[LMB] re-reading -- and crossing over Shax / Ekaterin discussions

Andrea clevergracie at hotmail.com
Fri Jun 23 18:03:50 BST 2017


I like the idea that Miles and Ekaterin are both Shax nerds. And I think that a strong sense of responsibility and feeling of obligation to clean up messes is definitely part of what draws them together. I think that when a person has built a life around being responsible it is difficult to relate to people who don't have a sense of obligation.
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Today's Topics:

1. re-reading -- and crossing over Shax / Ekaterin discussions
(pouncer at aol.com<mailto:pouncer at aol.com>)
2. Re: re-reading -- and crossing over Shax / Ekaterin
discussions (Walter Bushell)
3. Re: re-reading -- and crossing over Shax / Ekaterin
discussions (Walter Bushell)
4. Re: Group Read of Richard III 1.2 (Damien Sullivan)
5. Re: Being Betan (Damien Sullivan)
6. Re: Being Betan (Karen Hunt)
7. Bujold rec re. Wonder Woman! (Katherine Collett)


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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 10:24:02 -0400
From: pouncer at aol.com<mailto:pouncer at aol.com>
Subject: [LMB] re-reading -- and crossing over Shax / Ekaterin
discussions
To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk<mailto:lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>, litalex at gmail.com<mailto:litalex at gmail.com>,
hedwig52 at comcast.net<mailto:hedwig52 at comcast.net>, m.dolbear at lineone.net<mailto:m.dolbear at lineone.net>, thefabmadamem at yahoo.com<mailto:thefabmadamem at yahoo.com>,
sylviamcivers at gmail.com<mailto:sylviamcivers at gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15cd0304078-2e4e-22243 at webprd-m76.mail.aol.com<mailto:15cd0304078-2e4e-22243 at webprd-m76.mail.aol.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Walter Bushell links this:



http://www.tor.com/series/rereading-the-vorkosigan-saga/



Which I resist lest I find myself emulating this:



https://xkcd.com/386/

OKAY, so. We are creeping along with Richard III and
reaching a pivot point in the character analysis of Ekaterin.

Just past Tien's death and the moment of dawning
romance between Ekaterin and Miles, Ekaterin volunteers
the an opinion of her situation. "Time is out of joint".
Miles twigs hard. He doesn't immediately respond, but
he turns around about a chapter later and quotes the
Hamlet bit again in another scene.

I often send the little Pouncers off with the admonishment
to seek out new adventures with new friends "who are the
same kind of crazy as you". History fiends, math geeks,
comic book fans, whatever kind of specialized interest is
available. Just a good place to start.

The Hamlet quote may say a bit about Vorish culture
generally. But if so I'm not sure Miles would have
reacted quite as strongly. I suspect Ekaterin displays
a particular "kind of crazy" that Miles knows himself
to share that is NOT any more common among the
Vor (High, Old, or nominal) than among proles,
Betans, or "Galactics". It's a fandom, or a fannish
sub-cult, not a mundane and required part of the
received and instructed dominant worldview.

Maybe. On the other hand, people do quote
quotes without actually knowing the sources and
contexts. I suppose it may depend on whether or
not the cited remark implies context and uncited
lines. In this case, it is fate's "Curse'd spite, that
I was born to set it right" that REALLY affects
Ekaterin's situation. She's putting right all of
Tien's failings and mistakes. Cleaning up the mess.
Just as Miles as auditor cleans up messes and
as Cordelia describes the military, generally, as
responsible to clean up the messes made by
politicians.

I'm making much too much of it I'm sure. But
since we've been reticent to continue with either
current threads on Shax or Kat maybe a braided
consideration of the two will draw interest...

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 13:48:39 -0400
From: Walter Bushell <proto at panix.com<mailto:proto at panix.com>>
Subject: Re: [LMB] re-reading -- and crossing over Shax / Ekaterin
discussions
To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold."
<lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk<mailto:lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>>
Message-ID: <B41C8BE5-BE1B-418D-B036-093B01577BF7 at panix.com<mailto:B41C8BE5-BE1B-418D-B036-093B01577BF7 at panix.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8


> On Jun 22, 2017, at 10:24 AM, pouncer at aol.com<mailto:pouncer at aol.com> wrote:
>
> "Time is out of joint".
> Miles twigs hard.

The time is out of joint?O curs?d spite, That ever I was born to set it right!

Somehow this leads to the dinner party.
--
Sufficient to the weevil is the day thereof.








------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 13:59:00 -0400
From: Walter Bushell <proto at panix.com<mailto:proto at panix.com>>
Subject: Re: [LMB] re-reading -- and crossing over Shax / Ekaterin
discussions
To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold."
<lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk<mailto:lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>>
Message-ID: <605B1A5B-7BF7-42F6-8BC1-075AAB2CEAD4 at panix.com<mailto:605B1A5B-7BF7-42F6-8BC1-075AAB2CEAD4 at panix.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8


> On Jun 22, 2017, at 10:24 AM, pouncer at aol.com<mailto:pouncer at aol.com> wrote:
>
> "Time is out of joint".
> Miles twigs hard. He doesn't immediately respond, but
> he turns around about a chapter later and quotes the
> Hamlet bit again in another scene.

Internally quotes Ekaterine saying that. He figures he?s going
to have to wait until Tien is buried at least which apparently
is, for him, a long time.

--
Sufficient to the weevil is the day thereof.








------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 16:30:02 -0400
From: Damien Sullivan <phoenix at mindstalk.net<mailto:phoenix at mindstalk.net>>
Subject: Re: [LMB] Group Read of Richard III 1.2
To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold."
<lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk<mailto:lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>>
Message-ID: <20170622203002.GA23988 at mindstalk.net<mailto:20170622203002.GA23988 at mindstalk.net>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 12:42:12PM -0500, Louann Miller wrote:
> For all that Miles loves the play Richard III and identified with
> Crookback, we've never seen any sign that he is a Ricardian. (One who
> believes that Richard was libeled by Tudor historians and did not do most
> of the evil things attributed to him, especially having his nephews
> killed.) I guess if your earliest memories include a Wicked Grandfather, a

Whether or not he did villainous[1] things to become king, he seems to have
been rather progressive and competent *as* king.

[1] And are those more villanous than anyone else who thinks it's cool
to start a war just so he can become king?

-xx- Damien X-)


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 16:48:13 -0400
From: Damien Sullivan <phoenix at mindstalk.net<mailto:phoenix at mindstalk.net>>
Subject: Re: [LMB] Being Betan
To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold."
<lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk<mailto:lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>>
Message-ID: <20170622204813.GB23988 at mindstalk.net<mailto:20170622204813.GB23988 at mindstalk.net>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 11:09:10AM +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote:

> And much of her attitude is Betan superiority that she'd probably feel towards just
> about any non-Betan world, in one form or another. Even though she never did
> fit in on Beta and would be totally miserable if she went back there.
>
> I have to say that the attitude of foreign wives to Barrayar is a lot more accepting
> than the attitude of Haut wives married to Ghem; even though they're still within
> their own culture we see bitter resentment there. One tried to tear the whole
> Cetagandan Empire apart, and another was still seething after a century.

You can't just statistics from stories. Or, "anecdotes aren't data".
Haut wives might well resent being ghemmed, but it's not like Lois would
tell lots of stories about content ones. Cordelia seems to have been a
happy enough Betan before meeting Aral and become a crash victim of
therapy and state secrets. We see Cordelia at the moment of transition,
we see the haut-wives who push back.

> Which would be better: to be an outsider wed to a Barrayaran, or a Haut woman
> married to a Ghem lord?

Depends on what you value, and the Barrayaran, and the point in
history. Xav and Aral are particularly good Barrayaran men to be wed
to. Imagine falling for some more charming version of Tien. Or Serg,
or Ges...

-xx- Damien X-)


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 16:57:48 -0400
From: Karen Hunt <huntkc at gmail.com<mailto:huntkc at gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [LMB] Being Betan
To: "Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold."
<lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk<mailto:lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>>
Message-ID:
<CABsO85=R+jDs=q13NsP=eqKMLkGHQvEjmg4LPtVLrRvyyy5Lyw at mail.gmail.com<mailto:CABsO85=R+jDs=q13NsP=eqKMLkGHQvEjmg4LPtVLrRvyyy5Lyw at mail.gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Damien Sullivan <phoenix at mindstalk.net<mailto:phoenix at mindstalk.net>>
wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 11:09:10AM +0000, Gwynne Powell wrote:
>
> > And much of her attitude is Betan superiority that she'd probably feel
> towards just
> > about any non-Betan world, in one form or another. Even though she never
> did
> > fit in on Beta and would be totally miserable if she went back there.
> >
> > I have to say that the attitude of foreign wives to Barrayar is a lot
> more accepting
> > than the attitude of Haut wives married to Ghem; even though they're
> still within
> > their own culture we see bitter resentment there. One tried to tear the
> whole
> > Cetagandan Empire apart, and another was still seething after a century.
>
> You can't just statistics from stories. Or, "anecdotes aren't data".
> Haut wives might well resent being ghemmed, but it's not like Lois would
> tell lots of stories about content ones. Cordelia seems to have been a
> happy enough Betan before meeting Aral and become a crash victim of
> therapy and state secrets. We see Cordelia at the moment of transition,
> we see the haut-wives who push back.
>

The phrase we have at work is "the plural of anecdote isn't data", which
resulted in the neologistic plural "anecdata".

I'm not sure she was that happy on Beta. Gentleman Jole points out that she
and the other Astronomical Survey folks were generally misfits on Beta in
the first place.

It is good that Beta has a useful way of handling at least some of its
misfits (everywhere will have a few). I'd bet some of the others become
Victor Rotha equivalents and maybe a few just become colonists elsewhere.


> > Which would be better: to be an outsider wed to a Barrayaran, or a Haut
> woman
> > married to a Ghem lord?
>
> Depends on what you value, and the Barrayaran, and the point in
> history. Xav and Aral are particularly good Barrayaran men to be wed
> to. Imagine falling for some more charming version of Tien. Or Serg,
> or Ges...
>

More charming version of Tien: you mean Cordelia's first guy? He looks like
a real winner, too.

I'm not overthrilled by the picture of falling for a Captain Mehta or a
Steady Freddie either, though I'll admit the mass-murderer aspect is
missing from those two.

I'm afraid jerks happen anywhere, though the special qualities of Serg and
Ges require a level of societal dysfunction that one hopes most places can
avoid.

Karen Hunt


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 22:06:33 -0400
From: Katherine Collett <kcollett at hamilton.edu<mailto:kcollett at hamilton.edu>>
Subject: [LMB] Bujold rec re. Wonder Woman!
To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk<mailto:lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Message-ID: <FD9BAF02-3B1C-4D65-9812-49C9EA9ED33E at hamilton.edu<mailto:FD9BAF02-3B1C-4D65-9812-49C9EA9ED33E at hamilton.edu>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Barrayar is on a list of what to read after seeing Wonder Woman:
https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2017/06/20-books-to-read-if-you-loved-watching-wonder-woma.html

Katherine

Sent from my iPhone

------------------------------

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