From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk  Fri Apr  1 01:25:49 2022
From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson)
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2022 01:25:49 +0100
Subject: [LMB] OT: Ukraine connection
In-Reply-To: <A8211C8F-EE7E-452E-A5AC-38A554FE6454@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1670.1648743318.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <A8211C8F-EE7E-452E-A5AC-38A554FE6454@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <vhec4h1umvrj1i31u1a1qtkiabkb573j5c@4ax.com>

On Fri, 1 Apr 2022 06:35:14 +0800, Sharon Micenko
<wembleyware at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>I?m very sorry to hear of your loss, Marc. As you can see, I have a Ukrainian surname and up until a year ago my F-I-L still remembered his family?s flight from the Soviets at the end of WW11. It?s a sad thing to say that I?m really glad he didn?t live to see this. My M-I-L is still alive, though. We don?t have close family in
Ukraine, but that?s because they were shot or starved to death during the 1920s.
>
>That man has made a big mistake, and millions of people are paying for it.

Tash had the measure of the man, years ago. Nekulturnyy Fuckwit.
--
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand
 to have the old man around.  But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished
 at how much the old man had learned in seven years.   -  Mark Twain


From vanlook19 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  1 01:30:32 2022
From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 17:30:32 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Ukraine connection
In-Reply-To: <000401d84550$300ae430$9020ac90$@gmail.com>
References: <5gfb4h1nnnbdklstq9e3105ngurmlrgq98@4ax.com>
 <000401d84550$300ae430$9020ac90$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD5sqnAUqEy4uxjds29gW27Eis4-=nvEE+TDA2FEEOJegrf8-g@mail.gmail.com>

I am so very sorry for your loss; especially since she was stolen from you
by warmongering.

BJ

From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk  Fri Apr  1 01:32:41 2022
From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson)
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2022 01:32:41 +0100
Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire?
In-Reply-To: <em29f788b7-ebbe-4ff6-bbac-65362fbb3f95@desktop-ckcgfo5>
References: <mailman.1578.1648350298.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38448758052BDC25144A5566CE1C9@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
 <em2fa7f004-6303-4670-ac1b-399a2a2a9f48@desktop-ckcgfo5>
 <24fb4h1t9nfj4huiles0moufe4e72oaavs@4ax.com>
 <em29f788b7-ebbe-4ff6-bbac-65362fbb3f95@desktop-ckcgfo5>
Message-ID: <olhc4hp51pbjtg17p2qfkrdhqr0j8q210s@4ax.com>

On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 16:57:12 +0000, "Harvey Fishman" <fishman at panix.com>
wrote:

>>My high school is older than many countries.  Founded 1620.

>The old school, eh?

Nah.  The girls got "the old school", as it was thought they'd be less
likely to wreck it.  The boys got the new building, constructed some
time in the 1780s, I think.

https://www.merchanttaylors.com/

--
Nothing optional - from homosexuality to adultery - is ever made
punishable unless those who do the prohibiting [...] have a
repressed desire to participate.  - Christopher Hitchens


From fishman at panix.com  Fri Apr  1 01:44:58 2022
From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman)
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2022 00:44:58 +0000
Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire?
In-Reply-To: <olhc4hp51pbjtg17p2qfkrdhqr0j8q210s@4ax.com>
References: <mailman.1578.1648350298.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38448758052BDC25144A5566CE1C9@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
 <em2fa7f004-6303-4670-ac1b-399a2a2a9f48@desktop-ckcgfo5>
 <24fb4h1t9nfj4huiles0moufe4e72oaavs@4ax.com>
 <em29f788b7-ebbe-4ff6-bbac-65362fbb3f95@desktop-ckcgfo5>
 <olhc4hp51pbjtg17p2qfkrdhqr0j8q210s@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <emfd39f356-8a3d-4e26-8376-ad18b0c52779@desktop-ckcgfo5>

My high school was built in 1904, though they moved to a new building in 
1992.

https://stuy.enschool.org

Harvey

------ Original Message ------
From: "Marc Wilson" <marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk>
To: "LMB" <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Bcc: fishman at panix.com
Sent: 3/31/2022 8:32:41 PM
Subject: Re: [LMB] An ancient empire?

>On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 16:57:12 +0000, "Harvey Fishman" <fishman at panix.com>
>wrote:
>
>>>My high school is older than many countries.  Founded 1620.
>
>>The old school, eh?
>
>Nah.  The girls got "the old school", as it was thought they'd be less
>likely to wreck it.  The boys got the new building, constructed some
>time in the 1780s, I think.
>
>https://www.merchanttaylors.com/
>
>--
>Nothing optional - from homosexuality to adultery - is ever made
>punishable unless those who do the prohibiting [...] have a
>repressed desire to participate.  - Christopher Hitchens
>
>



From sylviamcivers at gmail.com  Fri Apr  1 02:35:46 2022
From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers)
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 21:35:46 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Introducing the Auditors
In-Reply-To: <a18e3069-1c90-17ce-2299-dad857c57ee2@aol.com>
References: <a18e3069-1c90-17ce-2299-dad857c57ee2.ref@aol.com>
 <a18e3069-1c90-17ce-2299-dad857c57ee2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAD6Rr-zWo9b6oa6PfY7rxKcq1GwsqQzb30XRaq0OiUVXnoH9uA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 3:26 PM Pouncer via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

>
> Nobody does what Gwynne does as well as Gwynne does.
> I dare hope the last one is not the last one.
>
> That said, let me let her take a break.  Let's do
> a close read on a much neglected, and hard to find,
> work -- Borders of Infinity (The Framing Sequence).
>


I think I actually have the original book, somewhere ....

From kawyle at att.net  Fri Apr  1 02:39:57 2022
From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 01:39:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] Introducing the Auditors
In-Reply-To: <CAD6Rr-zWo9b6oa6PfY7rxKcq1GwsqQzb30XRaq0OiUVXnoH9uA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a18e3069-1c90-17ce-2299-dad857c57ee2.ref@aol.com>
 <a18e3069-1c90-17ce-2299-dad857c57ee2@aol.com>
 <CAD6Rr-zWo9b6oa6PfY7rxKcq1GwsqQzb30XRaq0OiUVXnoH9uA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <638072721.437334.1648777197184@mail.yahoo.com>

 If anyone's looking to buy the ebook, be careful: there's a $3.99 Kindle edition that doesn't?include all three of the stories as well as the frame story. One can get the whole package (again, for Kindle) for $7.99.
Karen A. Wyle
    On Thursday, March 31, 2022, 09:36:10 PM EDT, Sylvia McIvers <sylviamcivers at gmail.com> wrote:  
 
 On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 3:26 PM Pouncer via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

>
> Nobody does what Gwynne does as well as Gwynne does.
> I dare hope the last one is not the last one.
>
> That said, let me let her take a break.? Let's do
> a close read on a much neglected, and hard to find,
> work -- Borders of Infinity (The Framing Sequence).
>


I think I actually have the original book, somewhere ....
-- 
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
  

From kdschoen1 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  1 06:24:49 2022
From: kdschoen1 at gmail.com (Kenton Schoen)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 01:24:49 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Memory & tixie
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844BD034D5D1723CE1D313FCEE19@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1648724401.31440.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844BD034D5D1723CE1D313FCEE19@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAMqW7=59K6CdDT71YaaPPgPp5=YuR8+6Y1EN=tyAfH5sf7mSAQ@mail.gmail.com>

We have yet to do a first reading of "Knot of Shadows", haven't we?

Kenton

On Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 7:36 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com
>
>
> Gwynne,
> Thank you once again for your brilliant, insightful, detailed, and
> extensive analysis of _Memory_.? Even after all these years, you're still
> finding new details for us to savor and ponder.
> All this, and tixie-ing in the best style, too!
> Colossal kudos!
> Jerrie
>
> Gwynne: Thank you for the kind words. I just ramble through each chapter,
> enjoying it all. I'm often surprised at some new angle that I'd missed
> previously.
> And the comments and discussions on the board bring up some good points.
>
> Give me a day or so, I have French homework to finish tonight. I'll start
> another
> one soon. I'm still leaning towards ACC. But there's so many other good
> choices....
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kdschoen1 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Fri Apr  1 13:17:38 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 12:17:38 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Decision time
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1648810801.3341.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1648810801.3341.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38445EFD9B748F873A4CCB79CEE09@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



There's been so many great suggestions, and a few others from
my personal 'to do' list... but I have to pick one. There's no rush, but
I like it when there's at least one book study on the board, it leads
to some great discussions, and ...well... it's one of the reasons for the
board in the first place. And it's fun. So ... decision time. I'm leaning
towards ACC because it's fun and, on the surface, frothy - so I'm looking
forward to looking at the hidden depths. And it's the book that really
made me like Ekaterin. And it has lots of Gregor. And bugs. And Byerly
and Mark, too.

Plus each time I hit the dinner party, it gets a bit easier to get through.

So... if someone has a really strong urge for something else, be persuasive.

Besides, there's no rule that we can only do ONE book at a time. We
could do a Vorkosiverse and a Penric maybe?

From kawyle at att.net  Fri Apr  1 13:37:26 2022
From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 12:37:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] Decision time
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38445EFD9B748F873A4CCB79CEE09@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1648810801.3341.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38445EFD9B748F873A4CCB79CEE09@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <637617370.516232.1648816646393@mail.yahoo.com>

 I'd love to have (though not to lead...) a discussion of ACC?comparable to the wonderful one we just had for Memory.
Karen A. Wyle
    On Friday, April 1, 2022, 08:16:16 AM EDT, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:  
 
 

There's been so many great suggestions, and a few others from
my personal 'to do' list... but I have to pick one. There's no rush, but
I like it when there's at least one book study on the board, it leads
to some great discussions, and ...well... it's one of the reasons for the
board in the first place. And it's fun. So ... decision time. I'm leaning
towards ACC because it's fun and, on the surface, frothy - so I'm looking
forward to looking at the hidden depths. And it's the book that really
made me like Ekaterin. And it has lots of Gregor. And bugs. And Byerly
and Mark, too.

Plus each time I hit the dinner party, it gets a bit easier to get through.

So... if someone has a really strong urge for something else, be persuasive.

Besides, there's no rule that we can only do ONE book at a time. We
could do a Vorkosiverse and a Penric maybe?
-- 
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
  

From fishman at panix.com  Fri Apr  1 14:12:28 2022
From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman)
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2022 13:12:28 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Decision time
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38445EFD9B748F873A4CCB79CEE09@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.1.1648810801.3341.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38445EFD9B748F873A4CCB79CEE09@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <em36c06f11-787f-43bc-b571-8cf13700f3bd@desktop-ckcgfo5>

I vote for ACC!! And THANK YOU for leading these!!!

Harvey

------ Original Message ------
From: "Gwynne Powell" <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
To: "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk" <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Bcc: fishman at panix.com
Sent: 4/1/2022 8:17:38 AM
Subject: [LMB] Decision time

>
>
>There's been so many great suggestions, and a few others from
>my personal 'to do' list... but I have to pick one. There's no rush, but
>I like it when there's at least one book study on the board, it leads
>to some great discussions, and ...well... it's one of the reasons for the
>board in the first place. And it's fun. So ... decision time. I'm leaning
>towards ACC because it's fun and, on the surface, frothy - so I'm looking
>forward to looking at the hidden depths. And it's the book that really
>made me like Ekaterin. And it has lots of Gregor. And bugs. And Byerly
>and Mark, too.
>
>Plus each time I hit the dinner party, it gets a bit easier to get through.
>
>So... if someone has a really strong urge for something else, be persuasive.
>
>Besides, there's no rule that we can only do ONE book at a time. We
>could do a Vorkosiverse and a Penric maybe?
>--
>Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com
>Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
>http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold



From tzbarasc at lasierra.edu  Fri Apr  1 14:58:17 2022
From: tzbarasc at lasierra.edu (Tony Zbaraschuk)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 08:58:17 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Memory & tixie
In-Reply-To: <CAMqW7=59K6CdDT71YaaPPgPp5=YuR8+6Y1EN=tyAfH5sf7mSAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1648724401.31440.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844BD034D5D1723CE1D313FCEE19@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAMqW7=59K6CdDT71YaaPPgPp5=YuR8+6Y1EN=tyAfH5sf7mSAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+x2q7u4EA4nJzKZ_yqP_ggHupumXucDP1rhAwk7D9iOk48G3w@mail.gmail.com>

This is correct.  I've been waiting for the Memory re-read to finish so we
can tie the knot.


Tony Z

On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 12:25 AM Kenton Schoen <kdschoen1 at gmail.com> wrote:

> We have yet to do a first reading of "Knot of Shadows", haven't we?
>
> Kenton
>
> On Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 7:36 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com
> >
> >
> > Gwynne,
> > Thank you once again for your brilliant, insightful, detailed, and
> > extensive analysis of _Memory_.? Even after all these years, you're still
> > finding new details for us to savor and ponder.
> > All this, and tixie-ing in the best style, too!
> > Colossal kudos!
> > Jerrie
> >
> > Gwynne: Thank you for the kind words. I just ramble through each chapter,
> > enjoying it all. I'm often surprised at some new angle that I'd missed
> > previously.
> > And the comments and discussions on the board bring up some good points.
> >
> > Give me a day or so, I have French homework to finish tonight. I'll start
> > another
> > one soon. I'm still leaning towards ACC. But there's so many other good
> > choices....
> > --
> > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kdschoen1 at gmail.com
> > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
> >
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to tzbarasc at lasierra.edu
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>


-- 
Tony Zbaraschuk
Bookworm, talker, learner
Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!"

From wawenri at msn.com  Fri Apr  1 15:34:40 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 14:34:40 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Memory & tixie
In-Reply-To: <CAMqW7=59K6CdDT71YaaPPgPp5=YuR8+6Y1EN=tyAfH5sf7mSAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1648724401.31440.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844BD034D5D1723CE1D313FCEE19@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAMqW7=59K6CdDT71YaaPPgPp5=YuR8+6Y1EN=tyAfH5sf7mSAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB484726E0B1CBC8E97B4A0E7AB4E09@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

I would like to do that next, if possible.

William A Wenrich
Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me.

-----Original Message-----
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> On Behalf Of Kenton Schoen
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2022 11:25 PM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [LMB] Memory & tixie

We have yet to do a first reading of "Knot of Shadows", haven't we?

Kenton

On Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 7:36 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com
>
>
> Gwynne,
> Thank you once again for your brilliant, insightful, detailed, and 
> extensive analysis of _Memory_.? Even after all these years, you're 
> still finding new details for us to savor and ponder.
> All this, and tixie-ing in the best style, too!
> Colossal kudos!
> Jerrie
>
> Gwynne: Thank you for the kind words. I just ramble through each 
> chapter, enjoying it all. I'm often surprised at some new angle that 
> I'd missed previously.
> And the comments and discussions on the board bring up some good points.
>
> Give me a day or so, I have French homework to finish tonight. I'll 
> start another one soon. I'm still leaning towards ACC. But there's so 
> many other good choices....
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kdschoen1 at gmail.com 
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists
> .herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=04
> %7C01%7C%7C3b398df5f71a4d554bf708da139ffed9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaa
> aaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637843875146199040%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoi
> MC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;
> sdata=yl%2FYJDmbwlzfRX8g30%2F3r93aYtRWtYjru2ERewuWVhw%3D&amp;reserved=
> 0
>
--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7C3b398df5f71a4d554bf708da139ffed9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637843875146199040%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=yl%2FYJDmbwlzfRX8g30%2F3r93aYtRWtYjru2ERewuWVhw%3D&amp;reserved=0


From quietann at gmail.com  Fri Apr  1 15:50:12 2022
From: quietann at gmail.com (quietann)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 10:50:12 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Ukraine connection
In-Reply-To: <CAD5sqnAUqEy4uxjds29gW27Eis4-=nvEE+TDA2FEEOJegrf8-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5gfb4h1nnnbdklstq9e3105ngurmlrgq98@4ax.com>
 <000401d84550$300ae430$9020ac90$@gmail.com>
 <CAD5sqnAUqEy4uxjds29gW27Eis4-=nvEE+TDA2FEEOJegrf8-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMvta0Ph_+Pek0Kz5VdYGcBH-sg1ONNASx99FYKJNXhZpdk26Q@mail.gmail.com>

Marc,

I am so sad to hear of the loss of your friend. I hope her death is avenged.

Ann


-- 
quietann at gmail.com

aka "The Accidental Jewess"

From lmb at matija.com  Fri Apr  1 16:37:36 2022
From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 17:37:36 +0200
Subject: [LMB] OT: Ukraine connection
In-Reply-To: <5gfb4h1nnnbdklstq9e3105ngurmlrgq98@4ax.com>
References: <5gfb4h1nnnbdklstq9e3105ngurmlrgq98@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <68b3a81b-2e1a-9f23-ee30-b030cedae107@matija.com>

On 31/03/2022 16:51, Marc Wilson wrote:
> I've despised Vlad The Invader, the smirking botoxed war-gnome, for some
> time - in a distant sort of way.
>
> But now it's personal, and visceral, and hot.

Every war impoverishes humanity for all the might have been that people 
would have brought us if they had not been killed.

Please accept my condolences for the loss of your friend.

Every war is bad, but this one is particularly brutal because if Putin 
admits that he can't win, he loses his position, and probably head. So 
he is pouring on the brutality hoping that will bring him what 
incompetent tactics and logistics did not. Fie on him.

From howard at brazee.net  Fri Apr  1 16:55:00 2022
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 09:55:00 -0600
Subject: [LMB] War is bad
In-Reply-To: <68b3a81b-2e1a-9f23-ee30-b030cedae107@matija.com>
References: <5gfb4h1nnnbdklstq9e3105ngurmlrgq98@4ax.com>
 <68b3a81b-2e1a-9f23-ee30-b030cedae107@matija.com>
Message-ID: <8041374E-0A54-4AFC-AD6C-C7ACBD7EF5E8@brazee.net>



> On Apr 1, 2022, at 9:37 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Every war impoverishes humanity for all the might have been that people would have brought us if they had not been killed.

I?m trying to remember a Bujold line about all wars costing.



From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Fri Apr  1 18:25:21 2022
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 13:25:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] Uncle Hugo's is reopening, possibly in June
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204011316350.9803@pannier.local>

Just got an email newsletter from Don Blyly from Uncle Hugo's in 
Minneapolis (which you may remember was burned down in the riots there a 
few years ago).

He said, "Yesterday afternoon we had the closing on the new building for 
the Uncles, at 2716 E. 31st St., about 2 miles east of our old location." 
He went on to say that he's hoping to reopen sometime in June after he 
renovates the location and gets new stock and new staff.

That was good news - that an independent SF/mystery store is literally 
rising from the ashes!

You can still order Lois' books (signed) from the store now - Blyly has 
continued to run his mail-order business.

Alayne

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca

What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich

From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  1 18:54:53 2022
From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 12:54:53 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Uncle Hugo's is reopening, possibly in June
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204011316350.9803@pannier.local>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204011316350.9803@pannier.local>
Message-ID: <CAK6ahzZAEoS1CV=kuvKF44Zr6Mmxaf_OutW2TTa3j8axLMm4pw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm glad to see they are slowly getting back into business. Looks like
there will be job openings for bookstore clerks in the area.

On Fri, Apr 1, 2022, 12:25 PM alayne--- via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

> Just got an email newsletter from Don Blyly from Uncle Hugo's in
> Minneapolis (which you may remember was burned down in the riots there a
> few years ago).
>
> He said, "Yesterday afternoon we had the closing on the new building for
> the Uncles, at 2716 E. 31st St., about 2 miles east of our old location."
> He went on to say that he's hoping to reopen sometime in June after he
> renovates the location and gets new stock and new staff.
>
> That was good news - that an independent SF/mystery store is literally
> rising from the ashes!
>
> You can still order Lois' books (signed) from the store now - Blyly has
> continued to run his mail-order business.
>
> Alayne
>
> --
> Alayne McGregor
> alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca
>
> What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
> need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
> institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
> and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From matt.msg at gmail.com  Fri Apr  1 20:30:06 2022
From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 15:30:06 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: The Vonnegut in the Classroom
In-Reply-To: <9veb4h9qha0enta6siilj4muoms6ri2shd@4ax.com>
References: <CACqhCVd_tv90xWfRggeSeDq560P3Rs5==HeMZ-dMv_KeT_BKMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2D25EA87-4794-4698-86E1-83D9B4B1E121@me.com>
 <9veb4h9qha0enta6siilj4muoms6ri2shd@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CAAjYNUrv2e9Zz93TaJddR8z9+Bfe2HxNxbxSWt7MwV+mzzYXHg@mail.gmail.com>

"One of the most challenging authors in American literature"

Seriously?  T.S. Eliot is far more challenging, if not necessarily more
thought-provoking.  Samuel Clemens, for the entirety of his works, not just
Sawyer and Finn - teaching about *The Mysterious Stranger* must be a
nightmare in the religion-soaked, highly litigious US.

Nabokov, for god's sake.  Nabokov.  He's the reason no one names their
daughters 'Lolita'.  And even though his prose is a delight, getting
through the entirety of that work is a challenge because the subject matter
is so repellent.

Vonnegut is practically Theodore Guisel by comparison.

Matt G.

From baur at chello.at  Fri Apr  1 20:36:24 2022
From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 21:36:24 +0200
Subject: [LMB] War is bad
In-Reply-To: <8041374E-0A54-4AFC-AD6C-C7ACBD7EF5E8@brazee.net>
References: <5gfb4h1nnnbdklstq9e3105ngurmlrgq98@4ax.com>
 <68b3a81b-2e1a-9f23-ee30-b030cedae107@matija.com>
 <8041374E-0A54-4AFC-AD6C-C7ACBD7EF5E8@brazee.net>
Message-ID: <1f42362c-70d1-7b0d-0d58-7539aa9ad03d@chello.at>



Am 01.04.2022 um 17:55 schrieb Howard Brazee:
> 
> 
>> On Apr 1, 2022, at 9:37 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Every war impoverishes humanity for all the might have been that people would have brought us if they had not been killed.
> 
> I?m trying to remember a Bujold line about all wars costing.

something about room with green silk tapestries?

servus

markus

> 

From deborahsdempsey at gmail.com  Sat Apr  2 00:14:31 2022
From: deborahsdempsey at gmail.com (Deborah Dempsey)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 19:14:31 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Uncle Hugo's is reopening, possibly in June
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204011316350.9803@pannier.local>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204011316350.9803@pannier.local>
Message-ID: <FC1694AB-2F2E-4B47-9286-1D7250817008@gmail.com>

The news about TheUncles is very welcome indeed. I?m hoping to convince my partner to donate classic English mysteries (except the complete Michael Innes shelf!).

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 1, 2022, at 1:25 PM, alayne--- via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?Just got an email newsletter from Don Blyly from Uncle Hugo's in Minneapolis (which you may remember was burned down in the riots there a few years ago).
> 
> He said, "Yesterday afternoon we had the closing on the new building for the Uncles, at 2716 E. 31st St., about 2 miles east of our old location." He went on to say that he's hoping to reopen sometime in June after he renovates the location and gets new stock and new staff.
> 
> That was good news - that an independent SF/mystery store is literally rising from the ashes!
> 
> You can still order Lois' books (signed) from the store now - Blyly has continued to run his mail-order business.
> 
> Alayne
> 
> -- 
> Alayne McGregor
> alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca
> 
> What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
> need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
> institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
> and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich
> -- 
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to deborahsdempsey at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold


From pouncer at aol.com  Sat Apr  2 00:14:45 2022
From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 18:14:45 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Lord Auditor Count Vorvolk
References: <2a072320-ab16-4d99-69dc-c78e7d7a587a.ref@aol.com>
Message-ID: <2a072320-ab16-4d99-69dc-c78e7d7a587a@aol.com>

The first, hmmm, interval is only about seven pages.

Simon is announced. The Imperial Military hospital has
male medical corpsmen for sure.  If there are female
corps"men" or nurses, such persons are not in evidence.
The two medical men here are not named. The corpsman appears
to introduce Miles's visitor, and will appear again in a
moment.

Simon Illyan has a snub nose, bright eyes, and an air of
youth despite brown hair going grey. He had no aura of
menace, nor hardly any presence at all.  The
inconspicuous spy, chief of Imperial Security.  Not, in
these scenes, identified by rank as "Captain" Illyan.
Nor referred to, in the narrative from Miles's point of
view, as "Simon". He is merely Illyan, the chief. "Hi,
Boss."  "Don't bother saluting."  It's an informal
relationship, still.

Miles in in the hospital recovering from having his arms
smashed. He looks like hell. Everything hurts. One arm
was completely smashed, the other was broken into
slightly larger pieces. He's in slings and casts and
braces, almost immobilized.  Both arms were replaced
with plastic bones.  Miles will now wait to see if the
marrow transplants will accept their new plastic homes.

Miles's health (and safety and security?) are the first
priority for Illyan. The current injuries are the second
time Miles has returned from (successful) missions on a
stretcher. Illyan expresses the hope the sequence does
not become a habit.  (Or a Barrayaran tradition?) The
concern prompts Miles to worry about becoming entirely
plastic eventually.

Illyan reveals concerns about Miles's missions.  Plural.
The reports submitted were "as usual, masterpieces of
understatement and misdirection." This assessment was
delivered serenely.

Miles argues that "anybody might read them."

However, there is a problem.  Money.  Although the
results of Miles's mission are, apart from his injuries,
"highly satisfactory", there are "charges" that date
back, earlier to Dagoola.

In this edition, the "Dagoola" reference foreshadows the
prison camp tale that shares the title with the
collection.  The first time reader is fairly warned, but
not in-clued.

Illyan considers that the money spent to keep Miles as
far from the capital and the campstool as possible is
well spent.  Keep the damned plot-magnet away from
favor-and-office seekers, and his father's adversaries.
BUT, certain parties in "Imperial Accounting" are
wondering where cash has gone.  Equipment replacement
chits have been outrageous. More than once. Even from
Illyan's point of view. Illyan intends to quash any
courts martial efforts, but wants to be fully aware of
what's going on.

I wonder if "Accounting" is a branch of the military,
like "Ops" or a committee within the Council of Counts
or a dedicated Ministry ...  In any case, Lois --
elsewhere -- claims this is the first instance of an
Imperial Auditor.  I suspect the Count Vorvolk is on the
Count's committee...  I will entertain alternative
viewpoints and arguments.

"Count Vorvolk in Accounting is their front man, and he
is depressingly loyal, in addition to having the
emperor's personal, er, support.... He thinks he's being
a watch-dog. ... He must be handled with utmost care
whether he's mistaken, or not. "

Miles picks up on the "not".  Illyan's visit is timed to
interrogate him while he's groggy from surgery. "You can
be a real sonofabitch some days, Simon, do you know?"

I think this is the only instance in the piece where
Simon is called by first name.

Miles wonders if he can exchange truth for amnesty.
Illyan flatly agrees. If necessary.

Miles works himself into a rage. "You -- vile --
*BASTARD!*  You dare call me a thief..."  He swings his
feet out, pulls himself up and topples forward. Simon
catches him.  A doctor enters the room and catches the
chief of ImpSec in what looks like a session of torture.

"Your interrogation, or whatever, can take place in your
own damned headquarters. I will not have that kind of
thing going on in my hospital."

Miles tries to persuade Illyan the deceiving appearances
were arranged.

Illyan puts Miles back in bed. Miles tells the doc it's
all good. But Miles now doubts himself. Was his whole
career just a plot to get a dangerously clumsy plot
magnet out from underfoot?  And now, suspected of being
a peculator...

Of course, Miles DID divert a half million marks
intended for repairs and replacement of the Dendarii
shuttle fleet to make the clone, Mark, disappear happy.
Hmmm.

Aside, the cover of my paperback of the collection where
this framing story is published... There is a person,
looks male, in a space suit -- combat armor?  -- but
with a bare hand, reaching for another person's bare
hands, on the ends of bare forearms... blurbed as "By the
author of _Falling Free_"  It LOOKS like the cover art
is meant to evoke a zero-gee situation.  Weird.





-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


From vanlook19 at gmail.com  Sat Apr  2 00:23:20 2022
From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 16:23:20 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Lord Auditor Count Vorvolk
In-Reply-To: <2a072320-ab16-4d99-69dc-c78e7d7a587a@aol.com>
References: <2a072320-ab16-4d99-69dc-c78e7d7a587a.ref@aol.com>
 <2a072320-ab16-4d99-69dc-c78e7d7a587a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAD5sqnBMnz+OHKB2Q3QFOwEDTG=uqWDXAk54EUfWYGrQRNCb4A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 4:14 PM Pouncer via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

> Aside, the cover of my paperback of the collection where
> this framing story is published... There is a person,
> looks male, in a space suit -- combat armor?  -- but
> with a bare hand, reaching for another person's bare
> hands, on the ends of bare forearms... blurbed as "By the
> author of _Falling Free_"  It LOOKS like the cover art
> is meant to evoke a zero-gee situation.  Weird.
>

I rather thought that cover of BoI was supposed to be Beatrice slipping out
Miles' grip....

BJ

From proto at panix.com  Sat Apr  2 00:55:44 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 19:55:44 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Decision time
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38445EFD9B748F873A4CCB79CEE09@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1648810801.3341.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38445EFD9B748F873A4CCB79CEE09@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <1DC80238-463E-48E7-A47F-5D32FCF3C27F@panix.com>



> On Apr 1, 2022, at 8:17 AM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm leaning
> towards ACC because it's fun and, on the surface, frothy - so I'm looking
> forward to looking at the hidden depths. 

It?s part of the arc of Memory, A Civil Campaign, and Diplomatic Immunity where Miles achieves
maturity as Miles Vorkosigan, and in Herself?s words a fulfilled romance ends with the birth of children.

?
"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light."
 - Attributed to Plato







From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com  Sat Apr  2 02:05:05 2022
From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 20:05:05 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Decision time
In-Reply-To: <1DC80238-463E-48E7-A47F-5D32FCF3C27F@panix.com>
References: <mailman.1.1648810801.3341.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38445EFD9B748F873A4CCB79CEE09@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <1DC80238-463E-48E7-A47F-5D32FCF3C27F@panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAK6ahzY5iK=BER4TRPtC9vLqFosFA1cD2tD226rxRDWG-FdEJg@mail.gmail.com>

I vote for ACC. There is also the interview with Lois on YouTube bout ACC
we can reference.

On Fri, Apr 1, 2022, 6:55 PM WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com> wrote:

>
>
> > On Apr 1, 2022, at 8:17 AM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I'm leaning
> > towards ACC because it's fun and, on the surface, frothy - so I'm looking
> > forward to looking at the hidden depths.
>
> It?s part of the arc of Memory, A Civil Campaign, and Diplomatic Immunity
> where Miles achieves
> maturity as Miles Vorkosigan, and in Herself?s words a fulfilled romance
> ends with the birth of children.
>
> ?
> "We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy
> of life is when men are afraid of the light."
>  - Attributed to Plato
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com  Sat Apr  2 03:31:50 2022
From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2022 02:31:50 +0000
Subject: [LMB] ot: Tolkien's artwork
Message-ID: <6aa72b15-b121-e3dd-9b53-115e5e386adf@mindspring.com>

Here are lots of paintings, drawings, and maps by Tolkien, some never seen before: ?https://www.tolkienestate.com/painting/
?
Jerrie


From baur at chello.at  Sat Apr  2 06:32:23 2022
From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 07:32:23 +0200
Subject: [LMB] ot: Tolkien's artwork
In-Reply-To: <6aa72b15-b121-e3dd-9b53-115e5e386adf@mindspring.com>
References: <6aa72b15-b121-e3dd-9b53-115e5e386adf@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <a6b95eaa-12af-43f8-d3fe-780f1653277f@chello.at>

thank you!

servus

markus

Am 02.04.2022 um 04:31 schrieb adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com:
> Here are lots of paintings, drawings, and maps by Tolkien, some never seen before: ?https://www.tolkienestate.com/painting/
>   
> Jerrie
> 

From thefabmadamem at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  2 10:07:30 2022
From: thefabmadamem at yahoo.com (M. Haller Yamada)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 09:07:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixie
References: <609191730.1288383.1648890450179.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <609191730.1288383.1648890450179@mail.yahoo.com>

It's April 2, and we're wishing a very happy birthday to Martin Smith today!

In the northern hemisphere, April Showers bring May Flowers (like tulips and daffodils), and I assume it's very similar for the southern hemisphere, in that April Showers bring dahlias and chrysanthemums??

Anyway, we're bringing Martin to the showers in Kyril Island! He gets a nice hot soak and a look at the plumbing. The towels are rough like sandpaper, but dinner in the mess hall afterwards is very entertaining. Martin is given a seat with the Fun Group, who regale him with funny tales of woe and mishaps. The wine with dinner is an excellent vintage -- from Vorkosigan vinyards. The Kyril Island Regulars are just so happy to see a new face, and the evening goes by quickly until it devolves into singing. Still singing, Martin is loaded into his ride home, and tucked in with a real Imperial Service fluffy travel blanky.?

Hope your birthday brings fun and good memories!


From proto at panix.com  Sat Apr  2 12:09:33 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 07:09:33 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixie
In-Reply-To: <609191730.1288383.1648890450179@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <609191730.1288383.1648890450179.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <609191730.1288383.1648890450179@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C01D382E-D173-4A4D-87E8-AD0F2A3B5777@panix.com>



> On Apr 2, 2022, at 5:07 AM, M. Haller Yamada via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> It's April 2, and we're wishing a very happy birthday to Martin Smith today!


Ah, just consider Martin Miles?s driver going to Kyril Island.
?
It is wrong, always, everywhere, and for everyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.? ?W. K. Clifford (1845?1879), ?The Ethics? My take is belief should be proportional to the evidence. 





From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  2 13:54:28 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 12:54:28 +0000
Subject: [LMB] The Perfect Crime
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1648897201.25846.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1648897201.25846.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384402B0911E234A98CDE529CEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



Gwynne: I was just speculating... in the Vorkosiverse there'd be a
great way to commit a perfect crime, or at least to get away with one.
When the police are closing in on you, you make your will, stage your
death, then come back... as your own clone!  Maybe have a spot of
plastic surgery while you're 'dead', to make yourself look a bit younger.
In your will you left all your possessions to your own clone. So you
just bounce back into town, have a good story to explain the cloning
(if your parents are conveniently dead then it was their idea, of course.)
And there you are, back in your own life again. And free of any legal
embarrassments.

From wawenri at msn.com  Sat Apr  2 14:23:22 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 13:23:22 +0000
Subject: [LMB] The Perfect Crime
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB384402B0911E234A98CDE529CEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1648897201.25846.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384402B0911E234A98CDE529CEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB4847233A3F324FB2D5CFD8CDB4E39@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

Of course, you would have to find a totally corrupt revival/cloning facility that you could trust, probably on Jackson's Whole.
Since trustworthy and corrupt are contradictory, it would likely be very expensive.

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.

________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 6:54:28 AM
To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: [LMB] The Perfect Crime



Gwynne: I was just speculating... in the Vorkosiverse there'd be a
great way to commit a perfect crime, or at least to get away with one.
When the police are closing in on you, you make your will, stage your
death, then come back... as your own clone!  Maybe have a spot of
plastic surgery while you're 'dead', to make yourself look a bit younger.
In your will you left all your possessions to your own clone. So you
just bounce back into town, have a good story to explain the cloning
(if your parents are conveniently dead then it was their idea, of course.)
And there you are, back in your own life again. And free of any legal
embarrassments.
--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
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From rgmolpus at flash.net  Sat Apr  2 15:48:28 2022
From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 14:48:28 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] The Perfect Crime
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB384402B0911E234A98CDE529CEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1648897201.25846.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384402B0911E234A98CDE529CEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <823848845.767769.1648910908024@mail.yahoo.com>

 You'd better have commissioned the 'clone' well before the crime; the police will be checking when - if not where - the clone was gestated.? 
? 
Clones don't grow and mature fast, so there'd be a paper trail of it's existence, even from Jackson's Whole.


    On Saturday, April 2, 2022, 07:54:45 AM CDT, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:  
 
 

Gwynne: I was just speculating... in the Vorkosiverse there'd be a
great way to commit a perfect crime, or at least to get away with one.
When the police are closing in on you, you make your will, stage your
death, then come back... as your own clone!? Maybe have a spot of
plastic surgery while you're 'dead', to make yourself look a bit younger.
In your will you left all your possessions to your own clone. So you
just bounce back into town, have a good story to explain the cloning
(if your parents are conveniently dead then it was their idea, of course.)
And there you are, back in your own life again. And free of any legal
embarrassments.
-- 
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
  

From wawenri at msn.com  Sat Apr  2 16:04:13 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 15:04:13 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Energy Storage
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB484702F53B3FE4B32D310FD8B4E39@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

Among all of the fantastic new biological and physical technologies that have been developed in the vorkoverse the incredible advances in energy storage receive little mention. Stunners and plasma arcs have enough energy stored in their power units (that can fit in the handle) to make a reasonably large explosion. (See Shards and Memory). A battery for the unit Miles gave to Silvy Vale would run the home station and a bunch of laptops for six months.
The most energy dense SF storage I have heard of is Heinlein's Shipstones. I've wondered what would happen if one were dumped into salt water.
Question for the list: What would happen if a perfect storage battery (no internal losses) was shorted out by a perfect super conductor (zero resistance)?

William A Wenrich
A sinner utterly dependent on the grace of God.




From lmb at matija.com  Sat Apr  2 16:15:14 2022
From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 17:15:14 +0200
Subject: [LMB] The Perfect Crime
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB384402B0911E234A98CDE529CEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1648897201.25846.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384402B0911E234A98CDE529CEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <67a42bb7-a92c-3ef7-75e3-c2e0e0319688@matija.com>

On 02/04/2022 14:54, Gwynne Powell wrote:
> Gwynne: I was just speculating... in the Vorkosiverse there'd be a
> great way to commit a perfect crime, or at least to get away with one.
> When the police are closing in on you, you make your will, stage your
> death, then come back... as your own clone!  Maybe have a spot of
> plastic surgery while you're 'dead', to make yourself look a bit younger.
> In your will you left all your possessions to your own clone. So you
> just bounce back into town, have a good story to explain the cloning
> (if your parents are conveniently dead then it was their idea, of course.)
> And there you are, back in your own life again. And free of any legal
> embarrassments.
How would the "clone" get an alibi for the time of the murder?

From lmb at matija.com  Sat Apr  2 16:24:29 2022
From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 17:24:29 +0200
Subject: [LMB] Energy Storage
In-Reply-To: <CO3PR18MB484702F53B3FE4B32D310FD8B4E39@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CO3PR18MB484702F53B3FE4B32D310FD8B4E39@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <3b4bdc2d-4a04-ce67-806c-265e75b51a43@matija.com>

On 02/04/2022 17:04, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote:
> Question for the list: What would happen if a perfect storage battery (no internal losses) was shorted out by a perfect super conductor (zero resistance)?

An infinite strength magnetic field. To get a boom you need heating that 
comes from resistance of in the "short".

Of course, infinitely strong magnetic field would quickly attract things 
and spagettify them (tearing electrons from protons, possibly even 
breaking up neutrons, since the field strength is infinite), so I guess 
you'd probably still get a big ba-da-boom.



From baur at chello.at  Sat Apr  2 16:25:11 2022
From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 17:25:11 +0200
Subject: [LMB] Fwd:  Energy Storage
In-Reply-To: <789c7b00-c738-5976-39ef-9d30bbbb07c3@chello.at>
References: <789c7b00-c738-5976-39ef-9d30bbbb07c3@chello.at>
Message-ID: <d1364b4f-2654-af38-5cb9-1d57046ce9b5@chello.at>

Am 02.04.2022 um 17:04 schrieb WILLIAM A WENRICH:
> Among all of the fantastic new biological and physical technologies that have been developed in the vorkoverse the incredible advances in energy storage receive little mention. Stunners and plasma arcs have enough energy stored in their power units (that can fit in the handle) to make a reasonably large explosion. (See Shards and Memory). A battery for the unit Miles gave to Silvy Vale would run the home station and a bunch of laptops for six months.
> The most energy dense SF storage I have heard of is Heinlein's Shipstones. I've wondered what would happen if one were dumped into salt water.
> Question for the list: What would happen if a perfect storage battery (no internal losses) was shorted out by a perfect super conductor (zero resistance)?

kaboom ..

super conductors have a maximum current they can handle - at a minimum 
you get a superconductor quench

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SOUJP5dFEg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_magnet#Magnet_quench

at worst the SC looses superconductivity and blows up due to the current ..

servus

markus


> William A Wenrich
> A sinner utterly dependent on the grace of God.
> 
> 
> 

From proto at panix.com  Sat Apr  2 17:09:07 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 12:09:07 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Energy Storage
In-Reply-To: <CO3PR18MB484702F53B3FE4B32D310FD8B4E39@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CO3PR18MB484702F53B3FE4B32D310FD8B4E39@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <96055BB0-46C9-43D3-8B00-84A41267BE8C@panix.com>


This is tantamount to the irresistible force and the immovable object debate.

> On Apr 2, 2022, at 11:04 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Question for the list: What would happen if a perfect storage battery (no internal losses) was shorted out by a perfect super conductor (zero resistance)?
> 
This is tantamount to the irresistible force and the immovable object debate.

> William A Wenrich
> A sinner utterly dependent on the grace of God.

?
MD. MS. in Law Robert Lustig ?If there?s a label on the food, it?s a warning 
label. That means it has been processed. Real food doesn?t need a label.?







From dbernat at gol.com  Sat Apr  2 17:18:52 2022
From: dbernat at gol.com (dbernat)
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2022 01:18:52 +0900
Subject: [LMB] The Perfect Crime
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB384402B0911E234A98CDE529CEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1648897201.25846.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384402B0911E234A98CDE529CEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <216ff0f8e7c3bcd7077ff33633ef905c@gol.com>

Gwynne Powell wrote:

> Gwynne: I was just speculating... in the Vorkosiverse there'd be a
> great way to commit a perfect crime, or at least to get away with one.
> When the police are closing in on you, you make your will, stage your
> death, then come back... as your own clone!  Maybe have a spot of
> plastic surgery while you're 'dead', to make yourself look a bit 
> younger.
> In your will you left all your possessions to your own clone. So you
> just bounce back into town, have a good story to explain the cloning
> (if your parents are conveniently dead then it was their idea, of 
> course.)
> And there you are, back in your own life again. And free of any legal
> embarrassments.

This sounds like "To Live Forever" by Jack Vance.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  2 18:39:57 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 17:39:57 +0000
Subject: [LMB] The Perfect Crime
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1711.1648913078.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1711.1648913078.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844E603241D6514403327D1CEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com>

Of course, you would have to find a totally corrupt revival/cloning facility that you could trust, probably on Jackson's Whole.
Since trustworthy and corrupt are contradictory, it would likely be very expensive.
William A Wenrich

Gwynne: You don't have to specify which lab the 'clone' is from;
you've made it clear in your will that the clone exists and that you have
known about it for some time. Then you 'die', and reappear as the clone...
and nobody can deny it. It would work.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  2 18:42:18 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 17:42:18 +0000
Subject: [LMB] The Perfect Crime
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1711.1648913078.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1711.1648913078.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38448C14126ABEF81F32257BCEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Richard Molpus <rgmolpus at flash.net>

 You'd better have commissioned the 'clone' well before the crime; the police will be checking when - if not where - the clone was gestated.?
Clones don't grow and mature fast, so there'd be a paper trail of it's existence, even from Jackson's Whole.f

Gwynne: You just say that you found the information among your parents'
files after they died. Perhaps they'd intended it as a spare parts bank for you.
And if more questions are asked, I'm sure that there's plenty of Houses on JW
that would provide all the paperwork you needed, for a reasonable fee.

From smith.martin.music at gmail.com  Sat Apr  2 18:47:30 2022
From: smith.martin.music at gmail.com (Martin Smith )
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 18:47:30 +0100
Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixie
In-Reply-To: <609191730.1288383.1648890450179@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <609191730.1288383.1648890450179.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <609191730.1288383.1648890450179@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000701d846b9$b9d381d0$2d7a8570$@gmail.com>

This Northern Hemisphere-ite thanks you most heartily for my treat. I enjoyed it hugely - particularly the Vorkosigan wine - and did my best not to snicker at the dejected figure of Alexei Vormoncrief in the corner.

Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> On Behalf Of M. Haller Yamada via Lois-Bujold
Sent: 02 April 2022 10:08
To: Discussion of the Works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Cc: M. Haller Yamada <thefabmadamem at yahoo.com>
Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixie

It's April 2, and we're wishing a very happy birthday to Martin Smith today!

In the northern hemisphere, April Showers bring May Flowers (like tulips and daffodils), and I assume it's very similar for the southern hemisphere, in that April Showers bring dahlias and chrysanthemums? 

Anyway, we're bringing Martin to the showers in Kyril Island! He gets a nice hot soak and a look at the plumbing. The towels are rough like sandpaper, but dinner in the mess hall afterwards is very entertaining. Martin is given a seat with the Fun Group, who regale him with funny tales of woe and mishaps. The wine with dinner is an excellent vintage -- from Vorkosigan vinyards. The Kyril Island Regulars are just so happy to see a new face, and the evening goes by quickly until it devolves into singing. Still singing, Martin is loaded into his ride home, and tucked in with a real Imperial Service fluffy travel blanky. 

Hope your birthday brings fun and good memories!

--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to smith.martin.music at gmail.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold



From howard at brazee.net  Sat Apr  2 19:29:19 2022
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 12:29:19 -0600
Subject: [LMB] The Perfect Crime
In-Reply-To: <67a42bb7-a92c-3ef7-75e3-c2e0e0319688@matija.com>
References: <mailman.1.1648897201.25846.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384402B0911E234A98CDE529CEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <67a42bb7-a92c-3ef7-75e3-c2e0e0319688@matija.com>
Message-ID: <5754C6BA-563C-45DE-92E0-C20CFB84484D@brazee.net>



> 
>> Gwynne: I was just speculating... in the Vorkosiverse there'd be a
>> great way to commit a perfect crime, or at least to get away with one.
>> When the police are closing in on you, you make your will, stage your
>> death, then come back... as your own clone! Maybe have a spot of
>> plastic surgery while you're 'dead', to make yourself look a bit younger.
>> In your will you left all your possessions to your own clone. So you
>> just bounce back into town, have a good story to explain the cloning
>> (if your parents are conveniently dead then it was their idea, of course.)
>> And there you are, back in your own life again. And free of any legal
>> embarrassments.

Scalzi used this.  The character didn?t have all of his worldly scars though.

From huntkc at gmail.com  Sat Apr  2 19:57:01 2022
From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 14:57:01 -0400
Subject: [LMB] The Perfect Crime
In-Reply-To: <67a42bb7-a92c-3ef7-75e3-c2e0e0319688@matija.com>
References: <mailman.1.1648897201.25846.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384402B0911E234A98CDE529CEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <67a42bb7-a92c-3ef7-75e3-c2e0e0319688@matija.com>
Message-ID: <CABsO85mYi1JvX6Uz29iSkEZnnXdOiTeJUbM+oysGRxzqB+Kz_w@mail.gmail.com>

On 02/04/2022 14:54, Gwynne Powell wrote:
> Gwynne: I was just speculating... in the Vorkosiverse there'd be a
> great way to commit a perfect crime, or at least to get away with one.
> When the police are closing in on you, you make your will, stage your
> death, then come back... as your own clone!  Maybe have a spot of
> plastic surgery while you're 'dead', to make yourself look a bit younger.
> In your will you left all your possessions to your own clone. So you
> just bounce back into town, have a good story to explain the cloning
> (if your parents are conveniently dead then it was their idea, of course.)
> And there you are, back in your own life again. And free of any legal
> embarrassments.

Well.... On the science side of this we have this:
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25371014
https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-02/dna-twins-rape/
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/01/science/twins-dna-crime-paternity.html

Which is a lot of print basically saying that yes, it is possible to tell
identical twins apart genetically,
but it's pretty expensive because it requires extremely detailed
examination of genetic code.

Which is to say that it could work as a story basis so long as the crime
involved doesn't get so
much interest from the police and public that they're willing to drag out
the fancier and more expensive
genetic tests.

Karen

From mathews55 at msn.com  Sat Apr  2 23:05:46 2022
From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 22:05:46 +0000
Subject: [LMB] The Perfect Crime
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844E603241D6514403327D1CEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1711.1648913078.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E603241D6514403327D1CEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <BY5PR04MB68349517DE8DC5C2EED11B99B4E39@BY5PR04MB6834.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

One of the oldest plots in s/fand fantasy concerning immortals or other long-lived people (or vampires) is for them to fake their deaths and reappear as a long-lost child and heir.
________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 11:39 AM
To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: [LMB] The Perfect Crime

From: WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com>

Of course, you would have to find a totally corrupt revival/cloning facility that you could trust, probably on Jackson's Whole.
Since trustworthy and corrupt are contradictory, it would likely be very expensive.
William A Wenrich

Gwynne: You don't have to specify which lab the 'clone' is from;
you've made it clear in your will that the clone exists and that you have
known about it for some time. Then you 'die', and reappear as the clone...
and nobody can deny it. It would work.
--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold

From howard at brazee.net  Sun Apr  3 01:48:27 2022
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 18:48:27 -0600
Subject: [LMB] The Perfect Crime
In-Reply-To: <BY5PR04MB68349517DE8DC5C2EED11B99B4E39@BY5PR04MB6834.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.1711.1648913078.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E603241D6514403327D1CEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <BY5PR04MB68349517DE8DC5C2EED11B99B4E39@BY5PR04MB6834.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <EB637094-5EB7-4F23-AC8F-21C9C7FBDA81@brazee.net>



> On Apr 2, 2022, at 4:05 PM, Pat Mathews <mathews55 at msn.com> wrote:
> 
> One of the oldest plots in s/fand fantasy concerning immortals or other long-lived people (or vampires) is for them to fake their deaths and reappear as a long-lost child and heir.


If someone has power enough there are some interesting alternatives.

Let?s say you can buy 10 years of health from someone, whether a clone or via magic.   Lots of people will be willing to trade their 25 year-old-body for a 35-year-old-body if the price was right.

From kdschoen1 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 01:59:21 2022
From: kdschoen1 at gmail.com (Kenton Schoen)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 20:59:21 -0400
Subject: [LMB] The Perfect Crime
In-Reply-To: <CABsO85mYi1JvX6Uz29iSkEZnnXdOiTeJUbM+oysGRxzqB+Kz_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1648897201.25846.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384402B0911E234A98CDE529CEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <67a42bb7-a92c-3ef7-75e3-c2e0e0319688@matija.com>
 <CABsO85mYi1JvX6Uz29iSkEZnnXdOiTeJUbM+oysGRxzqB+Kz_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMqW7=4Lz5ZDK_wBLgE_n3m5F256R2gT4+rw_+r-EC6tH_+JKA@mail.gmail.com>

My understanding was that identical twins, "nature's clones", did not have
identical fingerprints.

Kenton
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022, 2:57 PM Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 02/04/2022 14:54, Gwynne Powell wrote:
> > Gwynne: I was just speculating... in the Vorkosiverse there'd be a
> > great way to commit a perfect crime, or at least to get away with one.
> > When the police are closing in on you, you make your will, stage your
> > death, then come back... as your own clone!  Maybe have a spot of
> > plastic surgery while you're 'dead', to make yourself look a bit younger.
> > In your will you left all your possessions to your own clone. So you
> > just bounce back into town, have a good story to explain the cloning
> > (if your parents are conveniently dead then it was their idea, of
> course.)
> > And there you are, back in your own life again. And free of any legal
> > embarrassments.
>
> Well.... On the science side of this we have this:
> https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25371014
> https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-02/dna-twins-rape/
> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/01/science/twins-dna-crime-paternity.html
>
> Which is a lot of print basically saying that yes, it is possible to tell
> identical twins apart genetically,
> but it's pretty expensive because it requires extremely detailed
> examination of genetic code.
>
> Which is to say that it could work as a story basis so long as the crime
> involved doesn't get so
> much interest from the police and public that they're willing to drag out
> the fancier and more expensive
> genetic tests.
>
> Karen
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kdschoen1 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From pouncer at aol.com  Sun Apr  3 02:18:14 2022
From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 20:18:14 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Vorvolk in The Second Interval
References: <71f2fba5-5adc-d613-d29d-9ba7a440e96b.ref@aol.com>
Message-ID: <71f2fba5-5adc-d613-d29d-9ba7a440e96b@aol.com>


This little bit is less than a third the length of the
first -- which is to say, barely two pages long.

Illyan is back, cautiously. Miles waits him out,
waiting for Illyan to pick up the discussion, torture,
whatever.  Illyan does bend first.

"My ... apologies Lord Vorkosigan."

The naming is still significant. Illyan not Simon.
Here, with regard to proof by name's word, it's Lord
Vorkosigan. The rank provokes the next exchange too.

Have you considered the necessity to APPEAR honest?

"As my father's son -- no."

Much later in a different book we get a scene about
honor and reputation, but this one pre-echoes that one.

Count Vorvolk has seized upon wild cost overruns in
simple personnel pickups.  The first, two years ago, on
Jackson's Whole. They -- Vorvolk and Aral's rivals --
want to nail Miles.  Simon is attempting to confiscate
the hammer. Dammit.

The interesting bit, in light of _Memory_ exploration
of the Barrayaran office of auditor, is how Illyan
considers Vorvolk.

"Financial oversight audits by untouchable Vor bores
are not my idea of amusement. My one hope is to tire
him out and make him go away."

Stalling and diversion didn't work for Haroche, on
Miles.  Vorvolk would seem to be a bit flimsier in the
fiber department. Or maybe Simon was better at stalling
than Haroche would become.

Interesting that the only aspect of the investigation,
here, is financial oversight. Structural engineering
failures, for instance, do not figure in.

Anyhow, Miles had left a bunch of expensive gear behind
while he bugged out of a not-quite-bungled op.  The
tale follows.

It's not entirely clear how hearing Taura's tale gives
Illyan hammer-confiscation abilities, but what DO we
expect from two pages?

Thoughts?



-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


From sylviamcivers at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 03:08:36 2022
From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 22:08:36 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Memory & tixie
In-Reply-To: <CAMqW7=59K6CdDT71YaaPPgPp5=YuR8+6Y1EN=tyAfH5sf7mSAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1648724401.31440.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844BD034D5D1723CE1D313FCEE19@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAMqW7=59K6CdDT71YaaPPgPp5=YuR8+6Y1EN=tyAfH5sf7mSAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD6Rr-wSEqjnjBGW+VQ+c_Rp_FDVm74+DN_2=1Rqr5cEX9Hsbw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 1:25 AM Kenton Schoen <kdschoen1 at gmail.com> wrote:

> We have yet to do a first reading of "Knot of Shadows", haven't we?
>
> Kenton
>


The book is in audio or kindle but not paper format.  I have, in fact, not
done a first reading of the story.
Does anyone know if it will be published in paper?

From dmb0317 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 03:25:48 2022
From: dmb0317 at gmail.com (David Bowen)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 19:25:48 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Memory & tixie
In-Reply-To: <CAD6Rr-wSEqjnjBGW+VQ+c_Rp_FDVm74+DN_2=1Rqr5cEX9Hsbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1648724401.31440.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844BD034D5D1723CE1D313FCEE19@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAMqW7=59K6CdDT71YaaPPgPp5=YuR8+6Y1EN=tyAfH5sf7mSAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD6Rr-wSEqjnjBGW+VQ+c_Rp_FDVm74+DN_2=1Rqr5cEX9Hsbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANO09fgm-x3oBwdjmMMhojOGLcaBbQyzBSq+Fb4o-5WCkrOgnw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 7:08 PM Sylvia McIvers <sylviamcivers at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> The book is in audio or kindle but not paper format.  I have, in fact, not
> done a first reading of the story.
> Does anyone know if it will be published in paper?
>

I would assume it will follow the pattern of the other Penric books with
Subterranean Press doing the first paper printing and Baen doing an omnibus
collection of three after Subterranean's rights expire.

David Bowen

From sylviamcivers at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 03:53:14 2022
From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 22:53:14 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Decision time
In-Reply-To: <em36c06f11-787f-43bc-b571-8cf13700f3bd@desktop-ckcgfo5>
References: <mailman.1.1648810801.3341.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38445EFD9B748F873A4CCB79CEE09@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
 <em36c06f11-787f-43bc-b571-8cf13700f3bd@desktop-ckcgfo5>
Message-ID: <CAD6Rr-yAhcwNLXfvEHyhP1tDeA17OqMvvmQ9XECRUKAGVcrhYw@mail.gmail.com>

> And THANK YOU for leading these!!!
>
> Harvey
>

Yes, that.
Sylvia

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  3 10:33:11 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 09:33:11 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Lord Auditor Count Vorvolk
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1720.1648952767.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1720.1648952767.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844BBF6A3F3D0C3AECA682DCEE29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Pouncer <pouncer at aol.com>


Gwynne: What really strikes me about these little segments is how
informal they are. Maybe this is because it's not a military situation,
it's motivated by politics. So it's not a superior officer briefing on of
his men, it's two men discussing how to deal with a political problem.
(Also, of course, Miles is in pain and drugged out of his mind, so it's
not really the right time to expect full military formality.)

I love the description of Simon. For me, he's Martin Freeman.

And at no time is there any doubt from Simon. He knows that Miles
would never fiddle the books; well, he knows that money isn't one
of Miles's goals. He needs money to pay for the Dendarii, but that's
all about getting what he needs to do the job. Miles is actually
fairly hopeless with money, he's always had enough for whatever he
wanted, and it doesn't really occur to him to do much more with it.
(Mark sees money totally differently; and he's brilliant at using it and
making it grow.)

I love "... Your reports are, as usual, masterpieces of understatement
and misdirection...."  When you see statements like that... Simon
tolerated ten years of Miles shading things in his reports, angling them
to make the Dendarii look good, editing for effect and to emphasise
the things he wanted to push, or hide what he didn't... and after ten
years he crossed a line in his reports, but he'd been sailing close to
it for a decade, with permission - almost encouragement. Yes it was
wrong, but it wasn't a huge step from his normal level.


From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  3 11:19:04 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 10:19:04 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Subject:  Vorvolk in The Second Interval
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1720.1648952767.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1720.1648952767.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384406186FC4C643E4DBA373CEE29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Pouncer <pouncer at aol.com>


Gwynne: I like it that Miles refers to leaving half a load of expensive
weaponry behind, to save a scientist and the target of their mission.
Because later that scientist is vital when Miles is solving Haroche's
attempted takeover of ImpSec. And a bit later, Taura saves Ekaterin's
life - thus also saving Miles, who goes on to stop a galactic war.

So the cost of that mission is paid back a hundredfold.

From kdschoen1 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 14:09:37 2022
From: kdschoen1 at gmail.com (Kenton Schoen)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 09:09:37 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Lord Auditor Count Vorvolk
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844BBF6A3F3D0C3AECA682DCEE29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1720.1648952767.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844BBF6A3F3D0C3AECA682DCEE29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAMqW7=4AgP9fU7jgzSyO1ZT1_GQ2dn0K4_7Zr7+LHJYgac4Ymw@mail.gmail.com>

If he was an Imperial Auditor, I would think that he, (or another Auditor,
with the necessary security clearances), could and would read Miles'
reports to Illyan.  Whether he could read through the pro Dendarii bias is
a different question.  Maybe Illyan has been teaching Miles report writing
with just such a possible examination in mind.

Kenton

On Sun, Apr 3, 2022, 5:33 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: Pouncer <pouncer at aol.com>
>
>
> Gwynne: What really strikes me about these little segments is how
> informal they are. Maybe this is because it's not a military situation,
> it's motivated by politics. So it's not a superior officer briefing on of
> his men, it's two men discussing how to deal with a political problem.
> (Also, of course, Miles is in pain and drugged out of his mind, so it's
> not really the right time to expect full military formality.)
>
> I love the description of Simon. For me, he's Martin Freeman.
>
> And at no time is there any doubt from Simon. He knows that Miles
> would never fiddle the books; well, he knows that money isn't one
> of Miles's goals. He needs money to pay for the Dendarii, but that's
> all about getting what he needs to do the job. Miles is actually
> fairly hopeless with money, he's always had enough for whatever he
> wanted, and it doesn't really occur to him to do much more with it.
> (Mark sees money totally differently; and he's brilliant at using it and
> making it grow.)
>
> I love "... Your reports are, as usual, masterpieces of understatement
> and misdirection...."  When you see statements like that... Simon
> tolerated ten years of Miles shading things in his reports, angling them
> to make the Dendarii look good, editing for effect and to emphasise
> the things he wanted to push, or hide what he didn't... and after ten
> years he crossed a line in his reports, but he'd been sailing close to
> it for a decade, with permission - almost encouragement. Yes it was
> wrong, but it wasn't a huge step from his normal level.
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kdschoen1 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From wawenri at msn.com  Sun Apr  3 14:24:22 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 13:24:22 +0000
Subject: [LMB] The Perfect Crime
In-Reply-To: <CAMqW7=4Lz5ZDK_wBLgE_n3m5F256R2gT4+rw_+r-EC6tH_+JKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1648897201.25846.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384402B0911E234A98CDE529CEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <67a42bb7-a92c-3ef7-75e3-c2e0e0319688@matija.com>
 <CABsO85mYi1JvX6Uz29iSkEZnnXdOiTeJUbM+oysGRxzqB+Kz_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMqW7=4Lz5ZDK_wBLgE_n3m5F256R2gT4+rw_+r-EC6tH_+JKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB48478B4F7F88A8C430FCBE3DB4E29@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

They don?t. Also, they don?t have the same gene expressions. Gene expressions are not the same throughout the body and change. They aren?t very useful for identification.

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.

________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Kenton Schoen <kdschoen1 at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 6:59:21 PM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [LMB] The Perfect Crime

My understanding was that identical twins, "nature's clones", did not have
identical fingerprints.

Kenton
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022, 2:57 PM Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 02/04/2022 14:54, Gwynne Powell wrote:
> > Gwynne: I was just speculating... in the Vorkosiverse there'd be a
> > great way to commit a perfect crime, or at least to get away with one.
> > When the police are closing in on you, you make your will, stage your
> > death, then come back... as your own clone!  Maybe have a spot of
> > plastic surgery while you're 'dead', to make yourself look a bit younger.
> > In your will you left all your possessions to your own clone. So you
> > just bounce back into town, have a good story to explain the cloning
> > (if your parents are conveniently dead then it was their idea, of
> course.)
> > And there you are, back in your own life again. And free of any legal
> > embarrassments.
>
> Well.... On the science side of this we have this:
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fmagazine-25371014&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cdfe3851401f94d0fdd1308da150d3f3a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637845443882331872%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=LrhiufV0%2BwIO1YNu0y6VXbw4klUkPHY5aEtXv6bpvtc%3D&amp;reserved=0
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.popsci.com%2Fscience%2Farticle%2F2013-02%2Fdna-twins-rape%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cdfe3851401f94d0fdd1308da150d3f3a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637845443882331872%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=D3Z2jPxaaU4suCuqG5dZRC0mEfNm%2F5S5paZXp%2BCgKV4%3D&amp;reserved=0
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2019%2F03%2F01%2Fscience%2Ftwins-dna-crime-paternity.html&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cdfe3851401f94d0fdd1308da150d3f3a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637845443882331872%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=LBevZb7ePe9fdNYFxt0qgsmSkvtQFag7mOzmMomyBS8%3D&amp;reserved=0
>
> Which is a lot of print basically saying that yes, it is possible to tell
> identical twins apart genetically,
> but it's pretty expensive because it requires extremely detailed
> examination of genetic code.
>
> Which is to say that it could work as a story basis so long as the crime
> involved doesn't get so
> much interest from the police and public that they're willing to drag out
> the fancier and more expensive
> genetic tests.
>
> Karen
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kdschoen1 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cdfe3851401f94d0fdd1308da150d3f3a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637845443882331872%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=i9EFjlYkimtkLTgjUVAqUblVVPWEsjtd4tUW3y8QVHE%3D&amp;reserved=0
>
--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cdfe3851401f94d0fdd1308da150d3f3a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637845443882331872%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=i9EFjlYkimtkLTgjUVAqUblVVPWEsjtd4tUW3y8QVHE%3D&amp;reserved=0

From huntkc at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 14:27:49 2022
From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 09:27:49 -0400
Subject: [LMB] The Perfect Crime
In-Reply-To: <CO3PR18MB48478B4F7F88A8C430FCBE3DB4E29@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.1.1648897201.25846.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384402B0911E234A98CDE529CEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <67a42bb7-a92c-3ef7-75e3-c2e0e0319688@matija.com>
 <CABsO85mYi1JvX6Uz29iSkEZnnXdOiTeJUbM+oysGRxzqB+Kz_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMqW7=4Lz5ZDK_wBLgE_n3m5F256R2gT4+rw_+r-EC6tH_+JKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CO3PR18MB48478B4F7F88A8C430FCBE3DB4E29@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CABsO85nWotR_-KVBDWNfrkuv18zSOF_onZ7EnEom_US5i3Qw-g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 3, 2022 at 9:24 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com> wrote:

> They don?t. Also, they don?t have the same gene expressions. Gene
> expressions are not the same throughout the body and change. They aren?t
> very useful for identification.
>
> William A Wenrich
>
>   *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of
> Kenton Schoen <kdschoen1 at gmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 2, 2022 6:59:21 PM
> To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <
> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [LMB] The Perfect Crime
>
> My understanding was that identical twins, "nature's clones", did not have
> identical fingerprints.
>

You could take my strategy towards this - my fingerprints are only barely
readable by those fingerprint-reading devices.

It took multiple tries to get a reading the machine was willing to store,
then I couldn't match the stored reading afterwards.

Karen

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  3 15:04:56 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 14:04:56 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1648983601.17082.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1648983601.17082.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844E42CF4383DFF8B9FD01FCEE29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



So, first we see Miles going courting. Of course he's in the huge
Vorkosigan armour-plated behemoth. But instead of sitting in
the back seat in lordly splendour, he's in the front seat with Pym.
(Why the biggest car they have? Why not a nice neat smaller
vehicle - it'd cope better with the terrible traffic.)

Of course Pym knows what's going on, and he's very hopeful
about it all.  There's no privacy in Miles's life.

I have to say; the image of that little figure, in his best suit
and clutching flowers, hesitating at the front door - it's heart-
wrenching.

I love the Professors Vorthys; they didn't move somewhere
more high-class when he became an Auditor, because they
just couldn't face moving all the books. Apart from his
knowledge and ability, Georg is perfect for an Auditor, because
he doesn't crave more money, more power, or a more lavish
lifestyle. (I wonder if you could bribe him with books?)

Miles is babbling. The Professora, who has a wonderful time
watching this whole game play out (and who's far more aware
of what's going on than the actual participants) welcomes him.
They were all at Tien's funeral (Miles was brave to go to that,
it can't have been easy for anyone.)

Ekaterin. Wearing very determined widow's weeds, but pleased
to see Miles all the same. The Professora is too busy to sit with
them; well, you don't have to chaperone married women. Or widows.

Ekaterin is planning her university courses, then she'll get a job
until they start. Good opening for Miles - although he's distracted
by the sight of that poor plant that he rescued on Komarr. Then he
launches into his offer: build him a garden.

(Since they own the empty block beside Vorkosigan House, and
they can't build on it, why didn't they just put a wall around it and
make it part of the grounds of Vorkosigan House? Miles's family
don't focus much on practicalities. Or on changing things.)  It is
actually a good idea to make the waste land look a bit nicer, and
to make a proper Barrayaran garden (imagine if it becomes a
tourist destination; ImpSec will have kittens.)

Again, it's so wrings the heartstrings to see Miles carefully
laying his trap, to entice her in, when anyone else can see that
she's already interested in him. (They're perfect for each other,
they have the same level of romantic incompetence.)

Ekaterin doesn't want to waste Miles's money. He hopes that
as Lady Vorkosigan she gets over that. (Apparently his idea
of wedded bliss is a wife who manages all the finances and
does all the shopping, and buying of other items. I suppose
Cordelia does that, and keeps Aral organised - I'm just trying
to imagine it.)

Miles already knows that Nikki is part of the deal. And having
Nikki cured has lifted a massive worry - Ekaterin's life is so
much better without Tien (and that's sad. A terrible epitaph.
Although he earned it.)

Miles is already getting paranoid about rivals. Ekaterin is
loudly against the idea of marrying again. Miles intends to
weasel through her defences.

Miles is quivering with excitement as he goes home,
planning a perfect lunch, the gardens have to be given an
extra going-over, wine or tea, a crew through to give the
House an extra clean... or would it be better to look like
a helpless bachelor....

Pym is the voice of reason. And anyway, he'd never allow
a guest to see the place messy and grimy. Armsmen have
their pride.

Miles is on forward planning: Pym is to always drive Ekaterin
or Nikki, Miles won't trust himself and his disorder, not with
them.

We get a lovely glimpse of Pym's life: he was a senior sargeant
in ImpSec, doing security at the Residence (in other words, one
of the best around.) She was a clerk in the archives. Pym
decided it was time to marry and settle down, after she told
him so. When he'd done his twenty he didn't fancy upsetting the
family with a posting anywhere else, so Simon nudged him
towards being a Vorkosigan armsman (you can't say that it's
been a dull job, that's for sure.)

Miles asks Pym not to gossip about Ekaterin, and is firmly
squelched. Then he explains that he's not courting her, which
Pym... accepts. With a smile.

Part 2 of this chapter tomorrow.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sun Apr  3 15:19:10 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 14:19:10 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1648983601.17082.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1648983601.17082.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384447B6A8421C315FC631C6CEE29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



So, we're off again. Miles is frantically planning, and completely
unaware of Ekaterin's interest in him (to be fair, she's not really
aware either. They suit each other so well.)

Miles doesn't try to keep anything secret from Pym, of course.
He's had no privacy in his life; as a child with high medical needs,
he grew up with no physical privacy, and with Bothari shadowing
him all the time - not much of any other kind as well. (In Cetaganda
we see Ivan looking after Miles, dealing with his leg braces and so
on, and Miles doesn't even think about it. Everyone around him is
part of his support team, that's his life.) So of course his courtship
is going to happen in semi-public.

And I have to say...Pym. He's glorious. He can deal with anything
without turning a hair.

Another favourite is the Professora. She's going to have fun watching
the show.

And that house - bright tiles inside and out, nice garden out the back,
plenty of books everywhere... I want to live in that house.

From pouncer at aol.com  Sun Apr  3 15:40:26 2022
From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 09:40:26 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Bujold / Penric recommendation in unusual place
References: <1a85b979-fa5d-493a-07d5-843f9da58e53.ref@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1a85b979-fa5d-493a-07d5-843f9da58e53@aol.com>

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/398424.php

Ace's place is hard anti-just-about-everything. Consider this a trigger 
warning.  On the other hand, the weekly Sunday library threads are a 
joy, if only for the "photo album" of beautiful rooms full of books,
books, and more books.

The co-blogger must be among the soi-disant "morons" because he
confesses he has not read any Bujold.  Yet.  Seems likely to
change soon.


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


From pouncer at aol.com  Sun Apr  3 16:21:06 2022
From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 10:21:06 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Lord Auditor Count Vorvolk
References: <99aee29a-9dbf-c8f4-5f72-a6a91eb56915.ref@aol.com>
Message-ID: <99aee29a-9dbf-c8f4-5f72-a6a91eb56915@aol.com>

Gwynne:

 > [Simon] knows that Miles would never fiddle the books; well, he
 > knows that money isn't one of Miles's goals.

Good refinement on this understanding of Miles's morals.

Because, as noted,  Miles had just diverted funds from Barrayar's
"equipment replacement" check right towards his new found clone.
Who promptly takes the money and runs.

It's also not unusual -- going back to the Hegen Hub, at least --
for Miles-the-mercenary to be paid AS a mercenary BY the local
oligarchs AS WELL as the Barrayaran Empire. It's not at all clear
that any of the extra money is paid back into Simon's black budget.
More likely, and at best, the double (triple, fourple) payments
merely reduce the load on the ImpSec purse.  As with the tragic
Vorberg rescue mission, "Illyan ought to like the accountant's
report. The Dendarii had not only kept costs under budget -- for a
change -- they had made a truly amazing profit.  Illyan ... had got
his courier officer retrieved effectively for free."   Although
Illyan had sent payment for the mission even before he could know
it was successful. Such faith.

Miles's somewhat elastic and uncertain grasp of how money works
is revealed in his discussions with the Dendarii accountant -- what
was it, Foscal? -- asking her to more or less move money around
really quick, to make virtual money. (Seems like a trick of
governments more than businesses, but what do I know?)

About Miles reports (and "interim reports" which might be
misinterpreted as a request for instructions...)

 > I love "... Your reports are, as usual, masterpieces of
 > understatement and misdirection...."  after ten years [Miles]
 > crossed a line in his reports, but he'd been sailing close to it
 > for a decade, with permission - almost encouragement.

This goes all the way to Gwynne's February recap of Memory Chapter
2, but Miles's "Vorberg" report was drafted, TWICE. And was
supplemented by another report from "the Blue Squad" -- apparently
one of two elements on the rescue.   Once, fairly honestly. And
then again. "I wouldn't be lying. I'd just be editing my report for
length."   Twenty minutes later, "It was downright artistic." and
"This could get me cashiered."

Knowing that, why did he send the short, false, version?  Three
reasons.  One, as noted, he's been getting away with it for a
decade. Second, Miles tells himself -- in a chronologically near
but emotionally distinct moment -- "You're pathologically incapable
of admitting defeat".  This in CHAPTER TWO, mind you. Well before
the whole "I own Vorkosigan Vashnoi introspection..." Third, he had
just lost Elena. I think Elena represented Barrayar to Miles in
much the same way Harra and dead infant Raina. Home is people, not
a place. So Elena (and Baz) leaving the Dendarii felt to him, in
that moment, as if Barrayar itself had abandoned him.  If his home
was not loyal to him, why should he be loyal to his home?

I think, too, that when Cordelia and others were betting that ex-
Lieutenant Vorkosigan would run away to become only and forever
Admiral Naismith of the Dendarii,  they were still unaware that
Elena had already left. The Dendarii were barely "home" without
her. Elli Quinn and Taura together were not enough.

ANYhow -- reports. Yes, masterpieces -- downright artistic.
Misdirection and understatement. Let's not forget passive voice.

No wonder Simon pays to keep a full time spy among the Dendarii.
Might be the same guy who, way back in Tau Verde, was the spy
assigned to keep track of Oser and Tung. Only Miles can report on
the top level policy decisions.  But at the tactical -- "weapons
malfunction my fat buttocks" -- level, there will always be and
have been parallel observations.

-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


From domelouann at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 17:39:09 2022
From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 11:39:09 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844E42CF4383DFF8B9FD01FCEE29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1648983601.17082.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E42CF4383DFF8B9FD01FCEE29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAGqU+dheE8zU0sg554bS2DY+tGFh7caGaZMU3OAMKPP+Mzh9pg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 3, 2022 at 9:05 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Miles is babbling. The Professora, who has a wonderful time
> watching this whole game play out (and who's far more aware
> of what's going on than the actual participants) welcomes him.
>

And Miles' "You're going to be around, aren't you?" in the middle of his
babble is clearly sincere. We don't see them interact much, but he likes
and respects the Professora. Also, while he wants Ekaterin to be All His
Own in the marital sense, he doesn't try to monopolize her time. Some guys
in the throes of first love would and do. (I personally suspect that Tien
was like that at first, and that a very young Ekaterin was charmed.)

Louann

From domelouann at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 17:45:44 2022
From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 11:45:44 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Bujold / Penric recommendation in unusual place
In-Reply-To: <1a85b979-fa5d-493a-07d5-843f9da58e53@aol.com>
References: <1a85b979-fa5d-493a-07d5-843f9da58e53.ref@aol.com>
 <1a85b979-fa5d-493a-07d5-843f9da58e53@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAGqU+dhGJ6LJDdRFNavChzXKjOd9f-tjh82ydomOpXdnvLGzXg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 3, 2022 at 9:40 AM Pouncer via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

> http://ace.mu.nu/archives/398424.php
>
> Ace's place is hard anti-just-about-everything. Consider this a trigger
> warning.  On the other hand, the weekly Sunday library threads are a
> joy, if only for the "photo album" of beautiful rooms full of books,
> books, and more books.
>

And the poster who writes about "Penric's Fox" is definitely sharp. He
(probably he) catches Bujold's pithy judgement on all *kinds *of things and
people in one brief sentence. To me, that's the pivot of the story. Thus:

At one point Penric asks the murderer, "You [did all this] to feel better?
Did it work?"

The world would be so much better if people knew to ask that question of
themselves.

Louann

From rgmolpus at flash.net  Sun Apr  3 17:49:48 2022
From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 16:49:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844E42CF4383DFF8B9FD01FCEE29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1648983601.17082.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E42CF4383DFF8B9FD01FCEE29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <907299110.930803.1649004588081@mail.yahoo.com>

 "Apart from his knowledge and ability, Georg is perfect for an Auditor, because
he doesn't crave more money, more power, or a more lavish lifestyle. (I wonder if you could bribe him with books?)"


You could bribe him with a? Bridgeport Series I - 9" x 49" 3HP Variable Speed Milling Machine, or a Clausing 6 foot lathe...
(I know what Engineers like...)

    On Sunday, April 3, 2022, 09:05:14 AM CDT, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:  
 
 
  

From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com  Sun Apr  3 19:42:48 2022
From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com)
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2022 18:42:48 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 - Comments
Message-ID: <e96ec347-ca23-2fbd-2326-095b0be51b46@mindspring.com>

And we're off! on another Gwynne-led adventure.? Yay!? I'm madly looking forward to it.? Thanks for starting this again, Gwynne!
?
Gwynne sayeth, "And that house - bright tiles inside and out, nice garden out the back,plenty of books everywhere... I want to live in that house."
?
I want to at least visit that house, and hang out in the back with Gwynne, enjoying snacks in the garden, and discussing All The Books.
?
Jerrie


From proto at panix.com  Sun Apr  3 20:23:14 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 15:23:14 -0400
Subject: [LMB] The Perfect Crime
In-Reply-To: <CABsO85mYi1JvX6Uz29iSkEZnnXdOiTeJUbM+oysGRxzqB+Kz_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1648897201.25846.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384402B0911E234A98CDE529CEE39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <67a42bb7-a92c-3ef7-75e3-c2e0e0319688@matija.com>
 <CABsO85mYi1JvX6Uz29iSkEZnnXdOiTeJUbM+oysGRxzqB+Kz_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D07F65FB-3B05-4C3E-917E-66073827888C@panix.com>



> On Apr 2, 2022, at 2:57 PM, Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Which is to say that it could work as a story basis so long as the crime
> involved doesn't get so
> much interest from the police and public that they're willing to drag out
> the fancier and more expensive
> genetic tests.
> 
> Karen

Given Nexus technology in Miles?s time our most expensive genetic tests would be routine.

	? 
?Of all the means to insure happiness throughout the whole life, by far the most important is the acquisition of friends.? 
~Epicurus

From wawenri at msn.com  Sun Apr  3 23:00:20 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 22:00:20 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB384447B6A8421C315FC631C6CEE29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1648983601.17082.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384447B6A8421C315FC631C6CEE29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB484710F0FADC57C332002269B4E29@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

La Professors new that there was a mutual attraction before she even met Miles.

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.

________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 3, 2022 8:19:10 AM
To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 - Comments



So, we're off again. Miles is frantically planning, and completely
unaware of Ekaterin's interest in him (to be fair, she's not really
aware either. They suit each other so well.)

Miles doesn't try to keep anything secret from Pym, of course.
He's had no privacy in his life; as a child with high medical needs,
he grew up with no physical privacy, and with Bothari shadowing
him all the time - not much of any other kind as well. (In Cetaganda
we see Ivan looking after Miles, dealing with his leg braces and so
on, and Miles doesn't even think about it. Everyone around him is
part of his support team, that's his life.) So of course his courtship
is going to happen in semi-public.

And I have to say...Pym. He's glorious. He can deal with anything
without turning a hair.

Another favourite is the Professora. She's going to have fun watching
the show.

And that house - bright tiles inside and out, nice garden out the back,
plenty of books everywhere... I want to live in that house.
--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7C0ad7a5d869584a97cb4208da157cf2c4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637845923632600377%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=bdUEW9yNxtZyEcIKKEPwLvP7pUVSjC11uMAg7DjAuuk%3D&amp;reserved=0

From wawenri at msn.com  Sun Apr  3 23:21:34 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 22:21:34 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1
In-Reply-To: <907299110.930803.1649004588081@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1648983601.17082.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E42CF4383DFF8B9FD01FCEE29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <907299110.930803.1649004588081@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB484745EEEF289A0CD95C7657B4E29@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

If there?s any equipment he needs, it will be provided. If there?s no room, space will be made available. Professor Vorthys is not only an Auditor, he?s the empire?s leading authority on failure analysis and sabotage.

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.

________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Richard Molpus <rgmolpus at flash.net>
Sent: Sunday, April 3, 2022 10:49:48 AM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1

"Apart from his knowledge and ability, Georg is perfect for an Auditor, because
he doesn't crave more money, more power, or a more lavish lifestyle. (I wonder if you could bribe him with books?)"


You could bribe him with a  Bridgeport Series I - 9" x 49" 3HP Variable Speed Milling Machine, or a Clausing 6 foot lathe...
(I know what Engineers like...)

    On Sunday, April 3, 2022, 09:05:14 AM CDT, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:



--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cd7e1c1650dfb451374ad08da159202f8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637846014102348493%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=WkyVb7C8IV8MOcT4JHkANh4gPCs1I6Ty3eBLUtFz1pI%3D&amp;reserved=0

From ravenclaweric at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 23:30:39 2022
From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 17:30:39 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1
In-Reply-To: <CO3PR18MB484745EEEF289A0CD95C7657B4E29@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.1.1648983601.17082.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E42CF4383DFF8B9FD01FCEE29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <907299110.930803.1649004588081@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CO3PR18MB484745EEEF289A0CD95C7657B4E29@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAO7QBz80PXfDB7wKOEGYw1wOtGNMX5Y+UG4WPtv7kGFXdFKPKw@mail.gmail.com>

I'd love to see what hobbies he pursues down in his basement, in his
no-doubt-copious spare time.

On Sun, Apr 3, 2022 at 5:21 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com> wrote:

> If there?s any equipment he needs, it will be provided. If there?s no
> room, space will be made available. Professor Vorthys is not only an
> Auditor, he?s the empire?s leading authority on failure analysis and
> sabotage.
>
> William A Wenrich
>
>   *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of
> Richard Molpus <rgmolpus at flash.net>
> Sent: Sunday, April 3, 2022 10:49:48 AM
> To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <
> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1
>
> "Apart from his knowledge and ability, Georg is perfect for an Auditor,
> because
> he doesn't crave more money, more power, or a more lavish lifestyle. (I
> wonder if you could bribe him with books?)"
>
>
> You could bribe him with a  Bridgeport Series I - 9" x 49" 3HP Variable
> Speed Milling Machine, or a Clausing 6 foot lathe...
> (I know what Engineers like...)
>
>     On Sunday, April 3, 2022, 09:05:14 AM CDT, Gwynne Powell <
> gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cd7e1c1650dfb451374ad08da159202f8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637846014102348493%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=WkyVb7C8IV8MOcT4JHkANh4gPCs1I6Ty3eBLUtFz1pI%3D&amp;reserved=0
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  4 02:03:38 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 01:03:38 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Lord Auditor Count Vorvolk
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1734.1649023230.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1734.1649023230.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38444E2AF19276F213AE9A21CEE59@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Pouncer <pouncer at aol.com>

Because, as noted,  Miles had just diverted funds from Barrayar's
"equipment replacement" check right towards his new found clone.
Who promptly takes the money and runs.

Gwynne: It could be argued that this is a justifiable investment: it
keeps Mark (at least vaguely) on their side, and heads of some of th e
problems of having a Miles-clone/trained-assassin running around. Also
that Barrayar owes him something.


It's also not unusual -- going back to the Hegen Hub, at least --
for Miles-the-mercenary to be paid AS a mercenary BY the local
oligarchs AS WELL as the Barrayaran Empire. It's not at all clear
that any of the extra money is paid back into Simon's black budget.
More likely, and at best, the double (triple, fourple) payments
merely reduce the load on the ImpSec purse.  As with the tragic
Vorberg rescue mission, "Illyan ought to like the accountant's
report. The Dendarii had not only kept costs under budget -- for a
change -- they had made a truly amazing profit.  Illyan ... had got
his courier officer retrieved effectively for free."   Although
Illyan had sent payment for the mission even before he could know
it was successful. Such faith.

Gwynne: It's worth noting that Miles apparently takes no money
with him when he leaves the Dendarii. We see a pretty close
accounting of his available funds when he's fired from ImpSec, and
it doesn't seem to include any Dendarii money, just his Lieutenant's
pay and then Vorkosigan funds. And later, Elli brings all his gear
with her, but there's no mention of any money. Miles walks away from
ten years with the Dendarii with half a tonne of weapons and body
armour, a few uniforms, and nothing else.

....
I think, too, that when Cordelia and others were betting that ex-
Lieutenant Vorkosigan would run away to become only and forever
Admiral Naismith of the Dendarii,  they were still unaware that
Elena had already left. The Dendarii were barely "home" without
her. Elli Quinn and Taura together were not enough.

Gwynne: Yes, Elena was a huge factor in his life (but while he was
still in love with her he was also in relationships with Elli and Taura.)



From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  4 02:07:02 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 01:07:02 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1734.1649023230.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1734.1649023230.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844AB83347470E2B19EABD8CEE59@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Louann Miller <domelouann at gmail.com>


On Sun, Apr 3, 2022 at 9:05 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Miles is babbling. The Professora, who has a wonderful time
> watching this whole game play out (and who's far more aware
> of what's going on than the actual participants) welcomes him.
>

And Miles' "You're going to be around, aren't you?" in the middle of his
babble is clearly sincere. We don't see them interact much, but he likes
and respects the Professora. Also, while he wants Ekaterin to be All His
Own in the marital sense, he doesn't try to monopolize her time. Some guys
in the throes of first love would and do. (I personally suspect that Tien
was like that at first, and that a very young Ekaterin was charmed.)
Louann

Gwynne: I think he realises that the Professora is on his side (and he's
been getting to know her as a fellow-Auditor's wife, as well - he's been
getting to know the other Auditors.) Miles also ... well I can't really say
he works well with a team, but he depends on good support staff for
his missions, and this is the most important mission ever.

From billmasek at comcast.net  Mon Apr  4 03:44:44 2022
From: billmasek at comcast.net (Bill Masek)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 22:44:44 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 203, Issue 11
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1734.1649023230.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1734.1649023230.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <ec531389-5452-9ab7-79bb-3f91b1a4e88f@comcast.net>


It was clear to the Professora at the end of Komarr that Ekaterin liked 
Miles.? (One of my favorite lines.)

Ekaterin described Miles as:? "He's not so short.? He's just ... 
concentrated."

Bill

On 4/3/22 6:00 PM, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk wrote:

From: Lois-Bujold<lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk>  on behalf of Gwynne Powell<gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 3, 2022 8:19:10 AM
To:lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk  <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 - Comments



So, we're off again. Miles is frantically planning, and completely
unaware of Ekaterin's interest in him (to be fair, she's not really
aware either. They suit each other so well.)

Miles doesn't try to keep anything secret from Pym, of course.
He's had no privacy in his life; as a child with high medical needs,
he grew up with no physical privacy, and with Bothari shadowing
him all the time - not much of any other kind as well. (In Cetaganda
we see Ivan looking after Miles, dealing with his leg braces and so
on, and Miles doesn't even think about it. Everyone around him is
part of his support team, that's his life.) So of course his courtship
is going to happen in semi-public.

And I have to say...Pym. He's glorious. He can deal with anything
without turning a hair.

Another favourite is the Professora. She's going to have fun watching
the show.

And that house - bright tiles inside and out, nice garden out the back,
plenty of books everywhere... I want to live in that house.
--


From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  4 15:59:00 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 14:59:00 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649070001.5967.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649070001.5967.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844DCB87A0235782A6BE19ECEE59@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



The Visit is underway; Ekaterin is totally focussed on planning the garden.
Miles has absolutely no clue about plants, and his only interest in them is
learning the ones that cause his allergies, so that he can avoid them.

"...aesthetics are not exactly my area of expertise..."  The man is tone-deaf
and wears grey for almost all of his adult life.

Ekaterin is well aware of the situation in Vorbarr Sultana:

"I hadn't thought of it as a political statement. I'd thought of it as a gift."

"If it's your garden, it will be seen as a political statement whether you intended it or not."

Ekaterin would be quite happy to stay in the garden for longer, making plans,
but Miles entices her into the house. I love it that Ekaterin notices that the
House is big and dark, but she's probably the only visitor who's also noticed
that the patch of grass in the centre of the curved drive is 'brilliantly healthy'.
(I wonder if Miles had an armsman out there spraying it with green paint?)

All three of his armsmen are in the entry hall, in their best uniforms. Miles
knows why they're there. He introduces them to Ekaterin. (They've probably
already started the betting on the outcome and timing of Miles's romance.
I think it's sweet that they put on their best uniforms and line up to see her.
It's also self-preservation, of course - this romance will impact on their future.)

Miles wants to give her a guided tour; again, part of his attempt to attract
her (Oh wow, I love a man with a big house!) She'd have been happy to spend
the afternoon in the library.

Miles takes her through the library, downstairs to the wine cellars, through
the car park to the kitchens... not the way I'd have planned it, really. But she
does get to meet Ma Kosti, who's also onside with the idea of the Big Romance.
Then finally they trek through some of the main rooms, and up to his suite.
He's quite prepared to drag the poor woman through the attics as well. (I'd
never realised that courtship was measured in distance travelled.) He does
march her up to his childhood bedroom. (This is hilarious, but also touching -
Miles is like that.) Then she opens a door and finds a wardrobe full of his
old uniforms, and gets a lungful of pure masculine atmosphere (I'm sure
the clothes were cleaned properly, this is a pure emotional reaction, I think.)
Ekaterin suddenly realises that her hormones haven't shut down after all.
(Vorkosigan House seems to be a good place for important revelations.)

She sees the grey uniforms, and meets Admiral Naismith. (Not all that
secret, it seems.) Miles puts the jacket on - his pants are the same colour,
in his heart he's still in uniform - and she sees the stunner that he wears.
That's the other side of the deal; there will always be danger. (Considering
what she put up with when married to Tien, a security scare now and then
 really isn't as bad a downside as that.)  Ekaterin sees Naismith; there's an
entirely different physical presence. And a bit more physical presence than
there used to be; life with Ma Kosti has put a few kilos on his frame; the jacket
no longer fits.

His reaction is interesting; he laughs ruefully. He's philosophical about it.
(I'm not going to mention Tien much more, but just compare this; when
thrown into an embarrassing situation, Miles is rueful and amused, and
he deals with it. Tien would have snapped and snarled and found a way
to blame Ekaterin.)


The man had driven his body far past its limits, in the belief, apparently, that unsupported will could conquer anything.

So it can. For a time. Then time ran out?no. Time ran on. There was no end to time. But you come to the end of yourself, and time runs on, and leaves you. Her years with Tien had taught her that, if nothing else.

...This is where she is now; Ekaterin sees herself as washed up on the riverbank
as time runs on. An interesting comparison with Harra's wisdom, that you go
on. Ekaterin sees herself as stopped.

Ekaterin hates the idea of Miles giving the uniforms to Nikki to play with:
she sees their real value, and cost.

Miles still misses Naismith, but he has no desire to go back. He's happy with
his life now.

Back to his suite, and Ma Kosti serves them; oh yes, all the staff are invested
in this. He explains Mark to her (Give him points for getting ALL the important
stuff out in the open at the very beginning.) A random kitten comes to
forage for spare food - I still think they're a Cetagandan plot. The desserts
are superb (not sure this is an enticement; living there and having Ma Kosti
food available all the time could lead to Mark-like weight gain.)

I like it that Ekaterin's thoughts are very protective about Miles already.
His uniforms are precious... he's not fat at all...

And then Ivan turns up, with his usual perfect timing. He's on wedding
business. Ivan meets Ekaterin, with style. Then he helps himself to some
leftover desserts and settles in. He rescues the kitten, giving it something
to eat to keep it busy. Ivan brings wedding duties.

Ekaterin leaves him to deal with apparently important security matters.

Ivan isn't doing so well on the romance front. His latest prospect was
just using him to make her ex jealous. Girls just aren't fun any more.
His mistress has gone off with her husband to some distant posting,
with barely a goodbye.

In woman-poor Vorbarr Sultana, a young widow is a valuable
commodity.

Poor Ivan is working for his mum until The Wedding. Which is, of
course, politically important as well as a happy social event. All has
to go smoothly. (For all his 'verminoid' thoughts about the kitten, Ivan
ends up with the kitten happily purring in his lap. He's not as mean as
he thinks he is.)

Miles has NO sense of humour, or proportion, about Ekaterin. He gets
downright threatening. (Miles is always much scarier when he goes
quiet.) Ivan also makes an unfortunate joke about making widows, and
the results are NOT good. (Miles is a bit like Gregor, he goes icily
quiet when he's furiously angry.)

There's not a single shred of envy in Ivan, not for Miles's rank, or
jobs, or his political ambitions. And Ivan genuinely cares for Miles,
he was incredibly moved when Miles took his oath as Auditor.

Miles gives up on anger and goes to a sweet smile, and asking nicely.
He's so sure that if Ivan wanted Ekaterin, he could take her away from
Miles. Poor Miles really has no idea of his own attractions.

As Ivan leaves he realises that MIles got what he wanted after all: Ivan's
word that he wouldn't woo Ekaterin. But.. he hadn't promised not to tell
anyone else about her....


From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  4 16:08:58 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 15:08:58 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649070001.5967.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649070001.5967.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38443CD0C6D95381E47DF60ACEE59@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



It's so funny, and sweet, watching Miles work so hard to woo Ekaterin, when
she's already keen on him, although neither of them realise that. They're both
totally clueless, and completely unaware - I love watching them.

Ivan genuinely cares about Miles, although he has no hesitation about stirring
him whenever possible. Miles gets very hostile so fast - he's really sure that
Ivan can have any woman he wants.

I think the most telling moment in the courtship, so far, is when MIles tries on an
old uniform and slips back into Naismith so fast. And when the uniform doesn't
fit he's rueful and amused, not angry or upset. The way someone reacts to
small irritations tells you a lot about them.

This is one of those books that I like to read slowly, because I like spending time
with these people.

From pouncer at aol.com  Mon Apr  4 16:36:53 2022
From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 10:36:53 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Lord Auditor Count Vorvolk
References: <009c0658-541f-c84f-f185-11b39914b953.ref@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009c0658-541f-c84f-f185-11b39914b953@aol.com>

Pouncer:
 >> Miles had just diverted funds from Barrayar's
 >> "equipment replacement" check right towards his new
 >>found clone. Who promptly takes the money and runs.

Gwynne:
  >It could be argued that this is a justifiable investment:
  >it keeps Mark (at least vaguely) on their side, and heads off
  >some of the problems of having a Miles-clone/trained-assassin
  >running around.

Well, by analogy with Miles himself, that HAS been argued.

Illyan:  "I consider what the emperor spends to keep up your
connection to the Dendarii Free Mercenaries to be worth it
purely from an internal security standpoint. Were you to be
permanently posted at, ay, Imperial HQ here at the capital,
you'd be a damned plot-magnet all the time.  Not just for
favor- and office-seekers, but for anyone who wants to touch
your father through you. As now. "

So, paying money to keep Miles -- and by extension, Mark
who might be considered a plot-ELECTO-magnet, something
of a super-charged synthetic designed-for-the-purpose
plot-magnet -- at a distance is "worth it".

On the other hand, ImpSec is paying to keep Miles CONNECTED.
He's on a string, assigned to particular missions, "go there,
find out what, do this..."  God help Barrayar if Miles were
unleashed to go and investigate and do whatever strikes  his
fancy -- if he were, just for instance, made an auditor...

Ahem!

Back to the interval conversations,  Vorvolk and the others
worried about Dendarii expenses did in face have a point. The
funds ear-marked for "equipment replacement" were poorly
accounted for.   (We need not get into the Earth military
contractors who boasted of their famed abillty to keep
excessive cost over-runs to an industry-standard minimum...)

And even Illyan can't have been thrilled to have a plot-magnet
FUNDED and SET LOOSE without strings, or even instructions.

Remember, even Miles tempts himself on that.  Mark says (_BoI_)
"Its a wonder you're not trying to switch identites with _me_."

Miles laughs painfully.  What a temptation.  Ditch his uniform,
walk into a tubeway, and disappear with a credit chit for
half-a-million marks in his pocket. To be a free man.

Oh, looking that quote up, another. This might be Miles lying.
He's telling a Ghem "century captain" after all.  But Miles
agrees with the Cetagandan that the Dagoola contract was a mistake.
"After we rescued their damned army, the Underground stiffed us.
Did us out of half our promised pay."   Now,  IF this was true,
and known to Imperial Accounting ... Well, Vorvolk's audit would
be much more justified.

Still, back to whether bribing Mark is "worth it."  Not in
retrospect, after Mark rescues the cryo-corpse Miles.  But in
prospect, during Vorvolk's audit: Given that a trained assassin
has just be set loose, funded, to "take it and retire to the Pleasure
Domes of Mars... or buy an education, or two or three. Or stuff
it down the first waste chute."  It's about the worst nightmare
Illyan can have --- well, except maybe setting CAVILLO loose.

(Plot bunny, fic inspiration... Cavillo and Mark meet up.  Allies
or adversaries?)

I suspect that during this audit,  neither Illyan nor Vorvolk has been
completely apprised of Mark's credit chit.   The first person Miles 
would tell, tell all, tell about how his "baby brother" was treated --
well, that's a later interval.




-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


From howard at brazee.net  Mon Apr  4 17:14:03 2022
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 10:14:03 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Lord Auditor Count Vorvolk
In-Reply-To: <009c0658-541f-c84f-f185-11b39914b953@aol.com>
References: <009c0658-541f-c84f-f185-11b39914b953.ref@aol.com>
 <009c0658-541f-c84f-f185-11b39914b953@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FBD95BE5-D23C-478D-95D4-B50E1A49F4CB@brazee.net>



> On Apr 4, 2022, at 9:36 AM, Pouncer via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Back to the interval conversations,  Vorvolk and the others
> worried about Dendarii expenses did in face have a point. The
> funds ear-marked for "equipment replacement" were poorly
> accounted for.   (We need not get into the Earth military
> contractors who boasted of their famed abillty to keep
> excessive cost over-runs to an industry-standard minimum?)

It?s increasingly obvious that various cultures in business and military and government on our Earth today are quite different in this regard.



From rgmolpus at flash.net  Mon Apr  4 18:08:09 2022
From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 17:08:09 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] Lord Auditor Count Vorvolk
In-Reply-To: <009c0658-541f-c84f-f185-11b39914b953@aol.com>
References: <009c0658-541f-c84f-f185-11b39914b953.ref@aol.com>
 <009c0658-541f-c84f-f185-11b39914b953@aol.com>
Message-ID: <2118965141.1181556.1649092089736@mail.yahoo.com>

An observation on "Lord Auditor Count Vorvolk".
He must have been the Ninth Auditor - granted an auditor's powers just for this investigation. We aren't introduced to the entire auditor system for several year (and books) later, but the later references don't include any mention of Count Vorvolk having been an Auditor.
The oldest Auditor we've met is General Vorparadijs; appointed during Emperor Ezar's reign (and early in his reign, if he calls Aral 'Pior's boy'.)
I've added a mention to this in the Vorkosigan Wiki on the 'Imperial Auditor's' page.

 

From wawenri at msn.com  Mon Apr  4 18:17:53 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 17:17:53 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: Just for Fun Song
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB4847965B137931B9B018D55AB4E59@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

TTTO: Wouldn't it be loverly.

A bunch of stalks that are topped by leaves
Very crunchy for you to eat
And it's low calorie
Now wouldn't it be celery.

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.


From pouncer at aol.com  Mon Apr  4 18:18:20 2022
From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 12:18:20 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 Pt 2
References: <c4c05ee1-d56e-3482-4347-9460579096b1.ref@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c4c05ee1-d56e-3482-4347-9460579096b1@aol.com>

  Gwynne:

 > Miles wants to give her a guided tour; again, part of his attempt to
 > attract her (Oh wow, I love a man with a big house!)

In some tales, the lady loves the big house THEN the man.

Jane: "My dearest sister, now be serious. I want to talk very
seriously. Let me know every thing that I am to know, without delay.
Will you tell me how long you have loved him?"

Elizabeth: "It has been coming on so gradually, that I hardly know when
it began. But I believe I must date it from my first seeing his
beautiful grounds at Pemberley."

[Pemberly] was a large, handsome, stone building, standing well on
rising ground ... [Elizabeth] had never seen a place for which nature
had done more, or where natural beauty had been so little counteracted
by an awkward taste. [A]t **that moment** she felt, that to be mistress 
of Pemberley might be something!

-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


From saffronrose at me.com  Mon Apr  4 18:34:41 2022
From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 10:34:41 -0700
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB384447B6A8421C315FC631C6CEE29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <SY4P282MB384447B6A8421C315FC631C6CEE29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <AE2309D1-7540-469A-A542-BF703D41E1A0@me.com>

On Apr 3, 2022, at 7:19 AM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> So, we're off again. Miles is frantically planning, and completely
> unaware of Ekaterin's interest in him (to be fair, she's not really
> aware either. They suit each other so well.)

I confess to an inability similar to Miles, being flirt-blind. I?m great at wordplay, but if there are Romantic Overtones, I may not notice. I?ve been told a waitress was flirting with me after the fact, having sensed none of it. I thought she was just stellar at service.

Except for the lack of court drama & other mystery staples, our courtship selves resembled Lord Peter and Harriet, without the stylish setting. His handfasted sweetie says Wimsey-style Piffle is his love-language. 

> And that house - bright tiles inside and out, nice garden out the back,
> plenty of books everywhere... I want to live in that house.

What I would do with that bit of wasteland (sans T.S. Eliot), with water we haven?t got right now?and it would be fun learning from Ekaterin how to set up irrigation and water features!

I?ve managed to make shift without a yard, or dirt to play in, here, with things in pots & planters. No hose-bibs, so pitchers refilled as needed makes for a less soothing experience. A friend, my former dance troupe-leader, has an overgrown yard to manage and has offered me the renovation & upkeep job. It?s going to take a while, but we have similar preferences & attitudes about what?s needed & desired. It?s got a built-in mulch-maker aka a redwood tree.

I?ll be reading the comments but not participating much. New equipment to set up, repotting to plan, a long overdue update on my belle-m?re to write, short form being: she?d rather be home, but she?s not panicking at being at the convalescent center, where her body is relearning movement after surgical rearranging. We?re happy with the staff?and on 3rd May, Edna has an intake appointment with my doctor, as her current one seems to have written Edna off, unlike mine with me.

A. Marina Fournier
saffronrose at me.com
Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e
Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA
Sent from iFionnghuala

From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Mon Apr  4 19:00:53 2022
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 14:00:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] Lord Auditor Count Vorvolk
In-Reply-To: <009c0658-541f-c84f-f185-11b39914b953@aol.com>
References: <009c0658-541f-c84f-f185-11b39914b953.ref@aol.com>
 <009c0658-541f-c84f-f185-11b39914b953@aol.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204041352410.9950@pannier.local>

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022, Pouncer via Lois-Bujold wrote:
> Pouncer:
>>> Miles had just diverted funds from Barrayar's
>>> "equipment replacement" check right towards his new
>>> found clone. Who promptly takes the money and runs.
>
> Gwynne:
> >It could be argued that this is a justifiable investment:
> >it keeps Mark (at least vaguely) on their side, and heads off
> >some of the problems of having a Miles-clone/trained-assassin
> >running around.
>
> Well, by analogy with Miles himself, that HAS been argued.
>
> Illyan:  "I consider what the emperor spends to keep up your
> connection to the Dendarii Free Mercenaries to be worth it
> purely from an internal security standpoint. Were you to be
> permanently posted at, ay, Imperial HQ here at the capital,
> you'd be a damned plot-magnet all the time.  Not just for
> favor- and office-seekers, but for anyone who wants to touch
> your father through you. As now. "
>
> So, paying money to keep Miles -- and by extension, Mark
> who might be considered a plot-ELECTO-magnet, something
> of a super-charged synthetic designed-for-the-purpose
> plot-magnet -- at a distance is "worth it".

At the time, Miles had to make the decision himself what to do with Mark. 
He couldn't consult back with Illyan or his father. As for the ambassador 
on Earth, or Duv Galeni - that really wasn't their decision to make.

So, as long as he reported it and his reasons why - I think Illyan would 
have gone along with it. He might have suggested that the Vorkosigans pay 
for it, but I think he would see this as a way to possibly hold on to and 
partially mollify an otherwise-threat, and so justifiable. Did he report 
it to Gregor? Did Miles or Aral?

> On the other hand, ImpSec is paying to keep Miles CONNECTED.
> He's on a string, assigned to particular missions, "go there,
> find out what, do this..."  God help Barrayar if Miles were
> unleashed to go and investigate and do whatever strikes  his
> fancy -- if he were, just for instance, made an auditor...

Very good point.

> And even Illyan can't have been thrilled to have a plot-magnet
> FUNDED and SET LOOSE without strings, or even instructions.

It was not going to be possible for Miles to hold on to Mark at that 
point. Having him desperate for cash and willing to sign up with a House 
would be substantially worse, no?

> Still, back to whether bribing Mark is "worth it."  Not in
> retrospect, after Mark rescues the cryo-corpse Miles.  But in
> prospect, during Vorvolk's audit: Given that a trained assassin
> has just be set loose, funded, to "take it and retire to the Pleasure
> Domes of Mars... or buy an education, or two or three. Or stuff
> it down the first waste chute."  It's about the worst nightmare
> Illyan can have --- well, except maybe setting CAVILLO loose.

I would argue there are worse... at least this assassin has (apparently) 
given up on going after the Vorkosigans or the Emperor.

> I suspect that during this audit,  neither Illyan nor Vorvolk has been
> completely apprised of Mark's credit chit.   The first person Miles would 
> tell, tell all, tell about how his "baby brother" was treated --
> well, that's a later interval.

He would have surely told Cordelia, and through her, Aral.

Alayne

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca

What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich

From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Mon Apr  4 19:02:46 2022
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 14:02:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] Lord Auditor Count Vorvolk
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38444E2AF19276F213AE9A21CEE59@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1734.1649023230.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38444E2AF19276F213AE9A21CEE59@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204041401160.9950@pannier.local>

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022, Gwynne Powell wrote:
> Gwynne: It could be argued that this is a justifiable investment: it
> keeps Mark (at least vaguely) on their side, and heads of some of th e
> problems of having a Miles-clone/trained-assassin running around. Also
> that Barrayar owes him something.

Agreed.

> Gwynne: It's worth noting that Miles apparently takes no money
> with him when he leaves the Dendarii. We see a pretty close
> accounting of his available funds when he's fired from ImpSec, and
> it doesn't seem to include any Dendarii money, just his Lieutenant's
> pay and then Vorkosigan funds. And later, Elli brings all his gear
> with her, but there's no mention of any money. Miles walks away from
> ten years with the Dendarii with half a tonne of weapons and body
> armour, a few uniforms, and nothing else.

Good point!

Which underlines how he ultimately saw his time with the Dendarii as 
Imperial service - "I was never a mercenary."

Alayne

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca

What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich

From john.c.lennard at gmail.com  Mon Apr  4 20:16:08 2022
From: john.c.lennard at gmail.com (John Lennard)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 19:16:08 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: Tolkien's artwork
Message-ID: <CAA6AESnu-HtkxT8d==c3H_YMByHH3hKYZ511oB-oWmZ5kktkaQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the reference, Jerrie.

If anyone wants to see/own paper copies, most of the drawings are in one or
more of:

Wayne G. Hammond & Christina Scull, *J. R. R. Tolkien: Artist and
Illustrator* (Boston & New York: Houghton Mifflin, 1995)
-- eds, *The Art of The Hobbit* (London: HarperCollins, 2011)
-- eds, *The Art of The Lord of the Rings* (London: HarperCollins, 2015)

-- 
John Lennard, MA DPhil. (Oxon.), MA (WU)

Associate Member, Hughes Hall, Cambridge
Independent Scholar
www.humanities-ebooks.co.uk

*Mock-Death in Shakespeare's Plays*
The first full study of Shakespeare's favourite dramatic device

*The Exasperating Case of David Weber, or The Slow Death of The Honorverse*
22 years ago Weber created it and in the last ten he has broken it ...

*Tolkien's Triumph: The Strange History of *The Lord of the Rings
Just how did a 1000-page book with 6 appendices come to sell 8,500 copies
per day?

*Talking Sense About *Fifty Shades of Grey*, or Fanfiction, Feminism, and
BDSM*
The story the media *isn't* telling ...

Available from Kindle Stores, and in PDF from the author.

From john.c.lennard at gmail.com  Mon Apr  4 20:24:07 2022
From: john.c.lennard at gmail.com (John Lennard)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 19:24:07 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1.
Message-ID: <CAA6AESnTC2p9sH71YSDRZ9s2024XSAyjyK7Y47E6tR1Evvs8nQ@mail.gmail.com>

As the discussion kicks off (thanks, Gwynne), I remind listies that *A
Reader's Companion to A Civil Campaign*, gathering the fruits of the
several full reads the list did up to 2011, is available free, as a PDF or
an ePub file, at http://dendarii.com/accc.html

It has essays on the major intertexts pointed in the dedication,and  on LMB
and Shakespeare, and LMB and Romance, as well as ch. by ch. annotations.

-- 
John Lennard, MA DPhil. (Oxon.), MA (WU)

Associate Member, Hughes Hall, Cambridge
Independent Scholar
www.humanities-ebooks.co.uk

*Mock-Death in Shakespeare's Plays*
The first full study of Shakespeare's favourite dramatic device

*The Exasperating Case of David Weber, or The Slow Death of The Honorverse*
22 years ago Weber created it and in the last ten he has broken it ...

*Tolkien's Triumph: The Strange History of *The Lord of the Rings
Just how did a 1000-page book with 6 appendices come to sell 8,500 copies
per day?

*Talking Sense About *Fifty Shades of Grey*, or Fanfiction, Feminism, and
BDSM*
The story the media *isn't* telling ...

Available from Kindle Stores, and in PDF from the author.

From ravenclaweric at gmail.com  Mon Apr  4 21:56:12 2022
From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 15:56:12 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Tolkien on Barrayar?
Message-ID: <CAO7QBz-OWQumA_P203E6WG-2UKTrbavme4d3+pUTex9zyHbR8g@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder if the Forster had Tolkien's works with them?  And how much, if at
all, they changed during the Time of Isolation?

From margdean56 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  4 22:11:08 2022
From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 15:11:08 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Tolkien on Barrayar?
In-Reply-To: <CAO7QBz-OWQumA_P203E6WG-2UKTrbavme4d3+pUTex9zyHbR8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO7QBz-OWQumA_P203E6WG-2UKTrbavme4d3+pUTex9zyHbR8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2gbLhqrEjgmF1WV3HOxuZHzASeHMp+8Do_VXKr3e++216Ldw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 4, 2022 at 2:56 PM Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com> wrote:

> I wonder if the [Firsters] had Tolkien's works with them?  And how much,
> if at
> all, they changed during the Time of Isolation?
>

I don't think written works like Tolkien (or, for that matter, Shakespeare)
would so much change during the ToI as they might be *added to.* It's not
like the Barrayarans lost writing ... but they do seem to have ended up
with some extra Shakespeare, and it would be even easier, in some ways, to
expand on some of the matter of Middle-earth that Tolkien himself only
sketched out or hinted at.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean56 at gmail.com>

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  5 05:49:44 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 04:49:44 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Lord Auditor Count Vorvolk
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1751.1649100265.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1751.1649100265.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844C5AB1727422F048C943CCEE49@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Richard Molpus <rgmolpus at flash.net>

An observation on "Lord Auditor Count Vorvolk".
He must have been the Ninth Auditor - granted an auditor's powers just for this investigation. We aren't introduced to the entire auditor system for several year (and books) later, but the later references don't include any mention of Count Vorvolk having been an Auditor.
The oldest Auditor we've met is General Vorparadijs; appointed during Emperor Ezar's reign (and early in his reign, if he calls Aral 'Pior's boy'.)
I've added a mention to this in the Vorkosigan Wiki on the 'Imperial Auditor's' page.

Gwynne: Is he a capital-letter Auditor? Or is he an accountant doing an
actual audit? Considering the financial aspects of this investigation, I
assumed that he was in this case an actual money-counting auditor, and
any other comments were a wry joke of Simon's. Or that he was being
overseen by one of the regular Auditors, perhaps.

From huntkc at gmail.com  Tue Apr  5 12:21:54 2022
From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 07:21:54 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Lord Auditor Count Vorvolk
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844C5AB1727422F048C943CCEE49@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1751.1649100265.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844C5AB1727422F048C943CCEE49@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CABsO85nV2OULyG+LOD53nktPSj-gvPKxaG3bc_U0qVm4mbwKuQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 12:49 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> From: Richard Molpus <rgmolpus at flash.net>
>
> An observation on "Lord Auditor Count Vorvolk".
> He must have been the Ninth Auditor - granted an auditor's powers just for
> this investigation. We aren't introduced to the entire auditor system for
> several year (and books) later, but the later references don't include any
> mention of Count Vorvolk having been an Auditor.
> The oldest Auditor we've met is General Vorparadijs; appointed during
> Emperor Ezar's reign (and early in his reign, if he calls Aral 'Pior's
> boy'.)
> I've added a mention to this in the Vorkosigan Wiki on the 'Imperial
> Auditor's' page.
>
> Gwynne: Is he a capital-letter Auditor? Or is he an accountant doing an
> actual audit? Considering the financial aspects of this investigation, I
> assumed that he was in this case an actual money-counting auditor, and
> any other comments were a wry joke of Simon's. Or that he was being
> overseen by one of the regular Auditors, perhaps.
>
>
It's not quite clear. An Imperial Audit is happening, but since they
generally have assistants and/or draft people, there's no saying where
Henri Vorvolk is in this picture.

The relevant quote is from Memory, chapter 17:
"The last Imperial Audit ImpSec had suffered had been almost five years
ago, and more traditionally financial in scope. Miles had brushed up
against it on the opposite side that time, as the Auditor had choked on
certain aspects of mercenary accounting. That investigation had had a
dangerous political tinge, from which Illyan had insulated him."

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  5 13:48:31 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 12:48:31 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649156401.26642.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649156401.26642.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38446F8A7F20C2B2698F98A4CEE49@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



Kareen!  The Koudelkas are always fun. Kareen is caught between
longing to be home, and knowing that she's not the same person she
was before - but her family won't know that. (Really, they sent her to
BETA to go to university, and expect her to still be the same person?)
Kareen has been close to Mark, and has been part of his therapy (I
wonder if the therapist did some work with Kareen as well, without
Kareen realising it. Probably. (Are there Barrayaran-specialising therapists
on Beta? I bet their training is... interesting.)

Mark is a whole other issue, I'll give him his own thread.

Kareen admires the social honesty of Betans. At the same time she's
preparing to be very dishonest, or deceptive, herself - hiding her
earrings and not mentioning the contraceptive implant.

The Koudelka clan hit like a wave, with flowers and a welcome-
home sign. Men are walking into walls at the sight of all those
gorgeous women. Kou just waits quietly, he gave up trying to get
a word in years ago. (He's also a teeny bit smug and happy about
his glorious harem. I wonder how many young officers work extra
hard for him, in the hopes of getting close to his daughters.)

Miles lent them the huge groundcar, and Pym. There's a mutual
respect, love and support between the families.

The family fish for information about Mark, and about her life
in general. It's not easy going home and trying to maintain your
new persona, when you fit back so smoothly into your old life.
Growing up is tough.

There's a strong family gossip network: Cordelia's mum passed
information to Cordelia, who passed it on to Drou. And probably
the rest of the family, too (we see that strongly at the end of CVA,
when Ivan gets mail from the family. They're good communicators.
And they have a strong network.)

She tries to explain Mark to the family. Not easy. Especially since
most of the information, even the positive things, wouldn't be
understood by her family. (It's a shame Kareen didn't stop on
Sergyar for a REALLY LONG discussion with Cordelia.)

Discussion is diverted to The Wedding, and Laisa. The Koudelkas
are very pleased with her, and the situation. Plus Gregor's plan
to use replicators. (I know the tech has been slow to be accepted
on Barrayar, but just think for a moment about HOW MANY you'd
need for a planetary population. And the expense - is it a subtle
way to control population growth? And to decide who gets to
reproduce? Will there be a social distinction in their future, where
body births are for the poor and the careless, while 'nice' families
use replicators? On mutie-hating Barryar, will replicator babies
be seen as far superior to non-gene-checked naturals?)

The Wedding is going to be repeated on Komarr as a public relations
exercise; I can't see that any ceremony that includes Aral Vorkosigan
is going to be all that popular on Komarr. But at least they're trying.

Duv did get the job as head of Komarran Affairs. He's still being a
service to the Empire just by existing, as well as by all the work he
does (And he's a twin to Miles in that way.)

The Koudelka home is a very prime piece of real estate - they
bought at the right time, in the right place. There's definitely an
architectural theme in this book; the Vorthys place, Vorkosigan
House, the Koudelka home, the Residence... I'm still working on
it, but buildings are a big part of this book.

Then Kareen has a Talk with her parents. About next year, and
university. They definitely want her to finish her degree, but it
will have to be at the District university. Kareen wants Beta.
She's done fourteen different, unrelated courses so far. Done
well in all of them, but there's a certain lack of cohesion.
Maybe a scholarship to study psycho-engineering... Betan
psycho-engineering (the truth is, of course, that while she's
enjoying all the courses, she's really studying Mark.) But she
had a scholarship from Cordelia, and that's moved on to the
next girl.

Kareen plans to work during the holidays, and with the money
they'd panned to spend on the District university... (She doesn't
quite recognise that if she wants to be a new, improved adult
she needs to act like it, not expect her parents to do everything
for her any more. She's caught between two different states
at the moment.) This wouldn't have stopped Miles. She wonders
if Miles is fuelled by anger, because that's what she's feeling.
But money is tight, they've mortgaged the seaside villa, and
are renting it out; Drou is working; extra money just isn't
available. (Are the girls working? They've all had good educations,
but they don't seem to do all that much beyond social life.)

So, Kareen will have to sort things out for herself. Well, she's
an adult, so it's her responsibility. But it is hard to live in a mid-
way state.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  5 14:00:39 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 13:00:39 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649156401.26642.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649156401.26642.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844F35E9AD23E566B143745CEE49@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>


So, Kareen is home. This book has a lot of information about all
those different buildings, homes, as I noted. But it's also about
all the families in those homes - we see a lot more of
domestic life on Barrayar, in different forms.

And there's an over-arching sense of the family network.
Gossip and information moves around, despite the family
being spread all over the Nexus. They're very united. Marriage
is uniting planets, but also making new families.

Kareen is very committed to Mark. Reasons? Partly liking to be
needed, partly a little of the Vorkosigan glamour, partly that he's
so different to anyone else she's met, partly... ? Chemistry?
Is she more open to non-standard people because she grew
up with Miles around? And she has a handicapped father, too.

As she arrived she was thinking about how much she'd grown
and changed, but she was still planning on her parents paying
her way. Kareen hasn't made it to complete adulthood yet -
although it's difficult when you slot back in to the family home
and family life.

I still think her parents should expect that she'd ... er... made
the most of her time on Beta. They know Cordelia, after all.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  5 14:13:17 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 13:13:17 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Mark
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649156401.26642.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649156401.26642.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38445628510CDE47656BD183CEE49@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



So, Mark. He's worth a thread of his own. He's one of those
slow-burn characters who didn't impress me much at first, but
as we see more of him he becomes very powerful. And, like
Miles, heartwrenching, too.

He had a horrific start. First, the foster parents on JW. Those
people raised children, knowing the children were going to be
killed. They made sure the doomed children did well physically,
but had no interest in them emotionally, educationally or spiritually.
They were just a commodity. Mark sow how he was treated so
differently to the others, and he knew what was going to happen
to all his foster-sibs. All the children he grew up with are probably
long dead now.

Also, during his childhood, he was subjected to constant painful
surgeries. He had no control over his life, at all. He was forced to
learn all about Miles's life, without being able to live it. He must have
HATED Miles, and all of them.

Then Galen, psycho to the hilt, and more torture.

The moment when he killed Galen started his new life - and wow is
that a huge psychological whammy.

And he so wanted to finally meet his genetic family from a position
of strength, instead of which it all went so horrifically wrong, and he
got Miles killed. But they still didn't turn on him - no wonder he was
finally in awe of those people.

Mark and Miles have a lovely/strange/touching relationship. Miles is
very protective of Mark, not wanting Mark to blame himself for MIles's
seizures. Mark tries so hard to seem a bit distant, but he really wants
a good relationship with Miles. Fraternal/parental bonds there.

And Kareen is so protective of Mark, so involved with his progress. Is
he a slightly safer version of Miles?

There's so much going on with Mark. And as we see more of him, he's
so touching, so tentative in some ways, learning fast and confidently in
others. He and Kareen are such a great couple. How well would Mark
have progressed without her? She's his link to humanity.

From mathews55 at msn.com  Tue Apr  5 15:27:30 2022
From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 14:27:30 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38446F8A7F20C2B2698F98A4CEE49@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1649156401.26642.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38446F8A7F20C2B2698F98A4CEE49@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <MN2PR04MB684704D87037691F617B26A9B4E49@MN2PR04MB6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Gwynne asked "Are the (other Koudelka) girls working?"

To answer that in full really needs a trip through Barrayar's class system as of Miles-is-30. Early in his career, Miles could say "The Vor aren't an aristocracy, they're a warrior caste." As they were in Piotr's youth. He was wrong. Two things have happened since the Ending of the Time of Isolation., when you were either Vor, or a prole, end of story.

First, a class of what I'll call Vorables has grown up. That is, non-Vor in a strong enough position to be considered acceptable mates for the Vor. Simon Illyan. Duv Galeni. The industrialist who snapped up one of Ivan's Vor bud possibles. I think in Regency England, some of them might have been considered gentry, unless that applied to landowners exclusively.

That's the class the Koudelkas belong to. It occurs to me that the normal way of "getting a job" in that class is to find a salaried position through your social contacts and relatives. Or, if young, what we'd call an internship these days. I don't think the thought of going out on the job market and taking the sort of jobs that prole girls routinely did - waiting tables, folding laundry, flipping burgers, hairdressing - would ever have crossed Kareen's mind.

But note: when such a position as described above - such as helping Enrique in the lab - two of the Koudelka sisters immediately went for it.

The second is, and we saw it in Komarr, many of the so-called "Warrior caste" - were very far from being aristocrats of any sort, but were in jobs at the lower end of the salary class, with lifestyles to match. "Should we go by prole rules and offer to help in the kitchen? Or by Vor rules, and keep up the pretense that they can afford servants?" comes up somewhere, quite soon, in ACC.

And yet... Ma Kosti is clearly of another class entirely. Shorter, speaks dialect when she's not thinking about it, etc, as we see in Ivan Vorpatril's Alliance. She is working class through and through. Though Rish has no problems apprenticing herself to Ma Kosti in the kitchen! But for Rish, it would be a fine art to add to her accomplishments; and, while part of the family as far as Shiv is concerned, is still in many ways an upper servant. I do think she and Mark would understand each other very well.

Am I making myself clear? Or is this a little abstruse? I think a quick run through Georgette Heyer might clear up some of it, and through Dorothy Sayers' novels set in England between the two World Wars would clear up the rest. And a clear-sighted look at today's class structure would also be helpful.
________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2022 6:48 AM
To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2



Kareen!  The Koudelkas are always fun. Kareen is caught between
longing to be home, and knowing that she's not the same person she
was before - but her family won't know that. (Really, they sent her to
BETA to go to university, and expect her to still be the same person?)
Kareen has been close to Mark, and has been part of his therapy (I
wonder if the therapist did some work with Kareen as well, without
Kareen realising it. Probably. (Are there Barrayaran-specialising therapists
on Beta? I bet their training is... interesting.)

Mark is a whole other issue, I'll give him his own thread.

Kareen admires the social honesty of Betans. At the same time she's
preparing to be very dishonest, or deceptive, herself - hiding her
earrings and not mentioning the contraceptive implant.

The Koudelka clan hit like a wave, with flowers and a welcome-
home sign. Men are walking into walls at the sight of all those
gorgeous women. Kou just waits quietly, he gave up trying to get
a word in years ago. (He's also a teeny bit smug and happy about
his glorious harem. I wonder how many young officers work extra
hard for him, in the hopes of getting close to his daughters.)

Miles lent them the huge groundcar, and Pym. There's a mutual
respect, love and support between the families.

The family fish for information about Mark, and about her life
in general. It's not easy going home and trying to maintain your
new persona, when you fit back so smoothly into your old life.
Growing up is tough.

There's a strong family gossip network: Cordelia's mum passed
information to Cordelia, who passed it on to Drou. And probably
the rest of the family, too (we see that strongly at the end of CVA,
when Ivan gets mail from the family. They're good communicators.
And they have a strong network.)

She tries to explain Mark to the family. Not easy. Especially since
most of the information, even the positive things, wouldn't be
understood by her family. (It's a shame Kareen didn't stop on
Sergyar for a REALLY LONG discussion with Cordelia.)

Discussion is diverted to The Wedding, and Laisa. The Koudelkas
are very pleased with her, and the situation. Plus Gregor's plan
to use replicators. (I know the tech has been slow to be accepted
on Barrayar, but just think for a moment about HOW MANY you'd
need for a planetary population. And the expense - is it a subtle
way to control population growth? And to decide who gets to
reproduce? Will there be a social distinction in their future, where
body births are for the poor and the careless, while 'nice' families
use replicators? On mutie-hating Barryar, will replicator babies
be seen as far superior to non-gene-checked naturals?)

The Wedding is going to be repeated on Komarr as a public relations
exercise; I can't see that any ceremony that includes Aral Vorkosigan
is going to be all that popular on Komarr. But at least they're trying.

Duv did get the job as head of Komarran Affairs. He's still being a
service to the Empire just by existing, as well as by all the work he
does (And he's a twin to Miles in that way.)

The Koudelka home is a very prime piece of real estate - they
bought at the right time, in the right place. There's definitely an
architectural theme in this book; the Vorthys place, Vorkosigan
House, the Koudelka home, the Residence... I'm still working on
it, but buildings are a big part of this book.

Then Kareen has a Talk with her parents. About next year, and
university. They definitely want her to finish her degree, but it
will have to be at the District university. Kareen wants Beta.
She's done fourteen different, unrelated courses so far. Done
well in all of them, but there's a certain lack of cohesion.
Maybe a scholarship to study psycho-engineering... Betan
psycho-engineering (the truth is, of course, that while she's
enjoying all the courses, she's really studying Mark.) But she
had a scholarship from Cordelia, and that's moved on to the
next girl.

Kareen plans to work during the holidays, and with the money
they'd panned to spend on the District university... (She doesn't
quite recognise that if she wants to be a new, improved adult
she needs to act like it, not expect her parents to do everything
for her any more. She's caught between two different states
at the moment.) This wouldn't have stopped Miles. She wonders
if Miles is fuelled by anger, because that's what she's feeling.
But money is tight, they've mortgaged the seaside villa, and
are renting it out; Drou is working; extra money just isn't
available. (Are the girls working? They've all had good educations,
but they don't seem to do all that much beyond social life.)

So, Kareen will have to sort things out for herself. Well, she's
an adult, so it's her responsibility. But it is hard to live in a mid-
way state.
--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold

From kcollett at hamilton.edu  Tue Apr  5 15:28:45 2022
From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Katherine Collett)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 10:28:45 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <c4c05ee1-d56e-3482-4347-9460579096b1@aol.com>
References: <c4c05ee1-d56e-3482-4347-9460579096b1.ref@aol.com>
 <c4c05ee1-d56e-3482-4347-9460579096b1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <F1DD816E-B652-4FA7-AB32-A6DFC6BAE9AF@hamilton.edu>

On Apr 4, 2022, at 1:18 PM, Pouncer via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> In some tales, the lady loves the big house THEN the man.
> 
> Jane: "My dearest sister, now be serious. I want to talk very
> seriously. Let me know every thing that I am to know, without delay.
> Will you tell me how long you have loved him?"
> 
> Elizabeth: "It has been coming on so gradually, that I hardly know when
> it began. But I believe I must date it from my first seeing his
> beautiful grounds at Pemberley."

Well, yes, but Elizabeth is clearly joking.  In the 1995 movie Elizabeth's demeanor makes this very clear, but in any case, this passage in the book is immediately followed by Jane's _not_ taking this seriously: "Another entreaty that she would be serious, however, produced the desired effect; and she soon satisfied Jane by her solemn assurances of attachment."  So no, Elizabeth did not love the big house before the man.

Katherine, erstwhile teacher of English literature to first-years

From pouncer at aol.com  Tue Apr  5 15:43:13 2022
From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 09:43:13 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Vorvolk -- "A"uditor or "a"uditor?
References: <82b6914e-f6ef-48d0-2bc0-75f8667c44f4.ref@aol.com>
Message-ID: <82b6914e-f6ef-48d0-2bc0-75f8667c44f4@aol.com>

 > Gwynne: Is he a capital-letter Auditor? Or is he an accountant doing
 > an actual audit?

I seem to drift between the variant realities (Berenstain vs
Berenstene Bear books, for instance) so I can't be sure of
my memories here.  BUT, what I remember is a bit from Lois
in an "end piece" around the reading order of stories versus
publication order.  Miles is 17, Miles is 20, Miles is 23 ...
at some point discussing the publication of the _BoI_
collection Lois remarked (IIRC) the framing sequence was
most notable for the first appearance (inkling, hint,
mention.... something) of the Imperial Auditor.

So, non canonical, but obiter ex cathedral dicta.  If
I am not crazy, which possibility I never discount
entirely.

-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


From kawyle at att.net  Tue Apr  5 16:44:43 2022
From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:44:43 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 Pt 2 - effect of Pemberley
In-Reply-To: <F1DD816E-B652-4FA7-AB32-A6DFC6BAE9AF@hamilton.edu>
References: <c4c05ee1-d56e-3482-4347-9460579096b1.ref@aol.com>
 <c4c05ee1-d56e-3482-4347-9460579096b1@aol.com>
 <F1DD816E-B652-4FA7-AB32-A6DFC6BAE9AF@hamilton.edu>
Message-ID: <1795420897.1488757.1649173483567@mail.yahoo.com>

 I've pondered this point often, and am inclined to believe there's a small grain of truth in the jest.
Karen A. Wyle
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022, 10:29:01 AM EDT, Katherine Collett <kcollett at hamilton.edu> wrote:  
 
 On Apr 4, 2022, at 1:18 PM, Pouncer via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> In some tales, the lady loves the big house THEN the man.
> 
> Jane: "My dearest sister, now be serious. I want to talk very
> seriously. Let me know every thing that I am to know, without delay.
> Will you tell me how long you have loved him?"
> 
> Elizabeth: "It has been coming on so gradually, that I hardly know when
> it began. But I believe I must date it from my first seeing his
> beautiful grounds at Pemberley."

Well, yes, but Elizabeth is clearly joking.? In the 1995 movie Elizabeth's demeanor makes this very clear, but in any case, this passage in the book is immediately followed by Jane's _not_ taking this seriously: "Another entreaty that she would be serious, however, produced the desired effect; and she soon satisfied Jane by her solemn assurances of attachment."? So no, Elizabeth did not love the big house before the man.

Katherine, erstwhile teacher of English literature to first-years
-- 
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
  

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  5 17:00:53 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 16:00:53 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1756.1649168859.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1756.1649168859.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844647B38856BA94D4864A6CEE49@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Pat Mathews <mathews55 at msn.com>


Gwynne asked "Are the (other Koudelka) girls working?"

To answer that in full really needs a trip through Barrayar's class system as of Miles-is-30. Early in his career, Miles could say "The Vor aren't an aristocracy, they're a warrior caste." As they were in Piotr's youth. He was wrong. Two things have happened since the Ending of the Time of Isolation., when you were either Vor, or a prole, end of story.

First, a class of what I'll call Vorables has grown up. That is, non-Vor in a strong enough position to be considered acceptable mates for the Vor. Simon Illyan. Duv Galeni. The industrialist who snapped up one of Ivan's Vor bud possibles. I think in Regency England, some of them might have been considered gentry, unless that applied to landowners exclusively.

Gwynne: I'll cut some of this for brevity, but it's a brilliant post. I see traditional
Barrayaran society as Vor or prole, upper or working class. Now there's a
flourishing middle class, overlapping with a lot of the lower-end Vor, and
competing for the same jobs - management positions, government jobs, etc.
And many of the wealthy proles are marrying Vor women, so there's an
increasing group of rich proles who have some High Vor relatives. You can
have proles doing 'My-grandfather-the-Count'.

The point is made earlier in the saga that retired prole officers are pseudo-Vor,
with many of the same opportunities and privileges.

As for the Koudelka girls, they all apparently have university educations.
Proles, especially prole women, are common as lawyers. They could also
work in Alys's office, or any business office. If we look at Western society
today, plenty of upper-class young women work in semi-diplomatic
jobs (low level but nice-sounding titles), the arts (didn't one of Prince
Andrew's daughters work for a high-level auction house, handling artworks,
etc?) and similar jobs - things that are on the fringes of upper-class
activities, jobs that involve socialising with the right people, basically
assistants who look and sound good but aren't on the track for real top-
level jobs, until Mr Right (and Rich and Upper-class) comes along.

There's also a lot of differentiation within the Vor. There's High Vor, who
are connected to the sixty Counts - within a generation or so of the Count,
once you go below grandchildren they probably drop out of the High Vor. Then
there's good solid ordinary Vor - like Ekaterin's family. We see her sister-in-law,
and her brother, they're equal to middle class in our society. Salaried workers,
in middle management level.

There's also Rural Vor - who would be the local squire a few generations ago
in our society. They'd range from high to very low Vor, it's more about their
chosen lifestyle and very conservative outlook.

Miles and Vorberg talked about 'keeping Vor real', the old standards are
fading as there's more crossover between Vor and prole. Being Vor has
more responsibilities, and there are some laws that are different for Vor -
disobeying an order is treason for Vor (although Aral has Views on that.)





From howard at brazee.net  Tue Apr  5 17:11:36 2022
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 10:11:36 -0600
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844647B38856BA94D4864A6CEE49@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1756.1649168859.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844647B38856BA94D4864A6CEE49@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CA3D8B68-7032-435E-BB1B-4F16C4737F41@brazee.net>

There is a series of novels by Madeleine Robins about a woman of class who becomes a detective instead of a whore.   The introduction to the first book starts off like this:

"It is a truth universally acknowledged that a Fallen Woman of good family must, soon or late, descend to whoredom.?

Options for widows without money weren?t good.

From mathews55 at msn.com  Tue Apr  5 17:15:23 2022
From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 16:15:23 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844647B38856BA94D4864A6CEE49@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1756.1649168859.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844647B38856BA94D4864A6CEE49@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <MN2PR04MB684768E6B99C7EE1AC57FEA8B4E49@MN2PR04MB6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

And yes, you're right about the opportunities open to the Koudelka girls. Right now, they're just at the beginning of their working lives on exactly the path you named, and haven't gotten into those entry-level positions you described. This, of course, leaves them free for the paths they do take.

And - what is the competition like? Barrayar is still expanding, and its economy growing, but the tendency of colleges to turn out more graduates than there are jobs for is a fact of life in today's world.

Oh, and titles for women on Barrayar follow exactly the system I analyzed. Ekaterin, who is Vor, is called "Madame," just like Kareen's mother. Armsman Pyn's wife is called "Ma Pym"

There was one anomaly in the titling system: Elena Bothari's foster-mother, "Mistress Hysopi." But that's a direct translation of the Greek "Kyria," which, if I understand it correctly, is the modern Greek title of address and reference for Greek women, as "Kyrios" is for men. Assume she's Barrayaran Greek, and that falls into place very nicely.
________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2022 10:00 AM
To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2

From: Pat Mathews <mathews55 at msn.com>


Gwynne asked "Are the (other Koudelka) girls working?"

To answer that in full really needs a trip through Barrayar's class system as of Miles-is-30. Early in his career, Miles could say "The Vor aren't an aristocracy, they're a warrior caste." As they were in Piotr's youth. He was wrong. Two things have happened since the Ending of the Time of Isolation., when you were either Vor, or a prole, end of story.

First, a class of what I'll call Vorables has grown up. That is, non-Vor in a strong enough position to be considered acceptable mates for the Vor. Simon Illyan. Duv Galeni. The industrialist who snapped up one of Ivan's Vor bud possibles. I think in Regency England, some of them might have been considered gentry, unless that applied to landowners exclusively.

Gwynne: I'll cut some of this for brevity, but it's a brilliant post. I see traditional
Barrayaran society as Vor or prole, upper or working class. Now there's a
flourishing middle class, overlapping with a lot of the lower-end Vor, and
competing for the same jobs - management positions, government jobs, etc.
And many of the wealthy proles are marrying Vor women, so there's an
increasing group of rich proles who have some High Vor relatives. You can
have proles doing 'My-grandfather-the-Count'.

The point is made earlier in the saga that retired prole officers are pseudo-Vor,
with many of the same opportunities and privileges.

As for the Koudelka girls, they all apparently have university educations.
Proles, especially prole women, are common as lawyers. They could also
work in Alys's office, or any business office. If we look at Western society
today, plenty of upper-class young women work in semi-diplomatic
jobs (low level but nice-sounding titles), the arts (didn't one of Prince
Andrew's daughters work for a high-level auction house, handling artworks,
etc?) and similar jobs - things that are on the fringes of upper-class
activities, jobs that involve socialising with the right people, basically
assistants who look and sound good but aren't on the track for real top-
level jobs, until Mr Right (and Rich and Upper-class) comes along.

There's also a lot of differentiation within the Vor. There's High Vor, who
are connected to the sixty Counts - within a generation or so of the Count,
once you go below grandchildren they probably drop out of the High Vor. Then
there's good solid ordinary Vor - like Ekaterin's family. We see her sister-in-law,
and her brother, they're equal to middle class in our society. Salaried workers,
in middle management level.

There's also Rural Vor - who would be the local squire a few generations ago
in our society. They'd range from high to very low Vor, it's more about their
chosen lifestyle and very conservative outlook.

Miles and Vorberg talked about 'keeping Vor real', the old standards are
fading as there's more crossover between Vor and prole. Being Vor has
more responsibilities, and there are some laws that are different for Vor -
disobeying an order is treason for Vor (although Aral has Views on that.)




--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold

From rgmolpus at flash.net  Tue Apr  5 17:33:07 2022
From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 16:33:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] Vorvolk -- "A"uditor or "a"uditor?
In-Reply-To: <82b6914e-f6ef-48d0-2bc0-75f8667c44f4@aol.com>
References: <82b6914e-f6ef-48d0-2bc0-75f8667c44f4.ref@aol.com>
 <82b6914e-f6ef-48d0-2bc0-75f8667c44f4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <54520789.1501257.1649176387946@mail.yahoo.com>

 If Henri Vorvolk had direct instructions from Gregor to "Find out what's happening.", then, Henri IS effectively an Imperial auditor - he can, if needed, go directly to Gregor for the imperial Power hammer of a 'Request and Require' order to any difficult bureaucrat.
Simon understood this.


    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022, 09:43:32 AM CDT, Pouncer via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:  
 
  > Gwynne: Is he a capital-letter Auditor? Or is he an accountant doing
 > an actual audit?

I seem to drift between the variant realities (Berenstain vs
Berenstene Bear books, for instance) so I can't be sure of
my memories here.? BUT, what I remember is a bit from Lois
in an "end piece" around the reading order of stories versus
publication order.? Miles is 17, Miles is 20, Miles is 23 ...
at some point discussing the publication of the _BoI_
collection Lois remarked (IIRC) the framing sequence was
most notable for the first appearance (inkling, hint,
mention.... something) of the Imperial Auditor.

So, non canonical, but obiter ex cathedral dicta.? If
I am not crazy, which possibility I never discount
entirely.

-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

-- 
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
  

From john.c.lennard at gmail.com  Tue Apr  5 19:10:48 2022
From: john.c.lennard at gmail.com (John Lennard)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 18:10:48 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 Pt 2 - effect of Pemberley
Message-ID: <CAA6AESkDY2=Co0tSjXVkrhoU2n-49HXL5+t_qb3SaXtMd4wB=g@mail.gmail.com>

Pouncer : In some tales, the lady loves the big house THEN the man.
>
> Jane: "My dearest sister, now be serious. I want to talk very
> seriously. Let me know every thing that I am to know, without delay.
> Will you tell me how long you have loved him?"
>
> Elizabeth: "It has been coming on so gradually, that I hardly know when
> it began. But I believe I must date it from my first seeing his
> beautiful grounds at Pemberley."

Katherine : Well, yes, but Elizabeth is clearly joking.? In the 1995 movie
Elizabeth's demeanor makes this very clear, but in any case, this passage
in the book is immediately followed by Jane's _not_ taking this seriously:
"Another entreaty that she would be serious, however, produced the desired
effect; and she soon satisfied Jane by her solemn assurances of
attachment."? So no, Elizabeth did not love the big house before the man.

Karen : I've pondered this point often, and am inclined to believe there's
a small grain of truth in the jest.

John : Say rather an inhering resonance, because in Austen generally a
man's architecture and grounds serve as symbolic of character -- think of
Mr Knightly and Donwell Abbey, or the absurdities of Mr Rushworth at
Sotherton. In P&P the contrast to Pemberley, where Elizabeth has "never
seen a place for which nature had done more, or where natural beauty had
been so little counteracted by an awkward taste", is both Rosings Park,
where nature is wholly subjugated to ostentatious order, and Longbourn, as
grossly neglected by Mr Bennet as every other responsibility he burkes :
embodying acceptance of natural landscape (which Lady Catherine lacks),
good taste (which Mrs Bennet lacks), and diligence (which Mr Bennet lacks),
Pemberley is calculated to display the qualities ELizabeth comes to love in
Mr Darcy (besides his dimples, of course).

For Ekaterin and Vorkosigan House something similar applies. She's seen
Miles do the Auditorial biz, defending the Imperium and Vor ascendancy ;
now she sees what he calls the Vor Pageant, and the House comes staffed
with not only hot and cold running servants, but Armsmen and high security,
the buzz of political power and presence, and a running deficit in
maintenance, all testimony to service as well as wealth and agency. If she
couldn't at least feel some affection for it, she'd have no business
marrying into it, impressively outdated architecture and all.

And of course, landscaping comes attached ...

On Bujoldian novelistic horticulture generally, as influenced by Austen's
variety, hedda62's excellent essay of "Runaway Roses and
Defiant Skellytums" was mentioned onlist not so long ago, but it's always
worth a reminder : https://archiveofourown.org/works/263185

-- 
John Lennard, MA DPhil. (Oxon.), MA (WU)

Associate Member, Hughes Hall, Cambridge
Independent Scholar
www.humanities-ebooks.co.uk

*Mock-Death in Shakespeare's Plays*
The first full study of Shakespeare's favourite dramatic device

*The Exasperating Case of David Weber, or The Slow Death of The Honorverse*
22 years ago Weber created it and in the last ten he has broken it ...

*Tolkien's Triumph: The Strange History of *The Lord of the Rings
Just how did a 1000-page book with 6 appendices come to sell 8,500 copies
per day?

*Talking Sense About *Fifty Shades of Grey*, or Fanfiction, Feminism, and
BDSM*
The story the media *isn't* telling ...

Available from Kindle Stores, and in PDF from the author.

From becca7108 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  5 19:22:20 2022
From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 14:22:20 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 Pt 2 - effect of Pemberley
In-Reply-To: <CAA6AESkDY2=Co0tSjXVkrhoU2n-49HXL5+t_qb3SaXtMd4wB=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA6AESkDY2=Co0tSjXVkrhoU2n-49HXL5+t_qb3SaXtMd4wB=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJH0-vNtN7kZxpH469pd11mP+p25E2De9zN6Sn7eod23hrcc9w@mail.gmail.com>

I have sometimes said that while I love my husband for many reasons, I
married him to get access to his 1950-era (the orange books, not the
blue ones) Childcraft books.

-Becca

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 2:11 PM John Lennard <john.c.lennard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Pouncer : In some tales, the lady loves the big house THEN the man.
> >
> > Jane: "My dearest sister, now be serious. I want to talk very
> > seriously. Let me know every thing that I am to know, without delay.
> > Will you tell me how long you have loved him?"
> >
> > Elizabeth: "It has been coming on so gradually, that I hardly know when
> > it began. But I believe I must date it from my first seeing his
> > beautiful grounds at Pemberley."
>
> Katherine : Well, yes, but Elizabeth is clearly joking.? In the 1995 movie
> Elizabeth's demeanor makes this very clear, but in any case, this passage
> in the book is immediately followed by Jane's _not_ taking this seriously:
> "Another entreaty that she would be serious, however, produced the desired
> effect; and she soon satisfied Jane by her solemn assurances of
> attachment."? So no, Elizabeth did not love the big house before the man.

From profjenn12 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  5 20:16:28 2022
From: profjenn12 at gmail.com (J Woodruff)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:16:28 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Mark
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38445628510CDE47656BD183CEE49@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1649156401.26642.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38445628510CDE47656BD183CEE49@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAMGmAfL=fat3EQL7XxnqRN9NaVQcKOWuB1sdGN3qosT2A232GA@mail.gmail.com>

As I've said at a couple of tea parties - my first Bujold was *Mirror
Dance.* A most unusual introduction to both Mark and Miles. I always wanted
more Mark later. Some of my very favorite scenes in all of Bujold are his
conversations with Cordelia in MD.

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022, 9:13 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> So, Mark. He's worth a thread of his own. He's one of those
> slow-burn characters who didn't impress me much at first, but
> as we see more of him he becomes very powerful. And, like
> Miles, heartwrenching, too.
>
> He had a horrific start. First, the foster parents on JW. Those
> people raised children, knowing the children were going to be
> killed. They made sure the doomed children did well physically,
> but had no interest in them emotionally, educationally or spiritually.
> They were just a commodity. Mark sow how he was treated so
> differently to the others, and he knew what was going to happen
> to all his foster-sibs. All the children he grew up with are probably
> long dead now.
>
> Also, during his childhood, he was subjected to constant painful
> surgeries. He had no control over his life, at all. He was forced to
> learn all about Miles's life, without being able to live it. He must have
> HATED Miles, and all of them.
>
> Then Galen, psycho to the hilt, and more torture.
>
> The moment when he killed Galen started his new life - and wow is
> that a huge psychological whammy.
>
> And he so wanted to finally meet his genetic family from a position
> of strength, instead of which it all went so horrifically wrong, and he
> got Miles killed. But they still didn't turn on him - no wonder he was
> finally in awe of those people.
>
> Mark and Miles have a lovely/strange/touching relationship. Miles is
> very protective of Mark, not wanting Mark to blame himself for MIles's
> seizures. Mark tries so hard to seem a bit distant, but he really wants
> a good relationship with Miles. Fraternal/parental bonds there.
>
> And Kareen is so protective of Mark, so involved with his progress. Is
> he a slightly safer version of Miles?
>
> There's so much going on with Mark. And as we see more of him, he's
> so touching, so tentative in some ways, learning fast and confidently in
> others. He and Kareen are such a great couple. How well would Mark
> have progressed without her? She's his link to humanity.
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to profjenn12 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Tue Apr  5 20:32:37 2022
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:32:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 Pt 2 - effect of Pemberley
In-Reply-To: <CAA6AESkDY2=Co0tSjXVkrhoU2n-49HXL5+t_qb3SaXtMd4wB=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA6AESkDY2=Co0tSjXVkrhoU2n-49HXL5+t_qb3SaXtMd4wB=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204051517180.727@pannier.local>

On Tue, 5 Apr 2022, John Lennard wrote:
> John : Say rather an inhering resonance, because in Austen generally a
> man's architecture and grounds serve as symbolic of character -- think of
> Mr Knightly and Donwell Abbey, or the absurdities of Mr Rushworth at
> Sotherton. In P&P the contrast to Pemberley, where Elizabeth has "never
> seen a place for which nature had done more, or where natural beauty had
> been so little counteracted by an awkward taste", is both Rosings Park,
> where nature is wholly subjugated to ostentatious order, and Longbourn, as
> grossly neglected by Mr Bennet as every other responsibility he burkes :
> embodying acceptance of natural landscape (which Lady Catherine lacks),
> good taste (which Mrs Bennet lacks), and diligence (which Mr Bennet lacks),
> Pemberley is calculated to display the qualities ELizabeth comes to love in
> Mr Darcy (besides his dimples, of course).

Good points!

> For Ekaterin and Vorkosigan House something similar applies. She's seen
> Miles do the Auditorial biz, defending the Imperium and Vor ascendancy ;
> now she sees what he calls the Vor Pageant, and the House comes staffed
> with not only hot and cold running servants, but Armsmen and high security,
> the buzz of political power and presence, and a running deficit in
> maintenance, all testimony to service as well as wealth and agency. If she
> couldn't at least feel some affection for it, she'd have no business
> marrying into it, impressively outdated architecture and all.

> And of course, landscaping comes attached ...

In Komarr, Ekaterin saw/was reminded of the difficult side of Vot - to 
serve, to put yourself in danger to save others. With Vorkosigan House in 
ACC, she finally sees some of the advantages. For someone who had felt 
powerless most of her married life, this could be quite intoxicating.

Vorkosigan House and its grounds and the District are also a chance 
to spread her wings, a project that is worthy of her -- but also in an 
already-developed path so she doesn't have to create it all on her own. 
At this point, with the encouragememt of her aunt and uncle, that could be 
something she's willing to consider.

And of course, the admiration of a man like Miles who clearly has depths 
she hasn't even fully plumbed (the Dendarii uniform scene) would encourage 
her to think more optimistically.

I must still say that I think Ekaterin is overworked when we see her with 
kids in the later booka. I hope she has several nannies as backup.

Question: can we assume that galactic medicine has finally conquered most 
childhood diseases, or at least has vaccines for them? Because having 
your kids get sick is one of the major difficulties for working women...

Alayne

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca

What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich

From beatrice_otter at zoho.com  Tue Apr  5 23:35:56 2022
From: beatrice_otter at zoho.com (Beatrice Otter)
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2022 15:35:56 -0700
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 Pt 2 - effect of Pemberley
In-Reply-To: <CAA6AESkDY2=Co0tSjXVkrhoU2n-49HXL5+t_qb3SaXtMd4wB=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA6AESkDY2=Co0tSjXVkrhoU2n-49HXL5+t_qb3SaXtMd4wB=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <17ffbdec953.11726552730367.5932490893465280372@zoho.com>

---- On Tue, 05 Apr 2022 11:10:48 -0700 John Lennard <mailto:john.c.lennard at gmail.com> wrote ----

 
John : Say rather an inhering resonance, because in Austen generally a 
man's architecture and grounds serve as symbolic of character -- think of 
Mr Knightly and Donwell Abbey, or the absurdities of Mr Rushworth at 
Sotherton. In P&P the contrast to Pemberley, where Elizabeth has "never 
seen a place for which nature had done more, or where natural beauty had 
been so little counteracted by an awkward taste", is both Rosings Park, 
where nature is wholly subjugated to ostentatious order, and Longbourn, as 
grossly neglected by Mr Bennet as every other responsibility he burkes : 
embodying acceptance of natural landscape (which Lady Catherine lacks), 
good taste (which Mrs Bennet lacks), and diligence (which Mr Bennet lacks), 
Pemberley is calculated to display the qualities ELizabeth comes to love in 
Mr Darcy (besides his dimples, of course). 
 
For Ekaterin and Vorkosigan House something similar applies. She's seen 
Miles do the Auditorial biz, defending the Imperium and Vor ascendancy ; 
now she sees what he calls the Vor Pageant, and the House comes staffed 
with not only hot and cold running servants, but Armsmen and high security, 
the buzz of political power and presence, and a running deficit in 
maintenance, all testimony to service as well as wealth and agency. If she 
couldn't at least feel some affection for it, she'd have no business 
marrying into it, impressively outdated architecture and all. 
 
And of course, landscaping comes attached ...



Beatrice Otter:

The other thing is that Pemberly is where Elizabeth sees the people who Darcy has power over: his sister and his servants. In Austen's novels, the stolid unromantic but trustworthy well-known guy is always a better choice than the flashy, romantic, swoonworthy outsider whose character you do not know. This is why Fanny chooses Edmund instead of Henry Crawford, why Marianne marries Colonel Brandon instead of Willoughby, why Elizabeth marries Darcy instead of Wickham. The handsome, romantic, swoon-worthy outsider may be a good man and a good husband ... but he may be an irresponsible philandering rake, and *you don't know until it's too late*. You're much better off choosing someone you know and can trust. Austen's happy ending is not "a grand romance," it's "a safe, stable, and happy life for the heroine with a trustworthy and thoughtful man." When you read Elizabeth's visit to Pemberly next time, look at how much she listens to the housekeeper Mrs. Reynolds talking about how awesome her master is. Mrs. Reynolds is an intelligent, respectable woman, she'd know if there was a problem: if Darcy was abusive or neglectful or a bad landlord and master in any way. She wouldn't necessarily talk about how awful he is to total strangers ... but she wouldn't praise him. She doesn't *have* to talk about how good he is, but she does. That's a great character reference. And there's also how Darcy treats his sister. His young, vulnerable sister who is wholly in his care. Elizabeth has a *great* opportunity to judge if this is a man who can be trusted with power over her by seeing how he treats others he has power over. And she learns that yes, he is thoughtful and kind to people he has power over, he fulfills his obligations and takes care of things and is good at managing what he has inherited. He would be a good husband to her and father to their children. Does she love him for his house? No, that's a joke. But what she learned about him from his house (and the people living there) goes a long way to showing that he would be a good husband.



And I think it's the same with Ekaterin. For all she knows, Miles was manipulating her on Komarr. Probably not, because that was such high-stakes high-pressure situation, but he could be! He could be a drastically different person than he seemed to be! He could be a lot worse. She's only known him for a short period of time, and her trust was well and truly broken by Tien. (He probably didn't seem bad to begin with, either.) But while at Vorkosigan house, she meets people who have known him for years, people he has power over, people who know where all the bodies would be buried if there are any. *And they genuinely like and respect him*. He treats them well. It's a hell of a character reference.



Beatrice Otter

From a_neff at bellsouth.net  Wed Apr  6 01:37:18 2022
From: a_neff at bellsouth.net (a_neff at bellsouth.net)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 19:37:18 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 Pt 2 - effect of Pemberley
In-Reply-To: <17ffbdec953.11726552730367.5932490893465280372@zoho.com>
References: <CAA6AESkDY2=Co0tSjXVkrhoU2n-49HXL5+t_qb3SaXtMd4wB=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <17ffbdec953.11726552730367.5932490893465280372@zoho.com>
Message-ID: <00f501d8494e$795044d0$6bf0ce70$@bellsouth.net>

And remember Nikki.  Not only was Miles willing to have genuine
conversations with him, but all the servants were friendly to him, even
becoming good friends with Pym's son.  The comfort of socializing and
friendship across classes is not common, and certainly not what Tien or her
brother expected.  Nikki was at home there long before Ekaterin was. That
must have spoken to her strongly.

-----Original Message-----
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> On Behalf Of
Beatrice Otter via Lois-Bujold
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2022 5:36 PM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold.
<lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Cc: Beatrice Otter <beatrice_otter at zoho.com>
Subject: Re: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 Pt 2 - effect of Pemberley

Beatrice Otter:

snip

And I think it's the same with Ekaterin. For all she knows, Miles was
manipulating her on Komarr. Probably not, because that was such high-stakes
high-pressure situation, but he could be! He could be a drastically
different person than he seemed to be! He could be a lot worse. She's only
known him for a short period of time, and her trust was well and truly
broken by Tien. (He probably didn't seem bad to begin with, either.) But
while at Vorkosigan house, she meets people who have known him for years,
people he has power over, people who know where all the bodies would be
buried if there are any. *And they genuinely like and respect him*. He
treats them well. It's a hell of a character reference.





From ravenclaweric at gmail.com  Wed Apr  6 00:55:02 2022
From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 18:55:02 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 Pt 2 - effect of Pemberley
In-Reply-To: <00f501d8494e$795044d0$6bf0ce70$@bellsouth.net>
References: <CAA6AESkDY2=Co0tSjXVkrhoU2n-49HXL5+t_qb3SaXtMd4wB=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <17ffbdec953.11726552730367.5932490893465280372@zoho.com>
 <00f501d8494e$795044d0$6bf0ce70$@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <CAO7QBz9WLeqPHVB0+-3r=m848bL=Jm3A=geegkJ8sMkVzt7hWw@mail.gmail.com>

"Judging by architecture" is not just found in those novels.  In
Hogarth's *Marriage
a la Mode*, the rich merchant's new mansion, seen a-building in the
background of the first painting, is an eyesore and architectural mess,
with several different orders of Classical-style columns.  It's also
already tumbling down due to slip-shod construction.

Hogarth meant that as one of many little things he put into the painting to
indicate that the marriage would not turn out well.

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 6:37 PM <a_neff at bellsouth.net> wrote:

> And remember Nikki.  Not only was Miles willing to have genuine
> conversations with him, but all the servants were friendly to him, even
> becoming good friends with Pym's son.  The comfort of socializing and
> friendship across classes is not common, and certainly not what Tien or her
> brother expected.  Nikki was at home there long before Ekaterin was. That
> must have spoken to her strongly.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> On Behalf Of
> Beatrice Otter via Lois-Bujold
> Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2022 5:36 PM
> To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold.
> <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
> Cc: Beatrice Otter <beatrice_otter at zoho.com>
> Subject: Re: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 Pt 2 - effect of Pemberley
>
> Beatrice Otter:
>
> snip
>
> And I think it's the same with Ekaterin. For all she knows, Miles was
> manipulating her on Komarr. Probably not, because that was such high-stakes
> high-pressure situation, but he could be! He could be a drastically
> different person than he seemed to be! He could be a lot worse. She's only
> known him for a short period of time, and her trust was well and truly
> broken by Tien. (He probably didn't seem bad to begin with, either.) But
> while at Vorkosigan house, she meets people who have known him for years,
> people he has power over, people who know where all the bodies would be
> buried if there are any. *And they genuinely like and respect him*. He
> treats them well. It's a hell of a character reference.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From pouncer at aol.com  Wed Apr  6 03:33:47 2022
From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 21:33:47 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Vorvolk (barely mentioned in) the 3rd interval
References: <f5c99ad5-e307-310a-246b-b82621f80087.ref@aol.com>
Message-ID: <f5c99ad5-e307-310a-246b-b82621f80087@aol.com>

So Miles has finished explaining how he abandoned
stuff to save people from Jackson's Whole. Illyan
asks after "the wolf girl" but not the four-handed
dulcimer player.

Illyan then demands a more thorough description of
events at Dagoola.  "... the only report I had from you
... was that, er, excessively succinct one you filed
from Mahata Solaris."

The delay between Miles's mission and reporting
back to Barrayar is "at any rate, not a problem for
Count Vorvolk."

So.  Again Miles is writing and filing reports that even
Illyan considered too short to be useful.  Miles
indicated he expects to follow up written reports, with
much fuller verbal reports -- whenever he gets around
to it, and gets back home.  Face to face. That is, he
expected to get away with skimpy and belated reports.

A bad baaaaadddd habit established here. Excessively
succinct. Delayed face time. Consequences.  The first
few chapters of  _Memory_ all foreshadowed here in a
throwaway interval piece of less than two pages.



-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net  Wed Apr  6 04:00:13 2022
From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 20:00:13 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Vorvolk (barely mentioned in) the 3rd interval
In-Reply-To: <f5c99ad5-e307-310a-246b-b82621f80087@aol.com>
References: <f5c99ad5-e307-310a-246b-b82621f80087.ref@aol.com>
 <f5c99ad5-e307-310a-246b-b82621f80087@aol.com>
Message-ID: <A72CD1B9-E61C-4D1D-93AA-7BCBB4E9325C@comcast.net>



> On Apr 5, 2022, at 7:33 PM, Pouncer via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> So Miles has finished explaining how he abandoned
> stuff to save people from Jackson's Whole. Illyan
> asks after "the wolf girl" but not the four-handed
> dulcimer player.
> 
> Illyan then demands a more thorough description of
> events at Dagoola.  "... the only report I had from you
> ... was that, er, excessively succinct one you filed
> from Mahata Solaris."
> 
> The delay between Miles's mission and reporting
> back to Barrayar is "at any rate, not a problem for
> Count Vorvolk."
> 
> So.  Again Miles is writing and filing reports that even
> Illyan considered too short to be useful.  Miles
> indicated he expects to follow up written reports, with
> much fuller verbal reports -- whenever he gets around
> to it, and gets back home.  Face to face. That is, he
> expected to get away with skimpy and belated reports.
> 

I will point out that the events of ?Borders of Infinity? took place immediately before _Brothers in Arms_ (where the Dendarii had just escaped from vengeful squadrons of the Cetagandan Navy). And after that, Miles and the Dendarii was immediately sent on a rescue mission, which he just returned from, with shattered limbs.


"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
?-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com


From listmail at gordonj.net  Wed Apr  6 11:43:04 2022
From: listmail at gordonj.net (Gordon Jackson)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2022 11:43:04 +0100
Subject: [LMB] New Rivers of London
Message-ID: <000001d849a3$1a3816d0$4ea84470$@gordonj.net>

Yay, the new RoL book, "Amongst Our Weapons" dropped through my mailbox just now. It's the signed Waterstone's edition and has turned up 1 day prior to official release.





From fishman at panix.com  Wed Apr  6 13:44:43 2022
From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman)
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2022 12:44:43 +0000
Subject: [LMB] New Rivers of London
In-Reply-To: <000001d849a3$1a3816d0$4ea84470$@gordonj.net>
References: <000001d849a3$1a3816d0$4ea84470$@gordonj.net>
Message-ID: <em32aaa288-741e-4c72-82b9-384c6431184b@desktop-ckcgfo5>

It is going to be released in the U.S. next Tuesday, the twelfth. It 
should appear on my Kindle then. Enjoy!!!

Harvey

------ Original Message ------
From: "Gordon Jackson" <listmail at gordonj.net>
To: "'Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold.'" 
<lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Bcc: fishman at panix.com
Sent: 4/6/2022 6:43:04 AM
Subject: [LMB] New Rivers of London

>Yay, the new RoL book, "Amongst Our Weapons" dropped through my mailbox just now. It's the signed Waterstone's edition and has turned up 1 day prior to official release.
>
>
>
>
>--
>Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com
>Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
>http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold



From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Wed Apr  6 16:44:31 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2022 15:44:31 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 - Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649242801.19503.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649242801.19503.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844019473B261B8EC793DA3CEE79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



So, we have some of the most important people in the Empire in one
room: the Emperor, his soon-to-be-Empress, the head of security at the
Residence, the head of Komarran Affairs, an Auditor, the most powerful
woman in the Empire... and Ivan. He's the lowest-ranking officer there,
and the least powerful person, and he's completely unfazed by it all. He's
also able to say the things that the others can't (like the Greekie hicks
comment.)

There's also so much wry humour; the conference room is the nicest
one that Miles has ever been trapped in. And of course,
"You people can't be SERIOUS!"
Oh, have we got to page twelve already....

Miles is daydreaming about his own wedding. Considering the woman
doesn't even know he's wooing her, he's being a bit forward with it all.

Gregor and Laisa are so cute, they drift off into just being in love with
each other. I commented earlier that Miles has lived without privacy,
it's the same for Gregor, only worse. Most of the people around the
table are family; Duv and Lord Vortala have each perfected Ivan's
ability to become invisible when necessary.

Alys is controlling them with an iron will. This is the last of her time
as top woman in the Empire, and give her credit - she's dealing with
it incredibly gracefully. The wedding is going to be perfect. Or else.

Laisa is understandably unenthusiastic about being displayed,
naked, to all the wedding guests. Some traditions are best left
in the past (although, let's face it, it would make weddings so much
more ... um... interesting ... if the bride and groom had to... never
mind.) They work out a suitable alternative, with help from Miles
who, like Ivan, can say the things that other people can't.

Ivan helpfully points out that during the medical examination that's
replaced the naked display, they can get some tranquilisers - which
they'll need for the day. Well, at least he breaks the tension.

Miles and Ivan also do some nursery-level verbal sparring; again
Ivan is totally unbothered by the company. (He's a breath of fresh
air, really.) Miles also manages to invite Duv to a dinner party to
welcome Kareen home. Yes, this is definitely a family meeting,
for most of the people there.

Duv helps Miles slide away from any jobs to do with the media.
(Well, this is going out to the Nexus - there's going to be plenty
of people saying, "Look there, in the background, doesn't that
look like...?"  Besides, putting him in charge of the media is like
 letting him juggle nitroglycerin - just imagine what he'd tell them.
Yes, normally he'd be Auditorial and trustworthy. But by the time
the wedding hits they'll all be worn to a frazzle.)

Discussion wanders to the Vorbretten case. Oops, a Cetagandan
in the family tree (ironic that Rene's finest qualities - musical
ability, languages, good looks) come from the Cetagandan side.
They speculate about the Countess's reasons for the liaison;
love, advantage, force. Outside that room, plenty of people are
probably wondering exactly the same about Laisa.

Discussion drifts from Rene's problem to Lord Midnight, the horse
that was made a Count's heir. The Barrayarans discuss the legal
precedent. The Komarrans think they're all insane, but hide it well.

Interesting note here: after the wedding the Counts all take oath
to Laisa. So even though she's a woman, being an Empress definitely
brings a lot of power.

Miles of course gets the job of dropping hints to Rene and Sigur
about the need for best behaviour at The Wedding. Having Miles
as an Auditor is massively useful for Gregor; the family link means
that he can be used for all sorts of awkward jobs that probably
wouldn't be given to any other Auditor (or, if they were, it'd make
them far more official.)

Cordelia probably won't come back early to help with the wedding:
she suggested elopement. Gregor and Laisa seem to think that's
a good idea, firmly squashed by Alys, who thinks the wedding is
making Cordelia very Betan (just what are Betan wedding customs,
anyway? They probably wouldn't be at all bothered by the tradition
of nudity in Barrayaran weddings.)

Discussion of the fireworks pleases all the Barrayarans. This culture
does love things that explode.

Miles and Ivan have to make another sacrifice for the Empire, and
attend some of the official dinners, in place of Gregor.

Ivan suggests Mark take on the duty; after all, he's good at eating.
Miles thinks about Mark's other talent - assassination (which would
also be useful on Barrayar.) Alys pulls Ivan back into line again.

"It was a joke," Ivan muttered defensively. "How do you expect us to all get through this alive if we're not allowed to have a sense of humor?"

"Exert yourself," his mother advised him brutally.






From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Wed Apr  6 16:59:54 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2022 15:59:54 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649242801.19503.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649242801.19503.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844C4239D878E0791126F83CEE79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



First and foremost: the green silk room. Right at the beginning of
the saga Aral tells Cordelia, bitterly, about men sitting in green silk
rooms plotting the deaths of thousands: Ezar and others planning
the Escobaran invasion. I know there's a room in Vorkosigan House
that's similar, but here we are in the Residence, in a green silk room.
Probably THE room. And instead of a terrible invasion, it's all about
a wedding. They've come a long way in thirty years; Barrayar is a
very different place now.

I love Ivan's comments throughout; he's right about the need for
a little humour to leaven the tension. He's also able to say things
simpler and faster than everyone else's careful politeness. And,
possibly most important, he's a useful chew toy for Alys; she can
work off some of that tension on Ivan - she'd never be able
to treat any other assistant the same way.

I like Alys here; this is the end of her status and power, but she's
totally supportive, and very graceful about it all. And iron-clad
determined to get things done properly. Or else. And Gregor
knows better than to disobey.

I have a lot of respect for Laisa here, too. She was all starry-
eyed about the romance of Barrayar, but I think that she's
seeing things very differently now. And she still loves Gregor!
But watching all this must be so strange, almost unreal.

The tone of the meeting is very much that of a family, possibly
a family business. Lord Vortala and Duv manage to become
invisible when necessary (and Duv is going to be part of the
extended family soon, anyway).

Rene and his Cetagandan DNA: should he be allowed to stay
as Count? Is possession nine-tenths of the law? And the problem
was generations ago, is there some statute of limitations on
bonking-related problems? He's doing a great job as Count; would
anyone bother to help him if he wasn't a hardworking Progressive?

From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Wed Apr  6 18:12:47 2022
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2022 13:12:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 - Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844019473B261B8EC793DA3CEE79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1649242801.19503.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844019473B261B8EC793DA3CEE79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204061300470.9382@pannier.local>

Great precis as usual, Gwynne.

I love how the scene is set in this chapter.

On Wed, 6 Apr 2022, Gwynne Powell wrote:
> Alys is controlling them with an iron will. This is the last of her time
> as top woman in the Empire, and give her credit - she's dealing with
> it incredibly gracefully. The wedding is going to be perfect. Or else.

Even for someone who enjoys the social scene, Alys has had a VERY LONG 
period doing this. Starting when Gregor was 7 or 8? til now when he's 34? 
So that's more than 25 years! Even in the Barrayaran military, 20 years is 
considered a reasonable hitch after which one moves up or out.

> Discussion wanders to the Vorbretten case. Oops, a Cetagandan
> in the family tree (ironic that Rene's finest qualities - musical
> ability, languages, good looks) come from the Cetagandan side.

I would argue that those are "abilities", not "qualities". Rene's 
qualities are dependability and commitment to his work as Count and to 
his District, loyalty to Barrayar, and love of and faithfulness to his 
wife.

> They speculate about the Countess's reasons for the liaison;
> love, advantage, force. Outside that room, plenty of people are
> probably wondering exactly the same about Laisa.

Maybe it's simply that Laisa likes Gregor - and likes a challenge.

> Interesting note here: after the wedding the Counts all take oath
> to Laisa. So even though she's a woman, being an Empress definitely
> brings a lot of power.

Good point.

> Miles of course gets the job of dropping hints to Rene and Sigur
> about the need for best behaviour at The Wedding. Having Miles
> as an Auditor is massively useful for Gregor; the family link means
> that he can be used for all sorts of awkward jobs that probably
> wouldn't be given to any other Auditor (or, if they were, it'd make
> them far more official.)

Good point.

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca

What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich

From domelouann at gmail.com  Wed Apr  6 19:24:02 2022
From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2022 13:24:02 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Vorvolk (barely mentioned in) the 3rd interval
In-Reply-To: <f5c99ad5-e307-310a-246b-b82621f80087@aol.com>
References: <f5c99ad5-e307-310a-246b-b82621f80087.ref@aol.com>
 <f5c99ad5-e307-310a-246b-b82621f80087@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAGqU+dhhe5yKAoRjyukWSEYeZ_fb=pNG67hzjjCbWBF2wa-tLg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 9:34 PM Pouncer via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

>
> A bad baaaaadddd habit established here. Excessively
> succinct [report]. Delayed face time. Consequences.  The first
> few chapters of  _Memory_ all foreshadowed here in a
> throwaway interval piece of less than two pages.
>

Character is destiny for Miles.

From tzbarasc at lasierra.edu  Wed Apr  6 20:27:55 2022
From: tzbarasc at lasierra.edu (Tony Zbaraschuk)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2022 14:27:55 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844C4239D878E0791126F83CEE79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1649242801.19503.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844C4239D878E0791126F83CEE79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CA+x2q7tXg3LgR+EaSL7YYMRwWrdEwM9e1y_LRQiXZ6a_j+YnyQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 11:00 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> I like Alys here; this is the end of her status and power, but she's
> totally supportive, and very graceful about it all. And iron-clad
> determined to get things done properly. Or else. And Gregor
> knows better than to disobey.
>

One of the things that I think the Vor do understand is that you have a
role, and part of the role is to train the next holder of the role.  Alys
is passing the torch, not extinguishing the flame.  I don't think she's
going to entirely lose status and power here.  Laisa will be the new female
center of the court, and assume some Imperial roles from Gregor and from
the past (and probably some new ones of her own creation), but Alys will
not cease to have the connections she has, will probably keep part of her
official role as social secretary -- we will see her doing some of this in
CVA, for instance.

Very true on the iron in her, though.

I have a lot of respect for Laisa here, too. She was all starry-
> eyed about the romance of Barrayar, but I think that she's
> seeing things very differently now. And she still loves Gregor!
> But watching all this must be so strange, almost unreal.
>

Totally in agreement.


Tony Z


-- 
Tony Zbaraschuk
Bookworm, talker, learner
Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!"

From tzbarasc at lasierra.edu  Wed Apr  6 20:34:55 2022
From: tzbarasc at lasierra.edu (Tony Zbaraschuk)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2022 14:34:55 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 - Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844019473B261B8EC793DA3CEE79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1649242801.19503.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844019473B261B8EC793DA3CEE79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CA+x2q7thS76sfxrNT-tLw3O1EK42A_Ob00u0CzysgM8Rn8QfBw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 10:44 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> So, we have some of the most important people in the Empire in one
> room: the Emperor, his soon-to-be-Empress, the head of security at the
> Residence, the head of Komarran Affairs, an Auditor, the most powerful
> woman in the Empire... and Ivan. He's the lowest-ranking officer there,
> and the least powerful person,


Um.  Maybe officially.  But Ivan is not here because of rank or power; he's
here because he and Miles are family, Gregor's next-in-line heirs
(according to at least some Barrayaran succession theories).  Social power
is a different sort of power than rank or ministerial standing, but it's
not less real.


> and he's completely unfazed by it all. He's
> also able to say the things that the others can't (like the Greekie hicks
> comment.)
>

There's a thought.  Ivan as court jester, saying the true things no one
else can say.  (I don't think Gregor is the sort of autocrat to whom _only_
the court jester can say true things, though.)


> Interesting note here: after the wedding the Counts all take oath
> to Laisa. So even though she's a woman, being an Empress definitely
> brings a lot of power.
>

Yes, and I think part of Laisa's job is going to be restoring and/or
redefining what the Empress does.  Barrayar hasn't had an Empress in, what,
forty or fifty years?  Precedent and custom are both going to be a little
bit rusty.  (I'm thinking of 1901 in England - when Victoria died, scarcely
anyone even remembered how a coronation was supposed to work...)

Tony Z


-- 
Tony Zbaraschuk
Bookworm, talker, learner
Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!"

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Thu Apr  7 01:33:51 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 00:33:51 +0000
Subject: [LMB] New Rivers of London
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649242801.19503.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649242801.19503.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38448BA43BC907C345502174CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: "Gordon Jackson" <listmail at gordonj.net>


Yay, the new RoL book, "Amongst Our Weapons" dropped through my mailbox just now. It's the signed Waterstone's edition and has turned up 1 day prior to official release.

Gwynne: I read this and thought, "Oh, I'd better go and see about getting
that." And just then my email dinged, and it was amazon telling me they'd
delivered it to my Kindle. Apparently I preordered it ages ago. I wish I was
organised enough to realise that I'm organised.

From fishman at panix.com  Thu Apr  7 01:39:55 2022
From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman)
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 00:39:55 +0000
Subject: [LMB] New Rivers of London
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38448BA43BC907C345502174CEE69@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.1.1649242801.19503.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38448BA43BC907C345502174CEE69@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <em19383de9-5edf-4012-b79f-5743fdabd475@desktop-ckcgfo5>

I am jealous!!! I will not get mine until next Tuesday. l-(

Harvey

------ Original Message ------
From: "Gwynne Powell" <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
To: "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk" <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Bcc: fishman at panix.com
Sent: 4/6/2022 8:33:51 PM
Subject: [LMB] New Rivers of London

>From: "Gordon Jackson" <listmail at gordonj.net>
>
>
>Yay, the new RoL book, "Amongst Our Weapons" dropped through my mailbox just now. It's the signed Waterstone's edition and has turned up 1 day prior to official release.
>
>Gwynne: I read this and thought, "Oh, I'd better go and see about getting
>that." And just then my email dinged, and it was amazon telling me they'd
>delivered it to my Kindle. Apparently I preordered it ages ago. I wish I was
>organised enough to realise that I'm organised.
>--
>Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com
>Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
>http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold



From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Thu Apr  7 01:43:52 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 00:43:52 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1788.1649273714.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1788.1649273714.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384489F507813BE2A3F91DEBCEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Tony Zbaraschuk <tzbarasc at lasierra.edu>

One of the things that I think the Vor do understand is that you have a
role, and part of the role is to train the next holder of the role.  Alys
is passing the torch, not extinguishing the flame.  I don't think she's
going to entirely lose status and power here.  Laisa will be the new female
center of the court, and assume some Imperial roles from Gregor and from
the past (and probably some new ones of her own creation), but Alys will
not cease to have the connections she has, will probably keep part of her
official role as social secretary -- we will see her doing some of this in
CVA, for instance.

Gwynne: There's also a sense of generational change: Rene is married to
a very young Countess. Miles is daydreaming about Ekaterin. There's a
new younger generation of Countesses and High Vor Ladies coming through,
and Laisa will lead the charge.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Thu Apr  7 01:47:22 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 00:47:22 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 - Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1788.1649273714.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1788.1649273714.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38445A23646ED77E94E2D7CCCEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Tony Zbaraschuk <tzbarasc at lasierra.edu>

On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 10:44 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> So, we have some of the most important people in the Empire in one
> room: the Emperor, his soon-to-be-Empress, the head of security at the
> Residence, the head of Komarran Affairs, an Auditor, the most powerful
> woman in the Empire... and Ivan. He's the lowest-ranking officer there,
> and the least powerful person,


Um.  Maybe officially.  But Ivan is not here because of rank or power; he's
here because he and Miles are family, Gregor's next-in-line heirs
(according to at least some Barrayaran succession theories).  Social power
is a different sort of power than rank or ministerial standing, but it's
not less real.

Gwynne: The military men both outrank him. Gregor and Miles are
both ahead of him in the line for the campstool. Laisa is prospective
Empress, and Alys is his mother. Outside this room he is certainly
recognised as having particular status, but inside this room he's the
lowest present.


> Interesting note here: after the wedding the Counts all take oath
> to Laisa. So even though she's a woman, being an Empress definitely
> brings a lot of power.
>

Yes, and I think part of Laisa's job is going to be restoring and/or
redefining what the Empress does.  Barrayar hasn't had an Empress in, what,
forty or fifty years?  Precedent and custom are both going to be a little
bit rusty.  (I'm thinking of 1901 in England - when Victoria died, scarcely
anyone even remembered how a coronation was supposed to work...)

Gwynne: Miles could teach her about the power of that; when the
job is whatever you say it is, you have a massive amount of power
and possibility.

From sylviamcivers at gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 02:55:45 2022
From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2022 21:55:45 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 Pt 2 - effect of Pemberley
In-Reply-To: <17ffbdec953.11726552730367.5932490893465280372@zoho.com>
References: <CAA6AESkDY2=Co0tSjXVkrhoU2n-49HXL5+t_qb3SaXtMd4wB=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <17ffbdec953.11726552730367.5932490893465280372@zoho.com>
Message-ID: <CAD6Rr-whYQyqRCDzjrEOygOkRgO-qt9N70LRcd_DuWGgs-3FRg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 6:36 PM Beatrice Otter via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

> ---- On Tue, 05 Apr 2022 11:10:48 -0700 John Lennard <mailto:
> john.c.lennard at gmail.com> wrote ----
>
> .... Elizabeth has a *great* opportunity to judge if this is a man who can
> be trusted with power over her by seeing how he treats others he has power
> over.  ...
>

I think people today have mostly glossed over just how little power women
had over themselves at that point in time.

>
> And I think it's the same with Ekaterin. For all she knows, Miles was
> manipulating her on Komarr. .... She's only known him for a short period of
> time, and her trust was well and truly broken by Tien. (He probably didn't
> seem bad to begin with, either.) But while at Vorkosigan house, she meets
> people who have known him for years, people he has power over, people who
> know where all the bodies would be buried if there are any. *And they
> genuinely like and respect him*. He treats them well. It's a hell of a
> character reference.
>
>

You can tell people's true character not by how they behave to
their overlings, but by how they behave to their underlings.

Sylvia
Is overlings a word? What's the parallel to underligns?

From sylviamcivers at gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 02:57:22 2022
From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2022 21:57:22 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <F1DD816E-B652-4FA7-AB32-A6DFC6BAE9AF@hamilton.edu>
References: <c4c05ee1-d56e-3482-4347-9460579096b1.ref@aol.com>
 <c4c05ee1-d56e-3482-4347-9460579096b1@aol.com>
 <F1DD816E-B652-4FA7-AB32-A6DFC6BAE9AF@hamilton.edu>
Message-ID: <CAD6Rr-zBgiLcd=NORD44dyZMC9xttKmVhn-KxtLkOqpe-vg7XQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 10:28 AM Katherine Collett <kcollett at hamilton.edu>
wrote:

> (complete snippage)
> Katherine, erstwhile teacher of English literature to first-years
> --
>

What age is that?
In Hogwarts, the eleven year olds were "firsties"  but I suspect that's not
what you mean.

From proto at panix.com  Thu Apr  7 10:32:38 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 05:32:38 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <CA+x2q7tXg3LgR+EaSL7YYMRwWrdEwM9e1y_LRQiXZ6a_j+YnyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1649242801.19503.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844C4239D878E0791126F83CEE79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CA+x2q7tXg3LgR+EaSL7YYMRwWrdEwM9e1y_LRQiXZ6a_j+YnyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B592637F-C01B-41AA-AA0E-8BFCA8EC9B59@panix.com>



> On Apr 6, 2022, at 3:27 PM, Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Alys
> is passing the torch, not extinguishing the flame.  I don't think she's
> going to entirely lose status and power here.  Laisa will be the new female
> center of the court, and assume some Imperial roles from Gregor and from
> the past (and probably some new ones of her own creation), but Alys will
> not cease to have the connections she has, will probably keep part of her
> official role as social secretary -- we will see her doing some of this in
> CVA, for instance.

Remember at that level power is a burden. For examples, Ivan can say
things no one else can, in the marriage planning committee. Miles frequently
has to watch his mouth after becoming Auditor, because his casual suggestions
can be taken as orders.

Also power held for a long time causes brain damage, Particularly loss of empathy and
never having to accept negative feedback, usually non is offered by your subordinates.
Moral ? if you do acquire great
power, be sure to keep people around who can tell you that you are full of feces and
listen well to them. Miles fell into the power trap when he refused to listen to Quin,
who was just saying common sense. Now he has Ekaterine to hold his coke chain,
and Gregor, of course.

It is a wonder that the Gregor manages to hold up so well.



? 
In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. 
Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over."
--tweet by British columnist, Dan Hodges, June 15, 2015?


From proto at panix.com  Thu Apr  7 10:48:40 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 05:48:40 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB384489F507813BE2A3F91DEBCEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1788.1649273714.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384489F507813BE2A3F91DEBCEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <692C40E4-E730-4D47-B213-A710C43C0808@panix.com>



> On Apr 6, 2022, at 8:43 PM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Gwynne: There's also a sense of generational change: Rene is married to
> a very young Countess. Miles is daydreaming about Ekaterin. There's a
> new younger generation of Countesses and High Vor Ladies coming through,
> and Laisa will lead the charge.

No doubt, many family members of the High Vor will marry proles or Komarrans
or Segyarans or galactics.

?
"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light."
 - Attributed to Plato







From proto at panix.com  Thu Apr  7 10:56:09 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 05:56:09 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 - Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38445A23646ED77E94E2D7CCCEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1788.1649273714.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38445A23646ED77E94E2D7CCCEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <C07CDBFD-91EA-4109-A49E-69C37948C783@panix.com>



> On Apr 6, 2022, at 8:47 PM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Gwynne: Miles could teach her about the power of that; when the
> job is whatever you say it is, you have a massive amount of power
> and possibility.

His job is what The Gregor says it is.

? 
In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. 
Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over."
--tweet by British columnist, Dan Hodges, June 15, 2015?


From wawenri at msn.com  Thu Apr  7 11:47:20 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 10:47:20 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <B592637F-C01B-41AA-AA0E-8BFCA8EC9B59@panix.com>
References: <mailman.1.1649242801.19503.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844C4239D878E0791126F83CEE79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CA+x2q7tXg3LgR+EaSL7YYMRwWrdEwM9e1y_LRQiXZ6a_j+YnyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <B592637F-C01B-41AA-AA0E-8BFCA8EC9B59@panix.com>
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB48476C70F3914723018CF81AB4E69@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

Remember the ?Yes, Sire.? Conversation Miles had with Gregor? A subtext could be Miles reminding Gregor that, while he was in a position to disagree (as a foster brother), Gregor had really already made up his mind.

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.

________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 7, 2022 3:32:38 AM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 Pt 2 - Comments



> On Apr 6, 2022, at 3:27 PM, Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Alys
> is passing the torch, not extinguishing the flame.  I don't think she's
> going to entirely lose status and power here.  Laisa will be the new female
> center of the court, and assume some Imperial roles from Gregor and from
> the past (and probably some new ones of her own creation), but Alys will
> not cease to have the connections she has, will probably keep part of her
> official role as social secretary -- we will see her doing some of this in
> CVA, for instance.

Remember at that level power is a burden. For examples, Ivan can say
things no one else can, in the marriage planning committee. Miles frequently
has to watch his mouth after becoming Auditor, because his casual suggestions
can be taken as orders.

Also power held for a long time causes brain damage, Particularly loss of empathy and
never having to accept negative feedback, usually non is offered by your subordinates.
Moral ? if you do acquire great
power, be sure to keep people around who can tell you that you are full of feces and
listen well to them. Miles fell into the power trap when he refused to listen to Quin,
who was just saying common sense. Now he has Ekaterine to hold his coke chain,
and Gregor, of course.

It is a wonder that the Gregor manages to hold up so well.



?
In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate.
Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over."
--tweet by British columnist, Dan Hodges, June 15, 2015?

--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7C210e886eb03f43e742b808da187992fb%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637849207690304585%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=nMzKNCuoOuoL0G4UavKH8XUhvpWWF2U2WC4n%2F%2BAFGeg%3D&amp;reserved=0

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Thu Apr  7 11:58:20 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 10:58:20 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1796.1649323964.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1796.1649323964.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38449FA8397AB46928DAA5E9CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com>

Remember at that level power is a burden. For examples, Ivan can say
things no one else can, in the marriage planning committee. Miles frequently
has to watch his mouth after becoming Auditor, because his casual suggestions
can be taken as orders.
.......
It is a wonder that the Gregor manages to hold up so well.

Gwynne: I think Aral, and especially Cordelia, deserve massive respect
and congratulations for the way they raised Gregor. He's still very close
to them both in Memory and ACC, especially Cordelia - he even asks Miles
to add his own entreaties to Gregor's, to try to get her to come back to
Barrayar as soon as possible, just because... sometimes a young man needs
his mum's advice and support. And somehow they raised a good man,
with strength of character. Another factor is probably that he's terrified of
being like Serg, and Yuri. So he's always super-careful to avoid acting
without serious and calm thought.

I wonder if he sometimes goes down to a deep cellar in the Residence and
just does a few minutes of primal screaming, then comes back all clear and
calm ready for the next day.



From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Thu Apr  7 12:06:30 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:06:30 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: Quick warning
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649329201.9576.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649329201.9576.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844D73056B03249E61C61E3CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>


If I vanish for a while, or the ACC posts pause, it might be due to
problems with wifi and power; the river has risen more than four
metres in four hours, it's just shooting up so fast. I'll be fine and
safe from floodwaters, but if the power goes out it could take days
to get it back again, and if the wifi has problems - who knows. It'll
probably all be fine and there'll be no drama at all. But if there's a
delay, well, normal transmission will resume as soon as possible.

Of course, OTOH I could be stranded at home with no way of going
anywhere for a few days, in which case posting frequency could
increase!

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Thu Apr  7 12:46:58 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:46:58 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 - Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649329201.9576.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649329201.9576.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844847CD64A2018D01B11B6CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com>

> Gwynne: Miles could teach her about the power of that; when the
> job is whatever you say it is, you have a massive amount of power
> and possibility.

His jo>b is what The Gregor says it is.

Gwynne: True, but Miles has a way of adding extras - look at Cryoburn.
He solved a problem for a different planet. That was in no way part of
his duties. (And just in passing, I love it when he pretends to angle for
bribes, then waits to see if the consul will complain to HQ back on
Barrayar. Because that shows that the man is honest. Is that how Miles
tests every time? They must have fun back on Barrayar, as the
complaints roll in.)
And, technically, Diplomatic Immunity; he was only told to sort out the
problem with their lovesick Barrayaran, nobody told him to stop a
galactic war (ok, yes it was a very  good idea anyway.)

From saffronrose at me.com  Thu Apr  7 13:04:16 2022
From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 05:04:16 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Quick warning
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844D73056B03249E61C61E3CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <SY4P282MB3844D73056B03249E61C61E3CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <B560DA56-A2F4-4ABD-8E4F-E15B24FE2037@me.com>

On Apr 7, 2022, at 4:06 AM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> If I vanish for a while, or the ACC posts pause, it might be due to
> problems with wifi and power; the river has risen more than four
> metres in four hours, it's just shooting up so fast. 

Best wishes for all affected by the rains.
Marina


From baur at chello.at  Thu Apr  7 13:30:14 2022
From: baur at chello.at (baur baur)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 14:30:14 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [LMB] OT: Quick warning
In-Reply-To: <B560DA56-A2F4-4ABD-8E4F-E15B24FE2037@me.com>
References: <SY4P282MB3844D73056B03249E61C61E3CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <B560DA56-A2F4-4ABD-8E4F-E15B24FE2037@me.com>
Message-ID: <1593962865.15530.1649334614500@webmail.mymagenta.at>

* knocking on wood * 

servus

markus 


> On Apr 7, 2022, at 4:06 AM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > If I vanish for a while, or the ACC posts pause, it might be due to
> > problems with wifi and power; the river has risen more than four
> > metres in four hours, it's just shooting up so fast.

From howard at brazee.net  Thu Apr  7 13:46:51 2022
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 06:46:51 -0600
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <B592637F-C01B-41AA-AA0E-8BFCA8EC9B59@panix.com>
References: <mailman.1.1649242801.19503.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844C4239D878E0791126F83CEE79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CA+x2q7tXg3LgR+EaSL7YYMRwWrdEwM9e1y_LRQiXZ6a_j+YnyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <B592637F-C01B-41AA-AA0E-8BFCA8EC9B59@panix.com>
Message-ID: <7A91609F-8910-446E-BE18-14D8FB2919E1@brazee.net>



> On Apr 7, 2022, at 3:32 AM, WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com> wrote:
> 
> Also power held for a long time causes brain damage, Particularly loss of empathy and
> never having to accept negative feedback, usually non is offered by your subordinates.
> Moral ? if you do acquire great
> power, be sure to keep people around who can tell you that you are full of feces and
> listen well to them. Miles fell into the power trap when he refused to listen to Quin,
> who was just saying common sense. Now he has Ekaterine to hold his coke chain,
> and Gregor, of course.

It helps that he didn?t seek that power.   We see too many cases of people who sought power all of their lives who surround themselves with yes men who make them feel good temporarily.

From proto at panix.com  Thu Apr  7 13:52:32 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 08:52:32 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38449FA8397AB46928DAA5E9CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1796.1649323964.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38449FA8397AB46928DAA5E9CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <EF4DCBCE-5FD1-423E-87F9-345719663564@panix.com>



> On Apr 7, 2022, at 6:58 AM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Gwynne: I think Aral, and especially Cordelia, deserve massive respect
> and congratulations for the way they raised Gregor. 

Cannot emphasize that enough.

?
It is wrong, always, everywhere, and for everyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.? ?W. K. Clifford (1845?1879), ?The Ethics? My take is belief should be proportional to the evidence. 





From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Thu Apr  7 15:12:17 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 14:12:17 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 3
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649329201.9576.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649329201.9576.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844D023169FCF960EDEB824CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



Miles is visiting Ekaterin to discuss her garden plans. Because he couldn't just
drop by to see her, could he (Doesn't this sound a lot like Duv's plans for
courting Laisa? Maybe Miles isn't the only military man who plans courtship
like a campaign.)

Miles is even dreaming about Ekaterin. He's so in love with her, he's having
such an intense relationship with her, she just doesn't know it yet.

And she has other visitors. Major Zamori - an old student of the Professora's
who just happened to drop by a few times. Alexei Vormoncrief (Worm. Slug.
Slime.) and Byerly Vorrutyer - I love him, I speak fluent snark too.

Zamori and Alexei are both totally clueless about Ekaterin's total lack of
enthusiasm towards them. By has probably picked up on it, and she likes
him more anyway - at least he's amusing. And he's not seriously hunting,
anyway. The Professora isn't happy. Georg went for a walk in the rain
and abandoned them all. Ekaterin is backed into a corner. Miles rescues
them all and runs the suitors off - or at least he gives Ekaterin an excuse
to escape. And she's far happier to see him than the others.

'Unlike Ivan, Byerly never insulted anyone unintentionally.' Channelling
Oscar Wilde. But it's so perfect. And Miles is perfectly capable of
snarkery at that level, too.

Miles tries to send them all to Komarr (no wonder the Komarrans
hate them) but By isn't interested, and Alexei just wants a nice Vor
woman (to be fair, so does Miles, but for slightly different reasons.)

Vormoncrief sets new standards for being downright nasty - Miles
overhears him state that Ekaterin would be disgusted if Miles was
courting her, and that Ivan would have been a great catch if the
assassins had been a bit more efficient, making Ivan the Vorkosigan
heir. Not only is Alexei nasty, he's also thick as a plank - he's standing
right outside an Auditor's house, which probably has all kinds of
ImpSec security around it, making dangerous remarks about another
Auditor and Count's heir. And he's speaking to one of the biggest
gossips in High Vor society. How has he managed to survive as long
as he has?

Ekaterin likes By's snarks - she's not all sweetness and light herself,
she has a very dry sense of humour and a strong awareness of the
flaws in people.

Miles is highly suspicious that two men from Ops, where Ivan works,
have turned up to court Ekaterin. (Oh Ivan, why didn't you target a
different office? Not the greatest strategist there. Or did you want
Miles to know?)

Miles likes the rustic, natural garden better than the modernistic
one, even though he can appreciate them both. Ekaterin makes
some changes, adds the Vorkosigan crest on the path, lowers part
of the garden to block more sound (it must have some serious
drainage systems added). Miles refers her to Tsipis to put things
on a business footing. Tsipis has of course been warned in advance
by Miles, but he also genuinely enjoys business management, and
helping people learn and plan. (Plus I'm sure he's realised he
might, if things go well, be getting to know the next Countess
Vorkosigan.) Oddly, a lot of Tsipis's training was very valuable to
Miles while running the Dendarii. (I love the way Lois shows the
nuts and bolts in the background, so many books neglect the
underpinnings. Logistics are at least as important as strategy
and tactics.)

I know that Miles is being sneaky, etc, but he really is helping
Ekaterin a lot; a very high-profile first job, and invaluable business
training by Tsipis. And she's being paid, which is very important
for a penniless widow.

Miles invites Ekaterin to the dinner party he's having for Kareen
Koudelka; the bait of a whole lot of women to befriend is
very tempting, Ekaterin doesn't have many friends in the capital
yet. Oh, and he's going to invite the Professors Vorthys, too. Of
course. So it's practically a family party, perfectly suitable for a
widow. Yes.

Miles is in a happy daze, already planning on inviting her to
some of the wedding-dinners. His campaign is going well.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Thu Apr  7 15:27:16 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 14:27:16 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 3 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649329201.9576.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649329201.9576.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384408BE5DB8AC7CBF5D8744CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



Oh Miles, he was the most overt covert agent ever, and he's still
the same. The Professora can read him like a book. By probably
can too. Ekaterin can't, only because she's working so hard on
self-deception. Miles is being so careful, planning his campaign,
moving step by step.

And Ivan has thrown it all into total disarray. You have to love him.
It took Miles less than ten seconds to put it all together.

Byerly is a delight. He's one of the few who can engage Miles at
his own level. (And he's very similar to Miles; damaged, working
tirelessly for the Empire without public knowledge or approval,
incredibly smart and somewhat cynical. He has far less support
and protection that Miles, which makes him even more of a
heroic figure.)

Major Zamori - a prole. A prole who has no hesitation in courting
a Vor woman who's the niece of an Auditor. There's definitely
a lot of crossover between high-level prole and Vor. The prole/Vor
divide is eroding quite a bit.

Alexei Vormoncreif. Slime, slug, etc. Dumb as a boot. Sure that
he's a prize, because he has High Vor relatives. He's the worst of
the Vor, contrasted with Zamori - the best of proles.

And Miles is going full-speed ahead, straight for the rocks.

From huntkc at gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 15:30:01 2022
From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 10:30:01 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: new worst pain (recalling old thread)
Message-ID: <CABsO85=KrqfAm9072t3UrRBky-Xyd33Cx_Q_LUnoq8iFPCNqtQ@mail.gmail.com>

I've found a worse pain than the ones I described before.

My son is in the hospital; he had surgery for a brain tumor on Tuesday. 7
hours long, and they had trouble removing it because some of it was pressed
against his motor cortex (which is how it got discovered - it gave him a
seizure) and some of it was attached to his sinus vein - they had to leave
some behind. I spent Tuesday aging several years each hour.

His left leg is numb and he can't move it well below the knee. He's going
to be fitted with a brace. Maybe it'll get better?

I can't really visit him because my cough is pretty bad these days and they
have lots of concerns about COVID (might be able to later, but we'll see).

From kawyle at att.net  Thu Apr  7 16:36:57 2022
From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 15:36:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] OT: new worst pain (recalling old thread)
In-Reply-To: <CABsO85=KrqfAm9072t3UrRBky-Xyd33Cx_Q_LUnoq8iFPCNqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABsO85=KrqfAm9072t3UrRBky-Xyd33Cx_Q_LUnoq8iFPCNqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2017755562.2127671.1649345817097@mail.yahoo.com>

 I'm terribly sorry you and he are going through this. I hope you can visit soon and that all goes as well or better than current predictions.
Karen A. Wyle
    On Thursday, April 7, 2022, 10:30:27 AM EDT, Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:  
 
 I've found a worse pain than the ones I described before.

My son is in the hospital; he had surgery for a brain tumor on Tuesday. 7
hours long, and they had trouble removing it because some of it was pressed
against his motor cortex (which is how it got discovered - it gave him a
seizure) and some of it was attached to his sinus vein - they had to leave
some behind. I spent Tuesday aging several years each hour.

His left leg is numb and he can't move it well below the knee. He's going
to be fitted with a brace. Maybe it'll get better?

I can't really visit him because my cough is pretty bad these days and they
have lots of concerns about COVID (might be able to later, but we'll see).
-- 
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
  

From huntkc at gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 16:40:24 2022
From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:40:24 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: new worst pain (recalling old thread)
In-Reply-To: <2017755562.2127671.1649345817097@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CABsO85=KrqfAm9072t3UrRBky-Xyd33Cx_Q_LUnoq8iFPCNqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2017755562.2127671.1649345817097@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABsO85m+-4oWvom6owv82k0UX9rwz6dXkkDDT1GN0KCkRLLsqQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 11:37 AM Karen A. Wyle <kawyle at att.net> wrote:

>  I'm terribly sorry you and he are going through this. I hope you can
> visit soon and that all goes as well or better than current predictions.
> Karen A. Wyle
>

Thanks. I am not ok, but things will probably get better. Probably is like
definitely, right?
I'm chatting with him over gmail-chat today - he had a bunch of IVs and
such taken out yesterday evening, so now he can use his computer.


>     On Thursday, April 7, 2022, 10:30:27 AM EDT, Karen Hunt <
> huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  I've found a worse pain than the ones I described before.
>
> My son is in the hospital; he had surgery for a brain tumor on Tuesday. 7
> hours long, and they had trouble removing it because some of it was pressed
> against his motor cortex (which is how it got discovered - it gave him a
> seizure) and some of it was attached to his sinus vein - they had to leave
> some behind. I spent Tuesday aging several years each hour.
>
> His left leg is numb and he can't move it well below the knee. He's going
> to be fitted with a brace. Maybe it'll get better?
>
> I can't really visit him because my cough is pretty bad these days and they
> have lots of concerns about COVID (might be able to later, but we'll see).
>

From rgmolpus at flash.net  Thu Apr  7 16:44:45 2022
From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 15:44:45 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38449FA8397AB46928DAA5E9CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1796.1649323964.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38449FA8397AB46928DAA5E9CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <149009484.2131140.1649346285770@mail.yahoo.com>

I suggest that Gregor had weekly/daily self defense training sessions with the biggest, burliest, toughest brutes Impsec can supply.? 
?He beats the cr&p out of them most of the time.? 
? 

Snip.......
It is a wonder that the Gregor manages to hold up so well.


I wonder if he sometimes goes down to a deep cellar in the Residence and
just does a few minutes of primal screaming, then comes back all clear and
calm ready for the next day.


-- 
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
  

From ravenclaweric at gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 17:13:47 2022
From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:13:47 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <7A91609F-8910-446E-BE18-14D8FB2919E1@brazee.net>
References: <mailman.1.1649242801.19503.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844C4239D878E0791126F83CEE79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CA+x2q7tXg3LgR+EaSL7YYMRwWrdEwM9e1y_LRQiXZ6a_j+YnyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <B592637F-C01B-41AA-AA0E-8BFCA8EC9B59@panix.com>
 <7A91609F-8910-446E-BE18-14D8FB2919E1@brazee.net>
Message-ID: <CAO7QBz_TGGhkr3Pa-u73jWRAP=-Vei_Ln1_LUiPZASmSLyQdAg@mail.gmail.com>

So Ivan is like that guy they had in Roman triumphs---the one who rode
behind the *triumphator* in his chariot, whispering in his ear "Remember,
thou art mortal?"

There've been a lot of powerful people who could have used someone like
that.  I was reading that one reason the Kray twins in Britain fell so long
and hard was because they'd surrounded themselves with yes-men, and nobody
would tell them that they were getting too big for their boots.  And I'm
told that Elvis Presley had the same problem---he'd surrounded himself with
sycophants, and nobody ever told him "E, you aren't the han'sum young stud
you were in the Fifties.  You're fat and out of shape.  Live concerts are
Not A Good Idea.  Do studio recordings---you're still in good voice."

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 7:47 AM Howard Brazee <howard at brazee.net> wrote:

>
>
> > On Apr 7, 2022, at 3:32 AM, WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com> wrote:
> >
> > Also power held for a long time causes brain damage, Particularly loss
> of empathy and
> > never having to accept negative feedback, usually non is offered by your
> subordinates.
> > Moral ? if you do acquire great
> > power, be sure to keep people around who can tell you that you are full
> of feces and
> > listen well to them. Miles fell into the power trap when he refused to
> listen to Quin,
> > who was just saying common sense. Now he has Ekaterine to hold his coke
> chain,
> > and Gregor, of course.
>
> It helps that he didn?t seek that power.   We see too many cases of people
> who sought power all of their lives who surround themselves with yes men
> who make them feel good temporarily.
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From fishman at panix.com  Thu Apr  7 17:54:51 2022
From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman)
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 16:54:51 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 3
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844D023169FCF960EDEB824CEE69@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.1.1649329201.9576.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844D023169FCF960EDEB824CEE69@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <emc27575ed-6bff-4cb4-8bbf-03afcfcd3a92@desktop-ckcgfo5>



------ Original Message ------
From: "Gwynne Powell" <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
To: "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk" <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Bcc: fishman at panix.com
Sent: 4/7/2022 10:12:17 AM
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 3
>
>Logistics are at least as important as strategy and tactics.
>
Much, much more important according to Bonaparte.

Harvey



From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Thu Apr  7 18:00:13 2022
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 13:00:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] OT: new worst pain (recalling old thread)
In-Reply-To: <CABsO85=KrqfAm9072t3UrRBky-Xyd33Cx_Q_LUnoq8iFPCNqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABsO85=KrqfAm9072t3UrRBky-Xyd33Cx_Q_LUnoq8iFPCNqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204071257500.502@pannier.local>

Oh no! Someone else's pain is so much more diffcult to live with than your 
own.

My best wishes for a complete recovery. I have known two 
people who had brain timors and recovered, so it is possible,

I hope you'll be able to see your soon soon.

Alayne

On Thu, 7 Apr 2022, Karen Hunt wrote:

> I've found a worse pain than the ones I described before.
>
> My son is in the hospital; he had surgery for a brain tumor on Tuesday. 7
> hours long, and they had trouble removing it because some of it was pressed
> against his motor cortex (which is how it got discovered - it gave him a
> seizure) and some of it was attached to his sinus vein - they had to leave
> some behind. I spent Tuesday aging several years each hour.
>
> His left leg is numb and he can't move it well below the knee. He's going
> to be fitted with a brace. Maybe it'll get better?
>
> I can't really visit him because my cough is pretty bad these days and they
> have lots of concerns about COVID (might be able to later, but we'll see).
>

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca

What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich

From huntkc at gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 18:04:34 2022
From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 13:04:34 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: new worst pain (recalling old thread)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204071257500.502@pannier.local>
References: <CABsO85=KrqfAm9072t3UrRBky-Xyd33Cx_Q_LUnoq8iFPCNqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204071257500.502@pannier.local>
Message-ID: <CABsO85mGBZJWNL47JfP_w4RKr0U7b-OJ5--=bvv3sewHYHHFrw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 1:00 PM alayne--- via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

> Oh no! Someone else's pain is so much more diffcult to live with than your
> own.
>
> My best wishes for a complete recovery. I have known two
> people who had brain timors and recovered, so it is possible,
>
> I hope you'll be able to see your soon soon.
>
> Alayne
>

Thanks. The not being able to see him hurts...

>
> On Thu, 7 Apr 2022, Karen Hunt wrote:
>
> > I've found a worse pain than the ones I described before.
> >
> > My son is in the hospital; he had surgery for a brain tumor on Tuesday. 7
> > hours long, and they had trouble removing it because some of it was
> pressed
> > against his motor cortex (which is how it got discovered - it gave him a
> > seizure) and some of it was attached to his sinus vein - they had to
> leave
> > some behind. I spent Tuesday aging several years each hour.
> >
> > His left leg is numb and he can't move it well below the knee. He's going
> > to be fitted with a brace. Maybe it'll get better?
> >
> > I can't really visit him because my cough is pretty bad these days and
> they
> > have lots of concerns about COVID (might be able to later, but we'll
> see).
> >
>

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Thu Apr  7 19:01:30 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 18:01:30 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: Quick warning
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1802.1649340747.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1802.1649340747.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844BD5B245EB212E6382DA6CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>


Yep. Bridge is closed. Again.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Thu Apr  7 19:07:09 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 18:07:09 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: new worst pain (recalling old thread)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1805.1649350821.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1805.1649350821.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38444725AA7D8D25C0B47984CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com>

I'm sorry that you have so much worry, made worse by not being able
to visit. I'm glad that he's able to speak with you, and hope that he
keeps improving. Stay safe, take care of yourself too.


From huntkc at gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 19:08:59 2022
From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 14:08:59 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: new worst pain (recalling old thread)
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38444725AA7D8D25C0B47984CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1805.1649350821.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38444725AA7D8D25C0B47984CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CABsO85k-az7+C5k-_ChqVGqdO2CxzAZdgN3W2C9UK=panWGovg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 2:07 PM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> From: Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com>
>
> I'm sorry that you have so much worry, made worse by not being able
> to visit. I'm glad that he's able to speak with you, and hope that he
> keeps improving. Stay safe, take care of yourself too.
>

Thank you. This is hard.

From mvanspanje at home.nl  Thu Apr  7 19:20:59 2022
From: mvanspanje at home.nl (Mieke)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 20:20:59 +0200
Subject: [LMB] New Rivers of London
In-Reply-To: <000001d849a3$1a3816d0$4ea84470$@gordonj.net>
References: <000001d849a3$1a3816d0$4ea84470$@gordonj.net>
Message-ID: <7D5DDB46-8136-4DFD-9EE0-F0A727D1B423@home.nl>

I got mine!
Mieke

--------------------------------------------------------------------------Half of what we call madness is just some poor slob dealing with pain by a strategy that annoys the people around him - Lois McMaster Bujold.  



> Op 6 apr. 2022 om 12:43 heeft Gordon Jackson <listmail at gordonj.net> het volgende geschreven:
> 
> ?Yay, the new RoL book, "Amongst Our Weapons" dropped through my mailbox just now. It's the signed Waterstone's edition and has turned up 1 day prior to official release.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mvanspanje at home.nl
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold

From lmb at matija.com  Thu Apr  7 19:26:18 2022
From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 20:26:18 +0200
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 3
In-Reply-To: <emc27575ed-6bff-4cb4-8bbf-03afcfcd3a92@desktop-ckcgfo5>
References: <mailman.1.1649329201.9576.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844D023169FCF960EDEB824CEE69@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
 <emc27575ed-6bff-4cb4-8bbf-03afcfcd3a92@desktop-ckcgfo5>
Message-ID: <6bf25b9d-c0b3-befd-22af-57f09e47a0c7@matija.com>

On 07/04/2022 18:54, Harvey Fishman wrote:
>
>> Logistics are at least as important as strategy and tactics.
>>
> Much, much more important according to Bonaparte.
>
And Eisenhower and Schwartzkopf, and the people who are currently 
beating Putin's thugs.

From litalex at gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 19:45:10 2022
From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 14:45:10 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: new worst pain (recalling old thread)
In-Reply-To: <CABsO85=KrqfAm9072t3UrRBky-Xyd33Cx_Q_LUnoq8iFPCNqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABsO85=KrqfAm9072t3UrRBky-Xyd33Cx_Q_LUnoq8iFPCNqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EAEC08EC-EB03-4F0E-92CF-F27A8E4898CB@gmail.com>

Hello,

> On Apr 7, 2022, at 10:30, Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I've found a worse pain than the ones I described before.
> 
> My son is in the hospital; he had surgery for a brain tumor on Tuesday. 7
> hours long, and they had trouble removing it because some of it was pressed
> against his motor cortex (which is how it got discovered - it gave him a
> seizure) and some of it was attached to his sinus vein - they had to leave
> some behind. I spent Tuesday aging several years each hour.
> 
> His left leg is numb and he can't move it well below the knee. He's going
> to be fitted with a brace. Maybe it'll get better?
> 
> I can't really visit him because my cough is pretty bad these days and they
> have lots of concerns about COVID (might be able to later, but we'll see).

Oh, no! I hope he recovers soon and is never troubled by it again. I also hope you get to see him soon!

little Alex



From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 20:03:48 2022
From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 14:03:48 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Quick warning
In-Reply-To: <1593962865.15530.1649334614500@webmail.mymagenta.at>
References: <SY4P282MB3844D73056B03249E61C61E3CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <B560DA56-A2F4-4ABD-8E4F-E15B24FE2037@me.com>
 <1593962865.15530.1649334614500@webmail.mymagenta.at>
Message-ID: <CAK6ahzZbaYRY3bY=i5HgYthP28cDDGTakUAvS439fURCDyQF=g@mail.gmail.com>

Stay safe and dry. Remember, no swimming.

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022, 7:30 AM baur baur via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

> * knocking on wood *
>
> servus
>
> markus
>
>
> > On Apr 7, 2022, at 4:06 AM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > If I vanish for a while, or the ACC posts pause, it might be due to
> > > problems with wifi and power; the river has risen more than four
> > > metres in four hours, it's just shooting up so fast.
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From proto at panix.com  Thu Apr  7 20:15:13 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 15:15:13 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <CAO7QBz_TGGhkr3Pa-u73jWRAP=-Vei_Ln1_LUiPZASmSLyQdAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1649242801.19503.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844C4239D878E0791126F83CEE79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CA+x2q7tXg3LgR+EaSL7YYMRwWrdEwM9e1y_LRQiXZ6a_j+YnyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <B592637F-C01B-41AA-AA0E-8BFCA8EC9B59@panix.com>
 <7A91609F-8910-446E-BE18-14D8FB2919E1@brazee.net>
 <CAO7QBz_TGGhkr3Pa-u73jWRAP=-Vei_Ln1_LUiPZASmSLyQdAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6DD6B330-7C3E-4161-B5E9-98886B528E5B@panix.com>



> On Apr 7, 2022, at 12:13 PM, Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> There've been a lot of powerful people who could have used someone like
> that.  I was reading that one reason the Kray twins in Britain fell so long
> and hard was because they'd surrounded themselves with yes-men, and nobody
> would tell them that they were getting too big for their boots.  And I'm
> told that Elvis Presley had the same problem---he'd surrounded himself with
> sycophants, and nobody ever told him "E, you aren't the han'sum young stud
> you were in the Fifties.  You're fat and out of shape.  Live concerts are
> Not A Good Idea.  Do studio recordings?you're still in good voice."

Not to mention, ?Stop or at least tone down the hard drugs and improve your diet.?

? 
"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light."
 - Attributed to Plato


From proto at panix.com  Thu Apr  7 20:18:24 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 15:18:24 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: new worst pain (recalling old thread)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204071257500.502@pannier.local>
References: <CABsO85=KrqfAm9072t3UrRBky-Xyd33Cx_Q_LUnoq8iFPCNqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204071257500.502@pannier.local>
Message-ID: <09E55F00-424E-4A9D-9BCB-31AE726804F6@panix.com>



> On Apr 7, 2022, at 1:00 PM, alayne--- via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Oh no! Someone else's pain is so much more diffcult to live with than your own.
> 
> My best wishes for a complete recovery. I have known two people who had brain timors and recovered, so it is possible,
> 
> I hope you'll be able to see your soon soon.
> 
> Alayne

I do so wish no ones pain was worse than mine. This is unfortunately not the case, AFAIK.

?
As the historical Buddha said, ?Hatred does not stop by hatred at any time; hatred stops only by love. this is an ancient rule.? about 2770 BP (BP means either Before Present or Before Physics that is before nuclear testing made it necessary to adjust carbon 14 dating.









From proto at panix.com  Thu Apr  7 20:20:58 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 15:20:58 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Quick warning
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844BD5B245EB212E6382DA6CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1802.1649340747.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844BD5B245EB212E6382DA6CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CBD2B2DE-A27F-4BE1-ACC4-80605E3E3EAD@panix.com>



> On Apr 7, 2022, at 2:01 PM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> From: Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
> 
> 
> Yep. Bridge is closed. Again.

May you continue to get electric power.

__ 
What is the difference between unethical and ethical advertising? Unethical advertising uses falsehoods to deceive the public; ethical advertising uses truth to deceive the public.
Vilhjalmur Stefansson (1879 ? 1962)


From saffronrose at me.com  Thu Apr  7 21:14:03 2022
From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 13:14:03 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: new worst pain (recalling old thread)
In-Reply-To: <CABsO85=KrqfAm9072t3UrRBky-Xyd33Cx_Q_LUnoq8iFPCNqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABsO85=KrqfAm9072t3UrRBky-Xyd33Cx_Q_LUnoq8iFPCNqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FEACF57A-FE58-4D26-93BA-0DC8C1B7D113@me.com>

On Apr 7, 2022, at 7:30 AM, Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ?I've found a worse pain than the ones I described before.
> 
> My son is in the hospital; he had surgery for a brain tumor on Tuesday. 7
> hours long, and they had trouble removing it because some of it was pressed
> against his motor cortex (which is how it got discovered - it gave him a
> seizure) and some of it was attached to his sinus vein - they had to leave
> some behind. I spent Tuesday aging several years each hour.

I hope matters proceed better than predicted, that you visit your son before Sunday, and that any tumor remaining from surgery is removed in a less fraught manner.

I?m so sorry you have to endure this: may it pass swiftly and never return.

A. Marina Fournier
saffronrose at me.com
Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e
Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA
Sent from iFionnghuala

From sylviamcivers at gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 21:51:44 2022
From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 16:51:44 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 - Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <CA+x2q7thS76sfxrNT-tLw3O1EK42A_Ob00u0CzysgM8Rn8QfBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1649242801.19503.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844019473B261B8EC793DA3CEE79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CA+x2q7thS76sfxrNT-tLw3O1EK42A_Ob00u0CzysgM8Rn8QfBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD6Rr-wSSevp_9Za1oc_=AcaAk3y8J-sdDr6FnniLpPNbuk1-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 3:35 PM Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 10:44 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > So, we have some of the most important people in the Empire in one
> > room: .. and Ivan. He's the lowest-ranking officer there,
> > and the least powerful person,
>
>
> ... he's here because he and Miles are family,....  Social power
> is a different sort of power than rank or ministerial standing, but it's
> not less real.
>
>
As Haroche completely overlooked.
 Sylvia

>
>

From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 21:51:56 2022
From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 15:51:56 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: new worst pain (recalling old thread)
In-Reply-To: <FEACF57A-FE58-4D26-93BA-0DC8C1B7D113@me.com>
References: <CABsO85=KrqfAm9072t3UrRBky-Xyd33Cx_Q_LUnoq8iFPCNqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <FEACF57A-FE58-4D26-93BA-0DC8C1B7D113@me.com>
Message-ID: <CAK6ahzaLBVaayu+Lgo6j9jZZ=QydxjM-ZedxJaKTp4esgz9thA@mail.gmail.com>

My heart goes out to you and your son. I hope he recovers completely and I
hope you can be with him.

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022, 3:14 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

> On Apr 7, 2022, at 7:30 AM, Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > ?I've found a worse pain than the ones I described before.
> >
> > My son is in the hospital; he had surgery for a brain tumor on Tuesday. 7
> > hours long, and they had trouble removing it because some of it was
> pressed
> > against his motor cortex (which is how it got discovered - it gave him a
> > seizure) and some of it was attached to his sinus vein - they had to
> leave
> > some behind. I spent Tuesday aging several years each hour.
>
> I hope matters proceed better than predicted, that you visit your son
> before Sunday, and that any tumor remaining from surgery is removed in a
> less fraught manner.
>
> I?m so sorry you have to endure this: may it pass swiftly and never return.
>
> A. Marina Fournier
> saffronrose at me.com
> Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e
> Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA
> Sent from iFionnghuala
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From huntkc at gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 23:54:21 2022
From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 18:54:21 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: new worst pain (recalling old thread)
In-Reply-To: <EAEC08EC-EB03-4F0E-92CF-F27A8E4898CB@gmail.com>
References: <CABsO85=KrqfAm9072t3UrRBky-Xyd33Cx_Q_LUnoq8iFPCNqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <EAEC08EC-EB03-4F0E-92CF-F27A8E4898CB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABsO85=z077VVoBddZqbDFwnoQyivTrNYq_pUaEJO4Xv4T59Hg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 2:45 PM Alex Kwan <litalex at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> > On Apr 7, 2022, at 10:30, Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I've found a worse pain than the ones I described before.
> >
> > My son is in the hospital; he had surgery for a brain tumor on Tuesday. 7
> > hours long, and they had trouble removing it because some of it was
> pressed
> > against his motor cortex (which is how it got discovered - it gave him a
> > seizure) and some of it was attached to his sinus vein - they had to
> leave
> > some behind. I spent Tuesday aging several years each hour.
> >
> > His left leg is numb and he can't move it well below the knee. He's going
> > to be fitted with a brace. Maybe it'll get better?
> >
> > I can't really visit him because my cough is pretty bad these days and
> they
> > have lots of concerns about COVID (might be able to later, but we'll
> see).
>
> Oh, no! I hope he recovers soon and is never troubled by it again. I also
> hope you get to see him soon!
>
> little Alex
>

Me too... It turns out it was a big tumor, bilateral. But probably benign.
Looks like he may have started with it around 2019 or so, and the symptoms
were disguised as troubles with using his left leg, especially the ankle.
Which is where he's still having the worst troubles.

From huntkc at gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 23:55:38 2022
From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 18:55:38 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: new worst pain (recalling old thread)
In-Reply-To: <FEACF57A-FE58-4D26-93BA-0DC8C1B7D113@me.com>
References: <CABsO85=KrqfAm9072t3UrRBky-Xyd33Cx_Q_LUnoq8iFPCNqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <FEACF57A-FE58-4D26-93BA-0DC8C1B7D113@me.com>
Message-ID: <CABsO85nVKdvkeEUqiF9yDc393EjJM8knbYQ_4XLmiXoEWx2vMw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 4:14 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

> On Apr 7, 2022, at 7:30 AM, Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > ?I've found a worse pain than the ones I described before.
> >
> > My son is in the hospital; he had surgery for a brain tumor on Tuesday. 7
> > hours long, and they had trouble removing it because some of it was
> pressed
> > against his motor cortex (which is how it got discovered - it gave him a
> > seizure) and some of it was attached to his sinus vein - they had to
> leave
> > some behind. I spent Tuesday aging several years each hour.
>
> I hope matters proceed better than predicted, that you visit your son
> before Sunday, and that any tumor remaining from surgery is removed in a
> less fraught manner.
>
> I?m so sorry you have to endure this: may it pass swiftly and never return.
>

Thanks, I hope this too! :)

From huntkc at gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 23:56:19 2022
From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 18:56:19 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: new worst pain (recalling old thread)
In-Reply-To: <CAK6ahzaLBVaayu+Lgo6j9jZZ=QydxjM-ZedxJaKTp4esgz9thA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABsO85=KrqfAm9072t3UrRBky-Xyd33Cx_Q_LUnoq8iFPCNqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <FEACF57A-FE58-4D26-93BA-0DC8C1B7D113@me.com>
 <CAK6ahzaLBVaayu+Lgo6j9jZZ=QydxjM-ZedxJaKTp4esgz9thA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABsO85nMRfqegM+Fv7YymCSd=5z8KeocoZxBrtNt1yHhxKSi+A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 4:52 PM Raymond Collins <rcrcoll6 at gmail.com> wrote:

> My heart goes out to you and your son. I hope he recovers completely and I
> hope you can be with him.
>
> Thank you. Me too...


> On Thu, Apr 7, 2022, 3:14 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold <
> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 7, 2022, at 7:30 AM, Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > ?I've found a worse pain than the ones I described before.
> > >
> > > My son is in the hospital; he had surgery for a brain tumor on
> Tuesday. 7
> > > hours long, and they had trouble removing it because some of it was
> > pressed
> > > against his motor cortex (which is how it got discovered - it gave him
> a
> > > seizure) and some of it was attached to his sinus vein - they had to
> > leave
> > > some behind. I spent Tuesday aging several years each hour.
> >
> > I hope matters proceed better than predicted, that you visit your son
> > before Sunday, and that any tumor remaining from surgery is removed in a
> > less fraught manner.
> >
> > I?m so sorry you have to endure this: may it pass swiftly and never
> return.
>

From wawenri at msn.com  Fri Apr  8 00:18:51 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 23:18:51 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: Quick warning
In-Reply-To: <CAK6ahzZbaYRY3bY=i5HgYthP28cDDGTakUAvS439fURCDyQF=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SY4P282MB3844D73056B03249E61C61E3CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <B560DA56-A2F4-4ABD-8E4F-E15B24FE2037@me.com>
 <1593962865.15530.1649334614500@webmail.mymagenta.at>
 <CAK6ahzZbaYRY3bY=i5HgYthP28cDDGTakUAvS439fURCDyQF=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB4847FB629345A7975E733291B4E69@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

Stay safe.

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.

________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Raymond Collins <rcrcoll6 at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 7, 2022 1:03:48 PM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Quick warning

Stay safe and dry. Remember, no swimming.

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022, 7:30 AM baur baur via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

> * knocking on wood *
>
> servus
>
> markus
>
>
> > On Apr 7, 2022, at 4:06 AM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > If I vanish for a while, or the ACC posts pause, it might be due to
> > > problems with wifi and power; the river has risen more than four
> > > metres in four hours, it's just shooting up so fast.
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7C0e9d6cd6106f4d66729408da18c9697e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637849550583910172%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=5ASKLHH%2FF1Z7Sqh3TuBnWchpSSftnq0N2dkTsx83tpM%3D&amp;reserved=0
>
--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7C0e9d6cd6106f4d66729408da18c9697e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637849550583910172%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=5ASKLHH%2FF1Z7Sqh3TuBnWchpSSftnq0N2dkTsx83tpM%3D&amp;reserved=0

From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk  Fri Apr  8 00:19:02 2022
From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson)
Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2022 00:19:02 +0100
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2
In-Reply-To: <MN2PR04MB684704D87037691F617B26A9B4E49@MN2PR04MB6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.1.1649156401.26642.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38446F8A7F20C2B2698F98A4CEE49@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <MN2PR04MB684704D87037691F617B26A9B4E49@MN2PR04MB6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <h5su4h5m19jo0pp8gm8fm2t7ao48ge2ka3@4ax.com>

On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 14:27:30 +0000, Pat Mathews <mathews55 at msn.com>
wrote:

>
>First, a class of what I'll call Vorables has grown up. That is, non-Vor in a strong enough position to be considered acceptable mates for the Vor. Simon Illyan. Duv Galeni. The industrialist who snapped up one of Ivan's Vor bud possibles. I think in Regency England, some of them might have been considered gentry, unless that applied to landowners exclusively.

"Gentry" don't have to be massive landowners, but a reasonable house and
a handful of acres are probably the minimum.

Even now, there's a social gap between those who own and run the country
(a largely inter-related group of around 400 families, sometimes known
as "The Cousinry") and people who rent, even if they rent mansions in
Mayfair.


--
We must believe in luck, for how else can we explain the success of those we don't like?
 - Jean Cocteau


From ravenclaweric at gmail.com  Fri Apr  8 02:38:53 2022
From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 20:38:53 -0500
Subject: [LMB] FIC: In search of a fic
Message-ID: <CAO7QBz82weqTnyk13d-qQttK-dWm97R3zNot1HPjWUcOvtRW7A@mail.gmail.com>

I'm trying to find a fic I remember seeing on AO3.  It's set in the world
of Glishara's *Guerrilla*, and basically covers what happens when Miles'
body is returned to his parents.  More than that I cannot say, since I do
not wish to spoil Glishara's story, but it's a real tear-jerker of a short
story.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Fri Apr  8 03:17:01 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 02:17:01 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: Quick warning
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1808.1649358919.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1808.1649358919.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844FE83A26FA781E5FCB4E5CEE99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Raymond Collins <rcrcoll6 at gmail.com>

Stay safe and dry. Remember, no swimming.

Gwynne: Not my first thought when looking at that water. It's fast
and mean right now.

From rgmolpus at flash.net  Fri Apr  8 04:50:37 2022
From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 03:50:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2
In-Reply-To: <h5su4h5m19jo0pp8gm8fm2t7ao48ge2ka3@4ax.com>
References: <mailman.1.1649156401.26642.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38446F8A7F20C2B2698F98A4CEE49@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <MN2PR04MB684704D87037691F617B26A9B4E49@MN2PR04MB6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <h5su4h5m19jo0pp8gm8fm2t7ao48ge2ka3@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1242387407.2315902.1649389837154@mail.yahoo.com>

 I've decided (as my own definition) that the difference between 'Wealthy' and 'Rich' is that the rich have gobs of cash, the Wealthy owns gobs of everything.????Anyone can have a pile of money, but it takes much more to have a pile of (permanent) 'things'.

    On Thursday, April 7, 2022, 06:19:18 PM CDT, Marc Wilson <marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk> wrote:  
 
 On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 14:27:30 +0000, Pat Mathews <mathews55 at msn.com>
wrote:

>
>First, a class of what I'll call Vorables has grown up. That is, non-Vor in a strong enough position to be considered acceptable mates for the Vor. Simon Illyan. Duv Galeni. The industrialist who snapped up one of Ivan's Vor bud possibles. I think in Regency England, some of them might have been considered gentry, unless that applied to landowners exclusively.

"Gentry" don't have to be massive landowners, but a reasonable house and
a handful of acres are probably the minimum.

Even now, there's a social gap between those who own and run the country
(a largely inter-related group of around 400 families, sometimes known
as "The Cousinry") and people who rent, even if they rent mansions in
Mayfair.


--
We must believe in luck, for how else can we explain the success of those we don't like?
 - Jean Cocteau

-- 
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
  

From fred.fredex at gmail.com  Fri Apr  8 16:15:09 2022
From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 11:15:09 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 2 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <149009484.2131140.1649346285770@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1796.1649323964.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38449FA8397AB46928DAA5E9CEE69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <149009484.2131140.1649346285770@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAF2xExvabc3FTk0rdqRHfq_sh79fGJ02U1vh_k9sBLCh9scX=w@mail.gmail.com>

and maybe Bothari, too.

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 11:45 AM Richard Molpus <rgmolpus at flash.net> wrote:

> I suggest that Gregor had weekly/daily self defense training sessions with
> the biggest, burliest, toughest brutes Impsec can supply.
>  He beats the cr&p out of them most of the time.
>
>
> Snip.......
> It is a wonder that the Gregor manages to hold up so well.
>
>
> I wonder if he sometimes goes down to a deep cellar in the Residence and
> just does a few minutes of primal screaming, then comes back all clear and
> calm ready for the next day.
>
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Fri Apr  8 17:11:18 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 16:11:18 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 3 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649415601.11282.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649415601.11282.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844D722DB46ABCFA1B7BBD0CEE99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



Finally the Vorthys house is clear of suitors. Ekaterin is delighted to
have the money Miles paid her; she wants to pay board but the
Professora doesn't want money from her, they settle that she'll
buy groceries. (Frankly I think the Professora just loves the
entertainment value.) The money also means that Ekaterin will
be free from depending on her father. He wants her to live with
him - even though he doesn't have the room - or with her
mother-in-law, who doesn't have any interest in her. University
and a career aren't in her father's image of a proper Vor
daughter.

Her uncle and Nikki have been out, foraging for buns. They've
brought back plenty of supplies from the bakery, most of which
Georg  hides in his laboratory. He suggests offering rotten
vegetables and chores to the suitors, to get rid of them. Ekaterin
is enthusiastic.

Nikki is amazed that anyone wants to marry his mother. He's not
in favour, though a major is better than a lieutenant. (Pond life
would be better than THAT lieutenant.)

Ekaterin wants the Professora to tell the suitors that she's not
home. She doesn't want to lose her Tien-less freedom. She
doesn't want to have to cut herself smaller and smaller, or to
tiptoe around someone's moods and inadequacies. The freedom
and lack of stress is almost intoxicating. And, of course, being
Ekaterin, she's wondering if it was her fault; if she'd stood up to
him more, would he have been less of a tool? (More likely he'd
have become more abusive.)

Yes, she can't stand the suitors. But Miles Vorkosigan is different.
And, of course, he's genuinely interested in gardens.

The Professora is having a very entertaining time.

Elsewhere in Vorbarr Sultana, Mark is arriving. He feels more
sense of belonging now, but still with some wonder. And he'll
see Kareen soon!  He's also been using vicious anti-fat drugs
to lose some weight quickly, so he doesn't look all that healthy.
But he does have something special: a truck full of lab equipment,
a suspicious crate, and an entomologist.

Mark and Miles share a brotherly handshake. They're both trying
so hard to have a good relationship. They look so startling together
that even Enrique notices. Mark has tried hard to train him
with Barrayar for Dummies on the trip there.

I love some of the lines here: "Mark, why does that crate have air
holes?"  and later "Mark... why do the air holes have screens
in them?"

So Mark and Enrique move in. They settle Enrique in a spare
laundry. I really think Miles should ask a few more questions.

Mark meets Miles in the library for afternoon tea, and a pitch.
The bug butter really does sound good; a way to turn unwanted
vegetation, maybe even Barrayaran native flora, into perfect
food product. And it can be flavoured. It sounds great, doesn't
taste too bad... and then Miles sees the bug, and realises he's
eaten bug vomit, from an absolutely revolting bug. Mark
needs to work on marketing.

Enrique left Escobar after a legal difficulty. Actually Mark and
Enrique broke into his sealed lab and stole all his equipment,
notes and bugs, and escaped from the planet. Mark has a
somewhat flexible attitude towards legalities.

Enrique has a great idea to help Miles start to like the bugs.
Mark really should have asked more about that.
.


From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Fri Apr  8 17:22:42 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 16:22:42 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 3 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649415601.11282.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649415601.11282.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384430E890FADF932DF27C2ACEE99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



I love the way Ekaterin doesn't have a clue that Miles is one of her
suitors.

And it's really touching to see how free she feels now, and how she's
almost surprised at the glory of it. She had no idea of the level of
tension she lived with every day - she's really in a recovery period
right now, very raw and remaking her own persona.

Living with the Professors Vorthys is wonderful not just for Ekaterin
but for Nikki too. This is his first positive male role model, and he's
settled into the Vorthys home so happily. He's not noticeably
grieving for his father.

Miles and Mark together - they both want to bond and have a good
relationship, but they're being so careful. It's amazing that Mark is
doing as well as he is, considering his past. (But then you can say the
same thing about Miles.)

And then we have Enrique. He's so sweet, so gormless, and so
dedicated to his bugs. Mark is the best thing that's ever happened
to Enrique, and yes, Mark will use him, but he'll treat him well and
give him a good chance to have a much better life than he would on
Escobar. And yes, Enrique is on the run from the police. And yes,
he did commit the crime. But he's just so clueless. And sweet.

From ravenclaweric at gmail.com  Fri Apr  8 17:35:03 2022
From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 11:35:03 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 3 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB384430E890FADF932DF27C2ACEE99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1649415601.11282.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384430E890FADF932DF27C2ACEE99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAO7QBz824FzNH73wxUxiZ3vRzxq4og5pzKMD6PBLocQDa-mi4A@mail.gmail.com>

I can understand Ekaterin's feeling of freedom.  My brother said that the
first time I was out to visit him after we finally sold that stinking
fourplex I'd been trying to run, I was a lot more relaxed and less
twitchy---I didn't jump half out of my skin when the phone rang, among
other things.

On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 11:22 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> I love the way Ekaterin doesn't have a clue that Miles is one of her
> suitors.
>
> And it's really touching to see how free she feels now, and how she's
> almost surprised at the glory of it. She had no idea of the level of
> tension she lived with every day - she's really in a recovery period
> right now, very raw and remaking her own persona.
>
> Living with the Professors Vorthys is wonderful not just for Ekaterin
> but for Nikki too. This is his first positive male role model, and he's
> settled into the Vorthys home so happily. He's not noticeably
> grieving for his father.
>
> Miles and Mark together - they both want to bond and have a good
> relationship, but they're being so careful. It's amazing that Mark is
> doing as well as he is, considering his past. (But then you can say the
> same thing about Miles.)
>
> And then we have Enrique. He's so sweet, so gormless, and so
> dedicated to his bugs. Mark is the best thing that's ever happened
> to Enrique, and yes, Mark will use him, but he'll treat him well and
> give him a good chance to have a much better life than he would on
> Escobar. And yes, Enrique is on the run from the police. And yes,
> he did commit the crime. But he's just so clueless. And sweet.
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From proto at panix.com  Fri Apr  8 18:16:56 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 13:16:56 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 3 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844D722DB46ABCFA1B7BBD0CEE99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1649415601.11282.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844D722DB46ABCFA1B7BBD0CEE99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <6C363F41-A881-4F71-8DC3-8100AEA25803@panix.com>



> On Apr 8, 2022, at 12:11 PM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Enrique has a great idea to help Miles start to like the bugs.
> Mark really should have asked more about that.
> .


?I do appreciate your capacity for understatement.? 
?
"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light."
 - Attributed to Plato







From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net  Fri Apr  8 19:46:37 2022
From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 11:46:37 -0700
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 3 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB384430E890FADF932DF27C2ACEE99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1649415601.11282.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384430E890FADF932DF27C2ACEE99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <80C29BBC-3907-4810-8642-DD0DB7C801CE@comcast.net>

On Apr 8, 2022, at 9:22 AM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 

(SNIP)

> And then we have Enrique. He's so sweet, so gormless, and so
> dedicated to his bugs. Mark is the best thing that's ever happened
> to Enrique, and yes, Mark will use him, but he'll treat him well and
> give him a good chance to have a much better life than he would on
> Escobar. And yes, Enrique is on the run from the police. And yes,
> he did commit the crime. But he's just so clueless. And sweet.

Enrique appears to be clueless on what type of paper he was selling to raise capital. I have wondered if this was the explanation given by a ?partner? who left the scene sometime ago with much of the original capital.

"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
?-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com


From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Fri Apr  8 22:07:23 2022
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 17:07:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] Barrayar's support for social mobility
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204081618360.22358@pannier.local>

Recent book-related discussions about a) prole mobility in Barrayar in ACC 
and b) the changes in Silvy Vale in _Memory_, have reminded me of a new 
book I read recently: _There is Nothing for You Here: Finding Opportunity 
in the 21st Century_ by Fiona Hill (Mariner Books, 2021).

Part of the book is about recent U.S. politics re Russia/Ukraine, and I 
will avoid talking about that.

But the more interesting part, IMHO, is about Hill's own journey, from a 
working-class girl in the town of Bishop Auckland, in County Durham in the 
northeast of England. This area was devastated economically by the closing 
of coal mines and shipbuilding in the 70s and 80s and then further by the 
reduction in social services by various UK governments.

Hill describes her "improbable" journey from that poor girl attending a 
comprehensive school (her family couldn't afford the extras to attend a 
private school even though she won a scholarship) to studying at St. 
Andrews University in Scotland and at Harvard, gaining a PhD, and 
eventually becoming a renowned policy expert on Russia who served in the 
US government under three presidents: George W Bush, Barack Obama, and 
Donald Trump, advising the White House on Russia and Europe.

She explains how the availability of support, advice, full financial 
bursaries for living costs and scholarships for poor students like her 
made all the difference in allowing her to use her intelligence to the 
full, and in general in creating social mobility. That support was 
available in the 80s and is simply NOT available now in the UK.

She compares Russia post-Gorbachev with the UK post-Thatcher (and the US) 
and concludes that all of those now seriously lack the supports necessary 
for social mobility. She concludes that has led to the rise of populism, 
social instability, increase in the separation of rich and poor, and 
worse.

OTOH, to bring this back to Bujold, in _Memory_ we see Miles returning to 
Silvy Vale and seeing

- how the scholarships he gave Hanna and Lem made all the difference in 
allowing them to improve their villages;

- how the loans that his District provided allowed the village to improve 
its infrastructure to the benefit of all, and

- how the medical scholarships Cordelia provided allowed both a worthy 
student to get training but also small villages to get a doctor.

In other words, small investments paying back ten-fold in improving the 
District.

Similarly in ACC, we see how Gregor and his Prime Ministers from Aral 
onward have been creating social mobility by creating an environment where 
proles can have their ambitions realized - both through the military but 
also through commerce.

Perhaps this is trying to create a substitute for political mobility - but 
it's still a Good Thing.

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca

What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich

From proto at panix.com  Fri Apr  8 23:33:40 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 18:33:40 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Barrayar's support for social mobility
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204081618360.22358@pannier.local>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204081618360.22358@pannier.local>
Message-ID: <3ED6B929-52A0-443D-A5B3-06D164B6CEFC@panix.com>



> On Apr 8, 2022, at 5:07 PM, alayne--- via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Perhaps this is trying to create a substitute for political mobility - but it's still a Good Thing.


Many of the oligarchs and their upper staff in the referenced counties would disagree.
?
"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light."
 - Attributed to Plato







From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  9 03:24:17 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 02:24:17 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 3 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1825.1649452053.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1825.1649452053.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844EDC6B149AB7DBC1824F6CEE89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com>

I can understand Ekaterin's feeling of freedom.  My brother said that the
first time I was out to visit him after we finally sold that stinking
fourplex I'd been trying to run, I was a lot more relaxed and less
twitchy---I didn't jump half out of my skin when the phone rang, among
other things.

Gwynne: I liked my job, so when I retired I was amazed at the incredible
release of pressure that I never even realised was there. So for someone
like Ekaterin, trapped in an abusive relationship, or someone in a job that
they hate, it must change their whole world. I can see why Ekaterin doesn't
want to let that amazing sense of freedom go.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  9 03:34:21 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 02:34:21 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 3 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1825.1649452053.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1825.1649452053.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384415BE885B232DA7FE42D7CEE89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Robert Woodward <Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net>


Enrique appears to be clueless on what type of paper he was selling to raise capital. I have wondered if this was the explanation given by a ?partner? who left the scene sometime ago with much of the original capital.

Gwynne: I thought that maybe someone saw his work and wanted to
invest, so gave him money for a share in the business. Enrique thought
that was a great idea, so next time he needed money he found
someone who'd pay for a share. And the next time, and the next... and
he never thought about what he was selling, because he sees the
bugs as the important part of the business and hasn't considered that
the goal is actually to market the product. And he never added up all
those shares; to him each one was a share, but not a percentage, so
he had no idea that if you sell 200% of a business you have a problem.
Enrique is incredibly lucky that Mark came along and rescued him.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  9 03:42:31 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 02:42:31 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Barrayar's support for social mobility
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1825.1649452053.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1825.1649452053.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844799BE029B2FB828066F2CEE89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca

....Some snips of a great post.....
She explains how the availability of support, advice, full financial
bursaries for living costs and scholarships for poor students like her
made all the difference in allowing her to use her intelligence to the
full, and in general in creating social mobility. That support was
available in the 80s and is simply NOT available now in the UK....
Alayne McGregor

Gwynne: Aral was right; 'All true wealth is biological'. If you help and
support people they can go on to do amazing things. Investing in
scholarships, and grants for local projects, gives people agency in
their own lives, and the kind of progress that they want, not what's
pushed on them from above. Silvy Vale has such pride in what they've
done, and they're getting what they need. All those scholarships
have put so many more teachers, doctors, etc into the District, and
the success spreads from them.
I have a manifesto (no, I'm not crazy, I just write things down when
I'm angry or irritated about something. It's my plan for the perfect
world) and one big feature is that education is free. Schools, universities,
Technical Colleges and all of it  - it should be free. Think of the difference
that would make, and the social change it would bring.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sat Apr  9 06:41:19 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 05:41:19 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Wealth vs Riches
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1825.1649452053.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1825.1649452053.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844CC096D6C4CCFD5E65154CEE89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



A point about being wealthy vs being rich: the rich proles have a lot
of money, and that's what gives them the status to marry a high-ranking
Vor woman, and to be accepted at the Residence.

High Vor can be threadbare poor, and still be accepted at all the 'best'
events, because of their family line. But even the wealthy High Vor are
different to the nouveau-riche proles. I'm pinning this to the UK, but I
think it's true for quite a few other cultures too: when you're old-money,
when you can track your family tree through generations of titled people,
you don't need to prove anything. In the UK, there's a certain fascination
with class divisions, and when they publish lists of 'this makes you upper
class or not' there's often a great deal of overlap between upper and
working class, while the middle class are different. Out in a rural area,
the old guy in ragged clothes driving a battered old land rover could be
the local poacher, or it could be the owner of the whole property. The
guy wearing the snappy new 'suitable for the country' outfit is someone
who made his money from owning factories or something, and he's
Not One Of Us. The best line ever was a put-down of some newly-rich
social climber: "He bought his own furniture."  Because, of course,
if you're upper-class you're using the furniture that your grandparents
chose, or even back beyond that. And pieces are only replaced slowly,
at need - never all at once.

When I think of Vor and proles, wealthy vs rich, that's where my mind goes.

And the social change in Barrayar is slowly giving more power and status,
and respect, to the self-made rich, and moving away from those who think
that a family name is all that they need. The military (always an important
sector of Barrayaran society) has already moved to ability rather than
name, for promotion. People like Ivan are assumed to hold their rank because
of their family connections; in Ivan's case that's totally wrong, he just LOOKS
like he has the soul of a town clown.

Of course you then get the next generation; children raised rich, by
their rich prole parents, who have all the earmarks of the idle rich town
clowns, but not the Vor tag.

From wawenri at msn.com  Sat Apr  9 19:06:21 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 18:06:21 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: old
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB4847BBE8307BAA5593974DFFB4E89@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

You know you are looking old when a young woman offers to help you load bags of mulch into your pick.

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.


From kcollett at hamilton.edu  Sun Apr 10 00:25:24 2022
From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Katherine Collett)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 19:25:24 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <CAD6Rr-zBgiLcd=NORD44dyZMC9xttKmVhn-KxtLkOqpe-vg7XQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c4c05ee1-d56e-3482-4347-9460579096b1.ref@aol.com>
 <c4c05ee1-d56e-3482-4347-9460579096b1@aol.com>
 <F1DD816E-B652-4FA7-AB32-A6DFC6BAE9AF@hamilton.edu>
 <CAD6Rr-zBgiLcd=NORD44dyZMC9xttKmVhn-KxtLkOqpe-vg7XQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5801D8B2-D902-4ADB-822A-9454C1DE9914@hamilton.edu>

On Apr 6, 2022, at 9:57 PM, Sylvia McIvers <sylviamcivers at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> (complete snippage)
>> Katherine, erstwhile teacher of English literature to first-years
> 
> What age is that?
> In Hogwarts, the eleven year olds were "firsties"  but I suspect that's not
> what you mean.

First year in college, freshmen, usually around 18.  The American colleges that I know have been calling the students first-years for, what, about the last 30 years at least.  

Katherine



From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk  Sun Apr 10 00:40:19 2022
From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 00:40:19 +0100
Subject: [LMB] Wealth vs Riches
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844CC096D6C4CCFD5E65154CEE89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1825.1649452053.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844CC096D6C4CCFD5E65154CEE89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <p1645h5p895en65qik0ou7mnfchq13crug@4ax.com>

On Sat, 9 Apr 2022 05:41:19 +0000, Gwynne Powell
<gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:

>High Vor can be threadbare poor, and still be accepted at all the 'best'
>events, because of their family line. But even the wealthy High Vor are
>different to the nouveau-riche proles. I'm pinning this to the UK, but I
>think it's true for quite a few other cultures too: when you're old-money,
>when you can track your family tree through generations of titled people,
>you don't need to prove anything. In the UK, there's a certain fascination
>with class divisions, and when they publish lists of 'this makes you upper
>class or not' there's often a great deal of overlap between upper and
>working class, while the middle class are different. Out in a rural area,
>the old guy in ragged clothes driving a battered old land rover could be
>the local poacher, or it could be the owner of the whole property. The
>guy wearing the snappy new 'suitable for the country' outfit is someone
>who made his money from owning factories or something, and he's
>Not One Of Us. The best line ever was a put-down of some newly-rich
>social climber: "He bought his own furniture."  Because, of course,
>if you're upper-class you're using the furniture that your grandparents
>chose, or even back beyond that. And pieces are only replaced slowly,
>at need - never all at once.

That was Alan Clark, a Tory Grandee, about Michael Hesletine, a
publishing millionaire turned politician - but he was quoting MP Michael
Jopling.

The other thing to note about the deeply wealthy is that they don't have
*matching* furniture, because it's likely to be the pick of an
accumulation of centuries.
--
A good idea will keep you awake during the morning, but a great idea will keep
 you awake during the night. - Marilyn vos Savant


From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk  Sun Apr 10 00:42:48 2022
From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 00:42:48 +0100
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 3 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844D722DB46ABCFA1B7BBD0CEE99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1649415601.11282.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844D722DB46ABCFA1B7BBD0CEE99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <pe645hpbnamno8vjq91ocid0vqe500r922@4ax.com>

On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 16:11:18 +0000, Gwynne Powell
<gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:

>Her uncle and Nikki have been out, foraging for buns. They've
>brought back plenty of supplies from the bakery, most of which
>Georg  hides in his laboratory. He suggests offering rotten
>vegetables and chores to the suitors, to get rid of them. Ekaterin
>is enthusiastic.
>
>Nikki is amazed that anyone wants to marry his mother. He's not
>in favour, though a major is better than a lieutenant. (Pond life
>would be better than THAT lieutenant.)
>
>Ekaterin wants the Professora to tell the suitors that she's not
>home. She doesn't want to lose her Tien-less freedom. She
>doesn't want to have to cut herself smaller and smaller, or to
>tiptoe around someone's moods and inadequacies. The freedom
>and lack of stress is almost intoxicating. And, of course, being
>Ekaterin, she's wondering if it was her fault; if she'd stood up to
>him more, would he have been less of a tool? (More likely he'd
>have become more abusive.)
>
>Yes, she can't stand the suitors. But Miles Vorkosigan is different.
>And, of course, he's genuinely interested in gardens.

Anyone seeing a touch of Ulysses and Penelope about this situation?
--
A good idea will keep you awake during the morning, but a great idea will keep
 you awake during the night. - Marilyn vos Savant


From fishman at panix.com  Sun Apr 10 02:36:16 2022
From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 01:36:16 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <5801D8B2-D902-4ADB-822A-9454C1DE9914@hamilton.edu>
References: <c4c05ee1-d56e-3482-4347-9460579096b1.ref@aol.com>
 <c4c05ee1-d56e-3482-4347-9460579096b1@aol.com>
 <F1DD816E-B652-4FA7-AB32-A6DFC6BAE9AF@hamilton.edu>
 <CAD6Rr-zBgiLcd=NORD44dyZMC9xttKmVhn-KxtLkOqpe-vg7XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5801D8B2-D902-4ADB-822A-9454C1DE9914@hamilton.edu>
Message-ID: <em7a282e11-542a-49dc-9b7e-42329dd0757a@desktop-ckcgfo5>

Seems to me, as I remember (a LONG time ago), we were called freshmen or 
frosh.

Harvey

------ Original Message ------
From: "Katherine Collett" <kcollett at hamilton.edu>
To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." 
<lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Bcc: fishman at panix.com
Sent: 4/9/2022 7:25:24 PM
Subject: Re: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 Pt 2

>On Apr 6, 2022, at 9:57 PM, Sylvia McIvers <sylviamcivers at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>  (complete snippage)
>>>  Katherine, erstwhile teacher of English literature to first-years
>>
>>  What age is that?
>>  In Hogwarts, the eleven year olds were "firsties"  but I suspect that's not
>>  what you mean.
>
>First year in college, freshmen, usually around 18.  The American colleges that I know have been calling the students first-years for, what, about the last 30 years at least.
>
>Katherine
>
>
>--
>



From howard at brazee.net  Sun Apr 10 02:46:20 2022
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 19:46:20 -0600
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 1 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <em7a282e11-542a-49dc-9b7e-42329dd0757a@desktop-ckcgfo5>
References: <c4c05ee1-d56e-3482-4347-9460579096b1.ref@aol.com>
 <c4c05ee1-d56e-3482-4347-9460579096b1@aol.com>
 <F1DD816E-B652-4FA7-AB32-A6DFC6BAE9AF@hamilton.edu>
 <CAD6Rr-zBgiLcd=NORD44dyZMC9xttKmVhn-KxtLkOqpe-vg7XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5801D8B2-D902-4ADB-822A-9454C1DE9914@hamilton.edu>
 <em7a282e11-542a-49dc-9b7e-42329dd0757a@desktop-ckcgfo5>
Message-ID: <CE436CED-FBEA-46DD-9855-35F835ED5316@brazee.net>



> On Apr 9, 2022, at 7:36 PM, Harvey Fishman <fishman at panix.com> wrote:
> 
> Seems to me, as I remember (a LONG time ago), we were called freshmen or frosh.

It used to be important what year someone was officially in college.   It still is in military academies, but people take courses as they will, much less structured, and end when they get enough requirements.   

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 10 15:44:37 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 14:44:37 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Subject:  OT: old
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649588401.6747.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649588401.6747.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844B0D0FB6CE4AB3883C76CCEEB9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com>


You know you are looking old when a young woman offers to help you load bags of mulch into your pick.
William A Wenrich

Gwynne: I'd finished my shopping - had a full trolley (cart?) and was heading
for my car. When I use a trolley I push it with one hand. In the store I hold a
list in the other hand so that it's not so obvious. I was pushing the trolley with
one hand, bouncing it off my hip as well when necessary, and keeping the other
hand out of the way. A nice young man offered to help get my trolley to the
car. I thanked him, but reassured him that I was ok. But I couldn't tell him the
truth.... no, I don't have some problem using the other arm. It's just that my
Fitbit is on that wrist, and if you rest the hand on the trolley it doesn't count
the steps.

From fishman at panix.com  Sun Apr 10 15:54:01 2022
From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman)
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 14:54:01 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Subject: OT: old
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844B0D0FB6CE4AB3883C76CCEEB9@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.1.1649588401.6747.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844B0D0FB6CE4AB3883C76CCEEB9@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <em821427ee-7954-48cb-8f7d-a5d514a1dfd5@desktop-ckcgfo5>

urrrgghh!!!!!!!! Why are we slaves to tech??? Does knowing or not 
knowing how many steps you take make you healthier or not healthier?? 
Yes, use the FitBit OCCASIONALLY to determine how many steps in your 
normal routine and then just continue with what you do normally.

Harvey

------ Original Message ------
From: "Gwynne Powell" <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
To: "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk" <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Bcc: fishman at panix.com
Sent: 4/10/2022 10:44:37 AM
Subject: [LMB] Subject: OT: old

>From: WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com>
>
>
>You know you are looking old when a young woman offers to help you load bags of mulch into your pick.
>William A Wenrich
>
>Gwynne: I'd finished my shopping - had a full trolley (cart?) and was heading
>for my car. When I use a trolley I push it with one hand. In the store I hold a
>list in the other hand so that it's not so obvious. I was pushing the trolley with
>one hand, bouncing it off my hip as well when necessary, and keeping the other
>hand out of the way. A nice young man offered to help get my trolley to the
>car. I thanked him, but reassured him that I was ok. But I couldn't tell him the
>truth.... no, I don't have some problem using the other arm. It's just that my
>Fitbit is on that wrist, and if you rest the hand on the trolley it doesn't count
>the steps.
>--
>Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com
>Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
>http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold



From ftomasek at storm.co.za  Sun Apr 10 20:08:11 2022
From: ftomasek at storm.co.za (Franz Tomasek (Home))
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 21:08:11 +0200
Subject: [LMB] Wealth vs Riches
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649588401.6747.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <202204101941.23AJfPxh032502-23AJfPxj032502@fortimail-02.voxtelecom.co.za>

Salvete

On 10/04/22 
   at 01:40 AM, Marc Wilson <marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk> said:

>The other thing to note about the deeply wealthy is that they don't
>have *matching* furniture, because it's likely to be the pick of an
>accumulation of centuries.

My experience, which admittedly limited to a very small sample, is that
it matches in style fine because that which doesn't is in storage until
it is wanted again. Much the way a modern museum only has a fraction of
its collection on display.

Valete
Franz
      

From ftomasek at storm.co.za  Sun Apr 10 20:08:11 2022
From: ftomasek at storm.co.za (Franz Tomasek (Home))
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 21:08:11 +0200
Subject: [LMB] Wealth vs Riches
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649588401.6747.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <202204101941.23AJfkut000473-23AJfkuv000473@fortimail-02.voxtelecom.co.za>

Salvete

On 10/04/22 
   at 01:40 AM, Marc Wilson <marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk> said:

>The other thing to note about the deeply wealthy is that they don't
>have *matching* furniture, because it's likely to be the pick of an
>accumulation of centuries.

My experience, which admittedly limited to a very small sample, is that
it matches in style fine because that which doesn't is in storage until
it is wanted again. Much the way a modern museum only has a fraction of
its collection on display.

Valete
Franz
       

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 11 05:38:17 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 04:38:17 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 4
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649588401.6747.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649588401.6747.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844E4121E4A717E73D99C2DCEEA9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>


Ivan is busy delivering wedding invitations to Ops. I have to wonder:
is he being used properly? Maybe Alys just wanted him around for
comfort?

Ivan runs into Alexei Vormoncrief, and is carried off to the nearest
bar. Byerly is scooped up as well - Ivan is wary of him; he's used to
Miles's snarking, but By's is a bit sharper. Pierre's death is
mentioned; Count Vorrutyer, Donna's brother, dropped dead and
Donna's challenged Richars for the job. By is slightly mysterious
about it, not that either of the others notice. He's also looking at
Ivan as a possible resource.

And Alexei has news; he's sent a baba to Ekaterin's father - that's
what the turgidly boring chat about family background was for.
(How many times have they met? Two or three at most.) Ivan is
horrified: he only wanted to stir Miles sightly. Alexei thinks that
Ekaterin is suitable (I know that romance takes many forms, but
I can't see a lot of love and affection here.) He's going to send Nikki
away to a suitable school, to "...Make a man of him, knock that little obnoxious streak right out of him before it becomes a habit."   Nikki seems to me to be one of the least
obnoxious kids I've seen; maybe he wasn't suitably impressed
by Alexei, especially when a Major was around.

Ivan is seriously worried, and it gets worse when he hears that
Zamori is in the running too - this is so not what he planned. He's
already worrying about Miles's revenge. Ivan is so worried that he
tells By the truth about it all. By isn't in the wife-hunt, he'd just
ambled along for the show, but he's amused by it all.

Ivan considers fleeing, but there's nowhere in the Nexus that would
be safe from Miles. He'll just worry and panic instead.

Meanwhile... Kareen has arrived at Vorkosigan House. Her reunion
with Mark is so sweet, and heartwrenching. They adore each other,
and she's very protective of him, too. But being back on Barrayar has
made things difficult, and different, for her - the freedom and
lack of inhibitions on Beta are gone now. And worse; she won't be
going back to Beta next year. And there's some concern over how
her family would react to Mark; the possibility of serious damage,
on either side, is real. They put it all in the too-hard basket for now,
and he takes Kareen to meet his bugs. And Enrique. The bugs are
doing fine, Enrique needs a keeper. And he's buying bunches of
roses to feed the bugs; not very practical. Lightbulb moment; Kareen
can be Enrique's lab assistant. It gives her a job, and keeps her close.

Mark is out of cash at the moment; everything is invested, he hadn't
budgeted for this.  Enrique suggests selling shares - he hasn't learned
from last time. Mark wants Kareen to basically babysit Enrique "...keep
him out of dark alleys and not let him pick the Emperor's flowers or
talk back to ImpSec guards or whatever suicidal thing he comes up
with next..." (I wonder what the trip from Escobar was like.) And he
wants to pay her in shares, but not the way Enrique does it. (Well
not more than five hundred percent-worth, anyway.)

This requires a lot of trust, because if this doesn't pay off she'll
lose any chance of saving up to get back to Beta. And part of her
duties will include telling her 'boss' to take a bath regularly. And
to eat. And change clothes. (And, probably, to stop him playing
in traffic.)

And Mark has the same ability as Miles to inspire people to follow
him, it seems. Well, at least it works on Kareen.








From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 11 06:01:56 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 05:01:56 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 4 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649588401.6747.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649588401.6747.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384494B7E2792FE545268AF7CEEA9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



Poor Ivan, he thought he'd just give Miles a minor tweak, and now
he has serious problems. He's so worried that he's actually being
open and honest with By, someone he normally avoids like the
plague.

And then we have By. He was hanging around Alexei closely enough
to get the word on Ekaterin. Then he's at the military-mens' bar
near Ops headquarters, and schmoozing with Alexei Vormoncrief.
And then chatting about Pierre's death and the Countship. I really
should have thought about all that much more when I read this the
first.

I'll just state it clearly now: I'm going to hate Alexei all through this.
I can find some sympathy for most of the 'bad' characters - I even feel
sorry for Ha(rra's mother - but not Alexei. I really don't like the way
he focusses on Nikki from the start - calling him obnoxious when he's
one of the nicest kids, he's polite and cheerful and adaptable. And, of
course, later he bullies Nikki, and then tries to have him taken away from
Ekaterin. It's actually a pretty nasty focus on that child, when you think
about it all. Yes, I'm going to really hate Alexei.

Kareen and Mark are so sweet together - who would have thought
that Mark would be the most romantic hero of the ones here in the
novel?

And Enrique: he's glorious. He'll fit in fine with the Vorkosigans,
they should understand highly focussed people. Even if that focus
is bugs.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 11 12:09:57 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 11:09:57 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Subject: OT: old
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649674801.19069.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649674801.19069.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38441997389ECD019567CF37CEEA9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: "Harvey Fishman" <fishman at panix.com>

urrrgghh!!!!!!!! Why are we slaves to tech??? Does knowing or not
knowing how many steps you take make you healthier or not healthier??
Yes, use the FitBit OCCASIONALLY to determine how many steps in your
normal routine and then just continue with what you do normally.
Harvey

Gwynne: Thank you so much for that, how stupid of me to think differently.
I'm sure your helpful and caring words will make a huge difference to the way
I organise my life.
Here's a few additional factors: I live alone, and the fitbit can motivate me to
do more on those days when I need an extra push.
I have a fascination (and a bit of a fixation) with numbers. So I'll do just those
few more steps to round off the hundred... then the thousand... to the next...
And to make the next goal before noon, or 2 o'clock, or 5...
And yes, it's pathetic, but achieving even that drivelling stupid little goal can
make me feel happy for a while. And what with the floods and the water
damage inside and outside my home right now, and dealing with insurance
and builders, and... it's nice to have something simple, familiar and reassuring
that gives me a lift.
Oh, and every step hurts. EVERY DAMN STEP. Sometimes more, sometimes
less. But always. So anything that gives me that extra motivation to move is
a positive.
But thank you so much for your input.

From thefabmadamem at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 11 12:18:59 2022
From: thefabmadamem at yahoo.com (M. Haller Yamada)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 11:18:59 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixie April 11
References: <346691858.859812.1649675939236.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <346691858.859812.1649675939236@mail.yahoo.com>

They say that April Showers bring May Flowers, and who couldn't use a pop of freshness and brightness in their lives? That means a nice, cleansing shower.?

Today is the birthday of Michael Bernardi, owner of the list and the man who maintains the Bujold Nexus. Such a lot of great information and trivia stored there -- well worth a look if you haven't been over there in a while!?

http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_lst.html#why

I propose a shower of praise for Michael today! Thank you for all you do to keep the list running smoothly!

Miles drops by to mention that he enjoyed reading the Nexus when studying late 20th century/early 21st century websites. The Bastard graces us with his presents (oops -- typo. that should say presence, but I better let it stand!), and mentions a couple of favorite snafus that all ended well. (The Bastard obviously is quite proud of his little nudges in our universe.) Dag and Fawn also stop by, a little bit bewildered because they have never seen a computer, but compliment Mike on his shoes (also a style first for them).?

Nikys and Idrene rush back and forth between dimensions, bringing in good things for the birthday feast -- ain't no birthday like a Cedonian birthday feast! There is a sudden shower of cherry blossoms and hibiscus pollen, making the venue look like a pink and red snowstorm.?

Hope your birthday is a great one, Mike!?


From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk  Mon Apr 11 18:41:55 2022
From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 18:41:55 +0100
Subject: [LMB] Wealth vs Riches
In-Reply-To: <202204101941.23AJfkut000473-23AJfkuv000473@fortimail-02.voxtelecom.co.za>
References: <mailman.1.1649588401.6747.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <202204101941.23AJfkut000473-23AJfkuv000473@fortimail-02.voxtelecom.co.za>
Message-ID: <jho85h50h8d7eddtl0neh0jg2jojv5eu58@4ax.com>

On Sun, 10 Apr 2022 21:08:11 +0200, "Franz Tomasek (Home)"
<ftomasek at storm.co.za> wrote:

>Salvete
>
>On 10/04/22
>   at 01:40 AM, Marc Wilson <marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk> said:
>
>>The other thing to note about the deeply wealthy is that they don't
>>have *matching* furniture, because it's likely to be the pick of an
>>accumulation of centuries.
>
>My experience, which admittedly limited to a very small sample, is that
>it matches in style fine because that which doesn't is in storage until
>it is wanted again. Much the way a modern museum only has a fraction of
>its collection on display.

Oh, it may be from the same *period*, or in the same style, but
generally not in the way that modern households might buy a whole room
setting at once.

And it's interesting that again, the ends are different from the middle.

The poor are also more likely to have mismatched furniture, though not
necessarily for the same reason - some might be inherited, and some
might be bought secondhand.

We have some inherited furniture, but we like early/mid 20c styles.

We've even bought some secondhand items that are *more* expensive than
new. :)


Ruth's sister, who is much more conventionally middle-class, could not
wait to get rid of things she inherited.
--
Religion has always been the wound, not the bandage.  - Dennis Potter


From agnes at charrel.net  Tue Apr 12 00:41:09 2022
From: agnes at charrel.net (Agnes Charrel-Berthillier)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 16:41:09 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Subject: OT: old
In-Reply-To: <em821427ee-7954-48cb-8f7d-a5d514a1dfd5@desktop-ckcgfo5>
References: <mailman.1.1649588401.6747.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844B0D0FB6CE4AB3883C76CCEEB9@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
 <em821427ee-7954-48cb-8f7d-a5d514a1dfd5@desktop-ckcgfo5>
Message-ID: <2168694c-efeb-7cf8-81e0-b7264fe9010a@charrel.net>

On 4/10/22 07:54, Harvey Fishman wrote:

> urrrgghh!!!!!!!! Why are we slaves to tech??? Does knowing or not 
> knowing how many steps you take make you healthier or not healthier?? 
> Yes, use the FitBit OCCASIONALLY to determine how many steps in your 
> normal routine and then just continue with what you do normally.

Define "we".

Maybe some of us enjoy a bit of "slavery", for whatever reason we don't 
have to / want provide to others? YMMV, but please don't project your 
needs on other people. As long as their behavior doesn't hurt you, you 
have little to no standing to comment or, worse, criticize, based on 
your personal likes/dislikes/pet peeves.

I was about to tell Gwynne she totally should have told the guy because 
I found her reason for one handed pushing hilariously relatable, and am 
sad to have to reconsider my advice based on the chance she might have 
been faced with a similar... outburst IRL.


Agnes



From fred.fredex at gmail.com  Tue Apr 12 01:27:01 2022
From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 20:27:01 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Subject: OT: old
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844B0D0FB6CE4AB3883C76CCEEB9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1649588401.6747.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844B0D0FB6CE4AB3883C76CCEEB9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAF2xExu0B6Ps4Cyo=jSed_t=bkch_XPhG4ieF2gaZMKMCgzPNg@mail.gmail.com>

It's just that my Fitbit is on that wrist, and if you rest the hand on the
trolley it doesn't count the steps.

I guess us guys are lucky. I wear bluejeans 99.5% of the time and all the
ones I have have a little "watch pocket" on the right side, sorta in the
entryway to the right-frornt pocket. it's not big enough for a pocketwatch
(so I have no clue if it was originally for that purpose, or if not, what)
but my pedometer slides in there nicely.

Maybe Gwynne could find some kind of pants with such a pocket and free up
her wrist?? :) ?

On Sun, Apr 10, 2022 at 10:44 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> From: WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com>
>
>
> You know you are looking old when a young woman offers to help you load
> bags of mulch into your pick.
> William A Wenrich
>
> Gwynne: I'd finished my shopping - had a full trolley (cart?) and was
> heading
> for my car. When I use a trolley I push it with one hand. In the store I
> hold a
> list in the other hand so that it's not so obvious. I was pushing the
> trolley with
> one hand, bouncing it off my hip as well when necessary, and keeping the
> other
> hand out of the way. A nice young man offered to help get my trolley to the
> car. I thanked him, but reassured him that I was ok. But I couldn't tell
> him the
> truth.... no, I don't have some problem using the other arm. It's just
> that my
> Fitbit is on that wrist, and if you rest the hand on the trolley it
> doesn't count
> the steps.
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From sylviamcivers at gmail.com  Tue Apr 12 03:11:32 2022
From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:11:32 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: a wizard alone nme edition
Message-ID: <CAD6Rr-w84=-TZouLUEDYmL+ESMQKM+ux1VQR7zAkW7E12OjCKQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all
I've been looking for Diane Duane's book A Wizard Alone - but can only find
the original (problematic) edition.

I've been looking for the 2012 NME edition, but I can't find it on Amazon.
Does anyone know where I can get a copy?

From fishman at panix.com  Tue Apr 12 03:21:09 2022
From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 02:21:09 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: a wizard alone nme edition
In-Reply-To: <CAD6Rr-w84=-TZouLUEDYmL+ESMQKM+ux1VQR7zAkW7E12OjCKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD6Rr-w84=-TZouLUEDYmL+ESMQKM+ux1VQR7zAkW7E12OjCKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <emd0ac298a-472d-4180-b45b-4ad0d9588efe@desktop-ckcgfo5>

Well, I did a Google search and wound up with this:

https://ebooks.direct/pages/young-wizards-new-millennium-revised-editions

I am not sure if it is of any help, but...

Harvey

------ Original Message ------
From: "Sylvia McIvers" <sylviamcivers at gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." 
<lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Bcc: fishman at panix.com
Sent: 4/11/2022 10:11:32 PM
Subject: [LMB] OT: a wizard alone nme edition

>Hi all
>I've been looking for Diane Duane's book A Wizard Alone - but can only find
>the original (problematic) edition.
>
>I've been looking for the 2012 NME edition, but I can't find it on Amazon.
>Does anyone know where I can get a copy?
>--
>Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com
>Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
>http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold



From lynnia at gmail.com  Tue Apr 12 03:22:04 2022
From: lynnia at gmail.com (Lynnia)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 20:22:04 -0600
Subject: [LMB] OT: a wizard alone nme edition
In-Reply-To: <CAD6Rr-w84=-TZouLUEDYmL+ESMQKM+ux1VQR7zAkW7E12OjCKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD6Rr-w84=-TZouLUEDYmL+ESMQKM+ux1VQR7zAkW7E12OjCKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANzzybppZHUMq3_j3QLTKdyLHAzQ1sqLXZOxd48SgJR1hojxsw@mail.gmail.com>

I believe in the US, she's been unable to sell them in paper because of
copyright etc, but the ebooks are available on her own eshop:
https://ebooks.direct/products/a-wizard-alone-new-millennium-edition

On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 8:11 PM Sylvia McIvers <sylviamcivers at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi all
> I've been looking for Diane Duane's book A Wizard Alone - but can only find
> the original (problematic) edition.
>
> I've been looking for the 2012 NME edition, but I can't find it on Amazon.
> Does anyone know where I can get a copy?
>
>

From wawenri at msn.com  Tue Apr 12 03:48:32 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 02:48:32 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Suggestion from Brian
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB48472F0EC1514E17AED48636B4ED9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

My son Brian made the following suggestion, "I want a captain vorpatril?s alliance but for the March dy Palliar!"

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.


From mark at allums.email  Tue Apr 12 04:17:39 2022
From: mark at allums.email (Mark Allums)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:17:39 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Suggestion from Brian
In-Reply-To: <CO3PR18MB48472F0EC1514E17AED48636B4ED9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CO3PR18MB48472F0EC1514E17AED48636B4ED9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <e3dededc-4dcf-4d49-51a4-d852f6b8b564@allums.email>

On 4/11/2022 9:48 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote:
> My son Brian made the following suggestion, "I want a captain vorpatril?s alliance but for the March dy Palliar!"

Tell him to write it.

Mark A.


From saffronrose at me.com  Tue Apr 12 04:28:31 2022
From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 20:28:31 -0700
Subject: [LMB] =?utf-8?q?OT=3A__Pocket_equity_=26_small_tech=2C_was?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCUU3ViamVjdDogb2xk?=
In-Reply-To: <CAF2xExu0B6Ps4Cyo=jSed_t=bkch_XPhG4ieF2gaZMKMCgzPNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAF2xExu0B6Ps4Cyo=jSed_t=bkch_XPhG4ieF2gaZMKMCgzPNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <791469C3-00E2-4530-B543-C6530BF3EED7@me.com>

On Apr 11, 2022, at 5:27 PM, Fred <fred.fredex at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
Gwynne:
> ?It's just that my Fitbit is on that wrist, and if you rest the hand on the
> trolley it doesn't count the steps.

Fred:
> I guess us guys are lucky. I wear bluejeans 99.5% of the time and all the
> ones I have have a little "watch pocket" on the right side, sorta in the
> entryway to the right-frornt pocket. it's not big enough for a pocketwatch
> (so I have no clue if it was originally for that purpose, or if not, what)
> but my pedometer slides in there nicely.
> 
> Maybe Gwynne could find some kind of pants with such a pocket and free up her wrist?? :) ?


Funny you should mention this. I have an array of pocket belts that I snap on instead of carrying a purse, and both front pockets, in one of which my iPhone fits, in the other my Taxi wallet/opera clutch resides with a few other necessary items,
have little pockets in front. Foil wrapped tea sachets, sweetener packets, a small notepad, and lots of her cards fit there. A Tile or a FitBit should fit there.

I wear one every day. I am frequently assumed to be an employee of whatever shop I?m at because it looks official, I guess. Most of the time I can answer the question posed, and if not, find an actual employee.

Over a period of four years a decade or so ago (because if it was a fabric I liked, it was the wrong size?and if it was in my size the fabric or style was not to my taste), I brought fabric & trims compatible with my wardrobe colors, and commissioned 3-4 belts a year from Katherine the Great. 
https://www.blue-moon-designs.com/pocket-belts

We met at the same conference, set up the year?s order, worked out how many monthly payments of how much, with the understanding that there was no rush for delivery. She got regular payments coming in, between festivals, when she was starting out, which she really appreciated, and I had a payment schedule I could manage.

I settled on one design, for the most part: pointy rather than square primary pockets, two D rings for keys in front. Generally don?t have a spot behind to carry a mug for Faire, but have a pocket flap that fastens in the smaller pocket because two flaps were too fiddly. Generally no tassels or beaded trims. I have one of her belts in turquoise and silver Chinese brocade which has snaps for attaching a lighted tulle bustle?which coordinates with a corset, by another artist, in the same fabric. 

Worn at the waist to over the hip, it?s comfy and ideal for women?s back health. No shoulder, neck, or back pain; you don?t have to take it off until you undress?thus no leaving it behind, something I do with my things with alarming regularity. There are models for men and other genders, and she is not sizist.

I paid nearly double the standard cost because I wanted a full lining/self-facing (usually in ultra suede or sturdy cotton) because 1) that?s how I believe it should be done, given my mother?s training, and 2) they wear less and last longer. I could offset some of that by bringing never-gonna-use fabric & trim from my stash that she could and would use.

She started out at Burning Man festivals, and attends several different genres of conventions, trade shows, and fairs now, as well as her Etsy shop. If she has a boothie named C/Katherine, they are Katherine Major and Minor.

A. Marina Fournier
saffronrose at me.com
Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e
Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA
Sent from iFionnghuala

From ravenclaweric at gmail.com  Tue Apr 12 04:53:33 2022
From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:53:33 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: a wizard alone nme edition
In-Reply-To: <CANzzybppZHUMq3_j3QLTKdyLHAzQ1sqLXZOxd48SgJR1hojxsw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD6Rr-w84=-TZouLUEDYmL+ESMQKM+ux1VQR7zAkW7E12OjCKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANzzybppZHUMq3_j3QLTKdyLHAzQ1sqLXZOxd48SgJR1hojxsw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO7QBz-HFB7FFuXKz9MSMTDmm+zeaDVQ3XA_05rZGSjaGwuYyQ@mail.gmail.com>

Why is it problematic?  <glyph of incomprehension>

On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 9:22 PM Lynnia <lynnia at gmail.com> wrote:

> I believe in the US, she's been unable to sell them in paper because of
> copyright etc, but the ebooks are available on her own eshop:
> https://ebooks.direct/products/a-wizard-alone-new-millennium-edition
>
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 8:11 PM Sylvia McIvers <sylviamcivers at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi all
> > I've been looking for Diane Duane's book A Wizard Alone - but can only
> find
> > the original (problematic) edition.
> >
> > I've been looking for the 2012 NME edition, but I can't find it on
> Amazon.
> > Does anyone know where I can get a copy?
> >
> >
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 12 05:55:48 2022
From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins)
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 23:55:48 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 3 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB384415BE885B232DA7FE42D7CEE89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1825.1649452053.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384415BE885B232DA7FE42D7CEE89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAK6ahzZvLvPsArfOBFD2FqeFQH87XGzhjOMO23faAc7zDLMJ7Q@mail.gmail.com>

In essence Enrique wasn't a bad guy, just clueless.

On Fri, Apr 8, 2022, 9:34 PM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: Robert Woodward <Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net>
>
>
> Enrique appears to be clueless on what type of paper he was selling to
> raise capital. I have wondered if this was the explanation given by a
> ?partner? who left the scene sometime ago with much of the original capital.
>
> Gwynne: I thought that maybe someone saw his work and wanted to
> invest, so gave him money for a share in the business. Enrique thought
> that was a great idea, so next time he needed money he found
> someone who'd pay for a share. And the next time, and the next... and
> he never thought about what he was selling, because he sees the
> bugs as the important part of the business and hasn't considered that
> the goal is actually to market the product. And he never added up all
> those shares; to him each one was a share, but not a percentage, so
> he had no idea that if you sell 200% of a business you have a problem.
> Enrique is incredibly lucky that Mark came along and rescued him.
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 12 12:54:09 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 11:54:09 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT:  Pocket equity & small tech, was?Subject: old
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649761201.4879.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649761201.4879.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384406D97C78D8C5FDA98C0ECEED9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: "A. Marina Fournier" <saffronrose at me.com>

Fred:
> Maybe Gwynne could find some kind of pants with such a pocket and free up her wrist?? :) ?


Funny you should mention this. I have an array of pocket belts that I snap on instead of carrying a purse, and both front pockets, in one of which my iPhone fits, in the other my Taxi wallet/opera clutch resides with a few other necessary items, have little pockets in front. Foil wrapped tea sachets, sweetener packets, a small notepad, and lots of her cards fit there. A Tile or a FitBit should fit there.

I wear one every day. I am frequently assumed to be an employee of whatever shop I?m at because it looks official, I guess. Most of the time I can answer the question posed, and if not, find an actual employee.
.......
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.blue-moon-designs.com%2Fpocket-belts&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7C95232dbffd8d4a820d8108da1c739ac1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637853580103697303%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=geqvh9%2BTGT0Txly0ikiz51AKWN0vPmgXZF8aTPpwaY4%3D&amp;reserved=0
A. Marina Fournier

Gwynne: That looks awesome!

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 12 12:59:14 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 11:59:14 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 3 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649761201.4879.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649761201.4879.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38448D3AC6C605029804051ACEED9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Raymond Collins <rcrcoll6 at gmail.com>

In essence Enrique wasn't a bad guy, just clueless.

Gwynne: Absolutely. Now that he has a Vorkosigan framework around him,
he'll be fine. (Hopefully Mark will pay back those investors, one day.) Putting
Enrique in jail really is a waste of his amazing talent - and he still has no idea
that he's committed a crime, or what it was. You could almost plead mental
deficiency, really - if it doesn't have six legs, he has no idea and no interest.
So... yes, he's a criminal, but through ignorance rather than intent.
I'd love to see the trip from Escobar to Barrayar, with Mark trying so hard to
train Enrique in the use of titles on Barrayar, and basic Barrayaran etiquette.

From ravenclaweric at gmail.com  Tue Apr 12 17:35:18 2022
From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 11:35:18 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 3 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38448D3AC6C605029804051ACEED9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1649761201.4879.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38448D3AC6C605029804051ACEED9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAO7QBz_rrniPnRcOSHCq64LWV3_fF-K4+Ly4d7e0F2zwc416Qw@mail.gmail.com>

Enrique is almost the epitome of the "absent-minded professor"
stereotype---within his field, he's one of the top men anywhere, but
outside of it, he's nearly clueless---he's so absorbed with his field that
to him, the rest of the world is an annoyance and distraction.

On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 6:59 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> From: Raymond Collins <rcrcoll6 at gmail.com>
>
> In essence Enrique wasn't a bad guy, just clueless.
>
> Gwynne: Absolutely. Now that he has a Vorkosigan framework around him,
> he'll be fine. (Hopefully Mark will pay back those investors, one day.)
> Putting
> Enrique in jail really is a waste of his amazing talent - and he still has
> no idea
> that he's committed a crime, or what it was. You could almost plead mental
> deficiency, really - if it doesn't have six legs, he has no idea and no
> interest.
> So... yes, he's a criminal, but through ignorance rather than intent.
> I'd love to see the trip from Escobar to Barrayar, with Mark trying so
> hard to
> train Enrique in the use of titles on Barrayar, and basic Barrayaran
> etiquette.
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From matt.msg at gmail.com  Tue Apr 12 19:46:06 2022
From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:46:06 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: a wizard alone nme edition
In-Reply-To: <CAO7QBz-HFB7FFuXKz9MSMTDmm+zeaDVQ3XA_05rZGSjaGwuYyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD6Rr-w84=-TZouLUEDYmL+ESMQKM+ux1VQR7zAkW7E12OjCKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANzzybppZHUMq3_j3QLTKdyLHAzQ1sqLXZOxd48SgJR1hojxsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO7QBz-HFB7FFuXKz9MSMTDmm+zeaDVQ3XA_05rZGSjaGwuYyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAjYNUp8RUtUEJErKELq8M7C2_xof2AF-OhfzkRfD+X1Ph7Jrw@mail.gmail.com>

Her depiction of autism offended autism activists, because it wasn't merely
theirs repeated.

I'd feel sorrier for her, but she's chosen to cave in - and in any case,
the inaccuracies in her previous description of cancer used up what
sympathy I had remaining for her.

Matt G.

From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Tue Apr 12 20:46:36 2022
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 15:46:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixie April 11
In-Reply-To: <346691858.859812.1649675939236@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <346691858.859812.1649675939236.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <346691858.859812.1649675939236@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204121545400.17025@pannier.local>

Happy birthday, Michael! Your work has created a wonderful, longlasting 
community.

Alayne

On Mon, 11 Apr 2022, M. Haller Yamada via Lois-Bujold wrote:

> They say that April Showers bring May Flowers, and who couldn't use a pop of freshness and brightness in their lives? That means a nice, cleansing shower.?
>
> Today is the birthday of Michael Bernardi, owner of the list and the man who maintains the Bujold Nexus. Such a lot of great information and trivia stored there -- well worth a look if you haven't been over there in a while!?
>
> http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_lst.html#why
>
> I propose a shower of praise for Michael today! Thank you for all you do to keep the list running smoothly!
>
> Miles drops by to mention that he enjoyed reading the Nexus when studying late 20th century/early 21st century websites. The Bastard graces us with his presents (oops -- typo. that should say presence, but I better let it stand!), and mentions a couple of favorite snafus that all ended well. (The Bastard obviously is quite proud of his little nudges in our universe.) Dag and Fawn also stop by, a little bit bewildered because they have never seen a computer, but compliment Mike on his shoes (also a style first for them).?
>
> Nikys and Idrene rush back and forth between dimensions, bringing in good things for the birthday feast -- ain't no birthday like a Cedonian birthday feast! There is a sudden shower of cherry blossoms and hibiscus pollen, making the venue look like a pink and red snowstorm.?
>
> Hope your birthday is a great one, Mike!?
>
> -- 
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca

What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich

From saffronrose at me.com  Wed Apr 13 05:54:33 2022
From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 21:54:33 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: a wizard alone nme edition
In-Reply-To: <CAAjYNUp8RUtUEJErKELq8M7C2_xof2AF-OhfzkRfD+X1Ph7Jrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAjYNUp8RUtUEJErKELq8M7C2_xof2AF-OhfzkRfD+X1Ph7Jrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <786858F9-5686-423B-8F2F-489BE141C855@me.com>

On Apr 12, 2022, at 11:44 AM, Matthew George <matt.msg at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Her depiction of autism offended autism activists, because it wasn't merely
> theirs repeated.

Let me guess: Autism Speaks, which believes autism should be ?cured? and eradicated, objected to however the ?disorder? was depicted by her. 

Having not made it past the 3rd or 4th book, I don?t know how she depicted it. My thoughts are more inline with The AutIsm Society than Autism Speaks: I believe the latter has members that are downright cruel to their children, who they see as nothing but burdens. As a bipolar, I?m neuro-diverse/neuro-divergent. 

The greatest joy as the parent of a young child is to watch the world through their eyes, to see the wonder anew. Our son often saw the world through different lenses, making us think and sometimes reassess our ingrained ideas. I?d like to believe that I?d have loved a child with ASD, celebrated the difference in worldview, and helped said child with coping mechanisms.

Our son is like me, having had juvenile onset bipolar disorder, although it seems to have reduced to cyclothymia as an adult. Not that I knew it, I probably developed it as an adolescent. Oh, and we?re both lefties.

He groks other neurodiverse folks faster than I do sometimes. He?s been helpful to families with neurodiverse offspring in his RE classes at the UU fellowship, because of his informed observations and understanding & accommodating the needs of those children.

A. Marina Fournier
saffronrose at me.com
Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e
Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA
Sent from iFionnghuala

From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 13 08:26:26 2022
From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 02:26:26 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 3 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <CAO7QBz_rrniPnRcOSHCq64LWV3_fF-K4+Ly4d7e0F2zwc416Qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1649761201.4879.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38448D3AC6C605029804051ACEED9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAO7QBz_rrniPnRcOSHCq64LWV3_fF-K4+Ly4d7e0F2zwc416Qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK6ahzZZz0pLXf9yb6YE3n7eg5SaGHKcSYZLTLT0bpjLhMQDRw@mail.gmail.com>

Mark must have had a lot fun trying to teach Enrique about how Barrayar
nobility. Any subject outside of insects, butterbugs,  or entomology in
general would have gone in one ear and out the other.

On Tue, Apr 12, 2022, 11:35 AM Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com> wrote:

> Enrique is almost the epitome of the "absent-minded professor"
> stereotype---within his field, he's one of the top men anywhere, but
> outside of it, he's nearly clueless---he's so absorbed with his field that
> to him, the rest of the world is an annoyance and distraction.
>
> On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 6:59 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Raymond Collins <rcrcoll6 at gmail.com>
> >
> > In essence Enrique wasn't a bad guy, just clueless.
> >
> > Gwynne: Absolutely. Now that he has a Vorkosigan framework around him,
> > he'll be fine. (Hopefully Mark will pay back those investors, one day.)
> > Putting
> > Enrique in jail really is a waste of his amazing talent - and he still
> has
> > no idea
> > that he's committed a crime, or what it was. You could almost plead
> mental
> > deficiency, really - if it doesn't have six legs, he has no idea and no
> > interest.
> > So... yes, he's a criminal, but through ignorance rather than intent.
> > I'd love to see the trip from Escobar to Barrayar, with Mark trying so
> > hard to
> > train Enrique in the use of titles on Barrayar, and basic Barrayaran
> > etiquette.
> > --
> > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
> > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
> >
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From lmb at matija.com  Wed Apr 13 08:29:10 2022
From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:29:10 +0200
Subject: [LMB] OT: a wizard alone nme edition
In-Reply-To: <786858F9-5686-423B-8F2F-489BE141C855@me.com>
References: <CAAjYNUp8RUtUEJErKELq8M7C2_xof2AF-OhfzkRfD+X1Ph7Jrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <786858F9-5686-423B-8F2F-489BE141C855@me.com>
Message-ID: <93539c3c-e436-df1c-57a7-e5d62b64013c@matija.com>

On 13/04/2022 06:54, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote:
> On Apr 12, 2022, at 11:44 AM, Matthew George <matt.msg at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ?Her depiction of autism offended autism activists, because it wasn't merely
>> theirs repeated.
> Let me guess: Autism Speaks, which believes autism should be ?cured? and eradicated, objected to however the ?disorder? was depicted by her.

Just because I am uncomfortable about making assumptions, I tried to 
google the controversy.

I didn't find much, which suggests it's not a big thing. What I did find 
suggests that the problematic version is the first one, where the 
(spoiler) the young wizard gets cured of autism. In a brief search I 
haven't found anybody complaining about the new version - but I may just 
not have hit on the right set of keywords.

Here is a review that compares both versions in what feels to me like a 
balanced, not adversarial way:

https://disabilityinkidlit.com/2015/04/29/review-a-wizard-alone-by-diane-duane/



From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 13 11:49:54 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 10:49:54 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Gregor's Childhood
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1904.1649834957.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1904.1649834957.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38444ACCA899EF7E0FDFDD3DCEEC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



I've been looking at a few mentions of the early days of the Regency
(Barrayaran style) and I'm just working out a timeline.

At roughly four or five Gregor becomes a ward of Aral and Cordelia.
Miles is born, there's a rift with Piotr, and then the family move into
the Residence. Did Gregor live in Vorkosigan House for a few months,
until Miles was born? Cordelia would never have left him in the
Residence alone. But if Cordelia and Aral stayed with him in the
Residence, it wouldn't be such an important point that they were
banned from the House by Piotr when Miles was born.

Age five Miles is able to walk. Roughly around that time the rift with
Piotr is healed, a bit, and they go to live in Vorkosigan House. Miles
mentions in ACC that at age six or so he was living in Vorkosigan House.

Gregor was to go to boarding school when he was 12. (Did he go away
to boarding school? Or did he just go to a local Vor school?)  When
Miles was five Gregor would have been ten, roughly. So did he live with
them in Vorkosigan House for two years? Again, I can't believe that
Cordelia would abandon him at that age.

Then Gregor went to Vor School at 12. Where did he spend his
holidays? At least some of them were at Vorkosigan Surleau. Did he
spend more time at Vorkosigan House? Or did Cordelia and Aral,
and Miles, move to the Residence for a few weeks here and there?

Cordelia and Aral had a huge impact on Gregor's development. I
can't believe that Cordelia would leave him in that huge place all
 alone (several hundred servants, and twenty armsmen, don't count.
Well, they wouldn't for Cordelia.) Especially when it's the building
where his mother, and grandfather, died. And I think they'd have
had to be with him up to 12, the full seven years, to have such a
strong influence.

So did Gregor live in Vorkosigan House for a few years?  And how
does Miles feel when he goes to the Residence - does that childhood
memory of living there affect his approach to authority?

From thefabmadamem at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 13 11:51:43 2022
From: thefabmadamem at yahoo.com (M. Haller Yamada)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 10:51:43 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixie for April 13
References: <570793849.485143.1649847103012.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <570793849.485143.1649847103012@mail.yahoo.com>

Continuing with the theme of showers, the Birthday Tixie is pleased to announce a double birthday for Richard Anderson and for Pouncer. You two are the recipients of an Asteroid Shower! No, no, not in your backyard. No, not of disaster size, either!

Rather, Dag and Fawn take you out on the river to watch an asteroid shower from a raft. There are all sorts of delightful nibbles of both Farmer and Lakewalker origins, and the weather has brought a clear night sky, with just a nip of winter's demise in the air. You both are all bundled up for a nice cool evening on the water, though, and there are no biting bugs out yet. Just marvelous shooting stars, some lovely old songs, and the sounds of spring waking up.?

Wishing you both a lovely day full of fun!



From huntkc at gmail.com  Wed Apr 13 12:53:14 2022
From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 07:53:14 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Gregor's Childhood
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38444ACCA899EF7E0FDFDD3DCEEC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1904.1649834957.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38444ACCA899EF7E0FDFDD3DCEEC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CABsO85m_BAg_pzG6S2uTRn_Zhz9+nyHAABpadWjGZkxFjfTdjA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 6:50 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> I've been looking at a few mentions of the early days of the Regency
> (Barrayaran style) and I'm just working out a timeline.
>
> At roughly four or five Gregor becomes a ward of Aral and Cordelia.
> Miles is born, there's a rift with Piotr, and then the family move into
> the Residence. Did Gregor live in Vorkosigan House for a few months,
> until Miles was born? Cordelia would never have left him in the
> Residence alone. But if Cordelia and Aral stayed with him in the
> Residence, it wouldn't be such an important point that they were
> banned from the House by Piotr when Miles was born.
>

[snippage]

So did Gregor live in Vorkosigan House for a few years?  And how
> does Miles feel when he goes to the Residence - does that childhood
> memory of living there affect his approach to authority?
>

Can't speak to Gregor in Vorkosigan House, but for Miles at the Residence
we have these:
(The Warrior's Apprentice, near the end)
"My liege." Miles lowered his voice. "When we played together in the
Imperial Residence in the winters, when did I ever demand any part except
that of Vorthalia the loyal? You know me -- how could you doubt? The
Dendarii Mercenaries were an accident.

(Cetaganda, near the end)
Emperor Gregor had been raised along with Miles practically as his
foster-brother; somewhere in the back of Miles's mind the term "emperor"
was coupled with such identifiers as "somebody to play hide-and-seek with."

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 13 15:51:58 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 14:51:58 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649847601.21587.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649847601.21587.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384465070EF69E3C3792927BCEEC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



Pym opens the door to Ekaterin - Pym is glorious throughout this book,
he's trying SO hard to get Miles and Ekaterin together, not always subtly.
Ekaterin heads to the library to wait, and meets Mark. Ekaterin has come
to ask Miles about the tree they're removing; Mark is happy to get a pile
of vegetation for free. He doesn't explain why. The conversation so far is
polite, but odd.

Pym pops back to make sure she's still there, and tells her that Miles
had a seizure last night. Does Pym know that she saw him have a
seizure before? Miles must have told him. But it's a very intimate
detail to share, especially with Mark there.

And then Mark asks about the seizures, and she tells him - again,
weirdly intimate. Normally you'd expect a person to tell Mark to
ask Miles, since he's obviously not shared the information. And
Ekaterin is usually very poised and self-contained.

Mark explains that those needle grenade scars, and death, came
when rescuing Mark.

"...She could understand why Lord Vorkosigan was loath to display any weakness..."
And yet she told his secret?

And then asks Mark if he regards Miles as a brother or a progenitor.
Again, a rather intimate question to ask a stranger, especially on
Barrayar. (Is Ekaterin off balance? Or does she feel weirdly intimate
with Miles without realising it?)

Miles arrives, looking terrible (so Mark would probably have found
out about the seizures sooner or later anyway.) Miles absorbs coffee,
and Pym issues it all round. They sort out the tree question, and
Miles mentions Mark's eight thousand little friends... no explanation,
this is an odd conversation, there's several different relationships
and conversations happening at the same time. And yet, somehow,
these people are comfortable with each other.

Miles confirms the dinner party, then the conversation wanders
into his latest Auditorial job; Vormuir's baby factory. We get some
information about one of Aral and Cordelia's devious ploys - freeing
proles to leave a District if they wish. And it's becoming obvious that
some Districts are run better than others. The university and various
colleges in Vorkosigan District (thank you, Cordelia) are keeping it
alive. Vormuir decided to breed his own proles rather than run his
District better.

Ekaterin and Miles are both jealous that Vormuir has so many
children. Ekaterin yearns for children, especially daughters. Miles
just wants any. At least they think pretty much alike on that.

Pym again is glorious about the scene where Countess Vormuir
poured water over the Count, threw the bucket at him, and
threatened him with a plasma arc (is it even legal for her to
have that? But it'd be a brave man who tried to take it away from
her at the moment.)

"...I understand her aim is superior."

"I suppose that made the plasma arc threat convincing."

"Speaking professionally, when one is standing next to the target, an assailant with bad aim is actually more alarming...."

Miles doesn't think the mothers of those girls are a big factor in
the issue; Ekaterin isn't sure. But it's all tied up in law and tradition,
and even if they make new laws they have to deal with this
situation under the old ones (and there's a lot of problems
here, not all obvious right away.)

A hundred and eighteen little girls. I know it's presented as a
bit of a joke, but there's a lot of tragedy there, too. Oh, and he
intends to keep going indefinitely, with the older ones caring
for the younger ones (he really sees them as almost slave
labour, there's not much thought to their development and
futures.

Mark is instantly protective towards the babies - they're not
clones but the situation isn't all that far from what he's seen
on JW.

And then Ekaterin is brilliant. Dowries. Using the old rules,
something that Vormuir can't deny. And it'd be an Imperial
command so he has no choice. Miles is ecstatic: it's
appropriate, it's legal, it's inescapable, and it solves his
problem perfectly. And he doesn't have to find another
solution.

Ekaterin hurries out to meet her tree men. Pym is glorious
again, trying to hint that Miles needs a strong, experienced
woman as his Countess, not some flighty young maiden.
Ekaterin instantly assumes he means that Miles is chasing a
flighty young maiden, well if he wants a suitable Vor wife
he has no choice - totally ignoring her own suitability. And
she tries not to get angry at the imaginary maiden for not
being good enough for him.

Miles and Mark, back in the library, have a chat. It's such an
interesting dynamic. Mark asks about the seizures, but Miles
totally refuses to let him blame himself. He wipes it all away, as
just something that happened - after all the angst it caused him.
He really does feel protective towards Mark.

And he shares his hopes for marriage with Ekaterin. Miles likes
tall, elegant brunettes; Mark likes rounded little blondes. Is there
a subconscious reaction there? Mark trying to be different
whenever possible? And Mark wants Kareen SO much, he
understands why she's staying away from him, but he's so
afraid of losing her. Killer offers to help if there's another man
involved.

Mark's scared to tell Miles about him and Kareen; he's not sure
if Miles will be more loyal to him or them. He doesn't see any
common ground, or that trying to get them together and happy
is a way to serve both sides. Mark sees himself as the outsider,
even in his close family.

Mark - the one who's struggling with becoming human - notes
that Miles doesn't just say 'I love her, and I want to marry her...'

Miles sketches the recent past, and that he has rivals.

Unfortunately, that doesn't stop the competition around here. No money, but she's beautiful, and her bloodlines are impeccable."

"Are you choosing a wife, or buying a horse?"

To be fair, he's showing how his rivals think. (Or how he thinks they
think. He's spot-on about Alexei, anyway.)

Killer wants to help. For a psychopath, he's very keen and supportive.

"...I'll recognize the tactical moment when I see it, I suppose. If my sense of timing hasn't totally deserted me. Penetrate the perimeter, set the trip lines, plant the suggestion?strike. Total victory!..."

Mark gets in some nice final snarks:

I'm not at all sure I'd choose to structure my most intimate relationship as a war. Is she the enemy, then?......I hope her aim is as good as Countess Vormuir's."





From fishman at panix.com  Wed Apr 13 16:24:39 2022
From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 15:24:39 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB384465070EF69E3C3792927BCEEC9@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.1.1649847601.21587.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384465070EF69E3C3792927BCEEC9@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <em52fbfb13-5b61-4af1-9d1b-848283e8f659@desktop-ckcgfo5>



------ Original Message ------
From: "Gwynne Powell" <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
To: "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk" <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Bcc: fishman at panix.com
Sent: 4/13/2022 10:51:58 AM
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5

>And he shares his hopes for marriage with Ekaterin. Miles likes
>tall, elegant brunettes; Mark likes rounded little blondes.
Is Kareen a LITTLE blonde? I thought that all the Koudelka girls were 
tall.
And Kareen has been described as towering over Mark.

Harvey



From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 13 16:24:44 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 15:24:44 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1649847601.21587.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1649847601.21587.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844B44DDB1AD347A83EBD6DCEEC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



This is an interesting chapter.

First, Ekaterin - normally so reserved - shares all the private details of Miles's
seizures with Mark. Does she subconsciously feel comfortable with him because
of the family link to Miles? She knows from his questions that Miles hasn't
shared the details, so why does she?

Then there's the relationship between Miles and Mark, and it's so sweet.
Miles is very protective of Mark, not allowing him to blame himself for the
seizures. Killer wants to help Miles (although Killer probably likes having an
excuse to go after anyone.) Mark snarks gently at Miles. You can see them
both carefully working out the details of their relationship. It's very touching.
Mark snarks at Miles, but very gently.

And Pym. Ohhh he's so lovely. He's trying SO hard to push the courtship along;
he persuades Ekaterin to wait for Miles, and he gives her that lovely unsubtle
speech about the poor armsmen and how Miles needs a strong wife. (As if
any of those armsmen can't take over and make Miles do the right thing in a
crisis.) And of course his rather clumsy and obvious attempt goes right by
Ekaterin, who instantly assumes that Miles is chasing a young girl. There's so
much humour in this book, it's really a sort of farce, with all the mistakes and
wrong assumptions, and self-deceptions.

But there's a darker undercurrent, with Ekaterin still obviously dealing with
the damage done by Tien. All through the baby discussion she's flashing back
to the decisions they - he - made about having Nikki. Was a body-birth really
fine and traditional, or just cheap? Could they have had more of those
children that she craved?

And there's Vormuir's babies, which Mark and Miles at least think are a bit of
a joke. But there's massive heartbreak there; a hundred and  eighteen women
who now have a child of theirs, fathered by another man. Can the women claim
their daughters? Apparently, legally, no (and Vormuir is the Count, so he'll decide
the court cases anyway.) And how many husbands would accept a child that's
not their own? But how many women will always yearn for that baby of theirs,
that they'll never raise? It's a massive heartbreak. Does he realise that there's
more than a hundred families in his District who now hate him?

And what about Vormuir's children with his wife? How do you feel knowing
you have more than a hundred half-sibs? Mark's family claimed him and
accepted him - and there he sits happily in the family home. Those 118 litte
girls will never be claimed like that. Again, there's a lot of pain and heartbreak
there.

Also... he planned on keeping the baby factory going. Hundreds, thousands,
of babies; what would that do to the genetics in his District? How about a
few generations on, when there's a heck of a lot of cousins marrying?
He'd have been far better off if he'd offered those replicators for free; run a
lottery each year, and give thirty couples the chance to have another baby.
He'd get the same population increase, the families will raise the children
at no cost to him, and his people might actually like him.

And at the end, Mark's reaction to Miles's odd view of his courtship. Mark
had to have lessons in how to be a human being, and he's only halfway there,
and HE can see that Miles is making some terrible decisions. And Miles has
fallen back on his strengths; courtship as a military campaign. Ohhh Miles.

This is an odd chapter; funny and heartbreaking all at once. And Ekaterin's
totally out of character behaviour - possibly showing how off-balance she is
when Miles is around?

From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net  Wed Apr 13 18:29:14 2022
From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 10:29:14 -0700
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5
In-Reply-To: <em52fbfb13-5b61-4af1-9d1b-848283e8f659@desktop-ckcgfo5>
References: <mailman.1.1649847601.21587.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384465070EF69E3C3792927BCEEC9@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
 <em52fbfb13-5b61-4af1-9d1b-848283e8f659@desktop-ckcgfo5>
Message-ID: <D9B39F64-AD5F-4A6A-AC46-9EC8E31E810F@comcast.net>



> On Apr 13, 2022, at 8:24 AM, Harvey Fishman <fishman at panix.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Gwynne Powell" <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
> To: "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk" <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
> Bcc: fishman at panix.com
> Sent: 4/13/2022 10:51:58 AM
> Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5
> 
>> And he shares his hopes for marriage with Ekaterin. Miles likes
>> tall, elegant brunettes; Mark likes rounded little blondes.
> Is Kareen a LITTLE blonde? I thought that all the Koudelka girls were tall.
> And Kareen has been described as towering over Mark.
> 

Kareen is the shortest of the Koudelka daughters (I suspect that still meant that she was taller than at least half of the Barrayaran women in her generation).

"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
?-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com


From sylviamcivers at gmail.com  Wed Apr 13 19:28:46 2022
From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 14:28:46 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844B44DDB1AD347A83EBD6DCEEC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1649847601.21587.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844B44DDB1AD347A83EBD6DCEEC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAD6Rr-zMk9J0QTrRNeG9=ZnBPhc25eqrGLyPiBVEUtkA8pJVTA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 11:24 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
> ...But there's massive heartbreak there; a hundred and  eighteen women who
> now have a child of theirs, fathered by another man. Can the women
> claim their daughters? Apparently, legally, no (and Vormuir is the Count,
> so he'll decide the court cases anyway.)


Wait, didn't the medical situation with Nikki show that boys go to the dad
but girls go to the mom?  The daughters should _all_ go to their mothers.
Something off here.


> ...How about a

few generations on, when there's a heck of a lot of cousins marrying?
>

Let the fics commence!
But really, there are a lot of stories in RL and in fiction, where Dude is
married to Alice but has a kid with Betty, and voila, Alice's & Betty's
kids want to get married.  Do they find out before or after their
incest-baby is born?



> He'd have been far better off if he'd offered those replicators for free;
> run a lottery each year, and give thirty couples the chance to have another
> baby.
> He'd get the same population increase, the families will raise the
> children at no cost to him, and his people might actually like him.
>

Oh, that would be a good idea! Self-selecting for families that are eager
for tech, self selecting for people who think body-births are better.  Nice.

I want Cordelia's take on all those babies.
Does anyone remember that she had been so greedy, thinking of THREE
children for herself?

Sylvia

From proto at panix.com  Wed Apr 13 19:37:14 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 14:37:14 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <CAD6Rr-zMk9J0QTrRNeG9=ZnBPhc25eqrGLyPiBVEUtkA8pJVTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1649847601.21587.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844B44DDB1AD347A83EBD6DCEEC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAD6Rr-zMk9J0QTrRNeG9=ZnBPhc25eqrGLyPiBVEUtkA8pJVTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5C052459-A057-455A-A17B-961BC88C2D6F@panix.com>



> On Apr 13, 2022, at 2:28 PM, Sylvia McIvers <sylviamcivers at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Let the fics commence!
> But really, there are a lot of stories in RL and in fiction, where Dude is
> married to Alice but has a kid with Betty, and voila, Alice's & Betty's
> kids want to get married.  Do they find out before or after their
> incest-baby is born?

In RL doctors using artificial insemination used their own sperm. You can see the problems
that could arise particularly in a small town. Anyway, people finding they have unknown siblings
with genetic ancestry tracing.

There is a song about a man whose father tells him that all his girl friends are half siblings, until
his mother tells him, ?Don?t worry, you father isn?t your father, but you father don?t know.  :)

? 
?Of all the means to insure happiness throughout the whole life, by far the most important is the acquisition of friends.? 
~Epicurus


From proto at panix.com  Wed Apr 13 19:40:43 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 14:40:43 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <CAD6Rr-zMk9J0QTrRNeG9=ZnBPhc25eqrGLyPiBVEUtkA8pJVTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1649847601.21587.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844B44DDB1AD347A83EBD6DCEEC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAD6Rr-zMk9J0QTrRNeG9=ZnBPhc25eqrGLyPiBVEUtkA8pJVTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DF910019-0DB0-4D52-9E4E-BB6C3798EE91@panix.com>



> On Apr 13, 2022, at 2:28 PM, Sylvia McIvers <sylviamcivers at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Wait, didn't the medical situation with Nikki show that boys go to the dad
> but girls go to the mom?  The daughters should _all_ go to their mothers.
> Something off here.

That suggestion was rejected because, the mothers would be upset, and might not want them,
not to mention that it would just benefit the malefactor.

? 
?Of all the means to insure happiness throughout the whole life, by far the most important is the acquisition of friends.? 
~Epicurus


From pouncer at aol.com  Wed Apr 13 20:43:41 2022
From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 14:43:41 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixie for April 13
References: <634e8b29-20da-9767-1f13-f782e795ee65.ref@aol.com>
Message-ID: <634e8b29-20da-9767-1f13-f782e795ee65@aol.com>

M. Haller Yamada arranges a virtual star-viewing party for the
birthdays today.  I appreciate it.  An extra and actual burger will be
grilled in honor of the list collectively.


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


From pouncer at aol.com  Wed Apr 13 20:44:28 2022
From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 14:44:28 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5
References: <09ccca58-92d7-dad8-58af-c6d43effed4c.ref@aol.com>
Message-ID: <09ccca58-92d7-dad8-58af-c6d43effed4c@aol.com>

Gwynne:
  > Ekaterin instantly assumes [Pym] means that Miles is chasing
  > a flighty young maiden, well if he wants a suitable Vor wife
  > he has no choice - totally ignoring her own suitability. And
  > she tries not to get angry at the imaginary maiden for not
  > being good enough for him.

This follows on from the "this and that" conversation at the
end of _Komarr_. Ekaterin:  "Have you had a great many
girlfriends?"  If he hadn't, she'd have to dismiss her whole
gender as congenital idiots. ... Why weren't females following
him around in herds?  Could no Barrayaran woman see past his
surface, or their own cocked-up noses?

The interesting postulate of this analysis -- suggested by
Miles in that he could convince none of his Nexus girlfriends
to follow him home -- is that Barrayaran maidens are
superficial and fixated on appearance.  One does wonder...

-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


From saffronrose at me.com  Wed Apr 13 21:05:28 2022
From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 13:05:28 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: a wizard alone nme edition
Message-ID: <9A7AF5AD-F38D-4C47-9C5C-148AEA2B3109@me.com>

?
On Apr 13, 2022, at 12:29 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
> ?On 13/04/2022 06:54, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote:
>> On Apr 12, 2022, at 11:44 AM, Matthew George <matt.msg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ?Her depiction of autism offended autism activists, because it wasn't merely
>>> theirs repeated.
>> Let me guess: Autism Speaks, which believes autism should be ?cured? and eradicated, objected to however the ?disorder? was depicted by her.
> 
> Just because I am uncomfortable about making assumptions, I tried to google the controversy.
> 
> I didn't find much, which suggests it's not a big thing. What I did find suggests that the problematic version is the first one, where the (spoiler) the young wizard gets cured of autism. In a brief search I haven't found anybody complaining about the new version - but I may just not have hit on the right set of keywords.
> 
> Here is a review that compares both versions in what feels to me like a balanced, not adversarial way:
> 
> https://disabilityinkidlit.com/2015/04/29/review-a-wizard-alone-by-diane-duane/

<< As for Darryl, he is aware of how others react to him, saying, ?Everyone laughs. Especially the ones who don?t do it out loud; they do it the loudest.?>>

Not in my family of origin, or my married family. For me, it would have piqued my curiosity?ok, so I got my share of laughing-at?and engaged my empathy, because that?s how I work.

<<Because the portrayals of autism between the two versions are very different?among other things, Darryl is ?cured? of his autism in the original, while in the New Millennium Editions he [explicitly refuses, italicized in original] the chance to leave his autism behind?reviewing them sequentially makes the most sense>>

I hate having to take the pills every day, but I value how the difference in neural pathways affects my intellectual processes. If I could dump the emotional roller coaster, sure?but that?s not the only thing happening because of the difference.

<<Even though the reasons that Darryl and Nita experience ?the pain of being alone? are different, they can empathize with each other?s experiences. The connection between Nita starting to recover from her depression and Darryl leaving his autism behind, however, is problematic. Depression and autism are not, in fact, the same thing, and treating the idea of reconnecting with the world after depression-related isolation as similar to suddenly being not-autistic doesn?t really work.>>

I?ll say it doesn?t! Leaving depression behind is an immense relief. Suddenly being neurotypical would be scary and disorienting, if I can posit from how I?d react to the reverse.

Thank you, Matija, for finding this. The first character?the main one at that?I encountered who was bipolar was Abigail Padgett?s Bo Bradley in Child of Silence. Bo?s a bipolar I (I quack like a duck, with BPD-NOS, much milder ups, but the downs are deadly). She?s a child abuse investigator in San Diego, where I lived from 8-18, with two years in Albuquerque in the middle. The character resonated with me, and I always knew where she was.

A. Marina Fournier
saffronrose at me.com
Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e
Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA
Sent from iFionnghuala

From mathews55 at msn.com  Wed Apr 13 23:08:38 2022
From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 22:08:38 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: a wizard alone nme edition
In-Reply-To: <9A7AF5AD-F38D-4C47-9C5C-148AEA2B3109@me.com>
References: <9A7AF5AD-F38D-4C47-9C5C-148AEA2B3109@me.com>
Message-ID: <MN2PR04MB68470F4CBBDA3E7C219A5347B4EC9@MN2PR04MB6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Okay. My verdict: Diane Duane tried. She really did. We're talking the knowledge level of times past in some cases, and an update that, like many updates, can sometimes be confusing.
________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2022 2:05 PM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Cc: A. Marina Fournier <saffronrose at me.com>
Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: a wizard alone nme edition


On Apr 13, 2022, at 12:29 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
> ?On 13/04/2022 06:54, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote:
>> On Apr 12, 2022, at 11:44 AM, Matthew George <matt.msg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ?Her depiction of autism offended autism activists, because it wasn't merely
>>> theirs repeated.
>> Let me guess: Autism Speaks, which believes autism should be ?cured? and eradicated, objected to however the ?disorder? was depicted by her.
>
> Just because I am uncomfortable about making assumptions, I tried to google the controversy.
>
> I didn't find much, which suggests it's not a big thing. What I did find suggests that the problematic version is the first one, where the (spoiler) the young wizard gets cured of autism. In a brief search I haven't found anybody complaining about the new version - but I may just not have hit on the right set of keywords.
>
> Here is a review that compares both versions in what feels to me like a balanced, not adversarial way:
>
> https://disabilityinkidlit.com/2015/04/29/review-a-wizard-alone-by-diane-duane/

<< As for Darryl, he is aware of how others react to him, saying, ?Everyone laughs. Especially the ones who don?t do it out loud; they do it the loudest.?>>

Not in my family of origin, or my married family. For me, it would have piqued my curiosity?ok, so I got my share of laughing-at?and engaged my empathy, because that?s how I work.

<<Because the portrayals of autism between the two versions are very different?among other things, Darryl is ?cured? of his autism in the original, while in the New Millennium Editions he [explicitly refuses, italicized in original] the chance to leave his autism behind?reviewing them sequentially makes the most sense>>

I hate having to take the pills every day, but I value how the difference in neural pathways affects my intellectual processes. If I could dump the emotional roller coaster, sure?but that?s not the only thing happening because of the difference.

<<Even though the reasons that Darryl and Nita experience ?the pain of being alone? are different, they can empathize with each other?s experiences. The connection between Nita starting to recover from her depression and Darryl leaving his autism behind, however, is problematic. Depression and autism are not, in fact, the same thing, and treating the idea of reconnecting with the world after depression-related isolation as similar to suddenly being not-autistic doesn?t really work.>>

I?ll say it doesn?t! Leaving depression behind is an immense relief. Suddenly being neurotypical would be scary and disorienting, if I can posit from how I?d react to the reverse.

Thank you, Matija, for finding this. The first character?the main one at that?I encountered who was bipolar was Abigail Padgett?s Bo Bradley in Child of Silence. Bo?s a bipolar I (I quack like a duck, with BPD-NOS, much milder ups, but the downs are deadly). She?s a child abuse investigator in San Diego, where I lived from 8-18, with two years in Albuquerque in the middle. The character resonated with me, and I always knew where she was.

A. Marina Fournier
saffronrose at me.com
Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e
Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA
Sent from iFionnghuala
--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold

From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk  Wed Apr 13 23:45:06 2022
From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 23:45:06 +0100
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 3 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <CAO7QBz_rrniPnRcOSHCq64LWV3_fF-K4+Ly4d7e0F2zwc416Qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1649761201.4879.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38448D3AC6C605029804051ACEED9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAO7QBz_rrniPnRcOSHCq64LWV3_fF-K4+Ly4d7e0F2zwc416Qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1eke5h1e6ae51i5llr2aheok6k586qtgke@4ax.com>

On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 11:35:18 -0500, Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com>
wrote:

>Enrique is almost the epitome of the "absent-minded professor"
>stereotype---within his field, he's one of the top men anywhere, but
>outside of it, he's nearly clueless---he's so absorbed with his field that
>to him, the rest of the world is an annoyance and distraction.

We had a language teacher at school like that: practically an idiot
savant.  He spoke dozens of languages, but never knew which classroom he
was supposed to be in.

He used to go to a country he'd never visited before, during the long
summer holiday, and he'd come back with a working knowledge of the
language.

If not for the almost total disconnect from anything practical, he'd
have made a great spy.
--
If everything's under control, you're going too slow.   - Mario Andretti


From beatrice_otter at zoho.com  Thu Apr 14 00:13:56 2022
From: beatrice_otter at zoho.com (Beatrice Otter)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 16:13:56 -0700
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5
In-Reply-To: <09ccca58-92d7-dad8-58af-c6d43effed4c@aol.com>
References: <09ccca58-92d7-dad8-58af-c6d43effed4c.ref@aol.com>
 <09ccca58-92d7-dad8-58af-c6d43effed4c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <18025347377.c6195a44165311.5893157272778707450@zoho.com>

---- On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:44:28 -0700 Pouncer via Lois-Bujold <mailto:lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote ----?
This follows on from the "this and that" conversation at the 
end of _Komarr_. Ekaterin:  "Have you had a great many 
girlfriends?"  If he hadn't, she'd have to dismiss her whole 
gender as congenital idiots. ... Why weren't females following 
him around in herds?  Could no Barrayaran woman see past his 
surface, or their own cocked-up noses? 
 
The interesting postulate of this analysis -- suggested by 
Miles in that he could convince none of his Nexus girlfriends 
to follow him home -- is that Barrayaran maidens are 
superficial and fixated on appearance.  One does wonder... 

Beatrice Otter:
I don't see how that follows? Miles has spent the vast majority of his adult life outside of Barrayaran space. Of course he's had only galactic girlfriends! He hasn't been on Barrayar (until now) long enough to find one there!

Add to that, the problem isn't that he's ugly. The problem is that, to Barrayarans, he belongs to a highly discriminated-against category. People who are the butt of the joke and the monster under the bed and *absolutely* not marriage material--he looks exactly like someone who, to Barrayaran eyes, should have been killed at birth and *certainly* never be allowed to reproduce. Even people who don't believe in infanticide would probably still not see him as a suitable romantic partner. Once they get to know him, maybe ... but he hasn't been on Barrayar *long* enough at a stretch to get to know any women long enough to overcome that initial response. Except the Koudelka girls, and he's not interested in them and they're not interested in him.

Beatrice Otter

From beatrice_otter at zoho.com  Thu Apr 14 00:19:37 2022
From: beatrice_otter at zoho.com (Beatrice Otter)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 16:19:37 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Gregor's Childhood
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38444ACCA899EF7E0FDFDD3DCEEC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1904.1649834957.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38444ACCA899EF7E0FDFDD3DCEEC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <1802539a823.12162f24f165412.2134333986243773172@zoho.com>

---- On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 03:49:54 -0700 Gwynne Powell <mailto:gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote ----

At roughly four or five Gregor becomes a ward of Aral and Cordelia. 
Miles is born, there's a rift with Piotr, and then the family move into 
the Residence. Did Gregor live in Vorkosigan House for a few months, 
until Miles was born? Cordelia would never have left him in the 
Residence alone. But if Cordelia and Aral stayed with him in the 
Residence, it wouldn't be such an important point that they were 
banned from the House by Piotr when Miles was born. 


Beatrice Otter:
Define "alone." Cordelia was not his primary caregiver; he almost certainly had nannies. If he had the same nanny he had when his mother was alive, that continuity plus staying in his own home would be beneficial to his mental health. And I cannot imagine that Aral would allow him to live in Vorkosigan House. Holy shit, the political ramifications of that! Raising the Vorbarra Emperor in the Vorkosigan home! I think that would be a step too far for anyone who disliked or distrusted Aral.

Beatrice Otter

From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Thu Apr 14 01:03:05 2022
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:03:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB384465070EF69E3C3792927BCEEC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1649847601.21587.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384465070EF69E3C3792927BCEEC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204131956320.19743@pannier.local>

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022, Gwynne Powell wrote:
> Miles doesn't think the mothers of those girls are a big factor in
> the issue; Ekaterin isn't sure. But it's all tied up in law and tradition,
> and even if they make new laws they have to deal with this
> situation under the old ones (and there's a lot of problems
> here, not all obvious right away.)

At this point, I'm thinking of the horrible orphanages that existed in 
Romania under Ceau?escu and how they badly twisted the children who came 
out of them. Or the long-lasting effects of residential school for 
Indigenous children here in Canada (minus the racism, but without even 
being with their mothers for their first few years.)

> A hundred and eighteen little girls. I know it's presented as a
> bit of a joke, but there's a lot of tragedy there, too. Oh, and he
> intends to keep going indefinitely, with the older ones caring
> for the younger ones (he really sees them as almost slave
> labour, there's not much thought to their development and
> futures.

Institutional care isn't good for children in general.

> Mark is instantly protective towards the babies - they're not
> clones but the situation isn't all that far from what he's seen
> on JW.

Exactly.

> And then Ekaterin is brilliant. Dowries. Using the old rules,
> something that Vormuir can't deny. And it'd be an Imperial
> command so he has no choice. Miles is ecstatic: it's
> appropriate, it's legal, it's inescapable, and it solves his
> problem perfectly. And he doesn't have to find another
> solution.

It's a good solution for stopping the process, but it still leaves 100+ 
little girls who may not be well cared for. I'd be looking at finding 
foster homes or adoption in other districts or at least frequent 
inspections and forcing high standards of care.

Alayne

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca

What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich

From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Thu Apr 14 01:05:27 2022
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:05:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844B44DDB1AD347A83EBD6DCEEC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1649847601.21587.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844B44DDB1AD347A83EBD6DCEEC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204132004470.19743@pannier.local>

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022, Gwynne Powell wrote:
> Also... he planned on keeping the baby factory going. Hundreds, thousands,
> of babies; what would that do to the genetics in his District? How about a
> few generations on, when there's a heck of a lot of cousins marrying?
> He'd have been far better off if he'd offered those replicators for free; run a
> lottery each year, and give thirty couples the chance to have another baby.
> He'd get the same population increase, the families will raise the children
> at no cost to him, and his people might actually like him.

Very good point!

Alayne

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca

What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich

From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Thu Apr 14 01:08:51 2022
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 20:08:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <5C052459-A057-455A-A17B-961BC88C2D6F@panix.com>
References: <mailman.1.1649847601.21587.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844B44DDB1AD347A83EBD6DCEEC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAD6Rr-zMk9J0QTrRNeG9=ZnBPhc25eqrGLyPiBVEUtkA8pJVTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5C052459-A057-455A-A17B-961BC88C2D6F@panix.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204132006580.19743@pannier.local>

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022, WalterStuartBushell wrote:
> In RL doctors using artificial insemination used their own sperm. You can see the problems
> that could arise particularly in a small town. Anyway, people finding they have unknown siblings
> with genetic ancestry tracing.

There was a nasty scandal up here in Ottawa in which a renowned fertility 
doctor ended up using his own sperm rather than the donor he promised -- 
over a period of decades. There are a fair number of "Barwin babies" who 
have now found each other.

Alayne

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca

What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 14 01:55:33 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 00:55:33 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1923.1649874545.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1923.1649874545.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844A4BC8C23B48CB2D1777ECEEF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Sylvia McIvers <sylviamcivers at gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 11:24 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> ...But there's massive heartbreak there; a hundred and  eighteen women who
> now have a child of theirs, fathered by another man. Can the women
> claim their daughters? Apparently, legally, no (and Vormuir is the Count,
> so he'll decide the court cases anyway.)

Wait, didn't the medical situation with Nikki show that boys go to the dad
but girls go to the mom?  The daughters should _all_ go to their mothers.
Something off here.

Gwynne: Ekaterin mentions that, but apparently because the eggs weren't
claimed by the destruction date they no longer 'belong' to the women. The
District, which is Vormuir, owns the clinic, so apparently ownership defaults to
the clinic. And him.
Maybe the women could sue because they expected the eggs to be destroyed,
but Vormuir is pretty sure they can't. And he's the top judge in his District, so
any case they bring ends up with him...


From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 14 02:21:28 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 01:21:28 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: a wizard alone nme edition
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1931.1649889916.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1931.1649889916.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844F5F62B03F0F71C87057ECEEF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Pat Mathews <mathews55 at msn.com>

Okay. My verdict: Diane Duane tried. She really did. We're talking the knowledge level of times past in some cases, and an update that, like many updates, can sometimes be confusing.

Gwynne: This is why it's so confronting sometimes when a writer wants to include
a diverse range of characters into a book, movie or TV. There's always the worry about
getting it right, and doing justice to them all. But if they don't try, it cuts a whole
section of society away from visibility.

From wawenri at msn.com  Thu Apr 14 05:18:29 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 04:18:29 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204131956320.19743@pannier.local>
References: <mailman.1.1649847601.21587.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384465070EF69E3C3792927BCEEC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204131956320.19743@pannier.local>
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB484788A0EBEB2EFBB1DF3E1FB4EF9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

Miles does think that the current crop of girls are not being abused.

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.

________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of alayne--- via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2022 6:03:05 PM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Cc: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca <alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca>
Subject: Re: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022, Gwynne Powell wrote:
> Miles doesn't think the mothers of those girls are a big factor in
> the issue; Ekaterin isn't sure. But it's all tied up in law and tradition,
> and even if they make new laws they have to deal with this
> situation under the old ones (and there's a lot of problems
> here, not all obvious right away.)

At this point, I'm thinking of the horrible orphanages that existed in
Romania under Ceau?escu and how they badly twisted the children who came
out of them. Or the long-lasting effects of residential school for
Indigenous children here in Canada (minus the racism, but without even
being with their mothers for their first few years.)

> A hundred and eighteen little girls. I know it's presented as a
> bit of a joke, but there's a lot of tragedy there, too. Oh, and he
> intends to keep going indefinitely, with the older ones caring
> for the younger ones (he really sees them as almost slave
> labour, there's not much thought to their development and
> futures.

Institutional care isn't good for children in general.

> Mark is instantly protective towards the babies - they're not
> clones but the situation isn't all that far from what he's seen
> on JW.

Exactly.

> And then Ekaterin is brilliant. Dowries. Using the old rules,
> something that Vormuir can't deny. And it'd be an Imperial
> command so he has no choice. Miles is ecstatic: it's
> appropriate, it's legal, it's inescapable, and it solves his
> problem perfectly. And he doesn't have to find another
> solution.

It's a good solution for stopping the process, but it still leaves 100+
little girls who may not be well cared for. I'd be looking at finding
foster homes or adoption in other districts or at least frequent
inspections and forcing high standards of care.

Alayne

--
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca

What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich
--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cdcac31ac9bf047b4053108da1daa2e37%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637854914015568920%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=S%2F4%2Fd2WAZjUinLN8%2FopOl1veK9PfBaDfTYOo%2BCiOE7o%3D&amp;reserved=0

From ravenclaweric at gmail.com  Thu Apr 14 05:52:25 2022
From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 23:52:25 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5
In-Reply-To: <CO3PR18MB484788A0EBEB2EFBB1DF3E1FB4EF9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.1.1649847601.21587.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384465070EF69E3C3792927BCEEC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204131956320.19743@pannier.local>
 <CO3PR18MB484788A0EBEB2EFBB1DF3E1FB4EF9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAO7QBz8e8B9jd=ptZCa8ySra+HAyFcBMxzsgXbHYA7+3N3m=bA@mail.gmail.com>

When they were describing the girl-garden, I kept thinking that if my
mother had been along to see it, she'd have wanted to plunge right on in.
Kind of like turning Ekaterin loose in a really huge, elaborate garden, or
Count Piotr in the horse barns at the Iowa State Fair.

I will admit that if I'd been along as well, I'd have shortly found myself
conned into helping Mom, who'd probably be sitting in the middle of a crowd
of little girls, telling them stories and showing them simple
slight-of-hand tricks.

On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 11:18 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com> wrote:

> Miles does think that the current crop of girls are not being abused.
>
> William A Wenrich
>
>   *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of
> alayne--- via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2022 6:03:05 PM
> To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <
> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
> Cc: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca <alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca>
> Subject: Re: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5
>
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022, Gwynne Powell wrote:
> > Miles doesn't think the mothers of those girls are a big factor in
> > the issue; Ekaterin isn't sure. But it's all tied up in law and
> tradition,
> > and even if they make new laws they have to deal with this
> > situation under the old ones (and there's a lot of problems
> > here, not all obvious right away.)
>
> At this point, I'm thinking of the horrible orphanages that existed in
> Romania under Ceau?escu and how they badly twisted the children who came
> out of them. Or the long-lasting effects of residential school for
> Indigenous children here in Canada (minus the racism, but without even
> being with their mothers for their first few years.)
>
> > A hundred and eighteen little girls. I know it's presented as a
> > bit of a joke, but there's a lot of tragedy there, too. Oh, and he
> > intends to keep going indefinitely, with the older ones caring
> > for the younger ones (he really sees them as almost slave
> > labour, there's not much thought to their development and
> > futures.
>
> Institutional care isn't good for children in general.
>
> > Mark is instantly protective towards the babies - they're not
> > clones but the situation isn't all that far from what he's seen
> > on JW.
>
> Exactly.
>
> > And then Ekaterin is brilliant. Dowries. Using the old rules,
> > something that Vormuir can't deny. And it'd be an Imperial
> > command so he has no choice. Miles is ecstatic: it's
> > appropriate, it's legal, it's inescapable, and it solves his
> > problem perfectly. And he doesn't have to find another
> > solution.
>
> It's a good solution for stopping the process, but it still leaves 100+
> little girls who may not be well cared for. I'd be looking at finding
> foster homes or adoption in other districts or at least frequent
> inspections and forcing high standards of care.
>
> Alayne
>
> --
> Alayne McGregor
> alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca
>
> What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
> need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
> institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
> and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cdcac31ac9bf047b4053108da1daa2e37%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637854914015568920%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=S%2F4%2Fd2WAZjUinLN8%2FopOl1veK9PfBaDfTYOo%2BCiOE7o%3D&amp;reserved=0
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 14 09:37:39 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 08:37:39 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Vormuir's girls
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1939.1649909918.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1939.1649909918.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844523EF4CFB4F9886DB150CEEF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>


Just a few stray thoughts on more complicating factors:
He apparently has legal ownership of the eggs, because they weren't claimed
by a certain date. That meant they were abandoned and would be destroyed -
but instead he claimed the abandoned property. They stopped belonging to
the mothers when they weren't claimed, so the mother's don't get their
daughters - that's Vormuir's view.

He plans on having the older girls look after the younger when they're old
enough, which sounds like he's not planning higher education for them. They're
going to look after the next waves of babies until they're old enough to be
married off (I wonder if he was going to charge the prospective husbands? Or
advertise them? It could drift into some nasty practices.

He has two carers for every six girls - does that mean a small household of six
toddlers and their two carers, or is that just the ratio? From Miles's description
of them all giggling and squealing together it sounds like a large orphanage,
with staff.

So when the girls grow up, if they go out into the world, or get married, they'll
have plenty of half-sisters, but no older family. No parents, grandparents, aunts,
uncles, etc. Nobody to turn to for help. And in bastard-hating Barrayar, they'll
be pretty much defenceless (or they would have been. The dowry will help.)

How will this affect Vormuir's legitimate children? Knowing there's so many
half-sibs out there, and that your father can breed with so little thought or care?

The mothers. I'm sure that most of them will want their daughters. But many of
them won't be able to take them; plenty of husbands won't want to raise another
man's child. Even when the child is given to the mother, there'll always be a
difference. There's a lot of heartbreak there. Maybe the dowry will be a positive
for the child, make her more acceptable. (Or make the rest of the family jealous?)

Anyone bringing legal cases about this in Vormuir's District run into Vormuir as the
judge, so there's no chance there.

Miles isn't keen on organising the mothers to take the girls, because that doesn't
punish Vormuir - he gets the girls in his District and they're raised without cost to him.
But he needs to think about what's best fo r the girls, not what's worst for Vormuir.
Maybe now that he has to pay dowries Miles will be happy to see the girls adopted
by their mothers, or her family, or other adoptive parents.

What about those children, if he does allow adoptions? How do you feel when you know
that other girls were claimed by their mothers, but you weren't and were left to an
ordinary adoption, or even just long-term fostering?

However you look at it, it's not a great situation. The children are fed and cared for,
but not loved. And not raised in a family situation - which might make it more difficult
for them when they do marry and raise their own children. Vormuir is making
hundreds of people stressed and unhappy, and storing up a lot of difficulty for his
daughters.

I hope Gregor makes him pay a FORTUNE.



From wawenri at msn.com  Thu Apr 14 13:50:49 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:50:49 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Vormuir's girls
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844523EF4CFB4F9886DB150CEEF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1939.1649909918.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844523EF4CFB4F9886DB150CEEF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB4847CC5C2EFF9A149AE9CDF1B4EF9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

If I understand the rules correctly, he has to pay the dowries whether the girls are adopted or not.

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.

________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2022 2:37:39 AM
To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: [LMB] Vormuir's girls


Just a few stray thoughts on more complicating factors:
He apparently has legal ownership of the eggs, because they weren't claimed
by a certain date. That meant they were abandoned and would be destroyed -
but instead he claimed the abandoned property. They stopped belonging to
the mothers when they weren't claimed, so the mother's don't get their
daughters - that's Vormuir's view.

He plans on having the older girls look after the younger when they're old
enough, which sounds like he's not planning higher education for them. They're
going to look after the next waves of babies until they're old enough to be
married off (I wonder if he was going to charge the prospective husbands? Or
advertise them? It could drift into some nasty practices.

He has two carers for every six girls - does that mean a small household of six
toddlers and their two carers, or is that just the ratio? From Miles's description
of them all giggling and squealing together it sounds like a large orphanage,
with staff.

So when the girls grow up, if they go out into the world, or get married, they'll
have plenty of half-sisters, but no older family. No parents, grandparents, aunts,
uncles, etc. Nobody to turn to for help. And in bastard-hating Barrayar, they'll
be pretty much defenceless (or they would have been. The dowry will help.)

How will this affect Vormuir's legitimate children? Knowing there's so many
half-sibs out there, and that your father can breed with so little thought or care?

The mothers. I'm sure that most of them will want their daughters. But many of
them won't be able to take them; plenty of husbands won't want to raise another
man's child. Even when the child is given to the mother, there'll always be a
difference. There's a lot of heartbreak there. Maybe the dowry will be a positive
for the child, make her more acceptable. (Or make the rest of the family jealous?)

Anyone bringing legal cases about this in Vormuir's District run into Vormuir as the
judge, so there's no chance there.

Miles isn't keen on organising the mothers to take the girls, because that doesn't
punish Vormuir - he gets the girls in his District and they're raised without cost to him.
But he needs to think about what's best fo r the girls, not what's worst for Vormuir.
Maybe now that he has to pay dowries Miles will be happy to see the girls adopted
by their mothers, or her family, or other adoptive parents.

What about those children, if he does allow adoptions? How do you feel when you know
that other girls were claimed by their mothers, but you weren't and were left to an
ordinary adoption, or even just long-term fostering?

However you look at it, it's not a great situation. The children are fed and cared for,
but not loved. And not raised in a family situation - which might make it more difficult
for them when they do marry and raise their own children. Vormuir is making
hundreds of people stressed and unhappy, and storing up a lot of difficulty for his
daughters.

I hope Gregor makes him pay a FORTUNE.


--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7C199367639bdf4c88fc1308da1df20fb4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637855222735982830%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=uXQ9ubJV3Kik8azXumoJBNj2JTbpgthMqw1xcUJlkZ8%3D&amp;reserved=0

From proto at panix.com  Thu Apr 14 15:11:11 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 10:11:11 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Vormuir's girls
In-Reply-To: <CO3PR18MB4847CC5C2EFF9A149AE9CDF1B4EF9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.1939.1649909918.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844523EF4CFB4F9886DB150CEEF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CO3PR18MB4847CC5C2EFF9A149AE9CDF1B4EF9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <255895F8-0E41-4145-89D8-255864548D27@panix.com>



> On Apr 14, 2022, at 8:50 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com> wrote:
> 
> However you look at it, it's not a great situation. The children are fed and cared for,
> but not loved. And not raised in a family situation - which might make it more difficult
> for them when they do marry and raise their own children. Vormuir is making
> hundreds of people stressed and unhappy, and storing up a lot of difficulty for his
> daughters.
> 
> I hope Gregor makes him pay a FORTUNE.

The rest can be handled later, this stops him from proceeding further.

Do the laws of Barrayar at this time protect conceptions in uterine replicators?

? 
In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. 
Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over."
--tweet by British columnist, Dan Hodges, June 15, 2015?


From ravenclaweric at gmail.com  Thu Apr 14 16:35:21 2022
From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 10:35:21 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Vormuir's girls
In-Reply-To: <255895F8-0E41-4145-89D8-255864548D27@panix.com>
References: <mailman.1939.1649909918.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844523EF4CFB4F9886DB150CEEF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CO3PR18MB4847CC5C2EFF9A149AE9CDF1B4EF9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
 <255895F8-0E41-4145-89D8-255864548D27@panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAO7QBz931O+7aStVUR17HWD0=cdB8YzPhNMtD5ESyFE00UADVQ@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder what they could have done if Vormuir had got the sperm he used
from, say, Jackson's Whole or Beta Colony.  If they weren't genetically his
daughters, could they require him to provide dowries for them?

Speaking of dowries, my family used to know a Greek lady who'd emigrated to
the US as a young girl because she knew that the dowry her family could
provide her was too small to attract a husband in Greece.  In a lot of
ways, she was a proud Greek all her life (if she didn't like something,
she'd call it "Turkish," as in "This TURKISH car won't start!") but mention
dowries, and she'd get very, very cranky.

And I can imagine how my own mother would have reacted to the news that one
of her eggs was now a little girl, and I had a little half-sister.  She'd
WANT that little girl, my dad would be getting ready to welcome a new
little member of the family (both my parents were utter death on
mistreating the illegitimate---Dad had good personal reasons to feel that
way, and Mom just thought it was cruel and hateful behavior) and I'd be
saying "Mom...Mom!  Put. Down. That. Axe!  Subdividing Count Vormuir is
just a momentary pleasure and will get you Talked About!  And it'll
aggravate your tendinitis!"  My mother had a temper and a half, and when
her "Mama Bear" instincts were roused, she feared nothing on earth.

On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 9:11 AM WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com> wrote:

>
>
> > On Apr 14, 2022, at 8:50 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com> wrote:
> >
> > However you look at it, it's not a great situation. The children are fed
> and cared for,
> > but not loved. And not raised in a family situation - which might make
> it more difficult
> > for them when they do marry and raise their own children. Vormuir is
> making
> > hundreds of people stressed and unhappy, and storing up a lot of
> difficulty for his
> > daughters.
> >
> > I hope Gregor makes him pay a FORTUNE.
>
> The rest can be handled later, this stops him from proceeding further.
>
> Do the laws of Barrayar at this time protect conceptions in uterine
> replicators?
>
> ?
> In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate.
> Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over."
> --tweet by British columnist, Dan Hodges, June 15, 2015?
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Thu Apr 14 18:07:32 2022
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:07:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] So the Hugo Awards have been announced - my take on the
 nominations
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204141233330.4879@pannier.local>

Apparently they were actually released April 7, but I only noticed in an 
email from tor.com today.

You can see the full list at

https://www.tor.com/2022/04/07/announcing-the-2022-hugo-award-finalists/

In Best Novel, I can highly recommend

     A Desolation Called Peace by Arkady Martine (Tor)
     - brilliant, as good as the first in the series and taking it in 
unexpected but totally reasonable directions, loved the characters and how 
they fit into their societies

     A Master of Djinn by P. Dj?l? Clark (Tordotcom / Orbit UK)
     - just amazing, a breakneck ride through a fully-realized alternate 
world, featuring characters previously introduced in his novellas and 
more fleshed out here. Lots of twists in the plots & characters. Really 
inventive; no Orientalism either.

I also enjoyed
     The Galaxy, and the Ground Within by Becky Chambers (Harper Voyager / 
Hodder & Stoughton)
     - an SF novel with elements of a locked-room mystery, also following 
up on some of her characters previously introduced. A good read.

     Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir (Ballantine / Del Rey)
     - the alien was really well done and again we had a hero who solved 
what should have been an insoluble problem. Writing style is serviceable.

I haven't read:
     Light From Uncommon Stars by Ryka Aoki (Tor / St Martin?s Press)

     She Who Became the Sun by Shelley Parker-Chan (Tor / Mantle)

----------

In Best Novella:

     A Psalm for the Wild-Built by Becky Chambers (Tordotcom)
     - Read and enjoyed. Felt a bit slight but the characters and setting 
were interesting. A sequel was definitely indicated.

     A Spindle Splintered by Alix E. Harrow (Tordotcom)
     - Quite enjoyed. A feminist, modern retelling of Sleeping Beauty with 
a better ending. It uses edited versions of Arthur Rackham drawing 
throughout to great effect.

     Fireheart Tiger by Aliette de Bodard (Tordotcom)
     - In my TBR and looking forward to it. I've liked de Bodard's previous 
novellas a lot.

     The Past Is Red by Catherynne M. Valente (Tordotcom)
     - Tried twice but failed to continue after a few pages. I just don't 
think Valente is my type of author - I've tried a bunch of her books, both for 
children and adults, and they're well-written but something about them 
depresses me extremely. The world-building (on floating rafts of garbage) 
looked good.

Haven't read, Will look up Tchaikovsky.
     Across the Green Grass Fields by Seanan McGuire (Tordotcom)
     Elder Race by Adrian Tchaikovsky (Tordotcom)

----

Best Series

     The Kingston Cycle by C. L. Polk (Tordotcom)
     - Really enjoyed this series. Great characters and interesting 
setting. And even a successful popular Commune-style uprising in Book 3, 
although I think Polk underestimated th difficulties a bit.

     Merchant Princes by Charles Stross (Macmillan)
     - Read a few of these years ago and enjoyed what I read.

Haven't read:
     Terra Ignota by Ada Palmer (Tor Books)
     Wayward Children by Seanan McGuire (Tordotcom)
     The World of the White Rat by T. Kingfisher (Ursula Vernon) (Argyll Productions)
     The Green Bone Saga by Fonda Lee (Orbit)

Best Dramatic Presentation, Long Form
    - I saw _Dune_ and was impressed that at least they didn't massively 
screw it up like the last effort. The technical aspects and setting up of 
the world were very good and the acting OK. Didn't see the others.

Lodestar Award for Best Young Adult Book (not a Hugo)
     - I read _The Last Graduate_ and while it was well put together and 
the world-building and plot twists were good (as in the first in this 
series), I again found it too violent and a bit depressing. Haven't read 
the others.

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca

What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich

From domelouann at gmail.com  Thu Apr 14 20:26:40 2022
From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 14:26:40 -0500
Subject: [LMB] So the Hugo Awards have been announced - my take on the
 nominations
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204141233330.4879@pannier.local>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204141233330.4879@pannier.local>
Message-ID: <CAGqU+divhHONONwQVgDApuPr6AQt9Z=DRtN3jepvfGCTjrGHfw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 12:07 PM alayne--- via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

> You can see the full list at
>
> https://www.tor.com/2022/04/07/announcing-the-2022-hugo-award-finalists/
>
>      Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir (Ballantine / Del Rey)
>      - the alien was really well done and again we had a hero who solved
> what should have been an insoluble problem. Writing style is serviceable.
>

I loved "The Martian" and to me this was even better. ("Artemis" was sadly
not at the same level.) It posed some questions about human personality and
character that I'd love to see discussed in more depth. I can't be more
specific without spoiling the plot.

From howard at brazee.net  Thu Apr 14 20:45:23 2022
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:45:23 -0600
Subject: [LMB] So the Hugo Awards have been announced - my take on the
 nominations
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204141233330.4879@pannier.local>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204141233330.4879@pannier.local>
Message-ID: <8ECB757F-E20B-4B95-BC7B-4CB507648845@brazee.net>



> On Apr 14, 2022, at 11:07 AM, alayne--- via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> In Best Novel, I can highly recommend
> 
>    A Desolation Called Peace by Arkady Martine (Tor)
>    - brilliant, as good as the first in the series and taking it in unexpected but totally reasonable directions, loved the characters and how they fit into their societies

I keep hearing good things about it, but I didn?t care for the first novel in the series.  

From tlambs1138 at charter.net  Thu Apr 14 21:30:07 2022
From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:30:07 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Hugos
Message-ID: <060601d8503e$6f1d3850$4d57a8f0$@charter.net>

I liked what I read of Project Hail Mary (need to sit down and read it all
the way through), but when the guy abandoned his science class, I decided it
was better I didn't have my husband read it--even in his current condition
there would be a book-shaped hole in the wall from the force of his throw.
Mike has strong feelings about being a teacher. 


Jean Lamb
tlambs1138 at charter.net
https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20




From wawenri at msn.com  Thu Apr 14 21:42:45 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 20:42:45 +0000
Subject: [LMB] So the Hugo Awards have been announced - my take on the
 nominations
In-Reply-To: <8ECB757F-E20B-4B95-BC7B-4CB507648845@brazee.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204141233330.4879@pannier.local>
 <8ECB757F-E20B-4B95-BC7B-4CB507648845@brazee.net>
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB4847791AD866DE408F129D25B4EF9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

I very much liked Hail Mary. The style is similar to The Martian. The alien thinks as well as a human but decidedly not like a human.

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.

________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Howard Brazee <howard at brazee.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2022 1:45:23 PM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [LMB] So the Hugo Awards have been announced - my take on the nominations



> On Apr 14, 2022, at 11:07 AM, alayne--- via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
>
> In Best Novel, I can highly recommend
>
>    A Desolation Called Peace by Arkady Martine (Tor)
>    - brilliant, as good as the first in the series and taking it in unexpected but totally reasonable directions, loved the characters and how they fit into their societies

I keep hearing good things about it, but I didn?t care for the first novel in the series.
--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cc0fa1864374248f96efa08da1e4f5bcd%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637855623439279033%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=0NugwyfYFtRwVyogMbG0GY7Xtib%2BN6%2FceUyIL6%2BWLvc%3D&amp;reserved=0

From wawenri at msn.com  Thu Apr 14 21:44:57 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 20:44:57 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: Hugos
In-Reply-To: <060601d8503e$6f1d3850$4d57a8f0$@charter.net>
References: <060601d8503e$6f1d3850$4d57a8f0$@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB4847793B818DAB035904473EB4EF9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

Read the rest. You might be surprised.

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.

________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Jean Lamb <tlambs1138 at charter.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2022 2:30:07 PM
To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: [LMB] OT: Hugos

I liked what I read of Project Hail Mary (need to sit down and read it all
the way through), but when the guy abandoned his science class, I decided it
was better I didn't have my husband read it--even in his current condition
there would be a book-shaped hole in the wall from the force of his throw.
Mike has strong feelings about being a teacher.


Jean Lamb
tlambs1138 at charter.net
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FJean-Lamb%2Fe%2FB00IR0YO20&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7C368701523c4142cd3c3208da1e5596e0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637855650201272613%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=8c5E8Byb26uFe%2BR5Kl8F5F3A7eRecreWQA7TSsFA7zU%3D&amp;reserved=0



--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7C368701523c4142cd3c3208da1e5596e0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637855650201272613%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=AdXkqwRF8Vih0yVTXU5gUKJIs4uoj10H71upNcy4BsQ%3D&amp;reserved=0

From ravenclaweric at gmail.com  Thu Apr 14 23:18:25 2022
From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:18:25 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Reminded of a song
Message-ID: <CAO7QBz84KKxWgRJ=SSb-dxX79MLvf_oyr+hbSiKLtS1mc-Mhnw@mail.gmail.com>

Reading about Vormuir and his girls, I kept flashing on the song about a
whole bunch of clones of Miles, "Five Hundred Miles. "

Anyone else remember it?

From sylviamcivers at gmail.com  Thu Apr 14 23:53:21 2022
From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 18:53:21 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: a wizard alone nme edition
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844F5F62B03F0F71C87057ECEEF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1931.1649889916.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844F5F62B03F0F71C87057ECEEF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAD6Rr-w=2uT+6EVXi3LJ=xOqLQGn0aRXSryi2+QMbcBtjCRGtg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 9:21 PM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> From: Pat Mathews <mathews55 at msn.com>
>
> Okay. My verdict: Diane Duane tried. She really did.
>

This is Gwynne's post, responding to Pat's post.
I never saw Pat's post.

It seems that gmail  has suddenly shunted a bunch of emails to Trash. Very
odd.

From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Fri Apr 15 02:18:27 2022
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 21:18:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] Seeing all posts was Re:  OT: a wizard alone nme edition
In-Reply-To: <CAD6Rr-w=2uT+6EVXi3LJ=xOqLQGn0aRXSryi2+QMbcBtjCRGtg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1931.1649889916.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844F5F62B03F0F71C87057ECEEF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAD6Rr-w=2uT+6EVXi3LJ=xOqLQGn0aRXSryi2+QMbcBtjCRGtg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204142106210.15821@pannier.local>

On Thu, 14 Apr 2022, Sylvia McIvers wrote:
> It seems that gmail  has suddenly shunted a bunch of emails to Trash. Very
> odd.

You might want to set up a filter in Gmail so that Bujold email never goes 
to spam.

>From your Gmail main page, click the wheel (two in from the C on the 
right) which is Settings.

Then choose See all settings.

Then choose the Filters and Blocked Addresses tab.

Then choose "Create a new filter" (if you already have filters, you have 
to scroll to the bottom of them).

Then in the "To" line, put lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
Alternatively you could put [LMB] in the Subject line.

Click on "Create filter" (NOT SEARCH).

You definitely want to click on "Never send to Spam"
Under "Categorize as", choose "Primary". 
Beyond that, you may wish to apply a label like "Bujold List" (you can 
create whichever labels you want there too).

Once you're happy with that, click on "Create filter" and that will make 
sure none of your Bujold mail goes to spam.

Alayne

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca

What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich

From domelouann at gmail.com  Fri Apr 15 03:42:15 2022
From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 21:42:15 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Hugos
In-Reply-To: <CO3PR18MB4847793B818DAB035904473EB4EF9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
References: <060601d8503e$6f1d3850$4d57a8f0$@charter.net>
 <CO3PR18MB4847793B818DAB035904473EB4EF9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAGqU+dj1gKmTC5ownJ41j+ZXPF02rR1QGeN8p2baN4s7up2O_A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 3:45 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com> wrote:

> Read the rest. You might be surprised.
>
> William A Wenrich
>

William is completely right about this. The character changes profoundly,
more than once.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 15 03:48:08 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 02:48:08 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Vormuir's girls
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1957.1649965536.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1957.1649965536.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844492E3D91E4565B53C4DFCEEE9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com>





Do the laws of Barrayar at this time protect conceptions in uterine replicators?

Gwynne: I think the laws are struggling to keep up; nobody thought of this
situation when they sorted out the basics.
There's two levels of laws they'd be looking at: First the basic ones to apply to
everyone, giving protections to the baby and establishing its status.
Then there's the High Vor rules; which would relate to inheritance, position in
family, and legitimacy. That will keep the CoC busy for ages.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 15 03:51:23 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 02:51:23 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Vormuir's girls
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1957.1649965536.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1957.1649965536.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844E0FE0194AB84D990198ACEEE9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com>

I wonder what they could have done if Vormuir had got the sperm he used
from, say, Jackson's Whole or Beta Colony.  If they weren't genetically his
daughters, could they require him to provide dowries for them?

Gwynne: Miles mentions that:
"...Oh, and we can't get him for slavery, either, because they all really are actually his daughters..."


From cjbotteron at gmail.com  Fri Apr 15 04:15:00 2022
From: cjbotteron at gmail.com (Carol Botteron)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 23:15:00 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Reminded of a song
Message-ID: <CACqhCVdFvWY_W5ojb5KC101wSt3-NffDdFaFVMt-UwejwpaEDw@mail.gmail.com>

From: Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com>
> Reading about Vormuir and his girls, I kept flashing on the song
> about a whole bunch of clones of Miles, "Five Hundred Miles. "
> Anyone else remember it?

You betcha.  It's "Aral's Nightmare" by Lee Gold.
http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Filk/misc4.html (scroll down)
I think my first post to this list was about attending a con in Boston
(Arisia?) at which there was a concert of Bujold filk where LMB herself
autographed books.  Lee Gold sang this song.  If you read the lyrics you'll
see the point at which LMB cracked up laughing and had to stop signing for
a minute.

From ravenclaweric at gmail.com  Fri Apr 15 04:42:55 2022
From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 22:42:55 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Vormuir's girls
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844E0FE0194AB84D990198ACEEE9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1957.1649965536.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E0FE0194AB84D990198ACEEE9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAO7QBz-KN2Ez=2+Wz_20TTwya8NRMeovqFjFG1xdrPn+-Nqutg@mail.gmail.com>

Wouldn't they be technically orphans, or foundlings?  I don't think
Barrayaran law would see taking in bereft children as slavery.  And as long
as he's not forcing them to work for no money, or charging people who
wanted to adopt them, he could make a case that it wasn't slavery.

On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 9:51 PM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> From: Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com>
>
> I wonder what they could have done if Vormuir had got the sperm he used
> from, say, Jackson's Whole or Beta Colony.  If they weren't genetically his
> daughters, could they require him to provide dowries for them?
>
> Gwynne: Miles mentions that:
> "...Oh, and we can't get him for slavery, either, because they all really
> are actually his daughters..."
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From lmb at matija.com  Fri Apr 15 08:33:34 2022
From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 09:33:34 +0200
Subject: [LMB] OT: Hugos
In-Reply-To: <CAGqU+dj1gKmTC5ownJ41j+ZXPF02rR1QGeN8p2baN4s7up2O_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <060601d8503e$6f1d3850$4d57a8f0$@charter.net>
 <CO3PR18MB4847793B818DAB035904473EB4EF9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAGqU+dj1gKmTC5ownJ41j+ZXPF02rR1QGeN8p2baN4s7up2O_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <876ef781-969b-6117-023f-fe98ffea572f@matija.com>


On 15/04/2022 04:42, Louann Miller wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 3:45 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com> wrote:
>
>> Read the rest. You might be surprised.
>>
>> William A Wenrich
>>
> William is completely right about this. The character changes profoundly,
> more than once.

Yes, and they are changes with good grounding in what we know about the 
character and his environment.

For once, I also agree with William.


From lmb at matija.com  Fri Apr 15 08:46:25 2022
From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 09:46:25 +0200
Subject: [LMB] Vormuir's girls
In-Reply-To: <CAO7QBz-KN2Ez=2+Wz_20TTwya8NRMeovqFjFG1xdrPn+-Nqutg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1957.1649965536.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E0FE0194AB84D990198ACEEE9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAO7QBz-KN2Ez=2+Wz_20TTwya8NRMeovqFjFG1xdrPn+-Nqutg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <59ba599e-56f4-a8d4-29eb-2f472bc2df86@matija.com>

On 15/04/2022 05:42, Eric Oppen wrote:
> Wouldn't they be technically orphans, or foundlings?  I don't think
> Barrayaran law would see taking in bereft children as slavery.  And as long
> as he's not forcing them to work for no money, or charging people who
> wanted to adopt them, he could make a case that it wasn't slavery.

Well, if the girls were not related to him and he's making the older 
girls take care of the younger children without pay, that's slavery. And 
if he paid them market prices, that's expensive.

He didn't want to get nailed on slavery, and he didn't want it to get 
(more) expensive, so...

>
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 9:51 PM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> From: Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com>
>>
>> I wonder what they could have done if Vormuir had got the sperm he used
>> from, say, Jackson's Whole or Beta Colony.  If they weren't genetically his
>> daughters, could they require him to provide dowries for them?
>>
>> Gwynne: Miles mentions that:
>> "...Oh, and we can't get him for slavery, either, because they all really
>> are actually his daughters..."
>>
>> --
>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
>> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>>

From proto at panix.com  Fri Apr 15 10:32:04 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 05:32:04 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Vormuir's girls
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844492E3D91E4565B53C4DFCEEE9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1957.1649965536.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844492E3D91E4565B53C4DFCEEE9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <81387810-BC1E-4F28-A8B8-893ED6505B37@panix.com>



> On Apr 14, 2022, at 10:48 PM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> From: WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com>
> 
> Do the laws of Barrayar at this time protect conceptions in uterine replicators?
> 
> Gwynne: I think the laws are struggling to keep up; nobody thought of this
> situation when they sorted out the basics.
<SNIP>

Belike, they didn?t think to make the use artificial insemination with discarded 
eggs illegal. Off course, that takes a perverted mind to think of.

Now are these girls Vor? As acknowledged children of a Count they should qualify
as High Vor. A problem for the previous children if the laws of inheritance stipulate
a minimum percentage for each legit child.

I wonder if the situation for some Vor women to not marry the man they are living with
to keep Vor status. Particularly widows ala Alys. In our world some widows use that 
method to retain pensions which stop if the woman remarries.

?
Sig intentionally left blank.


From proto at panix.com  Fri Apr 15 10:36:55 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 05:36:55 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Vormuir's girls
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844E0FE0194AB84D990198ACEEE9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1957.1649965536.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E0FE0194AB84D990198ACEEE9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <C5037F52-1B5A-41F5-9566-43CB1065F466@panix.com>



> On Apr 14, 2022, at 10:51 PM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Gwynne: Miles mentions that:
> ??Oh, and we can't get him for slavery, either, because they all really are actually his daughters..."

> From: Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com>
> 
> I wonder what they could have done if Vormuir had got the sperm he used
> from, say, Jackson's Whole or Beta Colony.  If they weren't genetically his
> daughters, could they require him to provide dowries for them?

Well then he would not get to increase his get or genetic impact on the population,
and as mentioned above he would be liable for enslavement.
> --

?
It?s better to be approximately correct than completely wrong.


From huntkc at gmail.com  Fri Apr 15 12:08:06 2022
From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 07:08:06 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Seeing all posts was Re: OT: a wizard alone nme edition
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204142106210.15821@pannier.local>
References: <mailman.1931.1649889916.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844F5F62B03F0F71C87057ECEEF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAD6Rr-w=2uT+6EVXi3LJ=xOqLQGn0aRXSryi2+QMbcBtjCRGtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204142106210.15821@pannier.local>
Message-ID: <CABsO85n6HNfdfk_J2w0ZjGQqq+UnNvkMW-xGBwS29sDHf_2n0Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 9:18 PM alayne--- via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022, Sylvia McIvers wrote:
> > It seems that gmail  has suddenly shunted a bunch of emails to Trash.
> Very
> > odd.
>
> You might want to set up a filter in Gmail so that Bujold email never goes
> to spam.
>
> From your Gmail main page, click the wheel (two in from the C on the
> right) which is Settings.
>
> Then choose See all settings.
>
> Then choose the Filters and Blocked Addresses tab.
>
> Then choose "Create a new filter" (if you already have filters, you have
> to scroll to the bottom of them).
>
> Then in the "To" line, put lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> Alternatively you could put [LMB] in the Subject line.
>
> Click on "Create filter" (NOT SEARCH).
>
> You definitely want to click on "Never send to Spam"
> Under "Categorize as", choose "Primary".
> Beyond that, you may wish to apply a label like "Bujold List" (you can
> create whichever labels you want there too).
>
> Once you're happy with that, click on "Create filter" and that will make
> sure none of your Bujold mail goes to spam.
>

An elaboration: I did exactly that, then more recently I added a filter
that throws certain ones of this list's messages into the deleted folder.

Since some of the ones in this thread were of the undesirable sort, I had
the same effect.
(I checked Deleted, saw that this was the case, and decided that was a good
thing, not a bad thing.)

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 15 12:20:09 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 11:20:09 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Vormuir's girls
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1650020401.5163.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1650020401.5163.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844C8E3099D29FA1F2CAEB5CEEE9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com>

Wouldn't they be technically orphans, or foundlings?  I don't think
Barrayaran law would see taking in bereft children as slavery.  And as long
as he's not forcing them to work for no money, or charging people who
wanted to adopt them, he could make a case that it wasn't slavery.

Gwynne: "...Oh, and we can't get him for slavery, either, because they all really
are actually his daughters..." So whatever the laws are on Barrayar, Miles is
pretty clear about that. They aren't foundlings, because they haven't yet been
abandoned (emotionally they have, but not physically.) And they're not orphans,
since they all have two living parents. Technically. And Barrayaran law works on
the spirit, not the letter, of the law. Whatever it is in this case - although I think
the problem is that the law doesn't exist at all.

It's going to be fun getting the laws just right, and trying to think of all the
OTHER ways someone could try to get around the laws.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 15 14:19:17 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 13:19:17 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 6
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1650020401.5163.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1650020401.5163.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384417FF2836F02AA5EA57CDCEEE9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



Ekaterin searches out the laboratory, to see if Mark wants more compost.
Kareen is so excited for the chance to show off all her hard work; she's made
a huge difference to the room, and to Enrique. Ekaterin copes with meeting a
butterbug, and Enrique. She actually understands a bit more of what he's doing
than anyone else around him. She even has some good suggestions: engineer
them to eat strangle vines, and they'd sell like bandits on the South Continent.
And package up the droppings to sell as fertilizer. Ekaterin is quite at home with
the business side as well as the creative side of this kind of production. And
for Kareen she's a breath of fresh air; a human who can communicate. Locked
up there with Enrique and all those bugs, it must be a bit dull. And limited:

"Practical," echoed Kareen. A week of Enrique had given her a new appreciation for the quality.

There's a mention of the manure war, with some explanation. And people
still turn up at the Imperial Cavalry barracks with buckets, to get some
fertilizer for their roses (r/l note here: Rose gardeners are THE most fanatical
of all, I can well believe they turn up regularly. It probably gets quite tense
when some people go home with empty buckets.)

Amazingly it's Enrique who gets the good idea of asking Ekaterin to be
their native guide. Neither Kareen nor Mark knew about District agronomy
officers. Ekaterin and Kareen agree on their views of Tsipis (that man
deserves a medal, really, he's held the District together for decades.)

Mark turns up with more lab gear, and talks Ekaterin into trying bug
butter. She's polite about it, and has some more useful suggestions.
(Ekaterin is awesome - she's solved Miles's problem with Vormuir, and
now in a few minutes she's given the lab team three or four good
ideas.)

Ekaterin wants to go to the District to collect rocks for the garden.
Mark wants to take Kareen to the District to look for lab sites. Kareen
proposes a picnic for all of them, to meet Tsipis and do whatever they
need to do in the District.

Kareen is still struggling with her issues, so having a chaperone is a
good idea - for her. Mark isn't so ecstatic. Kareen organises a date and
time, and decides to get to Vorkosigan House early enough to
assemble Enrique.

Miles turns up, he'd heard that Ekaterin was around and had been
trying to track her down. She has to go, so Miles sees her out and
then rushes back - how dare they feed her some bug vomit. (Miles
isn't ever going to be their best customer.)

Miles isn't pleased with their plans to visit the District, he'd planned
to take her on her first trip there. And there's only four seats in
the lightflyer, so Miles can't go. He's not happy.

Mark explains to Kareen that Miles is courting Ekaterin in secret.
Not secret from everyone else, just from her. They can't figure out
why; Miles isn't shy about sexuality (they'd both met Quinn. She
must have made a real impression.)

Mark has met a few of Miles's girlfriends: The most appalling bunch of bloodthirsty amazons you ever saw. God, they were frightening."
Mind you, getting Miles killed might have had something to do with
that. Then Mark wonders if Miles picked them, or they picked him.
He's not a great seducer, he just can't say no. And this time he's the
one doing the choosing, and he's had no practice. (This is only partly
correct, but still... looking at his past, he's never really had to work all
that hard.)  Mark is going to find it entertaining.

Enrique is worried that they've offended Miles - it has penetrated to him
that they depend on Miles's goodwill. And he's got a great idea to bring
Miles onto their side. It's a surprise. (I still think that, knowing Enrique, and
knowing the minefield that is Barrayaran society, Mark should have
asked more.)

Kareen's good idea: Ma Kosti. Another genius, in her own field, but
luckily not as limited as Enrique.

Part 2 tomorrow



From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 15 14:36:37 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 13:36:37 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 6 Pt 1 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1650020401.5163.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1650020401.5163.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38445213068CB9D206FE4198CEEE9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



Ekaterin is awesome - she solved Miles's problem with Vormuir, and now
she's fired off three good suggestions for the bugs. She can also understand
Enrique, and has just the sort of technical AND practical knowledge that
they need.

Mark and Kareen have some interesting speculation about Miles and women:
maybe he just can't say no, so this is the first time he's had to try. Not really
true; Miles agonised about it all when he was a kid, and had a lot of refusals
from Barrayaran girls. Then that nasty Betan teen used him as a novelty act.
But the fact that ALL of the scary women Mark is talking about are basically
tall and dark does suggest that Miles had some selection process: Mark has
already commented to himself that Miles likes them tall, dark and elegant.
And smart, and strong. (Well, Mark likes them smart and strong too. Is this
part of Cordelia's influence?)

Poor Miles, he had a whole trip to the District planned, and now it's all
spoiled. He'll keep plotting. But the word about his odd courtship is spreading
far and wide - usually he was more careful about secrecy for his missions.

Enrique has a strong view of backward, backwoods Barrayar. But so far
he's mostly met non-standard males, and strong, smart women. Not what
he was expecting at all. Not that he's really put it together yet.

From pouncer at aol.com  Fri Apr 15 17:46:11 2022
From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 11:46:11 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5
References: <0a363755-4f66-25cf-4a1f-b7b0d8f4798a.ref@aol.com>
Message-ID: <0a363755-4f66-25cf-4a1f-b7b0d8f4798a@aol.com>

Me:
 >>The interesting postulate ...is that Barrayaran maidens are
 >>superficial and fixated on appearance.  One does wonder...

Beatrice Otter:
 > I don't see how that follows? Miles has spent the vast
 > majority of his adult life outside of Barrayaran space.

Inside different heads lie different assumptions.  Ekaterin
assume women DO judge on appearance, especially Miles's, as
evidenced by, she thinks, the lack of a following flock of
maidens around him; while at the same time she apparently wonders
why men flock around HER at the Vorthys household. She doesn't
recognize or attach importance to her own appearance.

It's an interesting perspective from a women with a great sense of
aesthetics.


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


From a_neff at bellsouth.net  Fri Apr 15 17:52:18 2022
From: a_neff at bellsouth.net (Ann Neff)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:52:18 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5
In-Reply-To: <0a363755-4f66-25cf-4a1f-b7b0d8f4798a@aol.com>
References: <0a363755-4f66-25cf-4a1f-b7b0d8f4798a.ref@aol.com>
 <0a363755-4f66-25cf-4a1f-b7b0d8f4798a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002901d850e9$2c46a920$84d3fb60$@bellsouth.net>

I suspect that Tien was a negging sort of man.  Maybe not with the intention
of manipulating, but he'd always be placing the blame on her for any
shortcomings of his --including in bed.

-----Original Message-----
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> On Behalf Of
Pouncer via Lois-Bujold
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2022 12:46 PM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold.
<lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Cc: Pouncer <pouncer at aol.com>
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5

Me:
 >>The interesting postulate ...is that Barrayaran maidens are
>>superficial and fixated on appearance.  One does wonder...

Beatrice Otter:
 > I don't see how that follows? Miles has spent the vast  > majority of his
adult life outside of Barrayaran space.

Inside different heads lie different assumptions.  Ekaterin assume women DO
judge on appearance, especially Miles's, as evidenced by, she thinks, the
lack of a following flock of maidens around him; while at the same time she
apparently wonders why men flock around HER at the Vorthys household. She
doesn't recognize or attach importance to her own appearance.

It's an interesting perspective from a women with a great sense of
aesthetics.



From pouncer at aol.com  Fri Apr 15 18:21:56 2022
From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:21:56 -0500
Subject: [LMB] FOUR! The stunning conclusion to the Vorvolk interstitial
 story.
References: <740c0217-5589-18f7-4433-0870e1916222.ref@aol.com>
Message-ID: <740c0217-5589-18f7-4433-0870e1916222@aol.com>

Three pages.

Miles goes pale and lies back trembling after telling of
Dagoola, in particular after telling -- reliving -- the
fall of Sergeant Beatrice.

"Combat fatigue", Illyan diagnoses.

I note that Sergeant Beatrice, while made known to Ekaterin
during the "shopping trip" on Komarr (and after the slide
into the muddy ravine) was not included in the list of
"this and that" old girlfriends Miles discloses later.
Not quite a girlfriend.  And certainly not one of the success
stories who emerge, after being blessed by Miles's love,
with astonishingly increased position and status.

Illyan promises to deal with Vorvolk, and guarantees, the
Auditor and his shadow-advisors will not intrude further on
Lt Vorkosigan's recovery.

Miles apologizes that his financial irregularities appear disloyal, and 
promises to "be more intelligent" going forward. Considering
his already sky-high measures on record, this is a lofty promise.
Illyan gives Miles a look. And Illyan promises to try likewise.

Anyhow, Cordelia arrives just then.  "Hello Simon. Goodbye Simon".
So the whole 'Illyan' thing is right out.

Miles self-analyzes the attractions he had for Beatrice might relate to 
his love of his "tall aggressive redhead"-ed mother.

"You look like a defrosted corpse, love." Cordelia says. Prophesies.

"That nice Commander Quinn who brought you in," is mentioned. This would 
be an early one of several visits.  Pym, in _ACC_ mentions "That very 
attractive CAPTAIN Quinn you brought home those times." So sometimes 
Quinn drags Miles home and sometimes Miles is able to bring Quinn. They 
did try. At the moment of this conversation, though, Quinn is excluded 
from the military hospital because she's foreign military.

In my head-canon, this exclusion wouldn't last one conversation. 
Mercenaries aren't quite "military" or to the extent that they are, the 
Dendarii aren't quite "foreign".

Cordelia is in aggressive redheaded MOTHER MATCH-MAKING mode.  "You can 
be at the long lake 3 hours after you delude that doctor into releasing 
you... I've invited Commander Quinn along.... We will take turns, 
feeding and spoiling you."

And the biggest foreshadow of the whole interval.  Miles adventures on 
Earth.  "Ah.  Yes.  I have a great deal to tell you about Earth."  I 
infer the whole tale of MARK is impending.

Anyhow.  There appears to be room for another few days worth of 
adventure in the ImpMed building, a conversation or two directly with 
Vorvolk, and a romantic and or comically awkward tale between 
dirt-sucking Barrayarans and Quinn, queen of space.  It's a fascinating 
and fertile bit of canon, of which only the "Auditor" bit has been fully 
expanded.

-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


From vanlook19 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 15 18:47:50 2022
From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:47:50 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Seeing all posts was Re: OT: a wizard alone nme edition
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204142106210.15821@pannier.local>
References: <mailman.1931.1649889916.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844F5F62B03F0F71C87057ECEEF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAD6Rr-w=2uT+6EVXi3LJ=xOqLQGn0aRXSryi2+QMbcBtjCRGtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204142106210.15821@pannier.local>
Message-ID: <CAD5sqnDUyJp6iAa3mtiR4r4W0FK8CNGfgpgfN2Ha=x-v5g-bZw@mail.gmail.com>

Gmail randomly and occasionally puts Tony Z's messages into Spam, no matter
what my filters say.

BJ


On Thu, 14 Apr 2022, Sylvia McIvers wrote:
> > It seems that gmail  has suddenly shunted a bunch of emails to Trash.
> Very
> > odd.
>

From sylviamcivers at gmail.com  Fri Apr 15 19:12:35 2022
From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 14:12:35 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Seeing all posts was Re: OT: a wizard alone nme edition
In-Reply-To: <CABsO85n6HNfdfk_J2w0ZjGQqq+UnNvkMW-xGBwS29sDHf_2n0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1931.1649889916.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844F5F62B03F0F71C87057ECEEF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAD6Rr-w=2uT+6EVXi3LJ=xOqLQGn0aRXSryi2+QMbcBtjCRGtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204142106210.15821@pannier.local>
 <CABsO85n6HNfdfk_J2w0ZjGQqq+UnNvkMW-xGBwS29sDHf_2n0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD6Rr-wx+k=vGcEbjTCCrkmsvCST+e85WMcctqLS2YKm6+zZ7A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 7:08 AM Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> > Once you're happy with that, click on "Create filter" and that will make
> > sure none of your Bujold mail goes to spam.
> >
>
> An elaboration: I did exactly that, then more recently I added a filter
> that throws certain ones of this list's messages into the deleted folder.
>

Yes, I think that's what happened - one post was shunted to trash, and all
replies followed along.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 16 12:35:31 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 11:35:31 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 5
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1650106801.18670.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1650106801.18670.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384401CD52A699ACF71FB1DACEF19@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: "Ann Neff" <a_neff at bellsouth.net>

I suspect that Tien was a negging sort of man.  Maybe not with the intention
of manipulating, but he'd always be placing the blame on her for any
shortcomings of his --including in bed.

Gwynne: When they married, Tien had finished his military career and was starting
in civilian life. Ekaterin had just started university, which was seen by most of her
family as marking time until marriage. He was more than ten years older, he was
experienced and knew the ways of the world. She was seen as naive and
inexperienced: that was their dynamic. And ten years later it hadn't changed: several
times Tien tells her she's naive, and knows nothing about how the world really
works. She's been married for ten years, she's lived all over the place, she's raising
a child, she manages the household budget and makes the money stretch, she wrote
his job applications. But Tien still puts her in the 'naive and sheltered' box, and makes
her at least partly believe it.

Tien also gaslighted her relentlessly, and deliberately cut her away from outside
relationships. He accused her of cheating with any male - and then female - who
came close, so that she avoided people. She dressed in baggy, unattractive clothes.
And that went on for ten years. No compliments, no way she could take pleasure or
pride in how she looked. She was trained for ten years to avoid thinking about her
appearance at all. She's now at the point where she doesn't consider that she
could be attractive.

So it really doesn't occur to her that she's a very attractive woman. She sees herself
as a blank, as a middle-aged widow, with no identity at the moment beyond mother
and widow. And, soon, student. She never thought about being a sexually-active
woman until that moment with Miles's uniforms, when she was hit by a wave of
 maleness, and she responded. She's still dealing with that.

And then there's her attraction for Miles, that she doesn't really recognise because
she's never felt that for anyone before.

From litalex at gmail.com  Sat Apr 16 16:50:38 2022
From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 11:50:38 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: the current book market
Message-ID: <4A0378CC-7F6C-4CD7-B3B8-C38DBEC66A3A@gmail.com>

Hello,

Just came across this rather interesting New York Times article. Since we?re all book lovers here, and just recently talked about Amazon and its Kindle, thought you guys would be interested.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/15/arts/barnes-noble-bookstores.html?campaign_id=2&emc=edit_th_20220416&instance_id=58695&nl=todaysheadlines&regi_id=21001949&segment_id=89424&user_id=9adeb170c0570a5c27b5f411688e6952

little Alex

From baur at chello.at  Sat Apr 16 17:43:01 2022
From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 18:43:01 +0200
Subject: [LMB] OT: the current book market
In-Reply-To: <4A0378CC-7F6C-4CD7-B3B8-C38DBEC66A3A@gmail.com>
References: <4A0378CC-7F6C-4CD7-B3B8-C38DBEC66A3A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ffd4f8a2-07cd-e731-3e50-0240b58d1d82@chello.at>

paywall .. could you post the text?

servus

markus

Am 16.04.2022 um 17:50 schrieb Alex Kwan:
> Hello,
> 
> Just came across this rather interesting New York Times article. Since we?re all book lovers here, and just recently talked about Amazon and its Kindle, thought you guys would be interested.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/15/arts/barnes-noble-bookstores.html?campaign_id=2&emc=edit_th_20220416&instance_id=58695&nl=todaysheadlines&regi_id=21001949&segment_id=89424&user_id=9adeb170c0570a5c27b5f411688e6952
> 
> little Alex

From nlbarber at alumni.emory.edu  Sat Apr 16 20:20:07 2022
From: nlbarber at alumni.emory.edu (Nancy L Barber)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 15:20:07 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: the current book market
In-Reply-To: <ffd4f8a2-07cd-e731-3e50-0240b58d1d82@chello.at>
References: <ffd4f8a2-07cd-e731-3e50-0240b58d1d82@chello.at>
Message-ID: <824BCC2A-692B-4A65-9C86-C85D12D15241@alumni.emory.edu>

Try this link, hopefully it?s unlocked:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/15/arts/barnes-noble-bookstores.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWka3DJDm8fiO0PH5PH8U7XY6d4It001TCWAdVGN7w0WPtow_QZP1BoT0PghKq4r6k_And_r5OvDCRx1ojRXLs8_HjnZDW1eb12yvjmsh_WdWW8WKDAgSB3IBIzo8E1cFGoi3Zfxf3VA6UijIkFqPQrBplwRDcHYTDb_KW7TkUjZ6jVK03U-QI0WOpGWDzMndH667IIcAlaC1-uX2ooqC9nq4saYIVLSf65ex0we8P-gqETDnhrK-qqD54yQ4vVktZ6oNK_F0sE7rTEuZX8RZ1xfDU&smid=url-share

> On Apr 16, 2022, at 12:43 PM, Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?paywall .. could you post the text?
> 
>> Am 16.04.2022 um 17:50 schrieb Alex Kwan:
>> Hello,
>> Just came across this rather interesting New York Times article. Since we?re all book lovers here, and just recently talked about Amazon and its Kindle, thought you guys would be interested.

From fishman at panix.com  Sat Apr 16 20:36:09 2022
From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:36:09 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: the current book market
In-Reply-To: <824BCC2A-692B-4A65-9C86-C85D12D15241@alumni.emory.edu>
References: <ffd4f8a2-07cd-e731-3e50-0240b58d1d82@chello.at>
 <824BCC2A-692B-4A65-9C86-C85D12D15241@alumni.emory.edu>
Message-ID: <em47b6cfb0-a835-4fb6-b775-a41907307097@desktop-ckcgfo5>

They closed the Barnes & Noble of my youth. ;-( I grew up in New York 
City and went to High School only a few blocks from there. The Barnes & 
Noble at Fifth Avenue and 18th Street (then the only Barnes & Noble 
store) was the text book capitol of the world. If it existed, they had 
it. Unfortunately, they seemed to have closed it in 2014.

Harvey

------ Original Message ------
From: "Nancy L Barber" <nlbarber at alumni.emory.edu>
To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." 
<lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Bcc: fishman at panix.com
Sent: 4/16/2022 3:20:07 PM
Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: the current book market

>Try this link, hopefully it?s unlocked:
>
>https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/15/arts/barnes-noble-bookstores.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWka3DJDm8fiO0PH5PH8U7XY6d4It001TCWAdVGN7w0WPtow_QZP1BoT0PghKq4r6k_And_r5OvDCRx1ojRXLs8_HjnZDW1eb12yvjmsh_WdWW8WKDAgSB3IBIzo8E1cFGoi3Zfxf3VA6UijIkFqPQrBplwRDcHYTDb_KW7TkUjZ6jVK03U-QI0WOpGWDzMndH667IIcAlaC1-uX2ooqC9nq4saYIVLSf65ex0we8P-gqETDnhrK-qqD54yQ4vVktZ6oNK_F0sE7rTEuZX8RZ1xfDU&smid=url-share
>
>>  On Apr 16, 2022, at 12:43 PM, Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>  ?paywall .. could you post the text?
>>
>>>  Am 16.04.2022 um 17:50 schrieb Alex Kwan:
>>>  Hello,
>>>  Just came across this rather interesting New York Times article. Since we?re all book lovers here, and just recently talked about Amazon and its Kindle, thought you guys would be interested.
>--
>Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com
>Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
>http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold



From stratton at oz.net  Sat Apr 16 23:47:53 2022
From: stratton at oz.net (Paul Stratton)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 15:47:53 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: the current book market
In-Reply-To: <824BCC2A-692B-4A65-9C86-C85D12D15241@alumni.emory.edu>
References: <ffd4f8a2-07cd-e731-3e50-0240b58d1d82@chello.at>
 <824BCC2A-692B-4A65-9C86-C85D12D15241@alumni.emory.edu>
Message-ID: <002c01d851e4$030e93f0$092bbbd0$@oz.net>

Meh.

"Despite all this, sales in Barnes & Noble stores were up 3 percent last year over their prepandemic performance in 2019. The growth came the old-fashioned way, said James Daunt, the company?s chief executive: by selling books, which were up 14 percent."

Inflation adjusted means their overall sales are off about 10% over two years ago.  Books broke even.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> On Behalf Of Nancy L Barber
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2022 12:20 PM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: the current book market

Try this link, hopefully it?s unlocked:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/15/arts/barnes-noble-bookstores.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWka3DJDm8fiO0PH5PH8U7XY6d4It001TCWAdVGN7w0WPtow_QZP1BoT0PghKq4r6k_And_r5OvDCRx1ojRXLs8_HjnZDW1eb12yvjmsh_WdWW8WKDAgSB3IBIzo8E1cFGoi3Zfxf3VA6UijIkFqPQrBplwRDcHYTDb_KW7TkUjZ6jVK03U-QI0WOpGWDzMndH667IIcAlaC1-uX2ooqC9nq4saYIVLSf65ex0we8P-gqETDnhrK-qqD54yQ4vVktZ6oNK_F0sE7rTEuZX8RZ1xfDU&smid=url-share

> On Apr 16, 2022, at 12:43 PM, Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?paywall .. could you post the text?
> 
>> Am 16.04.2022 um 17:50 schrieb Alex Kwan:
>> Hello,
>> Just came across this rather interesting New York Times article. Since we?re all book lovers here, and just recently talked about Amazon and its Kindle, thought you guys would be interested.
--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to stratton at oz.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold



From caroline1008 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 17 01:17:19 2022
From: caroline1008 at gmail.com (Caroline Wong)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 20:17:19 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: the current book market
In-Reply-To: <4A0378CC-7F6C-4CD7-B3B8-C38DBEC66A3A@gmail.com>
References: <4A0378CC-7F6C-4CD7-B3B8-C38DBEC66A3A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGxHeV2mmr2iDK4o9XFd_cqq8tTBkKCzdUvNmYbD8cOGtTVJ1A@mail.gmail.com>

I think the pandemic showed us creative ways to connect. We don't need a
physical place to gather.

What if Lois McMaster-Bujold were to hold a zoom meeting and she limited it
to 20 (or whatever is the typical number who comes to a bookstore to meet
an author)?
What if she offered an NFT of a signed card for everyone who buys a book?
She (or an aide) can even type a message above the signature.

I think those events would be extremely popular. You can even get a group
theme going such as asking everyone to have a mug and snack or play one of
those zoom ice breakers.

If it's done right, it should be the equivalent of a publicity tour with a
lot less traveling for all.

Caroline

On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 11:50 AM Alex Kwan <litalex at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Just came across this rather interesting New York Times article. Since
> we?re all book lovers here, and just recently talked about Amazon and its
> Kindle, thought you guys would be interested.
>
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/15/arts/barnes-noble-bookstores.html?campaign_id=2&emc=edit_th_20220416&instance_id=58695&nl=todaysheadlines&regi_id=21001949&segment_id=89424&user_id=9adeb170c0570a5c27b5f411688e6952
>
> little Alex
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to caroline1008 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From matt.msg at gmail.com  Sun Apr 17 02:28:42 2022
From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 21:28:42 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: the current book market
In-Reply-To: <CAGxHeV2mmr2iDK4o9XFd_cqq8tTBkKCzdUvNmYbD8cOGtTVJ1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A0378CC-7F6C-4CD7-B3B8-C38DBEC66A3A@gmail.com>
 <CAGxHeV2mmr2iDK4o9XFd_cqq8tTBkKCzdUvNmYbD8cOGtTVJ1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAjYNUrqcBbqm2GvBfoG4zNCJVUO5vkb=xWzR3ZkpoggTu4FvA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 8:18 PM Caroline Wong <caroline1008 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> What if she offered an NFT of a signed card for everyone who buys a book?
>

I'd stop buying her books, that's what.

She's become the sole reason I purchase books from Amazon.  If she started
drinking the FlavorAid on NFTs, I'd just write off her novels.  There are
enough great authors who sells ebooks on user-friendly platforms without
DRM to tide me over.

Matt G.

From matt.msg at gmail.com  Sun Apr 17 02:30:22 2022
From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 21:30:22 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Seeing all posts was Re: OT: a wizard alone nme edition
In-Reply-To: <CAD6Rr-wx+k=vGcEbjTCCrkmsvCST+e85WMcctqLS2YKm6+zZ7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1931.1649889916.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844F5F62B03F0F71C87057ECEEF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAD6Rr-w=2uT+6EVXi3LJ=xOqLQGn0aRXSryi2+QMbcBtjCRGtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204142106210.15821@pannier.local>
 <CABsO85n6HNfdfk_J2w0ZjGQqq+UnNvkMW-xGBwS29sDHf_2n0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD6Rr-wx+k=vGcEbjTCCrkmsvCST+e85WMcctqLS2YKm6+zZ7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAjYNUoo_FJhBJau5fGd1Dqp6fwzyCSs0oeW2j1TgGdUUVjO0w@mail.gmail.com>

I suspect it's because the replies quoted the objectionable post.  Shame we
can't mark all posts that way.

Matt "it's an imperfect universe" G.

From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Sun Apr 17 03:21:08 2022
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:21:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] OT: the current book market
In-Reply-To: <CAGxHeV2mmr2iDK4o9XFd_cqq8tTBkKCzdUvNmYbD8cOGtTVJ1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A0378CC-7F6C-4CD7-B3B8-C38DBEC66A3A@gmail.com>
 <CAGxHeV2mmr2iDK4o9XFd_cqq8tTBkKCzdUvNmYbD8cOGtTVJ1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204162208050.19960@pannier.local>

Book tours are exhausting and time-consuming for authors and I don't blame 
them for looking for alternatives.

In terms of fans getting books signed and talking to the author, a Zoom 
call to talk to Lois plus an arrangement to order Lois-signed books from 
Uncle Hugo's or Dreamhaven in Minneapolis seems quite do-able and much 
more environmental and a lot less work.

There's also Margaret Atwood's LongPen but I'm not sure how workable it 
actually is.

I honestly don't see any value in an NFT.

The one thing that book tours do achieve is "localizing" an author for 
local media, esp radio/TV -- "so and so is in town to speak to fans or at 
the Writers' Festival tonight and we'll be interviewing them for our 
drive-home show". The reporters wouldn't interview the writer if there 
wasn't that link of actually being in the town. So the tour does provide 
free publicity if you have the type of book that media outlets would be 
interested in talking about.

For SF/F fans, conventions are more than just signings, and still provide 
a way of connecting with, meeting with, and learning about authors that 
can't really be replaced by Zoom.

Alayne

On Sat, 16 Apr 2022, Caroline Wong wrote:
> I think the pandemic showed us creative ways to connect. We don't need a
> physical place to gather.
>
> What if Lois McMaster-Bujold were to hold a zoom meeting and she limited it
> to 20 (or whatever is the typical number who comes to a bookstore to meet
> an author)?
> What if she offered an NFT of a signed card for everyone who buys a book?
> She (or an aide) can even type a message above the signature.
>
> I think those events would be extremely popular. You can even get a group
> theme going such as asking everyone to have a mug and snack or play one of
> those zoom ice breakers.
>
> If it's done right, it should be the equivalent of a publicity tour with a
> lot less traveling for all.
>
> Caroline
>
> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 11:50 AM Alex Kwan <litalex at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Just came across this rather interesting New York Times article. Since
>> we?re all book lovers here, and just recently talked about Amazon and its
>> Kindle, thought you guys would be interested.
>>
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/15/arts/barnes-noble-bookstores.html?campaign_id=2&emc=edit_th_20220416&instance_id=58695&nl=todaysheadlines&regi_id=21001949&segment_id=89424&user_id=9adeb170c0570a5c27b5f411688e6952
>>
>> little Alex
>> --
>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to caroline1008 at gmail.com
>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
>> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>>
> -- 
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca

What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich

From thefabmadamem at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 17 08:00:56 2022
From: thefabmadamem at yahoo.com (M. Haller Yamada)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 07:00:56 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] Belated birthday wishes for April 15
References: <406924173.526080.1650178856775.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <406924173.526080.1650178856775@mail.yahoo.com>

Frank Kempe, Frank Kempe, a shower of apologies would be a very poor substitute for birthday wishes!?

The Birthday Tixie even googled to see if there was a special shower good enough for the occasion, and quite liked the look of "shower of shenanigans" -- the recent quote is fraught, but so was "shower of gold". So, we will endeavor to have a happy shower of shenanigans, full of silliness.?

Today, if you are free, you will go along with Ivan and Mark, setting up an elaborate but kindly prank on Miles which involves Ivan's three favorite bakeries (and plenty of samples of cream pie!), one of Mark's butter bug facilities, visits to the Koudelka sisters (yes, all four of them!) for advice and conspiracy, ImpSec (to give them a heads up), and an extensive inspection (and booby-trapping) of one of Miles' most luxurious groundcars. Of course, they let you take it for a spin, partly for your own enjoyment, but mostly so that you can test and see that none of the elaborate shenanigans are dislodged by a wild ride. You are also given a Vorkosigan uniform, so you can play the part of Miles' new driver (for the joke, of course).?

Oh, how Ivan and Mark laughed, and Miles laughed as well, as soon as he caught his breath again. After an impromptu feast (as defined by Ma Kosti, so actually quite elaborate), you are trundled home with a nice Ma Kosti dessert for your freezer to be enjoyed anytime you need a laugh.?

Hoping your day was a good one, that your whole birthday week -- indeed, you whole birthday month -- is full of happy surprises and unexpected joy!



From thefabmadamem at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 17 08:03:06 2022
From: thefabmadamem at yahoo.com (M. Haller Yamada)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 07:03:06 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixie for April 13
In-Reply-To: <634e8b29-20da-9767-1f13-f782e795ee65@aol.com>
References: <634e8b29-20da-9767-1f13-f782e795ee65.ref@aol.com>
 <634e8b29-20da-9767-1f13-f782e795ee65@aol.com>
Message-ID: <571845899.529413.1650178986278@mail.yahoo.com>

Yum! One of the cyber clones of the burger made it my way, and was absolutely delicious! I've been yearning for a good burger recently, so this was very timely! Thanks, Pouncer!?






On Thursday, April 14, 2022, 04:43:57 AM GMT+9, Pouncer via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: 





M. Haller Yamada arranges a virtual star-viewing party for the
birthdays today.? I appreciate it.? An extra and actual burger will be
grilled in honor of the list collectively.


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

-- 
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to thefabmadamem at yahoo.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold


From proto at panix.com  Sun Apr 17 10:32:09 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 05:32:09 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: the current book market
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204162208050.19960@pannier.local>
References: <4A0378CC-7F6C-4CD7-B3B8-C38DBEC66A3A@gmail.com>
 <CAGxHeV2mmr2iDK4o9XFd_cqq8tTBkKCzdUvNmYbD8cOGtTVJ1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204162208050.19960@pannier.local>
Message-ID: <656C7D67-4E0F-4B71-B8E4-D2358FEC6B02@panix.com>



> On Apr 16, 2022, at 10:21 PM, alayne--- via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> I honestly don?t see any value in an NFT.

They have value only if you can find a buyer as far as if can tell.

Of course that is the basis of money, but of course more people will
accept dollars in payment than NFTs.


? 
?That which doesn?t make us stronger kills us.?


From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 17 11:01:19 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 10:01:19 +0000
Subject: [LMB] The future gets closer
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1982.1650158905.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1982.1650158905.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844656F438E446E245B744ECEF09@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



Last week I watched 'Tomorrow Tonight', a show that looks at possible
issues in the future; for Aussies, it's on the ABC on Wednesdays at 9 pm,
and the episode will still be on iview https://iview.abc.net.au/video/LE2001V003S00

The show was about 'Ectogenesis' - what we'd know as Uterine Replicators.
It was fascinating; they raised some important points.

One issue they looked at was abortion: with this technology you could divide
the rights of the mother and the embryo. The law could be that any woman
can choose not to carry a baby to term. Under the new laws, the embryo would
be moved to a replicator, and brought to term. The mother can choose to keep
the baby, or it will go for adoption. So the mother has rights over her own body,
and the baby also has rights.

They wandered through a few other issues; the change to womens' lives without
the ticking biological clock, the way athletes and dancers could continue with their
careers, the freedom for women who wouldn't have to worry about food and
medications during pregnancy. It was interesting to hear all those issues being
treated. And they showed how the technology is getting closer.

It was fun watching, as I kept muttering, "Yes, that's happening on Barrayar!"
[https://cdn.iview.abc.net.au/thumbs/i/le/LE2001V003S00_624264276e7b1.jpg]<https://iview.abc.net.au/video/LE2001V003S00>
Tomorrow Tonight: Series 2 Episode 3 Ectogenesis<https://iview.abc.net.au/video/LE2001V003S00>
What if childbirth was a thing of the past? Annabel, Charlie and Adam are joined by Jane Caro and Zoe Norton Lodge to ponder a future where babies could grow outside the human body.
iview.abc.net.au


From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 17 12:24:35 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:24:35 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 6 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1982.1650158905.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1982.1650158905.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384438930F0913480D1F6EEFCEF09@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>


Miles goes to see Rene. Vorbretten House is beautiful, and modern. It has
plenty of windows, invisible force shields for protection, and probably much
better plumbing than Vorkosigan House.

Poor Rene isn't doing well - at first he thinks that Miles has been sent with a
message from Gregor, telling him that it's all over for him. He's been dumped
by most of the Counts (who don't want to commit in this situation.)

According to Rene there's a dozen sure votes for each side, the rest haven't
committed yet. It's a really horrible time for him, and absolutely not his
fault. They discuss the legalities; Count's choice trumps blood, unless
the Count hasn't made a choice (this is important for the Vorrutyer claim,
too, as we see later.)

There's no proof that the Count knew, or didn't know. So history is no
help. We also get some charming memories of the Occupation. Ick. But
not everyone agreed with Piotr's tactics. Xav didn't (I wish we knew more
about Xav.)

Having two Countships open at once is unusual. As lifespans have
increased, the replacement rate has slowed (and that also makes
the CoC less open to new ideas, as the average age goes past Old
Geezer to Is He Still Breathing?)

Miles, five-eighths Betan, isn't the best person to argue for acceptance
of some Nexus DNA in a Count. Or maybe he is; he's done amazing
things for the Empire, and some of them are now public knowledge.

They speculate about Donna's plans for the Vorrutyer claim; the best
guess is that she's cloning Pierre on Beta.

Neither Miles nor Rene were - ahem - close with Lady Donna. Miles is
still feeling inferior to Ivan, and telling himself not to whine about the
past. And worried that a smart and beautiful Vor woman wouldn't be
attracted to him. Will the Auditorship be enough to attract her? (Yes,
Miles is a total idiot about his private life, on a number of levels.)

Mark, the clone, has been accepted by the family, and is Miles's
official heir. Can Donna do the same with a clone of Pierre? Would
a legal wrangle about that make things worse for Mark? It's all so
bound up together, every step could be dangerous to someone else.

There was a Countess who was declared as legally male, to inherit.
But that was during a war, when things tend to become more
ruthlessly pragmatic.

They speculate on whether Donna would choose to be the surrogate
for Pierre's clone. Slightly ick, but it would make her claim stronger -
and they couldn't take the baby before he was born. Whatever she's
doing she has to hurry; there's three months to bring a claim, based on
travel times in the old days. After that it's too late for her.

Miles points out that it's not good to leave a District without a Count
for too long - it lets them realise that they don't need a Count at all
(probably slightly sarcastic, but there's some truth there.)

Martya and Olivia have been with Tatya - good on the Koudelkas
for being loyal. Olivia and Tatya are schoolfriends. Martya is
providing the extra push to go out and have some fun. She's
also dragging them all out to the symphony tomorrow night.
Martya can be a bit sharp sometimes, but here we see how strong
and supportive she is, too.

....and then Tatya opens an exciting-looking invitation to find that
it's an UNinvitation. She's been getting a lot of spite from all the
jealous maidens, and their mothers, who missed out on catching
Rene.

Marty's ready to start shedding blood. Olivia isn't happy either.
Miles reassures Rene that the wedding invitations haven't been
sent out yet, he hasn't been dropped from that. Then Miles has
a bright idea and invites Rene and Tatya to his dinner-party.
Olivia explains that they're all going to meet Miles's chosen lady.
Miles tries to deny it and falls over his own tongue. Ekaterin
must be just about the only  person in the city who doesn't
know about this now. (What happened to secrecy on missions?
If he's running his courtship as a small war, why isn't he
following the rules?)

Martya blinked at him with manufactured innocence. "Kareen had it from Mark. I had it from Ivan. Mama had it from Gregor. And Da had it from Pym. If you're trying to keep a secret, Miles, why are you going around telling everyone?"

.... This also gives a lovely view of the whole family working
as a united group, and keeping in constant touch.

On the bright side, he's given Rene and Tatya something to
laugh about.

Aral and Cordelia are due home soon after the party, this is
Miles's last chance to have the place to himself before the
full circus takes over. He loves his parents, but he's rather
enjoyed having the place to himself for a while. And introducing
Ekaterin to his parents... he needs to plan that.

Miles gives Martya a lift home. Miles glares at Pym; he values
his ability to collect useful gossip, but  doesn't like it that he's
sharing. (But this was the Koudelkas. It's family. And Miles is
telling everyone anyway.) He pumps Martya for information on
the trip home. Rene is in torment; the Cetagandans killed his
father at the Hegen Hub. Now he finds that he's part Ceta - that's
hard to take. And things like music, which he loves, probably
come from the Ceta side. He's not fighting hard, or at all, yet.

Tatya was bullied at school for being beautiful. She adores
Rene, and loves being a Countess - and it was a kick at the mean
girls who tormented her. Now, of course, they're sticking the
knife in even harder. They were going to start a baby - that's
what set all this off. Now they've stopped planning a baby.

Olivia is one of the very few who's stuck by them.

Miles says how unfair it is. Martya gives him a short lesson on
female rights on Barrayar. This is another of those twisted-
together things; Miles can't campaign for inheritance rights
for woman, because it strengthens his Salic claim on the
camp-stool. He can't take that risk, it would cause so many
problems for him and for political stability. Martya can see
his point.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 17 12:31:55 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:31:55 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 6 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1982.1650158905.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1982.1650158905.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844E85AEF8332FAB69F29E9CEF09@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



So, poor Rene is stuck and miserable, and not fighting back.
And I like the Koudelkas even more - they're loyal and caring,
and smart, and strong. I like Martya better, too - she is a bit
sharp sometimes, but she'll fight for the people she cares
about, and her sharp energy is sometimes needed.

Rene is stuck in some self-loathing right now; he hates the
Cetas, they killed his father, and now he's one of them. More
or less. It's a horrible situation. The nasty reactions around them
don't help. (There's going to be some serious crawling done
when this is all over.)

The dinner party is growing in size, and fame. Miles, oh Miles,
WHY are you telling everyone?

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 17 12:45:49 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:45:49 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Xav's wife
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1982.1650158905.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1982.1650158905.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38446FFB00A719D299999709CEF09@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



Do we have any textev about Xav's wife?

She's Betan, was some sort of trade diplomat, and she fell for
Xav (like Cordelia and Aral - these Barrayarans do have a certain
aura.) They married, had three children (were the children
born on Beta? Xav spent most of the Occupation there. Did his
wife's Betan origins help him get through the Cetagandan
blockade?)

Ok, I'm playing with the timeline:

Xav was born at the end of the 27th century.

Piotr was born in 2693, so Xav must have been a bit older. Aral
was born in 2727, when Piotr was 34. There was an older
brother, so Piotr must have married soon after 30, perhaps.
His wife would have to have been about twenty? So born
in roughly 2707. Roughly.

Xav and his wife would have to have been born around 2680?
2685?

I'll call it 2680.

We don't know when Xav died. It was after Yuri's civil war.
And a bit after that, since I think Xav and his wife raised the
baby Padma, at least for a while.

If Xav made it to eighty, he would have died around 2760,
which is probably right. After Aral made Captain, before
Gregor was born.

Betans live for roughly 120 years. So Xav's wife could have
lived to 2800. That's after Brothers in Arms. Just before
Mirror Dance. She's definitely not on Barrayar at that time.

Is she still alive then? Did she go back to Beta when her
husband died, after her children and most of her grandchildren
were killed?

What happened to Xav's wife?








From howard at brazee.net  Sun Apr 17 13:47:43 2022
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 06:47:43 -0600
Subject: [LMB] OT: the current book market
In-Reply-To: <656C7D67-4E0F-4B71-B8E4-D2358FEC6B02@panix.com>
References: <4A0378CC-7F6C-4CD7-B3B8-C38DBEC66A3A@gmail.com>
 <CAGxHeV2mmr2iDK4o9XFd_cqq8tTBkKCzdUvNmYbD8cOGtTVJ1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204162208050.19960@pannier.local>
 <656C7D67-4E0F-4B71-B8E4-D2358FEC6B02@panix.com>
Message-ID: <47945019-7B3C-41FF-9D4C-B023059CA2FA@brazee.net>



> On Apr 17, 2022, at 3:32 AM, WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com> wrote:
> 
>> I honestly don?t see any value in an NFT.
> 
> They have value only if you can find a buyer as far as if can tell.
> 
> Of course that is the basis of money, but of course more people will
> accept dollars in payment than NFTs.

People found extraordinary value in tulips at one time.

From huntkc at gmail.com  Sun Apr 17 14:17:37 2022
From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:17:37 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Xav's wife
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38446FFB00A719D299999709CEF09@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1982.1650158905.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38446FFB00A719D299999709CEF09@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CABsO85nZsP7sK2BATC25Xb1K-dnVDmOou5gSrS=d4Zg0vhCWZg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 7:46 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Do we have any textev about Xav's wife?
>
> She's Betan, was some sort of trade diplomat, and she fell for
> Xav (like Cordelia and Aral - these Barrayarans do have a certain
> aura.) They married, had three children (were the children
> born on Beta? Xav spent most of the Occupation there. Did his
> wife's Betan origins help him get through the Cetagandan
> blockade?)
>

We have one other useful tidbit about her, from the same passage in Shards
of Honor.
After Yuri's Civil War, thus when Aral was in his teenage years, Aral spent
some school vacations at Xav and her home, and thus knew her at least
somewhat.

We don't know how much past Aral's teens she lived, but I like to picture
her as helping him find his way out of the mess he got himself into in his
early 20s.
Not by psychologizing him per se, but by being a nice old lady who knew
what it was like to live in a bizarre, honor-based society surrounded by
insane people.


Ok, I'm playing with the timeline:
>
> Xav was born at the end of the 27th century.
>
> Piotr was born in 2693, so Xav must have been a bit older. Aral
> was born in 2727, when Piotr was 34. There was an older
> brother, so Piotr must have married soon after 30, perhaps.
> His wife would have to have been about twenty? So born
> in roughly 2707. Roughly.
>

As an aside:
I'm not really convinced of the century there. I'm more on the side of
28th.
(see https://vorkosigan.fandom.com/wiki/Galactic_Timeline for my own
efforts along those lines)

From proto at panix.com  Sun Apr 17 14:44:45 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:44:45 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: the current book market
In-Reply-To: <47945019-7B3C-41FF-9D4C-B023059CA2FA@brazee.net>
References: <4A0378CC-7F6C-4CD7-B3B8-C38DBEC66A3A@gmail.com>
 <CAGxHeV2mmr2iDK4o9XFd_cqq8tTBkKCzdUvNmYbD8cOGtTVJ1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204162208050.19960@pannier.local>
 <656C7D67-4E0F-4B71-B8E4-D2358FEC6B02@panix.com>
 <47945019-7B3C-41FF-9D4C-B023059CA2FA@brazee.net>
Message-ID: <6CD758BB-6CE2-43A2-9DF8-217B40A13237@panix.com>



> On Apr 17, 2022, at 8:47 AM, Howard Brazee <howard at brazee.net> wrote:
> 
> People found extraordinary value in tulips at one time.

Ah yes, the Dutch tulip boom and bust, the first capitalist crash.

?
Sig intentionally left blank.


From kawyle at att.net  Sun Apr 17 15:37:13 2022
From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:37:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] The future gets closer
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844656F438E446E245B744ECEF09@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1982.1650158905.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844656F438E446E245B744ECEF09@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <1352671730.432416.1650206233848@mail.yahoo.com>

 Some of these issues arise (along with others) in a near-future novel I'm trying to wrestle into shape for publication. (It has structural problems, and every solution seems to give rise to a new problem.)
Karen A. Wyle
    On Sunday, April 17, 2022, 06:01:35 AM EDT, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:  
 
 

Last week I watched 'Tomorrow Tonight', a show that looks at possible
issues in the future; for Aussies, it's on the ABC on Wednesdays at 9 pm,
and the episode will still be on iview https://iview.abc.net.au/video/LE2001V003S00

The show was about 'Ectogenesis' - what we'd know as Uterine Replicators.
It was fascinating; they raised some important points.

One issue they looked at was abortion: with this technology you could divide
the rights of the mother and the embryo. The law could be that any woman
can choose not to carry a baby to term. Under the new laws, the embryo would
be moved to a replicator, and brought to term. The mother can choose to keep
the baby, or it will go for adoption. So the mother has rights over her own body,
and the baby also has rights.

They wandered through a few other issues; the change to womens' lives without
the ticking biological clock, the way athletes and dancers could continue with their
careers, the freedom for women who wouldn't have to worry about food and
medications during pregnancy. It was interesting to hear all those issues being
treated. And they showed how the technology is getting closer.

It was fun watching, as I kept muttering, "Yes, that's happening on Barrayar!"
[https://cdn.iview.abc.net.au/thumbs/i/le/LE2001V003S00_624264276e7b1.jpg]<https://iview.abc.net.au/video/LE2001V003S00>
Tomorrow Tonight: Series 2 Episode 3 Ectogenesis<https://iview.abc.net.au/video/LE2001V003S00>
What if childbirth was a thing of the past? Annabel, Charlie and Adam are joined by Jane Caro and Zoe Norton Lodge to ponder a future where babies could grow outside the human body.
iview.abc.net.au

-- 
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
  

From caroline1008 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 17 16:52:18 2022
From: caroline1008 at gmail.com (Caroline Wong)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:52:18 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: the current book market
In-Reply-To: <47945019-7B3C-41FF-9D4C-B023059CA2FA@brazee.net>
References: <4A0378CC-7F6C-4CD7-B3B8-C38DBEC66A3A@gmail.com>
 <CAGxHeV2mmr2iDK4o9XFd_cqq8tTBkKCzdUvNmYbD8cOGtTVJ1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204162208050.19960@pannier.local>
 <656C7D67-4E0F-4B71-B8E4-D2358FEC6B02@panix.com>
 <47945019-7B3C-41FF-9D4C-B023059CA2FA@brazee.net>
Message-ID: <CAGxHeV1RjG+Yd==iYmgZ8O9N8qPkF3AW9vy5UdBt+qujFEVxYQ@mail.gmail.com>

The NFT of an author's signature (with or without personal note) is only of
value to the fan.

We don't think of our signed editions as investments but as nice things to
have. It's a reminder that we met and interacted with our favourite author.
Getting an NFT makes it more than an e-card. Each time the author puts pen
to tablet to sign it, it becomes a unique thing just for you.
You can display it on a screen (photo frame, tablet etc) and it takes up no
room in your physical space.

What do people do with their signed books? Keep it in the bookshelf and
just feel chuffed that it is there.

From domelouann at gmail.com  Sun Apr 17 19:14:42 2022
From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:14:42 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: the current book market
In-Reply-To: <CAGxHeV1RjG+Yd==iYmgZ8O9N8qPkF3AW9vy5UdBt+qujFEVxYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A0378CC-7F6C-4CD7-B3B8-C38DBEC66A3A@gmail.com>
 <CAGxHeV2mmr2iDK4o9XFd_cqq8tTBkKCzdUvNmYbD8cOGtTVJ1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204162208050.19960@pannier.local>
 <656C7D67-4E0F-4B71-B8E4-D2358FEC6B02@panix.com>
 <47945019-7B3C-41FF-9D4C-B023059CA2FA@brazee.net>
 <CAGxHeV1RjG+Yd==iYmgZ8O9N8qPkF3AW9vy5UdBt+qujFEVxYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGqU+diUieQkvykhMYBufWZDO=YszzLYvAsEEie_Ys+cjR6Wbg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 10:53 AM Caroline Wong <caroline1008 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> We don't think of our signed editions as investments but as nice things to
> have. It's a reminder that we met and interacted with our favourite author.
>

As a fan, I have collections and I know many other people who also have
collections.  I always feel bad for the people who expect to profit from
their beloved and long-standing collections, or for that matter recoup the
money they spent new. In my experience, they don't.

From howard at brazee.net  Sun Apr 17 19:33:14 2022
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:33:14 -0600
Subject: [LMB] OT: the current book market
In-Reply-To: <CAGqU+diUieQkvykhMYBufWZDO=YszzLYvAsEEie_Ys+cjR6Wbg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A0378CC-7F6C-4CD7-B3B8-C38DBEC66A3A@gmail.com>
 <CAGxHeV2mmr2iDK4o9XFd_cqq8tTBkKCzdUvNmYbD8cOGtTVJ1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204162208050.19960@pannier.local>
 <656C7D67-4E0F-4B71-B8E4-D2358FEC6B02@panix.com>
 <47945019-7B3C-41FF-9D4C-B023059CA2FA@brazee.net>
 <CAGxHeV1RjG+Yd==iYmgZ8O9N8qPkF3AW9vy5UdBt+qujFEVxYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGqU+diUieQkvykhMYBufWZDO=YszzLYvAsEEie_Ys+cjR6Wbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CDFABE93-DE84-43C7-87F4-C02F27FD00DC@brazee.net>



> On Apr 17, 2022, at 12:14 PM, Louann Miller <domelouann at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> We don't think of our signed editions as investments but as nice things to
>> have. It's a reminder that we met and interacted with our favourite author.
>> 
> 
> As a fan, I have collections and I know many other people who also have
> collections. I always feel bad for the people who expect to profit from
> their beloved and long-standing collections, or for that matter recoup the
> money they spent new. In my experience, they don?t.

And don?t expect your heirs to care about your collection (nor any heirlooms).

From matt.msg at gmail.com  Sun Apr 17 23:57:33 2022
From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 18:57:33 -0400
Subject: [LMB] The future gets closer
In-Reply-To: <1352671730.432416.1650206233848@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1982.1650158905.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844656F438E446E245B744ECEF09@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <1352671730.432416.1650206233848@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAAjYNUq6T-ahMKTHBBa6Tfr8Mkd0djAVDHfE8Jc1ARQ_EyTM1Q@mail.gmail.com>

Greg Egan, the famous Aussie SF writer, postulated a further complication:
infants gestated in uterine replicators are never exposed to the hormonal
and immune factors that result in homosexuality, and a technology that was
at first eschewed by conservatives becomes widely accepted for this reason.

Matt "like deaf culture and cochlear implants, only different" G.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 18 12:14:44 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 11:14:44 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Xav's wife
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1650279601.18577.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1650279601.18577.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844ADB1D6623114993CB733CEF39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 7:46 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Do we have any textev about Xav's wife?

We have one other useful tidbit about her, from the same passage in Shards
of Honor.
After Yuri's Civil War, thus when Aral was in his teenage years, Aral spent
some school vacations at Xav and her home, and thus knew her at least
somewhat.
We don't know how much past Aral's teens she lived, but I like to picture
her as helping him find his way out of the mess he got himself into in his
early 20s.
Not by psychologizing him per se, but by being a nice old lady who knew
what it was like to live in a bizarre, honor-based society surrounded by
insane people.

Gwynne: So... Aral's mother was killed when he was young, and his grandmother
became the only surviving female relative in his family, a mother substitute.
And his grandmother was Betan, his mum was half-Betan. And then Aral
meets a Betan woman... he was really primed to fall for her, wasn't he!

From rgmolpus at flash.net  Mon Apr 18 14:28:06 2022
From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:28:06 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] Xav's wife
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844ADB1D6623114993CB733CEF39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1650279601.18577.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844ADB1D6623114993CB733CEF39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <1583743749.582444.1650288486985@mail.yahoo.com>

 There;s also a mention of Aral first getting bad advice on how to deal with the aftermath of his duels and his wife's death (probably form Ges), and how he did get some good advice that helped 'pull him out of that sewer'..
A close relative from Beta would be a certain source of that advice...

    On Monday, April 18, 2022, 06:15:01 AM CDT, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:  
 
 From: Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 7:46 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Do we have any textev about Xav's wife?

We have one other useful tidbit about her, from the same passage in Shards
of Honor.
After Yuri's Civil War, thus when Aral was in his teenage years, Aral spent
some school vacations at Xav and her home, and thus knew her at least
somewhat.
We don't know how much past Aral's teens she lived, but I like to picture
her as helping him find his way out of the mess he got himself into in his
early 20s.
Not by psychologizing him per se, but by being a nice old lady who knew
what it was like to live in a bizarre, honor-based society surrounded by
insane people.

Gwynne: So... Aral's mother was killed when he was young, and his grandmother
became the only surviving female relative in his family, a mother substitute.
And his grandmother was Betan, his mum was half-Betan. And then Aral
meets a Betan woman... he was really primed to fall for her, wasn't he!
-- 
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
  

From mathews55 at msn.com  Mon Apr 18 16:02:30 2022
From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 15:02:30 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 6 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB384438930F0913480D1F6EEFCEF09@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1982.1650158905.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384438930F0913480D1F6EEFCEF09@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <MN2PR04MB68472AEF882867137D31FB6AB4F39@MN2PR04MB6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Gwynne said " "Kareen had it from Mark. I had it from Ivan. Mama had it from Gregor. And Da had it from Pym"

Hah! Fond memories of an old song beginning "I got it from Alice....." in which the "it" was a lot more viral than simple gossip!
________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2022 5:24 AM
To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 6 Pt 2


Miles goes to see Rene. Vorbretten House is beautiful, and modern. It has
plenty of windows, invisible force shields for protection, and probably much
better plumbing than Vorkosigan House.

Poor Rene isn't doing well - at first he thinks that Miles has been sent with a
message from Gregor, telling him that it's all over for him. He's been dumped
by most of the Counts (who don't want to commit in this situation.)

According to Rene there's a dozen sure votes for each side, the rest haven't
committed yet. It's a really horrible time for him, and absolutely not his
fault. They discuss the legalities; Count's choice trumps blood, unless
the Count hasn't made a choice (this is important for the Vorrutyer claim,
too, as we see later.)

There's no proof that the Count knew, or didn't know. So history is no
help. We also get some charming memories of the Occupation. Ick. But
not everyone agreed with Piotr's tactics. Xav didn't (I wish we knew more
about Xav.)

Having two Countships open at once is unusual. As lifespans have
increased, the replacement rate has slowed (and that also makes
the CoC less open to new ideas, as the average age goes past Old
Geezer to Is He Still Breathing?)

Miles, five-eighths Betan, isn't the best person to argue for acceptance
of some Nexus DNA in a Count. Or maybe he is; he's done amazing
things for the Empire, and some of them are now public knowledge.

They speculate about Donna's plans for the Vorrutyer claim; the best
guess is that she's cloning Pierre on Beta.

Neither Miles nor Rene were - ahem - close with Lady Donna. Miles is
still feeling inferior to Ivan, and telling himself not to whine about the
past. And worried that a smart and beautiful Vor woman wouldn't be
attracted to him. Will the Auditorship be enough to attract her? (Yes,
Miles is a total idiot about his private life, on a number of levels.)

Mark, the clone, has been accepted by the family, and is Miles's
official heir. Can Donna do the same with a clone of Pierre? Would
a legal wrangle about that make things worse for Mark? It's all so
bound up together, every step could be dangerous to someone else.

There was a Countess who was declared as legally male, to inherit.
But that was during a war, when things tend to become more
ruthlessly pragmatic.

They speculate on whether Donna would choose to be the surrogate
for Pierre's clone. Slightly ick, but it would make her claim stronger -
and they couldn't take the baby before he was born. Whatever she's
doing she has to hurry; there's three months to bring a claim, based on
travel times in the old days. After that it's too late for her.

Miles points out that it's not good to leave a District without a Count
for too long - it lets them realise that they don't need a Count at all
(probably slightly sarcastic, but there's some truth there.)

Martya and Olivia have been with Tatya - good on the Koudelkas
for being loyal. Olivia and Tatya are schoolfriends. Martya is
providing the extra push to go out and have some fun. She's
also dragging them all out to the symphony tomorrow night.
Martya can be a bit sharp sometimes, but here we see how strong
and supportive she is, too.

....and then Tatya opens an exciting-looking invitation to find that
it's an UNinvitation. She's been getting a lot of spite from all the
jealous maidens, and their mothers, who missed out on catching
Rene.

Marty's ready to start shedding blood. Olivia isn't happy either.
Miles reassures Rene that the wedding invitations haven't been
sent out yet, he hasn't been dropped from that. Then Miles has
a bright idea and invites Rene and Tatya to his dinner-party.
Olivia explains that they're all going to meet Miles's chosen lady.
Miles tries to deny it and falls over his own tongue. Ekaterin
must be just about the only  person in the city who doesn't
know about this now. (What happened to secrecy on missions?
If he's running his courtship as a small war, why isn't he
following the rules?)

Martya blinked at him with manufactured innocence. "Kareen had it from Mark. I had it from Ivan. Mama had it from Gregor. And Da had it from Pym. If you're trying to keep a secret, Miles, why are you going around telling everyone?"

.... This also gives a lovely view of the whole family working
as a united group, and keeping in constant touch.

On the bright side, he's given Rene and Tatya something to
laugh about.

Aral and Cordelia are due home soon after the party, this is
Miles's last chance to have the place to himself before the
full circus takes over. He loves his parents, but he's rather
enjoyed having the place to himself for a while. And introducing
Ekaterin to his parents... he needs to plan that.

Miles gives Martya a lift home. Miles glares at Pym; he values
his ability to collect useful gossip, but  doesn't like it that he's
sharing. (But this was the Koudelkas. It's family. And Miles is
telling everyone anyway.) He pumps Martya for information on
the trip home. Rene is in torment; the Cetagandans killed his
father at the Hegen Hub. Now he finds that he's part Ceta - that's
hard to take. And things like music, which he loves, probably
come from the Ceta side. He's not fighting hard, or at all, yet.

Tatya was bullied at school for being beautiful. She adores
Rene, and loves being a Countess - and it was a kick at the mean
girls who tormented her. Now, of course, they're sticking the
knife in even harder. They were going to start a baby - that's
what set all this off. Now they've stopped planning a baby.

Olivia is one of the very few who's stuck by them.

Miles says how unfair it is. Martya gives him a short lesson on
female rights on Barrayar. This is another of those twisted-
together things; Miles can't campaign for inheritance rights
for woman, because it strengthens his Salic claim on the
camp-stool. He can't take that risk, it would cause so many
problems for him and for political stability. Martya can see
his point.
--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold

From sturmvogel66 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 18 17:02:37 2022
From: sturmvogel66 at gmail.com (Jason Long)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 12:02:37 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 6 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <MN2PR04MB68472AEF882867137D31FB6AB4F39@MN2PR04MB6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.1982.1650158905.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384438930F0913480D1F6EEFCEF09@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <MN2PR04MB68472AEF882867137D31FB6AB4F39@MN2PR04MB6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CACfxHZm=RDGdzEO+kRyGiq98KeTyLwdwcVEpFTC85WCRKk1VCg@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, yes, Tom Lehrer!

On Mon, Apr 18, 2022 at 11:02 AM Pat Mathews <mathews55 at msn.com> wrote:

> Gwynne said " "Kareen had it from Mark. I had it from Ivan. Mama had it
> from Gregor. And Da had it from Pym"
>
> Hah! Fond memories of an old song beginning "I got it from Alice....." in
> which the "it" was a lot more viral than simple gossip!
> ________________________________
> From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of
> Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2022 5:24 AM
> To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
> Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 6 Pt 2
>
>
> Miles goes to see Rene. Vorbretten House is beautiful, and modern. It has
> plenty of windows, invisible force shields for protection, and probably
> much
> better plumbing than Vorkosigan House.
>
> Poor Rene isn't doing well - at first he thinks that Miles has been sent
> with a
> message from Gregor, telling him that it's all over for him. He's been
> dumped
> by most of the Counts (who don't want to commit in this situation.)
>
> According to Rene there's a dozen sure votes for each side, the rest
> haven't
> committed yet. It's a really horrible time for him, and absolutely not his
> fault. They discuss the legalities; Count's choice trumps blood, unless
> the Count hasn't made a choice (this is important for the Vorrutyer claim,
> too, as we see later.)
>
> There's no proof that the Count knew, or didn't know. So history is no
> help. We also get some charming memories of the Occupation. Ick. But
> not everyone agreed with Piotr's tactics. Xav didn't (I wish we knew more
> about Xav.)
>
> Having two Countships open at once is unusual. As lifespans have
> increased, the replacement rate has slowed (and that also makes
> the CoC less open to new ideas, as the average age goes past Old
> Geezer to Is He Still Breathing?)
>
> Miles, five-eighths Betan, isn't the best person to argue for acceptance
> of some Nexus DNA in a Count. Or maybe he is; he's done amazing
> things for the Empire, and some of them are now public knowledge.
>
> They speculate about Donna's plans for the Vorrutyer claim; the best
> guess is that she's cloning Pierre on Beta.
>
> Neither Miles nor Rene were - ahem - close with Lady Donna. Miles is
> still feeling inferior to Ivan, and telling himself not to whine about the
> past. And worried that a smart and beautiful Vor woman wouldn't be
> attracted to him. Will the Auditorship be enough to attract her? (Yes,
> Miles is a total idiot about his private life, on a number of levels.)
>
> Mark, the clone, has been accepted by the family, and is Miles's
> official heir. Can Donna do the same with a clone of Pierre? Would
> a legal wrangle about that make things worse for Mark? It's all so
> bound up together, every step could be dangerous to someone else.
>
> There was a Countess who was declared as legally male, to inherit.
> But that was during a war, when things tend to become more
> ruthlessly pragmatic.
>
> They speculate on whether Donna would choose to be the surrogate
> for Pierre's clone. Slightly ick, but it would make her claim stronger -
> and they couldn't take the baby before he was born. Whatever she's
> doing she has to hurry; there's three months to bring a claim, based on
> travel times in the old days. After that it's too late for her.
>
> Miles points out that it's not good to leave a District without a Count
> for too long - it lets them realise that they don't need a Count at all
> (probably slightly sarcastic, but there's some truth there.)
>
> Martya and Olivia have been with Tatya - good on the Koudelkas
> for being loyal. Olivia and Tatya are schoolfriends. Martya is
> providing the extra push to go out and have some fun. She's
> also dragging them all out to the symphony tomorrow night.
> Martya can be a bit sharp sometimes, but here we see how strong
> and supportive she is, too.
>
> ....and then Tatya opens an exciting-looking invitation to find that
> it's an UNinvitation. She's been getting a lot of spite from all the
> jealous maidens, and their mothers, who missed out on catching
> Rene.
>
> Marty's ready to start shedding blood. Olivia isn't happy either.
> Miles reassures Rene that the wedding invitations haven't been
> sent out yet, he hasn't been dropped from that. Then Miles has
> a bright idea and invites Rene and Tatya to his dinner-party.
> Olivia explains that they're all going to meet Miles's chosen lady.
> Miles tries to deny it and falls over his own tongue. Ekaterin
> must be just about the only  person in the city who doesn't
> know about this now. (What happened to secrecy on missions?
> If he's running his courtship as a small war, why isn't he
> following the rules?)
>
> Martya blinked at him with manufactured innocence. "Kareen had it from
> Mark. I had it from Ivan. Mama had it from Gregor. And Da had it from Pym.
> If you're trying to keep a secret, Miles, why are you going around telling
> everyone?"
>
> .... This also gives a lovely view of the whole family working
> as a united group, and keeping in constant touch.
>
> On the bright side, he's given Rene and Tatya something to
> laugh about.
>
> Aral and Cordelia are due home soon after the party, this is
> Miles's last chance to have the place to himself before the
> full circus takes over. He loves his parents, but he's rather
> enjoyed having the place to himself for a while. And introducing
> Ekaterin to his parents... he needs to plan that.
>
> Miles gives Martya a lift home. Miles glares at Pym; he values
> his ability to collect useful gossip, but  doesn't like it that he's
> sharing. (But this was the Koudelkas. It's family. And Miles is
> telling everyone anyway.) He pumps Martya for information on
> the trip home. Rene is in torment; the Cetagandans killed his
> father at the Hegen Hub. Now he finds that he's part Ceta - that's
> hard to take. And things like music, which he loves, probably
> come from the Ceta side. He's not fighting hard, or at all, yet.
>
> Tatya was bullied at school for being beautiful. She adores
> Rene, and loves being a Countess - and it was a kick at the mean
> girls who tormented her. Now, of course, they're sticking the
> knife in even harder. They were going to start a baby - that's
> what set all this off. Now they've stopped planning a baby.
>
> Olivia is one of the very few who's stuck by them.
>
> Miles says how unfair it is. Martya gives him a short lesson on
> female rights on Barrayar. This is another of those twisted-
> together things; Miles can't campaign for inheritance rights
> for woman, because it strengthens his Salic claim on the
> camp-stool. He can't take that risk, it would cause so many
> problems for him and for political stability. Martya can see
> his point.
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to sturmvogel66 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From proto at panix.com  Mon Apr 18 19:43:53 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 14:43:53 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 6 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <MN2PR04MB68472AEF882867137D31FB6AB4F39@MN2PR04MB6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.1982.1650158905.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384438930F0913480D1F6EEFCEF09@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <MN2PR04MB68472AEF882867137D31FB6AB4F39@MN2PR04MB6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <AC9184C6-3340-4C40-8180-98C74F1A978F@panix.com>



> On Apr 18, 2022, at 11:02 AM, Pat Mathews <mathews55 at msn.com> wrote:
> 
> Gwynne said " "Kareen had it from Mark. I had it from Ivan. Mama had it from Gregor. And Da had it from Pym"
> 
> Hah! Fond memories of an old song beginning ?I got it from Alice....." in which the "it" was a lot more viral than simple gossip!


Oh, that gossip was pretty viral, among those of the High Vor and associates.

?
Sig intentionally left blank.


From proto at panix.com  Mon Apr 18 19:45:01 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 14:45:01 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Xav's wife
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844ADB1D6623114993CB733CEF39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1650279601.18577.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844ADB1D6623114993CB733CEF39@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <AF935B9C-73E3-4D23-B707-737BA45B06F2@panix.com>



> On Apr 18, 2022, at 7:14 AM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com <mailto:gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Gwynne: So... Aral's mother was killed when he was young, and his grandmother
> became the only surviving female relative in his family, a mother substitute.
> And his grandmother was Betan, his mum was half-Betan. And then Aral
> meets a Betan woman... he was really primed to fall for her, wasn't he!


A Betan woman soldier at that. 
__ 
What is the difference between unethical and ethical advertising? Unethical advertising uses falsehoods to deceive the public; ethical advertising uses truth to deceive the public.
Vilhjalmur Stefansson (1879 ? 1962)


From sylviamcivers at gmail.com  Mon Apr 18 21:47:41 2022
From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 16:47:41 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Seasons Greetings
Message-ID: <CAD6Rr-yadeaWm6rZAaF=TuRjV1mE8Ldt3KRqjU184zfxRSOtUg@mail.gmail.com>

Happy Holiday to whoever is celebrating this day, this week, this month.

Sylvia

From kawyle at att.net  Mon Apr 18 21:50:50 2022
From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 20:50:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] OT: Seasons Greetings
In-Reply-To: <CAD6Rr-yadeaWm6rZAaF=TuRjV1mE8Ldt3KRqjU184zfxRSOtUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD6Rr-yadeaWm6rZAaF=TuRjV1mE8Ldt3KRqjU184zfxRSOtUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1653228019.735139.1650315050237@mail.yahoo.com>

 Thanks, Sylvia! Happy Pesach/Dyngus Day/Ramaden!
    On Monday, April 18, 2022, 04:48:24 PM EDT, Sylvia McIvers <sylviamcivers at gmail.com> wrote:  
 
 Happy Holiday to whoever is celebrating this day, this week, this month.

Sylvia
-- 
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
  

From saffronrose at me.com  Tue Apr 19 04:33:32 2022
From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 20:33:32 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Seasons Greetings
In-Reply-To: <1653228019.735139.1650315050237@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1653228019.735139.1650315050237@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <30F85895-E7FA-46C8-A940-1FF72A575082@me.com>

On Apr 18, 2022, at 1:51 PM, Karen A. Wyle <kawyle at att.net> wrote:
> 
> ? Thanks, Sylvia! Happy Pesach/Dyngus Day/Ramaden!
>    On Monday, April 18, 2022, 04:48:24 PM EDT, Sylvia McIvers <sylviamcivers at gmail.com> wrote:  
> 
> Happy Holiday to whoever is celebrating this day, this week, this month.

Or, Happy Easter
Ramadan Mubarak
Pesach Shalom

How to address Dyngus, I have no idea!

Walpurgisnacht is nearly a fortnight away, but there?s 
420 on the 20th
National Tea Day (UK) on the 21st
Lyrids meteor shower 21-22nd
Earth Day April 22
World Book Day on the 23rd
Orthodox Easter on the 24th
National Shrimp Scampi Day (US) April 29th

A. Marina Fournier
saffronrose at me.com
Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e
Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA
Sent from iFionnghuala

From thefabmadamem at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 19 07:26:15 2022
From: thefabmadamem at yahoo.com (M. Haller Yamada)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 06:26:15 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] Birthday Tixie for April 19
References: <705906001.725018.1650349575086.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <705906001.725018.1650349575086@mail.yahoo.com>

Today is Helen Fenton's birthday! Many congratulations, and I hope you are enjoying a wonderful autumn day today!?

Your shower is a very special one -- the bridal shower of one of Ivan's old girlfriends! Kou and her daughters take you shopping for a gift -- the List Cyber Kitty has a generous budget for expenses like these, so feel free to pick whatever you like, and pick up a little souvenir for yourself -- after all, it's your birthday! You visit as many of the high-end Vor stores as you could want to see.?

Of course, they also help you choose an outfit as the height of Barrayaran fashion, with shoes that have galactic tech in them to make them the most comfortable you've ever tried! And there are lovely tea breaks to refuel you all for the next burst of shopping.?

In the afternoon, there's the shower. Women of all ages gather to celebrate the not-so-young lady's fifth impending marriage, and it's a casual sort of atmosphere, with the perquisite racy wordy games, silly balloons and Barrayaran specials, like "pin the Vorfemme knife to the ass's tail from three meters away".?

When the party's over, you are bundled up in the return pod with your purchases, your goody-bag (oooh, there's a big bottle of Durona Everlightening Night Creme on the top! Wonder what else they've stuffed in there?), and a big box of leftovers so you won't have to cook tonight.?

May your day be full of warm memories!



From becca7108 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 19 12:36:14 2022
From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 07:36:14 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Seasons Greetings
In-Reply-To: <30F85895-E7FA-46C8-A940-1FF72A575082@me.com>
References: <1653228019.735139.1650315050237@mail.yahoo.com>
 <30F85895-E7FA-46C8-A940-1FF72A575082@me.com>
Message-ID: <CAJH0-vOiNsurhitQgaCQmWrZL+mQ1ATR8O90P6X7a8TR9oG-Eg@mail.gmail.com>

I'd never heard of Dyngus Day before, so thank you for mentioning this
Polish holiday! It's a little bit cold to go about dousing each other with
water hereabouts,  there being snow on the ground, though.

Szcz??liwy Dyngus Day to you all!

On Monday, April 18, 2022, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

> On Apr 18, 2022, at 1:51 PM, Karen A. Wyle <kawyle at att.net> wrote:
> >
> > ? Thanks, Sylvia! Happy Pesach/Dyngus Day/Ramaden!
> >    On Monday, April 18, 2022, 04:48:24 PM EDT, Sylvia McIvers <
> sylviamcivers at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Happy Holiday to whoever is celebrating this day, this week, this month.
>
> Or, Happy Easter
> Ramadan Mubarak
> Pesach Shalom
>
> How to address Dyngus, I have no idea!
>
> Walpurgisnacht is nearly a fortnight away, but there?s
> 420 on the 20th
> National Tea Day (UK) on the 21st
> Lyrids meteor shower 21-22nd
> Earth Day April 22
> World Book Day on the 23rd
> Orthodox Easter on the 24th
> National Shrimp Scampi Day (US) April 29th
>
> A. Marina Fournier
> saffronrose at me.com
> Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e
> Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA
> Sent from iFionnghuala
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to becca7108 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>


-- 
*"...there is no effort without error and shortcoming" - Theodore Roosevelt
*

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 19 12:57:19 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 11:57:19 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2022.1650297777.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2022.1650297777.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844F6960B49175A99ABA28ACEF29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



So, they're off to Vorkosigan District. Mark loves flying Miles's lightflyer,
it's perfectly set up for him. But Miles can't fly it any more, and that hurts.
Mark encourages Ekaterin's admiration of the scenery - it's sweet watching
him try to help Miles's courtship. Enrique is amazed that all Barrayar isn't
concrete. And he expected uniforms - but there's so many different ones
that the effect isn't uniform. Especially with some of the Countly colours.

Mark also had different expectations of Barrayar, but he's come to like
it (I wonder if rank helps there; his reception would be very different if
he was a random prole. His name gives him a certain insulation.)

Ekaterin misses the South Continent and those wide open skies. She went
from that incredibly wide horizon to increasingly smaller spaces, to that
small apartment in a dome on Komarr. At least now she's made it back
onto Barrayar, and has some open air. And freedom.

And now we meet Tsipis at last, waiting for them on the roof of the
Count's Residence. Kareen hugs him - he's obviously an old family friend
to them all. Mark respects his business sense. Ekaterin is grateful for
all the help. Enrique is probably about to wander off the edge of the
roof. But Tsipis has lined up three possible sites for the bug factory, all
of them places abandoned when people stopped scratching for a living
in poor soil, and headed to Sergyar with their Count and Countess (why
is it that everything the Vorkosigans do for the Empire costs their
District so much?)  Tsipis suggests asking Miles to forgo the rent, which
would help with their budget. Mark is trying to feel like a Vorkosigan,
and entitled.

They all have lunch at the Count's Residence; Miles has been sending
instructions to make sure that Ekaterin enjoys her time in the District.
Excellent food (although it would have been good anyway) and th
best wines.

Mark chats with Tsipis when Kareen takes Ekaterin and Enrique to see
the gardens in the courtyard. Tsipis, of course, knows about the
courtship. Miles has apparently been giving constant instructions
about Ekaterin's time in the District.

The conversation between Mark and Tsipis is one of the best parts of
the book. You can see how much they each care for and about Miles, and
how important his courtship is, for several reasons. Mark says,
"...If it were anyone but Miles, it would be hilarious. Actually, it's still hilarious. But it's also . . . hm."
Tsipis blinked and smiled in perfect understanding. "Heart-stopping . . . "

Tsipis remembers Miles as a child, never crying when he broke bones.
But one time some children at a local fair rejected him, cruelly. And the
next day he rode a horse he wasn't supposed to ride, and had a very
serious accident. Or a not-accident. Basically, Tsipis is desperately
worried about what will happen if it all goes horribly wrong. Under all
the mocking, everyone is. Miles needs to marry and have children to
ensure the line, but there's Mark and Ivan if necessary. But they
all care about Miles, and if this fails... they're all worried.

Tsipis says Ekaterin is a quick study, and totally honest - which is
actually his highest praise. And she's attractive, and... he and Mark
both find her reserved (which is understandable). Tsipis also asks
Mark to keep an eye on things - this is a big step, really; Tsipis is
stepping outside his role, and job, but he's so concerned.

Tsipis has also picked up on Mark's relationship with Kareen (I get the
feeling that Tsipis rather enjoys watching the family, like a large soap
opera.) And he tells Mark to treat her well. Yes, Tsipis has a protective
feeling for the extended family.

Neither man can read Ekaterin's mind, or her feelings for Miles.
Mark decides to ask Kareen - it's a girl thing, after all.

Mark adores Kareen. He needs her, he feels civilised by her, he
values her abilities to deal with clients for his business, he loves
everything about her. Poor, twisted, damaged Mark loves
wholeheartedly, and more openly than Miles. But Mark is getting
desperate about the changes in Kareen. (They worry about what
Miles will do if he crashes and burns; perhaps they should worry a
bit about Mark, if he loses Kareen.)

Kareen gets them all moving on the rock-hunt. Tsipis, of course, has
organised a couple of strong young men and a van. And a map.
Ekaterin loves the view from the foothills - good, she's liking the
District. Ekaterin takes the helpers, and Enrique, to look for rocks
and interesting plants. Mark avoids the exertion, and takes a stroll
with Kareen.

Kareen is realising how dependent she is, for everything. And if
her family are supporting her she can't offend their expectations.
Their chat is so sweet, and it's very obvious that they've both worked
with therapists for some time. (Even Mark's therapist loves Kareen, and
wants her to train as a therapist. Everyone really does love Kareen, it's
a scary superpower.) On Beta she felt that she was growing, now she
feels dragged back down again. Mark, bravely, tells her to choose
what's best for herself, not what's best for anyone else. Kareen wants
to be as self-confident as Cordelia. A scary thought.

Kareen and Ekaterin are on a first-name basis, and becoming good
friends. Mark asks her to, basically, be a spy and find out how
Ekaterin feels about Miles. Will she be good for Miles?

Kareen asks if Miles will be good for her. Mark sees it as a good
match for Ekaterin: Count's heir, Auditor, what else could a Vor
want?

Kareen would take Mark rather than Miles any day: Miles takes
you over, with his drive and energy. She remembers him training
her and her sisters in formation marching when Drou was
visiting Cordelia. Interesting. (Is precision-drilling just marching?
Or is there warfare involved?) Kareen says Miles needs a woman who
will stand up to him. (A lot of people who know Miles have said
that. Miles says it himself, several times through the books.)

Ekaterin comes back with her strong young men, plants, and a
soggy Enrique - he fell in the river, of course. ?

They return to the Capital, drop off Ekaterin and Kareen, and then
Mark and Enrique head for the lab, with the Barrayaran plants.
Ekaterin wants to see Enrique's thesis. She won't understand the
maths - his own tutors didn't - but she'll get the rest of it. He
decides to write a sonnet as an introduction. (A bit like Miles,
hilarious and heartbreaking at the same time.) Mark has a new
worry: what if Enrique falls for Ekaterin? Worse yet, what if she
falls for Enrique? There's a whole new nightmare.




From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 19 13:10:25 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 12:10:25 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 1 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1650366001.1624.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1650366001.1624.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384410CB6741645152332FA7CEF29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



It's an interesting relationship between Mark and Miles. Miles is very
protective of Mark; he won't let Mark feel guilty about the cryo-damage.
Mark likes to score points against Miles, but he really does care about him,
as well. Like so much it this book, it's funny but also heart-wrenching.

And Tsipis - isn't he wonderful! He's very protective about 'his' family,
he really wants Miles's courtship to go well, he wants Ekaterin to be good
enough for Miles. And the whole family love and respect him, too. (In
Memory he reminds Miles of Winterfair celebrations when he was one of
the invitees at Vorkosigan House in the capital, and hopes that Miles is
going to keep that going.) The conversation with Mark is so interesting,
and revealing.

Elli Quinn seems to have made an impact on her visit to Barrayar (was it
only one visit?) Several people have referred to her, they hoped that she'd
marry Miles, Tsipis was one of those who expected Miles to marry a
galactic (well, Barrayarans have those anti-mutie prejudices....) Tsipis also
notes that Ekaterin isn't quite as tall as he expected - he knows Miles's
preferences, perhaps, and again he's remembering Elli. (I think she'd have
been a disaster - she'd hate Barrayar even more than Cordelia does, and
I don't think she has Cordelia's perspective to make the most of it.)

Cordelia... she's had such an influence. Kareen wishes to be like her. Drou
and Kou depended on her for advice and support, at the beginning of their
relationship and later. Gregor wanted her support when he was getting
engaged. Everyone comments on her strength, on her intelligence, but the
most important thing about her is her love - she has such an open heart. Aral
saw that, and valued it. So many good things in this saga came because of
Cordelia's love and acceptance.



From wawenri at msn.com  Tue Apr 19 14:24:00 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 13:24:00 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 1 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB384410CB6741645152332FA7CEF29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1650366001.1624.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384410CB6741645152332FA7CEF29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB48478CA722ECBDB85CEED7D5B4F29@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

It?s interesting that the Old Family Retainer isn?t a butler, or even an arms man (aside from Pym) but the financial advisor. Is there a Chief Financial Officer for the district? Of does Tsipis fill that role as well?
I?m beginning to look at the Barrayan districts as family businesses.

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.

________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2022 6:10:25 AM
To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 1 - Comments



It's an interesting relationship between Mark and Miles. Miles is very
protective of Mark; he won't let Mark feel guilty about the cryo-damage.
Mark likes to score points against Miles, but he really does care about him,
as well. Like so much it this book, it's funny but also heart-wrenching.

And Tsipis - isn't he wonderful! He's very protective about 'his' family,
he really wants Miles's courtship to go well, he wants Ekaterin to be good
enough for Miles. And the whole family love and respect him, too. (In
Memory he reminds Miles of Winterfair celebrations when he was one of
the invitees at Vorkosigan House in the capital, and hopes that Miles is
going to keep that going.) The conversation with Mark is so interesting,
and revealing.

Elli Quinn seems to have made an impact on her visit to Barrayar (was it
only one visit?) Several people have referred to her, they hoped that she'd
marry Miles, Tsipis was one of those who expected Miles to marry a
galactic (well, Barrayarans have those anti-mutie prejudices....) Tsipis also
notes that Ekaterin isn't quite as tall as he expected - he knows Miles's
preferences, perhaps, and again he's remembering Elli. (I think she'd have
been a disaster - she'd hate Barrayar even more than Cordelia does, and
I don't think she has Cordelia's perspective to make the most of it.)

Cordelia... she's had such an influence. Kareen wishes to be like her. Drou
and Kou depended on her for advice and support, at the beginning of their
relationship and later. Gregor wanted her support when he was getting
engaged. Everyone comments on her strength, on her intelligence, but the
most important thing about her is her love - she has such an open heart. Aral
saw that, and valued it. So many good things in this saga came because of
Cordelia's love and acceptance.


--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=05%7C01%7C%7Cc9b9eae5570a4b9a6a6a08da21fd9dd4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637859670404029211%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=Y4t29bqywzXwbYlnw%2FOxwS%2FF%2B7c6OulHeJEnaEaakUY%3D&amp;reserved=0

From proto at panix.com  Tue Apr 19 14:34:42 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 09:34:42 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 1 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB384410CB6741645152332FA7CEF29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1650366001.1624.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384410CB6741645152332FA7CEF29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <120FE851-B39F-466B-A791-D00A8102C132@panix.com>



> On Apr 19, 2022, at 8:10 AM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> So many good things in this saga came because of
> Cordelia?s love and acceptance.

Aral?s sanity, Gregor?s sanity, an Miles?s sanity (such as it is). The whole progressive development
of the Barrayan Empire, etcetera is due thereto. 

IIRC, this is the first time I?ve used ?thereto? in a sentence, but it seemed appropriate here rather than
?to that? which I normally use.

?
"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light."
 - Attributed to Plato







From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk  Tue Apr 19 22:20:48 2022
From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 22:20:48 +0100
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 1 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <CO3PR18MB48478CA722ECBDB85CEED7D5B4F29@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.1.1650366001.1624.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384410CB6741645152332FA7CEF29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CO3PR18MB48478CA722ECBDB85CEED7D5B4F29@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <bs9u5h1arcrm99elabsvqssj6ufrokkc1n@4ax.com>

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 13:24:00 +0000, WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com>
wrote:

>It?s interesting that the Old Family Retainer isn?t a butler, or even an arms man (aside from Pym) but the financial advisor. Is there a Chief Financial Officer for the district? Of does Tsipis fill that role as well?
>I?m beginning to look at the Barrayan districts as family businesses.

The UK royal family is known to its members as "The Firm".
--
They used dogs.  They used probes.  They used cardio plate crossoffs. They used teepers.  They used bribery.  They used stick tites.  They used intimidation.  They used torment.  They used torture.  They used finks.  They used cops.  They used search and seizure.  They used fallaron.  They used betterment incentives.  They used
finger prints. They used the bertillion system.  They used cunning.  They used guile. They used treachery.  They used Raoul-Mitgong but he wasn't much help. They used applied physics.  They used techniques of criminology.  And what the hell, they caught him. (Harlan Ellison, "Repent, Harlequin, said the Tick-Tock Man")


From listmail at gordonj.net  Tue Apr 19 22:28:59 2022
From: listmail at gordonj.net (Gordon Jackson)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 22:28:59 +0100
Subject: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes
Message-ID: <003a01d85434$7d7127f0$785377d0$@gordonj.net>

"My God, of course they'll counterattack. This isn't some trade outpost.
These people are fighting for their homes."-Lois McMaster Bujold, (Aral
Vorkosigan in "Shards of Honour")

There's more than one parallel between current events and the Escobar
invasion. Perhaps Vlad should have read SoH.

(I don't think this qualifies as US politics, my apologies if the consensus
doesn't agree.)


From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk  Tue Apr 19 22:32:08 2022
From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 22:32:08 +0100
Subject: [LMB] OT: the current book market
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204162208050.19960@pannier.local>
References: <4A0378CC-7F6C-4CD7-B3B8-C38DBEC66A3A@gmail.com>
 <CAGxHeV2mmr2iDK4o9XFd_cqq8tTBkKCzdUvNmYbD8cOGtTVJ1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204162208050.19960@pannier.local>
Message-ID: <2iau5hlcn96gn850pctfflfgf3io3t1on7@4ax.com>

On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:21:08 -0400 (EDT), alayne--- via Lois-Bujold
<lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

>
>
>I honestly don't see any value in an NFT.

Remarkably good for money laundering.
--
People must not do things for fun. We are not here for fun.
There is no reference to fun in any Act of Parliament.   - A.P. Herbert


From howard at brazee.net  Tue Apr 19 22:39:05 2022
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 15:39:05 -0600
Subject: [LMB] OT: the current book market
In-Reply-To: <2iau5hlcn96gn850pctfflfgf3io3t1on7@4ax.com>
References: <4A0378CC-7F6C-4CD7-B3B8-C38DBEC66A3A@gmail.com>
 <CAGxHeV2mmr2iDK4o9XFd_cqq8tTBkKCzdUvNmYbD8cOGtTVJ1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204162208050.19960@pannier.local>
 <2iau5hlcn96gn850pctfflfgf3io3t1on7@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <0AFD875C-3E55-4DCD-800B-A2058003850B@brazee.net>



> On Apr 19, 2022, at 3:32 PM, Marc Wilson <marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>> I honestly don't see any value in an NFT.
> 
> Remarkably good for money laundering.


There was a ?tulip? experience when stamp collecting stopped being so useful for money laundering.

From lbujold at myinfmail.com  Tue Apr 19 23:57:07 2022
From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 17:57:07 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers
Message-ID: <6070360b-552b-4bc8-ae08-181e6bb9a02f@myinfmail.com>

So, I am contemplating a long-overdue update of some of my earliest 
e-novella covers, talking with Ron Miller.

I'm thinking of a unified look of Significant Object still lifes (still 
lives?) along the lines of "Knot of Shadows" or "Mira's Last Dance".? 
Something spare and uncluttered, but thematically relevant to each 
tale.? (No figures or scenes.)

The 5 sold-separately novellas up for new clothes are:

"Weatherman"

"The Mountains of Mourning"

"Labyrinth"

"The Borders of Infinity"

"Winterfair Gifts"

I need a pool of ideas for Objects to choose among.? What occur to you all?

(I'm considering weather instrumentation, and ice, for the first, almost 
a gimme, but the rest are harder.)

Ta, L.




From kawyle at att.net  Wed Apr 20 00:20:56 2022
From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:20:56 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers
In-Reply-To: <6070360b-552b-4bc8-ae08-181e6bb9a02f@myinfmail.com>
References: <6070360b-552b-4bc8-ae08-181e6bb9a02f@myinfmail.com>
Message-ID: <1782459348.1156.1650410456461@mail.yahoo.com>

 Does Raina's grave count as an Object?
As for "Winterfair Gifts," there's the pearl necklace? -- if that isn't too much like an erotic romance cover.
Karen A. Wyle    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 06:57:20 PM EDT, Lois Bujold <lbujold at myinfmail.com> wrote:  
 
 So, I am contemplating a long-overdue update of some of my earliest 
e-novella covers, talking with Ron Miller.

I'm thinking of a unified look of Significant Object still lifes (still 
lives?) along the lines of "Knot of Shadows" or "Mira's Last Dance".? 
Something spare and uncluttered, but thematically relevant to each 
tale.? (No figures or scenes.)

The 5 sold-separately novellas up for new clothes are:

"Weatherman"

"The Mountains of Mourning"

"Labyrinth"

"The Borders of Infinity"

"Winterfair Gifts"

I need a pool of ideas for Objects to choose among.? What occur to you all?

(I'm considering weather instrumentation, and ice, for the first, almost 
a gimme, but the rest are harder.)

Ta, L.



-- 
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
  

From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Wed Apr 20 00:40:04 2022
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:40:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers
In-Reply-To: <6070360b-552b-4bc8-ae08-181e6bb9a02f@myinfmail.com>
References: <6070360b-552b-4bc8-ae08-181e6bb9a02f@myinfmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204191931110.23217@pannier.local>

For Winterfair Gifts, I'd definitely go with the pearl necklace, on black 
velvet, along with the green hat that Lady Alys; couteriere made for 
Taura.

Labyrinth - lab coats and measuring instruments?

Alayne

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022, Lois Bujold wrote:

> So, I am contemplating a long-overdue update of some of my earliest 
> e-novella covers, talking with Ron Miller.
>
> I'm thinking of a unified look of Significant Object still lifes (still 
> lives?) along the lines of "Knot of Shadows" or "Mira's Last Dance".? 
> Something spare and uncluttered, but thematically relevant to each 
> tale.? (No figures or scenes.)
>
> The 5 sold-separately novellas up for new clothes are:
>
> "Weatherman"

> "The Mountains of Mourning"
>
> "Labyrinth"
>
> "The Borders of Infinity"
>
> "Winterfair Gifts"
>
> I need a pool of ideas for Objects to choose among.? What occur to you all?
>
> (I'm considering weather instrumentation, and ice, for the first, almost 
> a gimme, but the rest are harder.)
>
> Ta, L.
>
>
>
>

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca

What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich

From rgmolpus at flash.net  Wed Apr 20 00:49:04 2022
From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:49:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers
In-Reply-To: <1782459348.1156.1650410456461@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <6070360b-552b-4bc8-ae08-181e6bb9a02f@myinfmail.com>
 <1782459348.1156.1650410456461@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <288889956.14723.1650412144925@mail.yahoo.com>

 Weatherman: Ice on an anemometer (wind speed device) with outlines of a squad of men behind.?? 
Mountains of mourning: A snow covered tree, dripping water, a mountain peak in the background??? 
Labyrinth: A maze with a werewolf in the center.??? 
The Borders of Infinity: A white dome with a scrap of paper blowing by.
??? 
Winterfair Gifts: A string of pearls, covered in ice.? 


    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 06:21:17 PM CDT, Karen A. Wyle <kawyle at att.net> wrote:  
 
  Does Raina's grave count as an Object?
As for "Winterfair Gifts," there's the pearl necklace? -- if that isn't too much like an erotic romance cover.
Karen A. Wyle? ? On Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 06:57:20 PM EDT, Lois Bujold <lbujold at myinfmail.com> wrote:? 
 
 So, I am contemplating a long-overdue update of some of my earliest 
e-novella covers, talking with Ron Miller.

I'm thinking of a unified look of Significant Object still lifes (still 
lives?) along the lines of "Knot of Shadows" or "Mira's Last Dance".? 
Something spare and uncluttered, but thematically relevant to each 
tale.? (No figures or scenes.)

The 5 sold-separately novellas up for new clothes are:

"Weatherman"

"The Mountains of Mourning"

"Labyrinth"

"The Borders of Infinity"

"Winterfair Gifts"

I need a pool of ideas for Objects to choose among.? What occur to you all?

(I'm considering weather instrumentation, and ice, for the first, almost 
a gimme, but the rest are harder.)

Ta, L.



-- 
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
? 
-- 
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
  

From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net  Wed Apr 20 00:53:36 2022
From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 16:53:36 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers
In-Reply-To: <6070360b-552b-4bc8-ae08-181e6bb9a02f@myinfmail.com>
References: <6070360b-552b-4bc8-ae08-181e6bb9a02f@myinfmail.com>
Message-ID: <977DEAAF-9C71-490B-A54A-FD6A34F4162D@comcast.net>

On Apr 19, 2022, at 3:57 PM, Lois Bujold <lbujold at myinfmail.com> wrote:
> 
> So, I am contemplating a long-overdue update of some of my earliest e-novella covers, talking with Ron Miller.
> 
> I'm thinking of a unified look of Significant Object still lifes (still lives?) along the lines of "Knot of Shadows" or "Mira's Last Dance".  Something spare and uncluttered, but thematically relevant to each tale.  (No figures or scenes.)
> 
> The 5 sold-separately novellas up for new clothes are:
> 
> "Weatherman"
> 
> "The Mountains of Mourning"
> 

A bridle, a knife, and a syringe (for the fast-penta)

> "Labyrinth"
> 

A temperature dial and a crate (of weapons)

> "The Borders of Infinity"

ration packs?

> 
> "Winterfair Gifts"
> 

I agree with the suggestions of a pearl necklace.




From huntkc at gmail.com  Wed Apr 20 02:05:27 2022
From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:05:27 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers
In-Reply-To: <6070360b-552b-4bc8-ae08-181e6bb9a02f@myinfmail.com>
References: <6070360b-552b-4bc8-ae08-181e6bb9a02f@myinfmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABsO85=v0b3974TX2thdBnmxL57S-1dQnFOQLJro9yjYVMcfKA@mail.gmail.com>

 On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 6:57 PM Lois Bujold <lbujold at myinfmail.com> wrote:

> So, I am contemplating a long-overdue update of some of my earliest
> e-novella covers, talking with Ron Miller.
>
> I'm thinking of a unified look of Significant Object still lifes (still
> lives?) along the lines of "Knot of Shadows" or "Mira's Last Dance".
> Something spare and uncluttered, but thematically relevant to each
> tale.  (No figures or scenes.)
>
> The 5 sold-separately novellas up for new clothes are:
>
> "Weatherman"
>
> "The Mountains of Mourning"
>
> "Labyrinth"
>
> "The Borders of Infinity"
>
> "Winterfair Gifts"
>
> I need a pool of ideas for Objects to choose among.  What occur to you all?
>
> (I'm considering weather instrumentation, and ice, for the first, almost
> a gimme, but the rest are harder.)
>
>
Skein of thread for the labyrinth? Or is that too far off from actual
events in the tale?
Maybe a cradle for The Mountains of Mourning.
I think the pearl necklace is already used on one version of Winterfair
Gifts, but it is suitable.

Karen Hunt

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Wed Apr 20 02:14:37 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 01:14:37 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2094.1650412157.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2094.1650412157.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38446A49689FE31AFDDE45E4CEF59@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Lois Bujold <lbujold at myinfmail.com>

I thought of the string of pearls for Winterfair Gifts, but then I
wondered if that would telegraph too much of the plot. How
about the ice statue of the rabbits?  Ok, possibly no.

From fishman at panix.com  Wed Apr 20 02:23:54 2022
From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 01:23:54 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38446A49689FE31AFDDE45E4CEF59@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.2094.1650412157.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38446A49689FE31AFDDE45E4CEF59@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <em4292411a-2afc-4186-a27f-4a9bb10dade5@desktop-ckcgfo5>



------ Original Message ------
From: "Gwynne Powell" <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
To: "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk" <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Bcc: fishman at panix.com
Sent: 4/19/2022 9:14:37 PM
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers

>From: Lois Bujold <lbujold at myinfmail.com>
>
>I thought of the string of pearls for Winterfair Gifts, but then I
>wondered if that would telegraph too much of the plot. How
>about the ice statue of the rabbits?  Ok, possibly no.
There are obscenity laws, so I would think that the rabbits are out. ;-)

Harvey



From ravenclaweric at gmail.com  Wed Apr 20 05:13:51 2022
From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:13:51 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers
In-Reply-To: <CABsO85=v0b3974TX2thdBnmxL57S-1dQnFOQLJro9yjYVMcfKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6070360b-552b-4bc8-ae08-181e6bb9a02f@myinfmail.com>
 <CABsO85=v0b3974TX2thdBnmxL57S-1dQnFOQLJro9yjYVMcfKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO7QBz9JuCi40TzFqXTPKxFsE95a3TrnE3RmEcz24vs_HmebQA@mail.gmail.com>

I like an empty cradle, with blankets disarranged as though the baby has
just been taken out, with a black ribbon tied to it in mourning, for
"Mountains of Mourning."

On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 8:05 PM Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:

>  On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 6:57 PM Lois Bujold <lbujold at myinfmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > So, I am contemplating a long-overdue update of some of my earliest
> > e-novella covers, talking with Ron Miller.
> >
> > I'm thinking of a unified look of Significant Object still lifes (still
> > lives?) along the lines of "Knot of Shadows" or "Mira's Last Dance".
> > Something spare and uncluttered, but thematically relevant to each
> > tale.  (No figures or scenes.)
> >
> > The 5 sold-separately novellas up for new clothes are:
> >
> > "Weatherman"
> >
> > "The Mountains of Mourning"
> >
> > "Labyrinth"
> >
> > "The Borders of Infinity"
> >
> > "Winterfair Gifts"
> >
> > I need a pool of ideas for Objects to choose among.  What occur to you
> all?
> >
> > (I'm considering weather instrumentation, and ice, for the first, almost
> > a gimme, but the rest are harder.)
> >
> >
> Skein of thread for the labyrinth? Or is that too far off from actual
> events in the tale?
> Maybe a cradle for The Mountains of Mourning.
> I think the pearl necklace is already used on one version of Winterfair
> Gifts, but it is suitable.
>
> Karen Hunt
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From vanlook19 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 20 16:00:42 2022
From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 08:00:42 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers
In-Reply-To: <6070360b-552b-4bc8-ae08-181e6bb9a02f@myinfmail.com>
References: <6070360b-552b-4bc8-ae08-181e6bb9a02f@myinfmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD5sqnDryC+T5hzzwEMHYvrPBC7r6-zBKkxwbm5bwhiSuLw42Q@mail.gmail.com>

"Weatherman": a close-up of a vehicle, halfway sunk into the ice

"The Mountains of Mourning": a bramble/branch of wild roses

"Labyrinth": the freezer dial

"The Borders of Infinity": an imaginary Musketeer style hat or one rat bar
against a cube of them

"Winterfair Gifts": the pearls or the snowy skellytum



On Tue, Apr 19, 2022, 3:57 PM Lois Bujold <lbujold at myinfmail.com> wrote:

> So, I am contemplating a long-overdue update of some of my earliest
> e-novella covers, talking with Ron Miller.
>
> I'm thinking of a unified look of Significant Object still lifes (still
> lives?) along the lines of "Knot of Shadows" or "Mira's Last Dance".
> Something spare and uncluttered, but thematically relevant to each
> tale.  (No figures or scenes.)
>
> The 5 sold-separately novellas up for new clothes are:
>
> "Weatherman"
>
> "The Mountains of Mourning"
>
> "Labyrinth"
>
> "The Borders of Infinity"
>
> "Winterfair Gifts"
>
> I need a pool of ideas for Objects to choose among.  What occur to you all?
>
> (I'm considering weather instrumentation, and ice, for the first, almost
> a gimme, but the rest are harder.)
>
> Ta, L.
>
>
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to vanlook19 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From matt.msg at gmail.com  Wed Apr 20 18:29:50 2022
From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 13:29:50 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers
In-Reply-To: <CAD5sqnDryC+T5hzzwEMHYvrPBC7r6-zBKkxwbm5bwhiSuLw42Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6070360b-552b-4bc8-ae08-181e6bb9a02f@myinfmail.com>
 <CAD5sqnDryC+T5hzzwEMHYvrPBC7r6-zBKkxwbm5bwhiSuLw42Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAjYNUoY4EJe8PmZEU5Qb6jZ9L0YrA9uRW-_JQhX5+7TB8kDJA@mail.gmail.com>

Labyrinth:  A control panel, with one control clearly marked as the
temperature regulator for sample storage; a furry finger ending in a claw
is pushing a slider up to the 'sterilize' setting.

Weatherman:  A copy of the Service Manual atop a map of the base, with a
blue area marked P.I.Z. and circled in red pen.

Borders:  I'm tempted to suggest a severed head wearing a command helmet,
but that's excessively morbid.  Perhaps an image of a human back - no neck,
head, arms, or lower body visible - with the words "Ceta Spy" crudely
scratched into the skin.  (Not a still life if the subject is alive,
although I suppose you could argue the picture was 'taken' after the bearer
was beaten to death - surely there are corpse still lifes?)

The problem with BoI - in this context - is that so little of the story
involves objects.  With the notable exception of the torn and folded piece
of paper from A Pilgrim's Progress.  Perhaps someone could be done with
that, the broken cup, and the blanket?  A ration bar?

Matt G.

From fred.fredex at gmail.com  Wed Apr 20 19:11:13 2022
From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:11:13 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers
In-Reply-To: <6070360b-552b-4bc8-ae08-181e6bb9a02f@myinfmail.com>
References: <6070360b-552b-4bc8-ae08-181e6bb9a02f@myinfmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF2xExs=AQD_bQ7CfGTysK5p9+EMXGEH7NoZeL9Uk+QWwB4OkA@mail.gmail.com>

weatherman: a half-sunken vehicle, in quicksand (not ice), with possibly a
weather station in the background. or a tent instead of a weather station.
Or, an irate senior officer screaming at Miles. :)

Mountains of Mourning: a jug of maple mead? :) :)

Winterfair Gifts: Pearls, yes, but showing torn giftwrap, and a small
jewelbox, opened, showing the pearl necklace. If it is possible to make the
pearls look as if they are glowing (or to be more storyline-accurate, if
they can be made to look slightly dirty), then that too.

Fred

On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 6:57 PM Lois Bujold <lbujold at myinfmail.com> wrote:

> So, I am contemplating a long-overdue update of some of my earliest
> e-novella covers, talking with Ron Miller.
>
> I'm thinking of a unified look of Significant Object still lifes (still
> lives?) along the lines of "Knot of Shadows" or "Mira's Last Dance".
> Something spare and uncluttered, but thematically relevant to each
> tale.  (No figures or scenes.)
>
> The 5 sold-separately novellas up for new clothes are:
>
> "Weatherman"
>
> "The Mountains of Mourning"
>
> "Labyrinth"
>
> "The Borders of Infinity"
>
> "Winterfair Gifts"
>
> I need a pool of ideas for Objects to choose among.  What occur to you all?
>
> (I'm considering weather instrumentation, and ice, for the first, almost
> a gimme, but the rest are harder.)
>
> Ta, L.
>
>
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca  Thu Apr 21 03:20:35 2022
From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 22:20:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 1 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB384410CB6741645152332FA7CEF29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1650366001.1624.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384410CB6741645152332FA7CEF29@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2204202212200.29838@pannier.local>

Thanks, Gwynne, for the delightful precis of all the different 
relationships we see in this chapter and the love among the characters...

Earlier today my spouse was saying he didn't like a mystery serioes 
we'd recently watched because it concentrated on the relationships among 
the characters to the detriment of the more interesting mystery plots (and 
it certainly wasn't first TV series I've watched that got into this 
soap-operish mode...)

One thing I really like about ACC is that all these relationships don't 
load down the plot but rather enrich it. And

Alayne

-- 
Alayne McGregor
alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca

What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We
need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the
institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate
and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 21 12:17:40 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 11:17:40 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1650538801.3337.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1650538801.3337.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844C1D311A492CB9FF0A1B5CEF49@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



Weatherman - A hand reaching up through the ice.

The Mountains of Mourning - An empty cradle. The title is already dark, if the cover is too
gloomy it'll turn people away.

Labyrinth - A clawed hand clutching a rat. Or if that's too animal, a clawed hand splayed
across a control panel.
.
The Borders of Infinity - A large hat with a feather in the hatband (Yes, I know it's not real, but he MAKES it real.)

Winterfair Gifts - I still think the pearls gives too much of the story away. I'd go for a table with
several gifts - including the pearls spilling out of the box, and the cat-blanket.



From jessgoesnorth at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Apr 21 13:43:25 2022
From: jessgoesnorth at yahoo.co.uk (Jessica Smith)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 12:43:25 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1650538801.3337.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1650538801.3337.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1628506307.2677853.1650545005248@mail.yahoo.com>

 Weatherman -?piles of clothes on the snow. Or perhaps a bottle/glass of some strong alcohol (with ice?)??Mountains of mourning - something that juxtaposes high tech and very low tech, maybe a stunner and a very rustic looking knife. Or just an empty crib.?
Labyrinth - I like the freezer dial idea. Or possibly a two-sided hammer dulcimer.Borders of Infinity - a hat with a hole where a feather might be, or a broken cup.
Winterfair Gifts - tempted to suggest the grinning rabbits, but probably shoots of new growth in the snow would be better.?
Jess
  

From wawenri at msn.com  Thu Apr 21 14:07:34 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 13:07:34 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers
In-Reply-To: <1628506307.2677853.1650545005248@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1650538801.3337.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <1628506307.2677853.1650545005248@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB4847B44855A459B81A72CC0DB4F49@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

I like most of these. If you go with the plants in the snow, make sure they aren?t geeen.

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.

________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Jessica Smith via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2022 6:43:25 AM
To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Cc: Jessica Smith <jessgoesnorth at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers

Weatherman - piles of clothes on the snow. Or perhaps a bottle/glass of some strong alcohol (with ice?)  Mountains of mourning - something that juxtaposes high tech and very low tech, maybe a stunner and a very rustic looking knife. Or just an empty crib.
Labyrinth - I like the freezer dial idea. Or possibly a two-sided hammer dulcimer.Borders of Infinity - a hat with a hole where a feather might be, or a broken cup.
Winterfair Gifts - tempted to suggest the grinning rabbits, but probably shoots of new growth in the snow would be better.
Jess

--
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Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=05%7C01%7C%7C9fce6e063d3e41813c9a08da239490f2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637861418236732985%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=zQsu9FQ3Adph0oMtPzabXfZCkzlhlTQEFLb2DA1TZMw%3D&amp;reserved=0

From lmb at matija.com  Thu Apr 21 14:07:35 2022
From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:07:35 +0100
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers
In-Reply-To: <6070360b-552b-4bc8-ae08-181e6bb9a02f@myinfmail.com>
References: <6070360b-552b-4bc8-ae08-181e6bb9a02f@myinfmail.com>
Message-ID: <c4e37ad7-57de-0708-ce4c-6f3ea45ec21b@matija.com>


On 19/04/2022 23:57, Lois Bujold wrote:
> So, I am contemplating a long-overdue update of some of my earliest 
> e-novella covers, talking with Ron Miller.
>
> I'm thinking of a unified look of Significant Object still lifes 
> (still lives?) along the lines of "Knot of Shadows" or "Mira's Last 
> Dance".? Something spare and uncluttered, but thematically relevant to 
> each tale.? (No figures or scenes.)
>
> "Weatherman"
An above eye level view of an elevated road going from left to right in 
the picture. Behind the road (from our point of view) we can see water 
flooding over existing structures (fields, light poles, or similar). 
Toward us, under the road, we see the mouth of the culvert, with just a 
trickle of water.
> "The Mountains of Mourning"
A lighted torch lying on a tent which is not affected.
>
> "The Borders of Infinity"
A transportation pallet, covered with packages torn open and strewn 
around chaotically. Packages are marked "POW ration"


From saffronrose at me.com  Thu Apr 21 23:10:03 2022
From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 15:10:03 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Are Transparent Solar Panels Real? | Snopes.com
Message-ID: <BEE275D2-10C6-4F1F-9EBD-C11F0750B725@me.com>

Neato!

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/are-transparent-solar-panels-real/

A. Marina Fournier
Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA
Sent from iFionnghuala

From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 22 07:16:29 2022
From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 01:16:29 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Are Transparent Solar Panels Real? | Snopes.com
In-Reply-To: <BEE275D2-10C6-4F1F-9EBD-C11F0750B725@me.com>
References: <BEE275D2-10C6-4F1F-9EBD-C11F0750B725@me.com>
Message-ID: <CAK6ahzaZ0mPoAAXwnmgaw=ujG+4zz4tzP84EoqXCQhVOMQJ=bQ@mail.gmail.com>

Absolutely neato!

On Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 5:10 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

> Neato!
>
> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/are-transparent-solar-panels-real/
>
> A. Marina Fournier
> Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA
> Sent from iFionnghuala
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 22 12:32:28 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 11:32:28 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844867563DB96DBB979232ECEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



This is an interesting exercise, because it's more of a challenge than it seems at first.

The covers aren't for those of use who've already read the books, it's
to attract new readers. So it has to be something to attract people;
Mountains of Mourning is a hard one, because it can't be too gloomy.
And it can't be too obvious; the pearls in Winterfair Gifts telegraph too
much of the ending.

So... not too gloomy, not giving away too much of the story, but capturing
the tone, and attracting people. It's a challenge.

From mathews55 at msn.com  Fri Apr 22 13:59:13 2022
From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 12:59:13 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: Are Transparent Solar Panels Real? | Snopes.com
In-Reply-To: <CAK6ahzaZ0mPoAAXwnmgaw=ujG+4zz4tzP84EoqXCQhVOMQJ=bQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BEE275D2-10C6-4F1F-9EBD-C11F0750B725@me.com>
 <CAK6ahzaZ0mPoAAXwnmgaw=ujG+4zz4tzP84EoqXCQhVOMQJ=bQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MN2PR04MB684744C53E2CD2FB62B09C09B4F79@MN2PR04MB6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Are they technically feasible with what we have now? And are they economically feasible? If so, it's very good news.
________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Raymond Collins <rcrcoll6 at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2022 12:16 AM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Are Transparent Solar Panels Real? | Snopes.com

Absolutely neato!

On Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 5:10 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

> Neato!
>
> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/are-transparent-solar-panels-real/
>
> A. Marina Fournier
> Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA
> Sent from iFionnghuala
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>
--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold

From fishman at panix.com  Fri Apr 22 14:32:15 2022
From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 13:32:15 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: Are Transparent Solar Panels Real? | Snopes.com
In-Reply-To: <MN2PR04MB684744C53E2CD2FB62B09C09B4F79@mn2pr04mb6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BEE275D2-10C6-4F1F-9EBD-C11F0750B725@me.com>
 <CAK6ahzaZ0mPoAAXwnmgaw=ujG+4zz4tzP84EoqXCQhVOMQJ=bQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MN2PR04MB684744C53E2CD2FB62B09C09B4F79@mn2pr04mb6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <emfc6f544b-e917-4e2f-acef-2684e45ec93f@desktop-ckcgfo5>

Well, the Stillwell Avenue Terminal in Coney Island on New York City 
transit was rebuilt in 2004 with a Solar Panel roof that also lights the 
station. Has worked relatively flawlessly for 18 years.

Harvey

------ Original Message ------
From: "Pat Mathews" <mathews55 at msn.com>
To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." 
<lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Bcc: fishman at panix.com
Sent: 4/22/2022 8:59:13 AM
Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Are Transparent Solar Panels Real? | Snopes.com

>Are they technically feasible with what we have now? And are they economically feasible? If so, it's very good news.
>________________________________
>From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Raymond Collins <rcrcoll6 at gmail.com>
>Sent: Friday, April 22, 2022 12:16 AM
>To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Are Transparent Solar Panels Real? | Snopes.com
>
>Absolutely neato!
>
>On Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 5:10 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold <
>lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>  Neato!
>>
>>https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/are-transparent-solar-panels-real/
>>
>>  A. Marina Fournier
>>  Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA
>>  Sent from iFionnghuala
>>  --
>>  Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com
>>Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
>>http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>>
>--
>Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com
>Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
>http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>--
>Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com
>Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
>http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold



From mathews55 at msn.com  Fri Apr 22 16:32:12 2022
From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 15:32:12 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: Are Transparent Solar Panels Real? | Snopes.com
In-Reply-To: <emfc6f544b-e917-4e2f-acef-2684e45ec93f@desktop-ckcgfo5>
References: <BEE275D2-10C6-4F1F-9EBD-C11F0750B725@me.com>
 <CAK6ahzaZ0mPoAAXwnmgaw=ujG+4zz4tzP84EoqXCQhVOMQJ=bQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MN2PR04MB684744C53E2CD2FB62B09C09B4F79@mn2pr04mb6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <emfc6f544b-e917-4e2f-acef-2684e45ec93f@desktop-ckcgfo5>
Message-ID: <MN2PR04MB6847BB5F67CE721C74F06DC1B4F79@MN2PR04MB6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Excellent!
________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Harvey Fishman <fishman at panix.com>
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2022 7:32 AM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Are Transparent Solar Panels Real? | Snopes.com

Well, the Stillwell Avenue Terminal in Coney Island on New York City
transit was rebuilt in 2004 with a Solar Panel roof that also lights the
station. Has worked relatively flawlessly for 18 years.

Harvey

------ Original Message ------
From: "Pat Mathews" <mathews55 at msn.com>
To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold."
<lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Bcc: fishman at panix.com
Sent: 4/22/2022 8:59:13 AM
Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Are Transparent Solar Panels Real? | Snopes.com

>Are they technically feasible with what we have now? And are they economically feasible? If so, it's very good news.
>________________________________
>From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Raymond Collins <rcrcoll6 at gmail.com>
>Sent: Friday, April 22, 2022 12:16 AM
>To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Are Transparent Solar Panels Real? | Snopes.com
>
>Absolutely neato!
>
>On Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 5:10 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold <
>lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>  Neato!
>>
>>https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/are-transparent-solar-panels-real/
>>
>>  A. Marina Fournier
>>  Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA
>>  Sent from iFionnghuala
>>  --
>>  Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com
>>Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
>>http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>>
>--
>Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com
>Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
>http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>--
>Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com
>Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
>http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold


--
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From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 22 17:52:28 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 16:52:28 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844614C8D720A4BD9B8EE69CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



This is one of my less-favourite parts of the book; it's another
Let's-make-Ivan-feel-like-an-idiot sections. (The interesting thing in
this book is that Ivan does some of the most important actions in
the book, saving people, saving the day, but he's consistently
put down and denigrated throughout.)

By asked Ivan to greet Donna at the shuttleport, so Ivan is there with
a bunch of flowers, appropriately. And Donna is now Dono. By, of
course, knew and said nothing. Ivan's been remembering his time
with Donna, and has great hopes of rekindling things.

And then we see two of Pierre's armsmen, and... Dono. Ivan
actually realises what's happened pretty fast. Dono coos over the
flowers, to Szabo's irritation - obviously there's been a lot of
bloke lessons on the way home. And:

"Sorry Szabo." The voice's pitch plunged again to its initial masculine depth. "Couldn't resist. I mean, it's Ivan."
Yes, Ivan is the joke. Again. But they're quite happy to make use
of him anyway.

It's interesting how Dono is perceived differently to Donna. And
treated differently. Dono is prepared to enjoy seeing Barrayaran
society from a different angle.

The armsmen are all obviously on Dono's side. Partly this could be
just to save their jobs, but I think it's more than that. Men with
their qualifications could get other jobs (and they'd have armsmen
pensions and military pensions as well, anyway.) But they really
don't want Richars running their District. (I have a feeling that
Richars doesn't treat underlings well. He doesn't really understand
the power structure there, with armsmen.)

Not only do the armsmen hate him, but Dono REALLY hates him,
for a rape attempt when Donna was 12, and then drowning her
puppy when she fought him off, AND making the whole family
blame her for it. (Honestly, the Vorrutyer family - all branches of
it - was HORRENDOUS. That Dono and By turned out as well as they
did, with only a little damage, was a miracle.)  By and Donna
stuck together - I think they saved each other.

Richars thwarted at least two of Pierre's attempts to marry, and
possibly had the third fiance killed. In a few paragraphs we've
been given ample reason to hate him, and see him as total sleaze.

Ivan is actually able to discuss the operation and the changes a
little more easily, probably, than most Barrayaran males. He's had
Cordelia for an aunt, after all.

Vorrutyer House is as forbidding and ramshackle as the family
it houses; an old castle, designed for maximum protection, and
damage to invaders. (What an interesting place Vorbarr Sultana
must have been in the Good Old Days.) It's as gloomy and miserable
inside as you'd expect, too.

Ivan's first useful act: he gives Szabo the name of Miles's cleaning
service.

Richars tried to get into the place twice; the armsmen and Byerly
fought him off. Again, he under-estimated them.

Szabo coaches Dono on how to sit; don't copy By. Ivan is better as
a model of masculinity. Aral is best, and Miles is pretty good; they
project power. Miles has learned it, Aral is a natural.

Ivan is kept as a witness to the changes. Again, he copes well,
considering. (And don't you love the mental image of all those
serious men carefully studying Dono's wedding tackle!) It's still
growing... seriously, not a subject I wish to focus on. But Dono
is equipped to be considered a male, on Barrayar. And with
Donna's rich experience, Dono doesn't expect any problems
when pleasing a partner.  So Dono is all ready to hit the Council
of Counts.

And this is when Ivan is useful again - possibly even saving the
day; he warns them not to ambush Gregor. Surprise the Counts,
make a fool of Ivan, that's all fine. But DO NOT blindside Gregor.
And Ivan knows exactly how Gregor is going to react; he's far
more tuned in, politically, than he'll admit.

"He can," said Ivan, "but he won't, without strong motivation. Don't give him that motivation. Gregor does not like political surprises."

"I thought Gregor was fairly easy-going," said By, "for an emperor."

"No," said Ivan firmly. "He is not. He is merely rather quiet. It's not the same thing at all. You don't want to see what he's like pissed."

And when Gregor's angry he's just as quiet (remember him
interrogating Haroche in Memory?) and only those who know him
well can tell. Like Ivan.

And Ivan gets them an interview with Gregor. Yes, he's worth his weight
in gold; if they'd blindsided Gregor he might have stopped them cold.
He hasn't used his security card for years; the man who answers thinks
he must have used it by mistake. Gregor is having a private dinner
with Laisa.

Ivan doesn't explain, just asks for an interview for Donna. And says that
he has nothing to do with any of this. That's what decides Gregor that
it's serious.

Yes, I talked a lot about Ivan in this bit, but it's mostly him. He DOES
save the situation, several ways.

But Donna... how much do you have to hate someone, to change
gender to thwart them?




















From kawyle at att.net  Fri Apr 22 18:01:27 2022
From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 17:01:27 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844614C8D720A4BD9B8EE69CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844614C8D720A4BD9B8EE69CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <2069344490.265290.1650646887022@mail.yahoo.com>

 It may be easier to contemplate when one has been thwarted in various ways one's whole life by a culture's treatment of one's original gender.
Karen A. Wyle
    On Friday, April 22, 2022, 12:52:43 PM EDT, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:  
 [snip]
But Donna... how much do you have to hate someone, to change
gender to thwart them?



















-- 
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
  

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 22 18:02:59 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 17:02:59 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844C74AB6D36F3F69239614CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



Ivan mentions that some Betans switch genders several times in their lives,
to see life from a different perspective. Would you consider it? It might be
interesting, if you could try it for a while and then switch back.

Famous Vorrutyers: Pierre le Sanguinaire and mad architect Dono.
Pierre the Bloody is an interesting ancestor to have... Dorca's right-hand
man, official thug, grandfather to Piotr Vorkosigan. (Well, everyone's
related to the Vorrutyers.) Famous, effective, and he did help Dorca
weld the Districts together to make a united Empire. But probably not
someone you'd want living next door to you.

Richars has all the worst features of the Vorrutyers, with none of the
saving graces. Dono and Byerly seem to be the pick of the litter.

And I love the armsmen; NEVER underestimate the power of the armsmen.
They know everything that's going on, and they have a lot of power. A
sensible Count who chooses well has a powerful support system there,
and not just physically.

And there's an interesting moment when Ivan asks Dono, in passing,
about Donna's busy social life. When they're taking about Gregor:
"You didn't sleep with HIM, did you?"  So Gregor must have had some
..er... social interests. Dalliances with courtesans and experienced
widows? Nobody who'd expect a marriage proposal; he avoided Vor
buds like the plague.

From fishman at panix.com  Fri Apr 22 18:09:43 2022
From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 17:09:43 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844614C8D720A4BD9B8EE69CEF79@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844614C8D720A4BD9B8EE69CEF79@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <emdd0740b9-4f01-4559-aab7-df0ee487a516@desktop-ckcgfo5>



------ Original Message ------
From: "Gwynne Powell" <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
To: "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk" <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Bcc: fishman at panix.com
Sent: 4/22/2022 12:52:28 PM
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2

>
>But Donna... how much do you have to hate someone, to change
>gender to thwart them?
>
On Barrayar??

Harvey



From ravenclaweric at gmail.com  Fri Apr 22 19:04:17 2022
From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 13:04:17 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <emdd0740b9-4f01-4559-aab7-df0ee487a516@desktop-ckcgfo5>
References: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844614C8D720A4BD9B8EE69CEF79@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
 <emdd0740b9-4f01-4559-aab7-df0ee487a516@desktop-ckcgfo5>
Message-ID: <CAO7QBz_wS6PaSYGtdArx2qFvxfc7NxRDRtdEbd65EGE_ywAX9A@mail.gmail.com>

Frankly, if I'd been old Count Pierre, I'd have...taken steps...to deal
with Richars long before it was my time to shuffle off this mortal coil and
join the 'Eavenly Choir Invisibule.

"I want Richars Vorrutyer, for the rest of his life, to be DEAD!"

Or if I had inhibitions about killing family members (gee, Richars was
found stuffed in a ground car's trunk, hogtied and showing signs of having
been hit with a nerve disruptor to the brain.  "Gee, I wonder WHO could
have done that?  Get out the Vorbarr Sultana Com directory, because that's
your suspect list!") he might have awakened some fine morning to find a
horse's head in his bed.  What can I say---I've a weakness for the classics.

I'll bet that if Richars had been dealing with Pierre le Sanguinaire, he'd
have been very very good and very very quiet.

On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 12:09 PM Harvey Fishman <fishman at panix.com> wrote:

>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Gwynne Powell" <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
> To: "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk" <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
> Bcc: fishman at panix.com
> Sent: 4/22/2022 12:52:28 PM
> Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
>
> >
> >But Donna... how much do you have to hate someone, to change
> >gender to thwart them?
> >
> On Barrayar??
>
> Harvey
>
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From kdschoen1 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 22 19:34:33 2022
From: kdschoen1 at gmail.com (Kenton Schoen)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 14:34:33 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844867563DB96DBB979232ECEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844867563DB96DBB979232ECEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAMqW7=7JX_R-bF1aH3PjL2APkwLZGBMwdS=dcskR9xTLGZcpdw@mail.gmail.com>

For Labyrinth; Taura's hand, scratched, dirty, broken nails, about to turn
the temperature all the way up.

For Winterfair Gifts; Taura's hand, now healed, manicured, nails colored,
near the pearls.

How did we get from A to B?

Kenton

On Fri, Apr 22, 2022, 7:32 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> This is an interesting exercise, because it's more of a challenge than it
> seems at first.
>
> The covers aren't for those of use who've already read the books, it's
> to attract new readers. So it has to be something to attract people;
> Mountains of Mourning is a hard one, because it can't be too gloomy.
> And it can't be too obvious; the pearls in Winterfair Gifts telegraph too
> much of the ending.
>
> So... not too gloomy, not giving away too much of the story, but capturing
> the tone, and attracting people. It's a challenge.
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kdschoen1 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From kcollett at hamilton.edu  Fri Apr 22 19:56:59 2022
From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Katherine Collett)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 14:56:59 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844614C8D720A4BD9B8EE69CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844614C8D720A4BD9B8EE69CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <DB8D99E0-DB12-4A1C-8E92-08F0C6F4281E@hamilton.edu>

On Apr 22, 2022, at 12:52 PM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dono coos over the
> flowers, to Szabo's irritation - obviously there's been a lot of
> bloke lessons on the way home. And:
> 
> "Sorry Szabo." The voice's pitch plunged again to its initial masculine depth. "Couldn't resist. I mean, it's Ivan."
> Yes, Ivan is the joke. Again. But they're quite happy to make use
> of him anyway.

Oh, I don't take Dono's "I mean, it's Ivan" as meaning he's a joke, but as meaning that he's _safe_.  Okay, safe to joke with may be part of it, but foremost, safe to show that Dono and Donna are the same person, safe to be free with.

Katherine

From ravenclaweric at gmail.com  Fri Apr 22 20:12:44 2022
From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 14:12:44 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <DB8D99E0-DB12-4A1C-8E92-08F0C6F4281E@hamilton.edu>
References: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844614C8D720A4BD9B8EE69CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <DB8D99E0-DB12-4A1C-8E92-08F0C6F4281E@hamilton.edu>
Message-ID: <CAO7QBz8Cs26j9tw0z_zUiS53ngcLEO+5DpS6FsgdRJqAosmsfw@mail.gmail.com>

If someone had pulled that kind of stunt on me, they'd find out fast just
how unpleasant I am to deal with when I'm angry.  (Not that I'm not
normally highly unpleasant, but this is to that about what Everclear is to
wine coolers).  I can understand Gregor's dislike of political surprises,
since I dislike surprises in general and react very badly to the
unexpected.

If they were *lucky*, I'd take it out in explaining, in icily polite
language and never raising my voice (think "Lord Peter Wimsey when he's
pissed off) just how badly they'd put their foot in the butter churn this
time.   If not lucky...let's not go there, shall we?

On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 1:57 PM Katherine Collett <kcollett at hamilton.edu>
wrote:

> On Apr 22, 2022, at 12:52 PM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Dono coos over the
> > flowers, to Szabo's irritation - obviously there's been a lot of
> > bloke lessons on the way home. And:
> >
> > "Sorry Szabo." The voice's pitch plunged again to its initial masculine
> depth. "Couldn't resist. I mean, it's Ivan."
> > Yes, Ivan is the joke. Again. But they're quite happy to make use
> > of him anyway.
>
> Oh, I don't take Dono's "I mean, it's Ivan" as meaning he's a joke, but as
> meaning that he's _safe_.  Okay, safe to joke with may be part of it, but
> foremost, safe to show that Dono and Donna are the same person, safe to be
> free with.
>
> Katherine
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From litalex at gmail.com  Fri Apr 22 20:23:52 2022
From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 15:23:52 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <CAO7QBz8Cs26j9tw0z_zUiS53ngcLEO+5DpS6FsgdRJqAosmsfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844614C8D720A4BD9B8EE69CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <DB8D99E0-DB12-4A1C-8E92-08F0C6F4281E@hamilton.edu>
 <CAO7QBz8Cs26j9tw0z_zUiS53ngcLEO+5DpS6FsgdRJqAosmsfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1E55B0F2-7456-4335-B481-241F919CADAA@gmail.com>

Hello,

Hmm, I think you can blame By for the surprise, but Dono was more thinking of his district than pranking Ivan.

little Alex

> On Apr 22, 2022, at 15:12, Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> If someone had pulled that kind of stunt on me, they'd find out fast just
> how unpleasant I am to deal with when I'm angry.  (Not that I'm not
> normally highly unpleasant, but this is to that about what Everclear is to
> wine coolers).  I can understand Gregor's dislike of political surprises,
> since I dislike surprises in general and react very badly to the
> unexpected.
> 
> If they were *lucky*, I'd take it out in explaining, in icily polite
> language and never raising my voice (think "Lord Peter Wimsey when he's
> pissed off) just how badly they'd put their foot in the butter churn this
> time.   If not lucky...let's not go there, shall we?
> 
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 1:57 PM Katherine Collett <kcollett at hamilton.edu>
> wrote:
> 
>> On Apr 22, 2022, at 12:52 PM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dono coos over the
>>> flowers, to Szabo's irritation - obviously there's been a lot of
>>> bloke lessons on the way home. And:
>>> 
>>> "Sorry Szabo." The voice's pitch plunged again to its initial masculine
>> depth. "Couldn't resist. I mean, it's Ivan."
>>> Yes, Ivan is the joke. Again. But they're quite happy to make use
>>> of him anyway.
>> 
>> Oh, I don't take Dono's "I mean, it's Ivan" as meaning he's a joke, but as
>> meaning that he's _safe_.  Okay, safe to joke with may be part of it, but
>> foremost, safe to show that Dono and Donna are the same person, safe to be
>> free with.
>> 
>> Katherine



From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 22 20:36:08 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 19:36:08 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2160.1650655443.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2160.1650655443.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38448F8F8CBDF92FD0D14706CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com>


Frankly, if I'd been old Count Pierre, I'd have...taken steps...to deal
with Richars long before it was my time to shuffle off this mortal coil and
join the 'Eavenly Choir Invisibule....

Gwynne: I think that Pierre should have named an heir, even if he intended to
try once again at finding a bride. Surely there were plenty of women who'd
be happy to be a Countess - as Rosalie points out in the next chapter, with
replicators a marriage doesn't have to be intimate any more. If he'd had any
fight in him he'd have found an eager middle-class Vor, or a prole, married
her before anything was made official, and got a baby into the replicator
as fast as possible. And have armed guards around it.

But he didn't have the energy and drive for that, so at least he could have
named an heir. He didn't like Richars, or any of that generation, or any of
their spawn - so why not name Byerly? He couldn't do a worse job than Pierre.



From cjbotteron at gmail.com  Fri Apr 22 20:35:35 2022
From: cjbotteron at gmail.com (Carol Botteron)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 15:35:35 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
Message-ID: <CACqhCVdikGo3kRJE_ZtJdjkeFQo3Sy+4cG7hz2nCjm8izNqh1A@mail.gmail.com>

From: Alex Kwan <litalex at gmail.com>
Hmm, I think you can blame By for the surprise, but Dono was more thinking
of his district than pranking Ivan.

Carol:  I agree.  I suspect that Dono chose Ivan as a test case to see how
Barrayarans might react to the change.  Ivan is typical in some ways, and
can be trusted not to react violently or to spread the news prematurely.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 22 20:44:53 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 19:44:53 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2160.1650655443.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2160.1650655443.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844A8C3B352D52A39029FC9CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Katherine Collett <kcollett at hamilton.edu>


Oh, I don't take Dono's "I mean, it's Ivan" as meaning he's a joke, but as meaning that he's _safe_.  Okay, safe to joke with may be part of it, but foremost, safe to show that Dono and Donna are the same person, safe to be free with.
Katherine

Gwynne: Yes, they do trust him. But there's a certain glee as they watch
his reaction - from both of them. And Ivan is the one who saves their bid
for the Countship. He saves Rene as well. Gets no thanks from anyone.

Ok, I'm feeling a bit Ivanish - he's constant throughout the book, he does
some wonderful, smart things, and he gets no recognition at all. Not that
he wants any, of course. But still...

From mathews55 at msn.com  Fri Apr 22 21:12:06 2022
From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 20:12:06 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38448F8F8CBDF92FD0D14706CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.2160.1650655443.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38448F8F8CBDF92FD0D14706CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <MN2PR04MB6847460FCA092E9619B55315B4F79@MN2PR04MB6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Why not name Byerly? Because Byerly had already established his persona as a total town clown, and gay at that. Not Count material.
________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2022 1:36 PM
To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2

From: Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com>


Frankly, if I'd been old Count Pierre, I'd have...taken steps...to deal
with Richars long before it was my time to shuffle off this mortal coil and
join the 'Eavenly Choir Invisibule....

Gwynne: I think that Pierre should have named an heir, even if he intended to
try once again at finding a bride. Surely there were plenty of women who'd
be happy to be a Countess - as Rosalie points out in the next chapter, with
replicators a marriage doesn't have to be intimate any more. If he'd had any
fight in him he'd have found an eager middle-class Vor, or a prole, married
her before anything was made official, and got a baby into the replicator
as fast as possible. And have armed guards around it.

But he didn't have the energy and drive for that, so at least he could have
named an heir. He didn't like Richars, or any of that generation, or any of
their spawn - so why not name Byerly? He couldn't do a worse job than Pierre.


--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold

From c_muir68 at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 22 21:36:55 2022
From: c_muir68 at hotmail.com (catherine muir)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 20:36:55 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <DB8D99E0-DB12-4A1C-8E92-08F0C6F4281E@hamilton.edu>
References: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844614C8D720A4BD9B8EE69CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <DB8D99E0-DB12-4A1C-8E92-08F0C6F4281E@hamilton.edu>
Message-ID: <VI1PR04MB56323DDF0AE0B421B21212DAFEF79@VI1PR04MB5632.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>

I am just stuck by how much Ivan is his mother?s son in all of this.  Doesn?t seem to be a mover and shaker but quietly uses his personal contacts, personal knowledge, to achieve what he has decided is a desirable outcome.  And nobody outside the plot sees it.

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

From: Katherine Collett<mailto:kcollett at hamilton.edu>
Sent: 22 April 2022 19:57
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold.<mailto:lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2

On Apr 22, 2022, at 12:52 PM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dono coos over the
> flowers, to Szabo's irritation - obviously there's been a lot of
> bloke lessons on the way home. And:
>
> "Sorry Szabo." The voice's pitch plunged again to its initial masculine depth. "Couldn't resist. I mean, it's Ivan."
> Yes, Ivan is the joke. Again. But they're quite happy to make use
> of him anyway.

Oh, I don't take Dono's "I mean, it's Ivan" as meaning he's a joke, but as meaning that he's _safe_.  Okay, safe to joke with may be part of it, but foremost, safe to show that Dono and Donna are the same person, safe to be free with.

Katherine
--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to c_muir68 at hotmail.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold


From howard at brazee.net  Fri Apr 22 21:44:15 2022
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 14:44:15 -0600
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <VI1PR04MB56323DDF0AE0B421B21212DAFEF79@VI1PR04MB5632.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844614C8D720A4BD9B8EE69CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <DB8D99E0-DB12-4A1C-8E92-08F0C6F4281E@hamilton.edu>
 <VI1PR04MB56323DDF0AE0B421B21212DAFEF79@VI1PR04MB5632.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <4793390C-A9B6-4EC2-88D0-F8F6AE427C46@brazee.net>



> On Apr 22, 2022, at 2:36 PM, catherine muir <c_muir68 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I am just stuck by how much Ivan is his mother?s son in all of this. Doesn?t seem to be a mover and shaker but quietly uses his personal contacts, personal knowledge, to achieve what he has decided is a desirable outcome. And nobody outside the plot sees it.

Yeah, isn?t about time that we read a novel about Ivan?

From a_neff at bellsouth.net  Fri Apr 22 21:54:31 2022
From: a_neff at bellsouth.net (Ann Neff)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 16:54:31 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <VI1PR04MB56323DDF0AE0B421B21212DAFEF79@VI1PR04MB5632.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844614C8D720A4BD9B8EE69CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <DB8D99E0-DB12-4A1C-8E92-08F0C6F4281E@hamilton.edu>
 <VI1PR04MB56323DDF0AE0B421B21212DAFEF79@VI1PR04MB5632.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <004e01d8568b$2b246d00$816d4700$@bellsouth.net>

He really is very competent and intelligent in many ways, but quiet about
it.  

There has got to be so much leftover from when he and Miles were very young
growing up together -- always comparisons, in both directions, even if never
out loud to the child. Miles is a genius and showy too, but geniuses need
competent people around them who aren't hogging the spotlight.

His mother knows he isn't stupid, certainly, but she is very managing, and
he absolutely has set boundaries in a tactful way with her, so he
disappoints her but is not in flaming rebellion. 



-----Original Message-----
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> On Behalf Of
catherine muir
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2022 4:37 PM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold.
<lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2

I am just stuck by how much Ivan is his mother's son in all of this.
Doesn't seem to be a mover and shaker but quietly uses his personal
contacts, personal knowledge, to achieve what he has decided is a desirable
outcome  And nobody outside the plot sees it.



From proto at panix.com  Fri Apr 22 22:44:08 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 17:44:08 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844A8C3B352D52A39029FC9CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.2160.1650655443.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844A8C3B352D52A39029FC9CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <19C2088C-1F67-47CD-A58F-9A9C69181D04@panix.com>



> On Apr 22, 2022, at 3:44 PM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Ok, I'm feeling a bit Ivanish - he's constant throughout the book, he does
> some wonderful, smart things, and he gets no recognition at all. Not that
> he wants any, of course. But still?

In CVA we learn he gets a new job. He did remember that doing well a job
gets rewarded with a tougher job. 

?
Sig intentionally left blank.


From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 23 02:43:32 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 01:43:32 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2163.1650660269.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2163.1650660269.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38447DC2C3FEC7B53E149F01CEF69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Pat Mathews <mathews55 at msn.com>



Why not name Byerly? Because Byerly had already established his persona as a total town clown, and gay at that. Not Count material.

Gwynne: Pierre was hardly Count material, he was pretty useless. Look at
Vorfolse, too. By can't do worse than them. And he'd have Donna to help him.
As for being gay; replicators will take care of that. Plenty of women would be
happy to be a Countess with a complaisant husband. Besides, if Pierre hated
Richars enough, and he did, he'd be happy to see anyone else taking the
Countship.

From ravenclaweric at gmail.com  Sat Apr 23 03:23:30 2022
From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 21:23:30 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38447DC2C3FEC7B53E149F01CEF69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.2163.1650660269.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38447DC2C3FEC7B53E149F01CEF69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAO7QBz_PyR4L6QV5ASytcb8n2Ad7y2X=tTWJv9ki8TEpGBz6BA@mail.gmail.com>

How do we KNOW that Byerly's gay?  I used to know a guy whom all the other
guys ASSUMED was gay...until he found himself in court with several women
claiming child support for the children he'd fathered on them.

Has this been stated in-canon, or is this fanon?

On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 8:43 PM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> From: Pat Mathews <mathews55 at msn.com>
>
>
>
> Why not name Byerly? Because Byerly had already established his persona as
> a total town clown, and gay at that. Not Count material.
>
> Gwynne: Pierre was hardly Count material, he was pretty useless. Look at
> Vorfolse, too. By can't do worse than them. And he'd have Donna to help
> him.
> As for being gay; replicators will take care of that. Plenty of women
> would be
> happy to be a Countess with a complaisant husband. Besides, if Pierre hated
> Richars enough, and he did, he'd be happy to see anyone else taking the
> Countship.
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From litalex at gmail.com  Sat Apr 23 04:30:38 2022
From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 23:30:38 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <CAO7QBz_PyR4L6QV5ASytcb8n2Ad7y2X=tTWJv9ki8TEpGBz6BA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2163.1650660269.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38447DC2C3FEC7B53E149F01CEF69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAO7QBz_PyR4L6QV5ASytcb8n2Ad7y2X=tTWJv9ki8TEpGBz6BA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <35C7B2A0-917A-480A-8E9D-A1E925244023@gmail.com>

Hello,

I think Rish and Tej (or maybe even Ivan) talked about it in CVA. So at most Byerly is bisexual, since he was happily sleeping with Rish. And I don?t know if he?s known as non-hetero in Vorbarr Sultana either, since people readily accepted it when he joined the other two men to ?court? Ekaterin.

little Alex

> On Apr 22, 2022, at 22:23, Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> How do we KNOW that Byerly's gay?  I used to know a guy whom all the other
> guys ASSUMED was gay...until he found himself in court with several women
> claiming child support for the children he'd fathered on them.
> 
> Has this been stated in-canon, or is this fanon?
> 
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 8:43 PM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> From: Pat Mathews <mathews55 at msn.com>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Why not name Byerly? Because Byerly had already established his persona as
>> a total town clown, and gay at that. Not Count material.
>> 
>> Gwynne: Pierre was hardly Count material, he was pretty useless. Look at
>> Vorfolse, too. By can't do worse than them. And he'd have Donna to help
>> him.
>> As for being gay; replicators will take care of that. Plenty of women
>> would be
>> happy to be a Countess with a complaisant husband. Besides, if Pierre hated
>> Richars enough, and he did, he'd be happy to see anyone else taking the
>> Countship.
>> --
>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
>> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>> 
> -- 
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to litalex at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold



From proto at panix.com  Sat Apr 23 10:49:04 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 05:49:04 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <4793390C-A9B6-4EC2-88D0-F8F6AE427C46@brazee.net>
References: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844614C8D720A4BD9B8EE69CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <DB8D99E0-DB12-4A1C-8E92-08F0C6F4281E@hamilton.edu>
 <VI1PR04MB56323DDF0AE0B421B21212DAFEF79@VI1PR04MB5632.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <4793390C-A9B6-4EC2-88D0-F8F6AE427C46@brazee.net>
Message-ID: <3267E07C-68FB-48D2-A9FF-D88EEF7A8568@panix.com>



> On Apr 22, 2022, at 4:44 PM, Howard Brazee <howard at brazee.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 22, 2022, at 2:36 PM, catherine muir <c_muir68 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I am just stuck by how much Ivan is his mother?s son in all of this. Doesn?t seem to be a mover and shaker but quietly uses his personal contacts, personal knowledge, to achieve what he has decided is a desirable outcome. And nobody outside the plot sees it.
> 
> Yeah, isn?t about time that we read a novel about Ivan?

Indeed, I don?t remember do a group read of CVA.
> -- 

This space deliberately left blank.





From proto at panix.com  Sat Apr 23 10:58:47 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 05:58:47 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38447DC2C3FEC7B53E149F01CEF69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.2163.1650660269.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38447DC2C3FEC7B53E149F01CEF69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <B98DE423-ED9C-4E81-9A41-4B8C85CC4AB7@panix.com>



> On Apr 22, 2022, at 9:43 PM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Why not name Byerly? Because Byerly had already established his persona as a total town clown, and gay at that. Not Count material.

The gay part might be part of his act, to gain access to certain people and groups.

I am disappointed that English has no fictional or mythical tenses.
?
The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret. ? Terry Pratchett, The Truth


From mathews55 at msn.com  Sat Apr 23 12:23:35 2022
From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 11:23:35 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <B98DE423-ED9C-4E81-9A41-4B8C85CC4AB7@panix.com>
References: <mailman.2163.1650660269.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38447DC2C3FEC7B53E149F01CEF69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <B98DE423-ED9C-4E81-9A41-4B8C85CC4AB7@panix.com>
Message-ID: <MN2PR04MB68477A7FEB94FEDF1EE21E7EB4F69@MN2PR04MB6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

In some languages, the subjunctive is used to for that. Ever try to run a subjunctive past your idiot grammar-checker?
________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2022 3:58 AM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2



> On Apr 22, 2022, at 9:43 PM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Why not name Byerly? Because Byerly had already established his persona as a total town clown, and gay at that. Not Count material.

The gay part might be part of his act, to gain access to certain people and groups.

I am disappointed that English has no fictional or mythical tenses.
?
The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret. ? Terry Pratchett, The Truth

--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold

From mathews55 at msn.com  Sat Apr 23 12:25:17 2022
From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 11:25:17 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <35C7B2A0-917A-480A-8E9D-A1E925244023@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2163.1650660269.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38447DC2C3FEC7B53E149F01CEF69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAO7QBz_PyR4L6QV5ASytcb8n2Ad7y2X=tTWJv9ki8TEpGBz6BA@mail.gmail.com>
 <35C7B2A0-917A-480A-8E9D-A1E925244023@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MN2PR04MB6847FC9CDF96EBE35C0D5873B4F69@MN2PR04MB6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Good point!
________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Alex Kwan <litalex at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2022 9:30 PM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2

Hello,

I think Rish and Tej (or maybe even Ivan) talked about it in CVA. So at most Byerly is bisexual, since he was happily sleeping with Rish. And I don?t know if he?s known as non-hetero in Vorbarr Sultana either, since people readily accepted it when he joined the other two men to ?court? Ekaterin.

little Alex

> On Apr 22, 2022, at 22:23, Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> How do we KNOW that Byerly's gay?  I used to know a guy whom all the other
> guys ASSUMED was gay...until he found himself in court with several women
> claiming child support for the children he'd fathered on them.
>
> Has this been stated in-canon, or is this fanon?
>
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 8:43 PM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> From: Pat Mathews <mathews55 at msn.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> Why not name Byerly? Because Byerly had already established his persona as
>> a total town clown, and gay at that. Not Count material.
>>
>> Gwynne: Pierre was hardly Count material, he was pretty useless. Look at
>> Vorfolse, too. By can't do worse than them. And he'd have Donna to help
>> him.
>> As for being gay; replicators will take care of that. Plenty of women
>> would be
>> happy to be a Countess with a complaisant husband. Besides, if Pierre hated
>> Richars enough, and he did, he'd be happy to see anyone else taking the
>> Countship.
>> --
>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
>> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to litalex at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold


--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 23 13:32:51 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 12:32:51 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Subject: Re:  A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1650711601.11342.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1650711601.11342.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38446E2FB643C4EE611A11EACEF69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: "Ann Neff" <a_neff at bellsouth.net>

He really is very competent and intelligent in many ways, but quiet about it.
There has got to be so much leftover from when he and Miles were very young
growing up together -- always comparisons, in both directions, even if never
out loud to the child. Miles is a genius and showy too, but geniuses need
competent people around them who aren't hogging the spotlight.

Gwynne: Miles depends on Ivan more than he realises. Ivan was a huge part of his
childhood; not many other kids would play with him. Beating Ivan - at anything -
was massively important to Miles. He refers to Ivan a lot, he talks about him to
people all over the Nexus who will never meet him. And when he needs help, a
'donkey', Ivan's always the one. In Cetaganda we see Ivan tending to Miles, dealing
with his leg braces and his depression, getting him up and dressed on time.  In Memory
Ivan is able to deal easily with Miles's paralysing depression.

Which is why his treatment of Ivan later is so selfish.



From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 23 13:36:02 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 12:36:02 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1650711601.11342.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1650711601.11342.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38441CD633D65659CAB32249CEF69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: catherine muir


I am just stuck by how much Ivan is his mother's son in all of this.
Doesn't seem to be a mover and shaker but quietly uses his personal
contacts, personal knowledge, to achieve what he has decided is a desirable
outcome  And nobody outside the plot sees it.

Gwynne: That's a good point! Loyal, efficient and quiet! With a very finely-
tuned political sense.

From rgmolpus at flash.net  Sat Apr 23 14:49:46 2022
From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 13:49:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <B98DE423-ED9C-4E81-9A41-4B8C85CC4AB7@panix.com>
References: <mailman.2163.1650660269.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38447DC2C3FEC7B53E149F01CEF69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <B98DE423-ED9C-4E81-9A41-4B8C85CC4AB7@panix.com>
Message-ID: <124862325.448964.1650721786565@mail.yahoo.com>

 My take has been that Pierre was so disgusted by all his relatives (some for very good cause) that he hoped the Council of Counts would appoint another family to run the district.


    On Saturday, April 23, 2022, 04:59:00 AM CDT, WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com> wrote:  
 
 

> On Apr 22, 2022, at 9:43 PM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Why not name Byerly? Because Byerly had already established his persona as a total town clown, and gay at that. Not Count material.

The gay part might be part of his act, to gain access to certain people and groups.

I am disappointed that English has no fictional or mythical tenses.
?
The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret. ? Terry Pratchett, The Truth

-- 
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
  

From a_neff at bellsouth.net  Sat Apr 23 15:20:29 2022
From: a_neff at bellsouth.net (ANN NEFF)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 14:20:29 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Subject: Re:  A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38446E2FB643C4EE611A11EACEF69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1650711601.11342.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38446E2FB643C4EE611A11EACEF69@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <BN7PR04MB441995019909439B1CA626A4A3F69@BN7PR04MB4419.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Miles is very selfish especially as Naismith, although self centered might be more accurate. He pays attention to people, but to size them up and assess for how they could be useful.  Later on, during the aftermath of the dinner party is when his self centeredness changes to self examination.

I just listened to Cetaganda, and was shocked by how much caretaking Ivan did, without thanks.  Probably from childhood, and neither seems to be aware.

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2022 8:32:51 AM
To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: [LMB] Subject: Re: A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2

From: "Ann Neff" <a_neff at bellsouth.net>

He really is very competent and intelligent in many ways, but quiet about it.
There has got to be so much leftover from when he and Miles were very young
growing up together -- always comparisons, in both directions, even if never
out loud to the child. Miles is a genius and showy too, but geniuses need
competent people around them who aren't hogging the spotlight.

Gwynne: Miles depends on Ivan more than he realises. Ivan was a huge part of his
childhood; not many other kids would play with him. Beating Ivan - at anything -
was massively important to Miles. He refers to Ivan a lot, he talks about him to
people all over the Nexus who will never meet him. And when he needs help, a
'donkey', Ivan's always the one. In Cetaganda we see Ivan tending to Miles, dealing
with his leg braces and his depression, getting him up and dressed on time.  In Memory
Ivan is able to deal easily with Miles's paralysing depression.

Which is why his treatment of Ivan later is so selfish.


--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to a_neff at bellsouth.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold

From fishman at panix.com  Sat Apr 23 19:45:24 2022
From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 18:45:24 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Just wondering; when is the next tea party?
In-Reply-To: <BN7PR04MB441995019909439B1CA626A4A3F69@bn7pr04mb4419.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.1.1650711601.11342.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38446E2FB643C4EE611A11EACEF69@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
 <BN7PR04MB441995019909439B1CA626A4A3F69@bn7pr04mb4419.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <em3d69da70-8014-461d-8274-ccba0b139f33@desktop-ckcgfo5>

It seems to me that it has been quite a while since we had one.

Harvey



From domelouann at gmail.com  Sat Apr 23 21:39:00 2022
From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 15:39:00 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Just wondering; when is the next tea party?
In-Reply-To: <em3d69da70-8014-461d-8274-ccba0b139f33@desktop-ckcgfo5>
References: <mailman.1.1650711601.11342.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38446E2FB643C4EE611A11EACEF69@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
 <BN7PR04MB441995019909439B1CA626A4A3F69@bn7pr04mb4419.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <em3d69da70-8014-461d-8274-ccba0b139f33@desktop-ckcgfo5>
Message-ID: <CAGqU+difP-Ss1v6M0cjxZ8pC+_NCNBWZGaVxzhY+b5uKOpx2Wg@mail.gmail.com>

I would love one also.

On Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 1:45 PM Harvey Fishman <fishman at panix.com> wrote:

> It seems to me that it has been quite a while since we had one.
>
> Harvey
>
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to domelouann at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From matt.msg at gmail.com  Sat Apr 23 22:46:40 2022
From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 17:46:40 -0400
Subject: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes
In-Reply-To: <003a01d85434$7d7127f0$785377d0$@gordonj.net>
References: <003a01d85434$7d7127f0$785377d0$@gordonj.net>
Message-ID: <CAAjYNUqP9_u7DRDc9n6g0SqnR26NaX1ZJMo1gszrD17QOBR7aQ@mail.gmail.com>

It's obviously World Politics.  The US isn't involved at all.

The key difference is that Escobar was an established galactic power, in
full communication with the rest of the galaxy for centuries.  So it would
be roughly of the same power as Barrayar.  Russia invading the Ukraine is
in no way a 'fair' fight.

Matt G.

From phoenixargent at gmail.com  Sat Apr 23 23:15:15 2022
From: phoenixargent at gmail.com (Eileen McConnell)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 17:15:15 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Brainstorming. Or drizzling ... novella e-covers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1650538801.3337.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1650538801.3337.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAOK71ej1svNpEPq21AGZim2ipP8N7eJPdfAtkuQZtVfN+RL5Gg@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> "Weatherman": Miles's vehicle was the first thing that came to mind to me,
> too.  That, or perhaps a 'Weather Manual' with the base name stamped on it?
>
> "The Mountains of Mourning": Mountains against an evening/morning
> skyline?  A dagger?
>
> "Labyrinth": Love the suggestions others have made of the control panel or
> dial, but given the title (and not to give too much away), I also thought
> of a metal access ladder and hatch (the kind Miles & Taura go up to access
> the freezer room), a rat, or perhaps a Dendarii rank insignia pin.
>
> "The Borders of Infinity":  Somewhat more metaphorical than the others,
> but the first thing I thought of was a (prisonlike) fence.  Other ideas a
> (prison) gate, a pair of empty manacles, or an empty ration pack wrapper.
>
> "Winterfair Gifts": a pearl necklace, possibly lying on opened gift wrap?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 19, 2022, 3:57 PM Lois Bujold <lbujold at myinfmail.com> wrote:
>
> > So, I am contemplating a long-overdue update of some of my earliest
> > e-novella covers, talking with Ron Miller.
> >
> > I'm thinking of a unified look of Significant Object still lifes (still
> > lives?) along the lines of "Knot of Shadows" or "Mira's Last Dance".
> > Something spare and uncluttered, but thematically relevant to each
> > tale.  (No figures or scenes.)
> >
> > The 5 sold-separately novellas up for new clothes are:
> >
> > "Weatherman"
> >
> > "The Mountains of Mourning"
> >
> > "Labyrinth"
> >
> > "The Borders of Infinity"
> >
> > "Winterfair Gifts"
> >
> > I need a pool of ideas for Objects to choose among.  What occur to you
> all?
> >
> > (I'm considering weather instrumentation, and ice, for the first, almost
> > a gimme, but the rest are harder.)
> >
> > Ta, L.
>
>

From howard at brazee.net  Sat Apr 23 23:25:04 2022
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 16:25:04 -0600
Subject: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes
In-Reply-To: <CAAjYNUqP9_u7DRDc9n6g0SqnR26NaX1ZJMo1gszrD17QOBR7aQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003a01d85434$7d7127f0$785377d0$@gordonj.net>
 <CAAjYNUqP9_u7DRDc9n6g0SqnR26NaX1ZJMo1gszrD17QOBR7aQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <06D23E36-3C74-4EB2-B977-473260416C74@brazee.net>



> On Apr 23, 2022, at 3:46 PM, Matthew George <matt.msg at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The key difference is that Escobar was an established galactic power, in
> full communication with the rest of the galaxy for centuries. So it would
> be roughly of the same power as Barrayar. Russia invading the Ukraine is
> in no way a 'fair' fight.

Nobody wants to fight a ?fair? fight.   Not in war.   They all want to win big.   But it?s easy for dictators to surround themselves with yes-men who tell them what they want to know.   And it?s even easy for people on the Internet to find themselves surrounded with people who tell them what they want to hear.

But that?s always dangerous.

From wawenri at msn.com  Sun Apr 24 03:19:04 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 02:19:04 +0000
Subject: [LMB] List Info
Message-ID: <SN4PR18MB48373E49323FD6DA21754811B4F99@SN4PR18MB4837.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

Hazel and Anna had their Spring piano concert tonight. Anna played Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious and Extra Special Day.Hazel played Sea Voyage and Arabian Dance.
They did great!

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.


From sylviamcivers at gmail.com  Sun Apr 24 06:39:26 2022
From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 01:39:26 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <3267E07C-68FB-48D2-A9FF-D88EEF7A8568@panix.com>
References: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844614C8D720A4BD9B8EE69CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <DB8D99E0-DB12-4A1C-8E92-08F0C6F4281E@hamilton.edu>
 <VI1PR04MB56323DDF0AE0B421B21212DAFEF79@VI1PR04MB5632.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <4793390C-A9B6-4EC2-88D0-F8F6AE427C46@brazee.net>
 <3267E07C-68FB-48D2-A9FF-D88EEF7A8568@panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAD6Rr-y-S2tYkFoLSirYDLKe6ZaEzJca1gYpePmwN9QEfy8KPA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 23, 2022 at 5:49 AM WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com> wrote:

> > Yeah, isn?t about time that we read a novel about Ivan?
> Indeed, I don?t remember do a group read of CVA.
>

 We've done it, but not in a long while.
+1 to anyone who can list all of Tej's names (in order!) without looking it
up.

Sylvia

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 24 06:39:40 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 05:39:40 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2173.1650721820.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2173.1650721820.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38447D52A9B291C8640D1DA7CEF99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Richard Molpus <rgmolpus at flash.net>

 My take has been that Pierre was so disgusted by all his relatives (some for very good cause) that he hoped the Council of Counts would appoint another family to run the district.

Gwynne: It's amazing (and sad) how many people don't make a will. Even if
they're old, or very ill, they still don't - I think it makes their death too real to
them.  Dono says that Pierre had some vague idea that he'd still find a bride,
and have a child - the time just went by, he certainly wasn't going to name
Richars or any of his brothers, or any of their sons. So he just drifted along -
I think poor Pierre drifted a lot. I don't know how Donna and By turned out so
well, considering their family background - they certainly gave each other some
support when they were growing up, so maybe the link between them is even
stronger and more important than we realise.

From magick_isle at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 24 07:10:27 2022
From: magick_isle at yahoo.com (WackyRomanticPyrate)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 06:10:27 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] tea party
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2181.1650778786.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2181.1650778786.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <417024470.715036.1650780627858@mail.yahoo.com>

 is it a zoom tea party?
...Is this like tea w/Miles??

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 24 09:39:59 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 08:39:59 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Subject: Re:  A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2181.1650778786.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2181.1650778786.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844DE41D4AF0F003DD12DC2CEF99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: ANN NEFF <a_neff at bellsouth.net>

Miles is very selfish especially as Naismith, although self centered might be more accurate. He pays attention to people, but to size them up and assess for how they could be useful.  Later on, during the aftermath of the dinner party is when his self centeredness changes to self examination.

I just listened to Cetaganda, and was shocked by how much caretaking Ivan did, without thanks.  Probably from childhood, and neither seems to be aware.

Gwynne: Yes, Miles takes people for granted, he takes their help for granted. And
he especially takes Ivan for granted.

But, to be fair, I wonder if it relates to his childhood. He spent all of his childhood with high
medical needs. And there were always people helping him and tending to him. Perhaps he
developed a kind of filter, to ignore the physical treatments, and let his mind jump on to
other things. And having people look after him was his normal; it was right and expected
that people would do what he needed. It can take a really long time to get past the mindsets
you pick up in childhood.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 24 09:41:31 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 08:41:31 +0000
Subject: [LMB] List Info
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2181.1650778786.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2181.1650778786.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844943CB690FA0D831EFA40CEF99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com>

Hazel and Anna had their Spring piano concert tonight. Anna played Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious and Extra Special Day.Hazel played Sea Voyage and Arabian Dance.
They did great!
William A Wenrich

Gwynne: I'm so glad for them!  Big congratulations to you all!

From lmb at matija.com  Sun Apr 24 09:50:55 2022
From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 09:50:55 +0100
Subject: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes
In-Reply-To: <CAAjYNUqP9_u7DRDc9n6g0SqnR26NaX1ZJMo1gszrD17QOBR7aQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003a01d85434$7d7127f0$785377d0$@gordonj.net>
 <CAAjYNUqP9_u7DRDc9n6g0SqnR26NaX1ZJMo1gszrD17QOBR7aQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f2e5ceed-c194-ba57-d8a9-0db6aa2f66dc@matija.com>

On 23/04/2022 22:46, Matthew George wrote:
>    The US isn't involved at all.

That's not entirely true. The US banged the drum about the Russian 
buildup on Ukraine's borders for weeks, forcing European and other NATO 
leaders to dust off their contingency plans and voice their support for 
Ukraine's legitimate government before the attack took place. If the US 
had not banged that drum, and worked through NATO to create support, the 
world reaction to the attack, when it finally came, would be far more 
muted and wait-and-see - which might have made enough of a difference 
that the fait might have actually become acompli.

Let's not forget that in the final days before the invasion there were 
big shipments of shoulder launched anti-tank (and anti-air) weapons from 
NATO members (and Sweden) to Ukraine. I haven't seen anybody credible 
arguing those didn't make a difference. And the current administration 
just allocated another 800 million to "security related aid to Ukraine" 
- which means weapons and weapon systems. Hopefully those will make a 
difference, too.

Could the US be any more involved without triggering Russia into 
starting WW3? That is a million dollar question.

> The key difference is that Escobar was an established galactic power, in
> full communication with the rest of the galaxy for centuries.  So it would
> be roughly of the same power as Barrayar.

I'm not sure what you base that on. I should think it depends very, very 
much on how much of their GDP Escobar was devoting to developing their 
planetary defense. Barrayar was a militarized society, Escobar was not. 
Escobar did not know that Barrayar had a direct line of attack to them, 
so they had no reason for intense defense preparations.

That's not "roughly the same power". It matters what you allocate your 
taxes for, and it's not something that can be changed quickly.

Barrayar had at the time two populated planets, (at least one of which 
counts as wealthy) in it's Empire, while Escobar only has the one planet 
(prosperous though it may be). That's not "roughly the same power".

Remember that Cordelia saw immediately that it was vital for the 
information of Barrayar access to the new wormholes to reach Beta and 
with it, the wider galactic community - that is why she ordered her crew 
to return home immediately. Unfortunately, they took a vote. 
Fortunately, they still made it home - and alerted the wider galactic 
community that something was cooking. Still with that, the galactic help 
only came after the wormhole was already blockaded.

Now, once Barrayar started landing on the planet, there the difference 
between supply line length began telling, and Cordelia's fleet's timely 
delivery of advanced weaponry made it possible for Escobar to attack not 
just the troops on the ground, but the support ships in orbit and all 
the way to the wormhole.

Without the support of the Betan expeditionary force (and whoever else 
was involved, I wonder if there was Cetan support), Escobar would have 
become a part of the Barrayaran empire, just like Komarr did. And I 
would be willing to bet, Serg would become the butcher of Escobar in a 
way that would make the butcher of Komarr completely pale in comparison.

>    Russia invading the Ukraine is
> in no way a 'fair' fight.

Certainly Russia did not intend it to be. With wide international 
support Ukraine stands somewhat more of a chance than it would have 
otherwise. The outcome of the whole thing is still far from a foregone 
conclusion, and continued support of Ukraine is vital if they are to 
survive.

Hopefully, someday we can bring the Butcher of Butcha and/or the Butcher 
of Irpin to trial. That will not happen if the Russians win.


From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 24 10:24:52 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 09:24:52 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 8
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2181.1650778786.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2181.1650778786.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844E2C875A5A6C3D7DDC4CDCEF99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



I love this part!

Ekaterin is working on computer, planning the gardens - and she is awesome,
she's so skilled, and she's loving her work. Today she starts putting the
Dendarii rocks in, and making a burbling creek. A great day. And this garden
will last for a long time... just the way Vorkosigan House has lasted... there's
continuity there (history as an attractive quality in a partner. Interesting.)
It's just about time to go and get dressed, and get Nikki ready for school,
when the doorbell rings - panic! She's in her pj's, and her hair is a mess
(think about this, Ekaterin, if you want to get rid of those suitors, this might
be the moment.)

It's not a suitor, it's her sister-in-law. Rosalie is comfortably middle-class Vor.
Rosalie wants to be coy about her visit, but Ekaterin doesn't have the time
or inclination. They do the family catchup, then Rosalie drops a few hints,
and drops the big news: Her father's received a baba's visit. A 'very
eligible' offer. From a proper Vor gentleman. A bit old-fashioned maybe,
but the family are so happy about it.

Ekaterin is going to be safely and comfortably married; what more could
a Vor widow want!

Aunt Vorthys - watch her through this chapter - looks startled.

Ekaterin's first thought: Miles how dare you... without asking me first.
How outrageous. But... oh... for him to choose her... for that huge house,
that District that needs so much, that fascinating body, that burning
intensity... she's only touched him a few times and it practically scorched
her skin, there was such an emotional reaction to him. Those eyes, all
that emotion... all hers... but how dare he ambush her ... there's just
about equal anger and delight.

'He' told the baba he wanted to get in before his rivals. Ekaterin says he
has no rivals.

The conversation goes on - or rather, some totally different conversations.
Rosalie really should have mentioned a name. But interesting that
Ekaterin goes right to Miles.

But why did he send a baba, and not speak to her? He's slippery, a bit
of a trickster. So was the garden a trick? Is her work a joke, just part
of his plot? She was so starved for any admiration that she was easy
meat for someone with a kind word. She'd been trying so hard to be
independent, to make a new life. Was it all a lie? She plunges into
shame and rage.

Rosalie finally mentions a name. Vormoncrief. Oh. Ah. No.

Ekaterin says 'no' at increasing volume.

Aunt Vorthys  - sits back and relaxes.

Rosalie has no time at all for that strange little mutie, no matter
what his rank. Has HE been courting her?

"Apparently not."

Ick, he's a mutie. But... we... with replicators you wouldn't have
to have any contact with him. And you'd be a Countess one day.
But ... no, you're not that desperate. (Rosalie is busy carrying both
sides of the conversation while Ekaterin recovers.)

But wait: if Miles didn't send the Baba then he's not courting her,
so the garden is real and she has no reason to be angry with him...
(Her mind is pretty much like a hamster on a wheel at this moment.
Hormones will do that to you.)

Ekaterin roundly refuses Alexei's offer. Aunt Vorthys backs her up;
she can do better. (Of course, for Rosalie 'better' is a higher-ranking
man, not a great career.) Don't wait too long, Ekaterin, you're not
getting any younger. You don't want to become a mad old woman
living in some relative's attic (Transalation: Rosalie doesn't want a
widowed sis-in-law moving in.)

Ekaterin has to get ready for work. Rosalie expected a day of
celebration, but how about some shopping instead? (Rosalie
doesn't work outside the home, and she thinks that any woman
should be able to drop her little time-filling job and go and have
some fun, at any time.)

Shopping... she went shopping on Komarr, with Miles. Funny how
he keeps on popping into her mind.

Ok, no shopping, but lunch? Then the story of the garden comes
out. And Rosalie bristles with suspicion: is the mutie lord bothering
her? If so, she'll set Hugo onto him. Or.. .since Hugo might not
be delighted at the idea... she'll give him a piece of her mind herself.
(Place of women in Barrayaran society? Rosalie has no hesitation
in taking on a Count's heir and Auditor if necessary. And she's
sure she'll win.)

Ekaterin runs her shower hot, then cold, then hot. She goes
through a range of emotions, most of which she thought she
didn't have. Miles fascinates her, attracts her, has woken some
deep arousal in her. Is it intrusive to use a real person in your
fantasies? Is she aching for an affair with someone? How do you
find a partner? How do you ASK? But negating her erotic feelings
goes back to the dreary time with Tien. She wants to be free of
him, of all the things she had to be for him. And he likes her, she
knows that. And she likes him back. And  soon the garden will
be finished and she'll never see him again. And that hamster is
back on the wheel again.

Anyway, she doesn't have to see him today. Sometimes he sits
on the wall and watches the progress, but he never intrudes.
She'll see him at the dinner party tomorrow. With people safely
around them.

And she has no idea how she feels, or how he feels, or what or why
or anything... but she's got a creek to build. That's solid and safe
and she can just enjoy it safely.

















From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 24 10:34:02 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 09:34:02 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign Ch 8 - Part 1 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2183.1650792302.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2183.1650792302.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38448B4C1493F7110D4F1594CEF99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



So many things happening in one conversation.

Rosalie is prattling on happily about Ekaterin being nicely married
off, as a successful Vor wife again.

The Professora is confused and concerned, then reassured and amused.
She's absolutely on Miles's side (and Ekaterin's) - she never thought he'd
make that kind of move. Yet. And, maybe for a second, a teeny bit worried
that Ekaterin would settle for Alexei.

Ekaterin's mind travels a looooong way. A proposal; it's MILES!  How
shocking - how nice - he's fascinating. She finally admits to herself that she
DOES have some intense erotic reactions. To him. She was totally tamped
down when she was with Tien (and, let's face it, this is her first romance.
Her first love.) It's sad that so much still goes back to Tien - what she had to
do to please him, or survive with him. How much of herself was blocked.
But a proposal from Miles.. If that baba had come from Miles, she'd have
said yes. She'd have given him curry later for not speaking to her first, but
she'd have accepted. With some excitement. Or.. wait... was the garden a
lie, did he only do that to get close to her (Yes, he did, but he does truly
admire her work.) By the time the poor woman leaves for work she's
probably emotionally exhausted, she's travelled a long way, accepted a
new reality about herself and her feelings, and recognised her passion.

Scenes We'd Like To See: The baba giving Alexei a firm 'no'. Tactfully.

From wawenri at msn.com  Sun Apr 24 11:13:58 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 10:13:58 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: List Info
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844943CB690FA0D831EFA40CEF99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.2181.1650778786.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844943CB690FA0D831EFA40CEF99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB4847EEAC9CC929046DA7F6C5B4F99@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

And now for question for the list:
Just as I was about to go to bed last night, I got a long text from my XDIL, saying how nasty my son Steven, Gayle, and I was for not texting her about the recital. Gayle had texted her on Friday that she and Hazel had bought a new dress. She had already contacted the girl's music teacher that she was planning to go.
She never told me why she didn't show up. Now, it seems to be my fault that she wasn't there.
I walk on eggshells around her since she has threatened to cut me off from the girls.
Was I wrong for not texting her when she didn't show up?

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.

________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2022 2:41:31 AM
To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: [LMB] List Info

From: WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com>

Hazel and Anna had their Spring piano concert tonight. Anna played Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious and Extra Special Day.Hazel played Sea Voyage and Arabian Dance.
They did great!
William A Wenrich

Gwynne: I'm so glad for them!  Big congratulations to you all!
--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=05%7C01%7C%7Cd92c6a691c6b45133adf08da25ce439d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637863865075145351%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=tkl4U48SxaCrscrv%2FdUtVSjUZ7RCYlECQur9Q1sfD2c%3D&amp;reserved=0

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 24 12:09:19 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 11:09:19 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: List Info
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1650798001.663.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1650798001.663.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384404698697B3DCABB72485CEF99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com>

And now for question for the list:
Just as I was about to go to bed last night, I got a long text from my XDIL, saying how nasty my son Steven, Gayle, and I was for not texting her about the recital. Gayle had texted her on Friday that she and Hazel had bought a new dress. She had already contacted the girl's music teacher that she was planning to go.
She never told me why she didn't show up. Now, it seems to be my fault that she wasn't there.
I walk on eggshells around her since she has threatened to cut me off from the girls.
Was I wrong for not texting her when she didn't show up?
William A Wenrich

Gwynne: You're probably going to be wrong no matter what you do.
Don't reply to her, it only gives more ammunition. She might be feeling
guilty about not turning up, so it has to be someone else's fault. Just
keep on being polite, say as little as possible and keep it bland and
pleasant. She might have other problems in her life, so she takes it out
on the safest people, the ones who can't or won't fight back.

From huntkc at gmail.com  Sun Apr 24 13:05:03 2022
From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 08:05:03 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Update re son
Message-ID: <CABsO85m=3R9=FmM51St0A4dc8MaPHnH0qrSgeVNb1AKrb3B_DA@mail.gmail.com>

My son is home from the hospital. The tumor was very large but preliminary
results say benign.
He's regaining the ability to use the left side of his body, currently his
main troubles are weakness (not muscles, but brain connection to muscles)
in ankle and foot, loss of sensation below the knee, and poor balance. He
is expected to continue to recover, possibly fully.

0/10 do not recommend this ride.
10/10 hope

Karen Hunt

From kawyle at att.net  Sun Apr 24 13:11:57 2022
From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 12:11:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] OT: Update re son
In-Reply-To: <CABsO85m=3R9=FmM51St0A4dc8MaPHnH0qrSgeVNb1AKrb3B_DA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABsO85m=3R9=FmM51St0A4dc8MaPHnH0qrSgeVNb1AKrb3B_DA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1701395059.568670.1650802317565@mail.yahoo.com>

 Thank you for the update! That's a ride where the ticket you buy is a lottery, and the winners don't have to get on at all (yet).
Hoping with you --
(other) Karen (A. Wyle)
    On Sunday, April 24, 2022, 08:05:27 AM EDT, Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:  
 
 My son is home from the hospital. The tumor was very large but preliminary
results say benign.
He's regaining the ability to use the left side of his body, currently his
main troubles are weakness (not muscles, but brain connection to muscles)
in ankle and foot, loss of sensation below the knee, and poor balance. He
is expected to continue to recover, possibly fully.

0/10 do not recommend this ride.
10/10 hope

Karen Hunt
-- 
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
  

From saffronrose at me.com  Sun Apr 24 13:52:23 2022
From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 05:52:23 -0700
Subject: [LMB] OT: Update re son
In-Reply-To: <CABsO85m=3R9=FmM51St0A4dc8MaPHnH0qrSgeVNb1AKrb3B_DA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABsO85m=3R9=FmM51St0A4dc8MaPHnH0qrSgeVNb1AKrb3B_DA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5944BF28-4C28-42D8-B2B3-AB9A1630EFAB@me.com>

On Apr 24, 2022, at 5:05 AM, Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ?My son is home from the hospital. The tumor was very large but preliminary
> results say benign.
> He's regaining the ability to use the left side of his body, currently his
> main troubles are weakness (not muscles, but brain connection to muscles)
> in ankle and foot, loss of sensation below the knee, and poor balance. He
> is expected to continue to recover, possibly fully.
> 
> 0/10 do not recommend this ride.
> 10/10 hope

I was thinking I should ask for an update. I?m glad the tumor?s benign. I?ll send energy towards a full recovery by the September or the end of the year.

A. Marina Fournier
saffronrose at me.com
Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e
Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA
Sent from iFionnghuala

From wawenri at msn.com  Sun Apr 24 14:38:52 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 13:38:52 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: Update re son
In-Reply-To: <5944BF28-4C28-42D8-B2B3-AB9A1630EFAB@me.com>
References: <CABsO85m=3R9=FmM51St0A4dc8MaPHnH0qrSgeVNb1AKrb3B_DA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5944BF28-4C28-42D8-B2B3-AB9A1630EFAB@me.com>
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB4847AF1AB9907B10608DAFA8B4F99@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

Thanks for the update. We all like to hear good news.

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.

________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2022 6:52:23 AM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Cc: A. Marina Fournier <saffronrose at me.com>
Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Update re son

On Apr 24, 2022, at 5:05 AM, Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?My son is home from the hospital. The tumor was very large but preliminary
> results say benign.
> He's regaining the ability to use the left side of his body, currently his
> main troubles are weakness (not muscles, but brain connection to muscles)
> in ankle and foot, loss of sensation below the knee, and poor balance. He
> is expected to continue to recover, possibly fully.
>
> 0/10 do not recommend this ride.
> 10/10 hope

I was thinking I should ask for an update. I?m glad the tumor?s benign. I?ll send energy towards a full recovery by the September or the end of the year.

A. Marina Fournier
saffronrose at me.com
Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e
Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA
Sent from iFionnghuala
--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=05%7C01%7C%7Cc30515346b444f22d02a08da25f14ee0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637864015587850383%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=WwKWdDy58aSqcXIU7iY2c4hVdAIxuRcY1QklC1Ff4IE%3D&amp;reserved=0

From domelouann at gmail.com  Sun Apr 24 15:56:45 2022
From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 09:56:45 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Update re son
In-Reply-To: <CO3PR18MB4847AF1AB9907B10608DAFA8B4F99@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CABsO85m=3R9=FmM51St0A4dc8MaPHnH0qrSgeVNb1AKrb3B_DA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5944BF28-4C28-42D8-B2B3-AB9A1630EFAB@me.com>
 <CO3PR18MB4847AF1AB9907B10608DAFA8B4F99@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAGqU+djn1XPw1iecMFPMSe6H9V1_Qms=Pojbpr2_dUZVrAQm6Q@mail.gmail.com>

> On Apr 24, 2022, at 5:05 AM, Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > ?My son is home from the hospital. The tumor was very large but
> preliminary
> > results say benign.
> > He's regaining the ability to use the left side of his body, currently
> his
> > main troubles are weakness (not muscles, but brain connection to muscles)
> > in ankle and foot, loss of sensation below the knee, and poor balance. He
> > is expected to continue to recover, possibly fully.
>
> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=05%7C01%7C%7Cc30515346b444f22d02a08da25f14ee0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637864015587850383%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=WwKWdDy58aSqcXIU7iY2c4hVdAIxuRcY1QklC1Ff4IE%3D&amp;reserved=0>


Excellent news! We're so happy for all of you.

Louann

From proto at panix.com  Sun Apr 24 16:25:22 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 11:25:22 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign Ch 8 - Part 1 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38448B4C1493F7110D4F1594CEF99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.2183.1650792302.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38448B4C1493F7110D4F1594CEF99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <C098883E-9518-4E7D-BEC5-D2F9025DDB50@panix.com>



> On Apr 24, 2022, at 5:34 AM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> So many things happening in one conversation.
> 
> Rosalie is prattling on happily about Ekaterin being nicely married
> off, as a successful Vor wife again.
> 

<:snip< This post demonstrates that Cleopatra was not the only Queen of DeNile.

We have seen and will see that Mark Anthony was not the only King of DeNile.

From a_neff at bellsouth.net  Sun Apr 24 16:38:04 2022
From: a_neff at bellsouth.net (Ann Neff)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 11:38:04 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Subject: Re:  A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844DE41D4AF0F003DD12DC2CEF99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.2181.1650778786.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844DE41D4AF0F003DD12DC2CEF99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <000e01d857f1$4afae0c0$e0f0a240$@bellsouth.net>

I think the fish not being aware of water analogy definitely works for
Miles' expectations of being assisted.

I just remembered that my son was friends in high school with a real life
Miles-type who was born with congenital amputation -- his arms ended at his
elbows, and his legs at his knees, no hands or feet. Like Miles, his parents
were able to give him the support he needed.  Unlike Miles, the school's
athletic department was more accepting (it didn't hurt that his uncle was
the principal, but that isn't mentioned in the bio).  He too is
ultra-driven, successful, and in his mid 30's.


-----Original Message-----


Gwynne: Yes, Miles takes people for granted, he takes their help for
granted. And he especially takes Ivan for granted.

But, to be fair, I wonder if it relates to his childhood. He spent all of
his childhood with high medical needs. And there were always people helping
him and tending to him. Perhaps he developed a kind of filter, to ignore the
physical treatments, and let his mind jump on to other things. And having
people look after him was his normal; it was right and expected that people
would do what he needed. It can take a really long time to get past the
mindsets you pick up in childhood.
--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to a_neff at bellsouth.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold


From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sun Apr 24 17:14:03 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 16:14:03 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: Update re son
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2185.1650814693.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2185.1650814693.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384431AB9E45BEE0FB254759CEF99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com>

My son is home from the hospital. The tumor was very large but preliminary
results say benign.
He's regaining the ability to use the left side of his body, currently his
main troubles are weakness (not muscles, but brain connection to muscles)
in ankle and foot, loss of sensation below the knee, and poor balance. He
is expected to continue to recover, possibly fully.
0/10 do not recommend this ride.
10/10 hope
Karen Hunt

Gwynne: I'm so pleased that he's doing well!  Hugs to all of you.

From ravenclaweric at gmail.com  Sun Apr 24 18:19:33 2022
From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 12:19:33 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Update re son
In-Reply-To: <CAGqU+djn1XPw1iecMFPMSe6H9V1_Qms=Pojbpr2_dUZVrAQm6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABsO85m=3R9=FmM51St0A4dc8MaPHnH0qrSgeVNb1AKrb3B_DA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5944BF28-4C28-42D8-B2B3-AB9A1630EFAB@me.com>
 <CO3PR18MB4847AF1AB9907B10608DAFA8B4F99@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAGqU+djn1XPw1iecMFPMSe6H9V1_Qms=Pojbpr2_dUZVrAQm6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO7QBz_35i6b0C4Cz7PmYtJtKnJ6McJ_5LPeCsvuw-zkeVL6tg@mail.gmail.com>

Glad to hear that the news is as  good as it is, and I hope for a full and
complete recovery.

On Sun, Apr 24, 2022 at 9:57 AM Louann Miller <domelouann at gmail.com> wrote:

> > On Apr 24, 2022, at 5:05 AM, Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > ?My son is home from the hospital. The tumor was very large but
> > preliminary
> > > results say benign.
> > > He's regaining the ability to use the left side of his body, currently
> > his
> > > main troubles are weakness (not muscles, but brain connection to
> muscles)
> > > in ankle and foot, loss of sensation below the knee, and poor balance.
> He
> > > is expected to continue to recover, possibly fully.
> >
> > <
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=05%7C01%7C%7Cc30515346b444f22d02a08da25f14ee0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637864015587850383%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=WwKWdDy58aSqcXIU7iY2c4hVdAIxuRcY1QklC1Ff4IE%3D&amp;reserved=0
> >
>
>
> Excellent news! We're so happy for all of you.
>
> Louann
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From litalex at gmail.com  Sun Apr 24 18:24:18 2022
From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 13:24:18 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Update re son
In-Reply-To: <CABsO85m=3R9=FmM51St0A4dc8MaPHnH0qrSgeVNb1AKrb3B_DA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABsO85m=3R9=FmM51St0A4dc8MaPHnH0qrSgeVNb1AKrb3B_DA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FEC9DD32-4E43-4B10-911C-B02C9FE08AD4@gmail.com>

Hello,

> On Apr 24, 2022, at 08:05, Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> My son is home from the hospital. The tumor was very large but preliminary
> results say benign.
> He's regaining the ability to use the left side of his body, currently his
> main troubles are weakness (not muscles, but brain connection to muscles)
> in ankle and foot, loss of sensation below the knee, and poor balance. He
> is expected to continue to recover, possibly fully.
> 
> 0/10 do not recommend this ride.
> 10/10 hope

That?s very good news. Hope he completely recovers soon.

little Alex

From fred.fredex at gmail.com  Sun Apr 24 18:38:47 2022
From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 13:38:47 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Update re son
In-Reply-To: <CABsO85m=3R9=FmM51St0A4dc8MaPHnH0qrSgeVNb1AKrb3B_DA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABsO85m=3R9=FmM51St0A4dc8MaPHnH0qrSgeVNb1AKrb3B_DA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF2xExsyK6hqW-Z-tihM_9YcVoCzz3nEbNtH9vhME0sF+xdJug@mail.gmail.com>

The tumor was very large but preliminary
results say benign.

it may be "benign" in the sense that it isn't cancer, but brain tumors
aren't benign in the sense that they aren't harmful, because they *are *
harmful.

A fairly common "benign" brain tumor is meningioma. I know of a few people
who have had them, and they mess up one's functioning badly, and even after
removal it can be a very long recovery period. My former dentist had one,
and was told that by the time he had gone to an ER, that he was probably
within hours of death.

So, I'm happy your son's was removable (whatever type it was) and that his
outlook is bright!

Fred

On Sun, Apr 24, 2022 at 8:05 AM Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:

> My son is home from the hospital. The tumor was very large but preliminary
> results say benign.
> He's regaining the ability to use the left side of his body, currently his
> main troubles are weakness (not muscles, but brain connection to muscles)
> in ankle and foot, loss of sensation below the knee, and poor balance. He
> is expected to continue to recover, possibly fully.
>
> 0/10 do not recommend this ride.
> 10/10 hope
>
> Karen Hunt
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From fred.fredex at gmail.com  Sun Apr 24 18:42:11 2022
From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 13:42:11 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <CAD6Rr-y-S2tYkFoLSirYDLKe6ZaEzJca1gYpePmwN9QEfy8KPA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844614C8D720A4BD9B8EE69CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <DB8D99E0-DB12-4A1C-8E92-08F0C6F4281E@hamilton.edu>
 <VI1PR04MB56323DDF0AE0B421B21212DAFEF79@VI1PR04MB5632.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <4793390C-A9B6-4EC2-88D0-F8F6AE427C46@brazee.net>
 <3267E07C-68FB-48D2-A9FF-D88EEF7A8568@panix.com>
 <CAD6Rr-y-S2tYkFoLSirYDLKe6ZaEzJca1gYpePmwN9QEfy8KPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF2xExssypib9pzWHdf28Cc0SyMhPQ9ax5iZaBk5pEqiCBrv2Q@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, my memory for names I've heard only once, unlike Ivan's, is pretty
much nonexistent! (never mind that I've read/listened to CVA multiple
times.)

On Sun, Apr 24, 2022 at 1:39 AM Sylvia McIvers <sylviamcivers at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 23, 2022 at 5:49 AM WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com>
> wrote:
>
> > > Yeah, isn?t about time that we read a novel about Ivan?
> > Indeed, I don?t remember do a group read of CVA.
> >
>
>  We've done it, but not in a long while.
> +1 to anyone who can list all of Tej's names (in order!) without looking it
> up.
>
> Sylvia
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From howard at brazee.net  Sun Apr 24 18:50:13 2022
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 11:50:13 -0600
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <CAF2xExssypib9pzWHdf28Cc0SyMhPQ9ax5iZaBk5pEqiCBrv2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844614C8D720A4BD9B8EE69CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <DB8D99E0-DB12-4A1C-8E92-08F0C6F4281E@hamilton.edu>
 <VI1PR04MB56323DDF0AE0B421B21212DAFEF79@VI1PR04MB5632.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <4793390C-A9B6-4EC2-88D0-F8F6AE427C46@brazee.net>
 <3267E07C-68FB-48D2-A9FF-D88EEF7A8568@panix.com>
 <CAD6Rr-y-S2tYkFoLSirYDLKe6ZaEzJca1gYpePmwN9QEfy8KPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF2xExssypib9pzWHdf28Cc0SyMhPQ9ax5iZaBk5pEqiCBrv2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <12576618-4B6F-4825-91C7-984BA4357AB7@brazee.net>



> On Apr 24, 2022, at 11:42 AM, Fred <fred.fredex at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Sorry, my memory for names I've heard only once, unlike Ivan's, is pretty
> much nonexistent! (never mind that I've read/listened to CVA multiple
> times.)

Yep.  I carry my wife?s name in my wallet, just in case.

From proto at panix.com  Sun Apr 24 19:20:14 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 14:20:14 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <CAF2xExssypib9pzWHdf28Cc0SyMhPQ9ax5iZaBk5pEqiCBrv2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1650625201.16919.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844614C8D720A4BD9B8EE69CEF79@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <DB8D99E0-DB12-4A1C-8E92-08F0C6F4281E@hamilton.edu>
 <VI1PR04MB56323DDF0AE0B421B21212DAFEF79@VI1PR04MB5632.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <4793390C-A9B6-4EC2-88D0-F8F6AE427C46@brazee.net>
 <3267E07C-68FB-48D2-A9FF-D88EEF7A8568@panix.com>
 <CAD6Rr-y-S2tYkFoLSirYDLKe6ZaEzJca1gYpePmwN9QEfy8KPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF2xExssypib9pzWHdf28Cc0SyMhPQ9ax5iZaBk5pEqiCBrv2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D85BA61-055B-4561-9FA8-7ABDF7756796@panix.com>



> On Apr 24, 2022, at 1:42 PM, Fred <fred.fredex at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Sorry, my memory for names I've heard only once, unlike Ivan's, is pretty
> much nonexistent! (never mind that I've read/listened to CVA multiple
> times.)

Ivan had real live motivation, and a similar genetic background to Miles?s.

Just because he had to hide his feck (mostly) doesn?t mean he is feckless.

?
The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret. ? Terry Pratchett, The Truth


From sylviamcivers at gmail.com  Sun Apr 24 20:07:39 2022
From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 15:07:39 -0400
Subject: [LMB] List Info
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844943CB690FA0D831EFA40CEF99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.2181.1650778786.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844943CB690FA0D831EFA40CEF99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAD6Rr-z_BsyTjk6SzBOfscGnNNOqwpb1EknNn=E28uMd3wKv4Q@mail.gmail.com>

>  From: WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com>
>
> Hazel and Anna had their Spring piano concert tonight. Anna played
> Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious and Extra Special Day.Hazel played Sea
> Voyage and Arabian Dance.
> They did great!
> William A Wenrich
>


Those are fun songs!  how much practice did they do at home - and were you
able to sit in for any of that?

Sylvia, who likes looking at How Art Is Made

From huntkc at gmail.com  Sun Apr 24 20:24:37 2022
From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 15:24:37 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Update re son
In-Reply-To: <CAF2xExsyK6hqW-Z-tihM_9YcVoCzz3nEbNtH9vhME0sF+xdJug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABsO85m=3R9=FmM51St0A4dc8MaPHnH0qrSgeVNb1AKrb3B_DA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF2xExsyK6hqW-Z-tihM_9YcVoCzz3nEbNtH9vhME0sF+xdJug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABsO85mWPXG1rjWjbOcd8kJy6=ob90W-c5vSZ48FALwHtP7PKA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 24, 2022 at 1:39 PM Fred <fred.fredex at gmail.com> wrote:

> The tumor was very large but preliminary
> results say benign.
>
> it may be "benign" in the sense that it isn't cancer, but brain tumors
> aren't benign in the sense that they aren't harmful, because they *are *
> harmful.
>
> A fairly common "benign" brain tumor is meningioma. I know of a few people
> who have had them, and they mess up one's functioning badly, and even after
> removal it can be a very long recovery period. My former dentist had one,
> and was told that by the time he had gone to an ER, that he was probably
> within hours of death.
>

Yes, meningioma is what this was. He's young (particularly for getting this
problem),
so recovery is expected to be quicker than average. His troubles on left
side and his
headaches+nausea were getting bad, but COVID (and balky insurance company)
delayed him getting an MRI
that would have diagnosed it, so discovery of it consisted of him having a
seizure at work.
Could have been worse - could have happened while he was driving.

A bit was left behind because it had infiltrated the brain sinus vein. So
we're hoping the trouble doesn't recur.


>
> So, I'm happy your son's was removable (whatever type it was) and that his
> outlook is bright!
>

Me too.

From sylviamcivers at gmail.com  Sun Apr 24 20:35:25 2022
From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 15:35:25 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 8
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844E2C875A5A6C3D7DDC4CDCEF99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.2181.1650778786.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E2C875A5A6C3D7DDC4CDCEF99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAD6Rr-w50PdMOqMLUcAcZe61a9o3fLZXL4UhN8x9=WYVHdN=yw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 24, 2022 at 5:25 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Ick, he's a mutie. But... we... with replicators you wouldn't have
> to have any contact with him. And you'd be a Countess one day.
> But ... no, you're not that desperate. (Rosalie is busy carrying both
> sides of the conversation while Ekaterin recovers.)
>  ...
>   Rosalie bristles with suspicion: is the mutie lord bothering
> her? If so, she'll set Hugo onto him. Or.. .since Hugo might not
> be delighted at the idea... she'll give him a piece of her mind herself.
> (Place of women in Barrayaran society? Rosalie has no hesitation
> in taking on a Count's heir and Auditor if necessary. And she's
> sure she'll win.)
>

Place of women on Barrayar:  guarding the genome.  Keeping a mutie away
from an eligible widow is her right and her duty, count or no count.
Emperor's nepotistic favorite, eep - but she has the full force and power
of society on her side.  A thousand stories, from Shakespeare to "pot of
basil", are on Rosalie's side.

Generationally, are Rosalie, Ekaterine & Harra the same age?  And the
Professora & Harra's Ma are the same, too.  Gives you some perspective,
there.

Harra went to her Count to speak her piece because she knew her rights.
Rosalie will chin-up and go to the count's heir and speak her piece,
because she knows What Is Right.  Women obey their men, but guard the
purity of the future.

Men, on the other hand, are over awed by the trappings of power. Hugo won't
sass a count's hier, and Aral's gate guard wouldn't let a peasant into VorK
House.

From a_neff at bellsouth.net  Sun Apr 24 20:59:46 2022
From: a_neff at bellsouth.net (Ann Neff)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 15:59:46 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Horizon -- Snake ball
References: <002501d85815$d9556740$8c0035c0$.ref@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <002501d85815$d9556740$8c0035c0$@bellsouth.net>

These are only garter snakes, but still impressive - tens of thousands!

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/earthquest.org/permalink/5167496189984019/ 


From litalex at gmail.com  Sun Apr 24 21:36:53 2022
From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 16:36:53 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Horizon -- Snake ball
In-Reply-To: <002501d85815$d9556740$8c0035c0$@bellsouth.net>
References: <002501d85815$d9556740$8c0035c0$.ref@bellsouth.net>
 <002501d85815$d9556740$8c0035c0$@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <44A3CC72-4902-47FC-9216-2BC38873426A@gmail.com>

Hello,

> On Apr 24, 2022, at 15:59, Ann Neff <a_neff at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> 
> These are only garter snakes, but still impressive - tens of thousands!
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/earthquest.org/permalink/5167496189984019/ 

Eeeek!

I told myself I shouldn?t click it, but couldn?t resist. Sigh.

little Alex

From fishman at panix.com  Sun Apr 24 21:43:56 2022
From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 20:43:56 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Horizon -- Snake ball
In-Reply-To: <002501d85815$d9556740$8c0035c0$@bellsouth.net>
References: <002501d85815$d9556740$8c0035c0$.ref@bellsouth.net>
 <002501d85815$d9556740$8c0035c0$@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <em8c3d00ab-579b-4c24-b165-7d098c752633@desktop-ckcgfo5>

Shades of Indiana Jones. ;-)

Harvey

------ Original Message ------
From: "Ann Neff" <a_neff at bellsouth.net>
To: "Lois Bujold mailing list" <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Bcc: fishman at panix.com
Sent: 4/24/2022 3:59:46 PM
Subject: [LMB] Horizon -- Snake ball

>These are only garter snakes, but still impressive - tens of thousands!
>
>
>
>https://www.facebook.com/groups/earthquest.org/permalink/5167496189984019/
>
>--
>Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com
>Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
>http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold



From margdean56 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 24 22:30:24 2022
From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 15:30:24 -0600
Subject: [LMB] Horizon -- Snake ball
In-Reply-To: <em8c3d00ab-579b-4c24-b165-7d098c752633@desktop-ckcgfo5>
References: <002501d85815$d9556740$8c0035c0$.ref@bellsouth.net>
 <002501d85815$d9556740$8c0035c0$@bellsouth.net>
 <em8c3d00ab-579b-4c24-b165-7d098c752633@desktop-ckcgfo5>
Message-ID: <CAD2gbLin6ytcdMq=Up2Zrjm4obM6EeL4pTAEQ=W1y43PCe_VPA@mail.gmail.com>

Looked cool to me, but then, I'm a herpetophile. I had one of these -- some
species of garter snake, anyway -- for a pet for a while, when I was seven.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean56 at gmail.com>


On Sun, Apr 24, 2022 at 2:44 PM Harvey Fishman <fishman at panix.com> wrote:

> Shades of Indiana Jones. ;-)
>
> Harvey
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Ann Neff" <a_neff at bellsouth.net>
> To: "Lois Bujold mailing list" <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
> Bcc: fishman at panix.com
> Sent: 4/24/2022 3:59:46 PM
> Subject: [LMB] Horizon -- Snake ball
>
> >These are only garter snakes, but still impressive - tens of thousands!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/earthquest.org/permalink/5167496189984019/
> >
> >--
> >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com
> >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to margdean56 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From wawenri at msn.com  Mon Apr 25 01:31:19 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 00:31:19 +0000
Subject: [LMB] List Info
In-Reply-To: <CAD6Rr-z_BsyTjk6SzBOfscGnNNOqwpb1EknNn=E28uMd3wKv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2181.1650778786.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844943CB690FA0D831EFA40CEF99@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAD6Rr-z_BsyTjk6SzBOfscGnNNOqwpb1EknNn=E28uMd3wKv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB4847E8E53FA1C578FFA03461B4F89@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

I?m there for all of their instruction. Their teacher, Miss Penny, is a genius in teaching children who have problems keeping still or on task, which includes Hazel.

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.

________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Sylvia McIvers <sylviamcivers at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2022 1:07:39 PM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [LMB] List Info

>  From: WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com>
>
> Hazel and Anna had their Spring piano concert tonight. Anna played
> Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious and Extra Special Day.Hazel played Sea
> Voyage and Arabian Dance.
> They did great!
> William A Wenrich
>


Those are fun songs!  how much practice did they do at home - and were you
able to sit in for any of that?

Sylvia, who likes looking at How Art Is Made
--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=05%7C01%7C%7C81e839f2d4e14ee42bd908da2625c041%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637864240823478875%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=lUMIG%2BwictQgXaJNpHNDQy8RGiSoTuWkUncJx9iVnfc%3D&amp;reserved=0

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 25 03:44:52 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 02:44:52 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2190.1650827278.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2190.1650827278.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844E735353DF1E18035233CCEF89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com>

Ivan had real live motivation, and a similar genetic background to Miles?s.
Just because he had to hide his feck (mostly) doesn?t mean he is feckless.

Gwynne: The family's incredible blindness about Ivan always irritates me,
that's one reason I'm always on his side. Even ImpSec admire Ivan's Teflon
qualities, and the way he's navigated his whole life through the political
dangers of his position, and life in Vorbarr Sultana. He was the Viable
Alternative to Gregor for the first thirty years of his life, and in that time he
made NO political mistakes. He was never drawn into a plot, used as a
figurehead, seen as a threat. Never. Miles was flat-out guilty of treason
several times, he did so much wrong, but everyone has to protect Miles.
Nobody protected Ivan. Nobody ever congratulate him, or even noticed,
that he was brilliantly successful and NOT being any kind of problem for
Gregor. The family are the most politically savvy people on the planet but
they never seem to realise how incredibly smart Ivan has been.

Ok, done.

Just a warning; if we DO get to a CVA reread here, be prepared.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Mon Apr 25 04:10:34 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:10:34 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 8
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2201.1650854703.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2201.1650854703.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844314124BB4E9EFDD270E7CEF89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Sylvia McIvers <sylviamcivers at gmail.com>


Place of women on Barrayar:  guarding the genome.  Keeping a mutie away
from an eligible widow is her right and her duty, count or no count.
Emperor's nepotistic favorite, eep - but she has the full force and power
of society on her side.  A thousand stories, from Shakespeare to "pot of
basil", are on Rosalie's side.

Gwynne: It's far more complex than people outside Barrayar can appreciate.
Yes, women don't take certain oaths, etc. But they also have responsibilities
and rights - such as the ones we see here. Rosalie doesn't hesitate to offer
her protection to Ekaterin - and she'd front Miles in a second if she thought she
needed to. Women on Barrayar run a lot of the small businesses, make up most
of the lawyers, get an education. Yes there are a lot of limits, but there's a lot of
options, too: Susan Allegre is one of the top people at the Science Institute,
Aunt Vorthys is a university professor.
It's like the armsmen: in the Nexus they see them as some kind of servant, but
it's far more complex. Yes, Roic takes orders from Miles, but he also stands
over him to make him use the neural regulator.
There's a comment in one of the early books about how Barrayar is structured
by relationships and people, and it's true - there's a very complex network of
rights and responsibilities going on - and we see examples of the best and the
worst of it.

From rgmolpus at flash.net  Mon Apr 25 06:45:03 2022
From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 05:45:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844E735353DF1E18035233CCEF89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.2190.1650827278.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E735353DF1E18035233CCEF89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <1003163462.718188.1650865503460@mail.yahoo.com>

 One of these days, with Ivan away from VBS, someone important will say/think 'This would be perfect for Iva - oh, damn, He's half the nexus away!'

    On Sunday, April 24, 2022, 09:45:12 PM CDT, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:  
 
 From: WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com>

Ivan had real live motivation, and a similar genetic background to Miles?s.
Just because he had to hide his feck (mostly) doesn?t mean he is feckless.

Gwynne: The family's incredible blindness about Ivan always irritates me,
that's one reason I'm always on his side. Even ImpSec admire Ivan's Teflon
qualities, and the way he's navigated his whole life through the political
dangers of his position, and life in Vorbarr Sultana. He was the Viable
Alternative to Gregor for the first thirty years of his life, and in that time he
made NO political mistakes. He was never drawn into a plot, used as a
figurehead, seen as a threat. Never. Miles was flat-out guilty of treason
several times, he did so much wrong, but everyone has to protect Miles.
Nobody protected Ivan. Nobody ever congratulate him, or even noticed,
that he was brilliantly successful and NOT being any kind of problem for
Gregor. The family are the most politically savvy people on the planet but
they never seem to realise how incredibly smart Ivan has been.

Ok, done.

Just a warning; if we DO get to a CVA reread here, be prepared.
-- 
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
  

From fred.fredex at gmail.com  Mon Apr 25 14:45:00 2022
From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 09:45:00 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <1003163462.718188.1650865503460@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.2190.1650827278.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E735353DF1E18035233CCEF89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <1003163462.718188.1650865503460@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAF2xExs7vOJFKNUym9bpR2w_WTX=MTP4iMr3dhwcyGK9-3mecQ@mail.gmail.com>

I like the fanfic (whose name and author I can't remember) where Ivan is
made a count by Gregor (and, I assume but don't remember) the council of
counts. It shows Ivan's abilities!

Fred

On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 1:45 AM Richard Molpus <rgmolpus at flash.net> wrote:

>  One of these days, with Ivan away from VBS, someone important will
> say/think 'This would be perfect for Iva - oh, damn, He's half the nexus
> away!'
>
>     On Sunday, April 24, 2022, 09:45:12 PM CDT, Gwynne Powell <
> gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>  From: WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com>
>
> Ivan had real live motivation, and a similar genetic background to Miles?s.
> Just because he had to hide his feck (mostly) doesn?t mean he is feckless.
>
> Gwynne: The family's incredible blindness about Ivan always irritates me,
> that's one reason I'm always on his side. Even ImpSec admire Ivan's Teflon
> qualities, and the way he's navigated his whole life through the political
> dangers of his position, and life in Vorbarr Sultana. He was the Viable
> Alternative to Gregor for the first thirty years of his life, and in that
> time he
> made NO political mistakes. He was never drawn into a plot, used as a
> figurehead, seen as a threat. Never. Miles was flat-out guilty of treason
> several times, he did so much wrong, but everyone has to protect Miles.
> Nobody protected Ivan. Nobody ever congratulate him, or even noticed,
> that he was brilliantly successful and NOT being any kind of problem for
> Gregor. The family are the most politically savvy people on the planet but
> they never seem to realise how incredibly smart Ivan has been.
>
> Ok, done.
>
> Just a warning; if we DO get to a CVA reread here, be prepared.
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From ravenclaweric at gmail.com  Mon Apr 25 16:14:20 2022
From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 10:14:20 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <CAF2xExs7vOJFKNUym9bpR2w_WTX=MTP4iMr3dhwcyGK9-3mecQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2190.1650827278.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E735353DF1E18035233CCEF89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <1003163462.718188.1650865503460@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAF2xExs7vOJFKNUym9bpR2w_WTX=MTP4iMr3dhwcyGK9-3mecQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO7QBz9eo7TEUWFuXLp3N9=UOf-XsefFVnr-F5wKeGLVKhbJTQ@mail.gmail.com>

That starts with "Another Innocent Bystander," by Rose Milburn.  It's over
at AO3.  There's a whole series of stories set in that AU.



On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 8:45 AM Fred <fred.fredex at gmail.com> wrote:

> I like the fanfic (whose name and author I can't remember) where Ivan is
> made a count by Gregor (and, I assume but don't remember) the council of
> counts. It shows Ivan's abilities!
>
> Fred
>
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 1:45 AM Richard Molpus <rgmolpus at flash.net> wrote:
>
> >  One of these days, with Ivan away from VBS, someone important will
> > say/think 'This would be perfect for Iva - oh, damn, He's half the nexus
> > away!'
> >
> >     On Sunday, April 24, 2022, 09:45:12 PM CDT, Gwynne Powell <
> > gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >  From: WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com>
> >
> > Ivan had real live motivation, and a similar genetic background to
> Miles?s.
> > Just because he had to hide his feck (mostly) doesn?t mean he is
> feckless.
> >
> > Gwynne: The family's incredible blindness about Ivan always irritates me,
> > that's one reason I'm always on his side. Even ImpSec admire Ivan's
> Teflon
> > qualities, and the way he's navigated his whole life through the
> political
> > dangers of his position, and life in Vorbarr Sultana. He was the Viable
> > Alternative to Gregor for the first thirty years of his life, and in that
> > time he
> > made NO political mistakes. He was never drawn into a plot, used as a
> > figurehead, seen as a threat. Never. Miles was flat-out guilty of treason
> > several times, he did so much wrong, but everyone has to protect Miles.
> > Nobody protected Ivan. Nobody ever congratulate him, or even noticed,
> > that he was brilliantly successful and NOT being any kind of problem for
> > Gregor. The family are the most politically savvy people on the planet
> but
> > they never seem to realise how incredibly smart Ivan has been.
> >
> > Ok, done.
> >
> > Just a warning; if we DO get to a CVA reread here, be prepared.
> > --
> > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net
> > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
> >
> > --
> > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com
> > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
> >
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From domelouann at gmail.com  Mon Apr 25 16:40:32 2022
From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 10:40:32 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <CAO7QBz9eo7TEUWFuXLp3N9=UOf-XsefFVnr-F5wKeGLVKhbJTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2190.1650827278.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E735353DF1E18035233CCEF89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <1003163462.718188.1650865503460@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAF2xExs7vOJFKNUym9bpR2w_WTX=MTP4iMr3dhwcyGK9-3mecQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO7QBz9eo7TEUWFuXLp3N9=UOf-XsefFVnr-F5wKeGLVKhbJTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGqU+di9K3gT8JiEzrTnarAoVxqvAZ5tYB=wfKbvD1So4WW7RQ@mail.gmail.com>

Which I find at
https://archiveofourown.org/works/13569879?view_full_work=true and which is
indeed a good long series. I'm looking forward to it.

On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 10:14 AM Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com> wrote:

> That starts with "Another Innocent Bystander," by Rose Milburn.  It's over
> at AO3.  There's a whole series of stories set in that AU.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 8:45 AM Fred <fred.fredex at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I like the fanfic (whose name and author I can't remember) where Ivan is
> > made a count by Gregor (and, I assume but don't remember) the council of
> > counts. It shows Ivan's abilities!
>
>

From wawenri at msn.com  Mon Apr 25 22:12:29 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 21:12:29 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Not for the squeamish
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB4847940CE2109AF38F789FE1B4F89@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

It looks like we won't have to go to Sergeyar to se an example of the worm plague.
Reference: https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/army-of-worm-larvae-hatch-from-mans-bum-visibly-slither-under-his-skin/

William A Wenrich
A sinner utterly dependent on the grace of God.




From saffronrose at me.com  Tue Apr 26 03:13:28 2022
From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier)
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 19:13:28 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Not for the squeamish
In-Reply-To: <CO3PR18MB4847940CE2109AF38F789FE1B4F89@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CO3PR18MB4847940CE2109AF38F789FE1B4F89@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <ED6A9440-CA82-439F-A570-E155FFC99656@me.com>

On Apr 25, 2022, at 2:12 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com> wrote:
> 
> ?It looks like we won't have to go to Sergeyar to se an example of the worm plague.
> Reference: https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/army-of-worm-larvae-hatch-from-mans-bum-visibly-slither-under-his-skin/

I?ve seen articles on this sort of thing a while ago. Definitely ick, I agree.

A. Marina Fournier
saffronrose at me.com
Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e
Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA
Sent from iFionnghuala

From moremoth at gmail.com  Tue Apr 26 06:15:50 2022
From: moremoth at gmail.com (Bill Welch)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 06:15:50 +0100
Subject: [LMB] Not for the squeamish
In-Reply-To: <ED6A9440-CA82-439F-A570-E155FFC99656@me.com>
References: <CO3PR18MB4847940CE2109AF38F789FE1B4F89@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
 <ED6A9440-CA82-439F-A570-E155FFC99656@me.com>
Message-ID: <CAB+qK4RyvE3zo+kjsNwWpdB4CH5EiUiksAmSGPg9Lv05S_rVCg@mail.gmail.com>

This is what ivermectin is for.

On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 at 03:13, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

> On Apr 25, 2022, at 2:12 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com> wrote:
> >
> > ?It looks like we won't have to go to Sergeyar to se an example of the
> worm plague.
> > Reference:
> https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/army-of-worm-larvae-hatch-from-mans-bum-visibly-slither-under-his-skin/
>
> I?ve seen articles on this sort of thing a while ago. Definitely ick, I
> agree.
>
> A. Marina Fournier
> saffronrose at me.com
> Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e
> Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA
> Sent from iFionnghuala
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to moremoth at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 26 06:39:38 2022
From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 00:39:38 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Not for the squeamish
In-Reply-To: <CAB+qK4RyvE3zo+kjsNwWpdB4CH5EiUiksAmSGPg9Lv05S_rVCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CO3PR18MB4847940CE2109AF38F789FE1B4F89@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
 <ED6A9440-CA82-439F-A570-E155FFC99656@me.com>
 <CAB+qK4RyvE3zo+kjsNwWpdB4CH5EiUiksAmSGPg9Lv05S_rVCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK6ahzaiUK3rZVYBz59D0e+45CLFT-gSijw2EZxT6CjwEPci=w@mail.gmail.com>

Well, that was pretty gross. Whenever I get diarrhea I'll think about
parasites in my bum.

On Tue, Apr 26, 2022, 12:16 AM Bill Welch <moremoth at gmail.com> wrote:

> This is what ivermectin is for.
>
> On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 at 03:13, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold <
> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 25, 2022, at 2:12 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > ?It looks like we won't have to go to Sergeyar to se an example of the
> > worm plague.
> > > Reference:
> >
> https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/army-of-worm-larvae-hatch-from-mans-bum-visibly-slither-under-his-skin/
> >
> > I?ve seen articles on this sort of thing a while ago. Definitely ick, I
> > agree.
> >
> > A. Marina Fournier
> > saffronrose at me.com
> > Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e
> > Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA
> > Sent from iFionnghuala
> > --
> > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to moremoth at gmail.com
> > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
> >
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 26 07:24:42 2022
From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 01:24:42 -0500
Subject: [LMB] OT: Update re son
In-Reply-To: <CABsO85mWPXG1rjWjbOcd8kJy6=ob90W-c5vSZ48FALwHtP7PKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABsO85m=3R9=FmM51St0A4dc8MaPHnH0qrSgeVNb1AKrb3B_DA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF2xExsyK6hqW-Z-tihM_9YcVoCzz3nEbNtH9vhME0sF+xdJug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABsO85mWPXG1rjWjbOcd8kJy6=ob90W-c5vSZ48FALwHtP7PKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK6ahzZuxFhBWB2Y-gbpm_cRDeNoJLjtRVY9VDrgw7+XcZBKNA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm glad your son is getting better. A tumor any tumor can be scary I'm
just glad his is benign and he can start to heal. My thoughts are with both
of you.

On Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:25 PM Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 24, 2022 at 1:39 PM Fred <fred.fredex at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The tumor was very large but preliminary
> > results say benign.
> >
> > it may be "benign" in the sense that it isn't cancer, but brain tumors
> > aren't benign in the sense that they aren't harmful, because they *are *
> > harmful.
> >
> > A fairly common "benign" brain tumor is meningioma. I know of a few
> people
> > who have had them, and they mess up one's functioning badly, and even
> after
> > removal it can be a very long recovery period. My former dentist had one,
> > and was told that by the time he had gone to an ER, that he was probably
> > within hours of death.
> >
>
> Yes, meningioma is what this was. He's young (particularly for getting this
> problem),
> so recovery is expected to be quicker than average. His troubles on left
> side and his
> headaches+nausea were getting bad, but COVID (and balky insurance company)
> delayed him getting an MRI
> that would have diagnosed it, so discovery of it consisted of him having a
> seizure at work.
> Could have been worse - could have happened while he was driving.
>
> A bit was left behind because it had infiltrated the brain sinus vein. So
> we're hoping the trouble doesn't recur.
>
>
> >
> > So, I'm happy your son's was removable (whatever type it was) and that
> his
> > outlook is bright!
> >
>
> Me too.
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From wembleyware at gmail.com  Tue Apr 26 07:42:37 2022
From: wembleyware at gmail.com (Sharon Micenko)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 14:42:37 +0800
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2232.1650954306.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2232.1650954306.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <D018CE11-704D-41B1-95F7-35D0ECA07C1D@gmail.com>

Fred wrote:
> I like the fanfic (whose name and author I can't remember) where Ivan is
> made a count by Gregor (and, I assume but don't remember) the council of
> counts. It shows Ivan's abilities!
> 
> Fred

Serialising Part 24 (!) As we speak. It?s all Gwen?s fault. She made me do it.

?The Emperor?s New Sinew?. (There?s another count in the family.)

https://archiveofourown.org/works/37808536/chapters/94401874 <https://archiveofourown.org/works/37808536/chapters/94401874>


Sharon


From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 26 17:08:39 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 16:08:39 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 8 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1650970801.9507.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1650970801.9507.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38445EE33EBD6E14E52B6A20CEFB9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



When I first read this book the dinner party was my main memory.
But now, after several rereads, I've come to realise how much humour
is in this book - it's got some marvellous lines, there's a lot of dry humour,
wordplay, ridiculous situations - there's a French farce hiding in here, too,
and some very clever lines as well.

And this part of the chapter is far more layered than I realised the first
time I read it.

So, Dono and Byerly turn up to see Gregor, with the loyal Szabo in tow.
And they stop by to say hello to Ivan - either to thank him or irritate him,
it's hard to tell with Vorrutyers. Ivan is knee-deep in Vor dragons, so even
Dono and By are worth a few minutes' escape. By and Dono are taking
this visit very seriously - they're not even sitting down as they wait for
Ivan - they don't want to wrinkle their best suits. Lady Alys's secretary
is giving Dono the glad eye; he looks good in discreet black with grey
piping. Szabo is wearing 'full Vorrutyer House Uniform' - I don't know if
that's an armsman's outfit, or just house livery. Is he allowed to dress
like an armsman when he isn't one? Or does the status last until the
new Count swears in new people?

Gregor's senior major-domo (he really is taking this visit seriously) turns
up to collect them - and Ivan too. On the list, in the Emperor's own
handwriting, are all four of them (and By is first; interesting.)

Gregor is not taken by surprise; his people have been busy. But still,
it's a good idea to show the respect of explaining things personally.

Gregor leans against his desk to survey them; a rather informal pose.

And now it starts: there's two conversations going on here. Dono
thanks Gregor for seeing him at short notice, Gregor agrees it's
short notice, and glances at By. (And we know why - NOW. This
book HAS to be read at least twice, to pick up the details you just
don't see the first time.)

They move to the couches, and sit less than comfortably: Szabo
tries to blend into the wallpaper and is forced to sit with the rest
of them. By tries to look comfortable. Ivan is forced to share a
couch with Dono (he's done that before, but not at all like this.)

Dono makes a good showing, explaining that Pierre hated Richars
and all the rest of them, wanted him/her to run things, and would
have been very pleased for his brother-as-is-now to be his heir.

There's some rather uncomfortable moments as Dono and Szabo
hurry to assure Gregor that nobody has been sworn in as armsmen,
they've just given their personal oaths. Personally. Not armsmanly.
Only the FORMER armsmen, the lawyer, and By knew what was
happening.

"Your loyalty to your cousin is most . . . notable, Byerly," murmured Gregor.

By eyed him warily. "Thank you, Sire."

"And your remarkable discretion. I do take note of it."

"It seemed a personal matter, Sire."

"I see. Do go on, Lord Dono."

And here's some of that OTHER discussion, which basically translates,
several times over, into 'Why the H*LL didn't you report this
AS YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO, agent Byerly????'

ImpSec had sent a man to, er, not spy on - just observe, when Donna
went to Beta. And somehow he managed to get hold of Dono's medical
reports - as Dono intended. Proof of the right DNA being used.
Interesting grounds - Dono is claiming that he has a better right, not that
Richars is a slimy unfit-to-breath-oxygen creep. And Dono has looked at
the numbers and is going to offer his future votes to the Progressives.
(Vorrutyers have apparently always voted Conservative, even if their
home lives weren't. But the Progressives have the numbers. Richars would
vote Conservative. So will the Progressives accept Dono for the sake of
the vote?) Of course, Gregor is neutral - but everyone knows he prefers
the Progressives. Dono is just asking for the chance to try, for Gregor
to let him run with it in a public debate, public vote. Oddly, Dono is
(sort of) playing by the old rules. Technically. Mostly.

Of course Dono will want a wedding invitation if he becomes Count. He
likes weddings - he had three of his/her own. He likes weddings even
more when he's not getting married.

Ivan has been working hard on invisibility throughout this. He practically
emits a blocking field.

Gregor wants to know what it's like. Dono finds that on Beta he wasn't
treated differently to Donna; Komarr was a bit different; Barrayar is a
totally new world. Personally he's full of energy, and libido (scary thought:
Donna wasn't exactly a blushing flower.) Win or lose, he won't change back.

They get a 'Let's see what happens.' And then they flee.

They thank Ivan, who tries really hard to deny all responsibility. Then
Dono tries to get a meeting with Lady Alys, but she's out harassing
florists. Ivan foolishly  mentions Miles's dinner party, and ends up with
Dono as a partner. And Ivan explains about Miles's odd courtship - well
everyone else in Vorbarr Sultana knows about it. By wants to see Rene
as well as Alys; the dinner party will be a happy hunting ground. Ivan
is torn between No-way-am-I-taking-you, and this-will-drive-Miles-crazy.

But of course, his evil side wins. Well, this is family after all - and if
you can't torment your family, wouldn't life be dull!


From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 26 17:14:38 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 16:14:38 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 8 Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1650970801.9507.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1650970801.9507.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38440BFB8859AE10D0AB0913CEFB9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



Gregor is good fun, as always. He skewers By, without giving
anything away to the others (or the reader, at this stage.)

There really wasn't a reason for Ivan to be there for the meeting
with Gregor; I really think that Gregor just likes to see him
squirm sometimes. Gregor includes Szabo as an active participant
in the meeting; once again we see the power of armsmen being
recognised. Dono manages the meeting well, By tries hard to look
cool. And isn't.

Dono is going to be really good at playing politics.

From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net  Tue Apr 26 17:55:57 2022
From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 09:55:57 -0700
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 8 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38445EE33EBD6E14E52B6A20CEFB9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1650970801.9507.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38445EE33EBD6E14E52B6A20CEFB9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <41C98F3C-84F0-41DE-B294-741A244928B6@comcast.net>



> On Apr 26, 2022, at 9:08 AM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> When I first read this book the dinner party was my main memory.
> But now, after several rereads, I've come to realise how much humour
> is in this book - it's got some marvellous lines, there's a lot of dry humour,
> wordplay, ridiculous situations - there's a French farce hiding in here, too,
> and some very clever lines as well.
> 
> 

(SNIP)

> 
> ImpSec had sent a man to, er, not spy on - just observe, when Donna
> went to Beta. 

Dono mentioned the ?nice ImpSec boy? - I have wondered if Donna visited said boy and stayed awhile on the night before she put herself through the transition surgery.

(SNIP)

> -- 
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to robert_a_woodward at comcast.net
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold



From lmblist at mikebomb.com  Tue Apr 26 18:27:56 2022
From: lmblist at mikebomb.com (Michael Bauminger)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 13:27:56 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Not for the squeamish
In-Reply-To: <CO3PR18MB4847940CE2109AF38F789FE1B4F89@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CO3PR18MB4847940CE2109AF38F789FE1B4F89@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <ba998aec-9313-b56f-aab3-6ed321db3fad@mikebomb.com>

On 4/25/2022 5:12 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote:
> It looks like we won't have to go to Sergeyar to se an example of the worm plague.
> Reference: https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/army-of-worm-larvae-hatch-from-mans-bum-visibly-slither-under-his-skin/

I remember in college when we were dissecting roundworms the instructors 
had us make sure to wear gloves and wash our hands after taking them 
off, even though the worms had been preserved in formaldehyde. He said 
there was no such thing as being too sure when it came to those worm eggs.
-- 
Michael

From howard at brazee.net  Tue Apr 26 19:46:49 2022
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 12:46:49 -0600
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 8 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38445EE33EBD6E14E52B6A20CEFB9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1650970801.9507.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38445EE33EBD6E14E52B6A20CEFB9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <C03609BC-C085-4023-B558-5FB284B76E69@brazee.net>



> On Apr 26, 2022, at 10:08 AM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> And now it starts: there's two conversations going on here. Dono
> thanks Gregor for seeing him at short notice, Gregor agrees it's
> short notice, and glances at By. (And we know why - NOW. This
> book HAS to be read at least twice, to pick up the details you just
> don't see the first time.)

Good point.

From sylviamcivers at gmail.com  Tue Apr 26 22:16:08 2022
From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 17:16:08 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844E735353DF1E18035233CCEF89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.2190.1650827278.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E735353DF1E18035233CCEF89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAD6Rr-zRKCf_RxE58fSCUUtbvCVR4QW==Au0Ej45E8fESzWiHA@mail.gmail.com>

>  From: WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com>
>
> Ivan had real live motivation, and a similar genetic background to Miles?s.
> Just because he had to hide his feck (mostly) doesn?t mean he is feckless.
>
> Oh, nice phrasing!


> Gwynne: The family's incredible blindness about Ivan always irritates me,
> that's one reason I'm always on his side.... The family are the most
> politically savvy people on the planet but they never seem to realise how
> incredibly smart Ivan has been.
>
> Just a warning; if we DO get to a CVA reread here, be prepared.
> --
>

Was that a warning or a temptation? *grin*
The only reason I don't own the book is the horrible back cover (and I
can't read e-books)

Sylvia

From margdean56 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 26 22:54:27 2022
From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 15:54:27 -0600
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <CAD6Rr-zRKCf_RxE58fSCUUtbvCVR4QW==Au0Ej45E8fESzWiHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2190.1650827278.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E735353DF1E18035233CCEF89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAD6Rr-zRKCf_RxE58fSCUUtbvCVR4QW==Au0Ej45E8fESzWiHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2gbLhrvEoA8og6wjeyzusWPiWbWbi+do-cXfO9VC7hA9NH=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 3:16 PM Sylvia McIvers <sylviamcivers at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> > Just a warning; if we DO get to a CVA reread here, be prepared.
> > --
> >
>
> Was that a warning or a temptation? *grin*
> The only reason I don't own the book is the horrible back cover (and I
> can't read e-books)
>

Couldn't you get a (used) hardcover copy, and just dispose of the dust
jacket if you dislike the cover art?


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean56 at gmail.com>

From maireg83 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 26 23:31:11 2022
From: maireg83 at gmail.com (Sue Nicholson)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 10:31:11 +1200
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844E735353DF1E18035233CCEF89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.2190.1650827278.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E735353DF1E18035233CCEF89@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAPiCpJdRr0u2oOAJA_0u_rUiM6o6Xs8D1h3w0JwnMJz6HRq+yA@mail.gmail.com>

Gwynne

> Just a warning; if we DO get to a CVA reread here, be prepared.
>
>
And of course that was what Tej and Ivan had in common because she was also
seriously under-appreciated by her family and also had none of the ambition
for things they valued.

SueN

From fishman at panix.com  Wed Apr 27 01:54:17 2022
From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 00:54:17 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <CAD6Rr-zRKCf_RxE58fSCUUtbvCVR4QW==Au0Ej45E8fESzWiHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2190.1650827278.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E735353DF1E18035233CCEF89@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAD6Rr-zRKCf_RxE58fSCUUtbvCVR4QW==Au0Ej45E8fESzWiHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <em772882d7-5b37-436e-b453-f163395e4c88@desktop-ckcgfo5>



------ Original Message ------
From: "Sylvia McIvers" <sylviamcivers at gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." 
<lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Bcc: fishman at panix.com
Sent: 4/26/2022 5:16:08 PM
Subject: Re: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2

>Was that a warning or a temptation? *grin*
>The only reason I don't own the book is the horrible back cover (and I
>can't read e-books)
>
>Sylvia
Why can't you read ebooks? You obviously have a computer and there are 
Kindle apps for both PC and Mac.

Harvey



From sylviamcivers at gmail.com  Wed Apr 27 19:15:58 2022
From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 14:15:58 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <em772882d7-5b37-436e-b453-f163395e4c88@desktop-ckcgfo5>
References: <mailman.2190.1650827278.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E735353DF1E18035233CCEF89@sy4p282mb3844.ausp282.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAD6Rr-zRKCf_RxE58fSCUUtbvCVR4QW==Au0Ej45E8fESzWiHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <em772882d7-5b37-436e-b453-f163395e4c88@desktop-ckcgfo5>
Message-ID: <CAD6Rr-yx9ngFKPOAt2MM-acV_mWVaJ4g_W-1qQCGVbTzCiPFgg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 8:54 PM Harvey Fishman <fishman at panix.com> wrote:

>
> >The only reason I don't own the book is the horrible back cover (and I
> >can't read e-books)
> >
> >Sylvia
> Why can't you read ebooks? You obviously have a computer and there are
> Kindle apps for both PC and Mac.
>
> Harvey
>


Too much zoom. My eyes are tired from work, I don't want more screen time.
Other reasons also, but that's a big one.

From focsle1928 at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 27 19:51:47 2022
From: focsle1928 at yahoo.com (Jane Hotchkiss)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 18:51:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1650970801.9507.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1650970801.9507.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1526884608.1170377.1651085507696@mail.yahoo.com>

 Sharon Micenko wrote:
Serialising Part 24 (!) As we speak. It?s all Gwen?s fault. She made me do it.

?The Emperor?s New Sinew?. (There?s another count in the family.)

https://archiveofourown.org/works/37808536/chapters/94401874 <https://archiveofourown.org/works/37808536/chapters/94401874>

JH: And I am enjoying this whole AU a whole bunch. And Gwynne's too, for that matter. Have reread all of them more than twice, turning into Comfort Reads.
Jane Hotchkiss

  

From matt.msg at gmail.com  Wed Apr 27 21:46:28 2022
From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 16:46:28 -0400
Subject: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes
In-Reply-To: <f2e5ceed-c194-ba57-d8a9-0db6aa2f66dc@matija.com>
References: <003a01d85434$7d7127f0$785377d0$@gordonj.net>
 <CAAjYNUqP9_u7DRDc9n6g0SqnR26NaX1ZJMo1gszrD17QOBR7aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f2e5ceed-c194-ba57-d8a9-0db6aa2f66dc@matija.com>
Message-ID: <CAAjYNUrsW3D=s-iNgksO2_1ys7wj3kg7bDDUfKSJg-fpTpZSbw@mail.gmail.com>

I don't have the energy for a point-by-point debunking.  I will merely note
that the nearby galactic powers weren't indifferent to the plight of
Escobar and, like many countries did for the Ukraine, sent resources.
Which is of course why Cordelia was involved in the first place.  Ukraine
isn't receiving military forces because Russia has the bomb, and there is
no equivalent in the Vorkosiverse (except possibly in the armories of the
haut).

Matt G.

From wawenri at msn.com  Thu Apr 28 05:24:49 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 04:24:49 +0000
Subject: [LMB] OT: Happy News
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB4847CE0F5A16FA5C610DB8CFB4FD9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

Emma will practice with the UNM, Lobo volleyball team this Summer.

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.


From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net  Thu Apr 28 05:31:28 2022
From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 21:31:28 -0700
Subject: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes
In-Reply-To: <CAAjYNUrsW3D=s-iNgksO2_1ys7wj3kg7bDDUfKSJg-fpTpZSbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003a01d85434$7d7127f0$785377d0$@gordonj.net>
 <CAAjYNUqP9_u7DRDc9n6g0SqnR26NaX1ZJMo1gszrD17QOBR7aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f2e5ceed-c194-ba57-d8a9-0db6aa2f66dc@matija.com>
 <CAAjYNUrsW3D=s-iNgksO2_1ys7wj3kg7bDDUfKSJg-fpTpZSbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <973D5ECF-D336-4190-A393-E1A73D2557DE@comcast.net>



> On Apr 27, 2022, at 1:46 PM, Matthew George <matt.msg at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I don't have the energy for a point-by-point debunking.  I will merely note
> that the nearby galactic powers weren't indifferent to the plight of
> Escobar and, like many countries did for the Ukraine, sent resources.
> Which is of course why Cordelia was involved in the first place.  Ukraine
> isn't receiving military forces because Russia has the bomb, and there is
> no equivalent in the Vorkosiverse (except possibly in the armories of the
> haut).
> 

Since you didn?t copy any of the post you are replying to, I am not certain of which one it is (also, the previous post was 3 days ago). I did look through the thread in the mailing list archives and, AFAIKT, the reply above appears to be a non sequitur. 

I will point out one big different between Putin?s current Ukrainian war and the Barrayaran invasion of Escobar - the Escobar invasion was doomed to fail as planned by Ear.

"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
?-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com


From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 28 09:19:28 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 08:19:28 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1651057201.24831.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1651057201.24831.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38441E4DC7ADA0BFB1893216CEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>


Buckle up, folks. Here we go...

So Miles is dithering around getting ready for the dinner party - he's driven
the entire staff (what there is of it) crazy. Poor Pym is hovering, and when
he cycles back into a decent suit Pym grabs all the other outfits before Miles
can change again. Poor Pym is trying so hard to support Miles's efforts.

Interesting echo: Ekaterin did a bit of emotional growth during her
morning shower, accepting her newly-found libido and trying to decide
how to deal with it. Now Miles, while getting changed, looks at his own
naked body and hopes she can accept it. (Apparently some people do
their most realistic thinking while naked. Nowhere to hide, I suppose.)

The table is set for a state dinner. The floral arrangements are safely
low. The seating arrangements are perfectly balanced for each guest.

Miles wonders about Lady Donna. He'd envied Ivan, as usual. Now,
looking back, he wonders if it was more of a mercy flight by Donna,
rather than Ivan being Mr Suave. Lady Alys hadn't been pleased at
the thought of her twenty-year-old son marrying a thirty-year-old
divorcee. Now, she's more desperate for Ivan to get married, and
a forty-year-old woman can use a uterine replicator. Miles wonders
if Ivan's realised that his mother and Simon could give him a half-sib.
(Ohhhh I'd love to see that scene, when they tell Ivan.)

Mark wants the seating changed; he doesn't want to sit near Duv.
Miles promised to sit Rene near Lady Alys, for political reasons.
Besides, if Mark stays with Kareen, he'll have to get used to Duv.
Mark is uncomfortable about Duv; actually, Duv should be the one
feeling uncomfortable, Mark was an innocent victim of his father
AND he saved Duv's life. But Duv.... he does have a certain imposing
sort of personality. Mark has Killer, but Duv... when he redlines,
he's at least as dangerous. Possibly more so, because of his intense
focus at that moment. Wouldn't want to put it to the test, if I was
Mark.

Alys and Simon arrive: Alys to check that Miles has everything ready,
Simon happily trailing in her wake. He looks a lot better now; she's
in charge of his wardrobe, but he's still a bit vague around the edges.
Simon and Miles chat about his marriage prospects until the
Koudelkas arrive. With Duv.  Greetings, drinks, nibbles, books - all
is going well in the library. The Vorbrettens arrive, and then, finally,
the Vorthys party - Ekaterin is here!  Ekaterin detoured via the garden,
and planted the sprout she struck from the skellytum fragments.
(Metaphor for their relationship? Life surviving after the destruction?
Barrayaran life taken to Komarr, nearly destroyed but returned to home
soil and starting a new life?)

Miles introduces her around - she's a bit daunted to meet the dreaded
Simon Illyan, but she copes.

Dr Borgos trails in, clean and respectable - amazing! He can be
trained! He obviously has some hero-worship for Ekaterin, Miles
is jealous and then worried. Enrique can give her lavish compliments
and use her first name (but then Enrique is safe, as far as Ekaterin
is concerned. He's a puppy, and no threat to her at all.)

Fortunately Ivan arrives - a certain tone in Pym's introductions
draws Miles's attention. And now they all meet Lord Dono. Miles
has security concerns about this stranger - and then he remembers
Beta colony and Lady Donna, and gets it - he really is fast. And he
gets ALL the political implications, and the legal ones, and the
very interesting fight in the CoC... yes, he's fast. Miles slides Dono
off to Rene and Lady Alys, two useful allies. And Profesorra Vorthys,
who could have some historical knowledge that would help. This
dinner party is a goldmine for Dono.

Miles also checks with Ivan that Gregor knows, and they share a
'Let's see what happens' moment.

Miles explains Dono to Ekaterin; she instantly understands the
head of steam it would take to make that decision.

Dono and all the Koudelka women share some interesting
confidences, and a lot of giggles. Soon all the women are listening
raptly to Dono. It's interesting that nobody in the room is shocked
or horrified; they're all interested, curious, understanding and
supportive (well, maybe a bit stunned too, but this group deals
with it all pretty well.)

And here's the first problem: Mark and Ivan rearranged the
dining table. Which is pretty sneaky, but not a terrible crime.
I'm sure Miles and Ivan did worse over the years.

Fortunately everyone is still able to chat happily as the armsmen
do the serving.

Then Miles realises that the food isn't what he planned. Ahhhh.
Bug vomit. Ekaterin gets it, too. She copes very well.

Enrique has another lovely surprise for them. He puts a small box
between Miles and Alys. Simon is instantly suspicious; Duv slides his
chair back a bit ready to move. ImpSec officers are always such fun
to have around. And... it's three butter bugs. With the Vorkosigan
crest on their backs. Silver edging the wings, like an armsman's
uniform.

Enrique explains about the bugs, and that everyone's just eaten
bug butter (sounds a lot better than bug vomit, at least.) Oh, and
the crests are genetically created and will breed true. Forever.

The armsmen send a mute plea to Miles, for permission to kill
Enrique. I think they feel the insult even more than Miles.

Alys is disapproving, the armsmen are still homicidal. The rest
of the guests are concerned. Duv and Dono are amused, as is
Simon. I do feel sorry for Miles here, this one isn't his fault.
Mark gets it right away, and looks very worried.

And Miles remembers that Ekaterin's first husband had a foul
temper. Everyone else is amused, angry, curious or worried.
Ekaterin is scared.

Miles, with great self-control, thanks Enrique and suggests that
he put the girls away. Ekaterin relaxes. Alys is impressed at his
self-control. Enrique goes off to display his bugs to the other end
of the table. Dinner and a show.

Miles rouses the armsmen from their homicidal fury, and sends
them for the next course (minus bug vomit.)

Poor Ekaterin tries to have a conversation with Duv - and starts
by asking how his Komarran family feel about his career. Duv, who
really would make a great diplomat or Counsellor of Komarr,
finds a safe answer.

.... and Enrique helps the dinner party go with a bang when he
comments happily that the bugs will make such a profit that
Kareen and Mark can have another trip to the Orb.


"You took my daughter to the Orb?"

Kareen, utterly panicked, blurted, "It was part of his therapy!"

Mark, panicked worse, added in desperate exculpation, "We got a Clinic discount . . ."

... that doesn't help.

Apart from the imminent Koudelka explosion, Duv has suddenly realised
that he's going to be related to Mark.

I think the Professora is wishing she could take notes; this is an interesting
sociological situation.

Alys tries to start a safe conversation, but a couple of Zap's kittens come in,
fighting over a butter bug. At least this gives Miles a moment of happiness.
But wait... how did they get the bug...?

Enrique and Mark flee to check the lab. Miles follows. And about two hundred
Vorkosigan bugs have escaped from a fallen tray. But workers will just die off.
Except that the queen is gone too - and yes, sure, they can't move. Eventually.
But young ones can... ohhhh dear.

Miles falls back on his training and starts to throttle Enrique, with threats.
And Kareen arrives, with Ekaterin. Kareen approves of the throttling,
Ekaterin not so much. Miles gives Enrique a time limit - by six hours
before the Count and Countess are due back he's to have all the bugs
recaptured or Miles gets the exterminators in. Ekaterin offers to stay and
help Enrique recapture the bugs.

After some discussion of the wisdom of Orb trips, and family reactions,
Miles backpedals on the bugmageddon, and they troop back upstairs,
leaving Enrique to start the hunt. Miles sends the armsmen around with
yet more wine.

Alys, whose social skills are holding firm, launches them into an Imperial
Wedding discussion.

Ekaterin is pretty quiet, but Dono makes her laugh a few times. Miles
starts to be jealous of Dono.

More good news; Ma Kosti is furious that Miles stopped her from
using her best bug-buttery sauces. Oh good, get the cook angry too.
So they have a frozen bug butter dessert (which was Ekaterin's
suggestion, did he but know) and sadly it's absolutely delicious.

Miles manages to make Ekaterin laugh at the story of delivering
his District's wedding gift: a life-sized statue of a guerilla soldier
on horseback. Done in maple sugar. (Uh... words fail me.)

Ok, here it comes.

Poor simon puts his foot right in it:

"Speaking of weddings, Madame Vorsoisson, how long has Miles been courting you? Have you awarded him a date yet? Personally, I think you ought to string him along and make him work for it."

There's a flutter of table discussion, which doesn't help since it
makes it clear that everyone else knows about his plans.

And Miles, consummate politician, makes the worst decision of his
life (which is saying something):

"Yes, ah, heh, quite, well, so, that reminds me, Madame Vorsoisson, I'd been meaning to ask you?will you marry me?"





From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 28 09:34:54 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 08:34:54 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9 - Pt 1 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1651057201.24831.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1651057201.24831.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844C193704816BCBF6D9B75CEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



The first time I read this book, this scene was shattering. Made me hate
the whole book, for a while.

But... with perspective...

First, we know it all works out in the end. So this is a hiccup, not a
terminal disaster.

Next, every shattering disaster for Miles leads to something good:
his failure to get into the Academy leads to the creation of the Dendarii
Fleet. Being tossed from ImpSec leads to the Auditorship.

And, frankly, in this case, Miles does need a big brick. Even if he did
go ahead with the covert courtship, he should never EVER have broadcast
that to all of Vorbarr Sultana. He treated Ekaterin very badly. Yes, he
adores her and admires her and is in love with her - but his every thought
is how each action affects him. How it affects his chances. He's an ego on
legs at this point. So yes, he needs and deserves a big brick.

If things had progressed as Miles wished, would they have the same
relationship that we see later? Or is he sowing seeds of destruction?

The huge Miles disaster tends to overshadow the rest, but by the end
of the dinner party there's quite a few other disagreements and problems
simmering away.

Spare a thought for Rene and Tatya. They've been social outcasts for
ages, and now they're at a lovely party where they can feel that things
are back to normal, just a little. This wasn't what they were expecting.

Would you have wanted to attend that dinner party?



From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 28 09:39:40 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 08:39:40 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 7 Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2268.1651133978.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2268.1651133978.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384448B0476BE1A4609088BECEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Jane Hotchkiss <focsle1928 at yahoo.com>

 Sharon Micenko wrote:
Serialising Part 24 (!) As we speak. It?s all Gwen?s fault. She made me do it.
?The Emperor?s New Sinew?. (There?s another count in the family.)

JH: And I am enjoying this whole AU a whole bunch. And Gwynne's too, for that matter. Have reread all of them more than twice, turning into Comfort Reads.
Jane Hotchkiss

Gwynne: I'm loving the new one, too. I SO wish that AU could be canon!
As for mine... there may be another one. When I finally finish the darn thing.

From domelouann at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 14:36:49 2022
From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 08:36:49 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38441E4DC7ADA0BFB1893216CEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1651057201.24831.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38441E4DC7ADA0BFB1893216CEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAGqU+djk3aKcicNNKfKhxdwTmXm145Lv7VpqZeHNdxKE7REgXw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:19 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Buckle up, folks. Here we go...
>
> Mark is uncomfortable about Duv; actually, Duv should be the one
> feeling uncomfortable, Mark was an innocent victim of his father
> AND he saved Duv's life. But Duv.... he does have a certain imposing
> sort of personality. Mark has Killer, but Duv... when he redlines,
> he's at least as dangerous. Possibly more so, because of his intense
> focus at that moment. Wouldn't want to put it to the test, if I was
> Mark.
>

A side note: mentally looking around that table, there are all sorts of
people who would look like a good target if a mugger saw them alone in a
dark alley. And damn few of them where the mugger would survive the
experience. Not leaving out Commodore Koudelka and his historically
priceless sword cane.

From becca7108 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 14:49:19 2022
From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:49:19 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: Happy News
In-Reply-To: <CO3PR18MB4847CE0F5A16FA5C610DB8CFB4FD9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CO3PR18MB4847CE0F5A16FA5C610DB8CFB4FD9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAJH0-vNYjLPOr=8-vXUxWRE=OAV96eFx2qOE2TPO7zbrb_+Gqw@mail.gmail.com>

How exciting! Good for her!

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 12:25 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com> wrote:
>
> Emma will practice with the UNM, Lobo volleyball team this Summer.
>
> William A Wenrich
>
>   *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to becca7108 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold


From fred.fredex at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 14:56:07 2022
From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:56:07 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9 - Pt 1 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844C193704816BCBF6D9B75CEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1651057201.24831.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844C193704816BCBF6D9B75CEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAF2xExu265dfgc4OxJKFTDkRyW5qRbwf0d3b1oBAGoDNBVA_Ww@mail.gmail.com>

Would you have wanted to attend that dinner party?
perhaps as a fly on the wall.

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 4:35 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> The first time I read this book, this scene was shattering. Made me hate
> the whole book, for a while.
>
> But... with perspective...
>
> First, we know it all works out in the end. So this is a hiccup, not a
> terminal disaster.
>
> Next, every shattering disaster for Miles leads to something good:
> his failure to get into the Academy leads to the creation of the Dendarii
> Fleet. Being tossed from ImpSec leads to the Auditorship.
>
> And, frankly, in this case, Miles does need a big brick. Even if he did
> go ahead with the covert courtship, he should never EVER have broadcast
> that to all of Vorbarr Sultana. He treated Ekaterin very badly. Yes, he
> adores her and admires her and is in love with her - but his every thought
> is how each action affects him. How it affects his chances. He's an ego on
> legs at this point. So yes, he needs and deserves a big brick.
>
> If things had progressed as Miles wished, would they have the same
> relationship that we see later? Or is he sowing seeds of destruction?
>
> The huge Miles disaster tends to overshadow the rest, but by the end
> of the dinner party there's quite a few other disagreements and problems
> simmering away.
>
> Spare a thought for Rene and Tatya. They've been social outcasts for
> ages, and now they're at a lovely party where they can feel that things
> are back to normal, just a little. This wasn't what they were expecting.
>
> Would you have wanted to attend that dinner party?
>
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From becca7108 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 15:05:20 2022
From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 10:05:20 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9 - Pt 1 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844C193704816BCBF6D9B75CEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1651057201.24831.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844C193704816BCBF6D9B75CEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAJH0-vOV0aa0+K5Kz3jptJbZspxfaESdX2TjfMfRZr1n0Ya3EA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 4:35 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> The first time I read this book, this scene was shattering. Made me hate
> the whole book, for a while.

I'm sorry, Gwynne, but I can't even read your summary of the chapter
with any comfort. In fact, I didn't read the whole thing - I couldn't.
I have read ACC a couple of times, and every time I read it, I have to
skip that part, even knowing that it comes out better in the end for
the episode. I just want to die for poor Miles and poor Ekaterine.

-Becca

From rgmolpus at flash.net  Thu Apr 28 15:50:29 2022
From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 14:50:29 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38441E4DC7ADA0BFB1893216CEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1651057201.24831.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38441E4DC7ADA0BFB1893216CEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <1957924564.1805517.1651157429138@mail.yahoo.com>

 Duv has something Mark desires deeply - acknowledgement and respect. Duv's respect is worth a LOT to Mark; it fills and important part of his self-esteem (Daddy Approves!).?? 
I'm not sure Killer would rise to the occasion if Duv and Mark got in a fight; Howl just might step in and say 'No, we deserve this'

    On Thursday, April 28, 2022, 03:19:47 AM CDT, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:  
 
 
Buckle up, folks. Here we go...
<snip>Mark wants the seating changed; he doesn't want to sit near Duv.
Miles promised to sit Rene near Lady Alys, for political reasons.
Besides, if Mark stays with Kareen, he'll have to get used to Duv.
Mark is uncomfortable about Duv; actually, Duv should be the one
feeling uncomfortable, Mark was an innocent victim of his father
AND he saved Duv's life. But Duv.... he does have a certain imposing
sort of personality. Mark has Killer, but Duv... when he redlines,
he's at least as dangerous. Possibly more so, because of his intense
focus at that moment. Wouldn't want to put it to the test, if I was
Mark.
<snip>
  

From loisaletafundis at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 17:26:40 2022
From: loisaletafundis at gmail.com (Lois Aleta Fundis)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:26:40 -0400
Subject: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes
In-Reply-To: <973D5ECF-D336-4190-A393-E1A73D2557DE@comcast.net>
References: <003a01d85434$7d7127f0$785377d0$@gordonj.net>
 <CAAjYNUqP9_u7DRDc9n6g0SqnR26NaX1ZJMo1gszrD17QOBR7aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f2e5ceed-c194-ba57-d8a9-0db6aa2f66dc@matija.com>
 <CAAjYNUrsW3D=s-iNgksO2_1ys7wj3kg7bDDUfKSJg-fpTpZSbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <973D5ECF-D336-4190-A393-E1A73D2557DE@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAHVs7Sh1b7f5JHH3zx6WocKT7FcOqZ87DY--hjUTrs=Zhr+GtQ@mail.gmail.com>

While we are in this junction of futuristic fiction and all-too-real-life
fact, I want to interject this:

A few weeks ago, there was a photo of Volodymyr Zelenskyy on the cover of
The Economist.

I found myself thinking he looked like someone. But who?

Two people came to mind. One was a member of my family. The other was  Aral
Vorkosigan. (Or maybe Miles?)

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 12:32 AM Robert Woodward <
Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net> wrote:

>
>
> > On Apr 27, 2022, at 1:46 PM, Matthew George <matt.msg at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I don't have the energy for a point-by-point debunking.  I will merely
> note
> > that the nearby galactic powers weren't indifferent to the plight of
> > Escobar and, like many countries did for the Ukraine, sent resources.
> > Which is of course why Cordelia was involved in the first place.  Ukraine
> > isn't receiving military forces because Russia has the bomb, and there is
> > no equivalent in the Vorkosiverse (except possibly in the armories of the
> > haut).
> >
>
> Since you didn?t copy any of the post you are replying to, I am not
> certain of which one it is (also, the previous post was 3 days ago). I did
> look through the thread in the mailing list archives and, AFAIKT, the reply
> above appears to be a non sequitur.
>
> I will point out one big different between Putin?s current Ukrainian war
> and the Barrayaran invasion of Escobar - the Escobar invasion was doomed to
> fail as planned by Ear.
>
> "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
> Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
> ?-----------------------------------------------------
> Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to loisaletafundis at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>


-- 
Lois Aleta Fundis
loisaletafundis at gmail.com

[image: image.png]

From litalex at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 17:40:24 2022
From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:40:24 -0400
Subject: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes
In-Reply-To: <CAHVs7Sh1b7f5JHH3zx6WocKT7FcOqZ87DY--hjUTrs=Zhr+GtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003a01d85434$7d7127f0$785377d0$@gordonj.net>
 <CAAjYNUqP9_u7DRDc9n6g0SqnR26NaX1ZJMo1gszrD17QOBR7aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f2e5ceed-c194-ba57-d8a9-0db6aa2f66dc@matija.com>
 <CAAjYNUrsW3D=s-iNgksO2_1ys7wj3kg7bDDUfKSJg-fpTpZSbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <973D5ECF-D336-4190-A393-E1A73D2557DE@comcast.net>
 <CAHVs7Sh1b7f5JHH3zx6WocKT7FcOqZ87DY--hjUTrs=Zhr+GtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A3CC287C-7E0E-4E94-B43B-1D9A2C674931@gmail.com>

Hello,

> On Apr 28, 2022, at 12:26, Lois Aleta Fundis <loisaletafundis at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> While we are in this junction of futuristic fiction and all-too-real-life
> fact, I want to interject this:
> 
> A few weeks ago, there was a photo of Volodymyr Zelenskyy on the cover of
> The Economist.
> 
> I found myself thinking he looked like someone. But who?
> 
> Two people came to mind. One was a member of my family. The other was  Aral
> Vorkosigan. (Or maybe Miles?)

And he was an actor once. Hmmm. :p

little Alex

From becca7108 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 17:44:10 2022
From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:44:10 -0400
Subject: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes
In-Reply-To: <A3CC287C-7E0E-4E94-B43B-1D9A2C674931@gmail.com>
References: <003a01d85434$7d7127f0$785377d0$@gordonj.net>
 <CAAjYNUqP9_u7DRDc9n6g0SqnR26NaX1ZJMo1gszrD17QOBR7aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f2e5ceed-c194-ba57-d8a9-0db6aa2f66dc@matija.com>
 <CAAjYNUrsW3D=s-iNgksO2_1ys7wj3kg7bDDUfKSJg-fpTpZSbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <973D5ECF-D336-4190-A393-E1A73D2557DE@comcast.net>
 <CAHVs7Sh1b7f5JHH3zx6WocKT7FcOqZ87DY--hjUTrs=Zhr+GtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <A3CC287C-7E0E-4E94-B43B-1D9A2C674931@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJH0-vNEFevx4U+oBmi2uoFRo3OQcz267jN7wnnLVTS25Aot8A@mail.gmail.com>

I still see Oliver Stone as Aral, per Our Hostess, but Zelenskyy would
certainly do an excellent job. He has Aral's charisma.

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 12:40 PM Alex Kwan <litalex at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> > On Apr 28, 2022, at 12:26, Lois Aleta Fundis <loisaletafundis at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > While we are in this junction of futuristic fiction and all-too-real-life
> > fact, I want to interject this:
> >
> > A few weeks ago, there was a photo of Volodymyr Zelenskyy on the cover of
> > The Economist.
> >
> > I found myself thinking he looked like someone. But who?
> >
> > Two people came to mind. One was a member of my family. The other was  Aral
> > Vorkosigan. (Or maybe Miles?)
>
> And he was an actor once. Hmmm. :p
>
> little Alex
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to becca7108 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold

From proto at panix.com  Thu Apr 28 19:18:35 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 14:18:35 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9 - Pt 1 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <CAJH0-vOV0aa0+K5Kz3jptJbZspxfaESdX2TjfMfRZr1n0Ya3EA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1651057201.24831.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844C193704816BCBF6D9B75CEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAJH0-vOV0aa0+K5Kz3jptJbZspxfaESdX2TjfMfRZr1n0Ya3EA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BB05F707-9A5D-4D93-9F0E-5A312B118DDD@panix.com>



> On Apr 28, 2022, at 10:05 AM, Becca Price <becca7108 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm sorry, Gwynne, but I can't even read your summary of the chapter
> with any comfort. In fact, I didn't read the whole thing - I couldn't.
> I have read ACC a couple of times, and every time I read it, I have to
> skip that part, even knowing that it comes out better in the end for
> the episode. I just want to die for poor Miles and poor Ekaterine.
> 
> -Becca

In my mind, it?s less toxic than the first part of _Komarr_. This is social 
embarrassment at best. Remember Miles there was uncomfortable because
he didn?t know the family, until he he became to know them.

Also it?s harder for me to read the first part of _Memory_ where Miles is
essentially self sabotaging. Lying to superiors and oblivious to clues.

Gregor: ?You got my courier back almost in one piece.?

Ekaterin and Miles could not have gotten together so quickly without
some kind of trauma. The aftermath gave her a power over him and a
check that every powerful person needs. He did need to be taken down
several pegs already so they could meet in equality.
? 
?That which doesn?t make us stronger kills us.?



From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 28 19:27:41 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 18:27:41 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9 - Pt 1 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2296.1651169920.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2296.1651169920.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844E14FE2C9CD52E8EF9725CEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Fred <fred.fredex at gmail.com>

Would you have wanted to attend that dinner party?
perhaps as a fly on the wall.

Gwynne: A butterbug on the wall?


From mathews55 at msn.com  Thu Apr 28 19:32:16 2022
From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 18:32:16 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9 - Pt 1 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844E14FE2C9CD52E8EF9725CEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.2296.1651169920.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E14FE2C9CD52E8EF9725CEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <MN2PR04MB684707432FEB3A7A23D75219B4FD9@MN2PR04MB6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

On the wall is the safest place for a butterbug at that point.
________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 12:27 PM
To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9 - Pt 1 - Comments

From: Fred <fred.fredex at gmail.com>

Would you have wanted to attend that dinner party?
perhaps as a fly on the wall.

Gwynne: A butterbug on the wall?

--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold

From ravenclaweric at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 19:48:39 2022
From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 13:48:39 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9 - Pt 1 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <MN2PR04MB684707432FEB3A7A23D75219B4FD9@MN2PR04MB6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.2296.1651169920.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844E14FE2C9CD52E8EF9725CEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <MN2PR04MB684707432FEB3A7A23D75219B4FD9@MN2PR04MB6847.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAO7QBz9HUe9mEjDY--oR3stJdRP-6jvpTbhd+HfR5nL_q1SRsA@mail.gmail.com>

I have a friend who's entomophobic and can't read that book at all.  The
descriptions of butterbugs were too much.

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 1:32 PM Pat Mathews <mathews55 at msn.com> wrote:

> On the wall is the safest place for a butterbug at that point.
> ________________________________
> From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of
> Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 12:27 PM
> To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
> Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9 - Pt 1 - Comments
>
> From: Fred <fred.fredex at gmail.com>
>
> Would you have wanted to attend that dinner party?
> perhaps as a fly on the wall.
>
> Gwynne: A butterbug on the wall?
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From matt.msg at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 20:42:17 2022
From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 15:42:17 -0400
Subject: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes
In-Reply-To: <973D5ECF-D336-4190-A393-E1A73D2557DE@comcast.net>
References: <003a01d85434$7d7127f0$785377d0$@gordonj.net>
 <CAAjYNUqP9_u7DRDc9n6g0SqnR26NaX1ZJMo1gszrD17QOBR7aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f2e5ceed-c194-ba57-d8a9-0db6aa2f66dc@matija.com>
 <CAAjYNUrsW3D=s-iNgksO2_1ys7wj3kg7bDDUfKSJg-fpTpZSbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <973D5ECF-D336-4190-A393-E1A73D2557DE@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAAjYNUqmjCsakf=7W-CXrTShbE-MyGLwQLX7xvHtGZh7Z_D4+A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 12:32 AM Robert Woodward <
Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net> wrote:

> Since you didn?t copy any of the post you are replying to, I am not
> certain of which one it is
>

In an era where even rudimentary freeware email programs organize messages
into threads, I have no patience with people who refuse to use them.  The
service offered by my university *twenty years ago*, which was so primitive
it required a floppy disk for storage, could still associate replies with
the messages they responded to.

Matt "more sophisticated than smoke signals or semaphore" G.

From howard at brazee.net  Thu Apr 28 20:47:02 2022
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 13:47:02 -0600
Subject: [LMB] OT: email considerations
In-Reply-To: <CAAjYNUqmjCsakf=7W-CXrTShbE-MyGLwQLX7xvHtGZh7Z_D4+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003a01d85434$7d7127f0$785377d0$@gordonj.net>
 <CAAjYNUqP9_u7DRDc9n6g0SqnR26NaX1ZJMo1gszrD17QOBR7aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f2e5ceed-c194-ba57-d8a9-0db6aa2f66dc@matija.com>
 <CAAjYNUrsW3D=s-iNgksO2_1ys7wj3kg7bDDUfKSJg-fpTpZSbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <973D5ECF-D336-4190-A393-E1A73D2557DE@comcast.net>
 <CAAjYNUqmjCsakf=7W-CXrTShbE-MyGLwQLX7xvHtGZh7Z_D4+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6FA56428-901F-43CD-B5C2-DA9A39A52727@brazee.net>



> On Apr 28, 2022, at 1:42 PM, Matthew George <matt.msg at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> In an era where even rudimentary freeware email programs organize messages
> into threads, I have no patience with people who refuse to use them. The
> service offered by my university *twenty years ago*, which was so primitive
> it required a floppy disk for storage, could still associate replies with
> the messages they responded to.

I don?t want to keep old e-mail.   I appreciate people who go to the tiny bit of extra work to include meaningful quotes.

From matt.msg at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 20:59:07 2022
From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 15:59:07 -0400
Subject: [LMB] OT: email considerations
In-Reply-To: <6FA56428-901F-43CD-B5C2-DA9A39A52727@brazee.net>
References: <003a01d85434$7d7127f0$785377d0$@gordonj.net>
 <CAAjYNUqP9_u7DRDc9n6g0SqnR26NaX1ZJMo1gszrD17QOBR7aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f2e5ceed-c194-ba57-d8a9-0db6aa2f66dc@matija.com>
 <CAAjYNUrsW3D=s-iNgksO2_1ys7wj3kg7bDDUfKSJg-fpTpZSbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <973D5ECF-D336-4190-A393-E1A73D2557DE@comcast.net>
 <CAAjYNUqmjCsakf=7W-CXrTShbE-MyGLwQLX7xvHtGZh7Z_D4+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <6FA56428-901F-43CD-B5C2-DA9A39A52727@brazee.net>
Message-ID: <CAAjYNUpJ+jeu-MTyEnEBQ+7pfjNwkieEjrTY67rLoRUB+i6NVQ@mail.gmail.com>

The original message in question was long, rambling, and chock full of
nonsense.  It doesn't deserve to be reproduced any further than it already
has.  I award it no points, and may God have mercy on its soul.

Matt G.

From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk  Thu Apr 28 21:55:32 2022
From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:55:32 +0100
Subject: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes
In-Reply-To: <f2e5ceed-c194-ba57-d8a9-0db6aa2f66dc@matija.com>
References: <003a01d85434$7d7127f0$785377d0$@gordonj.net>
 <CAAjYNUqP9_u7DRDc9n6g0SqnR26NaX1ZJMo1gszrD17QOBR7aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f2e5ceed-c194-ba57-d8a9-0db6aa2f66dc@matija.com>
Message-ID: <vovl6hdf63l0jat992fafe66kpvma73d16@4ax.com>

On Sun, 24 Apr 2022 09:50:55 +0100, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold
<lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

>
>Could the US be any more involved without triggering Russia into
>starting WW3? That is a million dollar question.

It may be a moot point if Russia attacks a NATO member (a category due
to increase by two, fairly soon).
--
When you meet with opposition, even if it should be from your husband or
your children, endeavor to overcome it by argument and not by authority,
for a victory dependent upon authority is unreal and illusory.
  - Bertrand Russell


From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk  Thu Apr 28 22:07:57 2022
From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 22:07:57 +0100
Subject: [LMB] Well, we had a good run, but....
Message-ID: <2f0m6hpnqum9us382gi754ltkdpi65201t@4ax.com>

M'lady and I have the Covids.

It's someone on the bad cold/mild flu cusp.

Grateful for grocery deliveries, even if they do cock up the odd thing.
--
When you meet with opposition, even if it should be from your husband or
your children, endeavor to overcome it by argument and not by authority,
for a victory dependent upon authority is unreal and illusory.
  - Bertrand Russell


From kawyle at att.net  Thu Apr 28 22:11:22 2022
From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:11:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [LMB] Well, we had a good run, but....
In-Reply-To: <2f0m6hpnqum9us382gi754ltkdpi65201t@4ax.com>
References: <2f0m6hpnqum9us382gi754ltkdpi65201t@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <666704267.1940533.1651180282734@mail.yahoo.com>

 May you recover quickly and with no longterm effects!
Karen A. Wyle
    On Thursday, April 28, 2022, 05:08:14 PM EDT, Marc Wilson <marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk> wrote:  
 
 M'lady and I have the Covids.

It's someone on the bad cold/mild flu cusp.

Grateful for grocery deliveries, even if they do cock up the odd thing.
--

  

From markgoldfield at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 28 22:36:54 2022
From: markgoldfield at hotmail.com (Mark Goldfield)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:36:54 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Well, we had a good run, but....
In-Reply-To: <2f0m6hpnqum9us382gi754ltkdpi65201t@4ax.com>
References: <2f0m6hpnqum9us382gi754ltkdpi65201t@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <SJ0PR17MB5888BFDB0DEE8A1949369182B8FD9@SJ0PR17MB5888.namprd17.prod.outlook.com>

Best wishes for a speedy and full recovery 

Mark

> On Apr 28, 2022, at 5:08 PM, Marc Wilson <marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> ?M'lady and I have the Covids.
> 
> It's someone on the bad cold/mild flu cusp.
> 
> Grateful for grocery deliveries, even if they do cock up the odd thing.
> --
> When you meet with opposition, even if it should be from your husband or
> your children, endeavor to overcome it by argument and not by authority,
> for a victory dependent upon authority is unreal and illusory.
>  - Bertrand Russell
> 
> -- 
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to markgoldfield at hotmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=05%7C01%7C%7C781dd2690e324d6d47df08da295b3495%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637867768954804729%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=%2FNEBsQlKubGld6Z%2BzJdy9TUvR5fWYixMpzvAiiVdZsw%3D&amp;reserved=0


From tzbarasc at lasierra.edu  Thu Apr 28 22:39:13 2022
From: tzbarasc at lasierra.edu (Tony Zbaraschuk)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 16:39:13 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Well, we had a good run, but....
In-Reply-To: <2f0m6hpnqum9us382gi754ltkdpi65201t@4ax.com>
References: <2f0m6hpnqum9us382gi754ltkdpi65201t@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CA+x2q7tWYeddQrt+50nVoywyHvTC-yKa+q+_UNCRVKUBSQPPvg@mail.gmail.com>

May your immune systems rally and your future health be good.


Tony Z


On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 4:08 PM Marc Wilson <marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk> wrote:

> M'lady and I have the Covids.
>
> It's someone on the bad cold/mild flu cusp.
>
> Grateful for grocery deliveries, even if they do cock up the odd thing.
> --
> When you meet with opposition, even if it should be from your husband or
> your children, endeavor to overcome it by argument and not by authority,
> for a victory dependent upon authority is unreal and illusory.
>   - Bertrand Russell
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to tzbarasc at lasierra.edu
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>


-- 
Tony Zbaraschuk
Bookworm, talker, learner
Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!"

From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net  Fri Apr 29 00:51:45 2022
From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 16:51:45 -0700
Subject: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes
In-Reply-To: <CAAjYNUqmjCsakf=7W-CXrTShbE-MyGLwQLX7xvHtGZh7Z_D4+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003a01d85434$7d7127f0$785377d0$@gordonj.net>
 <CAAjYNUqP9_u7DRDc9n6g0SqnR26NaX1ZJMo1gszrD17QOBR7aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f2e5ceed-c194-ba57-d8a9-0db6aa2f66dc@matija.com>
 <CAAjYNUrsW3D=s-iNgksO2_1ys7wj3kg7bDDUfKSJg-fpTpZSbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <973D5ECF-D336-4190-A393-E1A73D2557DE@comcast.net>
 <CAAjYNUqmjCsakf=7W-CXrTShbE-MyGLwQLX7xvHtGZh7Z_D4+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0DF3C683-8F43-48C8-A9FE-B3265B338963@comcast.net>



> On Apr 28, 2022, at 12:42 PM, Matthew George <matt.msg at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 12:32 AM Robert Woodward <
> Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>> Since you didn?t copy any of the post you are replying to, I am not
>> certain of which one it is
>> 
> 
> In an era where even rudimentary freeware email programs organize messages
> into threads, I have no patience with people who refuse to use them.  The
> service offered by my university *twenty years ago*, which was so primitive
> it required a floppy disk for storage, could still associate replies with
> the messages they responded to.
> 

First, you delete the part of my reply where I mentioned checking the thread, and then you flog a straw man of your creation. Do you have any mode other than obnoxiousness?

"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
?-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com


From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 29 02:04:11 2022
From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 20:04:11 -0500
Subject: [LMB] Well, we had a good run, but....
In-Reply-To: <CA+x2q7tWYeddQrt+50nVoywyHvTC-yKa+q+_UNCRVKUBSQPPvg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2f0m6hpnqum9us382gi754ltkdpi65201t@4ax.com>
 <CA+x2q7tWYeddQrt+50nVoywyHvTC-yKa+q+_UNCRVKUBSQPPvg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK6ahzbfaLkP-3MgxgfsFG_eqed-OeBM4whJcTu4VsX78gxNuw@mail.gmail.com>

I hope you and your Lady get better soon.

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, 4:39 PM Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold <
lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:

> May your immune systems rally and your future health be good.
>
>
> Tony Z
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 4:08 PM Marc Wilson <marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > M'lady and I have the Covids.
> >
> > It's someone on the bad cold/mild flu cusp.
> >
> > Grateful for grocery deliveries, even if they do cock up the odd thing.
> > --
> > When you meet with opposition, even if it should be from your husband or
> > your children, endeavor to overcome it by argument and not by authority,
> > for a victory dependent upon authority is unreal and illusory.
> >   - Bertrand Russell
> >
> > --
> > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to tzbarasc at lasierra.edu
> > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
> >
>
>
> --
> Tony Zbaraschuk
> Bookworm, talker, learner
> Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!"
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From litalex at gmail.com  Fri Apr 29 02:30:06 2022
From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:30:06 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Well, we had a good run, but....
In-Reply-To: <2f0m6hpnqum9us382gi754ltkdpi65201t@4ax.com>
References: <2f0m6hpnqum9us382gi754ltkdpi65201t@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <EE287D43-B425-43DD-9A2C-EA0E2D11D7B9@gmail.com>

Hello,

> On Apr 28, 2022, at 17:07, Marc Wilson <marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> M'lady and I have the Covids.
> 
> It's someone on the bad cold/mild flu cusp.
> 
> Grateful for grocery deliveries, even if they do cock up the odd thing.

Hope you and yours get better soon and may there be no long term effects.

little Alex


From lmb at matija.com  Fri Apr 29 08:14:14 2022
From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:14:14 +0100
Subject: [LMB] OT: email considerations
In-Reply-To: <CAAjYNUpJ+jeu-MTyEnEBQ+7pfjNwkieEjrTY67rLoRUB+i6NVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003a01d85434$7d7127f0$785377d0$@gordonj.net>
 <CAAjYNUqP9_u7DRDc9n6g0SqnR26NaX1ZJMo1gszrD17QOBR7aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f2e5ceed-c194-ba57-d8a9-0db6aa2f66dc@matija.com>
 <CAAjYNUrsW3D=s-iNgksO2_1ys7wj3kg7bDDUfKSJg-fpTpZSbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <973D5ECF-D336-4190-A393-E1A73D2557DE@comcast.net>
 <CAAjYNUqmjCsakf=7W-CXrTShbE-MyGLwQLX7xvHtGZh7Z_D4+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <6FA56428-901F-43CD-B5C2-DA9A39A52727@brazee.net>
 <CAAjYNUpJ+jeu-MTyEnEBQ+7pfjNwkieEjrTY67rLoRUB+i6NVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b13b17d2-bf37-154a-adc1-941084e1fab1@matija.com>

On 28/04/2022 20:59, Matthew George wrote:
> The original message in question was long, rambling, and chock full of
> nonsense.  It doesn't deserve to be reproduced any further than it already
> has.  I award it no points, and may God have mercy on its soul.

Actually, it was a detailed, point-by-point debunking of two of your 
claims,

a) that "the US isn't involved at all" in the Ukraine conflict (written 
at the time when US was sending $800 Million of military aid to Ukraine, 
but before the administration requested a $33 Billion-with-a-B package).

b) that Escobar (a single planet, devoted to commerce) was "roughly of 
the same power as Barrayar", which was a two-planet empire, with a 
military culture.

And it was devoid of personal attacks and name calling. Possibly that's 
what confused you.


From lmb at matija.com  Fri Apr 29 08:33:34 2022
From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:33:34 +0100
Subject: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes
In-Reply-To: <CAAjYNUrsW3D=s-iNgksO2_1ys7wj3kg7bDDUfKSJg-fpTpZSbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003a01d85434$7d7127f0$785377d0$@gordonj.net>
 <CAAjYNUqP9_u7DRDc9n6g0SqnR26NaX1ZJMo1gszrD17QOBR7aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f2e5ceed-c194-ba57-d8a9-0db6aa2f66dc@matija.com>
 <CAAjYNUrsW3D=s-iNgksO2_1ys7wj3kg7bDDUfKSJg-fpTpZSbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c30713b7-17b1-906f-22ec-8b29242cc9fd@matija.com>

On 27/04/2022 21:46, Matthew George wrote:
> I don't have the energy for a point-by-point debunking.
You don't have grounds for a point-by-point debunking. That is not the 
same thing.
>   I will merely note
> that the nearby galactic powers weren't indifferent to the plight of
> Escobar and, like many countries did for the Ukraine, sent resources.

Except, as noted in my message, the galactic help only came after the 
wormhole blockade was already established.

And it was supplies only, not fighting forces: Cordelia's ship projected 
what looked like a Betan dreadnaught, but I don't remember any textual 
evidence of actual Betan battleships being employed. Only cargo vessels 
(three freighters, and Cordelia's projection ship, none of them armed).

> Which is of course why Cordelia was involved in the first place.

No, "in the first place" Cordelia was involved because her exploration 
mission discovered a new set of wormholes, from vicinity of Escobar 
(where she started) to a planet controlled by Barrayar. Which is where 
she met Aral, whose assignment was to prevent such discoveries.

Aral was part of the reason why she joined the supply mission to Escobar.

>    Ukraine
> isn't receiving military forces because Russia has the bomb, and there is
> no equivalent in the Vorkosiverse (except possibly in the armories of the
> haut).

Even without the bomb, the aid the other worlds sent to Escobar was no 
greater than what is being sent to Ukraine now (actually, far less - 
only three freighters compared to trains and truckloads of supplies 
Ukraine is getting).

The big difference is that the aid to Escobar had to run a blockade, and 
running a blockade makes you a combatant. Even if you are unarmed.


From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 29 08:39:05 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 07:39:05 +0000
Subject: [LMB] Well, we had a good run, but....
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2307.1651217627.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2307.1651217627.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384441464D5528ED913F5369CEFC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Marc Wilson <marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk>

M'lady and I have the Covids.
It's someone on the bad cold/mild flu cusp.
Grateful for grocery deliveries, even if they do cock up the odd thing.

Gwynne: I hope you both feel better soon. Take care of yourselves.
--


From wembleyware at gmail.com  Fri Apr 29 09:09:03 2022
From: wembleyware at gmail.com (Sharon Micenko)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 16:09:03 +0800
Subject: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2307.1651217627.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2307.1651217627.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <645ED7DE-A3E2-41D7-AAED-8EA0AB6F97BE@gmail.com>

I have just finished re-reading Shards of Honour and right at the end when they are discussing the dead Cordelia reminds Aral not to forget the Escobaran and Betan dead. I don?t think she was just talking about Lt Rosemont. There were more Betans in the conflict apart from her decoy and the three freighters.

My married name is Ukrainian. I?m not one myself, but my in-laws certainly are and were. We don?t have immediate family in Ukraine but that?s because Stalin starved them all to death. The family ended up in Australia running away a second time after the Second World War. And now there are twelve million people running away again.

It doesn?t really stop, does it?

Sharon

> On 29 Apr 2022, at 3:33 pm, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk wrote:
> 
> Re: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes


From cmonblatt at gmail.com  Fri Apr 29 13:58:53 2022
From: cmonblatt at gmail.com (Cathy M.)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:58:53 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Well, we had a good run, but....
In-Reply-To: <2f0m6hpnqum9us382gi754ltkdpi65201t@4ax.com>
References: <2f0m6hpnqum9us382gi754ltkdpi65201t@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CANZuRz50h7M-XU2AVaZP_PgyzNj6FfzrToe82f3dJCUiwb7VgA@mail.gmail.com>

May you both recover quickly and fully
Cathy

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 17:08 Marc Wilson <marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk> wrote:

> M'lady and I have the Covids.
>
> It's someone on the bad cold/mild flu cusp.
>
> Grateful for grocery deliveries, even if they do cock up the odd thing.
> --
> When you meet with opposition, even if it should be from your husband or
> your children, endeavor to overcome it by argument and not by authority,
> for a victory dependent upon authority is unreal and illusory.
>   - Bertrand Russell
>
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to cmonblatt at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 29 14:09:30 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 13:09:30 +0000
Subject: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1651230001.4974.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1651230001.4974.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844CAC791E5201A45C0EC48CEFC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Sharon Micenko <wembleyware at gmail.com>


I have just finished re-reading Shards of Honour and right at the end when they are discussing the dead Cordelia reminds Aral not to forget the Escobaran and Betan dead. I don?t think she was just talking about Lt Rosemont. There were more Betans in the conflict apart from her decoy and the three freighters.
My married name is Ukrainian. I?m not one myself, but my in-laws certainly are and were. We don?t have immediate family in Ukraine but that?s because Stalin starved them all to death. The family ended up in Australia running away a second time after the Second World War. And now there are twelve million people running away again.
It doesn?t really stop, does it?
Sharon

Gwynne: We take peace and safety for granted. We should all be so grateful if we
live in safe places. We can send aid, and any support possible, to those caught up in
terrible situations, and sometimes just knowing the world is watching can make a
small difference. Right now our world is a very sad and scary place.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 29 14:31:53 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 13:31:53 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Chapter 9 - Pt 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1651230001.4974.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1651230001.4974.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB38445C72303DFEF80FE2D186CEFC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



So, poor Simon set off the conflagration.

Ekaterin is frozen. Well, everyone is frozen. Miles manages to
stop the impulse to repeat his proposal. (Ivan proposed to two
Koudelkas on the one day, and that isn't CLOSE to this disaster.
Once again Miles goes that extra distance.)

Alys buries her face in her hands. This is HUGE. She can deal
with any disaster, and has. She's cast-iron when it comes to
social problems, she's sailed through anything. But this... she
buries her face in her hands. This is beyond any simple, or
even complicated, stuff-up.

Ekaterin actually manages to speak:

"How strange. And here I thought you were interested in gardens. Or so you told me."

What does she hate the most? People lying to her. Well done, Miles.

Miles wants her to hell, scream, stomp him... he can deal with that.
Once she starts talking, he can talk her down. Talk her into anything.
But she just walks out. Ekaterin is so frozen and dignified through this.
And in pain - I ache for her at this point.

Miles chases her,

"I have to talk to you. You have to talk to me," he demanded desperately.

She has to? Where's SORRY.

Ekaterin quits the garden job. She'll send the plans; if he wants a garden,
he can go ahead with that.

"Couldn't I have wanted both?" He tumbles through an explanation;
Tien left her so hurt, he was holding back, taking it slow... He tries to
get through but Ekaterin is hurting so much. And she's not happy that
everyone else knew, but her.

"...?whatever you want, I want to give it to you, Ekaterin. Whatever you need. Whatever it is."

"You can't give me my own soul."

And that's the core of it. Miles actually thinks he's getting somehwere.
Ekaterin orders Pym to open the door, "Yes, Milady." She's not a Milady
now, and it doesn't look likely. But that's how he's been thinking of her.

But then a groundcar draws up, Aral and Cordelia arrive, Ekaterin
bounces off Aral and cuts the introductions short, then flees into the
night.

Aral and Cordelia are slightly curious about the fleeing woman. Just
then the Koudelkas arrive in the middle of a stupendous argument.
Kou is forbidding Kareen from ever returning to this house. Mark is
trailing them doing no good whatsoever.

And here's a moment I love, in the middle of all this disaster:

Commodore Koudelka's eye fell on the returnees as the rolling altercation piled up in the hallway. "Ha?Aral!" he snarled. "Do you realize what your son has been up to?"

The Count blinked. "Which one?" he asked mildly.

Poor lost, unwanted, damaged Mark, even in this horrible moment,
is awed to be so accepted.

The Vorbrettens leave with Olivia and Dono. Aral almost recognises
Dono, but can't quite...

Enrique, looking more distracted than ever, wanders in with a jar and
a Stink-on-a-Stick, "Buggy-buggy...?"

Cordelia pounces on Pym, "...Would you care to explain this scene?"
And for the first time in his life, Pym chickens out, "No, Milady."

Miles flees the scene, leaving Mark to explain it all.

Just remember, this is Barrayar. No matter how bad it seemed, nobody
was bleeding, and everyone survived (despite Miles and Mark's best
attempts to drink and/or eat themselves into oblivion.)













From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 29 14:42:39 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 13:42:39 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9 - Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1651230001.4974.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1651230001.4974.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844289C030F351470A7DF17CEFC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>



So, the dinner party struck a rock and sank with all hands. Poor Aral
and Cordelia came home early for a quiet rest, to find their sons
in the middle of absolute chaos (but again, remember, no bloodshed.
It could have been worse. So much worse.)

Ekaterin - ohhh I feel so sorry for her. And I think she handled it pretty
well, she was so quiet and frozen, and just got out of there. Miles still
doesn't really get how badly he's hurt her - he's more focussed on his
hopes being dashed. A bit egocentric here, Miles.

Dono and Rene have bonded over their troubles with the CoC.

The Koudelkas are in for a resounding argument. Things Will Be
Said. Poor Kou, he wasn't ready for that... but his daughter was on
Beta for a year, and he didn't think that she'd ... ? Seriously?

Pym - first and only time in his life that he chickened out. Not
that I blame him. This is way above his pay grade.

And I'd love to see Gregor reading the ImpSec report on THIS
the next morning.

From fred.fredex at gmail.com  Fri Apr 29 15:40:58 2022
From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:40:58 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Well, we had a good run, but....
In-Reply-To: <CANZuRz50h7M-XU2AVaZP_PgyzNj6FfzrToe82f3dJCUiwb7VgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2f0m6hpnqum9us382gi754ltkdpi65201t@4ax.com>
 <CANZuRz50h7M-XU2AVaZP_PgyzNj6FfzrToe82f3dJCUiwb7VgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF2xExsBzjREvt2vU+L02Gx_-GsP133xCtxO8J2AcPFF_8mchQ@mail.gmail.com>

adding my $0.02, What all the others have said, repeated!

Fred

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:59 AM Cathy M. <cmonblatt at gmail.com> wrote:

> May you both recover quickly and fully
> Cathy
>
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 17:08 Marc Wilson <marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > M'lady and I have the Covids.
> >
> > It's someone on the bad cold/mild flu cusp.
> >
> > Grateful for grocery deliveries, even if they do cock up the odd thing.
> > --
> > When you meet with opposition, even if it should be from your husband or
> > your children, endeavor to overcome it by argument and not by authority,
> > for a victory dependent upon authority is unreal and illusory.
> >   - Bertrand Russell
> >
> > --
> > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to cmonblatt at gmail.com
> > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
> >
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From tlambs1138 at charter.net  Fri Apr 29 18:24:55 2022
From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:24:55 -0700
Subject: [LMB] Well, we had a good run...
Message-ID: <045801d85bee$0ba079c0$22e16d40$@charter.net>

> M'lady and I have the Covids.
> 
> It's someone on the bad cold/mild flu cusp.
> 
> Grateful for grocery deliveries, even if they do cock up the odd thing.

Best wishes for getting well all the way. 

Take it easy!


Jean Lamb
tlambs1138 at charter.net
https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20




From sylviamcivers at gmail.com  Fri Apr 29 19:03:15 2022
From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:03:15 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB38441E4DC7ADA0BFB1893216CEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1651057201.24831.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38441E4DC7ADA0BFB1893216CEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAD6Rr-xR7aXjBFqsGnRyjQnU-n3MjkJz95ERu-igO_YbaGtMfw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 4:19 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Buckle up, folks. Here we go...
>
The Dinner Scene.
The jury is out, a mix of funny & sick-making, or straight-out sick-making?
What do you all think?

Dono and all the Koudelka women share some interesting
> confidences, and a lot of giggles. Soon all the women are listening
> raptly to Dono. It's interesting that nobody in the room is shocked
> or horrified; they're all interested, curious, understanding and
> supportive (well, maybe a bit stunned too, but this group deals
> with it all pretty well.)
>
> So this is not particularly on my day-to-day radar, but I recognize that
for some people, this ', curious, understanding and supportive (well, maybe
a bit stunned too)'   is a huge deal.
Representation matters - not just for Dono/Dona, but for all the people who
say, that's my relative/friend/x, how do I react?



> And here's the first problem: Mark and Ivan rearranged the
> dining table. Which is pretty sneaky, but not a terrible crime.
>
> This part, I admit, is funny.  But dinner hasn't properly Started, yet.

Next up: Surprises at the table. The best crafted stories come in 3s.
The first surprise is the odd seating. Miles is ticked off, Alys raises an
eyebrow.

The second surprise: Butterbugs & their butter Miles is very ticked off,
Ekaterine raises an eyebrow.


> Then Miles realises that the food isn't what he planned. Ahhhh.
> Bug vomit. Ekaterin gets it, too. She copes very well.
>
> I think this is the second surprise, part 2:  EVERYone notices. Thanks,
Enrique.

> Enrique has another lovely surprise for them....three butter bugs. With
> the Vorkosigan
> crest on their backs. Silver edging the wings, like an armsman's uniform.
>
> The armsmen send a mute plea to Miles, for permission to kill
> Enrique. I think they feel the insult even more than Miles.
> ...
>

Mile's saving grace: He notices that Ekaterin is scared, and takes steps to
diffuse the situation for her.

> And Miles remembers that Ekaterin's first husband had a foul
> temper. ...
> Miles, with great self-control, thanks Enrique and suggests that
> he put the girls away. Ekaterin relaxes. Alys is impressed at his
> self-control.
>
>
Surprise part 3, also in two parts:  Surprise relationships.
And here we go downhill, fast.

> "You took my daughter to the Orb?"


pause for Miles finding a private place to throttle Enrique, interrupted by
Ekaterine (but not Kareen)
aaaand, Relationships Surprises, part 2:

> Poor simon puts his foot right in it:
>
> "Speaking of weddings, Madame Vorsoisson, how long has Miles been courting
> you?
> ...
> "Yes, ah, heh, quite, well, so, that reminds me, Madame Vorsoisson, I'd
> been meaning to ask you?will you marry me?"
>


OK, gotta go find a crowbar to peel my shoulders down from around my ears.


Sylvia

From tzbarasc at lasierra.edu  Fri Apr 29 19:30:46 2022
From: tzbarasc at lasierra.edu (Tony Zbaraschuk)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 13:30:46 -0500
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9
In-Reply-To: <CAD6Rr-xR7aXjBFqsGnRyjQnU-n3MjkJz95ERu-igO_YbaGtMfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1651057201.24831.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38441E4DC7ADA0BFB1893216CEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAD6Rr-xR7aXjBFqsGnRyjQnU-n3MjkJz95ERu-igO_YbaGtMfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+x2q7sh6r1XMJrY+Rv5sPCZGAkSBH4OdBb143f8Ap7+bCiSwA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 1:03 PM Sylvia McIvers <sylviamcivers at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 4:19 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> The Dinner Scene.
> The jury is out, a mix of funny & sick-making, or straight-out sick-making?
> What do you all think?
>

It's ... appropriate, but painful.  On my first read it was hysterically
funny.  Every time since then it's been too painful to read.  Miles needed
to have it happen, but ... ouch.


Tony Z

-- 
Tony Zbaraschuk
Bookworm, talker, learner
Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!"

From proto at panix.com  Fri Apr 29 20:49:41 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:49:41 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9 - Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844289C030F351470A7DF17CEFC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1651230001.4974.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844289C030F351470A7DF17CEFC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <F076BE06-F9AB-4BAC-8DA5-1A87BED17A55@panix.com>



> On Apr 29, 2022, at 9:42 AM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> And I'd love to see Gregor reading the ImpSec report on THIS
> the next morning.

Some of us would rather not, as in don?t ask a question you don?t want to hear the answer.
There are no known ImpSec agents at the dinner.

? 
In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. 
Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over."
--tweet by British columnist, Dan Hodges, June 15, 2015?


From proto at panix.com  Fri Apr 29 20:57:29 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:57:29 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9 - Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <F076BE06-F9AB-4BAC-8DA5-1A87BED17A55@panix.com>
References: <mailman.1.1651230001.4974.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844289C030F351470A7DF17CEFC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <F076BE06-F9AB-4BAC-8DA5-1A87BED17A55@panix.com>
Message-ID: <2BC8EE7D-50B0-4A83-A76D-4EED18E7E5AF@panix.com>



> On Apr 29, 2022, at 3:49 PM, WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 29, 2022, at 9:42 AM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com <mailto:gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> And I'd love to see Gregor reading the ImpSec report on THIS
>> the next morning.
> 
> Some of us would rather not, as in don?t ask a question you don?t want to hear the answer.
> There are no known ImpSec agents at the dinner.
> 

Except Alys who we don?t yet know about, By the way. Who is thinking just how do I report this. I presume she has one of the cards
that get direct access to The Gregor. I think a verbal report is appropriate here.

OK, most of the people here can contact The Gregor.


From matt.msg at gmail.com  Fri Apr 29 22:33:38 2022
From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 17:33:38 -0400
Subject: [LMB] Well, we had a good run, but....
In-Reply-To: <CAF2xExsBzjREvt2vU+L02Gx_-GsP133xCtxO8J2AcPFF_8mchQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2f0m6hpnqum9us382gi754ltkdpi65201t@4ax.com>
 <CANZuRz50h7M-XU2AVaZP_PgyzNj6FfzrToe82f3dJCUiwb7VgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF2xExsBzjREvt2vU+L02Gx_-GsP133xCtxO8J2AcPFF_8mchQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAjYNUrTOTheGZuZmY5k9OveUGky9QXS70S-sicyqmnoJteRcQ@mail.gmail.com>

It's the modern version of the chickenpox.

May your sleep not be interrupted and your throat not be sore!

Matt G.

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:41 AM Fred <fred.fredex at gmail.com> wrote:

> adding my $0.02, What all the others have said, repeated!
>
> Fred
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:59 AM Cathy M. <cmonblatt at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > May you both recover quickly and fully
> > Cathy
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 17:08 Marc Wilson <marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > M'lady and I have the Covids.
> > >
> > > It's someone on the bad cold/mild flu cusp.
> > >
> > > Grateful for grocery deliveries, even if they do cock up the odd thing.
> > > --
> > > When you meet with opposition, even if it should be from your husband
> or
> > > your children, endeavor to overcome it by argument and not by
> authority,
> > > for a victory dependent upon authority is unreal and illusory.
> > >   - Bertrand Russell
> > >
> > > --
> > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to cmonblatt at gmail.com
> > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
> > >
> > --
> > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com
> > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
> >
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to matt.msg at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From matt.msg at gmail.com  Fri Apr 29 22:40:14 2022
From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 17:40:14 -0400
Subject: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844CAC791E5201A45C0EC48CEFC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1651230001.4974.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844CAC791E5201A45C0EC48CEFC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAAjYNUoCq+XSsAPrfQws88C43rrrwqSRfEG5O-LD8tiH2Wc8sw@mail.gmail.com>

It's a sign of how much our world has changed that an invasion isn't simply
taken for granted.  Once they would attract interest but not shock - and
often, approval.   There aren't a whole lot of people approving of Russia's
actions right now.

Matt "other than the usual suspects" G.

From wawenri at msn.com  Sat Apr 30 03:27:25 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 02:27:25 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9 - Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB3844289C030F351470A7DF17CEFC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1651230001.4974.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844289C030F351470A7DF17CEFC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB4847AE69054698EC74E41241B4FF9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>



-----Original Message-----
Gwynne Powell

And I'd love to see Gregor reading the ImpSec report on THIS the next morning.
=================================================================
Oh! That is an aspect that I hadn't thought of. Gregor's foster brother, newest imperial auditor, and the first person of the new generation in real power has just put his foot in it.
Later he is ready to plow a certain lieutenant under for his part in the situation.

Still, when Ekaterine first heard about the visit of the Baba, she wasn't quite ready to shoot Miles down. She didn't seem to go homicidal on the issue of being manipulated. 

William A Wenrich
Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me.


From litalex at gmail.com  Sat Apr 30 03:44:04 2022
From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 22:44:04 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9 - Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <CO3PR18MB4847AE69054698EC74E41241B4FF9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.1.1651230001.4974.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB3844289C030F351470A7DF17CEFC9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CO3PR18MB4847AE69054698EC74E41241B4FF9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <41769764-3F05-4140-B260-4DF2007D9CD7@gmail.com>

Hello,

> On Apr 29, 2022, at 22:27, WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com> wrote:
> Still, when Ekaterine first heard about the visit of the Baba, she wasn't quite ready to shoot Miles down. She didn't seem to go homicidal on the issue of being manipulated. 

I think it?s precisely because of the baba that she began to think of all the implications of Miles asking her to design a garden and spending time with her. And then she was admonishing herself for thinking that he was manipulating her. Then it turned out it was precisely what he did. It was hurtful on more than one level at that point.

little Alex

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 30 12:20:06 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:20:06 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1651316401.24575.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1651316401.24575.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384441AC99B28C44B83C5F5FCEFF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: Tony Zbaraschuk <tzbarasc at lasierra.edu>

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 1:03 PM Sylvia McIvers <sylviamcivers at gmail.com>
wrote:
> The Dinner Scene.
> The jury is out, a mix of funny & sick-making, or straight-out sick-making?
> What do you all think?

It's ... appropriate, but painful.  On my first read it was hysterically
funny.  Every time since then it's been too painful to read.  Miles needed
to have it happen, but ... ouch.
Tony Z

Gwynne: On first read I found it so painful that I didn't read the book again
for a while. And, I'm ashamed to admit this, I was mostly focussed on Miles's
humiliation and distress. On later reads, especially after more Komarr rereads,
I was far more empathetic towards Ekaterin. And I was able to notice the small
details, the humour (there's a LOT of humour in this book, I think to leaven
the dinner-party impact.)

Now, I think that it was good that it happened. If Miles had continued his
combat manoeuvres, I think their relationship would have struggled quite
a bit. Miles really needed, and deserved, a big brick - maybe not quite so
humiliating, but close. And one of the great things about Miles is that he does
learn. He can learn, grow and change. And he does. We see it in Memory,
and we see it here, too. Eventually.


From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 30 12:23:51 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:23:51 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9 - Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1651316401.24575.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1651316401.24575.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB384489159038B71A50FD2AA4CEFF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com>


> On Apr 29, 2022, at 9:42 AM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> And I'd love to see Gregor reading the ImpSec report on THIS
> the next morning.

Some of us would rather not, as in don?t ask a question you don?t want to hear the answer.
There are no known ImpSec agents at the dinner.

Gwynne: Alys is an ImpSec agent, and High Vor society  is her specialty. This is
exactly her business. Duv is an ImpSec department head, Kou is a serving officer,
Drou was trained by ImpSec. Georg Vorthys is an Auditor. Gregor has plenty of
 high-level sources if he needs them (and he probably tapped most of them, to
get different perspectives.)

And, if Gregor wants a laugh, he can ask Ivan.

From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 30 12:29:15 2022
From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:29:15 +0000
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9 - Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1651316401.24575.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1651316401.24575.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <SY4P282MB3844C1C2CBBED180B62E45F4CEFF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com>


Gwynne Powell
And I'd love to see Gregor reading the ImpSec report on THIS the next morning.
=================================================================
Oh! That is an aspect that I hadn't thought of. Gregor's foster brother, newest imperial auditor, and the first person of the new generation in real power has just put his foot in it.
Later he is ready to plow a certain lieutenant under for his part in the situation.
Still, when Ekaterine first heard about the visit of the Baba, she wasn't quite ready to shoot Miles down. She didn't seem to go homicidal on the issue of being manipulated.
William A Wenrich

Gwynne: Ekaterin quite liked the idea when she thought the baba was from Miles.
Then she chilled down a lot when she thought he'd been manipulating her. THEN she
realised the baba was from Alexei, and she took herself to task for having such bad
thoughts about Miles. And THEN it turned out that she was right, he was manipulating
her. Plus letting everyone know about it - that's just as much of a betrayal as the garden.

Besides, most people who know Miles feel homicidal at some point. And that's just the
ones who like him. His enemies have even stronger feelings.

From proto at panix.com  Sat Apr 30 13:29:07 2022
From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 08:29:07 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB384441AC99B28C44B83C5F5FCEFF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1651316401.24575.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384441AC99B28C44B83C5F5FCEFF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <573A062A-2DA3-44B0-A9A5-01F35433570F@panix.com>



> On Apr 30, 2022, at 7:20 AM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Now, I think that it was good that it happened. If Miles had continued his
> combat manoeuvres, I think their relationship would have struggled quite
> a bit. Miles really needed, and deserved, a big brick - maybe not quite so
> humiliating, but close.

Mark pointed out the flaw in his strategy, but Miles persisted. Only a brick would
do.

?
As the historical Buddha said, ?Hatred does not stop by hatred at any time; hatred stops only by love. this is an ancient rule.? about 2770 BP (BP means either Before Present or Before Physics that is before nuclear testing made it necessary to adjust carbon 14 dating.









From baur at chello.at  Sat Apr 30 14:19:42 2022
From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 15:19:42 +0200
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9 - Pt 2 - Comments
In-Reply-To: <SY4P282MB384489159038B71A50FD2AA4CEFF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <mailman.1.1651316401.24575.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB384489159038B71A50FD2AA4CEFF9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <38bef953-bc22-5e6b-1f7a-0a1d0592897a@chello.at>



Am 30.04.2022 um 13:23 schrieb Gwynne Powell:
> From: WalterStuartBushell <proto at panix.com>
> 
> 
>> On Apr 29, 2022, at 9:42 AM, Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> And I'd love to see Gregor reading the ImpSec report on THIS
>> the next morning.
> 
> Some of us would rather not, as in don?t ask a question you don?t want to hear the answer.
> There are no known ImpSec agents at the dinner.
> 
> Gwynne: Alys is an ImpSec agent, and High Vor society  is her specialty. This is
> exactly her business. Duv is an ImpSec department head, Kou is a serving officer,
> Drou was trained by ImpSec. Georg Vorthys is an Auditor. Gregor has plenty of
>   high-level sources if he needs them (and he probably tapped most of them, to
> get different perspectives.)
> 
> And, if Gregor wants a laugh, he can ask Ivan.

he probably NEEDS a laugh after hearing these news ..

servus

markus

From lmb at matija.com  Sat Apr 30 17:05:30 2022
From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 17:05:30 +0100
Subject: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes
In-Reply-To: <645ED7DE-A3E2-41D7-AAED-8EA0AB6F97BE@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2307.1651217627.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <645ED7DE-A3E2-41D7-AAED-8EA0AB6F97BE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9a56cfd8-e267-bd16-6b94-22f4a83f6b5a@matija.com>

On 29/04/2022 09:09, Sharon Micenko wrote:
> I have just finished re-reading Shards of Honour and right at the end when they are discussing the dead Cordelia reminds Aral not to forget the Escobaran and Betan dead. I don?t think she was just talking about Lt Rosemont.

The dead deserve mourning even when they are few in number, they are no 
less dead. The loss for their families is no lesser for not being shared 
with other families.

>   There were more Betans in the conflict apart from her decoy and the three freighters.

OK, but when? The decoy and the three freighters were the first that got 
in through the wormhole - that trick would not have worked twice.

On the other hand, now that you mention it,? there are more Betans in 
the internment camp on Sergyar, presumably more than just Cordelia's 
crew. (But not a lot more). They couldn't have come from the freighters, 
those got through. If they had not, Escobar would fall and Ezar's plan 
would fail. So where did these prisoners come from?

I don't remember Shards saying anything on that subject. Since you read 
it more recently, do you?

> My married name is Ukrainian. I?m not one myself, but my in-laws certainly are and were. We don?t have immediate family in Ukraine but that?s because Stalin starved them all to death. The family ended up in Australia running away a second time after the Second World War. And now there are twelve million people running away again.
>
> It doesn?t really stop, does it?

I do not have family connection to Ukraine, but I do remember what it is 
like when an army targets civilians, but during the Yugoslav wars and 
what my family told me of the events of WW2. Yeah, it really doesn't stop.

 ?But every death leaves a hole in someone's life, and deserves to be 
remembered. And the killers deserve to be fought against, and if 
possible tried and punished.

From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net  Sat Apr 30 17:59:03 2022
From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 09:59:03 -0700
Subject: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes
In-Reply-To: <9a56cfd8-e267-bd16-6b94-22f4a83f6b5a@matija.com>
References: <mailman.2307.1651217627.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <645ED7DE-A3E2-41D7-AAED-8EA0AB6F97BE@gmail.com>
 <9a56cfd8-e267-bd16-6b94-22f4a83f6b5a@matija.com>
Message-ID: <9B447868-722F-4A59-97E5-B01290926562@comcast.net>

On Apr 30, 2022, at 9:05 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> On 29/04/2022 09:09, Sharon Micenko wrote:
>> I have just finished re-reading Shards of Honour and right at the end when they are discussing the dead Cordelia reminds Aral not to forget the Escobaran and Betan dead. I don?t think she was just talking about Lt Rosemont.
> 
> The dead deserve mourning even when they are few in number, they are no less dead. The loss for their families is no lesser for not being shared with other families.
> 
>>  There were more Betans in the conflict apart from her decoy and the three freighters.
> 
> OK, but when? The decoy and the three freighters were the first that got in through the wormhole - that trick would not have worked twice.
> 
> On the other hand, now that you mention it,  there are more Betans in the internment camp on Sergyar, presumably more than just Cordelia's crew. (But not a lot more). They couldn't have come from the freighters, those got through. If they had not, Escobar would fall and Ezar's plan would fail. So where did these prisoners come from?
> 

I thought of two possibilities: ships that were in-system when the Barrayaran invasion started and ships that entered via the wormhole before it was blockaded.

"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
?-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com


From fred.fredex at gmail.com  Sat Apr 30 18:39:59 2022
From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 13:39:59 -0400
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9
In-Reply-To: <CAD6Rr-xR7aXjBFqsGnRyjQnU-n3MjkJz95ERu-igO_YbaGtMfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1651057201.24831.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <SY4P282MB38441E4DC7ADA0BFB1893216CEFD9@SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAD6Rr-xR7aXjBFqsGnRyjQnU-n3MjkJz95ERu-igO_YbaGtMfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF2xExt1tpNYQ7jERn-EeySZg8VLrbmFqZ2_FVSGO0F7UTEX-A@mail.gmail.com>

"diffuse"

<spelling police>
Did you mean "defuse" ?
</spelling police>

:=)




On Fri, Apr 29, 2022, 14:03 Sylvia McIvers <sylviamcivers at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 4:19 AM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Buckle up, folks. Here we go...
> >
> The Dinner Scene.
> The jury is out, a mix of funny & sick-making, or straight-out sick-making?
> What do you all think?
>
> Dono and all the Koudelka women share some interesting
> > confidences, and a lot of giggles. Soon all the women are listening
> > raptly to Dono. It's interesting that nobody in the room is shocked
> > or horrified; they're all interested, curious, understanding and
> > supportive (well, maybe a bit stunned too, but this group deals
> > with it all pretty well.)
> >
> > So this is not particularly on my day-to-day radar, but I recognize that
> for some people, this ', curious, understanding and supportive (well, maybe
> a bit stunned too)'   is a huge deal.
> Representation matters - not just for Dono/Dona, but for all the people who
> say, that's my relative/friend/x, how do I react?
>
>
>
> > And here's the first problem: Mark and Ivan rearranged the
> > dining table. Which is pretty sneaky, but not a terrible crime.
> >
> > This part, I admit, is funny.  But dinner hasn't properly Started, yet.
>
> Next up: Surprises at the table. The best crafted stories come in 3s.
> The first surprise is the odd seating. Miles is ticked off, Alys raises an
> eyebrow.
>
> The second surprise: Butterbugs & their butter Miles is very ticked off,
> Ekaterine raises an eyebrow.
>
>
> > Then Miles realises that the food isn't what he planned. Ahhhh.
> > Bug vomit. Ekaterin gets it, too. She copes very well.
> >
> > I think this is the second surprise, part 2:  EVERYone notices. Thanks,
> Enrique.
>
> > Enrique has another lovely surprise for them....three butter bugs. With
> > the Vorkosigan
> > crest on their backs. Silver edging the wings, like an armsman's uniform.
> >
> > The armsmen send a mute plea to Miles, for permission to kill
> > Enrique. I think they feel the insult even more than Miles.
> > ...
> >
>
> Mile's saving grace: He notices that Ekaterin is scared, and takes steps to
> diffuse the situation for her.
>
> > And Miles remembers that Ekaterin's first husband had a foul
> > temper. ...
> > Miles, with great self-control, thanks Enrique and suggests that
> > he put the girls away. Ekaterin relaxes. Alys is impressed at his
> > self-control.
> >
> >
> Surprise part 3, also in two parts:  Surprise relationships.
> And here we go downhill, fast.
>
> > "You took my daughter to the Orb?"
>
>
> pause for Miles finding a private place to throttle Enrique, interrupted by
> Ekaterine (but not Kareen)
> aaaand, Relationships Surprises, part 2:
>
> > Poor simon puts his foot right in it:
> >
> > "Speaking of weddings, Madame Vorsoisson, how long has Miles been
> courting
> > you?
> > ...
> > "Yes, ah, heh, quite, well, so, that reminds me, Madame Vorsoisson, I'd
> > been meaning to ask you?will you marry me?"
> >
>
>
> OK, gotta go find a crowbar to peel my shoulders down from around my ears.
>
>
> Sylvia
> --
> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com
> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold
>

From wawenri at msn.com  Sat Apr 30 18:56:33 2022
From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 17:56:33 +0000
Subject: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes
In-Reply-To: <9a56cfd8-e267-bd16-6b94-22f4a83f6b5a@matija.com>
References: <mailman.2307.1651217627.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
 <645ED7DE-A3E2-41D7-AAED-8EA0AB6F97BE@gmail.com>
 <9a56cfd8-e267-bd16-6b94-22f4a83f6b5a@matija.com>
Message-ID: <CO3PR18MB4847DF996264E947C75792C3B4FF9@CO3PR18MB4847.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

There were likely more than a few Betans on Escobar before the conflict started. As I see it the timeline starts when Cordelia gets back from the then unnamed Sergyar.
Aral gets back to Barrayar and Ezra obscures the fact that they have lost complete surprise.
There was a window for at least some Betan military to get to Escobar before the blockade.

William A Wenrich

  *   A sinner dependent on God?s grace.

________________________________
From: Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2022 10:05:30 AM
To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Cc: Matija Grabnar <lmb at matija.com>
Subject: Re: [LMB] These people are fighting for their homes

On 29/04/2022 09:09, Sharon Micenko wrote:
> I have just finished re-reading Shards of Honour and right at the end when they are discussing the dead Cordelia reminds Aral not to forget the Escobaran and Betan dead. I don?t think she was just talking about Lt Rosemont.

The dead deserve mourning even when they are few in number, they are no
less dead. The loss for their families is no lesser for not being shared
with other families.

>   There were more Betans in the conflict apart from her decoy and the three freighters.

OK, but when? The decoy and the three freighters were the first that got
in through the wormhole - that trick would not have worked twice.

On the other hand, now that you mention it,  there are more Betans in
the internment camp on Sergyar, presumably more than just Cordelia's
crew. (But not a lot more). They couldn't have come from the freighters,
those got through. If they had not, Escobar would fall and Ezar's plan
would fail. So where did these prisoners come from?

I don't remember Shards saying anything on that subject. Since you read
it more recently, do you?

> My married name is Ukrainian. I?m not one myself, but my in-laws certainly are and were. We don?t have immediate family in Ukraine but that?s because Stalin starved them all to death. The family ended up in Australia running away a second time after the Second World War. And now there are twelve million people running away again.
>
> It doesn?t really stop, does it?

I do not have family connection to Ukraine, but I do remember what it is
like when an army targets civilians, but during the Yugoslav wars and
what my family told me of the events of WW2. Yeah, it really doesn't stop.

  But every death leaves a hole in someone's life, and deserves to be
remembered. And the killers deserve to be fought against, and if
possible tried and punished.
--
Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com
Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&amp;data=05%7C01%7C%7C10a9f8b9609f4431709e08da2ac3555c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637869315692573851%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=7tx7X%2BeUJTWejkqSxAv3DDmirdPmTmL1%2BKtMKRHbxt8%3D&amp;reserved=0

From ftomasek at storm.co.za  Sat Apr 30 19:46:11 2022
From: ftomasek at storm.co.za (Franz Tomasek (Home))
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 20:46:11 +0200
Subject: [LMB] Well, we had a good run, but....
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2311.1651255413.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <202204301856.23UIuR0V022251-23UIuR0X022251@fortimail-02.voxtelecom.co.za>

Salvete

On 29/04/22 
   at 12:03 PM, "Cathy M." <cmonblatt at gmail.com> said:

>May you both recover quickly and fully

>On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 17:08 Marc Wilson <marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk>
>wrote:

>> M'lady and I have the Covids.

Full alignment with Cathy's wishes.

Valete
Franz
  

From ftomasek at storm.co.za  Sat Apr 30 19:41:32 2022
From: ftomasek at storm.co.za (Franz Tomasek (Home))
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 20:41:32 +0200
Subject: [LMB] A Civil Campaign - Ch 9
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2311.1651255413.1162.lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <202204301856.23UIuSex002703-23UIuSf1002703@fortimail-01.voxtelecom.co.za>

Salvete

On 29/04/22 
   at 06:03 PM, Sylvia McIvers <sylviamcivers at gmail.com> said:

>OK, gotta go find a crowbar to peel my shoulders down from around my
>ears.

Ah, a kindred soul when it comes to a reaction to this chapter... {:->)

Valete
Franz