From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 01:04:01 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 20:04:01 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Lucifer's Hammer (was Re: Memory Ch 6 - Comments) In-Reply-To: <727049BB-AFD1-46B2-A7DF-FA312C6E5631@comcast.net> References: <886C178F-1D7B-44FE-B097-1D154C5D2D7D@panix.com> <212a33ff-38df-1378-af3d-0178a23b0bcc@matija.com> <0u2q1hhid02n8qodorqkos70fiatgc6fkv@4ax.com> <727049BB-AFD1-46B2-A7DF-FA312C6E5631@comcast.net> Message-ID: Can the list-folk on this thread please, please trim their posts? The Overquote Tixie (retired) From fishman at panix.com Tue Mar 1 07:21:58 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2022 07:21:58 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Mountains of Mourning - Final Part In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Gwynne for a WONDERFUL interpretation!!! Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "Gwynne Powell" To: "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 1/28/2022 9:32:32 PM Subject: [LMB] Mountains of Mourning - Final Part > > >So, let's see if the computer eats the wretched post this time. > >Miles knows all the answers now. He sends for the people involved. >Ma Csurik turns up, a few other sons in tow, and is relieved and >desperately worried to see Lem: "You didn't let the mutie lord give >you that poison drug, did you?" - which shows very clearly how the >people think about Miles. > >Miles points out that his 'poison drug' has cleared Lem. And then, >while the poor woman is still feeling that relief, he asks about the >attempted tent-burning, and it's obvious that Lem's youngest >brother did it. He had no idea that Karal's boys were in the tent, >he was trying to scare the mutie lord and his men away. > >It was an attack on the Count's Heir and Voice, which is... treason. >Yes, Dono has won the big prize: Execution! Poor Ma Csurik is >almost frantic to protect both sons who are in danger, while >wanting to give Dono a good thumping for his behaviour. Miles >decides that in view of his youth and imbecility, Dono's punishment >will be handled by Speaker Karal and Ma Csurik. Dono isn't all >that grateful. The middle brother laughs at 'mental defective' and >gets a slap from his mum - ironic that the only son who hasn't >been in trouble is the one who gets hit. > >Harra arrives, sees Lem and is told that he's innocent. "Who then?" >Miles says that she already knows, she just didn't want to admit it. >There's hurt all round in this, but it's better to be hurt for the >right reasons. > >Miles sees the next group arriving, and asks the doctor to Fast-Penta >the first person through the door. Miles is also a bit surprised that >Pym and the doctor haven't worked it out - it's so obvious to him. >It must be very irritating to work with Miles, at times. I think most >people who worked with him felt that way. > >To fill the time, Miles talks about his grandfather. Piotr's life stretched >from the Bloody Centuries, through the wormhole discovery, the >Cetagandans, and the growth of the Empire. Swords and horses to >space travel - and Piotr adapted, and kept on adapting. He changed, >he coped, and he thrived. Miles was a bit of a sticking-point, but he >was able, in the end, to even cope with that. People can change, >and learn. > >And then the group arrives, and the doctor hits Ma Mattulich with >the Fast-Penta. And the patient interrogation is heartrending. > >She says, at first, that she did it to spare Harra the task. She's angry >that the midwife wouldn't leave her alone with the baby - the older >women knew, and tried to protect the baby from her. But she's angry >that Harra got off so easily (EASILY???) It must be Harra's fault, the >mutations are hidden in her but they came out in the baby. > >And then it gets worse. Harra didn't know, but she was the last of >five children - all the others were badly deformed. Two were >stillborn, two she killed. > >The younger generation in the room are horrified. The older adults >already know. > >"Killed my babies, to please, to please... I don't know who. And now you call me a murderer? Damn you! What use is your justice to me now? I needed it then ? where were you then?" - that's the most agonising cry, and it's why I can't >hate her. > >The next part of her defence isn't so great: >. "If mine must die then so must hers! Why should she get off so soft? Spoiled her... I tried my best, I did my best, it's not fair..." > >They all knew - Karal, Lem and the rest. They were trying to protect >Harra. Too much secrecy almost got Lem killed. > >And she stabbed Fat Ninny too - because she couldn't get at Miles. >The village girls were interested in the horses, and she saw Miles >watching them - Muties breed, and make more muties, and outbreed >the rest - all those old prejudices still roaring along. > >So, it's solved - Miles goes to talk to Raina to decide what to do. >Executing an old woman isn't all that heroic. Poor Pym has to >guard him - the man deserves a medal for all this. He's a new >armsman; wonder what he thinks of his new job now. > >Barrayaran law is about spirit, not words. Justice, not precedent. >So it's totally up to him - that's terrible pressure. > >Speaker Karal sort-of apologises, and says that he'll support >any decision Miles makes. Karal, and all the older ones, were >just trying to protect the young ones. And he couldn't see that >executing an old woman would achieve much. > >Karal also points out that they are changing. Harra is so different >from her mother - and Ma Mattulich's mother was apparently even >worse. Scarier, and harsher. But the young ones are looking forward, >and outward. As soon as they get a powersat receptor and com >net, the kids will leave all the old ideas behind. > >Miles still wants more, faster, NOW. He doesn't think he's done >anything. >"You are doing something for us every minute. Mutie lord. Do you think you are invisible?" > >Aral was right: just seeing Miles, and what he's achieved, sends a >message, and makes a difference. And sets a standard: >"...Ordinary people need extraordinary examples. So they can say to themselves, well, if he can do that, I can surely do this. No excuses." > >Miles makes his judgement: No actual execution - Pym relaxes - >but she's no longer a person under the law; she owns nothing, she >can make no decisions. She took Harra's baby, and now she's in >that role herself. And - most importantly for the older ones at least - >no burnings after her death. > >So Miles found a way to send a message. And really make a >difference. > >Later he delivers the rest of his judgement; he can get Harra a >scholarship to the teacher's college in Hassadar. Lem can go with >her, and work there - learning to use powered tools. Meanwhile >he'll use his new-car money to set up a comm unit, and make a >school. The Raina Csurik school. Her short life will make a huge >difference to so many. > >Harra looks at Miles - he went to the Academy, she can do teachers >college. Yes, that's one way Miles makes a difference, too. > >He sends Fat Ninny, Pym and the doctor home by lift-van, but >rides home with another armsman. Miles has learned the value >of taking time to think. > >He wants to resign his commission, and spend his life working >in the mountains, helping them; but that's not the best use of >his training. And he can make more of a difference doing what >he's trained to do - but now he's doing it for Raina, and all of >them, not for the Emperor and the Empire. The more that Miles >can achieve, the greater acceptance he wins, the better it will >be for them. > >"...He knew who he served now. And why he could not quit. And why he must not fail...." > > > > >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From mathews55 at msn.com Tue Mar 1 13:56:51 2022 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 13:56:51 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Mountains of Mourning - Final Part In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes. That is SO perfect! ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Harvey Fishman Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2022 12:21 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Mountains of Mourning - Final Part Thank you Gwynne for a WONDERFUL interpretation!!! Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "Gwynne Powell" To: "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 1/28/2022 9:32:32 PM Subject: [LMB] Mountains of Mourning - Final Part > > >So, let's see if the computer eats the wretched post this time. > >Miles knows all the answers now. He sends for the people involved. >Ma Csurik turns up, a few other sons in tow, and is relieved and >desperately worried to see Lem: "You didn't let the mutie lord give >you that poison drug, did you?" - which shows very clearly how the >people think about Miles. > >Miles points out that his 'poison drug' has cleared Lem. And then, >while the poor woman is still feeling that relief, he asks about the >attempted tent-burning, and it's obvious that Lem's youngest >brother did it. He had no idea that Karal's boys were in the tent, >he was trying to scare the mutie lord and his men away. > >It was an attack on the Count's Heir and Voice, which is... treason. >Yes, Dono has won the big prize: Execution! Poor Ma Csurik is >almost frantic to protect both sons who are in danger, while >wanting to give Dono a good thumping for his behaviour. Miles >decides that in view of his youth and imbecility, Dono's punishment >will be handled by Speaker Karal and Ma Csurik. Dono isn't all >that grateful. The middle brother laughs at 'mental defective' and >gets a slap from his mum - ironic that the only son who hasn't >been in trouble is the one who gets hit. > >Harra arrives, sees Lem and is told that he's innocent. "Who then?" >Miles says that she already knows, she just didn't want to admit it. >There's hurt all round in this, but it's better to be hurt for the >right reasons. > >Miles sees the next group arriving, and asks the doctor to Fast-Penta >the first person through the door. Miles is also a bit surprised that >Pym and the doctor haven't worked it out - it's so obvious to him. >It must be very irritating to work with Miles, at times. I think most >people who worked with him felt that way. > >To fill the time, Miles talks about his grandfather. Piotr's life stretched >from the Bloody Centuries, through the wormhole discovery, the >Cetagandans, and the growth of the Empire. Swords and horses to >space travel - and Piotr adapted, and kept on adapting. He changed, >he coped, and he thrived. Miles was a bit of a sticking-point, but he >was able, in the end, to even cope with that. People can change, >and learn. > >And then the group arrives, and the doctor hits Ma Mattulich with >the Fast-Penta. And the patient interrogation is heartrending. > >She says, at first, that she did it to spare Harra the task. She's angry >that the midwife wouldn't leave her alone with the baby - the older >women knew, and tried to protect the baby from her. But she's angry >that Harra got off so easily (EASILY???) It must be Harra's fault, the >mutations are hidden in her but they came out in the baby. > >And then it gets worse. Harra didn't know, but she was the last of >five children - all the others were badly deformed. Two were >stillborn, two she killed. > >The younger generation in the room are horrified. The older adults >already know. > >"Killed my babies, to please, to please... I don't know who. And now you call me a murderer? Damn you! What use is your justice to me now? I needed it then ? where were you then?" - that's the most agonising cry, and it's why I can't >hate her. > >The next part of her defence isn't so great: >. "If mine must die then so must hers! Why should she get off so soft? Spoiled her... I tried my best, I did my best, it's not fair..." > >They all knew - Karal, Lem and the rest. They were trying to protect >Harra. Too much secrecy almost got Lem killed. > >And she stabbed Fat Ninny too - because she couldn't get at Miles. >The village girls were interested in the horses, and she saw Miles >watching them - Muties breed, and make more muties, and outbreed >the rest - all those old prejudices still roaring along. > >So, it's solved - Miles goes to talk to Raina to decide what to do. >Executing an old woman isn't all that heroic. Poor Pym has to >guard him - the man deserves a medal for all this. He's a new >armsman; wonder what he thinks of his new job now. > >Barrayaran law is about spirit, not words. Justice, not precedent. >So it's totally up to him - that's terrible pressure. > >Speaker Karal sort-of apologises, and says that he'll support >any decision Miles makes. Karal, and all the older ones, were >just trying to protect the young ones. And he couldn't see that >executing an old woman would achieve much. > >Karal also points out that they are changing. Harra is so different >from her mother - and Ma Mattulich's mother was apparently even >worse. Scarier, and harsher. But the young ones are looking forward, >and outward. As soon as they get a powersat receptor and com >net, the kids will leave all the old ideas behind. > >Miles still wants more, faster, NOW. He doesn't think he's done >anything. >"You are doing something for us every minute. Mutie lord. Do you think you are invisible?" > >Aral was right: just seeing Miles, and what he's achieved, sends a >message, and makes a difference. And sets a standard: >"...Ordinary people need extraordinary examples. So they can say to themselves, well, if he can do that, I can surely do this. No excuses." > >Miles makes his judgement: No actual execution - Pym relaxes - >but she's no longer a person under the law; she owns nothing, she >can make no decisions. She took Harra's baby, and now she's in >that role herself. And - most importantly for the older ones at least - >no burnings after her death. > >So Miles found a way to send a message. And really make a >difference. > >Later he delivers the rest of his judgement; he can get Harra a >scholarship to the teacher's college in Hassadar. Lem can go with >her, and work there - learning to use powered tools. Meanwhile >he'll use his new-car money to set up a comm unit, and make a >school. The Raina Csurik school. Her short life will make a huge >difference to so many. > >Harra looks at Miles - he went to the Academy, she can do teachers >college. Yes, that's one way Miles makes a difference, too. > >He sends Fat Ninny, Pym and the doctor home by lift-van, but >rides home with another armsman. Miles has learned the value >of taking time to think. > >He wants to resign his commission, and spend his life working >in the mountains, helping them; but that's not the best use of >his training. And he can make more of a difference doing what >he's trained to do - but now he's doing it for Raina, and all of >them, not for the Emperor and the Empire. The more that Miles >can achieve, the greater acceptance he wins, the better it will >be for them. > >"...He knew who he served now. And why he could not quit. And why he must not fail...." > > > > >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Mar 1 14:23:22 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 14:23:22 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Martin isn't the most successful chauffeur, although to be fair the old Vorkosigan armoured groundcar isn't easy to drive (and how old is that thing, anyway? They had it before Miles was born, and he's thirty.) Miles isn't looking forward to a fun interview. He refers Martin to Tsipis if there's any problems; Miles won't be available. He also, ironically, warns Martin to beware of the forward momentum of such a heavy vehicle. It's Gregor's private office, in the wing that was rebuilt after his mother burnt it down. There has to be some important imagery there. And Gregor, who's surrounded by amazing antiques all the time, has a private office that's determinedly modern. The conversation is uncomfortable, but intimate. These two know each other very well, and there's no pretence here. That's one thing about losing Naismith: Miles was always putting on the best front, to convince them that Naismith was worth it. Now he doesn't have to pretend, or impress anyone. He's totally open, brutally honest - again, irony that his lie has freed him to be honest. Part of Gregor's disappointment is that he wanted someone of his own generation in a powerful position; he's spent his whole life working with old men. Be fair, they've done a great job. But still... it's hard having all that power but not really having it. Death by a thousand nibbles. Miles can't run to the Dendarii. Nobody could stop him if he was determined, but it'd be treason, a one-way trip, and dumb. Not fair to the Dendarii, either. (Besides, if he was going to do that he'd have done it already.) And Gregor is prepared to keep the Dendarii on, if Quinn can deliver. So, all the misery over, now lunch. Weirdly, despite it all, Gregor wants his brother's opinion of a certain situation. It's all about different identities again; now they're not Emperor and subject, or commander and junior officer; now they're brothers. Oh, but - flipping back into a different role (or being a big brother) - tell the parents, and see a doctor. And, at the end, a truly personal apology, 'I'm sorry.' But it's truly heartfelt. And then lunch, with Gregor, Alys, and Laisa. Gregor in love is gorgeous and poignant and endearing. And Laisa is head over heels for him - and I think it's for Gregor, not for the Emperor. She sees him. It's funny - she was Laisa when Miles brought her to the Residence, now she's Dr Toscane. He's already aware of her changing status. It's a lovely meal - Gregor agonised over every item, to make sure it was perfect. And the horse - not just any horse, and he must have plenty, as well as (I'm sure) at least one mounted regiment. No, he's found The Horse, three Districts away, a perfect creature, groomed and decorated and possibly sedated until it was exactly right. Alys is busy catching up, and after all those years of producing tall willowy dark Vor beauties for him, she's watching Gregor falling for a short, bouncy, light-haired Komarran beauty. (Miles is the one who goes for the tall, dark Vor beauties. He has more traditional tastes.) A certain nameless half-wit suggested that Gregor liked boys - would that be Byerly Vorrutyer's contribution? Laisa is well-endowed, beautiful, smart and rich. But possibly her best feature, for Gregor, is that she's not Vor. (And also... maybe Gregor is slightly patterned on his foster parents? Like Aral, he's married a woman from another planet. Cordelia is red-haired, Laisa has light brown hair - neither are traditional dark-haired Vor.) Another point in her favour; she's used to being in the spotlight. She's one of THOSE Toscanes, heiress to the head of the dynasty, and she's used to media attention and public pressure. She might be able to cope with the eye-of-the-hurricane life of an Empress, better than some innocent Vor bud. Alys thinks Gregor sees Laisa as a mother-figure, but I don't really get that vibe. Alys is also worried about Duv. Miles plays the whole thing down a bit - Duv had hopes, yes, but hadn't done much about them yet. He knows Duv will be hurt, but there's nothing to be done. If Laisa really loved Duv she'd choose him, but she's obviously fallen hard for Gregor. Despite Miles demonstrating how cataclysmically bad his judgement can be, at least in some situations, Gregor still wants his opinion. And really, who else can he ask? And Gregor is terrified. This goes back, way back, to Shards. Cordelia pointed out that having a child, loving someone that much, makes you so vulnerable. Gregor is terrified that if he marries Laisa, he could be putting her in danger. Love makes you so desperately vulnerable. Of course, Gregor's mother dying, and the way she died, doesn't help. Miles manages to be reassuring, and Gregor wants to be reassured. People die every day, for all sorts of reasons. You can't let that stop you from grabbing at happiness. It's going to be a political minefield. ImpSec will have a collective fit. But... it's love, it's worth it, and he needs to go for it. This is for Gregor, not the Emperor, not the Empire. One thing for Gregor. He agonised over the meeting with Gregor - but it went pretty easily. Things don't turn out the way you expect. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Mar 1 15:09:57 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 15:09:57 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, Miles has faced Gregor. And his huge, terrible, life-ending mistake took a back seat when Gregor was far more interested in his own romance with Laisa; life rather than death. Poor Alys spent fifteen years looking for the perfect Vor maiden for Gregor, and instead he found his own bride - who is totally different from Alys's idea of the perfect Imperial partner. And Miles has had to look forward, and out, rather than inward. Focus on other people for a change. On a non-Miles note: I'd love to hear the conversation between Martin and Tsipis if Martin did hit something when he was practising his driving. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 15:24:48 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 09:24:48 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought that Laisa was a wonderful idea as an Imperial bride. One thing that we know Gregor's very concerned about is the streak of insanity in his family, and most if not all high Vor are related to him, more-or-less. Laisa...isn't. Also, this helps bind Komarr more tightly to Barrayar. Having half-Komarran heirs to the throne makes it harder for the Komarrans to see the Barrayaran Imperium as something alien and oppressive. On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 9:10 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Well, Miles has faced Gregor. And his huge, terrible, life-ending mistake > took a back seat when Gregor was far more interested in his own > romance with Laisa; life rather than death. > > Poor Alys spent fifteen years looking for the perfect Vor maiden for > Gregor, > and instead he found his own bride - who is totally different from Alys's > idea of the perfect Imperial partner. > > And Miles has had to look forward, and out, rather than inward. Focus on > other people for a change. > > On a non-Miles note: I'd love to hear the conversation between Martin > and Tsipis if Martin did hit something when he was practising his driving. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rgmolpus at flash.net Tue Mar 1 16:13:04 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 16:13:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <792222317.2620460.1646151184847@mail.yahoo.com> If I'm reading Alys's comments correctly, she kept sending Gregor women who looked like her - tall, shapely, statuesque. ? It seems Gregor likes them shorter, curvy, and capable of withstanding short famines (like in a siege). On Tuesday, March 1, 2022, 09:10:25 AM CST, Gwynne Powell wrote: Well, Miles has faced Gregor. And his huge, terrible, life-ending mistake took a back seat when Gregor was far more interested in his own romance with Laisa; life rather than death. Poor Alys spent fifteen years looking for the perfect Vor maiden for Gregor, and instead he found his own bride - who is totally different from Alys's idea of the perfect Imperial partner. And Miles has had to look forward, and out, rather than inward. Focus on other people for a change. On a non-Miles note: I'd love to hear the conversation between Martin and Tsipis if Martin did hit something when he was practising his driving. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From mathews55 at msn.com Tue Mar 1 16:35:08 2022 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 16:35:08 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, that crack about trying boys sounds like By's sense of humor. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2022 7:23 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 Martin isn't the most successful chauffeur, although to be fair the old Vorkosigan armoured groundcar isn't easy to drive (and how old is that thing, anyway? They had it before Miles was born, and he's thirty.) Miles isn't looking forward to a fun interview. He refers Martin to Tsipis if there's any problems; Miles won't be available. He also, ironically, warns Martin to beware of the forward momentum of such a heavy vehicle. It's Gregor's private office, in the wing that was rebuilt after his mother burnt it down. There has to be some important imagery there. And Gregor, who's surrounded by amazing antiques all the time, has a private office that's determinedly modern. The conversation is uncomfortable, but intimate. These two know each other very well, and there's no pretence here. That's one thing about losing Naismith: Miles was always putting on the best front, to convince them that Naismith was worth it. Now he doesn't have to pretend, or impress anyone. He's totally open, brutally honest - again, irony that his lie has freed him to be honest. Part of Gregor's disappointment is that he wanted someone of his own generation in a powerful position; he's spent his whole life working with old men. Be fair, they've done a great job. But still... it's hard having all that power but not really having it. Death by a thousand nibbles. Miles can't run to the Dendarii. Nobody could stop him if he was determined, but it'd be treason, a one-way trip, and dumb. Not fair to the Dendarii, either. (Besides, if he was going to do that he'd have done it already.) And Gregor is prepared to keep the Dendarii on, if Quinn can deliver. So, all the misery over, now lunch. Weirdly, despite it all, Gregor wants his brother's opinion of a certain situation. It's all about different identities again; now they're not Emperor and subject, or commander and junior officer; now they're brothers. Oh, but - flipping back into a different role (or being a big brother) - tell the parents, and see a doctor. And, at the end, a truly personal apology, 'I'm sorry.' But it's truly heartfelt. And then lunch, with Gregor, Alys, and Laisa. Gregor in love is gorgeous and poignant and endearing. And Laisa is head over heels for him - and I think it's for Gregor, not for the Emperor. She sees him. It's funny - she was Laisa when Miles brought her to the Residence, now she's Dr Toscane. He's already aware of her changing status. It's a lovely meal - Gregor agonised over every item, to make sure it was perfect. And the horse - not just any horse, and he must have plenty, as well as (I'm sure) at least one mounted regiment. No, he's found The Horse, three Districts away, a perfect creature, groomed and decorated and possibly sedated until it was exactly right. Alys is busy catching up, and after all those years of producing tall willowy dark Vor beauties for him, she's watching Gregor falling for a short, bouncy, light-haired Komarran beauty. (Miles is the one who goes for the tall, dark Vor beauties. He has more traditional tastes.) A certain nameless half-wit suggested that Gregor liked boys - would that be Byerly Vorrutyer's contribution? Laisa is well-endowed, beautiful, smart and rich. But possibly her best feature, for Gregor, is that she's not Vor. (And also... maybe Gregor is slightly patterned on his foster parents? Like Aral, he's married a woman from another planet. Cordelia is red-haired, Laisa has light brown hair - neither are traditional dark-haired Vor.) Another point in her favour; she's used to being in the spotlight. She's one of THOSE Toscanes, heiress to the head of the dynasty, and she's used to media attention and public pressure. She might be able to cope with the eye-of-the-hurricane life of an Empress, better than some innocent Vor bud. Alys thinks Gregor sees Laisa as a mother-figure, but I don't really get that vibe. Alys is also worried about Duv. Miles plays the whole thing down a bit - Duv had hopes, yes, but hadn't done much about them yet. He knows Duv will be hurt, but there's nothing to be done. If Laisa really loved Duv she'd choose him, but she's obviously fallen hard for Gregor. Despite Miles demonstrating how cataclysmically bad his judgement can be, at least in some situations, Gregor still wants his opinion. And really, who else can he ask? And Gregor is terrified. This goes back, way back, to Shards. Cordelia pointed out that having a child, loving someone that much, makes you so vulnerable. Gregor is terrified that if he marries Laisa, he could be putting her in danger. Love makes you so desperately vulnerable. Of course, Gregor's mother dying, and the way she died, doesn't help. Miles manages to be reassuring, and Gregor wants to be reassured. People die every day, for all sorts of reasons. You can't let that stop you from grabbing at happiness. It's going to be a political minefield. ImpSec will have a collective fit. But... it's love, it's worth it, and he needs to go for it. This is for Gregor, not the Emperor, not the Empire. One thing for Gregor. He agonised over the meeting with Gregor - but it went pretty easily. Things don't turn out the way you expect. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 17:27:14 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 12:27:14 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: <792222317.2620460.1646151184847@mail.yahoo.com> References: <792222317.2620460.1646151184847@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 11:13 AM Richard Molpus wrote: > If I'm reading Alys's comments correctly, she kept sending Gregor women > who looked like her - tall, shapely, statuesque. > > It seems Gregor likes them shorter, curvy, and capable of withstanding > short famines (like in a siege). > Not a mother figure for himself, but someone who will be a mother for his children... and not die (be killed) when they are young. Is Gregor allowed to bite his nails, or was that trained out of him? Sylvia From proto at panix.com Tue Mar 1 19:53:24 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 14:53:24 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33504404-A4D8-4C44-B311-F68DB0E0ADB7@panix.com> > On Mar 1, 2022, at 10:09 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > On a non-Miles note: I'd love to hear the conversation between Martin > and Tsipis if Martin did hit something when he was practicing his driving. I would like to hear the conversation where Miles tells Vorberg who chopped his legs and apologies. But I think Vorberg has figured out who done it, Illyan knew and probably spilled the beans. His security clearance has to be top flight, probably the security clearance level name is classified. ? Of course our planet has its mood swings ? it is, after all, bipolar. From lmb at matija.com Tue Mar 1 20:25:40 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 20:25:40 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36a4b9cc-c4f8-4a12-a82f-9de48320c278@matija.com> On 01/03/2022 15:24, Eric Oppen wrote: > I thought that Laisa was a wonderful idea as an Imperial bride. One thing > that we know Gregor's very concerned about is the streak of insanity in his > family, and most if not all high Vor are related to him, more-or-less. > Laisa...isn't. That's an interesting point. Gregor is acutely aware of his family history. Laisa is part of a family that has decided they can live with being part of a Barrayaran empire. To do that, one has to be willing/able to overlook some things. So perhaps some of the more unpleasant parts of the Vorbarra history may have been glazed over in her education. From fishman at panix.com Tue Mar 1 23:49:28 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2022 23:49:28 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Population In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds like Malthus. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" To: "Dendarri List" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 2/1/2022 2:58:26 PM Subject: [LMB] OT: Population >I've been rereading H. Beam Piper including his cross-time series. In it he said that, at 5 billion people, there would be massive starvation and the Earth would be uninhabitable except for the cross-time discovery. >I have seen that 5 billion figure several places. Of course, Piper was writing before the "Green Revolution" and many people still swear by Malthus. >However, that 5 billion figure interests me. Does anyone know of its origin? > >William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Mar 1 23:57:26 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 23:57:26 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Eric Oppen I thought that Laisa was a wonderful idea as an Imperial bride. One thing that we know Gregor's very concerned about is the streak of insanity in his family, and most if not all high Vor are related to him, more-or-less. Laisa...isn't. Also, this helps bind Komarr more tightly to Barrayar. Having half-Komarran heirs to the throne makes it harder for the Komarrans to see the Barrayaran Imperium as something alien and oppressive. Gwynne: All of the above. Plus there won't be any Vor in-laws; if he marries into a Vor family there'll always be intense politicking and pressure from the family, and hostility and suspicion from other Counts who suspect preferential treatment for the bride's family. Laisa's family are all safely far away. From pouncer at aol.com Wed Mar 2 00:10:05 2022 From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 18:10:05 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 - Comments References: Message-ID: Eric Oppen > One thing that we know Gregor's very concerned about is the streak of > insanity in his family, and most if not all high Vor are related > more-or-less. Laisa...isn't. Also, this helps bind Komarr more tightly > Barrayar. Having half-Komarran heirs to the throne makes it harder > the Komarrans to see the Barrayaran Imperium as something alien and > oppressive. Gwynne: >Plus there won't be any Vor in-laws; if he marries into a Vor family >there'll always be intense politicking and pressure from the >family, and hostility and suspicion from other Counts who suspect >preferential treatment for the bride's family. Laisa's family are all >safely far away. "Motivated Reasoning" ? https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/motivated-reasoning-as-mis-applied Do I love her because she's lovely, or is she lovely because I love her? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg6WrSCn95A The heart has reasons of which reasons knows nothing. https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/blaise_pascal_132990 Pouncer says the head can talk the heart (or some of the other bits) OUT of love, but can't persuade it INTO love. -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com From lbujold at myinfmail.com Wed Mar 2 00:17:33 2022 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 18:17:33 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 Message-ID: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 Pat Mathews mathews55 at msn.com Tue Mar 1 16:35:08 GMT 2022 PM:? Yes, that crack about trying boys sounds like By's sense of humor. LMB:? Absolutely.? Probably while reporting in to his not-so-blind drop at some point. Ta, L. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 2 02:28:26 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 02:28:26 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Pouncer Eric Oppen > One thing that we know Gregor's very concerned about is the streak of > insanity in his family, and most if not all high Vor are related > more-or-less. Laisa...isn't. Also, this helps bind Komarr more tightly > Barrayar. Having half-Komarran heirs to the throne makes it harder > the Komarrans to see the Barrayaran Imperium as something alien and > oppressive. Gwynne: >Plus there won't be any Vor in-laws; if he marries into a Vor family >there'll always be intense politicking and pressure from the >family, and hostility and suspicion from other Counts who suspect >preferential treatment for the bride's family. Laisa's family are all >safely far away. "Motivated Reasoning" ? https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fastralcodexten.substack.com%2Fp%2Fmotivated-reasoning-as-mis-applied&data=04%7C01%7C%7C6d3334fa008b4bf9f8a708d9fbe21407%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637817770687353149%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=YN46cBaOgRqOmAxZ5WU1pYnOzh3Ut5dRbEaUmgUDuwI%3D&reserved=0 Gwynne: Gregor certainly has a 'bad' checklist in his head - I think he had an instant hard no reaction to those Vor beauties; he was totally closed to the idea of falling for any of them, so there was no chance. Laisa got all the ticks on the good checklist, so he was instantly open to the idea of falling for her, very receptive. And all her good features strengthened that feeling. Plus he's feeling a lot of pressure - he's getting older, it's way past time, and the Empire needs the stability of knowing there's a safe next generation - and he has to have kids when he's young enough to raise them, he doesn't want to leave another child emperor behind, he knows how hard that role is on the poor child. It's interesting that Aral and Miles both worked pretty much the same way. Aral saw Cordelia - a female soldier - as someone who ticked a lot of his very special boxes, so he was very open to her, emotionally, from the start. Miles was searching for someone who was tall, dark, beautiful, Vor, smart and strong. And the lights and buzzers went off when he met Ekaterin. He'd have done nothing about it but then she became available - quick, grab this one before someone else does! Ivan didn't seem to function that way - he was interested in Tej's beauty, but he sees a lot of beautiful women. He stumbled into the relationship. Maybe his urge to settle down did push him a bit more towards one solution? But he doesn't have that very specific checklist that the others do. And By... a whole other case. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 02:51:59 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 20:51:59 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One big plus Tej had for Ivan was that, as a Jacksonian, she'd be considered utterly impossible as an Empress by the sort of people who might want to put Ivan on the camp stool. The fact that she's beautiful and bright didn't hurt anything, either. I noticed that Alys and Count Vorpatril were very much in favor of the marriage, which they wouldn't have likely been if Tej had been the sort of Vor gold-digger or wanna-be Empress that Ivan spent a lot of time dodging. On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 8:28 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Pouncer > > Eric Oppen > > One thing that we know Gregor's very concerned about is the streak of > > insanity in his family, and most if not all high Vor are related > > more-or-less. Laisa...isn't. Also, this helps bind Komarr more tightly > > Barrayar. Having half-Komarran heirs to the throne makes it harder > > the Komarrans to see the Barrayaran Imperium as something alien and > > oppressive. > > Gwynne: > >Plus there won't be any Vor in-laws; if he marries into a Vor family > >there'll always be intense politicking and pressure from the > >family, and hostility and suspicion from other Counts who suspect > >preferential treatment for the bride's family. Laisa's family are all > >safely far away. > > > "Motivated Reasoning" ? > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fastralcodexten.substack.com%2Fp%2Fmotivated-reasoning-as-mis-applied&data=04%7C01%7C%7C6d3334fa008b4bf9f8a708d9fbe21407%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637817770687353149%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=YN46cBaOgRqOmAxZ5WU1pYnOzh3Ut5dRbEaUmgUDuwI%3D&reserved=0 > > > Gwynne: Gregor certainly has a 'bad' checklist in his head - I think he had > an instant hard no reaction to those Vor beauties; he was totally closed > to the idea of falling for any of them, so there was no chance. Laisa > got all the ticks on the good checklist, so he was instantly open to the > idea > of falling for her, very receptive. And all her good features strengthened > that feeling. Plus he's feeling a lot of pressure - he's getting older, > it's way > past time, and the Empire needs the stability of knowing there's a safe > next generation - and he has to have kids when he's young enough to raise > them, he doesn't want to leave another child emperor behind, he knows how > hard that role is on the poor child. > > It's interesting that Aral and Miles both worked pretty much the same way. > Aral saw Cordelia - a female soldier - as someone who ticked a lot of his > very > special boxes, so he was very open to her, emotionally, from the start. > Miles > was searching for someone who was tall, dark, beautiful, Vor, smart and > strong. And the lights and buzzers went off when he met Ekaterin. He'd have > done nothing about it but then she became available - quick, grab this one > before someone else does! > > Ivan didn't seem to function that way - he was interested in Tej's beauty, > but > he sees a lot of beautiful women. He stumbled into the relationship. Maybe > his urge to settle down did push him a bit more towards one solution? But > he doesn't have that very specific checklist that the others do. > > And By... a whole other case. > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 04:44:18 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 22:44:18 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 5 In-Reply-To: <553E3192-B4B4-47FB-97DE-55BD3B1DDC46@panix.com> References: <553E3192-B4B4-47FB-97DE-55BD3B1DDC46@panix.com> Message-ID: I'm just as grateful she can write too. Her characters are the most fascinating and thought out characters and the plotlines are always thought provoking. On Sun, Feb 27, 2022, 6:00 PM WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > > > On Feb 27, 2022, at 5:52 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > > > I?m just grateful that she is still writing. The fact that she can go at > least semi multi-generational (there?s a word stretch) in all three of her > universes brings me hope. > > I can wish for something about Nikki or Natti-Mari without imposing too > much even though I retired to play with and chauffeur granddaughters 11 > years ago. > > > > William A Wenrich > > Well many people wished for an Ivan book and it was a gem. > > > ? > Of course our planet has its mood swings ? it is, after all, bipolar. > > > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From focsle1928 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 05:09:08 2022 From: focsle1928 at yahoo.com (Jane Hotchkiss) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 05:09:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] re Fanfic Lost and Found In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <950871678.14583.1646197748042@mail.yahoo.com> I've been rereading Gwynne's fanfic Lost and Found at AO3, which mentions Vortaxis the Brave, an obvious tribute to Scotland the Brave. I can't read this without going to YouTube & finding a bagpipe version. One of the "also suggested" vids is Edinburgh Military Tattoo: A salute to Australia 2005. I just spent an enjoyable nearly-2 hours getting my temporary fill of pipebands and drums. (My ancestry is partly Scots, but back 200+ years.)? I am awed at the pipers & drummers wearing their -heavy- -wool- uniforms in Sydney, with the audience sitting in shirtsleeves. Jane Hotchkiss From htgriffin at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 12:52:28 2022 From: htgriffin at yahoo.com (H. Torrance Griffin) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 12:52:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <586372366.55488.1646225548531@mail.yahoo.com> Let us give various political factions a little credit.? Aside from the full-on isolationists (which are a fair-sized chunk) a Jacksonian consort would have been something they could hold their nose about as the price for a controllable puppet Emperor.? Not optimal, but probably tolerable. The _openly_ half-Ceta/quarter-Haut part?? Not.? A.? Chance. On Wednesday, March 2, 2022, 07:00:05 AM EST, lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk wrote: From: Eric Oppen One big plus Tej had for Ivan was that, as a Jacksonian, she'd be considered utterly impossible as an Empress by the sort of people who might want to put Ivan on the camp stool.? The fact that she's beautiful and bright didn't hurt anything, either. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 2 13:03:17 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 13:03:17 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Eric Oppen One big plus Tej had for Ivan was that, as a Jacksonian, she'd be considered utterly impossible as an Empress by the sort of people who might want to put Ivan on the camp stool. The fact that she's beautiful and bright didn't hurt anything, either. I noticed that Alys and Count Vorpatril were very much in favor of the marriage, which they wouldn't have likely been if Tej had been the sort of Vor gold-digger or wanna-be Empress that Ivan spent a lot of time dodging. Gwynne: I think Alys was simply pleased to see him married to ANYONE by then. And there'd be no in-laws on-planet, which makes things a lot simpler. As for Falco... hmm... I sometimes wondered if Ivan was a bit of a threat - after all, Ivan is descended from an Emperor, he's very High-Vor, and very visible. He was the Viable Alternative and unofficial heir to Gregor for a long time, and then Gregor married and produced children, and I just wondered if Falco worried that Ivan could turn his eyes towards becoming Count Vorpatril. Highly unlikely, especially if you know Ivan, but Counts fuss about all kinds of odd things politically, and a Lord Vorpatril running around loose could have been a threat, if Falco's own heirs weren't up to scratch. Married off to someone from the Whole makes him far less of a threat, politically. From howard at brazee.net Wed Mar 2 13:11:43 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 06:11:43 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8BF17973-84BA-4359-A574-6197069DBC9C@brazee.net> > On Mar 2, 2022, at 6:03 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > I just wondered if Falco worried > that Ivan could turn his eyes towards becoming Count Vorpatril. Highly > unlikely, especially if you know Ivan, but Counts fuss about all kinds of odd things > politically, and a Lord Vorpatril running around loose could have been a threat, Sometimes, heirs get manipulated by others who have their own agendas. From proto at panix.com Wed Mar 2 09:20:10 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 04:20:10 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5E79E6F6-0461-455E-867D-F2F58D8D5250@panix.com> > On Mar 1, 2022, at 10:24 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > Also, this helps bind Komarr more tightly to Barrayar. Having > half-Komarran heirs to the throne makes it harder for the Komarrans to see > the Barrayaran Imperium as something alien and oppressive. Remember Komarr had an oligopolistic government system and still does where Barrayar doesn?t interfere. ? Sig intentionally left blank. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 2 13:40:56 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 13:40:56 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Miles loses his nerve and flees to his District. He shakes Ivan off at last, promising not to off himself. Poor Martin has been warned and is now alone with an employer who is apparently suicidal, crazy, and liable to have a seizure at any moment. (Military life is going to be a breeze after a couple of months working for Miles.) They fly down to the District, do a few laps to enjoy the scenery. Martin is rather dismissive about the District. Miles is insulted on behalf of his District. District people can tell jokes about it, but outsiders... ohhh no. The District, especially those in the mountains, fought hard and effectively against the Cetagandans. It cost them: their District is still one of the poorest, with so much war damage to repair. (Just like Miles - giving all for the Imperium, and paying a high personal price for it.) The flight over the radiation wastelands is interesting - for a given value of interesting that means outright terrifying, for Martin. Why did Piotr leave the radioactive wastelands to Miles? Was it a kick at him, or was it because it'd take so much longer before it was safe? Miles thinks it might be a bit safer when he's old - Martin assumes 'old' is in ten year's time, for Miles. Martin's on a steep learning curve, in oh so many ways. This job is good for him. In their wild youth Miles and Ivan flew lightflyers like screaming idiots. It seems so long ago, to Miles. It's funny - during the resignation scene he seemed so young, now he's thinking so old. Miles checks on his trees; the District is growin a lot of timber, it'll be ready in ten years or so. When you run a District you think long-term, you invest in the future. Miles is looking forwards now. He checks on the terraformers; another long-term job. But you do see the results of your work. Miles likes results, he just has to find some different ones now. Then on to Vorkosigan Surleau, and deep into memories again. The horses, pride of old Piotr. Not as fine now, but here's still a few for guests to ride. And Fat Ninny, Miles's horse, the one he raised himself. Lovely animal, terrible name. Like Miles, appearances (or in this case names) are deceptive. Of course, Miles can't ride, not with the seizures. One more joy he's lost. Swimming in the lake is gone, too. So is sailing - Martin might not even be able to swim, let alone sail a boat. Next week, as he lazes around, he turns thirty. A huge milestone, in the middle of his nothing existence. No parties, no happy friends and family around him. But then the calls come in on the comconsole. He flees the house and goes to visit friends in the graveyard - Miles has always been comfortable with the dead, he knows so many of them. But he can't get a conversation going with Piotr, he has nothing to say to him. He's finished with Piotr - he did it all, proved himself a hundred times over. There's no issues left. He needs to talk to a different grave. Now here's why this book is paired with MoM. He goes back to the village, where he found inspiration for his military career. It's only an hour by lightflyer to Silvy Vale. Four days by foot, an hour in the air - that's the huge difference between the hillfolk and their resources, and the outside world. Martin really wants to do some fun flying; all that care and slow travel is boring. (He didn't take to riding lessons, either. Poor Martin.) They do some flying lessons down the Dendarii Gorge - much slower than Miles used to fly, but probably enough to put Martin way ahead of the rest of his class, when he signs up. Miles probably shouldn't have told Martin that he wants to speak with someone who's dead. Martin is far too young to understand. Raina inspired Miles, Raina was the Lady he served, his career was meant to help people like her and make Barrayar a better place. Underneath all the glory and noise and victory and disaster, there was Raina - something pure, that gave it all meaning. He'd forgotten Raina, when he was so desperate to save Naismith. Naismith was his offering to the Empire. Naismith was the creation... but Vorkosigan was the creator. Where did he lost Vorkosigan? Facing Raina, the spirit of that long-dead baby, was going to be harder than any of his other apologies. But she's gone. The cemetery is gone. It's a lake. Things move on, and change. Even in Silvy Vale. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 2 13:58:12 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 13:58:12 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Miles is getting close to the heart of it. Raina was his pure inspiration, before it stopped being about her and about service to the Empire, and became all about Naismith. Right now he's floating in limbo. No plans, beyond a vague knowledge that he'll be running the District one day. The District is rolling along without him. He has nowhere to go, nothing to do. And no direction, no passion. Miles is very blank right now. His big birthday falls very flat (and it's a very big one, for Miles; if we believe Lois then his life is more than half over. * sniffle *) He achieved a lot in the first half of his life; he needs a plan for the rest, to fill in those long empty decades before his next death. He has nothing to say to Piotr. That conversation, that passion, is over and gone. He proved himself, then he succeeded wildly, then he failed. And it's done. (And Miles lied in his reports, a terrible crime. But Piotr made war against his Emperor - for good reasons, but still... Miles thought he had good reasons too. Vorkosigans are fanatically loyal, to a point. But they can be pushed too far.) Martin has no idea how lucky he is. By the time he signs up, he'll have a much better skill set, and a bit more of an idea about real life. Vorkosigan had passion and fire, once. He flew lightflyers down Dendarii Gorge at high speed with his eyes closed. He rode and swam and sailed. He had fun and friends and a full life - and then it all drained away. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 2 14:09:42 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 14:09:42 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Apology in advance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm birthday Tixie this month. I'm sure that there'll be no problems, but if I do happen to disappear for a few days, I apologise in advance. There's a bit of a problem here at the moment: the river I live beside is currently more than 12 metres higher than usual, and still rising fast. They're predicting 15 metres - that's higher than the flood last year (which was the once-in-a-century flood. It's been a fast century, apparently.) I'm totally safe, but if the power goes out it could be a few days before they get it back on, so... I'm sure I'll be around, and ok. But just in case... the Tixie will do everything tixily possible. Everyone else in Eastern Oz, I hope you get through the rain bomb ok. Take care, everyone. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Wed Mar 2 19:12:59 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2022 19:12:59 +0000 Subject: [LMB] re Fanfic Lost and Found In-Reply-To: <950871678.14583.1646197748042@mail.yahoo.com> References: <950871678.14583.1646197748042@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2cgv1h99h0um3bd5ac2smie3qsf56kh7rr@4ax.com> On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 05:09:08 +0000 (UTC), Jane Hotchkiss via Lois-Bujold wrote: > I've been rereading Gwynne's fanfic Lost and Found at AO3, which mentions Vortaxis the Brave, an obvious tribute to Scotland the Brave. I can't read this without going to YouTube & finding a bagpipe version. One of the "also suggested" vids is Edinburgh Military Tattoo: A salute to Australia 2005. I just spent an enjoyable nearly-2 hours getting my temporary fill of pipebands and drums. (My ancestry is partly Scots, but back 200+ years.)? I am awed at the pipers & drummers wearing their -heavy- -wool- uniforms in Sydney, with the audience sitting in shirtsleeves. >Jane Hotchkiss My wife's second cousin is in an Australian pipe band, and they wear that stuff *all the time*. -- Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. - Denis Diderot From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Wed Mar 2 19:13:45 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2022 19:13:45 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Population In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 01 Mar 2022 23:49:28 +0000, "Harvey Fishman" wrote: >Sounds like Malthus. Via the Club of Rome, perhaps? -- Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. - Denis Diderot From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 21:08:53 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 15:08:53 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 9 - Comments In-Reply-To: <8BF17973-84BA-4359-A574-6197069DBC9C@brazee.net> References: <8BF17973-84BA-4359-A574-6197069DBC9C@brazee.net> Message-ID: Well, paranoia does in that lot doesn't. On Wed, Mar 2, 2022, 7:11 AM Howard Brazee wrote: > > > > On Mar 2, 2022, at 6:03 AM, Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > > > I just wondered if Falco worried > > that Ivan could turn his eyes towards becoming Count Vorpatril. Highly > > unlikely, especially if you know Ivan, but Counts fuss about all kinds > of odd things > > politically, and a Lord Vorpatril running around loose could have been a > threat, > > Sometimes, heirs get manipulated by others who have their own agendas. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 21:19:20 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 15:19:20 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Apology in advance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Take care of yourself. I heard about the rains in Sydney. Here it's 76 Fahrenheit, 24.4 Celsius, with warmer then average weather in the next week or so. No sign of rain unfortunately. We might be getting hit by that "once every" 1400 year drought. On Wed, Mar 2, 2022, 8:09 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > I'm birthday Tixie this month. I'm sure that there'll be no problems, > but if I do happen to disappear for a few days, I apologise in advance. > There's a bit of a problem here at the moment: the river I live beside > is currently more than 12 metres higher than usual, and still rising > fast. They're predicting 15 metres - that's higher than the flood last > year (which was the once-in-a-century flood. It's been a fast century, > apparently.) I'm totally safe, but if the power goes out it could be a > few days before they get it back on, so... I'm sure I'll be around, and > ok. But just in case... the Tixie will do everything tixily possible. > > Everyone else in Eastern Oz, I hope you get through the rain bomb ok. > Take care, everyone. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 21:22:43 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 15:22:43 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Population In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I heard somewhere that the 5million population coincided with the year 2000. Huh! I feel nostalgic for 2000. On Wed, Mar 2, 2022, 1:13 PM Marc Wilson wrote: > On Tue, 01 Mar 2022 23:49:28 +0000, "Harvey Fishman" > wrote: > > >Sounds like Malthus. > > Via the Club of Rome, perhaps? > > -- > Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails > of the last priest. > - Denis Diderot > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From wawenri at msn.com Wed Mar 2 21:50:15 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 21:50:15 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Apology in advance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Flake care of yourself first. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Raymond Collins Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 2:19:20 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Apology in advance Take care of yourself. I heard about the rains in Sydney. Here it's 76 Fahrenheit, 24.4 Celsius, with warmer then average weather in the next week or so. No sign of rain unfortunately. We might be getting hit by that "once every" 1400 year drought. On Wed, Mar 2, 2022, 8:09 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > I'm birthday Tixie this month. I'm sure that there'll be no problems, > but if I do happen to disappear for a few days, I apologise in advance. > There's a bit of a problem here at the moment: the river I live beside > is currently more than 12 metres higher than usual, and still rising > fast. They're predicting 15 metres - that's higher than the flood last > year (which was the once-in-a-century flood. It's been a fast century, > apparently.) I'm totally safe, but if the power goes out it could be a > few days before they get it back on, so... I'm sure I'll be around, and > ok. But just in case... the Tixie will do everything tixily possible. > > Everyone else in Eastern Oz, I hope you get through the rain bomb ok. > Take care, everyone. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C904dcc8b34c5436855c008d9fc92638b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637818527931061894%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=5S5fapvcSkdjVYgoWNAt5%2FXpYhx5zjdqDKOsR2CSFkY%3D&reserved=0 > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C904dcc8b34c5436855c008d9fc92638b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637818527931061894%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=5S5fapvcSkdjVYgoWNAt5%2FXpYhx5zjdqDKOsR2CSFkY%3D&reserved=0 From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 01:56:32 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2022 20:56:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 8:58 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Miles is getting close to the heart of it. Raina was his pure > inspiration, before it stopped being about her and about > service to the Empire, and became all about Naismith. > > spoiler alert - Haroche was all about service to the Empire. Sire, I only want to serve you! If he won, how long before _he_ lost his inspiration and forgot about service to the Empire, before it became all about himself? From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Mar 3 04:14:59 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 04:14:59 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Sylvia McIvers On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 8:58 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > Miles is getting close to the heart of it. Raina was his pure > inspiration, before it stopped being about her and about > service to the Empire, and became all about Naismith. spoiler alert - Haroche was all about service to the Empire. Sire, I only want to serve you! If he won, how long before _he_ lost his inspiration and forgot about service to the Empire, before it became all about himself? Gwynne: Miles and Haroche... they both knowingly did the wrong thing to further their own careers. They each claimed to be loyal to the Imperium and to work well in its name. They each hurt people in their drive to succeed. So... differences? Miles hurt someone unintentionally, Haroche's plan required damage to someone else, and the sacrifice of someone he could frame for the crime; there's a very different mentality between the two of them. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Mar 3 13:08:10 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 13:08:10 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, I'm still here. The river has dropped from 13 metres to 12 1/2. I'm taking that as a good sign. So... Chapter 11. They go in search of answers - where has the cemetery gone? And why is there a lake there instead? They land beside the Speaker's house - still the same, but there's a few new places further down. A different man comes to meet him: it's a stranger. A stranger who knows him and is delighted to see him. It's Zed, the middle son. Life has moved on. His brother married a lowland girl, so his parents spend the winters down there now - that's a huge change from the isolated village it used to be. And Lem Csurik is the new Speaker - Miles set a whole lot of things in motion here. They're building a clinic. They have power lines and power tools for the construction. Silvy Vale has power tools now: years ago Miles gave them a small powersat and they had to get a new battery each year. Like everyone else, Lem is delighted to see Miles. Makes a change from all the gloom he's had lately. So, a clinic. And they're getting a real doctor - part of Cordelia's tied scholarships program. Building him a cottage, too. They built their dam to make hydroelectricity - that gives power tools and communication, which leads to even better things. Lem's also a darn good politician - he can wheel and deal with the best of them. They didn't wait their turn for the District to give them what they need; they made deals and pulled strings and built their dam. And the best site was the cemetery. With the dam they had power, they can build a clinic, they won a doctor in the District Lottery, and they can grow and do even more. He learned forward momentum from... someone. Miles assumes he means Harra, but Miles is the one who taught Harra to keep on pushing. They have a two-room school now, Harra's taught another teacher. Miles has to visit, of course. So, the Raina Csurik school. Harra runs the school, teaches the older children, and has children of her own as well - she's doing it all. And loving it. (Just for a moment she reminds me of Ekaterin, in GJ&RQ - run off her feet and loving it all. Fulfilled.) Miles gets huge points from me for this: he managed to sort things so that he was able to attend Harra's graduation. Not only did he get the time free, but he'd monitored things and kept track - considering his tumultuous life in the Nexus, that shows great dedication. None of these hill children have a hostile-mutie reaction. Miles is loved, in this village at least. By law, every even vaguely official building has to display a portrait of the Emperor, and of their Count. It's the closest most of them will ever get to either one. But this school has a pic of Miles as well. That message he sent all those years ago was more effective than he could imagine. He explains to Harra that he didn't come to celebrate, he came to burn an offering for Raina. Turns out, they moved the graves when the dam was built - but Raina was gone, the tiny baby gone back to the soil. They left her and Harra's mother in the old cemetery. The school is the tribute to Raina, anyway. Every day is an offering to her. Miles wanted his life to mean something, and make a difference. Raina lived for just a few days, but her tiny life - and cruel death - set so much in motion too. Lunch with Harra and Lem to meet their children, and chat, while the village gears up. Because that night it's party time! Miles can't leave, not when they're going to so much trouble. Besides, this is the most use he's been to anyone lately. Martin looks down his nose at the country bumpkins for a while, but ends up having a great time, teaching the younger generation all the latest dances from Vorbarr Sultana. Martin also meets maple mead; another useful lesson. But later at night, as the fire burns low... what was he looking for here? And has he found it? Was he trying to cleanse himself and start fresh? He wanted healing, or destruction - he was so sick of being paralysed in nothingness. He ended up beside the lake after all, but with Lem and Harra. They respect him, but there's no subservience here. He realises he needs Harra's wisdom: "I have to tell you something," Miles said to Harra. "Knew there was something wrong," she said. "I hope you're not dying or something." He didn't have his throat cut to kill him, but to live - he does everything backwards, it seems. He tells her the bare-bones version of the situation. "Does this mean you'll be spending more time in the District?" "Maybe." "Good." Harra is ruthless - she learned that from the past, too. Her own mother killed her child, and was judged for it in front of everyone. She knows all about bitterness and shame. And survival. And here's the heart of it all: "You go on. You just go on. There's nothing more to it, and there's no trick to make it easier. You just go on." "What do you find on the other side? When you go on?" She shrugged. "Your life again. What else?" "Is that a promise?" She picked up a pebble, fingered it, and tossed it into the water. The moon-lines bloomed and danced. "It's an inevitability. No trick. No choice. You just go on." So easy, and so hard. ?But Miles came here for answers, and he has them. What Martin has is a life-destroying hangover. Maple mead is probably toxic, and nobody but mad mountain people like the stuff. They fly home very slowly and carefully. So. The people here don't need a Naismith-style hero. They need Lem and Harra, working tirelessly. Actually, they needed Lord Vorkosigan, too - Lem talks about how the dam gave them the boost they needed to get things going, but Miles did the same, earlier - by training Harra and Lem. Without Miles, Silvy Vale would still be a sad huddle of huts struggling along and getting nowhere. Well, if thirty was a milestone, if middle age starts at thirty, then Miles has another half a life to Get Things Done. He's turned the corner, he's ready to do.... something. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Mar 3 13:17:37 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 13:17:37 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So we're back to MoM. Miles planted some seeds that have flourished over time. In the ten years that he was being Naismith, Harra and Lem learned so much, then went back to the village and made a huge difference. And things are moving faster now, there's education for all the children, constant contact with the outside world, power to run tools and more, a clinic and a doctor - and holiday cottages around the dam, which should be a nice income stream for the village. Harra is ruthless, which is just what Miles needs. And her advice is the heart of it all - no matter how bad things are, you just go on. You pick up the threads of your life and move forward with things. No special tricks (And Naismith was all about tricks) no shortcuts (Also Naismith.) Just sheer determined hard work. And Miles has turned himself inside out, he's cleansed the poison, he's out of limbo and ready for.... what? Something. Anything. But whatever, it's better than the frozen limbo. And all the time he was out being Naismith, Lord Vorkosigan's work here was paying off hugely. From proto at panix.com Thu Mar 3 13:22:43 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 08:22:43 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 10 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47BF70B4-8998-41D1-8C1A-6C73ECA01F4F@panix.com> > On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:14 PM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > spoiler alert - Haroche was all about service to the Empire. Sire, I only > want to serve you! > If he won, how long before _he_ lost his inspiration and forgot about > service to the Empire, before it became all about himself? That was his conscious thought, his underlying thoughts however, are probably not be so benign. Ambition is basically lust for personal power and not a virtue. ? It?s better to be approximately correct than completely wrong. From proto at panix.com Thu Mar 3 13:32:37 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 08:32:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41259997-C245-4DF7-B5D4-485494A1888F@panix.com> > On Mar 3, 2022, at 8:17 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > And all the time he was out being Naismith, Lord Vorkosigan's > work here was paying off hugely. And the village is a beacon for other hardscrabble villages. They drew inspiration from another village for the hydroelectric dam. This is no doubt spreading. ? MD. MS. in Law Robert Lustig ?If there?s a label on the food, it?s a warning label. That means it has been processed. Real food doesn?t need a label.? From wawenri at msn.com Thu Mar 3 13:36:39 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 13:36:39 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- Gwynne Powell wrote: And things are moving faster now, there's education for all the children, constant contact with the outside world, power to run tools and more, a clinic and a doctor - and holiday cottages around the dam, which should be a nice income stream for the village. Harra is ruthless, which is just what Miles needs. And her advice is the heart of it all - no matter how bad things are, you just go on. You pick up the threads of your life and move forward with things. No special tricks (And Naismith was all about tricks) no shortcuts (Also Naismith.) Just sheer determined hard work. And Miles has turned himself inside out, he's cleansed the poison, he's out of limbo and ready for.... what? Something. Anything. But whatever, it's better than the frozen limbo. ========================================================== I consider this chapter to be a second inflection point in Miles story in this book. The first being the ice bath. The third, still to come, is his decision to go to Gregor in his house uniform and ALL of his medals. Miles is still has a mob, just not the Dendarii. William A Wenrich Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. From listmail at gordonj.net Thu Mar 3 14:02:51 2022 From: listmail at gordonj.net (Gordon Jackson) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 14:02:51 -0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: re Fanfic Lost and Found Message-ID: <00b401d82f07$61477860$23d66920$@gordonj.net> I once attended the Edinburgh Military Tattoo at the Sydney Football Ground, it was surreal. They had major issues controlling horse droppings. I can't say for Australia, but New Zealand has more pipe bands than Scotland. When performing in public they always wear all the traditional gear. Must be especially difficult for the Drum Major and the bass drummer. -----Original Message----- From: Lois-Bujold On Behalf Of Jane Hotchkiss via Lois-Bujold Sent: 02 March 2022 05:09 To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Cc: Jane Hotchkiss Subject: [LMB] re Fanfic Lost and Found I've been rereading Gwynne's fanfic Lost and Found at AO3, which mentions Vortaxis the Brave, an obvious tribute to Scotland the Brave. I can't read this without going to YouTube & finding a bagpipe version. One of the "also suggested" vids is Edinburgh Military Tattoo: A salute to Australia 2005. I just spent an enjoyable nearly-2 hours getting my temporary fill of pipebands and drums. (My ancestry is partly Scots, but back 200+ years.) I am awed at the pipers & drummers wearing their -heavy- -wool- uniforms in Sydney, with the audience sitting in shirtsleeves. Jane Hotchkiss -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to listmail at gordonj.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From fishman at panix.com Fri Mar 4 00:53:30 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 00:53:30 +0000 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> Message-ID: The idea of a plural for Deus is against The First Commandment!! Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "WalterStuartBushell" To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 2/8/2022 2:38:56 PM Subject: Re: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME > > >> On Feb 8, 2022, at 11:04 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: >> >> I think it?s "Divi ex mechinae," but my Latin is weak. > >I have little Latin and less Greek, but I think the term comes from the Greek. > >We studied Greek drama in a frosh introductory course. > >? >In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. >Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over." >--tweet by British columnist, Dan Hodges, June 15, 2015? > >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From lmb at matija.com Fri Mar 4 07:53:23 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 07:53:23 +0000 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> Message-ID: <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> On 04/03/2022 00:53, Harvey Fishman wrote: > The idea of a plural for Deus is against The First Commandment!! > > Harvey Ummm, no it isn't. In fact, the first commandment itself uses the plural of Deus. What the first commandment is against is having another god before Y. Which implies that there are other godS. I seem to recall that there were several other gods in that pantheon before the hebrews made their religion monotheistic, but I don't recall the details. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Mar 4 10:01:40 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 10:01:40 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Big beautiful happy birthday! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The birthday Tixie squelshes into the room. Made it! So, on to the important stuff. Today we celebrate the birthday of Ed Burkhead. Hugs and happies, Ed! We hope it's a wonderful day for you. And for your special celebration you'll be spending the day with the Dendarii fleet - Daring Rescues Their Specialty. And you'll be taking part in one of their exciting engagements! You'll be right there in the front lines as they board a pirate vessel to retrieve some hostages. Live weapon fire! Small unexpected bombs! Even possibly some intense hand-to-hand combat! (Don't worry, they'll teach you all the really dirty holds and throws before the teams go in.) And then, after their stunning victory, and mopping up all the bad guys (and liberating whatever ill-gotten gains they might have had on board) you'll celebrate with the victors. It'll be a wild night. Have a great birthday, Ed. From howard at brazee.net Fri Mar 4 13:23:18 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 06:23:18 -0700 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 4, 2022, at 12:53 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > >> The idea of a plural for Deus is against The First Commandment!! >> >> Harvey > > Ummm, no it isn't. In fact, the first commandment itself uses the plural of Deus. > > What the first commandment is against is having another god before Y. > > Which implies that there are other godS. > > I seem to recall that there were several other gods in that pantheon before the hebrews made their religion monotheistic, but I don't recall the details. The Bible mentions other gods by name. Non-literalists don?t have a problem with that. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Mar 4 15:13:27 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 15:13:27 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Back at Vorkosigan Surleau, Martin staggers off to finish his hangover (I would have thought they'd have hangover cures by then; what have their scientists been doing for the last few centuries.) Gregor, Ivan, a few other friends, Mark (sending probably the first birthday congratulations ever - Mark is really a baby in some ways, very new to the world.) And his parents. His parents - rulers of a planet, people who stride through history - sound like most other parents. Love you, miss you, please come and see us, write. Oh, and they want to know about Laisa, too. Basically they're just happy that Gregor has picked someone, anyone, and might have an heir soon. Cordelia also wants him to be happy - she sees the person, not the role. He has to tell Mark and his parents. That won't be easy. He put it off for one more day by going back to Vorbarr Sultana. Ma Kosti has been studying the rules and requirements for a cook in a High Vor house. Then at last he started working on the message to his parents - but a message came in. Only Ivan, but still a welcome break. Although Ivan is calling to nag about seeing a doctor - give him points for taking his Miles-wrangling seriously. Miles can't see the point of rushing: it won't get him back into ImpSec, it wasn't the seizures that got him tossed, it was the lying. Ivan, being organised, has made a list of non-military clinics, as an alternative. Ivan can't understand why Miles is delaying, he expected MIles to head back to the Dendarii. Miles explains that it would mean breaking his word, and committing treason. "Yeah?" said Ivan. "If you're not coming back, what does your word as Vorkosigan have to do with anything ever again?" Good point. 'Soon' doesn't satisfy Ivan, he wants a definite date. And Miles knows he won't let up. (Doesn't anyone see that steel in Ivan? Most people run a mile from Miles.) So, why has he delayed? To buy time. Time for what? Was he afraid that it couldn't be fixed, or that it could? And if he was fixed, he'd have to make a run for the Dendarii. What's he afraid of? Was all this a plot by his subconscious to avoid going back into combat? No. He'd gone back. And he'd gone back every time, after all the injuries, right up to death and back. Ivan said that Miles would always keep on blasting over or through any wall that blocked him (shades of the obstacle that stopped him from getting into the Academy?) So... if he ran, and they let him live, he'd keep on fighting. And... what then? How many times did he have to prove that he could do it? No, this wasn't cowardice. He didn't have to prove anything. He didn't have to run away from conflict, or towards it. He was tired of 'playing wall', of always having to destroy any obstacle. So why was he delaying treatment? Miles is starting to have some discussions with himself - that's one advantage of having several identities. He sends a message to his parents - slowly. He told Quinn, too. Not as he would have liked, knowing that ImpSec monitored their messages. Next night Ivan invited himself to dinner, and romanced Ma Kosti. Martin announces some ImpSec stiff-rod calling him. Martin is useful, but lacks a little polish. It's not Illyan, it's Duv. And he's livid: "You smarmy goddamn little pimp," Yes, Gregor and Laisa are engaged, and they told Laisa's old friend, Duv. Miles has seen what Duv can do when he's REALLY angry. And he's incandescent right now. Ivan tries to stop Duv from saying anything dangerous - he's thinking fast. Miles is trying to apologise. Seriously, this one isn't Miles's fault - he was just trying to help. NOBODY could have predicted that Gregor would fall hard and fast, and that Laisa would too. Fortunately Duv played nice with Laisa and Gregor, and saved the bile for Miles - that's a sort of sign of friendship and trust. Really. Ivan critiques Duv's romantic technique (which, to be fair, was pretty slow and out of tune with her. But this really isn't the moment.) And also, to be fair, Gregor didn't just click his fingers, he went through mental agonies trying to court her - not that he needed to, she was well in. Can I say that I just love the 'Barrayaran sugar-plum-fairy' line. Those uniforms.... Duv finally runs down and cuts the com. Miles and Ivan wait, knowing an official call is coming. Gregor and Laisa are glowing, totally in love. It's cute seeing Gregor so happy for a change. Gregor wants Miles as his Second, and of course Aral and Cordelia on the inner circle as his parents - family is everything. Alys is headed to Komarr - well that'll take care of any diplomatic problems. Nobody would dare make a problem when Alys is there. It's two months till the betrothal ceremony, up to a year for the wedding. Alys can swing the Vor dragons their way, which brings everyone else on board as well. Oh and a second wedding on Komarr. (You notice that Sergyar doesn't get one. I'm going to start a campaign for Sergyaran equality. Sooner or later they're going to have BIG problems if they don't pay more attention to Sergyar.) Gregor send Alys to inform Simon. Hmmmm. Gregor wants Cordelia to come and help, or at least be supportive. He also wants Miles to add his encouragement - because it's so hard to detach Cordelia from Aral. (I want MUMMY!) And once again Miles has saved Barrayar. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Mar 4 15:22:14 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 15:22:14 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 12 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Miles is starting to wonder why he's doing what he's doing. Why is he delaying treatment? He's not scared of combat, but ... he's tired of playing wall. Of running headlong at every obstacle. Of proving himself, again and again. How many times do you have to prove that you're not a coward, or that you're as good as everyone else, or whatever. He's just tired of that compulsion. This is a HUGE step. It was a wall that stopped Miles from going to the Academy in the normal way. So he got in anyway. Yes, he's been dealing with walls for a long time. Poor Duv. He has no clue about romance, and he's totally not in tune with Laisa - he was pretty much doomed there, from the start. But his sugar-plum-fairy rant is heartbreaking and hilarious. Yes, it's the uniforms, and the shiny boots. (Men in uniform is a popular thing, imagine being surrounded by men in Barrayaran uniforms. All of them tall, dark and handsome. Eye candy extreme.) Miles is out of that frozen nothingness now. He's still a bit aimless, but he's thinking, and dealing with life. Ready to move on. Gregor in love - he's so sweet. But Laisa really is brave; you'd have to really love the man to marry an Emperor, especially if you were Laisa and had plenty of money and status already. Alys vs Komarr - a fair fight? From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Fri Mar 4 16:07:41 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 16:07:41 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 15:13:27 +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: >Back at Vorkosigan Surleau, Martin staggers off to finish his >hangover (I would have thought they'd have hangover cures >by then; what have their scientists been doing for the last few >centuries.) Desperately adapting crops? -- It is impossible to enjoy idling thoroughly unless one has plenty of work to do, There is no fun in doing nothing when you have nothing to do. Wasting time is merely an occupation then, and a most exhausting one. Idleness, like kisses, to be sweet must be stolen. - Jerome K. Jerome From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Fri Mar 4 16:12:02 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 16:12:02 +0000 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 04 Mar 2022 00:53:30 +0000, "Harvey Fishman" wrote: >The idea of a plural for Deus is against The First Commandment!! Not if you read in carefully.... "You shall have no other gods but me" rather implies (in fact uses!) the plural form. Not that I'm interested in any sky-daddy nonsense, but it's at least grammatically consistent. -- It is impossible to enjoy idling thoroughly unless one has plenty of work to do, There is no fun in doing nothing when you have nothing to do. Wasting time is merely an occupation then, and a most exhausting one. Idleness, like kisses, to be sweet must be stolen. - Jerome K. Jerome From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Fri Mar 4 16:12:59 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 16:12:59 +0000 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 06:23:18 -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: > > >> On Mar 4, 2022, at 12:53 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: >> >>> The idea of a plural for Deus is against The First Commandment!! >>> >>> Harvey >> >> Ummm, no it isn't. In fact, the first commandment itself uses the plural of Deus. >> >> What the first commandment is against is having another god before Y. >> >> Which implies that there are other godS. >> >> I seem to recall that there were several other gods in that pantheon before the hebrews made their religion monotheistic, but I don't recall the details. > >The Bible mentions other gods by name. Non-literalists don?t have a problem with that. The literalists have their hands full trying to make pi=3. -- It is impossible to enjoy idling thoroughly unless one has plenty of work to do, There is no fun in doing nothing when you have nothing to do. Wasting time is merely an occupation then, and a most exhausting one. Idleness, like kisses, to be sweet must be stolen. - Jerome K. Jerome From howard at brazee.net Fri Mar 4 16:20:34 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 09:20:34 -0700 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 4, 2022, at 9:12 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > >> The Bible mentions other gods by name. Non-literalists don?t have a problem with that. > > The literalists have their hands full trying to make pi=3. To one significant digit, pi=3. People arguing against that need to come up with the ?proper? number of significant digits for pi. From lmb at matija.com Fri Mar 4 17:04:25 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 17:04:25 +0000 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> Message-ID: <78712d06-a50b-4b80-31d7-a0dfe1ac0885@matija.com> On 04/03/2022 16:20, Howard Brazee wrote: > >> On Mar 4, 2022, at 9:12 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: >> >>> The Bible mentions other gods by name. Non-literalists don?t have a problem with that. >> The literalists have their hands full trying to make pi=3. > To one significant digit, pi=3. > > People arguing against that need to come up with the ?proper? number of significant digits for pi. 1 Kings 7:23 (the source of the controversy) says? ??measuring 10 cubits from rim to rim? It took a line of of 30 cubits to measure around it?. In that case, one should use AT LEAST two significant digits, since all the other quoted measurements do. From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Fri Mar 4 18:11:18 2022 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 10:11:18 -0800 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> Message-ID: <9E8351A6-0C09-4C02-A98B-71FB453217F4@comcast.net> > On Mar 4, 2022, at 8:20 AM, Howard Brazee wrote: > > > >> On Mar 4, 2022, at 9:12 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: >> >>> The Bible mentions other gods by name. Non-literalists don?t have a problem with that. >> >> The literalists have their hands full trying to make pi=3. > > To one significant digit, pi=3. > > People arguing against that need to come up with the ?proper? number of significant digits for pi. So what would the eccentricity of an ellipse be if it had a circumference 3 times longer than its major axis? I did some research (there is no exact formula for the circumference of an ellipse), and it appears that the eccentricity would be about .44. "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com From howard at brazee.net Fri Mar 4 18:51:29 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 11:51:29 -0700 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: <78712d06-a50b-4b80-31d7-a0dfe1ac0885@matija.com> References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> <78712d06-a50b-4b80-31d7-a0dfe1ac0885@matija.com> Message-ID: <6D9F6E0D-E500-45E8-A0B7-371F6EA628C6@brazee.net> > On Mar 4, 2022, at 10:04 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > >> To one significant digit, pi=3. >> >> People arguing against that need to come up with the ?proper? number of significant digits for pi. > 1 Kings 7:23 (the source of the controversy) says ??measuring 10 cubits from rim to rim? It took a line of of 30 cubits to measure around it?. > In that case, one should use AT LEAST two significant digits, since all the other quoted measurements do. I?m not assuming that those were 2 significant digits. Was there a measurement that was 10 cubits available for them to use? From becca7108 at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 19:08:35 2022 From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 14:08:35 -0500 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: <6D9F6E0D-E500-45E8-A0B7-371F6EA628C6@brazee.net> References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> <78712d06-a50b-4b80-31d7-a0dfe1ac0885@matija.com> <6D9F6E0D-E500-45E8-A0B7-371F6EA628C6@brazee.net> Message-ID: I must have missed the original email about a mention in Time? can someone send me a link to it? From proto at panix.com Fri Mar 4 20:01:01 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 15:01:01 -0500 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 3, 2022, at 7:53 PM, Harvey Fishman wrote: > > The idea of a plural for Deus is against The First Commandment!! > > Harvey So? ? Of course our planet has its mood swings ? it is, after all, bipolar. From huntkc at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 20:40:30 2022 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 15:40:30 -0500 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> <78712d06-a50b-4b80-31d7-a0dfe1ac0885@matija.com> <6D9F6E0D-E500-45E8-A0B7-371F6EA628C6@brazee.net> Message-ID: The link is: https://time.com/6144766/sci-fi-fantasy-books-that-deserve-movie-adaptations/ On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 2:09 PM Becca Price wrote: > I must have missed the original email about a mention in Time? can > someone send me a link to it? > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to huntkc at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From becca7108 at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 21:23:19 2022 From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 16:23:19 -0500 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> <78712d06-a50b-4b80-31d7-a0dfe1ac0885@matija.com> <6D9F6E0D-E500-45E8-A0B7-371F6EA628C6@brazee.net> Message-ID: Thanks, Karen! On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 3:40 PM Karen Hunt wrote: > > The link is: > https://time.com/6144766/sci-fi-fantasy-books-that-deserve-movie-adaptations/ > > On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 2:09 PM Becca Price wrote: > > > I must have missed the original email about a mention in Time? can > > someone send me a link to it? > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to huntkc at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to becca7108 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 04:05:18 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 22:05:18 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, I'm still stuck on one floor. My copy of "Memory" Is down stairs so I placed a hold on a copy at the library which someone will deliver to me. So thank you Gwynne for getting me interested in reading the book again. On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 7:08 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Yes, I'm still here. The river has dropped from 13 metres to 12 1/2. I'm > taking > that as a good sign. > > So... Chapter 11. > > They go in search of answers - where has the cemetery gone? And > why is there a lake there instead? > > They land beside the Speaker's house - still the same, but there's a > few new places further down. A different man comes to meet him: > it's a stranger. A stranger who knows him and is delighted to see him. > It's Zed, the middle son. Life has moved on. His brother married a > lowland girl, so his parents spend the winters down there now - that's > a huge change from the isolated village it used to be. And Lem Csurik > is the new Speaker - Miles set a whole lot of things in motion here. > > They're building a clinic. They have power lines and power tools for > the construction. Silvy Vale has power tools now: years ago Miles gave > them a small powersat and they had to get a new battery each year. > > Like everyone else, Lem is delighted to see Miles. Makes a change from > all the gloom he's had lately. > > So, a clinic. And they're getting a real doctor - part of Cordelia's tied > scholarships program. Building him a cottage, too. They built their > dam to make hydroelectricity - that gives power tools and communication, > which leads to even better things. Lem's also a darn good politician - he > can wheel and deal with the best of them. They didn't wait their turn > for the District to give them what they need; they made deals and pulled > strings and built their dam. > > And the best site was the cemetery. With the dam they had power, they > can build a clinic, they won a doctor in the District Lottery, and they can > grow and do even more. He learned forward momentum from... someone. > Miles assumes he means Harra, but Miles is the one who taught Harra to > keep on pushing. > > They have a two-room school now, Harra's taught another teacher. Miles > has to visit, of course. > > So, the Raina Csurik school. Harra runs the school, teaches the older > children, and has children of her own as well - she's doing it all. And > loving it. (Just for a moment she reminds me of Ekaterin, in GJ&RQ - > run off her feet and loving it all. Fulfilled.) > > Miles gets huge points from me for this: he managed to sort things > so that he was able to attend Harra's graduation. Not only did he > get the time free, but he'd monitored things and kept track - considering > his tumultuous life in the Nexus, that shows great dedication. > > None of these hill children have a hostile-mutie reaction. Miles > is loved, in this village at least. By law, every even vaguely official > building has to display a portrait of the Emperor, and of their > Count. It's the closest most of them will ever get to either one. > But this school has a pic of Miles as well. That message he sent > all those years ago was more effective than he could imagine. > > He explains to Harra that he didn't come to celebrate, he came > to burn an offering for Raina. Turns out, they moved the graves > when the dam was built - but Raina was gone, the tiny baby > gone back to the soil. They left her and Harra's mother in the > old cemetery. The school is the tribute to Raina, anyway. Every > day is an offering to her. > > Miles wanted his life to mean something, and make a difference. > Raina lived for just a few days, but her tiny life - and cruel death - > set so much in motion too. > > Lunch with Harra and Lem to meet their children, and chat, while > the village gears up. Because that night it's party time! Miles > can't leave, not when they're going to so much trouble. Besides, > this is the most use he's been to anyone lately. > > Martin looks down his nose at the country bumpkins for a while, > but ends up having a great time, teaching the younger generation > all the latest dances from Vorbarr Sultana. Martin also meets maple > mead; another useful lesson. > > But later at night, as the fire burns low... what was he looking for > here? And has he found it? Was he trying to cleanse himself > and start fresh? He wanted healing, or destruction - he was so > sick of being paralysed in nothingness. > > He ended up beside the lake after all, but with Lem and Harra. > They respect him, but there's no subservience here. He realises > he needs Harra's wisdom: > "I have to tell you something," Miles said to Harra. > "Knew there was something wrong," she said. "I hope you're not dying or > something." > > He didn't have his throat cut to kill him, but to live - he does > everything backwards, it seems. He tells her the bare-bones > version of the situation. > > "Does this mean you'll be spending more time in the District?" > "Maybe." > "Good." > Harra is ruthless - she learned that from the past, too. Her own > mother killed her child, and was judged for it in front of everyone. > She knows all about bitterness and shame. And survival. > > And here's the heart of it all: > "You go on. You just go on. There's nothing more to it, and there's no > trick to make it easier. You just go on." > "What do you find on the other side? When you go on?" > She shrugged. "Your life again. What else?" > "Is that a promise?" > She picked up a pebble, fingered it, and tossed it into the water. The > moon-lines bloomed and danced. "It's an inevitability. No trick. No choice. > You just go on." > > So easy, and so hard. ?But Miles came here for answers, and he has them. > > What Martin has is a life-destroying hangover. Maple mead is > probably toxic, and nobody but mad mountain people like the > stuff. They fly home very slowly and carefully. > > So. The people here don't need a Naismith-style hero. They need > Lem and Harra, working tirelessly. Actually, they needed Lord > Vorkosigan, too - Lem talks about how the dam gave them the > boost they needed to get things going, but Miles did the same, > earlier - by training Harra and Lem. Without Miles, Silvy Vale > would still be a sad huddle of huts struggling along and getting > nowhere. > > Well, if thirty was a milestone, if middle age starts at thirty, then > Miles has another half a life to Get Things Done. He's turned the > corner, he's ready to do.... something. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Sat Mar 5 04:11:34 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 21:11:34 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9A6527FE-E3A4-4B99-9614-15E75A610159@brazee.net> > On Mar 4, 2022, at 9:05 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > Well, I'm still stuck on one floor. My copy of "Memory" Is down stairs so > I placed a hold on a copy at the library which someone will deliver to me. > So thank you Gwynne for getting me interested in reading the book again. It was worth it to me to duplicate all of my dead-tree Bujold books with ebooks. A side-benefit is that I can search them electronically. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Mar 5 07:47:38 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 07:47:38 +0000 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Howard Brazee >> Harvey > I seem to recall that there were several other gods in that pantheon before the hebrews made their religion monotheistic, but I don't recall the details. Gwynne: It's interesting that so many religions have a pantheon of gods - almost as if that's wired in. Even monotheistic religions tend to cheat a bit; the saints in the Christian religion function pretty much like minor gods in most pantheons. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Mar 5 07:49:47 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 07:49:47 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Marc Wilson wrote: >Back at Vorkosigan Surleau, Martin staggers off to finish his >hangover (I would have thought they'd have hangover cures >by then; what have their scientists been doing for the last few >centuries.) Desperately adapting crops? Gwynne: They had time to invent Maple Mead. That should have given them the incentive to invent a hangover cure. From beatrice_otter at zoho.com Sat Mar 5 08:20:32 2022 From: beatrice_otter at zoho.com (Beatrice Otter) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2022 00:20:32 -0800 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> Message-ID: <17f592a83c1.103b6396f381528.8130182331081708448@zoho.com> ---- On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 23:53:23 -0800 Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote ----? What the first commandment is against is having another god before Y. Which implies that there are other godS. I seem to recall that there were several other gods in that pantheon before the hebrews made their religion monotheistic, but I don't recall the details. Beatrice Otter: That's a matter of *great* debate even among non-Christian and non-Jewish archaeologists, because the evidence is scanty and there's no easy way to separate out the settlements belonging to Hebrew people from those belonging to their neighbors. We know there were multiple related groups with similar material cultures living in that area before the time of the kings (which is when the historical record of the Hebrew people begins). We know that, by that point, the story they told about their history was that they had been nomads who were enslaved in Egypt for a few generations, escaped, came to Canaan, and conquered it. There is no evidence whatsoever in Egypt of any sizeable group of people leaving in any time period that might be close to when the Exodus takes place. There is no evidence whatsoever in Palestine of a new tribe coming in in any plausible century for the conquering of Canaan to have taken place. There are no new styles of pottery showing up, no new styles of buildings, no new styles of jewelry, no new styles of anything. One of the plausible theories is that there was a *small* group of people who escaped from Egypt and moved in to Canaan, small enough not to leave much historical record, and after having mostly assimilated into the material culture of their neighbors they became the dominant group politically, such that some neighboring tribes joined in and started believing that their ancestors, too, had been part of the group from Egypt. But it's only a theory, and there are many others. Point is, we don't really know much about what groups were in that region and how they came to think of themselves as one people, and what gods they might have worshiped at different points. There were polytheist groups in that area ... but we don't need archaeology to tell us that, the Bible tells us that too. And there were periods in which Hebrew people worshiped multiple gods; the Bible tells us that, too, and archaeology supports it. What we don't know is if they were polytheists and then after becoming monotheists they retconned themselves into believing that they'd always been (or at least aspired to be) monotheists. In any case, the appropriate term for the beliefs of most of the Hebrew Bible is *not* monotheism, but rather henotheism. Henotheism is the religious system where one acknowledges that many other gods exist, but you only *worship* your *own* god or goddess. You may be thinking of Asherah. Asherah was a goddess in many semitic cultures, and may have at one point been worshiped by the ancient Hebrews as well. There is some evidence that this is true both archaeologically and Biblically. But, again, we have little evidence about whether this was a common thing, or something that just happened occasionally, or something that happened in older times but gradually stopped and got written out of the Bible, or what. One of the things I find frustrating about archaeology and history of the Ancient Near East is how many people, both scholars and non-scholars, have an axe to grind. Christian literalists will do anything to "prove" that the Bible is literally true and twist things to fit. Militant atheists will do anything to "prove" that the Bible is complete nonsense with no contact with reality and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot, and twist things to fit. News media will do anything for sensational headlines that will shock people, and will twist things to fit. There's been a lot of archaeology of that region over the last couple of centuries, and we've learned a lot of really interesting stuff. Problem is, the things people most want firm hard answers on ... very often aren't the sort of questions the archaeological record can answer with any certainty. Beatrice Otter From howard at brazee.net Sat Mar 5 13:20:04 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 06:20:04 -0700 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1A89CBE5-44E8-41D0-820B-741995C8E6EA@brazee.net> > On Mar 5, 2022, at 12:47 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Gwynne: It's interesting that so many religions have a pantheon of gods - > almost as if that's wired in. Even monotheistic religions tend to cheat a bit; > the saints in the Christian religion function pretty much like minor gods in > most pantheons. People specialize. We go to a tinker for tinker work. A god (or angel) of fertility is treated differently from a god (or angel) of war. I suppose the word avatar might be appropriate. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Mar 5 15:49:09 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 15:49:09 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 13 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ivan's busy helping Alys get ready for Komarr, so he's not nagging Miles. Alys gives Miles several kilos of wedding information - oh bliss. It's centuries since an Emperor got married, so really the rules are whatever Alys says they are. For the first time in his life, Miles doesn't have a goal. He's always been aimed at something, this is new territory for him. Drou, the substitute Secretary, invites him to an event at the Residence - Gregor is still in courtship mode, or at least entertaining Laisa. He sees Vorberg, slightly shorter than he was before, leaving after a medal ceremony. Vorberg isn't a fan of the Dendarii mercenaries. Side note: How did Miles get away with naming them the Dendarii, and nobody wondered about that? Especially with a suspiciously short admiral. Laisa is being introduced to Gregor's social circle. Drou is like a second (or third?) mother, and Gregor is relieved that she and Laisa get on well. (And as a non-Vor mixing in the highest circles, she can give good advice. Alys will be massively helpful but she can be a bit... er... set in her ways?) Laisa's doing fine, she's coping with it all. Miles enjoys watching all the guests trying to avoid the Imperial couple as they all wander in the gardens. Miles had a chat with Delia. She asks about Duv; how's he coping with Laisa's engagement. Miles said he courted too slow; Delia is sick of young men who move too fast, she'd prefer a more mature man who takes his time. Everyone seems to be getting married, Delia thinks it's contagious. A few days later Martin announces 'Somebody came to the door' - and the somebody is Duv, who's right behind him. Martin really needs some lessons in House behaviour, he's just an overgrown kid. Duv has come to apologise. But wait, there's more... He's concerned that Simon has made some mistakes. Simon, Mr Memory, doesn't make mistakes. He's asked for files he already had, put the wrong date on something, addressed a memo to someone who'd been gone for five months. These are not the sort of mistakes that Simon makes. Ever. In a briefing he seemed to lose track of what he was saying, several times. And he couldn't stay on track. Too many mistakes, in such a short time. Duv's spidey sense is tingling. Is it long-delayed chip psychosis? Simon tends to fit jobs to people, rather than people to jobs. It's a more personal style, but it's been very effective. But... what can they do? Wait, watch. There's nobody they can go to, not yet. Oh, and Duv is Komarran. Of all the people in ImpSec, Duv is the last one who can rock the boat. Two days later Simon calls Miles. He's angry that Miles is late, he's supposed to be in the office to get his new mission. The mission is to break someone out of a Cetagandan prison camp. Great idea... five years ago. Not good. From huntkc at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 15:53:05 2022 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 10:53:05 -0500 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: <17f592a83c1.103b6396f381528.8130182331081708448@zoho.com> References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> <17f592a83c1.103b6396f381528.8130182331081708448@zoho.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 3:20 AM Beatrice Otter via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > ---- On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 23:53:23 -0800 Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold > wrote ---- > [much snippage] > Point is, we don't really know much about what groups were in that region > and how they came to think of themselves as one people, and what gods they > might have worshiped at different points. There were polytheist groups in > that area ... but we don't need archaeology to tell us that, the Bible > tells us that too. And there were periods in which Hebrew people worshiped > multiple gods; the Bible tells us that, too, and archaeology supports it. > What we don't know is if they were polytheists and then after becoming > monotheists they retconned themselves into believing that they'd always > been (or at least aspired to be) monotheists. > > In any case, the appropriate term for the beliefs of most of the Hebrew > Bible is *not* monotheism, but rather henotheism. Henotheism is the > religious system where one acknowledges that many other gods exist, but you > only *worship* your *own* god or goddess. > Reminds me of a question I've had about information I've seen/read in the past. Many religions have a history of or currently do worship mountains. (Gotta agree, they're impressive.) The Old Testament during the times of the kings really got into measuring a king's goodness by how much they did or did not act against the various mountain "high places" and by New Testament times, the question of whether to worship at the Mount of Olives or Mount Gerizim came up in the discussion between Jesus and the Samaritan woman. Many psalms have God speaking to mountains, Exodus had God speaking from a mountain, etc. What is the nearest thing to a consensus here? Was there some mountain worship going on, or were they simply the best places to put temples? (And were the high places in competition with Solomon's temple, or what?) From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Mar 5 15:58:23 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 15:58:23 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 13 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's like walking downstairs in the dark, and forgetting that last step. So you go to walk forward and there's nothing there. Simon - his chip, his memory, has been one of the strong foundations of the saga since it all began. And, like Miles's alter ego, Simon's chip has stolen his life. Simon has no family. No hobbies, no social life. He doesn't even have a home; he moved into ImpSec headquarters at one point, and never left. He lives and works in that sealed, windowless building, and he could be in there for days on end. His amazing memory has made him successful at his job, but hollowed out his life; just like Naismith did to Lord Vorkosigan. And both of them are betrayed by problems in the brain. From fred.fredex at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 16:03:42 2022 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:03:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've always heard that the best hangover cure is a bit of "hair of the dog",... i.e., a bit (and only a bit) of the poison that bit you last night. On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 2:49 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Marc Wilson > > wrote: > >Back at Vorkosigan Surleau, Martin staggers off to finish his > >hangover (I would have thought they'd have hangover cures > >by then; what have their scientists been doing for the last few > >centuries.) > > Desperately adapting crops? > > Gwynne: They had time to invent Maple Mead. That should have > given them the incentive to invent a hangover cure. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From lbujold at myinfmail.com Sat Mar 5 16:29:16 2022 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 10:29:16 -0600 Subject: [LMB] now nomenclature was nice surprise mention in of all places TIME Message-ID: <4301bfb3-4cfc-93db-e4ea-50492bf23cd4@myinfmail.com> [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME Beatrice Otter beatrice_otter at zoho.com Sat Mar 5 08:20:32 GMT 2022 Beatrice Otter: In any case, the appropriate term for the beliefs of most of the Hebrew Bible is *not* monotheism, but rather henotheism. Henotheism is the religious system where one acknowledges that many other gods exist, but you only *worship* your *own* god or goddess. LMB:? Aha, I learned a new word today!? (And a very useful one for the 5GU, too.)? Thanks! I note with amusement that my spellcheck doesn't recognize it either. L. From pouncer at aol.com Sat Mar 5 16:34:11 2022 From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 10:34:11 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 13 References: Message-ID: Gwynne: > Two days later Simon calls Miles. He's angry that Miles is late, he's > supposed to be in the office to get his new mission. The mission > is to break someone out of a Cetagandan prison camp. Great idea... > five years ago. Not good. Is it not significant that the plot break arrives at Chapter THIRTEEN ? I can't see any padding in earlier chapters needed to delay this reveal, nor crucial points shorted from the early chapters and back filled from later chapters. It just seems again very deft craftsmanship to get this sort of "bad consequence" in place for a readership culturally conditioned to the bad luck around the sixth prime integer. -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Sat Mar 5 16:47:20 2022 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 08:47:20 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 13 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <81F8F80C-FAAF-460D-968E-8B5F8217D1FA@comcast.net> On Mar 5, 2022, at 7:49 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > > Ivan's busy helping Alys get ready for Komarr, so he's not nagging > Miles. Alys gives Miles several kilos of wedding information - oh > bliss. It's centuries since an Emperor got married, so really the > rules are whatever Alys says they are. > > Duv has come to apologise. But wait, there's more... He's concerned > that Simon has made some mistakes. Simon, Mr Memory, doesn't > make mistakes. He's asked for files he already had, put the wrong > date on something, addressed a memo to someone who'd been > gone for five months. These are not the sort of mistakes that Simon > makes. Ever. In a briefing he seemed to lose track of what he was > saying, several times. And he couldn't stay on track. > > > Two days later Simon calls Miles. He's angry that Miles is late, he's > supposed to be in the office to get his new mission. The mission > is to break someone out of a Cetagandan prison camp. Great idea... > five years ago. > IMHO, Mlles hits bottom at the end of Chapter 10. This is where he starts to climb out of the pit. "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com From beatrice_otter at zoho.com Sat Mar 5 17:57:54 2022 From: beatrice_otter at zoho.com (Beatrice Otter) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2022 09:57:54 -0800 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> <17f592a83c1.103b6396f381528.8130182331081708448@zoho.com> Message-ID: <17f5b3b1bad.b9b4a154386688.7139621103408558901@zoho.com> ---- On Sat, 05 Mar 2022 07:53:05 -0800 Karen Hunt wrote ---- Reminds me of a question I've had about information I've seen/read in the past. Many religions have a history of or currently do worship mountains. (Gotta agree, they're impressive.) The Old Testament during the times of the kings really got into measuring a king's goodness by how much they did or did not act against the various mountain "high places" and by New Testament times, the question of whether to worship at the Mount of Olives or Mount Gerizim came up in the discussion between Jesus and the Samaritan woman. Many psalms have God speaking to mountains, Exodus had God speaking from a mountain, etc. What is the nearest thing to a consensus here? Was there some mountain worship going on, or were they simply the best places to put temples? (And were the high places in competition with Solomon's temple, or what?) Beatrice Otter: The entire problem with worship in the high places was that such shrines were not under the control of the central religious authority of the Temple. As such, they were often either politically or religiously rogue; for example, it was a lot easier to add a statue of a god to an outdoor shrine than to the main temple. It's got nothing to do with the mountains and hills per se, and everything to do with control. And if you're going to lead a rebellion against the king and you want religious backing, you're sure not going to get that backing from the Temple but you *might* get it from one of the other shrines. And the question between the Samaritan woman and Jesus about Jerusalem vs. Gerizim was about ethnic conflict. See, the Samarians (who still exist today!) and the Jews both worship the same God and were originally one people. After the death of Solomon, the kingdom of Israel split in two: Israel, the northern kingdom, and Judah, the southern kingdom, which included the city of Jerusalem and thus the beautiful temple Solomon had just built. Obviously, the northern kingdom wasn't going to say that the southern kingdom was the only place to worship God, so they built their own temple, which was on Mount Samaria, aka Mount Gerizim. Which Judah then denounced because of political reasons with a very thin covering of religious reasons. Anyway, a couple centuries later, Israel (but not Judah) was conquered by Assyria (in 722BCE), which took away half their people (the Ten Lost Tribes) and deposited a bunch of foreigners in their place, as was the standard method for conquering empires in those days. A century after *that* Assyria was conquered by the Babylonians, who then conquered Judah (587 BCE) and took away half their people while replacing them with foreigners. Babylon was conquered by Persia a few decades after *that*, and the Persians let everyone go home. A lot of Judahites went home, and those that remained in Babylon retained their cultural and religious identity. These people who had been in exile in Babylon are the ones who shaped the Hebrew Bible as we have it today. Anyway, those returning Exiles were very clear that *they* were the great faithful ones, and *their* beliefs and practices were the right ones, and *their* version of scripture was the right one, and any other people descended from inhabitants of Judah and Israel were welcome to call themselves Jews and worshipers of the One God *if and only if* they acknowledged this. And the people of Israel had never been very fond of the people of Judah *anyway*, so that wasn't going to happen. And the Jews called them Samaritans because they worshiped on Mount Samaria. And that's what the conversation between Jesus and the Samaritan woman about which mountain to worship on is about: she wants to know if this Jewish teacher is going to be an asshole about her being Samaritan and pressure her to converting to Judaism (when they worship the same God, after all.) Beatrice Otter From huntkc at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 18:05:28 2022 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 13:05:28 -0500 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: <17f5b3b1bad.b9b4a154386688.7139621103408558901@zoho.com> References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> <17f592a83c1.103b6396f381528.8130182331081708448@zoho.com> <17f5b3b1bad.b9b4a154386688.7139621103408558901@zoho.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 12:58 PM Beatrice Otter via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > ---- On Sat, 05 Mar 2022 07:53:05 -0800 Karen Hunt huntkc at gmail.com> wrote ---- > > Reminds me of a question I've had about information I've seen/read in the > past. Many religions have a history of or currently do worship mountains. > (Gotta agree, they're impressive.) > > The Old Testament during the times of the kings really got into measuring > a > king's goodness by how much they did or did not act against the various > mountain "high places" and by New Testament times, the question of whether > to worship at the Mount of Olives or Mount Gerizim came up in the > discussion between Jesus and the Samaritan woman. Many psalms have God > speaking to mountains, Exodus had God speaking from a mountain, etc. > > What is the nearest thing to a consensus here? Was there some mountain > worship going on, or were they simply the best places to put temples? (And > were the high places in competition with Solomon's temple, or what?) > > > Beatrice Otter: > The entire problem with worship in the high places was that such shrines > were not under the control of the central religious authority of the > Temple. As such, they were often either politically or religiously rogue; > for example, it was a lot easier to add a statue of a god to an outdoor > shrine than to the main temple. It's got nothing to do with the mountains > and hills per se, and everything to do with control. And if you're going to > lead a rebellion against the king and you want religious backing, you're > sure not going to get that backing from the Temple but you *might* get it > from one of the other shrines. > > And the question between the Samaritan woman and Jesus about Jerusalem vs. > Gerizim was about ethnic conflict. See, the Samarians (who still exist > today!) and the Jews both worship the same God and were originally one > people. After the death of Solomon, the kingdom of Israel split in two: > Israel, the northern kingdom, and Judah, the southern kingdom, which > included the city of Jerusalem and thus the beautiful temple Solomon had > just built. Obviously, the northern kingdom wasn't going to say that the > southern kingdom was the only place to worship God, so they built their own > temple, which was on Mount Samaria, aka Mount Gerizim. Which Judah then > denounced because of political reasons with a very thin covering of > religious reasons. Anyway, a couple centuries later, Israel (but not Judah) > was conquered by Assyria (in 722BCE), which took away half their people > (the Ten Lost Tribes) and deposited a bunch of foreigners in their place, > as was the standard method for conquering empir! > es in those days. A century after *that* Assyria was conquered by the > Babylonians, who then conquered Judah (587 BCE) and took away half their > people while replacing them with foreigners. Babylon was conquered by > Persia a few decades after *that*, and the Persians let everyone go home. A > lot of Judahites went home, and those that remained in Babylon retained > their cultural and religious identity. These people who had been in exile > in Babylon are the ones who shaped the Hebrew Bible as we have it today. > > Anyway, those returning Exiles were very clear that *they* were the great > faithful ones, and *their* beliefs and practices were the right ones, and > *their* version of scripture was the right one, and any other people > descended from inhabitants of Judah and Israel were welcome to call > themselves Jews and worshipers of the One God *if and only if* they > acknowledged this. And the people of Israel had never been very fond of the > people of Judah *anyway*, so that wasn't going to happen. And the Jews > called them Samaritans because they worshiped on Mount Samaria. And that's > what the conversation between Jesus and the Samaritan woman about which > mountain to worship on is about: she wants to know if this Jewish teacher > is going to be an asshole about her being Samaritan and pressure her to > converting to Judaism (when they worship the same God, after all.) > Thanks for the infodump! :-) From howard at brazee.net Sat Mar 5 18:13:49 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 11:13:49 -0700 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: <17f5b3b1bad.b9b4a154386688.7139621103408558901@zoho.com> References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> <17f592a83c1.103b6396f381528.8130182331081708448@zoho.com> <17f5b3b1bad.b9b4a154386688.7139621103408558901@zoho.com> Message-ID: <105BAFDC-73B9-44D8-9060-644473D16ADD@brazee.net> > On Mar 5, 2022, at 10:57 AM, Beatrice Otter via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > The entire problem with worship in the high places was that such shrines were not under the control of the central religious authority of the Temple. As such, they were often either politically or religiously rogue; for example, it was a lot easier to add a statue of a god to an outdoor shrine than to the main temple. It's got nothing to do with the mountains and hills per se, and everything to do with control. And if you're going to lead a rebellion against the king and you want religious backing, you're sure not going to get that backing from the Temple but you *might* get it from one of the other shrines. I?m reminded of the Albigensian Crusade. Power corrupts all. From rgmolpus at flash.net Sat Mar 5 19:10:08 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard G. Molpus) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 19:10:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: <105BAFDC-73B9-44D8-9060-644473D16ADD@brazee.net> References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> <17f592a83c1.103b6396f381528.8130182331081708448@zoho.com> <17f5b3b1bad.b9b4a154386688.7139621103408558901@zoho.com> <105BAFDC-73B9-44D8-9060-644473D16ADD@brazee.net> Message-ID: <421422682.592806.1646507408058@mail.yahoo.com> If you ran the Central Temple, you collected the tithes. Who wanted competition when it comes to collect taxes? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 12:14 PM, Howard Brazee wrote: > On Mar 5, 2022, at 10:57 AM, Beatrice Otter via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > The entire problem with worship in the high places was that such shrines were not under the control of the central religious authority of the Temple. As such, they were often either politically or religiously rogue; for example, it was a lot easier to add a statue of a god to an outdoor shrine than to the main temple. It's got nothing to do with the mountains and hills per se, and everything to do with control. And if you're going to lead a rebellion against the king and you want religious backing, you're sure not going to get that backing from the Temple but you *might* get it from one of the other shrines. I?m reminded of the Albigensian Crusade.? ? Power corrupts all. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From matt.msg at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 19:55:30 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 14:55:30 -0500 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:53 PM Harvey Fishman wrote: > The idea of a plural for Deus is against The First Commandment!! > No, it's not. The First prohibits "having any god before me". It doesn't prohibit conceiving of the existence of multiple gods, acknowledging the existence of gods other than Yahweh, or even worshipping other gods - as long as they aren't given greater honor than I AM THAT I AM. Matt "would it really matter if it did?" G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 21:02:07 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 16:02:07 -0500 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> <17f592a83c1.103b6396f381528.8130182331081708448@zoho.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 10:53 AM Karen Hunt wrote: > > What is the nearest thing to a consensus here? Was there some mountain > worship going on, or were they simply the best places to put temples? tl;dr: It's not a useful question, and we can't find an answer anyway. For obvious psychological reasons, it's easy to consider mountains to be sacred. Distinguishing between considering a mountain to be sacred, and worshipping the mountain itself, isn't always easy - and isn't always meaningful. There's a sort of "folk religion" that actual religious practice tends to converge towards, regardless of what doctrines and philosophical positions are formally espoused. Christians and Jews abhor idolatry, in theory, but in practice they assign all sorts of magical properties to sacred objects - both historically speaking, and right now in the modern world. Veneration of the Holy Mother keeps verging into what is sometimes called Mariolatry, and there are multiple Christians sects that believe in Sophia, a sort of female divinity that arose from the Creation of God the Father. (Including, weirdly enough, the sects that gave rise to the Amish.) If you insist on projecting masculinity onto divinity, people tend to project femininity onto it as well. Taoism has temples that people visit to make ceremonial offerings and purchase sacred charms for luck and protection, even though the more philosophical aspects of Taoism have nothing to do with such practices. There are universal human psychological needs that religious practice accommodates regardless of doctrine. See the various wars fought early in the history of Christianity over icons and religious images for other examples. If you went back in time to a sufficient degree, I suspect you'd find people who considered any sacred mountain to be worth worshipping in itself as an object. That includes the sacred mountains of the Jews and Samaritans. It's akin to the argument that every human being has cannibals in their ancestry, if you go back far enough. The issue is at what point in time does that cease being the case - and at least for several centuries before the time of Christ, those mountains were considered sacred but not things to be worshipped in themselves, not merely in the esoteric and refined teachings, but in the understanding of the common people. The practical differences are pretty much negligible. Matt G. From saffronrose at me.com Sat Mar 5 23:26:34 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 15:26:34 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: Sacred Mountains, was: nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 5, 2022, at 1:01 PM, Matthew George wrote: > > For obvious psychological reasons, it's easy to consider mountains to be > sacred. Distinguishing between considering a mountain to be sacred, and > worshipping the mountain itself, isn't always easy - and isn't always > meaningful. Snip > If you went back in time to a sufficient degree, I suspect you'd find > people who considered any sacred mountain to be worth worshipping in itself > as an object. That includes the sacred mountains of the Jews and > Samaritans. It's akin to the argument that every human being has cannibals > in their ancestry, if you go back far enough. The issue is at what point > in time does that cease being the case - and at least for several centuries > before the time of Christ, those mountains were considered sacred but not > things to be worshipped in themselves, not merely in the esoteric and > refined teachings, but in the understanding of the common people. The > practical differences are pretty much negligible. Here?s what Wikipedia says about sacred mountains. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_mountains Unfortunately, while various Indigenous Nations and Tribes have banned uranium mining on their lands, and the EPA is still cleaning up the poisons of closed mines, there is a lot of pressure to (re)open mines. https://www.democracynow.org/2014/3/14/a_slow_genocide_of_the_people The San Francisco Peaks and Mt Taylor, sacred to several tribes & Nations, have been desecrated by toxic uranium mines, and mining employment and practices are racist towards Native Peoples. Marina From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 03:05:39 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 22:05:39 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 13 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 10:58 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > And, like Miles's alter ego, Simon's chip has stolen his life. > Simon has no family. No hobbies, no social life. He doesn't even > have a home; he moved into ImpSec headquarters at one point, > and never left. He lives and works in that sealed, windowless > building, and he could be in there for days on end. His amazing > memory has made him successful at his job, but hollowed out > his life; just like Naismith did to Lord Vorkosigan. > Oh, nice parallel. From fakempe at hotmail.com Sun Mar 6 04:57:34 2022 From: fakempe at hotmail.com (Frank Kempe) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 04:57:34 +0000 Subject: [LMB] now nomenclature was nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: <4301bfb3-4cfc-93db-e4ea-50492bf23cd4@myinfmail.com> References: <4301bfb3-4cfc-93db-e4ea-50492bf23cd4@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: I was also surprised to learn a new word, but exists in Webster?s Collegiate, 11th Edition. Frank K Sent from Mail for Windows From: Lois Bujold Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 9:29 AM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] now nomenclature was nice surprise mention in of all places TIME [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME Beatrice Otter beatrice_otter at zoho.com Sat Mar 5 08:20:32 GMT 2022 Beatrice Otter: In any case, the appropriate term for the beliefs of most of the Hebrew Bible is *not* monotheism, but rather henotheism. Henotheism is the religious system where one acknowledges that many other gods exist, but you only *worship* your *own* god or goddess. LMB: Aha, I learned a new word today! (And a very useful one for the 5GU, too.) Thanks! I note with amusement that my spellcheck doesn't recognize it either. L. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fakempe at hotmail.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 05:24:06 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 23:24:06 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 13 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You could call Simon a workaholic, but so was/is Miles. Miles had a lot to prove. Simon just had a huge, extremely responsible job. On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 9:06 PM Sylvia McIvers wrote: > On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 10:58 AM Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > > > > And, like Miles's alter ego, Simon's chip has stolen his life. > > Simon has no family. No hobbies, no social life. He doesn't even > > have a home; he moved into ImpSec headquarters at one point, > > and never left. He lives and works in that sealed, windowless > > building, and he could be in there for days on end. His amazing > > memory has made him successful at his job, but hollowed out > > his life; just like Naismith did to Lord Vorkosigan. > > > > Oh, nice parallel. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 08:52:40 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 02:52:40 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: <9A6527FE-E3A4-4B99-9614-15E75A610159@brazee.net> References: <9A6527FE-E3A4-4B99-9614-15E75A610159@brazee.net> Message-ID: Well, you have a point there. I should back up my dead tree books with ebooks. And I should since Lois Mcmaster Bujold works come out in ebook format first. But I have this problem of reading fiction on a tablet. I can read the news, depressing as all hell, I can read scientific and historical papers and treatise on tablets. But, when comes to fiction or novels, I worry i might lose the story, or my device might crash. Or etc. Etc. So I'm comfortable reading paper books with no off switches or batteries. I guess I'm idiosyncratic about technology. I just don't trust the the device I'm using, because, they either fail or become obsolete. On Fri, Mar 4, 2022, 10:11 PM Howard Brazee wrote: > > > > On Mar 4, 2022, at 9:05 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > > Well, I'm still stuck on one floor. My copy of "Memory" Is down stairs > so > > I placed a hold on a copy at the library which someone will deliver to > me. > > So thank you Gwynne for getting me interested in reading the book again. > > It was worth it to me to duplicate all of my dead-tree Bujold books with > ebooks. > > A side-benefit is that I can search them electronically. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Mar 6 12:46:21 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 12:46:21 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Raymond Collins Well, you have a point there. I should back up my dead tree books with ebooks. And I should since Lois Mcmaster Bujold works come out in ebook format first. But I have this problem of reading fiction on a tablet. I can read the news, depressing as all hell, I can read scientific and historical papers and treatise on tablets. But, when comes to fiction or novels, I worry i might lose the story, or my device might crash. Or etc. Etc. So I'm comfortable reading paper books with no off switches or batteries. I guess I'm idiosyncratic about technology. I just don't trust the the device I'm using, because, they either fail or become obsolete. Gwynne: I don't trust ebooks, I'm always afraid they'll vanish - or, more likely, that I'll do something stupid and lose access to them. I always worry when I change to a new laptop. And I never wanted to give up on treebooks (I still have plenty!) But a few years of taking people to doctors and medical treatment, and spending time in waiting rooms and hospitals, changed my mind. It's so handy to be able to grab my phone and dial up a book, and escape. Mind you, treebooks are still safer for reading in a bubble bath. From sdean at sdean.net Sun Mar 6 13:05:31 2022 From: sdean at sdean.net (Stewart Dean) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2022 13:05:31 +0000 Subject: [LMB] A five gods dream Message-ID: For the second night, I've had these [Elephants on Parade](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wR8FL_2gwI) dreams... Night before last, the aristocracy (not the priesthood) representing the Five Gods had all been taken off (plague, insurrection, dunno) and I am some sort of Adjudicator told off to seek out whatever distant heirs there might be to step into their shoes. Not much enthusiasm on the part of me or them. For whatever reason, they are located, embody or whatever the 4 cardinal points of the compass, N, S, E, W. There were lesser figures for SSW, W by N, etc. Fine. Last night, I got around to the Bastard...who got the four intermediate compass points, SE,SW,NW,NE as they are not cardinal points but equidistant between, thus being neither and falling into His grab bag. The wonderful inconsistent consistent 'reason' of the Unconscious...... -- -- "Wherein you have censured others, and established yourselves "upon the Word of God." Is it therefore infallibly agreeable to the Word of God, all that you say? I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken. " Oliver Cromwell in a letter to the Synod of the Church of Scotland, http://www.cyberussr.com/hcunn/q-cromwell-beseech.html Stewart Dean sdean @ sdean.net, 845 - 336 - 4815, Kingston, NY From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Mar 6 13:06:07 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 13:06:07 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 14 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So... what can Miles do? He's the last person who can make any kind of accusation or query about Simon, it'd just be put down to revenge. And there aren't too many people who have the power to do anything about it, anyway. And how long has this been going on? How suspect are Simon's recent decisions? And no, it's not a way to get back in, he was as thorough in getting fired as he was at everything else. No way back. Kick it on to someone else. So he calls Haroche. Takes a while to get a response, Haroche isn't at all interested in him. He just tells Haroche to check Simon's recent call to Miles, that should be enough. Should he call Gregor? No, Haroche will do that. Chain of command, and all. He spent all day doing nothing, tried to call Gregor and Haroche in the evening, nobody replied. Miles does NOT like being out of the loop. Galeni turns up the next day - Miles is probably the only person Duv can safely talk to about all this. Simon had a spectacular meltdown. Haroche hadn't followed up on Miles's call, apparently. Duv comments that Simon fights dirty - and having seen what Duv can do, that's either a compliment or it's horrifying. Why did Haroche move so slowly? Well, it's hard to arrest your superior officer. (And how did I miss ALL the red flags the first time I read this book? I can't remember when I started screaming 'It's Haroche! It's Haroche!' but it was probably disgracefully late in the book. But at least the worst is over, Simon is getting treatment. Miles goes to ImpSec the next morning. Haroche won't let (him; Simon is gabbling classified information. But Miles has the highest security clearance. Oops no, Haroche zeroes it (Which is silly considering his family connections; he'd have to have at least a reasonable level because of everything he already knows, and all the things he absorbs through the family. Look at Ivan, people tell him everything.) No visit. Miles calls Gregor. Who tells him to back off and let Haroche get up to speed. Miles sees Simon as a sort of foster uncle, and he also feels responsible for him; it's a Vor thing. Gregor is pleased that Miles has any Vor feelings at all. Ouch. Miles does nag Gregor into daily updates. Things are badly wrong. Mile is practically twitching with the wrongness of it all. And he has to wait - which is his least favourite thing. From howard at brazee.net Sun Mar 6 13:21:39 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 06:21:39 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: <9A6527FE-E3A4-4B99-9614-15E75A610159@brazee.net> Message-ID: <6270DAA1-43F1-4776-AEAA-4789DB518060@brazee.net> > On Mar 6, 2022, at 1:52 AM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > I just don't trust the the device I'm > using, because, they either fail or become obsolete. E-books should have multiple-form backups, with conversions to different formats to avoid this problem. From howard at brazee.net Sun Mar 6 13:39:33 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 06:39:33 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FBF3433-8BD8-42CC-B1C4-6F627EDD36EA@brazee.net> > On Mar 6, 2022, at 5:46 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Gwynne: I don't trust ebooks, I'm always afraid they'll vanish - or, more > likely, that I'll do something stupid and lose access to them. I always worry > when I change to a new laptop. And I never wanted to give up on treebooks > (I still have plenty!) But a few years of taking people to doctors and > medical treatment, and spending time in waiting rooms and hospitals, > changed my mind. It's so handy to be able to grab my phone and dial up a > book, and escape. I don?t need most of my books in both formats. But books that I re-read and books that I want to discuss are different. They are worth buying twice. My ebooks are stored in different formats on Calibre, backed up to my backup, copied to my wife?s computer, backed up on her backup, and stored on my phone and pad. My phone and pad are backed up on the cloud. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Mar 6 14:30:31 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 14:30:31 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 14 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a chapter of sheer frustration. We FEEL the same way Miles does, we want things to happen, and it's all about waiting, and being told no, and having no power. Miles's seizures seemed so terrible - but Simon's aren't stopping - yes, there is something worse than the problems that Miles has. And, again.... all those red flags. Hints. Odd ways of handling things that turn out to be more than natural hesitation. Oh, and I love the way Duv, the most straight-as-a-dye officer, goes to Miles without hesitation. From lbujold at myinfmail.com Sun Mar 6 15:32:18 2022 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 09:32:18 -0600 Subject: [LMB] evanescent E, was Memory Ch 11 Message-ID: <1969f559-0c79-bedc-e32f-b405614407da@myinfmail.com> [LMB] Memory Ch 11 Raymond Collins rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 08:52:40 GMT 2022 RC:? I guess I'm idiosyncratic about technology. I just don't trust the the device I'm using, because, they either fail or become obsolete. LMB:? Increasingly, when this subject comes up, I'm reminded of the fable about the two men outrunning the lion.? (Of which the punchline goes, "I don't have to outrun the lion.? I just have to outrun you!")? My media doesn't have to live forever, it just has to outlive me. Ta, L. From howard at brazee.net Sun Mar 6 15:44:29 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 08:44:29 -0700 Subject: [LMB] evanescent E, was Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: <1969f559-0c79-bedc-e32f-b405614407da@myinfmail.com> References: <1969f559-0c79-bedc-e32f-b405614407da@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: What she said! > On Mar 6, 2022, at 8:32 AM, Lois Bujold wrote: > > LMB: Increasingly, when this subject comes up, I'm reminded of the fable about the two men outrunning the lion. (Of which the punchline goes, "I don't have to outrun the lion. I just have to outrun you!") My media doesn't have to live forever, it just has to outlive me. From lmblist at mikebomb.com Sun Mar 6 17:23:34 2022 From: lmblist at mikebomb.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 12:23:34 -0500 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: <17f592a83c1.103b6396f381528.8130182331081708448@zoho.com> References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> <17f592a83c1.103b6396f381528.8130182331081708448@zoho.com> Message-ID: <6a344edb-971c-5f5b-36ad-2fbf13d5e693@mikebomb.com> On 3/5/2022 3:20 AM, Beatrice Otter via Lois-Bujold wrote: > In any case, the appropriate term for the beliefs of most of the Hebrew Bible is *not* > monotheism, but rather henotheism. Henotheism is the religious system where one > acknowledges that many other gods exist, but you only *worship* your *own* god or > goddess. Slight quibble: The Jewish and Hebrew Bible point of view is that we acknowledge that other peoples believe other gods exist, but we don't believe they are real. At Sinai, God told us he is and always has been the only god, creator of the universe. All others are false gods. Many times throughout their history, many Jews have worshipped false gods such as Baal and Asherah (Astarte), but they were sinning by doing so, and that didn't make them real. See for example 1 Kings 18:21, where at Mt Carmel, Elijah challenges the assembled Jews to pick between God and Baal, "Until when will you hop between two ideas? If the Lord is God, go after Him, but if the Baal, go after him." The idea is that only one is really god; the other is false. We don't actually acknowledge the existence of other gods. Does that bring us back to monotheism? -- Michael From lbujold at myinfmail.com Sun Mar 6 18:47:41 2022 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 12:47:41 -0600 Subject: [LMB] new e-cover for The Spirit Ring Message-ID: <2554afab-0757-dd54-f09b-712f97ac4f60@myinfmail.com> ...may be seen here: https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/22305940-new-e-cover-for-the-spirit-ring Ta, L. From becca7108 at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 18:48:41 2022 From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 13:48:41 -0500 Subject: [LMB] new e-cover for The Spirit Ring In-Reply-To: <2554afab-0757-dd54-f09b-712f97ac4f60@myinfmail.com> References: <2554afab-0757-dd54-f09b-712f97ac4f60@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: Very pretty! On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 1:47 PM Lois Bujold wrote: > > ...may be seen here: > > https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/22305940-new-e-cover-for-the-spirit-ring > > Ta, L. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to becca7108 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From howard at brazee.net Sun Mar 6 18:54:53 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 11:54:53 -0700 Subject: [LMB] new e-cover for The Spirit Ring In-Reply-To: <2554afab-0757-dd54-f09b-712f97ac4f60@myinfmail.com> References: <2554afab-0757-dd54-f09b-712f97ac4f60@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: <721CEACE-FF9A-482A-ACEC-6ADB610BA380@brazee.net> > On Mar 6, 2022, at 11:47 AM, Lois Bujold wrote: > > ...may be seen here: > > https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/22305940-new-e-cover-for-the-spirit-ring > > Ta, L. Interesting how book covers need to come up with clothing styles that are attractive & popular in our history. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 23:49:22 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 17:49:22 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: <6270DAA1-43F1-4776-AEAA-4789DB518060@brazee.net> References: <9A6527FE-E3A4-4B99-9614-15E75A610159@brazee.net> <6270DAA1-43F1-4776-AEAA-4789DB518060@brazee.net> Message-ID: I agree. On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 7:21 AM Howard Brazee wrote: > > > > On Mar 6, 2022, at 1:52 AM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > > > I just don't trust the the device I'm > > using, because, they either fail or become obsolete. > > E-books should have multiple-form backups, with conversions to different > formats to avoid this problem. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 23:59:10 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 17:59:10 -0600 Subject: [LMB] evanescent E, was Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: <1969f559-0c79-bedc-e32f-b405614407da@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: Indeed. May your books be read by many generations into the future. On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 9:44 AM Howard Brazee wrote: > What she said! > > > On Mar 6, 2022, at 8:32 AM, Lois Bujold wrote: > > > > LMB: Increasingly, when this subject comes up, I'm reminded of the > fable about the two men outrunning the lion. (Of which the punchline goes, > "I don't have to outrun the lion. I just have to outrun you!") My media > doesn't have to live forever, it just has to outlive me. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From beatrice_otter at zoho.com Mon Mar 7 00:00:48 2022 From: beatrice_otter at zoho.com (Beatrice Otter) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2022 16:00:48 -0800 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: <6a344edb-971c-5f5b-36ad-2fbf13d5e693@mikebomb.com> References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> <17f592a83c1.103b6396f381528.8130182331081708448@zoho.com> <6a344edb-971c-5f5b-36ad-2fbf13d5e693@mikebomb.com> Message-ID: <17f61adb556.c2fecc9e401492.702360901108510344@zoho.com> ---- On Sun, 06 Mar 2022 09:23:34 -0800 Michael Bauminger wrote ---- On 3/5/2022 3:20 AM, Beatrice Otter via Lois-Bujold wrote: > In any case, the appropriate term for the beliefs of most of the Hebrew Bible is *not* > monotheism, but rather henotheism. Henotheism is the religious system where one > acknowledges that many other gods exist, but you only *worship* your *own* god or > goddess. Slight quibble: The Jewish and Hebrew Bible point of view is that we acknowledge that other peoples believe other gods exist, but we don't believe they are real. At Sinai, God told us he is and always has been the only god, creator of the universe. All others are false gods. Many times throughout their history, many Jews have worshipped false gods such as Baal and Asherah (Astarte), but they were sinning by doing so, and that didn't make them real. See for example 1 Kings 18:21, where at Mt Carmel, Elijah challenges the assembled Jews to pick between God and Baal, "Until when will you hop between two ideas? If the Lord is God, go after Him, but if the Baal, go after him." The idea is that only one is really god; the other is false. We don't actually acknowledge the existence of other gods. Does that bring us back to monotheism? Beatrice Otter: Strict monotheism is the position of the later-composed books of the Bible (such as Isaiah--"I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God", Isaiah 45:5) and the position of Jewish thought and interpretation from then to today. However as most scholars (both Jewish and Christian) agree, many of the earlier-composed books assume that other gods do, in fact, exist, they are simply not to be worshiped and are not as powerful as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. See, for example, Exodus 12:12, when God announces he will execute judgments on the Egyptian gods, and then later you have Exodus 15:11 where Moses and the Israelites sing "Who is like you, O Lord, among the gods? Who is like you, majestic in holiness, awesome in glorious deeds, doing wonders?" There are many such references in the Psalms: ?There is none like you among the gods, O Lord? (86:8); ?For great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; he is to be revered above all gods? (96:4); ?Our Lord is above all gods? (135:5); ?Ascribe to the LORD, [you] gods, ascribe to the LORD glory and strength? (29:1); ?He is exalted above all gods? (97:7); ?For the LORD is a great god, and a great king above all gods? (95:3). The passage you cited from 1 Kings *can* be interpreted as saying that "no gods besides the LORD exist," but it can *also* be interpreted as saying "other gods may exist, but the LORD is more powerful and can defeat all the others." Kings doesn't really care about whether or not other gods exist; on the other hand, it cares a great deal that we know that the LORD is the greatest power in the universe and the *only* god any Jewish person should worship. Exactly when and how the transition from henotheism to monotheism happened is hard to determine because the books of Hebrew scripture as we have them today were edited into their current form during and after the Babylonian Exile. Which may be why there is inconsistency within some books and not just between earlier books and later ones. For example, Isaiah 45:5 is one of the most uncompromisingly monotheistic statements in the entire Bible; however Isaiah 14 talks about other divine beings including "the shining one" who tried to place himself above God. The book of Isaiah is probably actually a compilation of the words of at least two (and possibly three) prophets, edited together; Isaiah ben Amoz is the only one who is named, and he wrote before the Exile (starting his prophetic work in 742 BCE when King Uzziah died), but chapters 40-55 seem to take place during the exile and chapters 56-66 seem to take place after the Exile (and the Exile ended in 539 BCE). If it's one person, that would require a lifespan of at least 230 years, which one would expect the Bible to note. (Also, Ezra-Nehemiah, which is the chronicle of the return from the Exile and the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the temple, do not mention Isaiah anywhere, and if there was a prominent pre-Exilic prophet still alive one would expect them to mention it.) A common assumption is that Isaiah ben Amoz wrote Isaiah 1-39, the pre-exilic section, and then his disciples continued his prophetic tradition throughout and after the Exile, attributing their words to him as a matter of respect (as was common practice in the Ancient Near East). If this is true, then it explains why the earlier passage assumes that other divine beings exist (henotheism) and the later one states absolutely that there is no god except the LORD (monotheism). tl;dr: Jews from about the 5th century BCE to today are extremely monotheistic, and are more monotheistic than Christians are (because the trinity does muddle the waters a bit, no matter how much we claim it doesn't). The ancient Hebrew people pre-exile, however, seem to have been mostly henotheists. At the very least, they were comfortable with references to other gods in their holy stories and psalms as long as it was clearly maintained that the LORD was superior to and stronger than all the rest and no Hebrew person worshiped any god but the LORD. Beatrice Otter From saffronrose at me.com Mon Mar 7 02:58:12 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 18:58:12 -0800 Subject: [LMB] evanescent E, was Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 6, 2022, at 3:59 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > ?Indeed. May your books be read by many generations into the future. > >> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 9:44 AM Howard Brazee wrote: >> >> What she said! >> >>>> On Mar 6, 2022, at 8:32 AM, Lois Bujold wrote: >>> >>> LMB: Increasingly, when this subject comes up, I'm reminded of the >> fable about the two men outrunning the lion. (Of which the punchline goes, >> "I don't have to outrun the lion. I just have to outrun you!") My media >> doesn't have to live forever, it just has to outlive me. Hear, hear! And so say all of us! A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From cjbotteron at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 02:59:14 2022 From: cjbotteron at gmail.com (Carol Botteron) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 21:59:14 -0500 Subject: [LMB] evanescent E, was Memory Ch 11 Message-ID: > From: Lois Bujold > My media doesn't have to live forever, it just has to outlive me. Genealogists have discussions about how to preserve information in a longer timeframe. Someone finding a shiny disk a century or two from now might not realize that it contains information, and if they did, they might not have a way to read it. People use a variety of media, but a recommended safe backup is printing the files on acid-free paper and storing them where they will be safe from fire and water. From saffronrose at me.com Mon Mar 7 03:09:59 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:09:59 -0800 Subject: [LMB] new e-cover for The Spirit Ring In-Reply-To: <2554afab-0757-dd54-f09b-712f97ac4f60@myinfmail.com> References: <2554afab-0757-dd54-f09b-712f97ac4f60@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: <4D3D897B-79EF-4234-865B-F206C516A3C6@me.com> On Mar 6, 2022, at 10:47 AM, Lois Bujold wrote: > > ?...may be seen here: > > https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/22305940-new-e-cover-for-the-spirit-ring I would love a print of that cover! Do you think Ron Miller does that sort of thing? His work for you just gets better and better. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Mon Mar 7 05:47:45 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 21:47:45 -0800 Subject: [LMB] (Not quite OT) Theology: was, nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: <6a344edb-971c-5f5b-36ad-2fbf13d5e693@mikebomb.com> References: <6a344edb-971c-5f5b-36ad-2fbf13d5e693@mikebomb.com> Message-ID: <8D68A07B-A26C-48AC-8D46-5FB44A2794B9@me.com> On Mar 6, 2022, at 9:23 AM, Michael Bauminger wrote: > > ?On 3/5/2022 3:20 AM, Beatrice Otter wrote: > > At Sinai, God told us he is and always has been the only god, creator of the universe. All others are false gods. Many times throughout their history, many Jews have worshipped false gods such as Baal and Asherah (Astarte), but they were sinning by doing so, and that didn't make them real. All this about ?no other gods before me? makes me wonder: If the Lord-thy-God-Who-Created-the-World is such an insecure deity (my interpretation)?but at the same time omnipotent?why?d YHWH go and create them? To test his Chosen People? To people you allegedly love, you do this? Aaaaaannnnnd whose people were they, those unrelated to Eve, with whom her children mated? Can anyone remind me of how the Quadrenes see the Dratsab? Heresy, of course, but how do they *refer* to said White God? A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From maireg83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 08:17:09 2022 From: maireg83 at gmail.com (Sue Nicholson) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 21:17:09 +1300 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > wrote: > (I would have thought they'd have hangover cures by then; what have their > scientists been doing for the last few centuries.) > Reminds me of Pam Ayres: ... Medicinal discovery, It moves in mighty leaps. It leapt straight past the common cold, And gave it us for keeps ... SueN From lmb at matija.com Mon Mar 7 08:31:34 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:31:34 +0000 Subject: [LMB] evanescent E, was Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: <1969f559-0c79-bedc-e32f-b405614407da@myinfmail.com> References: <1969f559-0c79-bedc-e32f-b405614407da@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: <0d09ef09-93d1-9eed-2631-7eaf7ead4235@matija.com> On 06/03/2022 15:32, Lois Bujold wrote: > > LMB:? Increasingly, when this subject comes up, I'm reminded of the > fable about the two men outrunning the lion.? (Of which the punchline > goes, "I don't have to outrun the lion.? I just have to outrun you!")? > My media doesn't have to live forever, it just has to outlive me. > Taking the "it just has to outlive me" notion to the extreme, Terry Pratchett arranged to have his hard drive destroyed after his death (with a steam roller, IIRC), to prevent anyone digging through it for story ideas in order to cash out on his name. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Mar 7 09:17:12 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 09:17:12 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: <9A6527FE-E3A4-4B99-9614-15E75A610159@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 02:52:40 -0600, Raymond Collins wrote: >Well, you have a point there. I should back up my dead tree books with >ebooks. And I should since Lois Mcmaster Bujold works come out in ebook >format first. But I have this problem of reading fiction on a tablet. I can >read the news, depressing as all hell, I can read scientific and historical >papers and treatise on tablets. But, when comes to fiction or novels, I >worry i might lose the story, or my device might crash. Or etc. Etc. So I'm >comfortable reading paper books with no off switches or batteries. I guess >I'm idiosyncratic about technology. I just don't trust the the device I'm >using, because, they either fail or become obsolete. 1. Use a proper eReader, a much better experience than reading on a tablet. 2. Back up onto a PC etc using Calibre. 3. If you use the Kindle ecosystem, you can't lose books, because they're stored in your account and can be re-downloaded, up to six current devices. Other systems are available. -- There are three deaths. The first is when the body ceases to function. The second is when the body is consigned to the grave. The third is that moment, sometime in the future, when your name is spoken for the last time. - David Eagleman From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Mar 7 09:17:59 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 09:17:59 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 12:46:21 +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: > >Mind you, treebooks are still safer for reading in a bubble bath. My Kindle Oasis is waterproof; books are not. -- There are three deaths. The first is when the body ceases to function. The second is when the body is consigned to the grave. The third is that moment, sometime in the future, when your name is spoken for the last time. - David Eagleman From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Mar 7 09:20:40 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 09:20:40 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 21:17:09 +1300, Sue Nicholson wrote: >> wrote: >> (I would have thought they'd have hangover cures by then; what have their >> scientists been doing for the last few centuries.) >> > > >Reminds me of Pam Ayres: >... Medicinal discovery, >It moves in mighty leaps. >It leapt straight past the common cold, >And gave it us for keeps ... The problem with "The Common Cold" is that there is no such thing: it's an umbrella term for a whole gamut of viruses, not all of which are even the same genus. Some are coronaviruses, some adenoviruses, the majority are rhinoviruses - and they are very adept at mutation. -- I like butterflies, I just feel sorry for caterpillars with a fear of flying and no interest in fashion. @SixthFormPoet From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Mar 7 09:23:00 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 09:23:00 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 13 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2njb2h9b01nmmvkscm4nbu1f0o3d008bk1@4ax.com> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 15:49:09 +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: >Side note: How did Miles get away with naming them the Dendarii, >and nobody wondered about that? Especially with a suspiciously >short admiral. It might just be too obscure a reference for most observers. -- I like butterflies, I just feel sorry for caterpillars with a fear of flying and no interest in fashion. @SixthFormPoet From beatrice_otter at zoho.com Mon Mar 7 10:08:41 2022 From: beatrice_otter at zoho.com (Beatrice Otter) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 02:08:41 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 13 In-Reply-To: <2njb2h9b01nmmvkscm4nbu1f0o3d008bk1@4ax.com> References: <2njb2h9b01nmmvkscm4nbu1f0o3d008bk1@4ax.com> Message-ID: <17f63da3c43.fd50e7a4407822.6133048099633768721@zoho.com> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 15:49:09 +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: >Side note: How did Miles get away with naming them the Dendarii, >and nobody wondered about that? Especially with a suspiciously >short admiral. ---- On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 01:23:00 -0800 Marc Wilson wrote ---- It might just be too obscure a reference for most observers. Beatrice Otter: Consider what an analogy from the modern world would be like. There is a guy with a private security company based out of California. The company is named after a geographic feature from one of the poorer/more obscure regions of Russia. The guy looks like the son of one of Putin's top guys. Would you notice? I wouldn't! I can't recognize any Russian officials besides Putin, and I certainly couldn't recognize their children. And I don't know much about Russian geography. A Russian might get it right away, or a Ukrainian, or someone from one of the former Soviet Socialist Republics. But probably not most other people. And that's when we're all on the same planet. Multiply that by the number of inhabited planets in the Nexus ... Beatrice Otter From proto at panix.com Mon Mar 7 11:19:21 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 06:19:21 -0500 Subject: [LMB] evanescent E, was Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 6, 2022, at 9:59 PM, Carol Botteron wrote: > > Genealogists have discussions about how to preserve information in a longer > timeframe. Someone finding a shiny disk a century or two from now might > not realize that it contains information, and if they did, they might not > have a way to read it. People use a variety of media, but a recommended > safe backup is printing the files on acid-free paper and storing them where > they will be safe from fire and water. > -- Carved into stone or baked clay tablets have been proved to survive thousands of years. Paper not so much. Perhaps we could write modern languages in cuneiform? I will leave to the reader the problems of writing Chinese in cuneiform. ? It?s better to be approximately correct than completely wrong. From proto at panix.com Mon Mar 7 11:31:47 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 06:31:47 -0500 Subject: [LMB] (Not quite OT) Theology: was, nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: <8D68A07B-A26C-48AC-8D46-5FB44A2794B9@me.com> References: <6a344edb-971c-5f5b-36ad-2fbf13d5e693@mikebomb.com> <8D68A07B-A26C-48AC-8D46-5FB44A2794B9@me.com> Message-ID: <3AAA2163-4F70-4253-ADED-1AFE0A209EDA@panix.com> > On Mar 7, 2022, at 12:47 AM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Can anyone remind me of how the Quadrenes see the Dratsab? Heresy, of course, but how do they *refer* to said White God? Basically as an anti-deity and as such similar to Satan a powerful deity, but you are not to worship or cut a deal with him. ? In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.?= --tweet by British columnist, Dan Hodges, June 15, 2015? From proto at panix.com Mon Mar 7 11:43:15 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 06:43:15 -0500 Subject: [LMB] evanescent E, was Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: <0d09ef09-93d1-9eed-2631-7eaf7ead4235@matija.com> References: <1969f559-0c79-bedc-e32f-b405614407da@myinfmail.com> <0d09ef09-93d1-9eed-2631-7eaf7ead4235@matija.com> Message-ID: <92AEC3AA-1110-4D04-92F8-4F56AE7659EC@panix.com> > On Mar 7, 2022, at 3:31 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Taking the "it just has to outlive me" notion to the extreme, Terry Pratchett arranged to have his hard drive destroyed after his death (with a steam roller, IIRC), to prevent anyone digging through it for story ideas in order to cash out on his name. > -- As if the plots or ideas are the valuable things. The copycats might degrade his legacy is I think the reason he did this. ? In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over." --tweet by British columnist, Dan Hodges, June 15, 2015? From proto at panix.com Mon Mar 7 12:08:09 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 07:08:09 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 13 In-Reply-To: <2njb2h9b01nmmvkscm4nbu1f0o3d008bk1@4ax.com> References: <2njb2h9b01nmmvkscm4nbu1f0o3d008bk1@4ax.com> Message-ID: <88E05EFA-5624-4B67-9C6A-950410E4A7A2@panix.com> > On Mar 7, 2022, at 4:23 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > >> Side note: How did Miles get away with naming them the Dendarii, >> and nobody wondered about that? Especially with a suspiciously >> short admiral. > > It might just be too obscure a reference for most observers. > ? Any competent state level security force should have been able to use that to come up with the answer if at all interested, and using the height of the leader should have had a very good idea. The Centagadans would have an interest and their record of missions on behalf of Barrayar would attract attention. Of course when these stories were written AI was a joke compared to today. ? "We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." - Attributed to Plato From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Mar 7 12:59:59 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 12:59:59 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyyyyyy! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Today we celebrate the birthday of Jane Starr. Jane, we send you all our biggest and best birthday wishes for a wonderful day. And to help you celebrate, you'll be spending the day with that famous all-girl combat team, the Koudelkas! These women aren't just amazing at unarmed combat; they're excellent shoppers too - they know all the best and most interesting stores in Vorbarr Sultana. Plus the best cafes, too. And in the evening you'll wear one of your new dresses to a reception at the Residence, where you'll dance with handsome and dashing young officers, meet the Emperor, and have a chat with Drou - who knows all the good gossip. ? Have a wonderful day, Jane! From howard at brazee.net Mon Mar 7 14:17:28 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 07:17:28 -0700 Subject: [LMB] (Not quite OT) Theology: was, nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: <8D68A07B-A26C-48AC-8D46-5FB44A2794B9@me.com> References: <6a344edb-971c-5f5b-36ad-2fbf13d5e693@mikebomb.com> <8D68A07B-A26C-48AC-8D46-5FB44A2794B9@me.com> Message-ID: <9DB45CCF-3ECF-4A0B-86BB-DA4DBAA7B0F4@brazee.net> > On Mar 6, 2022, at 10:47 PM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote: Intrepretations of scripture have changed considerably over time, with wars fought by people claiming to know the right way. > > All this about ?no other gods before me? makes me wonder: If the Lord-thy-God-Who-Created-the-World is such an insecure deity (my interpretation)?but at the same time omnipotent?why?d YHWH go and create them? To test his Chosen People? To people you allegedly love, you do this? Early religions didn?t try to be applicable to the whole world. Gods were for their chosen people. Those other people had their own gods, and we?ll see whose gods were more powerful. Even in the last millennium, Europe was called Christendom. > > Aaaaaannnnnd whose people were they, those unrelated to Eve, with whom her children mated? The Old Testament was the story of its Chosen People. I would assume the people in the Land of Nod evolved. > > Can anyone remind me of how the Quadrenes see the Dratsab? Heresy, of course, but how do they *refer* to said White God? If our world is an example, people could have merged the beliefs of various gods (and angels???). We are shown 5 gods. The Quadrenes see 4 gods and one more. But maybe gods aren?t as well defined across the whole world as what we see. Maybe they have different aspects to different believers on the other side of the world. Is light a particle or a wave? Are the aspects and even the number of gods that are so obvious in one culture what every culture in the world see? (The books don?t show us the whole world). Lois doesn?t address that, so it?s just speculation. But maybe the reason the Quadrenes see something different is because the gods have a very real different aspect that they see. From kawyle at att.net Mon Mar 7 14:25:55 2022 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 14:25:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: <9A6527FE-E3A4-4B99-9614-15E75A610159@brazee.net> Message-ID: <999826727.482102.1646663155168@mail.yahoo.com> You can't lose them by mischance, but they can be taken from you, as in the infamous case of the Moby Dick?copyright-or-licensing dispute (I don't recall the details) where people's digital copies were deleted, taking notes and highlights (and one master's thesis, I believe) with them. (And here's a claim of a similar incident I don't recall, about 1984?and Animal Farm:?https://booksurvival.blogspot.com/2009/07/see-anti-kindle-rants-i-did-while-ago.html) Karen A. Wyle On Monday, March 7, 2022, 04:17:17 AM EST, Marc Wilson wrote: On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 02:52:40 -0600, Raymond Collins wrote: 3. If you use the Kindle ecosystem, you can't lose books, because they're stored in your account and can be re-downloaded, up to six current devices.? Other systems are available. From howard at brazee.net Mon Mar 7 14:29:53 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 07:29:53 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70188A01-2067-45F0-B85F-A9DF7DB09D01@brazee.net> > On Mar 7, 2022, at 2:17 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > >> Mind you, treebooks are still safer for reading in a bubble bath. > > My Kindle Oasis is waterproof; books are not. There are people I won?t lend books to, as I even when they don?t drop them in the tub, I can tell that the books have been read in the tub. From howard at brazee.net Mon Mar 7 14:30:33 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 07:30:33 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 7, 2022, at 2:20 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > The problem with "The Common Cold" is that there is no such thing: it's > an umbrella term for a whole gamut of viruses, not all of which are even > the same genus. Same issue with finding the ?cure for cancer?. From howard at brazee.net Mon Mar 7 14:37:25 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 07:37:25 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: <999826727.482102.1646663155168@mail.yahoo.com> References: <9A6527FE-E3A4-4B99-9614-15E75A610159@brazee.net> <999826727.482102.1646663155168@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <250F9946-A275-4118-B1D7-D2F0C0407397@brazee.net> > On Mar 7, 2022, at 7:25 AM, Karen A. Wyle wrote: > > You can't lose them by mischance, but they can be taken from you, as in the infamous case of the Moby Dick copyright-or-licensing dispute (I don't recall the details) where people's digital copies were deleted, taking notes and highlights (and one master's thesis, I believe) with them. (And here's a claim of a similar incident I don't recall, about 1984 and Animal Farm:https://booksurvival.blogspot.com/2009/07/see-anti-kindle-rants-i-did-while-ago.html ) But they can?t take away the copy I have on Calibre, then on my other ebook readers. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Mar 7 15:05:33 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:05:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 13 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: WalterStuartBushell >> Side note: How did Miles get away with naming them the Dendarii, >> and nobody wondered about that? Especially with a suspiciously >> short admiral. Any competent state level security force should have been able to use that to come up with the answer if at all interested, and using the height of the leader should have had a very good idea. The Centagadans would have an interest and their record of missions on behalf of Barrayar would attract attention. Gwynne: To be fair, Miles did deal with it - a bit. He put around the rumour that Naismith was a clone of Lord Vorkosigan, who had escaped from the evil Betans/Komarrans/Jacksonians/Cetagandans who created him and used the name deliberately as a slap at his irritating progenitor (Brother? Father? Clone thingy.) He used it when Mark showed up, to confuse the Cetas. That story held up for quite a while, and even when it was a bit threadbare nobody did anything official about it: the Cetas owed Miles a favour or two, the Betans probably thought it was a great idea for some Betan reason, the Jacksonians couldn't make a profit out of it so it didn't matter, and the Komarrans were at least technically on the same side. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Mar 7 15:36:03 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:36:03 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This chapter starts slowly, but builds up to being one of my favourites. There's no news, and no news, for a week. Gregor is holding back, to give Haroche a chance to settle in to the job. The doctors have been busy identifying what it isn't. And then Haroche makes a truly epic mistake, which sets the whole process in motion that ends with solving the crime. A terrible, terrible error. He's rude to Lady Alys. He waves her away as a useless, irritating frill who doesn't belong in the game with the big boys. Alys is gloriously furious. She rages against the three young louts who didn't tell her what had happened while she was away - louts! Ivan, Miles and Gregor! Ohhh yes, she's in a serious snit. Komarr went... not that great. She's going to set Cordelia on them - that'll fix it, one way or another. Miles points out that Cordelia isn't diplomatic, and Alys gives a marvellous answer: "No, but she's absolutely honest. And she has this peculiar trick of making the most outlandish things seem perfectly sensible, at least for the duration of the time she's talking to you. People end up agreeing with her, and then spending the next month wondering how it happened..." And following that trend, she sets Miles onto ImpSec. She wants things DONE. Another good Alys line (I like her here better than anywhere else): Cordelia is so good at cutting through masculinist drivel (mainly by cutting through masculine throats....) Alys is prepared to go in all guns blazing on this: No help for Illyan, no Imperial wedding. And Haroche thought she had no power. Dill. Next morning, another visitor, and more of Martin's gloriously inept butlering. Vorberg has come to tell Miles that he's a miserable sod for ignoring Simon. Vorberg's on night duty with Simon (which does NOT qualify as 'light duties') and Simon's been asking for Miles. Vorberg has told Haroche. And Miles hasn't turned up because he's .... sulking and nasty? No. Because he has no idea. And neither does Gregor, because he'd pass it on to Miles. Five nights in a row - this is just cruel. Vorberg's heard enough of Simon's ramblings to know that Miles was never a bloody courier. And let's not ask about the Dendarii. But Vorberg believes in Vor ideals, and Miles has a responsiblity towards Simon. Be a good Vor, Miles. Miles goes to see Simon. And ends up being hustled out of the building by armed guards. After being threatened with arrest, stun-guns and whatever else Haroche can get away with. And if he tries to get back in, the gate guards are to use stunners. Miles sits and thinks for a while. Simmering. Again, Haroche has made a big mistake - when he read Miles's files he must have focussed on the spoilt-nepotistic-lying-Vor side, and not noticed the tactically-brilliant-and-generally-unstoppable bits. Miles has worked so hard to not be seen as Piotr's grandson, Aral's son, Gregor's brother. And it's worked, rather too well; he's almost extinguished Lord Vorkosigan. Naismith was obsessed with winning, and being seen to have won. Vorkosigan couldn't surrender. It's not the same thing. Dendarii hillmen grimly survived through everything, and were the core of resistance against the Cetagandans. No wonder Miles likes Maple Mead; there's more hillman in him than he realised. Naismith could take and take and hollow Vorkosigan out, taking every part of his life and energy. But at rock bottom, he couldn't go any further. Bedrock. Vorkosigan just wouldn't surrender. Miles finally knows why he hasn't seen the doctors yet. Turns out Naismith isn't nearly as wily as Vorkosigan. It's time to be Vorkosigan again. So Miles goes home, scrubs away the shame of past events, and puts on his best House uniform. And every damn medal he has. Earlier we saw Vorberg getting his medal, his first, and so proud of it. Miles has a drawerful. And not just Barrayaran: they include Vervani, Marilacan and Cetagandan. I'm willing to bet that NOBODY in the Nexus has earned an array of medals like that. He adds his grandfather's seal dagger. He just drips significance. And then he goes to the Residence. Lord Vorkosigan is going in to battle. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Mar 7 15:56:31 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:56:31 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's so many good moments in this chapter! Important ones, too. Miles in his medals is the climax of the chapter, but a pivotal moment in the book is when Haroche tells Alys to go away and do girl things and stop bothering the important men. Vorberg's news adds the final push, and Miles starts gathering momentum again. For Alys to threaten the Imperial wedding is HUGE. She is really not a happy camper here, and that's a big clue to later events, as well. Miles carried out of ImpSec, basically tossed through the gate and told not to come back... he's had a lifetime of humiliations on Barrayar, but this one really stings. ImpSec was a home, a place where he did well - right up to the last moments. But they disregarded him.... He'd been disregarding Vorkosigan for a decade, but suddenly it really stings that other people do too. And he gets some insight: Naismith is all about winning and performing for the audience. All fireworks and flash. Vorkosigan is dogged endurance and determination. Vorkosigan just won't stop - and Vorkosigan, sneaky hillman that he is, has been stopping him from going to find a proper cure. Naismith can take everything, but Vorkosigan just won't give up (and that really harks back to Piotr, and his grim and vicious resistance against the Cetagandans. He just wouldn't stop.) And then that marvellous vision of Miles in his House uniform with ALL his medals - Barrayaran and others. And he's finally found a good use for those medals, they do all the talking for him. They show just how much he's suffered, and achieved. 'Yes, I made one mistake, but look at all the rest!' Miles has found a new form of Forward Momentum. From domelouann at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 16:15:43 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 10:15:43 -0600 Subject: [LMB] A five gods dream In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 7:05 AM Stewart Dean wrote: > dreams... > > Night before last, the aristocracy (not the priesthood) representing the > Five Gods had all been taken off (plague, insurrection, dunno) and I am > some sort of Adjudicator told off to seek out whatever distant heirs there > might be to step into their shoes. Not much enthusiasm on the part of me or > them. For whatever reason, they are located, embody or whatever the 4 > cardinal points of the compass, N, S, E, W. There were lesser figures for > SSW, W by N, etc. > > Fine. Last night, I got around to the Bastard...who got the four > intermediate compass points, SE,SW,NW,NE as they are not cardinal points > but equidistant between, thus being neither and falling into His grab bag. > Your unconscious mind makes a good case. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Mar 7 16:34:36 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 16:34:36 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00dc2h5budmrpkndsgc81mvvmecckoag71@4ax.com> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 07:30:33 -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: > > >> On Mar 7, 2022, at 2:20 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: >> >> The problem with "The Common Cold" is that there is no such thing: it's >> an umbrella term for a whole gamut of viruses, not all of which are even >> the same genus. > >Same issue with finding the ?cure for cancer?. It's one of my rules of thumb; anything that says it cures "cancer" is nonsense. -- Honestly, what planet do these people live on? Any why isn't it farther away? - Louise Rennison From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 16:58:22 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 10:58:22 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd say that this is the first time that Haroche puts his foot in it for real. He discounts Miles as a recently fired, disgraced Impsec lieutenant, and forgets all about Miles' other identity as "Lord Vorkosigan," not to mention all those medals, which constitute at least a claim to a right to be heard. And discounting Alys...this could be seen as foreshadowing the scene in *A Civil Campaign* when whatwashisface blew Alys off, not understanding how much behind-the-scenes clout she wielded. On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 9:56 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > There's so many good moments in this chapter! Important > ones, too. > > Miles in his medals is the climax of the chapter, but a pivotal > moment in the book is when Haroche tells Alys to go away > and do girl things and stop bothering the important men. > Vorberg's news adds the final push, and Miles starts gathering > momentum again. > > For Alys to threaten the Imperial wedding is HUGE. She is > really not a happy camper here, and that's a big clue to later > events, as well. > > Miles carried out of ImpSec, basically tossed through the gate > and told not to come back... he's had a lifetime of humiliations > on Barrayar, but this one really stings. ImpSec was a home, a > place where he did well - right up to the last moments. But they > disregarded him.... He'd been disregarding Vorkosigan for a > decade, but suddenly it really stings that other people do too. > And he gets some insight: Naismith is all about winning and > performing for the audience. All fireworks and flash. Vorkosigan > is dogged endurance and determination. Vorkosigan just > won't stop - and Vorkosigan, sneaky hillman that he is, has > been stopping him from going to find a proper cure. Naismith > can take everything, but Vorkosigan just won't give up (and that > really harks back to Piotr, and his grim and vicious resistance > against the Cetagandans. He just wouldn't stop.) > > And then that marvellous vision of Miles in his House uniform > with ALL his medals - Barrayaran and others. And he's finally > found a good use for those medals, they do all the talking for > him. They show just how much he's suffered, and achieved. > 'Yes, I made one mistake, but look at all the rest!' Miles has > found a new form of Forward Momentum. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 17:12:07 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:12:07 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "I'll see your 'disgraced lieutenant,' Haroche---and raise you a Vor Lord with more medals than Hermann Goering!" It's a good thing Miles doesn't know how to play poker. On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 9:36 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > This chapter starts slowly, but builds up to being one of my favourites. > > There's no news, and no news, for a week. Gregor is holding back, to > give Haroche a chance to settle in to the job. The doctors have been > busy identifying what it isn't. > > And then Haroche makes a truly epic mistake, which sets the whole > process in motion that ends with solving the crime. A terrible, > terrible error. He's rude to Lady Alys. He waves her away as a useless, > irritating frill who doesn't belong in the game with the big boys. > > Alys is gloriously furious. She rages against the three young louts > who didn't tell her what had happened while she was away - louts! > Ivan, Miles and Gregor! Ohhh yes, she's in a serious snit. > > Komarr went... not that great. She's going to set Cordelia on them - > that'll fix it, one way or another. Miles points out that Cordelia isn't > diplomatic, and Alys gives a marvellous answer: > "No, but she's absolutely honest. And she has this peculiar trick of > making the most outlandish things seem perfectly sensible, at least for the > duration of the time she's talking to you. People end up agreeing with her, > and then spending the next month wondering how it happened..." > > And following that trend, she sets Miles onto ImpSec. She wants > things DONE. > > Another good Alys line (I like her here better than anywhere else): > Cordelia is so good at cutting through masculinist drivel (mainly by > cutting through masculine throats....) > > Alys is prepared to go in all guns blazing on this: No help for Illyan, > no Imperial wedding. And Haroche thought she had no power. Dill. > > Next morning, another visitor, and more of Martin's gloriously > inept butlering. Vorberg has come to tell Miles that he's a miserable > sod for ignoring Simon. Vorberg's on night duty with Simon (which > does NOT qualify as 'light duties') and Simon's been asking for > Miles. Vorberg has told Haroche. And Miles hasn't turned up > because he's .... sulking and nasty? No. Because he has no idea. > And neither does Gregor, because he'd pass it on to Miles. Five > nights in a row - this is just cruel. > > Vorberg's heard enough of Simon's ramblings to know that Miles > was never a bloody courier. And let's not ask about the Dendarii. > But Vorberg believes in Vor ideals, and Miles has a responsiblity > towards Simon. Be a good Vor, Miles. > > Miles goes to see Simon. And ends up being hustled out of the > building by armed guards. After being threatened with arrest, > stun-guns and whatever else Haroche can get away with. And > if he tries to get back in, the gate guards are to use stunners. > > Miles sits and thinks for a while. Simmering. Again, Haroche > has made a big mistake - when he read Miles's files he must > have focussed on the spoilt-nepotistic-lying-Vor side, and > not noticed the tactically-brilliant-and-generally-unstoppable bits. > > Miles has worked so hard to not be seen as Piotr's grandson, > Aral's son, Gregor's brother. And it's worked, rather too > well; he's almost extinguished Lord Vorkosigan. > > Naismith was obsessed with winning, and being seen to have > won. Vorkosigan couldn't surrender. It's not the same thing. > Dendarii hillmen grimly survived through everything, and were > the core of resistance against the Cetagandans. No wonder > Miles likes Maple Mead; there's more hillman in him than he > realised. > > Naismith could take and take and hollow Vorkosigan out, > taking every part of his life and energy. But at rock bottom, > he couldn't go any further. Bedrock. Vorkosigan just wouldn't > surrender. > > Miles finally knows why he hasn't seen the doctors yet. > Turns out Naismith isn't nearly as wily as Vorkosigan. > > It's time to be Vorkosigan again. So Miles goes home, > scrubs away the shame of past events, and puts on his > best House uniform. And every damn medal he has. Earlier > we saw Vorberg getting his medal, his first, and so proud of > it. Miles has a drawerful. And not just Barrayaran: they > include Vervani, Marilacan and Cetagandan. I'm willing to > bet that NOBODY in the Nexus has earned an array of > medals like that. He adds his grandfather's seal dagger. He > just drips significance. > > And then he goes to the Residence. Lord Vorkosigan is > going in to battle. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rgmolpus at flash.net Mon Mar 7 17:31:13 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 17:31:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1698904258.546138.1646674273804@mail.yahoo.com> This is something that bugs me. The Cetagandan order of merit was 'Earned' by Lt. Vorkosigan - not Admiral Naismith. It's in/on the public record; Gregor can't have declared it 'classified' - too many people know about it. It's not a secret - can't be. the Marilacan medal IS secret - Admiral Naismith won that - and Admiral Naismith IS NOT Lt. Vorkosigan. The Ceta medal is an open secret; and can be worn openly by it's owner. I wish Fanfic writers would remember that. On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 9:36 AM Gwynne Powell wrote:? ? > It's time to be Vorkosigan again. So Miles goes home, > scrubs away the shame of past events, and puts on his > best House uniform. And every damn medal he has. Earlier > we saw Vorberg getting his medal, his first, and so proud of > it. Miles has a drawerful. And not just Barrayaran: they > include Vervani, Marilacan and Cetagandan. I'm willing to > bet that NOBODY in the Nexus has earned an array of > medals like that. He adds his grandfather's seal dagger. He > just drips significance. > > And then he goes to the Residence. Lord Vorkosigan is > going in to battle. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 17:55:05 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 12:55:05 -0500 Subject: [LMB] evanescent E, was Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: <92AEC3AA-1110-4D04-92F8-4F56AE7659EC@panix.com> References: <1969f559-0c79-bedc-e32f-b405614407da@myinfmail.com> <0d09ef09-93d1-9eed-2631-7eaf7ead4235@matija.com> <92AEC3AA-1110-4D04-92F8-4F56AE7659EC@panix.com> Message-ID: The plots and ideas arguably weren't valuable, but the association with the Pratchett name would have been. Look at what happened to Frank Herbert. His writing became hackier, but he had a wife dying of cancer that he had to support, and the medical treatments did nothing but prolong her death. (Still probably a good thing from their perspectives, but a very expensive thing.) So he has something of an excuse. Then his son Brian arranged for more Dune books to be written. There's a famous Penny Arcade comic about that: https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/10/15 Matt "it's reasonably work-safe, but don't go visiting other comics, just to be sure" G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 17:58:54 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 12:58:54 -0500 Subject: [LMB] nice surprise mention in of all places TIME In-Reply-To: <6a344edb-971c-5f5b-36ad-2fbf13d5e693@mikebomb.com> References: <36F55C77-A5DA-4B1A-B425-5F94D8F31CF7@panix.com> <3d3985ed-93bf-fa22-538a-08bde1db5519@matija.com> <17f592a83c1.103b6396f381528.8130182331081708448@zoho.com> <6a344edb-971c-5f5b-36ad-2fbf13d5e693@mikebomb.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 12:23 PM Michael Bauminger wrote: > Slight quibble: The Jewish and Hebrew Bible point of view is The current Jewish and Hebrew Bible point of view. Jews had other positions, earlier in history. Which is part of why there are two creation stories in the Old Testament: people wrote a new one to help establish the idea that their god is the only one, but due to the reverence given to Holy Writ, didn't delete the earlier recorded myth. See for example 1 Kings 18:21, where at Mt Carmel, Elijah challenges the > assembled Jews to pick between God and Baal, "Until when will you hop > between two ideas? If the Lord is God, go after Him, but if the Baal, go > after him." The idea is that only one is really god; the other is false. > That can just as easily be interpreted from a henotheistic perspective: "Which god do you follow before all others, Yahweh or Baal?" Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 18:02:11 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 13:02:11 -0500 Subject: [LMB] new e-cover for The Spirit Ring In-Reply-To: <4D3D897B-79EF-4234-865B-F206C516A3C6@me.com> References: <2554afab-0757-dd54-f09b-712f97ac4f60@myinfmail.com> <4D3D897B-79EF-4234-865B-F206C516A3C6@me.com> Message-ID: I've actually seen a skybow like that - not near the horizon, but straight up. The painting, while lovely, doesn't quite do it justice... but I suppose that's almost inevitably true of atmospheric phenomena. Why the new cover? I thought the previous e-book cover was more than adequate. Is it a rights issue? Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 18:06:04 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 13:06:04 -0500 Subject: [LMB] evanescent E, was Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Supposedly, the only artifact of our civilizations that would survive for geological periods would be glass bottles, buried in mud which turned to stone. It may seem ridiculous at first, but glass - the right kind of glass - might be the best way to preserve data for long periods of time. A thick piece of tempered glass is both sturdy and durable. With enough redundancy, it would last epochs. Baked clay is cheap and long-lasting, but tends to be mistaken for packed clay. A lot of the early excavations of mesopotamian cities destroyed the walls they were looking for, until they realized the clay they were carting off was brick and not merely mud. Matt G. From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Mon Mar 7 18:55:55 2022 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2022 18:55:55 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 Message-ID: Haroche dismissively blowing Lady Alys off with disastrous consequences is a nice callback to all the times Barrayaran men dismissed Cordelia: Vordarian?["You can't do--"]; Piotr ["Betan frill"]; the ministers who expect her to raise Gregor ["they think I have no power"].? And now Alys, the inevitable, and inevitably elegant, juggernaut. ? Tee hee hee. ? Jerrie From howard at brazee.net Mon Mar 7 19:42:33 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 12:42:33 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 7, 2022, at 8:36 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > It's time to be Vorkosigan again. So Miles goes home, > scrubs away the shame of past events, and puts on his > best House uniform. And every damn medal he has. Earlier > we saw Vorberg getting his medal, his first, and so proud of > it. Miles has a drawerful. And not just Barrayaran: they > include Vervani, Marilacan and Cetagandan. I'm willing to > bet that NOBODY in the Nexus has earned an array of > medals like that. He adds his grandfather's seal dagger. He > just drips significance. I wonder how common it is to recognize other nations? medals. Miles was actually wearing medals, not just ribbons: "He hesitated, then arranged the gold medallion of the Cetagandan Order of Merit on its colorful ribbon, properly, around the tunic's high collar. It was cool and heavy under his hand.? I checked with my brother Jonathan, who is a retired Marine Colonel (and writes primarily military SF), he said that in the U.S. Marine Corps: Foreign ribbons are worn on a lower precedence than all US ribbons. Medals as well. For one that goes around the neck, those can be worn if approved. From proto at panix.com Mon Mar 7 19:45:14 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 14:45:14 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6271CF81-E1DE-4914-AAD1-A14DDEFF3A0B@panix.com> > On Mar 7, 2022, at 11:58 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > I'd say that this is the first time that Haroche puts his foot in it for > real. He discounts Miles as a recently fired, disgraced Impsec > lieutenant, and forgets all about Miles' other identity as "Lord > Vorkosigan," not to mention all those medals, which constitute at least a > claim to a right to be heard. And discounting Alys...this could be seen as > foreshadowing the scene in *A Civil Campaign* when whatwashisface blew Alys > off, not understanding how much behind-the-scenes clout she wielded. He can?t let Alys see Illyan, she has access to the Emperor, Count Vorbarra not to mention Gregor. ? In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over." --tweet by British columnist, Dan Hodges, June 15, 2015? From baur at chello.at Mon Mar 7 19:54:45 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 20:54:45 +0100 Subject: [LMB] evanescent E, was Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0603d518-67ab-7244-42d9-4d31042be6c3@chello.at> another civilisation indicators that will last for geological periods will be isotope changes in uranium both depleted uranium and reactor wastes will carry isotope "fingerprints" that will last for billion of years (this is how the oklo reactors were identified) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_nuclear_fission_reactor servus markus Am 07.03.2022 um 19:06 schrieb Matthew George: > Supposedly, the only artifact of our civilizations that would survive for > geological periods would be glass bottles, buried in mud which turned to > stone. > > It may seem ridiculous at first, but glass - the right kind of glass - > might be the best way to preserve data for long periods of time. A thick > piece of tempered glass is both sturdy and durable. With enough > redundancy, it would last epochs. > > Baked clay is cheap and long-lasting, but tends to be mistaken for packed > clay. A lot of the early excavations of mesopotamian cities destroyed the > walls they were looking for, until they realized the clay they were carting > off was brick and not merely mud. > > Matt G. -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 19:58:57 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 14:58:57 -0500 Subject: [LMB] evanescent E, was Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: <0603d518-67ab-7244-42d9-4d31042be6c3@chello.at> References: <0603d518-67ab-7244-42d9-4d31042be6c3@chello.at> Message-ID: That's a great point, but figuring out how to store and convey data with that method is... challenging, to say the least. Matt "modulate neutron star rotations" G. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 20:41:10 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 14:41:10 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: <70188A01-2067-45F0-B85F-A9DF7DB09D01@brazee.net> References: <70188A01-2067-45F0-B85F-A9DF7DB09D01@brazee.net> Message-ID: To wax poetically for a moment. Books are like telepathy, you are given a brief moment into the thoughts of an author. On Mon, Mar 7, 2022, 8:30 AM Howard Brazee wrote: > > > > On Mar 7, 2022, at 2:17 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > > >> Mind you, treebooks are still safer for reading in a bubble bath. > > > > My Kindle Oasis is waterproof; books are not. > > There are people I won?t lend books to, as I even when they don?t drop > them in the tub, I can tell that the books have been read in the tub. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From proto at panix.com Mon Mar 7 21:10:22 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 16:10:22 -0500 Subject: [LMB] evanescent E, was Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: <0603d518-67ab-7244-42d9-4d31042be6c3@chello.at> References: <0603d518-67ab-7244-42d9-4d31042be6c3@chello.at> Message-ID: <38136B38-A9AC-4BCD-B79A-5C000AEED930@panix.com> > On Mar 7, 2022, at 2:54 PM, markus baur via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > another civilisation indicators that will last for geological periods will be isotope changes in uranium > > both depleted uranium and reactor wastes will carry isotope "fingerprints" that will last for billion of years > > (this is how the oklo reactors were identified) > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_nuclear_fission_reactor > > servus And a geological layer of lead in sediments. Even in Roman times and, of course from automobiles up to the late 90s and probably still today in some countries. ? It is wrong, always, everywhere, and for everyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.? ?W. K. Clifford (1845?1879), ?The Ethics? My take is belief should be proportional to the evidence. From lbujold at myinfmail.com Mon Mar 7 21:56:07 2022 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:56:07 -0600 Subject: [LMB] new e-cover for The Spirit Ring now also Japanese covers Message-ID: [LMB] new e-cover for The Spirit Ring Matthew George matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 18:02:11 GMT 2022 MG:? I've actually seen a skybow like that - not near the horizon, but straight up.? The painting, while lovely, doesn't quite do it justice... but I suppose that's almost inevitably true of atmospheric phenomena. LMB:? It represents the magic, I believe.? The first draft was more obviously gold-ring-ish, but far too much yellow. MG:? Why the new cover?? I thought the previous e-book cover was more than adequate.? Is it a rights issue? LMB:? Rights are entirely mine.? But I've long wanted Fiametta to appear on the cover of her. own. book., and the recent (abandoned) discussion here on-list made me realize she wasn't being pictured accurately by some readers.? Which happens; on the Japanese edition she appears quite Japanese, although in her canonical red dress. https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/%E3%83%AD%E3%82%A4%E3%82%B9%E3%83%BB%E3%83%9E%E3%82%AF%E3%83%9E%E3%82%B9%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%BB%E3%83%93%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A7%E3%83%AB%E3%83%89/dp/4488587011/ And, Huh!? That is not the original cover art for the original Japanese printing (2001, I think) which I have on my shelf.? (It had Fiametta looking pensive, and Japanese, with the lion ring.) It's had a reissue with updated art, it seems.?? Good.? Really, it's common publishing practice. And, ooh! -- lower on that page is a pic of the second Penric volume (next to the first), of which no one has sent me an author's copy yet.? The things one learns by surfing around. Amazon.jp can give one a tour of many of my other Japanese covers, which tend to be good art. Ta, L. From tzbarasc at lasierra.edu Mon Mar 7 22:19:40 2022 From: tzbarasc at lasierra.edu (Tony Zbaraschuk) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 16:19:40 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 12:56 PM wrote: > Haroche dismissively blowing Lady Alys off with disastrous consequences is > a nice callback to all the times Barrayaran men dismissed Cordelia: > Vordarian ["You can't do--"]; Piotr ["Betan frill"]; the ministers who > expect her to raise Gregor ["they think I have no power"]. And now Alys, > the inevitable, and inevitably elegant, juggernaut. > And it's also showing Haroche's dangerous blindspot -- he only looks at public matters, at oaths, as things of importance. Given how much of Vor society runs on nepotism and connections, this is a real problem for someone who aspires to be head of ImpSec. I wonder if Simon had spotted the problem and that was why he was fast-tracking Miles over Haroche? (Then again, if he had noticed, wouldn't he have drawn it to Haroche's attention as something that needed correcting?) Tony Z -- Tony Zbaraschuk Bookworm, talker, learner Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" From pouncer at aol.com Mon Mar 7 22:33:44 2022 From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 16:33:44 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Olympic Medals? References: <73911619-ab53-1899-20db-14bc1aefaf01.ref@aol.com> Message-ID: <73911619-ab53-1899-20db-14bc1aefaf01@aol.com> Richard Molpus: >The Cetagandan order of merit was 'Earned' by Lt. Vorkosigan - not >Admiral Naismith. It's in/on the public record ... >It's not a secret -can't be. >the Marilacan medal IS secret - Admiral Naismith won that - >and Admiral Naismith IS NOT Lt. Vorkosigan. And Miles explicitly notes that this occasion is the first time he's ever put BOTH sets of medals on the same uniform, which is neither his Military nor his Mercenary uniform, but his District uniform. Going back to a discussion a few weeks ago: Elli Quinn's "I'm in love with a man who thinks he's an onion." moment. Lord Vorkosigan's formal honors record includes Lt. Vorkosigan's public record which includes Admiral Naismith's secret record. The uniform of the Vor Lord (with intent) is the only place all such awards come together. Naismith had his own cover identities. For all we know, the prisoner of war who was captured by Cetagandas on Marilac and thrown into a prison camp had a cover identity with a military record of his own -- including perhaps such "honors" as the "marksmanship" medal for qualifying with the basic service weapon during initial training, or the "good conduct" medal for staying out of the brig for the entirety of hiss first enlistment contract, etc. These, however, would have been fake. Although . . . What medals are available to a Vor Lord or Lord-ling who is NOT in any military? Boy Scout merit badges? Academic honors or sports trophy medals? Dressage competition awards? Do those young men who collect 60 pennants from the various Districts, representing sixty romantic conquests, exchange them later for a single medal? -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 22:42:05 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 17:42:05 -0500 Subject: [LMB] new e-cover for The Spirit Ring now also Japanese covers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 4:56 PM Lois Bujold wrote: > the recent (abandoned) discussion here on-list > I don't understand why people feel a discussion of the book requires listing all the events in it, and won't participate otherwise. Well, the 5GW is in many ways a continuation of The Spirit Ring, so at least there's that. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 22:44:41 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 17:44:41 -0500 Subject: [LMB] new e-cover for The Spirit Ring now also Japanese covers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Addendum: The problem of covers conveying incorrect understandings of characters is a perennial one. I believe Ursula K. Le Guin was particularly annoyed by Earthsea covers, and that execrable TV miniseries, that didn't demonstrate that the people of Earthsea are largely copper-skinned. And then of course there's Heinlein... but he went to such efforts to disguise protagonists who weren't Caucasians that it's entirely possible to read his novels and never notice it at all, so he has no one to blame but himself. Matt "the last one we usually blame" G. > From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 22:47:42 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 17:47:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Olympic Medals? In-Reply-To: <73911619-ab53-1899-20db-14bc1aefaf01@aol.com> References: <73911619-ab53-1899-20db-14bc1aefaf01.ref@aol.com> <73911619-ab53-1899-20db-14bc1aefaf01@aol.com> Message-ID: Oh God... there's probably a Barrayaran equivalent of the Boy Scouts, isn't there? That sort of paramilitary organization would fit right in... Matt G. From fred.fredex at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 22:59:21 2022 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 17:59:21 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And it's also showing Haroche's dangerous blindspot -- he only looks at public matters, at oaths, as things of importance. Given how much of Vor society runs on nepotism and connections, this is a real problem for someone who aspires to be head of ImpSec. an "old boy" network. also, a developing "old girl" network, which he either doesn't know about, or just blows it off as if nothing. On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 5:20 PM Tony Zbaraschuk via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 12:56 PM wrote: > > > Haroche dismissively blowing Lady Alys off with disastrous consequences > is > > a nice callback to all the times Barrayaran men dismissed Cordelia: > > Vordarian ["You can't do--"]; Piotr ["Betan frill"]; the ministers who > > expect her to raise Gregor ["they think I have no power"]. And now Alys, > > the inevitable, and inevitably elegant, juggernaut. > > > > And it's also showing Haroche's dangerous blindspot -- he only looks at > public matters, at oaths, as things of importance. Given how much of Vor > society runs on nepotism and connections, this is a real problem for > someone who aspires to be head of ImpSec. I wonder if Simon had spotted > the problem and that was why he was fast-tracking Miles over Haroche? > (Then again, if he had noticed, wouldn't he have drawn it to Haroche's > attention as something that needed correcting?) > > > Tony Z > > > -- > Tony Zbaraschuk > Bookworm, talker, learner > Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 23:05:50 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 18:05:50 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 10:36 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > ...And she has this peculiar trick of making the most outlandish things > seem perfectly sensible, at least for the duration of the time she's > talking to you. People end up agreeing with her, and then spending the next > month wondering how it happened..." > > Did Miles know this? Did he realize that Admiral N. is like his mother in more htan name? "I want to be a soldier like my father before me..." vs "Your mother wears combat boots!" > Next morning, another visitor, and more of Martin's gloriously > inept butlering. This story desperately needs the comic releif. > > Naismith was obsessed with winning, and being seen to have > won. Vorkosigan couldn't surrender. It's not the same thing. > Dendarii hillmen grimly survived through everything, and were > the core of resistance against the Cetagandans. No wonder > Miles likes Maple Mead; there's more hillman in him than he > realised. > > This is pretty much the theme of hte story: Who are you, when you're all alone? Who are you, when people need you? Also hits the Hero's Journey: Nadir. Nowhere to go but up. Previous Nadir: Sitting in a chair, watching sunlight creep into the room, and creep out again. It's time to be Vorkosigan again. So Miles goes home, > scrubs away the shame of past events, and puts on his > best House uniform. And every damn medal he has. Extended drum roll, please. Very extended. How long does it take to hunt down and pin on all the bad luck charms? > And then he goes to the Residence. Lord Vorkosigan is > going in to battle. > > And he's dressed exactly appropriately for his goals. Lady Alys would approve. Especially since his goal is all about Simon. Sylvia From fred.fredex at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 23:16:37 2022 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 18:16:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] new e-cover for The Spirit Ring now also Japanese covers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Which happens; on the Japanese edition she appears quite Japanese, although in her canonical red dress. https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/%E3%83%AD%E3%82%A4%E3%82%B9%E3%83%BB%E3%83%9E%E3%82%AF%E3%83%9E%E3%82%B9%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%BB%E3%83%93%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A7%E3%83%AB%E3%83%89/dp/4488587011/ And, Huh! That is not the original cover art for the original Japanese printing (2001, I think) which I have on my shelf. (It had Fiametta looking pensive, and Japanese, with the lion ring.) It's had a reissue with updated art, it seems. Good. Really, it's common publishing practice. I have to say it's a beautiful cover! there is a ring-analog in the background, too. This being Japanese (even though I don't think the girl looks Japanese...) what are all the things that appear to be tied around her arms? Some Japanese symbolism? On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 4:56 PM Lois Bujold wrote: > [LMB] new e-cover for The Spirit Ring > Matthew George matt.msg at gmail.com > Mon Mar 7 18:02:11 GMT 2022 > > > > MG: I've actually seen a skybow like that - not near the horizon, but > straight > up. The painting, while lovely, doesn't quite do it justice... but I > suppose that's almost inevitably true of atmospheric phenomena. > > > LMB: It represents the magic, I believe. The first draft was more > obviously gold-ring-ish, but far too much yellow. > > > MG: Why the new cover? I thought the previous e-book cover was more than > adequate. Is it a rights issue? > > > LMB: Rights are entirely mine. But I've long wanted Fiametta to appear > on the cover of her. own. book., and the recent (abandoned) discussion > here on-list made me realize she wasn't being pictured accurately by > some readers. Which happens; on the Japanese edition she appears quite > Japanese, although in her canonical red dress. > > > > https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/%E3%83%AD%E3%82%A4%E3%82%B9%E3%83%BB%E3%83%9E%E3%82%AF%E3%83%9E%E3%82%B9%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%BB%E3%83%93%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A7%E3%83%AB%E3%83%89/dp/4488587011/ > > > And, Huh! That is not the original cover art for the original Japanese > printing (2001, I think) which I have on my shelf. (It had Fiametta > looking pensive, and Japanese, with the lion ring.) It's had a reissue > with updated art, it seems. Good. Really, it's common publishing > practice. > > And, ooh! -- lower on that page is a pic of the second Penric volume > (next to the first), of which no one has sent me an author's copy yet. > The things one learns by surfing around. Amazon.jp can give one a tour > of many of my other Japanese covers, which tend to be good art. > > Ta, L. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 00:30:38 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 18:30:38 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Olympic Medals? In-Reply-To: References: <73911619-ab53-1899-20db-14bc1aefaf01.ref@aol.com> <73911619-ab53-1899-20db-14bc1aefaf01@aol.com> Message-ID: Imagine getting a cetagandan merit in cloning improved pets. "Yes! I did clone Spot to flush the toilet and wash his paws, he can also sing the Cetagandan national anthem in four part harmony." On Mon, Mar 7, 2022, 4:46 PM Matthew George wrote: > Oh God... there's probably a Barrayaran equivalent of the Boy Scouts, isn't > there? > > That sort of paramilitary organization would fit right in... > > Matt G. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From proto at panix.com Tue Mar 8 00:46:32 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 19:46:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Olympic Medals? In-Reply-To: References: <73911619-ab53-1899-20db-14bc1aefaf01.ref@aol.com> <73911619-ab53-1899-20db-14bc1aefaf01@aol.com> Message-ID: <934F8936-36C3-4698-9AE9-A5CFE0E6D2AA@panix.com> > On Mar 7, 2022, at 5:47 PM, Matthew George wrote: > > Oh God... there's probably a Barrayaran equivalent of the Boy Scouts, isn't > there? > > That sort of paramilitary organization would fit right in... > > Matt G. Under Serg it could have become an equivalent of the Hitler Youth. ? MD. MS. in Law Robert Lustig ?If there?s a label on the food, it?s a warning label. That means it has been processed. Real food doesn?t need a label.? From howard at brazee.net Tue Mar 8 00:48:57 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 17:48:57 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Olympic Medals? In-Reply-To: References: <73911619-ab53-1899-20db-14bc1aefaf01.ref@aol.com> <73911619-ab53-1899-20db-14bc1aefaf01@aol.com> Message-ID: <5E9B9076-F9A1-4C51-AC16-5855E80D6506@brazee.net> Some countries give big monetary rewards for Olympic medals. Korea also exempts winners from the draft. From agnes at charrel.net Tue Mar 8 00:49:57 2022 From: agnes at charrel.net (Agnes Charrel-Berthillier) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 16:49:57 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Olympic Medals? In-Reply-To: References: <73911619-ab53-1899-20db-14bc1aefaf01.ref@aol.com> <73911619-ab53-1899-20db-14bc1aefaf01@aol.com> Message-ID: <674bfd99-fdf7-1ce3-c930-886d24697f20@charrel.net> On 3/7/22 14:47, Matthew George wrote: > Oh God... there's probably a Barrayaran equivalent of the Boy Scouts, isn't > there? > > That sort of paramilitary organization would fit right in... There is, with textev. See Komarr and the discussion about feedback loops, resonance, and the dumping of a "squad of Imperial Junior Scouts" in a creek. Agnes From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Mar 8 01:35:18 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 01:35:18 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Fred And it's also showing Haroche's dangerous blindspot -- he only looks at public matters, at oaths, as things of importance. Given how much of Vor society runs on nepotism and connections, this is a real problem for someone who aspires to be head of ImpSec. an "old boy" network. also, a developing "old girl" network, which he either doesn't know about, or just blows it off as if nothing. Gwynne: Yes, Haroche is a bit rigid in too many ways. I think he found out why Miles was fired from ImpSec, and wrote him off. He looked at the rest of his record but didn't understand just what Miles could do, he didn't really get the full picture. I don't think he looked up Lady Alys's ImpSec records at all. Just how good would he have been if he'd become head of ImpSec? If Simon had retired and Haroche got that promotion legitimately? I don't think he would cope well with the High Vor. He was fine when he was investigating plots, and great on the prole side of things. But he was very tone-deaf about the intricate politics, and unspoken rules, of High Vor society. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Mar 8 01:47:01 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 01:47:01 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Sylvia McIvers On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 10:36 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > ...And she has this peculiar trick of making the most outlandish things > seem perfectly sensible, at least for the duration of the time she's > talking to you. People end up agreeing with her, and then spending the next > month wondering how it happened..." Did Miles know this? Did he realize that Admiral N. is like his mother in more htan name? "I want to be a soldier like my father before me..." vs "Your mother wears combat boots!" Gwynne: Miles is so focussed on following Aral and Piotr that he doesn't really see how amazing his mother is - and Cordelia makes everything she does seem so natural, and ordinary. Can you imagine Cordelia as a mercenary? (Just think; if she'd reached Barrayar and Aral had already managed to kill himself, what would she have done? I can see her roaming the Nexus and ending up with a mercenary fleet - she'd be a lot like Elli Quinn, but probably more ruthless about making things better for people along the way. > Naismith was obsessed with winning, and being seen to have > won. Vorkosigan couldn't surrender. ... This is pretty much the theme of hte story: Who are you, when you're all alone? Who are you, when people need you? Also hits the Hero's Journey: Nadir. Nowhere to go but up. Previous Nadir: Sitting in a chair, watching sunlight creep into the room, and creep out again. Gwynne: All the most important moments in this book happen when Miles is sitting alone, thinking. This will set some things in motion, then Miles has another think, then off he goes again. > And then he goes to the Residence. Lord Vorkosigan is > going in to battle. > And he's dressed exactly appropriately for his goals. Lady Alys would approve. Especially since his goal is all about Simon. Sylvia Gwynne: We're always told what Gregor is wearing in any scene, because it's a code for who he is at that moment, and what he's planning. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Mar 8 01:51:02 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 01:51:02 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Olympic Medals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: WalterStuartBushell Under Serg it could have become an equivalent of the Hitler Youth. Gwynne: There was some sort of Barrayaran Boy Scouts; Miles and Ivan were both members of it when they were younger. Just imagine all the things you'd have to do to earn badges... From saffronrose at me.com Tue Mar 8 02:02:48 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 18:02:48 -0800 Subject: [LMB] new e-cover for The Spirit Ring now also Japanese covers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 7, 2022, at 3:17 PM, Fred wrote: > > This being Japanese (even though I don't think the girl > looks Japanese...) what are all the things that appear to be tied around > her arms? Some Japanese symbolism? The ?rings? are the separate sleeves, with the undergown?s sleeves pulled through & puffed out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1500?1550_in_Western_European_fashion gives several sleeve versions Here?s a better example https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ec/b9/81/ecb9818770c58c090f406ee1bdb8bb78.jpg This is a Tudor ?undress? version, without the outer gown & separate sleeves https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ac/08/5b/ac085ba331813e5429b49a50bd1c05c7.jpg Or stick this in your favorite browser: italian renaissance women's sleeves The Japanese artist has given an Irish interpretation of what Fiametta would have worn: a leinne under a gunna. A mainland European woman would have had a matching, coordinating, or contrasting skirt over what I see as a white chemise. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 02:57:12 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 20:57:12 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lady Alys would agree completely. In all societies, clothing is a code for "who I am and what I'm doing." On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 7:47 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Sylvia McIvers > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 10:36 AM Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > ...And she has this peculiar trick of making the most outlandish things > > seem perfectly sensible, at least for the duration of the time she's > > talking to you. People end up agreeing with her, and then spending the > next > > month wondering how it happened..." > > Did Miles know this? Did he realize that Admiral N. is like his mother in > more htan name? > "I want to be a soldier like my father before me..." vs "Your mother wears > combat boots!" > > Gwynne: Miles is so focussed on following Aral and Piotr that he doesn't > really see how amazing his mother is - and Cordelia makes everything she > does seem so natural, and ordinary. Can you imagine Cordelia as a > mercenary? > (Just think; if she'd reached Barrayar and Aral had already managed to kill > himself, what would she have done? I can see her roaming the Nexus and > ending up with a mercenary fleet - she'd be a lot like Elli Quinn, but > probably more ruthless about making things better for people along the way. > > > > Naismith was obsessed with winning, and being seen to have > > won. Vorkosigan couldn't surrender. ... > > This is pretty much the theme of hte story: Who are you, when you're all > alone? Who are you, when people need you? > Also hits the Hero's Journey: Nadir. Nowhere to go but up. > Previous Nadir: Sitting in a chair, watching sunlight creep into the room, > and creep out again. > > Gwynne: All the most important moments in this book happen when > Miles is sitting alone, thinking. This will set some things in motion, > then Miles has another think, then off he goes again. > > > > And then he goes to the Residence. Lord Vorkosigan is > > going in to battle. > > > And he's dressed exactly appropriately for his goals. Lady Alys would > approve. Especially since his goal is all about Simon. > Sylvia > > Gwynne: We're always told what Gregor is wearing in any scene, > because it's a code for who he is at that moment, and what he's > planning. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Tue Mar 8 03:02:38 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 20:02:38 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 7, 2022, at 7:57 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > Lady Alys would agree completely. In all societies, clothing is a code for > "who I am and what I'm doing.? It?s especially important if you have power in different aspects. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 03:16:24 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 21:16:24 -0600 Subject: [LMB] evanescent E, was Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: <1969f559-0c79-bedc-e32f-b405614407da@myinfmail.com> <0d09ef09-93d1-9eed-2631-7eaf7ead4235@matija.com> <92AEC3AA-1110-4D04-92F8-4F56AE7659EC@panix.com> Message-ID: I'll never forgive those asshats for making The Dune Encyclopedia non-canon. I loved that book. I used to have three copies, and sold two of them on Ebay for about $75 apiece. Not a bad profit, if I do say so myself. On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 11:53 AM Matthew George wrote: > The plots and ideas arguably weren't valuable, but the association with the > Pratchett name would have been. > > Look at what happened to Frank Herbert. His writing became hackier, but he > had a wife dying of cancer that he had to support, and the medical > treatments did nothing but prolong her death. (Still probably a good thing > from their perspectives, but a very expensive thing.) So he has something > of an excuse. > > Then his son Brian arranged for more Dune books to be written. There's a > famous Penny Arcade comic about that: > > https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/10/15 > > Matt "it's reasonably work-safe, but don't go visiting other comics, just > to be sure" G. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From wawenri at msn.com Tue Mar 8 05:18:13 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 05:18:13 +0000 Subject: [LMB] new e-cover for The Spirit Ring now also Japanese covers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was disappointed not to see the snake belt. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold Sent: Monday, March 7, 2022 7:02:48 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Cc: A. Marina Fournier Subject: Re: [LMB] new e-cover for The Spirit Ring now also Japanese covers On Mar 7, 2022, at 3:17 PM, Fred wrote: > > This being Japanese (even though I don't think the girl > looks Japanese...) what are all the things that appear to be tied around > her arms? Some Japanese symbolism? The ?rings? are the separate sleeves, with the undergown?s sleeves pulled through & puffed out. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F1500%25E2%2580%25931550_in_Western_European_fashion&data=04%7C01%7C%7C78425bbafe3e4ddf40f508da00a7c5af%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637823017819616763%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=4CGfiT3a5mqgMU6w%2Fz4pPBpFf6jGIxREfZGfv47RXfM%3D&reserved=0 gives several sleeve versions Here?s a better example https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2Fec%2Fb9%2F81%2Fecb9818770c58c090f406ee1bdb8bb78.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7C78425bbafe3e4ddf40f508da00a7c5af%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637823017819616763%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=idSmjiSMOSyOYrZcERwXdR5NhPK4eicEhnm9vLwam68%3D&reserved=0 This is a Tudor ?undress? version, without the outer gown & separate sleeves https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2F736x%2Fac%2F08%2F5b%2Fac085ba331813e5429b49a50bd1c05c7.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7C78425bbafe3e4ddf40f508da00a7c5af%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637823017819616763%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=VxdldXLmCm0P2VTRpbAgLlauIRA8wjf2BcR%2BFpFPNvY%3D&reserved=0 Or stick this in your favorite browser: italian renaissance women's sleeves The Japanese artist has given an Irish interpretation of what Fiametta would have worn: a leinne under a gunna. A mainland European woman would have had a matching, coordinating, or contrasting skirt over what I see as a white chemise. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C78425bbafe3e4ddf40f508da00a7c5af%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637823017819616763%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=RO2Y8chGd7FzmYZbmTo9zhj7dLiprvjn8YADfynyu9U%3D&reserved=0 From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Tue Mar 8 10:54:33 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2022 10:54:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] evanescent E, was Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: <1969f559-0c79-bedc-e32f-b405614407da@myinfmail.com> <0d09ef09-93d1-9eed-2631-7eaf7ead4235@matija.com> <92AEC3AA-1110-4D04-92F8-4F56AE7659EC@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 11:53 AM Matthew George wrote: > Look at what happened to Frank Herbert. His writing became hackier, but he > had a wife dying of cancer that he had to support, and the medical > treatments did nothing but prolong her death. In fairness, that all *any* medical treatment does. BIKWYM. -- The Romans didn't find algebra very challenging because X was always 10. - Envo From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Tue Mar 8 10:57:45 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2022 10:57:45 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Olympic Medals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 01:51:02 +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: >From: WalterStuartBushell > >Under Serg it could have become an equivalent of the Hitler Youth. > >Gwynne: There was some sort of Barrayaran Boy Scouts; Miles and Ivan >were both members of it when they were younger. Just imagine all the >things you'd have to do to earn badges... Cordelia could introduce the "extreme shopping" badge. -- The Romans didn't find algebra very challenging because X was always 10. - Envo From proto at panix.com Tue Mar 8 12:46:41 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 07:46:41 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Olympic Medals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 8, 2022, at 5:57 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > Cordelia could introduce the ?extreme shopping" badge. Or just give the Scouts a heads up. Aral when he was regent could have made it an order. Of course under TOI, there could have been extreme chopping merit badges. Buying the swordstick for Botheri would be also extreme shopping. ? In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over." --tweet by British columnist, Dan Hodges, June 15, 2015? From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Mar 8 13:07:35 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 13:07:35 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gregor's in his private office. And he's astonished to see Miles '..come the Vor lord with intent.' Miles makes clear his total dissatisfaction with Haroche. Gregor agrees that things are moving way too slowly, and there's far too much about what isn't happening to him. Miles suggests that Gregor check the logs for that morning, and claims his Vorish right to see Simon, it's his responsibility. Gregor asks if he thinks something is smoky. Almost got the whole plot right there, really. But no. Miles wants an Auditor - basically to stand between him and Haroche so that Miles can tear the place apart. He wants Vorhovis, but he's off to Komarr. (Gregor is working REALLY hard to smooth the way for The Wedding.) Ex-Admirals might side with Haroche against Miles. Vorparadijs.... with any luck he'd fall asleep in a corner. But Gregor has a better idea, so Miles becomes the ninth Auditor. And it's not a joke or a con, he really means for Miles to do some serious damage. I mean investigating. Miles now reports directly to the Emperor. Finally, a chain of command that works for him. Gregor, being devious and sneaky too, is using this to solve the Simon problem, and to assess Haroche, and Miles, in action. Solving so many problems at once. They discuss the possibilities. If this was sabotage, there should be a second strike, while Simon's condition is distracting everyone. But nothing more has happened. Political? Revenge? Chip degradation? Something physical? So many possibilities. And every good Auditor needs an assistant - or Miles does, anyway. And who better than... yes, Ivan is hauled out of Ops by a Vorbarra Armsman. Yes, Ivan is the donkey again. But they all agree that apart from solving the problem, this will achieve the vitally important goal of keeping Alys happy. Because all three of them, unlike Haroche, are smart enough to know that Alys has a lot of power, in so many ways. The poor gate guard at ImpSec goggles a bit, checks the Vorbarra armsmen and Ivan, then... Miles gives Haroche four minutes to get there, he does it in four and a half which is pretty good. It takes him a moment to adjust to the new and horrifying situation. Ivan is very jumpy about it all, but Miles tells him to 'quit thinking like a subordinate.' Up in Haroche's office, Miles makes a mental note not to fall back into old patterns there; he's not reporting to a superior any more. Part of Miles's brain is always thinking, planning, observing, running threat assessments. He's done that all his life. Ivan just focusses on being invisible. Haroche agrees that it could be some kind of sabotage. But if it is, he has a list of possibles. And Miles is on it. Miles and Haroche work out a sort of mutual respect, or mutually assured destruction, as a working relationship. Although Haroche does get hung up a bit on the Cetagandan Order of Merit. In the corridor Ivan mentions that it was fun watching Miles be the little admiral again. Everything but the Betan accent. Miles has to think about that one. The clinic. Simon is tied to the bed, naked and unshaved. The doctor cites 'procedures' at first, but basically it's just too hard to deal with him. Admittedly, the attendants are a bit battered. Simon recognises Miles, asks about some long-gone assignment. Miles explains the situation. Four minutes later ... rinse and repeat. The doctor explains that the cycles are getting shorter. Yesterday was every ten minutes. A guard asks why Simon believes Miles every time: mostly he just tried to kill them. One cycle brings Simon back to the present - and he doesn't want to live like that any longer. But then the moment is gone. Miles demands that Simon be washed, shaved and clothed. He helps, Simon responds to him. Miles has to go and speak with Haroche. So.... "I would rather," stated Ivan quietly, "charge a laser-cannon site naked than be in here by myself." "I'll keep it in mind," said Miles. "In the meanwhile?stay with him till I get back." "Yeah." Ivan took over the chair at Illyan's elbow as Miles vacated it. Simon recognises Ivan, too. Luckily. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Mar 8 13:27:16 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 13:27:16 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 16 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The medals work. Gregor was trying not to crowd Haroche, but he's not happy with the lack of results. It's fun seeing the three young louts together. Gregor is quite relaxed with them both. And poor Ivan - nobody explained why he was being carried off by an armsman. How often does that happen? Must create a bit of a stir in Ops. They all agree that keeping Alys happy is one of their priorities. Haroche's reaction - ohhh lovely. He nearly has a stroke on the spot. And his conference with Miles is - as Ivan says, like tap-dancing in a minefield. He also notes that Miles channelled Naismith, minus accent. So Miles, Lord Vorkosigan, can use his Naismith skills as needed. Interesting. Simon - he's in a terrible state. And the way he's cycling through consciousness, faster and faster, is really worrying. But despite it all he knows Miles, and Ivan. Family. He doesn't hold back against ImpSec personnel, you'd think he'd respect the uniforms, but that's all gone. Only family is left, and they're his family. He's worked to keep them safe for thirty years. The focus has been to get into ImpSec, and see Simon. But that was only the start, now he's got a much bigger problem to solve. And Miles is on the climb upwards again, he has a job to do. Miles needs to be working; he's not all that good with waiting. Plus - Ivan. Again. I wonder what his clearance is, really. Because they toss him into any situation, no matter how confidential. From wawenri at msn.com Tue Mar 8 17:02:59 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 17:02:59 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites Message-ID: Because of the COVID-19 restrictions, a lot more is being done online. I was disappointed with the state of online scheduling and ordering sites two years ago. They haven't improved much since. Today I tried to use an automated system to schedule some lab tests. The phone system said that it was too busy, and I had to use the online system. The online system took my information and then told me that I couldn't schedule the appointment that I already scheduled. Finally, I was able to get to a customer service representative who scheduled my appointment. It took a human to perform a relatively simple task. Scheduling websites aren't that difficult. Even I have built them. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 17:27:25 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:27:25 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 16 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The description of Simon's deterioration always reminded me of someone with Alzheimer's. I've seen quite a few of those who were lost in the past and had to be told, again and again, when it was and where they were. On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 7:27 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > The medals work. Gregor was trying not to crowd Haroche, but > he's not happy with the lack of results. > > It's fun seeing the three young louts together. Gregor is quite > relaxed with them both. And poor Ivan - nobody explained why > he was being carried off by an armsman. How often does that > happen? Must create a bit of a stir in Ops. > > They all agree that keeping Alys happy is one of their priorities. > > Haroche's reaction - ohhh lovely. He nearly has a stroke on the > spot. And his conference with Miles is - as Ivan says, like > tap-dancing in a minefield. He also notes that Miles channelled > Naismith, minus accent. So Miles, Lord Vorkosigan, can use > his Naismith skills as needed. Interesting. > > Simon - he's in a terrible state. And the way he's cycling through > consciousness, faster and faster, is really worrying. But despite > it all he knows Miles, and Ivan. Family. He doesn't hold back > against ImpSec personnel, you'd think he'd respect the uniforms, > but that's all gone. Only family is left, and they're his family. He's > worked to keep them safe for thirty years. > > The focus has been to get into ImpSec, and see Simon. But that > was only the start, now he's got a much bigger problem to solve. > > And Miles is on the climb upwards again, he has a job to do. > Miles needs to be working; he's not all that good with waiting. > > Plus - Ivan. Again. I wonder what his clearance is, really. Because > they toss him into any situation, no matter how confidential. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 17:32:07 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:32:07 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Simon recognizes Ivan---and greets him with: "Ivan, you idiot. What are you doing here?" I can understand why Ivan gets very, very tired of being called an idiot. On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 7:07 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Gregor's in his private office. And he's astonished to see Miles > '..come the Vor lord with intent.' > > Miles makes clear his total dissatisfaction with Haroche. Gregor > agrees that things are moving way too slowly, and there's far too > much about what isn't happening to him. > > Miles suggests that Gregor check the logs for that morning, and > claims his Vorish right to see Simon, it's his responsibility. > > Gregor asks if he thinks something is smoky. Almost got the > whole plot right there, really. But no. > > Miles wants an Auditor - basically to stand between him and > Haroche so that Miles can tear the place apart. He wants > Vorhovis, but he's off to Komarr. (Gregor is working REALLY > hard to smooth the way for The Wedding.) Ex-Admirals > might side with Haroche against Miles. Vorparadijs.... with > any luck he'd fall asleep in a corner. But Gregor has a better > idea, so Miles becomes the ninth Auditor. And it's not a joke > or a con, he really means for Miles to do some serious > damage. I mean investigating. > > Miles now reports directly to the Emperor. Finally, a chain of > command that works for him. > > Gregor, being devious and sneaky too, is using this to solve > the Simon problem, and to assess Haroche, and Miles, in > action. Solving so many problems at once. > > They discuss the possibilities. If this was sabotage, there > should be a second strike, while Simon's condition is > distracting everyone. But nothing more has happened. > Political? Revenge? Chip degradation? Something > physical? So many possibilities. > > And every good Auditor needs an assistant - or Miles > does, anyway. And who better than... yes, Ivan is hauled out > of Ops by a Vorbarra Armsman. Yes, Ivan is the donkey > again. But they all agree that apart from solving the problem, > this will achieve the vitally important goal of keeping Alys > happy. Because all three of them, unlike Haroche, are smart > enough to know that Alys has a lot of power, in so many ways. > > The poor gate guard at ImpSec goggles a bit, checks the > Vorbarra armsmen and Ivan, then... Miles gives Haroche four > minutes to get there, he does it in four and a half which is > pretty good. It takes him a moment to adjust to the > new and horrifying situation. > > Ivan is very jumpy about it all, but Miles tells him to 'quit > thinking like a subordinate.' > > Up in Haroche's office, Miles makes a mental note not to > fall back into old patterns there; he's not reporting to a > superior any more. Part of Miles's brain is always thinking, > planning, observing, running threat assessments. He's done > that all his life. Ivan just focusses on being invisible. > > Haroche agrees that it could be some kind of sabotage. > But if it is, he has a list of possibles. And Miles is on it. > > Miles and Haroche work out a sort of mutual respect, or > mutually assured destruction, as a working relationship. > Although Haroche does get hung up a bit on the Cetagandan > Order of Merit. > > In the corridor Ivan mentions that it was fun watching > Miles be the little admiral again. Everything but the Betan > accent. Miles has to think about that one. > > The clinic. Simon is tied to the bed, naked and unshaved. > The doctor cites 'procedures' at first, but basically it's > just too hard to deal with him. Admittedly, the attendants > are a bit battered. > > Simon recognises Miles, asks about some long-gone > assignment. Miles explains the situation. Four minutes > later ... rinse and repeat. The doctor explains that the > cycles are getting shorter. Yesterday was every ten > minutes. > > A guard asks why Simon believes Miles every time: > mostly he just tried to kill them. > > One cycle brings Simon back to the present - and he > doesn't want to live like that any longer. But then the > moment is gone. > > Miles demands that Simon be washed, shaved and > clothed. He helps, Simon responds to him. Miles has to > go and speak with Haroche. So.... > "I would rather," stated Ivan quietly, "charge a laser-cannon site naked > than be in here by myself." > "I'll keep it in mind," said Miles. "In the meanwhile?stay with him till I > get back." > "Yeah." Ivan took over the chair at Illyan's elbow as Miles vacated it. > > Simon recognises Ivan, too. Luckily. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Tue Mar 8 17:44:58 2022 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:44:58 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 16 Message-ID: So, it's time for the Echo's Children classic, Alys' Lullabye: ?https://echoschildren.bandcamp.com/track/alys-lullabye ? Gwynne, thank you again for the fabulous job you're doing leading this discussion.? Even after all these years, I'm still gaining new insights and learning new things and seeing connections in new ways. ? Jerrie From fishman at panix.com Tue Mar 8 18:03:45 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2022 18:03:45 +0000 Subject: [LMB] LMB] Memory Ch 4 OT: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I believe that that is the Panasonic Toughbook. Still made, I think. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "WalterStuartBushell" To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 2/27/2022 6:49:30 AM Subject: Re: [LMB] LMB] Memory Ch 4 OT: > > >> On Feb 27, 2022, at 4:21 AM, Lucy Chubb wrote: >> >> I did some software development on one of those many years ago.. the story was that one of them was thrown at a (wooden) wall during acceptance testing and went through the wall.. they were seriously solid. > >> >> L > >Did it work after it went through the wall? If the wall was ?sheet rock? perhaps that?s not a good test, considering >what construction workers call it. (a simple vowel shift.) >> >> On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 06:45:23PM +0000, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >>> There were also military hardened laptops that could fall off a truck and run over, if they were closed. > > Blessed are the cheesemakers, for they lead the whey.?Allan Richardson > >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From jane at starchak.ca Tue Mar 8 18:18:41 2022 From: jane at starchak.ca (jane at starchak.ca) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:18:41 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyyyyyy! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002701d83318$f111fff0$d335ffd0$@starchak.ca> Thank you! A good deal more exciting that my real day, which was mainly reading books and drinking tea. Shopping sounds lovely after a couple of years of NOT shopping much, and especially with such companions. That alone would be a stellar day! Jane _________________________________________ Jane Starr > -----Original Message----- > From: Lois-Bujold On Behalf Of > Gwynne Powell > Sent: March 7, 2022 6:00 AM > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyyyyyy! > > > > Today we celebrate the birthday of Jane Starr. > > Jane, we send you all our biggest and best birthday wishes for a wonderful > day. > > And to help you celebrate, you'll be spending the day with that famous all-girl > combat team, the Koudelkas! These women aren't just amazing at unarmed > combat; they're excellent shoppers too - they know all the best and most > interesting stores in Vorbarr Sultana. Plus the best cafes, too. And in the > evening you'll wear one of your new dresses to a reception at the Residence, > where you'll dance with handsome and dashing young officers, meet the > Emperor, and have a chat with Drou - who knows all the good gossip. > > Have a wonderful day, Jane! > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to jane at starchak.ca Lois- > Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi- > bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From kawyle at att.net Tue Mar 8 18:38:52 2022 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 18:38:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1070722185.896601.1646764732280@mail.yahoo.com> I second these thanks! Gwynne has had such fascinating insights, as well as summing up the chapters in such style, that I'm eager to reread Memory. Karen A. Wyle On Tuesday, March 8, 2022, 12:45:18 PM EST, adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com wrote: [snip]? Gwynne, thank you again for the fabulous job you're doing leading this discussion.? Even after all these years, I'm still gaining new insights and learning new things and seeing connections in new ways. ? Jerrie -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From proto at panix.com Tue Mar 8 18:45:49 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 13:45:49 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 16 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 8, 2022, at 8:27 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Haroche's reaction - ohhh lovely. He nearly has a stroke on the > spot. Just think of how much better off everyone would be?including Haroche. First priority for Miles would be appointing a new head of ImpSec. The case of who done it, would most likely gone faster without Haroche doing his best to block the investigation. Not so much of a story though. ? In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over." --tweet by British columnist, Dan Hodges, June 15, 2015? From proto at panix.com Tue Mar 8 18:52:42 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 13:52:42 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2DE5D847-2E05-4E34-A9EC-8147BE4F268F@panix.com> > On Mar 8, 2022, at 12:32 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > Simon recognizes Ivan---and greets him with: "Ivan, you idiot. What are > you doing here?" > > I can understand why Ivan gets very, very tired of being called an idiot. He rapidly finds the procaryotes. He managed to miss the ship that was sabotaged and deliver the treason letter to Miles. In fact, he has a genius hind brain and excels at handling snakes. ? "We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." - Attributed to Plato From loisaletafundis at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 19:13:06 2022 From: loisaletafundis at gmail.com (Lois Aleta Fundis) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 14:13:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyyyyyy! In-Reply-To: <002701d83318$f111fff0$d335ffd0$@starchak.ca> References: <002701d83318$f111fff0$d335ffd0$@starchak.ca> Message-ID: "... A good deal more exciting that my real day, which was mainly reading books and drinking tea." Then again, reading books can be exciting, if the books are! And the tea can be, too, sometimes, if you use a different type of tea or sweetener (or other amenity) to it. On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 1:18 PM wrote: > Thank you! A good deal more exciting that my real day, which was mainly > reading books and drinking tea. Shopping sounds lovely after a couple of > years of NOT shopping much, and especially with such companions. That alone > would be a stellar day! > > Jane > _________________________________________ > Jane Starr > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lois-Bujold On Behalf Of > > Gwynne Powell > > Sent: March 7, 2022 6:00 AM > > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyyyyyy! > > > > > > > > Today we celebrate the birthday of Jane Starr. > > > > Jane, we send you all our biggest and best birthday wishes for a > wonderful > > day. > > > > And to help you celebrate, you'll be spending the day with that famous > all-girl > > combat team, the Koudelkas! These women aren't just amazing at unarmed > > combat; they're excellent shoppers too - they know all the best and most > > interesting stores in Vorbarr Sultana. Plus the best cafes, too. And in > the > > evening you'll wear one of your new dresses to a reception at the > Residence, > > where you'll dance with handsome and dashing young officers, meet the > > Emperor, and have a chat with Drou - who knows all the good gossip. > > > > Have a wonderful day, Jane! > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to jane at starchak.ca Lois- > > Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi- > > bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to loisaletafundis at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois Aleta Fundis loisaletafundis at gmail.com [image: image.png] From matt.msg at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 20:46:50 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 15:46:50 -0500 Subject: [LMB] evanescent E, was Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: <1969f559-0c79-bedc-e32f-b405614407da@myinfmail.com> <0d09ef09-93d1-9eed-2631-7eaf7ead4235@matija.com> <92AEC3AA-1110-4D04-92F8-4F56AE7659EC@panix.com> Message-ID: It was never canonical. Frank Herbert approved of its writing, not least because its deconstructive perspective and alternative interpretations were a fantastic example of the approach to historical narratives that the Dune novels' theme clearly advocated. But nothing in it was necessarily 'true'. Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson, however, rendered it 'false'. On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 10:16 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > I'll never forgive those asshats for making The Dune Encyclopedia > non-canon. I loved that book. I used to have three copies, and sold two > of them on Ebay for about $75 apiece. Not a bad profit, if I do say so > myself. > From matt.msg at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 20:48:07 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 15:48:07 -0500 Subject: [LMB] evanescent E, was Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: <1969f559-0c79-bedc-e32f-b405614407da@myinfmail.com> <0d09ef09-93d1-9eed-2631-7eaf7ead4235@matija.com> <92AEC3AA-1110-4D04-92F8-4F56AE7659EC@panix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 5:54 AM Marc Wilson wrote: > In fairness, that all *any* medical treatment does. > Not exactly. Ideally, medical treatment prolongs life, the process of living. The cancer treatments she was given ended up prolonging the process of death. One involves the other, but not vice versa. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 20:52:43 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 15:52:43 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Olympic Medals? In-Reply-To: <674bfd99-fdf7-1ce3-c930-886d24697f20@charrel.net> References: <73911619-ab53-1899-20db-14bc1aefaf01.ref@aol.com> <73911619-ab53-1899-20db-14bc1aefaf01@aol.com> <674bfd99-fdf7-1ce3-c930-886d24697f20@charrel.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 7:50 PM Agnes Charrel-Berthillier wrote: > There is, with textev. See Komarr and the discussion about feedback > loops, resonance, and the dumping of a "squad of Imperial Junior Scouts" > in a creek. > Thanks for that reminder. I wonder if it's open to everyone, or restricted to the Vor class, at the time Miles and Ivan were in it. From htgriffin at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 21:17:12 2022 From: htgriffin at yahoo.com (H. Torrance Griffin) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:17:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] One thing about Ivan References: <444443125.1403.1646774232341.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <444443125.1403.1646774232341@mail.yahoo.com> I am certain that being referred to as variations of 'Idiot' is quite irritating. A highly probable alternative, which is to be referred to as 'Prospective Emperor', is terrifying. From howard at brazee.net Tue Mar 8 21:20:56 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 14:20:56 -0700 Subject: [LMB] One thing about Ivan In-Reply-To: <444443125.1403.1646774232341@mail.yahoo.com> References: <444443125.1403.1646774232341.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <444443125.1403.1646774232341@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 8, 2022, at 2:17 PM, H. Torrance Griffin via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > I am certain that being referred to as variations of 'Idiot' is quite irritating. > A highly probable alternative, which is to be referred to as 'Prospective Emperor', is terrifying. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to howard at brazee.net > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold I was thinking that our common definition of ?stooge? doesn?t fit The Three Stooges. From proto at panix.com Tue Mar 8 21:25:28 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 16:25:28 -0500 Subject: [LMB] One thing about Ivan In-Reply-To: <444443125.1403.1646774232341@mail.yahoo.com> References: <444443125.1403.1646774232341.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <444443125.1403.1646774232341@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5ABEE8BD-4B12-4030-B5B5-CEFA9E7CF8CB@panix.com> > On Mar 8, 2022, at 4:17 PM, H. Torrance Griffin via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > I am certain that being referred to as variations of 'Idiot' is quite irritating. > A highly probable alternative, which is to be referred to as ?Prospective Emperor', is terrifying. But if some clique wants a puppet, an idiot may be just the thing. Ivan is clearly competent so that?s out. He?s getting his regular promotions even now. > ? "We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." - Attributed to Plato From jane at starchak.ca Tue Mar 8 21:28:43 2022 From: jane at starchak.ca (jane at starchak.ca) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 14:28:43 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyyyyyy! In-Reply-To: References: <002701d83318$f111fff0$d335ffd0$@starchak.ca> Message-ID: <003801d83333$7dafede0$790fc9a0$@starchak.ca> > -----Original Message----- > From: Lois-Bujold On Behalf Of Lois > Aleta Fundis > > "... A good deal more exciting that my real day, which was mainly reading > books and drinking tea." > > Then again, reading books can be exciting, if the books are! And the tea can > be, too, sometimes, if you use a different type of tea or sweetener (or other > amenity) to it. This is true. The teas were Earl Grey (which I have often) to start, and later Dragon Pearls, which was new to me so I tried it both without milk and with. It was delicious both ways. The books, from Seanan McGuire (she always releases an Incryptid book just in time for my birthday!) and J.D. Robb, were very good, although different. And reading books/drinking tea are among my favourite occupations when I can't get out in the garden. Since it was my birthday, I indulged in both to my heart's content ? Jane From matt.msg at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 22:11:25 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 17:11:25 -0500 Subject: [LMB] One thing about Ivan In-Reply-To: <5ABEE8BD-4B12-4030-B5B5-CEFA9E7CF8CB@panix.com> References: <444443125.1403.1646774232341.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <444443125.1403.1646774232341@mail.yahoo.com> <5ABEE8BD-4B12-4030-B5B5-CEFA9E7CF8CB@panix.com> Message-ID: But there IS such a thing as being too stupid to manipulate. Ivan did a good job of simulating that. A puppet not smart enough to respond to your instructions... isn't much of a puppet. On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 4:25 PM WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > > > On Mar 8, 2022, at 4:17 PM, H. Torrance Griffin via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > I am certain that being referred to as variations of 'Idiot' is quite > irritating. > > A highly probable alternative, which is to be referred to as > ?Prospective Emperor', is terrifying. > > But if some clique wants a puppet, an idiot may be just the thing. Ivan is > clearly competent so > that?s out. He?s getting his regular promotions even now. > > > > ? > "We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy > of life is when men are afraid of the light." > - Attributed to Plato > > > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to matt.msg at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From a_neff at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 8 22:44:23 2022 From: a_neff at bellsouth.net (Ann Neff) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 17:44:23 -0500 Subject: [LMB] One thing about Ivan In-Reply-To: References: <444443125.1403.1646774232341.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <444443125.1403.1646774232341@mail.yahoo.com> <5ABEE8BD-4B12-4030-B5B5-CEFA9E7CF8CB@panix.com> Message-ID: <007e01d8333e$0fb10d00$2f132700$@bellsouth.net> There was an excellent HP/Vorkosiverse crossover fic many years ago, in which someone tries to hit Ivan with Imperio. It bounces right back, giving the spellcaster a splitting headache. Apparently, defense by sheer bloody-mindedness Good reading! -----Original Message----- From: Lois-Bujold On Behalf Of Matthew George Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2022 5:11 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] One thing about Ivan But there IS such a thing as being too stupid to manipulate. Ivan did a good job of simulating that. A puppet not smart enough to respond to your instructions... isn't much of a puppet. On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 4:25 PM WalterStuartBushell wrote: From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 22:49:13 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 17:49:13 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Olympic Medals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 8:51 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Gwynne: There was some sort of Barrayaran Boy Scouts; Miles and Ivan > were both members of it when they were younger. Just imagine all the > things you'd have to do to earn badges... > -- > For example, Cross The Bridge Without Shaking It To Pieces. (I'm pickin' up good vibrations...) From saffronrose at me.com Tue Mar 8 23:24:35 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 15:24:35 -0800 Subject: [LMB] One thing about Ivan In-Reply-To: <007e01d8333e$0fb10d00$2f132700$@bellsouth.net> References: <007e01d8333e$0fb10d00$2f132700$@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <0B0F1134-6685-41B3-A3A9-65FA05CF9494@me.com> On Mar 8, 2022, at 2:44 PM, Ann Neff wrote: > > ?There was an excellent HP/Vorkosiverse crossover fic many years ago, in which someone tries to hit Ivan with Imperio. It bounces right back, giving the spellcaster a splitting headache. Apparently, defense by sheer bloody-mindedness Lord Peter manages defense by piffle. My son managed to confound bullies by talking piffle in words they would probably never learn. They got bored and left him alone. Marina From wembleyware at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 23:42:01 2022 From: wembleyware at gmail.com (Sharon Micenko) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 07:42:01 +0800 Subject: [LMB] Memory Chap 13 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gwynne wrote "It's fun seeing the three young louts together. Gregor is quite relaxed with them both. And poor Ivan - nobody explained why he was being carried off by an armsman. How often does that happen? Must create a bit of a stir in Ops.? Someone else (Mad Yuri) sent Vorbarra Armsmen after Ivan?s family. It would certainly give him pause for thought. Luckily, he trusts Gregor. But still? Sharon From wembleyware at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 23:43:19 2022 From: wembleyware at gmail.com (Sharon Micenko) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 07:43:19 +0800 Subject: [LMB] Memory Chap 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry. Chap 16, not 13. > On 9 Mar 2022, at 7:42 am, Sharon Micenko wrote: > > > Gwynne wrote > "It's fun seeing the three young louts together. Gregor is quite > relaxed with them both. And poor Ivan - nobody explained why > he was being carried off by an armsman. How often does that > happen? Must create a bit of a stir in Ops.? > > Someone else (Mad Yuri) sent Vorbarra Armsmen after Ivan?s family. It would certainly give him pause for thought. Luckily, he trusts Gregor. But still? > > Sharon From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 23:50:04 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 17:50:04 -0600 Subject: [LMB] One thing about Ivan In-Reply-To: <0B0F1134-6685-41B3-A3A9-65FA05CF9494@me.com> References: <007e01d8333e$0fb10d00$2f132700$@bellsouth.net> <0B0F1134-6685-41B3-A3A9-65FA05CF9494@me.com> Message-ID: I'd love stories where an older Ivan becomes the "Lord Peter Wimsey " of Barrayar On Tue, Mar 8, 2022, 5:24 PM A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Mar 8, 2022, at 2:44 PM, Ann Neff wrote: > > > > ?There was an excellent HP/Vorkosiverse crossover fic many years ago, in > which someone tries to hit Ivan with Imperio. It bounces right back, > giving the spellcaster a splitting headache. Apparently, defense by sheer > bloody-mindedness > > Lord Peter manages defense by piffle. > > My son managed to confound bullies by talking piffle in words they would > probably never learn. They got bored and left him alone. > > Marina > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From fishman at panix.com Wed Mar 9 00:26:51 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2022 00:26:51 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: PLEASE do not blow this one up!!!!!!! We miss you when it happens!! Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "Gwynne Powell" To: "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 2/24/2022 9:21:46 AM Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 4 > > >Sorry for the delay. Do I look different? I'm on a new laptop, and using a new modem. >There's a long and involved saga explaining why. You don't want to know. > >I missed quite a bit, skipped a lot to catch up. Apologies if I missed anything vital. > >Now, my meandering continues..... > >Chapter 4 > >Cockroach Central: forbidding and threatening. Omen overkill, really. >(Side note... I'd love to see a biography of the mad architect.) Miles >hesitates at the entrance: at this point most readers are yelling "Miles! >Don't do it!" And Miles tells himself he's going to come clean with >Simon - I wonder if he really believes it. > >Miles doesn't get an escort to Simon's office. Because they trust him. > >Haroche is in the outer office - I wonder if that's by chance, or did >he want to see the nepotistic roadblock to his ambitions? > >Miles usually reports to the Head of Galactic Affairs on Komarr, >but this time he's been sent straight through. Ohhh Miles, see >the signs. > >Simon isn't there. So Miles can't come clean. Accident? Ha. So >he hands the tissue of lies to the secretary. > >And now he's on leave until called. Afte the huge rush to get >there. Again, unusual. Just how many red flags does a man need? >Instantly Miles is in weasel-mode. If he's on leave he could go >to Escobar, get treated, and ... nope. Not allowed off-planet. It's >interesting how fast 'I'm going to tell the truth' became 'I could >head to Escobar....' Was he ever really going to come clean? > >Haroche makes ponderous conversation with Miles for a moment, >then takes a shot at Aral; Haroche doesn't think they need a >Department for Sergyaran Affairs, but Aral pushed for it so it >happened. (Maybe the low population is balanced by the >nearness to the Whole and the Cetas? And all those non- >Barrayarans settling there? Nexus on the doorstep? And >planning for the future, too. Hmph. > >Miles doesn't like the kick at nepotism - Haroche should >know that Miles has earned his place there. So Miles takes >a shot at 'cushy' desk jobs. So there. > >Miles runs into Duv on the way out. Duv has a secret (in >Impsec? Good luck with that)... he's pursuing a woman. Komarran, >important family, smart, plus all the rest. (Miles makes his >romances sound like military campaigns, Duv makes his >sound like he's hiring for his department.) She's basically >the Komarran equivalent of a princess. Duv was once on that >level too - bit of a Lost Prince trope going on there. > >Miles is all alone - the armsmen and the whole circus have gone >to Sergyar. So, already things are being stripped away from him. > >This chapter is full of little nothing events that become huge later; >Haroche sniping at Miles, Duv's courtship ambitions, Miles >taking time to walk home, the Kosti family connection, Zap the >cat... little nothings that we skip over to get to the action, and >later realise... oh she's sneaky. There's even mention of the >little park beside Vorkosigan House. > >Miles also notices that he doesn't draw much attention - nobody >is fending off the evil mutie. Has he changed, or Barrayar? All >around him things are changing. The gate guard looks far too >young, to Miles. He's grown, and changed. Moved on, without >realising it. > >Vorkosigan House - empty. Being the only person in it must >be unsettling. You'd be all alone with the ghosts - and a scary >lot they'd be, too. > >Miles does a tour - there's some changes, some furniture >missing (I wonder if it will ever come back? Probably not.) >His car is in the garage - probably not a good idea to drive. >There's plenty of booze, no food. > >His old room is neat and tidy, and doesn't feel like anyone lives >there. Who lives there? Still working on that identity thing. > >So, he's got a big house, time, and he can do anything he wants. >Except what he wants the most. He uses his superior skills to >forage for food in the wilds of Vorbarr Sultana. He finds a suitable >store, gets some TV dinners, and the only reaction from the >clerk is 'Bachelor?' Miles is used to more of a reaction. > >He wears dress greens and dines in state in the formal dining >room. Not sure it makes the meal taste better. Miles is so alone, >he's cut off from his normal support networks. So he calls Ivan. >Another interesting little nothing mention here - Ivan gave the >Vorkosigan tribute at the Emperor's Birthday. If anything happens >to Miles, Ivan is next in line. > >Ivan co-opts Miles for a state dinner at the Residence. I love the >casual way they share the Koudelka girls out between them. Miles >has a good idea - take Duv and his new lady as well. As a kind >favour. Yes, another of those little nothing moments that has a >bit of an effect later on. > >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From saffronrose at me.com Wed Mar 9 00:27:48 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 16:27:48 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03FE911D-9E7C-4B08-A500-2CF8633594D3@me.com> On Mar 8, 2022, at 9:04 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > ?Because of the COVID-19 restrictions, a lot more is being done online. I was disappointed with the state of online scheduling and ordering sites two years ago. They haven't improved much since. Too true. Stanford Healthcare?s online scheduling tool stinks, but Stanford Blood Center?s rocks. I?ve noticed that medical office scheduling tools need help. Not enough testing, poor user interface?and that?s from a skilled user?s point of view. There are a lot of retail sites with ineffectual search functions: try to *eliminate* something, and you?ll get only that. Ask for something very specific and you might as well not have narrowed the search at all. Grrr. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 9 09:28:23 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 09:28:23 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Eric Oppen Simon recognizes Ivan---and greets him with: "Ivan, you idiot. What are you doing here?" I can understand why Ivan gets very, very tired of being called an idiot. Miles made several spectacular mistakes, including several that were outright treason. He delayed marrying until he was past thirty. He needed to be rescued, or saved from himself, repeatedly. Gregor fell for a plotter who almost usurped his camp stool. He ran away from the Empire, which was treason and broke every oath and honour. He delayed marrying until his mid-thirties, despite the stability of the empire depending on a secure dynasty. Ivan also delayed marrying until he was past thirty, just like the other two. He never broke an oath or committed treason. His worst crime was a collection of speeding and parking fines. He worked hard, earned regular promotion, never betrayed anyone or ran away from his job. He was always available when called on for extra, usually top-secret and often dangerous tasks. He was the next in line for the camp stool, but was never involved in any conspiracy. Nobody ever tempted him, tricked him, blackmailed him, or involved him in anything political or dangerous. He lived at the heart of all the political plots and conspiracies, and he was teflon. And Ivan is the one who gets the criticism. He's constantly blamed for delaying getting married - apparently it would have been better to have a loveless marriage with a wife who was just a breeding partner. Aral, last of the Vorkosigans, delayed marrying again until his mid-forties. Everyone around him married for love, but Ivan gets criticised for not making a loveless marriage. Ivan never committed treason. He was reliable and honest. Nobody ever had to guard him, find him, protect him, shield him from the consequences of his actions. He never put a foot wrong politically, never caused a problem. And Ivan is the idiot? From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 9 09:37:58 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 09:37:58 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com So, it's time for the Echo's Children classic, Alys' Lullabye: ?https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fechoschildren.bandcamp.com%2Ftrack%2Falys-lullabye&data=04%7C01%7C%7C0fedc870bcad4821a88a08da01457004%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637823694995399027%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=CxG2SsXEHFhVwDhRbB3XpzEfC3cckaqR%2FGLvMRzLfwQ%3D&reserved=0 ? Gwynne, thank you again for the fabulous job you're doing leading this discussion.? Even after all these years, I'm still gaining new insights and learning new things and seeing connections in new ways. Jerrie Gwynne: I'm glad that it makes sense! It's just a ramble through the novel, noting things that strike me at the time. I love all the discussions that are sparked, and the insights from everyone else. It also makes me really pay attention to details in the books - there's always something new to discover. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 9 09:45:36 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 09:45:36 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyyyyyy! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Thank you! A good deal more exciting that my real day, which was mainly reading books and drinking tea. Shopping sounds lovely after a couple of years of NOT shopping much, and especially with such companions. That alone would be a stellar day! Jane Gwynne: I'm glad you enjoyed the Bujoldian day. Your real day sounds good too. (My days at the moment involve staring at 14metre floodwaters. Yes, shopping would be WONDERFUL. Getting out of here to do ANYTHING would be wonderful. I'm so bored I'm cleaning out kitchen cupboards.) However you celebrate it, happy birthday! From proto at panix.com Wed Mar 9 10:27:52 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 05:27:52 -0500 Subject: [LMB] One thing about Ivan In-Reply-To: <007e01d8333e$0fb10d00$2f132700$@bellsouth.net> References: <444443125.1403.1646774232341.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <444443125.1403.1646774232341@mail.yahoo.com> <5ABEE8BD-4B12-4030-B5B5-CEFA9E7CF8CB@panix.com> <007e01d8333e$0fb10d00$2f132700$@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <6C7D5825-C82A-4D55-943A-65209214756A@panix.com> > On Mar 8, 2022, at 5:44 PM, Ann Neff wrote: > > There was an excellent HP/Vorkosiverse crossover fic many years ago, in which someone tries to hit Ivan with Imperio. It bounces right back, giving the spellcaster a splitting headache. Apparently, defense by sheer bloody-mindedness > > Good reading! acac OK, Imperio is Spanish for Empire, but I need more HP background to understand your point. ? "We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." - Attributed to Plato From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 9 10:46:56 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 10:46:56 +0000 Subject: [LMB] One thing about Ivan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: WalterStuartBushell > On Mar 8, 2022, at 4:17 PM, H. Torrance Griffin via Lois-Bujold wrote: > I am certain that being referred to as variations of 'Idiot' is quite irritating. > A highly probable alternative, which is to be referred to as ?Prospective Emperor', is terrifying. But if some clique wants a puppet, an idiot may be just the thing. Ivan is clearly competent so that?s out. He?s getting his regular promotions even now. Gwynne: Ivan was the Viable Alternative from the moment he was born. And he lived most of his first thirty years in Vorbarr Sultana - heart of the Empire and yet he was never involved in anything. Gregor fell for Vordrozda, but Ivan, the not-so-idiot, never did. And nobody noticed, or gave him credit. Ivan did his job so well and so quietly that nobody thought about it at all. And... ok, I'm shameless: https://archiveofourown.org/works/153447 From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 9 10:50:39 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 10:50:39 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Chap 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Sharon Micenko Gwynne wrote "It's fun seeing the three young louts together. Gregor is quite relaxed with them both. And poor Ivan - nobody explained why he was being carried off by an armsman. How often does that happen? Must create a bit of a stir in Ops.? Someone else (Mad Yuri) sent Vorbarra Armsmen after Ivan?s family. It would certainly give him pause for thought. Luckily, he trusts Gregor. But still? Sharon Gwynne: I'd forgotten that! Yes, that might give a momentary twinge. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 9 10:52:30 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 10:52:30 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Harvey Fishman" PLEASE do not blow this one up!!!!!!! We miss you when it happens!! Harvey Gwynne: I don't do it on purpose. Stuff just happens. From howard at brazee.net Wed Mar 9 13:33:09 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 06:33:09 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 9, 2022, at 2:28 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Miles made several spectacular mistakes, including several that were > outright treason. He delayed marrying until he was past thirty. He > needed to be rescued, or saved from himself, repeatedly. He needed to grow up before marrying. ... > And Ivan is the idiot? We haven?t seen it. From proto at panix.com Wed Mar 9 13:42:35 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 08:42:35 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Tsipis, Dr. Professora Helen Vorthys, Miles and Ekaterine Message-ID: Do we see him in person anyplace except the trip to gather biospecimens and stones with the lunch at the Vorkosigan Counts Residence? He?s otherwise off stage and consulted over a comconsole. A minor character with a big influence on the plots. IIRC, the only mentor Miles constantly consults. I imagine as a kid some kids referred to him as Tispiss. Children will spoonerize anything. I think Dr. Professora Helen Vorthys knew more about what was going on between Miles and Ekaterine than either of the latter. I?d like to read her diary entries about this romance. ? The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret. ? Terry Pratchett, The Truth From proto at panix.com Wed Mar 9 13:48:16 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 08:48:16 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Focus and Illan Message-ID: <000B0DC7-51DA-46F9-A52C-834AEF74C21C@panix.com> In Vernor Vinge?s _A Deepness in the Sky_: A group for the Emergents induce obsession with a single idea or specialty, which they call Focus, essentially turning people into brilliant appliances. Many Qeng Ho another group become Focused against their will. Seems similar to what happens to Illyan. __ What is the difference between unethical and ethical advertising? Unethical advertising uses falsehoods to deceive the public; ethical advertising uses truth to deceive the public. Vilhjalmur Stefansson (1879 ? 1962) From proto at panix.com Wed Mar 9 13:52:31 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 08:52:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: <03FE911D-9E7C-4B08-A500-2CF8633594D3@me.com> References: <03FE911D-9E7C-4B08-A500-2CF8633594D3@me.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 8, 2022, at 7:27 PM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > There are a lot of retail sites with ineffectual search functions: try to *eliminate* something, and you?ll get only that. Ask for something very specific and you might as well not have narrowed the search at all. > > Grrr. Well the site works for their purposes not yours. ? Of course our planet has its mood swings ? it is, after all, bipolar. From proto at panix.com Wed Mar 9 13:59:20 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 08:59:20 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 9, 2022, at 8:33 AM, Howard Brazee wrote: > > He needed to grow up before marrying. He just never met the right woman; perhaps he was looking for non Vor genetics like Gregor. He does have a pattern of making right decisions for reasons of which he is unconscious. ? MD. MS. in Law Robert Lustig ?If there?s a label on the food, it?s a warning label. That means it has been processed. Real food doesn?t need a label.? From vanlook19 at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 14:13:29 2022 From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 06:13:29 -0800 Subject: [LMB] One thing about Ivan In-Reply-To: <6C7D5825-C82A-4D55-943A-65209214756A@panix.com> References: <444443125.1403.1646774232341.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <444443125.1403.1646774232341@mail.yahoo.com> <5ABEE8BD-4B12-4030-B5B5-CEFA9E7CF8CB@panix.com> <007e01d8333e$0fb10d00$2f132700$@bellsouth.net> <6C7D5825-C82A-4D55-943A-65209214756A@panix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 2:28 AM WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > On Mar 8, 2022, at 5:44 PM, Ann Neff wrote: > > There was an excellent HP/Vorkosiverse crossover fic many years ago, in > which someone tries to hit Ivan with Imperio. It bounces right back, > giving the spellcaster a splitting headache. Apparently, defense by sheer > bloody-mindedness > > OK, Imperio is Spanish for Empire, but I need more HP background to > understand your point. > The Imperius Curse (the command form is Imperio) is a mind-control spell. It takes over someone's will/self. It is considered one of the three "Unforgivable" curses: the control curse: Imperius ("Imperio!") the torture curse: Cruciatus ("Crucio!") the killing curse: ("Avada Kedavra!") This Wiki https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Unforgivable_Curses gives full details for the research minded BJ From kawyle at att.net Wed Mar 9 14:16:06 2022 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 14:16:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Tsipis, Dr. Professora Helen Vorthys, Miles and Ekaterine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1749587418.52159.1646835366218@mail.yahoo.com> Fanfic authors here, take note! Karen A. Wyle On Wednesday, March 9, 2022, 08:42:46 AM EST, WalterStuartBushell wrote: [snip]I think Dr. Professora Helen Vorthys knew more about what was going on between Miles and Ekaterine than either of the latter. I?d like to read her diary entries about this romance. From mathews55 at msn.com Wed Mar 9 14:31:44 2022 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 14:31:44 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One thing stands out clearly, especially in Captain Vorpatril's Alliance, where we finally se inside his head: Ivan is a concrete thinker, surrounded by people who juggle abstractions like jugglers' knives. Abstractions which roll right off Ivan's back and/or irritate him no end. He likes people who get to the point and use their common sense, which is severely lacking in some of those around him. (Ahem... Miles....?) He is also a logistical genius. I think the one person on the Vorkosigan scene who can appreciate this in him is Mark. Even his mother gently mocks him for his penchant for flowcharts. However, in his private life, yes, he's been pretty much the eternal adolescent; and you'll notice his sense of honor is that of a young man who was good at sports. You don't let the team down. Some things are just not right. You stand up for your own, even when they've screwed the pooch so spectacularly that anybody else would be up for a treason trial and/or a long term in the brig. And you keep your word. Which makes him a very good candidate for keeping his head when all around him are losing theirs. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of WalterStuartBushell Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 6:59 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Memory Ch 16 > On Mar 9, 2022, at 8:33 AM, Howard Brazee wrote: > > He needed to grow up before marrying. He just never met the right woman; perhaps he was looking for non Vor genetics like Gregor. He does have a pattern of making right decisions for reasons of which he is unconscious. ? MD. MS. in Law Robert Lustig ?If there?s a label on the food, it?s a warning label. That means it has been processed. Real food doesn?t need a label.? -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From fishman at panix.com Wed Mar 9 15:15:02 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2022 15:15:02 +0000 Subject: [LMB] LMB] Memory Ch 4 In-Reply-To: <6A15C9E0-E73D-4610-8CA8-879DFD68F866@panix.com> References: <72934E2D-6D1A-400E-BBF3-B723A3F81A8E@comcast.net> <6A15C9E0-E73D-4610-8CA8-879DFD68F866@panix.com> Message-ID: Computer Shopper or Byte? Anyway, Computer Shopper had no problem with advertising; it was 98% advertisements. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "WalterStuartBushell" To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 2/25/2022 11:03:46 AM Subject: Re: [LMB] LMB] Memory Ch 4 > > >> On Feb 25, 2022, at 1:59 AM, Robert Woodward wrote: >> >> According to a co-worker of mine of about 40 years ago, about 20 years before, several technicians at a Boeing Laboratory asked Jerry Pournelle?s boss (he was working at Boeing in the early 1960s) to order him to stay away from their equipment because they were tired of repairing it. This, BTW, is an example of the Palli effect, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_effect >. > > >I read Pournell?s writing in ?Computer Shopper?, ?Chaos Manor? about his computer problems. > >It was pointed out that his writing served its purpose. It seems that to get favorable postage rates, >a magazine must have a certain percentage of editorial not ad material. He was having such problems >with his Wintel confusers. > >That said he did do some good co-authoring with Larry Niven. > >? >MD. MS. in Law Robert Lustig ?If there?s a label on the food, it?s a warning >label. That means it has been processed. Real food doesn?t need a label.? > > > > > > >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From saffronrose at me.com Wed Mar 9 16:15:12 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 08:15:12 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 9, 2022, at 5:52 AM, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > ? > >> On Mar 8, 2022, at 7:27 PM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote: >> >> There are a lot of retail sites with ineffectual search functions: try to *eliminate* something, and you?ll get only that. Ask for something very specific and you might as well not have narrowed the search at all. >> >> Grrr. > > Well the site works for their purposes not yours. If losing customers or potential customers is seen as a positive purpose or goal, I?m not the only one who?s contributing to that goal of dubious quality. Marina From proto at panix.com Wed Mar 9 16:49:40 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 11:49:40 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1DB0E55C-65D3-4BD2-84BB-5919AE15AFF6@panix.com> > On Mar 9, 2022, at 11:15 AM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > If losing customers or potential customers is seen as a positive purpose or goal, I?m not the only one who?s contributing to that goal of dubious quality. > > Marina, The executives may have other goals in mind, for example, keeping certain persons employed, cutting down IT expenses down, getting kickbacks from IT vendors and dog nose what else. A certain redeemable for merchandise stamp company to a suggestion to rationalize purchases of such merchandise to remove a certain heavy for value product from it catalog. (You got the stamps as a rebate when buying stuff and pasted them in little booklets which could be exchanged for stuff from their catalog.) ? MD. MS. in Law Robert Lustig ?If there?s a label on the food, it?s a warning label. That means it has been processed. Real food doesn?t need a label.? From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 17:12:31 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 12:12:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] One thing about Ivan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 5:47 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Gwynne: Ivan was the Viable Alternative from the moment he was born. > And he lived most of his first thirty years in Vorbarr Sultana - heart of > the > Empire and yet he was never involved in anything. Gregor fell for > Vordrozda, but Ivan, the not-so-idiot, never did. > > And nobody noticed, or gave him credit. Ivan did his job so well and so > quietly that nobody thought about it at all. > > And... ok, I'm shameless: > https://archiveofourown.org/works/153447 > > -- > You have nothing to be ashamed of, except for the cheap wine. *whines at you* Sylvia From lmb at matija.com Wed Mar 9 17:09:11 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 17:09:11 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Focus and Illan In-Reply-To: <000B0DC7-51DA-46F9-A52C-834AEF74C21C@panix.com> References: <000B0DC7-51DA-46F9-A52C-834AEF74C21C@panix.com> Message-ID: On 09/03/2022 13:48, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > In Vernor Vinge?s _A Deepness in the Sky_: > > A group for the Emergents induce obsession with a single idea or specialty, which they call Focus, > essentially turning people into brilliant appliances. Many Qeng Ho another group become Focused > against their will. > > Seems similar to what happens to Illyan. I love "The Deepness in the Sky", but I disagree. Focus affected free will, and made people concentrate only on what the controllers of focus wanted them to concentrate on. Illyan's implant did not affect his free will (until it malfunctioned), and even when it malfunctioned, it didn't so much affect his free will as overwhelm him with intrusive memories. It is, in a way, like the difference between putting blinders on a horse (to make it pull steadily), and frightening it with a series of firecrackers. Both affect the mind, but one concentrates in on the desired task (desired by the controller), while the other just distracts, aiming to take control away. From cjbotteron at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 17:27:55 2022 From: cjbotteron at gmail.com (Carol Botteron) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 12:27:55 -0500 Subject: [LMB] One thing about Ivan (Filk?) Message-ID: Lots of good info about Ivan. Has anyone committed a filk of "Ivan, You Idiot" in which he lists his accomplishments, but he gets called an idiot anyway, and maybe that's not all bad? The tune of "I'm Called Little Buttercup" would work. From saffronrose at me.com Wed Mar 9 21:30:50 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 13:30:50 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: <1DB0E55C-65D3-4BD2-84BB-5919AE15AFF6@panix.com> References: <1DB0E55C-65D3-4BD2-84BB-5919AE15AFF6@panix.com> Message-ID: <9823C209-88AE-4C5C-8392-6295B508DF43@me.com> On Mar 9, 2022, at 8:49 AM, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > >> On Mar 9, 2022, at 11:15 AM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote: >> >> If losing customers or potential customers is seen as a positive purpose or goal, I?m not the only one who?s contributing to that goal of dubious quality. >> >> Marina, > > The executives may have other goals in mind, for example, keeping certain persons employed, cutting down IT expenses > down, getting kickbacks from IT vendors and dog nose what else. > > A certain redeemable for merchandise stamp company to a suggestion to rationalize purchases of such merchandise > to remove a certain heavy for value product from it catalog. > > (You got the stamps as a rebate when buying stuff and pasted them in little booklets which could be exchanged > for stuff from their catalog.) S&H Green and Blue Chip stamps, I think. From my childhood. So they?re playing a game in which I rarely play, and am thus (as often) not in the target demographics. I can?t use most grocery coupons because most of them are prepared foods I don?t like, pet supplies, or things I just don?t use/need. I buy most of my food from the outer perimeter, and the frozen section. If there?s coupons for the booze I buy, I?m completely blind to them. Sales yes, coupons are wasted on me?for groceries, that is. Other stores exist for for which I am more likely a successful target demographic. King Arthur Baking Co. sent me a note about a sale . . . A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From howard at brazee.net Wed Mar 9 21:37:38 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2022 14:37:38 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: <9823C209-88AE-4C5C-8392-6295B508DF43@me.com> References: <1DB0E55C-65D3-4BD2-84BB-5919AE15AFF6@panix.com> <9823C209-88AE-4C5C-8392-6295B508DF43@me.com> Message-ID: <1B137EE7-DEA4-4B88-B55C-F1EB0924CA10@brazee.net> > On Mar 9, 2022, at 2:30 PM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > S&H Green and Blue Chip stamps, I think. From my childhood. My childhood too. > > So they?re playing a game in which I rarely play, and am thus (as often) not in the target demographics. > > I can?t use most grocery coupons because most of them are prepared foods I don?t like, pet supplies, or things I just don?t use/need. I buy most of my food from the outer perimeter, and the frozen section. If there?s coupons for the booze I buy, I?m completely blind to them. > > Sales yes, coupons are wasted on me?for groceries, that is. Other stores exist for for which I am more likely a successful target demographic. King Arthur Baking Co. sent me a note about a sale . . Now, the coupons are often digital, and they will get more and more focused upon different customers based upon what they buy. That?s why grocery stores offer discounts to get people to use their favored customer cards when they buy, it works for On-line customers, so why not grocery stores. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Mar 10 05:23:41 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 05:23:41 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 17 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They have a conference: Miles is the only one below the rank of Colonel. No. He's not below them in rank. Or above them. He's outside their chain of command entirely, and has to remember that. And he has one advantage right away; he's used to colonels and admirals, but they've probably never worked with an Auditor before. Doctors, biocyberneticist, tech support. They have all the terminology. The spokes-goat (I love that term) starts to rattle off all the test they've done, all the negatives. Miles asks for the positives. Er.... nothing? At least they still have the owner's manual for the chip. It's the organic parts of the chip that are breaking down. Simon still has a normal memory system. And there's no way to access the chip, no way to download it. Simon is apparently the only person who was able to stay sane and use the chip - he's pretty amazing. I suppose if they'd been able to figure out what was special about him, they'd have been able to have a lot more people with chip-memories. (Um... did the planet that invented this give up, or did they actually figure it out? Are there more of them out there?) They have some possible ways to download the chip memories - but the doctors wince a lot and sort of mumble as they suggest them. And if you take the chip out it's programmed to self-destruct. It can't be removed. It can't be fixed while it's in place. It can't be downloaded. It's irretrievably breaking down. And, sadly, the docs are more focussed on saving the chip or the data than on saving Illyan. And they really have no idea what removing the chip would do to him. It's a whole lot of don't-know at this meeting. If this is an example of the way they've been working, it's no wonder nothing is being done. If they do nothing, and just watch it self-destruct, Simon will be dead from exhaustion, or totally insane. So why haven't they removed it? Orders. Orders to save the data. Not to save Illyan, just the data. But how vital is the data (Miles really is asking questions that nobody has asked so far. And they're not really all that hard.) Anything important is backed up. Anything secret is either known by others as well, or too old and secret to be used, useful or needed any longer. It was actually never vital for running ImpSec. It was useful, and gave Simon an edge and a reputation, but it's not actually all that important. So... my Lord Auditor, what do you want them to do? Assemble a team to remove the chip. When does he want them to start? He wants them to be finished in two hours. (Welcome to Forward Momentum, boys.) Report to Gregor. Yes, get the chip out (this conversation should have happened weeks ago.) Report to Haroche. He's a bit more polite; he's finally read all of Miles's (or Naismith's) records. Not a full study - that'd take a week. Miles really has achieved a LOT in his short career. Haroche had wanted to avoid removing the chip, it's so final. For a man of action, brusque and matter-of-fact, at a high level in a dangerous business, he really lacks action with that. Just hanging around waiting. And waiting. (I really wish I could remember when I started screaming 'It's HIM!!! Haroche!!! While I was reading. I wonder how much I missed on the first read through.) Haroche hasn't gone to the clinic. (Remind me: what are the rules about using bad words on this board? Because I really want to use some when I mention Haroche.) Miles strongly suggests Simon has someone with him. Someone familiar. Lady Alys. Haroche objects - she's a GIRL. She can't do oaths (meaning you can't trust her? Really you twit? She works daily at the RESIDENCE, reports directly to the Emperor. Runs the whole social scene there, which is also the political scene. She knows more secrets than you do, you ... ok, bad words deleted.) Miles basically says do it or I'll order it - but she'll be running the Imperial wedding, you're going to be working with her a LOT. And she's basically THE High Vor. And, at least for now, High Vor run Vorbarr Sultana. Haroche splutters a bit. How did Simon cope with it all, he's just a prole too. Well, Simon seemed to see it all as a show. And he felt that he'd had a hand in keeping it going, a sort of proprietory interest. An artist, rather than a servant. Yes, Haroche, pay attention and learn. Miles is trying to help you, you idiot. So he calls Alys and asks her nicely if she'll come and visit Simon. She can be ready in fifteen minutes - which is EPIC. Oh, and she thanks him .... and Miles. Oh yes, she's sharp. Haroche (I hate him) wonders how someone so smart produced Ivan. THINK you twit. Look below the surface for a change. Haroche gives a lovely little speech about how he didn't ask for this job but he wants to do it well, even if he's just a rough old soldier who's not as smooth as Simon. (Wonder how long he rehearsed that. I'll bet he used it on Gregor too.) Ivan's holding it together in the infirmary - just barely. He's not worried about his mother doing the job instead - she's tough. (He doesn't have any protective instincts towards her, obviously, but then she's spent his whole lifetime showing no vulnerability, and being superior to him at all times. You reap what you sow.) Miles waits while Simon cycles through a handful of different ages and stages, until he gets the Simon of right now. Tells him they're going to remove the chip. He doesn't really get informed consent, but he's managed to tell him. And Miles has his proxy vote. Miles does a quick handover to Alys. The doctors note that Simon's blood pressure dropped when Alys arrived. Surgery is planned for two days ahead. They're bringing in the best man - and Miles is adding someone to their team. Now he just has to tag-team Alys at Simon's bedside for two days. Agonising. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Mar 10 05:31:37 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 05:31:37 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 17 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So, Miles gets them moving. They've all been frozen, doing so little, finding nothing but negatives, focussed on downloading useless information from the chip. And nothing that Miles asked or decided was all that novel and ground-breaking; someone should have been asking those questions and making those decisions days, weeks, ago. We get the 'I'm just a rough prole soldier but I want to do a great job' speech from Haroche - but he's done a lousy job with Simon. He really should have been getting things done faster. So... who can remember when they knew it was Haroche? Haroche's attitude to Alys, and women - not a good omen for his future in the job. He's been Domestic Affairs head in Vorbarr Sultana for years, in Vorbarr Sultana, but he has very little idea of how things work. Is he really the man for the job? Duv would be better - he has far more insight. Side note: Duv. Is he going to end up as Counsellor of Komarr? Or as head of ImpSec? Or one after the other? From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Mar 10 05:54:10 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 05:54:10 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "A. Marina Fournier" If losing customers or potential customers is seen as a positive purpose or goal, I?m not the only one who?s contributing to that goal of dubious quality. Marina Gwynne: My phone company asked me to call them to arrange a time for them to install a new modem - for free - because there was a fault with the old one. It took two hours and I couldn't choose the time, I had to take what they chose. I called to make a blood donation; took less than a minute, and I could pick from a range of times and dates. It can be done! The company just has to care enough to want to do things properly and well. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Mar 10 06:06:39 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 06:06:39 +0000 Subject: [LMB] One thing about Ivan (Filk?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Carol Botteron Lots of good info about Ivan. Has anyone committed a filk of "Ivan, You Idiot" in which he lists his accomplishments, but he gets called an idiot anyway, and maybe that's not all bad? The tune of "I'm Called Little Buttercup" would work. Gwynne: Not a filk, but it's on 'Ivan, You Idiot': https://archiveofourown.org/works/211170 Ivan, the Idiot - Gwynne - Vorkosigan Saga - Lois McMaster Bujold [Archive of Our Own] Ivan is going to be an idiot. Alys looks at the baby in her arms, and sees his father?s eyes. She remembers watching the light die in those eyes, she remembers the man who held her and loved her and died simply because he carried the blood of emperors in his veins. archiveofourown.org From rgmolpus at flash.net Thu Mar 10 06:16:38 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 06:16:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 17 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1557842039.446382.1646892998384@mail.yahoo.com> Haroche really should have known more about Lady Alys if he'd been domestic Affairs chief for multiple years. Almost every conspiracy he's had to investigate would have used social gossip as part of the evidence trail - and Lady Alys (as we see in L'affair Byerly) is deep in the Gossip ocean. (i admit that this is attributable to *AUTHOR HAS A BETTER IDEA* in a later book.) On Wednesday, March 9, 2022, 11:31:53 PM CST, Gwynne Powell wrote: So, Miles gets them moving. They've all been frozen, doing so little, finding nothing but negatives, focussed on downloading useless information from the chip. And nothing that Miles asked or decided was all that novel and ground-breaking; someone should have been asking those questions and making those decisions days, weeks, ago. We get the 'I'm just a rough prole soldier but I want to do a great job' speech from Haroche - but he's done a lousy job with Simon. He really should have been getting things done faster. So... who can remember when they knew it was Haroche? Haroche's attitude to Alys, and women - not a good omen for his future in the job. He's been Domestic Affairs head in Vorbarr Sultana for years, in Vorbarr Sultana, but he has very little idea of how things work. Is he really the man for the job? Duv would be better - he has far more insight. Side note: Duv. Is he going to end up as Counsellor of Komarr? Or as head of ImpSec? Or one after the other? -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 06:41:39 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 00:41:39 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Just remembered a bit of Russian folklore that's apropos Message-ID: "Ivan, you idiot" could be a reference to a Russian folk-tale character called "Ivan Durak"---"Ivan the Fool." I first ran across him in one of the side-comics to Fables, where he meets Cinderella, Fabletown's top secret agent. (VERY long story and not really relevant. If you want clarification, I'll supply it, but it's late at night here.) According to Wikipedia, Ivan Durak is a "lucky fool" stock character, but his kindness and willingness to help others are of great use to him in his adventures. "For example, he listens to his heart rather than to his mind, and he easily forgets offence and endeavors to help others even at his own expense. His naivety, kindness, and daring help him fight villains , make friends, and win princesses ' hearts" which does sound rather like our friend. "The moral of these stories is that Ivan the Fool is rarely the fool, but is merely perceived as such by others owing to his simple nature and joviality." again, from Wikipedia. Ivan Vorpatril isn't really an idiot at all, but a highly competent officer who just happens to be greatly outshone by his overachieving cousin. I wonder---did Herself herself know about this when she created Ivan, or is it coincidence? From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Mar 10 12:21:54 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 12:21:54 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 17 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Richard Molpus Haroche really should have known more about Lady Alys if he'd been domestic Affairs chief for multiple years. Almost every conspiracy he's had to investigate would have used social gossip as part of the evidence trail - and Lady Alys (as we see in L'affair Byerly) is deep in the Gossip ocean. (i admit that this is attributable to *AUTHOR HAS A BETTER IDEA* in a later book.) Gwynne: Possibly Simon had some non-military agents who reported directly to him - I'm sure that Lady Alys did - and didn't share their identity with others. And Haroche probably hasn't read those files; he'd only just read Miles's file when Miles turned up as an auditor. And with all that Haroche had on his plate I doubt that he'd see files on some High Vor frill as a high priority. I have the impression that Haroche focussed mostly on proles. And Simon handled a lot of the High Vor side of things himself. From proto at panix.com Thu Mar 10 13:30:47 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 08:30:47 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Just remembered a bit of Russian folklore that's apropos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 10, 2022, at 1:41 AM, Eric Oppen wrote: > > I wonder---did Herself herself know about this when she created Ivan, or is > it coincidence? This type of character is common in children?s fairy tales. ? The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret. ? Terry Pratchett, The Truth From howard at brazee.net Thu Mar 10 13:46:14 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 06:46:14 -0700 Subject: [LMB] One thing about Ivan (Filk?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8BC3ABC9-F1C1-4B39-A081-EED0A6ECB86C@brazee.net> > On Mar 9, 2022, at 11:06 PM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Lots of good info about Ivan. Has anyone committed a filk of "Ivan, You > Idiot" in which he lists his accomplishments, but he gets called an idiot > anyway, and maybe that's not all bad? The tune of "I'm Called Little > Buttercup" would work. I think they expect Vor lords who do regular work to be incompetent. And they expect Vor lords to act like Vor lords. From vanlook19 at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 13:54:06 2022 From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 05:54:06 -0800 Subject: [LMB] One thing about Ivan (Filk?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ...the title to this thread just runs thru my head to the tune of "We Don't Talk About Bruno"... "One thing about Ivan-an-an Just one thing about I-vaaaaaaan"... BJ From wawenri at msn.com Thu Mar 10 13:55:28 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 13:55:28 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The user interfaces are done very badly. I had to use one a few weeks ago that included entering my address. The field could not take any special characters, that included periods. That fact wasn?t anywhere but the fine print in the manual. There was nothing on the screen. If you put in a period, say by abbreviating avenue or street, it let you fill out the rest of the form and then threw everything away and made you start over. It didn?t even say what you had done wrong. (I really wanted to put that last word in quotes.) BTW, this form was to update information that they already had. They just didn?t want to go to the trouble of putting it into a new format. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 10:54:10 PM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites From: "A. Marina Fournier" If losing customers or potential customers is seen as a positive purpose or goal, I?m not the only one who?s contributing to that goal of dubious quality. Marina Gwynne: My phone company asked me to call them to arrange a time for them to install a new modem - for free - because there was a fault with the old one. It took two hours and I couldn't choose the time, I had to take what they chose. I called to make a blood donation; took less than a minute, and I could pick from a range of times and dates. It can be done! The company just has to care enough to want to do things properly and well. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C18222fc2ba7b4373554a08da025a6c7d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637824884647597382%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=8WkJensd5FSruLwzIsm1m4nQLYgp9JqJ8Skf1AxOPgw%3D&reserved=0 From howard at brazee.net Thu Mar 10 14:42:15 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:42:15 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 17 - Comments In-Reply-To: <1557842039.446382.1646892998384@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1557842039.446382.1646892998384@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <54D52049-CF3D-4994-BE3D-4E1A223D7582@brazee.net> > On Mar 9, 2022, at 11:16 PM, Richard Molpus wrote: > > Haroche really should have known more about Lady Alys if he'd been domestic Affairs chief for multiple years. Almost every conspiracy he's had to investigate would have used social gossip as part of the evidence trail - and Lady Alys (as we see in L'affair Byerly) is deep in the Gossip ocean. > (i admit that this is attributable to *AUTHOR HAS A BETTER IDEA* in a later book.) Yes, but that?s *girl?s* gossip. Important stuff needs to be done by a male Vor. From howard at brazee.net Thu Mar 10 14:50:58 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:50:58 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 10, 2022, at 6:55 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > The user interfaces are done very badly. I had to use one a few weeks ago that included entering my address. The field could not take any special characters, that included periods. That fact wasn?t anywhere but the fine print in the manual. There was nothing on the screen. If you put in a period, say by abbreviating avenue or street, it let you fill out the rest of the form and then threw everything away and made you start over. It didn?t even say what you had done wrong. (I really wanted to put that last word in quotes.) > BTW, this form was to update information that they already had. They just didn?t want to go to the trouble of putting it into a new format. So much of that. For instance in requiring credit cards with or without spaces. My biggest irritation has expanded from computers and that is they don?t write software that recognizes the words ?noon? or ?midnight?. Since AM means before noon and PM means after noon, and midnight is between two dates, noon and midnight don?t fit computers that don?t recognize those words. From kawyle at att.net Thu Mar 10 15:03:09 2022 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 15:03:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] One thing about Ivan (Filk?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <530381727.520407.1646924589712@mail.yahoo.com> This made me cry, and also feel very thankful that Our Leader eventually rescued Ivan from that fate. Karen A. Wyle On Thursday, March 10, 2022, 01:06:54 AM EST, Gwynne Powell wrote: From: [snip] Gwynne: Not a filk, but it's on 'Ivan, You Idiot': https://archiveofourown.org/works/211170 Ivan, the Idiot - Gwynne - Vorkosigan Saga - Lois McMaster Bujold [Archive of Our Own] Ivan is going to be an idiot. Alys looks at the baby in her arms, and sees his father?s eyes. She remembers watching the light die in those eyes, she remembers the man who held her and loved her and died simply because he carried the blood of emperors in his veins. archiveofourown.org From lmb at matija.com Thu Mar 10 15:22:47 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 15:22:47 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66be615f-de25-8bc2-a4e6-bb7937d62893@matija.com> On 10/03/2022 14:50, Howard Brazee wrote: > My biggest irritation has expanded from computers and that is they don?t write software that recognizes the words ?noon? or ?midnight?. Since AM means before noon and PM means after noon, and midnight is between two dates, noon and midnight don?t fit computers that don?t recognize those words. I agree with the other ones, but the AM/PM thing is just silly. Start using the 24 hour time already. :-) From kate.soley.barton at btinternet.com Thu Mar 10 15:35:03 2022 From: kate.soley.barton at btinternet.com (kate.soley.barton) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 15:35:03 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Andrew's first anniversary Message-ID: <613A8CC3184065F4@re-prd-rgout-001.btmx-prd.synchronoss.net> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Andrew Barton, my husband and a fairly active listie, died last year on 13th March. The first anniversary of his death is this Sunday.?Kind thoughts appreciated.?Kate Barton?Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2 From proto at panix.com Thu Mar 10 15:35:18 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 10:35:18 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Focus and Illan In-Reply-To: References: <000B0DC7-51DA-46F9-A52C-834AEF74C21C@panix.com> Message-ID: <3D52AFD9-FE66-4779-B131-F6B92946D8DC@panix.com> > On Mar 9, 2022, at 12:09 PM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Focus affected free will, and made people concentrate only on what the controllers of focus wanted them to concentrate on. > > Illyan?s implant did not affect his free will (until it malfunctioned), and even when it malfunctioned, it didn't so much affect his free will as overwhelm him with intrusive memories. What do you mean by free will? Do you posit an entity in humans that can overcome the laws of physics? If so do some other animals extant or extinct other than humans have this? The _Deepness_ was chemical in nature (like alcohol, caffeine, fructose and other dangerous drugs) and Illyan was changed by neurological means an entity that can overcome the laws of physics should be capable of overcoming both. Of course, I don?t know what you mean by free will, which I consider a null concept in the realm of biology, but has meaning in social and political realms. ? It is wrong, always, everywhere, and for everyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.? ?W. K. Clifford (1845?1879), ?The Ethics? My take is belief should be proportional to the evidence. From becca7108 at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 15:39:00 2022 From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 10:39:00 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Andrew's first anniversary In-Reply-To: <622a1ab2.1c69fb81.42563.e4ccSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <622a1ab2.1c69fb81.42563.e4ccSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: hugs and condolences -Becca On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 10:35 AM kate.soley.barton via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > > Andrew Barton, my husband and a fairly active listie, died last year on 13th March. The first anniversary of his death is this Sunday. Kind thoughts appreciated. Kate Barton Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to becca7108 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From proto at panix.com Thu Mar 10 15:39:32 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 10:39:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: <66be615f-de25-8bc2-a4e6-bb7937d62893@matija.com> References: <66be615f-de25-8bc2-a4e6-bb7937d62893@matija.com> Message-ID: <3C1C6BF3-0B28-44CC-95C3-425EF80754A1@panix.com> > On Mar 10, 2022, at 10:22 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > I agree with the other ones, but the AM/PM thing is just silly. Start using the 24 hour time already. :-) Now is it 2400 hours or 0 hours? Depends on which date you cite? __ What is the difference between unethical and ethical advertising? Unethical advertising uses falsehoods to deceive the public; ethical advertising uses truth to deceive the public. Vilhjalmur Stefansson (1879 ? 1962) From howard at brazee.net Thu Mar 10 15:54:45 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 08:54:45 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: <3C1C6BF3-0B28-44CC-95C3-425EF80754A1@panix.com> References: <66be615f-de25-8bc2-a4e6-bb7937d62893@matija.com> <3C1C6BF3-0B28-44CC-95C3-425EF80754A1@panix.com> Message-ID: <7808CD66-DE90-407D-8634-E35EDC523AE3@brazee.net> > On Mar 10, 2022, at 8:39 AM, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > >> I agree with the other ones, but the AM/PM thing is just silly. Start using the 24 hour time already. :-) > > Now is it 2400 hours or 0 hours? Depends on which date you cite? I have worked with computers since 1969 wishing that the software was that smart. But I didn?t see it. Fortunately, meetings starting at midnight are rare, so people showing up on the wrong date will be rare too. From baur at chello.at Thu Mar 10 16:40:44 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:40:44 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: <3C1C6BF3-0B28-44CC-95C3-425EF80754A1@panix.com> References: <66be615f-de25-8bc2-a4e6-bb7937d62893@matija.com> <3C1C6BF3-0B28-44CC-95C3-425EF80754A1@panix.com> Message-ID: Am 10.03.2022 um 16:39 schrieb WalterStuartBushell: > > >> On Mar 10, 2022, at 10:22 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: >> >> I agree with the other ones, but the AM/PM thing is just silly. Start using the 24 hour time already. :-) > > Now is it 2400 hours or 0 hours? Depends on which date you cite? 2400h on the third is 0000 on the fourth .. just as course 360? is the same as course 000? servus markus > > __ > What is the difference between unethical and ethical advertising? Unethical advertising uses falsehoods to deceive the public; ethical advertising uses truth to deceive the public. > Vilhjalmur Stefansson (1879 ? 1962) > -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From lmb at matija.com Thu Mar 10 16:50:00 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 16:50:00 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Focus and Illan In-Reply-To: <3D52AFD9-FE66-4779-B131-F6B92946D8DC@panix.com> References: <000B0DC7-51DA-46F9-A52C-834AEF74C21C@panix.com> <3D52AFD9-FE66-4779-B131-F6B92946D8DC@panix.com> Message-ID: <4647edca-2abf-86c4-821c-9d400f2a2dde@matija.com> On 10/03/2022 15:35, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > What do you mean by free will? Do you posit an entity in humans that can overcome the laws of physics? Perhaps I am misunderstanding your argument, but it seems to me that you are saying that there is no free will because what the brain will decide to do depends on the balances of chemicals in the tissue, and could therefore be theoretically determined ahead of time. That is *my interpretation* of what you are saying, and if it is wrong, please, state more explicitly what you mean. If my interpretation is correct, then I must say that your view of the laws of physics is too Newtonian. Yes, physics allows us to predict in general what is going to happen, eventually. For large enough systems. Given a container of gas, surrounded by a vacuum, and given the exact measurement of the hole in the container, physics can predict how the pressure in the container will change. However, if I select one ATOM in that container, and ask you WHEN is that atom going to go through that hole, physics is going to do pretty poorly. For cognition, the balance between deciding between option A and option B depends on very, very small amounts of chemicals. And at that level, quantum effects make themselves felt. Quantum effects can only be analyzed statistically, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle limits you on what you can and can not know. > If so do some other animals extant or extinct other than humans have this? To the best of my knowledge, all of them. Of course, the more complex the animal, the more opportunity to amplify the quantum level effects in it's nerve system. > The _Deepness_ was chemical in nature (like alcohol, caffeine, fructose and other dangerous drugs) > and Illyan was changed by neurological means an entity that can overcome the laws of physics should be capable of overcoming both. Um, no. The violation of laws of physics is your claim. And you seem to be saying that something that had free will is so far out of the laws of physics that it could violate ALL of them, with impunity. Even if I stipulated (for the purposes of a story, say) a being that could violate something, it might be limited as to which exactly laws it can violate, and the violation might extract a (possibly very high) cost from the entity. > Of course, I don?t know what you mean by free will, which I consider a null concept in the realm of biology, > but has meaning in social and political realms. A mouse can have free will. You can supply it with stimuli that would make certain actions *more likely* but you can't guarantee it will do a given action at a given time. I never looked deeply into nematode worms (I believe those are the simplest organisms with some kind of nervous system), but I bet even they are not 100% predictable. And that would mean they do have free-ish will. In fact, one could argue that the atom mentioned above, since you can't know at the same time both where it is and how fast it is going, and though it is completely devoid of cognition (to the best of my knowledge), has free-ish will - in the sense that you can't, using the laws of physics, predict exactly what it will do, exactly when. From lmb at matija.com Thu Mar 10 16:51:43 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 16:51:43 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Andrew's first anniversary In-Reply-To: <613A8CC3184065F4@re-prd-rgout-001.btmx-prd.synchronoss.net> References: <613A8CC3184065F4@re-prd-rgout-001.btmx-prd.synchronoss.net> Message-ID: <5164c0ba-d45e-dc7e-23f5-a74a22908c7e@matija.com> On 10/03/2022 15:35, kate.soley.barton via Lois-Bujold wrote: > Andrew Barton, my husband and a fairly active listie, died last year on 13th March. The first anniversary of his death is this Sunday.?Kind thoughts appreciated.?Kate Barton?Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2 I am so very sorry to hear that. Please accept my heart-felt condolences. Matija From loisaletafundis at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 17:05:47 2022 From: loisaletafundis at gmail.com (Lois Aleta Fundis) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 12:05:47 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Andrew's first anniversary In-Reply-To: References: <622a1ab2.1c69fb81.42563.e4ccSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Becca: I'm sorry for your loss. March 13 is also a special day in my family: it was my Dad's birthday. He died on Nov. 13, 1995. It's important to remember the happy times and the love you had for them, and them for you, even on the sad anniversaries. On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 10:39 AM Becca Price wrote: > hugs and condolences > > -Becca > > On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 10:35 AM kate.soley.barton via Lois-Bujold > wrote: > > > > > > Andrew Barton, my husband and a fairly active listie, died last year on > 13th March. The first anniversary of his death is this Sunday. Kind > thoughts appreciated. Kate Barton Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2 > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to becca7108 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to loisaletafundis at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois Aleta Fundis loisaletafundis at gmail.com [image: image.png] From becca7108 at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 17:09:26 2022 From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 12:09:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Andrew's first anniversary In-Reply-To: References: <622a1ab2.1c69fb81.42563.e4ccSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Not my loss, Lois, but Kate's, although I have had several losses recently, so I'll take your condolences for them. On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 12:06 PM Lois Aleta Fundis wrote: > > Becca: I'm sorry for your loss. March 13 is also a special day in my > family: it was my Dad's birthday. He died on Nov. 13, 1995. It's important > to remember the happy times and the love you had for them, and them for > you, even on the sad anniversaries. > > On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 10:39 AM Becca Price wrote: > > > hugs and condolences > > > > -Becca > > > > On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 10:35 AM kate.soley.barton via Lois-Bujold > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Andrew Barton, my husband and a fairly active listie, died last year on > > 13th March. The first anniversary of his death is this Sunday. Kind > > thoughts appreciated. Kate Barton Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2 > > > -- > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to becca7108 at gmail.com > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to loisaletafundis at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > > -- > Lois Aleta Fundis > loisaletafundis at gmail.com > > [image: image.png] > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to becca7108 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Mar 10 17:29:50 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:29:50 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Andrew's first anniversary In-Reply-To: <613A8CC3184065F4@re-prd-rgout-001.btmx-prd.synchronoss.net> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) References: <613A8CC3184065F4@re-prd-rgout-001.btmx-prd.synchronoss.net> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 15:35:03 +0000, "kate.soley.barton via Lois-Bujold" wrote: > >Andrew Barton, my husband and a fairly active listie, died last year on 13th March. The first anniversary of his death is this Sunday.?Kind thoughts appreciated.?Kate Barton?Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2 Condolences and kind thoughts winging your way. We lost my father-in-law on Sunday, and even though it was not unexpected and he'd made it to 90, it's still a sad time. -- There is no God and Dirac is his Prophet. - Wolfgang Pauli From kawyle at att.net Thu Mar 10 17:31:30 2022 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:31:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] OT: Andrew's first anniversary In-Reply-To: References: <613A8CC3184065F4@re-prd-rgout-001.btmx-prd.synchronoss.net> Message-ID: <1883794188.585185.1646933490508@mail.yahoo.com> My sympathy and condolences to Marc and Andrew. I lost both parents in their mid-90s, and it's still very tough to deal with. Karen On Thursday, March 10, 2022, 12:30:04 PM EST, Marc Wilson wrote: On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 15:35:03 +0000, "kate.soley.barton via Lois-Bujold" wrote: > >Andrew Barton, my husband and a fairly active listie, died last year on 13th March. The first anniversary of his death is this Sunday.?Kind thoughts appreciated.?Kate Barton?Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2 Condolences and kind thoughts winging your way. We lost my father-in-law on Sunday, and even though it was not unexpected and he'd made it to 90, it's still a sad time. -- There is no God and Dirac is his Prophet.? ? - Wolfgang Pauli -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Mar 10 17:33:43 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:33:43 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 05:54:10 +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: >From: "A. Marina Fournier" > >If losing customers or potential customers is seen as a positive purpose or goal, I?m not the only one who?s contributing to that goal of dubious quality. >Marina > >Gwynne: My phone company asked me to call them to arrange a time >for them to install a new modem - for free - because there was a fault >with the old one. It took two hours and I couldn't choose the time, I >had to take what they chose. > >I called to make a blood donation; took less than a minute, and I could >pick from a range of times and dates. > >It can be done! The company just has to care enough to want to do things >properly and well. The key difference is that the phone company is much less bothered about losing a customer than the blood service is about losing donors. -- On this day long ago, a child was born who, by age 30, would transform the world. Happy Birthday Isaac Newton b. Dec. 25, 1642. - Neil deGrasse Tyson From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Mar 10 17:38:32 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:38:32 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:50:58 -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: > > >> On Mar 10, 2022, at 6:55 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >> >> The user interfaces are done very badly. I had to use one a few weeks ago that included entering my address. The field could not take any special characters, that included periods. That fact wasn?t anywhere but the fine print in the manual. There was nothing on the screen. If you put in a period, say by abbreviating avenue or street, it let you fill out the rest of the form and then threw everything away and made you start over. It didn?t even say what you had done wrong. (I really wanted to put that last word in quotes.) >> BTW, this form was to update information that they already had. They just didn?t want to go to the trouble of putting it into a new format. > >So much of that. For instance in requiring credit cards with or without spaces. > >My biggest irritation has expanded from computers and that is they don?t write software that recognizes the words ?noon? or ?midnight?. Since AM means before noon and PM means after noon, and midnight is between two dates, noon and midnight don?t fit computers that don?t recognize those words. I user a parcel service broker recently, to do a (paid) Amazon return. For reasons, I had to try booking it on my phone. It let me choose the return address from an address picker. And then refused to accept it because the lines were too long, or edit it. Had to go with a different service. -- On this day long ago, a child was born who, by age 30, would transform the world. Happy Birthday Isaac Newton b. Dec. 25, 1642. - Neil deGrasse Tyson From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Mar 10 17:39:52 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:39:52 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: <66be615f-de25-8bc2-a4e6-bb7937d62893@matija.com> References: <66be615f-de25-8bc2-a4e6-bb7937d62893@matija.com> Message-ID: <3tdk2h154i0kr0f7huer312fbcouqnq1ki@4ax.com> On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 15:22:47 +0000, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: >On 10/03/2022 14:50, Howard Brazee wrote: >> My biggest irritation has expanded from computers and that is they don?t write software that recognizes the words ?noon? or ?midnight?. Since AM means before noon and PM means after noon, and midnight is between two dates, noon and midnight don?t fit computers that don?t recognize those words. >I agree with the other ones, but the AM/PM thing is just silly. Start >using the 24 hour time already. :-) *By convention*, and based on the Principle of Least Surprise, Midnight is 12am and midday is 12pm. It's arbitrary, in a sense, but that's how it is. -- On this day long ago, a child was born who, by age 30, would transform the world. Happy Birthday Isaac Newton b. Dec. 25, 1642. - Neil deGrasse Tyson From litalex at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 18:34:47 2022 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 13:34:47 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Andrew's first anniversary In-Reply-To: <622a1ab0.1c69fb81.6ea8b.6073SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <622a1ab0.1c69fb81.6ea8b.6073SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <6B08705D-C3F6-4954-AA40-798229E6F049@gmail.com> Hello, > On Mar 10, 2022, at 10:35, kate.soley.barton via Lois-Bujold wrote: > Andrew Barton, my husband and a fairly active listie, died last year on 13th March. The first anniversary of his death is this Sunday. Kind thoughts appreciated. Kate Barton Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2 My condolences. Kind thoughts already on their way. little Alex From howard at brazee.net Thu Mar 10 19:54:42 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 12:54:42 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: <3tdk2h154i0kr0f7huer312fbcouqnq1ki@4ax.com> References: <66be615f-de25-8bc2-a4e6-bb7937d62893@matija.com> <3tdk2h154i0kr0f7huer312fbcouqnq1ki@4ax.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 10, 2022, at 10:39 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > *By convention*, and based on the Principle of Least Surprise, Midnight > is 12am and midday is 12pm. It's arbitrary, in a sense, but that's how > it is. Why is that ?Least Surprise?? From howard at brazee.net Thu Mar 10 19:57:33 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 12:57:33 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: <3tdk2h154i0kr0f7huer312fbcouqnq1ki@4ax.com> References: <66be615f-de25-8bc2-a4e6-bb7937d62893@matija.com> <3tdk2h154i0kr0f7huer312fbcouqnq1ki@4ax.com> Message-ID: <8020E007-6FF1-439B-AD08-3240FEB9EEA3@brazee.net> > On Mar 10, 2022, at 10:39 AM, Marc Wilson > wrote: > > *By convention*, and based on the Principle of Least Surprise, Midnight > is 12am and midday is 12pm. It's arbitrary, in a sense, but that's how > it is. Why is that ?Least Surprise?? I know a lot more people who are still up at midnight (being part of the long afternoon of the previous day), than who are already up at midnight (making it the early morning of the next day). From egern at protonmail.com Thu Mar 10 20:03:40 2022 From: egern at protonmail.com (tidsel) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 20:03:40 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Andrew's first anniversary Message-ID: Good thoughts go with you. Those days are hard. Sent with ProtonMail secure email. ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, March 10th, 2022 at 4:35 PM, kate.soley.barton via Lois-Bujold wrote: > Andrew Barton, my husband and a fairly active listie, died last year on 13th March. The first anniversary of his death is this Sunday. Kind thoughts appreciated. Kate Barton Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2 > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to egern at protonmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From wawenri at msn.com Thu Mar 10 20:25:39 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 20:25:39 +0000 Subject: [LMB] One thing about Ivan (Filk?) In-Reply-To: <530381727.520407.1646924589712@mail.yahoo.com> References: <530381727.520407.1646924589712@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: So, Ivan?s life was saved by a half Cetagandan girl who didn?t want to live up to her mother?s expectations. She wanted to dance because she liked to dance. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Karen A. Wyle Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 8:03:09 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] One thing about Ivan (Filk?) This made me cry, and also feel very thankful that Our Leader eventually rescued Ivan from that fate. Karen A. Wyle On Thursday, March 10, 2022, 01:06:54 AM EST, Gwynne Powell wrote: From: [snip] Gwynne: Not a filk, but it's on 'Ivan, You Idiot': https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farchiveofourown.org%2Fworks%2F211170&data=04%7C01%7C%7C93093c80b9c644c00f0408da02a71ed1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637825214053077037%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=6iBTfoh%2FERWFO5qUur6aeoEerwSQlDhglkg8FAHykrw%3D&reserved=0 Ivan, the Idiot - Gwynne - Vorkosigan Saga - Lois McMaster Bujold [Archive of Our Own] Ivan is going to be an idiot. Alys looks at the baby in her arms, and sees his father?s eyes. She remembers watching the light die in those eyes, she remembers the man who held her and loved her and died simply because he carried the blood of emperors in his veins. archiveofourown.org -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C93093c80b9c644c00f0408da02a71ed1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637825214053077037%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=2UHrw%2BKSM9dAlFxrsyKco2EJus9rlIF8CbNbVwej4EI%3D&reserved=0 From wawenri at msn.com Thu Mar 10 20:38:09 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 20:38:09 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Focus and Illan In-Reply-To: <3D52AFD9-FE66-4779-B131-F6B92946D8DC@panix.com> References: <000B0DC7-51DA-46F9-A52C-834AEF74C21C@panix.com> <3D52AFD9-FE66-4779-B131-F6B92946D8DC@panix.com> Message-ID: I disagree with your conclusion that there?s no free will or that our decisions are controlled by brain chemistry. However, I agree that there?s no way to prove it. When Miles went for two falls out of three, he could have just been following his brain chemistry. If so, there are no hero?s and no villains. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of WalterStuartBushell Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 8:35:18 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Focus and Illan > On Mar 9, 2022, at 12:09 PM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Focus affected free will, and made people concentrate only on what the controllers of focus wanted them to concentrate on. > > Illyan?s implant did not affect his free will (until it malfunctioned), and even when it malfunctioned, it didn't so much affect his free will as overwhelm him with intrusive memories. What do you mean by free will? Do you posit an entity in humans that can overcome the laws of physics? If so do some other animals extant or extinct other than humans have this? The _Deepness_ was chemical in nature (like alcohol, caffeine, fructose and other dangerous drugs) and Illyan was changed by neurological means an entity that can overcome the laws of physics should be capable of overcoming both. Of course, I don?t know what you mean by free will, which I consider a null concept in the realm of biology, but has meaning in social and political realms. ? It is wrong, always, everywhere, and for everyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.? ?W. K. Clifford (1845?1879), ?The Ethics? My take is belief should be proportional to the evidence. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C350c28950f564167845608da02ab9c8d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637825233346362611%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=myfvzHc8R6lG1wjsBu6DWrqzzr5Nm0xPHLZig6lCsvw%3D&reserved=0 From howard at brazee.net Thu Mar 10 21:04:14 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 14:04:14 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Focus and Illan In-Reply-To: References: <000B0DC7-51DA-46F9-A52C-834AEF74C21C@panix.com> <3D52AFD9-FE66-4779-B131-F6B92946D8DC@panix.com> Message-ID: <3BAE009E-7EB5-446C-A888-9C9626877C42@brazee.net> > On Mar 10, 2022, at 1:38 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > I disagree with your conclusion that there?s no free will or that our decisions are controlled by brain chemistry. > However, I agree that there?s no way to prove it. When Miles went for two falls out of three, he could have just been following his brain chemistry. If so, there are no hero?s and no villains. Brain chemistry is a part of our personalities. But that?s *part* of our free will and who we are. Experiences matter too. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 21:38:15 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 15:38:15 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Andrew's first anniversary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's hard to lose a lifelong companion. I feel for your loss, just know he's still in your heart. On Thu, Mar 10, 2022, 2:03 PM tidsel via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > Good thoughts go with you. Those days are hard. > > Sent with ProtonMail secure email. > > ------- Original Message ------- > > On Thursday, March 10th, 2022 at 4:35 PM, kate.soley.barton via > Lois-Bujold wrote: > > > Andrew Barton, my husband and a fairly active listie, died last year on > 13th March. The first anniversary of his death is this Sunday. Kind > thoughts appreciated. Kate Barton Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2 > > > > -- > > > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to egern at protonmail.com > > > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From hedwig52 at comcast.net Thu Mar 10 21:52:08 2022 From: hedwig52 at comcast.net (Hedwig Hoover) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 16:52:08 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Andrew's first anniversary In-Reply-To: <613A8CC3184065F4@re-prd-rgout-001.btmx-prd.synchronoss.net> References: <613A8CC3184065F4@re-prd-rgout-001.btmx-prd.synchronoss.net> Message-ID: Hugs and good wishes for you. Hedwig (also widowed in my 30s) On 3/10/2022 10:35 AM, kate.soley.barton via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Andrew Barton, my husband and a fairly active listie, died last year on 13th March. The first anniversary of his death is this Sunday.?Kind thoughts appreciated.?Kate Barton?Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2 -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From matt.msg at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 22:18:00 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:18:00 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Focus and Illan In-Reply-To: <3BAE009E-7EB5-446C-A888-9C9626877C42@brazee.net> References: <000B0DC7-51DA-46F9-A52C-834AEF74C21C@panix.com> <3D52AFD9-FE66-4779-B131-F6B92946D8DC@panix.com> <3BAE009E-7EB5-446C-A888-9C9626877C42@brazee.net> Message-ID: The Focused couldn't even feed themselves, because their entire attention had been locked onto a specific narrow topic. There really aren't any similarities between Illyan's memory implant and Focusing, except both involve human neurology. Everything else is different. From saffronrose at me.com Thu Mar 10 23:00:13 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 15:00:13 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 10, 2022, at 9:34 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > ?On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 05:54:10 +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote: > >> From: "A. Marina Fournier? >> >> If losing customers or potential customers is seen as a positive purpose or goal, I?m not the only one who?s contributing to that goal of dubious quality. >> Marina >> >> Gwynne: My phone company asked me to call them to arrange a time >> for them to install a new modem - for free - because there was a fault >> with the old one. It took two hours and I couldn't choose the time, I >> had to take what they chose. >> >> I called to make a blood donation; took less than a minute, and I could >> pick from a range of times and dates. >> >> It can be done! The company just has to care enough to want to do things >> properly and well. > > The key difference is that the phone company is much less bothered about > losing a customer than the blood service is about losing donors. The phone companies don?t give you edible cookies, either. Gave blood on the third of this month. Brought one of my Sumo citrus. Since losing the last set of weight, I?m wiped for another day afterward. Hate that, but plan for it. I ate my orange (2 exchanges, given the size) and two cookies (one carb each), with water, as all the juice has HFCS, aside from me not liking them. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Thu Mar 10 23:06:47 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 15:06:47 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: energy etc request Message-ID: My belle-m?re Edna (91, in dementia) just fell and may have broken her hip. Kurt?s called an ambulance. Broken hips in seniors are not good. I?m returning from an appointment. Energy, prayers, good thoughts, towards OConnor hospital in San Jose, please. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From wembleyware at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 23:08:49 2022 From: wembleyware at gmail.com (Sharon Micenko) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 07:08:49 +0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: Andrew's first anniversary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6D35BDEA-BC72-4220-A56E-B0D862564CF4@gmail.com> Dear Kate, It?s only the 11th today, but big hugs for the 13th. May Andrew Rest In Peace. Sharon From kawyle at att.net Thu Mar 10 23:16:07 2022 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 23:16:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] OT: energy etc request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1046671316.681015.1646954167251@mail.yahoo.com> Sending all three. Karen A. Wyle On Thursday, March 10, 2022, 06:07:08 PM EST, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote: My belle-m?re Edna (91, in dementia) just fell and may have broken her hip. Kurt?s called an ambulance. Broken hips in seniors are not good. I?m returning from an appointment. Energy, prayers, good thoughts, towards OConnor hospital in San Jose, please. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Mar 10 23:41:23 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 23:41:23 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 17 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Howard Brazee > On Mar 9, 2022, at 11:16 PM, Richard Molpus wrote: > Haroche really should have known more about Lady Alys if he'd been domestic Affairs chief for multiple years. Almost every conspiracy he's had to investigate would have used social gossip as part of the evidence trail - and Lady Alys (as we see in L'affair Byerly) is deep in the Gossip ocean. > (i admit that this is attributable to *AUTHOR HAS A BETTER IDEA* in a later book.) Yes, but that?s *girl?s* gossip. Important stuff needs to be done by a male Vor. Gwynne: Well, after all, what could be important about random gossip some woman picks up at social events? From saffronrose at me.com Fri Mar 11 01:02:27 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:02:27 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In LA Fandom, there was a Newton?s birthday party at Lee & Barry Gold?s house. Red and green was the apple decor, and non-Christians could get together, as well as those whose families were far away, tedious, annoying, difficult, or toxic. Fun was had by all. BTW, the apple tree in Newton?s story is said to be not worth pursuing, as it wasn?t all that great for human consumption. Yes, I looked. Apple geek here. However, you could get a Newton Pippin, until someone breeds an apple they name Gravity. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala > On Mar 10, 2022, at 9:38 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > ?On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 07:50:58 -0700, Howard Brazee > wrote: > >> >> >>>> On Mar 10, 2022, at 6:55 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >>> >>> The user interfaces are done very badly. I had to use one a few weeks ago that included entering my address. The field could not take any special characters, that included periods. That fact wasn?t anywhere but the fine print in the manual. There was nothing on the screen. If you put in a period, say by abbreviating avenue or > street, it let you fill out the rest of the form and then threw everything away and made you start over. It didn?t even say what you had done wrong. (I really wanted to put that last word in quotes.) >>> BTW, this form was to update information that they already had. They just didn?t want to go to the trouble of putting it into a new format. >> >> So much of that. For instance in requiring credit cards with or without spaces. >> >> My biggest irritation has expanded from computers and that is they don?t write software that recognizes the words ?noon? or ?midnight?. Since AM means before noon and PM means after noon, and midnight is between two dates, noon and midnight don?t fit computers that don?t recognize those words. > > I user a parcel service broker recently, to do a (paid) Amazon return. > For reasons, I had to try booking it on my phone. It let me choose the > return address from an address picker. And then refused to accept it > because the lines were too long, or edit it. > > Had to go with a different service. > -- > On this day long ago, a child was born who, by age 30, would > transform the world. Happy Birthday Isaac Newton b. Dec. 25, > 1642. - Neil deGrasse Tyson > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to saffronrose at me.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Mar 11 01:04:00 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 01:04:00 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Andrew's first anniversary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "kate.soley.barton" Andrew Barton, my husband and a fairly active listie, died last year on 13th March. The first anniversary of his death is this Sunday.?Kind thoughts appreciated.?Kate Barton?Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2 Gwynne: It's a hard time, sending thoughts and prayers your way. From saffronrose at me.com Fri Mar 11 01:12:11 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:12:11 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: <3tdk2h154i0kr0f7huer312fbcouqnq1ki@4ax.com> References: <3tdk2h154i0kr0f7huer312fbcouqnq1ki@4ax.com> Message-ID: <826F8815-B926-4CE2-9BA9-0747BF01958F@me.com> On Mar 10, 2022, at 9:40 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > ?On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 15:22:47 +0000, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold > wrote: > >>> On 10/03/2022 14:50, Howard Brazee wrote: >>> My biggest irritation has expanded from computers and that is they don?t write software that recognizes the words ?noon? or ?midnight?. Since AM means before noon and PM means after noon, and midnight is between two dates, noon and midnight don?t fit computers that don?t recognize those words. >> I agree with the other ones, but the AM/PM thing is just silly. Start >> using the 24 hour time already. :-) > > *By convention*, and based on the Principle of Least Surprise, Midnight > is 12am and midday is 12pm. It's arbitrary, in a sense, but that's how > it is. ?Using 12:01 am and 11:59 pm is more clear IF the field lets you use minutes. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Fri Mar 11 01:15:31 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:15:31 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: Andrew's first anniversary In-Reply-To: <613A8CC3184065F4@re-prd-rgout-001.btmx-prd.synchronoss.net> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) References: <613A8CC3184065F4@re-prd-rgout-001.btmx-prd.synchronoss.net> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Message-ID: <43B45BAE-94CA-4050-8219-31EBC9D7E802@me.com> On Mar 10, 2022, at 7:35 AM, kate.soley.barton via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Andrew Barton, my husband and a fairly active listie, died last year on 13th March. The first anniversary of his death is this Sunday. Kind thoughts appreciated. Sending some now, and I?ll put it in my calendar. I hope you will have F2F the support needed on Sunday. It?s a hard milestone, but easier with sympathetic souls around you. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From saffronrose at me.com Fri Mar 11 01:48:28 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:48:28 -0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: update #1 on Edna Message-ID: <2EF13B97-ED69-4556-BD2D-1357E17D423D@me.com> ? ? ? ?Kurt says: Bad breakage of hip, cat scan underway, nurse is wonderful. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From mathews55 at msn.com Fri Mar 11 01:59:29 2022 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 01:59:29 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: update #1 on Edna In-Reply-To: <2EF13B97-ED69-4556-BD2D-1357E17D423D@me.com> References: <2EF13B97-ED69-4556-BD2D-1357E17D423D@me.com> Message-ID: A wonderful nurse is half the battle. May everything go well. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 6:48 PM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Cc: A. Marina Fournier ; Femrel Subject: [LMB] OT: update #1 on Edna ? ? ?Kurt says: Bad breakage of hip, cat scan underway, nurse is wonderful. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From maireg83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 02:40:13 2022 From: maireg83 at gmail.com (Sue Nicholson) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 15:40:13 +1300 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 at 06:33, Marc Wilson wrote: > > The key difference is that the phone company is much less bothered about > losing a customer than the blood service is about losing donors. > > I think the difference is that the phone company thinks it is doing you a favour and the blood donor service things you are doing it a favour. SueN From saffronrose at me.com Fri Mar 11 03:21:50 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 19:21:50 -0800 Subject: [LMB] One thing about Ivan (Filk?) Message-ID: ?We loved Encanto! ?We don?t talk about Bruno? reminded me of the song? We Don't Talk About That (***1/2) (Cornbelt Records, 1992, prod. Lou and Peter Berryman) presents a solid collection of originals, showcasing the artists' ascent toward their prime. The title track lampoons the baby boomers' fascination with dysfunctional family issues: "I asked my folks the other day what my shrink asked of me -- Am I the only nut... on the family tree? They said you go tell that shrink... that we're all sane and you became a nut all by yourself." A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala > On Mar 10, 2022, at 5:54 AM, B Van Look wrote: > ?...the title to this thread just runs thru my head to the tune of "We Don't > Talk About Bruno"... > > "One thing about Ivan-an-an > Just one thing about I-vaaaaaaan"... > > BJ > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to saffronrose at me.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Mar 11 03:30:53 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 03:30:53 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: update #1 on Edna In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "A. Marina Fournier" Kurt says: Bad breakage of hip, cat scan underway, nurse is wonderful. Gwynne: I'm so sorry, I hope they can find a way to make you more comfortable, and treat you properly. Maybe they can put a plate in it? I'm glad the nurse is good, that makes a world of difference. From cjbotteron at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 04:23:24 2022 From: cjbotteron at gmail.com (Carol Botteron) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 23:23:24 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Newton's Apple Tree (was OT: Websites) Message-ID: From: "A. Marina Fournier" > BTW, the apple tree in Newton's story is said to be not worth pursuing, as it wasn't all that great for human consumption. Yes, I looked. Apple geek here. > However, you could get a Newton Pippin, until someone breeds an apple they name Gravity. There is an apple tree at Trinity College, Cambridge, that was grafted from Newton's tree. https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/newtons-apple-tree-trinity-college MIT has one, likely from a later generation. From saffronrose at me.com Fri Mar 11 04:53:02 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 20:53:02 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Newton's Apple Tree (was OT: Websites) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99E4B761-07DC-40EF-A552-A2C3C70BF099@me.com> On Mar 10, 2022, at 8:24 PM, Carol Botteron wrote: > > ?From: "A. Marina Fournier" >> BTW, the apple tree in Newton's story is said to be not worth pursuing, > as it wasn't all that great for human consumption. Yes, I looked. Apple > geek here. >> However, you could get a Newton Pippin, until someone breeds an apple > they name Gravity. > > There is an apple tree at Trinity College, Cambridge, that was grafted from > Newton's tree. > https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/newtons-apple-tree-trinity-college > > MIT has one, likely from a later generation. I think that article is the source for my info Marina From proto at panix.com Fri Mar 11 11:37:15 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 06:37:15 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 17 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C3B7E7E-C147-48D0-81F6-B789DAF2C500@panix.com> > On Mar 10, 2022, at 12:23 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Haroche gives a lovely little speech about how he didn't ask for > this job but he wants to do it well, even if he's just a rough old > soldier who's not as smooth as Simon. (Wonder how > he rehearsed that. I?ll bet he used it on Gregor too.) Which is a lie outright. He already stated that it galled him to have to train Miles up and Miles know that. I should have known it was him then, but I did twig until Miles did. (First read, I read at breakneck speed and am not a mystery reader.) I mean if Miles didn?t get it, being a genius and having much more time, OK I still feel like I made an ID10T error in not picking up on it. ? ?That which doesn?t make us stronger kills us.? From proto at panix.com Fri Mar 11 11:54:31 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 06:54:31 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Focus and Illan In-Reply-To: References: <000B0DC7-51DA-46F9-A52C-834AEF74C21C@panix.com> <3D52AFD9-FE66-4779-B131-F6B92946D8DC@panix.com> <3BAE009E-7EB5-446C-A888-9C9626877C42@brazee.net> Message-ID: > On Mar 10, 2022, at 5:18 PM, Matthew George wrote: > > The Focused couldn't even feed themselves, because their entire attention > had been locked onto a specific narrow topic. > > There really aren't any similarities between Illyan's memory implant and > Focusing, except both involve human neurology. Everything else is > different. The Focused were more controlled. The chip allowed an apparent choice of what Illyan would focus upon. Aside from that and the degree of control, I see them as equivalent. Illyan had an extremely austere lifestyle. ? The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret. ? Terry Pratchett, The Truth From proto at panix.com Fri Mar 11 11:58:04 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 06:58:04 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0FBCBBB6-D745-4BB8-964D-0680A4E2EBD5@panix.com> > On Mar 10, 2022, at 6:00 PM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > The phone companies don?t give you edible cookies, either. Gave blood on the third of this month. Brought one of my Sumo citrus. But, they probably give you software cookies. ? Sig intentionally left blank. From vanlook19 at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 12:39:07 2022 From: vanlook19 at gmail.com (B Van Look) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 04:39:07 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Newton's Apple Tree (was OT: Websites) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 8:24 PM Carol Botteron wrote: > From: "A. Marina Fournier" > > BTW, the apple tree in Newton's story is said to be not worth pursuing, > as it wasn't all that great for human consumption. Yes, I looked. Apple > geek here. > > However, you could get a Newton Pippin, until someone breeds an apple > they name Gravity. > > There is an apple tree at Trinity College, Cambridge, that was grafted from > Newton's tree. > https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/newtons-apple-tree-trinity-college Wonder if it was a cidering apple? I grew up on a century farm with a significant apple orchard. There were originally 27 fruit trees, two being crabapple, two sour cherry and 1 pear. Out of 22 apple trees, only about were "eating" apples. The balance were for cider and for baking--including the two Grandma Conway, granddaughter of the original homesteaders, said were from Johnny Appleseed himself. (He was known for planting cidering apples.) Probably apocryphal, but I will say those two trees were much older and never shaped by pruning, unlike the others. BJ From wawenri at msn.com Fri Mar 11 13:10:54 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 13:10:54 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: energy etc request In-Reply-To: <1046671316.681015.1646954167251@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1046671316.681015.1646954167251@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Praying William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Karen A. Wyle Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 4:16:07 PM To: A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: energy etc request Sending all three. Karen A. Wyle On Thursday, March 10, 2022, 06:07:08 PM EST, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote: My belle-m?re Edna (91, in dementia) just fell and may have broken her hip. Kurt?s called an ambulance. Broken hips in seniors are not good. I?m returning from an appointment. Energy, prayers, good thoughts, towards OConnor hospital in San Jose, please. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C222d32d42479442d314208da02ebfd67%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637825509836635438%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=L4ygGCDqbv0%2BBSyPX4JhTBpb8ExM5PaT4s%2F1qWcgHac%3D&reserved=0 From howard at brazee.net Fri Mar 11 14:29:51 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 07:29:51 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Focus and Illan In-Reply-To: References: <000B0DC7-51DA-46F9-A52C-834AEF74C21C@panix.com> <3D52AFD9-FE66-4779-B131-F6B92946D8DC@panix.com> <3BAE009E-7EB5-446C-A888-9C9626877C42@brazee.net> Message-ID: <24DBEE30-AC46-4D9B-A8A0-09E0B20A98E9@brazee.net> > On Mar 11, 2022, at 4:54 AM, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > The Focused were more controlled. The chip allowed an apparent choice of > what Illyan would focus upon. Aside from that and the degree of control, I > see them as equivalent. Trying to figure out how the chip worked, I note that we don?t process most of what is in front of us. Our brains use shortcuts. We don?t see the gorilla between the basketball players. So I expect that a great deal of how that chip works is on the input side. Maybe Illyan was able to process it better than everybody else is that he was better able to control what got stored in the chip, and how it got organized. Good front-end processing facilitates back-end retrieval. From kcollett at hamilton.edu Sat Mar 12 02:18:12 2022 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Kathy Collett) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 21:18:12 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Newton's Apple Tree (was OT: Websites) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9573366E-A127-4AB9-8CDF-34F48107C549@hamilton.edu> On Mar 10, 2022, at 11:23 PM, Carol Botteron wrote: > > There is an apple tree at Trinity College, Cambridge, that was grafted from > Newton's tree. > https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/newtons-apple-tree-trinity-college > > MIT has one, likely from a later generation. Grafted trees really don?t have later generations. In a real sense, they are all one tree. Katherine From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Mar 12 03:37:29 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 03:37:29 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 18 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It took an extra, interminable day before the operation. Even Alys found it hard to stay there, but Miles stuck it out; doing the right thing no matter what. (It's sad that you can do the right thing, the heroic thing, a hundred times over, but one mistake and it's all over for you. Considering that Miles was encouraged, and rewarded, for his wild forward momentum, it seems almost unfair that he was punished so strongly when it went wrong one time.) Miles witnesses the surgery; he's not only Gregor's Voice, he's Gregor's eyes as well. They don't even try to stop him, he's already established that resistance is futile. And after all the angst and confusion, the surgery is short and apparently simple. Such a quick and simple act to end a legend. They expect Miles to go with the chip, but he stays with Simon. All along, Miles has focussed on Simon, rather than the chip - unlike the rest of them. After the surgery, Simon's first words are the ones he'd used before - but that same confusion doesn't follow. Simon approves of Gregor putting Miles in charge of the decision. And he's happy that Haroche is in charge. And he's tired. Three weeks of torment takes a toll. He's also struggling to cope without the chip - it must be like losing a limb. After all that misery, the operation was quick and Simon is surprisingly together; almost an anticlimax. (Why isn't Haroche there? I know he's running ImpSec, but he is absolutely absent for all of this.) Alys takes over with Simon, and Miles goes to check on his other patient: the chip. He's added someone to the team, Dr Weddell, who is actually Canaba from JW. A spot of plastic surgery and he's happy being a refugee in Barrayar. He's still obnoxious - some things never change. But he's also brilliant, so it's worth it. He recognises Admiral Naismith - what an odd place to meet Naismith - and Miles explains briefly that this is not a new identity, it's his old one. House uniform and Auditor's chain and all - Canaba puts it together fast. And he will work with and at ImpSec, but report directly to Miles. Canaba decodes that pretty fast, too. (And, to be honest, Miles isn't a stranger to being obnoxious, himself. Pot-kettle there.) Alys is with Simon. He's tracking a bit better, he likes the idea of Miles as an Auditor - it's a shame to waste all his talents, after all. (And he's not at all concerned about the lies Miles told, or the result. He doesn't regret firing Miles, and he doesn't even consider any form of revenge from him. They know each other very well, and there's so much history there.) Back at Vorkosigan House Miles takes off his uniform, removes all the medals, and puts everything away. He may never wear them again, but they'd been useful when needed. Then he looks at the Auditor's chain - well, that was fun. And useful. He should take it back, but he'll wait till the report about the chip, that'll finish things off. And it's all done. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Mar 12 03:50:57 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 03:50:57 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 18 - Comments. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This book is a series of sections; it's only on the second read that you see the full arc of the story. Angst about the report - Miles is fired - it's all over. But then...Miles struggles to cope, goes to Silvy Vale, finds some solace - so that's settled. Wait - Simon drops, Miles is temporary Auditor and gets the chip removed - all done. But wait, there's more.... now he has to solve the crime.... I love the scene were Miles brings Canaba up to speed. Canaba does catch on fast, and seems to process it all pretty quickly - maybe he doesn't care all that much, or he just takes it in so fast, or he assumes Barrayar is so weird that this seems normal. The operation is almost an anti-climax; after all the tension and torment, the operation is fast and relatively simple, Simon is awake and talking very soon afterwards, he seems surprisingly whole - sane, able to converse, remembers at least some of the past. Alys is very strong, and capable. And she's there, which is more than you can say for Haroche, who is absent from all the events. I just love to imagine her sailing in and out of ImpSec while she's visiting Simon, without a glance at the gate guards. Ha. From rgmolpus at flash.net Sat Mar 12 05:05:40 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard G. Molpus) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 05:05:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 18 - Comments. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1657736961.1743551.1647061540073@mail.yahoo.com> Canaba was brought to Barrayar via Impsec, and has probably been working with them constantly.? He and Impsec are old buddies - in the ' odd couple' sense. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 9:51 PM, Gwynne Powell wrote: This book is a series of sections; it's only on the second read that you see the full arc of the story. Angst about the report - Miles is fired - it's all over. But then...Miles struggles to cope, goes to Silvy Vale, finds some solace - so that's settled. Wait - Simon drops, Miles is temporary Auditor and gets the chip removed - all done. But wait, there's more.... now he has to solve the crime.... I love the scene were Miles brings Canaba up to speed. Canaba does catch on fast, and seems to process it all pretty quickly - maybe he doesn't care all that much, or he just takes it in so fast, or he assumes Barrayar is so weird that this seems normal. The operation is almost an anti-climax; after all the tension and torment, the operation is fast and relatively simple, Simon is awake and talking very soon afterwards, he seems surprisingly whole - sane, able to converse, remembers at least some of the past. Alys is very strong, and capable. And she's there, which is more than you can say for Haroche, who is absent from all the events. I just love to imagine her sailing in and out of ImpSec while she's visiting Simon, without a glance at the gate guards. Ha. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Sat Mar 12 05:15:55 2022 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 21:15:55 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Thoughts on _Memory_ Message-ID: <16826DF7-1E99-4126-8E0D-34C2CE0A9C31@comcast.net> I have read many mysteries over the years, however, I don?t remember spotting Haroche as the prime suspect. In retrospect, the clues are obvious. I suspect that part of the reason was that I read it in one sitting (from my records I see that I bought it on a Saturday and had finished reading it that day). BTW, I remember thinking that the investigation of crash of TWA Flight 800 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800 ) could use Professor Vorthys (and lo and behold, _Komarr_ came out 2 years later with an accident investigation featuring Vorthys). "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com From lbujold at myinfmail.com Sat Mar 12 06:11:32 2022 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 00:11:32 -0600 Subject: [LMB] now Komarr connection Thoughts on _Memory Message-ID: <92a5e718-d374-1256-056b-fe98c8e8eaa1@myinfmail.com> [LMB] Thoughts on _Memory_ Robert Woodward Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Sat Mar 12 05:15:55 GMT 2022 RW: ? BTW, I remember thinking that the investigation of crash of TWA Flight 800 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800 ) could use Professor Vorthys (and lo and behold, _Komarr_ came out 2 years later with an accident investigation featuring Vorthys). LMB:? Oh, my acquaintance with probable cause investigations long predate more recent examples.? Besides being my dad's stock-in-trade, peripherally -- preventing failures with nondestructive testing means understanding how they happen -- I have a dim memory of reading a long-ago book on the subject titled/The Probable Cause... The Truth About Air Travel Today/ -- it seems to be out of print -- oh goodness, it's still in my old reference library.? 1960.? (!)? Author Robert J. Serling.? Brother of Rod Serling, I see by the dedication which I'd never noticed before, as I hadn't opened it in decades.? Huh.? I undoubtedly filched it from my dad's library, as it's not something I'd have bought at age 11. (Rod Serling has another connection with my dad, as they both worked at WBNS-TV Channel 10 Columbus in the early 50s.) Ta, L. From douglasw at his.com Sat Mar 12 07:41:57 2022 From: douglasw at his.com (Doug Weinfield) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 02:41:57 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Quick Ivan question Message-ID: <4F88031B-28DB-4373-8C05-C294655FC110@his.com> For a fic I may write, when in canon did Ivan?s extended family stop calling him ?idiot?? Is it reasonable to assume it?s near the end of ?A Civil Campaign?, when Ivan cuts Miles short, just before the hearing before the Council of Counts? Thanks! Sent from my iPhone From lbujold at myinfmail.com Sat Mar 12 07:46:55 2022 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 01:46:55 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Quick Ivan question Message-ID: <357c4419-ee22-1900-4d46-2b3a4cf50f9f@myinfmail.com> [LMB] Quick Ivan question Doug Weinfield douglasw at his.com Sat Mar 12 07:41:57 GMT 2022 For a fic I may write, when in canon did Ivan?s extended family stop calling him ?idiot?? Is it reasonable to assume it?s near the end of ?A Civil Campaign?, when Ivan cuts Miles short, just before the hearing before the Council of Counts? LMB:? The habit trailed off gradually in Ivan's 20s, with occasional relapses.? (On both sides.) L. From proto at panix.com Sat Mar 12 11:12:24 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 06:12:24 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 18 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 11, 2022, at 10:37 PM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > (Why isn't Haroche there? I > know he's running ImpSec, but he is absolutely absent for all > of this.) Yet another clue,(YAC) for those who haven?t twigged yet. Haroche has put all the emphasis on the chip and so perforce everyone else does. The chip is useless without Illyan and can?t be saved, but Haroche makes an ultimate priority of the chip. Nobody but Vorberg in the whole circus, but Vorberg sees the elephant. Vorberg knows Miles owes him big time. Putting Vorberg in the rotation was Haroche?s second worst mistake after poisoning the chip. ?YAC?, BTW could be a useful in discussing mysteries. ? MD. MS. in Law Robert Lustig ?If there?s a label on the food, it?s a warning label. That means it has been processed. Real food doesn?t need a label.? From howard at brazee.net Sat Mar 12 13:16:13 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 06:16:13 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Thoughts on _Memory_ In-Reply-To: <16826DF7-1E99-4126-8E0D-34C2CE0A9C31@comcast.net> References: <16826DF7-1E99-4126-8E0D-34C2CE0A9C31@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0EEEFC3C-AC78-4C5C-8762-3520141A4E7A@brazee.net> > On Mar 11, 2022, at 10:15 PM, Robert Woodward wrote: > > I have read many mysteries over the years, however, I don?t remember spotting Haroche as the prime suspect. In retrospect, the clues are obvious. Were you thinking of this as being a mystery when you first read it? From howard at brazee.net Sat Mar 12 14:05:17 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 07:05:17 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Quick Ivan question In-Reply-To: <357c4419-ee22-1900-4d46-2b3a4cf50f9f@myinfmail.com> References: <357c4419-ee22-1900-4d46-2b3a4cf50f9f@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: <34737C52-1139-49D9-9887-2C13A9F0B11D@brazee.net> > On Mar 12, 2022, at 12:46 AM, Lois Bujold wrote: > > For a fic I may write, when in canon did Ivan?s extended family stop calling him ?idiot?? Is it reasonable to assume it?s near the end of ?A Civil > Campaign?, when Ivan cuts Miles short, just before the hearing before the Council of Counts? > > LMB: The habit trailed off gradually in Ivan's 20s, with occasional relapses. (On both sides.) How and when we think of our relatives of being adults goes like that (with occasional relapses). From rgmolpus at flash.net Sat Mar 12 16:08:11 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 16:08:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Quick Ivan question In-Reply-To: <357c4419-ee22-1900-4d46-2b3a4cf50f9f@myinfmail.com> References: <357c4419-ee22-1900-4d46-2b3a4cf50f9f@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: <456043151.1085515.1647101291168@mail.yahoo.com> Once Ivan was working in Ops, and doing a very good job, the family's practice would have ended once his first yearly evaluation circulated to those 'In the Know'.?? Can't be an idiot if a Major is gushing about how capable Lt. Vorpatril is... On Saturday, March 12, 2022, 01:47:08 AM CST, Lois Bujold wrote: [LMB] Quick Ivan question Doug Weinfield douglasw at his.com Sat Mar 12 07:41:57 GMT 2022 For a fic I may write, when in canon did Ivan?s extended family stop calling him ?idiot?? Is it reasonable to assume it?s near the end of ?A Civil Campaign?, when Ivan cuts Miles short, just before the hearing before the Council of Counts? LMB:? The habit trailed off gradually in Ivan's 20s, with occasional relapses.? (On both sides.) L. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Sat Mar 12 16:18:10 2022 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 08:18:10 -0800 Subject: [LMB] Thoughts on _Memory_ In-Reply-To: <0EEEFC3C-AC78-4C5C-8762-3520141A4E7A@brazee.net> References: <16826DF7-1E99-4126-8E0D-34C2CE0A9C31@comcast.net> <0EEEFC3C-AC78-4C5C-8762-3520141A4E7A@brazee.net> Message-ID: > On Mar 12, 2022, at 5:16 AM, Howard Brazee wrote: > > > >> On Mar 11, 2022, at 10:15 PM, Robert Woodward wrote: >> >> I have read many mysteries over the years, however, I don?t remember spotting Haroche as the prime suspect. In retrospect, the clues are obvious. > > Were you thinking of this as being a mystery when you first read it? When the chip failure was determined to be sabotage, the story line became a mystery. "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com From fishman at panix.com Sat Mar 12 16:20:22 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 16:20:22 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: <9A6527FE-E3A4-4B99-9614-15E75A610159@brazee.net> Message-ID: Get a Kindle!!! Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "Raymond Collins" To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 3/6/2022 3:52:40 AM Subject: Re: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 >Well, you have a point there. I should back up my dead tree books with >ebooks. And I should since Lois Mcmaster Bujold works come out in ebook >format first. But I have this problem of reading fiction on a tablet. I can >read the news, depressing as all hell, I can read scientific and historical >papers and treatise on tablets. But, when comes to fiction or novels, I >worry i might lose the story, or my device might crash. Or etc. Etc. So I'm >comfortable reading paper books with no off switches or batteries. I guess >I'm idiosyncratic about technology. I just don't trust the the device I'm >using, because, they either fail or become obsolete. > From howard at brazee.net Sat Mar 12 16:41:31 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 09:41:31 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Thoughts on _Memory_ In-Reply-To: References: <16826DF7-1E99-4126-8E0D-34C2CE0A9C31@comcast.net> <0EEEFC3C-AC78-4C5C-8762-3520141A4E7A@brazee.net> Message-ID: <32FEEB23-8242-4824-A322-2BF3A9C42F47@brazee.net> > On Mar 12, 2022, at 9:18 AM, Robert Woodward wrote: > >>> I have read many mysteries over the years, however, I don?t remember spotting Haroche as the prime suspect. In retrospect, the clues are obvious. >> >> Were you thinking of this as being a mystery when you first read it? > > When the chip failure was determined to be sabotage, the story line became a mystery. Yes, but I wasn?t thinking that way yet, because I wasn?t expecting a mystery. From rgmolpus at flash.net Sat Mar 12 17:02:04 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard G. Molpus) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 17:02:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Thoughts on _Memory_ In-Reply-To: <32FEEB23-8242-4824-A322-2BF3A9C42F47@brazee.net> References: <16826DF7-1E99-4126-8E0D-34C2CE0A9C31@comcast.net> <0EEEFC3C-AC78-4C5C-8762-3520141A4E7A@brazee.net> <32FEEB23-8242-4824-A322-2BF3A9C42F47@brazee.net> Message-ID: <1021320152.1821877.1647104524667@mail.yahoo.com> Memory was a mystery when Simon showed his first symptoms, then turned into a police procedural when Haroche became a suspect. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 10:41 AM, Howard Brazee wrote: > On Mar 12, 2022, at 9:18 AM, Robert Woodward wrote: > >>> I have read many mysteries over the years, however, I don?t remember spotting Haroche as the prime suspect. In retrospect, the clues are obvious. >> >> Were you thinking of this as being a mystery when you first read it? > > When the chip failure was determined to be sabotage, the story line became a mystery. Yes, but I wasn?t thinking that way yet, because I wasn?t expecting a mystery. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From fishman at panix.com Sat Mar 12 18:29:52 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 18:29:52 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Get a Kindle Oasis; it is waterproof. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "Gwynne Powell" To: "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 3/6/2022 7:46:21 AM Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 >Mind you, treebooks are still safer for reading in a bubble bath.G From fishman at panix.com Sat Mar 12 20:47:37 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 20:47:37 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: <9A6527FE-E3A4-4B99-9614-15E75A610159@brazee.net> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Marc Wilson" To: "LMB" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 3/7/2022 4:17:12 AM Subject: Re: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 >3. If you use the Kindle ecosystem, you can't lose books, because >they're stored in your account and can be re-downloaded, up to six >current devices. Other systems are available. Similarly Baen. Kindle and Baen are the only two services that I use to download directly to my Kindle. All others I download to my local disks first, and my local disks are continuously backed up to the cloud by Backblaze. I strongly recommend Backblaze if your ISP offers reasonable upload speeds. For $60 a year, I get unlimited uploads and quite reasonable recovery; it saved my arse several times over the years. Harvey > > From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Sun Mar 13 01:40:43 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 20:40:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [LMB] In Australia, quaddies are horse-racing bets Message-ID: So I came across this looking for something completely unrelated: in the state of Victoria in Australia, you can place quaddies. And, no, they have nothing to do with LMB. They're essentially (as far as I can tell) a horse-racing bet where you have to pick a winner in four races, not just one. https://horsebetting.com.au/types-of-bets/quaddie/ Fascinating how language can mean different things... Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Mar 13 12:53:33 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 12:53:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] In Australia, quaddies are horse-racing bets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca So I came across this looking for something completely unrelated: in the state of Victoria in Australia, you can place quaddies. And, no, they have nothing to do with LMB. They're essentially (as far as I can tell) a horse-racing bet where you have to pick a winner in four races, not just one. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhorsebetting.com.au%2Ftypes-of-bets%2Fquaddie%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7C0ba788b99e054ec491d808da04e90401%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637827696110912415%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=IVIiCSSh4%2FUKIp5Kx8m7lcJvct%2F1%2FEX0wcURrbRm44Q%3D&reserved=0 Fascinating how language can mean different things... Alayne Gwynne: I see the ads all the time, and I'd never thought about it! From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Mar 13 13:36:24 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 13:36:24 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Miles finally makes an appointment to get his head sorted out - he goes to the military hospital because they deal with more cryostuff than anyone else, and they have all his other records so it'll save a LOT of time. It's not difficult to make the appointment, it's not a relief, it's just something to do before Ivan checks up. It doesn't mean much any more. Vorkosigan House is big and empty again; it's meant to be pulsing with life, a huge glittering circus of people and action. A bit like the Dendarii, actually - Miles keeps creating his natural environment. He's also very aware of the march of generations - there's a terrible pressure on him to carry on that line. Failing to do that will be a bitter failure indeed. (And poor Ivan, he's heir to Miles AND Gregor. Maybe the reason he didn't marry and breed early is because he wasn't dumping that any of that on a son of his.) Quinn - he thinks of her a lot. He does love her - or Naismith does. But there's always a barrier; he knows she'd never be Countess Vorkosigan. But she should be Admiral of the Dendarii - he should promote her. Oh, wait - that's Haroche's decision now. And Haroche isn't all that brilliant at dealing with women. Miles wanders, through the rooms and through his memories. He visits Piotr's old suite - all renovated now. And Miles gets an Idea. Yes it's a good one - get Simon out of that place. Haroche isn't all that keen until Miles points out that Simon is going to be wandering around - and won't it be fun having Simon perambulating around ImpSec HQ while Haroche tries to become the new boss. ICK. Ok, I hate Haroche, but that's still a horrible thought. Haroche doesn't think Vorkosigan House is secure enough - SERIOUSLY? Weak objection. And is it safe... well if the chip was sabotaged it probably happened in Cockroach Central (Shiver at that comment, Haroche) so Vorkosigan House is safer. The doctor is in favour too - after all, how can anyone recover and get back to normal in that place? Oh, and Alys approves too - and goes to sort out all the things that Miles has forgotten. Simon comments that she's a 'reliable woman' which is practically a declaration of love on Barrayar. Unlike Haroche, he doesn't see women as non-persons (Is that due to Cordelia?) Simon is a generation older than Haroche, but far more aware and awake, in so many ways. (Haroche is focussed, and good at what he does - to a point. I think he's hit the Peter Principle with this last promotion.) Simon leaves ImpSec - his home and workplace for decades - with one bag. He did a brilliant job, but it really eroded the rest of his life. Alys has put a cleaning crew through the room, and dug out the new sheets, towels and soap. She does logistics way better than Miles. A Ma Kosti snack leaves them all unable to move, a card game shows that Simon has basically no short-term memory. He's still as smart as ever, but doesn't retain anything for long. Miles compares it to his amnesia after cryofreezing - it's not the same at all, Simon is still himself (and to give Miles credit here, I don't think he's trying to one-up Simon, it's just the closest comparison he has.) They chat about the betrothal ceremony, as a safe topic. Simon is interested, but asks the same questions a while later. No retention. So, Miles has a household. They sleep in as long as they like, score breakfast in the kitchens, but have more formal lunch and dinner. Duv drops by, and Allegre. Lady Alys comes frequently. Some old military friends of Simon's. Ivan. They all learn to drop by at mealtime. They've got three guards at the gate now. Miles starts the round of doctors for his own head problems. The doctors are so excited when he has a seizure right in front of them. Whoopee. At least now they know what's happening. A cure... um.... Ok, here's the irony - Simon's just got rid of his chip, now Miles is getting one. The two of them are reflections of each other. Miles gets home to find Simon in uniform, waiting to go out. Momentary panic that one of them is confused, but no - Simon is taking Alys to a concert. He did security on them for years - now he's going to find out if he enjoys them. Miles waits till 2 am for him to get back; he apparently really enjoys concerts. Oh, and good news - Cordelia is arriving in a few days. Get ready for brisk Betan problem-solving. And maternal affection, too. Miles is a bit miffed that everyone else is going crazy about Simon's chip-icide, but Simon is just trundling along enjoying himself. Then he realised that Simon is just coping well, leaving the problem to the ones who can do something about it. Then he wonders if Simon is just biding his time. Then he decides he needs more sleep. Miles's doctors want to put a chip in his brain to set the seizures off, but at the right time and in a less damaging way. Oh goodie. Can he drive? Fly? Probably. Go back to his job? Um... he should have sorted this before he was discharged... maybe if Someone pulls some strings... but it'd be desk duty. Something safe as an analyst in ImpSec HQ, working decent hours, not being promoted to higher levels, just being... ordinary. Well, it's something Miles has never tried. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Mar 13 13:44:42 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 13:44:42 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 19 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's interesting that Miles and Simon are having similar problems at the same time. Coping differently. And it really is a big ask for Miles to have a chip put IN his brain just after Simon's problems. Haroche: Why does he make such a fuss about Simon leaving ImpSec HQ? Does he want to keep total control of Simon? Take another shot at him? Or keep him away from Auditorial curiosity? Vorkosigan House is almost another character. It gradually comes back to life as Lord Vorkosigan does too. Simon is so CALM about all this, so far. Not raging, or angry, or anything. He's almost serene. Is he feeling relief? Or is he making the best of things? Or is he just waiting? Or is he so Zen that he can sail through anything without a ripple? From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Mar 13 13:47:22 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 13:47:22 +0000 Subject: [LMB] A Stray Thought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jumping off from Haroche's disregard for women... Counts are limited to twenty armsmen. Strict rule set in stone. But... there's no mention of armswomen. So what if some Count developed a standing army of trained and well-armed women? (Interesting plot bunny there. Feel free, anyone.) From baur at chello.at Sun Mar 13 14:10:40 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 15:10:40 +0100 Subject: [LMB] A Stray Thought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: i think they would take a precedent from the kitchen about such a thing .. servus markus Am 13.03.2022 um 14:47 schrieb Gwynne Powell: > > > Jumping off from Haroche's disregard for women... > > Counts are limited to twenty armsmen. Strict rule set in stone. But... > there's no mention of armswomen. So what if some Count developed > a standing army of trained and well-armed women? (Interesting plot > bunny there. Feel free, anyone.) -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Mar 13 14:20:38 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 14:20:38 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 19 - Another comment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I see so many parallels between Miles and Simon, but there's another pairing: Miles and Haroche. Haroche is going through something very similar to Miles before that final report: he has a terrible secret and is trying so hard to act normally, to keep things going; he's fighting for his place. Miles concealed a serious medical condition and lied in reports to keep Naismith and his place with the Dendarii. Haroche sabotaged his boss to get the promotion he thought he deserved. Miles did at least as much damage to Vorberg as Haroche did to Simon. They both lied to superiors. They each thought that the good they had done, and could do, justified their actions. Twins? From proto at panix.com Sun Mar 13 14:22:50 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 10:22:50 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Chekhov's gun Message-ID: <26AAA8A2-0EE6-4E34-B72D-E3ED7CB07C87@panix.com> Sometimes Chekhov?s gun is actually a gun. In CVA Tej and Rish examine Ivan?s pockets and find that his stunner is keyed to Ivan. This is a plot point where he brings Shiv?s treacherous business partner under ImpSec headquarters, when one th ?rent a meats? decides to use Ivan?s stunner rather than his own. ? MD. MS. in Law Robert Lustig ?If there?s a label on the food, it?s a warning label. That means it has been processed. Real food doesn?t need a label.? From proto at panix.com Sun Mar 13 16:38:54 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 12:38:54 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35DA97A8-C73F-438E-A99E-7FFABD6DC4DB@panix.com> > On Mar 13, 2022, at 9:36 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Oh, and Alys approves too - and goes to sort out all the things that > Miles has forgotten. Simon comments that she's a 'reliable woman' > which is practically a declaration of love on Barrayar. Unlike Haroche, > he doesn't see women as non-persons (Is that due to Cordelia?) > Simon is a generation older than Haroche, but far more aware > and awake, in so many ways. (Haroche is focussed, and good at what > he does - to a point. I think he's hit the Peter Principle with this last > promotion.) Anyway I don?t believe anything Haroche says after he poisoned Illyan, if a lie would serve better. See that do a good job and get a promotion does lead to people reaching a level of incompetence. One needs to demote the people who rise to that level or perchance promote them to a level where they are competent again or out of the loop. You have heard of ?Kicking someone upstairs?? ? It is wrong, always, everywhere, and for everyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.? ?W. K. Clifford (1845?1879), ?The Ethics? My take is belief should be proportional to the evidence. From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 18:53:35 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 14:53:35 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 17 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 6:41 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Howard Brazee > > > On Mar 9, 2022, at 11:16 PM, Richard Molpus wrote: > > Haroche really should have known more about Lady Alys if he'd been > domestic Affairs chief for multiple years.... > Yes, but that?s *girl?s* gossip. Important stuff needs to be done by a > male Vor. > > Gwynne: Well, after all, what could be important about random gossip some > woman picks up at social events? > -- > What indeed, as Miles finds out in Lady A's little letter during the Ghem-Bretten affair. By the way, Lady VorWhatzit is going to have her baby right during the vote, her husband won't be there... and babies are Women's Work, so if Haroche were running the show, he'd miss that, too. Sylvia From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 19:12:33 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 15:12:33 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 17 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 12:23 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Report to Haroche. He's a bit more polite; he's finally read all > of Miles's (or Naismith's) records. Not a full study - that'd take > a week. Miles really has achieved a LOT in his short career. > > > As he points out, Haroche is now one of the few who can look at Miles' blinged up uniform and not assume that he raided his DadTheCount's medals drawer. Sylvia From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 19:13:56 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 15:13:56 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 12:54 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Gwynne: My phone company asked me to call them to arrange a time > for them to install a new modem - for free - because there was a fault > with the old one. It took two hours and I couldn't choose the time, I > had to take what they chose. > > I called to make a blood donation; took less than a minute, and I could > pick from a range of times and dates. > I suspect that, at any given time, the number of people wanting a phone repair significantly outnumbers the number of people who want to donate blood. Sylvia From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 19:18:58 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 15:18:58 -0400 Subject: [LMB] One thing about Ivan (Filk?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 1:06 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Gwynne: Not a filk, but it's on 'Ivan, You Idiot': > https://archiveofourown.org/works/211170 > Ivan, the Idiot - Gwynne - Vorkosigan Saga - Lois McMaster Bujold [Archive > of Our Own] > Gwynne, that was so sad. From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 19:51:48 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 15:51:48 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 13, 2022 at 9:36 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > > Simon leaves ImpSec - his home and workplace for decades - with > one bag. He did a brilliant job, but it really eroded the rest of his life. > > Much like Admiral N --> Miles VorK. Who are you, when you are just being yourself? > ...a card game shows that Simon has basically no short-term memory. He's still as smart as ever, but doesn't retain anything for long. > You were wondering, upthread, why he is so calm. Hard to get (stay?) angry if you can't retain the reason you're angry. > They all learn to drop by at mealtime. They've got three guards at the > gate now. > Heh heh. The cook came because of the guard, and now they need more guards. Not direct cause & effect, but fun. > > > > From saffronrose at me.com Sun Mar 13 20:30:00 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 13:30:00 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 13, 2022, at 12:14 PM, Sylvia McIvers wrote: > > ?On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 12:54 AM Gwynne Powell > wrote: >> >> >> Gwynne: My phone company asked me to call them to arrange a time >> for them to install a new modem - for free - because there was a fault >> with the old one. It took two hours and I couldn't choose the time, I >> had to take what they chose. >> >> I called to make a blood donation; took less than a minute, and I could >> pick from a range of times and dates. >> > > I suspect that, at any given time, the number of people wanting a phone > repair significantly outnumbers the number of people who want to donate > blood. I?m afraid so?or take in non-white refugees. Marina From greg.hennessy at cox.net Mon Mar 14 00:49:35 2022 From: greg.hennessy at cox.net (Greg Hennessy) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 20:49:35 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 17 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <108c79ad-b9c7-e5a6-49ee-d14854a0c16b@cox.net> In my hard copy version of Memory, Haroche calls Vorpatril "Lieutenant" rather than Captain. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Mar 14 00:50:50 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 00:50:50 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyyy!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The birthday Tixie rushes in, muttering about the confusion of time zones. Ahem. We are here to celebrate the birthday of Judy Johnson! Judy, we hope your birthday is big, bright and full of joy. And to add to the fun you're spending the day on Komarr, as a guest of the Toscane family. There'll be a guided tour of all the oldest parts of the dome, and you'll hear about the proud history of settlement on this difficult planet. Then there's the shops - with all the best and most interesting goods from all over the Nexus. You'll also have a tour of the most promising swamps outside the domes; signs of hope that one day the planet will have a breathable atmosphere. Then there'll be a banquet with the family, dining in the best restaurant in Solstice Dome, with entertainment from the most popular singers and musicians on the planet. Their rendition of 'Happy Birthday' will be amazing! Warm birthday wishes to you, Judy! From rgmolpus at flash.net Mon Mar 14 01:12:26 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard G. Molpus) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 01:12:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 17 In-Reply-To: <108c79ad-b9c7-e5a6-49ee-d14854a0c16b@cox.net> References: <108c79ad-b9c7-e5a6-49ee-d14854a0c16b@cox.net> Message-ID: <1421443391.2105225.1647220346656@mail.yahoo.com> Miles doesn't get his promotion until the end of the book, when Gregor flips his Imperial Finger and says 'OK, you're a Captain'. Which Finger did her use? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, Mar 13, 2022 at 7:49 PM, Greg Hennessy wrote: In my hard copy version of Memory, Haroche calls Vorpatril "Lieutenant" rather than Captain. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Mar 14 01:14:44 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 01:14:44 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 17 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Sylvia McIvers What indeed, as Miles finds out in Lady A's little letter during the Ghem-Bretten affair. By the way, Lady VorWhatzit is going to have her baby right during the vote, her husband won't be there... and babies are Women's Work, so if Haroche were running the show, he'd miss that, too. Sylvia Gwynne: Haroche makes a big deal about being a rather rough risen- through-the-ranks prole. This is partly true; he's very smart and weaselly, too. But I don't think he's ever really paid much attention to the High Vor. He sees most of them as useless town clowns, and doesn't rate the women as being much use at all - just pretty decorations. This is a huge problem for someone who's going to step up to Simon's job. From mathews55 at msn.com Mon Mar 14 01:40:55 2022 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 01:40:55 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 17 In-Reply-To: <1421443391.2105225.1647220346656@mail.yahoo.com> References: <108c79ad-b9c7-e5a6-49ee-d14854a0c16b@cox.net> <1421443391.2105225.1647220346656@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oh, come on! You know which finger he used. \oIoo ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Richard G. Molpus Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2022 7:12 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Memory Ch 17 Miles doesn't get his promotion until the end of the book, when Gregor flips his Imperial Finger and says 'OK, you're a Captain'. Which Finger did her use? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, Mar 13, 2022 at 7:49 PM, Greg Hennessy wrote: In my hard copy version of Memory, Haroche calls Vorpatril "Lieutenant" rather than Captain. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 02:11:25 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 21:11:25 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 17 In-Reply-To: References: <108c79ad-b9c7-e5a6-49ee-d14854a0c16b@cox.net> <1421443391.2105225.1647220346656@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: And Vorpatril IS a Captain. Remember? From earlier in the book? On Sun, Mar 13, 2022 at 8:41 PM Pat Mathews wrote: > Oh, come on! You know which finger he used. \oIoo > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Richard G. Molpus > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2022 7:12 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [LMB] Memory Ch 17 > > Miles doesn't get his promotion until the end of the book, when Gregor > flips his Imperial Finger and says 'OK, you're a Captain'. > Which Finger did her use? > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > On Sun, Mar 13, 2022 at 7:49 PM, Greg Hennessy > wrote: In my hard copy version of Memory, Haroche calls Vorpatril > "Lieutenant" > rather than Captain. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From gretchen.m.wright at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 02:23:12 2022 From: gretchen.m.wright at gmail.com (Gretchen Wright) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 22:23:12 -0400 Subject: [LMB] A Stray Thought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lol, maybe that was Vormuir's long term plan! On Sun, Mar 13, 2022, 9:47 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Jumping off from Haroche's disregard for women... > > Counts are limited to twenty armsmen. Strict rule set in stone. But... > there's no mention of armswomen. So what if some Count developed > a standing army of trained and well-armed women? (Interesting plot > bunny there. Feel free, anyone.) > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to gretchen.m.wright at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rgmolpus at flash.net Mon Mar 14 04:16:50 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard G. Molpus) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 04:16:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 17 In-Reply-To: References: <108c79ad-b9c7-e5a6-49ee-d14854a0c16b@cox.net> <1421443391.2105225.1647220346656@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <58904959.2137392.1647231410598@mail.yahoo.com> Which means Ivan has time in grade over Miles! Finally, Ivan beats Miles at something important! Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, Mar 13, 2022 at 9:11 PM, Eric Oppen wrote: And Vorpatril IS a Captain.? Remember?? From earlier in the book? On Sun, Mar 13, 2022 at 8:41 PM Pat Mathews wrote: > Oh, come on! You know which finger he used. \oIoo > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Richard G. Molpus > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2022 7:12 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [LMB] Memory Ch 17 > > Miles doesn't get his promotion until the end of the book, when Gregor > flips his Imperial Finger and says 'OK, you're a Captain'. > Which Finger did her use? > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > >? On Sun, Mar 13, 2022 at 7:49 PM, Greg Hennessy > wrote:? In my hard copy version of Memory, Haroche calls Vorpatril > "Lieutenant" > rather than Captain. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From lmb at matija.com Mon Mar 14 09:15:40 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 09:15:40 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 17 In-Reply-To: <58904959.2137392.1647231410598@mail.yahoo.com> References: <108c79ad-b9c7-e5a6-49ee-d14854a0c16b@cox.net> <1421443391.2105225.1647220346656@mail.yahoo.com> <58904959.2137392.1647231410598@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <76b9efc4-74dc-dc00-78e6-2b6ef6394bd4@matija.com> On 14/03/2022 04:16, Richard G. Molpus wrote: > Which means Ivan has time in grade over Miles! > Finally, Ivan beats Miles at something important! And, typically, instead of admitting defeat in the game, Miles changes the game. Time in grade is meaningless because now Miles is no longer in the military, he is an auditor, which means he outranks everybody, except the council of Auditors and Gregor. From proto at panix.com Mon Mar 14 12:35:35 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 08:35:35 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 17 In-Reply-To: <76b9efc4-74dc-dc00-78e6-2b6ef6394bd4@matija.com> References: <108c79ad-b9c7-e5a6-49ee-d14854a0c16b@cox.net> <1421443391.2105225.1647220346656@mail.yahoo.com> <58904959.2137392.1647231410598@mail.yahoo.com> <76b9efc4-74dc-dc00-78e6-2b6ef6394bd4@matija.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 14, 2022, at 5:15 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > Time in grade is meaningless because now Miles is no longer in the military, he is an auditor, which means he outranks everybody, except the council of Auditors and Gregor. The Counts and Ministers in joint session or the Emperor are the onliest that can remove his auditor-ship. ? ?That which doesn?t make us stronger kills us.? From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Mar 14 13:52:16 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 13:52:16 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyy!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Today we wish Ann - known as 'quietann' - a wonderful, happy birthday. Ann, for your special day you are the guest of the haut Rian Degtiar, Empress of Cetaganda. You'll have a guided tour around the most secret and sacred parts of the Star Creche, and the rest of the dome. Amazing gardens - with flowers that turn to follow you, butterflies that form bright patterns in the air, bees that hum in harmonies, and so much more. Then there'll be a banquet of amazing foods you've never tasted before - so delicately arranged that each grain of rice is perfectly aligned, and all the other foods are so artistically presented that it's almost a shame to eat them. While you and the other haut ladies are dining, a choir will sing with celestial harmonies. As evening falls a swarm of glittering fireflies, in a sparkling rainbow of colours, will spell out 'Happy Birthday' across the sky, while the choir sing for your special day. Have a wonderful time, Ann! From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Mar 14 14:24:16 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 14:24:16 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 20 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Things slow down. More time passes, and everyone drifts towards the idea of natural chip failure. There's been no other actions, no big move taking advantage of the confusion at ImpSec. Three days before Cordelia is due, Miles decides that a break in the country would be nice. Ok, he cuts and runs. But it is nice at Vorkosigan Surleau - a good way to relax away from.... well, from all the relaxing they're doing in Vorkosigan House. Fortunately, but using Martin as bait, they entice Ma Kosti to go with them. Simon accepts the idea, but he's not all that excited about it. What to do? He's not fond of riding. And Miles can't ride, swim, hike... Simon identifies the spot where Negri died. He remembers some things, but not others - and he remembers the emotions. Because the chip didn't store them, he always had to remember the emotions. (Maybe his very laid-back Zen attitude is simply that he used the chip for factual memories, and the emotions were stored away?) Simon's first job running ImpSec was to investigate the murder of his predecessor. Whose first job was to investigate the murder of HIS predecessor - much easier because he was the one who did it. (Just step back a bit there and let all those big BIG red flags go past.) All through this chapter Miles and Simon talk so calmly and easily about shattering events; they're both so open. No resentment, no anger, no pretence. It's an interesting relationship. They decide to go fishing. Mostly drinking the local beer and chatting. They wonder what bait fish would use to catch men. What bait works on men - what motivates them? Money, power, revenge, sex... and elephants. (Just duck out of the way of the red flags flying all through this conversation.) Miles thinks about his own motivations. He decides it's identity. Not fame, really, although that is a byproduct. You are what you do, so he did - so, so much. He had to keep on doing, winning - that gave him his identity. Win or die. But... he didn't win. And he didn't die. So if he was wrong about that... what other assumptions aren't correct? Simon is getting bored with fishless fishing. Miles thinks that the Vor fishermen were really taking refuge from Vor wives. He also reassures Simon that he's improving, slowly. But Simon knows it's not enough. Once you've been at the top you can't be not-as-good. He's served a long time, and served well. It's enough. Like Miles, he's finished his military career, and has nothing in front of him. Simon's not apologetic about firing Miles, it was justified, but he wonders if Miles can entice Quinn to Barrayar (not a chance. Elli isn't Cordelia, she's not going to throw her career away for love.) He's also glad that Miles survived. (Most of Miles's nearest and dearest expected him to bolt for the Dendarii or kill himself. You can't blame them for getting it wrong - after all, Miles didn't know what Lord Vorkosigan was going to do, he hadn't met him for a long time.) And Miles admits that he'd slowed down a bit, most of his recent missions used hardly any force. Simon says that he'd just got smarter. (Hmmm.... thinking instead of throwing brute force at something.... what sort of job would use that...?) Simon's getting restless. Miles explains that the Vor had time to laze around fishing; the local proles would sneak in and bomb the fish. Simon happens to have a stunner (seriously, nobody CHECKED???) and Miles does the ImpSec-approved trick to turn the power pack into a bomb. Then counts for a bit, then drops it in the water. My favourite line in this chapter: "You'd better hope that sinks." Simon and Miles are both so chill about it. And it works, (read 'The Loaded Dog' by Henry Lawson) and they return triumphant, dump all the fish on Martin (who really has zero sense of self-preservation) and go to freshen up. And rest from their efforts. A fantastic Ma Kosti fish dinner, a quiet chat, life is so calm and relaxed. Then Martin lumbers in to tell them there's a call from some Admiral Avakli. The admiral is tense. He needs to see Miles to report his findings. Miles can't get there until midnight - and the admiral doesn't say 'That's ok, tomorrow will be fine.' No, he says 'As soon as possible' and is fine with a midnight meeting. This is not good. ..... and suddenly that relaxed pace is gone. And things are happening. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Mar 14 14:32:33 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 14:32:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 20 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is such a deceptive chapter - it's so calm, nothing much happens, no brisk action, just two men chatting in a boat. And it's the heart of everything. So many comments, so much of their discussion, is screaming with importance, but it all just ambles past, deceptively. Miles is still peeling back the layers of his psyche - and it's so interesting, watching him work towards the bedrock. Simon is taking it all so well, really - I think there's some relief in there with all the other emotions. And I love the absolutely naked honesty between Miles and Simon. Oh, and ... Martin. He's a joy. He's just a big lumbering kid, with absolutely no idea how to behave (yes, definitely the baby of the family). He's due for a real culture shock when Cordelia and her retinue arrive, and more when he gets to basic training. >From here the pebble starts rolling down the mountainside, and the avalanche gains momentum. From proto at panix.com Mon Mar 14 14:48:02 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 10:48:02 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyy!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55B7A872-C56F-4F5D-94FD-8403A932D07D@panix.com> Oh! She must see the musical frogs. > On Mar 14, 2022, at 9:52 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Today we wish Ann - known as 'quietann' - a wonderful, happy birthday. > Ann, for your special day you are the guest of the haut Rian Degtiar, > Empress of Cetaganda. You'll have a guided tour around the most secret > and sacred parts of the Star Creche, and the rest of the dome. Amazing > gardens - with flowers that turn to follow you, butterflies that form > bright patterns in the air, bees that hum in harmonies, and so much more. > > Then there'll be a banquet of amazing foods you've never tasted before - > so delicately arranged that each grain of rice is perfectly aligned, and all > the other foods are so artistically presented that it's almost a shame to > eat them. While you and the other haut ladies are dining, a choir will > sing with celestial harmonies. I should have thought the characters would be tired of us readers, but then I thought they only exist due to us and general fan base, of course, Herself couldn?t have spent the time to write aside from her readers. :) ? "We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." - Attributed to Plato From proto at panix.com Mon Mar 14 15:02:01 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 11:02:01 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 20 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0B07EAFE-DBF6-468B-8E12-FF13E40E664F@panix.com> > On Mar 14, 2022, at 10:24 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > They decide to go fishing. Mostly drinking the local beer and > chatting. They wonder what bait fish would use to catch men. > What bait works on men - what motivates them? Money, power, > revenge, sex... and elephants. (Just duck out of the way of the > red flags flying all through this conversation.) Elephant references show up in CVA. Illyan says Tej?s dad could sell elephants to circus masters. Tej reacts and say ?I think circus masters would want to buy elephants?, with some alarm and other emotions. Illyan?s ?Quite so? advances the plot for the alert reader. (Nowadays circus masters no longer use elephants on animal cruelty grounds. The future is neither what is used to be nor was it ever.) __ What is the difference between unethical and ethical advertising? Unethical advertising uses falsehoods to deceive the public; ethical advertising uses truth to deceive the public. Vilhjalmur Stefansson (1879 ? 1962) From lbujold at myinfmail.com Mon Mar 14 15:09:28 2022 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 10:09:28 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyy!!!! Message-ID: <32be9b39-8f94-0440-2477-091174da4c16@myinfmail.com> [LMB] Birthdayyyyy!!!! WalterStuartBushell proto at panix.com Mon Mar 14 14:48:02 GMT 2022 WSB:? I should have thought the characters would be tired of us readers, but then I thought they only exist due to us and general fan base, of course, Herself couldn?t have spent the time to write aside from her readers. :) LMB:? That is absolutely correct, and it's good for writers not to forget that. My comfortable life now is the result of decades of shrewd effort, sure, but all that effort would have run out into the sands without the readership. (My belief that books and their characters only exist in readers' heads, that stuff on the pages is just ink blotches, I've gone into before.? For a worked example, imagine looking at the pages of a book in a language you do not know.? No story to be had there!) Ta, L. From fishman at panix.com Mon Mar 14 15:26:01 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 15:26:01 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: <7808CD66-DE90-407D-8634-E35EDC523AE3@brazee.net> References: <66be615f-de25-8bc2-a4e6-bb7937d62893@matija.com> <3C1C6BF3-0B28-44CC-95C3-425EF80754A1@panix.com> <7808CD66-DE90-407D-8634-E35EDC523AE3@brazee.net> Message-ID: Both 12:00 AM and 12:00 PM are midnight, though on different days!! Noon is 12:00 M!!! Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "Howard Brazee" To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 3/10/2022 10:54:45 AM Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Websites > > >> On Mar 10, 2022, at 8:39 AM, WalterStuartBushell wrote: >> >>> I agree with the other ones, but the AM/PM thing is just silly. Start using the 24 hour time already. :-) >> >> Now is it 2400 hours or 0 hours? Depends on which date you cite? > >I have worked with computers since 1969 wishing that the software was that smart. But I didn?t see it. Fortunately, meetings starting at midnight are rare, so people showing up on the wrong date will be rare too. >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From howard at brazee.net Mon Mar 14 16:17:34 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 10:17:34 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: <66be615f-de25-8bc2-a4e6-bb7937d62893@matija.com> <3C1C6BF3-0B28-44CC-95C3-425EF80754A1@panix.com> <7808CD66-DE90-407D-8634-E35EDC523AE3@brazee.net> Message-ID: <555021BF-233D-4551-A0CA-DFF74E8E32D5@brazee.net> > On Mar 14, 2022, at 9:26 AM, Harvey Fishman wrote: > > Both 12:00 AM and 12:00 PM are midnight, though on different days!! > Noon is 12:00 M!!! If you use 12:00 M, then you should also use 12:00 MM. But computers don?t understand either. And it is easy to say 12 noon and 12 midnight. (Still the date for midnight needs clarification). Christmas Eve meant the same as Christmas Night. It started at sundown. Same thing with Halloween. ?Days? started at sundown, not just Jewish Sabbath. Now we have people talking about Christmas Eve eve eve eve, thinking ?eve? means ?the day before?. Language changes, but sometime our needs and the language don?t correspond well. From domelouann at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 16:29:06 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 11:29:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyy!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 8:52 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Today we wish Ann - known as 'quietann' - a wonderful, happy birthday. > Ann, for your special day you are the guest of the haut Rian Degtiar, > Empress of Cetaganda. You'll have a guided tour around the most secret > and sacred parts of the Star Creche, and the rest of the dome. Amazing > gardens - with flowers that turn to follow you, butterflies that form > bright patterns in the air, bees that hum in harmonies, and so much more. > Happy birthday, Ann, and many happy returns! And with all the "Memory" discussions going on in other threads, it occurs to me that the Cetagandans will probably be stealing themselves some butter bugs Very Soon after Gregor's wedding. Sequence the DNA, send it home to I guess the Ghem women to play with, and adapt it for their own uses. I doubt they'll improve much on the exterior of the Glorious Bugs, though. From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 18:41:05 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 14:41:05 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Quick Ivan question In-Reply-To: <456043151.1085515.1647101291168@mail.yahoo.com> References: <357c4419-ee22-1900-4d46-2b3a4cf50f9f@myinfmail.com> <456043151.1085515.1647101291168@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 11:09 AM Richard Molpus wrote: > Once Ivan was working in Ops, and doing a very good job, the family's > practice would have ended once his first yearly evaluation circulated to > those 'In the Know'. > Can't be an idiot if a Major is gushing about how capable Lt. Vorpatril > is... Oh yes he can! People can be brilliant, competent, and capable at one moment, and then idiotic, incompetent, and hapless the next. How often has Miles said to himself "Miles, you idiot!" I'm pretty sure that's even happened in-canon. Matt "we contain multitudes" G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 19:03:48 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 15:03:48 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Focus and Illan In-Reply-To: <24DBEE30-AC46-4D9B-A8A0-09E0B20A98E9@brazee.net> References: <000B0DC7-51DA-46F9-A52C-834AEF74C21C@panix.com> <3D52AFD9-FE66-4779-B131-F6B92946D8DC@panix.com> <3BAE009E-7EB5-446C-A888-9C9626877C42@brazee.net> <24DBEE30-AC46-4D9B-A8A0-09E0B20A98E9@brazee.net> Message-ID: It's worth noting that processing of visual input begins in the retina, long before information is conveyed to the brain. It would be infeasible at best to create a brain implant that intercepted data before that point - you'd pretty much need cybernetic eyes, or a LaForge-style visor, to accomplish that. Once the eyes are finished, though, visual data is sent on a long pathway to the back of the brain, so duplicating the signal would be relatively easy. I assume the chip was designed so that the signals could be copied, stored, and replayed back into the nerves they were taken from, which would explain why Illyan always seemed so abstracted when he accessed his chip - he'd lose the ability to sense what was happening right now in order to sense what had happened at a specific moment. Emotional context also seemed to be duplicated. Capgras Delusion occurs when the pathways responsible for emotional recognition are impaired, leading to a feeling that recognized people aren't quite right or that they're perfectly duplicated imposters. It's sometimes seen in people with dementia or significant brain damage, so it's possible that rational thought can permit people to cope and thus disguise the underlying condition. Illyan was otherwise fully functioning when his implant began to malfunction, and yet he wasn't able to rationally recognize that he was regressing to past states of mind. How that could be managed, I have no idea - it would require an understanding of the brain far beyond what we have. We can't even see that from here, so to speak. It IS known that memory is heavily context-dependent - drunks have a hard time recalling information stored when they were sober but do remarkably well at recalling data encountered while they were previously drunk (up to a point), and when we're experiencing strong emotions it's easier to recall things from previous situations involving that emotion. Matt G. From matt.msg at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 22:50:14 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 18:50:14 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyy!!!! In-Reply-To: <32be9b39-8f94-0440-2477-091174da4c16@myinfmail.com> References: <32be9b39-8f94-0440-2477-091174da4c16@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: What are the things you make, then, if not stories? Matt G. From pouncer at aol.com Mon Mar 14 23:06:20 2022 From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 18:06:20 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Happy (U.S. , civilian) Pi Day! References: Message-ID: The rest of the world and the US military considers the date to be 14 / 03 / 2022. But for civilians in the U.S. (being exceptional, so to speak) it's 3-14 or Pi-Day, 2022! Anyone doing anything to celebrate (besides Ann?) -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com From howard at brazee.net Tue Mar 15 02:14:32 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 20:14:32 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Happy (U.S. , civilian) Pi Day! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1E411D2C-9D10-4927-8CD3-D5CDDE6CDFFB@brazee.net> > On Mar 14, 2022, at 5:06 PM, Pouncer via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > The rest of the world and the US military considers the date > to be 14 / 03 / 2022. But for civilians in the U.S. (being > exceptional, so to speak) it's 3-14 or Pi-Day, 2022! I prefer computers yyyy/mm/dd. It sorts correctly. From saffronrose at me.com Tue Mar 15 03:28:56 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2022 20:28:56 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Happy (U.S. , civilian) Pi Day! In-Reply-To: <1E411D2C-9D10-4927-8CD3-D5CDDE6CDFFB@brazee.net> References: <1E411D2C-9D10-4927-8CD3-D5CDDE6CDFFB@brazee.net> Message-ID: <44CC4D0E-2D20-417D-88C5-9940658FB6B5@me.com> On Mar 14, 2022, at 7:15 PM, Howard Brazee wrote: > >> On Mar 14, 2022, at 5:06 PM, Pouncer via Lois-Bujold wrote: >> >> The rest of the world and the US military considers the date >> to be 14 / 03 / 2022. But for civilians in the U.S. (being >> exceptional, so to speak) it's 3-14 or Pi-Day, 2022! > > I prefer computers yyyy/mm/dd. It sorts correctly. I prefer computer-style date sorting, too. Makes too much sense! Marina From proto at panix.com Tue Mar 15 11:29:52 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 07:29:52 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Happy (U.S. , civilian) Pi Day! In-Reply-To: <1E411D2C-9D10-4927-8CD3-D5CDDE6CDFFB@brazee.net> References: <1E411D2C-9D10-4927-8CD3-D5CDDE6CDFFB@brazee.net> Message-ID: <7A49A91C-3F27-4F25-9188-32C3974C650C@panix.com> > On Mar 14, 2022, at 10:14 PM, Howard Brazee wrote: > > I prefer computers yyyy/mm/dd. It sorts correctly. [Alas, I forgot pie day. ;)( However Star Wars Day is coming May the 4th be with you.] yyyymmdd also sorts correctly and is shorter. Both will work until year 10000. Shortly before that they may have to The 2 digit year number date formats were adopted when we had 80 column cards, and was kept in many applications even up to the 1990s. We didn?t see the results of the year 2000 transition because of heroic efforts of thousand of people who cleaned up the mess. Then other people said it was no big deal. Just like politicians get no kudos for maintaining infrastructure and hope the bridges collapse on some other person?s watch, if they bother to think that far ahead. They do get kudos for new infrastructure, opening ceremonies where they cut the ribbons, take credit for what the citizens or subjects (or children) will pay for and perhaps name the result after themselves. Chineses peasants clearly distinguished between warlords and rulers who were thinking long term even if only about their own family. The former would take everything and move on, the latter would at least try to see the peasants survived to farm next year. My take is that in America et. al. the government is mainly controlled by war load type thinking compared to the rulers of Barrayar under Aral and Gregor. Would you prefer Fat Freddie or Gregor? ? MD. MS. in Law Robert Lustig ?If there?s a label on the food, it?s a warning label. That means it has been processed. Real food doesn?t need a label.? From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Mar 15 14:01:23 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 14:01:23 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 21 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A midnight meeting. Simon goes with Miles, to the surprise of the rest of them - they're not used to the victim being part of the discussion. Miles rather enjoys seeing them all thrown off balance by Simon's presence. Including Haroche. Avakli tells them the damage was 'an artificially created event'. Full marks for not committing to anything, there. Haroche sighs and says he'd hoped it would be something simpler. I'll bet he did. Canaba is as obnoxious as ever, but he gets away with it because he was brilliant, too. He can put a name to the bug, it's JW work, he has a rough time window, and a few important features about it. Without him they really wouldn't have had much. It was probably paid for by some Komarran group. Definitely targetted at Simon. It's dust, it can be breathed in or applied to an open wound. Oh, and the best bit; it was breaking down naturally; in another week it would have vanished. I'll bet THAT really smarts, Haroche! Just a little more delay... He did wince at that news. So making Miles an Auditor did save the day, because he set events in motion before it was too late. Haroche asks if it could have been accidental. Considering all the information we've just heard... not really an A-plus level question. So they have how, and possibly when, but not who or why. Haroche will send teams to JW to find the lab and follow the money. Miles decides to stay put. Dr Ruibal points out that this could have been attempted murder: if they'd let it go much longer, Simon could have died. Haroche doesn't like to hear that. Outside the meeting Simon asks Haroche to find who did it. Shades of Negri? Miles doesn't sleep much for the rest of the night. His big-show trick of being a sort-of pretend Auditor is suddenly very real. And he has a very steep learning curve. By noon Miles is up, conscious, Auditorially dressed and waiting for Martin, when Cordelia arrives. The description is so vivid that you can practically hear the bustle of the whole circus arriving. Cordelia is concerned but supportive. And she'd bet Aral that Miles would make a run for it, and go back to the Dendarii. But for such a long time, everyone had only seen Naismith. She had no idea what Lord Vorkosigan could do. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Mar 15 14:13:17 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 14:13:17 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 21 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah, the meeting - I love the way Miles and Canaba have a conversation on one level that nobody else at the meeting knows about. Haroche is upset that it's sabotage - or that it's recognised as sabotage. And just one week more and he'd have been safe. Ha. And after all the tension and weasels we get Cordelia - a blast of fresh air. With '...guards, secretaries, maids, servitors, drivers, porters, dependents, and more guards....' Just wondering - who are the dependents? Does it mean families of the armsmen? Or is Cordelia sponsoring some Sergyarans, maybe giving them a free trip to Barrayar and accommodation at Vorkosigan House until they can enrol in university, or something? Suddenly Vorkosigan House is full of energy and action - just like Miles's life. That echoing, empty house that he hid inside, all alone, with nothing to do and nowhere to go, all his plans shattered - now the house is bustling with people, full and happy - and Miles is busy, too. Like Cordelia, Miles is used to having a support team. Poor Martin really wasn't up to his standards. From kdschoen1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 17:01:24 2022 From: kdschoen1 at gmail.com (Kenton Schoen) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 13:01:24 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Happy (U.S. , civilian) Pi Day! In-Reply-To: <7A49A91C-3F27-4F25-9188-32C3974C650C@panix.com> References: <1E411D2C-9D10-4927-8CD3-D5CDDE6CDFFB@brazee.net> <7A49A91C-3F27-4F25-9188-32C3974C650C@panix.com> Message-ID: At least some of us pi'd yesterday, and I hope that all who wished to also pie'd But don't sit idely today. You should be wary, March can be very Harey! Kenton, ducks and hops away. On Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 7:29 AM WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > > > On Mar 14, 2022, at 10:14 PM, Howard Brazee wrote: > > > > I prefer computers yyyy/mm/dd. It sorts correctly. > > [Alas, I forgot pie day. ;)( However Star Wars Day is coming May the 4th > be with you.] > > yyyymmdd also sorts correctly and is shorter. Both will work until year > 10000. > Shortly before that they may have to > The 2 digit year number date formats were adopted when we had 80 column > cards, > and was kept in many applications even up to the 1990s. > > We didn?t see the results of the year 2000 transition because of heroic > efforts of thousand > of people who cleaned up the mess. Then other people said it was no big > deal. Just like > politicians get no kudos for maintaining infrastructure and hope the > bridges collapse on > some other person?s watch, if they bother to think that far ahead. They do > get kudos for > new infrastructure, opening ceremonies where they cut the ribbons, take > credit for what > the citizens or subjects (or children) will pay for and perhaps name the > result after themselves. > > Chineses peasants clearly distinguished between warlords and rulers who > were thinking long > term even if only about their own family. The former would take everything > and move on, the > latter would at least try to see the peasants survived to farm next year. > > My take is that in America et. al. the government is mainly controlled by > war load type thinking > compared to the rulers of Barrayar under Aral and Gregor. Would you prefer > Fat Freddie or Gregor? > > ? > MD. MS. in Law Robert Lustig ?If there?s a label on the food, it?s a > warning > label. That means it has been processed. Real food doesn?t need a label.? > > > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kdschoen1 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From proto at panix.com Tue Mar 15 19:14:44 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 15:14:44 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Happy (U.S. , civilian) Pi Day! In-Reply-To: References: <1E411D2C-9D10-4927-8CD3-D5CDDE6CDFFB@brazee.net> <7A49A91C-3F27-4F25-9188-32C3974C650C@panix.com> Message-ID: <81D3BAE0-C839-4A6D-B561-8CE46685CCA7@panix.com> > On Mar 15, 2022, at 1:01 PM, Kenton Schoen wrote: > > But don't sit idely today. You should be wary, March can be very Harey! Cut a pun like that around here and it _will_ ribbit peoples attention. ? As the historical Buddha said, ?Hatred does not stop by hatred at any time; hatred stops only by love. this is an ancient rule.? about 2770 BP (BP means either Before Present or Before Physics that is before nuclear testing made it necessary to adjust carbon 14 dating. From proto at panix.com Tue Mar 15 20:23:50 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 16:23:50 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyy!!!! In-Reply-To: <32be9b39-8f94-0440-2477-091174da4c16@myinfmail.com> References: <32be9b39-8f94-0440-2477-091174da4c16@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 14, 2022, at 11:09 AM, Lois Bujold wrote: > > [LMB] Birthdayyyyy!!!! > WalterStuartBushell proto at panix.com > Mon Mar 14 14:48:02 GMT 2022 > > > WSB: I should have thought the characters would be tired of us readers, but > then I thought they only exist due to us and general fan base, of course, > > Herself couldn?t have spent the time to write aside from her readers. :) > > > LMB: That is absolutely correct, and it's good for writers not to forget that. > > My comfortable life now is the result of decades of shrewd effort, sure, but all that effort would have run out into the sands without the readership. > > (My belief that books and their characters only exist in readers' heads, that stuff on the pages is just ink blotches, I've gone into before. For a worked example, imagine looking at the pages of a book in a language you do not know. No story to be had there!) > > Ta, L. > And in the Creator?s head too in a different and more profound way as well as the general reader?s viewpoint. The Creator after all controls the character?s canonical actions and the environment in which they act. Within limits, once a character is created, that character cannot act arbitrarily if you want a quality story There is, I have to think there is fan fic that cannot be resolved with canon, especially sine the publication order and internal order so diverge. (I have largely avoid fan fic, because if it is any good, I am likely to confuse it with canon which would be, of course, a canonical error. (I?ve been called on it at least once.) About Gentleman Jole, I wondered wether his infrequent appearances clued some people to think he was much more important than he appeared. A perusal through the saga could be enlightening. From quietann at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 20:47:14 2022 From: quietann at gmail.com (quietann) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 16:47:14 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyy!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, this sounds wonderful! My real-life birthday was pretty boring so this is nice to think about. Ann On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 9:52 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Today we wish Ann - known as 'quietann' - a wonderful, happy birthday. > Ann, for your special day you are the guest of the haut Rian Degtiar, > Empress of Cetaganda. You'll have a guided tour around the most secret > and sacred parts of the Star Creche, and the rest of the dome. Amazing > gardens - with flowers that turn to follow you, butterflies that form > bright patterns in the air, bees that hum in harmonies, and so much more. > > Then there'll be a banquet of amazing foods you've never tasted before - > so delicately arranged that each grain of rice is perfectly aligned, and > all > the other foods are so artistically presented that it's almost a shame to > eat them. While you and the other haut ladies are dining, a choir will > sing with celestial harmonies. > > As evening falls a swarm of glittering fireflies, in a sparkling rainbow of > colours, will spell out 'Happy Birthday' across the sky, while the choir > sing > for your special day. > > Have a wonderful time, Ann! > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to quietann at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- quietann at gmail.com aka "The Accidental Jewess" From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 21:47:59 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 16:47:59 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: update #1 on Edna In-Reply-To: References: <2EF13B97-ED69-4556-BD2D-1357E17D423D@me.com> Message-ID: I hope you get better. I feel for you being laid up myself. If get a cat scan ask for a Persian. They give purrfect scans. On Thu, Mar 10, 2022, 7:59 PM Pat Mathews wrote: > A wonderful nurse is half the battle. May everything go well. > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 6:48 PM > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Cc: A. Marina Fournier ; Femrel > Subject: [LMB] OT: update #1 on Edna > > > ? > ? > ?Kurt says: > > Bad breakage of hip, cat scan underway, nurse is wonderful. > > A. Marina Fournier > saffronrose at me.com > Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e > Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA > Sent from iFionnghuala > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From matt.msg at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 22:06:43 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 18:06:43 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyy!!!! In-Reply-To: References: <32be9b39-8f94-0440-2477-091174da4c16@myinfmail.com> Message-ID: Seeds, skeletons, scaffolds, blueprints... I think 'blueprints' is the best metaphor, myself. I don't know about Jole, but Alys Vorpatril was a frequently-appearing character, and we found out that she was a regular informant for ImpSec only relatively late in the series. Even when we knew she was important, being the social hostess for Gregor, she had hidden depths. Matt G. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 22:06:44 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 17:06:44 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: energy etc request In-Reply-To: References: <1046671316.681015.1646954167251@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm so sorry I hope she gets better, and please disregard my previous reply. I know how hard it is to have a loved one to be in such a critical condition. You have my thoughts and hopes in my heart. On Fri, Mar 11, 2022, 7:11 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Praying > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Karen A. Wyle > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 4:16:07 PM > To: A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold > Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: energy etc request > > Sending all three. > Karen A. Wyle > On Thursday, March 10, 2022, 06:07:08 PM EST, A. Marina Fournier via > Lois-Bujold wrote: > > My belle-m?re Edna (91, in dementia) just fell and may have broken her > hip. Kurt?s called an ambulance. > > Broken hips in seniors are not good. > > I?m returning from an appointment. > > Energy, prayers, good thoughts, towards OConnor hospital in San Jose, > please. > > A. Marina Fournier > saffronrose at me.com > Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e > Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA > Sent from iFionnghuala > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C222d32d42479442d314208da02ebfd67%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637825509836635438%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=L4ygGCDqbv0%2BBSyPX4JhTBpb8ExM5PaT4s%2F1qWcgHac%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 22:49:37 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 17:49:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 17 In-Reply-To: References: <108c79ad-b9c7-e5a6-49ee-d14854a0c16b@cox.net> <1421443391.2105225.1647220346656@mail.yahoo.com> <58904959.2137392.1647231410598@mail.yahoo.com> <76b9efc4-74dc-dc00-78e6-2b6ef6394bd4@matija.com> Message-ID: And so we know which finger Emperor Gregor used. The Fickle Finger of Fate! Ta da! On Mon, Mar 14, 2022, 7:35 AM WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > > > On Mar 14, 2022, at 5:15 AM, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > Time in grade is meaningless because now Miles is no longer in the > military, he is an auditor, which means he outranks everybody, except the > council of Auditors and Gregor. > > The Counts and Ministers in joint session or the Emperor are the onliest > that can remove his auditor-ship. > > ? > ?That which doesn?t make us stronger kills us.? > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From pouncer at aol.com Wed Mar 16 00:17:10 2022 From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 19:17:10 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 21 References: <07c08086-9eda-a474-d01b-db8023893fb4.ref@aol.com> Message-ID: <07c08086-9eda-a474-d01b-db8023893fb4@aol.com> Gwynne: >[Cordelia]'d bet Aral that Miles would make a run for it, and >go back to the Dendarii. I almost suspect Cordelia HOPED Miles would make a run for it. Giving Barrayar her son as a hostage, no longer. The only question would be, run where? -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com From proto at panix.com Wed Mar 16 13:03:04 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 09:03:04 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Ivan Xav Message-ID: " Ivan stiffened and not in a good way? (He was in bed with Tej at the time.) I was in the next sentence before it came to me what was a good way for Ivan to stiffen. Sort of a double take, iff you get my drift. (iff If and only if) (My spell chucker approves of the word.) ? "We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." - Attributed to Plato From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 16 14:25:01 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:25:01 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Miles hangs around Haroche's office, driving him crazy. Haroche tries to send him off to JW. (Having the Auditor hanging around all day must have driven Haroche close to the edge. Miles points out anything that Haroche misses. Haroche REALLY tries to send Miles to JW. Miles is restless - he's never been good at waiting - so he roams the building, explores a bit, then decides to check it all out, systematically. He leaves a trail of confusion and disaster, which is pretty much his idea of a successful visit. Some department heads give explanations for various expenses, some just babble in panic. Considering that this is ImpSec, it makes you realise the power of an Auditor (although Simon's breakdown would have increased the tension, too.) Miles is good at non-commital noises to prompt agonies of conscience-clearing. Well, at least it's entertaining. For him. Cordelia's minions are settling into Vorkosigan House - no more wandering around in his undies drinking coffee and doing nothing. Miles heads to ImpSec, for the peace. First he goes to report to Gregor. Haroche has told Gregor that Simon is very damaged (afraid Simon will want his job back?) Miles just thinks he's out of practice. Miles complains that he's just waiting. Gregor points out that it's been ONE day. (Miles really does have a different sense of time to everyone else; is it because he expects to live a shorter life?) He can't find any loose strings to pull. Miles also gives Gregor the option of putting a real Auditor on the job, but Gregor is happy with Miles - he's actually perfectly qualified for this, he knows ImpSec but he's no longer part of it. And of all the Auditors, he's least likely to be overawed by ImpSec (or by anyone. Or anything. Harking back to Piotr and that suite of rooms being used by Simon; Miles grew up surrounded by powerful people. Power on its own doesn't impress or daunt him.) Laisa and Alys arrive for morning tea. Laisa is practically attached to Alys at the moment, doing a fast apprenticeship in all things Imperial. Laisa was surprised at how.... ordinary... Simon seemed. Not a monster, but she didn't say that. Miles answers the thought and says that real monsters are often very ordinary men (Gee, I can think of one ordinary man that he should be looking at....) They invite Miles to a friendly little non-political social bash next week, (Non-political? Ohhhh sure.) Laisa delicately suggests he could bring a friend... a romantic interest... um - does he like girls? Miles says he'll probably bring Delia, and they all sip their coffee and converse on approved topics. Gregor also asks Alys to bring Simon to the luncheon he and Laisa are having with Cordelia and Alys. He misses Simon's company and conversation - he's realised how much more there was to those morning reports. Miles continues the assault on ImpSec. Cryptography try to confuse him, Finance are delighted that someone cares, Housekeeping and Physical Plant are fascinating. Miles loves the details about how the building is protected - Dono was mad as a boot, but he really was brilliant, in a rather paranoid way. Miles has fun crawling through ventilation ducts, and seeing all the details about the place. The janitorial staff love him - nobody ever bothers much about them. They remind him of the Dendarii, a bit heart-wrenching. And it's ironic that it's only after leaving ImpSec service that he's found out so much about the place. Dinner with Cordelia and Simon, and civilised conversation. If you put little reminders into the discussion, Simon can follow along. Analysis the next day - a chat with Duv Galeni, and another with Komaran Affairs chief General Allegre. Colonel Olshanky, from Sergyaran Affairs, asks politely about Cordelia, so Miles invites him to dinner to have a chat with her. Daunting but interesting. And last of all, the lowest level, the Evidence Rooms. Somewhere in there is a rusty crossbow and a can of poison. Old memories. This is probably also a brilliant collection of the most lethal weapons and poisons on the planet. Miles is happy for the desk sargeant to scan his iris rather than just do the Auditorial thing and sail through - which would make life harder for the poor sargeant. And it won't go through - oh yes, Haroche took him off the list. Haroche's secretary fixes that. Yes, the iris scan goes through, and lists his previous visits. Oh. And that includes one that he didn't make. The day he resigned. Oops. Somebody's made a BIG mistake. Miles is ecstatic - he has his loose end. First things first - send for Ivan. I love Ivan's arrival - shaking off the ImpSec escort, "Yes, yes, see, I'm not lost. You can go away now. Thank you." Shades of Lord Peter Wimsey there, yes? Miles explains that the system is lying to him. Ivan is in sync with Miles right away. There's a fake visit on the log, and the exit time has been altered, to leave just time for a groundcar trip back to Vorkosigan House -those logs haven't been touched. Problem is, he walked that day. And the vid monitor for that day was.... Ivan gets it right away. Missing. Total lack of idiocy here. Ivan is very fast to process the information. And he knows right away that he's going to be doing an inventory of the Evidence Rooms. Miles can't do it for obvious reasons. Ivan isn't delighted: "Biologicals too? The cold room too?" Ok - so how does Ivan know all this about the most secret, highly guarded part of ImpSec? He knows his way to the place, he knows exactly what's in there - did Miles bring him to look at the Soltoxin? Or to see some of Miles's captured weapons? Miles goes to tell Haroche, who is very upset (ha.) Miles could close all of ImpSec down until they find out how the system was compromised, but he suggests instead a team of men working together, section by section. Haroche is grateful that he's so reasonable about it all. "I'm always reasonable." - my favourite line from this chapter. And just for a moment I almost felt sympathy for Haroche. Almost. Briefly. Miles is confused about the evidence room. The frameup doesn't seem to make sense. He needs to know if it was set up before or after he became an Auditor. Miles isn't happy about it, he doesn't like being a target. (Considering his chosen approach to life, it's really unavoidable.) Haroche is starting to understand why Simon came out of briefings with Miles swearing under his breath. And why he gave Miles the toughest jobs. (I hope he's also getting nervous.) From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 16 14:46:20 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:46:20 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 22 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The biggest mystery here - how does Ivan know so much about ImpSec? Did he visit Miles there? He was with Simon for a few hours but that was hardly a guided tour of the whole place. Miles has a wonderful time tearing ImpSec apart, and seeing the whole place with the perspective of an outsider. It's a fascinating place - I wonder if the new building will be as efficient. Miles isn't good at waiting. He has to do something. Anything. The fact that he reduces the top ImpSec personnel to gibbering idiots shows how powerful an Auditor really is. Miles sends for Ivan; he has to do the inventory, Miles can't for obvious reasons. And Ivan is totally trustworthy and capable to do such a serious and EXTREMELY top-secret job. He wanders in and out of the place without turning a hair. He gets the significance of Miles's findings instantly. Yeah. Idiot. Sure. "I'm always reasonable." Still my favourite line, especially because he believes it. Miles has raised being obnoxious to an art form, and an effective investigatory technique. Basically he just rips his way through, shaking it all until something useful falls out. I don't think that any of the other Auditors could have done the same. From proto at panix.com Wed Mar 16 14:48:21 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 10:48:21 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F381BD9-7939-4CA5-B177-9FD56BB521DD@panix.com> > On Mar 16, 2022, at 10:25 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > The day he resigned. I would say the day he was resigned or was retired. We can say that, unless on a birthday trip to Barrayar where it why Miles left ImpSec is classified. ? "In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell From rgmolpus at flash.net Wed Mar 16 14:56:08 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:56:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1160654589.1312114.1647442568160@mail.yahoo.com> Maybe signs on the doors? On Wednesday, March 16, 2022, 09:25:18 AM CDT, Gwynne Powell wrote: (snip) Miles explains that the system is lying to him. Ivan is in sync with Miles right away. There's a fake visit on the log, and the exit time has been altered, to leave just time for a groundcar trip back to Vorkosigan House -those logs haven't been touched. Problem is, he walked that day.? And the vid monitor for that day was.... Ivan gets it right away. Missing. Total lack of idiocy here. Ivan is very fast to process the information. And he knows right away that he's going to be doing an inventory of the Evidence Rooms. Miles can't do it for obvious reasons. Ivan isn't delighted: "Biologicals too? The cold room too?" Ok - so how does Ivan know all this about the most secret, highly guarded part of ImpSec? He knows his way to the place, he knows exactly what's in there - did Miles bring him to look at the Soltoxin? Or to see some of Miles's captured weapons? (snip) From listmail at gordonj.net Wed Mar 16 16:35:47 2022 From: listmail at gordonj.net (Gordon Jackson) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 16:35:47 -0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Covid Message-ID: <02a101d83953$e5f9ece0$b1edc6a0$@gordonj.net> Well, in spite of 3 vaccinations and usual precautions I have Covid. Visited my GP last week, I wonder if I got infected there? Fortunately, I meet NHS criteria for Monoclonal Antibody treatment. So I got that (Sotromivab). Here's hoping for the best Gordon From kawyle at att.net Wed Mar 16 16:38:13 2022 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 16:38:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] OT: Covid In-Reply-To: <02a101d83953$e5f9ece0$b1edc6a0$@gordonj.net> References: <02a101d83953$e5f9ece0$b1edc6a0$@gordonj.net> Message-ID: <387955231.2105609.1647448693813@mail.yahoo.com> Best of luck! May the treatment work thoroughly and quickly! Karen A. Wyle On Wednesday, March 16, 2022, 12:36:25 PM EDT, Gordon Jackson wrote: Well, in spite of 3 vaccinations and usual precautions I have Covid. Visited my GP last week, I wonder if I got infected there? Fortunately, I meet NHS criteria for Monoclonal Antibody treatment. So I got that (Sotromivab). Here's hoping for the best Gordon -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From markgoldfield at hotmail.com Wed Mar 16 18:06:26 2022 From: markgoldfield at hotmail.com (Mark Goldfield) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 18:06:26 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Covid In-Reply-To: <02a101d83953$e5f9ece0$b1edc6a0$@gordonj.net> References: <02a101d83953$e5f9ece0$b1edc6a0$@gordonj.net> Message-ID: Best wishes for a full recovery. The vaccinations and prompt treatment make that seem likely. Stay safe. Mark ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gordon Jackson Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 12:35 PM To: 'Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold.' Subject: [LMB] OT: Covid Well, in spite of 3 vaccinations and usual precautions I have Covid. Visited my GP last week, I wonder if I got infected there? Fortunately, I meet NHS criteria for Monoclonal Antibody treatment. So I got that (Sotromivab). Here's hoping for the best Gordon -- From saffronrose at me.com Wed Mar 16 18:42:22 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 11:42:22 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Covid In-Reply-To: <02a101d83953$e5f9ece0$b1edc6a0$@gordonj.net> References: <02a101d83953$e5f9ece0$b1edc6a0$@gordonj.net> Message-ID: <4AA38697-5553-4557-BCA6-065FFE5F926C@me.com> On Mar 16, 2022, at 9:36 AM, Gordon Jackson wrote: > > ?Well, in spite of 3 vaccinations and usual precautions I have Covid. Visited my GP last week, I wonder if I got infected there? Fortunately, I meet NHS criteria for Monoclonal Antibody treatment. So I got that (Sotromivab). > Here's hoping for the best Definitely! The medication name sounds like an alien planet. Omicron seems to sneak past, but gives a mild case. Two of my similarly cautious friends managed to catch it, with mild cass, feeling like a bad cold, but neither sought further treatment. A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From litalex at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 18:54:25 2022 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:54:25 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Covid In-Reply-To: <02a101d83953$e5f9ece0$b1edc6a0$@gordonj.net> References: <02a101d83953$e5f9ece0$b1edc6a0$@gordonj.net> Message-ID: <43A09D50-B13A-4663-8B19-D13BCD55283F@gmail.com> Hello, > On Mar 16, 2022, at 12:35, Gordon Jackson wrote: > > Well, in spite of 3 vaccinations and usual precautions I have Covid. Visited my GP last week, I wonder if I got infected there? Fortunately, I meet NHS criteria for Monoclonal Antibody treatment. So I got that (Sotromivab). > Here's hoping for the best > Gordon Eeek! I hope you get well soon! little Alex From wawenri at msn.com Wed Mar 16 19:30:12 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 19:30:12 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Celebrating 50 Message-ID: We are trying to work out a celebration time and place for our 50th anniversary. We've almost settled on taking the immediate family to Disney World in 2023. Our biggest problem seems to be that, with school and work schedules, the only times we can go are the times everyone else on the planet will be trying to go as well. Any ideas? William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Wed Mar 16 19:41:33 2022 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 19:41:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] ot: Leslie Fish's latest album Message-ID: <3907578c-4597-716f-e61a-425e5331a7c7@mindspring.com> Leslie Fish's latest album, "Sea of Dreams," is streaming: ? https://open.spotify.com/album/0SCGuO5g3mVqoFslwayAc9?si=R_Ctnzl6TlW92djJx4lwKQ&nd=1 ? https://music.apple.com/us/album/sea-of-dreams/1607237195 ? https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ljuPOh9u3GxoZAOlf58qe1noIK854N6Ac ? Digital downloads and cds may be purchased here: ?https://www.prometheus-music.com/product/sea-of-dreams-leslie-fish/ ? Squee! ? Jerrie From wawenri at msn.com Wed Mar 16 19:42:33 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 19:42:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations Message-ID: I just read a news story that says we might have dodged a bullet on the Albuquerque International Hot Air Balloon Fiesta for this year. The FAA had put out a new rule that all aircraft, including balloons, use a particular transponder. This transponder uses aircraft power and can't be used on a balloon. The story stated that an agreement had been reached for this year, 2022. I have heard of this kind of thing happening before. IIRC, the FAA was going to require fuel tanks to be pressurized with nitrogen. This would require a high pressure source of nitrogen. As an alternative, the airlines proposed using an oxygen concentrator in reverse to lower the oxygen level in the fuel tanks. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. From wawenri at msn.com Wed Mar 16 19:46:54 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 19:46:54 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Covid In-Reply-To: <43A09D50-B13A-4663-8B19-D13BCD55283F@gmail.com> References: <02a101d83953$e5f9ece0$b1edc6a0$@gordonj.net> <43A09D50-B13A-4663-8B19-D13BCD55283F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hope you get better soon. The monoclonal antibody treatment worked well for my son, Brian. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Alex Kwan Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 12:54:25 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Covid Hello, > On Mar 16, 2022, at 12:35, Gordon Jackson wrote: > > Well, in spite of 3 vaccinations and usual precautions I have Covid. Visited my GP last week, I wonder if I got infected there? Fortunately, I meet NHS criteria for Monoclonal Antibody treatment. So I got that (Sotromivab). > Here's hoping for the best > Gordon Eeek! I hope you get well soon! little Alex -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ca3b0a7a4b12d49e1f13908da077e6bf6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830536799717891%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=7%2Bgx1ToS9Fr88AlWswWhMLG1Ck%2B%2FdPOkWDRj15QU9tA%3D&reserved=0 From fishman at panix.com Wed Mar 16 19:48:39 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 19:48:39 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why can't the transponder be used in a balloon? There is nothing sacred about aircraft power; it is straight old 28 Volts DC and/or 115 Volts AC 400 hertz. As long as the balloon has suitable power, the transponder should be usable. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" To: "Dendarri List" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 3/16/2022 3:42:33 PM Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations >I just read a news story that says we might have dodged a bullet on the Albuquerque International Hot Air Balloon Fiesta for this year. >The FAA had put out a new rule that all aircraft, including balloons, use a particular transponder. This transponder uses aircraft power and can't be used on a balloon. >The story stated that an agreement had been reached for this year, 2022. >I have heard of this kind of thing happening before. IIRC, the FAA was going to require fuel tanks to be pressurized with nitrogen. This would require a high pressure source of nitrogen. As an alternative, the airlines proposed using an oxygen concentrator in reverse to lower the oxygen level in the fuel tanks. > >William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From wawenri at msn.com Wed Mar 16 19:52:07 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 19:52:07 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Balloons don?t have engines and from why I gather the equipment won?t run on batteries. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Harvey Fishman Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 1:48:39 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: regulations Why can't the transponder be used in a balloon? There is nothing sacred about aircraft power; it is straight old 28 Volts DC and/or 115 Volts AC 400 hertz. As long as the balloon has suitable power, the transponder should be usable. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" To: "Dendarri List" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 3/16/2022 3:42:33 PM Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations >I just read a news story that says we might have dodged a bullet on the Albuquerque International Hot Air Balloon Fiesta for this year. >The FAA had put out a new rule that all aircraft, including balloons, use a particular transponder. This transponder uses aircraft power and can't be used on a balloon. >The story stated that an agreement had been reached for this year, 2022. >I have heard of this kind of thing happening before. IIRC, the FAA was going to require fuel tanks to be pressurized with nitrogen. This would require a high pressure source of nitrogen. As an alternative, the airlines proposed using an oxygen concentrator in reverse to lower the oxygen level in the fuel tanks. > >William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Caa28e57b626d48ab399608da0785fb1b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830569266477138%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=XcTzymYBRNqkIGXPquVeNych%2BuXuZFiv9WiricDCq0g%3D&reserved=0 -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Caa28e57b626d48ab399608da0785fb1b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830569266477138%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=XcTzymYBRNqkIGXPquVeNych%2BuXuZFiv9WiricDCq0g%3D&reserved=0 From fishman at panix.com Wed Mar 16 19:55:05 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 19:55:05 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A battery and an inverter; making AC from DC is not that difficult these days. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 3/16/2022 3:52:07 PM Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: regulations >Balloons don?t have engines and from why I gather the equipment won?t run on batteries. > >William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > >________________________________ >From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Harvey Fishman >Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 1:48:39 PM >To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. >Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: regulations > >Why can't the transponder be used in a balloon? There is nothing sacred >about aircraft power; it is straight old 28 Volts DC and/or 115 Volts AC >400 hertz. As long as the balloon has suitable power, the transponder >should be usable. > >Harvey > >------ Original Message ------ >From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" >To: "Dendarri List" >Bcc: fishman at panix.com >Sent: 3/16/2022 3:42:33 PM >Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations > >>I just read a news story that says we might have dodged a bullet on the Albuquerque International Hot Air Balloon Fiesta for this year. >>The FAA had put out a new rule that all aircraft, including balloons, use a particular transponder. This transponder uses aircraft power and can't be used on a balloon. >>The story stated that an agreement had been reached for this year, 2022. >>I have heard of this kind of thing happening before. IIRC, the FAA was going to require fuel tanks to be pressurized with nitrogen. This would require a high pressure source of nitrogen. As an alternative, the airlines proposed using an oxygen concentrator in reverse to lower the oxygen level in the fuel tanks. >> >>William A Wenrich >> >> * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. >> >>-- >>Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >>Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Caa28e57b626d48ab399608da0785fb1b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830569266477138%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=XcTzymYBRNqkIGXPquVeNych%2BuXuZFiv9WiricDCq0g%3D&reserved=0 > > >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Caa28e57b626d48ab399608da0785fb1b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830569266477138%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=XcTzymYBRNqkIGXPquVeNych%2BuXuZFiv9WiricDCq0g%3D&reserved=0 >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From howard at brazee.net Wed Mar 16 19:57:08 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 13:57:08 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 16, 2022, at 1:52 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > Balloons don?t have engines and from why I gather the equipment won?t run on batteries. The dawn patrol has lights, so why not transponders? From baur at chello.at Wed Mar 16 20:27:12 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 21:27:12 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Fwd: OT: regulations In-Reply-To: <90e8ab5b-76bd-807d-433d-315262c47cd0@chello.at> References: <90e8ab5b-76bd-807d-433d-315262c47cd0@chello.at> Message-ID: <02e5b488-ad3e-e04d-d82d-c15097bcd94c@chello.at> technically there should not be a problem - especially since balloons already use power for the radio, the gps and perhaps an electronic variometer (precision vertical speed) at least here in europe many gliders use transponders and a special version of TCAS adapted for gliders the larger problem is the short time horizon for this rule change servus markus Am 16.03.2022 um 20:48 schrieb Harvey Fishman: > Why can't the transponder be used in a balloon? There is nothing sacred > about aircraft power; it is straight old 28 Volts DC and/or 115 Volts AC > 400 hertz. As long as the balloon has suitable power, the transponder > should be usable. > > Harvey > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" > To: "Dendarri List" > Bcc: fishman at panix.com > Sent: 3/16/2022 3:42:33 PM > Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations > >> I just read a news story that says we might have dodged a bullet on >> the Albuquerque International Hot Air Balloon Fiesta for this year. >> The FAA had put out a new rule that all aircraft, including balloons, >> use a particular transponder. This transponder uses aircraft power and >> can't be used on a balloon. >> The story stated that an agreement had been reached for this year, 2022. >> I have heard of this kind of thing happening before. IIRC, the FAA was >> going to require fuel tanks to be pressurized with nitrogen. This >> would require a high pressure source of nitrogen. As an alternative, >> the airlines proposed using an oxygen concentrator in reverse to lower >> the oxygen level in the fuel tanks. >> >> William A Wenrich >> >> ? *?? A sinner dependent on God?s grace. >> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From baur at chello.at Wed Mar 16 20:27:28 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 21:27:28 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Fwd: OT: regulations In-Reply-To: <3fafcca5-2542-9005-1185-395b8f802e50@chello.at> References: <3fafcca5-2542-9005-1185-395b8f802e50@chello.at> Message-ID: <107e4684-2b95-a655-b2b6-681ea1912176@chello.at> it does that happily in gliders servus markus Am 16.03.2022 um 20:52 schrieb WILLIAM A WENRICH: > Balloons don?t have engines and from why I gather the equipment won?t run on batteries. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Harvey Fishman > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 1:48:39 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. > Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: regulations > > Why can't the transponder be used in a balloon? There is nothing sacred > about aircraft power; it is straight old 28 Volts DC and/or 115 Volts AC > 400 hertz. As long as the balloon has suitable power, the transponder > should be usable. > > Harvey > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" > To: "Dendarri List" > Bcc: fishman at panix.com > Sent: 3/16/2022 3:42:33 PM > Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations > >> I just read a news story that says we might have dodged a bullet on the Albuquerque International Hot Air Balloon Fiesta for this year. >> The FAA had put out a new rule that all aircraft, including balloons, use a particular transponder. This transponder uses aircraft power and can't be used on a balloon. >> The story stated that an agreement had been reached for this year, 2022. >> I have heard of this kind of thing happening before. IIRC, the FAA was going to require fuel tanks to be pressurized with nitrogen. This would require a high pressure source of nitrogen. As an alternative, the airlines proposed using an oxygen concentrator in reverse to lower the oxygen level in the fuel tanks. >> >> William A Wenrich >> >> * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. >> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Caa28e57b626d48ab399608da0785fb1b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830569266477138%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=XcTzymYBRNqkIGXPquVeNych%2BuXuZFiv9WiricDCq0g%3D&reserved=0 > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Caa28e57b626d48ab399608da0785fb1b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830569266477138%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=XcTzymYBRNqkIGXPquVeNych%2BuXuZFiv9WiricDCq0g%3D&reserved=0 -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From baur at chello.at Wed Mar 16 20:35:50 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 21:35:50 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations In-Reply-To: References: <3fafcca5-2542-9005-1185-395b8f802e50@chello.at> Message-ID: for example (looked for ADS-B capable transponders for gliders) https://trig-avionics.com/product/compact-transponder/ go to specifications 9-33 V DC, 0.28 A (i assume at a nominal 24V) so this should be able to run from the same battery as your already existing radio and the gps servus markus Am 16.03.2022 um 21:20 schrieb WILLIAM A WENRICH: > I don?t know the weight and power requirements. I am just going by what > I read in the papers and see on the news. If someone has more > information on the specifics, please let me know. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* markus baur > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 16, 2022 2:12:29 PM > *To:* WILLIAM A WENRICH > *Subject:* Re: [LMB] OT: regulations > it does that happily in gliders > > servus > > markus > > Am 16.03.2022 um 20:52 schrieb WILLIAM A WENRICH: >> Balloons don?t have engines and from why I gather the equipment won?t run on batteries. >> >> William A Wenrich >> >>??? *?? A sinner dependent on God?s grace. >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Harvey Fishman >> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 1:48:39 PM >> To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. >> Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: regulations >> >> Why can't the transponder be used in a balloon? There is nothing sacred >> about aircraft power; it is straight old 28 Volts DC and/or 115 Volts AC >> 400 hertz. As long as the balloon has suitable power, the transponder >> should be usable. >> >> Harvey >> >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" >> To: "Dendarri List" >> Bcc: fishman at panix.com >> Sent: 3/16/2022 3:42:33 PM >> Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations >> >>> I just read a news story that says we might have dodged a bullet on the Albuquerque International Hot Air Balloon Fiesta for this year. >>> The FAA had put out a new rule that all aircraft, including balloons, use a particular transponder. This transponder uses aircraft power and can't be used on a balloon. >>> The story stated that an agreement had been reached for this year, 2022. >>> I have heard of this kind of thing happening before. IIRC, the FAA was going to require fuel tanks to be pressurized with nitrogen. This would require a high pressure source of nitrogen. As an alternative, the airlines proposed using an oxygen concentrator in reverse to lower the oxygen level in the fuel tanks. >>> >>> William A Wenrich >>> >>>??? *?? A sinner dependent on God?s grace. >>> >>> -- >>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C19c42828a1fd41af233308da07895051%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830583582152138%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=%2BEYGsnuvJ59rQP911aoRMPd604t0d3lTL0gVyOiTYBs%3D&reserved=0 > >> >> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C19c42828a1fd41af233308da07895051%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830583582152138%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=%2BEYGsnuvJ59rQP911aoRMPd604t0d3lTL0gVyOiTYBs%3D&reserved=0 > > > > -- > markus baur???????????????????? SCA: markus von brixlegg > schluesselgasse 3/5???????????? tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 > a-1040 wien???????????????????? email: baur at chello.at > austria/europe????????????????? icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E > > a portrait: > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abcgallery.com%2FA%2Farcimboldo%2Farcimboldo9.html&data=04%7C01%7C%7C19c42828a1fd41af233308da07895051%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830583582152138%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=QUKm%2BdpbHea3v%2B39humHG8KX3RXc5AxCC%2FLGwrMTga0%3D&reserved=0 > > > "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From wawenri at msn.com Wed Mar 16 20:44:11 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 20:44:11 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations In-Reply-To: References: <3fafcca5-2542-9005-1185-395b8f802e50@chello.at> Message-ID: Everything I have seen uses AA or AAA. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: markus baur Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 2:35:50 PM To: WILLIAM A WENRICH ; Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: regulations for example (looked for ADS-B capable transponders for gliders) https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftrig-avionics.com%2Fproduct%2Fcompact-transponder%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7C299281b98e5b40e84d2108da078c93c3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830597599836543%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=i%2BvR9khNEECdHg9KhBjfPXDZFArzLI96YdMHZIVmT2c%3D&reserved=0 go to specifications 9-33 V DC, 0.28 A (i assume at a nominal 24V) so this should be able to run from the same battery as your already existing radio and the gps servus markus Am 16.03.2022 um 21:20 schrieb WILLIAM A WENRICH: > I don?t know the weight and power requirements. I am just going by what > I read in the papers and see on the news. If someone has more > information on the specifics, please let me know. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* markus baur > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 16, 2022 2:12:29 PM > *To:* WILLIAM A WENRICH > *Subject:* Re: [LMB] OT: regulations > it does that happily in gliders > > servus > > markus > > Am 16.03.2022 um 20:52 schrieb WILLIAM A WENRICH: >> Balloons don?t have engines and from why I gather the equipment won?t run on batteries. >> >> William A Wenrich >> >> * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Harvey Fishman >> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 1:48:39 PM >> To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. >> Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: regulations >> >> Why can't the transponder be used in a balloon? There is nothing sacred >> about aircraft power; it is straight old 28 Volts DC and/or 115 Volts AC >> 400 hertz. As long as the balloon has suitable power, the transponder >> should be usable. >> >> Harvey >> >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" >> To: "Dendarri List" >> Bcc: fishman at panix.com >> Sent: 3/16/2022 3:42:33 PM >> Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations >> >>> I just read a news story that says we might have dodged a bullet on the Albuquerque International Hot Air Balloon Fiesta for this year. >>> The FAA had put out a new rule that all aircraft, including balloons, use a particular transponder. This transponder uses aircraft power and can't be used on a balloon. >>> The story stated that an agreement had been reached for this year, 2022. >>> I have heard of this kind of thing happening before. IIRC, the FAA was going to require fuel tanks to be pressurized with nitrogen. This would require a high pressure source of nitrogen. As an alternative, the airlines proposed using an oxygen concentrator in reverse to lower the oxygen level in the fuel tanks. >>> >>> William A Wenrich >>> >>> * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. >>> >>> -- >>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C299281b98e5b40e84d2108da078c93c3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830597599836543%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=QDAwrJoRqdTiMoH4o%2BDqF8eGAjZuT0ucX%2FheY9ZTiWM%3D&reserved=0 > >> >> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C299281b98e5b40e84d2108da078c93c3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830597599836543%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=QDAwrJoRqdTiMoH4o%2BDqF8eGAjZuT0ucX%2FheY9ZTiWM%3D&reserved=0 > > > > -- > markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg > schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 > a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at > austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E > > a portrait: > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abcgallery.com%2FA%2Farcimboldo%2Farcimboldo9.html&data=04%7C01%7C%7C299281b98e5b40e84d2108da078c93c3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830597599836543%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=4Tw0%2B4OtomnKCHdfo785MWKGQQSGr3bDFJ%2BhBybgGkM%3D&reserved=0 > > > "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abcgallery.com%2FA%2Farcimboldo%2Farcimboldo9.html&data=04%7C01%7C%7C299281b98e5b40e84d2108da078c93c3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830597599836543%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=4Tw0%2B4OtomnKCHdfo785MWKGQQSGr3bDFJ%2BhBybgGkM%3D&reserved=0 "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From baur at chello.at Wed Mar 16 21:00:30 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 22:00:30 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations In-Reply-To: References: <3fafcca5-2542-9005-1185-395b8f802e50@chello.at> Message-ID: <9e7be4e5-ce77-7e73-6fbb-abfacbfad3a5@chello.at> hmm .. lets say we run on AA - 16 cells for 24 V alkaline capacity would be 2 Ah per cell .. 7 hours of running time (should be enough for a regular flight) but i am pretty sure that that there are 12 and 24 V battery packs for gliders with a supplementary type certificate yep - forex: https://glider-battery.eu/product/glider-pilot-full-pack/ -------------- i do not see a technical problem - the problem is the schedule for this change servus markus Am 16.03.2022 um 21:44 schrieb WILLIAM A WENRICH: > Everything I have seen uses AA or AAA. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* markus baur > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 16, 2022 2:35:50 PM > *To:* WILLIAM A WENRICH ; Discussion of the works of > Lois McMaster Bujold. > *Subject:* Re: [LMB] OT: regulations > for example (looked for ADS-B capable transponders for gliders) > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftrig-avionics.com%2Fproduct%2Fcompact-transponder%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7C299281b98e5b40e84d2108da078c93c3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830597599836543%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=i%2BvR9khNEECdHg9KhBjfPXDZFArzLI96YdMHZIVmT2c%3D&reserved=0 > > > go to specifications > > 9-33 V DC, 0.28 A (i assume at a nominal 24V) > > so this should be able to run from the same battery as your already > existing radio and the gps > > servus > > markus > > Am 16.03.2022 um 21:20 schrieb WILLIAM A WENRICH: >> I don?t know the weight and power requirements. I am just going by what >> I read in the papers and see on the news. If someone has more >> information on the specifics, please let me know. >> >> William A Wenrich >> >>?? * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* markus baur >> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 16, 2022 2:12:29 PM >> *To:* WILLIAM A WENRICH >> *Subject:* Re: [LMB] OT: regulations >> it does that happily in gliders >> >> servus >> >> markus >> >> Am 16.03.2022 um 20:52 schrieb WILLIAM A WENRICH: >>> Balloons don?t have engines and from why I gather the equipment won?t run on batteries. >>> >>> William A Wenrich >>> >>>??? *?? A sinner dependent on God?s grace. >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Harvey Fishman >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 1:48:39 PM >>> To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. >>> Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: regulations >>> >>> Why can't the transponder be used in a balloon? There is nothing sacred >>> about aircraft power; it is straight old 28 Volts DC and/or 115 Volts AC >>> 400 hertz. As long as the balloon has suitable power, the transponder >>> should be usable. >>> >>> Harvey >>> >>> ------ Original Message ------ >>> From: "WILLIAM A WENRICH" >>> To: "Dendarri List" >>> Bcc: fishman at panix.com >>> Sent: 3/16/2022 3:42:33 PM >>> Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations >>> >>>> I just read a news story that says we might have dodged a bullet on the Albuquerque International Hot Air Balloon Fiesta for this year. >>>> The FAA had put out a new rule that all aircraft, including balloons, use a particular transponder. This transponder uses aircraft power and can't be used on a balloon. >>>> The story stated that an agreement had been reached for this year, 2022. >>>> I have heard of this kind of thing happening before. IIRC, the FAA was going to require fuel tanks to be pressurized with nitrogen. This would require a high pressure source of nitrogen. As an alternative, the airlines proposed using an oxygen concentrator in reverse to lower the oxygen level in the fuel tanks. >>>> >>>> William A Wenrich >>>> >>>>??? *?? A sinner dependent on God?s grace. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >>>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C299281b98e5b40e84d2108da078c93c3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830597599836543%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=QDAwrJoRqdTiMoH4o%2BDqF8eGAjZuT0ucX%2FheY9ZTiWM%3D&reserved=0 > > >> > >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com >>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C299281b98e5b40e84d2108da078c93c3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830597599836543%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=QDAwrJoRqdTiMoH4o%2BDqF8eGAjZuT0ucX%2FheY9ZTiWM%3D&reserved=0 > > >> > >> >> >> -- >> markus baur???????????????????? SCA: markus von brixlegg >> schluesselgasse 3/5???????????? tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 >> a-1040 wien???????????????????? email: baur at chello.at >> austria/europe????????????????? icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E >> >> a portrait: >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abcgallery.com%2FA%2Farcimboldo%2Farcimboldo9.html&data=04%7C01%7C%7C299281b98e5b40e84d2108da078c93c3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830597599836543%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=4Tw0%2B4OtomnKCHdfo785MWKGQQSGr3bDFJ%2BhBybgGkM%3D&reserved=0 > > >> > >> >> "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." > > > -- > markus baur???????????????????? SCA: markus von brixlegg > schluesselgasse 3/5???????????? tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 > a-1040 wien???????????????????? email: baur at chello.at > austria/europe????????????????? icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E > > a portrait: > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abcgallery.com%2FA%2Farcimboldo%2Farcimboldo9.html&data=04%7C01%7C%7C299281b98e5b40e84d2108da078c93c3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830597599836543%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=4Tw0%2B4OtomnKCHdfo785MWKGQQSGr3bDFJ%2BhBybgGkM%3D&reserved=0 > > > "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 21:09:24 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 16:09:24 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Covid In-Reply-To: References: <02a101d83953$e5f9ece0$b1edc6a0$@gordonj.net> <43A09D50-B13A-4663-8B19-D13BCD55283F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Plenty of bed rest and plenty of fluids should help. I hope you get better soon. On Wed, Mar 16, 2022, 2:47 PM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Hope you get better soon. The monoclonal antibody treatment worked well > for my son, Brian. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Alex Kwan > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 12:54:25 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Covid > > Hello, > > > On Mar 16, 2022, at 12:35, Gordon Jackson wrote: > > > > Well, in spite of 3 vaccinations and usual precautions I have Covid. > Visited my GP last week, I wonder if I got infected there? Fortunately, I > meet NHS criteria for Monoclonal Antibody treatment. So I got that > (Sotromivab). > > Here's hoping for the best > > Gordon > > Eeek! I hope you get well soon! > > little Alex > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ca3b0a7a4b12d49e1f13908da077e6bf6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830536799717891%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=7%2Bgx1ToS9Fr88AlWswWhMLG1Ck%2B%2FdPOkWDRj15QU9tA%3D&reserved=0 > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 23:39:58 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 18:39:58 -0500 Subject: [LMB] ot: Leslie Fish's latest album In-Reply-To: <3907578c-4597-716f-e61a-425e5331a7c7@mindspring.com> References: <3907578c-4597-716f-e61a-425e5331a7c7@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Saw it, bought it, loved it. On Wed, Mar 16, 2022, 2:41 PM wrote: > Leslie Fish's latest album, "Sea of Dreams," is streaming: > > > https://open.spotify.com/album/0SCGuO5g3mVqoFslwayAc9?si=R_Ctnzl6TlW92djJx4lwKQ&nd=1 > > https://music.apple.com/us/album/sea-of-dreams/1607237195 > > > https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ljuPOh9u3GxoZAOlf58qe1noIK854N6Ac > > Digital downloads and cds may be purchased here: > https://www.prometheus-music.com/product/sea-of-dreams-leslie-fish/ > > Squee! > > Jerrie > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From fred.fredex at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 00:31:13 2022 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 20:31:13 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: depending on how much power you need, you may need a significant battery pack. Imagine a 12V (or two) car battery on board. can you say "ballast" ? Those puppies are heavy! On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 3:57 PM Howard Brazee wrote: > > > > On Mar 16, 2022, at 1:52 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > > > Balloons don?t have engines and from why I gather the equipment won?t > run on batteries. > > The dawn patrol has lights, so why not transponders? > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From wawenri at msn.com Thu Mar 17 00:42:55 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 00:42:55 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One other possible problem is cost. The FAA will pay for nothing. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Fred Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 6:31:13 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: regulations depending on how much power you need, you may need a significant battery pack. Imagine a 12V (or two) car battery on board. can you say "ballast" ? Those puppies are heavy! On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 3:57 PM Howard Brazee wrote: > > > > On Mar 16, 2022, at 1:52 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > > > Balloons don?t have engines and from why I gather the equipment won?t > run on batteries. > > The dawn patrol has lights, so why not transponders? > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cc0098ad3078946370f8908da07ad8ddf%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830739229500396%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=XSru8U0z1FpCoQiQVMafZyWgLAg1sBdT8pr9os3YQGw%3D&reserved=0 > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cc0098ad3078946370f8908da07ad8ddf%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637830739229500396%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=XSru8U0z1FpCoQiQVMafZyWgLAg1sBdT8pr9os3YQGw%3D&reserved=0 From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Mar 17 01:18:57 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 01:18:57 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Richard Molpus Maybe signs on the doors? On Wednesday, March 16, 2022, 09:25:18 AM CDT, Gwynne Powell wrote: (snip) Ok - so how does Ivan know all this about the most secret, highly guarded part of ImpSec? He knows his way to the place, he knows exactly what's in there - did Miles bring him to look at the Soltoxin? Or to see some of Miles's captured weapons? (snip) Gwynne: He's in the outer office area, I doubt he can see any of the doors. And this is ImpSec, would they have a lot of signs everywhere? They certainly don't let non-ImpSec personnel wander around; even Ivan is given an escort. And Ivan knows all the correct names for them, so fast and easily. It just seemed to me that he was fairly familiar with it all. From baur at chello.at Thu Mar 17 06:30:48 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 07:30:48 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hence the lithium battery for gliders i posted .. significantly lighter than a lead / acid battery servus markus Am 17.03.2022 um 01:31 schrieb Fred: > depending on how much power you need, you may need a significant battery > pack. Imagine a 12V (or two) car battery on board. can you say "ballast" ? > Those puppies are heavy! > > On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 3:57 PM Howard Brazee wrote: > >> >> >>> On Mar 16, 2022, at 1:52 PM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >>> >>> Balloons don?t have engines and from why I gather the equipment won?t >> run on batteries. >> >> The dawn patrol has lights, so why not transponders? >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From proto at panix.com Thu Mar 17 11:43:21 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 07:43:21 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 16, 2022, at 9:18 PM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > From: Richard Molpus > > Maybe signs on the doors? > > On Wednesday, March 16, 2022, 09:25:18 AM CDT, Gwynne Powell wrote: > (snip) > Ok - so how does Ivan know all this about the most secret, highly > guarded part of ImpSec? He knows his way to the place, he knows > exactly what's in there - did Miles bring him to look at the Soltoxin? > Or to see some of Miles's captured weapons? > (snip) > > Gwynne: He's in the outer office area, I doubt he can see any of the doors. > And this is ImpSec, would they have a lot of signs everywhere? They > certainly don't let non-ImpSec personnel wander around; even Ivan is > given an escort. And Ivan knows all the correct names for them, so fast > and easily. It just seemed to me that he was fairly familiar with it all. He is doing things by order of an Auditor. If he needs a guide he gets one. ? In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over." --tweet by British columnist, Dan Hodges, June 15, 2015? From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Mar 17 17:04:33 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:04:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 23 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So... Ivan has to requisition some helpers from Ops, not ImpSec, and do the inventory. Miles waits outside, with witnesses, just in case there's any questions about his involvement. Ivan makes the big discovery faster than Miles would have done. Miles would have started with all the nastiest room, but Ivan left the worst to last, and so didn't have to do them. '...sometimes, he had to admit, Ivan was not such an idiot as he feigned.' (So Miles DOES know that Ivan isn't an idiot - it's just protective colouration!) Also kudos to Ivan for recognising that this is IT. After all, he could just do the inventory to see what's missing, but he wants to know why 'Komarran Virus' is in Weapons, and not Biologicals. Miles rounds up his team again - which is mainly Ivan and Canaba. It took the Municipal Guard to get Canaba out of bed and deliver him to ImpSec. Welcome to Barrayar, Canaba. The virus was actually a little present from Duv's father, meant to take Simon out when Mark assassinated Aral. Which gives a minor connection to Miles, yes. But Miles knew nothing about it. Now Miles understands the frameup - they were meant to sort out the virus first, discover that it was there, and then check the entry logs and find Miles. (As usual, Miles did everything back- wards. And inside the box.... three little capsules. Should have been five. Almost an anticlimax, just those little capsules and three empty spaces. Miles sends Canaba off to the ImpSec lab to study them, with Ivan to watch/guard/witness/wrangle. Haroche had gone home to sleep (I wonder how much he slept), Miles is feeling a bit tired after being awake all night. Haroche is forced to admit that it's an inside job - oh how sad he is that it's his people doing this. He tries to implicate Mark, but that doesn't get off the ground. ? So... why Miles? Was the whole plot set up to destroy him? Or Simon? Or both? Haroche says, "When you know who, you'll know why." Miles thinks that when he knows why, he'll know who. Both of them are right, really. Haroche doesn't like their quarry being called a killer. Miles calls him an assassin. They both agree that they can't stop until the assassin is caught (or someone is, anyway, is what Haroche is probably thinking.) Miles has turned the assassin's timetable upside down. It took him three days. Haroche must be scrambling on the inside - and he's just realised why Miles was so favoured, and possibly that it was a reasonable idea. Haroche is complimentary... is he starting to plant the hook? So, back to Vorkosigan House. a chat with Cordelia, but first a word with Simon to update him. Oh look, Alys has dropped by... in last night's dress with her hair tumbled down her back. Proving that Miles isn't always a brilliant investigator. Put the clues together, Miles! Simon is happy for Alys to hear all this top-secret information. Simon also can't remember how to find the front door without help. But he's still Simon Illyan, so... what the heck. Simon can't remember taking a capsule, or seeing a puff of smoke. Once, he could have. Simon also points out that Duv is going to be under suspicion. Not much they can do about that, but he has no suspicious thoughts about Duv. A lovely long sleep, then Miles checks with the lab, Canaba is still working. And a call from Ivan - the virus is back in the storage room, can he give the virus to someone else and go home now? He's seriously low on sleep now. Miles gives him the rest of the day off - wow, generous. ImpMil calls, they want to put a chip in Miles's head. Brilliant timing, guys. (You know, it really did take a lot of courage for Miles to finally agree to that, after all that's happened.) He'll have to postpone for a bit, he's a little busy right now. He remembers that he's going to the Residence that evening, and tries to get a Koudelka as a partner, but they're all busy. You know, those girls were really useful as instant partners. Of course, it gave them plenty of time at the Residence. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Mar 17 17:13:24 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 17:13:24 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 23 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Miles is just so FAST. Three days to hit the jackpot in the evidence room - Haroche had no idea what he was up against. There's a big problem with investigating in ImpSec; most of the personnel have incredibly high security clearances, and they're nearly all allergic to Fast-Penta. Most of them could have known about the virus, and taken it from the store-room. And fiddled with the records, afterwards. What fun it would be to have to question them all. Simon and Alys. Cordelia will of course approve. (I think Cordelia is convinced that if people spent more time bonking there'd be peace in the world. She's probably right.) I wonder how Martin's getting on with all the new staff. I'm sure some of the armsmen will sort him out pretty quickly. From proto at panix.com Thu Mar 17 18:02:43 2022 From: proto at panix.com (WalterStuartBushell) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 14:02:43 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 23 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <257D4DD0-0DF1-4FC3-94DC-A6CC770AA9A0@panix.com> > On Mar 17, 2022, at 1:04 PM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > ok, > Alys has dropped by... in last night's dress with her > hair tumbled down her back. Proving that Miles isn't > always a brilliant investigator. Put the clues together, > Miles! Miles notes that Alys was dressed oddly formally for the time of day and she and Illyan took a long time to open the door. And Illyan came out of the bathroom hastily dressed, and her hair was in a state Miles hadn?t seen before and probably less elaborate than normal. If this were a frequent occurrence, I woulda thunk Alys would have brought morning type clothes. She was the touchstone of the apogee of taste and fashion. I mean to those in the know, a High Vor or even a regular Vor women dressed for the wrong time of day would raise eyebrows. That and the cheerful greeting leads me to believe the first time. Probably catalyzed by a talk with Cordelia. See these characters live in our minds, I even wonder about Tsipis? other activities, someone we actually see little of, mostly remotely. __ What is the difference between unethical and ethical advertising? Unethical advertising uses falsehoods to deceive the public; ethical advertising uses truth to deceive the public. Vilhjalmur Stefansson (1879 ? 1962) From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Fri Mar 18 03:40:24 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 23:40:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wednesday, March 16, 2022, 09:25:18 AM CDT, Gwynne Powell wrote: > (snip) Ok - so how does Ivan know all this about the most secret, highly > guarded part of ImpSec? He knows his way to the place, he knows exactly > what's in there - did Miles bring him to look at the Soltoxin? Or to see > some of Miles's captured weapons? Well, Ivan probably refered to Simon as Uncle Simon when younger, too ... maybe he and Miles were around as Simon and Aral traded stories about ImpSec. The existence of the Evidence Rooms and its general divisions might have been mentioned then. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Fri Mar 18 03:45:22 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 23:45:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 23 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for continuing with these excellent synopses, Gwynne! You inspired me to reread _Memory_ -- and, of course, because it's that kind of book, I read it through almost in one go. On Thu, 17 Mar 2022, Gwynne Powell wrote: > Ivan makes the big discovery faster than Miles would have done. Miles > would have started with all the nastiest room, but Ivan left the worst to > last, and so didn't have to do them. '...sometimes, he had to admit, Ivan was > not such an idiot as he feigned.' (So Miles DOES know that Ivan isn't an > idiot - it's just protective colouration!) Good catch! > He remembers that he's going to the Residence that evening, > and tries to get a Koudelka as a partner, but they're > all busy. You know, those girls were really useful as > instant partners. Of course, it gave them plenty of > time at the Residence. I'm not surprised none of the Koudelka girls wanted to marry Miles or Ivan -- by this point they probably thought of them more as brothers. And I'm not sure any of them really wanted Cordelia as a m-i-l, much as they loved her -- even Kareen stayed far away. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From litalex at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 06:16:23 2022 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 02:16:23 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 23 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, > On Mar 17, 2022, at 13:13, Gwynne Powell wrote: > Simon and Alys. Cordelia will of course approve. (I think Cordelia > is convinced that if people spent more time bonking there'd be > peace in the world. She's probably right.) As they used to say, "make love, not war?? little Alex From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 23:09:59 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 19:09:59 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Covid In-Reply-To: References: <02a101d83953$e5f9ece0$b1edc6a0$@gordonj.net> <43A09D50-B13A-4663-8B19-D13BCD55283F@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've had worse colds than omicron. Here's hoping for a swift recovery. Matt G. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Mar 19 03:10:26 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 03:10:26 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Before the party Miles reports progress so far to Gregor, then they try to smile nicely before they face the public - 'Think of Laisa' works pretty well, for Gregor at least. Colonel Lord Vortala the younger (I'd love to know what that title is about) is going quietly crazy doing security (Simon used to do it AND run ImpSec, Haroche isn't attempting that.) Gregor misses Simon. Gregor collects Laisa from Alys (she's spending a LOT of time with her, steep learning curve.) Cordelia sends Alys off to look after Simon. (I love the idea of Cordelia as a chaperone. Really, that's scary and hilarious at the same time.) Like Simon, Alys has always been on duty at these events, too. Alys has also - finally - dragged Simon to a decent tailor and got him into a much sharper suit that he's worn before. Cordelia comments that Simon's lack of dress sense has driven Alys crazy for years. (So how long has this been going on...?) Ivan is escorting Martya; Delia is with Duv. Martya mentions that Delia is very accomplished socially (she doesn't spill things) and seems to be apprenticed to Lady Alys. (Some good possibilities there for the next generation.) Delia has decided on Duv, he just doesn't know it yet. "Some men you have to hit with a brick to get their attention. Some you have to hit with a big brick." - those words of Martya's echo through the rest of the novel. Miles mooches around; without a partner he can't dance much. He and Ivan watch Simon and Alys dancing, and Miles is hit by a big brick. Simon and Alys are sleeping together. In Vorkosigan House. His first reaction is to admire Simon's courage (and considering Simon's scary Nexus-wide reputation, that says a LOT about Alys - which Haroche should have known.) He doesn't tell Ivan. Some things you need to discover for yourself. (And besides, this is NOT the venue for Ivan to have a hissy fit.) Miles chats with Duv at the buffet table. Duv is fiercely attached to Delia. He claims she's a good prospect, great political connections, etc, but he's actually very emotionally connected too - and Duv is rarely emotional, so when he is he's scarily intense. Duv doesn't want Miles to help. In any way; hardly surprising. He's planning to propose on the way home - he's learned from his mistakes, he's not going to waste time with this one. Miles wanders around, glares a lot, and then goes to have a dance with Laisa. He's enjoying a mirror dance and trying not to stare at her cleavage (Laisa must have a lot of 'my eyes are up HERE' moments) when he sees Galeni with an ImpSec colonel and two guards. Delia is about to attack the whole lot of them, by the looks of things (and she'd probably take at least two out of three of them down, too.) The guards are starting to reach for stunners (with Gregor there??? WOW things are getting dangerous) so Miles dumps Laisa and heads for the fun. Too many people have noticed this already. Haroche has sent them to arrest Duv. AT THE RESIDENCE??? No charge specified, just get him right away. Why has Haroche moved without informing Miles? Ivan and Martya arrive. Haroche is due soon (why isn't he with them? He sent them, he could have come with them.) Miles tells Duv to go quietly and he'll sort it out. Duv isn't happy, but making a fuss here, in front of the Emperor, won't help. Ever. One priority is to get this settled before Delia dives in (and she'd have Martya for backup - and I bet she fights REALLY dirty.) Once around the corner they want to handcuff Duv, Miles says no. He finds out the real charge; treason. Ohhhh that's not good. Duv has enormous self-control here; he agrees to go with them and let Miles sort it out. Miles runs into a posse: Gregor, Laisa, Delia and Cordelia. They all want answers and action from Miles. Delia is so angry she interrupts Gregor - these people are not happy, and fairly explosive. NOW Haroche turns up, when Duv is safely out of the way. Gregor is quietly livid, although Haroche probably doesn't realise that. So... Haroche just found some important information and wanted to get Duv away from Gregor and Laisa. (He's been around them several times recently with no problems, why was tonight so urgent?) Of course Cordelia, Laisa and Delia have to go and let the men do men stuff. Cordelia explains to Laisa that they'll find out later - it's a dumb system but you can make it work. (And I love it that she says this right in front of them.) Meanwhile the women have to smile and circulate and stop the rumours. Or, as Cordelia says, lie. Alys and Cordelia will show Laisa what to do. (Cordelia is a lot better at the social stuff than Alys admits, but she only does it when she wants to.) Haroche has his report, with pictures. They couldn't get a line on the frame-up of Miles, until Haroche thought about checking the retina scan - gee, how clever, wonder where he got that idea - and his scan before the cryo wasn't the same as post-cryo. The Evidence Room scan was the Before. Haroche proudly announces that Miles is now cleared; he was never accused. His team has traced the alterations in the time logs to Galeni's comconsole. Well, Galeni or someone using his comconsole. Well, anyone could have used his comconsole. But.. he has motive and opportunity. It fits. His father set up the virus, Mark killed Galeni's father, and then there was the romantic angle... which Gregor didn't know about. Dammit. And Haroche has the call Duv made after the betrothal, when he was a bit... upset. Miles had forgotten that ImpSec monitored most of the coms in Vorkosigan House - well, it had always been under Simon's control, so it didn't matter. Miles tries to point out that there's a big difference between saying things to someone's face, and doing a devious secret plan. Haroche, with a fake smile, praises Miles for loyalty to his friend; cutting away Miles's ability to help Duv. Miles says this is all smoke and mirrors (is his subconscious trying to do something?) Duv would never have done the attack on Simon, or framed Miles. Besides, what motive did Duv have against Simon? Haroche falls back on the tired old Komarran terrorist explanation. Miles heads for ImpSec to study the proof, but - great timing - his brain explodes on the way home, another seizure. Poor Martin is in a worse state than Miles. He's exhausted, bleeding and a total mess, so he goes home. Time to regroup. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Mar 19 03:30:32 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 03:30:32 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 24 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Plenty of big bricks here. And lots of happy couples; Simon and Alys, Gregor and Laisa, Duv and Delia... love makes the world better. And then the clumsy arrest. And the clever way Haroche makes Miles's objections look like he's just protecting a friend. That 'I'm just a rough old prole' routine makes you forget that Haroche is also really, really smart. And then there's the comparison between Miles and Simon. They've each just lost a huge part of their identity. And jobs that they've done for a large part of their lives. And neither has a plan for the future. Each of them was also hollowed out by their job; Naismith took everything from Lord Vorkosigan, Simon had basically no life at all apart from his work - he lived in the building, he had one bag of possessions when he left (and most of that would have been his uniform.) So after the crash, Simon is having visits from his friends, a romance with Alys, concerts and dancing - he's making a happy life. Miles should be paying attention to that; it is possible to go on, just as Harra told him. And I love the imagery of the big brick. Quite a few people in this novel need a brick now and then. Oh, and spare a thought for poor Martin. He had no idea if Miles was having a seizure, or was poisoned, or whatever. This poor kid is really getting some interesting training - by the time he signs up he'll have an interesting skillset. From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Sat Mar 19 03:41:13 2022 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 20:41:13 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 18, 2022, at 8:10 PM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > > Before the party Miles reports progress so far to Gregor, then they > try to smile nicely before they face the public - 'Think of Laisa' works > pretty well, for Gregor at least. Colonel Lord Vortala the younger (I'd > love to know what that title is about) is going quietly crazy doing > security I always thought that Lord Vortala the younger was the oldest son of Lord Vortala (whose grandfather was probably the Count Vortala in _Shards of Honor_ and who was also still alive in _The Warrior?s Apprentice_). From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sat Mar 19 03:51:59 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 22:51:59 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: After I first read this chapter, I asked my best-beloved about that line about "some men need to get hit with a brick. Others need to get hit with a BIG brick," and asked her which category I fell into. She smiled and said that was information she was keeping to herself. On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 10:42 PM Robert Woodward < Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net> wrote: > > > > On Mar 18, 2022, at 8:10 PM, Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > > > > > > > Before the party Miles reports progress so far to Gregor, then they > > try to smile nicely before they face the public - 'Think of Laisa' works > > pretty well, for Gregor at least. Colonel Lord Vortala the younger (I'd > > love to know what that title is about) is going quietly crazy doing > > security > > I always thought that Lord Vortala the younger was the oldest son of Lord > Vortala (whose grandfather was probably the Count Vortala in _Shards of > Honor_ and who was also still alive in _The Warrior?s Apprentice_). > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From wawenri at msn.com Sat Mar 19 14:42:02 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 14:42:02 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on Message-ID: I remember the phrase "a buck a bit" from MANY years ago. Today I saw an advertisement for a 16Tb SSD for $119.80. BOGO! William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. From dbernat at gol.com Sat Mar 19 15:03:21 2022 From: dbernat at gol.com (dbernat) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 00:03:21 +0900 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > I remember the phrase "a buck a bit" from MANY years ago. > Today I saw an advertisement for a 16Tb SSD for $119.80. BOGO! Have SSDs reached 16Tb capacity? From pouncer at aol.com Sat Mar 19 15:51:32 2022 From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 10:51:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 24 References: <4b779dfa-a2d1-c341-c77a-0b007429e16b.ref@aol.com> Message-ID: <4b779dfa-a2d1-c341-c77a-0b007429e16b@aol.com> Gwynne Powell says: >It fits. His father set up the virus, >Mark killed Galeni's father, and then there was the romantic >angle... which Gregor didn't know about. Dammit. And >Haroche has the call Duv made after the betrothal, when he >was a bit... upset. Miles had forgotten that ImpSec monitored >most of the coms in Vorkosigan House Does it fit? Surely the angry call was made AFTER the treasonous attack on Simon. Is the claim that Duv simply revealed his long-laid motives and plots in the "last straw" moment of romantic disappointment? Seems to me that particular piece of the jigsaw puzzle is being hammered in where it doesn't quite "fit" as well as the prosecution would hope. -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com From lmb at matija.com Sat Mar 19 18:37:55 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 18:37:55 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 19/03/2022 15:03, dbernat wrote: > WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > >> I remember the phrase "a buck a bit" from MANY years ago. >> Today I saw an advertisement for a 16Tb SSD for $119.80. BOGO! > > Have SSDs reached 16Tb capacity? Not anywhere I've ever shopped. That looked like a great price, and I wanted to snatch one for myself. The largest I've found right now was 8TB, for 700+ euro. Even the rotating rust disks (which have reached 20TB as far as I've seen, so the 16TB are off the top-off-the-line premium price), are at least three times the price William quoted. William, where did you see that deal? And can I borrow your time machine? From domelouann at gmail.com Sat Mar 19 19:21:52 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 14:21:52 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 19, 2022, 1:38 PM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On 19/03/2022 15:03, dbernat wrote: > > 16TB are off the top-off-the-line premium price), are at least three > times the price William quoted. > > William, where did you see that deal? And can I borrow your time machine? > Me too! > From wawenri at msn.com Sat Mar 19 23:41:27 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 23:41:27 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, it was a Facebook ad. I did find https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09TK7ST4X?tag=amz-mkt-chr-us-20&ascsubtag=1ba00-01000-a0049-win10-other-smile-us000-pcomp-feature-scomp-feature-scomp&ref=aa_scomp&th=1 at amazon. William A Wenrich Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. -----Original Message----- From: Lois-Bujold On Behalf Of Louann Miller Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2022 1:22 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on On Sat, Mar 19, 2022, 1:38 PM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On 19/03/2022 15:03, dbernat wrote: > > 16TB are off the top-off-the-line premium price), are at least three > times the price William quoted. > > William, where did you see that deal? And can I borrow your time machine? > Me too! > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C07bbc664e3e34c3c3b6b08da09ddc5e8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637833145358335888%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=khBCHK6o9Tu%2B1u3FYYNANfnA6btT1nFrOSeXs1h6aTU%3D&reserved=0 From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Sat Mar 19 23:41:25 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 18:41:25 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: While reading the book I get the feeling the rooms were legendary in some circles. I also have the feeling that when Ivan said, "The Auditor sent me," the Impsec guards jumped too with alacrity getting Ivan to that Auditor ASAP, considering that Miles had been a thorn in their sides for several days. On Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 10:40 PM alayne--- via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On Wednesday, March 16, 2022, 09:25:18 AM CDT, Gwynne Powell < > gwynnepowell at hotmail.com> wrote: > > (snip) Ok - so how does Ivan know all this about the most secret, highly > > guarded part of ImpSec? He knows his way to the place, he knows exactly > > what's in there - did Miles bring him to look at the Soltoxin? Or to see > > some of Miles's captured weapons? > > Well, Ivan probably refered to Simon as Uncle Simon when younger, too ... > maybe he and Miles were around as Simon and Aral traded stories about > ImpSec. The existence of the Evidence Rooms and its general divisions > might have been mentioned then. > > Alayne > > -- > Alayne McGregor > alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca > > What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We > need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the > institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate > and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From agnes at charrel.net Sun Mar 20 00:01:34 2022 From: agnes at charrel.net (Agnes Charrel-Berthillier) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 17:01:34 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/19/22 16:41, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Sorry, it was a Facebook ad. I did find https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09TK7ST4X?tag=amz-mkt-chr-us-20&ascsubtag=1ba00-01000-a0049-win10-other-smile-us000-pcomp-feature-scomp-feature-scomp&ref=aa_scomp&th=1 at amazon. > It is clearly (per the most recent reviews) a scam. Kudos to whoever managed to figure out how to hijack the product number for a discontinued yet highly rated item (wooden letters) and attach their fraudulent product description to it. Screenshot it, it will probably soon be gone. Evergreen life lesson: read the fine print before shelling out the money, and beware if the price sounds too good to be true... I do wonder what the targeting was for the FB ad. Agn?s From rgmolpus at flash.net Sun Mar 20 00:49:32 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 00:49:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2002629146.503296.1647737373001@mail.yahoo.com> That the advertising copy describes it as being both USB 1 and USB 3 is suspicious.... On Saturday, March 19, 2022, 07:01:54 PM CDT, Agnes Charrel-Berthillier wrote: On 3/19/22 16:41, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Sorry, it was a Facebook ad. I did find https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09TK7ST4X?tag=amz-mkt-chr-us-20&ascsubtag=1ba00-01000-a0049-win10-other-smile-us000-pcomp-feature-scomp-feature-scomp&ref=aa_scomp&th=1 at amazon. > It is clearly (per the most recent reviews) a scam. Kudos to whoever managed to figure out how to hijack the product number for a discontinued yet highly rated item (wooden letters) and attach their fraudulent product description to it. Screenshot it, it will probably soon be gone. Evergreen life lesson: read the fine print before shelling out the money, and beware if the price sounds too good to be true... I do wonder what the targeting was for the FB ad. Agn?s -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Mar 20 04:34:24 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 04:34:24 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Pouncer Gwynne Powell says: >It fits. His father set up the virus, >Mark killed Galeni's father, and then there was the romantic >angle... which Gregor didn't know about. Dammit. And >Haroche has the call Duv made after the betrothal, when he >was a bit... upset. Miles had forgotten that ImpSec monitored >most of the coms in Vorkosigan House Does it fit? Surely the angry call was made AFTER the treasonous attack on Simon. Is the claim that Duv simply revealed his long-laid motives and plots in the "last straw" moment of romantic disappointment? Seems to me that particular piece of the jigsaw puzzle is being hammered in where it doesn't quite "fit" as well as the prosecution would hope. Gwynne: True, but remember that Haroche has been taken by surprise twice. His Plan A was that they'd think it was just natural chip deterioration, Simon retires, and it's all done. He set up Plan B, a lovely frame-up of Miles, as a spot of revenge on the Vor stuff-up, just in case. Then Miles descended as an Auditor - surprise one - and found out it was sabotage. Haroche thought he'd have a few weeks to sort out a new backup, but MIles found the frame in three days - second surprise. Now he has no Plan B, and things are moving fast. So he jumps on the next best choice, and throws a quick frame-up together, rush job. He figured that making a very public arrest and rushing things through, singing 'Komarran rebel' loudly, would be enough. And I'll bet that a quick suicide in his cell would be arranged, all done, problem over. Nobody was meant to have time to look too closely. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Mar 20 04:36:05 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 04:36:05 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ________________________________ From: Raymond Collins While reading the book I get the feeling the rooms were legendary in some circles. I also have the feeling that when Ivan said, "The Auditor sent me," the Impsec guards jumped too with alacrity getting Ivan to that Auditor ASAP, considering that Miles had been a thorn in their sides for several days. Gwynne: Good points - that explains it all really well. From lmb at matija.com Sun Mar 20 05:08:16 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 05:08:16 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18af74c6-a4cb-f227-82d0-fcf853f2c3d9@matija.com> On 19/03/2022 23:41, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Sorry, it was a Facebook ad. I did find https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09TK7ST4X?tag=amz-mkt-chr-us-20&ascsubtag=1ba00-01000-a0049-win10-other-smile-us000-pcomp-feature-scomp-feature-scomp&ref=aa_scomp&th=1 at amazon. > > William A Wenrich > Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Looking at the "Questions and answers" section, the first question listed for me is: Question:Is this really a 16tb hard drive? Answer:No, it's a scam. By S. Bufe on March 15, 2022 From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 05:26:32 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 00:26:32 -0500 Subject: [LMB] It's late at night and I feel silly... Message-ID: Am I the only one who, when the book currently under discussion comes up as a topic, pictures Miles singing: "Memory All alone in the moonlight I can smile at the old days I was beautiful then I remember The time I knew what happiness was Let the memory Live again!" Hmmmm...Miles Vorkosigan, the Musical? Maybe we fillers should put our heads together! From iiradned at hotmail.com Sun Mar 20 07:53:29 2022 From: iiradned at hotmail.com (Patrick Vera) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 07:53:29 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on Message-ID: There are SSDs at 16, 32, 60 and 100 TB, but these are all very expensive and mainly named at data centers. The only consumer focused SSD is a 15 TB in a 2.5 inch form factor from Team Group at USD3,300. The following are SSDs aimed at data centers. Samsung makes a 16TB SSD about the same size as an M.2 drive but uses a different connector and only works in its own proprietary servers. Intel makes a 32TB SSD again in its own proprietary form factor and servers. Nimbus makes SSDs in a standard 3.5 inch form factor in capacities of up to 100TB, that one costs USD40,000 per drive. From mathews55 at msn.com Sun Mar 20 10:51:06 2022 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 10:51:06 +0000 Subject: [LMB] It's late at night and I feel silly... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Me-OW! ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Eric Oppen Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2022 11:26 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: [LMB] It's late at night and I feel silly... Am I the only one who, when the book currently under discussion comes up as a topic, pictures Miles singing: "Memory All alone in the moonlight I can smile at the old days I was beautiful then I remember The time I knew what happiness was Let the memory Live again!" Hmmmm...Miles Vorkosigan, the Musical? Maybe we fillers should put our heads together! -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From wawenri at msn.com Sun Mar 20 13:44:14 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:44:14 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: <18af74c6-a4cb-f227-82d0-fcf853f2c3d9@matija.com> References: <18af74c6-a4cb-f227-82d0-fcf853f2c3d9@matija.com> Message-ID: Thanks. However, that raise the point of why Amazon is participating in a scam? William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2022 11:08:16 PM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Cc: Matija Grabnar Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on On 19/03/2022 23:41, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Sorry, it was a Facebook ad. I did find https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fdp%2FB09TK7ST4X%3Ftag%3Damz-mkt-chr-us-20%26ascsubtag%3D1ba00-01000-a0049-win10-other-smile-us000-pcomp-feature-scomp-feature-scomp%26ref%3Daa_scomp%26th%3D1&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cee8d221385b742f6ae3f08da0a2fab71%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637833497101946673%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=uwqP9xm%2FKdMIex3IxOD0U0zG8cmvE4HAFx%2B7UdzmClw%3D&reserved=0 at amazon. > > William A Wenrich > Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Looking at the "Questions and answers" section, the first question listed for me is: Question:Is this really a 16tb hard drive? Answer:No, it's a scam. By S. Bufe on March 15, 2022 -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cee8d221385b742f6ae3f08da0a2fab71%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637833497101946673%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=lqyfMrpAIZ9Den7OnmZXph8Sf6JCLiR6txwFCJOsolI%3D&reserved=0 From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Mar 20 13:57:27 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:57:27 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 25 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Miles wakes up miserable and in pain - not so different from most days lately. He really needs to get his head fixed. He spent the morning with a lot of coffee and Haroche's report. The evidence is thin, nothing really conclusive, but it fits together well enough. Canaba calls, wanting to go home. (Miles does tend to leave people in places and forget them. Ivan and now Canaba. They soldier bravely on while Miles eats, sleeps, seizes up, etc.) Canaba reports - yes, this is the stuff that took Simon down. One useful piece of information; the bugs are carried by an outer coating that dissolves on contact. So it was released into the air, and inhaled. He didn't know about the coating before, because obviously it was gone before the bugs got to the chip. Haroche messages Miles and asks, very grovelly, if the Lord Auditor would mind dropping by his office when he has lordly time... Miles gives Haroche a copy of Canaba's data. Handy. Miles doesn't think the new frame is right, he's sure Duv is innocent. Haroche is very happy with the frame, everything fits, and nobody else is a good option. The perfect crime - Haroche says it's one that is never discovered at all. You were so close, Haroche. Haroche says that the frame of Miles was flawed, this new one is better. There's a bit of yes-we're-in-the-same-business chat, but Miles is sure Duv is innocent, Haroche is pushing the guilty verdict. He wants a court-martial, nice neat guilty verdict. Miles realises that he can keep the case going forever, over-rule the court martial, whatever. But it's not a solution. He pushes for Haroche to keep investigating. Haroche basically refuses. Miles mentions that the new Empress won't be happy about this. Haroche adds, "She seems a very nice young woman, and it gives me no pleasure to think this may cause her distress, but I took my oath to Gregor." Which is true about the oath, but again shows his serious lack of insight, he's written her off as a sweet nothing. She's smart, she's part of the biggest family business empire on Komarr, she's on finance committees and is very well-versed in all things financial. She's more than a tossed-away 'nice young woman'. Haroche is busy all through this meeting trying to find a way to shut Miles down. First, just push Duv as guilty - that's not getting very far. Next, let's drop that nasty treason charge. Assault on a superior officer. A year in prison, a dishonourable discharge, and we're all happy. Miles still won't go along. So... next try. Oh, Haroche has read the files, things Miles was so wonderful. He's checked with ImpMil about Miles's treatment (Does he have that right? Miles is no longer a serving officer. Does Haroche have the right to break into the confidential medical files of an Auditor????) But maybe Simon acted too fast, Miles can be fixed, a slap on the wrist would have been enough. Quinn is a woman - so obviously Haroche would rather have Miles back running things. (That man has a serious problem with women. They should feed him to Cordelia.) Miles wants to jump and laugh and scream yes and ohhh wonderful Naismith LIVES!!! He remembers Naismith's first victory. And he remembers the cost. Oh, and how about a promotion to Captain, as well. Like a nice bow on top of a hand grenade. Haroche smiles like a happy crocodile as Miles scrambles out to think about it. Vorkosigan House, back to his thinking room. He doesn't need the brandy or the knife this time, he can destroy himself without them. YES he wants the Dendarii. He craves them. Every fibre is screaming to go back. But... he'd have to stay in the tactics room. Is he fit enough, safe enough, good enough? He could have Quinn, and Taura, again. It's WONDERFUL. Except... Duv. He'd have to sacrifice Duv. Was Duv really guilty? No. He knows that. Is he still a good judge of character? Could he be wrong? Could he convince himself that he's wrong about Duv? At the beginning of his career a man died, by Miles's orders, to save others. Will the second stage of his career need another human sacrifice? People had died for him on all sorts of missions. Haroche knew that. He'd read the files, he knew how much Miles craved the Dendarii. So... this was a bribe. This is when the cold chills really start. Haroche has tried to bribe an Auditor - which is one of the most dangerous things anyone can do. Tried? Or succeeded? Miles has suddenly seen what was under the mask. Haroche is smart, and a weasel. Like Miles. Simon was good with weasels. (Did Simon's loss of control over Haroche show that Simon was past his use-by date, and should have retired anyway?) Haroche wasn't scared to bribe Miles, because he'd read the files. He knew that Miles would do anything to keep the Dendarii. No - he knew that Naismith would do anything. He knew all the buttons to push; Dendarii, promotion, praise. All the things that Naismith craved. But... Haroche was loyal to Gregor. He wasn't a terrorist, a rebel. He was dedicated to the work he'd taken over from Simon. The work he'd taken away from Simon. (Ohhhh I love that moment. This chapter is the BEST EVER. And it's Miles, thinking. He's finding his new job and identity as he solves the crime.) And Miles has finally seen the elephant. There was no second attack because the first was all that was needed. There was no terrorist, no political motive, no revenge. The comconsoles records were beautifully done because he had ALL the codes. Ok, you know it. Prove it. Because it's the only way to save Duv. And he only gets one shot; fail and some really nasty things could happen - Haroche could insert any information into the system, he could do any sort of setup, use all sorts of drugs and poisons... the possibilities are chilling. Take the bribe and bide his time? Wouldn't that be fun. A race to mutual destruction. Simon and Cordelia have heard all the banging and pacing, and are worried - he reassures them - "Just...wrestling with temptation." And winning two falls out of three. Maybe. Miles has one advantage. Haroche knows exactly what Naismith would do. But he's never met Lord Vorkosigan. Even Miles doesn't know him. Miles is sick of running in circles, of his mind going crazy chasing all these ideas and possibilities. So... stop. Suddenly he finds his centre, his peace, his identity. "I am who I choose to be. I always have been what I chose... though not always what I pleased.' Cordelia always says (interesting that he goes to his mother's advice) that When you choose an action you choose the consequences. And when you desire a consequence you damned well better take the action that would create it. 'I elect to be...myself.' He's calm - which is so rare for Miles, all through this book he's been anxious, miserable, shattered, lost, frustrated, and more - so many emotions, so intense, so exhausting. Miles - or Naismith - was never good at waiting, at patience. Now he's found serenity. And Haroche has no grip on him. But Miles has to deal with Haroche. Somehow. Would Haroche kill him? Disposing of an Auditor would rip the place open. No, it's Duv who's in danger - kill him and the whole problem goes away, it's all solved and done. 'As soon as Haroche knew Miles knew, it would be a race against time. And all Miles had was a trail of mirrors and smoke. Smoke. Air filters. Miles's eyes widened.' From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Mar 20 14:06:13 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 14:06:13 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 25 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you didn't know before, this chapter shows how brilliant a writer Lois truly is. This is the climax of the novel. This is so intense, you almost feel tired after reading it. And it's a man sitting alone in a small room. But his mind is raging, moving, and changing. The scene with Haroche and Miles in the office is wonderful, too. Haroche pushes every button, works through so many different ways to push Miles towards ending the case - he has it all planned, he knows just what Naismith will do because he's already done it once. All Naismith's triggers are there. What are Lord Vorkosigan's triggers? Haroche would - and does - say that he's totally loyal to Gregor. That Simon was slipping a bit, that he should have retired. Can he justify what he did as a desperate act to protect ImpSec? It'd be fun to see him try that in a court-martial. And there has to be an irony somewhere that ImpSec can use FastPenta to question anyone and find out all the truth and the answers; but they can't use it on themselves. Best two falls out of three. How close did Miles come to taking that offer? From wawenri at msn.com Sun Mar 20 14:38:44 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 14:38:44 +0000 Subject: [LMB] =?windows-1252?q?Mark=92s_title?= Message-ID: Until Miles was revived, was Mark Lord Vorlosigan? What about the time between Miles becoming count and when Aral Alexander was born (decanted)? William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. From domelouann at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 14:55:06 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 09:55:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] =?utf-8?q?Mark=E2=80=99s_title?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 9:38 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Until Miles was revived, was Mark Lord Vorlosigan? Fine question. I gathered from the conversation between Aral and Cordelia that Mark may have been technically Lord Vorkosigan at that time, but some sort of recognition as Count's Heir was required from the CoC. Which they hadn't done yet, and were not sure would be politically possible. In theory people could have called Mark Lord Vorkosigan socially (IMO) before that was done, but as we know that was the last thing he wanted. I think we read elsewhere that Aral (then Lord V) had gotten Miles officially confirmed as his heir back when he was Regent, well before his own father died. > What about the time between Miles becoming count and when Aral Alexander > was born (decanted)? > If you take another look at Cryoburn, Aral Alexander was eight or nine when Aral died. From howard at brazee.net Sun Mar 20 14:56:21 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 08:56:21 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 25 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DD0A7F9-55B2-4B7F-B742-25F653C110B7@brazee.net> I wonder how much Miles realized that ?You can?t go home again?, when Lord Vorkosigan won over Admiral Naismith. I see some athletes trying to hold on past their time. Others recognize that they won?t be what they used to be. So is the fun of playing worth the recognition that they are playing at a lower level? (Maybe yes, and that?s OK). Miles has been arguing with himself for a while now, and Naismith has been losing the arguments. It?s time to stop arguing and go on with his life. From domelouann at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 15:00:26 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 10:00:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 2:53 AM Patrick Vera wrote: > There are SSDs at 16, 32, 60 and 100 TB, but these are all very expensive > and mainly named at data centers. > I took it that we were talking about HDDs. I have a Western Digital external hard drive, 10 Tb, that I bought at Best Buy I think 2 years ago. I don't remember the exact price, but the same item is about $200 currently. Louann From lmb at matija.com Sun Mar 20 15:27:08 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 15:27:08 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: <18af74c6-a4cb-f227-82d0-fcf853f2c3d9@matija.com> Message-ID: <1ccd22a2-4834-99c9-c361-be3d6a4bad8b@matija.com> On 20/03/2022 13:44, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Thanks. However, that raise the point of why Amazon is participating in a scam? I can not speak for Amazon, I can only speculate. Not everything Amazon sells comes from Amazon. Best that I can determine, 50% of items for sale on the Amazon website come from third party sellers, with Amazon only providing listing on the website, and possibly shipping from an Amazon warehouse (sometimes not even the latter). I don't think Amazon can/wants to pay the people needed to monitor every listing in order to detect such scams. You or I can think that they should, in which case one can buy some of their stock and bring it up at the next shareholders meeting. > > William A Wenrich > > * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. > > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold > Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2022 11:08:16 PM > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Cc: Matija Grabnar > Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on > > On 19/03/2022 23:41, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >> Sorry, it was a Facebook ad. I did find https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fdp%2FB09TK7ST4X%3Ftag%3Damz-mkt-chr-us-20%26ascsubtag%3D1ba00-01000-a0049-win10-other-smile-us000-pcomp-feature-scomp-feature-scomp%26ref%3Daa_scomp%26th%3D1&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cee8d221385b742f6ae3f08da0a2fab71%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637833497101946673%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=uwqP9xm%2FKdMIex3IxOD0U0zG8cmvE4HAFx%2B7UdzmClw%3D&reserved=0 at amazon. >> >> William A Wenrich >> Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. > Looking at the "Questions and answers" section, the first question > listed for me is: > > Question:Is this really a 16tb hard drive? > Answer:No, it's a scam. > By S. Bufe on March 15, 2022 > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cee8d221385b742f6ae3f08da0a2fab71%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637833497101946673%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=lqyfMrpAIZ9Den7OnmZXph8Sf6JCLiR6txwFCJOsolI%3D&reserved=0 From domelouann at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 15:41:00 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 10:41:00 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 25 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 8:57 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > So... stop. Suddenly he finds his centre, his peace, his identity. > "I am who I choose to be. I always have been what I chose... > though not always what I pleased.' > This reminds me of an exchange from "Lawrence of Arabia." Ali: A man can do whatever he wants, you said. Lawrence: He can, but he can't want what he wants. Miles has just realize*d* what Lord Vorkosigan wants, and it's not what Naismith wants. From howard at brazee.net Sun Mar 20 15:50:23 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 09:50:23 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 25 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <227C6A62-224F-478E-997F-27FAF78BB827@brazee.net> > On Mar 20, 2022, at 9:41 AM, Louann Miller wrote: > > > This reminds me of an exchange from "Lawrence of Arabia." > Ali: A man can do whatever he wants, you said. > Lawrence: He can, but he can't want what he wants. Many good exchanges in that movie. One of my favorites is when the enlisted man tries his trick with the match. " Lawrence says, ?The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts.? > > Miles has just realize*d* what Lord Vorkosigan wants, and it's not what > Naismith wants. Very true. Also, even if Naismith could take over, it wouldn?t be as satisfying as it used to be. Things have changed, and Miles has grown. From rgmolpus at flash.net Sun Mar 20 19:34:35 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 19:34:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 25 In-Reply-To: <227C6A62-224F-478E-997F-27FAF78BB827@brazee.net> References: <227C6A62-224F-478E-997F-27FAF78BB827@brazee.net> Message-ID: <2079467997.596643.1647804875174@mail.yahoo.com> This is the point where 'Admiral Naismith' ends and Miles Vorkosigan reappears. He breaks (most) of the things that tie him to the Dendarii (excepting a a few personal links ), and he reaffirms his ties to Barrayar. On Sunday, March 20, 2022, 10:50:43 AM CDT, Howard Brazee wrote: > On Mar 20, 2022, at 9:41 AM, Louann Miller wrote: > > > This reminds me of an exchange from "Lawrence of Arabia." > Ali: A man can do whatever he wants, you said. > Lawrence: He can, but he can't want what he wants. Many good exchanges in that movie.? One of my favorites is when the enlisted man tries his trick with the match.? " Lawrence says, ?The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts.? > > Miles has just realize*d* what Lord Vorkosigan wants, and it's not what > Naismith wants. Very true.? Also, even if Naismith could take over, it wouldn?t be as satisfying as it used to be.? Things have changed, and Miles has grown. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From becca7108 at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 19:40:56 2022 From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 15:40:56 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 25 In-Reply-To: <2079467997.596643.1647804875174@mail.yahoo.com> References: <227C6A62-224F-478E-997F-27FAF78BB827@brazee.net> <2079467997.596643.1647804875174@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The thing about the Admiral Naismith/Miles Vorkosigan split is that Admiral Naismith really had nowhere to grow. There might be more daring rescues, exploits, but he started at the top as an Admiral. Miles Vorkosigan has a lot of directions in which to grow, and he does. On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 3:34 PM Richard Molpus wrote: > > This is the point where 'Admiral Naismith' ends and Miles Vorkosigan reappears. He breaks (most) of the things that tie him to the Dendarii (excepting a a few personal links ), and he reaffirms his ties to Barrayar. > > > On Sunday, March 20, 2022, 10:50:43 AM CDT, Howard Brazee wrote: > > > > > On Mar 20, 2022, at 9:41 AM, Louann Miller wrote: > > > > > > This reminds me of an exchange from "Lawrence of Arabia." > > Ali: A man can do whatever he wants, you said. > > Lawrence: He can, but he can't want what he wants. > > Many good exchanges in that movie. One of my favorites is when the enlisted man tries his trick with the match. " Lawrence says, ?The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts.? > > > > > Miles has just realize*d* what Lord Vorkosigan wants, and it's not what > > Naismith wants. > > Very true. Also, even if Naismith could take over, it wouldn?t be as satisfying as it used to be. Things have changed, and Miles has grown. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to becca7108 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 00:41:06 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 19:41:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] It's late at night and I feel silly... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh God! you've put Mile singing that song in, "Cats the Movie". On Sun, Mar 20, 2022, 5:51 AM Pat Mathews wrote: > Me-OW! > ________________________________ > From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of > Eric Oppen > Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2022 11:26 PM > To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> > Subject: [LMB] It's late at night and I feel silly... > > Am I the only one who, when the book currently under discussion comes up as > a topic, pictures Miles singing: > > "Memory > All alone in the moonlight > I can smile at the old days > I was beautiful then > I remember > The time I knew what happiness was > Let the memory > Live again!" > > Hmmmm...Miles Vorkosigan, the Musical? Maybe we fillers should put our > heads together! > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rgmolpus at flash.net Mon Mar 21 03:09:09 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 03:09:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] The Eternal Casting thread In-Reply-To: <1172979101.338775.1642209574424@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1172979101.338775.1642209574424@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1608833812.667578.1647832149978@mail.yahoo.com> To throw this into the pot: I've just seen the new Batman movie, and one scene (not a spoiler) has the Lead Bruce Wayne,?Robert Pattinson, and Alfred, Andy Serkis, together in a hospital room. Kill the sound, and it could be Gregor talking to Miles in the hospital bed. Pattinson has the thin, angular face Gregor has, along with the intensity. Serkis has the short, muscular, and twisted body Miles has. Something to consider... On Friday, January 14, 2022, 07:19:34 PM CST, Richard Molpus wrote: Another two suggestions: Rhys Ifan for Bothari Constantine.?? I saw him as Griguri Rasputin in the Kingsman movie, and he fit perfectly - given the heavy makeup.? He's got the body type, and the wild eyes needed for Bothari.? Ralph Fines for Piotr Vorkosigan. He's got the acting chops for it - and the ferocity of motion Piotr needs. Thin face (with some help from makeup), and the thin body needed. ? Daniel Radcliffe could do a young-ish Aral Vorkosigan... ? On Tuesday, November 30, 2021, 01:04:56 AM CST, Gwynne Powell wrote: From: "Richard G. Molpus" Another entry in the Eternal casting thread. I'd like to propose David Troughton for either Emperor Ezar or General Count Piotr Vorkosigan. Watching him rip an incompetent Colonel a new opening in ' Major Lennox Answered With His Life Sir!' Gwynne: I can see him as Ezar, definitely. Sometimes I see an actor and immediately identify them as exactly the right person for one of the characters. And sometimes I see an actor and like them so much I try to fit them to someone. And I'd like to add to the casting thread.... theme music. Some songs are just so perfect for particular characters; Viva la vida came on the radio while I was driving today (yes, I know it's Coldplay, but it's still a great song) and that song is so perfect for Yuri. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Mar 21 03:34:42 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 03:34:42 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 25 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Howard Brazee I wonder how much Miles realized that ?You can?t go home again?, when Lord Vorkosigan won over Admiral Naismith. I see some athletes trying to hold on past their time. Others recognize that they won?t be what they used to be. So is the fun of playing worth the recognition that they are playing at a lower level? (Maybe yes, and that?s OK). Miles has been arguing with himself for a while now, and Naismith has been losing the arguments. It?s time to stop arguing and go on with his life. Gwynne: Simon has already told him that if you've been at the top of your game, you can't go back at a lesser level. And I find it interesting that Miles tends to think of Naismith as a separate person. As he understands more about Lord Vorkosigan he starts to BE Lord Vorkosigan; in some ways he was always playing at being Naismith (He told Ellie 'I was never a mercenary') From sturmvogel66 at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 13:34:38 2022 From: sturmvogel66 at gmail.com (Jason Long) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 09:34:38 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 25 In-Reply-To: References: <227C6A62-224F-478E-997F-27FAF78BB827@brazee.net> <2079467997.596643.1647804875174@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The thing that's always puzzled me about Haroche's career in ImpSec is that he was so successful. He blindly ignores women and their true amount of power in Barrayaran society, but he's the the chief of Domestic Affairs? How is that not a red flag for that job? Alys seems to have reported directly to Simon; how did the latter pass the info to Haroche without him figuring things out? Maybe Simon was losing his grip if he didn't pick up on Haroche's inability to read women and value them properly? We've seen plenty of good fanfic about scheming and treasonous women in the Empire, surely Haroche would have had to deal with some even before he became chief of Domestic Affairs. Or did he just believe that they were just tools of their menfolk, regardless of the evidence? Calling all fanfic writers! I'd be very interested to read something that explains Haroche's successes and his personality, preferably from his POV. A challenging task, I think, but it could be very worthwhile. On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 3:41 PM Becca Price wrote: > The thing about the Admiral Naismith/Miles Vorkosigan split is that > Admiral Naismith really had nowhere to grow. There might be more > daring rescues, exploits, but he started at the top as an Admiral. > Miles Vorkosigan has a lot of directions in which to grow, and he > does. > > On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 3:34 PM Richard Molpus wrote: > > > > This is the point where 'Admiral Naismith' ends and Miles Vorkosigan > reappears. He breaks (most) of the things that tie him to the Dendarii > (excepting a a few personal links ), and he reaffirms his ties to Barrayar. > > > > > > On Sunday, March 20, 2022, 10:50:43 AM CDT, Howard Brazee < > howard at brazee.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Mar 20, 2022, at 9:41 AM, Louann Miller > wrote: > > > > > > > > > This reminds me of an exchange from "Lawrence of Arabia." > > > Ali: A man can do whatever he wants, you said. > > > Lawrence: He can, but he can't want what he wants. > > > > Many good exchanges in that movie. One of my favorites is when the > enlisted man tries his trick with the match. " Lawrence says, ?The trick, > William Potter, is not minding that it hurts.? > > > > > > > > Miles has just realize*d* what Lord Vorkosigan wants, and it's not what > > > Naismith wants. > > > > Very true. Also, even if Naismith could take over, it wouldn?t be as > satisfying as it used to be. Things have changed, and Miles has grown. > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to becca7108 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to sturmvogel66 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Mon Mar 21 13:37:35 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 07:37:35 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 25 In-Reply-To: References: <227C6A62-224F-478E-997F-27FAF78BB827@brazee.net> <2079467997.596643.1647804875174@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 21, 2022, at 7:34 AM, Jason Long wrote: > > The thing that's always puzzled me about Haroche's career in ImpSec is that > he was so successful. A lot like real life examples. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Mar 21 16:13:27 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 16:13:27 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 26 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Miles swoops. Of course, he's planned the whole thing just like a combat mission, although with very different troops. He's called on Ivan again, not that he seems to be really necessary this time, but he's handy to have around. And Simon in his dress uniform - Miles has learned from Alys that clothes are a weapon, and a message. They head to the cells. Miles doesn't visit Duv, but he sends Delia in. The guards probably think she's a sweet little girlfriend being allowed to say goodbye. Actually, if anyone did turn up to assist Duv's suicide, Duv and Delia between them could probably take down half of the personnel in ImpSec. (And here is the only thing that strikes a wrong note - Miles gives clear instructions, Voice of the Emperor instructions, that no-one else, no superior, NOBODY, is to enter the cellblock until Miles comes back. But when he does come back, Duv has been released, and Haroche is there. All I can think of is that he says 'the prisoner's block', and they put Haroche in a different section? And it was the guards, and guards only, who released Duv? But still, it doesn't seem as if they followed his orders properly....?) Ok, cells done. Then they scoop up the head of Maintenance, and a Forensics tech, then he takes the whole bunch down to the weapons room and they get one of the capsules, explain the delivery system, and try it out. The magic potion from Canaba shows the presence of Komarran bugs in the air filter - and Canaba is excused for all his obnoxious behaviour. This is the best entertainment the Maintenance Colonel and the Forensics Tech have had in a long time. Duv's office - no bugs. Thank goodness. They collect Allegre - Head of Komarran Affairs, and next in line after Haroche. Then the whole troop head on to Illyan's office - oh look, Haroche is there. A bit surprised. Miles explains that they're checking the air filters for the bugs. Nope, none in Simon's office - good. And yes, Haroche, they've done Duv's office already. Also no. In a performance worthy of an Academy Award, Miles is SO disappointed that there's no bugs in the filter. Oh well, he'll have to start at the top and work all the way down the building. Ivan, in a bid for the Oscar for Best Supporting Actor, suggests that they save some time by doing the offices and conference rooms that Simon visited most often. Oh, what a good idea. Yes, let's do that after we do the outer office here. While they're setting up to do the outer office, Haroche is suddenly busy and scuttles away. Miles counts to a hundred then herds the team along to - oh look, here comes Haroche's replacement from Domestic Affairs - Haroche sent him on an errand to the basement. Well, let's all go to Haroche's old office. And there he is. It's a perfect moment; Haroche with a filter he'd scooped out of a random conference room, busily replacing the one in his office. Talk your way out of this one, ha. Miles has the perfect line, of course: "Timing is everything." The filter in Haroche's old office lights up like a neon sign. They all get the message. The sight of Simon kills any excuse Haroche would have tried. Haroche avoided all his victims; he never visited Simon in sick bay, he kept Miles away when he'd set up the frame-up, he arrived after Duv was arrested. Coward. Miles should be having a good gloat, this is his triumphant moment, but ... it's just sad and nasty and bitter. So much suffering for nothing. For one man's greed. Now comes the weird/funny moment; the group are all officers, mostly senior ones, with no useful sargeants. Miles lays the charge of treason; they all flinch. He then suggests that in exchange for cooperation it might be a lesser charge of assault on a superior officer... etc... parroting the words Haroche had used about Duv. That one hit home, too. Ha. Allegre organises Ivan (of course), the maintenance Colonel and Haroche's old second-in-command. They'll all have an uncomfortable trip downstairs. Maybe there's another good reason for having no windows in the building. They find the briefing room minus air filter, add it to their pile of evidence, then stroll down to the cells. Miles and Simon chat about how Haroche is going to play it; Simon says that Miles hit harder than he realised, there's really no way Haroche can spin this. Miles asks if he should hint that the guards help Haroche find a terminal solution. Simon, showing the first real bitterness about the whole thing, wants Haroche to suffer the whole process: trial, shame, sentence, ruined life. I love Simon's comment: "ImpSec really needs to start some new traditions for changing its chiefs. Assassination and retribution is so disruptive to the organisation." Yes, all that suffering disrupts the organisation. So, they get to the cells and Duv is being released, Delia firmly attached. (Again, not really following Miles's orders?) Duv is at the incandescent-rage stage. He wants to quit, he has some fine names for the whole shebang, he's livid that Miles left him there all night. Allegre winces at the idea of him quitting; they've lost two senior officers in a few days, they really can't afford to lose more. Miles apologises; it took a few hours to get the evidence together to clear him. Simon points out that it'll take longer to write the reports than it did to solve the case. (Miles works FAST. Haroche didn't take that into consideration.) Simon spent a month in the old cells, due to Miles starting the Dendarii Mercenaries (Yes, every officer who commanded Miles ended up in a cell sooner or later.) Oh, nobody told Duv who it was? Haroche. Duv wants to know how long he'll have to deal with anti-Komarran bigotry. (Actually, this wasn't really prejudice. He was just the next best choice after Miles, as a fall guy. Haroche didn't hate Duv and decide to frame him, he had a frame and just looked for someone to fit it.) Duv decides to sleep on it; quitting may not be such a good idea. Miles hints that the head of Komarran Affairs is about to step up, so they'll need a new one... Allegre and Simon both glare quellingly - he's not supposed to mess with ImpSec's private affairs. Miles and Simon will call Gregor right now to tell him what's happened. It's cute that Duv asks Miles to let Laisa know that he's not a traitor - it's not out of romantic interest, just fellow-Komarran feeling, I think. Duv's still clinging to Delia, he's not letting this one get away: "Once he relaxed a bit, he would perhaps realize that it would take at least four large men with hand-tractors to pry her off his arm. Foolhardy large men..." (I love that line.) Miles and Simon call Gregor, who's in the middle of dinner - lucky sod. "Progress?..." "I'm finished." Yep, works fast. Miles outlines the situation. He still has to question Haroche, which is going to be awkward. He wants to do that right away, before Haroche has time to think. Maybe Simon could help...? Gregor has a better idea. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Mar 21 16:27:07 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 16:27:07 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 26 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This should be the climax but after the previous, exhausting chapter this is almost just tying off loose ends. Miles doesn't even have a good gloat, it's all just sad and distasteful. But he does run a brilliant plan to trap Haroche. Canaba comes through when he's needed - and he's getting an interesting view of Barrayar. It's cute that Duv simmers down every time Delia holds his hand. Delia was ready to take anyone on to protect Duv: Maybe they should have let her help with the questioning. Give Delia three minutes alone with him, and Haroche would probably tell them anything. And once again, Miles worked FAST. I don't think any of the other Auditors could have done what he did. Biggest difference between Haroche and Simon: Simon watches the world, especially the High Vor world, as if it's an interesting pageant. And he sees each person as an individual, and judges them according to their own actions and talents. Haroche doesn't like women, he doesn't like High Vor, he doesn't like spoilt lordlings like Miles, he doesn't like... far too many groups and people. And he doesn't see them as individuals, he doesn't see their talents and uses. Would Haroche have done a good job running ImpSec? I don't think he'd have coped well with the High Vor, with Laisa, with Alys (dear lord no), with agents like Byerly, and - well, with too much more. He's smart, but not very open. And he's a bit rigid. Spare a thought for Allegre. A huge job just fell on him, after the two previous incumbents each left under difficult circumstances. (And, earlier, the two before that were each killed by hostile action. This isn't an easy job.) From domelouann at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 16:29:52 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 11:29:52 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 26 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 11:13 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > It's cute that Duv asks Miles to let > Laisa know that he's not a traitor - it's not out of > romantic interest, just fellow-Komarran feeling, I think. > Duv's still clinging to Delia, he's not letting this one > get away: "Once he relaxed a bit, he would perhaps realize that it would > take at least four large men with hand-tractors to pry her off his arm. > Foolhardy large men..." > (I love that line.) > It is a fantastic line. As far as Duv's message to Laisa, I think it was some fellow-Komarran feeling but mostly genuine regard. His relationship with her did start with sincere admiration leading to friendship, and those elements are clearly both still there. Duv is not the kind of man who pretends to be a woman's friend when in fact he only wants sex; he's better than that. As we already know, he's going to be incredibly happy with Delia. But if things had gone differently, and Laisa never met Gregor, she might have said yes to Duv when he got around to it and I think they would have been pretty happy as well. From fred.fredex at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 16:37:10 2022 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 12:37:10 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: that amazon listing for a HD is probably a scam, based on reading the reviews. On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 2:38 PM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On 19/03/2022 15:03, dbernat wrote: > > WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > > >> I remember the phrase "a buck a bit" from MANY years ago. > >> Today I saw an advertisement for a 16Tb SSD for $119.80. BOGO! > > > > Have SSDs reached 16Tb capacity? > > Not anywhere I've ever shopped. That looked like a great price, and I > wanted to snatch one for myself. > > The largest I've found right now was 8TB, for 700+ euro. Even the > rotating rust disks (which have reached 20TB as far as I've seen, so the > 16TB are off the top-off-the-line premium price), are at least three > times the price William quoted. > > William, where did you see that deal? And can I borrow your time machine? > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From wetair at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 17:05:46 2022 From: wetair at gmail.com (Ruchira Mathur) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 13:05:46 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Amazon should take it down once it's been reported though and possibly ban the third-party seller? Something like that. On Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 12:37 PM Fred wrote: > that amazon listing for a HD is probably a scam, based on reading the > reviews. > > > On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 2:38 PM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > On 19/03/2022 15:03, dbernat wrote: > > > WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > > > > >> I remember the phrase "a buck a bit" from MANY years ago. > > >> Today I saw an advertisement for a 16Tb SSD for $119.80. BOGO! > > > > > > Have SSDs reached 16Tb capacity? > > > > Not anywhere I've ever shopped. That looked like a great price, and I > > wanted to snatch one for myself. > > > > The largest I've found right now was 8TB, for 700+ euro. Even the > > rotating rust disks (which have reached 20TB as far as I've seen, so the > > 16TB are off the top-off-the-line premium price), are at least three > > times the price William quoted. > > > > William, where did you see that deal? And can I borrow your time machine? > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wetair at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Mar 21 17:17:13 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:17:13 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 14:42:02 +0000, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >I remember the phrase "a buck a bit" from MANY years ago. >Today I saw an advertisement for a 16Tb SSD for $119.80. BOGO! There are many such ads. At least 98% of them are scams. -- "Work only when someone is watching. Make love as though you don't need the money. Dance and hope no one gets hurt" - Anonymous From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Mar 21 17:21:42 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:21:42 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 18:37:55 +0000, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: >On 19/03/2022 15:03, dbernat wrote: >> WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >> >>> I remember the phrase "a buck a bit" from MANY years ago. >>> Today I saw an advertisement for a 16Tb SSD for $119.80. BOGO! >> >> Have SSDs reached 16Tb capacity? > >Not anywhere I've ever shopped. That looked like a great price, and I >wanted to snatch one for myself. > >The largest I've found right now was 8TB, for 700+ euro. Even the >rotating rust disks (which have reached 20TB as far as I've seen, so the >16TB are off the top-off-the-line premium price), are at least three >times the price William quoted. > >William, where did you see that deal? And can I borrow your time machine? It's a popular Facebook scam, inter alia. Remember the "if it seems too good" principle? Western Digital have 18TB models on the market, for prices north of $600. There are 20TB ones from Seagate and WD, but they're all destined for data centres and carry data centre pricing. -- "Work only when someone is watching. Make love as though you don't need the money. Dance and hope no one gets hurt" - Anonymous From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Mar 21 17:25:37 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:25:37 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: <18af74c6-a4cb-f227-82d0-fcf853f2c3d9@matija.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:44:14 +0000, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >Thanks. However, that raise the point of why Amazon is participating in a scam? Because they list 20,000 items a day, and humans are not automatically involved in checking them? It's a "drive-by" posting. They list something, idiots buy it, and Amazon stands the cost, in the final analysis. They tend to pull such listings as soon as reported (the popular "no longer available" status - they never admit to being scammed). Amazon has clearly decided it's cheaper to pay off the odd victim than make the system foolproof (eBay has the same approach). -- "Work only when someone is watching. Make love as though you don't need the money. Dance and hope no one gets hurt" - Anonymous From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Mar 21 17:28:50 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:28:50 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 25 In-Reply-To: References: <227C6A62-224F-478E-997F-27FAF78BB827@brazee.net> <2079467997.596643.1647804875174@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 07:37:35 -0600, Howard Brazee wrote: > > >> On Mar 21, 2022, at 7:34 AM, Jason Long wrote: >> >> The thing that's always puzzled me about Haroche's career in ImpSec is that >> he was so successful. > >A lot like real life examples. "The road to success is more often travelled by smooth crawling than by efficient running." -- At first there was nothing. Then God said 'Let there be light!' Then there was still nothing. But you could see it. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Mar 21 17:33:38 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:33:38 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4mdh3hluh7megvpsqcc8mpk92hr477c6vj@4ax.com> On Wed, 16 Mar 2022 19:52:07 +0000, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >Balloons don?t have engines and from why I gather the equipment won?t run on batteries. With the right tech, *anything* can run on batteries. -- At first there was nothing. Then God said 'Let there be light!' Then there was still nothing. But you could see it. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Mar 21 17:34:55 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:34:55 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: regulations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Mar 2022 20:31:13 -0400, Fred wrote: >depending on how much power you need, you may need a significant battery >pack. Imagine a 12V (or two) car battery on board. can you say "ballast" ? >Those puppies are heavy! LiFeP batteries are 1/5 the weight and can replace lead/acid batteries in almost all applications. -- At first there was nothing. Then God said 'Let there be light!' Then there was still nothing. But you could see it. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Mar 21 17:39:28 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:39:28 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Happy (U.S. , civilian) Pi Day! In-Reply-To: <1E411D2C-9D10-4927-8CD3-D5CDDE6CDFFB@brazee.net> References: <1E411D2C-9D10-4927-8CD3-D5CDDE6CDFFB@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 20:14:32 -0600, Howard Brazee wrote: > > >> On Mar 14, 2022, at 5:06 PM, Pouncer via Lois-Bujold wrote: >> >> The rest of the world and the US military considers the date >> to be 14 / 03 / 2022. But for civilians in the U.S. (being >> exceptional, so to speak) it's 3-14 or Pi-Day, 2022! > >I prefer computers yyyy/mm/dd. It sorts correctly. Pi day is, as eny fule kno, 22/7. It's actually more accurate that 3.14, too. -- At first there was nothing. Then God said 'Let there be light!' Then there was still nothing. But you could see it. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Mar 21 17:42:31 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:42:31 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: <66be615f-de25-8bc2-a4e6-bb7937d62893@matija.com> <3tdk2h154i0kr0f7huer312fbcouqnq1ki@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 12:54:42 -0700, Howard Brazee wrote: > > >> On Mar 10, 2022, at 10:39 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: >> >> *By convention*, and based on the Principle of Least Surprise, Midnight >> is 12am and midday is 12pm. It's arbitrary, in a sense, but that's how >> it is. > >Why is that ?Least Surprise?? A second later, *with the same hour*, it's unambiguously am, a second before, it's 11.59.59 PM. So it doesn't go from 12pm to 12.01.01am, which would be ... surprising. If we all use military time and the 24H clock, it's a non-issue, of course. -- News: rich people paying rich people to tell middleclass people to blame poor people. - graffito From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Mar 21 17:43:50 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:43:50 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: <0FBCBBB6-D745-4BB8-964D-0680A4E2EBD5@panix.com> References: <0FBCBBB6-D745-4BB8-964D-0680A4E2EBD5@panix.com> Message-ID: <3aeh3h1j2bmad46d6ln0l7tbcdsk8p725k@4ax.com> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 06:58:04 -0500, WalterStuartBushell wrote: > > >> On Mar 10, 2022, at 6:00 PM, A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold wrote: >> >> The phone companies don?t give you edible cookies, either. Gave blood on the third of this month. Brought one of my Sumo citrus. > > >But, they probably give you software cookies. > Not for *your* benefit. -- News: rich people paying rich people to tell middleclass people to blame poor people. - graffito From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Mon Mar 21 17:52:46 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:52:46 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: <9A6527FE-E3A4-4B99-9614-15E75A610159@brazee.net> Message-ID: <0qeh3h9dkocd77761ei00pcfllge3qrvdv@4ax.com> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 20:47:37 +0000, "Harvey Fishman" wrote: > > >------ Original Message ------ >From: "Marc Wilson" >To: "LMB" >Bcc: fishman at panix.com >Sent: 3/7/2022 4:17:12 AM >Subject: Re: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 > >>3. If you use the Kindle ecosystem, you can't lose books, because >>they're stored in your account and can be re-downloaded, up to six >>current devices. Other systems are available. > >Similarly Baen. Kindle and Baen are the only two services that I use to >download directly to my Kindle. All others I download to my local disks >first, and my local disks are continuously backed up to the cloud by >Backblaze. I strongly recommend Backblaze if your ISP offers reasonable >upload speeds. For $60 a year, I get unlimited uploads and quite >reasonable recovery; it saved my arse several times over the years. I have enough speed to use it, but it's $70 per device per year. Checking out other options. -- News: rich people paying rich people to tell middleclass people to blame poor people. - graffito From howard at brazee.net Mon Mar 21 18:49:36 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 12:49:36 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <826CE0E0-7A8F-4642-BD5F-3CF8C79CA719@brazee.net> > On Mar 21, 2022, at 11:21 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > It's a popular Facebook scam, inter alia. Remember the "if it seems too > good" principle? When Apple stopped selling their original HomePods, I started looking to see if I could buy a 2nd one (for stereo). I saw a couple of sites with expensive prices and a lot with real cheap prices. I didn?t trust the cheap ones, and didn?t buy one. From fishman at panix.com Mon Mar 21 18:53:56 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 18:53:56 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: <0qeh3h9dkocd77761ei00pcfllge3qrvdv@4ax.com> References: <9A6527FE-E3A4-4B99-9614-15E75A610159@brazee.net> <0qeh3h9dkocd77761ei00pcfllge3qrvdv@4ax.com> Message-ID: The big advantage of Backblaze is that there is no limit on how much you can back up. Right now I have 9.5 TB there but I have been up to 16 TB. The price seems to have gone up. It was $60.00 when I signed up and I believe it was for two years. I still have several months to go. Still, I do not believe that there is any other choice for unlimited backup. Let me know if you find one. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "Marc Wilson" To: "LMB" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 3/21/2022 1:52:46 PM Subject: Re: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 >On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 20:47:37 +0000, "Harvey Fishman" >wrote: > >> >> >>------ Original Message ------ >>From: "Marc Wilson" >>To: "LMB" >>Bcc: fishman at panix.com >>Sent: 3/7/2022 4:17:12 AM >>Subject: Re: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 >> >>>3. If you use the Kindle ecosystem, you can't lose books, because >>>they're stored in your account and can be re-downloaded, up to six >>>current devices. Other systems are available. >> >>Similarly Baen. Kindle and Baen are the only two services that I use to >>download directly to my Kindle. All others I download to my local disks >>first, and my local disks are continuously backed up to the cloud by >>Backblaze. I strongly recommend Backblaze if your ISP offers reasonable >>upload speeds. For $60 a year, I get unlimited uploads and quite >>reasonable recovery; it saved my arse several times over the years. > >I have enough speed to use it, but it's $70 per device per year. >Checking out other options. >-- >News: rich people paying rich people to tell middleclass people to blame poor people. > - graffito > > From howard at brazee.net Mon Mar 21 18:57:20 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 12:57:20 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: <66be615f-de25-8bc2-a4e6-bb7937d62893@matija.com> <3tdk2h154i0kr0f7huer312fbcouqnq1ki@4ax.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 21, 2022, at 11:42 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > >>> *By convention*, and based on the Principle of Least Surprise, Midnight >>> is 12am and midday is 12pm. It's arbitrary, in a sense, but that's how >>> it is. >> >> Why is that ?Least Surprise?? > > A second later, *with the same hour*, it's unambiguously am, a second > before, it's 11.59.59 PM. So it doesn't go from 12pm to 12.01.01am, > which would be ... surprising. > > If we all use military time and the 24H clock, it's a non-issue, of > course. It cuts the problem in half. We still have to determine which date midnight is. Your ?least surprise? would indicate that the closest future midnight has tomorrow?s date. But if you asked for a ride to pick you up at midnight tomorrow, there could very likely be a surprise. From mark at allums.email Mon Mar 21 19:05:43 2022 From: mark at allums.email (Mark Allums) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 14:05:43 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77ea5909-7703-ce69-eff3-da52615c4ae6@allums.email> On 3/21/2022 12:21 PM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > Western Digital have 18TB models on the market, for prices north of > $600. There are 20TB ones from Seagate and WD, but they're all destined > for data centres and carry data centre pricing. They've upped it a notch and now the 20 TB models are available to consumers for $500 the data centers have 22 TB models. Just FYI. Mark A. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 22:25:30 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:25:30 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 25 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Through reading the book I can't help feeling that Admiral Naismith was Miles' opium. He never questioned the ethics of falsifying his report until he was caught and fired. That's when he realized he went over the edge and and spent a dark time with his grandfather's dagger. He successfully fought off the deep sense of loss through strength of character and a ice cold bath, thanks to Ivan and Dev. He thought he'd gotten over his loss of both power and youth until Lucas Haroche attempts to bribe him with his alter ego. The temptation is so intense that he has to lock himself away and either accept the comfortable and highly satisfying life of being a heroic Admiral at the cost of his ethics, or give up that lifestyle and just become humdrum Lieutenant Vorkosigan, but keeps his ethics. That's when Miles' brilliance shines and he makes peace with who he really is, and where his responsibility really lies. And oh yes, he also solves the case. On Sun, Mar 20, 2022, 10:34 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Howard Brazee > > I wonder how much Miles realized that ?You can?t go home again?, when Lord > Vorkosigan won over Admiral Naismith. > I see some athletes trying to hold on past their time. Others recognize > that they won?t be what they used to be. So is the fun of playing worth > the recognition that they are playing at a lower level? (Maybe yes, and > that?s OK). > Miles has been arguing with himself for a while now, and Naismith has been > losing the arguments. It?s time to stop arguing and go on with his life. > > Gwynne: Simon has already told him that if you've been at the top of your > game, you can't go back at a lesser level. > And I find it interesting that Miles tends to think of Naismith as a > separate > person. As he understands more about Lord Vorkosigan he starts to BE > Lord Vorkosigan; in some ways he was always playing at being Naismith (He > told Ellie 'I was never a mercenary') > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Mar 21 22:45:22 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 22:45:22 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 25 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> On Mar 21, 2022, at 7:34 AM, Jason Long wrote: >> The thing that's always puzzled me about Haroche's career in ImpSec is that >> he was so successful. Gwynne: It's possible that he's not actually quite so misogynistic, it was just a reaction to the situation. His comments about Alys came when he was trying to stop anyone accessing or helping Simon until the chip was gone. And his dismissal about Laisa came when he was trying to keep the frame in place around Duv. His dismissal of High Vor was related to Miles, and it turned out that he had his reasons to hate Miles. Maybe on a better day, when he wasn't busy killing off ImpSec personnel, he'd be more open and objective. From litalex at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 03:48:47 2022 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 23:48:47 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: <826CE0E0-7A8F-4642-BD5F-3CF8C79CA719@brazee.net> References: <826CE0E0-7A8F-4642-BD5F-3CF8C79CA719@brazee.net> Message-ID: <79E276B6-6A46-47EA-A3BD-DC1EB4A50A5D@gmail.com> Hello, > On Mar 21, 2022, at 14:49, Howard Brazee wrote: > > When Apple stopped selling their original HomePods, I started looking to see if I could buy a 2nd one (for stereo). I saw a couple of sites with expensive prices and a lot with real cheap prices. I didn?t trust the cheap ones, and didn?t buy one. Hmm, what?s wrong with the new ones? I have one and it seems to work fine?? little Alex From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Tue Mar 22 03:57:14 2022 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 03:57:14 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 25 Message-ID: So, Miles wrestles.? Here you go: ? https://echoschildren.bandcamp.com/track/two-falls-out-of-three ? Jerrie From howard at brazee.net Tue Mar 22 04:01:26 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 22:01:26 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: <79E276B6-6A46-47EA-A3BD-DC1EB4A50A5D@gmail.com> References: <826CE0E0-7A8F-4642-BD5F-3CF8C79CA719@brazee.net> <79E276B6-6A46-47EA-A3BD-DC1EB4A50A5D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9B86060C-EC9C-4DAB-B3C5-C15C6B36C4D1@brazee.net> > On Mar 21, 2022, at 9:48 PM, Alex Kwan wrote: > > Hello, > >> On Mar 21, 2022, at 14:49, Howard Brazee wrote: >> >> When Apple stopped selling their original HomePods, I started looking to see if I could buy a 2nd one (for stereo). I saw a couple of sites with expensive prices and a lot with real cheap prices. I didn?t trust the cheap ones, and didn?t buy one. > > Hmm, what?s wrong with the new ones? I have one and it seems to work fine?? I meant I didn?t trust the extremely cheap prices for the old ones. I think they were bad sites. The mini-home pods aren?t compatible with the old ones, I can?t get stereo using a new one and an old one. And the old ones sound much better to me. From sturmvogel66 at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 11:29:56 2022 From: sturmvogel66 at gmail.com (Jason Long) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:29:56 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 25 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A good point. That would explain why Simon promoted him, which was really my question. On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 6:45 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > > >> On Mar 21, 2022, at 7:34 AM, Jason Long wrote: > >> The thing that's always puzzled me about Haroche's career in ImpSec is > that > >> he was so successful. > > Gwynne: It's possible that he's not actually quite so misogynistic, > it was just a reaction to the situation. His comments about Alys came > when he was trying to stop anyone accessing or helping Simon until > the chip was gone. And his dismissal about Laisa came when he was > trying to keep the frame in place around Duv. His dismissal of High Vor > was related to Miles, and it turned out that he had his reasons to > hate Miles. > > Maybe on a better day, when he wasn't busy killing off ImpSec > personnel, he'd be more open and objective. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to sturmvogel66 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Mar 22 13:04:30 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:04:30 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 27 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Poor Ivan, he's been witness to some horrible and very scary events. No wonder he loves his job in Ops so much. Ivan's going to be a witness, and possibly a bodyguard, if necessary (Although I think Simon, even in his current state, could do a lot of damage if he had to. He'd probably enjoy it, too.) Gregor's better idea is, of course, Gregor. The team is Gregor, Miles, Simon and Ivan - because Gregor thought that ordinary guards might inhibit Haroche's honesty. (Frankly I think that Simon, at least, might put him off a bit. Miles... line call. Might shut him up, or set him off - that's pretty common with Miles.) The cell is... a cell. Miles has seen worse, and better. (He's a bit of a connoiseur, when it comes to incarceration.) Haroche has no tunic or boots, just pants and shirt. (Lacerating to his sensibilities, no doubt. Not that I care.) Seeing the first three brings hostility from Haroche. The fourth one freezes him. He doesn't attempt a salute. No armsmen. Miles figures it'd take Haroche a moment to kill him, giving Gregor time to get away. And they're all sealed into that cell. It's claustrophobic, intense, and in a way a moment out of time. Gregor asks for his last report. Ohhh this will be a killing memory for Haroche, for the rest of his life (Still not feeling the sympathy.) Gregor is quietly angry. Miles hadn't seen him like this - after all, Gregor went to school at 12, then Miles and Gregor were both involved in school, Academy, career, adult life - on different timetables. Miles has interacted with Gregor as an adult, but not to see him angry - Gregor doesn't get this angry very often. He can't afford to. (No wonder Ivan and Miles would both hate Gregor's job. Who'd want to live like that.) Haroche knew about the bugs when they were first captured: "...Then I won my promotion to head of Domestic Affairs, the Yarrow case, do you remember that . . . sir?" This to Illyan. "You said my work on it was superb." "No, Lucas," Illyan's voice was falsely pleasant. "Can't say as I do." Bit of a nasty moment after that one. Ha. He saw Miles, Simon's pet, and heard that Miles was being groomed to succeed Simon. He knew that Miles was some sort of supreme covert agent. Then Miles was killed, "...though as it turned out... not quite dead enough." Yes, that went down well. Simon named Haroche as next in line. Then Miles was back, and Haroche was asked to train him (I love 'hyperactive, and insubordinate as hell... Said I'd either love him or hate him, though some people do both...' Simon was pretty honest.) Haroche didn't want to train his next boss - and ok, yes, I do understand that. A bit. Then Miles self-destructed, spectacularly. And Haroche was head of the line again. Ok to that point I have some sympathy. But... BUT... The day that Miles 'resigned', THAT DAY, that afternoon, he went and got the capsules. No. Just no. There's no excuse for that. He wanted to move up while he was at his peak, and Simon was getting tired, talking of resigning but didn't... sure, some miserable justifications. He used the first one a few days later. Oh, so he wrestled with temptation a while? Sure - there was no way he wasn't going to do it. Dosed him again after a week, because nothing seemed to be happening. And the next miserable justification: it wasn't going to kill Simon, just toss him out of the job. Actually, it probably would have killed him if Miles hadn't stepped in. Haroche would have justified that somehow, too. He wasn't going to frame anyone - gee thanks - but if it had to be someone he wanted Miles. Because he deserved it - he should have been charged after the lies. (He'd done ten years of brilliant work. Saved the Empire a few times, saved plenty of people, done amazing good work. Ten damn years. And then he made one bad move, one mistake. Didn't ten years count for anything? Haroche thought that his Yarrow success was justification for everything he did.) But he made a nice frame for Miles, just in case, then Miles popped up as an Auditor, so that wasn't going to work. (I do love 'hyper little dwarf'). Miles drove him crazy, wouldn't take the bait to go to JW, was always THERE, under his feet, in his way. One more week and it would have been fine, but no - Miles was too quick so he had to frame someone. See? Not his fault, he was FORCED to do it. And Duv was there, and fitted so well, and might embarrass the Empress... 'Who would miss him?'....That line basically sums up Haroche's attitude. Gregor is grey with rage. And 'The little git still wouldn't give up...' He found the capsules in three days; it was meant to take three MONTHS. 'I had to get rid of him before I strangled him' so he pushed the Galeni frame. (I get the feeling that Haroche's nightmares from now on will feature Miles.) So he gave him the bait he wanted, and it so nearly worked and then... he's back AGAIN, with his tame scientist, and it was all over. What bait? Miles explains. All three of the others are amazed that he didn't tell them, or take it (Yes... Miles has to do some work introducing them ALL to Lord Vorkosigan.) So why didn't he take it...? It would sacrifice Duv. It would let Haroche run rampant, controlling information to Gregor. Soon there'd be manipulation. Miles doesn't want to fight about it with Haroche. Let him have all his justifications, whatever - he's lost, it's done. Miles isn't a gloater. "It wasn't murder... Simon wasn't even hurt!" Not a good choice as a final line. Miles doesn't want to charge him for the bribery attempt, it would just be painful in court and there's no need for it. And of course, the best line: why didn't he take the bribe? 'The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart.' - Miles has learned his lesson. Part two of this chapter tomorrow, that's enough or tonight. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Mar 22 13:15:25 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:15:25 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 27 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A brilliant chapter. Questioning Haroche is a bit like the non-Fast-Penta questioning in Diplomatic Immunity. And Gregor was right - none of the others would have been as successful with Haroche. So, how justified was he? He saw Simon's little pet, heard the rumours that he was something special... then he's dead and Haroche is one step from the top job. Then Miles is alive again, and Haroche is asked to train Miles to be his boss - maybe a bit of a clumsy choice? And then Miles is out, and THAT DAY Haroche goes for the capsules. Which means he'd thought about it before - this idea didn't hit him the moment Miles was fired. And he keeps saying that he didn't kill anyone... but he'd tried to delay things till the chip was gone, which would probably have killed Simon, especially with the level of care he was getting. And Duv... he had close to zero chance of survival. What will happen to him? Execution or jail? Doesn't really matter, I suppose - he's ended. But I do enjoy his names for Miles - especially 'hyper little dwarf'. And it's interesting that most of the others were surprised that Miles didn't take the bait and head back to the Dendarii. Naismith had a lot of good qualities, but... some not so great ones, too. Lord Vorkosigan has integrity. From wawenri at msn.com Tue Mar 22 14:22:54 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 14:22:54 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just try to post that you don?t think climate change will make the Earth uninhabitable in 20 years and you will be banned within the hour. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Marc Wilson Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 11:21:42 AM To: LMB Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 18:37:55 +0000, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: >On 19/03/2022 15:03, dbernat wrote: >> WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >> >>> I remember the phrase "a buck a bit" from MANY years ago. >>> Today I saw an advertisement for a 16Tb SSD for $119.80. BOGO! >> >> Have SSDs reached 16Tb capacity? > >Not anywhere I've ever shopped. That looked like a great price, and I >wanted to snatch one for myself. > >The largest I've found right now was 8TB, for 700+ euro. Even the >rotating rust disks (which have reached 20TB as far as I've seen, so the >16TB are off the top-off-the-line premium price), are at least three >times the price William quoted. > >William, where did you see that deal? And can I borrow your time machine? It's a popular Facebook scam, inter alia. Remember the "if it seems too good" principle? Western Digital have 18TB models on the market, for prices north of $600. There are 20TB ones from Seagate and WD, but they're all destined for data centres and carry data centre pricing. -- "Work only when someone is watching. Make love as though you don't need the money. Dance and hope no one gets hurt" - Anonymous -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C60abd8e8fa924072a47b08da0b5f4800%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637834801104566222%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=o0%2BJKNazYT63oq0LpjI5vSl7wU3axTlfpahmuss173Q%3D&reserved=0 From lmb at matija.com Tue Mar 22 15:19:11 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 15:19:11 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 22/03/2022 14:22, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Just try to post that you don?t think climate change will make the Earth uninhabitable in 20 years and you will be banned within the hour. Actually, it's the other way around: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/22/facebook-climate-change-environment-groups-suspended https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-denial-spreads-on-facebook-as-scientists-face-restrictions/ https://www.reuters.com/business/cop/facebook-climate-change-can-falsehoods-be-reined-2022-02-23/ From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 15:31:06 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 10:31:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] What Haroche should have done Message-ID: I can't lay my hand on my heart and say that I blame Haroche for resenting the whole "Oh, who cares about your years and years of devoted service? I'm going to have you train this outside hotshot who's been off having adventures so he can be your boss some day!" thing. Personally, if I'd been Haroche, once this plan was broached to me, I'd have smiled a big sweet sugar smile, said "That's a really interesting idea, sir," gone into my office, written out a resignation of my commission, walked back into Simon's office, thrown that on his desk, followed it up with my Impsec eyes, and said: "I quit. I've put in forty years on the job, I've got a pension coming, and I'm done!" And after that, Simon Ilyan would be *dead* to me. If I ran into him, I'd cut him dead. If he showed up at my door, I'd shut it in his face and noisily lock it to keep him out. If we ran into each other at a party I'd snub him. I wouldn't speak to him, wouldn't mention his name---he'd be an unperson as far as I was concerned. That would have got my protest across, very, very emphatically, and without (AFAIK; I'm not clear on the regulations for Impsec personnel resigning, particularly at Haroche's level---is it a "once you're in, you're in for life" deal?) breaking any regulations or laws or other rules. What could Simon do? Go crying to Gregor that his faithful subordinate quit on him? From pouncer at aol.com Tue Mar 22 15:48:59 2022 From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 10:48:59 -0500 Subject: [LMB] What Haroche should have done References: <30412870-624a-3256-7861-dbfe9f18ed10.ref@aol.com> Message-ID: <30412870-624a-3256-7861-dbfe9f18ed10@aol.com> Eric: >(AFAIK; I'm not clear on the regulations for Impsec >personnel resigning, particularly at Haroche's level--- >is it a "once you're in, you're in for life" deal?) Later, Oliver Jole was tipped off about changes to higher command and his own promotion path, and walked away. ImpMil rather than ImpSec, yes, but indicative. Rather than quit, Haroche might have put in for, requested, demanded... a lateral transfer. Refused to train his own boss, yes. Made the objection clear, and been ready to resign if pushed. But a weasel's path to promotion seems to be the norm in that bureaucracy. -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com From matt.msg at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 18:03:36 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 14:03:36 -0400 Subject: [LMB] What Haroche should have done In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am reminded of Gandhi's suggestion for what Germany's Jews should have done in response to persecution by the Nazis: essentially, commit mass suicide as a form of protest. Yes, but they didn't WANT to give up their lives to make a statement; they preferred trying to live. Haroche could have resigned, but he didn't WANT to give up his career. Matt "didn't work out any better for him than them" G. On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 11:31 AM Eric Oppen wrote: > I can't lay my hand on my heart and say that I blame Haroche for resenting > the whole "Oh, who cares about your years and years of devoted service? > I'm going to have you train this outside hotshot who's been off having > adventures so he can be your boss some day!" thing. > > Personally, if I'd been Haroche, once this plan was broached to me, I'd > have smiled a big sweet sugar smile, said "That's a really interesting > idea, sir," gone into my office, written out a resignation of my > commission, walked back into Simon's office, thrown that on his desk, > followed it up with my Impsec eyes, and said: "I quit. I've put in forty > years on the job, I've got a pension coming, and I'm done!" > > And after that, Simon Ilyan would be *dead* to me. If I ran into him, I'd > cut him dead. If he showed up at my door, I'd shut it in his face and > noisily lock it to keep him out. If we ran into each other at a party I'd > snub him. I wouldn't speak to him, wouldn't mention his name---he'd be an > unperson as far as I was concerned. > > That would have got my protest across, very, very emphatically, and without > (AFAIK; I'm not clear on the regulations for Impsec personnel resigning, > particularly at Haroche's level---is it a "once you're in, you're in for > life" deal?) breaking any regulations or laws or other rules. What could > Simon do? Go crying to Gregor that his faithful subordinate quit on him? > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to matt.msg at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From fred.fredex at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 18:48:51 2022 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 14:48:51 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: <9A6527FE-E3A4-4B99-9614-15E75A610159@brazee.net> <0qeh3h9dkocd77761ei00pcfllge3qrvdv@4ax.com> Message-ID: you guys, if you have enough bandwidth to do large uploads, must not be in the US, where most if not all ISPs advertise high speed internet based on their DOWNload speeds, while their upload speeds are not more than 10% of the download. so, I'm getting a little over 100 Mb/s down and around FIVE outbound. and other ISPs are similar. if you want symmetric speeds, it either costs a fortune, or you gotta buy a business contract which also costs a fortune. Fred On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 2:54 PM Harvey Fishman wrote: > The big advantage of Backblaze is that there is no limit on how much you > can back up. Right now I have 9.5 TB there but I have been up to 16 TB. > > The price seems to have gone up. It was $60.00 when I signed up and I > believe it was for two years. I still have several months to go. Still, > I do not believe that there is any other choice for unlimited backup. > Let me know if you find one. > > Harvey > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Marc Wilson" > To: "LMB" > Bcc: fishman at panix.com > Sent: 3/21/2022 1:52:46 PM > Subject: Re: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 > > >On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 20:47:37 +0000, "Harvey Fishman" > >wrote: > > > >> > >> > >>------ Original Message ------ > >>From: "Marc Wilson" > >>To: "LMB" > >>Bcc: fishman at panix.com > >>Sent: 3/7/2022 4:17:12 AM > >>Subject: Re: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 > >> > >>>3. If you use the Kindle ecosystem, you can't lose books, because > >>>they're stored in your account and can be re-downloaded, up to six > >>>current devices. Other systems are available. > >> > >>Similarly Baen. Kindle and Baen are the only two services that I use to > >>download directly to my Kindle. All others I download to my local disks > >>first, and my local disks are continuously backed up to the cloud by > >>Backblaze. I strongly recommend Backblaze if your ISP offers reasonable > >>upload speeds. For $60 a year, I get unlimited uploads and quite > >>reasonable recovery; it saved my arse several times over the years. > > > >I have enough speed to use it, but it's $70 per device per year. > >Checking out other options. > >-- > >News: rich people paying rich people to tell middleclass people to blame > poor people. > > - graffito > > > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From fred.fredex at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 18:54:44 2022 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 14:54:44 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: <66be615f-de25-8bc2-a4e6-bb7937d62893@matija.com> <3tdk2h154i0kr0f7huer312fbcouqnq1ki@4ax.com> Message-ID: most (if not all) the systems I've seen use 00:00:00.000000000000 as midnight, and also as the first instant of the new day. since there IS no 24:00:00 in that way of counting time, midnight obviously (??) must be the start of the day, not the end of it. when one is (as I did in my last job) trying to interface between disparate systems, that distinction becomes critical (not to mention a pain in the kiester). AFAIK, no standards body has chosen to work in this area, to reduce confusion, but merely because I don't know about it doesn't mean it hasn't been done. But if it has been standardized, too many people ignore the standard! ISO, maybe? fred On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 2:57 PM Howard Brazee wrote: > > > > On Mar 21, 2022, at 11:42 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: > > > >>> *By convention*, and based on the Principle of Least Surprise, Midnight > >>> is 12am and midday is 12pm. It's arbitrary, in a sense, but that's how > >>> it is. > >> > >> Why is that ?Least Surprise?? > > > > A second later, *with the same hour*, it's unambiguously am, a second > > before, it's 11.59.59 PM. So it doesn't go from 12pm to 12.01.01am, > > which would be ... surprising. > > > > If we all use military time and the 24H clock, it's a non-issue, of > > course. > > It cuts the problem in half. We still have to determine which date > midnight is. Your ?least surprise? would indicate that the closest future > midnight has tomorrow?s date. But if you asked for a ride to pick you up > at midnight tomorrow, there could very likely be a surprise. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Tue Mar 22 18:56:56 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 14:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: <9A6527FE-E3A4-4B99-9614-15E75A610159@brazee.net> <0qeh3h9dkocd77761ei00pcfllge3qrvdv@4ax.com> Message-ID: Most backup systems only backup what has changed since the last backup, which is generally only a small fraction of an entire dataset. That would make Harvey's scheme practical. Alayne On Tue, 22 Mar 2022, Fred wrote: > you guys, if you have enough bandwidth to do large uploads, must not be in > the US, where most if not all ISPs advertise high speed internet based on > their DOWNload speeds, while their upload speeds are not more than 10% of > the download. so, I'm getting a little over 100 Mb/s down and around FIVE > outbound. and other ISPs are similar. if you want symmetric speeds, it > either costs a fortune, or you gotta buy a business contract which also > costs a fortune. > > Fred > > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 2:54 PM Harvey Fishman wrote: > >> The big advantage of Backblaze is that there is no limit on how much you >> can back up. Right now I have 9.5 TB there but I have been up to 16 TB. >> >> The price seems to have gone up. It was $60.00 when I signed up and I >> believe it was for two years. I still have several months to go. Still, >> I do not believe that there is any other choice for unlimited backup. >> Let me know if you find one. -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From howard at brazee.net Tue Mar 22 19:08:43 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:08:43 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: <66be615f-de25-8bc2-a4e6-bb7937d62893@matija.com> <3tdk2h154i0kr0f7huer312fbcouqnq1ki@4ax.com> Message-ID: <66A19F86-70AD-4789-A137-F56F003E8614@brazee.net> > On Mar 22, 2022, at 12:54 PM, Fred wrote: > > AFAIK, no standards body has chosen to work in this area, to reduce > confusion, but merely because I don't know about it doesn't mean it hasn't > been done. But if it has been standardized, too many people ignore the > standard! An issue is when a ?regular? person tells his smart phone to wake him up on midnight of the 20th of the month. That person and the software need to agree on whether that midnight is at the start or the end of the 20th. From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Tue Mar 22 19:09:26 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 15:09:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] What Haroche should have done In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Strangely enough, Haroche's actions in this case are those of someone who sees himself in a weak position and has to take underhanded actions. In reality, he was a decorated officer of excellent repute and should have dealt with this completely differently. At the very first time Simon asked him to train Miles as Simon's successor, Haroche should have said "What the hell" and "Why am I not being considered for this position?" and if that didn't work, asked for a transfer elsewhere in the military. We are not given any indications that Simon was egotistic or unwilling to listen to objections - more just overworked and overly focused - so someone pointing out that this might not be the best course could in fact work. Of course he was intimidated by Simon and by Miles' position, but at some point you have to just stand up for yourself. If he'd chosen that path - regardless of the consequences - he might in fact have made a perfectly good head of ImpSec. Alayne On Tue, 22 Mar 2022, Matthew George wrote: > I am reminded of Gandhi's suggestion for what Germany's Jews should have > done in response to persecution by the Nazis: essentially, commit mass > suicide as a form of protest. > > Yes, but they didn't WANT to give up their lives to make a statement; they > preferred trying to live. > > Haroche could have resigned, but he didn't WANT to give up his career. > > Matt "didn't work out any better for him than them" G. > > On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 11:31 AM Eric Oppen wrote: > >> I can't lay my hand on my heart and say that I blame Haroche for resenting >> the whole "Oh, who cares about your years and years of devoted service? >> I'm going to have you train this outside hotshot who's been off having >> adventures so he can be your boss some day!" thing. >> >> Personally, if I'd been Haroche, once this plan was broached to me, I'd >> have smiled a big sweet sugar smile, said "That's a really interesting >> idea, sir," gone into my office, written out a resignation of my >> commission, walked back into Simon's office, thrown that on his desk, >> followed it up with my Impsec eyes, and said: "I quit. I've put in forty >> years on the job, I've got a pension coming, and I'm done!" >> >> And after that, Simon Ilyan would be *dead* to me. If I ran into him, I'd >> cut him dead. If he showed up at my door, I'd shut it in his face and >> noisily lock it to keep him out. If we ran into each other at a party I'd >> snub him. I wouldn't speak to him, wouldn't mention his name---he'd be an >> unperson as far as I was concerned. >> >> That would have got my protest across, very, very emphatically, and without >> (AFAIK; I'm not clear on the regulations for Impsec personnel resigning, >> particularly at Haroche's level---is it a "once you're in, you're in for >> life" deal?) breaking any regulations or laws or other rules. What could >> Simon do? Go crying to Gregor that his faithful subordinate quit on him? >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to matt.msg at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> > -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Tue Mar 22 19:10:44 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 15:10:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 27 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, this is so sad, as Haroche sees the irredeemable consequences of his actions -- just as Miles did earlier in the book. Alayne -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From fishman at panix.com Tue Mar 22 19:57:11 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 19:57:11 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: <9A6527FE-E3A4-4B99-9614-15E75A610159@brazee.net> <0qeh3h9dkocd77761ei00pcfllge3qrvdv@4ax.com> Message-ID: Get a fiber provider. I use Verizon FIOS, which gives me speeds of typically 800 Mb/s down and 900 Mb/s up. This costs me $102.75 per month with all taxes and includes phone service and all equipment (modem and router). I do not have TV service as I do not have a TV set. I find them quite reliable, though it can be a pain to get help if there is a problem. The problem with FIOS is that they do not serve all areas of the country, but I live in the Northeast. Look for fiber providers in your area; do a Google search for them. They all have similar services and prices and fiber tends to have symmetrical speeds. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "Fred" To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 3/22/2022 2:48:51 PM Subject: Re: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 >you guys, if you have enough bandwidth to do large uploads, must not be in >the US, where most if not all ISPs advertise high speed internet based on >their DOWNload speeds, while their upload speeds are not more than 10% of >the download. so, I'm getting a little over 100 Mb/s down and around FIVE >outbound. and other ISPs are similar. if you want symmetric speeds, it >either costs a fortune, or you gotta buy a business contract which also >costs a fortune. > >Fred > > >On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 2:54 PM Harvey Fishman wrote: > >> The big advantage of Backblaze is that there is no limit on how much you >> can back up. Right now I have 9.5 TB there but I have been up to 16 TB. >> >> The price seems to have gone up. It was $60.00 when I signed up and I >> believe it was for two years. I still have several months to go. Still, >> I do not believe that there is any other choice for unlimited backup. >> Let me know if you find one. >> >> Harvey >> >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "Marc Wilson" >> To: "LMB" >> Bcc: fishman at panix.com >> Sent: 3/21/2022 1:52:46 PM >> Subject: Re: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 >> >> >On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 20:47:37 +0000, "Harvey Fishman" >> >wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> >> >>------ Original Message ------ >> >>From: "Marc Wilson" >> >>To: "LMB" >> >>Bcc: fishman at panix.com >> >>Sent: 3/7/2022 4:17:12 AM >> >>Subject: Re: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 >> >> >> >>>3. If you use the Kindle ecosystem, you can't lose books, because >> >>>they're stored in your account and can be re-downloaded, up to six >> >>>current devices. Other systems are available. >> >> >> >>Similarly Baen. Kindle and Baen are the only two services that I use to >> >>download directly to my Kindle. All others I download to my local disks >> >>first, and my local disks are continuously backed up to the cloud by >> >>Backblaze. I strongly recommend Backblaze if your ISP offers reasonable >> >>upload speeds. For $60 a year, I get unlimited uploads and quite >> >>reasonable recovery; it saved my arse several times over the years. >> > >> >I have enough speed to use it, but it's $70 per device per year. >> >Checking out other options. >> >-- >> >News: rich people paying rich people to tell middleclass people to blame >> poor people. >> > - graffito >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com >>Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From domelouann at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 21:07:53 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 16:07:53 -0500 Subject: [LMB] What Haroche should have done In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 10:31 AM Eric Oppen wrote: > > Personally, if I'd been Haroche, once this plan was broached to me, I'd > have smiled a big sweet sugar smile, said "That's a really interesting > idea, sir," gone into my office, written out a resignation of my > commission, walked back into Simon's office, thrown that on his desk, > followed it up with my Impsec eyes, and said: "I quit. I've put in forty > years on the job, I've got a pension coming, and I'm done!" > And like Pouncer's suggestion that Haroche could have asked for a lateral transfer, that would have made you an honest man. Haroche had options, but he thought his desire to be head of ImpSec was more important than anything and everything else including lives. From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 21:14:02 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 16:14:02 -0500 Subject: [LMB] What Haroche should have done In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One reason I didn't think of a lateral transfer is that I wasn't sure but that an ex-Impsec man would be able to transfer elsewhere in the military. Too many secrets in his head. On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 4:08 PM Louann Miller wrote: > On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 10:31 AM Eric Oppen > wrote: > > > > > Personally, if I'd been Haroche, once this plan was broached to me, I'd > > have smiled a big sweet sugar smile, said "That's a really interesting > > idea, sir," gone into my office, written out a resignation of my > > commission, walked back into Simon's office, thrown that on his desk, > > followed it up with my Impsec eyes, and said: "I quit. I've put in forty > > years on the job, I've got a pension coming, and I'm done!" > > > > And like Pouncer's suggestion that Haroche could have asked for a lateral > transfer, that would have made you an honest man. Haroche had options, but > he thought his desire to be head of ImpSec was more important than anything > and everything else including lives. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Tue Mar 22 21:27:08 2022 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 21:27:08 +0000 Subject: [LMB] ot: cute cat pics Message-ID: <2209aeca-31d5-6a9d-cbcb-494f406e3aab@mindspring.com> Just because. https://www.boredpanda.com/cute-cats-pics/ ? Jerrie From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Mar 22 22:06:33 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 22:06:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] What Haroche should have done In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Gwynne: I think that, when Miles comes back to life and Simon asks Haroche to train him, he should have said, "You've just named me as your successor. So am I training Vorkosigan to replace me as Head of Domestic Affairs?" He should have made his feelings clear at that point. I understand his feelings when, after being named as successor, he's not only demoted, but asked to train his new boss. (I think this shows that Simon was tired, not thinking and overworked at that time. Maybe it was the reaction to Miles being dead, lost, then alive again.) What loses him all my sympathy, apart from what he did, was the timing. He grabbed those capsules the day that Miles was fired. He didn't go to see Simon and ask what was happening now, if he was the successor again. He didn't tell Simon that he was getting tired, making mistakes, and not coping. The idea to use the capsules didn't come to him in a moment as he watched Miles leave. He had that idea already, he'd toyed with it; if Miles hadn't been involved, how long would it have been before he used the capsules anyway, to hurry Simon's retirement? So it wasn't the way they treated him about Miles that was to blame. He was ready to act anyway, that just pushed his timetable. From rgmolpus at flash.net Tue Mar 22 22:36:19 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 22:36:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] What Haroche should have done In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1735580956.1250005.1647988579597@mail.yahoo.com> He could have transferred to Service Security. He could have become their commander - he is, after all, a General. On Tuesday, March 22, 2022, 04:14:28 PM CDT, Eric Oppen wrote: One reason I didn't think of a lateral transfer is that I wasn't sure but that an ex-Impsec man would be able to transfer elsewhere in the military. Too many secrets in his head. From howard at brazee.net Tue Mar 22 23:04:35 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 17:04:35 -0600 Subject: [LMB] What Haroche should have done In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2F2A604C-0810-452D-AD21-224C7336E3F2@brazee.net> > On Mar 22, 2022, at 3:07 PM, Louann Miller wrote: > > And like Pouncer's suggestion that Haroche could have asked for a lateral > transfer, that would have made you an honest man. Haroche had options, but > he thought his desire to be head of ImpSec was more important than anything > and everything else including lives. I imagine he also thought that he was the best man to run ImpSec, certainly better than Miles. From agnes at charrel.net Tue Mar 22 23:11:39 2022 From: agnes at charrel.net (Agnes Charrel-Berthillier) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 16:11:39 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7235f45a-2619-5972-7094-81f78b3d62dd@charrel.net> On 3/22/22 07:22, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > Just try to post that you don?t think climate change will make the Earth uninhabitable in 20 years and you will be banned within the hour. > From Amazon? Sounds... unlikely. Agnes From a_neff at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 23 00:26:27 2022 From: a_neff at bellsouth.net (a_neff at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 19:26:27 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory and The Vor Game References: <00f001d83e4c$a3b786a0$eb2693e0$.ref@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <00f001d83e4c$a3b786a0$eb2693e0$@bellsouth.net> I have been listening to LMB's audio books, and in the Vorkosiverse in a sequence of my choosing. I've read all the books several times over the past *cough* years, but only started audiobooks recently. So Cordelia's Honor first, then Memory, Komarr, Civil Campaign., and Winterfair I struggle through the first few chapters of Memory because Miles is such a self-centered jerk - not only with falsifying his report, but in how he treats Taura, and Elli to an extent. Anyway. I decided to go back to Miles' youth in the Vor Game, and it fits so amazingly well with Memory! There are melodies, or themes, that are developed with complexity and creativity in Memory, but are still true to his 20 year old self. The last chapter, especially, is dense with glimpses of the sapling Miles who grows to the full adult in Memory and Komarr. There is a fantastic bit when he is talking with Simon Illyan, about his everlasting lack of subordination, and he says that the Ensign wasn't right, that the situation called for Lord Vorkosigan, or maybe Admiral Naismith. He still considered himself Lord Vorkosigan first just then, and Naismith is a disguise. Lovely, lovely foreshadowing. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 23:33:10 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 18:33:10 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 27 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Beautifully expressed explanation of Ch 27. I have always wondered what the punishment Haroche received. I don't know if he had received the death sentence, but I think a life spent realizing how badly he betrayed his Emperor would be a worse punishment. On Tue, Mar 22, 2022, 8:04 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Poor Ivan, he's been witness to some horrible and very scary events. No > wonder he loves his job in Ops so much. Ivan's going to be a witness, and > possibly a bodyguard, if necessary (Although I think Simon, even in his > current state, could do a lot of damage if he had to. He'd probably enjoy > it, too.) > > Gregor's better idea is, of course, Gregor. > > The team is Gregor, Miles, Simon and Ivan - because Gregor thought that > ordinary guards might inhibit Haroche's honesty. (Frankly I think that > Simon, > at least, might put him off a bit. Miles... line call. Might shut him up, > or set > him off - that's pretty common with Miles.) > > The cell is... a cell. Miles has seen worse, and better. (He's a bit of a > connoiseur, when it comes to incarceration.) Haroche has no > tunic or boots, just pants and shirt. (Lacerating to his sensibilities, no > doubt. Not that I care.) > > Seeing the first three brings hostility from Haroche. The fourth one > freezes him. He doesn't attempt a salute. > > No armsmen. Miles figures it'd take Haroche a moment to kill him, > giving Gregor time to get away. And they're all sealed into that cell. > It's claustrophobic, intense, and in a way a moment out of time. > > Gregor asks for his last report. Ohhh this will be a killing memory for > Haroche, for the rest of his life (Still not feeling the sympathy.) > > Gregor is quietly angry. Miles hadn't seen him like this - after all, > Gregor > went to school at 12, then Miles and Gregor were both involved in > school, Academy, career, adult life - on different timetables. Miles > has interacted with Gregor as an adult, but not to see him angry - > Gregor doesn't get this angry very often. He can't afford to. (No wonder > Ivan and Miles would both hate Gregor's job. Who'd want to live > like that.) > > Haroche knew about the bugs when they were first captured: > "...Then I won my promotion to head of Domestic Affairs, the Yarrow case, > do you remember that . . . sir?" This to Illyan. "You said my work on it > was superb." > "No, Lucas," Illyan's voice was falsely pleasant. "Can't say as I do." > > Bit of a nasty moment after that one. Ha. > > He saw Miles, Simon's pet, and heard that Miles was being groomed to > succeed Simon. He knew that Miles was some sort of supreme covert > agent. Then Miles was killed, "...though as it turned out... not quite > dead enough." Yes, that went down well. > > Simon named Haroche as next in line. Then Miles was back, and > Haroche was asked to train him (I love 'hyperactive, and > insubordinate as hell... Said I'd either love him or hate him, > though some people do both...' Simon was pretty honest.) > > Haroche didn't want to train his next boss - and ok, yes, I do > understand that. A bit. Then Miles self-destructed, spectacularly. > And Haroche was head of the line again. > > Ok to that point I have some sympathy. But... BUT... The day > that Miles 'resigned', THAT DAY, that afternoon, he went and > got the capsules. No. Just no. There's no excuse for that. > He wanted to move up while he was at his peak, and Simon > was getting tired, talking of resigning but didn't... sure, some > miserable justifications. He used the first one a few days later. > Oh, so he wrestled with temptation a while? Sure - there was > no way he wasn't going to do it. Dosed him again after a week, > because nothing seemed to be happening. > > And the next miserable justification: it wasn't going to kill > Simon, just toss him out of the job. Actually, it probably would > have killed him if Miles hadn't stepped in. Haroche would have > justified that somehow, too. > > He wasn't going to frame anyone - gee thanks - but if it had to > be someone he wanted Miles. Because he deserved it - he > should have been charged after the lies. (He'd done ten years > of brilliant work. Saved the Empire a few times, saved plenty > of people, done amazing good work. Ten damn years. And then > he made one bad move, one mistake. Didn't ten years count > for anything? Haroche thought that his Yarrow success was > justification for everything he did.) > > But he made a nice frame for Miles, just in case, then Miles > popped up as an Auditor, so that wasn't going to work. > (I do love 'hyper little dwarf'). Miles drove him crazy, wouldn't > take the bait to go to JW, was always THERE, under his feet, in > his way. One more week and it would have been fine, but no - > Miles was too quick so he had to frame someone. See? Not > his fault, he was FORCED to do it. And Duv was there, and > fitted so well, and might embarrass the Empress... 'Who would > miss him?'....That line basically sums up Haroche's attitude. > > Gregor is grey with rage. > > And 'The little git still wouldn't give up...' He found the capsules > in three days; it was meant to take three MONTHS. 'I had to get > rid of him before I strangled him' so he pushed the Galeni frame. > (I get the feeling that Haroche's nightmares from now on will > feature Miles.) > > So he gave him the bait he wanted, and it so nearly worked and > then... he's back AGAIN, with his tame scientist, and it was all over. > > What bait? Miles explains. All three of the others are amazed that > he didn't tell them, or take it (Yes... Miles has to do some work > introducing them ALL to Lord Vorkosigan.) > > So why didn't he take it...? It would sacrifice Duv. It would let > Haroche run rampant, controlling information to Gregor. Soon > there'd be manipulation. > > Miles doesn't want to fight about it with Haroche. Let him have > all his justifications, whatever - he's lost, it's done. Miles isn't > a gloater. > > "It wasn't murder... Simon wasn't even hurt!" Not a good > choice as a final line. > > Miles doesn't want to charge him for the bribery attempt, it > would just be painful in court and there's no need for it. > > And of course, the best line: why didn't he take the bribe? > 'The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is > your heart.' - Miles has learned his lesson. > > Part two of this chapter tomorrow, that's enough or tonight. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 23:44:17 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 18:44:17 -0500 Subject: [LMB] ot: cute cat pics In-Reply-To: <2209aeca-31d5-6a9d-cbcb-494f406e3aab@mindspring.com> References: <2209aeca-31d5-6a9d-cbcb-494f406e3aab@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Awww! On Tue, Mar 22, 2022, 4:27 PM wrote: > Just because. > https://www.boredpanda.com/cute-cats-pics/ > > Jerrie > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Tue Mar 22 23:45:50 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 17:45:50 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 27 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 22, 2022, at 5:33 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > Beautifully expressed explanation of Ch 27. > I have always wondered what the punishment Haroche received. I don't know > if he had received the death sentence, but I think a life spent realizing > how badly he betrayed his Emperor would be a worse punishment. I agree. It?s funny to talk about him as if he was principled. But I think he had corrupted principles. There are many people who are just bad and never had principles. From lmb at matija.com Wed Mar 23 07:32:27 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 07:32:27 +0000 Subject: [LMB] What Haroche should have done In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 22/03/2022 19:09, alayne--- via Lois-Bujold wrote: > Strangely enough, Haroche's actions in this case are those of someone > who sees himself in a weak position and has to take underhanded actions. > > In reality, he was a decorated officer of excellent repute and should > have dealt with this completely differently. I agree. If Haroche had any kind of trust relationship with Illyan, he should have gone to Illyan, and asked "What the hXll? What do you plan for me to do, after I train my replacement?". If he did NOT have a trust relationship, why would he expect to be promoted to Illyan's position, anyway? One would expect that, having reached the general's rank, he was familiar with the concept of Vors "jumping the queue" and being promoted less on merit than on connections, but you'd expect that he had evolved coping strategies for that. Or, possibly, impsec is a place that doesn't much appeal to Vor (it's not "ship service"), so it might be short on Vors and long on merit (have we ever seen Illyan doing favors to connected Vors?). A casual observer might even see the coming promotion of a Vorkosigan to the head of Impsec as a major political shift, where the Vor class takes over impsec as first step of a bigger societal takeover. Would Haroche have the insight to use impsec resources to see if that was what was happening, or would he just give in to his own paranoia (a common risk in the spying professions)? Anyway, there were a number of courses he could have taken, that would not have involved professional suicide: a) If Vorkosigan proved to be incompetent, Haroche could be a grey eminence, leading things from behind Vorkosigan, and letting Vorkosigan take the heat if ever a scheme went wrong. b) If he couldn't stomach working under Vorkosigan, he could request a lateral move to fleet intelligence. He wouldn't run fleet intelligence, but he would be pretty close to the top, possibly working in the Barrayaran equivalent of the joint chiefs of staff. (Not as a chief of staff, but directly reporting to a chief of staff). c) If he had entirely soured on serving the emperor, he could have found employment in one of Barrayar's bigger corporations. Large corporations are always looking for information on global events (particularly before they happen). Someone with a deep understanding of interplanetary events and influences, *and* with ties to the intelligence community, would surely command a premium. d) If he couldn't find employment on Barrayar, he would surely find it on Komarr - the trading fleets could always use more intelligence. Before someone says he couldn't go to Komarr: Komarr has been in the empire for 30-40 years now, I don't think it would be that much of a problem, given that he would be moving openly, with the blessing of impsec. In fact, a two way conduit between impsec and Komarran trading fleets might be beneficial to both sides, and to the conduit. In short, not only did Haroche cross bridges he shouldn't have crossed, and burned bridges he shouldn't have burned, but he did it in a way that showed he was unsuitable for the position of head of impsec. Lack of proper intelligence assessment into what is actually going on, lack of good, timely backup plans (backup plans made up under pressure of events rather then being there from the start),? and all-in-all, lack of real subtlety. > > At the very first time Simon asked him to train Miles as Simon's > successor, Haroche should have said "What the hell" and "Why am I not > being considered for this position?" and if that didn't work, asked > for a transfer elsewhere in the military. > > We are not given any indications that Simon was egotistic or unwilling > to listen to objections - more just overworked and overly focused - so > someone pointing out that this might not be the best course could in > fact work. > > Of course he was intimidated by Simon and by Miles' position, but at > some point you have to just stand up for yourself. If he'd chosen that > path - regardless of the consequences - he might in fact have made a > perfectly good head of ImpSec. > > Alayne > > On Tue, 22 Mar 2022, Matthew George wrote: > >> I am reminded of Gandhi's suggestion for what Germany's Jews should have >> done in response to persecution by the Nazis:? essentially, commit mass >> suicide as a form of protest. >> >> Yes, but they didn't WANT to give up their lives to make a statement; >> they >> preferred trying to live. >> >> Haroche could have resigned, but he didn't WANT to give up his career. >> >> Matt "didn't work out any better for him than them" G. >> >> On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 11:31 AM Eric Oppen >> wrote: >> >>> I can't lay my hand on my heart and say that I blame Haroche for >>> resenting >>> the whole "Oh, who cares about your years and years of devoted service? >>> I'm going to have you train this outside hotshot who's been off having >>> adventures so he can be your boss some day!" thing. >>> >>> Personally, if I'd been Haroche, once this plan was broached to me, I'd >>> have smiled a big sweet sugar smile, said "That's a really interesting >>> idea, sir," gone into my office, written out a resignation of my >>> commission, walked back into Simon's office, thrown that on his desk, >>> followed it up with my Impsec eyes, and said: "I quit.? I've put in >>> forty >>> years on the job, I've got a pension coming, and I'm done!" >>> >>> And after that, Simon Ilyan would be *dead* to me.? If I ran into >>> him, I'd >>> cut him dead.? If he showed up at my door, I'd shut it in his face and >>> noisily lock it to keep him out. If we ran into each other at a >>> party I'd >>> snub him.? I wouldn't speak to him, wouldn't mention his name---he'd >>> be an >>> unperson as far as I was concerned. >>> >>> That would have got my protest across, very, very emphatically, and >>> without >>> (AFAIK; I'm not clear on the regulations for Impsec personnel >>> resigning, >>> particularly at Haroche's level---is it a "once you're in, you're in >>> for >>> life" deal?) breaking any regulations or laws or other rules. What >>> could >>> Simon do?? Go crying to Gregor that his faithful subordinate quit on >>> him? >>> -- >>> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to matt.msg at gmail.com >>> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >>> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >>> >> > From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 23 13:42:21 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 13:42:21 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 27 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Howard Brazee > On Mar 22, 2022, at 5:33 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > Beautifully expressed explanation of Ch 27. > I have always wondered what the punishment Haroche received. I don't know > if he had received the death sentence, but I think a life spent realizing > how badly he betrayed his Emperor would be a worse punishment. I agree. It?s funny to talk about him as if he was principled. But I think he had corrupted principles. There are many people who are just bad and never had principles. Gwynne: Haroche got results, and Simon liked results. He must have had a good relationship with Haroche, because he used his first name in conversation - they'd had some kind of friendship. Given that, Haroche should have been able to go to Simon and ask about his status as next in line. He should have been able to say something about Miles. But he didn't. And he went straight for those capsules as soon as Miles was fired, he didn't speak to Simon. He'd planned the attack already. If Miles had been placed in Domestic Affairs, what were the odds that Haroche would have used the capsules while he still outranked Miles, in ?hopes of grabbing the top job while he still had a chance? From rgmolpus at flash.net Wed Mar 23 15:42:04 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 15:42:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] What Haroche should have done In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <409810396.1425670.1648050124419@mail.yahoo.com> haroche would have been aware of the 'Dirty Angels' program; maybe not knowing their names, but knowing how the program worked and it's goals.? If he had any compositional skills, he could have retired, and written a series about a 'Circus Worker'; a mid-gradde Vor who did all sorts of daring-do to protect the Empire.? Think James Bond starring Byerly.? Impsec would have to clear the text before publishing, but with a good ghost wroter it could have become wildly popular; especially when it was bought for a movie. Eat your heart out, LeCarre! On Wednesday, March 23, 2022, 02:32:45 AM CDT, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: On 22/03/2022 19:09, alayne--- via Lois-Bujold wrote: > Strangely enough, Haroche's actions in this case are those of someone > who sees himself in a weak position and has to take underhanded actions. > > In reality, he was a decorated officer of excellent repute and should > have dealt with this completely differently. I agree. If Haroche had any kind of trust relationship with Illyan, he should have gone to Illyan, and asked "What the hXll? What do you plan for me to do, after I train my replacement?". If he did NOT have a trust relationship, why would he expect to be promoted to Illyan's position, anyway? One would expect that, having reached the general's rank, he was familiar with the concept of Vors "jumping the queue" and being promoted less on merit than on connections, but you'd expect that he had evolved coping strategies for that. Or, possibly, impsec is a place that doesn't much appeal to Vor (it's not "ship service"), so it might be short on Vors and long on merit (have we ever seen Illyan doing favors to connected Vors?). A casual observer might even see the coming promotion of a Vorkosigan to the head of Impsec as a major political shift, where the Vor class takes over impsec as first step of a bigger societal takeover. Would Haroche have the insight to use impsec resources to see if that was what was happening, or would he just give in to his own paranoia (a common risk in the spying professions)? Anyway, there were a number of courses he could have taken, that would not have involved professional suicide: a) If Vorkosigan proved to be incompetent, Haroche could be a grey eminence, leading things from behind Vorkosigan, and letting Vorkosigan take the heat if ever a scheme went wrong. b) If he couldn't stomach working under Vorkosigan, he could request a lateral move to fleet intelligence. He wouldn't run fleet intelligence, but he would be pretty close to the top, possibly working in the Barrayaran equivalent of the joint chiefs of staff. (Not as a chief of staff, but directly reporting to a chief of staff). c) If he had entirely soured on serving the emperor, he could have found employment in one of Barrayar's bigger corporations. Large corporations are always looking for information on global events (particularly before they happen). Someone with a deep understanding of interplanetary events and influences, *and* with ties to the intelligence community, would surely command a premium. d) If he couldn't find employment on Barrayar, he would surely find it on Komarr - the trading fleets could always use more intelligence. Before someone says he couldn't go to Komarr: Komarr has been in the empire for 30-40 years now, I don't think it would be that much of a problem, given that he would be moving openly, with the blessing of impsec. In fact, a two way conduit between impsec and Komarran trading fleets might be beneficial to both sides, and to the conduit. In short, not only did Haroche cross bridges he shouldn't have crossed, and burned bridges he shouldn't have burned, but he did it in a way that showed he was unsuitable for the position of head of impsec. Lack of proper intelligence assessment into what is actually going on, lack of good, timely backup plans (backup plans made up under pressure of events rather then being there from the start),? and all-in-all, lack of real subtlety. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 23 15:59:31 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 15:59:31 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 27 Part 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Memory - Ch 27 Part 2 Writing the report took longer than solving the case. Miles did more running around, too; tracking people down for testimony, and chasing up all the details. Miles is incredibly thorough. You'd expect someone with his 'forward momentum' attitude to skip over the boring reports, but Simon trained him well. And he wanted this one to be perfect. (Is this a sort of farewell too? His last report to/about ImpSec.) In the middle of it all: Ivan. Who we really do need in this book as - well, not exactly comic relief, but to lighten the mood. At the beginning when Miles was so depressed we had Ivan and the ice bath, now with all the bitterness of the crime-solving we have Ivan discovering that Alys and Simon are bonking their brains out in Miles's spare room. (Let's face it, this is hardly the worst thing that either of them have done in their lives.) Ivan isn't sure how he's supposed to feel about it all (to be fair, just before he got to Miles he'd had a session with Cordelia. Which can be quite unsettling. Or upsetting. Or both.) The two of them being who they are, it's not likely that there'll be much backlash about it all. (Miles's first reaction had been to admire Simon's nerve; that'll probably be fairly common.) And I love Simon's way of choosing a holiday destination: if he's never heard of it, it must be safe. Miles pushes the positives: Alys won't have time to nag Ivan about getting married. Ivan seems... almost upset by that. He's drifting towards the idea of marriage. Well, Gregor is finally getting married, so now it's safe for Ivan to have a wife and family too. Miles books the appointment to get his head checked again prior to the surgery. He's feeling a bit like a lab rat. But the whole issue isn't the massive problem it had been before. His perspective is very different now. Simon has been wandering around the city. Miles panics, but Cordelia has been far more sensible and helpful than most of the rest of them: she gave him a map and an ipad. He can navigate himself around anywhere, and he can keep notes to remind himself of things - just like everyone else. (Miles is getting a chip in his brain, Simon gets maps and notepads. They're both finding solutions to their problems.) One night they manage a quiet dinner, just Miles, Simon and Cordelia. Miles spends most of the time blocking Cordelia's plans to kidnap his cook. Aral is arriving soon for the betrothal, then they go back until the wedding. She seems very happy to be on Sergyar most of the time; at least it stops people from trying to drag Aral into more politics. (I always thought they'd end their days at Vorkosigan Surleau, where their married life began. But I suppose their story started on Sergyar, so it's full circle there.) Miles will finish his report in a few days. Then... he's not sure. But at least now he's not dismal about it, he knows there'll be something useful to do (his poor District could do with some attention, for a start.) Simon's moving out. Not to Alys's place, he's going to have an official home a few blocks from hers. He's not planning to be a consultant, either; he wants a clean break. It's probably a good idea: Allegre is being thrown in at the deep end, but then so was Haroche. And Simon. And Negri. Definitely a tradition. Finally the wretched report is done. Miles makes an appointment to deliver it - the end of an era in his life. And he sets up an appointment for the brain surgery. Out with the old, on with the new. Speaking of new, once Simon has moved out Miles decides that Piotr's suite of rooms is far better than Miles's small bedroom. So he moves in. Cordelia thinks it's a great idea - that little room was chosen for safety. Moving out of the childhood bedroom is another step towards the future. He also sends a message to Elli - that's easier now, too. New rooms, head fixed, message to Elli - Miles might not know what he's going to do yet, but he's really taking big steps forward now, heading into the future. As himself. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 23 16:10:50 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 16:10:50 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 27 - Part 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On the face of it, this section is nuts-and-bolts, it's all just details about minor stuff being sorted out, things finished off, nothing new happens. There is a - well, not let-down, but a sense of exhaustion in the reader, after all the tension. Now we're in a patch of calm. But there's a lot happening, all the same. Cordelia gives Simon a map and a notebook - a very practical response to the problem, and it really does help him. Simon gets his own place, farewells ImpSec, and revels in his romance with Alys. He's planning a holiday, too. Simon is having fun. For Simon, life is in many ways better now than it has been for a long time. Yes, as Harra said, you go on, and find your life again. Miles finishes the report, in painstaking detail. No chance of wriggling out of it, Haroche. He lets the doctors check out his head, and makes the appointment to get it fixed. He moves to new rooms, for a grown-up, instead of his childhood bedroom. He sends a message to Elli. Miles and Simon were both betrayed by their own brains, they both lost their careers, and their identity (Simon is famous for his memory, now it's hazy. Miles lost Naismith.) They both suffered, and they've both come through and started making positive steps towards their futures. As Harra said, you just go on. From wawenri at msn.com Wed Mar 23 16:18:53 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 16:18:53 +0000 Subject: [LMB] News Message-ID: I just read that the crash of the China Eastern Airlines Boing 737-800 is being called a human-induced event. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. From howard at brazee.net Wed Mar 23 16:34:24 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 10:34:24 -0600 Subject: [LMB] News In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9D2A0D61-8171-4B9B-BCE8-DC54AF65BD34@brazee.net> > On Mar 23, 2022, at 10:18 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > > I just read that the crash of the China Eastern Airlines Boing 737-800 is being called a human-induced event. That was at the top of the guesses when we see that the plane went straight down. I don?t see a SF full solution to bad evil actions that we are willing to accept. From loisaletafundis at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 16:55:20 2022 From: loisaletafundis at gmail.com (Lois Aleta Fundis) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 12:55:20 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 27 - Part 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, Simon is having fun.. As the Beatles told us many years ago, "Fun is the one thing that money can't buy." Or, as Simon hss also discovered, power, That's from the song "She's Leaving Home." And like the "she" of the song, Simon now has to leave his "home" --ImpSec -- to move on to a new home where, and people with whom, he can now have fun. On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 12:11 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > On the face of it, this section is nuts-and-bolts, it's all just > details about minor stuff being sorted out, things finished off, > nothing new happens. There is a - well, not let-down, but > a sense of exhaustion in the reader, after all the tension. Now > we're in a patch of calm. > > But there's a lot happening, all the same. > > Cordelia gives Simon a map and a notebook - a very practical > response to the problem, and it really does help him. Simon > gets his own place, farewells ImpSec, and revels in his romance > with Alys. He's planning a holiday, too. Simon is having fun. For > Simon, life is in many ways better now than it has been for a > long time. Yes, as Harra said, you go on, and find your life again. > > Miles finishes the report, in painstaking detail. No chance of > wriggling out of it, Haroche. He lets the doctors check out his > head, and makes the appointment to get it fixed. He moves to > new rooms, for a grown-up, instead of his childhood bedroom. > He sends a message to Elli. > > Miles and Simon were both betrayed by their own brains, they > both lost their careers, and their identity (Simon is famous for > his memory, now it's hazy. Miles lost Naismith.) They both > suffered, and they've both come through and started making > positive steps towards their futures. As Harra said, you just go on. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to loisaletafundis at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois Aleta Fundis loisaletafundis at gmail.com [image: image.png] From domelouann at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 17:02:12 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 12:02:12 -0500 Subject: [LMB] News In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 11:19 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: > I just read that the crash of the China Eastern Airlines Boing 737-800 is > being called a human-induced event. > > William A Wenrich > CJ Cherryh was talking about that yesterday. There's some video from an amateur on the ground, apparently, and the trajectory (almost straight down) suggests a pilot augering it in. From tzbarasc at lasierra.edu Wed Mar 23 22:10:22 2022 From: tzbarasc at lasierra.edu (Tony Zbaraschuk) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 17:10:22 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 25 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 8:57 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Haroche basically refuses. Miles mentions that the new Empress > won't be happy about this. Haroche adds, "She seems a very nice > young woman, and it gives me no pleasure to think this may > cause her distress, but I took my oath to Gregor." Which is true > about the oath, but again shows his serious lack of insight, he's > written her off as a sweet nothing. She's smart, she's part of the > biggest family business empire on Komarr, she's on finance > committees and is very well-versed in all things financial. She's > more than a tossed-away 'nice young woman'. > And even if she wasn't anything more than a "nice young woman", she's a nice young woman _who has Gregor's ear all to herself every single night_. Can Haroche possibly be this clueless? Even if Gregor is all that matters to Haroche, he really needs to be aware just how often a wily word in the warlord's ear has been more deadly than a sword. I have, for a while, had a horrible thought: that young Haroche listened to one of Aral Vorkosigan's insistent speeches that everyone was equal in the Emperor's service, Vor or non-Vor; that official rank structure overruled nepotistic connections, that the rulebook mattered ... and took them seriously, as descriptions of reality rather than as a dream to be aspired to. Thoughts? Tony Z -- Tony Zbaraschuk Bookworm, talker, learner Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" From htgriffin at yahoo.com Wed Mar 23 22:38:40 2022 From: htgriffin at yahoo.com (H. Torrance Griffin) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 22:38:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] What Haroche should have done References: <835276578.1232994.1648075120953.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <835276578.1232994.1648075120953@mail.yahoo.com> I would presume that being a departmental head of ImpSec and on Illiyan's Short List I would be in a position to ask... let us not mince words demand what this kid had going for him that I did not (recall that Haroche barely skimmed Vorkosigan's file even well after the deed) and have the clearance to get an honest answer.? If I found the decision founded on nothing but quasi-avuncular nepotisim a prompt resignation or transfer would be in order... however the brains needed for the crap he pulled off as Naismith up to and including the identity's creation would probably have me thinking in terms of eventual Galactic Affairs Chief or better if he calmed the heck down. Still, there may be enough ego involved to make a difference between training the future ImpSec head and training one's own boss.? If Miles did not impress me quite enough for option two I would ask the current boss to give me enough warning so I could have him sign off on my resignation before activating my own. From domelouann at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 23:24:21 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 18:24:21 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unhand Lady Vorpatril! Message-ID: I have to admit, after our group reading of "Memory" I carried on. Like Miles so often does, I got a bit ahead of myself. From profjenn12 at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 23:32:16 2022 From: profjenn12 at gmail.com (J Woodruff) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 19:32:16 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Unhand Lady Vorpatril! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did the same, and I got to the same place. :) JLWT *********** *"der Platz einer Frau ist in ihrer Firma""The problem with the speed of light is it comes so early in the morning." (Albert Einstein)* *"Historiography has then three functions: to entertain our imagination, to gratify our curiosity, and to discharge a debt we owe our ancestors." (C.S. Lewis)"If all we have to offer back to the God of the cosmos is Precious Moments, we're in trouble." (Barbara Nicolosi)* *"Some things are complicated, and denying it only makes them more so." (John Churchill)* *?You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyway.? (Robert Jordan)"The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart." (Lois McMaster Bujold)************ On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 7:24 PM Louann Miller wrote: > I have to admit, after our group reading of "Memory" I carried on. Like > Miles so often does, I got a bit ahead of myself. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to profjenn12 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 02:14:56 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:14:56 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 27 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it was hubris that made Haroche do what he did. He believed he knew better than Simon. He decided for the sake of the Empire and Emperor Gregor that Simon need needed to be removed in the first place. When he realized that he was going to be preempted as head on Imp Sec something snapped. Perhaps he lost faith in Simon completely when Simon allowed Miles to get a medical discharge. He no longer trusted Simon to make the right decisions anymore. So for the sake of the Empire Simon had to go. On Wed, Mar 23, 2022, 8:42 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Howard Brazee > > > On Mar 22, 2022, at 5:33 PM, Raymond Collins wrote: > > Beautifully expressed explanation of Ch 27. > > I have always wondered what the punishment Haroche received. I don't know > > if he had received the death sentence, but I think a life spent realizing > > how badly he betrayed his Emperor would be a worse punishment. > > I agree. It?s funny to talk about him as if he was principled. But I > think he had corrupted principles. There are many people who are just bad > and never had principles. > > Gwynne: Haroche got results, and Simon liked results. He must have > had a good relationship with Haroche, because he used his first name > in conversation - they'd had some kind of friendship. > Given that, Haroche should have been able to go to Simon and ask > about his status as next in line. He should have been able to say something > about Miles. > But he didn't. And he went straight for those capsules as soon as Miles > was fired, he didn't speak to Simon. He'd planned the attack already. > If Miles had been placed in Domestic Affairs, what were the odds that > Haroche would have used the capsules while he still outranked Miles, in > ?hopes of grabbing the top job while he still had a chance? > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 02:35:26 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:35:26 -0500 Subject: [LMB] News In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah I quite agree. The 737-800 is fly-by-wire. The computer would have tried to push back the yoke to level flight. It would have taken alot of pressure to push the yoke forward to make the plane to go straight down like that. Of course the question is, how will the Chinese government react to the crash. On Wed, Mar 23, 2022, 12:02 PM Louann Miller wrote: > On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 11:19 AM WILLIAM A WENRICH > wrote: > > > I just read that the crash of the China Eastern Airlines Boing 737-800 is > > being called a human-induced event. > > > > William A Wenrich > > > > CJ Cherryh was talking about that yesterday. There's some video from an > amateur on the ground, apparently, and the trajectory (almost straight > down) suggests a pilot augering it in. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Mar 24 02:53:54 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 02:53:54 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 25 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Tony Zbaraschuk And even if she wasn't anything more than a "nice young woman", she's a nice young woman _who has Gregor's ear all to herself every single night_. Can Haroche possibly be this clueless? Even if Gregor is all that matters to Haroche, he really needs to be aware just how often a wily word in the warlord's ear has been more deadly than a sword. Gwynne: I think that Haroche sees the military, and its power, as more important than any other channels of power. It's organised, and visible. And there's historical precedent. He's probably never met Alys or Laisa, and he doesn't think that Gregor, his emperor (who he also hasn't met all that often) would believe them more than ImpSec. But also, his comments about both of them are made at times when he's fighting against Miles's pressure. He doesn't want Alys, or anyone, near Simon, so he writes her off. The same for Laisa, when he's trying to push Duv as the culprit. Simon goes to all the High Vor events; and after Simon goes that role passes to Lord Vortala the Younger. I don't think Haroche has seen High Vor life in action. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Mar 24 03:02:42 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 03:02:42 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 27 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Raymond Collins I think it was hubris that made Haroche do what he did. He believed he knew better than Simon. He decided for the sake of the Empire and Emperor Gregor that Simon need needed to be removed in the first place. When he realized that he was going to be preempted as head on Imp Sec something snapped. Perhaps he lost faith in Simon completely when Simon allowed Miles to get a medical discharge. He no longer trusted Simon to make the right decisions anymore. So for the sake of the Empire Simon had to go. Gwynne: Simon calls Haroche by his first name. There's a certain level of friendship there, an informal relationship outside rank and service. He could have asked Simon about it, protested, transferred to some other part of ImpSec, or the service. He didn't even try, or consider that. He knew about those capsules and that's where his mind went. Haroche was so close to the top, he became totally focussed on it. He must have had that plot in his mind for some time; from before Miles came back to life. He was nearly there, and Simon was slowing down but just wouldn't go... he'd already toyed with the idea of giving him a push. Then Miles came back, then he was gone again... and Haroche just didn't want to wait any longer. If Miles hadn't come back, or hadn't been fired, or if they'd tried to transfer him and he'd refused; in other words, if Haroche had stayed as the heir apparent, I think he'd still have used the capsules. He was getting impatient, he wanted his turn. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Mar 24 03:09:33 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 03:09:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unhand Lady Vorpatril! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Louann Miller I have to admit, after our group reading of "Memory" I carried on. Like Miles so often does, I got a bit ahead of myself. Gwynne: I'm so glad that the discussion is having such positive effects. I'm wondering about the next book. We could go on in sequence, and head to Komarr (although we did that a while ago. And it's got Tien in it.) Or ACC (which is always fun although I hated the dinner party scene for ages, it was so shattering.) Or jump to a book I've tended to neglect in my personal rereads, like Ethan of Athos. We always find new and interesting perspectives in an on-board discussion, and it certainly helped me with Falling Free. Or Vor Game has been mentioned. Or, as total self-indulgence, Ivan's book. I'm still mulling, input welcome. From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Thu Mar 24 03:48:56 2022 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 20:48:56 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Unhand Lady Vorpatril! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0FB8244D-BA74-4D08-9EFD-3C601F79A74B@comcast.net> On Mar 23, 2022, at 8:09 PM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > From: Louann Miller > > I have to admit, after our group reading of "Memory" I carried on. Like > Miles so often does, I got a bit ahead of myself. > > Gwynne: I'm so glad that the discussion is having such positive effects. > I'm wondering about the next book. We could go on in sequence, and > head to Komarr (although we did that a while ago. And it's got Tien in it.) > Or ACC (which is always fun although I hated the dinner party scene for > ages, it was so shattering.) Or jump to a book I've tended to neglect in > my personal rereads, like Ethan of Athos. We always find new and > interesting perspectives in an on-board discussion, and it certainly helped > me with Falling Free. Or Vor Game has been mentioned. Or, as total > self-indulgence, Ivan's book. I'm still mulling, input welcome. There is also the aborted discussion of _The Spirit Ring_. "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com From wawenri at msn.com Thu Mar 24 13:11:40 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 13:11:40 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 27 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- Gwynne Powell wrote: If Miles hadn't come back, or hadn't been fired, or if they'd tried to transfer him and he'd refused; in other words, if Haroche had stayed as the heir apparent, I think he'd still have used the capsules. He was getting impatient, he wanted his turn. =============================================== One thing about the "Peter Principle" is that you almost never realize that it happened to you. (Here is where I say that I was an adequate teacher, good programmer/analyst and not a good manager. Happily I wasn't put in a permanent management position.) The phrase "his turn" is specific. How often have we seen it in politics? Haroche was holding down the job as head of domestic affairs, but Simon sems to be keeping some strings to himself. William A Wenrich Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Mar 24 15:06:36 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 15:06:36 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: References: <66be615f-de25-8bc2-a4e6-bb7937d62893@matija.com> <3tdk2h154i0kr0f7huer312fbcouqnq1ki@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 12:57:20 -0600, Howard Brazee wrote: > > >> On Mar 21, 2022, at 11:42 AM, Marc Wilson wrote: >> >>>> *By convention*, and based on the Principle of Least Surprise, Midnight >>>> is 12am and midday is 12pm. It's arbitrary, in a sense, but that's how >>>> it is. >>> >>> Why is that ?Least Surprise?? >> >> A second later, *with the same hour*, it's unambiguously am, a second >> before, it's 11.59.59 PM. So it doesn't go from 12pm to 12.01.01am, >> which would be ... surprising. >> >> If we all use military time and the 24H clock, it's a non-issue, of >> course. > >It cuts the problem in half. We still have to determine which date midnight is. Your ?least surprise? would indicate that the closest future midnight has tomorrow?s date. But if you asked for a ride to pick you up at midnight tomorrow, there could very likely be a surprise. There's that. Again, I suggest that PLS means that "midnight on Friday" would mean the midnight at the *end* of Friday, but I suppose someone could get it wrong. If I had any suspicion that I was dealing with such a one, I'd specify 23:59. NB it's not *my* least surprise, it's an interface design concept, apparently also known as POLA (Principle Of Least Astonishment), which is new to me. :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment -- You should see a bully trying to kick down a pebblecastle with his bare feet. - Cat, in urs. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Mar 24 15:07:19 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 15:07:19 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: <66A19F86-70AD-4789-A137-F56F003E8614@brazee.net> References: <66be615f-de25-8bc2-a4e6-bb7937d62893@matija.com> <3tdk2h154i0kr0f7huer312fbcouqnq1ki@4ax.com> <66A19F86-70AD-4789-A137-F56F003E8614@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:08:43 -0600, Howard Brazee wrote: > > >> On Mar 22, 2022, at 12:54 PM, Fred wrote: >> >> AFAIK, no standards body has chosen to work in this area, to reduce >> confusion, but merely because I don't know about it doesn't mean it hasn't >> been done. But if it has been standardized, too many people ignore the >> standard! > >An issue is when a ?regular? person tells his smart phone to wake him up on midnight of the 20th of the month. That person and the software need to agree on whether that midnight is at the start or the end of the 20th. I'll try it and see what it does. -- You should see a bully trying to kick down a pebblecastle with his bare feet. - Cat, in urs. From domelouann at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 15:15:22 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 10:15:22 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Alternative storyline: Baron Mark Message-ID: What it says on the label. What if Mark decided to beat Jackson's Whole at its own game? I see two points of departure for this. It could have been the plan Mark pursued instead of the commando raid that begins "Mirror Dance." Or if the middle section of MD hadn't given him as much of a desire to be a Vorkosigan as in the original book, he could have taken over House Ryoval at the end while he had a bird in the hand. Hand in the hand, rather. (Evil grin.) I suspect he would have been shockingly good at it. Although he is way happier and saner as Lord Mark. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Mar 24 15:44:46 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 15:44:46 +0000 Subject: [LMB] News In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 16:18:53 +0000, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >I just read that the crash of the China Eastern Airlines Boing 737-800 is being called a human-induced event. That covers a multitude of sins, doesn't it? -- Why should I allow that same God to tell me how to raise my kids, who had to drown His own? - Robert G. Ingersoll From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Mar 24 15:50:17 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 15:50:17 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 27 - Part 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6n4p3hlggviafb6np7q2irfi2vmk30dngq@4ax.com> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 12:55:20 -0400, Lois Aleta Fundis wrote: >Yes, Simon is having fun.. As the Beatles told us many years ago, "Fun is >the one thing that money can't buy." Or, as Simon hss also discovered, >power, It's an extremely naive notion, though: money can buy a whole shit-ton of fun (depending on your choice of fun). In the scope of the song, it's true, but it's very contextual. >That's from the song "She's Leaving Home." And like the "she" of the song, >Simon now has to leave his "home" --ImpSec -- to move on to a new >home where, and people with whom, he can now have fun. > > >On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 12:11 PM Gwynne Powell >wrote: > >> >> >> On the face of it, this section is nuts-and-bolts, it's all just >> details about minor stuff being sorted out, things finished off, >> nothing new happens. There is a - well, not let-down, but >> a sense of exhaustion in the reader, after all the tension. Now >> we're in a patch of calm. >> >> But there's a lot happening, all the same. >> >> Cordelia gives Simon a map and a notebook - a very practical >> response to the problem, and it really does help him. Simon >> gets his own place, farewells ImpSec, and revels in his romance >> with Alys. He's planning a holiday, too. Simon is having fun. For >> Simon, life is in many ways better now than it has been for a >> long time. Yes, as Harra said, you go on, and find your life again. >> >> Miles finishes the report, in painstaking detail. No chance of >> wriggling out of it, Haroche. He lets the doctors check out his >> head, and makes the appointment to get it fixed. He moves to >> new rooms, for a grown-up, instead of his childhood bedroom. >> He sends a message to Elli. >> >> Miles and Simon were both betrayed by their own brains, they >> both lost their careers, and their identity (Simon is famous for >> his memory, now it's hazy. Miles lost Naismith.) They both >> suffered, and they've both come through and started making >> positive steps towards their futures. As Harra said, you just go on. >> -- >> Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to loisaletafundis at gmail.com >> Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >> http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold >> > > >-- >Lois Aleta Fundis >loisaletafundis at gmail.com > >[image: image.png] -- I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones - John Cage From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Mar 24 15:53:18 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 15:53:18 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: <77ea5909-7703-ce69-eff3-da52615c4ae6@allums.email> References: <77ea5909-7703-ce69-eff3-da52615c4ae6@allums.email> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 14:05:43 -0500, Mark Allums wrote: >On 3/21/2022 12:21 PM, Marc Wilson wrote: >> >> Western Digital have 18TB models on the market, for prices north of >> $600. There are 20TB ones from Seagate and WD, but they're all destined >> for data centres and carry data centre pricing. > >They've upped it a notch and now the 20 TB models are available to >consumers for $500 the data centers have 22 TB models. Just FYI. IT does move fast. :) I remember asking a laptop vendor, back when NT4 was state of the art, how he did his pricing (this was in the days when magazine advertising was the main channel) - he said, given publishing lead times, he put the ads in at 10% below cost and hoped for no nasty surprised in the supply chain. -- I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones - John Cage From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Mar 24 15:54:59 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 15:54:59 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <405p3h1kou6riedftqq82ueu6hodvjeh4l@4ax.com> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 14:22:54 +0000, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >Just try to post that you don?t think climate change will make the Earth uninhabitable in 20 years and you will be banned within the hour. Post where? Banned by whom? And - more pertinently - WTF does this have to do with SSD prices? Again, you're playing the victim card, and not even in the right game this time. -- I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones - John Cage From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Mar 24 15:58:16 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 15:58:16 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Tech marches on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <265p3h15dqna3dd6r345e1eteda5eg359r@4ax.com> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 15:19:11 +0000, Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold wrote: >On 22/03/2022 14:22, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >> Just try to post that you don?t think climate change will make the Earth uninhabitable in 20 years and you will be banned within the hour. > >Actually, it's the other way around: > >https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/22/facebook-climate-change-environment-groups-suspended > >https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-denial-spreads-on-facebook-as-scientists-face-restrictions/ > >https://www.reuters.com/business/cop/facebook-climate-change-can-falsehoods-be-reined-2022-02-23/ Also, it's a strawman argument: a scant handful of fringe activists are pushing the 20 years timeline. There are rather more saying that we don't have the luxury of waiting another 20 years and doing nothing, but that's a different debate altogether. -- I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones - John Cage From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Mar 24 16:07:31 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 16:07:31 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: <9A6527FE-E3A4-4B99-9614-15E75A610159@brazee.net> <0qeh3h9dkocd77761ei00pcfllge3qrvdv@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 18:53:56 +0000, "Harvey Fishman" wrote: >The big advantage of Backblaze is that there is no limit on how much you >can back up. Right now I have 9.5 TB there but I have been up to 16 TB. > >The price seems to have gone up. It was $60.00 when I signed up and I >believe it was for two years. I still have several months to go. Still, >I do not believe that there is any other choice for unlimited backup. >Let me know if you find one. Not at that price point, no. But sync.com does unlimited at $15/user/month, as many devices as you like, min 2 users. https://www.sync.com/pricing/ OpenDrive has a personal version for $9.99/month, with unlimited storage and devices. And for that matter, a *free* personal package with 5TB, if that's enough for you. https://www.opendrive.com/pricing -- It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold. - Hunter S Tolkien - Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Mar 24 16:10:42 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 16:10:42 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 11 In-Reply-To: References: <9A6527FE-E3A4-4B99-9614-15E75A610159@brazee.net> <0qeh3h9dkocd77761ei00pcfllge3qrvdv@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 19:57:11 +0000, "Harvey Fishman" wrote: >Get a fiber provider. I use Verizon FIOS, which gives me speeds of >typically 800 Mb/s down and 900 Mb/s up. This costs me $102.75 per month >with all taxes and includes phone service and all equipment (modem and >router). I do not have TV service as I do not have a TV set. I find them >quite reliable, though it can be a pain to get help if there is a >problem. > >The problem with FIOS is that they do not serve all areas of the >country, but I live in the Northeast. Look for fiber providers in your >area; do a Google search for them. They all have similar services and >prices and fiber tends to have symmetrical speeds. I currently have twin FTTP feeds (for resilience) and a router that can manage both, I'm awaiting a new provider in the area who will be outside the BT network and provide gigabit symmetric service, at which point I'll either swap out one of my services or get a router than can bind *three* WANs. :) -- It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold. - Hunter S Tolkien - Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Mar 24 16:12:10 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 16:12:10 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Websites In-Reply-To: <66A19F86-70AD-4789-A137-F56F003E8614@brazee.net> References: <66be615f-de25-8bc2-a4e6-bb7937d62893@matija.com> <3tdk2h154i0kr0f7huer312fbcouqnq1ki@4ax.com> <66A19F86-70AD-4789-A137-F56F003E8614@brazee.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:08:43 -0600, Howard Brazee wrote: > > >> On Mar 22, 2022, at 12:54 PM, Fred wrote: >> >> AFAIK, no standards body has chosen to work in this area, to reduce >> confusion, but merely because I don't know about it doesn't mean it hasn't >> been done. But if it has been standardized, too many people ignore the >> standard! > >An issue is when a ?regular? person tells his smart phone to wake him up on midnight of the 20th of the month. That person and the software need to agree on whether that midnight is at the start or the end of the 20th. I asked Alexa to set an alarm for midnight, and she said "Alarm set for midnight tomorrow". Let's see what actually happens. -- It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold. - Hunter S Tolkien - Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur From kawyle at att.net Thu Mar 24 16:57:16 2022 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 16:57:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Tor gives a shout-out to A Civil Campaign References: <1085260274.1767790.1648141036404.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1085260274.1767790.1648141036404@mail.yahoo.com> Today's Tor newsletter includes a feature on five SFF books featuring best laid plans thwarted -- and one is A Civil Campaign.?Five SFF Stories In Which the Best-Laid Plans Are Thwarted | | | | | | | | | | | Five SFF Stories In Which the Best-Laid Plans Are Thwarted James Davis Nicoll Who among us has not been betrayed by the failure of a simple plan that should have worked? One sets out to coll... | | | Karen A. Wyle From mathews55 at msn.com Thu Mar 24 18:29:58 2022 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 18:29:58 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unhand Lady Vorpatril! In-Reply-To: <0FB8244D-BA74-4D08-9EFD-3C601F79A74B@comcast.net> References: <0FB8244D-BA74-4D08-9EFD-3C601F79A74B@comcast.net> Message-ID: Oh, I love Ivan's book! It was great to see inside him mind for once. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Robert Woodward Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2022 9:48 PM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] Unhand Lady Vorpatril! On Mar 23, 2022, at 8:09 PM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > From: Louann Miller > > I have to admit, after our group reading of "Memory" I carried on. Like > Miles so often does, I got a bit ahead of myself. > > Gwynne: I'm so glad that the discussion is having such positive effects. > I'm wondering about the next book. We could go on in sequence, and > head to Komarr (although we did that a while ago. And it's got Tien in it.) > Or ACC (which is always fun although I hated the dinner party scene for > ages, it was so shattering.) Or jump to a book I've tended to neglect in > my personal rereads, like Ethan of Athos. We always find new and > interesting perspectives in an on-board discussion, and it certainly helped > me with Falling Free. Or Vor Game has been mentioned. Or, as total > self-indulgence, Ivan's book. I'm still mulling, input welcome. There is also the aborted discussion of _The Spirit Ring_. "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From lmb at matija.com Thu Mar 24 18:45:53 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 18:45:53 +0000 Subject: [LMB] What Haroche should have done In-Reply-To: <835276578.1232994.1648075120953@mail.yahoo.com> References: <835276578.1232994.1648075120953.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <835276578.1232994.1648075120953@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 23/03/2022 22:38, H. Torrance Griffin via Lois-Bujold wrote: > I would presume that being a departmental head of ImpSec and on Illiyan's Short List I would be in a position to ask... let us not mince words demand what this kid had going for him that I did not (recall that Haroche barely skimmed Vorkosigan's file even well after the deed) and have the clearance to get an honest answer.? If I found the decision founded on nothing but quasi-avuncular nepotisim a prompt resignation or transfer would be in order... however the brains needed for the crap he pulled off as Naismith up to and including the identity's creation would probably have me thinking in terms of eventual Galactic Affairs Chief or better if he calmed the heck down. > Still, there may be enough ego involved to make a difference between training the future ImpSec head and training one's own boss.? If Miles did not impress me quite enough for option two I would ask the current boss to give me enough warning so I could have him sign off on my resignation before activating my own. We listed a number of options Haroche had. A number of them might be ultimately more lucrative than being head of Impsec which (unless Haroche is corrupt) won't be more than a government salary. And a number of people said that he had his eyes fixed on being head of Impsec, and that blinded him to all the errors he started making. It occurs to me that for whatever reason (power, patriotism, pretty uniform :-) ), being head of Impsec was Haroche's heart's desire. We, the readers, know that the only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart. But Haroche tried. From domelouann at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 21:14:52 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 16:14:52 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Alternate Timeline: Baron Mark of Jackson's Whole. Message-ID: I see two ways this could happen. One, beating the Jacksonians at their own game might have been Mark's original plan rather than the commando raid in "Mirror Dance." Or if he were less attached to the idea of becoming a real Vorkosigan, he could have made a bid to take over House Ryoval, as it were, single-handed. Lord Mark as we know him is certainly happier and saner than Baron Mark would have been. But I can imagine it happening. Louann From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 22:09:46 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 17:09:46 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Alternate Timeline: Baron Mark of Jackson's Whole. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wonder how the Koudelkas would react to Baroness Karen? On Thu, Mar 24, 2022, 4:15 PM Louann Miller wrote: > I see two ways this could happen. One, beating the Jacksonians at their own > game might have been Mark's original plan rather than the commando raid in > "Mirror Dance." Or if he were less attached to the idea of becoming a real > Vorkosigan, he could have made a bid to take over House Ryoval, as it were, > single-handed. > Lord Mark as we know him is certainly happier and saner than Baron Mark > would have been. But I can imagine it happening. > > Louann > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 23:52:14 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 19:52:14 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Unhand Lady Vorpatril! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 11:09 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > F We could go on in sequence, and > head to Komarr (although we did that a while ago. And it's got Tien in it.) > But it also has Miles consciously being anti-Tien. I have to admit, I like books where someone has the abuser checklist (isolate their beloved, gaslight them, force them to become smaller and smaller, etc) and makes the decision to do the opposite of each thing. There's some of that in ACC, but... the dinner scene. And the fallout. I can't. > Or ACC (which is always fun although I hated the dinner party scene for > ages, it was so shattering.) Yeah, that. Or, as total > self-indulgence, Ivan's book. I'm still mulling, input welcome. > -- > Yeah that - again - although on a happier note this time ;) Sylvia From domelouann at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 01:09:52 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 20:09:52 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Alternate Timeline: Baron Mark of Jackson's Whole. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 24, 2022, 5:10 PM Eric Oppen wrote: > I wonder how the Koudelkas would react to Baroness Karen? > She didn't know Mark so well, then. I don't think she'd follow him to the Whole. > From fred.fredex at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 02:01:41 2022 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2022 22:01:41 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Unhand Lady Vorpatril! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Or ACC (which is always fun although I hated the dinner party scene for > ages, it was so shattering.) Yeah, that. yes, but it's so HILARIOUS (along with the pain). On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 7:52 PM Sylvia McIvers wrote: > On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 11:09 PM Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > > F We could go on in sequence, and > > head to Komarr (although we did that a while ago. And it's got Tien in > it.) > > > > But it also has Miles consciously being anti-Tien. I have to admit, I like > books where someone has the abuser checklist (isolate their beloved, > gaslight them, force them to become smaller and smaller, etc) and makes the > decision to do the opposite of each thing. There's some of that in ACC, > but... the dinner scene. And the fallout. I can't. > > > > Or ACC (which is always fun although I hated the dinner party scene for > > ages, it was so shattering.) > > Yeah, that. > > Or, as total > > > self-indulgence, Ivan's book. I'm still mulling, input welcome. > > -- > > > > Yeah that - again - although on a happier note this time ;) > > Sylvia > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Mar 25 03:43:31 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 03:43:31 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 28 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Another two-parter, it's long, and the action changes. Miles decides to be formal and official about returning the Auditor's chain to Gregor, along with his report. So he dusts off his House uniform (he's Vor, he likes uniforms of any kind) and puts all his medals on it - probably for the last time. He wants a favour from Gregor. This is actually really touching: he's finished his military career, for the first time in his life he has no goal, no plans, nothing to aim towards. He'll never be military again. But still... he just wants that Captaincy. His final military goal is so much smaller and more personal than anything else in his career. And, with all that he's done as Naismith and now as Vorkosigan, it's really heart-wrenching that he still thinks he has to beg for this. He doesn't have the same perspective on his achievements as the rest of the world would have, if they only knew. (This comes back to 'You hit him harder than you realise.' Miles doesn't really see what an impact he has on people and events.) Gregor's in his House uniform too. (Ahhhh Black and silver - the first Vorbarra really knew what he was doing.) I love their first meeting: "Good morning, my Lord Auditor." "Good morning, Sire... There you go. All done." The formality didn't last long. Gregor looks at the report then sends it 'next door'. Miles is working up to his big request, but Gregor is busy reading the report, then he wants to talk about it. Miles was the right man in the right place to do the job - and it's not likely that anyone else could have done the same. Does he want to run ImpSec? He will if Gregor orders it, but it's not something Miles wants... he's not motivated by that kind of power. He could do the job, but he wouldn't enjoy it (and it's interesting that for Miles, enjoyment is an important part of the job. Personal gratification.) No, Miles doesn't want that job. Gregor offers it as.... a polite gesture? A test? Then Gregor chats idly for a while. Tea? Coffee? Cream cakes? No, Miles is having his head put back together after his, so he can't eat anything. He'll miss Martin, but not all that much. Miles tries again to ask for his precious promotion, but four Auditors march in. Momentary panic before his good sense takes over. They're all successful, respected, high achievers in their chosen fields, totally loyal and with absolute integrity. They approve of Miles's report; he was well trained by Simon. Miles did a very good job all round; Haroche is going to plead guilty. (To get a plea deal; wonder what the final charges are? Can't be treason, or it'd be automatic death.) The other auditors don't think they'd have solved the crime; the key was bringing Canaba into the investigation, and none of them knew about him. There are only five active Auditors; Vorparadijs is too old, and Valentine too frail. They really do need a new recruit. So.. does Miles want to be an Auditor? He's too young, he's a mutie, he's... but... he has knowledge and experience beyond the norm. And he's very very good at what he does. Miles makes sure that they know why he was put out of ImpSec. This is a hard thing to say, for him, but he's being totally honest - a big difference to Miles at the beginning of the book. And this is the heart of it all: if he was prepared to lie to Illyan to keep Naismith, why didn't he take Haroche's offer? Then he'd have what he wanted. But... he wouldn't have liked that person. Miles has learned to value himself, and he wants to be able to respect himself. ... and, being Miles he swings back to his original goal for this meeting. He wants that Captaincy. He's just been offered one of the highest possible jobs in the whole Empire, but... captaincy. Gregor teases him a bit - after all Naismith was an admiral, so he did have rank. But Miles keeps, politely, pushing. "Persistent," murmured Vorhovis, "Isn't he?" "Relentlessly," Gregor agreed. Yes, relentless persistence, one of Miles's strongest characteristics. It's what kept pushing him to solve the crime at ImpSec. It was Vorkosigan's lifesaving feature; he just won't give up. It drove Haroche crazy, too. He just kept on coming back. Miles gets his captaincy. Not the way he dreamed it, but it still counts. (And he's equal to Ivan.) The other Auditors don't just accept Gregor's decision to give Miles the job; they're enthusiastic about it. They've seen the records of his - or Naismith's - career. They've seen his recent success at catching Haroche. They've seen how far he'll go, and what line he won't cross. And they really want him to join them. Naismith wouldn't have been suitable for this, but Lord Vorkosigan - with more amaturity and self-awareness - is perfect. So, he's an Auditor. Finally, a chain of command he's comfortable about. And then the surgery. He gets to watch it on a monitor (interesting to see them prodding around in your brain. I was awake for my knee replacements, but they wouldn't let me see anything.) Then two days later they give it a test run. Yes, it makes the seizure happen. But it will now happen when he chooses, and won't be as bad. (This is basically Miles's whole life - you can't change the problem, but you can control it.) The doctor deals with Miles's paranoia about it all. And doesn't have great hopes for Miles being any more careful in future - he's got to know his patient well. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Fri Mar 25 04:11:18 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 04:11:18 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 28 (Part 1) - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It makes no difference to anyone, but Miles wants that promotion. He does acknowledge - to himself - that he doesn't want history to see him as a Lieutenant. Miles thinks about the future, but then he has to, he's very well aware of his family, and his place in the long line of Counts Vorkosigan. (Poor Sacha, following Piotr, Aral and then Miles in the record books. Clever of him to choose a totally different path.) And that completes, and finalises, his military career. I love him in his uniform and medals. Hit them right between the eyes, he played them at their own game and won. I think Gregor was pretty sure that Miles wouldn't take the ImpSec job. If he had, would Gregor have offered him the Auditorship and let him choose? Gregor should have been given more credit for choosing Miles for the investigation - it was a bit of a wild card, all things considered. Did Gregor already have the idea of giving Miles the Auditorship? Gregor wanted Miles around him - that was one reason for the ImpSec job. Cordelia and Aral are on Sergyar, and Gregor wants some family nearby. Someone he can trust, someone he doesn't have to pretend with. When did he start thinking of other ways to use Miles, after Miles left ImpSec? Another point: He probably didn't fancy the idea of Miles wandering around the capital, or the planet, aimlessly. Miles needs direction. And there's always that temptation to head back to the Dendarii. Making him an Auditor means he stays around, he's available for ANYTHING when needed, (which is really useful, there's often some job that needs high security, it's not really military or wants special training, And it needs someone totally trustworthy and close to Gregor. An Auditorial job is whatever he says it is.) And he's able to do District work as well. And politics. But he's under control. I love it that, after Gregor offers the Auditorship, an amazing offer, Miles still swings back to wanting the Captaincy. Yes, relentlessly persistent, which is a useful quality for an Auditor. (And it's always hilarious watching outsiders as they realise just HOW ruthlessly unstoppable Miles can be.) The auditors are an interesting group. There's a sort of serenity about them, a lot of quiet confidence. And a good mixture of talent. It's an incredible job - and it could have been written for Miles. A hundred years or so after the end of the saga some author will start writing a biography of Miles. Maybe as part of a set, with Piotr and Aral - there's a whole career for some keen writer, in that lot. But imagine trying to explain Miles to a future audience. And Miles gets his head fixed. Well, no, not fixed, but he now has a way to control the seizures. It's like all his other physical challenges; can't be fixed, but can be dealt with. From mathews55 at msn.com Fri Mar 25 14:18:13 2022 From: mathews55 at msn.com (Pat Mathews) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 14:18:13 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 28 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One thing Lois is keenly aware of is limits. And pushing limits. Miles has finally realized just where his limits are and where they are not. He's not Superman - nor yet (his private image, as note the one Shakespearean play he has memorized) Super-Mutie - nor even a bold privateer. He's in service to something and someone, and on a firmer ethical footing than ever before. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2022 9:43 PM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 28 Another two-parter, it's long, and the action changes. Miles decides to be formal and official about returning the Auditor's chain to Gregor, along with his report. So he dusts off his House uniform (he's Vor, he likes uniforms of any kind) and puts all his medals on it - probably for the last time. He wants a favour from Gregor. This is actually really touching: he's finished his military career, for the first time in his life he has no goal, no plans, nothing to aim towards. He'll never be military again. But still... he just wants that Captaincy. His final military goal is so much smaller and more personal than anything else in his career. And, with all that he's done as Naismith and now as Vorkosigan, it's really heart-wrenching that he still thinks he has to beg for this. He doesn't have the same perspective on his achievements as the rest of the world would have, if they only knew. (This comes back to 'You hit him harder than you realise.' Miles doesn't really see what an impact he has on people and events.) Gregor's in his House uniform too. (Ahhhh Black and silver - the first Vorbarra really knew what he was doing.) I love their first meeting: "Good morning, my Lord Auditor." "Good morning, Sire... There you go. All done." The formality didn't last long. Gregor looks at the report then sends it 'next door'. Miles is working up to his big request, but Gregor is busy reading the report, then he wants to talk about it. Miles was the right man in the right place to do the job - and it's not likely that anyone else could have done the same. Does he want to run ImpSec? He will if Gregor orders it, but it's not something Miles wants... he's not motivated by that kind of power. He could do the job, but he wouldn't enjoy it (and it's interesting that for Miles, enjoyment is an important part of the job. Personal gratification.) No, Miles doesn't want that job. Gregor offers it as.... a polite gesture? A test? Then Gregor chats idly for a while. Tea? Coffee? Cream cakes? No, Miles is having his head put back together after his, so he can't eat anything. He'll miss Martin, but not all that much. Miles tries again to ask for his precious promotion, but four Auditors march in. Momentary panic before his good sense takes over. They're all successful, respected, high achievers in their chosen fields, totally loyal and with absolute integrity. They approve of Miles's report; he was well trained by Simon. Miles did a very good job all round; Haroche is going to plead guilty. (To get a plea deal; wonder what the final charges are? Can't be treason, or it'd be automatic death.) The other auditors don't think they'd have solved the crime; the key was bringing Canaba into the investigation, and none of them knew about him. There are only five active Auditors; Vorparadijs is too old, and Valentine too frail. They really do need a new recruit. So.. does Miles want to be an Auditor? He's too young, he's a mutie, he's... but... he has knowledge and experience beyond the norm. And he's very very good at what he does. Miles makes sure that they know why he was put out of ImpSec. This is a hard thing to say, for him, but he's being totally honest - a big difference to Miles at the beginning of the book. And this is the heart of it all: if he was prepared to lie to Illyan to keep Naismith, why didn't he take Haroche's offer? Then he'd have what he wanted. But... he wouldn't have liked that person. Miles has learned to value himself, and he wants to be able to respect himself. ... and, being Miles he swings back to his original goal for this meeting. He wants that Captaincy. He's just been offered one of the highest possible jobs in the whole Empire, but... captaincy. Gregor teases him a bit - after all Naismith was an admiral, so he did have rank. But Miles keeps, politely, pushing. "Persistent," murmured Vorhovis, "Isn't he?" "Relentlessly," Gregor agreed. Yes, relentless persistence, one of Miles's strongest characteristics. It's what kept pushing him to solve the crime at ImpSec. It was Vorkosigan's lifesaving feature; he just won't give up. It drove Haroche crazy, too. He just kept on coming back. Miles gets his captaincy. Not the way he dreamed it, but it still counts. (And he's equal to Ivan.) The other Auditors don't just accept Gregor's decision to give Miles the job; they're enthusiastic about it. They've seen the records of his - or Naismith's - career. They've seen his recent success at catching Haroche. They've seen how far he'll go, and what line he won't cross. And they really want him to join them. Naismith wouldn't have been suitable for this, but Lord Vorkosigan - with more amaturity and self-awareness - is perfect. So, he's an Auditor. Finally, a chain of command he's comfortable about. And then the surgery. He gets to watch it on a monitor (interesting to see them prodding around in your brain. I was awake for my knee replacements, but they wouldn't let me see anything.) Then two days later they give it a test run. Yes, it makes the seizure happen. But it will now happen when he chooses, and won't be as bad. (This is basically Miles's whole life - you can't change the problem, but you can control it.) The doctor deals with Miles's paranoia about it all. And doesn't have great hopes for Miles being any more careful in future - he's got to know his patient well. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to mathews55 at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 17:36:01 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 13:36:01 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Unhand Lady Vorpatril! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 10:02 PM Fred wrote: > > Or ACC (which is always fun although I hated the dinner party scene for > > ages, it was so shattering.) > > Yeah, that. > > yes, but it's so HILARIOUS (along with the pain). > No. It really wasn't funny. At all. It just hurt. And now you know that there are people who experience things differently than you. From tzbarasc at lasierra.edu Fri Mar 25 18:09:20 2022 From: tzbarasc at lasierra.edu (Tony Zbaraschuk) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 13:09:20 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unhand Lady Vorpatril! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 12:36 PM Sylvia McIvers wrote: > On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 10:02 PM Fred wrote: > > > > Or ACC (which is always fun although I hated the dinner party scene for > > > ages, it was so shattering.) > > > > Yeah, that. > > > > yes, but it's so HILARIOUS (along with the pain). > > > > > No. It really wasn't funny. At all. It just hurt. > And now you know that there are people who experience things differently > than you. > The first time I read it, it was hysterically funny. I've never been able to read it straight through since; it's just too painful. (I had a similar reaction to parts of tWA, though it took longer for that to sink in.) Tony Z -- Tony Zbaraschuk Bookworm, talker, learner Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" From matt.msg at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 20:15:45 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2022 16:15:45 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Alternate Timeline: Baron Mark of Jackson's Whole. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And Mark would have to descend into corruption and evil - become a "maneater", in his terms. Because there's no way he could survive as leader of a faction on Jackson's Whole. Barrayar is positively wholesome in comparison. Matt "the path less taken is so for a reason" G. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Mar 26 12:36:16 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 12:36:16 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unhand Lady Vorpatril! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Sylvia McIvers On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 10:02 PM Fred wrote: > > Or ACC (which is always fun although I hated the dinner party scene for > > ages, it was so shattering.) > Yeah, that. > yes, but it's so HILARIOUS (along with the pain). No. It really wasn't funny. At all. It just hurt. And now you know that there are people who experience things differently than you. Gwynne: The dinner party; the first time I read it, it really hurt so much. I didn't revisit the book for a long time because of it. I can read and enjoy the book now, but I don't find the dinner party funny. It's shattering, but it's necessary. A smaller version of Miles leaving ImpSec - and that turned out well too. There's a lesson we keep seeing; every horrible, painful event - if you work through it and keep going - leads to something good. Kicked out of ImpSec... become an Auditor. Terrible courtship errors.... wonderful marriage. Aral dies.... Cordelia and Simon have a wonderful bounty of children And I have to add... Kareen dies.... Gregor is raised by Cordelia and Aral, who help him to become a strong and careful leader, and a good man. I wonder if things would have turned out so well if Kareen had lived? From lbujold at myinfmail.com Sat Mar 26 15:17:22 2022 From: lbujold at myinfmail.com (Lois Bujold) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:17:22 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Unhand Lady Vorpatril! Message-ID: [LMB] Unhand Lady Vorpatril! Gwynne Powell gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Mar 26 12:36:16 GMT 2022 GP mistypes: Aral dies.... Cordelia and Simon have a wonderful bounty of children LMB:? Now, there's an interesting typo/braino for some ficcer to run with... Given the tech, an intimate relationship is not even required, just some genetic samples. Ta, L. From saffronrose at me.com Sat Mar 26 20:03:26 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 13:03:26 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: a sign my son saw online Message-ID: <06823124-8A84-4E68-B7D1-4CA0FF783847@me.com> As with the folk group the Mother Folkers, one must carefully pronounce this furniture shop?s name The Shack of Sit Five tines fast anyone? A. Marina Fournier saffronrose at me.com Je persisterai quand m?me, car j?ais surv?cu d??tre n?e Valley of Heart?s Delight. CA Sent from iFionnghuala From cjbotteron at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 20:20:27 2022 From: cjbotteron at gmail.com (Carol Botteron) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 16:20:27 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Bookmark Alignment Chart Message-ID: Lawful evil, chaotic good, etc.: https://laughingsquid.com/bookmark-alignment-chart/ From margdean56 at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 20:53:23 2022 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 14:53:23 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Bookmark Alignment Chart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 2:21 PM Carol Botteron wrote: > Lawful evil, chaotic good, etc.: > https://laughingsquid.com/bookmark-alignment-chart/ > > I've seen this before, but am never sure where to put myself, since I usually use the separators from boxes of teabags (which I keep a supply of for the purpose). --Margaret Dean From fred.fredex at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 23:59:43 2022 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 19:59:43 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Bookmark Alignment Chart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: years ago when we subscribed to paper magazines (remember them?), that all came with multiple advertising cards stuck inside, I used to take those cards, crease and tear in half parallel to the short axis, then crease and tear in half the havles, so I ended up with a stack of roughly 1" by 4" strips. kept them bound together in stacks with rubberbands, and the strips made great bookmarks. there may still be a few of 'em around here, somewhere, but I read a lot less in paper these days. On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 4:53 PM Margaret Dean wrote: > On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 2:21 PM Carol Botteron > wrote: > > > Lawful evil, chaotic good, etc.: > > https://laughingsquid.com/bookmark-alignment-chart/ > > > > > I've seen this before, but am never sure where to put myself, since I > usually use the separators from boxes of teabags (which I keep a supply of > for the purpose). > > > --Margaret Dean > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From jelbelser at comcast.net Sun Mar 27 00:12:37 2022 From: jelbelser at comcast.net (Jelbelser) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 19:12:37 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Bookmark Alignment Chart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For many years now I have been collecting bookmarks. They must be of good card-stock to be worthy of joining my collection. My daughter sometimes gifts me with very nice ones she gets as souvenirs of her travels or to support fannish artists. Janet in TN From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Mar 27 04:04:43 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 03:04:43 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 28 - Part 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's an engagement party! But since it's Imperial, it's all very complicated. (And the betrothal is as binding as a wedding, so this is really big bikkies. In some traditional societies, including Greece, after the engagement the couple wouldn't marry until the bride was pregnant, thus proving their fertility. Considering the conditions for the early settlers I could see that custom being revived. And among the High Vor the financial negotiations could go on for some time, so again I could see them doing the betrothal and letting the young couple get busy, while the parents sorted out the details.) Gregor has prodded/bulldozed/insisted to get the betrothal as soon as possible - he's not taking any chances. (To be fair, I think Laisa is as eager; she's truly in love with Gregor the man, as well as the Emperor. Being dazzled by the rank didn't last long, she spent enough time with Alys to know what goes on behind the scenes.) Unfortunately they don't have weather control: Vorbarr Sultana is hit by the worst blizzard in forty years; apart from all the other massive disruption it strands Aral in orbit - even the military shuttleport is struggling to cope. (Note to self: Don't plan a planetary invasion during a snowstorm.) Some buildings are two storeys deep in snow. Aral delays attempting to arrive until the next morning; he'll go straight to the Residence. No family chats that night. Miles wanted to celebrate his new and improved brain by flying himself in his lightflyer, but plans changed as the storm raged on, and they decided on groundcars (let's face it, that armoured behemoth of theirs could power through just about anything.) Naturally that's the morning that Zap decides to have kittens in Miles's wardrobe (that's a sign of affection, from cats.) Miles rescues his best clothes: Cordelia, showing a fine appreciation of priorities, gets to know the kittens. Zap doesn't scratch her - proving yet again that it's a pretty smart cat. (I still think that cat's a Cetagandan spy.) They set off in three groundcars. (Who's in the cars? Miles, Cordelia, and... lots of armsmen? With snow shovels?) Plenty of attendees have interesting stories about the challenges of getting there; there's some very bedraggled armsmen who had to dig the groundcars out of attacking snow. Fortunately Laisa's Komarran contingent were housed in the Residence; this is not good advertising for the fun of living outside domes. Alys is either serene or catatonic. Miles and Cordelia are checked off her list, and then Aral arrives and they're good to go. I love the way Aral hugs Cordelia, intensely and genuinely. He's obviously somehow completed by being reunited with her. No time for conversation; Alys rounds them up and gets the ceremony started - only an hour late, which is pretty good under the circumstances. This is more than a family event; all the high and mighty, the important and self-important, of Vor society are there. The two families face off; there's various ceremonial gifts, and (oh how I wish we had the full version) admonishments to the bride. (Proof yet again that Laisa really loves Gregor; that on its own is enough to send most women screaming to the hills.) There's some modernisation; no knife to kill any sub-standard babies, no insistence of body-birth. It all goes well, and then they party. Doubly so because they had to fight so hard to arrive safely, and most of them aren't looking forward to getting through the snow to get home. Miles runs into Ivan, "Hello, Lord Auditor Coz," ... a nice blend of respect and family. Miles is taking his oath in a week, but there's rumours already. Ohhh I'm sure there's rumours. Especially because, as usual, Miles's efforts to solve the recent crime at ImpSec are as secret as all his other achievements. For someone who craves public attention, he has a talent for staying secret. Ivan has crossed a huge line, and proposed to a woman! He asked Delia to marry him. Bad choice - why didn't he realise when he saw Duv and Delia together in ImpSec? So he proposed to Martya, on the same day. She wasn't as gentle as Delia. Alys wasn't interested - another massive change - she's too busy with Simon. (They're so sweet together, it's young love for both of them.) Miles is trying to find homes for the kittens. (They should sell them; if people will buy bits of the entry tiles when they renovate, surely they'd by Vorkosigan Cats.) Ivan doesn't want a kitten. The Koudelkas and Duv are proudly on display, killing any nasty rumours. Aral congratulates Miles on his promotion: Miles asks which one. To him, they're both important. "If you can't do what you want to, do what you can." ... good words to live by. Aral notes that Miles has grown up (at last) and that he still has his forward momentum. Miles still feels that internal serenity, that completion. He no longer has a rage to achieve, to prove, to show them all. But, being Miles, he did the research - he's the youngest Auditor since the ToI. (And they probably don't have reliable records before that.) Aral was never an Auditor. Piotr wasn't ever an Auditor. No Vorkosigan has ever been and Auditor. Miles has found a way to exceed, or at least equal, the rest of them. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Mar 27 04:07:32 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 03:07:32 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Unhand Lady Vorpatril! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Lois Bujold [LMB] Unhand Lady Vorpatril! Gwynne Powell gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Mar 26 12:36:16 GMT 2022 GP mistypes: Aral dies.... Cordelia and Simon have a wonderful bounty of children LMB:? Now, there's an interesting typo/braino for some ficcer to run with... Given the tech, an intimate relationship is not even required, just some genetic samples. Ta, L. Gwynne: Oliver!!!! Oliver!!! I'm sure I told my fingers to type Oliver! Damn keyboard. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Mar 27 04:20:24 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 03:20:24 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 28 - Part 2 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So, they're safely betrothed, despite a last-minute attack by the weather. An empire heaves a sigh of relief. (Although I'm sure that some of the reactions on Komarr are a bit different.) Zap is increasing the Vorkosigan biological empire. Miles automatically takes responsibility - this was, after all, a stray encouraged by the gate guards. But Miles is already finding homes for the kittens (I wonder if he'll give one or two to Gregor and Laisa?) And Miles has found a way to achieve what he's always wanted: he'll on the same level as Piotr and Aral, in the eyes of history. He stopped trying to play their game and stepped aside into a totally different arena (something his son will do a generation later, without all the angst first.) I love the moment when Cordelia greets Aral. It's more than just a polite social moment, there's a real sense that Aral feels whole again, now that they're together. And I still wish we'd heard the whole list of the Admonishments. From rgmolpus at flash.net Sun Mar 27 04:38:40 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 03:38:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Unhand Lady Vorpatril! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1404357881.515481.1648352320553@mail.yahoo.com> Doesn't matter. Herself has spoken, thunder from the heavens indicating the will of the Gods. (I don't do births... Off the hook) Get writing! On Saturday, March 26, 2022, 10:07:49 PM CDT, Gwynne Powell wrote: From: Lois Bujold [LMB] Unhand Lady Vorpatril! Gwynne Powell gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sat Mar 26 12:36:16 GMT 2022 GP mistypes: Aral dies.... Cordelia and Simon have a wonderful bounty of children LMB:? Now, there's an interesting typo/braino for some ficcer to run with... Given the tech, an intimate relationship is not even required, just some genetic samples. Ta, L. Gwynne: Oliver!!!! Oliver!!! I'm sure I told my fingers to type Oliver! Damn keyboard. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Mar 27 04:51:08 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 03:51:08 +0000 Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's a lot of talk about traditions on Barrayar, and how they do things because that's how it was done in the past. But... the Barrayar we see isn't all that old. They don't have a lot of past. When Ezar came to the throne he had a pretty shaky claim - I wonder if at least some of their use of traditions was a way to strengthen his rule. And later, with a child emperor - another pretty shaky time - Alys took over the social side of things, and a lot of the politics too, and again she used 'it's traditional' as way to keep things calm, and under control. So.. the times (from the generally accepted timeline by John W Braue) Late 27th century - Dorca Vorbarra accedes to (or seizes) the Barrayaran throne. Unification of Barrayar. Birth of Yuri and Xav Vorbarra. 2693 - Piotr Vorkosigan born. c. 2703 - New wormhole connection to Barrayar via Komarr discovered. Time of Isolation ends. 2713 - 2733 - First Cetagandan War. Cetagandan invasion and occupation of Barrayar. 2727 - Aral Vorkosigan born. c. 2735 - Death of Dorca Vorbarra; accession of his son, "Mad" Yuri. 2739 - 2741 - Mad Yuri's Civil War. At its end, Yuri is killed and Ezar assumes the throne. 2768 - Barrayaran conquest of Komarr. 2773 -. Death of Ezar and accession of Gregor Vorbarra. Aral Vorkosigan named Regent. Vordarian's Pretendership. Birth of Ivan Vorpatril and Miles Vorkosigan. c 2788 - Aral Vorkosigan steps down from the Regency, becomes Prime Minister. 2802 - Memory. So what this means is that at the time of Memory, it's just one century since the wormhole was discovered, and the Empire in the form that we see it was newly (and fairly brutally) put together about a decade before that. The six centuries of the Time of Isolation were a long slow development of the Empire; the numbers of Districts varied, sometimes there were two or even more 'Emperors' as different claimants rose and fell. And often the power of the Emperor was closer to a figurehead; the Counts were basically independent warlords. Dorca took power (slightly shaky claim there, too) and brought the Counts under his control. He took their armies away, he set the number of Districts (Sixty is a very convenient number - some families rose or fell during the consolidation. Vorhartungs had a castle in Vorbarr Sultana, but it's now owned by the Emperor, and there's apparently no more Vorhartungs. I don't think they'd be the only ones who lost badly in the shuffle.) After only ten years the wormhole opened, and ten years later the Cetagandans invaded. Twenty years - that's all Dorca had to get his Empire settled and all those 'traditions' in place. Then thirty years of bitter resistance. In some ways that bolstered Dorca's power within Barrayar; the people needed to have someone to trust. Dorca died just after the invasion ended. Yuri was emperor for only four years before the massacre, and two after that. Thirty-two years of Ezar's rule, during which the empire drifted into fascism until Ezar consolidated his power again, brutally (goodbye, Serg.) Ezar's death and then Vordarian's Big Mistake. Fifteen years of Aral's regency. Fourteen years of Gregor's adult rule. Roughly a century of the Empire As We Know It. And a lot of that time was spent in invasion or civil wars. They follow a lot of old traditions from the Bloody Centuries, but the political organisation is far newer than it seems. Barrayar is actually a pretty new invention. From fishman at panix.com Sun Mar 27 05:07:57 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 04:07:57 +0000 Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How old is Australia? The U.S. is approaching all of 250 years old. Canada dates from either The British North America Act of 1867 or The Statute of Westminster of 1931. Few of us live in really old societies. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "Gwynne Powell" To: "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 3/26/2022 11:51:08 PM Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? > > >There's a lot of talk about traditions on Barrayar, and how they do things >because that's how it was done in the past. > >But... the Barrayar we see isn't all that old. They don't have a lot of past. >When Ezar came to the throne he had a pretty shaky claim - I wonder if >at least some of their use of traditions was a way to strengthen his rule. >And later, with a child emperor - another pretty shaky time - Alys took >over the social side of things, and a lot of the politics too, and again she >used 'it's traditional' as way to keep things calm, and under control. > >So.. the times (from the generally accepted timeline by John W Braue) > >Late 27th century - Dorca Vorbarra accedes to (or seizes) the Barrayaran throne. Unification of Barrayar. Birth of Yuri and Xav Vorbarra. > >2693 - Piotr Vorkosigan born. > >c. 2703 - New wormhole connection to Barrayar via Komarr discovered. Time of Isolation ends. > >2713 - 2733 - First Cetagandan War. Cetagandan invasion and occupation of Barrayar. > >2727 - Aral Vorkosigan born. > >c. 2735 - Death of Dorca Vorbarra; accession of his son, "Mad" Yuri. > >2739 - 2741 - Mad Yuri's Civil War. At its end, Yuri is killed and Ezar assumes the throne. > >2768 - Barrayaran conquest of Komarr. > >2773 -. Death of Ezar and accession of Gregor Vorbarra. Aral Vorkosigan named Regent. Vordarian's Pretendership. Birth of Ivan Vorpatril and Miles Vorkosigan. > >c 2788 - Aral Vorkosigan steps down from the Regency, becomes Prime Minister. > >2802 - Memory. > >So what this means is that at the time of Memory, it's just one century since the >wormhole was discovered, and the Empire in the form that we see it was newly >(and fairly brutally) put together about a decade before that. > >The six centuries of the Time of Isolation were a long slow development of >the Empire; the numbers of Districts varied, sometimes there were two or >even more 'Emperors' as different claimants rose and fell. And often the power >of the Emperor was closer to a figurehead; the Counts were basically >independent warlords. > >Dorca took power (slightly shaky claim there, too) and brought the Counts >under his control. He took their armies away, he set the number of Districts >(Sixty is a very convenient number - some families rose or fell during the >consolidation. Vorhartungs had a castle in Vorbarr Sultana, but it's now >owned by the Emperor, and there's apparently no more Vorhartungs. I don't >think they'd be the only ones who lost badly in the shuffle.) > >After only ten years the wormhole opened, and ten years later the >Cetagandans invaded. Twenty years - that's all Dorca had to get his >Empire settled and all those 'traditions' in place. > >Then thirty years of bitter resistance. In some ways that bolstered >Dorca's power within Barrayar; the people needed to have someone >to trust. > >Dorca died just after the invasion ended. Yuri was emperor for only four >years before the massacre, and two after that. > >Thirty-two years of Ezar's rule, during which the empire drifted >into fascism until Ezar consolidated his power again, brutally >(goodbye, Serg.) Ezar's death and then Vordarian's Big Mistake. > >Fifteen years of Aral's regency. > >Fourteen years of Gregor's adult rule. > >Roughly a century of the Empire As We Know It. And a lot of that time >was spent in invasion or civil wars. They follow a lot of old traditions >from the Bloody Centuries, but the political organisation is far newer >than it seems. > >Barrayar is actually a pretty new invention. > From wawenri at msn.com Sun Mar 27 15:02:26 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 14:02:26 +0000 Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also, we need to remember that different language groups had/have different customs that needed to be included. Wasn?t the inspection from the Greeks? William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Gwynne Powell Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2022 9:51:08 PM To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? There's a lot of talk about traditions on Barrayar, and how they do things because that's how it was done in the past. But... the Barrayar we see isn't all that old. They don't have a lot of past. When Ezar came to the throne he had a pretty shaky claim - I wonder if at least some of their use of traditions was a way to strengthen his rule. And later, with a child emperor - another pretty shaky time - Alys took over the social side of things, and a lot of the politics too, and again she used 'it's traditional' as way to keep things calm, and under control. So.. the times (from the generally accepted timeline by John W Braue) Late 27th century - Dorca Vorbarra accedes to (or seizes) the Barrayaran throne. Unification of Barrayar. Birth of Yuri and Xav Vorbarra. 2693 - Piotr Vorkosigan born. c. 2703 - New wormhole connection to Barrayar via Komarr discovered. Time of Isolation ends. 2713 - 2733 - First Cetagandan War. Cetagandan invasion and occupation of Barrayar. 2727 - Aral Vorkosigan born. c. 2735 - Death of Dorca Vorbarra; accession of his son, "Mad" Yuri. 2739 - 2741 - Mad Yuri's Civil War. At its end, Yuri is killed and Ezar assumes the throne. 2768 - Barrayaran conquest of Komarr. 2773 -. Death of Ezar and accession of Gregor Vorbarra. Aral Vorkosigan named Regent. Vordarian's Pretendership. Birth of Ivan Vorpatril and Miles Vorkosigan. c 2788 - Aral Vorkosigan steps down from the Regency, becomes Prime Minister. 2802 - Memory. So what this means is that at the time of Memory, it's just one century since the wormhole was discovered, and the Empire in the form that we see it was newly (and fairly brutally) put together about a decade before that. The six centuries of the Time of Isolation were a long slow development of the Empire; the numbers of Districts varied, sometimes there were two or even more 'Emperors' as different claimants rose and fell. And often the power of the Emperor was closer to a figurehead; the Counts were basically independent warlords. Dorca took power (slightly shaky claim there, too) and brought the Counts under his control. He took their armies away, he set the number of Districts (Sixty is a very convenient number - some families rose or fell during the consolidation. Vorhartungs had a castle in Vorbarr Sultana, but it's now owned by the Emperor, and there's apparently no more Vorhartungs. I don't think they'd be the only ones who lost badly in the shuffle.) After only ten years the wormhole opened, and ten years later the Cetagandans invaded. Twenty years - that's all Dorca had to get his Empire settled and all those 'traditions' in place. Then thirty years of bitter resistance. In some ways that bolstered Dorca's power within Barrayar; the people needed to have someone to trust. Dorca died just after the invasion ended. Yuri was emperor for only four years before the massacre, and two after that. Thirty-two years of Ezar's rule, during which the empire drifted into fascism until Ezar consolidated his power again, brutally (goodbye, Serg.) Ezar's death and then Vordarian's Big Mistake. Fifteen years of Aral's regency. Fourteen years of Gregor's adult rule. Roughly a century of the Empire As We Know It. And a lot of that time was spent in invasion or civil wars. They follow a lot of old traditions from the Bloody Centuries, but the political organisation is far newer than it seems. Barrayar is actually a pretty new invention. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7C2f003f9426fa4cb4634308da0fa50f30%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839498840367381%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=k8D2hS%2BDwnUwO%2BsFnr1Ifx3J038i9VOiLaeZAcVeHl0%3D&reserved=0 From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Sun Mar 27 15:10:36 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 14:10:36 +0000 Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Harvey Fishman" How old is Australia? The U.S. is approaching all of 250 years old. Canada dates from either The British North America Act of 1867 or The Statute of Westminster of 1931. Few of us live in really old societies. Harvey Gwynne: Laisa comments that Barrayar was settled after Komarr, but it feels so much older. And the culture does present that way, with titles and castles, and great emphasis on tradition. Ezar could have been much more Nexus-oriented, but he needed to emphasise tradition to strengthen his hold on power. I see Barrayar as being more aligned with a European and British 'feel' of the past. (I was being shown around a beautiful stately pile in the UK, and the guide said, rather slightingly, "That's the new wing, it was built in 1630.") I get that same feeling from Barrayar, with roots deep in the past. But Dorca's unification was about a century ago. It started at about the same time Piotr was born. He was ten when the wormhole was discovered. So when Miles was born there were people who could remember life before the end of the Time of Isolation. From huntkc at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 15:15:30 2022 From: huntkc at gmail.com (Karen Hunt) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 10:15:30 -0400 Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 10:10 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: "Harvey Fishman" > > How old is Australia? The U.S. is approaching all of 250 years old. > Canada dates from either The British North America Act of 1867 or The > Statute of Westminster of 1931. Few of us live in really old societies. > Harvey > > Gwynne: Laisa comments that Barrayar was settled after Komarr, but > it feels so much older. And the culture does present that way, with > titles and castles, and great emphasis on tradition. Ezar could have > been much more Nexus-oriented, but he needed to emphasise > tradition to strengthen his hold on power. I see Barrayar as being > more aligned with a European and British 'feel' of the past. (I was > being shown around a beautiful stately pile in the UK, and the > guide said, rather slightingly, "That's the new wing, it was built > in 1630.") I get that same feeling from Barrayar, with roots deep in > the past. But Dorca's unification was about a century ago. It > started at about the same time Piotr was born. He was ten when the > wormhole was discovered. So when Miles was born there were > people who could remember life before the end of the Time of > Isolation. > No, Barrayar was settled long before Komarr was. She was admiring a table that appeared to be very old, and asked Miles how old it was. Miles's response was that it was about 200 years old, and she noted that some of the domes on Komarr were 400 years old. Komarr has been settled for approximately 400 years. Barrayar was settled about 800 years ago. Her observation is that items on Barrayar seem old even when they aren't. From wawenri at msn.com Sun Mar 27 15:19:32 2022 From: wawenri at msn.com (WILLIAM A WENRICH) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 14:19:32 +0000 Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Time for the old joke: In America 100 years is a long time and 100 miles is a short distance. William A Wenrich * A sinner dependent on God?s grace. ________________________________ From: Lois-Bujold on behalf of Karen Hunt Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2022 8:15:30 AM To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. Subject: Re: [LMB] An ancient empire? On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 10:10 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: "Harvey Fishman" > > How old is Australia? The U.S. is approaching all of 250 years old. > Canada dates from either The British North America Act of 1867 or The > Statute of Westminster of 1931. Few of us live in really old societies. > Harvey > > Gwynne: Laisa comments that Barrayar was settled after Komarr, but > it feels so much older. And the culture does present that way, with > titles and castles, and great emphasis on tradition. Ezar could have > been much more Nexus-oriented, but he needed to emphasise > tradition to strengthen his hold on power. I see Barrayar as being > more aligned with a European and British 'feel' of the past. (I was > being shown around a beautiful stately pile in the UK, and the > guide said, rather slightingly, "That's the new wing, it was built > in 1630.") I get that same feeling from Barrayar, with roots deep in > the past. But Dorca's unification was about a century ago. It > started at about the same time Piotr was born. He was ten when the > wormhole was discovered. So when Miles was born there were > people who could remember life before the end of the Time of > Isolation. > No, Barrayar was settled long before Komarr was. She was admiring a table that appeared to be very old, and asked Miles how old it was. Miles's response was that it was about 200 years old, and she noted that some of the domes on Komarr were 400 years old. Komarr has been settled for approximately 400 years. Barrayar was settled about 800 years ago. Her observation is that items on Barrayar seem old even when they aren't. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to wawenri at msn.com Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.herald.co.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flois-bujold&data=04%7C01%7C%7Ca8c6dbb47b3e430eff1408da0ffc4c94%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637839873543631890%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=3r%2Fcz%2F9SbbCqLCByvZDG2FmlU3nLwF8Ia5KDCLucJdA%3D&reserved=0 From margdean56 at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 22:23:33 2022 From: margdean56 at gmail.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:23:33 -0600 Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think the main reason Barrayar seems so ancient is that the Time of Isolation essentially threw the Firsters back in time, culturally and technologically. The fact that most of the colonists came from Earth cultures with long histories behind them (English, Russian, French, Greek) was probably an influence as well; colonists from Asia or Africa or the Americas would probably have produced something quite different--though it might seem equally "ancient" to their later Galactic discoverers. --Margaret Dean From douglasw at his.com Mon Mar 28 00:40:19 2022 From: douglasw at his.com (Douglas Weinfield) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 19:40:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Been listening to "The Red Queen and Gentleman Jole" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2057941677.9749394.1648424419893.JavaMail.zimbra@his.com> I enjoyed it when I read it, but haven't really gone back to it. Now I'm listening to it on Audible, and I'm liking it a lot! It's much more humorous than I remembered. So I'm going to try Cryoburn next-wasn't a favorite, and I'm interested to see if I like it more in audio format. From fred.fredex at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 01:19:07 2022 From: fred.fredex at gmail.com (Fred) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 20:19:07 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Been listening to "The Red Queen and Gentleman Jole" In-Reply-To: <2057941677.9749394.1648424419893.JavaMail.zimbra@his.com> References: <2057941677.9749394.1648424419893.JavaMail.zimbra@his.com> Message-ID: while I have quibbles with the reading, generally it is very good, and the reader brings out, in his vocal expression, a lot of humor. Not j ust in GJ&RQ either... I laugh my tail off listening to Captain Vorpatril's Alliance! Fred On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 7:40 PM Douglas Weinfield wrote: > I enjoyed it when I read it, but haven't really gone back to it. > > Now I'm listening to it on Audible, and I'm liking it a lot! It's much > more humorous than I remembered. > > So I'm going to try Cryoburn next-wasn't a favorite, and I'm interested to > see if I like it more in audio format. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fred.fredex at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca Mon Mar 28 01:37:52 2022 From: alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca (alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 20:37:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [LMB] Been listening to "The Red Queen and Gentleman Jole" In-Reply-To: References: <2057941677.9749394.1648424419893.JavaMail.zimbra@his.com> Message-ID: I have to admit Grover Gardner is not among my faves as an audiobook narrator, partially because his accent is too American for my view of the Vorkosigans. A few years ago, I listened to about half of Cryoburn as an audiobook (by Gardner) and got frustrated with the reading (maybe because it felt too slow?) and finished the book by reading my print copy instead. I's love hear a female narrator do an audiobook of Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen. Alayne On Sun, 27 Mar 2022, Fred wrote: > while I have quibbles with the reading, generally it is very good, and the > reader brings out, in his vocal expression, a lot of humor. Not j ust in > GJ&RQ either... I laugh my tail off listening to Captain Vorpatril's > Alliance! > > Fred > > On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 7:40 PM Douglas Weinfield wrote: >>> I enjoyed it when I read it, but haven't really gone back to it. >> >> Now I'm listening to it on Audible, and I'm liking it a lot! It's much >> more humorous than I remembered. >> >> So I'm going to try Cryoburn next-wasn't a favorite, and I'm interested to >> see if I like it more in audio format. -- Alayne McGregor alayne at twobikes.ottawa.on.ca What we need is a tough new kind of feminism with no illusions. ... We need a kind of feminism that aims not just to assimilate into the institutions that men have created over the centuries, but to infiltrate and subvert them. -- Barbara Ehrenreich From fishman at panix.com Mon Mar 28 02:15:54 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 01:15:54 +0000 Subject: [LMB] And now for something completely different... In-Reply-To: References: <2057941677.9749394.1648424419893.JavaMail.zimbra@his.com> Message-ID: I just learned of the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame. I sort of doubt that Miles would have been inducted. (-; Harvey From baur at chello.at Mon Mar 28 07:05:15 2022 From: baur at chello.at (markus baur) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 08:05:15 +0200 Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4944ae7b-d822-d77f-1910-6f96f029d705@chello.at> Am 27.03.2022 um 23:23 schrieb Margaret Dean: > I think the main reason Barrayar seems so ancient is that the Time of > Isolation essentially threw the Firsters back in time, culturally and > technologically. The fact that most of the colonists came from Earth > cultures with long histories behind them (English, Russian, French, Greek) > was probably an influence as well; colonists from Asia or Africa or the > Americas would probably have produced something quite different--though it > might seem equally "ancient" to their later Galactic discoverers. that starts an interesting train of thought how would barrayar look like if the initial colonists would have been chinese, nipponese, koreans and other nationalities with similarly deep histories as English, Russian, French, Greek and all other factors would have stayed the same? servus markus -- markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Mar 28 12:56:56 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 11:56:56 +0000 Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: markus baur how would barrayar look like if the initial colonists would have been chinese, nipponese, koreans and other nationalities with similarly deep histories as English, Russian, French, Greek and all other factors would have stayed the same? markus Gwynne: Cetaganda? From lmb at matija.com Mon Mar 28 13:01:17 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:01:17 +0200 Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1aafb738-20d0-dd17-bd88-4e99a7a51d2f@matija.com> On 28/03/2022 13:56, Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: markus baur > > how would barrayar look like if the initial colonists would have been > chinese, nipponese, koreans and other nationalities with similarly deep > histories as English, Russian, French, Greek and all other factors would > have stayed the same? > markus > > Gwynne: Cetaganda? I don't remember reading that Cetaganda lost contact with the rest of humanity - in fact I assumed that they thought they would be able to conquer Barrayar precisely because they had galactic-level tech, and Barrayar did not. Certainly the time of isolation had a major effect on the path that Barrayar took, so looking at Cetaganda would not have much predictive power of what Barrayar would look like if it was settled by China+Japan+Korea instead of Russia+France+Greece. From kcollett at hamilton.edu Mon Mar 28 14:35:16 2022 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Katherine Collett) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 09:35:16 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Been listening to "The Red Queen and Gentleman Jole" In-Reply-To: References: <2057941677.9749394.1648424419893.JavaMail.zimbra@his.com> Message-ID: <0040D56F-7354-46A6-A06D-A160358FDE39@hamilton.edu> On Mar 27, 2022, at 8:37 PM, alayne--- via Lois-Bujold wrote: > > I have to admit Grover Gardner is not among my faves as an audiobook narrator, partially because his accent is too American for my view of the Vorkosigans. I agree, he sounds too American to my ears for the Vorkosigans, too -- and even more so for the Chalion books (NB: I am American myself, but my husband is English). But I very much enjoy them all, anyway. > I's love hear a female narrator do an audiobook of Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen. How about Phyllida Nash, who does a wonderful job with Georgette Heyer audiobooks? Katherine From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Mar 28 15:19:33 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:19:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Miles is back on a space station, and feels right at home... sort of. Happy memories. He sailed to Komarr with Aral and Cordelia - five days of talking, being open and comfortable together. Plus he scored an armsman; he wanted Pym, who was Cordelia's favourite. She wanted to swap him for Ma Kosti, but gave him up anyway. It's a fair thing to ask for an armsman; he is the Heir, and he'll be in Vorbarr Sultana. Aral will send a few more later, the ones whose families aren't happy on Sergyar (good to see them thinking about the armsmen and their families; it's a complex and two-way relationship.) Elli. Miles does love her, and she loves him. Well, she loves Naismith. I don't think she's ever met Vorkosigan, not properly. It's interesting that when Elli sees Miles she makes the same sort of sound that Aral made when he was reunited with Cordelia. One of Pym's first jobs as Miles's armsman is to get all his stuff - including body armour and a no-doubt astonishing array of weapons - through customs. They have a luxury suite, and it's all nicely romantic (but there's a memory of his time with Taura, in a suite, too.) Elli is seeing Allegre and the Galactic Affairs chief tomorrow. That'll be a tense meeting - but way better than it would have been with Haroche. Miles explains - well, everything. He's taken the oath, he's an Auditor now, there's no going back. (And, oddly, although it suits Miles perfectly, it was not ever something he even considered as an ambition. Well, no uniforms are involved.) Miles proposes to Elli one last time. A bit like Gregor offering Miles the ImpSec job - just making sure that the decision has been made and finalised. "I'd be with Lord Vorkosigan all the time. Not with you, Miles, not with Admiral Naismith." "Admiral Naismith was something I made up, Elli," he said gently. "He was my own invention. I'm an egotistical enough artist, I suppose, I'm glad you liked my creation. I made him up out of me, after all. But not all of me." .... and that's the problem. He gives her full disclosure; she could have the Dendarii. She wants it... but not now, not like this... but this is the time. (And there's always a price. Every good thing in the Vorkosiverse comes with some cost. But every bad thing leads on to good, if you hold tight and stay true.) Stay with me on a planet. Run free with me in space. There's no common ground there. "I tried, Elli. I tried for weeks. You don't know how hard I tried to go. I was never a mercenary, not ever. Not for one single minute." A flash of anger sparked briefly in her brown eyes. "Do you figure that makes you morally superior to the rest of us?" "No," he sighed. "But it makes me Miles Vorkosigan. Not Miles Naismith." "There always was a part of you I could never touch." Her voice was edged with pain. "I know. I worked for years to extinguish Lord Vorkosigan. I couldn't do it, not even for you. You can't select from me, Elli, take the parts you favour and leave the rest on the table." He gestured in frustration to their drying dinner. "I don't come a la carte. I'm all or nothing." "You could be anything you chose, Miles, anywhere! Why insist on this place?" He smiled, grimly. "No. I have discovered I am constrained on other levels." Miles says it best. He knows who he is now, he's at peace with himself. And he knows who he isn't. Elli just isn't an on-planet girl. She can't give up on everything she has, and is, and become Lady Vorkosigan. (Cordelia did. But she was in love with Aral, Elli is in love with Naismith.) Miles is Miles Vorkosigan. Elli is Admiral Quinn. They made love, first with desperation, each trying to win the other over at last. Then they relax, and it becomes a sweet and loving farewell. Miles does love her, and always will. (He's on good terms with most of his exes, and speaks about them with love and affection. That is a good quality. And speaking of exes, Miles asks Elli to let him know when Taura's time is up. He finally admits to her that he and Taura did have some special times together (apparently she never asked before.) Miles sets her free; she tells him she was always free. She even wishes him well in his search for Lady Vorkosigan. There's a very generous love between them - they like each other, as well as love. He tries to explain about the Auditors; there's no rank. They're all equal. Miles, that military-mad creature who aways had a powerful rage to get to the top of the tree, is now in a totally flat organisation. Miles feels like he's come home, to a place he's never been before. He feels that he belongs, and he's looking forward to his new job. And, after that final farewell with Elli, he heads back to Vorkosigan House. Just him, Pym and Ma Kosti - he plans to entertain more, have guests, bring life to the place. But not that first night. Then he has a little farewell ceremony. A bottle of old Piotr's best - but it's gone off. So he picks something newer and better. Stacks of symbolism there. He allows himself an hour to grieve for Naismith, killed for the third time. But... there's no grief. He laughs. Haroche never controlled Naismith, but he could have controlled Vorkosigan. It wasn't a death, it was an escape. All of Miles is inside, united, and calm. 'Harra Csurik had been almost right. It wasn't your life again you found, going on. It was your life anew.' And Miles is finally comfortable with himself, and now he's looking forward to his future. This book started so miserably, and it ends with serene triumph. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Mon Mar 28 15:37:48 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 14:37:48 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 29 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What if... what if Gregor hadn't offered Miles the Auditor's job. What if, when Miles was with Elli, he was looking at a life of working in the District and playing politics (not terrible, and still a useful life, but not an Auditorship.) Did Gregor make Miles an Auditor partly to keep him under control? This way he has a leash on Miles. He'd always have control anyway, Emperor and all, but the Auditorship keeps Miles focussed. You really don't want Miles wandering around aimlessly looking for things to do. (Yes, ok, he does that as an Auditor anyway, but at least he writes reports about it.) And then there's the whole issue of Elli and Taura. He loves Elli, he proposes regularly. He loves Taura, but she's not suitable for Lady Vorkosigan. But he is carrying on long relationships with both of them. And they're both in his chain of command; one a fellow-officer and one is enlisted. And yet... he just loves them both. He even invites both of them to his wedding. Is it Cordelia's Betan influence? It's an echo of his parents' relationship, although he doesn't know that for a long time. I'd love to see the interview between Elli and ImpSec. And after all the pain and angst, it's over. Miles has made it through in one piece, despite the fears of his family. He's actually a better Auditor because he made a shattering mistake, he has more understanding of people and events. This book takes you on a journey, it's confronting and exhausting. And inspiring. It took Miles a long time to grow up, but he did it triumphantly. From domelouann at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 18:23:11 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 12:23:11 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 29 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 9:38 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Did Gregor make Miles an Auditor partly to keep him under > control? This way he has a leash on Miles. He'd always have > control anyway, Emperor and all, but the Auditorship keeps > Miles focussed. You really don't want Miles wandering around > aimlessly looking for things to do. > I don't doubt that both of those factors were keenly in Gregor's mind. But also, "he's so brilliant, let's give him enough work to keep him happy." Maybe a further unfair tax on Vorkosigan's District, but also motivated by affection for Miles as well as Imperial thrift. I rarely disagree with countess Cordelia, but I do here. Miles wasn't going to leave his father bereft, and incidentally drop an unwanted Countship on Mark that Mark was in no way qualified to handle. The little Admiral was no match for home and family. From domelouann at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 02:14:30 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 20:14:30 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Plot Bunny: Nikki Message-ID: He's bound to have an interesting angle on the High Vor world that he came into after nine or ten years growing up middle class. We don't know much about his later childhood, although he seems to have merged into the Vorkosigan family pretty well. I would love to know if he got to be a pilot, and on what terms. From rgmolpus at flash.net Tue Mar 29 02:56:55 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 01:56:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Plot Bunny: Nikki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1706677431.974969.1648519015185@mail.yahoo.com> There's "Meditations on Simulations and Loneliness" by Heronymus; https://archiveofourown.org/works/22138309/chapters/52842916 . It gives a look at Nikki after his implant is installed, during his junior pilots years. I hope?the author will continue the story! On Monday, March 28, 2022, 08:14:56 PM CDT, Louann Miller wrote: He's bound to have an interesting angle on the High Vor world that he came into after nine or ten years growing up middle class. We don't know much about his later childhood,? although he seems to have merged into the Vorkosigan family pretty well. I would love to know if he got to be a pilot,? and on what terms. -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Tue Mar 29 12:00:33 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 11:00:33 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, we've wandered through Memory. Any further comments? Views of the book over all, or any stray ideas? I'm pondering the idea of the next book. We did Komarr fairly recently, so I'm leaning towards ACC, since it continues the events of the Imperial wedding. And it has some interesting highs and lows - from slapstick to heartwrenching drama, to wry humour to tension and intrigue... something for everyone, plus bugs. And Mark, who I think merits some more attention from the board. From kcollett at hamilton.edu Tue Mar 29 13:43:14 2022 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Katherine Collett) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 08:43:14 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87D03DA9-AF45-47DF-946E-03CF9CD4ACF4@hamilton.edu> On Mar 7, 2022, at 10:36 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Miles finally knows why he hasn't seen the doctors yet. > Turns out Naismith isn't nearly as wily as Vorkosigan. I never have really understood this. Why hadn't he seen the doctors earlier? What was his subconscious reason? Katherine From sylviamcivers at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 14:48:50 2022 From: sylviamcivers at gmail.com (Sylvia McIvers) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 09:48:50 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 7:00 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > Well, we've wandered through Memory. Any ... stray ideas? > > Yes: Thank you, Gwynne, for doing the summary & comment pages for each chapter. I know how much time it takes to write... and before you write, you have to organize your thoughts. That's a job and a half ;) > I'm pondering the idea of the next book. ... ACC,... > And Mark, who I think merits some more attention from the board. > A moment to ponder. ACC has the dinner scene, which is necessary for the plot but horrible. Mark's Booke Of Horror has many many horrible scenes which are necessary for Mark's growth, but stomach churning all the same. (His gut or mine? Heh. Poor guy) Not just his scenes with Ryoval, but the beginning where he is lying to Bel, and later his scene with Miss Maree The Sacrifice To Her Lady. So maybe Next Up is not a book in its entirety, but Themes. Why are awful scenes needful to the plot? In real life, can the same reasons help people get through awful scenes in reality? Or, Why Fiction Is Not Escapist Nonsense. Memory has some awful scenes - Miles shooting his courier in the foot, Miles shooting himself in the foot with his report, Miles tearing off his Horus eyes, Miles sitting with the knife & bottle of wine and choosing neither, Miles watching sunlight move in and out of the room. All bad, but no horror scenes. Where's the point where bad becomes awful? What is the point where destructive behavior crosses the line to horror? (I'm picturing someone sitting on the couch, watching a horror show, clutching a pillow and shouting, "Don't go in!") Why are some scenes so awful that people skip chunks of the book on a re-read, but other terrible scenes are awful but not as bad? Think of Cordelia and Ges *shudder* and Ekaterine and Tien. Abuse of prisoners, Abuse of spouse. Ges and Bothari, abuse of subordinates. Go for it. Have fun. Sylvia From lmb at matija.com Tue Mar 29 17:13:42 2022 From: lmb at matija.com (Matija Grabnar) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 18:13:42 +0200 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 In-Reply-To: <87D03DA9-AF45-47DF-946E-03CF9CD4ACF4@hamilton.edu> References: <87D03DA9-AF45-47DF-946E-03CF9CD4ACF4@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: <66d29a1e-cdfb-d9f7-55cc-01cc7ff8ced0@matija.com> On 29/03/2022 14:43, Katherine Collett wrote: > On Mar 7, 2022, at 10:36 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: >> Miles finally knows why he hasn't seen the doctors yet. >> Turns out Naismith isn't nearly as wily as Vorkosigan. > I never have really understood this. Why hadn't he seen the doctors earlier? What was his subconscious reason? The feeling that as long as he didn't discuss it with a doctor, it wasn't really real? The same reason some people walk around with significant pain, and when they go to the doctor, the doctors say "why didn't you come in years ago?" Miles has had many (painful) visits to doctors, but they were mostly for stuff that was very obvious, i.e. broken bones. From domelouann at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 18:27:06 2022 From: domelouann at gmail.com (Louann Miller) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 12:27:06 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 In-Reply-To: <66d29a1e-cdfb-d9f7-55cc-01cc7ff8ced0@matija.com> References: <87D03DA9-AF45-47DF-946E-03CF9CD4ACF4@hamilton.edu> <66d29a1e-cdfb-d9f7-55cc-01cc7ff8ced0@matija.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 11:13 AM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > On 29/03/2022 14:43, Katherine Collett wrote: > > > I never have really understood this. Why hadn't he seen the doctors > earlier? What was his subconscious reason? > > The feeling that as long as he didn't discuss it with a doctor, it > wasn't really real? The same reason some people walk around with > significant pain, and when they go to the doctor, the doctors say "why > didn't you come in years ago?" > I think it says somewhere in the text that if Miles had gotten his head fixed too early in the story, he would probably have felt logically compelled to go be Naismith again. So Lord Vorkosigan, sneaky grandson of the great guerilla general that he is, kept diverting core-Miles from that idea. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 21:20:25 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 15:20:25 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 In-Reply-To: References: <87D03DA9-AF45-47DF-946E-03CF9CD4ACF4@hamilton.edu> <66d29a1e-cdfb-d9f7-55cc-01cc7ff8ced0@matija.com> Message-ID: Of course when Miles did get the cure, it turned out it wasn't really a cure, just a stop gap measure that would have kept him out of the action with the Dendarii forces. On Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 12:27 PM Louann Miller wrote: > On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 11:13 AM Matija Grabnar via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > On 29/03/2022 14:43, Katherine Collett wrote: > > > > > I never have really understood this. Why hadn't he seen the doctors > > earlier? What was his subconscious reason? > > > > The feeling that as long as he didn't discuss it with a doctor, it > > wasn't really real? The same reason some people walk around with > > significant pain, and when they go to the doctor, the doctors say "why > > didn't you come in years ago?" > > > > I think it says somewhere in the text that if Miles had gotten his head > fixed too early in the story, he would probably have felt logically > compelled to go be Naismith again. So Lord Vorkosigan, sneaky grandson of > the great guerilla general that he is, kept diverting core-Miles from that > idea. > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 21:48:04 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 15:48:04 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think for every successful novel, you need the bad to emphasize the good. The dinner party in ACC was a lesson to Miles that the first casualty of a operation was the plan. And if you look outside the reader's empathy towards Miles, it is a pretty hysterical scene (which of course makes it more awful for poor Miles) and yet I can't help wondering if years down the road Ekaterin and Miles would laugh about, The Dinner Party. On Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 8:49 AM Sylvia McIvers wrote: > On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 7:00 AM Gwynne Powell > wrote: > > > > > > > Well, we've wandered through Memory. Any ... stray ideas? > > > > Yes: Thank you, Gwynne, for doing the summary & comment pages for each > chapter. I know how much time it takes to write... and before you write, > you have to organize your thoughts. That's a job and a half ;) > > > > I'm pondering the idea of the next book. ... ACC,... > > And Mark, who I think merits some more attention from the board. > > > > > A moment to ponder. > ACC has the dinner scene, which is necessary for the plot but horrible. > Mark's Booke Of Horror has many many horrible scenes which are necessary > for Mark's growth, but stomach churning all the same. (His gut or mine? > Heh. Poor guy) > Not just his scenes with Ryoval, but the beginning where he is lying to > Bel, and later his scene with Miss Maree The Sacrifice To Her Lady. > > So maybe Next Up is not a book in its entirety, but Themes. > > Why are awful scenes needful to the plot? In real life, can the same > reasons help people get through awful scenes in reality? Or, Why Fiction > Is Not Escapist Nonsense. > > Memory has some awful scenes - Miles shooting his courier in the foot, > Miles shooting himself in the foot with his report, Miles tearing off his > Horus eyes, Miles sitting with the knife & bottle of wine and choosing > neither, Miles watching sunlight move in and out of the room. All bad, > but no horror scenes. > Where's the point where bad becomes awful? What is the point where > destructive behavior crosses the line to horror? (I'm picturing someone > sitting on the couch, watching a horror show, clutching a pillow and > shouting, "Don't go in!") > > Why are some scenes so awful that people skip chunks of the book on a > re-read, but other terrible scenes are awful but not as bad? > Think of Cordelia and Ges *shudder* and Ekaterine and Tien. Abuse of > prisoners, Abuse of spouse. Ges and Bothari, abuse of subordinates. > > Go for it. Have fun. > Sylvia > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From howard at brazee.net Tue Mar 29 23:45:18 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 16:45:18 -0600 Subject: [LMB] OT: Bookmark Alignment Chart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <197CE0EE-6FE9-4ADD-B2A9-21E028CAE2E4@brazee.net> > On Mar 26, 2022, at 5:59 PM, Fred wrote: > > years ago when we subscribed to paper magazines (remember them?), that all > came with multiple advertising cards stuck inside, I hadn?t thought of them for a while. I used to work for a company whose business was free subscriptions. Cahners publishing had cards people filled out to get directed magazines. We had trade secret software to try to decrease the amount of fake cards, and had a dirty-word file. From howard at brazee.net Tue Mar 29 23:47:44 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 16:47:44 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 28 - Part 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 26, 2022, at 9:04 PM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > It's an engagement party! But since it's Imperial, it's all very > complicated. (And the betrothal is as binding as a wedding, so > this is really big bikkies. In some traditional societies, including > Greece, after the engagement the couple wouldn't marry until > the bride was pregnant, thus proving their fertility. Technology would change this imperative. From howard at brazee.net Wed Mar 30 01:24:44 2022 From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 18:24:44 -0600 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 In-Reply-To: <87D03DA9-AF45-47DF-946E-03CF9CD4ACF4@hamilton.edu> References: <87D03DA9-AF45-47DF-946E-03CF9CD4ACF4@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: <1AE2DC2C-5E41-4BE5-A999-77B27C1EBFC0@brazee.net> > On Mar 29, 2022, at 6:43 AM, Katherine Collett wrote: > >> Miles finally knows why he hasn't seen the doctors yet. >> Turns out Naismith isn't nearly as wily as Vorkosigan. > > I never have really understood this. Why hadn't he seen the doctors earlier? What was his subconscious reason? He is stuck on roles and identity. From fishman at panix.com Wed Mar 30 02:49:02 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 01:49:02 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Bookmark Alignment Chart In-Reply-To: <197CE0EE-6FE9-4ADD-B2A9-21E028CAE2E4@brazee.net> References: <197CE0EE-6FE9-4ADD-B2A9-21E028CAE2E4@brazee.net> Message-ID: Still happens. I get a lot of magazines (paper) and most of them have blown in cards, which I pick out and dispose of. Then there are the bound in cards which are even more of a pain as it is difficult to remove them. At least with staple-stitched magazines, it is relatively easy to remove them but with perfect bound publications it is a real pain. Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: "Howard Brazee" To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 3/29/2022 6:45:18 PM Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Bookmark Alignment Chart > > >> On Mar 26, 2022, at 5:59 PM, Fred wrote: >> >> years ago when we subscribed to paper magazines (remember them?), that all >> came with multiple advertising cards stuck inside, > >I hadn?t thought of them for a while. I used to work for a company whose business was free subscriptions. Cahners publishing had cards people filled out to get directed magazines. We had trade secret software to try to decrease the amount of fake cards, and had a dirty-word file. > > > > > >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 30 03:03:11 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 02:03:11 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Katherine Collett On Mar 7, 2022, at 10:36 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > Miles finally knows why he hasn't seen the doctors yet. > Turns out Naismith isn't nearly as wily as Vorkosigan. I never have really understood this. Why hadn't he seen the doctors earlier? What was his subconscious reason? Katherine Gwynne: Naismith would have made a run for the Dendarii. Miles's family knew that. His mother - who possibly knew him better than anyone, and who had a certain Betan objectivity as well as mother - love - believed that he'd go. His cousins thought he'd go. His ImpSec psych assessment probably said he'd go; Haroche, after reading the reports on Miles, certainly thought so. Miles himself thought that he'd go once his head was fixed. The Auditors read all the reports and wondered why he hadn't grabbed Haroche's offer to get Naismith back again. Naismith would have run - everyone knew it. But Vorkosigan didn't want to run - that would have extinguished him forever. So he did the one thing that would nail him down; he stopped him from getting his head fixed. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 03:42:40 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 21:42:40 -0500 Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? In-Reply-To: <4944ae7b-d822-d77f-1910-6f96f029d705@chello.at> References: <4944ae7b-d822-d77f-1910-6f96f029d705@chello.at> Message-ID: I get the sense that a certain percentage of the Firsters were terraforming technicians who didn't plan on staying on the planet but got stuck there when the wormhole collapsed. They would have been useful for terraforming but the wouldn't have been equipped to be settlers. On Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 1:05 AM markus baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > Am 27.03.2022 um 23:23 schrieb Margaret Dean: > > I think the main reason Barrayar seems so ancient is that the Time of > > Isolation essentially threw the Firsters back in time, culturally and > > technologically. The fact that most of the colonists came from Earth > > cultures with long histories behind them (English, Russian, French, > Greek) > > was probably an influence as well; colonists from Asia or Africa or the > > Americas would probably have produced something quite different--though > it > > might seem equally "ancient" to their later Galactic discoverers. > > that starts an interesting train of thought > > how would barrayar look like if the initial colonists would have been > chinese, nipponese, koreans and other nationalities with similarly deep > histories as English, Russian, French, Greek and all other factors would > have stayed the same? > > servus > > markus > > > -- > markus baur SCA: markus von brixlegg > schluesselgasse 3/5 tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 > a-1040 wien email: baur at chello.at > austria/europe icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E > > a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html > > "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 03:48:27 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 21:48:27 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Been listening to "The Red Queen and Gentleman Jole" In-Reply-To: <0040D56F-7354-46A6-A06D-A160358FDE39@hamilton.edu> References: <2057941677.9749394.1648424419893.JavaMail.zimbra@his.com> <0040D56F-7354-46A6-A06D-A160358FDE39@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: I'm currently reading "Cryoburn" i must admit it's taking me a while to get into it. On Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 8:35 AM Katherine Collett wrote: > On Mar 27, 2022, at 8:37 PM, alayne--- via Lois-Bujold < > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > > > I have to admit Grover Gardner is not among my faves as an audiobook > narrator, partially because his accent is too American for my view of the > Vorkosigans. > > I agree, he sounds too American to my ears for the Vorkosigans, too -- and > even more so for the Chalion books (NB: I am American myself, but my > husband is English). But I very much enjoy them all, anyway. > > > I's love hear a female narrator do an audiobook of Gentleman Jole and > the Red Queen. > > How about Phyllida Nash, who does a wonderful job with Georgette Heyer > audiobooks? > > Katherine > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rgmolpus at flash.net Wed Mar 30 04:05:22 2022 From: rgmolpus at flash.net (Richard Molpus) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 03:05:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? In-Reply-To: References: <4944ae7b-d822-d77f-1910-6f96f029d705@chello.at> Message-ID: <426917702.1305823.1648609522738@mail.yahoo.com> I addressed that in my History of Vorhartung Castle. I estimated there were 20k engineers and techs present, in addition to the dedicated colonists. the 20k were doing things like commissioning the orbital platforms, doing survey work, installing the power plants - all intended to leave after a few years, when the colonies' tech base was completed. But.... On Tuesday, March 29, 2022, 09:43:13 PM CDT, Raymond Collins wrote: I get the sense that a certain percentage of the Firsters were terraforming technicians who didn't plan on staying on the planet but got stuck there when the wormhole collapsed. They would have been useful for terraforming but the wouldn't have been equipped to be settlers. On Mon, Mar 28, 2022, 1:05 AM markus baur via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > Am 27.03.2022 um 23:23 schrieb Margaret Dean: > > I think the main reason Barrayar seems so ancient is that the Time of > > Isolation essentially threw the Firsters back in time, culturally and > > technologically. The fact that most of the colonists came from Earth > > cultures with long histories behind them (English, Russian, French, > Greek) > > was probably an influence as well; colonists from Asia or Africa or the > > Americas would probably have produced something quite different--though > it > > might seem equally "ancient" to their later Galactic discoverers. > > that starts an interesting train of thought > > how would barrayar look like if the initial colonists would have been > chinese, nipponese, koreans and other nationalities with similarly deep > histories as English, Russian, French, Greek and all other factors would > have stayed the same? > > servus > > markus > > > -- > markus baur? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? SCA: markus von brixlegg > schluesselgasse 3/5? ? ? ? ? ? tel: +43 - (0)1 - 50 40 662 > a-1040 wien? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? email: baur at chello.at > austria/europe? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? icbm: 48?11'39"N; 16?22'06"E > > a portrait: http://www.abcgallery.com/A/arcimboldo/arcimboldo9.html > > "der Markus?? .... das ist der mit dem Buch..." > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rgmolpus at flash.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From nlbarber at alumni.emory.edu Wed Mar 30 04:16:50 2022 From: nlbarber at alumni.emory.edu (Nancy L Barber) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 23:16:50 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Been listening to "The Red Queen and Gentleman Jole" In-Reply-To: <0040D56F-7354-46A6-A06D-A160358FDE39@hamilton.edu> References: <0040D56F-7354-46A6-A06D-A160358FDE39@hamilton.edu> Message-ID: <3F5E0043-5264-437D-8E50-B1CDD8C2847D@alumni.emory.edu> On Mar 28, 2022, at 9:35 AM, Katherine Collett wrote: > > ?On Mar 27, 2022, at 8:37 PM, alayne--- via Lois-Bujold wrote: >> >> I have to admit Grover Gardner is not among my faves as an audiobook narrator, partially because his accent is too American for my view of the Vorkosigans. > > I agree, he sounds too American to my ears for the Vorkosigans, too -- and even more so for the Chalion books (NB: I am American myself, but my husband is English). But I very much enjoy them all, anyway. I?m not bothered by Gardner?s readings of the Penric stories, but then, I?m a American and my brain doesn?t seem to need them to be British-inflected. I love Kate Reading?s narration of _Paladin_, really dislike Lloyd James? _Curse_ (it always takes a while for me to get buried in the story so his horrible phrasing quits annoying me), and am agnostic to Marguerite Gavin?s _Hallowed Hunt _, where I?m not a huge fan of her male voices. Nancy, frequent re-listener to all the 5 Gods stories From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 30 04:17:00 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 03:17:00 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 28 - Part 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Howard Brazee > On Mar 26, 2022, at 9:04 PM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > It's an engagement party! But since it's Imperial, it's all very > complicated. (And the betrothal is as binding as a wedding, so > this is really big bikkies. In some traditional societies, including > Greece, after the engagement the couple wouldn't marry until > the bride was pregnant, thus proving their fertility. Technology would change this imperative. Gwynne: But at the time Barrayaran traditions were being created technology was at a very low level. And even after the ToI ended, reproductive tech was low on their shopping list. They'd been in touch with the Nexus for seventy years before the first few Uterine Replicators arrived on-planet. Thirty years later UR tech was an option, but not an automatic choice, even at the highest levels of society. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 30 04:23:47 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 03:23:47 +0000 Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Raymond Collins I get the sense that a certain percentage of the Firsters were terraforming technicians who didn't plan on staying on the planet but got stuck there when the wormhole collapsed. They would have been useful for terraforming but the wouldn't have been equipped to be settlers. Gwynne: I'm not sure about that; I think that the first group were the ones with the necessary technical knowledge, but they were always going to stay on the planet - I don't think that they could afford the expense of employing teams of people and transporting them there and back. It's far easier to recruit people with the skills - maybe if you had the right skills you'd pay less or even nothing to buy your share in the colony. And they apparently included horses in the array of animals sent to the colony, which suggests that they were planning for a fairly low level of technology, at least for some things. Horses are transport, plus the manure helps with terraforming. They can pull ploughs, so you don't need expensive and energy-hungry equipment. And they reproduce, unlike tractors. From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 05:49:57 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 23:49:57 -0500 Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You have a point there. There were only 50,000 colonists at the time. Enough to fill most specialities needed to terraform a planet and maintain the colony's infrastructure. Of course (of course I'm free associating this) the colony must have started out with several widely dispersed settlements which may have evolved into some of the districts of present day Barrayar. How each of those settlements survived is a story in itself. On Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 10:24 PM Gwynne Powell wrote: > From: Raymond Collins > > I get the sense that a certain percentage of the Firsters were terraforming > technicians who didn't plan on staying on the planet but got stuck there > when the wormhole collapsed. They would have been useful for terraforming > but the wouldn't have been equipped to be settlers. > > Gwynne: I'm not sure about that; I think that the first group were the ones > with the necessary technical knowledge, but they were always going to stay > on > the planet - I don't think that they could afford the expense of employing > teams > of people and transporting them there and back. It's far easier to recruit > people > with the skills - maybe if you had the right skills you'd pay less or even > nothing > to buy your share in the colony. And they apparently included horses in the > array of animals sent to the colony, which suggests that they were > planning for > a fairly low level of technology, at least for some things. Horses are > transport, > plus the manure helps with terraforming. They can pull ploughs, so you > don't > need expensive and energy-hungry equipment. And they reproduce, unlike > tractors. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 30 15:26:19 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 14:26:19 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyyy!!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We send our best and brightest birthday wishes to Elizabeth Whitt! Elizabeth, we hope that your birthday is a wonderful day of fun and love. And to help you celebrate, you will be spending the day with that doyen of High Vor society, Lady Alys Vorpatril. She will take you on a special tour of the Residence, and share some of the best and most interesting stories, and scandals, from past events there. You'll see wonderful artworks, explore the gardens (most of them designed by Ekaterin Vorkosigan, and one by Emperor Ezar himself!) You'll have a High Tea in the gardens, with all the tastiest cream cakes and other delicacies from the Residence kitchens. Some of the Imperial family might drop by, too - those cream cakes are always a big drawcard! Have a lovely day, Elizabeth! From ladylyzbeth at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 15:33:44 2022 From: ladylyzbeth at gmail.com (Elizabeth) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 10:33:44 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Birthdayyyyyy!!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you so much! It was a wonderful day - the cream cakes are gone and the scandals were very juicy!! ~~ *Elizabeth W You only need one commandment: Don't hurt anybody. Carl Reiner * On Wed, Mar 30, 2022 at 10:26 AM Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > We send our best and brightest birthday wishes to Elizabeth Whitt! > > Elizabeth, we hope that your birthday is a wonderful day of fun and love. > > And to help you celebrate, you will be spending the day with that > doyen of High Vor society, Lady Alys Vorpatril. She will take you on a > special tour of the Residence, and share some of the best and most > interesting stories, and scandals, from past events there. You'll see > wonderful artworks, explore the gardens (most of them designed by > Ekaterin Vorkosigan, and one by Emperor Ezar himself!) You'll have > a High Tea in the gardens, with all the tastiest cream cakes and other > delicacies from the Residence kitchens. Some of the Imperial family > might drop by, too - those cream cakes are always a big drawcard! > > Have a lovely day, Elizabeth! > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ladylyzbeth at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 30 15:34:47 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 14:34:47 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Birthday!!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Today we celebrate the birthday of Michael Bauminger. Michael, we hope you have a wonderful birthday, and send you our best birthday wishes. And to help you celebrate you'll be spending the day with Lord Mark Vorkosigan, at his newest commercial venture in Vorbarr Sultana: his new night club! Mark will give you a guided tour of Cockroach Central - and he knows some hair-raising stories about the bad old days there. He's also set up a museum of some (hopefully outmoded) equipment, and you can even spend a few minutes in one of the old cells. Then you'll have a great night as the place comes to life, it's the latest 'in' place in the capital, and you'll see a lot of famous faces enjoying themselves. Enjoy the range of tasty snacks and special drinks - but watch out for the FastPenta special, unless you have a very clear conscience! Party on into the night, Michael! From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Wed Mar 30 15:39:30 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 14:39:30 +0000 Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Raymond Collins You have a point there. There were only 50,000 colonists at the time. Enough to fill most specialities needed to terraform a planet and maintain the colony's infrastructure. Of course (of course I'm free associating this) the colony must have started out with several widely dispersed settlements which may have evolved into some of the districts of present day Barrayar. How each of those settlements survived is a story in itself. Gwynne: Yes, the four main cultural groups seem to have maintained their identity over all those centuries, so probably they separated early, and split into the basic four at least (maybe more, and some were absorbed over time.) From kcollett at hamilton.edu Wed Mar 30 16:39:22 2022 From: kcollett at hamilton.edu (Kathy Collett) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 11:39:22 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory Ch 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 29, 2022, at 10:03 PM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > ?. Miles himself thought that > he'd go once his head was fixed. The Auditors read all the reports > and wondered why he hadn't grabbed Haroche's offer to get > Naismith back again. Naismith would have run - everyone knew it. > > But Vorkosigan didn't want to run - that would have extinguished him > forever. So he did the one thing that would nail him down; he stopped > him from getting his head fixed. This finally makes sense to me! All the responses have helped, but Gwynne, your analysis unpacks it in a way that lays out Miles?s subconscious reasons really clearly. Thank you! Katherine From cjbotteron at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 21:45:33 2022 From: cjbotteron at gmail.com (Carol Botteron) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 16:45:33 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: The Vonnegut in the Classroom Message-ID: >From a Tufts University publication: How do you teach one of the most challenging authors in American literature to a group of freshmen -- Kurt's grandson among them? https://now.tufts.edu/articles/vonnegut-classroom From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 21:57:54 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 15:57:54 -0500 Subject: [LMB] ISO a fic Message-ID: Can anybody point me to the one that was related to Glishara's *Guerrilla*, where Aral and Cordelia get Miles' body back? From saffronrose at me.com Wed Mar 30 23:07:35 2022 From: saffronrose at me.com (A. Marina Fournier) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 15:07:35 -0700 Subject: [LMB] OT: The Vonnegut in the Classroom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2D25EA87-4794-4698-86E1-83D9B4B1E121@me.com> On Mar 30, 2022, at 1:47 PM, Carol Botteron wrote: > > ?From a Tufts University publication: > How do you teach one of the most challenging authors in American literature > to a group of freshmen -- Kurt's grandson among them? > https://now.tufts.edu/articles/vonnegut-classroom Interesting article, thanks. May have been as interesting as a math class with Tom Lehrer. Marina Fournier From matt.msg at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 23:28:21 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 18:28:21 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Plot Bunny: Nikki In-Reply-To: <1706677431.974969.1648519015185@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1706677431.974969.1648519015185@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If he's making up the story as he goes along, it's not likely we can expect much in terms of plot development. Most authors exaggerate the degree to which they're surprised by the way a story develops - they come up with an unexpected idea, then do a great deal of work to expand upon and further that idea. Matt G. From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Thu Mar 31 02:43:13 2022 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 01:43:13 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory & tixie Message-ID: Gwynne,? ? Thank you once again for your brilliant, insightful, detailed, and extensive analysis of _Memory_.? Even after all these years, you're still finding new details for us to savor and ponder. ? All this, and tixie-ing in the best style, too! ? Colossal kudos! ? Jerrie From fishman at panix.com Thu Mar 31 03:17:54 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 02:17:54 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory & tixie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What she said!!!!!!!!!!!! Harvey ------ Original Message ------ From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com To: "lmb-list" Cc: "Gwynne Powell" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 3/30/2022 9:43:13 PM Subject: [LMB] Memory & tixie >Gwynne, > >Thank you once again for your brilliant, insightful, detailed, and extensive analysis of _Memory_. Even after all these years, you're still finding new details for us to savor and ponder. > >All this, and tixie-ing in the best style, too! > >Colossal kudos! > >Jerrie > >-- >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 09:01:40 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 03:01:40 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory & tixie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Amen! On Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 9:18 PM Harvey Fishman wrote: > What she said!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Harvey > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com > To: "lmb-list" > Cc: "Gwynne Powell" > Bcc: fishman at panix.com > Sent: 3/30/2022 9:43:13 PM > Subject: [LMB] Memory & tixie > > >Gwynne, > > > >Thank you once again for your brilliant, insightful, detailed, and > extensive analysis of _Memory_. Even after all these years, you're still > finding new details for us to savor and ponder. > > > >All this, and tixie-ing in the best style, too! > > > >Colossal kudos! > > > >Jerrie > > > >-- > >Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to fishman at panix.com > >Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > >http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Mar 31 12:36:12 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 11:36:12 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory & tixie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Gwynne, Thank you once again for your brilliant, insightful, detailed, and extensive analysis of _Memory_.? Even after all these years, you're still finding new details for us to savor and ponder. All this, and tixie-ing in the best style, too! Colossal kudos! Jerrie Gwynne: Thank you for the kind words. I just ramble through each chapter, enjoying it all. I'm often surprised at some new angle that I'd missed previously. And the comments and discussions on the board bring up some good points. Give me a day or so, I have French homework to finish tonight. I'll start another one soon. I'm still leaning towards ACC. But there's so many other good choices.... From wembleyware at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 13:37:12 2022 From: wembleyware at gmail.com (Sharon Micenko) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 20:37:12 +0800 Subject: [LMB] Memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C3E0CE1-A8C9-4DF6-83A2-DF93FC46A162@gmail.com> I?d like to say a big thank you to Gwynne as well. I really enjoyed this read-through with all the new points of view and insights. Sharon From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Mar 31 15:35:36 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 15:35:36 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: The Vonnegut in the Classroom In-Reply-To: <2D25EA87-4794-4698-86E1-83D9B4B1E121@me.com> References: <2D25EA87-4794-4698-86E1-83D9B4B1E121@me.com> Message-ID: <9veb4h9qha0enta6siilj4muoms6ri2shd@4ax.com> On Wed, 30 Mar 2022 15:07:35 -0700, "A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold" wrote: >On Mar 30, 2022, at 1:47 PM, Carol Botteron wrote: >> >> ?From a Tufts University publication: >> How do you teach one of the most challenging authors in American literature >> to a group of freshmen -- Kurt's grandson among them? >> https://now.tufts.edu/articles/vonnegut-classroom > >Interesting article, thanks. > >May have been as interesting as a math class with Tom Lehrer. Or a physics/safecracking lesson with Feynman. -- Why should we take advice on sex from the pope? If he knows anything about it, he shouldn't! - George Bernard Shaw From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Mar 31 15:37:18 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 15:37:18 +0100 Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24fb4h1t9nfj4huiles0moufe4e72oaavs@4ax.com> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 04:07:57 +0000, "Harvey Fishman" wrote: >How old is Australia? The U.S. is approaching all of 250 years old. >Canada dates from either The British North America Act of 1867 or The >Statute of Westminster of 1931. Few of us live in really old societies. My high school is older than many countries. Founded 1620. -- Why should we take advice on sex from the pope? If he knows anything about it, he shouldn't! - George Bernard Shaw From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Mar 31 15:38:32 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 15:38:32 +0100 Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 14:19:32 +0000, WILLIAM A WENRICH wrote: >Time for the old joke: In America 100 years is a long time and 100 miles is a short distance. In the USA, 100 years is a long time; in the UK, 100 miles is a long way. Nowhere in the UK is more than 50 miles from the sea. -- Why should we take advice on sex from the pope? If he knows anything about it, he shouldn't! - George Bernard Shaw From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Mar 31 15:51:34 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 15:51:34 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ukraine connection Message-ID: <5gfb4h1nnnbdklstq9e3105ngurmlrgq98@4ax.com> I've despised Vlad The Invader, the smirking botoxed war-gnome, for some time - in a distant sort of way. But now it's personal, and visceral, and hot. I learned recently that a net.friend (whom I have once met in meatspace, many years ago) was killed by Russian soldiers while trying to escape to Moldova with two of her friends, this time last week. She was on her way to Wales, to stay in a cottage owned by a mutual friend, under the UK government's rather grudging sponsorship scheme. She was a *chef*, for fuck's sake, as harmless a person as you could wish to meet (despite owning a load of big sharp knives). And a wonderful person to boot, with a wry sense of humour and an ... interesting approach to the English language (her mixup of English, Ukrainian and Russian was known as "Tashlish" in uk.rec.sheds). GNU Natasha Evgenyeyvna Arkangelskeyna Scherbineyna Tchebotareva (aka Tash). Sad now. -- If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried. From marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk Thu Mar 31 15:53:32 2022 From: marc.wilson at gmx.co.uk (Marc Wilson) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 15:53:32 +0100 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 29 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 12:23:11 -0500, Louann Miller wrote: >On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 9:38 AM Gwynne Powell >wrote: > >> >> Did Gregor make Miles an Auditor partly to keep him under >> control? This way he has a leash on Miles. He'd always have >> control anyway, Emperor and all, but the Auditorship keeps >> Miles focussed. You really don't want Miles wandering around >> aimlessly looking for things to do. >> > >I don't doubt that both of those factors were keenly in Gregor's mind. But >also, "he's so brilliant, let's give him enough work to keep him happy." >Maybe a further unfair tax on Vorkosigan's District, but also motivated by >affection for Miles as well as Imperial thrift. > >I rarely disagree with countess Cordelia, but I do here. Miles wasn't going >to leave his father bereft, and incidentally drop an unwanted Countship on >Mark that Mark was in no way qualified to handle. The little Admiral was no >match for home and family. Didn't Miles go and *ask* for the auditor's job? -- If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried. From becca7108 at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 15:55:53 2022 From: becca7108 at gmail.com (Becca Price) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 10:55:53 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ukraine connection In-Reply-To: <5gfb4h1nnnbdklstq9e3105ngurmlrgq98@4ax.com> References: <5gfb4h1nnnbdklstq9e3105ngurmlrgq98@4ax.com> Message-ID: I'm so sorry for the loss of your friend, Marc. War in general is terrible, but this particular one is being needlessly brutal. On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 10:51 AM Marc Wilson wrote: > > I've despised Vlad The Invader, the smirking botoxed war-gnome, for some > time - in a distant sort of way. > > But now it's personal, and visceral, and hot. > > I learned recently that a net.friend (whom I have once met in meatspace, > many years ago) was killed by Russian soldiers while trying to escape to > Moldova with two of her friends, this time last week. > > She was on her way to Wales, to stay in a cottage owned by a mutual > friend, under the UK government's rather grudging sponsorship scheme. > > She was a *chef*, for fuck's sake, as harmless a person as you could > wish to meet (despite owning a load of big sharp knives). > > And a wonderful person to boot, with a wry sense of humour and an ... > interesting approach to the English language (her mixup of English, > Ukrainian and Russian was known as "Tashlish" in uk.rec.sheds). > > GNU Natasha Evgenyeyvna Arkangelskeyna Scherbineyna Tchebotareva (aka > Tash). > > Sad now. > > -- > If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to becca7108 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From lmblist at mikebomb.com Thu Mar 31 16:23:29 2022 From: lmblist at mikebomb.com (Michael Bauminger) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 11:23:29 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Birthday!!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <048afe3f-c1a4-a5ca-e59b-1e9259799fb3@mikebomb.com> On 3/30/2022 10:34 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > Today we celebrate the birthday of Michael Bauminger. > Thank you very much. The demands of real life have been keeping me from the list in recent years, but I still check in from time to time. Hopefully, at some point I'll be able to become more active on the list again. As always, though, WLW! -- Michael From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 16:43:34 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 10:43:34 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ukraine connection In-Reply-To: References: <5gfb4h1nnnbdklstq9e3105ngurmlrgq98@4ax.com> Message-ID: For what it's worth, you have my condolences. I'm thankful that nobody I love or care about is in the line of fire of this war. On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 9:56 AM Becca Price wrote: > I'm so sorry for the loss of your friend, Marc. > > War in general is terrible, but this particular one is being needlessly > brutal. > > On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 10:51 AM Marc Wilson > wrote: > > > > I've despised Vlad The Invader, the smirking botoxed war-gnome, for some > > time - in a distant sort of way. > > > > But now it's personal, and visceral, and hot. > > > > I learned recently that a net.friend (whom I have once met in meatspace, > > many years ago) was killed by Russian soldiers while trying to escape to > > Moldova with two of her friends, this time last week. > > > > She was on her way to Wales, to stay in a cottage owned by a mutual > > friend, under the UK government's rather grudging sponsorship scheme. > > > > She was a *chef*, for fuck's sake, as harmless a person as you could > > wish to meet (despite owning a load of big sharp knives). > > > > And a wonderful person to boot, with a wry sense of humour and an ... > > interesting approach to the English language (her mixup of English, > > Ukrainian and Russian was known as "Tashlish" in uk.rec.sheds). > > > > GNU Natasha Evgenyeyvna Arkangelskeyna Scherbineyna Tchebotareva (aka > > Tash). > > > > Sad now. > > > > -- > > If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried. > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to becca7108 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From ravenclaweric at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 16:44:51 2022 From: ravenclaweric at gmail.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 10:44:51 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 29 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No, what he went in to ask for, while making his final report and turning in his choke chain, was a retroactive promotion to Captain. He was quite surprised when Gregor had four other Auditors come in all at once, and his first thought was "My God, what have I done NOW?" On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 9:53 AM Marc Wilson wrote: > On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 12:23:11 -0500, Louann Miller > wrote: > > >On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 9:38 AM Gwynne Powell > >wrote: > > > >> > >> Did Gregor make Miles an Auditor partly to keep him under > >> control? This way he has a leash on Miles. He'd always have > >> control anyway, Emperor and all, but the Auditorship keeps > >> Miles focussed. You really don't want Miles wandering around > >> aimlessly looking for things to do. > >> > > > >I don't doubt that both of those factors were keenly in Gregor's mind. But > >also, "he's so brilliant, let's give him enough work to keep him happy." > >Maybe a further unfair tax on Vorkosigan's District, but also motivated by > >affection for Miles as well as Imperial thrift. > > > >I rarely disagree with countess Cordelia, but I do here. Miles wasn't > going > >to leave his father bereft, and incidentally drop an unwanted Countship on > >Mark that Mark was in no way qualified to handle. The little Admiral was > no > >match for home and family. > > Didn't Miles go and *ask* for the auditor's job? > -- > If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried. > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to ravenclaweric at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Mar 31 16:57:40 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 15:57:40 +0000 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ukraine connection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Marc Wilson I've despised Vlad The Invader, the smirking botoxed war-gnome, for some time - in a distant sort of way. But now it's personal, and visceral, and hot.... Gwynne: I'm so sorry about the loss of your friend. What's happening over there is beyond horrific. It's one long, vicious heartbreak. From gwynnepowell at hotmail.com Thu Mar 31 17:01:57 2022 From: gwynnepowell at hotmail.com (Gwynne Powell) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 16:01:57 +0000 Subject: [LMB] Memory - Ch 29 - Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Marc Wilson Didn't Miles go and *ask* for the auditor's job? Gwynne: Miles asked for an auditor to... well, to cover him while he investigated. Basically he wanted to wave the auditor at ImpSec and use him as a shield, so that the Auditor's authority would cover Miles while he got in amongst it all. He hadn't considered that he'd be given that authority himself. From hammersd62 at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 17:15:00 2022 From: hammersd62 at gmail.com (Stephanie Hammer) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 12:15:00 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 202, Issue 93 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Subject: Re: [LMB] Memory--Chapter Summaries Thank you so much for the summaries Gwynne. I learned new things, and so enjoyed the revisit. It was such a treat in these trying days. On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 11:23 AM wrote: > Send Lois-Bujold mailing list submissions to > lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > lois-bujold-request at lists.herald.co.uk > > You can reach the person managing the list at > lois-bujold-owner at lists.herald.co.uk > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Lois-Bujold digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Memory & tixie (Gwynne Powell) > 2. Re: Memory (Sharon Micenko) > 3. Re: OT: The Vonnegut in the Classroom (Marc Wilson) > 4. Re: An ancient empire? (Marc Wilson) > 5. Re: An ancient empire? (Marc Wilson) > 6. OT: Ukraine connection (Marc Wilson) > 7. Re: Memory - Ch 29 - Comments (Marc Wilson) > 8. Re: OT: Ukraine connection (Becca Price) > 9. Re: Birthday!!!!! (Michael Bauminger) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 11:36:12 +0000 > From: Gwynne Powell > To: "lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk" > Subject: [LMB] Memory & tixie > Message-ID: > < > SY4P282MB3844BD034D5D1723CE1D313FCEE19 at SY4P282MB3844.AUSP282.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com > > > Gwynne, > Thank you once again for your brilliant, insightful, detailed, and > extensive analysis of _Memory_.? Even after all these years, you're still > finding new details for us to savor and ponder. > All this, and tixie-ing in the best style, too! > Colossal kudos! > Jerrie > > Gwynne: Thank you for the kind words. I just ramble through each chapter, > enjoying it all. I'm often surprised at some new angle that I'd missed > previously. > And the comments and discussions on the board bring up some good points. > > Give me a day or so, I have French homework to finish tonight. I'll start > another > one soon. I'm still leaning towards ACC. But there's so many other good > choices.... > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 20:37:12 +0800 > From: Sharon Micenko > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Subject: Re: [LMB] Memory > Message-ID: <4C3E0CE1-A8C9-4DF6-83A2-DF93FC46A162 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > I?d like to say a big thank you to Gwynne as well. I really enjoyed this > read-through with all the new points of view and insights. > > Sharon > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 15:35:36 +0100 > From: Marc Wilson > To: LMB > Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: The Vonnegut in the Classroom > Message-ID: <9veb4h9qha0enta6siilj4muoms6ri2shd at 4ax.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2022 15:07:35 -0700, "A. Marina Fournier via Lois-Bujold" > wrote: > > >On Mar 30, 2022, at 1:47 PM, Carol Botteron wrote: > >> > >> ?From a Tufts University publication: > >> How do you teach one of the most challenging authors in American > literature > >> to a group of freshmen -- Kurt's grandson among them? > >> https://now.tufts.edu/articles/vonnegut-classroom > > > >Interesting article, thanks. > > > >May have been as interesting as a math class with Tom Lehrer. > > Or a physics/safecracking lesson with Feynman. > -- > Why should we take advice on sex from the pope? If he knows anything about > it, he shouldn't! > - George Bernard Shaw > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 15:37:18 +0100 > From: Marc Wilson > To: LMB > Subject: Re: [LMB] An ancient empire? > Message-ID: <24fb4h1t9nfj4huiles0moufe4e72oaavs at 4ax.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 04:07:57 +0000, "Harvey Fishman" > wrote: > > >How old is Australia? The U.S. is approaching all of 250 years old. > >Canada dates from either The British North America Act of 1867 or The > >Statute of Westminster of 1931. Few of us live in really old societies. > > My high school is older than many countries. Founded 1620. > -- > Why should we take advice on sex from the pope? If he knows anything about > it, he shouldn't! > - George Bernard Shaw > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 15:38:32 +0100 > From: Marc Wilson > To: LMB > Subject: Re: [LMB] An ancient empire? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 14:19:32 +0000, WILLIAM A WENRICH > wrote: > > >Time for the old joke: In America 100 years is a long time and 100 miles > is a short distance. > > In the USA, 100 years is a long time; in the UK, 100 miles is a long > way. > > Nowhere in the UK is more than 50 miles from the sea. > -- > Why should we take advice on sex from the pope? If he knows anything about > it, he shouldn't! > - George Bernard Shaw > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 15:51:34 +0100 > From: Marc Wilson > To: LMB > Subject: [LMB] OT: Ukraine connection > Message-ID: <5gfb4h1nnnbdklstq9e3105ngurmlrgq98 at 4ax.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I've despised Vlad The Invader, the smirking botoxed war-gnome, for some > time - in a distant sort of way. > > But now it's personal, and visceral, and hot. > > I learned recently that a net.friend (whom I have once met in meatspace, > many years ago) was killed by Russian soldiers while trying to escape to > Moldova with two of her friends, this time last week. > > She was on her way to Wales, to stay in a cottage owned by a mutual > friend, under the UK government's rather grudging sponsorship scheme. > > She was a *chef*, for fuck's sake, as harmless a person as you could > wish to meet (despite owning a load of big sharp knives). > > And a wonderful person to boot, with a wry sense of humour and an ... > interesting approach to the English language (her mixup of English, > Ukrainian and Russian was known as "Tashlish" in uk.rec.sheds). > > GNU Natasha Evgenyeyvna Arkangelskeyna Scherbineyna Tchebotareva (aka > Tash). > > Sad now. > > -- > If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 15:53:32 +0100 > From: Marc Wilson > To: LMB > Subject: Re: [LMB] Memory - Ch 29 - Comments > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 12:23:11 -0500, Louann Miller > wrote: > > >On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 9:38 AM Gwynne Powell > >wrote: > > > >> > >> Did Gregor make Miles an Auditor partly to keep him under > >> control? This way he has a leash on Miles. He'd always have > >> control anyway, Emperor and all, but the Auditorship keeps > >> Miles focussed. You really don't want Miles wandering around > >> aimlessly looking for things to do. > >> > > > >I don't doubt that both of those factors were keenly in Gregor's mind. But > >also, "he's so brilliant, let's give him enough work to keep him happy." > >Maybe a further unfair tax on Vorkosigan's District, but also motivated by > >affection for Miles as well as Imperial thrift. > > > >I rarely disagree with countess Cordelia, but I do here. Miles wasn't > going > >to leave his father bereft, and incidentally drop an unwanted Countship on > >Mark that Mark was in no way qualified to handle. The little Admiral was > no > >match for home and family. > > Didn't Miles go and *ask* for the auditor's job? > -- > If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 10:55:53 -0400 > From: Becca Price > To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold." > > Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: Ukraine connection > Message-ID: > < > CAJH0-vMkU_Bs3H2CievnAXCGTEXu_tktWQ6VY_-7w7evdzrXMg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I'm so sorry for the loss of your friend, Marc. > > War in general is terrible, but this particular one is being needlessly > brutal. > > On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 10:51 AM Marc Wilson > wrote: > > > > I've despised Vlad The Invader, the smirking botoxed war-gnome, for some > > time - in a distant sort of way. > > > > But now it's personal, and visceral, and hot. > > > > I learned recently that a net.friend (whom I have once met in meatspace, > > many years ago) was killed by Russian soldiers while trying to escape to > > Moldova with two of her friends, this time last week. > > > > She was on her way to Wales, to stay in a cottage owned by a mutual > > friend, under the UK government's rather grudging sponsorship scheme. > > > > She was a *chef*, for fuck's sake, as harmless a person as you could > > wish to meet (despite owning a load of big sharp knives). > > > > And a wonderful person to boot, with a wry sense of humour and an ... > > interesting approach to the English language (her mixup of English, > > Ukrainian and Russian was known as "Tashlish" in uk.rec.sheds). > > > > GNU Natasha Evgenyeyvna Arkangelskeyna Scherbineyna Tchebotareva (aka > > Tash). > > > > Sad now. > > > > -- > > If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried. > > > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to becca7108 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 11:23:29 -0400 > From: Michael Bauminger > To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > Subject: Re: [LMB] Birthday!!!!! > Message-ID: <048afe3f-c1a4-a5ca-e59b-1e9259799fb3 at mikebomb.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > On 3/30/2022 10:34 AM, Gwynne Powell wrote: > > > > Today we celebrate the birthday of Michael Bauminger. > > > > Thank you very much. The demands of real life have been keeping me from > the list in recent years, but I still check in from time to time. > Hopefully, at some point I'll be able to become more active on the list > again. > > As always, though, WLW! > -- > Michael > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 202, Issue 93 > ******************************************** > From tlambs1138 at charter.net Thu Mar 31 17:50:05 2022 From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 09:50:05 -0700 Subject: [LMB] the cost of war Message-ID: <038c01d8451f$6007db60$20179220$@charter.net> From: Marc Wilson I've despised Vlad The Invader, the smirking botoxed war-gnome, for some time - in a distant sort of way. But now it's personal, and visceral, and hot.... --This is horrible! (wishing the plague of a thousand locusts upon the man who caused this). Jean Lamb tlambs1138 at charter.net https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20 From Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net Thu Mar 31 17:51:35 2022 From: Robert_A_Woodward at comcast.net (Robert Woodward) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 09:51:35 -0700 Subject: [LMB] Lois-Bujold Digest, Vol 202, Issue 93 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <530A97D0-BE05-493E-982D-F124E496C4E3@comcast.net> > On Mar 31, 2022, at 9:15 AM, Stephanie Hammer wrote: > > Subject: Re: [LMB] Memory--Chapter Summaries > > Thank you so much for the summaries Gwynne. I learned new things, and so > enjoyed the revisit. It was such a treat in these trying days. > You didn?t delete the text of the digest, so the whole thing was repeated. Please remember to delete as much of the digest as possible when replying to a message in the digest. "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement." Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?----------------------------------------------------- Robert Woodward robertaw at drizzle.com From fishman at panix.com Thu Mar 31 17:57:12 2022 From: fishman at panix.com (Harvey Fishman) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 16:57:12 +0000 Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? In-Reply-To: <24fb4h1t9nfj4huiles0moufe4e72oaavs@4ax.com> References: <24fb4h1t9nfj4huiles0moufe4e72oaavs@4ax.com> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Marc Wilson" To: "LMB" Bcc: fishman at panix.com Sent: 3/31/2022 10:37:18 AM Subject: Re: [LMB] An ancient empire? >On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 04:07:57 +0000, "Harvey Fishman" >wrote: > >My high school is older than many countries. Founded 1620. >-- >Why should we take advice on sex from the pope? If he knows anything about it, he shouldn't! >- George Bernard Shaw > >-- >The old school, eh? Harvey > From adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com Thu Mar 31 19:19:18 2022 From: adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com (adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 18:19:18 +0000 Subject: [LMB] ot: free romance books - today only! Message-ID: For today only (March 31), you can stuff your e-reader (Kindle, Nook, Kobo, Apple Books or Google Play) with over 750 FREE romance reads. Check out the selections being offered by hundreds of talented authors, all searchable by category. https://www.romancebookworms.com ? Jerrie From litalex at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 19:48:50 2022 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 14:48:50 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ukraine connection In-Reply-To: <5gfb4h1nnnbdklstq9e3105ngurmlrgq98@4ax.com> References: <5gfb4h1nnnbdklstq9e3105ngurmlrgq98@4ax.com> Message-ID: <9A1F8CEA-30EB-4062-B3C5-8CEC0E9F04FC@gmail.com> Hello, > On Mar 31, 2022, at 10:51, Marc Wilson wrote: > > I've despised Vlad The Invader, the smirking botoxed war-gnome, for some > time - in a distant sort of way. > > But now it's personal, and visceral, and hot. I?m sorry for your loss. And yeah, this whole war is horrible and heart-breaking. little Alex From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 20:08:14 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 14:08:14 -0500 Subject: [LMB] the cost of war In-Reply-To: <038c01d8451f$6007db60$20179220$@charter.net> References: <038c01d8451f$6007db60$20179220$@charter.net> Message-ID: Regarding Vlad the Monster, there is no hole in Hell deep enough for this SOB but I sincerely wish he goes there real soon. On Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 11:50 AM Jean Lamb wrote: > From: Marc Wilson > > I've despised Vlad The Invader, the smirking botoxed war-gnome, for some > time - in a distant sort of way. > But now it's personal, and visceral, and hot.... > > > --This is horrible! (wishing the plague of a thousand locusts upon the man > who caused this). > > > Jean Lamb > tlambs1138 at charter.net > https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Lamb/e/B00IR0YO20 > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 20:24:08 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 14:24:08 -0500 Subject: [LMB] An ancient empire? In-Reply-To: References: <24fb4h1t9nfj4huiles0moufe4e72oaavs@4ax.com> Message-ID: The question is, how many generations does it take for an activity to become tradition? In the United States I'd say at least between three to five generations. Then there are the cultural traditions like Christmas and easter which actually predate Christianity. So on Barrayar we have those political traditions that probably evolved as a way to avoid bloodshed, and the ancient traditions that came before Barrayar was colonized. On Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 11:57 AM Harvey Fishman wrote: > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Marc Wilson" > To: "LMB" > Bcc: fishman at panix.com > Sent: 3/31/2022 10:37:18 AM > Subject: Re: [LMB] An ancient empire? > > >On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 04:07:57 +0000, "Harvey Fishman" > >wrote: > > > >My high school is older than many countries. Founded 1620. > >-- > >Why should we take advice on sex from the pope? If he knows anything > about it, he shouldn't! > >- George Bernard Shaw > > > >-- > >The old school, eh? > Harvey > > > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From pouncer at aol.com Thu Mar 31 20:26:13 2022 From: pouncer at aol.com (Pouncer) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 14:26:13 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Introducing the Auditors References: Message-ID: Nobody does what Gwynne does as well as Gwynne does. I dare hope the last one is not the last one. That said, let me let her take a break. Let's do a close read on a much neglected, and hard to find, work -- Borders of Infinity (The Framing Sequence). The three novellas in the collection of _BoI_ include the Mountains of Mourning, Labrynth, and of course Borders of Infinity. And these have been omnibuss'd into other collections more or less in the sequence of Miles's age, in Young Miles and others. ( I leave the reference of which novella to which omnibus as a homework exercise.) But UN-collected elsewhere is a framing sequence which serves Doylistically as a way to tie the tales together, and much more importantly, in a Watsonian way, to introduce the concept of the Imperial Auditor. I propose we take a deep dive into the details of the frame. Who's up for it? ... "You have a visitor, Lieutenant Vorkosigan..." -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 20:29:12 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 14:29:12 -0500 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ukraine connection In-Reply-To: <9A1F8CEA-30EB-4062-B3C5-8CEC0E9F04FC@gmail.com> References: <5gfb4h1nnnbdklstq9e3105ngurmlrgq98@4ax.com> <9A1F8CEA-30EB-4062-B3C5-8CEC0E9F04FC@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm sorry for the loss of Tash. She see med like a neat person to know. And I also dispise that POS Russain madman and I hope he rots in Hell real soon. On Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 1:49 PM Alex Kwan wrote: > Hello, > > > On Mar 31, 2022, at 10:51, Marc Wilson wrote: > > > > I've despised Vlad The Invader, the smirking botoxed war-gnome, for some > > time - in a distant sort of way. > > > > But now it's personal, and visceral, and hot. > > I?m sorry for your loss. And yeah, this whole war is horrible and > heart-breaking. > > little Alex > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From rcrcoll6 at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 20:33:35 2022 From: rcrcoll6 at gmail.com (Raymond Collins) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 14:33:35 -0500 Subject: [LMB] Introducing the Auditors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds intriguing. I'm rereading "Cryoburn" which seems to be a neglected novel too. But, I got my Tradeback Baen book and it's been awhile since I last read it. On Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 2:26 PM Pouncer via Lois-Bujold < lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk> wrote: > > Nobody does what Gwynne does as well as Gwynne does. > I dare hope the last one is not the last one. > > That said, let me let her take a break. Let's do > a close read on a much neglected, and hard to find, > work -- Borders of Infinity (The Framing Sequence). > > The three novellas in the collection of _BoI_ include > the Mountains of Mourning, Labrynth, and of course > Borders of Infinity. And these have been omnibuss'd > into other collections more or less in the sequence > of Miles's age, in Young Miles and others. ( I leave > the reference of which novella to which omnibus as > a homework exercise.) But UN-collected elsewhere is > a framing sequence which serves Doylistically as a > way to tie the tales together, and much more > importantly, in a Watsonian way, to introduce the > concept of the Imperial Auditor. > > I propose we take a deep dive into the details of > the frame. > > Who's up for it? > > ... "You have a visitor, Lieutenant Vorkosigan..." > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > https://www.avg.com > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From kawyle at att.net Thu Mar 31 21:46:52 2022 From: kawyle at att.net (Karen A. Wyle) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 20:46:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [LMB] Memory In-Reply-To: <4C3E0CE1-A8C9-4DF6-83A2-DF93FC46A162@gmail.com> References: <4C3E0CE1-A8C9-4DF6-83A2-DF93FC46A162@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1077437616.376143.1648759612494@mail.yahoo.com> I was also hugely impressed with Gwynne's summaries and comments, and enjoyed the novel that much more in retrospect. Karen On Thursday, March 31, 2022, 08:37:31 AM EDT, Sharon Micenko wrote: I?d like to say a big thank you to Gwynne as well. I really enjoyed this read-through with all the new points of view and insights. Sharon -- Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to kawyle at att.net Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold From litalex at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 22:09:09 2022 From: litalex at gmail.com (Alex Kwan) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 17:09:09 -0400 Subject: [LMB] Memory & tixie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, > On Mar 30, 2022, at 21:43, adkinslawfirm at mindspring.com wrote: > > Gwynne, > > Thank you once again for your brilliant, insightful, detailed, and extensive analysis of _Memory_. Even after all these years, you're still finding new details for us to savor and ponder. Yes, thank you for the in-depth reading! Very astute commentary. little Alex From matt.msg at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 22:45:21 2022 From: matt.msg at gmail.com (Matthew George) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 17:45:21 -0400 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ukraine connection In-Reply-To: References: <5gfb4h1nnnbdklstq9e3105ngurmlrgq98@4ax.com> <9A1F8CEA-30EB-4062-B3C5-8CEC0E9F04FC@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm very sorry. I know that even constructive actions don't diminish the pain of loss. But write to your senator - write to your representative - and make clear that you wish your nation to do everything it can to punish Russia, and possibly help the people of the Ukraine, whether that's lowering the standards for taking in refugees or sending humanitarian aid. We can't help very much, but we can do something - and feeling helpless only makes everything so much worse. Matt G. On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 3:29 PM Raymond Collins wrote: > I'm sorry for the loss of Tash. She see med like a neat person to know. And > I also dispise that POS Russain madman and I hope he rots in Hell real > soon. > > On Thu, Mar 31, 2022, 1:49 PM Alex Kwan wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > > On Mar 31, 2022, at 10:51, Marc Wilson wrote: > > > > > > I've despised Vlad The Invader, the smirking botoxed war-gnome, for > some > > > time - in a distant sort of way. > > > > > > But now it's personal, and visceral, and hot. > > > > I?m sorry for your loss. And yeah, this whole war is horrible and > > heart-breaking. > > > > little Alex > > -- > > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to rcrcoll6 at gmail.com > > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > > > -- > Lois-Bujold mailing list message sent to matt.msg at gmail.com > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk > http://lists.herald.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lois-bujold > From wembleyware at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 23:35:14 2022 From: wembleyware at gmail.com (Sharon Micenko) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 06:35:14 +0800 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ukraine connection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I?m very sorry to hear of your loss, Marc. As you can see, I have a Ukrainian surname and up until a year ago my F-I-L still remembered his family?s flight from the Soviets at the end of WW11. It?s a sad thing to say that I?m really glad he didn?t live to see this. My M-I-L is still alive, though. We don?t have close family in Ukraine, but that?s because they were shot or starved to death during the 1920s. That man has made a big mistake, and millions of people are paying for it. Sharon From smith.martin.music at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 23:39:30 2022 From: smith.martin.music at gmail.com (Martin Smith ) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 23:39:30 +0100 Subject: [LMB] OT: Ukraine connection In-Reply-To: <5gfb4h1nnnbdklstq9e3105ngurmlrgq98@4ax.com> References: <5gfb4h1nnnbdklstq9e3105ngurmlrgq98@4ax.com> Message-ID: <000401d84550$300ae430$9020ac90$@gmail.com> My sincere condolences for your loss. Martin -----Original Message----- From: Lois-Bujold On Behalf Of Marc Wilson Sent: 31 March 2022 15:52 To: LMB Subject: [LMB] OT: Ukraine connection I've despised Vlad The Invader, the smirking botoxed war-gnome, for some time - in a distant sort of way. But now it's pers