[LMB] Ivan's Aunties

t_neill t_neill t_neill at hotmail.com
Wed May 16 21:52:15 BST 2012


> > Ivan confuses me.  Or rather, his title does.  Sometimes he's Lord Ivan and sometimes he's Lord 
> > Vorpatril. Mark is adamant about not being Lord Vorkosigan because that title belongs to the Count's Heir.  Ivan isn't any Count's Heir, 
> > so why Lord Vorpatril?  
> 
> Perhaps someone's heir died, and Ivan became his heir?  Is this a clue?  Or perhaps Gregor made him Lord Vorpatril by fiat.  Or is he lying to non-Barrayarans for a practical purpose - like Miles becoming Admiral Naismith?
> Elizabeth
>
 
Nope, no one died for Ivan to become a Count's Heir.  I think his father is introduced to Cordelia as Captain Lord Vorpatril and then Ivan's referred to as Lord Vorpatril even as a baby.
 
After having re-read a few more of the books, and seeing what's done with Cordelia's title which at one point shifted from the same speaker on the same page, I think it's like what Barrayaran's do with "Aunt" and "Uncle"--That's just how it's done.
 
Alys is not Miles's Aunt. She's his first cousin once removed (by marriage).  Aral is also Ivan's first cousin once removed, not his Uncle.  And yet consistently they are referred to as aunt and uncle and refer to Miles and Ivan as nephew and Alys calls herself Miles's aunt.  So on Barrayar, an elder cousin is referred to as an Aunt or Uncle.  Or at least in this family they are.
 
Generally, amongst functionaries such as Gregor's majordomo and the man who screens his calls, I would expect the most formal forms of address. But even there we see shifts between Ivan, Lord Ivan and Lord Vorpatril (in the same paragraph, even!) so I suspect that for a Lord Vorlastname who is *not* a Count's Heir, that it's the same way--things vary and both titles of address are correct.  No one on Barrayar calls Miles "Lord Miles" after his grandfather dies.  But all sorts of people call Ivan both "Lord Ivan" and "Lord Vorpatril" so I think both must be correct.  (And call Cordelia, Lady Cordelia, Countess Cordelia and Countess Vorkosigan.)
 
Lois has said there are Lord Vorlastnames that aren't Heirs and I suspect Padma Vorpatril might have got his because of his mother the Princess.
 
It bugs the heck out of my Heraldic little soul but that's *my* problem, not Lois's.
 
T Neill
 		 	   		  


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