it was time to >distribute it. In Australia. In summer. They did it to improve nutrition, and for >those children who needed it, it was probably a successful program. But it >made a generation of children think less than happy thoughts about drinking milk. Same.? I didn't drink milk for years - and it's still something I'd have to be very thirsty and lacking in other options to do willingly. I used to give away my free milk, because I'm particularly sensitive to that "off" taste, and being thirsty was better than projectile vomiting. And there was always water. ?OK, we don't have Australian weather, but it was hot enough, often enough, to make the stuff (to me) undrinkable. As our school meals were prepared offsite, there wasn't even a large fridge on the premises, just a teeny one in the staffroom. -- Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain From jpolowin at hotmail.com Mon Nov 1 17:02:24 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 17:02:24 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: brazee wrote: > I wonder how effective Penric is at relieving pain in people (and other > animals). We know that he's skilled at *creating* pain by tweaking nerves -- that's neuropathic pain, more or less. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he could relieve neuropathic pain by dumping "uphill magic" into irritated nerves. Similarly, he can probably relieve some kinds of inflammation, which would reduce pain indirectly. Other kinds of pain would be more difficult to manage, I think. Joel From lmb at matija.com Mon Nov 1 17:07:32 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 17:07:32 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Shooting In-Reply-To: <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> Message-ID: <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> On 01/11/2021 16:21, Marc Wilson wrote: > Does the statement: "It will rain tomorrow" have a truth value? I'd say > it does - but we don't know what it is. Sure, but we can make educated guesses/estimates when we consider the source (and it's track record). If the source is a weather forecasting service, the probability of it's being right is better than if the source is someone with an ulterior motive. From howard at brazee.net Mon Nov 1 18:17:55 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 12:17:55 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Calibre 5.x and deDRM In-Reply-To: References: <84c8603a-a3ee-b649-4654-226163638141@allums.email> <015d01d7cd13$d5d5cbb0$81816310$@gordonj.net> Message-ID: <05B869CB-3519-41EB-90F6-D9B752304EDF@brazee.net> > On Nov 1, 2021, at 10:35 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > preferred reader is still my 3rd Gen Kindle Keyboard from 2010. > > I love it. It's bigger than the standard format Kindles, and has oodles > of space (32GB), and it has the option of changing the colour palette > somewhat to make it more yellowish in the evenings. And it's > water-resistant. > > Of course, the extra size has its own challenges; it doesn't fit in > every pocket. > > With the larger screen, I can still read without glasses on the larger > font settings, which is handy if I'm lying down in bed. One huge advantage with Kindles is that switching between devices is virtually seamless. Use you preferred Kindle most of the time, but pull out your phone when you?re on the bus. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 19:14:54 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 14:14:54 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Shooting In-Reply-To: <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: One thing I've used to shut people up and get them thinking is: "Does 'two plus two equals four' stop being true...if David Duke says it?" I was very impressed by a play I saw at St. Olaf, called *Enemy of the People*. It's about a resort town that depends heavily on people coming to their "Medicinal" spring, and their reaction when the town doctor tells them that the spring's got something really, really wrong with it. Let us say that while the doctor is perfectly correct, he is suddenly Not Popular. On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 12:07 PM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On 01/11/2021 16:21, Marc Wilson wrote: > > Does the statement: "It will rain tomorrow" have a truth value? I'd say > > it does - but we don't know what it is. > Sure, but we can make educated guesses/estimates when we consider the > source (and it's track record). If the source is a weather forecasting > service, the probability of it's being right is better than if the > source is someone with an ulterior motive. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From adamek at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 19:54:16 2021 From: adamek at gmail.com (Adam Ek) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 15:54:16 -0400 Subject: [LMB] =?utf-8?b?T1Q6IGh1c2JhbmTigJlzIOKAnGZ1buKAnSBpbiB0aGUgRVI=?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 28, 2021, at 13:17, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > But my grandmother, who lived outside the city and still had milk delivered, described my symptoms to her milkwoman. "Oh! I know what that is!" the milkwoman said, and started delivering milk from one cow to my grandmother. > > Not a specific cow, but milk that was milked from one cow and not mixed with milk from other cows. I could take that without a problem. And some months later, my mother tried again with shop milk (which is multi-cow by definition), and I was able to take it. > > I have no idea why it worked, and I was too young at the time to insist on a double blind test. > Have you tried A2 milk? Some high production cow breeds produce A1 casein protein. Humans, goats, and some older cow breeds produce mostly A2 casein. From Wikipedia: On average, more than 70 percent of Guernsey cows produce milk with predominantly A2 protein, while among Holsteins and Ayrshires between 46 and 70 percent produce milk containing both the A1 and A2 proteins.[18] You might have gotten milk from a Guernsey. From lmb at matija.com Mon Nov 1 20:50:30 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:50:30 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Shooting In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: <8f5277e3-7d0e-fa92-4b54-49bf5152a3bb@matija.com> On 01/11/2021 19:14, Eric Oppen wrote: > One thing I've used to shut people up and get them thinking is: > > "Does 'two plus two equals four' stop being true...if David Duke says it?" That's moving the goal-posts. The original question was about the prediction of the future. And when it comes to David Duke, it would depend on what he means by two, and what he means by four. Strictly a numerical statement? True. But if it's an analogy trying to show his conclusion clearly follows, then the definition of two and the definition of four can be suspect. > I was very impressed by a play I saw at St. Olaf, called *Enemy of the > People*. It's about a resort town that depends heavily on people coming to > their "Medicinal" spring, and their reaction when the town doctor tells > them that the spring's got something really, really wrong with it. Let us > say that while the doctor is perfectly correct, he is suddenly Not Popular. Yes, a play by Ibsen. I saw the version with Steve McQueen. It was also a subplot in Jaws. Note that the play is not a refutation of what I said: I talked about considering the track record when assessing the credibility of the person predicting, the play was about people discarding the track record in order to discard a prediction they didn't want to hear. Exactly the opposite of what I was suggesting. > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 12:07 PM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > >> On 01/11/2021 16:21, Marc Wilson wrote: >>> Does the statement: "It will rain tomorrow" have a truth value? I'd say >>> it does - but we don't know what it is. >> Sure, but we can make educated guesses/estimates when we consider the >> source (and it's track record). If the source is a weather forecasting >> service, the probability of it's being right is better than if the >> source is someone with an ulterior motive. >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> From lmb at matija.com Mon Nov 1 21:31:07 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 21:31:07 +0000 Subject: [LMB] =?utf-8?b?T1Q6IGh1c2JhbmTigJlzIOKAnGZ1buKAnSBpbiB0aGUgRVI=?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <532124ec-fea2-5580-f558-fafdae1ebf1a@matija.com> On 01/11/2021 19:54, Adam Ek wrote: >> On Oct 28, 2021, at 13:17, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: >> >> But my grandmother, who lived outside the city and still had milk delivered, described my symptoms to her milkwoman. "Oh! I know what that is!" the milkwoman said, and started delivering milk from one cow to my grandmother. >> >> Not a specific cow, but milk that was milked from one cow and not mixed with milk from other cows. I could take that without a problem. And some months later, my mother tried again with shop milk (which is multi-cow by definition), and I was able to take it. >> >> I have no idea why it worked, and I was too young at the time to insist on a double blind test. >> > Have you tried A2 milk? Some high production cow breeds produce A1 casein protein. Humans, goats, and some older cow breeds produce mostly A2 casein. At that point I was not eloquent enough in my communication to be able to convey the concepts of A1 vs A2 milk. Smile/sleep when happy, cry when unhappy was more or less the total of my vocabulary. Oh, and regurgitation and defecation could also be part of communication. > From Wikipedia: On average, more than 70 percent of Guernsey cows produce milk with predominantly A2 protein, while among Holsteins and Ayrshires between 46 and 70 percent produce milk containing both the A1 and A2 proteins.[18] > > You might have gotten milk from a Guernsey. My grandmother and her milkwoman are no longer around to ask what that cow looked like. But I looked up the kinds of cows that are frequent in Slovenia. It says there are two kinds of cows common in the lowlands, "spotted cattle" (the Swiss fleckvieh kind) and "brown cattle" (Swiss braunvieh). The kind common in the alpine meadows is autochthonous to Slovenia, it's called "Cika cattle" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cika_cattle Interestingly, when my mother switched to a commercial brand, the only brand I could tolerate was called "Alpine milk", which probably means it came from Cika cattle. I had no idea about Cika cattle or about the A1/A2 proteins until I looked stuff up to answer you. So I learned something new today, thank you! From saffronrose at me.com Mon Nov 1 23:12:07 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 16:12:07 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: vaccine reactions & astronomy news In-Reply-To: <5MyiKcBfA8wuLm58enmvoytpNk-CZRLdtATGsz0eeKrEdpYlq1V7syWA0cInC86niQj-PcE_rGeuS64XuxSNK_N9KnUdmtXkeHa-PtbRWt4=@protonmail.com> References: <5MyiKcBfA8wuLm58enmvoytpNk-CZRLdtATGsz0eeKrEdpYlq1V7syWA0cInC86niQj-PcE_rGeuS64XuxSNK_N9KnUdmtXkeHa-PtbRWt4=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <9E5586B1-3B41-4E63-B8FD-132F71ACE87B@me.com> On Oct 29, 2021, at 12:16 PM, Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > ?I was knocked on my back for a day - the kind of drained weakness I associate with flu - by both my Pfizer vaccine shots, but nothing else worth mentioning. > > I'll never forget the time the flu vaccine gave me typical flu muscle aches, but only in the arm they injected. I posted it online as "My left arm has flu." I have had similar very local/isolated pain. I often say, ?my x doesn?t like me today?. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Mon Nov 1 23:20:04 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 16:20:04 -0700 Subject: [LMB] =?utf-8?b?T1Q6IE1hcmPigJlzIHNpZ3M=?= Message-ID: On Nov 1, 2021, at 9:45 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and > then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain I have an oval (cattle) bone pin which reads: ?I am allergic to stupidity? It makes me break break out in sarcasm? A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Tue Nov 2 00:32:18 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 17:32:18 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92A458B0-4FE9-4ADC-BCC1-474016260E5C@me.com> On Oct 30, 2021, at 9:16 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: > surprise surprise, his appendix had ruptured! They had to keep him there > for a couple of weeks to get the glunk out of his middle, and he was down > sick for a long time after that. Damned good thing sepsis didn?t a strong hold on him?tends to end pain permanently. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 00:39:29 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:39:29 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: <92A458B0-4FE9-4ADC-BCC1-474016260E5C@me.com> References: <92A458B0-4FE9-4ADC-BCC1-474016260E5C@me.com> Message-ID: Same sort of thing happened to my father. They had to clean out his middle. When they were wheeling him in to be operated on, he was still tough enough to tease the nurses. One of them said "You'll never remember this." He bet her a sandwich he darn well WOULD. And he did. I think a lot of my own hale good health comes from his side of the family. If he hadn't stupidly later gone back to drinking and drunk himself to death, he might be with us now, looking forward to his 100th birthday. On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 7:32 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Oct 30, 2021, at 9:16 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > surprise surprise, his appendix had ruptured! They had to keep him there > > for a couple of weeks to get the glunk out of his middle, and he was down > > sick for a long time after that. > > Damned good thing sepsis didn?t a strong hold on him?tends to end pain > permanently. > > A. Marina Fournier > saffronrose at me.com > Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e > Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA > Sent from iFionnghuala > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From saffronrose at me.com Tue Nov 2 02:01:32 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:01:32 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73001FBC-BB6A-4083-82F9-C144BC9739B8@me.com> ?From: Robert Woodward > > > I have been thinking of my worse pain. It was during my first bout of Sciatica. Usually when I have back pain, bending backwards helps. However for that bout of Sciatica., it made the pain worse. I have visited the clinic for a followup and when I returned to my car, I found a car parked too close to my driver?s side door. Usually, I could wiggle my way in (there was about a foot clearance), but with the Sciatica, it hurt too much to bend backwards enough to do it (car belonged to one of the clinic?s staff members and she moved it). I am aware that I am extremely lucky in that my sciatica is rare, a muscular rather than a spinal pinch, and that doing the cat-cow yoga movement for 5 minutes makes in go away. I can tell it?s sciatica because the path the nerve takes is in textbooks. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Tue Nov 2 02:18:46 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:18:46 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35EA9095-DFFE-476A-9599-37CACAEE98F1@me.com> On Oct 31, 2021, at 11:12 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > ?My God. I hope you get over this illness. Nobody should suffer such pain. > >> On Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 11:04 AM Karen Hunt wrote: >> >> Probably only briefly returning... >> >> My go-to used to be when I was 12: I was walking in circles, frantic with >> the pain in my throat because every breath felt like breathing in fire, and >> every time I tried to swallow to relieve that, it felt like something in my >> throat ripped. Of course I also had a fever around 104-5, and 4/5 of the >> lobes in my lungs were consolidated - breathing was more of a rapid >> panting. I was taken to the hospital some hours later, also a surreal >> experience except that I was beyond caring about much of anything. I died >> 18 hours later, but was successfully resuscitated about a minute >> afterwards. Died again the next day, but again resuscitated. >> >> Now? Well, that still wins, but the best contender for second place is now >> March-June 2020, just before I left the list. My hands were nearly >> paralyzed, with fingers swollen like balloons and terrible pain running up >> and down the right arm. I couldn't see the doctor because of lockdown, >> though I had several zoom sessions with her. All the mistypes on the list >> were because I could barely move my fingers. >> >> Note: I've tried gallstones and no-med labor pains. The two here were >> worse. Not necessarily because of the measure of pain but because of the >> measure of terror. Adding long-lasting terror to pain greatly enhances the >> experience. I agree?that?s ghastly. Rheumatoid arthritis seems to be one of the worst chronic pain around. You?ve also been been hit with iatrogenic illness. You and Gwynne seem to have been dealt raw deals, and I know we all wish you, and others we know, on this list or not, would be freed of it without making things worse. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Tue Nov 2 02:20:41 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:20:41 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: <32EAF174-ADA1-48CC-930D-7FB36533DFCB@brazee.net> References: <32EAF174-ADA1-48CC-930D-7FB36533DFCB@brazee.net> Message-ID: <711A3D40-68AD-482B-8148-F2397E5652A0@me.com> On Nov 1, 2021, at 5:40 AM, brazee wrote: > > ?I wonder how effective Penric is at relieving pain in people (and other animals). Geez, I hope he and Desdemona can do better than what we can do now. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Tue Nov 2 02:23:24 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:23:24 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 1, 2021, at 5:39 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > ?Same sort of thing happened to my father. They had to clean out his > middle. When they were wheeling him in to be operated on, he was still > tough enough to tease the nurses. One of them said "You'll never remember > this." He bet her a sandwich he darn well WOULD. What kind of sandwich was it? Always the curious one! A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Tue Nov 2 02:26:50 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:26:50 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Penric & Pain, was OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7367D56B-03BA-47B0-87D1-6AF99CC8EA48@me.com> On Nov 1, 2021, at 10:02 AM, Joel Polowin wrote: > > ?brazee wrote: >> I wonder how effective Penric is at relieving pain in people (and other >> animals). > > We know that he's skilled at *creating* pain by tweaking nerves -- > that's neuropathic pain, more or less. I wouldn't be at all surprised > if he could relieve neuropathic pain by dumping "uphill magic" into > irritated nerves. Similarly, he can probably relieve some kinds of > inflammation, which would reduce pain indirectly. Other kinds of pain > would be more difficult to manage, I think. Emotional pain, for instance. For spiritual pain, one goes the Mother?s temple, I should think. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Tue Nov 2 02:33:39 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:33:39 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2021, at 7:18 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > ?Whenever you are in the hospital you are commonly asked about pain and you are asked to rate your pain on a scale of 0 to 10. The problem is that there?s no way to actually measure pain. (A long time ago I saw a TV episode, I think it was Ben Casey, about a woman with tic de la roux, extreme stabbing pain in the face, where they tried to measure her pain by crushing her ankle. I thought that was horrible. ISTR it was a Marcus Welby MD. I think the trigeminal nerve was involved, but not TMJ. > Even describing pain can only be done in reference to the patient?s past experiences. I have never had a kidney stone or shingles is delivered a baby (obviously) so I can?t compare my pain to any of those. My 10 level of pain was riding in an ambulance on a rough road with the bone ends in my broken leg grating together. > There is something I think is a fallacy, that say that if you?re hurt or hungry or disappointed, the fact that someone else has it worse (starving children in China) negates your experience. Piffle. May put it in perspective, but that?s it. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Tue Nov 2 02:35:29 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:35:29 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: <6A22FBC3-DD4F-445B-8B3D-53306D82433F@brazee.net> References: <6A22FBC3-DD4F-445B-8B3D-53306D82433F@brazee.net> Message-ID: <26373CD4-902F-4304-B4EC-483F25C9C69E@me.com> On Oct 30, 2021, at 8:05 AM, brazee wrote: > >> On Oct 30, 2021, at 8:17 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >> >> Whenever you are in the hospital you are commonly asked about pain and you are asked to rate your pain on a scale of 0 to 10. The problem is that there?s no way to actually measure pain. > > I can always imagine a worse pain. So nothing can ever be a 10. Perhaps it?s a 10 when you pass out from it, repeatedly. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Tue Nov 2 02:36:43 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:36:43 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: <3A977BE9-EFE0-4060-B31A-ED4B6B4E7B6C@brazee.net> References: <3A977BE9-EFE0-4060-B31A-ED4B6B4E7B6C@brazee.net> Message-ID: <9A53FA53-86DA-4A37-8FC0-146C79B2D5B3@me.com> On Oct 30, 2021, at 8:07 AM, brazee wrote: > > ?Dial up to 11!!! Only if the needle for the spinal tap misses the target? A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From margdean56 at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 02:39:35 2021 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:39:35 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Penric & Pain, was OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: <7367D56B-03BA-47B0-87D1-6AF99CC8EA48@me.com> References: <7367D56B-03BA-47B0-87D1-6AF99CC8EA48@me.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 8:26 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Nov 1, 2021, at 10:02 AM, Joel Polowin wrote: > > > > ?brazee wrote: > >> I wonder how effective Penric is at relieving pain in people (and other > >> animals). > > > > We know that he's skilled at *creating* pain by tweaking nerves -- > > that's neuropathic pain, more or less. I wouldn't be at all surprised > > if he could relieve neuropathic pain by dumping "uphill magic" into > > irritated nerves. Similarly, he can probably relieve some kinds of > > inflammation, which would reduce pain indirectly. Other kinds of pain > > would be more difficult to manage, I think. > > Emotional pain, for instance. For spiritual pain, one goes the Mother?s > temple, I should think. > We already know that a sorcerer can deal with some *sources* of pain, like kidney stones. Maybe also things like the crystallized uric acid whose buildup causes the pain of gout? --Margaret Dean From saffronrose at me.com Tue Nov 2 02:45:15 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:45:15 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 31, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Sylvia McIvers wrote: > > ?On Sun, Oct 31, 2021 at 5:30 AM Richard G. Molpus > wrote: > >> A trick for shortening sinus infections is to coat your nose, upper lip, >> and eyesockets with antibiotic cream. The cream gets absorbed into the >> skin, and then is directly at the infection site. >> >> This shortens my infections to one or two days tops; and in Texas when the >> cedar blooms EVERYONE has sinus problems. > > That's an amazing trick. > Most of my sinus problems, though, come from thunderstorms. Or rather, the > increase in air pressure _before_ the storm. My sinuses swell right up. > Owwww.... > > My sister had this for ages. First time it happened to me, I called ehr to > find out if she also has 'the storm headache' or if I'm suddenly really > sick. Nope. Just under the weather. Except for Edna, whose sinus pain, or sinus-triggered migraines, our entire household has them for the exact same reasons, barometric pressure change before a storm. It is the sustained change, not a burst of change, that causes it. Some doctors don?t believe in that cause because they?ve never had them AND researchers are asking the wrong questions: one elevator ride is not enough. It is the duration at the heart of it. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Tue Nov 2 02:51:07 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:51:07 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: <518556081.3461106.1635672638210@mail.yahoo.com> References: <518556081.3461106.1635672638210@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <61A8DFFA-3741-4835-B52C-24F268029615@me.com> My stepfather used Vick?s VapoRub under the nose?against instructions?for clearing sinus congestion. Given my reaction to strong menthol, I was not fond of this. I could never understand why my father liked Hall?s Mentholyptus cough drops. Made me gag as much as I do next to Altoids tins. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala > On Oct 31, 2021, at 2:31 AM, Richard G. Molpus wrote: > > ? A trick for shortening sinus infections is to coat your nose, upper lip, and eyesockets with antibiotic cream. The cream gets absorbed into the skin, and then is directly at the infection site. > > This shortens my infections to one or two days tops; and in Texas when the cedar blooms EVERYONE has sinus problems. > > On Sunday, October 31, 2021, 03:08:58 AM CDT, Raymond Collins wrote: > > Currently I'm suffering from a sinus infection. I'm feeling pain around the > left side of my face. I'd classify as around 2 or 3. However, if I where > 13 or 14 years old I'd classify as considerably higher like 7 or 8. The > point I'm making as that these classifications are subjective and not > objective which means the Doctor ends up as the final arbiter of how much > pain you are feeling. > > >> On Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 10:07 AM brazee wrote: >> >> Dial up to 11!!! >> >>>> On Oct 30, 2021, at 9:05 AM, brazee wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Oct 30, 2021, at 8:17 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >>>> >>>> Whenever you are in the hospital you are commonly asked about pain and >> you are asked to rate your pain on a scale of 0 to 10. The problem is that >> there?s no way to actually measure pain. >>> >>> I can always imagine a worse pain. So nothing can ever be a 10. >>> -- >>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to howard at brazee.net >>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> >> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to saffronrose at me.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From saffronrose at me.com Tue Nov 2 02:55:24 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:55:24 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1E4FA46B-6846-4C4E-82B8-07FB5F054386@me.com> On Oct 31, 2021, at 9:04 AM, Karen Hunt wrote: > > ?I was taken to the hospital some hours later, also a surreal > experience except that I was beyond caring about much of anything. I died > 18 hours later, but was successfully resuscitated about a minute > afterwards. Died again the next day, but again resuscitated. O Karen-kitty, please don?t use up all nine lives before you?re ready to go. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Tue Nov 2 03:51:08 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:51:08 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines Message-ID: <00FE882D-4532-4FD8-B8DE-83386D5150FE@me.com> I rate my migraines by Tornado or Hurricane scales?Fujita scale, not Beaufort?s (Oh, for once last time . . .toward the Beaufort Sea). F1 is barely there, noticeable but not going anywhere. Sometimes it can be slept out, otherwise throw 2 ibuprofen at it. F2 is beginning to interfere with thinking, definite pain. Definitely 2 ibuprofen. Significant stress can cause these. ?Can also be can be a barometric pressure-triggered sinus headache. Definite pain squarely behind the eyes. Nothing works in those. Arthur started having migraines at 3, Kurt?s brother as an infant. F3 can be a barometric pressure-triggered sinus headache. Significant pain squarely behind the eyes, seriously interferes with executive functions. Nothing works in those. ?Otherwise, it?s a headache that seriously interferes with executive functions. 2 ibuprofen and a fiorinal, lie down a bit with something over my eyes. F4 is serious interference with functioning and strong pain. I whimper a lot, need to be in dim & quiet surroundings. Nausea is common. I will not go outside or near windows with strong/direct light. 2 ibuprofen and a fiorinal might work, but I probably need to repeat the ibuprofen in 3-4 hours, and the ibuprofen in 6. May continue the next day. F5 is so much pain I can?t function, need to be in dim & quiet surroundings: cannot tolerate light or sound. Nausea definite, vomiting is likely, as is vertigo. Bedridden. I?d scream with the pain, or cry, but that would only make my head throb worse. 3-4 ibuprofen and a fiorinal may not work, and I can only hope sleep will claim me, and free me of the pain, but carrying on at a slightly lower level for a day or two more can happen. I have yet to be hospitalized or in the ER for migraines with pain. The painless extreme vertigo with off-true horizontal double vision ones, twice. Those are very scary! Thank Hygeia those last have stopped: nothing to do but wait them out horizontally. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 05:19:40 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 00:19:40 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When I was in high school I dislocated my knee cap playing soccer I still remember the crunching sound and fell down. When I tried to stand up the pain was so bad that I fainted next thing I remember was being taken to the nurses office on a stretcher. So I figured anything that knocks you out must be a 10+. On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 2:04 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Gwynne: There's also a huge difference between constant pain and > intermittent. Expected/braced and unexpected. Regular and surprising. > > I have spurs on my hip: most of the time there's no problem. But > now and then, as I get up from a chair or out of the car, it stabs. > It's that gasp-out-loud pain, that makes you freeze for a moment > before you can deal with it. REALLY intense, but for a short time. > And it takes you by surprise, so you're not ready. > > After the knee replacements I'd do my exercises, and I'd know what > was coming - I'd be braced and ready before the really hurty bits. So > although it was strong pain, I was ready to deal with it. (You can > breathe through a lot of pain, if you're in the right mindset.) > > I always hated waking up in the morning when I was a kid - the whole > family knew it, it was a bit of a family joke. I never thought to tell them > why, because I thought it was the same for everyone. Every day of my > life, as a kid, I'd wake up with a throat that felt like it was filled with > red-hot barbed wire. I thought that was normal. And for me, it was... > until as a young adult I was allergy tested, found out that I had a few > very strong food allergies, and that I ate those things regularly. Because > I had them all the time they didn't kill me (they would now, because > I've cut them from my diet for decades), but I had sinus problems, > runny nose, sore throat... all the time. Again, I thought it was normal. > Wasn't until I sorted out what not to eat that could wake up without pain. > (Kids just don't know what's normal; I've taught several children who > had severe sight problems, one was legally blind, but nobody knew - > not even the kids themselves. They thought that what they saw was > normal.) > > So it's not just intensity of pain, it's duration and source and frequency, > and so on. And whether it's worn you down or not. You can deal with a > seven or eight most of the time, under the right circumstances, but > some days it's a lot harder. Other days distraction helps. > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From proto at panix.com Tue Nov 2 09:37:36 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 05:37:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C482482-9A0E-4909-825C-4EC6C3BD7C8B@panix.com> > On Nov 1, 2021, at 10:45 PM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Except for Edna, whose sinus pain, or sinus-triggered migraines, our entire household has them for the exact same reasons, barometric pressure change before a storm. It is the sustained change, not a burst of change, that causes it. > > Some doctors don?t believe in that cause because they?ve never had them AND researchers are asking the wrong questions: one elevator ride is not enough. It is the duration at the heart of it. They?ll get out the prescription pad as soon as a drug for it is developed. ? ?Of all the means to insure happiness throughout the whole life, by far the most important is the acquisition of friends.? ~Epicurus From proto at panix.com Tue Nov 2 09:46:29 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 05:46:29 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: <00FE882D-4532-4FD8-B8DE-83386D5150FE@me.com> References: <00FE882D-4532-4FD8-B8DE-83386D5150FE@me.com> Message-ID: <4FAAEB4F-AB0F-44B3-85C2-57D90FC0B682@panix.com> > On Nov 1, 2021, at 11:51 PM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Thank Hygeia those last have stopped: nothing to do but wait them out horizontally. The Classic Hippocratic Oath ?I swear by Apollo the physician, and Aesculapius the surgeon, likewise Hygeia and Panacea, and call all the gods and goddesses to witness, that I will observe and keep this underwritten oath, to the utmost of my power and judgment. and more redacted Hygeia is a daughter of Aesculapius. ? The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret. ? Terry Pratchett, The Truth From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 11:19:37 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 06:19:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] =?utf-8?b?T1Q6IE1hcmPigJlzIHNpZ3M=?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I love it! On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 6:20 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Nov 1, 2021, at 9:45 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > > > Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level > and > > then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain > > I have an oval (cattle) bone pin which reads: > ?I am allergic to stupidity? > It makes me break break out in sarcasm? > > A. Marina Fournier > saffronrose at me.com > Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e > Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA > Sent from iFionnghuala > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 2 12:44:10 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 06:44:10 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: <00FE882D-4532-4FD8-B8DE-83386D5150FE@me.com> References: <00FE882D-4532-4FD8-B8DE-83386D5150FE@me.com> Message-ID: <2BEB80A6-FEAA-4B5A-B8BC-23DB3DC61606@brazee.net> My migraines aren?t worse than my other headaches. I grew up with my mother complaining about migraines, but I suspect she used the word as a synonym for ?bad?, mainly when she wanted us to leave her alone. I don?t get headaches often. Migraines have a different ?flavor? than other headaches. From wawenri at msn.com Tue Nov 2 13:05:35 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:05:35 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: <3C482482-9A0E-4909-825C-4EC6C3BD7C8B@panix.com> References: <3C482482-9A0E-4909-825C-4EC6C3BD7C8B@panix.com> Message-ID: Since everyone is unique, doctors often have a bit of a problem. Certain large scale things like decapitation and cardiectomy are always fatal. For many other things, some treatments work with some people, with other people there?s no effect, and, with others, the results are horrible and/or deadly. If a medication produced 9.9% improvement, 90% nothing, and 0.1% death, we would see a lot of testimonies about how wonderful it is and it would be banned, even if there was a way to test for which category the patient would fall into. Last month, Gayle had a bout of sciatica. OTC pain medication had minimal effect and she just can?t do the physical therapy the doctor suggested. We tried some creams that advertise a 70% success rate. She?s in the other 30%. However, some cream from Australia seems to work for her. At least when we tried it the pain was eased. Does that mean that I endorse this as a cure? Of course not. It means that it seems to have helped her. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of WalterStuartBushell Sent: Tuesday, November 2, 2021 3:37:36 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? > On Nov 1, 2021, at 10:45 PM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Except for Edna, whose sinus pain, or sinus-triggered migraines, our entire household has them for the exact same reasons, barometric pressure change before a storm. It is the sustained change, not a burst of change, that causes it. > > Some doctors don?t believe in that cause because they?ve never had them AND researchers are asking the wrong questions: one elevator ride is not enough. It is the duration at the heart of it. They?ll get out the prescription pad as soon as a drug for it is developed. ? ?Of all the means to insure happiness throughout the whole life, by far the most important is the acquisition of friends.? ~Epicurus -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C69fe8a20348d42be36e108d99de46b0c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637714426644816450%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=y4KaqMfpUCN83pVjtp160kjeTAtTwt5NXFVTlTH1XuM%3D&reserved=0 From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Nov 2 14:24:16 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 14:24:16 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "A. Marina Fournier" You and Gwynne seem to have been dealt raw deals, and I know we all wish you, and others we know, on this list or not, would be freed of it without making things worse. Gwynne: I am very grateful for your sympathy, but my problems are minor compared to people struggling with agonising chronic issues every day. I'm very fortunate that all my issues are manageable, and intermittent. There are so many people, including some here on this board, who face much more serious issues all the time. I can also access any medical help that I need quite easily, and have a good support network. That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy a grumble now and then, or a few choice words at bad moments, but there's others who are way less fortunate, with much greater challenges. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Nov 2 14:28:15 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 14:28:15 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "A. Marina Fournier" My stepfather used Vick?s VapoRub under the nose?against instructions?for clearing sinus congestion. Given my reaction to strong menthol, I was not fond of this. I could never understand why my father liked Hall?s Mentholyptus cough drops. Made me gag as much as I do next to Altoids tins. Gwynne: When we were kids and had breathing problems Mum would put hot water and a spoonful of Vaporub in a tin, then the victim (sorry, patient) would lean over it, and a towel would be draped over their head, leaving them in a little Vicks-fuming tent. I sure cleared the sinuses. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Nov 2 14:32:01 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 14:32:01 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "A. Marina Fournier" I rate my migraines by Tornado or Hurricane scales?Fujita scale, not Beaufort?s (Oh, for once last time . . .toward the Beaufort Sea). Gwynne: It's a good list. I'll add a zero level - or maybe 0.5 - a painless migraine. Yes, I didn't believe it either when I heard about it. I've had a migraine only a few times. I also heard about painless migraines, and thought it was a ridiculous nonsense - but I've had them. Only very rarely. It's really weird; you have every symptom of a migraine except the pain. No, it's not a stroke or anything else, it's hard to explain but if you have one you'll know. Migraine, but painless. Still not fun, though. From kawyle at att.net Tue Nov 2 14:48:27 2021 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 14:48:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1494544370.887478.1635864507704@mail.yahoo.com> I now and then have what I've been told are visual migraines, chiefly consisting of a scintillating scotoma. This is the appearance in my visual field of a multicolored object that looks like small electronic lights brought together in a zig-zag intricate pattern, gradually growing larger and taking over more of my vision until it grows so large as to pass beyond it. I had them more when I had more estrogen in my system. Karen A. Wyle On Tuesday, November 2, 2021, 10:32:15 AM EDT, Gwynne Powell wrote: Gwynne: It's a good list. I'll add a zero level - or maybe 0.5 - a painless migraine. Yes, I didn't believe it either when I heard about it. I've had a migraine only a few times.? I also heard about painless migraines, and thought it was a ridiculous nonsense - but I've had them. Only very rarely. It's really weird; you have every symptom of a migraine except the pain. No, it's not a stroke or anything else, it's hard to explain but if you have one you'll know. Migraine, but painless. Still not fun, though. -- From loisaletafundis at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 15:50:16 2021 From: loisaletafundis at gmail.com (Lois Aleta Fundis) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 11:50:16 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 10:28 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: "A. Marina Fournier" > > My stepfather used Vick?s VapoRub under the nose?against instructions?for > clearing sinus congestion. Given my reaction to strong menthol, I was not > fond of this. > Under the nose, lightly -- NOT a large amount! -- spread on your upper lip. That's how my mom taught me to do it. And ***NOT*** in the nostrils either. Just on the lip underneath the nostrils. When my nose gets really stuffy, at the minimum it reassures me that, yes, I am breathing! And the smell is pleasant (again, when applied lightly). And it reminds me of Mom, who left this mortal coil 35 years ago. (Skin cancer; she had very fair skin.) -- Lois Aleta Fundis loisaletafundis at gmail.com "No one you have ever been and no place you have ever gone ever leaves you. The new parts of you simply jump in the car and go along for the rest of the ride." -- Bruce Springsteen From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Tue Nov 2 16:08:26 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 16:08:26 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 11:50:16 -0400, Lois Aleta Fundis wrote: > >Under the nose, lightly -- NOT a large amount! -- spread on your upper lip. >That's how my mom taught me to do it. And ***NOT*** in the nostrils either. >Just on the lip underneath the nostrils. I'm told it's also popular with cops etc who have to attend autopsies. -- The great thing about pessimists is that 90 percent of the time we're right, and the other 10 percent of the time we are pleasantly surprised. - Jack Duvall From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Tue Nov 2 16:10:51 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 16:10:51 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: <00FE882D-4532-4FD8-B8DE-83386D5150FE@me.com> References: <00FE882D-4532-4FD8-B8DE-83386D5150FE@me.com> Message-ID: <7ko2og15r9ediddh4t06viifgf4c52v7jf@4ax.com> On Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:51:08 -0700, "A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold" wrote: >I rate my migraines by Tornado or Hurricane scales?Fujita scale, not Beaufort?s (Oh, for once last time . . .toward the Beaufort Sea). > >F1 is barely there, noticeable but not going anywhere. Sometimes it can be slept out, otherwise throw 2 ibuprofen at it. > >F2 is beginning to interfere with thinking, definite pain. Definitely 2 ibuprofen. Significant stress can cause these. >?Can also be can be a barometric pressure-triggered sinus headache. Definite pain squarely behind the eyes. Nothing works in those. > >Arthur started having migraines at 3, Kurt?s brother as an infant. > >F3 can be a barometric pressure-triggered sinus headache. Significant pain squarely behind the eyes, seriously interferes with executive functions. Nothing works in those. >?Otherwise, it?s a headache that seriously interferes with executive functions. 2 ibuprofen and a fiorinal, lie down a bit with something over my eyes. > >F4 is serious interference with functioning and strong pain. I whimper a lot, need to be in dim & quiet surroundings. Nausea is common. I will not go outside or near windows with strong/direct light. 2 ibuprofen and a fiorinal might work, but I probably need to repeat the ibuprofen in 3-4 hours, and the ibuprofen in 6. May continue the next day. > >F5 is so much pain I can?t function, need to be in dim & quiet surroundings: cannot tolerate light or sound. Nausea definite, vomiting is likely, as is vertigo. Bedridden. I?d scream with the pain, or cry, but that would only make my head throb worse. 3-4 ibuprofen and a fiorinal may not work, and I can only hope sleep will claim me, and free me of the pain, but carrying on at a slightly lower level for a day or two more can happen. > >I have yet to be hospitalized or in the ER for migraines with pain. The painless extreme vertigo with off-true horizontal double vision ones, twice. Those are very scary! >Thank Hygeia those last have stopped: nothing to do but wait them out horizontally. After many years of suffering, my brother-in-law (v2.0) has begun treatment with monoclonal antibodies, which reduce the frequency and severity considerably. There have been times when he was only capable of working 2 or 3 days a week; the new treatment had (so far) limited occurrences to perhaps a day or so a month, and at lower levels of incapacity. -- The great thing about pessimists is that 90 percent of the time we're right, and the other 10 percent of the time we are pleasantly surprised. - Jack Duvall From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Nov 2 16:11:07 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 16:11:07 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Lois Aleta Fundis > From: "A. Marina Fournier" > My stepfather used Vick?s VapoRub under the nose?against instructions?for > clearing sinus congestion. Given my reaction to strong menthol, I was not > fond of this. > Under the nose, lightly -- NOT a large amount! -- spread on your upper lip. That's how my mom taught me to do it. And ***NOT*** in the nostrils either. Just on the lip underneath the nostrils... Lois Aleta Fundis Gwynne: According to certain members of my family, if your eyes aren't watering then you're not using enough. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Tue Nov 2 16:12:30 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 16:12:30 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: <2BEB80A6-FEAA-4B5A-B8BC-23DB3DC61606@brazee.net> References: <00FE882D-4532-4FD8-B8DE-83386D5150FE@me.com> <2BEB80A6-FEAA-4B5A-B8BC-23DB3DC61606@brazee.net> Message-ID: <5po2og5mkavdqhn2m2j07gdam7kpecepr2@4ax.com> On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 06:44:10 -0600, brazee wrote: >My migraines aren?t worse than my other headaches. I grew up with my mother complaining about migraines, but I suspect she used the word as a synonym for ?bad?, mainly when she wanted us to leave her alone. My mother was a martyr to migraines; some of her severe ones lasted up to three *days*. And there was little in the way of medication for them, back then. I get one about every 6-8 months. -- The great thing about pessimists is that 90 percent of the time we're right, and the other 10 percent of the time we are pleasantly surprised. - Jack Duvall From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Tue Nov 2 16:16:31 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 16:16:31 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 14:32:01 +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: >Gwynne: It's a good list. I'll add a zero level - or maybe 0.5 - a painless migraine. >Yes, I didn't believe it either when I heard about it. I've had a migraine only a few >times. I also heard about painless migraines, and thought it was a ridiculous >nonsense - but I've had them. Only very rarely. It's really weird; you have every >symptom of a migraine except the pain. No, it's not a stroke or anything else, it's >hard to explain but if you have one you'll know. Migraine, but painless. Still not fun, >though. One of my nieces gets the visual disturbances without any pain. They thought she was "slow" at school, until she went for an eye test, when she said she couldn't read the chart properly "because of the stars". She had a more-or-less constant visual disturbance, where little starbursts interrupted her vision. She was whisked off to hospital and given MRI scans etc to make sure it wasn't a tumour or anything nasty like that - it was diagnosed as a form of painless migraine, she responded well to medication and now can drive, and graduated from Leeds university in June. -- The great thing about pessimists is that 90 percent of the time we're right, and the other 10 percent of the time we are pleasantly surprised. - Jack Duvall From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Tue Nov 2 16:18:55 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 16:18:55 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Shooting In-Reply-To: <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Nov 2021 17:07:32 +0000, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: >On 01/11/2021 16:21, Marc Wilson wrote: >> Does the statement: "It will rain tomorrow" have a truth value? I'd say >> it does - but we don't know what it is. >Sure, but we can make educated guesses/estimates when we consider the >source (and it's track record). If the source is a weather forecasting >service, the probability of it's being right is better than if the >source is someone with an ulterior motive. In the absence of other information, statistically what tomorrow is likely to be is "like today". Like "turn it off and on again", it's more often successful than you'd suspect. -- The great thing about pessimists is that 90 percent of the time we're right, and the other 10 percent of the time we are pleasantly surprised. - Jack Duvall From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Tue Nov 2 16:20:17 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2021 16:20:17 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Shooting In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: <38p2ogpnu5g0pfkro4oq07i6uhva99jeon@4ax.com> On Mon, 1 Nov 2021 14:14:54 -0500, Eric Oppen wrote: >One thing I've used to shut people up and get them thinking is: > >"Does 'two plus two equals four' stop being true...if David Duke says it?" > >I was very impressed by a play I saw at St. Olaf, called *Enemy of the >People*. It's about a resort town that depends heavily on people coming to >their "Medicinal" spring, and their reaction when the town doctor tells >them that the spring's got something really, really wrong with it. Let us >say that while the doctor is perfectly correct, he is suddenly Not Popular. That's essentially the meta-plot of "Jaws". Every disaster movie starts with a scene where a scientist is being ignored by a politician. -- Pot. Kettle. COLOR="#000000". From cjbotteron at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 16:35:08 2021 From: cjbotteron at gmail.com (Carol Botteron) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 12:35:08 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines Message-ID: >From a list of things people with migraines hate to hear: "Why don't you take an aspirin or something?" "I'd have a headache too, if I had been in a dark room all day." I started to get migraines as a freshling at MIT, with pain and enough visual disturbance that I couldn't read during a migraine. The only medication available at the time was Darvon, which was not very helpful. My grandmother told me that she had had migraines but they stopped by the time she was 50; I was 17 and did not find this comforting. Luckily the problem eased considerably after I graduated. From jpolowin at hotmail.com Tue Nov 2 17:52:08 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 17:52:08 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Karen A. Wyle" wrote: > I now and then have what I've been told are visual migraines, chiefly > consisting of a scintillating scotoma. This is the appearance in my > visual field of a multicolored object that looks like small electronic > lights brought together in a zig-zag intricate pattern, gradually > growing larger and taking over more of my vision until it grows so large > as to pass beyond it. My sweetie, a behavioural neurologist, suffers from migraines occasionally. She notes the symptoms with professional interest, tracking the effects as they involve various parts of her brain. "Okay, it's getting close to [X], I'll probably be having trouble with words in another minute or so." I suppose it's a useful thing to do, as a kind of distraction. Joel From matt.msg at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 19:13:10 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 15:13:10 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Knot of Shadows (aka Penric 11) launches today! In-Reply-To: <88FCBD21-CE96-4AAF-BF54-65CDC763AF7C@brazee.net> References: <900F0607-350F-4528-AFFC-65E524103A8E@me.com> <0F5F8269-7213-479D-A4DE-156D20E2A091@brazee.net> <88FCBD21-CE96-4AAF-BF54-65CDC763AF7C@brazee.net> Message-ID: E-books still have covers. Although my reader skips past them to go straight to the text for some reason. On Sat, Oct 30, 2021 at 11:06 AM brazee wrote: > > > > On Oct 30, 2021, at 8:18 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > Bu, naq OGJ, unir lbh abgvprq gur yvggyr zbhfr ba gur pbire? > > I missed that. E-books. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to matt.msg at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From matt.msg at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 19:22:39 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 15:22:39 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 1:02 PM Joel Polowin wrote: > I wouldn't be at all surprised > if he could relieve neuropathic pain by dumping "uphill magic" into > irritated nerves. Unlikely. When nerves are reacting to something, making them healthier won't make them react less. An aspirin doesn't make your nerves better - aspirin is technically a neurotoxin. Much would depend on the nature of what was causing the nerves to fire. Matt G. From lmb at matija.com Tue Nov 2 19:23:36 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 19:23:36 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Knot of Shadows (aka Penric 11) launches today! In-Reply-To: References: <900F0607-350F-4528-AFFC-65E524103A8E@me.com> <0F5F8269-7213-479D-A4DE-156D20E2A091@brazee.net> <88FCBD21-CE96-4AAF-BF54-65CDC763AF7C@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 02/11/2021 19:13, Matthew George wrote: > E-books still have covers. Although my reader skips past them to go > straight to the text for some reason. The latest kindle has the option of using the front cover of the e-book as the screen-saver when you have it turned off (as long as you don't have the show commercials version instead). Which I find kinda neat. From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 2 19:32:26 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:32:26 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Knot of Shadows (aka Penric 11) launches today! In-Reply-To: References: <900F0607-350F-4528-AFFC-65E524103A8E@me.com> <0F5F8269-7213-479D-A4DE-156D20E2A091@brazee.net> <88FCBD21-CE96-4AAF-BF54-65CDC763AF7C@brazee.net> Message-ID: <1357EB8E-766D-4474-B1F5-4C50820DBA81@brazee.net> > On Nov 2, 2021, at 1:23 PM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > The latest kindle has the option of using the front cover of the e-book as the screen-saver when you have it turned off (as long as you don't have the show commercials version instead). > > Which I find kinda neat. Me too. From matt.msg at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 20:42:35 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 16:42:35 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Shooting In-Reply-To: <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 12:21 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > Does the statement: "It will rain tomorrow" have a truth value? I'd say > it does - but we don't know what it is. > It's the unspoken assertion - "I have sufficient reason to validly assert that it will rain tomorrow" - that's the real issue. Even if whether it will rain cannot be determined, the person speaking can be considered either truthful or lying, regardless of whether they are mistaken or correct. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 20:47:00 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 16:47:00 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Shooting In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 3:15 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > I was very impressed by a play I saw at St. Olaf, called *Enemy of the > People*. It's about a resort town that depends heavily on people coming to > their "Medicinal" spring, and their reaction when the town doctor tells > them that the spring's got something really, really wrong with it. Let us > say that while the doctor is perfectly correct, he is suddenly Not Popular. > Yes, the doctor becomes persona non grata once he takes on a position which is politically incorrect. Ibsen was an optimist, though - demonstrating the point never convinces anyone who believes they're being completely reasonable. "The very powerful and the very stupid have something in common..." Matt G. From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 2 21:08:02 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 15:08:02 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Shooting In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 2, 2021, at 2:42 PM, Matthew George wrote: > > It's the unspoken assertion - "I have sufficient reason to validly assert > that it will rain tomorrow" - that's the real issue. Even if whether it > will rain cannot be determined, the person speaking can be considered > either truthful or lying, regardless of whether they are mistaken or > correct. It?s kind of redundant to say ?I think it will rain tomorrow?. Or ?It?s my opinion that red wines taste better than white wines?. From huntkc at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 21:23:16 2021 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 17:23:16 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: <1E4FA46B-6846-4C4E-82B8-07FB5F054386@me.com> References: <1E4FA46B-6846-4C4E-82B8-07FB5F054386@me.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 10:55 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Oct 31, 2021, at 9:04 AM, Karen Hunt wrote: > > > > ?I was taken to the hospital some hours later, also a surreal > > experience except that I was beyond caring about much of anything. I died > > 18 hours later, but was successfully resuscitated about a minute > > afterwards. Died again the next day, but again resuscitated. > > O Karen-kitty, please don?t use up all nine lives before you?re ready to > go. > Meow*7! (that many to go) :) Karen Hunt From huntkc at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 21:25:08 2021 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 17:25:08 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: <35EA9095-DFFE-476A-9599-37CACAEE98F1@me.com> References: <35EA9095-DFFE-476A-9599-37CACAEE98F1@me.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 10:18 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Oct 31, 2021, at 11:12 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > > ?My God. I hope you get over this illness. Nobody should suffer such > pain. > > > >> On Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 11:04 AM Karen Hunt wrote: > >> > >> Probably only briefly returning... > >> > >> My go-to used to be when I was 12: I was walking in circles, frantic > with > >> the pain in my throat because every breath felt like breathing in fire, > and > >> every time I tried to swallow to relieve that, it felt like something > in my > >> throat ripped. Of course I also had a fever around 104-5, and 4/5 of the > >> lobes in my lungs were consolidated - breathing was more of a rapid > >> panting. I was taken to the hospital some hours later, also a surreal > >> experience except that I was beyond caring about much of anything. I > died > >> 18 hours later, but was successfully resuscitated about a minute > >> afterwards. Died again the next day, but again resuscitated. > >> > >> Now? Well, that still wins, but the best contender for second place is > now > >> March-June 2020, just before I left the list. My hands were nearly > >> paralyzed, with fingers swollen like balloons and terrible pain running > up > >> and down the right arm. I couldn't see the doctor because of lockdown, > >> though I had several zoom sessions with her. All the mistypes on the > list > >> were because I could barely move my fingers. > >> > >> Note: I've tried gallstones and no-med labor pains. The two here were > >> worse. Not necessarily because of the measure of pain but because of the > >> measure of terror. Adding long-lasting terror to pain greatly enhances > the > >> experience. > > I agree?that?s ghastly. Rheumatoid arthritis seems to be one of the worst > chronic pain around. You?ve also been been hit with iatrogenic illness. > > You and Gwynne seem to have been dealt raw deals, and I know we all wish > you, and others we know, on this list or not, would be freed of it without > making things worse. > Most of the time I'm all right (or at least manageable, which I can work with). I've certainly known people who are worse off than me. Karen Hunt From saffronrose at me.com Tue Nov 2 21:33:12 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 14:33:12 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7AD26F60-A68B-48E8-A65A-8B44F07A4E9D@me.com> On Nov 2, 2021, at 7:28 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > ?Gwynne: When we were kids and had breathing problems Mum would put > hot water and a spoonful of Vaporub in a tin, then the victim (sorry, patient) > would lean over it, and a towel would be draped over their head, leaving them > in a little Vicks-fuming tent. It sure cleared the sinuses. We used salt & lemon juice in water in a mixing bowl for that method. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 21:50:11 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 17:50:11 -0400 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers Message-ID: That's everyone here, yes? I've recently re-read Deep Secret by Diana Wynne Jones, and it is awesome. Does anyone know of other books set at a SF/F convention? There's a Harry Dresden book featuring Monsters At The Convention, which was fun. (Make sure to spell Splattercon!!! with the requisite !!!) Conventions (cons & mundane) ought to be a great setting, a way to move people out of their usual place & to meet unusual people, but it seems pretty rare. From profjenn12 at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 21:54:07 2021 From: profjenn12 at gmail.com (J Woodruff) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 17:54:07 -0400 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Asimov's *Murder at the ABA *is set at a con, though not the SF/F type. In the hindsight of 35 years since I first read the book, I will say that it hasn't aged terribly well, though. JLWT *********** *"der Platz einer Frau ist in ihrer Firma""The problem with the speed of light is it comes so early in the morning." (Albert Einstein)* *"Historiography has then three functions: to entertain our imagination, to gratify our curiosity, and to discharge a debt we owe our ancestors." (C.S. Lewis)"If all we have to offer back to the God of the cosmos is Precious Moments, we're in trouble." (Barbara Nicolosi)* *"Some things are complicated, and denying it only makes them more so." (John Churchill)* *?You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyway.? (Robert Jordan)"The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart." (Lois McMaster Bujold)************ On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 5:50 PM Sylvia McIvers wrote: > That's everyone here, yes? > > I've recently re-read Deep Secret by Diana Wynne Jones, and it is awesome. > > Does anyone know of other books set at a SF/F convention? > There's a Harry Dresden book featuring Monsters At The Convention, which > was fun. (Make sure to spell Splattercon!!! with the requisite !!!) > > Conventions (cons & mundane) ought to be a great setting, a way to move > people out of their usual place & to meet unusual people, but it seems > pretty rare. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to profjenn12 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 2 21:56:01 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 15:56:01 -0600 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1FAF5348-6EF9-4E2F-9445-376AD31E9085@brazee.net> Charles Fort Never Mentioned Wombats > On Nov 2, 2021, at 3:50 PM, Sylvia McIvers wrote: > > That's everyone here, yes? > > I've recently re-read Deep Secret by Diana Wynne Jones, and it is awesome. > > Does anyone know of other books set at a SF/F convention? > There's a Harry Dresden book featuring Monsters At The Convention, which > was fun. (Make sure to spell Splattercon!!! with the requisite !!!) > > Conventions (cons & mundane) ought to be a great setting, a way to move > people out of their usual place & to meet unusual people, but it seems > pretty rare. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to howard at brazee.net > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 22:07:28 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 18:07:28 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 12:16 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > > One of my nieces gets the visual disturbances without any pain. > > They thought she was "slow" at school, until she went for an eye test, > when she said she couldn't read the chart properly "because of the > stars". She had a more-or-less constant visual disturbance, where > little starbursts interrupted her vision. > Holy cow. How old was she at the time? The things kids think are normal! Sylvia From matt.msg at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 22:11:32 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 18:11:32 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Shooting In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> Message-ID: It really, really isn't. Critical information is or is not conveyed depending on whether that 'redundant' phrasing is included. One phrasing is making statements about the self, the other about the rest of the world. Matt G. From mark at allums.email Tue Nov 2 22:15:09 2021 From: mark at allums.email (Mark Allums) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 17:15:09 -0500 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: <1FAF5348-6EF9-4E2F-9445-376AD31E9085@brazee.net> References: <1FAF5348-6EF9-4E2F-9445-376AD31E9085@brazee.net> Message-ID: <104b65e7-2f01-805f-a89f-66113389734b@allums.email> Bimbos of the Death Sun by Sharon McCrumb, a mystery. Kind of a cult favorite. Mark A. On 11/2/21 16:56, brazee wrote: > Charles Fort Never Mentioned Wombats > >> On Nov 2, 2021, at 3:50 PM, Sylvia McIvers wrote: >> >> That's everyone here, yes? >> >> I've recently re-read Deep Secret by Diana Wynne Jones, and it is awesome. >> >> Does anyone know of other books set at a SF/F convention? >> There's a Harry Dresden book featuring Monsters At The Convention, which >> was fun. (Make sure to spell Splattercon!!! with the requisite !!!) >> >> Conventions (cons & mundane) ought to be a great setting, a way to move >> people out of their usual place & to meet unusual people, but it seems >> pretty rare. >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to howard at brazee.net >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 2 22:34:39 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 16:34:39 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Shooting In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> Message-ID: <802D2DBE-B8B8-4B88-A4E7-CBA5511806E4@brazee.net> > On Nov 2, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Matthew George wrote: > > It really, really isn't. Critical information is or is not conveyed > depending on whether that 'redundant' phrasing is included. One phrasing > is making statements about the self, the other about the rest of the world. But if I say ?Red wines taste better than white wines?, it would take extended context to communicate that it is anything *but* my opinion. From matt.msg at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 22:51:58 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 18:51:58 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Shooting In-Reply-To: <802D2DBE-B8B8-4B88-A4E7-CBA5511806E4@brazee.net> References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <802D2DBE-B8B8-4B88-A4E7-CBA5511806E4@brazee.net> Message-ID: No, that formulation is making a factual claim about the world. The previous formulation was making a factual claim about your tastes. Just because the distinction is often implicit doesn't mean that people don't often fail to perceive it, or fail to make it. Matt G. From jane at starchak.ca Tue Nov 2 23:01:29 2021 From: jane at starchak.ca (Jane Starr) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 17:01:29 -0600 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00f701d7d03d$9317c530$b9474f90$@starchak.ca> We'll Always Have Parrots by Donna Andrews is set at a fan convention for a cult fantasy tv series. Andrews has other books set at civil war reenactor events and knock-off Ren Faires. Jane > -----Original Message----- > From: Lois-Bujold [mailto:lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk] On Behalf > Of Sylvia McIvers > Sent: November 2, 2021 3:50 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers > > That's everyone here, yes? > > I've recently re-read Deep Secret by Diana Wynne Jones, and it is awesome. > > Does anyone know of other books set at a SF/F convention? > There's a Harry Dresden book featuring Monsters At The Convention, which > was fun. (Make sure to spell Splattercon!!! with the requisite !!!) > > Conventions (cons & mundane) ought to be a great setting, a way to move > people out of their usual place & to meet unusual people, but it seems pretty > rare. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to jane at starchak.ca Lois- > Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi- > bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold Scanned by McAfee and confirmed virus-free. Find out more here: https://bit.ly/2zCJMrO From wawenri at msn.com Tue Nov 2 23:22:40 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 23:22:40 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring chapter 5 Message-ID: I had been more inclined to think that the Lion ring was more indicative than causative in spite of URI?s suddenly offering Thur as an apprentice and Beneforte?s acceptance. However, Thur?s reactions at the inn seem today otherwise. He was drawn to the inn and to Fiametta. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 2 23:35:38 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 17:35:38 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring chapter 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9540B2F9-754B-44A4-AADB-9236F5CAB27B@brazee.net> > On Nov 2, 2021, at 5:22 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > I had been more inclined to think that the Lion ring was more indicative than causative in spite of URI?s suddenly offering Thur as an apprentice and Beneforte?s acceptance. > However, Thur?s reactions at the inn seem today otherwise. He was drawn to the inn and to Fiametta. I?ve seen people on-line asking what kind of superpower you would like. Thur?s is a good one. From wawenri at msn.com Wed Nov 3 00:46:06 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:46:06 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I get what my optometrist calls ?optical migraines?. I get zigzag lines in the center of my field of vision that expand until I can?t se them anymore. I get them once or twice a month. They don?t hurt unless I try to say work through an attack or m driving. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Sylvia McIvers Sent: Tuesday, November 2, 2021 4:07:28 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 12:16 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > > One of my nieces gets the visual disturbances without any pain. > > They thought she was "slow" at school, until she went for an eye test, > when she said she couldn't read the chart properly "because of the > stars". She had a more-or-less constant visual disturbance, where > little starbursts interrupted her vision. > Holy cow. How old was she at the time? The things kids think are normal! Sylvia -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C56da0c5d4b234730705a08d99e4d3601%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637714876721296041%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=JONbYrFO6TSWjajx2RvF3gJCdVnMz8OsuMXxbuOqPMw%3D&reserved=0 From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Wed Nov 3 00:49:18 2021 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2021 00:49:18 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers Message-ID: <4132a552-acc8-4bc9-3c6e-80ae6c742a4c@mindspring.com> Sylvia McIvers is looking for books set at sf cons.? In Rosemary Edghill's Twelve Treasures trilogy, I strongly suspect _The Sword Of Maiden's Tears_, an elf lord in search of a dangerous magic artifact, crosses a worldgate and goes through a science fiction convention, gets commended on his costume, and finds some of the help he needs. ? Jerrie From kawyle at att.net Wed Nov 3 01:12:04 2021 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 01:12:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1046590906.74416.1635901924451@mail.yahoo.com> Scintillating scotoma! Karen A. Wyle On Tuesday, November 2, 2021, 08:46:19 PM EDT, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: I get what my optometrist calls ?optical migraines?. I get zigzag lines in the center of my field of vision that expand until I can?t se them anymore. I get them once or twice a month. They don?t hurt unless I try to say work through an attack or m driving. William A Wenrich ? *? ? A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. _______________________________ From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Wed Nov 3 01:11:43 2021 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 18:11:43 -0700 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <652C3469-2CF2-491D-B1B4-E7323669E4B7@comcast.net> > On Nov 2, 2021, at 2:50 PM, Sylvia McIvers wrote: > > That's everyone here, yes? > > I've recently re-read Deep Secret by Diana Wynne Jones, and it is awesome. > > Does anyone know of other books set at a SF/F convention? > There's a Harry Dresden book featuring Monsters At The Convention, which > was fun. (Make sure to spell Splattercon!!! with the requisite !!!) > > Conventions (cons & mundane) ought to be a great setting, a way to move > people out of their usual place & to meet unusual people, but it seems > pretty rare. Richard Purtill?s _Murdercon_ was set at an SF convention (I don?t believe it sold well, he had stacks of the 1982 Doubleday hardcover to sell back in the day). "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 01:15:55 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 21:15:55 -0400 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: <00f701d7d03d$9317c530$b9474f90$@starchak.ca> References: <00f701d7d03d$9317c530$b9474f90$@starchak.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 7:01 PM Jane Starr wrote: > We'll Always Have Parrots by Donna Andrews is set at a fan convention for a > cult fantasy tv series. Andrews has other books set at civil war reenactor > events and knock-off Ren Faires. > I rec ALL of Donna Andrews' 'Meg Langslow' books. They are wonderful. First introduced to me as "oooh, a lady blacksmith!" and then I was hooked by the zany cast of characters. Sylvia From jelbelser at comcast.net Wed Nov 3 01:43:58 2021 From: jelbelser at comcast.net (Jelbelser) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 20:43:58 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: <1494544370.887478.1635864507704@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1494544370.887478.1635864507704@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 2, 2021, at 9:48 AM, Karen A. Wyle wrote: > > I now and then have what I've been told are visual migraines, chiefly consisting of a scintillating scotoma. This is the appearance in my visual field of a multicolored object that looks like small electronic lights brought together in a zig-zag intricate pattern, gradually growing larger and taking over more of my vision until it grows so large as to pass beyond it. I had them more when I had more estrogen in my system. > Karen A. Wyle When I was in my late teens/early twenties I got migraines once in a while. Alcohol was a trigger. It took me a few years to realize that I was having migraines, not really rapid onset hangovers. I realized that they also happened on days when I lolled in bed and then had light stab me in the eyes. I made myself get out of bed as soon as I woke, (and cut out alcohol) and no more migraines. Then around menopause I started having visual migraines. At first I saw wavering, like looking at heat waves. Then that area would disappear. I?d notice that whatever I was looking at, like the car in front of me, was missing its left side. Not a blank area, but a seamless space warp. It happened three times while I was driving. I made sure to move my head so I knew what was around me, and got home safely. I felt a little off when I got home, but took three aspirin, and they never developed into full migraines. Haven?t had anything like that for years. Janet in TN From saffronrose at me.com Wed Nov 3 03:41:17 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 20:41:17 -0700 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: <4132a552-acc8-4bc9-3c6e-80ae6c742a4c@mindspring.com> References: <4132a552-acc8-4bc9-3c6e-80ae6c742a4c@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <35EBEC48-3913-4DA6-B3CF-5FFE79A69225@me.com> Alas, not in electronic form, and who knows where mine are packed grrr A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala > On Nov 2, 2021, at 5:49 PM, adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com wrote: > > ?Sylvia McIvers is looking for books set at sf cons. In Rosemary Edghill's Twelve Treasures trilogy, I strongly suspect _The Sword Of Maiden's Tears_, an elf lord in search of a dangerous magic artifact, crosses a worldgate and goes through a science fiction convention, gets commended on his costume, and finds some of the help he needs. > > Jerrie > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to saffronrose at me.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From saffronrose at me.com Wed Nov 3 04:05:08 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 21:05:08 -0700 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: <104b65e7-2f01-805f-a89f-66113389734b@allums.email> References: <104b65e7-2f01-805f-a89f-66113389734b@allums.email> Message-ID: <794216D1-0131-4F99-96FE-C90CBEEB3234@me.com> On Nov 2, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Mark Allums wrote: > > ?Bimbos of the Death Sun by Sharon McCrumb, a mystery. Kind of a cult favorite. I bought it when first released, then bought most of her books. The Elizabeth M(a?)cPherson series was somewhat humorous at first?my favorite title was If I?d Killed Him When I Met Him, which was near the end of the series, and not funny. Her Ballad series, set in Appalachia, are dark but enjoyable. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Wed Nov 3 04:19:05 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 21:19:05 -0700 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D766FB6-7B96-4B15-A48E-736F6DB929CA@me.com> On Nov 2, 2021, at 6:16 PM, Sylvia McIvers wrote: > > ?On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 7:01 PM Jane Starr wrote: > >> We'll Always Have Parrots by Donna Andrews is set at a fan convention for a >> cult fantasy tv series. Andrews has other books set at civil war reenactor >> events and knock-off Ren Faires. > > I rec ALL of Donna Andrews' 'Meg Langslow' books. > They are wonderful. First introduced to me as "oooh, a lady blacksmith!" > and then I was hooked by the zany cast of characters. And zany they are! I think the first one was Murder By Puffins. Nearly burst my gut with laughter. I wish she would write more in the Grace Turing series. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From jane at starchak.ca Wed Nov 3 04:23:46 2021 From: jane at starchak.ca (Jane Starr) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 22:23:46 -0600 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: <0D766FB6-7B96-4B15-A48E-736F6DB929CA@me.com> References: <0D766FB6-7B96-4B15-A48E-736F6DB929CA@me.com> Message-ID: <014a01d7d06a$98b616e0$ca2244a0$@starchak.ca> > -----Original Message----- > From: Lois-Bujold [mailto:lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk] On Behalf > Of A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold > On Nov 2, 2021, at 6:16 PM, Sylvia McIvers > wrote: > > > > ?On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 7:01 PM Jane Starr wrote: > > > >> We'll Always Have Parrots by Donna Andrews is set at a fan convention > >> for a cult fantasy tv series. Andrews has other books set at civil > >> war reenactor events and knock-off Ren Faires. > > > > I rec ALL of Donna Andrews' 'Meg Langslow' books. > > They are wonderful. First introduced to me as "oooh, a lady blacksmith!" > > and then I was hooked by the zany cast of characters. > > And zany they are! I think the first one was Murder By Puffins. Nearly burst > my gut with laughter. Murder With Peacocks is the first. It is one of my favourites, although I've enjoyed seeing Meg and her family evolve over the series. The Puffins one is the second book. I recommend the audio book versions, too. The reader is very good and they've got me through a lot of boring housecleaning and stuff :) > I wish she would write more in the Grace Turing series. Turing Hopper. I liked that series, too. It's really hard to find, though. Jane Scanned by McAfee and confirmed virus-free. Find out more here: https://bit.ly/2zCJMrO From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Wed Nov 3 07:01:23 2021 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:01:23 -0700 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: <0D766FB6-7B96-4B15-A48E-736F6DB929CA@me.com> References: <0D766FB6-7B96-4B15-A48E-736F6DB929CA@me.com> Message-ID: <2853F739-815B-4C9B-A64C-08AFEE27BD41@comcast.net> On Nov 2, 2021, at 9:19 PM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > On Nov 2, 2021, at 6:16 PM, Sylvia McIvers wrote: >> >> ?On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 7:01 PM Jane Starr wrote: >> >>> We'll Always Have Parrots by Donna Andrews is set at a fan convention for a >>> cult fantasy tv series. Andrews has other books set at civil war reenactor >>> events and knock-off Ren Faires. >> >> I rec ALL of Donna Andrews' 'Meg Langslow' books. >> They are wonderful. First introduced to me as "oooh, a lady blacksmith!" >> and then I was hooked by the zany cast of characters. > > And zany they are! I think the first one was Murder By Puffins. Nearly burst my gut with laughter. > > I wish she would write more in the Grace Turing series. I believe that is the Turning Hopper (alias Alan Grace) series. I read the 4th book as a wrap up of the whole series (somewhat hurried, IMHO). I suspect that the series didn?t do very well. "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Nov 3 11:26:35 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 11:26:35 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Mark Allums Bimbos of the Death Sun by Sharon McCrumb, a mystery. Kind of a cult favorite. Mark A. Gwynne: I was going to suggest that one! It's glorious - and you just know there's some real people being described here and there. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Nov 3 11:34:04 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 11:34:04 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Sylvia McIvers On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 12:16 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > One of my nieces gets the visual disturbances without any pain. > They thought she was "slow" at school, until she went for an eye test, > when she said she couldn't read the chart properly "because of the > stars". She had a more-or-less constant visual disturbance, where > little starbursts interrupted her vision. Holy cow. How old was she at the time? The things kids think are normal! Sylvia Gwynne: A boy in my class (age 10/11) was diagnosed with double vision so severe that he qualified as partially sighted. This was only discovered by accident during some medical testing. He wasn't all that excited about schoolwork but nobody knew it was because he couldn't see it properly. The thing is, he was sports-mad and played on the school football team, as well as playing some other sports. The doctor couldn't figure out how he could even find the ball, let alone play so well. And the child himself didn't realise he had a problem - he thought everyone saw the same thing as he did, it was just normal. It's incredible what children are able to do to adapt, without anyone realising. Another family had a child who was diagnosed as deaf, but they didn't realise the baby was deaf for a couple of years; they had wooden floors in the house, and the baby/toddler would feel the vibrations and know that someone was nearby, and turn towards them - so they thought she was hearing and reacting. It's terrifying to think what might be going on for some kids without anyone realising. From vanlook19 at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 12:01:45 2021 From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 05:01:45 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Happy Birthday, Lois! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hippo birdie two ewe, Yer Ladyship! BJ From vanlook19 at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 12:03:21 2021 From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 05:03:21 -0700 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 2:50 PM Sylvia McIvers wrote: > Does anyone know of other books set at a SF/F convention? > If an SCA camping event is a "con"... then there's Murder at the War (aka Knightfall) BJ From howard at brazee.net Wed Nov 3 12:28:26 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 06:28:26 -0600 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D7969B2-7932-4F22-8199-415B94AEDA80@brazee.net> Charles Fort Never Mentioned Wombats > On Nov 3, 2021, at 6:03 AM, B Van Look wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 2:50 PM Sylvia McIvers > wrote: > >> Does anyone know of other books set at a SF/F convention? >> > > If an SCA camping event is a "con"... then there's Murder at the War (aka > Knightfall) > > BJ > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to howard at brazee.net > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From kawyle at att.net Wed Nov 3 13:08:33 2021 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 13:08:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Happy Birthday, Lois! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1625575982.181533.1635944913306@mail.yahoo.com> Not sure my previous message went through, so -- happiest of birthdays to Lois, with all the celebration she can stomach! Karen A. Wyle On Wednesday, November 3, 2021, 08:02:09 AM EDT, B Van Look wrote: Hippo birdie two ewe, Yer Ladyship! BJ From proto at panix.com Wed Nov 3 13:12:03 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 09:12:03 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 2, 2021, at 4:47 PM, Matthew George wrote: > >> >> I was very impressed by a play I saw at St. Olaf, called *Enemy of the >> People*. > > Yes, the doctor becomes persona non grata once he takes on a position which > is politically incorrect. Ibsen was an optimist, though - demonstrating > the point never convinces anyone who believes they're being completely > reasonable. OB:Bujold: See the opposition Cordelia gets when she determines to move the capitol of Segyar away from the active volcano. OT colon removed. It has an idea climate and is a great place to live, aside from that. ?Aside from that Widow Lincoln, how did you like the play??. Quinto Ecuador is on the slope of an active volcano. Quito's closest volcano is Pichincha, looming over the western side of the city. Quito is the only capital city that was developed so close to an active volcano.[13] Pichincha volcano has several summits, among them Ruku Pichincha at 4,700 m (15,400 ft) above sea level and Guagua Pichincha at 4,794 m (15,728 ft). Wikipedia Ah, well. As we are now entering the end of the beginning of climate change, we are now all at risk. Remember in Humanities struggle against Nature:Nature is the home team From proto at panix.com Wed Nov 3 13:16:11 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 09:16:11 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Nov 2, 2021, at 6:07 PM, Sylvia McIvers wrote: > > Holy cow. How old was she at the time? > The things kids think are normal! > > Sylvia How would they know??? ? MD. MS. in Law Robert Lustig ?If there?s a label on the food, it?s a warning label. That means it has been processed. Real food doesn?t need a label.? From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Wed Nov 3 14:10:20 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2021 14:10:20 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5u55ogp55foilb87smjokbjunmmfpep4uf@4ax.com> On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 18:07:28 -0400, Sylvia McIvers wrote: >On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 12:16 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > >> >> One of my nieces gets the visual disturbances without any pain. >> >> They thought she was "slow" at school, until she went for an eye test, >> when she said she couldn't read the chart properly "because of the >> stars". She had a more-or-less constant visual disturbance, where >> little starbursts interrupted her vision. >> > > >Holy cow. How old was she at the time? About 12, IIRC. >The things kids think are normal! I was short-sighted from birth, and as kids do, I assumed everyone saw the same sort of vague foggy stuff I did. My first pair of specs (aged 6) were a revelation. And a heartbreak; glasses were not cool, back then, and I was bullied and called a swot. But at least I could see who was calling me names. -- Remember- two wrongs don't make a right...but three lefts do From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Wed Nov 3 14:13:50 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2021 14:13:50 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8565ogtih30ncobd5of7r511a2koujmtb3@4ax.com> On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 17:50:11 -0400, Sylvia McIvers wrote: >That's everyone here, yes? > >I've recently re-read Deep Secret by Diana Wynne Jones, and it is awesome. > >Does anyone know of other books set at a SF/F convention? >There's a Harry Dresden book featuring Monsters At The Convention, which >was fun. (Make sure to spell Splattercon!!! with the requisite !!!) > >Conventions (cons & mundane) ought to be a great setting, a way to move >people out of their usual place & to meet unusual people, but it seems >pretty rare. Niven and Pournelle's rework of "Inferno" starts at one. -- Remember- two wrongs don't make a right...but three lefts do From proto at panix.com Wed Nov 3 16:00:01 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 12:00:01 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: <5u55ogp55foilb87smjokbjunmmfpep4uf@4ax.com> References: <5u55ogp55foilb87smjokbjunmmfpep4uf@4ax.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 3, 2021, at 10:10 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > I was short-sighted from birth, and as kids do, I assumed everyone saw > the same sort of vague foggy stuff I did. My first pair of specs (aged > 6) were a revelation. And a heartbreak; glasses were not cool, back > then, and I was bullied and called a swot. But at least I could see who > was calling me names. Had some difficulty finding this. Please everyone, define technical terms. > -- Urban Dictionary: Swot https://www.urbandictionary.com???define.php?term=Swot 1) To Swot; Revision undertaken preceding an examination. 2) (Offensive Slang) Swot; A person who values his education at least three times more than his social life and his teacher at least three times more than his friends, hypothetically. 3) (Business Terminology) S.W.O.T.; An analysis of a business's position comparing with other similar businesses in order to ... ? ?Of all the means to insure happiness throughout the whole life, by far the most important is the acquisition of friends.? ~Epicurus From fred.fredex at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 16:22:35 2021 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 12:22:35 -0400 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: <35EBEC48-3913-4DA6-B3CF-5FFE79A69225@me.com> References: <4132a552-acc8-4bc9-3c6e-80ae6c742a4c@mindspring.com> <35EBEC48-3913-4DA6-B3CF-5FFE79A69225@me.com> Message-ID: Asimov's Murder at the ABA is set at a booksellers convention... On Tue, Nov 2, 2021, 23:41 A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > Alas, not in electronic form, and who knows where mine are packed grrr > > A. Marina Fournier > saffronrose at me.com > Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e > Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA > Sent from iFionnghuala > > > On Nov 2, 2021, at 5:49 PM, adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com wrote: > > > > ?Sylvia McIvers is looking for books set at sf cons. In Rosemary > Edghill's Twelve Treasures trilogy, I strongly suspect _The Sword Of > Maiden's Tears_, an elf lord in search of a dangerous magic artifact, > crosses a worldgate and goes through a science fiction convention, gets > commended on his costume, and finds some of the help he needs. > > > > Jerrie > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to saffronrose at me.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From litalex at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 16:48:12 2021 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 12:48:12 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Happy Birthday, Lois! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, > On Nov 3, 2021, at 08:01, B Van Look wrote: > > Hippo birdie two ewe, Yer Ladyship! Happy birthday, Lois! May I ask if the Russian fans drew any pictures to celebrate, like before? little Alex From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 17:39:40 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 12:39:40 -0500 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: <8565ogtih30ncobd5of7r511a2koujmtb3@4ax.com> References: <8565ogtih30ncobd5of7r511a2koujmtb3@4ax.com> Message-ID: I was about to mention *Murder at the War/Knightfall* (by Mary Monica Pulver, first in a series) myself. Besides *Bimbos of the Death Sun* and *Zombies of the Gene Pool*, McCrumb wrote *Highland Laddie Gone*, about a murder at some American Highland games put on by Scottish-Americans who want to keep some of their old culture. My impression from all three books is that McCrumb doesn't much like hobbies like that, for some reason. Both the SF/fantasy fen and American Highlanders she portrays are portrayed as utter fools who need to grow up and get lives. On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 9:14 AM Marc Wilson wrote: > On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 17:50:11 -0400, Sylvia McIvers > wrote: > > >That's everyone here, yes? > > > >I've recently re-read Deep Secret by Diana Wynne Jones, and it is awesome. > > > >Does anyone know of other books set at a SF/F convention? > >There's a Harry Dresden book featuring Monsters At The Convention, which > >was fun. (Make sure to spell Splattercon!!! with the requisite !!!) > > > >Conventions (cons & mundane) ought to be a great setting, a way to move > >people out of their usual place & to meet unusual people, but it seems > >pretty rare. > > Niven and Pournelle's rework of "Inferno" starts at one. > -- > Remember- two wrongs don't make a right...but three lefts do > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 17:56:23 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 12:56:23 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: Naples is close to Vesuvius; close enough that if Vesuvius blew up again in the wrong way at the wrong time, Naples might get the Pompeii treatment. And throughout the rest of Italy...there would be much rejoicing, or so I hear. If an Italian wants to tell someone "Go to Hell!" he says "Va fa Napoli!" On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 8:12 AM WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > > > On Nov 2, 2021, at 4:47 PM, Matthew George wrote: > > > >> > >> I was very impressed by a play I saw at St. Olaf, called *Enemy of the > >> People*. > > > > Yes, the doctor becomes persona non grata once he takes on a position > which > > is politically incorrect. Ibsen was an optimist, though - demonstrating > > the point never convinces anyone who believes they're being completely > > reasonable. > > OB:Bujold: See the opposition Cordelia gets when she determines to move > the capitol > of Segyar away from the active volcano. OT colon removed. It has an idea > climate and > is a great place to live, aside from that. > > ?Aside from that Widow Lincoln, how did you like the play??. > > > > Quinto Ecuador is on the slope of an active volcano. > > Quito's closest volcano is Pichincha, looming over the western side of the > city. Quito is the only capital city that was developed so close to an > active volcano.[13] Pichincha volcano has several summits, among them Ruku > Pichincha at 4,700 m (15,400 ft) above sea level and Guagua Pichincha at > 4,794 m (15,728 ft). Wikipedia > > > Ah, well. As we are now entering the end of the beginning of climate > change, > we are now all at risk. Remember in Humanities struggle against > Nature:Nature > is the home team > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 17:57:02 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 12:57:02 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Happy Birthday, Lois! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Happy birthday, Lois! On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 11:48 AM Alex Kwan wrote: > Hello, > > > On Nov 3, 2021, at 08:01, B Van Look wrote: > > > > Hippo birdie two ewe, Yer Ladyship! > > Happy birthday, Lois! > > May I ask if the Russian fans drew any pictures to celebrate, like before? > > little Alex > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Wed Nov 3 17:57:29 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 13:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: <8565ogtih30ncobd5of7r511a2koujmtb3@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Nov 2021, Eric Oppen wrote: > Besides *Bimbos of the Death Sun* and *Zombies of the Gene Pool*, McCrumb > wrote *Highland Laddie Gone*, about a murder at some American Highland > games put on by Scottish-Americans who want to keep some of their old > culture. My impression from all three books is that McCrumb doesn't much > like hobbies like that, for some reason. Both the SF/fantasy fen and > American Highlanders she portrays are portrayed as utter fools who need to > grow up and get lives. I remember Bimbos as one of the nastiest books about an inoffensive community which I'd ever read. Avoid it. Let it molder away. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Nov 3 17:58:06 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 17:58:06 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Happy Birthday, Lois! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Big birthday happies to Lois! From wawenri at msn.com Wed Nov 3 18:07:27 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 18:07:27 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gayle had one of the children in her preschool class tested. He was severely nearsighted. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell Sent: Wednesday, November 3, 2021 5:34:04 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines From: Sylvia McIvers On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 12:16 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > One of my nieces gets the visual disturbances without any pain. > They thought she was "slow" at school, until she went for an eye test, > when she said she couldn't read the chart properly "because of the > stars". She had a more-or-less constant visual disturbance, where > little starbursts interrupted her vision. Holy cow. How old was she at the time? The things kids think are normal! Sylvia Gwynne: A boy in my class (age 10/11) was diagnosed with double vision so severe that he qualified as partially sighted. This was only discovered by accident during some medical testing. He wasn't all that excited about schoolwork but nobody knew it was because he couldn't see it properly. The thing is, he was sports-mad and played on the school football team, as well as playing some other sports. The doctor couldn't figure out how he could even find the ball, let alone play so well. And the child himself didn't realise he had a problem - he thought everyone saw the same thing as he did, it was just normal. It's incredible what children are able to do to adapt, without anyone realising. Another family had a child who was diagnosed as deaf, but they didn't realise the baby was deaf for a couple of years; they had wooden floors in the house, and the baby/toddler would feel the vibrations and know that someone was nearby, and turn towards them - so they thought she was hearing and reacting. It's terrifying to think what might be going on for some kids without anyone realising. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ca8ac7c2b5cdf425fff7208d99ebdde1a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637715360575359402%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=1lE4uQELWOZlOuXSzZ7QP%2BQ83HlYz79cNogg%2BELlNic%3D&reserved=0 From baur at chello.at Wed Nov 3 18:07:25 2021 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 19:07:25 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: and naples has been the capital of the kingdom of naples for a long time - so it would fulfill that criteria as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Naples besides - its sits right between an active volcano and an active supervolcano servus markus Am 03.11.2021 um 18:56 schrieb Eric Oppen: > Naples is close to Vesuvius; close enough that if Vesuvius blew up again in > the wrong way at the wrong time, Naples might get the Pompeii treatment. > > And throughout the rest of Italy...there would be much rejoicing, or so I > hear. If an Italian wants to tell someone "Go to Hell!" he says "Va fa > Napoli!" > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 8:12 AM WalterStuartBushell wrote: > >> >> >>> On Nov 2, 2021, at 4:47 PM, Matthew George wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> I was very impressed by a play I saw at St. Olaf, called *Enemy of the >>>> People*. >>> >>> Yes, the doctor becomes persona non grata once he takes on a position >> which >>> is politically incorrect. Ibsen was an optimist, though - demonstrating >>> the point never convinces anyone who believes they're being completely >>> reasonable. >> >> OB:Bujold: See the opposition Cordelia gets when she determines to move >> the capitol >> of Segyar away from the active volcano. OT colon removed. It has an idea >> climate and >> is a great place to live, aside from that. >> >> ?Aside from that Widow Lincoln, how did you like the play??. >> >> >> >> Quinto Ecuador is on the slope of an active volcano. >> >> Quito's closest volcano is Pichincha, looming over the western side of the >> city. Quito is the only capital city that was developed so close to an >> active volcano.[13] Pichincha volcano has several summits, among them Ruku >> Pichincha at 4,700 m (15,400 ft) above sea level and Guagua Pichincha at >> 4,794 m (15,728 ft). Wikipedia >> >> >> Ah, well. As we are now entering the end of the beginning of climate >> change, >> we are now all at risk. Remember in Humanities struggle against >> Nature:Nature >> is the home team >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Wed Nov 3 18:11:49 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 14:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Gappy birthday, Lois! Message-ID: The weather channel shows the weather today in your neck of the woods is sunny with cloudy periods and a fine 11C/52F - just great for fall. I hope there's still some lovely colours in the trees and you can enjoy the day! Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Wed Nov 3 18:14:25 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 14:14:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Gappy birthday, Lois! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And as usual, I proofread the mail text and forget to proof the subject line. That's HAPPY birthday, Lois! Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 18:19:05 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 13:19:05 -0500 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I found the overall tone of that book pretty offensive. I'm not saying that you don't find people like she describes at SF/fantasy cons, but they are by no means the whole story. Kind of like how I've complained about how, when the news media *spit* cover a big SF con, they push past lots of nice people who could explain just what's going on, to zero in on the fattiest, smelliest, sweatiest, neckbearded basement-dwelling geek they can find, wearing the most obviously-fake Spock ears, and portray this guy as absolutely typical of the con as a whole, instead of someone most of us put up with. On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 6:26 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Mark Allums > > Bimbos of the Death Sun by Sharon McCrumb, a mystery. Kind of a cult > favorite. > Mark A. > > Gwynne: I was going to suggest that one! It's glorious - and you just know > there's some real people being described here and there. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From cjbotteron at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 18:35:12 2021 From: cjbotteron at gmail.com (Carol Botteron) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 14:35:12 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Chalion Timeline Message-ID: Timeline for Chalion - Five Gods series https://archiveofourown.org/works/14902947 >From 2018. A note says it is adapted from http://chalion.wikia.com/wiki/Chalion_Wiki From matt.msg at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 19:30:27 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 15:30:27 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: References: <5u55ogp55foilb87smjokbjunmmfpep4uf@4ax.com> Message-ID: Quasi-epileptic seizures are more common than people realize, and their effects depend heavily on what part of the brain is involved. Vary the location, and you can lose vision, experience bizarre smells, or stop breathing and die. There's a current technology that uses focused magnetic pulses to 'knock out' specific regions of the brain by inducing low-level regional seizures. I wonder how similar the experience is to migraine halo events. Matt G. From tlambs1138 at charter.net Wed Nov 3 19:37:51 2021 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 12:37:51 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Bad Birthday Tixie! Sit! Stay! Message-ID: <054a01d7d0ea$4ab0e2b0$e012a810$@charter.net> I fell down and forgot to pass on the November list to Harvey. So here we go! Lois McMaster Bujold, your treat for your 72nd birthday is a long session with Dag, reinforcing your ground, along with straightening the things that need to be straightened out and relaxing the things that need to be relaxed. You're in the house where Dag and Fawn (and a few babies) live near the river. After the ground session, you then sleep the clock around and wake up without any pain in any of your joints or back. You have quite the appetite for the hearty breakfast that Fawn sets up, and boy, does it smell good! You have a good time gossiping and digesting afterwards. Other guests arrive (the river brings down everyone). First is a tall, gloriously blond man in the white and braids of the Bastard. You and Penric/Desdemona have a wonderful chat (Fawn asks her usual quota of amazingly intelligent questions, and Desdemona like hers a lot). In fact, Penric mentions a few adventures that he hasn't mentioned to you yet and has written down (in English, yay!), and hands you a sheaf of paper. Afterwards, you tuck away those papers for later examination, because you can hear the noise of a hyper little maniac and his family outside the door. Fawn doesn't mind-she's used to feeding the legions. Sasha asks you nicely if you'll pose for him, too. Later, Aral and Cordelia (and Jole) wander by in time for dinner. In fact, you realize that Dag and Fawn's house has somehow expanded to include a host of guests, including a bunch of the fans here on the List. Because it's your turn to have *your* bow down. After all, your pen has killed more malices than anybody else! Happy Birthday!!! Elanor Wenrich, Happy 10th Birthday! Your birthday treat is to attend the bow down along with your grandpa (though you sneak around back where Barr has the horses and sneak in a little bit of supervised riding). You tell some of the people there about hot air balloons and your grandpa going up in one, and the guy named Whit takes you aside and asks how much you know about how they're put together. After all, if someone could go up in a balloon, even if tethered, it would be easier to spot edges of Blight by the way the plants go different colors. And of course, people who are tired of the hired carriages to go look at the Blight might pay to go up in the air. However, you and your grandpa have a wonderful time at the bow down. Happy Birthday!!! Jean Lamb tlambs1138 at charter.net https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20 From brad at kazrak.com Wed Nov 3 20:14:02 2021 From: brad at kazrak.com (Brad Jones) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 13:14:02 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Chalion Timeline In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I somewhat regret not putting in all the references that I used for that. I'm not 100% sure on the 'exactly 50 years' thing any more, and when I did a similar timeline for the Hive Mind series by Janet Edwards, I marked things that were 'thirty years ago' to indicate that they may not be exact. Some dates in there are 'G+X' based on the Golden General, some are 'C-X" based on Cazaril, some are based on Ista and Ias, and then all anchored together by the years where we can connect. Maybe I'll go through and update with references, some day in my copious free time. On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 11:35 AM Carol Botteron wrote: > Timeline for Chalion - Five Gods series > https://archiveofourown.org/works/14902947 > > From 2018. A note says it is adapted from > http://chalion.wikia.com/wiki/Chalion_Wiki > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to brad at kazrak.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Wed Nov 3 20:56:59 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 14:56:59 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: <6D455D73-8FEA-40B7-A064-DAB261FB642D@brazee.net> > On Nov 3, 2021, at 11:56 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > Naples is close to Vesuvius; close enough that if Vesuvius blew up again in > the wrong way at the wrong time, Naples might get the Pompeii treatment. > > And throughout the rest of Italy...there would be much rejoicing, or so I > hear. If an Italian wants to tell someone "Go to Hell!" he says "Va fa > Napoli!? I?ve read that the derogatory term ?wop? was originally ?guapo?, and it referred to people from Naples who were seen as show-offs. I wonder how long such an approbation lasts in popular culture. From howard at brazee.net Wed Nov 3 20:59:33 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 14:59:33 -0600 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: <8565ogtih30ncobd5of7r511a2koujmtb3@4ax.com> Message-ID: <8453B6AA-AAB8-46E6-B230-127CA655B479@brazee.net> Kristine Kathryn Rusch has a series of stories with a protagonist who fixes problems in SF conventions. From kawyle at att.net Wed Nov 3 21:02:58 2021 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 21:02:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: <8453B6AA-AAB8-46E6-B230-127CA655B479@brazee.net> References: <8565ogtih30ncobd5of7r511a2koujmtb3@4ax.com> <8453B6AA-AAB8-46E6-B230-127CA655B479@brazee.net> Message-ID: <465392701.346520.1635973378163@mail.yahoo.com> I'd love to know more about this series! Karen A. Wyle On Wednesday, November 3, 2021, 04:59:47 PM EDT, brazee wrote: Kristine Kathryn Rusch has a series of stories with a protagonist who fixes problems in SF conventions. From lmb at matija.com Wed Nov 3 21:05:28 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 21:05:28 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: <8453B6AA-AAB8-46E6-B230-127CA655B479@brazee.net> References: <8565ogtih30ncobd5of7r511a2koujmtb3@4ax.com> <8453B6AA-AAB8-46E6-B230-127CA655B479@brazee.net> Message-ID: <889dcaaa-9fca-306f-e2ef-e77ba2fdde24@matija.com> On 03/11/2021 20:59, brazee wrote: > Kristine Kathryn Rusch has a series of stories with a protagonist who fixes problems in SF conventions. And there is Niven/Pournelle book "Fallen Angels" about a conspiracy of SF convention goers who help a pair of stranded astronauts. From maireg83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 21:21:16 2021 From: maireg83 at gmail.com (Sue Nicholson) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 10:21:16 +1300 Subject: [LMB] Donna Andrews In-Reply-To: References: <00f701d7d03d$9317c530$b9474f90$@starchak.ca> Message-ID: To bring this (sort of) on topic; the fourth (I think) in the series is called Revenge of the Wrought-Iron Flamingoes; and Lois's daughter Anne (Who really is a lady blacksmith) actually has done a flamingo piece. SueN Sylvia wrote: > I rec ALL of Donna Andrews' 'Meg Langslow' books. They are wonderful. > First introduced to me as "oooh, a lady blacksmith!" > and then I was hooked by the zany cast of characters. From matt.msg at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 22:07:27 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 18:07:27 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: <6D455D73-8FEA-40B7-A064-DAB261FB642D@brazee.net> References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> <6D455D73-8FEA-40B7-A064-DAB261FB642D@brazee.net> Message-ID: There really is no nation of 'Italy'. After Rome fell, the country split into regional kingdoms, each of which was and is mildly contemptuous of the others, seeing them as rivals and inferiors. It's part of why Italy has maintained such a diversity in customs: only one's own village does things properly, the next village over can't do anything worth a damn, and the bordering regions aren't worth considering. They were only unified by force. Rather like the Prussian kingdoms into Germany, in fact. The relative success of this method is what motivated the continuance of WWI, although its repeated failure when applied to the entirety of Europe should have been a warning. Matt G. On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 4:57 PM brazee wrote: > > > > On Nov 3, 2021, at 11:56 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > > > Naples is close to Vesuvius; close enough that if Vesuvius blew up again > in > > the wrong way at the wrong time, Naples might get the Pompeii treatment. > > > > And throughout the rest of Italy...there would be much rejoicing, or so I > > hear. If an Italian wants to tell someone "Go to Hell!" he says "Va fa > > Napoli!? > > > I?ve read that the derogatory term ?wop? was originally ?guapo?, and it > referred to people from Naples who were seen as show-offs. I wonder how > long such an approbation lasts in popular culture. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to matt.msg at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From matt.msg at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 22:13:49 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 18:13:49 -0400 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: <889dcaaa-9fca-306f-e2ef-e77ba2fdde24@matija.com> References: <8565ogtih30ncobd5of7r511a2koujmtb3@4ax.com> <8453B6AA-AAB8-46E6-B230-127CA655B479@brazee.net> <889dcaaa-9fca-306f-e2ef-e77ba2fdde24@matija.com> Message-ID: *Night of the Living Trekkies* is about a zombie holocaust taking place at a Star Trek convention. https://www.quirkbooks.com/book/night-living-trekkies#newsletter Brought to you by the people who published *Pride and Prejudice and Zombies*. Hmm. Matt "serial offenders" G. From saffronrose at me.com Wed Nov 3 22:54:06 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 15:54:06 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C133F9E-E76D-48A1-8A99-3D5DF8169055@me.com> On Nov 3, 2021, at 11:08 AM, markus baur wrote: > > ?and naples has been the capital of the kingdom of naples for a long time - so it would fulfill that criteria as well > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Naples > > besides - its sits right between an active volcano and an active supervolcano Gah. And here I have no interest in living in the PNW! Just nervous, not the people there! Why is it that Iceland appeals more, with similar tectonic issues? It?s not just skyr, geothermal energy, the lovely sound of its language. Sheeps! That must be it?lambies & sheepses. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Wed Nov 3 23:11:52 2021 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2021 23:11:52 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers Message-ID: <64e6b018-99e2-a625-d49e-95db6de19e1b@mindspring.com> Howard Brazee notes, "Kristine Kathryn Rusch has a series of stories with a protagonist who fixes problems in SF conventions." Karen A. Wyle eagerly pipes up, "I'd love to know more about this series!" ? They're the Spade/Paladin stories.? There's a 5-story collection:? https://www.amazon.com/Early-Conundrums-Spade-Paladin-Collection-ebook/dp/B00KYG67R0 for 5.99, or individual stories are 2.99 or so.? Aside from the collection, there are also several additional stories.? Each is a stand-alone, & they can be read in any order.? I recommend them very highly. ? Jerrie From howard at brazee.net Wed Nov 3 23:59:03 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 17:59:03 -0600 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: <64e6b018-99e2-a625-d49e-95db6de19e1b@mindspring.com> References: <64e6b018-99e2-a625-d49e-95db6de19e1b@mindspring.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 3, 2021, at 5:11 PM, adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com wrote: > > Howard Brazee notes, "Kristine Kathryn Rusch has a series of stories with a protagonist who fixes problems in SF conventions." > Karen A. Wyle eagerly pipes up, "I'd love to know more about this series!? I?ve seen them in her weekly free stories in https://kriswrites.com/ She?s on Goodreads https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43989.Kristine_Kathryn_Rusch From jpolowin at hotmail.com Thu Nov 4 00:25:07 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 00:25:07 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Mark Allums > Bimbos of the Death Sun by Sharon McCrumb, a mystery.? Kind of a cult > favorite. > > Gwynne: I was going to suggest that one!? It's glorious - and you just know > there's some real people being described here and there. I didn't like that one at all. Its caricaturing seemed mean-spirited, and the mystery aspect was poorly handled -- the victim would absolutely *not* have behaved as he did to the then-unidentified murderer, in the murder scene. Howard Brazee mentioned DeWeese and Coulson's _Charles Fort Never Mentioned Wombats_. It's the sequel to _Now You See It/Him/Them_, also a lot of fun. Joel From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 00:44:49 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 20:44:49 -0400 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: <794216D1-0131-4F99-96FE-C90CBEEB3234@me.com> References: <104b65e7-2f01-805f-a89f-66113389734b@allums.email> <794216D1-0131-4F99-96FE-C90CBEEB3234@me.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 12:05 AM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > ..... The Elizabeth M(a?)cPherson series was somewhat humorous at first?my > favorite title was If I?d Killed Him When I Met Him, which was near the end > of the series, and not funny. > Is that the series with "I still miss my man... but my aim is getting better" as an actual title? Fun. > Her Ballad series, set in Appalachia, are dark but enjoyable. > I read & enjoyed those too Couldn't believe it was the same author! From wawenri at msn.com Thu Nov 4 01:49:51 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 01:49:51 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Like how they show all people with high IQs as straight from the set of Big Bang Theory. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Eric Oppen Sent: Wednesday, November 3, 2021 12:19:05 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers I found the overall tone of that book pretty offensive. I'm not saying that you don't find people like she describes at SF/fantasy cons, but they are by no means the whole story. Kind of like how I've complained about how, when the news media *spit* cover a big SF con, they push past lots of nice people who could explain just what's going on, to zero in on the fattiest, smelliest, sweatiest, neckbearded basement-dwelling geek they can find, wearing the most obviously-fake Spock ears, and portray this guy as absolutely typical of the con as a whole, instead of someone most of us put up with. On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 6:26 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Mark Allums > > Bimbos of the Death Sun by Sharon McCrumb, a mystery. Kind of a cult > favorite. > Mark A. > > Gwynne: I was going to suggest that one! It's glorious - and you just know > there's some real people being described here and there. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C085b24d99b874528749208d99ef67705%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637715603656937632%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=4HoVwh4WVT2N4yJscv78%2Fo9sX9dXjK5XzoGjWftJ4Ew%3D&reserved=0 > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C085b24d99b874528749208d99ef67705%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637715603656937632%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=4HoVwh4WVT2N4yJscv78%2Fo9sX9dXjK5XzoGjWftJ4Ew%3D&reserved=0 From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 01:52:50 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 20:52:50 -0500 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's why I don't like that show. On Wed, Nov 3, 2021, 8:50 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Like how they show all people with high IQs as straight from the set of > Big Bang Theory. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > > > > I found the overall tone of that book pretty offensive. I'm not saying > that you don't find people like she describes at SF/fantasy cons, but they > are by no means the whole story. > > Kind of like how I've complained about how, when the news media *spit* > cover a big SF con, they push past lots of nice people who could explain > just what's going on, to zero in on the fattiest, smelliest, sweatiest, > neckbearded basement-dwelling geek they can find, wearing the most > obviously-fake Spock ears, and portray this guy as absolutely typical of > the con as a whole, instead of someone most of us put up with. > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 6:26 AM Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > > From: Mark Allums > > > > Bimbos of the Death Sun by Sharon McCrumb, a mystery. Kind of a cult > > favorite. > > Mark A. > > > > Gwynne: I was going to suggest that one! It's glorious - and you just > know > > there's some real people being described here and there. > > -- > > From wawenri at msn.com Thu Nov 4 01:58:09 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 01:58:09 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Chalion Timeline In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was wondering whether at the time of the Golden General the quadrenes had conquered East as well as West. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Brad Jones Sent: Wednesday, November 3, 2021 2:14:02 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Chalion Timeline I somewhat regret not putting in all the references that I used for that. I'm not 100% sure on the 'exactly 50 years' thing any more, and when I did a similar timeline for the Hive Mind series by Janet Edwards, I marked things that were 'thirty years ago' to indicate that they may not be exact. Some dates in there are 'G+X' based on the Golden General, some are 'C-X" based on Cazaril, some are based on Ista and Ias, and then all anchored together by the years where we can connect. Maybe I'll go through and update with references, some day in my copious free time. On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 11:35 AM Carol Botteron wrote: > Timeline for Chalion - Five Gods series > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farchiveofourown.org%2Fworks%2F14902947&data=04%7C01%7C%7C5a1186433d2b4f4b83b008d99f068666%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637715672645115483%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=YISbyz%2FDaJdBUaCTmhCSzvlrDNexT77eiCzCjJY%2FKnY%3D&reserved=0 > > From 2018. A note says it is adapted from > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fchalion.wikia.com%2Fwiki%2FChalion_Wiki&data=04%7C01%7C%7C5a1186433d2b4f4b83b008d99f068666%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637715672645115483%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=tD7vXPZhcSUUArkWxLbf14JWwXEwGOH1IKbin0OYpwg%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to brad at kazrak.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C5a1186433d2b4f4b83b008d99f068666%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637715672645115483%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=nulXi8M%2B70VL%2F%2F04EzrkcI0jhGNW6yNx87WANsaRjGI%3D&reserved=0 > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C5a1186433d2b4f4b83b008d99f068666%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637715672645115483%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=nulXi8M%2B70VL%2F%2F04EzrkcI0jhGNW6yNx87WANsaRjGI%3D&reserved=0 From lbujold at myinfmail.com Thu Nov 4 02:13:48 2021 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 21:13:48 -0500 Subject: [LMB] thanks for good party bad Tixie -- Bad Birthday Tixie! Sit! Stay! Message-ID: <30f50ef2-ba95-7f5f-07f6-dd741a5afbad@myinfmail.com> [LMB] Bad Birthday Tixie! Sit! Stay! Jean Lamb tlambs1138 at charter.net Wed Nov 3 19:37:51 GMT 2021 Lois McMaster Bujold, your treat for your 72nd birthday is a long session with Dag, reinforcing your ground, along with straightening the things that need to be straightened out and relaxing the things that need to be relaxed. *Wonderful*.? Best birthday present ever. Also, a splendid party!? Though I was late to it as well. Thanks, everyone, for the good wishes bests, Lois. (Nope, haven't heard from the Russians this year.? Hope all are well over there.) From vanlook19 at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 04:05:10 2021 From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 21:05:10 -0700 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 11:19 AM Eric Oppen wrote: > Kind of like how I've complained about how, when the news media *spit* > cover a big SF con, they push past lots of nice people who could explain > just what's going on, to zero in on the fattiest, smelliest, sweatiest, > neckbearded basement-dwelling geek they can find, wearing the most > obviously-fake Spock ears, and portray this guy as absolutely typical of > the con as a whole, instead of someone most of us put up with. > As Niven wrote: There is no cause so noble that it does not attract fuggheads. At any event, the reporter will find, and interview, the fugghead. BJ From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Thu Nov 4 04:22:02 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 00:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Nov 2021, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > OB:Bujold: See the opposition Cordelia gets when she determines to move the capitol > of Sergyar away from the active volcano. OT colon removed. It has an idea climate and > is a great place to live, aside from that. Just finished listening to an audiobook of Heinlein's _Tunnel in the Sky_ this week. It unfortunately seems to have been attacked by the Suck Fairy in the decades since I last read it. (It's not so much how he depicts the female characters. It's how they're treated by the male characters as without a doubt secondary and to be "protected", and how they in general fawn over and automatically obey the male characters...) Back on topic: partway through the book our hero Rod has been arguing -- with very good reason -- that the initial site for their "town" is indefensible and they should move to a series of caves he has found that would provide a much safer location. Others demur because they've put so much effort into the current location (sunk cost fallacy) and he loses the argument. Then they are attacked by the "stobors" as Rod had predicted, and the current mayor dies heroically saving everyone -- so Rod immediately changes his mind 180 degrees and now argues they must stay in memory of that sacrifice. Struck me as stupidly emotional and quite dumb. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 05:04:42 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 00:04:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: You're right about *Tunnel*, although, keep in mind just WHEN RAH wrote it. I could also point out that the Zulu girl (I'm blanking on her name) and Rod's sister are neither of them portrayed as exactly weak or helpless. Under the primitive conditions the castaways in *Tunnel* were living in, women would tend to be relegated to roles that they've mostly left behind in our technologically-advanced society---the more so when you take into account that they don't have birth control available AFAWK. On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 11:22 PM wrote: > On Wed, 3 Nov 2021, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > OB:Bujold: See the opposition Cordelia gets when she determines to move > the capitol > > of Sergyar away from the active volcano. OT colon removed. It has an > idea climate and > > is a great place to live, aside from that. > > Just finished listening to an audiobook of Heinlein's _Tunnel in the Sky_ > this week. It unfortunately seems to have been attacked by the Suck Fairy > in the decades since I last read it. > > (It's not so much how he depicts the female characters. It's how they're > treated by the male characters as without a doubt secondary and to be > "protected", and how they in general fawn over and automatically obey the > male characters...) > > Back on topic: partway through the book our hero Rod has been arguing -- > with very good reason -- that the initial site for their "town" is > indefensible and they should move to a series of caves he has found that > would provide a much safer location. Others demur because they've put so > much effort into the current location (sunk cost fallacy) and he loses the > argument. > > Then they are attacked by the "stobors" as Rod had predicted, and the > current mayor dies heroically saving everyone -- so Rod immediately > changes his mind 180 degrees and now argues they must stay in memory of > that sacrifice. > > Struck me as stupidly emotional and quite dumb. > > Alayne > > -- > Alayne McGregor > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > > What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We > need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the > institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate > and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 05:05:56 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 00:05:56 -0500 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know of another example, but discussing that would lead us into the swamps of modern politics, so I shall (for once) exercise restraint. On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 11:05 PM B Van Look wrote: > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 11:19 AM Eric Oppen > wrote: > > > Kind of like how I've complained about how, when the news media *spit* > > cover a big SF con, they push past lots of nice people who could explain > > just what's going on, to zero in on the fattiest, smelliest, sweatiest, > > neckbearded basement-dwelling geek they can find, wearing the most > > obviously-fake Spock ears, and portray this guy as absolutely typical of > > the con as a whole, instead of someone most of us put up with. > > > > As Niven wrote: > There is no cause so noble that it does not attract fuggheads. > At any event, the reporter will find, and interview, the fugghead. > > BJ > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rgmolpus at flash.net Thu Nov 4 06:08:38 2021 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard G. Molpus) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 06:08:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1017851757.1032915.1636006118064@mail.yahoo.com> If it bleeds, it leads.? If it stinks, it sells.? If it weeps, it wins. On Thursday, November 4, 2021, 12:06:21 AM CDT, Eric Oppen wrote: I know of another example, but discussing that would lead us into the swamps of modern politics, so I shall (for once) exercise restraint. On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 11:05 PM B Van Look wrote: > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 11:19 AM Eric Oppen > wrote: > > > Kind of like how I've complained about how, when the news media *spit* > > cover a big SF con, they push past lots of nice people who could explain > > just what's going on, to zero in on the fattiest, smelliest, sweatiest, > > neckbearded basement-dwelling geek they can find, wearing the most > > obviously-fake Spock ears, and portray this guy as absolutely typical of > > the con as a whole, instead of someone most of us put up with. > > From lmb at matija.com Thu Nov 4 07:59:46 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 07:59:46 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: On 04/11/2021 04:22, alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: > (It's not so much how he depicts the female characters. It's how > they're treated by the male characters as without a doubt secondary > and to be "protected", and how they in general fawn over and > automatically obey the male characters...) Note that the book was published in 1955. I've recently been watching some old TV series, and it's amazing how prevalent that mindset was even in late 60s/ 70s, even well into the eighties. > Back on topic: partway through the book our hero Rod has been arguing > -- with very good reason -- that the initial site for their "town" is > indefensible and they should move to a series of caves he has found > that would provide a much safer location. Others demur because they've > put so much effort into the current location (sunk cost fallacy) and > he loses the argument. > Then they are attacked by the "stobors" as Rod had predicted, and the > current mayor dies heroically saving everyone -- so Rod immediately > changes his mind 180 degrees and now argues they must stay in memory > of that sacrifice. Heinlein was very big on motivation being the primary differential for success - which is, IMHO, explained by his background as an officers training school (Annapolis) graduate who never faced actual combat. The French, before WW1, also cherished that theory (as did most other nations, but I read about it in the context of the French), i.e. that elan is what is most important, that the troops with the most elan will prevail no matter what disadvantages. In the era of single shot rifles and swords (and cavalry charges), the idea had unquestionable merit. Against machine guns, elan was .... less effective than predicted. (Google translates "elan" as "momentum", which doesn't do it justice, IMHO). > Struck me as stupidly emotional and quite dumb. Combat is emotional. Sometimes during and definitely both before and after. How you channel that emotion affects how effective you are in combat, which is why the elan concept was so pernicious. But I definitely agree that it was not smart. The attack proved his point that the position was indefensible, but his reasoning is: a) Now we have the measure of the danger here (wrong) b) So many people died defending this place, which makes it special. Fighting for a special place will make us fight harder, therefore it's worth it. (Elan. That's why it is pernicious) c) This place is "the devil we know" (see a), while the caves are the devil we don't know. The caves could have posed other dangers (flooding, animals resident in the caves, or mobbing the caves periodically, etc). What they should have done is do a thorough inspection of the caves (for things like signs of flooding, piles of bones, etc), then figure out what is a symbol of their place, and move THAT. It could be a flag, or a "home sweet home" engraving, or whatever he could connect people to emotionally. Humans don't need to emotionally attach to a place. A person, or a symbol, can work just as well. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 11:15:48 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 06:15:48 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: <35EA9095-DFFE-476A-9599-37CACAEE98F1@me.com> Message-ID: My mom died from Copd. She smoked until she was 70 years old. She died just before Christmas. Emotionally it was a hard time. I had a Christmas tree and gifts under it. Other then a dinner with friends I no longer put a Christmas tree or decorate the house. Frankly Christmas is dead to me. On Tue, Nov 2, 2021, 4:25 PM Karen Hunt wrote: > On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 10:18 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > On Oct 31, 2021, at 11:12 PM, Raymond Collins > wrote: > > > > > > ?My God. I hope you get over this illness. Nobody should suffer such > > pain. > > > > > >> On Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 11:04 AM Karen Hunt wrote: > > >> > > >> Probably only briefly returning... > > >> > > >> My go-to used to be when I was 12: I was walking in circles, frantic > > with > > >> the pain in my throat because every breath felt like breathing in > fire, > > and > > >> every time I tried to swallow to relieve that, it felt like something > > in my > > >> throat ripped. Of course I also had a fever around 104-5, and 4/5 of > the > > >> lobes in my lungs were consolidated - breathing was more of a rapid > > >> panting. I was taken to the hospital some hours later, also a surreal > > >> experience except that I was beyond caring about much of anything. I > > died > > >> 18 hours later, but was successfully resuscitated about a minute > > >> afterwards. Died again the next day, but again resuscitated. > > >> > > >> Now? Well, that still wins, but the best contender for second place is > > now > > >> March-June 2020, just before I left the list. My hands were nearly > > >> paralyzed, with fingers swollen like balloons and terrible pain > running > > up > > >> and down the right arm. I couldn't see the doctor because of lockdown, > > >> though I had several zoom sessions with her. All the mistypes on the > > list > > >> were because I could barely move my fingers. > > >> > > >> Note: I've tried gallstones and no-med labor pains. The two here were > > >> worse. Not necessarily because of the measure of pain but because of > the > > >> measure of terror. Adding long-lasting terror to pain greatly enhances > > the > > >> experience. > > > > I agree?that?s ghastly. Rheumatoid arthritis seems to be one of the worst > > chronic pain around. You?ve also been been hit with iatrogenic illness. > > > > You and Gwynne seem to have been dealt raw deals, and I know we all wish > > you, and others we know, on this list or not, would be freed of it > without > > making things worse. > > > > Most of the time I'm all right (or at least manageable, which I can work > with). I've certainly known people who are worse off than me. > > Karen Hunt > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 11:19:44 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 06:19:44 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Happy Birthday, Lois! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Happy birthday to you! Lois. On Wed, Nov 3, 2021, 12:57 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > Happy birthday, Lois! > > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 11:48 AM Alex Kwan wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > > On Nov 3, 2021, at 08:01, B Van Look wrote: > > > > > > Hippo birdie two ewe, Yer Ladyship! > > > > Happy birthday, Lois! > > > > May I ask if the Russian fans drew any pictures to celebrate, like > before? > > > > little Alex > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Nov 4 12:21:05 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 12:21:05 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Chalion Timeline In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Carol Botteron Timeline for Chalion - Five Gods series https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farchiveofourown.org%2Fworks%2F14902947&data=04%7C01%7C%7C3ac2c25906314785c16a08d99f0ff8eb%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637715713241834173%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=YGwagKv4RriNd32NaiJD8%2BRIBP3%2FEweNO6UO6bY8tbc%3D&reserved=0 Gwynne: Thanks for this. My only question is about Orico; I thought he was older than Ista. I thought that he was married and not producing an heir; and that was why Ias married Ista. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Nov 4 12:28:17 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 12:28:17 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Joel Polowin Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Mark Allums > Bimbos of the Death Sun by Sharon McCrumb, a mystery.? Kind of a cult > favorite. > > Gwynne: I was going to suggest that one!? It's glorious - and you just know > there's some real people being described here and there. I didn't like that one at all. Its caricaturing seemed mean-spirited, and the mystery aspect was poorly handled -- the victim would absolutely *not* have behaved as he did to the then-unidentified murderer, in the murder scene Gwynne: I liked it because of the caricature - it seemed to me that it was so deliberately overblown as it was playing with the stereotypes that outsiders have about it all. It was totally ridiculous, and nothing would have happened that way in a real investigation. (Although I still think a few of the minor characters tucked in around the edges were based closely on real people - but not the main characters or main events.) Us laughing at their view of ourselves, mostly. Her Appalachian books have a totally different tone - and most of them are heartwrenching. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Nov 4 12:37:32 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 12:37:32 +0000 Subject: [LMB] =?utf-8?b?4oCLVGltZWxpbmU=?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gwynne: Another timeline question... How long after Hallowed Hunt is Penric and Desdemona? Because Desdemona has been around for two hundred years or so... is there any overlap between Desdemona and Hallowed Hunt? From huntkc at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 12:45:39 2021 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 08:45:39 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Chalion Timeline In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 8:21 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Carol Botteron > > Timeline for Chalion - Five Gods series > > https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farchiveofourown.org%2Fworks%2F14902947&data=04%7C01%7C%7C3ac2c25906314785c16a08d99f0ff8eb%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637715713241834173%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=YGwagKv4RriNd32NaiJD8%2BRIBP3%2FEweNO6UO6bY8tbc%3D&reserved=0 > > Gwynne: Thanks for this. My only question is about Orico; I thought he > was older than Ista. I thought that he was married and not producing an > heir; and that was why Ias married Ista. > > I'd say Orico likely is older than Ista. Paladin says Ista was 18 when she married Ias, who "had reached his fifties" at that time. (about midway into chapter 4, kindle says "page 57, location 987") Orico as a sole-surviving son could be any age, but my guess would have him at least in his early 20s. Curse of Chalion doesn't seem to say more than that Orico was fully grown at this point (about midway into chapter 2 (page 30, location 466). In any case, Orico didn't get married until Teidez was born, so that's not the reason for Ias's marriage. ("page 67", location 992) Karen From huntkc at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 12:48:50 2021 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 08:48:50 -0400 Subject: [LMB] =?utf-8?b?4oCLVGltZWxpbmU=?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Penric is ~150 years after Hallowed Hunt, so yes, there is likely about 50 years of overlap. But Desdemona is spending those years in Cedonia, in rather rural parts, so she's not likely to be in the area. If Penric knows the tale, it's more likely from reading tales when he was young in the Cantons or later when studying in the Weald than from her. Karen On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 8:37 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Gwynne: Another timeline question... > > How long after Hallowed Hunt is Penric and Desdemona? > > Because Desdemona has been around for two hundred years or > so... is there any overlap between Desdemona and Hallowed Hunt? > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to huntkc at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From wawenri at msn.com Thu Nov 4 13:25:50 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 13:25:50 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: This thread should tell me how much I need to wait a day before replying. Those who did said what I wanted to say better than I would have. Note, from the Notebooks, ?Women and Children first?. IIRC, the girls name was Caroline. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold Sent: Thursday, November 4, 2021 1:59:46 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Cc: Matija Grabnar Subject: Re: [LMB] Unpopular truths On 04/11/2021 04:22, alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: > (It's not so much how he depicts the female characters. It's how > they're treated by the male characters as without a doubt secondary > and to be "protected", and how they in general fawn over and > automatically obey the male characters...) Note that the book was published in 1955. I've recently been watching some old TV series, and it's amazing how prevalent that mindset was even in late 60s/ 70s, even well into the eighties. > Back on topic: partway through the book our hero Rod has been arguing > -- with very good reason -- that the initial site for their "town" is > indefensible and they should move to a series of caves he has found > that would provide a much safer location. Others demur because they've > put so much effort into the current location (sunk cost fallacy) and > he loses the argument. > Then they are attacked by the "stobors" as Rod had predicted, and the > current mayor dies heroically saving everyone -- so Rod immediately > changes his mind 180 degrees and now argues they must stay in memory > of that sacrifice. Heinlein was very big on motivation being the primary differential for success - which is, IMHO, explained by his background as an officers training school (Annapolis) graduate who never faced actual combat. The French, before WW1, also cherished that theory (as did most other nations, but I read about it in the context of the French), i.e. that elan is what is most important, that the troops with the most elan will prevail no matter what disadvantages. In the era of single shot rifles and swords (and cavalry charges), the idea had unquestionable merit. Against machine guns, elan was .... less effective than predicted. (Google translates "elan" as "momentum", which doesn't do it justice, IMHO). > Struck me as stupidly emotional and quite dumb. Combat is emotional. Sometimes during and definitely both before and after. How you channel that emotion affects how effective you are in combat, which is why the elan concept was so pernicious. But I definitely agree that it was not smart. The attack proved his point that the position was indefensible, but his reasoning is: a) Now we have the measure of the danger here (wrong) b) So many people died defending this place, which makes it special. Fighting for a special place will make us fight harder, therefore it's worth it. (Elan. That's why it is pernicious) c) This place is "the devil we know" (see a), while the caves are the devil we don't know. The caves could have posed other dangers (flooding, animals resident in the caves, or mobbing the caves periodically, etc). What they should have done is do a thorough inspection of the caves (for things like signs of flooding, piles of bones, etc), then figure out what is a symbol of their place, and move THAT. It could be a flag, or a "home sweet home" engraving, or whatever he could connect people to emotionally. Humans don't need to emotionally attach to a place. A person, or a symbol, can work just as well. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C28f5f33e22a5405e6a2108d99f691969%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637716096015446296%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=tHFnJjXovwBBCWw4gzpSxJmuXdgtQVXOWnUDgs%2FooKQ%3D&reserved=0 From howard at brazee.net Thu Nov 4 13:27:46 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 07:27:46 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 3, 2021, at 10:22 PM, alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: > > Then they are attacked by the "stobors" as Rod had predicted, and the current mayor dies heroically saving everyone -- so Rod immediately changes his mind 180 degrees and now argues they must stay in memory of that sacrifice. > > Struck me as stupidly emotional and quite dumb. It?s been a long time since I read it. Protagonists who are stupidly emotional and quite dumb are human. I wonder if Heinlein?s flavor here is of his ?competent protagonist?, which he does a lot, which upset you. But that wouldn?t fit this story. From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 14:25:51 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 10:25:51 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 3:59 AM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > Note that the book was published in 1955. I've recently been watching > some old TV series, and it's amazing how prevalent that mindset was even > in late 60s/ 70s, even well into the eighties. > > In the eighties, you could see the character of society shifting via one particularly memorable radio commercial (ie, I remembered it as soon as I read the above lines) ...blah blah Anchor bank blah blah "Your anchor banker, he understands." "That's right, your anchor banker, SHE understands." What an astonishing thing, that a banker could be a woman. Not just the tellers, the actual bankers! Girls can grow up to be bankers! Whereas before, girls get told not to worry their pretty little heads about money. Sylvia, who did not go into banking From wawenri at msn.com Thu Nov 4 14:59:57 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 14:59:57 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: <35EA9095-DFFE-476A-9599-37CACAEE98F1@me.com> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- Raymond Collins My mom died from Copd. She smoked until she was 70 years old. She died just before Christmas. Emotionally it was a hard time. I had a Christmas tree and gifts under it. Other then a dinner with friends I no longer put a Christmas tree or decorate the house. Frankly Christmas is dead to me. ====================================================================== Sorry for your loss. I hope you will be able to heal. William A Wenrich Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. From wawenri at msn.com Thu Nov 4 16:50:24 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 16:50:24 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Flowers of Vashnoi vs Chernobyl Exclusion Zone Message-ID: I just watched a video about the CEZ and was struck by its comparison to FoV. Herself certainly seems to have done her homework, especially about people moving back into the area. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From fishman at panix.com Thu Nov 4 16:52:31 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 16:52:31 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: Well, the OED defines 'elan' as a. An impetuous rush (e.g. of troops). and secondarily as b. In English use chiefly abstract: Ardour, impetuousness, vivacity. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold" To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Cc: "Matija Grabnar" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 11/4/2021 3:59:46 AM Subject: Re: [LMB] Unpopular truths >On 04/11/2021 04:22, alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: >>(It's not so much how he depicts the female characters. It's how they're treated by the male characters as without a doubt secondary and to be "protected", and how they in general fawn over and automatically obey the male characters...) >Note that the book was published in 1955. I've recently been watching some old TV series, and it's amazing how prevalent that mindset was even in late 60s/ 70s, even well into the eighties. >>Back on topic: partway through the book our hero Rod has been arguing -- with very good reason -- that the initial site for their "town" is indefensible and they should move to a series of caves he has found that would provide a much safer location. Others demur because they've put so much effort into the current location (sunk cost fallacy) and he loses the argument. >>Then they are attacked by the "stobors" as Rod had predicted, and the current mayor dies heroically saving everyone -- so Rod immediately changes his mind 180 degrees and now argues they must stay in memory of that sacrifice. > >Heinlein was very big on motivation being the primary differential for success - which is, IMHO, explained by his background as an officers training school (Annapolis) graduate who never faced actual combat. > >The French, before WW1, also cherished that theory (as did most other nations, but I read about it in the context of the French), i.e. that elan is what is most important, that the troops with the most elan will prevail no matter what disadvantages. In the era of single shot rifles and swords (and cavalry charges), the idea had unquestionable merit. Against machine guns, elan was .... less effective than predicted. (Google translates "elan" as "momentum", which doesn't do it justice, IMHO). > >>Struck me as stupidly emotional and quite dumb. > >Combat is emotional. Sometimes during and definitely both before and after. How you channel that emotion affects how effective you are in combat, which is why the elan concept was so pernicious. > >But I definitely agree that it was not smart. The attack proved his point that the position was indefensible, but his reasoning is: > >a) Now we have the measure of the danger here (wrong) > >b) So many people died defending this place, which makes it special. Fighting for a special place will make us fight harder, therefore it's worth it. (Elan. That's why it is pernicious) > >c) This place is "the devil we know" (see a), while the caves are the devil we don't know. The caves could have posed other dangers (flooding, animals resident in the caves, or mobbing the caves periodically, etc). > >What they should have done is do a thorough inspection of the caves (for things like signs of flooding, piles of bones, etc), then figure out what is a symbol of their place, and move THAT. It could be a flag, or a "home sweet home" engraving, or whatever he could connect people to emotionally. Humans don't need to emotionally attach to a place. A person, or a symbol, can work just as well. > >-- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Thu Nov 4 17:56:26 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 13:56:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, Eric Oppen wrote: > You're right about *Tunnel*, although, keep in mind just WHEN RAH wrote > it. Yes, before many of us were even born. It actually reminds me of the stories my mother told me of the discrimination she faced in the workforce, and the assumptions that women would leave the workforce when they got pregnant. > I could also point out that the Zulu girl (I'm blanking on her name) > and Rod's sister are neither of them portrayed as exactly weak or > helpless. Caroline and Rod's sister and Jacqueline were depicted as strong, smart women -- smarter than Rod in several instances (for example about what planet the students were on). That's why their "roll over and beg" attitude towards the men they hooked up with (or his sister's early comment that she would immediately give up a good career to marry almost any man) were so bizarre. > Under the primitive conditions the castaways in *Tunnel* were living in, > women would tend to be relegated to roles that they've mostly left behind > in our technologically-advanced society---the more so when you take into > account that they don't have birth control available AFAWK. Don't see why this follows. And the idea of sending young women off on these tests w/o birth control implants -- and preferably also control of menstrual periods -- seems practically criminal to me. (And SURELY a society with serious overpopulation problems would have developed good birth control? right?) Actually the whole idea of sending 17 or 18 year olds off on such a test seems pretty crazy. And the romanticization of the frontier -- I'd tend to think of the Laura Ingalls Wilder books like The Long Winter as more realistic. And the idea that planets would be automatically Earth-habitable? Doubtful. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Thu Nov 4 17:59:35 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 13:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > Heinlein was very big on motivation being the primary differential for > success - which is, IMHO, explained by his background as an officers training > school (Annapolis) graduate who never faced actual combat. Very good points... [...] > But I definitely agree that it was not smart. The attack proved his point > that the position was indefensible, but his reasoning is: > > a) Now we have the measure of the danger here (wrong) > > b) So many people died defending this place, which makes it special. Fighting > for a special place will make us fight harder, therefore it's worth it. > (Elan. That's why it is pernicious) > > c) This place is "the devil we know" (see a), while the caves are the devil > we don't know. The caves could have posed other dangers (flooding, animals > resident in the caves, or mobbing the caves periodically, etc). > > What they should have done is do a thorough inspection of the caves (for > things like signs of flooding, piles of bones, etc), then figure out what is > a symbol of their place, and move THAT. It could be a flag, or a "home sweet > home" engraving, or whatever he could connect people to emotionally. Humans > don't need to emotionally attach to a place. A person, or a symbol, can work > just as well. Agreed. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 18:09:42 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 13:09:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: Another thing that didn't exactly pan out was the depiction of Earth as severely overcrowded. That also came up in *Farmer in the Sky.* A lot of the things that moderns fuss about in those books came about at the insistence of Heinlein's editor, Alice Dalgleish. I did not know this woman and may be wronging her, but my impression of her from Heinlein's correspondence in his Collected Works is a combination of Cotton Mather with a sex change with a less-lovable version of Dolores Umbridge. On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 12:59 PM wrote: > On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Heinlein was very big on motivation being the primary differential for > > success - which is, IMHO, explained by his background as an officers > training > > school (Annapolis) graduate who never faced actual combat. > > Very good points... > > [...] > > > But I definitely agree that it was not smart. The attack proved his > point > > that the position was indefensible, but his reasoning is: > > > > a) Now we have the measure of the danger here (wrong) > > > > b) So many people died defending this place, which makes it special. > Fighting > > for a special place will make us fight harder, therefore it's worth it. > > (Elan. That's why it is pernicious) > > > > c) This place is "the devil we know" (see a), while the caves are the > devil > > we don't know. The caves could have posed other dangers (flooding, > animals > > resident in the caves, or mobbing the caves periodically, etc). > > > > What they should have done is do a thorough inspection of the caves (for > > things like signs of flooding, piles of bones, etc), then figure out > what is > > a symbol of their place, and move THAT. It could be a flag, or a "home > sweet > > home" engraving, or whatever he could connect people to emotionally. > Humans > > don't need to emotionally attach to a place. A person, or a symbol, can > work > > just as well. > > Agreed. > > Alayne > > -- > Alayne McGregor > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > > What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We > need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the > institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate > and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 18:18:15 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 13:18:15 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: <35EA9095-DFFE-476A-9599-37CACAEE98F1@me.com> Message-ID: I lost my grandfather on Christmas Day back in the 1970s, and my father the day after Christmas, 1991. My own feelings about the holiday are---mixed, at best. On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 10:00 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > -----Original Message----- > Raymond Collins > > My mom died from Copd. She smoked until she was 70 years old. She died > just before Christmas. Emotionally it was a hard time. I had a Christmas > tree and gifts under it. Other then a dinner with friends I no longer put a > Christmas tree or decorate the house. Frankly Christmas is dead to me. > ====================================================================== > Sorry for your loss. I hope you will be able to heal. > > William A Wenrich > Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Thu Nov 4 18:24:48 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 14:24:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, Eric Oppen wrote: > A lot of the things that moderns fuss about in those books came about at > the insistence of Heinlein's editor, Alice Dalgleish. I did not know > this woman and may be wronging her, but my impression of her from > Heinlein's correspondence in his Collected Works is a combination of > Cotton Mather with a sex change with a less-lovable version of Dolores > Umbridge. That is very true -- particularly the attitudes toward sex and marriage in _Tunnel_. And, for that matter, Rod's apparent lack of interest in sex. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From lmb at matija.com Thu Nov 4 18:38:10 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 18:38:10 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: <8dbb2bcd-ceaa-f693-be38-85eb14bae627@matija.com> On 04/11/2021 17:56, alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: > Don't see why this follows. And the idea of sending young women off on > these tests w/o birth control implants -- and preferably also control > of menstrual periods -- seems practically criminal to me. (And SURELY > a society with serious overpopulation problems would have developed > good birth control? right?) The first appearance of the birth control pill was 5 years after the book was published. It was 11 years before it was legal to be used by even married women. Heinlein failed to predict it. It isn't the first thing he failed to predict, nor the last. As to what a society with a serious problem should do, think about what a society with a global warming problem should do, and then look at what it is actually doing. > Actually the whole idea of sending 17 or 18 year olds off on such a > test seems pretty crazy. 18 year olds get sent to the army all the time. It's been years since I've read that book, but I seem to recall it was an elective class for people who intended to make it their career to go to dangerous places. That part I didn't find incredible. > And the romanticization of the frontier -- I'd tend to think of the > Laura Ingalls Wilder books like The Long Winter as more realistic. And > the idea that planets would be automatically Earth-habitable? Doubtful. With that, I agree. Indisputably within our solar system, but I think even when we find planets in the habitable zones of other solar systems, even if they develop an oxygen rich atmosphere, I doubt the ecosystems would be compatible to the point where humans could just live off the land without some major work. Note that I would LOVE to be proved wrong on this. From matt.msg at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 18:48:36 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 14:48:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: <8dbb2bcd-ceaa-f693-be38-85eb14bae627@matija.com> References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> <8dbb2bcd-ceaa-f693-be38-85eb14bae627@matija.com> Message-ID: Males are expendable. It doesn't matter what we think of the matter - the principle is hardwired into human beings at a level far deeper than rationality, older than our species itself. Matt G. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 18:52:50 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 13:52:50 -0500 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: She was just about as obnoxious about Americans who do Highland games and try to keep Scottish culture, as they understand it, alive in the US in *Highland Laddie Gone*. As I've said, I get the impression that she just doesn't like that sort of hobby. One of her characters in *HLG* is a real Scot, and he's rather scathing about the romantic view of Scotland that the people at the American Games have. That, at least, is fairly authentic. I've talked to Scots and Irish who told me about how disappointed Irish-Americans and Scots-Americans were when they actually visited their ancestral countries, to find that their nostalgic fantasies did not fit the reality. But then, I know of a lot of exchange students who were very disappointed to find that their temporary American homes were not much like the idealized Southern Californian/northeastern suburban homes shown in movies and TV. On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 7:28 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Joel Polowin > > Gwynne Powell wrote: > > From: Mark Allums > > Bimbos of the Death Sun by Sharon McCrumb, a mystery.? Kind of a cult > > favorite. > > > > Gwynne: I was going to suggest that one!? It's glorious - and you just > know > > there's some real people being described here and there. > > I didn't like that one at all. Its caricaturing seemed mean-spirited, > and the mystery aspect was poorly handled -- the victim would absolutely > *not* have behaved as he did to the then-unidentified murderer, in the > murder scene > > Gwynne: I liked it because of the caricature - it seemed to me that it was > so > deliberately overblown as it was playing with the stereotypes that > outsiders > have about it all. It was totally ridiculous, and nothing would have > happened > that way in a real investigation. (Although I still think a few of the > minor > characters tucked in around the edges were based closely on real people - > but > not the main characters or main events.) Us laughing at their view of > ourselves, mostly. > > Her Appalachian books have a totally different tone - and most of them are > heartwrenching. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From jpolowin at hotmail.com Thu Nov 4 19:02:35 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 19:02:35 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: > Don't see why this follows. And the idea of sending young women off on > these tests w/o birth control implants -- and preferably also control of > menstrual periods -- seems practically criminal to me. (And SURELY a > society with serious overpopulation problems would have developed good > birth control? right?) The test was only supposed to be a week or so long. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that whatever they brought along for the purpose ran out. I have some trouble getting into the head space of someone who's under those conditions to guess how much they'd be planning ahead for birth control. Some would probably be expecting to be too busy to need it, under conditions where getting distracted from one's environment could be lethal. (I could imagine the course instructor automatically flunking anyone who made it clear that they planned to be getting distracted by having sex, in the middle of a survival outing.) Others might be thinking along the lines of "survival in adversity" hormones. In the summer before my last year of high school, my school had set up the PET minicomputers in a room by the guidance department, so those of us who were so inclined could go in and work on them. One day, I saw that the counsellors had a bunch of posters spread out, about birth control and STDs. They told me that they were planning to put them up in the student washrooms. I asked with some surprise if that was really a big enough issue that they had to put up such posters, and they gave me a *look*, and said that yes, it was. Evidently I wasn't inhabiting quite the same school as many of my classmates. > Actually the whole idea of sending 17 or 18 year olds off on such a test > seems pretty crazy. That, I'll grant you. Perhaps it's just one more system for reducing overpopulation. :-) > And the idea that planets would be automatically > Earth-habitable? Doubtful. The test sites were chosen to be reasonably survivable with intelligent equipment choices. The instructor flunked several people for poor thinking because they brought along stuff like vacuum gear, on the grounds that they should have known that they wouldn't be dumped into an environment like that without advance warning. Joel From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Thu Nov 4 19:13:37 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:13:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, Eric Oppen wrote: > One of her characters in *HLG* is a real Scot, and he's rather scathing > about the romantic view of Scotland that the people at the American Games > have. That, at least, is fairly authentic. I've talked to Scots and Irish > who told me about how disappointed Irish-Americans and Scots-Americans were > when they actually visited their ancestral countries, to find that their > nostalgic fantasies did not fit the reality. Much like my father, who emigrated to Canada in the late 40s and didn't return to Scotland even for a visit umtil the 70s. Admittedly, his whole family decamped to Canada, too, and it was actually the second time my paternal grandfather/grandmother had emigrated to Canada (WWI intervened). Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Thu Nov 4 19:14:43 2021 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 12:14:43 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: <8dbb2bcd-ceaa-f693-be38-85eb14bae627@matija.com> References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> <8dbb2bcd-ceaa-f693-be38-85eb14bae627@matija.com> Message-ID: <2FE761C1-7544-41D2-90A7-DA1BCCA381B3@comcast.net> > On Nov 4, 2021, at 11:38 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > On 04/11/2021 17:56, alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: >> Don't see why this follows. And the idea of sending young women off on these tests w/o birth control implants -- and preferably also control of menstrual periods -- seems practically criminal to me. (And SURELY a society with serious overpopulation problems would have developed good birth control? right?) > > The first appearance of the birth control pill was 5 years after the book was published. It was 11 years before it was legal to be used by even married women. Heinlein failed to predict it. It isn't the first thing he failed to predict, nor the last. > > As to what a society with a serious problem should do, think about what a society with a global warming problem should do, and then look at what it is actually doing. > >> Actually the whole idea of sending 17 or 18 year olds off on such a test seems pretty crazy. > 18 year olds get sent to the army all the time. It's been years since I've read that book, but I seem to recall it was an elective class for people who intended to make it their career to go to dangerous places. That part I didn't find incredible. IIRC (which I might not since it has been over 30 years since I have read it), most of the people in the class were over 20 years old. Rod was taking the class as an equivalent of Advanced Placement. "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Thu Nov 4 19:31:56 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 15:31:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, Joel Polowin wrote: > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: >> Don't see why this follows. And the idea of sending young women off on >> these tests w/o birth control implants -- and preferably also control of >> menstrual periods -- seems practically criminal to me. (And SURELY a >> society with serious overpopulation problems would have developed good >> birth control? right?) > > The test was only supposed to be a week or so long. I don't think it's > unreasonable to assume that whatever they brought along for the purpose > ran out. That's why I said implants. Pills would be too easy to lose and possibly difficult to take on a steady schedule. > I have some trouble getting into the head space of someone > who's under those conditions to guess how much they'd be planning > ahead for birth control. True. I was actually thinking more of sexual assault. > In the summer before my last year of high school, my school had set up > the PET minicomputers in a room by the guidance department, so those > of us who were so inclined could go in and work on them. One day, I > saw that the counsellors had a bunch of posters spread out, about birth > control and STDs. They told me that they were planning to put them up > in the student washrooms. I asked with some surprise if that was really > a big enough issue that they had to put up such posters, and they gave > me a *look*, and said that yes, it was. Evidently I wasn't inhabiting > quite the same school as many of my classmates. When I was in Grade 8, one classmate got another classmate pregnant -- and this was in a middle-class neighbourhood. >> And the idea that planets would be automatically >> Earth-habitable? Doubtful. > > The test sites were chosen to be reasonably survivable with intelligent > equipment choices. The instructor flunked several people for poor > thinking because they brought along stuff like vacuum gear, on the > grounds that they should have known that they wouldn't be dumped into an > environment like that without advance warning. What I meant wasn't that you couldn't breathe the air -- but that the biomes would require considerable terraforming, like Barrayar. Assuming you could eat the plants or the animals w/o being poisoned or not being able to absorb the nutrients seems a bit of a stretch. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 19:43:10 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 14:43:10 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: <2FE761C1-7544-41D2-90A7-DA1BCCA381B3@comcast.net> References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> <8dbb2bcd-ceaa-f693-be38-85eb14bae627@matija.com> <2FE761C1-7544-41D2-90A7-DA1BCCA381B3@comcast.net> Message-ID: Like I say, keep in mind when this was written and published. If Heinlein had even implied that premarital sex happened, or that girls needed *gasp shudder oh horror* birth control, he'd never have got the book published. On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 2:15 PM Robert Woodward < Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net> wrote: > > > > On Nov 4, 2021, at 11:38 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > On 04/11/2021 17:56, alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: > >> Don't see why this follows. And the idea of sending young women off on > these tests w/o birth control implants -- and preferably also control of > menstrual periods -- seems practically criminal to me. (And SURELY a > society with serious overpopulation problems would have developed good > birth control? right?) > > > > The first appearance of the birth control pill was 5 years after the > book was published. It was 11 years before it was legal to be used by even > married women. Heinlein failed to predict it. It isn't the first thing he > failed to predict, nor the last. > > > > As to what a society with a serious problem should do, think about what > a society with a global warming problem should do, and then look at what it > is actually doing. > > > >> Actually the whole idea of sending 17 or 18 year olds off on such a > test seems pretty crazy. > > 18 year olds get sent to the army all the time. It's been years since > I've read that book, but I seem to recall it was an elective class for > people who intended to make it their career to go to dangerous places. That > part I didn't find incredible. > > IIRC (which I might not since it has been over 30 years since I have read > it), most of the people in the class were over 20 years old. Rod was taking > the class as an equivalent of Advanced Placement. > > "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." > Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. > ?----------------------------------------------------- > Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From proto at panix.com Thu Nov 4 20:17:15 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 16:17:15 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: <0879BF6F-4740-4A22-81F7-EADE8E81D22A@panix.com> > On Nov 4, 2021, at 1:56 PM, alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: > > Don't see why this follows. And the idea of sending young women off on these tests w/o birth control implants -- and preferably also control of menstrual periods -- seems practically criminal to me. (And SURELY a society with serious overpopulation problems would have developed good birth control? right?) Developed, but underused basically for reasons of faith. From howard at brazee.net Thu Nov 4 20:19:10 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 14:19:10 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: <99987187-D60A-4D20-A408-302E6B246E66@brazee.net> > On Nov 4, 2021, at 11:56 AM, alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: > > Don't see why this follows. And the idea of sending young women off on these tests w/o birth control implants -- and preferably also control of menstrual periods -- seems practically criminal to me. (And SURELY a society with serious overpopulation problems would have developed good birth control? right?) > > Actually the whole idea of sending 17 or 18 year olds off on such a test seems pretty crazy. And the romanticization of the frontier -- I'd tend to think of the Laura Ingalls Wilder books like The Long Winter as more realistic. And the idea that planets would be automatically Earth-habitable? Doubtful. Realistically, it was just a summer camp disguised as a reality show (without the cameras). At least as long as everything worked. From howard at brazee.net Thu Nov 4 20:20:16 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 14:20:16 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: <35EA9095-DFFE-476A-9599-37CACAEE98F1@me.com> Message-ID: <75724BBB-7898-4484-9A84-5C531736F10D@brazee.net> > On Nov 4, 2021, at 12:18 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > I lost my grandfather on Christmas Day back in the 1970s, and my father the > day after Christmas, 1991. My own feelings about the holiday are---mixed, > at best. A reason that is so common is that people often hang around for the holiday they loved. From proto at panix.com Thu Nov 4 20:21:33 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 16:21:33 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: <4F47DE8B-B675-495D-A025-D534885A86BD@panix.com> > On Nov 4, 2021, at 2:24 PM, alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: > > That is very true -- particularly the attitudes toward sex and marriage in _Tunnel_. And, for that matter, Rod's apparent lack of interest in sex. > > Alayne Well they were juveniles, and they have to pass the mores of the times. He did manage to give the Star Beast?s hobby as ?raising John Thomases.? From howard at brazee.net Thu Nov 4 20:21:43 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 14:21:43 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: <8dbb2bcd-ceaa-f693-be38-85eb14bae627@matija.com> References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> <8dbb2bcd-ceaa-f693-be38-85eb14bae627@matija.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 4, 2021, at 12:38 PM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > With that, I agree. Indisputably within our solar system, but I think even when we find planets in the habitable zones of other solar systems, even if they develop an oxygen rich atmosphere, I doubt the ecosystems would be compatible to the point where humans could just live off the land without some major work. Note that I would LOVE to be proved wrong on this. That?s where I am. And I suspect that may be why we have a much higher ration of fantasy to science fiction than they had when I was young. From matt.msg at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 20:31:08 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 16:31:08 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> <8dbb2bcd-ceaa-f693-be38-85eb14bae627@matija.com> Message-ID: Heinlein treated exploring the cosmos as though it was the same as European colonization. But, a more realistic treatment probably wouldn't involve humans in space at all. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 22:18:27 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 18:18:27 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: <7AD26F60-A68B-48E8-A65A-8B44F07A4E9D@me.com> References: <7AD26F60-A68B-48E8-A65A-8B44F07A4E9D@me.com> Message-ID: A pea-sized chunk of wasabi will do the trick. You won't enjoy it, unless you have masochistic tendencies. On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 5:33 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > We used salt & lemon juice in water in a mixing bowl for that method. Matt G. From jpolowin at hotmail.com Thu Nov 4 23:48:44 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 23:48:44 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Matija Grabnar wrote: > With that, I agree. Indisputably within our solar system, but I think > even when we find planets in the habitable zones of other solar systems, > even if they develop an oxygen rich atmosphere, I doubt the ecosystems > would be compatible to the point where humans could just live off the > land without some major work. Note that I would LOVE to be proved wrong > on this. I think that the fraction of oxygen-bearing planets that would support basic human needs for proteins, carbs, and fats, just living off the land, will be small. Complete nutrition including vitamins, negligible. In the particular case of the book, Rod brought field rations and enough water that he hoped to be able to stretch it through the test: "avoiding the hazards of contaminated water and the greater hazards of the water hole--assuming that fresh water could be found at all." The instructor also flunked several students for showing up for the test without cold-weather gear, since cold weather was within the stated range of test conditions. "We're looking for graduates, not casualties." Joel From tlambs1138 at charter.net Fri Nov 5 00:35:38 2021 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 17:35:38 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths Message-ID: <075e01d7d1dd$0ea6a9a0$2bf3fce0$@charter.net> It doesn't matter what we think of the matter - the principle is hardwired into human beings at a level far deeper than rationality, older than our species itself. Matt G. ---That's baloney. In every culture, there are *different* ways of being male and female which often look odd to those outside the culture. In Talmudic culture, men sit home and study while women run the business that keeps everyone eating. "She riseth at dawn with her handmaidens and goes to the market". In Arab culture, women could own camel trains, as Muhammed found out. In Nigeria, women are traders. Marriage is different in different cultures, too. But sometimes I think some people want *their* way to be the hardwired way, and no others need apply. This is why I think cats would make religious fanatics; they all believe their ways are right, and all other cats who don't agree are quite mad. Jean Lamb tlambs1138 at charter.net https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20 From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 03:33:08 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 22:33:08 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: <75724BBB-7898-4484-9A84-5C531736F10D@brazee.net> References: <35EA9095-DFFE-476A-9599-37CACAEE98F1@me.com> <75724BBB-7898-4484-9A84-5C531736F10D@brazee.net> Message-ID: It's been six years now since she passed away. I'm starting to heal, but still miss her. On Thu, Nov 4, 2021, 3:20 PM brazee wrote: > > > > On Nov 4, 2021, at 12:18 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > > > I lost my grandfather on Christmas Day back in the 1970s, and my father > the > > day after Christmas, 1991. My own feelings about the holiday > are---mixed, > > at best. > > A reason that is so common is that people often hang around for the > holiday they loved. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 10:22:04 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 05:22:04 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> <8dbb2bcd-ceaa-f693-be38-85eb14bae627@matija.com> Message-ID: I can't recall, but I think it was, "Time Enough for Love" that Heinlein embraced the idea of a Galactic variation of Human Eminent Domain when conquering alien worlds and civilization should be done to colonize their planets for humanity. This was a science fiction trope that Roger Zelazny and Dan Simmons pointed out in both, the short story, "The Furies" And the second "Hyperion" Novel. The fact that human expansion throughout the galaxy would result in the extinction of intelligent native races. Of course in the ending of "Stranger in a Strange Land" the Martians sort of comes around to idea that wiping out humanity might a good idea but, they'll eventually get around to it in a few millennia. Which indicates Heinlein was aware we are a dangerous species. On Thu, Nov 4, 2021, 3:28 PM Matthew George wrote: > Heinlein treated exploring the cosmos as though it was the same as European > colonization. But, a more realistic treatment probably wouldn't involve > humans in space at all. > > Matt G. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 10:41:01 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 05:41:01 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I quite agree. Even if we find a planet has chlorophyll useing flora, there's no evidence that it would be safe. Even on Earth we have plants and bushes that would kill us. Case in point the most deadliest tree is the Manchineel tree. even just touching it can kill you. The truth is colonizing a extraterrestrial planet with lifeforms might be even more expensive then just terraforming a dead planet. On Thu, Nov 4, 2021, 6:48 PM Joel Polowin wrote: > Matija Grabnar wrote: > > With that, I agree. Indisputably within our solar system, but I think > > even when we find planets in the habitable zones of other solar systems, > > even if they develop an oxygen rich atmosphere, I doubt the ecosystems > > would be compatible to the point where humans could just live off the > > land without some major work. Note that I would LOVE to be proved wrong > > on this. > > I think that the fraction of oxygen-bearing planets that would support > basic human needs for proteins, carbs, and fats, just living off the > land, will be small. Complete nutrition including vitamins, negligible. > > In the particular case of the book, Rod brought field rations and enough > water that he hoped to be able to stretch it through the test: "avoiding > the hazards of contaminated water and the greater hazards of the water > hole--assuming that fresh water could be found at all." > > The instructor also flunked several students for showing up for the > test without cold-weather gear, since cold weather was within the > stated range of test conditions. "We're looking for graduates, not > casualties." > > Joel > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 10:44:56 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 05:44:56 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Of course a good curse to some jackass would be "May you frolic necked under a Manchineel tree during a summer downpour." On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 5:41 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > I quite agree. Even if we find a planet has chlorophyll useing flora, > there's no evidence that it would be safe. Even on Earth we have plants > and bushes that would kill us. Case in point the most deadliest tree is the > Manchineel tree. even just touching it can kill you. The truth is > colonizing a extraterrestrial planet with lifeforms might be even more > expensive then just terraforming a dead planet. > > On Thu, Nov 4, 2021, 6:48 PM Joel Polowin wrote: > >> Matija Grabnar wrote: >> > With that, I agree. Indisputably within our solar system, but I think >> > even when we find planets in the habitable zones of other solar >> systems, >> > even if they develop an oxygen rich atmosphere, I doubt the ecosystems >> > would be compatible to the point where humans could just live off the >> > land without some major work. Note that I would LOVE to be proved wrong >> > on this. >> >> I think that the fraction of oxygen-bearing planets that would support >> basic human needs for proteins, carbs, and fats, just living off the >> land, will be small. Complete nutrition including vitamins, negligible. >> >> In the particular case of the book, Rod brought field rations and enough >> water that he hoped to be able to stretch it through the test: "avoiding >> the hazards of contaminated water and the greater hazards of the water >> hole--assuming that fresh water could be found at all." >> >> The instructor also flunked several students for showing up for the >> test without cold-weather gear, since cold weather was within the >> stated range of test conditions. "We're looking for graduates, not >> casualties." >> >> Joel >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> > From proto at panix.com Fri Nov 5 11:01:31 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 07:01:31 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> <8dbb2bcd-ceaa-f693-be38-85eb14bae627@matija.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 5, 2021, at 6:22 AM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > Which indicates > Heinlein was aware we are a dangerous species. Yes, humans are classified as an endangering species, as well as an endangered species. ? ?That which doesn?t make us stronger kills us.? From howard at brazee.net Fri Nov 5 13:03:52 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 07:03:52 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> <8dbb2bcd-ceaa-f693-be38-85eb14bae627@matija.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 5, 2021, at 4:22 AM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > Of course in the ending of "Stranger in a Strange Land" the Martians sort > of comes around to idea that wiping out humanity might a good idea but, > they'll eventually get around to it in a few millennia. Which indicates > Heinlein was aware we are a dangerous species. I didn?t see anything there that the Martians considered us dangerous. From kawyle at att.net Fri Nov 5 13:58:20 2021 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 13:58:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> <8dbb2bcd-ceaa-f693-be38-85eb14bae627@matija.com> Message-ID: <1646490214.832760.1636120700884@mail.yahoo.com> It was indicated that they were likely to end up considering us as dangerous -- or at least, as containing as much "wrongness" -- as the inhabitants of the planet in our solar system that they'd already destroyed. Karen A. Wyle On Friday, November 5, 2021, 09:04:07 AM EDT, brazee wrote: > On Nov 5, 2021, at 4:22 AM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > Of course in the ending of "Stranger in a Strange Land" the Martians sort > of comes around to idea that wiping out humanity might a good idea but, > they'll eventually get around to it in a few millennia. Which indicates > Heinlein was aware we are a dangerous species. I didn?t see anything there that the Martians considered us dangerous. From lbujold at myinfmail.com Fri Nov 5 15:00:53 2021 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 10:00:53 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Flowers of Vashnoi vs Chernobyl Exclusion Zone Message-ID: [LMB] Flowers of Vashnoi vs Chernobyl Exclusion Zone WILLIAM A WENRICH wawenri at msn.com Thu Nov 4 16:50:24 GMT 2021 WW:? I just watched a video about the CEZ and was struck by its comparison to FoV. Herself certainly seems to have done her homework, especially about people moving back into the area. LMB:? Which one?? I drew on (among other things) an excellent and irresistibly titled NOVA episode, /Radioactive Wolves/, but it's quite a few years old by now.? Lots more data since, I'm sure. Ta, L. From jpolowin at hotmail.com Fri Nov 5 15:34:35 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:34:35 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: > On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, Joel Polowin wrote: >> I have some trouble getting into the head space of someone >> who's under those conditions to guess how much they'd be planning >> ahead for birth control. > True. I was actually thinking more of sexual assault. The idea that those young women should have contraceptive protection primarily in case of the possibility of sexual assault is something I have a lot of trouble with. I *know* that it's coming out of the tension between "women shouldn't have to change themselves or their behaviour because of the possibility that men will behave inappropriately" and "nevertheless, the risk is real, and such changes will mitigate the consequenses". Still. Joel From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 01:55:54 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 20:55:54 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: <1646490214.832760.1636120700884@mail.yahoo.com> References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> <8dbb2bcd-ceaa-f693-be38-85eb14bae627@matija.com> <1646490214.832760.1636120700884@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Of course in "The Red Planet" they tolerated the human colonists and even gave one a history lesson, as well as rescuing the two main characters and Willis their bouncer friend. Of course this book was written in 1949 while "Stranger in a Strange Land" was written in 1960. On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 8:58 AM Karen A. Wyle wrote: > It was indicated that they were likely to end up considering us as > dangerous -- or at least, as containing as much "wrongness" -- as the > inhabitants of the planet in our solar system that they'd already destroyed. > Karen A. Wyle > On Friday, November 5, 2021, 09:04:07 AM EDT, brazee < > howard at brazee.net> wrote: > > > > > On Nov 5, 2021, at 4:22 AM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > > Of course in the ending of "Stranger in a Strange Land" the Martians sort > > of comes around to idea that wiping out humanity might a good idea but, > > they'll eventually get around to it in a few millennia. Which indicates > > Heinlein was aware we are a dangerous species. > > I didn?t see anything there that the Martians considered us dangerous. > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 02:00:45 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 21:00:45 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Flowers of Vashnoi vs Chernobyl Exclusion Zone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Discovery channel had a documentary on how the buildings were returning back to nature including parts of the abandoned reactor buildings. On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 10:01 AM Lois Bujold wrote: > [LMB] Flowers of Vashnoi vs Chernobyl Exclusion Zone > WILLIAM A WENRICH wawenri at msn.com > Thu Nov 4 16:50:24 GMT 2021 > > > WW: I just watched a video about the CEZ and was struck by its > comparison to FoV. Herself certainly seems to have done her homework, > especially about people moving back into the area. > > > LMB: Which one? I drew on (among other things) an excellent and > irresistibly titled NOVA episode, /Radioactive Wolves/, but it's quite a > few years old by now. Lots more data since, I'm sure. > > Ta, L. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 04:03:41 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 23:03:41 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> <8dbb2bcd-ceaa-f693-be38-85eb14bae627@matija.com> <1646490214.832760.1636120700884@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think Willis was supposed to be a "nymph," the second stage of the life of a Martian. On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 8:56 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > Of course in "The Red Planet" they tolerated the human colonists and even > gave one a history lesson, as well as rescuing the two main characters and > Willis their bouncer friend. Of course this book was written in 1949 while > "Stranger in a Strange Land" was written in 1960. > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 8:58 AM Karen A. Wyle wrote: > > > It was indicated that they were likely to end up considering us as > > dangerous -- or at least, as containing as much "wrongness" -- as the > > inhabitants of the planet in our solar system that they'd already > destroyed. > > Karen A. Wyle > > On Friday, November 5, 2021, 09:04:07 AM EDT, brazee < > > howard at brazee.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Nov 5, 2021, at 4:22 AM, Raymond Collins > wrote: > > > > > > Of course in the ending of "Stranger in a Strange Land" the Martians > sort > > > of comes around to idea that wiping out humanity might a good idea but, > > > they'll eventually get around to it in a few millennia. Which indicates > > > Heinlein was aware we are a dangerous species. > > > > I didn?t see anything there that the Martians considered us dangerous. > > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 09:28:48 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 04:28:48 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> <8dbb2bcd-ceaa-f693-be38-85eb14bae627@matija.com> <1646490214.832760.1636120700884@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think you're right. Although Willis could also be termed as a pupa. It kind of jibes with early belief that the formation of the solar system started with the outer planets first and the inner last in formation. I.E. Mars evolved first and of course insects where the "oldest" lifeform so Heinlein's Martian's had three legs which where sorta've insectlike. It kinda makes me want to dig up my copy of the "Red Planet" and dive into it. On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 11:04 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > I think Willis was supposed to be a "nymph," the second stage of the life > of a Martian. > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 8:56 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > > > Of course in "The Red Planet" they tolerated the human colonists and even > > gave one a history lesson, as well as rescuing the two main characters > and > > Willis their bouncer friend. Of course this book was written in 1949 > while > > "Stranger in a Strange Land" was written in 1960. > > > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 8:58 AM Karen A. Wyle wrote: > > > > > It was indicated that they were likely to end up considering us as > > > dangerous -- or at least, as containing as much "wrongness" -- as the > > > inhabitants of the planet in our solar system that they'd already > > destroyed. > > > Karen A. Wyle > > > On Friday, November 5, 2021, 09:04:07 AM EDT, brazee < > > > howard at brazee.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 5, 2021, at 4:22 AM, Raymond Collins > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Of course in the ending of "Stranger in a Strange Land" the Martians > > sort > > > > of comes around to idea that wiping out humanity might a good idea > but, > > > > they'll eventually get around to it in a few millennia. Which > indicates > > > > Heinlein was aware we are a dangerous species. > > > > > > I didn?t see anything there that the Martians considered us dangerous. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From sdean at sdean.net Sat Nov 6 16:28:42 2021 From: sdean at sdean.net (Stewart Dean) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2021 16:28:42 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Star System With Right-Angled Planets Surprises Astronomers - The New York Times Message-ID: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/06/science/perpendicular-planets-star-system.html Even science fiction never dreamed up this one that I ever know -- -- "Nature conceals her secrets because she is sublime, not because she is a trickster" = Einstein //Stewart Dean sdean @ sdean.net, 845 - 336 - 4815, Kingston, NY From fishman at panix.com Sat Nov 6 17:44:35 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2021 17:44:35 +0000 Subject: [LMB] A Tixie, a Tixie, a Tixie!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Birthday Tixie glides in, late and disheveled as usual. Gathering oneself together, today is the fifty-third birthday of Tony Zbaraschuk. Tony, for you we have a trip to Hassadar on Barrayar. You will be led on a personal guided tour of the Government workings by Tsipis, the Vorkosigan's man-of-business. The Government works are extensive as they provide for the entire Vorkosigan holdings. Then you will be brought to the local residence where you will be feted as becomes a birthday boy at a feast prepared by Ma Kosti, who was specially imported for the occasion. You will be hosted by Miles and Ekaterin and The Emperor Gregor and Empress Laisa might drop in for coffee after the party. Then you will be conducted back to Earth on a special ship. Enjoy!!! From huntkc at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 21:04:17 2021 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 17:04:17 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring chapter 6: Fiametta and Thur together Message-ID: Situation so far: Innkeeper Catti has been stabbed by one of Ferrante's bravos when he tries to sell Master Beneforte's body to them. Thur, properly pious, wanted to buy Beneforte's body himself to make sure it got buried properly. That didn't work out... We see Fiametta currently thinks Thur's companions are yokels and he's a huge stupid Swiss boy with bowl-cut hair. Upper class city girl, is she? Still, she does lots and lots of chores at the inn. Night comes. She thinks about how she wants to grab her ring from Thur and rap it a bit to shake her spell around a bit. She also thinks about abandoning everything and fleeing to the north. She sleeps, then awakes and sees her papa: he's made smoke form into his shape. Good detail work, too. But he can't make any sounds like that, so the only message he gets across at first is "idiot child". * guess we can see some of why her papa's death felt like freedom as much as it did grief. * but now she's trapped again: she must save his ghost from becoming enslaved to Ferrante. Somehow. Smoke dissipates, and a word is created: Monreale! So Fiametta has a quest: get to Monreale's monastery. An impossible quest involving getting past besieging soldiers. Thur is willing to try, so she decides to go. I think she's angrier than she needs to be at Catti's wife regarding paying for a priest to come to bury her papa, but well, shemight have good reason to be generally unhappy at this point. The innkeeper's wife is better at catching horses than either Fiametta or Thur - neither has much riding experience, it turns out. We also learn that Thur appears to have magic abilities: at least enough to find things, and to sense metal. We soon see she's none too sure of herself, expecting Thur to hate her if he gets to know her better. Completely unaware of cities he may be, but he's the one to figure out they should smell for campfires to know when they were approaching the Losimon soldiers. And they arrive at the point where sneaking or fighting must happen. From domelouann at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 01:32:57 2021 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 20:32:57 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety Message-ID: I went to an in person Friends of the Library meeting today for the first time. Ten people or less, all very friendly and good natured. But somehow, it was nerve wracking. I had a mask with me, and since a couple of the older people wore theirs, I used it as a social shield. The funny thing is that I attended two days of a con in September and it was much more easy than that one hour meeting. Maybe because I knew the people at the con better, or maybe because so much of it was unstructured vs the 'sit in one place and be an adult' meeting. I'm not sure I've ever felt that socially incompetent. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 02:45:01 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 21:45:01 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Around here, almost nobody masks up unless their workplace specifically requires it. On Sat, Nov 6, 2021 at 8:33 PM Louann Miller wrote: > I went to an in person Friends of the Library meeting today for the first > time. Ten people or less, all very friendly and good natured. But somehow, > it was nerve wracking. I had a mask with me, and since a couple of the > older people wore theirs, I used it as a social shield. The funny thing is > that I attended two days of a con in September and it was much more easy > than that one hour meeting. Maybe because I knew the people at the con > better, or maybe because so much of it was unstructured vs the 'sit in one > place and be an adult' meeting. I'm not sure I've ever felt that socially > incompetent. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From saffronrose at me.com Sun Nov 7 03:21:32 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 20:21:32 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2A3729F9-C9FA-41CC-81E7-9FA7C2948390@me.com> On Nov 6, 2021, at 7:45 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > ?Around here, almost nobody masks up unless their workplace specifically > requires it. In Santa Clara County CA, most of people I see mask up, except for delivery drivers, who come in contact with many more people than those not working retail. Don?t quite understand?when outdoors wandering about, I have a strap over one ear just in case I need to bring it over my face for oncoming foot traffic. > On Sat, Nov 6, 2021 at 8:33 PM Louann Miller wrote: >> I went to an in person Friends of the Library meeting today for the first >> time. Ten people or less, all very friendly and good natured. But somehow, >> it was nerve wracking. I had a mask with me, and since a couple of the >> older people wore theirs, I used it as a social shield. I think a lot of us are having problems being with others in non-work non-family non-grocery-shopping situations now. >> The funny thing is >> that I attended two days of a con in September and it was much more easy >> than that one hour meeting. Maybe because I knew the people at the con >> better, or maybe because so much of it was unstructured vs the 'sit in one >> place and be an adult' meeting. I'm not sure I've ever felt that socially >> incompetent. There are some people around whom I have always felt socially incompetent. What is weird is that 5-10 years ago, I started feeling like an introvert. I really don?t understand that. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Sun Nov 7 06:52:25 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 23:52:25 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Star System With Right-Angled Planets Surprises Astronomers - The New York Times In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 6, 2021, at 9:29 AM, Stewart Dean wrote: > > ?https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/06/science/perpendicular-planets-star-system.html > > Even science fiction never dreamed up this one that I ever know That is neat! No paywall nor jerky scrolling (I had to give up on one site that had the same story word for word (can you say press release?) here: http://chemoautotrophic.com/2021/11/06/star-system-with-right-angled-planets-surprises-astronomers/ A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Nov 7 14:20:45 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 14:20:45 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Louann Miller I went to an in person Friends of the Library meeting today for the first time. Ten people or less, all very friendly and good natured. But somehow, it was nerve wracking. I had a mask with me, and since a couple of the older people wore theirs, I used it as a social shield. The funny thing is that I attended two days of a con in September and it was much more easy than that one hour meeting. Maybe because I knew the people at the con better, or maybe because so much of it was unstructured vs the 'sit in one place and be an adult' meeting. I'm not sure I've ever felt that socially incompetent. Gwynne: Everyone around here masks up, but we don't have to wear them for exercise class any more - for which I am SO grateful. From fishman at panix.com Sun Nov 7 15:34:25 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2021 15:34:25 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: <2A3729F9-C9FA-41CC-81E7-9FA7C2948390@me.com> References: <2A3729F9-C9FA-41CC-81E7-9FA7C2948390@me.com> Message-ID: My apartment building in Brooklyn requires everyone in common areas to be wearing a mask, so I put one on every time I leave my apartment; usually, I remember just before I get to the elevators and have to go back to the apartment. I don't get outside much, but it seems about half and half in the street and stores. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold" To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Cc: "A. Marina Fournier" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 11/6/2021 11:21:32 PM Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety >On Nov 6, 2021, at 7:45 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: >> >> ?Around here, almost nobody masks up unless their workplace specifically >> requires it. > >In Santa Clara County CA, most of people I see mask up, except for delivery drivers, who come in contact with many more people than those not working retail. Don?t quite understand?when outdoors wandering about, I have a strap over one ear just in case I need to bring it over my face for oncoming foot traffic. > >> On Sat, Nov 6, 2021 at 8:33 PM Louann Miller wrote: >>> I went to an in person Friends of the Library meeting today for the first >>> time. Ten people or less, all very friendly and good natured. But somehow, >>> it was nerve wracking. I had a mask with me, and since a couple of the >>> older people wore theirs, I used it as a social shield. > >I think a lot of us are having problems being with others in non-work non-family non-grocery-shopping situations now. > >>> The funny thing is >>> that I attended two days of a con in September and it was much more easy >>> than that one hour meeting. Maybe because I knew the people at the con >>> better, or maybe because so much of it was unstructured vs the 'sit in one >>> place and be an adult' meeting. I'm not sure I've ever felt that socially >>> incompetent. > >There are some people around whom I have always felt socially incompetent. What is weird is that 5-10 years ago, I started feeling like an introvert. I really don?t understand that. > >A. Marina Fournier >saffronrose at me.com >Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e >Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA >Sent from iFionnghuala > From wawenri at msn.com Sun Nov 7 15:36:21 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 15:36:21 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- Gwynne Powell From: Louann Miller I went to an in person Friends of the Library meeting today for the first time. Ten people or less, all very friendly and good natured. But somehow, it was nerve wracking. I had a mask with me, and since a couple of the older people wore theirs, I used it as a social shield. The funny thing is that I attended two days of a con in September and it was much more easy than that one hour meeting. Maybe because I knew the people at the con better, or maybe because so much of it was unstructured vs the 'sit in one place and be an adult' meeting. I'm not sure I've ever felt that socially incompetent. Gwynne: Everyone around here masks up, but we don't have to wear them for exercise class any more - for which I am SO grateful. ======================================================= Since I have been criticized for citing examples in other states, this is strictly about me and my family. In New Mexico, we have a mandate to mask up in all indoor public spaces. In restaurants, customers are allowed to unmask while actually eating and drinking. Last week, Gayle and I went for an overnight trip. The only problems we had was that there were a shortage of restaurants open in Taos and we couldn't get a room at the motel we wanted. (No biggie since we stayed across the street.) Yesterday we had wanted to go to some craft fairs but decided against it because of the mandate. Instead we went to a restaurant. It took us about 2.5 hours. Restaurants are hard pressed to find and keep workers. I wonder if one of the reasons is that the workers need to stay masked their whole shift except for breaks. William A Wenrich Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 15:37:38 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 10:37:38 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring chapter 6: Fiametta and Thur together In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 6, 2021 at 5:04 PM Karen Hunt wrote: > > She sleeps, then awakes and sees her papa: he's made smoke form into his > shape. Good detail work, too. But he can't make any sounds like that, so > the only message he gets across at first is "idiot child". > * guess we can see some of why her papa's death felt like freedom as much > as it did grief. > Yeah, on the "Rate the Dads" thread, he was a solid "feh". Did she find out, yet, that she was doing apprentice work without being registered as an apprentice? And the ring should have been her journeyman-piece, and instead it only earns her various scoldings. > * but now she's trapped again: she must save his ghost from becoming > enslaved to Ferrante. Somehow. Smoke dissipates, and a word is created: > Monreale! > > did she see the putti-child in salt? I don't remember any more. > > > We soon see she's none too sure of herself, expecting Thur to hate her if > he gets to know her better. > > Score negative five for her daddy's nurturing skills :( sylvia From howard at brazee.net Sun Nov 7 15:43:17 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 08:43:17 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring chapter 6: Fiametta and Thur together In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <115D3A57-FAC0-45A6-9696-11425908CCCB@brazee.net> > On Nov 7, 2021, at 8:37 AM, Sylvia McIvers wrote: > > Yeah, on the "Rate the Dads" thread, he was a solid "feh". > Did she find out, yet, that she was doing apprentice work without being > registered as an apprentice? And the ring should have been her > journeyman-piece, and instead it only earns her various scoldings. I wonder how much his character changed when he lost his wife, or whether he was always obsessed with his work. I suspect Thur will be a better father, partially because he isn?t so obsessed. From domelouann at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 15:46:58 2021 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 09:46:58 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 8:20 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Louann Miller > > I went to an in person Friends of the Library meeting today for the first > time. Ten people or less, all very friendly and good natured. But somehow, > it was nerve wracking. I had a mask with me, and since a couple of the > older people wore theirs, I used it as a social shield. > > Gwynne: Everyone around here masks up, but we don't have to wear them > for exercise class any more - for which I am SO grateful. > Note that the key words are "social shield." While I carry a mask with me when I go out, with my vaccinations and habit of staying home I don't worry much about either getting the virus or passing it to others. My point was, I was feeling so shy and nervous in what should have been a really low stakes social setting that covering much of my face made me feel less nervous. This hasn't been a problem for me in, for example, wandering through stores or eating in (uncrowded) restaurants in person. I think the extensive staying at home, which seemed really easy for me at the time, may be trying to nudge me towards the line between introverted and agoraphobic. From huntkc at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 15:52:25 2021 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 10:52:25 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring chapter 6: Fiametta and Thur together In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 10:37 AM Sylvia McIvers wrote: > On Sat, Nov 6, 2021 at 5:04 PM Karen Hunt wrote: > > > > > She sleeps, then awakes and sees her papa: he's made smoke form into his > > shape. Good detail work, too. But he can't make any sounds like that, so > > the only message he gets across at first is "idiot child". > > * guess we can see some of why her papa's death felt like freedom as much > > as it did grief. > > > > Yeah, on the "Rate the Dads" thread, he was a solid "feh". > Did she find out, yet, that she was doing apprentice work without being > registered as an apprentice? And the ring should have been her > journeyman-piece, and instead it only earns her various scoldings. > Not yet. That won't be for a couple chapters, when she's working with Monreale in the fight against Ferrante > > > > * but now she's trapped again: she must save his ghost from becoming > > enslaved to Ferrante. Somehow. Smoke dissipates, and a word is created: > > Monreale! > > > > did she see the putti-child in salt? > I don't remember any more. > She did see the child in salt, yes. From howard at brazee.net Sun Nov 7 15:56:40 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 08:56:40 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35D148EA-EF9F-44F9-B0A3-DAFDB0483AF6@brazee.net> Two counties in Colorado require masks in stores, one where I live, and one where my granddaughter?s at school. Most everybody wears masks in the grocery stores there. Fewer people wear masks in a grocery store not far away. Hardly anybody wears masks in stores in other counties. Some fast food restaurants aren?t open yet for indoor seating (KFC). It?s kind of funny how quickly diners take off their masks in restaurants. For me, the worst part of masks is when I am wearing glasses that fog, but except for reading, that is only sunglasses, so I can pull my mask down. My wife though can?t walk much with her mask on. She says it?s physical, not psychological, and I say it doesn?t matter what it is, it?s real. She?s not a good walker anyway, so she really needs to walk more. (I have to walk the 10,000 steps for my heart). From jpolowin at hotmail.com Sun Nov 7 17:26:21 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 17:26:21 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Star System With Right-Angled Planets Surprises Astronomers - The New York Times In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "A. Marina Fournier" wrote: > No paywall nor jerky scrolling (I had to give up on one site that had > the same story word for word (can you say press release?) here: > http://chemoautotrophic.com/2021/11/06/star-system-with-right-angled-planets-surprises-astronomers/ I found one site that ran the same story, word for word, except that it had been run through some system intended to defeat detection of plagiarism by changing some words to their synonyms. It was like reading a document written by someone with poor spelling, and then run through a not-very-good automated corrector. For example, there were repeated instances of the phrase "photo voltaic system", which I eventually worked out were supposed to mean "solar system". Joel From jpolowin at hotmail.com Sun Nov 7 17:53:59 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 17:53:59 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Since I have been criticized for citing examples in other states, this > is strictly about me and my family. You have been criticized for complaining about being restricted by things which have not in fact affected you at all. Many of which have not even been true whatsoever for *anyone*. For example, you complained twice about not being allowed to do gardening, when it turned out that the supposed rule was from a different state, and wasn't valid at all. You have *not* been criticized merely for citing examples from other states, but because your "examples" didn't support your arguments. > Restaurants are hard pressed to find and keep workers. I wonder if one > of the reasons is that the workers need to stay masked their whole shift > except for breaks. It may be a factor. Restaurant work has rarely been *good* work, especially in places that allow those employers to pay a pittance on the assumption that workers will make up the difference in tips. Now there's the added discomfort of wearing masks, and the health risks of being in close contact with people who are not only maskless but spraying droplets as they eat. And restaurateurs report that the incidence of customers being jerks is *much* higher than it had been before the pandemic. Joel From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sun Nov 7 18:07:08 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 13:07:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [LMB] Star System With Right-Angled Planets Surprises Astronomers - The New York Times In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Nov 2021, Stewart Dean wrote: > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/06/science/perpendicular-planets-star-system.html > > Even science fiction never dreamed up this one that I ever know I like the last sentence of the article: "Planets can evolve in really, really different ways." It reminds us not to make assumptions. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sun Nov 7 18:33:39 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 13:33:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Nov 2021, Louann Miller wrote: > I went to an in person Friends of the Library meeting today for the first > time. Ten people or less, all very friendly and good natured. But somehow, > it was nerve wracking. I had a mask with me, and since a couple of the > older people wore theirs, I used it as a social shield. The funny thing is > that I attended two days of a con in September and it was much more easy > than that one hour meeting. Maybe because I knew the people at the con > better, or maybe because so much of it was unstructured vs the 'sit in one > place and be an adult' meeting. I'm not sure I've ever felt that socially > incompetent. I can sympathize. Any indoor event/place adds an extra level of stress for me these days, partially because of the discomfort of wearing a mask (my glasses fog up etc.) and partially because of the ever-present worry of infection, regardless of being double-vaxxed. I was at a meeting outdoors last week and that was fine -- no anxiety. Perhaps it was that anxiety combining with the normal slight anxiety from meeting new people and being in a formal business meeting that affected you. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sun Nov 7 18:49:04 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 13:49:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Nov 2021, Joel Polowin wrote: > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: >> On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, Joel Polowin wrote: >>> I have some trouble getting into the head space of someone >>> who's under those conditions to guess how much they'd be planning >>> ahead for birth control. >> True. I was actually thinking more of sexual assault. > > The idea that those young women should have contraceptive protection > primarily in case of the possibility of sexual assault is something > I have a lot of trouble with. I *know* that it's coming out of > the tension between "women shouldn't have to change themselves > or their behaviour because of the possibility that men will behave > inappropriately" and "nevertheless, the risk is real, and such changes > will mitigate the consequenses". Still. There are so many reported cases of sexual assault on university campuses (including the infamous case at Western University on London ON this fall) to make me feel automatically distrustful of young men in that age category (exactly the one in Tunnel in the Sky) in a situation w/o social controls. As well, Rod was attacked, robbed, and left for dead in that book, presumably by a fellow student. Someone who could do that could also be a rapist. I actually think that Heinlein wrote Tunnel as an answer to _Lord of the Flies_ to show that people can work together and help each other in a situation where they are castaway. And I also think that Heinlein's scenario is more likely - people do cooperate and help each other. But as a woman I'd want to take precautions against pregnancy in that situation. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From kawyle at att.net Sun Nov 7 18:57:55 2021 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 18:57:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1871844342.1255022.1636311475044@mail.yahoo.com> I think many of us -- and worse, many children -- have lost some of our baseline social skills after going so long without encountering new people or even less-than-close acquaintances. Karen A. Wyle On Sunday, November 7, 2021, 01:33:48 PM EST, wrote: Any indoor event/place adds an extra level of stress for me these days [snip]. Perhaps it was that anxiety combining with the normal slight anxiety from meeting new people and being in a formal business meeting that affected you. From wetair at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 22:22:31 2021 From: wetair at gmail.com (Ruchira Mathur) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 17:22:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And also because other jobs opened up? Other places also had employee shortage. Maybe they found other jobs. Especially during the period restaurants were shutdown and are now not inclined to go back. I've heard there is a great resignation going on. It's possibly impacting restaurants more, since restaurants work isn't that great anyway. On Sun, Nov 7, 2021, 12:54 PM Joel Polowin wrote: > WILLIAM A WENRICH > > > Restaurants are hard pressed to find and keep workers. I wonder if one > > of the reasons is that the workers need to stay masked their whole shift > > except for breaks. > > It may be a factor. Restaurant work has rarely been *good* work, > especially in places that allow those employers to pay a pittance > on the assumption that workers will make up the difference in tips. > Now there's the added discomfort of wearing masks, and the health > risks of being in close contact with people who are not only maskless > but spraying droplets as they eat. And restaurateurs report that the > incidence of customers being jerks is *much* higher than it had been > before the pandemic. > > Joel > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wetair at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From saffronrose at me.com Sun Nov 7 22:31:53 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 14:31:53 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 7, 2021, at 7:47 AM, Louann Miller wrote: > I think the > extensive staying at home, which seemed really easy for me at the time, may > be trying to nudge me towards the line between introverted and agoraphobic. I?m guessing that?s a line you?d prefer not to cross. Can?t blame you: agoraphobia is paralyzing! I?m not quite ready for cinemas yet. I have had a few days in my life where I couldn?t even force myself to open the front door. That was scary, and not linked to any event or person. Right now being in a crowd at an outdoor event makes me uncomfortable, a bit less than pre-pandemic tight crowds did. That was definitely safety-triggered claustrophobia. I think what I experience now in crowds is definitely related to safety boundaries of the germy variety rather than ?I?m going to be trampled? one. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Sun Nov 7 22:52:01 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 14:52:01 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: <35D148EA-EF9F-44F9-B0A3-DAFDB0483AF6@brazee.net> References: <35D148EA-EF9F-44F9-B0A3-DAFDB0483AF6@brazee.net> Message-ID: <5985DB4E-C2A3-41AF-BD09-F155A201F3E6@me.com> On Nov 7, 2021, at 7:57 AM, brazee wrote: > > Some fast food restaurants aren?t open yet for indoor seating (KFC). In?n-Out restaurants in SF and Contra Costa (northern end of the East Bay, above Berkeley & Oakland) Counties hadn?t been checking vaccination status for indoor dining. I *think* the drive-thrus there are still open, but no dining-in at any In?n-Out in either of those counties. > It?s kind of funny how quickly diners take off their masks in restaurants. Indoors or out, I?m paranoid or leery or whatever, so that unless I?m actively eating or drinking, the mask is up. Server comes, no matter what, the mask goes across my face. Not everyone shows servers that courtesy. > For me, the worst part of masks is when I am wearing glasses that fog If there?s no nose wire, or it?s not crimped just so, my glasses fog. > My wife though can?t walk much with her mask on. She says it?s physical, not psychological, and I say it doesn?t matter what it is, it?s real. It IS real. Whether it?s breathing or visual obstruction or not, it?s real for the person involved. There are some masks that creep up my lower eyelid which would make me unwilling to walk or drive with. There are better designs for disposable masks these days, and I need to find a couple of them to try out. Apple has one they?re giving out to staff. FTR/FYI, unvaccinated staff returning to Apple offices in the new year will be tested daily, and vaccinated staff weekly. This is absolutely the case at The Apple Spaceship campus. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From howard at brazee.net Sun Nov 7 23:33:34 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 16:33:34 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4716799D-F428-41C7-808C-0E25F9AF3E1E@brazee.net> > On Nov 7, 2021, at 3:22 PM, Ruchira Mathur wrote: > > I've heard there is a great resignation going on. It's possibly impacting > restaurants more, since restaurants work isn't that great anyway. I?ve read that the Bubonic plague created a lot of power in the middle class as labor got scarce and dear. This doesn?t change the labor supply that much, but it increases the amount of labor that isn?t ready to accept the current status quo. From phoenix at mindstalk.net Sun Nov 7 23:49:44 2021 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 18:49:44 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: <2A3729F9-C9FA-41CC-81E7-9FA7C2948390@me.com> References: <2A3729F9-C9FA-41CC-81E7-9FA7C2948390@me.com> Message-ID: > In Santa Clara County CA, most of people I see mask up, except for I was in San Francisco briefly in late June. Masking on transit was perfect in my limited observation. Target, the staff were but half the people weren't. BART was good with Exceptions. In north Oakland, people were pretty good at masking in stores. Montreal is basically like San Francisco/Oakland, except the bus drivers seem to skip, and shop people skip or put the mask on when you enter. Quebec City even more so with the shop people. People on the intercity train not too bad, though I saw a teen girl go maskless for a good part of my ride back to Montreal, even though her (presumed) father and brother were masked. I'm told that inside masking in Madrid, and a couple locations in Mexico (resort, Mexico City) is good. -xx- Damien X-) From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Nov 8 04:12:21 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 04:12:21 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Karen A. Wyle" I think many of us -- and worse, many children -- have lost some of our baseline social skills after going so long without encountering new people or even less-than-close acquaintances. Karen A. Wyle Gwynne: Simply getting ready and out of the house to get to an appointment on time is a triumph at the moment. And there is a real reluctance to leave, I can feel the strong urge to stay home. To stay safe. I don't have chronic pain, but I get the odd intense stab, and I usually make a noise and maybe the odd 'Bugger!' (It really does make you feel better.) But you can't really do that when you're out in public. And you have to REMEMBER that. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 05:47:25 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 23:47:25 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've seen some anti-social behavior out in public and while driving. I had one person race towards me on my lane because he/she didn't want to wait for the traffic to move before making a left turn. I had to hit brakes to avoid a head on collision. I may have gotten the finger but it was too dark to see. On Sun, Nov 7, 2021, 10:12 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: "Karen A. Wyle" > > I think many of us -- and worse, many children -- have lost some of our > baseline social skills after going so long without encountering new people > or even less-than-close acquaintances. > Karen A. Wyle > > Gwynne: Simply getting ready and out of the house to get to an appointment > on time is a triumph at the moment. And there is a real reluctance to > leave, I > can feel the strong urge to stay home. To stay safe. > I don't have chronic pain, but I get the odd intense stab, and I usually > make a > noise and maybe the odd 'Bugger!' (It really does make you feel better.) > But you > can't really do that when you're out in public. And you have to REMEMBER > that. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Nov 8 11:17:14 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 11:17:14 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 17:53:59 +0000, Joel Polowin wrote: >And restaurateurs report that the >incidence of customers being jerks is *much* higher than it had been >before the pandemic. I suspect the jerks have a lot of backed-up jerkery that they've not been able to use. :) Jerks will jerk. Should I ever own a restaurant, I think I'd get staff to wear a bodycam. And anyone complaining would have the footage run, and if it turned out the customer was the jerk, the customer would be banned. -- Carpe Diem. Fish for 10 cents. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Nov 8 11:21:18 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 11:21:18 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: <4C133F9E-E76D-48A1-8A99-3D5DF8169055@me.com> References: <4C133F9E-E76D-48A1-8A99-3D5DF8169055@me.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 15:54:06 -0700, "A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold" wrote: >On Nov 3, 2021, at 11:08 AM, markus baur wrote: >> >> ?and naples has been the capital of the kingdom of naples for a long time - so it would fulfill that criteria as well >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Naples >> >> besides - its sits right between an active volcano and an active supervolcano > >Gah. And here I have no interest in living in the PNW! Just nervous, not the people there! > >Why is it that Iceland appeals more, with similar tectonic issues? It?s not just skyr, geothermal energy, the lovely sound of its language. Sheeps! That must be it?lambies & sheepses. The worst thing about Iceland is the tree shortage - in every sense. There's a joke: "What do you do if you're lost in an Icelandic forest? Stand up." When I was there in 1997, there was a celebration because a tree had reached the height of (IIRC) ten metres. They are reforesting with some enthusiasm, but there's a long way to go. -- Carpe Diem. Fish for 10 cents. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Nov 8 11:23:49 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 11:23:49 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 13:56:26 -0400 (EDT), alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: >Yes, before many of us were even born. It actually reminds me of the >stories my mother told me of the discrimination she faced in the >workforce, and the assumptions that women would leave the workforce when >they got pregnant. In the UK, female schoolteachers are by habit addressed as "Miss"; it's because, right up to WWII, they were required to resign once married. -- Carpe Diem. Fish for 10 cents. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Nov 8 11:40:48 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 11:40:48 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 05:41:01 -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: >I quite agree. Even if we find a planet has chlorophyll useing flora, >there's no evidence that it would be safe. Even on Earth we have plants >and bushes that would kill us. Case in point the most deadliest tree is the >Manchineel tree. even just touching it can kill you. The truth is >colonizing a extraterrestrial planet with lifeforms might be even more >expensive then just terraforming a dead planet. There's a plant in many gardens that will kill you if you just sit under it for 10 minutes. -- "First they came for the verbs, and I said nothing because verbing weirds language. Then they arrival for the nouns, and I speech nothing because I no verbs." (Peter Ellis on afp) From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Nov 8 11:48:35 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 11:48:35 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Star System With Right-Angled Planets Surprises Astronomers - The New York Times In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 16:28:42 +0000, Stewart Dean wrote: >https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/06/science/perpendicular-planets-star-system.html > >Even science fiction never dreamed up this one that I ever know > How about this? https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/28/science/triple-sun-planet.html Trisolaris? -- "Computer models cannot be fooled by an arrow diagram backed by a rhetorically compelling word salad." - George von Dassow and Eli Meir From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Nov 8 11:51:18 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 11:51:18 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: <35EA9095-DFFE-476A-9599-37CACAEE98F1@me.com> Message-ID: <2o3iog5bh70suuccdsl15sv63r9jnvecft@4ax.com> On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 13:18:15 -0500, Eric Oppen wrote: >I lost my grandfather on Christmas Day back in the 1970s, and my father the >day after Christmas, 1991. My own feelings about the holiday are---mixed, >at best. Lost my mother a week before Christmas, back in 1995. A couple of days before their wedding anniversary, too. Christmas that year was.. bleak. -- "Computer models cannot be fooled by an arrow diagram backed by a rhetorically compelling word salad." - George von Dassow and Eli Meir From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Nov 8 11:53:11 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 11:53:11 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9r3iog5nmvmit0ujchdhjjh513kbugcpe0@4ax.com> On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 13:19:05 -0500, Eric Oppen wrote: >I found the overall tone of that book pretty offensive. I'm not saying >that you don't find people like she describes at SF/fantasy cons, but they >are by no means the whole story. > >Kind of like how I've complained about how, when the news media *spit* >cover a big SF con, they push past lots of nice people who could explain >just what's going on, to zero in on the fattiest, smelliest, sweatiest, >neckbearded basement-dwelling geek they can find, wearing the most >obviously-fake Spock ears, and portray this guy as absolutely typical of >the con as a whole, instead of someone most of us put up with. Beer festivals and fat blokes with beards and sandals get the same media treatment. The crossover with unix symposia is significant. :) -- "Computer models cannot be fooled by an arrow diagram backed by a rhetorically compelling word salad." - George von Dassow and Eli Meir From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Nov 8 11:59:17 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 11:59:17 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: References: <5u55ogp55foilb87smjokbjunmmfpep4uf@4ax.com> Message-ID: <844iogtd03hfs5v8g1tulilcfo4it3mq82@4ax.com> On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 12:00:01 -0400, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > >> On Nov 3, 2021, at 10:10 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: >> >> I was short-sighted from birth, and as kids do, I assumed everyone saw >> the same sort of vague foggy stuff I did. My first pair of specs (aged >> 6) were a revelation. And a heartbreak; glasses were not cool, back >> then, and I was bullied and called a swot. But at least I could see who >> was calling me names. > >Had some difficulty finding this. Please everyone, define technical terms. >> -- >Urban Dictionary: Swot > https://www.urbandictionary.com???define.php?term=Swot >1) To Swot; Revision undertaken preceding an examination. 2) (Offensive Slang) Swot; A person who values his education at least three times more than his social life and his teacher at least three times more than his friends, hypothetically. 3) (Business Terminology) S.W.O.T.; An analysis of a business's position comparing with other similar businesses in order to ... I'm not sure what a leftpondian version would be: nerd, perhaps? It's meaning 2 I was alluding to: in my youth, anyone wearing specs was assumed to be both academic and a bit weedy (I confess to both) and therefore a target for the ire of the hard-of-thinking. -- "Computer models cannot be fooled by an arrow diagram backed by a rhetorically compelling word salad." - George von Dassow and Eli Meir From proto at panix.com Mon Nov 8 12:44:32 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 07:44:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Star System With Right-Angled Planets Surprises Astronomers - The New York Times In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87D4EB32-0325-48B0-B2AD-09DE09B7A328@panix.com> > On Nov 8, 2021, at 6:48 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 16:28:42 +0000, Stewart Dean > wrote: > >> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/06/science/perpendicular-planets-star-system.html >> >> Even science fiction never dreamed up this one that I ever know >> > > How about this? > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/28/science/triple-sun-planet.html > > Trisolaris? Iaasic Asimov?s _Nightfall_ planet Kalgash with possible models. ?The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine. (J. B. S. Haldane? ? The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret. ? Terry Pratchett, The Truth From wawenri at msn.com Mon Nov 8 14:06:04 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 14:06:04 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you disagree with someone, even if it is a matter of taste or an opinion, they are now evil layers. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Raymond Collins Sent: Sunday, November 7, 2021 10:47:25 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety I've seen some anti-social behavior out in public and while driving. I had one person race towards me on my lane because he/she didn't want to wait for the traffic to move before making a left turn. I had to hit brakes to avoid a head on collision. I may have gotten the finger but it was too dark to see. On Sun, Nov 7, 2021, 10:12 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: "Karen A. Wyle" > > I think many of us -- and worse, many children -- have lost some of our > baseline social skills after going so long without encountering new people > or even less-than-close acquaintances. > Karen A. Wyle > > Gwynne: Simply getting ready and out of the house to get to an appointment > on time is a triumph at the moment. And there is a real reluctance to > leave, I > can feel the strong urge to stay home. To stay safe. > I don't have chronic pain, but I get the odd intense stab, and I usually > make a > noise and maybe the odd 'Bugger!' (It really does make you feel better.) > But you > can't really do that when you're out in public. And you have to REMEMBER > that. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C648628d0fcc04f00c8a608d9a27b4e1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637719472742159244%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=NGeF3u5hVqPcceNRMe1Ec2jCrBX2761Zg1An1NiNntg%3D&reserved=0 > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C648628d0fcc04f00c8a608d9a27b4e1f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637719472742159244%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=NGeF3u5hVqPcceNRMe1Ec2jCrBX2761Zg1An1NiNntg%3D&reserved=0 From wawenri at msn.com Mon Nov 8 14:15:54 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 14:15:54 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Star System With Right-Angled Planets Surprises Astronomers - The New York Times In-Reply-To: <87D4EB32-0325-48B0-B2AD-09DE09B7A328@panix.com> References: <87D4EB32-0325-48B0-B2AD-09DE09B7A328@panix.com> Message-ID: Makes other three body problems look simple. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of WalterStuartBushell Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 5:44:32 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. ; Marc Wilson Subject: Re: [LMB] Star System With Right-Angled Planets Surprises Astronomers - The New York Times > On Nov 8, 2021, at 6:48 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 16:28:42 +0000, Stewart Dean > wrote: > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2021%2F11%2F06%2Fscience%2Fperpendicular-planets-star-system.html&data=04%7C01%7C%7C8d1955025d0f49fc31f708d9a2b58c42%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637719722891474510%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=vm0%2FJfnzcmV13I8C9UGpdDdLZQ0IjBzBAbJ%2FLgy%2B4%2FY%3D&reserved=0 >> >> Even science fiction never dreamed up this one that I ever know >> > > How about this? > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2021%2F09%2F28%2Fscience%2Ftriple-sun-planet.html&data=04%7C01%7C%7C8d1955025d0f49fc31f708d9a2b58c42%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637719722891474510%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=fawF7cRJDuwwaAStEiVizblFgXci7axwXXB0gIbXqvc%3D&reserved=0 > > Trisolaris? Iaasic Asimov?s _Nightfall_ planet Kalgash with possible models. ?The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine. (J. B. S. Haldane? ? The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret. ? Terry Pratchett, The Truth -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C8d1955025d0f49fc31f708d9a2b58c42%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637719722891474510%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=G89sdLiIBPs9eUmr3OPLLDanmMLBjGAMl47bxBAOiVE%3D&reserved=0 From kcollett at hamilton.edu Mon Nov 8 14:21:36 2021 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Kathy Collett) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 09:21:36 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 8, 2021, at 6:40 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > There's a plant in many gardens that will kill you if you just sit under > it for 10 minutes. Um, any plant that grows flat to the ground? If that?s not what you mean, do tell! Katherine From domelouann at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 14:38:09 2021 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 08:38:09 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: William says, people are being mean to William In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 8:06 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > If you disagree with someone, even if it is a matter of taste or an > opinion, they are now evil layers. > > William A Wenrich > Spelling flames aside, I have to ask you a blunt question. Have you ever tried NOT indulging your martyr complex? Because this isn't the first time. It may not be the fifteenth, I don't keep organized track. But it's not appealing. We all know the cycle by now. You drop a vague hint about how you feel offended against, someone asks for details, you offer a less-vague one without actual details. If and when someone with a lot of free time gets you to commit to a specific incident, it normally turns out that you were offering something as fact (e.g. -- gardening outlawed!) that wasn't fact. There have been so many other times when you DO contribute meaningfully to the discussion, and are a fun person to chat with. I like that William very much. I admit I have one or two listees regretfully blocked, and for the sake of that William I have not done the same with the "get off the cross, we need the wood" William. But this recurring cognitive tic is annoying, and at times worrying. From fred.fredex at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 15:30:58 2021 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 10:30:58 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: William says, people are being mean to William In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: LouAnn, I've just looked back at the (short) history of the posting to which you reply, and I don't see anything there that I would have expected to cause you to rant at William. We don't have to AGREE with everyone, or even LIKE them, but why dump all over William over what looks to me like nothing? So, I'll pre-ask for forgiveness if I'm just too stupid to see the problem. Fred On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 9:38 AM Louann Miller wrote: > On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 8:06 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > > If you disagree with someone, even if it is a matter of taste or an > > opinion, they are now evil layers. > > > > William A Wenrich > > > > Spelling flames aside, I have to ask you a blunt question. Have you ever > tried NOT indulging your martyr complex? Because this isn't the first time. > It may not be the fifteenth, I don't keep organized track. But it's not > appealing. > We all know the cycle by now. You drop a vague hint about how you feel > offended against, someone asks for details, you offer a less-vague one > without actual details. If and when someone with a lot of free time gets > you to commit to a specific incident, it normally turns out that you were > offering something as fact (e.g. -- gardening outlawed!) that wasn't fact. > There have been so many other times when you DO contribute meaningfully to > the discussion, and are a fun person to chat with. I like that William very > much. I admit I have one or two listees regretfully blocked, and for the > sake of that William I have not done the same with the "get off the cross, > we need the wood" William. But this recurring cognitive tic is annoying, > and at times worrying. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Mon Nov 8 17:22:30 2021 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 09:22:30 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: what is your 10: migraines In-Reply-To: <844iogtd03hfs5v8g1tulilcfo4it3mq82@4ax.com> References: <5u55ogp55foilb87smjokbjunmmfpep4uf@4ax.com> <844iogtd03hfs5v8g1tulilcfo4it3mq82@4ax.com> Message-ID: <8D817037-B05F-46FE-B673-F918FA9BF0DC@comcast.net> > On Nov 8, 2021, at 3:59 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 12:00:01 -0400, WalterStuartBushell > wrote: > >> >> >>> On Nov 3, 2021, at 10:10 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: >>> >>> I was short-sighted from birth, and as kids do, I assumed everyone saw >>> the same sort of vague foggy stuff I did. My first pair of specs (aged >>> 6) were a revelation. And a heartbreak; glasses were not cool, back >>> then, and I was bullied and called a swot. But at least I could see who >>> was calling me names. >> >> Had some difficulty finding this. Please everyone, define technical terms. >>> -- >> Urban Dictionary: Swot >> https://www.urbandictionary.com ? define.php?term=Swot >> 1) To Swot; Revision undertaken preceding an examination. 2) (Offensive Slang) Swot; A person who values his education at least three times more than his social life and his teacher at least three times more than his friends, hypothetically. 3) (Business Terminology) S.W.O.T.; An analysis of a business's > position comparing with other similar businesses in order to ... > > I'm not sure what a leftpondian version would be: nerd, perhaps? It's > meaning 2 I was alluding to: in my youth, anyone wearing specs was > assumed to be both academic and a bit weedy (I confess to both) and > therefore a target for the ire of the hard-of-thinking. > I think ?teacher?s pet? (which might be regional) fits that description (at least 50 years ago). "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com From lmb at matija.com Mon Nov 8 17:52:58 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 17:52:58 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: William says, people are being mean to William In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2e98e60f-35e1-ed2e-f2d9-61a6c6bd905d@matija.com> On 08/11/2021 15:30, Fred wrote: > We don't have to AGREE with everyone, or even LIKE them, but why dump all > over William over what looks to me like nothing? As Louann mentioned, it is not a matter of the "short history" of a particular message, it is a matter of pattern. The thing about his posts that annoys me the most is not even the periodic "oh, I am such a victim" posts, but his deliberate, blatant misrepresentations. He makes a post, gets called out, then misrepresents what the post said, in order to make it appear like he was being unfairly targeted. And no matter how politely someone points out that he might have been mistaken, he will later characterise it as "I have been attacked for (saying something he didn't say)". From wawenri at msn.com Mon Nov 8 18:06:34 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 18:06:34 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: William says, people are being mean to William In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Truly an example of what I was saying. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Louann Miller Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 7:38:09 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: [LMB] OT: William says, people are being mean to William On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 8:06 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > If you disagree with someone, even if it is a matter of taste or an > opinion, they are now evil layers. > > William A Wenrich > Spelling flames aside, I have to ask you a blunt question. Have you ever tried NOT indulging your martyr complex? Because this isn't the first time. It may not be the fifteenth, I don't keep organized track. But it's not appealing. We all know the cycle by now. You drop a vague hint about how you feel offended against, someone asks for details, you offer a less-vague one without actual details. If and when someone with a lot of free time gets you to commit to a specific incident, it normally turns out that you were offering something as fact (e.g. -- gardening outlawed!) that wasn't fact. There have been so many other times when you DO contribute meaningfully to the discussion, and are a fun person to chat with. I like that William very much. I admit I have one or two listees regretfully blocked, and for the sake of that William I have not done the same with the "get off the cross, we need the wood" William. But this recurring cognitive tic is annoying, and at times worrying. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cf45f410346cd46fd811008d9a2c56c31%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637719791073493486%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=hWe9krDVjDM7KpWmw21ZOVp9eZyD6QgbvfqhL2FtA%2Fg%3D&reserved=0 From c_muir68 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 8 19:17:41 2021 From: c_muir68 at hotmail.com (catherine muir) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 19:17:41 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Knot of Shadows (no spoilers) Message-ID: Do we have a typos page yet? Sent from Mail for Windows From phoenix at mindstalk.net Mon Nov 8 20:25:57 2021 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 15:25:57 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 08, 2021 at 02:06:04PM +0000, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > If you disagree with someone, even if it is a matter of taste or an opinion, they are now evil layers. "evil layers"? What are you even talking about? And how is this relevant to people having trouble going outside, or being endangered by aggressive drivers? > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Raymond Collins > I've seen some anti-social behavior out in public and while driving. I had > one person race towards me on my lane because he/she didn't want to wait > On Sun, Nov 7, 2021, 10:12 PM Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > > Gwynne: Simply getting ready and out of the house to get to an appointment > > on time is a triumph at the moment. And there is a real reluctance to -xx- Damien X-) From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 20:37:23 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 15:37:23 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 6:41 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > Case in point the most deadliest tree is the > Manchineel tree. even just touching it can kill you. > Better than that - falling dew, that has collected on the leaves of the "little apple of death", can strike a victim blind for several weeks. It's *absurdly* poisonous to mammals. And that's just a drop. Imagine what happens if enough falls into one's youth. Matt "I collect toxins and poisons" G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 20:39:59 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 15:39:59 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 11:34 AM Joel Polowin wrote: > I *know* that it's coming out of > the tension between "women shouldn't have to change themselves > or their behaviour because of the possibility that men will behave > inappropriately" and "nevertheless, the risk is real, and such changes > will mitigate the consequenses". Still. > Tension between nonsense and sense? People need to take reasonable steps to protect themselves from hostile actors, and the legal and ethical indefensibility of those actors' actions is entirely irrelevant. Thieves are wholly in the wrong, and nevertheless I need to have and use locks on my car and home, and insurance to cover against theft. It would be a lovely world if those things were unnecessary. Matt "we don't live in that world" G. From saffronrose at me.com Mon Nov 8 20:50:33 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 12:50:33 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 8, 2021, at 3:21 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > ?On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 15:54:06 -0700, "A. Marina Fournier weote: >> >> >> Why is it that Iceland appeals more, with similar tectonic issues? It?s not just skyr, geothermal energy, the lovely sound of its language. Sheeps! That must be it?lambies & sheepses. > > The worst thing about Iceland is the tree shortage - in every sense. > There's a joke: "What do you do if you're lost in an Icelandic forest? > Stand up." > > When I was there in 1997, there was a celebration because a tree had > reached the height of (IIRC) ten metres. > > They are reforesting with some enthusiasm, but there's a long way to go. I understand Lincolnshire is having to restore its forests?Robin Hood would be unable to live it it now. I had no idea of Iceland?s deforestation. Glad they?re working to restore it. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Mon Nov 8 20:56:23 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 12:56:23 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 8, 2021, at 3:17 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > ?On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 17:53:59 +0000, Joel Polowin > wrote: > >> And restaurateurs report that the >> incidence of customers being jerks is *much* higher than it had been >> before the pandemic. > > I suspect the jerks have a lot of backed-up jerkery that they've not > been able to use. :) > > Jerks will jerk. Throw bottles of jerk sauce at them? Pickapeppa bottles are too small to do any good. > Should I ever own a restaurant, I think I'd get staff to wear a bodycam. > And anyone complaining would have the footage run, and if it turned out > the customer was the jerk, the customer would be banned. That?s protecting your staff! Tipping or no tipping? Loophole rock-bottom tipped wage, or everyone gets paid a decent hourly, and any tips are pooled? A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From lbujold at myinfmail.com Mon Nov 8 21:22:07 2021 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 15:22:07 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Knot of Shadows (no spoilers) Message-ID: [LMB] Knot of Shadows (no spoilers) catherine muir c_muir68 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 8 19:17:41 GMT 2021 CM: Do we have a typos page yet? LMB:? It's on my blog. https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/21847628-knot-of-shadows-spoiler-discussion-space Ta, L. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 01:22:35 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 19:22:35 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: AFAIK, Iceland never had much in the way of forests. What little there was when the first settlers arrived was scrubby and not good for much. On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 2:50 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Nov 8, 2021, at 3:21 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > > > ?On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 15:54:06 -0700, "A. Marina Fournier weote: > >> > >> > >> Why is it that Iceland appeals more, with similar tectonic issues? It?s > not just skyr, geothermal energy, the lovely sound of its language. Sheeps! > That must be it?lambies & sheepses. > > > > The worst thing about Iceland is the tree shortage - in every sense. > > There's a joke: "What do you do if you're lost in an Icelandic forest? > > Stand up." > > > > When I was there in 1997, there was a celebration because a tree had > > reached the height of (IIRC) ten metres. > > > > They are reforesting with some enthusiasm, but there's a long way to go. > > I understand Lincolnshire is having to restore its forests?Robin Hood > would be unable to live it it now. > > I had no idea of Iceland?s deforestation. Glad they?re working to restore > it. > > A. Marina Fournier > saffronrose at me.com > Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e > Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA > Sent from iFionnghuala > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From saffronrose at me.com Tue Nov 9 01:29:20 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 17:29:20 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So it wasn?t Vikings responsible for that, for building their ships. ISTR that Iceland wasn?t inhabited until the 10th century, and *not* by Vikings. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala > On Nov 8, 2021, at 5:22 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > ?AFAIK, Iceland never had much in the way of forests. What little there was > when the first settlers arrived was scrubby and not good for much. > >> On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 2:50 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < >> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> On Nov 8, 2021, at 3:21 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: >>> >>> ?On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 15:54:06 -0700, "A. Marina Fournier weote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Why is it that Iceland appeals more, with similar tectonic issues? It?s >> not just skyr, geothermal energy, the lovely sound of its language. Sheeps! >> That must be it?lambies & sheepses. >>> >>> The worst thing about Iceland is the tree shortage - in every sense. >>> There's a joke: "What do you do if you're lost in an Icelandic forest? >>> Stand up." >>> >>> When I was there in 1997, there was a celebration because a tree had >>> reached the height of (IIRC) ten metres. >>> >>> They are reforesting with some enthusiasm, but there's a long way to go. >> >> I understand Lincolnshire is having to restore its forests?Robin Hood >> would be unable to live it it now. >> >> I had no idea of Iceland?s deforestation. Glad they?re working to restore >> it. >> >> A. Marina Fournier >> saffronrose at me.com >> Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e >> Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA >> Sent from iFionnghuala >> >> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to saffronrose at me.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From phoenix at mindstalk.net Tue Nov 9 01:36:10 2021 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 20:36:10 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 08, 2021 at 05:29:20PM -0800, Bujold list wrote: > So it wasn?t Vikings responsible for that, for building their ships. > > ISTR that Iceland wasn?t inhabited until the 10th century, and *not* by Vikings. Wikipedia says there may have been Irish monks in the 700s. Viking settlement started in 870. By 930 the island had been divvied up. Also 25% of the island was forest, but that's partly due to the Medieval Warm Period. Deforestation happened too. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at mindstalk.net Tue Nov 9 01:41:40 2021 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 20:41:40 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths OT: In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 04, 2021 at 10:25:51AM -0400, Sylvia McIvers wrote: > What an astonishing thing, that a banker could be a woman. Not just the > tellers, the actual bankers! Girls can grow up to be bankers! > Whereas before, girls get told not to worry their pretty little heads > about money. Though that's a "mid-century USA" thing, not a "pre-modern civilization" thing. Japanese housewives traditionally manage the household, including finances. Wouldn't expect a samurai to worry his head about filthy lucre, after all. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at mindstalk.net Tue Nov 9 01:47:19 2021 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 20:47:19 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 04, 2021 at 12:04:42AM -0500, Eric Oppen wrote: > Under the primitive conditions the castaways in *Tunnel* were living in, > women would tend to be relegated to roles that they've mostly left behind > in our technologically-advanced society---the more so when you take into I haven't read Tunnel, but it sounds like a summer camp gone wrong. Women wouldn't be "relegated" to primitive roles overnight. Nor would women accepting that they would need to mostly stay home and raise kids necessarily, or even likely, lead to fawning over and obeying the male characters. -xx- Damien X-) From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 9 01:50:34 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 18:50:34 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: <5FDB9845-0584-4496-9A85-7D57B3EE0E3F@brazee.net> > On Nov 8, 2021, at 6:47 PM, Damien Sullivan wrote: > > I haven't read Tunnel, but it sounds like a summer camp gone wrong. > Women wouldn't be "relegated" to primitive roles overnight. Nor would > women accepting that they would need to mostly stay home and raise kids > necessarily, or even likely, lead to fawning over and obeying the male > characters. If it were written 10 years earlier, there probably wouldn?t have been any women. From phoenix at mindstalk.net Tue Nov 9 01:52:51 2021 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 20:52:51 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 07, 2021 at 05:22:31PM -0500, Ruchira Mathur wrote: > And also because other jobs opened up? Other places also had employee > shortage. Maybe they found other jobs. Especially during the period > restaurants were shutdown and are now not inclined to go back. Also the labor shortage affects child care, which then affects every other sector where parents (mostly women) were needing child care to go to their own jobs. -xx- Damien X-) From saffronrose at me.com Tue Nov 9 03:18:29 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 19:18:29 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 8, 2021, at 5:52 PM, Damien Sullivan wrote: > > ?On Sun, Nov 07, 2021 at 05:22:31PM -0500, Ruchira Mathur wrote: >> And also because other jobs opened up? Other places also had employee >> shortage. Maybe they found other jobs. Especially during the period >> restaurants were shutdown and are now not inclined to go back. > > Also the labor shortage affects child care, which then affects every > other sector where parents (mostly women) were needing child care to go > to their own jobs. Many women quit the job force at many levels of many jobs because of that, and needing to attend to their children?s education. In many cases working from home with children?s needs contained Too Many Imponderables?the Great Resignation at the earlier days. Later on, many people realized how unhappy their jobs made them, and sought more satisfying, better working conditions, or better paying jobs?or started their own businesses?especially once the additional unemployment funding was ending. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From vanlook19 at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 03:43:47 2021 From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 19:43:47 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths OT: In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 5:41 PM Damien Sullivan wrote: > Though that's a "mid-century USA" thing, not a "pre-modern civilization" > thing. Japanese housewives traditionally manage the household, > including finances. Wouldn't expect a samurai to worry his head about > filthy lucre, after all. > Women managing the household finances happened all across the world. We have the most documentation from European cultures, of course, from m'ladywife-as-chatelaine managing the castle while m'lord was off on Crusade to the daughters and wives of the Georgian period managing the households of the great estates (from the real Chatsworth to the fictional Pemberley). We see those attitudes carried all over the "British Empire" of course. BJ From saffronrose at me.com Tue Nov 9 04:07:22 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 20:07:22 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths OT: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18C7236C-CDA2-4D16-90B3-4AD38A5CC107@me.com> On Nov 8, 2021, at 7:44 PM, B Van Look wrote: > > Women managing the household finances happened all across the world. We > have the most documentation from European cultures, of course, from > m'ladywife-as-chatelaine managing the castle while m'lord was off on > Crusade to the daughters and wives of the Georgian period managing the > households of the great estates (from the real Chatsworth to the fictional > Pemberley). We see those attitudes carried all over the "British Empire" of > course. They were trained from 10 on to do this: it was expected that they would, up through the WWs. Some of this went away during WWI and beyond, and more so during WWII?very few folks remained in service, especially males. The dead ones lessened the pool as well. After WWII, things for the Great Houses and other Peerage changed completely. Women in the middle ages onward ran all manner of businesses: their own, their families, or their husbands. Lots of apothecaries and breweries were owned or run by women. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Nov 9 10:29:06 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 10:29:06 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Back online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The joys go on Thunderstorm on Sunday night. Wifi fried. Called the company on Monday. Technician arrived Tuesday (today). Called, replaced the NBN box. Wifi worked. He left. Wifi stopped. He came back. Fiddled with the modem. Fixed it. Left. Text from the company, telling me to call them. Called them. Spent the next hour taking bits of the modem out and putting them back in again. Does it work now? And now? So, finally, it seems to work. Until the next one..... From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Nov 9 10:31:17 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 10:31:17 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Marc Wilson On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 13:18:15 -0500, Eric Oppen wrote: >I lost my grandfather on Christmas Day back in the 1970s, and my father the >day after Christmas, 1991. My own feelings about the holiday are---mixed, >at best. Lost my mother a week before Christmas, back in 1995. A couple of days before their wedding anniversary, too. Christmas that year was.. bleak. Gwynne: Lost Dad eight years ago last week. Lost Mum last year, in September. On Dad's birthday. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Nov 9 10:35:25 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 10:35:25 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Marc Wilson On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 13:19:05 -0500, Eric Oppen wrote:... >Kind of like how I've complained about how, when the news media *spit* >cover a big SF con, they push past lots of nice people who could explain >just what's going on, to zero in on the fattiest, smelliest, sweatiest, >neckbearded basement-dwelling geek they can find, wearing the most >obviously-fake Spock ears, and portray this guy as absolutely typical of >the con as a whole, instead of someone most of us put up with. Beer festivals and fat blokes with beards and sandals get the same media treatment. The crossover with unix symposia is significant. :) Gwynne: I hate those 'Aren't these people stupid' stories they call 'human interest'. It mostly shows the narrow life experience of the reporter. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Nov 9 10:37:57 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 10:37:57 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Marc Wilson ... Jerks will jerk. Should I ever own a restaurant, I think I'd get staff to wear a bodycam. And anyone complaining would have the footage run, and if it turned out the customer was the jerk, the customer would be banned. Gwynne: Don't just ban the customer, run the vid online and make money out of it! From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Nov 9 11:01:02 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 11:01:02 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: WILLIAM A WENRICH If you disagree with someone, even if it is a matter of taste or an opinion, they are now evil layers. William A Wenrich Gwynne: This has become a widespread and serious problem, there's a name for it which I totally forget. But, online especially, people become offended, distressed and outraged if someone doesn't agree with them, no matter how politely it is done. To disagree is seen as a personal attack, and the reaction can be vicious. There's so many cases of high-profile people and media personalities making one comment, or a decades-old post of theirs turning up, and the online frenzy destroys their careers, or leads to frantic backpedalling as the person tries to save their career. It's done to 'ordinary' people too - something sets off the frenzy and masses of total strangers shred the person. People have lost jobs, families, everything, because of a few stray words. Disagreeing with them has become a personal attack, and it's incredibly important for them to attack, and be seen to attack - just ignoring it isn't enough. And the source of a comment becomes important; you'll see two people make similar comments; about something non-political or harmless; one person is torn to pieces, everything they say is denigrated; the other gets a free pass, because their other ideas are 'correct'. It's a sad thing to see. People should be free to hold their own opinions, and think the way they choose. And to accept that not everyone will agree with you. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Tue Nov 9 11:39:12 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2021 11:39:12 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Nov 2021 12:56:23 -0800, "A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold" wrote: >On Nov 8, 2021, at 3:17 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: >> >> ?On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 17:53:59 +0000, Joel Polowin >> wrote: >> >>> And restaurateurs report that the >>> incidence of customers being jerks is *much* higher than it had been >>> before the pandemic. >> >> I suspect the jerks have a lot of backed-up jerkery that they've not >> been able to use. :) >> >> Jerks will jerk. > >Throw bottles of jerk sauce at them? Pickapeppa bottles are too small to do any good. > >> Should I ever own a restaurant, I think I'd get staff to wear a bodycam. >> And anyone complaining would have the footage run, and if it turned out >> the customer was the jerk, the customer would be banned. > >That?s protecting your staff! Tipping or no tipping? Loophole rock-bottom tipped wage, or everyone gets paid a decent hourly, and any tips are pooled? Well, it would be in the UK, so everyone has to be paid at least minwage, and these days you don't get restaurant staff for minwage. At all. Pooling tips is the way to go (though my father did once go to a restaurant where the staff were well-paid, and the head-waiter was not paid *at all*, but kept all the tips. He lived very well, it was a smart place and he ran a *very* tight ship. Wouldn't be legal now, he'd have to be paid at least minwage). Tipping is what it should be, here - a bonus for good service, not an essential part of income. If you don't tip waitstaff here, they just shrug, they don't chase you down the street. Unless you tried that fake-currency shit with bible tracts, in which case they might come out and punch you (and report you for counterfeit notes, come to that). Because people won't starve if you don't tip them, it's possible to be quite nuanced here. My dad once tipped a waiter a penny, and said: "Sorry I've nothing smaller." It /had/ been a catastrophically bad meal. 10% is the rule of thumb, but nobody gets excited if you give less, or more, or nothing at all. In France, tipping is fairly optional; rounding up the next sensible unit is common, so you might pay ?10 on a ?8.50 bill, for instance. Or just dump the loose change you've accumulated. The French word is "pourboire" - for a drink, essentially. Seems to be much the same in Spain. -- Life would be so much simpler if climate change didn?t exist. But as scientists, we don?t have the luxury of pretending. - Kevin Walsh From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Tue Nov 9 11:39:49 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2021 11:39:49 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Nov 2021 15:25:57 -0500, Damien Sullivan wrote: >On Mon, Nov 08, 2021 at 02:06:04PM +0000, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >> If you disagree with someone, even if it is a matter of taste or an opinion, they are now evil layers. > >"evil layers"? What are you even talking about? Bad chickens? -- Life would be so much simpler if climate change didn?t exist. But as scientists, we don?t have the luxury of pretending. - Kevin Walsh From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Tue Nov 9 11:41:10 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2021 11:41:10 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 10:37:57 +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: >From: Marc Wilson > >... >Jerks will jerk. >Should I ever own a restaurant, I think I'd get staff to wear a bodycam. >And anyone complaining would have the footage run, and if it turned out >the customer was the jerk, the customer would be banned. > >Gwynne: Don't just ban the customer, run the vid online and make >money out of it! Might be GDPR issues, you'd have to get it lawyered properly. Might be OK if this is stated up front and prominently: "People behaving badly to our staff will be shamed on social media". -- Life would be so much simpler if climate change didn?t exist. But as scientists, we don?t have the luxury of pretending. - Kevin Walsh From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Tue Nov 9 11:42:01 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2021 11:42:01 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: What is your 10? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3knkogt62u0t5bc5fm8koigd9aeo09ge12@4ax.com> On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 10:31:17 +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: >From: Marc Wilson > >On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 13:18:15 -0500, Eric Oppen >wrote: >>I lost my grandfather on Christmas Day back in the 1970s, and my father the >>day after Christmas, 1991. My own feelings about the holiday are---mixed, >>at best. > >Lost my mother a week before Christmas, back in 1995. A couple of days >before their wedding anniversary, too. Christmas that year was.. bleak. > > >Gwynne: Lost Dad eight years ago last week. Lost Mum last year, in September. >On Dad's birthday. Ow. -- Life would be so much simpler if climate change didn?t exist. But as scientists, we don?t have the luxury of pretending. - Kevin Walsh From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Tue Nov 9 11:47:09 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2021 11:47:09 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths OT: In-Reply-To: <18C7236C-CDA2-4D16-90B3-4AD38A5CC107@me.com> References: <18C7236C-CDA2-4D16-90B3-4AD38A5CC107@me.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Nov 2021 20:07:22 -0800, "A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold" wrote: > >After WWII, things for the Great Houses and other Peerage changed completely. A lot of the Stately Homes of England are now National Trust or English Heritage possessions, or run under a similar Trust, some with the family remnants living in a (relatively) small apartment within the structure. All to do with death duties, which would otherwise in many cases have required the houses to be sold as hotels, or demolished for building land. It's nice, I think, that the buildings have been preserved as living museums, rather than eking out a paltry existence as conference centres. -- Life would be so much simpler if climate change didn?t exist. But as scientists, we don?t have the luxury of pretending. - Kevin Walsh From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Tue Nov 9 11:51:29 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2021 11:51:29 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Nov 2021 12:50:33 -0800, "A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold" wrote: >On Nov 8, 2021, at 3:21 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: >> >> ?On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 15:54:06 -0700, "A. Marina Fournier weote: >>> >>> >>> Why is it that Iceland appeals more, with similar tectonic issues? It?s not just skyr, geothermal energy, the lovely sound of its language. Sheeps! That must be it?lambies & sheepses. >> >> The worst thing about Iceland is the tree shortage - in every sense. >> There's a joke: "What do you do if you're lost in an Icelandic forest? >> Stand up." >> >> When I was there in 1997, there was a celebration because a tree had >> reached the height of (IIRC) ten metres. >> >> They are reforesting with some enthusiasm, but there's a long way to go. > >I understand Lincolnshire is having to restore its forests?Robin Hood would be unable to live it it now. There's a general move (not quick enough for my liking, but even so) towards reforestation; they could not build Drake's fleet now, without imported oak. The scale of deforestation is not always realised; they used to say a squirrel could travel the length of England without ever putting a foot on the ground. Which may have a touch of hyperbole about it, but we've certainly lost a lot of tree cover, with all manner of consequences for weather and soil management. >I had no idea of Iceland?s deforestation. Glad they?re working to restore it. Bloody Vikings! -- To know and to act are one and the same. - Samurai proverb From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Tue Nov 9 11:54:42 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2021 11:54:42 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99okog9igcvbmmgo6ksnacqrjajm174bvb@4ax.com> On Mon, 8 Nov 2021 19:22:35 -0600, Eric Oppen wrote: >AFAIK, Iceland never had much in the way of forests. What little there was >when the first settlers arrived was scrubby and not good for much. https://adventures.is/blog/why-are-there-no-trees-in-iceland Seems it was warmer 1,100 years ago, and was extensively forested. "When the Vikings came to this remote island in the North Atlantic Ocean the land was extensively forested. Around 1100 years ago the climate was warmer than it is now, and the glaciers were smaller than they are at the present time, even though there has been accelerating melting of the Icelandic glaciers for many decades. In even older times those glaciers were far smaller, the remains of a massive 3000-year-old forest have been discovered under Brei?amerkurj?kull, a glacier tongue of Vatnaj?kull. So, there is now evidence that Iceland was even more heavily forested in older pre-settlement times than people had thought. Fossils, place names, the remnants of charcoal and climate modeling suggest that 25% to 40% of Iceland was forested when the Vikings came." -- To know and to act are one and the same. - Samurai proverb From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Tue Nov 9 11:56:01 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2021 11:56:01 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6eokogpdu6dj4bvccpefrje4r70s77t3ep@4ax.com> On Mon, 8 Nov 2021 09:21:36 -0500, Kathy Collett wrote: >On Nov 8, 2021, at 6:40 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: >> >> There's a plant in many gardens that will kill you if you just sit under >> it for 10 minutes. > >Um, any plant that grows flat to the ground? > >If that?s not what you mean, do tell! > Water-lily. -- To know and to act are one and the same. - Samurai proverb From dbernat at gol.com Tue Nov 9 12:48:24 2021 From: dbernat at gol.com (dbernat) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2021 21:48:24 +0900 Subject: [LMB] OT: William says, people are being mean to William In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <31876526dcf15996c41a1eed1194dfd3@gol.com> WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Truly an example of what I was saying. If, purely on the basis of text in an email message, someone decides that I am the Antichrist.... Some temptations are too juicy to be passed by From vanlook19 at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 13:25:25 2021 From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 05:25:25 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 3:51 AM Marc Wilson wrote: > The scale of deforestation is not always realised; they used to say a > squirrel could travel the length of England without ever putting a foot > on the ground. Which may have a touch of hyperbole about it, but we've > certainly lost a lot of tree cover, with all manner of consequences for > weather and soil management. > I grew up in the American Midwest hearing a variant of the squirrel saying, along the lines of "between the Atlantic and the Mississippi" to give an idea of how heavily forested the Eastern and Midwestern US used to be. BJ From phoenix at mindstalk.net Tue Nov 9 13:27:23 2021 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:27:23 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think Treebeard says the squirrel thing, of the old days. From wawenri at msn.com Tue Nov 9 13:28:33 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 13:28:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Back online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I?m using DSL over the phone lines for my internet connection. When I moved into my house, about 36 years ago, it had cable connections but they were in bad shape, maybe because the ?buried? cable was no more than an inch or two underground. Cable at that time was all TV and movies since the internet browsers were not released to the public until 1993. I never bought cable. When I first started using DSL from the phone company, I used my own modem/WiFi. Each box would last less than a year. Finally, I just rented one from the phone company. Yes it costs more and I?m likely being ripped off, but I have only had it replaced twice in the last ~25 years. Since then I have dropped my landlines and, last year, I installed a mesh network to get better WIFI throughout my house. (I think that I whined on list about my problems.) My newest modem is not using its WIFI but is wired directly into the mesh. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell Sent: Tuesday, November 9, 2021 3:29:06 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] Back online The joys go on Thunderstorm on Sunday night. Wifi fried. Called the company on Monday. Technician arrived Tuesday (today). Called, replaced the NBN box. Wifi worked. He left. Wifi stopped. He came back. Fiddled with the modem. Fixed it. Left. Text from the company, telling me to call them. Called them. Spent the next hour taking bits of the modem out and putting them back in again. Does it work now? And now? So, finally, it seems to work. Until the next one..... -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C330ebbafb6c34128ef1108d9a36bc8d2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637720505591753629%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=5Xog0nJtNW9xp2261fjlW0UKgjWSf9meo6H8oA7iSVQ%3D&reserved=0 From wawenri at msn.com Tue Nov 9 13:35:30 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 13:35:30 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would just as soon do away with tipping. When I go to a restaurant, I usually tip about 20% and if I get especially good service (which still happens in spite of the staffing shortages) I tip 25%. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Marc Wilson Sent: Tuesday, November 9, 2021 4:39:12 AM To: LMB Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety On Mon, 8 Nov 2021 12:56:23 -0800, "A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold" wrote: >On Nov 8, 2021, at 3:17 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: >> >> ?On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 17:53:59 +0000, Joel Polowin >> wrote: >> >>> And restaurateurs report that the >>> incidence of customers being jerks is *much* higher than it had been >>> before the pandemic. >> >> I suspect the jerks have a lot of backed-up jerkery that they've not >> been able to use. :) >> >> Jerks will jerk. > >Throw bottles of jerk sauce at them? Pickapeppa bottles are too small to do any good. > >> Should I ever own a restaurant, I think I'd get staff to wear a bodycam. >> And anyone complaining would have the footage run, and if it turned out >> the customer was the jerk, the customer would be banned. > >That?s protecting your staff! Tipping or no tipping? Loophole rock-bottom tipped wage, or everyone gets paid a decent hourly, and any tips are pooled? Well, it would be in the UK, so everyone has to be paid at least minwage, and these days you don't get restaurant staff for minwage. At all. Pooling tips is the way to go (though my father did once go to a restaurant where the staff were well-paid, and the head-waiter was not paid *at all*, but kept all the tips. He lived very well, it was a smart place and he ran a *very* tight ship. Wouldn't be legal now, he'd have to be paid at least minwage). Tipping is what it should be, here - a bonus for good service, not an essential part of income. If you don't tip waitstaff here, they just shrug, they don't chase you down the street. Unless you tried that fake-currency shit with bible tracts, in which case they might come out and punch you (and report you for counterfeit notes, come to that). Because people won't starve if you don't tip them, it's possible to be quite nuanced here. My dad once tipped a waiter a penny, and said: "Sorry I've nothing smaller." It /had/ been a catastrophically bad meal. 10% is the rule of thumb, but nobody gets excited if you give less, or more, or nothing at all. In France, tipping is fairly optional; rounding up the next sensible unit is common, so you might pay ?10 on a ?8.50 bill, for instance. Or just dump the loose change you've accumulated. The French word is "pourboire" - for a drink, essentially. Seems to be much the same in Spain. -- Life would be so much simpler if climate change didn?t exist. But as scientists, we don?t have the luxury of pretending. - Kevin Walsh -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C1b23a80a3d9e48ff5fa108d9a3759277%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637720547630279311%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=DIAgR8eHLJJKdm5g2LsxQkZSMwTlVKPccLKx5sWadV4%3D&reserved=0 From wawenri at msn.com Tue Nov 9 13:41:19 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 13:41:19 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In the US it depends on the state. In some states, as long as one party in the conversation knows that it?s being recorded, you?re OK. In others, everyone needs to be informed. Even a posted notice may not be enough. How many people, even those who treat service people correctly, should object to being recorded? William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Marc Wilson Sent: Tuesday, November 9, 2021 4:41:10 AM To: LMB Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 10:37:57 +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: >From: Marc Wilson > >... >Jerks will jerk. >Should I ever own a restaurant, I think I'd get staff to wear a bodycam. >And anyone complaining would have the footage run, and if it turned out >the customer was the jerk, the customer would be banned. > >Gwynne: Don't just ban the customer, run the vid online and make >money out of it! Might be GDPR issues, you'd have to get it lawyered properly. Might be OK if this is stated up front and prominently: "People behaving badly to our staff will be shamed on social media". -- Life would be so much simpler if climate change didn?t exist. But as scientists, we don?t have the luxury of pretending. - Kevin Walsh -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C022cde652bc34b25f46d08d9a375d839%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637720548800995232%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=SdllbpQ9pQxeNt1%2B8ze%2FJ5WeMfjeBKQgzjaIqeiRWPY%3D&reserved=0 From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 9 13:49:16 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 06:49:16 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Nov 9, 2021, at 6:35 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > I would just as soon do away with tipping. When I go to a restaurant, I usually tip about 20% and if I get especially good service (which still happens in spite of the staffing shortages) I tip 25%. Me too. But I note that servers at inexpensive restaurants work just as hard as servers at expensive restaurants. From alzurite at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 13:50:06 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:50:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Iceland Message-ID: A. Marina Fournier said, re the lack of trees on Iceland: > So it wasn?t Vikings responsible for that, for building their ships. ISTR that Iceland wasn?t > inhabited until the 10th century, and *not* by Vikings. That sent me running to Wikipedia to check it out. There were Celtic monks in Iceland before the Scandinavians, around 800 A.D. - the time of Charlemagne. There can't have been a lot of them. It was the Scandinavians who first came and settled (with women and families and households). But they've also found remains of a longhouse from about 800, too. Cool. As for the trees: They are so far north. 64?N. The furthest north I've ever been in Canada was Moosonnee, on James Bay, which is only 51?N. The trees there were little stubby things. The furthest north I've been in Europe was Orkney, at 59?. They have some trees. Not many. I was amused how many people there told me "This tree in front of my house is the only tree in Orkney" - all 4 or 5 of them An enterprising and wealthy Victorian made a small forest within stone walls - the tips of the trees form a perfect parabola at roughly the height of the stone walls. Trees have trouble growing at all, that far north. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 9 13:52:42 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 06:52:42 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Nov 9, 2021, at 6:41 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > In the US it depends on the state. In some states, as long as one party in the conversation knows that it?s being recorded, you?re OK. In others, everyone needs to be informed. Even a posted notice may not be enough. That?s what I?ve heard, (especially with phone calls) but nowadays video cameras are ubiquitous. Cars are recording everything. Police have their cameras on. People at the next table are recording. If those laws are still in effect, they appear to be ignored. From profjenn12 at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 13:54:56 2021 From: profjenn12 at gmail.com (J Woodruff) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:54:56 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Iceland In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My husband's family is from Shetland. I've been there numerous times (and to Orkney twice.) Even fewer trees. Although my father-in-law's cousin somehow managed to grow a palm tree in her front yard! JLWT *********** *"der Platz einer Frau ist in ihrer Firma""The problem with the speed of light is it comes so early in the morning." (Albert Einstein)* *"Historiography has then three functions: to entertain our imagination, to gratify our curiosity, and to discharge a debt we owe our ancestors." (C.S. Lewis)"If all we have to offer back to the God of the cosmos is Precious Moments, we're in trouble." (Barbara Nicolosi)* *"Some things are complicated, and denying it only makes them more so." (John Churchill)* *?You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyway.? (Robert Jordan)"The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart." (Lois McMaster Bujold)************ On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 8:50 AM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > A. Marina Fournier said, re the lack of trees on Iceland: > > > So it wasn?t Vikings responsible for that, for building their ships. ISTR > that Iceland wasn?t > > inhabited until the 10th century, and *not* by Vikings. > > That sent me running to Wikipedia to check it out. There were Celtic monks > in Iceland before the Scandinavians, around 800 A.D. - the time of > Charlemagne. There can't have been a lot of them. It was the Scandinavians > who first came and settled (with women and families and households). But > they've also found remains of a longhouse from about 800, too. Cool. > > As for the trees: They are so far north. 64?N. The furthest north I've ever > been in Canada was Moosonnee, on James Bay, which is only 51?N. The trees > there were little stubby things. > > The furthest north I've been in Europe was Orkney, at 59?. They have some > trees. Not many. I was amused how many people there told me "This tree in > front of my house is the only tree in Orkney" - all 4 or 5 of them An > enterprising and wealthy Victorian made a small forest within stone walls - > the tips of the trees form a perfect parabola at roughly the height of the > stone walls. > > Trees have trouble growing at all, that far north. > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > > From alzurite at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 13:59:38 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:59:38 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Trees in Iceland Message-ID: Marc Wilson quotes: > "When the Vikings came to this remote island in the North Atlantic Ocean > the land was extensively forested. Around 1100 years ago the climate was > warmer than it is now, Is this true? My understanding is that the growth of trees in the north has less to do with temperatures and more to do with exposure to the sun. The quote you cite does sound authoritative. Forests 3,000 years ago? At that latitude? I wonder how tall the trees were. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From fishman at panix.com Tue Nov 9 14:27:18 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2021 14:27:18 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Back online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gwynne, is your Internet connection wired, cable, or what? Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "Gwynne Powell" To: "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 11/9/2021 5:29:06 AM Subject: [LMB] Back online >The joys go on > >Thunderstorm on Sunday night. Wifi fried. > >Called the company on Monday. > >Technician arrived Tuesday (today). Called, replaced the NBN box. Wifi worked. He left. > >Wifi stopped. He came back. Fiddled with the modem. Fixed it. Left. > >Text from the company, telling me to call them. > >Called them. Spent the next hour taking bits of the modem out and putting them back in again. Does it work now? And now? > >So, finally, it seems to work. > >Until the next one..... >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Nov 9 14:54:01 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 14:54:01 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: WILLIAM A WENRICH I would just as soon do away with tipping. When I go to a restaurant, I usually tip about 20% and if I get especially good service (which still happens in spite of the staffing shortages) I tip 25%. William A Wenrich Gwynne: We don't tip as much as the US does, and not in all the same places. I've always felt so guilty because one time when I was in the US I went to get my nails done - I'd had a few weeks in Alaska, and my nails really needed attention. I'd arrived in Philadelphia to stay with friends and went to get my nails done and the poor lady did a really great job. And I paid, and thanked her, and sailed out - and I didn't find out until some time later that it was expected that you tip the nail lady. I wish I'd known. From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 9 15:08:20 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:08:20 -0700 Subject: [LMB] SF Con fiction Message-ID: This week, there?s a story here: https://kriswrites.com/2021/11/08/free-fiction-monday-unity-con/ From fishman at panix.com Tue Nov 9 15:52:37 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2021 15:52:37 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Back online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: DSL is awful slow isn't it? I had it thirty years ago and than moved to cable. I currently have fiber with typically 800 Mb/s down and 900 Mb/s up. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 11/9/2021 8:28:33 AM Subject: Re: [LMB] Back online >I?m using DSL over the phone lines for my internet connection. When I moved into my house, about 36 years ago, it had cable connections but they were in bad shape, maybe because the ?buried? cable was no more than an inch or two underground. Cable at that time was all TV and movies since the internet browsers were not released to the public until 1993. I never bought cable. >When I first started using DSL from the phone company, I used my own modem/WiFi. Each box would last less than a year. Finally, I just rented one from the phone company. Yes it costs more and I?m likely being ripped off, but I have only had it replaced twice in the last ~25 years. Since then I have dropped my landlines and, last year, I installed a mesh network to get better WIFI throughout my house. (I think that I whined on list about my problems.) >My newest modem is not using its WIFI but is wired directly into the mesh. > >William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 16:26:38 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 11:26:38 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths OT: In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 8:41 PM Damien Sullivan wrote: > On Thu, Nov 04, 2021 at 10:25:51AM -0400, Sylvia McIvers wrote: > > > What an astonishing thing, that a banker could be a woman. Not just the > > tellers, the actual bankers! Girls can grow up to be bankers! > > Whereas before, girls get told not to worry their pretty little heads > > about money. > > Though that's a "mid-century USA" thing, 1980s. Not sure that's 'mid century'. > not a "pre-modern civilization" > thing. Japanese housewives traditionally manage the household, > including finances. xx- Damien X-) household finances, sure. Making 69 cents do the work of a dollar, sure. Banking, though? High finance? Surely you jest. Sylvia From jpolowin at hotmail.com Tue Nov 9 16:27:56 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:27:56 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Marc Wilson wrote: > Tipping is what it should be, here - a bonus for good service, not an > essential part of income.? If you don't tip waitstaff here, they just > shrug, they don't chase you down the street.? Unless you tried that > fake-currency shit with bible tracts, in which case they might come out > and punch you (and report you for counterfeit notes, come to that). I hadn't heard of those things before. Wow, that's sleazy. https://www.amazon.com/20-Bill-Money-Bible-Tract/dp/B01AMEULWK/ A truly effective way to turn the recipient away from Christianity. Joel From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Nov 9 16:42:25 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:42:25 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Back online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Harvey Fishman" Gwynne, is your Internet connection wired, cable, or what? Harvey Gwynne: NBN wifi. That's my entire knowledge about it all. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Nov 9 16:43:41 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:43:41 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Iceland In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And then there's Easter Island...... (Which is a fascinating place to visit.) From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 16:55:43 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 11:55:43 -0500 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 5:35 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Marc Wilson > > On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 13:19:05 -0500, Eric Oppen > wrote:... > >Kind of like how I've complained about how, when the news media *spit* > >cover a big SF con, they push past lots of nice people ... > > Beer festivals and fat blokes with beards and sandals get the same media > treatment. The crossover with unix symposia is significant. :) > > Gwynne: I hate those 'Aren't these people stupid' stories they call 'human > interest'. It mostly shows the narrow life experience of the reporter. > My favorite is the 'man on the street' interviews which show Americans are super dumb about geography. How many interviews are cut because people know the answers? No no, let's just enforce the stereotypes. It makes for better ratings. Let's also ignore what it says about the viewers, that it makes them feel good to know they are better than -group-. Sylvia From howard at brazee.net Tue Nov 9 17:11:03 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 10:11:03 -0700 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Nov 9, 2021, at 9:55 AM, Sylvia McIvers wrote: > > My favorite is the 'man on the street' interviews which show Americans are > super dumb about geography. How many interviews are cut because people > know the answers? And how many people answer stupid questions with stupid answers? From matt.msg at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 18:29:36 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 13:29:36 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The American forests never quite recovered from the loss of the Chestnut. Their virtual extinction meant animals had to rely more heavily on other food sources during winters, and so more stress was placed on other strands of the ecological web. One-fifth of the trees east of the Mississippi, lost in less than five years. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 18:31:33 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 13:31:33 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths OT: In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: If a given task or role was given respect, it would be considered unsuitable for women. That's how it works. Matt G. From kcollett at hamilton.edu Tue Nov 9 18:39:43 2021 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Kathy Collett) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 13:39:43 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Iceland In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6F6081A8-F446-4A6E-B152-6EB6C049A719@hamilton.edu> On Nov 9, 2021, at 8:50 AM, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > > That sent me running to Wikipedia to check it out. There were Celtic monks > in Iceland before the Scandinavians, around 800 A.D. - the time of > Charlemagne. There can't have been a lot of them. It was the Scandinavians > who first came and settled (with women and families and households). But > they've also found remains of a longhouse from about 800, too. Cool. Iceland was settled from Scandinavia late in the 9th century, and the national assembly, the Althing, was established in 930 at Thingvellir (which is an amazing place to visit). The Icelandic people respected the authority of the Althing enough so that when it collectively decided in the year 1000 that the country should become Christian, they did so. Laxdaela Saga deals a lot with the settlement of Iceland, if anyone is interested. Katherine (BA/MA in Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Celtic from Cambridge ? most of which I?ve forgotten, but the 1000 date for the conversion to Christianity has stuck, and I do have a shelf of Old Norse texts, translations, and reference works) From baur at chello.at Tue Nov 9 19:52:08 2021 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 20:52:08 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Iceland In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: during my interrail times (ans later) i saw trees north of the polar circle (currently 66?33?48.8? N) both in sweden and norway mostly birch and they were not large servus markus Am 09.11.2021 um 14:50 schrieb Elizabeth Holden: > A. Marina Fournier said, re the lack of trees on Iceland: > >> So it wasn?t Vikings responsible for that, for building their ships. ISTR > that Iceland wasn?t >> inhabited until the 10th century, and *not* by Vikings. > > That sent me running to Wikipedia to check it out. There were Celtic monks > in Iceland before the Scandinavians, around 800 A.D. - the time of > Charlemagne. There can't have been a lot of them. It was the Scandinavians > who first came and settled (with women and families and households). But > they've also found remains of a longhouse from about 800, too. Cool. > > As for the trees: They are so far north. 64?N. The furthest north I've ever > been in Canada was Moosonnee, on James Bay, which is only 51?N. The trees > there were little stubby things. > > The furthest north I've been in Europe was Orkney, at 59?. They have some > trees. Not many. I was amused how many people there told me "This tree in > front of my house is the only tree in Orkney" - all 4 or 5 of them An > enterprising and wealthy Victorian made a small forest within stone walls - > the tips of the trees form a perfect parabola at roughly the height of the > stone walls. > > Trees have trouble growing at all, that far north. > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From proto at panix.com Tue Nov 9 23:00:32 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:00:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <415BBCC3-6815-4D85-AE3B-BA9CA32FD1D4@panix.com> > On Nov 9, 2021, at 11:27 AM, Joel Polowin wrote: > > Marc Wilson wrote: >> Tipping is what it should be, here - a bonus for good service, not an >> essential part of income. If you don't tip waitstaff here, they just >> shrug, they don't chase you down the street. Unless you tried that >> fake-currency shit with bible tracts, in which case they might come out >> and punch you (and report you for counterfeit notes, come to that). > > I hadn't heard of those things before. Wow, that's sleazy. > https://www.amazon.com/20-Bill-Money-Bible-Tract/dp/B01AMEULWK/ > A truly effective way to turn the recipient away from Christianity. > > Joel Bit their religious leader tells them that it is the best tip they ever got. The leaders might actually believe it From proto at panix.com Tue Nov 9 23:12:54 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:12:54 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths OT: In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> Message-ID: <5D5FCEC4-A78C-49A7-89A2-0948AECB11A9@panix.com> > On Nov 9, 2021, at 1:31 PM, Matthew George wrote: > > If a given task or role was given respect, it would be considered > unsuitable for women. That's how it works. > > Matt G. > -- > Given that men have a vested interest in keeping women out. To many women in an area and the salary goes down. And the bosses have an incentive to keep women ot, because their salary depends on the salary of their subordinates. ? Sig of no sig. From stellanl at concinnity.se Tue Nov 9 23:38:08 2021 From: stellanl at concinnity.se (=?UTF-8?Q?Stellan_Lagerstr=c3=b6m?=) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 00:38:08 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Trees in Iceland In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We can compare Iceland to Sweden at the same latitude, where the trees grow tall and logging is a major industry. Due to the geography it's significantly warmer here, especially in the summer, (except at high altitude). The major factors remaining is soil and the cloud cover, which I suspect is less here. How that causes/is caused by higher average temperature is probably complex. /Stellan On 2021-11-09 14:59, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Marc Wilson quotes: > >> "When the Vikings came to this remote island in the North Atlantic Ocean >> the land was extensively forested. Around 1100 years ago the climate was >> warmer than it is now, > Is this true? My understanding is that the growth of trees in the north has > less to do with temperatures and more to do with exposure to the sun. The > quote you cite does sound authoritative. Forests 3,000 years ago? At that > latitude? I wonder how tall the trees were. > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden From tlambs1138 at charter.net Wed Nov 10 00:29:53 2021 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:29:53 -0800 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers Message-ID: <090301d7d5ca$14c71360$3e553a20$@charter.net> No no, let's just enforce the stereotypes. It makes for better ratings. Let's also ignore what it says about the viewers, that it makes them feel good to know they are better than -group-. Sylvia ---Jay Leno used to go out on the street and find the stupidest people possible. We always thought that if he interviewed us, we'd get all of his questions right and then we'd say, "We know you won't show it." Then again, some days I look at the police report and I take comfort from not being in it. Jean Lamb tlambs1138 at charter.net https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20 From rgmolpus at flash.net Wed Nov 10 01:57:48 2021 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard G. Molpus) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 01:57:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Barrayaran oaths References: <1642731540.158582.1636509468452.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1642731540.158582.1636509468452@mail.yahoo.com> Was thinking of different minor oaths and curses Barrayarans have.??'May you be raked by the claws of all the Vorkosigan cats!'??'You should go rafting over the Vorbarra falls!'??'Go kiss a Cetagandan!'??'Count to twenty-two on you toes!'??'You make Vorfolse look rich!' Feel free to add more! Richard Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Wed Nov 10 02:11:12 2021 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:11:12 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Barrayaran oaths In-Reply-To: <1642731540.158582.1636509468452@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1642731540.158582.1636509468452.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1642731540.158582.1636509468452@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Nov 9, 2021, at 5:57 PM, Richard G. Molpus wrote: > > Was thinking of different minor oaths and curses Barrayarans have. 'May you be raked by the claws of all the Vorkosigan cats!' 'You should go rafting over the Vorbarra falls!' 'Go kiss a Cetagandan!' 'Count to twenty-two on you toes!' 'You make Vorfolse look rich!' > Feel free to add more! > Richard Those aren?t oaths, they are curses. "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 11:01:23 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 05:01:23 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: <5985DB4E-C2A3-41AF-BD09-F155A201F3E6@me.com> References: <35D148EA-EF9F-44F9-B0A3-DAFDB0483AF6@brazee.net> <5985DB4E-C2A3-41AF-BD09-F155A201F3E6@me.com> Message-ID: My primary Library is located inside Saddlebrook Middle School, the OPS (Omaha Public Schools) has a mask mandate. So I mask up. The local Walmart also asks us to mask up.so I do. Those places that don't ask us to mask up I decide on how many cars are in the parking lot then make a decision. So far so good. Rule of thumb is, if I find more then five cars parked closest to the store in the parking lot I mask up. Anything less then I decide, whether to mask, or not or not to mask. On Sun, Nov 7, 2021, 4:52 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Nov 7, 2021, at 7:57 AM, brazee wrote: > > > > Some fast food restaurants aren?t open yet for indoor seating (KFC). > > In?n-Out restaurants in SF and Contra Costa (northern end of the East Bay, > above Berkeley & Oakland) Counties hadn?t been checking vaccination status > for indoor dining. I *think* the drive-thrus there are still open, but no > dining-in at any In?n-Out in either of those counties. > > > It?s kind of funny how quickly diners take off their masks in > restaurants. > > Indoors or out, I?m paranoid or leery or whatever, so that unless I?m > actively eating or drinking, the mask is up. Server comes, no matter what, > the mask goes across my face. Not everyone shows servers that courtesy. > > > For me, the worst part of masks is when I am wearing glasses that fog > > If there?s no nose wire, or it?s not crimped just so, my glasses fog. > > > My wife though can?t walk much with her mask on. She says it?s > physical, not psychological, and I say it doesn?t matter what it is, it?s > real. > > It IS real. Whether it?s breathing or visual obstruction or not, it?s real > for the person involved. There are some masks that creep up my lower eyelid > which would make me unwilling to walk or drive with. > > There are better designs for disposable masks these days, and I need to > find a couple of them to try out. Apple has one they?re giving out to staff. > > FTR/FYI, unvaccinated staff returning to Apple offices in the new year > will be tested daily, and vaccinated staff weekly. This is absolutely the > case at The Apple Spaceship campus. > > A. Marina Fournier > saffronrose at me.com > Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e > Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA > Sent from iFionnghuala > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From huntkc at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 11:38:19 2021 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 06:38:19 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Barrayaran oaths In-Reply-To: <1642731540.158582.1636509468452@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1642731540.158582.1636509468452.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1642731540.158582.1636509468452@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: May butterbugs infest your home! I hope you spend the rest of your career on Kyril Island! On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 8:58 PM Richard G. Molpus wrote: > Was thinking of different minor oaths and curses Barrayarans have. 'May > you be raked by the claws of all the Vorkosigan cats!' 'You should go > rafting over the Vorbarra falls!' 'Go kiss a Cetagandan!' 'Count to > twenty-two on you toes!' 'You make Vorfolse look rich!' > Feel free to add more! > Richard > > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to huntkc at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Wed Nov 10 11:59:48 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:59:48 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 06:52:42 -0700, brazee wrote: > > >> On Nov 9, 2021, at 6:41 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >> >> In the US it depends on the state. In some states, as long as one party in the conversation knows that it?s being recorded, you?re OK. In others, everyone needs to be informed. Even a posted notice may not be enough. > >That?s what I?ve heard, (especially with phone calls) but nowadays video cameras are ubiquitous. Cars are recording everything. Police have their cameras on. People at the next table are recording. If those laws are still in effect, they appear to be ignored. It's more stringent here, due to the Data Protection Act and GDPR. Someone recently lost a court case because their video doorbell was recording conversations in their neighbour's garden. -- If cleanliness is next to godliness then your desk must be an atheist. - Geek horoscopes From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Wed Nov 10 12:04:53 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:04:53 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Trees in Iceland In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:59:38 -0500, Elizabeth Holden wrote: >Marc Wilson quotes: > >> "When the Vikings came to this remote island in the North Atlantic Ocean >> the land was extensively forested. Around 1100 years ago the climate was >> warmer than it is now, > >Is this true? My understanding is that the growth of trees in the north has >less to do with temperatures and more to do with exposure to the sun. The >quote you cite does sound authoritative. Forests 3,000 years ago? At that >latitude? I wonder how tall the trees were. There are forests there *now*; it's just that you can see over most of them. :) Hence the joke. There's a serious drive toward reforestation, but many of the plantations are only one or two decades old. Mostly it's birch, which don't grow to stupendous heights anyway - and grow significantly North of Iceland (Iceland only sneaks into the Arctic circle countries by virtue of a couple of tiny islands off the North coast, IIRC). -- If cleanliness is next to godliness then your desk must be an atheist. - Geek horoscopes From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Wed Nov 10 12:16:48 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:16:48 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Iceland In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0ndnogdu13s6bvhj1dm8c0asqv1h4ca5oh@4ax.com> On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:50:06 -0500, Elizabeth Holden wrote: >A. Marina Fournier said, re the lack of trees on Iceland: > >> So it wasn?t Vikings responsible for that, for building their ships. ISTR >that Iceland wasn?t >> inhabited until the 10th century, and *not* by Vikings. > >That sent me running to Wikipedia to check it out. There were Celtic monks >in Iceland before the Scandinavians, around 800 A.D. - the time of >Charlemagne. There can't have been a lot of them. It was the Scandinavians >who first came and settled (with women and families and households). But >they've also found remains of a longhouse from about 800, too. Cool. > >As for the trees: They are so far north. 64?N. The furthest north I've ever >been in Canada was Moosonnee, on James Bay, which is only 51?N. The trees >there were little stubby things. > >The furthest north I've been in Europe was Orkney, at 59?. They have some >trees. Not many. I was amused how many people there told me "This tree in >front of my house is the only tree in Orkney" - all 4 or 5 of them An >enterprising and wealthy Victorian made a small forest within stone walls - >the tips of the trees form a perfect parabola at roughly the height of the >stone walls. Orkney is pretty windswept, which doesn't help. Isolated trees have more trouble growing than forest trees, as the forest helps break up the wind (anyone who has dived into a wood on a windy day knows sharply how the wind force drops off as you go deeper in). >Trees have trouble growing at all, that far north. https://askinglot.com/open-detail/382688 The tree line is North of the Arctic Circle, which most of Iceland isn't. Trees grow slowly, but they do grow. Boreal forest is the world's largest land biome. http://ibfra.org/about-boreal-forests/ -- This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it - John Adams From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Wed Nov 10 12:20:06 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:20:06 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Back online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:42:25 +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: >From: "Harvey Fishman" > >Gwynne, is your Internet connection wired, cable, or what? >Harvey > >Gwynne: NBN wifi. That's my entire knowledge about it all. Do you have the "NBN Fixed Wireless" with an outdoor antenna? -- This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it - John Adams From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Wed Nov 10 12:21:12 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:21:12 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:27:23 -0500, Damien Sullivan wrote: >I think Treebeard says the squirrel thing, of the old days. It's likely that Tolkien would have heard the saying, it's certainly older than that. -- Sometimes I wonder if men and women really suit each other. Perhaps they should live next door and just visit now and then. - Katharine Hepburn From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Nov 10 12:56:49 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:56:49 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Barrayaran oaths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Your heart is colder than Kyril Island! You're less use than a town clown. I'd rather kiss a Ghem than you! From proto at panix.com Wed Nov 10 14:01:05 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 09:01:05 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Barrayaran oaths In-Reply-To: References: <1642731540.158582.1636509468452.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1642731540.158582.1636509468452@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 10, 2021, at 6:38 AM, Karen Hunt wrote: > > May butterbugs infest your home! Make that Vorkosigan butterbugs infest your home. ? ?That which doesn?t make us stronger kills us.? From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 15:20:49 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 09:20:49 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Just saw _The Last Duel_ last night Message-ID: I went to a movie (something I seldom do) to see *The Last Duel*. I'd been wanting to see it since I heard about it. I wanted to see how accurate things were. I liked it, on the whole. They took the Rashomon approach of showing the events that led to the duel from three different POVs---Jean de Carrouge, Jacques le Gris, and Marguerite de Carrouge. The whole thing made me think of the Time of Isolation on Barrayar---I could see the movie being very popular with the older-fashioned Barrayarans. As far as I could tell (I'm not really an expert on these things, compared to quite a few people I know in the SCA and elsewhere) the clothes were period-correct, and so was the armor worn. One detail they left out that I thought should have been included---it wouldn't have taken long---was that, in the real duel, before the fight started, Jacques le Gris was knighted. Previously, he'd been a squire, albeit a high-ranking one in his lord's household. The reason for that was that in that time and place, for a knight to be defeated by a squire would be a Bad Thing. So---did any of you all see this? What did you think? From kawyle at att.net Wed Nov 10 15:39:41 2021 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:39:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Just saw _The Last Duel_ last night In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1209890197.2136984.1636558781527@mail.yahoo.com> I haven't seen it, but I did see or read (I forget which) some discussion of it that pointed out the ways it diverged from the recorded event. Apparently the rape was more brutal and undeniable than shown in the movie -- but sticking to the reality would have made the Rashomon approach less feasible. Karen A. Wyle On Wednesday, November 10, 2021, 10:21:04 AM EST, Eric Oppen wrote: I went to a movie (something I seldom do) to see *The Last Duel*.? I'd been wanting to see it since I heard about it.? I wanted to see how accurate things were. I liked it, on the whole.? They took the Rashomon approach of showing the events that led to the duel from three different POVs---Jean de Carrouge, Jacques le Gris, and Marguerite de Carrouge. The whole thing made me think of the Time of Isolation on Barrayar---I could see the movie being very popular with the older-fashioned Barrayarans.? As far as I could tell (I'm not really an expert on these things, compared to quite a few people I know in the SCA and elsewhere) the clothes were period-correct, and so was the armor worn. One detail they left out that I thought should have been included---it wouldn't have taken long---was that, in the real duel, before the fight started, Jacques le Gris was knighted.? Previously, he'd been a squire, albeit a high-ranking one in his lord's household.? The reason for that was that in that time and place, for a knight to be defeated by a squire would be a Bad Thing. So---did any of you all see this?? What did you think? -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From howard at brazee.net Wed Nov 10 15:49:19 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 08:49:19 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Just saw _The Last Duel_ last night In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Nov 10, 2021, at 8:20 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > One detail they left out that I thought should have been included---it > wouldn't have taken long---was that, in the real duel, before the fight > started, Jacques le Gris was knighted. Previously, he'd been a squire, > albeit a high-ranking one in his lord's household. The reason for that was > that in that time and place, for a knight to be defeated by a squire would > be a Bad Thing. Flash back to The Court Jester! From matt.msg at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 16:35:00 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:35:00 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths OT: In-Reply-To: <5D5FCEC4-A78C-49A7-89A2-0948AECB11A9@panix.com> References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> <5D5FCEC4-A78C-49A7-89A2-0948AECB11A9@panix.com> Message-ID: Meanwhile, there is a distinct incentive to the elites to ensure there are plenty of people competing for manual labor jobs, driving prices down. It's one of the issues that the media works very hard to keep out of public discussions of illegal immigration in the US, and I suspect the European Union's rules about entering nations during the Brexit debates were likewise de-emphasized. Matt G. From howard at brazee.net Wed Nov 10 16:48:16 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 09:48:16 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths OT: In-Reply-To: References: <480602871.808879.1635524249417@webmail.mymagenta.at> <0u40ogpjbdnd0hrhu1uh4u1hibg0bbq8gu@4ax.com> <5f0bf839-55f9-261b-e50a-1e3c09323828@matija.com> <5D5FCEC4-A78C-49A7-89A2-0948AECB11A9@panix.com> Message-ID: There is another distinct incentive to make sure the people accept our lots. The pandemic messed this up and there is more discontent than there was before. > On Nov 10, 2021, at 9:35 AM, Matthew George wrote: > > Meanwhile, there is a distinct incentive to the elites to ensure there are > plenty of people competing for manual labor jobs, driving prices down. > > It's one of the issues that the media works very hard to keep out of public > discussions of illegal immigration in the US, and I suspect the European > Union's rules about entering nations during the Brexit debates were > likewise de-emphasized. > > Matt G. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to howard at brazee.net > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Nov 10 16:57:16 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 16:57:16 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Back online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Marc Wilson >From: "Harvey Fishman" >Gwynne, is your Internet connection wired, cable, or what? >Harvey >Gwynne: NBN wifi. That's my entire knowledge about it all. Do you have the "NBN Fixed Wireless" with an outdoor antenna? Gwynne: There's no outdoor antenna that I can see. I have a flat white box with blue lights on top, and a tall white box (the modem) with a green light on the front. I believe that my landline could be involved in some way. You do realise that I'm vastly incompetent, and abysmally ignorant about all this stuff, yes? I'm sorry, but I simply don't know. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Wed Nov 10 17:24:41 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:24:41 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Back online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200ooglcufjjkt484k5619i4385fre6g5b@4ax.com> On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 16:57:16 +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: >From: Marc Wilson > >>From: "Harvey Fishman" >>Gwynne, is your Internet connection wired, cable, or what? >>Harvey > >>Gwynne: NBN wifi. That's my entire knowledge about it all. > >Do you have the "NBN Fixed Wireless" with an outdoor antenna? > >Gwynne: There's no outdoor antenna that I can see. I have a >flat white box with blue lights on top, and a tall white box (the >modem) with a green light on the front. I believe that my landline >could be involved in some way. You do realise that I'm vastly >incompetent, and abysmally ignorant about all this stuff, yes? >I'm sorry, but I simply don't know. NBN seem to do both DSL and wireless broadband, where the latter is over a wireless link (possibly microwave, looking at the pics). If it comes over your landline, it's some form of DSL. -- Howard Hughes was able to afford the luxury of madness, like a man who not only thinks he is Napoleon but hires an army to prove it. - Ted Morgan From margdean56 at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 17:51:46 2021 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 10:51:46 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Iceland In-Reply-To: <0ndnogdu13s6bvhj1dm8c0asqv1h4ca5oh@4ax.com> References: <0ndnogdu13s6bvhj1dm8c0asqv1h4ca5oh@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 5:16 AM Marc Wilson wrote: > > Orkney is pretty windswept, which doesn't help. Isolated trees have > more trouble growing than forest trees, as the forest helps break up the > wind (anyone who has dived into a wood on a windy day knows sharply how > the wind force drops off as you go deeper in). > On a trip to Newfoundland I remember seeing what they call "tuckamore trees", which are trees that grow bent over because of constant wind--usually near the coast. --Margaret Dean > > >Trees have trouble growing at all, that far north. > > https://askinglot.com/open-detail/382688 > > The tree line is North of the Arctic Circle, which most of Iceland > isn't. > > Trees grow slowly, but they do grow. > > Boreal forest is the world's largest land biome. > > http://ibfra.org/about-boreal-forests/ > > -- > This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion > in it - John Adams > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to margdean56 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From margdean56 at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 17:56:37 2021 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 10:56:37 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Barrayaran oaths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 5:56 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Your heart is colder than Kyril Island! > > You're less use than a town clown. > > I'd rather kiss a Ghem than you! > Now we're edging over into straight "insult" territory. --Margaret Dean From rgmolpus at flash.net Wed Nov 10 18:32:29 2021 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard G. Molpus) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 18:32:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Barrayaran oaths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1582146813.407163.1636569149189@mail.yahoo.com> May Kyril Island melt before (insert event) happens!? 'Daughter dating a town clown! (Said when exasperated about something) ? "Smooth enough to steal face paint from a Ghem."? "Yuri's Scalp and both left toes!"? "As easily removed as Yuri's thumbnails." (that is, not at all...) "Who died and left you a campstool?" ? On Wednesday, November 10, 2021, 11:57:05 AM CST, Margaret Dean wrote: On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 5:56 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Your heart is colder than Kyril Island! > > You're less use than a town clown. > > I'd rather kiss a Ghem than you! > Now we're edging over into straight "insult" territory. --Margaret Dean ? -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From matt.msg at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 19:22:00 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:22:00 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Iceland In-Reply-To: References: <0ndnogdu13s6bvhj1dm8c0asqv1h4ca5oh@4ax.com> Message-ID: Ascension Island's Remarkable Ecology I also recall reading about a small island, barely more than a grassy rock, known to mariners, where the sole source of fresh water was the dew that collected and trickled down the single tree. When that tree eventually died, the entire ecology of the island changed dramatically, and most of the other plants that had been brought there died off; it ceased to be a destination for ships of the era, since it could no longer be used to replenish water supplies. I'm also reminded of Ursula K. Le Guin's "The Word for World is Forest" - once one of the islands was deforested, its ecology collapsed and storms washed all the topsoil out to sea. The forest was a stable state, but once destroyed it could not be re-established. Might artificial windbreaks be needed to help young trees establish themselves in Iceland? Matt G. From phoenix at mindstalk.net Wed Nov 10 19:31:50 2021 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:31:50 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unpopular truths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 12:21:12PM +0000, Marc Wilson wrote: > On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:27:23 -0500, Damien Sullivan > wrote: > > >I think Treebeard says the squirrel thing, of the old days. > > It's likely that Tolkien would have heard the saying, it's certainly > older than that. I was wrong, it's Elrond in Fellowship: "?The Barrow-wights we know by many names; and of the Old Forest many tales have been told: all that now remains is but an outlier of its northern march. Time was when a squirrel could go from tree to tree from what is now the Shire to Dunland west of Isengard." -xx- Damien X-) From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 22:32:44 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 16:32:44 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't know about Pennsylvania, but several states have laws that allows employers to pay less than minimum wage. The tips are considered to be part of the wage and not a gratuity. In several restaurants, like Waffle House in South Carolina, waiters and waitresses can make only $2.13 plus tips. On Tue, Nov 9, 2021, 8:54 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: WILLIAM A WENRICH > > I would just as soon do away with tipping. When I go to a restaurant, I > usually tip about 20% and if I get especially good service (which still > happens in spite of the staffing shortages) I tip 25%. > William A Wenrich > > Gwynne: We don't tip as much as the US does, and not in all the same > places. > I've always felt so guilty because one time when I was in the US I went to > get > my nails done - I'd had a few weeks in Alaska, and my nails really needed > attention. I'd arrived in Philadelphia to stay with friends and went to > get my > nails done and the poor lady did a really great job. And I paid, and > thanked > her, and sailed out - and I didn't find out until some time later that it > was > expected that you tip the nail lady. I wish I'd known. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 22:47:09 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 16:47:09 -0600 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT: L Calling all book pushers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was at a Star Trek convention in 1980 and we had one of the local news team out interviewing people. I remember how the reporter ended with, " People hanging out with Doctor Spock and Mr. McCoy. . ." On Tue, Nov 9, 2021, 11:11 AM brazee wrote: > > > > On Nov 9, 2021, at 9:55 AM, Sylvia McIvers > wrote: > > > > My favorite is the 'man on the street' interviews which show Americans > are > > super dumb about geography. How many interviews are cut because people > > know the answers? > > And how many people answer stupid questions with stupid answers? > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 23:16:25 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:16:25 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Back online In-Reply-To: <200ooglcufjjkt484k5619i4385fre6g5b@4ax.com> References: <200ooglcufjjkt484k5619i4385fre6g5b@4ax.com> Message-ID: A NBN antenna looks like a flattish box mounted outside the house. So I suspect that you do have an antenna. According to information I'm reading on my phone your antenna has a range of about 14 kilometers. There should be a transmission tower somewhere. I'm looking up this information on nbnco.com On Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 11:24 AM Marc Wilson wrote: > On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 16:57:16 +0000, Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > >From: Marc Wilson > > > >>From: "Harvey Fishman" > >>Gwynne, is your Internet connection wired, cable, or what? > >>Harvey > > > >>Gwynne: NBN wifi. That's my entire knowledge about it all. > > > >Do you have the "NBN Fixed Wireless" with an outdoor antenna? > > > >Gwynne: There's no outdoor antenna that I can see. I have a > >flat white box with blue lights on top, and a tall white box (the > >modem) with a green light on the front. I believe that my landline > >could be involved in some way. You do realise that I'm vastly > >incompetent, and abysmally ignorant about all this stuff, yes? > >I'm sorry, but I simply don't know. > > NBN seem to do both DSL and wireless broadband, where the latter is over > a wireless link (possibly microwave, looking at the pics). > > If it comes over your landline, it's some form of DSL. > -- > Howard Hughes was able to afford the luxury of madness, like a man who not > only thinks he is Napoleon > but hires an army to prove it. - Ted Morgan > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From wawenri at msn.com Thu Nov 11 17:38:02 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:38:02 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Elanor Message-ID: Please pray for Elanor. She had to go under general anesthetic for dental surgery this morning and is still abut ?out of it.? William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From kawyle at att.net Thu Nov 11 17:39:56 2021 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:39:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] OT: Elanor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1835371244.2505947.1636652396817@mail.yahoo.com> Praying for her and for you. Karen A. Wyle On Thursday, November 11, 2021, 12:38:15 PM EST, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: Please pray for Elanor. She had to go under general anesthetic for dental surgery this morning and is still abut ?out of it.? William A Wenrich ? *? ? A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Nov 11 18:21:16 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 18:21:16 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Iceland In-Reply-To: References: <0ndnogdu13s6bvhj1dm8c0asqv1h4ca5oh@4ax.com> Message-ID: <9nnqogd0tc0ikpjuas90dh6o01vrmr7u2o@4ax.com> On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 10:51:46 -0700, Margaret Dean wrote: >On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 5:16 AM Marc Wilson wrote: > >> >> Orkney is pretty windswept, which doesn't help. Isolated trees have >> more trouble growing than forest trees, as the forest helps break up the >> wind (anyone who has dived into a wood on a windy day knows sharply how >> the wind force drops off as you go deeper in). >> > >On a trip to Newfoundland I remember seeing what they call "tuckamore >trees", which are trees that grow bent over because of constant >wind--usually near the coast. > We're about 10 miles inland as the crow flies, and it's still obvious from trees which direction the prevailing wind blows. -- Everyone generalizes from one example. At least, I do. - Steven Brust From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 22:32:18 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:32:18 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Elanor In-Reply-To: <1835371244.2505947.1636652396817@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1835371244.2505947.1636652396817@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My thoughts are with her. Ray. On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 11:40 AM Karen A. Wyle wrote: > Praying for her and for you. > Karen A. Wyle > On Thursday, November 11, 2021, 12:38:15 PM EST, WILLIAM A WENRICH < > wawenri at msn.com> wrote: > > Please pray for Elanor. She had to go under general anesthetic for dental > surgery this morning and is still abut ?out of it.? > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From fishman at panix.com Fri Nov 12 00:07:56 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 00:07:56 +0000 Subject: [LMB] TIXIE time!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Tixie descends from the flyloft and settles in. Today is the seventy-third birthday of Bill Wenrich. Bill, for you we have a special trip to Cetaganda. You will be the guest of the haut Rian Degtiar, the Handmaiden of the Starcreche, the defacto current ruler of the Cetagandan female artisans that handcraft their future genome. You will meet the haut Fletchir Giaja, the Cetagandan Emperor. You will be escorted around the home world of the Empire and be feted with all the delicacies of the dozen worlds that comprise the Empire, and you will attend the funeral of the dowager Empress Lisbet. While there, you will meet Miles and Ivan, who are there as the official representatives of the Barrayaran Empire. From phoenix at mindstalk.net Fri Nov 12 00:26:19 2021 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 19:26:19 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 04:32:44PM -0600, Raymond Collins wrote: > I don't know about Pennsylvania, but several states have laws that allows > employers to pay less than minimum wage. The tips are considered to be > part of the wage and not a gratuity. In several restaurants, like Waffle > House in South Carolina, waiters and waitresses can make only $2.13 plus > tips. Though AIUI, if the tips don't bring the income up to normal minimum wage, the restaurant is supposed to make up the difference. From wawenri at msn.com Fri Nov 12 02:51:51 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 02:51:51 +0000 Subject: [LMB] TIXIE time!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you. I will do my best to appreciate it properly. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Harvey Fishman Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 5:07:56 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: [LMB] TIXIE time!!! The Tixie descends from the flyloft and settles in. Today is the seventy-third birthday of Bill Wenrich. Bill, for you we have a special trip to Cetaganda. You will be the guest of the haut Rian Degtiar, the Handmaiden of the Starcreche, the defacto current ruler of the Cetagandan female artisans that handcraft their future genome. You will meet the haut Fletchir Giaja, the Cetagandan Emperor. You will be escorted around the home world of the Empire and be feted with all the delicacies of the dozen worlds that comprise the Empire, and you will attend the funeral of the dowager Empress Lisbet. While there, you will meet Miles and Ivan, who are there as the official representatives of the Barrayaran Empire. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ca3b92c672014492f372508d9a5707f8e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637722724861207114%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=KORXXojfv2PFOrnwT8uA6%2BYnS%2BRqoVWpyXqIZ8XVRME%3D&reserved=0 From baur at chello.at Fri Nov 12 06:31:00 2021 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 07:31:00 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04fc2391-d894-1190-d042-383f4e1f9c67@chello.at> Am 12.11.2021 um 01:26 schrieb Damien Sullivan: > On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 04:32:44PM -0600, Raymond Collins wrote: >> I don't know about Pennsylvania, but several states have laws that allows >> employers to pay less than minimum wage. The tips are considered to be >> part of the wage and not a gratuity. In several restaurants, like Waffle >> House in South Carolina, waiters and waitresses can make only $2.13 plus >> tips. > > Though AIUI, if the tips don't bring the income up to normal minimum > wage, the restaurant is supposed to make up the difference. and that actually happens ..? servus markus -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 11:08:46 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 05:08:46 -0600 Subject: [LMB] TIXIE time!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Happy birthday William. May you have a thousand more. On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 8:52 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Thank you. I will do my best to appreciate it properly. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Harvey Fishman > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 5:07:56 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > Subject: [LMB] TIXIE time!!! > > The Tixie descends from the flyloft and settles in. Today is the > seventy-third birthday of Bill Wenrich. Bill, for you we have a special > trip to Cetaganda. You will be the guest of the haut Rian Degtiar, the > Handmaiden of the Starcreche, the defacto current ruler of the > Cetagandan female artisans that handcraft their future genome. You will > meet the haut Fletchir Giaja, the Cetagandan Emperor. You will be > escorted around the home world of the Empire and be feted with all the > delicacies of the dozen worlds that comprise the Empire, and you will > attend the funeral of the dowager Empress Lisbet. While there, you will > meet Miles and Ivan, who are there as the official representatives of > the Barrayaran Empire. > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ca3b92c672014492f372508d9a5707f8e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637722724861207114%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=KORXXojfv2PFOrnwT8uA6%2BYnS%2BRqoVWpyXqIZ8XVRME%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 11:24:07 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 05:24:07 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: <04fc2391-d894-1190-d042-383f4e1f9c67@chello.at> References: <04fc2391-d894-1190-d042-383f4e1f9c67@chello.at> Message-ID: Exactly. When the rules get complicated, it's easier to miss the scofflaws. Especially when you cut the budgets of the regulatory departments that monitor them. West Virginia is a prime example where a law, in that case to ensure coal miners have full lifetime coverage for 'Black lung' disease is often denied. And there is very little in the budget to contest each decision which is usually biased against the black lung sufferer. Useally they have to their own savings to contest the decisions against them. It's fucking disgusting how the West Virginian coal industry has subverted West Virginia's government for years. On Fri, Nov 12, 2021, 12:31 AM markus baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > Am 12.11.2021 um 01:26 schrieb Damien Sullivan: > > On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 04:32:44PM -0600, Raymond Collins wrote: > >> I don't know about Pennsylvania, but several states have laws that > allows > >> employers to pay less than minimum wage. The tips are considered to be > >> part of the wage and not a gratuity. In several restaurants, like > Waffle > >> House in South Carolina, waiters and waitresses can make only $2.13 plus > >> tips. > > > > Though AIUI, if the tips don't bring the income up to normal minimum > > wage, the restaurant is supposed to make up the difference. > > and that actually happens ..? > > servus > > markus > > > -- > markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg > schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 > a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at > austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E > > a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html > > "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From proto at panix.com Fri Nov 12 12:32:28 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 07:32:28 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: post pandemic social anxiety In-Reply-To: References: <04fc2391-d894-1190-d042-383f4e1f9c67@chello.at> Message-ID: > On Nov 12, 2021, at 6:24 AM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > Exactly. When the rules get complicated, it's easier to miss the > scofflaws. Especially when you cut the budgets of the regulatory > departments that monitor them. > West Virginia is a prime example where a law, in that case to ensure > coal miners have full lifetime coverage for 'Black lung' disease is often > denied. And there is very little in the budget to contest each decision > which is usually biased against the black lung sufferer. Useally they have > to their own savings to contest the decisions against them. It's fucking > disgusting how the West Virginian coal industry has subverted West > Virginia's government for years. I?ll stay mum here, lest this discussion veer into American Politricks. ? MD. MS. in Law Robert Lustig ?If there?s a label on the food, it?s a warning label. That means it has been processed. Real food doesn?t need a label.? From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Nov 12 15:57:08 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 15:57:08 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Elanor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: WILLIAM A WENRICH Please pray for Elanor. She had to go under general anesthetic for dental surgery this morning and is still abut ?out of it.? William A Wenrich Gwynne: You're both in my thoughts and prayers. From alzurite at gmail.com Sat Nov 13 16:31:57 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 11:31:57 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Elanor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How is Elanor doing now, William? namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 10:57 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: WILLIAM A WENRICH > > Please pray for Elanor. She had to go under general anesthetic for dental > surgery this morning and is still abut ?out of it.? > William A Wenrich > > Gwynne: You're both in my thoughts and prayers. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to azurite at azurite.ca > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From fishman at panix.com Sat Nov 13 21:52:02 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 21:52:02 +0000 Subject: [LMB] TIXIE Time!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Today is the Xth birthday of Fred Smith. X is an unknown quantity, but Happy Birthday Fred. For you we have arranged a complete circum-nexus trip; you will start at Earth and tunnel your way to Barrayar on a fast scout ship. There you will be feted by the Emperor Gregor and the Empress Laisa. Of course Count Miles and Countess Ekaterine will be there as well as Dowager Countess Cordelia, who made a special trip from Sergyar. The dinner will have been especially prepared by Ma Kosti, who came out of retirement for the occasion. Then it is on to Komarr and the Cetagandan Empire, where you will call at a number of their worlds and be introduced to the Emperor, Fletchir Giaja. Next, on to Jackson's Whole where you will be entertained at a number of the ruling Houses. A quick trip to Athos and Klein Station and numerous other small outposts throughout the Nexus. You will finally get to Ylla, where you will be the guest of Ivan and Tej. Then a final trip back to Barrayar and at last a quick trip back to Earth for which you are doubtless lonesome. Enjoy!!! From wawenri at msn.com Sat Nov 13 23:26:41 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 23:26:41 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Elanor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: She seems to be doing well. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Elizabeth Holden Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2021 9:31:57 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Elanor How is Elanor doing now, William? namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 10:57 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: WILLIAM A WENRICH > > Please pray for Elanor. She had to go under general anesthetic for dental > surgery this morning and is still abut ?out of it.? > William A Wenrich > > Gwynne: You're both in my thoughts and prayers. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to azurite at azurite.ca > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C10de83d8d7d9485b8a6d08d9a6c3299f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637724179414363602%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=A591YKaKvQdssnz4o30ebA9AUgJ89rT6HVZRvUVOOKw%3D&reserved=0 > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C10de83d8d7d9485b8a6d08d9a6c3299f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637724179414363602%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=A591YKaKvQdssnz4o30ebA9AUgJ89rT6HVZRvUVOOKw%3D&reserved=0 From saffronrose at me.com Sat Nov 13 23:35:28 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 15:35:28 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: Elanor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5CD50F16-FFC3-437A-9655-B40441DA2D98@me.com> What dental surgery? Wisdom teeth? A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala > On Nov 13, 2021, at 3:26 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > ?She seems to be doing well. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Elizabeth Holden > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2021 9:31:57 AM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. > Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Elanor > > How is Elanor doing now, William? > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > > >> On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 10:57 AM Gwynne Powell >> wrote: >> >> From: WILLIAM A WENRICH >> >> Please pray for Elanor. She had to go under general anesthetic for dental >> surgery this morning and is still abut ?out of it.? >> William A Wenrich >> >> Gwynne: You're both in my thoughts and prayers. >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to azurite at azurite.ca >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C10de83d8d7d9485b8a6d08d9a6c3299f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637724179414363602%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=A591YKaKvQdssnz4o30ebA9AUgJ89rT6HVZRvUVOOKw%3D&reserved=0 >> > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C10de83d8d7d9485b8a6d08d9a6c3299f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637724179414363602%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=A591YKaKvQdssnz4o30ebA9AUgJ89rT6HVZRvUVOOKw%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to saffronrose at me.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From listmail at gordonj.net Sun Nov 14 20:08:56 2021 From: listmail at gordonj.net (Gordon Jackson) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 20:08:56 -0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Iceland In-Reply-To: References: <0ndnogdu13s6bvhj1dm8c0asqv1h4ca5oh@4ax.com> Message-ID: <018701d7d993$7664dae0$632e90a0$@gordonj.net> During my Naval career I visited both the Auckland Islands and Campbell Island which are New Zealand sub Antarctic islands. Both are seriously remote places, and have seriously challenging weather patterns. They are also fascinating ecologically. I don't believe any of the Auckland Islands have ever been permanently inhabited, but at the time I went there Campbell Island hosted a team that maintained the meteorological station. Campbell Island is home to the official World's Loneliest Tree, a Sitka Spruce. The nearest tree to it is on Auckland Island 137 miles away. Campbell Island was also the destination of what was at the time (might still be) the world's longest flight over water by a single engine helicopter in 1992 when one of the meteorological team lost his arm to a shark and was evacuated to NZ. Cheers Gordon -----Original Message----- From: Lois-Bujold On Behalf Of Matthew George Sent: 10 November 2021 19:22 To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Iceland Ascension Island's Remarkable Ecology I also recall reading about a small island, barely more than a grassy rock, known to mariners, where the sole source of fresh water was the dew that collected and trickled down the single tree. When that tree eventually died, the entire ecology of the island changed dramatically, and most of the other plants that had been brought there died off; it ceased to be a destination for ships of the era, since it could no longer be used to replenish water supplies. I'm also reminded of Ursula K. Le Guin's "The Word for World is Forest" - once one of the islands was deforested, its ecology collapsed and storms washed all the topsoil out to sea. The forest was a stable state, but once destroyed it could not be re-established. Might artificial windbreaks be needed to help young trees establish themselves in Iceland? Matt G. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to listmail at gordonj.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Nov 15 12:40:45 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:40:45 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We see a narrow slice of Barrayaran history. In just over a century they went from being rediscovered by the Nexus to becoming a three-planet empire and one of the strongest Nexus powers. And, bit by bit, they are gradually modernising their society, in their own way. When you look at it, from feudalism and horses to spaceships in such a short time is pretty impressive. So where will they go from there? Will the empire be expanded? Will there be any more wars with Cetaganda? Will the Vor be abolished? Or will it be opened up to add more to the ranks? So... here's a few predictions: In time, the capital of the empire will move to Komarr. It's closer to the Nexus, has better facilities, and it's more central to the Empire. It also has financial resource that Barrayar lacks. Vorbarr Sultana and the Council of Counts will rule the planet, but no longer the whole empire. The Vor will be opened up to worthy proles, and expanded a great deal. In the end it will bring a lot less status, simply because there's so many more of them. Sergyar will become very cosmopolitan, with most of the population feeling few links to Barrayar. There'll be ongoing rumbles about seceding from the empire, but since Sergyar still lacks the resources to go it alone, and is too close to Jackson's Whole for comfort, they'll stay with the Empire. From mvanspanje at home.nl Mon Nov 15 12:59:18 2021 From: mvanspanje at home.nl (mieke) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:59:18 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And women will be complete humans. They will be in the army en there will be women-counts. And a woman-emperor. Op 15-11-2021 om 13:40 schreef Gwynne Powell: > We see a narrow slice of Barrayaran history. In just over a century they went from > being rediscovered by the Nexus to becoming a three-planet empire and one of > the strongest Nexus powers. And, bit by bit, they are gradually modernising their > society, in their own way. > > When you look at it, from feudalism and horses to spaceships in such a short time > is pretty impressive. > > So where will they go from there? > > Will the empire be expanded? Will there be any more wars with Cetaganda? > > Will the Vor be abolished? Or will it be opened up to add more to the ranks? > > So... here's a few predictions: > In time, the capital of the empire will move to Komarr. It's closer to the Nexus, > has better facilities, and it's more central to the Empire. It also has financial > resource that Barrayar lacks. Vorbarr Sultana and the Council of Counts will > rule the planet, but no longer the whole empire. > > The Vor will be opened up to worthy proles, and expanded a great deal. In > the end it will bring a lot less status, simply because there's so many more of > them. > > Sergyar will become very cosmopolitan, with most of the population feeling > few links to Barrayar. There'll be ongoing rumbles about seceding from the > empire, but since Sergyar still lacks the resources to go it alone, and is too > close to Jackson's Whole for comfort, they'll stay with the Empire. > > From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Nov 15 19:48:22 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 19:48:22 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:40:45 +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: > >We see a narrow slice of Barrayaran history. In just over a century they went from >being rediscovered by the Nexus to becoming a three-planet empire and one of >the strongest Nexus powers. And, bit by bit, they are gradually modernising their >society, in their own way. > >When you look at it, from feudalism and horses to spaceships in such a short time >is pretty impressive. Our timeline went from feudalism and horses to the Space Shuttle in about the same time - *without* the knowledge that it could be/had been done, and perhaps some seed tech. -- If you are lacking in one sense, your other senses become sharper to help compensate for that lack. That's why people with no sense of humor have a heightened sense of self-importance. From rgmolpus at flash.net Mon Nov 15 21:21:58 2021 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard G. Molpus) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 21:21:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] The Vorbarr Sultana Armsmen's Club [Fanfic] References: <1537965682.2020464.1637011318588.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1537965682.2020464.1637011318588@mail.yahoo.com> In my latest Story idea postIdeas that didn't go anywhere - Chapter 10 - RGmolpus - Vorkosigan Saga - Lois McMaster Bujold [Archive of Our Own] | | | | Ideas that didn't go anywhere - Chapter 10 - RGmolpus - Vorkosigan Saga ... Organization for Transformative Works An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works | | | I propose that the Armsmen and Senior staff in Count's Service form a social club, with Club building similar to the the Junior Ganymede Club in the Jeeves and Wooster? Stories.? Which suggests a question for everyone on the list: What to name it?? Which also suggests that loyal readers of herself's works might like to purchase a membership in the Club - as a Fandom item (similar the the Eye of Horus pins, and knitted Butterbugs of a few years' ago).? Might she approve? From pouncer at aol.com Mon Nov 15 21:48:11 2021 From: pouncer at aol.com (pouncer at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 21:48:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future References: <677854428.682364.1637012891864.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <677854428.682364.1637012891864@mail.yahoo.com> Gwynne Powell asks:??> Will the Vor be abolished? Or will it be opened up??> to add more to the ranks?? ?If there are certain roles or jobs or offices that?traditionally are only done by Vor, (without pay,as a freely given service by the caste -- much like?the Lakewalkers or Daughter's Order) ...? ?and there are now too few Vor to go around, then???there may be need for more Vor or a new Vor-like??rank or title. But would there be enough volunteers?to take on those duties -- not only for themselves?but in future encumbering their progeny??? From phoenix at mindstalk.net Tue Nov 16 00:25:32 2021 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 19:25:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 12:40:45PM +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: > Will the Vor be abolished? Or will it be opened up to add more to the ranks? The usual pattern on Earth has been to abolish aristocracy. Japan had weird stages. They abolished the samurai caste, but created a new peerage of the old ones; that then got scuppered by the Occupation. > Sergyar will become very cosmopolitan, with most of the population feeling > few links to Barrayar. There'll be ongoing rumbles about seceding from the > empire, but since Sergyar still lacks the resources to go it alone, and is too > close to Jackson's Whole for comfort, they'll stay with the Empire. Sergyar is sandwiched between Komarr and Escobar (much closer to Escobar), not particularly exposed to Jackson's Whole (the way the Hegen Hub is) Tel's Nexus map: https://archiveofourown.org/works/303922 From huntkc at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 01:03:40 2021 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 20:03:40 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 7:25 PM Damien Sullivan wrote: > On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 12:40:45PM +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Will the Vor be abolished? Or will it be opened up to add more to the > ranks? > > The usual pattern on Earth has been to abolish aristocracy. > > Japan had weird stages. They abolished the samurai caste, but created a > new peerage of the old ones; that then got scuppered by the Occupation. > > > Sergyar will become very cosmopolitan, with most of the population > feeling > > few links to Barrayar. There'll be ongoing rumbles about seceding from > the > > empire, but since Sergyar still lacks the resources to go it alone, and > is too > > close to Jackson's Whole for comfort, they'll stay with the Empire. > > Sergyar is sandwiched between Komarr and Escobar (much closer to > Escobar), not particularly exposed to Jackson's Whole (the way the Hegen > Hub is) > > Tel's Nexus map: https://archiveofourown.org/works/303922 > That map does not have information from Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen. The connection between Komarr and Rho Ceta and Sergyar is a bit more complex. Chapter 2: The multi-jump wormhole link to the nearest of the Cetagandan Empire?s eight primary worlds, Rho Ceta, had its terminus on the route between Komarr and Sergyar, closer to the former; therefore in a position to cut the route and the Barrayaran Empire off from Sergyar and everything that lay beyond it on that side. Which was why Komarr command held the jump-points militarily for several empty systems in, handing off about three-fourths of the way to the Rho Cetan command doing the same for their side. I can't really say how many jumps from Sergyar to Escobar, though it's at least 2. All we really have from Gentleman Jole is in chapter 4: "short chain of wormholes leading toward Escobar" Sergyar's worry isn't Jackson's Whole, it's Rho Ceta. From saffronrose at me.com Tue Nov 16 05:21:36 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 21:21:36 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Barrayaran oaths In-Reply-To: <1582146813.407163.1636569149189@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1582146813.407163.1636569149189@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F9FF0F6-9ACE-48D6-B0B6-0BD493710775@me.com> MOn Nov 10, 2021, at 10:32 AM, Richard G. Molpus wrote: > > "Smooth enough to steal face paint from a Ghem." > "Yuri's Scalp and both left toes!" Yeouch! Marina From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Nov 16 05:40:33 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 05:40:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: mieke And women will be complete humans. They will be in the army en there will be women-counts. And a woman-emperor. Gwynne: I thought about that, but if they bring in a law that the eldest child, of either/any gender becomes Count, the devious old sods will just make sure that the first baby out of the replicator is always male. Or they'll only have male children, so that there's no chance for a * gasp * woman to get the job. Besides, Count's choice outranks birth order, so they can always pick a male. I can see a few cases where a very progressive Count chooses a daughter, but I can't see it happening often. As for the military; according to GJ&RQ, women are doing full service in the military by that time - Oliver's aide certainly has the same career expectations as males. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 07:08:10 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 01:08:10 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Barrayaran oaths In-Reply-To: <4F9FF0F6-9ACE-48D6-B0B6-0BD493710775@me.com> References: <1582146813.407163.1636569149189@mail.yahoo.com> <4F9FF0F6-9ACE-48D6-B0B6-0BD493710775@me.com> Message-ID: "Slick enough to cheat a Jacksonian!" On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 11:21 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > MOn Nov 10, 2021, at 10:32 AM, Richard G. Molpus > wrote: > > > > "Smooth enough to steal face paint from a Ghem." > > "Yuri's Scalp and both left toes!" > > > Yeouch! > > Marina > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Nov 16 10:31:52 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 10:31:52 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some other interesting possibilities: The Haut announce that they've achieved their goal, and disappear to some isolated paradise of their own. The Ghem, released from their control, go crazy, invade everything within reach, are finally defeated on all sides (mostly by Barrayar, or a coalition led by Barrayar), and their empire disintegrates into a few multi-world coalitions. Most of the client worlds finally achieve freedom. Beta goes half-crazy trying to help them all achieve reasonable Nexus levels. A new wormhole opens up, linking Barrayar to Earth. This puts Barrayar on a high-traffic link, and brings in a lot more wealth. And problems. A new House rises up on Jackson's Whole and starts taking over all the others, working on world domination. (Sort of a financial version of Dorca.) From vanlook19 at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 15:13:19 2021 From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 17:13:19 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: <677854428.682364.1637012891864@mail.yahoo.com> References: <677854428.682364.1637012891864.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <677854428.682364.1637012891864@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This happened among the ancient Romans. The Vestal Virgins were originally limited to the patrician class. But the patricians weren't willing to yield up their daughters to the Order, when they could use them in political marriages. So the Order opened up to the equestrian class late in the Empire. BJ On Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 11:48 PM Pouncer via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > Gwynne Powell asks: > Will the Vor be abolished? Or will it be opened > up > to add more to the ranks? If there are certain roles or jobs or > offices that traditionally are only done by Vor, (without pay,as a freely > given service by the caste -- much like the Lakewalkers or Daughter's > Order) ... and there are now too few Vor to go around, then there may > be need for more Vor or a new Vor-like rank or title. But would there be > enough volunteers to take on those duties -- not only for themselves but in > future encumbering their progeny? > > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to vanlook19 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Wed Nov 17 13:04:30 2021 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 13:04:30 +0000 Subject: [LMB] ot: new audio edition of entire Discworld Message-ID: <3522d2da-4cd1-c357-6870-4edb3aa23818@mindspring.com> Narrated by Bill Nighy, Andy Serkis, & lots of others: ?https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/nov/16/bill-nighy-narrate-terry-pratchett-footnotes-new-discworld-recordings ? Jerrie From wawenri at msn.com Wed Nov 17 18:44:33 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 18:44:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Strange Idea Message-ID: Assuming ground sense originates in the brain using a part of the brain that is either unused or repurposed in farmers, what if a child was born blind but with an enormously powerful and detailed ground sense. (Even weirder if his or her parents weren't full Lakewalkers.) How would the child be treated and who could properly raise him/her. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Nov 18 12:50:43 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 12:50:43 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Calibre 5.x and deDRM In-Reply-To: <7d06b994-a0b3-8d0e-1fa6-44e01551d03b@allums.email> References: <84c8603a-a3ee-b649-4654-226163638141@allums.email> <7d06b994-a0b3-8d0e-1fa6-44e01551d03b@allums.email> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 07:53:47 -0500, Mark Allums wrote: > > >On 10/29/2021 7:17 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: >> On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:01:29 +0100, Marc Wilson >> wrote: > >>> >>> Ah- it was 7.1 I had. I might retry with 7.2.1, let's see what happens. >> >> So, I installed 5.31, and deDRM 7.2.1 - and it's still not converting >> the books. I'm stumped. I still have the sideways method, although >> it's slightly less convenient. > >KFX is currently unbreakable, and will likely be so for the forseeable >future. Amazon has created appx. forty DRM schemes (IIRC) and can >switch to an unused one at the drop of a hat. (I know, citation needed, >I read it on MobileRead forum or Apprentice Alf's blog, or something; >still, I believe it.) I'm not trying to convert KFX, but sideloaded files - using the Amazon download and transfer via USB options, which saves files as azw3. Still doesn't work. -- If you are rich and have everything you want, what reason do you have for being honest or virtuous. - Diderot From mark at allums.email Thu Nov 18 15:18:22 2021 From: mark at allums.email (Mark Allums) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 09:18:22 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Calibre 5.x and deDRM In-Reply-To: References: <84c8603a-a3ee-b649-4654-226163638141@allums.email> <7d06b994-a0b3-8d0e-1fa6-44e01551d03b@allums.email> Message-ID: <4f225b70-c749-be73-85f1-59ecf6a4eac8@allums.email> On 11/18/2021 6:50 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: >> > I'm not trying to convert KFX, but sideloaded files - using the Amazon > download and transfer via USB options, which saves files as azw3. > > Still doesn't work. Can't account for it. Works for me. Mark A. From wawenri at msn.com Thu Nov 18 19:21:14 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 19:21:14 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Wreck Message-ID: I had to take my car back for some further problems. The dealership has decided that problems with the motor and transmission mounts were just wear and tear and just happened to occur at the same time as the collision. Nothing that I can do about that, so an accident that happened while I was stopped at a light is going to cost me about $1,500. I'm glad I can keep a cushion against unpredictables. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From kawyle at att.net Thu Nov 18 19:24:08 2021 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 19:24:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] OT: Wreck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <543639310.1890002.1637263448533@mail.yahoo.com> Might a lawyer working on a contingency fee be willing to threaten the dealership with a lawsuit for some tort or other? Karen A. Wyle On Thursday, November 18, 2021, 02:21:29 PM EST, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: I had to take my car back for some further problems. The dealership has decided that problems with the motor and transmission mounts were just wear and tear and just happened to occur at the same time as the collision. Nothing that I can do about that, so an accident that happened while I was stopped at a light is going to cost me about $1,500. I'm glad I can keep a cushion against unpredictables. William A Wenrich ? *? ? A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Nov 18 22:27:00 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 16:27:00 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Wreck In-Reply-To: <543639310.1890002.1637263448533@mail.yahoo.com> References: <543639310.1890002.1637263448533@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I was in an accident back in 1984. I was driving a Datsun pickup truck and had no troubles before the accident. However after the accident and repairs, all sorts of problems cropped up like the transmission, electrical etc. I think having a accident adds decades of wear to and tear to a car in a instant. It might be a good idea to shop around for a new car. On Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 1:24 PM Karen A. Wyle wrote: > Might a lawyer working on a contingency fee be willing to threaten the > dealership with a lawsuit for some tort or other? > Karen A. Wyle On Thursday, November 18, 2021, 02:21:29 PM EST, WILLIAM > A WENRICH wrote: > > I had to take my car back for some further problems. The dealership has > decided that problems with the motor and transmission mounts were just wear > and tear and just happened to occur at the same time as the collision. > Nothing that I can do about that, so an accident that happened while I was > stopped at a light is going to cost me about $1,500. > I'm glad I can keep a cushion against unpredictables. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Nov 18 23:02:03 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 17:02:03 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: <677854428.682364.1637012891864.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <677854428.682364.1637012891864@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It strikes me that the only way to abolish the Vor class would be through rebellion of the plebeians sorta've like what happened in Russia. Of course a more gradual revolution would be the taxation of the Vors that would redistribute wealth, like what happened with the British nobility. I believe as outside political influence affects Barrayar's society so would it affect its politics. Making life interesting for the future Vor class. On Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 9:13 AM B Van Look wrote: > This happened among the ancient Romans. The Vestal Virgins were originally > limited to the patrician class. > But the patricians weren't willing to yield up their daughters to the > Order, when they could use them in political marriages. > So the Order opened up to the equestrian class late in the Empire. > > BJ > > On Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 11:48 PM Pouncer via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > Gwynne Powell asks: > Will the Vor be abolished? Or will it be opened > > up > to add more to the ranks? If there are certain roles or jobs or > > offices that traditionally are only done by Vor, (without pay,as a freely > > given service by the caste -- much like the Lakewalkers or Daughter's > > Order) ... and there are now too few Vor to go around, then there may > > be need for more Vor or a new Vor-like rank or title. But would there be > > enough volunteers to take on those duties -- not only for themselves but > in > > future encumbering their progeny? > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to vanlook19 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From litalex at gmail.com Thu Nov 18 23:16:33 2021 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 18:16:33 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: treatment of Covid-19 Message-ID: <5F21972F-D3CC-4216-B7DF-4407B8DE7DDF@gmail.com> Hello, I recall us talking about the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of the drug Ivermectin. I just came across this from the Economist today: Ivermectin may help covid-19 patients?but only those with worms https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/11/18/ivermectin-may-help-covid-19-patients-but-only-those-with-worms little Alex From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Nov 18 23:41:42 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 17:41:42 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In the future a Batan survey ship exploring a recently open worm hole stumbles on the ruins of a ancient colony that doesn't appear to be human. This opens up debate on the possibility of intelligent life "out there". Several government think tanks start to debate about first contact while others believe this alian civilization has long been extinct. Many papers are written along with a best selling novel. On Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 4:32 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Some other interesting possibilities: > > The Haut announce that they've achieved their goal, and disappear to > some isolated paradise of their own. The Ghem, released from their > control, go crazy, invade everything within reach, are finally defeated > on all sides (mostly by Barrayar, or a coalition led by Barrayar), and > their empire disintegrates into a few multi-world coalitions. Most of > the client worlds finally achieve freedom. Beta goes half-crazy trying > to help them all achieve reasonable Nexus levels. > > A new wormhole opens up, linking Barrayar to Earth. This puts > Barrayar on a high-traffic link, and brings in a lot more wealth. And > problems. > > A new House rises up on Jackson's Whole and starts taking over all > the others, working on world domination. (Sort of a financial version > of Dorca.) > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 01:16:53 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 19:16:53 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: <677854428.682364.1637012891864.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <677854428.682364.1637012891864@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: One reason the British nobility survived was by absorbing high-achieving plebians into the ranks. Until recently, someone who distinguished himself in the UK could get a title, which could be passed down to his or her heirs. Very few titles in the UK date back to much before the 1600s, and almost none back to the Conquest, AFAIK. On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 5:02 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > It strikes me that the only way to abolish the Vor class would be through > rebellion of the plebeians sorta've like what happened in Russia. Of course > a more gradual revolution would be the taxation of the Vors that would > redistribute wealth, like what happened with the British nobility. > I believe as outside political influence affects Barrayar's society so > would it affect its politics. Making life interesting for the future Vor > class. > > On Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 9:13 AM B Van Look wrote: > > > This happened among the ancient Romans. The Vestal Virgins were > originally > > limited to the patrician class. > > But the patricians weren't willing to yield up their daughters to the > > Order, when they could use them in political marriages. > > So the Order opened up to the equestrian class late in the Empire. > > > > BJ > > > > On Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 11:48 PM Pouncer via Lois-Bujold < > > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > Gwynne Powell asks: > Will the Vor be abolished? Or will it be opened > > > up > to add more to the ranks? If there are certain roles or jobs or > > > offices that traditionally are only done by Vor, (without pay,as a > freely > > > given service by the caste -- much like the Lakewalkers or Daughter's > > > Order) ... and there are now too few Vor to go around, then there > may > > > be need for more Vor or a new Vor-like rank or title. But would there > be > > > enough volunteers to take on those duties -- not only for themselves > but > > in > > > future encumbering their progeny? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to vanlook19 at gmail.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From sturmvogel66 at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 02:12:19 2021 From: sturmvogel66 at gmail.com (Jason Long) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 21:12:19 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: <677854428.682364.1637012891864.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <677854428.682364.1637012891864@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It was the money-grubbing Stuarts that began the debasement of the English nobility by diluting it with jumped-up jackanapes qualified only by their willingness to contribute their filthy lucre to their betters, creating the tradition followed by subsequent monarchs and governments. Nooo, contributing troops in support of the monarch's military campaigns, massacring rebellious peasants and free-holders, and acting as their hatchetmen wasn't good enough for the parvenu! They had to use the assets that they acquired through trade! Something that no true noble would countenance! On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 8:17 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > One reason the British nobility survived was by absorbing high-achieving > plebians into the ranks. Until recently, someone who distinguished himself > in the UK could get a title, which could be passed down to his or her > heirs. Very few titles in the UK date back to much before the 1600s, and > almost none back to the Conquest, AFAIK. > > On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 5:02 PM Raymond Collins > wrote: > > > It strikes me that the only way to abolish the Vor class would be through > > rebellion of the plebeians sorta've like what happened in Russia. Of > course > > a more gradual revolution would be the taxation of the Vors that would > > redistribute wealth, like what happened with the British nobility. > > I believe as outside political influence affects Barrayar's society so > > would it affect its politics. Making life interesting for the future Vor > > class. > > > > On Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 9:13 AM B Van Look wrote: > > > > > This happened among the ancient Romans. The Vestal Virgins were > > originally > > > limited to the patrician class. > > > But the patricians weren't willing to yield up their daughters to the > > > Order, when they could use them in political marriages. > > > So the Order opened up to the equestrian class late in the Empire. > > > > > > BJ > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 11:48 PM Pouncer via Lois-Bujold < > > > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Gwynne Powell asks: > Will the Vor be abolished? Or will it be > opened > > > > up > to add more to the ranks? If there are certain roles or jobs > or > > > > offices that traditionally are only done by Vor, (without pay,as a > > freely > > > > given service by the caste -- much like the Lakewalkers or Daughter's > > > > Order) ... and there are now too few Vor to go around, then there > > may > > > > be need for more Vor or a new Vor-like rank or title. But would > there > > be > > > > enough volunteers to take on those duties -- not only for themselves > > but > > > in > > > > future encumbering their progeny? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to vanlook19 at gmail.com > > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to sturmvogel66 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 03:02:59 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 21:02:59 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: treatment of Covid-19 In-Reply-To: <5F21972F-D3CC-4216-B7DF-4407B8DE7DDF@gmail.com> References: <5F21972F-D3CC-4216-B7DF-4407B8DE7DDF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well today, on the spur of the moment, while I was walking by the pharmacy of the grocery store I stopped and got the booster shot. No Ivermectin though. My worms helps me lose weight. ;) On Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 5:16 PM Alex Kwan wrote: > Hello, > > I recall us talking about the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of the drug > Ivermectin. > > I just came across this from the Economist today: > > Ivermectin may help covid-19 patients?but only those with worms > > https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/11/18/ivermectin-may-help-covid-19-patients-but-only-those-with-worms > > little Alex > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 03:06:45 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 21:06:45 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: <677854428.682364.1637012891864.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <677854428.682364.1637012891864@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Egads no! The fall of the nobility! What next? Giving actors knighthood? On Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 8:12 PM Jason Long wrote: > It was the money-grubbing Stuarts that began the debasement of the English > nobility by diluting it with jumped-up jackanapes qualified only by their > willingness to contribute their filthy lucre to their betters, creating the > tradition followed by subsequent monarchs and governments. Nooo, > contributing troops in support of the monarch's military campaigns, > massacring rebellious peasants and free-holders, and acting as their > hatchetmen wasn't good enough for the parvenu! They had to use the assets > that they acquired through trade! Something that no true noble would > countenance! > > On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 8:17 PM Eric Oppen > wrote: > > > One reason the British nobility survived was by absorbing high-achieving > > plebians into the ranks. Until recently, someone who distinguished > himself > > in the UK could get a title, which could be passed down to his or her > > heirs. Very few titles in the UK date back to much before the 1600s, and > > almost none back to the Conquest, AFAIK. > > > > On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 5:02 PM Raymond Collins > > wrote: > > > > > It strikes me that the only way to abolish the Vor class would be > through > > > rebellion of the plebeians sorta've like what happened in Russia. Of > > course > > > a more gradual revolution would be the taxation of the Vors that would > > > redistribute wealth, like what happened with the British nobility. > > > I believe as outside political influence affects Barrayar's society so > > > would it affect its politics. Making life interesting for the future > Vor > > > class. > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 9:13 AM B Van Look wrote: > > > > > > > This happened among the ancient Romans. The Vestal Virgins were > > > originally > > > > limited to the patrician class. > > > > But the patricians weren't willing to yield up their daughters to the > > > > Order, when they could use them in political marriages. > > > > So the Order opened up to the equestrian class late in the Empire. > > > > > > > > BJ > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 11:48 PM Pouncer via Lois-Bujold < > > > > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gwynne Powell asks: > Will the Vor be abolished? Or will it be > > opened > > > > > up > to add more to the ranks? If there are certain roles or > jobs > > or > > > > > offices that traditionally are only done by Vor, (without pay,as a > > > freely > > > > > given service by the caste -- much like the Lakewalkers or > Daughter's > > > > > Order) ... and there are now too few Vor to go around, then > there > > > may > > > > > be need for more Vor or a new Vor-like rank or title. But would > > there > > > be > > > > > enough volunteers to take on those duties -- not only for > themselves > > > but > > > > in > > > > > future encumbering their progeny? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to vanlook19 at gmail.com > > > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to sturmvogel66 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From proto at panix.com Fri Nov 19 10:08:10 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 05:08:10 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: <677854428.682364.1637012891864.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <677854428.682364.1637012891864@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <474D6690-A254-434B-9CA8-C09A345E4286@panix.com> > On Nov 18, 2021, at 6:02 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > It strikes me that the only way to abolish the Vor class would be through > rebellion of the plebeians sorta've like what happened in Russia. Of course > a more gradual revolution would be the taxation of the Vors that would > redistribute wealth, like what happened with the British nobility. > I believe as outside political influence affects Barrayar's society so > would it affect its politics. Making life interesting for the future Vor > class. Most of the Vor, in the later stages are not rich, but government service types, military and civil service types for which they have preference and expectations. Some of the high Vor are poor and we have rich proles and professional proles. The Georg Vorthys apevoided expectations, but operated at the penultimate level of Barrayan power as a consultant to the Emperor as did his wife, but there were several proles at the same level. ? The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret. ? Terry Pratchett, The Truth From proto at panix.com Fri Nov 19 10:12:47 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 05:12:47 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77C8C96B-95AC-4716-A637-649B94154D19@panix.com> > On Nov 18, 2021, at 6:41 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > In the future a Batan survey ship exploring a recently open worm hole > stumbles on the ruins of a ancient colony that doesn't appear to be human. > This opens up debate on the possibility of intelligent life "out there". > Several government think tanks start to debate about first contact while > others believe this alian civilization has long been extinct. Many papers > are written along with a best selling novel. The Pupeteers appear and offer a form of FTL that doesn?t require wormholes. Meanwhile the Kizen are expanding rapidly and have captured some cut off human worlds. ? The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret. ? Terry Pratchett, The Truth From lmb at matija.com Fri Nov 19 11:10:12 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:10:12 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: <77C8C96B-95AC-4716-A637-649B94154D19@panix.com> References: <77C8C96B-95AC-4716-A637-649B94154D19@panix.com> Message-ID: <492f6edf-56ea-7346-cd6f-7977480072be@matija.com> On 19/11/2021 10:12, WalterStuartBushell wrote: >> On Nov 18, 2021, at 6:41 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: >> >> In the future a Batan survey ship exploring a recently open worm hole >> stumbles on the ruins of a ancient colony that doesn't appear to be human. >> This opens up debate on the possibility of intelligent life "out there". >> Several government think tanks start to debate about first contact while >> others believe this alian civilization has long been extinct. Many papers >> are written along with a best selling novel. > The Pupeteers appear and offer a form of FTL that doesn?t require wormholes. > > Meanwhile the Kizen are expanding rapidly and have captured some cut off human > worlds. Did you misspell Kzinti? Or is there a some space opera about aliens called Kizen I don't know about? If it is Kzinti, wow that would be interesting in the "may you live in interesting times" sense. Having non-wormhole FTL (even just one or two ships) would play merry hell with the balance of power. Miles and/or Simon Illyan would have a ball disrupting the heck out of the nexus if they had even just one general products hull with a FTL installed. As for fighting the Kzinti, Earth first stopped them because earth had FTL and Kzinti did not (and subsequently because Kzinti tended to attack before they were ready). A Barrayaran (or Cetan) world that was invaded by a Kzinti long range (non-FTL) fleet would face interesting problems, particularly if the fleet got control-of or cut them off from the wormhole. I have no doubt that Kzinti would very quickly recognize the strategic importance of a wormhole. I wonder how gravity lance of Barrayar would interact with a gravitic drive the Kzinti use. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Nov 19 11:19:46 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:19:46 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Wreck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gwynne: I was in a serious accident, someone pulled out of a service station (gas station) right in front of me. Towing a trailer. There was oncoming traffic, so I couldn't go around him. I couldn't get behind the trailer without hitting the petrol pumps (gas pumps) so I had no choice; I hit him. I angled to hit his front axle rather than his passenger door, that was all the control I had. Neither of us were injured, but my car was written off. It was a good car, too - anything smaller or more plasticy would have crumpled to nothing. Looking back, it was simpler for the car to be written off than for repairs to drag on, and the car is never the same afterwards. But it wasn't fun. Oh, and it was on 9/9/99. Day of disaster. Just not the disaster I was expecting. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Nov 19 11:31:03 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:31:03 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Raymond Collins It strikes me that the only way to abolish the Vor class would be through rebellion of the plebeians sorta've like what happened in Russia. Of course a more gradual revolution would be the taxation of the Vors that would redistribute wealth, like what happened with the British nobility. I believe as outside political influence affects Barrayar's society so would it affect its politics. Making life interesting for the future Vor class. Gwynne: But the Vor are no longer the sole upper class, or wealthy. Many Vor are just ordinary middle-class. There's a few slightly different customs to differentiate them from the proles around them, but income and lifestyle are just the same, really. There are Counts, and some other wealthy Vor, but there's also more and more wealthy proles. They're marrying Vor maidens, so narrowing the wife pool even more, and pushing more Vor to marry proles. Simply going at it from the financial angle won't achieve much, from a social-change point of view. There's a lot of intermarrying going on, which will bring some changes. And of course Komarr is a complicating factor. If you're restructuring the taxes to hit the wealthy on Barrayar, what about the Komarrans? Can you register your business on Komarr, or put most of your savings there, and avoid Barrayaran taxes? But if you also tax the Komarran rich, worthy as the idea is, it'd be incendiary. I still think that just making more and more Vor is the way to go; keep on going until there's so many that it doesn't mean much any more. From proto at panix.com Fri Nov 19 11:36:08 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 06:36:08 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: <492f6edf-56ea-7346-cd6f-7977480072be@matija.com> References: <77C8C96B-95AC-4716-A637-649B94154D19@panix.com> <492f6edf-56ea-7346-cd6f-7977480072be@matija.com> Message-ID: <459BD53B-8C39-4170-B32D-267B92CB032F@panix.com> > On Nov 19, 2021, at 6:10 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Did you misspell Kzinti? Or is there a some space opera about aliens called Kizen I don?t know about? https://larryniven.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Races According to this it?s Kizn. As in ?Rin Tin Kzin?. ? It?s better to be approximately correct than completely wrong. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Nov 19 11:42:27 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:42:27 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: WalterStuartBushell The Pupeteers appear and offer a form of FTL that doesn?t require wormholes. Gwynne: I wonder if planets all over the Nexus are racing to invent a workable FTL drive. It really would be a game-changer. We have no idea how close or distant those planets really are; FTL drive would rewrite the maps, and a lot of the politics. It'd be fun to see what happens. From lmb at matija.com Fri Nov 19 11:50:46 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:50:46 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: <459BD53B-8C39-4170-B32D-267B92CB032F@panix.com> References: <77C8C96B-95AC-4716-A637-649B94154D19@panix.com> <492f6edf-56ea-7346-cd6f-7977480072be@matija.com> <459BD53B-8C39-4170-B32D-267B92CB032F@panix.com> Message-ID: <05f20598-988d-bfa5-9c0e-f4a75885c086@matija.com> On 19/11/2021 11:36, WalterStuartBushell wrote: >> On Nov 19, 2021, at 6:10 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: >> >> Did you misspell Kzinti? Or is there a some space opera about aliens called Kizen I don?t know about? > https://larryniven.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Races > > According to this it?s Kizn. As in ?Rin Tin Kzin?. Going one link deeper, to https://larryniven.fandom.com/wiki/Kzin the page starts: Quote:The Kzinti (singular Kzin) are a species of felinoid aliens known for their bloodthirsty and warlike disposition. (End Quote) So my usage (as I was referring to the whole species, not to any particular representative of it) was correct. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 15:02:36 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 09:02:36 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kind of like patricians in late-Republican Rome. By the time of Julius Caesar, while there were still some wealthy patricians, there were others (such as Lucius Cornelius Sulla, at least to start with) who were poor, and the only distinction between patrician and plebian was that patricians were eligible for certain priesthoods (such as the major flamenates) and could not serve as Tribunes. A lot of old patrician families were either extinct, or only continued by adoption. Claudius comments on this in *Claudius the God*, where he says proudly that the Claudii, a patrician family, are one of the few that have never had to adopt an heir. At least one patrician, Publius Claudius Pulcher, arranged to transfer to the plebian branch of his family specifically so that he could be a tribune. By late-Republican times, the tribunes wielded real power and had a lot of clout. On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 5:31 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Raymond Collins > > It strikes me that the only way to abolish the Vor class would be through > rebellion of the plebeians sorta've like what happened in Russia. Of course > a more gradual revolution would be the taxation of the Vors that would > redistribute wealth, like what happened with the British nobility. > I believe as outside political influence affects Barrayar's society so > would it affect its politics. Making life interesting for the future Vor > class. > > Gwynne: But the Vor are no longer the sole upper class, or wealthy. Many > Vor are just ordinary middle-class. There's a few slightly different > customs > to differentiate them from the proles around them, but income and lifestyle > are just the same, really. There are Counts, and some other wealthy Vor, > but there's also more and more wealthy proles. They're marrying Vor > maidens, > so narrowing the wife pool even more, and pushing more Vor to marry > proles. Simply going at it from the financial angle won't achieve much, > from > a social-change point of view. There's a lot of intermarrying going on, > which > will bring some changes. > > And of course Komarr is a complicating factor. If you're restructuring the > taxes to hit the wealthy on Barrayar, what about the Komarrans? Can you > register your business on Komarr, or put most of your savings there, and > avoid Barrayaran taxes? But if you also tax the Komarran rich, worthy as > the > idea is, it'd be incendiary. > > I still think that just making more and more Vor is the way to go; keep on > going until there's so many that it doesn't mean much any more. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From domelouann at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 16:32:39 2021 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 10:32:39 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 9:02 AM Eric Oppen wrote: > Kind of like patricians in late-Republican Rome. By the time of Julius > Caesar, while there were still some wealthy patricians, there were others > (such as Lucius Cornelius Sulla, at least to start with) who were poor, and > the only distinction between patrician and plebian was that patricians were > eligible for certain priesthoods (such as the major flamenates) and could > not serve as Tribunes. > Have you read Colleen McCullough's series of seven historical novels "Masters of Rome"? First two volumes are Marius and Sulla, then it goes to Julius Caesar for volume 3 and continues to the battle of Actium. From baur at chello.at Fri Nov 19 18:29:11 2021 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 19:29:11 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: <459BD53B-8C39-4170-B32D-267B92CB032F@panix.com> References: <77C8C96B-95AC-4716-A637-649B94154D19@panix.com> <492f6edf-56ea-7346-cd6f-7977480072be@matija.com> <459BD53B-8C39-4170-B32D-267B92CB032F@panix.com> Message-ID: Am 19.11.2021 um 12:36 schrieb WalterStuartBushell: > > >> On Nov 19, 2021, at 6:10 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: >> >> Did you misspell Kzinti? Or is there a some space opera about aliens called Kizen I don?t know about? > > https://larryniven.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Races > > According to this it?s Kizn. As in ?Rin Tin Kzin?. afaik: Kzin - singular Kzinti - plural Kzintosh - the "Kizinkind" (like Mankind) servus markus > ? > It?s better to be approximately correct than completely wrong. > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 23:22:35 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 17:22:35 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Wreck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ouch! I assume the other driver was at fault. A similar thing happened to me, but I was luckier being able to swerve out the way. My car at that time was a behemoth 74 Ford Galaxy. The most annoying thing about the near miss was that the guy was completely oblivious of the whole thing. On Fri, Nov 19, 2021, 5:19 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Gwynne: I was in a serious accident, someone pulled out of a service > station > (gas station) right in front of me. Towing a trailer. There was oncoming > traffic, > so I couldn't go around him. I couldn't get behind the trailer without > hitting > the petrol pumps (gas pumps) so I had no choice; I hit him. I angled to > hit his > front axle rather than his passenger door, that was all the control I had. > Neither of us were injured, but my car was written off. It was a good car, > too - > anything smaller or more plasticy would have crumpled to nothing. > > Looking back, it was simpler for the car to be written off than for > repairs to > drag on, and the car is never the same afterwards. But it wasn't fun. > > Oh, and it was on 9/9/99. Day of disaster. Just not the disaster I was > expecting. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 23:44:59 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 17:44:59 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: <77C8C96B-95AC-4716-A637-649B94154D19@panix.com> <492f6edf-56ea-7346-cd6f-7977480072be@matija.com> <459BD53B-8C39-4170-B32D-267B92CB032F@panix.com> Message-ID: They must be kizen cousins to the Kzinti. On Fri, Nov 19, 2021, 12:29 PM Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > Am 19.11.2021 um 12:36 schrieb WalterStuartBushell: > > > > > >> On Nov 19, 2021, at 6:10 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > >> > >> Did you misspell Kzinti? Or is there a some space opera about aliens > called Kizen I don?t know about? > > > > https://larryniven.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Races < > https://larryniven.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Races> > > > > According to this it?s Kizn. As in ?Rin Tin Kzin?. > > afaik: > Kzin - singular > Kzinti - plural > Kzintosh - the "Kizinkind" (like Mankind) > > servus > > markus > > > ? > > It?s better to be approximately correct than completely wrong. > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sat Nov 20 00:50:59 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 18:50:59 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Barrayar in the future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sure have! Piotr Vorkosigan would have found the Senate very familiar. On Fri, Nov 19, 2021, 10:32 AM Louann Miller wrote: > On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 9:02 AM Eric Oppen > wrote: > > > Kind of like patricians in late-Republican Rome. By the time of Julius > > Caesar, while there were still some wealthy patricians, there were others > > (such as Lucius Cornelius Sulla, at least to start with) who were poor, > and > > the only distinction between patrician and plebian was that patricians > were > > eligible for certain priesthoods (such as the major flamenates) and could > > not serve as Tribunes. > > > > Have you read Colleen McCullough's series of seven historical novels > "Masters of Rome"? First two volumes are Marius and Sulla, then it goes to > Julius Caesar for volume 3 and continues to the battle of Actium. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From wawenri at msn.com Sat Nov 20 14:15:04 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 14:15:04 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Wreck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Since I was stopped at a light and the driver who ran the red light was broadsided and knocked into my car, I was definitely not at fault. In NM, the penalty for driving without insurance is up to a $300 and up to 90 days in jail. Who is going to send a little old lady to jail (especially straight from the hospital)? If they can't pay for a minimum insurance policy, I doubt that they could pay the fine. From what I saw, her car was probably totaled so loss of registration is a non issue. Penalties are for people who can afford insurance Every weekday, I pick up Hazel and Anna from school, a round trip of more than an hour. More often than not I see an accident still blocking the road. Sometimes I see more than one. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Raymond Collins Sent: Friday, November 19, 2021 4:22:35 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Wreck Ouch! I assume the other driver was at fault. A similar thing happened to me, but I was luckier being able to swerve out the way. My car at that time was a behemoth 74 Ford Galaxy. The most annoying thing about the near miss was that the guy was completely oblivious of the whole thing. On Fri, Nov 19, 2021, 5:19 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Gwynne: I was in a serious accident, someone pulled out of a service > station > (gas station) right in front of me. Towing a trailer. There was oncoming > traffic, > so I couldn't go around him. I couldn't get behind the trailer without > hitting > the petrol pumps (gas pumps) so I had no choice; I hit him. I angled to > hit his > front axle rather than his passenger door, that was all the control I had. > Neither of us were injured, but my car was written off. It was a good car, > too - > anything smaller or more plasticy would have crumpled to nothing. > > Looking back, it was simpler for the car to be written off than for > repairs to > drag on, and the car is never the same afterwards. But it wasn't fun. > > Oh, and it was on 9/9/99. Day of disaster. Just not the disaster I was > expecting. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C8ffd930b2bca4749e2ad08d9abb386f7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637729609816760970%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=jEWF8hMf0IrVyDdhcyldL2r%2BEMUR8T8RWP2h9eCE0w4%3D&reserved=0 > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C8ffd930b2bca4749e2ad08d9abb386f7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637729609816770915%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=t0b268sKPMdIbGTsHtNWOz%2BAv3bifzcgtS5K9t%2F%2Bja8%3D&reserved=0 From howard at brazee.net Sun Nov 21 02:22:37 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 19:22:37 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Sumptuary Cetaganda? Message-ID: I wonder if there was any de facto sumptuary rules in Cetaganda. Did people emulate the Haut or Ghem? I was noticing how people used to dress up to go to ball games and to shop. Men and women would get their hair done multiple times per month. But when the wealthy and the poor can both afford the same clothing, we find other ways to differentiate the classes. Cetaganda is a society with distinct classes. Face paint doesn?t seem to be something that would be seen outside of certain venues. Or maybe I?m wrong here. Super long hair is like the super long fingernails that only the wealthy could afford to keep. But when nobody?s that poor?. I have seen people type and phone text with long fingernails. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 10:13:18 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 04:13:18 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Sumptuary Cetaganda? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I suspect there were dress codes between classes. Certain styles would be banned for the lower classes with, probably, draconian punishments for those who broke the rules. Not unlike the ban on wearing purple in ancient Rome. On Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 8:22 PM Howard Brazee wrote: > > I wonder if there was any de facto sumptuary rules in Cetaganda. Did > people emulate the Haut or Ghem? > > I was noticing how people used to dress up to go to ball games and to > shop. Men and women would get their hair done multiple times per month. > But when the wealthy and the poor can both afford the same clothing, we > find other ways to differentiate the classes. > > Cetaganda is a society with distinct classes. Face paint doesn?t seem to > be something that would be seen outside of certain venues. Or maybe I?m > wrong here. > > Super long hair is like the super long fingernails that only the wealthy > could afford to keep. But when nobody?s that poor?. I have seen people > type and phone text with long fingernails. > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Nov 21 13:43:48 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 13:43:48 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Sumptuary Cetaganda? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Howard Brazee I wonder if there was any de facto sumptuary rules in Cetaganda. Did people emulate the Haut or Ghem? I was noticing how people used to dress up to go to ball games and to shop. Men and women would get their hair done multiple times per month. But when the wealthy and the poor can both afford the same clothing, we find other ways to differentiate the classes. Cetaganda is a society with distinct classes. Face paint doesn?t seem to be something that would be seen outside of certain venues. Or maybe I?m wrong here. Super long hair is like the super long fingernails that only the wealthy could afford to keep. But when nobody?s that poor?. I have seen people type and phone text with long fingernails. Gwynne: I'm sure there's something. The Haut have a variety of clothing styles and colours for different situations, and perfumes, etc. Plus the bubbles, of course. The Ghem have face paint for males, and 'Ghem-' attached to their name, which suggests a lot of people aren't Ghem. We hear about 'servitor classes', use of clones, and servants, so there must be at least one level below Ghem. Possibly two; the lowest are slaves, maybe clones and possible selectively bred for certain tasks. Above them are 'ordinary' workers, struggling hard and hoping like crazy to earn the prize, the step up to Ghem rank (promote one or two every decade in each area, just enough to give hope to the others.) Lower levels, of course, would be limited to more ordinary and functional clothes. From wawenri at msn.com Sun Nov 21 14:43:50 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 14:43:50 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up Message-ID: A while ago I posted that the armorer on the set of ?Rust? had nit been in control of the guns as is usually the case on a movie set but, because of COVID restrictions, had left three gobs on a table outside. I was criticized because I got my original information from Daisy Cousens (sorry that for the misspelling, autocorrupt). To follow up, that information has been confirmed on local TV, the local newspaper, and national news. Standard practices on movie sets has been explained to me by my son Brian as well. Things are true, not because they fit a narrative or because of who reports them, but because they are part of objective reality. Please do not reply to this post either positively or negatively. I just wanted to inform. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From greg.hennessy at cox.net Sun Nov 21 19:04:19 2021 From: greg.hennessy at cox.net (Greg Hennessy) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 14:04:19 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77feaa07-86d8-6537-7f72-bf6a004fc508@cox.net> On 11/21/21 09:43, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > Please do not reply to this post either positively or negatively. I just wanted to inform. If you don't want people replying to the post, then don't post it. From greg.hennessy at cox.net Sun Nov 21 19:05:30 2021 From: greg.hennessy at cox.net (Greg Hennessy) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 14:05:30 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17842af7-61aa-6420-0051-dd6018c7ed24@cox.net> On 11/21/21 09:43, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > A while ago I posted that the armorer on the set of ?Rust? had nit been in control of the guns as is usually the case on a movie set but, because of COVID restrictions, had left three gobs on a table outside. What possible restriction due to COVID would cause three guns to be left on a table outside? Why is COVID being mentioned at all? Greg From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Nov 21 20:00:41 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 15:00:41 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: <77feaa07-86d8-6537-7f72-bf6a004fc508@cox.net> References: <77feaa07-86d8-6537-7f72-bf6a004fc508@cox.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 2:04 PM Greg Hennessy wrote: > > > On 11/21/21 09:43, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > > > Please do not reply to this post either positively or negatively. I just > wanted to inform. > > If you don't want people replying to the post, then don't post it. > > Clarifications are good. A follow-up clarification to a big kerfluffle with a request to not re-open the kerfluffle is reasonable. I got no complaints on this. Sylvia From lmb at matija.com Sun Nov 21 21:14:20 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 21:14:20 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 21/11/2021 14:43, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > A while ago I posted that the armorer on the set of ?Rust? had nit been in control of the guns as is usually the case on a movie set but, because of COVID restrictions, had left three gobs on a table outside. > I was criticized because I got my original information from Daisy Cousens (sorry that for the misspelling, autocorrupt). Here is the original claim (minus your "I will be attacked for this" rant) > I heard from Daisy Cousins that, because the production wanted to limit personal contact due to COVID, she wasn?t there. She set out the guns earlier in the morning and didn?t have control of them the entire time. That was why it was the assistant director and not the armorer who gave the gun to the actor. Well, I went back to read the reactions to what you posted, since your claim did not match what I remembered of the discussion. TLDR, William deliberately misreported the facts. Again. He didn't get particularly criticized for saying stuff he got from Cousens (though he predicted he would), the only person disputing his account of the situation pointed out that no other source attribute the careless handling of firearms to Covid precautions. And one other person said they had no idea who Cousens was until they googled her. No wonder William didn't want anybody to follow up his follow up. He really hates it when you point out he is lying. Here are the summaries of the messages I found (by looking for the subjects containing the word Shooting) Joe Polowin responded not to William's claim about the guns, but to W's claim "Now I expect some on list will say that since I heard it from Ms Cousins, who is not a member of the mainstream press, it must be wrong." Agnes Charrel-Bertillier mostly agrees with William, but points out she has no idea who Diasy Cousens is, so she has no way to judge her credibility. Joe Polowin confirms the part about the weapons being left out, but points out that his independent sources don't mention this happening because of Covid. Raymond Collins wonders about weapons rule on film sets in other countries. Patrick Vera writes a long discussion about the conditions on the set, does not mention William or his claims at all. Marc Willson wonders if the statement "it will rain tomorrow" has a truth value. Does not mention William. I respond to Marc, pointing out that when estimating a truth value of a prediction, one should take into account the track record of the source. I do not mention William. Eric Open counters with "Does 'two plus two equals four' stop being true...if David Duke says it?". Does not mention William. I point out to Eric that Marc's original question was about predictions of the future. No mention of William (NMoW) Marc Wilson points that in absence of other information, tomorrow is likely to be like today. NMoW Matthew George goes further into discussing "will it rain tomorrow" based on how likely the person is to know what they are takling about. NMoW Matthew George further comments on "Enemy of the people" by Ibsen. NMoW brazee comment's on Matthew Georges assertion thesis. NMoW Matthew George response to brazee NMoW brazee replies to Matthew George NMoW Matthew George replies to brazee NMoW Those are the objective facts, William. You just love misreporting them. And that is why people consider your track record and don't find your statements about "objective facts" credible until they check with independent sources. Anybody can go through the back messages, and do their own investigation. It is possible that I missed a message where William was criticized, but I don't think I did. Summarizing a discussion "I was right, you were wrong, don't reply to this message" is a dirty trick, particularly if one lies in their summary. And that's an objective fact. From wawenri at msn.com Sun Nov 21 23:48:12 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 23:48:12 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Quotes Message-ID: Here?s a couple from Flowers of Vashnoi that spoke to me. You can?t fix the past. Piotr, toward the end of his life, looked at our district and only saw how much better it was. All of the backbreaking, heartbreaking work he did cleaning up the messes after the war is taken for grant now, or mostly just forgotten. Instead, we look around and only see how much better it could be. And neither of us is wrong, exactly. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 02:59:41 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 21:59:41 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 4:14 PM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On 21/11/2021 14:43, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > A while ago I posted that the armorer on the set of ?Rust?... > I was > criticized because ... > > Here is the original claim (minus your "I will be attacked for this" rant) > (snip) > Well, I went back to read the reactions to what you posted, since your > claim did not match what I remembered of the discussion. > (very very much snippage) Holy smoke, Matija, that was a lot of work you did! Thank you. Sylvia From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Nov 22 08:42:49 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 08:42:49 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Greg Hennessy On 11/21/21 09:43, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Please do not reply to this post either positively or negatively. I just wanted to inform. If you don't want people replying to the post, then don't post it. Gwynne: A pre-emptive pizza call, perhaps, because he's sick of some people who'll play the man rather than the ball. From lmb at matija.com Mon Nov 22 10:11:38 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 10:11:38 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76e4a462-f900-e95a-e421-d27f32fea6b3@matija.com> On 22/11/2021 08:42, Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Greg Hennessy > > On 11/21/21 09:43, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >> Please do not reply to this post either positively or negatively. I just wanted to inform. > If you don't want people replying to the post, then don't post it. > > Gwynne: A pre-emptive pizza call, perhaps, because he's sick of some people > who'll play the man rather than the ball. Nah, more like "anybody who makes the ball move in a way I don't like, is doing it because they hate me". He predicted he would be attacked, then he wasn't attacked (even though only part of what he posted matched other reports), then he posted a summary saying that he was criticized and that he was proven right. Only he was neither attacked, nor proven wholly right, and posting evidence of his mis-statements is not playing the man. From jpolowin at hotmail.com Mon Nov 22 16:34:36 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:34:36 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gwynne Powell wrote: > Gwynne: A pre-emptive pizza call, perhaps, because he's sick of some people > who'll play the man rather than the ball. Even if that were the case, it is inappropriate to make a pizza call in the same message that one has added to a discussion with. Joel From loisaletafundis at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 16:51:29 2021 From: loisaletafundis at gmail.com (Lois Aleta Fundis) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 11:51:29 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I haven't made a pizza call yet. (I'm trying to remember if I ever have done so.) I'm making one now. I call "PIZZA" right now! On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 11:34 AM Joel Polowin wrote: > Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Gwynne: A pre-emptive pizza call, perhaps, because he's sick of some > people > > who'll play the man rather than the ball. > > Even if that were the case, it is inappropriate to make a pizza call in > the same message that one has added to a discussion with. > > Joel > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to loisaletafundis at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois Aleta Fundis loisaletafundis at gmail.com "No one you have ever been and no place you have ever gone ever leaves you. The new parts of you simply jump in the car and go along for the rest of the ride." -- Bruce Springsteen From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Mon Nov 22 18:06:42 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:06:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [LMB] PIZZA Re: OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I support Lois' call for pizza. On the subject of why pizza, 1. there are various interesting issues related to the tragic Rust shooting: 1) is it now reasonably technically possible to add all firearm effects after the fact to movies? (even from my basic knowledge of Adobe Premiere Pro, I would argue yes) 2) should therefore the use of any working guns (as opposed to non-firing props) be banned by law on movie sets? 3. What are reasonable and unreasonable risks to be taken when making a movie and how much should they be regulated and who should be responsible? 2. This discussion hasn't dealt with any of these issues but instead was a "he said/she said" with questionable sources. 3. Nothing's going to be settled on this at this point until it goes to court, so it's silly to keep arguing about it. 4. It's definitely OT and OT-3/OT-7. Alayne On Mon, 22 Nov 2021, Lois Aleta Fundis wrote: > I haven't made a pizza call yet. (I'm trying to remember if I ever have > done so.) > > I'm making one now. I call "PIZZA" right now! > > On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 11:34 AM Joel Polowin wrote: > >> Gwynne Powell wrote: >>> Gwynne: A pre-emptive pizza call, perhaps, because he's sick of some >> people >>> who'll play the man rather than the ball. >> >> Even if that were the case, it is inappropriate to make a pizza call in >> the same message that one has added to a discussion with. >> >> Joel >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to loisaletafundis at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> > > > -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Nov 22 18:46:33 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 18:46:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:34:36 +0000, Joel Polowin wrote: >Gwynne Powell wrote: >> Gwynne: A pre-emptive pizza call, perhaps, because he's sick of some people >> who'll play the man rather than the ball. > >Even if that were the case, it is inappropriate to make a pizza call in >the same message that one has added to a discussion with. +1 "ner ner and no backsies" should stop at primary school, where it belongs. -- "Nothing in the Constitution compels us to listen to or view any unwanted communication, whatever its merit. We categorically reject the argument that a vendor has a right under the Constitution or otherwise to send unwanted material into the home of another. If this prohibition operates to impede the flow of even valid ideas, the answer is that no one has a right to press even 'good' ideas on an unwilling recipient. The asserted right of a mailer, we repeat, stops at the outer boundary of every person's domain." - Chief Justice Burger, U.S. Supreme Court From wawenri at msn.com Mon Nov 22 20:30:27 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 20:30:27 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Another quote Message-ID: >From Knife Children: "Same jobs over and over, all have to be done again tomorrow or something dies? Despite the weather or the hurting, or, whatever. Yeah, I guess there are some parallels." While he was weighing this, his mouth kept moving without him. "Or maybe it's just called being a grownup." I think that we've lost something in the last hundred years or so since most jobs are not all that important. The military, first responders, doctors and nurses, some teachers, and people who take being a parent seriously come to mind. The average job, not so much. When I first started at Sandia, the most important thing was the mission, when I retired, it was governance any getting the paperwork done. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From agnes at charrel.net Mon Nov 22 22:17:38 2021 From: agnes at charrel.net (Agnes Charrel-Berthillier) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 14:17:38 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Another quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/22/21 12:30, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > When I first started at Sandia, the most important thing was the mission, when I retired, it was governance any getting the paperwork done. Let me guess, this sea change happened while you moved up the food chain and into roles with less doing and more managing? Agnes From fishman at panix.com Mon Nov 22 22:28:44 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 22:28:44 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Another quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William, when you worked at Sandia, did you work for Honeywell or for the United States Government? Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" To: "Dendarri List" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 11/22/2021 3:30:27 PM Subject: [LMB] Another quote >From Knife Children: > >"Same jobs over and over, all have to be done again tomorrow or something dies? Despite the weather or the hurting, or, whatever. Yeah, I guess there are some parallels." While he was weighing this, his mouth kept moving without him. "Or maybe it's just called being a grownup." > >I think that we've lost something in the last hundred years or so since most jobs are not all that important. The military, first responders, doctors and nurses, some teachers, and people who take being a parent seriously come to mind. The average job, not so much. >When I first started at Sandia, the most important thing was the mission, when I retired, it was governance any getting the paperwork done. > >William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From huntkc at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 22:30:27 2021 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:30:27 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Another quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 5:17 PM Agnes Charrel-Berthillier wrote: > > On 11/22/21 12:30, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > When I first started at Sandia, the most important thing was the > mission, when I retired, it was governance any getting the paperwork done. > > Let me guess, this sea change happened while you moved up the food chain > and into roles with less doing and more managing? > While he can speak for himself just fine, I will add my own note of agreement: that's the way things have been going with government jobs the last two decades. The nineties were far more relaxed than modern days, with far less paperwork and bureaucratic hoops. From wawenri at msn.com Tue Nov 23 01:32:54 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 01:32:54 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Another quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Actually, that is not the case. I was never in an official management position. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Agnes Charrel-Berthillier Sent: Monday, November 22, 2021 3:17:38 PM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: [LMB] Another quote On 11/22/21 12:30, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > When I first started at Sandia, the most important thing was the mission, when I retired, it was governance any getting the paperwork done. Let me guess, this sea change happened while you moved up the food chain and into roles with less doing and more managing? Agnes -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cc87fe491ea6347a1e69a08d9ae05ed06%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637732162737924847%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=wD%2Fqyp%2FCSzXWP2OlVg%2B018zp3PFJXcqBGtGUYk2mA1o%3D&reserved=0 From wawenri at msn.com Tue Nov 23 01:36:31 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 01:36:31 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Another quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I worked for AT&T/Western Electric, Martin Marietta, Lockheed Martin, and Honeywell. Tha changes started after AT&T. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Harvey Fishman Sent: Monday, November 22, 2021 3:28:44 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Another quote William, when you worked at Sandia, did you work for Honeywell or for the United States Government? Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" To: "Dendarri List" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 11/22/2021 3:30:27 PM Subject: [LMB] Another quote >From Knife Children: > >"Same jobs over and over, all have to be done again tomorrow or something dies? Despite the weather or the hurting, or, whatever. Yeah, I guess there are some parallels." While he was weighing this, his mouth kept moving without him. "Or maybe it's just called being a grownup." > >I think that we've lost something in the last hundred years or so since most jobs are not all that important. The military, first responders, doctors and nurses, some teachers, and people who take being a parent seriously come to mind. The average job, not so much. >When I first started at Sandia, the most important thing was the mission, when I retired, it was governance any getting the paperwork done. > >William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C2b202b003e634fb83b6008d9ae07751e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637732169319238560%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Wn3LWoXTws%2Fs5fSP7tHs9AuK%2BzClr7RwVltxOh3x9ew%3D&reserved=0 -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C2b202b003e634fb83b6008d9ae07751e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637732169319238560%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Wn3LWoXTws%2Fs5fSP7tHs9AuK%2BzClr7RwVltxOh3x9ew%3D&reserved=0 From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 03:27:21 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 21:27:21 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Let's change the subject. I got my booster shot and I feel I fell down the stairs got back up and fell down again. Did anyone get their Covid booster shot? On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 12:47 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:34:36 +0000, Joel Polowin > wrote: > > >Gwynne Powell wrote: > >> Gwynne: A pre-emptive pizza call, perhaps, because he's sick of some > people > >> who'll play the man rather than the ball. > > > >Even if that were the case, it is inappropriate to make a pizza call in > >the same message that one has added to a discussion with. > > +1 > > "ner ner and no backsies" should stop at primary school, where it > belongs. > -- > "Nothing in the Constitution compels us to listen to or view any unwanted > communication, > whatever its merit. We categorically reject the argument that a vendor > has a right under > the Constitution or otherwise to send unwanted material into the home of > another. > If this prohibition operates to impede the flow of even valid ideas, the > answer is that no one > has a right to press even 'good' ideas on an unwilling recipient. > The asserted right of a mailer, we repeat, stops at the outer boundary of > every person's domain." > - Chief Justice Burger, U.S. Supreme Court > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From litalex at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 03:38:06 2021 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 22:38:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2A96270E-B843-4D99-B22D-CD6EEB8A4146@gmail.com> Hello, > On Nov 22, 2021, at 22:27, Raymond Collins wrote: > > Let's change the subject. I got my booster shot and I feel I fell down the > stairs got back up and fell down again. Did anyone get their Covid booster > shot? I got it late October, ?cause I have an underlying condition (diabetes). I just went down the block to RiteAid (after I booked an appointment), waited a bit, and got the shot. little Alex From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 03:45:53 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 21:45:53 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Another quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, for the sake of the economy, I'd say dock workers and truck drivers are important right now. I'd also like to make a shout out to linemen (although they might be considered first responders). On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 7:36 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > I worked for AT&T/Western Electric, Martin Marietta, Lockheed Martin, and > Honeywell. Tha changes started after AT&T. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Harvey Fishman > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2021 3:28:44 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [LMB] Another quote > > William, when you worked at Sandia, did you work for Honeywell or for > the United States Government? > > Harvey > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" > To: "Dendarri List" > Bcc: fishman at panix.com > Sent: 11/22/2021 3:30:27 PM > Subject: [LMB] Another quote > > >From Knife Children: > > > >"Same jobs over and over, all have to be done again tomorrow or something > dies? Despite the weather or the hurting, or, whatever. Yeah, I guess there > are some parallels." While he was weighing this, his mouth kept moving > without him. "Or maybe it's just called being a grownup." > > > >I think that we've lost something in the last hundred years or so since > most jobs are not all that important. The military, first responders, > doctors and nurses, some teachers, and people who take being a parent > seriously come to mind. The average job, not so much. > >When I first started at Sandia, the most important thing was the mission, > when I retired, it was governance any getting the paperwork done. > > > >William A Wenrich > > > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > > > >-- > >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com > >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C2b202b003e634fb83b6008d9ae07751e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637732169319238560%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Wn3LWoXTws%2Fs5fSP7tHs9AuK%2BzClr7RwVltxOh3x9ew%3D&reserved=0 > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C2b202b003e634fb83b6008d9ae07751e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637732169319238560%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Wn3LWoXTws%2Fs5fSP7tHs9AuK%2BzClr7RwVltxOh3x9ew%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Tue Nov 23 03:56:49 2021 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 03:56:49 +0000 Subject: [LMB] ot: punny signs Message-ID: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac_1PZ5gAqU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac_1PZ5gAqU) ? Jerrie From fred.fredex at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 03:59:12 2021 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 22:59:12 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: <2A96270E-B843-4D99-B22D-CD6EEB8A4146@gmail.com> References: <2A96270E-B843-4D99-B22D-CD6EEB8A4146@gmail.com> Message-ID: Got mine 3-ish weeks ago. nothing but a sore spot on my arm, for a day or so, just like the first two shots. On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 10:38 PM Alex Kwan wrote: > Hello, > > > On Nov 22, 2021, at 22:27, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > > Let's change the subject. I got my booster shot and I feel I fell down > the > > stairs got back up and fell down again. Did anyone get their Covid > booster > > shot? > > I got it late October, ?cause I have an underlying condition (diabetes). I > just went down the block to RiteAid (after I booked an appointment), waited > a bit, and got the shot. > > little Alex > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 05:06:56 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 23:06:56 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: <2A96270E-B843-4D99-B22D-CD6EEB8A4146@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mine was spur of the moment in Hyvee. I went to pick up some meds and decided to get the shot. On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 9:59 PM Fred wrote: > Got mine 3-ish weeks ago. nothing but a sore spot on my arm, for a day or > so, just like the first two shots. > > > On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 10:38 PM Alex Kwan wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > > On Nov 22, 2021, at 22:27, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > > > > Let's change the subject. I got my booster shot and I feel I fell down > > the > > > stairs got back up and fell down again. Did anyone get their Covid > > booster > > > shot? > > > > I got it late October, ?cause I have an underlying condition (diabetes). > I > > just went down the block to RiteAid (after I booked an appointment), > waited > > a bit, and got the shot. > > > > little Alex > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 05:10:36 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 23:10:36 -0600 Subject: [LMB] ot: punny signs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I love it. My favorite is, "I'm pining for a good tree pun. I wish they were more poplar." There must be a very "Interesting" person living in Indian Hill Colorado. On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 9:57 PM wrote: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac_1PZ5gAqU ( > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac_1PZ5gAqU) > > Jerrie > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From wawenri at msn.com Tue Nov 23 05:19:29 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 05:19:29 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Question Message-ID: Was Edjer ADHD? William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Nov 23 05:54:45 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 05:54:45 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Raymond Collins Let's change the subject. I got my booster shot and I feel I fell down the stairs got back up and fell down again. Did anyone get their Covid booster shot? Gwynne: I'm getting one as soon as I'm eligible. And I'd just like to reach out to fellow hay-fever sufferers. It's Spring here, a really great allergy season for me. Sinuses running like a tap. Which means the back of my throat is constantly irritated. And I cough. Badly. A lot. At the moment, if you're out in public and you cough, people back away from you, and they LOOK at you. I went and got a COVID test, even though I KNEW I was negative, just so I have proof that I'm safe (Yes, the test was negative. As I knew it would be.) Don't even think about hay fever meds - they mostly work by thickening the mucus (ick term, really, and I apologise for that.) But thick mucus still gets to your throat, and makes you cough WAY WORSE. Oh, and coughing in a mask.... that has problems all its own. So, to my fellow sufferers, I feel your pain. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Nov 23 05:56:58 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 05:56:58 +0000 Subject: [LMB] ot: punny signs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com I love the signs! But I hold you fully responsible for all the time I just spent looking at several sign compilations on Youtube. You really should have given a time-sink warning! From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 06:16:59 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 00:16:59 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah, Covid Paranoia., I can understand that. Early this month I went to the movie theater for the first time in over two years to watch a movie (the latest James Bond. I recommend it) a woman two rows down kept having a coughing fit periodically. A rational part of me didn't think she had Covid, the pollen count was high that day. Luckily for my neurosis I had my mask handy so I wore that for the rest of the movie. Enjoyed the movie. Saw "Dune" two weeks later and loved it. On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 11:54 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Raymond Collins > > Let's change the subject. I got my booster shot and I feel I fell down the > stairs got back up and fell down again. Did anyone get their Covid booster > shot? > > Gwynne: I'm getting one as soon as I'm eligible. > > And I'd just like to reach out to fellow hay-fever sufferers. It's Spring > here, > a really great allergy season for me. Sinuses running like a tap. Which > means > the back of my throat is constantly irritated. And I cough. Badly. A lot. > > At the moment, if you're out in public and you cough, people back away from > you, and they LOOK at you. I went and got a COVID test, even though I KNEW > I was negative, just so I have proof that I'm safe (Yes, the test was > negative. As > I knew it would be.) > > Don't even think about hay fever meds - they mostly work by thickening the > mucus (ick term, really, and I apologise for that.) But thick mucus still > gets > to your throat, and makes you cough WAY WORSE. Oh, and coughing in a > mask.... > that has problems all its own. > > So, to my fellow sufferers, I feel your pain. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 06:21:56 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 00:21:56 -0600 Subject: [LMB] ot: punny signs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: He must be punished. Speaking of bad tree puns, there was an archer sniper whose mission was to climb up a tree and assassinate a prince who was riding by. His mission failed because his bough broke. ;) On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 11:57 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com > > I love the signs! But I hold you fully responsible for all the time I > just spent > looking at several sign compilations on Youtube. You really should have > given > a time-sink warning! > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 06:42:44 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 00:42:44 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: <2A96270E-B843-4D99-B22D-CD6EEB8A4146@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm eligible, but right at the moment, I'm fighting off what feels like a chest cold. My lungs itch and I'm constantly coughing. On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 11:07 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > Mine was spur of the moment in Hyvee. I went to pick up some meds and > decided to get the shot. > > On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 9:59 PM Fred wrote: > > > Got mine 3-ish weeks ago. nothing but a sore spot on my arm, for a day or > > so, just like the first two shots. > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 10:38 PM Alex Kwan wrote: > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > On Nov 22, 2021, at 22:27, Raymond Collins > wrote: > > > > > > > > Let's change the subject. I got my booster shot and I feel I fell > down > > > the > > > > stairs got back up and fell down again. Did anyone get their Covid > > > booster > > > > shot? > > > > > > I got it late October, ?cause I have an underlying condition > (diabetes). > > I > > > just went down the block to RiteAid (after I booked an appointment), > > waited > > > a bit, and got the shot. > > > > > > little Alex > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 09:19:10 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 03:19:10 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: <2A96270E-B843-4D99-B22D-CD6EEB8A4146@gmail.com> Message-ID: I hope you get better Eric. Drink plenty of fluids, stay warm, and get better. On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 12:43 AM Eric Oppen wrote: > I'm eligible, but right at the moment, I'm fighting off what feels like a > chest cold. My lungs itch and I'm constantly coughing. > > On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 11:07 PM Raymond Collins > wrote: > > > Mine was spur of the moment in Hyvee. I went to pick up some meds and > > decided to get the shot. > > > > On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 9:59 PM Fred wrote: > > > > > Got mine 3-ish weeks ago. nothing but a sore spot on my arm, for a day > or > > > so, just like the first two shots. > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 10:38 PM Alex Kwan wrote: > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > On Nov 22, 2021, at 22:27, Raymond Collins > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Let's change the subject. I got my booster shot and I feel I fell > > down > > > > the > > > > > stairs got back up and fell down again. Did anyone get their Covid > > > > booster > > > > > shot? > > > > > > > > I got it late October, ?cause I have an underlying condition > > (diabetes). > > > I > > > > just went down the block to RiteAid (after I booked an appointment), > > > waited > > > > a bit, and got the shot. > > > > > > > > little Alex > > > > -- > > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From lmb at matija.com Tue Nov 23 12:30:56 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 12:30:56 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Another quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93a2c476-9a07-d404-f973-3e2eb5ddbeae@matija.com> In addition to all the first responders, also dock workers, truck drivers (long and short route), also sailors. People who keep the water systems working, people who keep the power systems working (that includes both linemen, people working in the power plants, and people managing the stability of the power network)? and people who keep communications lines working (phone and internet, few do one without the other, these days). People who keep the data centers running, and people who are on-call to maintain the stability of services in those data centers. People who transport and deliver groceries, people who cook and deliver takeout food. Oh, and doctors/nurses who need not be first responders to be essential. I probably missed one or more categories of essential workers. Some are more visible than others. On 23/11/2021 03:45, Raymond Collins wrote: > Well, for the sake of the economy, I'd say dock workers and truck drivers > are important right now. I'd also like to make a shout out to linemen > (although they might be considered first responders). > > On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 7:36 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > >> I worked for AT&T/Western Electric, Martin Marietta, Lockheed Martin, and >> Honeywell. Tha changes started after AT&T. >> >> William A Wenrich >> >> * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of >> Harvey Fishman >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2021 3:28:44 PM >> To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < >> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> >> Subject: Re: [LMB] Another quote >> >> William, when you worked at Sandia, did you work for Honeywell or for >> the United States Government? >> >> Harvey >> >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" >> To: "Dendarri List" >> Bcc: fishman at panix.com >> Sent: 11/22/2021 3:30:27 PM >> Subject: [LMB] Another quote >> >> >From Knife Children: >>> "Same jobs over and over, all have to be done again tomorrow or something >> dies? Despite the weather or the hurting, or, whatever. Yeah, I guess there >> are some parallels." While he was weighing this, his mouth kept moving >> without him. "Or maybe it's just called being a grownup." >>> I think that we've lost something in the last hundred years or so since >> most jobs are not all that important. The military, first responders, >> doctors and nurses, some teachers, and people who take being a parent >> seriously come to mind. The average job, not so much. >>> When I first started at Sandia, the most important thing was the mission, >> when I retired, it was governance any getting the paperwork done. >>> William A Wenrich >>> >>> * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. >>> >>> -- >>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>> >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C2b202b003e634fb83b6008d9ae07751e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637732169319238560%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Wn3LWoXTws%2Fs5fSP7tHs9AuK%2BzClr7RwVltxOh3x9ew%3D&reserved=0 >> >> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C2b202b003e634fb83b6008d9ae07751e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637732169319238560%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Wn3LWoXTws%2Fs5fSP7tHs9AuK%2BzClr7RwVltxOh3x9ew%3D&reserved=0 >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Tue Nov 23 13:06:01 2021 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 13:06:01 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up Message-ID: <46f7383a-90e7-f5ed-b128-87fe9263e358@mindspring.com> We got our boosters last week (to be sure to be safe for Thanksgiving).? I had a sore arm for a few days.? Then my loving spouse shared his cold (sneeze, sniff, cough), but that's pretty much over now. ? Jerrie From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Tue Nov 23 13:08:13 2021 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 13:08:13 +0000 Subject: [LMB] ot: punny signs Message-ID: <256df0bd-e95c-86c9-e231-69e94f5b2ba5@mindspring.com> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac_1PZ5gAqU ? Tee hee hee.? Some of these were so vile, they made the lawyerspouse cringe.? Any day I can make a lawyer cringe is a good day. ? :) ? Jerrie From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Tue Nov 23 13:13:34 2021 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 13:13:34 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up Message-ID: <839f98f4-f42d-815e-46cb-ad2cfac8105a@mindspring.com> Gwynne's allergies are irritating her throat and making her cough badly. ? As if that weren't enough, Gwynne forgot to mention another peril for ladies of a certain age caught coughing in public, that of wetting one's pants.? If I have a split second of warning, I always brace in the 3rd position [one foot jammed perpendicular to the middle of the other one], just in case. ? Then there's coughing at the wrong angle and pulling rib or other muscles at unfortunate angles, just to make your days extra special. ? Jerrie From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Nov 23 14:17:23 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 14:17:23 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: WILLIAM A WENRICH Was Edjer ADHD? William A Wenrich Gwynne: That was my first guess, he seems to have displayed all of the traits. From fred.fredex at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 14:49:34 2021 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:49:34 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: <2A96270E-B843-4D99-B22D-CD6EEB8A4146@gmail.com> Message-ID: and if you haven't, yet, please go get tested. On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 4:19 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > I hope you get better Eric. Drink plenty of fluids, stay warm, and get > better. > > On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 12:43 AM Eric Oppen wrote: > > > I'm eligible, but right at the moment, I'm fighting off what feels like a > > chest cold. My lungs itch and I'm constantly coughing. > > > > On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 11:07 PM Raymond Collins > > wrote: > > > > > Mine was spur of the moment in Hyvee. I went to pick up some meds and > > > decided to get the shot. > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 9:59 PM Fred wrote: > > > > > > > Got mine 3-ish weeks ago. nothing but a sore spot on my arm, for a > day > > or > > > > so, just like the first two shots. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 10:38 PM Alex Kwan > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 22, 2021, at 22:27, Raymond Collins > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's change the subject. I got my booster shot and I feel I fell > > > down > > > > > the > > > > > > stairs got back up and fell down again. Did anyone get their > Covid > > > > > booster > > > > > > shot? > > > > > > > > > > I got it late October, ?cause I have an underlying condition > > > (diabetes). > > > > I > > > > > just went down the block to RiteAid (after I booked an > appointment), > > > > waited > > > > > a bit, and got the shot. > > > > > > > > > > little Alex > > > > > -- > > > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > > > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From matt.msg at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 16:16:07 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 11:16:07 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Real-world diagnoses are notoriously complicated and subject to individual bias. Given how little we know of Edjer, we can't even begin to guess what any given medical practitioner might decide. Some children are very active. Some have very poor impulse control. Matt "the way of kids" G. From domelouann at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 17:04:35 2021 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 11:04:35 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 12:17 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > Yeah, Covid Paranoia., I can understand that. Last weekend I did local pickup on an Ebay sort of purchase. The lady took pains to tell me that while nobody had covid, she was fully vaccinated, she would answer the door in a mask and hand out my purchase because her small kids had strep throat. I complimented her on her consideration and good sense. I made sure that I wore a mask too, and I had clorox wipes with me to wipe down the furniture before it went in my car. The US custom, at least has always been 'breathe out germs all you like' with case by case exceptions for gravely ill people like cancer patients. I hope the custom switches permanently to "If I know I'm sick, I should behave responsibly." Not just with Covid, but with most things. > From kcollett at hamilton.edu Tue Nov 23 17:08:42 2021 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Kathy Collett) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 12:08:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Question from Knife Children In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0BAD0208-9BC7-4C42-8980-03229AEDE5E2@hamilton.edu> On Nov 23, 2021, at 11:16 AM, Matthew George responded to the question ?Does Edjer have ADHD": > > Real-world diagnoses are notoriously complicated and subject to individual > bias. Given how little we know of Edjer, we can't even begin to guess what > any given medical practitioner might decide. Some children are very > active. Some have very poor impulse control. Yeah. Edjer?s actions as reported look like a fairly severe version of what we call ADHD, but could also be oppositional defiant disorder or various other things. And of course, pretty much every symptom of ADHD is normal in itself ? just not necessarily at that age or in that context. Katherine From maireg83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 19:23:02 2021 From: maireg83 at gmail.com (Sue Nicholson) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:23:02 +1300 Subject: [LMB] Another quote In-Reply-To: <93a2c476-9a07-d404-f973-3e2eb5ddbeae@matija.com> References: <93a2c476-9a07-d404-f973-3e2eb5ddbeae@matija.com> Message-ID: Funnily enough none of these seem to be in the higher paid categories - what does that say about our societal priorities? SueN On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 at 01:31, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > In addition to all the first responders, also dock workers, truck > drivers (long and short route), also sailors. > > People who keep the water systems working, people who keep the power > systems working (that includes both linemen, people working in the power > plants, and people managing the stability of the power network) and > people who keep communications lines working (phone and internet, few do > one without the other, these days). > > People who keep the data centers running, and people who are on-call to > maintain the stability of services in those data centers. > > People who transport and deliver groceries, people who cook and deliver > takeout food. > > Oh, and doctors/nurses who need not be first responders to be essential. > > I probably missed one or more categories of essential workers. Some are > more visible than others. > > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 22:05:10 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:05:10 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Another quote In-Reply-To: References: <93a2c476-9a07-d404-f973-3e2eb5ddbeae@matija.com> Message-ID: One of the reasons there is a truck driver shortage is because driving a truck these days is not as lucrative as it used to be. Especially when a trucker has to wait for a load he's making no money or if he has to drive a long distance to pickup a load. Also many truck transport firms are shifting toward owner operators instead of maintaining a fleet because it's cheaper for them. On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 1:23 PM Sue Nicholson wrote: > Funnily enough none of these seem to be in the higher paid categories - > what does that say about our societal priorities? > SueN > > On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 at 01:31, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > In addition to all the first responders, also dock workers, truck > > drivers (long and short route), also sailors. > > > > People who keep the water systems working, people who keep the power > > systems working (that includes both linemen, people working in the power > > plants, and people managing the stability of the power network) and > > people who keep communications lines working (phone and internet, few do > > one without the other, these days). > > > > People who keep the data centers running, and people who are on-call to > > maintain the stability of services in those data centers. > > > > People who transport and deliver groceries, people who cook and deliver > > takeout food. > > > > Oh, and doctors/nurses who need not be first responders to be essential. > > > > I probably missed one or more categories of essential workers. Some are > > more visible than others. > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 23:31:54 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 18:31:54 -0500 Subject: [LMB] ot: punny signs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 10:57 PM wrote: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac_1PZ5gAqU ( > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac_1PZ5gAqU) > > Jerrie > oy. oy oy oy. I rate this 5 groans. From rgmolpus at flash.net Tue Nov 23 23:38:40 2021 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard G. Molpus) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 23:38:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Another quote In-Reply-To: References: <93a2c476-9a07-d404-f973-3e2eb5ddbeae@matija.com> Message-ID: <1968477568.4917329.1637710720533@mail.yahoo.com> The recent law changes in California, that basically outlaw independent employment, also have a large impact. Owner/operators are under great pressure to change to a sole contract status with only one carrier, to get the benefit package the State wants (and the tax oversight the state REALLY wants). This pressure, along with the cruddy contracts the trucking companies are offering, is reducing the number of truckers who are willing to work in California. why take a contract in Cali, when loads in other state are better paying. and you can really be your own boss? I bet one of the major uses of Jackson's whole is as a registration center for Independent Space freighters; Few taxes (fees), few regulations on staffing; little regulation. A planet that tries to force spacers to abide by their laws, away from their system; probably finds itself semi-isolated as the independent (and some Trading fleets) decide to stay away and avoid problems caused by their Jacksonian registration.? On Tuesday, November 23, 2021, 04:05:42 PM CST, Raymond Collins wrote: One of the reasons there is a truck driver shortage is because driving a truck these days is not as lucrative as it used to be. Especially when a trucker has to wait for a load he's making no money or? if he has to drive a long distance to pickup a load. Also many truck transport firms are shifting toward owner operators instead of maintaining a fleet because it's cheaper for them. On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 1:23 PM Sue Nicholson wrote: > Funnily enough none of these seem to be in the higher paid categories - > what does that say about our societal priorities? > SueN > > On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 at 01:31, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > In addition to all the first responders, also dock workers, truck > > drivers (long and short route), also sailors. > > > > People who keep the water systems working, people who keep the power > > systems working (that includes both linemen, people working in the power > > plants, and people managing the stability of the power network)? and > > people who keep communications lines working (phone and internet, few do > > one without the other, these days). > > > > People who keep the data centers running, and people who are on-call to > > maintain the stability of services in those data centers. > > > > People who transport and deliver groceries, people who cook and deliver > > takeout food. > > > > Oh, and doctors/nurses who need not be first responders to be essential. > > > > I probably missed one or more categories of essential workers. Some are > > more visible than others. > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Nov 24 01:19:39 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 01:19:39 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Gwynne's allergies are irritating her throat and making her cough badly. As if that weren't enough, Gwynne forgot to mention another peril for ladies of a certain age caught coughing in public, that of wetting one's pants.? If I have a split second of warning, I always brace in the 3rd position [one foot jammed perpendicular to the middle of the other one], just in case. Then there's coughing at the wrong angle and pulling rib or other muscles at unfortunate angles, just to make your days extra special. Jerrie Gwynne: Ah, yes, the little joys and challenges that make sneezing season so much fun. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Nov 24 01:29:38 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 01:29:38 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Question from Knife Children In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Kathy Collett Yeah. Edjer?s actions as reported look like a fairly severe version of what we call ADHD, but could also be oppositional defiant disorder or various other things. And of course, pretty much every symptom of ADHD is normal in itself ? just not necessarily at that age or in that context. Katherine Gwynne: That's true. His reported behaviours certainly seem to go beyond just being spoilt, there are elements of compulsion to his behaviours and extreme impulse control. Possibly ODD, but from the small amount of data we have his behaviours seem to be focussed differently; the disobedience is a byproduct rather than the main goal, to put it in very general terms. If you compare his behaviours with his older brother, both of them treat Lily with disrespect, but the older brother can be brought back in line, whereas Edjer seems to have been pretty much uncontrollable when he was overstimulated - and was well known to be so. We can't be positive, of course. (And now I'm angry all over again at the way poor Lily was treated.) From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 02:19:26 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:19:26 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Another quote In-Reply-To: <1968477568.4917329.1637710720533@mail.yahoo.com> References: <93a2c476-9a07-d404-f973-3e2eb5ddbeae@matija.com> <1968477568.4917329.1637710720533@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jackson's whole would indeed be a cheap flag of convenience for merchants. However I suspect they would invite even more investigation by customs agents, "exactly how thick is that hull, Captain?" On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 5:39 PM Richard G. Molpus wrote: > The recent law changes in California, that basically outlaw independent > employment, also have a large impact. Owner/operators are under great > pressure to change to a sole contract status with only one carrier, to get > the benefit package the State wants (and the tax oversight the state REALLY > wants). > > This pressure, along with the cruddy contracts the trucking companies are > offering, is reducing the number of truckers who are willing to work in > California. why take a contract in Cali, when loads in other state are > better paying. and you can really be your own boss? > I bet one of the major uses of Jackson's whole is as a registration center > for Independent Space freighters; Few taxes (fees), few regulations on > staffing; little regulation. A planet that tries to force spacers to abide > by their laws, away from their system; probably finds itself semi-isolated > as the independent (and some Trading fleets) decide to stay away and avoid > problems caused by their Jacksonian registration. > > On Tuesday, November 23, 2021, 04:05:42 PM CST, Raymond Collins < > rcrcoll6 at gmail.com> wrote: > > One of the reasons there is a truck driver shortage is because driving a > truck these days is not as lucrative as it used to be. Especially when a > trucker has to wait for a load he's making no money or if he has to drive > a long distance to pickup a load. Also many truck transport firms are > shifting toward owner operators instead of maintaining a fleet because it's > cheaper for them. > > On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 1:23 PM Sue Nicholson wrote: > > > Funnily enough none of these seem to be in the higher paid categories - > > what does that say about our societal priorities? > > SueN > > > > On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 at 01:31, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > In addition to all the first responders, also dock workers, truck > > > drivers (long and short route), also sailors. > > > > > > People who keep the water systems working, people who keep the power > > > systems working (that includes both linemen, people working in the > power > > > plants, and people managing the stability of the power network) and > > > people who keep communications lines working (phone and internet, few > do > > > one without the other, these days). > > > > > > People who keep the data centers running, and people who are on-call to > > > maintain the stability of services in those data centers. > > > > > > People who transport and deliver groceries, people who cook and deliver > > > takeout food. > > > > > > Oh, and doctors/nurses who need not be first responders to be > essential. > > > > > > I probably missed one or more categories of essential workers. Some are > > > more visible than others. > > > > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 02:23:54 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:23:54 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sometimes when I cough, my esophagus will activate my gag reflex which I have to fight to keep from throwing up. I find sipping a glass of water helps. On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 7:19 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com > > Gwynne's allergies are irritating her throat and making her cough badly. > As if that weren't enough, Gwynne forgot to mention another peril for > ladies of a certain age caught coughing in public, that of wetting one's > pants.? If I have a split second of warning, I always brace in the 3rd > position [one foot jammed perpendicular to the middle of the other one], > just in case. > Then there's coughing at the wrong angle and pulling rib or other muscles > at unfortunate angles, just to make your days extra special. > Jerrie > > Gwynne: Ah, yes, the little joys and challenges that make sneezing season > so much fun. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From wawenri at msn.com Wed Nov 24 03:30:25 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 03:30:25 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Citizenship? Message-ID: Are Gregor's subjects termed citizens of Barrayar? Since Enrique married Martha, is he now a Barrayan subject? What effect would that have on his status as a fugitive from Escobar? William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From wawenri at msn.com Wed Nov 24 03:34:33 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 03:34:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Another quote In-Reply-To: References: <93a2c476-9a07-d404-f973-3e2eb5ddbeae@matija.com> Message-ID: Except in CA, where owner operators are against the law. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Raymond Collins Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2021 3:05:10 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Another quote One of the reasons there is a truck driver shortage is because driving a truck these days is not as lucrative as it used to be. Especially when a trucker has to wait for a load he's making no money or if he has to drive a long distance to pickup a load. Also many truck transport firms are shifting toward owner operators instead of maintaining a fleet because it's cheaper for them. On Tue, Nov 23, 2021, 1:23 PM Sue Nicholson wrote: > Funnily enough none of these seem to be in the higher paid categories - > what does that say about our societal priorities? > SueN > > On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 at 01:31, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > In addition to all the first responders, also dock workers, truck > > drivers (long and short route), also sailors. > > > > People who keep the water systems working, people who keep the power > > systems working (that includes both linemen, people working in the power > > plants, and people managing the stability of the power network) and > > people who keep communications lines working (phone and internet, few do > > one without the other, these days). > > > > People who keep the data centers running, and people who are on-call to > > maintain the stability of services in those data centers. > > > > People who transport and deliver groceries, people who cook and deliver > > takeout food. > > > > Oh, and doctors/nurses who need not be first responders to be essential. > > > > I probably missed one or more categories of essential workers. Some are > > more visible than others. > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cd36f99852c224def5e0b08d9aecd61f7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637733019399232367%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=KQXawNMvv2JVe%2FhCGUCTKx4OZmoaJjUGopSpxxx80qE%3D&reserved=0 > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cd36f99852c224def5e0b08d9aecd61f7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637733019399232367%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=KQXawNMvv2JVe%2FhCGUCTKx4OZmoaJjUGopSpxxx80qE%3D&reserved=0 From rgmolpus at flash.net Wed Nov 24 05:01:34 2021 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard G. Molpus) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 05:01:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Another quote In-Reply-To: References: <93a2c476-9a07-d404-f973-3e2eb5ddbeae@matija.com> Message-ID: <47413287.4982789.1637730094747@mail.yahoo.com> The effect of the California "No Freelancers" Law has been stayed with regard to Truckers; there is a large body of Federal Law that regulates truckers; and A Fed Court held that the Cali law conflicted with Fed law, so it's Fed 1, Cali 0. Not that Cali doesn't try.... On Tuesday, November 23, 2021, 09:34:50 PM CST, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: Except in CA, where owner operators are against the law. William A Wenrich ? *? ? A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Raymond Collins Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2021 3:05:10 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Another quote One of the reasons there is a truck driver shortage is because driving a truck these days is not as lucrative as it used to be. Especially when a trucker has to wait for a load he's making no money or? if he has to drive a long distance to pickup a load. Also many truck transport firms are shifting toward owner operators instead of maintaining a fleet because it's cheaper for them.d From saffronrose at me.com Wed Nov 24 05:32:59 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 21:32:59 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E45CEB-7F4D-4766-B0B4-27273B07B964@me.com> On Nov 23, 2021, at 6:24 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > ?Sometimes when I cough, my esophagus will activate my gag reflex which I > have to fight to keep from throwing up. I find sipping a glass of water > helps. At last someone else with this issue! I start coughing if I laugh hard enough, too. Post-nasal drip from allergies is the cause, but sometimes random molecules of air being where they shouldn?t triggers a cough. Being allergic to codeine, there?s no prescription cough medication for me. I won?t waste guid Scots whisky, but whiskey and rum (brandies too, but I don?t care for them as much) are strong enough to depress the CNS urge to make me cough/numb my throat as if I had whooping cough from a molecule of air looking at my throat the wrong way. Drinking for that purpose is no fun, and I?d rather not. Depressing. I always thought that drinking water (what I usually grab for when coughing) reminded the muscles of the direction they were supposed to work. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Wed Nov 24 05:45:41 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 21:45:41 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63D1ECE9-E2FD-47DC-834E-C0D0C25F32A8@me.com> On Nov 23, 2021, at 5:20 PM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > ?From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com > > Gwynne's allergies are irritating her throat and making her cough badly. > As if that weren't enough, Gwynne forgot to mention another peril for ladies of a certain age caught coughing in public, that of wetting one's pants.? If I have a split second of warning, I always brace in the 3rd position [one foot jammed perpendicular to the middle of the other one], just in case. > Then there's coughing at the wrong angle and pulling rib or other muscles at unfortunate angles, just to make your days extra special. > Jerrie > > Gwynne: Ah, yes, the little joys and challenges that make sneezing season so much fun. Ah, LBL! I had a temp job with a mall-based marketing research firm. Being older, I could call people who?d agreed to be available for market research inquiries. As the oldest one there, I called women 50+ to see if they were interested in trying a product. The screening questions included a question to be asked of all women of any age?are you now, or could you be, pregnant or nursing. I would tell the woman on the line that I was pretty sure I knew the answer, and had to ask anyway, and we would both laugh about it. Of course, being near of an age, I could then use that to talk about LBL, as it?s labeled, from another older woman?s viewpoint. I could not for the life of me get a shopper to come with me to do a paid survey, but I got them hooked on the phone. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 06:41:04 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 00:41:04 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: <63D1ECE9-E2FD-47DC-834E-C0D0C25F32A8@me.com> References: <63D1ECE9-E2FD-47DC-834E-C0D0C25F32A8@me.com> Message-ID: I've been fighting a cough as part of a cold for several days now. Between bouts of almost uncontrollable coughing, and the fact that when I cough, my umbicular hernia hurts (rather less if I press it in, but I want RID of it---the damn doctors won't do a damn thing because "you're too FAAAAT." Can it be wondered why I dislike the medical profession?) I am not happy about it at all. I'm also weaker than usual. I had to abort trips to see *Dune* (It isn't being shown here, *grumble grumble damn small town*) twice because, both times, by the time I got down there, I was too weak and sleepy to do anything but head back for home and into bed. On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 11:45 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Nov 23, 2021, at 5:20 PM, Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > > > ?From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com > > > > Gwynne's allergies are irritating her throat and making her cough badly. > > As if that weren't enough, Gwynne forgot to mention another peril for > ladies of a certain age caught coughing in public, that of wetting one's > pants.? If I have a split second of warning, I always brace in the 3rd > position [one foot jammed perpendicular to the middle of the other one], > just in case. > > Then there's coughing at the wrong angle and pulling rib or other > muscles at unfortunate angles, just to make your days extra special. > > Jerrie > > > > Gwynne: Ah, yes, the little joys and challenges that make sneezing > season so much fun. > > Ah, LBL! > > I had a temp job with a mall-based marketing research firm. Being older, I > could call people who?d agreed to be available for market research > inquiries. As the oldest one there, I called women 50+ to see if they were > interested in trying a product. > > The screening questions included a question to be asked of all women of > any age?are you now, or could you be, pregnant or nursing. > > I would tell the woman on the line that I was pretty sure I knew the > answer, and had to ask anyway, and we would both laugh about it. Of course, > being near of an age, I could then use that to talk about LBL, as it?s > labeled, from another older woman?s viewpoint. > > I could not for the life of me get a shopper to come with me to do a paid > survey, but I got them hooked on the phone. > > A. Marina Fournier > saffronrose at me.com > Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e > Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA > Sent from iFionnghuala > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From lmb at matija.com Wed Nov 24 07:30:53 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 07:30:53 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Another quote In-Reply-To: <1968477568.4917329.1637710720533@mail.yahoo.com> References: <93a2c476-9a07-d404-f973-3e2eb5ddbeae@matija.com> <1968477568.4917329.1637710720533@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <28338db3-9ccf-3da3-1967-3db6c6defa46@matija.com> On 23/11/2021 23:38, Richard G. Molpus wrote: > (stuff relevant to US economy skipped, as it could lead to US politics) > I bet one of the major uses of Jackson's whole is as a registration center for Independent Space freighters; Few taxes (fees), few regulations on staffing; little regulation. That also means that you have to be extra careful of any supplies you take on there. For example: if you take on water at a highly regulated port, you can be sure the water is up to regs. And if it isn't, you can call an inspector, and the inspector will be riding the company and charging them fines long after you've been made whole and moved on. If you take it on in a non-regulated port like Jackson's whole, you have to be extra super careful to inspect it for pollutants (chemical and biological) and any other cost-cutting dodge that the locals might pull on you. If they sell you bad stuff, you could sue them (but that means you are stuck there, fighting the legal battles, instead of trading, meanwhile your ship is incurring docking fees and other costs), or you could hire mercenaries to take them out (but if they have the backing of a Baron, that would get very expensive quickly). To be able to take on a Baron, your resources have to be comparable to those of the Baron, or the Baron will simply out-bid you. > A planet that tries to force spacers to abide by their laws, away from their system; probably finds itself semi-isolated as the independent (and some Trading fleets) decide to stay away and avoid problems caused by their Jacksonian registration. On the other hand, if the Jackson whole registered ships tend to be poorly financed, cut-cost-to-the-bone death-traps, they might find themselves barred from the more profitable ports, anyway. Profitable ports prefer to work with ships that are safe (and well financed, so they can afford safety). Because ships that are unsafe can bring chemical pollutants, biological infestations, they can cause safety accidents to your trading station. All of which will be costly to remedy and cut into profits. Ships that are built with safety margin, and which trade in ports with good regulation have higher start-up costs, but are more profitable because they have fewer unexpected/emergency costs, and because they spend more time trading and less time making sure they are not being cheated. Trading fleets are an interesting thing to mention. Komarr's trading fleet is highly correlated to the ruling families on Komarr. It is quite natural that having a well-run fleet of safe ships would be a status symbol there. That a safe ship is more expensive than an unsafe ship is not a bug to them, it is a feature, since it keeps marginal upstarts out of polite society. In the end, it would probably be a dynamic balance of compromises. Profitable ports like Earth would probably allow docking to ships flagged under some other planets, as long as those planets had a reasonable (exact definition of reasonable would change over time) level of safety. Jackson's whole would need to find some level of guaranteeing a given level of quality of their supplies and of vessels bannered there, or find itself ignored by all but the most marginal shippers. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 08:34:05 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 02:34:05 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Another quote In-Reply-To: <28338db3-9ccf-3da3-1967-3db6c6defa46@matija.com> References: <93a2c476-9a07-d404-f973-3e2eb5ddbeae@matija.com> <1968477568.4917329.1637710720533@mail.yahoo.com> <28338db3-9ccf-3da3-1967-3db6c6defa46@matija.com> Message-ID: That's where Mile's. . . Cough cough, I mean, Admiral Naismith of the Dendarii Mercenaries steps in. For a fee of course. On Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:31 AM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > On 23/11/2021 23:38, Richard G. Molpus wrote: > > (stuff relevant to US economy skipped, as it could lead to US politics) > > I bet one of the major uses of Jackson's whole is as a registration > center for Independent Space freighters; Few taxes (fees), few regulations > on staffing; little regulation. > That also means that you have to be extra careful of any supplies you > take on there. > > For example: if you take on water at a highly regulated port, you can be > sure the water is up to regs. > > And if it isn't, you can call an inspector, and the inspector will be > riding the company and charging them fines long after you've been made > whole and moved on. > > If you take it on in a non-regulated port like Jackson's whole, you have > to be extra super careful to inspect it for pollutants (chemical and > biological) and any other cost-cutting dodge that the locals might pull > on you. > > If they sell you bad stuff, you could sue them (but that means you are > stuck there, fighting the legal battles, instead of trading, meanwhile > your ship is incurring docking fees and other costs), or you could hire > mercenaries to take them out (but if they have the backing of a Baron, > that would get very expensive quickly). > > To be able to take on a Baron, your resources have to be comparable to > those of the Baron, or the Baron will simply out-bid you. > > > A planet that tries to force spacers to abide by their laws, away from > their system; probably finds itself semi-isolated as the independent (and > some Trading fleets) decide to stay away and avoid problems caused by their > Jacksonian registration. > > On the other hand, if the Jackson whole registered ships tend to be > poorly financed, cut-cost-to-the-bone death-traps, they might find > themselves barred from the more profitable ports, anyway. > > Profitable ports prefer to work with ships that are safe (and well > financed, so they can afford safety). Because ships that are unsafe can > bring chemical pollutants, biological infestations, they can cause > safety accidents to your trading station. All of which will be costly to > remedy and cut into profits. Ships that are built with safety margin, > and which trade in ports with good regulation have higher start-up > costs, but are more profitable because they have fewer > unexpected/emergency costs, and because they spend more time trading and > less time making sure they are not being cheated. > > Trading fleets are an interesting thing to mention. Komarr's trading > fleet is highly correlated to the ruling families on Komarr. It is quite > natural that having a well-run fleet of safe ships would be a status > symbol there. That a safe ship is more expensive than an unsafe ship is > not a bug to them, it is a feature, since it keeps marginal upstarts out > of polite society. > > In the end, it would probably be a dynamic balance of compromises. > Profitable ports like Earth would probably allow docking to ships > flagged under some other planets, as long as those planets had a > reasonable (exact definition of reasonable would change over time) level > of safety. Jackson's whole would need to find some level of guaranteeing > a given level of quality of their supplies and of vessels bannered > there, or find itself ignored by all but the most marginal shippers. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From lmb at matija.com Wed Nov 24 09:01:53 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 09:01:53 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Another quote In-Reply-To: References: <93a2c476-9a07-d404-f973-3e2eb5ddbeae@matija.com> <1968477568.4917329.1637710720533@mail.yahoo.com> <28338db3-9ccf-3da3-1967-3db6c6defa46@matija.com> Message-ID: <2dcbf61b-d037-4894-c322-689c4e4f8a3e@matija.com> Yes, I believe I mentioned that in the text: to hire mercenaries to take on a Baron, your net worth has to be comparable to the Baron's. Otherwise, he will be able to hire so many more mercenaries that your mercenaries will just give up. (Or he could offer some of the less savory mercenaries enough money that they would simply turn on you. Miles wouldn't do that, others might). However, Admiral Naismith sometimes took jobs that (discreetly) aided Barrayaran interests. So, I could imagine a scenario where a ships' captain wanted to take on a Baron that has control of the ports because he sells polluted water, and low-oxygen atmosphere, and charges extortion level prices for shoddy maintenance and dirty berthing. Some Komarran trading houses might, ... hkhm, help defray Dendarii's costs, discreetly, since they could never be seen to be attacking someone running a port. On 24/11/2021 08:34, Raymond Collins wrote: > That's where Mile's. . . Cough cough, I mean, Admiral Naismith of the > Dendarii Mercenaries steps in. For a fee of course. > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:31 AM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > >> On 23/11/2021 23:38, Richard G. Molpus wrote: >>> (stuff relevant to US economy skipped, as it could lead to US politics) >>> I bet one of the major uses of Jackson's whole is as a registration >> center for Independent Space freighters; Few taxes (fees), few regulations >> on staffing; little regulation. >> That also means that you have to be extra careful of any supplies you >> take on there. >> >> For example: if you take on water at a highly regulated port, you can be >> sure the water is up to regs. >> >> And if it isn't, you can call an inspector, and the inspector will be >> riding the company and charging them fines long after you've been made >> whole and moved on. >> >> If you take it on in a non-regulated port like Jackson's whole, you have >> to be extra super careful to inspect it for pollutants (chemical and >> biological) and any other cost-cutting dodge that the locals might pull >> on you. >> >> If they sell you bad stuff, you could sue them (but that means you are >> stuck there, fighting the legal battles, instead of trading, meanwhile >> your ship is incurring docking fees and other costs), or you could hire >> mercenaries to take them out (but if they have the backing of a Baron, >> that would get very expensive quickly). >> >> To be able to take on a Baron, your resources have to be comparable to >> those of the Baron, or the Baron will simply out-bid you. >> >>> A planet that tries to force spacers to abide by their laws, away from >> their system; probably finds itself semi-isolated as the independent (and >> some Trading fleets) decide to stay away and avoid problems caused by their >> Jacksonian registration. >> >> On the other hand, if the Jackson whole registered ships tend to be >> poorly financed, cut-cost-to-the-bone death-traps, they might find >> themselves barred from the more profitable ports, anyway. >> >> Profitable ports prefer to work with ships that are safe (and well >> financed, so they can afford safety). Because ships that are unsafe can >> bring chemical pollutants, biological infestations, they can cause >> safety accidents to your trading station. All of which will be costly to >> remedy and cut into profits. Ships that are built with safety margin, >> and which trade in ports with good regulation have higher start-up >> costs, but are more profitable because they have fewer >> unexpected/emergency costs, and because they spend more time trading and >> less time making sure they are not being cheated. >> >> Trading fleets are an interesting thing to mention. Komarr's trading >> fleet is highly correlated to the ruling families on Komarr. It is quite >> natural that having a well-run fleet of safe ships would be a status >> symbol there. That a safe ship is more expensive than an unsafe ship is >> not a bug to them, it is a feature, since it keeps marginal upstarts out >> of polite society. >> >> In the end, it would probably be a dynamic balance of compromises. >> Profitable ports like Earth would probably allow docking to ships >> flagged under some other planets, as long as those planets had a >> reasonable (exact definition of reasonable would change over time) level >> of safety. Jackson's whole would need to find some level of guaranteeing >> a given level of quality of their supplies and of vessels bannered >> there, or find itself ignored by all but the most marginal shippers. >> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> From proto at panix.com Wed Nov 24 15:26:59 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 10:26:59 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Citizenship? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <467DB605-746E-41A1-AB2D-B88AA8654834@panix.com> > On Nov 23, 2021, at 10:30 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > b I believe they are referred to as subjects. Which leaves the Emperor the only person who is not a subject. It is reported that the Mulla Nasruiden made a boast that he could make a pun on any subject. Some wit asked him to make a pun on the King. ?The King is not a subject. > Since Enrique married Martha, is he now a Barrayan subject? AFAiK, there is no text evidence about this. > What effect would that have on his status as a fugitive from Escobar? I believe the situation was resolved in canon. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to proto at panix.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > ? "We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." - Attributed to Plato From proto at panix.com Wed Nov 24 15:33:42 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 10:33:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: <63D1ECE9-E2FD-47DC-834E-C0D0C25F32A8@me.com> References: <63D1ECE9-E2FD-47DC-834E-C0D0C25F32A8@me.com> Message-ID: <4FE9E47F-EAB1-49BE-920C-748BCC90021E@panix.com> > On Nov 24, 2021, at 12:45 AM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > The screening questions included a question to be asked of all women of any age?are you now, or could you be, pregnant or nursing. I got asked that question in a form I had to fill out before my Covid booster. They also asked for my birth assigned gender and my current gender and pronouns. (If there are pronouns, are there antinouns or amateurnouns?) ? Sig intentionally left blank. From wawenri at msn.com Wed Nov 24 15:34:34 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:34:34 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: TV Show Message-ID: Imagine if you will a TV show in which seven people are catastrophically separated from the rest of the world. They are four men and three women. There are no African Americans, no Hispanic, no gays, and no transgenders. One man and woman are married (to each other). There are no sex scenes. In general, they get along together. There is no fighting. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From proto at panix.com Wed Nov 24 15:35:31 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 10:35:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: <63D1ECE9-E2FD-47DC-834E-C0D0C25F32A8@me.com> References: <63D1ECE9-E2FD-47DC-834E-C0D0C25F32A8@me.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 24, 2021, at 12:45 AM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > LBL??? ? As the historical Buddha said, ?Hatred does not stop by hatred at any time; hatred stops only by love. this is an ancient rule.? about 2770 BP (BP means either Before Present or Before Physics that is before nuclear testing made it necessary to adjust carbon 14 dating. From lmb at matija.com Wed Nov 24 15:35:40 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:35:40 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Citizenship? In-Reply-To: <467DB605-746E-41A1-AB2D-B88AA8654834@panix.com> References: <467DB605-746E-41A1-AB2D-B88AA8654834@panix.com> Message-ID: On 24/11/2021 15:26, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > I believe they are referred to as subjects. > Which leaves the Emperor the only person who is not a subject. > > It is reported that the Mulla Nasruiden made a boast that he could make > a pun on any subject. Some wit asked him to make a pun on the King. > > ?The King is not a subject. I think you will find that was Oscar Wilde: https://ralphkeyes.com/book/oscar-wilde/#:~:text=Wilde%20claimed%20he%20could%20discuss,queen%20is%20not%20a%20subject.%E2%80%9D From proto at panix.com Wed Nov 24 15:43:42 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 10:43:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Citizenship? In-Reply-To: References: <467DB605-746E-41A1-AB2D-B88AA8654834@panix.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 24, 2021, at 10:35 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > On 24/11/2021 15:26, WalterStuartBushell wrote: >> I believe they are referred to as subjects. >> Which leaves the Emperor the only person who is not a subject. >> >> It is reported that the Mulla Nasruiden made a boast that he could make >> a pun on any subject. Some wit asked him to make a pun on the King. >> >> ?The King is not a subject. > > I think you will find that was Oscar Wilde: > > https://ralphkeyes.com/book/oscar-wilde/#:~:text=Wilde%20claimed%20he%20could%20discuss,queen%20is%20not%20a%20subject.%E2%80%9D > > There once was a woman named Wilde, Who kept herself quite undefiled, By thinking of Jesus Contagious diseases And having an unwanted child. From margdean56 at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 17:02:54 2021 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 10:02:54 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: TV Show In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 8:34 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Imagine if you will a TV show in which seven people are catastrophically > separated from the rest of the world. They are four men and three women. > There are no African Americans, no Hispanic, no gays, and no transgenders. > One man and woman are married (to each other). There are no sex scenes. In > general, they get along together. There is no fighting. > But one of them is a robot! Aren't we talking about Lost in Space? --Margaret Dean From greg.hennessy at cox.net Wed Nov 24 17:03:32 2021 From: greg.hennessy at cox.net (Greg Hennessy) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:03:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: TV Show In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/24/21 10:34, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Imagine if you will a TV show in which seven people are > catastrophically separated from the rest of the world. They are four > men and three women. There are no African Americans, no Hispanic, no > gays, and no transgenders. One man and woman are married (to each > other). There are no sex scenes. In general, they get along together. > There is no fighting. Sounds like Gilligan's Island, except that show had multiple examples of them fighting. Why should we Imagine this? What would be the point? Other than nostalgia for 60's escapist fiction. From fred.fredex at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 18:04:04 2021 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:04:04 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: <63D1ECE9-E2FD-47DC-834E-C0D0C25F32A8@me.com> Message-ID: Guessing: Lois Bujold List On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 10:35 AM WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > > > On Nov 24, 2021, at 12:45 AM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > LBL??? > > ? > As the historical Buddha said, ?Hatred does not stop by hatred at any > time; hatred stops only by love. this is an ancient rule.? about 2770 BP > (BP means either Before Present or Before Physics that is before nuclear > testing made it necessary to adjust carbon 14 dating. > > > > > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From wawenri at msn.com Wed Nov 24 20:17:33 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:17:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] =?windows-1252?q?OT=3A_Anna=92s_cooking?= Message-ID: Anna is contributing to Thanksgiving dinner by making macaroni and cheese, cranberry relish, and a chocolate delight pie. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From wawenri at msn.com Wed Nov 24 20:27:27 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:27:27 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: TV Show In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, I was going for Gilligan?s Island. I recall arguments but no physical fighting. It was a comment on how things have changed since 1964-67. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Greg Hennessy Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2021 10:03:32 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: TV Show On 11/24/21 10:34, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Imagine if you will a TV show in which seven people are > catastrophically separated from the rest of the world. They are four > men and three women. There are no African Americans, no Hispanic, no > gays, and no transgenders. One man and woman are married (to each > other). There are no sex scenes. In general, they get along together. > There is no fighting. Sounds like Gilligan's Island, except that show had multiple examples of them fighting. Why should we Imagine this? What would be the point? Other than nostalgia for 60's escapist fiction. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cde7c56c9de0642ee3d5408d9af6c5e46%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637733702238366200%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=juv4WmVT6YH3BilstpYxtPUhbgbHdZnqf36HXc8Gi9c%3D&reserved=0 From agnes at charrel.net Thu Nov 25 00:21:06 2021 From: agnes at charrel.net (Agnes Charrel-Berthillier) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:21:06 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: TV Show In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <88518d4f-90a4-5ec3-e8d1-33d297795e41@charrel.net> On 11/24/21 12:27, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Yes, I was going for Gilligan?s Island. I recall arguments but no physical fighting. > It was a comment on how things have changed since 1964-67. They are now showing non white people on US TV? I wasn't alive at the time. Was Star Trek (1966, so... not quite outside the 1964-67 range) the beginning of the move toward today, when African Americans, Hispanics, gay people, and transgender people do show up on your screen? Yes, things change. There has been extensive research on the topic. If you are interested you might want to start, say... here? https://researchguides.dartmouth.edu/television/representation Agnes > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Greg Hennessy > Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2021 10:03:32 AM > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: TV Show > > > > On 11/24/21 10:34, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >> Imagine if you will a TV show in which seven people are >> catastrophically separated from the rest of the world. They are four >> men and three women. There are no African Americans, no Hispanic, no >> gays, and no transgenders. One man and woman are married (to each >> other). There are no sex scenes. In general, they get along together. >> There is no fighting. > Sounds like Gilligan's Island, except that show had multiple examples > of them fighting. > > Why should we Imagine this? What would be the point? Other than > nostalgia for 60's escapist fiction. > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cde7c56c9de0642ee3d5408d9af6c5e46%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637733702238366200%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=juv4WmVT6YH3BilstpYxtPUhbgbHdZnqf36HXc8Gi9c%3D&reserved=0 From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Nov 25 01:47:03 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 01:47:03 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 21:27:21 -0600, Raymond Collins wrote: >Let's change the subject. I got my booster shot and I feel I fell down the >stairs got back up and fell down again. Did anyone get their Covid booster >shot? Had mine (Moderna). For the first time, some injection site soreness (though the jab itself was painless). Feel a bit washed out the last 36 hours, as though I have a bad - but dry - cold. -- -The Devil's Dictionary, 1911 religion, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. (Ambrose Bierce) From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Nov 25 01:49:34 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 01:49:34 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:23:54 -0600, Raymond Collins wrote: >Sometimes when I cough, my esophagus will activate my gag reflex which I >have to fight to keep from throwing up. I find sipping a glass of water >helps. Have you been tested to see if you have "silent" reflux? This can be one of the symptoms. I have an inhaler to help deal with it, and also take a gastric acid suppressor. -- -The Devil's Dictionary, 1911 religion, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. (Ambrose Bierce) From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Nov 25 01:51:00 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 01:51:00 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: <4FE9E47F-EAB1-49BE-920C-748BCC90021E@panix.com> References: <63D1ECE9-E2FD-47DC-834E-C0D0C25F32A8@me.com> <4FE9E47F-EAB1-49BE-920C-748BCC90021E@panix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 10:33:42 -0500, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > >> On Nov 24, 2021, at 12:45 AM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote: >> >> The screening questions included a question to be asked of all women of any age?are you now, or could you be, pregnant or nursing. > >I got asked that question in a form I had to fill out before my Covid booster. They also asked for my birth assigned gender >and my current gender and pronouns. (If there are pronouns, are there antinouns or amateurnouns?) I worked on the census last year; it was occasionally hilarious asking some of the questions. -- Never annoy a Bard, for we are quick to anger and your name scans to "Greensleeves." - Griff Sanford From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 02:30:35 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:30:35 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Another quote In-Reply-To: <2dcbf61b-d037-4894-c322-689c4e4f8a3e@matija.com> References: <93a2c476-9a07-d404-f973-3e2eb5ddbeae@matija.com> <1968477568.4917329.1637710720533@mail.yahoo.com> <28338db3-9ccf-3da3-1967-3db6c6defa46@matija.com> <2dcbf61b-d037-4894-c322-689c4e4f8a3e@matija.com> Message-ID: Sometimes just a threat of a mercenary can bring people to a negotiation table. Another strategy used against a enemy Baron may not be a takeover of his/her's domain but just go in and smash the infrastructure which might cause bankruptcy. On Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 3:02 AM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > Yes, I believe I mentioned that in the text: to hire mercenaries to take > on a Baron, your net worth has to be comparable to the Baron's. > > Otherwise, he will be able to hire so many more mercenaries that your > mercenaries will just give up. (Or he could offer some of the less > savory mercenaries enough money that they would simply turn on you. > Miles wouldn't do that, others might). > > However, Admiral Naismith sometimes took jobs that (discreetly) aided > Barrayaran interests. > > So, I could imagine a scenario where a ships' captain wanted to take on > a Baron that has control of the ports because he sells polluted water, > and low-oxygen atmosphere, and charges extortion level prices for shoddy > maintenance and dirty berthing. Some Komarran trading houses might, ... > hkhm, help defray Dendarii's costs, discreetly, since they could never > be seen to be attacking someone running a port. > > On 24/11/2021 08:34, Raymond Collins wrote: > > That's where Mile's. . . Cough cough, I mean, Admiral Naismith of the > > Dendarii Mercenaries steps in. For a fee of course. > > > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:31 AM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > >> On 23/11/2021 23:38, Richard G. Molpus wrote: > >>> (stuff relevant to US economy skipped, as it could lead to US politics) > >>> I bet one of the major uses of Jackson's whole is as a registration > >> center for Independent Space freighters; Few taxes (fees), few > regulations > >> on staffing; little regulation. > >> That also means that you have to be extra careful of any supplies you > >> take on there. > >> > >> For example: if you take on water at a highly regulated port, you can be > >> sure the water is up to regs. > >> > >> And if it isn't, you can call an inspector, and the inspector will be > >> riding the company and charging them fines long after you've been made > >> whole and moved on. > >> > >> If you take it on in a non-regulated port like Jackson's whole, you have > >> to be extra super careful to inspect it for pollutants (chemical and > >> biological) and any other cost-cutting dodge that the locals might pull > >> on you. > >> > >> If they sell you bad stuff, you could sue them (but that means you are > >> stuck there, fighting the legal battles, instead of trading, meanwhile > >> your ship is incurring docking fees and other costs), or you could hire > >> mercenaries to take them out (but if they have the backing of a Baron, > >> that would get very expensive quickly). > >> > >> To be able to take on a Baron, your resources have to be comparable to > >> those of the Baron, or the Baron will simply out-bid you. > >> > >>> A planet that tries to force spacers to abide by their laws, away > from > >> their system; probably finds itself semi-isolated as the independent > (and > >> some Trading fleets) decide to stay away and avoid problems caused by > their > >> Jacksonian registration. > >> > >> On the other hand, if the Jackson whole registered ships tend to be > >> poorly financed, cut-cost-to-the-bone death-traps, they might find > >> themselves barred from the more profitable ports, anyway. > >> > >> Profitable ports prefer to work with ships that are safe (and well > >> financed, so they can afford safety). Because ships that are unsafe can > >> bring chemical pollutants, biological infestations, they can cause > >> safety accidents to your trading station. All of which will be costly to > >> remedy and cut into profits. Ships that are built with safety margin, > >> and which trade in ports with good regulation have higher start-up > >> costs, but are more profitable because they have fewer > >> unexpected/emergency costs, and because they spend more time trading and > >> less time making sure they are not being cheated. > >> > >> Trading fleets are an interesting thing to mention. Komarr's trading > >> fleet is highly correlated to the ruling families on Komarr. It is quite > >> natural that having a well-run fleet of safe ships would be a status > >> symbol there. That a safe ship is more expensive than an unsafe ship is > >> not a bug to them, it is a feature, since it keeps marginal upstarts out > >> of polite society. > >> > >> In the end, it would probably be a dynamic balance of compromises. > >> Profitable ports like Earth would probably allow docking to ships > >> flagged under some other planets, as long as those planets had a > >> reasonable (exact definition of reasonable would change over time) level > >> of safety. Jackson's whole would need to find some level of guaranteeing > >> a given level of quality of their supplies and of vessels bannered > >> there, or find itself ignored by all but the most marginal shippers. > >> > >> -- > >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > >> > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 02:41:52 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:41:52 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: <63D1ECE9-E2FD-47DC-834E-C0D0C25F32A8@me.com> <4FE9E47F-EAB1-49BE-920C-748BCC90021E@panix.com> Message-ID: I do take tums but not every day. On Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 7:51 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 10:33:42 -0500, WalterStuartBushell > wrote: > > > > > > >> On Nov 24, 2021, at 12:45 AM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > >> > >> The screening questions included a question to be asked of all women of > any age?are you now, or could you be, pregnant or nursing. > > > >I got asked that question in a form I had to fill out before my Covid > booster. They also asked for my birth assigned gender > >and my current gender and pronouns. (If there are pronouns, are there > antinouns or amateurnouns?) > > I worked on the census last year; it was occasionally hilarious asking > some of the questions. > -- > Never annoy a Bard, for we are quick to anger > and your name scans to "Greensleeves." - Griff Sanford > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From wawenri at msn.com Thu Nov 25 03:48:17 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 03:48:17 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: <63D1ECE9-E2FD-47DC-834E-C0D0C25F32A8@me.com> <4FE9E47F-EAB1-49BE-920C-748BCC90021E@panix.com> Message-ID: I take lanssoprazole. William A Wenrich * Whiskey, Echo, November, Romeo, India, Charley, Hotel ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Raymond Collins Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2021 7:41:52 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Follow up I do take tums but not every day. On Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 7:51 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 10:33:42 -0500, WalterStuartBushell > wrote: > > > > > > >> On Nov 24, 2021, at 12:45 AM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > >> > >> The screening questions included a question to be asked of all women of > any age?are you now, or could you be, pregnant or nursing. > > > >I got asked that question in a form I had to fill out before my Covid > booster. They also asked for my birth assigned gender > >and my current gender and pronouns. (If there are pronouns, are there > antinouns or amateurnouns?) > > I worked on the census last year; it was occasionally hilarious asking > some of the questions. > -- > Never annoy a Bard, for we are quick to anger > and your name scans to "Greensleeves." - Griff Sanford > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C812a9abff0654f8cb72c08d9afbd32b6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637734049408320567%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=RMw1PDnP4QuVZkITBGlsX0XIwQr%2Bol43Q47gCf%2FTvF4%3D&reserved=0 > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C812a9abff0654f8cb72c08d9afbd32b6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637734049408320567%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=RMw1PDnP4QuVZkITBGlsX0XIwQr%2Bol43Q47gCf%2FTvF4%3D&reserved=0 From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 06:37:15 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 00:37:15 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: <63D1ECE9-E2FD-47DC-834E-C0D0C25F32A8@me.com> <4FE9E47F-EAB1-49BE-920C-748BCC90021E@panix.com> Message-ID: I just got a standard medical release form for my booster with questions whether I had allergic reactions to certain stuff, am I pregnant, am I sick etc. On Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 9:48 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > I take lanssoprazole. > > William A Wenrich > > * Whiskey, Echo, November, Romeo, India, Charley, Hotel > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Raymond Collins > Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2021 7:41:52 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Follow up > > I do take tums but not every day. > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 7:51 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > > > On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 10:33:42 -0500, WalterStuartBushell > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> On Nov 24, 2021, at 12:45 AM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < > > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > >> > > >> The screening questions included a question to be asked of all women > of > > any age?are you now, or could you be, pregnant or nursing. > > > > > >I got asked that question in a form I had to fill out before my Covid > > booster. They also asked for my birth assigned gender > > >and my current gender and pronouns. (If there are pronouns, are there > > antinouns or amateurnouns?) > > > > I worked on the census last year; it was occasionally hilarious asking > > some of the questions. > > -- > > Never annoy a Bard, for we are quick to anger > > and your name scans to "Greensleeves." - Griff Sanford > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C812a9abff0654f8cb72c08d9afbd32b6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637734049408320567%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=RMw1PDnP4QuVZkITBGlsX0XIwQr%2Bol43Q47gCf%2FTvF4%3D&reserved=0 > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C812a9abff0654f8cb72c08d9afbd32b6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637734049408320567%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=RMw1PDnP4QuVZkITBGlsX0XIwQr%2Bol43Q47gCf%2FTvF4%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From jpolowin at hotmail.com Thu Nov 25 07:14:20 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 07:14:20 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg Hennessy wrote: > What possible restriction due to COVID would cause three guns to be left > on a table outside? Why is COVID being mentioned at all? Pure speculation: perhaps people were being required to wear masks at all times while indoors, apart from actors while performing. It would be inconvenient for actors who were wearing makeup to put on masks, since it could mess up the makeup. And for someone to fetch the guns to the actors (apart from people officially designated as part of the armourer staff) would violate the safety rules. Joel From tlambs1138 at charter.net Thu Nov 25 18:57:04 2021 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 10:57:04 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Happy Thanksgiving! Message-ID: <040e01d7e22e$3d632640$b82972c0$@charter.net> Happy Thanksgiving to all the Statesians on the list! I will soon be wrestling the turkey and getting it into the over. (we have Thanksgiving supper, no dawn patrol for me, yay). Jean Lamb tlambs1138 at charter.net https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20 From wawenri at msn.com Thu Nov 25 18:58:09 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 18:58:09 +0000 Subject: [LMB] LISTBIZ:Expert? Message-ID: I watched a couple of YouTube videos by "Media Death Cult" about the best science fiction and the best science fiction series. He didn't include anything by Lois and, when I commented on it, he said that he just never read any of her books. How can a person make a best of list without looking at a good representation of the field? It's not like Lois only publishes books in Swahili or that she is totally unknown. My recommendation, don't waste your time. William A Wenrich * Whiskey, Echo, November, Romeo, India, Charley, Hotel From beatrice_otter at zoho.com Thu Nov 25 19:01:56 2021 From: beatrice_otter at zoho.com (Beatrice Otter) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 11:01:56 -0800 Subject: [LMB] LISTBIZ:Expert? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17d5879cb9e.11d58b71379024.7153145791832643672@zoho.com> ---- On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 10:58:09 -0800 WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote ---- I watched a couple of YouTube videos by "Media Death Cult" about the best science fiction and the best science fiction series. He didn't include anything by Lois and, when I commented on it, he said that he just never read any of her books. How can a person make a best of list without looking at a good representation of the field? It's not like Lois only publishes books in Swahili or that she is totally unknown. My recommendation, don't waste your time. Beatrice Otter: She's only one of the most Hugo-winning authors of the last fifty years, tied for most ever with Heinlein himself. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Nov 25 22:31:45 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 16:31:45 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Happy Thanksgiving! In-Reply-To: <040e01d7e22e$3d632640$b82972c0$@charter.net> References: <040e01d7e22e$3d632640$b82972c0$@charter.net> Message-ID: Happy Thanksgiving to you too. I'm currently digesting my Turkey dinner and trying to stay awake. On Thu, Nov 25, 2021, 12:57 PM Jean Lamb wrote: > Happy Thanksgiving to all the Statesians on the list! I will soon be > wrestling the turkey and getting it into the over. (we have Thanksgiving > supper, no dawn patrol for me, yay). > > > Jean Lamb > tlambs1138 at charter.net > https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20 > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From litalex at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 03:19:49 2021 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 22:19:49 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Happy Thanksgiving! In-Reply-To: <040e01d7e22e$3d632640$b82972c0$@charter.net> References: <040e01d7e22e$3d632640$b82972c0$@charter.net> Message-ID: Hello, Happy thanksgiving! We actually didn?t have turkey; my sister came by with her husband and cooked a six course meal, with duck as the main dish. Anyways, I?m so full right now I can?t move. little Alex > On Nov 25, 2021, at 13:57, Jean Lamb wrote: > > Happy Thanksgiving to all the Statesians on the list! I will soon be > wrestling the turkey and getting it into the over. (we have Thanksgiving > supper, no dawn patrol for me, yay). > > > Jean Lamb > tlambs1138 at charter.net > https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20 > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to litalex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From Peterhews at protonmail.com Fri Nov 26 08:06:08 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:06:08 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Australia riots? Message-ID: Can anyone on the other side of the world confirm the reports coming in of anti-vax protests getting big and violent? It's hard to know what to believe when so much comes from very dubious Youtube sources. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/20/australia-covid-protests-threats-against-traitorous-politicians-as-thousands-rally-in-capital-cities Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com/) Secure Email. From wembleyware at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 09:31:13 2021 From: wembleyware at gmail.com (Sharon Micenko) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 17:31:13 +0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: Australia riots? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 77% of the Australian population, (over 18 million people) is fully vaccinated. Anti vax protests are very loud and annoying and the usual idiots are getting violent. Yes, there were nooses and beheading threats. The ones against our local state premier (Western Australia) were tracked to an 18year old and a 20 year old I don?t read the Guardian so I don?t know what they?ve said in the article. Everyone I know is heartily sick of the covidiots. It?s even spread to federal Parliament. The really funny ones are the ones who quote the US constitution. Last I heard we weren?t States in the Union. Sharon > On 26 Nov 2021, at 4:06 pm, Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Can anyone on the other side of the world confirm the reports coming in of anti-vax protests getting big and violent? It's hard to know what to believe when so much comes from very dubious Youtube sources. > https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/20/australia-covid-protests-threats-against-traitorous-politicians-as-thousands-rally-in-capital-cities > > Peter Hews > > Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, > Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. > > Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com/) Secure Email. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wembleyware at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Nov 26 12:09:07 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 12:09:07 +0000 Subject: [LMB] LISTBIZ:Expert? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: WILLIAM A WENRICH I watched a couple of YouTube videos by "Media Death Cult" about the best science fiction and the best science fiction series. He didn't include anything by Lois and, when I commented on it, he said that he just never read any of her books. How can a person make a best of list without looking at a good representation of the field? It's not like Lois only publishes books in Swahili or that she is totally unknown. My recommendation, don't waste your time. William A Wenrich Gwynne: If he'd claimed it as 'My favourite authors' it would at least be accurate, although it shows his lack of research in the field. It's certainly not the best, when it ignores at least one of the best writers. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Nov 26 12:12:08 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 12:12:08 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Happy Thanksgiving! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Jean Lamb" Happy Thanksgiving to all the Statesians on the list! I will soon be wrestling the turkey and getting it into the over. (we have Thanksgiving supper, no dawn patrol for me, yay). Gwynne: I hope all the US listees are recovering from wonderful Thanksgiving meals, and happy times with family and friends - hope you had a great turkey day! From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Fri Nov 26 23:45:27 2021 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 23:45:27 +0000 Subject: [LMB] _Spirit Ring_ audio on sale Message-ID: _The Spirit Ring_, read by Grover Gardner, is on sale at downpour.com for 4.99 today: https://www.downpour.com/the-spirit-ring?mc_cid=fa7ea62af4&mc_eid=ba8bbfca2b&sp=313839 ? Jerrie From greg.hennessy at cox.net Sat Nov 27 00:07:01 2021 From: greg.hennessy at cox.net (Greg Hennessy) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 19:07:01 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/25/21 02:14, Joel Polowin wrote: > Pure speculation: Perhaps you consider it useful to post 'pure speculation' to the list, I do not. Happy Thanksgiving. From kcollett at hamilton.edu Sat Nov 27 01:26:28 2021 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Kathy Collett) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 20:26:28 -0500 Subject: [LMB] _Spirit Ring_ audio on sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <444F79CB-ECD4-4C8F-8E7B-3D3DF94AB749@hamilton.edu> On Nov 26, 2021, at 6:45 PM, adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com wrote: > > _The Spirit Ring_, read by Grover Gardner, is on sale at downpour.com for 4.99 today: > https://www.downpour.com/the-spirit-ring?mc_cid=fa7ea62af4&mc_eid=ba8bbfca2b&sp=313839 Thanks, that made me go look at Audible, and The Spirit Ring is also included in a new feature if you?re an Audible subscriber ? you can listen to it (and many other works) free, as long as you continue to be a subscriber. Katherine From lbujold at myinfmail.com Sat Nov 27 05:41:35 2021 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 23:41:35 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Louis Who? Message-ID: Somewhere upthread someone was talking about the chronic issue of SF readers who somehow have never heard of my work, which I dub the "Louis Who?" problem.? A quick shorthand reply might usefully include this link: http://www.sfadb.com/Lois_McMaster_Bujold (Because I'd really rather the work spoke for me.) Ta, L. From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Sat Nov 27 07:56:35 2021 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 23:56:35 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Louis Who? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Nov 26, 2021, at 9:41 PM, Lois Bujold wrote: > > Somewhere upthread someone was talking about the chronic issue of SF readers who somehow have never heard of my work, which I dub the "Louis Who?" problem. A quick shorthand reply might usefully include this link: > > http://www.sfadb.com/Lois_McMaster_Bujold > > (Because I'd really rather the work spoke for me.) > There is also the ISFDB entry, http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?13 . "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Nov 27 12:14:29 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 12:14:29 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOTL: Word usage question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is totally not on-topic except that it came up while I was writing something. I'm sure someone here can answer this: What's the difference between a motor and an engine? I've seen the two used interchangeably, but common usage isn't always the best indicator. Is there an actual difference in meaning, or is it ok to use them both to indicate the same item? From dbernat at gol.com Sat Nov 27 13:18:23 2021 From: dbernat at gol.com (dbernat) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 22:18:23 +0900 Subject: [LMB] AKICOTL: Word usage question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <905212c5a84e2ae075e9f8881198b648@gol.com> Gwynne Powell wrote: > This is totally not on-topic except that it came up while I was > writing something. > > I'm sure someone here can answer this: What's the difference between a > motor and an engine? > > I've seen the two used interchangeably, but common usage isn't always > the > best indicator. Is there an actual difference in meaning, or is it ok > to use them both to indicate the same item? https://engineering.mit.edu/engage/ask-an-engineer/whats-the-difference-between-a-motor-and-an-engine/ From listmail at gordonj.net Sat Nov 27 13:51:14 2021 From: listmail at gordonj.net (Gordon Jackson) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 13:51:14 -0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOTL: Word usage question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00b101d7e395$da139e30$8e3ada90$@gordonj.net> Gwynne wrote: >This is totally not on-topic except that it came up while I was writing something. >I'm sure someone here can answer this: What's the difference between a motor and an engine? >I've seen the two used interchangeably, but common usage isn't always the best indicator. Is there an actual difference in meaning, or is it ok to use them both to indicate the same item? This is an interesting one. I regard motor as the more generic term, referring to any device that converts energy into motion, and engine as a device that specifically has multiple moving parts, and moreover probably utilises gaseous expansion. EG Petrol engine, steam engine. Although of course these days the word is also used in a computer science context for example the Chromium Browser Engine. Also however note that here in the UK motor is frequently used to mean "automobile", as in "I bought a new motor the other day to get to work in." Cheers Gordon From wawenri at msn.com Sat Nov 27 15:49:12 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 15:49:12 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOTL: Word usage question In-Reply-To: <00b101d7e395$da139e30$8e3ada90$@gordonj.net> References: <00b101d7e395$da139e30$8e3ada90$@gordonj.net> Message-ID: The way I use it, a motor uses stored energy to produce motion. This could be from batteries, flywheels, or rubber bands. An engine burns fuel to produce motion. This could be gasoline, diesel, natural gas, or hydrogen. A fuel cell doesn?t produce motion. William A Wenrich * Whiskey, Echo, November, Romeo, India, Charley, Hotel ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gordon Jackson Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2021 6:51:14 AM To: 'Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold.' Subject: Re: [LMB] AKICOTL: Word usage question Gwynne wrote: >This is totally not on-topic except that it came up while I was writing something. >I'm sure someone here can answer this: What's the difference between a motor and an engine? >I've seen the two used interchangeably, but common usage isn't always the best indicator. Is there an actual difference in meaning, or is it ok to use them both to indicate the same item? This is an interesting one. I regard motor as the more generic term, referring to any device that converts energy into motion, and engine as a device that specifically has multiple moving parts, and moreover probably utilises gaseous expansion. EG Petrol engine, steam engine. Although of course these days the word is also used in a computer science context for example the Chromium Browser Engine. Also however note that here in the UK motor is frequently used to mean "automobile", as in "I bought a new motor the other day to get to work in." Cheers Gordon -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C1f59d4acacb0439f3d5d08d9b1ad080a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637736178985367583%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=m9El2hsYNfUXI9lsNdzgT%2F%2BC03W%2BKJLCeHNfv0qF9G4%3D&reserved=0 From jpolowin at hotmail.com Sat Nov 27 16:47:11 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 16:47:11 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Follow up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Greg Hennessy Unsnipping: ----- Greg Hennessy wrote: >>> What possible restriction due to COVID would cause three guns to be left >>> on a table outside? Why is COVID being mentioned at all? ----- > On 11/25/21 02:14, Joel Polowin wrote: >> Pure speculation: > Perhaps you consider it useful to post 'pure speculation' to > the list, I do not. You *asked* about "what possible"; I provided a reasonable possibility that is consistent with other common COVID restrictions. Which is not the same thing as the original rumour relayed from an unreliable source. Joel From skyefire at skyefire.org Sat Nov 27 16:56:20 2021 From: skyefire at skyefire.org (David McMillan) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 11:56:20 -0500 Subject: [LMB] AKICOTL: Word usage question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62357d79-0bf3-3e7e-915a-f7433bbb3840@skyefire.org> On 11/27/2021 7:14 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > I'm sure someone here can answer this: What's the difference between a > motor and an engine? ??? It's at least partly contextual.? For example, in rocketry, "motor" usually refers to solid-fuel rockets -- basically, disposable one-use rockets.? While "engine" is used for liquid-fueled engines that can be (at least in theory) re-fueled and re-fired multiple times. ??? Of course, that's a convention, not a hard rule.? And the edge cases always muddy the waters -- hybrids straddle the solid/liquid line, and /some/ solids are /technically /re-usable, while until recently liquid engines in actual flight use were used either disposably, or needed such a complete rebuild that buying a brand-new replacement would have been cheaper. From greg.hennessy at cox.net Sat Nov 27 18:00:41 2021 From: greg.hennessy at cox.net (Greg Hennessy) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 13:00:41 -0500 Subject: [LMB] AKICOTL: Word usage question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06268c75-3700-8a31-09be-2f22283d4ea9@cox.net> > I'm sure someone here can answer this: What's the difference between a > motor and an engine? I'm not sure there is a universal agreement, but I think that typically motors run off electricity, and engines have some sort of combustion powering them. From fishman at panix.com Sat Nov 27 18:51:31 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 18:51:31 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOTL: Word usage question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Gwynne Powell" To: "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 11/27/2021 7:14:29 AM Subject: [LMB] AKICOTL: Word usage question > > >This is totally not on-topic except that it came up while I was writing something. > >I'm sure someone here can answer this: What's the difference between a >motor and an engine? > >I've seen the two used interchangeably, but common usage isn't always the >best indicator. Is there an actual difference in meaning, or is it ok to use them >both to indicate the same item? > As I understand things, usually a 'motor' is an electrical device depending on magnetic repulsion while an engine is a mechanical device depending on gaseous expansion. Harvey From lmb at matija.com Sat Nov 27 19:29:46 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 19:29:46 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOTL: Word usage question In-Reply-To: <62357d79-0bf3-3e7e-915a-f7433bbb3840@skyefire.org> References: <62357d79-0bf3-3e7e-915a-f7433bbb3840@skyefire.org> Message-ID: <5182e0d4-93e2-4274-198c-e925843f8cd0@matija.com> On 27/11/2021 16:56, David McMillan wrote: > ?and /some/ solids are /technically /re-usable, I was going to say I haven't heard that, and ask you for examples, when it finally dawned on me that you said "re-usable" (which, technically, the Shuttle boosters were supposed to have been) and not "re-startable" which I think poses some really interesting challenges (unless you put firewalls in the engine, and basically pack multiple separated burn sequences in one housing). Were there any re-startable solid rocket engines? I don't think there were. > while until recently liquid engines in actual flight use were used > either disposably, or needed such a complete rebuild that buying a > brand-new replacement would have been cheaper. You're right. I've been following Scott Manley and "The everyday astronaut" and learning more about how rocket engines work, but until you wrote that it never actually hit me what a big difference is between engines that only need to spin up once (almost every engine I can name), and those meant to be re-used (like the Merlin engines). Theoretically, the Raptor engines, too, but those have not yet had to demonstrate it. And, you know, it is easy to get blase about turbopumps and other components, but I was watching a video about the mechanical details of V2 (whose engine would today be considered tiny), and they mentioned that the initial fuel pumps were made by people who made pumps for fire fighters. It wasn't until then that the actual scale hit me. From loisaletafundis at gmail.com Sat Nov 27 20:11:19 2021 From: loisaletafundis at gmail.com (Lois Aleta Fundis) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 15:11:19 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Louis Who? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There do seem to be many people who don't realize that Lois is a name by itself, and not a misspelling or mis pronunciation of "Louis", and is to boot a feminine name. It's even in the Bible! 2nd Timothy mentions Timothy's mother, named Eunice, and his grandmother -- presumably Eunice's mother -- whose name is Lois. Which makes "Lois" a much older name, by several centuries, than "Louis", which does not seem to have existed until the Middle Ages in France and nearby parts of Europe. On Sat, Nov 27, 2021 at 12:41 AM Lois Bujold wrote: > Somewhere upthread someone was talking about the chronic issue of SF > readers who somehow have never heard of my work, which I dub the "Louis > Who?" problem. A quick shorthand reply might usefully include this link: > > http://www.sfadb.com/Lois_McMaster_Bujold > > (Because I'd really rather the work spoke for me.) > > Ta, L. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to loisaletafundis at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois Aleta Fundis loisaletafundis at gmail.com "No one you have ever been and no place you have ever gone ever leaves you. The new parts of you simply jump in the car and go along for the rest of the ride." -- Bruce Springsteen From howard at brazee.net Sat Nov 27 22:52:52 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 15:52:52 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Testing Message-ID: My e-mail has been held, awaiting moderation this last week or so. So I?m testing by sending this with two of my e-mail addresses. This one is from the e-mail address I?ve been using for years on this forum, howard at brazee.net . From fishman at panix.com Sat Nov 27 22:55:27 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 22:55:27 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That one came through. What address should I send to in order to test? Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "Howard Brazee" To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 11/27/2021 5:52:52 PM Subject: [LMB] Testing > >My e-mail has been held, awaiting moderation this last week or so. So I?m testing by sending this with two of my e-mail addresses. This one is from the e-mail address I?ve been using for years on this forum, howard at brazee.net . > > >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From skyefire at skyefire.org Sat Nov 27 23:56:07 2021 From: skyefire at skyefire.org (David McMillan) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 18:56:07 -0500 Subject: [LMB] AKICOTL: Word usage question In-Reply-To: <5182e0d4-93e2-4274-198c-e925843f8cd0@matija.com> References: <62357d79-0bf3-3e7e-915a-f7433bbb3840@skyefire.org> <5182e0d4-93e2-4274-198c-e925843f8cd0@matija.com> Message-ID: <779674ca-53da-26c5-4924-3b83badfe3e8@skyefire.org> On 11/27/2021 2:29 PM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > On 27/11/2021 16:56, David McMillan wrote: >> ?and /some/ solids are /technically /re-usable, > > I was going to say I haven't heard that, and ask you for examples, > when it finally dawned on me that you said > > "re-usable" (which, technically, the Shuttle boosters were supposed to > have been) and not "re-startable" which I think poses some really > interesting challenges (unless you put firewalls in the engine, and > basically pack multiple separated burn sequences in one housing). > > Were there any re-startable solid rocket engines? I don't think there > were. ??? Given the Wild West of rocket motor development in the 50s and 60s, I'd be amazed if no one ever tried it, at least as a technology test demo.?? But just adding a separate stage is so simple and robust, I don't recall ever hearing of such a thing. ??? Most re-startable "solids" I can recall ever hearing of were really some type of hybrid. >> while until recently liquid engines in actual flight use were used >> either disposably, or needed such a complete rebuild that buying a >> brand-new replacement would have been cheaper. > > You're right. I've been following Scott Manley and "The everyday > astronaut" and learning more about how rocket engines work, but until > you wrote that it never actually hit me what a big difference is > between engines that only need to spin up once (almost every engine I > can name), and those meant to be re-used (like the Merlin engines). > Theoretically, the Raptor engines, too, but those have not yet had to > demonstrate it. ??? Scott and Tim are among the best educational resources on this topic. ??? Raptors have demonstrated multiple restarts with orbital-duration burns, but only on the test stand so far.? We've also seen several restarts with very short burns in Boca Chica on the B4/S20 stack.? But the only /flight/ re-light of Raptors we've seen were during the various suborbital tests. ??? Of course, getting a good relight while flying backwards at high Mach will be a horse of another color.? But this is one of the areas where SpaceX has more experience than anyone else on Earth, so there's every reason to expect they'll get it to work eventually.? But it'll take losing a few (or more) Starthips and Boosters to get there -- there's no wind tunnel for this. > > And, you know, it is easy to get blase about turbopumps and other > components, but I was watching a video about the mechanical details of > V2 (whose engine would today be considered tiny), and they mentioned > that the initial fuel pumps were made by people who made pumps for > fire fighters. It wasn't until then that the actual scale hit me. ??? In the 1930s, firefighting probably was the main center of competence in making high-flow, high-pressure pumps.? Of course, pumping liquid oxygen was a /bit/ different than water, but you have to start somewhere. ??? The number of things von Braun's teams (first at Peenemunde, then later at Huntsville) had to work out just from intuition, guesswork, and sheer bloody-minded "throw random stuff at the wall until something sticks) is kind of staggering.? Like the injector/mixing setup .? No CDF or computer modelling there! From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Nov 28 10:31:17 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:31:17 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOTL: Word usage question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Many thanks to the responders; I think I have a slightly better idea of the differences now. You guys are wonderful! From lmb at matija.com Sun Nov 28 11:35:33 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:35:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOTL: Word usage question In-Reply-To: <779674ca-53da-26c5-4924-3b83badfe3e8@skyefire.org> References: <62357d79-0bf3-3e7e-915a-f7433bbb3840@skyefire.org> <5182e0d4-93e2-4274-198c-e925843f8cd0@matija.com> <779674ca-53da-26c5-4924-3b83badfe3e8@skyefire.org> Message-ID: <39897ce2-7f64-301d-f26e-9339d5fe7052@matija.com> On 27/11/2021 23:56, David McMillan wrote: > The number of things von Braun's teams (first at Peenemunde, then > later at Huntsville) had to work out just from intuition, guesswork, > and sheer bloody-minded "throw random stuff at the wall until > something sticks) is kind of staggering.? Like the injector/mixing > setup .? No CDF or computer modelling > there! Thanks for linking that series, it's a great way to spend a lazy Sunday geeking out. One of the numbers I got there was that the pump pushed 8 tons of propellant through in about a minute. A bit of googling says that modern fire fighter pumps pump 300-800 gallons per minute. Which is 3 tons of water per minute. So 8 tons of alcohol and liquid oxygen in a minute, with 1940s level of technology, is really impressive. From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Nov 28 17:45:46 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:45:46 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: paging Beatrice Otter Message-ID: You Have Been Meme'ed as making an intelligent observation about sibling rivalry. Cool. https://crabsarepeople.quora.com/Can-you-share-some-screenshots-worth-of-260002-11-upvotes-2 (for Beatrice's comment, scroll down a bit) From markgoldfield at hotmail.com Sun Nov 28 21:18:55 2021 From: markgoldfield at hotmail.com (Mark Goldfield) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 21:18:55 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT Mercedes Lackey Book on sale for cyber Monday Message-ID: Amazon in US has Briarheart for kindle on sale for $2.99 today and tomorrow. For those who enjoy other author's books at a discount. Happy reading. Mark https://www.amazon.com/Briarheart-Mercedes-Lackey-ebook/dp/B08W4ZWBXM/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr= From litalex at gmail.com Sun Nov 28 21:55:11 2021 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 16:55:11 -0500 Subject: [LMB] possible cure for type-1 diabetes? Message-ID: Hello, I recall other members mentioning they also have diabetes? Apparently someone with type-1 diabetes was supposedly cured by stem cell treatment. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/27/health/diabetes-cure-stem-cells.html little Alex