[LMB] TSK - Echoes

Eric Oppen ravenclaweric at gmail.com
Mon Jul 22 19:34:05 BST 2019

The thing was, the "dark satanic mills" in Victorian England WERE
progress!  Prior to the Industrial Revolution, the surplus rural population
had only a few options, and none of them were good.  After the factories
were there, they could go and work in them.

Also, the Industrial Revolution made a lot of things more accessible to the
poor, like making clothes cheaper.

Most of the sneering at factories was by people who were too rich to have
any idea of what life was like for the real poor.  They would rhapsodize
about how much better life was in the country.  Which it was, _if you owned
land!_  Tenants, OTOH, were at the mercy of their landlords, and life in
those quaint, picturesque country cottages was often pretty hellish.

On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 10:37 AM Pat Mathews <mathews55 at msn.com> wrote:

> Yes. Dark Lord have to be *motivated*!!! When you look at the "dark,
> satanic mills" Tolkein's junior Dark Lord was running, you can tell he
> probably thought it it as !Progress!
> ________________________________
> From: lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk <
> lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Eric Oppen <
> ravenclaweric at gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 12:42 AM
> To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <
> lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [LMB] TSK - Echoes
> The whole "Dark Lord" thing always reminds me of Zoroastrianism.  In
> Zoroastrian belief, you have the good lord, Ahura Mazda (or Ormazd in
> modern Persian) and the evil lord, Ahriman (I disremember his name in Old
> Persian and am too lazy to look it up; it's late here.)  These two powers,
> of equal power but opposite alignment and goals, strive endlessly for
> victory and domination over the whole world.
> For an interesting look at what happens when things get too far out of
> balance, try* Villains by Necessity,* by Eve Forward.  In there, you have a
> fairly-standard fantasy world, only one where Good has so thoroughly won
> that the universe itself is going off-balance.  So a bunch of evil
> characters (an assassin, a Dark Knight, and some others---I can't remember,
> offhand, I haven't seen the book in years and wish they'd either reprint it
> or make it available on Kindle) have to set out on a quest to restore evil
> to the world before things go really unpleasant.
> And in the *Warhammer Fantasy* and* 40,000* worlds, the Ruinous Powers of
> Chaos themselves embody things that we can't do without.  Khorne is the
> angry, murderous god of war and violence---but even the holiest paladin
> powers him up a little every time he slays a monster.  Grandfather Nurgle
> embodies decay and illness---but without those things, life itself would be
> impossible.  Slaanesh, the hermaphroditic god of pleasures, has many
> orgiastic followers in his cults---but even the most devoutly married
> couple power him up a little when they're having relations, even for the
> goal of having a baby.  And Tzeentch, the god of chaos and change, is also
> necessary---without change, all would become stasis.
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 11:50 PM Gwynne Powell <gwynnepowell at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > From: John Lennard <john.c.lennard at gmail.com>
> >
> > Howard: So malices aren't evil [?]
> >
> > John: Correct, and the case comprehends Lois's stated intents as well as
> > theology and philosophy.
> > In TSK, Lois is systematically reworking tropes found in Tolkien and
> later
> > debased by his less talented imitators, and one such is the Dark Lord,
> as a
> > singular source of evil whose destruction means the End of Evil and a
> > universal Happy Ever After.
> > One major problem with this is why the Dark Lord is so invertedly wicked
> > ("Evil, be thou my good.", as Shakespeare has it.) Why does Lucifer
> rebel?
> > Why is Sauron bad? It's the Origin of Evil question, potent in theology
> as
> > the Manichaean Heresy and Boethian orthodoxy. To choose to be bad, that
> is
> > "Evil". But who does so choose?
> >
> > Gwynne: One thing that depresses me about most evil overlords is that
> > they're
> > so small, in their ambitions. Yes, they want to take over the world, etc
> > etc, but...
> > then what? They have no reason for doing it except to bounce around
> > gloating.
> >
> > Now, I don't mind a good gloat, I've been known to do it myself. But they
> > don't
> > seem to plan beyond that.
> >
> > Surely it'd be a greater challenge, and achievement, to create something
> > great?
> > Make and maintain a wonderful society where people are happy and strong.
> > Cure
> > something; invent, or sponsor the inventors, of amazing things. Be a
> > patron for
> > artists, musicians and writers. Build a wonderful world and society. Set
> > it up so that
> > it will keep on going for a good long time.
> >
> > But no, they just want to grab and hold and destroy, leaving nothing of
> > note behind
> > them but ash and misery. All their power, all their ability and strength,
> > and it's
> > achieved nothing. Such sadly small ambitions, when they could have been
> > truly great.
> > --
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> > Lois-Bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
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> >
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