[LMB] OT: People Changing Political Words

Eric Oppen ravenclaweric at gmail.com
Sat Sep 18 16:51:32 BST 2021


The actual Marxists were, themselves, almost all not "workers" themselves.
Except for some journalism (in which he let his anger issues really show;
you know I'm no slouch at that, but I was shocked at some of the things he
wrote) Karl Marx never worked in his life, preferring to sponge off his pal
Engels, who (irony of ironies) had money from his factory-owning family.

They were like people who idealize a group to which they do not belong, and
construct a mental image of it at great variance to what that group is
actually like.  When they find out that their rosy mental pictures have
little-to-no relation to reality, such people often react with shock and
outrage.  Hence the Marxist perjorative "lumpenproletariat" for workers who
dared to not live up to the ideas in Marx's mind.

On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 10:37 AM Pat Mathews <mathews55 at msn.com> wrote:

> Eric and all - oddly enough, the workers the various Marxist parties tried
> to represent, had little or no taste for revolution as long as they could
> get a decent job at a decent wage. The period's attempts to label such aims
> as "socialism" drew a lot of people to the various movements, which only
> ended with FDR's various reforms.
>
> Not that those in power ever learn from that, says she, cynically, having
> watched the Second Gilded Age in full swing since 1984.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of
> Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2021 9:30 AM
> To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <
> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: People Changing Political Words
>
> In a lot of ways, what we might call "classical socialism" never recovered
> from the shock of 1914.  After years and years of them preaching the
> solidarity of workers against the "oppressors," they just couldn't process
> the sight of the workers they so idealized marching off happily to war
> behind their "bourgeois" officers, instead of shooting their officers and
> embracing their "comrades" on the other side.
>
> And if you look into it, you find that the Italian and German regimes did
> do a lot of "socialistic" stuff.  Some of you keep calling Hitler a
> right-winger, but he had NO patience for hangovers from the past---he
> pretty much ended even the nominal independence of a lot of the states that
> made up the Reich, like Bavaria.  In WWI the Bavarian army, as well as a
> few other states', were nominally independent organizations, but not in
> WWII.
>
> On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 10:04 AM David McMillan <skyefire at skyefire.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On 9/18/2021 9:15 AM, Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold wrote:
> > >
> > > He may have been influenced by the well known meme claiming that since
> > the full name of the Nazi Party was "National Socialists," Hitler was
> > obviously a communist, therefore all communists are Nazis :-}
> >
> >      Unless I'm misremembering, NS /did/ in fact begin as a branch of
> > the international socialist movement.  One that substituted nationalism
> > for "class struggle," hence the name.
> >
> >      IIRC, it was started (in Italy?) by subset of the Marxist movement
> > that was frustrated that the "glorious global revolution" just wasn't
> > happening, and decided they needed a more effective way to energize the
> > proletariat.  Finding an "other" to whip up a hate movement against was
> > the solution they chose.
> >
> >
> > --
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> > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
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> >
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