[LMB] TSK - Echoes

Pat Mathews mathews55 at msn.com
Tue Jul 23 15:43:12 BST 2019

Mismanaged, Eric? Their Sassenach overlords stole everything not nailed down and a lot of things that were, stripped Ireland down to the bare bones, and in classic overlord manner, then blamed the Irish for their poverty, backwardness, lack of education (having closed all their schools) etc-tiresome-cetera.

The Scots, now, they did it to themselves. Or their lairds, wanting to be Lords rather than clan chiefs, did it to them.

The combination did much to populate 17th and 18th Century America, to our advantage.

Patricia Mathews, nee Shaw.
From: lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk <lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk> on behalf of Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 10:31 PM
To: Discussion of the works of Lois McMaster Bujold. <lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [LMB] TSK - Echoes

The Scottish enclosures started before the Industrial Revolution did; they
happened because the lairds found out that sheep were more profitable than
crofters.  (And my half-Scottish-and-darn-proud-of-it mother used to say
that coming between a Scot and silver was not something to be done
lightly.)  As for Ireland, the place had been horribly mismanaged by
everybody involved for a long time, but what precipitated things was the
potato famine.  There had always also been more children born in rural
areas than there was farmland for; prior to the Industrial Revolution, the
options were emigration, the army (for men and those who could pass as
male) and prostitution (for women.)  My own paternal ancestors left Norway
because, as younger children, they were not going to inherit the family

For modern examples of "Dark Lords" who do not/did not think of themselves
as "dark," look no further than North Korea.  The Kims run that country
like a combination of Oceania in *Nineteen Eighty-Four* (without the
telescreens; they're too poor to rig those up) and Genua in *Witches Abroad*.
"The Dear Leader wants you to be Happy.  If you are not Happy, we will
throw you into a re-education camp where you will be made to be Happy.
Serve the Dear Leader.  The Dear Leader is your friend."  All Communist
regimes had this to some extent, but the Koreans took it far past anybody

On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 8:59 PM Damien Sullivan <phoenix at mindstalk.net>

> On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 01:34:05PM -0500, Eric Oppen wrote:
> > The thing was, the "dark satanic mills" in Victorian England WERE
> > progress!  Prior to the Industrial Revolution, the surplus rural
> population
> > had only a few options, and none of them were good.  After the factories
> The Industrial Revolution was partly powered by actively reducing the
> options of the rural population.  Enclosing common land for a lord's
> sheep and *making* people 'surplus'.  You don't get to destroy someone's
> life and then claim credit for giving them new options... which were
> pretty crappy anyway until a lot of social pushback by reformers to
> improve labor and environmental conditions.
> Not to mention all the pollution.  Even rural England became so filthy
> that the pepper moth visibly evolved in response, and while LotR was
> being revised 4000 people died in the Great Smog of 1952.
> Yes, if you stand back far enough and long enough there was progress.
> But if I steal $10,000 from you and make $20,000 and give you back
> $5,000, are you going to be happy and call that progress?
> > Also, the Industrial Revolution made a lot of things more accessible to
> the
> > poor, like making clothes cheaper.
> And gin, making alcoholism cheaper.
> > about how much better life was in the country.  Which it was, _if you
> owned
> > land!_
> Or had decent access to land.
> > Tenants, OTOH, were at the mercy of their landlords, and life in
> Yes, and exactly that 'mercy' kicked people off the land, to be at the
> mercy of factory employers instead, with cheaper clothes but worse air.
> -xx- Damien X-)
> --
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