[LMB] OT: People Changing Political Words

Eric Oppen ravenclaweric at gmail.com
Sun Sep 26 23:50:23 BST 2021

FWIW,  the Scandinavians themselves say they aren't socialist.

On Sun, Sep 26, 2021, 3:58 PM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

> On 26/09/2021 05:58, Damien Sullivan wrote:
> > On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 05:32:49PM +0100, Bujold list wrote:
> >> On 18/09/2021 16:36, Pat Mathews wrote:
> >>> Eric and all - oddly enough, the workers the various Marxist parties
> tried to represent, had little or no taste for revolution as long as they
> could get a decent job at a decent wage.
> >> Decent job at a decent wage is pretty much the definition of socialism.
> Some
> > Strong disagree.  I'd say core definitions of socialism are "social
> control of
> > the means of production" or "worker control of the means of production",
> > and a general hostility to wage labor for private employers (and
> > hostility to landlords).
> Funny, that's what I would call communism. What would you call
> communism, then?
> Uh, unless under "worker control of the means of production" you mean
> something like giving the workers into stock options and making them
> shareholders?
> Because that's something that could be argued either way.
> >    The least radical form of such sociaism would
> > be a market society of the self-employed and worker-owned cooperatives,
> > and laws strongly favoring renting turning into ownership.
> Surely the least radical form of socialism would be democratic
> socialism? Like they practice in Germany, and in the Nordic countries?
> Which means support for workers' rights, unions and collective
> bargaining? (Unions that work, not like in the US).
> The only form of socialism that survived the last 70+ years? Which is
> why I think of it when I speak of socialism?
> > OTOH words pick up different meanings, and decades of the right labeling
> > anything government as "socialism" has diluted the meaning in many uses.
> BTW, since you mention hostility to landlords: Do you know how Adam
> Smith (the patron saint of capitalism) felt about landlords?
> I understand he took a rather dim view of them.
> --
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