[LMB] OT: People Changing Political Words

Markus Baur baur at chello.at
Sat Sep 18 17:19:10 BST 2021


yes - reactionary Otto von Bismark (or his back office guys) had a much 
better idea of what workers really wanted at the time - hence his social 
reforms (health insurance, pension, reasonable work laws)

servus

markus

Am 18.09.2021 um 17:51 schrieb Eric Oppen:
> The actual Marxists were, themselves, almost all not "workers" themselves.
> Except for some journalism (in which he let his anger issues really show;
> you know I'm no slouch at that, but I was shocked at some of the things he
> wrote) Karl Marx never worked in his life, preferring to sponge off his pal
> Engels, who (irony of ironies) had money from his factory-owning family.
> 
> They were like people who idealize a group to which they do not belong, and
> construct a mental image of it at great variance to what that group is
> actually like.  When they find out that their rosy mental pictures have
> little-to-no relation to reality, such people often react with shock and
> outrage.  Hence the Marxist perjorative "lumpenproletariat" for workers who
> dared to not live up to the ideas in Marx's mind.
> 
> On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 10:37 AM Pat Mathews <mathews55 at msn.com> wrote:
> 
>> Eric and all - oddly enough, the workers the various Marxist parties tried
>> to represent, had little or no taste for revolution as long as they could
>> get a decent job at a decent wage. The period's attempts to label such aims
>> as "socialism" drew a lot of people to the various movements, which only
>> ended with FDR's various reforms.
>>
>> Not that those in power ever learn from that, says she, cynically, having
>> watched the Second Gilded Age in full swing since 1984.
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of
>> Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2021 9:30 AM
>> To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <
>> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
>> Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: People Changing Political Words
>>
>> In a lot of ways, what we might call "classical socialism" never recovered
>> from the shock of 1914.  After years and years of them preaching the
>> solidarity of workers against the "oppressors," they just couldn't process
>> the sight of the workers they so idealized marching off happily to war
>> behind their "bourgeois" officers, instead of shooting their officers and
>> embracing their "comrades" on the other side.
>>
>> And if you look into it, you find that the Italian and German regimes did
>> do a lot of "socialistic" stuff.  Some of you keep calling Hitler a
>> right-winger, but he had NO patience for hangovers from the past---he
>> pretty much ended even the nominal independence of a lot of the states that
>> made up the Reich, like Bavaria.  In WWI the Bavarian army, as well as a
>> few other states', were nominally independent organizations, but not in
>> WWII.
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 10:04 AM David McMillan <skyefire at skyefire.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/18/2021 9:15 AM, Peter Hews via Lois-Bujold wrote:
>>>>
>>>> He may have been influenced by the well known meme claiming that since
>>> the full name of the Nazi Party was "National Socialists," Hitler was
>>> obviously a communist, therefore all communists are Nazis :-}
>>>
>>>       Unless I'm misremembering, NS /did/ in fact begin as a branch of
>>> the international socialist movement.  One that substituted nationalism
>>> for "class struggle," hence the name.
>>>
>>>       IIRC, it was started (in Italy?) by subset of the Marxist movement
>>> that was frustrated that the "glorious global revolution" just wasn't
>>> happening, and decided they needed a more effective way to energize the
>>> proletariat.  Finding an "other" to whip up a hate movement against was
>>> the solution they chose.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
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