From alzurite at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 00:12:33 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 19:12:33 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Sep 2021, Harvey Fishman wrote: > To my mind, the whole object here is the preservation of masculine desire, > which is really quite fragile but without which the human race is doomed. > Feminine desire is calendar based and much more sure. Alayne (quite eloquently) > ROFLASC ... Myself, I just raised my eyebrows, and wondered what species Harvey thinks he was addressing. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From alzurite at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 00:17:29 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 19:17:29 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles Message-ID: Matt G said: > I can't speak as to whether women are more interested in sex at specific > parts of their cycle, but they do choose different kinds of partners at > different points. Really? What does that mean? What are "different kinds of partners"? Different genders? Different personality types? Different pheromones? In the course of a month? > It's known as one of the unintended consequences of > birth control pills. Wasn't known by me, and I've taken birth control pills. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 00:30:47 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 18:30:47 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: gender roles. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hot sausage, mild sausage, ham, bacon bits, Canadian bacon and pepperoni on a deep dish crust. NOM NOM NOM NOM! On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 5:10 PM Kathleen Morrison wrote: > Bacon, mushrooms but no anchovies... > Kathleen(laptop) > > > On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 5:01 PM Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 3:34 PM Kevin Kennedy > > wrote: > > > > > I call pizza on the discussion, or take it off list. Thinks are getting > > > rather harsh. > > > > > > > I would like my pizza with garlic, artichoke hearts, olives, and ground > > beef, thank you. > > > > > > Tony Z > > > > > > -- > > Tony Zbaraschuk > > Bookworm, talker, learner > > Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kathleen.morrison at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From greg.hennessy at cox.net Fri Oct 1 00:46:18 2021 From: greg.hennessy at cox.net (Greg Hennessy) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 19:46:18 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: <046e01d7b3c2$23e7a550$6bb6eff0$@charter.net> Message-ID: <99bf7c0c-dbd8-8594-af6d-16cac5f66fcc@cox.net> On 9/29/21 12:59, Eric Oppen wrote: > *mega-sigh* No, I'm serious. If they've got to have commissioned rank, > why not make one just for them? That way they don't get ideas about being > real soldiers. What sort of rank would you invent for them? Knorfle? Who outrankes a blerg? If you invent new ranks for the doctors, how does anyone recognize them? From jpolowin at hotmail.com Fri Oct 1 04:48:19 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 03:48:19 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Matija Grabnar wrote: > On 30/09/2021 18:50, Matthew George wrote: >> I wasn't aware you were a lesbian.? Huh. > > I wasn't aware that my sexuality was any of your business. I believe that that was intended to be an insult. > But I was aware that you are ignorant and prone to making wrong > assumptions, and you just proved that again. > > Just because the form of my name is not immediately familiar to you, and > looking it up would be beneath you, you made a wrong assumption and > built more assumptions on it. But terminal vowels in personal names *universally* code for "female". And as one of the one of the most noted documentarians of human sexuality in our field noted, "A girl's name ending in 'a' -- that always suggests a 'C' cup." Joel From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 05:16:20 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 23:16:20 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: <99bf7c0c-dbd8-8594-af6d-16cac5f66fcc@cox.net> References: <046e01d7b3c2$23e7a550$6bb6eff0$@charter.net> <99bf7c0c-dbd8-8594-af6d-16cac5f66fcc@cox.net> Message-ID: What's wrong with ranks called "Doctor" and "Nurse?" As for how to recognize them---doctors are easy to recognize. "How do you tell the difference between God and a doctor?" "God doesn't think he's a doctor." On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 6:46 PM Greg Hennessy wrote: > > > On 9/29/21 12:59, Eric Oppen wrote: > > *mega-sigh* No, I'm serious. If they've got to have commissioned rank, > > why not make one just for them? That way they don't get ideas about > being > > real soldiers. > > What sort of rank would you invent for them? Knorfle? Who outrankes a > blerg? > > If you invent new ranks for the doctors, how does anyone recognize them? > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Fri Oct 1 05:19:59 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 00:19:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Matija Message-ID: Bringing up images.google.com for "Matija", I see mostly male faces, but also a few female. So is Matija one of those Evelyn/Evelyn names? Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From hifenton at internode.on.net Fri Oct 1 06:11:16 2021 From: hifenton at internode.on.net (Helen Fenton) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 15:11:16 +1000 Subject: [LMB] OT: gender roles. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kind Regards, Helen Fenton > On 1 Oct 2021, at 9:32 am, Eric Oppen wrote: > > ?Hot sausage, mild sausage, ham, bacon bits, Canadian bacon and pepperoni > on a deep dish crust. NOM NOM NOM NOM! > >> On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 5:10 PM Kathleen Morrison >> wrote: >> >> Bacon, mushrooms but no anchovies... >> Kathleen(laptop) >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 5:01 PM Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold < >> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 3:34 PM Kevin Kennedy >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I call pizza on the discussion, or take it off list. Thinks are getting >>>> rather harsh. >>>> >>> >>> I would like my pizza with garlic, artichoke hearts, olives, and ground >>> beef, thank you. >>> >>> >>> Tony Z >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Tony Zbaraschuk >>> Bookworm, talker, learner >>> Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" >>> -- >>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kathleen.morrison at gmail.com >>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >>> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to hifenton at internode.on.net > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 07:37:17 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 01:37:17 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: automotive, was OT: Gender Roles , figures In-Reply-To: References: <20298e74-d6e5-f670-0eca-ba36b9c9e6e9.ref@aol.com> <20298e74-d6e5-f670-0eca-ba36b9c9e6e9@aol.com> Message-ID: In Europe cars were smaller then American cars, especially in the 1970s when I visited Germany. I remember getting a bit of culture shock each time I arrived back in the States and saw those huge American cars. My German Grandparents had a Opal. And my American Grandparents had a 975 Ford Galaxy 500. A land yacht compared to the Opal. On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 9:52 AM Louann Miller wrote: > On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 9:11 AM Eric Oppen > wrote: > > > I've a theory that "women are bad drivers" thing got started partly > > because early automobiles DID need muscle to keep them under proper > > control. I've driven a few vintage cars myself, and they're tougher to > > drive than modern ones. > > > > That's why I mentioned the power steering/power brakes theory. I did a > little of my very first practice driving in a 1963 Chevrolet owned by our > family, and I agree with your assessment. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From lmb at matija.com Fri Oct 1 07:40:22 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 07:40:22 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Matija In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63e7db3d-8d3f-3b91-9466-c79f39d2c765@matija.com> On 01/10/2021 05:19, alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: > Bringing up images.google.com for "Matija", I see mostly male faces, > but also a few female. No, looking at images.google.com, it looks like one of the female faces is a model on "matija.world" shopping website, and the other is a model of a photographer, where Matija is the photographer's name. > So is Matija one of those Evelyn/Evelyn names? No, but there is a female form (the same was as the French have Jean/Jeanne), which I won't quote, since Matthew George would only use it as an insult. Funnily enough, when I search for the female form of the name on images.google.com I see plenty of male faces in the results. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 11:24:24 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 05:24:24 -0500 Subject: [LMB] The heroine's journey In-Reply-To: References: <1FF19547-771E-4D77-B26F-490642C02EFC@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: Frankly I don't think he thought of women heroines. He was firmly rooted in the ancient stories of Gilgamesh, Odysseys, Jason, Ivanhoe! Etc. Women in these tales were allies and supporters of these "Heroes". Infact, in many times ancient stories the Woman were the catalyst such as Helen in the "Illiad" as well as alies in Odysseus. Sad to say we have lived in a Male dominated society for a long, long time. However because of these conversations we have come to recognize those inequalities in our society. I'm optimistic that we will finally reach equality. We just have to work together on what constitute a equal society. On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 12:47 PM Matthew George wrote: > On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 12:21 AM Sylvia McIvers > wrote: > > > Although I've heard that Cambell, though not notably misogynist, simply > had > > no place for women in his stories. > > > > It would be fairer to say that the mythologies he studied had little place > for women. Although there are some exceptions - cultures at the edge of > survival often have distinct behaviors and roles for men and women, but > place equal emphasis and importance on them. And in those cultures women > can often be replaced by men, and vice versa, in traditional stories. But > most of the time, old stories have guys playing the heroes. > > Matt G. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 1 12:42:47 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 05:42:47 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1BB41D94-B400-44D2-B6A6-1C2E929AEAF5@brazee.net> > On Sep 30, 2021, at 9:48 PM, Joel Polowin wrote: > > But terminal vowels in personal names *universally* code for "female". > And as one of the one of the most noted documentarians of human > sexuality in our field noted, "A girl's name ending in 'a' -- that > always suggests a 'C' cup.? It?s odd that ?Dana? is a name accepted by both genders. (There are other exceptions too) From proto at panix.com Fri Oct 1 13:32:14 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 08:32:14 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C8B3724-160D-4201-BB2E-485EA7F0D5CB@panix.com> > On Sep 30, 2021, at 11:48 PM, Joel Polowin wrote: > > But terminal vowels in personal names *universally* code for "female". > And as one of the one of the most noted documentarians of human > sexuality in our field noted, "A girl's name ending in 'a' -- that > always suggests a 'C' cup." > > Joel Stranger in a Strang Land as a documentary??? ? ?Of all the means to insure happiness throughout the whole life, by far the most important is the acquisition of friends.? ~Epicurus From proto at panix.com Fri Oct 1 13:36:50 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 08:36:50 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: <046e01d7b3c2$23e7a550$6bb6eff0$@charter.net> <99bf7c0c-dbd8-8594-af6d-16cac5f66fcc@cox.net> Message-ID: <5390F161-16C8-4303-9B11-E93907BFFC29@panix.com> > On Oct 1, 2021, at 12:16 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > What's wrong with ranks called "Doctor" and "Nurse?" > > As for how to recognize them---doctors are easy to recognize. > > "How do you tell the difference between God and a doctor?" > > ?God doesn't think he's a doctor." A man goes to Heaven and finds the administration lacking. He asks an angel what?s wrong. ?See that woman over there? She?s actually God, but we are having a hard time convincing Her she?s not a doctor.? ? The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret. ? Terry Pratchett, The Truth From wawenri at msn.com Fri Oct 1 13:39:00 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 12:39:00 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: <345AE8F5-01A5-4A23-BDE7-C19D3816A6E1@brazee.net> References: <32C56A39-BD89-4751-B1A1-5ED27E23AE40@brazee.net> <345AE8F5-01A5-4A23-BDE7-C19D3816A6E1@brazee.net> Message-ID: Looks like another thread that has descended into insult and recrimination. Is it possible for us to discuss things we feel strongly about without getting nasty? Gwynne and I disagree about a lot of things yet I consider her a friend, one that I am very worried about at the moment. She has never insulted or anyone else on the list in my recollection. Could we all, please, follow her example. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of brazee Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2021 3:04:09 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles > On Sep 30, 2021, at 12:59 PM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Lesbians are not the only people who are attracted to women. Even strong, intelligent women. I suspect that it is more common for men to have male buddies and women to have female buddies than the not. If it weren?t for sex and procreation, living partners would be of the same gender more often than not. My best friend is my wife, but who knows if that would be the case if I weren?t heterosexual. I like an observation I read one time about class. When two couples take a car ride, they pick different seat positions depending on their class: Lower class have the men in front and the women in back. Middle class have one couple in front and the other couple in back. Upper class split couples, with a husband and the other guy?s wife in the same seat. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C8e7bc0f0daec4b208d8608d98455e125%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637686326648047704%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Z0IiAlxkndEklHNooN560uHKxAdE%2BW651XH%2BZZMS9wY%3D&reserved=0 From becca7108 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 13:45:09 2021 From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 08:45:09 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I converted from Becky to Becca when I was 40, because I saw how older adults with a -y or -ie ending to their name are treated, and I didn't like it. On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 11:48 PM Joel Polowin wrote: > But terminal vowels in personal names *universally* code for "female". > And as one of the one of the most noted documentarians of human > sexuality in our field noted, "A girl's name ending in 'a' -- that > always suggests a 'C' cup." > Nope, doesn't fit me. -Flat-chested Becca. From egern at protonmail.com Fri Oct 1 17:41:03 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 16:41:03 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: <94852592-fb18-9aee-7602-8ef2b455e7cc@matija.com> Message-ID: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Thursday, September 30th, 2021 at 9:10 PM, Louann Miller wrote: > On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 1:43 PM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > On 30/09/2021 18:59, Harvey Fishman wrote: > > > > > A man who feels badly about himself will lose his sexual desire. That > > > > > > is mental. I do not understand why this remark is causing so much reaction. It goes for all of us, doesn't it? And it did for Ekaterin too. T From egern at protonmail.com Fri Oct 1 17:45:49 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 16:45:49 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Friday, October 1st, 2021 at 1:12 AM, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > On Thu, 30 Sep 2021, Harvey Fishman wrote: > > > To my mind, the whole object here is the preservation of masculine desire, > > > > which is really quite fragile but without which the human race is doomed. > > > > Feminine desire is calendar based and much more sure. > > Alayne (quite eloquently) > > > ROFLASC ... > > Myself, I just raised my eyebrows, and wondered what species Harvey thinks > > he was addressing. I read it as 'if humans can't procreate, there isn't much future. And if one party cannot function, then it does not work.. T From egern at protonmail.com Fri Oct 1 17:50:32 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 16:50:32 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Matija In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Friday, October 1st, 2021 at 6:19 AM, wrote: > Bringing up images.google.com for "Matija", I see mostly male faces, but > > also a few female. > > So is Matija one of those Evelyn/Evelyn names? > > Alayne Ashley? Kim? T From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 17:55:54 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 12:55:54 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Matija In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 12:50 PM tidsel via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > On Friday, October 1st, 2021 at 6:19 AM, > wrote: > > > Bringing up images.google.com for "Matija", I see mostly male faces, but > > > > also a few female. > > > > So is Matija one of those Evelyn/Evelyn names? > > > > Alayne > > Ashley? Kim? > Let me add Sandy & Robin/Robyn. And our own listee Kevin, who is not a boy. Sylvia From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 17:58:33 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 11:58:33 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: automotive, was OT: Gender Roles , figures In-Reply-To: References: <20298e74-d6e5-f670-0eca-ba36b9c9e6e9.ref@aol.com> <20298e74-d6e5-f670-0eca-ba36b9c9e6e9@aol.com> Message-ID: I've noticed that too. Part of the reason, IMO, is that Americans depend more on cars to get around with. Much of the US is not really suited to things like passenger trains. Another reason is that the centers of a lot of European cities were laid out centuries before automobiles came along, and to get through those narrow, often-twisty streets, you need a small, nippy car. When my dad and I were driving through Norway in 1989, we had a British Ford Fiesta. On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 1:37 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > In Europe cars were smaller then American cars, especially in the 1970s > when I visited Germany. I remember getting a bit of culture shock each > time I arrived back in the States and saw those huge American cars. My > German Grandparents had a Opal. And my American Grandparents had a 975 Ford > Galaxy 500. A land yacht compared to the Opal. > > On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 9:52 AM Louann Miller wrote: > > > On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 9:11 AM Eric Oppen > > wrote: > > > > > I've a theory that "women are bad drivers" thing got started partly > > > because early automobiles DID need muscle to keep them under proper > > > control. I've driven a few vintage cars myself, and they're tougher > to > > > drive than modern ones. > > > > > > > That's why I mentioned the power steering/power brakes theory. I did a > > little of my very first practice driving in a 1963 Chevrolet owned by our > > family, and I agree with your assessment. > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From jpolowin at hotmail.com Fri Oct 1 18:37:30 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 17:37:30 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles Message-ID: Becca Price (becca7108 at gmail.com) wrote: > I converted from Becky to Becca when I was 40, because I saw how older > adults with a -y or -ie ending to their name are treated, and I didn't like > it. > > On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 11:48 PM Joel Polowin wrote: >> But terminal vowels in personal names *universally* code for "female". >> And as one of the one of the most noted documentarians of human >> sexuality in our field noted, "A girl's name ending in 'a' -- that >> always suggests a 'C' cup." > Nope, doesn't fit me. > > -Flat-chested Becca. Were you expecting that you could change your cup size by changing your name? That sounds like Piers Anthony channelling late-period Heinlein. It would wreak havoc in the plastic-surgery industry, while boosting the bra industry (and other clothing industries) and bogging down the government records systems. :-) I'm now trying to get the back of my brain away from figuring out relevant quasi-punning Xanth titles. WalterStuartBushell (proto at panix.com) wrote: > Stranger in a Strang Land as a documentary??? I've been assured by female fannish friends that an annoying proportion of male fans seem to treat late-period Heinlein as their model for approaching and relating to female fans. Joel From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 18:44:01 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 13:44:01 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gentlefolk of the list, Pizza was called for Gender Roles. Can anyone posting interesting (non flame-bait) conversations please change the subject line? Thank you OverQuote Tixie (Retired) From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 19:07:59 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 14:07:59 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 7:17 PM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Really? What does that mean? What are "different kinds of partners"? > Different genders? Different personality types? Different pheromones? In > the course of a month? > When women are fertile, whether they consciously realize it or not, they tend to choose sexual partners that would be seen as better long-term investments, whether emotionally or financially. When they're not fertile, they're more likely to choose superficial features: 'sexiness', basically. Men who aren't certain whether they're the father of a child are more likely to contribute something to its upkeep and less likely to harm it than if they're sure it's not theirs (in the ancestral environment, it's argued). So it's believed that one evolutionary strategy is to sleep with lots of men, and leave them all wondering. But it's still desirable to try for mates who are likely to feel responsibility for the child, rather than just pass through the area or disregard the mother and child. Birth control pills work by manipulating the hormones controlling menstruation, making the uterus incapable of accepting implantation; put another way, women aren't in the hormonal condition that normally permits fertility. Which doesn't just affect the uterus, but the brain - women taking birth control pills don't manifest the unconscious difference in mate preference, because as far as their bodies are concerned they're always in their infertile period, and the trigger for preferring less exciting mates is never activated. The effect is subtle but real. People have speculated as to the consequences for dating and relationships in the affluent world, but to the best of my knowledge no one's managed to demonstrate, or exclude, any particular implication. Research on that scale is difficult at best, and there are so many conflicting factors that verifying a change in infidelity, for example, is next to impossible. Wasn't known by me, and I've taken birth control pills. > Known by psychologists. Although again, real-world effects aren't known with much degree of certainty. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 19:12:06 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 14:12:06 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The heroine's journey In-Reply-To: References: <1FF19547-771E-4D77-B26F-490642C02EFC@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: To make a just society, we would first have to understand the factors that produce injustice with such consistency. Without knowing and acknowledging the truth, directed change is impossible. Unfortunately, "acknowledging truth" isn't high on the list of human priorities; it's well below "cling to comforting delusions" and "exert political power through dogma". On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 6:24 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > I'm optimistic that we will finally reach equality. > We just have to work together on what constitute a equal society. > From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 19:21:48 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 14:21:48 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 Message-ID: Remember the Spirit Ring? The discussion we're meant to be having, that produced the gender roles tangent? The one no one is bringing up? So: Chapter 3. It's not at all clear to me that the making of spirit rings can ever be good, even if the person imbued gives permission, given what must be done to preserve the soul. The mortality of souls is a point on which this story diverges from, say, traditional Catholic doctrine. Traditional Christian doctrine, really. It's curious that the salt-and-pepper shaker's powers never come into the story. In the light of what we eventually learn about the pepper side's power, it's a little surprising that it doesn't seem to be involved in the disastrous conflict and its fallout. Chekhov's Gun isn't a hard and fast principle, but never using an introduced element is an odd choice, even though it makes the story somewhat more realistic. Matt G. From k.m.allis at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 19:25:57 2021 From: k.m.allis at gmail.com (Katrina Long) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 19:25:57 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you very much! A lovely energetic and distracting day after a tough couple of weeks. It was very nice to swim there and definitely needed by the end of the day. I may have distracted everyone from the planned activities and made the mistake of mentioning that you can forage and pick rose hips and use them to make jam and liqueur - with due care given the hairs inside have been used for itching powder. I don't think any of the young people were interested in making jam or fruit liqueur, but Miles' Brilliant idea involved mass harvesting... We may have got a bit scratched, but fortunately the Vorkosigans keep a well-stocked medical cabinet. I do hope Miles and Ivan aren't going to use the hairs as itching powder on each other. I saw some rosehips being confiscated, but not sure all were found. Dinner was lovely. I tried a bit of the vat meat and couldn't tell the difference, but the veggies were so good. Even before Ma Kosti, the Vorkosgians had an excellent cook. Katrina - (Small cat Glimmer was hit by a car Monday week ago: she was found by someone who tried to get her help, but she died on the way to the vet. She wasn't quite three. I still feel like she will come back in, unapologetic, meowing for fuss, food, more fuss in that order as she's done in the past. Her sister Artemis seems fine . Plus we just missed out on NZ MIQ spots for December on Tuesday. But there'll be more chances for the MIQ slots, and next year might be easier.) On Thu, 30 Sept 2021 at 06:30, Eric Oppen wrote: > The Birthday Tixie comes in, pulling a few stray leaves that fell on him > out of his hair, and announces: > > Today, September 30, is the anniversary of the birth in 1982 of our fellow > listie Katrina Allis. > > For your birthday, Katrina, you get to spend the day with Young!Miles, > Young!Ivan, Young!Elena and Young!Gregor at Vorkosigan Surleau. The > weather is warm and inviting, the water is cool and refreshing should you > want to swim, and there are all sorts of activities planned. One that is > not planned, but happens at every one of these events, is "Protect Miles > from his latest Brilliant Idea." > > Afterward, you are invited to a quiet family dinner with Lord Aral, Lady > Cordelia, and all the young people, featuring the finest Barrayaran > cuisine, as well as vat-meat for Lady Cordelia. If you want to, you can > try the vat-meat, or stick with the real stuff---or not eat meat at all, as > you prefer. > > And with this, the Tixie goes off for a while, handing his duties over to > the next in line. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to k.m.allis at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Prayer, he suspected as he hoisted himself up and turned for the door, was putting one foot in front of the other. Moving all the same. Lois McMaster Bujold, _Curse of Chalion_ From wetair at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 19:33:46 2021 From: wetair at gmail.com (Ruchira Mathur) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 14:33:46 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The more you speak, the more I become convinced that you inhabit a different universe. On Fri, Oct 1, 2021, 2:06 PM Matthew George wrote: > On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 7:17 PM Elizabeth Holden > wrote: > > > Really? What does that mean? What are "different kinds of partners"? > > Different genders? Different personality types? Different pheromones? In > > the course of a month? > > > > When women are fertile, whether they consciously realize it or not, they > tend to choose sexual partners that would be seen as better long-term > investments, whether emotionally or financially. When they're not fertile, > they're more likely to choose superficial features: 'sexiness', basically. > > Men who aren't certain whether they're the father of a child are more > likely to contribute something to its upkeep and less likely to harm it > than if they're sure it's not theirs (in the ancestral environment, it's > argued). So it's believed that one evolutionary strategy is to sleep with > lots of men, and leave them all wondering. But it's still desirable to try > for mates who are likely to feel responsibility for the child, rather than > just pass through the area or disregard the mother and child. > > Birth control pills work by manipulating the hormones controlling > menstruation, making the uterus incapable of accepting implantation; put > another way, women aren't in the hormonal condition that normally permits > fertility. Which doesn't just affect the uterus, but the brain - women > taking birth control pills don't manifest the unconscious difference in > mate preference, because as far as their bodies are concerned they're > always in their infertile period, and the trigger for preferring less > exciting mates is never activated. > > The effect is subtle but real. People have speculated as to the > consequences for dating and relationships in the affluent world, but to the > best of my knowledge no one's managed to demonstrate, or exclude, any > particular implication. Research on that scale is difficult at best, and > there are so many conflicting factors that verifying a change in > infidelity, for example, is next to impossible. > > Wasn't known by me, and I've taken birth control pills. > > > > Known by psychologists. Although again, real-world effects aren't known > with much degree of certainty. > > Matt G. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wetair at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From kawyle at att.net Fri Oct 1 19:40:54 2021 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 18:40:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <276560927.946889.1633113654496@mail.yahoo.com> Katrina, I'm so sorry about Glimmer. I hope you and Artemis can take comfort in each other's company. Karen A. Wyle On Friday, October 1, 2021, 02:26:22 PM EDT, Katrina Long wrote: - (Small cat Glimmer was hit by a car Monday week ago: she was found by someone who tried to get her help, but she died on the way to the vet.? She wasn't quite three.? I still feel like she will come back in, unapologetic, meowing for fuss, food, more fuss in that order as she's done in the past. Her sister Artemis seems fine .? Plus we just missed out on NZ? MIQ spots for December on Tuesday.? But there'll be more chances for the MIQ slots, and next year might be easier.) From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 20:52:14 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 15:52:14 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I once found it shocking how little people knew about basic psychology - the kind of knowledge you get from picking up a textbook for a 101 college course. I don't find it shocking any longer. http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/unify_uploads/files/Gildersleeve%20et%20al.%20meta-analysis%20in%20press%20Psych%20Bull%20PROOFS%202.23.14.pdf https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/272697#Evolutionary-adaptation I also used to find it shocking that people would adopt positions, in online discussions, that a moment or two of using a search engine would refute - such as that there were no people, or no professionals, or no particular-type-of-scientists, arguing in favor of a hypothesis. Certainly anyone could make a mistake in a moment, but surely people would at least take a moment to check very strong assertions, or would want to avoid a claim that could be trivially refuted? I'm not shocked any more, and I don't expect that any more. We don't inhabit the same worlds, Ruchira Mathur. You are absolutely right. Matt "try visiting reality, once in a while" G. From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Fri Oct 1 22:49:38 2021 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 21:49:38 +0000 Subject: [LMB] ot: Stephen Fry on Georgette Heyer Message-ID: <5dd4428c-a616-3578-6c8d-6f5d7601db4b@mindspring.com> Stephen Fry waxes eloquent on the enduring appeal of Georgette Heyer. ? https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/oct/01/stephen-fry-on-the-enduring-appeal-of-georgette-heyer ? Jerrie From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 22:57:22 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 16:57:22 -0500 Subject: [LMB] PIZZA, OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: <077501d7b63d$c118b080$434a1180$@charter.net> Message-ID: Yum yum! On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 5:21 PM wrote: > And the pizza we had most recently was > > - homemade white/WW crust with a bit of cornmeal added > - tomato sauce made of San Marzano-style tomatos, drained through a > strainer of excess juice, run through the blender with 3 Tbsp tomato > paste, herbs, and a touch hot sauce > - sliced tomatoes, black olives, crumbled feta cheese, and shredded > mozzarella cheese on top > > Delicious, though I would put less sauce on next time. > > -- > Alayne McGregor > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > > What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We > need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the > institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate > and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From margdean56 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 23:01:10 2021 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 16:01:10 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 12:19 PM Matthew George wrote: > > So: Chapter 3. > > > > It's curious that the salt-and-pepper shaker's powers never come into the > story. In the light of what we eventually learn about the pepper side's > power, it's a little surprising that it doesn't seem to be involved in the > disastrous conflict and its fallout. Chekhov's Gun isn't a hard and fast > principle, but never using an introduced element is an odd choice, even > though it makes the story somewhat more realistic. > On the contrary, the test of the pepper side ends up handing the "good guys" an important piece of information; since that's quite a few chapters away, I won't specify right now. --Margaret Dean From saffronrose at me.com Fri Oct 1 23:19:18 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 15:19:18 -0700 Subject: [LMB] ot: Stephen Fry on Georgette Heyer In-Reply-To: <5dd4428c-a616-3578-6c8d-6f5d7601db4b@mindspring.com> References: <5dd4428c-a616-3578-6c8d-6f5d7601db4b@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Oct 1, 2021, at 2:49 PM, adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com wrote: > > ?Stephen Fry waxes eloquent on the enduring appeal of Georgette Heyer. > > https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/oct/01/stephen-fry-on-the-enduring-appeal-of-georgette-heyer Fry has always rather liked Heyer. Last weekend at (Renaissance Pleasure)Faire, I saw a younger blonder fellow whose face reminded me of him. I told him that, and he said he was flattered. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From wetair at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 23:39:53 2021 From: wetair at gmail.com (Ruchira Mathur) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 18:39:53 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm honored by your full use of my name. ? Interesting articles. I've encountered their like before and I suppose I thought of them as pop science with a little kernel of truth. And I am, I am, but I don't think you are. On Fri, Oct 1, 2021, 3:50 PM Matthew George wrote: > I once found it shocking how little people knew about basic psychology - > the kind of knowledge you get from picking up a textbook for a 101 college > course. I don't find it shocking any longer. > > > http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/unify_uploads/files/Gildersleeve%20et%20al.%20meta-analysis%20in%20press%20Psych%20Bull%20PROOFS%202.23.14.pdf > > https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/272697#Evolutionary-adaptation > > I also used to find it shocking that people would adopt positions, in > online discussions, that a moment or two of using a search engine would > refute - such as that there were no people, or no professionals, or no > particular-type-of-scientists, arguing in favor of a hypothesis. Certainly > anyone could make a mistake in a moment, but surely people would at least > take a moment to check very strong assertions, or would want to avoid a > claim that could be trivially refuted? I'm not shocked any more, and I > don't expect that any more. > > We don't inhabit the same worlds, Ruchira Mathur. You are absolutely > right. > > Matt "try visiting reality, once in a while" G. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wetair at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From vanlook19 at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 01:19:40 2021 From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 17:19:40 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > On Thu, 30 Sep 2021, Harvey Fishman wrote: > > > > > To my mind, the whole object here is the preservation of masculine > desire, > > > which is really quite fragile but without which the human race is > doomed. > > > > > > Feminine desire is calendar based and much more sure. > On Friday, October 1st, 2021 at 1:12 AM, Elizabeth Holden < > alzurite at gmail.com> wrote: > > Myself, I just raised my eyebrows, and wondered what species Harvey thinks > > he was addressing. On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 9:46 AM tidsel via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > I read it as 'if humans can't procreate, there isn't much future. And if > one party cannot function, then it does not work.. > Then you are very likely the exception to the rule, as Harvey's statement shows a very limited understanding of female sexuality as a majority of female-bodied people on this list experience it. This flavor of misunderstanding is painfully and all-too-frequently common. Female desire has been documented as FAR more based in cognition and mental space than Harvey states (calendar-based? seriously?!?!), FAR more based in cognition and mental space than *male* sexuality. Two books that can help clear up exactly that kind of mis-information and improve understanding of female sexuality and desire, for those with the courage to open them: Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science that Will Transform Your Sex Life by Emily Nagoski https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LD1ORBI and The Pleasure Gap: American Women and the Unfinished Sexual Revolution by Katherine Rowland https://www.amazon.com/Pleasure-Gap-American-Unfinished-Revolution-ebook/dp/B07RKW3FZ7 BJ From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 01:59:47 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 19:59:47 -0500 Subject: [LMB] ot: Stephen Fry on Georgette Heyer In-Reply-To: References: <5dd4428c-a616-3578-6c8d-6f5d7601db4b@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Fascinating article. I like Georgette Hayer's prose. I'm currently reading M. C. Beaton's Agatha Raisin series. I think I'll read some more Georgette Heyer books. On Fri, Oct 1, 2021, 5:19 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Oct 1, 2021, at 2:49 PM, adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com wrote: > > > > ?Stephen Fry waxes eloquent on the enduring appeal of Georgette Heyer. > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/oct/01/stephen-fry-on-the-enduring-appeal-of-georgette-heyer > > Fry has always rather liked Heyer. > > Last weekend at (Renaissance Pleasure)Faire, I saw a younger blonder > fellow whose face reminded me of him. I told him that, and he said he was > flattered. > > A. Marina Fournier > saffronrose at me.com > Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e > Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA > Sent from iFionnghuala > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 02:58:46 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 20:58:46 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixie In-Reply-To: <276560927.946889.1633113654496@mail.yahoo.com> References: <276560927.946889.1633113654496@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Condolences over Glimmer. May she find her way to an afterlife of slow mice, lots of friendly laps to sit in, and people who know how to treat a cat. On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 1:41 PM Karen A. Wyle wrote: > Katrina, I'm so sorry about Glimmer. I hope you and Artemis can take > comfort in each other's company. > Karen A. Wyle > On Friday, October 1, 2021, 02:26:22 PM EDT, Katrina Long < > k.m.allis at gmail.com> wrote: > > - > (Small cat Glimmer was hit by a car Monday week ago: she was found by > someone who tried to get her help, but she died on the way to the vet. She > wasn't quite three. I still feel like she will come back in, unapologetic, > meowing for fuss, food, more fuss in that order as she's done in the past. > Her sister Artemis seems fine . Plus we just missed out on NZ MIQ spots > for December on Tuesday. But there'll be more chances for the MIQ slots, > and next year might be easier.) > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From saffronrose at me.com Sat Oct 2 05:14:20 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 21:14:20 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Rocktoberfest Message-ID: Hey, Kevin! Spend time at Rock City, drinking beer with endless arrays of garden gnomes. My deranged husband is on their mailing list. Some of you traveling around Tennessee may have seen signs exhorting you to See Rock City. Kevin mentioned this a bit before we each had to shift house. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 10:40:50 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 04:40:50 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Sorry, Cordelia! Here, have a real steak. In-Reply-To: References: <202109271134.18RBYEPu018957@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: Sounds tasty. On Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 10:07 PM wrote: > We were given some Beyond Meat "Beyond Sausage - mild Italian" plant-based > links, and tried them out tonight. The taste was very close to Italian > sausage, and the texture was not too far from meaty. Not greasy enough, > but others may consider that an advantage. My SO really liked them; I > thought they were OK and better than other non-meat products I'd had. > > We pan-fried them which tended to stick; I think they might have been > better grilled. > > Alayne > > On Tue, 28 Sep 2021, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > I've had the Impossible Whopper which uses plant based protein and > > flavoured and textured to taste and feel like beef. Actually it tasted > > pretty much like beef and I quite enjoyed. I don't know if it will > replace > > the real animals but it's a bit more climate friendly. > > > > On Mon, Sep 27, 2021, 6:34 AM James M. BRYANT G4CLF > > wrote: > > > >> Lois Herself wrote:- > >> > >> > Plunkins.? Which contain protein/the compete list of necessary > >> > amino acids, all the critical vitamins including C, and for a bonus, > >> > fiber. Perfect food bars. And bioengineered, with the WGW > >> > magic-science way back when before the fall of that civilization. > >> > >> > Complete-protein plants would do the job, if they could be made > >> > palatable and not boring. > >> > >> Jason Long wrote:- > >> > >> > The real problem appears to be that meat cells require pharma-grade > >> > precursors and technology to produce and the processes are vastly > >> > different and more complex than making vaccines. > >> > >> > >> There are a lot of medical/biological procedures which were originally > >> done as expensive and complex in-patient/in-laboratory operations and > >> are now safely and cheaply done in the surgery or even in the home. > >> > >> Lois's plunkins probably cost a helluva lot to develop but now need > >> merely to be planted (and have their ground tweaked) and then grow. > >> If the civilization had not fallen what's the odds that a range of > >> tastier plunkins, with many textures, might have been developed? > >> > >> Once you know something can be done, doing it cheaper and better is > >> usually a matter of time (and demand - people will go to a lot of > >> trouble to produce something that everyone needs, less so if only > >> a few people will ever be interested). > >> > >> James - who does not insist on "meat" from an animal, but does demand > >> the best possible flavour, texture, nourishment and price. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > >> > > > > -- > Alayne McGregor > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > > What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We > need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the > institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate > and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 10:45:13 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 04:45:13 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Discussion topics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Gwynne. I haven't heard from you. I hope your doing okay? On Sun, Jul 18, 2021, 6:57 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Raymond Collins > > I remember the Punctuation Wars. I was the first casualty. I was in a comma > for months. > > Gwynne: Ohhhh!!! Ok, you deserve an award for that one! > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 2 12:11:07 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:11:07 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Saturday, October 2nd, 2021 at 02:19, B Van Look wrote: > > > On Thu, 30 Sep 2021, Harvey Fishman wrote: > > > > > > > To my mind, the whole object here is the preservation of masculine > > > > > > > > desire, > > > > > > > which is really quite fragile but without which the human race is > > > > > > > > doomed. > > > > > > > Feminine desire is calendar based and much more sure. > > On Friday, October 1st, 2021 at 1:12 AM, Elizabeth Holden < > > > alzurite at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Myself, I just raised my eyebrows, and wondered what species Harvey thinks > > > > > he was addressing. > > On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 9:46 AM tidsel via Lois-Bujold < > > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > I read it as 'if humans can't procreate, there isn't much future. And if > > > > one party cannot function, then it does not work.. > > Then you are very likely the exception to the rule, as Harvey's statement > > shows a very limited understanding of female sexuality as a majority of > > female-bodied people on this list experience it. This flavor of > > misunderstanding is painfully and all-too-frequently common. > > Female desire has been documented as FAR more based in cognition and mental > > space than Harvey states (calendar-based? seriously?!?!), FAR more based in > > cognition and mental space than male sexuality. > > Two books that can help clear up exactly that kind of mis-information and > > improve understanding of female sexuality and desire, for those with the > > courage to open them: > > Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science that Will Transform Your Sex > > Life > > by Emily Nagoski > > https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LD1ORBI > > and > > The Pleasure Gap: American Women and the Unfinished Sexual Revolution > > by Katherine Rowland > > https://www.amazon.com/Pleasure-Gap-American-Unfinished-Revolution-ebook/dp/B07RKW3FZ7 > I'm familiar with the term "mansplaining," but we need another word when it's women telling another woman that she doesn't experience what she thinks she experiences (and recommending books to tell her what she ought to feel.) Perhaps "matronising"? Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 2 12:14:57 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:14:57 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: <6C8B3724-160D-4201-BB2E-485EA7F0D5CB@panix.com> References: <6C8B3724-160D-4201-BB2E-485EA7F0D5CB@panix.com> Message-ID: <-m7pXr_egkumabXVGfuTD6y4brulUkS_kwMxDcTz31jH1BmCn6zplpA2O6Z7kssFjBZsfx-SlMBsDp6zoSj6yEWuUKaHJyampJzc2G3-EE4=@protonmail.com> On Friday, October 1st, 2021 at 14:32, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > On Sep 30, 2021, at 11:48 PM, Joel Polowin jpolowin at hotmail.com wrote: > > And as one of the one of the most noted documentarians of human > > > > sexuality in our field noted, "A girl's name ending in 'a' -- that > > > > always suggests a 'C' cup." > > > > Joel > > Stranger in a Strang Land as a documentary??? > RAH as an expert on female sexuality? SPUNG! Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 2 12:19:47 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:19:47 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Names with *a. Message-ID: On Friday, October 1st, 2021 at 05:48, Joel Polowin wrote: > But terminal vowels in personal names universally code for "female". > Akira Asa Cuba Dakota Dana Elisha Ezra Hamza Hosea Ilya Indiana Ira Koa Koda Joshua Luca/Lucca/Luka Misha Musa Mustafa Nicola Nikita Nova Pasha Santana Sasha/Sascha Seneca Sequoia Vanya Yehuda Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 2 12:35:07 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:35:07 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Jobs and sport In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thursday, September 30th, 2021 at 22:49, Matthew George wrote: > If men weren't excluded from female sporting events, the events wouldn't > > take place, because they'd be dominated by men. As a group, men are > > notably better at athletics. Holds true with the elites, too. > > It's almost as though there were different selection principles for the two > > sexes for thousands of generations, and for the species we evolved from in > > the first place... > Sports are selected so the teams are evenly matched, because that will give the most fun. We don't choose people for jobs on the basis of who will compete most evenly with the people already doing that job. Though it does look as if a lot of the resistance to women in the professions, at least recently, is driven by the fear that they would compete way too effectively with the people already in place and making hiring decisions. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 2 13:02:38 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 12:02:38 +0000 Subject: [LMB] ot: Stephen Fry on Georgette Heyer In-Reply-To: <5dd4428c-a616-3578-6c8d-6f5d7601db4b@mindspring.com> References: <5dd4428c-a616-3578-6c8d-6f5d7601db4b@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Friday, October 1st, 2021 at 23:49, wrote: > Stephen Fry waxes eloquent on the enduring appeal of Georgette Heyer. > > ? > > https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/oct/01/stephen-fry-on-the-enduring-appeal-of-georgette-heyer > Having had her recommended so often (by this list, inter alia) I tried to read "Regency Buck" and couldn't pick it up again by the time I was halfway through. Is that one untypical of her work, or is there just something in her plotting that leaves me cold? Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 2 13:11:39 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 12:11:39 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Matija In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Friday, October 1st, 2021 at 18:55, Sylvia McIvers wrote: > On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 12:50 PM tidsel via Lois-Bujold < > > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > > > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > > > On Friday, October 1st, 2021 at 6:19 AM, alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > > > > wrote: . > > > > > > So is Matija one of those Evelyn/Evelyn names? > > > > > > > Ashley? Kim? > > Let me add Sandy & Robin/Robyn. > > And our own listee Kevin, who is not a boy. > My previous wife used to choose unisex baby names, partly on feminist priciples, but mainly so that she could refer to the infant by name as soon as s/he was planned rather than having to wait and see. So we had a Lee, and would have had a Kim had she lived. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From matt.msg at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 15:22:22 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 10:22:22 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not having the pepper be responsible for the attack (or at least its timing) feels like an opportunity lost. But then, I'm not an author, and I didn't have to create the whole thing, which gives me rather an advantage. Does the information it's responsible for turn out to be all that important? I'd better reread. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 15:23:45 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 10:23:45 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One wonders why we feel the need to be gender-specific, since there's no lack of patronizing people of both sexes. On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 7:11 AM Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > I'm familiar with the term "mansplaining," but we need another word when > it's women telling another woman that she doesn't experience what she > thinks she experiences (and recommending books to tell her what she ought > to feel.) Perhaps "matronising"? > From matt.msg at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 15:25:02 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 10:25:02 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 'Pop science'? Did you happen to notice where that paper was published, Ruchira Mathur? On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 6:40 PM Ruchira Mathur wrote: > I'm honored by your full use of my name. ? > You shouldn't be. From alzurite at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 15:23:18 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 10:23:18 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Birthday Excitement Message-ID: The new Birthday Tixie jumps up, all dishevelled and embarrassed, a calendar in one hand and a trumpet in the other. Belated already! She looks nervously into all her pockets - and she has many - and finally finds the letter that she sincerely meant to deliver yesterday to Kris Wiegand, who gets an extra cake (with candles and little pink candy rosettes) because of her late delivery with profuse (blushing) apologies. She finds the letter. She clears her throat, and hands it to him, knowing she will be in trouble with Iselle for her tardiness. It says: My Very Dear Kris Wiegand - Again it is your birthday - how time flies, in your world and ours. 45! A splendid age, and we congratulate you on reaching it. Again we are balanced between the darkness of winter and the bright heat of summer - making this the perfect time for a birthday and a visit. We have such pleasant memories of our progress through Chalion with your pleasant company. So pleasant, in fact, that we hope you will come and do it with us again this year - all your expenses will be paid, of course. The itinerary will be a little different, and this year it will include a visit to Cazaril and Betriz and their remarkable child. As usual, the noblest families will do their utmost to keep us all entertained, well fed, and amazed by their splendours. I have heard rumours that the most remarkable new singer will be at a certain castle - oh, please come and celebrate with us again! In anticipation, Your friend, Iselle Chalion R namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From matt.msg at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 15:29:45 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 10:29:45 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Jobs and sport In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 7:35 AM Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > Sports are selected so the teams are evenly matched, because that will > give the most fun. I'm pretty sure the franchise owners try their hardest to recruit teams that will win. Professional sports teams aren't handicapping themselves to arrange more equal matches. You'd think an enterprising businessperson would go around recruiting all of the highly qualified women who can't get work, or appropriate remuneration, because of fears they'd outcompete men. All that wasted talent would be an opportunity to overturn established businesses and make a bundle. Matt G. From alzurite at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 15:30:15 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 10:30:15 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein Message-ID: Peter Hews said: > RAH as an expert on female sexuality? SPUNG! I am quite an admirer of Heinlein's books and his writing (insofar as I have read them), but I always wondered if he had ever met a real live woman. I am told he did. His books don't reflect it. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From fred.fredex at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 15:34:47 2021 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 10:34:47 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: RAH's books are clearly not autobiographical (he laments this in his letters, re: people who contact him and think he follows the philosophy(ies) from, e.g., Stranger In A Strange Land). So, I don't think we can read too much into other areas of his books regarding his personal life experience. He was just writing stories, not revealing his own experiences. Fred On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 10:30 AM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Peter Hews said: > > > RAH as an expert on female sexuality? SPUNG! > > I am quite an admirer of Heinlein's books and his writing (insofar as I > have read them), but I always wondered if he had ever met a real live > woman. I am told he did. His books don't reflect it. > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Sat Oct 2 15:49:43 2021 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 14:49:43 +0000 Subject: [LMB] ot: recommending Georgette Heyer Message-ID: <63e3cb8d-f643-22e8-fa7d-ff00aa6256d8@mindspring.com> Peter Hews had a hard time engaging with the Heyer novel, _Regency Buck_.? Just this morning, over on the Heyer mailing list, someone wondered why _Regency Buck_ was always trotted out as representative Heyer, when the poster felt it was far less humorous and characteristic than other novels. ? What can we recommend that Peter might find more engaging? ? I'll say _Frederica_ and _Unknown Ajax_. ? Anyone else care to play? ? Jerrie ? ? From becca7108 at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 15:52:36 2021 From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 10:52:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] ot: recommending Georgette Heyer In-Reply-To: <63e3cb8d-f643-22e8-fa7d-ff00aa6256d8@mindspring.com> References: <63e3cb8d-f643-22e8-fa7d-ff00aa6256d8@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Oh, definitely Ajax! On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 10:49 AM wrote: > Peter Hews had a hard time engaging with the Heyer novel, _Regency Buck_. > Just this morning, over on the Heyer mailing list, someone wondered why > _Regency Buck_ was always trotted out as representative Heyer, when the > poster felt it was far less humorous and characteristic than other novels. > > What can we recommend that Peter might find more engaging? > > I'll say _Frederica_ and _Unknown Ajax_. > > Anyone else care to play? > > Jerrie > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to becca7108 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From matt.msg at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 15:56:39 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 10:56:39 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Supposedly the women in his later works were modeled after his wife, who may well have pretended to flatter his ego constantly and enjoyed being spanked. Heinlein WAS a swinger and a nudist, and his advocacy of those lifestyle options in his works clearly isn't an accident. He might not have wanted smelly hippies deciding he'd become their water brother and camping on his lawn, but he clearly thought free love among a self-selected in-group was a fine thing. You've got to give him credit: *The **Puppetmasters* is both an utterly transparent propaganda piece for nudism, AND an internally-cohesive and rather terrifying alien invasion story. Combining those two features is quite an accomplishment. Matt G. From proto at panix.com Sat Oct 2 15:55:49 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 10:55:49 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: <-m7pXr_egkumabXVGfuTD6y4brulUkS_kwMxDcTz31jH1BmCn6zplpA2O6Z7kssFjBZsfx-SlMBsDp6zoSj6yEWuUKaHJyampJzc2G3-EE4=@protonmail.com> References: <6C8B3724-160D-4201-BB2E-485EA7F0D5CB@panix.com> <-m7pXr_egkumabXVGfuTD6y4brulUkS_kwMxDcTz31jH1BmCn6zplpA2O6Z7kssFjBZsfx-SlMBsDp6zoSj6yEWuUKaHJyampJzc2G3-EE4=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <370AD6B8-A40D-4C14-A57E-F1B96E9E6446@panix.com> > On Oct 2, 2021, at 7:14 AM, Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > RAH as an expert on female sexuality? SPUNG! > > Peter Hews LOL! Indeed. How does (particularly late) Heinlein help men how to approach women? ?You remind me of mother?, belike? __ What is the difference between unethical and ethical advertising? Unethical advertising uses falsehoods to deceive the public; ethical advertising uses truth to deceive the public. Vilhjalmur Stefansson (1879 ? 1962) From matt.msg at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 16:04:17 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 11:04:17 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To add some on-topic content to the thread, so we don't have to add OT: to it: I think many authors are frustrated when they put *some* content they personally believe in into a novel or story, and then have people believing that characters in those works are meant to *be* the author themselves. Our Host is a fine example. I doubt anyone who's read her works has any doubt about her opinion regarding sexual education, or the attractiveness of extremely pale men for that matter. But there's no character that's a stand-in for her, or whose opinions and positions are mere expressions of the author and identical to her own. Just because there are bits of Bujold in Cordelia, Kareen, and Ekaterin doesn't make any of them Lois self-inserts. There are lots of characters that Heinlein clearly based on himself, and even used as bullhorns for his opinions, but it doesn't follow that everything about those characters is a reflection of him. (In fairness, if he wanted people to avoid that mistake, he shouldn't have spent so much time preaching - he was good at doing it entertainingly, but confusion about the division between author and character is one consequence that's hard to prevent.) Matt G. > From proto at panix.com Sat Oct 2 16:03:37 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 11:03:37 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0EA84FE6-BB73-4293-B0BC-81F3FC2526E3@panix.com> > On Oct 2, 2021, at 10:30 AM, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > > I am quite an admirer of Heinlein's books and his writing (insofar as I > have read them), but I always wondered if he had ever met a real live > woman. I am told he did. His books don't reflect it. > > namaste, > Elizabeth He wrote women the way he wanted them to be, or perhaps as part of his fanbase wanted them to be or both, of course. ? ?That which doesn?t make us stronger kills us.? From alzurite at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 16:03:39 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 11:03:39 -0400 Subject: [LMB] ot: recommending Georgette Heyer Message-ID: Jerrie said: > Peter Hews had a hard time engaging with the Heyer novel, _Regency Buck_. Just this > morning, over on the Heyer mailing list, someone wondered why _Regency Buck_ was always > trotted out as representative Heyer, when the poster felt it was far less humorous and > characteristic than other novels. I haven't read it in decades - but remember it as being rather bland. (This is why I haven't read it again.) > What can we recommend that Peter might find more engaging? I'll say _Frederica_ and > _Unknown Ajax_. Good choices. I'll say "Sylvester" and "Black Sheep". "False Colours" is one I really loved, but again, I haven't read it in decades, and I don't hear people mentioning it much, and I always wonder why not. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From matt.msg at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 16:21:19 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 11:21:19 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: <370AD6B8-A40D-4C14-A57E-F1B96E9E6446@panix.com> References: <6C8B3724-160D-4201-BB2E-485EA7F0D5CB@panix.com> <-m7pXr_egkumabXVGfuTD6y4brulUkS_kwMxDcTz31jH1BmCn6zplpA2O6Z7kssFjBZsfx-SlMBsDp6zoSj6yEWuUKaHJyampJzc2G3-EE4=@protonmail.com> <370AD6B8-A40D-4C14-A57E-F1B96E9E6446@panix.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 10:55 AM WalterStuartBushell wrote: > Indeed. How does (particularly late) Heinlein help men how to approach > women? ?You remind me of mother?, belike? > Alas, Heinlein didn't know about the Westermarck Effect. The protagonist might not have retained the reverse imprinting of his childhood, several centuries before, but his mother should have had the same feelings about sex with him as she did to the younger version of her son: complete disinterest. Matt G. From ladylyzbeth at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 16:29:49 2021 From: ladylyzbeth at gmail.com (Elizabeth) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 11:29:49 -0400 Subject: [LMB] ot: recommending Georgette Heyer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A personal fav of mine is The Corinthian. I also love Ajax and Black Sheep! ~~ *Elizabeth W All extremes are dangerous. V Woolf* On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 11:04 AM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Jerrie said: > > > Peter Hews had a hard time engaging with the Heyer novel, _Regency > Buck_. Just this > > morning, over on the Heyer mailing list, someone wondered why _Regency > Buck_ was always > > trotted out as representative Heyer, when the poster felt it was far less > humorous and > > characteristic than other novels. > > I haven't read it in decades - but remember it as being rather bland. (This > is why I haven't read it again.) > > > What can we recommend that Peter might find more engaging? I'll say > _Frederica_ and > > _Unknown Ajax_. > > Good choices. I'll say "Sylvester" and "Black Sheep". > > "False Colours" is one I really loved, but again, I haven't read it in > decades, and I don't hear people mentioning it much, and I always wonder > why not. > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ladylyzbeth at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From c_muir68 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 2 17:26:01 2021 From: c_muir68 at hotmail.com (catherine muir) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 16:26:01 +0000 Subject: [LMB] ot: recommending Georgette Heyer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A friend of mine once tried to equate Geogette Heyer with Barbara Cartland. When I came down from the ceiling and stopped sputtering, I recommended 3 books ? the ?waterloo? ones: that is, The Spanish Bride (Peninsular Campaign to Waterloo): An Infamous Army (the Hundred Days): and A Civil Contract (the view from civilian England). These are not primarily the comedies of manners we usually recommend; but perhaps Peter might find them more to his taste as historicals? (incidentally, my friend commented later that she found the books rather dangerous because ?she forgot everything else? while reading them. Point?) Oh, and a warning: Peter, NEVER read anything by Barbara Cartland. Sent from Mail for Windows Jerrie said: > Peter Hews had a hard time engaging with the Heyer novel, _Regency Buck_. Just this namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to c_muir68 at hotmail.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From alzurite at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 17:48:50 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 12:48:50 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein Message-ID: Re Heinlein: > To add some on-topic content to the thread, so we don't have to add OT: to > it: Good idea! > I think many authors are frustrated when they put *some* content they > personally believe in into a novel or story, and then have people believing > that characters in those works are meant to *be* the author themselves. I tend to think that books are improved by the inclusion of a writers' beliefs - as long as those beliefs are in some way congruent to my own. No homophobia, racism, or misogyny for me, thanks. But otherwise - bring it on! Actually, I can and sometimes do enjoy reading books where the author's philosophy is incongruent with my own. Ayn Rand is a case in point. Horrified fascination. > Our Host is a fine example. I doubt anyone who's read her works has any > doubt about her opinion regarding sexual education, or the attractiveness > of extremely pale men for that matter. Pale men? Who are you thinking of? You lost me there. Penric is fair-haired; is that what you mean? > There are lots of characters that Heinlein clearly based on > himself, and even used as bullhorns for his opinions, but it doesn't follow > that everything about those characters is a reflection of him. I would argue perhaps that the problem is not so much the insertion of his own personality, consciously or unconsciously, but that his characters all seem like the same personality, regardless of their actions. Whether that was Heinlein's own personality is a moot point. I never met him. I have no problem with that. I like Heinlein's writing, and his ideas are interesting and I agree with a good part of them. Haven't read them all; I've heard odd things about some of them. I haven't read any of the books my friends seem to like best, i.e., Starship Troopers. Hated the movie. And the book sounds like the kind of military boys' stuff I have always avoided. But then of course, I come across Miles Vorkosigan and his military boy's stuff is the substance of some of my favourite books ever, so it goes to show that I shouldn't judge what I haven't read. But one has to have some sort of emotional incentive to pick.up any given book. Or not. I wish more authors followed Heinlein in his philosophical bent. Most fiction is bland in that regard. My comment about his women being un-womanlike was simply because he stands out in that regard; most writers who haven't much idea how to write a female character avoid a deep female viewpoint, or make her fairly generic and cliched. Not Heinlein. He just jumped right in, fearlessly and shamelessly, and if it reads offly to my female eyes, it at least fits his style and themes. Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From margdean56 at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 18:01:50 2021 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 11:01:50 -0600 Subject: [LMB] ot: Stephen Fry on Georgette Heyer In-Reply-To: References: <5dd4428c-a616-3578-6c8d-6f5d7601db4b@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 6:02 AM Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > On Friday, October 1st, 2021 at 23:49, > wrote: > > > Stephen Fry waxes eloquent on the enduring appeal of Georgette Heyer. > > > > > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/oct/01/stephen-fry-on-the-enduring-appeal-of-georgette-heyer > > > > Having had her recommended so often (by this list, inter alia) I tried to > read "Regency Buck" and couldn't pick it up again by the time I was halfway > through. Is that one untypical of her work, or is there just something in > her plotting that leaves me cold? > Regency Buck was Heyer's first novel set in the Regency, and she hadn't really hit her stride yet. That novel is a bit prone to infodumps (her research was showing), and she's also trying to run a mystery plot at the same time as the romance, so the characterization (especially of the male lead) suffers a bit. As people are always saying about Terry Pratchett, don't start with the first in the series. I'd go with one of the later ones like The Grand Sophy or Frederica or The Unknown Ajax or Black Sheep or Friday's Child ... to name a few! --Margaret Dean, confirmed Heyer fan From lmb at matija.com Sat Oct 2 18:02:49 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 18:02:49 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Jobs and sport In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 02/10/2021 15:29, Matthew George wrote: > You'd think an enterprising businessperson would go around recruiting all > of the highly qualified women who can't get work, or appropriate > remuneration, because of fears they'd outcompete men. All that wasted > talent would be an opportunity to overturn established businesses and make > a bundle. There are - I see some of that in the recruiting of top internet companies (the reason I'm not commenting about it elsewhere is that I haven't been involved in recruiting elsewhere). In FAANGs (Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, Google -type companies) all engineers are constantly interviewing new candidates, so I saw the policies first hand, and in operation. We are told, and trained, to evaluate the candidates based on their demonstrated abilities (not on perceptions), and also to determine acceptance criteria ahead of time, for all candidates, NOT ad-hoc, when talking to a candidate. And you know what? When you follow that process (and there are some people who don't want to, which is why it's never up to just one person), a lot more women and people whose skins is less than pearly white get accepted. I work with a bunch of them, and they're all great engineers. From kcollett at hamilton.edu Sat Oct 2 18:30:07 2021 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Kathy C.) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 13:30:07 -0400 Subject: [LMB] ot: recommending Georgette Heyer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52D4ABE1-6F21-4955-A2F7-D5317AABF8B4@hamilton.edu> On Oct 2, 2021, at 11:29 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > > A personal fav of mine is The Corinthian. I also love Ajax and Black Sheep! So many of them are so much fun. Cotillion is probably my most consistent favorite, and one of the funniest. I also like the ones that make me cry (at some point, definitely not at the end!), like Venetia and Friday?s Child. I like Civil Contract for the way Heyer is writing against her own tropes. The Unknown Ajax is also a favorite. Do you know the Heyer blog entries on Tor.com? For instance, https://www.tor.com/2013/09/24/land-management-and-romance-the-unknown-ajax/. Katherine From khoreutees at yahoo.com Sat Oct 2 18:49:23 2021 From: khoreutees at yahoo.com (Edith) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 19:49:23 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 12:19 PM Matthew George wrote: > >> So: Chapter 3. >> >> >> >> It's curious that the salt-and-pepper shaker's powers never come into the >> story. In the light of what we eventually learn about the pepper side's >> power, it's a little surprising that it doesn't seem to be involved in the >> disastrous conflict and its fallout. Chekhov's Gun isn't a hard and fast >> principle, but never using an introduced element is an odd choice, even >> though it makes the story somewhat more realistic. >> > On 02/10/2021 00:01, Margaret Dean wrote: > On the contrary, the test of the pepper side ends up handing the "good > guys" an important piece of information; since that's quite a few chapters > away, I won't specify right now. > > Indeed. I also see the salt-and-pepper shaker as serving to reveal Prospero Beneforte's character on several occasions. Initially, his skill as both magician and craftsman, his willingness to use Fiametta to demonstrate, his insistence on delivering it himself (which puts them both in danger), the fact that when fleeing the fighting he saves it (which helps set up and drive home the significance much, much later when Fiametta notes that the fact Master Beneforte's ghost is not hanging around watching the casting of the Perseus shows how close he is to being bound). It is also interesting that the three works of magic-and-craft that we see in this book all work, but none of them as intended. Fiametta's ring works, but does not achieve what she hoped; showing that Uri was her true love. The salt-and-pepper shaker demonstrably works, but does not achieve its goal of keeping the Duke safe and does not fulfil the role we expect in the narrative. The Perseus too has an unexpected role (or did others anticipate what its role in the story would be?), one not planned by Beneforte, and ends up not quite as intended. So, maybe that use or non-use of the salt-and-pepper shaker could be seen as fitting a theme here. Are there other aspects that would fit that idea of the ways things work beyond the intentions of their creators? From lmb at matija.com Sat Oct 2 19:28:11 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 19:28:11 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 02/10/2021 17:48, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > I haven't read any of the books > my friends seem to like best, i.e., Starship Troopers. Hated the movie. I read Starship Troopers in high school, and it was a big help when I was in the army. His description of the training and explanations of what the instructors were trying to achieve, and why, got me through basic training,? and through the rest of my term in the military. Without advice in the book, I might have had a much harder time. Funny thing is, Heinlein went to Annapolis - he never went through a grunt's basic training, but he described it very well. I agree with you about the movie - much as I wanted to like it, I still hated it. FWIW, I heard that Verhoeven (the director) was inspired by the line "is this another bug-hunt?" in Aliens, and wanted to make a "bug hunt" movie. Then somebody warned him that might infringe on the options for making Starship Troopers that someone had purchased from Heinlein but never done anything about. So Verhoeven purchased that option and made Starship Troopers - but he never read the book. I don't even know if the writers he hired read more than the Cliff notes of the book. BTW, Heinlein's decision to explicitly make the pilots a mainly female profession was controversial at the time when the book came out in 1959. If you watch the interview of Cronkite with Clarke and Heinlein during the Apollo 11 mission, at the 24th minute, Heinlein, without prompting, advocates for women astronauts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMAmk5Rp1tk Watching that interview is really fascinating. That optimism ("we are sure to have hospitals on the moon before the end of this century"). From matt.msg at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 20:36:47 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 15:36:47 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 12:49 PM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Pale men? Who are you thinking of? You lost me there. Penric is > fair-haired; is that what you mean? > Fair-haired - platinum blond, even - and pale-skinned. There's also the fourteen-year-old boy with the pointed ears. Striking, certainly. > I would argue perhaps that the problem is not so much the insertion of his > own personality, consciously or unconsciously, but that his characters all > seem like the same personality, regardless of their actions. Yes. Whether the characters are him isn't as important as whether they are themselves, and they aren't. > I have no problem with that. I like Heinlein's writing, and his ideas are > interesting and I agree with a good part of them. Haven't read them all; > I've heard odd things about some of them. Frankly, I would have to recommend skipping *Time Enough for Love*. Not only for the reasons everyone else says, but there are more. > Hated the movie. The movie is a parody of what thoughtless people think the novel is, and really has nothing to do with the novel. The novel itself raises concerns, at least partly because Heinlein insisted that 'veteran' doesn't merely refer to military service. Which is true, but not in the vernacular; a whole lot of people got the wrong idea, and in communication being technically correct doesn't help if the idea isn't communicated properly. But one has to have some sort of emotional incentive to pick.up any given > book. Or not. > I tended to do it out of boredom and availability. I even once had a sort of rule that I'd always finish a book, but eventually I encountered ones which I found so tedious that it wasn't worth keeping the principle. > I wish more authors followed Heinlein in his philosophical bent. Most > fiction is bland in that regard. > He definitely has his opinions and isn't afraid to share them. A lot of creators are too worried about alienating customers to express any meaningful opinions, especially unpopular ones. Although perhaps that's wise in today's world. Matt G. From k.m.allis at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 20:44:46 2021 From: k.m.allis at gmail.com (Katrina Long) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 20:44:46 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixie In-Reply-To: References: <276560927.946889.1633113654496@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks you I think she'd better have the fast mice or she'll get bored! But the rest, absolutely. Katrina On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 at 02:59, Eric Oppen wrote: > Condolences over Glimmer. May she find her way to an afterlife of slow > mice, lots of friendly laps to sit in, and people who know how to treat a > cat. > > On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 1:41 PM Karen A. Wyle wrote: > > > Katrina, I'm so sorry about Glimmer. I hope you and Artemis can take > > comfort in each other's company. > > Karen A. Wyle > > On Friday, October 1, 2021, 02:26:22 PM EDT, Katrina Long < > > k.m.allis at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > - > > (Small cat Glimmer was hit by a car Monday week ago: she was found by > > someone who tried to get her help, but she died on the way to the vet. > She > > wasn't quite three. I still feel like she will come back in, > unapologetic, > > meowing for fuss, food, more fuss in that order as she's done in the > past. > > Her sister Artemis seems fine . Plus we just missed out on NZ MIQ spots > > for December on Tuesday. But there'll be more chances for the MIQ slots, > > and next year might be easier.) > > > > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to k.m.allis at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Prayer, he suspected as he hoisted himself up and turned for the door, was putting one foot in front of the other. Moving all the same. Lois McMaster Bujold, _Curse of Chalion_ From gretchen.m.wright at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 00:05:00 2021 From: gretchen.m.wright at gmail.com (Gretchen Wright) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 19:05:00 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Pale men, ON topic was Re: Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 3:34 PM Matthew George wrote: > On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 12:49 PM Elizabeth Holden > wrote: > > > Pale men? Who are you thinking of? You lost me there. Penric is > > fair-haired; is that what you mean? > > > > Fair-haired - platinum blond, even - and pale-skinned. There's also the > fourteen-year-old boy with the pointed ears. Striking, certainly. > > Arhys is also pale and attractive. I can't place who you mean by the fourteen-year-old boy, though. Which universe is that from? (And in what other discussion group could one get to ask that question?) Gretchen From becca7108 at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 00:09:44 2021 From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 19:09:44 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Pale men, ON topic was Re: Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 7:05 PM Gretchen Wright wrote: > > Arhys is also pale and attractive. > > I can't place who you mean by the fourteen-year-old boy, though. Which > universe is that from? (And in what other discussion group could one get to > ask that question?) > > Gretchen > I assumed the pale 14 year old boy was Edward, the sparkly vampire. I'm mercifully blocking the title of the book. From smith.martin.music at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 00:23:05 2021 From: smith.martin.music at gmail.com (Martin Smith ) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 00:23:05 +0100 Subject: [LMB] ot: recommending Georgette Heyer In-Reply-To: <52D4ABE1-6F21-4955-A2F7-D5317AABF8B4@hamilton.edu> References: <52D4ABE1-6F21-4955-A2F7-D5317AABF8B4@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: <000901d7b7e4$749f9180$5ddeb480$@gmail.com> Since no-one seems to have mentioned it yet, may I put in a word for Devil's Cub? I quite enjoyed The Quiet Gentleman and the Nonesuch, as well. Black Moth and These Old Shades were a bit meh. The Reluctant Widow was quite fun. Martin From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sun Oct 3 01:30:10 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 20:30:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Re Heinlein not understanding women: he was married to two strong women, Leslyn and Virginia, and from all accounts his marriage to Virginia was long-lasting and happy. Of course, one doesn't know how much marriage partners actually understand each other but Heinlein certainly wasn't an incel, either, and as has been mentioned he strongly supported women in professions and as equal contributors to society. As for his characters I didn't think much of Podkayne (tho I rather liked Girdie FitzSnuggly); I loathed everyone in Farnham's Freehold; The Number of the Beast's characters were all cardboard if not worse; I definitely did not warm to Friday or even consider her believable. Last year, I got the audiobook of _I Will Fear No Evil_ from the library and returned it after getting to the point that the main character wakes up after the transplant. I realized I loathed *everyone* in it -- Johann Sebastian Smith most for being a selfish asshole, Jake as his enabler, but Eunice only slightly less for constantly manipulating others. When this book came out in 1970, it was the first Heinlein book I was actually waiting for, having read all his previous books after they'd been out for a while. I had read and reread everything I could find of his, I loved it all (some like FF and Sixth Column and Beyond This Horizon less, admittedly). I was frankly a bit shocked and not quite happy with this one (my parents were a bit shocked at the book itself). Then when it was followed by _The Number of the Beast_ I never completely trusted a Heinlein book again, although I kept hoping. On the other hand, I loved Star in Glory Road; all the female characters in juveniles like Time for the Stars and Red Planet and the Rolling Stones; Wyoh and Hazel in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress; the characters in his short stories like We Also Walk Dogs -- and I would contend that these are fully-fleshed and individual characters. I certainly wouldn't describe Heinlein's books as perfect when it comes to female characters -- one of his best books is _Double Star_ and the female character in that story just begs to be given a bigger role and more agency and the story would have been better for it -- but at the same time I think he did better than most male authors of that era (SF and non-SF). Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From wawenri at msn.com Sun Oct 3 01:32:55 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 00:32:55 +0000 Subject: [LMB] The heroine's journey In-Reply-To: References: <1FF19547-771E-4D77-B26F-490642C02EFC@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: Before you can acknowledge truth, you have to believe that there is such a thing as objective truth. As long as people insist on his truth or her truth we will invariably talk past each other and can never learn anything. Absolutely people?s past experience will influence their perceptions. I believe that there is such a thing as truth that goes deeper than perception. An example I use is, if your experience somehow has been that bowling balls are usually very light, I still will not like you to drop one on my foot. I don?t even want to be around if you drop one on your own foot. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Matthew George Sent: Friday, October 1, 2021 12:12:06 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] The heroine's journey To make a just society, we would first have to understand the factors that produce injustice with such consistency. Without knowing and acknowledging the truth, directed change is impossible. Unfortunately, "acknowledging truth" isn't high on the list of human priorities; it's well below "cling to comforting delusions" and "exert political power through dogma". On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 6:24 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > I'm optimistic that we will finally reach equality. > We just have to work together on what constitute a equal society. > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C3a7c36a33d7942d0256008d98506b4b2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637687086113338551%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=zjMoHWUb9%2B1b%2BMr6wWFsyxcU0VX3%2Ft7dlFasX9geBbA%3D&reserved=0 From domelouann at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 01:55:32 2021 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 19:55:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 2, 2021, 7:30 PM wrote: > I certainly wouldn't describe Heinlein's books as perfect when it comes to > female characters -- one of his best books is _Double Star_ and the female > character in that story just begs to be given a bigger role and more > agency and the story would have been better for it -- but at the same time > I think he did better than most male authors of that era > Maybe we can say what Miles said of the Count his grandfather. He blazed a trail that his planet followed, until later generations passed him and finally left him behind. > From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sun Oct 3 02:14:11 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 21:14:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Oct 2021, Louann Miller wrote: > Maybe we can say what Miles said of the Count his grandfather. He blazed a > trail that his planet followed, until later generations passed him and > finally left him behind. I like that. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From fishman at panix.com Sun Oct 3 02:25:01 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 01:25:01 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A version of _The Number of the Beast_ was published posthumously as _The Pursuit of the Pankera. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 10/2/2021 9:14:11 PM Subject: Re: [LMB] Heinlein >On Sat, 2 Oct 2021, Louann Miller wrote: >>Maybe we can say what Miles said of the Count his grandfather. He blazed a >>trail that his planet followed, until later generations passed him and >>finally left him behind. > >I like that. > >Alayne > >-- Alayne McGregor >alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > >What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We >need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the >institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate >and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich >-- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From alzurite at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 03:34:03 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 22:34:03 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein Message-ID: Alayne said: > Re Heinlein not understanding women: he was married to two strong women, > Leslyn and Virginia, and from all accounts his marriage to Virginia was > long-lasting and happy. Of course, one doesn't know how much marriage > partners actually understand each other but Heinlein certainly wasn't an > incel, either, and as has been mentioned he strongly supported women in > professions and as equal contributors to society. Frankly, I liked his attitude towards women (in the books I read) and had no problem with that. I just thought he couldn't write a woman's viewpoint well. Not a problem in judgement - more like a problem in literary skill. > Last year, I got the audiobook of _I Will Fear No Evil_ from the library > and returned it after getting to the point that the main character wakes > up after the transplant. I realized I loathed *everyone* in it -- I can't recall if I read that one; I think not. Shall I guess that his writing was, generally speaking, uneven? > On the other hand, I loved Star in Glory Road; all the female characters > in juveniles like Time for the Stars and Red Planet and the Rolling > Stones; Those are the ones I've never read. > Wyoh and Hazel in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress; That's my favourite of his books. > -- but at the same time > I think he did better than most male authors of that era (SF and non-SF). Which is probably why I have read very little SF of that era - or at least, the books I read were either by the female authors or the up-and-coming writers of a new generation. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From alzurite at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 03:45:13 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 22:45:13 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein Message-ID: Having said what I said about not reading SF authors of Heinlein's generation, I realized I had no sense of when he was born or what his generation was. So I looked him up. He was born in 1907, which makes him roughly the same generation as my parents - a little older, though not by much. So when he was growing up, women couldn't vote yet. He grew up through World War I, the 1920s... he was in his thirties when World War II came along. He was the same age as Robert E. Howard and James A. Michener. He was so forward-thinking and future-oriented, I thought he was decades younger than that. My respect for him has grown. (And understand that I already respected him.) Remarkable. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From focsle1928 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 3 04:00:35 2021 From: focsle1928 at yahoo.com (Jane Hotchkiss) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 03:00:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] [LMB} ot: recommending Georgette Heyer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1203921534.805881.1633230035804@mail.yahoo.com> Jerrie A wrote: Peter Hews had a hard time engaging with the Heyer novel, _Regency Buck_.? Just this morning, over on the Heyer mailing list, someone wondered why _Regency Buck_ was always trotted out as representative Heyer, when the poster felt it was far less humorous and characteristic than other novels. ? What can we recommend that Peter might find more engaging? ? I'll say _Frederica_ and _Unknown Ajax_. ? Anyone else care to play? ? Jerrie ? ? JH: my most-favorite is _Sylvester, or, The Wicked Uncle_. But _Frederica _ & _The Unknown Ajax_? are tied for second. _The Grand Sophy_ is third. Jane Hotchkiss From jpolowin at hotmail.com Sun Oct 3 04:08:05 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 03:08:05 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Alayne said: >> Last year, I got the audiobook of _I Will Fear No Evil_ from the library >> and returned it after getting to the point that the main character wakes >> up after the transplant. I realized I loathed *everyone* in it -- > I can't recall if I read that one; I think not. Shall I guess that his > writing was, generally speaking, uneven? Approximately: A Heinleinian curmudgeon dies suddenly -- heart attack, or something like that. By chance, at the same time, his extremely hot secretary is in a serious accident and brain-dead. A brain transplant is performed. The curmudgeon spends the rest of a very long book in a female body, hearing what he believes is the voice of the secretary advising him about female sexuality. There is much pontification. It isn't one of his better works. Joel From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 04:13:58 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 22:13:58 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To be fair, he wasn't in good shape at the time. He had some sort of stroke around the time he was done with it and didn't get to go over the MS, at least as I recall. On Sat, Oct 2, 2021, 10:08 PM Joel Polowin wrote: > Elizabeth Holden wrote: > > Alayne said: > >> Last year, I got the audiobook of _I Will Fear No Evil_ from the library > >> and returned it after getting to the point that the main character wakes > >> up after the transplant. I realized I loathed *everyone* in it -- > > I can't recall if I read that one; I think not. Shall I guess that his > > writing was, generally speaking, uneven? > > Approximately: A Heinleinian curmudgeon dies suddenly -- heart attack, > or something like that. By chance, at the same time, his extremely hot > secretary is in a serious accident and brain-dead. A brain transplant > is performed. The curmudgeon spends the rest of a very long book in > a female body, hearing what he believes is the voice of the secretary > advising him about female sexuality. There is much pontification. > > It isn't one of his better works. > > Joel > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 09:49:04 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 03:49:04 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: <94852592-fb18-9aee-7602-8ef2b455e7cc@matija.com> Message-ID: Yep. On Fri, Oct 1, 2021, 11:41 AM tidsel via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > On Thursday, September 30th, 2021 at 9:10 PM, Louann Miller < > domelouann at gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 1:43 PM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > > > > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > On 30/09/2021 18:59, Harvey Fishman wrote: > > > > > > > A man who feels badly about himself will lose his sexual desire. That > > > > > > > > is mental. > > I do not understand why this remark is causing so much reaction. It goes > for all of us, doesn't it? > And it did for Ekaterin too. > T > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 10:13:02 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 04:13:02 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: automotive, was OT: Gender Roles , figures In-Reply-To: References: <20298e74-d6e5-f670-0eca-ba36b9c9e6e9.ref@aol.com> <20298e74-d6e5-f670-0eca-ba36b9c9e6e9@aol.com> Message-ID: There was a brief event, when I joined the Demoly( a junior club of the Masons)in a military base in Bad Constatt, we where riding in a brand new 1976 Cadillac limousine when we got stuck in narrow intersection in a small town in route between Stuttgart and Munich. The German drivers were extremely annoyed because we blocked traffic while people figured how to extricate the Cadillac. We got out and directed a multi-puoint turn around under the cacophony of car horns. Frankly I thought it was as funny as hell. At the time I thought importing American Land Yachts stupid. I dropped out of Demolay soon after. Not because of the Cadillac fiasco, but because I found their rituals silly. On Fri, Oct 1, 2021, 11:58 AM Eric Oppen wrote: > I've noticed that too. Part of the reason, IMO, is that Americans depend > more on cars to get around with. Much of the US is not really suited to > things like passenger trains. Another reason is that the centers of a lot > of European cities were laid out centuries before automobiles came along, > and to get through those narrow, often-twisty streets, you need a small, > nippy car. When my dad and I were driving through Norway in 1989, we had a > British Ford Fiesta. > > On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 1:37 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > > > In Europe cars were smaller then American cars, especially in the 1970s > > when I visited Germany. I remember getting a bit of culture shock each > > time I arrived back in the States and saw those huge American cars. My > > German Grandparents had a Opal. And my American Grandparents had a 975 > Ford > > Galaxy 500. A land yacht compared to the Opal. > > > > On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 9:52 AM Louann Miller > wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 9:11 AM Eric Oppen > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I've a theory that "women are bad drivers" thing got started partly > > > > because early automobiles DID need muscle to keep them under proper > > > > control. I've driven a few vintage cars myself, and they're tougher > > to > > > > drive than modern ones. > > > > > > > > > > That's why I mentioned the power steering/power brakes theory. I did a > > > little of my very first practice driving in a 1963 Chevrolet owned by > our > > > family, and I agree with your assessment. > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 10:42:07 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 04:42:07 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Names with *a. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, Akira kurosawa is a guy. He did "Seven Samurai", "Rashomon " etc. And that's just the first name on the list. Cuba Gooding Jr. A guy. Dana Frederick White! President of the Ultimate Fighting Championship. Asa Butterfield, English actor played Ender Wiggein in "Endor's Game " I could go on but these names are pretty much nongender overall. FYI, except for the spelling my may is nongender too. Raymond Skywalker. What do you think? On Sat, Oct 2, 2021, 6:19 AM Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > On Friday, October 1st, 2021 at 05:48, Joel Polowin > wrote: > > > But terminal vowels in personal names universally code for "female". > > > > Akira > Asa > Cuba > Dakota > Dana > Elisha > Ezra > Hamza > Hosea > Ilya > Indiana > Ira > Koa > Koda > Joshua > Luca/Lucca/Luka > Misha > Musa > Mustafa > Nicola > Nikita > Nova > Pasha > Santana > Sasha/Sascha > Seneca > Sequoia > Vanya > Yehuda > > Peter Hews > > Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, > Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From fred.fredex at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 13:21:13 2021 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 08:21:13 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Re Wyo and Hazel, did you catch on to the fact that Hazel is a young version of the Gramma Hazel in "The Rolling Stones" ? I Will Fear No Evil is one of the ones that I read but couldn't enjoy. I found that most of his "late" books were like that. In an introduction to an anthology (so long ago I can't recall which anthology), written by (I think) Lester delRey (or maybe not) commented that whenHeinlein was great when under tight editorial control (e.g., the "Boys" books, and some other early works), but when let free tended to "sprawl" badly. I hadn't previously thought of that as a description, but it seems to fit. On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 10:34 PM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Alayne said: > > > Re Heinlein not understanding women: he was married to two strong women, > > Leslyn and Virginia, and from all accounts his marriage to Virginia was > > long-lasting and happy. Of course, one doesn't know how much marriage > > partners actually understand each other but Heinlein certainly wasn't an > > incel, either, and as has been mentioned he strongly supported women in > > professions and as equal contributors to society. > > Frankly, I liked his attitude towards women (in the books I read) and had > no problem with that. I just thought he couldn't write a woman's viewpoint > well. Not a problem in judgement - more like a problem in literary skill. > > > Last year, I got the audiobook of _I Will Fear No Evil_ from the library > > and returned it after getting to the point that the main character wakes > > up after the transplant. I realized I loathed *everyone* in it -- > > I can't recall if I read that one; I think not. Shall I guess that his > writing was, generally speaking, uneven? > > > On the other hand, I loved Star in Glory Road; all the female characters > > in juveniles like Time for the Stars and Red Planet and the Rolling > > Stones; > > Those are the ones I've never read. > > > Wyoh and Hazel in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress; > > That's my favourite of his books. > > > -- but at the same time > > I think he did better than most male authors of that era (SF and non-SF). > > Which is probably why I have read very little SF of that era - or at least, > the books I read were either by the female authors or the up-and-coming > writers of a new generation. > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From wawenri at msn.com Sun Oct 3 14:07:19 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 13:07:19 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Balloons Message-ID: Yesterday, was the beginning of the Albuquerque International Hot Air Balloon Fiesta. The weather was perfect. We only had 576 balloons this year. Many pilots from outside the USA couldn?t come but many store their balloons in the US and let other pilots fly them. All four granddaughters, Emma, Hazel, Elanor, and Anna slept over at our house. We got up at 3:00 am and left the house at 4:05. It took longer in line to get a parking spot (and $20) than to drive to Balloon Fiesta Park. We are all part of the Clutch Crew that sets up, chases, and takes down the balloon, so we had passes to the field, saving $75. We only have one balloon this year since Graham Bell, our pilot from England, wasn?t able to come. Hazel, Emma, and Elanor flew on the first flight, Elanor for the first time. A good, if tiring time was had by all. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From baur at chello.at Sun Oct 3 14:18:24 2021 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 15:18:24 +0200 Subject: [LMB] OT: Balloons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2e4e51f0-578d-c2ca-58a3-f36067492157@chello.at> Am 03.10.2021 um 15:07 schrieb WILLIAM A WENRICH: > Yesterday, was the beginning of the Albuquerque International Hot Air Balloon Fiesta. The weather was perfect. We only had 576 balloons this year. Many pilots from outside the USA couldn?t come but many store their balloons in the US and let other pilots fly them. > All four granddaughters, Emma, Hazel, Elanor, and Anna slept over at our house. We got up at 3:00 am and left the house at 4:05. It took longer in line to get a parking spot (and $20) than to drive to Balloon Fiesta Park. We are all part of the Clutch Crew that sets up, chases, and takes down the balloon, so we had passes to the field, saving $75. > We only have one balloon this year since Graham Bell, our pilot from England, wasn?t able to come. Hazel, Emma, and Elanor flew on the first flight, Elanor for the first time. did they do the proper baptism with champagne and fire.. ? servus markus > A good, if tiring time was had by all. > > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 15:08:22 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 10:08:22 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Balloons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 9:07 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Yesterday, was the beginning of the Albuquerque International Hot Air > Balloon Fiesta. The weather was perfect..... Hazel, Emma, and Elanor flew > on the first flight, Elanor for the first time. > A good, if tiring time was had by all. > > Oh, fun! Thanks for sharing. Sylvia From kawyle at att.net Sun Oct 3 15:49:41 2021 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 14:49:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] OT: Balloons References: <527194806.1296737.1633272581984.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <527194806.1296737.1633272581984@mail.yahoo.com> Sounds like a wonderful day! What sort of balloons are they? -- e.g., are they characters of any kind? Karen A. Wyle On Sunday, October 3, 2021, 09:07:35 AM EDT, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: Yesterday, was the beginning of the Albuquerque International Hot Air Balloon Fiesta. [snip]We only have one balloon this year since Graham Bell, our pilot from England, wasn?t able to come. Hazel, Emma, and Elanor flew on the first flight, Elanor for the first time. A good, if tiring time was had by all. William A Wenrich ? *? ? A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From domelouann at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 16:27:22 2021 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 10:27:22 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Balloons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That does sound fantastic. Albuquerque is a great town. From vanlook19 at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 16:31:51 2021 From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 08:31:51 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Names with *a. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 2:42 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > Dana Frederick White! President of the Ultimate Fighting Championship. > Also Dana Elcar, actor. Popularly known for Black Sheep Squadron and MacGuyver. BJ From baur at chello.at Sun Oct 3 17:00:35 2021 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 18:00:35 +0200 Subject: [LMB] OT: Balloons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <822e2fa1-b4dd-31c0-359c-3fe1b6ea7a4c@chello.at> Am 03.10.2021 um 17:27 schrieb Louann Miller: > That does sound fantastic. Albuquerque is a great town. as long as you remember to take a left turn there 8) servus markus From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sun Oct 3 17:30:39 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 12:30:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Oct 2021, Fred wrote: > Re Wyo and Hazel, did you catch on to the fact that Hazel is a young > version of the Gramma Hazel in "The Rolling Stones" ? Yup, first time I read TMiaHM. > I Will Fear No Evil is one of the ones that I read but couldn't enjoy. I > found that most of his "late" books were like that. In an introduction to > an anthology (so long ago I can't recall which anthology), written by (I > think) Lester del Rey (or maybe not) commented that when Heinlein was great > when under tight editorial control (e.g., the "Boys" books, and some other > early works), but when let free tended to "sprawl" badly. I hadn't > previously thought of that as a description, but it seems to fit. Agreed, though I would argue that IWFNE was simply flawed from the beginning, uncorrectable by editing, and should have been dumped. Did you ever read the uncut version of Stranger in a Strange Land, which was released by Heinlein's estate in the 90s to mark the book's 30th anniversary? Supposedly it's 1/4 longer, but I didn't see much difference when I read it. See also https://www.heinleinsociety.org/2004/08/2210/ STRANGER VS STRANGER: Comparing Versions of Heinlein?s ?Stranger in a Strange Land? by G. E. Rule -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sun Oct 3 17:40:03 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 12:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: historical analogue for the meteor in The Calculating Stars by Mary Robinette Kowal Message-ID: Archeologists have found a case where they think an exploding meteor destroyed a city: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/sep-25-bronze-age-town-destroyed-by-meteor-global-warming-makes-animals-shapeshift-and-more-1.6187428/ancient-jordanian-town-destroyed-by-a-meteor-blast-may-have-inspired-biblical-stories-scientists-say-1.6187436 Quirks & Quarks Ancient Jordanian town destroyed by a meteor blast may have inspired Biblical stories, scientists say Archaeologists at the site found partially melted ruins and shattered human remains CBC Radio ? Posted: Sep 24, 2021 3:51 PM ET | Last Updated: September 24 A thriving town in the Jordan River valley was utterly annihilated by the explosion of a meteor 3,600 years ago, which produced a flash and shock wave that scorched and shattered buildings, animals and people. That's the scenario painted by a large collaboration of archaeologists, earth and space scientists who have been studying the remains of the Bronze Age town at a site called Tall el-Hammam in Jordan, not far from the Dead Sea. [...] "The significance to its past pales in what it foretells for the future, because this is going to happen again," he said. The Tunguska event shows that the Earth can still be struck by destructive objects from space, and if something similar were to happen over a city or populated region, the devastation would be enormous. "It just took it out in an instant, so that's a serious warning of what could happen ? what will happen ? in the future." -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From proto at panix.com Sun Oct 3 21:24:00 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:24:00 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Penric's Labors introduction In-Reply-To: References: <13a4fb01-9872-8697-59f9-e2b4a744612b@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: <18D6ADE6-A53D-4E1F-9583-AC4727B20B98@panix.com> > On Aug 10, 2021, at 7:14 AM, catherine muir wrote: > > My personal feeling is that the author should get out of the way of the > fiction as fast as possible, but there are other views. > > Ta, L. But of course, no faster. Tricky that. ? It?s better to be approximately correct than completely wrong. From proto at panix.com Sun Oct 3 21:44:13 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:44:13 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: The End of Slavery In-Reply-To: <241CE1AE-DE08-4B0A-8E4C-0EF57A5C47C2@brazee.net> References: <901C549D-6F89-4B6D-9517-DEE1E11189B7@brazee.net> <80206ac3-3435-d1e1-130d-195295bd8bca@yahoo.com> <241CE1AE-DE08-4B0A-8E4C-0EF57A5C47C2@brazee.net> Message-ID: > On Aug 30, 2021, at 6:48 PM, brazee wrote: > > > >> On Aug 30, 2021, at 1:44 PM, Matthew George wrote: >> >> The traditional standard for whether a belief system is 'Christian' is to >> see whether it affirms everything in the Nicene Creed. Mormonism, I >> believe, does not, and thus it is not a form of Christianity, regardless of >> what Mormons think about the matter. > > Depending on whose tradition. I know someone who claims only the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches qualify. > > Others say John 3:16 is sufficient. And taking new texts as scripture disqualifies a tradition as Christian for some people, or makes the tradition heretical. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to proto at panix.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > ? MD. MS. in Law Robert Lustig ?If there?s a label on the food, it?s a warning label. That means it has been processed. Real food doesn?t need a label.? From proto at panix.com Sun Oct 3 22:19:31 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 17:19:31 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Film recs was End of Slavery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Sep 2, 2021, at 4:37 AM, C.Muir wrote: > > Sidelight: in the book of Exodus, the children of Israel wander round > the desert for forty years to give time for the slave generation to die > off, before they are ready to invade the promised land. Ending slavery > is not just an external manumission. And then after escaping from slavery, they murdered inclusive or enslaved the peoples of their new home. Let me say, I am not fond of their alleged deity. ? A unix salesperson, Lenore Loved her job, but loved the beach more. She devised such a way to combine work and play: She sells C-shells by the seashore. From howard at brazee.net Sun Oct 3 22:56:50 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 15:56:50 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Balloons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 3, 2021, at 7:07 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > Yesterday, was the beginning of the Albuquerque International Hot Air Balloon Fiesta. The weather was perfect. We only had 576 balloons this year. Many pilots from outside the USA couldn?t come but many store their balloons in the US and let other pilots fly them. It must be 15 years or so since the last time I attended. I?ve gone a half dozen times or so. From howard at brazee.net Sun Oct 3 23:00:14 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:00:14 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: <0EA84FE6-BB73-4293-B0BC-81F3FC2526E3@panix.com> References: <0EA84FE6-BB73-4293-B0BC-81F3FC2526E3@panix.com> Message-ID: <4C23C1D5-5993-4EFD-B64E-1ACA0CA81F97@brazee.net> > On Oct 2, 2021, at 9:03 AM, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > He wrote women the way he wanted them to be, or perhaps as part of his > fanbase wanted them to be or both, of course. I suppose he wrote men the way he wanted them to be as well. From becca7108 at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 23:01:19 2021 From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 18:01:19 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Beethoven's 5 Secrets Message-ID: Daughter Tori introduces me to some amazing music - and this 5 minute video made me wish it were much longer. The lead cellest is having an absolute ball playing, which makes it even more fun to watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ_fkw5j-t0 -- *"...there is no effort without error and shortcoming" - Theodore Roosevelt * From howard at brazee.net Sun Oct 3 23:01:56 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:01:56 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52D68F85-BB3B-4AEB-91DD-80F15E5754E5@brazee.net> > On Oct 2, 2021, at 8:30 AM, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > > I am quite an admirer of Heinlein's books and his writing (insofar as I > have read them), but I always wondered if he had ever met a real live > woman. I am told he did. His books don't reflect it. Understood. At least he didn?t have the stereotype that *most* SF had for secretaries and moms. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Sun Oct 3 23:15:48 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 00:15:48 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3saklg5577gdolbudj6ij4cr85k2l81fto@4ax.com> On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 12:48:50 -0400, Elizabeth Holden wrote: >I have no problem with that. I like Heinlein's writing, and his ideas are >interesting and I agree with a good part of them. Haven't read them all; >I've heard odd things about some of them. I haven't read any of the books >my friends seem to like best, i.e., Starship Troopers. Hated the movie. It's *nothing* like the book. -- fundamentalism (n.): fund = give cash to; amentalism = brainlessness From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Sun Oct 3 23:18:49 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 00:18:49 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Oct 2021 08:21:13 -0400, Fred wrote: > >I Will Fear No Evil is one of the ones that I read but couldn't enjoy. I >found that most of his "late" books were like that. In an introduction to >an anthology (so long ago I can't recall which anthology), written by (I >think) Lester delRey (or maybe not) commented that whenHeinlein was great >when under tight editorial control (e.g., the "Boys" books, and some other >early works), but when let free tended to "sprawl" badly. I hadn't >previously thought of that as a description, but it seems to fit. "Too Big To Edit" is seldom a good thing for anyone concerned. -- fundamentalism (n.): fund = give cash to; amentalism = brainlessness From pouncer at aol.com Sun Oct 3 23:25:22 2021 From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 17:25:22 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 References: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4.ref@aol.com> Message-ID: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4@aol.com> Matthew George: { revenons ? nos moutons } >It's not at all clear to me that the making of spirit rings >can ever be good, even if the person imbued gives permission, >given what must be done to preserve the soul. The mortality >of souls is a point on which this story dive0rges from, say, >traditional Catholic doctrine. Traditional Christian >doctrine, really. Shamans' craft, as discussed in _Hallowed Hunt_ and "Penric and the Shaman" raise similar concerns. We see attempts to save a soul by attaching it to an inanimate object -- banner, knife, whatever. The shamans at least have an excuse. The human soul entangled with the animal spirit is protected until it can be saved for heaven. Vitelli's motives seem more selfish. If I recall correctly there would be no point at which the pickled body would be transferred to a proper grave, nor a bound soul earn redemption along with release from the binding metal. The later chapter of Uri's special case, we can take up in the proper time. But I am wondering if the Weald has some sort of heretic shaman deliberately binding spirit/souls to weapons rather than warriors. The warriors carrying animal spirits have powers. Would a warrior carrying a "cursed" blade be more effective? -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 23:32:31 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 18:32:31 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 6:18 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > On Sun, 3 Oct 2021 08:21:13 -0400, Fred wrote: > > > > >I Will Fear No Evil is one of the ones that I read but couldn't enjoy. > ... commented that whenHeinlein was great > >when under tight editorial control... but when let free tended to > "sprawl" badly. > > "Too Big To Edit" is seldom a good thing for anyone concerned. > -- > Oh wow. Anita Blake by LKH comes to mind. Oh, the train wreck. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Sun Oct 3 23:35:37 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 00:35:37 +0200 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8nbklg9a4mvkg3r6o7ng7l1c2enp1bla4t@4ax.com> On Fri, 1 Oct 2021 03:48:19 +0000, Joel Polowin wrote: >But terminal vowels in personal names *universally* code for "female". ...in your culture. Klaus Maria Brandauer? Cuba Gooding Jr? Anyone called Elisha, Joshua, or Ezra, Ira, Misha, Luca? Nicola Tesla? -- Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Isaac Asamov From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Sun Oct 3 23:39:14 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 00:39:14 +0200 Subject: [LMB] ot: recommending Georgette Heyer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 16:26:01 +0000, catherine muir wrote: >A friend of mine once tried to equate Geogette Heyer with Barbara Cartland. When I came down from the ceiling and stopped sputtering, I recommended 3 books ? the ?waterloo? ones: that is, The Spanish Bride (Peninsular Campaign to Waterloo): An Infamous Army (the Hundred Days): and A Civil Contract (the view from civilian England). These are not primarily the comedies of manners we usually recommend; but perhaps Peter might find them more to his taste as historicals? > >(incidentally, my friend commented later that she found the books rather dangerous because ?she forgot everything else? while reading them. Point?) > >Oh, and a warning: Peter, NEVER read anything by Barbara Cartland. Horrible, horrible, horrible woman. Someone dubbed her "Cruelty without beauty", a riff on a cosmetics ad. She was asked once in an interview if she thought class distinctions were breaking down, to which she replied: "Obviously, or I'd not be talking to a person like you." -- A nation which thinks that it is belief in God and not good law which makes people honest does not seem to me very advanced. - Denis Diderot From becca7108 at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 23:41:04 2021 From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 18:41:04 -0400 Subject: [LMB] ot: recommending Georgette Heyer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Barbara Cartland also stole Heyer's plots wholesale, sometimes just barely changing the names of the characters. Her theft of Black Moth was criminal. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Sun Oct 3 23:43:11 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 00:43:11 +0200 Subject: [LMB] OT: gender roles. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1ecklghb1c93lukjn3ch61avlsigr4os0q@4ax.com> On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 16:00:52 -0500, Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold wrote: >On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 3:34 PM Kevin Kennedy wrote: > >> I call pizza on the discussion, or take it off list. Thinks are getting >> rather harsh. >> > >I would like my pizza with garlic, artichoke hearts, olives, and ground >beef, thank you. Mine tonight had Gorgonzola, proscuito, walnuts, and fig jam. Delish. -- A nation which thinks that it is belief in God and not good law which makes people honest does not seem to me very advanced. - Denis Diderot From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 23:55:06 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 17:55:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree. He was also a graduate of Naval Academy at Annapolis. He served aboard the USS Lexington but he was discharged when he got tuberculosis. He lead a fascinating life. On Sat, Oct 2, 2021, 9:45 PM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Having said what I said about not reading SF authors of Heinlein's > generation, I realized I had no sense of when he was born or what his > generation was. So I looked him up. > > He was born in 1907, which makes him roughly the same generation as my > parents - a little older, though not by much. > > So when he was growing up, women couldn't vote yet. He grew up through > World War I, the 1920s... he was in his thirties when World War II came > along. He was the same age as Robert E. Howard and James A. Michener. > > He was so forward-thinking and future-oriented, I thought he was decades > younger than that. My respect for him has grown. (And understand that I > already respected him.) > > Remarkable. > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From fishman at panix.com Sun Oct 3 23:57:31 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 22:57:31 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: gender roles. In-Reply-To: <1ecklghb1c93lukjn3ch61avlsigr4os0q@4ax.com> References: <1ecklghb1c93lukjn3ch61avlsigr4os0q@4ax.com> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Marc Wilson" To: "LMB" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 10/3/2021 6:43:11 PM Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: gender roles. >Mine tonight had Gorgonzola, proscuito, walnuts, and fig jam. Delish. > Gorgonzola was the only cheese on that pizza? Strange!! Harvey From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 23:58:46 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 17:58:46 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I tried to read that book a long time ago. I couldn't get into it either. I totally forgot about until you brought it up. On Sat, Oct 2, 2021, 10:14 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > To be fair, he wasn't in good shape at the time. He had some sort of > stroke around the time he was done with it and didn't get to go over the > MS, at least as I recall. > > On Sat, Oct 2, 2021, 10:08 PM Joel Polowin wrote: > > > Elizabeth Holden wrote: > > > Alayne said: > > >> Last year, I got the audiobook of _I Will Fear No Evil_ from the > library > > >> and returned it after getting to the point that the main character > wakes > > >> up after the transplant. I realized I loathed *everyone* in it -- > > > I can't recall if I read that one; I think not. Shall I guess that his > > > writing was, generally speaking, uneven? > > > > Approximately: A Heinleinian curmudgeon dies suddenly -- heart attack, > > or something like that. By chance, at the same time, his extremely hot > > secretary is in a serious accident and brain-dead. A brain transplant > > is performed. The curmudgeon spends the rest of a very long book in > > a female body, hearing what he believes is the voice of the secretary > > advising him about female sexuality. There is much pontification. > > > > It isn't one of his better works. > > > > Joel > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 00:05:31 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 18:05:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Names with *a. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just looked up the meaning of 'Dana' in Hebrew it means arbiter. On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 10:32 AM B Van Look wrote: > On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 2:42 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > > > Dana Frederick White! President of the Ultimate Fighting Championship. > > > > Also Dana Elcar, actor. > Popularly known for Black Sheep Squadron and MacGuyver. > > BJ > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From vanlook19 at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 00:08:50 2021 From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:08:50 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 4:11 AM Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > I'm familiar with the term "mansplaining," but we need another word when > it's women telling another woman that she doesn't experience what she > thinks she experiences (and recommending books to tell her what she ought > to feel.) Perhaps "matronising"? It's unfortunate that you read that reply as entirely to tidsel, after I answered their quite forthright question. For the people in the back, the rest of the reply--addressed to Harvey (and other individuals missing contemporary data on female reproductive biology, psychology and endocrinology): Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science that Will Transform Your Sex Life by Emily Nagoski https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LD1ORBI and The Pleasure Gap: American Women and the Unfinished Sexual Revolution by Katherine Rowland https://www.amazon.com/Pleasure-Gap-American-Unfinished-Revolution-ebook/dp/B07RKW3FZ7 BJ From vanlook19 at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 00:15:02 2021 From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:15:02 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Film recs was End of Slavery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 2:19 PM WalterStuartBushell wrote: > And then after escaping from slavery, they murdered inclusive or enslaved > the peoples of their new home. Let me say, I am not fond of their alleged > deity. > Spot on. I have found problematic a deity who cannot, or will not, model the rules they impose on their followers Thou shalt not murder... unless it's the first born of Egypt Thou shalt not covet... unless it's the entire land of Canaan If any being could lead by example, it should be a deity, especially the one who claims to have invented people. Not impressed either BJ From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 00:19:31 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 18:19:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: historical analogue for the meteor in The Calculating Stars by Mary Robinette Kowal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fascinating. If true, this would be the first evidence of a town wiped out by a meteor impact. I wonder if they found evidence of any rare Earth minerals. That would be quite conclusive. That could have been the same century that the Mediterranean island Thera blew its top. On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 11:40 AM wrote: > Archeologists have found a case where they think an exploding meteor > destroyed a city: > > > https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/sep-25-bronze-age-town-destroyed-by-meteor-global-warming-makes-animals-shapeshift-and-more-1.6187428/ancient-jordanian-town-destroyed-by-a-meteor-blast-may-have-inspired-biblical-stories-scientists-say-1.6187436 > > Quirks & Quarks > Ancient Jordanian town destroyed by a meteor blast may have inspired > Biblical > stories, scientists say > Archaeologists at the site found partially melted ruins and shattered > human > remains > CBC Radio ? Posted: Sep 24, 2021 3:51 PM ET | Last Updated: September 24 > > A thriving town in the Jordan River valley was utterly annihilated by the > explosion of a meteor 3,600 years ago, which produced a flash and shock > wave > that scorched and shattered buildings, animals and people. > > That's the scenario painted by a large collaboration of archaeologists, > earth > and space scientists who have been studying the remains of the Bronze Age > town > at a site called Tall el-Hammam in Jordan, not far from the Dead Sea. > > [...] > "The significance to its past pales in what it foretells for the future, > because this is going to happen again," he said. The Tunguska event shows > that the Earth can still be struck by destructive objects from space, and > if something similar were to happen over a city or populated region, the > devastation would be enormous. > > "It just took it out in an instant, so that's a serious warning of what > could happen ? what will happen ? in the future." > > -- > Alayne McGregor > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > > What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We > need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the > institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate > and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From mathews55 at msn.com Mon Oct 4 00:20:09 2021 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 23:20:09 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: <8nbklg9a4mvkg3r6o7ng7l1c2enp1bla4t@4ax.com> References: <8nbklg9a4mvkg3r6o7ng7l1c2enp1bla4t@4ax.com> Message-ID: In any culture with a leavy Latin influence, because the largest collection of feminine nouns universally ended in "a" in that language. (First Declension, I believe. Out of 5.) "...us" for masculine and '..um" for neuter.) Outside of the Latinsphere, no. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Marc Wilson Sent: Sunday, October 3, 2021 4:35 PM To: LMB Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles On Fri, 1 Oct 2021 03:48:19 +0000, Joel Polowin wrote: >But terminal vowels in personal names *universally* code for "female". ...in your culture. Klaus Maria Brandauer? Cuba Gooding Jr? Anyone called Elisha, Joshua, or Ezra, Ira, Misha, Luca? Nicola Tesla? -- Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Isaac Asamov -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From mathews55 at msn.com Mon Oct 4 00:20:55 2021 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 23:20:55 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Heinlein was also contemporary with TV's Archie Bunker. Think on that for a while! ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Raymond Collins Sent: Sunday, October 3, 2021 4:55 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Heinlein I agree. He was also a graduate of Naval Academy at Annapolis. He served aboard the USS Lexington but he was discharged when he got tuberculosis. He lead a fascinating life. On Sat, Oct 2, 2021, 9:45 PM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Having said what I said about not reading SF authors of Heinlein's > generation, I realized I had no sense of when he was born or what his > generation was. So I looked him up. > > He was born in 1907, which makes him roughly the same generation as my > parents - a little older, though not by much. > > So when he was growing up, women couldn't vote yet. He grew up through > World War I, the 1920s... he was in his thirties when World War II came > along. He was the same age as Robert E. Howard and James A. Michener. > > He was so forward-thinking and future-oriented, I thought he was decades > younger than that. My respect for him has grown. (And understand that I > already respected him.) > > Remarkable. > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 00:29:06 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 18:29:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not to mention J K Rowling. On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 5:32 PM Sylvia McIvers wrote: > On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 6:18 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > > > On Sun, 3 Oct 2021 08:21:13 -0400, Fred wrote: > > > > > > > >I Will Fear No Evil is one of the ones that I read but couldn't enjoy. > > ... commented that whenHeinlein was great > > >when under tight editorial control... but when let free tended to > > "sprawl" badly. > > > > > > "Too Big To Edit" is seldom a good thing for anyone concerned. > > -- > > > > Oh wow. Anita Blake by LKH comes to mind. > Oh, the train wreck. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From jpolowin at hotmail.com Mon Oct 4 00:34:10 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 23:34:10 +0000 Subject: [LMB] terminal vowels (was OT: Gender Roles) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Marc Wilson wrote: > On Fri, 1 Oct 2021 03:48:19 +0000, Joel Polowin wrote: >> But terminal vowels in personal names *universally* code for "female". > ...in your culture. > [snip many examples] I was being *extremely* sarcastic there (along with describing Heinlein as a "documentarian of human sexuality"). I should have been more explicit about that -- _mea culpa_. Joel From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 00:37:10 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 18:37:10 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Heinlein was born in same year as my Grandmother. On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 6:21 PM Pat Mathews wrote: > Heinlein was also contemporary with TV's Archie Bunker. Think on that for > a while! > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Raymond Collins > Sent: Sunday, October 3, 2021 4:55 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [LMB] Heinlein > > I agree. He was also a graduate of Naval Academy at Annapolis. He served > aboard the USS Lexington but he was discharged when he got tuberculosis. He > lead a fascinating life. > > On Sat, Oct 2, 2021, 9:45 PM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > > > Having said what I said about not reading SF authors of Heinlein's > > generation, I realized I had no sense of when he was born or what his > > generation was. So I looked him up. > > > > He was born in 1907, which makes him roughly the same generation as my > > parents - a little older, though not by much. > > > > So when he was growing up, women couldn't vote yet. He grew up through > > World War I, the 1920s... he was in his thirties when World War II came > > along. He was the same age as Robert E. Howard and James A. Michener. > > > > He was so forward-thinking and future-oriented, I thought he was decades > > younger than that. My respect for him has grown. (And understand that I > > already respected him.) > > > > Remarkable. > > > > namaste, > > Elizabeth > > > > Elizabeth Holden > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Mon Oct 4 00:37:36 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 17:37:36 -0600 Subject: [LMB] ot: recommending Georgette Heyer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 3, 2021, at 4:41 PM, Becca Price wrote: > > Barbara Cartland also stole Heyer's plots wholesale, sometimes just barely > changing the names of the characters. Her theft of Black Moth was criminal. I didn?t read Heyer for her plots. (Here mysteries were predictable). From fishman at panix.com Mon Oct 4 00:45:13 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 23:45:13 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Eric Oppen" To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 10/3/2021 7:29:06 PM Subject: Re: [LMB] Heinlein >Not to mention J K Rowling. Yes, I really enjoyed Harry Potter (and bless the Brooklyn Public Librarian in the Paerdegat branch who misfiled _Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone_ in Adult Science Fiction oh so many years ago), but I have tried a few of her later books and gave them up early. Harvey From howard at brazee.net Mon Oct 4 00:46:28 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 17:46:28 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 1, 2021, at 12:21 PM, Matthew George wrote: > > It's curious that the salt-and-pepper shaker's powers never come into the > story. In the light of what we eventually learn about the pepper side's > power, it's a little surprising that it doesn't seem to be involved in the > disastrous conflict and its fallout. Chekhov's Gun isn't a hard and fast > principle, but never using an introduced element is an odd choice, even > though it makes the story somewhat more realistic. But they were a ?realistic? depiction mixing our historical reality with the magical world. From howard at brazee.net Mon Oct 4 00:47:20 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 17:47:20 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 1, 2021, at 12:21 PM, Matthew George wrote: > > It's not at all clear to me that the making of spirit rings can ever be > good, even if the person imbued gives permission, given what must be done > to preserve the soul. The mortality of souls is a point on which this > story diverges from, say, traditional Catholic doctrine. Traditional > Christian doctrine, really. An amazing amount of traditions in ?Christian? countries involved ghosts and lost souls. From beatrice_otter at zoho.com Mon Oct 4 01:12:38 2021 From: beatrice_otter at zoho.com (Beatrice Otter) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 17:12:38 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: <3saklg5577gdolbudj6ij4cr85k2l81fto@4ax.com> References: <3saklg5577gdolbudj6ij4cr85k2l81fto@4ax.com> Message-ID: <17c48a5326a.d1c8c52f28404.1563633655425997484@zoho.com> ---- On Sun, 03 Oct 2021 15:15:48 -0700 Marc Wilson wrote ---- On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 12:48:50 -0400, Elizabeth Holden wrote: >I have no problem with that. I like Heinlein's writing, and his ideas are >interesting and I agree with a good part of them. Haven't read them all; >I've heard odd things about some of them. I haven't read any of the books >my friends seem to like best, i.e., Starship Troopers. Hated the movie. It's *nothing* like the book. Beatrice Otter: No, indeed it isn't! I love this old review of the movie: https://web.archive.org/web/20180509155155/http://doyleandmacdonald.com/r_startro.htm It's scathing in the extreme, and the last line in particular is great (and true): "Oh yeah?that reminds me. There's this really neat book with a similar name. It's called Starship Troopers, by Robert A. Heinlein. Maybe someday somone will make it into a movie." Beatrice Otter From wawenri at msn.com Mon Oct 4 01:29:11 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 00:29:11 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Balloons In-Reply-To: <2e4e51f0-578d-c2ca-58a3-f36067492157@chello.at> References: <2e4e51f0-578d-c2ca-58a3-f36067492157@chello.at> Message-ID: Actually sparkling apple juice for the toast and ice water for the baptism. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold Sent: Sunday, October 3, 2021 7:18:24 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Cc: Markus Baur Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Balloons Am 03.10.2021 um 15:07 schrieb WILLIAM A WENRICH: > Yesterday, was the beginning of the Albuquerque International Hot Air Balloon Fiesta. The weather was perfect. We only had 576 balloons this year. Many pilots from outside the USA couldn?t come but many store their balloons in the US and let other pilots fly them. > All four granddaughters, Emma, Hazel, Elanor, and Anna slept over at our house. We got up at 3:00 am and left the house at 4:05. It took longer in line to get a parking spot (and $20) than to drive to Balloon Fiesta Park. We are all part of the Clutch Crew that sets up, chases, and takes down the balloon, so we had passes to the field, saving $75. > We only have one balloon this year since Graham Bell, our pilot from England, wasn?t able to come. Hazel, Emma, and Elanor flew on the first flight, Elanor for the first time. did they do the proper baptism with champagne and fire.. ? servus markus > A good, if tiring time was had by all. > > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C1aa991cf384a4b65b02c08d986704bbe%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637688639142154288%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=hfZezhqslplR70xKSF5yi1LuvOVGbMkHfzmF%2FgLaB%2FU%3D&reserved=0 From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 01:47:42 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 19:47:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: historical analogue for the meteor in The Calculating Stars by Mary Robinette Kowal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I found another article on Tell el-Hamman at www.nature.com it's the research document by the archaeologists who's excavating the site. On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 6:19 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > Fascinating. If true, this would be the first evidence of a town wiped out > by a meteor impact. I wonder if they found evidence of any rare Earth > minerals. That would be quite conclusive. That could have been the same > century that the Mediterranean island Thera blew its top. > > On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 11:40 AM wrote: > >> Archeologists have found a case where they think an exploding meteor >> destroyed a city: >> >> >> https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/sep-25-bronze-age-town-destroyed-by-meteor-global-warming-makes-animals-shapeshift-and-more-1.6187428/ancient-jordanian-town-destroyed-by-a-meteor-blast-may-have-inspired-biblical-stories-scientists-say-1.6187436 >> >> Quirks & Quarks >> Ancient Jordanian town destroyed by a meteor blast may have inspired >> Biblical >> stories, scientists say >> Archaeologists at the site found partially melted ruins and shattered >> human >> remains >> CBC Radio ? Posted: Sep 24, 2021 3:51 PM ET | Last Updated: September 24 >> >> A thriving town in the Jordan River valley was utterly annihilated by the >> explosion of a meteor 3,600 years ago, which produced a flash and shock >> wave >> that scorched and shattered buildings, animals and people. >> >> That's the scenario painted by a large collaboration of archaeologists, >> earth >> and space scientists who have been studying the remains of the Bronze Age >> town >> at a site called Tall el-Hammam in Jordan, not far from the Dead Sea. >> >> [...] >> "The significance to its past pales in what it foretells for the future, >> because this is going to happen again," he said. The Tunguska event shows >> that the Earth can still be struck by destructive objects from space, and >> if something similar were to happen over a city or populated region, the >> devastation would be enormous. >> >> "It just took it out in an instant, so that's a serious warning of what >> could happen ? what will happen ? in the future." >> >> -- >> Alayne McGregor >> alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca >> >> What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We >> need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the >> institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate >> and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> > From litalex at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 02:02:00 2021 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 21:02:00 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Beethoven's 5 Secrets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7B386115-AC54-4BCC-B6EA-541EBDFF7DB4@gmail.com> Hello, > On Oct 3, 2021, at 18:01, Becca Price wrote: > > Daughter Tori introduces me to some amazing music - and this 5 minute > video made me wish it were much longer. The lead cellest is having an > absolute ball playing, which makes it even more fun to watch. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ_fkw5j-t0 Beautiful. little Alex From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 02:28:20 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 20:28:20 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One problem with both Harry Potter and the Anita Blake books, IMO, is poorly-thought-out world-building. To be fair to her, Rowling never expected her books to become such an enormous success, and since she was (originally at least) mainly writing for children and teens, she didn't think things through as thoroughly as she might have. And I don't think Hamilton expected the Anita Blake books to go on for anything like as long as they have. Even so, though, I can pick holes in both series' backgrounds all day long. On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 6:45 PM Harvey Fishman wrote: > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Eric Oppen" > To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." > > Bcc: fishman at panix.com > Sent: 10/3/2021 7:29:06 PM > Subject: Re: [LMB] Heinlein > > >Not to mention J K Rowling. > Yes, I really enjoyed Harry Potter (and bless the Brooklyn Public > Librarian in the Paerdegat branch who misfiled _Harry Potter and the > Sorcerer's Stone_ in Adult Science Fiction oh so many years ago), but I > have tried a few of her later books and gave them up early. > > Harvey > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From litalex at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 02:35:14 2021 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 21:35:14 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1650FF62-CA4A-4EC9-A83F-5064BFD76FC4@gmail.com> Hello, > On Oct 3, 2021, at 18:18, Marc Wilson wrote: > > "Too Big To Edit" is seldom a good thing for anyone concerned. Yeah, I still remember the time when Anne Rice was pretty popular? little Alex From howard at brazee.net Mon Oct 4 02:47:04 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 19:47:04 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: <17c48a5326a.d1c8c52f28404.1563633655425997484@zoho.com> References: <3saklg5577gdolbudj6ij4cr85k2l81fto@4ax.com> <17c48a5326a.d1c8c52f28404.1563633655425997484@zoho.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 3, 2021, at 6:12 PM, Beatrice Otter via Lois-Bujold wrote: > >> I have no problem with that. I like Heinlein's writing, and his ideas are >> interesting and I agree with a good part of them. Haven't read them all; >> I've heard odd things about some of them. I haven't read any of the books >> my friends seem to like best, i.e., Starship Troopers. Hated the movie. > > It's *nothing* like the book. I haven?t seen it, but I never expected it to be anything like the book. Same with ?I, Robot?. Which is not sufficient reason to make it bad, only different. From howard at brazee.net Mon Oct 4 02:48:09 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 19:48:09 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B759BE6-5FA6-456B-A643-162988878DE3@brazee.net> > On Oct 3, 2021, at 7:28 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > One problem with both Harry Potter and the Anita Blake books, IMO, is > poorly-thought-out world-building. > > To be fair to her, Rowling never expected her books to become such an > enormous success, and since she was (originally at least) mainly writing > for children and teens, she didn't think things through as thoroughly as > she might have. And I don't think Hamilton expected the Anita Blake books > to go on for anything like as long as they have. Even so, though, I can > pick holes in both series' backgrounds all day long. True. And it?s a much, much darker world than I want kids to read about. But she couldn?t even build a rational sport. From fred.fredex at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 02:49:24 2021 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 21:49:24 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Beethoven's 5 Secrets In-Reply-To: <7B386115-AC54-4BCC-B6EA-541EBDFF7DB4@gmail.com> References: <7B386115-AC54-4BCC-B6EA-541EBDFF7DB4@gmail.com> Message-ID: very little Beethoven to it, and that is chopped up. Oh well. On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 9:02 PM Alex Kwan wrote: > Hello, > > > On Oct 3, 2021, at 18:01, Becca Price wrote: > > > > Daughter Tori introduces me to some amazing music - and this 5 minute > > video made me wish it were much longer. The lead cellest is having an > > absolute ball playing, which makes it even more fun to watch. > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ_fkw5j-t0 > > Beautiful. > > little Alex > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 02:52:23 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 20:52:23 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: <2B759BE6-5FA6-456B-A643-162988878DE3@brazee.net> References: <2B759BE6-5FA6-456B-A643-162988878DE3@brazee.net> Message-ID: Kids are actually a lot tougher-minded, at least in my experience, than doting parents want to think they are. Quidditch, according to something I read, was based partly on the "Wall Game" at Eton, which is just as weird. On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 8:48 PM brazee wrote: > > > > On Oct 3, 2021, at 7:28 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > > > One problem with both Harry Potter and the Anita Blake books, IMO, is > > poorly-thought-out world-building. > > > > To be fair to her, Rowling never expected her books to become such an > > enormous success, and since she was (originally at least) mainly writing > > for children and teens, she didn't think things through as thoroughly as > > she might have. And I don't think Hamilton expected the Anita Blake > books > > to go on for anything like as long as they have. Even so, though, I can > > pick holes in both series' backgrounds all day long. > > True. And it?s a much, much darker world than I want kids to read about. > > But she couldn?t even build a rational sport. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From becca7108 at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 02:54:41 2021 From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 21:54:41 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Beethoven's 5 Secrets In-Reply-To: References: <7B386115-AC54-4BCC-B6EA-541EBDFF7DB4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Other than some passages seeming reminiscent of Beethoven's style, I didn't look for any Beethoven, but correlated it with the Beethoven quote that opens the piece. On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 9:50 PM Fred wrote: > very little Beethoven to it, and that is chopped up. Oh well. > > On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 9:02 PM Alex Kwan wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > > On Oct 3, 2021, at 18:01, Becca Price wrote: > > > > > > Daughter Tori introduces me to some amazing music - and this 5 minute > > > video made me wish it were much longer. The lead cellest is having an > > > absolute ball playing, which makes it even more fun to watch. > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ_fkw5j-t0 > > > > Beautiful. > > > > little Alex > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to becca7108 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alzurite at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 03:15:04 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 22:15:04 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Names of girls Message-ID: Regarding the ending of female names with A, Pat Matthews said: > In any culture with a leavy Latin influence, because the largest collection of feminine nouns > universally ended in "a" in that language. True. Latin girls were given their father's family name with an A on the end of it. So I asked myself: is this just true of Latin names, and in countries where the languages were heavily influenced by Latin, or is it a general Indo-European trend? And is that known? I don't know enough about Proto-Indo-European to say, so I looked it up. Found this list of names. Most of them are masculine names, but the female names do seem to end in A. https://incubatorplus.fandom.com/wiki/Wp/ine/List_of_Proto-Indo-European_names This matches the few non-Latin languages of classical times that I know of, like Greek (Anastasia, Cleopatra - though they also seem to have a lot of female names ending in e.) Thinking of a language not influenced by Latin, I looked at Old Norse, where I find names like Helga, Hilda, Inga, Frigga, Freya, Yrsa, and the like, but a lot of others like Astrid and Gro and Tove. I see a lot of female a-names in Persian, too. In the cases of both Persian and Norse, I don't see male names ending in A. It seems odd to me that names like Abraham and Adam are listed, though, because surely they are Semitic names. Or is it all more complicated than I thought? (These are not scholarly websites, but I just wanted a few examples.) Anyway, it's a long tradition in Indo-European languages. With variations and counter-examples, but I think it's indicative. The interesting thing is that the typical name endings of Latin names for men haven't survived in the same way. You don't see a lot of men with names ending in -us in modern English-speaking countries, compared to the large number of women's names ending in -a. I wonder why. Old Norse names: https://en.natmus.dk/historical-knowledge/denmark/prehistoric-period-until-1050-ad/the-viking-age/the-people/names/ Persian names: https://www.peanut-app.io/blog/persian-baby-girl-names https://www.peanut-app.io/blog/persian-baby-boy-names namaste, Elizabeth whose name does not end in -a, but there are countries where I would be called Elizabeta Elizabeth Holden From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Mon Oct 4 03:43:55 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 22:43:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: historical analogue for the meteor in The Calculating Stars by Mary Robinette Kowal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Oct 2021, Raymond Collins wrote: > Fascinating. If true, this would be the first evidence of a town wiped out > by a meteor impact. I wonder if they found evidence of any rare Earth > minerals. That would be quite conclusive. >From the CBC story: "So far the team has found some material they think could be from the meteor, including tiny samples of rare metals often found in meteorites, but need to do more work to confirm their origin. LeCompte points out that excavation in the area can be difficult, particularly as much of the local landscape is currently occupied by Syrian refugees." Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Mon Oct 4 04:08:04 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 23:08:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: historical analogue for the meteor in The Calculating Stars by Mary Robinette Kowal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Oct 2021, Raymond Collins wrote: > I found another article on Tell el-Hamman at www.nature.com it's the > research document by the archaeologists who's excavating the site. Thank you. And apparently archeologists have found a comet airburst that destroyed a Neolithic village in Abu Hureyra, Syria, in 10,800 BCE with similar results: https://www.asor.org/anetoday/2021/03/cosmic-impact-abu-hureyra Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From vanlook19 at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 04:28:02 2021 From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 20:28:02 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Names of girls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 7:15 PM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Elizabeth > whose name does not end in -a, but there are countries where I would be > called Elizabeta > Elizabeth started as a variant of Isabel, passing through the Ysabet/Elisabet stage in English You can find the Ysabet/Elisabet in old parish records. BJ From alzurite at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 05:21:06 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 00:21:06 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixie Message-ID: Overcompensating because she was late last time, the Birthday Tixie hops on stage just moments after midnight, looks around nervously, and produces another letter, this time in the form of an email for Raye Johnson, from the ever-handsome and well-respected Captain Vorpatril. ~ ~ ~ From: ivanyouidiot at vorkosiganhouse.br To: Raye Johnson Dear Raye, Happy Birthday! Turning 46 - and as lovely as ever. Quick note here, just want to say you are warmly invited to celebrate your birthday at our new temporary home on Barrayar while we visit with our ever-expanding family (expanding with offspring, I mean, not territory). At last - some R&R and downtime. I know Tej and Ekaterin are particularly eager to see you, and we'll make sure Miles behaves himself. Unless you'd rather he didn't. Some people like chaos, I know. Ma Kosti promised to make her special cake with 46 multicolored candles, and your favourite pumpkin soup. Ekaterin picked out a symbolic bouquet from her garden grown just for you. Yours, IV namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 05:26:06 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 23:26:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: historical analogue for the meteor in The Calculating Stars by Mary Robinette Kowal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks. This comet or asteroid strike seems to have been considerably more destructive then the Tell el-Hamman strike. If it changed the environment, it might have been one of several strikes if the comet or asteroid broke up before entering Earth's atmosphere. I wonder how many other cultures were wiped out by this way? On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 10:08 PM wrote: > On Sun, 3 Oct 2021, Raymond Collins wrote: > > I found another article on Tell el-Hamman at www.nature.com it's the > > research document by the archaeologists who's excavating the site. > > Thank you. > > And apparently archeologists have found a comet airburst that destroyed a > Neolithic village in Abu Hureyra, Syria, in 10,800 BCE with similar > results: > > https://www.asor.org/anetoday/2021/03/cosmic-impact-abu-hureyra > > Alayne > > -- > Alayne McGregor > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > > What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We > need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the > institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate > and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From lynnia at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 05:29:42 2021 From: lynnia at gmail.com (Lynnia) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 22:29:42 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Birthday Excitement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you very much! What a lovely journey, and I do enjoy cake, music, and visiting! And please don't worry at all about being a little past the official date, it only spreads the joy a little longer! On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 8:23 AM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > The new Birthday Tixie jumps up, all dishevelled and embarrassed, a > calendar in one hand and a trumpet in the other. Belated already! She looks > nervously into all her pockets - and she has many - and finally finds the > letter that she sincerely meant to deliver yesterday to Kris Wiegand, who > gets an extra cake (with candles and little pink candy rosettes) because of > her late delivery with profuse (blushing) apologies. > > She finds the letter. She clears her throat, and hands it to him, knowing > she will be in trouble with Iselle for her tardiness. It says: > > > My Very Dear Kris Wiegand - > > Again it is your birthday - how time flies, in your world and ours. 45! A > splendid age, and we congratulate you on reaching it. > > Again we are balanced between the darkness of winter and the bright heat of > summer - making this the perfect time for a birthday and a visit. We have > such pleasant memories of our progress through Chalion with your pleasant > company. So pleasant, in fact, that we hope you will come and do it with > us again this year - all your expenses will be paid, of course. The > itinerary will be a little different, and this year it will include a visit > to Cazaril and Betriz and their remarkable child. As usual, the noblest > families will do their utmost to keep us all entertained, well fed, and > amazed by their splendours. I have heard rumours that the most remarkable > new singer will be at a certain castle - oh, please come and celebrate with > us again! > > In anticipation, > > Your friend, > > Iselle > > Chalion R > > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to lynnia at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 05:39:13 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 23:39:13 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Names of girls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think alot of names originated from the Hebrew language. Got filtered through Latin and Greek culture and eventually influenced and replaced names in the British Isles. On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 10:28 PM B Van Look wrote: > On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 7:15 PM Elizabeth Holden > wrote: > > > Elizabeth > > whose name does not end in -a, but there are countries where I would be > > called Elizabeta > > > > Elizabeth started as a variant of Isabel, passing through the > Ysabet/Elisabet stage in English > You can find the Ysabet/Elisabet in old parish records. > > BJ > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From jpolowin at hotmail.com Mon Oct 4 06:12:03 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 05:12:03 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: brazee wrote: > On Oct 3, 2021, at 7:28 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: >> One problem with both Harry Potter and the Anita Blake books, IMO, is >> poorly-thought-out world-building. >> >> To be fair to her, Rowling never expected her books to become such an >> enormous success, and since she was (originally at least) mainly writing >> for children and teens, she didn't think things through as thoroughly as >> she might have.? And I don't think Hamilton expected the Anita Blake books >> to go on for anything like as long as they have.? Even so, though, I can >> pick holes in both series' backgrounds all day long. > But she couldn?t even build a rational sport. ----- "So let me get this straight," Harry said as it seemed that Ron's explanation (with associated hand gestures) was winding down. "Catching the Snitch is worth one hundred and fifty points?" "Yeah--" "How many ten-point goals does one side usually score not counting the Snitch?" "Um, maybe fifteen or twenty in professional games--" "That's just wrong. That violates every possible rule of game design. Look, the rest of this game sounds like it might make sense, sort of, for a sport I mean, but you're basically saying that catching the Snitch overwhelms almost any ordinary point spread. The two Seekers are up there flying around looking for the Snitch and usually not interacting with anyone else, spotting the Snitch first is going to be mostly luck--" "It's not luck!" protested Ron. "You've got to keep your eyes moving in the right pattern--" "That's not interactive, there's no back-and-forth with the other player and how much fun is it to watch someone incredibly good at moving their eyes? And then whichever Seeker gets lucky swoops in and grabs the Snitch and makes everyone else's work moot. It's like someone took a real game and grafted on this pointless extra position so that you could be the Most Important Player without needing to really get involved or learn the rest of it. Who was the first Seeker, the King's idiot son who wanted to play Quidditch but couldn't understand the rules?" Actually, now that Harry thought about it, that seemed like a surprisingly good hypothesis. Put him on a broomstick and tell him to catch the shiny thing... ----- -- _Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality_, Eliezer Yudkowsky From lmb at matija.com Mon Oct 4 10:08:33 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 10:08:33 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: <17c48a5326a.d1c8c52f28404.1563633655425997484@zoho.com> References: <3saklg5577gdolbudj6ij4cr85k2l81fto@4ax.com> <17c48a5326a.d1c8c52f28404.1563633655425997484@zoho.com> Message-ID: <0b292734-34ef-9d68-283d-f8e6f8995770@matija.com> On 04/10/2021 01:12, Beatrice Otter via Lois-Bujold wrote: > Beatrice Otter: > > No, indeed it isn't! > > > I love this old review of the movie: https://web.archive.org/web/20180509155155/http://doyleandmacdonald.com/r_startro.htm > Oh, that's brilliant! Thank you for posting that! From lmb at matija.com Mon Oct 4 10:19:11 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 10:19:11 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/10/2021 06:12, Joel Polowin wrote: > brazee wrote: >> On Oct 3, 2021, at 7:28 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: >>> One problem with both Harry Potter and the Anita Blake books, IMO, is >>> poorly-thought-out world-building. >>> But she couldn?t even build a rational sport. > -- _Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality_, Eliezer Yudkowsky The second hearty laugh of the day! (The first one being the review of the ST movie). Thank you for posting that! From james at jbryant.eu Mon Oct 4 11:08:25 2021 From: james at jbryant.eu (James M. BRYANT G4CLF) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 11:08:25 +0100 Subject: [LMB] =?iso-8859-1?q?Rejoice!_OT=3A_HYV=C4=C4_KORVAPUUSTIP=C4IV?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=C4_/_GLAD_KANELBULLENS_DAG?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <202110041009.194A9FTt018115@lists.herald.co.uk> It's Cinnamon Roll Day in Finland & Sweden! https://jbryant.eu/Cinnamon.jpg James From baur at chello.at Mon Oct 4 12:40:11 2021 From: baur at chello.at (baur baur) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 13:40:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: historical analogue for the meteor in The Calculating Stars by Mary Robinette Kowal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1347331280.635700.1633347611912@webmail.mymagenta.at> actually rare earths are not indicative for meteoric impact shocked quartz, impact brecciae and other shock modifications are servus markus > Raymond Collins hat am 04.10.2021 01:19 geschrieben: > > > Fascinating. If true, this would be the first evidence of a town wiped out > by a meteor impact. I wonder if they found evidence of any rare Earth > minerals. That would be quite conclusive. That could have been the same > century that the Mediterranean island Thera blew its top. > > On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 11:40 AM wrote: > > > Archeologists have found a case where they think an exploding meteor > > destroyed a city: > > > > > > https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/sep-25-bronze-age-town-destroyed-by-meteor-global-warming-makes-animals-shapeshift-and-more-1.6187428/ancient-jordanian-town-destroyed-by-a-meteor-blast-may-have-inspired-biblical-stories-scientists-say-1.6187436 > > > > Quirks & Quarks > > Ancient Jordanian town destroyed by a meteor blast may have inspired > > Biblical > > stories, scientists say > > Archaeologists at the site found partially melted ruins and shattered > > human > > remains > > CBC Radio ? Posted: Sep 24, 2021 3:51 PM ET | Last Updated: September 24 > > > > A thriving town in the Jordan River valley was utterly annihilated by the > > explosion of a meteor 3,600 years ago, which produced a flash and shock > > wave > > that scorched and shattered buildings, animals and people. > > > > That's the scenario painted by a large collaboration of archaeologists, > > earth > > and space scientists who have been studying the remains of the Bronze Age > > town > > at a site called Tall el-Hammam in Jordan, not far from the Dead Sea. > > > > [...] > > "The significance to its past pales in what it foretells for the future, > > because this is going to happen again," he said. The Tunguska event shows > > that the Earth can still be struck by destructive objects from space, and > > if something similar were to happen over a city or populated region, the > > devastation would be enormous. > > > > "It just took it out in an instant, so that's a serious warning of what > > could happen ? what will happen ? in the future." > > > > -- > > Alayne McGregor > > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > > > > What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We > > need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the > > institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate > > and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From howard at brazee.net Mon Oct 4 13:56:53 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 06:56:53 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Names of girls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One of my favorite boy?s and girl?s name is Sasha, short for Alexander (and its variants). From kcollett at hamilton.edu Mon Oct 4 14:26:06 2021 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Kathy C.) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 09:26:06 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Names of girls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3BEAD845-D3E1-4144-A7A9-D0F4A299BD76@hamilton.edu> On Oct 3, 2021, at 11:28 PM, B Van Look wrote: > > Elizabeth started as a variant of Isabel, passing through the > Ysabet/Elisabet stage in English > You can find the Ysabet/Elisabet in old parish records. Other way round, surely. Elizabeth comes from Hebrew and appears in the Bible (e.g. Mary?s cousin is Elizabeth). My deep research (i.e. 2 seconds) on the internet indicates that Isabel is a Spanish variant that became popular in England: Isabel "originates as the medieval Spanish form of Elisabeth (ultimately Hebrew Elisheba), Arising in the 12th century, it became popular in England in the 13th century following the marriage of Isabella of Angoul?me to the king of England.? Katherine From kawyle at att.net Mon Oct 4 14:30:25 2021 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 13:30:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1815967464.1550312.1633354225936@mail.yahoo.com> I was thinking of exactly this brilliant takedown of Quidditch, plus the later response to "but how will we know the game is over": "Buy a clock." Karen A. Wyle On Monday, October 4, 2021, 01:12:18 AM EDT, Joel Polowin wrote: "So let me get this straight," Harry said as it seemed that Ron's explanation (with associated hand gestures) was winding down. "Catching the Snitch is worth one hundred and fifty points?" "Yeah--" "How many ten-point goals does one side usually score not counting the Snitch?" "Um, maybe fifteen or twenty in professional games--" "That's just wrong. That violates every possible rule of game design. Look, the rest of this game sounds like it might make sense, sort of, for a sport I mean, but you're basically saying that catching the Snitch overwhelms almost any ordinary point spread. The two Seekers are up there flying around looking for the Snitch and usually not interacting with anyone else, spotting the Snitch first is going to be mostly luck--" "It's not luck!" protested Ron. "You've got to keep your eyes moving in the right pattern--" "That's not interactive, there's no back-and-forth with the other player and how much fun is it to watch someone incredibly good at moving their eyes? And then whichever Seeker gets lucky swoops in and grabs the Snitch and makes everyone else's work moot. It's like someone took a real game and grafted on this pointless extra position so that you could be the Most Important Player without needing to really get involved or learn the rest of it. Who was the first Seeker, the King's idiot son who wanted to play Quidditch but couldn't understand the rules?" Actually, now that Harry thought about it, that seemed like a surprisingly good hypothesis.? Put him on a broomstick and tell him to catch the shiny thing... ----- -- _Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality_, Eliezer Yudkowsky From tzbarasc at lasierra.edu Mon Oct 4 15:24:45 2021 From: tzbarasc at lasierra.edu (Tony Zbaraschuk) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 09:24:45 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: historical analogue for the meteor in The Calculating Stars by Mary Robinette Kowal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 6:19 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > Fascinating. If true, this would be the first evidence of a town wiped out > by a meteor impact. I wonder if they found evidence of any rare Earth > minerals. That would be quite conclusive. That could have been the same > century that the Mediterranean island Thera blew its top. > I read the full paper. Yes, there is (some) evidence for an increase in rare elements, but most of it depends on various bits and pieces of Tell el-Hammam being exposed to higher temperatures than are typically found in any human activities (as in, at least a thousand degrees hotter than, say, smith- type activities usually get.). Various other evidence seems to indicate pretty impressive shock-waves as well. It's only fair to note that some other archaeologists are saying things like "but this is just a perfectly normal destruction layer" and "of course mudbrick walls get eroded off their stone foundations over time." Still, if this really is Sodom, it's pretty exciting. Tony Z -- Tony Zbaraschuk Bookworm, talker, learner Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" From lmb at matija.com Mon Oct 4 15:45:34 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:45:34 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: historical analogue for the meteor in The Calculating Stars by Mary Robinette Kowal In-Reply-To: <1347331280.635700.1633347611912@webmail.mymagenta.at> References: <1347331280.635700.1633347611912@webmail.mymagenta.at> Message-ID: <16a86476-fbc8-97a5-09af-511aab6b39fd@matija.com> Phil Plait, an astronomer (and author of "Death from the Skies"), linked some interesting comments about that article in his tweet: https://twitter.com/BadAstronomer/status/1440432115447783428 https://twitter.com/MarkBoslough/status/1440490620854800385 https://twitter.com/MarkBoslough/status/1440816755161518082 https://twitter.com/SoilManDan/status/1441012233476186114 On 04/10/2021 12:40, baur baur via Lois-Bujold wrote: > actually rare earths are not indicative for meteoric impact > > shocked quartz, impact brecciae and other shock modifications are > > servus > > markus > >> Raymond Collins hat am 04.10.2021 01:19 geschrieben: >> >> >> Fascinating. If true, this would be the first evidence of a town wiped out >> by a meteor impact. I wonder if they found evidence of any rare Earth >> minerals. That would be quite conclusive. That could have been the same >> century that the Mediterranean island Thera blew its top. >> >> On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 11:40 AM wrote: >> >>> Archeologists have found a case where they think an exploding meteor >>> destroyed a city: >>> >>> >>> https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/sep-25-bronze-age-town-destroyed-by-meteor-global-warming-makes-animals-shapeshift-and-more-1.6187428/ancient-jordanian-town-destroyed-by-a-meteor-blast-may-have-inspired-biblical-stories-scientists-say-1.6187436 >>> >>> Quirks & Quarks >>> Ancient Jordanian town destroyed by a meteor blast may have inspired >>> Biblical >>> stories, scientists say >>> Archaeologists at the site found partially melted ruins and shattered >>> human >>> remains >>> CBC Radio ? Posted: Sep 24, 2021 3:51 PM ET | Last Updated: September 24 >>> >>> A thriving town in the Jordan River valley was utterly annihilated by the >>> explosion of a meteor 3,600 years ago, which produced a flash and shock >>> wave >>> that scorched and shattered buildings, animals and people. >>> >>> That's the scenario painted by a large collaboration of archaeologists, >>> earth >>> and space scientists who have been studying the remains of the Bronze Age >>> town >>> at a site called Tall el-Hammam in Jordan, not far from the Dead Sea. >>> >>> [...] >>> "The significance to its past pales in what it foretells for the future, >>> because this is going to happen again," he said. The Tunguska event shows >>> that the Earth can still be struck by destructive objects from space, and >>> if something similar were to happen over a city or populated region, the >>> devastation would be enormous. >>> >>> "It just took it out in an instant, so that's a serious warning of what >>> could happen ? what will happen ? in the future." >>> >>> -- >>> Alayne McGregor >>> alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca >>> >>> What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We >>> need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the >>> institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate >>> and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich >>> -- >>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >>> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From alzurite at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 16:47:40 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:47:40 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Birthday Excitement Message-ID: Lynnia said: > Thank you very much! What a lovely journey, and I do enjoy cake, music, and > visiting! And please don't worry at all about being a little past the > official date, it only spreads the joy a little longer! Your graciousness is much appreciated. Have a wonderful time! namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From pouncer at aol.com Mon Oct 4 18:18:51 2021 From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 12:18:51 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Neil Gaiman (was Heinlein) References: <403d02bb-3986-b3d1-65b8-ce47a9901554.ref@aol.com> Message-ID: <403d02bb-3986-b3d1-65b8-ce47a9901554@aol.com> Eric thinks: >Kids are actually a lot tougher-minded, at least in >my experience, than doting parents want to think >they are. https://untitledmx.com/2016/11/12/coraline/ https://thesaltofcarthage.tumblr.com/post/658619975795425280/space-trash-princess-neil-gaiman-feyariel Short version: Neil Gaiman's literary agent, Merrilee Heifetz, thought _Coraline_ was too scary for kids. Gaiman suggested that she should read it to her daughters, aged eight and six. Nine years later, the youngest daughter confessed to Gaiman that she was TERRIFIED by the story but refused to tell her mother because she wanted to know what happened next. And so the book was marketed to parents for children. -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com From wawenri at msn.com Mon Oct 4 19:46:01 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 18:46:01 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: <0b292734-34ef-9d68-283d-f8e6f8995770@matija.com> References: <3saklg5577gdolbudj6ij4cr85k2l81fto@4ax.com> <17c48a5326a.d1c8c52f28404.1563633655425997484@zoho.com> <0b292734-34ef-9d68-283d-f8e6f8995770@matija.com> Message-ID: It was different, but it was also very bad. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold Sent: Monday, October 4, 2021 3:08:33 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Cc: Matija Grabnar Subject: Re: [LMB] Heinlein On 04/10/2021 01:12, Beatrice Otter via Lois-Bujold wrote: > Beatrice Otter: > > No, indeed it isn't! > > > I love this old review of the movie: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fweb.archive.org%2Fweb%2F20180509155155%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fdoyleandmacdonald.com%2Fr_startro.htm&data=04%7C01%7C%7C40ca293caddd4b95e6c908d987169128%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637689353261349672%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=qDkCb2YT0Hz%2F%2BT4Rpgmwl9vQGbrRzsTEOYFmoAXmhTE%3D&reserved=0 > Oh, that's brilliant! Thank you for posting that! -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C40ca293caddd4b95e6c908d987169128%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637689353261349672%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=jqvVnpPvcgtV0xF2spnzw7NzgIAbprJdtUOLNk5JtJw%3D&reserved=0 From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 21:56:03 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 16:56:03 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 7:47 PM brazee wrote: > An amazing amount of traditions in ?Christian? countries involved ghosts > and lost souls. Yes, but the souls were considered inherently immortal. Saying that you have to feed a soul is basically heretical. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 22:02:31 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:02:31 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The trouble with Heinlein is that he has a radically different set of norms than the society in which he lived, which makes freethinkers think he was a freethinker himself. He wasn't. He was rigidly dogmatic and intolerant of anything that contradicted his preferences. A foretaste of today, in many ways. Curiously, his ideas are today generally either so totally accepted that they're taken for granted, or totally rejected. The then-shocking *Stranger in a Strange Land* is fairly old-fashioned by modern standards, except for the bits no one would take seriously today. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 22:06:00 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:06:00 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4@aol.com> References: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4.ref@aol.com> <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4@aol.com> Message-ID: If the spirit trapped in a weapon can draw energy out of the people it wounds, perhaps that would make it something like a D&D-esque "magic weapon". Kind of abominable, though. And without proper maintenance, lethal to the trapped spirit. Seems like the sort of thing that would attract the negative attention of the Gods. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 22:11:14 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:11:14 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Pale men, ON topic was Re: Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ingi, the albino boy from "Flowers of Vashnoi". I don't think it's a coincidence that particular physical abnormality was chosen, although obviously it's a good example of a mutation which has only minor implications for survival in the modern world. Matt g. From margdean56 at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 22:53:45 2021 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:53:45 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 2:54 PM Matthew George wrote: > On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 7:47 PM brazee wrote: > > > An amazing amount of traditions in ?Christian? countries involved ghosts > > and lost souls. > > > Yes, but the souls were considered inherently immortal. Saying that you > have to feed a soul is basically heretical. > I got the impression that the "feeding" of the soul (or ghost) was part of the binding process, that is, to hold it (unnaturally) on the earthly plane instead of letting it go on to whatever afterlife it was destined for--not that the soul would dissipate or be destroyed if it wasn't fed. In this way the situation in The Spirit Ring is different from that in the 5GU, where "sundering" (and eventual oblivion) is a possibility, so you have Inglis "feeding" Tollin's ghost in the knife so he won't be irrevocably sundered before he can be disentangled from the boar spirit and go to his god. --Margaret Dean From alzurite at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 05:13:46 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 00:13:46 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixie Message-ID: (A letter written on the official letterhead of the University of Sergyar, hastily scribbled.) 5 Oct. Dear Dr. Tora Smulders-Srinavasan, I wish you a happy 47th birthday, and a life of prosperity and joy. I do hope you don't mind being approached in this informal Betan manner - I am writing not in my official capacities with the government of Sergyar, but as a supporter of the University here. and the magnificent faculty they have assembled in the field of biomedical science, a subject that has always been dear to my heart. And my goodness, so badly needed. It is our wish that you will celebrate your birthday on the campus here as my guest, with a small garden party that will (I fear) contain most of the scientists on this planet who have admired your work from afar. They may have questions about your research, but I'll do my best to steer them to the marmalade scones and glitterberry wine and keep them from pestering you too much. I'm sure you will enjoy seeing our new state-of-the-art labs and research department. It won't all be work. It'll be fun. In anticipation, Cordelia Naismith Vorkosigan (Countess Vorkosigan) namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From raye_j at yahoo.com Tue Oct 5 14:24:48 2021 From: raye_j at yahoo.com (Raye Johnsen) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 13:24:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1661231630.2171246.1633440288703@mail.yahoo.com> Thank you so much for the good wishes!? I had a lovely time visiting the Vorpatril family residence, and meeting all the family!? The food was delicious, of course, and the flowers are beautiful! Thank you for the invitation; I enjoyed myself so much! Raye raye_j at yahoo.com? I believe in dragons, unicorns, good men?and other mythical creatures. On Monday, October 4, 2021, 02:21:31 PM GMT+10, Elizabeth Holden wrote: Overcompensating because she was late last time, the Birthday Tixie hops on stage just moments after midnight, looks around nervously, and produces another letter, this time in the form of an email for Raye Johnson, from the ever-handsome and well-respected Captain Vorpatril. ~ ~ ~ From: ivanyouidiot at vorkosiganhouse.br To: Raye Johnson Dear Raye, Happy Birthday! Turning 46 - and as lovely as ever. Quick note here, just want to say you are warmly invited to celebrate your birthday at our new temporary home on Barrayar while we visit with our ever-expanding family (expanding with offspring, I mean, not territory). At last - some R&R and downtime. I know Tej and Ekaterin are particularly eager to see you, and we'll make sure Miles behaves himself. Unless you'd rather he didn't. Some people like chaos, I know. Ma Kosti promised to make her special cake with 46 multicolored candles, and your favourite pumpkin soup. Ekaterin picked out a symbolic bouquet from her garden grown just for you. Yours, IV namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to raye_j at yahoo.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From pouncer at aol.com Tue Oct 5 19:13:26 2021 From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 13:13:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 References: <7af1914f-6709-0029-dc4b-291801fef3b7.ref@aol.com> Message-ID: <7af1914f-6709-0029-dc4b-291801fef3b7@aol.com> Howard says: >> An amazing amount of traditions in *Christian* countries >>involved ghosts and lost souls. Matthew George replies: >Yes, but the souls were considered inherently immortal. >Saying that you have to feed a soul is basically heretical. When your soul, temporarily, inhabits a mortal body, you have to "keep body and soul together" (as the traditional expression has it) by feeding the body. I see no heresy in extending the observation to suppose that while or when your soul continues to inhabit the mortal realm, eschewing the ethereal destinations available, your soul would continue to need some way to keep it from fading or drifting away or otherwise degrading. Keeping grave and soul together. Or gibbet and soul. Or Gothic Mansion and soul together. Whatever. The fear that the sustenance of the ghost imposes a cost on the living would seem to be part of why the living want to avoid the incompletely dead. What MAY be heresy, depending on your faith tradtions, is the claim that "your soul is basically immortal." Many argue that your, and most, souls are destined to be lost or destroyed, in fire or otherwise, unless specifically salvaged. Ethereal, yes. Immortal -- under dispute. The tension between releasing a captive victim ghost, and destroying a wild monster ghost, or even temporarily harboring a forlorn stray ghost, are part of what we explore in _Spirit Ring_. What is the obligation of the living to the dead? What benefits can the dead offer the living? What threats? What is food for a ghost? -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com From matt.msg at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 14:45:31 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 09:45:31 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: <7af1914f-6709-0029-dc4b-291801fef3b7@aol.com> References: <7af1914f-6709-0029-dc4b-291801fef3b7.ref@aol.com> <7af1914f-6709-0029-dc4b-291801fef3b7@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 2:13 PM Pouncer via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > What MAY be heresy, depending on your faith tradtions, > is the claim that "your soul is basically immortal." Many > argue that your, and most, souls are destined to be lost > or destroyed, in fire or otherwise, unless specifically > salvaged. Ethereal, yes. Immortal -- under dispute. > You don't understand the traditional doctrines on the subject, that's clear. It's the difference between damnation - the active consignment of a soul to punishment and possible destruction - and sundering - the passive consignment of a soul to destruction through decay and the absence of active preservation. Given that we're supposed to be dealing with the Catholic Church, or a version of it, the ways in which the organization's doctrines in *The Spirit Ring* differ from those of the real organization are highly relevant - and are likely a major reason why *The Curse of Chalion* moves to a wholly new religion instead of having a Catholicism expy. Matt G. From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Wed Oct 6 14:44:28 2021 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 13:44:28 +0000 Subject: [LMB] ot: a much better ending Message-ID: For years, _The Giving Tree_ has been herdmaster of my pet peeves.? Finally, someone on the Doubleclicks discord [a most excellent band, highly recommended] posted this?much better ending! ?https://karenfollows.tumblr.com/post/664262765882507264/leemoyer-cheshirelibrary-sometimes-classics ? ? Jerrie From kcollett at hamilton.edu Wed Oct 6 15:16:21 2021 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Kathy C.) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 10:16:21 -0400 Subject: [LMB] ot: a much better ending In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45A37608-C211-49AE-9FEC-2B7EACDFCECD@hamilton.edu> On Oct 6, 2021, at 9:44 AM, adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com wrote: > > For years, _The Giving Tree_ has been herdmaster of my pet peeves. Finally, someone on the Doubleclicks discord [a most excellent band, highly recommended] posted this much better ending! https://karenfollows.tumblr.com/post/664262765882507264/leemoyer-cheshirelibrary-sometimes-classics > Yes! Here it is at Topher Payne?s website: https://www.topherpayne.com/giving-tree. And also an alternate ending for The Rainbow Fish, which I?m not as familiar with, but I?ve heard my daughter-in-law?s magnificent take-down of the terrible life advice in the original (which if I remember correctly is something like change yourself, make yourself less, so you can get a girlfriend ? bad advice anyway, but really not appropriate to three-year-olds!!). Katherine From egern at protonmail.com Wed Oct 6 15:21:52 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 14:21:52 +0000 Subject: [LMB] =?utf-8?b?UmVqb2ljZSEgT1Q6IEhZVsOEw4QgS09SVkFQVVVTVElQw4RJ?= =?utf-8?q?V=C3=84_/_GLAD_KANELBULLENS_DAG?= In-Reply-To: <202110041009.194A9FTt018115@lists.herald.co.uk> References: <202110041009.194A9FTt018115@lists.herald.co.uk> Message-ID: <2oV44F_BRY4WcxMxre-ejw-jf4gnfLRY5SF2gptgZtButadFNIbWglc4xZiPICj9eMymqrt5AkEOSFYxFmMrH4GFwW3E0DaSoZpSOQBQuTw=@protonmail.com> So it is :-)) Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Monday, October 4th, 2021 at 12:08 PM, James M. BRYANT G4CLF wrote: > It's Cinnamon Roll Day in Finland & Sweden! > > https://jbryant.eu/Cinnamon.jpg > > James > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to egern at protonmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From matt.msg at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 17:09:00 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 12:09:00 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Gender Roles In-Reply-To: References: <8nbklg9a4mvkg3r6o7ng7l1c2enp1bla4t@4ax.com> Message-ID: Tolkien changed the hobbits' names, because in his fictional culture 'a' was a masculine ending. They were named Froda and Bilba 'originally', although since Tolkien created all of the levels of the fiction discussing this succinctly is difficult. This conceals one of the call-outs he placed in the novels, because 'Froda' was a character from Nordic legend that 'Frodo' is clearly referencing. Matt G. From baur at chello.at Wed Oct 6 17:36:06 2021 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 18:36:06 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Auto-womb In-Reply-To: <4527.1633477514978076556@groups.io> References: <4527.1633477514978076556@groups.io> Message-ID: <1ac800d1-05c1-45f4-0981-12570f9dd3d3@chello.at> from another list servus markus -------------------- https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/04/25/525044286/scientists-create-artificial-womb-that-could-help-prematurely-born-babies?utm_content=buffer6c98c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer Scientists Create Artificial Womb That Could Help Prematurely Born Babies April 25, 201711:10 AM ET Heard on All Things Considered Rob Stein, photographed for NPR, 22 January 2020, in Washington DC. ROB STEIN An illustration of a fetal lamb inside the "artificial womb" device, which mimics the conditions inside a pregnant animal. The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia Scientists have created an "artificial womb" in the hopes of someday using the device to save babies born extremely prematurely. So far the device has only been tested on fetal lambs. A study published Tuesday involving eight animals found the device appears effective at enabling very premature fetuses to develop normally for about a month. "We've been extremely successful in replacing the conditions in the womb in our lamb model," says Alan Flake, a fetal surgeon at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia who led the study published in the journal Nature Communications. "They've had normal growth. They've had normal lung maturation. They've had normal brain maturation. They've had normal development in every way that we can measure it," Flake says. Flake says the group hopes to test the device on very premature human babies within three to five years. "What we tried to do is develop a system that mimics the environment of the womb as closely as possible," Flake says. "It's basically an artificial womb." Inside an artificial womb The device consists of a clear plastic bag filled with synthetic amniotic fluid. A machine outside the bag is attached to the umbilical cord to function like a placenta, providing nutrition and oxygen to the blood and removing carbon dioxide. "The whole idea is to support normal development; to re-create everything that the mother does in every way that we can to support normal fetal development and maturation," Flake says. Other researchers praised the advance, saying it could help thousands of babies born very prematurely each year, if tests in humans were to prove successful. Premature Lamb A 107-day-old lamb fetus, which is equivalent to a 23- 25-week-old human fetus, lies inside the artificial womb. Jay Greenspan, a pediatrician at Thomas Jefferson University, called the device a "technological miracle" that marks "a huge step to try to do something that we've been trying to do for many years." The device could also help scientists learn more about normal fetal development, says Thomas Shaffer a professor of physiology and pediatrics at Temple University. "I think this is a major breakthrough," Shaffer says. The device in the fetal lamb experiment is kept in a dark, warm room where researchers can play the sounds of the mother's heart for the lamb fetus and monitor the fetus with ultrasounds. Previous research has shown that lamb fetuses are good models for human fetal development. "If you can just use this device as a bridge for the fetus then you can have a dramatic impact on the outcomes of extremely premature infants," Flake says. "This would be a huge deal." But others say the device raises ethical issues, including many questions about whether it would ever be acceptable to test it on humans. "There are all kinds of possibilities for stress and pain with not, at the beginning, a whole lot of likelihood for success," says Dena Davis, a bioethicist at Lehigh University. Alan Flake, a fetal surgeon at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, led the study published in the journal Nature Communications. Flake says ethical concerns need to be balanced against the risk of death and severe disabilities babies often suffer when they are born very prematurely. A normal pregnancy lasts about 40 weeks. A human device would be designed for those born 23 or 24 weeks into pregnancy. Only about half of such babies survive and, of those that do, about 90 percent suffer severe complications, such as cerebral palsy, mental retardation, seizures, paralysis, blindness and deafness, Flake says. About 30,000 babies are born earlier than 26 weeks into pregnancy each year in the United States, according to the researchers. Potential ethical concerns Davis worries that the device is not necessarily a good solution for human fetuses. "If it's a difference between a baby dying rather peacefully and a baby dying under conditions of great stress and discomfort then, no, I don't think it's better," Davis says. "If it's a question of a baby dying versus a baby being born who then needs to live its entire life in an institution, then I don't think that's better. Some parents might think that's better, but many would not," she says. And even if it works, Davis also worries about whether this could blur the line between a fetus and a baby. "Up to now, we've been either born or not born. This would be halfway born, or something like that. Think about that in terms of our abortion politics," she says. Some worry that others could take this technology further. Other scientists are already keeping embryos alive in their labs longer then ever before, and trying to create human sperm, eggs and even embryo-like entities out of stem cells. One group recently created an artificial version of the female reproductive system in the lab. "I could imagine a time, you know sort of [a] 'Brave New World,' where we're growing embryos from the beginning to the end outside of our bodies. It would be a very Gattaca-like world," says Davis, referring to the 1997 science-fiction film. There's also a danger such devices might be used coercively. States could theoretically require women getting abortions to put their fetuses into artificial wombs, says Scott Gelfand, a bioethicist at Oklahoma State University. Employers could also require female employees to use artificial wombs to avoid maternity leave, he says. Insurers could require use of the device to avoid costly complicated pregnancies and deliveries. "The ethical implications are just so far-reaching," Gelfand says. Barbara Katz Rothman, a sociologist at the City University of New York, says more should be done to prevent premature births. She worries about the technological transformation of pregnancy. "The problem is a baby raised in a machine is denied a human connection," Rothman says. "I think that's a scary, tragic thing." Flake says his team has no interest in trying to gestate a fetus any earlier than about 23 weeks into pregnancy. "I want to make this very clear: We have no intention and we've never had any intention with this technology of extending the limits of viability further back," Flake says. "I think when you do that you open a whole new can of worms. Flake doubts anything like that would ever be possible. "That's a pipe dream at this point," Flake says. From kawyle at att.net Wed Oct 6 17:41:21 2021 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 16:41:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Auto-womb In-Reply-To: <1ac800d1-05c1-45f4-0981-12570f9dd3d3@chello.at> References: <4527.1633477514978076556@groups.io> <1ac800d1-05c1-45f4-0981-12570f9dd3d3@chello.at> Message-ID: <484901910.2485185.1633538481494@mail.yahoo.com> I address this issue, among others, in a not-yet-published near-future novel, Donation (which I keep working on and may or may not ever decide deserves publication). Karen A. Wyle On Wednesday, October 6, 2021, 12:36:17 PM EDT, markus baur via Lois-Bujold wrote: -------------------- Scientists Create Artificial Womb That Could Help Prematurely Born Babies April 25, 201711:10 AM ET Heard on All Things Considered Rob Stein, photographed for NPR, 22 January 2020, in Washington DC. ROB STEIN [snip] There's also a danger such devices might be used coercively. States could theoretically require women getting abortions to put their fetuses into artificial wombs, says Scott Gelfand, a bioethicist at Oklahoma State University. Employers could also require female employees to use artificial wombs to avoid maternity leave, he says. Insurers could require use of the device to avoid costly complicated pregnancies and deliveries. is-bujold | | | | Lois-Bujold Info Page | | | From matt.msg at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 20:37:26 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 15:37:26 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sundering isn't a possibility for Tollin, it has occurred - temporarily. He is fed so that he doesn't decay to the point where it becomes irrevocable for both him and the Gods. The spirits in spirit rings must be fed if they're going to do anything, even if that's only to disrupt strikes from other spirits. It seems to be the case that every action expends more of their essence, but it's not clear to me if merely existing slowly uses them up. I suspect that they cannot last indefinitely without consuming other spirits of some sort. Matt G. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 23:55:03 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 17:55:03 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: historical analogue for the meteor in The Calculating Stars by Mary Robinette Kowal In-Reply-To: <16a86476-fbc8-97a5-09af-511aab6b39fd@matija.com> References: <1347331280.635700.1633347611912@webmail.mymagenta.at> <16a86476-fbc8-97a5-09af-511aab6b39fd@matija.com> Message-ID: I read the tweets and had to scratch my head, one tweet said the lack of human remains. Infact starting on page 44 is the section of the Nature Article on human remains showing considerable damage to the skeletons infact most skeletal remains were highly fragmented. Around page 35 of the article is the discussion of melted chrome which melts at temperatures above 2100c (3815.8 Fahrenheit) the article even took lightening into account. After reading the Nature Article, I think a bronze age community being wiped out by a meteor air burst to be pretty plausible. On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 9:45 AM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > Phil Plait, an astronomer (and author of "Death from the Skies"), linked > some interesting comments about that article > > in his tweet: https://twitter.com/BadAstronomer/status/1440432115447783428 > > https://twitter.com/MarkBoslough/status/1440490620854800385 > > https://twitter.com/MarkBoslough/status/1440816755161518082 > > https://twitter.com/SoilManDan/status/1441012233476186114 > > On 04/10/2021 12:40, baur baur via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > actually rare earths are not indicative for meteoric impact > > > > shocked quartz, impact brecciae and other shock modifications are > > > > servus > > > > markus > > > >> Raymond Collins hat am 04.10.2021 01:19 > geschrieben: > >> > >> > >> Fascinating. If true, this would be the first evidence of a town wiped > out > >> by a meteor impact. I wonder if they found evidence of any rare Earth > >> minerals. That would be quite conclusive. That could have been the same > >> century that the Mediterranean island Thera blew its top. > >> > >> On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 11:40 AM wrote: > >> > >>> Archeologists have found a case where they think an exploding meteor > >>> destroyed a city: > >>> > >>> > >>> > https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/sep-25-bronze-age-town-destroyed-by-meteor-global-warming-makes-animals-shapeshift-and-more-1.6187428/ancient-jordanian-town-destroyed-by-a-meteor-blast-may-have-inspired-biblical-stories-scientists-say-1.6187436 > >>> > >>> Quirks & Quarks > >>> Ancient Jordanian town destroyed by a meteor blast may have inspired > >>> Biblical > >>> stories, scientists say > >>> Archaeologists at the site found partially melted ruins and shattered > >>> human > >>> remains > >>> CBC Radio ? Posted: Sep 24, 2021 3:51 PM ET | Last Updated: September > 24 > >>> > >>> A thriving town in the Jordan River valley was utterly annihilated by > the > >>> explosion of a meteor 3,600 years ago, which produced a flash and shock > >>> wave > >>> that scorched and shattered buildings, animals and people. > >>> > >>> That's the scenario painted by a large collaboration of archaeologists, > >>> earth > >>> and space scientists who have been studying the remains of the Bronze > Age > >>> town > >>> at a site called Tall el-Hammam in Jordan, not far from the Dead Sea. > >>> > >>> [...] > >>> "The significance to its past pales in what it foretells for the > future, > >>> because this is going to happen again," he said. The Tunguska event > shows > >>> that the Earth can still be struck by destructive objects from space, > and > >>> if something similar were to happen over a city or populated region, > the > >>> devastation would be enormous. > >>> > >>> "It just took it out in an instant, so that's a serious warning of what > >>> could happen ? what will happen ? in the future." > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Alayne McGregor > >>> alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > >>> > >>> What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We > >>> need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the > >>> institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to > infiltrate > >>> and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich > >>> -- > >>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > >>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > >>> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > >>> > >> -- > >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at > >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 00:09:09 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 18:09:09 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Neil Gaiman question, What movie terrorized you? In-Reply-To: <403d02bb-3986-b3d1-65b8-ce47a9901554@aol.com> References: <403d02bb-3986-b3d1-65b8-ce47a9901554.ref@aol.com> <403d02bb-3986-b3d1-65b8-ce47a9901554@aol.com> Message-ID: The other night I was listening to NPR and a story came about a couple who bought a house in Maryland and found out it belonged to family who's son had been possessed by a demon. They took the kid to St. Louis where he was exorcised. The became the basis for "The Exorcist" the new home owner knew what his Halloween theme would be. Anyway the discussion went to what movie terrorized you? For him it was "Night of the Comet" For me it was, "Planet of the Vampires" in my defense is was ten years old at the time. On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 12:19 PM Pouncer via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > Eric thinks: > > >Kids are actually a lot tougher-minded, at least in > >my experience, than doting parents want to think > >they are. > > https://untitledmx.com/2016/11/12/coraline/ > > > https://thesaltofcarthage.tumblr.com/post/658619975795425280/space-trash-princess-neil-gaiman-feyariel > > Short version: > > Neil Gaiman's literary agent, Merrilee Heifetz, thought _Coraline_ > was too scary for kids. Gaiman suggested that she should read it > to her daughters, aged eight and six. Nine years later, the youngest > daughter confessed to Gaiman that she was TERRIFIED by the > story but refused to tell her mother because she wanted to know what > happened next. And so the book was marketed to parents for > children. > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > https://www.avg.com > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 00:15:04 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 18:15:04 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: According to a bio I read, Isaac Asimov considered Heinlein to be extremely liberal. It think this was just before world war II. On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 4:00 PM Matthew George wrote: > The trouble with Heinlein is that he has a radically different set of norms > than the society in which he lived, which makes freethinkers think he was a > freethinker himself. He wasn't. He was rigidly dogmatic and intolerant of > anything that contradicted his preferences. > > A foretaste of today, in many ways. Curiously, his ideas are today > generally either so totally accepted that they're taken for granted, or > totally rejected. The then-shocking *Stranger in a Strange Land* is fairly > old-fashioned by modern standards, except for the bits no one would take > seriously today. > > Matt G. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 00:24:03 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 18:24:03 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4.ref@aol.com> <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4@aol.com> Message-ID: Steven Brust has a weapon in his "Dragaera series" novels that ate people's souls called a Morganti blade. Supposedly according to one of his books there was some sort of soul eating demon residing in the blade. On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 4:04 PM Matthew George wrote: > If the spirit trapped in a weapon can draw energy out of the people it > wounds, perhaps that would make it something like a D&D-esque "magic > weapon". Kind of abominable, though. And without proper maintenance, > lethal to the trapped spirit. > > Seems like the sort of thing that would attract the negative attention of > the Gods. > > Matt G. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From domelouann at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 00:49:04 2021 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 18:49:04 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 6:15 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > According to a bio I read, Isaac Asimov considered Heinlein to be > extremely liberal. It think this was just before world war II. > I think Asimov also said that when Heinlein had a liberal wife he was liberal, and later when he had a conservative wife he got much more conservative. From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Thu Oct 7 01:00:50 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 20:00:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: Neil Gaiman question, What movie terrorized you? In-Reply-To: References: <403d02bb-3986-b3d1-65b8-ce47a9901554.ref@aol.com> <403d02bb-3986-b3d1-65b8-ce47a9901554@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Oct 2021, Raymond Collins wrote: > The other night I was listening to NPR and a story came about a couple who > bought a house in Maryland and found out it belonged to family who's son > had been possessed by a demon. They took the kid to St. Louis where he was > exorcised. The became the basis for "The Exorcist" the new home owner knew > what his Halloween theme would be. I heard an interview with the homeowner on "As It Happens" on CBC: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-the-tuesday-edition-1.6200205/a-couple-bought-their-dream-home-then-they-learned-it-was-the-exorcist-house-1.6200208 > Anyway the discussion went to what movie terrorized you? For him it was > "Night of the Comet" > For me it was, "Planet of the Vampires" in my defense is was ten years old > at the time. For me it was _When the Wind Blows_ and _If You Love This Planet_. For my husband, it was _Doctor Strangelove_. You may detect a theme. -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From phoenix at mindstalk.net Thu Oct 7 01:25:03 2021 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 20:25:03 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: historical analogue for the meteor in The Calculating Stars by Mary Robinette Kowal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 03, 2021 at 12:40:03PM -0400, alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: > Archeologists have found a case where they think an exploding meteor > destroyed a city: > > https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/sep-25-bronze-age-town-destroyed-by-meteor-global-warming-makes-animals-shapeshift-and-more-1.6187428/ancient-jordanian-town-destroyed-by-a-meteor-blast-may-have-inspired-biblical-stories-scientists-say-1.6187436 Strong backlash to that: https://retractionwatch.com/2021/10/01/criticism-engulfs-paper-claiming-an-asteroid-destroyed-biblical-sodom-and-gomorrah/ From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 01:38:42 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:38:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4.ref@aol.com> <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4@aol.com> Message-ID: Not to mention Stormbringer and the other demon swords of its ilk in the Elric of Melnibone series. On Wed, Oct 6, 2021, 6:24 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > Steven Brust has a weapon in his "Dragaera series" novels that ate > people's souls called a Morganti blade. Supposedly according to one of his > books there was some sort of soul eating demon residing in the blade. > > On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 4:04 PM Matthew George wrote: > > > If the spirit trapped in a weapon can draw energy out of the people it > > wounds, perhaps that would make it something like a D&D-esque "magic > > weapon". Kind of abominable, though. And without proper maintenance, > > lethal to the trapped spirit. > > > > Seems like the sort of thing that would attract the negative attention of > > the Gods. > > > > Matt G. > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From lbujold at myinfmail.com Thu Oct 7 01:56:51 2021 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 19:56:51 -0500 Subject: [LMB] The Spirit Ring sources Message-ID: <824bd18e-2131-8aaa-d506-edbd4345c453@myinfmail.com> So, some posts I've lost sight of upstream were debating how Renaissance folks actually thought about magic. This contemporary quote (from /Europe 1492/ by Franco Cardini (1989)): "I remember it was the fifth of April MCCCCLXXXXII," the Florentine chronicler Bartolomeo Masi recalled, "around the third hour of the night, when a darkness of weather came, water and wind, and six thunderbolts fell together; and they struck the lantern in the cupola of Santa Maria del Fiore [in Florence], which ruined many statues in the church and outside...? When this dark weather came, it was said that it was Lorenzo di Piero de' Medici who had let loose a spirit that he was said to have kept mounted in a ring, and it was at that point that this event happened.? And it was said that he had kept that spirit in that ring for many years; and because he was very sick at the time, he had freed it." "Spirit" being an undefined term, here, although one is put in mind of Shakespeare's Prospero. Ta, L. (Wonderful book, btw, lavishly illustrated.) From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 02:50:23 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 21:50:23 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Neil Gaiman question, from fan In-Reply-To: References: <403d02bb-3986-b3d1-65b8-ce47a9901554.ref@aol.com> <403d02bb-3986-b3d1-65b8-ce47a9901554@aol.com> Message-ID: So, Neil Gaiman is a really cool dude. How cool, I hear you ask? This cool. https://neil-gaiman.tumblr.com/post/153485060751/my-english-teacher-says-we-shouldnt-refer-to From lmb at matija.com Thu Oct 7 08:05:50 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:05:50 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 07/10/2021 00:15, Raymond Collins wrote: > According to a bio I read, Isaac Asimov considered Heinlein to be > extremely liberal. It think this was just before world war II. Heinlein changed his politics after WW2: According to a bio I read, he read a book which claimed that FDR allowed Hawaii to be hit in order to get the US into the war, and he flipped his support to republicans. Read about Heinlein/Anderson vs Asimov et al on the Vietnam war. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 08:12:11 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 02:12:11 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Before about the 1950s, Heinlein was a big backer of One World Government. See *Space Cadet* and some of his other works from that period. What changed his mind, AIUI, was a round-the-world tour he took (see *Tramp Royale*). Seeing how different other countries were cured him of that notion. On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 2:06 AM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On 07/10/2021 00:15, Raymond Collins wrote: > > According to a bio I read, Isaac Asimov considered Heinlein to be > > extremely liberal. It think this was just before world war II. > Heinlein changed his politics after WW2: According to a bio I read, he > read a book which claimed that FDR allowed Hawaii to be hit in order to > get the US into the war, and he flipped his support to republicans. Read > about Heinlein/Anderson vs Asimov et al on the Vietnam war. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 12:35:10 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 06:35:10 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: historical analogue for the meteor in The Calculating Stars by Mary Robinette Kowal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am familiar with Nature Magazine. It has a peer reviewed process before it publishes an article. Retraction watch.com on the other hand doesn't seem to have any form of peer review. Just some variation of a Twitter format for any Tom, Dick, or Professor Harry to cast aspersions on the scientific validity on the article of what actually happened at the the site of Tell el-Hamman. Some 3600 years ago. The fact of the matter is research went into establishing what happened that day. Bio-chemical research, physics, chemistry etc. By someone saying "the pictures have been altered doesn't convince me otherwise. I need Real scientific Proof not just some Trumpian generated BS to convince me otherwise. I sorta think Tell el-Hamman maybe got wiped out by a space rock. But I need real proof and not bullshit to convince me otherwise. Sorry about the diatribe. I promise to behave better. ? On Wed, Oct 6, 2021, 7:25 PM Damien Sullivan wrote: > On Sun, Oct 03, 2021 at 12:40:03PM -0400, alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > wrote: > > Archeologists have found a case where they think an exploding meteor > > destroyed a city: > > > > > https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/sep-25-bronze-age-town-destroyed-by-meteor-global-warming-makes-animals-shapeshift-and-more-1.6187428/ancient-jordanian-town-destroyed-by-a-meteor-blast-may-have-inspired-biblical-stories-scientists-say-1.6187436 > > Strong backlash to that: > > https://retractionwatch.com/2021/10/01/criticism-engulfs-paper-claiming-an-asteroid-destroyed-biblical-sodom-and-gomorrah/ > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 12:38:07 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 06:38:07 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4.ref@aol.com> <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4@aol.com> Message-ID: Now Stormbringer is one scary ass sword. If I remember, it finally killed Elric in the end. On Wed, Oct 6, 2021, 7:39 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > Not to mention Stormbringer and the other demon swords of its ilk in the > Elric of Melnibone series. > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021, 6:24 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > > > Steven Brust has a weapon in his "Dragaera series" novels that ate > > people's souls called a Morganti blade. Supposedly according to one of > his > > books there was some sort of soul eating demon residing in the blade. > > > > On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 4:04 PM Matthew George wrote: > > > > > If the spirit trapped in a weapon can draw energy out of the people it > > > wounds, perhaps that would make it something like a D&D-esque "magic > > > weapon". Kind of abominable, though. And without proper maintenance, > > > lethal to the trapped spirit. > > > > > > Seems like the sort of thing that would attract the negative attention > of > > > the Gods. > > > > > > Matt G. > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From lmb at matija.com Thu Oct 7 12:50:58 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 12:50:58 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: historical analogue for the meteor in The Calculating Stars by Mary Robinette Kowal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 07/10/2021 12:35, Raymond Collins wrote: > I am familiar with Nature Magazine. It has a peer reviewed process before > it publishes an article. A quibble: This was published in "Nature Scientific Reports" not in Nature magazine. However the "about Scientific Reports" page promises that "Scientific Reports is led by the same ethical and editorial policy guidelines as other Nature Research journals" From dbernat at gol.com Thu Oct 7 13:29:34 2021 From: dbernat at gol.com (dbernat) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 21:29:34 +0900 Subject: [LMB] OT: historical analogue for the meteor in The Calculating Stars by Mary Robinette Kowal In-Reply-To: References: <1347331280.635700.1633347611912@webmail.mymagenta.at> <16a86476-fbc8-97a5-09af-511aab6b39fd@matija.com> Message-ID: <2a29c229a6a46ea69f192d0380b00802@gol.com> Raymond Collins wrote: > I read the tweets and had to scratch my head, one tweet said the lack > of > human remains. Infact starting on page 44 is the section of the Nature > Article on human remains showing considerable damage to the skeletons > infact most skeletal remains were highly fragmented. Around page 35 of > the > article is the discussion of melted chrome which melts at temperatures > above 2100c (3815.8 Fahrenheit) the article even took lightening into > account. > After reading the Nature Article, I think a bronze age community being > wiped out by a meteor air burst to be pretty plausible. The Sirente Crater in Italy may also have been the result of a meteor air burst. From howard at brazee.net Thu Oct 7 13:34:00 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 06:34:00 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0C669C72-DF9A-4789-9229-A56FD0CACEFA@brazee.net> > On Oct 7, 2021, at 1:12 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > Before about the 1950s, Heinlein was a big backer of One World Government. > See *Space Cadet* and some of his other works from that period. What > changed his mind, AIUI, was a round-the-world tour he took (see *Tramp > Royale*). Seeing how different other countries were cured him of that > notion. Quite a bit of science fiction really assumed that the current American culture would be the culture of the future. From alzurite at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 15:11:09 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 10:11:09 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein and Bujold Message-ID: Howard Brazee said: > Quite a bit of science fiction really assumed that the current American culture would be the > culture of the future. Presumably that was American writers writing for American audiences. How else would they do it? People write about what they know, aiming it at the audience they expect. Cf. the future culture of Beta Colony, Jackson's Whole, and many if not most of the planets mentioned in the Bujold novels - with notable exceptions like Barrayar (European/British/Russian/French) and Escobar (Spanish). namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Oct 7 15:23:11 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 15:23:11 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: <2B759BE6-5FA6-456B-A643-162988878DE3@brazee.net> References: <2B759BE6-5FA6-456B-A643-162988878DE3@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Oct 2021 19:48:09 -0600, brazee wrote: > > >> On Oct 3, 2021, at 7:28 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: >> >> One problem with both Harry Potter and the Anita Blake books, IMO, is >> poorly-thought-out world-building. >> >> To be fair to her, Rowling never expected her books to become such an >> enormous success, and since she was (originally at least) mainly writing >> for children and teens, she didn't think things through as thoroughly as >> she might have. And I don't think Hamilton expected the Anita Blake books >> to go on for anything like as long as they have. Even so, though, I can >> pick holes in both series' backgrounds all day long. > >True. And it?s a much, much darker world than I want kids to read about. I thought it was quite clever the way the books sort of grew up with the readers. But the books were very formulaic, with a lot of repeated phrases? and overused words?, and - mirabile dictu! - I actually prefer the films! > >But she couldn?t even build a rational sport. And Hermione is *so* a Ravenclaw. Have you read "Harry Potter and the Tools of Rationality" on fanfic? ?"Harry, Ron and Hermione". Over and over and over. ?"Zoomed" - I swear half the annual print usage of that word is in the HP books. The repetition is even more grating in the audiobooks, which the offspring consumed endlessly in the car. -- If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed. - Mark Twain From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 15:27:15 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 09:27:15 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4.ref@aol.com> <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4@aol.com> Message-ID: It did. What's really scary is that Stormbringer was not unique. It had its "brother" sword, Mournblade, and in one story Elric, using his latest Bat-Power that Moorcock had given him without any advance notice to the readers, summoned a whole bunch of other runeblades to take care of business. On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 6:38 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > Now Stormbringer is one scary ass sword. If I remember, it finally killed > Elric in the end. > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021, 7:39 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > > > Not to mention Stormbringer and the other demon swords of its ilk in the > > Elric of Melnibone series. > > > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021, 6:24 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > > > > > Steven Brust has a weapon in his "Dragaera series" novels that ate > > > people's souls called a Morganti blade. Supposedly according to one of > > his > > > books there was some sort of soul eating demon residing in the blade. > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 4:04 PM Matthew George > wrote: > > > > > > > If the spirit trapped in a weapon can draw energy out of the people > it > > > > wounds, perhaps that would make it something like a D&D-esque "magic > > > > weapon". Kind of abominable, though. And without proper > maintenance, > > > > lethal to the trapped spirit. > > > > > > > > Seems like the sort of thing that would attract the negative > attention > > of > > > > the Gods. > > > > > > > > Matt G. > > > > -- > > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Oct 7 15:34:48 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 15:34:48 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: gender roles. In-Reply-To: References: <1ecklghb1c93lukjn3ch61avlsigr4os0q@4ax.com> Message-ID: <991ulghmm9cu2aafrq2g5crh4bhsv5ltuo@4ax.com> On Sun, 03 Oct 2021 22:57:31 +0000, "Harvey Fishman" wrote: > > >------ Original Message ------ >From: "Marc Wilson" >To: "LMB" >Bcc: fishman at panix.com >Sent: 10/3/2021 6:43:11 PM >Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: gender roles. > >>Mine tonight had Gorgonzola, proscuito, walnuts, and fig jam. Delish. >> >Gorgonzola was the only cheese on that pizza? Strange!! > France. What can you do? :) There was the usual tomato and mozzarella base, yes. But garnished with all the above. All the pizzas were a bit out there, ingredient-wise. -- If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed. - Mark Twain From howard at brazee.net Thu Oct 7 15:35:30 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:35:30 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein and Bujold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 7, 2021, at 8:11 AM, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > >> Quite a bit of science fiction really assumed that the current American > culture would be the >> culture of the future. > > Presumably that was American writers writing for American audiences. How > else would they do it? People write about what they know, aiming it at the > audience they expect. And they didn?t even recognize that American culture was more diverse. We have to do that to some degree, especially with far future science fiction. Even historical fiction sells better with protagonists the readers can relate to. But science fiction used to be pretty extreme in its adherence to an image of an American culture. I?ve been re-reading some of the more successful SF of a half-century ago, and noticing what I didn?t catch the first time around. > > Cf. the future culture of Beta Colony, Jackson's Whole, and many if not > most of the planets mentioned in the Bujold novels - with notable > exceptions like Barrayar (European/British/Russian/French) and Escobar > (Spanish). Which is one reason we love her writing. Science Fiction has grown and changed with the best authors leading the way. From howard at brazee.net Thu Oct 7 15:43:27 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 08:43:27 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4.ref@aol.com> <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4@aol.com> Message-ID: <1E67CE9B-BBFD-4C14-A9CC-123FBC0560C1@brazee.net> > On Oct 7, 2021, at 8:27 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > What's really scary is that Stormbringer was not unique. It had its > "brother" sword, Mournblade, and in one story Elric, using his latest > Bat-Power that Moorcock had given him without any advance notice to the > readers, summoned a whole bunch of other runeblades to take care of > business. The tradition of magic swords is huge. One fun one is Lawrence Watt-Evan?s Misenchanted sword which would always kill, but at some random time would kill its wielder. There are examples of clay sling stones with curses stamped on them. I always thought that would be a useful fantasy tool. I suspect magic lamps started from one story, as they don?t make much sense. Rings, though are jewelry worn by the rich and powerful. And they often have gems. I found Moorcock?s end-of-time ?magic? rings interesting. What other devices have had souls/spirits embedded in them? From tzbarasc at lasierra.edu Thu Oct 7 15:46:54 2021 From: tzbarasc at lasierra.edu (Tony Zbaraschuk) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 09:46:54 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: <1E67CE9B-BBFD-4C14-A9CC-123FBC0560C1@brazee.net> References: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4.ref@aol.com> <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4@aol.com> <1E67CE9B-BBFD-4C14-A9CC-123FBC0560C1@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 9:43 AM brazee wrote: > I suspect magic lamps started from one story, as they don?t make much > sense. > 1001 Nights; the story of Aladdin. Anyone know of an earlier source for this? What other devices have had souls/spirits embedded in them? > The Rivers of London books have a couple of stories with souls captured in jars. Probably not the only such versions. Tony Zbaraschuk -- Tony Zbaraschuk Bookworm, talker, learner Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" From alzurite at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 16:00:07 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 11:00:07 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Rowling Message-ID: Marc Wilson said: > And Hermione is *so* a Ravenclaw. How so? Was Ravenclaw the smart group? namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From lmb at matija.com Thu Oct 7 16:08:19 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 16:08:19 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein and Bujold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56f92b80-a653-9af2-6ba7-fdd69b01a27e@matija.com> On 07/10/2021 15:35, brazee wrote: > But science fiction used to be pretty extreme in its adherence to an image of an American culture. I?ve been re-reading some of the more successful SF of a half-century ago, and noticing what I didn?t catch the first time around. Once, when I was ... probably around 10, I got my hands on a translation of a Russian SF book. I don't remember much, other than it involved a crash on a high gravity planet, one of the protagonists was called "Wind Gift" and the society "back home" was glorious communism. I do remember it bored me to tears and turned me off all Eastern-European SF writers (other than Stanislaw Lem). I wonder what I would think of it if I read it now... Lem, of course, was in a lot of his books completely society-independent. (Books like "Star diaries of Ion Tichy", "Invincible" and "Tales of Pirx the pilot"). From alzurite at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 16:14:10 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 11:14:10 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 - magic devices Message-ID: Howard Brazee said: > I suspect magic lamps started from one story, as they don?t make much sense. Do you mean like Aladdin and the genie? Why do you say they don't make sense? Compared to, say, rings with spirits in them? > Rings, though are jewelry worn by the rich and powerful. And they often have gems. And they have a long history, ring-giving and ring-bearing being a big deal in the early middle ages. > What other devices have had souls/spirits embedded in them? There's Sam Vimes' pocket-disorganzer with its trying-to-be-helpful but quirky interior imp. This also makes me think of Hamlet's line, "I could be bounded in a nutshell and think myself king of infinite space." namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Thu Oct 7 16:28:59 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 11:28:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Heinlein and Bujold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Like the radio piece we listened to at breakfast today, about all the Korean words that have recently been added to the Oxford English Dictionary. I commented that when William Gibson started writing in the 80s, we envisioned more Japanese cultural references coming into American culture - which happened, but even more with Korean. And Vietnamese, for that matter, too. I remember reading recently an interview with Gibson where he mentioned that some of his earlier boks are in fact set right about now. Odd feeling that, outliving your future SF. obBujold: Beta Colony may be somewhat American, but without its attitudes re sex and re religion. Alayne > Howard Brazee said: >> Quite a bit of science fiction really assumed that the current American > culture would be the >> culture of the future. On Thu, 7 Oct 2021, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Presumably that was American writers writing for American audiences. How > else would they do it? People write about what they know, aiming it at the > audience they expect. > > Cf. the future culture of Beta Colony, Jackson's Whole, and many if not > most of the planets mentioned in the Bujold novels - with notable > exceptions like Barrayar (European/British/Russian/French) and Escobar > (Spanish). -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From howard at brazee.net Thu Oct 7 16:31:57 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 09:31:57 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 - magic devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9987C1FD-8195-47F0-8BB8-F7A053094B60@brazee.net> > On Oct 7, 2021, at 9:14 AM, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > >> I suspect magic lamps started from one story, as they don?t make much > sense. > > Do you mean like Aladdin and the genie? Why do you say they don't make > sense? Compared to, say, rings with spirits in them? There is nothing special about an appliance, especially one that can be lost or stolen. Jewelry is worn. From alzurite at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 16:54:26 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 11:54:26 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Elizabeth's Bujold Trivia Quiz #1 Message-ID: Randomly selected. The quote is: " Deliver success or pay with your ass ." Can you name: (1) The book (2) The name of the person speaking (3) The name of person spoken to Bonus points if you can give context. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From dbernat at gol.com Thu Oct 7 16:57:59 2021 From: dbernat at gol.com (dbernat) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 00:57:59 +0900 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: <0C669C72-DF9A-4789-9229-A56FD0CACEFA@brazee.net> References: <0C669C72-DF9A-4789-9229-A56FD0CACEFA@brazee.net> Message-ID: brazee wrote: > Quite a bit of science fiction really assumed that the current > American culture would be the culture of the future. How many writers had the familiarity with a non-US culture necessary to write a believable story set outside the United States? From howard at brazee.net Thu Oct 7 16:59:21 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 09:59:21 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Elizabeth's Bujold Trivia Quiz #1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <919DD68C-7C14-4004-BB8E-457F4427729F@brazee.net> Cetaganda, Miles, ???? I don?t remember. > On Oct 7, 2021, at 9:54 AM, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > > Randomly selected. > > The quote is: " Deliver success or pay with your ass ." > > Can you name: > (1) The book > (2) The name of the person speaking > (3) The name of person spoken to > > Bonus points if you can give context. > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to howard at brazee.net > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From alzurite at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 17:11:32 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 12:11:32 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein Message-ID: Howard Brazee wrote: brazee wrote: > Quite a bit of science fiction really assumed that the current > American culture would be the culture of the future. dbernat asked: > How many writers had the familiarity with a non-US culture necessary to > write a believable story set outside the United States? Any writer who is not American. Or any writer who is an immigrant or aboriginal. Or writers who have studied other cultures, or who have lived outside the U.S. for long enough to observe and understand another culture. Or writers who are dealing with different subcultures within the U.S. This is not necessarily a goal for American SF writers to pursue, but if it's chosen as a goal, it's not particularly inaccessible. This got me thinking about British and Canadian SF, and reflecting that I can't think of any SF from Australia or New Zealand. Can anyone point me to NZ/Australian SF authors? I can think of NZ fantasy authors I've read (Elizabeth Knox being a favourite), but SF? namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From focsle1928 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 7 17:39:28 2021 From: focsle1928 at yahoo.com (Jane Hotchkiss) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 16:39:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1191586079.192842.1633624768251@mail.yahoo.com> > Anyway the discussion went to what movie terrorized you? For me, Fantasia - the Night on Bald Mountain sequence. I was only 8 at the time. Jane Hotchkiss From tlambs1138 at charter.net Thu Oct 7 17:51:11 2021 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 09:51:11 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein Message-ID: <023501d7bb9b$894e8b30$9beba190$@charter.net> Australian--George Turner, DROWNING TOWERS. I don't know how accessible it is; my dad had a copy and I read it, but it's with his collection and it would take me a while to dig through it to find any particular book. Jean Lamb tlambs1138 at charter.net https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20 From lbujold at myinfmail.com Thu Oct 7 17:53:24 2021 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 11:53:24 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cordwainer Smith was Heinlein Message-ID: <71ecd97e-0578-b846-f110-8138dc711e16@myinfmail.com> [LMB] Heinlein Elizabeth Holden alzurite at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 17:11:32 BST 2021 EH:? This got me thinking about British and Canadian SF, and reflecting that I can't think of any SF from Australia or New Zealand. Can anyone point me to NZ/Australian SF authors? I can think of NZ fantasy authors I've read (Elizabeth Knox being a favourite), but SF? LMB:? I was about to say Cordwainer Smith, whom I dimly thought was Australian, but looking him up I see he's American. Still a wonderful writer, and he does qualify as "lived outside the States."? He's been reprinted enough times, his stuff should be accessible Real name Paul Linebarger.? His bio is pretty amazing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordwainer_Smith L. From dmb0317 at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 17:54:48 2021 From: dmb0317 at gmail.com (David Bowen) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 09:54:48 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 9:11 AM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > > This got me thinking about British and Canadian SF, and reflecting that I > can't think of any SF from Australia or New Zealand. Can anyone point me to > NZ/Australian SF authors? I can think of NZ fantasy authors I've read > (Elizabeth Knox being a favourite), but SF? > Wikipedia has a list of Australian SF writers. The two names I recognized were John Birmingham and Sean McMullen. David Bowen From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Thu Oct 7 18:05:56 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 13:05:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2021, David Bowen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 9:11 AM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > >> >> This got me thinking about British and Canadian SF, and reflecting that I >> can't think of any SF from Australia or New Zealand. Can anyone point me to >> NZ/Australian SF authors? I can think of NZ fantasy authors I've read >> (Elizabeth Knox being a favourite), but SF? >> > > Wikipedia has a list of Australian SF writers. The two names I recognized > were John Birmingham and Sean McMullen. Another australian author, more on the fantasy side although he has written SF: Garth Nix. I recently listened to the audiobook of his _Newt's Emerald_ and enjoyed it thoroughly. Fantasy regency with a heroine who played with her cousins and is very good with ships and knots and keeps rescuing herself before the hero can get to her. Wittily written. http://www.garthnix.com/about/ Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From margdean56 at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 18:41:36 2021 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 11:41:36 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Rowling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 9:00 AM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Marc Wilson said: > > > And Hermione is *so* a Ravenclaw. > > How so? Was Ravenclaw the smart group? > Basically, yes. They were the House that *valued* intelligence above other attributes. Why they went with the eagle as their symbol rather than the (genuinely intelligent) raven like in their name has always puzzled me. --Margaret Dean From baur at chello.at Thu Oct 7 19:14:33 2021 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 20:14:33 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: <1191586079.192842.1633624768251@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1191586079.192842.1633624768251@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <33ce33b8-019f-4eb2-692c-45a8164b41e2@chello.at> Am 07.10.2021 um 18:39 schrieb Jane Hotchkiss via Lois-Bujold: > > Anyway the discussion went to what movie terrorized you? > > For me, Fantasia - the Night on Bald Mountain sequence. I was only 8 at the time. the old "the mumjmy" with boris karloff servus markus > Jane Hotchkiss > > > From lmb at matija.com Thu Oct 7 19:15:56 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 19:15:56 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: <33ce33b8-019f-4eb2-692c-45a8164b41e2@chello.at> References: <1191586079.192842.1633624768251@mail.yahoo.com> <33ce33b8-019f-4eb2-692c-45a8164b41e2@chello.at> Message-ID: On 07/10/2021 19:14, Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > > Am 07.10.2021 um 18:39 schrieb Jane Hotchkiss via Lois-Bujold: >> ? > Anyway the discussion went to what movie terrorized you? >> >> For me, Fantasia - the Night on Bald Mountain sequence. I was only 8 >> at the time. > > the old "the mumjmy" with boris karloff The aliens in "UFO" (the series), I was 8. From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Thu Oct 7 19:42:12 2021 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 18:42:12 +0000 Subject: [LMB] ot: Australian sff authors Message-ID: Right off, all I'm thinking of is Tansy Rayner Roberts, Patricia Wrightson, & Kerry Greenwood, but they may be more fantasy.? From NZ, don't forget Margaret Mahy. ? Truth be told, I'm more familiar with mystery writers.? Of course, there's TJ Nichols' "Captured Earth" series, which seems to be sf.? He usually writes more mm paranormal romance. ? Hth, ? Jerrie From fishman at panix.com Thu Oct 7 20:01:52 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 19:01:52 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <1191586079.192842.1633624768251@mail.yahoo.com> <33ce33b8-019f-4eb2-692c-45a8164b41e2@chello.at> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold" To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Cc: "Matija Grabnar" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 10/7/2021 2:15:56 PM Subject: Re: [LMB] Heinlein >On 07/10/2021 19:14, Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold wrote: >> >> >>Am 07.10.2021 um 18:39 schrieb Jane Hotchkiss via Lois-Bujold: >>> > Anyway the discussion went to what movie terrorized you? >>> >>>For me, Fantasia - the Night on Bald Mountain sequence. I was only 8 at the time. >> >>the old "the mumjmy" with boris karloff >The aliens in "UFO" (the series), I was 8. I remember being terrified by a film (whose name I do not remember) about the life of Mozart circa 1943. The idea of his death destroyed me and my mother had to take me from the theater because I was screaming. I was five years old or so. Harvey From mark at allums.email Thu Oct 7 20:12:43 2021 From: mark at allums.email (Mark Allums) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 14:12:43 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <1191586079.192842.1633624768251@mail.yahoo.com> <33ce33b8-019f-4eb2-692c-45a8164b41e2@chello.at> Message-ID: <5b9b5b38-226f-aa9d-57a4-425a63e12e64@allums.email> On 10/7/2021 2:01 PM, Harvey Fishman wrote: > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold" > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Cc: "Matija Grabnar" > Bcc: fishman at panix.com > Sent: 10/7/2021 2:15:56 PM > Subject: Re: [LMB] Heinlein > >> On 07/10/2021 19:14, Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold wrote: >>> >>> >>> Am 07.10.2021 um 18:39 schrieb Jane Hotchkiss via Lois-Bujold: >>>> ? > Anyway the discussion went to what movie terrorized you? >>>> >>>> For me, Fantasia - the Night on Bald Mountain sequence. I was only 8 >>>> at the time. >>> >>> the old "the mumjmy" with boris karloff >> The aliens in "UFO" (the series), I was 8. > I remember being terrified by a film (whose name I do not remember) > about the life of Mozart circa 1943. The idea of his death destroyed me > and my mother had to take me from the theater because I was screaming. I > was five years old or so. > I used to be scared of the yip-yip monsters of Sesame Street. (They would try to eat people, IIRC). Mark A. From fishman at panix.com Thu Oct 7 20:18:18 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 19:18:18 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <1191586079.192842.1633624768251@mail.yahoo.com> <33ce33b8-019f-4eb2-692c-45a8164b41e2@chello.at> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Harvey Fishman" To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 10/7/2021 3:01:52 PM Subject: Re: [LMB] Heinlein > > >------ Original Message ------ >From: "Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold" >To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >Cc: "Matija Grabnar" >Bcc: fishman at panix.com >Sent: 10/7/2021 2:15:56 PM >Subject: Re: [LMB] Heinlein > >>On 07/10/2021 19:14, Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold wrote: >>> >>> >>>Am 07.10.2021 um 18:39 schrieb Jane Hotchkiss via Lois-Bujold: >>>> > Anyway the discussion went to what movie terrorized you? >>>> >>>>For me, Fantasia - the Night on Bald Mountain sequence. I was only 8 at the time. >>> >>>the old "the mumjmy" with boris karloff >>The aliens in "UFO" (the series), I was 8. >I remember being terrified by a film (whose name I do not remember) about the life of Mozart circa 1943. The idea of his death destroyed me and my mother had to take me from the theater because I was screaming. I was five years old or so. > >Harvey Ooops! The film was _A Song to Remember_, it was about Frederic Chopin, and the year was 1945. And I was seven years old, and SCREAMING. Harvey From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Oct 7 20:19:40 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 20:19:40 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Rowling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <31iulgpq7ou416kefarq9f12kag627p382@4ax.com> On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 11:00:07 -0400, Elizabeth Holden wrote: >Marc Wilson said: > >> And Hermione is *so* a Ravenclaw. > >How so? Was Ravenclaw the smart group? In the sense of the academic group, yes: pursuit of knowledge for its own sake. -- Listen, every elite has a way of justifying itself. I don?t think any elite ever said, just listen, we?re stronger, so we took what we wanted. There?s always some ideology that rationalizes it. - William Deresiewicz From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Oct 7 20:21:22 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 20:21:22 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Cordwainer Smith was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <71ecd97e-0578-b846-f110-8138dc711e16@myinfmail.com> References: <71ecd97e-0578-b846-f110-8138dc711e16@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: <83iulghpc6r99650atg0r4q0om6qv4vggq@4ax.com> On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 11:53:24 -0500, Lois Bujold wrote: > >LMB:? I was about to say Cordwainer Smith, whom I dimly thought was >Australian, but looking him up I see he's American. Still a wonderful >writer, and he does qualify as "lived outside the States."? He's been >reprinted enough times, his stuff should be accessible Diverted by the "Norstrilia" thing, and the stuff about the Queen? In writing style, he was a very unAmerican American. -- Listen, every elite has a way of justifying itself. I don?t think any elite ever said, just listen, we?re stronger, so we took what we wanted. There?s always some ideology that rationalizes it. - William Deresiewicz From howard at brazee.net Thu Oct 7 20:25:55 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 13:25:55 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Cordwainer Smith was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <83iulghpc6r99650atg0r4q0om6qv4vggq@4ax.com> References: <71ecd97e-0578-b846-f110-8138dc711e16@myinfmail.com> <83iulghpc6r99650atg0r4q0om6qv4vggq@4ax.com> Message-ID: <699786C2-14F8-470E-BBE2-FA95B273A725@brazee.net> > On Oct 7, 2021, at 1:21 PM, Marc Wilson wrote: > >> LMB: I was about to say Cordwainer Smith, whom I dimly thought was >> Australian, but looking him up I see he's American. Still a wonderful >> writer, and he does qualify as "lived outside the States." He's been >> reprinted enough times, his stuff should be accessible > > Diverted by the "Norstrilia" thing, and the stuff about the Queen? In > writing style, he was a very unAmerican American. One of the very few exceptions to my observation about most SF of my youth being so very much US values. From kathleen.morrison at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 21:02:56 2021 From: kathleen.morrison at gmail.com (Kathleen Morrison) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 16:02:56 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cordwainer Smith was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <699786C2-14F8-470E-BBE2-FA95B273A725@brazee.net> References: <71ecd97e-0578-b846-f110-8138dc711e16@myinfmail.com> <83iulghpc6r99650atg0r4q0om6qv4vggq@4ax.com> <699786C2-14F8-470E-BBE2-FA95B273A725@brazee.net> Message-ID: Well, there's always Bertram Chandler. He was a ship's captain between New Zealand and Australia. Kathleen(laptop) On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 3:26 PM brazee wrote: > > > > On Oct 7, 2021, at 1:21 PM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > > >> LMB: I was about to say Cordwainer Smith, whom I dimly thought was > >> Australian, but looking him up I see he's American. Still a wonderful > >> writer, and he does qualify as "lived outside the States." He's been > >> reprinted enough times, his stuff should be accessible > > > > Diverted by the "Norstrilia" thing, and the stuff about the Queen? In > > writing style, he was a very unAmerican American. > > One of the very few exceptions to my observation about most SF of my youth > being so very much US values. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kathleen.morrison at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Thu Oct 7 21:14:26 2021 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 20:14:26 +0000 Subject: [LMB] ot: scary movies Message-ID: <46c5b6db-6c4a-5eac-9574-98845398cad9@mindspring.com> A movie that terrified me as a child was "The Naked Jungle" with Charlton Heston, Eleanor Parker, and William Conrad.? An advancing army of ants eats everything--and everyone.?? ? Jerrie From jpolowin at hotmail.com Thu Oct 7 22:50:28 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 21:50:28 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein and Bujold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Matija Grabnar wrote: > Once, when I was ... probably around 10, I got my hands on a translation > of a Russian SF book. > > I don't remember much, other than it involved a crash on a high gravity > planet, one of the protagonists was called "Wind Gift" and the society > "back home" was glorious communism. I do remember it bored me to tears > and turned me off all Eastern-European SF writers (other than Stanislaw > Lem). I have a couple of anthologies edited by Asimov: _Soviet Science Fiction_ and _More Soviet Science Fiction_. They're stories translated from Russian. I gave up partway into the second one; I found them *very* slow going. They were generally all about the triumph of communism and its spread outward from Earth, and (to me) didn't seem to be very well written. Part of that may have been from the translation. But I found myself wondering if the books had been intended to be propaganda-ish: "look at how bad the Russians are at writing SF!" Joel From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 22:52:37 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 16:52:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4.ref@aol.com> <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4@aol.com> <1E67CE9B-BBFD-4C14-A9CC-123FBC0560C1@brazee.net> Message-ID: I inherited a ancient Coptic lamp that looks it could hold a genie. I used to rub it but alas, no genie came out with three wishes. On Thu, Oct 7, 2021, 9:47 AM Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 9:43 AM brazee wrote: > > > I suspect magic lamps started from one story, as they don?t make much > > sense. > > > > 1001 Nights; the story of Aladdin. Anyone know of an earlier source for > this? > > What other devices have had souls/spirits embedded in them? > > > > The Rivers of London books have a couple of stories with souls captured in > jars. Probably not the only such versions. > > > Tony Zbaraschuk > > -- > Tony Zbaraschuk > Bookworm, talker, learner > Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 22:56:00 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 16:56:00 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4.ref@aol.com> <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4@aol.com> <1E67CE9B-BBFD-4C14-A9CC-123FBC0560C1@brazee.net> Message-ID: I just finished reading "The Furthest Station" the book about the ghosts in jars. It's a good read. On Thu, Oct 7, 2021, 4:52 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > I inherited a ancient Coptic lamp that looks it could hold a genie. I used > to rub it but alas, no genie came out with three wishes. > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2021, 9:47 AM Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > >> On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 9:43 AM brazee wrote: >> >> > I suspect magic lamps started from one story, as they don?t make much >> > sense. >> > >> >> 1001 Nights; the story of Aladdin. Anyone know of an earlier source for >> this? >> >> What other devices have had souls/spirits embedded in them? >> > >> >> The Rivers of London books have a couple of stories with souls captured in >> jars. Probably not the only such versions. >> >> >> Tony Zbaraschuk >> >> -- >> Tony Zbaraschuk >> Bookworm, talker, learner >> Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 23:02:10 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 17:02:10 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 - magic devices In-Reply-To: <9987C1FD-8195-47F0-8BB8-F7A053094B60@brazee.net> References: <9987C1FD-8195-47F0-8BB8-F7A053094B60@brazee.net> Message-ID: All my lamps have shades. They're haunted. On Thu, Oct 7, 2021, 10:32 AM brazee wrote: > > > > On Oct 7, 2021, at 9:14 AM, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > > > >> I suspect magic lamps started from one story, as they don?t make much > > sense. > > > > Do you mean like Aladdin and the genie? Why do you say they don't make > > sense? Compared to, say, rings with spirits in them? > > There is nothing special about an appliance, especially one that can be > lost or stolen. Jewelry is worn. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 23:04:37 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 17:04:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <0C669C72-DF9A-4789-9229-A56FD0CACEFA@brazee.net> Message-ID: I seem to recall that Heinlein and his wife ran into some trouble while visiting the Soviet Union. On Thu, Oct 7, 2021, 10:58 AM dbernat wrote: > brazee wrote: > > > Quite a bit of science fiction really assumed that the current > > American culture would be the culture of the future. > > How many writers had the familiarity with a non-US culture necessary to > write a believable story set outside the United States? > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From kcollett at hamilton.edu Thu Oct 7 23:04:59 2021 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Kathy C.) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 18:04:59 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cordwainer Smith was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <71ecd97e-0578-b846-f110-8138dc711e16@myinfmail.com> References: <71ecd97e-0578-b846-f110-8138dc711e16@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: <97555D14-C62F-4045-A0E4-088605DC5849@hamilton.edu> > EH: This got me thinking about British and Canadian SF, and reflecting that I > can't think of any SF from Australia or New Zealand. Can anyone point me to > NZ/Australian SF authors? I can think of NZ fantasy authors I've read > (Elizabeth Knox being a favourite), but SF? Tomorrow, When the War Began, by John Marsden, and the sequels. Near-future science fiction. On the fantasy side, I think Patricia Wrightson has been mentioned not too long ago. Katherine From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 23:27:37 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 17:27:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cordwainer Smith was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <97555D14-C62F-4045-A0E4-088605DC5849@hamilton.edu> References: <71ecd97e-0578-b846-f110-8138dc711e16@myinfmail.com> <97555D14-C62F-4045-A0E4-088605DC5849@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: I recommend Marsden's Tomorrow series highly. On Thu, Oct 7, 2021, 5:05 PM Kathy C. wrote: > > > EH: This got me thinking about British and Canadian SF, and reflecting > that I > > can't think of any SF from Australia or New Zealand. Can anyone point me > to > > NZ/Australian SF authors? I can think of NZ fantasy authors I've read > > (Elizabeth Knox being a favourite), but SF? > > Tomorrow, When the War Began, by John Marsden, and the sequels. > Near-future science fiction. On the fantasy side, I think Patricia > Wrightson has been mentioned not too long ago. > > Katherine > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From fred.fredex at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 23:28:34 2021 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 18:28:34 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein and Bujold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: before the fall of communism (in Russia) EVERYTHING had to have propaganda-ish value, else it (and its creator) were suppressed. On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 5:50 PM Joel Polowin wrote: > Matija Grabnar wrote: > > Once, when I was ... probably around 10, I got my hands on a translation > > of a Russian SF book. > > > > I don't remember much, other than it involved a crash on a high gravity > > planet, one of the protagonists was called "Wind Gift" and the society > > "back home" was glorious communism. I do remember it bored me to tears > > and turned me off all Eastern-European SF writers (other than Stanislaw > > Lem). > > I have a couple of anthologies edited by Asimov: _Soviet Science > Fiction_ and _More Soviet Science Fiction_. They're stories translated > from Russian. I gave up partway into the second one; I found them > *very* slow going. They were generally all about the triumph of > communism and its spread outward from Earth, and (to me) didn't seem to > be very well written. Part of that may have been from the translation. > But I found myself wondering if the books had been intended to be > propaganda-ish: "look at how bad the Russians are at writing SF!" > > Joel > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 23:30:06 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 17:30:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A. Bertram Chandler settled in Australia after the war and started writing science fiction. One of his more notable books was called "Kelly Country" a alternate history take of Ned Kelly's descendants. On Thu, Oct 7, 2021, 12:06 PM wrote: > On Thu, 7 Oct 2021, David Bowen wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 9:11 AM Elizabeth Holden > wrote: > > > >> > >> This got me thinking about British and Canadian SF, and reflecting that > I > >> can't think of any SF from Australia or New Zealand. Can anyone point > me to > >> NZ/Australian SF authors? I can think of NZ fantasy authors I've read > >> (Elizabeth Knox being a favourite), but SF? > >> > > > > Wikipedia has a list of Australian SF writers. The two names I recognized > > were John Birmingham and Sean McMullen. > > Another australian author, more on the fantasy side although he has > written SF: Garth Nix. > > I recently listened to the audiobook of his _Newt's Emerald_ and enjoyed > it thoroughly. Fantasy regency with a heroine who played with her cousins > and is very good with ships and knots and keeps rescuing herself before > the hero can get to her. Wittily written. > > http://www.garthnix.com/about/ > > Alayne > > -- > Alayne McGregor > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > > What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We > need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the > institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate > and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 23:38:31 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 17:38:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Rowling In-Reply-To: <31iulgpq7ou416kefarq9f12kag627p382@4ax.com> References: <31iulgpq7ou416kefarq9f12kag627p382@4ax.com> Message-ID: Well the sorting hat wanted Harry to be a Slytherin but Harry refused. On Thu, Oct 7, 2021, 2:19 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 11:00:07 -0400, Elizabeth Holden > wrote: > > >Marc Wilson said: > > > >> And Hermione is *so* a Ravenclaw. > > > >How so? Was Ravenclaw the smart group? > > In the sense of the academic group, yes: pursuit of knowledge for its > own sake. > > -- > Listen, every elite has a way of justifying itself. I don?t think any elite > ever said, just listen, we?re stronger, so we took what we wanted. > There?s always some ideology that rationalizes it. - William Deresiewicz > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 23:39:30 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 17:39:30 -0500 Subject: [LMB] ot: scary movies In-Reply-To: <46c5b6db-6c4a-5eac-9574-98845398cad9@mindspring.com> References: <46c5b6db-6c4a-5eac-9574-98845398cad9@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Good movie. On Thu, Oct 7, 2021, 3:14 PM wrote: > A movie that terrified me as a child was "The Naked Jungle" with Charlton > Heston, Eleanor Parker, and William Conrad. An advancing army of ants eats > everything--and everyone. > > Jerrie > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From wawenri at msn.com Fri Oct 8 00:17:12 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 23:17:12 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: <1E67CE9B-BBFD-4C14-A9CC-123FBC0560C1@brazee.net> References: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4.ref@aol.com> <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4@aol.com> <1E67CE9B-BBFD-4C14-A9CC-123FBC0560C1@brazee.net> Message-ID: There was Gilendree (SP) the demon in the shape of a sword from ?The Magic Goes Away?. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of brazee Sent: Thursday, October 7, 2021 8:43:27 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 > On Oct 7, 2021, at 8:27 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > What's really scary is that Stormbringer was not unique. It had its > "brother" sword, Mournblade, and in one story Elric, using his latest > Bat-Power that Moorcock had given him without any advance notice to the > readers, summoned a whole bunch of other runeblades to take care of > business. The tradition of magic swords is huge. One fun one is Lawrence Watt-Evan?s Misenchanted sword which would always kill, but at some random time would kill its wielder. There are examples of clay sling stones with curses stamped on them. I always thought that would be a useful fantasy tool. I suspect magic lamps started from one story, as they don?t make much sense. Rings, though are jewelry worn by the rich and powerful. And they often have gems. I found Moorcock?s end-of-time ?magic? rings interesting. What other devices have had souls/spirits embedded in them? -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C68b91a41cc7c403a778508d989a0da1e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637692146212307610%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=QksLyf5%2F8SKoPw6Q0xMiSrrMKJJcsiLOmpJN11AslhM%3D&reserved=0 From mathews55 at msn.com Fri Oct 8 00:20:23 2021 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 23:20:23 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To go way, way back, there's Australian writer Nevil Shute, who might have been a contemporary of Heinlein, or even earlier. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Raymond Collins Sent: Thursday, October 7, 2021 4:30 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Heinlein A. Bertram Chandler settled in Australia after the war and started writing science fiction. One of his more notable books was called "Kelly Country" a alternate history take of Ned Kelly's descendants. On Thu, Oct 7, 2021, 12:06 PM wrote: > On Thu, 7 Oct 2021, David Bowen wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 9:11 AM Elizabeth Holden > wrote: > > > >> > >> This got me thinking about British and Canadian SF, and reflecting that > I > >> can't think of any SF from Australia or New Zealand. Can anyone point > me to > >> NZ/Australian SF authors? I can think of NZ fantasy authors I've read > >> (Elizabeth Knox being a favourite), but SF? > >> > > > > Wikipedia has a list of Australian SF writers. The two names I recognized > > were John Birmingham and Sean McMullen. > > Another australian author, more on the fantasy side although he has > written SF: Garth Nix. > > I recently listened to the audiobook of his _Newt's Emerald_ and enjoyed > it thoroughly. Fantasy regency with a heroine who played with her cousins > and is very good with ships and knots and keeps rescuing herself before > the hero can get to her. Wittily written. > > http://www.garthnix.com/about/ > > Alayne > > -- > Alayne McGregor > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > > What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We > need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the > institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate > and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From alzurite at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 00:22:14 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 19:22:14 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OF: Australian SF Message-ID: Pat Mathews: > To go way, way back, there's Australian writer Nevil Shute, who might have been a contemporary > of Heinlein, or even earlier. I read some of his books, and loved them. Always planned to read more. But I don't remember them as being SF. What SF did he write? namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Fri Oct 8 00:30:26 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 19:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] OF: Australian SF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Shute wrote _On the Beach_ about the world dying after a nuclear war. I'm a bit vague of the details of that book because nuclear war apocalypses are no longer my idea of leisure reading. Alayne On Thu, 7 Oct 2021, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Pat Mathews: > >> To go way, way back, there's Australian writer Nevil Shute, who might > have been a contemporary > of Heinlein, or even earlier. > > I read some of his books, and loved them. Always planned to read more. But > I don't remember them as being SF. What SF did he write? > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From mathews55 at msn.com Fri Oct 8 00:36:01 2021 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 23:36:01 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OF: Australian SF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: He wrote quite a bit of other stuff, too, including a near-future s/f whose name I have totally forgotten. It did feature a society where you could earn extra votes by this, that, or the other thing - very Komarran, that. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sent: Thursday, October 7, 2021 5:30 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OF: Australian SF Shute wrote _On the Beach_ about the world dying after a nuclear war. I'm a bit vague of the details of that book because nuclear war apocalypses are no longer my idea of leisure reading. Alayne On Thu, 7 Oct 2021, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Pat Mathews: > >> To go way, way back, there's Australian writer Nevil Shute, who might > have been a contemporary > of Heinlein, or even earlier. > > I read some of his books, and loved them. Always planned to read more. But > I don't remember them as being SF. What SF did he write? > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 8 00:50:47 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 17:50:47 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <0C669C72-DF9A-4789-9229-A56FD0CACEFA@brazee.net> Message-ID: <38157713-002A-4C1D-94E2-2A54C2443ED7@brazee.net> > On Oct 7, 2021, at 4:04 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > I seem to recall that Heinlein and his wife ran into some trouble while > visiting the Soviet Union. That was late in his career. One of the things he noticed was that his observations did not support the claims the USSR made about its population and economy. From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 8 00:52:27 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 17:52:27 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OF: Australian SF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1A82C3AC-42FF-42B5-BAD0-861D8E293A44@brazee.net> > On Oct 7, 2021, at 5:22 PM, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > >> To go way, way back, there's Australian writer Nevil Shute, who might > have been a contemporary > of Heinlein, or even earlier. > > I read some of his books, and loved them. Always planned to read more. But > I don't remember them as being SF. What SF did he write? I suppose On The Beach counts. From dbernat at gol.com Fri Oct 8 00:54:14 2021 From: dbernat at gol.com (dbernat) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 08:54:14 +0900 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <88b2a02031e64656bb80daf93a4675e2@gol.com> Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Any writer who is not American. Or any writer who is an immigrant or > aboriginal. Or writers who have studied other cultures, or who have > lived > outside the U.S. for long enough to observe and understand another > culture. > Or writers who are dealing with different subcultures within the U.S. > > This is not necessarily a goal for American SF writers to pursue, but > if > it's chosen as a goal, it's not particularly inaccessible. It could happen a lot more than it does. Even self-publishing on Kindle hasn't boosted the numbers much. > This got me thinking about British and Canadian SF, and reflecting that > I > can't think of any SF from Australia or New Zealand. Can anyone point > me to > NZ/Australian SF authors? I can think of NZ fantasy authors I've read > (Elizabeth Knox being a favourite), but SF? Nevil Shute wrote some SF. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 01:31:19 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 19:31:19 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OF: Australian SF In-Reply-To: <1A82C3AC-42FF-42B5-BAD0-861D8E293A44@brazee.net> References: <1A82C3AC-42FF-42B5-BAD0-861D8E293A44@brazee.net> Message-ID: I read the book "On The Beach" and saw the movie. The main character was the captain of the last surviving nuclear submarine his crew and the people of Australia. The most poignant scene is when Moira stands on the bluff looking over the sea as the submarine and her crew dives for the last time. It definitely was not a cheerful ending. On Thu, Oct 7, 2021, 6:52 PM brazee wrote: > > > > On Oct 7, 2021, at 5:22 PM, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > > > >> To go way, way back, there's Australian writer Nevil Shute, who might > > have been a contemporary > of Heinlein, or even earlier. > > > > I read some of his books, and loved them. Always planned to read more. > But > > I don't remember them as being SF. What SF did he write? > > I suppose On The Beach counts. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 8 01:39:52 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 18:39:52 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OF: Australian SF In-Reply-To: References: <1A82C3AC-42FF-42B5-BAD0-861D8E293A44@brazee.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 7, 2021, at 6:31 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > I read the book "On The Beach" and saw the movie. The main character was > the captain of the last surviving nuclear submarine his crew and the people > of Australia. The most poignant scene is when Moira stands on the bluff > looking over the sea as the submarine and her crew dives for the last time. > It definitely was not a cheerful ending. I saw the movie when it came out, and remembered images of the lines & of San Francisco and the music. I didn?t read it until last year. From kcollett at hamilton.edu Fri Oct 8 01:46:44 2021 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Kathy C.) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 20:46:44 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: <1E67CE9B-BBFD-4C14-A9CC-123FBC0560C1@brazee.net> References: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4.ref@aol.com> <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4@aol.com> <1E67CE9B-BBFD-4C14-A9CC-123FBC0560C1@brazee.net> Message-ID: <73696657-7861-40C6-B5BC-CB1F464154DD@hamilton.edu> On Oct 7, 2021, at 10:43 AM, brazee wrote: > > The tradition of magic swords is huge. I?m currently reading (well, listening to) T. Kingfisher?s Swordheart, in which one of the main characters IS a magic sword. Well, a warrior who has been put into a magic sword, from which he emerges when it?s drawn ? quite like a genie. Except that now the widow who wields him and the lawyer-priest of the Rat God who is traveling with them are enthusiastically trying to figure out exactly how the magic works, and making him experiment with things like, if he goes into the sword needing to piss, does he still need to piss when he comes out again. Highly recommend. Katherine From saffronrose at me.com Fri Oct 8 02:45:53 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 18:45:53 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hayao Miyazaki items Message-ID: <1CDF78EF-80CB-42E3-BF7E-AA455392D126@me.com> ? Kodama Tree Spirits By Hayao Miyazaki Just when they seemed to appear They tittered in laughter and have already disappeared Just when they seemed to be walking at my feet They were already in the duskiness far away, laughing When spoken to, they run off in shyness When ignored, they come close You small children, children of the forest Ah, to you this forest that you inhabit is so full of fun. https://www.npr.org/2021/10/02/1042155204/academy-museum-hayao-miyazaki-studio-ghibli-exhibition This is at the Academy Museum of Motion Pictures in Los Angeles. Also: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/09/03/218594051/the-wondrous-melancholy-worlds-of-hayao-miyazaki A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 03:27:31 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 21:27:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] ot: scary movies In-Reply-To: References: <46c5b6db-6c4a-5eac-9574-98845398cad9@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Since All Knowledge Is Contained in Fandom, is it true that a column of army or driver ants (One is African, the other is South American) will strip a human body of its flesh? On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 5:39 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > Good movie. > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2021, 3:14 PM wrote: > > > A movie that terrified me as a child was "The Naked Jungle" with Charlton > > Heston, Eleanor Parker, and William Conrad. An advancing army of ants > eats > > everything--and everyone. > > > > Jerrie > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From loisclare at hotmail.com Fri Oct 8 07:11:56 2021 From: loisclare at hotmail.com (Lois Rasmussen) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 06:11:56 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Australian Authors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Two Australian Authors I have enjoyed are Traci Harding's Fantasy works and The racy Chinese fantasy with lots of fighting works by Kylie Chan who lived in Hong Kong for a time but is Australian. Another series is "Hal Space Jock" by Simon Haynes if you like silly Sci Fi. Most of my Tasmanian author friends do historical for example Shirley Patton...she was on every K-Mark book department shelf one recent Christmas. Lots of excellent writers here. Lois Rasmussen. ________________________________ From baur at chello.at Fri Oct 8 07:17:34 2021 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 08:17:34 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Fwd: OF: Australian SF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Wet i also strong suggest to read his autobiography "sliderule" servus markus Am 08.10.2021 um 01:36 schrieb Pat Mathews: > He wrote quite a bit of other stuff, too, including a near-future s/f whose name I have totally forgotten. It did feature a society where you could earn extra votes by this, that, or the other thing - very Komarran, that. > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > Sent: Thursday, October 7, 2021 5:30 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. > Subject: Re: [LMB] OF: Australian SF > > Shute wrote _On the Beach_ about the world dying after a nuclear war. > > I'm a bit vague of the details of that book because nuclear war > apocalypses are no longer my idea of leisure reading. > > Alayne > > On Thu, 7 Oct 2021, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > >> Pat Mathews: >> >>> To go way, way back, there's Australian writer Nevil Shute, who might >> have been a contemporary > of Heinlein, or even earlier. >> >> I read some of his books, and loved them. Always planned to read more. But >> I don't remember them as being SF. What SF did he write? >> >> namaste, >> Elizabeth >> >> Elizabeth Holden >> > > -- > Alayne McGregor > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > > What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We > need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the > institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate > and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 8 13:30:06 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 06:30:06 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 - magic devices In-Reply-To: <9987C1FD-8195-47F0-8BB8-F7A053094B60@brazee.net> References: <9987C1FD-8195-47F0-8BB8-F7A053094B60@brazee.net> Message-ID: Devices with personality will often have a magical being?s essence. I hesitate to call them souls, as there also is a tradition that only humans have souls. But animals have worked. There are statues that have come alive with their own ?souls?, as in Pygmalion or The Iron Giant. But Science Fiction has had people?s brains or memories implanted in mechanical bodies. I find those harder to accept than fantasy soul transferring, as our personalities are strongly affected by brain structure, hormones, and other chemicals. Fantasy bypasses that desire for realism. But I am getting ahead of myself. From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 15:35:43 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 10:35:43 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: <38157713-002A-4C1D-94E2-2A54C2443ED7@brazee.net> References: <0C669C72-DF9A-4789-9229-A56FD0CACEFA@brazee.net> <38157713-002A-4C1D-94E2-2A54C2443ED7@brazee.net> Message-ID: I've had this topic come up before. Heinlein's conclusions were pretty completely wrong, because he assumed American levels of consumption and concluded that the Soviet Union must have been inflating their population claims. I'm sure lots of people lied about many things, but the Russians simply didn't consume as many resources. HIs guesses about the future are also hilariously wrong, but predictions always are. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 15:50:11 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 10:50:11 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 - magic devices In-Reply-To: References: <9987C1FD-8195-47F0-8BB8-F7A053094B60@brazee.net> Message-ID: When you have a whole lot of djinn to bind, and you start running out of medallions and rings and crowns, you start picking up toothbrushes. Staplers. Oil lamps. One of the points of such objects is the contrast between the normality and mundanity of the items, and the power they grant. The ring in Aladdin is plain, unadorned, and brass IIRC. It's jewelry of the sort worn by poorer merchants. The lamp is metal, and thus better quality than clay, but it's otherwise unremarkable. Matt G. From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 8 16:03:40 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 09:03:40 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 - magic devices In-Reply-To: References: <9987C1FD-8195-47F0-8BB8-F7A053094B60@brazee.net> Message-ID: <492C30BD-ACE0-4273-87B3-541FAEF9E854@brazee.net> > On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:50 AM, Matthew George wrote: > > When you have a whole lot of djinn to bind, and you start running out of > medallions and rings and crowns, you start picking up toothbrushes. > Staplers. Oil lamps. Was that the case with Aladdin?s lamp? > > One of the points of such objects is the contrast between the normality and > mundanity of the items, and the power they grant. The ring in Aladdin is > plain, unadorned, and brass IIRC. It's jewelry of the sort worn by poorer > merchants. The lamp is metal, and thus better quality than clay, but it's > otherwise unremarkable. That is useful for an every kid fantasy who lucks into wealth. But powerful people (who can enslave spirits) tend to go for bling. From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 16:15:01 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 11:15:01 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 - magic devices In-Reply-To: <492C30BD-ACE0-4273-87B3-541FAEF9E854@brazee.net> References: <9987C1FD-8195-47F0-8BB8-F7A053094B60@brazee.net> <492C30BD-ACE0-4273-87B3-541FAEF9E854@brazee.net> Message-ID: Practical rich people go for high-quality but normal stuff, rather than solid gold toilets and diamond-encrusted socks. People who really dress to impress go for tasteful, restrained, but expensively-tailored clothing rather than covering everything with rhinestones. Even Sulaiman bin Daoud, who was legendarily wealthy, had to have support staff in his ultimate palace, and their equipment would have been great but normal. After all, gold is dense and would make for a heavy lamp to carry, and why bother plating or decorating utility items? No one makes gold-plated flashlights. The really good flashlights are expensive, with titanium casings, but not bling. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 16:25:14 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 11:25:14 -0400 Subject: [LMB] ot: scary movies In-Reply-To: References: <46c5b6db-6c4a-5eac-9574-98845398cad9@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Something I always thought was a movie, but a search now informs me was a TV episode: Amazing Stories, "Go to the Head of the Class". I stumbled across it while channel-surfing as a child. High-school students playing around with a grimoire end up killing their hated principal with black magic. To undo their spell, they conduct a resurrection ritual, but accidentally tear the head off the photo they use as the target object. The ritual works! Sort of. The body chasing the students through the darkened house, while the head laughs and laughs and laughs... really messed me up. I know it's corny, I know it's stupid, but... [shudders] Ooh, there's a trailer! https://www.imdb.com/video/vi3102719257/?ref_=tt_vi_i_1 Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 16:30:25 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 11:30:25 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein and Bujold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lots of American SF was propaganda too, although neither the audience nor the authors necessarily realized it. "Now good old American can-do will conquer the final frontier! It's our manifest destiny to colonize the entire universe!" Et cetera. Indeed, too many people think that settings of SF properties are meant to indicate *approval* of the setting by its creators. "Firefly" isn't meant to advocate for its setting, folks. Matt G. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 16:28:13 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 10:28:13 -0500 Subject: [LMB] ot: scary movies In-Reply-To: References: <46c5b6db-6c4a-5eac-9574-98845398cad9@mindspring.com> Message-ID: A human who was injured or unconscious might not be able to get away. And you never have a giant-sized can of Raid when you need one, at least in my experience. On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 10:23 AM Matthew George wrote: > Something I always thought was a movie, but a search now informs me was a > TV episode: Amazing Stories, "Go to the Head of the Class". > > I stumbled across it while channel-surfing as a child. High-school > students playing around with a grimoire end up killing their hated > principal with black magic. To undo their spell, they conduct a > resurrection ritual, but accidentally tear the head off the photo they use > as the target object. The ritual works! Sort of. > > The body chasing the students through the darkened house, while the head > laughs and laughs and laughs... really messed me up. I know it's corny, I > know it's stupid, but... [shudders] > > Ooh, there's a trailer! > https://www.imdb.com/video/vi3102719257/?ref_=tt_vi_i_1 > > Matt G. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 8 16:45:24 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 09:45:24 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 - magic devices In-Reply-To: References: <9987C1FD-8195-47F0-8BB8-F7A053094B60@brazee.net> <492C30BD-ACE0-4273-87B3-541FAEF9E854@brazee.net> Message-ID: <002529E5-C608-4F99-9C05-5A4243742A34@brazee.net> > On Oct 8, 2021, at 9:15 AM, Matthew George wrote: > > Practical rich people go for high-quality but normal stuff, rather than > solid gold toilets and diamond-encrusted socks. People who really dress to > impress go for tasteful, restrained, but expensively-tailored clothing > rather than covering everything with rhinestones. Even Sulaiman bin Daoud, > who was legendarily wealthy, had to have support staff in his ultimate > palace, and their equipment would have been great but normal. After all, > gold is dense and would make for a heavy lamp to carry, and why bother > plating or decorating utility items? No one makes gold-plated > flashlights. The really good flashlights are expensive, with titanium > casings, but not bling. They don?t want a flashlight, they want something that can?t get lost. Poor people?s fantasies are to find something discarded. Powerful people want something that can?t get lost, like a ring or an amulet. But they don?t want it to seem inappropriate. From jpolowin at hotmail.com Fri Oct 8 16:51:58 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 15:51:58 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein and Bujold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fred wrote: > On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 5:50 PM Joel Polowin wrote: >> I have a couple of anthologies edited by Asimov: _Soviet Science >> Fiction_ and _More Soviet Science Fiction_.? They're stories translated >> from Russian.? I gave up partway into the second one; I found them >> *very* slow going.? They were generally all about the triumph of >> communism and its spread outward from Earth, and (to me) didn't seem to >> be very well written.? Part of that may have been from the translation. >> But I found myself wondering if the books had been intended to be >> propaganda-ish: "look at how bad the Russians are at writing SF!" > before the fall of communism (in Russia) EVERYTHING had to have > propaganda-ish value, else it (and its creator) were suppressed. Perhaps to clarify: I thought that perhaps the books were *American* propaganda. It seemed unlikely to me that out of the entire field of Russian SF, the editors/publishers couldn't collect a set of not-too-long stories for a not-too-long anthology that were good reading. Maybe it's a "Sturgeon's Law" thing. Perhaps 90% of the field was crap, but I expect that the people behind an anthology will be gatekeepers of a sort, filtering out the less-good material to create a book worth reading. Joel From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 17:29:56 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 11:29:56 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein and Bujold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Getting the rights to publish those stories might have been a factor. On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 10:52 AM Joel Polowin wrote: > Fred wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 5:50 PM Joel Polowin > wrote: > >> I have a couple of anthologies edited by Asimov: _Soviet Science > >> Fiction_ and _More Soviet Science Fiction_. They're stories translated > >> from Russian. I gave up partway into the second one; I found them > >> *very* slow going. They were generally all about the triumph of > >> communism and its spread outward from Earth, and (to me) didn't seem to > >> be very well written. Part of that may have been from the translation. > >> But I found myself wondering if the books had been intended to be > >> propaganda-ish: "look at how bad the Russians are at writing SF!" > > before the fall of communism (in Russia) EVERYTHING had to have > > propaganda-ish value, else it (and its creator) were suppressed. > > Perhaps to clarify: I thought that perhaps the books were *American* > propaganda. It seemed unlikely to me that out of the entire field > of Russian SF, the editors/publishers couldn't collect a set of > not-too-long stories for a not-too-long anthology that were good > reading. Maybe it's a "Sturgeon's Law" thing. Perhaps 90% of the > field was crap, but I expect that the people behind an anthology will be > gatekeepers of a sort, filtering out the less-good material to create a > book worth reading. > > Joel > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From loisaletafundis at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 17:37:17 2021 From: loisaletafundis at gmail.com (Lois Aleta Fundis) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 12:37:17 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein and Bujold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Back in those days, for an author in the Soviet Union to publish anything critical of Communism would erry probably have landed tha author and his/her publisher in a gulag. Or possibly worse. "the other Lois" On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 12:30 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > Getting the rights to publish those stories might have been a factor. > > On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 10:52 AM Joel Polowin wrote: > > > Fred wrote: > > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 5:50 PM Joel Polowin > > wrote: > > >> I have a couple of anthologies edited by Asimov: _Soviet Science > > >> Fiction_ and _More Soviet Science Fiction_. They're stories > translated > > >> from Russian. I gave up partway into the second one; I found them > > >> *very* slow going. They were generally all about the triumph of > > >> communism and its spread outward from Earth, and (to me) didn't seem > to > > >> be very well written. Part of that may have been from the > translation. > > >> But I found myself wondering if the books had been intended to be > > >> propaganda-ish: "look at how bad the Russians are at writing SF!" > > > before the fall of communism (in Russia) EVERYTHING had to have > > > propaganda-ish value, else it (and its creator) were suppressed. > > > > Perhaps to clarify: I thought that perhaps the books were *American* > > propaganda. It seemed unlikely to me that out of the entire field > > of Russian SF, the editors/publishers couldn't collect a set of > > not-too-long stories for a not-too-long anthology that were good > > reading. Maybe it's a "Sturgeon's Law" thing. Perhaps 90% of the > > field was crap, but I expect that the people behind an anthology will be > > gatekeepers of a sort, filtering out the less-good material to create a > > book worth reading. > > > > Joel > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to loisaletafundis at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois Aleta Fundis loisaletafundis at gmail.com "No one you have ever been and no place you have ever gone ever leaves you. The new parts of you simply jump in the car and go along for the rest of the ride." -- Bruce Springsteen From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 17:51:30 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 12:51:30 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 - magic devices In-Reply-To: <002529E5-C608-4F99-9C05-5A4243742A34@brazee.net> References: <9987C1FD-8195-47F0-8BB8-F7A053094B60@brazee.net> <492C30BD-ACE0-4273-87B3-541FAEF9E854@brazee.net> <002529E5-C608-4F99-9C05-5A4243742A34@brazee.net> Message-ID: Sulaimen had bound djinn far more powerful than those in Aladdin. The object is just a receptacle, after all. Presumably the really useful ones were in special jewelry that bin Daoud could plausibly wear as a king, but the ones that merely imprisoned djinni? Nothing special. The "djinn in a bottle" had been thrown into the sea, after all. Matt G. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Fri Oct 8 17:56:55 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 17:56:55 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OF: Australian SF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 19:22:14 -0400, Elizabeth Holden wrote: >Pat Mathews: > >> To go way, way back, there's Australian writer Nevil Shute, who might >have been a contemporary > of Heinlein, or even earlier. > >I read some of his books, and loved them. Always planned to read more. But >I don't remember them as being SF. What SF did he write? On the Beach? -- -The Devil's Dictionary, 1911 critic, n. A person who boasts himself hard to please because nobody tries to please him. (Ambrose Bierce) From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Fri Oct 8 17:57:57 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 17:57:57 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OF: Australian SF In-Reply-To: References: <1A82C3AC-42FF-42B5-BAD0-861D8E293A44@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 18:39:52 -0600, brazee wrote: > > >> On Oct 7, 2021, at 6:31 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: >> >> I read the book "On The Beach" and saw the movie. The main character was >> the captain of the last surviving nuclear submarine his crew and the people >> of Australia. The most poignant scene is when Moira stands on the bluff >> looking over the sea as the submarine and her crew dives for the last time. >> It definitely was not a cheerful ending. > >I saw the movie when it came out, and remembered images of the lines & of San Francisco and the music. I didn?t read it until last year. "This is the way the world ends; not with a bang, but with a whimper." -- -The Devil's Dictionary, 1911 critic, n. A person who boasts himself hard to please because nobody tries to please him. (Ambrose Bierce) From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Fri Oct 8 17:59:25 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 17:59:25 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Rowling In-Reply-To: References: <31iulgpq7ou416kefarq9f12kag627p382@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 17:38:31 -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: >Well the sorting hat wanted Harry to be a Slytherin but Harry refused. Not how I remember it; he stressed "not Slytherin" and the hat said "Are you sure?" -- -The Devil's Dictionary, 1911 critic, n. A person who boasts himself hard to please because nobody tries to please him. (Ambrose Bierce) From rgmolpus at flash.net Fri Oct 8 18:32:28 2021 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard G. Molpus) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 17:32:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Heinlein and Bujold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <296166528.1117636.1633714348049@mail.yahoo.com> During the Soviet era, only authors who were members in good standing with the official Writer's and Author's union could be published; the rules for 'good standing; included a requirement that their work be agreeable with existing political dogma of the USSR communist party. ? As the official dogma of the USSR had that Marxist theory of history insisted that the eventual result was a 'Worker's Paradise'; works that implied that the future of society wasn't that nice wasn't acceptable. Since much of SF and Fantasy is 'What If' stories, this forces the writers away from real extrapolation of the future and into 'this is what we're going to get'. ? ?? It was 'Woke' before 'Woke' was a thing.?? On Friday, October 8, 2021, 11:38:00 AM CDT, Lois Aleta Fundis wrote: Back in those days, for an author in the Soviet Union to publish anything critical of Communism would erry probably have landed tha author and his/her publisher in a gulag. Or possibly worse. "the other Lois" On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 12:30 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > Getting the rights to publish those stories might have been a factor. > > On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 10:52 AM Joel Polowin wrote: > > > Fred wrote: > > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 5:50 PM Joel Polowin > > wrote: > > >> I have a couple of anthologies edited by Asimov: _Soviet Science > > >> Fiction_ and _More Soviet Science Fiction_.? They're stories > translated > > >> from Russian.? I gave up partway into the second one; I found them > > >> *very* slow going.? They were generally all about the triumph of > > >> communism and its spread outward from Earth, and (to me) didn't seem > to > > >> be very well written.? Part of that may have been from the > translation. > > >> But I found myself wondering if the books had been intended to be > > >> propaganda-ish: "look at how bad the Russians are at writing SF!" > > > before the fall of communism (in Russia) EVERYTHING had to have > > > propaganda-ish value, else it (and its creator) were suppressed. > > > > Perhaps to clarify: I thought that perhaps the books were *American* > > propaganda.? It seemed unlikely to me that out of the entire field > > of Russian SF, the editors/publishers couldn't collect a set of > > not-too-long stories for a not-too-long anthology that were good > > reading.? Maybe it's a "Sturgeon's Law" thing.? Perhaps 90% of the > > field was crap, but I expect that the people behind an anthology will be > > gatekeepers of a sort, filtering out the less-good material to create a > > book worth reading. > > > > Joel > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to loisaletafundis at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois Aleta Fundis loisaletafundis at gmail.com "No one you have ever been and no place you have ever gone ever leaves you. The new parts of you simply jump in the car and go along for the rest of the ride." -- Bruce Springsteen -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From lmb at matija.com Fri Oct 8 18:33:33 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 18:33:33 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 - magic devices In-Reply-To: References: <9987C1FD-8195-47F0-8BB8-F7A053094B60@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 08/10/2021 15:50, Matthew George wrote: > The lamp is metal, and thus better quality than clay, but it's > otherwise unremarkable. Not only that, but at one point, the housekeeper trades the lamp for a new, shiny lamp. From jpolowin at hotmail.com Fri Oct 8 18:49:03 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 17:49:03 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein and Bujold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Richard G. Molpus" wrote: > During the Soviet era, only authors who were members in good standing > with the official Writer's and Author's union could be published; the > rules for 'good standing; included a requirement that their work be > agreeable with existing political dogma of the USSR communist party. > > As the official dogma of the USSR had that Marxist theory of history > insisted that the eventual result was a 'Worker's Paradise'; works > that implied that the future of society wasn't that nice wasn't > acceptable. Since much of SF and Fantasy is 'What If' stories, this > forces the writers away from real extrapolation of the future and into > 'this is what we're going to get'. Sure, but a lot of non-USSR SF of that period didn't touch on politics or workers or anything like that *at all*. There's a gap between "must be agreeable with existing political dogma" and "must promote political dogma". A story of exploration, or a "puzzle story", shouldn't have ruffled feathers, while not being explicitly pro-communist. I'm not convinced that all Russian fiction of that period had to explicitly be pro-communist. It's not *impossible* that all of the Soviet analogues of John Campbell would have that requirement, but it seemed unlikely. And at any rate, the stories in those books seemed clunky even apart from that element. Joel From alzurite at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 19:19:47 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 14:19:47 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Elizabeth's Bujold Trivia Quiz #1 - The Grand Winner Message-ID: > On Oct 7, 2021, at 9:54 AM, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > > The quote is: " Deliver success or pay with your ass ." > > Can you name: > (1) The book > (2) The name of the person speaking > (3) The name of person spoken to > > Bonus points if you can give context. Howard Brazee bravely answered me: > Cetaganda, Yes indeed > Miles, Of course. > ???? It was Protocol Officer Voreedi. And the Context? > I don?t remember. Miles was trying to explain his current assignment with regard to the Imperium and Impec while simultaneously implying several untrue things at once. Okay, Howard, as the very first winner of the Elizabeth Holden Grand Prize you get a fanfare of trumpets and a medium-size virtual box of your favourite childhood candy tasting just as good as you remember it. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From lmb at matija.com Fri Oct 8 19:21:24 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 19:21:24 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 - magic devices In-Reply-To: References: <9987C1FD-8195-47F0-8BB8-F7A053094B60@brazee.net> <492C30BD-ACE0-4273-87B3-541FAEF9E854@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 08/10/2021 16:15, Matthew George wrote: > Practical rich people go for high-quality but normal stuff, rather than > solid gold toilets and diamond-encrusted socks. Bill Gates, far richer than any of the ex presidents was famously described as "Dresses like he owns a shoe store". From alzurite at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 19:23:06 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 14:23:06 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Elizabeth's Bujold Trivia Quiz Question #2 Message-ID: The quote is, "I've been living with obsessed men for the better part of my life." Can you name: (1) The book (2) The name of the person speaking (3) The name of the person spoken to Bonus points if you can give context. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From wawenri at msn.com Fri Oct 8 19:45:24 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 18:45:24 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <0C669C72-DF9A-4789-9229-A56FD0CACEFA@brazee.net> <38157713-002A-4C1D-94E2-2A54C2443ED7@brazee.net> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- Matthew George I've had this topic come up before. Heinlein's conclusions were pretty completely wrong, because he assumed American levels of consumption and concluded that the Soviet Union must have been inflating their population claims. I'm sure lots of people lied about many things, but the Russians simply didn't consume as many resources. HIs guesses about the future are also hilariously wrong, but predictions always are. Matt G. ======================================================================= As I recall his conclusions were not based on consumption but on family size among the people he talked to. I don't remember the numbers he reported, but if most families have only one or two children and the people say that they only have one cousin, the population isn't growing. IIRC, most of these questions were posed by Virginia. William A Wenrich Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. From rgmolpus at flash.net Fri Oct 8 19:56:04 2021 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard G. Molpus) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 18:56:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <0C669C72-DF9A-4789-9229-A56FD0CACEFA@brazee.net> <38157713-002A-4C1D-94E2-2A54C2443ED7@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2137657922.1153020.1633719364953@mail.yahoo.com> He also quizzed and old friend from Academy days - about transport logistics to supply Moscow. The answer he got was 'We know they're lying, but it's a lie we don't want to challenge'. On Friday, October 8, 2021, 01:45:41 PM CDT, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: -----Original Message----- Matthew George I've had this topic come up before.? Heinlein's conclusions were pretty completely wrong, because he assumed American levels of consumption and concluded that the Soviet Union must have been inflating their population claims.? I'm sure lots of people lied about many things, but the Russians simply didn't consume as many resources. HIs guesses about the future are also hilariously wrong, but predictions always are. Matt G. ======================================================================= As I recall his conclusions were not based on consumption but on family size among the people he talked to. I don't remember the numbers he reported, but if most families have only one or two children and the people say that they only have one cousin, the population isn't growing. IIRC, most of these questions were posed by Virginia. William A Wenrich Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From lmb at matija.com Fri Oct 8 19:58:10 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 19:58:10 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein and Bujold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7f92012f-2cbe-153b-9de8-b5b966722754@matija.com> On 08/10/2021 18:49, Joel Polowin wrote: > Sure, but a lot of non-USSR SF of that period didn't touch on politics > or workers or anything like that *at all*. There's a gap between "must > be agreeable with existing political dogma" and "must promote political > dogma". A story of exploration, or a "puzzle story", shouldn't have > ruffled feathers, while not being explicitly pro-communist.\ Once again, I must draw people's attention to work of Stanislaw Lem. Polish, not Russian, but from that era and quite good science fiction, which at no point mentions anything related to communism, at least in none of the works I remember reading. From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 20:03:37 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 15:03:37 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: <2137657922.1153020.1633719364953@mail.yahoo.com> References: <0C669C72-DF9A-4789-9229-A56FD0CACEFA@brazee.net> <38157713-002A-4C1D-94E2-2A54C2443ED7@brazee.net> <2137657922.1153020.1633719364953@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, I know, I own the book in which Heinlein discusses and recounts the matter. His account, of course, supports his conclusions. Other people, discussing his claims, have pointed out problems with his arguments - not least being that we =know= he was wrong in his conclusions, so there are necessarily problems with the arguments that lead to them. In this case, the issue wasn't so much with his reasoning, but in his assumptions. Matt G. From wawenri at msn.com Fri Oct 8 20:33:51 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 19:33:51 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Rowling In-Reply-To: References: <31iulgpq7ou416kefarq9f12kag627p382@4ax.com> Message-ID: I?d likely go with Ravenclaw. Concentrate on educating those who can use it best. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Marc Wilson Sent: Friday, October 8, 2021 10:59:25 AM To: LMB Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Rowling On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 17:38:31 -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: >Well the sorting hat wanted Harry to be a Slytherin but Harry refused. Not how I remember it; he stressed "not Slytherin" and the hat said "Are you sure?" -- -The Devil's Dictionary, 1911 critic, n. A person who boasts himself hard to please because nobody tries to please him. (Ambrose Bierce) -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cd7d1d79091d24c7bcdd008d98a7d00c9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637693091756521075%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=LOmSn7BvJe8CCpfWOskR2nuRUshZvcqaGYT%2FxLADMQQ%3D&reserved=0 From domelouann at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 20:49:55 2021 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 14:49:55 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 - magic devices In-Reply-To: References: <9987C1FD-8195-47F0-8BB8-F7A053094B60@brazee.net> <492C30BD-ACE0-4273-87B3-541FAEF9E854@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 1:21 PM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On 08/10/2021 16:15, Matthew George wrote: > > Practical rich people go for high-quality but normal stuff, rather than > > solid gold toilets and diamond-encrusted socks. > > Bill Gates, far richer than any of the ex presidents was famously > described as > > "Dresses like he owns a shoe store". > Gates has at least his share of character flaws, but he knows better than to gauge his self-worth by the amount of gold plated stuff he owns. From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 21:16:13 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 16:16:13 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 - magic devices In-Reply-To: References: <9987C1FD-8195-47F0-8BB8-F7A053094B60@brazee.net> <492C30BD-ACE0-4273-87B3-541FAEF9E854@brazee.net> Message-ID: The really, really rich don't go in for flash, if only because they're trying to distinguish themselves along class lines, and flash is what most people would go for. They tend to go for items that are visibly high-quality, but modestly decorated. There are other ways of showing off one's supposed discernment. It's well-demonstrated that very few people have sufficiently sensitive senses of taste and smell to detect the differences that it's claimed distinguish different varieties of wine; it's also well-demonstrated that the bottle in which wine is presented tends to determine how that wine is perceived. Conformity to expectation is a way of establishing status that everyone tends to use, regardless of what specific expectations are involved. Matt G. On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 3:50 PM Louann Miller wrote: > On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 1:21 PM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > On 08/10/2021 16:15, Matthew George wrote: > > > Practical rich people go for high-quality but normal stuff, rather than > > > solid gold toilets and diamond-encrusted socks. > > > > Bill Gates, far richer than any of the ex presidents was famously > > described as > > > > "Dresses like he owns a shoe store". > > > > Gates has at least his share of character flaws, but he knows better than > to gauge his self-worth by the amount of gold plated stuff he owns. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to matt.msg at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From mathews55 at msn.com Fri Oct 8 21:21:21 2021 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 20:21:21 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Elizabeth's Bujold Trivia Quiz Question #2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen Cordelia Jole, I think. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Elizabeth Holden Sent: Friday, October 8, 2021 12:23 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: [LMB] Elizabeth's Bujold Trivia Quiz Question #2 The quote is, "I've been living with obsessed men for the better part of my life." Can you name: (1) The book (2) The name of the person speaking (3) The name of the person spoken to Bonus points if you can give context. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 22:44:31 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 16:44:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Russian SF Message-ID: It occurs to me that a lot of the problem with those Soviet SF stories might have been due to clunky translation. Ideally, a translator knows both languages intimately, down to idioms, and also has a fine writing style in the target language. Paragons of this caliber are rare. From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 8 23:38:40 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 16:38:40 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein and Bujold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2CDBB4E1-1EE8-4BCD-BA37-35335C4F4440@brazee.net> > On Oct 8, 2021, at 10:37 AM, Lois Aleta Fundis wrote: > > Back in those days, for an author in the Soviet Union to publish anything > critical of Communism would erry probably have landed tha author and > his/her publisher in a gulag. Or possibly worse. Any country that can get away with it would like control the media. The Internet makes it difficult, but we can see it happening. It doesn?t matter what kind of economic system the country has. From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 8 23:42:09 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 16:42:09 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein and Bujold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2F9D7EBD-3C93-4445-97ED-07FF8C96582D@brazee.net> > On Oct 8, 2021, at 11:49 AM, Joel Polowin wrote: > > Sure, but a lot of non-USSR SF of that period didn't touch on politics > or workers or anything like that *at all*. There's a gap between "must > be agreeable with existing political dogma" and "must promote political > dogma". A story of exploration, or a "puzzle story", shouldn't have > ruffled feathers, while not being explicitly pro-communist. I'm not > convinced that all Russian fiction of that period had to explicitly be > pro-communist. It's not *impossible* that all of the Soviet analogues > of John Campbell would have that requirement, but it seemed unlikely. > And at any rate, the stories in those books seemed clunky even apart > from that element. It?s interesting what censorship does to art. In the Soviet Union, it was said that all art was political, while in the U.S. during sexual censorship, all art was about sex. Well, at least movies. From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 8 23:48:44 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 16:48:44 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 - magic devices In-Reply-To: References: <9987C1FD-8195-47F0-8BB8-F7A053094B60@brazee.net> <492C30BD-ACE0-4273-87B3-541FAEF9E854@brazee.net> Message-ID: <98A749CA-6FAB-4A10-9C28-F03BD5EB33BE@brazee.net> > On Oct 8, 2021, at 2:16 PM, Matthew George wrote: > > The really, really rich don't go in for flash, if only because they're > trying to distinguish themselves along class lines, and flash is what most > people would go for. They tend to go for items that are visibly > high-quality, but modestly decorated. > > There are other ways of showing off one's supposed discernment. It's > well-demonstrated that very few people have sufficiently sensitive senses > of taste and smell to detect the differences that it's claimed distinguish > different varieties of wine; it's also well-demonstrated that the bottle in > which wine is presented tends to determine how that wine is perceived. > Conformity to expectation is a way of establishing status that everyone > tends to use, regardless of what specific expectations are involved. One aspect of showing off is who one wants to show off too. It generally is one?s peers. For old money people, their peers are old money people. It reminds me a bit about an older NFL running back who makes a touchdown and ?Acts like he?s been there before?. Old money has different show-off things. I remember reading about someone who wanted to be accepted by old money who decided to collect Turkish calligraphy. He basically created an industry collecting it, as it worked very well with that crowd. From jelbelser at comcast.net Sat Oct 9 01:27:21 2021 From: jelbelser at comcast.net (Jelbelser) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 19:27:21 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 - magic devices In-Reply-To: <98A749CA-6FAB-4A10-9C28-F03BD5EB33BE@brazee.net> References: <9987C1FD-8195-47F0-8BB8-F7A053094B60@brazee.net> <492C30BD-ACE0-4273-87B3-541FAEF9E854@brazee.net> <98A749CA-6FAB-4A10-9C28-F03BD5EB33BE@brazee.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 8, 2021, at 5:48 PM, brazee wrote: > >> On Oct 8, 2021, at 2:16 PM, Matthew George wrote: >> >> The really, really rich don't go in for flash, if only because they're >> trying to distinguish themselves along class lines, and flash is what most >> people would go for. They tend to go for items that are visibly >> high-quality, but modestly decorated. >> > > One aspect of showing off is who one wants to show off too. > > It generally is one?s peers. For old money people, their peers are old money people. My father, who was what the investment industry calls ?a high net worth individual? used to tell me to aim for ?good enough? for most purchases, but to spend whatever it takes to get the very best for education and medical care. Janet in TN From mark at allums.email Sat Oct 9 01:36:39 2021 From: mark at allums.email (Mark Allums) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 19:36:39 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OF: Australian SF In-Reply-To: References: <1A82C3AC-42FF-42B5-BAD0-861D8E293A44@brazee.net> Message-ID: <3d9219ca-6b07-426e-ae36-e8afd7489de1@allums.email> A relatively new author: Claire Coleman. Her Debut: Terra Nullius [sic]. SF, although it's not a spoiler to say it doesn't start that way. Was a monthly pick on the Sword and Laser podcast. Mark A. On 10/8/2021 11:57 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 18:39:52 -0600, brazee wrote: > >> >> >>> On Oct 7, 2021, at 6:31 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: >>> >>> I read the book "On The Beach" and saw the movie. The main character was >>> the captain of the last surviving nuclear submarine his crew and the people >>> of Australia. The most poignant scene is when Moira stands on the bluff >>> looking over the sea as the submarine and her crew dives for the last time. >>> It definitely was not a cheerful ending. >> >> I saw the movie when it came out, and remembered images of the lines & of San Francisco and the music. I didn?t read it until last year. > > "This is the way the world ends; not with a bang, but with a whimper." > -- > -The Devil's Dictionary, 1911 > critic, n. A person who boasts himself hard to please because > nobody tries to please him. (Ambrose Bierce) > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 04:20:25 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 22:20:25 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: <73696657-7861-40C6-B5BC-CB1F464154DD@hamilton.edu> References: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4.ref@aol.com> <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4@aol.com> <1E67CE9B-BBFD-4C14-A9CC-123FBC0560C1@brazee.net> <73696657-7861-40C6-B5BC-CB1F464154DD@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: "Kingfisher" sounds interesting. A lawyer priest of a Rat god? A magic sword with a bladder? I gotta check that out. On Thu, Oct 7, 2021, 7:46 PM Kathy C. wrote: > On Oct 7, 2021, at 10:43 AM, brazee wrote: > > > > The tradition of magic swords is huge. > > I?m currently reading (well, listening to) T. Kingfisher?s Swordheart, in > which one of the main characters IS a magic sword. Well, a warrior who has > been put into a magic sword, from which he emerges when it?s drawn ? quite > like a genie. Except that now the widow who wields him and the > lawyer-priest of the Rat God who is traveling with them are > enthusiastically trying to figure out exactly how the magic works, and > making him experiment with things like, if he goes into the sword needing > to piss, does he still need to piss when he comes out again. > > Highly recommend. > > Katherine > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 04:35:12 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 22:35:12 -0500 Subject: [LMB] ot: scary movies In-Reply-To: References: <46c5b6db-6c4a-5eac-9574-98845398cad9@mindspring.com> Message-ID: God I remember that show. Christopher Loyd can deffinaty play demented characters. On Fri, Oct 8, 2021, 10:28 AM Eric Oppen wrote: > A human who was injured or unconscious might not be able to get away. And > you never have a giant-sized can of Raid when you need one, at least in my > experience. > > On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 10:23 AM Matthew George wrote: > > > Something I always thought was a movie, but a search now informs me was a > > TV episode: Amazing Stories, "Go to the Head of the Class". > > > > I stumbled across it while channel-surfing as a child. High-school > > students playing around with a grimoire end up killing their hated > > principal with black magic. To undo their spell, they conduct a > > resurrection ritual, but accidentally tear the head off the photo they > use > > as the target object. The ritual works! Sort of. > > > > The body chasing the students through the darkened house, while the head > > laughs and laughs and laughs... really messed me up. I know it's corny, > I > > know it's stupid, but... [shudders] > > > > Ooh, there's a trailer! > > https://www.imdb.com/video/vi3102719257/?ref_=tt_vi_i_1 > > > > Matt G. > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 04:39:01 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 22:39:01 -0500 Subject: [LMB] ot: scary movies In-Reply-To: References: <46c5b6db-6c4a-5eac-9574-98845398cad9@mindspring.com> Message-ID: South Carolina has the dreaded fire ants. Very painful bites. On Fri, Oct 8, 2021, 10:35 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > God I remember that show. Christopher Loyd can deffinaty play demented > characters. > > On Fri, Oct 8, 2021, 10:28 AM Eric Oppen wrote: > >> A human who was injured or unconscious might not be able to get away. And >> you never have a giant-sized can of Raid when you need one, at least in my >> experience. >> >> On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 10:23 AM Matthew George >> wrote: >> >> > Something I always thought was a movie, but a search now informs me was >> a >> > TV episode: Amazing Stories, "Go to the Head of the Class". >> > >> > I stumbled across it while channel-surfing as a child. High-school >> > students playing around with a grimoire end up killing their hated >> > principal with black magic. To undo their spell, they conduct a >> > resurrection ritual, but accidentally tear the head off the photo they >> use >> > as the target object. The ritual works! Sort of. >> > >> > The body chasing the students through the darkened house, while the head >> > laughs and laughs and laughs... really messed me up. I know it's >> corny, I >> > know it's stupid, but... [shudders] >> > >> > Ooh, there's a trailer! >> > https://www.imdb.com/video/vi3102719257/?ref_=tt_vi_i_1 >> > >> > Matt G. >> > -- >> > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com >> > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> > >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 04:47:32 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 22:47:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Rowling In-Reply-To: References: <31iulgpq7ou416kefarq9f12kag627p382@4ax.com> Message-ID: Of course Harry had a bit of Voldemort in him which was why he could speak to snakes. Of course it's been about 20 years since I last read the book. On Fri, Oct 8, 2021, 2:34 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > I?d likely go with Ravenclaw. Concentrate on educating those who can use > it best. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Marc Wilson > Sent: Friday, October 8, 2021 10:59:25 AM > To: LMB > Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Rowling > > On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 17:38:31 -0500, Raymond Collins > wrote: > > >Well the sorting hat wanted Harry to be a Slytherin but Harry refused. > > Not how I remember it; he stressed "not Slytherin" and the hat said "Are > you sure?" > -- > -The Devil's Dictionary, 1911 > critic, n. A person who boasts himself hard to please because > nobody tries to please him. (Ambrose Bierce) > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cd7d1d79091d24c7bcdd008d98a7d00c9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637693091756521075%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=LOmSn7BvJe8CCpfWOskR2nuRUshZvcqaGYT%2FxLADMQQ%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From baur at chello.at Sat Oct 9 06:47:50 2021 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 07:47:50 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4.ref@aol.com> <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4@aol.com> <1E67CE9B-BBFD-4C14-A9CC-123FBC0560C1@brazee.net> <73696657-7861-40C6-B5BC-CB1F464154DD@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: <42770969-8659-b799-6764-653fc62aaed2@chello.at> if we are talking about magical swords in modern fantasy literature Mercedes Lackey's Need https://valdemar.fandom.com/wiki/Need_(sword) servus markus Am 09.10.2021 um 05:20 schrieb Raymond Collins: > "Kingfisher" sounds interesting. A lawyer priest of a Rat god? A magic > sword with a bladder? I gotta check that out. > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2021, 7:46 PM Kathy C. wrote: > >> On Oct 7, 2021, at 10:43 AM, brazee wrote: >>> >>> The tradition of magic swords is huge. >> >> I?m currently reading (well, listening to) T. Kingfisher?s Swordheart, in >> which one of the main characters IS a magic sword. Well, a warrior who has >> been put into a magic sword, from which he emerges when it?s drawn ? quite >> like a genie. Except that now the widow who wields him and the >> lawyer-priest of the Rat God who is traveling with them are >> enthusiastically trying to figure out exactly how the magic works, and >> making him experiment with things like, if he goes into the sword needing >> to piss, does he still need to piss when he comes out again. >> >> Highly recommend. >> >> Katherine >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> From proto at panix.com Sat Oct 9 08:41:57 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 03:41:57 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Education, was Spirit Ring - Fathers & Daughters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <38DB6010-D240-497A-AACB-379C228336F7@panix.com> > On Sep 8, 2021, at 3:02 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > We're only a few generations away from times when literacy wasn't > universal. Ah, in America there are people who are functionally illiterate to the point they can?t read the labels in a grocery store, (not the ingredients, but the label telling what the product is purported to be). ? Sig of no sig. From egern at protonmail.com Sat Oct 9 11:24:30 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 10:24:30 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Neil Gaiman question, What movie terrorized you? In-Reply-To: References: <403d02bb-3986-b3d1-65b8-ce47a9901554.ref@aol.com> <403d02bb-3986-b3d1-65b8-ce47a9901554@aol.com> Message-ID: Day of the Triffits. And I agree on Dr Strangelove! T Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Thursday, October 7th, 2021 at 2:00 AM, wrote: > On Wed, 6 Oct 2021, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > The other night I was listening to NPR and a story came about a couple who > > > > bought a house in Maryland and found out it belonged to family who's son > > > > had been possessed by a demon. They took the kid to St. Louis where he was > > > > exorcised. The became the basis for "The Exorcist" the new home owner knew > > > > what his Halloween theme would be. > > I heard an interview with the homeowner on "As It Happens" on CBC: > > https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-the-tuesday-edition-1.6200205/a-couple-bought-their-dream-home-then-they-learned-it-was-the-exorcist-house-1.6200208 > > > Anyway the discussion went to what movie terrorized you? For him it was > > > > "Night of the Comet" > > > > For me it was, "Planet of the Vampires" in my defense is was ten years old > > > > at the time. > > For me it was When the Wind Blows and If You Love This Planet. For my > > husband, it was Doctor Strangelove. You may detect a theme. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Alayne McGregor > > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > > What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We > > need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the > > institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate > > and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to egern at protonmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From egern at protonmail.com Sat Oct 9 11:40:58 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 10:40:58 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Monday, October 4th, 2021 at 1:29 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: > Not to mention J K Rowling. Rowling's books are wonderful. I think all of them are well written, but she kept getting better as she changed from mostly young persons and kids to adult books. She grasps the nettle in many lives of both kids and adults. T From egern at protonmail.com Sat Oct 9 11:50:47 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 10:50:47 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein Message-ID: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? > > On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 8:48 PM brazee howard at brazee.net wrote: > > > > On Oct 3, 2021, at 7:28 PM, Eric Oppen ravenclaweric at gmail.com wrote: > > > > True. And it?s a much, much darker world than I want kids to read about. > > > > But she couldn?t even build a rational sport. Some kids live in a dark world, and I think lots of orphans felt something open up for them in their loneliness. That, and lots of other problems are out in the open. As for Quidditch, it is not meant to be 'rational', for god's sake, you might as well complain that a fairy tale is not realistic. Her world has many inconsistencies in it, true, but that is unimportant for the stories. You must criticize a book on its own terms, on what it is trying to do. T From egern at protonmail.com Sat Oct 9 12:07:48 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 11:07:48 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <0C669C72-DF9A-4789-9229-A56FD0CACEFA@brazee.net> Message-ID: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Thursday, October 7th, 2021 at 5:57 PM, dbernat wrote: > > How many writers had the familiarity with a non-US culture necessary to > > write a believable story set outside the United States? At a guess, all non American sci fi writers. There are quite a few Danish ones, and I have heard about - though not read - African sci fi. Quite a number of British ones.Canadian. T From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 9 12:16:33 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 11:16:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness Message-ID: "Change blindness" is often invoked in paranormal works to explain why people don't notice weird stuff around them. In the webcomic ?El Goonish Shive? a shape-shifter demonstrates it by repeatedly changing her hair colour when people look away, and when they look back they don't realise she was a different colour before. But I wasn't sure it was real until it happened to me. Last Spring we ordered a load of firewood that came in a couple of big pallet crates, and the owner collected one of the empty crates but took his time coming back for the other. So I heaved it to one side of the carport and worked round it. Last week we were working out how much wood we needed for this Winter, and I couldn't remember if those crates had been one cubic metre or one and a half, and I reflected that I could measure the one in the carport to find out. After the conversation my mind was still on it when I went down to the car, and I realised with a jolt that the crate wasn't there. When I ran through my memory I realised it had been gone for many weeks. The owner must have come for it when I was out, and I simply didn't notice. All that time I'd actually been turning my car around in the space the crate had previously cluttered up, and not consciously registered the change until I had a reason to look for it. So yes, change blindness is real, and it can happen to anyone. (Or maybe anyone. When I told my wife, she said ?Of course, I saw it had gone, I thought you had too.? Is change blindness a man thing, or is she just smarter than me?) Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com/) Secure Email. From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 9 12:26:09 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 11:26:09 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Saturday, October 2nd, 2021 at 17:02, Matthew George wrote: > There are lots of characters that Heinlein clearly based on > > himself, and even used as bullhorns for his opinions, but it doesn't follow > > that everything about those characters is a reflection of him. Jubal Harshaw is a shameless wish-fulfilment author insertion, but that's something authors can do for fun, and no harm in it if it doesn't mess up the plot. In the same way that Agatha Christie must have enjoyed putting herself in her later books as Ariadne Oliver. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 9 12:38:29 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 11:38:29 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Saturday, October 2nd, 2021 at 21:34, Matthew George wrote: > The movie is a parody of what thoughtless people think the novel is, and > > really has nothing to do with the novel. It amuses me greatly that gun-worshipping soldier fetishists love the movie of "Starship Troopers" without ever noticing that it's a wicked parody of a fascist state. (And of the Iraq war, but the references are subtle enough to be missed these days.) It reminds me of the scene in "Iron Sky" where the Nazis on the moon admire a clip from Chaplin's "Great Dictator," with no idea that he's making fun of Hitler. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 9 12:52:22 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 11:52:22 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sunday, October 3rd, 2021 at 14:21, Fred wrote: Lester delRey (or maybe not) commented that whenHeinlein was great > > when under tight editorial control (e.g., the "Boys" books, and some other > > early works), but when let free tended to "sprawl" badly. I hadn't > > previously thought of that as a description, but it seems to fit. I reference him when the topic of second draft editing comes up. According to his letters, his normal practice at first was to write everything that came into his head and then throw out about half of it. But he only did this because the market demanded strict word counts in those days, and he hated it. Once he was a big enough name that editors couldn't dictate to him, he seems to have just published his first drafts, with regretable results. I have a copy of the original draft of "Stranger in a Strange Land," and I reckon that most of what he cut from the published text deserved to go. The example that sticks in my mind is that when he introduces the awful Alice Douglas, the UN leader's wife, he discourses for a page and a half on why she is the way she is because society won't allow a woman into a position of power. All very wise, but a rambling disquisition from the story. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 9 12:56:21 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 11:56:21 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <0C669C72-DF9A-4789-9229-A56FD0CACEFA@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Saturday, October 9th, 2021 at 13:07, tidsel via Lois-Bujold wrote: > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > > ??????? Original Message ??????? > > On Thursday, October 7th, 2021 at 5:57 PM, dbernat dbernat at gol.com wrote: > > > How many writers had the familiarity with a non-US culture necessary to > > > > write a believable story set outside the United States? > > At a guess, all non American sci fi writers. There are quite a few Danish ones, and I have heard about - though not read - African sci fi. > > Quite a number of British ones.Canadian. > Back in the day, many non-US SF writers had to do their best to write American characters in American settings because that was where the market was. Hence perhaps the previous poster's mistake. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From howard at brazee.net Sat Oct 9 13:34:12 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 06:34:12 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 9, 2021, at 4:50 AM, tidsel via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > As for Quidditch, it is not meant to be 'rational', for god's sake, you might as well complain that a fairy tale is not realistic. It wouldn?t have been hard to make it rational and fit what she was trying to do. She was lazy. From dbernat at gol.com Sat Oct 9 14:08:04 2021 From: dbernat at gol.com (dbernat) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 22:08:04 +0900 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <0C669C72-DF9A-4789-9229-A56FD0CACEFA@brazee.net> Message-ID: <51438824e0c73ca6e7762ac98e2398c8@gol.com> Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold wrote: > Back in the day, many non-US SF writers had to do their best to write > American characters in American settings because that was where the > market was. Hence perhaps the previous poster's mistake. It's easy to set a story in one's own culture. It's much harder to set a story in a culture known only from reading books on that culture. Which is, I suppose, why so much fiction on Japan and China* is such a dreary mess. *I thought the military adventure set in China that had the male hero constantly wearing a woman's dress during combat to be particularly risible. From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 9 15:23:20 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 14:23:20 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <-0zX6m6ST0tq4fUnYhsLVHSm5z3BsSl3wujXJN6rwyHXZvk86WyHdO1noHGZOAXf6P1cpwARo7SdYhb_7FRSE1UIDihRC90EbLHklumZhRM=@protonmail.com> On Sunday, October 3rd, 2021 at 04:34, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Alayne said: > > I think he did better than most male authors of that era (SF and non-SF). > > Which is probably why I have read very little SF of that era - or at least, > > the books I read were either by the female authors or the up-and-coming > > writers of a new generation. > It was actually getting better. When I read Campbell's classic "The Black Star Passes" (1930), by about a quarter of the way through I was thinking there was something odd about it that I couldn't put my finger on. When I realised what it was I checked, and yes, there are virtually no female characters in the whole book. Never mind no colleagues or girlfriends, there are no mothers, no sisters, not so much as a cleaning lady or typist. There is one woman mentioned, but not named, among the victims of the baddie in Book 1, and unless I missed another, that's it. It's ironic that this is sometimes called "Golden Age" SF, because the Golden Age of the Classical Greeks was imagined as a time when the human race consisted only of men doing jolly boys' stuff, before the gods became jealous of their happiness and created women to spoil it. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From egern at protonmail.com Sat Oct 9 15:45:10 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 14:45:10 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Saturday, October 9th, 2021 at 2:34 PM, brazee wrote: > > On Oct 9, 2021, at 4:50 AM, tidsel via Lois-Bujold lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk wrote: > > > > As for Quidditch, it is not meant to be 'rational', for god's sake, you might as well complain that a fairy tale is not realistic. > > It wouldn?t have been hard to make it rational and fit what she was trying to do. She was lazy. It is called fantasy. And the kids LOVE it. T From howard at brazee.net Sat Oct 9 15:47:08 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 08:47:08 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62881C5F-7BAA-4141-A608-6EBD765EAFCF@brazee.net> > On Oct 9, 2021, at 8:45 AM, tidsel via Lois-Bujold wrote: > >>> As for Quidditch, it is not meant to be 'rational', for god's sake, you might as well complain that a fairy tale is not realistic. >> >> It wouldn?t have been hard to make it rational and fit what she was trying to do. She was lazy. > > It is called fantasy. And the kids LOVE it. It would be fantasy if she fixed the game rules, and the kids would *still* love it. From kawyle at att.net Sat Oct 9 15:51:02 2021 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 14:51:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <62881C5F-7BAA-4141-A608-6EBD765EAFCF@brazee.net> References: <62881C5F-7BAA-4141-A608-6EBD765EAFCF@brazee.net> Message-ID: <504914469.785886.1633791062291@mail.yahoo.com> I agree. "Fantasy" isn't an excuse for sloppy drafting, inconsistencies, and other such flaws. A fantasy world doesn't have to be based on scientific laws or extrapolations therefrom, but it's not a narrative free-for-all -- unless it's tongue-in-cheek in a particular way that the Harry Potter books aren't. Karen A. Wyle On Saturday, October 9, 2021, 10:47:24 AM EDT, brazee wrote: > On Oct 9, 2021, at 8:45 AM, tidsel via Lois-Bujold wrote: > >>> As for Quidditch, it is not meant to be 'rational', for god's sake, you might as well complain that a fairy tale is not realistic. >> >> It wouldn?t have been hard to make it rational and fit what she was trying to do. She was lazy. > > It is called fantasy. And the kids LOVE it. It would be fantasy if she fixed the game rules, and the kids would *still* love it. From proto at panix.com Sat Oct 9 16:14:38 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 11:14:38 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3BE9AD70-E1C4-47E9-9D42-E637221D9065@panix.com> > On Oct 9, 2021, at 6:50 AM, tidsel via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > As for Quidditch, it is not meant to be 'rational', for god's sake, you might as well complain that a fairy tale is not realistic. > Her world has many inconsistencies in it, true, but that is unimportant for the stories. > You must criticize a book on its own terms, on what it is trying to do. > T Two criteria, ?Did the author achieve his goals?? and ?Was what the author set out to do worthwhile??. ? In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over." --tweet by British columnist, Dan Hodges, June 15, 2015? From proto at panix.com Sat Oct 9 16:19:54 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 11:19:54 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 9, 2021, at 7:16 AM, Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > "Change blindness" is often invoked in paranormal works to explain why people don't notice weird stuff around them. In the webcomic ?El Goonish Shive? a shape-shifter demonstrates it by repeatedly changing her hair colour when people look away, and when they look back they don?t realise she was a different colour before. This has been documented in videos. They used different people in very short time differences and the subject didn?t seem to notice the person they were talking to had changed. When you are getting directions do you really care about from whom? ? (You shall know the truth. my addition); The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret. ? Terry Pratchett, The Truth From proto at panix.com Sat Oct 9 16:26:06 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 11:26:06 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 9, 2021, at 10:45 AM, tidsel via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > It is called fantasy. And the kids LOVE it. > T Better to call it ?trfancy? a swear word especially in critiques of poetry. ? ?Of all the means to insure happiness throughout the whole life, by far the most important is the acquisition of friends.? ~Epicurus From proto at panix.com Sat Oct 9 16:29:03 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 11:29:03 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E65BA3F-4694-493E-9908-22928E7AC191@panix.com> s/trfancy/fancy/ > On Oct 9, 2021, at 11:26 AM, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > > >> On Oct 9, 2021, at 10:45 AM, tidsel via Lois-Bujold > wrote: >> >> It is called fantasy. And the kids LOVE it. >> T > > > Better to call it ?trfancy? a swear word especially in critiques of poetry. > ? > ?Of all the means to insure happiness throughout the whole life, by far the most important is the acquisition of friends.? > ~Epicurus > ? Of course our planet has its mood swings ? it is, after all, bipolar. From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Sat Oct 9 16:40:45 2021 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 08:40:45 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: <-0zX6m6ST0tq4fUnYhsLVHSm5z3BsSl3wujXJN6rwyHXZvk86WyHdO1noHGZOAXf6P1cpwARo7SdYhb_7FRSE1UIDihRC90EbLHklumZhRM=@protonmail.com> References: <-0zX6m6ST0tq4fUnYhsLVHSm5z3BsSl3wujXJN6rwyHXZvk86WyHdO1noHGZOAXf6P1cpwARo7SdYhb_7FRSE1UIDihRC90EbLHklumZhRM=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <2B0FCF0C-28AA-4020-82D2-4DD3D582E2BB@comcast.net> > On Oct 9, 2021, at 7:23 AM, Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > > On Sunday, October 3rd, 2021 at 04:34, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > >> Alayne said: > >>> I think he did better than most male authors of that era (SF and non-SF). >> >> Which is probably why I have read very little SF of that era - or at least, >> >> the books I read were either by the female authors or the up-and-coming >> >> writers of a new generation. >> > > It was actually getting better. When I read Campbell's classic "The Black Star Passes" (1930), by about a quarter of the way through I was thinking there was something odd about it that I couldn't put my finger on. When I realised what it was I checked, and yes, there are virtually no female characters in the whole book. > > Never mind no colleagues or girlfriends, there are no mothers, no sisters, not so much as a cleaning lady or typist. There is one woman mentioned, but not named, among the victims of the baddie in Book 1, and unless I missed another, that's it. > > It's ironic that this is sometimes called "Golden Age" SF, because the Golden Age of the Classical Greeks was imagined as a time when the human race consisted only of men doing jolly boys' stuff, before the gods became jealous of their happiness and created women to spoil it. > The Golden Age was 1939-1942 (or so, a bunch of authors were busy elsewhere for several years) and there were plenty of women around (some of them were protagonists). The early 1930s is sometimes referred to as the Super science period. While the various super science epics written by Campbell didn'tt have female characters, that wasn?t generally true for other authors (I will admit that there were enough scientist?s daughters for it to become a cliche). "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com From proto at panix.com Sat Oct 9 17:17:30 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 12:17:30 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: <2B0FCF0C-28AA-4020-82D2-4DD3D582E2BB@comcast.net> References: <-0zX6m6ST0tq4fUnYhsLVHSm5z3BsSl3wujXJN6rwyHXZvk86WyHdO1noHGZOAXf6P1cpwARo7SdYhb_7FRSE1UIDihRC90EbLHklumZhRM=@protonmail.com> <2B0FCF0C-28AA-4020-82D2-4DD3D582E2BB@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 9, 2021, at 11:40 AM, Robert Woodward wrote: > > he Golden Age was 1939-1942 (or so, a bunch of authors were busy elsewhere for several years) and there were plenty of women around (some of them were protagonists). The early 1930s is sometimes referred to as the Super science period. While the various super science epics written by Campbell didn?tt have female characters, that wasn?t generally true for other authors (I will admit that there were enough scientist?s daughters for it to become a cliche). And in _The Spirit Ring_ we have the magician?s daughter. ? A unix salesperson, Lenore Loved her job, but loved the beach more. She devised such a way to combine work and play: She sells C-shells by the seashore. From kcollett at hamilton.edu Sat Oct 9 18:07:54 2021 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Kathy Collett) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 13:07:54 -0400 Subject: [LMB] back to Spirit Ring; was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <-0zX6m6ST0tq4fUnYhsLVHSm5z3BsSl3wujXJN6rwyHXZvk86WyHdO1noHGZOAXf6P1cpwARo7SdYhb_7FRSE1UIDihRC90EbLHklumZhRM=@protonmail.com> <2B0FCF0C-28AA-4020-82D2-4DD3D582E2BB@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1D0AF104-D33C-4746-8E81-19350D853CB9@hamilton.edu> On Oct 9, 2021, at 12:17 PM, WalterStuartBushell , veering back on-topic, wrote: > > And in _The Spirit Ring_ we have the magician?s daughter. That is true, and it would be equally true to say we have the sorcerer?s apprentice. But as the Golden Age of Science Fiction characters being talked about were mostly minor characters, and Fiametta is the protagonist, it?s more that one of the characters is the magician?s or apprentice's father. Katherine From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 9 18:38:37 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 17:38:37 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <-0zX6m6ST0tq4fUnYhsLVHSm5z3BsSl3wujXJN6rwyHXZvk86WyHdO1noHGZOAXf6P1cpwARo7SdYhb_7FRSE1UIDihRC90EbLHklumZhRM=@protonmail.com> <2B0FCF0C-28AA-4020-82D2-4DD3D582E2BB@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Saturday, October 9th, 2021 at 18:17, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > On Oct 9, 2021, at 11:40 AM, Robert Woodward Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net wrote: >>(I will admit that there were enough scientist?s daughters for it to become a cliche). > > And in The Spirit Ring we have the magician?s daughter. > Shakespeare's "Tempest" is often credited as the first appearance of the Mad Scientist's Beautiful Daughter. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Sat Oct 9 19:35:38 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 19:35:38 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 - magic devices In-Reply-To: References: <9987C1FD-8195-47F0-8BB8-F7A053094B60@brazee.net> <492C30BD-ACE0-4273-87B3-541FAEF9E854@brazee.net> Message-ID: <26o3mg9mgkdpn87o3qcgtfo1kcno1credp@4ax.com> On Fri, 8 Oct 2021 14:49:55 -0500, Louann Miller wrote: >On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 1:21 PM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < >lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > >> On 08/10/2021 16:15, Matthew George wrote: >> > Practical rich people go for high-quality but normal stuff, rather than >> > solid gold toilets and diamond-encrusted socks. >> >> Bill Gates, far richer than any of the ex presidents was famously >> described as >> >> "Dresses like he owns a shoe store". >> > >Gates has at least his share of character flaws, but he knows better than >to gauge his self-worth by the amount of gold plated stuff he owns. Don't forget Gates is "old money". Not on the same scale, but he wasn't born poor, and so doesn't act nouveau riche. -- Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color. - Don Hirschberg From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Sat Oct 9 19:37:49 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 19:37:49 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 - magic devices In-Reply-To: <98A749CA-6FAB-4A10-9C28-F03BD5EB33BE@brazee.net> References: <492C30BD-ACE0-4273-87B3-541FAEF9E854@brazee.net> <98A749CA-6FAB-4A10-9C28-F03BD5EB33BE@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2021 16:48:44 -0600, brazee wrote: > >One aspect of showing off is who one wants to show off too. > >It generally is one?s peers. For old money people, their peers are old money people. A Tory grandee once said disparagingly of a fellow politician: "Damn fellow buys his own furniture". Because old-money people inherit furniture, possibly several centuries old and worth more than many houses. And on the whole, they're not fixated on everything matching, either. -- Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color. - Don Hirschberg From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Sat Oct 9 19:44:37 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 19:44:37 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <504914469.785886.1633791062291@mail.yahoo.com> References: <62881C5F-7BAA-4141-A608-6EBD765EAFCF@brazee.net> <504914469.785886.1633791062291@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5ko3mgll2ciforevggpnanr0usr8t14q7s@4ax.com> On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 14:51:02 +0000 (UTC), "Karen A. Wyle" wrote: > I agree. "Fantasy" isn't an excuse for sloppy drafting, inconsistencies, and other such flaws. A fantasy world doesn't have to be based on scientific laws or extrapolations therefrom, but it's not a narrative free-for-all -- unless it's tongue-in-cheek in a particular way that the Harry Potter books aren't. >Karen A. Wyle > On Saturday, October 9, 2021, 10:47:24 AM EDT, brazee wrote: > >> On Oct 9, 2021, at 8:45 AM, tidsel via Lois-Bujold wrote: >> >>>> As for Quidditch, it is not meant to be 'rational', for god's sake, you might as well complain that a fairy tale is not realistic. >>> >>> It wouldn?t have been hard to make it rational and fit what she was trying to do. She was lazy. >> >> It is called fantasy. And the kids LOVE it. > >It would be fantasy if she fixed the game rules, and the kids would *still* love it. The snitch is needed later in the story arc, so it had to exist. The rules could have been marginally more sensible, though - e.g. when the snitch is caught, the match is over, without an effect on the score. That would have made the seekers' roles more strategic - the side currently losing would be keen to block the winning side's seeker, rather than catch it themselves. -- Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color. - Don Hirschberg From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Sat Oct 9 19:47:02 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 19:47:02 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 11:19:54 -0400, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > >> On Oct 9, 2021, at 7:16 AM, Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold wrote: >> >> "Change blindness" is often invoked in paranormal works to explain why people don't notice weird stuff around them. In the webcomic ?El Goonish Shive? a shape-shifter demonstrates it by repeatedly changing her hair colour when people look away, and when they look back they don?t realise she was a different colour before. > >This has been documented in videos. They used different people in very short time differences and the subject >didn?t seem to notice the person they were talking to had changed. > >When you are getting directions do you really care about from whom? There's a famous video where people are asked to study a basketball game, and only around 5% of test subjects recall that a man in a gorilla suit walks across the court. I *do* hope my liberty never depends on the observation skills of the average eyewitness. -- "Fine" doesn't mean fine. The scale goes: "Great, good, OK, not OK, I hate you, Fine." - Two Broke Girls From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sat Oct 9 20:48:35 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 15:48:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <5ko3mgll2ciforevggpnanr0usr8t14q7s@4ax.com> References: <62881C5F-7BAA-4141-A608-6EBD765EAFCF@brazee.net> <504914469.785886.1633791062291@mail.yahoo.com> <5ko3mgll2ciforevggpnanr0usr8t14q7s@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Oct 2021, Marc Wilson wrote: > The snitch is needed later in the story arc, so it had to exist. The > rules could have been marginally more sensible, though - e.g. when the > snitch is caught, the match is over, without an effect on the score. > > That would have made the seekers' roles more strategic - the side > currently losing would be keen to block the winning side's seeker, > rather than catch it themselves. I like Marc's suggestion here - I think it would have made the game more interesting. To me, the purpose of Quidditch was a) to give Harry an activity he could excel at that wasn't in the schoolroom (which then avoided him competing directly with Hermione and also allowed him to be the target of Snape without totally destroying his amour-propre) b) to create a game that depended most of all on exceptional flying skills. Secondarily it's a team sport with strategy, but what the spectators most thrill to are the flying stunts. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From lmb at matija.com Sat Oct 9 21:04:45 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 21:04:45 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <5ko3mgll2ciforevggpnanr0usr8t14q7s@4ax.com> References: <62881C5F-7BAA-4141-A608-6EBD765EAFCF@brazee.net> <504914469.785886.1633791062291@mail.yahoo.com> <5ko3mgll2ciforevggpnanr0usr8t14q7s@4ax.com> Message-ID: <80d803c6-eca2-ecb7-8c63-4520fe7de653@matija.com> On 09/10/2021 19:44, Marc Wilson wrote: > The snitch is needed later in the story arc, so it had to exist. The > rules could have been marginally more sensible, though - e.g. when the > snitch is caught, the match is over, without an effect on the score. > > That would have made the seekers' roles more strategic - the side > currently losing would be keen to block the winning side's seeker, > rather than catch it themselves. Oooh, I like that idea. Simple and elegant and seamless. The other thing that annoyed me was the house scores. I have this impression that in each year, Gryffindor would be lagging behind other houses, and then they would get awarded just enough points to win for some spurious, ad-hoc reason. Even though I was rooting for Harry's house, it offended my sense of fairness. From pouncer at aol.com Sat Oct 9 22:35:10 2021 From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 16:35:10 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Wealthy peoples' personal property and the personality of things References: <4079c80c-bedd-2362-27ea-5795b5c19ae3.ref@aol.com> Message-ID: <4079c80c-bedd-2362-27ea-5795b5c19ae3@aol.com> Marc Wilson: >A Tory grandee once said disparagingly of a fellow politician: "Damn >fellow buys his own furniture". Because old-money people inherit >furniture, possibly several centuries old and worth more than many >houses. Sybil Ramkin-Vimes, for instance. Cue the lecture on Vimes's boots. >And on the whole, they're not fixated on everything matching, >either. Having all one's silverware display the same monogram betrays a recent purchase, a very small guest list, or a marriage to a person who brought no silver of his/her own into the family. Vorkosigan's Attic is no doubt full of stuff like the good quality boots Vimes envisions -- not unlike the saddle Miles actually shows Ekaterin. Piotr may have riding gear, including boots, that still have good wear in them, but of no immediate use. We know of furniture, such as Kou's Couch. The large limo-like family ground-car features in the timeline ranging from _Barrayar_ to at least _ _A Civil Campaign_ ... and though I don't remember exactly it wouldn't surprise me to be reminded of a later appearance. Very good quality stuff of very long personal use tends to pick up an a -- I dunno what to call it, exactly "imprint", maybe? -- of the person using/wearing/carrying it. Vimes's boots take the shape of his feet. My grandfather's Stickley rocking chair bears the scars, and so reveals his habit, of falling asleep in it while not-quite-finishing a cigarette. The blade of a knife shows the skill of the person sharpening it. Bothari's for good instance; the scratched up surface behind the edge is a bad example for mine. Any favorite and often consulted book will have tears in the jacket or wear on the binding -- a beloved COOKBOOK may have stains on the pages of the recipes best-enjoyed by both the cook and the diners. A masskrug from Octoberfest '89, the year the Iron Curtain tore, still holds beer (or what passes for beer in America) even with a chip in the rim. It doesn't seem much of a stretch to me to imagine the spirits of a comrade or grandparent warming my own when I sit in THAT chair or sip from THAT mug or consult THAT page before stirring up a batch of cookies. Not that anyone's ghost is bound to that burn or that stain or chip. But there, for me at least, all the same. -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com From wawenri at msn.com Sat Oct 9 22:52:16 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 21:52:16 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: <51438824e0c73ca6e7762ac98e2398c8@gol.com> References: <0C669C72-DF9A-4789-9229-A56FD0CACEFA@brazee.net> <51438824e0c73ca6e7762ac98e2398c8@gol.com> Message-ID: I remember seeing a documentary about the arts on China. The big new play was titled, ?Red guards ride to Beijing to see Chairman Mao.? William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of dbernat Sent: Saturday, October 9, 2021 7:08:04 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Heinlein Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold wrote: > Back in the day, many non-US SF writers had to do their best to write > American characters in American settings because that was where the > market was. Hence perhaps the previous poster's mistake. It's easy to set a story in one's own culture. It's much harder to set a story in a culture known only from reading books on that culture. Which is, I suppose, why so much fiction on Japan and China* is such a dreary mess. *I thought the military adventure set in China that had the male hero constantly wearing a woman's dress during combat to be particularly risible. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cc4726fbaeb8948c1401108d98b25d8c4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637693816932651944%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=9OSkjdJ1AMhPBPqtIl9VgSh2oOWrOhqSb6UXrVzx4bE%3D&reserved=0 From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 23:08:34 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 17:08:34 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <0C669C72-DF9A-4789-9229-A56FD0CACEFA@brazee.net> <51438824e0c73ca6e7762ac98e2398c8@gol.com> Message-ID: I know what you mean about Japan and China. I used to love James Clavell's novels, but no more. On Sat, Oct 9, 2021, 4:52 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > I remember seeing a documentary about the arts on China. The big new play > was titled, ?Red guards ride to Beijing to see Chairman Mao.? > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > dbernat > Sent: Saturday, October 9, 2021 7:08:04 AM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [LMB] Heinlein > > Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > > Back in the day, many non-US SF writers had to do their best to write > > American characters in American settings because that was where the > > market was. Hence perhaps the previous poster's mistake. > > > It's easy to set a story in one's own culture. > > It's much harder to set a story in a culture known only from reading > books on that culture. > > Which is, I suppose, why so much fiction on Japan and China* is such a > dreary mess. > > *I thought the military adventure set in China that had the male hero > constantly wearing a woman's dress during combat to be particularly > risible. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cc4726fbaeb8948c1401108d98b25d8c4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637693816932651944%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=9OSkjdJ1AMhPBPqtIl9VgSh2oOWrOhqSb6UXrVzx4bE%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From wawenri at msn.com Sat Oct 9 23:26:30 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 22:26:30 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? Message-ID: Has there been any any cloning shown in the nexus except for the Jackson Whole body Leggers (a take on organleggers which is a take on bootleggers). Does anyone think that human cloning is a good idea? I think it?s sickening. We have no way of adjusting length of the tolemers which would be shorter in an adult than in an embryo. Remember, Dolly lived less than half as long as is normal for a sheep of that breed. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From howard at brazee.net Sat Oct 9 23:30:26 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 16:30:26 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 9, 2021, at 4:26 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > Has there been any any cloning shown in the nexus except for the Jackson Whole body Leggers (a take on organleggers which is a take on bootleggers). > Does anyone think that human cloning is a good idea? I think it?s sickening. > We have no way of adjusting length of the tolemers which would be shorter in an adult than in an embryo. Remember, Dolly lived less than half as long as is normal for a sheep of that breed. The process doesn?t sicken me. Identical twins are clones. Lots of our fruits and vegetables are clones. But if it is done for body parts or for narcissistic reasons, I agree with you. From fishman at panix.com Sat Oct 9 23:53:40 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 22:53:40 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" To: "Dendarri List" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 10/9/2021 6:26:30 PM Subject: [LMB] Cloning? >Does anyone think that human cloning is a good idea? I think it?s sickening. I have no moral problem with it. > >We have no way of adjusting length of the tolemers which would be shorter in an adult than in an embryo. Remember, Dolly lived less than half as long as is normal for a sheep of that breed. > >William A Wenrich Dolly was euthanized at six years due to a progressive lung disease that was not related to her cloning. Harvey > From jpolowin at hotmail.com Sun Oct 10 01:12:10 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 00:12:10 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Has there been any any cloning shown in the nexus except for the > Jackson Whole body Leggers (a take on organleggers which is a take on > bootleggers). There was the Durona Group; I don't think that they can be described reasonably as organleggers. brazee wrote: > The process doesn?t sicken me. Identical twins are clones. Lots of > our fruits and vegetables are clones. > > But if it is done for body parts or for narcissistic reasons, I agree > with you. I don't have a problem with cloned *parts* being grown, like the organs described in LMB's books: Miles's new organs, Professora Vorthys's heart, and so on. I'm not even terribly offended by the idea of an acephalic body being grown for organs to be harvested from. I hate the idea of a person being brought to maturity for that purpose with a mind, and then killed. Joel From wawenri at msn.com Sun Oct 10 02:11:55 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 01:11:55 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials Message-ID: I have been watching far too many commercials recently. There is a common item that comes up in many of them. Both the commercials for cancer in post menopausal women and for prostate cancer warn of problems with pregnancy. Since when can people with prostates or are post menopausal get pregnant? William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 02:31:07 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 21:31:07 -0400 Subject: [LMB] back to Spirit Ring; was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <1D0AF104-D33C-4746-8E81-19350D853CB9@hamilton.edu> References: <-0zX6m6ST0tq4fUnYhsLVHSm5z3BsSl3wujXJN6rwyHXZvk86WyHdO1noHGZOAXf6P1cpwARo7SdYhb_7FRSE1UIDihRC90EbLHklumZhRM=@protonmail.com> <2B0FCF0C-28AA-4020-82D2-4DD3D582E2BB@comcast.net> <1D0AF104-D33C-4746-8E81-19350D853CB9@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 1:08 PM Kathy Collett wrote: > On Oct 9, 2021, at 12:17 PM, WalterStuartBushell , > veering back on-topic, wrote: > > > > And in _The Spirit Ring_ we have the magician?s daughter. > > That is true, and it would be equally true to say we have the sorcerer?s > apprentice. But as the Golden Age of Science Fiction characters being > talked about were mostly minor characters, and Fiametta is the protagonist, > it?s more that one of the characters is the magician?s or apprentice's > father. > > Katherine > -- > And one day.... one day Aral VorK will be known mainly for being Miles VorK's father. Oh yes, all manner of hubris. Sylvia, cross-referencing on topic! From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 02:31:45 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 20:31:45 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <80d803c6-eca2-ecb7-8c63-4520fe7de653@matija.com> References: <62881C5F-7BAA-4141-A608-6EBD765EAFCF@brazee.net> <504914469.785886.1633791062291@mail.yahoo.com> <5ko3mgll2ciforevggpnanr0usr8t14q7s@4ax.com> <80d803c6-eca2-ecb7-8c63-4520fe7de653@matija.com> Message-ID: Word of God has it that before Harry came, Slytherin had won the House Cup for several years running. I agree, that last-minute award of points struck me as unfair, not to mention unkind to the Slytherins. Jerks and pureblood bigots a lot of them may well be, but they deserve fair treatment. On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 3:04 PM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On 09/10/2021 19:44, Marc Wilson wrote: > > The snitch is needed later in the story arc, so it had to exist. The > > rules could have been marginally more sensible, though - e.g. when the > > snitch is caught, the match is over, without an effect on the score. > > > > That would have made the seekers' roles more strategic - the side > > currently losing would be keen to block the winning side's seeker, > > rather than catch it themselves. > > Oooh, I like that idea. Simple and elegant and seamless. > > The other thing that annoyed me was the house scores. I have this > impression that in each year, Gryffindor would be lagging behind other > houses, and then they would get awarded just enough points to win for > some spurious, ad-hoc reason. > > Even though I was rooting for Harry's house, it offended my sense of > fairness. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 02:44:42 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 20:44:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Even I don't like the idea of killing someone with a mind for the sake of taking over his or her body for someone else. And I'm not known for my all-loving nature. On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 7:12 PM Joel Polowin wrote: > From: WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > Has there been any any cloning shown in the nexus except for the > > Jackson Whole body Leggers (a take on organleggers which is a take on > > bootleggers). > > There was the Durona Group; I don't think that they can be described > reasonably as organleggers. > > brazee wrote: > > The process doesn?t sicken me. Identical twins are clones. Lots of > > our fruits and vegetables are clones. > > > > But if it is done for body parts or for narcissistic reasons, I agree > > with you. > > I don't have a problem with cloned *parts* being grown, like the organs > described in LMB's books: Miles's new organs, Professora Vorthys's > heart, and so on. I'm not even terribly offended by the idea of an > acephalic body being grown for organs to be harvested from. I hate the > idea of a person being brought to maturity for that purpose with a mind, > and then killed. > > Joel > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 03:04:03 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 21:04:03 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Education, was Spirit Ring - Fathers & Daughters In-Reply-To: <38DB6010-D240-497A-AACB-379C228336F7@panix.com> References: <38DB6010-D240-497A-AACB-379C228336F7@panix.com> Message-ID: Sometimes when our museum needs to do some major project we'll go to the police station and borrow some trustees to help out. A few years ago we had to clear up and rearrange out storage unit and had a trustee work with us. When we finished I took him to the store and bought him a few snacks and a big gulp before bringing him back to the jail. We got to talking and I found out he was completely illiterate. What was worse was he didn't think it was necessary to learn how to read. I tried to convince him to learn but wasn't interested. On Sat, Oct 9, 2021, 2:42 AM WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > > > On Sep 8, 2021, at 3:02 AM, Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > > > We're only a few generations away from times when literacy wasn't > > universal. > > Ah, in America there are people who are functionally illiterate to the > point they can?t > read the labels in a grocery store, (not the ingredients, but the label > telling what the > product is purported to be). > > ? > Sig of no sig. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 03:27:15 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 21:27:15 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> References: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> Message-ID: I suspect it might have something to do with short term memory. Basically the brain doesn't think its important enough to store the information in the memory banks (so to speak) that's why witnesses are so unreliable. There is a class exercise where the students suddenly witnesses a event in class and has to describe the incident and those involved. Many of students get it wrong. On Sat, Oct 9, 2021, 1:47 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 11:19:54 -0400, WalterStuartBushell > wrote: > > > > > > >> On Oct 9, 2021, at 7:16 AM, Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > >> > >> "Change blindness" is often invoked in paranormal works to explain why > people don't notice weird stuff around them. In the webcomic ?El Goonish > Shive? a shape-shifter demonstrates it by repeatedly changing her hair > colour when people look away, and when they look back they don?t realise > she was a different colour before. > > > >This has been documented in videos. They used different people in very > short time differences and the subject > >didn?t seem to notice the person they were talking to had changed. > > > >When you are getting directions do you really care about from whom? > > There's a famous video where people are asked to study a basketball > game, and only around 5% of test subjects recall that a man in a gorilla > suit walks across the court. > > I *do* hope my liberty never depends on the observation skills of the > average eyewitness. > -- > "Fine" doesn't mean fine. The scale goes: "Great, good, OK, not OK, > I hate you, Fine." - Two Broke Girls > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 03:49:27 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 21:49:27 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd like to universal organs like hearts, livers, kidneys, and lungs grown or cloned. Too many people die because they couldn't get that organ in time. On Sat, Oct 9, 2021, 8:45 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > Even I don't like the idea of killing someone with a mind for the sake of > taking over his or her body for someone else. And I'm not known for my > all-loving nature. > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 7:12 PM Joel Polowin wrote: > > > From: WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > > Has there been any any cloning shown in the nexus except for the > > > Jackson Whole body Leggers (a take on organleggers which is a take on > > > bootleggers). > > > > There was the Durona Group; I don't think that they can be described > > reasonably as organleggers. > > > > brazee wrote: > > > The process doesn?t sicken me. Identical twins are clones. Lots of > > > our fruits and vegetables are clones. > > > > > > But if it is done for body parts or for narcissistic reasons, I agree > > > with you. > > > > I don't have a problem with cloned *parts* being grown, like the organs > > described in LMB's books: Miles's new organs, Professora Vorthys's > > heart, and so on. I'm not even terribly offended by the idea of an > > acephalic body being grown for organs to be harvested from. I hate the > > idea of a person being brought to maturity for that purpose with a mind, > > and then killed. > > > > Joel > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rgmolpus at flash.net Sun Oct 10 03:54:39 2021 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard G. Molpus) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 02:54:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1721782174.1446916.1633834479558@mail.yahoo.com> It's clear that organ cloning is common throughout the nexus; if they can clone kidneys, they can clone anything. Uterine replicators can support organ growth, so full body duplication isn't needed (tho growing a complete organ subsystem (say, and entire digestive tract,, which Miles needed) is probably done to ensure proper operation in the end. ?Editing the tolmeres is probably easily done; consider Terrence See; if it hadn't been done, his lifespan would be limited by the age of the woman who carried the telepathy gene complex. She was old, per canon, so those genes from her would be age-limited. The Celestial Garden would have done the required adjustment, to give their test subjects a normal lifespan. On Saturday, October 9, 2021, 05:30:41 PM CDT, brazee wrote: > On Oct 9, 2021, at 4:26 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > Has there been any any cloning shown in the nexus except for the Jackson Whole body Leggers (a take on organleggers which is a take on bootleggers). > Does anyone think that human cloning is a good idea? I think it?s sickening. > We have no way of adjusting length of the tolemers which would be shorter in an adult than in an embryo. Remember, Dolly lived less than half as long as is normal for a sheep of that breed. The process doesn?t sicken me.? Identical twins are clones.? Lots of our fruits and vegetables are clones.? But if it is done for body parts or for narcissistic reasons, I agree with you. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From pouncer at aol.com Sun Oct 10 04:15:34 2021 From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 22:15:34 -0500 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials References: <9f1854a6-df4b-60a0-17e7-9ddb41e1cf2f.ref@aol.com> Message-ID: <9f1854a6-df4b-60a0-17e7-9ddb41e1cf2f@aol.com> William reports: >I have been watching far too many commercials recently. May I respectfully suggest that watching TV, in general, often tends to be "too much" ? Any network, any time of the day. I speak as a thoroughly addicted reader, of course. But carrying on >Both the commercials for cancer in post menopausal women and >for prostate cancer warn of problems with pregnancy. >Since when can people with prostates or are post menopausal >get pregnant? TMI follows: I have cancer and a functional, if enlarged, prostate. I am not a pharmacist or doctor or RN. I do get a monthly lecture on this topic, whenever my prescriptions are refilled. My cancer drug sufficiently contaminates my body fluids that even small quantities pose a risk of birth defects in a developing embryo. I should not give blood. Or plasma. My functional prostate produces contaminated semen. Were my wife younger, our nuptial joys would be dangerous to our potential child. Were I adulterous with a "person with a womb" -- one already pregnant, even -- I would risk damage to HER child. My pharmacy doesn't emphasize the matter but I suspect my spit, sweat, and tears also pose some small risk of damage (teratogenic, not mutagenic -- obBujold) to some babies under some circumstances. Since when? Not that who gets pregnant has changed, but the warning requirements have. Since the 1950s and thalidomide, I gather. It's still prescribed in this century. For some cancers. For leprosy. Rare auto-immune disorders... Prescriptions for thalidomide come with warnings not at all unlike the ones I hear every month. Or, an alternate hypothesis, it's since we invented second-hand smoke. Since we've decided the prime user's exhalations endanger a secondary proximate person's health, we elevate the level of protections to those persons by warnings and restrictions on the primary consumer of the product. Protections for pregnant persons or persons potentially pregnable, and their progeny, seem to me to be the most reasonable of such efforts. If aspirin were newly discovered, approved, and marketed today, our governments would likely require your TV commercials to list all the potential side effects and hazards testing has revealed: https://www.drugs.com/sfx/aspirin-side-effects.html To the extent there's a problem it's less with the warnings -- which should be discussed in Q&A between patients and providers -- and more with the commercials. Laymen are being encouraged to self-diagnose and self-prescribe. And the warnings on any drug are so similar to the warnings on any other drug, we are all being conditioned to tune-out; disregard any warnings as time-wasting boilerplate. -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sun Oct 10 04:24:36 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 23:24:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Education, was Spirit Ring - Fathers & Daughters In-Reply-To: References: <38DB6010-D240-497A-AACB-379C228336F7@panix.com> Message-ID: Up here, trustees are public-minded citizens who are members of governing boards for libraries or theatre companies or museums etc. I gather that's NOT what you meant here, but the confusion on my part was fairly severe... That's too bad you couldn't convince the illiterate man. Maybe he needed an incentive, like a story he could only find the ending of by reading. Though I would think that not being able to read signs or notices or labels would be incentive enough. I know my local library has books with simple vocabularies that are designed for adults to help them to learn to read or improve their reading skill by giving them something worthwhile. Alayne On Sat, 9 Oct 2021, Raymond Collins wrote: > Sometimes when our museum needs to do some major project we'll go to the > police station and borrow some trustees to help out. A few years ago we had > to clear up and rearrange out storage unit and had a trustee work with us. > When we finished I took him to the store and bought him a few snacks and a > big gulp before bringing him back to the jail. We got to talking and I > found out he was completely illiterate. What was worse was he didn't think > it was necessary to learn how to read. I tried to convince him to learn > but wasn't interested. -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sun Oct 10 04:32:03 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 23:32:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Oct 2021, Joel Polowin wrote: > I don't have a problem with cloned *parts* being grown, like the organs > described in LMB's books: Miles's new organs, Professora Vorthys's > heart, and so on. I'm not even terribly offended by the idea of an > acephalic body being grown for organs to be harvested from. I hate the > idea of a person being brought to maturity for that purpose with a mind, > and then killed. Strongly agreed - not that I need anything right now, but... I'd like knee and hip joints cloned too. The current situation leads to people making public special pleas for kidney donors, which is wrong in itself. There should be not a shortage of organs (and yes, I've fully filled out my after-death organ donor card.) Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sun Oct 10 04:34:43 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 23:34:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Oct 2021, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > I have been watching far too many commercials recently. There is a common item that comes up in many of them. Both the commercials for cancer in post menopausal women and for prostate cancer warn of problems with pregnancy. > Since when can people with prostates or are post menopausal get pregnant? So glad Canada severely restricts ad for pharmaceuticals. In any case, the only ads I've seen lately were on YouTube, and not many of those, amd all for innocuous products. -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From focsle1928 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 10 04:50:57 2021 From: focsle1928 at yahoo.com (Jane Hotchkiss) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 03:50:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Nevil Shute In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1772222321.616192.1633837857732@mail.yahoo.com> A few days ago we were discussing SF by Australian authors. I've deleted the emails, so I can't quote whomever brought up Shute. I've read most of his work, fic/bio/nonfic/sf. The only one I can remember as sf was _In the Wet_, in which someone had a concussion enabling him to see into the future, trying to get back to his girlfriend in the present. Rather liked it. Jane Hotchkiss From howard at brazee.net Sun Oct 10 04:55:05 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 21:55:05 -0600 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C9D2261-A8B0-400B-9009-723B3DA46B56@brazee.net> > On Oct 9, 2021, at 9:34 PM, alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: > > So glad Canada severely restricts ad for pharmaceuticals. In any case, the only ads I've seen lately were on YouTube, and not many of those, amd all for innocuous products. The U.S. used to be that way for a long time. I wonder if one reason many people don?t trust physicians now is because ads tell consumers to tell their physicians what to prescribe. From saffronrose at me.com Sun Oct 10 05:03:30 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 21:03:30 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A few tears ago, I cut my waist length straggles of hair to just below my waist. I had it down at home a lot. My husband helped with my dance costumes and costume corsets, with my hair down. Two years later he still hadn?t noticed. I was not amused. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala On Sat, Oct 9, 2021, 1:47 PM Marc Wilson wrote: >> >> I *do* hope my liberty never depends on the observation skills of the >> average eyewitness. From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 05:09:06 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 00:09:06 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Education, was Spirit Ring - Fathers & Daughters In-Reply-To: References: <38DB6010-D240-497A-AACB-379C228336F7@panix.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 11:24 PM wrote: > .... > > That's too bad you couldn't convince the illiterate man. Maybe he needed > an incentive, like a story he could only find the ending of by reading. > Though I would think that not being able to read signs or notices or > labels would be incentive enough. > > I know my local library has books with simple vocabularies that are > designed for adults to help them to learn to read or improve their reading > skill by giving them something worthwhile. > > Alayne > I could use some books for adults, with simple vocabularies and good grammar, in the languages I am learning on Duolingo. From litalex at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 05:35:43 2021 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 00:35:43 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: <51438824e0c73ca6e7762ac98e2398c8@gol.com> References: <0C669C72-DF9A-4789-9229-A56FD0CACEFA@brazee.net> <51438824e0c73ca6e7762ac98e2398c8@gol.com> Message-ID: <3DD01C0A-715D-401D-A600-2C115EC58A9E@gmail.com> Hello, > On Oct 9, 2021, at 09:08, dbernat wrote: > It's easy to set a story in one's own culture. > > It's much harder to set a story in a culture known only from reading books on that culture. > > Which is, I suppose, why so much fiction on Japan and China* is such a dreary mess. > > *I thought the military adventure set in China that had the male hero constantly wearing a woman's dress during combat to be particularly risible. Sorry, huh? Can I ask which book is that? little Alex From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 05:56:25 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 23:56:25 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Education, was Spirit Ring - Fathers & Daughters In-Reply-To: References: <38DB6010-D240-497A-AACB-379C228336F7@panix.com> Message-ID: Have you thought of comic books? The Asterix series, for example, has been translated into all sorts of languages (I have my own favorite*, Asterix and the Roman Agent*, in English, German and Latin...that last one was a real bear to find at any sort of reasonable price!) When I was studying German in high school, I found the *Peanuts* books in German our teacher had laying around to be quite helpful, since I already knew them well in English. On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 11:09 PM Sylvia McIvers wrote: > On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 11:24 PM wrote: > > > .... > > > > That's too bad you couldn't convince the illiterate man. Maybe he needed > > an incentive, like a story he could only find the ending of by reading. > > Though I would think that not being able to read signs or notices or > > labels would be incentive enough. > > > > I know my local library has books with simple vocabularies that are > > designed for adults to help them to learn to read or improve their > reading > > skill by giving them something worthwhile. > > > > Alayne > > > > > I could use some books for adults, with simple vocabularies and good > grammar, in the languages I am learning on Duolingo. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From lmb at matija.com Sun Oct 10 06:24:06 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 06:24:06 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <352b2f11-4ff2-9f11-fc47-cc9f79a52f6f@matija.com> On 09/10/2021 23:26, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Has there been any any cloning shown in the nexus except for the Jackson Whole body Leggers (a take on organleggers which is a take on bootleggers). > Does anyone think that human cloning is a good idea? I think it?s sickening. > We have no way of adjusting length of the tolemers which would be shorter in an adult than in an embryo. Remember, Dolly lived less than half as long as is normal for a sheep of that breed. Cloning is/will be a tool like any other - good or bad depends on the use it is put to. Cloning of parts to provide replacement parts (i.e. growing a kidney or a lung when one is needed)? Yes, please. Cloning an existing person in the hope that the clone will continue on the same path once the original dies? Very likely to end in tears, because we are not just a product of our genes, but also our experiences/environment, and the one the clone will experience will be different from the one the original got. Cloning an existing person so that you could kill them and then harvest their organs? I'd treat it the same way as killing one's twin for their organs, aggravated murder. From lmb at matija.com Sun Oct 10 06:28:36 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 06:28:36 +0100 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/10/2021 02:11, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > I have been watching far too many commercials recently. There is a common item that comes up in many of them. Both the commercials for cancer in post menopausal women and for prostate cancer warn of problems with pregnancy. > Since when can people with prostates or are post menopausal get pregnant? Unfortunately, people don't always take the medicines for the purposes intended. Witness the recent appetite for using horse dewormer in humans. From lmb at matija.com Sun Oct 10 06:39:30 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 06:39:30 +0100 Subject: [LMB] back to Spirit Ring; was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <-0zX6m6ST0tq4fUnYhsLVHSm5z3BsSl3wujXJN6rwyHXZvk86WyHdO1noHGZOAXf6P1cpwARo7SdYhb_7FRSE1UIDihRC90EbLHklumZhRM=@protonmail.com> <2B0FCF0C-28AA-4020-82D2-4DD3D582E2BB@comcast.net> <1D0AF104-D33C-4746-8E81-19350D853CB9@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: On 10/10/2021 02:31, Sylvia McIvers wrote: > And one day.... one day Aral VorK will be known mainly for being Miles > VorK's father. > Oh yes, all manner of hubris. Will he? Aral was a general, a regent and a long-time prime minister, very public offices, and he made history while in them. Miles' most glorious achievements are classified, and therefore won't make him famous. As far as the public knows, he had an undistinguished military career as a low-rank courier, and then he was given a sinecure job as an auditor. Sure an auditor has a lot of power, but so does the chairman of the fed. How many chairmen of the fed can you name without looking it up? We know Miles was a lot more, but most of that stuff is not public, at all. From baur at chello.at Sun Oct 10 09:07:54 2021 From: baur at chello.at (baur baur) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 10:07:54 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <676916501.675950.1633853274257@webmail.mymagenta.at> "A few tears ago" is that a freudian typo? 8) servus markus > A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold hat am 10.10.2021 06:03 geschrieben: > > > A few tears ago, I cut my waist length straggles of hair to just below my waist. I had it down at home a lot. My husband helped with my dance costumes and costume corsets, with my hair down. Two years later he still hadn?t noticed. I was not amused. > > A. Marina Fournier > saffronrose at me.com > Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e > Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA > Sent from iFionnghuala > > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2021, 1:47 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > >> > >> I *do* hope my liberty never depends on the observation skills of the > >> average eyewitness. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 09:29:51 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 03:29:51 -0500 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We used to have the same restrictions on pharmaceutical adds until the 80's I hate them. On Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 12:28 AM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On 10/10/2021 02:11, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > I have been watching far too many commercials recently. There is a > common item that comes up in many of them. Both the commercials for cancer > in post menopausal women and for prostate cancer warn of problems with > pregnancy. > > Since when can people with prostates or are post menopausal get pregnant? > Unfortunately, people don't always take the medicines for the purposes > intended. Witness the recent appetite for using horse dewormer in humans. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 09:35:13 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 03:35:13 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: <676916501.675950.1633853274257@webmail.mymagenta.at> References: <676916501.675950.1633853274257@webmail.mymagenta.at> Message-ID: Oops! On behalf of all in in-observant males and I'm a prime example, I most humbly apologize. Mea culpa. On Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 3:07 AM baur baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > "A few tears ago" > > is that a freudian typo? 8) > > servus > > markus > > > > A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold hat > am 10.10.2021 06:03 geschrieben: > > > > > > A few tears ago, I cut my waist length straggles of hair to just below > my waist. I had it down at home a lot. My husband helped with my dance > costumes and costume corsets, with my hair down. Two years later he still > hadn?t noticed. I was not amused. > > > > A. Marina Fournier > > saffronrose at me.com > > Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e > > Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA > > Sent from iFionnghuala > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2021, 1:47 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > > >> > > >> I *do* hope my liberty never depends on the observation skills of the > > >> average eyewitness. > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From baur at chello.at Sun Oct 10 09:38:32 2021 From: baur at chello.at (baur baur) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 10:38:32 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Education, was Spirit Ring - Fathers & Daughters In-Reply-To: References: <38DB6010-D240-497A-AACB-379C228336F7@panix.com> Message-ID: <2011163170.676131.1633855112735@webmail.mymagenta.at> i am nbot sure that asterix would be a good choice in this case .. as it needs at least a minimum of historical knowledge .. servus markus > Eric Oppen hat am 10.10.2021 06:56 geschrieben: > > > Have you thought of comic books? The Asterix series, for example, has been > translated into all sorts of languages (I have my own favorite*, Asterix > and the Roman Agent*, in English, German and Latin...that last one was a > real bear to find at any sort of reasonable price!) When I was studying > German in high school, I found the *Peanuts* books in German our teacher > had laying around to be quite helpful, since I already knew them well in > English. > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 11:09 PM Sylvia McIvers > wrote: > > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 11:24 PM wrote: > > > > > .... > > > > > > That's too bad you couldn't convince the illiterate man. Maybe he needed > > > an incentive, like a story he could only find the ending of by reading. > > > Though I would think that not being able to read signs or notices or > > > labels would be incentive enough. > > > > > > I know my local library has books with simple vocabularies that are > > > designed for adults to help them to learn to read or improve their > > reading > > > skill by giving them something worthwhile. > > > > > > Alayne > > > > > > > > > I could use some books for adults, with simple vocabularies and good > > grammar, in the languages I am learning on Duolingo. > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sun Oct 10 09:41:04 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 08:41:04 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> Message-ID: <1jdzUMF54xMKxHY27LCkMRxGO24148fKNmpPC-bhDsSEOLAw2MrPwFibYW6HduZTQgxHyTad1XxQitSKVjRsKLtadrhVFOxRlT4Jp38KtFw=@protonmail.com> On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 04:27, Raymond Collins wrote: > I suspect it might have something to do with short term memory. Basically > > the brain doesn't think its important enough to store the information in > > the memory banks (so to speak) that's why witnesses are so unreliable. > > There is a class exercise where the students suddenly witnesses a event in > > class and has to describe the incident and those involved. Many of students > > get it wrong. There's also mental editing, where we recall what "must" have happened. My favourite example was one where a couple of men burst into a lecture, one of them stabbed the other with a banana, and they ran out. Almost everyone reported that he'd been stabbed with a knife, because it couldn't have been a banana, could it? More ominous was another where a black and a white man ran in and the white man stabbed the black man. When interviewed afterwards more than half the class recalled that the black man had stabbed the white man. That was in the 70s, I'd like to hope that if it were repeated today the results would be different. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 09:43:11 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 03:43:11 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I also have a organ donor notice on my driver's license. But I hope that one day that nobody has to wait for a critical organ anymore. On Sat, Oct 9, 2021, 10:32 PM wrote: > On Sun, 10 Oct 2021, Joel Polowin wrote: > > I don't have a problem with cloned *parts* being grown, like the organs > > described in LMB's books: Miles's new organs, Professora Vorthys's > > heart, and so on. I'm not even terribly offended by the idea of an > > acephalic body being grown for organs to be harvested from. I hate the > > idea of a person being brought to maturity for that purpose with a mind, > > and then killed. > > Strongly agreed - not that I need anything right now, but... I'd like knee > and hip joints cloned too. > > The current situation leads to people making public special pleas for > kidney donors, which is wrong in itself. There should be not a shortage of > organs (and yes, I've fully filled out my after-death organ donor card.) > > Alayne > > -- > Alayne McGregor > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > > What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We > need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the > institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate > and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From baur at chello.at Sun Oct 10 09:56:04 2021 From: baur at chello.at (baur baur) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 10:56:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: <1jdzUMF54xMKxHY27LCkMRxGO24148fKNmpPC-bhDsSEOLAw2MrPwFibYW6HduZTQgxHyTad1XxQitSKVjRsKLtadrhVFOxRlT4Jp38KtFw=@protonmail.com> References: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> <1jdzUMF54xMKxHY27LCkMRxGO24148fKNmpPC-bhDsSEOLAw2MrPwFibYW6HduZTQgxHyTad1XxQitSKVjRsKLtadrhVFOxRlT4Jp38KtFw=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <413373418.676213.1633856164827@webmail.mymagenta.at> iirc the first full scientific investigation of eyewitness quality was done by the AAIB (air accident investigation board) in the 1950-ies who basically found that there was no such thing as eyewitness quality 8) servus markus > Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold hat am 10.10.2021 10:41 geschrieben: > > > On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 04:27, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > I suspect it might have something to do with short term memory. Basically > > > > the brain doesn't think its important enough to store the information in > > > > the memory banks (so to speak) that's why witnesses are so unreliable. > > > > There is a class exercise where the students suddenly witnesses a event in > > > > class and has to describe the incident and those involved. Many of students > > > > get it wrong. > > There's also mental editing, where we recall what "must" have happened. My favourite example was one where a couple of men burst into a lecture, one of them stabbed the other with a banana, and they ran out. Almost everyone reported that he'd been stabbed with a knife, because it couldn't have been a banana, could it? > > More ominous was another where a black and a white man ran in and the white man stabbed the black man. When interviewed afterwards more than half the class recalled that the black man had stabbed the white man. That was in the 70s, I'd like to hope that if it were repeated today the results would be different. > > Peter Hews > > Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, > Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From saffronrose at me.com Sun Oct 10 10:19:34 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 02:19:34 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 10, 2021, at 1:35 AM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > ?Oops! On behalf of all in in-observant males and I'm a prime example, I > most humbly apologize. Mea culpa. > >> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 3:07 AM baur baur via Lois-Bujold < >> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: >> >> "A few tears ago" >> >> is that a freudian typo? 8) >> >>> A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold hat >> am 10.10.2021 06:03 geschrieben: >>> >>> >>> A few tears ago, I cut my waist length straggles of hair to just below >> my waist. I had it down at home a lot. My husband helped with my dance >> costumes and costume corsets, with my hair down. Two years later he still >> hadn?t noticed. I was not amused. >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2021, 1:47 PM Marc Wilson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I *do* hope my liberty never depends on the observation skills of the >>>>> average eyewitness. I agree. Raymond, you?re fine! There was a certain amount of deliberate inattention from him for a few years. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sun Oct 10 11:31:30 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 10:31:30 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Nevil Shute In-Reply-To: <1772222321.616192.1633837857732@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1772222321.616192.1633837857732@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 05:50, Jane Hotchkiss via Lois-Bujold wrote: > A few days ago we were discussing SF by Australian authors. I've deleted the emails, so I can't quote whomever brought up Shute. I've read most of his work, fic/bio/nonfic/sf. The only one I can remember as sf was In the Wet, in which someone had a concussion enabling him to see into the future, trying to get back to his girlfriend in the present. Rather liked it. > I think you may be mixing up "In the Wet" with "An Old Captivity," where the hero is trapped in a past life as a slave of the Vikings. I didn't like "In the Wet", but that's because the future he described was the '50s cliche of Britain going to rack and ruin under the socialist tyrany of a Labour government. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From sturmvogel66 at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 11:55:40 2021 From: sturmvogel66 at gmail.com (Jason Long) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 06:55:40 -0400 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That horse dewormer has a primary anti-parasitic use in humans. Its discoverers won a Nobel Prize. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 1:28 AM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On 10/10/2021 02:11, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > I have been watching far too many commercials recently. There is a > common item that comes up in many of them. Both the commercials for cancer > in post menopausal women and for prostate cancer warn of problems with > pregnancy. > > Since when can people with prostates or are post menopausal get pregnant? > Unfortunately, people don't always take the medicines for the purposes > intended. Witness the recent appetite for using horse dewormer in humans. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to sturmvogel66 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sun Oct 10 12:05:36 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:05:36 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8AalZxiNuJeI41AukhhZE3uPUBqe3HGz4Txom8kZjvO1SYTyTvDAIjFjG87RF92-axaXEzCeb9I2LAH4n6C6vG8WHgjLkfGvvny3tCfbhmM=@protonmail.com> On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 02:12, Joel Polowin wrote: > > I don't have a problem with cloned parts being grown, like the organs > > described in LMB's books: Miles's new organs, Professora Vorthys's > > heart, and so on. I'm not even terribly offended by the idea of an > > acephalic body being grown for organs to be harvested from. I hate the > > idea of a person being brought to maturity for that purpose with a mind, > > and then killed. > In Bass' "The Godwhale," clones raised for organ harvesting are brought to maturity with no human contact, so they never develop language. The people of the time consider that sufficient reason to regard them as animals to be slaughtered at need. But the hero, brought forward from a time much nearer ours, is horrified and refuses to be given new legs at the price of the clone's life. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sun Oct 10 12:14:55 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:14:55 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 04:49, Raymond Collins wrote: > I'd like to universal organs like hearts, livers, kidneys, and lungs grown > > or cloned. Too many people die because they couldn't get that organ in time. > We're close. They've already made structurally simple things like skin from the patient's own cells, and more complex organs like a kidney are only a matter of perfecting the creaton of different cell types and assembling them right. It's a slow business at present because things have to be 3D printed from cell solutions, but once we figure out how organs shape themselves in the foetus, we'll be there. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From proto at panix.com Sun Oct 10 12:20:23 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 07:20:23 -0400 Subject: [LMB] back to Spirit Ring; was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <1D0AF104-D33C-4746-8E81-19350D853CB9@hamilton.edu> References: <-0zX6m6ST0tq4fUnYhsLVHSm5z3BsSl3wujXJN6rwyHXZvk86WyHdO1noHGZOAXf6P1cpwARo7SdYhb_7FRSE1UIDihRC90EbLHklumZhRM=@protonmail.com> <2B0FCF0C-28AA-4020-82D2-4DD3D582E2BB@comcast.net> <1D0AF104-D33C-4746-8E81-19350D853CB9@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: <87FEBCD6-2756-4DBD-91BA-0DF6B149D1F3@panix.com> > On Oct 9, 2021, at 1:07 PM, Kathy Collett wrote: > > On Oct 9, 2021, at 12:17 PM, WalterStuartBushell , veering back on-topic, wrote: >> >> And in _The Spirit Ring_ we have the magician?s daughter. > > That is true, and it would be equally true to say we have the sorcerer?s apprentice. But as the Golden Age of Science Fiction characters being talked about were mostly minor characters, and Fiametta is the protagonist, it?s more that one of the characters is the magician?s or apprentice's father. > > Katherine > -- > So here LMB subverted the cliche. Thing is at least at the time, boys would not read stories with girls or women as the protagonist, whereas girls and women would read stories with men and boys as protagonists. It behooved authors to write male protagonists. There were some stories with girls as protagonists such as Nancy Drew girl detective.[1} Even back in the 1930s. One teacher read us Nancy Drew stories after lunch [1950s] and then another teacher was horrified and said we boys should be reading stories with male heroes, both were women. Even LMB seems to favor male protagonists. The bulk of her work is the Miles stories. Suppose Heinlein had written _Stranger_ with a female protagonist. [1}Nancy Drew is a fictional character, a sleuth in an American mystery series created by publisher Edward Stratemeyer as the female counterpart to his Hardy Boys series. The character first appeared in 1930. The books are ghostwritten by a number of authors and published under the collective pseudonym Carolyn Keene. ? Wikipedia From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sun Oct 10 12:21:43 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:21:43 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <80d803c6-eca2-ecb7-8c63-4520fe7de653@matija.com> References: <62881C5F-7BAA-4141-A608-6EBD765EAFCF@brazee.net> <504914469.785886.1633791062291@mail.yahoo.com> <5ko3mgll2ciforevggpnanr0usr8t14q7s@4ax.com> <80d803c6-eca2-ecb7-8c63-4520fe7de653@matija.com> Message-ID: On Saturday, October 9th, 2021 at 22:04, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > The other thing that annoyed me was the house scores. I have this > > impression that in each year, Gryffindor would be lagging behind other > > houses, and then they would get awarded just enough points to win for > > some spurious, ad-hoc reason. > > Even though I was rooting for Harry's house, it offended my sense of > > fairness. > Just once, it would have been nice if they'd won the cup fair and square. OTOH, the whole house points thing involved such blatant favouritism, with Snape docking Gryfindor at every excuse, that there wasn't much fairness involved. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sun Oct 10 12:24:52 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:24:52 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <504914469.785886.1633791062291@mail.yahoo.com> References: <62881C5F-7BAA-4141-A608-6EBD765EAFCF@brazee.net> <504914469.785886.1633791062291@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <-aaA9uFQ6Q7Op1q-6K43wT_6bnoyacz7pR3UUp6v-d8bxvO5eThlR8ExzVc7LFv7sSVB8HEMwUAK-HWviX67inxP68GNTwY7mRVHPuZgiD4=@protonmail.com> On Saturday, October 9th, 2021 at 16:51, Karen A. Wyle wrote: > I agree. "Fantasy" isn't an excuse for sloppy drafting, inconsistencies, and other such flaws. A fantasy world doesn't have to be based on scientific laws or extrapolations therefrom, but it's not a narrative free-for-all -- unless it's tongue-in-cheek in a particular way that the Harry Potter books aren't. > Aren't they? I saw it, like the weird currency, as Carrolian absurdity not meant to make sense - something children appreciate much more than most adults. You might as well complain that the White Knight's inventions would never work. BTW, the header "Rawling was Heinlein" keeps catching my eye. Is this supposed to be reincarnation? Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From proto at panix.com Sun Oct 10 12:27:49 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 07:27:49 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> References: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 9, 2021, at 2:47 PM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > There's a famous video where people are asked to study a basketball > game, and only around 5% of test subjects recall that a man in a gorilla > suit walks across the court. True and the mallibility of memory means that if a witness picks someone out of a lineup that tends to overwrite the memory of the event. Juries are tend to take confidence of witnesses as indications of truth. Law enforcement has generally used this to get convictions. From egern at protonmail.com Sun Oct 10 12:32:28 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:32:28 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <504914469.785886.1633791062291@mail.yahoo.com> References: <62881C5F-7BAA-4141-A608-6EBD765EAFCF@brazee.net> <504914469.785886.1633791062291@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? > > On Saturday, October 9, 2021, 10:47:24 AM EDT, brazee howard at brazee.net wrote: > > > On Oct 9, 2021, at 8:45 AM, tidsel via Lois-Bujold lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk wrote: > > > > > > As for Quidditch, it is not meant to be 'rational', for god's sake, you might as well complain that a fairy tale is not realistic. > > > > > > It wouldn?t have been hard to make it rational and fit what she was trying to do. She was lazy. > > > > It is called fantasy. And the kids LOVE it. > > It would be fantasy if she fixed the game rules, and the kids would still love it. On Saturday, October 9th, 2021 at 4:51 PM, Karen A. Wyle wrote: > I agree. "Fantasy" isn't an excuse for sloppy drafting, inconsistencies, and other such flaws. A fantasy world doesn't have to be based on scientific laws or extrapolations therefrom, but it's not a narrative free-for-all -- unless it's tongue-in-cheek in a particular way that the Harry Potter books aren't. I am a bit amazed - this woman has gotten thousands of kids off the games and into reading for the first time, including incidentally my own stepson, and it has opened up topics no one talked about. Wildly popular books written at first by a desperate mom to get by. And all you can do is raise your teacher fingers and say 'fy fy - you make mistakes and fantasy does not mean that you just use your imagination, of course - there has be RULES.' Fortunately a lot of both children and adults (who may not have forgotten their childhood) simply go along for the ride and zoom along on a broomstick - WHEEEEEE :-))) T From egern at protonmail.com Sun Oct 10 12:34:39 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:34:39 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <3BE9AD70-E1C4-47E9-9D42-E637221D9065@panix.com> References: <3BE9AD70-E1C4-47E9-9D42-E637221D9065@panix.com> Message-ID: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Saturday, October 9th, 2021 at 5:14 PM, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > On Oct 9, 2021, at 6:50 AM, tidsel via Lois-Bujold lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk wrote: > > > > As for Quidditch, it is not meant to be 'rational', for god's sake, you might as well complain that a fairy tale is not realistic. > > > > Her world has many inconsistencies in it, true, but that is unimportant for the stories. > > > > You must criticize a book on its own terms, on what it is trying to do. > > > > T > > Two criteria, ?Did the author achieve his goals?? and ?Was what the author set out to do worthwhile??. To which I would say yes, and yes. T From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sun Oct 10 12:35:26 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:35:26 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials Message-ID: On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 12:55, Jason Long wrote: > That horse dewormer has a primary anti-parasitic use in humans. Its > > discoverers won a Nobel Prize. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin It has also shown serious promise as an anti-viral. Many drugs have more than one useful effect. Viagra was first developed as a heart medication. Not everything the alt-right supports is nonsense. Even a stopped clock is right sometimes. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From egern at protonmail.com Sun Oct 10 12:35:30 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:35:30 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Saturday, October 9th, 2021 at 5:26 PM, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > On Oct 9, 2021, at 10:45 AM, tidsel via Lois-Bujold lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk wrote: > > > > It is called fantasy. And the kids LOVE it. > > > > T > > Better to call it ?trfancy? a swear word especially in critiques of poetry. Was does that mean? T From lmb at matija.com Sun Oct 10 12:37:56 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 12:37:56 +0100 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77cea0f1-3f04-90ca-6b85-42f291695079@matija.com> On 10/10/2021 11:55, Jason Long wrote: > That horse dewormer has a primary anti-parasitic use in humans. Its > discoverers won a Nobel Prize. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin The people who are taking it are not taking it because they suffer from parasites. (Nor is the horse dosage or purity appropriate for human consumption). And that was my point: all it takes is for some unscrupulous person to start an internet rumor of how that medicine brings some benefit to your unborn baby, and there will be idiots feeding it to pregnant women. And when the terrible things happen they will say "nobody warned us". So warnings have to be made about things that are unlikely, yet very harmful. From lmb at matija.com Sun Oct 10 12:41:37 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 12:41:37 +0100 Subject: [LMB] back to Spirit Ring; was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <87FEBCD6-2756-4DBD-91BA-0DF6B149D1F3@panix.com> References: <-0zX6m6ST0tq4fUnYhsLVHSm5z3BsSl3wujXJN6rwyHXZvk86WyHdO1noHGZOAXf6P1cpwARo7SdYhb_7FRSE1UIDihRC90EbLHklumZhRM=@protonmail.com> <2B0FCF0C-28AA-4020-82D2-4DD3D582E2BB@comcast.net> <1D0AF104-D33C-4746-8E81-19350D853CB9@hamilton.edu> <87FEBCD6-2756-4DBD-91BA-0DF6B149D1F3@panix.com> Message-ID: <393bf102-e329-aa39-172d-e8fa08ce429d@matija.com> On 10/10/2021 12:20, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > Suppose Heinlein had written _Stranger_ with a female protagonist. The first few chapters of Stranger are written with a female protagonist, since they are written from the viewpoint of nurse Broadbent (sp? it's been a long time). Valentine Michael is in a coma at that time. From proto at panix.com Sun Oct 10 12:41:46 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 07:41:46 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23DBE0F0-A04F-43AB-9D05-B3F3C56A0049@panix.com> > On Oct 9, 2021, at 6:53 PM, Harvey Fishman wrote: > > Dolly was euthanized at six years due to a progressive lung disease that was not related to her cloning. > > Harvey How do we know it wasn?t related to her cloning? ? Sig of no sig. From proto at panix.com Sun Oct 10 12:57:32 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 07:57:32 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Education, was Spirit Ring - Fathers & Daughters In-Reply-To: References: <38DB6010-D240-497A-AACB-379C228336F7@panix.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 9, 2021, at 10:04 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > Sometimes when our museum needs to do some major project we'll go to the > police station and borrow some trustees to help out. A few years ago we had > to clear up and rearrange out storage unit and had a trustee work with us. > When we finished I took him to the store and bought him a few snacks and a > big gulp before bringing him back to the jail. We got to talking and I > found out he was completely illiterate. What was worse was he didn't think > it was necessary to learn how to read. I tried to convince him to learn > but wasn?t interested. Trustees in relation to museums are usually the people hit up for money. Many of the Museums should be in jail but with money and hence power comes lack of responsibility. The criminal justice system is set up to convict people who can?t defend themselves by buying a good lawyer and investigators instead of relying on overworked public defenders. ? MD. MS. in Law Robert Lustig ?If there?s a label on the food, it?s a warning label. That means it has been processed. Real food doesn?t need a label.? From egern at protonmail.com Sun Oct 10 12:59:57 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:59:57 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials In-Reply-To: <77cea0f1-3f04-90ca-6b85-42f291695079@matija.com> References: <77cea0f1-3f04-90ca-6b85-42f291695079@matija.com> Message-ID: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 1:37 PM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > On 10/10/2021 11:55, Jason Long wrote: > > > That horse dewormer has a primary anti-parasitic use in humans. Its > > > > discoverers won a Nobel Prize. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin > > The people who are taking it are not taking it because they suffer from > > parasites. (Nor is the horse dosage or purity appropriate for human > > consumption). > > And that was my point: all it takes is for some unscrupulous person to > > start an internet rumor of how that medicine brings some benefit to your > > unborn baby, and there will be idiots feeding it to pregnant women. Is is not as simple as that. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-56526632 https://colombiamedica.univalle.edu.co/index.php/comedica/article/view/4613/4859 Ivermectin has the potential to become an encouraging therapeutic agent to tackle COVID-19; while it has no impact on the replication of SARS-CoV-2, it attenuates inflammation and related symptoms. https://www.pasteur.fr/en/ivermectin-alleviates-covid-19-symptoms-animal-model T From egern at protonmail.com Sun Oct 10 13:03:34 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 12:03:34 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <62881C5F-7BAA-4141-A608-6EBD765EAFCF@brazee.net> <504914469.785886.1633791062291@mail.yahoo.com> <5ko3mgll2ciforevggpnanr0usr8t14q7s@4ax.com> <80d803c6-eca2-ecb7-8c63-4520fe7de653@matija.com> Message-ID: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 1:21 PM, Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold wrote: > On Saturday, October 9th, 2021 at 22:04, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk wrote: > > > The other thing that annoyed me was the house scores. I have this > > > > impression that in each year, Gryffindor would be lagging behind other > > > > houses, and then they would get awarded just enough points to win for > > > > some spurious, ad-hoc reason. > > > > Even though I was rooting for Harry's house, it offended my sense of > > > > fairness. > > Just once, it would have been nice if they'd won the cup fair and square. OTOH, the whole house points thing involved such blatant favouritism, with Snape docking Gryfindor at every excuse, that there wasn't much fairness involved. > > Peter Hews True, I thought so at times, but then equally often the system was against them. I think what the books say is that there there *is no justice* from authorities - a hard lesson but one that kids learn early. Just fight and friendship. T From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sun Oct 10 13:18:27 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 12:18:27 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <-Z78L7UbbA2cd72j4QDn1AB4_B86qVEThp3KQt7iAT-5HBZElXk4acm9xsJt6PyvRDYzsbfSRtWTCCndY-4Zw9c6pRfj5ZtOtfTggKc5CQE=@protonmail.com> On Saturday, October 9th, 2021 at 12:50, tidsel via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > > > On Oct 3, 2021, at 7:28 PM, Eric Oppen ravenclaweric at gmail.com wrote: > > > > True. And it?s a much, much darker world than I want kids to read about. > > > > > Some kids live in a dark world, and I think lots of orphans felt something open up for them in their loneliness. "Fairy tales are not meant to tell children there are monsters: they already know what. Fairy tales are to tell them the monsters can be defeated." - Tolkien Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From proto at panix.com Sun Oct 10 13:18:43 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 08:18:43 -0400 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 10, 2021, at 1:28 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Unfortunately, people don't always take the medicines for the purposes intended. Witness the recent appetite for using horse dewormer in humans. Pharmaceuticals are frequently prescribed for purposes for which they were not approved. People?s clothing may not be in accordance with their reproductive organs of birth. ? Remember if your parents didn?t have sex, you probably won?t have sex either. From proto at panix.com Sun Oct 10 13:21:05 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 08:21:05 -0400 Subject: [LMB] back to Spirit Ring; was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <-0zX6m6ST0tq4fUnYhsLVHSm5z3BsSl3wujXJN6rwyHXZvk86WyHdO1noHGZOAXf6P1cpwARo7SdYhb_7FRSE1UIDihRC90EbLHklumZhRM=@protonmail.com> <2B0FCF0C-28AA-4020-82D2-4DD3D582E2BB@comcast.net> <1D0AF104-D33C-4746-8E81-19350D853CB9@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: > On Oct 10, 2021, at 1:39 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Will he? Aral was a general, a regent and a long-time prime minister, very public offices, and he made history while in them. > > Miles' most glorious achievements are classified, and therefore won't make him famous. > > As far as the public knows, he had an undistinguished military career as a low-rank courier, and then he was given a sinecure job as an auditor. > > Sure an auditor has a lot of power, but so does the chairman of the fed. How many chairmen of the fed can you name without looking it up? > > We know Miles was a lot more, but most of that stuff is not public, at all. In time most will be declassified. __ What is the difference between unethical and ethical advertising? Unethical advertising uses falsehoods to deceive the public; ethical advertising uses truth to deceive the public. Vilhjalmur Stefansson (1879 ? 1962) From proto at panix.com Sun Oct 10 13:30:25 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 08:30:25 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: <1jdzUMF54xMKxHY27LCkMRxGO24148fKNmpPC-bhDsSEOLAw2MrPwFibYW6HduZTQgxHyTad1XxQitSKVjRsKLtadrhVFOxRlT4Jp38KtFw=@protonmail.com> References: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> <1jdzUMF54xMKxHY27LCkMRxGO24148fKNmpPC-bhDsSEOLAw2MrPwFibYW6HduZTQgxHyTad1XxQitSKVjRsKLtadrhVFOxRlT4Jp38KtFw=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <262609D8-25C2-4A10-8CDF-4037A9144590@panix.com> > On Oct 10, 2021, at 4:41 AM, Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > > More ominous was another where a black and a white man ran in and the white man stabbed the black man. When interviewed afterwards more than half the class recalled that the black man had stabbed the white man. That was in the 70s, I'd like to hope that if it were repeated today the results would be different. > > Peter Hews Back in the 1960s, my PSYC100 course, made a point of the unreliability of eyewitness testimony. But juries eat it up. The past is based on memory and imagination, the projected future is based on that, so we only have the pure present which eludes our grasp. __ What is the difference between unethical and ethical advertising? Unethical advertising uses falsehoods to deceive the public; ethical advertising uses truth to deceive the public. Vilhjalmur Stefansson (1879 ? 1962) From egern at protonmail.com Sun Oct 10 13:37:19 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 12:37:19 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Saturday, October 9th, 2021 at 2:34 PM, brazee wrote: > > On Oct 9, 2021, at 4:50 AM, tidsel via Lois-Bujold lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk wrote: > > > > As for Quidditch, it is not meant to be 'rational', for god's sake, you might as well complain that a fairy tale is not realistic. > > It wouldn?t have been hard to make it rational and fit what she was trying to do. She was lazy. What was she trying to do, in your opinion? It is a bit easy to just say an author is 'lazy', don't you think? T From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sun Oct 10 13:45:31 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 12:45:31 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Saturday, October 9th, 2021 at 14:34, brazee wrote: > > It wouldn?t have been hard to make it rational and fit what she was trying to do. She was lazy. Rowling's world building was anything but "lazy." She could have adopted the generic Middle-Earth template used by almost all modern fantasy writers; instead she built her mythology from the ground up from British folklore and Classical legend. People have written books about the background and only made a start. Example among many: she knew that in traditional English country tales, "elves" are little folk like goblins, so in her world that's what they are. She didn't care that to most fantasy readers the word meant Elrond and Galadriel. Her world, her rules. In her very first book she planted clues and Chekhov's guns some of which wouldn't go off till the final conclusion. She introduced incidental characters who we slowly saw grow into people we would admire or mourn. She set up story arcs that looked like jokes and turned into dramas. If it looks lazily easy to you, try it yourself. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From lmb at matija.com Sun Oct 10 14:08:13 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:08:13 +0100 Subject: [LMB] back to Spirit Ring; was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <-0zX6m6ST0tq4fUnYhsLVHSm5z3BsSl3wujXJN6rwyHXZvk86WyHdO1noHGZOAXf6P1cpwARo7SdYhb_7FRSE1UIDihRC90EbLHklumZhRM=@protonmail.com> <2B0FCF0C-28AA-4020-82D2-4DD3D582E2BB@comcast.net> <1D0AF104-D33C-4746-8E81-19350D853CB9@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: On 10/10/2021 13:21, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > In time most will be declassified. Sure, but that's not how fame works. Yes, we can read the books about secret agents and their exploits during WW2, but none of them are as famous as the politicians or even the generals. From wawenri at msn.com Sun Oct 10 15:05:18 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:05:18 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Pastimes Message-ID: I wonder how many people have as strange a way to pass time as I do. IIRC, someone mentioned tracking down all of the links in an article. I will browse odd YouTube science and mathematics videos a try to check them with other sources. Occasionally, I will branch out and check on something that I think I know. Sometimes I find that I was wrong. Recently ,I looked at a video about how mathematics, computer science, and quantum entanglement were related. The math was bey me but I checked on something that I thought I knew. I thought that the least time in which anything could happen was a fermi. I was wrong. A fermi is a unit of distance 10 to the -15 meters, about the diameter of a nucleus. The unit of time is a jiffy, the time it takes light to travel one fermi. Totally useless information in everyday conversation, but I like learning things. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From wawenri at msn.com Sun Oct 10 15:15:25 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:15:25 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would be a potential organ donor, however, I am disqualified due to a false positive HIV test about 40 years ago. I can?t even donate blood and I was up to about 10 gallons. Gayle can?t donate either since she had hepatitis. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sent: Saturday, October 9, 2021 9:32:03 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Cloning? On Sun, 10 Oct 2021, Joel Polowin wrote: > I don't have a problem with cloned *parts* being grown, like the organs > described in LMB's books: Miles's new organs, Professora Vorthys's > heart, and so on. I'm not even terribly offended by the idea of an > acephalic body being grown for organs to be harvested from. I hate the > idea of a person being brought to maturity for that purpose with a mind, > and then killed. Strongly agreed - not that I need anything right now, but... I'd like knee and hip joints cloned too. The current situation leads to people making public special pleas for kidney donors, which is wrong in itself. There should be not a shortage of organs (and yes, I've fully filled out my after-death organ donor card.) Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb6e997caff5f4a8b60d408d98b9e8ccf%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637694335355370360%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=yrMPflDE68A9LKDc%2ByMpYh%2F3mJR8xaVsiJzDD6u65YU%3D&reserved=0 From wawenri at msn.com Sun Oct 10 15:20:49 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:20:49 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are many drugs that have different uses. At one time my mother-in-law was prescribed the same drug as her dog. I think that the constant calling of this medication as?horse dewormer? is political and specifically US politics. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2021 5:35:26 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Cc: Peter Hews Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 12:55, Jason Long wrote: > That horse dewormer has a primary anti-parasitic use in humans. Its > > discoverers won a Nobel Prize. See https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FIvermectin&data=04%7C01%7C%7C62cbc57520b4407ba9a608d98be2150c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637694625395177169%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=ZpJY8sZIXgJeu4XocHJWgYwRs0Wptg2mfvDX0WIUnWM%3D&reserved=0 It has also shown serious promise as an anti-viral. Many drugs have more than one useful effect. Viagra was first developed as a heart medication. Not everything the alt-right supports is nonsense. Even a stopped clock is right sometimes. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C62cbc57520b4407ba9a608d98be2150c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637694625395187126%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=ECAyMLkVBwHvtvtfH4GfgTqVN4rQC89utEIB1o1vaeY%3D&reserved=0 From lmb at matija.com Sun Oct 10 15:34:28 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 15:34:28 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3b8ee42d-5675-3333-6678-c216a922a758@matija.com> On 10/10/2021 15:20, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > There are many drugs that have different uses. At one time my mother-in-law was prescribed the same drug as her dog. > I think that the constant calling of this medication as?horse dewormer? is political and specifically US politics. Unfortunately, the idiots who take horse medicine in the false hope to be protected from a disease from which they'd be better protected by a vaccine, are not confined to the US. I wish they were. From kawyle at att.net Sun Oct 10 15:41:18 2021 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:41:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <62881C5F-7BAA-4141-A608-6EBD765EAFCF@brazee.net> <504914469.785886.1633791062291@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <946938831.934664.1633876878814@mail.yahoo.com> I greatly enjoyed the Harry Potter books, as did my kids. I'm also a multi-decade fan of both SF and fantasy, and I have certain views on what fantasy should and shouldn't do. Hence I chime in when that general topic arises. Karen A. Wyle On Sunday, October 10, 2021, 07:32:41 AM EDT, tidsel via Lois-Bujold wrote: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? > > On Saturday, October 9, 2021, 10:47:24 AM EDT, brazee howard at brazee.net wrote: I am a bit amazed - this woman has gotten thousands of kids off the games and into reading for the first time, including incidentally my own stepson, and it has opened up topics no one talked about. Wildly popular books written at first by a desperate mom to get by. And all you can do is raise your teacher fingers and say 'fy fy - you make mistakes and fantasy does not mean that you just use your imagination, of course - there has be RULES.' From howard at brazee.net Sun Oct 10 17:06:13 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 10:06:13 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B989810-7D8D-4E1A-A459-69B0DB9B4827@brazee.net> > On Oct 10, 2021, at 6:37 AM, tidsel via Lois-Bujold wrote: > >>> As for Quidditch, it is not meant to be 'rational', for god's sake, you might as well complain that a fairy tale is not realistic. >> >> It wouldn?t have been hard to make it rational and fit what she was trying to do. She was lazy. > > What was she trying to do, in your opinion? > It is a bit easy to just say an author is 'lazy', don't you think? She wanted a game where the protagonist could be the hero. She didn?t bother to think through the rules and realize that the rest of the game was meaningless. Well, I expect other people told her that, so she showed us that it isn?t *absolutely* meaningless. But I little thought or some peer review could have allowed her to have her desired effect without the problem. From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Sun Oct 10 17:40:40 2021 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 09:40:40 -0700 Subject: [LMB] back to Spirit Ring; was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <-0zX6m6ST0tq4fUnYhsLVHSm5z3BsSl3wujXJN6rwyHXZvk86WyHdO1noHGZOAXf6P1cpwARo7SdYhb_7FRSE1UIDihRC90EbLHklumZhRM=@protonmail.com> <2B0FCF0C-28AA-4020-82D2-4DD3D582E2BB@comcast.net> <1D0AF104-D33C-4746-8E81-19350D853CB9@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: <39499258-B134-4A71-A21F-413B0EAB4D83@comcast.net> On Oct 10, 2021, at 6:08 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > On 10/10/2021 13:21, WalterStuartBushell wrote: >> In time most will be declassified. > Sure, but that's not how fame works. Yes, we can read the books about secret agents and their exploits during WW2, but none of them are as famous as the politicians or even the generals. Miles?s forte was covert operations, thus his WWII analog would be somebody like Otto Skorzeny, who was somewhat notorious. "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 17:42:22 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 12:42:22 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Education, was Spirit Ring - Fathers & Daughters In-Reply-To: References: <38DB6010-D240-497A-AACB-379C228336F7@panix.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 12:56 AM Eric Oppen wrote: > Have you thought of comic books? > No, but I have seriously considered looking for Harry Potter in other languages. A simple storyline (especially the first few books), widely translated, and I'm awfully curious about what they did with "wizard" words. Sylvia > > > I know my local library has books with simple vocabularies that are > > > designed for adults to help them to learn to read or improve their > > reading > > > skill by giving them something worthwhile. > > > > > > Alayne > > > > > I could use some books for adults, with simple vocabularies and good > > grammar, in the languages I am learning on Duolingo. > From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 17:56:09 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 12:56:09 -0400 Subject: [LMB] back to Spirit Ring; was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <-0zX6m6ST0tq4fUnYhsLVHSm5z3BsSl3wujXJN6rwyHXZvk86WyHdO1noHGZOAXf6P1cpwARo7SdYhb_7FRSE1UIDihRC90EbLHklumZhRM=@protonmail.com> <2B0FCF0C-28AA-4020-82D2-4DD3D582E2BB@comcast.net> <1D0AF104-D33C-4746-8E81-19350D853CB9@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 1:39 AM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On 10/10/2021 02:31, Sylvia McIvers wrote: > > And one day.... one day Aral VorK will be known mainly for being Miles > > VorK's father. > > Oh yes, all manner of hubris. > > Will he? Aral was a general, a regent and a long-time prime minister, > very public offices, and he made history while in them. > > Miles' most glorious achievements are classified, and therefore won't > make him famous. > And therefore: Hubris. The quote is from Miles to Ekaterine (don't know which book, probably ACC) in which he is admitting a dream of his - which will likely never come true. And yet, one can dream. From egern at protonmail.com Sun Oct 10 18:06:29 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 17:06:29 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <2B989810-7D8D-4E1A-A459-69B0DB9B4827@brazee.net> References: <2B989810-7D8D-4E1A-A459-69B0DB9B4827@brazee.net> Message-ID: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 6:06 PM, brazee wrote: > > On Oct 10, 2021, at 6:37 AM, tidsel via Lois-Bujold lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk wrote: > > > > > > As for Quidditch, it is not meant to be 'rational', for god's sake, you might as well complain that a fairy tale is not realistic. > > > > > > It wouldn?t have been hard to make it rational and fit what she was trying to do. She was lazy. > > > > What was she trying to do, in your opinion? > > > > It is a bit easy to just say an author is 'lazy', don't you think? > > She wanted a game where the protagonist could be the hero. She didn?t bother to think through the rules and realize that the rest of the game was meaningless. Well, I expect other people told her that, so she showed us that it isn?t absolutely meaningless. But I little thought or some peer review could have allowed her to have her desired effect without the problem. I would never deny that there are holes in her stories, especially with the game and the muggle world. But in the first case, when giving an opinion of a book you should look at the whole book - or books - not just what is wrong with it, like a teacher with a big fat red pencil. She was a single mom trying desperately to pay the rent, which in my head does not rime with 'lazy' and 'did not bother to'. And secondly the books are hugely successful and have meant a lot to a lot of people of all ages, and there are reasons for that, not least that she got better and better at it, as authors normally do. T From fishman at panix.com Sun Oct 10 18:08:49 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 17:08:49 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: <23DBE0F0-A04F-43AB-9D05-B3F3C56A0049@panix.com> References: <23DBE0F0-A04F-43AB-9D05-B3F3C56A0049@panix.com> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "WalterStuartBushell" To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 10/10/2021 7:41:46 AM Subject: Re: [LMB] Cloning? > > >> On Oct 9, 2021, at 6:53 PM, Harvey Fishman wrote: >> >> Dolly was euthanized at six years due to a progressive lung disease that was not related to her cloning. >> >> Harvey > >How do we know it wasn?t related to her cloning? Obviously, we don't. However, the evidence that I have found (Wikipedia) showed that many other cloned sheep, including those from the same heritage as Dolly, did not suffer from the same problem. Applying Occam's Razor, we arrive at the conclusion that the cloning was not the cause of the disease. Harvey > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 18:12:43 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 12:12:43 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When I first got my driver's license, back in 1978 or so, they asked me if I wanted to fill out an organ donor card. I did so right there on the spot and I still carry one today in my wallet. On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 9:15 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > I would be a potential organ donor, however, I am disqualified due to a > false positive HIV test about 40 years ago. I can?t even donate blood and I > was up to about 10 gallons. > Gayle can?t donate either since she had hepatitis. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > Sent: Saturday, October 9, 2021 9:32:03 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [LMB] Cloning? > > On Sun, 10 Oct 2021, Joel Polowin wrote: > > I don't have a problem with cloned *parts* being grown, like the organs > > described in LMB's books: Miles's new organs, Professora Vorthys's > > heart, and so on. I'm not even terribly offended by the idea of an > > acephalic body being grown for organs to be harvested from. I hate the > > idea of a person being brought to maturity for that purpose with a mind, > > and then killed. > > Strongly agreed - not that I need anything right now, but... I'd like knee > and hip joints cloned too. > > The current situation leads to people making public special pleas for > kidney donors, which is wrong in itself. There should be not a shortage of > organs (and yes, I've fully filled out my after-death organ donor card.) > > Alayne > > -- > Alayne McGregor > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > > What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We > need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the > institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate > and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb6e997caff5f4a8b60d408d98b9e8ccf%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637694335355370360%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=yrMPflDE68A9LKDc%2ByMpYh%2F3mJR8xaVsiJzDD6u65YU%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sun Oct 10 18:18:13 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 17:18:13 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Gwynne Powell? Message-ID: <3-B7nc4TFS-DfJMhMCBiHNzVHlpZviabe_jyBHxmJKv0P2EbiWxRUwQ5btMS8_KjPlWLF6quesAiOCIZ9HL3dpOh4sG_D9e_g6wBFTBptgU=@protonmail.com> Just wondering if you're still here? Haven't see anything from you for weeks. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com/) Secure Email. From fishman at panix.com Sun Oct 10 18:47:23 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 17:47:23 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Pastimes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" To: "Dendarri List" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 10/10/2021 10:05:18 AM Subject: [LMB] OT: Pastimes >I wonder how many people have as strange a way to pass time as I do. IIRC, someone mentioned tracking down all of the links in an article. >I will browse odd YouTube science and mathematics videos a try to check them with other sources. Occasionally, I will branch out and check on something that I think I know. Sometimes I find that I was wrong. >Recently ,I looked at a video about how mathematics, computer science, and quantum entanglement were related. The math was bey me but I checked on something that I thought I knew. I thought that the least time in which anything could happen was a fermi. I was wrong. A fermi is a unit of distance 10 to the -15 meters, about the diameter of a nucleus. The unit of time is a jiffy, the time it takes light to travel one fermi. >Totally useless information in everyday conversation, but I like learning things. > >William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. Thanks for that information. I found it very interesting. Harvey From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sun Oct 10 18:52:29 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 17:52:29 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: <3b8ee42d-5675-3333-6678-c216a922a758@matija.com> References: <3b8ee42d-5675-3333-6678-c216a922a758@matija.com> Message-ID: On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 16:34, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > On 10/10/2021 15:20, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > > There are many drugs that have different uses. At one time my mother-in-law was prescribed the same drug as her dog. > > > > I think that the constant calling of this medication as?horse dewormer? is political and specifically US politics. > > Unfortunately, the idiots who take horse medicine in the false hope to > > be protected from a disease from which they'd be better protected by a > > vaccine, are not confined to the US. I wish they were. > Speaking as an idiot who has had some in the refrigrator for the last year, as a last-ditch treatment if our protections failed, I didn't take my guidance from Trump but from European and African researchers. The substitution of political belief for scientific evidence is not confined to the right. I got my vaccinations as soon as I could, but I'm keeping my "horse wormer" just in case, because 80% protection is not certainty. And for a great many people in Africa vaccination is still not an available option; so their doctors (being ignorant savages) use what they have empirically established works, without waiting for the blessing of the WHO. Doctors in France have done the same when desperate, and it worked there too. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From tlambs1138 at charter.net Sun Oct 10 19:19:27 2021 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:19:27 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Education, was Spirit Ring - Fathers & Daughters Message-ID: <02b901d7be03$5eeda190$1cc8e4b0$@charter.net> I know there's a Spanish version of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, because I bought it as a Christmas present for someone who was studying Spanish at the time. I also know there's a French version, because I run into French fans at times who did not read it in English. I might add that Fanfiction.net has a lot of Harry Potter stories multiple languages and you can pick the length; sometimes I read very short Harry Potter stories in French just to see if I can still figure out what they say. I haven't checked for myself yet, but I would imagine that the Star Trek section of FFN has multiple languages as well. Jean Lamb tlambs1138 at charter.net https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20 From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sun Oct 10 19:24:34 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 18:24:34 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Miles' fame (was: back to Spirit Ring; was Heinlein Message-ID: <7HGEm6lY46_djlwwflp-lWyDTvR3qVkkegbX065nH4sR-jXbJ4ejbK-KUE_2LkdMSVa1XY1wi1Nxq6_GBBPoI__18IZD63904EXYe-h4ieM=@protonmail.com> On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 18:40, Robert Woodward wrote: > On Oct 10, 2021, at 6:08 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk wrote: > > > On 10/10/2021 13:21, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > > > > In time most will be declassified. > > > > > > Sure, but that's not how fame works. Yes, we can read the books about secret agents and their exploits during WW2, but none of them are as famous as the politicians or even the generals. > > Miles?s forte was covert operations, thus his WWII analog would be somebody like Otto Skorzeny, who was somewhat notorious. > Remember Cordelia's embarrassment at the Betan vid-drama presenting her as the heroine of the Escobar war? It occurs to me that if some Betan producer were researching the amazing exploits of the mysterious Admiral Naismith (who always claimed to be from Beta,) and made the same deductions as the Cetagandans about a minor Barrayaran Captain, there could be a whole spectacular vid-drama series about him. And as with Cordelia's story, the fact that the events were classified utter top secret on Barrayar wouldn't stop Barrayarans watching it. He could end up more famous than he ever wanted, and wouldn't his mother laugh. I hand the plot over to our talented fanfiction authors! Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From fishman at panix.com Sun Oct 10 19:37:39 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 18:37:39 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <2B989810-7D8D-4E1A-A459-69B0DB9B4827@brazee.net> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "tidsel via Lois-Bujold" To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Cc: "tidsel" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 10/10/2021 1:06:29 PM Subject: Re: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein > > >Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > >??????? Original Message ??????? > >On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 6:06 PM, brazee wrote: > >> > On Oct 10, 2021, at 6:37 AM, tidsel via Lois-Bujold lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk wrote: >> > >> > > > As for Quidditch, it is not meant to be 'rational', for god's sake, you might as well complain that a fairy tale is not realistic. >> > > >> > > It wouldn?t have been hard to make it rational and fit what she was trying to do. She was lazy. >> > >> > What was she trying to do, in your opinion? >> > >> > It is a bit easy to just say an author is 'lazy', don't you think? >> >> She wanted a game where the protagonist could be the hero. She didn?t bother to think through the rules and realize that the rest of the game was meaningless. Well, I expect other people told her that, so she showed us that it isn?t absolutely meaningless. But I little thought or some peer review could have allowed her to have her desired effect without the problem. > >I would never deny that there are holes in her stories, especially with the game and the muggle world. But in the first case, when giving an opinion of a book you should look at the whole book - or books - not just what is wrong with it, like a teacher with a big fat red pencil. She was a single mom trying desperately to pay the rent, which in my head does not rime with 'lazy' and 'did not bother to'. And secondly the books are hugely successful and have meant a lot to a lot of people of all ages, and there are reasons for that, not least that she got better and better at it, as authors normally do. > >T I do not care what anyone says!! I enjoyed the books!!!!!! Harvey From proto at panix.com Sun Oct 10 20:15:24 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 15:15:24 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <2B989810-7D8D-4E1A-A459-69B0DB9B4827@brazee.net> Message-ID: <12994A1C-1DBA-41D0-8872-19D3437B89E4@panix.com> > On Oct 10, 2021, at 2:37 PM, Harvey Fishman wrote: > > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "tidsel via Lois-Bujold" > To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." > Cc: "tidsel" > Bcc: fishman at panix.com > Sent: 10/10/2021 1:06:29 PM > Subject: Re: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein > >> >> >> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. >> >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> >> On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 6:06 PM, brazee wrote: >> >>> > On Oct 10, 2021, at 6:37 AM, tidsel via Lois-Bujold lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk wrote: >>> > >>> > > > As for Quidditch, it is not meant to be 'rational', for god's sake, you might as well complain that a fairy tale is not realistic. >>> > > >>> > > It wouldn?t have been hard to make it rational and fit what she was trying to do. She was lazy. >>> > >>> > What was she trying to do, in your opinion? >>> > >>> > It is a bit easy to just say an author is 'lazy', don't you think? >>> >>> She wanted a game where the protagonist could be the hero. She didn?t bother to think through the rules and realize that the rest of the game was meaningless. Well, I expect other people told her that, so she showed us that it isn?t absolutely meaningless. But I little thought or some peer review could have allowed her to have her desired effect without the problem. >> >> I would never deny that there are holes in her stories, especially with the game and the muggle world. But in the first case, when giving an opinion of a book you should look at the whole book - or books - not just what is wrong with it, like a teacher with a big fat red pencil. She was a single mom trying desperately to pay the rent, which in my head does not rime with 'lazy' and 'did not bother to'. And secondly the books are hugely successful and have meant a lot to a lot of people of all ages, and there are reasons for that, not least that she got better and better at it, as authors normally do. >> >> T > I do not care what anyone says!! I enjoyed the books!!!!!! > > Harvey > > The Jubal Harshaw evaluation of writing; will people buy it. From wawenri at msn.com Sun Oct 10 21:21:46 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 20:21:46 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: AIHABF Message-ID: The fiesta ended today and all of my granddaughters, my DIL, and I all got to fly this year. The balloons launched every day until Saturday, seven out of the nine days is better than average. Anna was very nervous about flying but when she saw her cousin Elanor fly for the first time she wanted to fly too. It helped that her Aunt Lizzie flew at the same time. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From margdean56 at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 21:37:34 2021 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:37:34 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <-Z78L7UbbA2cd72j4QDn1AB4_B86qVEThp3KQt7iAT-5HBZElXk4acm9xsJt6PyvRDYzsbfSRtWTCCndY-4Zw9c6pRfj5ZtOtfTggKc5CQE=@protonmail.com> References: <-Z78L7UbbA2cd72j4QDn1AB4_B86qVEThp3KQt7iAT-5HBZElXk4acm9xsJt6PyvRDYzsbfSRtWTCCndY-4Zw9c6pRfj5ZtOtfTggKc5CQE=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 6:18 AM Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > "Fairy tales are not meant to tell children there are monsters: they > already know what. Fairy tales are to tell them the monsters can be > defeated." - Tolkien > I believe that's a G.K. Chesterton quote (or paraphrase), actually. --Margaret Dean From becca7108 at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 21:41:43 2021 From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 16:41:43 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <-Z78L7UbbA2cd72j4QDn1AB4_B86qVEThp3KQt7iAT-5HBZElXk4acm9xsJt6PyvRDYzsbfSRtWTCCndY-4Zw9c6pRfj5ZtOtfTggKc5CQE=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: I've also seen it attributed to Neil Gaiman On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 4:38 PM Margaret Dean wrote: > On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 6:18 AM Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > "Fairy tales are not meant to tell children there are monsters: they > > already know what. Fairy tales are to tell them the monsters can be > > defeated." - Tolkien > > > > I believe that's a G.K. Chesterton quote (or paraphrase), actually. > > > --Margaret Dean > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to becca7108 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sun Oct 10 21:59:15 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 16:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <-Z78L7UbbA2cd72j4QDn1AB4_B86qVEThp3KQt7iAT-5HBZElXk4acm9xsJt6PyvRDYzsbfSRtWTCCndY-4Zw9c6pRfj5ZtOtfTggKc5CQE=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: Supposedly the real quote is: "Fairy tales, then, are not responsible for producing in children fear, or any of the shapes of fear; fairy tales do not give the child the idea of the evil or the ugly; that is in the child already, because it is in the world already. Fairy tales do not give the child his first idea of bogey. What fairy tales give the child is his first clear idea of the possible defeat of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon. Exactly what the fairy tale does is this: it accustoms him for a series of clear pictures to the idea that these limitless terrors had a limit, that these shapeless enemies have enemies in the knights of God, that there is something in the universe more mystical than darkness, and stronger than strong fear." - G. K. Chesterton, Tremendous Trifles (1909) I have a copy of that Chesterton book, so could verify this, but not til later this week. Or maybe the book's in Project Gutenberg? Alayne On Sun, 10 Oct 2021, Becca Price wrote: > I've also seen it attributed to Neil Gaiman > > On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 4:38 PM Margaret Dean wrote: > >> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 6:18 AM Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold < >> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> "Fairy tales are not meant to tell children there are monsters: they >>> already know what. Fairy tales are to tell them the monsters can be >>> defeated." - Tolkien >>> >> >> I believe that's a G.K. Chesterton quote (or paraphrase), actually. >> >> >> --Margaret Dean >> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to becca7108 at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> > -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 22:40:57 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 16:40:57 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: AIHABF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You luck! I've always wanted to fly in a balloon! On Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 3:21 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > The fiesta ended today and all of my granddaughters, my DIL, and I all got > to fly this year. The balloons launched every day until Saturday, seven out > of the nine days is better than average. > Anna was very nervous about flying but when she saw her cousin Elanor fly > for the first time she wanted to fly too. It helped that her Aunt Lizzie > flew at the same time. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From kcollett at hamilton.edu Sun Oct 10 22:57:24 2021 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Katherine Collett) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 17:57:24 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Fairy tales, OT: was Rowling In-Reply-To: References: <-Z78L7UbbA2cd72j4QDn1AB4_B86qVEThp3KQt7iAT-5HBZElXk4acm9xsJt6PyvRDYzsbfSRtWTCCndY-4Zw9c6pRfj5ZtOtfTggKc5CQE=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <097C48DA-85E6-4CF9-A3E0-E697C39993BE@hamilton.edu> On Oct 10, 2021, at 4:41 PM, Becca Price wrote: >>> >>> "Fairy tales are not meant to tell children there are monsters: they >>> already know what. Fairy tales are to tell them the monsters can be >>> defeated." > > I've also seen it attributed to Neil Gaiman There's a similar exchange in Pratchett's Hogfather (or anyway, the quoted passage reminds me of the Pratchett one): "You're saying humans need fantasies to make life bearable?..." "... NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN." But back to the fairy tale quotation -- it looks like the original source is indeed Chesterton _as paraphrased by_ Neil Gaiman! In Coraline, Gaiman says "Fairy tales are more than true ? not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten," credited to Chesterton. More discussion here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1407558-misattributed-quote Katherine From maireg83 at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 22:58:41 2021 From: maireg83 at gmail.com (Sue Nicholson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 10:58:41 +1300 Subject: [LMB] Miles' fame (was: back to Spirit Ring; was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <7HGEm6lY46_djlwwflp-lWyDTvR3qVkkegbX065nH4sR-jXbJ4ejbK-KUE_2LkdMSVa1XY1wi1Nxq6_GBBPoI__18IZD63904EXYe-h4ieM=@protonmail.com> References: <7HGEm6lY46_djlwwflp-lWyDTvR3qVkkegbX065nH4sR-jXbJ4ejbK-KUE_2LkdMSVa1XY1wi1Nxq6_GBBPoI__18IZD63904EXYe-h4ieM=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: > > > > > Miles?s forte was covert operations, thus his WWII analog would be > somebody like Otto Skorzeny, who was somewhat notorious. > > Yes, but didn't someone make a vid about the Dagoola breakout? That would up his public profile across the whole nexus. SueN From dbernat at gol.com Mon Oct 11 01:25:33 2021 From: dbernat at gol.com (dbernat) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 09:25:33 +0900 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <0C669C72-DF9A-4789-9229-A56FD0CACEFA@brazee.net> <51438824e0c73ca6e7762ac98e2398c8@gol.com> Message-ID: Eric Oppen wrote: > I know what you mean about Japan and China. I used to love James > Clavell's novels, but no more. Recommendations: An Insular Possession books by Isabella Bird books by Frank Brinkley From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 03:18:21 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 21:18:21 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: <0C669C72-DF9A-4789-9229-A56FD0CACEFA@brazee.net> <51438824e0c73ca6e7762ac98e2398c8@gol.com> Message-ID: What turned me off Clavell was finding out that his Japanese and Chinese names made N-O sense in those languages, and were nothing like real names in those languages. The characters in question were based off of real life people (Toranaga, i*n Shogun,* was based off the first Tokugawa Shogun) so why not just use them? However, that's nothing to my reaction to *A Day No Pigs Would Die. Tha**t *was the only book I ever openly rebelled against in school. On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 7:25 PM dbernat wrote: > Eric Oppen wrote: > > > I know what you mean about Japan and China. I used to love James > > Clavell's novels, but no more. > > Recommendations: > > An Insular Possession > books by Isabella Bird > books by Frank Brinkley > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alzurite at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 04:05:47 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 23:05:47 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Education, was Spirit Ring Message-ID: Sylvia said: > No, but I have seriously considered looking for Harry Potter in other > languages. A simple storyline (especially the first few books), widely > translated, and I'm awfully curious about what they did with "wizard" > words. I have read the first book in Espseranto. It was fun. It translated well. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From alzurite at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 04:12:46 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 23:12:46 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT monsters quote Message-ID: Re the quote about fairy tales and monsters which was so good I copied it -, even though it didn't sound like Tolkien to me - Becca said: I've also seen it attributed to Neil Gaiman So I looked it up and voila: > https://mahoundsparadise.blogspot.com/2016/05/tracking-back-that-chesterton.html At least it wasn't attributed to Shakespeare. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From litalex at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 05:55:26 2021 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 00:55:26 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: <352b2f11-4ff2-9f11-fc47-cc9f79a52f6f@matija.com> References: <352b2f11-4ff2-9f11-fc47-cc9f79a52f6f@matija.com> Message-ID: Hello, > On Oct 10, 2021, at 01:24, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > Cloning an existing person in the hope that the clone will continue on the same path once the original dies? Very likely to end in tears, because we are not just a product of our genes, but also our experiences/environment, and the one the clone will experience will be different from the one the original got. I think that?s the plot of C J Cherryh?s Cyteen? little Alex From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 06:05:01 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 00:05:01 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: <352b2f11-4ff2-9f11-fc47-cc9f79a52f6f@matija.com> Message-ID: Not to mention *The Boys from Brazil*. On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 11:55 PM Alex Kwan wrote: > Hello, > > > On Oct 10, 2021, at 01:24, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > Cloning an existing person in the hope that the clone will continue on > the same path once the original dies? Very likely to end in tears, because > we are not just a product of our genes, but also our > experiences/environment, and the one the clone will experience will be > different from the one the original got. > > I think that?s the plot of C J Cherryh?s Cyteen? > > little Alex > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From jpolowin at hotmail.com Mon Oct 11 07:12:00 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 06:12:00 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT Rowling (not Rawling) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Peter Hews wrote: > Aren't they? I saw it, like the weird currency, as Carrolian absurdity > not meant to make sense - something children appreciate much more > than most adults. You might as well complain that the White Knight's > inventions would never work. I'm sure that a lot of it was intentional absurdity. To me, it stretched plausibility a bit too far -- it was hard to accept that "real" people would put up with some of the more dangerous incongruities. Too high a proportion of wizards would have to be idiots. They weren't supposed to be fantastic bizarre creatures in a dreamlike world; they were supposed to be rational beings with jobs, living lives that could be compared to ours. And one must remember that Carroll's books were intended for readers of all ages. There's a *lot* of satirical stuff and cultural references that would only be caught by adults, though nowadays almost nobody would recognise them. I recommend Martin Gardner's _The Annotated Alice_. Joel From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 09:58:05 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 03:58:05 -0500 Subject: [LMB] RE (LMB) OT Gwynne In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I hope Gwynne is okay. We haven't heard from her for awhile. Is there anybody nearby who can check on her? On Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 10:13 PM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Re the quote about fairy tales and monsters which was so good I copied it > -, even though it didn't sound like Tolkien to me - > > Becca said: > > I've also seen it attributed to Neil Gaiman > > So I looked it up and voila: > > > > > https://mahoundsparadise.blogspot.com/2016/05/tracking-back-that-chesterton.html > > At least it wasn't attributed to Shakespeare. > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Oct 11 11:11:36 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 11:11:36 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 23:32:03 -0400 (EDT), alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: > >Strongly agreed - not that I need anything right now, but... I'd like knee >and hip joints cloned too. We have very satisfactory replacements already, to be fair. I'm not sure how you'd clone just a joint, anyway: it would have to be mechanically bonded to the surrounding bone in some manner. If there is a limited budget for such research - and isn't there always - I think soft organ cloning is far more urgent. -- My house looks like I'm losing a game of Jumanji. ? Li'l Edie Pentland (@JennyPentland) From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Oct 11 11:18:17 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 11:18:17 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT monsters quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 23:12:46 -0400, Elizabeth Holden wrote: >Re the quote about fairy tales and monsters which was so good I copied it >-, even though it didn't sound like Tolkien to me - > >Becca said: > >I've also seen it attributed to Neil Gaiman > >So I looked it up and voila: > >> >https://mahoundsparadise.blogspot.com/2016/05/tracking-back-that-chesterton.html > >At least it wasn't attributed to Shakespeare. This is one case where the "cover version" is better than the original cut; at the very least, snappier. -- My house looks like I'm losing a game of Jumanji. ? Li'l Edie Pentland (@JennyPentland) From lmb at matija.com Mon Oct 11 13:06:58 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 13:06:58 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: References: <3b8ee42d-5675-3333-6678-c216a922a758@matija.com> Message-ID: <503282ac-7634-49c4-5287-7f7902a3c323@matija.com> On 10/10/2021 18:52, Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold wrote: > Speaking as an idiot who has had some in the refrigrator for the last year, as a last-ditch treatment if our protections failed Oh yeah? The human variant or the veterinary one? > , I didn't take my guidance from Trump but from European and African researchers. The substitution of political belief for scientific evidence is not confined to the right. I did not mention Trump, or conservatives, so why bring them up? But since you say you took guidance from researchers, did you read the papers yourself? Or did you read summaries of summaries? > I got my vaccinations as soon as I could, but I'm keeping my "horse wormer" just in case, because 80% protection is not certainty. Will you be buying molnupiravir now, since you're covering all your bases? (and quibble: it's horse de-wormer, not wormer) > And for a great many people in Africa vaccination is still not an available option; so their doctors (being ignorant savages) use what they have empirically established works, without waiting for the blessing of the WHO. Doctors in France have done the same when desperate, and it worked there too. Did it work in double blind studies? How large were the studies? How large were the control groups? Or was it "we gave it to some people who were critical, and some of them survived"? From egern at protonmail.com Mon Oct 11 14:29:08 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 13:29:08 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Education, was Spirit Ring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Monday, October 11th, 2021 at 5:05 AM, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Sylvia said: > > > No, but I have seriously considered looking for Harry Potter in other > > > > languages. A simple storyline (especially the first few books), widely > > > > translated, and I'm awfully curious about what they did with "wizard" > > > > words. > > I have read the first book in Espseranto. It was fun. It translated well. > > namaste, Way to go!! :-)) T From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Oct 11 15:04:43 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:04:43 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Education, was Spirit Ring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93h8mgd7fvdd0t3tkabkid4a7kuo4qqukl@4ax.com> On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 23:05:47 -0400, Elizabeth Holden wrote: >Sylvia said: > >> No, but I have seriously considered looking for Harry Potter in other >> languages. A simple storyline (especially the first few books), widely >> translated, and I'm awfully curious about what they did with "wizard" >> words. > >I have read the first book in Espseranto. It was fun. It translated well. My daughter has the first two in Latin. -- Experience is the comb that nature gives us when we are bald. - Belgian proverb From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Oct 11 15:08:27 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:08:27 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: AIHABF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 16:40:57 -0500, Eric Oppen wrote: >You luck! I've always wanted to fly in a balloon! It's ... odd. When the burner isn't running, there's very little noise, as you're floating with the wind. You can float over someone's garden, several hundred feet up, and chat to them. The landing (which is more of a controlled crash, IME) is probably the most exciting part. -- To govern is always to choose among disadvantages. - Charles de Gaulle From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Oct 11 15:13:00 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:13:00 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT Rawling was Heinlein In-Reply-To: <80d803c6-eca2-ecb7-8c63-4520fe7de653@matija.com> References: <62881C5F-7BAA-4141-A608-6EBD765EAFCF@brazee.net> <504914469.785886.1633791062291@mail.yahoo.com> <5ko3mgll2ciforevggpnanr0usr8t14q7s@4ax.com> <80d803c6-eca2-ecb7-8c63-4520fe7de653@matija.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 21:04:45 +0100, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: >On 09/10/2021 19:44, Marc Wilson wrote: >> The snitch is needed later in the story arc, so it had to exist. The >> rules could have been marginally more sensible, though - e.g. when the >> snitch is caught, the match is over, without an effect on the score. >> >> That would have made the seekers' roles more strategic - the side >> currently losing would be keen to block the winning side's seeker, >> rather than catch it themselves. > >Oooh, I like that idea. Simple and elegant and seamless. I try to be all three, with varying degrees of success. I mean, who wants to be seamy? :) > >The other thing that annoyed me was the house scores. I have this >impression that in each year, Gryffindor would be lagging behind other >houses, and then they would get awarded just enough points to win for >some spurious, ad-hoc reason. > >Even though I was rooting for Harry's house, it offended my sense of >fairness. This. Some of the solutions seemed a bit .... lawyery. I have the same issue with some of Piers Antony's work, where a bit of glib speech and some handwavium reverses an obvious outcome. -- To govern is always to choose among disadvantages. - Charles de Gaulle From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Oct 11 15:19:25 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:19:25 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: <3b8ee42d-5675-3333-6678-c216a922a758@matija.com> References: <3b8ee42d-5675-3333-6678-c216a922a758@matija.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 15:34:28 +0100, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: >On 10/10/2021 15:20, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >> There are many drugs that have different uses. At one time my mother-in-law was prescribed the same drug as her dog. >> I think that the constant calling of this medication as?horse dewormer? is political and specifically US politics. >Unfortunately, the idiots who take horse medicine in the false hope to >be protected from a disease from which they'd be better protected by a >vaccine, are not confined to the US. I wish they were. You're not wrong, sadly. We have plenty of AntiVa CovIdiots in the UK. -- To govern is always to choose among disadvantages. - Charles de Gaulle From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Oct 11 15:20:43 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:20:43 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: References: <3b8ee42d-5675-3333-6678-c216a922a758@matija.com> Message-ID: <50i8mg1upt2p3i7gu1tpsklsk4ksa0nmo2@4ax.com> On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 17:52:29 +0000, Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > > >On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 16:34, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > >> On 10/10/2021 15:20, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >> >> > There are many drugs that have different uses. At one time my mother-in-law was prescribed the same drug as her dog. >> > >> > I think that the constant calling of this medication as?horse dewormer? is political and specifically US politics. >> >> Unfortunately, the idiots who take horse medicine in the false hope to >> >> be protected from a disease from which they'd be better protected by a >> >> vaccine, are not confined to the US. I wish they were. >> >Speaking as an idiot who has had some in the refrigrator for the last year, as a last-ditch treatment if our protections failed, I didn't take my guidance from Trump but from European and African researchers. The substitution of political belief for scientific evidence is not confined to the right. > >I got my vaccinations as soon as I could, but I'm keeping my "horse wormer" just in case, because 80% protection is not certainty. And for a great many people in Africa vaccination is still not an available option; so their doctors (being ignorant savages) use what they have empirically established works, without waiting for the blessing of the WHO. Doctors in France have done the same when desperate, and it worked there too. People have used whisky or rum as field-expedient antiseptics and sedatives, it doesn't mean they're optimal. -- To govern is always to choose among disadvantages. - Charles de Gaulle From tzbarasc at lasierra.edu Mon Oct 11 15:43:08 2021 From: tzbarasc at lasierra.edu (Tony Zbaraschuk) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 09:43:08 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4.ref@aol.com> <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4@aol.com> <1E67CE9B-BBFD-4C14-A9CC-123FBC0560C1@brazee.net> <73696657-7861-40C6-B5BC-CB1F464154DD@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 10:20 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > "Kingfisher" sounds interesting. A lawyer priest of a Rat god? A magic > sword with a bladder? I gotta check that out. > Strongly second the recommendation. I have a bunch of her books (whether writing as T. Kingfisher or as Ursula Vernon) and they all have wicked senses of humor and great characters. Tony Z -- Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" From tzbarasc at lasierra.edu Mon Oct 11 15:47:47 2021 From: tzbarasc at lasierra.edu (Tony Zbaraschuk) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 09:47:47 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 5:26 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Has there been any any cloning shown in the nexus except for the Jackson > Whole body Leggers (a take on organleggers which is a take on bootleggers). > In _Ethan of Athos_, it's a minor side note that the Athosians (or at least Ethan, but then he's solidly middle-of-the-road for that society) regard cloning oneself as the sin of vanity. Which is not a bad take on the matter. Does anyone think that human cloning is a good idea? I think it?s sickening. > I think it boils down to "why are you doing it?" and "how are you doing it?" There's nothing wrong with cloning _per se_, but it can be done for the wrong reasons. We have no way of adjusting length of the tolemers which would be shorter > in an adult than in an embryo. Remember, Dolly lived less than half as long > as is normal for a sheep of that breed. > It seems to me that our knowledge of the field is not yet advanced enough to reliably do human cloning with an assurance that we're not creating someone who's going to regret their creation. I suspect that this will change as the technology develops. But that only covers the "how are you doing it?" part of the ethics, not the "why are you doing it?" Tony Z -- Tony Zbaraschuk Bookworm, talker, learner Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 16:10:13 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 10:10:13 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think that, as always, Herself herself summed cloning up well: "Anybody who went out and deliberately had a clone made was a little twisted. Far better to have a child, preferably with a partner a little smarter, stronger or more able than you---that way you can have a chance of some improvement in the family." Or words to that effect---I don't have *Brothers in Arms* open before me. On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 9:48 AM Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 5:26 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > > Has there been any any cloning shown in the nexus except for the Jackson > > Whole body Leggers (a take on organleggers which is a take on > bootleggers). > > > > In _Ethan of Athos_, it's a minor side note that the Athosians (or at least > Ethan, but then he's solidly middle-of-the-road for that society) regard > cloning oneself as the sin of vanity. Which is not a bad take on the > matter. > > Does anyone think that human cloning is a good idea? I think it?s > sickening. > > > > I think it boils down to "why are you doing it?" and "how are you doing > it?" There's nothing wrong with cloning _per se_, but it can be done for > the wrong reasons. > > We have no way of adjusting length of the tolemers which would be shorter > > in an adult than in an embryo. Remember, Dolly lived less than half as > long > > as is normal for a sheep of that breed. > > > > It seems to me that our knowledge of the field is not yet advanced enough > to reliably do human cloning with an assurance that we're not creating > someone who's going to regret their creation. I suspect that this will > change as the technology develops. > But that only covers the "how are you doing it?" part of the ethics, not > the "why are you doing it?" > > Tony Z > > > > -- > Tony Zbaraschuk > Bookworm, talker, learner > Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From lmb at matija.com Mon Oct 11 16:10:57 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 16:10:57 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: References: <3b8ee42d-5675-3333-6678-c216a922a758@matija.com> Message-ID: <5bb71c97-d4c8-469e-d62e-432a128c5d29@matija.com> On 11/10/2021 15:19, Marc Wilson wrote: > You're not wrong, sadly. We have plenty of AntiVa CovIdiots in the UK. Also in Switzerland. And don't even get me started on the ones in Slovenia, where the story with their political positions is even more complicated and contradictory (and stupid). From jpolowin at hotmail.com Mon Oct 11 16:39:19 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:39:19 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Matija Grabnar wrote: > (and quibble: it's horse de-wormer, not wormer) Actually, both terms are used for the same thing, somewhat like "flammable" and "inflammable". But for those objecting to the term "horse medicine" (et al.) as being political... while there is some loading to the term, many of the idiots who are taking it on the basis of -- let's call it "poor advice" -- are taking literal horse medicine, versions that are distributed for veterinary purposes, because it's relatively available without having to deal with a doctor as gatekeeper. Some aren't even adjusting the dosages properly, based on the differences between the larger animals and humans, and are getting quite ill as a result. Joel From alzurite at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 17:39:32 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 12:39:32 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages Message-ID: Marc Wilson said, about the Harry Potter books: > My daughter has the first two in Latin. I'd like that! I do have the first one is Scots. I have Dr Seuss in Latin, and The Little Prince in English, Latin, French, and Esperanto. I have Asterix the Gaul in Latin and Esperanto (and gave a Welsh translation of it to my father for Christmas one year). Asterix is fun, but difficult. I collected Winnie-the-Pooh in Latin, German, and Esperanto. The German was a little optimistic if I thought I could read it all. But I did read some. And I have "Captain Vorpatril's Alliance" in French, which is surprisingly smooth to read. I'd like a Bujold novel in Esperanto but I don't think I'll get one unless I translate it myself. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Oct 11 18:33:16 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 18:33:16 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Pastimes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33i8mg59k8hprgqcu4vjv5qg13kucneij2@4ax.com> On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:05:18 +0000, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > >Recently ,I looked at a video about how mathematics, computer science, and quantum entanglement were related. The math was bey me but I checked on something that I thought I knew. I thought that the least time in which anything could happen was a fermi. I was wrong. A fermi is a unit of distance 10 to the -15 meters, about the diameter of a nucleus. The unit of time is a jiffy, the time it takes light to travel one fermi. The shortest meaningful length is the Planck length. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_length -- Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Oct 11 18:35:29 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 18:35:29 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 21:27:15 -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: >I suspect it might have something to do with short term memory. Basically >the brain doesn't think its important enough to store the information in >the memory banks (so to speak) that's why witnesses are so unreliable. >There is a class exercise where the students suddenly witnesses a event in >class and has to describe the incident and those involved. Many of students >get it wrong. It's also distraction (this is how "magic" works); they were instructed to take note of something else. > >On Sat, Oct 9, 2021, 1:47 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > >> On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 11:19:54 -0400, WalterStuartBushell >> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> >> On Oct 9, 2021, at 7:16 AM, Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold < >> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: >> >> >> >> "Change blindness" is often invoked in paranormal works to explain why >> people don't notice weird stuff around them. In the webcomic ?El Goonish >> Shive? a shape-shifter demonstrates it by repeatedly changing her hair >> colour when people look away, and when they look back they don?t realise >> she was a different colour before. >> > >> >This has been documented in videos. They used different people in very >> short time differences and the subject >> >didn?t seem to notice the person they were talking to had changed. >> > >> >When you are getting directions do you really care about from whom? >> >> There's a famous video where people are asked to study a basketball >> game, and only around 5% of test subjects recall that a man in a gorilla >> suit walks across the court. >> >> I *do* hope my liberty never depends on the observation skills of the >> average eyewitness. >> -- >> "Fine" doesn't mean fine. The scale goes: "Great, good, OK, not OK, >> I hate you, Fine." - Two Broke Girls >> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> -- Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Oct 11 18:38:45 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 18:38:45 +0100 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8kt8mglf4de095hg1had1d672lkavack85@4ax.com> On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 03:29:51 -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: >We used to have the same restrictions on pharmaceutical adds until the 80's >I hate them. We still have, in the UK; only OTC medications may be advertised. -- I have a lot of concerns about the leakage of classified information. I've also got a lot of concerns about the over-classification of information. - David Sanger, Chief Washington Correspondent, NYT From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Oct 11 18:39:18 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 18:39:18 +0100 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials In-Reply-To: <77cea0f1-3f04-90ca-6b85-42f291695079@matija.com> References: <77cea0f1-3f04-90ca-6b85-42f291695079@matija.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 12:37:56 +0100, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: >On 10/10/2021 11:55, Jason Long wrote: >> That horse dewormer has a primary anti-parasitic use in humans. Its >> discoverers won a Nobel Prize. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin > >The people who are taking it are not taking it because they suffer from >parasites. They kind of are: memetic ones, in their brains. -- I have a lot of concerns about the leakage of classified information. I've also got a lot of concerns about the over-classification of information. - David Sanger, Chief Washington Correspondent, NYT From c_muir68 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 11 21:27:58 2021 From: c_muir68 at hotmail.com (catherine muir) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:27:58 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Elizabeth, if you like reading Scots try the Asterix one, ?Asterix and the Pechts?. Fun! On a more twisted note, for hallowe?en, I once again call out for But and Ben a Go Go, by Matthew Fitt. Dystopian SF in Scots, what?s not to like. And a pandemic (so nothing like RL then!) Sent from Mail for Windows Marc Wilson said, about the Harry Potter books: > My daughter has the first two in Latin. Elizabeth said: <> From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 21:41:38 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 16:41:38 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> References: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 2:47 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > There's a famous video where people are asked to study a basketball > game, and only around 5% of test subjects recall that a man in a gorilla > suit walks across the court. > The details are everything: they're asked to view a video in which two groups of people in differently-colored uniforms are superimposed on each other, and asked to count the number of times one group bounced the basketball. Partly through, a person dressed in a gorilla costume walks by. When people are eliminating irrelevant stimuli in order to concentrate on salient features, they'll ignore all sorts of things, even things that they might consider noteworthy under other circumstances. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 21:48:16 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 16:48:16 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Education, was Spirit Ring - Fathers & Daughters In-Reply-To: References: <38DB6010-D240-497A-AACB-379C228336F7@panix.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 10:04 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > We got to talking and I found out he was completely illiterate. What was > worse was he didn't think > it was necessary to learn how to read. I tried to convince him to learn > but wasn't interested. > Of the two of you, who knew more about the feasibility of reading in modern American society? And *you* =argued= with him? Matt "relative expertise" G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 22:02:02 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:02:02 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 7:52 AM Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > I reference him when the topic of second draft editing comes up. > According to his letters, his normal practice at first was to write > everything that came into his head and then throw out about half of it. > But he only did this because the market demanded strict word counts in > those days, and he hated it. Once he was a big enough name that editors > couldn't dictate to him, he seems to have just published his first drafts, > with regretable results. > I've mentioned before Spider Robinson's essay on editors, found in "User Friendly", so I won't bring it up in any detail. I would note that Ayn Rand actually had similar issues, as she absolutely hated the ways producers and editors would insist on altering everything she submitted, so when she went independent she refused to use the services of an editor. Much to her works' detriment. Stephen King is another good example. The man is one of the best short horror writers in American history, because short stories require immense discipline and control of the author due to the restrictions imposed by the limited length of the form. His novels wander, not least because he "writes from the gut" and has no detailed plan or design. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 22:11:51 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:11:51 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein and Bujold In-Reply-To: <2CDBB4E1-1EE8-4BCD-BA37-35335C4F4440@brazee.net> References: <2CDBB4E1-1EE8-4BCD-BA37-35335C4F4440@brazee.net> Message-ID: There are multiple power blocs in my country who try their hardest to influence the media. Talking about "countries" misses the point, to my mind - are you talking about the government, the power group that directs the government, the rich, special interest groups? They're not the same thing, and they often work at cross purposes. They're also more opportunistic than able to execute complex conspiratorial plans, not because of incompetence but because manipulating societies is extraordinarily difficult. Think of Janet Jackson's 'wardrobe malfunction' and the consequences for American media. The absence of live broadcasts is probably considered very desirable, but imposing that without mandating it was almost certainly a happy accident rather than an arranged consequence. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 22:17:51 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:17:51 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Rowling In-Reply-To: References: <31iulgpq7ou416kefarq9f12kag627p382@4ax.com> Message-ID: A pretty good trick, given that snakes are deaf. On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 11:47 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > Of course Harry had a bit of Voldemort in him which was why he could speak > to snakes. > Obvious foreshadowing. I actually knew someone who was gobsmacked when I told her the big reveal without having read the book. It was lampshaded a dozen times in the preceding volumes! Matt G. From saffronrose at me.com Tue Oct 12 00:31:43 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 16:31:43 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06FA30D8-FA95-4DCE-836C-CE15093F1040@me.com> On Oct 11, 2021, at 9:40 AM, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > > ?Marc Wilson said, about the Harry Potter books: > >> My daughter has the first two in Latin. > > I'd like that! I do have the first one is Scots. Havers! I didna ken there was that buik in Scots! I maun find it the noo! A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 01:20:51 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 19:20:51 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages In-Reply-To: <06FA30D8-FA95-4DCE-836C-CE15093F1040@me.com> References: <06FA30D8-FA95-4DCE-836C-CE15093F1040@me.com> Message-ID: There's a place where you can find things like Winnie-the-Pooh in languages like Gothic or Old English. I've been longing for their Gothic Alice in Wonderland for some time. They also have books in quite a few dialects of English. On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 6:31 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Oct 11, 2021, at 9:40 AM, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > > > > ?Marc Wilson said, about the Harry Potter books: > > > >> My daughter has the first two in Latin. > > > > I'd like that! I do have the first one is Scots. > > Havers! I didna ken there was that buik in Scots! I maun find it the noo! > > A. Marina Fournier > saffronrose at me.com > Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e > Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA > Sent from iFionnghuala > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From saffronrose at me.com Tue Oct 12 01:26:32 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:26:32 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <115B9843-AE69-4B32-A479-41C5D495AD42@me.com> On Oct 11, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > ?There's a place where you can find things like Winnie-the-Pooh in languages > like Gothic or Old English. I've been longing for their Gothic Alice in > Wonderland for some time. They also have books in quite a few dialects of English. Said place? Harry Potter and the Philosopher?s Stane, but possibly no other others in Scots or Welsh, Irish has the first two that I?ve seen. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Tue Oct 12 01:35:26 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:35:26 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 11, 2021, at 1:28 PM, catherine muir wrote: > > ?On a more twisted note, for hallowe?en, I once again call out for But and Ben a Go Go, by Matthew Fitt. Dystopian SF in Scots, what?s not to like. And a pandemic (so nothing like RL then!) Matthew Fitt does the Scots Harry Potter translation. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Tue Oct 12 01:49:15 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:49:15 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87B663C5-D95F-406D-A8E1-0A653506A34F@me.com> On Oct 11, 2021, at 1:28 PM, catherine muir wrote: > > ?On a more twisted note, for hallowe?en, I once again call out for But and Ben a Go Go, by Matthew Fitt. Dystopian SF in Scots, what?s not to like. And a pandemic (so nothing like RL then!) Dystopia, Post-Apocalypse, and horror are genres I eschew, otherwise I might read it. He?s translated a few books, most I don?t recognize. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 02:01:14 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:01:14 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4.ref@aol.com> <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4@aol.com> <1E67CE9B-BBFD-4C14-A9CC-123FBC0560C1@brazee.net> <73696657-7861-40C6-B5BC-CB1F464154DD@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: I put a hold on a couple of her books. But I don't know the title of the book I thought was "Kingfisher". On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 9:43 AM Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 10:20 PM Raymond Collins > wrote: > > > "Kingfisher" sounds interesting. A lawyer priest of a Rat god? A magic > > sword with a bladder? I gotta check that out. > > > > Strongly second the recommendation. I have a bunch of her books (whether > writing as > T. Kingfisher or as Ursula Vernon) and they all have wicked senses of humor > and great > characters. > > > Tony Z > > -- > Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 02:14:47 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:14:47 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: <5bb71c97-d4c8-469e-d62e-432a128c5d29@matija.com> References: <3b8ee42d-5675-3333-6678-c216a922a758@matija.com> <5bb71c97-d4c8-469e-d62e-432a128c5d29@matija.com> Message-ID: Last Wednesday I was informed of a acquaintance I knew had died from Covid. She was a mother of five and was a believer that Covid19 was a conspiracy to plant a chip through a fake vaccine. Sadly for her kids she was wrong. I got into an argument with her last Thanksgiving over Covid. She rolled her eyes when I said I was going to vaccinated as soon as possible. Which why I knew her philosophy on Covid. It's a weird, I feel vindicated and guilty at the same time. On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 10:11 AM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On 11/10/2021 15:19, Marc Wilson wrote: > > You're not wrong, sadly. We have plenty of AntiVa CovIdiots in the UK. > Also in Switzerland. And don't even get me started on the ones in > Slovenia, where the story with their political positions is even more > complicated and contradictory (and stupid). > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 02:19:00 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:19:00 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Pastimes In-Reply-To: <33i8mg59k8hprgqcu4vjv5qg13kucneij2@4ax.com> References: <33i8mg59k8hprgqcu4vjv5qg13kucneij2@4ax.com> Message-ID: Jiffy lube should change their name because they surely can't change my oil in a jiffy. On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 12:33 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:05:18 +0000, WILLIAM A WENRICH > wrote: > > > > >Recently ,I looked at a video about how mathematics, computer science, > and quantum entanglement were related. The math was bey me but I checked on > something that I thought I knew. I thought that the least time in which > anything could happen was a fermi. I was wrong. A fermi is a unit of > distance 10 to the -15 meters, about the diameter of a nucleus. The unit of > time is a jiffy, the time it takes light to travel one fermi. > > The shortest meaningful length is the Planck length. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_length > > -- > Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. > And you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even > ask the question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many > blonde lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 02:24:45 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:24:45 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> Message-ID: These days anytime an event is happening somebody will be filming the event on their phone. I wonder how that will effect memory? On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 3:39 PM Matthew George wrote: > On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 2:47 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > > > There's a famous video where people are asked to study a basketball > > game, and only around 5% of test subjects recall that a man in a gorilla > > suit walks across the court. > > > > The details are everything: they're asked to view a video in which two > groups of people in differently-colored uniforms are superimposed on each > other, and asked to count the number of times one group bounced the > basketball. Partly through, a person dressed in a gorilla costume walks > by. > > When people are eliminating irrelevant stimuli in order to concentrate on > salient features, they'll ignore all sorts of things, even things that they > might consider noteworthy under other circumstances. > > Matt G. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 02:31:03 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:31:03 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Education, was Spirit Ring - Fathers & Daughters In-Reply-To: References: <38DB6010-D240-497A-AACB-379C228336F7@panix.com> Message-ID: Not quite argued, I just asked him why. And exclaimed having a good book handing broadens the mind and let's you explore other worlds imaginary or real. I didn't say it helps pass the time in durance vile. On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 3:46 PM Matthew George wrote: > On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 10:04 PM Raymond Collins > wrote: > > > We got to talking and I found out he was completely illiterate. What was > > worse was he didn't think > > it was necessary to learn how to read. I tried to convince him to learn > > but wasn't interested. > > > > Of the two of you, who knew more about the feasibility of reading in modern > American society? > > And *you* =argued= with him? > > Matt "relative expertise" G. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 02:39:15 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:39:15 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's been a long while since I read "Friday" but I believe the book was written in the point of view from a woman. I vaguely remember the plotline that she was some sort of super secret agent. On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 3:59 PM Matthew George wrote: > On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 7:52 AM Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > I reference him when the topic of second draft editing comes up. > > According to his letters, his normal practice at first was to write > > everything that came into his head and then throw out about half of it. > > But he only did this because the market demanded strict word counts in > > those days, and he hated it. Once he was a big enough name that editors > > couldn't dictate to him, he seems to have just published his first > drafts, > > with regretable results. > > > > I've mentioned before Spider Robinson's essay on editors, found in "User > Friendly", so I won't bring it up in any detail. I would note that Ayn > Rand actually had similar issues, as she absolutely hated the ways > producers and editors would insist on altering everything she submitted, so > when she went independent she refused to use the services of an editor. > Much to her works' detriment. > > Stephen King is another good example. The man is one of the best short > horror writers in American history, because short stories require immense > discipline and control of the author due to the restrictions imposed by the > limited length of the form. His novels wander, not least because he > "writes from the gut" and has no detailed plan or design. > > Matt G. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From douglasw at his.com Tue Oct 12 02:45:57 2021 From: douglasw at his.com (Douglas Weinfield) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 21:45:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 197, Issue 50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2054097545.21177742.1634003157476.JavaMail.zimbra@his.com> And they can't talk either! Oh, my goodness, she must rewrite the books immediately! And, snakes do not hear sounds like we do, but they are able to pick up and interpret vibrations in a similar way that we pick up and interpret sound waves. Snakes lack an outer ear but have all the workings of an inner ear, including a cochlea. Message: 4 Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 17:17:51 -0400 From: Matthew George To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Rowling Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" A pretty good trick, given that snakes are deaf. On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 11:47 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > Of course Harry had a bit of Voldemort in him which was why he could speak > to snakes. > Obvious foreshadowing. I actually knew someone who was gobsmacked when I told her the big reveal without having read the book. It was lampshaded a dozen times in the preceding volumes! Matt G. From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Tue Oct 12 02:46:28 2021 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 18:46:28 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4.ref@aol.com> <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4@aol.com> <1E67CE9B-BBFD-4C14-A9CC-123FBC0560C1@brazee.net> <73696657-7861-40C6-B5BC-CB1F464154DD@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 11, 2021, at 6:01 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > I put a hold on a couple of her books. But I don't know the title of the > book I thought was "Kingfisher?. _Swordheart_ (supposedly, it is the first book of a trilogy, but the other 2 haven?t shown up yet). "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com From howard at brazee.net Tue Oct 12 02:49:12 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 19:49:12 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 197, Issue 50 In-Reply-To: <2054097545.21177742.1634003157476.JavaMail.zimbra@his.com> References: <2054097545.21177742.1634003157476.JavaMail.zimbra@his.com> Message-ID: <17EE461D-00A8-4DB7-8AD2-CE8A24BEF225@brazee.net> > On Oct 11, 2021, at 7:45 PM, Douglas Weinfield wrote: > > Obvious foreshadowing. I actually knew someone who was gobsmacked when I > told her the big reveal without having read the book. It was lampshaded a > dozen times in the preceding volumes! I like foreshadowing, even if it is this obvious. I kept waiting for the wolves to be much more important in Game of Thrones. From jpolowin at hotmail.com Tue Oct 12 03:10:46 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 02:10:46 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 197, Issue 50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Matthew George wrote: > A pretty good trick, given that snakes are deaf. This is in fact not the case. Joel From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 03:53:38 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 21:53:38 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages In-Reply-To: <115B9843-AE69-4B32-A479-41C5D495AD42@me.com> References: <115B9843-AE69-4B32-A479-41C5D495AD42@me.com> Message-ID: Evertype.com is the place to go. They have Alice in quite a few languages and dialects. On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 7:26 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Oct 11, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > > > ?There's a place where you can find things like Winnie-the-Pooh in > languages > > like Gothic or Old English. I've been longing for their Gothic Alice in > > Wonderland for some time. They also have books in quite a few dialects > of English. > > Said place? > Harry Potter and the Philosopher?s Stane, but possibly no other others in > Scots or Welsh, Irish has the first two that I?ve seen. > > A. Marina Fournier > saffronrose at me.com > Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e > Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA > Sent from iFionnghuala > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From phoenix at mindstalk.net Tue Oct 12 04:12:11 2021 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 23:12:11 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin fraud In-Reply-To: References: <3b8ee42d-5675-3333-6678-c216a922a758@matija.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 05:52:29PM +0000, Bujold list wrote: > I got my vaccinations as soon as I could, but I'm keeping my "horse wormer" just in case, because 80% protection is not certainty. And for a great many people in Africa vaccination is still not an available option; so their doctors (being ignorant savages) use what they have empirically established works, without waiting for the blessing of the WHO. Doctors in France have done the same when desperate, and it worked there too. India has stopped using ivermectin for covid because it wasn't working. https://www.indiatoday.in/coronavirus-outbreak/story/why-hcq-ivermectin-dropped-india-covid-treatment-protocol-1857306-2021-09-26 Peru stopped months before https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/surgisphere-sows-confusion-about-another-unproven-covid19-drug-67635 A key pro-ivermective paper was fraudulent. https://codeblue.galencentre.org/2021/07/16/huge-study-claiming-ivermectin-effective-against-covid-19-retracted-amid-fraud-plagiarism-concerns/ https://www.sciencealert.com/ivermectin-study-controversy-is-a-huge-wake-up-call-for-fraud-in-covid-19-science And even more fraud https://gidmk.medium.com/is-ivermectin-for-covid-19-based-on-fraudulent-research-part-5-fe41044dab13 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58170809 "The BBC can reveal that more than a third of 26 major trials of the drug for use on Covid have serious errors or signs of potential fraud. None of the rest show convincing evidence of ivermectin's effectiveness." From phoenix at mindstalk.net Tue Oct 12 04:31:15 2021 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 23:31:15 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 09, 2021 at 10:26:30PM +0000, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Has there been any any cloning shown in the nexus except for the Jackson Whole body Leggers (a take on organleggers which is a take on bootleggers). Mark is a clone, I think done by House Bharaputra but not for the usual brain-transplant reasons. The Durona group was mentioned. Cordelia's talk to Mark states that cloning is a thing that could happen on Beta. "What am I, to you as a Betan?" he asked, nervously fascinated. "Either my son or my son once removed," she answered promptly. "Unlicensed, but claimed by me as an heir." "Those are actual legal categories, on your homeworld?" "You bet. Now, if I had ordered you cloned from Miles, after getting an approved child-license first of course, you would be my son pure and simple. If Miles as a legal adult had done the same, he would be your legal parent and I would be your mother-once-removed, and bear claims upon you and obligations to you approximately the equivalent of a grandparent. Miles was not, of course, a legal adult at the time you were cloned, nor was your birth licensed. If you were still a minor, he and I could go before an Adjudicator, and your guardianship would be assigned according to the Adjudicator's best judgment of your welfare. You are no longer, of course, a minor in either Betan or Barrayaran law." She sighed. "The time for legal guardianship is past. Lost. The inheritance of property will mostly be tangled in the Barrayaran legal confusions. Aral will discuss Barrayaran customary law, or the lack of it, with you when the time comes. That leaves our emotional relationship." Tangentially, touching line by Aral: The Count shrugged. "Whatever Miles is, we made him. You are perhaps wise to approach us with caution. We may not be good for you, either." > We have no way of adjusting length of the tolemers which would be Not an issue for the Nexus. -xx- Damien X-) From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 04:59:07 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 22:59:07 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Friday was an enhanced artificial human who worked as a courier for a secretive organization. On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 8:39 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > It's been a long while since I read "Friday" but I believe the book was > written in the point of view from a woman. I vaguely remember the plotline > that she was some sort of super secret agent. > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 3:59 PM Matthew George wrote: > > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 7:52 AM Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold < > > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > I reference him when the topic of second draft editing comes up. > > > According to his letters, his normal practice at first was to write > > > everything that came into his head and then throw out about half of it. > > > But he only did this because the market demanded strict word counts in > > > those days, and he hated it. Once he was a big enough name that > editors > > > couldn't dictate to him, he seems to have just published his first > > drafts, > > > with regretable results. > > > > > > > I've mentioned before Spider Robinson's essay on editors, found in "User > > Friendly", so I won't bring it up in any detail. I would note that Ayn > > Rand actually had similar issues, as she absolutely hated the ways > > producers and editors would insist on altering everything she submitted, > so > > when she went independent she refused to use the services of an editor. > > Much to her works' detriment. > > > > Stephen King is another good example. The man is one of the best short > > horror writers in American history, because short stories require immense > > discipline and control of the author due to the restrictions imposed by > the > > limited length of the form. His novels wander, not least because he > > "writes from the gut" and has no detailed plan or design. > > > > Matt G. > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alzurite at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 06:08:41 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 01:08:41 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages Message-ID: On Oct 11, 2021, at 9:40 AM, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > I said, about the Harry Potter books: > I'd like that! I do have the first one in Scots. A. Marina Fournier said > Havers! I didna ken there was that buik in Scots! I maun find it the noo! It's called "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stane" The first paragraph of Chaipter Ane: Mr and Mrs Durley, o nummer fower, Privet Loan, were prood tae say that they were gey normal, thank ye verra much. There were the lest fowk ye wid jalouse wid be tangled up onythin unco or weird, because they jist didnae haud wi havers like yon. I enjoyed it thoroughly. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 06:25:32 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 00:25:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Spirit Ring, Chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4.ref@aol.com> <0f97c488-d3e4-f4fb-59f6-8e74088a3bb4@aol.com> <1E67CE9B-BBFD-4C14-A9CC-123FBC0560C1@brazee.net> <73696657-7861-40C6-B5BC-CB1F464154DD@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: Thanks. On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 8:47 PM Robert Woodward wrote: > On Oct 11, 2021, at 6:01 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > > I put a hold on a couple of her books. But I don't know the title of the > > book I thought was "Kingfisher?. > > _Swordheart_ (supposedly, it is the first book of a trilogy, but the other > 2 haven?t shown up yet). > > > > "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." > Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. > ?----------------------------------------------------- > Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alzurite at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 06:40:20 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 01:40:20 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages Message-ID: Eric Oppen, after teasing us terribly, tells me about: > Evertype.com is the place to go. They have Alice in quite a few languages > and dialects. Oh my goodness. This is the kind of place that I could obsess over. They even have books in Esperanto, some of which I have read! I tried the game of looking up a familiar book - I picked The Hobbit first - to see if I could guess each of the languages it was translated into before looking at the description. I was about 50% right, but surprised they don't have it in Latin. On the other hand, it's clear Latin isn't their mandate. If it did exist in Latin I assume it would be called "Hobitus", and I would already own it. Just to make sure, I did a quick google search and discovered, I think, that this is the name of the book in Latvian. Maybe. Anyway, back to this wonderful website... The Mohenra Singh version of Alice in Wonderland with goatrs looks irresistible, and I don't even like Alice in Wonderland. Love all those books in constructed languages, some of which I never heard of. Surely Klingon should be there, if not Dothraki. I wouldn't expect Belter, but I live in hope. And it has Jane Eyre in Scots! A "weel-kent camin-o-age novel" indeed. What a fabulous place to browse. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From alzurite at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 06:52:52 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 01:52:52 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Post-script about The Hobbit Message-ID: I was wrong: "The Hobbit" does exist in Latin (of course it does!) and is called "Hobbitus Ille". It's even available on Amazon: https://tinyurl.com/48cc5crb namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 07:25:31 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 01:25:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Post-script about The Hobbit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "For how long, O Smaug, will you continue to abuse our patience? To what new madness will your unbridled greed drag you, O dragon of the desolation? How long must the Senate and People endure your arrogance?" On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 12:53 AM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > I was wrong: "The Hobbit" does exist in Latin (of course it does!) and is > called "Hobbitus Ille". > > It's even available on Amazon: https://tinyurl.com/48cc5crb > > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 07:26:46 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 01:26:46 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know what you mean. I've fantasized about watching J.R.R. Tolkien go nuts if I visited him and brought along the Anglo-Saxon and Gothic versions of *Alice in Wonderland.* On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 12:40 AM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Eric Oppen, after teasing us terribly, tells me about: > > > Evertype.com is the place to go. They have Alice in quite a few > languages > > and dialects. > > Oh my goodness. This is the kind of place that I could obsess over. They > even have books in Esperanto, some of which I have read! > > I tried the game of looking up a familiar book - I picked The Hobbit first > - to see if I could guess each of the languages it was translated into > before looking at the description. I was about 50% right, but surprised > they don't have it in Latin. On the other hand, it's clear Latin isn't > their mandate. If it did exist in Latin I assume it would be called > "Hobitus", and I would already own it. Just to make sure, I did a quick > google search and discovered, I think, that this is the name of the book in > Latvian. Maybe. Anyway, back to this wonderful website... > > The Mohenra Singh version of Alice in Wonderland with goatrs looks > irresistible, and I don't even like Alice in Wonderland. > > Love all those books in constructed languages, some of which I never heard > of. Surely Klingon should be there, if not Dothraki. I wouldn't expect > Belter, but I live in hope. And it has Jane Eyre in Scots! A "weel-kent > camin-o-age novel" indeed. > > What a fabulous place to browse. > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From saffronrose at me.com Tue Oct 12 08:14:00 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 00:14:00 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Post-script about The Hobbit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 11, 2021, at 11:25 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > ?"For how long, O Smaug, will you continue to abuse our patience? To what > new madness will your unbridled greed drag you, O dragon of the > desolation? How long must the Senate and People endure your arrogance?" Non amo te, Smaug-dracon, nec possum dicere quare. Hoc tantum possum dicere: non amo te. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Tue Oct 12 08:29:56 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 00:29:56 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28BFC676-EF11-43E5-B0E1-5A3497B17D92@me.com> On Oct 11, 2021, at 11:27 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > ?I know what you mean. I've fantasized about watching J.R.R. Tolkien go > nuts if I visited him and brought along the Anglo-Saxon and Gothic versions > of *Alice in Wonderland.* Why Prof. Tolkien? Charles Dodgson might give you a better reaction, I should think. As to Tolkien, anyone know if the Middle-Earth books are available in Icelandic? Old Icelandic underlays much of the Elven language. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From cbatjesmond at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 11:44:12 2021 From: cbatjesmond at gmail.com (Chris Benson) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 11:44:12 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages Message-ID: At Tue Oct 12 08:29:56 BST 2021 A. Marina Fournier wrote: > As to Tolkien, anyone know if the Middle-Earth books are available in Icelandic? Old Icelandic underlays much of the Elven language. There's _Hobbit_ trans. ?lfur Ragnarsson, Karl ?g?st ?lfsson ? holu ? j?r?inni bj? hobbi. Ekki ?ge?slegri, rakri or skitugri holu, fullri af ormum og f?kkulykt, og ekki heldur ?urri, sendinni og ey?ilegri holu ?ar sem er ekkert til a? sitja ? og ekkert til a? bor?a. Nei, ?etta var nefnilega hobba-hola, og ?a? ??rir a? h?n var notaleg. https://www.librarything.com/work/3206242/summary/66776252 -- Chris Benson From john.c.lennard at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 12:34:32 2021 From: john.c.lennard at gmail.com (John Lennard) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:34:32 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages Message-ID: Marina: Old Icelandic underlays much of the Elven language. John: Um, not so. Old English and Old Norse (= Old Icelandic) underlie Rohirric strongly, and various other details, like 'wargs' and lots of names (Frodo, Samwise, Deagol and Smeagol) ; but Quenya was based on Finnish and Sindarin on Welsh (both for largely aesthetic reasons and after a grammatical as much as morphological and rather than lexical fashion), and when JRRT says (in the foreword to the 2/e of LR) that the story was needed to explain the language history he wasn't kidding because he had a Celtic language evolving from a Finno-Ugric language, which is like having an aardvark evolve into a flying hexapuma. Only massive disruption -- displacement, migration, splintering, isolation, radically new terrain and lifestyles -- can hope to explain it plausibly to a philologist : hence the Madness at Alqualonde, the Revolt and Exile of the Noldor, the humongous timescale, and then the destruction of Beleriand with all that follows. And why would any Noldorin Elf do such a thing? Well, there were these Silmarils, you see ... all so that Sindarin might half-plausibly arise from Quenya, however it kinda acquired its own life and momentum along the way. Seriously. This is the man who came across a single poetic reference in Old Norse to tribes of thyrses (whatever they may have been) living in rainwashed mountains, remembered that there was a single occurrence in an obscure OE poem of the untranslatable compound noun "orc-thyrs", and voila, the Misty Mountains full or orcs ; just as he came across the phrase "orthanc enta geweork" in OE, 'the cunning work of giants', probably meaning old Roman architecture which wowed folks who'd temporarily lost the arch, and from it took both Orthanc and its silvian nemesis.* Words were his life, professional and as a hobby. See also his notes to translators of LR, now most readily available in the Hammond & Scull *Reader's Companion to LR*. * Plus, he was slapping at Shakespeare, having found the pseudo-movement of Birnam Wood to Dunsinane a rotten swiz. If you're gonna have moving woods, do it properly! -- John Lennard, MA DPhil. (Oxon.), MA (WU) Associate Member, Hughes Hall, Cambridge Independent Scholar www.humanities-ebooks.co.uk *Mock-Death in Shakespeare's Plays* The first full study of Shakespeare's favourite dramatic device *The Exasperating Case of David Weber, or The Slow Death of The Honorverse* 22 years ago Weber created it and in the last ten he has broken it ... *Tolkien's Triumph: The Strange History of *The Lord of the Rings Just how did a 1000-page book with 6 appendices come to sell 8,500 copies per day? *Talking Sense About *Fifty Shades of Grey*, or Fanfiction, Feminism, and BDSM* The story the media *isn't* telling ... Available from Kindle Stores, and in PDF from the author. From wawenri at msn.com Tue Oct 12 12:53:33 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 11:53:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: AIHABF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree that the landing is a controlled (hopefully) crash. I had the roughest landing of the week and dragged about 40 yards. (I get a lot of kidding from my crew as My flight usually lands the hardest. About ten years ago, on a Tuesday, we landed at 35 mph into an upslope. There were a lot of hard landings that day. The wind picked up after liftoff.) Piloting a hot air balloon is truly an art. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Marc Wilson Sent: Monday, October 11, 2021 8:08:27 AM To: LMB Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: AIHABF On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 16:40:57 -0500, Eric Oppen wrote: >You luck! I've always wanted to fly in a balloon! It's ... odd. When the burner isn't running, there's very little noise, as you're floating with the wind. You can float over someone's garden, several hundred feet up, and chat to them. The landing (which is more of a controlled crash, IME) is probably the most exciting part. -- To govern is always to choose among disadvantages. - Charles de Gaulle -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cc9ab92c46cb347fb63e308d98cc09f77%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637695581205289528%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=yrRj9KxZ%2BISgEwWMjWa9vPrX3Vq1tj6NMdvuyV5E00E%3D&reserved=0 From wawenri at msn.com Tue Oct 12 13:00:33 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:00:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have never advocated taking a medication compounded for use with animals. Ivermectin has been use by humans and compounded for human for many years. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Joel Polowin Sent: Monday, October 11, 2021 9:39:19 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials Matija Grabnar wrote: > (and quibble: it's horse de-wormer, not wormer) Actually, both terms are used for the same thing, somewhat like "flammable" and "inflammable". But for those objecting to the term "horse medicine" (et al.) as being political... while there is some loading to the term, many of the idiots who are taking it on the basis of -- let's call it "poor advice" -- are taking literal horse medicine, versions that are distributed for veterinary purposes, because it's relatively available without having to deal with a doctor as gatekeeper. Some aren't even adjusting the dosages properly, based on the differences between the larger animals and humans, and are getting quite ill as a result. Joel -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C61d8c1e97eeb4d4beab808d98ccd5092%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637695635716122254%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=lAtpbPZNfsxkpJgJQCgaOgBItLNQb6%2FnqxEpEMrgBfc%3D&reserved=0 From wetair at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 13:16:43 2021 From: wetair at gmail.com (Ruchira Mathur) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 08:16:43 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: But the human version needs a prescription and only for parasites and some other things. Not for covid and if you want to use it for covid, I think you have to get the horse version or possibly a human version from some website. On Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 8:00 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > I have never advocated taking a medication compounded for use with > animals. Ivermectin has been use by humans and compounded for human for > many years. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Joel Polowin > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2021 9:39:19 AM > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials > > Matija Grabnar wrote: > > (and quibble: it's horse de-wormer, not wormer) > > Actually, both terms are used for the same thing, somewhat like > "flammable" and "inflammable". > > But for those objecting to the term "horse medicine" (et al.) as being > political... while there is some loading to the term, many of the idiots > who are taking it on the basis of -- let's call it "poor advice" -- > are taking literal horse medicine, versions that are distributed for > veterinary purposes, because it's relatively available without having > to deal with a doctor as gatekeeper. Some aren't even adjusting the > dosages properly, based on the differences between the larger animals > and humans, and are getting quite ill as a result. > > Joel > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C61d8c1e97eeb4d4beab808d98ccd5092%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637695635716122254%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=lAtpbPZNfsxkpJgJQCgaOgBItLNQb6%2FnqxEpEMrgBfc%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wetair at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From mathews55 at msn.com Tue Oct 12 16:18:04 2021 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:18:04 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To quote everybody who looked at Miles' service record, "She never was just a bloody courier, was she?" ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Eric Oppen Sent: Monday, October 11, 2021 9:59 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Heinlein Friday was an enhanced artificial human who worked as a courier for a secretive organization. On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 8:39 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > It's been a long while since I read "Friday" but I believe the book was > written in the point of view from a woman. I vaguely remember the plotline > that she was some sort of super secret agent. > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 3:59 PM Matthew George wrote: > > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 7:52 AM Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold < > > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > I reference him when the topic of second draft editing comes up. > > > According to his letters, his normal practice at first was to write > > > everything that came into his head and then throw out about half of it. > > > But he only did this because the market demanded strict word counts in > > > those days, and he hated it. Once he was a big enough name that > editors > > > couldn't dictate to him, he seems to have just published his first > > drafts, > > > with regretable results. > > > > > > > I've mentioned before Spider Robinson's essay on editors, found in "User > > Friendly", so I won't bring it up in any detail. I would note that Ayn > > Rand actually had similar issues, as she absolutely hated the ways > > producers and editors would insist on altering everything she submitted, > so > > when she went independent she refused to use the services of an editor. > > Much to her works' detriment. > > > > Stephen King is another good example. The man is one of the best short > > horror writers in American history, because short stories require immense > > discipline and control of the author due to the restrictions imposed by > the > > limited length of the form. His novels wander, not least because he > > "writes from the gut" and has no detailed plan or design. > > > > Matt G. > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From wawenri at msn.com Tue Oct 12 17:55:25 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 16:55:25 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Pastimes In-Reply-To: References: <33i8mg59k8hprgqcu4vjv5qg13kucneij2@4ax.com> Message-ID: I don?t go to Jiffy Lube since a friend lost an engine due to no oil. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Raymond Collins Sent: Monday, October 11, 2021 7:19:00 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Pastimes Jiffy lube should change their name because they surely can't change my oil in a jiffy. On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 12:33 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:05:18 +0000, WILLIAM A WENRICH > wrote: > > > > >Recently ,I looked at a video about how mathematics, computer science, > and quantum entanglement were related. The math was bey me but I checked on > something that I thought I knew. I thought that the least time in which > anything could happen was a fermi. I was wrong. A fermi is a unit of > distance 10 to the -15 meters, about the diameter of a nucleus. The unit of > time is a jiffy, the time it takes light to travel one fermi. > > The shortest meaningful length is the Planck length. > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPlanck_length&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce863716ba94640cf510f08d98d1e5290%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637695983644354057%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=xfnO7kd6nhK3YTfuch1JgqzGQFODtMOIq5Qj0RicGwE%3D&reserved=0 > > -- > Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. > And you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even > ask the question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many > blonde lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce863716ba94640cf510f08d98d1e5290%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637695983644354057%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=9ceksqgp6F4nYbJ%2BeuPRcqrf9dbkt9Bj%2F2zvF1dxN9M%3D&reserved=0 > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce863716ba94640cf510f08d98d1e5290%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637695983644354057%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=9ceksqgp6F4nYbJ%2BeuPRcqrf9dbkt9Bj%2F2zvF1dxN9M%3D&reserved=0 From margdean56 at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 17:58:33 2021 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 10:58:33 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages In-Reply-To: <28BFC676-EF11-43E5-B0E1-5A3497B17D92@me.com> References: <28BFC676-EF11-43E5-B0E1-5A3497B17D92@me.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 1:30 AM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Oct 11, 2021, at 11:27 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > > > ?I know what you mean. I've fantasized about watching J.R.R. Tolkien go > > nuts if I visited him and brought along the Anglo-Saxon and Gothic > versions > > of *Alice in Wonderland.* > > Why Prof. Tolkien? Charles Dodgson might give you a better reaction, I > should think. > Because Tolkien was a philologist, and Anglo-Saxon and Gothic were two of the languages he was particularly interested in. Dodgson, on the other hand, was a mathematician, not a language wonk. > > As to Tolkien, anyone know if the Middle-Earth books are available in > Icelandic? Old Icelandic underlays much of the Elven language. > Um, no. Tolkien was interested in the Scandinavian languages and Norse sagas, but his primary models for the Elvish languages were Finnish, for Quenya (NOT a Scandinavian or even an Indo-European language) and Welsh for Sindarin. --Margaret Dean From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 19:28:47 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:28:47 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Ent" was the AS word for "giant," and the Ents in the books and movies qualify easily. Watching the scene in The Two Towers when the Ents are wrecking Saruman's workshops, I thought that the Kindly Old Professor would have been loving every moment of it. He loved trees and green things in general, and disliked industrialization pretty strongly. I've also thought that if I could have shown him the Warhammer Fantasy universe, he might have thought that the Chaos Beastmen were an idea he could have used himself. He was never too comfortable with orcs and such being "always evil," and changed his mind several times about where they'd come from. Having Sauron or Morgoth corrupt innocent animals into murderous mutants for their armies might have been more up his alley. On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 6:34 AM John Lennard wrote: > Marina: Old Icelandic underlays much of the Elven language. > > John: Um, not so. Old English and Old Norse (= Old Icelandic) underlie > Rohirric strongly, and various other details, like 'wargs' and lots of > names (Frodo, Samwise, Deagol and Smeagol) ; but Quenya was based on > Finnish and Sindarin on Welsh (both for largely aesthetic reasons and after > a grammatical as much as morphological and rather than lexical fashion), > and when JRRT says (in the foreword to the 2/e of LR) that the story was > needed to explain the language history he wasn't kidding because he had a > Celtic language evolving from a Finno-Ugric language, which is like having > an aardvark evolve into a flying hexapuma. Only massive disruption -- > displacement, migration, splintering, isolation, radically new terrain and > lifestyles -- can hope to explain it plausibly to a philologist : hence the > Madness at Alqualonde, the Revolt and Exile of the Noldor, the > humongous timescale, and then the destruction of Beleriand with all that > follows. And why would any Noldorin Elf do such a thing? Well, there were > these Silmarils, you see ... all so that Sindarin might half-plausibly > arise from Quenya, however it kinda acquired its own life and > momentum along the way. > > Seriously. This is the man who came across a single poetic reference in Old > Norse to tribes of thyrses (whatever they may have been) living in > rainwashed mountains, remembered that there was a single occurrence in an > obscure OE poem of the untranslatable compound noun "orc-thyrs", and voila, > the Misty Mountains full or orcs ; just as he came across the phrase > "orthanc enta geweork" in OE, 'the cunning work of giants', probably > meaning old Roman architecture which wowed folks who'd temporarily lost the > arch, and from it took both Orthanc and its silvian nemesis.* Words were > his life, professional and as a hobby. > > See also his notes to translators of LR, now most readily available in the > Hammond & Scull *Reader's Companion to LR*. > > * Plus, he was slapping at Shakespeare, having found the pseudo-movement of > Birnam Wood to Dunsinane a rotten swiz. If you're gonna have moving woods, > do it properly! > -- > John Lennard, MA DPhil. (Oxon.), MA (WU) > > Associate Member, Hughes Hall, Cambridge > Independent Scholar > www.humanities-ebooks.co.uk > > *Mock-Death in Shakespeare's Plays* > The first full study of Shakespeare's favourite dramatic device > > *The Exasperating Case of David Weber, or The Slow Death of The Honorverse* > 22 years ago Weber created it and in the last ten he has broken it ... > > *Tolkien's Triumph: The Strange History of *The Lord of the Rings > Just how did a 1000-page book with 6 appendices come to sell 8,500 copies > per day? > > *Talking Sense About *Fifty Shades of Grey*, or Fanfiction, Feminism, and > BDSM* > The story the media *isn't* telling ... > > Available from Kindle Stores, and in PDF from the author. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alzurite at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 19:34:09 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:34:09 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Post-script about The Hobbit Message-ID: On Oct 11, 2021, at 11:25 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > ?"For how long, O Smaug, will you continue to abuse our patience? To what > new madness will your unbridled greed drag you, O dragon of the > desolation? How long must the Senate and People endure your arrogance?" A. Marina Fournier countered: > Non amo te, Smaug-dracon, nec possum dicere quare. > Hoc tantum possum dicere: non amo te. Brilliant! ROFL! namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 19:43:44 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:43:44 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Post-script about The Hobbit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *taking a bow* On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 1:34 PM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > On Oct 11, 2021, at 11:25 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > > > ?"For how long, O Smaug, will you continue to abuse our patience? To > what > > new madness will your unbridled greed drag you, O dragon of the > > desolation? How long must the Senate and People endure your arrogance?" > > A. Marina Fournier countered: > > > Non amo te, Smaug-dracon, nec possum dicere quare. > > Hoc tantum possum dicere: non amo te. > > Brilliant! ROFL! > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Wed Oct 13 00:40:51 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 00:40:51 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:24:45 -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: > >These days anytime an event is happening somebody will be filming the event >on their phone. I wonder how that will effect memory? If the Titanic sank today, drowning people would be taking selfies. -- Absence is to love what wind is to fire; it extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great. -- Comte DeBussy-Rabutin From mark at allums.email Wed Oct 13 01:12:30 2021 From: mark at allums.email (Mark Allums) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 19:12:30 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: IIRC, orcs were goblins bred/engineered into a semblance/mockery of elves. So, yeah. Mark A. On 10/12/2021 1:28 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > "Ent" was the AS word for "giant," and the Ents in the books and movies > qualify easily. > > Watching the scene in The Two Towers when the Ents are wrecking Saruman's > workshops, I thought that the Kindly Old Professor would have been loving > every moment of it. He loved trees and green things in general, and > disliked industrialization pretty strongly. > > I've also thought that if I could have shown him the Warhammer Fantasy > universe, he might have thought that the Chaos Beastmen were an idea he > could have used himself. He was never too comfortable with orcs and such > being "always evil," and changed his mind several times about where they'd > come from. Having Sauron or Morgoth corrupt innocent animals into > murderous mutants for their armies might have been more up his alley. > > > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 6:34 AM John Lennard > wrote: > >> Marina: Old Icelandic underlays much of the Elven language. >> >> John: Um, not so. Old English and Old Norse (= Old Icelandic) underlie >> Rohirric strongly, and various other details, like 'wargs' and lots of >> names (Frodo, Samwise, Deagol and Smeagol) ; but Quenya was based on >> Finnish and Sindarin on Welsh (both for largely aesthetic reasons and after >> a grammatical as much as morphological and rather than lexical fashion), >> and when JRRT says (in the foreword to the 2/e of LR) that the story was >> needed to explain the language history he wasn't kidding because he had a >> Celtic language evolving from a Finno-Ugric language, which is like having >> an aardvark evolve into a flying hexapuma. Only massive disruption -- >> displacement, migration, splintering, isolation, radically new terrain and >> lifestyles -- can hope to explain it plausibly to a philologist : hence the >> Madness at Alqualonde, the Revolt and Exile of the Noldor, the >> humongous timescale, and then the destruction of Beleriand with all that >> follows. And why would any Noldorin Elf do such a thing? Well, there were >> these Silmarils, you see ... all so that Sindarin might half-plausibly >> arise from Quenya, however it kinda acquired its own life and >> momentum along the way. >> >> Seriously. This is the man who came across a single poetic reference in Old >> Norse to tribes of thyrses (whatever they may have been) living in >> rainwashed mountains, remembered that there was a single occurrence in an >> obscure OE poem of the untranslatable compound noun "orc-thyrs", and voila, >> the Misty Mountains full or orcs ; just as he came across the phrase >> "orthanc enta geweork" in OE, 'the cunning work of giants', probably >> meaning old Roman architecture which wowed folks who'd temporarily lost the >> arch, and from it took both Orthanc and its silvian nemesis.* Words were >> his life, professional and as a hobby. >> >> See also his notes to translators of LR, now most readily available in the >> Hammond & Scull *Reader's Companion to LR*. >> >> * Plus, he was slapping at Shakespeare, having found the pseudo-movement of >> Birnam Wood to Dunsinane a rotten swiz. If you're gonna have moving woods, >> do it properly! >> -- >> John Lennard, MA DPhil. (Oxon.), MA (WU) >> >> Associate Member, Hughes Hall, Cambridge >> Independent Scholar >> www.humanities-ebooks.co.uk >> >> *Mock-Death in Shakespeare's Plays* >> The first full study of Shakespeare's favourite dramatic device >> >> *The Exasperating Case of David Weber, or The Slow Death of The Honorverse* >> 22 years ago Weber created it and in the last ten he has broken it ... >> >> *Tolkien's Triumph: The Strange History of *The Lord of the Rings >> Just how did a 1000-page book with 6 appendices come to sell 8,500 copies >> per day? >> >> *Talking Sense About *Fifty Shades of Grey*, or Fanfiction, Feminism, and >> BDSM* >> The story the media *isn't* telling ... >> >> Available from Kindle Stores, and in PDF from the author. >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 02:55:29 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:55:29 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Pastimes In-Reply-To: References: <33i8mg59k8hprgqcu4vjv5qg13kucneij2@4ax.com> Message-ID: It's too expensive also. On Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 11:55 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > I don?t go to Jiffy Lube since a friend lost an engine due to no oil. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Raymond Collins > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2021 7:19:00 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Pastimes > > Jiffy lube should change their name because they surely can't change my oil > in a jiffy. > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 12:33 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > > > On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:05:18 +0000, WILLIAM A WENRICH > > wrote: > > > > > > > >Recently ,I looked at a video about how mathematics, computer science, > > and quantum entanglement were related. The math was bey me but I checked > on > > something that I thought I knew. I thought that the least time in which > > anything could happen was a fermi. I was wrong. A fermi is a unit of > > distance 10 to the -15 meters, about the diameter of a nucleus. The unit > of > > time is a jiffy, the time it takes light to travel one fermi. > > > > The shortest meaningful length is the Planck length. > > > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPlanck_length&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce863716ba94640cf510f08d98d1e5290%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637695983644354057%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=xfnO7kd6nhK3YTfuch1JgqzGQFODtMOIq5Qj0RicGwE%3D&reserved=0 > > > > -- > > Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. > > And you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even > > ask the question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many > > blonde lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb. > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce863716ba94640cf510f08d98d1e5290%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637695983644354057%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=9ceksqgp6F4nYbJ%2BeuPRcqrf9dbkt9Bj%2F2zvF1dxN9M%3D&reserved=0 > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ce863716ba94640cf510f08d98d1e5290%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637695983644354057%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=9ceksqgp6F4nYbJ%2BeuPRcqrf9dbkt9Bj%2F2zvF1dxN9M%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 03:06:37 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 21:06:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> Message-ID: There was a rumor that some passengers of the Germanwings flight that crashed in the French Alps was recording the last moments of flight on their phones. On Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:41 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > On Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:24:45 -0500, Raymond Collins > wrote: > > > > >These days anytime an event is happening somebody will be filming the > event > >on their phone. I wonder how that will effect memory? > > If the Titanic sank today, drowning people would be taking selfies. > -- > Absence is to love what wind is to fire; it extinguishes the small, > it enkindles the great. -- Comte DeBussy-Rabutin > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Wed Oct 13 03:34:52 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 20:34:52 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 12, 2021, at 8:06 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > There was a rumor that some passengers of the Germanwings flight that > crashed in the French Alps was recording the last moments of flight on > their phones. Well, in that case, there wasn?t much they could do. From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Wed Oct 13 04:16:30 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 23:16:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] =?iso-8859-15?q?OT=3A_99p_sake_on_first_two_books_in_Quant?= =?iso-8859-15?q?um_Magician_series_by_Derek_K=FCnsken?= Message-ID: https://rebellionpublishing.com/product/the_quantum_magician/ >From the publisher. -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 04:47:02 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 22:47:02 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> Message-ID: That might help investigators figure out what happened. On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 9:35 PM brazee wrote: > > > > On Oct 12, 2021, at 8:06 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > > There was a rumor that some passengers of the Germanwings flight that > > crashed in the French Alps was recording the last moments of flight on > > their phones. > > Well, in that case, there wasn?t much they could do. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 04:57:21 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 22:57:21 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> Message-ID: Indeed, although I think it was the sound of the pilot banging on the cockpit door and shouting for the co-pilot to, open up, on the voice recorder that informed the investigators that the suicidal co-pilot was responsible. On Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 10:47 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > That might help investigators figure out what happened. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 9:35 PM brazee wrote: > > > > > > > > On Oct 12, 2021, at 8:06 PM, Raymond Collins > wrote: > > > > > > There was a rumor that some passengers of the Germanwings flight that > > > crashed in the French Alps was recording the last moments of flight on > > > their phones. > > > > Well, in that case, there wasn?t much they could do. > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From baur at chello.at Wed Oct 13 05:46:57 2021 From: baur at chello.at (baur baur) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 06:46:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> Message-ID: <184320586.697943.1634100417246@webmail.mymagenta.at> > Marc Wilson hat am 13.10.2021 01:40 geschrieben: > > On Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:24:45 -0500, Raymond Collins > wrote: > > >These days anytime an event is happening somebody will be filming the event > >on their phone. I wonder how that will effect memory? > > If the Titanic sank today, drowning people would be taking selfies. and while drowning they would loudly complain about not getting any net connection in the middle of the atlantic servus markus > -- > Absence is to love what wind is to fire; it extinguishes the small, > it enkindles the great. -- Comte DeBussy-Rabutin > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From baur at chello.at Wed Oct 13 06:32:55 2021 From: baur at chello.at (baur baur) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 07:32:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> Message-ID: <1093784367.698099.1634103175322@webmail.mymagenta.at> plus the repeated "lock cockpit door" command logged in the FDR (you have to repeatedly push the that switch, as the cockpit door would unlock the keypad lock after some time) https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-32070528 servus markus > Raymond Collins hat am 13.10.2021 05:57 geschrieben: > > > Indeed, although I think it was the sound of the pilot banging on the > cockpit door and shouting for the co-pilot to, open up, on the voice > recorder that informed the investigators that the suicidal co-pilot was > responsible. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 10:47 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > > > That might help investigators figure out what happened. > > > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 9:35 PM brazee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 12, 2021, at 8:06 PM, Raymond Collins > > wrote: > > > > > > > > There was a rumor that some passengers of the Germanwings flight that > > > > crashed in the French Alps was recording the last moments of flight on > > > > their phones. > > > > > > Well, in that case, there wasn?t much they could do. > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From saffronrose at me.com Wed Oct 13 06:51:11 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 22:51:11 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39C78AFF-B5E3-47EF-B3D7-4B15CBA2CD57@me.com> On Oct 12, 2021, at 9:58 AM, Margaret Dean wrote: > > ?On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 1:30 AM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > >>> On Oct 11, 2021, at 11:27 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: >>> >>> ?I know what you mean. I've fantasized about watching J.R.R. Tolkien go >>> nuts if I visited him and brought along the Anglo-Saxon and Gothic >> versions >>> of *Alice in Wonderland.* >> >> Why Prof. Tolkien? Charles Dodgson might give you a better reaction, I >> should think. > > Because Tolkien was a philologist, and Anglo-Saxon and Gothic were two of > the languages he was particularly interested in. Dodgson, on the other > hand, was a mathematician, not a language wonk. > >> As to Tolkien, anyone know if the Middle-Earth books are available in >> Icelandic? Old Icelandic underlays much of the Elven language. > > Um, no. Tolkien was interested in the Scandinavian languages and Norse > sagas, but his primary models for the Elvish languages were Finnish, for > Quenya (NOT a Scandinavian or even an Indo-European language) and Welsh for > Sindarin. Ok, so wonder where did I get the idea it was Old Icelandic? Yea, Finnish falls into the Finno-Ugric? Hungarian family. For me the odd thing is that *Mongolian* is a Turkic language?blame Hu for learning that. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Wed Oct 13 06:58:52 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 22:58:52 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02CC67CA-7C98-448C-B2C0-9F360C69BA1D@me.com> Thanks for a more complete answer, and a new bit (swiz) of UK slang! A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala > On Oct 12, 2021, at 4:34 AM, John Lennard wrote: > > ?Marina: Old Icelandic underlays much of the Elven language. > > John: Um, not so. Old English and Old Norse (= Old Icelandic) underlie > Rohirric strongly, and various other details, like 'wargs' and lots of > names (Frodo, Samwise, Deagol and Smeagol) ; but Quenya was based on > Finnish and Sindarin on Welsh (both for largely aesthetic reasons and after > a grammatical as much as morphological and rather than lexical fashion), > and when JRRT says (in the foreword to the 2/e of LR) that the story was > needed to explain the language history he wasn't kidding because he had a > Celtic language evolving from a Finno-Ugric language, which is like having > an aardvark evolve into a flying hexapuma. Only massive disruption -- > displacement, migration, splintering, isolation, radically new terrain and > lifestyles -- can hope to explain it plausibly to a philologist : hence the > Madness at Alqualonde, the Revolt and Exile of the Noldor, the > humongous timescale, and then the destruction of Beleriand with all that > follows. And why would any Noldorin Elf do such a thing? Well, there were > these Silmarils, you see ... all so that Sindarin might half-plausibly > arise from Quenya, however it kinda acquired its own life and > momentum along the way. Snippage > * Plus, he was slapping at Shakespeare, having found the pseudo-movement of > Birnam Wood to Dunsinane a rotten swiz. If you're gonna have moving woods, > do it properly! From saffronrose at me.com Wed Oct 13 07:04:07 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 23:04:07 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 12, 2021, at 4:41 PM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > ?On Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:24:45 -0500, Raymond Collins > wrote: > >> These days anytime an event is happening somebody will be filming the event >> on their phone. I wonder how that will effect memory? ISTR that the same was said as epic poems were starting to be written instead of memorizing, in several cultures. > If the Titanic sank today, drowning people would be taking selfies. ?Ave you heard anything of the iceberg? My family were on it, you see . . . It?s Les Barker?s fault that any mention of that event triggers these lines in my brain! A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Oct 13 08:36:57 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 07:36:57 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: AIHABF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Marc Wilson On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 16:40:57 -0500, Eric Oppen wrote: >You luck! I've always wanted to fly in a balloon! It's ... odd. When the burner isn't running, there's very little noise, as you're floating with the wind. You can float over someone's garden, several hundred feet up, and chat to them. The landing (which is more of a controlled crash, IME) is probably the most exciting part. Gwynne: I'm terrified of heights, I can't even climb a ladder. When my father turned 80 we gave him a hot-air-balloon ride and somehow the family elected me to go with him. I decided to spend the whole time with my eyes closed. So off we went. And it was amazing. I could look out, and straight down, without feeling that sick panic and paralysis. We just floated, silently, and I loved every minute, leaning out and looking at everything. Yes, the landing was interesting. But the trip was well worth it. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Oct 13 08:51:34 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 07:51:34 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Tony Zbaraschuk On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 5:26 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Has there been any any cloning shown in the nexus except for the Jackson > Whole body Leggers (a take on organleggers which is a take on bootleggers). > Does anyone think that human cloning is a good idea? I think it?s sickening. > I think it boils down to "why are you doing it?" and "how are you doing it?" There's nothing wrong with cloning _per se_, but it can be done for the wrong reasons. Gwynne: If and when it starts, apart from the clone-a-master-soldier plot, I can see two main reasons: cloning someone incredibly talented, and cloning a lost loved one - most likely a child. And both of those would be extremely nasty and unhealthy, for that child. Imagine if you were the clone of Einstein, or Beethoven (insert any other famous talented person there, it's a huge list.) Your childhood would be spent in training for only one career path, no matter what you wished to do. You'd be subtly or openly pushed towards the 'right' choices. And then everyone is watching you for signs of that genius. Everything you do is analysed, and judged. There's no easy learning curve, no privacy to make your mistakes, it's always centre stage for you. If you DO produce something it'll be compared, and any credit will be given to your (progenitor? not sure of the right term.) If it falls short, you'll get the blame. I can't see any positives in that life. If the cloning is done to replace a lost child, imagine the massive emotional pressure to display all the same mannerisms, have the same interests, as the child you've replaced. You're always acting a part, being watched, being pushed into a particular shape that you didn't choose. And imagine if you fall short. It's not going to be unconditional love, not for little Bobbie Mark II. Apart from all the scientific drawbacks and problems, I just can't see that it's a kind or positive thing to do to a child. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Oct 13 09:35:16 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 08:35:16 +0000 Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't know if this has already been posted. I stumbled across this yesterday. Scrolling down the list there's a lot I agree with, a lot I haven't heard of, and quite a few that I don't think are the book I'd choose as the best example from that author. Yes, Lois is there, of course. They chose A Civil Campaign. I don't think that's the book I'd call the most influential of her books. https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/?fbclid=IwAR2lLmus6EJqlHRp-n-G5wh33IGXdHZa5Bv_Qii55jc796MML4gq1Y92cos [https://s2982.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/space-suit-field-of-flowers.jpg.optimal.jpg] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time The most influential sci-fi books of all time examine humanity's longest-held hopes and deepest, most visceral fears. bookriot.com From proto at panix.com Wed Oct 13 10:28:10 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 05:28:10 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> Message-ID: <282B2E42-1267-415D-9078-D87B7DD58A64@panix.com> > On Oct 12, 2021, at 11:47 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 9:35 PM brazee wrote: > >> >> >>> On Oct 12, 2021, at 8:06 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: >>> >>> There was a rumor that some passengers of the Germanwings flight that >>> crashed in the French Alps was recording the last moments of flight on >>> their phones. >> >> Well, in that case, there wasn?t much they could do. >> ? Moved to bottom for clarity > That might help investigators figure out what happened. And thus was the most they could do. Unless you believe some god or goddess was going to suspend the laws of physics in response to petitionary prayer. Has anyone considered the possibility of God[1 being transgendered? Someone has to have written fiction in that (jugular) vein. [1] ?God? is a title, not a name. Many people use it to refer to YaHuWaHu. ? Of course our planet has its mood swings ? it is, after all, bipolliar. From proto at panix.com Wed Oct 13 10:49:43 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 05:49:43 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 13, 2021, at 3:51 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > I think it boils down to "why are you doing it?" and "how are you doing > it?" There's nothing wrong with cloning _per se_, but it can be done for > the wrong reasons. > > Gwynne: If and when it starts, apart from the clone-a-master-soldier plot, > I can see two main reasons: cloning someone incredibly talented, and cloning > a lost loved one - most likely a child. And if you clone Beethoven do you give him congenital syphilis? We have the example of Mark who had arguably the worst childhood possible, short of the children raised to be body donors. Now back on topic. ? The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret. ? Terry Pratchett, The Truth From wawenri at msn.com Wed Oct 13 13:15:37 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 12:15:37 +0000 Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I disagree with many of the picks. I?d like to ask the list which of Herself?s books are the most influential, as opposed to favorite. Has any other author won two best series Hugos? William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 2:35:16 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time I don't know if this has already been posted. I stumbled across this yesterday. Scrolling down the list there's a lot I agree with, a lot I haven't heard of, and quite a few that I don't think are the book I'd choose as the best example from that author. Yes, Lois is there, of course. They chose A Civil Campaign. I don't think that's the book I'd call the most influential of her books. https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbookriot.com%2Fthe-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time%2F%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR2lLmus6EJqlHRp-n-G5wh33IGXdHZa5Bv_Qii55jc796MML4gq1Y92cos&data=04%7C01%7C%7C1a351064e2fb4489478708d98e2468ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637697109292286261%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=VmhWQbu%2BzQPnwMzj4FZS%2BJ2zSHYHlveT89ialDsk0o8%3D&reserved=0 [https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2982.pcdn.co%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F10%2Fspace-suit-field-of-flowers.jpg.optimal.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7C1a351064e2fb4489478708d98e2468ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637697109292286261%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=y%2FIpTtOYdGBSWZ31Cr%2FXGsqyJ09%2BxCDOU7ia%2FrmHggk%3D&reserved=0] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time The most influential sci-fi books of all time examine humanity's longest-held hopes and deepest, most visceral fears. bookriot.com -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C1a351064e2fb4489478708d98e2468ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637697109292286261%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=sJmfuzfV3eYfuJSMCwxn%2BGEkdR47RtS4%2Fp%2Bwi9K6d6k%3D&reserved=0 From wawenri at msn.com Wed Oct 13 14:37:37 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 13:37:37 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Strike Message-ID: FYI, there will likely be a strike by the IATSE. Since Brian is a member, that will be a big hit. The main issue is that the producers are working the lower level people 14+ hours every day with sometimes only 6 hours between shifts. It?s cheaper to pay overtime than to hire more people or to have more shooting days. This is dangerous. The Teamsters, SAG, writers, and editors are going out with them so nothing will be shot (I almost said filmed but these days that is anachronistic) until it is settled. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From wawenri at msn.com Wed Oct 13 14:42:16 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 13:42:16 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Technology marches on Message-ID: The US Navy is deploying unmanned combat ships in areas (Persian Gulf) where they will likely see action. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From wawenri at msn.com Wed Oct 13 14:57:24 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 13:57:24 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You could say that Mark is a clone to replace Miles. Violently. Ser Galen had a very limited imagination. What if Mark had not been squeezed into a Miles size and shape but had been allowed to grow strong and healthy with a Komarran mindset and introduced on Barrayar as a nonmutie heir to Aral? The political disruption would almost been as bad as the assassination attempt. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 1:51:34 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] Cloning? From: Tony Zbaraschuk On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 5:26 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Has there been any any cloning shown in the nexus except for the Jackson > Whole body Leggers (a take on organleggers which is a take on bootleggers). > Does anyone think that human cloning is a good idea? I think it?s sickening. > I think it boils down to "why are you doing it?" and "how are you doing it?" There's nothing wrong with cloning _per se_, but it can be done for the wrong reasons. Gwynne: If and when it starts, apart from the clone-a-master-soldier plot, I can see two main reasons: cloning someone incredibly talented, and cloning a lost loved one - most likely a child. And both of those would be extremely nasty and unhealthy, for that child. Imagine if you were the clone of Einstein, or Beethoven (insert any other famous talented person there, it's a huge list.) Your childhood would be spent in training for only one career path, no matter what you wished to do. You'd be subtly or openly pushed towards the 'right' choices. And then everyone is watching you for signs of that genius. Everything you do is analysed, and judged. There's no easy learning curve, no privacy to make your mistakes, it's always centre stage for you. If you DO produce something it'll be compared, and any credit will be given to your (progenitor? not sure of the right term.) If it falls short, you'll get the blame. I can't see any positives in that life. If the cloning is done to replace a lost child, imagine the massive emotional pressure to display all the same mannerisms, have the same interests, as the child you've replaced. You're always acting a part, being watched, being pushed into a particular shape that you didn't choose. And imagine if you fall short. It's not going to be unconditional love, not for little Bobbie Mark II. Apart from all the scientific drawbacks and problems, I just can't see that it's a kind or positive thing to do to a child. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C38ebbdcb0c48423fb99308d98e1e4e0c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637697083078195570%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=RV0%2FrK6vV9O3k2toR%2FddCdDkkPQ2D5OLa8A8hN8qWG8%3D&reserved=0 From kcollett at hamilton.edu Wed Oct 13 15:20:22 2021 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Kathy Collett) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 10:20:22 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <524417BC-92A4-40DA-8C19-A78D8619446E@hamilton.edu> On Oct 13, 2021, at 9:57 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > Ser Galen had a very limited imagination. What if Mark had not been squeezed into a Miles size and shape but had been allowed to grow strong and healthy with a Komarran mindset and introduced on Barrayar as a nonmutie heir to Aral? The political disruption would almost been as bad as the assassination attempt. And much more likely to succeed in that disruption, at least initially. Ser Galen did not understand Aral and Cordelia at all, to have thought only about assassination (and only of Aral!). They would have taken Mark in as their child, as they did, even knowing about the political disruption it might cause. Having a ?normal? heir (but a Komarran clone? not sure the Counts would go for that anyway) would certainly have caused problems, but I have faith in Aral and Cordelia that they would have been able to work things out for Miles AND Mark. Katherine From lmb at matija.com Wed Oct 13 15:32:42 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 15:32:42 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13/10/2021 14:57, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > You could say that Mark is a clone to replace Miles. Violently. > Ser Galen had a very limited imagination. What if Mark had not been squeezed into a Miles size and shape but had been allowed to grow strong and healthy with a Komarran mindset and introduced on Barrayar as a nonmutie heir to Aral? The political disruption would almost been as bad as the assassination attempt. Whoa! That would be something to see. Count and countess Vorkosigan would probably accept him just as they did Mark (and for the same reasons) - but Miles might have felt that they accepted him because he is Miles-as-could-have-been.? Plenty of space there for the story to turn dark, or light. That is some idea, I love it! Someone should write fan fiction with that premise, I'd read it. From lmb at matija.com Wed Oct 13 15:33:11 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 15:33:11 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Strike In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34398030-1093-1eaf-436b-a2fd6d442ef9@matija.com> On 13/10/2021 14:37, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > FYI, there will likely be a strike by the IATSE. Since Brian is a member, that will be a big hit. The main issue is that the producers are working the lower level people 14+ hours every day with sometimes only 6 hours between shifts. It?s cheaper to pay overtime than to hire more people or to have more shooting days. This is dangerous. The Teamsters, SAG, writers, and editors are going out with them so nothing will be shot (I almost said filmed but these days that is anachronistic) until it is settled. Does that not count as US politics? From alzurite at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 16:25:25 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 11:25:25 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The Birthday Tixie Strikes: It's Mail Time Message-ID: (A letter on a scrap of paper torn from a school notebook, in a young hand, written with painstaking care.) To Viriginia Lee Berger, United States of America, Planet Earth From: A.A. Vorkosigan, Vorkosigan House, 13 Oct Dear Aunty Ginnilee, HAPPY BIRTHDAY I know you were invited to have a birthday party with us and I can hardly wait. I have a fabulous present for you, it explodes and everything. You have to meet my new cat. His name is Pudding. There will be ice cream. Also riddles. Yours, Aral Alexander P.S. He likes it when you hug him P.P.S. So do I. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From rgmolpus at flash.net Wed Oct 13 16:25:54 2021 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard G. Molpus) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 15:25:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: <524417BC-92A4-40DA-8C19-A78D8619446E@hamilton.edu> References: <524417BC-92A4-40DA-8C19-A78D8619446E@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: <937096447.2620182.1634138754733@mail.yahoo.com> A clone heir faces a near-insurmountable obstacle: Political acceptance. Had Mark, fully grown and clean-limbed appeared, everyone would have recognized that he was an agent provocateur, sent to start multiple political fights. ??Aral and Cordelia would have accepted him into the Vorkosigan family, but what would Gregor have done? Or Vorhalas? or Vormoncrief? If Gregor refuses him political acceptance; refused to allow him to become Arals' successor, or any for of heir - and the Council of Counts does the same; the Mark is unimportant. The family night send him to Hassidar; to be a local official; but in Vorbarr Sultana he'd be a ghost, Kidnapping Miles, doing a brain transplant into the MARK vII body, and sending his back would have been a real conundrum. Miles had been politically accepted, in his stunted, abridged form, and now he's a look-a-like to Ivan! Line Miles MkII, Ivan and Gregor together, and it's like looking at triplets! That puts a cat into the hen house! On Wednesday, October 13, 2021, 09:20:42 AM CDT, Kathy Collett wrote: On Oct 13, 2021, at 9:57 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > Ser Galen had a very limited imagination. What if Mark had not been squeezed into a Miles size and shape but had been allowed to grow strong and healthy with a Komarran mindset and introduced on Barrayar as a nonmutie heir to Aral? The political disruption would almost been as bad as the assassination attempt. And much more likely to succeed in that disruption, at least initially.? Ser Galen did not understand Aral and Cordelia at all, to have thought only about assassination (and only of Aral!).? They would have taken Mark in as their child, as they did, even knowing about the political disruption it might cause.? Having a ?normal? heir (but a Komarran clone? not sure the Counts would go for that anyway) would certainly have caused problems, but I have faith in Aral and Cordelia that they would have been able to work things out for Miles AND Mark. Katherine -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From jpolowin at hotmail.com Wed Oct 13 16:40:50 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 15:40:50 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John Lennard wrote: > * Plus, he was slapping at Shakespeare, having found the pseudo-movement of > Birnam Wood to Dunsinane a rotten swiz. If you're gonna have moving woods, > do it properly! >From a certain point of view, Macbeth was being rather blind. When you receive a prophecy that's conditional on such completely *bizarre* things coming to pass, you should spend a few minutes trying to parse it, rather than just blowing it off with a "well, *that'll* never happen!" But I've been re-reading _Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality_, which may be skewing my judgement. Joel From alzurite at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 16:57:23 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 11:57:23 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Elizabeth's Bujold Trivia Quiz Question #2 - the answer Message-ID: On Oct 8 I posted: > The quote is, "I've been living with obsessed men for the better part of my > life." > Can you name: > (1) The book > (2) The name of the person speaking > (3) The name of the person spoken to > Pat Mathews replied bravely: > Cordelia Spot on. > Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen No, it was actually "A Civil Campaign". Page 185 of the Earthlight edition. Jole, I think. She was talking to Mark about Enrique. I wouldn't be surprised if the same conversation didn't turn up with Jole! Pat Mathews' award of Excellence in Replying (1 out of 3 isn't bad!) consists of three hours of time in which she is guaranteed to have good food and drink, entertainment of her choice, no stress, no interruptions, company of choice (including pets), and total comfort. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From alzurite at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 16:59:09 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 11:59:09 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Elizabeth's Bujold Trivia Quiz Question #3 Message-ID: The quote is, " I was a little drunk. " Can you name: (1) The book (2) The name of the person speaking (3) The name of the person spoken to Bonus points if you can give context. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From alzurite at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 17:05:23 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 12:05:23 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time Message-ID: William A Wenrich said: > I disagree with many of the picks. I'm not sure how 'influential' was determined and I don't think the item mentioned its criteria. Influential on other writers? On readers? On the world? There were in any case some books on the list that I hated, some that I loved, and some I'd never heard of. > I?d like to ask the list which of Herself?s books are the most influential, as opposed to favorite. > Has any other author won two best series Hugos? I'd say Hugos are evidence of popularity rather than influence - though I suppose that is simpy influence with the readership. Why "A Civil Campaign" was chosen, I don't know. I'd have said one of the early Miles' books was Lois' "most influential" - probably "The Warrior's Apprentice". namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From fishman at panix.com Wed Oct 13 17:14:40 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 16:14:40 +0000 Subject: [LMB] =?utf-8?q?OT=3A_99p_sake_on_first_two_books_in_Quantum_Mag?= =?utf-8?q?ician_series_by_Derek_K=C3=BCnsken?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: But RATHER more expensive in the United States. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca To: "Lois McMaster Bujold list" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 10/12/2021 11:16:30 PM Subject: [LMB] OT: 99p sake on first two books in Quantum Magician series by Derek K?nsken >https://rebellionpublishing.com/product/the_quantum_magician/ > >From the publisher. > >-- Alayne McGregor >alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > >What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We >need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the >institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate >and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich >-- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From margdean56 at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 17:40:51 2021 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 10:40:51 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Strike In-Reply-To: <34398030-1093-1eaf-436b-a2fd6d442ef9@matija.com> References: <34398030-1093-1eaf-436b-a2fd6d442ef9@matija.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 8:33 AM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On 13/10/2021 14:37, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > FYI, there will likely be a strike by the IATSE. Since Brian is a > member, that will be a big hit. The main issue is that the producers are > working the lower level people 14+ hours every day with sometimes only 6 > hours between shifts. It?s cheaper to pay overtime than to hire more people > or to have more shooting days. This is dangerous. The Teamsters, SAG, > writers, and editors are going out with them so nothing will be shot (I > almost said filmed but these days that is anachronistic) until it is > settled. > Does that not count as US politics? > No, I wouldn't think so. It's just the entertainment industry and its workers that are involved, no politicians. --Margaret Dean From wawenri at msn.com Wed Oct 13 17:43:55 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 16:43:55 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Strike In-Reply-To: <34398030-1093-1eaf-436b-a2fd6d442ef9@matija.com> References: <34398030-1093-1eaf-436b-a2fd6d442ef9@matija.com> Message-ID: Sorry, but I don?t think so since it is a union matter and not governmental. Please let me know how this counts. I get slammed too many times so please explain the limits. I have been hit for mentioning a war 50 years gone, for mentioning a political movement that is active in several countries, and disagreeing with certain government decisions. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 8:33:11 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Cc: Matija Grabnar Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Strike On 13/10/2021 14:37, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > FYI, there will likely be a strike by the IATSE. Since Brian is a member, that will be a big hit. The main issue is that the producers are working the lower level people 14+ hours every day with sometimes only 6 hours between shifts. It?s cheaper to pay overtime than to hire more people or to have more shooting days. This is dangerous. The Teamsters, SAG, writers, and editors are going out with them so nothing will be shot (I almost said filmed but these days that is anachronistic) until it is settled. Does that not count as US politics? -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C5eddf13ef9fa4ff5935408d98e56656d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637697323982770760%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=k0pdrQJkakqFCMbFKr57NvPIUzm2obQA3hoLZEqVe4o%3D&reserved=0 From mathews55 at msn.com Wed Oct 13 18:11:56 2021 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 17:11:56 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Elizabeth's Bujold Trivia Quiz Question #2 - the answer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you! A nap with the furry ones might be in order. The ones that purr. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Elizabeth Holden Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 9:57 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: [LMB] Elizabeth's Bujold Trivia Quiz Question #2 - the answer On Oct 8 I posted: > The quote is, "I've been living with obsessed men for the better part of my > life." > Can you name: > (1) The book > (2) The name of the person speaking > (3) The name of the person spoken to > Pat Mathews replied bravely: > Cordelia Spot on. > Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen No, it was actually "A Civil Campaign". Page 185 of the Earthlight edition. Jole, I think. She was talking to Mark about Enrique. I wouldn't be surprised if the same conversation didn't turn up with Jole! Pat Mathews' award of Excellence in Replying (1 out of 3 isn't bad!) consists of three hours of time in which she is guaranteed to have good food and drink, entertainment of her choice, no stress, no interruptions, company of choice (including pets), and total comfort. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From egern at protonmail.com Wed Oct 13 18:14:26 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 17:14:26 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, October 12th, 2021 at 2:00 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > I have never advocated taking a medication compounded for use with animals. Ivermectin has been use by humans and compounded for human for many years. Yep. And is used in countries which do not have access to enough vaccination, to treat the virus, on anecdotal evidence. As has been pointed out. L From egern at protonmail.com Wed Oct 13 18:18:52 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 17:18:52 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials In-Reply-To: References: <77cea0f1-3f04-90ca-6b85-42f291695079@matija.com> Message-ID: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Monday, October 11th, 2021 at 7:39 PM, Marc Wilson wrote: > On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 12:37:56 +0100, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold > > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk wrote: > > > On 10/10/2021 11:55, Jason Long wrote: > > > > > That horse dewormer has a primary anti-parasitic use in humans. Its > > > > > > discoverers won a Nobel Prize. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin > > > > The people who are taking it are not taking it because they suffer from > > > > parasites. > > They kind of are: memetic ones, in their brains. *More than 52,000 people have died with coronavirus and though new infections are now low, they are not disappearing. It is in this context that Ivermectin - a drug that is used to treat parasitic worms - has gained a lot of attention. Some doctors have been prescribing it to patients with coronavirus, saying that they have seen anecdotal evidence that it can alleviate some of the worst effects of Covid-19* I do not think this doctors suffer from parasites in their brains - they are just trying to save patients with precious little vaccine or medication with which to do it. T From alzurite at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 18:50:13 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 13:50:13 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Strike Message-ID: Re the question of whether the IATSE strike qualified as American Politics: I don't think it does. It was news about Brian, which is okay, and the importance of the strike goes way beyond American borders. I could post it as a Canadian matter. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From Peterhews at protonmail.com Wed Oct 13 19:46:08 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 18:46:08 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wednesday, October 13th, 2021 at 15:57, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > You could say that Mark is a clone to replace Miles. Violently. > > Ser Galen had a very limited imagination. What if Mark had not been squeezed into a Miles size and shape but had been allowed to grow strong and healthy with a Komarran mindset and introduced on Barrayar as a nonmutie heir to Aral? The political disruption would almost been as bad as the assassination attempt. > > William A Wenrich > It's only under Betan law that a clone is treated as the equivalent of a "normal" descendant. Even a non-"mutant" Mark would be condemned for his unnatural galactic origins by exactly the conservatives who would be looking for an alternative to Miles. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From Peterhews at protonmail.com Wed Oct 13 20:01:36 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 19:01:36 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: <937096447.2620182.1634138754733@mail.yahoo.com> References: <524417BC-92A4-40DA-8C19-A78D8619446E@hamilton.edu> <937096447.2620182.1634138754733@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wednesday, October 13th, 2021 at 17:25, Richard G. Molpus wrote: > Kidnapping Miles, doing a brain transplant into the MARK vII body, and sending his back would have been a real conundrum. Miles had been politically accepted, in his stunted, abridged form, and now he's a look-a-like to Ivan! Line Miles MkII, Ivan and Gregor together, and it's like looking at triplets! > > That puts a cat into the hen house! That's a piece of mental sadism even LMB never thought of inflicting on Miles. Imagine him walking around every day knowing that he's "wearing a corpse," as he himself put it. Survivor guilt on steroids. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From wawenri at msn.com Wed Oct 13 20:39:04 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 19:39:04 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: <524417BC-92A4-40DA-8C19-A78D8619446E@hamilton.edu> <937096447.2620182.1634138754733@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Didn?t Miles have a nightmare about that? William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 1:01:36 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Cc: Peter Hews Subject: Re: [LMB] Cloning? On Wednesday, October 13th, 2021 at 17:25, Richard G. Molpus wrote: > Kidnapping Miles, doing a brain transplant into the MARK vII body, and sending his back would have been a real conundrum. Miles had been politically accepted, in his stunted, abridged form, and now he's a look-a-like to Ivan! Line Miles MkII, Ivan and Gregor together, and it's like looking at triplets! > > That puts a cat into the hen house! That's a piece of mental sadism even LMB never thought of inflicting on Miles. Imagine him walking around every day knowing that he's "wearing a corpse," as he himself put it. Survivor guilt on steroids. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cd2de7f65cbed45619bb908d98e7be88d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637697485101593276%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=1rWr0yhfPShs8SSbKQGGKJq1%2BTf8j%2FQlztHrEaSdPns%3D&reserved=0 From mathews55 at msn.com Wed Oct 13 21:41:51 2021 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 20:41:51 +0000 Subject: [LMB] The Birthday Tixie Strikes: It's Mail Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Scratch Pudding's ears for me and tickle him under the chin. Pat ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Elizabeth Holden Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 9:25 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: [LMB] The Birthday Tixie Strikes: It's Mail Time (A letter on a scrap of paper torn from a school notebook, in a young hand, written with painstaking care.) To Viriginia Lee Berger, United States of America, Planet Earth From: A.A. Vorkosigan, Vorkosigan House, 13 Oct Dear Aunty Ginnilee, HAPPY BIRTHDAY I know you were invited to have a birthday party with us and I can hardly wait. I have a fabulous present for you, it explodes and everything. You have to meet my new cat. His name is Pudding. There will be ice cream. Also riddles. Yours, Aral Alexander P.S. He likes it when you hug him P.P.S. So do I. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From kevink45 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 13 22:10:42 2021 From: kevink45 at hotmail.com (Kevin Kennedy) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 21:10:42 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: while waiting for the next Bujold Message-ID: I see that Amazon has all 4 of the Jaran books by Kate Elliott. In case you need a fat book to read on long dark chilly evenings. From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 22:20:36 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 17:20:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 11:41 AM Joel Polowin wrote: > > From a certain point of view, Macbeth was being rather blind. When you > receive a prophecy that's conditional on such completely *bizarre* > things coming to pass, you should spend a few minutes trying to parse > it, rather than just blowing it off with a "well, *that'll* never > happen!" But I've been re-reading _Harry Potter and the Methods of > Rationality_, which may be skewing my judgement. > > Joel > -- > I also rec that story, which has been popping up on the list quite a bit lately. Sylvia From alzurite at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 22:26:37 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 17:26:37 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: while waiting for the next Bujold Message-ID: Kevin Kennedy said: > I see that Amazon has all 4 of the Jaran books by Kate Elliott. In case you need a fat book to read on long dark chilly evenings. I haven't been able to find it. Do you have a link? namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From markgoldfield at hotmail.com Wed Oct 13 22:44:28 2021 From: markgoldfield at hotmail.com (Mark Goldfield) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 21:44:28 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: while waiting for the next Bujold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: See: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00GH2G8BA/ref=dbs_a_w_dp_b00gh2g8ba ________________________________ Kevin Kennedy said: > I see that Amazon has all 4 of the Jaran books by Kate Elliott. In case you need a fat book to read on long dark chilly evenings. I haven't been able to find it. Do you have a link? namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Wed Oct 13 23:24:33 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 23:24:33 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: AIHABF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 07:36:57 +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: >From: Marc Wilson > >On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 16:40:57 -0500, Eric Oppen >wrote: >>You luck! I've always wanted to fly in a balloon! > >It's ... odd. When the burner isn't running, there's very little noise, >as you're floating with the wind. You can float over someone's garden, >several hundred feet up, and chat to them. >The landing (which is more of a controlled crash, IME) is probably the >most exciting part. > >Gwynne: I'm terrified of heights, I can't even climb a ladder. When my >father turned 80 we gave him a hot-air-balloon ride and somehow the >family elected me to go with him. I decided to spend the whole time >with my eyes closed. So off we went. >And it was amazing. I could look out, and straight down, without feeling >that sick panic and paralysis. We just floated, silently, and I loved every >minute, leaning out and looking at everything. >Yes, the landing was interesting. But the trip was well worth it. AIUI, when you have a physical connection with the ground (e.g. you're on top of a cliff, or a building, or whatever) it's somehow more frightening than when you're suspended in mid-air. I've met people who can't go out on hotel balconies - having flown to the resort. I'm not sure what the mechanism is, here, unless that it's simply that evolution hasn't prepared anything for our mental toolkit to deal with flying. -- HANDLE WITH EXTREME CARE: This Product Contains Minute Electrically Charged Particles Moving at Velocities in Excess of Five Hundred Million Miles per Hour. -- Hewitt / Subitzky From fishman at panix.com Wed Oct 13 23:44:16 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 22:44:16 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: while waiting for the next Bujold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://www.amazon.com/Novels-Jaran-Earthly-Conquering-Becoming-ebook/dp/B00GH2G8BA/ref=sr_1_10?crid=UL4MW3Z3YWKD&dchild=1&keywords=kate+elliott&qid=1634164462&s=digital-text&sr=1-10 Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "Elizabeth Holden" To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 10/13/2021 5:26:37 PM Subject: [LMB] OT: while waiting for the next Bujold >Kevin Kennedy said: > >> I see that Amazon has all 4 of the Jaran books by Kate Elliott. In case >you need a fat book to read on long dark chilly evenings. > >I haven't been able to find it. Do you have a link? > >namaste, >Elizabeth > >Elizabeth Holden >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From howard at brazee.net Thu Oct 14 01:13:08 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 18:13:08 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Dowries? Message-ID: Mum has 20 babies in one year by surrogates and spends ?67,000 on their 16 nannies mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/mum-20-babies-one-year-24252473.amp?fbclid=IwAR3dd3CRyRXRDEjhe7pRLsNN-t614karght_xYuwIruBzRq4SSsyu8oibKs From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Oct 14 01:17:48 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 01:17:48 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: while waiting for the next Bujold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 22:44:16 +0000, "Harvey Fishman" wrote: >https://www.amazon.com/Novels-Jaran-Earthly-Conquering-Becoming-ebook/dp/B00GH2G8BA/ref=sr_1_10?crid=UL4MW3Z3YWKD&dchild=1&keywords=kate+elliott&qid=1634164462&s=digital-text&sr=1-10 You can trim this to: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GH2G8BA/ or https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00GH2G8BA/ ?15.19 on the UK site. etc All the ref= stuff is just tracking info, and everything between the domain name and /dp is just noise. -- Music with dinner is an insult both to the cook and to the violinist. - G.K. Chesterton From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Oct 14 04:42:08 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 03:42:08 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: tidsel It is in this context that Ivermectin - a drug that is used to treat parasitic worms - has gained a lot of attention. Some doctors have been prescribing it to patients with coronavirus, saying that they have seen anecdotal evidence that it can alleviate some of the worst effects of Covid-19* I do not think this doctors suffer from parasites in their brains - they are just trying to save patients with precious little vaccine or medication with which to do it. T Gwynne: I agree that desperate doctors are trying whatever they think could make a difference. But I wonder how long it'll be before a company with some low-selling product; any kind of human or animal medication, vitamin compound, etc; realises that they can make massive profits by setting up a few fake profiles online and touting the amazing powers of this product - of course the government is hiding it from you... etc. According to some real online research, a massively huge proportion of all those weird conspiracy theories and wild antivaxx rubbish comes from about a dozen people. It doesn't take much to set a snowball rolling down into an avalanche. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 05:17:06 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 23:17:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would think "Sranger in a Strange Land" would be Heinlein's most influential book since also it introduced a word to the vocabulary. Grok. Samuel R. Delaney's book "Babel 17" I'd agree with. And Of course LMB's "Civil Campaign" I'm glad to see Leigh Brackett on the list. But I think Zelazny's Amber series as well as J. R.R. Tolkien should have been on this list not to mention Fritz Lieber. On Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 7:15 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > I disagree with many of the picks. I?d like to ask the list which of > Herself?s books are the most influential, as opposed to favorite. > Has any other author won two best series Hugos? > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Gwynne Powell > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 2:35:16 AM > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time > > > > I don't know if this has already been posted. I stumbled across this > yesterday. > Scrolling down the list there's a lot I agree with, a lot I haven't heard > of, and > quite a few that I don't think are the book I'd choose as the best example > from that author. > > Yes, Lois is there, of course. They chose A Civil Campaign. I don't think > that's the > book I'd call the most influential of her books. > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbookriot.com%2Fthe-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time%2F%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR2lLmus6EJqlHRp-n-G5wh33IGXdHZa5Bv_Qii55jc796MML4gq1Y92cos&data=04%7C01%7C%7C1a351064e2fb4489478708d98e2468ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637697109292286261%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=VmhWQbu%2BzQPnwMzj4FZS%2BJ2zSHYHlveT89ialDsk0o8%3D&reserved=0 > [ > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2982.pcdn.co%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F10%2Fspace-suit-field-of-flowers.jpg.optimal.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7C1a351064e2fb4489478708d98e2468ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637697109292286261%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=y%2FIpTtOYdGBSWZ31Cr%2FXGsqyJ09%2BxCDOU7ia%2FrmHggk%3D&reserved=0 > ]< > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbookriot.com%2Fthe-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time%2F%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR2lLmus6EJqlHRp-n-G5wh33IGXdHZa5Bv_Qii55jc796MML4gq1Y92cos&data=04%7C01%7C%7C1a351064e2fb4489478708d98e2468ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637697109292286261%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=VmhWQbu%2BzQPnwMzj4FZS%2BJ2zSHYHlveT89ialDsk0o8%3D&reserved=0 > > > The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time< > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbookriot.com%2Fthe-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time%2F%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR2lLmus6EJqlHRp-n-G5wh33IGXdHZa5Bv_Qii55jc796MML4gq1Y92cos&data=04%7C01%7C%7C1a351064e2fb4489478708d98e2468ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637697109292286261%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=VmhWQbu%2BzQPnwMzj4FZS%2BJ2zSHYHlveT89ialDsk0o8%3D&reserved=0 > > > The most influential sci-fi books of all time examine humanity's > longest-held hopes and deepest, most visceral fears. > bookriot.com > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C1a351064e2fb4489478708d98e2468ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637697109292286261%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=sJmfuzfV3eYfuJSMCwxn%2BGEkdR47RtS4%2Fp%2Bwi9K6d6k%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 05:29:13 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 23:29:13 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Technology marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There was an video of a quiet large stealth plane that got out. It seemed to lack a cockpit. Some people are speculating that it might be the sixth generation stealth Plane in which a pilot is optional. http://www.news.com.au>military On Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 8:42 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > The US Navy is deploying unmanned combat ships in areas (Persian Gulf) > where they will likely see action. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 05:36:49 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 23:36:49 -0500 Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought "A Civil Campaign" was a instant classic. It had elements of romance and comedy that really put Miles in his place. It was a well balanced book. I can reread it over and over and still appreciate the comedy of errors that lead to the Miles dinner fiasco. Rarely do I laugh out loud when I read, but this book made me guffaw. On Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 11:05 AM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > William A Wenrich said: > > > I disagree with many of the picks. > > I'm not sure how 'influential' was determined and I don't think the item > mentioned its criteria. Influential on other writers? On readers? On the > world? There were in any case some books on the list that I hated, some > that I loved, and some I'd never heard of. > > > I?d like to ask the list which of Herself?s books are the most > influential, as opposed to favorite. > > Has any other author won two best series Hugos? > > I'd say Hugos are evidence of popularity rather than influence - though I > suppose that is simpy influence with the readership. > > Why "A Civil Campaign" was chosen, I don't know. I'd have said one of the > early Miles' books was Lois' "most influential" - probably "The Warrior's > Apprentice". > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alzurite at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 05:38:23 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 00:38:23 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time Message-ID: Raymond Collins said: > I would think "Sranger in a Strange Land" would be Heinlein's most > influential book since also it introduced a word to the vocabulary. Grok. It was the one I had heard of when I was not yet into science fiction. > Samuel R. Delaney's book "Babel 17" I'd agree with. I haven't read it, so I'd put Dhalgren on the list instead. Which I have read. But I don't know how much either of them are known outside of SF circles. Maybe the article means "influential within SF circles", though. > And Of course LMB's "Civil Campaign" Why that, rather than another of her books? > I think Zelazny's Amber series Probably. > as well as J. R.R. Tolkien should have been on this list Tolkien wrote fantasy, not science fiction. He is perhaps the only person I know of to have written linguistic fiction, and got away with it. > Fritz Lieber How so? . namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 05:42:51 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 23:42:51 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Strike In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Although I side with the union members I cant help thinking the way things are right now it'll be unfortunate. I hope things get resolved quickly. On Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 12:50 PM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Re the question of whether the IATSE strike qualified as American Politics: > I don't think it does. It was news about Brian, which is okay, and the > importance of the strike goes way beyond American borders. I could post it > as a Canadian matter. > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 05:53:41 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 23:53:41 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: <524417BC-92A4-40DA-8C19-A78D8619446E@hamilton.edu> <937096447.2620182.1634138754733@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I wonder how much it cost Ser Galen to clone mark. Do all the surgery etc. There must have been a money trail for ImpSec to follow. Ser Galen may have just been the tip of the iceberg. On Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 2:39 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Didn?t Miles have a nightmare about that? > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 1:01:36 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > Cc: Peter Hews > Subject: Re: [LMB] Cloning? > > > > > > On Wednesday, October 13th, 2021 at 17:25, Richard G. Molpus < > rgmolpus at flash.net> wrote: > > > Kidnapping Miles, doing a brain transplant into the MARK vII body, and > sending his back would have been a real conundrum. Miles had been > politically accepted, in his stunted, abridged form, and now he's a > look-a-like to Ivan! Line Miles MkII, Ivan and Gregor together, and it's > like looking at triplets! > > > > That puts a cat into the hen house! > > That's a piece of mental sadism even LMB never thought of inflicting on > Miles. Imagine him walking around every day knowing that he's "wearing a > corpse," as he himself put it. Survivor guilt on steroids. > > Peter Hews > > Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, > Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cd2de7f65cbed45619bb908d98e7be88d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637697485101593276%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=1rWr0yhfPShs8SSbKQGGKJq1%2BTf8j%2FQlztHrEaSdPns%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From dmb0317 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 05:55:23 2021 From: dmb0317 at gmail.com (David Bowen) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 21:55:23 -0700 Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 9:17 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > But I think Zelazny's Amber series as well as J. R.R. Tolkien should have > been on this > list not to mention Fritz Lieber. > > The list claims to be a list of most influential science fiction and seems by its choices to be deliberately excluding fantasy. That would leave Tolkien out. Lieber did, I believe, write some science fiction but is best remembered for Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories which are more on the fantasy side of the line. It's been a while since I've read the Amber books, but I'd lean toward counting them as fantasy as well, though that's a much less clear choice. So certainly influential, but not influential science fiction. David Bowen From baur at chello.at Thu Oct 14 05:56:16 2021 From: baur at chello.at (baur baur) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 06:56:16 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] OT: Technology marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77562318.746182.1634187376674@webmail.mymagenta.at> seems that the link you sent is incomplete .. and with such videos there is always the question if it is real or photoshop servus markus > Raymond Collins hat am 14.10.2021 06:29 geschrieben: > > > There was an video of a quiet large stealth plane that got out. It seemed > to lack a cockpit. Some people are speculating that it might be the sixth > generation stealth Plane in which a pilot is optional. > http://www.news.com.au>military > > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 8:42 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > > The US Navy is deploying unmanned combat ships in areas (Persian Gulf) > > where they will likely see action. > > > > William A Wenrich > > > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Oct 14 06:05:18 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 05:05:18 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: AIHABF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Marc Wilson >Gwynne: I'm terrified of heights, I can't even climb a ladder. When my >father turned 80 we gave him a hot-air-balloon ride and somehow the >family elected me to go with him. I decided to spend the whole time >with my eyes closed. So off we went. >And it was amazing. I could look out, and straight down, without feeling >that sick panic and paralysis. We just floated, silently, and I loved every >minute, leaning out and looking at everything.... AIUI, when you have a physical connection with the ground (e.g. you're on top of a cliff, or a building, or whatever) it's somehow more frightening than when you're suspended in mid-air. I've met people who can't go out on hotel balconies - having flown to the resort. I'm not sure what the mechanism is, here, unless that it's simply that evolution hasn't prepared anything for our mental toolkit to deal with flying. Gwynne: Interesting point. I haven't heard that theory before, but it makes a lot of sense. I think for me there's more than just height issues, though. I actually live on top of a cliff. I love the view, and I'm fine even at the edge, because I have a sturdy fence that I know is safe. I can hold on there and look out or even straight down with no worries. I suspect that, for me, part of the problem is that I have serious balance issues (middle ear and ankle damage) so I need to be anchored - even just touching a wall with one finger will suddenly orient me and make me feel a bit safer, if I'm up high (when I was teaching, I would have to climb up onto a desk to hang artwork on high display boards, or strings across the room. Getting up there and making myself stand up took so much determination. Once I made myself reach up, even just touching that string made me feel better - and it's not as if the string would give any help at all if I fell over. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 06:13:48 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 00:13:48 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: AIHABF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I never had a problem with heights until I suffered a inner ear problem that affected my balance. Of course I have this weird problem watching people on TV or movies of cliff and building edges. "Vertigo" still freaks me out. On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 12:05 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Marc Wilson > > >Gwynne: I'm terrified of heights, I can't even climb a ladder. When my > >father turned 80 we gave him a hot-air-balloon ride and somehow the > >family elected me to go with him. I decided to spend the whole time > >with my eyes closed. So off we went. > >And it was amazing. I could look out, and straight down, without feeling > >that sick panic and paralysis. We just floated, silently, and I loved > every > >minute, leaning out and looking at everything.... > > AIUI, when you have a physical connection with the ground (e.g. you're > on top of a cliff, or a building, or whatever) it's somehow more > frightening than when you're suspended in mid-air. > I've met people who can't go out on hotel balconies - having flown to > the resort. > I'm not sure what the mechanism is, here, unless that it's simply that > evolution hasn't prepared anything for our mental toolkit to deal with > flying. > > Gwynne: Interesting point. I haven't heard that theory before, but it makes > a lot of sense. I think for me there's more than just height issues, > though. > I actually live on top of a cliff. I love the view, and I'm fine even at > the edge, > because I have a sturdy fence that I know is safe. I can hold on there and > look out or even straight down with no worries. I suspect that, for me, > part > of the problem is that I have serious balance issues (middle ear and ankle > damage) so I need to be anchored - even just touching a wall with one > finger > will suddenly orient me and make me feel a bit safer, if I'm up high (when > I > was teaching, I would have to climb up onto a desk to hang artwork on > high display boards, or strings across the room. Getting up there and > making > myself stand up took so much determination. Once I made myself reach up, > even just touching that string made me feel better - and it's not as if the > string would give any help at all if I fell over. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 06:31:07 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 00:31:07 -0500 Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well Fritz Lieber's "The Big Time" about two time traveling cultures engaged in the time wars also known as the "Change Wars" and "Gather Darkness" about aa dystopian theocracy 300 years after a nuclear war. Also the short story "A Bucket of Air" still haunts me I have that story in a science fiction anthology edited by Andre Norton. On Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 11:38 PM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Raymond Collins said: > > > I would think "Sranger in a Strange Land" would be Heinlein's most > > influential book since also it introduced a word to the vocabulary. Grok. > > It was the one I had heard of when I was not yet into science fiction. > > > Samuel R. Delaney's book "Babel 17" I'd agree with. > > I haven't read it, so I'd put Dhalgren on the list instead. Which I have > read. But I don't know how much either of them are known outside of SF > circles. Maybe the article means "influential within SF circles", though. > > > And Of course LMB's "Civil Campaign" > > Why that, rather than another of her books? > > > I think Zelazny's Amber series > > Probably. > > > as well as J. R.R. Tolkien should have been on this list > > Tolkien wrote fantasy, not science fiction. He is perhaps the only person I > know of to have written linguistic fiction, and got away with it. > > > Fritz Lieber > > How so? > . > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 06:35:49 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 00:35:49 -0500 Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think the first five Amber stories featuring Corwin leans towards fantasy despite introducing despite introducing rifles to Amber but I think the second five deal more with metaphysics. I think Zelazny wanted to blur the lines between Science fiction and fantasy with the Merlin books. On Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 11:55 PM David Bowen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 9:17 PM Raymond Collins > wrote: > > > But I think Zelazny's Amber series as well as J. R.R. Tolkien should have > > been on this > > list not to mention Fritz Lieber. > > > > The list claims to be a list of most influential science fiction and > seems > by its choices to be deliberately excluding fantasy. That would leave > Tolkien out. Lieber did, I believe, write some science fiction but is best > remembered for Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories which are more on the > fantasy side of the line. It's been a while since I've read the Amber > books, but I'd lean toward counting them as fantasy as well, though that's > a much less clear choice. So certainly influential, but not influential > science fiction. > > David Bowen > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 06:55:50 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 00:55:50 -0500 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yep, while truth crawls slower then a turtle BS flies faster then light. On Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 10:42 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: tidsel > > It is in this context that Ivermectin - a drug that is used to treat > parasitic worms - has gained a lot of attention. Some doctors have been > prescribing it to patients with coronavirus, saying that they have seen > anecdotal evidence that it can alleviate some of the worst effects of > Covid-19* > I do not think this doctors suffer from parasites in their brains - they > are just trying to save patients with precious little vaccine or medication > with which to do it. > T > > Gwynne: I agree that desperate doctors are trying whatever they think > could make a difference. But I wonder how long it'll be before a company > with some low-selling product; any kind of human or animal medication, > vitamin compound, etc; realises that they can make massive profits by > setting up a few fake profiles online and touting the amazing powers of > this product - of course the government is hiding it from you... etc. > > According to some real online research, a massively huge proportion of > all those weird conspiracy theories and wild antivaxx rubbish comes from > about a dozen people. It doesn't take much to set a snowball rolling down > into an avalanche. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From Peterhews at protonmail.com Thu Oct 14 08:34:00 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 07:34:00 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: <282B2E42-1267-415D-9078-D87B7DD58A64@panix.com> References: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> <282B2E42-1267-415D-9078-D87B7DD58A64@panix.com> Message-ID: <2I19yNLfrr5CPuBGd22QO4EJEVrFygG_MMgxIOuO3qTY3pUxvX2L6YGCysYcN2aDdYjMXZ9vceDgQq_GDWDM_Nw73v_H1R6ZYmoj5AzbvR8=@protonmail.com> On Wednesday, October 13th, 2021 at 11:28, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > Has anyone considered the possibility of God[1 being transgendered? > > > [1] ?God? is a title, not a name. Many people use it to refer to YaHuWaHu. > I can think of at least one (not counting those, like Loki, who've changed sex temporarily.) The Japanese Goddess Kwannon or Kwanyin is reckoned by historians to have originally been the male Boddhisatva Avalokitashvara. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From Peterhews at protonmail.com Thu Oct 14 08:39:01 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 07:39:01 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Technology marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wednesday, October 13th, 2021 at 15:42, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > The US Navy is deploying unmanned combat ships in areas (Persian Gulf) where they will likely see action. > So the next war will be started by a rogue robot. I've seen this one before. I wouldn't mind so much living in a series of disaster movies, if they weren't all cheesy '50s scripts. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From proto at panix.com Thu Oct 14 10:10:22 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 05:10:22 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Dowries? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8BF446D1-5259-40F2-A442-9148EEA31DF1@panix.com> > On Oct 13, 2021, at 8:13 PM, brazee wrote: > > Mum has 20 babies in one year by surrogates and spends ?67,000 on their 16 nannies > > > mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/mum-20-babies-one-year-24252473.amp?fbclid=IwAR3dd3CRyRXRDEjhe7pRLsNN-t614karght_xYuwIruBzRq4SSsyu8oibKs > > > ? Cordelia was a piker. I wonder if Segyar in Cordelia?s time is attracting Betan immigrants. From proto at panix.com Thu Oct 14 10:35:48 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 05:35:48 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: <524417BC-92A4-40DA-8C19-A78D8619446E@hamilton.edu> <937096447.2620182.1634138754733@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 14, 2021, at 12:53 AM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > I wonder how much it cost Ser Galen to clone mark. Do all the surgery etc. > There must have been a money trail for ImpSec to follow. Ser Galen may have > just been the tip of the iceberg. I?m sure that Impsec followed up on that. If he had enough money Jackson?s Hole would do the job, but can you trust any House not to spill the beans? Just another loose end that we shall probably never get a canonical answer to. ? It?s better to be approximately correct than completely wrong. From proto at panix.com Thu Oct 14 10:48:34 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 05:48:34 -0400 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47066D64-A094-450D-93F9-25723BD14DD8@panix.com> > On Oct 14, 2021, at 1:55 AM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > Yep, while truth crawls slower then a turtle BS flies faster then light. Or ?Lies can travel around the Earth, while truth is putting on its pants.? It?s that lies can be targeted to people?s prejudices inclusive or interests (more effective if both) while truth is oft opposed and hence inconvenient. ? It?s better to be approximately correct than completely wrong. From proto at panix.com Thu Oct 14 11:16:43 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 06:16:43 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: <2I19yNLfrr5CPuBGd22QO4EJEVrFygG_MMgxIOuO3qTY3pUxvX2L6YGCysYcN2aDdYjMXZ9vceDgQq_GDWDM_Nw73v_H1R6ZYmoj5AzbvR8=@protonmail.com> References: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> <282B2E42-1267-415D-9078-D87B7DD58A64@panix.com> <2I19yNLfrr5CPuBGd22QO4EJEVrFygG_MMgxIOuO3qTY3pUxvX2L6YGCysYcN2aDdYjMXZ9vceDgQq_GDWDM_Nw73v_H1R6ZYmoj5AzbvR8=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 14, 2021, at 3:34 AM, Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > I can think of at least one (not counting those, like Loki, who've changed sex temporarily.) The Japanese Goddess Kwannon or Kwanyin is reckoned by historians to have originally been the male Boddhisatva Avalokitashvara. Below I am talking about realized boddhisattvas instead of humans on the path. which can also be called boddhisttvas. The Bodhisattvas used to be human beings who qualified for total enlightenment and turned it down in order to help all sentient (capable of suffering) beings to achieve enlightenment and hence are more analogous to Christian saints than gods. They are conceived of as beings who have wish granting powers based on merit (and grace in the case of the saints). In forms of Buddhism with boddhisttavas one is supposed to aspire to become a boddhisttava and is in fact inevitable in time. The distinctions may be lost on some practitioners of both religions being to fine a distinction. ? It?s better to be approximately correct than completely wrong. From vanlook19 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 14:18:29 2021 From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 06:18:29 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was explaining to a coworker that I dye my hair (Miss Clairol 110). They were surprised, as they thought the auburn was natural. (Good to know one has selected the appropriate undertones for a natural look.) So they asked what my natural hair color was. Brown and silver, I replied. And then started giggling, because I realized my hair was Vorkosigan colored ... and they weren't going to grok that. BJ From wawenri at msn.com Thu Oct 14 14:18:50 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 13:18:50 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: AIHABF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In Mission of Gravity, Barlenan is able to look over a cliff near the pole until he can see the connection (the side of the cliff) with the ground. That?s when he loses composure. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 11:05:18 PM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] OT: AIHABF From: Marc Wilson >Gwynne: I'm terrified of heights, I can't even climb a ladder. When my >father turned 80 we gave him a hot-air-balloon ride and somehow the >family elected me to go with him. I decided to spend the whole time >with my eyes closed. So off we went. >And it was amazing. I could look out, and straight down, without feeling >that sick panic and paralysis. We just floated, silently, and I loved every >minute, leaning out and looking at everything.... AIUI, when you have a physical connection with the ground (e.g. you're on top of a cliff, or a building, or whatever) it's somehow more frightening than when you're suspended in mid-air. I've met people who can't go out on hotel balconies - having flown to the resort. I'm not sure what the mechanism is, here, unless that it's simply that evolution hasn't prepared anything for our mental toolkit to deal with flying. Gwynne: Interesting point. I haven't heard that theory before, but it makes a lot of sense. I think for me there's more than just height issues, though. I actually live on top of a cliff. I love the view, and I'm fine even at the edge, because I have a sturdy fence that I know is safe. I can hold on there and look out or even straight down with no worries. I suspect that, for me, part of the problem is that I have serious balance issues (middle ear and ankle damage) so I need to be anchored - even just touching a wall with one finger will suddenly orient me and make me feel a bit safer, if I'm up high (when I was teaching, I would have to climb up onto a desk to hang artwork on high display boards, or strings across the room. Getting up there and making myself stand up took so much determination. Once I made myself reach up, even just touching that string made me feel better - and it's not as if the string would give any help at all if I fell over. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb0361c8b3d524850390608d98ed03eab%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637697847321839375%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3JA5H6zBw6IsOLi0HF2Th1M%2BZiQ0TGU9KTmiOJ8BH50%3D&reserved=0 From mvanspanje at home.nl Thu Oct 14 14:51:14 2021 From: mvanspanje at home.nl (Mieke) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 15:51:14 +0200 Subject: [LMB] OT: AIHABF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --------------------------------------------------------------------------Half of what we call madness is just some poor slob dealing with pain by a strategy that annoys the people around him - Lois McMaster Bujold. > > From: Marc Wilson > AIUI, when you have a physical connection with the ground (e.g. you're > on top of a cliff, or a building, or whatever) it's somehow more > frightening than when you're suspended in mid-air. That is because you are NOT suspended in mid-air. You are at the floor of an airplane, or the basket of a balloon or an elevator. You do have safe contact to your immediate surroundings. From becca7108 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 15:22:15 2021 From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:22:15 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: fear of heights, was AIHABF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Long years ago, when my husband and I were courting, we went to the Grand Canyon (on the way back from visiting his parents in Tuscon). I was wearing shorts and a t-shirt, We were walking along the canyon trail when a thunderstorm went sweeping through the canyon below us. (seeing a thunderstorm from above is very interesting). There was an outjutting rock at one point, and Chris went out on it feeling very much like Thor God of Thunder. He turned around to beckon me to join him, and saw me with my hands over my mouth in controlled panic. When he asked me what was wrong, all I could say was, "you've got the car keys!" he's never let me live that down. But I noticed last time I was there, there is a wall between the path and the edge, and that rock isn't there anymore. From tlambs1138 at charter.net Thu Oct 14 18:05:25 2021 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:05:25 -0700 Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time Message-ID: <02ce01d7c11d$aec5a600$0c50f200$@charter.net> >Tolkien wrote fantasy, not science fiction. He is perhaps the only person I know of to have written linguistic fiction, and got away with it. >namaste, >Elizabeth I respectfully disagree--Suzette Haden Elgin wrote Native Tongue and other stories about feminism and languages, and then the Ozark trilogy written in High Appalachian. (she had a PhD in linguistics. Like the Patrician of Ankh-Morpork, she majored in languages). Jean Lamb tlambs1138 at charter.net https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20 From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 18:12:16 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 12:12:16 -0500 Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time In-Reply-To: <02ce01d7c11d$aec5a600$0c50f200$@charter.net> References: <02ce01d7c11d$aec5a600$0c50f200$@charter.net> Message-ID: I've seen a grammar for Elgin's Laadan for sale at a con, although that was many years ago. On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 12:05 PM Jean Lamb wrote: > >Tolkien wrote fantasy, not science fiction. He is perhaps the only person > I > know of to have written linguistic fiction, and got away with it. > > >namaste, > >Elizabeth > > I respectfully disagree--Suzette Haden Elgin wrote Native Tongue and other > stories about feminism and languages, and then the Ozark trilogy written in > High Appalachian. (she had a PhD in linguistics. Like the Patrician of > Ankh-Morpork, she majored in languages). > > > Jean Lamb > tlambs1138 at charter.net > https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20 > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Oct 14 18:55:05 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 18:55:05 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: fear of heights, was AIHABF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:22:15 -0400, Becca Price wrote: >Long years ago, when my husband and I were courting, we went to the Grand >Canyon (on the way back from visiting his parents in Tuscon). I was wearing >shorts and a t-shirt, We were walking along the canyon trail when a >thunderstorm went sweeping through the canyon below us. (seeing a >thunderstorm from above is very interesting). There was an outjutting rock >at one point, and Chris went out on it feeling very much like Thor God of >Thunder. He turned around to beckon me to join him, and saw me with my >hands over my mouth in controlled panic. When he asked me what was wrong, >all I could say was, "you've got the car keys!" > >he's never let me live that down. But I noticed last time I was there, >there is a wall between the path and the edge, and that rock isn't there >anymore. There's a rock wall in Norway called the Troll Wall, and it's a mile straight(ish) down. There is a similar outcrop, where someone has painted "Exit - skydivers only" (it's popular with BASE jumpers). It's an odd feeling, looking down that distance: some things don't resolve at first, until you realise that the "moss" you can see is actually made of substantial trees, much further away than you first thought. -- A mind's reach should exceed its grasp or what's a metaphor? From wawenri at msn.com Thu Oct 14 21:22:09 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:22:09 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My hair is black and white. The beard is almost pure white. I?ve never seen a reason to change it. I look how I look. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of B Van Look Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 7:18:29 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color I was explaining to a coworker that I dye my hair (Miss Clairol 110). They were surprised, as they thought the auburn was natural. (Good to know one has selected the appropriate undertones for a natural look.) So they asked what my natural hair color was. Brown and silver, I replied. And then started giggling, because I realized my hair was Vorkosigan colored ... and they weren't going to grok that. BJ -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C8e1aeb555a244802f59d08d98f15287c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637698143302633222%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=NyqxhT0qVwSMfO8NEzumSKJmIGvgL51TbmXr8RLLvC4%3D&reserved=0 From mathews55 at msn.com Thu Oct 14 21:31:16 2021 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:31:16 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My hair is - was - that dark brown without a trace of red, which often goes with blue-gray-aqua eyes. It silvered up so nicely I have never seen any reason to change the color in the least, though for a long time the color has been pewter gray. But I have also seen brunettes whose gray hairs have a yellowish tinge in a state of nature, and understand completely why they would like to color it. My father's hair was sandy, later very pale sandy, then iron-gray; again, on the silver spectrum, for what that's worth. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of WILLIAM A WENRICH Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 2:22 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Hair color My hair is black and white. The beard is almost pure white. I?ve never seen a reason to change it. I look how I look. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of B Van Look Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 7:18:29 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color I was explaining to a coworker that I dye my hair (Miss Clairol 110). They were surprised, as they thought the auburn was natural. (Good to know one has selected the appropriate undertones for a natural look.) So they asked what my natural hair color was. Brown and silver, I replied. And then started giggling, because I realized my hair was Vorkosigan colored ... and they weren't going to grok that. BJ -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C8e1aeb555a244802f59d08d98f15287c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637698143302633222%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=NyqxhT0qVwSMfO8NEzumSKJmIGvgL51TbmXr8RLLvC4%3D&reserved=0 -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From becca7108 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 22:14:26 2021 From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 17:14:26 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I used to dye my hair blue, or at least brown with blue highlights to cover the gray. Haven't done so since the pandemic started, though. When/if we ever start going out and about more, I may be tempted to dye it blue again, just so I can be a blue-haired little old lady. From alzurite at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 22:48:59 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 17:48:59 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time In-Reply-To: <02ce01d7c11d$aec5a600$0c50f200$@charter.net> References: <02ce01d7c11d$aec5a600$0c50f200$@charter.net> Message-ID: Cool! I didn't know that. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:05 PM Jean Lamb wrote: > >Tolkien wrote fantasy, not science fiction. He is perhaps the only person > I > know of to have written linguistic fiction, and got away with it. > > >namaste, > >Elizabeth > > I respectfully disagree--Suzette Haden Elgin wrote Native Tongue and other > stories about feminism and languages, and then the Ozark trilogy written in > High Appalachian. (she had a PhD in linguistics. Like the Patrician of > Ankh-Morpork, she majored in languages). > > > Jean Lamb > tlambs1138 at charter.net > https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20 > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to azurite at azurite.ca > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From kcollett at hamilton.edu Fri Oct 15 00:28:35 2021 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Kathy Collett) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 19:28:35 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time In-Reply-To: <02ce01d7c11d$aec5a600$0c50f200$@charter.net> References: <02ce01d7c11d$aec5a600$0c50f200$@charter.net> Message-ID: <7B0D4354-58C4-4582-9A58-02C4F6C9DA00@hamilton.edu> On Oct 14, 2021, at 1:05 PM, Jean Lamb wrote: > >> Tolkien wrote fantasy, not science fiction. He is perhaps the only person I > know of to have written linguistic fiction, and got away with it. > >> namaste, >> Elizabeth > > I respectfully disagree--Suzette Haden Elgin wrote Native Tongue and other > stories about feminism and languages, and then the Ozark trilogy written in > High Appalachian. (she had a PhD in linguistics. Like the Patrician of > Ankh-Morpork, she majored in languages). What about Russell Hoban?s Riddley Walker? Katherine From mathews55 at msn.com Fri Oct 15 00:39:39 2021 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 23:39:39 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: P.S. You're a man. On you, it looks distinguished. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of WILLIAM A WENRICH Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 2:22 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Hair color My hair is black and white. The beard is almost pure white. I?ve never seen a reason to change it. I look how I look. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of B Van Look Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 7:18:29 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color I was explaining to a coworker that I dye my hair (Miss Clairol 110). They were surprised, as they thought the auburn was natural. (Good to know one has selected the appropriate undertones for a natural look.) So they asked what my natural hair color was. Brown and silver, I replied. And then started giggling, because I realized my hair was Vorkosigan colored ... and they weren't going to grok that. BJ -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C8e1aeb555a244802f59d08d98f15287c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637698143302633222%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=NyqxhT0qVwSMfO8NEzumSKJmIGvgL51TbmXr8RLLvC4%3D&reserved=0 -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 15 00:51:44 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 17:51:44 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2CE67CD1-47E9-4D4C-8536-5E9272999B8C@brazee.net> > On Oct 14, 2021, at 5:39 PM, Pat Mathews wrote: > > P.S. You're a man. On you, it looks distinguished. I didn?t mind my beard growing white. But I have a very masculine hair pattern. (That?s my story and I?m sticking to it) From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 01:37:53 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 19:37:53 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Technology marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Look! Up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane it's. . Oh crap! . . . It's Skynet! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!! On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 2:39 AM Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > On Wednesday, October 13th, 2021 at 15:42, WILLIAM A WENRICH < > wawenri at msn.com> wrote: > > > The US Navy is deploying unmanned combat ships in areas (Persian Gulf) > where they will likely see action. > > > > So the next war will be started by a rogue robot. I've seen this one > before. > > I wouldn't mind so much living in a series of disaster movies, if they > weren't all cheesy '50s scripts. > > Peter Hews > > Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, > Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 01:40:32 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 19:40:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Dowries? In-Reply-To: <8BF446D1-5259-40F2-A442-9148EEA31DF1@panix.com> References: <8BF446D1-5259-40F2-A442-9148EEA31DF1@panix.com> Message-ID: That would certainly add a interesting dynamic to Sergyer's culture. On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 4:10 AM WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > > > On Oct 13, 2021, at 8:13 PM, brazee wrote: > > > > Mum has 20 babies in one year by surrogates and spends ?67,000 on their > 16 nannies > > > > > > > mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/mum-20-babies-one-year-24252473.amp?fbclid=IwAR3dd3CRyRXRDEjhe7pRLsNN-t614karght_xYuwIruBzRq4SSsyu8oibKs > > > > > > ? > > Cordelia was a piker. > > I wonder if Segyar in Cordelia?s time is attracting Betan immigrants. > > > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From saffronrose at me.com Fri Oct 15 02:26:20 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 18:26:20 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 14, 2021, at 6:18 AM, B Van Look wrote: > > ?I was explaining to a coworker that I dye my hair (Miss Clairol 110). > They were surprised, as they thought the auburn was natural. (Good to know > one has selected the appropriate undertones for a natural look.) > So they asked what my natural hair color was. > > Brown and silver, I replied. > > And then started giggling, because I realized my hair was Vorkosigan > colored ... and they weren't going to grok that. My hair takes neither cellophanes nor dyes, even from a salon, although I might try blue/green/purple one of these days. Right now there?s a black/charcoal section in front, but the rest of it is sliver to white. I?m fine with that. A couple of years ago (2019?) I was fixing my latte (rather bitter) and a much younger woman admired my hair and asked if I?d dyed it! New one on me, but I told her that?s the way it grows. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Oct 15 02:49:12 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 01:49:12 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: B Van Look I was explaining to a coworker that I dye my hair (Miss Clairol 110). They were surprised, as they thought the auburn was natural. (Good to know one has selected the appropriate undertones for a natural look.) So they asked what my natural hair color was. Brown and silver, I replied. And then started giggling, because I realized my hair was Vorkosigan colored ... and they weren't going to grok that. BJ Gwynne: I've had fun colouring my hair for many years (there was the purple phase... a variety of coppers and auburns... plain dark brown - which was boring... ) When the first lockdown hit I finally found out my true hair colour; I'd assumed that I'd be grey by now, but I was still mostly boring mid brown with only a scattering of grey. I was able to revert to my chosen copper as soon as lockdown ended. Our latest lockdown ended on Monday. I was at the hairdressers... on Monday. From vanlook19 at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 03:03:38 2021 From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 19:03:38 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:31 PM Pat Mathews wrote: > But I have also seen brunettes whose gray hairs have a yellowish tinge in > a state of nature, and understand completely why they would like to color > it. > I've managed to avoid that, thank goodness. Originally, I wanted to be a redhead for fun, but it's for an entirely different reason these days. The first time I colored my hair with Miss Clairol, I discovered my scalp eczema went away. Didn't get that effect from other brands. So I keep coloring my hair with MC. It appears, after experimenting with letting my hair color go natural for 18months, to be causation, not correlation. I don't know what happens on my scalp during the coloring process, I just know something happens and I like what happens. BJ From vanlook19 at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 03:07:39 2021 From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 19:07:39 -0700 Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time In-Reply-To: <02ce01d7c11d$aec5a600$0c50f200$@charter.net> References: <02ce01d7c11d$aec5a600$0c50f200$@charter.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 10:05 AM Jean Lamb wrote: > I respectfully disagree--Suzette Haden Elgin wrote Native Tongue and other > stories about feminism and languages, and then the Ozark trilogy written in > High Appalachian. (she had a PhD in linguistics. Like the Patrician of > Ankh-Morpork, she majored in languages). > And her LiveJournal account (ozarque), before the Alzheimer's/dementia set in, was FASCINATING. Not just about her books and about language, either. She'd talk about the process of eldering, and she documented her own end-of-full functionality until she couldn't anymore. BJ From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 03:37:54 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 21:37:54 -0500 Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time In-Reply-To: References: <02ce01d7c11d$aec5a600$0c50f200$@charter.net> Message-ID: And the H. Beam Piper story "Omnilingual" turns on a question of language---and some languages' universality. On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 9:08 PM B Van Look wrote: > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 10:05 AM Jean Lamb wrote: > > > I respectfully disagree--Suzette Haden Elgin wrote Native Tongue and > other > > stories about feminism and languages, and then the Ozark trilogy written > in > > High Appalachian. (she had a PhD in linguistics. Like the Patrician of > > Ankh-Morpork, she majored in languages). > > > > And her LiveJournal account (ozarque), before the Alzheimer's/dementia set > in, was FASCINATING. Not just about her books and about language, either. > She'd talk about the process of eldering, and she documented her own > end-of-full functionality until she couldn't anymore. > > BJ > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 03:38:35 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 21:38:35 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: fear of heights, was AIHABF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Back in 1979 I went on a Outward Bound hiking and mountain climbing event in the Three Sisters Mountain State Park. We managed to summit on the Middle Sister which was a heady experience. Standing over the glacier, was a large rocky outcrop which was the highest point of the mountain. Of course we all stood on it. Maybe we might have jumped on it. I took a picture of the group with my camera too. Anyway as we prepared to leave we heard this loud crack. We turned around and watched the huge rock outcrop break off and tumbled down the glacier. Our instructor was as white as a sheet. On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 12:55 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > On Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:22:15 -0400, Becca Price > wrote: > > >Long years ago, when my husband and I were courting, we went to the Grand > >Canyon (on the way back from visiting his parents in Tuscon). I was > wearing > >shorts and a t-shirt, We were walking along the canyon trail when a > >thunderstorm went sweeping through the canyon below us. (seeing a > >thunderstorm from above is very interesting). There was an outjutting > rock > >at one point, and Chris went out on it feeling very much like Thor God of > >Thunder. He turned around to beckon me to join him, and saw me with my > >hands over my mouth in controlled panic. When he asked me what was wrong, > >all I could say was, "you've got the car keys!" > > > >he's never let me live that down. But I noticed last time I was there, > >there is a wall between the path and the edge, and that rock isn't there > >anymore. > > There's a rock wall in Norway called the Troll Wall, and it's a mile > straight(ish) down. There is a similar outcrop, where someone has > painted "Exit - skydivers only" (it's popular with BASE jumpers). > > It's an odd feeling, looking down that distance: some things don't > resolve at first, until you realise that the "moss" you can see is > actually made of substantial trees, much further away than you first > thought. > -- > A mind's reach should exceed its grasp or what's a metaphor? > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 03:46:23 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 21:46:23 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm about the same brown with a bit of gray (I like to call it silver) when I was a kid I was blonde. On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 8:49 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: B Van Look > > I was explaining to a coworker that I dye my hair (Miss Clairol 110). > They were surprised, as they thought the auburn was natural. (Good to know > one has selected the appropriate undertones for a natural look.) > So they asked what my natural hair color was. > Brown and silver, I replied. > And then started giggling, because I realized my hair was Vorkosigan > colored ... and they weren't going to grok that. > BJ > > Gwynne: I've had fun colouring my hair for many years (there was the purple > phase... a variety of coppers and auburns... plain dark brown - which was > boring... ) When the first lockdown hit I finally found out my true hair > colour; > I'd assumed that I'd be grey by now, but I was still mostly boring mid > brown > with only a scattering of grey. I was able to revert to my chosen copper > as soon > as lockdown ended. > Our latest lockdown ended on Monday. I was at the hairdressers... on > Monday. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 03:48:40 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 21:48:40 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wouldn't do it myself. I find I LIKE the silver look. On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 9:46 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > I'm about the same brown with a bit of gray (I like to call it silver) > when I was a kid I was blonde. > > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 8:49 PM Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > > From: B Van Look > > > > I was explaining to a coworker that I dye my hair (Miss Clairol 110). > > They were surprised, as they thought the auburn was natural. (Good to > know > > one has selected the appropriate undertones for a natural look.) > > So they asked what my natural hair color was. > > Brown and silver, I replied. > > And then started giggling, because I realized my hair was Vorkosigan > > colored ... and they weren't going to grok that. > > BJ > > > > Gwynne: I've had fun colouring my hair for many years (there was the > purple > > phase... a variety of coppers and auburns... plain dark brown - which was > > boring... ) When the first lockdown hit I finally found out my true hair > > colour; > > I'd assumed that I'd be grey by now, but I was still mostly boring mid > > brown > > with only a scattering of grey. I was able to revert to my chosen copper > > as soon > > as lockdown ended. > > Our latest lockdown ended on Monday. I was at the hairdressers... on > > Monday. > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 03:49:18 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 21:49:18 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My hair is brown with a bit of gray. When I had a beard it was red. I don't know what color it would be now, since I haven't grown one since I was about 35. On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 9:03 PM B Van Look wrote: > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:31 PM Pat Mathews wrote: > > > But I have also seen brunettes whose gray hairs have a yellowish tinge in > > a state of nature, and understand completely why they would like to color > > it. > > > > I've managed to avoid that, thank goodness. Originally, I wanted to be a > redhead for fun, but it's for an entirely different reason these days. > The first time I colored my hair with Miss Clairol, I discovered my scalp > eczema went away. Didn't get that effect from other brands. So I keep > coloring my hair with MC. > > It appears, after experimenting with letting my hair color go natural for > 18months, to be causation, not correlation. I don't know what happens on my > scalp during the coloring process, I just know something happens and I like > what happens. > > BJ > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 03:49:52 2021 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 21:49:52 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: fear of heights, was AIHABF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What is "summiting," and how is it different from climbing to the top? On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 9:39 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > Back in 1979 I went on a Outward Bound hiking and mountain climbing event > in the Three Sisters Mountain State Park. We managed to summit on the > Middle Sister which was a heady experience. Standing over the glacier, was > a large rocky outcrop which was the highest point of the mountain. Of > course we all stood on it. Maybe we might have jumped on it. I took a > picture of the group with my camera too. Anyway as we prepared to leave we > heard this loud crack. We turned around and watched the huge rock outcrop > break off and tumbled down the glacier. > Our instructor was as white as a sheet. > > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 12:55 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > > > On Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:22:15 -0400, Becca Price > > wrote: > > > > >Long years ago, when my husband and I were courting, we went to the > Grand > > >Canyon (on the way back from visiting his parents in Tuscon). I was > > wearing > > >shorts and a t-shirt, We were walking along the canyon trail when a > > >thunderstorm went sweeping through the canyon below us. (seeing a > > >thunderstorm from above is very interesting). There was an outjutting > > rock > > >at one point, and Chris went out on it feeling very much like Thor God > of > > >Thunder. He turned around to beckon me to join him, and saw me with my > > >hands over my mouth in controlled panic. When he asked me what was > wrong, > > >all I could say was, "you've got the car keys!" > > > > > >he's never let me live that down. But I noticed last time I was there, > > >there is a wall between the path and the edge, and that rock isn't there > > >anymore. > > > > There's a rock wall in Norway called the Troll Wall, and it's a mile > > straight(ish) down. There is a similar outcrop, where someone has > > painted "Exit - skydivers only" (it's popular with BASE jumpers). > > > > It's an odd feeling, looking down that distance: some things don't > > resolve at first, until you realise that the "moss" you can see is > > actually made of substantial trees, much further away than you first > > thought. > > -- > > A mind's reach should exceed its grasp or what's a metaphor? > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 03:56:01 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 21:56:01 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: fear of heights, was AIHABF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Less words and it sounds mountain-climby. On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 9:50 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > What is "summiting," and how is it different from climbing to the top? > > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 9:39 PM Raymond Collins > wrote: > > > Back in 1979 I went on a Outward Bound hiking and mountain climbing event > > in the Three Sisters Mountain State Park. We managed to summit on the > > Middle Sister which was a heady experience. Standing over the glacier, > was > > a large rocky outcrop which was the highest point of the mountain. Of > > course we all stood on it. Maybe we might have jumped on it. I took a > > picture of the group with my camera too. Anyway as we prepared to leave > we > > heard this loud crack. We turned around and watched the huge rock outcrop > > break off and tumbled down the glacier. > > Our instructor was as white as a sheet. > > > > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 12:55 PM Marc Wilson > wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 14 Oct 2021 10:22:15 -0400, Becca Price > > > wrote: > > > > > > >Long years ago, when my husband and I were courting, we went to the > > Grand > > > >Canyon (on the way back from visiting his parents in Tuscon). I was > > > wearing > > > >shorts and a t-shirt, We were walking along the canyon trail when a > > > >thunderstorm went sweeping through the canyon below us. (seeing a > > > >thunderstorm from above is very interesting). There was an outjutting > > > rock > > > >at one point, and Chris went out on it feeling very much like Thor God > > of > > > >Thunder. He turned around to beckon me to join him, and saw me with my > > > >hands over my mouth in controlled panic. When he asked me what was > > wrong, > > > >all I could say was, "you've got the car keys!" > > > > > > > >he's never let me live that down. But I noticed last time I was there, > > > >there is a wall between the path and the edge, and that rock isn't > there > > > >anymore. > > > > > > There's a rock wall in Norway called the Troll Wall, and it's a mile > > > straight(ish) down. There is a similar outcrop, where someone has > > > painted "Exit - skydivers only" (it's popular with BASE jumpers). > > > > > > It's an odd feeling, looking down that distance: some things don't > > > resolve at first, until you realise that the "moss" you can see is > > > actually made of substantial trees, much further away than you first > > > thought. > > > -- > > > A mind's reach should exceed its grasp or what's a metaphor? > > > > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From proto at panix.com Fri Oct 15 09:28:51 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 04:28:51 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: fear of heights, was AIHABF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E3BCCC7-314A-4E69-B7D6-43083AF60C81@panix.com> > On Oct 14, 2021, at 1:55 PM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > A mind?s reach should exceed its grasp or what's a metaphor? On some keyboards there used to be a meta key, so you could literally type a meta-4. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Oct 15 11:12:27 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 10:12:27 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gwynne: For a while I had an 'experimental' stage; brown with pink streaks, purple, copper, etc - a different colour every few months. It was fun. I was on playground duty (Ohhh how I don't miss that....) and some dear little munchkin came up to me (I usually taught the older kids, but the little guys always loved to have a chat in the playground.) This dear little boy asked me, seriously, why I kept having different colours in my hair. I answered him, "Well you wouldn't want to have your hair just one colour all your life, would you." He looked thoughtful and walked away. I wonder what he looks like now. From wawenri at msn.com Fri Oct 15 13:35:28 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:35:28 +0000 Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time In-Reply-To: References: <02ce01d7c11d$aec5a600$0c50f200$@charter.net> Message-ID: Add The Languages of Pao for languages designed to produce certain types of populations. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Eric Oppen Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 8:37:54 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time And the H. Beam Piper story "Omnilingual" turns on a question of language---and some languages' universality. On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 9:08 PM B Van Look wrote: > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 10:05 AM Jean Lamb wrote: > > > I respectfully disagree--Suzette Haden Elgin wrote Native Tongue and > other > > stories about feminism and languages, and then the Ozark trilogy written > in > > High Appalachian. (she had a PhD in linguistics. Like the Patrician of > > Ankh-Morpork, she majored in languages). > > > > And her LiveJournal account (ozarque), before the Alzheimer's/dementia set > in, was FASCINATING. Not just about her books and about language, either. > She'd talk about the process of eldering, and she documented her own > end-of-full functionality until she couldn't anymore. > > BJ > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cd6e6dcbad8ae49c6008208d98f84d516%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637698622941701142%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=lXEvN8WH9j%2Fk3FqG9e7KHwjgM0aPeVavFxAgxrK%2BRxw%3D&reserved=0 > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cd6e6dcbad8ae49c6008208d98f84d516%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637698622941711089%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=AiM6aZnwT0m9BPEKtBrpunNcHAUioPOAWPl%2BfVgTKwI%3D&reserved=0 From wawenri at msn.com Fri Oct 15 13:36:51 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:36:51 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hurrah for the lockdown end! William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 7:49:12 PM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color From: B Van Look I was explaining to a coworker that I dye my hair (Miss Clairol 110). They were surprised, as they thought the auburn was natural. (Good to know one has selected the appropriate undertones for a natural look.) So they asked what my natural hair color was. Brown and silver, I replied. And then started giggling, because I realized my hair was Vorkosigan colored ... and they weren't going to grok that. BJ Gwynne: I've had fun colouring my hair for many years (there was the purple phase... a variety of coppers and auburns... plain dark brown - which was boring... ) When the first lockdown hit I finally found out my true hair colour; I'd assumed that I'd be grey by now, but I was still mostly boring mid brown with only a scattering of grey. I was able to revert to my chosen copper as soon as lockdown ended. Our latest lockdown ended on Monday. I was at the hairdressers... on Monday. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cabcda14f15984c24fa9d08d98f7e03d8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637698593662579582%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=2viUh9CRl7adfr4PCykVedpnqquMla7vs6QPpWxGFZY%3D&reserved=0 From wawenri at msn.com Fri Oct 15 13:41:39 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:41:39 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My beard turned 50 on June 6th. That is I last shaved my chin on the day I left the USAF, 6/5/1971. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Raymond Collins Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 8:49:18 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Hair color My hair is brown with a bit of gray. When I had a beard it was red. I don't know what color it would be now, since I haven't grown one since I was about 35. On Thu, Oct 14, 2021, 9:03 PM B Van Look wrote: > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:31 PM Pat Mathews wrote: > > > But I have also seen brunettes whose gray hairs have a yellowish tinge in > > a state of nature, and understand completely why they would like to color > > it. > > > > I've managed to avoid that, thank goodness. Originally, I wanted to be a > redhead for fun, but it's for an entirely different reason these days. > The first time I colored my hair with Miss Clairol, I discovered my scalp > eczema went away. Didn't get that effect from other brands. So I keep > coloring my hair with MC. > > It appears, after experimenting with letting my hair color go natural for > 18months, to be causation, not correlation. I don't know what happens on my > scalp during the coloring process, I just know something happens and I like > what happens. > > BJ > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ccea8ee79d0ac41c7be7608d98f8671ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637698629860365568%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=y%2FHal1os4%2FVeuKi5Iiv4hfWVcU2JabROccHX0IoLj1k%3D&reserved=0 > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ccea8ee79d0ac41c7be7608d98f8671ad%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637698629860365568%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=y%2FHal1os4%2FVeuKi5Iiv4hfWVcU2JabROccHX0IoLj1k%3D&reserved=0 From howard at brazee.net Fri Oct 15 14:05:17 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 07:05:17 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9ABA15FB-ABC0-4DA6-BD72-72856F905519@brazee.net> > On Oct 15, 2021, at 6:41 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > My beard turned 50 on June 6th. That is I last shaved my chin on the day I left the USAF, 6/5/1971. I left the USAF about 5 years later, and had a beard except for around 3 years when I worked for EDS. From john.c.lennard at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 16:28:37 2021 From: john.c.lennard at gmail.com (John Lennard) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:28:37 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages Message-ID: Joel: From a certain point of view, Macbeth was being rather blind. When you > receive a prophecy that's conditional on such completely *bizarre* > things coming to pass, you should spend a few minutes trying to parse > it, rather than just blowing it off with a "well, *that'll* never > happen!" But I've been re-reading _Harry Potter and the Methods of > Rationality_, which may be skewing my judgement. Sylvia: I also rec that story, which has been popping up on the list quite a bit lately. John: Thirded, and heh -- Joel's quite right, of course, but the tradition of being fooled by (wilfully) ambiguous prophecy is at least as old as Pyrrhus (he of Pyrrhic victories). One of the best and most positive takes on that is Le Guin's late novel *Voices*. Eric: [Tolkien] loved trees and green things in general, and disliked industrialization pretty strongly. [...] He was never too comfortable with orcs and such being "always evil," and changed his mind several times about where they'd come from. John: Oh yeah. He once said trees were hated for the crime of being large and alive ; and on the origin and salvability of orcs, you bet he changed his mind, dancing all round the Manichaean heresy the while. For a fic response see jodancingtree's sequence: jodancingtree, Another Way of Leaving, Following the Other Wizard: journey into healing, The Queen?s Orc, The Grey at the End of the World http://www.storiesofarda.com/chapterlistview.asp?SID=1285 http://www.storiesofarda.com/chapterlistview.asp?SID=1286 http://www.storiesofarda.com/chapterlistview.asp?SID=1741 http://www.storiesofarda.com/chapterlistview.asp?SID=3500 Marina: Thanks for a more complete answer, and a new bit (swiz) of UK slang! John: You're very welcome. Of 'swizz' or 'swiz' the OED says "A disappointment or 'swindle' [...] Hence as v. trans., to trick by swindling, to subject to disappointment". Earliest citations 1913, 1915, from a Dict. of Slang and a letter by Wilfred Owen. Rather schoolboy, and now distinctly dated/consciously retro, but still known from heavy usage in the Willans & Searle books featuring Nigel Molesworth, beginning with *Down with Skool!*. -- John Lennard, MA DPhil. (Oxon.), MA (WU) Associate Member, Hughes Hall, Cambridge Independent Scholar www.humanities-ebooks.co.uk *Mock-Death in Shakespeare's Plays* The first full study of Shakespeare's favourite dramatic device *The Exasperating Case of David Weber, or The Slow Death of The Honorverse* 22 years ago Weber created it and in the last ten he has broken it ... *Tolkien's Triumph: The Strange History of *The Lord of the Rings Just how did a 1000-page book with 6 appendices come to sell 8,500 copies per day? *Talking Sense About *Fifty Shades of Grey*, or Fanfiction, Feminism, and BDSM* The story the media *isn't* telling ... Available from Kindle Stores, and in PDF from the author. From alzurite at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 16:51:09 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 11:51:09 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixies - Letter for Jean Lamb Message-ID: [Jean Lamb was born on this day in 1954, an auspicious year. In 2021, she has received a bouquet of exquisite yellow and blue flowers, whose unusual beauty caused her to try to learn their name, but without luck, as they were from a planet far away and a time in our future. A birthday card was attached - a picture of a castle by a lake - with the following note.] [The letter head reads, in formal gilded script, simply "Countess Vorkosigan".] October 15 My dear Jean, It's your birthday again - I do wish you the best in health and happiness, as does Miles. We are taking it easy at Vorkosigan Surleau this week, and I do hope you can join us. It's been unseasonably warm, with a lot of screaming and splashing about in the water, and horse-back rides - beautiful to watch, but not my thing, so you can I can walk in the gardens, if you wish - I think you'll like what I did with them this year - or simply sit and talk, or even sit and read. It's all about relaxation and good times. Yours, Ekaterin namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From alzurite at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 16:52:48 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 11:52:48 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixie - Jerrie Adkins Message-ID: [A letter for Jerrie Adkins, written in a sprawling yet elegant hand, barely containing its own exuberance in the words. The letter is folded into a birthday card which shows 58 candles on a 3-tiered cake with pink and scarlet rosettes, surrounded by rainbow-coloured musical notes. Inside, the card says, "Happy Birthday", and is signed, "Ivan and Tej".] The note: Oh Jerrie, I hope your birthday is as wonderful as it ought to be. I've arranged a party for you - not a large one, but utterly musical, with some friends of mine who are experimenting with lyrics and sound - very traditional in some ways, exquisitely new in others, and lovely to dance to. Please come! Ivan and I are so looking forward to seeing you again. Be well, be happy, see you soon, Tej. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From wawenri at msn.com Fri Oct 15 17:04:01 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:04:01 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Dune Message-ID: Brian got me tickets for the new Dune. I hope that it?s better than the last one. William A Wenrich * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. From becca7108 at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 17:11:05 2021 From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:11:05 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Birthday letters Message-ID: I'm absolutely loving the birthday letters! A hearty round of applause for the Birthday Tixie! -- *"...there is no effort without error and shortcoming" - Theodore Roosevelt * From domelouann at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 17:34:57 2021 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 11:34:57 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Dune In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Apparently Andy Weir likes it very much. I'm inclined to look favorably based on that. On Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 11:04 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Brian got me tickets for the new Dune. I hope that it?s better than the > last one. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner, utterly dependent on God?s grace. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to domelouann at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From fishman at panix.com Fri Oct 15 17:40:25 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:40:25 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: The Novels of the Jaran In-Reply-To: References: <02ce01d7c11d$aec5a600$0c50f200$@charter.net> Message-ID: For whatever it is worth, Portalist.com seems to have the four Novels of the Jaran, which I believed was mentioned here recently, on sale for $3.99. Harvey From alzurite at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 18:00:44 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 13:00:44 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Birthday letters Message-ID: Becca Price said: > I'm absolutely loving the birthday letters! A hearty round of applause for > the Birthday Tixie! Thank you for saying so! I am delighted that you're enjoying them. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From alzurite at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 18:08:34 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 13:08:34 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The Portalist Message-ID: Harvey Fishman: > For whatever it is worth, Portalist.com seems to have the four Novels of > the Jaran, which I believed was mentioned here recently, on sale for > $3.99. That link didn't lead me anywhere - did you mean theportalist.com? Browsing their site, I couldn't figure out where they are based (but I assume the U.S.) or whether they sell to Canada or not. I don't really want to go to the effort of trying to buy a book and failing... Does anyone know if they sell internationally? namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Fri Oct 15 18:27:52 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 18:27:52 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:31:16 +0000, Pat Mathews wrote: >My hair is - was - that dark brown without a trace of red, which often goes with blue-gray-aqua eyes. It silvered up so nicely I have never seen any reason to change the color in the least, though for a long time the color has been pewter gray. Mine is similar. I always thought of my self as dark-haired, until I went to work in California for the DoJ. They have to fill in the details for you, to get your access pass, and it said: "Hair: gray". And I thought, "Well, fuck." It had sort of crept up on me. :) -- Anger makes dull men witty, but it keeps them poor. - Francis Bacon From focsle1928 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 15 18:29:34 2021 From: focsle1928 at yahoo.com (Jane Hotchkiss) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 17:29:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1702239170.1747821.1634318974653@mail.yahoo.com> -All- of my female cousins and -all- of my former female bosses color(ed) their hair. I never have and have zero intention of doing so - I really dislike the contrast of dyed color and roots growing out, and refuse to be that variety of "slaves to the bottle". My hair was a very dark brown and is now salt & pepper.? Jane Hotchkiss From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Fri Oct 15 18:30:35 2021 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 18:30:35 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0jejmg1cib8ojsiag0t2avgouq0edkgdje@4ax.com> On Thu, 14 Oct 2021 21:46:23 -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: >I'm about the same brown with a bit of gray (I like to call it silver) >when I was a kid I was blonde. I've been dark-haired since my teens, but as a kid I was *platinum* blond. And skinny: when we played "Man from Uncle", I was Ilya. If I didn't remember being that kid, I'd be hard to convince that the photos were of me. -- Anger makes dull men witty, but it keeps them poor. - Francis Bacon From fishman at panix.com Fri Oct 15 18:33:58 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 17:33:58 +0000 Subject: [LMB] The Portalist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For whatever it is worth, their CV seems to be Open Road Integrated Media, Inc. All rights reserved. | 180 Maiden Lane | New York, NY | 10038. I do not know if they sell internationally, but I do know that I have many books published by them on my Kindle. Harvey From: "Elizabeth Holden" To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 10/15/2021 1:08:34 PM Subject: [LMB] The Portalist >Harvey Fishman: > >> For whatever it is worth, Portalist.com seems to have the four Novels of >> the Jaran, which I believed was mentioned here recently, on sale for >> $3.99. > >That link didn't lead me anywhere - did you mean theportalist.com? > >Browsing their site, I couldn't figure out where they are based (but I >assume the U.S.) or whether they sell to Canada or not. I don't really want >to go to the effort of trying to buy a book and failing... Does anyone know >if they sell internationally? > >namaste, >Elizabeth > >Elizabeth Holden >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From alzurite at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 18:37:55 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 13:37:55 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: The Portalist Message-ID: Harvey elucidates: > For whatever it is worth, their CV seems to be Open Road Integrated > Media, Inc. All rights reserved. | 180 Maiden Lane | New York, NY | > 10038. I do not know if they sell internationally, but I do know that I > have many books published by them on my Kindle. I will assume they don't sell to Canada, then. My experience has been that unless a company makes it clear that they sell and ship internationally, they do not; and this goes double for books, and triple for kindle books. Frustrating, but there you have it. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From kdschoen1 at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 19:05:23 2021 From: kdschoen1 at gmail.com (Kenton Schoen) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 14:05:23 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Birthday letters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I, too have been enjoying the letters. (I have a1/2 birthday coming next month. He says, wagging his tail,[or at least wriggling his butt as best a tail-less ape can do without that expressive appendage], while looking up with an innocent expression hoping for treats from the high table.) Shouldn't we be celebrating these important holidays with a VorKosigan tea party, soon? Kenton On Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 12:11 PM Becca Price wrote: > I'm absolutely loving the birthday letters! A hearty round of applause for > the Birthday Tixie! > > -- > *"...there is no effort without error and shortcoming" - Theodore Roosevelt > * > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kdschoen1 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alzurite at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 19:38:33 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 14:38:33 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: The Portalist Message-ID: Markus Baur said, > i believe i made to offer to get kindle books from amazon.com, > amazon.co.uk and amazon.de and transfer them alos to you . You did, and I thank you. Meanwhile it gives me great pleasure to vent and rant about the unfairness of international borders when it comes to commerce in general and books in particular. I realize this is annoying to many, but really, it gives me great satisfaction. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From baur at chello.at Fri Oct 15 19:53:15 2021 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 20:53:15 +0200 Subject: [LMB] OT: The Portalist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4814daa6-9d8c-a65b-8822-c85945e069ef@chello.at> no problem - i enjoy watching a nice rant . 8) servus markus Am 15.10.2021 um 20:38 schrieb Elizabeth Holden: > Markus Baur said, > >> i believe i made to offer to get kindle books from amazon.com, >> amazon.co.uk and amazon.de and transfer them alos > to you . > > You did, and I thank you. > > Meanwhile it gives me great pleasure to vent and rant about the unfairness > of international borders when it comes to commerce in general and books in > particular. > I realize this is annoying to many, but really, it gives me great > satisfaction. > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 20:34:15 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 15:34:15 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Dune In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've heard that it's a very good film; it doesn't quite preserve characterization, but that's almost inevitable with any adaptation. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 20:37:49 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 15:37:49 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: <282B2E42-1267-415D-9078-D87B7DD58A64@panix.com> References: <2qo3mg9pftu2ddtlkrtcnhd553bk93s5u4@4ax.com> <282B2E42-1267-415D-9078-D87B7DD58A64@panix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 5:28 AM WalterStuartBushell wrote: > Has anyone considered the possibility of God[1 being transgendered? > *Invisible Sun* has a female sea goddess 'transitioning' to a male wind god. But that's an RPG, not a real religion. The vast majority of real religions would consider that to be blasphemous on multiple, simultaneous levels. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 20:40:33 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 15:40:33 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *The Warrior's Apprentice* is less well-composed than *A Civil Campaign* is. People voting on most-influential-works often try to include a most-representative example of a creator's CV, because they're really voting for the author as an influence, not the work. Matt G. From tlambs1138 at charter.net Fri Oct 15 21:30:43 2021 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 13:30:43 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Delightful birthday letter Message-ID: <05bf01d7c203$8762d290$962877b0$@charter.net> I do wish I could go; but Mike fell two days ago and his pain level is Not Fun, so I must do even more around here than I was used to. Do give the Countess my sad regrets... (And thanks, Elizabeth, it was a great letter!). Jean Lamb tlambs1138 at charter.net https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20 From alzurite at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 21:34:10 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:34:10 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Delightful birthday letter Message-ID: Jean said: > I do wish I could go; but Mike fell two days ago and his pain level is Not > Fun, so I must do even more around here than I was used to. Oh dear. I hope he gets better soon. > Do give the Countess my sad regrets... I am sure we won't mind a postponement. > (And thanks, Elizabeth, it was a great letter!). Glad you enjoyed it. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 21:42:46 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:42:46 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Reading in different languages In-Reply-To: <02CC67CA-7C98-448C-B2C0-9F360C69BA1D@me.com> References: <02CC67CA-7C98-448C-B2C0-9F360C69BA1D@me.com> Message-ID: Tolkien played with pretty much every possible explanation for orcs: they were corrupted animals, they were biological robots, they were the remnants of mutated and corrupted elves, some were lesser Maiar, etc. It's really quite strange, because he was completely comfortable with the idea that evil could corrupt a soul by force; why shouldn't an entire species be corruptible? Especially if they are also under the constant spiritual influence of a major power? But Tolkien wanted souls to come from Eru, even though some early bits suggest that the thing that is so special about the Children is their ability to generate new souls, and so 'good' orcs would have to be possible. Ignoring the reality that people are shaped by their environments, and a corrupted society created by amping up all of the destructive tendencies already present in all creation isn't likely to contain exceptions which are tolerated, there may have been good people among the orcs, just as there may have been good people among the fighting forces of WWI. But, as Tolkien himself said, "we were all orcs". I just go with the basic explanation: elves and humans with their basic emotional drives altered, their gross physiologies changed, and linked directly to the will of evil archangels, are going to be orcish. There's nothing preventing good from being chosen despite that - it's just very, very, very unlikely. And it probably resulted in quick death. Matt G. From dbernat at gol.com Fri Oct 15 21:54:11 2021 From: dbernat at gol.com (dbernat) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 05:54:11 +0900 Subject: [LMB] The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <85faa30faf3acadd128ef90460668f56@gol.com> Matthew George wrote: > *The Warrior's Apprentice* is less well-composed than *A Civil > Campaign* is. > People voting on most-influential-works often try to include a > most-representative example of a creator's CV, because they're really > voting for the author as an influence, not the work. Harlan Ellison didn't make the list. Granted that he wrote mostly short SF. From fred.fredex at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 22:46:13 2021 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 17:46:13 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: The Novels of the Jaran In-Reply-To: References: <02ce01d7c11d$aec5a600$0c50f200$@charter.net> Message-ID: portalist.com resolves to a "domain for sale" page. On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 12:40 PM Harvey Fishman wrote: > For whatever it is worth, Portalist.com seems to have the four Novels of > the Jaran, which I believed was mentioned here recently, on sale for > $3.99. > > Harvey > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From fred.fredex at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 22:54:21 2021 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 17:54:21 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The Portalist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: where are they on sale for $3.99? I connect to theportalist.com, search for Jaran and get buttons for Amazon, et al. Amazon's is 7.99, B&N is closer to ten. On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 1:34 PM Harvey Fishman wrote: > For whatever it is worth, their CV seems to be Open Road Integrated > Media, Inc. All rights reserved. | 180 Maiden Lane | New York, NY | > 10038. I do not know if they sell internationally, but I do know that I > have many books published by them on my Kindle. > > Harvey > > From: "Elizabeth Holden" > To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." > > Bcc: fishman at panix.com > Sent: 10/15/2021 1:08:34 PM > Subject: [LMB] The Portalist > > >Harvey Fishman: > > > >> For whatever it is worth, Portalist.com seems to have the four Novels > of > >> the Jaran, which I believed was mentioned here recently, on sale for > >> $3.99. > > > >That link didn't lead me anywhere - did you mean theportalist.com? > > > >Browsing their site, I couldn't figure out where they are based (but I > >assume the U.S.) or whether they sell to Canada or not. I don't really > want > >to go to the effort of trying to buy a book and failing... Does anyone > know > >if they sell internationally? > > > >namaste, > >Elizabeth > > > >Elizabeth Holden > >-- > >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com > >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From fred.fredex at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 23:02:15 2021 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 18:02:15 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The Portalist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah, nevermind, I found it: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GH2G8BA?tag=portalistsite-20 On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 5:54 PM Fred wrote: > where are they on sale for $3.99? I connect to theportalist.com, search > for Jaran and get buttons for Amazon, et al. Amazon's is 7.99, B&N is > closer to ten. > > On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 1:34 PM Harvey Fishman wrote: > >> For whatever it is worth, their CV seems to be Open Road Integrated >> Media, Inc. All rights reserved. | 180 Maiden Lane | New York, NY | >> 10038. I do not know if they sell internationally, but I do know that I >> have many books published by them on my Kindle. >> >> Harvey >> >> From: "Elizabeth Holden" >> To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." >> >> Bcc: fishman at panix.com >> Sent: 10/15/2021 1:08:34 PM >> Subject: [LMB] The Portalist >> >> >Harvey Fishman: >> > >> >> For whatever it is worth, Portalist.com seems to have the four Novels >> of >> >> the Jaran, which I believed was mentioned here recently, on sale for >> >> $3.99. >> > >> >That link didn't lead me anywhere - did you mean theportalist.com? >> > >> >Browsing their site, I couldn't figure out where they are based (but I >> >assume the U.S.) or whether they sell to Canada or not. I don't really >> want >> >to go to the effort of trying to buy a book and failing... Does anyone >> know >> >if they sell internationally? >> > >> >namaste, >> >Elizabeth >> > >> >Elizabeth Holden >> >-- >> >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >> >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> >> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> > From domelouann at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 23:08:44 2021 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 17:08:44 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: <1702239170.1747821.1634318974653@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1702239170.1747821.1634318974653@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 12:29 PM Jane Hotchkiss via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > -All- of my female cousins and -all- of my former female bosses color(ed) > their hair. I never have and have zero intention of doing so > My very, very intense red hair has gradually been fading as I get into my fifties. The gray is coming in pretty evenly, leaving me at this point with a sort of strawberry blonde with silver highlights. I'm pretty happy with it. Once it turns all the way gray, I'm thinking of going into colors not seen in nature for human hair. Starting with royal blue. From wetair at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 23:16:24 2021 From: wetair at gmail.com (Ruchira Mathur) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 18:16:24 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: <1702239170.1747821.1634318974653@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: After all this hair color talk I'm now tempted by pale pink highlights. On Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 6:09 PM Louann Miller wrote: > On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 12:29 PM Jane Hotchkiss via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > -All- of my female cousins and -all- of my former female bosses > color(ed) > > their hair. I never have and have zero intention of doing so > > > > My very, very intense red hair has gradually been fading as I get into my > fifties. The gray is coming in pretty evenly, leaving me at this point with > a sort of strawberry blonde with silver highlights. I'm pretty happy with > it. Once it turns all the way gray, I'm thinking of going into colors not > seen in nature for human hair. Starting with royal blue. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wetair at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 00:40:51 2021 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 18:40:51 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd like to wish William's beard a happy birthday. On Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 12:28 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > On Thu, 14 Oct 2021 20:31:16 +0000, Pat Mathews > wrote: > > >My hair is - was - that dark brown without a trace of red, which often > goes with blue-gray-aqua eyes. It silvered up so nicely I have never seen > any reason to change the color in the least, though for a long time the > color has been pewter gray. > > Mine is similar. > > I always thought of my self as dark-haired, until I went to work in > California for the DoJ. They have to fill in the details for you, to > get your access pass, and it said: "Hair: gray". > > And I thought, "Well, fuck." It had sort of crept up on me. :) > -- > Anger makes dull men witty, but it keeps them poor. - Francis Bacon > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From jelbelser at comcast.net Sat Oct 16 01:03:55 2021 From: jelbelser at comcast.net (Jelbelser) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 19:03:55 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: <1702239170.1747821.1634318974653@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1702239170.1747821.1634318974653@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I was born with perfectly auburn hair, of which I was very vain. Never tempted to color it. In my 50s the red went away, leaving me with medium brown hair with red highlights. And now I?m light grey at the temples, a la bride of Frankenstein. Keeping up with coloring so roots don?t show feels absolutely too tedious, so it will be whatever it will be. When I was a few months old, my maternal grandmother was wheeling me around in a pram, informing all and sundry that I had red hair because my father was German, which was a high-status thing back then in East European Jewish circles. Which is odd, since Grandfather came from Ukraine and was strawberry blond. Janet in TN From kawyle at att.net Sat Oct 16 01:08:12 2021 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 00:08:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: <1702239170.1747821.1634318974653@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <864364587.2615026.1634342892127@mail.yahoo.com> I had always liked the idea of having auburn hair, so when my brown hair started going darker and duller as the first step toward gray, I went for it and got auburn lowlights. I kept that up until at some point I realized that my natural color was now a mix of brown and silver, blending into a sort of bronze. I found that delightful. I can see how I'll look when I'm completely gray if I stand directly under a strong light -- all the silver leaps out and says, "Look at me!" Karen A. Wyle On Friday, October 15, 2021, 08:05:10 PM EDT, Jelbelser wrote: I was born with perfectly auburn hair, of which I was very vain. Never tempted to color it. In my 50s the red went away, leaving me with medium brown hair with red highlights. And now I?m light grey at the temples, a la bride of Frankenstein. Keeping up with coloring so roots don?t show feels absolutely too tedious, so it will be whatever it will be. When I was a few months old, my maternal grandmother was wheeling me around in a pram, informing all and sundry that I had red hair because my father was German, which was a high-status thing back then in East European Jewish circles. Which is odd, since Grandfather came from Ukraine and was strawberry blond. Janet in TN -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From brashley46 at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 03:44:28 2021 From: brashley46 at gmail.com (B. Ross Ashley) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 22:44:28 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Oct 2021 15:37:49 -0400, Matthew George wrote: > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 5:28 AM WalterStuartBushell wrote: >> Has anyone considered the possibility of God[1 being transgendered? > > *Invisible Sun* has a female sea goddess 'transitioning' to a male wind > god. But that's an RPG, not a real religion. > The vast majority of real religions would consider that to be blasphemous > on multiple, simultaneous levels. No unanimity, though. There is always the cse of Loki. Hardly a hero god, but still, a god. Who became female at some point and became the mother of Odin's eight-legged horse Sleipnir. Sent from Mailspring (https://link.getmailspring.com/link/A7852701-4042-4A7F-A5FC-3D6D781A0797 at getmailspring.com/1?redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fgetmailspring.com%2F&recipient=bG9pcy1idWpvbGRAbGlzdHMuaGVyYWxkLmNvLnVr), the best free email app for work From alzurite at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 04:01:35 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 23:01:35 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The October Tea Party... Message-ID: Since Kenton asked: I was planning to have the October Tea Party on Saturday Oct. 16 but things are a little hectic for me right now. Options: (1) Someone else with Zoom capabilities could handle it this time (2) We could move it to another day next week, or the next weekend (3) Skip it for a month What say you? namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From saffronrose at me.com Sat Oct 16 06:55:23 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 22:55:23 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My scalp psoriasis stopped responding to Taclonex, a lotion which is difficult to wash out. I?m taking Otezla for it, at half clinical strength, which spares ne from the all-day nausea the full dose gave me. As it affects my immune system?psoriasis is an auto-immune disease?I qualified for a third dose of vaccine. If hair color would put paid to that, I?d go for it. Would you believe I have plaque in my right ear? Gah! A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala > On Oct 14, 2021, at 7:04 PM, B Van Look wrote: > > ?On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:31 PM Pat Mathews wrote: > >> But I have also seen brunettes whose gray hairs have a yellowish tinge in >> a state of nature, and understand completely why they would like to color >> it. >> > > I've managed to avoid that, thank goodness. Originally, I wanted to be a > redhead for fun, but it's for an entirely different reason these days. > The first time I colored my hair with Miss Clairol, I discovered my scalp > eczema went away. Didn't get that effect from other brands. So I keep > coloring my hair with MC. > > It appears, after experimenting with letting my hair color go natural for > 18months, to be causation, not correlation. I don't know what happens on my > scalp during the coloring process, I just know something happens and I like > what happens. > > BJ > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to saffronrose at me.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From kathleen.morrison at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 10:10:25 2021 From: kathleen.morrison at gmail.com (Kathleen Morrison) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 05:10:25 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The October Tea Party... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The next weekend will be fine. Kathleen(laptop) On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 11:01 PM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Since Kenton asked: I was planning to have the October Tea Party on > Saturday Oct. 16 but things are a little hectic for me right now. Options: > > (1) Someone else with Zoom capabilities could handle it this time > (2) We could move it to another day next week, or the next weekend > (3) Skip it for a month > > What say you? > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kathleen.morrison at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 16 10:33:02 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 09:33:02 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Vaccine refusers Message-ID: Based on US research, but examining the situation in other countries too, so I hope this can be passed as non-political because there's a lot of good information here. Yes, the vaccine reluctant are a danger to us all, but stereotyping and mocking is not a solution. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/15/opinion/covid-vaccines-unvaccinated.html?fbclid=IwAR3oC4kM6o3QEOoVRBkRkxnUTDdmWz_lK19DBllRGGSbE_5i3xSnU8dn9_4 Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com/) Secure Email. From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 16 10:35:13 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 09:35:13 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Monday, October 11th, 2021 at 22:59, Matthew George wrote: > > I've mentioned before Spider Robinson's essay on editors, found in "User > > Friendly", so I won't bring it up in any detail. I would note that Ayn > > Rand actually had similar issues, as she absolutely hated the ways > > producers and editors would insist on altering everything she submitted, so > > when she went independent she refused to use the services of an editor. > > Much to her works' detriment. > I used to call this "Heinlein's syndrome" till I encountered the works of L Ron Hubbard, and found how much worse it could get when the author actually owned the publishing house. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 16 10:38:04 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 09:38:04 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Saturday, October 16th, 2021 at 04:44, B. Ross Ashley wrote: > There is always the case of Loki. Hardly a hero god, but still, a god. Who became female at some point and became the mother of Odin's eight-legged horse Sleipnir. Note also that Loki's cross-dressing in the story of "Thor's Wedding" was no small thing in that culture, where transvestism was grounds for divorce. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 16 10:41:57 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 09:41:57 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Pastimes In-Reply-To: <33i8mg59k8hprgqcu4vjv5qg13kucneij2@4ax.com> References: <33i8mg59k8hprgqcu4vjv5qg13kucneij2@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Monday, October 11th, 2021 at 19:33, Marc Wilson wrote: > > The shortest meaningful length is the Planck length. > With grate effort Molesworth restrane himself from obvious pun. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 16 10:43:26 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 09:43:26 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cloning? In-Reply-To: References: <524417BC-92A4-40DA-8C19-A78D8619446E@hamilton.edu> <937096447.2620182.1634138754733@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wednesday, October 13th, 2021 at 21:39, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Didn?t Miles have a nightmare about that? > > William A Wenrich > Yes, and Mark also had paranoid fears that that was why the family were keeping him around. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 16 10:48:28 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 09:48:28 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thursday, October 14th, 2021 at 05:42, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Gwynne: I agree that desperate doctors are trying whatever they think > > could make a difference. But I wonder how long it'll be before a company > > with some low-selling product; any kind of human or animal medication, > > vitamin compound, etc; realises that they can make massive profits by > > setting up a few fake profiles online and touting the amazing powers of > > this product - of course the government is hiding it from you... etc. > For what it's worth, Merck, who own the patents for ivermectin, have advised against using it and said it's untested and unproved. Of course a conspiracy fan would say they're just covering their tracks. Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From egern at protonmail.com Sat Oct 16 10:51:14 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 09:51:14 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Thursday, October 14th, 2021 at 5:42 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > Gwynne: I agree that desperate doctors are trying whatever they think > could make a difference Exactly. I became aware of this because a health worker I know moved to Africa and we talked about this. I understand it as the nations who used Ivermerctin against the river blindness and parasites, discovered that they (these nations) also did better in people surviving Covid. See for instance here: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.26.21254377v1 Also in Europe, doctors in hospitals tried various already known medications against Covid, with more or less success - for instance medication against malaria. My point was that it is not just 'crazy people' who are using or were using Ivermectin and other not proven medications. I haven't followed in detail the trials with Ivermerctin - and they are, I think still going on - just know that it is not in the interest of 'Big Pharma' to have a cheap and ready medication, when they are working around the clock finding something themselves. Also there is a tendency for cultural snottiness, where many in the Western countries do not believe we can learn anything from Africa or Asia. >. But I wonder how long it'll be before a company > > with some low-selling product; any kind of human or animal medication, > > vitamin compound, etc; realises that they can make massive profits by > > setting up a few fake profiles online and touting the amazing powers of > > this product - of course the government is hiding it from you... etc. That is the other side of the problem: what private people do as opposed to hospitals. I have Ivermectin in my house on the advice of my health worker friend, with very specific instructions, not least because I cannot get vaccinated because of allergy. It may or may not work should I get infected, but correctly used it will not harm me. (Although the problem with vaccination *might* be on the way to a solution in which case - *hurray!!*) I guess my main point from the start of this debate really was that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar as the English say, and good sober debates is a much better solution than jeers if you actually want to solve problems :-) T From lmb at matija.com Sat Oct 16 10:51:49 2021 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 10:51:49 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Lagrange points Message-ID: <6e36a64b-64f8-a0a9-927f-12c788cb7a1a@matija.com> Some time ago we were discussing orbits (with and without regards to Soletta). Scott Manley just published a video on Langrange points which explains it in the clearest way I've see so far, including on things like why some are more stable than others. I know the graphics he uses will help me visualize them from now on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PHvDj4TDfM From egern at protonmail.com Sat Oct 16 10:53:07 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 09:53:07 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT Gwynne Message-ID: <5JZX0_B3p-kdBRglco8xRPTWPyiUSx3Za1nsXaCfgM74QAbB2pp8I9Qm1U5Vo2shcaFzY64FV3FR3QR3j8xItYskJ-_iXJTN5tFbjbbobh0=@protonmail.com> Good to see you back :-) T Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Wednesday, October 13th, 2021 at 10:35 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > I don't know if this has already been posted. I stumbled across this yesterday. > > Scrolling down the list there's a lot I agree with, a lot I haven't heard of, and > > quite a few that I don't think are the book I'd choose as the best example > > from that author. > > Yes, Lois is there, of course. They chose A Civil Campaign. I don't think that's the > > book I'd call the most influential of her books. > > https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/?fbclid=IwAR2lLmus6EJqlHRp-n-G5wh33IGXdHZa5Bv_Qii55jc796MML4gq1Y92cos > > [https://s2982.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/space-suit-field-of-flowers.jpg.optimal.jpg]https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/?fbclid=IwAR2lLmus6EJqlHRp-n-G5wh33IGXdHZa5Bv_Qii55jc796MML4gq1Y92cos > > The Most Influential Sci-Fi Books Of All Timehttps://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/?fbclid=IwAR2lLmus6EJqlHRp-n-G5wh33IGXdHZa5Bv_Qii55jc796MML4gq1Y92cos > > The most influential sci-fi books of all time examine humanity's longest-held hopes and deepest, most visceral fears. > > bookriot.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to egern at protonmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From Peterhews at protonmail.com Sat Oct 16 10:57:12 2021 From: Peterhews at protonmail.com (Peter Hews) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 09:57:12 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Lagrange points In-Reply-To: <6e36a64b-64f8-a0a9-927f-12c788cb7a1a@matija.com> References: <6e36a64b-64f8-a0a9-927f-12c788cb7a1a@matija.com> Message-ID: On Saturday, October 16th, 2021 at 11:51, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > Some time ago we were discussing orbits (with and without regards to > > Soletta). > > Scott Manley just published a video on Langrange points which explains > > it in the clearest way I've see so far, including on things like why > > some are more stable than others. I know the graphics he uses will help > > me visualize them from now on. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PHvDj4TDfM > We know a song about that, don't we, boys and girls? "Home, home on Lagrange, Where the space debris always collects. We possess so it seems two of man's greatest dreams, Solar power and zero-G sex." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_on_Lagrange_(The_L5_Song) Peter Hews Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. From baur at chello.at Sat Oct 16 11:11:28 2021 From: baur at chello.at (baur baur) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 12:11:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Lagrange points In-Reply-To: References: <6e36a64b-64f8-a0a9-927f-12c788cb7a1a@matija.com> Message-ID: <1913200432.723088.1634379088261@webmail.mymagenta.at> full lyrics Oh, give me a locus where the gravitons focus Where the three-body problem is solved, Where the microwaves play down at three degrees K, And the cold virus never evolved. (chorus) We eat algea pie, our vacuum is high, Our ball bearings are perfectly round. Our horizon is curved, our warheads are MIRVed, And a kilogram weighs half a pound. (chorus) If we run out of space for our burgeoning race No more Lebensraum left for the Mensch When we're ready to start, we can take Mars apart, If we just find a big enough wrench. (chorus) I'm sick of this place, it's just McDonald's in space, And living up here is a bore. Tell the shiggies, "Don't cry," they can kiss me goodbye 'Cause I'm moving next week to L4! (chorus) CHORUS: Home, home on LaGrange, Where the space debris always collects, We possess, so it seems, two of Man's greatest dreams: Solar power and zero-gee sex. servus markus > Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold hat am 16.10.2021 11:57 geschrieben: > > > On Saturday, October 16th, 2021 at 11:51, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > > Some time ago we were discussing orbits (with and without regards to > > > > Soletta). > > > > Scott Manley just published a video on Langrange points which explains > > > > it in the clearest way I've see so far, including on things like why > > > > some are more stable than others. I know the graphics he uses will help > > > > me visualize them from now on. > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PHvDj4TDfM > > > We know a song about that, don't we, boys and girls? > > "Home, home on Lagrange, > Where the space debris always collects. > We possess so it seems two of man's greatest dreams, > Solar power and zero-G sex." > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_on_Lagrange_(The_L5_Song) > > Peter Hews > > Oh better far to live and die under the brave black flag I fly, > Than play a sanctimonious part with a pirate head and a pirate heart. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From egern at protonmail.com Sat Oct 16 11:19:48 2021 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 10:19:48 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: References: <3b8ee42d-5675-3333-6678-c216a922a758@matija.com> <5bb71c97-d4c8-469e-d62e-432a128c5d29@matija.com> Message-ID: Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, October 12th, 2021 at 3:14 AM, Raymond Collins wrote: > Last Wednesday I was informed of a acquaintance I knew had died from Covid. > > She was a mother of five and was a believer that Covid19 was a conspiracy > > to plant a chip through a fake vaccine. Sadly for her kids she was wrong. > > I got into an argument with her last Thanksgiving over Covid. She rolled > > her eyes when I said I was going to vaccinated as soon as possible. Which > > why I knew her philosophy on Covid. It's a weird, I feel vindicated and > > guilty at the same time. I think I can understand your feelings here - but what a high price for her to pay for falling for fake news.. What is really odd, though, is that that kind of thing doesn't seem to convince others. T From proto at panix.com Sat Oct 16 12:21:12 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 07:21:12 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: <864364587.2615026.1634342892127@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1702239170.1747821.1634318974653@mail.yahoo.com> <864364587.2615026.1634342892127@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <72743A92-32AD-46A4-AC77-62D6EFFC83AE@panix.com> > On Oct 15, 2021, at 8:08 PM, Karen A. Wyle wrote: > > When I was a few months old, my maternal grandmother was wheeling me around in a pram, informing all and sundry that I had red hair because my father was German, which was a high-status thing back then in East European Jewish circles. Which is odd, since Grandfather came from Ukraine and was strawberry blond. > > Janet in TN People trying to move up in status is never odd. ? ?That which doesn?t make us stronger kills us.? From proto at panix.com Sat Oct 16 12:59:58 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 07:59:58 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 16, 2021, at 5:35 AM, Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > I used to call this "Heinlein's syndrome" till I encountered the works of L Ron Hubbard, and found how much worse it could get when the author actually owned the publishing house. > > Peter Hews His fiction was among the least of his crimes against humanity. For his purposes the worse the fiction the better; for the same reason as people run the Nigerian Prince Scam, if you get a response the probability of a bite is much higher than than that of the general population, because you have eliminated people with any common sense. Then there are the alleged psychics who advertise that they can reunite you with your ex even if they are dead. Which brings to mind the question, ?How many bullets would it take to reunite the Beatles??. ? It is wrong, always, everywhere, and for everyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.? ?W. K. Clifford (1845?1879), ?The Ethics? My take is belief should be proportional to the evidence. From proto at panix.com Sat Oct 16 13:48:53 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 08:48:53 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Lagrange points In-Reply-To: References: <6e36a64b-64f8-a0a9-927f-12c788cb7a1a@matija.com> Message-ID: <0A845155-F53A-4C51-B0EE-5F2AAB6CED9E@panix.com> Paleo Gammer from Reddit The L5 National Anthem Oh give me a locus, where the gravitons focus, And the Three-Body-Problem is solved... Where the microwaves play, down at 3 degrees K, And the cold virus never evolved... --- chorus You won't need no oil, nor a tokomak coil, Solar stations provide Earth with juice... Power beams are sublime, so no one will mind, When we cook the occasional goose --- chorus I'm sick of this place, it's just McDonalds in space, And living up here is a bore... Tell the girls not to cry, they can kiss me goodbye, Cause I'm moving next week to L4... --- chorus > On Oct 16, 2021, at 5:57 AM, Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > We know a song about that, don't we, boys and girls? > > "Home, home on Lagrange, > Where the space debris always collects. > We possess so it seems two of man's greatest dreams, > Solar power and zero-G sex." > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_on_Lagrange_(The_L5_Song) > > Peter Hews ? Sig of no sig. From proto at panix.com Sat Oct 16 13:54:32 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 08:54:32 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: References: <3b8ee42d-5675-3333-6678-c216a922a758@matija.com> <5bb71c97-d4c8-469e-d62e-432a128c5d29@matija.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 16, 2021, at 6:19 AM, tidsel via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > I think I can understand your feelings here - but what a high price for her to pay for falling for fake news.. > What is really odd, though, is that that kind of thing doesn't seem to convince others. > T People who fall for scams and the more obvious the scam the worse they fall, find it hard to give up and admit they were wrong. In many cases they?d rather die. ? In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over." --tweet by British columnist, Dan Hodges, June 15, 2015? From kawyle at att.net Sat Oct 16 14:37:48 2021 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 13:37:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: References: <3b8ee42d-5675-3333-6678-c216a922a758@matija.com> <5bb71c97-d4c8-469e-d62e-432a128c5d29@matija.com> Message-ID: <580005437.2730670.1634391468489@mail.yahoo.com> The radio show "Hidden Brain" had an episode recently about cognitive dissonance, which discussed how invested people become in their beliefs in various scams. Karen A. Wyle On Saturday, October 16, 2021, 08:54:42 AM EDT, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > On Oct 16, 2021, at 6:19 AM, tidsel via Lois-Bujold wrote: People who fall for scams and the more obvious the scam the worse they fall, find it hard to give up and admit they were wrong. In many cases they?d rather die. ? From proto at panix.com Sat Oct 16 16:08:58 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 11:08:58 -0400 Subject: [LMB] =?utf-8?q?OT=3A_16/10/2021_NYTimes=2Ecom=3A_NASA=E2=80=99s?= =?utf-8?q?_Lucy_Launches_on_12-Year_Mission_to_Jupiter=E2=80=99s_Trojan_A?= =?utf-8?q?steroids?= Message-ID: From The New York Times: NASA?s Lucy Launches on 12-Year Mission to Jupiter?s Trojan Asteroids The elaborate journey of the robotic spacecraft will offer close encounters with some of the solar system?s least understood objects. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/16/science/nasa-lucy-launch.html?smid=em-share ? ?That which doesn?t make us stronger kills us.? From focsle1928 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 16 17:37:24 2021 From: focsle1928 at yahoo.com (Jane Hotchkiss) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 16:37:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] The October Tea Party In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <620490313.1888823.1634402244762@mail.yahoo.com> Our kind Zoom hostess Elizabeth Holden wrote:(1) Someone else with Zoom capabilities could handle it this time(2) We could move it to another day next week, or the next weekend (3) Skip it for a month What say you? JH: I say whatever works for whichever host or hostess is fine with me. I don't have the capacity to host. Jane Hotchkiss ? From margdean56 at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 18:08:04 2021 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 11:08:04 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 16, 2021 at 3:38 AM Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > On Saturday, October 16th, 2021 at 04:44, B. Ross Ashley < > brashley46 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > There is always the case of Loki. Hardly a hero god, but still, a god. > Who became female at some point and became the mother of Odin's > eight-legged horse Sleipnir. > > Note also that Loki's cross-dressing in the story of "Thor's Wedding" was > no small thing in that culture, where transvestism was grounds for divorce. > ISTR that in that story, Loki convinces THOR to cross-dress / pose as Freia, in order to get his hammer back and take out the giants responsible. --Margaret Dean From margdean56 at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 18:24:33 2021 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 11:24:33 -0600 Subject: [LMB] The October Tea Party... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Next weekend would be fine for me, too. --Margaret Dean On Sat, Oct 16, 2021 at 3:10 AM Kathleen Morrison < kathleen.morrison at gmail.com> wrote: > The next weekend will be fine. > Kathleen(laptop) > > > On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 11:01 PM Elizabeth Holden > wrote: > > > Since Kenton asked: I was planning to have the October Tea Party on > > Saturday Oct. 16 but things are a little hectic for me right now. > Options: > > > > (1) Someone else with Zoom capabilities could handle it this time > > (2) We could move it to another day next week, or the next weekend > > (3) Skip it for a month > > > > What say you? > > > > namaste, > > Elizabeth > > > > Elizabeth Holden > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kathleen.morrison at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to margdean56 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From domelouann at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 18:58:19 2021 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 12:58:19 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: <580005437.2730670.1634391468489@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3b8ee42d-5675-3333-6678-c216a922a758@matija.com> <5bb71c97-d4c8-469e-d62e-432a128c5d29@matija.com> <580005437.2730670.1634391468489@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 16, 2021 at 8:38 AM Karen A. Wyle wrote: > The radio show "Hidden Brain" had an episode recently about cognitive > dissonance, which discussed how invested people become in their beliefs in > various scams. > I have always been a fan of "people doing weird things for weird reasons" nonfiction books. For sheer historical breadth and charmingly archaic language, nothing can match "extraordinary popular delusion and the madness of crowds" by Charles MacKay, 1841. But I've also read the sociology case study "When Prophecy Fails" where the term cognitive dissonance was first coined. And of course, Carl Sagan's book "The Demon Haunted World." IMO, everyone needs to know about cognitive dissonance. Not especially because people believe X which I think is laughably wrong. People need to know about it because at some point or another, ALL of us are going to get something laughably wrong. Therefore we all need to know that This Is A Thing Humans Do, so that we can be aware of the risk of either doing so ourselves or of having people around us do it. Louann From domelouann at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 19:06:28 2021 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 13:06:28 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: References: <3b8ee42d-5675-3333-6678-c216a922a758@matija.com> <5bb71c97-d4c8-469e-d62e-432a128c5d29@matija.com> <580005437.2730670.1634391468489@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Footnote: NPR Hidden Brain "When You Need It To Be True," October 4 2021. From howard at brazee.net Sat Oct 16 19:48:53 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 12:48:53 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07889B5D-6F0D-4075-88DC-4EDAB16012F0@brazee.net> > On Oct 16, 2021, at 11:08 AM, Margaret Dean wrote: > > ISTR that in that story, Loki convinces THOR to cross-dress / pose as > Freia, in order to get his hammer back and take out the giants responsible. What works for Bugs Bunny should work for Thor. From matt.msg at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 20:37:22 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 15:37:22 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Change blindness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 10:44 PM B. Ross Ashley wrote: > No unanimity, though. There is always the cse of Loki. Hardly a hero god, > but still, a god. Who became female at some point and became the mother of > Odin's eight-legged horse Sleipnir. > But Loki's not a transsexual. He's just a shapeshifter who didn't think fully about the possible consequences of one of his pranks and got mode-locked. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 20:52:24 2021 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 15:52:24 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: References: <3b8ee42d-5675-3333-6678-c216a922a758@matija.com> <5bb71c97-d4c8-469e-d62e-432a128c5d29@matija.com> <580005437.2730670.1634391468489@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It is easier to see the speck in another's eye than the boulder in one's own. Matt G. From quietann at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 23:58:11 2021 From: quietann at gmail.com (quietann) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 18:58:11 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: <1702239170.1747821.1634318974653@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 6:09 PM Louann Miller wrote: > On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 12:29 PM Jane Hotchkiss via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > My very, very intense red hair has gradually been fading as I get into my > fifties. The gray is coming in pretty evenly, leaving me at this point with > a sort of strawberry blonde with silver highlights. I'm pretty happy with > it. Once it turns all the way gray, I'm thinking of going into colors not > seen in nature for human hair. Starting with royal blue. > Mine is similar, and I've even been asked who "does" my hair. Mother Nature, thankyouverymuch. I've been watching a big horse show this week - Morgan Grand Nationals. The horse show world is conservative... but the carriage judge, Muffy Seaton, who is in her 50s, has light blond or gray hair with very obvious spearmint green highlights on one side in the front. But Muffy, is, well, Muffy. She's from South Carolina, and I'm sure has a very polite, withering expression to use should anyone question her hair color choice. Ann > From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Sun Oct 17 00:08:23 2021 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 23:08:23 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixie - Jerrie Adkins Message-ID: <5a95fa6b-c058-4d9d-46a1-df522e9bd5c9@mindspring.com> Dear Tej, ? Thank you for the lovely party.? It was so delightful to see the Jewels performing again!? [Let's hope Ivan Xav's face doesn't freeze like that.? However adorable, grimace is *not* the look one wishes for one's spouse in perpetuity.]? Everyone had an excellent time, so clever of you to bring in the Quaddie musicians to distract the Jewels with challenging new choreography.? I do hope they will enjoy their tour of Quaddiespace.? [Ivan Xav's gratified relief will pass unmentioned.? ;)] ? Jerrie From fishman at panix.com Sun Oct 17 00:12:34 2021 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 23:12:34 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: <1702239170.1747821.1634318974653@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "quietann" To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 10/16/2021 6:58:11 PM Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Hair color >On Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 6:09 PM Louann Miller wrote: > >I've been watching a big horse show this week - Morgan Grand Nationals. The >horse show world is conservative... but the carriage judge, Muffy Seaton, >who is in her 50s, has light blond or gray hair with very obvious spearmint >green highlights on one side in the front. But Muffy, is, well, Muffy. >She's from South Carolina, and I'm sure has a very polite, withering >expression to use should anyone question her hair color choice. > >Ann Spearmint, huh? I wonder what would happen if someone were to refer to them as peppermint? Harvey > From fred.fredex at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 00:25:31 2021 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 19:25:31 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The October Tea Party... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'll be in another zoom conference all day Saturday 10/23. but I don't think I am essential to the tea party! (but I do like to attend when I can.) On Sat, Oct 16, 2021 at 1:24 PM Margaret Dean wrote: > Next weekend would be fine for me, too. > > > --Margaret Dean > > > > On Sat, Oct 16, 2021 at 3:10 AM Kathleen Morrison < > kathleen.morrison at gmail.com> wrote: > > > The next weekend will be fine. > > Kathleen(laptop) > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 11:01 PM Elizabeth Holden > > wrote: > > > > > Since Kenton asked: I was planning to have the October Tea Party on > > > Saturday Oct. 16 but things are a little hectic for me right now. > > Options: > > > > > > (1) Someone else with Zoom capabilities could handle it this time > > > (2) We could move it to another day next week, or the next weekend > > > (3) Skip it for a month > > > > > > What say you? > > > > > > namaste, > > > Elizabeth > > > > > > Elizabeth Holden > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kathleen.morrison at gmail.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to margdean56 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 03:05:38 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 22:05:38 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: <1702239170.1747821.1634318974653@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 6:09 PM Louann Miller wrote: > On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 12:29 PM Jane Hotchkiss via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > -All- of my female cousins and -all- of my former female bosses > color(ed) > > their hair. I never have and have zero intention of doing so > > > ...Once it turns all the way gray, I'm thinking of going into colors not > seen in nature for human hair. Starting with royal blue. > -- > Startling colors + touching up the roots: What if you touch up the root with a different vivid color? Can you end up with rainbow streaked hair? Sylvia From proto at panix.com Sun Oct 17 11:26:50 2021 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 06:26:50 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: <1702239170.1747821.1634318974653@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 16, 2021, at 6:58 PM, quietann wrote: > > > I've been watching a big horse show this week - Morgan Grand Nationals. The > horse show world is conservative... but the carriage judge, Muffy Seaton, > who is in her 50s, has light blond or gray hair with very obvious spearmint > green highlights on one side in the front. But Muffy, is, well, Muffy. > She's from South Carolina, and I'm sure has a very polite, withering > expression to use should anyone question her hair color choice. > > Ann ?Bless your little heart.?? ? As the historical Buddha said, ?Hatred does not stop by hatred at any time; hatred stops only by love. this is an ancient rule.? about 2770 BP (BP means either Before Present or Before Physics that is before nuclear testing made it necessary to adjust carbon 14 dating. From listmail at gordonj.net Sun Oct 17 12:03:51 2021 From: listmail at gordonj.net (Gordon Jackson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 12:03:51 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: The Apollo Murders Message-ID: <010101d7c346$ad35a4e0$07a0eea0$@gordonj.net> Just finished "The Apollo Murders" by Chris Hadfield. Good space based thriller, lent more than a touch of authenticity by the Author's background. Set in the context of a fictional Apollo 18 mission. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Oct 17 12:20:12 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 11:20:12 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Marc Wilson I've been dark-haired since my teens, but as a kid I was *platinum* blond. And skinny: when we played "Man from Uncle", I was Ilya. If I didn't remember being that kid, I'd be hard to convince that the photos were of me. Gwynne: I was blonde as a child, but over time it went darker and darker until it was boring brown. But according to my skin and my horoscope, I'm supposed to have red hair, so I feel that I'm just correcting an error. From alzurite at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 13:59:33 2021 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 08:59:33 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The October Tea Party... Message-ID: Fred said: > I'll be in another zoom conference all day Saturday 10/23. but I don't > think I am essential to the tea party! (but I do like to attend when I can.) How do people feel about Sunday the 24th, if I make it later in the day to accommodate those who attend church? namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From kathleen.morrison at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 14:02:34 2021 From: kathleen.morrison at gmail.com (Kathleen Morrison) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 09:02:34 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The October Tea Party... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This sounds excellent and convenient as well. Kathleen(laptop) On Sun, Oct 17, 2021 at 8:59 AM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Fred said: > > > I'll be in another zoom conference all day Saturday 10/23. but I don't > > think I am essential to the tea party! (but I do like to attend when I > can.) > > How do people feel about Sunday the 24th, if I make it later in the day to > accommodate those who attend church? > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kathleen.morrison at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From domelouann at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 14:23:46 2021 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 08:23:46 -0500 Subject: [LMB] The October Tea Party... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am fine with that. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Oct 17 14:33:00 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 13:33:00 +0000 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Peter Hews On Thursday, October 14th, 2021 at 05:42, Gwynne Powell wrote: > Gwynne: I agree that desperate doctors are trying whatever they think > could make a difference. But I wonder how long it'll be before a company > with some low-selling product; any kind of human or animal medication, > vitamin compound, etc; realises that they can make massive profits by > setting up a few fake profiles online and touting the amazing powers of > this product - of course the government is hiding it from you... etc. > For what it's worth, Merck, who own the patents for ivermectin, have advised against using it and said it's untested and unproved. Of course a conspiracy fan would say they're just covering their tracks. Peter Hews Gwynne: I can't understand why, if you believe someone is putting microchips in vaccine, you don't realise that they could also put it in cow wormer. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Oct 17 14:41:43 2021 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 13:41:43 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: WalterStuartBushell > On Oct 16, 2021, at 6:19 AM, tidsel via Lois-Bujold wrote: > I think I can understand your feelings here - but what a high price for her to pay for falling for fake news.. > What is really odd, though, is that that kind of thing doesn't seem to convince others. > T People who fall for scams and the more obvious the scam the worse they fall, find it hard to give up and admit they were wrong. In many cases they?d rather die. Gwynne: I've seen a great deal of information, and sad examples, of people who will cling so tightly to a ridiculous and often damaging belief, no matter what. And I know that simple proof and logic aren't enough. But what is? What does it take to get through? That's not a flippant question. We really need to figure out how to deal with the worrying huge numbers of people who are deluded almost to the point of mental disturbance. From howard at brazee.net Sun Oct 17 14:42:03 2021 From: howard at brazee.net (brazee) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 07:42:03 -0600 Subject: [LMB] AKICOT:L Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <68D10183-8366-4AD5-831F-CC733065562B@brazee.net> > On Oct 17, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Gwynne: I can't understand why, if you believe someone is putting microchips > in vaccine, you don't realise that they could also put it in cow wormer. Actually getting sick changes people?s priorities. From jpolowin at hotmail.com Sun Oct 17 16:40:38 2021 From: jpolowin at hotmail.com (Joel Polowin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 15:40:38 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sylvia McIvers wrote: > Startling colors + touching up the roots: > What if you touch up the root with a different vivid color? > > Can you end up with? rainbow streaked hair? There was the character Catalina from the TV show _Space Cases_, played by Jewel Staite (better known for playing Kaylee in _Firefly_). Though it doesn't look like that's how the hair effect was created. https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=space+cases+Catalina Joel From margdean56 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 16:54:56 2021 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 09:54:56 -0600 Subject: [LMB] The October Tea Party... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I could do that. N>B.: "After church" for me would be no earlier than 1 PM Mountain Time, which IIRC would be 3 PM for Elizabeth. --Margaret Dean On Sun, Oct 17, 2021 at 7:24 AM Louann Miller wrote: > I am fine with that. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to margdean56 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sun Oct 17 19:24:53 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 14:24:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] The October Tea Party... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sunday October 24 at 3 p.m. sounds good. -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From becca7108 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:33:43 2021 From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 14:33:43 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The October Tea Party... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm good for that time too! On Sun, Oct 17, 2021 at 2:25 PM wrote: > Sunday October 24 at 3 p.m. sounds good. > > -- > Alayne McGregor > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > > What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We > need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the > institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate > and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to becca7108 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sun Oct 17 22:30:54 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 17:30:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: WalterStuartBushell > People who fall for scams and the more obvious the scam the worse they fall, find it hard > to give up and admit they were wrong. In many cases they?d rather die. On Sun, 17 Oct 2021, Gwynne Powell wrote: > Gwynne: I've seen a great deal of information, and sad examples, of people who will > cling so tightly to a ridiculous and often damaging belief, no matter what. And I know > that simple proof and logic aren't enough. But what is? What does it take to get through? > That's not a flippant question. We really need to figure out how to deal with the > worrying huge numbers of people who are deluded almost to the point of mental > disturbance. I very rarely read political memoirs (see **) but I've actually been enjoying Barack Obama's latest memoirs as an audiobook. (Don't worry - no US politics here.) I've just got to the point where he's running for president, and he tells of his realization that actually discussing the ins and outs & nuances of policy is not what audiences want to hear - it's a much more emotional message they're interested in. He's also advised not to answer media questions directly/completely but instead to use them as a springboard to his own talking points because that's what works. So I think that addressing fears & emotional reactions directly and with respect may be the only way of dealing with this. I heard a recent discussion on CBC about ivermectin and it suggested that pro-vax people making fun of this (which is SO tempting) just puts people's backs up. I did see an interesting story today suggesting that there are ways to avoid allergic reactions even for people who may have had bad reactions to other vaccines or their first COVID shot: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/vaccine-allergy-reactions-covid-1.6214300 I think that's hopeful. (** My previous three favourite political memoirs are all Canadian: _Memoirs of a Bird in a Gilded Cage by Judy LaMarsh, _Gentlemen, Players, and Politicians_ by Dalton Camp, and _What Have You Done for Me Lately?_ by Jeremy Akerman -- and boy, do those date me! I seriously doubt anyone on this list has read any of them...) Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sun Oct 17 22:36:20 2021 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 17:36:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: ivermectin Message-ID: Latest sign up here in Canada: There's a sign on the front door of Ritchie's feed and seed here in Ottawa: "Proof of ownership of a Horse/Livestock is currently required for the purchase of ivermectin products." https://www.reddit.com/r/ottawa/comments/q9jor7/the_madness_has_crept_north_seen_at_ritchies_feed/ Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From markgoldfield at hotmail.com Mon Oct 18 00:02:46 2021 From: markgoldfield at hotmail.com (Mark Goldfield) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 23:02:46 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ivermectin (was: Comercials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also interesting regarding Covid vaccination after an allergic reaction: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2782348?guestAccessKey=5bce44d8-672d-454c-bf71-b4b9a66cb866&utm_source=For_The_Media&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ftm_links&utm_content=tfl&utm_term=072621 https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19vaccine/93756 On Oct 17, 2021, at 5:31 PM, alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca wrote: ? From: WalterStuartBushell People who fall for scams and the more obvious the scam the worse they fall, find it hard to give up and admit they were wrong. In many cases they?d rather die. On Sun, 17 Oct 2021, Gwynne Powell wrote: Gwynne: I've seen a great deal of information, and sad examples, of people who will cling so tightly to a ridiculous and often damaging belief, no matter what. And I know that simple proof and logic aren't enough. But what is? What does it take to get through? That's not a flippant question. We really need to figure out how to deal with the worrying huge numbers of people who are deluded almost to the point of mental disturbance. I very rarely read political memoirs (see **) but I've actually been enjoying Barack Obama's latest memoirs as an audiobook. (Don't worry - no US politics here.) I've just got to the point where he's running for president, and he tells of his realization that actually discussing the ins and outs & nuances of policy is not what audiences want to hear - it's a much more emotional message they're interested in. He's also advised not to answer media questions directly/completely but instead to use them as a springboard to his own talking points because that's what works. So I think that addressing fears & emotional reactions directly and with respect may be the only way of dealing with this. I heard a recent discussion on CBC about ivermectin and it suggested that pro-vax people making fun of this (which is SO tempting) just puts people's backs up. I did see an interesting story today suggesting that there are ways to avoid allergic reactions even for people who may have had bad reactions to other vaccines or their first COVID shot: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbc.ca%2Fnews%2Fcanada%2Fhamilton%2Fvaccine-allergy-reactions-covid-1.6214300&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cf9617b2cd61e489aeda208d991b57022%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637701030739119119%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Gu3DgjbvmP7Mf%2B7EyxJXRxw%2BXoiwOTrXl8D9YAW4HW4%3D&reserved=0 I think that's hopeful. (** My previous three favourite political memoirs are all Canadian: _Memoirs of a Bird in a Gilded Cage by Judy LaMarsh, _Gentlemen, Players, and Politicians_ by Dalton Camp, and _What Have You Done for Me Lately?_ by Jeremy Akerman -- and boy, do those date me! I seriously doubt anyone on this list has read any of them...) Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to markgoldfield at hotmail.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cf9617b2cd61e489aeda208d991b57022%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637701030739119119%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=NF54ZzNKJI2y1WHp9nqLMY6xBHJvKesS8z0fYzVpEGE%3D&reserved=0 From saffronrose at me.com Mon Oct 18 00:35:10 2021 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:35:10 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color Message-ID: <5B14E762-34AF-4B03-B843-8404EAEEBBBD@me.com> ?On Oct 15, 2021, at 10:30 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > I've been dark-haired since my teens, but as a kid I was *platinum* > blond. And skinny: when we played "Man from Uncle", I was Ilya. Kate: Gibbs, what did Ducky look like when he was younger? Gibbs: [grinning] Ilya Kuryakin. Kate: Who? [apparently her parents never watched The Man From U.N.C.L.E.] In Livermore (as in the Labs) CA, there is an UNCLE credit union?I kid you not: unclecu.org A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From wawenri at msn.com Mon Oct 18 00:51:19 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 23:51:19 +0000 Subject: [LMB] The October Tea Party... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On the 24th, I will be attending La Traviata. My amazing DIL is in the chorus. William A Wenrich Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. -----Original Message----- From: Lois-Bujold On Behalf Of Elizabeth Holden Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2021 7:00 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: [LMB] The October Tea Party... Fred said: > I'll be in another zoom conference all day Saturday 10/23. but I don't > think I am essential to the tea party! (but I do like to attend when I can.) How do people feel about Sunday the 24th, if I make it later in the day to accommodate those who attend church? namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C291bdcf665cc4e32ab8f08d9916e04df%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637700723975004130%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=NMt6CiHeXMuk5ObmRuTRecFK%2BAp1hRXbKvPnXHX1nEA%3D&reserved=0 From wawenri at msn.com Mon Oct 18 00:59:05 2021 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 23:59:05 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- Polowin There was the character Catalina from the TV show _Space Cases_, played by Jewel Staite (better known for playing Kaylee in _Firefly_). Though it doesn't look like that's how the hair effect was created. =========================================== I liked Jewel Staite in Firefly, Serenity, and Stargate Atlantis. William A Wenrich Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. From fred.fredex at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 01:51:29 2021 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 20:51:29 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The October Tea Party... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, Sunday afternoon works for me (as long as I don't nap thru it ;) ) On Sun, Oct 17, 2021 at 8:59 AM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Fred said: > > > I'll be in another zoom conference all day Saturday 10/23. but I don't > > think I am essential to the tea party! (but I do like to attend when I > can.) > > How do people feel about Sunday the 24th, if I make it later in the day to > accommodate those who attend church? > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 01:57:37 2021 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 20:57:37 -0400 Subject: [LMB] TSR Chapter 5 - Production vs Credit Message-ID: Thur is on the road from the mines to his apprenticeship. He and the mule driver agree that the mines are cold and dark and awful, but what then? "I'm for the open road" says the mule driver. "You should join us, Thur, not shut yourself up in some nasty little dark shop." "It's the metal. Hundreds of men albor to get the metal, like the copper, into the hands of some fancy smith, and who gets the credit/ The artisan, that's who." === Does anyone still have the book? This is p79 of the hardback. === I meant to do a thing about artists and their suppliers & galleries and art critics and all, but... I can't help but think of all the people who righteously isolated for a year, and who gets the credit? Not the people on the road delivering the food, and the clothes, and the doodads that people impulse-purchase because they're home and bored. Not the people processing the food, getting sick at cut-rate salaries. Not the person standing at the grocer's till, breathing everyone's breath. No, they don't get the credit. They didn't isolate. Sylvia From fred.fredex at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 02:09:15 2021 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 21:09:15 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Hair color In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: sorry if this is offensive, but IMHO that show is stupid stupid stupid! Reminds me of other intellectual things like Lost In Space, or Spaceballs. Which isn't to say it may not be entertaining! (This opinion was just formed from watching the first 15 minutes of episode 1--those of you with more patience may prevail.) On Sun, Oct 17, 2021 at 7:59 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > -----Original Message----- > Polowin > > There was the character Catalina from the TV show _Space Cases_, played by > Jewel Staite (better known for playing Kaylee in _Firefly_). Though it > doesn't look like that's how the hair effect was created. > =========================================== > I liked Jewel Staite in Firefly, Serenity, and Stargate Atlantis. > > William A Wenrich > Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > htt