[LMB] OT: COVID-19 notes

Tidsel tidsel at protonmail.com
Sat Apr 18 11:06:48 BST 2020


First I have to say that I am not American and so speak like an outsider. That said, the restrictions are much the same here in the UK, so I think I can comment.

You raise a number of very important points, and well worth discussing.

The idea is that if people go out and buy things that are not essential, there are a lot more people in the shops and everywhere, and therefore a lot more danger of infection.

The garden example I do not understand, but sometimes politicians do not get it right the first time, or they need to flex their political muscles. And sometimes neighbors get nitpicking and self-righteous..

I should say that I have the heart and soul of an anarchist. Even so, I have absolutely no problem with saying that the rights of free people to assembly and the rest of it can - and should - be suspended for the duration of this pandemic. It is pretty much as in other crises as for instance war or natural catastrophes, normal rules cannot apply.

I think maybe in the US many people are more individualistic, while in the UK and Scandinavia many people have a strong feeling of standing together as a society. One is not 'better' or 'worse' than the other, but you can say that in some situations one is better than the other.

In this particular situation, I would vote for the standing together, every time. When the actions of other people have such a direct impact on the life - and death - of others, you are talking about conflicting freedoms, where the freedom of one can mean no freedom for the other. You then have to weigh whose freedom is the more important.

You said:
> People keep saying that the social distancing is to save lives. Lowering the peak will help to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed but the area under the curves is the same.

Not quite. A low curve means fewer dead people at a particular time. Keeping the curve flat means saving a lot of lives. People can get help, and meanwhile intense work on testing, vaccine and medications that can help is being done in a great many places. We buy time, and save lives.

> When I said that COVID-19 was not an apocalyptic pandemic like The Stand. I was right. The total expected deaths keep going down. I believe that keeping people locked up for a long period of time may well cause a depression. People die because of depressions.

Well, here we are well over 10.000 dead at this point, with over a 1000 dying day at this point, because the effect of this very late in the day lock down is not showing yet.. To them, and their families, and the nation as whole,  this is apocalyptic enough, I assure you..

The reason the number of deaths is going down in the US is exactly because of the lock down and the resulting flat curve. It is giving a lot of high risk people a chance to survive. Pardon me, and do correct me if I am wrong here, but you do seem to say that this is really not important.

People can die of depression, that is certainly true. I have had my share of that, and I know. That is why so many people try so hard to keep in touch, to offer games, films, talks, video meetings and support online in so many ways. New groups and societies spring up all over the place. If a high risk person gets infected, most of them die. But depression is an enemy you can fight, and a lot of people do. It is part of the whole pandemic.



‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Saturday, April 18, 2020 4:43 AM, WILLIAM A WENRICH <wawenri at msn.com> wrote:

> The protesters I have heard of are not concerned with standard social distancing. They were concerned about things that went far beyond that. For example, in Michigan the governor has restricted things that have nothing to do with slowing the spread of COVID-19. It makes no difference which products people buy in a store. It makes no difference if a person buys a gallon of paint or a gallon of milk. If a person is working in his garden in mask and gloves not near anyone else they are not a danger. In most people’s minds, the governor greatly overreached

> In Louisiana and North Carolina people were fined for sitting in parked cars with the windows up. Other places they have been arrested for standing outside abortion clinics and praying.

> Freedom of religion and the right of the people to peaceably assemble and petition the government for redress of grievances in important in the USA. I’m fairly sure that it is important most places.
> In one case, a pastor was arrested and was told that his rights had been suspended. The governor of Michigan, has said that the protests were a political rally and therefore illegal.
> I’ve said many times that different places need different reactions. One size fits all will not work.
> People keep saying that the social distancing is to save lives. Lowering the peak will help to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed but the area under the curves is the same.
> When I said that COVID-19 was not an apocalyptic pandemic like The Stand. I was right. The total expected deaths keep going down. I believe that keeping people locked up for a long period of time may well cause a depression. People die because of depressions.
>
> Christian, husband, father, granddaddy, son, American. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me.
> William A Wenrich
>
> From: Lois-Bujold lois-bujold-bounces at lists.herald.co.uk on behalf of Joel Polowin jpolowin at hotmail.com
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 8:46:15 PM
> To: lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk lois-bujold at lists.herald.co.uk
> Subject: Re: [LMB] OT: COVID-19 notes
>
> Tidsel tidsel at protonmail.com wrote:
>
> > I am not sure I follow this..Protesters against lock-down?
>
> Yes. People going out and protesting, en masse, against distancing
> restrictions.
>
> Some are doing so on the basis of defending their freedom from such
> restrictions. Some are what are now being referred to as "distancing
> deniers" -- that is, they deny the science regarding the effectiveness
> of distancing, or the need for it based on, for example, the risks
> posed by the disease.
>
> If they were getting themselves infected via such stunts, then just
> going off and not affecting anyone else as they got better or died,
> I could (with regret) shrug and say it was their right. "DAR for
> the WIN!", so to speak, to invoke a trace of on-topicness. But that
> isn't how it works, of course; they're going on to spread the disease
> to other people who are doing their best to avoid infection with the
> imperfect means available, and adding to the load in the hospitals.
>
> Joel
>
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