[LMB] OT: Gender Roles

Matija Grabnar lmb at matija.com
Sat Sep 25 20:46:12 BST 2021


On 23/09/2021 21:31, Matthew George wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 2:54 PM brazee <howard at brazee.net> wrote:
>
>> Much of the time when men take on “female” roles, there is an excuse that
>> they are doing so in a manly way.   Cooking is an example of this.
>>
> High-status cooking, namely being a chef, has always been male-associated.
> It's the routine jobs that must constantly be redone - cooking to provide
> fuel, cleaning, general maintenance of the necessities of living - that
> have been assigned to women.  When the role rises above drudgery, it
> becomes male.
It's funny, sometimes it seems like you actually understand things.
>> Men were able to get into nursing again after there were lots of drafted
>> men from the military who were nurses.    The military also got men to wear
>> wrist watches which were women’s jewelry before WWI.
>>
> It's now economic pressures and rewards that result in any substantial
> number of men being nurses.  When people are allowed and actually able to
> seek out the employment they prefer, they tend to fall into gender
> categories.  Nursing, which involves interacting and caring for people in
> an intimate way, is overwhelmingly female.  The "Scandinavian Paradox"
> raises its head yet again...

But then you show you are a slave of your preconceptions again. If more 
man or women flock to a profession you think is appropriate for that 
particular sex, you call it proof that you were right, and if the ratio 
is the reverse of what you expected, then it must be economic factors. 
Just like the way you simply assumed (with full confidence in yourself, 
and obviously without checking) that Marie Curie would not have had 
children even if Pierre had lived.

The truth is that there are bigger differences between people than the 
difference of the averages of the sexes. Whenever you think that one 
attribute (be it sex, or the color of the skin, or age, or 
what-have-you) explains the whole of the person, you will, more than 
likely, be wrong.

Other than gestation and breastfeeding, there is no profession that 
either sex couldn't do, if they put their mind to it.

Yes, (some) men like to pretend that when men do a job it is somehow 
more elevated, or more sophisticated than if women do it.

I've seen plenty of examples throughout my life. When I studied computer 
science, our class was about 50/50 men and women. As we got jobs, I 
watched women drop out of the profession, often due to hostile 
environment. It is very draining, when a woman has to be twice as good 
as any man just to be treated equally. I have to admit it took me some 
time before I realized this was happening, but once I started paying 
attention, it became more obvious.

I saw much the same thing in the martial arts environment, but at least 
there, if the hostility came from peers, the women could (and did) prove 
their skill in a way that drove the lesson home when their detractors 
tried to show how superior they were. And you know what? None of them 
were any less feminine because of it, and some of them were mothers (not 
all of the men were fathers, either).

In neither case were the women less capable, just the men took their 
presence as a chance to establish superiority.




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