From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 00:47:44 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 19:47:44 -0400 Subject: [LMB] What Lois has been doing in her spare time... In-Reply-To: <1256951802.92581.1656540437693@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1256951802.92581.1656540437693@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Huh. I thought "Penric" was what was going on in the free time. Does that series not count as a hobby? Matt G. From saffronrose at me.com Fri Jul 1 03:53:13 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 19:53:13 -0700 Subject: [LMB] What Lois has been doing in her spare time... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 30, 2022, at 4:46 PM, Matthew George wrote: > > ?Huh. I thought "Penric" was what was going on in the free time. Does that > series not count as a hobby? I?d say the Penric series was work, and a gift of enjoyment to her readers. Some hobbies earn you a living, but it?s usually work that does that. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From proto at panix.com Fri Jul 1 05:43:55 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 00:43:55 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: <5D86A25F-E681-4790-851E-802058EB1922@brazee.net> References: <5D86A25F-E681-4790-851E-802058EB1922@brazee.net> Message-ID: <3D938659-A2AF-4074-B89B-A2152B455396@panix.com> > On Jun 30, 2022, at 10:20 AM, Howard Brazee wrote: > > I like to imagine some future archeologist digging through the remains of a golf course lake with all of those buried golf balls? Team sports involving balls originated in the new world as religious rituals among people with acess to rubber. Obviously those ball are religious in nature. ? A unix salesperson, Lenore Loved her job, but loved the beach more. She devised such a way to combine work and play: She sells C-shells by the seashore. From proto at panix.com Fri Jul 1 05:46:07 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 00:46:07 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <994B2EFC-0ADD-4653-AF59-25926DCB2E90@panix.com> > On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:00 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > I can envisage a future archeologist (evolved from bears, perhaps) > attributing their popularity to "ritual purposes" - the truth eluding > them because, after all, they're not in the woods. Hence, ?Digging the Weans." ? It is wrong, always, everywhere, and for everyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.? ?W. K. Clifford (1845?1879), ?The Ethics? My take is belief should be proportional to the evidence. From proto at panix.com Fri Jul 1 05:49:36 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 00:49:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Winter Solstice: Southern Edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8EBE8E1E-A959-4AFE-A17C-D40CA7CFCC17@panix.com> > On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:27 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > To be blunt about it, I've never seen why any (Western) Christian would > have any particular objection to the Anglican Communion. I'm an atheist, > but if I had to start going to church again for some reason, I'd be > perfectly comfortable in my local Episcopal Church, despite having been > raised Lutheran. Some would object because its doctrines are not that rigid or being to bland. ? Sig of no sig. From proto at panix.com Fri Jul 1 06:11:26 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 01:11:26 -0400 Subject: [LMB] The Bioestheties Show In-Reply-To: References: <620580840.456207.1656584038061@webmail.mymagenta.at> Message-ID: > On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:55 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > My late best friend was a major cat-lover, and after the first reading, > always skipped this chapter because of the kitten tree. Ah, I like Miles? comment to the effect of it didn?t seem bad compared to the way cats are normally born.This is new point for Uterine Replicators. I wonder will kittens in the future be developed in Uterine Replicators? Blessed are the cheesemakers, for they lead the whey.?Allan Richardson From beatrice_otter at zoho.com Fri Jul 1 06:14:01 2022 From: beatrice_otter at zoho.com (Beatrice Otter) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 22:14:01 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: <994B2EFC-0ADD-4653-AF59-25926DCB2E90@panix.com> References: <994B2EFC-0ADD-4653-AF59-25926DCB2E90@panix.com> Message-ID: <181b82e2614.c2f2e536210697.6616827221888529509@zoho.com> ---- On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 21:46:07 -0700 WalterStuartBushell wrote --- > On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:00 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > I can envisage a future archeologist (evolved from bears, perhaps) > attributing their popularity to "ritual purposes" - the truth eluding > them because, after all, they're not in the woods. Hence, ?Digging the Weans." Beatrice Otter: Anybody interested in archaeology and anthropology, what we can learn from the archaeological and ethnographic and historical record (and what we can't know), and the unhelpful ways in which we try to shoehorn the data into our pre-existing ideas of how it "must" have worked, should read The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity by David Graeber and David Wengrow. It is entertaining to read, comprehensive, and exhaustively sourced. Also, if you like to try your hand at SF/F worldbuilding and creating fictional societies, it will give you a *lot* of interesting grist for your mill. Beatrice Otter From proto at panix.com Fri Jul 1 06:19:49 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 01:19:49 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7B051074-10A1-46B7-BBCF-3CEC7E208CB5@panix.com> > On Jun 30, 2022, at 12:31 PM, Margaret Dean wrote: > > In any case the implication is that there are strict poetic forms involved; > whether they're more like sonnets or like haiku we're not told. Limericks. ? In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over." --tweet by British columnist, Dan Hodges, June 15, 2015? From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 07:20:01 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 01:20:01 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cool! I hope they enjoyed Germany and Scotland. I miss Germany once in awhile. I hope they had a chance to sample German dishes and explore a few castles. On Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 9:08 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Hazel and Anna are back from Germany and Scotland. They are now spending > about twelve hours a day, five days a week, at my house. They each have > grown almost an inch in the last month. > My biggest problem is getting them to do something that doesn't involve a > screen. > I bought some lawn games and I'd like to take them swimming a couple of > days a week. I would really like to get Anna into swimming classes. > Yesterday we went to the library where Emma is volunteering. (She is only > in the eighth grade but insists that she will major in library science.) > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 07:23:11 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 01:23:11 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosian Tea Party In-Reply-To: References: <15fdd0fa.36c6.181b19327ac.Webtop.99@btinternet.com> Message-ID: I'm still not sure what time the tea party will occur. On Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 10:59 AM Lois Aleta Fundis wrote: > I have an app on my Kindle, and a similar one on my iPhone, that will tell > you the current time in various time zones. > > As I began to type this, this app said it was 3:51 GMT, which is 11:51 am > in the US Eastern Time Zone, where I live, 4:51 British Summer Time, 8:51 > PM in California,and 1:51 AM in Sydney, Australia (among other places).. > > Because time keeps moving, as it does, and I had to stop and fix typos and > such, it's now 11:58 AM here, almost noon. > > On Wed, Jun 29, 2022 at 6:27 PM kate.soley.barton via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > I would love to come to the Tea Party. Please would you let me know the > time difference between the party and British Summer Time? > > Kate Barton > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to loisaletafundis at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > -- > Lois Aleta Fundis > loisaletafundis at gmail.com > > [image: image.png] > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Jul 1 08:02:45 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 07:02:45 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Miles is down in the bowels of the embassy (why are the security personnel always put in the basement?) Vorreedi's office is much nicer than you'd expect, with beautiful Cetagandan artworks here and there. Vorreedi is apparently a collector when he's not being a spy. He's dressed in his Ceta outfit, as usual - except for the lack of face paint he'd pass as a ghem (does he wear face paint when he's out spying on things?) The interview that follows is very frustrating for Vorreedi, which is pretty standard for anyone dealing with Miles. (Does Miles know any other way to deal with superior officers?) Vorreedi is outranked only by Vorob'yev, and both of them were specially chosen because they are VERY good at what they do. Not good news for Miles. Vorreedi's done his homework. Miles is listed as a courier officer, but every other courier reports to the Head of ImpSec Communications on Komarr. Miles reports directly to Simon Illyan. And he reports directly to the Emperor himself; a very short chain of command. And why is that? Miles does some fast tapdancing, and plays the nepotism card, and the poor- little-mutie card, too (he doesn't realise it, but this is Aral's approach to the Butcher tag; you've paid for it, use it.) Miles is the one who does the trivial or embarrassing tasks for the Emperor, his foster-brother. Things that a real courier wouldn't be asked to do. But it gives poor little Miles a job and an identity. Self-respect. Even if it is just a very minor and unimportant see-I-don't-matter-at-all job. Vorreedi's comment, "That's a good explanation" isn't really reassuring. Of course, if he were a real covert agent, that'd be a wonderful cover. (If he were "...on a mission from God..." which is such a cute way to refer to Simon. And he's serious.) But then he'd have some paperwork telling his temporary superior - oh yes, that'd be Vorreedi - to render all assistance. Miles first thought is that he has to get Vorreedi under control. Miles thinks from the top down. Always. He hints that there's a suspected leak at the Embassy. Possibly. Not that a lowly courier would know. And a lowly courier can't ask questions. Vorreedi comments that Miles asks a lot of questions. Miles has 'proof' of what he says; all other couriers have an induced FastPenta allergy; due to his status that hasn't happened to him, so obviously he can only be used for unimportant missions. Vorreedi says that Miles's answers are very convincing. Miles says that they wouldn't be much good if they weren't. (I love the duel between these two.) Miles does tell poor, confused Vorreedi that he'll be making a full report to Simon when he gets back to Barrayar. Vorreedi can apply to Simon for answers. And, technically, Miles hasn't told any lies - that could be useful if this ends with a court-martial. He's so good at tiptoeing through a minefield. So Vorreedi now thinks either that Miles is a low-level courier, or that he's a high-level operative. Either way Miles will have more freedom to move and complete his mission. Teeny problem; his mission isn't an official assignment. Miles also points out that you don't hire a genius to solve a problem, then micro- manage him and get in his way. You just turn him loose. If you want someone to follow orders, you hire an idiot. (Fortunately, in Miles's eyes at least, they sent both to Cetaganda for this mission.) So does Miles consider himself a genius? Well, his evaluations are in his file. Yes, that's why they're having this interview (as opposed to ... what? Shackling him to the wall in his quarters?) Vorreedi muses: no rules at all? Well, one rule - deliver results or else. And he's been doing this job (whatever it is) for three years. So; authority and autonomy? No, no authority, just responsibility. Vorreedi is sympathetic about that. One day Vorreedi will find out exactly what this frustrating little courier is really doing. He'd never in his wildest dreams imagine the Dendarii fleet. And being Miles he starts asking questions; did Yenaro survive? Well, he was seen leaving the Moon Garden Hall with a rolled-up carpet. The assassin was picked up by the police soon after on an outstanding warrant - there was an anonymous tip. He didn't have time to report to his bosses before he was arrested. So Lord X has no idea what's going on right now; Yenaro has vanished, the assassin hasn't reported. So how is Lord X going to dispose of Miles and Ivan now? He needs to tie the Barrayarans to his scheme somehow. Miles does know that Lord X is running out of time, and that he could make a mistake soon, out of frustration. Miles doesn't share his thoughts with Vorreedi; it would upset him. How thoughtful of Miles to avoid that. Vorreedi does ask that Miles and Ivan have no more contact with Yenaro. Oh, and he called Miles to the office for another reason: Ghem-Colonel Benin wants another interview. He wants to speak with Ivan at the same time. And he's on his way right now. Oh, goodie. Vorreedi has one more comment: how does Ivan fit into all this? His career is totally transparent, there's no way he's any kind of agent. "A lot of people are baffled by Ivan, sir. But . . . sometimes, even a genius needs someone who can follow orders." ...Miles depends on Ivan more than he'll admit. And Ivan is, in his own way, as deceptive as Miles. He's actually slightly better than Miles at being covert. Miles scurries off to have a quick word with Ivan. And after this he'll have to assume that Vorreedi has turned the bugs on in their quarters, so they'll need to be more careful. Ivan is surveying a handful of sweetly scented invitations - he's been doing his best to improve relations with the Cetagandans. Ivan greets the news of the interview with Benin with delight; he so wants to confess all and get free of the situation. Er, no. Miles will do the talking; Ivan just has to agree. Miles suspects that Benin has found out about their first contact with the Ba Lura. They'll have to give as many real facts as possible. "Real facts. As opposed to what other kind of facts?" Just don't mention the Great Key, or Rian. Ivan points out that Vorreedi and Vorob'yev are NOT going to be happy about this. Miles says he has Vorreedi under control, for now. He thinks Miles is on a mission from Simon. Ivan knows that this means that he isn't. "I am now. Or I would be, if Illyan knew what I know. Bring that nerve disruptor. But don't pull it out unless I tell you to." "I am not shooting your commanding officer for you." ....Not an entirely unlikely situation. But anyway, Vorreedi isn't his commander. That might be important if things go wrong. "....But you have to stay absolutely cool. I may be completely off-base, and panicking prematurely." "I don't think so. I think you're panicking post-maturely. In fact, if you were panicking any later it would be practically posthumously. I've been panicking for days."...Don't you love Ivan? He actually has a pretty good grasp of the situation. Ivan starts running through old memories again; this time the escape tunnel that Miles wanted them to dig when they were eight; of course Ivan did most of the work, and was in the tunnel when it collapsed. Bothari got him out; in minutes, according to Miles. Hours according to Ivan. (I wonder if that resonated with the pumping-station- trauma, later?) Frankly I'm surprised that Alys let Ivan play with Miles much when they were kids; or were all the disasters seen as normal for a Barrayaran boy? Although after the tunnel collapse, apparently Cordelia calmed Alys down - but then Cordelia was Betan Survey, the most crazed risk-takers from her planet. Ivan wants to know who'll dig him out now that Bothari is gone. A shivery moment. Miles can't afford any distractions. He wants Ivan to just follow orders. (And there's a bit of an echo there, too. That defence doesn't always work terribly well.) Part 2 later. From celticdragonfly at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 08:05:28 2022 From: celticdragonfly at gmail.com (Laura Gallagher) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 02:05:28 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: AKICOTL: St Cloud, MN Message-ID: Hey all - So I haven't been sticking my head in here much for quite a while, sorry... life, you know? But I find myself in a situation where y'all might have helpful answers, that I trust far more than just asking the internet at random. Can anybody give me their opinions on St. Cloud as a place to live? Thanks much, Laura From lmb at matija.com Fri Jul 1 08:24:33 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 08:24:33 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Life imitates Vorkosigan family sayings In-Reply-To: References: <5gibbh57mg385jeri5e1090gogir095hmt@4ax.com> <5eed1da8-d3fe-7cf4-3571-fe49311bba62@matija.com> Message-ID: On 30/06/2022 22:01, Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold wrote: > On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 7:24 AM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > >> Eisenhower never commanded a unit under fire, but boy, he was brilliant >> at organizing logistics and training and planning. >> I'm betting that if the positions of Eisenhower and Patton were >> exchanged, things would not having gone anywhere nearly as well. >> > Tend to agree. Especially in coalition warfare, managing politics and > logistics is a HUGE part of the job, because without those working right, > nobody ever gets to the battlefield in the first place. And Eisenhower had > served under MacArthur for several years in the 1930s -- you might consider > that as a post-graduate course in how to deal with egomaniacs. Marlborough > in the 1690s-1710s is another example of somebody who, while good on the > battlefield, was even more important because of their ability to manage > coalitions and politics. > > As far as commanding units under fire, basically almost nobody in the US > army in 1941 had had that experience - most of the WW I vets had aged out > of command age, and even those (like MacArthur) who had been combat leaders > had been very junior combat leaders, captains and majors rather than > generals. Well, you won't have generals who were generals during the last war, unless the next war follows very quickly. But my point was that, for instance, Patton was a captain in France, MacArthur was a colonel with the 42nd ("Rainbow") division in France, and George C. Marshall was a colonel with the 1st division in France. Eisenhower was in charge of training in the US. But then, Omar Bradley guarded copper mines in Montana, an even worse assignment. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Jul 1 08:26:47 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 07:26:47 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This chapter has some wonderful moments, of Miles tapdancing through a minefield. He's truthful but not honest with Vorreedi - and that poor man is doing his best, but he never had a chance against Miles, really. I like Vorreedi; he's extremely good at his job, he's smart and careful. And we see him moving through the stages that most of Miles's superiors go through, (like the five stages of grief, only this is the stages of Miles.) Introduction - questioning - suspicion - frustration - homicidal mania - grudging admiration. Then we see Miles and Ivan, and again their conversation is a delight. Ivan has so many strong memories of his childhood - it's really amazing that he survived Miles. Frankly, he had a great grounding in survival. He'd experienced more before he even joined the military than most of them go through in their entire careers. And he has is own defence mechanisms. And Miles needs Ivan. Miles is the wild genius - but he needs a support network. Ivan's had his back since they were born. Miles is extremely good at carrying on a discussion while keeping the recorders and wider audience in mind: he does it with the first interview with Benin, and with the Vorreedi discussion. (Ivan does the same later, in CVA.) And Miles has another discussion, with himself, running in his head - give him credit, he doesn't lie to himself. I love the defence that Simon WOULD have ordered him to do all of this, if he knew the situation. It's pretty much his default mode. Spare a thought for Simon, who gets Miles's reports after situations like this, and has to deal with them. And you have to wonder; how did Miles go all the way through his career without anyone throttling him? Vorob'yev, Vorreedi and Benin (and Ivan) all have to supress some perfectly understandable homicidal impulses towards Miles in this book - and they're the ones on his side. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 17:50:15 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 11:50:15 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If Miles is a Spark (as in *Girl Genius*) Ivan is his chief minion. On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 2:27 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > This chapter has some wonderful moments, of Miles tapdancing through a > minefield. He's truthful but not honest with Vorreedi - and that poor man > is > doing his best, but he never had a chance against Miles, really. > > I like Vorreedi; he's extremely good at his job, he's smart and careful. > And we > see him moving through the stages that most of Miles's superiors go > through, > (like the five stages of grief, only this is the stages of Miles.) > Introduction - > questioning - suspicion - frustration - homicidal mania - grudging > admiration. > > Then we see Miles and Ivan, and again their conversation is a delight. Ivan > has so many strong memories of his childhood - it's really amazing that he > survived Miles. Frankly, he had a great grounding in survival. He'd > experienced > more before he even joined the military than most of them go through in > their entire careers. And he has is own defence mechanisms. And Miles needs > Ivan. Miles is the wild genius - but he needs a support network. Ivan's had > his back since they were born. > > Miles is extremely good at carrying on a discussion while keeping the > recorders > and wider audience in mind: he does it with the first interview with > Benin, and > with the Vorreedi discussion. (Ivan does the same later, in CVA.) And > Miles has > another discussion, with himself, running in his head - give him credit, > he doesn't > lie to himself. > > I love the defence that Simon WOULD have ordered him to do all of this, if > he > knew the situation. It's pretty much his default mode. > > Spare a thought for Simon, who gets Miles's reports after situations like > this, > and has to deal with them. > > And you have to wonder; how did Miles go all the way through his career > without > anyone throttling him? Vorob'yev, Vorreedi and Benin (and Ivan) all have to > supress some perfectly understandable homicidal impulses towards Miles in > this > book - and they're the ones on his side. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From baur at chello.at Fri Jul 1 17:53:41 2022 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 18:53:41 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56162b16-1b9c-4f2f-0647-58cd5ec8d787@chello.at> thumbs up .. servus markus Am 01.07.2022 um 18:50 schrieb Eric Oppen: > If Miles is a Spark (as in *Girl Genius*) Ivan is his chief minion. > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 2:27 AM Gwynne Powell > wrote: > >> >> >> This chapter has some wonderful moments, of Miles tapdancing through a >> minefield. He's truthful but not honest with Vorreedi - and that poor man >> is >> doing his best, but he never had a chance against Miles, really. >> >> I like Vorreedi; he's extremely good at his job, he's smart and careful. >> And we >> see him moving through the stages that most of Miles's superiors go >> through, >> (like the five stages of grief, only this is the stages of Miles.) >> Introduction - >> questioning - suspicion - frustration - homicidal mania - grudging >> admiration. >> >> Then we see Miles and Ivan, and again their conversation is a delight. Ivan >> has so many strong memories of his childhood - it's really amazing that he >> survived Miles. Frankly, he had a great grounding in survival. He'd >> experienced >> more before he even joined the military than most of them go through in >> their entire careers. And he has is own defence mechanisms. And Miles needs >> Ivan. Miles is the wild genius - but he needs a support network. Ivan's had >> his back since they were born. >> >> Miles is extremely good at carrying on a discussion while keeping the >> recorders >> and wider audience in mind: he does it with the first interview with >> Benin, and >> with the Vorreedi discussion. (Ivan does the same later, in CVA.) And >> Miles has >> another discussion, with himself, running in his head - give him credit, >> he doesn't >> lie to himself. >> >> I love the defence that Simon WOULD have ordered him to do all of this, if >> he >> knew the situation. It's pretty much his default mode. >> >> Spare a thought for Simon, who gets Miles's reports after situations like >> this, >> and has to deal with them. >> >> And you have to wonder; how did Miles go all the way through his career >> without >> anyone throttling him? Vorob'yev, Vorreedi and Benin (and Ivan) all have to >> supress some perfectly understandable homicidal impulses towards Miles in >> this >> book - and they're the ones on his side. >> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 17:55:49 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 11:55:49 -0500 Subject: [LMB] The Bioestheties Show In-Reply-To: References: <620580840.456207.1656584038061@webmail.mymagenta.at> Message-ID: I wonder---do they ripen or just stay where they are? One of the many weird peoples in the Oz books were plant people who grew on vines, and when ripe, would be plucked and suddenly become fully functional people. I think it was in *Dorothy and the Wizard in Oz, *but it's been decades since I read those books and I could be mistaken. On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 12:11 AM WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > > > On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:55 AM, Eric Oppen > wrote: > > > > My late best friend was a major cat-lover, and after the first reading, > > always skipped this chapter because of the kitten tree. > > Ah, I like Miles? comment to the effect of it didn?t seem bad compared to > the way cats are normally born.This is new point for Uterine Replicators. > > I wonder will kittens in the future be developed in Uterine Replicators? > > Blessed are the cheesemakers, for they lead the whey.?Allan Richardson > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 17:57:58 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 11:57:58 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Comments In-Reply-To: <56162b16-1b9c-4f2f-0647-58cd5ec8d787@chello.at> References: <56162b16-1b9c-4f2f-0647-58cd5ec8d787@chello.at> Message-ID: I can so see Miles, creating a huge explosion, and saying "BWAHAHAHA! I meant to do that!" I'd love to introduce him to Agatha Heterodyne and see what happened. >From a nice safe distance, with safe companionship. Like Bangladesh Dupree. Maybe introduce Ivan to Bang and see what happened. On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 11:53 AM Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > thumbs up .. > > servus > > markus > > Am 01.07.2022 um 18:50 schrieb Eric Oppen: > > If Miles is a Spark (as in *Girl Genius*) Ivan is his chief minion. > > > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 2:27 AM Gwynne Powell > > wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> This chapter has some wonderful moments, of Miles tapdancing through a > >> minefield. He's truthful but not honest with Vorreedi - and that poor > man > >> is > >> doing his best, but he never had a chance against Miles, really. > >> > >> I like Vorreedi; he's extremely good at his job, he's smart and careful. > >> And we > >> see him moving through the stages that most of Miles's superiors go > >> through, > >> (like the five stages of grief, only this is the stages of Miles.) > >> Introduction - > >> questioning - suspicion - frustration - homicidal mania - grudging > >> admiration. > >> > >> Then we see Miles and Ivan, and again their conversation is a delight. > Ivan > >> has so many strong memories of his childhood - it's really amazing that > he > >> survived Miles. Frankly, he had a great grounding in survival. He'd > >> experienced > >> more before he even joined the military than most of them go through in > >> their entire careers. And he has is own defence mechanisms. And Miles > needs > >> Ivan. Miles is the wild genius - but he needs a support network. Ivan's > had > >> his back since they were born. > >> > >> Miles is extremely good at carrying on a discussion while keeping the > >> recorders > >> and wider audience in mind: he does it with the first interview with > >> Benin, and > >> with the Vorreedi discussion. (Ivan does the same later, in CVA.) And > >> Miles has > >> another discussion, with himself, running in his head - give him credit, > >> he doesn't > >> lie to himself. > >> > >> I love the defence that Simon WOULD have ordered him to do all of this, > if > >> he > >> knew the situation. It's pretty much his default mode. > >> > >> Spare a thought for Simon, who gets Miles's reports after situations > like > >> this, > >> and has to deal with them. > >> > >> And you have to wonder; how did Miles go all the way through his career > >> without > >> anyone throttling him? Vorob'yev, Vorreedi and Benin (and Ivan) all > have to > >> supress some perfectly understandable homicidal impulses towards Miles > in > >> this > >> book - and they're the ones on his side. > >> > >> -- > >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > >> > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From baur at chello.at Fri Jul 1 18:01:44 2022 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 19:01:44 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Fwd: Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87862a7c-82ef-5f28-575d-4c524d847b65@chello.at> i do not think we have seen a military / political spark .. but the Baron comes close .. how about Miles meeting Baron Klaus Wulfenbach servus markus Am 01.07.2022 um 18:57 schrieb Eric Oppen: > I can so see Miles, creating a huge explosion, and saying "BWAHAHAHA! I > meant to do that!" > > I'd love to introduce him to Agatha Heterodyne and see what happened. > > From a nice safe distance, with safe companionship. Like Bangladesh > Dupree. Maybe introduce Ivan to Bang and see what happened. > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 11:53 AM Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > >> thumbs up .. >> >> servus >> >> markus >> >> Am 01.07.2022 um 18:50 schrieb Eric Oppen: >>> If Miles is a Spark (as in *Girl Genius*) Ivan is his chief minion. >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 2:27 AM Gwynne Powell >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This chapter has some wonderful moments, of Miles tapdancing through a >>>> minefield. He's truthful but not honest with Vorreedi - and that poor >> man >>>> is >>>> doing his best, but he never had a chance against Miles, really. >>>> >>>> I like Vorreedi; he's extremely good at his job, he's smart and careful. >>>> And we >>>> see him moving through the stages that most of Miles's superiors go >>>> through, >>>> (like the five stages of grief, only this is the stages of Miles.) >>>> Introduction - >>>> questioning - suspicion - frustration - homicidal mania - grudging >>>> admiration. >>>> >>>> Then we see Miles and Ivan, and again their conversation is a delight. >> Ivan >>>> has so many strong memories of his childhood - it's really amazing that >> he >>>> survived Miles. Frankly, he had a great grounding in survival. He'd >>>> experienced >>>> more before he even joined the military than most of them go through in >>>> their entire careers. And he has is own defence mechanisms. And Miles >> needs >>>> Ivan. Miles is the wild genius - but he needs a support network. Ivan's >> had >>>> his back since they were born. >>>> >>>> Miles is extremely good at carrying on a discussion while keeping the >>>> recorders >>>> and wider audience in mind: he does it with the first interview with >>>> Benin, and >>>> with the Vorreedi discussion. (Ivan does the same later, in CVA.) And >>>> Miles has >>>> another discussion, with himself, running in his head - give him credit, >>>> he doesn't >>>> lie to himself. >>>> >>>> I love the defence that Simon WOULD have ordered him to do all of this, >> if >>>> he >>>> knew the situation. It's pretty much his default mode. >>>> >>>> Spare a thought for Simon, who gets Miles's reports after situations >> like >>>> this, >>>> and has to deal with them. >>>> >>>> And you have to wonder; how did Miles go all the way through his career >>>> without >>>> anyone throttling him? Vorob'yev, Vorreedi and Benin (and Ivan) all >> have to >>>> supress some perfectly understandable homicidal impulses towards Miles >> in >>>> this >>>> book - and they're the ones on his side. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com >>>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>>> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >>>> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> From wawenri at msn.com Fri Jul 1 20:17:10 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 19:17:10 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: <7B051074-10A1-46B7-BBCF-3CEC7E208CB5@panix.com> References: <7B051074-10A1-46B7-BBCF-3CEC7E208CB5@panix.com> Message-ID: True a limerick has a specific line scheme and meter, except for those, like the joke, that cram as many words into the last line as possible. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of WalterStuartBushell Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2022 11:19:49 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments > On Jun 30, 2022, at 12:31 PM, Margaret Dean wrote: > > In any case the implication is that there are strict poetic forms involved; > whether they're more like sonnets or like haiku we're not told. Limericks. ? In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over." --tweet by British columnist, Dan Hodges, June 15, 2015? -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C6566a07614e64373adae08da5b215547%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637922495965915468%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0op4dxBihxhW3NfwRetT21Ub6EjO9feUk%2FRVmhDHcQo%3D&reserved=0 From wawenri at msn.com Fri Jul 1 20:22:31 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 19:22:31 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When they were in Scotland, they could see a castle from their window in. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Raymond Collins Sent: Friday, July 1, 2022 12:20:01 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Update Cool! I hope they enjoyed Germany and Scotland. I miss Germany once in awhile. I hope they had a chance to sample German dishes and explore a few castles. On Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 9:08 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Hazel and Anna are back from Germany and Scotland. They are now spending > about twelve hours a day, five days a week, at my house. They each have > grown almost an inch in the last month. > My biggest problem is getting them to do something that doesn't involve a > screen. > I bought some lawn games and I'd like to take them swimming a couple of > days a week. I would really like to get Anna into swimming classes. > Yesterday we went to the library where Emma is volunteering. (She is only > in the eighth grade but insists that she will major in library science.) > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C84a0ca6595de4d327e4608da5b29c8e0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637922532268580289%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=L9ijxqJwgGTqSIJ7Hbs%2BD2elrMuONLGZns7l1GLJSio%3D&reserved=0 > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C84a0ca6595de4d327e4608da5b29c8e0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637922532268580289%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=L9ijxqJwgGTqSIJ7Hbs%2BD2elrMuONLGZns7l1GLJSio%3D&reserved=0 From proto at panix.com Fri Jul 1 22:31:02 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 17:31:02 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <7B051074-10A1-46B7-BBCF-3CEC7E208CB5@panix.com> Message-ID: <434B4B6B-3FA5-4B1C-86D3-253940355C93@panix.com> > On Jul 1, 2022, at 3:17 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > True a limerick has a specific line scheme and meter, except for those, like the joke, that cram as many words into the last line as possible. > > William A Wenrich There once was a man from Japan Whose limericks never would scan. He said yes I know, But I aways try to get as many words into the last line as ever I possibly can.n The limerick form is very flexible. ?Scorn not the limerick critic." This sig just popped up at random. I think, haven?t seen it in a long time. ? A unix salesperson, Lenore Loved her job, but loved the beach more. She devised such a way To combine work and play: She sells C-shells by the seashore. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 02:19:13 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 20:19:13 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: <181b82e2614.c2f2e536210697.6616827221888529509@zoho.com> References: <994B2EFC-0ADD-4653-AF59-25926DCB2E90@panix.com> <181b82e2614.c2f2e536210697.6616827221888529509@zoho.com> Message-ID: Cellphones are magic tablets that ward off evil and give luck. On Fri, Jul 1, 2022, 12:14 AM Beatrice Otter via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > ---- On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 21:46:07 -0700 WalterStuartBushell < > proto at panix.com> wrote --- > > > On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:00 AM, Marc Wilson > wrote: > > I can envisage a future archeologist (evolved from bears, perhaps) > > attributing their popularity to "ritual purposes" - the truth eluding > > them because, after all, they're not in the woods. > > Hence, ?Digging the Weans." > > Beatrice Otter: > Anybody interested in archaeology and anthropology, what we can learn from > the archaeological and ethnographic and historical record (and what we > can't know), and the unhelpful ways in which we try to shoehorn the data > into our pre-existing ideas of how it "must" have worked, should read The > Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity by David Graeber and David > Wengrow. It is entertaining to read, comprehensive, and exhaustively > sourced. > > > > Also, if you like to try your hand at SF/F worldbuilding and creating > fictional societies, it will give you a *lot* of interesting grist for your > mill. > > > > Beatrice Otter > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From wawenri at msn.com Sat Jul 2 05:06:06 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 04:06:06 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <994B2EFC-0ADD-4653-AF59-25926DCB2E90@panix.com> <181b82e2614.c2f2e536210697.6616827221888529509@zoho.com> Message-ID: One of the better episodes of ?The Orville? was "Lasting Impressions" about a cell phone in a time capsule. The archeologist commented that the user frequently used contractions like WTF to mean wireless transmission facilities. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Raymond Collins Sent: Friday, July 1, 2022 7:19:13 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 9 - Comments Cellphones are magic tablets that ward off evil and give luck. On Fri, Jul 1, 2022, 12:14 AM Beatrice Otter via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > ---- On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 21:46:07 -0700 WalterStuartBushell < > proto at panix.com> wrote --- > > > On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:00 AM, Marc Wilson > wrote: > > I can envisage a future archeologist (evolved from bears, perhaps) > > attributing their popularity to "ritual purposes" - the truth eluding > > them because, after all, they're not in the woods. > > Hence, ?Digging the Weans." > > Beatrice Otter: > Anybody interested in archaeology and anthropology, what we can learn from > the archaeological and ethnographic and historical record (and what we > can't know), and the unhelpful ways in which we try to shoehorn the data > into our pre-existing ideas of how it "must" have worked, should read The > Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity by David Graeber and David > Wengrow. It is entertaining to read, comprehensive, and exhaustively > sourced. > > > > Also, if you like to try your hand at SF/F worldbuilding and creating > fictional societies, it will give you a *lot* of interesting grist for your > mill. > > > > Beatrice Otter > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cee8acf47ce2942b72b4f08da5bc8ee28%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637923215785731825%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iZvZtIctwyMBhMlwQv0LpoQcZuuhkKQ2a4ZrrsvYsAc%3D&reserved=0 > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cee8acf47ce2942b72b4f08da5bc8ee28%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637923215785731825%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iZvZtIctwyMBhMlwQv0LpoQcZuuhkKQ2a4ZrrsvYsAc%3D&reserved=0 From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Jul 2 11:49:42 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 10:49:42 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyyyyyyy!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Today we send big, bright birthday greetings to John Cowan. We hope you have a wonderful day for your birthday. And for your birthday, you will be taken on a tour of the Celestial Dome by Ghem-General Benin. He'll show you all the parts of the dome that no visitors usually get to see; all the security rooms, the armoury - plus a demonstration of the weapons at the practice range, and a chance to try them yourself. After that he'll take you on a float-car tour around the gardens, admiring some of the most interesting displays, and then on to a pavilion where there's an amazing banquet set out for you to enjoy, and you're the guest of honour; there will be some ghem-generals (ask them about the good old days when they could invade people), some haut lords (a few planetary governors, and some who work in diplomacy, art and music.) There'll also be a few haut ladies, and the emperor himself will drop by for a while. The evening will end with a performance by a truly celestial choir, with beautiful pure voices, and then a fireworks display - very tasteful and with a few very artistic surprises. Have a wonderful day, John! From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Jul 2 13:09:59 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 12:09:59 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The meeting with Benin is like tapdancing through a minefield - but Miles is good at this. He goes with his favourite tactic: get the enemy off balance. Benin starts so well, asking about Miles being a courier, Ivan's posting to Ops. But this trip they're being diplomats. This is to ease them along and get them comfortable before the big whammy: "So, Lord Vorkosigan?the funeral rotunda was not the first time you saw the Ba Lura, was it?" ....and he's already about to deliver the second whammy for when Miles gives the standard startled and off-balance denial. So Miles agrees with him. That's the last thing Benin expected, so he has to regroup for a moment. Ah. So... if he wanted to keep it a secret, why did he hint Benin in the right direction, knowing he'd find this information? Miles tells him it was a test of his competence (I guarantee Benin has never had a suspect interview that went this way.) "...I wanted to know if it would be worth my while to persuade you to share your results...." (A teensy bit arrogant here?) Benin gives Miles what he calls The Look; it's an expression worn by most of the superior officers around him at some point. It makes him feel at home. "And...how did you encounter the ba?" "What do you know so far?" Yep. The Look - very understandable. The ba had been to at least one other ship before they arrived. He doesn't know who sent them to the wrong docking port - could have been official, could have been fake. The cameras in the bay were disabled. Miles asks if Benin can prove the ba left the station twice - it might be important (he's still asking more questions than Benin; interrogating Miles isn't easy.) Through this interview we get updates on Vorreedi; he starts a bit wide-eyed and tight-lipped, then gradually goes through a range of darkening plum shades till he's close to having-a-stroke purple. It's interesting that when Benin asks why Miles didn't report the ba incident, Vorreedi asks the same. I'm surprised that a professional like Vorreedi would give anything away in front of Benin (he does this later, too, on the ship.) It must show how upset and off-balance he is, or that he doesn't think there's anything about this that Benin doesn't know or can't find out. Vorreedi is calling Miles Lieutenant now, not My Lord - yes, this is a military issue now. Miles tells them that the pod captain will report to his superior, who will report to... .and on down the line. To Simon. (He also knows that it'll take days for an answer and new orders to come back. Too late.) Miles describes the meeting with the ba, leaving out the Great Key but covering all the rest. Ivan backs up the story and produces the disruptor. Despite Ivan being the one who had the weapon, and it's lying out on the table in front of them, and Vorreedi outranks him, Miles says that he'll give Benin the weapon in exchange for information. (I love his ego - he thinks HUGE. And he hypnotises people into believing it.) Unfortunately Benin doesn't know who the ba visited the first time. Miles would also like to know how they got that fake message. Miles makes well-that-was-nice-now-goodbye noises. Benin doesn't shift, but asks what Miles talked about with Rian. Miles tells him to ask Rian; as a Cetagandan she's Benin's job. Then Miles tells Benin that it's been fascinating, call again when you have more information, but have to go now... If Miles was in Vorreedi's position he'd keep the interview going and get more information, but Vorreedi obviously wants to throttle Miles in private, so he shuffles Benin out. But Miles gets time to ask; did Benin take his advice and go to the top? Yes. "How did it go?" - "Better than I would have expected." Unfortunately diplomatic immunity doesn't cover you against your own side. Miles falls back on the 'ask Simon' defence. Vorreedi isn't a happy bunny, but there's nothing he can do right now. Best line in this chapter: after Vorreedi leaves in a black cloud, Miles says, "That went well, all things considered." - another useful motto. Back in Ivan's room, Ivan ignores Miles and starts checking all his invitations. Ivan is out. He's going to play with the ladies and let Miles do his plotting all on his own. Miles needs to talk to Rian, but it's hard to figure out how. Hmmm - one of the invitations is a bit different; it has both their names. And it's not from anyone Ivan recognises. Lady d'Har. A garden party. Refering to the Celestial Garden? Well, it's the best clue they have. Ivan's reluctant; he has better invitations. Miles suggests that Ivan is leaving too many - er - samples around, and his DNA might feature in something like the kitten tree (imagine an Ivan tree!!!) Ivan is glum about the garden party, but accepts it. Then says that it's too bad that Rian can't just get the gene banks back again; then Lord X would have the key but no lock. An improvement on right now. Miles has to admit it's a brilliant idea. Why didn't he think of it? Ivan considered this. " 'Cause it's not a scenario that lets you play the lone hero in front of the haut Rian?" From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Jul 2 13:14:10 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 12:14:10 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Poor Vorreedi. There really should be a club, somewhere, for people who've had to work with Miles. They'd sit there in silence, sipping their drinks, and shuddering now and then. Benin knows that Miles is involved, but realises he's not the guilty party. He also knows that Miles is playing a game of his own, but it seems to involve the star creche - who are big players in any game. Ivan, as usual, does and says all the right things. Makes all the connections. He just doesn't want to get pulled in to something horrible; but he's always going to the there for Miles. Is MIles doing the right thing? What should he have done about all of this? From alzurite at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 14:51:24 2022 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 09:51:24 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party Message-ID: Raymond Collins said: > I'm still not sure what time the tea party will occur. No, because I haven't said yet, and I still haven't decided. Any time except evening EST is good for me. I inend to send out the invitations today or tomorrow. And as usual, if I make it too early I make it difficult for the west coast, too late and it's impossible for the people in Europe, and sorting it out for the Australians seems impossible. I'm thinking of about 3 p.m. EST. If people have strong preferences otherwise, do say. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From huntkc at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 15:22:17 2022 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 10:22:17 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Folks, be careful with this business. It's a fair amount of work to organize these events - don't try to make them happen every month. A caution from A Civil Campaign chapter 11, Kareen speaking to Ekaterin: "Never," said Kareen with passion, "ever suggest they don't have to pay you. What they pay for, they'll value. What they get for free, they'll take for granted, and then demand as a right. Hold them up for all the market will bear." I'm not saying Elizabeth should be paid, but I am saying the group needs to be aware of the effort that these take. I'd also recommend some gratitude: These meetings did more to keep the group from falling apart during the Covid Wars than any other action taken at the time. Karen Hunt On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 9:51 AM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Raymond Collins said: > > > I'm still not sure what time the tea party will occur. > > No, because I haven't said yet, and I still haven't decided. Any time > except evening EST is good for me. I inend to send out the invitations > today or tomorrow. > > And as usual, if I make it too early I make it difficult for the west > coast, too late and it's impossible for the people in Europe, and sorting > it out for the Australians seems impossible. > > I'm thinking of about 3 p.m. EST. If people have strong preferences > otherwise, do say. > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to huntkc at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From kcollett at hamilton.edu Sat Jul 2 15:36:27 2022 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Katherine Collett) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 10:36:27 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <585C083F-9218-43D1-AA54-664D22FAD5B1@hamilton.edu> On Jul 2, 2022, at 10:22 AM, Karen Hunt wrote: > > Folks, be careful with this business. It's a fair amount of work to > organize these events - don't try to make them happen every month. > > A caution from A Civil Campaign chapter 11, Kareen speaking to Ekaterin: > "Never," said Kareen with passion, "ever suggest they don't have to pay > you. What they pay for, they'll value. What they get for free, they'll take > for granted, and then demand as a right. Hold them up for all the market > will bear." > > I'm not saying Elizabeth should be paid, but I am saying the group needs to > be aware of the effort that these take. > I'd also recommend some gratitude: These meetings did more to keep the > group from falling apart during the Covid Wars than any other action taken > at the time. Well said. And thank you, Elizabeth, for taking the time and trouble to arrange these! Would it be helpful if other people hosted a Vorkosigan Tea Party occasionally, or would that make it more confusing? I have a pro Zoom account and could do so if that would be useful. Maybe having three or four people hosting alternately would make monthly parties more possible? Katherine (also in the Eastern Time Zone, so not helpful for spreading out the probable times) From domelouann at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 15:49:16 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 09:49:16 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 8:51 AM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > > And as usual, if I make it too early I make it difficult for the west > coast, too late and it's impossible for the people in Europe, and sorting > it out for the Australians seems impossible. > This is not a failing on your part in any way. It's a problem based on (a) Earth being round and (b) Bujold fans being widely scattered. I think the best solution is to continue with what we were doing, mix up the times enough that any listee anywhere should be able to attend some tea party sooner or later. Thanks for taking on this huge job. I know it isn't easy. Louann From baur at chello.at Sat Jul 2 17:30:09 2022 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 18:30:09 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Fwd: Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3bcafd32-1474-8178-ac14-46fc5339cf69@chello.at> Am 02.07.2022 um 14:14 schrieb Gwynne Powell: > > > Poor Vorreedi. There really should be a club, somewhere, for people > who've had to work with Miles. They'd sit there in silence, sipping their > drinks, and shuddering now and then. SIPPING their drinks? i think it will more something along the lines "barkeep, make it a double .. bottle" servus markus > Benin knows that Miles is involved, but realises he's not the guilty party. > He also knows that Miles is playing a game of his own, but it seems to > involve the star creche - who are big players in any game. > > Ivan, as usual, does and says all the right things. Makes all the connections. > He just doesn't want to get pulled in to something horrible; but he's always > going to the there for Miles. > > Is MIles doing the right thing? What should he have done about all of this? From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sat Jul 2 17:38:39 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 12:38:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd like to attend next Saturday, and 3 p.m. EDT sounds good. Alayne On Sat, 2 Jul 2022, Elizabeth Holden wrote: > No, because I haven't said yet, and I still haven't decided. Any time > except evening EST is good for me. I inend to send out the invitations > today or tomorrow. > > And as usual, if I make it too early I make it difficult for the west > coast, too late and it's impossible for the people in Europe, and sorting > it out for the Australians seems impossible. > > I'm thinking of about 3 p.m. EST. If people have strong preferences > otherwise, do say. -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From margdean56 at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 18:09:09 2022 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 11:09:09 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 10:38 AM alayne--- via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > I'd like to attend next Saturday, and 3 p.m. EDT sounds good. > Three p.m. EDT would be one p.m. (MDT) for me here in Santa Fe, which sounds like a good time! --Margaret Dean From howard at brazee.net Sat Jul 2 18:12:15 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 11:12:15 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46D0BCEE-0AC3-413A-81F3-FB6D76BF9309@brazee.net> The attachment automatically set my calendar to 1:00 pm Rocky Mountain Daylight time. From fishman at panix.com Sat Jul 2 18:38:46 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2022 17:38:46 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party In-Reply-To: <46D0BCEE-0AC3-413A-81F3-FB6D76BF9309@brazee.net> References: <46D0BCEE-0AC3-413A-81F3-FB6D76BF9309@brazee.net> Message-ID: What is "Rocky Mountain Daylight Time"? Wikipedia never heard of it. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ >From "Howard Brazee" To "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Date 7/2/2022 1:12:15 PM Subject Re: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party >The attachment automatically set my calendar to 1:00 pm Rocky Mountain Daylight time. >-- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From howard at brazee.net Sat Jul 2 19:17:20 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 12:17:20 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party In-Reply-To: References: <46D0BCEE-0AC3-413A-81F3-FB6D76BF9309@brazee.net> Message-ID: <268C9A93-3F52-4366-B6EF-E63C3C160BCE@brazee.net> > On Jul 2, 2022, at 11:38 AM, Harvey wrote: > > What is "Rocky Mountain Daylight Time"? Wikipedia never heard of it. Rocky Mountain Time is the time zone that covers most of the Rockies. Colorado uses Daylight Savings time as well (Arizona doesn?t). From kcollett at hamilton.edu Sat Jul 2 19:34:10 2022 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Katherine Collett) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 14:34:10 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party In-Reply-To: <268C9A93-3F52-4366-B6EF-E63C3C160BCE@brazee.net> References: <46D0BCEE-0AC3-413A-81F3-FB6D76BF9309@brazee.net> <268C9A93-3F52-4366-B6EF-E63C3C160BCE@brazee.net> Message-ID: <953048B0-F58C-4A3F-AF8E-60229D23A7B3@hamilton.edu> On Jul 2, 2022, at 2:17 PM, Howard Brazee wrote: > >> On Jul 2, 2022, at 11:38 AM, Harvey wrote: >> >> What is "Rocky Mountain Daylight Time"? Wikipedia never heard of it. > > Rocky Mountain Time is the time zone that covers most of the Rockies. Colorado uses Daylight Savings time as well (Arizona doesn?t). Wikipedia may prefer it without "Rocky". Seems to be just "Mountain Time Zone", at least here: https://www.timetemperature.com/tzus/time_zone.shtml This world time zone map might help for planning tea parties, or at least figuring out when they are where you are: https://www.timeanddate.com/time/map/. Though a site where you could enter a particular time for one place and it would display the time in different places would be good -- hm, maybe this? https://dayspedia.com/converter/ Katherine From loisaletafundis at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 20:05:56 2022 From: loisaletafundis at gmail.com (Lois Aleta Fundis) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 15:05:56 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosian Tea Party In-Reply-To: References: <15fdd0fa.36c6.181b19327ac.Webtop.99@btinternet.com> Message-ID: True. But when it does, this information may help listees who don't know how to translate time-zones. I did notice that you mentioned Eastern Standard Time, and people may want to know that people here in the US Eastern Time Zone are now on Daylight (AKA "Daylight Savings" or "Summer" Time), an hour ahead of Standard Time. Noon in Standard time is 12:00, but when we jumped to Daylight Time it jumped to 1 p.m. (And will jump back again in November.) Since not everyone uses the same time rules, this is something some folks may need to keep in mind. The apps I mentioned on my iPhone and Kindle do this brain-shifting for me. On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 2:23 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > I'm still not sure what time the tea party will occur. > > On Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 10:59 AM Lois Aleta Fundis < > loisaletafundis at gmail.com> > wrote: > > > I have an app on my Kindle, and a similar one on my iPhone, that will > tell > > you the current time in various time zones. > > > > As I began to type this, this app said it was 3:51 GMT, which is 11:51 am > > in the US Eastern Time Zone, where I live, 4:51 British Summer Time, 8:51 > > PM in California,and 1:51 AM in Sydney, Australia (among other places).. > > > > Because time keeps moving, as it does, and I had to stop and fix typos > and > > such, it's now 11:58 AM here, almost noon. > > > > On Wed, Jun 29, 2022 at 6:27 PM kate.soley.barton via Lois-Bujold < > > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I would love to come to the Tea Party. Please would you let me know the > > time difference between the party and British Summer Time? > > > Kate Barton > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to loisaletafundis at gmail.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > > > > > -- > > Lois Aleta Fundis > > loisaletafundis at gmail.com > > > > [image: image.png] > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to loisaletafundis at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois Aleta Fundis loisaletafundis at gmail.com [image: image.png] From huntkc at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 20:09:31 2022 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 15:09:31 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: AKICOTL: St Cloud, MN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good to see you again! Sorry I don't know Minnesota well enough to guess how well St Cloud would work out, but I hope things go well. Karen Hunt On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 3:05 AM Laura Gallagher wrote: > Hey all - > So I haven't been sticking my head in here much for quite a while, > sorry... life, you know? But I find myself in a situation where y'all > might have helpful answers, that I trust far more than just asking the > internet at random. > > Can anybody give me their opinions on St. Cloud as a place to live? > > Thanks much, Laura > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to huntkc at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From tlambs1138 at charter.net Sat Jul 2 20:38:16 2022 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 12:38:16 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosian Tea Party In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <055901d88e4b$472e7cf0$d58b76d0$@charter.net> With changes in my schedule, I should be able to attend this time! Noon works out great for me. Jean Lamb tlambs1138 at charter.net https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20 From dmb0317 at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 20:40:56 2022 From: dmb0317 at gmail.com (David Bowen) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 12:40:56 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: AKICOTL: St Cloud, MN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Laura, As usual, it depends on what you're looking for. St. Cloud is a college town (St. Cloud State University), so there are college sports and cultural activities available. It's also not that far to drive to the Twin Cities. When I was living in Minnesota (I moved to Arizona in 2022) the St. Cloud area had a bit of a reputation as far-right politically. Michelle Bachman represented the area before she ran for President, and Tom Emmert replaced her in Congress. Minnesota winters are cold, but if you can tolerate it, there are cross country skiing and ice fishing opportunities (I'm not sure about downhill skiing in the St. Cloud area). Summers are nice and there are plenty of opportunities for outdoor activity. Metro Transit in the Twin Cities has a connection to St. Cloud. I believe it's bus part way and then the North Star Rail line into downtown Minneapolis. If you've got more specific questions, let me know and I may be able to answer them. Dave Bowen On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 12:05 AM Laura Gallagher wrote: > Hey all - > So I haven't been sticking my head in here much for quite a while, > sorry... life, you know? But I find myself in a situation where y'all > might have helpful answers, that I trust far more than just asking the > internet at random. > > Can anybody give me their opinions on St. Cloud as a place to live? > > Thanks much, Laura > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to dmb0317 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sat Jul 2 22:09:34 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 17:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: AKICOTL: making corn tortillas Message-ID: So the spouse, who loves corn tortillas but not how much they cost, bought a bag of Maseca instant corn masa flour. I followed the instructions on the back to make a 1/2 recipe and created a reasonably pliant dough after kneading it for 2 minutes as specified. I divided it into 8 balls. We don't have a tortilla press, so my husband first tried using the bottom of a large pot, which didn't produce a result large or thin enough. Then I added a bit more wter to each ball, and got out my rolling pin and rolled each ball somewhat thinner and larger and cooked them in an oiled cast iron skillet turning every 30 seconds as specified. The result tasted OK, but was really not a corn tortilla in terms of a thinness or feel. Any ideas on what I should try next, pls? Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From huntkc at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 22:13:23 2022 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 17:13:23 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: AKICOTL: making corn tortillas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 5:09 PM alayne--- via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > So the spouse, who loves corn tortillas but not how much they cost, bought > a bag of Maseca instant corn masa flour. > > I followed the instructions on the back to make a 1/2 recipe and created a > reasonably pliant dough after kneading it for 2 minutes as specified. I > divided it into 8 balls. > > We don't have a tortilla press, so my husband first tried using the bottom > of a large pot, which didn't produce a result large or thin enough. > > Then I added a bit more wter to each ball, and got out my rolling pin and > rolled each ball somewhat thinner and larger and cooked them in an oiled > cast iron skillet turning every 30 seconds as specified. > > The result tasted OK, but was really not a corn tortilla in terms of a > thinness or feel. > > Any ideas on what I should try next, pls? > After making the balls, press them down into disks, then put plastic wrap around them and let them rest for ~30 min. It helps, though I admit I still gave up and only do flour tortillas these days. From phoenix at mindstalk.net Sun Jul 3 04:14:28 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 23:14:28 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: <3D938659-A2AF-4074-B89B-A2152B455396@panix.com> References: <5D86A25F-E681-4790-851E-802058EB1922@brazee.net> <3D938659-A2AF-4074-B89B-A2152B455396@panix.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 01, 2022 at 12:43:55AM -0400, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > Team sports involving balls originated in the new world as religious rituals among > people with acess to rubber. > > Obviously those ball are religious in nature. Ball games have multiple origins. Mesoamericans had latex balls, but the Old World could play with inflated bladders or skin balls. https://sites.psu.edu/ballgamesoftheworld/ancient-ball-games/ mentions old Chinese Cuji and Japanese kemari; I doubt the 2300 BC, but Wikipedia says Qin dynasty for Cuju and 644 AD for kemari.. There's also beach volleyball (well, beach something) in the Odyssey. -xx- Damien X-) From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Jul 3 06:53:54 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 05:53:54 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Three p.m. EDT would be 5 am Sunday morning for me - it's doable. I'm a night owl anyway. Looking forward to it. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Jul 3 06:57:21 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 05:57:21 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosian Tea Party In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Lois Aleta Fundis I did notice that you mentioned Eastern Standard Time, and people may want to know that people here in the US Eastern Time Zone are now on Daylight (AKA "Daylight Savings" or "Summer" Time), an hour ahead of Standard Time. Noon in Standard time is 12:00, but when we jumped to Daylight Time it jumped to 1 p.m. (And will jump back again in November.) Since not everyone uses the same time rules, this is something some folks may need to keep in mind. The apps I mentioned on my iPhone and Kindle do this brain-shifting for me. Gwynne: What???? Daylight savings time - I have to calculate for that? I don't know if the converter I used allowed for that. Am I adding or subtracting an hour? From alzurite at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 13:46:49 2022 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 08:46:49 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party July 9 Message-ID: Sorry, Gwynne, I didn't mean to alarm you. I meant EDT, which currently is GMT -4. Time zones are shifty and confusing things. Tell me the name of your time zone and I can figure it out for you. (Probably.) Basically, New York Time, if that makes it easier to look up. A slight delay in setting the time: my housemate, who owns the Zoom account, has a Zoom funeral that day, so I have to find out what time the funeral will be and work around it. She says she will have all the details today. So ... stand by, namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From alzurite at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 13:51:32 2022 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 08:51:32 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party July 9, and Time Zones Message-ID: Katherine Collett said: > This world time zone map might help for planning tea parties, or at least figuring out when > they are where you are: https://www.timeanddate.com/time/map/. Thank you! This looks useful. I am amused that they actually put a little red dot for Chibougamau to help us work out what time it is there. The population of Chibougamau is about 7,000. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 17:40:01 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 12:40:01 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 3:03 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > Vorreedi muses: no rules at all? Well, one rule - deliver results or > else. And he's been > doing this job (whatever it is) for three years. So; authority and > autonomy? No, no > authority, just responsibility. Vorreedi is sympathetic about that. > > One day Vorreedi will find out exactly what this frustrating little > courier is really doing. > He'd never in his wildest dreams imagine the Dendarii fleet. > > Has someone written this fic (series of ficlets)? All Miles' former bosses' reactions when news leaks that actually, the "obnoxious little git" was running an entire fleet. Yeah, that explains a looooot about him, doesn't it? Ivan: "I am not shooting your commanding officer for you." If no one has written that fic, does anyone want to write it now? Please? > Vorreedi has one more comment: how does Ivan fit into all this? His career > is > totally transparent, there's no way he's any kind of agent. > "A lot of people are baffled by Ivan, sir. But . . . sometimes, even a > genius needs someone who can follow orders." > ...Miles depends on Ivan more than he'll admit. And Ivan is, in his own > way, as > deceptive as Miles. He's actually slightly better than Miles at being > covert. > > > And one day, when Simon is in the hospital, Miles needs someone who can carry out potentially explosive orders. Obviously, there's only one candidate. > > "....But you have to stay absolutely cool. I may be completely off-base, > and panicking prematurely." > "I don't think so. I think you're panicking post-maturely. In fact, if you > were panicking any later it would be practically posthumously. I've been > panicking for days." > ...Don't you love Ivan? He actually has a pretty good grasp of the > situation. > > > I love Ivan. So do many, many perfume laden ladies sending him letters. Sylvia From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 17:48:08 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 12:48:08 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Supporting genious- book recs. was Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 3:27 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Then we see Miles and Ivan, and again their conversation is a delight. Ivan > has so many strong memories of his childhood - it's really amazing that he > survived Miles. Frankly, he had a great grounding in survival. He'd > experienced > more before he even joined the military than most of them go through in > their entire careers. And he has is own defence mechanisms. And Miles needs > Ivan. Miles is the wild genius - but he needs a support network. Ivan's had > his back since they were born. > > A genius who didn't have support: Cavilo. And look where it got her. What book (or fic) do you recommend that has a wild genius and a supporting good friend? Holmes springs to mind, and his exasperation with his friend Watson. Tinker (by Wen Spencer) is a genius who fiercely loves supporting cousin Oilcan, who is very very smart but more of a renaissance man than a hyper focused genius. From litalex at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 17:52:02 2022 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 12:52:02 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party In-Reply-To: <585C083F-9218-43D1-AA54-664D22FAD5B1@hamilton.edu> References: <585C083F-9218-43D1-AA54-664D22FAD5B1@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: <3C16ECE5-AF39-432D-A73B-40F80A1420B6@gmail.com> Hello, > On Jul 2, 2022, at 10:36, Katherine Collett wrote: > > Well said. And thank you, Elizabeth, for taking the time and trouble to arrange these! I agree. Thank you, Elizabeth! It must be pretty complicated arranging for a time good for everyone. little Alex From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 18:37:09 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 13:37:09 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 8:14 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Poor Vorreedi. There really should be a club, somewhere, for people > who've had to work with Miles. They'd sit there in silence, sipping their > drinks, and shuddering now and then. > *fic fic fic fic fic* > > Benin knows that Miles is involved, but realises he's not the guilty party. > He also knows that Miles is playing a game of his own, but it seems to > involve the star creche - who are big players in any game. > Wait wait wait. Miles was told that the Star Creche is just women, not important at all. Mia Maz had a slightly differing opinion, and then Rian gave him the clue bat: Star Creche controls the next generation. Benin is ghem, he knows the Star Creche is important. Does Voreedi know that "just women" is not a charming understatement? Sylvia From howard at brazee.net Sun Jul 3 19:46:49 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 12:46:49 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda Haut goals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I keep wondering if the plans are limited to only biological/genetic improvements. Whether they believe cyborg improvements (including memory brain implants) are heretical. And what they think of Quaddies. From phoenix at mindstalk.net Sun Jul 3 22:34:18 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 17:34:18 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda belated comments Message-ID: I belatedly noticed the discussion, and ended up re-reading the whole book yesterday. Apologies if I cover old ground. Age of the empire: "If I knew how the haut-women do it," Maz sighed, "I'd bottle it and sell it. No, better?I think I'd keep it for myself. But it seems to have worked for the last several hundred years. It is not, of course, the only method of Imperial control, to be sure. Only the most overlooked one. I find that, in itself, significant. The haut are nothing if not subtle." Age of the Great Key: "I'm not quite sure. At one time in the past, I believe it had something to do with data retrieval from the haut gene banks, but the actual device may only be ceremonial by now. I mean, it's a couple of hundred years old. It has to be obsolete." Suggest the Key is rather newer than the empire/haut. Is there a satrap governor for Eta Ceta itself? If so, what did he think he was going to do with his gene bank, under the nose of the Emperor? "Eight. One [gene bank] for each of the planetary satraps." "The first satrap governor had arrived in person only ten days before Miles and Ivan had" There's a consort for Eta Ceta, and apparently matching satraps and governors: "Ah." Miles settled back, smiling fixedly. Now he saw how the Empress Lisbet had set up her scheme, the living channels she had used to communicate with each satrap governor. If every one of those consorts wasn't in on this plot to her eyebrows, he'd eat his boots. Sixteen. I have sixteen suspects, not eight. "Stop me?" repeated the haut-woman in puzzlement. "I am the haut Pel Navarr, Consort of Eta Ceta. I live here." Seems like the Empire has *nine* core worlds, 8 satrapies in addition to Eta Ceta, and 8 or 9 consorts (if there's one on Eta Ceta to offload work from the Empress). There's also 'Miles supposed eight developed planets and an equal fringe of allied and puppet dependencies qualified as a sprawl in any sane person's lexicon.' So core worlds, and dependencies. Here, it's the core worlds that are called satrapies. But I think Barrayar has been referred to as "the ninth satrapy" From margdean56 at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 23:19:17 2022 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 16:19:17 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Fwd: Random Vorkosigan fanfic idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Received this from my elder son this morning, and am passing it along as requested for the amusement of the list! --Margaret Dean ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Norman Dean Date: Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 7:27 AM Subject: Random Vorkosigan fanfic idea A couple of generations down the line, Miles' grandson Miles Vorkosigan is gadding about the galaxy when he runs into a Cetagandan who seems to recognize his name. If he's familiar with his family history, he's probably alarmed by this, but it turns out that while *grand-p?re *Miles is mostly forgotten on Barrayar these days (what with covert ops history being covert and all, and Auditorial history mostly of interest to legal specialists, young Miles' Aunt Helen is the most famous Vorkosigan in recent memory for other reasons entirely), he's sort of a meme/legendary figure in Cetaganda, where his Order of Merit and call-up by the Star Creche are matters of public record (though probably not the reasons for them!) Anyway, it turns out that *grand-p?re* Miles is a minor character in some sort of vid-drama series about a Cetagandan boy who turns out to be the surprise heir to a fictional Barrayaran Countship (as the descendent of a Vor collaborator who fled at the end of the Occupation) in a classic fish-out-of-water tale written during a period of Barrayaran-Cetagandan rapprochement, and the season finale is "inspired by" the historical Vorbretten case... (Mom, dunno if the Bujold list is still a going concern, but feel free to pass along to them if you think it would amuse them.) Norman From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Jul 4 01:19:37 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 00:19:37 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party July 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Elizabeth Holden Sorry, Gwynne, I didn't mean to alarm you. I meant EDT, which currently is GMT -4. Time zones are shifty and confusing things. Tell me the name of your time zone and I can figure it out for you. (Probably.) Gwynne: I'm on Sydney time. Unless this latest flood washes us all out to sea, then I'll probably be in New Zealand. According to my converter, in Sydney time the zoom is at 5 am on Sunday - I don't know if it allows for daylight savings time, or if it needs to. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Jul 4 01:23:09 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 00:23:09 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Sylvia McIvers I love Ivan. So do many, many perfume laden ladies sending him letters. Sylvia Gwynne: He does seem to have made an impression, and gained a lot of eager fans. It almost makes you wonder if Cetagandans aren't quite as good at everything as they claim to be; the ladies definitely like Ivan's technique. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 01:26:01 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 19:26:01 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda belated comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is shear speculation on my part. The Cetagandans comprise three castes. The Haute, Ghem and the neutered servitude class the Ba. Originally I think the first settlers either consisted of either one or two groups the genetic biologists who had a vision of a superior human species and the second group who were the support staff. As the biologists utilized genetic manipulation and early uterine replicators they created a generation of the first Haute. Eventually the haute became the leading caste and the early Ceta support class became the Ghem. Somewhere during either, early in the colony's history or later as the Haute became the leading class the first Ba caste were genetically modified to be the serving caste. So we have three or four ages of Cetagandan civilization. The first age consisted of the settlement of the first colony. While the biologists tinkered with DNA the support staff was employed to build the labs, housing, powerplants, security etc. The transition from the first age to the second was probably gradual as the first generation of the Haute grew up and became involved in the genetic engineering and social engineering of the society. This when the culture transited to the early form of the Cetagandan civilization with Haute Emperor and empress who controlled all the genetic codes. Sometime around this time period the great key was created. The third age began with conquest of the first worlds and the creation of the Satraps. This age of conquest has been blunted by Barrayar and other worlds powerful enough to defend themselves from the Cetagandans. At this point it could be theoretically argued tha Cetaganda is transitioning into the fourth period of equilibrium. This might have dismayed the deceased Empress who instigated the transfer of copys of the gene banks to the eight satrapys. On Sun, Jul 3, 2022, 4:34 PM Damien Sullivan wrote: > I belatedly noticed the discussion, and ended up re-reading the whole > book yesterday. Apologies if I cover old ground. > > Age of the empire: > > "If I knew how the haut-women do it," Maz sighed, "I'd bottle it and > sell it. No, better?I think I'd keep it for myself. But it seems to have > worked for the last several hundred years. It is not, of course, the > only method of Imperial control, to be sure. Only the most overlooked > one. I find that, in itself, significant. The haut are nothing if not > subtle." > > Age of the Great Key: > > "I'm not quite sure. At one time in the past, I believe it had something > to do with data retrieval from the haut gene banks, but the actual > device may only be ceremonial by now. I mean, it's a couple of hundred > years old. It has to be obsolete." > > Suggest the Key is rather newer than the empire/haut. > > > Is there a satrap governor for Eta Ceta itself? If so, what did he > think he was going to do with his gene bank, under the nose of the > Emperor? > > "Eight. One [gene bank] for each of the planetary satraps." > > "The first satrap governor had arrived in person only ten days before > Miles and Ivan had" > > There's a consort for Eta Ceta, and apparently matching satraps and > governors: > > "Ah." Miles settled back, smiling fixedly. Now he saw how the Empress > Lisbet had set up her scheme, the living channels she had used to > communicate with each satrap governor. If every one of those consorts > wasn't in on this plot to her eyebrows, he'd eat his boots. Sixteen. I > have sixteen suspects, not eight. > > "Stop me?" repeated the haut-woman in puzzlement. "I am the haut Pel > Navarr, Consort of Eta Ceta. I live here." > > > Seems like the Empire has *nine* core worlds, 8 satrapies in addition to > Eta Ceta, and 8 or 9 consorts (if there's one on Eta Ceta to offload > work from the Empress). > > > There's also > > 'Miles supposed eight developed planets and an equal fringe of allied > and puppet dependencies qualified as a sprawl in any sane person's > lexicon.' > > So core worlds, and dependencies. Here, it's the core worlds that are > called satrapies. But I think Barrayar has been referred to as "the > ninth satrapy" > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Jul 4 01:26:46 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 00:26:46 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Sylvia McIvers Wait wait wait. Miles was told that the Star Creche is just women, not important at all. Mia Maz had a slightly differing opinion, and then Rian gave him the clue bat: Star Creche controls the next generation. Benin is ghem, he knows the Star Creche is important. Does Voreedi know that "just women" is not a charming understatement? Sylvia Gwynne: Vorreedi dresses as a ghem lord, and associates mostly with the ghem. I don't know how aware most of them are about the power of the Star Creche. And I don't know if Vorreedi would even ask much about haut women, since they're so unimportant - he's probably more focussed on the military, and some politics. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Jul 4 01:34:21 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 00:34:21 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda Haut goals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Howard Brazee I keep wondering if the plans are limited to only biological/genetic improvements. Whether they believe cyborg improvements (including memory brain implants) are heretical. And what they think of Quaddies. Gwynne: I think they'd see cyborgs as cheating. And not elegant enough. As for quaddies; just too grossly functional, and again lacking in elegance. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Jul 4 01:42:39 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 00:42:39 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Fwd: Random Vorkosigan fanfic idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Margaret Dean Received this from my elder son this morning, and am passing it along as requested for the amusement of the list! .... Anyway, it turns out that *grand-p?re* Miles is a minor character in some sort of vid-drama series about a Cetagandan boy who turns out to be the surprise heir to a fictional Barrayaran Countship (as the descendent of a Vor collaborator who fled at the end of the Occupation) in a classic fish-out-of-water tale written during a period of Barrayaran-Cetagandan rapprochement, and the season finale is "inspired by" the historical Vorbretten case... Norman Gwynne: I've been wondering about tourism. If you look at Japanese and German tourism these days (well, pre-COVID), they don't seem to have any problems travelling to places that were involved in WWII. I'm wondering if there'll start to be some Ceta tourism, visiting places that grand-dad talked about. Or if Barrayarans might start to visit Cetaganda, to see what it's really like. How long before hostility turns to curiousity? And judging by Rene Vorbretten's family embarrassment, there could be quite a few part-Ceta Barrayarans around; maybe some of them will be curious to visit a place that's part of their personal heritage. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 01:42:39 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 19:42:39 -0500 Subject: [LMB] The Bioestheties Show In-Reply-To: References: <620580840.456207.1656584038061@webmail.mymagenta.at> Message-ID: A sad, sad catastrotree. On Fri, Jul 1, 2022, 11:56 AM Eric Oppen wrote: > I wonder---do they ripen or just stay where they are? One of the many > weird peoples in the Oz books were plant people who grew on vines, and when > ripe, would be plucked and suddenly become fully functional people. I > think it was in *Dorothy and the Wizard in Oz, *but it's been decades since > I read those books and I could be mistaken. > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 12:11 AM WalterStuartBushell > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Jun 30, 2022, at 11:55 AM, Eric Oppen > > wrote: > > > > > > My late best friend was a major cat-lover, and after the first reading, > > > always skipped this chapter because of the kitten tree. > > > > Ah, I like Miles? comment to the effect of it didn?t seem bad compared to > > the way cats are normally born.This is new point for Uterine Replicators. > > > > I wonder will kittens in the future be developed in Uterine Replicators? > > > > Blessed are the cheesemakers, for they lead the whey.?Allan Richardson > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Mon Jul 4 02:02:46 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 21:02:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Fwd: Random Vorkosigan fanfic idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Margaret, tell Norman - Nicely done! One does hope this will inspire some fanfic. I figure that grand-p?re Miles should at least be remembered for the events in Diplomatic Immunity, surely? Alayne On Sun, 3 Jul 2022, Margaret Dean wrote: > Received this from my elder son this morning, and am passing it along as > requested for the amusement of the list! > > > --Margaret Dean > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Norman Dean > Date: Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 7:27 AM > Subject: Random Vorkosigan fanfic idea > > > > A couple of generations down the line, Miles' grandson Miles Vorkosigan is > gadding about the galaxy when he runs into a Cetagandan who seems to > recognize his name. If he's familiar with his family history, he's probably > alarmed by this, but it turns out that while *grand-p?re *Miles is mostly > forgotten on Barrayar these days (what with covert ops history being covert > and all, and Auditorial history mostly of interest to legal specialists, > young Miles' Aunt Helen is the most famous Vorkosigan in recent memory for > other reasons entirely), he's sort of a meme/legendary figure in Cetaganda, > where his Order of Merit and call-up by the Star Creche are matters of > public record (though probably not the reasons for them!) > > Anyway, it turns out that *grand-p?re* Miles is a minor character in some > sort of vid-drama series about a Cetagandan boy who turns out to be the > surprise heir to a fictional Barrayaran Countship (as the descendent of a > Vor collaborator who fled at the end of the Occupation) in a classic > fish-out-of-water tale written during a period of > Barrayaran-Cetagandan rapprochement, and the season finale is "inspired by" > the historical Vorbretten case... > > (Mom, dunno if the Bujold list is still a going concern, but feel free to > pass along to them if you think it would amuse them.) > > Norman -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Jul 4 02:12:58 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 01:12:58 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda belated comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Raymond Collins This is shear speculation on my part. The Cetagandans comprise three castes. The Haute, Ghem and the neutered servitude class the Ba. Originally I think the first settlers either consisted of either one or two groups the genetic biologists who had a vision of a superior human species and the second group who were the support staff. As the biologists utilized genetic manipulation and early uterine replicators they created a generation of the first Haute. Eventually the haute became the leading caste and the early Ceta support class became the Ghem. Somewhere during either, early in the colony's history or later as the Haute became the leading class the first Ba caste were genetically modified to be the serving caste. Gwynne: I mostly agree with this. But I think the ba are seen, by the haut, as a part of the haut class - after all, ba are part-sibs of the haut. And they have more haut genes than the ghem. There's also a servitor class that's not haut or ghem; when Vorreedi catches the assassin who was sent after Yenaro, he comments that the man's not a ghem. And there's a few mentions of servitor class; Benello says they should have used a servitor as a model for the fabric display. Also, the constant use of ghem-, as in Ghem-general, ghem-lord, etc. You don't identify that way unless you're differentiating from someone else. And the haut don't play with the lower classes, they're not in the military, etc. So there must be some 'servitor class' (that term was used) people who aren't ghem, and the ghem rub it in that they're superior (after all, the ghem imitate the haut in many ways.) The servitor class are probably from conquered worlds, and maybe also some servants who are cooked up - cloned or created - for specific jobs. Maybe very heroic servitors get promoted to the ghem? That would fit with the way haut control the ghem, with rewards. So the servitor classes have a special reward dangled in front of them too. And it would give the haut more genetic material to observe and tinker with. From tlambs1138 at charter.net Mon Jul 4 02:20:58 2022 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 18:20:58 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Fwd: Random Vorkosigan fanfic idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <076401d88f44$518a0ee0$f49e2ca0$@charter.net> Once upon a time, there was a movie called "If this is Tuesday, This Must Be Belgium". During it, there was a part where a husband, clearly a WWII vet, is boring his wife with the infinteenth recitation of 'there I was at 30,000 feet". In the background, there's a German vet playing ack-ack to his equally bored wife... I suggest there could a Barrayaran/Cetagandan version of this scene in any fic about a Noted Barrayaran War Site. Jean Lamb tlambs1138 at charter.net https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20 From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 02:22:50 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 20:22:50 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Fwd: Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: <3bcafd32-1474-8178-ac14-46fc5339cf69@chello.at> References: <3bcafd32-1474-8178-ac14-46fc5339cf69@chello.at> Message-ID: I'd call the club, Miles and miles of Miles club. On Sat, Jul 2, 2022, 11:30 AM Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > Am 02.07.2022 um 14:14 schrieb Gwynne Powell: > > > > > > Poor Vorreedi. There really should be a club, somewhere, for people > > who've had to work with Miles. They'd sit there in silence, sipping their > > drinks, and shuddering now and then. > > SIPPING their drinks? i think it will more something along the lines > > "barkeep, make it a double .. bottle" > > servus > > markus > > > Benin knows that Miles is involved, but realises he's not the guilty > party. > > He also knows that Miles is playing a game of his own, but it seems to > > involve the star creche - who are big players in any game. > > > > Ivan, as usual, does and says all the right things. Makes all the > connections. > > He just doesn't want to get pulled in to something horrible; but he's > always > > going to the there for Miles. > > > > Is MIles doing the right thing? What should he have done about all of > this? > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 02:40:58 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 20:40:58 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: <434B4B6B-3FA5-4B1C-86D3-253940355C93@panix.com> References: <7B051074-10A1-46B7-BBCF-3CEC7E208CB5@panix.com> <434B4B6B-3FA5-4B1C-86D3-253940355C93@panix.com> Message-ID: Speaking of limericks A man moved faster then light He left that day in a relative way And returned last Saturday night. On Fri, Jul 1, 2022, 4:31 PM WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > > > On Jul 1, 2022, at 3:17 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > > > True a limerick has a specific line scheme and meter, except for those, > like the joke, that cram as many words into the last line as possible. > > > > William A Wenrich > > There once was a man from Japan > Whose limericks never would scan. > He said yes I know, > But I aways try to get as many words into the last line as ever I possibly > can.n > > The limerick form is very flexible. > > ?Scorn not the limerick critic." > > This sig just popped up at random. I think, haven?t seen it in a long time. > ? > A unix salesperson, Lenore > Loved her job, but loved the beach more. > She devised such a way > To combine work and play: > She sells C-shells by the seashore. > > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 03:00:31 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 21:00:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party July 9, and Time Zones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's a neat app. I just put a shortcut to it on my tablet. On Sun, Jul 3, 2022, 7:51 AM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Katherine Collett said: > > > This world time zone map might help for planning tea parties, or at least > figuring out when > > they are where you are: https://www.timeanddate.com/time/map/. > > Thank you! This looks useful. > > I am amused that they actually put a little red dot for Chibougamau to help > us work out what time it is there. The population of Chibougamau is about > 7,000. > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From fishman at panix.com Mon Jul 4 03:26:03 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2022 02:26:03 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <7B051074-10A1-46B7-BBCF-3CEC7E208CB5@panix.com> <434B4B6B-3FA5-4B1C-86D3-253940355C93@panix.com> Message-ID: Neither of those is a limerick which requires a rhyming scheme of AABBA. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ >From "Raymond Collins" To "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Date 7/3/2022 9:40:58 PM Subject Re: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments >Speaking of limericks > > A man moved faster then light > He left that day in a relative way > And returned last Saturday night. > >On Fri, Jul 1, 2022, 4:31 PM WalterStuartBushell wrote: > >> >> >> > On Jul 1, 2022, at 3:17 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >> > >> > True a limerick has a specific line scheme and meter, except for those, >>like the joke, that cram as many words into the last line as possible. >> > >> > William A Wenrich >> >>There once was a man from Japan >>Whose limericks never would scan. >>He said yes I know, >>But I aways try to get as many words into the last line as ever I possibly >>can.n >> >>The limerick form is very flexible. >> >>?Scorn not the limerick critic." >> >>This sig just popped up at random. I think, haven?t seen it in a long time. >>? >>A unix salesperson, Lenore >>Loved her job, but loved the beach more. >>She devised such a way >>To combine work and play: >>She sells C-shells by the seashore. >> >> >> >> >> >>-- >>Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >>Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> >-- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From howard at brazee.net Mon Jul 4 03:28:59 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 20:28:59 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <7B051074-10A1-46B7-BBCF-3CEC7E208CB5@panix.com> <434B4B6B-3FA5-4B1C-86D3-253940355C93@panix.com> Message-ID: <140E0A0D-07B4-4D14-A287-2B592FFAA1DF@brazee.net> Check here for an article about that Limerick: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/12/19/lady-bright/#:~:text=%E2%80%A6a%20man%20with%20a%20properly,returned%20on%20the%20previous%20night.&text=And%20returned%20home%20the%20previous%20night.%E2%80%9D > On Jul 3, 2022, at 8:26 PM, Harvey wrote: > > Neither of those is a limerick which requires a rhyming scheme of AABBA. > > Harvey > > ------ Original Message ------ > From "Raymond Collins" > To "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." > Date 7/3/2022 9:40:58 PM > Subject Re: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments > >> Speaking of limericks >> >> A man moved faster then light >> He left that day in a relative way >> And returned last Saturday night. From phoenix at mindstalk.net Mon Jul 4 03:29:36 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 22:29:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Improving the Haut In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 29, 2022 at 03:35:43PM +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Will the haut add some telepathy genes to their mix? That seemed the intention of the Dowager Empress. "I had understood that the recovery of the L-X-10-Terran-C was one of our late Lady's highest priorities. After the field tests she was considering it as an addition to the haut-genome itself." But there are two obstacles. First, that I think they don't *have* the telepathy genes, Terrence ruined it all and they would have to find a new source. Second, I suspect Lois doesn't really want to engage with telepathy in her SF universe again. > I'll bet that, at least at first, it's for the women only. Or only for > a ruling clan. But just imagine the haut - with added telepathy! I expect they'd add genes for synthesizing a whole lot more tyramine... Relatedly, I suspect haut can synthesize all "essential" amino acids if needed, and vitamin C, and such. Little things that don't actually matter for a high-tech population but are (maybe) easy to add. (Like the haut being strong, even though they do no physical labor...) -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at mindstalk.net Mon Jul 4 03:44:06 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 22:44:06 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda belated comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 03, 2022 at 07:26:01PM -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: > This is shear speculation on my part. The Cetagandans comprise three > castes. The Haute, Ghem and the neutered servitude class the Ba. Originally haut, not haute, and rather more than that. As Gwynne said, the ba are specifically servitors (and guinea pigs) for the haut. There are others: ""Ivan was wondering if the haut-lords cloned their servants." Ivan cast Miles a slightly dirty look, for being made the stalking horse, but did not voice an objection. "The ghem-lords sometimes do," said Maz, "but not the haut-lords" "Kety's train was large, as befit his governor's dignity: a couple of dozen ghem-guards, plus ghem-ladies, non-ba servitors in his personal livery, and rather to Miles's dismay, ghem-General Chilian." "In principle," Giaja conceded. "But this generation is not the time. The haut population can expand many times over into space presently held by servitor classes, without need for further territorial aggrandizement. The Empire is enjoying a necessary period of assimilation." Note 'classes', plural. Kety has liveried guards addressed as 'servitor'; I'm not sure if even all soldiers (a la enlisted) are ghem, and private guards probably aren't. My own guess is that you've got haut (and ba), ghem, ordinary citizens/subjects/commoners, and designed/cloned servants for the ghem and maybe wealthy or favored citizens. Being a Cherryh fan, I think of those servitors as 'azi'. I also guess that the azi are technically not legal slaves/chattel, so as to nominally abide by civilization... but good luck getting a job if you're an azi who tries to walk away from your 'employed'. Worse if you're part of a clone-batch, and walking away would throw your entire kin group onto the street in retaliation. I also guess that the haut project before uterine replicators involved a whole lot of pregnancies among the haut (and maybe ghem) women, thus the extreme sexual division among them, and strong prejudice against body-births, even 200 years later. -xx- Damien X-) From rgmolpus at flash.net Mon Jul 4 09:05:20 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 08:05:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda belated comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1313168787.1284645.1656921920725@mail.yahoo.com> I think this is incorrect. There are four classes in Cetagandan society, Haut, Ghem, Commoners, and Ba; the Ba are the smallest group numerically. The Haut are the next smallest group, the Ghem next, with the Commoners the largest. SOMEONE has to operate the economy, and it's not the Haut or Ghem! The Ba are a special case, being individually created by the Haut to test possible gene combinations before it's spread to the Ghem, and eventually into the Haut. There's a mention of the forth social class when the Haut ladies are conferring with Giaja in front of Miles: "In principle," Giaja conceded. "But this generation is not the time. The haut population can expand many times over into space presently held by servitor classes, without need for further territorial aggrandizement. The Empire is enjoying a necessary period of assimilation." Note he says 'Servitor classes'; meaning the Commoners are subdivided into chunks (based on profession white collar/Blue collar work?). The Ghem could take over some of the Servitor's work; giving them extra arena to compete with themselves and others. On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 08:13:15 PM CDT, Gwynne Powell wrote: From: Raymond Collins This is shear speculation on my part. The Cetagandans comprise three castes. The Haute, Ghem and the neutered servitude class the Ba. Originally I think the first settlers either consisted of either one or two groups the genetic biologists who had a vision of a superior human species and the second group who were the support staff. As the biologists utilized genetic manipulation and early uterine replicators they created a generation of the first Haute. Eventually the haute became the leading caste and the early Ceta support class became the Ghem. Somewhere during either,? early in the colony's history or later as the Haute became the leading class the first Ba caste were genetically modified to be the serving caste. Gwynne: I mostly agree with this. But I think the ba are seen, by the haut, as a part of the haut class - after all, ba are part-sibs of the haut. And they have more haut genes than the ghem. There's also a servitor class that's not haut or ghem; when Vorreedi catches the assassin who was sent after Yenaro, he comments that the man's not a ghem. And there's a few mentions of servitor class; Benello says they should have used a servitor as a model for the fabric display. Also, the constant use of ghem-, as in Ghem-general, ghem-lord, etc. You don't identify that way unless you're differentiating from someone else. And the haut don't play with the lower classes, they're not in the military, etc. So there must be some 'servitor class' (that term was used) people who aren't ghem, and the ghem rub it in that they're superior (after all, the ghem imitate the haut in many ways.) The servitor class are probably from conquered worlds, and maybe also some servants who are cooked up - cloned or created - for specific jobs. Maybe very heroic servitors get promoted to the ghem? That would fit with the way haut control the ghem, with rewards. So the servitor classes have a special reward dangled in front of them too. And it would give the haut more genetic material to observe and tinker with. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From rgmolpus at flash.net Mon Jul 4 09:10:06 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 08:10:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Improving the Haut In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <939178582.787767.1656922206371@mail.yahoo.com> The better way to include the telepathy gene would be to reduce the natural capacity to produce or absorb tyramine; and strictly control it's availability; so the T Gene can express only when it's required. If Telepathy is needed, you get a shot of the good stuff; and then it's gone until the next shot. On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 09:29:44 PM CDT, Damien Sullivan wrote: On Wed, Jun 29, 2022 at 03:35:43PM +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Will the haut add some telepathy genes to their mix? That seemed the intention of the Dowager Empress. "I had understood that the recovery of the L-X-10-Terran-C was one of our late Lady's highest priorities. After the field tests she was considering it as an addition to the haut-genome itself." But there are two obstacles.? First, that I think they don't *have* the telepathy genes, Terrence ruined it all and they would have to find a new source.? Second, I suspect Lois doesn't really want to engage with telepathy in her SF universe again. > I'll bet that, at least at first, it's for the women only. Or only for > a ruling clan. But just imagine the haut - with added telepathy! I expect they'd add genes for synthesizing a whole lot more tyramine... Relatedly, I suspect haut can synthesize all "essential" amino acids if needed, and vitamin C, and such.? Little things that don't actually matter for a high-tech population but are (maybe) easy to add. (Like the haut being strong, even though they do no physical labor...) -xx- Damien X-) -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 09:25:01 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 03:25:01 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party In-Reply-To: <3C16ECE5-AF39-432D-A73B-40F80A1420B6@gmail.com> References: <585C083F-9218-43D1-AA54-664D22FAD5B1@hamilton.edu> <3C16ECE5-AF39-432D-A73B-40F80A1420B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: Indeed, well said. We are a scattered bunch, but that's because Lois' writing is popular throughout the world. And I salute Elizabeth for putting up with the hassle of being in charge of the Zoom tea parties. On Sun, Jul 3, 2022, 11:52 AM Alex Kwan wrote: > Hello, > > > On Jul 2, 2022, at 10:36, Katherine Collett > wrote: > > > > Well said. And thank you, Elizabeth, for taking the time and trouble to > arrange these! > > I agree. Thank you, Elizabeth! It must be pretty complicated arranging for > a time good for everyone. > > little Alex > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 09:41:32 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 03:41:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It strikes me that the Star Creche is probably the most important cultural artifact of the Cetagandan civilization. If something were to happen to the Star Creche the Cetagandans might be ripped apart. The replication of the Star Creche might also inspire a civil war between the Satraps as each claims that their gene banks are the "real" gene banks closest to the true purpose of the progenitors. This leads me to the conclusion that the Dowager Empress was either off her rocker, totally nuts, or just plain stupid for not realizing that her plan could lead to civil war. Whatever the reason Miles knew this was a bad idea from the start. On Sun, Jul 3, 2022, 12:37 PM Sylvia McIvers wrote: > On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 8:14 AM Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > > > > > > Poor Vorreedi. There really should be a club, somewhere, for people > > who've had to work with Miles. They'd sit there in silence, sipping their > > drinks, and shuddering now and then. > > > > *fic fic fic fic fic* > > > > > > Benin knows that Miles is involved, but realises he's not the guilty > party. > > He also knows that Miles is playing a game of his own, but it seems to > > involve the star creche - who are big players in any game. > > > > > Wait wait wait. > Miles was told that the Star Creche is just women, not important at all. > Mia Maz had a slightly differing opinion, and then Rian gave him the clue > bat: Star Creche controls the next generation. > > Benin is ghem, he knows the Star Creche is important. > Does Voreedi know that "just women" is not a charming understatement? > > Sylvia > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 10:02:46 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 04:02:46 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Supporting genious- book recs. was Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: C. S. Foresters's Horatio Hornblower and his loyal subordinate and friend William Bush, Also Jack Aubrey and his loyal surgeon Stephen Maturin, in Patrick O'Brien's Admiralty series. On Sun, Jul 3, 2022, 11:48 AM Sylvia McIvers wrote: > On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 3:27 AM Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > > > > Then we see Miles and Ivan, and again their conversation is a delight. > Ivan > > has so many strong memories of his childhood - it's really amazing that > he > > survived Miles. Frankly, he had a great grounding in survival. He'd > > experienced > > more before he even joined the military than most of them go through in > > their entire careers. And he has is own defence mechanisms. And Miles > needs > > Ivan. Miles is the wild genius - but he needs a support network. Ivan's > had > > his back since they were born. > > > > > A genius who didn't have support: Cavilo. And look where it got her. > > > What book (or fic) do you recommend that has a wild genius and a supporting > good friend? > > Holmes springs to mind, and his exasperation with his friend Watson. > > Tinker (by Wen Spencer) is a genius who fiercely loves supporting cousin > Oilcan, who is very very smart but more of a renaissance man than a hyper > focused genius. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From baur at chello.at Mon Jul 4 10:08:11 2022 From: baur at chello.at (baur baur) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 11:08:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda belated comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2121933915.451849.1656925691543@webmail.mymagenta.at> > Raymond Collins hat am 04.07.2022 02:26 geschrieben: > > > This is shear speculation on my part. The Cetagandans comprise three > castes. The Haute, Ghem and the neutered servitude class the Ba. actually i think that is four castes .. Haut, Ghem, Ba and Commoners / Serving class servus markus Originally > I think the first settlers either consisted of either one or two groups the > genetic biologists who had a vision of a superior human species and the > second group who were the support staff. As the biologists utilized genetic > manipulation and early uterine replicators they created a generation of the > first Haute. Eventually the haute became the leading caste and the early > Ceta support class became the Ghem. Somewhere during either, early in the > colony's history or later as the Haute became the leading class the first > Ba caste were genetically modified to be the serving caste. > So we have three or four ages of Cetagandan civilization. The first > age consisted of the settlement of the first colony. While the biologists > tinkered with DNA the support staff was employed to build the labs, > housing, powerplants, security etc. > The transition from the first age to the second was probably gradual as the > first generation of the Haute grew up and became involved in the genetic > engineering and social engineering of the society. This when the culture > transited to the early form of the Cetagandan civilization with Haute > Emperor and empress who controlled all the genetic codes. Sometime around > this time period the great key was created. The third age began with > conquest of the first worlds and the creation of the Satraps. This age of > conquest has been blunted by Barrayar and other worlds powerful enough to > defend themselves from the Cetagandans. At this point it could be > theoretically argued tha Cetaganda is transitioning into the fourth period > of equilibrium. This might have dismayed the deceased Empress who > instigated the transfer of copys of the gene banks to the eight satrapys. > > > On Sun, Jul 3, 2022, 4:34 PM Damien Sullivan wrote: > > > I belatedly noticed the discussion, and ended up re-reading the whole > > book yesterday. Apologies if I cover old ground. > > > > Age of the empire: > > > > "If I knew how the haut-women do it," Maz sighed, "I'd bottle it and > > sell it. No, better?I think I'd keep it for myself. But it seems to have > > worked for the last several hundred years. It is not, of course, the > > only method of Imperial control, to be sure. Only the most overlooked > > one. I find that, in itself, significant. The haut are nothing if not > > subtle." > > > > Age of the Great Key: > > > > "I'm not quite sure. At one time in the past, I believe it had something > > to do with data retrieval from the haut gene banks, but the actual > > device may only be ceremonial by now. I mean, it's a couple of hundred > > years old. It has to be obsolete." > > > > Suggest the Key is rather newer than the empire/haut. > > > > > > Is there a satrap governor for Eta Ceta itself? If so, what did he > > think he was going to do with his gene bank, under the nose of the > > Emperor? > > > > "Eight. One [gene bank] for each of the planetary satraps." > > > > "The first satrap governor had arrived in person only ten days before > > Miles and Ivan had" > > > > There's a consort for Eta Ceta, and apparently matching satraps and > > governors: > > > > "Ah." Miles settled back, smiling fixedly. Now he saw how the Empress > > Lisbet had set up her scheme, the living channels she had used to > > communicate with each satrap governor. If every one of those consorts > > wasn't in on this plot to her eyebrows, he'd eat his boots. Sixteen. I > > have sixteen suspects, not eight. > > > > "Stop me?" repeated the haut-woman in puzzlement. "I am the haut Pel > > Navarr, Consort of Eta Ceta. I live here." > > > > > > Seems like the Empire has *nine* core worlds, 8 satrapies in addition to > > Eta Ceta, and 8 or 9 consorts (if there's one on Eta Ceta to offload > > work from the Empress). > > > > > > There's also > > > > 'Miles supposed eight developed planets and an equal fringe of allied > > and puppet dependencies qualified as a sprawl in any sane person's > > lexicon.' > > > > So core worlds, and dependencies. Here, it's the core worlds that are > > called satrapies. But I think Barrayar has been referred to as "the > > ninth satrapy" > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 10:10:51 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 04:10:51 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda Haut goals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's a interesting question. I don't think there is any mention of Quaddies from the standpoint of the Cetagandans. I suspect that the Cetagandans would consider Quaddies as another form of alien Ba. The Quaddies would consider the Cetagandans as another form of slavers. They would be extremely wary of Cetagandans stealing their genome. On Sun, Jul 3, 2022, 1:47 PM Howard Brazee wrote: > I keep wondering if the plans are limited to only biological/genetic > improvements. Whether they believe cyborg improvements (including memory > brain implants) are heretical. And what they think of Quaddies. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 10:14:24 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 04:14:24 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party July 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I hope you survive the floods and don't get washed out to Peter Jackson's Shire. I'm looking forward to see on Zoom. Stay dry. On Sun, Jul 3, 2022, 7:19 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Elizabeth Holden > > Sorry, Gwynne, I didn't mean to alarm you. I meant EDT, which currently is > GMT -4. Time zones are shifty and confusing things. Tell me the name of > your time zone and I can figure it out for you. (Probably.) > > Gwynne: I'm on Sydney time. Unless this latest flood washes us all out to > sea, > then I'll probably be in New Zealand. According to my converter, in Sydney > time the zoom is at 5 am on Sunday - I don't know if it allows for daylight > savings time, or if it needs to. > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 10:17:42 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 04:17:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm wondering if the Cetagandan ladies have porn and if Ivan could be the star attraction? Hmm, I hope he gets residuals. ;) On Sun, Jul 3, 2022, 7:23 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Sylvia McIvers > > I love Ivan. So do many, many perfume laden ladies sending him letters. > Sylvia > > Gwynne: He does seem to have made an impression, and gained a lot of > eager fans. It almost makes you wonder if Cetagandans aren't quite as good > at everything as they claim to be; the ladies definitely like Ivan's > technique. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 10:23:26 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 04:23:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's obvious that the Star Creche is the most important artifact/genetic library, of the Cetagandans. It's basically their collective future. Lose that, then they lose the entire legacy of their civilization. The Star Creche is the Achilles heal of the Cetagandan civilization. On Sun, Jul 3, 2022, 7:26 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Sylvia McIvers > > Wait wait wait. > Miles was told that the Star Creche is just women, not important at all. > Mia Maz had a slightly differing opinion, and then Rian gave him the clue > bat: Star Creche controls the next generation. > Benin is ghem, he knows the Star Creche is important. > Does Voreedi know that "just women" is not a charming understatement? > Sylvia > > Gwynne: Vorreedi dresses as a ghem lord, and associates mostly with > the ghem. I don't know how aware most of them are about the power of > the Star Creche. And I don't know if Vorreedi would even ask much about > haut women, since they're so unimportant - he's probably more focussed > on the military, and some politics. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 10:35:17 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 04:35:17 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda Haut goals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree with Gwynne's prospective. They are first biologists. Genetics is poetry to them. The introduction of cybernetics would be anathema to them. However the Quaddies would a different and possibly could be a heretical concept. On the other hand I wonder how a Cetagandan Haute or Ghem lord would react if they watched a Queddie dance performance in zero gravity. On Sun, Jul 3, 2022, 7:34 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Howard Brazee > > I keep wondering if the plans are limited to only biological/genetic > improvements. Whether they believe cyborg improvements (including memory > brain implants) are heretical. And what they think of Quaddies. > > Gwynne: I think they'd see cyborgs as cheating. And not elegant enough. > As for quaddies; just too grossly functional, and again lacking in > elegance. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Jul 4 10:47:52 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 09:47:52 +0000 Subject: [LMB] LMB] Cetaganda belated comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Richard Molpus ... There's a mention of the forth social class when the Haut ladies are conferring with Giaja in front of Miles: "In principle," Giaja conceded. "But this generation is not the time. The haut population can expand many times over into space presently held by servitor classes, without need for further territorial aggrandizement. The Empire is enjoying a necessary period of assimilation." Note he says 'Servitor classes'; meaning the Commoners are subdivided into chunks (based on profession white collar/Blue collar work?). The Ghem could take over some of the Servitor's work; giving them extra arena to compete with themselves and others. Gwynne: I wonder if the lower classes are divided by source: there's the ones who are descendants of the original settlers, who've been Cetagandan all along, but working- class, not haut or ghem. Then there's the ones lower than that; the newest intakes, the conquered. There's some comments in later books (which I'm not going to look for right now) that suggest that the Barrayaran people were a resource that would be taken from the planet and used elsewhere. So maybe when they conquer new worlds, some of the population is harvested and used as workers in the nastier jobs on other planets. (That'd make a lot of sense; take most of the conquered people and spread them around so that there aren't enough of them on any planet to make trouble, then settle the nice new clean world with well-behaved servitors and ghem - a big reward for good behaviour.) Possibly clones come below that in status; or maybe not. If a ghem lord invests good money in getting a matching set of servitors they'd have some value. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Jul 4 11:18:47 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 10:18:47 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Raymond Collins It strikes me that the Star Creche is probably the most important cultural artifact of the Cetagandan civilization. If something were to happen to the Star Creche the Cetagandans might be ripped apart. The replication of the Star Creche might also inspire a civil war between the Satraps as each claims that their gene banks are the "real" gene banks closest to the true purpose of the progenitors. This leads me to the conclusion that the Dowager Empress was either off her rocker, totally nuts, or just plain stupid for not realizing that her plan could lead to civil war. Whatever the reason Miles knew this was a bad idea from the start. Gwynne: The Dowager Empress may only have left the Celestial Dome a few times in her life, or not at all. She possibly didn't have much knowledge of or interest in the non-haut part of the empire, and not much contact with Haut males, either - not in ways that taught her how they operate in the world. Her whole focus, for more than a century, was the Star Creche, and she expected the governors to accept her goals as their own. She was probably brilliant at her job, but very limited otherwise. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Jul 4 12:35:57 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 11:35:57 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda Haut goals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it might be wrong to talk about Cetagandan attitudes to anything; there's a huge divergence between Haut and Ghem goals and attitudes, and between Haut Ladies and Haut Lords. The ba probably align completely with the Haut, mostly the Haut ladies. And nobody cares how the servitors feel about anything. From wawenri at msn.com Mon Jul 4 12:53:56 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 11:53:56 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda belated comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Note from GJATRQ: The Ghem are not, or not now, a strictly military class. Some are in the plumbing business. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Damien Sullivan Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2022 8:44:06 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Cetaganda belated comments On Sun, Jul 03, 2022 at 07:26:01PM -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: > This is shear speculation on my part. The Cetagandans comprise three > castes. The Haute, Ghem and the neutered servitude class the Ba. Originally haut, not haute, and rather more than that. As Gwynne said, the ba are specifically servitors (and guinea pigs) for the haut. There are others: ""Ivan was wondering if the haut-lords cloned their servants." Ivan cast Miles a slightly dirty look, for being made the stalking horse, but did not voice an objection. "The ghem-lords sometimes do," said Maz, "but not the haut-lords" "Kety's train was large, as befit his governor's dignity: a couple of dozen ghem-guards, plus ghem-ladies, non-ba servitors in his personal livery, and rather to Miles's dismay, ghem-General Chilian." "In principle," Giaja conceded. "But this generation is not the time. The haut population can expand many times over into space presently held by servitor classes, without need for further territorial aggrandizement. The Empire is enjoying a necessary period of assimilation." Note 'classes', plural. Kety has liveried guards addressed as 'servitor'; I'm not sure if even all soldiers (a la enlisted) are ghem, and private guards probably aren't. My own guess is that you've got haut (and ba), ghem, ordinary citizens/subjects/commoners, and designed/cloned servants for the ghem and maybe wealthy or favored citizens. Being a Cherryh fan, I think of those servitors as 'azi'. I also guess that the azi are technically not legal slaves/chattel, so as to nominally abide by civilization... but good luck getting a job if you're an azi who tries to walk away from your 'employed'. Worse if you're part of a clone-batch, and walking away would throw your entire kin group onto the street in retaliation. I also guess that the haut project before uterine replicators involved a whole lot of pregnancies among the haut (and maybe ghem) women, thus the extreme sexual division among them, and strong prejudice against body-births, even 200 years later. -xx- Damien X-) -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C2ddf511c6dad41cb140208da5d6712c0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637924994519773762%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2FniTaCQax5FrgEIdiqnz1ChXCF%2Be4AG2iTq3M7NH1E0%3D&reserved=0 From wawenri at msn.com Mon Jul 4 13:13:15 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 12:13:15 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time Message-ID: I'm wondering who came up with the idea of changing clocks by government orders. Don't blame Benjamin Franklin. His statement was probably a joke, and he didn't say anything about changing clocks. H suggested ringing bells and setting off cannon to wake everyone up. IIRC, standardized time zones didn't come about until railroads made travel arrangements necessary. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. From alzurite at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 14:22:36 2022 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 09:22:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party July 9 Message-ID: Gwynne and I confront half the planet's time zones. > Gwynne: I'm on Sydney time. Unless this latest flood washes us all out to sea, We'll hope not > According to my converter, in Sydney > time the zoom is at 5 am on Sunday - I don't know if it allows for daylight > savings time, or if it needs to. Yes it needs to, and yes, it did. Sydney is 14 hours ahead of Ottawa time, so 5 a.m. on Sunday it is. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From domelouann at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 14:35:50 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 08:35:50 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda belated comments In-Reply-To: <1313168787.1284645.1656921920725@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1313168787.1284645.1656921920725@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 3:05 AM Richard Molpus wrote: > There's a mention of the forth social class when the Haut ladies are > conferring with Giaja in front of Miles: > "In principle," Giaja conceded. "But this generation is not the time. The > haut population can expand many times over into space presently held by > servitor classes, without need for further territorial aggrandizement." > > Note he says 'Servitor classes'; meaning the Commoners are subdivided into > chunks (based on profession white collar/Blue collar work?). The Ghem could > take over some of the Servitor's work; giving them extra arena to compete > with themselves and others. > And we see a Ghem family that has (gasp!) Gone Into Trade in "Jole." From kcollett at hamilton.edu Mon Jul 4 15:19:52 2022 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Katherine Collett) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 10:19:52 -0400 Subject: [LMB] LMB] Cetaganda belated comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6EB46806-463D-4F15-81B6-637BD279D0BC@hamilton.edu> On Jul 4, 2022, at 5:47 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > There's some comments in later books (which I'm not going to look for > right now) that suggest that the Barrayaran people were a resource that would be > taken from the planet and used elsewhere. So maybe when they conquer new worlds, > some of the population is harvested and used as workers in the nastier jobs on other > planets. (That'd make a lot of sense; take most of the conquered people and spread them > around so that there aren't enough of them on any planet to make trouble, then settle > the nice new clean world with well-behaved servitors and ghem - a big reward for good > behaviour.) Isn't that basically what the Roman Empire did? Recruiting people for the legions and sending them to the opposite end of the Empire. Or maybe that's just in fiction! Katherine (who read a lot of historical fiction about the Romans in her youth. Anyone else familiar with Stephanie Plowman's To Spare the Conquered?) From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 15:30:17 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 09:30:17 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda belated comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Cetagandans might have read Brave New World and taken that society as a model to emulate. "I'm so glad I'm a Beta..." On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 6:54 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Note from GJATRQ: The Ghem are not, or not now, a strictly military class. > Some are in the plumbing business. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Damien Sullivan > Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2022 8:44:06 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [LMB] Cetaganda belated comments > > On Sun, Jul 03, 2022 at 07:26:01PM -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > This is shear speculation on my part. The Cetagandans comprise three > > castes. The Haute, Ghem and the neutered servitude class the Ba. > Originally > > haut, not haute, and rather more than that. As Gwynne said, the ba are > specifically servitors (and guinea pigs) for the haut. There are > others: > > ""Ivan was wondering if the haut-lords cloned their servants." > Ivan cast Miles a slightly dirty look, for being made the stalking > horse, but did not voice an objection. > "The ghem-lords sometimes do," said Maz, "but not the haut-lords" > > "Kety's train was large, as befit his governor's dignity: a couple of > dozen ghem-guards, plus ghem-ladies, non-ba servitors in his personal > livery, and rather to Miles's dismay, ghem-General Chilian." > > "In principle," Giaja conceded. "But this generation is not the time. > The haut population can expand many times over into space presently held > by servitor classes, without need for further territorial > aggrandizement. The Empire is enjoying a necessary period of > assimilation." > > Note 'classes', plural. > > Kety has liveried guards addressed as 'servitor'; I'm not sure if even > all soldiers (a la enlisted) are ghem, and private guards probably > aren't. > > My own guess is that you've got haut (and ba), ghem, ordinary > citizens/subjects/commoners, and designed/cloned servants for the ghem > and maybe wealthy or favored citizens. Being a Cherryh fan, I think of > those servitors as 'azi'. I also guess that the azi are technically not > legal slaves/chattel, so as to nominally abide by civilization... but > good luck getting a job if you're an azi who tries to walk away from > your 'employed'. Worse if you're part of a clone-batch, and walking > away would throw your entire kin group onto the street in retaliation. > > I also guess that the haut project before uterine replicators involved a > whole lot of pregnancies among the haut (and maybe ghem) women, thus the > extreme sexual division among them, and strong prejudice against > body-births, even 200 years later. > > -xx- Damien X-) > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C2ddf511c6dad41cb140208da5d6712c0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637924994519773762%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2FniTaCQax5FrgEIdiqnz1ChXCF%2Be4AG2iTq3M7NH1E0%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 15:34:11 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 09:34:11 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda Haut goals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have wondered what the Haut would think of Steve Stirling's *Homo drakensis*. On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 4:35 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > I agree with Gwynne's prospective. They are first biologists. Genetics is > poetry to them. The introduction of cybernetics would be anathema to them. > However the Quaddies would a different and possibly could be a heretical > concept. On the other hand I wonder how a Cetagandan Haute or Ghem lord > would react if they watched a Queddie dance performance in zero gravity. > > On Sun, Jul 3, 2022, 7:34 PM Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > > From: Howard Brazee > > > > I keep wondering if the plans are limited to only biological/genetic > > improvements. Whether they believe cyborg improvements (including > memory > > brain implants) are heretical. And what they think of Quaddies. > > > > Gwynne: I think they'd see cyborgs as cheating. And not elegant enough. > > As for quaddies; just too grossly functional, and again lacking in > > elegance. > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 15:35:40 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 09:35:40 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Supporting genious- book recs. was Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Frodo Vorkosigan and Ivan Gamgee? On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 4:03 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > C. S. Foresters's Horatio Hornblower and his loyal subordinate and friend > William Bush, Also Jack Aubrey and his loyal surgeon Stephen Maturin, in > Patrick O'Brien's Admiralty series. > > On Sun, Jul 3, 2022, 11:48 AM Sylvia McIvers > wrote: > > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 3:27 AM Gwynne Powell > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Then we see Miles and Ivan, and again their conversation is a delight. > > Ivan > > > has so many strong memories of his childhood - it's really amazing that > > he > > > survived Miles. Frankly, he had a great grounding in survival. He'd > > > experienced > > > more before he even joined the military than most of them go through in > > > their entire careers. And he has is own defence mechanisms. And Miles > > needs > > > Ivan. Miles is the wild genius - but he needs a support network. Ivan's > > had > > > his back since they were born. > > > > > > > > A genius who didn't have support: Cavilo. And look where it got her. > > > > > > What book (or fic) do you recommend that has a wild genius and a > supporting > > good friend? > > > > Holmes springs to mind, and his exasperation with his friend Watson. > > > > Tinker (by Wen Spencer) is a genius who fiercely loves supporting cousin > > Oilcan, who is very very smart but more of a renaissance man than a hyper > > focused genius. > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 15:44:53 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 09:44:53 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Fwd: Random Vorkosigan fanfic idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wouldn't be surprised to find that at the end of the Cetagandan occupation, there were some Barrayarans who found it expedient to leave with the Cetas because they'd been too cozy with them...and their compatriots wanted to talk to them. Urgently. Like the "United Empire Loyalists" who founded Canada. Or how the Vichy French government ended up in Sigmarigen, Germany in 1945 or so, still broadcasting "Radio Paris" from a German castle. On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 7:42 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Margaret Dean > > > Received this from my elder son this morning, and am passing it along as > requested for the amusement of the list! > .... > Anyway, it turns out that *grand-p?re* Miles is a minor character in some > sort of vid-drama series about a Cetagandan boy who turns out to be the > surprise heir to a fictional Barrayaran Countship (as the descendent of a > Vor collaborator who fled at the end of the Occupation) in a classic > fish-out-of-water tale written during a period of > Barrayaran-Cetagandan rapprochement, and the season finale is "inspired by" > the historical Vorbretten case... > Norman > > Gwynne: I've been wondering about tourism. If you look at Japanese and > German tourism these days (well, pre-COVID), they don't seem to have any > problems travelling to places that were involved in WWII. I'm wondering if > there'll start to be some Ceta tourism, visiting places that grand-dad > talked > about. Or if Barrayarans might start to visit Cetaganda, to see what it's > really > like. How long before hostility turns to curiousity? > > And judging by Rene Vorbretten's family embarrassment, there could be > quite a few part-Ceta Barrayarans around; maybe some of them will be > curious > to visit a place that's part of their personal heritage. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From baur at chello.at Mon Jul 4 16:05:58 2022 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 17:05:58 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda Haut goals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: i think they would admire many of the detail solutions that were used on the h. drakensis - i think they would LOVE the pheromone control .. but on the whole i believe they would not like the battle aesthetics of the drakensis servus markus Am 04.07.2022 um 16:34 schrieb Eric Oppen: > I have wondered what the Haut would think of Steve Stirling's *Homo > drakensis*. > > On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 4:35 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > >> I agree with Gwynne's prospective. They are first biologists. Genetics is >> poetry to them. The introduction of cybernetics would be anathema to them. >> However the Quaddies would a different and possibly could be a heretical >> concept. On the other hand I wonder how a Cetagandan Haute or Ghem lord >> would react if they watched a Queddie dance performance in zero gravity. >> >> On Sun, Jul 3, 2022, 7:34 PM Gwynne Powell >> wrote: >> >>> From: Howard Brazee >>> >>> I keep wondering if the plans are limited to only biological/genetic >>> improvements. Whether they believe cyborg improvements (including >> memory >>> brain implants) are heretical. And what they think of Quaddies. >>> >>> Gwynne: I think they'd see cyborgs as cheating. And not elegant enough. >>> As for quaddies; just too grossly functional, and again lacking in >>> elegance. >>> -- >>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >>> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Jul 4 16:09:42 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 15:09:42 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda Haut goals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Can Cetagandans move freely around the Nexus? We see a lot of Barrayarans travelling around, and the trip to Beta, especially the Orb, seems fairly common. Donna went to Beta - nobody had any issue with the travel, just the reason for it. In 'Komarr' Ekaterin was planning for their Nexus trip to get Nikki treated; again it seemed fairly standard to travel widely. Plenty of Barrayarans go to Beta to study. But I can't remember seeing anything about any Cetagandans travelling the Nexus unless they're military (or spies.) Are they allowed to travel? From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Mon Jul 4 17:07:41 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 12:07:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Fwd: Random Vorkosigan fanfic idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jul 2022, Eric Oppen wrote: > I wouldn't be surprised to find that at the end of the Cetagandan > occupation, there were some Barrayarans who found it expedient to leave > with the Cetas because they'd been too cozy with them...and their > compatriots wanted to talk to them. Urgently. Quite possibly true. > Like the "United Empire Loyalists" who founded Canada. This is just not true. a) There were already colonists in Upper Canada (Ontario) and lots of Hudson Bay/Northwest Company outposts in the Prairies and BC well before the 1780s. And the Metis had already established their own settlements in the Red River Valley. And that doesn't even count the many thriving towns/farming settlements in Lower Canada (Quebec) and in the Maritimes from the late 1500s onwards. The UELs did not found Canada. b) Staying loyal to your King is hardly the same as betraying your country. The UELs left because they disagreed with the US declaring its independence but that doesn't mean they were traitors. c) Some of the UELs were black; some were Indigenous and were on the whole better treated in Canada, tho not perfectly. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Mon Jul 4 17:12:48 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 12:12:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda Haut goals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jul 2022, Gwynne Powell wrote: > Can Cetagandans move freely around the Nexus? We see a lot of > Barrayarans travelling around, and the trip to Beta, especially the Orb, > seems fairly common. Donna went to Beta - nobody had any issue with > the travel, just the reason for it. In 'Komarr' Ekaterin was planning for > their Nexus trip to get Nikki treated; again it seemed fairly standard to > travel widely. Plenty of Barrayarans go to Beta to study. > > But I can't remember seeing anything about any Cetagandans travelling > the Nexus unless they're military (or spies.) Are they allowed to travel? Interesting point. Maybe they just drop the face paint, wear standard clothing, and fade into the background until Our Author has a Better Idea? We just don't know enough about the lower levels of Cetagandan society, tho the speculations in the last couple days on the list have been very apropos and interesting. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From huntkc at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 17:16:24 2022 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 12:16:24 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda Haut goals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 11:09 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > Can Cetagandans move freely around the Nexus? We see a lot of > Barrayarans travelling around, and the trip to Beta, especially the Orb, > seems fairly common. Donna went to Beta - nobody had any issue with > the travel, just the reason for it. In 'Komarr' Ekaterin was planning for > their Nexus trip to get Nikki treated; again it seemed fairly standard to > travel widely. Plenty of Barrayarans go to Beta to study. > > But I can't remember seeing anything about any Cetagandans travelling > the Nexus unless they're military (or spies.) Are they allowed to travel? > In Ethan of Athos, Col Luyst Millisor disguised himself as Harman Dal: a Cetagandan arts and artifacts broker. You can't do that disguise unless at least a few people in Cetaganda are doing exactly that. As a note, he and Captain Rau wore face paint, though my money says they weren't matching that of their own ghem-clans. From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Mon Jul 4 17:19:42 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 12:19:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very good point. In contrast, later Vorkosiverse books do mention competition among different Counts' districts for subjects, with people allowed to move from district to district. On the whole though, I think this competition would mainly serve young people with some financial backing and not poorer people with elderly relatives and children who couldn't just easily move. So not a benefit for everyone. OTOH my father moved from Scotland to Canada in 1949 once he finished his engineering degree and then brought his entire family over, so it happens. In fact, his father emigrated to Canada before WWI, but then was so patriotic he had to enlist in a Scottish regiment for the war and so brought his family back again to Scotland (headshake...) Alayne On Mon, 4 Jul 2022, Raymond Collins wrote: > It strikes me that the Star Creche is probably the most important cultural > artifact of the Cetagandan civilization. If something were to happen to the > Star Creche the Cetagandans might be ripped apart. > The replication of the Star Creche might also inspire a civil war between > the Satraps as each claims that their gene banks are the "real" gene banks > closest to the true purpose of the progenitors. This leads me to the > conclusion that the Dowager Empress was either off her rocker, totally > nuts, or just plain stupid for not realizing that her plan could lead to > civil war. > Whatever the reason Miles knew this was a bad idea from the start. > > On Sun, Jul 3, 2022, 12:37 PM Sylvia McIvers > wrote: > >> On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 8:14 AM Gwynne Powell >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Poor Vorreedi. There really should be a club, somewhere, for people >>> who've had to work with Miles. They'd sit there in silence, sipping their >>> drinks, and shuddering now and then. >>> >> >> *fic fic fic fic fic* >> >> >>> >>> Benin knows that Miles is involved, but realises he's not the guilty >> party. >>> He also knows that Miles is playing a game of his own, but it seems to >>> involve the star creche - who are big players in any game. >>> >> >> >> Wait wait wait. >> Miles was told that the Star Creche is just women, not important at all. >> Mia Maz had a slightly differing opinion, and then Rian gave him the clue >> bat: Star Creche controls the next generation. >> >> Benin is ghem, he knows the Star Creche is important. >> Does Voreedi know that "just women" is not a charming understatement? >> >> Sylvia >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> > -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From margdean56 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 17:41:19 2022 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 10:41:19 -0600 Subject: [LMB] LMB] Cetaganda belated comments In-Reply-To: <6EB46806-463D-4F15-81B6-637BD279D0BC@hamilton.edu> References: <6EB46806-463D-4F15-81B6-637BD279D0BC@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 8:20 AM Katherine Collett wrote: > On Jul 4, 2022, at 5:47 AM, Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > > > There's some comments in later books (which I'm not going to look for > > right now) that suggest that the Barrayaran people were a resource that > would be > > taken from the planet and used elsewhere. So maybe when they conquer new > worlds, > > some of the population is harvested and used as workers in the nastier > jobs on other > > planets. (That'd make a lot of sense; take most of the conquered people > and spread them > > around so that there aren't enough of them on any planet to make > trouble, then settle > > the nice new clean world with well-behaved servitors and ghem - a big > reward for good > > behaviour.) > > Isn't that basically what the Roman Empire did? Recruiting people for the > legions and sending them to the opposite end of the Empire. Or maybe > that's just in fiction! > Actually the people who were more known for that strategy (relocating/replacing conquered people en masse) were the Assyrians, and later the Babylonians. Hence the "Babylonian exile" when Judah was conquered. And then the Persian emperor Cyrus conquered Babylon and allowed the Jews to return home! --Margaret Dean From margdean56 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 17:44:10 2022 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 10:44:10 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Supporting genious- book recs. was Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 3:03 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > C. S. Foresters's Horatio Hornblower and his loyal subordinate and friend > William Bush, Also Jack Aubrey and his loyal surgeon Stephen Maturin, in > Patrick O'Brien's Admiralty series. > Although Aubrey and Maturin are more complementary equals, each being a genius in his own way. --Margaret Dean From cjbotteron at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 17:45:33 2022 From: cjbotteron at gmail.com (Carol Botteron) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 12:45:33 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda belated comment Message-ID: Katherine Collett: Isn't that basically what the Roman Empire did? Recruiting people for the legions and sending them to the opposite end of the Empire. Or maybe that's just in fiction! Carol B: Possibly true. Although my paternal ancestors are from the French side of Switzerland, their Y-DNA haplogroup is G2a, indicating origin around the Black and Caspian Seas. One explanation is that Sarmatians (who had a reputation as excellent archers) spread to eastern Europe, where Romans "recruited" them. Archers who lived to retire generally settled down where they happened to be. From rgmolpus at flash.net Mon Jul 4 18:13:33 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 17:13:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda belated comment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <583169544.1416215.1656954813491@mail.yahoo.com> The Romans raised a legion in an area, and then shifted it to a new province. If the Province went rebel, the Legion present would have no trouble suppressing it, as they weren't locals.? Sometimes they moved them a long way - up to England, at Hadrian's wall, sometimes just next door. As people retired from a Legion, they'd be rewarded with a farm (Twenty Acres and a mule?) as a payment for their long years of service - and to increase the pro-roman population of the province. On Monday, July 4, 2022 at 11:46:57 AM CDT, Carol Botteron wrote: Katherine Collett: Isn't that basically what the Roman Empire did?? Recruiting people for the legions and sending them to the opposite end of the Empire.? Or maybe that's just in fiction! Carol B: Possibly true. Although my paternal ancestors are from the French side of Switzerland, their Y-DNA haplogroup is G2a, indicating origin around the Black and Caspian Seas. One explanation is that Sarmatians (who had a reputation as excellent archers) spread to eastern Europe, where Romans "recruited" them. Archers who lived to retire generally settled down where they happened to be. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 18:20:15 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 12:20:15 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda belated comment In-Reply-To: <583169544.1416215.1656954813491@mail.yahoo.com> References: <583169544.1416215.1656954813491@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The Byzantine also did that. On Mon, Jul 4, 2022, 12:13 PM Richard Molpus wrote: > The Romans raised a legion in an area, and then shifted it to a new > province. If the Province went rebel, the Legion present would have no > trouble suppressing it, as they weren't locals. > Sometimes they moved them a long way - up to England, at Hadrian's wall, > sometimes just next door. > > As people retired from a Legion, they'd be rewarded with a farm (Twenty > Acres and a mule?) as a payment for their long years of service - and to > increase the pro-roman population of the province. > > > On Monday, July 4, 2022 at 11:46:57 AM CDT, Carol Botteron < > cjbotteron at gmail.com> wrote: > > Katherine Collett: > Isn't that basically what the Roman Empire did? Recruiting people for the > legions and sending them to the opposite end of the Empire. Or maybe > that's just in fiction! > > Carol B: > Possibly true. Although my paternal ancestors are from the French side of > Switzerland, their Y-DNA haplogroup is G2a, indicating origin around the > Black and Caspian Seas. One explanation is that Sarmatians (who had a > reputation as excellent archers) spread to eastern Europe, where Romans > "recruited" them. Archers who lived to retire generally settled down where > they happened to be. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Mon Jul 4 19:10:58 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 12:10:58 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda Haut goals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9F391AB1-236B-4F98-9062-0BC89D3B6731@brazee.net> > On Jul 4, 2022, at 10:12 AM, alayne--- via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Interesting point. Maybe they just drop the face paint, wear standard clothing, and fade into the background until Our Author has a Better Idea? A big advantage of face paint is being able to remove it. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 21:15:27 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 15:15:27 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: <140E0A0D-07B4-4D14-A287-2B592FFAA1DF@brazee.net> References: <7B051074-10A1-46B7-BBCF-3CEC7E208CB5@panix.com> <434B4B6B-3FA5-4B1C-86D3-253940355C93@panix.com> <140E0A0D-07B4-4D14-A287-2B592FFAA1DF@brazee.net> Message-ID: I found this particular limerick in one of Isaac Asimov's books. On Sun, Jul 3, 2022, 9:29 PM Howard Brazee wrote: > Check here for an article about that Limerick: > > > https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/12/19/lady-bright/#:~:text=%E2%80%A6a%20man%20with%20a%20properly,returned%20on%20the%20previous%20night.&text=And%20returned%20home%20the%20previous%20night.%E2%80%9D > > > On Jul 3, 2022, at 8:26 PM, Harvey wrote: > > > > Neither of those is a limerick which requires a rhyming scheme of AABBA. > > > > Harvey > > > > ------ Original Message ------ > > From "Raymond Collins" > > To "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > > Date 7/3/2022 9:40:58 PM > > Subject Re: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments > > > >> Speaking of limericks > >> > >> A man moved faster then light > >> He left that day in a relative way > >> And returned last Saturday night. > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From mebuckner at bellsouth.net Mon Jul 4 21:17:57 2022 From: mebuckner at bellsouth.net (mebuckner at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 20:17:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda Haut goals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <875792269.459339.1656965878001@mail.yahoo.com> Long time lurker and all that. (I think I may have posted once or twice before, years ago.) In Chapter Fifteen of The Warrior's Apprentice, Bel Thorne, Arde Mayhew, and Baz Jesek manage to scrounge up a bunch of recruits for the Dendarii from among the assorted galactics stuck in Felice by the Pelian blockade. Among them are "two dozen Cetagandan ghem-fighters, variously dressed, but all with full formal face paint freshly applied, looking like an array of Chinese temple demons". Poor Bothari immediately clutches his plasma arc at the sight of them. (Speaking of Bothari, also among the recruits was a certain Escobaran tech officer, Elena Visconti.) A "Cetgandan ghem-captain" is mentioned a few times later on as participating in the command meetings of the Dendarii; he does NOT get along with the lieutenant from the "Kshatryan Imperial mercenaries". Most of these recruits are only temporary--"almost everybody wants to be discharged outside Felician local space". The mind rather boggles at the thought of a Cetagandan ghem-lord deciding he wants to sign up with the Dendarii permanently.... (Hey, they've got a really good benefits package!) Michael B. On Monday, July 4, 2022 at 11:10:00 AM EDT, Gwynne Powell wrote: Can Cetagandans move freely around the Nexus? We see a lot of Barrayarans travelling around, and the trip to Beta, especially the Orb, seems fairly common. Donna went to Beta - nobody had any issue with the travel, just the reason for it. In 'Komarr' Ekaterin was planning for their Nexus trip to get Nikki treated; again it seemed fairly standard to travel widely. Plenty of Barrayarans go to Beta to study. But I can't remember seeing anything about any Cetagandans travelling the Nexus unless they're military (or spies.) Are they allowed to travel? -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mebuckner at bellsouth.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From fishman at panix.com Mon Jul 4 21:20:14 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2022 20:20:14 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <7B051074-10A1-46B7-BBCF-3CEC7E208CB5@panix.com> <434B4B6B-3FA5-4B1C-86D3-253940355C93@panix.com> <140E0A0D-07B4-4D14-A287-2B592FFAA1DF@brazee.net> Message-ID: Calling something a limerick does not make it one. A limerick is a five line poem, often rude, with a rhyming scheme of AABBA. Accept no substitutes!! Harvey ------ Original Message ------ >From "Raymond Collins" To "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Date 7/4/2022 4:15:27 PM Subject Re: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments >I found this particular limerick in one of Isaac Asimov's books. > >On Sun, Jul 3, 2022, 9:29 PM Howard Brazee wrote: > >>Check here for an article about that Limerick: >> >> >>https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/12/19/lady-bright/#:~:text=%E2%80%A6a%20man%20with%20a%20properly,returned%20on%20the%20previous%20night.&text=And%20returned%20home%20the%20previous%20night.%E2%80%9D >> >> > On Jul 3, 2022, at 8:26 PM, Harvey wrote: >> > >> > Neither of those is a limerick which requires a rhyming scheme of AABBA. >> > >> > Harvey >> > >> > ------ Original Message ------ >> > From "Raymond Collins" >> > To "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." < >>lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> >> > Date 7/3/2022 9:40:58 PM >> > Subject Re: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments >> > >> >> Speaking of limericks >> >> >> >> A man moved faster then light >> >> He left that day in a relative way >> >> And returned last Saturday night. >> >> >>-- >>Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >>Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> >-- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From kawyle at att.net Mon Jul 4 21:23:12 2022 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 20:23:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <7B051074-10A1-46B7-BBCF-3CEC7E208CB5@panix.com> <434B4B6B-3FA5-4B1C-86D3-253940355C93@panix.com> <140E0A0D-07B4-4D14-A287-2B592FFAA1DF@brazee.net> Message-ID: <1938032584.1463401.1656966192385@mail.yahoo.com> I believe there's a line missing from the Asimov limerick (and other details that differ). One website full of quotations gives it as follows: There was a young lady named Bright Whose speed was far faster than light; She set out one day In a relative way And returned on the previous night. Karen On Monday, July 4, 2022, 04:20:23 PM EDT, Harvey wrote: Calling something a limerick does not make it one. A limerick is a five line poem, often rude, with a rhyming scheme of AABBA. Accept no substitutes!! Harvey ------ Original Message ------ >From "Raymond Collins" To "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Date 7/4/2022 4:15:27 PM Subject Re: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments >I found this particular limerick in one of Isaac Asimov's books. > >> >>? ? A man moved faster then light >> >>? ? He left that day in a relative way >> >>? ? And returned last Saturday night. >> From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 21:35:13 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 15:35:13 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think your right. She was naive because she was so isolated from the outside world, and probably didn't realize how powerful the star Creche would be in the wrong hands. However I believe somebody had to warn her what the consequences of handing out such a valuable artifact to people who had been genetically bred to be competitive. On Mon, Jul 4, 2022, 5:18 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Raymond Collins > > It strikes me that the Star Creche is probably the most important cultural > artifact of the Cetagandan civilization. If something were to happen to the > Star Creche the Cetagandans might be ripped apart. > The replication of the Star Creche might also inspire a civil war between > the Satraps as each claims that their gene banks are the "real" gene banks > closest to the true purpose of the progenitors. This leads me to the > conclusion that the Dowager Empress was either off her rocker, totally > nuts, or just plain stupid for not realizing that her plan could lead to > civil war. > Whatever the reason Miles knew this was a bad idea from the start. > > Gwynne: The Dowager Empress may only have left the Celestial Dome a few > times in her life, or not at all. She possibly didn't have much knowledge > of or > interest in the non-haut part of the empire, and not much contact with Haut > males, either - not in ways that taught her how they operate in the world. > Her > whole focus, for more than a century, was the Star Creche, and she expected > the governors to accept her goals as their own. She was probably brilliant > at > her job, but very limited otherwise. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From lmb at matija.com Mon Jul 4 21:54:51 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 21:54:51 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <7B051074-10A1-46B7-BBCF-3CEC7E208CB5@panix.com> <434B4B6B-3FA5-4B1C-86D3-253940355C93@panix.com> <140E0A0D-07B4-4D14-A287-2B592FFAA1DF@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 04/07/2022 21:20, Harvey wrote: > Calling something a limerick does not make it one. A limerick is a > five line poem, often rude, with a rhyming scheme of AABBA. Accept no > substitutes!! You mean something like this description? The limerick packs laughs anatomical Into space that is quite economical. But the good ones I?ve seen So seldom are clean And the clean ones so seldom are comical. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 21:55:53 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 15:55:53 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, before the railroads each town had their own ideas of when to set the clocks. Later train schedules made it mandatory to have standard time zones. It was during WWI that Daylight Saving came about. After WWI the United States went back to the original time zones until WWII. I assume because of the cold war we stuck with Daylight Saving. I guess you could blame Woodrow Wilson for signing the order that started the whole mess. On Mon, Jul 4, 2022, 7:13 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > I'm wondering who came up with the idea of changing clocks by government > orders. Don't blame Benjamin Franklin. His statement was probably a joke, > and he didn't say anything about changing clocks. H suggested ringing bells > and setting off cannon to wake everyone up. > IIRC, standardized time zones didn't come about until railroads made > travel arrangements necessary. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From lmb at matija.com Mon Jul 4 22:09:02 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 22:09:02 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> On 04/07/2022 21:55, Raymond Collins wrote: > Well, before the railroads each town had their own ideas of when to set the > clocks. Basically, what you do is you stick a stick into the ground, and watch it's shadow. When the shadow stops getting shorter, it is local noon, and time to synchronize watches. Or clock towers, as the case may be. From fishman at panix.com Mon Jul 4 22:30:20 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2022 21:30:20 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <7B051074-10A1-46B7-BBCF-3CEC7E208CB5@panix.com> <434B4B6B-3FA5-4B1C-86D3-253940355C93@panix.com> <140E0A0D-07B4-4D14-A287-2B592FFAA1DF@brazee.net> Message-ID: Yup. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ >From "Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold" To lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Cc "Matija Grabnar" Date 7/4/2022 4:54:51 PM Subject Re: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments > >On 04/07/2022 21:20, Harvey wrote: >>Calling something a limerick does not make it one. A limerick is a five line poem, often rude, with a rhyming scheme of AABBA. Accept no substitutes!! > >You mean something like this description? > >The limerick packs laughs anatomical >Into space that is quite economical. >But the good ones I?ve seen >So seldom are clean >And the clean ones so seldom are comical. > > From howard at brazee.net Mon Jul 4 22:45:43 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 15:45:43 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <7B051074-10A1-46B7-BBCF-3CEC7E208CB5@panix.com> <434B4B6B-3FA5-4B1C-86D3-253940355C93@panix.com> <140E0A0D-07B4-4D14-A287-2B592FFAA1DF@brazee.net> Message-ID: Not for me. > On Jul 4, 2022, at 3:30 PM, Harvey wrote: > > Yup. > > Harvey > > ------ Original Message ------ > From "Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold" > To lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Cc "Matija Grabnar" > Date 7/4/2022 4:54:51 PM > Subject Re: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments > >> >> On 04/07/2022 21:20, Harvey wrote: >>> Calling something a limerick does not make it one. A limerick is a five line poem, often rude, with a rhyming scheme of AABBA. Accept no substitutes!! >> >> You mean something like this description? >> >> The limerick packs laughs anatomical >> Into space that is quite economical. >> But the good ones I?ve seen >> So seldom are clean >> And the clean ones so seldom are comical. >> >> > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to howard at brazee.net > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From domelouann at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 22:55:33 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 16:55:33 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> References: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 4:09 PM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On 04/07/2022 21:55, Raymond Collins wrote: > > Well, before the railroads each town had their own ideas of when to set > the > > clocks. > > Basically, what you do is you stick a stick into the ground, and watch > it's shadow. > When the shadow stops getting shorter, it is local noon, and time to > synchronize watches. > This is great for local astronomical accuracy. But Bad Things Happen to trains, involving major transfers of kinetic energy, if they can't agree on *exactly* what time it is in a given spot. From howard at brazee.net Mon Jul 4 22:57:04 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 15:57:04 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 4, 2022, at 3:55 PM, Louann Miller wrote: > >> Basically, what you do is you stick a stick into the ground, and watch >> it's shadow. >> When the shadow stops getting shorter, it is local noon, and time to >> synchronize watches. >> > > This is great for local astronomical accuracy. But Bad Things Happen to > trains, involving major transfers of kinetic energy, if they can't agree on > *exactly* what time it is in a given spot. I used to have a map on my wall showing world time zones. In Saudi Arabia the time was set at sunrise. From fishman at panix.com Mon Jul 4 23:13:11 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2022 22:13:11 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <7B051074-10A1-46B7-BBCF-3CEC7E208CB5@panix.com> <434B4B6B-3FA5-4B1C-86D3-253940355C93@panix.com> <140E0A0D-07B4-4D14-A287-2B592FFAA1DF@brazee.net> Message-ID: They're all out of step but Howard. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ >From "Howard Brazee" To "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Date 7/4/2022 5:45:43 PM Subject Re: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments >Not for me. > >>On Jul 4, 2022, at 3:30 PM, Harvey wrote: >> >>Yup. >> >>Harvey >> >>------ Original Message ------ >>From "Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold" >>To lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>Cc "Matija Grabnar" >>Date 7/4/2022 4:54:51 PM >>Subject Re: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments >> >>> >>>On 04/07/2022 21:20, Harvey wrote: >>>>Calling something a limerick does not make it one. A limerick is a five line poem, often rude, with a rhyming scheme of AABBA. Accept no substitutes!! >>> >>>You mean something like this description? >>> >>>The limerick packs laughs anatomical >>>Into space that is quite economical. >>>But the good ones I?ve seen >>>So seldom are clean >>>And the clean ones so seldom are comical. >>> >>> >> >> >>-- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to howard at brazee.net >>Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > >-- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From cjbotteron at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 23:23:20 2022 From: cjbotteron at gmail.com (Carol Botteron) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 18:23:20 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments Message-ID: Harvey: Calling something a limerick does not make it one. A limerick is a five line poem, often rude, with a rhyming scheme of AABBA. Accept no substitutes!! Carol: If you prefer to sing your limericks, there are songs with the right meter, such as this one from Gilbert & Sullivan's "The Sorcerer": Oh! my name is john wellington wells, i'm a dealer in magic and spells, in blessings and curses and ever-filled purses, in prophecies, witches, and knells. [etc.] From loisaletafundis at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 23:49:47 2022 From: loisaletafundis at gmail.com (Lois Aleta Fundis) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 18:49:47 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And think how much more confusing it would be with even more modern technology, like television and airlines! My dad worked for the Pennsylvania Railroad -- as did his father and grandfather -- and the only complant he had about it was switching from Standard to Daylight time. On Monday, July 4, 2022, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > I'm wondering who came up with the idea of changing clocks by government > orders. Don't blame Benjamin Franklin. His statement was probably a joke, > and he didn't say anything about changing clocks. H suggested ringing bells > and setting off cannon to wake everyone up. > IIRC, standardized time zones didn't come about until railroads made > travel arrangements necessary. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to loisaletafundis at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois Aleta Fundis loisaletafundis at gmail.com [image: image.png] From kcollett at hamilton.edu Tue Jul 5 00:59:31 2022 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Katherine Collett) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 19:59:31 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10FD9110-5DCE-457A-9DD9-3CE8A9FE8FAC@hamilton.edu> On Jul 4, 2022, at 6:23 PM, Carol Botteron wrote: > > Harvey: > Calling something a limerick does not make it one. A limerick is a five > line poem, often rude, with a rhyming scheme of AABBA. Accept no > substitutes!! > > Carol: > If you prefer to sing your limericks, there are songs with the right meter, > such as this one from Gilbert & Sullivan's "The Sorcerer": > Oh! my name is john wellington wells, > i'm a dealer in magic and spells, > in blessings and curses > and ever-filled purses, > in prophecies, witches, and knells. It's not just the rhyme scheme, it's the rhythm, too -- it's pretty flexible (mostly anapest), but always has three strong beats in the first, second, and fifth line, and two in the third and fourth. Setting it to music certainly helps get the rhythm right! Gilbert's lines 1, 2, and 5 are perfect anapestic trimeter (except 5 is missing a first weak syllable). Katherine From margdean56 at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 03:00:21 2022 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 20:00:21 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: <10FD9110-5DCE-457A-9DD9-3CE8A9FE8FAC@hamilton.edu> References: <10FD9110-5DCE-457A-9DD9-3CE8A9FE8FAC@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 5:59 PM Katherine Collett wrote: > On Jul 4, 2022, at 6:23 PM, Carol Botteron wrote: > > > > Harvey: > > Calling something a limerick does not make it one. A limerick is a five > > line poem, often rude, with a rhyming scheme of AABBA. Accept no > > substitutes!! > > > > Carol: > > If you prefer to sing your limericks, there are songs with the right > meter, > > such as this one from Gilbert & Sullivan's "The Sorcerer": > > Oh! my name is john wellington wells, > > i'm a dealer in magic and spells, > > in blessings and curses > > and ever-filled purses, > > in prophecies, witches, and knells. > > It's not just the rhyme scheme, it's the rhythm, too -- it's pretty > flexible (mostly anapest), but always has three strong beats in the first, > second, and fifth line, and two in the third and fourth. Setting it to > music certainly helps get the rhythm right! Gilbert's lines 1, 2, and 5 > are perfect anapestic trimeter (except 5 is missing a first weak syllable). > Oh, yes, that's brilliant! From now on my test for "Is this really a limerick (in form)?" will be "Can you sing it to the tune of 'My name is John Wellington Wells'?" --Margaret Dean, warbling delightedly From lmb at matija.com Tue Jul 5 08:08:11 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 08:08:11 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> Message-ID: <76c4124f-16e5-2770-2720-50a9383e60ce@matija.com> Oh I agree, and those days saw some horrific kinetic events on the rails. But even at a more trivial level it was a concern. To sell tickets (and even for freight) you need timetables. Imagine calculating a time-table. A train leaves town A at 10, going 40 mph to? town B, 80 miles away. What time does it arrive? Well, that depends. Is town B east, or west, of town A? On 04/07/2022 22:55, Louann Miller wrote: > On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 4:09 PM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > >> On 04/07/2022 21:55, Raymond Collins wrote: >>> Well, before the railroads each town had their own ideas of when to set >> the >>> clocks. >> Basically, what you do is you stick a stick into the ground, and watch >> it's shadow. >> When the shadow stops getting shorter, it is local noon, and time to >> synchronize watches. >> > This is great for local astronomical accuracy. But Bad Things Happen to > trains, involving major transfers of kinetic energy, if they can't agree on > *exactly* what time it is in a given spot. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Jul 5 12:33:53 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 11:33:53 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda Haut goals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Karen Hunt In Ethan of Athos, Col Luyst Millisor disguised himself as Harman Dal: a Cetagandan arts and artifacts broker. You can't do that disguise unless at least a few people in Cetaganda are doing exactly that. As a note, he and Captain Rau wore face paint, though my money says they weren't matching that of their own ghem-clans. Gwynne: So they can travel for business, but that's not the same as general tourism. And it'd be in the government's interests to have a few businessmen travelling around to be cover for their spies. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Jul 5 12:50:58 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 11:50:58 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda Haut goals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "mebuckner at bellsouth.net" Long time lurker and all that. (I think I may have posted once or twice before, years ago.) In Chapter Fifteen of The Warrior's Apprentice, Bel Thorne, Arde Mayhew, and Baz Jesek manage to scrounge up a bunch of recruits for the Dendarii from among the assorted galactics stuck in Felice by the Pelian blockade. Among them are "two dozen Cetagandan ghem-fighters, variously dressed, but all with full formal face paint freshly applied, looking like an array of Chinese temple demons". ..... Michael B. Gwynne: I wondered about that - but they're fighters, not tourists. I wonder if they were accidently cut off from their ship - even caught by the blockade when they were on shore leave. But they're definitely a military group. I don't think most of the Nexus would have a problem with Cetagandan tourists (apart from assuming most of them are spies - and they probably would be) but I wonder how easy it is for normal, non-military Cetagandans to get a passport and head off for a trip to the Nexus. Would their own government allow them to travel? From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Jul 5 12:57:55 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 11:57:55 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Louann Miller This is great for local astronomical accuracy. But Bad Things Happen to trains, involving major transfers of kinetic energy, if they can't agree on *exactly* what time it is in a given spot. Gwynne: I have enormous respect for the people who handle airline timetables. It's so confusing gaining a day when you go one way, and losing it when you go another (when you travel anywhere from Australia you're generally going long distances, so you hit a lot of time zones on the way.) From howard at brazee.net Tue Jul 5 13:26:44 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 06:26:44 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: <76c4124f-16e5-2770-2720-50a9383e60ce@matija.com> References: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> <76c4124f-16e5-2770-2720-50a9383e60ce@matija.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 5, 2022, at 1:08 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Oh I agree, and those days saw some horrific kinetic events on the rails. > > But even at a more trivial level it was a concern. To sell tickets (and even for freight) you need timetables. > > Imagine calculating a time-table. A train leaves town A at 10, going 40 mph to town B, 80 miles away. > > What time does it arrive? Well, that depends. Is town B east, or west, of town A? No problem if the whole trip is in China. It only has one time zone. From litalex at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 14:05:23 2022 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 09:05:23 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, > On Jul 5, 2022, at 07:57, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Gwynne: I have enormous respect for the people who handle airline timetables. > It's so confusing gaining a day when you go one way, and losing it when you go > another (when you travel anywhere from Australia you're generally going long It?s probably all done by computer these days? But back in the hey days, yeah, must have been really complicated work. Though it?s interesting that the job was probably created only after jet airplanes were invented, and now is a bit obsolete ? so the job only existed for a few decades. little Alex From wawenri at msn.com Tue Jul 5 14:45:46 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 13:45:46 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: <76c4124f-16e5-2770-2720-50a9383e60ce@matija.com> References: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> <76c4124f-16e5-2770-2720-50a9383e60ce@matija.com> Message-ID: What if towns A and B are in different time zones? I would prefer not changing clocks for DST. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold Sent: Tuesday, July 5, 2022 1:08:11 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Cc: Matija Grabnar Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time Oh I agree, and those days saw some horrific kinetic events on the rails. But even at a more trivial level it was a concern. To sell tickets (and even for freight) you need timetables. Imagine calculating a time-table. A train leaves town A at 10, going 40 mph to town B, 80 miles away. What time does it arrive? Well, that depends. Is town B east, or west, of town A? On 04/07/2022 22:55, Louann Miller wrote: > On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 4:09 PM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > >> On 04/07/2022 21:55, Raymond Collins wrote: >>> Well, before the railroads each town had their own ideas of when to set >> the >>> clocks. >> Basically, what you do is you stick a stick into the ground, and watch >> it's shadow. >> When the shadow stops getting shorter, it is local noon, and time to >> synchronize watches. >> > This is great for local astronomical accuracy. But Bad Things Happen to > trains, involving major transfers of kinetic energy, if they can't agree on > *exactly* what time it is in a given spot. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C38ec6e5ee23b4f2c0c0608da5e552552%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637926017061937953%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=N5nmSntduRlLKV1YEwXWS0iwXsBtSmKqB%2Fqf%2FgmAwZw%3D&reserved=0 From howard at brazee.net Tue Jul 5 14:52:22 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 07:52:22 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> <76c4124f-16e5-2770-2720-50a9383e60ce@matija.com> Message-ID: <01FF8DF6-5ED1-4472-83FE-719976BEA887@brazee.net> > On Jul 5, 2022, at 7:45 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > What if towns A and B are in different time zones? I would prefer not changing clocks for DST. Or if they are in different time zones only part of the year? (One has DST and the other doesn?t) From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 14:55:47 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 09:55:47 -0400 Subject: [LMB] rhyme and rhythm, was Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Harvey: > Calling something a limerick does not make it one. A limerick is a five > line poem, often rude, with a rhyming scheme of AABBA. Accept no > substitutes!! > Running jodys also have a particular rhyme & rhythm scheme. Most of the time. Hear us as we sing dis song Sing it as we run along Why we sing it we can't say We can't even make it rhyme properly -- jody sung by Detritus, can't remember which book, by Terry Pratchett From lmb at matija.com Tue Jul 5 15:32:54 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 15:32:54 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> <76c4124f-16e5-2770-2720-50a9383e60ce@matija.com> Message-ID: <3f7fbcbe-d26e-ce33-da29-f4962c91f11e@matija.com> That's the point I was trying to make: Back in the time before there were time-zones, when every town set it's clock by when the local noon was, every town was effectively in it's own "timezone" (shared only with towns exactly to the south or exactly to the north of it). Trying to work out a timetable when you have towns with "time-zones" one minute wide is what led to the invention of one-hour wide? time-zones. As for changing clocks for DST, I absolutely agree with you. It's a stupid, and whatever dubious advantage it had in WW2, they don't apply any more. On 05/07/2022 14:45, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > What if towns A and B are in different time zones? I would prefer not > changing clocks for DST. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Lois-Bujold on behalf > of Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 5, 2022 1:08:11 AM > *To:* lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > *Cc:* Matija Grabnar > *Subject:* Re: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time > Oh I agree, and those days saw some horrific kinetic events on the rails. > > But even at a more trivial level it was a concern. To sell tickets (and > even for freight) you need timetables. > > Imagine calculating a time-table. A train leaves town A at 10, going 40 > mph to? town B, 80 miles away. > > What time does it arrive? Well, that depends. Is town B east, or west, > of town A? > > On 04/07/2022 22:55, Louann Miller wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 4:09 PM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > >> On 04/07/2022 21:55, Raymond Collins wrote: > >>> Well, before the railroads each town had their own ideas of when > to set > >> the > >>> clocks. > >> Basically, what you do is you stick a stick into the ground, and watch > >> it's shadow. > >> When the shadow stops getting shorter, it is local noon, and time to > >> synchronize watches. > >> > > This is great for local astronomical accuracy. But Bad Things Happen to > > trains, involving major transfers of kinetic energy, if they can't > agree on > > *exactly* what time it is in a given spot. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C38ec6e5ee23b4f2c0c0608da5e552552%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637926017061937953%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=N5nmSntduRlLKV1YEwXWS0iwXsBtSmKqB%2Fqf%2FgmAwZw%3D&reserved=0 > From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Tue Jul 5 15:42:49 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 10:42:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: <01FF8DF6-5ED1-4472-83FE-719976BEA887@brazee.net> References: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> <76c4124f-16e5-2770-2720-50a9383e60ce@matija.com> <01FF8DF6-5ED1-4472-83FE-719976BEA887@brazee.net> Message-ID: The man who developed time zones was a Canadian (and ex-Scottish) - Sandford Fleming. I highly recommend Clark Blaise's biography of him, _Time Lord_. >From the book description: "Today we take the accurate telling of time across the world for granted. Yet little more than a hundred years ago, people even in neighbouring towns lived by different time schedules: noon was simply whenever the sun happened to be overhead--Toronto time, for example, was different from Hamilton time some forty miles away. None of this mattered when people travelled in the slow style that had been the norm for generations. But then, as Clark Blaise makes vividly clear, trains arrived--and in the new age of communications myriad local times became a mind-boggling obstacle, and the rational ordering of time an urgent priority. Sandford Fleming, a young emigrant from Scotland, performed the remarkable task of solving the unfathomable temporal riddle of how to knit together a world stippled with thousands of local times. That invention was the start of an exhausting campaign to persuade the squabbling international powers, the diplomats and scientists, to adopt a unified time system--a campaign that came to a dramatic conclusion at the Prime Meridian Conference in 1884. His achievement turned out to be one of the greatest gifts of the Victorian Age to our global modern world. This was the great "Decade of Time," as Blaise calls it, that extraordinary ten years that also saw the invention of electric light, the telephone, Impressionism and high-speed cameras. "... At the heart of the story is the mild but fierce-minded communications genius who sketched and surveyed his way from coast to coast, oversaw the building of the great Canadian railroad, designed the first Beaver stamp, and invented the world-circling, sub-Pacific cab - who saw the world as a whole and changed its nature forever." According to http://www.sandfordfleming.ca/en/f4032.html, Sandford Fleming never experienced daylight saving time, which was proposed by the [Canadian] federal government in 1918. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Jul 5 15:44:59 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 14:44:59 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The garden party is in a beautiful (of course) garden on top of a building half a kilometre tall, with a lovely view of the Celestial Garden. Vorob'yev has been grudgingly allowed to escort the two Barrayarans, all of them in their House Blacks - ohhh that must look impressive. This party is the absolute opposite of Yenaro's. The people here are the ones who think they run the Empire, each of them a century older than Yenaro and his drone friends. Lady d'Har, the hostess, is the haut wife of Ghem-general d'Har, who runs half of the Cetagandan fleet. Neither of them seem desperately excited to see the Barrayarans, but they're polite. The general is wearing one medal only: the Order of Merit, given only by the Emperor himself. If you have that you don't need anything else. That and his Haut wife are the two highest honours around. Lady d'Har isn't pretending to be in a bubble - apparently on your own territory you can de-bubble. Ivan is on the hunt, of course, but there's no willing young ghem-ladies around. It's not that sort of party. There's half a dozen bubbles scattered around the gardens; lady d'Har apparently keeps in touch with the old crowd. Vorob'yev is still wondering how they got the invitation; Miles says he was told to study the power hierarchy. But is it? There's a lot of different kinds of power in this empire. They circulate, nobody is eager to chat with them yet. Finally they see an unbubbled haut woman; Vio d'Chilian - the consort of the ghem-general who works with Kety. Their hostess was fairly senior; this is the first young haut lady Ivan's seen. He strikes up a conversation, which is totally the wrong thing to do. Miles doesn't feel much of a pull towards her; he's immune because of his fixation on Rian. (If he'd seen Vio first, would he have fallen for her instead?) Vio is staring at the Celestial Garden, and she's not happy. She's rescued from Ivan's conversation by her... husband? Lord? Owner? Seeing two people closely connected to Kety makes Miles wonder if this is a trap rather than a contact from Rian. A haut bubble bobs up to them, and instead of avoiding or ignoring them it asks Miles for a private word. For about an hour. Vorob'yev isn't delighted. He asks if Miles would like a guard, or a com-link. "You will be careful?" Which was diplomatic for Are you sure you know what the hell you're doing, boy? They find a quiet nook and she drops her shield. She's a blonde, probably middle-aged for a haut, but who can be sure? She wants Miles to perch on the armrest of her chair and go with her, but he asks for identification first. She has a star creche ring, which is probably good enough. Miles gets to ride in the bubble, past Ivan and Vorob'yev - and there's a strange sense of power in seeing them, hearing their conversation, without them knowing who it is going past them. Maybe being in a bubble wouldn't be all bad. (I wonder if they ever hit people intentionally?) Their hostess is waiting at the edge of the roof to turn off part of the force shield. Guess what? Bubbles can't fly, but they can do a controlled glide off the top of an incredibly tall building, and skim across the roads outside the dome to arrive neatly at an entrance to the Celestial Garden. Miles manages to avoid heart failure on the trip. His pilot is quite calm, and is actually enjoying herself: "I haven't done that in years." They go through the security check as if it isn't there. She blips a security code at them, and that's all. Besides, she's the haut Pel, she's the consort of Eta Ceta. (Note, not the consort of any governor, or anyone else. They were referred to as planetary consorts, and that's what they are; she's the consort of the planet.) They scoot through the gardens to the star creche labs. She takes him to a large room, with no pretty artistic decorations - this is a work space. Eight women are waiting for him - all incredibly beautiful. Yes, these are the planetary consorts. Each one a different combination of hair, skin and eye colours - they are works of art. Introductions all round, then he is asked to bring them all up to date on events. Miles asks, delicately (for him) if one of them might be a traitor. Rian and the girls have done some investigation, and there is (of course) no treason from any of them, it's a bit further down the chain. They think he's already chosen a new consort, one he can control. But they don't know who yet. (Well it seems that each governor has a ghem-general, and each ghem-general has a haut trophy wife.) Miles wants to know about the bubbles; can anyone use them? No, they're keyed to the user. Genetically. Ah, but... how about close relatives? Well... it identifies a dozen key markers to show it's a haut woman, but if a woman who was closely related used someone's chair... it might be fooled. Benin said that six bubbles entered the funeral rotunda before the ba-dump. So if someone could see who those bubbles belonged to, and check with the owners... yes, they could. And find the woman that way. Except that they'd need the Great Key. (Why do I keep hearing 'There's a hole in the bucket...) Miles says that he's basically narrowed it down to Slyke or Kety, with the smart money on Kety. Miles finally gets to his testimony, and brings them all up to date. Rian isn't interested in hiding anything, she questions him on details to get all the information on the table. As they go on, Rian starts to seem less and less like a maiden in distress, and more like the dragon. Yes Miles, these women are ruthless. The women aren't shocked at the latest attempt on his life; they actually seem to appreciate the artistry of it. But they are NOT appreciative of the governor's attempt to take over their own power base. Miles offers Ivan's plan; recall the gene banks. If he returns it, you've stopped his power. If he doesn't return it, you've identified him. And he can't run until after the funeral; they have that long. Once they have the gene banks back again, the key won't help him, and they could negotiate its return for anonymity. There's a bit of disunity in the ranks; if they recall the gene banks they miss the chance to carry out the plan, for some time to come. But they don't all agree that the governors can be trusted. And they're not quite sure what the ba Lura was up to, if it was following orders or a plan from the Empress, or trying to, or being led by someone else. There's a slight criticism of Rian for acting alone, too. Should they change the genome to make the haut lords more controllable? But for 'renewed expansion' they need more aggression. "The ghem-experiment, filtering favorable genetic combinations upward from the general population, surely suffices for that," ...... so they must have a way of breeding some ghem with the servitor class? Servitors moving up as rewards and mingling with the ghem? But they need further refinement before further expansion. (Expansion where??? Taking over the Nexus???) Ok, they decide to tell the governors that there's a mistake, and they need the gene banks back again. And bring them back as genomic material requested by the old Empress before her death. The rest of the ladies bubble up and leave; Miles waits with Pel and Rian. He asks if they want him to get the key. Miles is still working on two levels; he's desperately infatuated with Rian, but at the same time he's analytical and logical. Pel takes Miles back to the party. This time they use the lift (elevator). One the way Miles chats cheerily with her; he asks about all the beautiful creations in the gardens. The 'lower life forms' are the work of the ghem-ladies, their highest reward is to have it on show in the Celesial Gardens. The haut only work on humans. They field-test ideas in the ba - thus preventing accidental release because the ba are non-sexual. The highest honour for the haut is to have a gene complex they've developed being taken into the haut genome. Pel releases him in a secluded nook, and bobs away. He sits and stares at the Celestial Garden until Ivan and Vorob'yev find him. Ivan looks scared, Vorob'yev looks angry. And they leave the party. Well, that was a nice night out. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Jul 5 16:00:24 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 15:00:24 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some really interesting moments in this chapter - it's a quiet chapter, but we see more of the Star Creche in action. Miles ends up wondering about power in the Cetagandan empire. At the party he's surrounded by the ghem power elite, all the highest military men. They have the power to start wars and invasions - and they have, several times. And not necessarily with Imperial permission beforehand. And, to Miles, military power had always been the strongest thing around. But there's other powers in the empire. The haut men (some of them - the ones with jobs) control the ghem. They give out medals - ranging up to the Order of Merit, trophy wives, attendance at events in the Celestial Garden, and various forms of status. The haut women control the haut men, and create all the haut. Plus, it seems, they manipulate some genomes among the ghem and the servitor class, as experiments. One hint that the haut ladies are the most powerful is that the other two groups don't seem to be so aware of what's really going on. Quick summary of the above: Ghem power is destructive, Haut power is creative. Pel's comment about jumping off a building is interesting; apparently when she was younger she enjoyed doing that. So do haut ladies have bubble competitions? Do they all line up and jump off tall buildings? Have races? At what age do they get a bubble - I have this image of little girls in their bubbles, bouncing around as they play. (Probably not correct, but fun.) The Barrayarans used to kill malformed babies, due to their harsh lives and conditions. The haut create their own children as stunted, sexless slaves to try out new ideas before they make the good one, the baby that's got all the right bits. I'm not seeing great deal of moral superiority there. That little discussion in the star creche was interesting. They could breed the haut males for more compliance, but they want more aggression for 'renewed expansion'. Expansion - geographically? Moving into new worlds and territories? Or expansion intellectually and psychologically? And what do the haut males need aggresssion for; the ghem do all the grunt work of invading things. (Now I have an image of haut males fighting like stags in the mating season.) From howard at brazee.net Tue Jul 5 16:41:38 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 09:41:38 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <81E9AC87-EF13-408F-A655-8AEB020CF7EE@brazee.net> > On Jul 5, 2022, at 8:44 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > The general is wearing one medal only: the Order of Merit, given only > by the Emperor himself. If you have that you don't need anything else I noticed that Miles wore it in Barrayar, and it was recognized. I wonder how many people on Barrayar recognize foreign medals (maybe only in Impsec). I would guess Miles was wearing Barrayarian medals too. From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Tue Jul 5 17:17:27 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 12:17:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 In-Reply-To: <81E9AC87-EF13-408F-A655-8AEB020CF7EE@brazee.net> References: <81E9AC87-EF13-408F-A655-8AEB020CF7EE@brazee.net> Message-ID: >> On Jul 5, 2022, at 8:44 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: >> The general is wearing one medal only: the Order of Merit, given only >> by the Emperor himself. If you have that you don't need anything else > On Tue, 5 Jul 2022, Howard Brazee wrote: > I noticed that Miles wore it in Barrayar, and it was recognized. I > wonder how many people on Barrayar recognize foreign medals (maybe only > in Impsec). I would guess Miles was wearing Barrayarian medals too. This was in _Memory_ when Miles went to ask Gregor for an auditor to investigate Simon's treatment (and was appointed a Ninth Auditor himself instead). Maybe other times as well? Certainly it wold be widely recognized among ImpSec analysts. And certainly Miles would have shown it to Gregor and Aral when he returned from that first Cetagandan trip (even if only to ask what do I DO with this?) Cordelia's response? "You earned it, kiddo. Enjoy!" Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From howard at brazee.net Tue Jul 5 17:26:19 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 10:26:19 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: <81E9AC87-EF13-408F-A655-8AEB020CF7EE@brazee.net> Message-ID: > This was in _Memory_ when Miles went to ask Gregor for an auditor to investigate Simon's treatment (and was appointed a Ninth Auditor himself instead). Maybe other times as well? > > Certainly it wold be widely recognized among ImpSec analysts. And certainly Miles would have shown it to Gregor and Aral when he returned from that first Cetagandan trip (even if only to ask what do I DO with this?) Haroche's study of Miles hung up on the magpie collection of military baubles on his tunic. His voice went unexpectedly plaintive. "Vorkosigan, tell me?is that really a Cetagandan Order of Merit?" From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Tue Jul 5 17:56:16 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 12:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is exposing a basic problem in the Cetagandan haut power/decision structure: within the Star Creche, the Dowager Empress' views were law. One gets the impression that no one could even challenge or question her proposal to decentralize the gene banks. In aviation, there have been some horrible crashes directly as the result of mistakes made by the chief pilot, with the other flight crew being too intimidated to question decisions. These days, a Crew Resource Management system is standard, with all crew, including flight attendants, encouraged and expected to speak up in the interests of safety. Emperor Gregor takes a differemnt approach in Barrayar: one sees throughout the books that he prefers to let his Council of Counts make decisions (with him abstaining) in order to have a fuller discussion and more acceptance of the decisions. In later books, Miles also mentions his work on many, many committees debating updates to laws to handle new technologies and circumstances. On Tue, 5 Jul 2022, Gwynne Powell wrote: > They find a quiet nook and she drops her shield. She's a blonde, probably > middle-aged for a haut, but who can be sure? She wants Miles to perch on > the armrest of her chair and go with her, but he asks for identification first. > She has a star creche ring, which is probably good enough. > [...] > Guess what? Bubbles can't fly, but they can do a controlled glide off the > top of an incredibly tall building, and skim across the roads outside the dome > to arrive neatly at an entrance to the Celestial Garden. Miles manages to > avoid heart failure on the trip. His pilot is quite calm, and is actually enjoying > herself: "I haven't done that in years." > > They go through the security check as if it isn't there. She blips a security > code at them, and that's all. Besides, she's the haut Pel, she's the consort > of Eta Ceta. (Note, not the consort of any governor, or anyone else. They > were referred to as planetary consorts, and that's what they are; she's the > consort of the planet.) I do so adore all we see of the haut Pel Navarre, in this and subsequent books, particularly her self-assurance and sense of irony. > Miles offers Ivan's plan; recall the gene banks. If he returns it, you've > stopped his power. If he doesn't return it, you've identified him. And > he can't run until after the funeral; they have that long. > > Once they have the gene banks back again, the key won't help him, > and they could negotiate its return for anonymity. > > There's a bit of disunity in the ranks; if they recall the gene banks > they miss the chance to carry out the plan, for some time to come. > But they don't all agree that the governors can be trusted. And > they're not quite sure what the ba Lura was up to, if it was following > orders or a plan from the Empress, or trying to, or being led by > someone else. There's a slight criticism of Rian for acting alone, too. > > Should they change the genome to make the haut lords more controllable? > But for 'renewed expansion' they need more aggression. "The > ghem-experiment, filtering favorable genetic combinations upward from > the general population, surely suffices for that," ...... so they must > have a way of breeding some ghem with the servitor class? Servitors > moving up as rewards and mingling with the ghem? But they need further > refinement before further expansion. (Expansion where??? Taking over the > Nexus???) > > Ok, they decide to tell the governors that there's a mistake, and > they need the gene banks back again. And bring them back as > genomic material requested by the old Empress before her death. -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From howard at brazee.net Tue Jul 5 18:16:31 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 11:16:31 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jul 5, 2022, at 10:56 AM, alayne--- via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > In aviation, there have been some horrible crashes directly as the result of mistakes made by the chief pilot, with the other flight crew being too intimidated to question decisions. These days, a Crew Resource Management system is standard, with all crew, including flight attendants, encouraged and expected to speak up in the interests of safety. I just read a series of books by Sherwood Smith, the Phoenix Feather series. There?s a minor spoiler at the end that really isn?t important to the plot, but which can fit our discussion: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The emperor?s servant guild has taken on the responsibility to kill bad emperors. From wawenri at msn.com Tue Jul 5 19:03:51 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 18:03:51 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: <01FF8DF6-5ED1-4472-83FE-719976BEA887@brazee.net> References: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> <76c4124f-16e5-2770-2720-50a9383e60ce@matija.com> <01FF8DF6-5ED1-4472-83FE-719976BEA887@brazee.net> Message-ID: AZ and NM. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Howard Brazee Sent: Tuesday, July 5, 2022 7:52:22 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time > On Jul 5, 2022, at 7:45 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > What if towns A and B are in different time zones? I would prefer not changing clocks for DST. Or if they are in different time zones only part of the year? (One has DST and the other doesn?t) -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C93516bd8535241f3157b08da5e8d9e09%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637926259585746588%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IpeRUYk2%2FO9RNa3VFr5f6wXqZk7dwk5gdyfBrGrCuKs%3D&reserved=0 From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Tue Jul 5 19:22:38 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 14:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> <76c4124f-16e5-2770-2720-50a9383e60ce@matija.com> <01FF8DF6-5ED1-4472-83FE-719976BEA887@brazee.net> Message-ID: The Canadian provinces of Alberta (DST) and Saskatchewan (no DST), and specifically the city of Lloydminster, which spans the provincial boundary. (The city itself has decided to be in Alberta's Mountain time.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Saskatchewan Alayne On Tue, 5 Jul 2022, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > AZ and NM. > William A Wenrich > > ________________________________ >> On Jul 5, 2022, at 7:45 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >> What if towns A and B are in different time zones? I would prefer not changing clocks for DST. Howard Brazee said: > Or if they are in different time zones only part of the year? (One has DST and the other doesn?t) -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 19:32:18 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 13:32:18 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> <76c4124f-16e5-2770-2720-50a9383e60ce@matija.com> <01FF8DF6-5ED1-4472-83FE-719976BEA887@brazee.net> Message-ID: The railroads, once they synchronized time zones, issued watches to their personnel. They'd take the cost of the watch out of the employee's pay, but it was something their employees needed. On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 1:22 PM alayne--- via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > The Canadian provinces of Alberta (DST) and Saskatchewan (no DST), and > specifically the city of Lloydminster, which spans the provincial > boundary. (The city itself has decided to be in Alberta's Mountain time.) > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Saskatchewan > > Alayne > > On Tue, 5 Jul 2022, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > AZ and NM. > > William A Wenrich > > > > ________________________________ > >> On Jul 5, 2022, at 7:45 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > >> What if towns A and B are in different time zones? I would prefer not > changing clocks for DST. > > Howard Brazee said: > > Or if they are in different time zones only part of the year? (One has > DST and the other doesn?t) > > -- > Alayne McGregor > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > > As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own > artistic garden -- > to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to > create alternate worlds that offer > both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the > given world that allow us > to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in > _Burning Questions_ > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From domelouann at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 19:32:29 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 13:32:29 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: book recommend, was Re: Cetaganda - Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 12:16 PM Howard Brazee wrote: > > > I just read a series of books by Sherwood Smith, the Phoenix Feather > series. > Is that the Excordium series? First book, "Phoenix in Flight." Because it sounds good. From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Tue Jul 5 19:52:16 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 14:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: book recommend, was Re: Cetaganda - Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: According to Goodreads, the Phoenix Feather series is: Fledglings Redbark The Phoenix Feather III: Firebolt The Phoenix Feather IV: Dragon and Phoenix > On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 12:16 PM Howard Brazee wrote: >> I just read a series of books by Sherwood Smith, the Phoenix Feather >> series. On Tue, 5 Jul 2022, Louann Miller wrote: > Is that the Excordium series? First book, "Phoenix in Flight." Because it > sounds good. -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 20:08:56 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 15:08:56 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 10:45 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > > This party is the absolute opposite of Yenaro's. The people here are the > ones who think > they run the Empire, each of them a century older than Yenaro and his > drone friends. > See also, Miles in Cryoburn wondering what his life would have looked like if his "old oak tree" of a grandfather hadn't fallen. The young Cetas have no room to grow for the next _century_, how will that warp the future of hte empire? > > Vorob'yev is still wondering how they got the invitation; Miles says he > was told to > study the power hierarchy. But is it? There's a lot of different kinds of > power in this empire. > > Unlike the homelife of Miles's home empire, where Lady Alys is barred by her gender from taking any oaths. Therefore she has no power. Clearly. > > Miles gets to ride in the bubble, past Ivan and Vorob'yev - and there's a > strange sense of power in seeing them, hearing their conversation, without > them knowing who it is going past them. Maybe being in a bubble wouldn't > be all bad. (I wonder if they ever hit people intentionally?) > > There's a reason that the cloak of invisibility goes all the way back to the tarn-helm and probably further back than that. > > Guess what? Bubbles can't fly, but they can do a controlled glide .... > Miles manages to avoid heart failure on the trip. His pilot is quite calm, > and is actually enjoying herself: "I haven't done that in years." > > Miles did his wild flight through the Dendarrii Gorge. With his eyes shut. But then, HE was the one piloting. Completely different. > > Each one a different combination of hair, skin and eye colours - they are > works of art. > The baronne's Jewels are also unique art, but in a different direction. Does two books constitute a theme by Lois? > > Sylvia, quite enjoying this re-read From phoenix at mindstalk.net Tue Jul 5 20:41:05 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 15:41:05 -0400 Subject: [LMB] LMB] Cetaganda belated comments In-Reply-To: References: <6EB46806-463D-4F15-81B6-637BD279D0BC@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: I think the Incas would relocate civilians on command. From phoenix at mindstalk.net Tue Jul 5 21:11:08 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 16:11:08 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 05, 2022 at 03:00:24PM +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: > But there's other powers in the empire. The haut men (some > of them - the ones with jobs) control the ghem. They give out Another headcanon I have is that haut-lords play with sociology the way the ladies do with genes. We know of the Emperor and planetary governors, but I imagine haut-lords down to like 'mayor' levels. Of course some ghem or other bureaucrats do most of the day to day grunt work; the lord's role is to cultivate desired outcomes by the right laws and incentives. Dagoola prison would be an elegant smaller example, whether designed by a haut or by a ghem in the same spirit. There's a tradeoff: a governor has more scope and power but only 5 years, and the eye of the emperor on them, while you can probably spend your life playing with a town. I also headcanon that some haut-ladies are stealth partners of a sort in servitor design for the ghem or even commoners. A firm doesn't *advertise* that it has a haut behind it, linking them with icky commerce, but they can't all spend all their lives designing diseases or their own children. From howard at brazee.net Tue Jul 5 21:38:29 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 14:38:29 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <284CD69A-73B8-4A2E-AAF3-47703B1246A1@brazee.net> What kind of genetic advantages are they working for? They appear to want to be able to mate with other humans, so some ?fixes? could be off the table. Certainly they want to be gracefully athletic. Maybe 20/10 vision, but maybe not seeing ultraviolet colors the way birds often do. They might not care whether childbirth is easier, but they would want healing to not scar so much. Higher IQ and memory is obvious. From margdean56 at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 21:43:55 2022 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 14:43:55 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> <76c4124f-16e5-2770-2720-50a9383e60ce@matija.com> <01FF8DF6-5ED1-4472-83FE-719976BEA887@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 12:04 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > AZ and NM. > Heck, when my family used to vacation at Ghost Ranch in my youth (N.B.: I'm in my sixties now), which is near the town of Abiquiu in New Mexico, the Ranch used Standard Time while the rest of the state was on DST, so that adults with kids could put them to bed at a decent hour and go attend classes or social events in the evening. --Margaret Dean (yes, that's part of the reason I live in Santa Fe now) From tzbarasc at lasierra.edu Tue Jul 5 22:47:59 2022 From: tzbarasc at lasierra.edu (Tony Zbaraschuk) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 16:47:59 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: book recommend, was Re: Cetaganda - Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 1:32 PM Louann Miller wrote: > On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 12:16 PM Howard Brazee wrote: > > I just read a series of books by Sherwood Smith, the Phoenix Feather > > series. > > Is that the Excordium series? First book, "Phoenix in Flight." Because it > sounds good. > Different series, though both very good. The five Exordium books are one of the best (and best-written) space operas I've ever read. My shorthand description of them is "Jane Austen writes Doc Smith", and they're available in e-book forms these days. Slight revisions from the original print edition. Highly, highly recommended. The Phoenix Feather series (which I am in process of reading) is more "Asian fantasy martial arts YA", and I don't yet have a good short-hand description for it. Though I enjoyed one protagonist's repeated practical problems with hiding (and revealing) her gender. Tony Z -- Tony Zbaraschuk Bookworm, talker, learner Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" From tzbarasc at lasierra.edu Tue Jul 5 22:51:57 2022 From: tzbarasc at lasierra.edu (Tony Zbaraschuk) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 16:51:57 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> <76c4124f-16e5-2770-2720-50a9383e60ce@matija.com> <01FF8DF6-5ED1-4472-83FE-719976BEA887@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 1:32 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > The railroads, once they synchronized time zones, issued watches to their > personnel. They'd take the cost of the watch out of the employee's pay, > but it was something their employees needed. > It's still a very difficult job, even if programmers are supposed to do part of it -- because the concept, and execution, are both wildly filled with lots and lots of dizzily different details and edge cases. Consider this list of falsehoods that programmers believe about time, until the reality of global timekeeping gets rubbed in their face. https://gist.github.com/timvisee/fcda9bbdff88d45cc9061606b4b923ca And that's only on one planet. ObBujold: imagine how much fun it must be to compare time across different planets, particularly with interestingly different rotation rates. Tony Z -- Tony Zbaraschuk Bookworm, talker, learner Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" From tzbarasc at lasierra.edu Tue Jul 5 23:14:13 2022 From: tzbarasc at lasierra.edu (Tony Zbaraschuk) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 17:14:13 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 5:18 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > The replication of the Star Creche might also inspire a civil war between > the Satraps as each claims that their gene banks are the "real" gene banks > closest to the true purpose of the progenitors. This leads me to the > conclusion that the Dowager Empress was either off her rocker, totally > nuts, or just plain stupid for not realizing that her plan could lead to > civil war. > "Off her rocker", maybe. But she knew perfectly well what she was doing -- she was dividing the Cetagandan Empire into eight sub-empires. "Mitosis" was the word used, cellular division. There might be wars, certainly; there might be more subtle forms of competition; there might be renewed expansion outward in various directions. > Whatever the reason Miles knew this was a bad idea from the start. > Certainly a bad idea for Cetaganda's neighbors. Possibly a bad idea for Cetaganda, depending on how likely you thought the civil war would be afterwards. Is it quite so clear that it was a bad idea _for the haut_? Or for their ultimate goal(s), whatever those might be? And I don't think she did it alone; all the consorts were in on the plan, and presumably there were discussions of the various issues. Gwynne: The Dowager Empress may only have left the Celestial Dome a few > times in her life, or not at all. She possibly didn't have much knowledge > of or > interest in the non-haut part of the empire, and not much contact with Haut > males, either - not in ways that taught her how they operate in the world. > Her > whole focus, for more than a century, was the Star Creche, and she expected > the governors to accept her goals as their own. She was probably brilliant > at > her job, but very limited otherwise. > Perhaps, perhaps not. Tony Zbaraschuk -- Tony Zbaraschuk Bookworm, talker, learner Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" From cjbotteron at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 01:58:48 2022 From: cjbotteron at gmail.com (Carol Botteron) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 20:58:48 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda -- Names and Haircuts Message-ID: How is Rian pronounced? If not like Ryan, then how? Origin of Vorob'yev? Many Vor names are Vor plus something we can recognize or imagine as a surname: Vor + Kosigan, etc. But Ob'yev is outside my experience. Is it derived from Russian? Vorreedi, when Miles met him, was wearing Ghem clothing but no face paint, and "the haircut ... of a Barrayaran officer." I don't recall much description of male haircuts in the books, but possibly Barrayaran officers wear their hair shorter than Barrayaran civilians or Cetagandans. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 02:00:41 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 20:00:41 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well it might have been a calculated move to improve the Cetagandan genes by a civil war. The Haut and some Ghem lords would have a good sized, relatively speaking, genes of the survivors. Utilizing the genes of those who show quick thinking, strength, stamina and luck (I'm thinking of Teela Brown from Larry Niven's "Ring-world"). However wars, even civil wars are costly and wasteful. Especially a space war when enemy forces could drop all sorts of large sized rocks .on their adversaries cities. If I were a Ghem General I would target the enemies Star Creche with such a rock. YouTube has several video simulations of would happen if a asteroid impacts the Earth. One video called! "Chicxulub strikes back! Mass extinction in real Time " it's about 6 hours long, but you can jump ahead. On Tue, Jul 5, 2022, 5:14 PM Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 5:18 AM Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > > The replication of the Star Creche might also inspire a civil war between > > the Satraps as each claims that their gene banks are the "real" gene > banks > > closest to the true purpose of the progenitors. This leads me to the > > conclusion that the Dowager Empress was either off her rocker, totally > > nuts, or just plain stupid for not realizing that her plan could lead to > > civil war. > > > > "Off her rocker", maybe. But she knew perfectly well what she was doing -- > she was dividing the Cetagandan Empire into eight sub-empires. "Mitosis" > was the word used, cellular division. There might be wars, certainly; > there might be more subtle forms of competition; there might be renewed > expansion outward in various directions. > > > > Whatever the reason Miles knew this was a bad idea from the start. > > > > Certainly a bad idea for Cetaganda's neighbors. Possibly a bad idea for > Cetaganda, depending on how likely you thought the civil war would be > afterwards. Is it quite so clear that it was a bad idea _for the haut_? > Or for their ultimate goal(s), whatever those might be? > > And I don't think she did it alone; all the consorts were in on the plan, > and presumably there were discussions of the various issues. > > Gwynne: The Dowager Empress may only have left the Celestial Dome a few > > times in her life, or not at all. She possibly didn't have much knowledge > > of or > > interest in the non-haut part of the empire, and not much contact with > Haut > > males, either - not in ways that taught her how they operate in the > world. > > Her > > whole focus, for more than a century, was the Star Creche, and she > expected > > the governors to accept her goals as their own. She was probably > brilliant > > at > > her job, but very limited otherwise. > > > > Perhaps, perhaps not. > > > Tony Zbaraschuk > -- > Tony Zbaraschuk > Bookworm, talker, learner > Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From huntkc at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 02:06:53 2022 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 21:06:53 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda -- Names and Haircuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 9:00 PM Carol Botteron wrote: > How is Rian pronounced? If not like Ryan, then how? > Ryan-sound is apparently correct. > > Origin of Vorob'yev? Many Vor names are Vor plus something we can recognize > or imagine as a surname: Vor + Kosigan, etc. But Ob'yev is outside my > experience. Is it derived from Russian? > Vorob'yev means sparrow in Russian. > Vorreedi, when Miles met him, was wearing Ghem clothing but no face paint, > and "the haircut ... of a Barrayaran officer." I don't recall much > description of male haircuts in the books, but possibly Barrayaran officers > wear their hair shorter than Barrayaran civilians or Cetagandans. > I always figured Barrayaran military haircut was buzz-cut, slightly longer for officers, but not from any actual knowledge. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 02:15:14 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 20:15:14 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda -- Names and Haircuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The name Rian sounds like Ri:ann with a long E, like see or heat. At least to me. Of course Lois Mcmaster Bujold would be the final arbiter of how the name is pronounced. On Tue, Jul 5, 2022, 8:00 PM Carol Botteron wrote: > How is Rian pronounced? If not like Ryan, then how? > > Origin of Vorob'yev? Many Vor names are Vor plus something we can recognize > or imagine as a surname: Vor + Kosigan, etc. But Ob'yev is outside my > experience. Is it derived from Russian? > > Vorreedi, when Miles met him, was wearing Ghem clothing but no face paint, > and "the haircut ... of a Barrayaran officer." I don't recall much > description of male haircuts in the books, but possibly Barrayaran officers > wear their hair shorter than Barrayaran civilians or Cetagandans. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 6 02:31:32 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 01:31:32 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Sylvia McIvers See also, Miles in Cryoburn wondering what his life would have looked like if his "old oak tree" of a grandfather hadn't fallen. The young Cetas have no room to grow for the next _century_, how will that warp the future of hte empire? Gwynne: Somewhere near the beginning of the saga we're told that Betans live for about 120 years, Cetagandans 150 - 200, but Barrayarans are lucky to get past 80. I realised later that this is actually an advantage for Barrayar (not so much for individuals, of course); it's allowed Barrayar to change fast, to adapt to the Nexus. In Cetaganda, there are still plenty of individuals who were alive during the invasion of Barrayar, but on Barrayar it's a generation or two away. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 6 02:37:25 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 01:37:25 +0000 Subject: [LMB] l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Howard Brazee What kind of genetic advantages are they working for? They appear to want to be able to mate with other humans, so some ?fixes? could be off the table. Certainly they want to be gracefully athletic. Maybe 20/10 vision, but maybe not seeing ultraviolet colors the way birds often do. They might not care whether childbirth is easier, but they would want healing to not scar so much. Higher IQ and memory is obvious. Gwynne: They have outstanding musical talent, and they learn languages quickly. They're incredibly handsome/beautiful. Tall - very tall. Smart. And.... um...... Really, for people who are designing super-beings, they don't seem to have done that much. From margdean56 at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 02:47:19 2022 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 19:47:19 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda -- Names and Haircuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 7:15 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > The name Rian sounds like Ri:ann with a long E, like see or heat. At least > to me. Of course Lois Mcmaster Bujold would be the final arbiter of how the > name is pronounced. > Actually we know how it's pronounced because in his limerick, Miles rhymes it with "scion" and "lion." If it weren't for that, my guess would be the same as yours (REE-an). --Margaret Dean From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 6 02:47:58 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 01:47:58 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Tony Zbaraschuk "Off her rocker", maybe. But she knew perfectly well what she was doing -- she was dividing the Cetagandan Empire into eight sub-empires. "Mitosis" was the word used, cellular division. There might be wars, certainly; there might be more subtle forms of competition; there might be renewed expansion outward in various directions. Certainly a bad idea for Cetaganda's neighbors. Possibly a bad idea for Cetaganda, depending on how likely you thought the civil war would be afterwards. Is it quite so clear that it was a bad idea _for the haut_? Or for their ultimate goal(s), whatever those might be? And I don't think she did it alone; all the consorts were in on the plan, and presumably there were discussions of the various issues. Gwynne: Good points; we tend to think of war as a bad thing, but to her it could just be another selection strategy. The haut tend to be ruthless in their planning (or, at least, they're working with different basic assumptions, and don't factor the wellbeing of the 'servitor classes' into their long-term planning.) From beatrice_otter at zoho.com Wed Jul 6 02:56:14 2022 From: beatrice_otter at zoho.com (Beatrice Otter) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2022 18:56:14 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <181d138dfb5.102a1ad7111280.7954821024899204190@zoho.com> ---- On Tue, 05 Jul 2022 18:47:58 -0700 Gwynne Powell wrote --- Good points; we tend to think of war as a bad thing, but to her it could just be another selection strategy. The haut tend to be ruthless in their planning (or, at least, they're working with different basic assumptions, and don't factor the wellbeing of the 'servitor classes' into their long-term planning.) Beatrice Otter: It's not going to be the *haut* fighting and dying in any wars that result, after all. That's what the ghem are for. Beatrice Otter From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Wed Jul 6 02:58:16 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 21:58:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda -- Names and Haircuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2022, Carol Botteron wrote: > How is Rian pronounced? If not like Ryan, then how? > > Origin of Vorob'yev? Many Vor names are Vor plus something we can recognize > or imagine as a surname: Vor + Kosigan, etc. But Ob'yev is outside my > experience. Is it derived from Russian? I've been wondering that myself. I guess the apostrophe replaces a syllable. Originally Obloyev? This is an interesting site: https://britishsurnames.co.uk/surnames/OB/ but the nearest match it produces (and not very) is "Obiye". Also Vorreedi -- what ethnicity is Reedi? Maybe Rnglish - "Ready"? Or "Reekie"? Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From phoenix at mindstalk.net Wed Jul 6 03:00:32 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 22:00:32 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 05, 2022 at 08:00:41PM -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: > adversaries cities. If I were a Ghem General I would target the enemies > Star Creche with such a rock. I think "target with a rock" is massively overrated when both sides are equally spacefaring. If you can move rocks, so can your enemies. A very fast rock might get through defenses, but would logically take time to set up, a process which can be disputed by the defenders, so it's hardly an easy win. Plus Cetagandans have force domes. A rock might well bounce off the Celestial Garden. > YouTube has several video simulations of would happen if a asteroid impacts > the Earth. One video called! "Chicxulub strikes back! Mass extinction in > real Time " it's about 6 hours long, but you can jump ahead. You would need extended access and control within an enemy solar system to set up moving a large asteroid. And then defend the asteroid so enemy ships don't just deflect. The Nexus has artificial gravity and warships that go a large fraction of lightspeed. ...hell, you'd probably be better off with a kamikaze warship. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at mindstalk.net Wed Jul 6 03:04:33 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 22:04:33 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 06, 2022 at 01:31:32AM +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: > Gwynne: Somewhere near the beginning of the saga we're told that Betans > live for about 120 years, Cetagandans 150 - 200, but Barrayarans are lucky to Betans expect to live to at least 120; I think a much later book indicated 150 if not 200 as an upper bound. The Dowager Empress died around 150, one assumes younger haut can expect at least a bit more. The quaddies *also* can live to 150, presumably a side effect of their space adaptations. I would expect the Betans to be more genetically diverse. Possibly there's a Genetic Health Board or something vetting kids so they don't get too screwed, but probably some parents push experimental longevity genes more than others. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at mindstalk.net Wed Jul 6 03:08:57 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 22:08:57 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: <284CD69A-73B8-4A2E-AAF3-47703B1246A1@brazee.net> References: <284CD69A-73B8-4A2E-AAF3-47703B1246A1@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 05, 2022 at 02:38:29PM -0600, Howard Brazee wrote: > What kind of genetic advantages are they working for? They appear to want to be able to mate with other humans, so some ?fixes? could be off the table. They have extra chromosomes for their changes, so I'm not sure they *can* breed with baseline humans without tech help. (Physically mate, yes.) Fast-penta doesn't work on haut-ladies and doesn't work well on haut-lords. > They might not care whether childbirth is easier, but they would want healing to not scar so much. If my headcanon is right, it was haut-ladies popping out babies until the uterine replicator came along, *and* doing the design work, so probably they did care about easier childbirth... now, it's a less urgent issue. There seems to be a personality aspect, like haut should agree on what it means to be haut, and Kety was considered defective by the consorts for being too independent. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 03:15:19 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 21:15:19 -0500 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? Message-ID: I've thought about things I'd change if I could re-engineer human beings, and I have a few suggestions: Make humans able to synthesize their own Vitamin C, the way almost all other animals can. Getting rid, once and for all, of the curse of scurvy. Get rid of the hymen, or make it go away by itself at about age twelve or thirteen. Make everybody's teeth impervious to rotting. Make everybody completely ambidextrous. Any other ideas? From cjbotteron at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 03:39:14 2022 From: cjbotteron at gmail.com (Carol Botteron) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 22:39:14 -0400 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? Message-ID: Eric Oppen: I've thought about things I'd change if I could re-engineer human beings, and I have a few suggestions: Make humans able to synthesize their own Vitamin C, the way almost all other animals can. Getting rid, once and for all, of the curse of scurvy. Get rid of the hymen, or make it go away by itself at about age twelve or thirteen. Make everybody's teeth impervious to rotting. Make everybody completely ambidextrous. Any other ideas? Carol B: Good ideas. Human joints could use a lot of improvement. Human knees are dismal enough to disprove the idea of intelligent design all by themselves. Eyes that see clearly at any distance (at all ages) and do not develop glaucoma, cataracts, etc. Brains that do not develop dementia. Many improvements would not be apparent to others, but would be significant improvements to the individuals. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 03:52:31 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 21:52:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: <181d138dfb5.102a1ad7111280.7954821024899204190@zoho.com> References: <181d138dfb5.102a1ad7111280.7954821024899204190@zoho.com> Message-ID: The problem with wars in a high tech environment like the Vor universe is that some of the weapons could, potentially be planet busters and the enemy Star Creche could be a Likely target. It could be that the warring factions might come up with rules of engagement but, rules are made to be broken. On Tue, Jul 5, 2022, 8:56 PM Beatrice Otter via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > ---- On Tue, 05 Jul 2022 18:47:58 -0700 Gwynne Powell gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote --- > > Good points; we tend to think of war as a bad thing, but to her > it could just be another selection strategy. The haut tend to be ruthless > in > their planning (or, at least, they're working with different basic > assumptions, > and don't factor the wellbeing of the 'servitor classes' into their > long-term > planning.) > > > Beatrice Otter: > It's not going to be the *haut* fighting and dying in any wars that > result, after all. That's what the ghem are for. > > Beatrice Otter > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 05:43:52 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 23:43:52 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> <76c4124f-16e5-2770-2720-50a9383e60ce@matija.com> <01FF8DF6-5ED1-4472-83FE-719976BEA887@brazee.net> Message-ID: I remember in one of the books Lois Mcmaster Bujold mentioned the length of Barrayar's day. But I can't remember which book or the length of the day. On Tue, Jul 5, 2022, 4:52 PM Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 1:32 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > > > The railroads, once they synchronized time zones, issued watches to their > > personnel. They'd take the cost of the watch out of the employee's pay, > > but it was something their employees needed. > > > > It's still a very difficult job, even if programmers are supposed to do > part of it -- because the concept, and execution, are both wildly filled > with lots and lots of dizzily different details and edge cases. > > Consider this list of falsehoods that programmers believe about time, until > the reality of global timekeeping gets rubbed in their face. > > https://gist.github.com/timvisee/fcda9bbdff88d45cc9061606b4b923ca > > And that's only on one planet. ObBujold: imagine how much fun it must be > to compare time across different planets, particularly with interestingly > different rotation rates. > > > Tony Z > > > -- > Tony Zbaraschuk > Bookworm, talker, learner > Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 05:57:22 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 23:57:22 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: True, with a kamikaze warship. Possibly with a couple of kilograms of antimatter. Question one is, how fast can the warship accelerate and, question two, is how efficient the ship's drives are. The closer a ship get to C the bigger the bang. And the harder it is to intercept. On the other hand it might be possible to design and build a super high speed stealth missile with several kilograms of antimatter. On Tue, Jul 5, 2022, 9:00 PM Damien Sullivan wrote: > On Tue, Jul 05, 2022 at 08:00:41PM -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > adversaries cities. If I were a Ghem General I would target the enemies > > Star Creche with such a rock. > > I think "target with a rock" is massively overrated when both sides are > equally spacefaring. If you can move rocks, so can your enemies. A > very fast rock might get through defenses, but would logically take time > to set up, a process which can be disputed by the defenders, so it's > hardly an easy win. > > Plus Cetagandans have force domes. A rock might well bounce off the > Celestial Garden. > > > YouTube has several video simulations of would happen if a asteroid > impacts > > the Earth. One video called! "Chicxulub strikes back! Mass extinction in > > real Time " it's about 6 hours long, but you can jump ahead. > > You would need extended access and control within an enemy solar system > to set up moving a large asteroid. And then defend the asteroid so > enemy ships don't just deflect. The Nexus has artificial gravity and > warships that go a large fraction of lightspeed. > > ...hell, you'd probably be better off with a kamikaze warship. > > -xx- Damien X-) > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 06:05:13 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 00:05:13 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> <76c4124f-16e5-2770-2720-50a9383e60ce@matija.com> <01FF8DF6-5ED1-4472-83FE-719976BEA887@brazee.net> Message-ID: I think it's 27 hours, but I could be mistaken. On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 11:44 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > I remember in one of the books Lois Mcmaster Bujold mentioned the length > of Barrayar's day. But I can't remember which book or the length of the > day. > > On Tue, Jul 5, 2022, 4:52 PM Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 1:32 PM Eric Oppen > wrote: > > > > > The railroads, once they synchronized time zones, issued watches to > their > > > personnel. They'd take the cost of the watch out of the employee's > pay, > > > but it was something their employees needed. > > > > > > > It's still a very difficult job, even if programmers are supposed to do > > part of it -- because the concept, and execution, are both wildly filled > > with lots and lots of dizzily different details and edge cases. > > > > Consider this list of falsehoods that programmers believe about time, > until > > the reality of global timekeeping gets rubbed in their face. > > > > https://gist.github.com/timvisee/fcda9bbdff88d45cc9061606b4b923ca > > > > And that's only on one planet. ObBujold: imagine how much fun it must be > > to compare time across different planets, particularly with interestingly > > different rotation rates. > > > > > > Tony Z > > > > > > -- > > Tony Zbaraschuk > > Bookworm, talker, learner > > Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 06:08:29 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 00:08:29 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it was "Gentleman Joel and Red Queen," that mentioned Cordelia's potential life span. On Tue, Jul 5, 2022, 9:04 PM Damien Sullivan wrote: > On Wed, Jul 06, 2022 at 01:31:32AM +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Gwynne: Somewhere near the beginning of the saga we're told that Betans > > live for about 120 years, Cetagandans 150 - 200, but Barrayarans are > lucky to > > Betans expect to live to at least 120; I think a much later book > indicated 150 if not 200 as an upper bound. The Dowager Empress died > around 150, one assumes younger haut can expect at least a bit more. > The quaddies *also* can live to 150, presumably a side effect of their > space adaptations. > > I would expect the Betans to be more genetically diverse. Possibly > there's a Genetic Health Board or something vetting kids so they don't > get too screwed, but probably some parents push experimental longevity > genes more than others. > > -xx- Damien X-) > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From baur at chello.at Wed Jul 6 06:46:58 2022 From: baur at chello.at (baur baur) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 07:46:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda -- Names and Haircuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47296927.462909.1657086418796@webmail.mymagenta.at> The I pronounced as in india and the a as in alpha, pronounced as to separate letters servus markus > Carol Botteron hat am 06.07.2022 02:58 geschrieben: > > > How is Rian pronounced? If not like Ryan, then how? > > Origin of Vorob'yev? Many Vor names are Vor plus something we can recognize > or imagine as a surname: Vor + Kosigan, etc. But Ob'yev is outside my > experience. Is it derived from Russian? > > Vorreedi, when Miles met him, was wearing Ghem clothing but no face paint, > and "the haircut ... of a Barrayaran officer." I don't recall much > description of male haircuts in the books, but possibly Barrayaran officers > wear their hair shorter than Barrayaran civilians or Cetagandans. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From baur at chello.at Wed Jul 6 06:56:12 2022 From: baur at chello.at (baur baur) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 07:56:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1305189201.463008.1657086972764@webmail.mymagenta.at> this might seen as an attempt by the empress to make the star creche massively redundant (in the safety sense) - right now its a single point of failure waiting to happen a single dinosaur killer coming through the defenses (or somebody smuggling in a pocket nuke for example) would cripple the empire servus markus > Raymond Collins hat am 06.07.2022 03:00 geschrieben: > > > Well it might have been a calculated move to improve the Cetagandan genes > by a civil war. The Haut and some Ghem lords would have a good sized, > relatively speaking, genes of the survivors. Utilizing the genes of those > who show quick thinking, strength, stamina and luck (I'm thinking of Teela > Brown from Larry Niven's "Ring-world"). > However wars, even civil wars are costly and wasteful. Especially a space > war when enemy forces could drop all sorts of large sized rocks .on their > adversaries cities. If I were a Ghem General I would target the enemies > Star Creche with such a rock. > YouTube has several video simulations of would happen if a asteroid impacts > the Earth. One video called! "Chicxulub strikes back! Mass extinction in > real Time " it's about 6 hours long, but you can jump ahead. > > On Tue, Jul 5, 2022, 5:14 PM Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 5:18 AM Gwynne Powell > > wrote: > > > > > The replication of the Star Creche might also inspire a civil war between > > > the Satraps as each claims that their gene banks are the "real" gene > > banks > > > closest to the true purpose of the progenitors. This leads me to the > > > conclusion that the Dowager Empress was either off her rocker, totally > > > nuts, or just plain stupid for not realizing that her plan could lead to > > > civil war. > > > > > > > "Off her rocker", maybe. But she knew perfectly well what she was doing -- > > she was dividing the Cetagandan Empire into eight sub-empires. "Mitosis" > > was the word used, cellular division. There might be wars, certainly; > > there might be more subtle forms of competition; there might be renewed > > expansion outward in various directions. > > > > > > > Whatever the reason Miles knew this was a bad idea from the start. > > > > > > > Certainly a bad idea for Cetaganda's neighbors. Possibly a bad idea for > > Cetaganda, depending on how likely you thought the civil war would be > > afterwards. Is it quite so clear that it was a bad idea _for the haut_? > > Or for their ultimate goal(s), whatever those might be? > > > > And I don't think she did it alone; all the consorts were in on the plan, > > and presumably there were discussions of the various issues. > > > > Gwynne: The Dowager Empress may only have left the Celestial Dome a few > > > times in her life, or not at all. She possibly didn't have much knowledge > > > of or > > > interest in the non-haut part of the empire, and not much contact with > > Haut > > > males, either - not in ways that taught her how they operate in the > > world. > > > Her > > > whole focus, for more than a century, was the Star Creche, and she > > expected > > > the governors to accept her goals as their own. She was probably > > brilliant > > > at > > > her job, but very limited otherwise. > > > > > > > Perhaps, perhaps not. > > > > > > Tony Zbaraschuk > > -- > > Tony Zbaraschuk > > Bookworm, talker, learner > > Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From baur at chello.at Wed Jul 6 06:58:51 2022 From: baur at chello.at (baur baur) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 07:58:51 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1010545809.463015.1657087131583@webmail.mymagenta.at> well - the way miles falls for rian the moment the bubble pops could be used to argue for pheromone control servus markus > Gwynne Powell hat am 06.07.2022 03:37 geschrieben: > > > From: Howard Brazee > > What kind of genetic advantages are they working for? They appear to want to be able to mate with other humans, so some ?fixes? could be off the table. > Certainly they want to be gracefully athletic. Maybe 20/10 vision, but maybe not seeing ultraviolet colors the way birds often do. > They might not care whether childbirth is easier, but they would want healing to not scar so much. > Higher IQ and memory is obvious. > > Gwynne: They have outstanding musical talent, and they learn languages quickly. > They're incredibly handsome/beautiful. Tall - very tall. Smart. And.... um...... > Really, for people who are designing super-beings, they don't seem to have done > that much. > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From lmb at matija.com Wed Jul 6 07:35:24 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 07:35:24 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5aa45546-ce0f-c6d5-1e37-19b71e55c0ff@matija.com> On 06/07/2022 03:00, Damien Sullivan wrote: > On Tue, Jul 05, 2022 at 08:00:41PM -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: > >> adversaries cities. If I were a Ghem General I would target the enemies >> Star Creche with such a rock. > I think "target with a rock" is massively overrated when both sides are > equally spacefaring. If you can move rocks, so can your enemies. A > very fast rock might get through defenses, but would logically take time > to set up, a process which can be disputed by the defenders, so it's > hardly an easy win. I agree with you that the interplanetary war with rock throwing probably has many more wrinkles than we've thought of. Some more data: I watched Phil Plait discuss asteroids hitting earth as a natural disaster rather than as a weapon. I probably forgot a lot of the points he made, but a few have stuck: a) The closer the rock, the more energy you need to change it's trajectory enough to matter. So what an attacker could do with a relatively small engine far out in the solar system, might have to be undone with an improbable number of big engines if you get them to the rock when it is close. b) You can't rely on just blowing up a rock with a nuke - you would just convert a bullet into a shotgun blast. Unless you do it early enough that pieces of the rock will just completely miss your planet, you haven't changed the total amount of energy the rock will deliver to your planet. Good point about the attacker having to defend the rock, but they would also have to defend a bomber if they sent a bomber instead of the rock. > > Plus Cetagandans have force domes. A rock might well bounce off the > Celestial Garden. Obviously force domes have some limitations, otherwise they would just put their battlecruisers into force domes. I don't think the Cetagandan force domes work as well as, for instance, the stasis bubbles Vernor Vinge describes in The Peace War and Marooned in Realtime. Those are sturdy enough that you can explode a nuke just outside of them, when you need a bit of propulsion. So we can assume the force dome would either pop when hit with a massive enough rock falling fast enough, or the contents of the dome might not survive the exchange of energies involved. Or even failing all that, a space rock might devastate the surroundings of the celestial dome enough that winning might not be worth it. What good is an intact celestial garden, if it's floating on a sea of Lava? > >> YouTube has several video simulations of would happen if a asteroid impacts >> the Earth. One video called! "Chicxulub strikes back! Mass extinction in >> real Time " it's about 6 hours long, but you can jump ahead. > You would need extended access and control within an enemy solar system > to set up moving a large asteroid. And then defend the asteroid so > enemy ships don't just deflect. The Nexus has artificial gravity and > warships that go a large fraction of lightspeed. > > ...hell, you'd probably be better off with a kamikaze warship. > > -xx- Damien X-) From lmb at matija.com Wed Jul 6 07:37:34 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 07:37:34 +0100 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3c676aa8-0c61-4eeb-03d5-4bf0df3d6085@matija.com> On 06/07/2022 03:39, Carol Botteron wrote: > Eric Oppen: > I've thought about things I'd change if I could re-engineer human > beings, and I have a few suggestions: > Make humans able to synthesize their own Vitamin C, the way almost all > other animals can. Getting rid, once and for all, of the curse of scurvy. > Get rid of the hymen, or make it go away by itself at about age twelve > or thirteen. > Make everybody's teeth impervious to rotting. > Make everybody completely ambidextrous. OOOh! I like those! > Any other ideas? More conscious control over the immune system, to cut down on allergies and autoimmune diseases. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 07:42:20 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 01:42:20 -0500 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Definitely clean up all genetic predisposition to inherited illnesses and organ failure, A higher tolerance to sunlight that would protect people from skin cancer and cataracts. Improve liver function against toxins, and finally, improve the immune system against diseases . Of course longevity, that goes without saying. More exotic genegeneering, allow the eyes to see further into infrared and improve hearing. Create denser muscles for extra strength. Oh and knees. Human knees are a crappy design. God must have been playing hooky when they thought knees 101. Oh, and denser bones, and something about the vertebrate, that's almost as bad as the knees. Okay I've finished rambling. On Tue, Jul 5, 2022, 9:15 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > I've thought about things I'd change if I could re-engineer human beings, > and I have a few suggestions: > > Make humans able to synthesize their own Vitamin C, the way almost all > other animals can. Getting rid, once and for all, of the curse of scurvy. > > Get rid of the hymen, or make it go away by itself at about age twelve or > thirteen. > > Make everybody's teeth impervious to rotting. > > Make everybody completely ambidextrous. > > Any other ideas? > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From baur at chello.at Wed Jul 6 09:20:59 2022 From: baur at chello.at (baur baur) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 10:20:59 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <100245369.464147.1657095660006@webmail.mymagenta.at> at a high fraction of c this becomes a RKV (relativistic kill vehicle) and would not need an antimater warhead .. servus markus > Raymond Collins hat am 06.07.2022 06:57 geschrieben: > > > True, with a kamikaze warship. Possibly with a couple of kilograms of > antimatter. Question one is, how fast can the warship accelerate and, > question two, is how efficient the ship's drives are. The closer a ship get > to C the bigger the bang. And the harder it is to intercept. On the other > hand it might be possible to design and build a super high speed stealth > missile with several kilograms of antimatter. > > On Tue, Jul 5, 2022, 9:00 PM Damien Sullivan wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 05, 2022 at 08:00:41PM -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > > > adversaries cities. If I were a Ghem General I would target the enemies > > > Star Creche with such a rock. > > > > I think "target with a rock" is massively overrated when both sides are > > equally spacefaring. If you can move rocks, so can your enemies. A > > very fast rock might get through defenses, but would logically take time > > to set up, a process which can be disputed by the defenders, so it's > > hardly an easy win. > > > > Plus Cetagandans have force domes. A rock might well bounce off the > > Celestial Garden. > > > > > YouTube has several video simulations of would happen if a asteroid > > impacts > > > the Earth. One video called! "Chicxulub strikes back! Mass extinction in > > > real Time " it's about 6 hours long, but you can jump ahead. > > > > You would need extended access and control within an enemy solar system > > to set up moving a large asteroid. And then defend the asteroid so > > enemy ships don't just deflect. The Nexus has artificial gravity and > > warships that go a large fraction of lightspeed. > > > > ...hell, you'd probably be better off with a kamikaze warship. > > > > -xx- Damien X-) > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 6 10:16:06 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 09:16:06 +0000 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Eyesight: Seeing further into the spectrum. And always perfect vision. Maybe also some kind of telescopic function. Hearing: Also hearing beyond the current range. Skin: The ability to change skin tone at will, to cope with different conditions - like a chameleon, only more controlled. Hair: Able to speed up or stop hair growth. Physical: Superb fine motor control, able to produce great bursts of speed at need, perfect balance, greater endurance, tolerance of a wider temperature range, need less sleep, able to digest and use a wide variety of foods. Also: Learn fast, pick up languages easily, musical ability, empathy, inventiveness, self-control. Some people with more focus than others, some more inventive; society needs a range of abilities. So some inventors, some who consolidate those ideas. Organisational skills. Dance and movement skills. Great memory, 'photographic' memory. Sense of direction. Resistance to disease. Improvements in the whole teeth thing. And improvements in joints. Nice but not possible: Flying. X-ray vision. Telekinesis. Teleporting. From lmb at matija.com Wed Jul 6 10:31:16 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 10:31:16 +0100 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2425b593-c9b9-5251-085f-7aa63364d19d@matija.com> On 06/07/2022 10:16, Gwynne Powell wrote: > Eyesight: Seeing further into the spectrum. And always perfect vision. > Maybe also some kind of telescopic function. > Hearing: Also hearing beyond the current range. > Skin: The ability to change skin tone at will, to cope with different > conditions - like a chameleon, only more controlled. I have wondered several times why the genome could not be tweaked so that the ghem officers could do the facepaint internally instead of bothering with the makeup. From fishman at panix.com Wed Jul 6 11:23:16 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2022 10:23:16 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda -- Names and Haircuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have always pronounced it Reean. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ >From "Carol Botteron" To "lmb-list" Date 7/5/2022 8:58:48 PM Subject [LMB] Cetaganda -- Names and Haircuts >How is Rian pronounced? If not like Ryan, then how? > >Origin of Vorob'yev? Many Vor names are Vor plus something we can recognize >or imagine as a surname: Vor + Kosigan, etc. But Ob'yev is outside my >experience. Is it derived from Russian? > >Vorreedi, when Miles met him, was wearing Ghem clothing but no face paint, >and "the haircut ... of a Barrayaran officer." I don't recall much >description of male haircuts in the books, but possibly Barrayaran officers >wear their hair shorter than Barrayaran civilians or Cetagandans. >-- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From baur at chello.at Wed Jul 6 12:04:11 2022 From: baur at chello.at (baur baur) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 13:04:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <100245369.464147.1657095660006@webmail.mymagenta.at> Message-ID: <1371042738.485965.1657105451278@webmail.mymagenta.at> there are two interesting things about RKV 1. you do not need to send them through a jump point - they can come at your opponent through normal space (if you are patient enough) 2. they are very hard to stop if they arrive at a very high fraction of c (they arrive only a short time behind their own radiation front - giving only short time to get countermeasures up and running and into the correct position) .. even shattering them will turn them only into a relativistic shotgun blast (or a burst of very hard radiation - relativistic heavy ions) these two things together makes them a good fit for a retaliation / revenge weapon (if you conquer / destroy my home world we will avenge us) servus markus > Raymond Collins hat am 06.07.2022 12:14 geschrieben: > > > Yeah, a bit of antimatter would be overkill. However, an antimatter explosion would have a particular signature (no pun intended) that would the enemies of that particular Ghem Lord that he's got antimatter in his arsenal. > Frankly this would be under the category of a terror weapon because his adversary's would realize he had a stockpile of antimatter. > Now, with our current technology producing antimatter is well beyond or capacity, however I believe the technology of the multiple high tech interstellar civilizations of the MLB universe would be quite capable of producing and storing antimatter. > Of course the question comes up is! How dumb and vainglorious do you have to be to stockpile antimatter knowing that your adversaries have the same technology. > Unfortunately, you don't need to be smart to enforce your powers over government. You just need to be charismatic. > > On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 3:21 AM baur baur wrote: > > > > at a high fraction of c this becomes a RKV (relativistic kill vehicle) and would not need an antimater warhead .. > > > > servus > > > > markus > > > > > > > Raymond Collins hat am 06.07.2022 06:57 geschrieben: > > > > > > > > > True, with a kamikaze warship. Possibly with a couple of kilograms of > > > antimatter. Question one is, how fast can the warship accelerate and, > > > question two, is how efficient the ship's drives are. The closer a ship get > > > to C the bigger the bang. And the harder it is to intercept. On the other > > > hand it might be possible to design and build a super high speed stealth > > > missile with several kilograms of antimatter. > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 5, 2022, 9:00 PM Damien Sullivan wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 05, 2022 at 08:00:41PM -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > > > > > > > adversaries cities. If I were a Ghem General I would target the enemies > > > > > Star Creche with such a rock. > > > > > > > > I think "target with a rock" is massively overrated when both sides are > > > > equally spacefaring. If you can move rocks, so can your enemies. A > > > > very fast rock might get through defenses, but would logically take time > > > > to set up, a process which can be disputed by the defenders, so it's > > > > hardly an easy win. > > > > > > > > Plus Cetagandans have force domes. A rock might well bounce off the > > > > Celestial Garden. > > > > > > > > > YouTube has several video simulations of would happen if a asteroid > > > > impacts > > > > > the Earth. One video called! "Chicxulub strikes back! Mass extinction in > > > > > real Time " it's about 6 hours long, but you can jump ahead. > > > > > > > > You would need extended access and control within an enemy solar system > > > > to set up moving a large asteroid. And then defend the asteroid so > > > > enemy ships don't just deflect. The Nexus has artificial gravity and > > > > warships that go a large fraction of lightspeed. > > > > > > > > ...hell, you'd probably be better off with a kamikaze warship. > > > > > > > > -xx- Damien X-) > > > > -- > > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com mailto:rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk mailto:Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at mailto:baur at chello.at > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk mailto:Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > From huntkc at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 12:21:33 2022 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 07:21:33 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda -- Names and Haircuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ >From "Carol Botteron" To "lmb-list" Date 7/5/2022 8:58:48 PM Subject [LMB] Cetaganda -- Names and Haircuts >Origin of Vorob'yev? Many Vor names are Vor plus something we can recognize >or imagine as a surname: Vor + Kosigan, etc. But Ob'yev is outside my >experience. Is it derived from Russian? A more complete answer for this one. See https://www.goodreads.com/questions/1265709-you-ve-said-already-that-vor-is-is-an?utm_medium=email&utm_source=author_blog_post_digest Vorobyev is a Russian name that means sparrow. Lois has/had headcanon to go with. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 6 13:19:30 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 12:19:30 +0000 Subject: [LMB] l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: well - the way miles falls for rian the moment the bubble pops could be used to argue for pheromone control markus Gwynne: But Ivan doesn't fall for any of them. He approaches Vio, but that's basically a reflex action due to her being a breathing female. He's totally immune to the entire Star Creche; in fact he's almost repulsed by them (they're just like his MOTHER!!!) Miles is far more susceptible than Ivan; Miles is always looking for Lady Vorkosigan, and he wants the whole fairy tale, just like his parents. Ivan doesn't have that parental example, and he's quite deliberately not open to anything deep or permanent. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 6 13:28:11 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 12:28:11 +0000 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A few more: No allergies or sensitivities, no hay fever, none of that. Ambidextrous. Protective and caring towards others; good social sense. Excellent co-ordination. Artistic sense - which could show in different ways. No genetic diseases or conditions. Good teamwork instincts; some good leadership skills - a range is needed. From baur at chello.at Wed Jul 6 13:48:19 2022 From: baur at chello.at (baur baur) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 14:48:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2115924047.486606.1657111699917@webmail.mymagenta.at> but the version of pheromone control would be conscious (like for homo drakensis) .. and would be active only if the haut wants it to be .. servus markus > Gwynne Powell hat am 06.07.2022 14:19 geschrieben: > > > well - the way miles falls for rian the moment the bubble pops could be used to argue for pheromone control > markus > > Gwynne: But Ivan doesn't fall for any of them. He approaches Vio, but that's > basically a reflex action due to her being a breathing female. He's totally immune > to the entire Star Creche; in fact he's almost repulsed by them (they're just like > his MOTHER!!!) Miles is far more susceptible than Ivan; Miles is always looking for > Lady Vorkosigan, and he wants the whole fairy tale, just like his parents. Ivan > doesn't have that parental example, and he's quite deliberately not open to > anything deep or permanent. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From wawenri at msn.com Wed Jul 6 13:59:12 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 12:59:12 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda, wormholes, astronomy Message-ID: There has been a lot of speculation on list about how wormholes work. Are they line of sight? Is what you find on the other end in the same galaxy or even the same universe? We know about Beta Colony since it was first settled by ram ship. Therefore, we know it's relation to Earth. IIUC, there's no direct wormhole connection between Beta and Earth. Since Barrayar was one of the early settlements via wormhole, before the collapse, we can probably assume (not usually a good idea) that the original route was a short one. The current one through Komarr, isn't. In the nexus, when people talk about close distances or neighbors they are talking short wormhole routes. Aren't some jumps easier on pilots and passengers than others? William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. From wawenri at msn.com Wed Jul 6 14:15:29 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 13:15:29 +0000 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Most of these are good ideas but there may well be unanticipated difficulties. All mammals have the same number of bones in their necks. People game tried to change that genetically, but they ended up with more ribs. In the stories, they have solved those problems, hence Quaddies. I included it to illustrate that some things are interconnected. My granddaughter, Hazel, is left-handed. From what I've read, genetics is involved only 25% of the time. Btw, since clones are the same genetically as identical twins, Mark must have had something done to his fingerprints and palm prints to make them like Miles. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2022 6:28:11 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? A few more: No allergies or sensitivities, no hay fever, none of that. Ambidextrous. Protective and caring towards others; good social sense. Excellent co-ordination. Artistic sense - which could show in different ways. No genetic diseases or conditions. Good teamwork instincts; some good leadership skills - a range is needed. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C6f2ff64740d44b80a55c08da5f4b0469%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637927073095296648%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2Fm518x1UzDbzAjYwQ6%2BUoDqj3bdwgaIz%2FoJfMpLPif0%3D&reserved=0 From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 14:24:03 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 09:24:03 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> <76c4124f-16e5-2770-2720-50a9383e60ce@matija.com> <01FF8DF6-5ED1-4472-83FE-719976BEA887@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 5:52 PM Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > Consider this list of falsehoods that programmers believe about time, until > the reality of global timekeeping gets rubbed in their face. > > https://gist.github.com/timvisee/fcda9bbdff88d45cc9061606b4b923ca > > from that link: - There is only one calendar system in use at one time. heh heh. The paper calendar on my fridge has two sets of dates for every day. Also lists sunset for every Friday. - One minute on the system clock has exactly the same duration as one minute on any other clock - Ok, but the duration of one minute on the system clock will be pretty close to the duration of one minute on most other clocks. - Fine, but the duration of one minute on the system clock would never be more than an hour. me: system clocks of different lengths of time for a minute? how does that happen? One minute can last longer than an hour? I get that 60 seconds can start before the hour and end after the hour, but a minute cannot last longer than an hour. Now I have a headache. Can someone explain this? also this one: OK, these ones. Why am I still reading this list???? - The day of the month always advances contiguously from N to either N+1 or 1, with no discontinuities. - Time passes at the same speed on top of a mountain and at the bottom of a valley. Sylvia From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 14:25:26 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 09:25:26 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda -- Names and Haircuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 9:00 PM Carol Botteron wrote: > How is Rian pronounced? If not like Ryan, then how? > > I have been using REE-yan. Like Ivan = EE-van. Sylvia From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 6 14:27:12 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 13:27:12 +0000 Subject: [LMB] l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: baur baur but the version of pheromone control would be conscious (like for homo drakensis) .. and would be active only if the haut wants it to be .. markus Gwynne: Good point. Although now I have the mental image of a squirt bottle... From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 14:27:36 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 09:27:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: <1305189201.463008.1657086972764@webmail.mymagenta.at> References: <1305189201.463008.1657086972764@webmail.mymagenta.at> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 1:56 AM baur baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > this might seen as an attempt by the empress to make the star creche > massively redundant (in the safety sense) - right now its a single point of > failure waiting to happen > > a single dinosaur killer coming through the defenses (or somebody > smuggling in a pocket nuke for example) would cripple the empire > > servus > Don't need a meteor, as we found out in Diplomatic Immunity. Ekaterine, flying in on her ship: Call off the war! I found the babies! Has anyone done a fic of this? From kcollett at hamilton.edu Wed Jul 6 14:29:48 2022 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Katherine Collett) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 09:29:48 -0400 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 5, 2022, at 10:15 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > I've thought about things I'd change if I could re-engineer human beings, > and I have a few suggestions: > > > Any other ideas? I was just wondering if there were a way to make human beings genetically more empathetic and compassionate. The Star Creche is evidently interested in making the haut loyal to the haut -- and my understanding it that that's how it starts -- loyalty, empathy to your own family. In some people, that trait expands to larger groups -- your club, your interest groups (your Bujold list?), your nation; and in some, to all humanity, all living creatures. Nature or nurture? Katherine From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 6 14:33:23 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 13:33:23 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda, wormholes, astronomy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: WILLIAM A WENRICH There has been a lot of speculation on list about how wormholes work. Are they line of sight? Is what you find on the other end in the same galaxy or even the same universe?... William A Wenrich Gwynne: I wonder how close some of those worlds are in r/l. Would it be a tactic in war to send a fleet on the long, slow way round, to pop up unexpectedly where a planet wasn't expecting them because they'd kept guards on the wormholes? Or to use that as part of a coordinated attack? And would it be cheaper to send some non-urgent cargo the long way, for some reason - avoiding the law, or refugees fleeing a planet that didn't want them to leave? Put everyone except the crew in stasis, then head off in an unexpected direction, using various comets, asteroid belts or planetary explosions to cover you, while the bad guys are still watching the wormholes and think they've got the escapees trapped. It might take years, even centuries, for the sleepers to arrive at some safe planet, but they'd get there in the end, and be free. From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 14:38:53 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 09:38:53 -0400 Subject: [LMB] l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: <1010545809.463015.1657087131583@webmail.mymagenta.at> References: <1010545809.463015.1657087131583@webmail.mymagenta.at> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 1:58 AM baur baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > well - the way miles falls for rian the moment the bubble pops could be > used to argue for pheromone control > Or it could be that Miles has a thing for tall, cool brunettes. From kcollett at hamilton.edu Wed Jul 6 14:40:11 2022 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Katherine Collett) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 09:40:11 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda -- Names and Haircuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6AD40ED2-18D8-414B-8E69-30F350638260@hamilton.edu> On Jul 5, 2022, at 9:58 PM, alayne--- via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Also Vorreedi -- what ethnicity is Reedi? Maybe Rnglish - "Ready"? Or "Reekie"? I believe Vorreedi is a shout-out to author Patricia Wrede, which I eventually found out is pronounced reedee (not reed, which I had assumed for years). Katherine From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 14:41:08 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 09:41:08 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda -- Names and Haircuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 9:47 PM Margaret Dean wrote: > > > Actually we know how it's pronounced because in his limerick, Miles rhymes > it with "scion" and "lion." > > If it weren't for that, my guess would be the same as yours (REE-an). > > > --Margaret Dean > > Gotta love rhymes. Shakespeare's rhymes let us know how pronunciation has shifted these last few hundred years. From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 14:42:26 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 09:42:26 -0400 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 10:15 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > I've thought about things I'd change if I could re-engineer human beings, > and I have a few suggestions: > > Make humans able to synthesize their own Vitamin C, the way almost all > other animals can. Getting rid, once and for all, of the curse of scurvy. > > Make everybody's teeth impervious to rotting. > > Make everybody completely ambidextrous. > Fix the eye-brain connection: No more dyslexia. *sigh* From lmb at matija.com Wed Jul 6 15:23:13 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 15:23:13 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda, wormholes, astronomy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8ed9eb81-4c40-4faa-9e00-bd5ce03ddcca@matija.com> On 06/07/2022 13:59, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > There has been a lot of speculation on list about how wormholes work. Are they line of sight? Is what you find on the other end in the same galaxy or even the same universe? > We know about Beta Colony since it was first settled by ram ship. Therefore, we know it's relation to Earth. IIUC, there's no direct wormhole connection between Beta and Earth. The map on http://lavkamirov.com/bujold/bujmap_e.htm says you are correct. > Since Barrayar was one of the early settlements via wormhole, before the collapse, we can probably assume (not usually a good idea) that the original route was a short one. The current one through Komarr, isn't. A minimum of 7 jumps, with possibly more between Unlabeled CETA and Dagoola. If there was a more direct route, the time of fire must have a been a really big reconfiguration, and it makes me wonder what other routes disappeared or came into existence. > In the nexus, when people talk about close distances or neighbors they are talking short wormhole routes. > Aren't some jumps easier on pilots and passengers than others? I don't remember that. But we do have textev that fewer jumps is easier on both the passengers and the crew. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 15:42:17 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 09:42:17 -0500 Subject: [LMB] l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <1010545809.463015.1657087131583@webmail.mymagenta.at> Message-ID: We don't know how long the haut project has been going on, and don't know what their ultimate goal is. If we told them "doesn't look like you've done much," they might say it's still very early days, and they've a long, long way to go. On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 8:39 AM Sylvia McIvers wrote: > On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 1:58 AM baur baur via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > well - the way miles falls for rian the moment the bubble pops could be > > used to argue for pheromone control > > > > > Or it could be that Miles has a thing for tall, cool brunettes. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 15:49:48 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 09:49:48 -0500 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Personally, I'd prefer empathy kept at reasonable levels. Inappropriate or excessive empathy is as bad as none at all, or possibly worse. That's the sort of thing that leads people in Yellowstone to go try to pet and make friends with the big fuzzy cows. On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 8:15 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Most of these are good ideas but there may well be unanticipated > difficulties. > All mammals have the same number of bones in their necks. People game > tried to change that genetically, but they ended up with more ribs. In the > stories, they have solved those problems, hence Quaddies. I included it to > illustrate that some things are interconnected. > My granddaughter, Hazel, is left-handed. From what I've read, genetics is > involved only 25% of the time. > Btw, since clones are the same genetically as identical twins, Mark must > have had something done to his fingerprints and palm prints to make them > like Miles. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Gwynne Powell > Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2022 6:28:11 AM > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? > > > > A few more: > > No allergies or sensitivities, no hay fever, none of that. > > Ambidextrous. > > Protective and caring towards others; good social sense. > > Excellent co-ordination. > > Artistic sense - which could show in different ways. > > No genetic diseases or conditions. > > Good teamwork instincts; some good leadership skills - a range is needed. > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C6f2ff64740d44b80a55c08da5f4b0469%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637927073095296648%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2Fm518x1UzDbzAjYwQ6%2BUoDqj3bdwgaIz%2FoJfMpLPif0%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From tzbarasc at lasierra.edu Wed Jul 6 16:00:53 2022 From: tzbarasc at lasierra.edu (Tony Zbaraschuk) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 10:00:53 -0500 Subject: [LMB] l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 8:37 PM Gwynne Powell wrote:They have outstanding musical talent, and they learn languages quickly. > They're incredibly handsome/beautiful. Tall - very tall. Smart. And.... > um...... > Really, for people who are designing super-beings, they don't seem to have > done > that much. > I suspect that a lot of changes are invisible -- e.g., if their lifespan gets to around 200, that's quite a lot of subtle boosts. And "smart without instability" is probably a huge effort design-wise. And "smart" is a huge force multiplier for everything else humans do. Engineering-tradeoff problems are notoriously hard to optimize, because you have to ask "what problems am I willing to deal with to get the good things I want", and that's even before you run into "we have to experiment for 30-50-100 years to see the results of _this_ tweak". I suspect that the haut are cautious, certainly much more cautious than (say) Jacksonians, when it comes to "things we want to make permanently part of our genome." Then again, maybe that's the difference -- Jackson's Hole is quite willing to create whatever tools you want, ignoring that they're making new humans ("'They tried to redesign the _enlisted man_? By _committee_?'"); Ceta's goals are more inward-focused. Tony Z -- Tony Zbaraschuk Bookworm, talker, learner Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 16:19:38 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 10:19:38 -0500 Subject: [LMB] l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Now I'm picturing an embittered, renegade Haut running off to Jackson's Whole to do experiments that the Star Creche has forbidden. "Ha! Those FOOLS! They LAUGHED AT ME! They SNEERED at my wonderful ideas! They kicked me out of Eta Ceta! They said I was MAD! MAD, do you hear? Well, now I've got all the resources I ever wanted, and with these resources, I'll SHOW THEM! I'll SHOW THEM ALL! BWAHAHAHA!" The scary thing is, I can easily envision Jacksonian barons who're ruthless enough, and short-sighted enough, to take such a Haut in. That baron might soon find out that the servant has become the master. "Yeth, Haut Silvio! What does mathter want?" (A Haut renegade who'd really gone over the edge would probably be building his or her own minions.) On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 10:01 AM Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 8:37 PM Gwynne Powell > wrote:They have outstanding musical talent, and they learn languages > quickly. > > > They're incredibly handsome/beautiful. Tall - very tall. Smart. And.... > > um...... > > Really, for people who are designing super-beings, they don't seem to > have > > done > > that much. > > > > I suspect that a lot of changes are invisible -- e.g., if their lifespan > gets to around 200, that's quite a lot of subtle boosts. And "smart > without instability" is probably a huge effort design-wise. And "smart" is > a huge force multiplier for everything else humans do. > > Engineering-tradeoff problems are notoriously hard to optimize, because you > have to ask "what problems am I willing to deal with to get the good things > I want", and that's even before you run into "we have to experiment for > 30-50-100 years to see the results of _this_ tweak". I suspect that the > haut are cautious, certainly much more cautious than (say) Jacksonians, > when it comes to "things we want to make permanently part of our genome." > Then again, maybe that's the difference -- Jackson's Hole is quite willing > to create whatever tools you want, ignoring that they're making new humans > ("'They tried to redesign the _enlisted man_? By _committee_?'"); Ceta's > goals are more inward-focused. > > > Tony Z > > -- > Tony Zbaraschuk > Bookworm, talker, learner > Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From baur at chello.at Wed Jul 6 16:28:31 2022 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 17:28:31 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda, wormholes, astronomy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Am 06.07.2022 um 14:59 schrieb WILLIAM A WENRICH: > There has been a lot of speculation on list about how wormholes work. Are they line of sight? Is what you find on the other end in the same galaxy or even the same universe? > We know about Beta Colony since it was first settled by ram ship. Therefore, we know it's relation to Earth. IIUC, there's no direct wormhole connection between Beta and Earth. > Since Barrayar was one of the early settlements via wormhole, before the collapse, we can probably assume (not usually a good idea) that the original route was a short one. The current one through Komarr, isn't. > In the nexus, when people talk about close distances or neighbors they are talking short wormhole routes. > Aren't some jumps easier on pilots and passengers than others? i always understood "short routes" to mean either direct wormhole connection or sones with only few intermediate wormhole steps to be taken . it is the real space maneuvering from on wormhole to the next that takes up a majority of a journey length servus markus > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > From baur at chello.at Wed Jul 6 16:29:01 2022 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 17:29:01 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Fwd: l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: <34882aaa-b2a1-b53c-6311-7c0dc4e6d546@chello.at> References: <34882aaa-b2a1-b53c-6311-7c0dc4e6d546@chello.at> Message-ID: an invisible, consciously controlled set of squirt bottles containing "love me" or "fear me" pheromones servus markus Am 06.07.2022 um 15:27 schrieb Gwynne Powell: > From: baur baur > > but the version of pheromone control would be conscious (like for homo drakensis) .. and would be active only if the haut wants it to be .. > markus > > Gwynne: Good point. Although now I have the mental image of a squirt bottle... From kawyle at att.net Wed Jul 6 16:31:10 2022 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 15:31:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <310838505.1663474.1657121470412@mail.yahoo.com> A fanfic waiting to happen! Karen A. Wyle On Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 11:20:01 AM EDT, Eric Oppen wrote: Now I'm picturing an embittered, renegade Haut running off to Jackson's Whole to do experiments that the Star Creche has forbidden. "Ha!? Those FOOLS!? They LAUGHED AT ME!? They SNEERED at my wonderful ideas!? They kicked me out of Eta Ceta!? They said I was MAD!? MAD, do you hear?? Well, now I've got all the resources I ever wanted, and with these resources, I'll SHOW THEM!? I'll SHOW THEM ALL!? BWAHAHAHA!" The scary thing is, I can easily envision Jacksonian barons who're ruthless enough, and short-sighted enough, to take such a Haut in.? That baron might soon find out that the servant has become the master.? "Yeth, Haut Silvio!? What does mathter want?"? (A Haut renegade who'd really gone over the edge would probably be building his or her own minions.) From baur at chello.at Wed Jul 6 16:35:18 2022 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 17:35:18 +0200 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> <76c4124f-16e5-2770-2720-50a9383e60ce@matija.com> <01FF8DF6-5ED1-4472-83FE-719976BEA887@brazee.net> Message-ID: <7585fe9e-250b-b8c4-e257-dcfa066faacb@chello.at> Am 05.07.2022 um 23:51 schrieb Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold: > On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 1:32 PM Eric Oppen wrote: snippitites est > Consider this list of falsehoods that programmers believe about time, until > the reality of global timekeeping gets rubbed in their face. > > https://gist.github.com/timvisee/fcda9bbdff88d45cc9061606b4b923ca ROFLOL!!!!! > And that's only on one planet. ObBujold: imagine how much fun it must be > to compare time across different planets, particularly with interestingly > different rotation rates. oh yes ... servus markus > Tony Z > > From tzbarasc at lasierra.edu Wed Jul 6 16:37:05 2022 From: tzbarasc at lasierra.edu (Tony Zbaraschuk) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 10:37:05 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> <76c4124f-16e5-2770-2720-50a9383e60ce@matija.com> <01FF8DF6-5ED1-4472-83FE-719976BEA887@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 8:24 AM Sylvia McIvers wrote: > On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 5:52 PM Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > Consider this list of falsehoods that programmers believe about time, > until > > the reality of global timekeeping gets rubbed in their face. > > > > https://gist.github.com/timvisee/fcda9bbdff88d45cc9061606b4b923ca > > > > - One minute on the system clock has exactly the same duration as one > minute on any other clock > - Ok, but the duration of one minute on the system clock will be pretty > close to the duration of one minute on most other clocks. > - Fine, but the duration of one minute on the system clock would never > be more than an hour. > > me: system clocks of different lengths of time for a minute? how does that > happen? > > One minute can last longer than an hour? I get that 60 seconds can start > before the hour and end after the hour, but a minute cannot last longer > than an hour. > Daylight savings time change. 1:59:59 AM is followed by 3:00:00 AM, so your minute was 1:00:01 long. There are probably other weirdnesses hidden deep in the zone change rules. > Now I have a headache. Can someone explain this? > > also this one: OK, these ones. Why am I still reading this list???? > > - The day of the month always advances contiguously from N to either N+1 > or 1, with no discontinuities. > Not sure about this one, but maybe while you're crossing the International Date Line you go from 11:59:59 on the 2nd to 0:00:00 on the 4th? > - Time passes at the same speed on top of a mountain and at the bottom > of a valley. > Different gravitational levels, time runs at very slightly different rates thanks to Professor Einstein. It's true that you need to be using very good clocks to notice this, and care about micro- or nano-second precision, but this one is experimentally verified. Tony Z -- Tony Zbaraschuk Bookworm, talker, learner Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 6 16:38:47 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 15:38:47 +0000 Subject: [LMB] l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Eric Oppen We don't know how long the haut project has been going on, and don't know what their ultimate goal is. If we told them "doesn't look like you've done much," they might say it's still very early days, and they've a long, long way to go. Gwynne: At most the Cetagandan empire, in one form or another, has existed for under eight centuries. And for them that's not many generations, or at least lifespans, especially when you have to allow some time for the early settling, and the formation of the society, then the haut splitting from the ghem and getting control of the ghem. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 6 16:40:43 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 15:40:43 +0000 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Eric Oppen Personally, I'd prefer empathy kept at reasonable levels. Inappropriate or excessive empathy is as bad as none at all, or possibly worse. That's the sort of thing that leads people in Yellowstone to go try to pet and make friends with the big fuzzy cows. Gwynne: That's not empathy, it's idiocy. Empathy is wincing when you see the loon step toward the big fuzzy cow. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 6 16:44:26 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 15:44:26 +0000 Subject: [LMB] l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Tony Zbaraschuk ... Engineering-tradeoff problems are notoriously hard to optimize, because you have to ask "what problems am I willing to deal with to get the good things I want", and that's even before you run into "we have to experiment for 30-50-100 years to see the results of _this_ tweak". I suspect that the haut are cautious, certainly much more cautious than (say) Jacksonians, when it comes to "things we want to make permanently part of our genome." Then again, maybe that's the difference -- Jackson's Hole is quite willing to create whatever tools you want, ignoring that they're making new humans ("'They tried to redesign the _enlisted man_? By _committee_?'"); Ceta's goals are more inward-focused. Tony Z Gwynne: We don't know how many ba are made, and what happens to the ones who are experiments that failed. From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Wed Jul 6 17:02:11 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 12:02:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: <643b96fb-e04e-6130-a358-0875afb8cc00@matija.com> <76c4124f-16e5-2770-2720-50a9383e60ce@matija.com> <01FF8DF6-5ED1-4472-83FE-719976BEA887@brazee.net> Message-ID: > On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 8:24 AM Sylvia McIvers > wrote: >> me: system clocks of different lengths of time for a minute? how does that >> happen? >> >> One minute can last longer than an hour? I get that 60 seconds can start >> before the hour and end after the hour, but a minute cannot last longer >> than an hour. On Wed, 6 Jul 2022, Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold wrote: > Daylight savings time change. 1:59:59 AM is followed by 3:00:00 AM, so > your minute was 1:00:01 long. There are probably other weirdnesses hidden > deep in the zone change rules. What I read was that this could happen if you had a virtual machine running within another machine and then suspended the virtual machine for an hour or so and then restarted it. This is not an uncommon scenario. Sylvia: >> also this one: OK, these ones. Why am I still reading this list???? >> >> - The day of the month always advances contiguously from N to either N+1 >> or 1, with no discontinuities. Tony: >> Not sure about this one, but maybe while you're crossing the International > Date Line you go from 11:59:59 on the 2nd to 0:00:00 on the 4th? Also when Europe switched from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar? Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Wed Jul 6 17:08:35 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 12:08:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] The Tea Party Message-ID: So after I signed up for the Tea Party, I learned about a People's Transit Forum on Saturday from 1 to 3 p.m. to talk about what's been learned (lots of juicy stuff) about the debacle of Ottawa's only-partially-functioning light rail system, and how to leverage this in the city elections this October. I need to cover the forum for the community newspaper I edit. And I would be returning from the forum by transit. So the likelihood of my getting home while the tea party is running is ... low. Very low. Have a great time, folks. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Wed Jul 6 18:52:17 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2022 18:52:17 +0100 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2022 21:15:19 -0500, Eric Oppen wrote: >I've thought about things I'd change if I could re-engineer human beings, >and I have a few suggestions: > >Make humans able to synthesize their own Vitamin C, the way almost all >other animals can. Getting rid, once and for all, of the curse of scurvy. > >Get rid of the hymen, or make it go away by itself at about age twelve or >thirteen. > >Make everybody's teeth impervious to rotting. Rotting isn't the only issue with teeth. They wear out (less so, since we learned to make better flour etc, but still). Being able to grow new ones would be excellent. > >Make everybody completely ambidextrous. > >Any other ideas? Knees, eyes, throat (we are perhaps the only animal that can choke on its food). -- Be scrupulously truthful, even if the truth is inconvenient, for it is more inconvenient when you try to conceal it. - Bertrand Russell From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Wed Jul 6 18:57:28 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2022 18:57:28 +0100 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jul 2022 09:29:48 -0400, Katherine Collett wrote: >On Jul 5, 2022, at 10:15 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: >> >> I've thought about things I'd change if I could re-engineer human beings, >> and I have a few suggestions: >> >> >> Any other ideas? > >I was just wondering if there were a way to make human beings genetically more empathetic and compassionate. > >The Star Creche is evidently interested in making the haut loyal to the haut -- and my understanding it that that's how it starts -- loyalty, empathy to your own family. In some people, that trait expands to larger groups -- your club, your interest groups (your Bujold list?), your nation; and in some, to all humanity, all living creatures. > >Nature or nurture? We can cope with around 150 direct relationships (Dunbar's Number). Anything beyond that becomes increasingly abstracted from our instincts. -- Tidying the house while the children are growing is like shovelling snow while it's still snowing. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Wed Jul 6 19:03:04 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2022 19:03:04 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6hjbch5vguuakp8kp0ekd0ckuvdcdtdc5o@4ax.com> On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 12:13:15 +0000, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >I'm wondering who came up with the idea of changing clocks by government orders. Don't blame Benjamin Franklin. His statement was probably a joke, and he didn't say anything about changing clocks. H suggested ringing bells and setting off cannon to wake everyone up. >IIRC, standardized time zones didn't come about until railroads made travel arrangements necessary. A standard time in the UK (there's only one time zone, GMT) came with "railway time", to make timetables useful. -- Tidying the house while the children are growing is like shovelling snow while it's still snowing. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Wed Jul 6 19:13:41 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2022 19:13:41 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 18:23:20 -0400, Carol Botteron wrote: >Harvey: >Calling something a limerick does not make it one. A limerick is a five >line poem, often rude, with a rhyming scheme of AABBA. Accept no >substitutes!! > >Carol: >If you prefer to sing your limericks, there are songs with the right meter, >such as this one from Gilbert & Sullivan's "The Sorcerer": >Oh! my name is john wellington wells, >i'm a dealer in magic and spells, >in blessings and curses >and ever-filled purses, >in prophecies, witches, and knells. >[etc.] Aleister Crowley (the soi-disant "Worst Man in the World") did a version possibly inspired by that: My name it is Aleister Crowley I'm a master of magick unholy Of cantrips and pentacles Covens, conventicles Of basil, nepenthe and moly. -- "There is no cause so right that one cannot find a fool following it." - Niven From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Wed Jul 6 19:14:58 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2022 19:14:58 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda belated comment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07kbchpfo59nijg9as886r84gn3f6kte73@4ax.com> On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 12:45:33 -0400, Carol Botteron wrote: >Katherine Collett: >Isn't that basically what the Roman Empire did? Recruiting people for the >legions and sending them to the opposite end of the Empire. Or maybe >that's just in fiction! > >Carol B: >Possibly true. Although my paternal ancestors are from the French side of >Switzerland, their Y-DNA haplogroup is G2a, indicating origin around the >Black and Caspian Seas. One explanation is that Sarmatians (who had a >reputation as excellent archers) spread to eastern Europe, where Romans >"recruited" them. Archers who lived to retire generally settled down where >they happened to be. There's obvious value in deploying auxiliaries in areas where their duties won't conflict with local personal links if the chips are down. -- "There is no cause so right that one cannot find a fool following it." - Niven From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Wed Jul 6 19:24:20 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2022 19:24:20 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Winter Solstice: Southern Edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5nkbchp1paln1bcmrffvfl4c7uhrc80m0h@4ax.com> On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 10:27:47 -0500, Eric Oppen wrote: >To be blunt about it, I've never seen why any (Western) Christian would >have any particular objection to the Anglican Communion. I'm an atheist, >but if I had to start going to church again for some reason, I'd be >perfectly comfortable in my local Episcopal Church, despite having been >raised Lutheran. > >On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 10:06 AM Marc Wilson wrote: > >> On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 18:26:09 -0600, Howard Brazee >> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> >> On Jun 29, 2022, at 6:17 PM, Marc Wilson wrote: >> >> >> >> The UK is different in that we actually have an established church - of >> >> the three remaining clauses of Magna Carta still in force, one is about >> >> the rights and privileges of the English Church - and there are bishops >> >> in the House of Lords. While it's illegal to discriminate on religious >> >> grounds, there's a definite bias towards the CofE. >> >> >> >> Interestingly, we are a much more secular society than the US, where >> >> there is (officially) no state religion. Less than 10% are regular >> >> churchgoers. >> > >> >In the short run, churches can gain power by sharing power with the >> state. Sometimes this is in an adversarial role, and sometimes as a >> duopoly. >> > >> >But when the state goes down, quite often it takes the church down with >> it. >> > >> >The UK still has both king (queen) and bishop, but neither have the power >> they used to have. >> >> I've seen the CofE described as "The Salk vaccine of religions". The Church of England is, by most standards, a rather wishy-washy affair - hence the Salk analogy. It's an attenuated form that prepares you to resist more active strains. If I were forced, on pain of death, to adopt a religion, I might choose to become a Sikh. Those guys walk the walk. -- "There is no cause so right that one cannot find a fool following it." - Niven From phoenix at mindstalk.net Wed Jul 6 19:55:43 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 14:55:43 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: <1371042738.485965.1657105451278@webmail.mymagenta.at> References: <100245369.464147.1657095660006@webmail.mymagenta.at> <1371042738.485965.1657105451278@webmail.mymagenta.at> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 06, 2022 at 01:04:11PM +0200, Bujold list wrote: > there are two interesting things about RKV > > 1. you do not need to send them through a jump point - they can come at your opponent through normal space (if you are patient enough) That takes years, and extremely precise aiming, or far-end correction motors which make the rock much more detectable when activated. Given effects of stellar gravity over years, the 'precise aiming' might not even be possible. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at mindstalk.net Wed Jul 6 19:56:16 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 14:56:16 -0400 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: <2425b593-c9b9-5251-085f-7aa63364d19d@matija.com> References: <2425b593-c9b9-5251-085f-7aa63364d19d@matija.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 06, 2022 at 10:31:16AM +0100, Bujold list wrote: > I have wondered several times why the genome could not be tweaked so that > the ghem officers could do the facepaint internally instead of bothering > with the makeup. I would guess that creating chromatophores *and* the neural connections to control them is highly non-trivial. From baur at chello.at Wed Jul 6 20:14:24 2022 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 21:14:24 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <100245369.464147.1657095660006@webmail.mymagenta.at> <1371042738.485965.1657105451278@webmail.mymagenta.at> Message-ID: <4e22eea4-7670-c782-f79a-69733f0ae65d@chello.at> Am 06.07.2022 um 20:55 schrieb Damien Sullivan: > On Wed, Jul 06, 2022 at 01:04:11PM +0200, Bujold list wrote: >> there are two interesting things about RKV >> >> 1. you do not need to send them through a jump point - they can come at your opponent through normal space (if you are patient enough) > > That takes years, and extremely precise aiming, or far-end correction > motors which make the rock much more detectable when activated. you use the entire ship as an RKV impactor - so there is enough engine power for course corrections .. (plus perhaps a little live boat for escape if you plan to add a crew .. but if you have a crew its probably a suicide ride - final revenge for killed home world) > Given effects of stellar gravity over years, the 'precise aiming' might > not even be possible. ideally you keep accelerating and doing course correction all the way - the ideal engine for this kind of application would be a Bussard ramjet servus markus > > -xx- Damien X-) From kcollett at hamilton.edu Wed Jul 6 20:40:20 2022 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Katherine Collett) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 15:40:20 -0400 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C29A33F-8F48-4CEB-9FCB-DEB2E06C9441@hamilton.edu> On Jul 6, 2022, at 11:40 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > ?From: Eric Oppen > > Personally, I'd prefer empathy kept at reasonable levels. Inappropriate or > excessive empathy is as bad as none at all, or possibly worse. That's the > sort of thing that leads people in Yellowstone to go try to pet and make > friends with the big fuzzy cows. > > Gwynne: That's not empathy, it's idiocy. Empathy is wincing when you > see the loon step toward the big fuzzy cow. Yes, and not even idiocy caused by empathy. If anything, it?s caused by over-sentimentality and the pathetic fallacy. And ignorance. And failure to read signs. Katherine From huntkc at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 21:52:25 2022 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 16:52:25 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda -- Names and Haircuts In-Reply-To: <6AD40ED2-18D8-414B-8E69-30F350638260@hamilton.edu> References: <6AD40ED2-18D8-414B-8E69-30F350638260@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 9:40 AM Katherine Collett wrote: > On Jul 5, 2022, at 9:58 PM, alayne--- via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > Also Vorreedi -- what ethnicity is Reedi? Maybe Rnglish - "Ready"? Or > "Reekie"? > > I believe Vorreedi is a shout-out to author Patricia Wrede, which I > eventually found out is pronounced reedee (not reed, which I had assumed > for years). > That is correct. From saffronrose at me.com Thu Jul 7 00:28:05 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 16:28:05 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda -- Names and Haircuts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0DD8008A-C00C-492B-A690-11B4AA56EC62@me.com> On Jul 6, 2022, at 1:52 PM, Karen Hunt wrote: > > ?On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 9:40 AM Katherine Collett > wrote: > >>> On Jul 5, 2022, at 9:58 PM, alayne--- via Lois-Bujold < >>> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: >>> >>> Also Vorreedi -- what ethnicity is Reedi? Maybe Rnglish - "Ready"? Or >> "Reekie"? >> >> I believe Vorreedi is a shout-out to author Patricia Wrede, which I >> eventually found out is pronounced reedee (not reed, which I had assumed >> for years). > > That is correct. Glad to know that! At WorldCon in Brighton 1987, I said to her, ?A Wrede (one syllable) book always a good read?, and she kindly corrected me. I was waiting for R. A. MacAvoy, because we were to have informal tea in the lobby. We?d arranged it earlier. I was a familiar face and accent*, and, passing a movie billboard, I learned her brother strongly resembles Timothy Dalton in his Bond years. I said, ?You grew up with *that*?? The idea of having to live with such a handsome brother, and how it might affect one?s dating judgement bowled me over. Bertie came out and said that she?d been trying to get together with Patricia and this was the only time during the con that they could meet; could she join us? My response: two writers I admired for one chat? Hell yeah. I had planned to pay for tea, got more than I could have dreamed. I think I mostly listened?not being a writer, author business was a foreign land. *We?d met before, at a signing event at the last location of A Change of Hobbit, where I?d brought a loaf of my bread, a stick of butter, a knife, and a plate. Then later that year, I stopped at her place at Eclectia when they still lived there, on my way to Marin. Had less time than planned due to a mechanical issue. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 01:07:28 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 19:07:28 -0500 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: <8C29A33F-8F48-4CEB-9FCB-DEB2E06C9441@hamilton.edu> References: <8C29A33F-8F48-4CEB-9FCB-DEB2E06C9441@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: Empathy, like any other virtue, becomes toxic when overdosed. See "The Farmer and the Viper. " On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 2:41 PM Katherine Collett wrote: > On Jul 6, 2022, at 11:40 AM, Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > > > ?From: Eric Oppen > > > > Personally, I'd prefer empathy kept at reasonable levels. Inappropriate > or > > excessive empathy is as bad as none at all, or possibly worse. That's > the > > sort of thing that leads people in Yellowstone to go try to pet and make > > friends with the big fuzzy cows. > > > > Gwynne: That's not empathy, it's idiocy. Empathy is wincing when you > > see the loon step toward the big fuzzy cow. > > Yes, and not even idiocy caused by empathy. If anything, it?s caused by > over-sentimentality and the pathetic fallacy. And ignorance. And failure > to read signs. > > Katherine > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From wawenri at msn.com Thu Jul 7 02:14:16 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 01:14:16 +0000 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: <8C29A33F-8F48-4CEB-9FCB-DEB2E06C9441@hamilton.edu> References: <8C29A33F-8F48-4CEB-9FCB-DEB2E06C9441@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: Remember the bit in Pocahontas that said that, if you meet a bear in the woods, put down your gun, walk up, and start playing with her cubs. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Katherine Collett Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2022 1:40:20 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? On Jul 6, 2022, at 11:40 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > ?From: Eric Oppen > > Personally, I'd prefer empathy kept at reasonable levels. Inappropriate or > excessive empathy is as bad as none at all, or possibly worse. That's the > sort of thing that leads people in Yellowstone to go try to pet and make > friends with the big fuzzy cows. > > Gwynne: That's not empathy, it's idiocy. Empathy is wincing when you > see the loon step toward the big fuzzy cow. Yes, and not even idiocy caused by empathy. If anything, it?s caused by over-sentimentality and the pathetic fallacy. And ignorance. And failure to read signs. Katherine -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C7d5dd3e72b4d4c72ec7008da5f878eec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637927333110092961%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2FK1suI9fHGmRYwVjSSuBWuPvffGkUHhV9XtgYBBSlx0%3D&reserved=0 From mathews55 at msn.com Thu Jul 7 02:16:02 2022 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 01:16:02 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not just the Quaddies' space adaptations, but the lack of gravitational strain on their bodies. I have lymphedema, and being in water helps it a lot, as does elevating my legs. Being in microgravity would have the same effect. However, bone loss and loss of muscle mass were a major problem for long-term residents of the International Space Station, so there's that. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Raymond Collins Sent: Tuesday, July 5, 2022 11:08 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 I think it was "Gentleman Joel and Red Queen," that mentioned Cordelia's potential life span. On Tue, Jul 5, 2022, 9:04 PM Damien Sullivan wrote: > On Wed, Jul 06, 2022 at 01:31:32AM +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Gwynne: Somewhere near the beginning of the saga we're told that Betans > > live for about 120 years, Cetagandans 150 - 200, but Barrayarans are > lucky to > > Betans expect to live to at least 120; I think a much later book > indicated 150 if not 200 as an upper bound. The Dowager Empress died > around 150, one assumes younger haut can expect at least a bit more. > The quaddies *also* can live to 150, presumably a side effect of their > space adaptations. > > I would expect the Betans to be more genetically diverse. Possibly > there's a Genetic Health Board or something vetting kids so they don't > get too screwed, but probably some parents push experimental longevity > genes more than others. > > -xx- Damien X-) > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From saffronrose at me.com Thu Jul 7 05:25:53 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 21:25:53 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Winter Solstice: Southern Edition In-Reply-To: <5nkbchp1paln1bcmrffvfl4c7uhrc80m0h@4ax.com> References: <5nkbchp1paln1bcmrffvfl4c7uhrc80m0h@4ax.com> Message-ID: <66EA1A46-29A6-467E-A0ED-7F4939A15073@me.com> On Jul 6, 2022, at 11:24 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > If I were forced, on pain of death, to adopt a religion, I might choose > to become a Sikh. Those guys walk the walk. Yes, they do. Equality pervades the beliefs, practices, and daily behavior. Both sexes are expected to dress modestly. As the Sikh manager of the practice, the husband of my (also Sikh) ophthalmologist started said, there isn?t a carrot or a stick to compel obedience to precepts and principles, just the drive to do right (no Dudley involved, either). I was introduced to the communal meal called langar (sounds like languor) at an Interfaith Conference. My ophthalmologist says that there is an increasing incidence of diabetes within the Sikh community due to too much carbohydrate/rice consumption at langars. Someone fetch me a mango lassi! I can have lassi or I can eat solid food?even before carb counting?but I can?t put away both. Most of the immigrants *I* meet here are Punjabi, and most of them are Sikh, although there is certainly a large Hindu population. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From lbujold at myinfmail.com Thu Jul 7 16:40:14 2022 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 10:40:14 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments Message-ID: <0b77e45e-b9f3-e3be-26f2-ef9667cba478@myinfmail.com> [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments Howard Brazee howard at brazee.net Tue Jul 5 21:38:29 BST 2022 HB:? What kind of genetic advantages are they working for?? They appear to want to be able to mate with other humans, so some ?fixes? could be off the table. Certainly they want to be gracefully athletic.?? Maybe 20/10 vision, but maybe not seeing ultraviolet colors the way birds often do. They might not care whether childbirth is easier, but they would want healing to not scar so much. Higher IQ and memory is obvious. LMB:? Good heavens, these designers are women.? They absolutely would care that pregnancy and childbirth be made easier and safer; it was probably one of the earliest tweaks.? If they are keeping reproductive function at all (for backup...?) all that would have headed the hit list, especially if this project started before URs were fully perfected. Not something that shows on the outside.? It would be great if they could do something useful about control of sleep, too. There are hundreds of possible tweaks that would not show on the outside -- expand your thinking, folks! Over and above Nexus-standard gene-cleaning, which is also worth speculative discussion. Ta, L. From howard at brazee.net Thu Jul 7 16:45:12 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 09:45:12 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: <0b77e45e-b9f3-e3be-26f2-ef9667cba478@myinfmail.com> References: <0b77e45e-b9f3-e3be-26f2-ef9667cba478@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 7, 2022, at 9:40 AM, Lois Bujold wrote: > > > LMB: Good heavens, these designers are women. They absolutely would care that pregnancy and childbirth be made easier and safer; it was probably one of the earliest tweaks. If they are keeping reproductive function at all (for backup...?) all that would have headed the hit list, especially if this project started before URs were fully perfected. I was assuming URs were a bigger priority, especially if they didn?t want bigger hips. From lbujold at myinfmail.com Thu Jul 7 17:28:53 2022 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 11:28:53 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments Message-ID: Howard Brazee howard at brazee.net Thu Jul 7 16:45:12 BST 2022 > On Jul 7, 2022, at 9:40 AM, Lois Bujold wrote: > > > LMB:? Good heavens, these designers are women.? They absolutely would care that pregnancy and childbirth be made easier and safer; it was probably one of the earliest tweaks.? If they are keeping reproductive function at all (for backup...?) all that would have headed the hit list, especially if this project started before URs were fully perfected. HB:? I was assuming URs were a bigger priority, especially if they didn?t want bigger hips. LMB:? Hip size is only one of dozens if not hundreds of female-organ-and-reproductive-function issues that could be usefully addressed.? Granted, it's one the outside eye sees. There's a trade-off between hip size and walking/running efficiency.? Tackling that particular problem from the other end might be to make births somewhat earlier, and/or more head development after -- which is also done in real life/evolution, if you've ever watched how much a baby's head grows in the first few months after birth. But yes, URs are the ultimate work-around for all of that. Which depends, in turn, on maintaining a tech level that can always be counted on to manufacture them.? If ever a group, haut or other, got to trusting that wholly with their futures, they could eliminate reproductive systems and all their problems from the get-go.? And still have all the children they wanted. The ba may be an early concept test for that, among their many other test-bed functions. Meanwhile, the haut do appear to be keeping the traditional backup in place... Ta, L. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 17:57:33 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 11:57:33 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Winter Solstice: Southern Edition In-Reply-To: <66EA1A46-29A6-467E-A0ED-7F4939A15073@me.com> References: <5nkbchp1paln1bcmrffvfl4c7uhrc80m0h@4ax.com> <66EA1A46-29A6-467E-A0ED-7F4939A15073@me.com> Message-ID: Personally, if I HAD TO adopt a religion, and they wouldn't just let me be generic-Protestant, I'd go with either Asatru or Zoroastrianism. I like Asatru because that's my ancestors' religion, and Zoroastrianism because dualism makes a lot more sense explaining the existence of evil. Galloping through the night in a cloak, hat and mask slashing the "Z" sign on things would be fun too. On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 11:26 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Jul 6, 2022, at 11:24 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > > > If I were forced, on pain of death, to adopt a religion, I might choose > > to become a Sikh. Those guys walk the walk. > > Yes, they do. Equality pervades the beliefs, practices, and daily > behavior. Both sexes are expected to dress modestly. > > As the Sikh manager of the practice, the husband of my (also Sikh) > ophthalmologist started said, there isn?t a carrot or a stick to compel > obedience to precepts and principles, just the drive to do right (no Dudley > involved, either). > > I was introduced to the communal meal called langar (sounds like languor) > at an Interfaith Conference. My ophthalmologist says that there is an > increasing incidence of diabetes within the Sikh community due to too much > carbohydrate/rice consumption at langars. > > Someone fetch me a mango lassi! I can have lassi or I can eat solid > food?even before carb counting?but I can?t put away both. > > Most of the immigrants *I* meet here are Punjabi, and most of them are > Sikh, although there is certainly a large Hindu population. > > A. Marina Fournier > saffronrose at me.com > Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e > Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA > Sent from iFionnghuala > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From kcollett at hamilton.edu Thu Jul 7 18:34:38 2022 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Katherine Collett) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 13:34:38 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E0A5B94-5A81-46BA-8971-942CB51A37E4@hamilton.edu> On Jul 7, 2022, at 12:28 PM, Lois Bujold wrote: > > HB: I was assuming URs were a bigger priority, especially if they didn?t want bigger hips. I don't think hip size is as important for ease of delivery as the stereotype imagines. My slight, slim-hipped daughter-in-law gave birth vaginally to my 11+ pound grandson -- not with no problems, but hip size wasn't the issue! > LB: Which depends, in turn, on maintaining a tech level that can always be counted on to manufacture them. If ever a group, haut or other, got to trusting that wholly with their futures, they could eliminate reproductive systems and all their problems from the get-go. I don't see the haut making that leap of faith. The Star Creche obviously uses all the tech at their command, but their work is in genetics; their canvas is the human (well, haut) body and bloodline. If the Empresses want the haut to survive and thrive in the long term, enough to consider the benefits of civil war among the ghem, they must be able to imagine a future without all their current technology as well, I would think. Katherine From howard at brazee.net Thu Jul 7 20:20:06 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 13:20:06 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: <9E0A5B94-5A81-46BA-8971-942CB51A37E4@hamilton.edu> References: <9E0A5B94-5A81-46BA-8971-942CB51A37E4@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: <87869453-CBC4-4904-BDF3-4609F40A1699@brazee.net> > On Jul 7, 2022, at 11:34 AM, Katherine Collett wrote: > >> LB: Which depends, in turn, on maintaining a tech level that can always be counted on to manufacture them. If ever a group, haut or other, got to trusting that wholly with their futures, they could eliminate reproductive systems and all their problems from the get-go. > > I don't see the haut making that leap of faith. The Star Creche obviously uses all the tech at their command, but their work is in genetics; their canvas is the human (well, haut) body and bloodline. If the Empresses want the haut to survive and thrive in the long term, enough to consider the benefits of civil war among the ghem, they must be able to imagine a future without all their current technology as well, I would think. Eventually they will adjust to accepting URs. Maybe after another generation. Conservative choices don?t stay conservative over generations when the alternatives are that practical. But they have long generations. From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 20:41:36 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 15:41:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: <87869453-CBC4-4904-BDF3-4609F40A1699@brazee.net> References: <9E0A5B94-5A81-46BA-8971-942CB51A37E4@hamilton.edu> <87869453-CBC4-4904-BDF3-4609F40A1699@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 3:20 PM Howard Brazee wrote: > > > > On Jul 7, 2022, at 11:34 AM, Katherine Collett > wrote: > > > >> LB: Which depends, in turn, on maintaining a tech level that can always > be counted on to manufacture them. If ever a group, haut or other, got to > trusting that wholly with their futures, they could eliminate reproductive > systems and all their problems from the get-go. > > > > I don't see the haut making that leap of fait... long term, enough to > consider the benefits of civil war among the ghem, they must be able to > imagine a future without all their current technology as well, I would > think. > > Eventually they will adjust to accepting URs. Maybe after another > generation. Conservative choices don?t stay conservative over generations > when the alternatives are that practical. > > The Celestial ladies use tech and love it. They must also envision a situation where the tech is down, and - literally - all wealth is biological. As Cordelia and Aylys found out, the next generation is exclusively yours only when it is inside your skin, not when it is the replicator. From matt.msg at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 20:46:52 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 15:46:52 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <0b77e45e-b9f3-e3be-26f2-ef9667cba478@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: Making childbirth easier and safer would require massive changes, many of which would have quite visible effects. The most straightforward change in terms of ease and safety would be not having the birth canal pass through the pelvic arch, but that's not going to be a quick or invisible fix at all. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 20:50:32 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 15:50:32 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <9E0A5B94-5A81-46BA-8971-942CB51A37E4@hamilton.edu> <87869453-CBC4-4904-BDF3-4609F40A1699@brazee.net> Message-ID: Their entire engineering project is highly tech-dependent - these aren't the Bene Gesserit we're talking about, and even the BG became dependent upon one particular method to develop their human capabilities beyond the normal. Without tech, they can't edit genomes, project the consequences of a particular genetic change, or even access their records. If they were truly worried about reproduction sans UR tech, I assume they would engineer a completely biological replacement that can be duplicated without high tech. A womb tree, or an animal. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 22:15:34 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 17:15:34 -0400 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 10:15 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > Make humans able to synthesize their own Vitamin C, the way almost all > other animals can. Getting rid, once and for all, of the curse of scurvy. > This is probably a good idea. It'd be worth checking carefully to ensure that none of our enzymatic pathways are incompatible with vitamin C production, just in case. > Get rid of the hymen, or make it go away by itself at about age twelve or > thirteen. > This is the only physiological feature unique to humanity. It might be worth thinking about why it developed before we remove it. > Make everybody's teeth impervious to rotting. > It would be more practical to keep growing more sets of teeth. > Make everybody completely ambidextrous. > Why do you think we have dominant hands in the first place? Matt G. From loisaletafundis at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 22:32:33 2022 From: loisaletafundis at gmail.com (Lois Aleta Fundis) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 17:32:33 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Last night while browsing through items available to download on my Kindle, I ran across a TV series called "How States Got Their Shapes." Part of the second episode explains how time zones were invented in the mid-1899s because railroads needed to standardize the confusion of every little town on their routes using their own local solar times. It has maps and illustrations and lots of humor. .. and jibes with what I learned in school and what My Dad the Railroader taught me. The whole series seems to be really interesting, and I haven't got past this second episode yet. On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 7:58 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Louann Miller > > This is great for local astronomical accuracy. But Bad Things Happen to > trains, involving major transfers of kinetic energy, if they can't agree on > *exactly* what time it is in a given spot. > > Gwynne: I have enormous respect for the people who handle airline > timetables. > It's so confusing gaining a day when you go one way, and losing it when > you go > another (when you travel anywhere from Australia you're generally going > long > distances, so you hit a lot of time zones on the way.) > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to loisaletafundis at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois Aleta Fundis loisaletafundis at gmail.com [image: image.png] From saffronrose at me.com Thu Jul 7 22:56:24 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 14:56:24 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21284AB1-D3E9-4CB2-8E8A-1C7076105BC7@me.com> On Jul 7, 2022, at 2:33 PM, Lois Aleta Fundis wrote: > > How States Got Their Shapes Wow, thanks! Added to my Watch list on IMDB. Marina From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Thu Jul 7 23:42:06 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 18:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 10:15 PM Eric Oppen wrote: >> Get rid of the hymen, or make it go away by itself at about age twelve or >> thirteen. On Thu, 7 Jul 2022, Matthew George wrote: > This is the only physiological feature unique to humanity. It might be > worth thinking about why it developed before we remove it. To quote https://www.healthline.com/health/womens-health/imperforate-hymen "There?s no real medical purpose for the hymen, although some think it may have evolved over time to help protect the vagina from infection. ... it?s now widely recognized that even nonsexual activity, like exercising or inserting a tampon, can tear a hymen." I never noticed having one and never missed it. I wouldn't make it a high priority but it does seem redundant. >> Make everybody's teeth impervious to rotting. > > It would be more practical to keep growing more sets of teeth. I'd tend to agree. Though after all the trouble that removing my wisdom teeth caused, I would not want them to reappear. In fact, I would very much like the removal of the inherited tendency to overbites, and irregular teeth caused by the mismatch of teeth and jaw size/shape. No more orthodontics! Also an immunity to gum disease and easy loss of teeth. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 00:01:38 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 19:01:38 -0400 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 6:42 PM alayne--- via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > https://www.healthline.com/health/womens-health/imperforate-hymen > "There?s no real medical purpose for the hymen People used to make that claim about lots of things. How might we evaluate a claim about the utility of a physiological feature? Matt G. From wawenri at msn.com Fri Jul 8 00:20:47 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 23:20:47 +0000 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The appendix was once considered useless. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Matthew George Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2022 5:01:38 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 6:42 PM alayne--- via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.healthline.com%2Fhealth%2Fwomens-health%2Fimperforate-hymen&data=05%7C01%7C%7C8523f3465b7447adf3e908da606c854b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637928316488311418%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=qq6vb7QWUBJSjKRQXjHhGxk3Z1g5r69ooA6LLUhs2kU%3D&reserved=0 > "There?s no real medical purpose for the hymen People used to make that claim about lots of things. How might we evaluate a claim about the utility of a physiological feature? Matt G. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C8523f3465b7447adf3e908da606c854b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637928316488311418%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fWj5pypte9XLTc7cYZhXEMzU8EwknwqH%2BABg3FrNR3w%3D&reserved=0 From saffronrose at me.com Fri Jul 8 00:21:30 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 16:21:30 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Winter Solstice: Southern Edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33089245-7462-4A68-95AF-24E5CE88A853@me.com> On Jul 7, 2022, at 9:58 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > ?Personally, if I HAD TO adopt a religion, and they wouldn't just let me be > generic-Protestant, I'd go with either Asatru or Zoroastrianism. I like > Asatru because that's my ancestors' religion, and Zoroastrianism because > dualism makes a lot more sense explaining the existence of evil. Galloping > through the night in a cloak, hat and mask slashing the "Z" sign on things > would be fun too. > >>> On Jul 6, 2022, at 11:24 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: >>> >>> If I were forced, on pain of death, to adopt a religion, I might choose >>> to become a Sikh. Those guys walk the walk. >snerk< Add an FM for Freddie Mercury. My husband and I are Pagan, but our son?s a Heathen. Not sure he calls himself an Asatruer, though. He gets German from his FMF and his MFM lines. Marina From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 00:21:32 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 18:21:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It isn't? On Thu, Jul 7, 2022, 6:21 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > The appendix was once considered useless. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Matthew George > Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2022 5:01:38 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? > > On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 6:42 PM alayne--- via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.healthline.com%2Fhealth%2Fwomens-health%2Fimperforate-hymen&data=05%7C01%7C%7C8523f3465b7447adf3e908da606c854b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637928316488311418%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=qq6vb7QWUBJSjKRQXjHhGxk3Z1g5r69ooA6LLUhs2kU%3D&reserved=0 > > "There?s no real medical purpose for the hymen > > > People used to make that claim about lots of things. > > How might we evaluate a claim about the utility of a physiological feature? > > Matt G. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C8523f3465b7447adf3e908da606c854b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637928316488311418%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fWj5pypte9XLTc7cYZhXEMzU8EwknwqH%2BABg3FrNR3w%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 00:39:51 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 19:39:51 -0400 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Among other functions, it acts as a reservoir for beneficial bacteria in case of intestinal disruption that wipes out the normal population of symbionts. There are lots of features of our physiologies - such as exercise being necessary to maintain our muscle tone - that are inconveniences in our modern world but are essential to surviving features of our ancestral past, like famines. In a sophisticated modern society, I can easily imagine relatively simple biochemical tweaks that have big payoffs being attempted. Things like maintaining muscle tone without exercise. Or the body's repair functions being constantly active, instead of only turning on in response to things like radiation exposure. Conserving energy and nutrients is no longer essential for moderns, as long as disaster doesn't loom. And if that sort of disaster struck the haut, their grand experiment would already have failed completely. So why not discard adaptations that would only be valuable in conditions the haut don't care about? Developing digestive enzymes that allow us to more completely digest our food might also be useful. At present, we're nonspecialized omnivores, but we're Jack of all trades by being master of none, and we're noted for leaving a lot of proteins and many carbohydrates undigested and unabsorbed. More-efficient digestion might help pay for the energy cost of constant repair metabolism, with a net cost of zero. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 01:20:18 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 20:20:18 -0400 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 8:28 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > No allergies or sensitivities, no hay fever, none of that. > You'd have to eliminate the immune system. It *might* be possible to select for immune systems that react less and thus are less likely to flare up in response to harmless things, but they'd generally be less capable of coping with actual threats. > Ambidextrous. > Why? > Protective and caring towards others; good social sense. > People who are inherently protective and caring tend to be exploited. And they often have poor social sense, because having good sense gives a poor opinion of the intelligence and intentions of others. > Excellent co-ordination. > I'm sure tendencies towards optimal function for all existing physiological systems could be selected for. > Artistic sense - which could show in different ways. > I don't think that's an inherent sense. An ability to internalize a society's aesthetic standards might be selectable, but what objective standard could performance be measured against? > No genetic diseases or conditions. > Not a useful standard. Good teamwork instincts; some good leadership skills - a range is needed. I doubt you can optimize for leadership and cooperation simultaneously. Miles himself is an awful subordinate. Sure, he's a fictional example, but I believe the principle is sound. Matt G. From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Fri Jul 8 02:03:38 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 21:03:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2022, Matthew George wrote: > On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 6:42 PM alayne--- via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > >> https://www.healthline.com/health/womens-health/imperforate-hymen >> "There?s no real medical purpose for the hymen > > > People used to make that claim about lots of things. > > How might we evaluate a claim about the utility of a physiological feature? Looking at what happens to the humans who no longer have that feature seems like a logical way to evaluate. Well, just about every adult woman no longer has an intact hymen and there's no genital disease/disability that attacks all these women, so it doesn't seem likely it's useful past 20-ish. (Which differentiates it substantially from the appendix, also mentioned in this thread.) It has been suggested that a) it's vestigial from the development of the vagina b) it's useful because it prevents infection during gestation or as a child c) it prevents young girls from shoving toys up their vaginas which I suppose could all be true, but are again not very strong reasons for retaining the hymen. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 02:22:34 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 21:22:34 -0400 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 9:03 PM alayne--- via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > Looking at what happens to the humans who no longer have that feature > seems like a logical way to evaluate. > > Well, just about every adult woman no longer has an intact hymen and > there's no genital disease/disability that attacks all these women, so it > doesn't seem likely it's useful past 20-ish. > Invalid argument. Ancient humans would have ruptured their hymens at some point as well. Yet the trait developed. So whatever it's for, its absence from adult women provides no evidence one way or another. It has been suggested that > a) it's vestigial from the development of the vagina > And no other mammals have it? 'Vestigial' is precisely what it CAN'T be. It presumably exists because a stage of programmed cell death does not take place - when humans have webbed fingers, it's for that reason - but that's not why, it's how. Humans developed it in our evolutionary history. Why? > b) it's useful because it prevents infection during gestation or as a > child > c) it prevents young girls from shoving toys up their vaginas > > which I suppose could all be true, but are again not very strong reasons > for retaining the hymen. > If they're the reasons, they were sufficiently powerful reasons for the trait to develop and be passed on to every woman in the world. Matt G. From saffronrose at me.com Fri Jul 8 03:01:48 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 19:01:48 -0700 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B39FBF-5C93-40A5-B6C0-65D2B48F888D@me.com> On Jul 7, 2022, at 6:03 PM, alayne--- via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > It has been suggested that > a) it's vestigial from the development of the vagina Possibly along with the labia minora > b) it's useful because it prevents infection during gestation or as a child I have to think that means while said adult woman had been in utero, because hymens tend to have disappeared, were they present, at first intromission that might possibly result in gestation. Infections as a child? No data from my wetware. > c) it prevents young girls from shoving toys up their vaginas I strongly doubt that. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From howard at brazee.net Fri Jul 8 03:14:31 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 20:14:31 -0600 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93A997C0-4604-4D2E-8BCE-6E96EB10CCEF@brazee.net> > On Jul 7, 2022, at 5:39 PM, Matthew George wrote: > > In a sophisticated modern society, I can easily imagine relatively simple > biochemical tweaks that have big payoffs being attempted. Things like > maintaining muscle tone without exercise. Or the body's repair functions > being constantly active, instead of only turning on in response to things > like radiation exposure. Conserving energy and nutrients is no longer > essential for moderns, as long as disaster doesn't loom. And if that sort > of disaster struck the haut, their grand experiment would already have > failed completely. So why not discard adaptations that would only be > valuable in conditions the haut don't care about? I like that. From phoenix at mindstalk.net Fri Jul 8 04:00:30 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 23:00:30 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 07, 2022 at 11:28:53AM -0500, Lois Bujold wrote: > > LMB:? Good heavens, these designers are women.? They absolutely would care > that pregnancy and childbirth be made easier and safer; it was probably one > of the earliest tweaks.? If they are keeping reproductive function at all Other goals: o non painful menstruation o controllable menstruation (if not directly voluntary, which might be hard, triggered by some chemical or herb) o no menopause, or no bad effects from it o longer viable eggs (this might be hard... and without it or tech, haut women would have to have their children young, no matter their longevity) -xx- Damien X-) From litalex at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 04:29:07 2022 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 23:29:07 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, > On Jul 7, 2022, at 23:00, Damien Sullivan wrote: > o longer viable eggs (this might be hard... and without it or tech, > haut women would have to have their children young, no matter their > longevity) Actually, I hear that even nowadays some women are freezing their eggs when they?re still relatively young and using them later on after they get older (perhaps even with a surrogate?). So theoretically the haut women can do that, especially with the use of uterine replicator? little Alex From phoenix at mindstalk.net Fri Jul 8 05:11:32 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 00:11:32 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 07, 2022 at 11:29:07PM -0400, Alex Kwan wrote: > Hello, > > > On Jul 7, 2022, at 23:00, Damien Sullivan wrote: > > o longer viable eggs (this might be hard... and without it or tech, > > haut women would have to have their children young, no matter their > > longevity) > > Actually, I hear that even nowadays some women are freezing their eggs when they?re still relatively young and using them later on after they get older (perhaps even with a surrogate?). So theoretically the haut women can do that, especially with the use of uterine replicator? Sure. But if they don't want to be dependent on tech... -xx- Damien X-) From baur at chello.at Fri Jul 8 06:52:19 2022 From: baur at chello.at (baur baur) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 07:52:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1749603947.467693.1657259539984@webmail.mymagenta.at> might we use two sets (one with and one without) of physiologically female ba's to test if a hymen is necessary or not? servus markus > Matthew George hat am 08.07.2022 01:01 geschrieben: > > > On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 6:42 PM alayne--- via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > https://www.healthline.com/health/womens-health/imperforate-hymen > > "There?s no real medical purpose for the hymen > > > People used to make that claim about lots of things. > > How might we evaluate a claim about the utility of a physiological feature? > > Matt G. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From lmb at matija.com Fri Jul 8 06:52:20 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 06:52:20 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <775f7bcc-1023-7737-3b11-6ddb663812e2@matija.com> On 07/07/2022 22:32, Lois Aleta Fundis wrote: > Last night while browsing through items available to download on my Kindle, > I ran across a TV series called "How States Got Their Shapes." > > The whole series seems to be really interesting, and I haven't got past > this second episode yet. Thanks for the recommendation, I will look for it! From lmb at matija.com Fri Jul 8 07:13:42 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 07:13:42 +0100 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4592b8b7-613b-e12f-5386-6777a1666038@matija.com> On 08/07/2022 02:22, Matthew George wrote: > And no other mammals have it? 'Vestigial' is precisely what it CAN'T be. Your initial assumption is incorrect: https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/whats-the-purpose-of-the-human-hymen Quote: The hymen is a thin membrane, typically crescent-shaped, that stretches across some or all of the vaginal opening. Besides human females, African elephants have hymens, and, reportedly, so do other mammal classes from rats to whales. In elephants, the hymen breaks only when females give birth. From lmb at matija.com Fri Jul 8 07:27:29 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 07:27:29 +0100 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 07/07/2022 22:15, Matthew George wrote: > This is probably a good idea. It'd be worth checking carefully to ensure > that none of our enzymatic pathways are incompatible with vitamin C > production, just in case. Humans lost the ability to generate vitamin C relatively recently (some primates still can, others can't), and we actually know exactly where the problem is, so for the haut, restoring it would probably be on the level of high school project: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3145266/ (Quote) In all cases so far studied, the inability to synthesize vitamin C is due to mutations in the L-gulono-[gamma]-lactone oxidase (GLO) gene which codes for the enzyme responsible for catalyzing the last step of vitamin C biosynthesis. The bias for mutations in this particular gene is likely due to the fact that losing it only affects vitamin C production. (end quote) Since the mutation is in the last enzymatic step (see above), that takes care of your "It'd be worth checking carefully to ensure that none of our enzymatic pathways are incompatible with vitamin C production". It is not an issue. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Jul 8 13:23:34 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 12:23:34 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Lois Bujold LMB:? ...... Meanwhile, the haut do appear to be keeping the traditional backup in place... Ta, L. Gwynne: It's interesting that they're not only keeping male and female, but making very clear differences between them. And apparently not experimenting with other gender possibilities (no herms, frex). Why are they maintaining gender differences at all? If they went sexless they could eliminate a lot of hormonal problems, and quite a bit of the energy and internal support systems required. Or go herm, and not have to differentiate between two different genders - at least saving a lot of work and time. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Jul 8 13:25:05 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 12:25:05 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Winter Solstice: Southern Edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Eric Oppen Personally, if I HAD TO adopt a religion, and they wouldn't just let me be generic-Protestant, I'd go with either Asatru or Zoroastrianism. I like Asatru because that's my ancestors' religion, and Zoroastrianism because dualism makes a lot more sense explaining the existence of evil. Galloping through the night in a cloak, hat and mask slashing the "Z" sign on things would be fun too. Gwynne: If I had to pick a different religion, I think I'd go for Baha'i. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Jul 8 14:05:47 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 13:05:47 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm just wondering about the haut women who are given out as prizes. Just how many of them are out there? They mostly go to top military officers, and possibly high-level diplomats and politicians (the ones who aren't Haut already.) But how many would that be? It can't be a large percentage of the Empire, and considering the longer lives of the ghem as well as the haut, we're talking about - what, one or two a year at most? So do they run a test when they need a girl to give away? So one poor girl is the failure for that year? Or do they test all Haut women when they reach adulthood? (I think it was Moira whocomplained that the girls from the outer planets were at a disadvantage compared to the ones from Eta Ceta.) And once the tests are done, are some women labelled as failures and then they wait to be issued to a ghem? Or maybe the failures say goodbye to their clan, and siblings, and are sent to a secure location where they go through a training course on ghem, ghem customs, ghem life, the expectations for a haut-lady ghem wife, etc. And just keep on doing the courses until one day you're sitting in the classroom and your name is called over the intercom - then you sigh, say goodbye to all the other girls, and go off to meet your fate. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Jul 8 14:22:46 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 13:22:46 +0000 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm wondering if they need to start a new line of haut women. Their system of eliminating a few now and then wouldn't make much useful difference to Haut numbers. And it puts some very angry women out there; Moira is still furious after a century, and Vio was prepared to take the empire down, and the star creche, to regain her status. We do see Lady D'Har, who is apparently at peace with her status, and still supporting the star creche. But out of that small sample of three, we see two who are NOT happy bunnies. So maybe they should start a new line of women, who are designed to be given away. They are never part of a haut clan - maybe raised in a creche on Eta Ceta. And given an education that is designed to help them in their destined career. They could also be Jeevesed into acceptance, rather than resentment. Effectively, they'd be a new type of ba. At least that would remove the cold fear that all young haut girls must feel, wondering if they'll be cut from the genome. And the miserable, bitter resentment of the ones who go. From kawyle at att.net Fri Jul 8 14:33:02 2022 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 13:33:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <401029669.2709105.1657287182561@mail.yahoo.com> More fanfic fuel! Karen A. Wyle On Friday, July 8, 2022, 09:23:01 AM EDT, Gwynne Powell wrote: I'm wondering if they need to start a new line of haut women. Their system of eliminating a few now and then wouldn't make much useful difference to Haut numbers. And it puts some very angry women out there; Moira is still furious after a century, and Vio was prepared to take the empire down, and the star creche, to regain her status. We do see Lady D'Har, who is apparently at peace with her status, and still supporting the star creche. But out of that small sample of three, we see two who are NOT happy bunnies. So maybe they should start a new line of women, who are designed to be given away. They are never part of a haut clan - maybe raised in a creche on Eta Ceta. And given an education that is designed to help them in their destined career. They could also be Jeevesed into acceptance, rather than resentment. Effectively, they'd be a new type of ba. At least that would remove the cold fear that all young haut girls must feel, wondering if they'll be cut from the genome. And the miserable, bitter resentment of the ones who go. From wawenri at msn.com Fri Jul 8 15:18:47 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 14:18:47 +0000 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How young are the Haut wives when they are given away? From what Mioria said they were already professionals. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 7:22:46 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? I'm wondering if they need to start a new line of haut women. Their system of eliminating a few now and then wouldn't make much useful difference to Haut numbers. And it puts some very angry women out there; Moira is still furious after a century, and Vio was prepared to take the empire down, and the star creche, to regain her status. We do see Lady D'Har, who is apparently at peace with her status, and still supporting the star creche. But out of that small sample of three, we see two who are NOT happy bunnies. So maybe they should start a new line of women, who are designed to be given away. They are never part of a haut clan - maybe raised in a creche on Eta Ceta. And given an education that is designed to help them in their destined career. They could also be Jeevesed into acceptance, rather than resentment. Effectively, they'd be a new type of ba. At least that would remove the cold fear that all young haut girls must feel, wondering if they'll be cut from the genome. And the miserable, bitter resentment of the ones who go. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C69c7cfbe78e44bbd0c7b08da60e4fa18%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637928833849978878%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wZtGq6lEG12tZ4dcgatJ84ulUTjOQjSqi%2B%2BBZACArj0%3D&reserved=0 From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Jul 8 15:30:45 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 14:30:45 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 13 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Miles has to do the thing he hates more than anything: wait. It'll be a full day before they get the gene banks back, or not, and there's nothing he can do and no way to contact Rian. So he waits. And while he waits he ponders the character of Lord X. The man likes to plan, likes to use and then discard his tools, and he isn't a revolutionary, he's a tyrant. He doesn't want to destroy the empire, just take it over. Will he try to kill Rian next? Or dump his consort out of an airlock and run? (Those women were brave, all of them going back to the governors and asking for the gene banks back again. They had to know that they ran a risk.) Poor Lord X thought that framing the Barrayarans would give him a perfect scapegoat. But if he'd chosen any others it would probably have gone the way he expected. Instead he got Miles and Ivan, who haven't followed the script. (Ohhhh sweetie, you should have done more research.) All Lord X can do now is try to fight his way through, tossing away most of his plans and advantages. He was probably still trying to find a way to frame Barrayar - Miles and Ivan are in danger. They'll be easier to frame when they're dead, since they don't react properly. So, since he can't do anything right now, Miles studies the available plans of the satrap governors' ships. (Miles does his homework; all that erratic brilliance is built on a solid base.) Vorreedi arrives - ImpSec are probably monitoring his computer, checking the sites he's accessing. Miles says he's just doing his ImpSec job, collecting information, being a good boy, hoping for ship duty you know. Vorreedi has news about Yenaro; surprisingly he's not dead, but he's now wanted on a robbery complaint (a good way to get him out in the open so that they can dispose of him.) Vorreedi doesn't stay long or ask much, he's baffled-frustrated-confused, the usual state of anyone working with Miles. Later Ivan wanders in. He's not going out - he has issues, now, with possibly leaving little Ivan-trees behind. I love the way Miles and Ivan communicate; as he talks to Ivan about going out, Miles points to the ceiling as code that they could be bugged. Ivan curls his lip as code that he doesn't care. Ivan is bored. Miles chases him out. Next day is another day-long ceremony, with choir singing. They must be good; even Miles is impressed, and he's practically tone deaf. Miles and Ivan are attending with Vorob'yev and Vorreedi riding herd on them; all the men in their house blacks and looking stunning. (Ok, that bit was from me, but just imagine them...) After the first session the diplomats are herded off to be fed, the 'hundreds' of haut-lady bubbles bounce away. (How many haut women live there? I suppose there's a lot of extras for the funeral. but still... what do they all do?) Miles is starting to like the Celestial Garden, but Vorob'yev reminds him that the ghem killed five million Barrayarans. Miles hasn't forgotten (with his family background - are you kidding? Like he'll ever forget the work of Piotr and Aral.) But Miles doesn't think they'll try planetary invasion again (and they're sort of not; they're grooming Marilac rather than just marching in.) Ivan agrees that it's hard to see someone like Yenaro conquering anyone. Miles points out that by the time he got the chance, he'd be too old to care (that's the disadvantage of long life.) But Miles also believes that when the haut have achieved their goal, whatever it is, all bets will be off. Although maybe simple conquest would seem a bit crude to them by then. Or they'll be unstoppable. Miles is waiting impatiently for someone to make contact. Vorreedi is sticking to Miles like glue. Ivan is enjoying the buffet. Vorob'yev is enjoying being with Mia Maz. And then Miles sees Ivan talking with a ba. Not the usual one, this one was younger. With hair. Fashions change. Ivan follows the ba out of the pavilion. Miles zooms around Vorreedi and follows; he zips along leaving Vorreedi in his wake. He follows Ivan into a hedge-maze, and it takes a while to catch up: he sees a float chair, minus bubble. Ivan leans forward, there's a puff of gas and Ivan collapses. The bubble snaps back on and it takes off fast, with Ivan on board. Miles can't catch up, turns around and runs into Vorreedi. Who wants to know what's going on, and where is Ivan? He's going to light a fire under dome security... Miles says that Security can't help, and he needs a ba. A uniformed guard turns up, to herd them back to the right place (I wonder if they had extra warnings about Miles?) Vorreedi asks him to find Lord Vorpatril. Miles figures it'll take them ten minutes to realise that a guest has vanished in the middle of the Celestial Garden, and then things will hit various fans. Miles heads for the nearest ba and asks to communicate with Rian Degtiar, it's an emergency. The ba gives him a wrist-com. The ba moves out of earshot, Vorreedi doesn't. Rian didn't send anyone to collect Ivan. Ah. She knows right away what's happened. She'll send a servitor to get him, and deal with the Ivan problem. Miles tells Vorreedi that Ivan left with a lady - truthful, but not honest. Miles says he'll get Ivan back, discreetly. (Miles is sorry to slander Ivan, but he's also terrified of what might happen. Beneath all the snarking, there is care.) Vorreedi decides to trust Miles; he's apparently made some useful contacts. There will be questions later. A float-car - more utilitarian than the prettily decorated vehicles for the guests - comes to get him. A guard steps in; galactic guests aren't permitted to wander around unacompanied. Miles points out that he has a ba. The ba says that My Lady wants him. And that outranks dome Security. ha. "My superior will speak with yours." The ba almost smirks. So they do still have some normal emotions. The float car moves fast this time, to the star creche. And there's some bubbles approaching; five bubbles herding a sixth. So much for their calm and serenity. They head into an empty loading bay. Rian is waiting. Five of the bubbles switch off, the rebel bubble stays sealed. The bubble refuses to surrender so Rian uses a remote control to turn it off. "Only the Celestial Lady has the override." (Miles should be paying more attention to that, but he's distracted.) Vio d'Chilian isn't happy. She holds a knife to Ivan's throat - Ivan is conscious but paralysed - this must be horrific for him. Pel is behind Vio, she leaves silently. Miles distracts Vio - she believes that Ivan is the boss and Miles working for him. Miles does a lovely tantrum about being overlooked until Pel comes back and shoots Vio. With a stunner. Ivan is only slightly sliced. He gets some synergine to help Ivan recover. Miles finally process it; Rian is currently the acting Empress of Cetaganda, until the ceremony to appoint a new one. That's why she had the over-ride, and nobody blinked when she used it. Vio was using the consort's float chair. There's no sign of the Haut Nadina - the consort of Kety. They knew that Nadina would be missed at the ceremony that morning, so Vio came to impersonate her. Why attack Ivan? Some plot the involve the Barrayarans again. Oh, and Vio must have murdered the Ba Lura, on Kety's orders. Rian says Vio is a traitor the the haut (after they cut her from the genome and gave her away?) and the star creche will deal with her. Miles asks them to wait in case they need more testimonyr So now Kety has the gene bank, the key, and he's been warned. Not such a great plan - but it seemed like a good idea at the time. Is Nadina dead? Rian is certainly upset about that. But Miles doesn't think he'll have killed her yet; he'll wait until the chaos that's meant to come next. So... they have a float chair that Kety expects to see soon. And Rian has the over-ride to reprogram the chair. So... Miles has a plan. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Jul 8 15:38:11 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 14:38:11 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 13 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Miles does his homework; he's memorised all the high-ranking military officers, most of the ghem-clan markings, and so on. He plans for anything. I love the little bit of friction between the ba and the Cetagandan Security officer. They are still human, after all. And I'm sure there's a list somewhere in the Security offices with a large red mark beside Miles's name; watch out for this one, he wanders. It's interesting that the Star Creche, highest of high in their society, is the least decorative and artistic. It's a working installation. And in a crisis the haut ladies jump in, and act. Spare a thought for Vorreedi. The poor man must be on heartburn meds by now. From rgmolpus at flash.net Fri Jul 8 15:58:56 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 14:58:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1938714848.2320583.1657292336996@mail.yahoo.com> It seems the Haut women given to successful Ghem are intended to mix Haut genes into the Ghem matrix. that's why a Haut wife's offspring outrank and earlier children (presumably, the Ghem so honored won't be making any further children with a lower-rank wife). It's a slow (and inefficient) way to spread the Haut gene mix, but it's one they've got. Not all Haut women will want to stay in the Garden; escaping all those annoying sisters must be a relief - from low girl on the lists to top women in society can be attractive (Trophy husband, anyone?). On Friday, July 8, 2022 at 08:06:07 AM CDT, Gwynne Powell wrote: I'm just wondering about the haut women who are given out as prizes. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 17:59:28 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 11:59:28 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Winter Solstice: Southern Edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wouldn't want a pacifist religion, myself. I do not consider pacifism "morally superior" to non-pacifism. I do subscribe to Smith's "Zero Aggression Principle," but once I've been aggressed against, as far as I'm concerned, I am free to retaliate as I see fit. On Fri, Jul 8, 2022 at 7:25 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Eric Oppen > > Personally, if I HAD TO adopt a religion, and they wouldn't just let me be > generic-Protestant, I'd go with either Asatru or Zoroastrianism. I like > Asatru because that's my ancestors' religion, and Zoroastrianism because > dualism makes a lot more sense explaining the existence of evil. Galloping > through the night in a cloak, hat and mask slashing the "Z" sign on things > would be fun too. > > Gwynne: If I had to pick a different religion, I think I'd go for Baha'i. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Fri Jul 8 18:18:16 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 13:18:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: <1938714848.2320583.1657292336996@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1938714848.2320583.1657292336996@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2022, Richard Molpus wrote: > It seems the Haut women given to successful Ghem are intended to mix Haut genes into the Ghem matrix. that's why a Haut wife's offspring outrank and earlier children (presumably, the Ghem so honored won't be making any further children with a lower-rank wife). > It's a slow (and inefficient) way to spread the Haut gene mix, but it's one they've got. > Not all Haut women will want to stay in the Garden; escaping all those annoying sisters must be a relief - from low girl on the lists to top women in society can be attractive (Trophy husband, anyone?). Agreed. If a haut woman a) doesn't enjoy being at the bottom of a hierarchy and would rather run her own household, or b) isn't outstanding at what's valued within the Celestial Garden or doesn't particularly enjoy it, or c) likes children and would like to raise her own, I could see that marrying out could be a perfectly good alternative. The haut just need to make it so, so it's not seen as a demotion. OTOH, the situation of essentially displacing an existing wife is extremely fraught and hardly the best way to start. One would need exceedingly good diplomatic skills. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From howard at brazee.net Fri Jul 8 18:27:25 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 11:27:25 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: <1938714848.2320583.1657292336996@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6ECBFB08-F6FF-4EBA-948A-E12C1A6C6B93@brazee.net> It seems to me that spreading the Haut genes would be easier with men than with women. From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Fri Jul 8 18:48:09 2022 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 10:48:09 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 13 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2EEF60AB-4279-4FA7-B27A-6BDC3772B7AF@comcast.net> On Jul 8, 2022, at 7:30 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > > (SNIP!) > So now Kety has the gene bank, the key, and he's been warned. > Not such a great plan - but it seemed like a good idea at the time. > > Is Nadina dead? Rian is certainly upset about that. But Miles > doesn't think he'll have killed her yet; he'll wait until the chaos > that's meant to come next. > > So... they have a float chair that Kety expects to see soon. And > Rian has the over-ride to reprogram the chair. So... Miles has a plan. > It is now time for ?Miles Naismith Vorkosigan, Action Hero!? - Sound Trumpets! (a discordant Blatt from 3 inept trumpeters ensues). "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com From margdean56 at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 19:15:25 2022 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 12:15:25 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: <6ECBFB08-F6FF-4EBA-948A-E12C1A6C6B93@brazee.net> References: <1938714848.2320583.1657292336996@mail.yahoo.com> <6ECBFB08-F6FF-4EBA-948A-E12C1A6C6B93@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 8, 2022 at 11:27 AM Howard Brazee wrote: > It seems to me that spreading the Haut genes would be easier with men than > with women. > It's possible that the Star Creche doesn't want to make it that easy. They seem to be all about control. --Margaret Dean From baur at chello.at Fri Jul 8 19:32:02 2022 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 20:32:02 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 13 In-Reply-To: <2EEF60AB-4279-4FA7-B27A-6BDC3772B7AF@comcast.net> References: <2EEF60AB-4279-4FA7-B27A-6BDC3772B7AF@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7c066abe-dc1c-4627-87a8-4599c7d0bd43@chello.at> Am 08.07.2022 um 19:48 schrieb Robert Woodward: > On Jul 8, 2022, at 7:30 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: >> >> >> > (SNIP!) > >> So now Kety has the gene bank, the key, and he's been warned. >> Not such a great plan - but it seemed like a good idea at the time. >> >> Is Nadina dead? Rian is certainly upset about that. But Miles >> doesn't think he'll have killed her yet; he'll wait until the chaos >> that's meant to come next. >> >> So... they have a float chair that Kety expects to see soon. And >> Rian has the over-ride to reprogram the chair. So... Miles has a plan. >> > > It is now time for ?Miles Naismith Vorkosigan, Action Hero!? - Sound Trumpets! (a discordant Blatt from 3 inept trumpeters ensues). https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/girlgenius/images/e/e2/GentlemanAdventurer.png/revision/latest?cb=20120328050256 8) servus markus > > > "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." > Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. > ?----------------------------------------------------- > Robert Woodwardrobertaw at drizzle.com > From rgmolpus at flash.net Fri Jul 8 20:04:58 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 19:04:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 13 In-Reply-To: <2EEF60AB-4279-4FA7-B27A-6BDC3772B7AF@comcast.net> References: <2EEF60AB-4279-4FA7-B27A-6BDC3772B7AF@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1502298320.26586.1657307098771@mail.yahoo.com> Ivan on the Kazoo? On Friday, July 8, 2022 at 12:49:26 PM CDT, Robert Woodward wrote: On Jul 8, 2022, at 7:30 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > > (SNIP!) It is now time for ?Miles Naismith Vorkosigan, Action Hero!? - Sound Trumpets! (a discordant Blatt from 3 inept trumpeters ensues). "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From c_muir68 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 8 16:28:14 2022 From: c_muir68 at hotmail.com (C.Muir) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2022 16:28:14 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: <1938714848.2320583.1657292336996@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think we are missing a point here. Moira said she was awarded to the General because the haut Zaia needed a fully trained genetecist. In other words, the whole award of a haut wife is a red herring, disguising the actual work of the "awarded" women. Unfortunately they also have to take the hit of producing their offspring using them genes - ooh, how demeaning! On 8 Jul 2022 15:58, Richard Molpus wrote: It seems the Haut women given to successful Ghem are intended to mix Haut genes into the Ghem matrix. that's why a Haut wife's offspring outrank and earlier children (presumably, the Ghem so honored won't be making any further children with a lower-rank wife). It's a slow (and inefficient) way to spread the Haut gene mix, but it's one they've got. Not all Haut women will want to stay in the Garden; escaping all those annoying sisters must be a relief - from low girl on the lists to top women in society can be attractive (Trophy husband, anyone?). On Friday, July 8, 2022 at 08:06:07 AM CDT, Gwynne Powell wrote: I'm just wondering about the haut women who are given out as prizes. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to c_muir68 at hotmail.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From lbujold at myinfmail.com Sat Jul 9 00:00:26 2022 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 18:00:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women Message-ID: <49126675-1cab-c97c-b11f-6f14489e5aad@myinfmail.com> [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women Margaret Dean margdean56 at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 19:15:25 BST 2022 On Fri, Jul 8, 2022 at 11:27 AM Howard Brazee wrote: > It seems to me that spreading the Haut genes would be easier with men than > with women. > MD:? It's possible that the Star Creche doesn't want to make it that easy. They seem to be all about control. LMB:? Howard has inadvertently put his finger on the hidden armature of Cetaganda; it is an oocytic empire, not a spermatic one. Instead of guys galloping out to spread their sperm as widely as possible, women gate genetic material inward -- very, very choosily. Spermatic empires are of course the sort we're historically used to, and the assumption follows the name.? But that's not what's going on, because science fictional speculation operates on more than one level. Also, the Star Creche designing isn't _done_ yet.? And they don't release beta versions... ("Oocvytic empire" is a phrase worth meditating upon, I feel. And did.) Ta, L. From rgmolpus at flash.net Sat Jul 9 00:09:41 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 23:09:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: <49126675-1cab-c97c-b11f-6f14489e5aad@myinfmail.com> References: <49126675-1cab-c97c-b11f-6f14489e5aad@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: <1716906507.35781.1657321781226@mail.yahoo.com> That's what Ba are for - testing possible genetic changes; under the watchful eye of the egg donors. after a few generations of Ba with a planned genetic sequence, then a Ghem or Haut will be produced for a real field trial. Cetaganda is really a matriarchy; with bells and trumpets playing. On Friday, July 8, 2022 at 06:00:42 PM CDT, Lois Bujold wrote: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women Margaret Dean margdean56 at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 19:15:25 BST 2022 On Fri, Jul 8, 2022 at 11:27 AM Howard Brazee wrote: > It seems to me that spreading the Haut genes would be easier with men than > with women. > MD:? It's possible that the Star Creche doesn't want to make it that easy. They seem to be all about control. LMB:? Howard has inadvertently put his finger on the hidden armature of Cetaganda; it is an oocytic empire, not a spermatic one. Instead of guys galloping out to spread their sperm as widely as possible, women gate genetic material inward -- very, very choosily. Spermatic empires are of course the sort we're historically used to, and the assumption follows the name.? But that's not what's going on, because science fictional speculation operates on more than one level. Also, the Star Creche designing isn't _done_ yet.? And they don't release beta versions... ("Oocvytic empire" is a phrase worth meditating upon, I feel. And did.) Ta, L. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From howard at brazee.net Sat Jul 9 00:14:35 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 17:14:35 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: <1716906507.35781.1657321781226@mail.yahoo.com> References: <49126675-1cab-c97c-b11f-6f14489e5aad@myinfmail.com> <1716906507.35781.1657321781226@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 8, 2022, at 5:09 PM, Richard Molpus wrote: > > Cetaganda is really a matriarchy; with bells and trumpets playing. Very definitely. From phoenix at mindstalk.net Sat Jul 9 01:13:02 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 20:13:02 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: <49126675-1cab-c97c-b11f-6f14489e5aad@myinfmail.com> References: <49126675-1cab-c97c-b11f-6f14489e5aad@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 08, 2022 at 06:00:26PM -0500, Lois Bujold wrote: > LMB:? Howard has inadvertently put his finger on the hidden armature of > Cetaganda; it is an oocytic empire, not a spermatic one. > > Instead of guys galloping out to spread their sperm as widely as possible, > women gate genetic material inward -- very, very choosily. Though it seems like you could have both: haut-ladies gating what gets into the haut, haut-lords 'uplifting' the ghem... In fact one wonders how much the latter happens, and if it doesn't, what prevents it. Is there something about haut that prevents them from being attracted to non-haut? An essential pheromone? Then again IIRC DI told us that haut have an extra pair of chromsomes (and ba one more again), so maybe they're simply not naturally interfertile with non-haut, whether bed-play happens or not. And of course ghem-ladies likely had birth control all along anyway. -xx- Damien X-) From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Jul 9 04:02:55 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 03:02:55 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Richard Molpus It seems the Haut women given to successful Ghem are intended to mix Haut genes into the Ghem matrix. that's why a Haut wife's offspring outrank and earlier children (presumably, the Ghem so honored won't be making any further children with a lower-rank wife). It's a slow (and inefficient) way to spread the Haut gene mix, but it's one they've got. Not all Haut women will want to stay in the Garden; escaping all those annoying sisters must be a relief - from low girl on the lists to top women in society can be attractive (Trophy husband, anyone?). Gwynne: I found it! This, from Moira in CVA: Grandmama?s fine lips thinned. ?You understand, when I was?detached, from the haut, I was already a fully-trained geneticist. I simply missed the cut, and not by very much?but it was always harder for us girls from the outer planets to compete with the haut women from Eta Ceta itself. They always had access to the very latest developments, you know...." From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 07:37:05 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 01:37:05 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is silly, but when I saw the title of this thread, I had a vision of opening my door in the morning to find a Haut Lady curled up in a basket on my front stoop, with a note pinned to her robe saying "Please take me in!" On Fri, Jul 8, 2022 at 10:03 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Richard Molpus > > > It seems the Haut women given to successful Ghem are intended to mix Haut > genes into the Ghem matrix. that's why a Haut wife's offspring outrank and > earlier children (presumably, the Ghem so honored won't be making any > further children with a lower-rank wife). > It's a slow (and inefficient) way to spread the Haut gene mix, but it's > one they've got. > Not all Haut women will want to stay in the Garden; escaping all those > annoying sisters must be a relief - from low girl on the lists to top women > in society can be attractive (Trophy husband, anyone?). > > Gwynne: I found it! This, from Moira in CVA: Grandmama?s fine lips > thinned. ?You understand, when I was?detached, from the haut, I was already > a fully-trained geneticist. I simply missed the cut, and not by very > much?but it was always harder for us girls from the outer planets to > compete with the haut women from Eta Ceta itself. They always had access to > the very latest developments, you know...." > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From baur at chello.at Sat Jul 9 07:55:01 2022 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 08:55:01 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Fwd: Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <787ae21f-c143-6fab-466a-5671a6b4d364@chello.at> no .. there would be a bubble popping up and down on your door step - with a little, tasteful holographically projected sign servus markus Am 09.07.2022 um 08:37 schrieb Eric Oppen: > This is silly, but when I saw the title of this thread, I had a vision of > opening my door in the morning to find a Haut Lady curled up in a basket on > my front stoop, with a note pinned to her robe saying "Please take me in!" > > On Fri, Jul 8, 2022 at 10:03 PM Gwynne Powell > wrote: > >> From: Richard Molpus >> >> >> It seems the Haut women given to successful Ghem are intended to mix Haut >> genes into the Ghem matrix. that's why a Haut wife's offspring outrank and >> earlier children (presumably, the Ghem so honored won't be making any >> further children with a lower-rank wife). >> It's a slow (and inefficient) way to spread the Haut gene mix, but it's >> one they've got. >> Not all Haut women will want to stay in the Garden; escaping all those >> annoying sisters must be a relief - from low girl on the lists to top women >> in society can be attractive (Trophy husband, anyone?). >> >> Gwynne: I found it! This, from Moira in CVA: Grandmama?s fine lips >> thinned. ?You understand, when I was?detached, from the haut, I was already >> a fully-trained geneticist. I simply missed the cut, and not by very >> much?but it was always harder for us girls from the outer planets to >> compete with the haut women from Eta Ceta itself. They always had access to >> the very latest developments, you know...." >> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 07:59:38 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 01:59:38 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Fwd: Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: <787ae21f-c143-6fab-466a-5671a6b4d364@chello.at> References: <787ae21f-c143-6fab-466a-5671a6b4d364@chello.at> Message-ID: I wonder what Haut Ladies eat? I'm sure that any such person who saw the chaos and squalor in which I live (books EVERYWHERE!) would have a giant conniption. On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 1:55 AM Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > no .. there would be a bubble popping up and down on your door step - > with a little, tasteful holographically projected sign > > servus > > markus > > Am 09.07.2022 um 08:37 schrieb Eric Oppen: > > This is silly, but when I saw the title of this thread, I had a vision of > > opening my door in the morning to find a Haut Lady curled up in a basket > on > > my front stoop, with a note pinned to her robe saying "Please take me > in!" > > > > On Fri, Jul 8, 2022 at 10:03 PM Gwynne Powell > > wrote: > > > >> From: Richard Molpus > >> > >> > >> It seems the Haut women given to successful Ghem are intended to mix > Haut > >> genes into the Ghem matrix. that's why a Haut wife's offspring outrank > and > >> earlier children (presumably, the Ghem so honored won't be making any > >> further children with a lower-rank wife). > >> It's a slow (and inefficient) way to spread the Haut gene mix, but it's > >> one they've got. > >> Not all Haut women will want to stay in the Garden; escaping all those > >> annoying sisters must be a relief - from low girl on the lists to top > women > >> in society can be attractive (Trophy husband, anyone?). > >> > >> Gwynne: I found it! This, from Moira in CVA: Grandmama?s fine lips > >> thinned. ?You understand, when I was?detached, from the haut, I was > already > >> a fully-trained geneticist. I simply missed the cut, and not by very > >> much?but it was always harder for us girls from the outer planets to > >> compete with the haut women from Eta Ceta itself. They always had > access to > >> the very latest developments, you know...." > >> > >> -- > >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > >> > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From baur at chello.at Sat Jul 9 08:00:56 2022 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 09:00:56 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: <49126675-1cab-c97c-b11f-6f14489e5aad@myinfmail.com> <1716906507.35781.1657321781226@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7e50f4fe-73c3-1e5a-d5f2-09fb8325d0b4@chello.at> > On Jul 8, 2022, at 5:09 PM, Richard Molpus wrote: > > Cetaganda is really a matriarchy; with bells and trumpets playing. yes and i wonder how many loud cries of "how could we have overlooked that" (*) will emanate from the Cetagandan dept. at Cockroach Central after Miles' and Ivan's reports (and don't think Ivan would not be carefully debriefed and could add a lot of valuable insights on ghem and haut female society) (*) and they DID overlook it or Miles and Ivan would have been much better briefed servus markus From magick_isle at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 09:26:49 2022 From: magick_isle at yahoo.com (WackyRomanticPyrate) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 08:26:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] OT Athos / Taura Fanfic Search+TeaPartyLinkPlz+Thnku Beatrice! References: <1000316976.4020563.1657355209403.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1000316976.4020563.1657355209403@mail.yahoo.com> 3 things in this email:1). Athos/Taura fanfic2). Tea Party Link (& time) Plz!3). Thnku Beatrice!4) a qvestion...~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1). I'm so sorry Karen, I read these so long ago that I remember neither title nor site... ?I read most at archive of our own, but 3 or 4 years ago bumped into another vorkosigan fanfic site on google & think Athos story was there.?...But I found the Vorkosigan Tea Party by typing 'Vorkosigan Zoom' on google; --so maybe now that we have this thread author will find us on google, or some new member will join that way & provide the info? >>I'd love links to these fanfic stories.Karen A. Wyle ?>>WackyRomanticPyrate?wrote: ?[snip]?I do enjoy other Vorkosigan stories too though:?Like happy vignettes for Taura.Enjoyed several chapters of series about gal who got accepted into Barrayar military school. And some Athos vignettes interesting too;?especially the person w/the extra X chromosome (?) that found their way to Barrayar, almost as a sort of sanctuary or coming out.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 2). ?If someone would email me zoom link & confirmed time for tea party, would be great. ?Didn't receive it. ?Just emailed Elizabeth to let her know.?But since so late, ...& I'm going to need an alarm to make it;?may be essential to know now:??Was in a minor accident & meds may keep me from being waked by alarm,?but I hope to make it.??I'm USA Pacific time.?Thank you so much again Elizabeth for hosting!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 3). ?Thank you so much Beatrice, never knew podfic meant audio; nothing like having the right search term!?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 4). Should I have made these all separate threads, or is this the right way to do it??~Diana (410))288-7611 From htgriffin at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 13:18:29 2022 From: htgriffin at yahoo.com (H. Torrance Griffin) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 12:18:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1796447658.2108813.1657369109211@mail.yahoo.com> Likely because what Barrayar considered the domains the people in charge demonstrated their right to rule with (military conquest and overt expansionism included) were something the true rulers of the Cetas considered 'Something to keep the boys amused".? It is a matter of priority and prestige. On Saturday, July 9, 2022, 07:00:06 AM EDT, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk wrote: From: Markus Baur > On Jul 8, 2022, at 5:09 PM, Richard Molpus wrote: > > Cetaganda is really a matriarchy; with bells and trumpets playing. yes and i wonder how many loud cries of "how could we have overlooked that" (*) will emanate from the Cetagandan dept. at Cockroach Central after Miles' and Ivan's reports (and don't think Ivan would not be carefully debriefed and could add a lot of valuable insights on ghem and haut female society) (*) and they DID overlook it or Miles and Ivan would have been much better briefed servus markus From howard at brazee.net Sat Jul 9 13:41:54 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 06:41:54 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: <7e50f4fe-73c3-1e5a-d5f2-09fb8325d0b4@chello.at> References: <49126675-1cab-c97c-b11f-6f14489e5aad@myinfmail.com> <1716906507.35781.1657321781226@mail.yahoo.com> <7e50f4fe-73c3-1e5a-d5f2-09fb8325d0b4@chello.at> Message-ID: <6CEFD15C-9A23-4853-AAC2-957B1DA1002B@brazee.net> It would be interesting to follow other family members responses to having a Haut lady taking over the family. From alzurite at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 14:01:21 2022 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 09:01:21 -0400 Subject: [LMB] WackyRomanticPyrate's comments Message-ID: Diane said: > ). If someone would email me zoom link & confirmed time for tea party, would be great. > Didn't receive it. Just emailed Elizabeth to let her know. But since so late, . I sent it to you again. Hoping for the best! > ..& I'm going to need an alarm to make it; may be essential to know now: Was in a minor > accident & meds may keep me from being waked by alarm, but I hope to make it. Hoping for the best! Sorry to hear about your mishap. Hope you are healing well > I'm USA Pacific time. Thank you so much again Elizabeth for > hosting!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My pleasure! Since I'm currently heavily into "Our Flag Means Death" fandom, I like your Pyrate name. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From lmb at matija.com Sat Jul 9 14:12:03 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 14:12:03 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: <6CEFD15C-9A23-4853-AAC2-957B1DA1002B@brazee.net> References: <49126675-1cab-c97c-b11f-6f14489e5aad@myinfmail.com> <1716906507.35781.1657321781226@mail.yahoo.com> <7e50f4fe-73c3-1e5a-d5f2-09fb8325d0b4@chello.at> <6CEFD15C-9A23-4853-AAC2-957B1DA1002B@brazee.net> Message-ID: On 09/07/2022 13:41, Howard Brazee wrote: > It would be interesting to follow other family members responses to having a Haut lady taking over the family. Now that you mention it, in a matriarchal society a women coming in and saying "I'm first wife now", might elicit the same reaction as in a patriarchal society where someone said "I was sent by the emperor to be your new Daddy". From becca7108 at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 14:33:32 2022 From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 09:33:32 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Message-ID: I'm going to have to miss this one, alas. There's a zoom business meeting today at 3 that I really should join. I'm so sorry - I'll miss you all. -- "...there is no effort without error and shortcoming" - Theodore Roosevelt From cjbotteron at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 14:54:09 2022 From: cjbotteron at gmail.com (Carol Botteron) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 09:54:09 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women Message-ID: Richard Molpus: It seems the Haut women given to successful Ghem are intended to mix Haut genes into the Ghem matrix. that's why a Haut wife's offspring outrank and earlier children (presumably, the Ghem so honored won't be making any further children with a lower-rank wife). Carol B: Looking at this from the other side: The Ghem wife and children of a Ghem officer would like the officer to be moderately successful. But not _too_ successful. If he were assigned a Haut wife, they would lose their status. I wonder how much career sabotage goes on within Ghem families? From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Jul 9 15:18:24 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 14:18:24 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 14 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Miles calls Vorob'yev on the comconsole, and tells him - with a happy smile - that he's found Ivan, who is now having a tour of the Star Creche. It's a competitive- cousin thing; Miles achieved it, so Ivan had to as well. Vorob'yev isn't happy - he says that Vorreedi doesn't like these 'spontaneous additions to the planned itinerary' - which is a glorious phrase, and basically describes Miles's entire career. he also hopes that Ivan won't (ok he puts it delicately, but basically he doesn't want Ivan to attempt any romantic interludes with the haut women. Ivan has achieved his own fame already.) "...Ivan's doing just fine. Never better." Ivan is at that moment stretched out unconscious on the floor. Then they make a few quick plans - if anything goes wrong go to Ghem-Colonel Benin or the Emperor, nobody else, there's a high-up traitor in Security. Rian's already worked that out - to get to the Ba Lura it has to be somebody with access. Pel fills her sleeves with Vio's bits and pieces, then Miles hops onto the armrest and they're off to invade the Cetagandan fleet. (All humour aside, this is so like Miles too, and heartbreakingly so - going off on his mission with no weapons, few resources, and no idea what's ahead. And the confidence that he'll succeed. He is incredibly brave, he just moves so fast you don't notice it often.) For a moment Miles wishes it was Rian, but he knows that can't be. In a way he's as divided as Mark; part of him is wallowing in his romantic ambitions, another part of him knows perfectly well that it's going nowhere. And he can maintain both of those diametrically opposed personas at the same time.) And he likes Pel, anyway - she's not so tightly-wound as the rest of them, she almost has a sense of humour. And she can be practical, and good in a crisis. He can work with her. They bubble up and join Kety's group - it's a large mob, a few dozen ghem-guards, ghem-ladies, servitors (not ghem or ba), and ghem-General Chilian. So is Chilian in on the treason, or not? He's either a traitor or he's about to die - if Kety can't use him he'll dump him. Kety waves the bubble into his own car to go to the shuttleport. He asks 'Vio' if there was a problem; Pel sets the speakers to sound like Vio. Fortunately Kety wants her to keep the bubble for a while (they have to hide Ivan, after all.) And '...my love...' shows that Kety and Vio are having a romance, or at least one of them is faking it to achieve their goals. (You know, a suitable punishment might be to put the two of them in a cell together for the rest of their lives; a century or so. Just the two of them, together forever. They deserve each other.) Pel has a quick chat with Miles, he feels really uncomfortable talking inside the bubble, but Kety can't hear a word. (You wonder what they're doing in those bubbles at social events; chatting to each other, comparing notes, telling rude jokes?) Pel wants to search for the Great Key first; Miles wants to find Nadina, she might have useful information. Kety want's to question Ivan when he wakes up, 'before.' Before...? I don't think he plans on Ivan having a long after. Then they're on the shuttle, then the ship. And the attendants all head off to do whatever they do. Miles notes that Kety has dismissed the guards; no witnesses. They head down a corridor that's obviously in the nice end of the ship, and there's a guard outside one door. Good hint. Kety heads into a bare, obviously unused cabin - to put Ivan there. Pel sends Kety to get some synergine for Ivan, and Kety is also going to get a rather intense version of Fast-Penta. (I love the idea of someone trying to interrogate Ivan under Fast-Penta. If they're sure he's the mastermind, they'll go crazy trying to figure out how he's fighting the drugs.) Kety hopes Vio didn't dose Ivan too heavily, they don't want anything to show up on the autopsy. (Just remember, Ivan was conscious but paralysed, so if things had gone to plan he'd be lying there hearing all this. That's vicious.) She doesn't want Kety's help to get Ivan out of the bubble; she says she's using him as a footrest and enjoying having a bubble again. Kety promises her that she'll have more privileges than the Empress had, and as many outworlders as she wants. Oh yes, Kety has plans. As soon as Kety is gone they head to that door guard, dose him with Vio's spray, and use his hand (still attached, don't panic, these are the good guys) to get the door open. Nadina has been stripped to her underwear - humiliating, and it would have been horrific for her - and her hair is clamped to the floor. She's been insulted in so many ways, just for their amusement basically. Yes, horrific. Haut women don't hug, not even in a crisis, but they clasp hands supportively. They have to get her loose, but the idea of cutting her hair is anathema to her. Not quite as much to Pel, but she's the practical one. Miles distracts them and cuts it anyway - it had to be done. Cutting her hair seems to affect her more than all the rest, but she gets herself together, borrows a layer or two of Pel's outfit, and they all load up onto the bubble and head off on their mission. Nadina is able to lead them to the right place to get to the Great Key; so Miles's plans are working so far. This is a long chapter, so Part 2 tomorrow. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Jul 9 15:30:59 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 14:30:59 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 14 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's not emphasised enough: Miles is incredibly brave. He's attacking a Cetagandan ship, single-handed, unarmed. This could go horribly wrong, not just for him but for Barrayar. And a special award goes to Vorreedi for '...spontaneous additions to the planned itinerary...' which is the perfect description of just about everything Miles has done so far. There has to be a question about Gregor's intentions. He's risking his two heirs, which is huge - there must have been a LOT of diplomatic guarantees on that one. But he's sent Miles to Cetaganda. He knows what Miles is like. Of course he couldn't predict this, but you just know that SOMETHING would happen. Is the Dendarii fleet lingering a few wormholes away, in case they're needed quickly? Ivan has a collection of horrific experiences, most of them due to Miles (hover-tank, collapsing tunnel...) And now there's being kidnapped by Vio. She chose a particularly nasty drug; he's completely paralysed, but awake and aware. (And he was meant to be taken to the ship, and to hear that conversation about not leaving drugs in him for the autopsy - imagine how horrific that would be.) As it was he almost had his throat cut while he was paralysed and unable to defend himself - but feeling the blade at his throat - and then he was stunned. So all the things he does after that are achieved while he has a stunner-migraine, too. Overhshadowed by Miles, of course, but he really had a horrible experience. The treatment of Nadina seems to have been unnecessarily brutal; actions were specifically chosen to humiliate and terrorise her. Vio and Kety are haut and I know that some of their attitudes are just haut arrogance, but they really do inhabit the nastiest end of the spectrum. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Jul 9 15:34:06 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 14:34:06 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Markus Baur and i wonder how many loud cries of "how could we have overlooked that" (*) will emanate from the Cetagandan dept. at Cockroach Central after Miles' and Ivan's reports (and don't think Ivan would not be carefully debriefed and could add a lot of valuable insights on ghem and haut female society) (*) and they DID overlook it or Miles and Ivan would have been much better briefed markus Gwynne: When you use the words 'Ivan' and 'debrief' in the same sentence, my mind goes in a totally different direction to the one you intended. Sorry, but it had to be said. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Jul 9 15:39:15 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 14:39:15 +0000 Subject: [LMB] A quick read In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some old fanfic inspired by some events in Cetaganda: https://archiveofourown.org/works/155738 Old Friends - Gwynne - Vorkosigan Saga - Lois McMaster Bujold [Archive of Our Own] An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works archiveofourown.org From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Jul 9 15:47:22 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 14:47:22 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Howard Brazee It would be interesting to follow other family members responses to having a Haut lady taking over the family. Gwynne: It seems to be expected that officers reaching a certain rank will get a haut wife, so maybe the ghem wives expect it to happen. The women seem to be very invested in their genetic creations, representing their clans (I wonder; do they change to their husband's clan, or stay with their birth clan?) Maybe having a haut wife in the household is a sign of status for all the other wives? Cetagandan society is big on status. I think there'd have to be a few pangs from the former Wife No. 1, but the others might be quite happy to see her and her kids knocked off their perch. Since the happy recipient is at the peak of his career by the time he gets a haut, and given their lifespan, quite possibly the ghem children are all adults and moved out to their own careers by the time the haut wife makes her new babies. From margdean56 at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 16:51:12 2022 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 09:51:12 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: <1796447658.2108813.1657369109211@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1796447658.2108813.1657369109211@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 6:18 AM H. Torrance Griffin via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > Likely because what Barrayar considered the domains the people in charge > demonstrated their right to rule with (military conquest and overt > expansionism included) were something the true rulers of the Cetas > considered 'Something to keep the boys amused". It is a matter of priority > and prestige. > As someone with a little background in anthropology (a few college courses at least), I can't help noticing that whether or not Cetagandan society is matriarchal, it is still patrilineal. The Emperor is always male, apparently, and the office passes from father to son. I also notice that even a haut wife takes her husband's surname, and so do their children. It occurs to me to wonder how much the common Cetagandan on the street--an ordinary citizen, not haut, ghem or ba--actually knows about the role of the haut women in the power structure of their society. --Margaret Dean From baur at chello.at Sat Jul 9 17:30:03 2022 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 18:30:03 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Fwd: Cetaganda - Ch 14 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4daf9730-66f4-45ff-c118-0e795c6bebf5@chello.at> Am 09.07.2022 um 16:30 schrieb Gwynne Powell: > > It's not emphasised enough: Miles is incredibly brave. He's attacking > a Cetagandan ship, single-handed, unarmed. unarmed? - he is armed with a bubble and one, later two haut women .. 8) > This could go > horribly wrong, not just for him but for Barrayar. > > And a special award goes to Vorreedi for '...spontaneous > additions to the planned itinerary...' which is the perfect > description of just about everything Miles has done so far. one gets the impression of british style levels of understatement here .. servus markus > There has to be a question about Gregor's intentions. He's > risking his two heirs, which is huge - there must have been a > LOT of diplomatic guarantees on that one. But he's sent Miles > to Cetaganda. He knows what Miles is like. Of course he > couldn't predict this, but you just know that SOMETHING would > happen. Is the Dendarii fleet lingering a few wormholes away, > in case they're needed quickly? > > Ivan has a collection of horrific experiences, most of them > due to Miles (hover-tank, collapsing tunnel...) And now > there's being kidnapped by Vio. She chose a particularly > nasty drug; he's completely paralysed, but awake and aware. > (And he was meant to be taken to the ship, and to hear that > conversation about not leaving drugs in him for the autopsy - > imagine how horrific that would be.) As it was he almost had > his throat cut while he was paralysed and unable to defend > himself - but feeling the blade at his throat - and then he was > stunned. So all the things he does after that are achieved > while he has a stunner-migraine, too. Overhshadowed by > Miles, of course, but he really had a horrible experience. > > The treatment of Nadina seems to have been unnecessarily > brutal; actions were specifically chosen to humiliate and > terrorise her. Vio and Kety are haut and I know that some of > their attitudes are just haut arrogance, but they really do > inhabit the nastiest end of the spectrum. From baur at chello.at Sat Jul 9 17:30:45 2022 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 18:30:45 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Am 09.07.2022 um 16:34 schrieb Gwynne Powell: > From: Markus Baur > > and i wonder how many loud cries of "how could we have overlooked that" > (*) will emanate from the Cetagandan dept. at Cockroach Central after > Miles' and Ivan's reports (and don't think Ivan would not be carefully > debriefed and could add a lot of valuable insights on ghem and haut > female society) > (*) and they DID overlook it or Miles and Ivan would have been much > better briefed > markus > > Gwynne: When you use the words 'Ivan' and 'debrief' in the same sentence, > my mind goes in a totally different direction to the one you intended. i fear you will have to elaborate on this .. you lost be (probably due to me not being an english native speaker( servus markus > Sorry, but it had to be said. From huntkc at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 17:51:41 2022 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 12:51:41 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "brief" - underwear On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 12:30 PM Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > Am 09.07.2022 um 16:34 schrieb Gwynne Powell: > > From: Markus Baur > > > > and i wonder how many loud cries of "how could we have overlooked that" > > (*) will emanate from the Cetagandan dept. at Cockroach Central after > > Miles' and Ivan's reports (and don't think Ivan would not be carefully > > debriefed and could add a lot of valuable insights on ghem and haut > > female society) > > (*) and they DID overlook it or Miles and Ivan would have been much > > better briefed > > markus > > > > Gwynne: When you use the words 'Ivan' and 'debrief' in the same sentence, > > my mind goes in a totally different direction to the one you intended. > > i fear you will have to elaborate on this .. you lost be (probably due > to me not being an english native speaker( > > servus > > markus > > > Sorry, but it had to be said. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to huntkc at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 17:54:57 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 11:54:57 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wonder if the Haut have special dietary requirements? On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 8:55 AM Carol Botteron wrote: > Richard Molpus: > It seems the Haut women given to successful Ghem are intended to mix Haut > genes into the Ghem matrix. that's why a Haut wife's offspring outrank and > earlier children (presumably, the Ghem so honored won't be making any > further children with a lower-rank wife). > > Carol B: > Looking at this from the other side: The Ghem wife and children of a Ghem > officer would like the officer to be moderately successful. But not _too_ > successful. If he were assigned a Haut wife, they would lose their status. > I wonder how much career sabotage goes on within Ghem families? > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 18:11:08 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 12:11:08 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Alternate Cetaganda story Message-ID: I wonder what would have happened if the Koudelka girls had been sent to the state funeral instead of, or along with, Ivan and Miles? When Ivan gets back from the "assignation" with the ghem women, the Koudelkas are giving him identical glares... From baur at chello.at Sat Jul 9 18:26:38 2022 From: baur at chello.at (Markus Baur) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 19:26:38 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <209c5173-5d1d-c9bc-747f-2e771c37c9d4@chello.at> thank you .. yes .. a thoroughly amusing (and potentially stimulating) mental picture 8) servus markus Am 09.07.2022 um 18:51 schrieb Karen Hunt: > "brief" - underwear > > On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 12:30 PM Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > >> >> >> Am 09.07.2022 um 16:34 schrieb Gwynne Powell: >>> From: Markus Baur >>> >>> and i wonder how many loud cries of "how could we have overlooked that" >>> (*) will emanate from the Cetagandan dept. at Cockroach Central after >>> Miles' and Ivan's reports (and don't think Ivan would not be carefully >>> debriefed and could add a lot of valuable insights on ghem and haut >>> female society) >>> (*) and they DID overlook it or Miles and Ivan would have been much >>> better briefed >>> markus >>> >>> Gwynne: When you use the words 'Ivan' and 'debrief' in the same sentence, >>> my mind goes in a totally different direction to the one you intended. >> >> i fear you will have to elaborate on this .. you lost be (probably due >> to me not being an english native speaker( >> >> servus >> >> markus >> >>> Sorry, but it had to be said. >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to huntkc at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> From profjenn12 at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 18:48:43 2022 From: profjenn12 at gmail.com (J Woodruff) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 13:48:43 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: CVA makes it clear that Rae ghem Estif's son with his ghem wife was an adult when he was awarded Moira. I can't remember without looking it up (and I just reread CVA. . . must . .not . . reread. . .again) but I think his ghem wife had died before he married Moira? JLWT *********** *"der Platz einer Frau ist in ihrer Firma""The problem with the speed of light is it comes so early in the morning." (Albert Einstein)* *"Historiography has then three functions: to entertain our imagination, to gratify our curiosity, and to discharge a debt we owe our ancestors." (C.S. Lewis)"If all we have to offer back to the God of the cosmos is Precious Moments, we're in trouble." (Barbara Nicolosi)* *"Some things are complicated, and denying it only makes them more so." (John Churchill)* *?You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyway.? (Robert Jordan)"The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart." (Lois McMaster Bujold)************ On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 10:47 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Howard Brazee > > It would be interesting to follow other family members responses to having > a Haut lady taking over the family. > > Gwynne: It seems to be expected that officers reaching a certain rank will > get a haut wife, so maybe the ghem wives expect it to happen. The women > seem to be very invested in their genetic creations, representing their > clans > (I wonder; do they change to their husband's clan, or stay with their > birth clan?) > > Maybe having a haut wife in the household is a sign of status for all the > other > wives? Cetagandan society is big on status. > > I think there'd have to be a few pangs from the former Wife No. 1, but the > others might be quite happy to see her and her kids knocked off their > perch. > > Since the happy recipient is at the peak of his career by the time he gets > a > haut, and given their lifespan, quite possibly the ghem children are all > adults > and moved out to their own careers by the time the haut wife makes her new > babies. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to profjenn12 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From matt.msg at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 18:54:06 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 13:54:06 -0400 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This hypothetical class of exogamous women sounds an awful lot like the Bene Gesserit. I presume it's parallel design/evolution. Matt G. From wawenri at msn.com Sat Jul 9 19:08:19 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 18:08:19 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Zoom Message-ID: With all of the talk of time zones and DST, I had set my calendar for 12:00 pm MDT. It looks like I?m an hour early. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. From howard at brazee.net Sat Jul 9 19:23:02 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 12:23:02 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Zoom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92C4560F-640E-4C70-8575-20183292CB7A@brazee.net> I believe my computer translated everything. I clicked on the message showing: Topic: Vorkosigan Tea Party - Elizabeth Holden's Zoom Meeting Time: Jul 9, 2022 03:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) and it created a calendar event (on my Mac) for 1:00 Colorado time. > On Jul 9, 2022, at 12:08 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > With all of the talk of time zones and DST, I had set my calendar for 12:00 pm MDT. > > It looks like I?m an hour early. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to howard at brazee.net > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From domelouann at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 19:34:51 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 13:34:51 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Zoom In-Reply-To: <92C4560F-640E-4C70-8575-20183292CB7A@brazee.net> References: <92C4560F-640E-4C70-8575-20183292CB7A@brazee.net> Message-ID: I have all my settings adjusted, and am about to join in myself. I will need to leave a bit early due to family errands. On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 1:23 PM Howard Brazee wrote: > I believe my computer translated everything. > > I clicked on the message showing: > Topic: Vorkosigan Tea Party - Elizabeth Holden's Zoom Meeting > Time: Jul 9, 2022 03:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) > > and it created a calendar event (on my Mac) for 1:00 Colorado time. > > > > > On Jul 9, 2022, at 12:08 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > > > With all of the talk of time zones and DST, I had set my calendar for > 12:00 pm MDT. > > > > It looks like I?m an hour early. > > > > William A Wenrich > > > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to howard at brazee.net > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to domelouann at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From kate.soley.barton at btinternet.com Sat Jul 9 19:53:46 2022 From: kate.soley.barton at btinternet.com (kate.soley.barton) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 19:53:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: [LMB] COVID apologies (Tea Party) Message-ID: <3c3b251b.f4f9.181e44f8776.Webtop.99@btinternet.com> I'm?having?a?very?fuzzy?day,??due?to?COVID,??so?I'm?skipping?this?time.??Will?be?needing?another?nap?soon... Best?wishes?and?stay?safe,? Kate? From margdean56 at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 19:54:59 2022 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 12:54:59 -0600 Subject: [LMB] COVID apologies (Tea Party) In-Reply-To: <3c3b251b.f4f9.181e44f8776.Webtop.99@btinternet.com> References: <3c3b251b.f4f9.181e44f8776.Webtop.99@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Hope you feel better soon, Kate! Take care of yourself! On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 12:53 PM kate.soley.barton via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > I'm having a very fuzzy day, due to COVID, so I'm skipping this time. Will be needing another nap soon... > Best wishes and stay safe, > Kate > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to margdean56 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From margdean56 at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 20:00:26 2022 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 13:00:26 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 10:55 AM Eric Oppen wrote: > I wonder if the Haut have special dietary requirements? > Biologically, probably not (I'd think what is colloquially called a "cast-iron stomach" would be something to strive for, genetically), but cultural dietary restrictions or requirements are a possibility. --Margaret Dean From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 21:13:53 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 15:13:53 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda, wormholes, astronomy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That would definitely be the ast of a desperate people. Hopefully the planet won't be colonized before they reach it. On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 8:33 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: WILLIAM A WENRICH > > > There has been a lot of speculation on list about how wormholes work. Are > they line of sight? Is what you find on the other end in the same galaxy or > even the same universe?... > William A Wenrich > > Gwynne: I wonder how close some of those worlds are in r/l. Would it be > a tactic in war to send a fleet on the long, slow way round, to pop up > unexpectedly where a planet wasn't expecting them because they'd kept > guards on the wormholes? Or to use that as part of a coordinated attack? > > And would it be cheaper to send some non-urgent cargo the long way, for > some reason - avoiding the law, or refugees fleeing a planet that didn't > want > them to leave? Put everyone except the crew in stasis, then head off in an > unexpected direction, using various comets, asteroid belts or planetary > explosions to cover you, while the bad guys are still watching the > wormholes > and think they've got the escapees trapped. It might take years, even > centuries, for the sleepers to arrive at some safe planet, but they'd get > there > in the end, and be free. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alzurite at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 21:41:38 2022 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 16:41:38 -0400 Subject: [LMB] COVID apologies (Tea Party) In-Reply-To: <3c3b251b.f4f9.181e44f8776.Webtop.99@btinternet.com> References: <3c3b251b.f4f9.181e44f8776.Webtop.99@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Feel better soon, Kate! We missed you. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 2:54 PM kate.soley.barton via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > I'm having a very fuzzy day, due to COVID, so I'm skipping this time. Will be needing another nap soon... > Best wishes and stay safe, > Kate > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to azurite at azurite.ca > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From kathleen.morrison at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 21:59:56 2022 From: kathleen.morrison at gmail.com (Kathleen Morrison) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 16:59:56 -0400 Subject: [LMB] COVID apologies (Tea Party) In-Reply-To: References: <3c3b251b.f4f9.181e44f8776.Webtop.99@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Had a great time even if I did have to cut things short. Stay well everybody! Kathleen(laptop) On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 4:41 PM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Feel better soon, Kate! We missed you. > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > > > On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 2:54 PM kate.soley.barton via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > I'm having a very fuzzy day, due to COVID, so I'm skipping this time. > Will be needing another nap soon... > > Best wishes and stay safe, > > Kate > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to azurite at azurite.ca > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kathleen.morrison at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From kcollett at hamilton.edu Sat Jul 9 22:09:38 2022 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Kathy Collett) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 17:09:38 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party book list Message-ID: I culled from the tea party saved chat all the books that were mentioned there; of course, some were only mentioned out loud and aren?t included here, if people want to add them. Some of the mentions in the chat included short descriptions that seemed likely to be useful, but a lot were just giving the title and author of what was already being discussed on Zoom. Winston Churchill biography by William Manchester, volume 3 Tinker books by Wen Spencer, also Black Wolves of Boston and A Brother's Price Exordium books by Sherwood Smith. Frieren: Beyond Journey?s End, by Kanehito Yamada (graphic novel) Because Internet: Understanding the New Rules of Language by Gretchen McCulloch The Hands of the Emperor by Victoria Goddard _Goblin Emperor_ by Katherine Addison (aka Sarah Monette) - kind. Also The Witness for the Dead, The Grief of Stones, and Angel of the Crows ?A Declaration of the Rights of Magicians? and its sequel by HG Parry - adds vampires & magic to Pitt the Younger & Wilberforce & the French Revolution & Napoleon & the slave revolution in Haiti Dana Stabenow?s recent series set in Ptolemaic Egypt (in the time of Caesar and Cleopatra) - ?Disappearance of A Scribe? , ?Death of An Eye? Gerald Durrell's "The Mockery Bird" Doug Tallamy's Nature's Last Hope The Flowering Inferno is one of the stories collected in "Mirabile" by Janet Kagan. Ecologically based shorts, great fun, also includes ?The Loch Moose Monster", "Frankenswine" and "Kangaroo Rex". Getting the Bugs Out _Temeraire_ by Naomi Novik. Jo Walton, _Tooth And Claw_, Trollope-like Victorian Dragons. Megan Whalen Turner, starting with _The Thief_ The Murderbot Diaries by Martha Wells. Jane Austen's Dragons series by Maria Grace T Kingfisher is also Ursula Vernon. Both rock! A Spindle Splintered & A Mirror Mended. By Alix E Harrow2 short novellas inspired by Grimm?s FairyTales, very inventive and yet very true to source. And a gay love story. Harrow?s two long novels: 10,000 Doors of January and The Once and Future Witches are amazing - not necessarily comfortable, more edge of your seat, but really excellently written. Jayne Ann Castle. Harmony series books _The Dragon Hoard_ by Tanith Lee - fluffy, friendly young adult. Martha Wells? Murderbot series; Fall of Ile-Rien series. Hornblower on Audible: https://www.audible.com/series/Horatio-Hornblower-chronological-order-Audiobooks/B006WRDNHC Hornblower titles on downpour.com: https://www.downpour.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=horatio%20hornblower and also good on audio. _Leadership_ by Doris Kearns Goodwin I hope this is useful! Katherine From alzurite at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 22:14:22 2022 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 17:14:22 -0400 Subject: [LMB] the Vorkosigan Tea Party - Sat July 9 Message-ID: I really enjoyed our Tea Party - I suppose I should have noted the number of people there. Maybe next time I'll remember to do that. Anyway, we were a goodly number, including some people who haven't posted in a while, and Lois McMaster Bujold Herself. We talked about books, and full bookshelves, and how many of us sat in front of our books to use Zoom, and the state of our Bujold collections on and off Kindle. (Of course we all have Bujold collections. Goes without saying.) We talked more about books and shared recommendations. I will probably have errors with authors and titles here but people are welcome to correct me. We talked about Korean and Chinese TV and how readily available it is now. Recommendations: Hotel del Luna (which Lois is watching. The Untamed Nirvana In Fire Several of us heaped praise on the Horatio Hornblower series of novels by C.S. Forster, and the wonderful ITV TV series from 1998-2003; comparisons were made between Miles and Horatio (re; competence porn, I think, or at least highly intelligent and inventive heroes). Books: Tinker -Wen Spencer Exordium - I missed the author's name (and Amazon has many books of that title) The Phoenix Feather by Sherwood Smith (I think) The Hands of the Emperor by Victoria Goddard A Declaration of the Rights of Magicians by H.G. Parry (The Shadow Magicians, book 1) Nature's Last Hope by Doug Tallamy Mirabile by Janet Kagan Wolf Hunting (Firekeeper series) by Jane Lindskold The Dragoneer Academy series by E.E. Knight Tooth and Claw by Jo Walton Jane Austen's Dragons by Maria Grace anything by Jane Yolen anything by T Kingfisher (Ursula Vernon) with special mention of The Hamster Princess Red as Blood by Tanith Lee, also The Dragon Hoard Jayne Ann Castle's Harmony series The 10,000 Doors of January by Alix E. Harrow; also A Mirror Mended and The Once and Future Witches The Comfortable Courtesan by A.E. Hall Seduced by a Scot by Julia Landon Non-fiction: Because Internet: Understanding the New Rules of Language by Gretchen McCulloch Sex and the Scientist, the indecent life of Benjamin Thompson, Count Rumford by Jane Merrill namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From alzurite at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 22:17:28 2022 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 17:17:28 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party book list Message-ID: Kathy Collett said: > I culled from the tea party saved chat all the books that were mentioned there Well done, Kathy! I made notes (see my notes in the message I just sent), but didn't catch the ones in the chat, and certainly didn't catch everything we talked about, so you have many I didn't make note of. Amazing how many books a few people can discuss in so short a time. What I'm asking myself is: How will I ever find time to read them? namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From profjenn12 at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 22:23:53 2022 From: profjenn12 at gmail.com (J Woodruff) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 17:23:53 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party book list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I went straight from the Tea Party to the library and checked out *Because Internet* and am sitting here reading it right now. On Sat, Jul 9, 2022, 5:17 PM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > Kathy Collett said: > > > I culled from the tea party saved chat all the books that were mentioned > there > > Well done, Kathy! I made notes (see my notes in the message I just sent), > but didn't catch the ones in the chat, and certainly didn't catch > everything we talked about, so you have many I didn't make note of. > > Amazing how many books a few people can discuss in so short a time. > > What I'm asking myself is: How will I ever find time to read them? > > namaste, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Holden > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to profjenn12 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 22:34:10 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 16:34:10 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party book list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well I really screwed up. Sorry I missed the Tea Party. I was looking forward to it. I hope to see you later. On Sat, Jul 9, 2022, 4:24 PM J Woodruff wrote: > I went straight from the Tea Party to the library and checked out *Because > Internet* and am sitting here reading it right now. > > On Sat, Jul 9, 2022, 5:17 PM Elizabeth Holden wrote: > > > Kathy Collett said: > > > > > I culled from the tea party saved chat all the books that were > mentioned > > there > > > > Well done, Kathy! I made notes (see my notes in the message I just > sent), > > but didn't catch the ones in the chat, and certainly didn't catch > > everything we talked about, so you have many I didn't make note of. > > > > Amazing how many books a few people can discuss in so short a time. > > > > What I'm asking myself is: How will I ever find time to read them? > > > > namaste, > > Elizabeth > > > > Elizabeth Holden > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to profjenn12 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sat Jul 9 22:46:49 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 17:46:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] COVID apologies (Tea Party) In-Reply-To: <3c3b251b.f4f9.181e44f8776.Webtop.99@btinternet.com> References: <3c3b251b.f4f9.181e44f8776.Webtop.99@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Kste, I do hope you recover soon. This virus is no fun. Alayne On Sat, 9 Jul 2022, kate.soley.barton via Lois-Bujold wrote: > I'm?having?a?very?fuzzy?day,??due?to?COVID,??so?I'm?skipping?this?time.??Will?be?needing?another?nap?soon... > Best?wishes?and?stay?safe,? -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From fred.fredex at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 23:01:29 2022 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 18:01:29 -0400 Subject: [LMB] A quick read In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!! On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 10:39 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Some old fanfic inspired by some events in Cetaganda: > > https://archiveofourown.org/works/155738 > Old Friends - Gwynne - Vorkosigan Saga - Lois McMaster Bujold [Archive of > Our Own] > An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative > Works > archiveofourown.org > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From beatrice_otter at zoho.com Sat Jul 9 23:22:32 2022 From: beatrice_otter at zoho.com (Beatrice Otter) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2022 15:22:32 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party book list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <181e50eaa3a.caea833f71660.109472514026438217@zoho.com> ---- On Sat, 09 Jul 2022 14:09:38 -0700 Kathy Collett wrote --- I culled from the tea party saved chat all the books that were mentioned there; of course, some were only mentioned out loud and aren?t included here, if people want to add them. Some of the mentions in the chat included short descriptions that seemed likely to be useful, but a lot were just giving the title and author of what was already being discussed on Zoom. Beatrice Otter: Thank you for the list! Several of them I have read and definitely second the recommendations for. Most recently, I've been reading nonfiction, personally. I think people on this list would appreciate a couple of them, notably: The Bright Ages: A New History of Medieval Europe, by Matthew Gabriele and David M. Perry The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity by David Graeber and David Wengrow Beatrice Otter From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sat Jul 9 23:30:22 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 18:30:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 14 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great comments as always, Gwynne. I utterly sympathize with Ivan's plight here too -- and to be fair it wasn't as though he put himself in dangerous situation, either. He was just attending a concert. To respond to one of your points: On Sat, 9 Jul 2022, Gwynne Powell wrote: > There has to be a question about Gregor's intentions. He's > risking his two heirs, which is huge - there must have been a > LOT of diplomatic guarantees on that one. But he's sent Miles > to Cetaganda. He knows what Miles is like. Of course he > couldn't predict this, but you just know that SOMETHING would > happen. Is the Dendarii fleet lingering a few wormholes away, > in case they're needed quickly? Perhaps Gregor said, "Cetaganda - I've never been there! The funeral sounds like a perfect way for me to learn more about that society." and his entire array of advisors from the PM down blanched at the risk of letting their Emperor get into the hands of the Cetagandans. So they compromised on Miles and Ivan, with Gregor telling both of them he wanted a FULL recounting of what it was like. Maybe he figured that those two were the ones most likely to see behind the scenes and to be forgiven any trespasses. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sat Jul 9 23:49:42 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 18:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] OT: New Kerry Greenwood and Sulari Gentill books Message-ID: Just discovered in my library catalogue that there's a collection of Phryne Fisher stories just published: _The Lady With the Gun Asks the Questions_: Booklist This volume of short stories, originally published in Australia in 2007, features four pieces written in 2019 and 2020; the older material has been revised, too, making the book a nearly new collection of Phryne Fisher adventures, which is great news for fans of Greenwood's 1920s Australian aristocrat and private investigator. Among other things, Fisher digs into the disappearance of a woman's husband; deals with an unwanted marriage proposal; investigates a jewelry robbery; hunts for a stolen book; and tries to solve an apparent triple homicide. As always, the star of the show isn't the crime; it's Phryne herself. She's outspoken, bawdy, streetwise, elegant, and absolutely impossible not to love. Fans of the long-running Fisher series or its television adaptation will really enjoy these bite-size adventures. Phryne last appeared in Death in Daylesford (2021). as well, there's finally an American publication of the tenth Rowland Sinclair novel by fellow Australian Sulari Gentill, _Where There's a Will_ -- this one set in the U.S.: "When Rowland Sinclair receives word of his friend Daniel Cartwright's death, he sets out immediately from Singapore to Boston to honor the American millionaire's last wishes to execute his will. He is met with the outrage and anguish of a family spurned in favor of a missing heir about whom no one seems to have any knowledge-one Otis Norcross. As Rowly battles pressure from all sides to declare the mysterious heir non-existent, he finds evidence at Daniel's New York City apartment to suggest that Otis was his lover. As he and his friends follow leads up and down the Eastern seaboard, they learn some painful truths surrounding Daniel's necessity to hide his sexual orientation." Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From domelouann at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 00:14:23 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 18:14:23 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party book list In-Reply-To: <181e50eaa3a.caea833f71660.109472514026438217@zoho.com> References: <181e50eaa3a.caea833f71660.109472514026438217@zoho.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 5:22 PM Beatrice Otter via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > ---- On Sat, 09 Jul 2022 14:09:38 -0700 Kathy Collett < > kcollett at hamilton.edu> wrote --- > > I culled from the tea party saved chat all the books that were mentioned > there > The Churchill biography by William Manchester has the collective title "The Last Lion." Volume 1, covering 1874-1932, is "Visions of Glory." Volume 2, "Alone," covers 1932 to 1940. Volume 3 with Paul Reid assisting is "Defender of the Realm" and covers 1940-1965. Obviously, it takes a lot of interest in a historical figure to read about 2500 pages of biography. Churchill had many flaws as well as virtues. IMO the biography covers both pretty fairly. One especially Milesian incident from Volume 1 comes to mind. Churchill was a young Army officer when the Boer War happened. His regiment was not fighting there, or doing much of anything else. With a combination of fast talking and trading on his family rank (his grandfather was a Duke) Churchill got permission to visit the war front on his own as a foreign correspondent. He did file many stories, which he later collected into a book. At one point he was captured and put in a Boer POW camp. He was safe there and fairly comfortable, but he was climbing the walls with anxiety that his fellow soldiers were out there winning glory and reputation. He happened to overhear two older British soldiers who had an escape plan. Churchill invited himself along. He somehow managed to be the only one of the three who actually got out of the camp and, ultimately, to the British lines. From mathews55 at msn.com Sun Jul 10 01:02:12 2022 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 00:02:12 +0000 Subject: [LMB] A quick read In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Me, too! ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Fred Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2022 4:01 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] A quick read ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!! On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 10:39 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Some old fanfic inspired by some events in Cetaganda: > > https://archiveofourown.org/works/155738 > Old Friends - Gwynne - Vorkosigan Saga - Lois McMaster Bujold [Archive of > Our Own] > An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative > Works > archiveofourown.org > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From lbujold at myinfmail.com Sun Jul 10 01:23:01 2022 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 19:23:01 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Asian media recs mentioned at the Tea Party Message-ID: <06e5bfa9-769c-8ae7-3962-fce901bcb710@myinfmail.com> Right, so, to recap... I've been watching Japanese anime and reading manga for years, but have only lately stumbled on to the much wider world of Asian media, now widely available through streaming services.? I'll assume most Americans have at least a passing familiarity with martial arts and Jackie Chan movies from the prior generation, and the few big-budget films that have made it across translation barriers starting with _Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon_. _Way_ more is available now.? The first one I really came upon, through a connection with someone talking about an anime I liked, was _The Untamed_, 50-episode TV drama, which I have gone on about at length: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59420689-grandmaster-of-demonic-cultivation so won't retype it all here. Most basic information for someone going into this new is that there are (among others) two genres of Chinese fantasy, wuxia,"martial heroes", martial arts stuff, sometimes with magic/supernatural elements and sometimes not, and xainxia, "immortal heroes", more overtly fantasy, focusing on Daoist magic and magicians (sometimes called "cultivators" or "immortals", depending on the translations), gods (sometimes) and a whole raft of Chinese historical folkloric traditions.? A quick check of Daoism on Wikipedia will give you some idea of what this now-well-developed modern genre is jumping off from, but not into.? "The Untamed" is an example of xianxia. My main sources so far are Netflix and Amazon Prime, widely available, and Rakuten Viki, www.viki.com which has a huge range of live-action stuff I've barely begun to explore. (I signed up to watch the Untamed spinoff movie _Fatal Journey_, which features my favorite character from the TV-web show but should _not_ be watched first.) Also mentioned: _Hotel Del Luna_, supernatural fantasy in a (mostly) modern Korean setting, superb production values and, so far gripping story, TV series, to be found on Netflix and Viki. Following up from _The Untamed_ is _Once Upon a Time in Lingjian Mountain_, a cultivator _comedy_ TV-web series and send-up of all the tropes taken seriously in _The Untamed_, which I figured, correctly, would give me an immersion course in what are considered the standard genre tropes and cliches.? Also, it's pretty funny. Also recced from Netflix: _Legend of Exorcism_, 3-D animation fantasy set in the Tang period.? _Green Snake_, feature-length animation, which I thought from the promo was going to be some sort of dystopian action thing, not my bag, but turned into something _much_ more interesting.? _Heaven Official's Blessing_, (start) of another series by the "Grandmaster" writer, different set of Chinese fantasy tropes.? _The Yin Yang Master_ and _The Yin Yang Master: Dream of Eternity_, which are two films unrelated to each other but each based on the Japanese historical/mythical court magician Abe no Seimei, (and his friend court noble Hiromasa) not too misleadingly dubbed "the Japanese Merlin", who turns up in many, many interpretations.? (I'm very fond of the 2001 Japanese film _Onmyoji_ (and _Onmyoji II_) which has a closer-to-the-source Seimei and Hiromasa based on a series of light novels from the 1990s that have not, as far as I know, been translated.? But it's harder to find.) And that's probably enough for starters.? Sitting in my DVD pile awaiting my attention is also _The Scholar Who Walks the Night_, Korean-historical vampire thing.? (Also on Viki, I see.)? The vampires are oddly Transylvanian in style, but I guess visual media culture is international now... I note one can explore the contents on the Viki site without signing up, which should give one a good idea of the available range. Anybody got more recs in this arena? Ta, L. From fishman at panix.com Sun Jul 10 02:30:02 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 01:30:02 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Asian media recs mentioned at the Tea Party In-Reply-To: <06e5bfa9-769c-8ae7-3962-fce901bcb710@myinfmail.com> References: <06e5bfa9-769c-8ae7-3962-fce901bcb710@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: I watched the first episode of _The Untamed_ on Amazon Prime and I am totally confused. ;-(( Harvey ------ Original Message ------ >From "Lois Bujold" To lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Date 7/9/2022 8:23:01 PM Subject [LMB] Asian media recs mentioned at the Tea Party >Right, so, to recap... > >I've been watching Japanese anime and reading manga for years, but have only lately stumbled on to the much wider world of Asian media, now widely available through streaming services. I'll assume most Americans have at least a passing familiarity with martial arts and Jackie Chan movies from the prior generation, and the few big-budget films that have made it across translation barriers starting with _Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon_. > >_Way_ more is available now. The first one I really came upon, through a connection with someone talking about an anime I liked, was _The Untamed_, 50-episode TV drama, which I have gone on about at length: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59420689-grandmaster-of-demonic-cultivation so won't retype it all here. > >Most basic information for someone going into this new is that there are (among others) two genres of Chinese fantasy, wuxia,"martial heroes", martial arts stuff, sometimes with magic/supernatural elements and sometimes not, and xainxia, "immortal heroes", more overtly fantasy, focusing on Daoist magic and magicians (sometimes called "cultivators" or "immortals", depending on the translations), gods (sometimes) and a whole raft of Chinese historical folkloric traditions. A quick check of Daoism on Wikipedia will give you some idea of what this now-well-developed modern genre is jumping off from, but not into. "The Untamed" is an example of xianxia. > >My main sources so far are Netflix and Amazon Prime, widely available, and Rakuten Viki, www.viki.com which has a huge range of live-action stuff I've barely begun to explore. (I signed up to watch the Untamed spinoff movie _Fatal Journey_, which features my favorite character from the TV-web show but should _not_ be watched first.) > >Also mentioned: _Hotel Del Luna_, supernatural fantasy in a (mostly) modern Korean setting, superb production values and, so far gripping story, TV series, to be found on Netflix and Viki. > >Following up from _The Untamed_ is _Once Upon a Time in Lingjian Mountain_, a cultivator _comedy_ TV-web series and send-up of all the tropes taken seriously in _The Untamed_, which I figured, correctly, would give me an immersion course in what are considered the standard genre tropes and cliches. Also, it's pretty funny. > >Also recced from Netflix: _Legend of Exorcism_, 3-D animation fantasy set in the Tang period. _Green Snake_, feature-length animation, which I thought from the promo was going to be some sort of dystopian action thing, not my bag, but turned into something _much_ more interesting. _Heaven Official's Blessing_, (start) of another series by the "Grandmaster" writer, different set of Chinese fantasy tropes. _The Yin Yang Master_ and _The Yin Yang Master: Dream of Eternity_, which are two films unrelated to each other but each based on the Japanese historical/mythical court magician Abe no Seimei, (and his friend court noble Hiromasa) not too misleadingly dubbed "the Japanese Merlin", who turns up in many, many interpretations. (I'm very fond of the 2001 Japanese film _Onmyoji_ (and _Onmyoji II_) which has a closer-to-the-source Seimei and Hiromasa based on a series of light novels from the 1990s that have not, as far as I know, been translated. But it's harder to find.) > >And that's probably enough for starters. Sitting in my DVD pile awaiting my attention is also _The Scholar Who Walks the Night_, Korean-historical vampire thing. (Also on Viki, I see.) The vampires are oddly Transylvanian in style, but I guess visual media culture is international now... > >I note one can explore the contents on the Viki site without signing up, which should give one a good idea of the available range. > >Anybody got more recs in this arena? > >Ta, L. > >-- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From tlambs1138 at charter.net Sun Jul 10 02:48:48 2022 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 18:48:48 -0700 Subject: [LMB] the Vorkosigan Tea Party - Sat July 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02f101d893ff$32e76a40$98b63ec0$@charter.net> So glad I was able to go this time! The books I mentioned for when your brain feels fluffy were the Clorinda books by L. A. Hall, starting with The Comfortable Courtesan. The mainline series is 12 books long, and then there are several sidebar books in the same universe, though after a while I had trouble keeping track of everybody and their childeren and paramours and...well, you get the idea. But they are lovely reading and are amazingly diverse, as Clorinda's staff is mainly black and she knows lots and lots of people with diverse backgrounds and tastes. I had a very enjoyable time and was delighted I could finally make it. Jean Lamb tlambs1138 at charter.net https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20 From howard at brazee.net Sun Jul 10 02:55:40 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 19:55:40 -0600 Subject: [LMB] the Vorkosigan Tea Party - Sat July 9 In-Reply-To: <02f101d893ff$32e76a40$98b63ec0$@charter.net> References: <02f101d893ff$32e76a40$98b63ec0$@charter.net> Message-ID: <2A361177-D6D3-47A1-8AAD-6EA8EAC266B0@brazee.net> > On Jul 9, 2022, at 7:48 PM, Jean Lamb wrote: > > So glad I was able to go this time! The books I mentioned for when your > brain feels fluffy were the Clorinda books by L. A. Hall, starting with The > Comfortable Courtesan. I?ve read two books with a different ?fallen woman?, the A Sarah Tolerance Mysteries by Madeleine E. Robins. From cjbotteron at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 02:57:44 2022 From: cjbotteron at gmail.com (Carol Botteron) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 21:57:44 -0400 Subject: [LMB] A quick read Message-ID: Gwynne: Some old fanfic inspired by some events in Cetaganda: https://archiveofourown.org/works/155738 Old Friends - Gwynne - Vorkosigan Saga - Lois McMaster Bujold Carol: Thank you, this was fun! Is it possible to search Archive of Our Own for, say, fics based on Cetaganda, written by anyone? I tried a few possibilities without success. From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 03:59:50 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 22:59:50 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: <49126675-1cab-c97c-b11f-6f14489e5aad@myinfmail.com> <1716906507.35781.1657321781226@mail.yahoo.com> <7e50f4fe-73c3-1e5a-d5f2-09fb8325d0b4@chello.at> <6CEFD15C-9A23-4853-AAC2-957B1DA1002B@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 9:12 AM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On 09/07/2022 13:41, Howard Brazee wrote: > > It would be interesting to follow other family members responses to > having a Haut lady taking over the family. > Now that you mention it, in a matriarchal society a women coming in and > saying "I'm first wife now", might elicit the same reaction as in a > patriarchal society where someone said "I was sent by the emperor to be > your new Daddy". > -- > Has an Emperor ever set up a new dad? Is Ceta set up to be vaguely Japanese? Is that something culturally possible, however unlikely? Sylvia From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 04:55:09 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 22:55:09 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Japan parallels in the Vorkosiverse Message-ID: In a lot of ways, Barrayar is like Meiji-period Japan. Coming out of a long period of isolation, wrenching transition to modernity, noble class having to re-invent itself while keeping its values as much as possible, and probably other things (I'm not a real expert on that period of Japanese history.) Meanwhile, Cetaganda reminds me of stuff I've read about Heian-era Japan, much, much earlier. Intense interest in the arts, women wielding enormous power behind the scenes and behind a screen of outward deference to men, elaborate costumes showing one's status, and things like that. I wish Kij Johnson (whom I knew at St. Olaf) was on this list---she's far more into the Heian period than I am. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Jul 10 06:17:19 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 05:17:19 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Margaret Dean As someone with a little background in anthropology (a few college courses at least), I can't help noticing that whether or not Cetagandan society is matriarchal, it is still patrilineal. The Emperor is always male, apparently, and the office passes from father to son. I also notice that even a haut wife takes her husband's surname, and so do their children. It occurs to me to wonder how much the common Cetagandan on the street--an ordinary citizen, not haut, ghem or ba--actually knows about the role of the haut women in the power structure of their society. --Margaret Dean Gwynne: Big hello to a fellow almost-anthropologist. I started training for it, but the need for money pushed me into teaching. I figured I was studying wild tribes anyway. As for Cetaganda - it's definitely a matriarchy. The haut ladies allow the ghem to play their patriarchal games, it keeps the boys occupied. And they really don't care what the ghem do; the haut ladies keep track of all genomes in their own way, with their own files - and haut/ghem crosses are almost certainly filed under the haut woman's name. We're used to governments and societies that keep track of people, that run a system of some sort - patriarchy, etc - that organises them. But Cetaganda is, as I've said before, deceptive. All of ghem society - the marriages, the military, the clans, the rewards and ranks - it's all just, to the haut, a form of babysitting. The haut men are pretty much drones. A few of them are governors and presumably other ranks in the political totem pole, doing some diplomatic work, but it's just to fill in the time. The haut women do the important work, control the genome, manipulate the DNA, work their socks off. And each group thinks they're the important ones. The ones who make a difference. And they do, in their own spheres. But the haut women could take the rest of them down in a day if they had to. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Jul 10 06:22:53 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 05:22:53 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Markus Baur > and i wonder how many loud cries of "how could we have overlooked that" > (*) will emanate from the Cetagandan dept. at Cockroach Central after > Miles' and Ivan's reports (and don't think Ivan would not be carefully > debriefed and could add a lot of valuable insights on ghem and haut > female society) > (*) and they DID overlook it or Miles and Ivan would have been much > better briefed > markus > > Gwynne: When you use the words 'Ivan' and 'debrief' in the same sentence, > my mind goes in a totally different direction to the one you intended. i fear you will have to elaborate on this .. you lost be (probably due to me not being an english native speaker( markus Gwynne: 'Briefs' is another word for underwear. Underpants. So debriefing Ivan.... From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Jul 10 06:27:32 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 05:27:32 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Zoom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gwynne: It was a lovely session, even at 5 am. And it was great to see everyone. Nice to feel connected. Thanks, Elizabeth, for organising it for us! From lbujold at myinfmail.com Sun Jul 10 06:39:52 2022 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 00:39:52 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Asian media recs mentioned at the Tea Party Message-ID: [LMB] Asian media recs mentioned at the Tea Party Harvey fishman at panix.com Sun Jul 10 02:30:02 BST 2022 Harvey:? I watched the first episode of _The Untamed_ on Amazon Prime and I am totally confused. ;-(( LMB:? Ayup.? That is a totally normal response.? It's Not You. It takes from 3 to 10 episodes, as others have variously attested, for it all to start to slot in and cross-connect. Or longer.? But the _second_ viewing, oh my word. Aside from all the unfamiliar mythology, magic, and genre tropes, the names, and the influx of unexplained characters, it is structurally challenging. It may help to know the the violent opening is a flashback-flashforward to the mid-story disaster, ending with Wei Wuxian the hero-to-be falling off that cliff.? Then there are about two episodes of what I dub the "frontstory", what will eventually be story-present, Wei Wuxian's unexpected (to him, certainly) resurrection in Mo Manor and the attendant shenanigans, then to the episode with the goddess statue and more people coming onstage; then it drops back and settles in to what will be a 33-episode... one can hardly call it a "flashback" when it's 3/5ths of the tale, but anyway, stretch that ends back at that opening scene, which plays _entirely_ differently when you finally know what's going on and who the hell all these people are. Wonderful cognitive effect. And then about episode 34 it returns to the frontstory soon after it was left off, and there to the end is solving the central mystery of all that.? (When I reached that point on my first viewing, I went back and reviewed the first two episodes for continuity, because it had been so long.? But one can do that with streaming or DVDs in a way that never would have been possible back in the days of broadcast TV.? It allows for much denser storytelling.? Or denser story-showing, in this case,) C'mon, you read science fiction, which frequently requires a reader to piece together an unfamiliar world on the fly as the story proceeds through it.? Same viewing protocols.? You can do it! Ta, L.? (And at least, while one is still being confused, there are some amazingly pretty things to watch.) From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Jul 10 06:40:57 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 05:40:57 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Margaret Dean On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 10:55 AM Eric Oppen wrote: > I wonder if the Haut have special dietary requirements? > Biologically, probably not (I'd think what is colloquially called a "cast-iron stomach" would be something to strive for, genetically), but cultural dietary restrictions or requirements are a possibility. --Margaret Dean Gwynne: I'm sure that the haut wife insists, in a very dignified way, on having a high standard of culinary art - it's not physically necessary, but the poor woman is probably still raw at being cut off from her home and family, and status, and life; so she's going to insist on every sign of status that she can get. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Jul 10 06:48:37 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 05:48:37 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 14 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca ...... Perhaps Gregor said, "Cetaganda - I've never been there! The funeral sounds like a perfect way for me to learn more about that society." and his entire array of advisors from the PM down blanched at the risk of letting their Emperor get into the hands of the Cetagandans. So they compromised on Miles and Ivan, with Gregor telling both of them he wanted a FULL recounting of what it was like. Maybe he figured that those two were the ones most likely to see behind the scenes and to be forgiven any trespasses. Alayne Gwynne: There's definitely a message being sent; to risk both heirs in the heart of the enemy is a huge statement of trust, at a time when treaty negotiations aren't going all that well; Gregor is showing a lot of trust. Mind you, sending Miles anywhere isn't exactly sending a vulnerable innocent into the lion's den; he'd have the lions lined up and doing tricks in no time - I wonder if the Cetagandans, on reflection, wonder if it wasn't an act of trust so much as an undeclared invasion. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 10:34:43 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 04:34:43 -0500 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: <8C29A33F-8F48-4CEB-9FCB-DEB2E06C9441@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 8:14 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Remember the bit in Pocahontas that said that, if you meet a bear in the > woods, put down your gun, walk up, and start playing with her cubs. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Katherine Collett > Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2022 1:40:20 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. > Perhaps that was Pocahontas way of getting rid of these foreign devils. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C7d5dd3e72b4d4c72ec7008da5f878eec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637927333110092961%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2FK1suI9fHGmRYwVjSSuBWuPvffGkUHhV9XtgYBBSlx0%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From elbju at yahoo.se Sun Jul 10 11:20:12 2022 From: elbju at yahoo.se (Elin B) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 10:20:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Asian media recs mentioned at the Tea Party In-Reply-To: <06e5bfa9-769c-8ae7-3962-fce901bcb710@myinfmail.com> References: <06e5bfa9-769c-8ae7-3962-fce901bcb710@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: <478725455.5591551.1657448412945@mail.yahoo.com> LMB wrote! >Right, so, to recap... > >I've been watching Japanese anime and reading manga for years, but have >only lately stumbled on to the much wider world of Asian media, now >widely available through streaming services.? I'll assume most Americans >have at least a passing familiarity with martial arts and Jackie Chan >movies from the prior generation, and the few big-budget films that have >made it across translation barriers starting with _Crouching Tiger, >Hidden Dragon_. > >_Way_ more is available now.? The first one I really came upon, through >a connection with someone talking about an anime I liked, was _The >Untamed_, 50-episode TV drama, which I have gone on about at length: > https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59420689-grandmaster-of-demonic-cultivation >so won't retype it all here. > >Most basic information for someone going into this new is that there are >(among others) two genres of Chinese fantasy, wuxia,"martial heroes", >martial arts stuff, sometimes with magic/supernatural elements and >sometimes not, and xainxia, "immortal heroes", more overtly fantasy, >focusing on Daoist magic and magicians (sometimes called "cultivators" >or "immortals", depending on the translations), gods (sometimes) and a >whole raft of Chinese historical folkloric traditions.? A quick check of >Daoism on Wikipedia will give you some idea of what this >now-well-developed modern genre is jumping off from, but not into.? "The >Untamed" is an example of xianxia. >Following up from _The Untamed_ is _Once Upon a Time in Lingjian >Mountain_, a cultivator _comedy_ TV-web series and send-up of all the >tropes taken seriously in _The Untamed_, which I figured, correctly, >would give me an immersion course in what are considered the standard >genre tropes and cliches.? Also, it's pretty funny. [snip] >Anybody got more recs in this arena? >Ta, L. Nirvana In Fire! With the uh rather important caveat that I'm not sure if the series is officially available in subtitle form by now on any platform (I would love it if it were - I would love it even more if there were subtitled DVDs I could buy!). But it's such a great series. I don't think it's strictly xianxia but it has a lot of such elements, it's more a historical drama with lots of court politics where the main plot is one man back from presumed death but with a changed face so nobody knows him, who counsels and plots and lays his plans in the imperial court while being secretly burning for vengeance and justice for those of his own who were betrayed and slain. Meanwhile we get to know everyone else, his allies and enemies and various others who are affected by events, including those who were close to and are mourning for the main character's former self. In the first couple of episodes you get pretty confused as to who is who, but that is normal and you'll soon settle into it and understand better as it all moves along.? It's smart and subtle and engaging and extremely pretty. And I particularly appreciate how many cool female characters there are, both skilled fighters and subtle manipulators!? Cheers, Elin Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From wawenri at msn.com Sun Jul 10 12:24:23 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 11:24:23 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Zoom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, a totally deserved thank you! William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2022 11:27:32 PM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] Zoom Gwynne: It was a lovely session, even at 5 am. And it was great to see everyone. Nice to feel connected. Thanks, Elizabeth, for organising it for us! -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cd8550035a67047abf7d908da6234eaa5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637930276653070207%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gwXP6nfsPXYHZz7B5wBhJdrlgOjBXgM%2ByPybY%2FwXRyw%3D&reserved=0 From huntkc at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 13:07:38 2022 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 08:07:38 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 1:17 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Margaret Dean > > As someone with a little background in anthropology (a few college courses > at least), I can't help noticing that whether or not Cetagandan society is > matriarchal, it is still patrilineal. The Emperor is always male, > apparently, and the office passes from father to son. I also notice that > even a haut wife takes her husband's surname, and so do their children. > It occurs to me to wonder how much the common Cetagandan on the street--an > ordinary citizen, not haut, ghem or ba--actually knows about the role of > the haut women in the power structure of their society. > --Margaret Dean > > Gwynne: Big hello to a fellow almost-anthropologist. I started training > for it, > but the need for money pushed me into teaching. I figured I was studying > wild tribes anyway. > > As for Cetaganda - it's definitely a matriarchy. The haut ladies allow the > ghem > to play their patriarchal games, it keeps the boys occupied. And they > really don't > care what the ghem do; the haut ladies keep track of all genomes in their > own > way, with their own files - and haut/ghem crosses are almost certainly > filed > under the haut woman's name. > Brief semi-aside... Picturing the conversations within ImpSec when Miles' and Ivan's reports come back. "Mostly we want to know when the ghem will start up another war." "But it looks like the haut ladies are tuning aggression up and down, thus controlling how often wars will happen." "Just right now it seems they're planning to start tuning it down, though" "For how long? And just think what happens when those ladies decide to cut loose." "hmmmmmmmmmmmmm" ...[long pause] "Ok, so we need to see what they're up to. How? I mean they live in Xanadu and hardly ever come out" "Haut Pel sometimes comes out, and she's on good terms with Miles" "You seriously thinking of sending him to the embassy for a posting there?!! I'm packing up and moving to Ylla if we try any such thing!" "hmmmmmmmmmmmmm" ...[another pause] "Well, ok, we can't reach the haut ladies with any reliability. Let's think wider." "Lady d'Har and other haut brides, if we can reach them." "Difficult, but put it on the list." "Wait! I know! The ba. They run errands outside their Garden all the time." And so it was that the Barrayaran embassy staffers began following ba around, learning which one worked for which haut Lady, and trying to make friends strategically among them, to the great merriment of the other embassies. Until it paid off... Karen From lbujold at myinfmail.com Sun Jul 10 15:50:53 2022 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 09:50:53 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Asian media recs mentioned at the Tea Party Message-ID: [LMB] Asian media recs mentioned at the Tea Party Elin B elbju at yahoo.se Sun Jul 10 11:20:12 BST 2022 LMB wrote! ?>Right, so, to recap... [snip] and recs for live-action TV series? _The Untamed_, _Hotel Del Luna_, and _Once Upon a Time in Lingjian Mountain_.) >Anybody got more recs in this arena? >Ta, L. Elin:? Nirvana In Fire! With the uh rather important caveat that I'm not sure if the series is officially available in subtitle form by now on any platform (I would love it if it were - I would love it even more if there were subtitled DVDs I could buy!). [snips] LMB:? _Nirvana in Fire_ remains available on viki.com? (Netflix tends to have better subtitling, but less Asian content.? Still more than I could ever watch, though.) On others' recs, I'd bought a rather expensive DVD set of it, but alas it would not play in my player.? Not region issues, some sort of mysterious high-def format issue. Have watched the first episode on viki -- very good production values, but seemed rather dark for my current viewing mood.? Also, my brain is not good for more than one long TV series with a large cast at a time, and I haven't finished _Hotel Del Luna_ or the more comic _Lingjian Mountain_ yet.? But it's in my sights, along with also much-recced _Word of Honor_. Also has caught my eye on viki, but not yet explored, is _The Sleuth of the Ming Dynasty_, which is supposed to be produced by Jackie Chan.? I don't care for modern crime drama, but costume crime drama in an unfamiliar (to me) setting might get past my inner gates at some more energetic point.? I do like Judge Dee stories, dating back to the old Robert Van Gulik novels. For those bemoaning the expense of streaming services, I would point out that you can buy several months' worth of hundreds of titles for the price of one DVD set.? And you don't have to warehouse the plastic, after.? Just add time... Ta, L. (I also stream Wondrium, the rebranded Great Courses streaming site, which also requires a certain mood/energy level to take advantage of.? But if bought by the year is only about ten bucks a month.? I have a ton of recs for it, too.) From c_muir68 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 10 16:09:09 2022 From: c_muir68 at hotmail.com (C.Muir) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 16:09:09 +0100 Subject: [LMB] the Vorkosigan Tea Party - Sat July 9 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks so much for organising the party and for putting this booklist up. I hadn't saved it.FYI I mentioned Gerald Darrell's The Mockery Bird which was an ecological comedy, very much of its time but still with a point to make. On 9 Jul 2022 22:14, Elizabeth Holden wrote: I really enjoyed our Tea Party - I suppose I should have noted the number of people there. Maybe next time I'll remember to do that. Anyway, we were a goodly number, including some people who haven't posted in a while, and Lois McMaster Bujold Herself. We talked about books, and full bookshelves, and how many of us sat in front of our books to use Zoom, and the state of our Bujold collections on and off Kindle. (Of course we all have Bujold collections. Goes without saying.) We talked more about books and shared recommendations. I will probably have errors with authors and titles here but people are welcome to correct me. We talked about Korean and Chinese TV and how readily available it is now. Recommendations: Hotel del Luna (which Lois is watching. The Untamed Nirvana In Fire Several of us heaped praise on the Horatio Hornblower series of novels by C.S. Forster, and the wonderful ITV TV series from 1998-2003; comparisons were made between Miles and Horatio (re; competence porn, I think, or at least highly intelligent and inventive heroes). Books: Tinker -Wen Spencer Exordium - I missed the author's name (and Amazon has many books of that title) The Phoenix Feather by Sherwood Smith (I think) The Hands of the Emperor by Victoria Goddard A Declaration of the Rights of Magicians by H.G. Parry (The Shadow Magicians, book 1) Nature's Last Hope by Doug Tallamy Mirabile by Janet Kagan Wolf Hunting (Firekeeper series) by Jane Lindskold The Dragoneer Academy series by E.E. Knight Tooth and Claw by Jo Walton Jane Austen's Dragons by Maria Grace anything by Jane Yolen anything by T Kingfisher (Ursula Vernon) with special mention of The Hamster Princess Red as Blood by Tanith Lee, also The Dragon Hoard Jayne Ann Castle's Harmony series The 10,000 Doors of January by Alix E. Harrow; also A Mirror Mended and The Once and Future Witches The Comfortable Courtesan by A.E. Hall Seduced by a Scot by Julia Landon Non-fiction: Because Internet: Understanding the New Rules of Language by Gretchen McCulloch Sex and the Scientist, the indecent life of Benjamin Thompson, Count Rumford by Jane Merrill namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to c_muir68 at hotmail.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Jul 10 17:29:43 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 16:29:43 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda Ch 14 Pt 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's all happening now. Miles, Pen and Nadina all load onto the float chair, bubble up, and head (a bit slowly) down the corridors to the right place; stopping to get Nadina did save them a lot of time. Miles looks at the door and wonders how to get in - knock? (This wasn't a serious suggestion, he was just beginning to formulate a strategy.) Pel knocks on the door. Sometimes simple works best. The door is answered by a sleep-deprived tech (I wonder if all the lower ranks like him will be in trouble too; after all he has no clue what's going on, he's just doing what he's told.) They think it's Vio, so Pel tells them she's brought Nadina to try again. But they think they're getting close to a result. Miles was planning to hit one tech with the spray, then grab the Key. But there's two techs and a general - not Chilian, but Naru; a general in the Celestial Garden's Imperial Security. Well that explains where the leak has been; Naru is third in command in Imperial Security. (And, interestingly, one tech is in Kety's livery, the other is in a military uniform. They've been grabbing everyone they can get to solve this.) They've tried over seven thousand combinations, and have the last seven hundred to go. Those poor guys have been living on coffee for days. There's seven copies of the Key there; what's Kety's scam with this? Giving fakes to the other Governors? The women are trying to identify the right Key. Pel actually has the ring from the Star Creche; those techs would kill her on the spot for that. Naru doesn't have any respect for Vio. Kety has been managing two very different partners here; I wonder if he's been honest with either of them. And Naru REALLY hates the Star Creche: "Being back in your bubble makes you proud again, I see. Enjoy it while it lasts. We'll have all of those damned bitches pried out of their little fortresses after this. Their days of being cloaked by the Emperor's blindness and stupidity are numbered..." Well he's definitely not on board with the plans from the old Empress. Miles doesn't want to use the stunner he took from the guard, but he'll have to try it and hope it doesn't set off an alarm. He tells Pel to use the spray on the general, he'll hit the techs, they grab all the keys, and get out. And of course it doesn't quite work. Naru holds his breath so the spray doesn't work on him. Miles drops the techs and half-hits Naru. Nadina grabs at the fake keys and tries to find the real one. Miles realises that the real key isn't among them, it's wired up to the comconsole. He grabs the real key as the door opens. Miles stuns the first man, he and Pel make it to the chair and get the bubble up. Nadina didn't make it and is grazed by a stunner blast - she tells Pel to get out, but there's too many men coming in. (Miles was right; the stunner blasts set off alarms somewhere.) Kety strolls in - busy being Mr Cool - and locks the door. He thinks he's won. He really doesn't know Miles. Naru manages to bring him up to date, despite being almost stunned. He's still complaining about the bubbles. Pel comments that before he's executed she'll ask the emperor to have his eyes put out. Ok, so that's a glimpse of the other side of the haut. But she does have pretty good reasons for her feelings right now. Miles knows that they got Nadina out of her bubble, so it's possible. And they can do it again. He and Pel aren't safe. He tells Pel it's time to signal for help. Kety puts a knife to Nadina's hair, then her throat. She was more worried about the hair. Kety wants them out of the bubble, NOW. So he and Pel are stuck in the float chair with all that secret information. Information.... hmmm.... And in a few moments he's got it organised, Pel gets the idea fast. It'll take a few minutes to download, but she can solve that. She sets it up, Miles knows the emergency communication codes - of course - and that secret information is going to be transmitted to every ship within range, and stored all over the place. Kety won't have the only Key any more - he'll lose his huge tactical advantage. Then she drops the force shield, she and Miles hop out of the chair - and the bubble closes again. Kety is slightly annoyed but not really bothered. He's surprised to see Miles, he'd assumed that Ivan was the brains of the operation, Miles was the underling - because that's how Kety works, sitting in the background and sending other people out to do the work for him. And usually dying after that. He's about to land a few punches on Miles when he remembers that Miles is too breakable, so he orders a guard to hit all three prisoners with a shock-stick. The man just can't hit the haut ladies (is it Haut or Ladies that stops him? Or both?) so he hits Miles three times instead. Miles doesn't enjoy that, and ends up curled in a ball on the floor. Kety gets back to business; the techs can get the bubble open in half an hour, once they're conscious. But before they can do anything about that he gets a message; the emergency channels have been activated, and there's a huge data dump going on. Into every ship in the area. And it's coming from their ship. The data has an Imperial over-ride. Kety gets it. And he is SO not happy. They can't get the techs awake, so Kety and Naru start working on getting the bubble open. Pel looks like she's enjoying the moment. Miles stays on the floor; he doesn't want any more attention. And that's why Miles is the first one to see the glowing spot on the door, just before it blasts open. And Ghem-Colonel Benin, immaculate as usual, strolls in. Unarmed. And having the best moment of his career. He has no weapons, but he does have a LOT of very weapony men who have no trouble getting all the bad guys under control. Nobody resists. Benin happily arrests Kety and Naru by the personal order of the Emperor. For treason. AND for complicity in the murder of the Ba Lura. HA Naru, take that; he dumped the investigation on Benin, intending to trash his career. And Benin has solved the case brilliantly (ok, with a teeny bit of Barrayaran help.) From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 17:34:17 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 12:34:17 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Japan parallels in the Vorkosiverse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 11:55 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > In a lot of ways, Barrayar is like Meiji-period Japan. C... > > Meanwhile, Cetaganda reminds me of stuff I've read about Heian-era Japan, > much, much earlier. ... > Fascinating. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Jul 10 17:45:08 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 16:45:08 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda Ch 14 Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I feel sorry for those techs; they probably don't know they're committing treason (or didn't know when they started), and how do you say no to Kety? And how can you get away, you're stuck on his ship. In some cases, 'I was only obeying orders' is a fair defence, especially when the orders aren't obviously wrong. When you have a governor and a general telling you to do something, you do it. Kety's been very good at finding what people want, and making them believe he can deliver: Vio wants her bubble back, her status, and the role of Empress. Naru wants no more bubbles and the haut women to lose power. And Kety's made both of them think they're going to get what they want. I think if he has to drop one of them it'll be Vio, she's already played her part. Naru has ongoing military value. Spare a thought for how much Ivan did, and how fast. Miles left the star creche while Ivan was still unconscious. He and Pel went straight to Kety, took a quick car to the shuttle port, shuttle to his ship, found Nadina, got to the right room, stunned the techs, grabbed the Key, took a few minutes to set it to transmit, out of the bubble, shock stick.... it doesn't add up to a lot of time. In the same time Ivan woke up from a combination of paralysis drug and stunner blast, (he can't have felt well at that stage), found out about Miles, got free of the Star Creche ladies, got through the Celestial Garden to Benin (and just imagine a junior Barryaran officer demanding to see an Imperial Security officer, refusing to speak to anyone else). Then explaining it all to Benin, then Benin had to get a warrant directly from the Emperor, then they had to get their squad and get to the shuttle port, to the ship, onto Kety's ship without Kety being warned, find the right place and break in. That's a LOT to get done in a short time. With no authority, and being from a planet the Cetagandans distrust. Don't you get the feeling that Pel is having a great time! From rgmolpus at flash.net Sun Jul 10 18:13:49 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 17:13:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda Ch 14 Pt 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1379625372.333882.1657473229098@mail.yahoo.com> This is the point where Miles, if he had any sense (Ivan would - and did!) would have called Dag and told him (at least) "There's been a break in the case, get ready to move once you get word". But that isn't what an action hero does... On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 11:30:02 AM CDT, Gwynne Powell wrote: It's all happening now. Miles, Pen and Nadina all load onto the float chair, bubble up, and head (a bit slowly) down the corridors to the right place; stopping to get Nadina did save them a lot of time. Miles looks at the door and wonders how to get in - knock? (This wasn't a serious suggestion, he was just beginning to formulate a strategy.) Pel knocks on the door. Sometimes simple works best. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 19:49:09 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 13:49:09 -0500 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: <8C29A33F-8F48-4CEB-9FCB-DEB2E06C9441@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: In his old 'zine, *Murder Can be Fun,* John Marr wrote about how zoos had a constant problem keeping their visitors away from the animals. People would insist on wanting to pet the nice bear or get into the cage with the pretty big cat, thinking that it wouldn't harm them. And hilarity would ensue. I blame a lot of this on entertainment. Shows like *Gentle Ben, *children's stuff featuring anthropomorphic animals (with the clever prey animals always outwitting their stupid predator pursuers), stuff like that. On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 4:35 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 8:14 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > > Remember the bit in Pocahontas that said that, if you meet a bear in the > > woods, put down your gun, walk up, and start playing with her cubs. > > > > William A Wenrich > > > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > > Katherine Collett > > Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2022 1:40:20 PM > > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. > > > Perhaps that was Pocahontas way of getting rid of these foreign > devils. > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C7d5dd3e72b4d4c72ec7008da5f878eec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637927333110092961%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2FK1suI9fHGmRYwVjSSuBWuPvffGkUHhV9XtgYBBSlx0%3D&reserved=0 > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 19:52:18 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 13:52:18 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 14 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Would they let Gregor travel out of the Empire at all? Even to friendly places like Vervain? On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 12:48 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > ...... > Perhaps Gregor said, "Cetaganda - I've never been there! The funeral > sounds like a perfect way for me to learn more about that society." and > his entire array of advisors from the PM down blanched at the risk of > letting their Emperor get into the hands of the Cetagandans. > So they compromised on Miles and Ivan, with Gregor telling both of them he > wanted a FULL recounting of what it was like. > Maybe he figured that those two were the ones most likely to see behind > the scenes and to be forgiven any trespasses. > Alayne > > Gwynne: There's definitely a message being sent; to risk both heirs in the > heart > of the enemy is a huge statement of trust, at a time when treaty > negotiations > aren't going all that well; Gregor is showing a lot of trust. Mind you, > sending > Miles anywhere isn't exactly sending a vulnerable innocent into the lion's > den; > he'd have the lions lined up and doing tricks in no time - I wonder if the > Cetagandans, on reflection, wonder if it wasn't an act of trust so much as > an > undeclared invasion. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 19:57:28 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 13:57:28 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can picture the one left at my door reacting to my (lack of) housekeeping: "I find your slovenly lifestyle...disturbing!" While holding me up in the air by my throat with one hand. Then she notices that a great deal of the mess is books (I really, really, could use more shelf space!), says "Ooooh! I haven't seen these!" grabs a hefty armload, appropriates my favorite easy chair, and settles in. Over the top of the book. she fixes me with a glittering eye (Alys Vorpatril would admire her style) and I snap-to and get busy cleaning, rearranging, and putting things in order like I'm on speed. On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 12:41 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Margaret Dean > > On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 10:55 AM Eric Oppen > wrote: > > I wonder if the Haut have special dietary requirements? > > > > Biologically, probably not (I'd think what is colloquially called a > "cast-iron stomach" would be something to strive for, genetically), but > cultural dietary restrictions or requirements are a possibility. > --Margaret Dean > > Gwynne: I'm sure that the haut wife insists, in a very dignified way, on > having a high standard of culinary art - it's not physically necessary, > but the > poor woman is probably still raw at being cut off from her home and family, > and status, and life; so she's going to insist on every sign of status > that she > can get. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From margdean56 at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 21:56:19 2022 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 14:56:19 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 11:41 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Margaret Dean > > On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 10:55 AM Eric Oppen > wrote: > > I wonder if the Haut have special dietary requirements? > > > > Biologically, probably not (I'd think what is colloquially called a > "cast-iron stomach" would be something to strive for, genetically), but > cultural dietary restrictions or requirements are a possibility. > --Margaret Dean > > Gwynne: I'm sure that the haut wife insists, in a very dignified way, on > having a high standard of culinary art - it's not physically necessary, > but the > poor woman is probably still raw at being cut off from her home and family, > and status, and life; so she's going to insist on every sign of status > that she > can get. > She may also have heightened senses like the Jewels in CVA, making her way more comfortable (at least) with well-to-superbly-performed cooking. --Margaret Dean From alzurite at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 23:55:35 2022 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 18:55:35 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Asian media recs mentioned at the Tea Party Message-ID: Elin said: > Nirvana In Fire! With the uh rather important caveat that I'm not sure if the > series is officially available in subtitle form by now on any platform The subtitled version is still available on Rakuten Viki. I just checked. It might not be completely free - but I find that the small amount I pay for a basic VIki account is well worth it. (Something like $5 per month CDN.) Worth it for Nirvana in Fire alone, and there is lots of other good stuff. > (I would love it if it were - I would love it even more if there were subtitled DVDs I > could buy!). I would get it for sure. Elin recaps the plot: > a historical drama with lots of court politics where the main plot is one man back from presumed death but with a changed face so nobody knows him, > who counsels and plots and lays his plans in the imperial court while being secretly burning for vengeance and justice for those of his own who were > betrayed and slain. Meanwhile we get to know everyone else, his allies and enemies and various others who are affected by events Another super-competent, plot-weaving hero who is manipulating events all around him and lying to those closest to him about who he is. Also tormented by -- no, that might be a spoiler. Huge amounts of plot and character and it's all lavishly beautiful. Elin: > In the first couple of episodes you get pretty confused as to who is who, but that is normal and you'll soon settle into it and understand better as it all moves along. Since I totally fell in love with the show quickly, but couldn't remember all the Chinese names -- and there are many characters, all of whom have many names each -- I took notes. There are also easy-to-find web pages with character lists (and pictures of faces). Even more complicated, most of the characters are related to other characters in various complicated ways, many of them relatives of the Emperor and his very extended family. I suspect I would have understood the story anyway but it was nice to be sure about it. I would even go so far as to say it seemed Bujoldian to me, with the intelligent yet tormented hero and the complex political events centred around the Imperial Court. LMB wrote: >Right, so, to recap... > >I've been watching Japanese anime and reading manga for years, I love manga but never feel quite the afinity for anime that I would like to have, except maybe for Cowboy Bebop, which I adore. Anime recommendations would be welcome. My entry-level manga were "The Rose of Versailles" and "From Eroica With Love". > but have >only lately stumbled on to the much wider world of Asian media, now >widely available through streaming services. It has opened up the world! > I'll assume most Americans >have at least a passing familiarity with martial arts and Jackie Chan >movies from the prior generation, and the few big-budget films that have >made it across translation barriers starting with _Crouching Tiger, >Hidden Dragon_. "Hero" was my favourite of that style of Chinese movies. I love the lavishness of them. My first favourite Chinese movies were the ones by Bruce Lee. "Enter the Dragon" was the first DVD I ever bought. >_Way_ more is available now. The first one I really came upon, through >a connection with someone talking about an anime I liked, was _The >Untamed_, 50-episode TV drama, which I have gone on about at length: > https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59420689-grandmaster-of-demonic-cultivation >so won't retype it all here. It's fabulous. [snip] >Anybody got more recs in this arena? I liked "Word of Honor" also. namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From alzurite at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 00:12:36 2022 From: alzurite at gmail.com (Elizabeth Holden) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 19:12:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Asian media recs mentioned at the Tea Party (The Untamed) Message-ID: Harvey said: > I watched the first episode of _The Untamed_ on Amazon Prime > and I am totally confused. ;-(( Yup. Don't let it get to you. In the beginning it is particularly time-twisty and complicated. > LMB: Ayup. That is a totally normal response. It's Not You. It takes > from 3 to 10 episodes, as others have variously attested, for it all to > start to slot in and cross-connect. I think my friends made me start watching at a later episode - #3 maybe? - and then went back to the beginning. so I saw the plot progress in a more linear fashion. For some degrees of "linear". I really don't think it made all that much difference. Just go with the flow. It did help that I was watching it with friends who had already seen it. They avoided spoilers masterfully but were good at saying "you'll understand this later" or "you haven't seen this character before". I don't think this was strictly necessary, but it was helpful. > Or longer. But the _second_ viewing, oh my word. I believe that all the best books and movies need multiple viewings to really come clear. > Aside from all the unfamiliar mythology, magic, and genre tropes, the > names, and the influx of unexplained characters, it is structurally > challenging. Everyone has numerous names, used in different ways, and sometimes aliases. Plus interconnections and relationships. One method of self-defense is to give everyone nicknames (e.g., Dimple Boy, Fan Boy, Sweet Sister, Mean Uncle, and so on.) It is probably a good idea to memorize the names of Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji early on, but that's easy, because they are central. Then... it's also important to know who belongs to which Sect, but that's easy too, as they are all colour-coded by costuming. > It may help to know the the violent opening is a flashback-flashforward > to the mid-story disaster, ending with Wei Wuxian the hero-to-be falling > off that cliff. Which besides being utterly confusing is incredibly dramatic. > one can hardly call it a "flashback" when it's > 3/5ths of the tale, but anyway, stretch that ends back at that opening > scene, which plays _entirely_ differently when you finally know what's > going on and who the hell all these people are. Wonderful cognitive effect. You know, you're making me want to watch it all over again. Lois muses about streaming and DVDS and rewatching things: > It allows >for much denser storytelling. Or denser story-showing, in this case,) Absolutely. And you can pick which parts to go back to reconsider. It's sort of like reading books. > C'mon, you read science fiction, which frequently requires a reader to > piece together an unfamiliar world on the fly as the story proceeds > through it. Same viewing protocols. You can do it! I bet most of us have read (or watched) more dense and complex stories, many of them with less ultimate reward. > Ta, L. (And at least, while one is still being confused, there are some > amazingly pretty things to watch.) Good point. When in doubt, sit back and enjoy the visuals. (Beautiful landscapes, beautiful buildings with beautiful furnishings, beautiful people.) namaste, Elizabeth Elizabeth Holden From sturmvogel66 at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 01:26:50 2022 From: sturmvogel66 at gmail.com (Jason Long) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 20:26:50 -0400 Subject: [LMB] the Vorkosigan Tea Party - Sat July 9 In-Reply-To: <2A361177-D6D3-47A1-8AAD-6EA8EAC266B0@brazee.net> References: <02f101d893ff$32e76a40$98b63ec0$@charter.net> <2A361177-D6D3-47A1-8AAD-6EA8EAC266B0@brazee.net> Message-ID: I enjoyed the Robins books, I wouldn't mind seeing more. On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 9:55 PM Howard Brazee wrote: > > > > On Jul 9, 2022, at 7:48 PM, Jean Lamb wrote: > > > > So glad I was able to go this time! The books I mentioned for when your > > brain feels fluffy were the Clorinda books by L. A. Hall, starting with > The > > Comfortable Courtesan. > > I?ve read two books with a different ?fallen woman?, the A Sarah Tolerance > Mysteries by Madeleine E. Robins. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to sturmvogel66 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From fishman at panix.com Mon Jul 11 01:39:45 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 00:39:45 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Asian media recs mentioned at the Tea Party (The Untamed) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the encouragement. I have gotten through the second episode and it was not much better. It is WONDERFUL photography though. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ >From "Elizabeth Holden" To "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Date 7/10/2022 7:12:36 PM Subject [LMB] Asian media recs mentioned at the Tea Party (The Untamed) >Harvey said: > >>I watched the first episode of _The Untamed_ on Amazon Prime >>and I am totally confused. ;-(( > >Yup. Don't let it get to you. In the beginning it is particularly >time-twisty and complicated. > >>LMB: Ayup. That is a totally normal response. It's Not You. It takes >>from 3 to 10 episodes, as others have variously attested, for it all to >>start to slot in and cross-connect. > >I think my friends made me start watching at a later episode - #3 maybe? - >and then went back to the beginning. so I saw the plot progress in a more >linear fashion. For some degrees of "linear". I really don't think it made >all that much difference. Just go with the flow. > >It did help that I was watching it with friends who had already seen it. >They avoided spoilers masterfully but were good at saying "you'll >understand this later" or "you haven't seen this character before". I don't >think this was strictly necessary, but it was helpful. > >>Or longer. But the _second_ viewing, oh my word. > >I believe that all the best books and movies need multiple viewings to >really come clear. > >>Aside from all the unfamiliar mythology, magic, and genre tropes, the >>names, and the influx of unexplained characters, it is structurally >>challenging. > >Everyone has numerous names, used in different ways, and sometimes aliases. >Plus interconnections and relationships. One method of self-defense is to >give everyone nicknames (e.g., Dimple Boy, Fan Boy, Sweet Sister, Mean >Uncle, and so on.) > >It is probably a good idea to memorize the names of Wei Wuxian and Lan >Wangji early on, but that's easy, because they are central. Then... it's >also important to know who belongs to which Sect, but that's easy too, as >they are all colour-coded by costuming. > >>It may help to know the the violent opening is a flashback-flashforward >>to the mid-story disaster, ending with Wei Wuxian the hero-to-be falling >>off that cliff. > >Which besides being utterly confusing is incredibly dramatic. > >>one can hardly call it a "flashback" when it's >>3/5ths of the tale, but anyway, stretch that ends back at that opening >>scene, which plays _entirely_ differently when you finally know what's >>going on and who the hell all these people are. Wonderful cognitive >effect. > >You know, you're making me want to watch it all over again. > >Lois muses about streaming and DVDS and rewatching things: >> It allows >>for much denser storytelling. Or denser story-showing, in this case,) > >Absolutely. And you can pick which parts to go back to reconsider. It's >sort of like reading books. > >>C'mon, you read science fiction, which frequently requires a reader to >>piece together an unfamiliar world on the fly as the story proceeds >>through it. Same viewing protocols. You can do it! > >I bet most of us have read (or watched) more dense and complex stories, >many of them with less ultimate reward. > >>Ta, L. (And at least, while one is still being confused, there are some >>amazingly pretty things to watch.) > >Good point. When in doubt, sit back and enjoy the visuals. (Beautiful >landscapes, beautiful buildings with beautiful furnishings, beautiful >people.) > >namaste, >Elizabeth > >Elizabeth Holden >-- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From kcollett at hamilton.edu Mon Jul 11 02:58:38 2022 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Katherine Collett) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 21:58:38 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party book list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DBC0E3F-1B5A-4794-A720-35C859FC0B39@hamilton.edu> One more book that someone mentioned was Earthgrip, by Harry Turtledove. Looks interesting .... Katherine From fishman at panix.com Mon Jul 11 03:11:48 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 02:11:48 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party book list In-Reply-To: <4DBC0E3F-1B5A-4794-A720-35C859FC0B39@hamilton.edu> References: <4DBC0E3F-1B5A-4794-A720-35C859FC0B39@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: Right now I am rereading James H. Schmitz. I read the latest _Witches of Karres_ knockoff and I was less than happy. So I went back and reread the original (WONDERFUL) and then I figured to reread the rest of his oeuvre and it is also wonderful. I finished _Agent of Vega_ and _Telzey Amberdon_ and I am currently reading _Telzey and Trigger_. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ >From "Katherine Collett" To "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Date 7/10/2022 9:58:38 PM Subject Re: [LMB] Vorkosigan Tea Party book list >One more book that someone mentioned was Earthgrip, by Harry Turtledove. Looks interesting .... > >Katherine > >-- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From lbujold at myinfmail.com Mon Jul 11 04:00:47 2022 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 22:00:47 -0500 Subject: [LMB] anime and manga recs Message-ID: <066ff732-91f9-2e07-66e7-d755566e8582@myinfmail.com> Somewhere upthread that I've lost track of, someone asked for anime and manga recs.? Many of these are on streaming service Crunchyroll, some I have on older discs and may be harder to find. I actually like only a narrow slice of the genres.? I overdosed early on giant fighting robots (also called "mecha"), excessively saccharine young-girly stuff (shojo) and excessively violent boy-stuff (shonen).? I don't care for ultra-violence or horror, tho' interesting historical-cultural horror sometimes gets as pass.? I like much yokai (Japanese folkloric supernatural creatures.)? Some anime hits for me... Samurai Champloo -- I don't like a lot of sword-glorification drama, but the satirical edge and characters in this one worked for me. Midnight Occult Civil Servants -- modern world people dealing with supernatural beings.? And bureaucracy. The Morose Mononokean -- Mysterious young man tasked with exorcising misplaced yokai back to their own world. Natsumi's Book of Friends -- both anime and parent manga very good.? One of the best of the "young person sees things no one else can" overpopulated trope. Zombie Land SAGA -- I dislike the zombie genre, and I don't much care for idol (Japanese boy- or girl- rock-band/pop star) tales. Why the insane _combination_ works so well... Pandora Hearts -- prefer the manga.? The anime starts by following it, but diverts to a false ending at the end of season 2 which is NOT where the story is going.?? Bewildering plot/worldbuilding/ending, great characters. Saiyuki -- very gonzo retelling of _The Journey to the West_.? Go with the manga on this one as well (recently repubbed as an emanga), but the anime is OK to dip into to sample -- early and poor visual production values (tho' very good Japanese voice acting), too many filler episodes.? Again, characters that grow on one, but it takes into the second part, Saiyuki Reload, to get to the best bits. Bleach -- shonen classic.? Ginormous and uneven.? Characters haunt one's head anyway. Elegant Yokai Apartment Life -- charming. Noragami -- down-on-his-luck Japanese god tries to make his way in the modern world. Junjo Romantica and side-sequel Sekai Ichi Hatsukoi.? --? Early entry in the boy's love (non-explicit -- well, mostly -- m/m romance) so may have some tropes that are not well-received anymore.? The second one is set in a manga publishing company of the 90s and is full of writing and publishing jokes, not to mention education, that I appreciated. Hozuki's Coolheadedness.? Adventures of the demon who is chief operating officer of the traditional Japanese hell.? Funny, sly, also full of cultural education.? Speaking of which... Folktales From Japan -- charming children' series with 3 short folk stories per half-hour episode.? Fills one in painlessly on a lot of common cultural references that pop up elsewhere.? (For example, in Hozuki.) Natsuyuki Rendezvous -- young man who falls in love with the widowed owner of a flower shop finds his suit impeded by the ghost of her late husband. Mononoke. -- (Not to be confused with also-excellent feature movie Princess Mononoke.)? Mysterious medicine seller solves supernatural crimes.? Incredibly stylish, probably owes much to kabuki theater.? NOT for children. Kamisama Kiss -- high school girl evicted from her home does a favor for a disguised local god, and is granted his derelict shrine, his powers -- and its supernatural servants.? Hijinks ensue. Mushi-shi -- still my fave anime of all time.? Troubles caused by mysterious sub-life creatures dubbed "mushi" are solved by itinerant medicine seller and mushi naturalist/proto-scientist Ginko.? The episodes are episodic rather than following a story arc, so getting the seasons out of order won't hurt much, but better to start with season 1 if you can find it.? But if you can't, start with 2. ? Ginko is a much kinder medicine seller than the nameless... person, in Mononoke. Shonen Onmyoji -- young grandson of Abe no Seimei (famous real Heian-period court magician/astrologer) has magical adventures in period Kyoto. Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation -- classy but compressed/abridged animated version of The Untamed.? Do NOT attempt to watch them together, the many differences between the versions will make it all even more confusing.? (And it gives too short a shrift to my favorite character from the live-action.? But that's just me.)? Probably closer to the parent novel in some sections, but I won't know till the other 3/5 of the latter comes out in English. And that's enough for now. Ta, L. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 05:40:48 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 23:40:48 -0500 Subject: [LMB] anime and manga recs In-Reply-To: <066ff732-91f9-2e07-66e7-d755566e8582@myinfmail.com> References: <066ff732-91f9-2e07-66e7-d755566e8582@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: I'm not much into manga or anime, but some that I like include the adaptation of* Battle Royale *(ultraviolent, not for the squeamish!), *Black Lagoon* (again, violent!) and *Girls und Panzer* (sports involving tanks). I've also enjoyed *Vagabond* (the life of Miyamoto Musashi; fairly authentic AFAICT), *Vinland Saga* (Vikings; I wish my father could have lived longer so I could have shown it to him---he was a Viking/Old Norse buff) and a few others. As you may have noticed, I take a darker view of life than most people. On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 10:01 PM Lois Bujold wrote: > Somewhere upthread that I've lost track of, someone asked for anime and > manga recs. Many of these are on streaming service Crunchyroll, some I > have on older discs and may be harder to find. > > I actually like only a narrow slice of the genres. I overdosed early on > giant fighting robots (also called "mecha"), excessively saccharine > young-girly stuff (shojo) and excessively violent boy-stuff (shonen). I > don't care for ultra-violence or horror, tho' interesting > historical-cultural horror sometimes gets as pass. I like much yokai > (Japanese folkloric supernatural creatures.) Some anime hits for me... > > Samurai Champloo -- I don't like a lot of sword-glorification drama, but > the satirical edge and characters in this one worked for me. > > Midnight Occult Civil Servants -- modern world people dealing with > supernatural beings. And bureaucracy. > > The Morose Mononokean -- Mysterious young man tasked with exorcising > misplaced yokai back to their own world. > > Natsumi's Book of Friends -- both anime and parent manga very good. One > of the best of the "young person sees things no one else can" > overpopulated trope. > > Zombie Land SAGA -- I dislike the zombie genre, and I don't much care > for idol (Japanese boy- or girl- rock-band/pop star) tales. Why the > insane _combination_ works so well... > > Pandora Hearts -- prefer the manga. The anime starts by following it, > but diverts to a false ending at the end of season 2 which is NOT where > the story is going. Bewildering plot/worldbuilding/ending, great > characters. > > Saiyuki -- very gonzo retelling of _The Journey to the West_. Go with > the manga on this one as well (recently repubbed as an emanga), but the > anime is OK to dip into to sample -- early and poor visual production > values (tho' very good Japanese voice acting), too many filler > episodes. Again, characters that grow on one, but it takes into the > second part, Saiyuki Reload, to get to the best bits. > > Bleach -- shonen classic. Ginormous and uneven. Characters haunt one's > head anyway. > > Elegant Yokai Apartment Life -- charming. > > Noragami -- down-on-his-luck Japanese god tries to make his way in the > modern world. > > Junjo Romantica and side-sequel Sekai Ichi Hatsukoi. -- Early entry in > the boy's love (non-explicit -- well, mostly -- m/m romance) so may have > some tropes that are not well-received anymore. The second one is set > in a manga publishing company of the 90s and is full of writing and > publishing jokes, not to mention education, that I appreciated. > > Hozuki's Coolheadedness. Adventures of the demon who is chief operating > officer of the traditional Japanese hell. Funny, sly, also full of > cultural education. Speaking of which... > > Folktales From Japan -- charming children' series with 3 short folk > stories per half-hour episode. Fills one in painlessly on a lot of > common cultural references that pop up elsewhere. (For example, in > Hozuki.) > > Natsuyuki Rendezvous -- young man who falls in love with the widowed > owner of a flower shop finds his suit impeded by the ghost of her late > husband. > > Mononoke. -- (Not to be confused with also-excellent feature movie > Princess Mononoke.) Mysterious medicine seller solves supernatural > crimes. Incredibly stylish, probably owes much to kabuki theater. NOT > for children. > > Kamisama Kiss -- high school girl evicted from her home does a favor for > a disguised local god, and is granted his derelict shrine, his powers -- > and its supernatural servants. Hijinks ensue. > > Mushi-shi -- still my fave anime of all time. Troubles caused by > mysterious sub-life creatures dubbed "mushi" are solved by itinerant > medicine seller and mushi naturalist/proto-scientist Ginko. The > episodes are episodic rather than following a story arc, so getting the > seasons out of order won't hurt much, but better to start with season 1 > if you can find it. But if you can't, start with 2. Ginko is a much > kinder medicine seller than the nameless... person, in Mononoke. > > Shonen Onmyoji -- young grandson of Abe no Seimei (famous real > Heian-period court magician/astrologer) has magical adventures in period > Kyoto. > > Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation -- classy but compressed/abridged > animated version of The Untamed. Do NOT attempt to watch them together, > the many differences between the versions will make it all even more > confusing. (And it gives too short a shrift to my favorite character > from the live-action. But that's just me.) Probably closer to the > parent novel in some sections, but I won't know till the other 3/5 of > the latter comes out in English. > > And that's enough for now. > > Ta, L. > > > > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From saffronrose at me.com Mon Jul 11 06:20:46 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 22:20:46 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: New Kerry Greenwood and Sulari Gentill books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 9, 2022, at 3:49 PM, alayne--- via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > as well, there's finally an American publication of the tenth Rowland Sinclair novel by fellow Australian Sulari Gentill, _Where There's a Will_ -- this one set in the U.S. As Bookbub doesn?t list this title, in the US, it might have been released as A Testament of Character which seems to have the same story A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Mon Jul 11 06:32:13 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 22:32:13 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 8, 2022, at 11:37 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > ?This is silly, but when I saw the title of this thread, I had a vision of > opening my door in the morning to find a Haut Lady curled up in a basket on > my front stoop, with a note pinned to her robe saying "Please take me in!" But it?s the right kind of silly! Marina From mathews55 at msn.com Mon Jul 11 17:42:25 2022 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 16:42:25 +0000 Subject: [LMB] anime and manga recs In-Reply-To: References: <066ff732-91f9-2e07-66e7-d755566e8582@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: Vinland Saga was issued as anume?!?!? ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Eric Oppen Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2022 10:40 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] anime and manga recs I'm not much into manga or anime, but some that I like include the adaptation of* Battle Royale *(ultraviolent, not for the squeamish!), *Black Lagoon* (again, violent!) and *Girls und Panzer* (sports involving tanks). I've also enjoyed *Vagabond* (the life of Miyamoto Musashi; fairly authentic AFAICT), *Vinland Saga* (Vikings; I wish my father could have lived longer so I could have shown it to him---he was a Viking/Old Norse buff) and a few others. As you may have noticed, I take a darker view of life than most people. On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 10:01 PM Lois Bujold wrote: > Somewhere upthread that I've lost track of, someone asked for anime and > manga recs. Many of these are on streaming service Crunchyroll, some I > have on older discs and may be harder to find. > > I actually like only a narrow slice of the genres. I overdosed early on > giant fighting robots (also called "mecha"), excessively saccharine > young-girly stuff (shojo) and excessively violent boy-stuff (shonen). I > don't care for ultra-violence or horror, tho' interesting > historical-cultural horror sometimes gets as pass. I like much yokai > (Japanese folkloric supernatural creatures.) Some anime hits for me... > > Samurai Champloo -- I don't like a lot of sword-glorification drama, but > the satirical edge and characters in this one worked for me. > > Midnight Occult Civil Servants -- modern world people dealing with > supernatural beings. And bureaucracy. > > The Morose Mononokean -- Mysterious young man tasked with exorcising > misplaced yokai back to their own world. > > Natsumi's Book of Friends -- both anime and parent manga very good. One > of the best of the "young person sees things no one else can" > overpopulated trope. > > Zombie Land SAGA -- I dislike the zombie genre, and I don't much care > for idol (Japanese boy- or girl- rock-band/pop star) tales. Why the > insane _combination_ works so well... > > Pandora Hearts -- prefer the manga. The anime starts by following it, > but diverts to a false ending at the end of season 2 which is NOT where > the story is going. Bewildering plot/worldbuilding/ending, great > characters. > > Saiyuki -- very gonzo retelling of _The Journey to the West_. Go with > the manga on this one as well (recently repubbed as an emanga), but the > anime is OK to dip into to sample -- early and poor visual production > values (tho' very good Japanese voice acting), too many filler > episodes. Again, characters that grow on one, but it takes into the > second part, Saiyuki Reload, to get to the best bits. > > Bleach -- shonen classic. Ginormous and uneven. Characters haunt one's > head anyway. > > Elegant Yokai Apartment Life -- charming. > > Noragami -- down-on-his-luck Japanese god tries to make his way in the > modern world. > > Junjo Romantica and side-sequel Sekai Ichi Hatsukoi. -- Early entry in > the boy's love (non-explicit -- well, mostly -- m/m romance) so may have > some tropes that are not well-received anymore. The second one is set > in a manga publishing company of the 90s and is full of writing and > publishing jokes, not to mention education, that I appreciated. > > Hozuki's Coolheadedness. Adventures of the demon who is chief operating > officer of the traditional Japanese hell. Funny, sly, also full of > cultural education. Speaking of which... > > Folktales From Japan -- charming children' series with 3 short folk > stories per half-hour episode. Fills one in painlessly on a lot of > common cultural references that pop up elsewhere. (For example, in > Hozuki.) > > Natsuyuki Rendezvous -- young man who falls in love with the widowed > owner of a flower shop finds his suit impeded by the ghost of her late > husband. > > Mononoke. -- (Not to be confused with also-excellent feature movie > Princess Mononoke.) Mysterious medicine seller solves supernatural > crimes. Incredibly stylish, probably owes much to kabuki theater. NOT > for children. > > Kamisama Kiss -- high school girl evicted from her home does a favor for > a disguised local god, and is granted his derelict shrine, his powers -- > and its supernatural servants. Hijinks ensue. > > Mushi-shi -- still my fave anime of all time. Troubles caused by > mysterious sub-life creatures dubbed "mushi" are solved by itinerant > medicine seller and mushi naturalist/proto-scientist Ginko. The > episodes are episodic rather than following a story arc, so getting the > seasons out of order won't hurt much, but better to start with season 1 > if you can find it. But if you can't, start with 2. Ginko is a much > kinder medicine seller than the nameless... person, in Mononoke. > > Shonen Onmyoji -- young grandson of Abe no Seimei (famous real > Heian-period court magician/astrologer) has magical adventures in period > Kyoto. > > Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation -- classy but compressed/abridged > animated version of The Untamed. Do NOT attempt to watch them together, > the many differences between the versions will make it all even more > confusing. (And it gives too short a shrift to my favorite character > from the live-action. But that's just me.) Probably closer to the > parent novel in some sections, but I won't know till the other 3/5 of > the latter comes out in English. > > And that's enough for now. > > Ta, L. > > > > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 18:05:26 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 12:05:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] anime and manga recs In-Reply-To: References: <066ff732-91f9-2e07-66e7-d755566e8582@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: No, it's a manga. On Mon, Jul 11, 2022 at 11:42 AM Pat Mathews wrote: > Vinland Saga was issued as anume?!?!? > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Eric Oppen > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2022 10:40 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [LMB] anime and manga recs > > I'm not much into manga or anime, but some that I like include the > adaptation of* Battle Royale *(ultraviolent, not for the squeamish!), > *Black > Lagoon* (again, violent!) and *Girls und Panzer* (sports involving tanks). > I've also enjoyed *Vagabond* (the life of Miyamoto Musashi; fairly > authentic AFAICT), *Vinland Saga* (Vikings; I wish my father could have > lived longer so I could have shown it to him---he was a Viking/Old Norse > buff) and a few others. > > As you may have noticed, I take a darker view of life than most people. > > On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 10:01 PM Lois Bujold > wrote: > > > Somewhere upthread that I've lost track of, someone asked for anime and > > manga recs. Many of these are on streaming service Crunchyroll, some I > > have on older discs and may be harder to find. > > > > I actually like only a narrow slice of the genres. I overdosed early on > > giant fighting robots (also called "mecha"), excessively saccharine > > young-girly stuff (shojo) and excessively violent boy-stuff (shonen). I > > don't care for ultra-violence or horror, tho' interesting > > historical-cultural horror sometimes gets as pass. I like much yokai > > (Japanese folkloric supernatural creatures.) Some anime hits for me... > > > > Samurai Champloo -- I don't like a lot of sword-glorification drama, but > > the satirical edge and characters in this one worked for me. > > > > Midnight Occult Civil Servants -- modern world people dealing with > > supernatural beings. And bureaucracy. > > > > The Morose Mononokean -- Mysterious young man tasked with exorcising > > misplaced yokai back to their own world. > > > > Natsumi's Book of Friends -- both anime and parent manga very good. One > > of the best of the "young person sees things no one else can" > > overpopulated trope. > > > > Zombie Land SAGA -- I dislike the zombie genre, and I don't much care > > for idol (Japanese boy- or girl- rock-band/pop star) tales. Why the > > insane _combination_ works so well... > > > > Pandora Hearts -- prefer the manga. The anime starts by following it, > > but diverts to a false ending at the end of season 2 which is NOT where > > the story is going. Bewildering plot/worldbuilding/ending, great > > characters. > > > > Saiyuki -- very gonzo retelling of _The Journey to the West_. Go with > > the manga on this one as well (recently repubbed as an emanga), but the > > anime is OK to dip into to sample -- early and poor visual production > > values (tho' very good Japanese voice acting), too many filler > > episodes. Again, characters that grow on one, but it takes into the > > second part, Saiyuki Reload, to get to the best bits. > > > > Bleach -- shonen classic. Ginormous and uneven. Characters haunt one's > > head anyway. > > > > Elegant Yokai Apartment Life -- charming. > > > > Noragami -- down-on-his-luck Japanese god tries to make his way in the > > modern world. > > > > Junjo Romantica and side-sequel Sekai Ichi Hatsukoi. -- Early entry in > > the boy's love (non-explicit -- well, mostly -- m/m romance) so may have > > some tropes that are not well-received anymore. The second one is set > > in a manga publishing company of the 90s and is full of writing and > > publishing jokes, not to mention education, that I appreciated. > > > > Hozuki's Coolheadedness. Adventures of the demon who is chief operating > > officer of the traditional Japanese hell. Funny, sly, also full of > > cultural education. Speaking of which... > > > > Folktales From Japan -- charming children' series with 3 short folk > > stories per half-hour episode. Fills one in painlessly on a lot of > > common cultural references that pop up elsewhere. (For example, in > > Hozuki.) > > > > Natsuyuki Rendezvous -- young man who falls in love with the widowed > > owner of a flower shop finds his suit impeded by the ghost of her late > > husband. > > > > Mononoke. -- (Not to be confused with also-excellent feature movie > > Princess Mononoke.) Mysterious medicine seller solves supernatural > > crimes. Incredibly stylish, probably owes much to kabuki theater. NOT > > for children. > > > > Kamisama Kiss -- high school girl evicted from her home does a favor for > > a disguised local god, and is granted his derelict shrine, his powers -- > > and its supernatural servants. Hijinks ensue. > > > > Mushi-shi -- still my fave anime of all time. Troubles caused by > > mysterious sub-life creatures dubbed "mushi" are solved by itinerant > > medicine seller and mushi naturalist/proto-scientist Ginko. The > > episodes are episodic rather than following a story arc, so getting the > > seasons out of order won't hurt much, but better to start with season 1 > > if you can find it. But if you can't, start with 2. Ginko is a much > > kinder medicine seller than the nameless... person, in Mononoke. > > > > Shonen Onmyoji -- young grandson of Abe no Seimei (famous real > > Heian-period court magician/astrologer) has magical adventures in period > > Kyoto. > > > > Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation -- classy but compressed/abridged > > animated version of The Untamed. Do NOT attempt to watch them together, > > the many differences between the versions will make it all even more > > confusing. (And it gives too short a shrift to my favorite character > > from the live-action. But that's just me.) Probably closer to the > > parent novel in some sections, but I won't know till the other 3/5 of > > the latter comes out in English. > > > > And that's enough for now. > > > > Ta, L. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From mathews55 at msn.com Mon Jul 11 19:29:38 2022 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 18:29:38 +0000 Subject: [LMB] anime and manga recs In-Reply-To: References: <066ff732-91f9-2e07-66e7-d755566e8582@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: Even better. In English, I hope. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Eric Oppen Sent: Monday, July 11, 2022 11:05 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] anime and manga recs No, it's a manga. On Mon, Jul 11, 2022 at 11:42 AM Pat Mathews wrote: > Vinland Saga was issued as anume?!?!? > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Eric Oppen > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2022 10:40 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [LMB] anime and manga recs > > I'm not much into manga or anime, but some that I like include the > adaptation of* Battle Royale *(ultraviolent, not for the squeamish!), > *Black > Lagoon* (again, violent!) and *Girls und Panzer* (sports involving tanks). > I've also enjoyed *Vagabond* (the life of Miyamoto Musashi; fairly > authentic AFAICT), *Vinland Saga* (Vikings; I wish my father could have > lived longer so I could have shown it to him---he was a Viking/Old Norse > buff) and a few others. > > As you may have noticed, I take a darker view of life than most people. > > On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 10:01 PM Lois Bujold > wrote: > > > Somewhere upthread that I've lost track of, someone asked for anime and > > manga recs. Many of these are on streaming service Crunchyroll, some I > > have on older discs and may be harder to find. > > > > I actually like only a narrow slice of the genres. I overdosed early on > > giant fighting robots (also called "mecha"), excessively saccharine > > young-girly stuff (shojo) and excessively violent boy-stuff (shonen). I > > don't care for ultra-violence or horror, tho' interesting > > historical-cultural horror sometimes gets as pass. I like much yokai > > (Japanese folkloric supernatural creatures.) Some anime hits for me... > > > > Samurai Champloo -- I don't like a lot of sword-glorification drama, but > > the satirical edge and characters in this one worked for me. > > > > Midnight Occult Civil Servants -- modern world people dealing with > > supernatural beings. And bureaucracy. > > > > The Morose Mononokean -- Mysterious young man tasked with exorcising > > misplaced yokai back to their own world. > > > > Natsumi's Book of Friends -- both anime and parent manga very good. One > > of the best of the "young person sees things no one else can" > > overpopulated trope. > > > > Zombie Land SAGA -- I dislike the zombie genre, and I don't much care > > for idol (Japanese boy- or girl- rock-band/pop star) tales. Why the > > insane _combination_ works so well... > > > > Pandora Hearts -- prefer the manga. The anime starts by following it, > > but diverts to a false ending at the end of season 2 which is NOT where > > the story is going. Bewildering plot/worldbuilding/ending, great > > characters. > > > > Saiyuki -- very gonzo retelling of _The Journey to the West_. Go with > > the manga on this one as well (recently repubbed as an emanga), but the > > anime is OK to dip into to sample -- early and poor visual production > > values (tho' very good Japanese voice acting), too many filler > > episodes. Again, characters that grow on one, but it takes into the > > second part, Saiyuki Reload, to get to the best bits. > > > > Bleach -- shonen classic. Ginormous and uneven. Characters haunt one's > > head anyway. > > > > Elegant Yokai Apartment Life -- charming. > > > > Noragami -- down-on-his-luck Japanese god tries to make his way in the > > modern world. > > > > Junjo Romantica and side-sequel Sekai Ichi Hatsukoi. -- Early entry in > > the boy's love (non-explicit -- well, mostly -- m/m romance) so may have > > some tropes that are not well-received anymore. The second one is set > > in a manga publishing company of the 90s and is full of writing and > > publishing jokes, not to mention education, that I appreciated. > > > > Hozuki's Coolheadedness. Adventures of the demon who is chief operating > > officer of the traditional Japanese hell. Funny, sly, also full of > > cultural education. Speaking of which... > > > > Folktales From Japan -- charming children' series with 3 short folk > > stories per half-hour episode. Fills one in painlessly on a lot of > > common cultural references that pop up elsewhere. (For example, in > > Hozuki.) > > > > Natsuyuki Rendezvous -- young man who falls in love with the widowed > > owner of a flower shop finds his suit impeded by the ghost of her late > > husband. > > > > Mononoke. -- (Not to be confused with also-excellent feature movie > > Princess Mononoke.) Mysterious medicine seller solves supernatural > > crimes. Incredibly stylish, probably owes much to kabuki theater. NOT > > for children. > > > > Kamisama Kiss -- high school girl evicted from her home does a favor for > > a disguised local god, and is granted his derelict shrine, his powers -- > > and its supernatural servants. Hijinks ensue. > > > > Mushi-shi -- still my fave anime of all time. Troubles caused by > > mysterious sub-life creatures dubbed "mushi" are solved by itinerant > > medicine seller and mushi naturalist/proto-scientist Ginko. The > > episodes are episodic rather than following a story arc, so getting the > > seasons out of order won't hurt much, but better to start with season 1 > > if you can find it. But if you can't, start with 2. Ginko is a much > > kinder medicine seller than the nameless... person, in Mononoke. > > > > Shonen Onmyoji -- young grandson of Abe no Seimei (famous real > > Heian-period court magician/astrologer) has magical adventures in period > > Kyoto. > > > > Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation -- classy but compressed/abridged > > animated version of The Untamed. Do NOT attempt to watch them together, > > the many differences between the versions will make it all even more > > confusing. (And it gives too short a shrift to my favorite character > > from the live-action. But that's just me.) Probably closer to the > > parent novel in some sections, but I won't know till the other 3/5 of > > the latter comes out in English. > > > > And that's enough for now. > > > > Ta, L. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From baur at chello.at Mon Jul 11 20:30:08 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 21:30:08 +0200 Subject: [LMB] OT: this is TRULY frightening Message-ID: <56c12f58-3f54-9a8d-9a1e-2a432325b8ec@chello.at> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtXBhi54HAg also read the explanation on why he did not run in the text below the video servus markus -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From mathews55 at msn.com Mon Jul 11 21:06:42 2022 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 20:06:42 +0000 Subject: [LMB] [stirling] OT: this is TRULY frightening In-Reply-To: <56c12f58-3f54-9a8d-9a1e-2a432325b8ec@chello.at> References: <56c12f58-3f54-9a8d-9a1e-2a432325b8ec@chello.at> Message-ID: What are you talking about? ________________________________ From: stirling at groups.io on behalf of markus baur via groups.io Sent: Monday, July 11, 2022 1:30 PM To: stirling at groups.io ; LidlessEye at groups.io ; strategypage at groups.io ; Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: [stirling] OT: this is TRULY frightening https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtXBhi54HAg also read the explanation on why he did not run in the text below the video servus markus -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#541813): https://groups.io/g/stirling/message/541813 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/92318222/346247 Group Owner: stirling+owner at groups.io Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/stirling/leave/10818367/346247/391464240/xyzzy [mathews55 at msn.com] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From margdean56 at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 02:48:27 2022 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 19:48:27 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Assassins of Thasalon Message-ID: My (signed!) hardcover copy from Subterranean Press arrived today. I don't usually go out of my way to purchase signed copies of anything, but in this case that was the whole print run, so... A lovely book! --Margaret Dean From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Tue Jul 12 05:18:30 2022 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 21:18:30 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Assassins of Thasalon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C9E2371-1A07-4396-A16E-96F542532EA2@comcast.net> On Jul 11, 2022, at 6:48 PM, Margaret Dean wrote: > > My (signed!) hardcover copy from Subterranean Press arrived today. I don't > usually go out of my way to purchase signed copies of anything, but in this > case that was the whole print run, so... A lovely book! > My copy showed up as well (I distinctly remember seeing a prediction of July 13th when I checked tracking last week). I noticed that while the box was packed with starch peanuts (water soluble), the book itself was wrapped in bubble wrap and the book itself was resting on styrofoam. "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com From baur at chello.at Tue Jul 12 05:22:31 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 06:22:31 +0200 Subject: [LMB] [stirling] OT: this is TRULY frightening In-Reply-To: References: <56c12f58-3f54-9a8d-9a1e-2a432325b8ec@chello.at> Message-ID: i am talking about the "white death" - avalanche .. servus markus Am 11.07.2022 um 22:06 schrieb Pat Mathews: > What are you talking about? > ________________________________ > From: stirling at groups.io on behalf of markus baur via groups.io > Sent: Monday, July 11, 2022 1:30 PM > To: stirling at groups.io ; LidlessEye at groups.io ; strategypage at groups.io ; Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. > Subject: [stirling] OT: this is TRULY frightening > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtXBhi54HAg > > also read the explanation on why he did not run in the text below the video > > servus > > markus > > -- > markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg > schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 > a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at > austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E > > a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html > > "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. > View/Reply Online (#541813): https://groups.io/g/stirling/message/541813 > Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/92318222/346247 > Group Owner: stirling+owner at groups.io > Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/stirling/leave/10818367/346247/391464240/xyzzy [mathews55 at msn.com] > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From baur at chello.at Tue Jul 12 05:25:22 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 06:25:22 +0200 Subject: [LMB] [strategypage] OT: this is TRULY frightening In-Reply-To: References: <56c12f58-3f54-9a8d-9a1e-2a432325b8ec@chello.at> Message-ID: <16ddab6e-a9b6-b56a-3277-2916d37f77d0@chello.at> surely not .. 8) servus markus Am 11.07.2022 um 23:04 schrieb duane oldsen: > Fuck me... > > On Mon, Jul 11, 2022 at 3:30 PM markus baur via groups.io > > wrote: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtXBhi54HAg > > > also read the explanation on why he did not run in the text below > the video > > servus > > markus > > -- > markus baur? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?SCA: markus von brixlegg > schluesselgasse 3/5? ? ? ? ? ? ?tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 > a-1040 wien? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?email: baur at chello.at > > austria/europe? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E > > a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html > > > "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." > > > > > > > > -- > Duane J. Oldsen > _._,_._,_ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Groups.io Links: > > You receive all messages sent to this group. > > View/Reply Online (#165287) > | Reply To Group > > | Reply To Sender > > | Mute This Topic | New Topic > > Your Subscription | > Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe > > [baur at chello.at] > > _._,_._,_ -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From fishman at panix.com Tue Jul 12 08:28:58 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 07:28:58 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Assassins of Thasalon In-Reply-To: <3C9E2371-1A07-4396-A16E-96F542532EA2@comcast.net> References: <3C9E2371-1A07-4396-A16E-96F542532EA2@comcast.net> Message-ID: And you would have bitched like hell if the book was damaged in any way. Either you accept the protective packing or you accept the potential damage. You cannot have it both ways, Harvey ------ Original Message ------ >From "Robert Woodward" To "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Date 7/12/2022 12:18:30 AM Subject Re: [LMB] Assassins of Thasalon > >My copy showed up as well (I distinctly remember seeing a prediction of July 13th when I checked tracking last week). I noticed that while the box was packed with starch peanuts (water soluble), the book itself was wrapped in bubble wrap and the book itself was resting on styrofoam. > > >"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." >Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. >?----------------------------------------------------- >Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com > From domelouann at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 14:27:59 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:27:59 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Quote from Curse of Chalion Message-ID: Latter half of the book, when Cazriel is in Ibra on the marriage negotiations. Thus saith Royse Bergon: "I've seen your integrity in action. It...widened my world. I'd been raised by my father, who is a prudent, cautious man, always looking for men's hidden, selfish motivations. No one can cheat him. But I've seen him cheat himself. If you understand what I mean." I suddenly realized, from this word picture of the Fox of Ibra and from the scenes where he and Caz speaks one on one, who the Fox reminds me of. He's Henry VII of England, down to the bone. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Jul 12 15:22:02 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 14:22:02 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Miles is still curled up on the deck - he's getting very fond of that deck. It's probably the only thing in the room that doesn't have a reason to hurt him. He sees all the red boots of the Security forces (Red? Seriously? And these people think that they have style?) And then there's four black boots - ah yes, good old Barrayar. Kety and Naru are marched out to their fates. Kety stops to congratulate Lord Vorpatril on his victory (and make a probably powerless threat). Ivan responds suitably: "Huh?" (Kety uses other people to do his dirty work while he stays at a lordly distance; it doesn't occur to him that some people like to do the dirty work while they use others as a shield. At least Miles doesn't kill his puppets.) Ivan checks that Miles is ok, then hauls him to his feet, and provides necessary support. He's a bit rough-and-ready, but he does take good care of Miles. Vorreedi says that the ambassador will protest about the shock stick (although he possibly regrets that there's not more to complain about. Vorreedi is way past the end of his tether.) He thinks that Vorreedi will struggle to survive this public disaster. Miles doesn't think it's going to be public, at all. Benin has provided (bubble-less) float chairs, extra robes and ghem-ladies for the two haut women. He deals with them far better than Naru ever did. Miles checks with Vorreedi, "Has Ivan, um, explained everything, sir?" "I trust so." Yes, Vorreedi is SO not happy. In his wildest nightmares he never thought that this would be the result of baby-sitting two little lords at a funeral. (He really should have researched Miles a bit better.) Ivan catches Miles up: after Miles left Ivan woke up and realised that Miles was gone, and in extreme danger. With no backup. Miles points out that Ivan was his backup (as Ivan comments, his favourite kind; unconscious and unable to stop him.) And I love this bit, one of Ivan's greatest stressors, "...You took off to get yourself killed, or worse, and everybody would have blamed me. The last thing Aunt Cordelia said to me before we left was, 'And try to keep him out of trouble, Ivan.' " (Gregor said almost exactly the same thing to Roic in Cryoburn.) So Ivan figured out what had happened and got away from the Consorts. "How?" "God, Miles, they're just like my mother, only eight times over. Ugh!" Ivan figured out certain things way WAY faster than Miles - but Ivan's not a romantic at heart. And then, as I said before, he had to get to Benin - not easy for a low-ranking enemy officer in the Celestial Garden. Gather up Vorreedi as well, and set things in motion. I'll say it again; he did a heck of a lot REALLY fast. And nobody noticed how amazing that was, because Ivan just grumbled and glossed over it and let Miles be centre stage. His compulsions are as strong as Miles's, just in a different direction. Mind you, Benin had been monitoring activity around the Star Creche. So he was ready to move, he just didn't know where. And he was suspicious of the governors - he had half the space fleet ready to pounce (the power of Imperial Security - wow - they can do anything!) Miles spares a thought for Chilian, who has no clue what's going on. Yes, Miles likes to clean up and save everyone he can. He also reminds himself that this is Cetagandan business, it's not his empire. Two men with hand tractors take the bubble out, the hauts and their attendants leave. Vorreedi - who really shouldn't be speaking so freely in front of the Cetas, but he's way past worrying now - wants to know why Miles didn't report about the ba in the first place. Why did he keep it a secret - well, Kety was trying to frame Barrayar - "From your own side." Ah, yes. Well... (Miles doesn't really know all of his own motives, it's ... complicated.) Basically it was a slight curiousity and suddenly he was in the middle of a really serious incident, and Barrayar was at risk. It all gets a bit muddled, so he falls back on 'twisted mutie trying to prove himself' - which always works well with Barrayarans, and Benin is still trying to figure Miles out. Ghem-Colonel Benin slowly deciphered this outpouring. "You wanted to be a hero?" "So badly you didn't even care for which side?" Vorreedi added in some dismay. .....Well, he did help Barrayar, by stopping the Cetagandan empire splitting and becoming several competing powers that could attack anyone, hungry for success and new territory. And he did succeed. "Oh, yeah?" said Ivan. "Where would they, and you, be right now if we hadn't shown up?" ...and Miles's answer shows just how scary, dangerous, focussed and ruthless he is - he'd already won, Kety just didn't know it yet. The only question left was whether Miles would survive. He's said this several other times as well: live or die, you make your goal. That's a cold, hard commitment. Miles also points out that he wasn't working for the Cetas; if he was working for anyone else, it was the Star Creche (and he realises very well that the goals of the Star Creche have very little to do with the goals of the Empire.) That shuts Benin up, for a moment, but then - the emperor 'requests' that Miles attend upon him. Now. (That is SO not a request. But can he do that to a non-Cetagandan? There is diplomatic immunity after all, but it's a thin shield at times.) Vorreedi and Ivan are allowed to go as well, if they keep quiet. Vorreedi is satisfied. Ivan is doing invisible again. They're not actually arrested, just being escorted. It's all in the name. Nadina and Pel are busy agreeing that Benin is a nice young man, so neatly turned-out, "...and he understands the proprieties." They agree they'll 'do something' for him. (Yes, the isolated, powerless haut ladies can control promotions in Imperial Security.) Benin sticks to Miles like glue all the way to and into the shuttle. He's a fast learner - you don't let Miles out of your sight. Benin is still radiating smug satisfaction; he's just arrested the superior officer who tried to torpedo his career. This is a GOOD moment; even the face paint can't hide his emotions. Miles congratulates him on cracking the case, 'General Benin'. Benin corrects him to 'Colonel Benin'. Miles has his own smugness, "That's what you think." From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 15:22:59 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 10:22:59 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Quote from Curse of Chalion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 9:28 AM Louann Miller wrote: > Latter half of the book, when Cazriel is in Ibra on the marriage > negotiations. > Thus saith Royse Bergon: > > "I've seen your integrity in action. It...widened my world. I'd been raised > by my father, who is a prudent, cautious man, always looking for men's > hidden, selfish motivations. No one can cheat him. But I've seen him cheat > himself. If you understand what I mean." > >From the same part of the book - what is the quote about death in war vs. death in childbed? Sylvia I know I have that books _some_where on one of these shelves... From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Jul 12 15:37:38 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 14:37:38 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 15 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Miles and Ivan had a lot of the same stressors; position, political threats, etc; (and yes, Miles had the physical problem as well) - but they've reacted so differently. Miles wants to shine, to throw his success in their faces, while Ivan wants to disappear. And, ironically, for a long time at least the opposite happens; Ivan rises steadily to a very respectable position, while Miles disappears and is seen only as a very minor officer in an easy, nepotistic job. Benin is having a BRILLIANT day, and it's all due to Miles. He's not quite sure how that came about, but he's keeping up as well as he can. And he's a man who knows where power lies, and how to respond; Naru hates the Star Creche like poison. Benin seems to just accept them, and he managed to find the time, in that scramble to get to Kety's ship, to scoop up some ghem-ladies, extra float chairs, and whatever else the haut ladies might need. Yes, he knows where the power is. And while Benin is having a great day, Vorreedi is so not. His career has flashed before his eyes a few times - imagine being the man who lost Aral Vorkosigan's son. And he really has no training in Miles- wrangling (Ivan is brilliant at it, but as usual he does it so smoothly that it's barely noticed.) Benin learns fast; he's not letting Miles out of his sight. I love it that Miles has to remind himself that it's not his empire, he can't sort out all the aftermath - he has to trust them to manage that part of it. From sturmvogel66 at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 15:39:59 2022 From: sturmvogel66 at gmail.com (Jason Long) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 10:39:59 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't think that Voreedi had the necessary clearances to know any significant details about Miles. If you think about it, Simon is testing Voreedi's flexibility and ability to deal with unusual situations, like nominal subordinates who have the Imperial ear. On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Miles is still curled up on the deck - he's getting very fond of that > deck. It's > probably the only thing in the room that doesn't have a reason to hurt him. > He sees all the red boots of the Security forces (Red? Seriously? And these > people think that they have style?) And then there's four black boots - > ah yes, good old Barrayar. Kety and Naru are marched out to their fates. > Kety > stops to congratulate Lord Vorpatril on his victory (and make a probably > powerless threat). Ivan responds suitably: "Huh?" (Kety uses other people > to do his dirty work while he stays at a lordly distance; it doesn't occur > to > him that some people like to do the dirty work while they use others as a > shield. At least Miles doesn't kill his puppets.) > > Ivan checks that Miles is ok, then hauls him to his feet, and provides > necessary > support. He's a bit rough-and-ready, but he does take good care of Miles. > > Vorreedi says that the ambassador will protest about the shock stick > (although > he possibly regrets that there's not more to complain about. Vorreedi is > way > past the end of his tether.) He thinks that Vorreedi will struggle to > survive this > public disaster. Miles doesn't think it's going to be public, at all. > > Benin has provided (bubble-less) float chairs, extra robes and ghem-ladies > for the two haut women. He deals with them far better than Naru ever did. > > Miles checks with Vorreedi, "Has Ivan, um, explained everything, sir?" > "I trust so." Yes, Vorreedi is SO not happy. In his wildest nightmares he > never > thought that this would be the result of baby-sitting two little lords at a > funeral. (He really should have researched Miles a bit better.) > > Ivan catches Miles up: after Miles left Ivan woke up and realised that > Miles was > gone, and in extreme danger. With no backup. Miles points out that Ivan was > his backup (as Ivan comments, his favourite kind; unconscious and unable to > stop him.) > > And I love this bit, one of Ivan's greatest stressors, "...You took off to > get yourself killed, or worse, and everybody would have blamed me. The last > thing Aunt Cordelia said to me before we left was, 'And try to keep him out > of trouble, Ivan.' " (Gregor said almost exactly the same thing > to Roic in Cryoburn.) > > So Ivan figured out what had happened and got away from the Consorts. > "How?" "God, Miles, they're just like my mother, only eight times over. > Ugh!" > Ivan figured out certain things way WAY faster than Miles - but Ivan's not > a > romantic at heart. And then, as I said before, he had to get to Benin - not > easy for a low-ranking enemy officer in the Celestial Garden. Gather up > Vorreedi as well, and set things in motion. I'll say it again; he did a > heck of a > lot REALLY fast. And nobody noticed how amazing that was, because Ivan > just grumbled and glossed over it and let Miles be centre stage. His > compulsions > are as strong as Miles's, just in a different direction. > > Mind you, Benin had been monitoring activity around the Star Creche. So he > was ready to move, he just didn't know where. And he was suspicious of the > governors - he had half the space fleet ready to pounce (the power of > Imperial > Security - wow - they can do anything!) > > Miles spares a thought for Chilian, who has no clue what's going on. Yes, > Miles > likes to clean up and save everyone he can. He also reminds himself that > this > is Cetagandan business, it's not his empire. > > Two men with hand tractors take the bubble out, the hauts and their > attendants > leave. > > Vorreedi - who really shouldn't be speaking so freely in front of the > Cetas, but > he's way past worrying now - wants to know why Miles didn't report about > the ba in the first place. Why did he keep it a secret - well, Kety was > trying to > frame Barrayar - "From your own side." Ah, yes. Well... (Miles doesn't > really > know all of his own motives, it's ... complicated.) > > Basically it was a slight curiousity and suddenly he was in the middle of a > really serious incident, and Barrayar was at risk. It all gets a bit > muddled, so > he falls back on 'twisted mutie trying to prove himself' - which always > works > well with Barrayarans, and Benin is still trying to figure Miles out. > Ghem-Colonel Benin slowly deciphered this outpouring. "You wanted to be a > hero?" > "So badly you didn't even care for which side?" Vorreedi added in some > dismay. > .....Well, he did help Barrayar, by stopping the Cetagandan empire > splitting and > becoming several competing powers that could attack anyone, hungry for > success and new territory. And he did succeed. > "Oh, yeah?" said Ivan. "Where would they, and you, be right now if we > hadn't shown up?" > ...and Miles's answer shows just how scary, dangerous, focussed and > ruthless > he is - he'd already won, Kety just didn't know it yet. The only question > left was > whether Miles would survive. He's said this several other times as well: > live or > die, you make your goal. That's a cold, hard commitment. > > Miles also points out that he wasn't working for the Cetas; if he was > working for > anyone else, it was the Star Creche (and he realises very well that the > goals of the > Star Creche have very little to do with the goals of the Empire.) That > shuts Benin > up, for a moment, but then - the emperor 'requests' that Miles attend upon > him. > Now. (That is SO not a request. But can he do that to a non-Cetagandan? > There > is diplomatic immunity after all, but it's a thin shield at times.) > Vorreedi and Ivan > are allowed to go as well, if they keep quiet. Vorreedi is satisfied. Ivan > is doing > invisible again. > > They're not actually arrested, just being escorted. It's all in the name. > Nadina and Pel are busy agreeing that Benin is a nice young man, so > neatly turned-out, "...and he understands the proprieties." They agree > they'll > 'do something' for him. (Yes, the isolated, powerless haut ladies can > control promotions in Imperial Security.) > > Benin sticks to Miles like glue all the way to and into the shuttle. He's a > fast learner - you don't let Miles out of your sight. Benin is still > radiating > smug satisfaction; he's just arrested the superior officer who tried to > torpedo > his career. This is a GOOD moment; even the face paint can't hide his > emotions. > > Miles congratulates him on cracking the case, 'General Benin'. Benin > corrects him to 'Colonel Benin'. Miles has his own smugness, "That's > what you think." > > > > > > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to sturmvogel66 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 16:02:45 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 11:02:45 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > You wanted to be a hero?" > "So badly you didn't even care for which side?" Vorreedi added in some > dismay. > Yes, pretty much. > .....Well, he did help Barrayar, by stopping the Cetagandan empire > splitting and > becoming several competing powers that could attack anyone, hungry for > success and new territory. And he did succeed. > "Oh, yeah?" said Ivan. "Where would they, and you, be right now if we > hadn't shown up?" > A good question. (but who is the 'they' and who is the 'you'?) > ...and Miles's answer shows just how scary, dangerous, focussed and > ruthless > he is - he'd already won, Kety just didn't know it yet. The only question > left was > whether Miles would survive. He's said this several other times as well: > live or > die, you make your goal. That's a cold, hard commitment. > > ...Benin sticks to Miles like glue all the way to and into the shuttle. > He's a > fast learner - you don't let Miles out of your sight. Benin is still > radiating > smug satisfaction; he's just arrested the superior officer who tried to > torpedo > his career. This is a GOOD moment; even the face paint can't hide his > emotions. > > Compare and contrast to Haroche, who tried to torpedo his superior officer and set up his subordinate. > Miles congratulates him on cracking the case, 'General Benin'. Benin > corrects him to 'Colonel Benin'. Miles has his own smugness, "That's > what you think." > > > The reward for a job well done is... another job. With more responsibility. Sylvia From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Jul 12 16:21:03 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 15:21:03 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Quote from Curse of Chalion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 9:28 AM Louann Miller wrote: > Latter half of the book, when Cazriel is in Ibra on the marriage > negotiations. > Thus saith Royse Bergon: > "I've seen your integrity in action. It...widened my world. I'd been raised > by my father, who is a prudent, cautious man, always looking for men's > hidden, selfish motivations. No one can cheat him. But I've seen him cheat > himself. If you understand what I mean." >From the same part of the book - what is the quote about death in war vs. death in childbed? Gwynne: The roya arched his brows at him. "Surely not. Just taking one?this matter of inheritance during the minority of their heir, if they are so blessed. One accident with a horse, and the royina of Chalion becomes regent of Ibra! It won't do. Bergon bears the risks of the battlefield, which his wife will not." "Well, which we hope she will not. Or else I am curiously poorly informed of the history of Ibra, my lord. I thought the royse's mother won two sieges?" The Fox cleared his throat. "In any case," Cazaril continued, "we maintain that the risk is reciprocal, and so must be the clause. Iselle bears the risks of childbirth, which Bergon never will. One breech birth, and he could become regent of Chalion. How many of your wives have outlived you, sir?" From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 17:34:09 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 12:34:09 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Quote from Curse of Chalion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > >From the same part of the book - what is the quote about death in war vs. > death in childbed? > > Gwynne: > The roya arched his brows at him. "Surely not. Just taking one?this matter > of inheritance during the minority of their heir, if they are so blessed. > One accident with a horse, and the royina of Chalion becomes regent of > Ibra! It won't do. Bergon bears the risks of the battlefield, which his > wife will not." > "Well, which we hope she will not. Or else I am curiously poorly > informed of the history of Ibra, my lord. I thought the royse's mother won > two sieges?" > The Fox cleared his throat. > "In any case," Cazaril continued, "we maintain that the risk is > reciprocal, and so must be the clause. Iselle bears the risks of > childbirth, which Bergon never will. One breech birth, and he could become > regent of Chalion. How many of your wives have outlived you, sir?" > -- > Thanks From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 19:15:11 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 13:15:11 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Quote from Curse of Chalion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Am I the only one reminded of Browning's poem "My Last Duchess?" On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 11:34 AM Sylvia McIvers wrote: > > >From the same part of the book - what is the quote about death in war > vs. > > death in childbed? > > > > Gwynne: > > The roya arched his brows at him. "Surely not. Just taking one?this > matter > > of inheritance during the minority of their heir, if they are so blessed. > > One accident with a horse, and the royina of Chalion becomes regent of > > Ibra! It won't do. Bergon bears the risks of the battlefield, which his > > wife will not." > > "Well, which we hope she will not. Or else I am curiously poorly > > informed of the history of Ibra, my lord. I thought the royse's mother > won > > two sieges?" > > The Fox cleared his throat. > > "In any case," Cazaril continued, "we maintain that the risk is > > reciprocal, and so must be the clause. Iselle bears the risks of > > childbirth, which Bergon never will. One breech birth, and he could > become > > regent of Chalion. How many of your wives have outlived you, sir?" > > -- > > > > Thanks > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From litalex at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 19:20:39 2022 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 14:20:39 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Miles-related (?) video Message-ID: <23DA619F-C6DA-45CE-9BDF-AEAC5EFB33CA@gmail.com> Hello, Just came across this video of the coach of Duke University?s women?s basketball team explaining life. Totally reminded me of Miles? experiences growing up: https://twitter.com/DukeWBB/status/1544291475608899584?s=20&t=rQ6HzEeGvzR1RtqRMrIf-A little Alex From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Tue Jul 12 19:54:14 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 14:54:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Quote from Curse of Chalion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jul 2022, Louann Miller wrote: > Latter half of the book, when Cazriel is in Ibra on the marriage > negotiations. > Thus saith Royse Bergon: > > "I've seen your integrity in action. It...widened my world. I'd been raised > by my father, who is a prudent, cautious man, always looking for men's > hidden, selfish motivations. No one can cheat him. But I've seen him cheat > himself. If you understand what I mean." > > I suddenly realized, from this word picture of the Fox of Ibra and from the > scenes where he and Caz speaks one on one, who the Fox reminds me of. He's > Henry VII of England, down to the bone. Very good point - although I would term Henry VIII worse -- for example, his execution of Thomas Cromwell. Cromwell, whatever one thinks of some of the actions he took on Henry's behalf, was consistently loyal and innocent of the charges that led to his death. (OK, yes I did enjoy Hilary Mantel's trilogy, although I certainly wouldn't whitewash Cromwell.) In fact, the nearest comparison I can think of to Henry VIII would be Josef Stalin. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 21:14:00 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 15:14:00 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Of course ImpSec will have to be subtle in following the ba, since the ba, probably, have genetically manipulated tor loyalty. Of course playing with ba genes might have unforeseen consequences. On Sun, Jul 10, 2022, 7:07 AM Karen Hunt wrote: > On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 1:17 AM Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > > From: Margaret Dean > > > > As someone with a little background in anthropology (a few college > courses > > at least), I can't help noticing that whether or not Cetagandan society > is > > matriarchal, it is still patrilineal. The Emperor is always male, > > apparently, and the office passes from father to son. I also notice that > > even a haut wife takes her husband's surname, and so do their children. > > It occurs to me to wonder how much the common Cetagandan on the > street--an > > ordinary citizen, not haut, ghem or ba--actually knows about the role of > > the haut women in the power structure of their society. > > --Margaret Dean > > > > Gwynne: Big hello to a fellow almost-anthropologist. I started training > > for it, > > but the need for money pushed me into teaching. I figured I was studying > > wild tribes anyway. > > > > As for Cetaganda - it's definitely a matriarchy. The haut ladies allow > the > > ghem > > to play their patriarchal games, it keeps the boys occupied. And they > > really don't > > care what the ghem do; the haut ladies keep track of all genomes in their > > own > > way, with their own files - and haut/ghem crosses are almost certainly > > filed > > under the haut woman's name. > > > > Brief semi-aside... Picturing the conversations within ImpSec when Miles' > and Ivan's reports come back. > > "Mostly we want to know when the ghem will start up another war." > "But it looks like the haut ladies are tuning aggression up and down, thus > controlling how often wars will happen." > "Just right now it seems they're planning to start tuning it down, though" > "For how long? And just think what happens when those ladies decide to cut > loose." > "hmmmmmmmmmmmmm" > ...[long pause] > "Ok, so we need to see what they're up to. How? I mean they live in Xanadu > and hardly ever come out" > "Haut Pel sometimes comes out, and she's on good terms with Miles" > "You seriously thinking of sending him to the embassy for a posting > there?!! I'm packing up and moving to Ylla if we try any such thing!" > "hmmmmmmmmmmmmm" > ...[another pause] > "Well, ok, we can't reach the haut ladies with any reliability. Let's think > wider." > "Lady d'Har and other haut brides, if we can reach them." > "Difficult, but put it on the list." > "Wait! I know! The ba. They run errands outside their Garden all the time." > > And so it was that the Barrayaran embassy staffers began following ba > around, learning which one worked for which haut Lady, and trying to make > friends strategically among them, to the great merriment of the other > embassies. Until it paid off... > > Karen > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From domelouann at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 21:16:58 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 15:16:58 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Quote from Curse of Chalion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know Henry VIII (8) gets all the publicity, but I actually meant his father Henry VII (7). On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 1:54 PM alayne--- via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Tue, 12 Jul 2022, Louann Miller wrote: > > > I suddenly realized, from this word picture of the Fox of Ibra and from > the > > scenes where he and Caz speaks one on one, who the Fox reminds me of. > He's > > Henry VII of England, down to the bone. > > Very good point - although I would term Henry VIII worse -- > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 21:23:26 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 15:23:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda Ch 14 Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think Pel is my favorite Haut character. On Sun, Jul 10, 2022, 11:45 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > I feel sorry for those techs; they probably don't know they're committing > treason (or didn't know when they started), and how do you say no to > Kety? And how can you get away, you're stuck on his ship. In some > cases, 'I was only obeying orders' is a fair defence, especially when > the orders aren't obviously wrong. When you have a governor and a > general telling you to do something, you do it. > > Kety's been very good at finding what people want, and making them > believe he can deliver: Vio wants her bubble back, her status, and the > role of Empress. Naru wants no more bubbles and the haut women > to lose power. And Kety's made both of them think they're going to > get what they want. I think if he has to drop one of them it'll be Vio, > she's already played her part. Naru has ongoing military value. > > Spare a thought for how much Ivan did, and how fast. Miles left the > star creche while Ivan was still unconscious. He and Pel went straight > to Kety, took a quick car to the shuttle port, shuttle to his ship, found > Nadina, got to the right room, stunned the techs, grabbed the Key, > took a few minutes to set it to transmit, out of the bubble, shock > stick.... it doesn't add up to a lot of time. In the same time Ivan woke > up from a combination of paralysis drug and stunner blast, (he > can't have felt well at that stage), found out about Miles, got free > of the Star Creche ladies, got through the Celestial Garden to Benin > (and just imagine a junior Barryaran officer demanding to see an > Imperial Security officer, refusing to speak to anyone else). Then > explaining it all to Benin, then Benin had to get a warrant directly > from the Emperor, then they had to get their squad and get to the > shuttle port, to the ship, onto Kety's ship without Kety being > warned, find the right place and break in. That's a LOT to get done in > a short time. With no authority, and being from a planet the > Cetagandans distrust. > > Don't you get the feeling that Pel is having a great time! > > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Tue Jul 12 21:27:31 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 16:27:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Quote from Curse of Chalion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, my misreading. Yes, I would compare the Fox to Henry VII. Both intelligent and inventive, both sly - sometimes not to their benefit. Alayne On Tue, 12 Jul 2022, Louann Miller wrote: > I know Henry VIII (8) gets all the publicity, but I actually meant his > father Henry VII (7). > > On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 1:54 PM alayne--- via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > >> On Tue, 12 Jul 2022, Louann Miller wrote: >> >>> I suddenly realized, from this word picture of the Fox of Ibra and from >> the >>> scenes where he and Caz speaks one on one, who the Fox reminds me of. >> He's >>> Henry VII of England, down to the bone. >> >> Very good point - although I would term Henry VIII worse -- >> > -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca As once-solid certainties crumble, it may be enough to cultivate your own artistic garden -- to do what you can as well as you can for as long as you can do it; to create alternate worlds that offer both temporary escapes and moments of insight; to open windows in the given world that allow us to see outside it. -- Margaret Atwood, "What Art Under Trump?" (2017), in _Burning Questions_ From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 22:30:57 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 16:30:57 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda Ch 14 Pt 2 In-Reply-To: <1379625372.333882.1657473229098@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1379625372.333882.1657473229098@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Miles' mind is on overdrive. That, and huge amounts of adrenaline would make calling in the forces would be the farthest from his mind. Also Dag Benin might consulted his superior Naru. Also, Miles suspected someone high up in Cetagandan security was in on the conspiracy. So logically Miles assumed that Ivan would call in the cavalry when he woke up. On Sun, Jul 10, 2022, 12:14 PM Richard Molpus wrote: > This is the point where Miles, if he had any sense (Ivan would - and > did!) would have called Dag and told him (at least) "There's been a break > in the case, get ready to move once you get word". > But that isn't what an action hero does... > > On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 11:30:02 AM CDT, Gwynne Powell < > gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > It's all happening now. > > Miles, Pen and Nadina all load onto the float chair, bubble up, and head > (a bit slowly) down the corridors to the right place; stopping to get > Nadina > did save them a lot of time. Miles looks at the door and wonders how to > get in - knock? (This wasn't a serious suggestion, he was just beginning to > formulate a strategy.) Pel knocks on the door. Sometimes simple works best. > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From huntkc at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 22:32:49 2022 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:32:49 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 4:14 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > Of course ImpSec will have to be subtle in following the ba, since the ba, > probably, have genetically manipulated tor loyalty. Of course playing with > ba genes might have unforeseen consequences. > Oh, yes. Don't push them into anything they might construe as disloyalty. But you can get a lot just with chatting and sorting out which haut Lady goes with which ba(s). [snippage] > And so it was that the Barrayaran embassy staffers began following ba > > around, learning which one worked for which haut Lady, and trying to make > > friends strategically among them, to the great merriment of the other > > embassies. Until it paid off... > > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 22:38:41 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 16:38:41 -0500 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: <8C29A33F-8F48-4CEB-9FCB-DEB2E06C9441@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: Ah yes, the getting eaten by a animal method of gene improvement. As far as lions, tigers and bears (oh my) are concerned, they are the ones on top of the food chain. I wonder if there is a Darwin award for hugging hungry bears. On Sun, Jul 10, 2022, 1:49 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > In his old 'zine, *Murder Can be Fun,* John Marr wrote about how zoos had a > constant problem keeping their visitors away from the animals. People > would insist on wanting to pet the nice bear or get into the cage with the > pretty big cat, thinking that it wouldn't harm them. And hilarity would > ensue. > > I blame a lot of this on entertainment. Shows like *Gentle Ben, > *children's > stuff featuring anthropomorphic animals (with the clever prey animals > always outwitting their stupid predator pursuers), stuff like that. > > On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 4:35 AM Raymond Collins > wrote: > > > On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 8:14 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > > > > Remember the bit in Pocahontas that said that, if you meet a bear in > the > > > woods, put down your gun, walk up, and start playing with her cubs. > > > > > > William A Wenrich > > > > > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf > of > > > Katherine Collett > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2022 1:40:20 PM > > > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. > > > > > Perhaps that was Pocahontas way of getting rid of these foreign > > devils. > > > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > > > > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C7d5dd3e72b4d4c72ec7008da5f878eec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637927333110092961%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2FK1suI9fHGmRYwVjSSuBWuPvffGkUHhV9XtgYBBSlx0%3D&reserved=0 > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Tue Jul 12 22:41:05 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 15:41:05 -0600 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: <8C29A33F-8F48-4CEB-9FCB-DEB2E06C9441@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: <2DD35FAF-43FB-4FF3-9996-D443127A52D3@brazee.net> > On Jul 12, 2022, at 3:38 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > Ah yes, the getting eaten by a animal method of gene improvement. As far as > lions, tigers and bears (oh my) are concerned, they are the ones on top of > the food chain. I wonder if there is a Darwin award for hugging hungry > bears. Of course, there are a lot of bacteria and viruses that are demonstrably higher on the food chain. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 22:42:54 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 16:42:54 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 14 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One advantage that Miles has was people kept underestimating him. Kety certainly underestimated him. On Sun, Jul 10, 2022, 1:52 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > Would they let Gregor travel out of the Empire at all? Even to friendly > places like Vervain? > > On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 12:48 AM Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > > From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > > ...... > > Perhaps Gregor said, "Cetaganda - I've never been there! The funeral > > sounds like a perfect way for me to learn more about that society." and > > his entire array of advisors from the PM down blanched at the risk of > > letting their Emperor get into the hands of the Cetagandans. > > So they compromised on Miles and Ivan, with Gregor telling both of them > he > > wanted a FULL recounting of what it was like. > > Maybe he figured that those two were the ones most likely to see behind > > the scenes and to be forgiven any trespasses. > > Alayne > > > > Gwynne: There's definitely a message being sent; to risk both heirs in > the > > heart > > of the enemy is a huge statement of trust, at a time when treaty > > negotiations > > aren't going all that well; Gregor is showing a lot of trust. Mind you, > > sending > > Miles anywhere isn't exactly sending a vulnerable innocent into the > lion's > > den; > > he'd have the lions lined up and doing tricks in no time - I wonder if > the > > Cetagandans, on reflection, wonder if it wasn't an act of trust so much > as > > an > > undeclared invasion. > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From margdean56 at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 23:02:16 2022 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 16:02:16 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Quote from Curse of Chalion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 12:15 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > Am I the only one reminded of Browning's poem "My Last Duchess?" > I don't get the impression that the Fox lost any of his wives *on purpose.* --Margaret Dean From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 23:09:08 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:09:08 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Fwd: Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: <787ae21f-c143-6fab-466a-5671a6b4d364@chello.at> Message-ID: Haut kibbles-N-bits. Yummy. On Sat, Jul 9, 2022, 2:00 AM Eric Oppen wrote: > I wonder what Haut Ladies eat? I'm sure that any such person who saw the > chaos and squalor in which I live (books EVERYWHERE!) would have a giant > conniption. > > On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 1:55 AM Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > no .. there would be a bubble popping up and down on your door step - > > with a little, tasteful holographically projected sign > > > > servus > > > > markus > > > > Am 09.07.2022 um 08:37 schrieb Eric Oppen: > > > This is silly, but when I saw the title of this thread, I had a vision > of > > > opening my door in the morning to find a Haut Lady curled up in a > basket > > on > > > my front stoop, with a note pinned to her robe saying "Please take me > > in!" > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 8, 2022 at 10:03 PM Gwynne Powell < > gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> From: Richard Molpus > > >> > > >> > > >> It seems the Haut women given to successful Ghem are intended to mix > > Haut > > >> genes into the Ghem matrix. that's why a Haut wife's offspring outrank > > and > > >> earlier children (presumably, the Ghem so honored won't be making any > > >> further children with a lower-rank wife). > > >> It's a slow (and inefficient) way to spread the Haut gene mix, but > it's > > >> one they've got. > > >> Not all Haut women will want to stay in the Garden; escaping all those > > >> annoying sisters must be a relief - from low girl on the lists to top > > women > > >> in society can be attractive (Trophy husband, anyone?). > > >> > > >> Gwynne: I found it! This, from Moira in CVA: Grandmama?s fine lips > > >> thinned. ?You understand, when I was?detached, from the haut, I was > > already > > >> a fully-trained geneticist. I simply missed the cut, and not by very > > >> much?but it was always harder for us girls from the outer planets to > > >> compete with the haut women from Eta Ceta itself. They always had > > access to > > >> the very latest developments, you know...." > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > >> > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 23:14:39 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:14:39 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Fwd: Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: <787ae21f-c143-6fab-466a-5671a6b4d364@chello.at> Message-ID: So there is a certain amount of competition amongst the Haut to be the best geneticist in the Star Creche. I wonder how it's set up. Is it initiative based or is it academy based. Meaning are they tested by their knowledge or productivity or a combination of both? On Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 5:09 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > Haut kibbles-N-bits. Yummy. > > On Sat, Jul 9, 2022, 2:00 AM Eric Oppen wrote: > >> I wonder what Haut Ladies eat? I'm sure that any such person who saw the >> chaos and squalor in which I live (books EVERYWHERE!) would have a giant >> conniption. >> >> On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 1:55 AM Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < >> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: >> >> > no .. there would be a bubble popping up and down on your door step - >> > with a little, tasteful holographically projected sign >> > >> > servus >> > >> > markus >> > >> > Am 09.07.2022 um 08:37 schrieb Eric Oppen: >> > > This is silly, but when I saw the title of this thread, I had a >> vision of >> > > opening my door in the morning to find a Haut Lady curled up in a >> basket >> > on >> > > my front stoop, with a note pinned to her robe saying "Please take me >> > in!" >> > > >> > > On Fri, Jul 8, 2022 at 10:03 PM Gwynne Powell < >> gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > >> From: Richard Molpus >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> It seems the Haut women given to successful Ghem are intended to >> mix >> > Haut >> > >> genes into the Ghem matrix. that's why a Haut wife's offspring >> outrank >> > and >> > >> earlier children (presumably, the Ghem so honored won't be making any >> > >> further children with a lower-rank wife). >> > >> It's a slow (and inefficient) way to spread the Haut gene mix, but >> it's >> > >> one they've got. >> > >> Not all Haut women will want to stay in the Garden; escaping all >> those >> > >> annoying sisters must be a relief - from low girl on the lists to top >> > women >> > >> in society can be attractive (Trophy husband, anyone?). >> > >> >> > >> Gwynne: I found it! This, from Moira in CVA: Grandmama?s fine lips >> > >> thinned. ?You understand, when I was?detached, from the haut, I was >> > already >> > >> a fully-trained geneticist. I simply missed the cut, and not by very >> > >> much?but it was always harder for us girls from the outer planets to >> > >> compete with the haut women from Eta Ceta itself. They always had >> > access to >> > >> the very latest developments, you know...." >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com >> > >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> > >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> > >> >> > -- >> > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com >> > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> > >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 23:20:08 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:20:08 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 14 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's only when Miles' plans seems to work is when the poo hits the fan. On Sat, Jul 9, 2022, 9:18 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Miles calls Vorob'yev on the comconsole, and tells him - with a happy > smile - that > he's found Ivan, who is now having a tour of the Star Creche. It's a > competitive- > cousin thing; Miles achieved it, so Ivan had to as well. > > Vorob'yev isn't happy - he says that Vorreedi doesn't like these > 'spontaneous > additions to the planned itinerary' - which is a glorious phrase, and > basically > describes Miles's entire career. he also hopes that Ivan won't (ok he puts > it > delicately, but basically he doesn't want Ivan to attempt any romantic > interludes > with the haut women. Ivan has achieved his own fame already.) > > "...Ivan's doing just fine. Never better." Ivan is at that moment > stretched out > unconscious on the floor. > > Then they make a few quick plans - if anything goes wrong go to > Ghem-Colonel > Benin or the Emperor, nobody else, there's a high-up traitor in Security. > Rian's > already worked that out - to get to the Ba Lura it has to be somebody with > access. > > Pel fills her sleeves with Vio's bits and pieces, then Miles hops onto the > armrest > and they're off to invade the Cetagandan fleet. (All humour aside, this is > so like > Miles too, and heartbreakingly so - going off on his mission with no > weapons, few > resources, and no idea what's ahead. And the confidence that he'll > succeed. He is > incredibly brave, he just moves so fast you don't notice it often.) > > For a moment Miles wishes it was Rian, but he knows that can't be. In a > way he's > as divided as Mark; part of him is wallowing in his romantic ambitions, > another > part of him knows perfectly well that it's going nowhere. And he can > maintain both > of those diametrically opposed personas at the same time.) And he likes > Pel, anyway - > she's not so tightly-wound as the rest of them, she almost has a sense of > humour. And > she can be practical, and good in a crisis. He can work with her. > > They bubble up and join Kety's group - it's a large mob, a few dozen > ghem-guards, > ghem-ladies, servitors (not ghem or ba), and ghem-General Chilian. So is > Chilian in > on the treason, or not? He's either a traitor or he's about to die - if > Kety can't use > him he'll dump him. Kety waves the bubble into his own car to go to the > shuttleport. > He asks 'Vio' if there was a problem; Pel sets the speakers to sound like > Vio. Fortunately > Kety wants her to keep the bubble for a while (they have to hide Ivan, > after all.) And > '...my love...' shows that Kety and Vio are having a romance, or at least > one of them > is faking it to achieve their goals. (You know, a suitable punishment > might be to put the > two of them in a cell together for the rest of their lives; a century or > so. Just the two > of them, together forever. They deserve each other.) > > Pel has a quick chat with Miles, he feels really uncomfortable talking > inside the > bubble, but Kety can't hear a word. (You wonder what they're doing in > those bubbles > at social events; chatting to each other, comparing notes, telling rude > jokes?) Pel wants > to search for the Great Key first; Miles wants to find Nadina, she might > have useful > information. > > Kety want's to question Ivan when he wakes up, 'before.' Before...? I > don't think > he plans on Ivan having a long after. > > Then they're on the shuttle, then the ship. And the attendants all head > off to do > whatever they do. Miles notes that Kety has dismissed the guards; no > witnesses. > They head down a corridor that's obviously in the nice end of the ship, > and there's > a guard outside one door. Good hint. Kety heads into a bare, obviously > unused cabin - > to put Ivan there. Pel sends Kety to get some synergine for Ivan, and Kety > is also > going to get a rather intense version of Fast-Penta. (I love the idea of > someone > trying to interrogate Ivan under Fast-Penta. If they're sure he's the > mastermind, > they'll go crazy trying to figure out how he's fighting the drugs.) Kety > hopes Vio > didn't dose Ivan too heavily, they don't want anything to show up on the > autopsy. > (Just remember, Ivan was conscious but paralysed, so if things had gone to > plan > he'd be lying there hearing all this. That's vicious.) She doesn't want > Kety's help > to get Ivan out of the bubble; she says she's using him as a footrest and > enjoying > having a bubble again. > > Kety promises her that she'll have more privileges than the Empress had, > and as > many outworlders as she wants. Oh yes, Kety has plans. > > As soon as Kety is gone they head to that door guard, dose him with Vio's > spray, > and use his hand (still attached, don't panic, these are the good guys) to > get the > door open. > > Nadina has been stripped to her underwear - humiliating, and it would have > been > horrific for her - and her hair is clamped to the floor. She's been > insulted in so > many ways, just for their amusement basically. Yes, horrific. > > Haut women don't hug, not even in a crisis, but they clasp hands > supportively. > They have to get her loose, but the idea of cutting her hair is anathema > to her. > Not quite as much to Pel, but she's the practical one. Miles distracts > them and > cuts it anyway - it had to be done. Cutting her hair seems to affect her > more than > all the rest, but she gets herself together, borrows a layer or two of > Pel's outfit, > and they all load up onto the bubble and head off on their mission. > > Nadina is able to lead them to the right place to get to the Great Key; so > Miles's > plans are working so far. > > This is a long chapter, so Part 2 tomorrow. > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 23:41:56 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:41:56 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Fwd: Cetaganda - Ch 14 - Comments In-Reply-To: <4daf9730-66f4-45ff-c118-0e795c6bebf5@chello.at> References: <4daf9730-66f4-45ff-c118-0e795c6bebf5@chello.at> Message-ID: There is a certain level of misogyny in ghem-General Naru's attitude towards the Haut. His tone of voice to ,who he thinks is Vio, "Being back in your bubble makes you proud again. I see. Enjoy it while it lasts. We'll have all of those damned bitches pried out of their little fortresses after this. Their days of being cloaked by the Emperor's blindness and stupidity are numbered, I assure you, Haut Vio." As well as a level of l?se-Maj-es-t? towards the Emperor. I wonder what the punishment is that in Cetagandan Cetagandan Court's. On Sat, Jul 9, 2022, 11:30 AM Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > Am 09.07.2022 um 16:30 schrieb Gwynne Powell: > > > > It's not emphasised enough: Miles is incredibly brave. He's attacking > > a Cetagandan ship, single-handed, unarmed. > > unarmed? - he is armed with a bubble and one, later two haut women .. 8) > > > This could go > > horribly wrong, not just for him but for Barrayar. > > > > And a special award goes to Vorreedi for '...spontaneous > > additions to the planned itinerary...' which is the perfect > > description of just about everything Miles has done so far. > > one gets the impression of british style levels of understatement here .. > > servus > > markus > > > There has to be a question about Gregor's intentions. He's > > risking his two heirs, which is huge - there must have been a > > LOT of diplomatic guarantees on that one. But he's sent Miles > > to Cetaganda. He knows what Miles is like. Of course he > > couldn't predict this, but you just know that SOMETHING would > > happen. Is the Dendarii fleet lingering a few wormholes away, > > in case they're needed quickly? > > > > Ivan has a collection of horrific experiences, most of them > > due to Miles (hover-tank, collapsing tunnel...) And now > > there's being kidnapped by Vio. She chose a particularly > > nasty drug; he's completely paralysed, but awake and aware. > > (And he was meant to be taken to the ship, and to hear that > > conversation about not leaving drugs in him for the autopsy - > > imagine how horrific that would be.) As it was he almost had > > his throat cut while he was paralysed and unable to defend > > himself - but feeling the blade at his throat - and then he was > > stunned. So all the things he does after that are achieved > > while he has a stunner-migraine, too. Overhshadowed by > > Miles, of course, but he really had a horrible experience. > > > > The treatment of Nadina seems to have been unnecessarily > > brutal; actions were specifically chosen to humiliate and > > terrorise her. Vio and Kety are haut and I know that some of > > their attitudes are just haut arrogance, but they really do > > inhabit the nastiest end of the spectrum. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 23:43:38 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:43:38 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Alternate Cetaganda story In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: He could say he did it purely for the glory of Barrayar. On Sat, Jul 9, 2022, 12:11 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > I wonder what would have happened if the Koudelka girls had been sent to > the state funeral instead of, or along with, Ivan and Miles? > > When Ivan gets back from the "assignation" with the ghem women, the > Koudelkas are giving him identical glares... > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 23:52:01 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:52:01 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: <209c5173-5d1d-c9bc-747f-2e771c37c9d4@chello.at> References: <209c5173-5d1d-c9bc-747f-2e771c37c9d4@chello.at> Message-ID: I think the Cetagandans like to keep how their society works secret from prying outsiders. It's only under unusuall circumstances that Miles had a ringside view of the inner workings of Cetagandan culture. Consider the only Haut who set foot on Barrayar were married off to Ghem Generals and probably didn't interact with Barrayan inferiors. On Sat, Jul 9, 2022, 12:26 PM Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > thank you .. > > yes .. a thoroughly amusing (and potentially stimulating) mental picture > > 8) > > servus > > markus > > Am 09.07.2022 um 18:51 schrieb Karen Hunt: > > "brief" - underwear > > > > On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 12:30 PM Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < > > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Am 09.07.2022 um 16:34 schrieb Gwynne Powell: > >>> From: Markus Baur > >>> > >>> and i wonder how many loud cries of "how could we have overlooked that" > >>> (*) will emanate from the Cetagandan dept. at Cockroach Central after > >>> Miles' and Ivan's reports (and don't think Ivan would not be carefully > >>> debriefed and could add a lot of valuable insights on ghem and haut > >>> female society) > >>> (*) and they DID overlook it or Miles and Ivan would have been much > >>> better briefed > >>> markus > >>> > >>> Gwynne: When you use the words 'Ivan' and 'debrief' in the same > sentence, > >>> my mind goes in a totally different direction to the one you intended. > >> > >> i fear you will have to elaborate on this .. you lost be (probably due > >> to me not being an english native speaker( > >> > >> servus > >> > >> markus > >> > >>> Sorry, but it had to be said. > >> -- > >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to huntkc at gmail.com > >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > >> > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 23:57:41 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:57:41 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Zoom In-Reply-To: References: <92C4560F-640E-4C70-8575-20183292CB7A@brazee.net> Message-ID: I screwed up. I'm so sorry I missed it. On Sat, Jul 9, 2022, 1:35 PM Louann Miller wrote: > I have all my settings adjusted, and am about to join in myself. I will > need to leave a bit early due to family errands. > > On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 1:23 PM Howard Brazee wrote: > > > I believe my computer translated everything. > > > > I clicked on the message showing: > > Topic: Vorkosigan Tea Party - Elizabeth Holden's Zoom Meeting > > Time: Jul 9, 2022 03:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada) > > > > and it created a calendar event (on my Mac) for 1:00 Colorado time. > > > > > > > > > On Jul 9, 2022, at 12:08 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH > wrote: > > > > > > With all of the talk of time zones and DST, I had set my calendar for > > 12:00 pm MDT. > > > > > > It looks like I?m an hour early. > > > > > > William A Wenrich > > > > > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > > > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to howard at brazee.net > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to domelouann at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 01:00:00 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 19:00:00 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think if Ivan had the choice between being the Emperor of Barrayar or migrating to Athos I think he would take Athos. On Wed, Jun 22, 2022, 12:49 PM Pat Mathews wrote: > except that Byerly pointed out some of the old Vor dragons were saying the > part-haut wife would disqualify him from the Imperial succession for sure. > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Gwynne Powell > Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 5:17 PM > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments > > From: Eric Oppen > > > > Even funnier would be if Miles AND Ivan got Haut brides. > > Gwynne: Well, Ivan DID get a quarter-haut bride. But his family were > too busy boggling at the Jacksonian side. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 01:10:47 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 19:10:47 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetagandan thoughts... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Makes me wonder if in the sleaziest bowels of commoner Cetagandan cities there are red light districts which have been like holographs with Hot Hout Women!!!. Would the authorities turn a blind eye or would they go in and arrest everybody. On Wed, Jun 22, 2022, 6:21 PM Matthew George wrote: > On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 6:27 PM Sylvia McIvers > wrote: > > > What's the Ceta equivalent of "Elvis spotted bagging groceries"? > > > > "I totally saw a Haut woman outside of her bubble, she was wearing striped > pajamas and Cthulhu slippers." > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 01:24:17 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 19:24:17 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I expect a Barrayan Manuel on how to fight Cetagandans would have a short section on the Cetagandan enemy such as. If you see this medal on a Cetagandan enemy shoot him (or her?) With extreme prejudice. On Tue, Jul 5, 2022, 2:09 PM Sylvia McIvers wrote: > On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 10:45 AM Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > > > > > > > > This party is the absolute opposite of Yenaro's. The people here are the > > ones who think > > they run the Empire, each of them a century older than Yenaro and his > > drone friends. > > > > See also, Miles in Cryoburn wondering what his life would have looked like > if his "old oak tree" of a grandfather hadn't fallen. The young Cetas > have no room to grow for the next _century_, how will that warp the future > of hte empire? > > > > > > Vorob'yev is still wondering how they got the invitation; Miles says he > > was told to > > study the power hierarchy. But is it? There's a lot of different kinds of > > power in this empire. > > > > Unlike the homelife of Miles's home empire, where Lady Alys is barred by > her gender from taking any oaths. Therefore she has no power. Clearly. > > > > > > Miles gets to ride in the bubble, past Ivan and Vorob'yev - and there's a > > strange sense of power in seeing them, hearing their conversation, > without > > them knowing who it is going past them. Maybe being in a bubble wouldn't > > be all bad. (I wonder if they ever hit people intentionally?) > > > > There's a reason that the cloak of invisibility goes all the way back to > the tarn-helm and probably further back than that. > > > > > > Guess what? Bubbles can't fly, but they can do a controlled glide .... > > Miles manages to avoid heart failure on the trip. His pilot is quite > calm, > > and is actually enjoying herself: "I haven't done that in years." > > > > Miles did his wild flight through the Dendarrii Gorge. With his eyes > shut. > But then, HE was the one piloting. Completely different. > > > > > > Each one a different combination of hair, skin and eye colours - they > are > > works of art. > > > > The baronne's Jewels are also unique art, but in a different direction. > Does two books constitute a theme by Lois? > > > > > > Sylvia, quite enjoying this re-read > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 01:29:13 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 19:29:13 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda, wormholes, astronomy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That act! Dammit! Still I wonder if there are any generation ships in Vorkoverse. On Sat, Jul 9, 2022, 3:13 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > That would definitely be the ast of a desperate people. Hopefully the > planet won't be colonized before they reach it. > > On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 8:33 AM Gwynne Powell > wrote: > >> From: WILLIAM A WENRICH >> >> >> There has been a lot of speculation on list about how wormholes work. Are >> they line of sight? Is what you find on the other end in the same galaxy or >> even the same universe?... >> William A Wenrich >> >> Gwynne: I wonder how close some of those worlds are in r/l. Would it be >> a tactic in war to send a fleet on the long, slow way round, to pop up >> unexpectedly where a planet wasn't expecting them because they'd kept >> guards on the wormholes? Or to use that as part of a coordinated attack? >> >> And would it be cheaper to send some non-urgent cargo the long way, for >> some reason - avoiding the law, or refugees fleeing a planet that didn't >> want >> them to leave? Put everyone except the crew in stasis, then head off in >> an >> unexpected direction, using various comets, asteroid belts or planetary >> explosions to cover you, while the bad guys are still watching the >> wormholes >> and think they've got the escapees trapped. It might take years, even >> centuries, for the sleepers to arrive at some safe planet, but they'd get >> there >> in the end, and be free. >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 01:31:54 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 19:31:54 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Fwd: l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <34882aaa-b2a1-b53c-6311-7c0dc4e6d546@chello.at> Message-ID: Or a spray bottle. I wonder what would happen if both sents are squirted. Terrifying lust? On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 10:29 AM Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > an invisible, consciously controlled set of squirt bottles containing > "love me" or "fear me" pheromones > > servus > > markus > > Am 06.07.2022 um 15:27 schrieb Gwynne Powell: > > From: baur baur > > > > but the version of pheromone control would be conscious (like for homo > drakensis) .. and would be active only if the haut wants it to be .. > > markus > > > > Gwynne: Good point. Although now I have the mental image of a squirt > bottle... > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 01:39:07 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 19:39:07 -0500 Subject: [LMB] l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: <310838505.1663474.1657121470412@mail.yahoo.com> References: <310838505.1663474.1657121470412@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That would be terrifying. Some secret base way off in the frozen northern hinterlands with horrible mutant monsters ready to boil up and take Jackson's Whole over ruled over by a insane Haut queen with vengeance on her twisted thoughts. On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 10:31 AM Karen A. Wyle wrote: > A fanfic waiting to happen! > Karen A. Wyle > On Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 11:20:01 AM EDT, Eric Oppen < > ravenclaweric at gmail.com> wrote: > > Now I'm picturing an embittered, renegade Haut running off to Jackson's > Whole to do experiments that the Star Creche has forbidden. > > "Ha! Those FOOLS! They LAUGHED AT ME! They SNEERED at my wonderful > ideas! They kicked me out of Eta Ceta! They said I was MAD! MAD, do you > hear? Well, now I've got all the resources I ever wanted, and with these > resources, I'll SHOW THEM! I'll SHOW THEM ALL! BWAHAHAHA!" > > The scary thing is, I can easily envision Jacksonian barons who're ruthless > enough, and short-sighted enough, to take such a Haut in. That baron > might soon find out that the servant has become the master. "Yeth, Haut > Silvio! What does mathter want?" (A Haut renegade who'd really gone over > the edge would probably be building his or her own minions.) > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 01:47:12 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 19:47:12 -0500 Subject: [LMB] l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think the Cetaganda colony was created so the geneticists could experiment with human DNA in peace without having to deal with ethical rules. So they might already had a plan in place. The first buildings set up where probably genetic labs and gene banks from, I assume, Earth. On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 10:44 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Tony Zbaraschuk > > ... > Engineering-tradeoff problems are notoriously hard to optimize, because you > have to ask "what problems am I willing to deal with to get the good things > I want", and that's even before you run into "we have to experiment for > 30-50-100 years to see the results of _this_ tweak". I suspect that the > haut are cautious, certainly much more cautious than (say) Jacksonians, > when it comes to "things we want to make permanently part of our genome." > Then again, maybe that's the difference -- Jackson's Hole is quite willing > to create whatever tools you want, ignoring that they're making new humans > ("'They tried to redesign the _enlisted man_? By _committee_?'"); Ceta's > goals are more inward-focused. > Tony Z > > Gwynne: We don't know how many ba are made, and what happens to the > ones who are experiments that failed. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 01:53:31 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 19:53:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: DST or Summer time In-Reply-To: <6hjbch5vguuakp8kp0ekd0ckuvdcdtdc5o@4ax.com> References: <6hjbch5vguuakp8kp0ekd0ckuvdcdtdc5o@4ax.com> Message-ID: Reletavistic effects would also alter time on different planets. GPS satellites have to compensate when giving position fixes. On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 1:03 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 12:13:15 +0000, WILLIAM A WENRICH > wrote: > > >I'm wondering who came up with the idea of changing clocks by government > orders. Don't blame Benjamin Franklin. His statement was probably a joke, > and he didn't say anything about changing clocks. H suggested ringing bells > and setting off cannon to wake everyone up. > >IIRC, standardized time zones didn't come about until railroads made > travel arrangements necessary. > > A standard time in the UK (there's only one time zone, GMT) came with > "railway time", to make timetables useful. > -- > Tidying the house while the children are growing > is like shovelling snow while it's still snowing. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From saffronrose at me.com Wed Jul 13 01:56:55 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:56:55 -0700 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37644B9B-03BB-4142-8028-719F6487A26E@me.com> On Jul 12, 2022, at 2:39 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > ?Ah yes, the getting eaten by a animal method of gene improvement. As far as > lions, tigers and bears (oh my) are concerned, they are the ones on top of > the food chain. I wonder if there is a Darwin award for hugging hungry > bears. How do you give a COVID test to a hibernating black bear? https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/03/30/into-the-wild-animals-the-latest-frontier-in-covid-fight/ A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 02:51:04 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 20:51:04 -0500 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: <2425b593-c9b9-5251-085f-7aa63364d19d@matija.com> Message-ID: That might be something the Haut is working on. However it the Haut might consider that trivial. I think what the Haut are attempting to is to create a work of art in a human form. They are not really certain what they are creating but they'll know when it's done. On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 1:56 PM Damien Sullivan wrote: > On Wed, Jul 06, 2022 at 10:31:16AM +0100, Bujold list wrote: > > > I have wondered several times why the genome could not be tweaked so that > > the ghem officers could do the facepaint internally instead of bothering > > with the makeup. > > I would guess that creating chromatophores *and* the neural connections > to control them is highly non-trivial. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Wed Jul 13 02:54:22 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 19:54:22 -0600 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: <2425b593-c9b9-5251-085f-7aa63364d19d@matija.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 12, 2022, at 7:51 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > That might be something the Haut is working on. However it the Haut might > consider that trivial. I think what the Haut are attempting to is to > create a work of art in a human form. They are not really certain what they > are creating but they'll know when it's done. Agreed. And they measure their individual contributions as we evaluate artists. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 03:38:03 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 02:38:03 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 14 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Raymond Collins One advantage that Miles has was people kept underestimating him. Kety certainly underestimated him. . Gwynne: Very true, and they underestimated him in the wrong direction, so to speak. His first impact comes from his very obvious physical differences. People tend to focus on that, and then see the brave little man overcoming those problems - but the physical side is pretty much irrelevant, except as a factor in his development. People underestimate Miles because they don't realise that his mental parameters are so different; how many people would advise a middle-ranking officer to go straight to the Emperor? It simply wouldn't occur to most people. And that was a major factor in the resolution of the whole situation; Benin had access to some very high-level resources. And he got those arrest warrants directly from the Emperor, VERY fast. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 03:38:20 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 21:38:20 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Winter Solstice: Southern Edition In-Reply-To: <33089245-7462-4A68-95AF-24E5CE88A853@me.com> References: <33089245-7462-4A68-95AF-24E5CE88A853@me.com> Message-ID: I was Catholic. Now I'm just plain agnostic. While the bible is an amazing document I don't think it's divinely inspired. On Thu, Jul 7, 2022, 6:21 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Jul 7, 2022, at 9:58 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > > > ?Personally, if I HAD TO adopt a religion, and they wouldn't just let me > be > > generic-Protestant, I'd go with either Asatru or Zoroastrianism. I like > > Asatru because that's my ancestors' religion, and Zoroastrianism because > > dualism makes a lot more sense explaining the existence of evil. > Galloping > > through the night in a cloak, hat and mask slashing the "Z" sign on > things > > would be fun too. > > > >>> On Jul 6, 2022, at 11:24 AM, Marc Wilson > wrote: > >>> > >>> If I were forced, on pain of death, to adopt a religion, I might choose > >>> to become a Sikh. Those guys walk the walk. > > >snerk< > > Add an FM for Freddie Mercury. > > My husband and I are Pagan, but our son?s a Heathen. Not sure he calls > himself an Asatruer, though. He gets German from his FMF and his MFM lines. > > Marina > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From maireg83 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 04:13:33 2022 From: maireg83 at gmail.com (Sue Nicholson) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 15:13:33 +1200 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Only if there was another good option for Emperor. At base Ivan would put Barrayar first - Loyalty y'know. His avoidance of anything like heading in that direction is cause he knows exactly how grim a job it is and he doesn't want it. Which is quite a good recommendation really. SueN On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 at 12:00, Raymond Collins wrote: > I think if Ivan had the choice between being the Emperor of Barrayar or > migrating to Athos I think he would take Athos. > > o.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 04:31:12 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 22:31:12 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it might have to be a effect of their original collective philosophies from Earth. Chinese philosophy of yin yang the belief that the universe consists of two forces in equilibrium creating balance and harmony. I think that's why the Cetagandans stick with male and female as the bases of their culture. The Haut men and women have their places in the social order down to the Ghem, the labourer class. It's only the Ba that show no sexual characteristics. On Fri, Jul 8, 2022, 7:23 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Lois Bujold > > > LMB:? ...... > Meanwhile, the haut do appear to be keeping the traditional backup in > place... > Ta, L. > > Gwynne: It's interesting that they're not only keeping male and female, but > making very clear differences between them. And apparently not > experimenting > with other gender possibilities (no herms, frex). Why are they maintaining > gender differences at all? If they went sexless they could eliminate a lot > of > hormonal problems, and quite a bit of the energy and internal support > systems > required. Or go herm, and not have to differentiate between two different > genders - at least saving a lot of work and time. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 04:32:44 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 22:32:44 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 13 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not to mention blood pressure medicines. On Fri, Jul 8, 2022, 9:38 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Miles does his homework; he's memorised all the high-ranking > military officers, most of the ghem-clan markings, and so on. He > plans for anything. > > I love the little bit of friction between the ba and the Cetagandan > Security officer. They are still human, after all. > > And I'm sure there's a list somewhere in the Security offices with > a large red mark beside Miles's name; watch out for this one, he > wanders. > > It's interesting that the Star Creche, highest of high in their society, > is the least decorative and artistic. It's a working installation. And > in a crisis the haut ladies jump in, and act. > > Spare a thought for Vorreedi. The poor man must be on heartburn > meds by now. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From saffronrose at me.com Wed Jul 13 04:56:24 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 20:56:24 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Winter Solstice: Southern Edition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0B38FB52-2AC3-4ABD-81B7-9F4213DF0125@me.com> On Jul 12, 2022, at 7:38 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > ?I was Catholic. Now I'm just plain agnostic. While the bible is an amazing > document I don't think it's divinely inspired. Whether it was divinely inspired or not, I can?t say, but humans, mostly males, decided which scroll jars came with in any exodus, and which were left behind. Then there were the translations, about which I can go on too long, also mostly done by human makes, too often with overt or passive/unconscious bias and agendas. Reared Catholic, too. There are a lot of Jewitches and recovering Catholics and Episcopalians/Anglicans in Wicca. Other sects of Pagans, Polytheists, Druids?can?t say for sure. I have no idea if there are clusters of former Abrahamics in Heathen sects, absolutely none. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From tlambs1138 at charter.net Wed Jul 13 05:17:55 2022 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 21:17:55 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 13 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0e0301d8966f$87949eb0$96bddc10$@charter.net> Riffing from the movie AIRPLANE--Voreedi: "This was the wrong week to quit (insert name of substance)". Jean Lamb tlambs1138 at charter.net https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20 From phoenix at mindstalk.net Wed Jul 13 05:18:04 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 00:18:04 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 14 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 02:38:03AM +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: > factor in his development. People underestimate Miles because they don't > realise that his mental parameters are so different; how many people would > advise a middle-ranking officer to go straight to the Emperor? It simply wouldn't Though that was probably less "Miles, the hyper manic-depressive genius" and more "Miles, the guy raised with the Emperor by the Regent". Like Ivan telling Dono to go to Gregor, much later. Less Miles specifically, more elite status and assumption of access. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at mindstalk.net Wed Jul 13 05:21:57 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 00:21:57 -0400 Subject: [LMB] l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 07:47:12PM -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: > I think the Cetaganda colony was created so the geneticists could > experiment with human DNA in peace without having to deal with ethical > rules. So they might already had a plan in place. The first buildings set > up where probably genetic labs and gene banks from, I assume, Earth. Earth has the most genes, but I headcanon that Beta has the best catalogue, published by the Genetic Health Board, courtesy of medical privacy ranking below Science! on Beta. Everyone gets sequenced and tracked and used to make gene recommendations for parents to consider... Perhaps raw data is embargoed until people are dead. I also headcanon the early haut bootstrapped with that database... possibly with a stolen copy of the full (up to date, unembargoed) data, brought by a renegade Betan. -xx- Damien X-) From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 06:54:33 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 00:54:33 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh dear! I just had a vision of Miles having sex to the music of the William Tell overture. My inner eye! On Thu, Jun 23, 2022, 5:53 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Raymond Collins > > Despite all of his ailments, one thing is for sure, Miles' libido isn't > damaged. Whet Miles falls for a woman it's like falling off a cliff. > > Gwynne: Miles does everything at full speed and to the extreme. > That's just his baseline. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 07:06:28 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 01:06:28 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Old Characters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: True. After all he owns planet Earth now. It needs to be fixed up and all after that nuclear war so long ago. And something about a tree. It's been ages since I read "The Immortal" by Roger Zelazny. And, of course ole Lazarus Long believed in not taking anything too seriously. That's how he got to live 2000 years. On Thu, Jun 23, 2022, 12:52 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Lois does a good job of using grownups in her stories. Cordelia and Aral > are grownups. Although Penric starts young he is acting grown by the latter > stories. The old patroller is a grownup. > Few stories feature grownups that act that way. Woodrow Wilson Smith acts > grownup only when he is acting as the Senior. > > While thinking about this, I recognized a connection between Ivan and > another old man, Conrad Nomikos at least in their relation to work. Do the > job right the first time so you don't have to repeat yourself. > > William A Wenrich > A sinner utterly dependent on the grace of God. > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 07:12:52 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 01:12:52 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 8 - comments too In-Reply-To: References: <2b72a592-2668-1d15-3df8-8e20d11465d4@chello.at> Message-ID: I think Jack Sparrow would be at a disadvantage being drunk and all. On Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 2:19 PM Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > a few light years should be sufficient - as long as you have a fast > courier standing by as escape vehicle > > servus > > markus > > Am 25.06.2022 um 21:14 schrieb Eric Oppen: > > Captain Jack Sparrow vs. Miles Vorkosigan? > > > > I'd like to watch. From a good safe distance away. > > > > On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 1:38 PM Pat Mathews wrote: > > > >> There was a Hagar the Horrible cartoon a few days ago which is to that > >> point. Some king or other called Hagar "a complete barbarian." He took > it > >> as high praise. > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > >> WalterStuartBushell > >> Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2022 12:30 PM > >> To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > >> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > >> Subject: Re: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 8 - comments too > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Jun 25, 2022, at 12:25 PM, Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < > >> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > >>> > >>> if you need a haut genealogy you do not consult a genalogist, you > >> consult the the Star Creche archivist / research librarian > >> > >> And you better have a good reason and need to know, that is one that the > >> Haut finds good, > >> or you?ll just get a Hauty response. > >> > >> Of curse it?s doubtful that anyone not Haut will be given the > information. > >> > >> Not an Empire that anyone has been given to spend their birthday dream > on, > >> that I recall, > >> despite the beauty of the Celestial Garden. Compared to the Cetagandan > >> Empire, the Jackson's > >> Whole looks unprofessional and crude. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com > >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > >> -- > >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > >> > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 07:16:15 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 01:16:15 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 8 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting. On Wed, Jun 29, 2022, 11:20 AM Margaret Dean wrote: > On Wed, Jun 29, 2022 at 2:50 AM Raymond Collins > wrote: > > > > > Suspect number two the governor of Rho Ceta make Miles > nervous. > > The Satrapy of Rho Ceta is the closest to Barrayar space. The governor is > > Haute Este Rond. He had been convinced to invite the Barrayarans to > poetry > > reading. > > > > I note in passing that Rond is the haut constellation Tej's grandmother > Moira comes from. > > > --Margaret Dean > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 07:21:35 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 01:21:35 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: <4e22eea4-7670-c782-f79a-69733f0ae65d@chello.at> References: <100245369.464147.1657095660006@webmail.mymagenta.at> <1371042738.485965.1657105451278@webmail.mymagenta.at> <4e22eea4-7670-c782-f79a-69733f0ae65d@chello.at> Message-ID: I could see someone getting vengeance with Jackson's Whole useing a stealthed asteroid moving at relativistic speeds. Vengeance is a dish best served cold. On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 2:14 PM Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > Am 06.07.2022 um 20:55 schrieb Damien Sullivan: > > On Wed, Jul 06, 2022 at 01:04:11PM +0200, Bujold list wrote: > >> there are two interesting things about RKV > >> > >> 1. you do not need to send them through a jump point - they can come at > your opponent through normal space (if you are patient enough) > > > > That takes years, and extremely precise aiming, or far-end correction > > motors which make the rock much more detectable when activated. > > you use the entire ship as an RKV impactor - so there is enough engine > power for course corrections .. (plus perhaps a little live boat for > escape if you plan to add a crew .. but if you have a crew its probably > a suicide ride - final revenge for killed home world) > > > Given effects of stellar gravity over years, the 'precise aiming' might > > not even be possible. > > ideally you keep accelerating and doing course correction all the way - > the ideal engine for this kind of application would be a Bussard ramjet > > servus > > markus > > > > -xx- Damien X-) > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rgmolpus at flash.net Wed Jul 13 07:46:47 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 06:46:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <100245369.464147.1657095660006@webmail.mymagenta.at> <1371042738.485965.1657105451278@webmail.mymagenta.at> <4e22eea4-7670-c782-f79a-69733f0ae65d@chello.at> Message-ID: <1001321312.563460.1657694807771@mail.yahoo.com> If you do the math, any decent sized freighter will give a planet a nuclear winter for 5 - 10 years. On Wednesday, July 13, 2022 at 01:22:02 AM CDT, Raymond Collins wrote: I could see someone getting vengeance with Jackson's Whole useing a stealthed asteroid moving at relativistic speeds. Vengeance is a dish best served cold. On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 2:14 PM Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > Am 06.07.2022 um 20:55 schrieb Damien Sullivan: > > On Wed, Jul 06, 2022 at 01:04:11PM +0200, Bujold list wrote: > >> there are two interesting things about RKV > >> > >> 1. you do not need to send them through a jump point - they can come at > your opponent through normal space (if you are patient enough) > > > > That takes years, and extremely precise aiming, or far-end correction > > motors which make the rock much more detectable when activated. > > you use the entire ship as an RKV impactor - so there is enough engine > power for course corrections .. (plus perhaps a little live boat for > escape if you plan to add a crew .. but if you have a crew its probably > a suicide ride - final revenge for killed home world) > > > Given effects of stellar gravity over years, the 'precise aiming' might > > not even be possible. > > ideally you keep accelerating and doing course correction all the way - > the ideal engine for this kind of application would be a Bussard ramjet > > servus > > markus > > > > -xx- Damien X-) > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 07:48:06 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 01:48:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] [strategypage] OT: this is TRULY frightening In-Reply-To: <16ddab6e-a9b6-b56a-3277-2916d37f77d0@chello.at> References: <56c12f58-3f54-9a8d-9a1e-2a432325b8ec@chello.at> <16ddab6e-a9b6-b56a-3277-2916d37f77d0@chello.at> Message-ID: Wow! Seriously, this is climate change writ large. We are seeing Lake Mead still shrinking with without a end in sight. We are reaching a point where we may have to make personal sacrifices such as air conditioning, water usage and other activities that dump more greenhouse gas into the atmosphere. On top of that, the official population of Earth is supposed to reach 8 billion very soon. India is set to surpass China in population. And of course the Supremes just weakened the EPA. The good news? There are some old mobsters sweating in Las Vegas. On Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 11:25 PM markus baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > surely not .. 8) > > servus > > markus > > Am 11.07.2022 um 23:04 schrieb duane oldsen: > > Fuck me... > > > > On Mon, Jul 11, 2022 at 3:30 PM markus baur via groups.io > > > > wrote: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtXBhi54HAg > > > > > > also read the explanation on why he did not run in the text below > > the video > > > > servus > > > > markus > > > > -- > > markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg > > schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 > > a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at > > > > austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E > > > > a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html > > > > > > "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Duane J. Oldsen > > _._,_._,_ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Groups.io Links: > > > > You receive all messages sent to this group. > > > > View/Reply Online (#165287) > > | Reply To Group > > > > > | Reply To Sender > > > > > | Mute This Topic | New Topic > > > > Your Subscription | > > Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe > > > > [baur at chello.at] > > > > _._,_._,_ > > > -- > markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg > schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 > a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at > austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E > > a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html > > "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rgmolpus at flash.net Wed Jul 13 07:50:42 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 06:50:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 15 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <478964995.566992.1657695042260@mail.yahoo.com> This is the chapter that educated Miles into the important of a haut woman's hair. He uses that to his advantage in 'Diplomatic immunity' when he composes the message to General Benin 'By Rian's hair, this is real'. Only someone who had seen and worked? with a Haut would know the importance of their long hair - a personal way to tell Dag the message was really from Miles. On Tuesday, July 12, 2022 at 09:37:58 AM CDT, Gwynne Powell wrote: Miles and Ivan had a lot of the same stressors; position, political threats, etc;? (and yes, Miles had the physical problem as well) - but they've reacted so differently. Miles wants to shine, to throw his success in their faces, while Ivan wants to disappear. And, ironically, for a long time at least the opposite happens; Ivan rises steadily to a very respectable position, while Miles disappears and is seen only as a very minor officer in an easy, nepotistic job. Benin is having a BRILLIANT day, and it's all due to Miles. He's not quite sure how that came about, but he's keeping up as well as he can. And he's a man who knows where power lies, and how to respond; Naru hates the Star Creche like poison. Benin seems to just accept them, and he managed to find the time, in that scramble to get to Kety's ship, to scoop up some ghem-ladies, extra float chairs, and whatever else the haut ladies might need. Yes, he knows where the power is. And while Benin is having a great day, Vorreedi is so not. His career has flashed before his eyes a few times - imagine being the man who lost Aral Vorkosigan's son. And he really has no training in Miles- wrangling (Ivan is brilliant at it, but as usual he does it so smoothly that it's barely noticed.) Benin learns fast; he's not letting Miles out of his sight. I love it that Miles has to remind himself that it's not his empire, he can't sort out all the aftermath - he has to trust them to manage that part of it. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 07:52:24 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 01:52:24 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Assassins of Thasalon In-Reply-To: References: <3C9E2371-1A07-4396-A16E-96F542532EA2@comcast.net> Message-ID: I got my copy today, as well. It too was in a box full of styrofoam peanuts wrapped in a bubble baggie bag. And it was packed by Emmy. The number of my book is 666. On Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 2:29 AM Harvey wrote: > > And you would have bitched like hell if the book was damaged in any way. > Either you accept the protective packing or you accept the potential > damage. You cannot have it both ways, > > Harvey > > ------ Original Message ------ > From "Robert Woodward" > To "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." > > Date 7/12/2022 12:18:30 AM > Subject Re: [LMB] Assassins of Thasalon > > > > >My copy showed up as well (I distinctly remember seeing a prediction of > July 13th when I checked tracking last week). I noticed that while the box > was packed with starch peanuts (water soluble), the book itself was wrapped > in bubble wrap and the book itself was resting on styrofoam. > > > > > >"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." > >Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. > >?----------------------------------------------------- > >Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 08:06:34 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 02:06:34 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Miles-related (?) video In-Reply-To: <23DA619F-C6DA-45CE-9BDF-AEAC5EFB33CA@gmail.com> References: <23DA619F-C6DA-45CE-9BDF-AEAC5EFB33CA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Nice. It's also good advice. On Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 1:20 PM Alex Kwan wrote: > Hello, > > Just came across this video of the coach of Duke University?s women?s > basketball team explaining life. > > Totally reminded me of Miles? experiences growing up: > > https://twitter.com/DukeWBB/status/1544291475608899584?s=20&t=rQ6HzEeGvzR1RtqRMrIf-A > > little Alex > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 08:13:06 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 02:13:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unwanted Haut Women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wonder if the ba have social clubs. Do they enjoy entertainment? There is a whole Cetagandan subculture that practically everyone ignores. On Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 4:33 PM Karen Hunt wrote: > On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 4:14 PM Raymond Collins > wrote: > > > Of course ImpSec will have to be subtle in following the ba, since the > ba, > > probably, have genetically manipulated tor loyalty. Of course playing > with > > ba genes might have unforeseen consequences. > > > > Oh, yes. Don't push them into anything they might construe as disloyalty. > But you can get a lot just with chatting and sorting out which haut Lady > goes with which ba(s). > > [snippage] > > > And so it was that the Barrayaran embassy staffers began following ba > > > around, learning which one worked for which haut Lady, and trying to > make > > > friends strategically among them, to the great merriment of the other > > > embassies. Until it paid off... > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 08:18:16 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 02:18:16 -0500 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: <37644B9B-03BB-4142-8028-719F6487A26E@me.com> References: <37644B9B-03BB-4142-8028-719F6487A26E@me.com> Message-ID: You take out life insurance then very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very carefully hire an idiot to do it. On Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 7:57 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Jul 12, 2022, at 2:39 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > > ?Ah yes, the getting eaten by a animal method of gene improvement. As > far as > > lions, tigers and bears (oh my) are concerned, they are the ones on top > of > > the food chain. I wonder if there is a Darwin award for hugging hungry > > bears. > > How do you give a COVID test to a hibernating black bear? > > > https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/03/30/into-the-wild-animals-the-latest-frontier-in-covid-fight/ > > A. Marina Fournier > saffronrose at me.com > Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e > Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA > Sent from iFionnghuala > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 08:36:44 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 02:36:44 -0500 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: <2425b593-c9b9-5251-085f-7aa63364d19d@matija.com> Message-ID: There is a museum of art in Omaha, called Joslyn Art Museum, it has a Jackon Pollock painting called, "Galaxy" which I stop and gaze at it. The question is why did he stop- what was that thing in the picture that said to Pollock, okay stop I'm finished. It is one of my favorites. That's what I think will happen with the Cetagandans Hauts. They will declare their work perfect one day, and the rest of the galaxy will look at their creation and know, yes it is perfect, but they will scratch their heads and say, "Well yes. But, why is it perfect?" On Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 8:54 PM Howard Brazee wrote: > > > > On Jul 12, 2022, at 7:51 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > > That might be something the Haut is working on. However it the Haut might > > consider that trivial. I think what the Haut are attempting to is to > > create a work of art in a human form. They are not really certain what > they > > are creating but they'll know when it's done. > > Agreed. And they measure their individual contributions as we evaluate > artists. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 08:40:00 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 02:40:00 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's just as well that Ivan married a one quarter Cetagandan then. On Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 10:14 PM Sue Nicholson wrote: > Only if there was another good option for Emperor. At base Ivan would put > Barrayar first - Loyalty y'know. His avoidance of anything like heading > in that direction is cause he knows exactly how grim a job it is and he > doesn't want it. Which is quite a good recommendation really. > > SueN > > On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 at 12:00, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > I think if Ivan had the choice between being the Emperor of Barrayar or > > migrating to Athos I think he would take Athos. > > > > o.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From litalex at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 13:07:04 2022 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 08:07:04 -0400 Subject: [LMB] [strategypage] OT: this is TRULY frightening In-Reply-To: References: <56c12f58-3f54-9a8d-9a1e-2a432325b8ec@chello.at> <16ddab6e-a9b6-b56a-3277-2916d37f77d0@chello.at> Message-ID: <51077DC9-CE3B-43A6-ABA0-A57DBB50835E@gmail.com> Hello, > On Jul 13, 2022, at 02:48, Raymond Collins wrote: > > Wow! Seriously, this is climate change writ large. We are seeing Lake Mead > still shrinking with without a end in sight. > We are reaching a point where we may have to make personal sacrifices such > as air conditioning, water usage and other activities that dump more > greenhouse gas into the atmosphere. On top of that, the official population > of Earth is supposed to reach 8 billion very soon. India is set to surpass > China in population. And of course the Supremes just weakened the EPA. > The good news? There are some old mobsters sweating in Las Vegas. Yeah, I was watching a comedy news show that does do some deeper dives. And while the Lake Mead situation is alarming, Las Vegas is actually quite efficient in its water usage. For example, while the pretty famous huge fountain in front of the hotel uses a lot of water, it?s actually too salty for human consumption. Also, the city has supposedly banned decorative grass lawns, etc. Other places that need the water in Lake Mead and along the river might have to copy Las Vegas? water policy in the end. little Alex From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 13:39:36 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 12:39:36 +0000 Subject: [LMB] [strategypage] OT: this is TRULY frightening In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Raymond Collins Wow! Seriously, this is climate change writ large. We are seeing Lake Mead still shrinking with without a end in sight. We are reaching a point where we may have to make personal sacrifices such as air conditioning, water usage and other activities that dump more greenhouse gas into the atmosphere. On top of that, the official population of Earth is supposed to reach 8 billion very soon. India is set to surpass China in population. And of course the Supremes just weakened the EPA. The good news? There are some old mobsters sweating in Las Vegas. Gwynne: A few years ago Australia had been through more than a decade of drought. Some country towns had no water. Bushfires (forest fires) were a double tragedy, using precious water to put them out. Cities were on water restriction - no garden watering, no car washing. The government was giving us free plumbers to fix dripping taps, and free low-usage shower heads. They were making plans for desalination plants. Warragamba Dam, that supplies most of Sydney's water, was lower than it had ever been. We were told, by experts, that Warragamba would never be full again, and we'd probably have water restrictions for the rest of our lives. A few years later Warragamba is overflowing, making the floods even worse, and we've had three once-in-a-hundred-year floods in a year. There's a campaign to make the dam wall higher, so that it won't have to release water during heavy rains, instead of making the floods worse. So I'm not all that impressed by experts. Yes, we need them. And many of them, or at least some of them, are well-informed and reliable. But we always have to be careful about believing them - sure, listen to what they say, make plans, but just be ready for the world to tip things over. You never know what's around the corner (or coming down the river.) From wawenri at msn.com Wed Jul 13 13:42:13 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 12:42:13 +0000 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: <8C29A33F-8F48-4CEB-9FCB-DEB2E06C9441@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: It doesn?t have to be a predator. Witness those who pet bison. Any animal (I was going to say wild , but this also applies to dogs, cats, horses, and cows.) should be approached with appropriate caution. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Raymond Collins Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2022 3:38:41 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? Ah yes, the getting eaten by a animal method of gene improvement. As far as lions, tigers and bears (oh my) are concerned, they are the ones on top of the food chain. I wonder if there is a Darwin award for hugging hungry bears. On Sun, Jul 10, 2022, 1:49 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > In his old 'zine, *Murder Can be Fun,* John Marr wrote about how zoos had a > constant problem keeping their visitors away from the animals. People > would insist on wanting to pet the nice bear or get into the cage with the > pretty big cat, thinking that it wouldn't harm them. And hilarity would > ensue. > > I blame a lot of this on entertainment. Shows like *Gentle Ben, > *children's > stuff featuring anthropomorphic animals (with the clever prey animals > always outwitting their stupid predator pursuers), stuff like that. > > On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 4:35 AM Raymond Collins > wrote: > > > On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 8:14 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > > > > Remember the bit in Pocahontas that said that, if you meet a bear in > the > > > woods, put down your gun, walk up, and start playing with her cubs. > > > > > > William A Wenrich > > > > > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf > of > > > Katherine Collett > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2022 1:40:20 PM > > > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. > > > > > Perhaps that was Pocahontas way of getting rid of these foreign > > devils. > > > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > > > > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C2f8e7e08fd244249fa3f08da644ef1de%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637932587474359947%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=F1eJIGvWdRWuN8EJcNQ46tLD3GsiEfwjZfG3ytObYP4%3D&reserved=0 > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C2f8e7e08fd244249fa3f08da644ef1de%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637932587474359947%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=F1eJIGvWdRWuN8EJcNQ46tLD3GsiEfwjZfG3ytObYP4%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C2f8e7e08fd244249fa3f08da644ef1de%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637932587474359947%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=F1eJIGvWdRWuN8EJcNQ46tLD3GsiEfwjZfG3ytObYP4%3D&reserved=0 > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C2f8e7e08fd244249fa3f08da644ef1de%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637932587474359947%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=F1eJIGvWdRWuN8EJcNQ46tLD3GsiEfwjZfG3ytObYP4%3D&reserved=0 > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C2f8e7e08fd244249fa3f08da644ef1de%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637932587474359947%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=F1eJIGvWdRWuN8EJcNQ46tLD3GsiEfwjZfG3ytObYP4%3D&reserved=0 From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 13:43:03 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 12:43:03 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 14 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Damien Sullivan On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 02:38:03AM +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: > factor in his development. People underestimate Miles because they don't > realise that his mental parameters are so different; how many people would > advise a middle-ranking officer to go straight to the Emperor? It simply wouldn't Though that was probably less "Miles, the hyper manic-depressive genius" and more "Miles, the guy raised with the Emperor by the Regent". Like Ivan telling Dono to go to Gregor, much later. Less Miles specifically, more elite status and assumption of access. -xx- Damien X-) Gwynne: Yes, family has a lot to answer for. And it probably helps to explain how Ivan navigated his way to the higher levels of Cetagandan Imperial Security as well; neither of them is overly impressed or daunted by rank. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 13:45:57 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 12:45:57 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Raymond Collins I could see someone getting vengeance with Jackson's Whole useing a stealthed asteroid moving at relativistic speeds. Vengeance is a dish best served cold. Gwynne: If it's so easy for us to imagine someone using a ship or asteroid to seriously dent a planet, then I'd imagine that a few thousand years from now they have warning systems and planetary defences. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 13:51:16 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 12:51:16 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Raymond Collins It's just as well that Ivan married a one quarter Cetagandan then. Gwynne: Yes, not only is Ivan safe, but he's given his children the incredible gift of being safe from plots and suspicion. Ivan spent thirty years in the shadow of the throne, avoiding plots with a skill that brought admiration from ImpSec. His children, and their children, will never have to calculate how many steps they are from the throne, or fend off plotters with a predatory gleam in their eyes. From wawenri at msn.com Wed Jul 13 14:24:44 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 13:24:44 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Uterine Replicators Message-ID: There is a Dutch company (spun off from a university) that is planning on starting clinical trials in 2024. I am literally praying that we won't have to wait 700 years for actuality. Yes, there will be problems and we will have people (like Van Atta) who will try to get away with anything, but I've come to the conclusion that this is something we need desperately. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. From domelouann at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 14:24:58 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 08:24:58 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 7:51 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Gwynne: Yes, not only is Ivan safe, but he's given his children the > incredible > gift of being safe from plots and suspicion. Ivan spent thirty years in the > shadow of the throne, avoiding plots with a skill that brought admiration > from ImpSec. His children, and their children, will never have to calculate > how many steps they are from the throne, or fend off plotters with a > predatory gleam in their eyes. > It seems that Gregor's oldest (I assume they started a male heir immediately, because Barrayar) would be a couple of years older at least than any children of Ivan and Tej. We have what, at least two princes and a princess by the time of Gardens of Vashnoi? I would hope and expect that by the time Ivan's children are adults, they'd be so far down the chain of inheritance that it wouldn't matter nearly as much anyway. Same deal with Miles' kids. From kawyle at att.net Wed Jul 13 14:41:43 2022 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 13:41:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Uterine Replicators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1784795963.626143.1657719703681@mail.yahoo.com> I'll have my fingers crossed tight that these work out with minimal delays. Karen A. Wyle On Wednesday, July 13, 2022 at 09:25:03 AM EDT, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: There is a Dutch company (spun off from a university) that is planning on starting clinical trials in 2024. I am literally praying that we won't have to wait 700 years for actuality. Yes, there will be problems and we will have people (like Van Atta) who will try to get away with anything, but I've come to the conclusion that this is something we need desperately. William A Wenrich ? *? A sinner dependent on God?s grace. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 15:27:05 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 14:27:05 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just spent an hour writing the commentary. It was clever, insightful, and an absolute gem. Honest. Then I sneezed, hit the wrong button, and the whole damn thing vanished. Yes, I checked drafts. I was actually IN drafts, because I'd already had one little problem. But this time it was irretrievably gone. GONE. Dammit. There will be no chapter tonight. I'll try again tomorrow. Sorry. From fishman at panix.com Wed Jul 13 15:40:30 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 14:40:30 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gwynne, how do you write your stuff? Do you happen to use Microsoft Word? There is an autosave feature that can save your work every few seconds. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ >From "Gwynne Powell" To "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk" Date 7/13/2022 10:27:05 AM Subject [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 > > >I just spent an hour writing the commentary. It was clever, insightful, >and an absolute gem. Honest. > >Then I sneezed, hit the wrong button, and the whole damn thing vanished. > >Yes, I checked drafts. I was actually IN drafts, because I'd already had one >little problem. But this time it was irretrievably gone. GONE. > >Dammit. > >There will be no chapter tonight. I'll try again tomorrow. > >Sorry. >-- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From lbujold at myinfmail.com Wed Jul 13 16:23:27 2022 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 10:23:27 -0500 Subject: [LMB] recovery tricks was Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 Message-ID: <768f50ad-fa58-1079-669b-8c8bc7c6e050@myinfmail.com> [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 Gwynne Powell gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 15:27:05 BST 2022 I just spent an hour writing the commentary. It was clever, insightful, and an absolute gem. Honest. Then I sneezed, hit the wrong button, and the whole damn thing vanished. ?LMB:? Undoubtedly too late now, but remember the "ctrl-z" trick next time -- in fact, make a test paragraph and try it out several ways to fix in your mind how it works.? Especially helpful, I find, in composing email in Gmail, which is very twitchy.? But you have to remember it in time.? It only does 1 step at a time, but you can go back many steps, repeating ctrl-z, before it hits a wall.? Good for moments like having selected a paragraph to move only to have it delete instead.? Ctrl-z will get it back. Others may have other suggestions for various scenarios. Ta, L. From wawenri at msn.com Wed Jul 13 16:30:53 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 15:30:53 +0000 Subject: [LMB] [strategypage] OT: this is TRULY frightening In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Comment on hundred year floods, that doesn?t mean that, if you have one, you won?t have another for a hundred years. It just means that, looking at the data they have, there is about a 1% chance of having that big a flood in any given year. Then you have to check out how much data they have. For Europe and China there?s some data for two thousand plus years for some places. There?s anecdotal evidence but nothing concrete. There were no thermometers or rain gauges a thousand years ago. In the Americas, there is evidence of at least one 200 year drought. I've seen articles that suggest that the droughts we have had here in Albuquerque recently are not really droughts but t William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 6:39:36 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] [strategypage] OT: this is TRULY frightening From: Raymond Collins Wow! Seriously, this is climate change writ large. We are seeing Lake Mead still shrinking with without a end in sight. We are reaching a point where we may have to make personal sacrifices such as air conditioning, water usage and other activities that dump more greenhouse gas into the atmosphere. On top of that, the official population of Earth is supposed to reach 8 billion very soon. India is set to surpass China in population. And of course the Supremes just weakened the EPA. The good news? There are some old mobsters sweating in Las Vegas. Gwynne: A few years ago Australia had been through more than a decade of drought. Some country towns had no water. Bushfires (forest fires) were a double tragedy, using precious water to put them out. Cities were on water restriction - no garden watering, no car washing. The government was giving us free plumbers to fix dripping taps, and free low-usage shower heads. They were making plans for desalination plants. Warragamba Dam, that supplies most of Sydney's water, was lower than it had ever been. We were told, by experts, that Warragamba would never be full again, and we'd probably have water restrictions for the rest of our lives. A few years later Warragamba is overflowing, making the floods even worse, and we've had three once-in-a-hundred-year floods in a year. There's a campaign to make the dam wall higher, so that it won't have to release water during heavy rains, instead of making the floods worse. So I'm not all that impressed by experts. Yes, we need them. And many of them, or at least some of them, are well-informed and reliable. But we always have to be careful about believing them - sure, listen to what they say, make plans, but just be ready for the world to tip things over. You never know what's around the corner (or coming down the river.) -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C65a6106b487543ef304908da64ccc63a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637933127912325914%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MzSqOXF6%2BjeGG%2BQBsS6PD3%2B3FFrP86Lt4wOgfQZrQkI%3D&reserved=0 From wawenri at msn.com Wed Jul 13 16:34:05 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 15:34:05 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do we have text confirming high fractional C capabilities? William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 6:45:57 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments From: Raymond Collins I could see someone getting vengeance with Jackson's Whole useing a stealthed asteroid moving at relativistic speeds. Vengeance is a dish best served cold. Gwynne: If it's so easy for us to imagine someone using a ship or asteroid to seriously dent a planet, then I'd imagine that a few thousand years from now they have warning systems and planetary defences. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cd32b27091f0e4ebe63ad08da64cda906%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637933131707420507%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=slJ%2BQfAJn0GT8RjTM0A6wPJ9lOOGxMrFUwMhrBaTz4k%3D&reserved=0 From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 16:42:09 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 15:42:09 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Louann Miller It seems that Gregor's oldest (I assume they started a male heir immediately, because Barrayar) would be a couple of years older at least than any children of Ivan and Tej. We have what, at least two princes and a princess by the time of Gardens of Vashnoi? I would hope and expect that by the time Ivan's children are adults, they'd be so far down the chain of inheritance that it wouldn't matter nearly as much anyway. Same deal with Miles' kids. Gwynne: That's true, but Vordarian and Vordrozda were some way down the list, and each of them made a grab for power. And ImpSec will therefore be suspicious of anyone who's on the list.... but Ivan's kids won't have that stress. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 16:43:26 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 15:43:26 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Harvey Gwynne, how do you write your stuff? Do you happen to use Microsoft Word? There is an autosave feature that can save your work every few seconds. Harvey Gwynne: I write it directly into the email. I find that if I do it in Word first, it ends up with weird punctuation when I cut and paste it into the email. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 16:44:55 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 15:44:55 +0000 Subject: [LMB] recovery tricks was Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Lois Bujold ?LMB:? Undoubtedly too late now, but remember the "ctrl-z" trick next time -- in fact, make a test paragraph and try it out several ways to fix in your mind how it works.? Especially helpful, I find, in composing email in Gmail, which is very twitchy.? But you have to remember it in time.? It only does 1 step at a time, but you can go back many steps, repeating ctrl-z, before it hits a wall.? Good for moments like having selected a paragraph to move only to have it delete instead.? Ctrl-z will get it back. Others may have other suggestions for various scenarios. Ta, L. Gwynne: Thank you! I knew there was something, but I couldn't remember what it was! From wawenri at msn.com Wed Jul 13 16:51:26 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 15:51:26 +0000 Subject: [LMB] l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <310838505.1663474.1657121470412@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: But they already have bio weapons that can melt bones. I?m certain that they could sterilize a planet. IIRC, there?s a line in one of the books about a mutual assured destruction stand-off between the Star Creche and the rest of the nexus. Something about bio weapons being not the only type of weapon. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Raymond Collins Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2022 6:39:07 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments That would be terrifying. Some secret base way off in the frozen northern hinterlands with horrible mutant monsters ready to boil up and take Jackson's Whole over ruled over by a insane Haut queen with vengeance on her twisted thoughts. On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 10:31 AM Karen A. Wyle wrote: > A fanfic waiting to happen! > Karen A. Wyle > On Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 11:20:01 AM EDT, Eric Oppen < > ravenclaweric at gmail.com> wrote: > > Now I'm picturing an embittered, renegade Haut running off to Jackson's > Whole to do experiments that the Star Creche has forbidden. > > "Ha! Those FOOLS! They LAUGHED AT ME! They SNEERED at my wonderful > ideas! They kicked me out of Eta Ceta! They said I was MAD! MAD, do you > hear? Well, now I've got all the resources I ever wanted, and with these > resources, I'll SHOW THEM! I'll SHOW THEM ALL! BWAHAHAHA!" > > The scary thing is, I can easily envision Jacksonian barons who're ruthless > enough, and short-sighted enough, to take such a Haut in. That baron > might soon find out that the servant has become the master. "Yeth, Haut > Silvio! What does mathter want?" (A Haut renegade who'd really gone over > the edge would probably be building his or her own minions.) > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cee4dc12b0bca453e5a6708da64682642%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637932695735507554%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gT87A4lUf6jAIinht7MOD0PzxndpteArbry8GZtchvU%3D&reserved=0 > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cee4dc12b0bca453e5a6708da64682642%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637932695735507554%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gT87A4lUf6jAIinht7MOD0PzxndpteArbry8GZtchvU%3D&reserved=0 From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 16:53:43 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 15:53:43 +0000 Subject: [LMB] [strategypage] OT: this is TRULY frightening In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: WILLIAM A WENRICH Comment on hundred year floods, that doesn?t mean that, if you have one, you won?t have another for a hundred years. It just means that, looking at the data they have, there is about a 1% chance of having that big a flood in any given year. Then you have to check out how much data they have. For Europe and China there?s some data for two thousand plus years for some places. There?s anecdotal evidence but nothing concrete. There were no thermometers or rain gauges a thousand years ago. In the Americas, there is evidence of at least one 200 year drought. I've seen articles that suggest that the droughts we have had here in Albuquerque recently are not really droughts but t William A Wenrich Gwynne: 'Hundred year flood' means a flood of a certain height - nearly 15m here. We get small floods quite often, and certain low areas are inundated, but the bridges aren't usually cut. 'Hundred-year-flood' means a flood so high that it'll only happen once a century. But, as I say, we're up to about 2322 now. Rain and weather patterns have changed a great deal; we've always had droughts and floods, but in the last decade or so things have become more extreme; hotter summers, worse fires, nastier droughts, bigger floods. We only have a couple of centuries of solid data, so we just have to look at patterns in the other parts of the world. Basically, it's all going crazy. From wawenri at msn.com Wed Jul 13 16:54:29 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 15:54:29 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You might try setting the Word for plain text only. I get weird punctuation and I?m typing into Outlook set to text only. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 9:43:26 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 From: Harvey Gwynne, how do you write your stuff? Do you happen to use Microsoft Word? There is an autosave feature that can save your work every few seconds. Harvey Gwynne: I write it directly into the email. I find that if I do it in Word first, it ends up with weird punctuation when I cut and paste it into the email. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C89b177af9a484621af8608da64e6743a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637933238204989266%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=6qhA%2Bv%2FCzwxYByNIf4x1XaMwcIaV31MVBb268Ich3ks%3D&reserved=0 From kcollett at hamilton.edu Wed Jul 13 16:59:24 2022 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Katherine Collett) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 11:59:24 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 14 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1B308C0C-1D78-4544-BA4B-9EDF9970C5E2@hamilton.edu> On Jul 13, 2022, at 12:18 AM, Damien Sullivan wrote: > > ?On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 02:38:03AM +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: > >> factor in his development. People underestimate Miles because they don't >> realise that his mental parameters are so different; how many people would >> advise a middle-ranking officer to go straight to the Emperor? It simply wouldn't > > Though that was probably less "Miles, the hyper manic-depressive genius" > and more "Miles, the guy raised with the Emperor by the Regent". Like > Ivan telling Dono to go to Gregor, much later. Less Miles specifically, > more elite status and assumption of access. Yes. Same thing happens in less elite levels; when I was in college, I noticed that some of my classmates were very reluctant to go to their professors to ask anything, whereas both my parents were professors, so it seemed very natural and unintimidating to me. Katherine From baur at chello.at Wed Jul 13 17:20:00 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 18:20:00 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: <1001321312.563460.1657694807771@mail.yahoo.com> References: <100245369.464147.1657095660006@webmail.mymagenta.at> <1371042738.485965.1657105451278@webmail.mymagenta.at> <4e22eea4-7670-c782-f79a-69733f0ae65d@chello.at> <1001321312.563460.1657694807771@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3a47276d-3533-aebb-7eb7-8a32af85dcc9@chello.at> yes - if you just want to kill a planet, even a small ship at a high fraction of c is more then enough with an asteroid you have good chances to induce something closely resembling a nova (you are adding a LOT of energy to sun very quickly) - at a minimum you will blow off a large bit of the photosphere, resulting in an absolutely gargatuan flare / CME, toasting half a solar system servus markus Am 13.07.2022 um 08:46 schrieb Richard Molpus: > > If you do the math, any decent sized freighter will give a planet a nuclear winter for 5 - 10 years. > > On Wednesday, July 13, 2022 at 01:22:02 AM CDT, Raymond Collins wrote: > > I could see someone getting vengeance with Jackson's Whole useing a > stealthed asteroid moving at relativistic speeds. Vengeance is a dish best > served cold. > > On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 2:14 PM Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > >> >> >> Am 06.07.2022 um 20:55 schrieb Damien Sullivan: >>> On Wed, Jul 06, 2022 at 01:04:11PM +0200, Bujold list wrote: >>>> there are two interesting things about RKV >>>> >>>> 1. you do not need to send them through a jump point - they can come at >> your opponent through normal space (if you are patient enough) >>> >>> That takes years, and extremely precise aiming, or far-end correction >>> motors which make the rock much more detectable when activated. >> >> you use the entire ship as an RKV impactor - so there is enough engine >> power for course corrections .. (plus perhaps a little live boat for >> escape if you plan to add a crew .. but if you have a crew its probably >> a suicide ride - final revenge for killed home world) >> >>> Given effects of stellar gravity over years, the 'precise aiming' might >>> not even be possible. >> >> ideally you keep accelerating and doing course correction all the way - >> the ideal engine for this kind of application would be a Bussard ramjet >> >> servus >> >> markus >>> >>> -xx- Damien X-) >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From margdean56 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 17:37:33 2022 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 10:37:33 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Assassins of Thasalon In-Reply-To: References: <3C9E2371-1A07-4396-A16E-96F542532EA2@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 12:52 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > I got my copy today, as well. It too was in a box full of styrofoam peanuts > wrapped in a bubble baggie bag. And it was packed by Emmy. The number of my > book is 666. > Emmy packed mine, too! :) --Margaret Dean From rgmolpus at flash.net Wed Jul 13 18:05:21 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:05:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <207367859.711181.1657731921393@mail.yahoo.com> From textev, given the is-system distances and travel times, Vorkoverse ships must be capable of high fractional C velocities. Unless jump points are really close to planets, so the transit times are minimal, and given the size of the spacecraft involved, the energy is available for High-C travel. See the entry on Space Weaponry http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacegunconvent.php#kinetickill In the Atomic Rocket's website. Rick Robinson's First Law of Space Combat states that: RICK ROBINSON'S FIRST LAW OF SPACE COMBAT An object impacting at 3 km/sec delivers kinetic energy equal to its mass in TNT. Rick Robinson In other words there are 4,500,000 joules in one kilogram of TNT (3,0002m/s * 0.5 = 4.5e6). This means a stupid bolder traveling at 2,000 km/sec relative has about 400 kilo-Ricks of damage (i.e., each ton of rock will do the damage equivalent of 2e12 / 4.5e6 = 400 kilotons of TNT or about 20 Hiroshima bombs combined). Lucas Haroche was right that the plotters behind the 'Yarrow incident' hadn't needed to add explosives to the ship they planned to crash into central Vorbarr Sultana. It would have impacted with the force of a few hundred Hiroshima blasts. Quite sufficent. On Wednesday, July 13, 2022 at 10:34:21 AM CDT, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: Do we have text confirming high fractional C capabilities? William A Wenrich ? *? A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 6:45:57 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments From: Raymond Collins I could see someone getting vengeance with Jackson's Whole useing a stealthed asteroid moving at relativistic speeds. Vengeance is a dish best served cold. Gwynne: If it's so easy for us to imagine someone using a ship or asteroid to seriously dent a planet, then I'd imagine that a few thousand years from now they have warning systems and planetary defences. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cd32b27091f0e4ebe63ad08da64cda906%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637933131707420507%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=slJ%2BQfAJn0GT8RjTM0A6wPJ9lOOGxMrFUwMhrBaTz4k%3D&reserved=0 -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Wed Jul 13 18:11:07 2022 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 10:11:07 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D3E0CF8-A130-456D-A7EB-344D40165EF9@comcast.net> On Jul 13, 2022, at 8:34 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > (re: relativistic strikes on planets) > Do we have text confirming high fractional C capabilities? > > William A Wenrich > You will need external power sources to get high fractional C velocities. There is also no need for those velocities. One g continuous acceleration is quite sufficient for interplanetary distances (2 weeks to Pluto might be a long haul, but only to a population used to moving about a planet in mere hours). "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 18:20:45 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:20:45 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: markus baur Gwynne: I've trimmed this thread a bit, but.... am I the only one who's slightly unsettled at the enthusiasm with which some of you are planning planetary destruction? It's not just that you know several ways to do it, but that you're so happy about the whole idea. yes - if you just want to kill a planet, even a small ship at a high fraction of c is more then enough with an asteroid you have good chances to induce something closely resembling a nova (you are adding a LOT of energy to sun very quickly) - at a minimum you will blow off a large bit of the photosphere, resulting in an absolutely gargatuan flare / CME, toasting half a solar system markus Am 13.07.2022 um 08:46 schrieb Richard Molpus: > If you do the math, any decent sized freighter will give a planet a nuclear winter for 5 - 10 years. > On Wednesday, July 13, 2022 at 01:22:02 AM CDT, Raymond Collins wrote: > I could see someone getting vengeance with Jackson's Whole useing a > stealthed asteroid moving at relativistic speeds. Vengeance is a dish best > served cold. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 18:23:07 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 12:23:07 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 8 - comments too In-Reply-To: References: <2b72a592-2668-1d15-3df8-8e20d11465d4@chello.at> Message-ID: AIUI, Jack Sparrow isn't as drunk as people think. It's just that, on land, he seems unsteady because he's still got his "sea legs." On watercraft, he's perfectly steady. If I'd been there to see him squaring up against the Kraken, with nothing but his sword, I'd have turned to the others and said "I take back every bad thing I ever said or thought about him!" On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 1:13 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > I think Jack Sparrow would be at a disadvantage being drunk and all. > > On Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 2:19 PM Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > a few light years should be sufficient - as long as you have a fast > > courier standing by as escape vehicle > > > > servus > > > > markus > > > > Am 25.06.2022 um 21:14 schrieb Eric Oppen: > > > Captain Jack Sparrow vs. Miles Vorkosigan? > > > > > > I'd like to watch. From a good safe distance away. > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 1:38 PM Pat Mathews wrote: > > > > > >> There was a Hagar the Horrible cartoon a few days ago which is to that > > >> point. Some king or other called Hagar "a complete barbarian." He took > > it > > >> as high praise. > > >> ________________________________ > > >> From: Lois-Bujold on behalf > of > > >> WalterStuartBushell > > >> Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2022 12:30 PM > > >> To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > > >> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > > >> Subject: Re: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 8 - comments too > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> On Jun 25, 2022, at 12:25 PM, Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < > > >> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> if you need a haut genealogy you do not consult a genalogist, you > > >> consult the the Star Creche archivist / research librarian > > >> > > >> And you better have a good reason and need to know, that is one that > the > > >> Haut finds good, > > >> or you?ll just get a Hauty response. > > >> > > >> Of curse it?s doubtful that anyone not Haut will be given the > > information. > > >> > > >> Not an Empire that anyone has been given to spend their birthday dream > > on, > > >> that I recall, > > >> despite the beauty of the Celestial Garden. Compared to the Cetagandan > > >> Empire, the Jackson's > > >> Whole looks unprofessional and crude. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com > > >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > >> -- > > >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > >> > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rgmolpus at flash.net Wed Jul 13 18:25:15 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:25:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: <0D3E0CF8-A130-456D-A7EB-344D40165EF9@comcast.net> References: <0D3E0CF8-A130-456D-A7EB-344D40165EF9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1021482719.718511.1657733115598@mail.yahoo.com> AS travel time between known places is listed in Canon (forex: one week including jumps between Barrayar and Komarr), high speeds (sub-C) are certainly possible in this universe. On Wednesday, July 13, 2022 at 12:12:28 PM CDT, Robert Woodward wrote: On Jul 13, 2022, at 8:34 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > (re: relativistic strikes on planets) > Do we have text confirming high fractional C capabilities? > > William A Wenrich > You will need external power sources to get high fractional C velocities. There is also no need for those velocities. One g continuous acceleration is quite sufficient for interplanetary distances (2 weeks to Pluto might be a long haul, but only to a population used to moving about a planet in mere hours). "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From wawenri at msn.com Wed Jul 13 18:29:24 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:29:24 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Earth is altogether too small a basket to put all of our eggs in. I was going to say RAH, but I?m not sure that he was the first or only. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 11:20:45 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments From: markus baur Gwynne: I've trimmed this thread a bit, but.... am I the only one who's slightly unsettled at the enthusiasm with which some of you are planning planetary destruction? It's not just that you know several ways to do it, but that you're so happy about the whole idea. yes - if you just want to kill a planet, even a small ship at a high fraction of c is more then enough with an asteroid you have good chances to induce something closely resembling a nova (you are adding a LOT of energy to sun very quickly) - at a minimum you will blow off a large bit of the photosphere, resulting in an absolutely gargatuan flare / CME, toasting half a solar system markus Am 13.07.2022 um 08:46 schrieb Richard Molpus: > If you do the math, any decent sized freighter will give a planet a nuclear winter for 5 - 10 years. > On Wednesday, July 13, 2022 at 01:22:02 AM CDT, Raymond Collins wrote: > I could see someone getting vengeance with Jackson's Whole useing a > stealthed asteroid moving at relativistic speeds. Vengeance is a dish best > served cold. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C61331e99175d445801da08da64f40db3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637933296616280917%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=SzaKSMm8TJkHilMj1zIaFnXDpo%2B2L6PaNuWLpSvw6t4%3D&reserved=0 From baur at chello.at Wed Jul 13 18:34:46 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 19:34:46 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21a0c40d-b5e2-ead0-7bcc-0b5917670610@chello.at> Am 13.07.2022 um 14:45 schrieb Gwynne Powell: > From: Raymond Collins > > I could see someone getting vengeance with Jackson's Whole useing a > stealthed asteroid moving at relativistic speeds. Vengeance is a dish best > served cold. > > Gwynne: If it's so easy for us to imagine someone using a ship or asteroid > to seriously dent a planet, then I'd imagine that a few thousand years from > now they have warning systems and planetary defences. it is easy for someone to imagine an ICBM (i believe the earliest ideas for such turned up in the 1920-ires) - intercepting and disabling it is entire different thing, something that only very few countries have the technology to do one of the problems with relativistic kill vehicles is even completely vaporizing it will not eliminate the threat - you have just turned the vehicle into a huge burst of VERY lethal radiation - heavy ions at a very high fraction of c, which basically is cosmic radiation servus markus -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From beatrice_otter at zoho.com Wed Jul 13 18:35:36 2022 From: beatrice_otter at zoho.com (Beatrice Otter) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 10:35:36 -0700 Subject: [LMB] recovery tricks was Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <181f8a167d3.ef97b565132082.3120525131962987600@zoho.com> From: Lois Bujold LMB:? Undoubtedly too late now, but remember the "ctrl-z" trick next time -- in fact, make a test paragraph and try it out several ways to fix in your mind how it works. Beatrice Otter: I use ctrl- commands all the time, and am baffled how few people seem to know them: ctrl-z (undo) ctrl-x (cut) ctrl-c (copy) ctrl-r (reload) ctrl-a (select all) ctrl-v (paste) ctrl-b (bold) ctrl-u (underline) ctrl-i (italics) ctrl-s (save) ctrl-f (find) ctrl-n (opens new document) ctrl-o (opens an old document) ctrl-t (new tab, in most browsers) ctrl-shift-t (bring back the last tab closed) On the "recovering text" side of things, if you are typing text into a browser for ANYTHING (including email) I HIGHLY recommend getting a form recovery extension. Every browser I know of has multiple options, and they save everything you type into a form or text box using that browser, so if something goes wrong (a crash, hitting the wrong button and closing the tab, etc.) you can just go into the extension and it will have everything you just typed saved. With Word, the most common thing in it that will introduce junk into the document when you paste it into a web format are "smart" quotes. You know how, when you're typing in word, the quotes will automatically curve towards the text they're quoting? Those are smart quotes (aka curly quotes). If the quotes stay perfectly vertical and are identical whether they're opening or closing a quotation, they are fine. Word is set to automatically turn regular quotes into curly quotes as you type, but you can change that in settings. Doing that will eliminate the vast majority of cases where Word puts in stuff that will bork an html interface. Now, Word will have a whole bunch of junk still that's invisible, but if you're worried about that saving as plain text (.txt) will eliminate all of that. So will copying and pasting into Notepad (and then copying and pasting from there into the final place it's going). Beatrice Otter From baur at chello.at Wed Jul 13 18:42:56 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 19:42:56 +0200 Subject: [LMB] [strategypage] OT: this is TRULY frightening In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Am 13.07.2022 um 17:30 schrieb WILLIAM A WENRICH: > Comment on hundred year floods, that doesn?t mean that, if you have one, you won?t have another for a hundred years. It just means that, looking at the data they have, there is about a 1% chance of having that big a flood in any given year. > Then you have to check out how much data they have. For Europe and China there?s some data for two thousand plus years for some places. There?s anecdotal evidence but nothing concrete. that depends on how you define anecdotal .. for example records on avalanches in austria go back more than 1 years in some places - old church records containing: the family at this and that farm was killed by a avalanche - and the name and location of the farm is MUCH more stable than the name of family farming it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_name#Hofname_(estate_name) and you can trace them backwards in church records, even if the farm#s name changes servus markus There were no thermometers or rain gauges a thousand years ago. In the Americas, there is evidence of at least one 200 year drought. > I've seen articles that suggest that the droughts we have had here in Albuquerque recently are not really droughts but t > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 6:39:36 AM > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Subject: [LMB] [strategypage] OT: this is TRULY frightening > > From: Raymond Collins > > Wow! Seriously, this is climate change writ large. We are seeing Lake Mead > still shrinking with without a end in sight. > We are reaching a point where we may have to make personal sacrifices such > as air conditioning, water usage and other activities that dump more > greenhouse gas into the atmosphere. On top of that, the official population > of Earth is supposed to reach 8 billion very soon. India is set to surpass > China in population. And of course the Supremes just weakened the EPA. > The good news? There are some old mobsters sweating in Las Vegas. > > Gwynne: A few years ago Australia had been through more than a decade of > drought. Some country towns had no water. Bushfires (forest fires) were a > double tragedy, using precious water to put them out. Cities were on water > restriction - no garden watering, no car washing. The government was > giving us free plumbers to fix dripping taps, and free low-usage shower heads. > They were making plans for desalination plants. Warragamba Dam, that supplies > most of Sydney's water, was lower than it had ever been. We were told, by > experts, that Warragamba would never be full again, and we'd probably have > water restrictions for the rest of our lives. > > A few years later Warragamba is overflowing, making the floods even worse, > and we've had three once-in-a-hundred-year floods in a year. There's a campaign > to make the dam wall higher, so that it won't have to release water during heavy > rains, instead of making the floods worse. > > So I'm not all that impressed by experts. Yes, we need them. And many of them, > or at least some of them, are well-informed and reliable. But we always have to > be careful about believing them - sure, listen to what they say, make plans, but > just be ready for the world to tip things over. You never know what's around the > corner (or coming down the river.) > > > > > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C65a6106b487543ef304908da64ccc63a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637933127912325914%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MzSqOXF6%2BjeGG%2BQBsS6PD3%2B3FFrP86Lt4wOgfQZrQkI%3D&reserved=0 -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From baur at chello.at Wed Jul 13 19:06:22 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 20:06:22 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b2947bb-72bb-1b66-333c-1034519e9eae@chello.at> Am 13.07.2022 um 19:20 schrieb Gwynne Powell: > From: markus baur > > Gwynne: I've trimmed this thread a bit, but.... am I the only one who's > slightly unsettled at the enthusiasm with which some of you are planning > planetary destruction? It's not just that you know several ways to do it, but > that you're so happy about the whole idea. gwynne - i think you are completely misunderstanding my tone .. i am not enthusiastic about this class of weapons - they are horribly dangerous and potentially very destabilizing, so i am not gushing happily about them but if they ARE possible in the Vorkosiverse (or any other SF-verse) one needs to think about them - if only for the author to figure out a way to prevent their existence (this is one of the major problems with the Honorverse - the missiles they are using in the 100.000-ends for space combat ARE RKVs and can easily be used to sterilize planets, even without their XRASER warheads) this is a problem that basically plagues any SF-verse that uses reactionless drives i try to be as neutral about this as possible .. but it is something that needs to be thought .. http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacegunexotic.php scroll down to relativistc weapons also: http://projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/planetaryattack.php servus markus > > yes - if you just want to kill a planet, even a small ship at a high > fraction of c is more then enough > with an asteroid you have good chances to induce something closely > resembling a nova (you are adding a LOT of energy to sun very quickly) - > at a minimum you will blow off a large bit of the photosphere, resulting > in an absolutely gargatuan flare / CME, toasting half a solar system > markus > > Am 13.07.2022 um 08:46 schrieb Richard Molpus: >> If you do the math, any decent sized freighter will give a planet a nuclear winter for 5 - 10 years. > >> On Wednesday, July 13, 2022 at 01:22:02 AM CDT, Raymond Collins wrote: >> I could see someone getting vengeance with Jackson's Whole useing a >> stealthed asteroid moving at relativistic speeds. Vengeance is a dish best >> served cold. > -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From baur at chello.at Wed Jul 13 19:11:59 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 20:11:59 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Am 13.07.2022 um 19:29 schrieb WILLIAM A WENRICH: > Earth is altogether too small a basket to put all of our eggs in. yes, Yes, YES! > I was going to say RAH, but I?m not sure that he was the first or only. i think the idea is older, but he put it in to words so well there are things (natural ones too) in the universe that are so dangerous that the only safe place is a long distance away - measured AT LEAST in light years servus markus > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 11:20:45 AM > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments > > From: markus baur > > Gwynne: I've trimmed this thread a bit, but.... am I the only one who's > slightly unsettled at the enthusiasm with which some of you are planning > planetary destruction? It's not just that you know several ways to do it, but > that you're so happy about the whole idea. > > yes - if you just want to kill a planet, even a small ship at a high > fraction of c is more then enough > with an asteroid you have good chances to induce something closely > resembling a nova (you are adding a LOT of energy to sun very quickly) - > at a minimum you will blow off a large bit of the photosphere, resulting > in an absolutely gargatuan flare / CME, toasting half a solar system > markus > > Am 13.07.2022 um 08:46 schrieb Richard Molpus: >> If you do the math, any decent sized freighter will give a planet a nuclear winter for 5 - 10 years. > >> On Wednesday, July 13, 2022 at 01:22:02 AM CDT, Raymond Collins wrote: >> I could see someone getting vengeance with Jackson's Whole useing a >> stealthed asteroid moving at relativistic speeds. Vengeance is a dish best >> served cold. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C61331e99175d445801da08da64f40db3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637933296616280917%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=SzaKSMm8TJkHilMj1zIaFnXDpo%2B2L6PaNuWLpSvw6t4%3D&reserved=0 -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 19:57:38 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 13:57:38 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Assassins of Thasalon In-Reply-To: References: <3C9E2371-1A07-4396-A16E-96F542532EA2@comcast.net> Message-ID: I sent a email to Subterranean press thanking Emmy. Wonder if she she got it. On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 11:37 AM Margaret Dean wrote: > On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 12:52 AM Raymond Collins > wrote: > > > I got my copy today, as well. It too was in a box full of styrofoam > peanuts > > wrapped in a bubble baggie bag. And it was packed by Emmy. The number of > my > > book is 666. > > > > Emmy packed mine, too! :) > > > --Margaret Dean > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 20:02:26 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 14:02:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 8 - comments too In-Reply-To: References: <2b72a592-2668-1d15-3df8-8e20d11465d4@chello.at> Message-ID: I have to watch "Pirates of the Caribbean," again. Of course I may biased since Johnny Depp got himself in such a mess. I hate it when reality invades my fantasy. On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 12:23 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > AIUI, Jack Sparrow isn't as drunk as people think. It's just that, on > land, he seems unsteady because he's still got his "sea legs." On > watercraft, he's perfectly steady. > > If I'd been there to see him squaring up against the Kraken, with nothing > but his sword, I'd have turned to the others and said "I take back every > bad thing I ever said or thought about him!" > > On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 1:13 AM Raymond Collins > wrote: > > > I think Jack Sparrow would be at a disadvantage being drunk and all. > > > > On Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 2:19 PM Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < > > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > a few light years should be sufficient - as long as you have a fast > > > courier standing by as escape vehicle > > > > > > servus > > > > > > markus > > > > > > Am 25.06.2022 um 21:14 schrieb Eric Oppen: > > > > Captain Jack Sparrow vs. Miles Vorkosigan? > > > > > > > > I'd like to watch. From a good safe distance away. > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 1:38 PM Pat Mathews > wrote: > > > > > > > >> There was a Hagar the Horrible cartoon a few days ago which is to > that > > > >> point. Some king or other called Hagar "a complete barbarian." He > took > > > it > > > >> as high praise. > > > >> ________________________________ > > > >> From: Lois-Bujold on > behalf > > of > > > >> WalterStuartBushell > > > >> Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2022 12:30 PM > > > >> To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > > > >> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > > > >> Subject: Re: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 8 - comments too > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> On Jun 25, 2022, at 12:25 PM, Markus Baur via Lois-Bujold < > > > >> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> if you need a haut genealogy you do not consult a genalogist, you > > > >> consult the the Star Creche archivist / research librarian > > > >> > > > >> And you better have a good reason and need to know, that is one that > > the > > > >> Haut finds good, > > > >> or you?ll just get a Hauty response. > > > >> > > > >> Of curse it?s doubtful that anyone not Haut will be given the > > > information. > > > >> > > > >> Not an Empire that anyone has been given to spend their birthday > dream > > > on, > > > >> that I recall, > > > >> despite the beauty of the Celestial Garden. Compared to the > Cetagandan > > > >> Empire, the Jackson's > > > >> Whole looks unprofessional and crude. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com > > > >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > >> -- > > > >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > > >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > >> > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 20:28:53 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 14:28:53 -0500 Subject: [LMB] [strategypage] OT: this is TRULY frightening In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We had two "hundred year" floods in less than a decade. The second flood decimated the city of Hamburg in Fremont county Iowa. So yes, what we are basically doing is putting heat energy via greenhouse gases into a complex chaotic system. Unfortunately this is affecting crops all over the world. On a side bar I picked up "Soylent Green" to watch and the 1972 view of 2022 was alot more dystopian then how 2022 really is. My philosophy of climate change is plan for the worst and hope for the best. On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 12:43 PM markus baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > Am 13.07.2022 um 17:30 schrieb WILLIAM A WENRICH: > > Comment on hundred year floods, that doesn?t mean that, if you have one, > you won?t have another for a hundred years. It just means that, looking at > the data they have, there is about a 1% chance of having that big a flood > in any given year. > > Then you have to check out how much data they have. For Europe and China > there?s some data for two thousand plus years for some places. There?s > anecdotal evidence but nothing concrete. > > that depends on how you define anecdotal .. > > for example records on avalanches in austria go back more than 1 years > in some places - old church records containing: the family at this and > that farm was killed by a avalanche - and the name and location of the > farm is MUCH more stable than the name of family farming it > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_name#Hofname_(estate_name) > > and you can trace them backwards in church records, even if the farm#s > name changes > > servus > > markus > > There were no thermometers or rain gauges a thousand years ago. In the > Americas, there is evidence of at least one 200 year drought. > > I've seen articles that suggest that the droughts we have had here in > Albuquerque recently are not really droughts but t > > > > William A Wenrich > > > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Gwynne Powell > > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 6:39:36 AM > > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > Subject: [LMB] [strategypage] OT: this is TRULY frightening > > > > From: Raymond Collins > > > > Wow! Seriously, this is climate change writ large. We are seeing Lake > Mead > > still shrinking with without a end in sight. > > We are reaching a point where we may have to make personal sacrifices > such > > as air conditioning, water usage and other activities that dump more > > greenhouse gas into the atmosphere. On top of that, the official > population > > of Earth is supposed to reach 8 billion very soon. India is set to > surpass > > China in population. And of course the Supremes just weakened the EPA. > > The good news? There are some old mobsters sweating in Las Vegas. > > > > Gwynne: A few years ago Australia had been through more than a decade of > > drought. Some country towns had no water. Bushfires (forest fires) were a > > double tragedy, using precious water to put them out. Cities were on > water > > restriction - no garden watering, no car washing. The government was > > giving us free plumbers to fix dripping taps, and free low-usage shower > heads. > > They were making plans for desalination plants. Warragamba Dam, that > supplies > > most of Sydney's water, was lower than it had ever been. We were told, by > > experts, that Warragamba would never be full again, and we'd probably > have > > water restrictions for the rest of our lives. > > > > A few years later Warragamba is overflowing, making the floods even > worse, > > and we've had three once-in-a-hundred-year floods in a year. There's a > campaign > > to make the dam wall higher, so that it won't have to release water > during heavy > > rains, instead of making the floods worse. > > > > So I'm not all that impressed by experts. Yes, we need them. And many of > them, > > or at least some of them, are well-informed and reliable. But we always > have to > > be careful about believing them - sure, listen to what they say, make > plans, but > > just be ready for the world to tip things over. You never know what's > around the > > corner (or coming down the river.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C65a6106b487543ef304908da64ccc63a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637933127912325914%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MzSqOXF6%2BjeGG%2BQBsS6PD3%2B3FFrP86Lt4wOgfQZrQkI%3D&reserved=0 > > > -- > markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg > schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 > a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at > austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E > > a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html > > "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 20:44:31 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 14:44:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not a big fan of planet killing weapons too. I just mentioned that it with the technology of the Vorkoverse to make it would possible. Whether it is feasible is another matter. On the other hand, us boys with our toys.???? On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 1:12 PM markus baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > Am 13.07.2022 um 19:29 schrieb WILLIAM A WENRICH: > > Earth is altogether too small a basket to put all of our eggs in. > > yes, Yes, YES! > > > I was going to say RAH, but I?m not sure that he was the first or only. > > i think the idea is older, but he put it in to words so well > > there are things (natural ones too) in the universe that are so > dangerous that the only safe place is a long distance away - measured AT > LEAST in light years > > servus > > markus > > > William A Wenrich > > > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Gwynne Powell > > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 11:20:45 AM > > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments > > > > From: markus baur > > > > Gwynne: I've trimmed this thread a bit, but.... am I the only one who's > > slightly unsettled at the enthusiasm with which some of you are planning > > planetary destruction? It's not just that you know several ways to do > it, but > > that you're so happy about the whole idea. > > > > yes - if you just want to kill a planet, even a small ship at a high > > fraction of c is more then enough > > with an asteroid you have good chances to induce something closely > > resembling a nova (you are adding a LOT of energy to sun very quickly) - > > at a minimum you will blow off a large bit of the photosphere, resulting > > in an absolutely gargatuan flare / CME, toasting half a solar system > > markus > > > > Am 13.07.2022 um 08:46 schrieb Richard Molpus: > >> If you do the math, any decent sized freighter will give a planet a > nuclear winter for 5 - 10 years. > > > >> On Wednesday, July 13, 2022 at 01:22:02 AM CDT, Raymond Collins < > rcrcoll6 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> I could see someone getting vengeance with Jackson's Whole useing a > >> stealthed asteroid moving at relativistic speeds. Vengeance is a dish > best > >> served cold. > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C61331e99175d445801da08da64f40db3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637933296616280917%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=SzaKSMm8TJkHilMj1zIaFnXDpo%2B2L6PaNuWLpSvw6t4%3D&reserved=0 > > > -- > markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg > schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 > a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at > austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E > > a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html > > "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 21:31:49 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 15:31:49 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: <21a0c40d-b5e2-ead0-7bcc-0b5917670610@chello.at> References: <21a0c40d-b5e2-ead0-7bcc-0b5917670610@chello.at> Message-ID: I'd think that destroying an inhabitable planet, much less one with a population, would get the Nexus to unite to hunt down and exterminate the people responsible. On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 12:34 PM markus baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > Am 13.07.2022 um 14:45 schrieb Gwynne Powell: > > From: Raymond Collins > > > > I could see someone getting vengeance with Jackson's Whole useing a > > stealthed asteroid moving at relativistic speeds. Vengeance is a dish > best > > served cold. > > > > Gwynne: If it's so easy for us to imagine someone using a ship or > asteroid > > to seriously dent a planet, then I'd imagine that a few thousand years > from > > now they have warning systems and planetary defences. > > it is easy for someone to imagine an ICBM (i believe the earliest ideas > for such turned up in the 1920-ires) - intercepting and disabling it is > entire different thing, something that only very few countries have the > technology to do > > one of the problems with relativistic kill vehicles is even completely > vaporizing it will not eliminate the threat - you have just turned the > vehicle into a huge burst of VERY lethal radiation - heavy ions at a > very high fraction of c, which basically is cosmic radiation > > servus > > markus > > > -- > markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg > schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 > a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at > austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E > > a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html > > "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Wed Jul 13 21:34:26 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 14:34:26 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jul 13, 2022, at 9:54 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > You might try setting the Word for plain text only. > I get weird punctuation and I?m typing into Outlook set to text only. Or use a text editor. Doe Windows come with a free one, Apple does. And there are other free text editors available for downloading (some want you to upgrade). From howard at brazee.net Wed Jul 13 21:37:34 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 14:37:34 -0600 Subject: [LMB] recovery tricks was Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 In-Reply-To: <181f8a167d3.ef97b565132082.3120525131962987600@zoho.com> References: <181f8a167d3.ef97b565132082.3120525131962987600@zoho.com> Message-ID: <6E4F202E-A608-46BD-958C-87F7845CA56D@brazee.net> > On Jul 13, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Beatrice Otter via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > I use ctrl- commands all the time, and am baffled how few people seem to know them: > > > > ctrl-r (reload) Most of those work on my Mac too. But what is ?reload?? From mvanspanje at home.nl Wed Jul 13 21:59:38 2022 From: mvanspanje at home.nl (Mieke) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 22:59:38 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67A0711B-BC45-4877-8216-7FB01261A9CA@home.nl> I don?t think they would. Too afraid to be the next victim. That?s what could happen if one could destroy worlds. At least that is what is happening now since the atom bombs. Mieke --------------------------------------------------------------------------Half of what we call madness is just some poor slob dealing with pain by a strategy that annoys the people around him - Lois McMaster Bujold. > Op 13 jul. 2022 om 22:32 heeft Eric Oppen het volgende geschreven: > > ?I'd think that destroying an inhabitable planet, much less one with a > population, would get the Nexus to unite to hunt down and exterminate the > people responsible. > >> On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 12:34 PM markus baur via Lois-Bujold < >> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> Am 13.07.2022 um 14:45 schrieb Gwynne Powell: >>> From: Raymond Collins >>> >>> I could see someone getting vengeance with Jackson's Whole useing a >>> stealthed asteroid moving at relativistic speeds. Vengeance is a dish >> best >>> served cold. >>> >>> Gwynne: If it's so easy for us to imagine someone using a ship or >> asteroid >>> to seriously dent a planet, then I'd imagine that a few thousand years >> from >>> now they have warning systems and planetary defences. >> >> it is easy for someone to imagine an ICBM (i believe the earliest ideas >> for such turned up in the 1920-ires) - intercepting and disabling it is >> entire different thing, something that only very few countries have the >> technology to do >> >> one of the problems with relativistic kill vehicles is even completely >> vaporizing it will not eliminate the threat - you have just turned the >> vehicle into a huge burst of VERY lethal radiation - heavy ions at a >> very high fraction of c, which basically is cosmic radiation >> >> servus >> >> markus >> >> >> -- >> markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg >> schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 >> a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at >> austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E >> >> a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html >> >> "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mvanspanje at home.nl > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From rgmolpus at flash.net Wed Jul 13 22:12:55 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 21:12:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <21a0c40d-b5e2-ead0-7bcc-0b5917670610@chello.at> Message-ID: <930064801.811455.1657746775350@mail.yahoo.com> In Diplomatic Immunity we get Miles opinion that the Hair could wipe out everybody with their bioweapons, but the threat that the survivors would use relativistic weapons on them keeps the peace. If we lose, you lose, is a real deterrence. Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 3:32 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: I'd think that destroying an inhabitable planet, much less one with a population,? would get the Nexus to unite to hunt down and exterminate the people responsible. From matt.msg at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 22:27:55 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:27:55 -0400 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: <2425b593-c9b9-5251-085f-7aa63364d19d@matija.com> Message-ID: Creators who don't know what they're trying to create don't achieve much of anything. Successful creators tend not to have precisely-defined goals, but do have a definite target they're aiming for. It's pretty clear that they're trying to develop an entire society, and by altering the most fundamental building blocks of society. Chromatophores are a mere engineering project that would change very little about human nature; furthermore, they could be engineered by anyone with enough effort. Trivial, by their standards. The haut seem to be interested in non-trivial problems only. Matt G. On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 3:37 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > There is a museum of art in Omaha, called Joslyn Art Museum, it has a > Jackon Pollock painting called, "Galaxy" which I stop and gaze at it. The > question is why did he stop- what was that thing in the picture that said > to Pollock, okay stop I'm finished. It is one of my favorites. > That's what I think will happen with the Cetagandans Hauts. They will > declare their work perfect one day, and the rest of the galaxy will look at > their creation and know, yes it is perfect, but they will scratch their > heads and say, "Well yes. But, why is it perfect?" > > On Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 8:54 PM Howard Brazee wrote: > > > > > > > > On Jul 12, 2022, at 7:51 PM, Raymond Collins > wrote: > > > > > > That might be something the Haut is working on. However it the Haut > might > > > consider that trivial. I think what the Haut are attempting to is to > > > create a work of art in a human form. They are not really certain what > > they > > > are creating but they'll know when it's done. > > > > Agreed. And they measure their individual contributions as we evaluate > > artists. > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to matt.msg at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From beatrice_otter at zoho.com Wed Jul 13 23:06:46 2022 From: beatrice_otter at zoho.com (Beatrice Otter) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 15:06:46 -0700 Subject: [LMB] recovery tricks was Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 In-Reply-To: <6E4F202E-A608-46BD-958C-87F7845CA56D@brazee.net> References: <181f8a167d3.ef97b565132082.3120525131962987600@zoho.com> <6E4F202E-A608-46BD-958C-87F7845CA56D@brazee.net> Message-ID: <181f999ab38.d12d74f9135267.4668151084684741494@zoho.com> ---- On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 13:37:34 -0700 Howard Brazee wrote --- > On Jul 13, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Beatrice Otter via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > I use ctrl- commands all the time, and am baffled how few people seem to know them: > > > > ctrl-r (reload) Most of those work on my Mac too. But what is ?reload?? Beatrice Otter: Reload the tab your internet browser is currently open to. That one, I admit, is one I mostly need to know so I can avoid hitting ctrl-r by accident when I'm trying to hit ctrl-t to get a new tab. Beatrice Otter From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 23:15:37 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:15:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 15 - Comments In-Reply-To: <478964995.566992.1657695042260@mail.yahoo.com> References: <478964995.566992.1657695042260@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My copy of Lois McMaster Bujold's book "Mile, Mystery & Mayhem" has an afterword in she describes the Cetagandans, ". . . In "Cetaganda", I explored disparate consequences of the same reproductive technologies (uterine replicators) in a very different social milieu. The Cetagandan haut use replicators and associated genetic engineering to construct their race's entire genome as a community property under strict central control. Although spread among many individuals, the genome becomes conceptualized as a work of of art being consciously sculpted by its haut-women guardians. Where this is finally going, even the haut women do not have the hubris to guess --- one of their few saving graces." The other two stories in "Mile! Mystery & Mayhem" has, Cetaganda, Ethan of Athos and Labyrinth, I'm already reading Ethan now. On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 1:50 AM Richard Molpus wrote: > This is the chapter that educated Miles into the important of a haut > woman's hair. > He uses that to his advantage in 'Diplomatic immunity' when he composes > the message to General Benin 'By Rian's hair, this is real'. Only someone > who had seen and worked with a Haut would know the importance of their > long hair - a personal way to tell Dag the message was really from Miles. > > On Tuesday, July 12, 2022 at 09:37:58 AM CDT, Gwynne Powell < > gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > Miles and Ivan had a lot of the same stressors; position, > political threats, etc; (and yes, Miles had the physical problem > as well) - but they've reacted so differently. Miles wants to > shine, to throw his success in their faces, while Ivan wants to > disappear. And, ironically, for a long time at least the opposite > happens; Ivan rises steadily to a very respectable position, while > Miles disappears and is seen only as a very minor officer in an > easy, nepotistic job. > > Benin is having a BRILLIANT day, and it's all due to Miles. He's not > quite sure how that came about, but he's keeping up as well as > he can. And he's a man who knows where power lies, and how to > respond; Naru hates the Star Creche like poison. Benin seems to > just accept them, and he managed to find the time, in that scramble > to get to Kety's ship, to scoop up some ghem-ladies, extra float > chairs, and whatever else the haut ladies might need. Yes, he knows > where the power is. > > And while Benin is having a great day, Vorreedi is so not. His career > has flashed before his eyes a few times - imagine being the man who > lost Aral Vorkosigan's son. And he really has no training in Miles- > wrangling (Ivan is brilliant at it, but as usual he does it so smoothly > that it's barely noticed.) Benin learns fast; he's not letting Miles out > of his sight. > > I love it that Miles has to remind himself that it's not his empire, he > can't sort out all the aftermath - he has to trust them to manage that > part of it. > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From huntkc at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 23:29:52 2022 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 18:29:52 -0400 Subject: [LMB] l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <310838505.1663474.1657121470412@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 11:51 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > But they already have bio weapons that can melt bones. I?m certain that > they could sterilize a planet. > IIRC, there?s a line in one of the books about a mutual assured > destruction stand-off between the Star Creche and the rest of the nexus. > Something about bio weapons being not the only type of weapon. > > Diplomatic Immunity, chapter 13, Miles speaking to Sealer Greenlaw: That is a problem much studied, at certain levels of my government. First, it would have alarmed the neighborhood. Bioweapons aren't the only kind. The Cetagandan Empire apparently wasn't ready to face a posse of people scared enough to combine to burn off their planets and sterilize every living microbe. There's a similar longish discussion in Gentleman Jole, also chapter 13. From huntkc at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 23:31:25 2022 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 18:31:25 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 11:34 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Do we have text confirming high fractional C capabilities? > > Explicitly yes, and rather frequently. Earliest in canon is The Warrior's Apprentice, at Tau Verde, where Ky Tung speaks of a 1/2-c meteor shower to take out Miles' refinery. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 23:37:01 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:37:01 -0500 Subject: [LMB] [strategypage] OT: this is TRULY frightening In-Reply-To: <51077DC9-CE3B-43A6-ABA0-A57DBB50835E@gmail.com> References: <56c12f58-3f54-9a8d-9a1e-2a432325b8ec@chello.at> <16ddab6e-a9b6-b56a-3277-2916d37f77d0@chello.at> <51077DC9-CE3B-43A6-ABA0-A57DBB50835E@gmail.com> Message-ID: True. But there are other factors that could affect Las Vegas such as power consumption. I do believe Las Vegas depends on a large percentage of its power from Hoover Dam. Even though the power grip in Nevada is integrated the loss of power from Hoover Dam might put a strain on it. Of course I don't know how far low the water level has to go before Hoover has to shut down. Hoit won't happen. On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 7:07 AM Alex Kwan wrote: > Hello, > > > On Jul 13, 2022, at 02:48, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > > Wow! Seriously, this is climate change writ large. We are seeing Lake > Mead > > still shrinking with without a end in sight. > > We are reaching a point where we may have to make personal sacrifices > such > > as air conditioning, water usage and other activities that dump more > > greenhouse gas into the atmosphere. On top of that, the official > population > > of Earth is supposed to reach 8 billion very soon. India is set to > surpass > > China in population. And of course the Supremes just weakened the EPA. > > The good news? There are some old mobsters sweating in Las Vegas. > > Yeah, I was watching a comedy news show that does do some deeper dives. > And while the Lake Mead situation is alarming, Las Vegas is actually quite > efficient in its water usage. For example, while the pretty famous huge > fountain in front of the hotel uses a lot of water, it?s actually too salty > for human consumption. Also, the city has supposedly banned decorative > grass lawns, etc. Other places that need the water in Lake Mead and along > the river might have to copy Las Vegas? water policy in the end. > > little Alex > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 23:47:30 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 17:47:30 -0500 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: <8C29A33F-8F48-4CEB-9FCB-DEB2E06C9441@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: There is a video of a couple who set their baby on a sea lion. Fortunately the baby was unhurt when she fell before the sea lion could bite her. Moral of the story 1. Don't fool around with sea lions. It's also illegal in California. 2. Definitely DON'T put your baby on the back of a sea lion. On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 7:42 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > It doesn?t have to be a predator. Witness those who pet bison. Any animal > (I was going to say wild , but this also applies to dogs, cats, horses, and > cows.) should be approached with appropriate caution. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Raymond Collins > Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2022 3:38:41 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? > > Ah yes, the getting eaten by a animal method of gene improvement. As far as > lions, tigers and bears (oh my) are concerned, they are the ones on top of > the food chain. I wonder if there is a Darwin award for hugging hungry > bears. > > On Sun, Jul 10, 2022, 1:49 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > > > In his old 'zine, *Murder Can be Fun,* John Marr wrote about how zoos > had a > > constant problem keeping their visitors away from the animals. People > > would insist on wanting to pet the nice bear or get into the cage with > the > > pretty big cat, thinking that it wouldn't harm them. And hilarity would > > ensue. > > > > I blame a lot of this on entertainment. Shows like *Gentle Ben, > > *children's > > stuff featuring anthropomorphic animals (with the clever prey animals > > always outwitting their stupid predator pursuers), stuff like that. > > > > On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 4:35 AM Raymond Collins > > wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 8:14 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH > wrote: > > > > > > > Remember the bit in Pocahontas that said that, if you meet a bear in > > the > > > > woods, put down your gun, walk up, and start playing with her cubs. > > > > > > > > William A Wenrich > > > > > > > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf > > of > > > > Katherine Collett > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2022 1:40:20 PM > > > > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. > > > > > > > Perhaps that was Pocahontas way of getting rid of these foreign > > > devils. > > > > > > > -- > > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C2f8e7e08fd244249fa3f08da644ef1de%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637932587474359947%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=F1eJIGvWdRWuN8EJcNQ46tLD3GsiEfwjZfG3ytObYP4%3D&reserved=0 > > > > -- > > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C2f8e7e08fd244249fa3f08da644ef1de%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637932587474359947%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=F1eJIGvWdRWuN8EJcNQ46tLD3GsiEfwjZfG3ytObYP4%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C2f8e7e08fd244249fa3f08da644ef1de%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637932587474359947%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=F1eJIGvWdRWuN8EJcNQ46tLD3GsiEfwjZfG3ytObYP4%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C2f8e7e08fd244249fa3f08da644ef1de%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637932587474359947%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=F1eJIGvWdRWuN8EJcNQ46tLD3GsiEfwjZfG3ytObYP4%3D&reserved=0 > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C2f8e7e08fd244249fa3f08da644ef1de%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637932587474359947%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=F1eJIGvWdRWuN8EJcNQ46tLD3GsiEfwjZfG3ytObYP4%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From saffronrose at me.com Wed Jul 13 23:57:54 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 15:57:54 -0700 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 13, 2022, at 3:47 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > ?There is a video of a couple who set their baby on a sea lion. Fortunately > the baby was unhurt when she fell before the sea lion could bite her. > Moral of the story 1. Don't fool around with sea lions. It's also > illegal in California. 2. Definitely DON'T put your baby on the back of a > sea lion. And stay very far away from elephant seals, whether or not it?s mating or calving/pupping season! They?re huge, toothed, and move faster than that bulk would lead you to believe. Marina From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 00:00:11 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 18:00:11 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Whose kids would be closer to the throne? Miles or Ivan? On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 10:42 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Louann Miller > > It seems that Gregor's oldest (I assume they started a male heir > immediately, because Barrayar) would be a couple of years older at least > than any children of Ivan and Tej. We have what, at least two princes and a > princess by the time of Gardens of Vashnoi? I would hope and expect that by > the time Ivan's children are adults, they'd be so far down the chain of > inheritance that it wouldn't matter nearly as much anyway. Same deal with > Miles' kids. > > Gwynne: That's true, but Vordarian and Vordrozda were some way down > the list, and each of them made a grab for power. And ImpSec will therefore > be suspicious of anyone who's on the list.... but Ivan's kids won't have > that stress. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 00:14:50 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 18:14:50 -0500 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And elephant seals too. People should consider large domesticated animals as dangerous. Even some domesticated animals are problematic. On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 5:58 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Jul 13, 2022, at 3:47 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > > ?There is a video of a couple who set their baby on a sea lion. > Fortunately > > the baby was unhurt when she fell before the sea lion could bite her. > > Moral of the story 1. Don't fool around with sea lions. It's also > > illegal in California. 2. Definitely DON'T put your baby on the back of > a > > sea lion. > > And stay very far away from elephant seals, whether or not it?s mating or > calving/pupping season! They?re huge, toothed, and move faster than that > bulk would lead you to believe. > > Marina > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From matt.msg at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 00:22:05 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 19:22:05 -0400 Subject: [LMB] [strategypage] OT: this is TRULY frightening In-Reply-To: References: <56c12f58-3f54-9a8d-9a1e-2a432325b8ec@chello.at> <16ddab6e-a9b6-b56a-3277-2916d37f77d0@chello.at> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 2:48 AM Raymond Collins wrote: > And of course the Supremes just weakened the EPA. > If you want the EPA to have sweeping power and authority, get your representatives to pass laws giving them such. I think you'd be wasting your time - like the avalanche in the video, some things cannot be stopped once they are started, and the really crippling problems started before either of us were born. But if you believe you can change things for the better, I encourage you to try - but that means not expecting someone else to solve things for us, and actually working the system instead of expecting ends-justify-the-means interpretations to just give us power for good causes. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 00:24:56 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 19:24:56 -0400 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Animals are unpredictable at best, and their thought processes are non-human. People treat animals as they do plants - as convenient props in the endless human drama - rather than independent entities with their own goals, priorities, and needs. I'd feel sorry for those babies, except I expect them to be just as dumb when they grow up as their caretakers are now. So, in a sense, they're getting what's coming to them - they only technically haven't earned it yet. Matt G. From tlambs1138 at charter.net Thu Jul 14 00:46:24 2022 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 16:46:24 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Quote and quotables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <092001d89712$c3949610$4abdc230$@charter.net> I am attempting to cut and paste from a Wordpad file to the list, which comes with Windows, to see if any weird punctuation shows up, One of the reasons I want to do this and have it work correctly is so I can write some of the Birthday Tixie greetings ahead of time and then copy and paste them into Outlook. "Run, Dr. Borgos, run, the creditors are after you!" To quote Emperor Gregor, "Let's see what happens." Jean Lamb tlambs1138 at charter.net https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20 From saffronrose at me.com Thu Jul 14 00:51:32 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 16:51:32 -0700 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59B66D21-5540-4B81-B4A4-4410B429B910@me.com> On Jul 13, 2022, at 4:24 PM, Matthew George wrote: > > ?Animals are unpredictable at best, and their thought processes are > non-human. People treat animals as they do plants - as convenient props in > the endless human drama - rather than independent entities with their own > goals, priorities, and needs. Like the tigers here: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/high-speed-rescue-two-tigers-raised-in-captivity-have-arrived-at-oakland-zoo/ar-AAZoiYA I hope the people who mistreated these animals and others like them succumb to a slow, incurable, and disfiguring wasting disease. I want their outer to reflect the evil cruelty they inflicted on these animals. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From howard at brazee.net Thu Jul 14 01:34:02 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 18:34:02 -0600 Subject: [LMB] recovery tricks was Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 In-Reply-To: <181f999ab38.d12d74f9135267.4668151084684741494@zoho.com> References: <181f8a167d3.ef97b565132082.3120525131962987600@zoho.com> <6E4F202E-A608-46BD-958C-87F7845CA56D@brazee.net> <181f999ab38.d12d74f9135267.4668151084684741494@zoho.com> Message-ID: <7AFD6DE9-0926-409F-B916-A1C323012F15@brazee.net> > On Jul 13, 2022, at 4:06 PM, Beatrice Otter via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Most of those work on my Mac too. But what is ?reload?? > > > Beatrice Otter: > Reload the tab your internet browser is currently open to. That one, I admit, is one I mostly need to know so I can avoid hitting ctrl-r by accident when I'm trying to hit ctrl-t to get a new tab. Application specific. If I?m in Mail, it does ?reply?. From phoenix at mindstalk.net Thu Jul 14 02:38:21 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 21:38:21 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 06:00:11PM -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: > Whose kids would be closer to the throne? Miles or Ivan? Miles is closer than Ivan, so his kids would be closer than Ivan's kids. > On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 10:42 AM Gwynne Powell > > Gwynne: That's true, but Vordarian and Vordrozda were some way down > > the list, and each of them made a grab for power. And ImpSec will therefore Well, supposedly there were six different succession theories and candidates, so presumably Vordarian thought he was at the head of the list, by a different theory than the one that favored Aral. I don't think Vordrozda was going for the camp stool directly, just "behind the scenes" power. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at mindstalk.net Thu Jul 14 02:41:23 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 21:41:23 -0400 Subject: [LMB] l Cetaganda - Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <310838505.1663474.1657121470412@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 06:29:52PM -0400, Karen Hunt wrote: > On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 11:51 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > Diplomatic Immunity, chapter 13, Miles speaking to Sealer Greenlaw: > That is a problem much studied, at certain levels of my government. First, > it would have alarmed the neighborhood. Bioweapons aren't the only kind. > The Cetagandan Empire apparently wasn't ready to face a posse of people > scared enough to combine to burn off their planets and sterilize every > living microbe. > > There's a similar longish discussion in Gentleman Jole, also chapter 13. Yeah, though GJ has Ekaterin making it sound less like MAD and more like the haut just not bothering to kill everyone else off. Either Lois changing her mind or Ekaterin having a different view than Miles. Especially in light of the covid pandemic, it's interesting to think about how a place like Beta might try to pre-empt bioweapons. Very filtered air; sampling of what you filter; perhaps smart toilets analyzing waste; perhaps random sample of people's blood/swabs. The worst case bioweapon is something that spreads stealthily, getting "in place", then turning deadly in response to some signal. -xx- Damien X-) From fishman at panix.com Thu Jul 14 03:37:38 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 02:37:38 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm sorry but I don't see either Miles' or Ivan's claim to the campstool. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ >From "Damien Sullivan" To "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Date 7/13/2022 9:38:21 PM Subject Re: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments >On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 06:00:11PM -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: >>Whose kids would be closer to the throne? Miles or Ivan? > >Miles is closer than Ivan, so his kids would be closer than Ivan's kids. > >>On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 10:42 AM Gwynne Powell > >> > Gwynne: That's true, but Vordarian and Vordrozda were some way down >> > the list, and each of them made a grab for power. And ImpSec will therefore > >Well, supposedly there were six different succession theories and >candidates, so presumably Vordarian thought he was at the head of the >list, by a different theory than the one that favored Aral. I don't >think Vordrozda was going for the camp stool directly, just "behind the >scenes" power. > >-xx- Damien X-) > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 03:40:16 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 21:40:16 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aral says that depends on whether Barrayar has Salic Law or not. If it doesn't, then Aral apparently has a theoretically better title than Gregor, which would pass down to Miles. I'm not sure about Ivan, though. On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 9:37 PM Harvey wrote: > > I'm sorry but I don't see either Miles' or Ivan's claim to the > campstool. > > Harvey > > ------ Original Message ------ > From "Damien Sullivan" > To "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." > > Date 7/13/2022 9:38:21 PM > Subject Re: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments > > >On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 06:00:11PM -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: > >>Whose kids would be closer to the throne? Miles or Ivan? > > > >Miles is closer than Ivan, so his kids would be closer than Ivan's kids. > > > >>On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 10:42 AM Gwynne Powell > > > >> > Gwynne: That's true, but Vordarian and Vordrozda were some way down > >> > the list, and each of them made a grab for power. And ImpSec will > therefore > > > >Well, supposedly there were six different succession theories and > >candidates, so presumably Vordarian thought he was at the head of the > >list, by a different theory than the one that favored Aral. I don't > >think Vordrozda was going for the camp stool directly, just "behind the > >scenes" power. > > > >-xx- Damien X-) > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rgmolpus at flash.net Thu Jul 14 04:12:38 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 03:12:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1816756991.885687.1657768358461@mail.yahoo.com> Aral's claim comes thru his mother, eldest daughter of Xav Vobarra, recognized son of Dorca Vobarra.? Same with Ivan, he's a decendent of Xav as well. His grandmother was the younger daughter of Xav, so his claim is slightly less than Miles?s. Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 9:40 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: Aral says that depends on whether Barrayar has Salic Law or not.? If it doesn't, then Aral apparently has a theoretically better title than Gregor, which would pass down to Miles.? I'm not sure about Ivan, though. On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 9:37 PM Harvey wrote: > > I'm sorry but I don't see either Miles' or Ivan's claim to the > campstool. > > Harvey > > ------ Original Message ------ > From "Damien Sullivan" > To "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." > > Date 7/13/2022 9:38:21 PM > Subject Re: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments > > >On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 06:00:11PM -0500, Raymond Collins wrote: > >>Whose kids would be closer to the throne? Miles or Ivan? > > > >Miles is closer than Ivan, so his kids would be closer than Ivan's kids. > > > >>On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 10:42 AM Gwynne Powell > > > >> > Gwynne: That's true, but Vordarian and Vordrozda were some way? down > >> > the list, and each of them made a grab for power. And ImpSec will > therefore > > > >Well, supposedly there were six different succession theories and > >candidates, so presumably Vordarian thought he was at the head of the > >list, by a different theory than the one that favored Aral.? I don't > >think Vordrozda was going for the camp stool directly, just "behind the > >scenes" power. > > > >-xx- Damien X-) > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From baur at chello.at Thu Jul 14 05:24:41 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 06:24:41 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <21a0c40d-b5e2-ead0-7bcc-0b5917670610@chello.at> Message-ID: <9236fa11-5c8e-dbf5-4db5-2d96355ba3d6@chello.at> which is why i postulated this as a second strike / vengeance weapon - to be used AFTER your home world has been occupied / destroyed (and in case of "occupied" the long time it takes for the weapon to reach its target is an advantage as it might give you a chance to recall it - although that option opens another can of worms) servus markus Am 13.07.2022 um 22:31 schrieb Eric Oppen: > I'd think that destroying an inhabitable planet, much less one with a > population, would get the Nexus to unite to hunt down and exterminate the > people responsible. > > On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 12:34 PM markus baur via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > >> Am 13.07.2022 um 14:45 schrieb Gwynne Powell: >>> From: Raymond Collins >>> >>> I could see someone getting vengeance with Jackson's Whole useing a >>> stealthed asteroid moving at relativistic speeds. Vengeance is a dish >> best >>> served cold. >>> >>> Gwynne: If it's so easy for us to imagine someone using a ship or >> asteroid >>> to seriously dent a planet, then I'd imagine that a few thousand years >> from >>> now they have warning systems and planetary defences. >> >> it is easy for someone to imagine an ICBM (i believe the earliest ideas >> for such turned up in the 1920-ires) - intercepting and disabling it is >> entire different thing, something that only very few countries have the >> technology to do >> >> one of the problems with relativistic kill vehicles is even completely >> vaporizing it will not eliminate the threat - you have just turned the >> vehicle into a huge burst of VERY lethal radiation - heavy ions at a >> very high fraction of c, which basically is cosmic radiation >> >> servus >> >> markus >> >> >> -- >> markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg >> schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 >> a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at >> austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E >> >> a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html >> >> "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From baur at chello.at Thu Jul 14 05:29:33 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 06:29:33 +0200 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: <8C29A33F-8F48-4CEB-9FCB-DEB2E06C9441@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: the name alone - sea LION - should be warning enough servus markus Am 14.07.2022 um 00:47 schrieb Raymond Collins: > There is a video of a couple who set their baby on a sea lion. Fortunately > the baby was unhurt when she fell before the sea lion could bite her. > Moral of the story 1. Don't fool around with sea lions. It's also > illegal in California. 2. Definitely DON'T put your baby on the back of a > sea lion. > > On Wed, Jul 13, 2022, 7:42 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > >> It doesn?t have to be a predator. Witness those who pet bison. Any animal >> (I was going to say wild , but this also applies to dogs, cats, horses, and >> cows.) should be approached with appropriate caution. >> >> William A Wenrich >> >> * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of >> Raymond Collins >> Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2022 3:38:41 PM >> To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < >> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> >> Subject: Re: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? >> >> Ah yes, the getting eaten by a animal method of gene improvement. As far as >> lions, tigers and bears (oh my) are concerned, they are the ones on top of >> the food chain. I wonder if there is a Darwin award for hugging hungry >> bears. >> >> On Sun, Jul 10, 2022, 1:49 PM Eric Oppen wrote: >> >>> In his old 'zine, *Murder Can be Fun,* John Marr wrote about how zoos >> had a >>> constant problem keeping their visitors away from the animals. People >>> would insist on wanting to pet the nice bear or get into the cage with >> the >>> pretty big cat, thinking that it wouldn't harm them. And hilarity would >>> ensue. >>> >>> I blame a lot of this on entertainment. Shows like *Gentle Ben, >>> *children's >>> stuff featuring anthropomorphic animals (with the clever prey animals >>> always outwitting their stupid predator pursuers), stuff like that. >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 4:35 AM Raymond Collins >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 6, 2022, 8:14 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH >> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Remember the bit in Pocahontas that said that, if you meet a bear in >>> the >>>>> woods, put down your gun, walk up, and start playing with her cubs. >>>>> >>>>> William A Wenrich >>>>> >>>>> * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: Lois-Bujold on behalf >>> of >>>>> Katherine Collett >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2022 1:40:20 PM >>>>> To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. >>>>> >>>> Perhaps that was Pocahontas way of getting rid of these foreign >>>> devils. >>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com >>>>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C2f8e7e08fd244249fa3f08da644ef1de%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637932587474359947%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=F1eJIGvWdRWuN8EJcNQ46tLD3GsiEfwjZfG3ytObYP4%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> -- >>>>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >>>>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>>>> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C2f8e7e08fd244249fa3f08da644ef1de%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637932587474359947%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=F1eJIGvWdRWuN8EJcNQ46tLD3GsiEfwjZfG3ytObYP4%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com >>>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>>> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C2f8e7e08fd244249fa3f08da644ef1de%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637932587474359947%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=F1eJIGvWdRWuN8EJcNQ46tLD3GsiEfwjZfG3ytObYP4%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>> -- >>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C2f8e7e08fd244249fa3f08da644ef1de%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637932587474359947%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=F1eJIGvWdRWuN8EJcNQ46tLD3GsiEfwjZfG3ytObYP4%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C2f8e7e08fd244249fa3f08da644ef1de%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637932587474359947%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=F1eJIGvWdRWuN8EJcNQ46tLD3GsiEfwjZfG3ytObYP4%3D&reserved=0 >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From wawenri at msn.com Thu Jul 14 05:34:58 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 04:34:58 +0000 Subject: [LMB] recovery tricks was Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 In-Reply-To: <768f50ad-fa58-1079-669b-8c8bc7c6e050@myinfmail.com> References: <768f50ad-fa58-1079-669b-8c8bc7c6e050@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: Is there any way to recall/unsend? I recently had an inadvertent send in an email to the list. I would have loved to have been able to finish that sentence. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Lois Bujold Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 9:23:27 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] recovery tricks was Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 Gwynne Powell gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 13 15:27:05 BST 2022 I just spent an hour writing the commentary. It was clever, insightful, and an absolute gem. Honest. Then I sneezed, hit the wrong button, and the whole damn thing vanished. LMB: Undoubtedly too late now, but remember the "ctrl-z" trick next time -- in fact, make a test paragraph and try it out several ways to fix in your mind how it works. Especially helpful, I find, in composing email in Gmail, which is very twitchy. But you have to remember it in time. It only does 1 step at a time, but you can go back many steps, repeating ctrl-z, before it hits a wall. Good for moments like having selected a paragraph to move only to have it delete instead. Ctrl-z will get it back. Others may have other suggestions for various scenarios. Ta, L. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C86129e1cd21c40ca4cf608da64e3a86e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637933226196983814%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=07fEJ4nhmk6fyXAhJISDuMA9kwHylH97tZwCJC64UWY%3D&reserved=0 From phoenix at mindstalk.net Thu Jul 14 07:13:01 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 02:13:01 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 02:37:38AM +0000, Harvey wrote: > > I'm sorry but I don't see either Miles' or Ivan's claim to the campstool. It's been there from the first book. "On the contrary. You have two unique advantages, from my point of view. I have kept them in mind from the day we killed old Yuri. I always knew I wouldn't live forever?too many latent poisons in my chromosomes, absorbed when I was fighting the Cetagandans as your father's military apprentice, and careless about my clean techniques, not expecting to live to grow old." The Emperor smiled again, and focused on Cordelia's intent, uncertain face. "Of the five men with a better right by blood and law to the Imperium of Barrayar than mine, your name heads the list. Ha?" he added, "I was right. Didn't think you'd told her that. Tricky, Aral." -xx- Damien X-) From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Jul 14 07:26:18 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 06:26:18 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Ghem question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just wondering: what are the titles or forms of address for 'normal' ghem? Are there any ghem who aren't ghem-lord, ghem-lady or ghem-militaryrank? Are there any middle-class ghem, without titles? If so, what are they called? Ghem-mister? Just Mr? From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Jul 14 07:38:17 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 06:38:17 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 8 - comments too In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Raymond Collins I have to watch "Pirates of the Caribbean," again. Of course I may biased since Johnny Depp got himself in such a mess. I hate it when reality invades my fantasy. Gwynne: I know how you feel; I used to enjoy Tom Cruise movies, but once you lose all respect for an actor you just can't see him as a noble action hero. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Jul 14 07:45:22 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 06:45:22 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 11 - Pt 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Richard Molpus In Diplomatic Immunity we get Miles opinion that the Hair could wipe out everybody with their bioweapons, but the threat that the survivors would use relativistic weapons on them keeps the peace. If we lose, you lose, is a real deterrence. Gwynne: Also, if you've wiped out a planet then the few survivors - the ones who were off-planet at the time, now have nothing left to lose. And ships. So all they have to do is aim themselves at your world, and wait to join the rest of their people - while taking you and your world along for company. Boom. Beware the people who have nothing left to lose. You can't hurt them, and you have nothing to threaten them with. From baur at chello.at Thu Jul 14 08:33:31 2022 From: baur at chello.at (baur baur) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 09:33:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] recovery tricks was Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 In-Reply-To: References: <768f50ad-fa58-1079-669b-8c8bc7c6e050@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: <862669592.525725.1657784011830@webmail.mymagenta.at> you can go to the web interface of the mailing list and delete the message there .. this will make it unavailable to all list members that use the web interface to read the list but the message will already be sent to all members who use email .. servus markus > WILLIAM A WENRICH hat am 14.07.2022 06:34 geschrieben: > > > Is there any way to recall/unsend? > > I recently had an inadvertent send in an email to the list. I would have loved to have been able to finish that sentence. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Lois Bujold > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 9:23:27 AM > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Subject: [LMB] recovery tricks was Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 > > [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 > Gwynne Powell gwynnepowell at hotmail.com > Wed Jul 13 15:27:05 BST 2022 > > > I just spent an hour writing the commentary. It was clever, insightful, > and an absolute gem. Honest. > > Then I sneezed, hit the wrong button, and the whole damn thing vanished. > > LMB: Undoubtedly too late now, but remember the "ctrl-z" trick next > time -- in fact, make a test paragraph and try it out several ways to > fix in your mind how it works. Especially helpful, I find, in composing > email in Gmail, which is very twitchy. But you have to remember it in > time. It only does 1 step at a time, but you can go back many steps, > repeating ctrl-z, before it hits a wall. Good for moments like having > selected a paragraph to move only to have it delete instead. Ctrl-z > will get it back. > > Others may have other suggestions for various scenarios. > > Ta, L. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7C86129e1cd21c40ca4cf608da64e3a86e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637933226196983814%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=07fEJ4nhmk6fyXAhJISDuMA9kwHylH97tZwCJC64UWY%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From baur at chello.at Thu Jul 14 09:09:11 2022 From: baur at chello.at (baur baur) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 10:09:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [LMB] Ghem question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <500363785.525940.1657786151845@webmail.mymagenta.at> and are there female ghem-military servus markus > Gwynne Powell hat am 14.07.2022 08:26 geschrieben: > > > Just wondering: what are the titles or forms of address for 'normal' ghem? > Are there any ghem who aren't ghem-lord, ghem-lady or ghem-militaryrank? > Are there any middle-class ghem, without titles? If so, what are they called? > Ghem-mister? Just Mr? > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to baur at chello.at > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From domelouann at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 12:32:28 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 06:32:28 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 3:34 PM Howard Brazee wrote: > > > On Jul 13, 2022, at 9:54 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > > > You might try setting the Word for plain text only. > > I get weird punctuation and I?m typing into Outlook set to text only. > > Or use a text editor. Doe Windows come with a free one, Apple does. And > there are other free text editors available for downloading (some want you > to upgrade). > > I use the freeware suite of office programs LibreOffice. I've never had a problem with them. Like Gwynne, I have had direct-to-internet apps like mail programs betray me at an awkward moment. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Jul 14 12:34:31 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 11:34:31 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Raymond Collins Whose kids would be closer to the throne? Miles or Ivan? Gwynne: Miles. His grandmother was the older sister. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Jul 14 12:46:43 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 11:46:43 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Eric Oppen Aral says that depends on whether Barrayar has Salic Law or not. If it doesn't, then Aral apparently has a theoretically better title than Gregor, which would pass down to Miles. I'm not sure about Ivan, though. Gwynne: Aral says that he doesn't have a claim, because Salic law disqualifies him - his claim is through the female line. Ezar, and everyone else, discount this entirely. And if you don't pay attention to that, then Aral is the closest in blood to Dorca. (And I'm sure there was a random comment somewhere that Dorca's claim was through his mother, so it's obviously accepted on Barrayar. If you have a big enough army.) Gregor's claim is through the Vorbarra line: Ezar was one of the few Vorbarras (by name) left standing. He was a more distant cousin of Dorca's, but he did have the name. It all came down to Piotr; if he chose, he could have taken the throne for Aral, and I doubt that anyone would have objected. And Aral would have been a good emperor, too. But Piotr didn't want to do that to his son. And he wasn't going to let them bypass his son and put a Vordarian or Vordrozda on the throne (whose claims were obviously also through the female line), so he claimed tradition and grabbed the nearest Vorbarra, who happened to be a young officer that he'd trained, and put him in power. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Jul 14 13:01:13 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 12:01:13 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Ghem question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: baur baur and are there female ghem-military markus Gwynne: In Diplomatic Immunity one of the quaddies mentions, with some disgust, that the Cetagandans and the Barrayarans both have male-only ships, (and that it makes their crews more boisterous on shore leave.) But by GJ&RQ the Barrayaran military has women, and they can hope for ship duty the same as males, so there's been a big shift there. Barrayar always did have the women's Auxiliary - they were mentioned in Vor Game - but they seem to have been boosted up to being regular military. I can't see the Cetas putting women in their military any time soon, their social structure isn't set up for it, and socially they're less open and 'modern' than Barrayar. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Jul 14 13:12:33 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 12:12:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Today we send big, beautiful birthday wishes to Meg Selin-Williams. Meg, may your birthday be full of love and joy. And to help you celebrate, You'll be spending the day with Countess Ekaterin Vorkosigan. She has a busy day lined up, checking on several of her gardens; there's two public parks, a big display at the Vorbarr Sultana University, three Count's residences, and of course the famous Barrayaran garden beside Vorkosigan House. And you're allowed to collect any seeds or cuttings you want! Plus you'll get the most useful advice from Ekaterin, too. Then you'll dine at Vorkosigan House, for a wonderful birthday dinner, with all the family. A Ma Kosti dinner - enjoy! Have a wonderful day, Meg! From howard at brazee.net Thu Jul 14 13:20:33 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 06:20:33 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: <1816756991.885687.1657768358461@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1816756991.885687.1657768358461@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Barrayar doesn?t need to have any current laws of succession. It isn?t just Salic law that has changed on Earth. We have seen one succession that appeared to be pre-determined. Nowadays, many countries have detailed succession rules for non-elected kings and sometimes regents. I don?t remember how Barrayar determined regency. But Barrayar may have had special rules determining whether someone would be removed from the succession path ahead of time. (Not a bad idea). From howard at brazee.net Thu Jul 14 13:21:36 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 06:21:36 -0600 Subject: [LMB] recovery tricks was Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 In-Reply-To: References: <768f50ad-fa58-1079-669b-8c8bc7c6e050@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: <18F780C3-0112-41E2-865B-E5A745930504@brazee.net> > On Jul 13, 2022, at 10:34 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > Is there any way to recall/unsend? > > I recently had an inadvertent send in an email to the list. I would have loved to have been able to finish that sentence. I?ve read that Apple will have one with texting. From howard at brazee.net Thu Jul 14 13:26:58 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 06:26:58 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 8 - comments too In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jul 14, 2022, at 12:38 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > I have to watch "Pirates of the Caribbean," again. Of course I may biased > since Johnny Depp got himself in such a mess. I hate it when reality > invades my fantasy. > > Gwynne: I know how you feel; I used to enjoy Tom Cruise movies, but once > you lose all respect for an actor you just can't see him as a noble action hero. I used to *love* Walter Brennan until I learned about him dancing a jig when he heard about Martin Luther King?s assassination. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Jul 14 13:48:18 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 12:48:18 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Howard Brazee Barrayar doesn?t need to have any current laws of succession. It isn?t just Salic law that has changed on Earth. We have seen one succession that appeared to be pre-determined. Nowadays, many countries have detailed succession rules for non-elected kings and sometimes regents. I don?t remember how Barrayar determined regency. But Barrayar may have had special rules determining whether someone would be removed from the succession path ahead of time. (Not a bad idea). Gwynne: On Barrayar the regent is chosen by the dying Emperor, if there's time. Otherwise the General Staff and the Prime Minister probably did it, or any relative with enough power. As for removing someone from the succession path; they have a process for that. They kill them. From domelouann at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 13:55:04 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 07:55:04 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <1816756991.885687.1657768358461@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 7:20 AM Howard Brazee wrote: > Barrayar may have had special rules determining whether someone would be > removed from the succession path ahead of time. (Not a bad idea). > Europe had a rule in place for that. Before the Reformation, and continuing later in Catholic countries, the awkward heir could declare a sudden religious vocation and enter a monastery. (The parallel, with a nunnery, was also used for awkward wives when the husband wanted another one. Henry VIII made this offer to his first wife early on, but she refused it.) It turned out in practice that the heir could at some point in the future renounce his vows and wind up back in the succession. This could also be forced on an heir by ambitious political handlers. So it didn't solve much in practice. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Jul 14 14:06:36 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 13:06:36 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The thread about claims on the throne got me thinking about the Vorkosigans. And, when you put it all in one place, basically they've shaped the Barrayaran empire, held it together, and saved it. It's no wonder the name Vorkosigan got such a reaction when the Escobarans were trying to get an arrest warrant for Mark. Piotr Vorkosigan married into the Imperial family, so he was VERY High Vor at that point. Then he turned the tide on the Cetagandan invasion. Xav ranged the Nexus for support, Yuri and Dorca spearheaded the fight on-planet, but Piotr was the one who was down and dirty, who held on grimly and stopped their advance, who simply wouldn't lose. It's telling that when they left the one place they hit with a hugely illegal nuclear weapon was the Vorkosigan capital city. Then Yuri went mad and Piotr toppled an emperor. He decided that Yuri had to go, and took him out. Then Piotr decided who would be the next emperor - and that was totally his decision. If he'd wanted the throne for Aral he could have had it, but he chose someone else. And then he just played politics for idle pleasure. And Aral, the man who should have been Emperor, conquered Komarr, which created the Empire. It gave Barrayar a presence in the Nexus. He fought off the Cetas a couple more times, basically with one hand tied behind his back. He saved most of the fleet in the Escobaran debacle, and somehow kept Sergyar (how the HECK did he manage that? Even the Komarrans are impressed about that.) Aral ran the empire for sixteen years, then let Gregor take over and still ran things as Prime Minister. Then ran a planet as a retirement hobby. Miles saved the Empire a couple of times, too. it's in his genes. So the Barrayaran Empire, a three-planet entity, stands as it is because of the Vorkosigans. They made the Empire, held it together, shaped it and kept it going - they're a massive factor in the way the Empire has survived and changed. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 15:22:43 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 09:22:43 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And unlike any children Ivan has with Tej, his children would be undeniably Barrayaran. I don't think he thought about that, though. On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 6:34 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Raymond Collins > > > Whose kids would be closer to the throne? Miles or Ivan? > > Gwynne: Miles. His grandmother was the older sister. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Thu Jul 14 18:53:46 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 11:53:46 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Medals Message-ID: <38C52652-9267-4D36-B928-6BCBB8AA210C@brazee.net> Eisenhower picked and chose which medals he wore at various occasions, whether he was on active duty or what he got buried in. Miles was not on active duty when we saw him picking medals to wear. Did he have any guidelines about what occasions wanted which medals? Or was that a strategic choice? From rgmolpus at flash.net Thu Jul 14 19:24:46 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 18:24:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Medals In-Reply-To: <38C52652-9267-4D36-B928-6BCBB8AA210C@brazee.net> References: <38C52652-9267-4D36-B928-6BCBB8AA210C@brazee.net> Message-ID: <227139988.1090396.1657823086116@mail.yahoo.com> Miles was outfitting himself with medals very strategically when he suited up for his big meeting with Gregor (and when he met Haroche at the entrance to Impsec). He wanted to call in all the favors and credit he had in stock for that meeting.? ?Wearing his Cetagandan Order of Merit was a reminder of how he -not Naismith- had served Barrayar very fruitfully.? ?(That medal he can wear 'openly, as it was awarded to Miles Vorkosigan in his official role as representative at the Cetagandan Empresses funeral. Mist of his medals are held in secret, as an Impsec agent.) Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 12:54 PM, Howard Brazee wrote: Eisenhower picked and chose which medals he wore at various occasions, whether he was on active duty or what he got buried in. Miles was not on active duty when we saw him picking medals to wear. Did he have any guidelines about what occasions wanted which medals?? Or was that a strategic choice? -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From rgmolpus at flash.net Thu Jul 14 19:29:31 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 18:29:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2014723063.1082991.1657823371776@mail.yahoo.com> Now that Gregor has a clutch of kids on his own, and so does Miles, Ivan's brood is much less important.??Which poses: Impmed had a freezer full of all the possible heirs genetic samples in stock; if something went really wrong would people accept a grown clone of Gregor as Emperor and Count Vorbarra? Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 9:23 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: And unlike any children Ivan has with Tej, his children would be undeniably Barrayaran.? I don't think he thought about that, though. On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 6:34 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Raymond Collins > > > Whose kids would be closer to the throne? Miles or Ivan? > > Gwynne: Miles. His grandmother was the older sister. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From lmb at matija.com Thu Jul 14 20:46:24 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 20:46:24 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 14/07/2022 14:06, Gwynne Powell wrote: > Then he turned the tide on the Cetagandan > invasion. Xav ranged the Nexus for support, Yuri and Dorca spearheaded > the fight on-planet, but Piotr was the one who was down and dirty, > who held on grimly and stopped their advance, who simply wouldn't > lose. It's telling that when they left the one place they hit with a hugely > illegal nuclear weapon was the Vorkosigan capital city. Not to take anything away from Piotr, it is undisputable he was a vital part of the resistance, but it was Dorca who "pissed away the last of his melanin" due to all the damage he took fighting Cetagandan's. When Dorca died of damage sustained in combat, Piotr Pierre was still riding horses. He didn't die until, what, 15-ish years later? So however down and dirty Piotr got, Dorca was lower and dirtier. From rgmolpus at flash.net Thu Jul 14 21:07:42 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 20:07:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1531576782.1125044.1657829262396@mail.yahoo.com> It wasn't Dorca who pissed away his melanin, it was Ezar.?? Dorca, Yuri, Ezar, then Gregor.?? Before Dorca it's unclear, but might be Xav was Emperor.? Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 2:46 PM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: On 14/07/2022 14:06, Gwynne Powell wrote: >? Then he turned the tide on the Cetagandan > invasion. Xav ranged the Nexus for support, Yuri and Dorca spearheaded > the fight on-planet, but Piotr was the one who was down and dirty, > who held on grimly and stopped their advance, who simply wouldn't > lose. It's telling that when they left the one place they hit with a hugely > illegal nuclear weapon was the Vorkosigan capital city. Not to take anything away from Piotr, it is undisputable he was a vital part of the resistance, but it was Dorca who "pissed away the last of his melanin" due to all the damage he took fighting Cetagandan's. When Dorca died of damage sustained in combat, Piotr Pierre was still riding horses. He didn't die until, what, 15-ish years later? So however down and dirty Piotr got, Dorca was lower and dirtier. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From lmb at matija.com Thu Jul 14 21:11:38 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 21:11:38 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigans In-Reply-To: <1531576782.1125044.1657829262396@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1531576782.1125044.1657829262396@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 14/07/2022 21:07, Richard Molpus wrote: > It wasn't Dorca who pissed away his melanin, it was Ezar. > > Dorca, Yuri, Ezar, then Gregor. > > Before Dorca it's unclear, but might be Xav was Emperor. > Darn, you're right! My mistake. From saffronrose at me.com Thu Jul 14 22:23:34 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 14:23:34 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Poorly behaving celebrities, Was - Ch 8 - comments too In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tom Cruise, Mel Gibson, Woody Allen, Roman Polansky for me. Other than West Wing, Rob Lowe. MZB. Pedophile, enabled child rape of her own children. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala > On Jul 14, 2022, at 5:27 AM, Howard Brazee wrote: > > ? > >> On Jul 14, 2022, at 12:38 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: >> >> I have to watch "Pirates of the Caribbean," again. Of course I may biased >> since Johnny Depp got himself in such a mess. I hate it when reality >> invades my fantasy. >> >> Gwynne: I know how you feel; I used to enjoy Tom Cruise movies, but once >> you lose all respect for an actor you just can't see him as a noble action hero. > > I used to *love* Walter Brennan until I learned about him dancing a jig when he heard about Martin Luther King?s assassination. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to saffronrose at me.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 23:14:44 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 18:14:44 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 15 Pt 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 11:43 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Harvey > > Gwynne, how do you write your stuff? Do you happen to use Microsoft > Word? There is an autosave feature that can save your work every few > seconds. > Harvey > > Gwynne: I write it directly into the email. I find that if I do it in Word > first, > it ends up with weird punctuation when I cut and paste it into the email. > -- > I like to write in Word, which saves, the copy-pasta to Notepad, which strips the formatting, then copy-pasta to whatever Net program I'm using. It's a few extra steps, but not as much as re-typing... or trying to remember what to type. Sylvia From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 23:23:00 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 18:23:00 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Uterine Replicators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 9:24 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > There is a Dutch company (spun off from a university) that is planning on > starting clinical trials in 2024. > I am literally praying that we won't have to wait 700 years for actuality. > Yes, there will be problems and we will have people (like Van Atta) who > will try to get away with anything, but I've come to the conclusion that > this is something we need desperately. > > William A Wenrich > In the other direction, we've already had the first live birth from a uterine transplant. https://consultqd.clevelandclinic.org/a-north-american-first-live-birth-from-deceased-donor-uterine-transplant-at-cleveland-clinic/?_ga=2.121600014.785057583.1562717885-947552979.1562717885/ From fishman at panix.com Fri Jul 15 00:48:41 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 23:48:41 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon In-Reply-To: References: <1816756991.885687.1657768358461@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I believe Henry VIII takes a beating for treatment of Catherine of Aragon. He did not woo her; he inherited her. She was the wife of his brother Arthur, who died 20 weeks after having married Catherine who was nine years older than Henry. Henry NEEDED an heir, and Catherine produced only three miscarriages, a son who died at seven weeks, and a girl child, Mary I. He tried to have his marriage to Catherine annulled, but Pope Clement VII was held in durance vile by The Holy Roman Emperor Charles V, who Catherine's nephew. Harvey From fishman at panix.com Fri Jul 15 00:57:08 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 23:57:08 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why was the Cetagandan's nuclear weapon hugely illegal? Harvey ------ Original Message ------ >From "Gwynne Powell" To "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk" Date 7/14/2022 9:06:36 AM Subject [LMB] Vorkosigans > > >The thread about claims on the throne got me thinking about the >Vorkosigans. And, when you put it all in one place, basically they've >shaped the Barrayaran empire, held it together, and saved it. > >It's no wonder the name Vorkosigan got such a reaction when the >Escobarans were trying to get an arrest warrant for Mark. > >Piotr Vorkosigan married into the Imperial family, so he was VERY >High Vor at that point. Then he turned the tide on the Cetagandan >invasion. Xav ranged the Nexus for support, Yuri and Dorca spearheaded >the fight on-planet, but Piotr was the one who was down and dirty, >who held on grimly and stopped their advance, who simply wouldn't >lose. It's telling that when they left the one place they hit with a hugely >illegal nuclear weapon was the Vorkosigan capital city. > >Then Yuri went mad and Piotr toppled an emperor. He decided that >Yuri had to go, and took him out. Then Piotr decided who would >be the next emperor - and that was totally his decision. If he'd wanted >the throne for Aral he could have had it, but he chose someone else. >And then he just played politics for idle pleasure. > >And Aral, the man who should have been Emperor, conquered Komarr, >which created the Empire. It gave Barrayar a presence in the Nexus. He >fought off the Cetas a couple more times, basically with one hand tied >behind his back. He saved most of the fleet in the Escobaran debacle, >and somehow kept Sergyar (how the HECK did he manage that? Even >the Komarrans are impressed about that.) > >Aral ran the empire for sixteen years, then let Gregor take over and still >ran things as Prime Minister. Then ran a planet as a retirement hobby. > >Miles saved the Empire a couple of times, too. it's in his genes. > >So the Barrayaran Empire, a three-planet entity, stands as it is because >of the Vorkosigans. They made the Empire, held it together, shaped it >and kept it going - they're a massive factor in the way the Empire has >survived and changed. >-- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From rgmolpus at flash.net Fri Jul 15 01:28:18 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2022 00:28:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <212856394.1203501.1657844898490@mail.yahoo.com> ?#1 is they nuked a civilian city under their control. Had they nuked only military base, to deny it to Piotrs' forces when they left, that would have been acceptable. ?#2 They were leaving; had agreed to a peace treaty and had a timetable for departing. Reparations had been set; they were supposed to avoid harming any non-military places. ?#3 Poor sportsmanship on their part. Bad form, bad form! ?#4 I touch on some of this in my story "--the wrong document". On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 06:57:21 PM CDT, Harvey wrote: Why was the Cetagandan's nuclear weapon hugely illegal? Harvey From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 02:10:37 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 21:10:37 -0400 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: <8C29A33F-8F48-4CEB-9FCB-DEB2E06C9441@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: The sea has killed more humans than lions ever have. 'Lion' isn't the scary part of that name. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 02:14:31 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 21:14:31 -0400 Subject: [LMB] [strategypage] OT: this is TRULY frightening In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I note that media personalities in my corner of the world have mostly stopped calling storms and floods and similar disasters "the worst we've seen in [TIME PERIOD]" as such severities have become increasingly common. Much the way all of the environmental disaster hysteria has stopped now that the environment is beginning to collapse. No one wants to acknowledge the tiger, now that there's indubitable evidence it's actually in the room. Matt "relax and learn to love the bomb" G. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 02:16:13 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 20:16:13 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon In-Reply-To: References: <1816756991.885687.1657768358461@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm no fan of Henry but you have a point. On Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 6:48 PM Harvey wrote: > I believe Henry VIII takes a beating for treatment of Catherine of > Aragon. He did not woo her; he inherited her. She was the wife of his > brother Arthur, who died 20 weeks after having married Catherine who was > nine years older than Henry. Henry NEEDED an heir, and Catherine > produced only three miscarriages, a son who died at seven weeks, and a > girl child, Mary I. He tried to have his marriage to Catherine annulled, > but Pope Clement VII was held in durance vile by The Holy Roman Emperor > Charles V, who Catherine's nephew. > > Harvey > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 02:49:24 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 21:49:24 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigans In-Reply-To: <212856394.1203501.1657844898490@mail.yahoo.com> References: <212856394.1203501.1657844898490@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The Cetagandan weapon was also a "dirty nuke", designed to create lots of residual radioactive contamination. Use of such weapons is disapproved in the Nexus because they're weapons that keep on killing, much like land mines. Matt G. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Jul 15 03:05:08 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2022 02:05:08 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Poorly behaving celebrities, Was - Ch 8 - comments too In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "A. Marina Fournier" Tom Cruise, Mel Gibson, Woody Allen, Roman Polansky for me. Other than West Wing, Rob Lowe. MZB. Pedophile, enabled child rape of her own children. Gwynne: There's so many shows, music and books we've 'lost' because someone involved has turned out to be very nasty. We'll probably never see the Cosby show again, or 7th Heaven. Or, in Australia, Hey Dad. And the list keeps growing. I just wonder how long it will be before someone involved in a show like that sues the one who's responsible for the show being put back on the shelf forever. Being in a long-running and successful show is a great investment for your future; plenty of actors live a happy retirement on the residuals from shows they were in, that are always running somewhere. But you can work for a decade on a much-loved show, and then the star is shown to be a deviant of some kind, and you'll never see another cent from that show. How long before someone sues the one who robbed them of years of residuals? From cjbotteron at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 03:16:18 2022 From: cjbotteron at gmail.com (Carol Botteron) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 22:16:18 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon Message-ID: Harvey wrote: > I believe Henry VIII takes a beating for treatment of Catherine of > Aragon. He did not woo her; he inherited her. She was the wife of his > brother Arthur, who died 20 weeks after having married Catherine who was > nine years older than Henry. Henry NEEDED an heir, and Catherine > produced only three miscarriages, a son who died at seven weeks, and a > girl child, Mary I. He tried to have his marriage to Catherine annulled, > but Pope Clement VII was held in durance vile by The Holy Roman Emperor > Charles V, who Catherine's nephew. Carol B: Let's not assume that a shortage of live children is the woman's fault. There is a theory that Henry had a STD, which he transmitted to his wives. (A similar phenomenon occurred after World War I, when soldiers returned to Britain infected with gonorrhea, which they gave to their wives; often the woman was able to have one child but no more.) Back to Henry VIII, maybe the Church of England could have been prevented if an antibiotic had been available. From fishman at panix.com Fri Jul 15 04:29:48 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2022 03:29:48 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigans In-Reply-To: <212856394.1203501.1657844898490@mail.yahoo.com> References: <212856394.1203501.1657844898490@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oh all of those things are WRONG, but why was it illegal? Harvey ------ Original Message ------ >From "Richard Molpus" To "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Date 7/14/2022 8:28:18 PM Subject Re: [LMB] Vorkosigans > #1 is they nuked a civilian city under their control. Had they nuked only military base, to deny it to Piotrs' forces when they left, that would have been acceptable. > #2 They were leaving; had agreed to a peace treaty and had a timetable for departing. Reparations had been set; they were supposed to avoid harming any non-military places. > #3 Poor sportsmanship on their part. Bad form, bad form! > #4 I touch on some of this in my story "--the wrong document". > On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 06:57:21 PM CDT, Harvey wrote: >Why was the Cetagandan's nuclear weapon hugely illegal? > >Harvey > > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From raye_j at yahoo.com Fri Jul 15 04:48:28 2022 From: raye_j at yahoo.com (Raye Johnsen) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2022 03:48:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigans In-Reply-To: References: <212856394.1203501.1657844898490@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1474705106.1895423.1657856908364@mail.yahoo.com> >? ? On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 06:57:21 PM CDT, Harvey wrote: >Why was the Cetagandan's nuclear weapon hugely illegal? >From "Richard Molpus" >? #1 is they nuked a civilian city under their control. Had they nuked only military base, to deny it to Piotrs' forces when they left, that would have been acceptable. >? #2 They were leaving; had agreed to a peace treaty and had a timetable for departing. Reparations had been set; they were supposed to avoid harming any non-military places. >? #3 Poor sportsmanship on their part. Bad form, bad form! >? #4 I touch on some of this in my story "--the wrong document". On Friday, July 15, 2022, 01:30:04 PM GMT+10, Harvey wrote: > Oh all of those things are WRONG, but why was it illegal? One presumes that there is a Geneva Convention of sorts still floating around - this is acceptable in war, this isn't, etc.? And by that law, it's illegal. Raye raye_j at yahoo.com? I believe in dragons, unicorns, good men?and other mythical creatures. From baur at chello.at Fri Jul 15 05:24:13 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2022 06:24:13 +0200 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: <8C29A33F-8F48-4CEB-9FCB-DEB2E06C9441@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: doffing my hat to you, good sir - well played servus markus Am 15.07.2022 um 03:10 schrieb Matthew George: > The sea has killed more humans than lions ever have. 'Lion' isn't the > scary part of that name. > > Matt G. -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From saffronrose at me.com Fri Jul 15 06:18:49 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 22:18:49 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Poorly behaving celebrities, Was - Ch 8 - comments too In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <315C36C9-21C9-4730-87E8-D46036067A6E@me.com> On Jul 14, 2022, at 7:05 PM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Gwynne: There's so many shows, music and books we've 'lost' because > someone involved has turned out to be very nasty. > We'll probably never see the Cosby show again, or 7th Heaven. Or, > in Australia, Hey Dad. And the list keeps growing. I just wonder how > long it will be before someone involved in a show like that sues the > one who's responsible for the show being put back on the shelf forever. > Being in a long-running and successful show is a great investment for > your future; plenty of actors live a happy retirement on the residuals > from shows they were in, that are always running somewhere. But you > can work for a decade on a much-loved show, and then the star is > shown to be a deviant of some kind, and you'll never see another cent > from that show. How long before someone sues the one who robbed > them of years of residuals? In Australia, the title character?s actor, Craig McLaghlan, was to be removed from the Dr Blake Mysteries in April 2018 due to three actresses? allegations of sexual misconduct during their work on the 2014 Australian Rocky Horror Show (he played Frank N. Furter). Two months earlier he had filed defamation suits against the Australian Broadcasting Company and Fairfax Media, among others. While the magistrate in the criminal case in 2019-2020 acquitted him, she was not persuaded beyond a reasonable doubt that he knew they were not consenting. As to residuals: https://variety.com/1998/biz/news/garner-files-files-suit-1117480358/ regarding Universal Studios? allegations that there were no profits from The Rockford Files. Not quite an exact precedent, but it does show a studio being taken to task for duplicitous accounting, and changed the studios? accounting procedures. I think co-stars from shows syndicated until accusations or confessions of unacceptable behavior stopped them being shown *should* be able to sue either the studios or the person showing bad judgement whose actions deprived them of future income. How you prove it, or the amounts due, is well beyond me. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From phoenix at mindstalk.net Fri Jul 15 06:54:28 2022 From: phoenix at mindstalk.net (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2022 01:54:28 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Cetaganda - Ch 6 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: <1816756991.885687.1657768358461@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 07:55:04AM -0500, Louann Miller wrote: > it.) It turned out in practice that the heir could at some point in the > future renounce his vows and wind up back in the succession. This could > also be forced on an heir by ambitious political handlers. So it didn't > solve much in practice. The Deryni books had a version of that. When Camber and friends overthrew the Festils, they looked for a Haldane to restore, and could only find Cinhil, who had taken monastic vows, and dragged him back out to be king. This did not endear them to him. -xx- Damien X-) From lmb at matija.com Fri Jul 15 07:52:48 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2022 07:52:48 +0100 Subject: [LMB] What improvements to the genome could the Haut make? In-Reply-To: References: <8C29A33F-8F48-4CEB-9FCB-DEB2E06C9441@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: <1eff649c-1f02-23d2-c907-0d6339331aa9@matija.com> On 15/07/2022 02:10, Matthew George wrote: > The sea has killed more humans than lions ever have. 'Lion' isn't the > scary part of that name. Not really an apples-to-apples comparison, given that any of the seven seas is bigger (more massive) than all the lions that ever lived put together. Pound-for-pound, the lions win. From howard at brazee.net Fri Jul 15 13:03:26 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2022 06:03:26 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Vorkosigans In-Reply-To: References: <212856394.1203501.1657844898490@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <94BBC1AB-6EFC-4623-B13C-FA4D27BC72A9@brazee.net> > On Jul 14, 2022, at 9:29 PM, Harvey wrote: > > Oh all of those things are WRONG, but why was it illegal? A problem with war crimes is that different nations can have different laws. I don?t know if Cetaganda and Barrayar have any treaties defining them. Which doesn?t stop one nation from calling what a different nation does illegal. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Jul 15 13:22:09 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2022 12:22:09 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Poorly behaving celebrities, Was - Ch 8 - comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "A. Marina Fournier" In Australia, the title character?s actor, Craig McLaghlan, was to be removed from the Dr Blake Mysteries in April 2018 due to three actresses? allegations of sexual misconduct during their work on the 2014 Australian Rocky Horror Show (he played Frank N. Furter). Two months earlier he had filed defamation suits against the Australian Broadcasting Company and Fairfax Media, among others. While the magistrate in the criminal case in 2019-2020 acquitted him, she was not persuaded beyond a reasonable doubt that he knew they were not consenting. ..... I think co-stars from shows syndicated until accusations or confessions of unacceptable behavior stopped them being shown *should* be able to sue either the studios or the person showing bad judgement whose actions deprived them of future income. How you prove it, or the amounts due, is well beyond me. A. Marina Fournier Gwynne: They dropped Dr Blake from the Dr Blake mysteries, and kept the show going with the rest of the cast - a bit of a challenge as they'd just had a big romance between Blake and another character. But the show kept going for a while, and was still reasonably good. I don't think it'll be repeated soon, though. Another example where co-stars might have a good case: Roseanne Barr sent a text that caused them to drop her from the renewed show, which staggered on for a little while and then died. But the old series had been in constant repeats for years, and paid some very comfortable residuals. After the texting debacle, the old show was dropped from the repeat schedules - so all residuals stopped. The co-stars could have a good case there, as they'd have proof of the amount of money earned, and that it was solely her behaviour that stopped it. (I think the whole debacle wasn't solely her fault; a lot of people didn't like her politics and were determined to find something to nail her on.) From wawenri at msn.com Fri Jul 15 14:00:06 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2022 13:00:06 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Poorly behaving celebrities, Was - Ch 8 - comments too In-Reply-To: <315C36C9-21C9-4730-87E8-D46036067A6E@me.com> References: <315C36C9-21C9-4730-87E8-D46036067A6E@me.com> Message-ID: I remember the original Rockford lawsuit. IIRC, the studio charged the price of a new car whenever a prop car was destroyed. One car was blown up three times. They charged for three new cars. It?s almost as bad as hospitals. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2022 11:18:49 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Cc: A. Marina Fournier Subject: Re: [LMB] Poorly behaving celebrities, Was - Ch 8 - comments too On Jul 14, 2022, at 7:05 PM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Gwynne: There's so many shows, music and books we've 'lost' because > someone involved has turned out to be very nasty. > We'll probably never see the Cosby show again, or 7th Heaven. Or, > in Australia, Hey Dad. And the list keeps growing. I just wonder how > long it will be before someone involved in a show like that sues the > one who's responsible for the show being put back on the shelf forever. > Being in a long-running and successful show is a great investment for > your future; plenty of actors live a happy retirement on the residuals > from shows they were in, that are always running somewhere. But you > can work for a decade on a much-loved show, and then the star is > shown to be a deviant of some kind, and you'll never see another cent > from that show. How long before someone sues the one who robbed > them of years of residuals? In Australia, the title character?s actor, Craig McLaghlan, was to be removed from the Dr Blake Mysteries in April 2018 due to three actresses? allegations of sexual misconduct during their work on the 2014 Australian Rocky Horror Show (he played Frank N. Furter). Two months earlier he had filed defamation suits against the Australian Broadcasting Company and Fairfax Media, among others. While the magistrate in the criminal case in 2019-2020 acquitted him, she was not persuaded beyond a reasonable doubt that he knew they were not consenting. As to residuals: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvariety.com%2F1998%2Fbiz%2Fnews%2Fgarner-files-files-suit-1117480358%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cf29378a7ea4d4a24468508da66218857%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637934591446639449%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=LyWhxXzAEomtHIJ8YUyBpDkqshXq3L3bNzdXtaDfzmU%3D&reserved=0 regarding Universal Studios? allegations that there were no profits from The Rockford Files. Not quite an exact precedent, but it does show a studio being taken to task for duplicitous accounting, and changed the studios? accounting procedures. I think co-stars from shows syndicated until accusations or confessions of unacceptable behavior stopped them being shown *should* be able to sue either the studios or the person showing bad judgement whose actions deprived them of future income. How you prove it, or the amounts due, is well beyond me. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cf29378a7ea4d4a24468508da66218857%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637934591446639449%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=db64YjbSLV6mlqsq%2B46yMVETmNp3jdq25vbtTQuonqs%3D&reserved=0 From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 19:30:19 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2022 13:30:19 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are a lot of things that